Pieter Levels Shuns Venture Capital to Scale Solo Tech Portfolio

Pieter Levels避开风投，独自扩展技术项目组合 这位自力更生的创始人指出，欧洲的监管负担扼杀了科技创新，但经济停滞终于正在迫使文化转向亲商业的加速主义。 在本期《Cheeky Pint》节目中，单打独斗的“独立黑客”Pieter Levels详细拆解了他精益的软件开发方法，讲述了他如何使用人工智能代替雇员来自动化运营Nomad List和Photo AI等庞大业务。他批评了传统风险投资的高烧钱文化，分享了关于全球投资的个人理财哲学，并探讨了扼杀欧洲创业活力的结构性监管。归根结底，这场对话突出了简单技术栈的长期生命力，以及保持灵活性与独立性所带来的丰厚个人回报。 Pieter Levels作为一名“独立黑客”和数字游民，完全依靠自己一人管理着年营收超过300万美元的软件业务组合。 (0:00) 2014年Stripe进军荷兰成为一个关键转折点，使得独立线上项目的便捷变现成为可能。 (0:00) Levels批评传统风投生态在没有用户的产品上大肆烧钱，主张在规模扩张前先验证想法并实现初步盈利。 (2:43) 通过在服务器上维护并运行70多个项目且不更新已有十年历史的PHP代码，Levels在留存互联网历史的同时持续获得被动收入。 (5:21) 尽管出于视野与安全的考虑极力推崇数字游民生活方式，但Levels也承认持续旅行会导致极度孤独，并使人脱离本土文化。 (7:51)

Serial entrepreneur Pieter Levels argues that solo bootstrapping and high-margin operational simplicity offer a sustainable alternative to venture capital, while contending that heavy regulation and risk aversion hobble European innovation. Bootstrapping Solopreneurship Versus the Venture Trap (2:43) Levels champions solo software development over traditional venture capital, citing his portfolio of self-managed projects that generate over $3 million in annual revenue, including Remote OK ($3.4 million), Nomad List ($700,000 ARR), and Photo AI ($600,000 ARR). He criticizes the venture ecosystem for normalizing capital burn, where startups raise tens of millions of dollars without working products or paying users. Instead, Levels advocates for validating product demand early and reaching $50,000 to $100,000 in monthly revenue before expanding operations. While Levels acknowledges that venture capital enables large-scale plays, he warns that accepting outside money creates an all-or-nothing dynamic. Institutional investment eliminates the option of operating a highly profitable, self-sustaining business owned entirely by the founder, binding entrepreneurs instead to the low-probability pursuit of unicorn valuations. Technical Longevity and Automation via Artificial Intelligence (5:21) Operational longevity and radical minimalism anchor Levels' technical philosophy. Rather than constantly rewriting infrastructure, he maintains older utilities on original stacks; for example, his commitment contract platform Go Effing Do It continues to run on decade-old PHP without code modifications, generating approximately $50 a month. Levels maintains that web URLs and digital history should be preserved rather than shuttered when revenue slows. To operate complex platforms without employees, Levels integrates automated artificial intelligence tools. He utilizes the GPT API to impartially moderate Nomad List's 40,000-member community by applying automated temporary mutes instead of manual bans. Furthermore, Levels notes an operational shift in traffic distribution, reporting that ChatGPT referral traffic surged from 4% to 20% across his sites within a single month, reducing reliance on conventional search engine optimization. Digital Nomad Realities and Distribution Through Audience (7:51) Having worked remotely across the globe since 2010, Levels encourages the digital nomad lifestyle but cautions against romanticizing it. While he views global travel as statistically safer than commonly perceived, he emphasizes the severe psychological friction of sustained nomadic life. Continuous dislocation erodes an individual's cultural grounding, resulting in acute periods of loneliness that can require years of deliberate effort to reconstruct. Levels attributes his commercial reach to sustained personal branding rather than traditional marketing departments. Over a decade, he published approximately 125,000 tweets, averaging 40 posts daily. This distribution channel enabled him to monetize pre-orders effectively, such as generating $50,000 in book sales prior to writing the manuscript, demonstrating the leverage an audience provides to solo founders. European Regulatory Paralysis and the Accelerationist Response (15:56) Addressing economic stagnation across Europe, Levels created the crowdsourced "EU/acc" (European accelerationism) initiative to document structural impediments to business growth. Contributors identified administrative red tape—ranging from corporate formation rules to pervasive website cookie mandates—as the chief obstacle suppressing regional talent. Structural hurdles are compounded by fragmented labor laws, making cross-border hiring within Europe far more complex than employing staff across United States jurisdictions. Levels and host John Collison also observe a cultural resistance to wealth creation and capital markets in Europe. Individual investors often exhibit home-country bias by purchasing local industrial equities rather than diversified, low-cost global indexes such as the S&P 500. Nevertheless, Levels expresses optimism that mounting economic pressure will force structural deregulation, asserting that systemic crises are often prerequisites for political reform. Levels remains committed to an autonomous lifestyle centered on coding and selective angel investments, such as Cursor, while leaving open whether Europe will enact the structural reforms needed to unlock broad startup competitiveness.

独立开发者 Pieter Levels 与 Stripe 联合创始人 John Collison 探讨了单人软件创业的商业可行性与运营哲学。Levels 认为，依托自动化工具与个人品牌，独立开发者无需风险投资即可建立高利润业务，同时他指出欧洲在创业监管、跨国用工与投资文化上存在深层体制障碍。 单人创业模式与对风险投资的审视 (0:00) Levels 凭借单人运营的多款软件项目实现了每年超过 300 万美元的收入，其中包括年营收 340 万美元的 Remote OK、年经常性收入（ARR）70 万美元的 Nomad List 以及 60 万美元 ARR 的 Photo AI。他倡导开发者在将月收入提升至 5 万至 10 万美元后再考虑扩张，反对风投机构在初创公司尚无用户时即注入 5000 万至 1 亿美元的盲目烧钱模式。Collison 亦认同在引入外部资金前应先编写代码并获取付费客户。 Levels 强调，接受风投资金会迫使创始人追逐胜率极低的“独角兽”地位，从而失去保有 100% 股权并享受千万美元年收入的自由。出于对保留互联网历史的坚持，他让上线过的 70 多个项目持续在服务器上运行，例如用 PHP 编写且十年未改动代码的承诺契约网站 Go Effing Do It，至今仍能每月产生约 50 美元收入。 AI 自动化运营与流量分发机制转变 (11:00) 自动化是 Levels 独自管理多项复杂业务的核心支撑。为了避免雇佣和管理团队，他接入 GPT API 作为 Nomad List 社区（拥有 4 万名成员）的中立调解机制。该系统在发生政治争吵时对用户实施短期禁言而非直接封禁，有效替代了传统的人工审核流程。 在获客渠道方面，Levels 透露来自 ChatGPT 的引荐流量在单月内从其总流量的 4% 攀升至 20%，增幅达到 5 倍，且其他网站也呈现类似趋势。他认为这种由 AI 驱动的流量分发有助于摆脱对传统搜索引擎优化（SEO）的依赖，使个人开发者能够将精力集中于产品本身的创新。 数字游民的现实代价与个人品牌壁垒 (7:51) 拥有十年全球旅居经验的 Levels 建议人们体验数字游民生活，但也打破了对该模式的过度浪漫化叙事。他坦言持续旅居会导致与母国基础文化断裂，带来强烈的孤独感，重建个人心理依托往往需要经历数年的艰难过程。 在获客与商业转化层面，Levels 的成功高度依赖其长期积累的个人品牌：他在十年内累计发布约 12.5 万条推文（日均约 40 条），这为其带来了显著的分销红利，甚至在专著尚未动笔前便实现了 5 万美元的预售额。同时，他也建议底层软件基础设施（如 Stripe）应警惕工程规模膨胀导致的复杂化，始终为独立开发者保留初始代码级的极简体验。 欧洲制度枷锁与 EU/acc 加速主义诉求 (15:56) 为应对欧洲弥漫的悲观情绪，Levels 发起了“欧洲加速主义”（EU/acc）倡议，其众包看板收录了数万条改进建议，其中排在首位的诉求是消除初创企业的监管壁垒。对话双方指出，欧洲不仅监管繁重，还缺乏跨国用工标准的协同统一，导致仅有 10 人的团队在不同成员国雇人时面临复杂的法律阻碍；而欧洲政坛缺乏既亲商又支持欧洲一体化的力量。 此外，两人探讨了欧洲普遍存在的“本土偏见”与视财富为负面的文化观念。Levels 观察到当地居民常因不信任全球市场而坚守本土股票或持有现金，最终因通胀蒙受损失。他主张大众应配置标普 500 等低成本指数基金，并认为当前欧洲经济面临的严峻考验反而可能成为倒逼体制打破监管藩篱、激发人才潜能的转折点。 Pieter Levels 验证了高度自动化、低运营成本的单人数字业务具备极强的盈利韧性，但该模式依赖于长期的个人品牌积累与严苛的技术自律。其对欧洲监管僵化及传统风投机制的批评，反映了独立技术创业者在追求商业自主与抗衡制度阻力之间的现实权衡。

[0:00] Pieter Levels: you kind of need to go big or bust [1:32] Pieter Levels: No, Dad, you don't understand. I need to make money on the internet. Just sign it. [1:32] John Collison's mother: Mr. Collison is doing his homework, and you need to stop calling me [2:43] Pieter Levels: A company with no users raises $50 million, $100 million, and you're like, 'What is this product?' [5:21] Pieter Levels: playing with other people's money [5:21] Pieter Levels: URLs shouldn't break [7:51] Pieter Levels: It was extremely lonely. [15:05] Airbnb host sign: Don't put it below 25 degrees because of regulation. [15:05] Pieter Levels: not a good situation [15:05] Pieter Levels: unacceptable [17:25] Pieter Levels: never waste a crisis [17:25] Pieter Levels: generally, the money in your bank account is how much value you added to society. [19:27] Pieter Levels: being run by engineers, not by people who actually used Stripe [21:23] Pieter Levels: faker [21:23] Pieter Levels: no clue

[0:00] I think it's actually good that it's going [0:01] so bad in Europe, [0:02] because it's almost like the patient is so sick— [0:05] Never waste a crisis. [0:06] The problem is, if you're a founder and you raise money, [0:09] you kind of need to go big or bust, right? [0:11] It's hard to stay in between. [0:13] I also work really hard, because I tweeted, [0:15] I think 125,000 times [0:16] over 10 years, so it's like, 40 tweets a day. [0:18] You've contributed so many brain cells [0:20] to spending time on X. [0:24] Pieter Levels, [0:24] one of the most prolific indie hackers and digital nomads, [0:27] whose businesses now do more than $3 million in revenue— [0:30] and it's just Pieter working on them. [0:33] Cheers. [0:37] I think you are maybe the most prominent indie hacker? [0:42] Nomad List, got to $700k in ARR, [0:45] Remote OK has gotten to $3.4 million in revenue, [0:48] Photo AI got to $600k in ARR. [0:51] And these are all just you. [0:53] Like, these are not startups that you have started, [0:54] these are just Pieter Levels productions. [0:58] You're also at the vanguard of the digital nomad thing. [1:01] You've lived in more than 40 countries [1:03] and 150 cities? [1:04] Yeah, I think so. [1:05] I've mostly just been working on my laptop [1:06] for the last decade, traveling around, [1:10] just making stuff, [1:12] making little creative projects that I needed [1:14] to solve my problems. [1:16] And then most of the time, nobody else needed [1:18] that problem solved. [1:20] But a few times, it worked, [1:21] And then, I mean, I used Stripe a lot, right? [1:24] When Stripe came to Holland— [1:25] back then I lived in Holland, it was 2014, I think— [1:28] I was like, "Oh, shit, now I can start making money." [1:31] and that was the year I started making money. [1:32] When I was a kid, I think I was 12 years old, [1:34] I was making websites too, [1:36] and I wanted to charge money on the internet. [1:39] And I remember signing up to Worldpay— [1:41] I think it was Worldpay—and there was a giant contract. [1:43] It was in America, and I lived in Holland, [1:45] I asked my dad to sign for it. [1:46] And my dad read [1:47] the whole contract, and it was like, [1:49] "You're liable for damages up to $100 million." [1:51] He was like, "What am I signing for?" [1:53] I'm like, "No, Dad, you don't understand." [1:54] "I need to make money on the internet. Just sign it." [1:56] And he signed it. We faxed it to America, [2:00] and I had a merchant account. I never sold anything. [2:04] Luckily, maybe, [2:04] because otherwise, we would be liable for damages. [2:07] I feel like this is a common thread amongst entrepreneurs [2:10] getting their parents to help them with things [2:11] they shouldn't do. [2:12] Patrick, at one point, got a demo of [2:15] a Sun Microsystems workstation. [2:17] Oh my god. Remember, these were [2:18] very high-end workstations. [2:20] And he just filled out the form and [2:22] got them, they came with a truck [2:24] and they unloaded it... Oh my god. [2:25] ...and he was playing with it. [2:26] And I just remember the Sun Microsystems rep [2:28] was calling the house and they were like, [2:31] "Is Mr. Collison interested in continuing with a purchase?" [2:35] And our mom was like, "Mr. Collison is doing his homework, [2:38] and you need to stop [2:38] calling me." They hadn't realized [2:40] that he was 12 years old at the time, [2:42] or whatever. Man, amazing. [2:43] Did you try to monetize projects [2:44] before you started building them [2:46] on YouTube or— No, because... [2:46] So what happened was, I was making music and I was DJing, [2:49] I was organizing nightclub nights in Holland, [2:52] UK and stuff, drum and bass music. [2:55] You're Irish, you know drum and bass. [2:56] Drum and bass, most people don't really know it, [2:58] but British people know, Irish people know it. [3:01] So, when YouTube started monetizing videos, [3:04] I was uploading my music already. [3:06] So I was one of the first YouTube monetizing people. [3:09] I was number one or number two in Holland [3:11] for a while, in the top channels. [3:13] But the thing is, I started making money, [3:14] like $1,000, and then $2,000, and then $8,000 per month, [3:17] a lot of money. And I was in university. [3:19] So it seems like you've done well [3:20] on this, kind of being a person on the internet. [3:22] How much of a partisan are you [3:25] on the topic of the indie hacker approach? [3:28] Because obviously, most of tech [3:31] doesn't run in the indie hacker way, [3:33] where, again, you're building multimillion-dollar [3:34] revenue businesses all by yourself. [3:37] Do you think way more people should be doing [3:39] the indie hacking thing? [3:40] I mean, I think the internet makes you partisan, right? [3:43] So I don't think [3:44] I've been partisan much, [3:45] but I think— [3:46] Until you got on X. [3:47] Yeah, well, X does help with it. [3:49] But you have to understand—2013, '14, [3:51] when I entered kind of the startup world, [3:54] there was barely any... There was no indie hacking, [3:56] there was no bootstrapping, almost, except Patrick McKenzie, [3:59] who you know well. [4:00] You would find investors, you would raise money, [4:02] you would grow fast, you would hire a lot of people, [4:03] you get a big office. [4:04] Remote didn't exist, remote work. So [4:08] compared to that, what's possible now? [4:10] There's alternatives possible now. [4:12] Yes. And you can make a lot [4:12] of money with this. [4:13] I don't think you can become a billionaire. [4:15] Maybe we will see that in the future. [4:16] So you think for talented engineers [4:19] who have a commercial brain, [4:23] and who are good at product... [4:25] ...they should at least seriously evaluate the path [4:28] of just building their own successful products [4:29] in the internet, like you? Yeah, I think... [4:31] Look, what I hate most about VC stuff [4:33] is when you see people burn money. [4:35] You probably hate this as well. [4:36] A company with no users raises $50 million, $100 million, [4:40] and you're like, "What is this product?" [4:41] Like, it doesn't have any traction and it's just hype. [4:44] We've all seen these startups. And they just disappear. [4:47] I think it's much more interesting— [4:50] and maybe you guys did the same with Stripe— [4:51] but validate first and build a business first, [4:55] and see if you get traction. Like, [4:56] get to $50k or a $100k a month. [4:58] No, look, I'm with you. [5:00] Despite the fact Stripe has obviously raised VC, [5:02] we just started writing code, [5:03] we got our first paying customer [5:05] way before we raised any money for the business... [5:07] Wow. ...and then it just [5:08] kind of grew and grew and grew. [5:09] And it's a little bit different [5:10] company in the financial services space. [5:12] You need to be well-capitalized [5:14] Yeah, but this is the thing. [5:15] It's natural. It's kind of organic, right? [5:16] Even if you raise money, you did it in an organic way, [5:18] and you only raise more when you see the growth coming. [5:21] Have you ever been tempted [5:22] to raise for one of your projects? [5:23] No. But a lot of VCs have been in my DMs, [5:26] and they want to invest. [5:26] And I think [5:29] because now I'm financially independent, [5:31] I've made a lot of money, [5:32] now I could do it, [5:33] because now I'm at a point where [5:36] it sounds fun to play with other people's money. [5:38] But also, in a serious way, [5:39] it sounds fun to go to a bigger thing. [5:44] I mean, that's something you typically say [5:45] after you've been a week in San Francisco, right? [5:47] You start talking like this. [5:48] But I'm not convinced yet. [5:50] But I think now it would be fun. for example. [5:52] But the problem is if you're a founder and you raise money, [5:55] you kind of need to go big or bust, right? [5:58] It's hard to stay in between. [5:59] You can't make $10 million a year. [6:01] You kind of need to make $100 million a year. [6:02] You kind of need to become a unicorn. [6:05] That's difficult, because the odds of that happening [6:09] are not super high. Like, it's a few percentage [points] maybe. [6:12] So most people don't get there, [6:14] and they do spend five years [6:15] or, I don't know, seven years of their 20s on that. [6:18] And that's something where, if you would be an indie, [6:20] and you would have a $10-million-a-year company... [6:24] It'd be great. ...and you have 100% ownership. [6:24] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Amazing. [6:25] You have so much money. [6:26] You're saying as a VC-funded startup, [6:27] you're kind of locking in the expectations for your company [6:30] in advance as to what's successful and what's not. [6:33] Yeah, [6:33] And it's quite liberating to just start building things. [6:35] Pieter Levels enterprises, broadly, [6:37] is making $3.1 million a year. Yeah. [6:40] And you've launched 70 projects? [6:43] Yeah. Probably more, [6:43] because I don't have the list, Yeah. [6:44] But it's like— [6:45] You've launched so many [6:46] that you lose track, but it's at least 70. [6:48] Do you shut them down if they're becoming too small [6:50] to be relevant? No, I try [6:52] to keep a lot of them running. [6:53] I like to keep the internet history existing. [6:56] It's sad to see all these websites disappear [6:58] Yes, yes. [6:59] I keep them on my [7:00] server running. URLs shouldn't break. [7:01] Yeah. [7:02] One product that still runs on Stripe is Go Effing Do It. [7:05] I don't know if I can curse, [7:06] but gofuckingdoit.com, [7:08] where, for example, you wanna quit smoking. [7:10] So you write, "I wanna quit smoking," [7:13] or "I don't wanna smoke." And the deadline is [7:15] December 1, 2025. [7:17] And then, you have to enter the email of your friend [7:19] and he checks it. [7:20] And then you enter your credit card with Stripe [7:23] and it creates a customer, [7:24] and it doesn't charge the customer yet. [7:26] And you set a price. So for example, $100. [7:28] And then on December 1, 2025, [7:30] your friend gets an email, "Did he smoke?" [7:33] And he says yes or no. [7:34] And if it's yes, you get charged [7:36] and I get the money, [7:37] And the product still works, [7:38] and it still makes, I think, $50 a month, [7:41] and I didn't change the code [7:43] in 10 years. [7:43] It's PHP, you know? [7:45] Yes, yes. [7:45] It still runs. So part of what you're doing [7:47] is you're creating all these businesses [7:48] that have actually pretty long lifetimes as well. [7:50] Yeah. [7:51] Who should try the digital nomad thing? [7:53] Who does it appeal to? [7:54] I think anyone. It doesn't matter if you're 20 [7:56] or 70 or whatever. [7:57] It's so interesting, because you change as a person also. [8:00] But I think, digital nomad, it's so cool, [8:01] because leaving your own country, [8:04] which I did... The first time, I did a study exchange program. [8:07] I went to Korea in 2010, I think, from university, [8:12] and I was like, "This is a completely different world." [8:14] I'd never left Europe before. [8:15] I went to France, you know Italy, [8:17] but there's neon signs, [8:19] and it's like... Far away places. [8:20] ...it's crazy. Yeah. [8:22] This changes you on such a fundamental level, [8:24] going to the other side of the world. [8:26] It's amazing. And it's way safer than you think. [8:28] Usually nothing happens. [8:29] I've never been robbed except in my hometown. [8:31] It was a burglary. So in 10 years of digital nomading, [8:34] nothing ever happened. [8:36] So, yeah, I think it completely expands your horizon. [8:38] There's nothing I can recommend as much [8:40] as for people to just go travel. And don't be scared, man. [8:42] There are always people who will help you. [8:44] If you don't speak the language, you can use your arms— [8:47] How did you make it [8:47] not be lonely, not knowing anyone [8:49] in all these places? It was extremely lonely. [8:50] Oh, okay. It just was lonely? [8:52] I was like, "This is amazing." [8:54] And then [8:54] you lose contact with the grounds of your own culture, [8:58] your home country. And everything's fine, [9:01] people are nice, [9:01] but you're like... [9:04] It fundamentally removes your foundational culture [9:07] at some point. [9:09] You become untethered. [9:10] Yeah, untethered. That's it. [9:11] And you have to rebuild it up. [9:12] And that's a psychologically taxing process. [9:14] It takes some years. [9:15] Yes. [9:16] What have you learned from Patio11? [9:19] Dude, amazing guy. What an inspiration. [9:21] So, you have to go in the time machine. [9:23] Back in 2013, or even earlier, [9:25] I'm reading Hacker News in university, [9:27] and I read two types of articles. [9:29] I read, "We're raising $40 million for a startup." [9:32] Back then Hacker News was full of raising, [9:34] it was special. [9:34] Now you don't see that anymore. [9:35] Now it was more tech. [9:36] And you'd read Patrick McKenzie, [9:38] "I made $60,000 this year with Appointment Reminder." [9:41] This site, which was like... [9:43] He would go to hair salons, I think, [9:44] and then sell his appointment reminder website. [9:46] It just reminded people to show up for their appointments. [9:49] Yes, like an SMS. It was the most [9:51] amazingly simple business. And I would read this post, [9:52] it was like, "This is amazing, this guy." [9:54] Like, $60K a year, that's big. We need to do this. [9:57] So seeing somebody making a cool, honest business... [9:59] And another guy, Jon Yongfook, [10:02] he was a few years after Patrick Mckenzie, [10:05] but he was also traveling as a nomad in Singapore and Asia, [10:08] and he was very well-dressed, [10:10] and he was making beautiful SaaS. [10:13] I was impressed [10:13] that they were making honest, cool, clean businesses. [10:16] Yes. And I wanna do [10:17] the same thing. [10:18] One thing I was reflecting on [10:18] is the fact that you are now a big brand, [10:23] in a way, the brand of Pieter Levels, [10:25] where... Well, no, [10:26] think about it. [10:27] You sold $50,000 of pre-orders for your book [10:29] before you had written any of the book. [10:31] You just said, "I might write a book, and buy it here," [10:33] and you got $50,000 of sales. [10:35] And so, to what extent does the recipe now work [10:40] because you are launching these products, [10:41] and if someone else was to build [10:43] the flight simulator [10:44] or if someone else [10:44] was to write the book... Yeah, I've seen these [10:45] replies, too. [10:46] ...then it wouldn't sell as well? [10:48] Yeah. Man. I think of course it's part of it, [10:50] but I also work really hard, [10:51] because I tweeted, I think [10:52] 125,000 times over 10 years, [10:54] so it's like 40 tweets a day. [10:56] You've contributed so many brain cells [10:57] to spending time on X. [10:59] Exactly. [11:00] Are you getting a lot of ChatGPT referrals? [11:02] Talk about this. It's amazing, yeah. [11:04] I've seen the growth. [11:05] ChatGPT, a month ago, was... [11:08] So, if you have the Google traffic, that's like 100%. [11:10] ChatGPT was, like, 4%. [11:13] Now it's 20%. [11:14] Wait. In the last month, [11:15] ChatGPT has gone from 4% [11:16] to 20% of your traffic? [11:17] In the last month. Yeah. [11:17] So it went 5x, and I checked other websites [11:19] it's the same story. [11:20] And I think it's beneficial for me, [11:21] because it's very hard for me, as a solo person, [11:25] to do SEO stuff. [11:28] And I hate SEO stuff. [11:29] I just want to make a cool product and a cool website [11:30] with a nice title and whatever. [11:32] You talk in your book about automation [11:34] being really important for making [11:36] the indie hacker recipe work. [11:38] Because I guess if you get drowned in operational work, [11:40] you're not gonna be able to do multiple projects, [11:41] you won't do as many shots on goal, everything like that. [11:43] So how much has the automation [11:46] of your business tasks improved [11:48] over the past 10 years, if at all? [11:51] Man, it's been amazing for me. [11:54] What have you automated? [11:54] So, for example, Nomad List, [11:57] it's a big website, you can visit, [11:58] you can find a place to live and work remotely. [12:00] But you can also join a community. [12:02] You can pay $100, [12:03] you join a community of meetups, [12:05] a chat group, all this stuff. [12:07] This chat group was hell to maintain. [12:10] I mean, you know from communities, it's so much drama. [12:12] I've had crazy stories. [12:12] Wait. Is the AI content moderating [12:14] the community now? [12:16] Exactly. It was very hard for me [12:18] to moderate this stuff, [12:19] and it was very hard for me to be impartial. [12:22] You have, like, politically [12:23] different sides. [12:24] And I feel I'm kind of in the middle, kind of neutral. [12:28] But the moment you ban one side, [12:30] they're like, "Oh, you're on that side." [12:31] And so with GPT, it's actually neutral. [12:35] It's really good. [12:36] I write down the rules of my chat group— [12:38] and it's 40,000 people— [12:40] and it doesn't ban anymore, [12:42] it just mutes people for a day or 10 minutes, or— [12:44] Like the debate moderators in the presidential debates. [12:48] Yes, essentially. It just muted them. [12:49] That's it. So, like, [12:51] I can either hire people, or I can just use the GPT API. [12:57] I don't like hiring because I need to manage people, [12:59] and I don't really like managing people [13:00] because it's not my thing. [13:01] I like to create things. [13:02] Well, in your book, you recommend that people build [13:04] for their own understanding of the problems they have. [13:08] Shouldn't you make an investment product? [13:09] You and Warren Buffet basically have the same views, [13:11] which is, a lot of money managers [13:13] and wealth management products... [13:15] Oh, come on. [13:15] ...are very bad because they're charging you [13:18] very high fees to invest in bad things. [13:20] And actually, what the vast majority of people should do [13:22] is buy a simple index, maybe the S&P 500 [13:24] or the MSCI World or something, [13:25] and then just leave their money there and don't touch it, [13:27] and especially don't sell it during drawdowns. [13:29] Yeah, so Vanguard. [13:30] Exactly. [13:30] But Vanguard already does that. [13:32] But there aren't good products for Europeans, [13:33] I feel like. [13:34] That's less common. [13:35] We buy them via Ireland. UCITS. [13:37] Sure, you do. But again, I feel like, you know, [13:39] if you want an idea for the next business, [13:40] I think good investment... There's a lot of money [13:42] in there. [13:42] It's a lot of money. ...good investment products [13:43] for Europeans. But then, you increase [13:44] the price. That's the problem. [13:45] Like, if you resell a Vanguard ETF [13:47] that has a 0.07% fee per year— [13:49] No, you need large scale [13:50] to make it work, Yeah, yeah. [13:51] And maybe that doesn't fit with the indie hacker [13:53] philosophy. Yeah. No, I think [13:53] it's a cool idea [13:54] because it helps people get richer and wealthier. [13:56] Yeah, and there's this home country bias [13:58] in stock purchasing, [13:59] where people in Germany... Oh my god. [14:00] My parents have this. ...buy German stocks. [14:01] This is crazy. [14:02] I told my parents, they're like— [14:04] Yeah, they're buying the Dutch stock market, probably. [14:06] Yeah, and I'm like, "You need to buy S&P 500 fund." [14:07] They're like, "No, [14:08] we're not gonna buy in America. [14:09] We're gonna buy Royal Dutch Shell." [14:11] I'm like, "Come on." [14:12] And they have all that money in Shell, in oil. [14:15] And then, "Have you seen Tesla, electric cars now?" [14:17] And they're like, "No, it's not gonna happen." [14:20] I think investment is very important. [14:22] Look, if you make money as any indie hacker has, [14:25] even as a VC founder, [14:26] it's very important to not spend all this money, [14:30] because you have a limited time in startups [14:32] to make money, I think... [14:33] ...and put this money in the market. [14:35] And it doesn't have to be only America. [14:36] I always talk about Asia, [14:37] and it's very hard to benefit in Asia [14:39] from the economy's rising [14:41] because the product market is not as efficient as in the US. [14:44] So you should definitely have the S&P 500. [14:46] But definitely, you can look at other ETFs [14:48] in the rest of the world. I've got some in China, [14:49] it's always never [14:51] doing well, [14:52] but at some point, [14:53] I'll be right, you know. [14:54] So yeah, [14:55] it's very important to invest your money well. [14:57] And most people [14:57] don't know personal finance. [14:59] Like, you don't get it in school. [15:02] You save money, but your money, your cash, disappears [15:05] the moment you have it. [15:05] Yes. Are you one of those people [15:07] who hacks the thermostat when you get to a hotel room? [15:10] I've tried, but I've never succeeded. [15:11] I also have failed. [15:12] I've watched the YouTube videos. [15:13] But it's always [15:15] some different model. [15:16] Siemens. [15:18] I think they're wise to such people, [15:19] Like, they make it hard to override them now. [15:21] This air conditioning problem, [15:22] it's such a big problem here. [15:23] We need people in the comments to teach us [15:24] how to override the hotel thermostats, [15:26] because the ones that are set to, like, [15:28] 72 degrees Fahrenheit, [15:29] or 22 degrees Celsius in Europe... [15:31] I mean, that should be— [15:32] I mean, how many times do you get back to Europe? [15:34] Often, right? [15:34] Often, yeah. [15:36] It's a massive problem. [15:37] The European hotels and air conditioning, [15:39] it's not a good situation. [15:40] No, but it's Airbnbs, too. [15:42] My friend went to an Airbnb in Italy, [15:44] and it said, "Don't put it below 25 degrees [15:46] because of regulation." [15:47] It's like, this is unacceptable. [15:49] And all the studies show, like, [15:51] look at Lee Kuan Yew in Singapore... [15:53] For sleep, you actually need it pretty cold, yeah. [15:53] You need it really cold. [15:54] The sleep quality gets so good. [15:56] We're talking about European air conditioning. [15:58] You've talked about the EU accelerationism movement. [16:02] What is required for EU accelerationism? [16:05] So I think it was two years ago or one year ago, [16:08] I saw Beff Jezos, who's Guillaume Verdon. [16:12] He made e/acc, which is effective accelerationism, [16:14] which is like, "Let's accelerate America again." [16:16] Like, it's been a very depressing time, [16:18] especially with Covid. [16:19] Let's look at the benefits of technology [16:20] and AI for the future, [16:22] and I thought, "That's amazing. [16:24] We need to do the same for Europe," so I did EU/acc. [16:27] Like, let's do this for Europe. [16:28] Because Europe has the same kind of depressing, [16:31] kind of down vibe about the future. [16:32] And I understand, because there are a lot of problems, [16:34] it's not an easy life for a lot of people. [16:36] So that got a lot of traction. [16:38] And I crowdsourced this bug board [16:41] where everybody could submit their ideas [16:43] for how to save Europe, how to fix Europe. [16:45] And tens of thousands of people submitted ideas, [16:48] and then they up upvoted each other's ideas and stuff. [16:50] I think number one is just, like, [16:51] remove the regulatory burden for new businesses. [16:53] Yeah. [16:54] And there's other stuff, like remove [16:55] the cookie banner and stuff. [16:57] and I hope it'll be easier in Europe [16:58] to start a business, run a business... [17:00] Yes. [17:01] ...As easy as it is in America. [17:03] I think there's so much... [17:06] Nobody doubts European talent or intelligence, [17:10] It's cool, smart, ambitious people. [17:12] But there's a ceiling for them. [17:15] They can't go higher [17:16] because they're getting pushed down by governments, [17:17] by regulation. [17:19] And it's like, what are you doing European countries? [17:21] You have amazing people. [17:23] You could compete easily. [17:25] Yeah. I think there's kind of two things. [17:26] One is where the regs are just bad. [17:29] And the second is where the regulations [17:30] are not standardized, [17:32] where employment law [17:34] is really annoyingly different across European countries. [17:37] So if you're a 10-person startup [17:38] and you employ people across Europe, [17:40] it's actually really cumbersome. [17:42] Whereas in the United States, that's quite easy. [17:44] Yeah. so the problem of Europe is...it's very funny. [17:46] You have all these different countries, [17:48] and you have the left side [17:51] of the political spectrum are not very pro-business, [17:54] they're more for regulation and for protecting people, [17:56] and the climate change and stuff. [17:58] And then you have the right side, which is pro-business, [18:01] but they're also nationalists. [18:03] But the problem is, what we need is pro-business [18:06] and federal Europe. [18:07] Like you need to be pro-Europe. [18:08] Yeah. Not nationalist, [18:11] and you need to be pro-business. So it doesn't exist. [18:13] So it's like, [18:14] where do you start? [18:15] I think it's actually good that it's going so bad [18:17] in Europe now, [18:18] because it's almost like the patient is so sick— [18:21] Never waste a crisis. [18:22] Yeah. Finally, Europeans are like, [18:26] "Maybe we should do something?" [18:28] Two years ago, [18:28] when I would tweet about this, they said, [18:30] "Stop talking bad about Europe. [18:31] It's going great here." [18:33] And now they're like, "Okay, [18:34] maybe we need to do something." [18:36] What would you highlight as the ideas that need fixing? [18:40] I think the problem is if there are not a lot [18:44] of opportunities in Europe for people to get jobs [18:47] or start businesses, [18:48] then they're gonna look down on Americans [18:50] getting rich with these big businesses, [18:52] because they're jealous. Europeans are jealous. [18:55] And you need to change this idea that business is bad, [18:59] that getting rich is bad. [19:01] Getting rich is simply a representation [19:03] of your added value to the world economy, in most cases. [19:06] Of course, there are edge cases. [19:08] Generally, the money in your bank account [19:09] is how much value you added to society. [19:13] And in Europe, that completely does not... [19:17] They really think different. [19:17] In America, you get much more respect [19:19] for being an entrepreneur. [19:21] But I would say, don't be afraid of money. [19:23] Money is a tool in this world [19:26] to change the world. [19:27] If you were running Stripe, what would you fix? [19:32] I think it's going really well recently. [19:34] I think it wasn't going well after Covid. [19:37] It was a few years where [19:39] the API was getting more and more complicated. [19:41] We all complained about it. [19:43] It felt like it was being run by engineers, [19:45] not by people who actually used Stripe. [19:48] Like, illogical defaults on the API. [19:51] One time, I had this bug, [19:53] and it was from the Stripe API because it changed, [19:55] and it didn't create a customer anymore. [19:57] Everybody was a guest. [19:58] I was like, "Why would I want people to be a guest? [20:01] I can't even curate them as a customer anymore." [20:02] Those kind of things. [20:04] But now it seems much better, [20:05] and it seems like sanity has returned. [20:08] But it's scary, and it must be scary for you, [20:09] because you're running a big company. [20:11] It's very hard to manage a company from small to big [20:15] and not become corporate. [20:18] Of course, you're always corporate [20:19] because you need to do B2B sales. [20:20] But you need to keep the original Stripe mentality [20:24] of, like, simple, right? Stripe JS, [20:26] it was one line of code you would add to your page, [20:28] and you had a payment button, you know? [20:30] Keeping that is so important, [20:32] keeping the original soul of the company. [20:34] And I think you're doing a great job. [20:35] Because essentially, I don't wanna go into Stripe [20:37] to do anything. [20:37] I want to go there to see how much money I make, [20:39] and I wanna go back to my coffee [20:41] and code a little bit. [20:42] I see all these new features on Stripe, [20:44] making workflows and stuff, [20:45] and I think it's very cool, [20:46] but I don't have time to do this stuff [20:48] because it's not [20:48] that important for me. [20:49] I think our perspective is, you should be able [20:51] to get started with anything instantly. [20:56] You shouldn't even need to integrate an API. [20:57] You should just be able to send a Payment Link, [20:59] something like that. Exactly. That's amazing, [21:00] I'm always [21:00] saying to people that [21:02] generally, people will not even want to start [21:03] by integrating the API, [21:04] they'll want to start by sending people [21:06] to a hosted page— [21:06] Yeah, that's what I do now [21:08] like a Payment Link. [21:08] But you will, over time... We think [21:10] the workflow engine is really cool, [21:11] because if you want [21:12] to build something complex, [21:13] you don't have to build it yourself. [21:14] But if someone is starting with the workflow engine... [21:17] Exactly. ...then something's gone horribly wrong. [21:18] You know what I mean? I think the challenge [21:19] is exposing them slowly [21:21] to all the stuff that's possible. [21:22] Exactly [21:23] Last question. [21:23] If we're back here in five years, [21:26] will things be similar, [21:28] where you've worked on a bunch of projects [21:30] that are working really nicely? [21:32] Will things be different, [21:32] where maybe you've sold a few of the projects? [21:34] Maybe you've started a VC-funded startup, [21:36] and raised a million dollars [21:37] from SoftBank. That would be, like... [21:38] Exactly. [21:39] But I'm just curious, what does the next five years hold? [21:42] Man, I have no clue. [21:44] It would be so funny if you become VC. [21:46] I've been starting to invest, [21:48] and every time I invest, [21:49] I feel bad, [21:51] because I feel like [21:52] a faker, you know? [21:54] But I invested in Cursor, for example, [21:57] very nice. [21:58] That seems like that that'll do okay for you. [22:00] Well, who knows? [22:02] But yeah, it's fun to... [22:03] I think you need to be [22:05] a little bit flexible with your neurons, [22:07] and you can change your ways a little bit. [22:10] And it's interesting to try different stuff. [22:14] But, yeah, I'm really enjoying life with my girlfriend now. [22:17] We're still traveling a lot. It's fun. [22:19] We meet all these cool people here, [22:20] and I want that to continue. [22:25] I'm just very happy. [22:26] I'm every day grateful to be able to live this life, [22:29] and it's so good. So thank you. [22:31] Thanks for coming by. [22:32] Thank you for having me.