Scott Galloway Blames Big Tech and Gerontocracy for Youth Crisis

Scott Galloway将青年危机归咎于大型科技公司与老人政治 社交媒体算法与系统性经济变迁更有利于年长的资产所有者，却让年轻男性陷入孤立、财务衰退以及诱发强迫症的恶性循环。 在本期节目中，Scott Galloway阐述了一套现代“男性法则”，其核心是成为能够为社会创造剩余价值的供养者、保护者和繁衍者。他为年轻男性提供了一份聚焦于身体健康、财务自主与社区参与的三大支柱战术指南，以克服现代数字孤立与设备成瘾。本次讨论探讨了年轻男性面临的重重危机——包括教育领域的系统性偏见、竞争激烈的择偶市场，以及垄断代际财富的老人政治——同时强调了结构化男性导师机制和强制性国家服役的迫切需求。 实现真正的成熟与积极的男子气概，需要超越个人利益，为家庭和社区提供保护、稳定与剩余价值。 (6:18) 让年轻男性进入同龄人群体前8%的三大支柱战术指南包括：每周健身三次、每周工作30小时，以及每月参与三次群体活动或志愿服务。 (16:33) 市值高度集中于少数大型科技公司催生了算法生态系统，该生态使年轻男性陷入孤立，并以激发社会愤怒和获取广告收入为优化目标。 (26:34) 约会与择偶市场数据显示出显著的性萧条，30岁以下男性中仅有三分之一处于恋爱关系中，而30岁以下女性这一比例为三分之二。 (49:02) 男性与女性力量的融合与结盟，而非相互怨恨，才是经济与社会进步的主要历史驱动力。 (50:58)

Scott Galloway and Andrew Huberman argue that young men face severe economic, social, and psychological distress driven by upward generational wealth extraction, predatory tech algorithms, and cultural alienation. They contend that reversing this decline requires young men to adopt a personal code of provision, protection, and surplus service, paired with structural policy reform and active male mentorship. A Masculine Code of Provision, Protection, and Service (6:18) Galloway outlines a positive framework for masculinity centered on the roles of provider, protector, and procreator, arguing that young men need an ethical "code" to consistently make sound decisions. Crucially, Galloway asserts that true maturity requires producing "surplus value"—the stage in adulthood where an individual contributes more in financial support, labor, and emotional care than they consume, deliberately choosing service over attention. Rejecting cultural extremes, Galloway and Huberman critique both the far-right tendency to equate masculinity with cruelty and the far-left dismissal of traditional masculine traits as toxic. Instead, they advocate for a balance of physical strength, initiation, and emotional grace, noting that real-world male protective valor remains vital, as evidenced by Carnegie Hero Fund data where men received 75 of 83 recent bravery awards. Generational Wealth Imbalances and Structural Economic Disadvantage (116:26) Galloway highlights macroeconomic policies that systematically transfer wealth from young citizens to affluent older generations. Historical data indicates that the average 70-year-old today is 72% wealthier than a 70-year-old was 40 years ago, whereas a 25-year-old today is 24% less wealthy than their historical counterpart. Galloway labels his demographic a "vampire generation," noting that over 40% of federal spending goes to seniors through programs like Social Security, while young earners shoulder the cost through regressive payroll tax caps, high housing costs, and rent without benefiting from capital gains and mortgage write-offs. Because wealth is the single strongest statistical predictor of human longevity—evidenced by a 12-year lifespan gap between the top and bottom income deciles in the United States—Galloway argues that this unaddressed economic deficit represents a moral crisis that actively deprives the younger generation of health, marriage opportunities, and future stability. Algorithmic Traps, Neurological Compulsion, and Regulatory Solutions (66:03) Big tech platforms are characterized as commercial engines designed to monetize human attention by deliberately amplifying outrage and anxiety. Huberman reframes compulsive smartphone usage away from simple "dopamine hits" to an induced clinical obsessive-compulsive loop, wherein repetitive phone-checking fails to relieve the underlying anxiety that triggers it. Huberman notes that the brain's anger circuitry does not naturally attenuate or experience satiety, allowing platforms to keep users continuously stimulated by conflict. To counter the resulting isolation of young men, Galloway proposes three concrete regulatory measures: aggressive antitrust enforcement to break up monopolies like Meta and Alphabet, revoking Section 230 protections when platforms use engagement-driven algorithms to curate content, and strictly curbing digital access and monetization for minors. Overcoming Dating Paralysis, Isolation, and Absent Mentorship (46:36) The speakers challenge pervasive modern myths that paralyze the dating market. Galloway dismisses the male fear of professional ruin from respectful romantic approaches, while pointing out that female fears of stranger violence on dates are magnified by sensationalist media; statistically, a man is 16 times more likely to die by suicide (with 40,000 male suicides annually) than to murder a partner. Young men are urged to tolerate rejection—treating "no" as an essential metric of effort—and build authentic social skills rather than retreating into the synthetic isolation of pornography. Finally, the conversation underscores the urgent need for male mentorship to counteract record rates of single-parent households, where fatherless boys face elevated risks of incarceration over college graduation. Galloway advocates for mandatory national service programs, similar to models in Israel and Singapore, to rebuild cross-class fraternity, civic duty, and personal resilience. While Galloway and Huberman present cultural and policy recommendations—such as universal national service, tech antitrust enforcement, and personal codes of surplus contribution—the conversation leaves unresolved how to overcome the political obstacles posed by deep-pocketed corporate lobbying and older voting blocs resistant to entitlement and tax reform.

纽约大学教授Scott Galloway与主持人Andrew Huberman指出，当代年轻男性正陷入代际财富失衡、数字算法孤立以及角色认同缺失的深层危机；要走出困境，社会需推行科技反垄断与代际利益重构，而男性自身则应确立以供给、保护和创造“盈余价值”为核心的行为准则。 积极男性行为准则与盈余价值 (6:18) Galloway提出，迷茫的年轻男性需要一套清晰的行为准则。他将健康男性特质提炼为“供给者”、“保护者”与“繁衍者”三个维度。供给不仅指经济支撑，也包括在伴侣收入更高时主动分担家庭劳动；保护的核心则是建立力量以让身边的人获得安全感，聚敛财富仅仅是实现保护的工具而非终极目的。 在此基础上，Galloway强调真正的成熟标志是超越单纯的功利索取，转向创造“盈余价值”（Surplus Value）——即个人对社会、就业和税收的贡献必须超过其消耗的资源。他结合自身经历指出，人生真正的充实感来自于承担责任、给予多于索取的关爱，并长期处于净利他与服务他人的状态。 宏观代际财富转移与青年生存挤压 (116:26) Galloway批评当下的代际资源分配机制正系统性地向老年群体倾斜。数据显示，如今70岁人群的财富比40年前同龄人高出72%，而25岁年轻人的财富却缩水24%。全美每年约有1.3万亿美元的社会保障资金流向历史上最富有的老年阶层，联邦预算中40%（预计十年内达50%）的开支倾斜向65岁以上群体，导致儿童与青年的公共投入严重不足。 这种经济失衡进一步演变为健康与寿命差距。Galloway指出财富是决定寿命的首要统计指标，美国底层10%收入群体的预期寿命比顶层10%少12年。在房贷与资本利得税优惠偏向年长资产持有者的同时，仅依赖高税率劳动收入的年轻一代不仅背负着巨额国家赤字，更陷入抑郁与焦虑高发的生存困境。 算法捕获、愤怒回路与科技垄断监管 (66:03) 对谈将大型科技平台视为年轻男性孤立与失能的重要推手。科技巨头利用算法最大化占用人类注意力，催生出大量在30岁时面临肥胖、抑郁且缺乏现实社交技能的男性群体。Huberman从神经生物学角度指出，高频使用手机并非单纯的多巴胺刺激，而是诱发了一种“获得性强迫症”（induced OCD），强迫性刷屏无法缓解焦虑反而不断强化回路；同时，大脑的愤怒机制缺乏自然的满足中止点，导致算法驱动的极端情绪能够无休止地调动多巴胺分泌。 针对科技巨头，Galloway主张采取三项强力监管措施：第一，推行反垄断分拆，例如剥离Meta旗下的Instagram与Google旗下的YouTube，打破数据垄断；第二，废除或修改《通信规范法》第230条对算法推荐内容的全面责任豁免，要求其承担与传统媒体等同的法律审查；第三，遏制科技平台对立法者的政治游说，设立保护未成年人心理健康的法治底线。 破除婚恋市场神话与重构两性同盟 (49:02) 对谈通过具体数据反驳了互联网上蔓延的两性对立叙事。针对部分男性担忧得体搭讪会招致社会性毁灭的观点，Galloway指出只要尊重女性意愿，遭遇拒绝属于正常社交损耗，不应借此滑向非自愿单身（incel）或逃避至网络色情。针对部分女性因恐惧恶性暴力而放弃恋爱的网络言论，数据显示美国每年约2500名女性遭杀害，绝大多数为熟人作案，约会遇害概率极低；相比之下每年有4万名男性自杀，男性约会后自残的概率在统计上是其伤害伴侣的16倍。 Galloway与Huberman呼吁终止性别对立，重建两性合作同盟。女性经济独立促使择偶门槛提升，这要求男性主动提升自我并承担人际交往中的自尊风险，而非退缩进虚拟替代品中怨天尤人。理想的男性特质应介于极右翼的粗暴控制与极左翼对雄性特质的全盘否定之间，兼具危机时的担当能力与日常生活中的得体尊重。 缺失的男性导师与强制国家服务构想 (79:50) 在成长支持层面，对谈指出男性导师缺位是导致年轻男孩迷失的关键原因。美国单亲家庭比例居高不下，缺乏成年男性榜样的男孩在统计上面临显著更高的入狱风险与更低的大学毕业率。然而受社会防备心理影响，纽约等地申请成为志愿导师的男性人数仅为女性的三分之一。Huberman与Galloway结合自身早年经历强调，成年男性的适时引导对年轻人的品行、心智与职业启蒙具有不可替代的纠偏作用。 为从根本上塑造青年一代的责任感，Galloway提议推行普遍的“强制国家服务”。他以以色列和新加坡为例指出，具有强制纪律与集体目标的制度能够打破家庭阶层背景的壁垒，让年轻人在高要求的体能与协作任务中获得胜任感与使命感，是解决西方青年孤独感与精神抑郁的有效解药。 虽然对谈为缓解年轻男性的心理与经济困境勾勒了兼顾个人修养与宏观改革的方案，但诸如限制高收入老人社保、拆分万亿级科技巨头以及推行强制国家服务等制度主张，在缺乏政治共识与强大老龄游说集团阻挠的现实环境下，其实际推行难度依然巨大。

[0:00] Scott Galloway: The goal is no [11:15] Scott Galloway: Are you optimizing for attention or service? [16:33] Scott Galloway: Unlock your phone [79:50] Scott Galloway: You don't give a [__] how rich their father is. All you want to know is, is this person good at what they do? [93:45] Scott Galloway: As a father, all you really want... you just really want conversation with your kids [106:13] Scott Galloway: high all day long on their own anger and frustration [110:20] Richard Reeves: invaluable in a shipwreck but acceptable at a dance [132:14] Scott Galloway: a hedge fund with classes [132:14] Scott Galloway: You're not qualified, but you're a son of California. We're going to give you a shot. [136:00] Scott Galloway: in the club doing rails of ketamine and champagne [139:15] Scott Galloway: biology is undefeated [147:34] Sy Cero: When there's more buyers for the stock and fewer sellers, the stock goes up. [149:30] Scott Galloway: white noise [150:25] Scott Galloway: the more outrageous you are, the more ratings you get

[0:00] And this is the goal. The goal is no [0:03] because you're going to get nos. And [0:05] then I'm going to call you after you've [0:07] made the approach. You're going to text [0:08] me, I did an approach. Did you get a no? [0:10] Yeah, I got a no. That's exactly the [0:12] point. That's the goal. Cuz everyone you [0:14] admire, everyone you think has killed [0:16] it. The only thing I can guarantee you [0:18] is there were a ton of nos. than getting [0:21] to one of the top 10 podcasts in the [0:22] world, getting to a person as a partner [0:24] who's higher character and hotter than [0:26] you, getting to make more money than you [0:28] would have ever guessed that person [0:29] would have made. The only thing that got [0:31] them there was the willingness in the [0:33] endurance to re to anticipate no. [0:36] Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, [0:38] where we discuss science and [0:40] science-based tools for everyday life. [0:45] I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor [0:47] of neurobiology and opthalmology at [0:50] Stanford School of Medicine. My guest [0:52] today is Scott Galloway. Scott Galloway [0:54] is a professor at New York University's [0:57] Stern School of Business and one of the [0:59] world's leading public educators on [1:01] intelligent life design, including [1:03] finances, relationships, and as today's [1:05] conversation also covers, on the [1:07] socopolitical landscape. Today we mainly [1:09] talk about masculinity and what men [1:12] young and old and everything in between [1:14] are facing today in terms of their roles [1:16] to take in work, in relationships, and [1:18] their health. And today we don't just [1:20] review the data. You'll hear statistics. [1:22] So Scott is very grounded in [1:23] quantitative data, which is important, [1:25] but he also shares several clear [1:27] actionable steps that you can take daily [1:29] to ensure that you're making progress in [1:31] work and relationships and finances. We [1:34] also get into a bit of debate or more [1:36] about things like alcohol, the [1:38] benevolence or lack thereof of big tech [1:40] and social media. And we talk a lot [1:42] about the male female dynamics in terms [1:44] of the consequences of single bomb homes [1:46] and divorce, but just generally male [1:47] female dynamics. So while today's [1:49] episode does include a lot of [1:51] exploration of different topics that [1:52] frankly I didn't anticipate, it's also [1:55] very proactive. Scott delineates the [1:57] things that you can do and frankly [1:58] should do each day. These aren't just [2:00] lists or hacks, but effective tools that [2:03] come from knowledge, data, his deep [2:05] thinking, and that reflect the landscape [2:07] we are in now. I'm very grateful that [2:10] Scott took the time for this [2:11] conversation. You'll see that we agree [2:12] on many things. We disagree on several. [2:15] He's a very deep thinker, extremely [2:17] smart, obviously. He also cares about [2:20] people. That comes through over and over [2:22] again. And he's extremely generous today [2:24] on your behalf with indeed tough love [2:27] knowledge. Before we begin, I'd like to [2:29] emphasize that this podcast is separate [2:31] from my teaching and research roles at [2:32] Stanford. It is however part of my [2:34] desire and effort to bring zero cost to [2:36] consumer information about science and [2:38] science related tools to the general [2:40] public. In keeping with that theme, [2:42] today's episode does include sponsors. [2:44] And now for my discussion with Scott [2:46] Galloway. Scott Galloway, welcome. [2:48] >> Thanks, man. It's good to see you. [2:50] Actually, I was nervous driving over [2:52] here. I I I like you and respect you and [2:54] I was think I was trying to figure out [2:56] why I was nervous. I really want to I [2:58] want to do well today. And the last time [2:59] I had this feeling was when I was going [3:02] to do Rich Rolls podcast. I really like [3:05] like you. I really like and respect Rich [3:06] and I remember thinking I had that same [3:08] feeling. I wanted to do well. Anyways, [3:10] good to be here. [3:11] >> Oh man. Well, great to have you here. [3:12] It's funny you say that cuz um you know [3:14] I was coming here and I was thinking, [3:15] yeah, look up to Scott. Like I respect [3:18] him and we've had one conversation prior [3:20] to this that ended up being quite [3:22] extended conversation. And I'm I told [3:24] Rob right before coming in here, our [3:26] producer, I'm super fired up toss to [3:28] learn from you and just sit down and [3:30] chat with you. So [3:31] >> I actually am going to do something [3:33] differently this podcast than any other [3:35] podcast, which is the question I'm about [3:37] to ask or the kind of thing I'm about to [3:39] pose, I normally would do off camera. [3:41] >> Okay. [3:41] >> I'm do it on camera, which is coming in [3:44] here today. It occurred to me that we as [3:46] a How old are you? [3:48] >> I'm going to be 62 in November. [3:49] >> 62. You look great, man. you can share [3:51] what you're doing if we get the time. [3:54] Um, fitness wise, I'm 50 and the risk we [3:58] run into, I realize, is that when I was [4:01] 16, 20, 30, etc., yes, I wanted [4:05] knowledge. [4:05] >> Mhm. [4:06] >> Maybe even wisdom from elders, but I [4:09] also knew with certainty that they [4:11] didn't understand a thing about what it [4:13] was like to be that age at that time. So [4:16] I realize that as much as we might think [4:18] we know, we don't know what it's like to [4:20] be 16, 25, 30, 40 year old men, and [4:25] we'll also talk about women today, but [4:26] probably mostly men [4:28] >> in 2026. And so how do we reconcile that [4:32] in a discussion like this? I just wanted [4:34] to ask you, how do you think about that? [4:35] because so much of your content and what [4:38] you're teaching out there is about [4:39] timeless truths, but there's also a lot [4:42] of things that are happening now, not [4:44] just pain points, but maybe [4:45] opportunities that I don't know how do [4:48] you think about [4:50] do we really know like how how should we [4:53] pass along information in a way that's [4:54] truly useful to people because that's [4:55] what obviously we both want this to be [4:57] about. Well, just what you said, you [5:00] can't you can't fully relate to a 16 if [5:02] you're not 16 years old and know what [5:04] they're going through. And what you [5:05] know, you you guys are skateboarders. [5:07] And when I was 16, I got home and it was [5:10] either watch cartoons until my mom got [5:12] home or it was take risks and go out and [5:14] find friends and and do things. And now [5:18] there's so much temptation at home [5:19] between big tech and having a casino in [5:22] your pocket and Netflix in your pocket [5:23] and porn in your pocket. it's just hard [5:25] to relate to what they go through. I [5:28] think the first thing is just [5:29] acknowledging, you know, you don't know [5:31] what you don't know and then turning to [5:33] data because there are people who look [5:35] at the data and I try to counter my [5:37] biases or my, you know, my uninformed [5:42] thesis with data and so I try to find [5:46] good people, good research and inform [5:48] it. Also, it helps. I have 15 and [5:50] 18-year-old sons. I ask them a lot. I [5:53] observe them a lot. I hang out with them [5:54] a lot and you start to pick up on stuff. [5:57] But I think the first is just being open [5:58] to people pushing back and recognizing [6:02] unfortunately every once in a while in [6:03] the comment when someone points [6:04] something out and going if it really [6:06] hurts and it's upsetting it's usually [6:07] because they're right and they found [6:09] some soft tissue and they've pressed on [6:11] it. So and I try to be open to learning [6:12] and and you know just acknowledging when [6:16] I I got it wrong. What do you think are [6:19] the could be three, could be five, could [6:21] be 10 things that all males should [6:25] strive to check the boxes on in order to [6:27] have a good life, not just to, you know, [6:31] be great in some particular role, but [6:34] like what are what are the [6:35] macronutrients in your opinion of [6:38] becoming a healthy, happy, fulfilled [6:41] male? [6:42] >> I think every person, not just every [6:43] man, needs a code. And that is you're [6:45] going to be faced with hundreds of [6:46] decisions each day and you want to make [6:48] generally speaking a higher proportion [6:50] of good decisions than the peer group. [6:51] Right? So what helps is a code. Some [6:54] people get that code from religion, the [6:56] military. There are really strong family [6:58] connections. I actually got my first [7:00] kind of code from my first job there. I [7:02] worked at Morgan Stanley. There was just [7:03] a certain level of professionalism. I [7:05] got code from sports at UCLA. Uh but I I [7:10] wonder there's so many lost men right [7:11] now. I wonder if masculinity can be a [7:13] code or some sort of aspirational form [7:15] of masculinity where people born as [7:17] males might have an easier time leaning [7:19] in. And I should also say that I don't [7:22] think masculinity or femininity are [7:23] sequestered to people born as males or [7:25] females. I'm drawn to men who are more [7:27] feminine as friends. My close friends [7:29] kind of take care of me and are more [7:30] nurturing. But I think for young men, if [7:33] they feel like they can lean into some [7:35] positive masculine attributes that it [7:37] could serve as a code. So I loosely [7:39] break it down into three very reductive [7:41] qualities and that is the first is to be [7:44] a provider. I'm not talking about the [7:46] way the world is but the way the world [7:48] should be. I think every young man [7:49] should have a plan and have an [7:50] assumption that at some point he will [7:52] have to be the economic lead or provider [7:54] for for his family. Sometimes that means [7:57] getting out of the way of your partner [7:59] who's better at that whole money thing. [8:01] Sometimes it means providing more [8:02] domestic or emotional support and labor [8:05] if your partner is accelerating [8:07] economically. When my partner had a kid, [8:09] she was working at Goldman Sachs. She [8:10] was making more money than me. I was a [8:12] new academic at NYU. I was making [8:14] $160,000 living in New York, which is [8:17] may sound like a lot of money, but it [8:18] wasn't. And she was making substantially [8:20] more. So, I tried to pick up slack and [8:22] and and provide more labor at home and [8:24] take charge of our finances. But I think [8:26] at the outset, trying to find a plan to [8:29] be economically relevant in a capitalist [8:31] society is really important because [8:33] whether we like to admit it or not, a [8:35] male from a self-esteem standpoint, from [8:37] a sexual currency standpoint, from the [8:39] esteem of the tribe or the society is [8:42] going to be disproportionately evaluated [8:44] based on your economic viability. So [8:46] from an early age, try and have a plan. [8:48] You may not have to stick to that plan. [8:50] I'm not saying you got to go to Harvard [8:51] and go to work at Goldman Sachs, but [8:53] maybe you're going to go to trade [8:55] school, learn how to install energy [8:56] efficient HVAC, but you just need a [8:58] plan. You be moving towards something. [9:00] The second is protector. If you think [9:03] about the most masculine jobs, fireman, [9:05] cop, military, the notion is you develop [9:07] skills and strengths such you can [9:09] protect others. And the most, if you [9:11] will, manly, masculine, satisfied I ever [9:14] feel is at night when I feel as if my [9:17] family feels protected. The kids are [9:18] asleep, my partner feels loved and [9:20] supported, and I've I've been able to [9:23] hopefully through partnership, through [9:25] economic valuability, been able to [9:26] provide a warm, comfortable life for [9:29] them so they can focus on the things [9:31] that are important to them. And I think [9:33] unfortunately a lot of men that we [9:35] should look up to, whether it's the [9:36] president, I apologize for getting [9:37] political, or the wealthiest man in the [9:40] world who are naturally going to be seen [9:42] as male role models, they seem to have [9:44] skipped the protection part. that the [9:46] whole shooting match, the whole reason [9:48] you make money, that's the means, but [9:50] the ends is such that you can protect [9:51] others. I find that's the most rewarding [9:53] thing in the world. And then finally, [9:55] procreator, and that is uh I think we [9:59] need to stop demonizing young men's [10:00] desire for relationships and sexual [10:02] desires. I think a young man wanting to [10:05] have sex is can be a tremendous [10:08] motivator to be a better man. It's like [10:11] fire. It can be incredibly destructive, [10:13] but if you put it in a steel casing with [10:15] spark plugs, it can create tremendous [10:17] progress. And the story I use is that I [10:20] was at the Raleigh Hotel in Miami and I [10:22] saw a very attractive woman. And it was [10:24] the middle of the day and without the [10:26] benefit of alcohol, I didn't have the [10:27] confidence to approach her, but I [10:29] promised myself I was going to approach [10:30] her. And then I went out to get my car [10:31] from the valet and was sitting in the [10:33] car and I'm like, "God, you're such a [10:34] [ __ ] wimp." So I ran back in, went up [10:37] to her and said, "Hi, I'm Scott. Where [10:40] are you from?" Anyways, long story [10:41] short, 18 months later, our son's middle [10:43] name is is uh born was Raleigh. And I I [10:47] didn't look at her, Andrew, and think [10:48] I'd really like lower rates on auto [10:50] insurance. I looked at her and thought, [10:52] I'd really like to have sex with her. [10:54] And I think young men's desire for [10:56] relationships and sex, if channeled [10:58] correctly, makes you want to be a better [10:59] man. Have a a kindness practice. [11:02] Demonstrate excellence. Shower for God's [11:04] sakes. Work out. Have a plan. Have [11:07] resilience. Have perseverance. [11:09] demonstrate excellence. So in some [11:13] provider, protector, procreator, where I [11:15] think I missed it in the book, and I'd [11:17] love your response because I'm open to [11:18] criticism here is one that's what work [11:22] worked for me and I think a lot of [11:24] younger people there's different forms [11:26] of masculinity that don't necessarily [11:27] involve being economically secure, [11:29] finding finding a mate. And also the [11:31] component I've really missed is service. [11:36] And I think a great great kind of one [11:39] question or proxy for masculinity in [11:43] terms of what you do every day is are [11:44] you optimizing for attention or service? [11:48] Right? And and then the litmus test that [11:51] Richard Reeves kind of gave me uh who's [11:53] sort of my Yoda on this stuff is this [11:56] notion of surplus value that some men [11:59] are born males but never they die never [12:02] having become men. It's not about a [12:03] religious ceremony and age or you know [12:06] some sort of experience or ritual. It's [12:08] about at some point can you honestly [12:09] look in the mirror and say I add surplus [12:12] value. I create more tax revenue in jobs [12:14] than I absorb. Everyone absorbs tax [12:16] revenue if you're in America. I listen [12:18] to more people complain than I complain. [12:21] Right? I love more people than love me. [12:24] And I didn't get that. I don't think I [12:26] really became a man well into my 40s [12:28] because I was always I took a capitalist [12:30] approach to relationships. [12:32] I always wanted more. I wanted a [12:34] girlfriend that was better to me than I [12:35] was to her. I wanted a job where I was [12:38] getting paid more maybe than I was [12:40] contributing. And then what you realize [12:42] as you get older is the whole shooting [12:44] match is to to create surplus value, [12:48] provide, be a better friend, be a better [12:50] partner. There's no way my kids will [12:52] ever be able to return as much as I've [12:54] invested in them. I mean, we have these, [12:56] you know, the Hallmark Channel and [12:57] insurance commercials will tell me that [12:59] I'll have these moments, and I get [13:00] those, but my kids are never up at 2 am [13:03] worried about me. They just aren't, [13:05] right? I' I'm spending a ton I always [13:07] say to them, you're adding negative [13:08] value. Just be clear, you go to these [13:11] amazing schools, all these talented [13:12] people, negative value. Me and your mom, [13:15] we are constantly investing in you. This [13:17] would be impossible for you to pass [13:18] back. What I figured out is that's the [13:21] whole shooting match is I'm finally [13:23] Andrew finally at a place of surplus [13:25] value. I apologize for the word salary [13:27] provider, protector, procreator. Um are [13:31] you are you optimizing for service not [13:34] attention? And do you can you really say [13:36] you add surplus value? [13:39] >> I'd like to take a quick break to [13:40] acknowledge one of our sponsors, David. [13:43] David makes protein bars unlike any [13:45] other. Their newest bar, the Bronze Bar, [13:47] has 20 grams of protein, only 150 [13:50] calories, and zero grams of sugar. I [13:52] have to say, these are the best tasting [13:54] protein bars I've ever had, and I've [13:57] tried a lot of protein bars over the [13:59] years. These New David bars have a [14:01] marshmallow base and they're covered in [14:03] chocolate coating and they're absolutely [14:05] incredible. I of course eat regular [14:07] whole foods. 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That's [16:16] wealthfront.com/huberman [16:19] to get started. This is a paid [16:20] testimonial of Wealthfront. Client [16:22] experiences will vary. Wealthfront [16:24] brokerage is not a bank. The base APY is [16:27] as of January 30th, 2026 and subject to [16:30] change. For more information, please see [16:32] the episode description. I love all [16:35] that. I don't have anything to add. I do [16:37] have two questions and one reflection. [16:40] The reflection is that what you started [16:43] with that every day you're making [16:45] decisions all day long. And you want [16:48] more of those to be good decisions than [16:50] bad decisions relative to your peers. I [16:53] think that's a a terrific way to think [16:55] about striving and I've never heard it [16:58] posed that way. So I really just want to [16:59] bold underline and highlight that for [17:01] everyone. For the eighth grader, for the [17:04] 12th grader, for the college junior, the [17:07] 40year-old man, [17:10] make better decisions than the average [17:13] around you. The problem I have, I guess [17:16] I do have one one caveat here, is um [17:18] that most people won't remember this, [17:20] but that show Jerry Springer I think was [17:22] so popular because people like to focus [17:23] on all the people doing worse than them [17:25] because it makes it easy to stay right [17:26] where you're at. [17:27] >> Yeah. [17:27] >> So, who are the comparison points that [17:29] one can keep in mind as they strive to [17:31] make these better decisions each day? [17:32] Because I think that first statement you [17:34] made is touching into some serious [17:36] wisdom. So, who is the comparison point [17:40] and how do you keep that framed? because [17:42] you study markets, you understand [17:44] markets. What's the market comparison [17:46] point in this? Make more better [17:49] decisions than worse ones relative to [17:50] the average as you progress through your [17:52] day. [17:53] >> I think it's really important, I mean, [17:55] you're talking a little bit about role [17:56] models and references. And so, first [17:58] off, one myth I think we need to dispel [18:02] is that success equals exploitation. [18:05] There's a very unhealthy zeitgeist, [18:07] especially from the far left, that [18:09] anyone who's very successful is [18:11] exploiting others. And I think we need [18:13] to puncture that narrative and say you [18:14] should strive to be successful. And [18:16] success might mean certain things for [18:18] other people. I didn't grow up with [18:19] money. So for me, success for most of my [18:21] life was trying to get economic [18:22] security. I I was anxiety plagued my mom [18:26] and I, economic anxiety, and it was like [18:29] a ghost following us around telling us [18:30] we weren't worthy. So my role models [18:32] were always people who had figured out [18:34] economic success and people have to pick [18:37] their own role models. I always thought [18:38] masculinity was getting back in [18:40] someone's face who wasn't didn't give me [18:42] the respect I thought I deserved. I was [18:44] that [ __ ] that when someone cut me [18:45] off in traffic felt like I needed to [18:47] speed up and cut them off. That if the [18:49] Delta ticket counter representative [18:52] wasn't kind to me or was busy, I would [18:54] get back in their face. It's like, well, [18:55] do you realize I'm a 1K member? And [18:57] then, you know, a decent reference point [18:59] is just men you admire and they're [19:02] everywhere that perhaps don't can take [19:05] blows. They realize someone might be [19:07] having a bad day. But you said something [19:11] that that inspired a thought in that [19:12] what I just outlined is pretty meta. You [19:14] know, kind of themes that sometimes [19:16] aren't that actionable. So, I just want [19:18] to bring it down one level. As we were [19:20] talking about off mic, I try and mentor [19:22] two or three young men at any given [19:23] time. And these are young men that quite [19:26] frankly need mentoring. They're [19:28] struggling. Most of them might be still [19:29] living at home. You know, they're not [19:31] these aren't people who went to Brown [19:32] and are working at Goldman Sachs. And [19:34] so, some just some more tactical things [19:37] that I think serve as a reference point [19:39] for how you succeed or how you make [19:43] progress. The first thing I do, the [19:45] first hack is I say, "Unlock your [19:46] phone." And I'm going to look at it. And [19:48] there's a little bit of nervousness. So, [19:50] what I do to loosen them up or lubricate [19:52] it is I say, "Okay, let me tell you two [19:53] things. First is I gamble. I don't [19:55] gamble on FanDuel. I gamble with [19:58] options. I know it's stupid. I know I'm [20:00] going to lose money over the long term. [20:01] I'm a smart guy. I love markets, but [20:03] that dope a hit I get is too seductive. [20:06] So, I sell calls and and and puts. Uh I [20:10] consume porn. That's sort of not that's [20:12] not a that's an embarrassing thing to [20:14] say at 61, but yeah, I still consume [20:17] porn. But I tell them that and it [20:19] lubricates or it it makes them more [20:21] comfortable. I open their phone. [20:24] Everyone has an advantage. Most young [20:26] men who are not excelling, if you will, [20:28] by traditional western capitalist [20:30] standards, their advantage is capital. [20:33] Specifically, their human capital. They [20:35] have time. And within about 5 to 7 [20:39] minutes, I can find eight hours of time [20:41] from Tik Tok, from X, from porn, from [20:44] gambling sites, from YouTube. I'm like, [20:47] we're going to find eight hours. You [20:49] tell me we're we're going to reduce this [20:51] eight hours. Next week I'm going to [20:52] check and we're going to reallocate that [20:55] capital into three things. The first is [20:57] we're going to get really [ __ ] [20:58] strong. I just think the best [21:00] anti-depressant is moving weights, [21:03] building some bulk or running far. I' [21:06] I've jokingly said every man under the [21:07] age of 30 should aspire to be able to [21:09] walk into any room and know if [ __ ] got [21:11] real they could kill and eat everybody [21:13] or outrun them. Like there's different [21:15] forms of fitness. You can be fast, you [21:16] can be flexible, you can be strong, but [21:18] there's no excuse. the male form is [21:21] blessed with, you know, more bone [21:23] density, double twitch muscle, all the [21:25] things you talk about, this incredible [21:27] substance that pours over called [21:28] testosterone. You're going to look back [21:30] when you're my age and think, why wasn't [21:32] I just fast, sleek, a monster, just [21:36] strong, so we're going to work out at [21:37] least three times a week. The second [21:39] thing is we got to make some money. And [21:41] I want you to make money outside your [21:43] house. You know, I don't care if you're [21:44] a lift driver, task rabbiter, Panera is [21:47] hiring people at 18 bucks an hour and [21:49] only one out of 10 that accept a job [21:50] actually owe up show up the first day. [21:52] So, if you make if you really make the [21:55] effort, you can make decent money. And [21:57] the great thing about getting a taste [21:59] for the flesh of money is you start [22:00] learning how to make more money. If you [22:02] want to make a lot of money, unless [22:04] you're smart enough to be born to rich [22:05] parents, start off by making a little [22:07] bit of money and you'll start to figure [22:08] out capitalism, right? And the final [22:11] thing is at least three times a month [22:14] we're going to put ourselves in a group [22:15] sitting where we are trying to achieve [22:17] something great in the agency of others. [22:20] A nonprofit, a church group, a sports [22:23] league, a writing club. And then the [22:25] second phase of that is we're going to [22:26] do something what I call the approach. [22:29] Hey, hey man, do you want to go watch [22:31] the Jets game? Right? An expression of [22:33] friendship. And then if you're really [22:35] comfortable, an expression of romantic [22:37] interest while making them feel safe. [22:38] would you like to grab a coffee [22:39] sometime? And this is the goal. The goal [22:42] is no because you're going to get nos. [22:46] And then I'm going to call you after [22:47] you've made the approach, you're going [22:48] to text me, I did an approach. Did you [22:50] get a no? Yeah, I got a no. That's [22:52] exactly the point. That's the goal. Cuz [22:54] everyone you admire, everyone you think [22:56] has killed it. The only thing I can [22:58] guarantee you is there were a [ __ ] ton [23:00] of nos in getting to one of the top 10 [23:02] podcasts in the world. Getting to a [23:04] person as a partner who's higher [23:05] character and hotter than you, getting [23:07] to make more money than you would have [23:09] ever guessed that person would have [23:10] made. The only thing that got them there [23:12] was the willingness and the endurance to [23:14] re to anticipate no. And unfortunately, [23:17] big tech is setting up an algorithm that [23:20] convinces you that a frictionless life [23:22] is a good life and that you never need [23:24] to endure no. And what you end up with [23:26] is a lack of skills to to p persevere, [23:30] to realize you're okay. And that's what [23:32] I ask the kids the next day. Are you [23:34] okay? Yeah, I'm bummed out, but you're [23:36] okay. If a man under the age of 30 works [23:39] out three times a week, works 30 hours a [23:41] week outside of the house, right? And is [23:44] volunteering, that immediately puts him [23:46] in the top 8% of all young men. And I [23:49] apologize for the word salad here, but [23:51] something I hate is the incel movement. [23:54] involuntarily celibate. Right? [23:56] Throughout history, 99% of men have been [23:59] involuntarily celibate for most of their [24:00] lives. There's few things young men [24:02] would rather be doing than having sex. [24:04] Only 40% of men have reproduced [24:06] throughout history. 80% of women. So, no [24:09] man has a birthight to reproduce. In the [24:11] West, it's actually now 75%. So, young [24:13] men have more agency than they ever [24:16] have. Now, if you do those things right, [24:20] just those three things, work outside of [24:21] the house, work out, have a kindness [24:23] practice, uh volunteer in the service of [24:26] others, you're immediately going to put [24:28] yourself in the top desile of young men. [24:30] And if you're in the top desile of young [24:32] men, I can guarantee you over time you [24:35] will become voluntarily incelibate, [24:38] which is awesome because you'll [24:40] establish a relationship. And young men [24:42] under the age of 30, a lot of the [24:43] research shows, benefit more from a [24:45] relationship than women. Yet only one in [24:47] three men under the age of 30 is in a [24:49] relationship. Whereas two in three women [24:51] are in a relationship. And you think, [24:52] well, Scott, that's mathematically [24:54] impossible. It's not because women are [24:57] dating older because they want more [24:58] economically and emotionally viable men. [25:01] So, I'll circle back to the more [25:02] tactical recommendations. Get fit, start [25:06] making some money, have a plan, and [25:08] start doing things in the agency of [25:10] others. I think the ultimate hack for [25:12] depression or if you're feeling bad [25:14] about yourself is to start helping [25:17] others and to always keep in mind and [25:20] this is the hard part that the [25:22] antichrist of your progress as a young [25:25] man the devil the [ __ ] enemy the [25:28] villain here the bond villain with [25:30] trillions of dollars is big tech. They [25:34] are trying to figure out with AI a [25:36] million times a second how to convince [25:38] you to spend one more second a day on [25:40] your phone sequestered from your [25:42] relationships because they're a [25:44] shareholder value. 40% of the S&P is 10 [25:47] companies whose sole mission is to [25:49] monetize your time. And unfortunately [25:52] they're not they're not bad people but [25:54] what they're doing has resulted in a [25:56] small group a cohort of men. It's not [25:59] small. Millions of men who are evolving [26:01] into a new species of asocial, asexual [26:04] males, who wake up at the age of 30 [26:06] thinking they've had a frictionless [26:08] life, living at home, obese, anxious, [26:11] and depressed, having never developed [26:12] the skills that they need to do well [26:15] professionally, personally. So big tech [26:18] is not your friend. If you do not figure [26:20] out how to modulate big tech products, [26:23] whether it's Instagram or YouTube, you [26:25] are falling into a trap of eventually [26:28] being sequestered and not developing the [26:30] skills to establish the most important [26:32] thing in life and that is relationships. [26:35] >> Two questions about big tech and I'll [26:37] just push back a little bit on the big [26:39] tech thing. Uh not because I'm afraid of [26:41] big tech. I did grow up in Silicon [26:43] Valley so I I [26:44] >> Well, you're at Stanford. [26:45] >> Yeah. Invariably have a different [26:46] relationship to it. And I uh I'm not um [26:49] name dropping. I happen to be close with [26:51] some of the people that run these [26:52] companies or in number, you know, two or [26:54] number four slots or, you know, in some [26:56] cases who run the companies. One who [26:58] I've never met, who I'll just raise [26:59] first, um is who you referred to [27:02] earlier, the richest man in the world is [27:03] Elon Musk. [27:04] >> And I was frankly a little bit surprised [27:07] that you um called him out when [27:10] discussing the importance of being a [27:12] protector. I understand the political [27:15] side. Well, let's just for the moment I [27:17] will just set Trump aside. Um, very [27:19] polarizing figure. [27:20] >> Happy to go there if you want, but I [27:22] know your stance on him. But the the [27:24] mention of Elon and as a nonp protector [27:26] surprised me [27:28] >> because I think of Elon as somebody who [27:30] seems to love his children very much. [27:32] Uh, he's organized family differently [27:35] than most, but he certainly has the [27:36] capacity to take care of them. Who is [27:39] committed to big projects. Mhm. [27:41] >> I mean, a a superhuman level of of [27:43] output in terms of just neural link, the [27:45] field that I'm closest to, right? [27:47] Phenomenal progress. And that's just one [27:50] of the SpaceX Neural Link, Tesla X, etc. [27:52] So, I'm just curious what um motivated [27:54] that. Do you that um makes you uh [27:59] because I don't see him as a nonproctor. [28:02] I I don't know that I see him [28:03] >> as a protector of a particular kind in [28:06] his personal life, but I don't have [28:07] access to that. But in terms of his [28:09] motivation to pro protect our species, [28:11] >> I personally believe his desire to get [28:14] to Mars is a genuine one [28:16] >> to have an option uh for humanity. So I [28:20] see him as a protector. And I'll [28:22] probably piss off a lot of people by [28:23] saying this, but that doesn't mean I [28:24] universally adopt everything he says and [28:26] does, but I see him as kind of an [28:28] awesome figure in our history who's [28:29] like, "Let's get to Mars in case this [28:31] Earth thing doesn't work out." And also, [28:33] let's get to Mars cuz it's awesome. [28:35] >> I think that's an entirely fair [28:36] viewpoint. and you're adding nuance to [28:38] it. So, let's talk about Elon Musk. If I [28:40] had a red button that I could push and [28:43] get rid of all of big tech or Elon Musk, [28:46] somehow he could float away like a [28:48] Gabriel Garcia Marquez [28:50] uh uh character and not die, but just [28:53] not not have happened. I wouldn't press [28:55] the button. I think big tech and Elon [28:58] Musk are net goods for the world. [29:00] >> We're going to get to EVs. We're going [29:02] to get to Mars faster because of Elon [29:03] Musk. He inspired the EV race, which is [29:07] good for the world. The problem is with [29:10] the word net. And as it relates to [29:12] masculinity and as a role model for [29:14] young men, he's probably one of the best [29:16] role models in terms of being super [29:18] aggressive, taking risks, ignoring the [29:21] noise, and just being laser-like [29:24] focused, telling an amazing story, [29:25] garnering capital. I mean, there's just [29:28] no getting around it. The guy's just an [29:29] inspiration. I think the whole shooting [29:32] match is if you become the richest man [29:33] in the world, I think he moved to [29:35] protection. I would argue that he's not [29:37] a great role model and that he has not [29:40] done a great job of convincing younger [29:42] men that protection and taking care of [29:46] others. I think the way he acquits [29:48] himself online by punching down when he [29:51] says something mean about somebody and I [29:53] know this and I'm fine because I have I [29:56] have money and I'm not dependent upon [29:57] any one person's opinion of me. But if [30:00] he says something negative about you and [30:02] calls you names, his 120 million [30:04] followers come for you. And I think as a [30:07] general rule, and this is true for [30:09] everybody, but especially for men, you [30:11] never punch down. You just don't. [30:13] anyone. I'm I'm openly I make personal [30:16] attacks on people. This is technically a [30:18] personal attack on Elon Musk. To call [30:20] someone not not not good a good role [30:23] model, that's a personal attack. But I [30:25] never make personal attacks of anyone [30:26] who isn't marketkedly more powerful than [30:29] me. And I find that a lot of these [30:31] people, Donald Trump and Elon Musk, have [30:33] no problem punching down. So again, it [30:36] goes back to this. Is he a net good for [30:38] the world? I acknowledge the point. And [30:40] I would even argue, yeah, he is. But [30:42] that doesn't he should also be held [30:44] accountable for his blessings. I can't [30:46] stand the fact that he should post [30:47] America and the government. If you look [30:49] at the most successful companies in the [30:51] world, they're littered up and down the [30:53] coast right now. Whether it's Qualcomm [30:55] and San Diego, [30:57] SpaceX and Snap here, head north to [31:00] Salesforce and Meta and Google, keep [31:03] going, you hit Amazon and Microsoft, and [31:05] then it stops once you get to the [31:07] Canadian border. And then you have to go [31:09] all the way up to Lululemon to find a [31:10] multi-billion dollar company. Come back [31:12] down to where you teach at UC San Diego [31:14] and those great companies and it stops [31:16] and you got to go to another 7,000 [31:19] kilometers to get the Marcato Libé and [31:21] Buenosarees. There's something about [31:22] America that creates unbelievable [31:25] opportunity that creates the wealthiest [31:27] men in the world. And I find that these [31:28] tech brothers have a total lack of [31:31] appreciation for the sacrifices in the [31:33] system built in America and are the [31:35] first to ship post the government and [31:37] complain about regulation and things [31:39] getting in the way. I find that [31:40] especially obnoxious. But let me [31:42] acknowledge the point. I think on the [31:44] whole Elon Musk and big tech are a net [31:47] good for the world, but that doesn't [31:48] mean we shouldn't hold them accountable [31:50] and ask why would you do these things [31:52] when you're so blessed? [31:55] So, this gets to the heart of something [31:57] that I think is extremely important, [31:59] which is we're living in the age of [32:03] everything pretty much being public [32:05] about public figures. Not everything, [32:08] but many more facets of their lives than [32:11] ever before in history. In part because [32:13] they share many more facets of their [32:15] lives. It's not just that stuff gets [32:16] unearthed. It's like they're talking [32:19] about their company. They're also in the [32:20] role of arguing with their ex on [32:23] sometimes online. And you know, you see [32:25] that their kids sometimes will will be [32:27] apparent who they are. You know, it's [32:29] interesting. My my dad, first generation [32:32] immigrant who came here, became a [32:33] scientist, and he he's from Argentina, [32:35] and he along these lines, he always said [32:37] it was funny to him that when you would [32:39] go to somebody's office in the United [32:40] States, a professor or a businessman or [32:42] something, the picture of his family was [32:44] facing out. [32:45] >> He said that was so weird. He said, "In [32:47] Argentina, your picture of your wife and [32:49] your kids and your and your dog were [32:51] facing in. That's yours. you don't share [32:53] that with a person coming to your [32:54] office. Like who would do that? This [32:55] oversharing thing if it when you look [32:57] back is a kind of a a long-standing [33:00] theme in American business and it it [33:03] shows up even more so of course online. [33:06] So to me this this idea of okay Elon for [33:10] instance but very different um role [33:12] model figure someone that I consider a [33:14] close friend Joo Willink incredibly [33:16] impressive [33:17] >> true warrior [33:18] >> great dad great husband I know his [33:21] family amazing human being in so many [33:23] ways and he's kind of like the tough [33:25] football coach that a lot of guys didn't [33:27] have that younger guys I think that's [33:28] one of the reasons people gravitate [33:29] towards him you don't wonder whether or [33:31] not he really can do what he says you [33:33] ought to do because he does it every day [33:35] and he posts it on his watch. So Jaco is [33:37] a really good example [33:38] >> of somebody that people admire and I [33:40] consider Jaco one example. So why not [33:43] look at public figures [33:46] >> you and perhaps even me for instance and [33:48] just look at it these people as a buffet [33:50] of options to adopt certain traits but [33:53] not others be doing great things and [33:55] assuming that the other things they're [33:56] doing aren't you know truly atrocious [33:58] right I mean criminal atrocious you know [34:00] >> I don't know that we're asking the [34:03] people who are role models leaders [34:05] business leaders [34:07] >> I don't think we're placing a reasonable [34:08] expectation on them I don't say this for [34:10] any personal reasons I I've known [34:12] replete with flaws for the very long [34:14] time. So I don't claim to not have them, [34:16] never have. But then young guys are [34:18] might be thinking, well, I have to be [34:20] perfect, too. And if I'm not perfect and [34:23] I don't have 150 million followers, I [34:25] better have a fraternity of people to [34:27] protect me. This is the kind of the [34:30] underlying current that I think has [34:32] driven the toxic end of the hate the [34:35] word, the manosphere. I hate it because [34:38] it's become too mishmashy. Mhm. [34:40] >> It's not it's not even a continuum. It's [34:42] just a mess. So, [34:45] what do you have to say and think about [34:47] the expectation that the leaders of the [34:50] world, the role model [34:52] not have these flaws? [34:54] >> Mhm. [34:55] >> At the same time, telling guys, hey, [34:57] like ask and get told no. [34:59] >> Mhm. [34:59] >> I mean, you and I both know I don't know [35:01] if it's real world data or if it's [35:03] statistical data, but I have many women [35:05] friends in my life and I have a sister. [35:06] If an attractive guy rolls up on a woman [35:09] and says, "Hey, you want to get coffee [35:11] sometime?" [35:11] >> It's romantic. [35:12] >> It's romantic. If a guy that's not [35:14] attractive does that, [35:14] >> it's creepy. [35:16] >> It's creepy. So, how do you tell a guy [35:18] that isn't good-looking? [35:20] >> Yeah. [35:20] >> To do that, and then not be called a [35:23] creep. And not just be called a creep, [35:24] but be called a creep on an app, which [35:26] isn't just designed to prevent sexual [35:28] assault, but is also designed to share [35:30] information about who to date and not to [35:31] date. And guys get black. I'm told by [35:33] young guys, I'm not on dating apps, but [35:36] that guys get blacklisted basically, [35:38] >> not because of sexual assault, but [35:40] because, you know, they get called out [35:43] as like a bad kisser. He didn't smell so [35:45] good or something. This is the stuff [35:46] that used to be in private discussions [35:48] among women. I know this cuz I have a [35:49] sister, right? Women talk. I listen [35:51] through the wall, right? What do they [35:52] talk about? And [35:54] >> now it's public. There's parallel [35:56] construction here. I'm sure you're [35:57] tracking it. But for everyone listening, [35:59] it's like this is a serious problem. [36:01] Mhm. [36:01] >> I mean, can't we acknowledge that [36:03] somebody like Elon, let's just stay on [36:05] that example, is a is a phenom that [36:08] probably has never existed inund at [36:10] least a hundred years. [36:11] >> Mhm. [36:12] >> Has huge vision. Sure, he might have [36:14] some like issues in his in his life that [36:17] are none of my business. And yet he has [36:20] a lot of good example to set for young [36:22] men. I believe that. And it also gives [36:25] permission to not be perfect [36:28] without harming people. [36:31] So, [36:32] uh, acknowledge the point. There's a lot [36:34] there, but I still think if someone is [36:38] um constantly optimizing for attention [36:41] to draw cheap capital to his firms and [36:44] is very open and very critical of others [36:47] and is probably the most dominant force [36:50] in electing the next president, [36:53] um that we should pay very close [36:56] attention to his activities, whether [36:58] it's a reported addiction to ketamine [37:01] and and sleeping with a loaded gun next [37:04] to his bed and not living with any of [37:05] his children, whether it's [37:08] >> you think that should be public fair [37:09] game. [37:10] >> I think if he wants to put certain [37:11] aspects of his life out there constantly [37:13] for affirmation, that that type of [37:15] scrutiny is probably fair game. I also [37:18] acknowledge the point that people are [37:21] human and you need to have some grace [37:23] and say, well, unless you're perfect, [37:26] try and learn from people, try and [37:28] understand them, and try and demonstrate [37:30] some grace. The other thing going back [37:32] to big tech is that we have connected um [37:35] economic [37:38] value to tearing down people. So you've [37:40] had bestsellers. I've had bestsellers. [37:43] >> I still my book hasn't come out yet. I [37:44] hope for it to be a bestseller. [37:46] >> You haven't? Do you have a book? [37:46] >> No, it comes out in September. It's been [37:48] delayed for a while, but but I [37:49] appreciate the [37:50] >> I feel like I've already read it. [37:51] >> No. Well, God God willing as well. If it [37:54] doesn't it doesn't [37:54] >> Let me Let me prepare because I think [37:56] you're actually my I don't know you [37:58] well, but I do know you. I get the sense [38:00] that like me a lot of the criticism [38:02] doesn't just bounce right off you that [38:04] you take the stuff to heart and [38:06] sometimes it upsets you. I know it. [38:08] Okay, I'll say it upsets me. [38:09] >> Some of it does, but it's not the [38:10] criticism that people think upsets me. [38:13] That upsets me, but that's a different [38:14] story. [38:15] >> Your book will be a bestseller. You you [38:17] could put out you could you could put [38:19] out I don't know the the the script of [38:22] The Sound of Music and it's going to be [38:24] a bestseller. It'll be better than if I [38:27] had done that, but not better than The [38:28] Sound of Music. [38:29] >> There you go. And this is what uh Tik [38:32] Tok and YouTube, the algorithms, it [38:34] someone will immediately say, "This is [38:36] why Andrew Huberman's book is bullshit." [38:40] Because if they put a well-known [38:41] figure's name in front of a best-selling [38:43] book and says [ __ ] and creates [38:45] antagonism and comments, the algorithms [38:48] pick up on that, optimize it, it'll get [38:50] millions of views, which is more Nissan [38:52] ads and more shareholder value. So there [38:55] is not only a healthy check on people's [38:58] power, more scrutiny. The president [39:00] should get a lot of scrutiny. The [39:02] president deserves to have his business [39:04] and personal life uh to a certain extent [39:06] at least where it demonstrates character [39:08] looked into and examined and I think a [39:10] certain amount of power and healthy [39:12] check on power is probably a healthy [39:13] thing. Unfortunately now there's [39:15] economic incentive around tearing people [39:18] down. Like I don't know about you I do [39:20] have a real fear. I am highly imperfect [39:22] professionally and personally. I've [39:25] engaged in a lot of professional and [39:26] personal behavior that I am not proud [39:28] of. I've been divorced. I haven't been [39:30] as kind to people that have worked for [39:32] me as I should have been. And I'm [39:34] worried it's all going to come crashing [39:35] down. And a lot of times I feel like the [39:37] stuff I'm saying on podcasts like this, [39:39] I'm trying to portray myself as being [39:41] better than I actually am. I have huge [39:42] imposttor syndrome. And big tech has an [39:46] economic incentive in trying to find as [39:50] many guardians of gotcha pins as [39:52] possible because if you get to a certain [39:54] point of fame or credibility, there's [39:57] just too much money in trying to find [39:59] the soft tissue on you. So there's a [40:01] very unhealthy attribute in our society [40:03] where we're all just waiting for bad [40:05] news and there's economic incentive to [40:07] say, "Well, this person isn't perfect. [40:08] Look what this person did." So I agree [40:10] with you. We need to demonstrate a [40:12] little bit more grace. Something I [40:13] really hate about my party, I consider [40:16] myself a proud progressive, is these [40:18] purity tests, right? That Oh, you know, [40:22] I I put out a picture of me and a bunch [40:25] of buddies that I went to UCLA with. [40:27] One's a an aircraft carrier pilot, one's [40:30] an opthalmologist. Like, it was a [40:32] picture of all of us, and I've said, you [40:34] know, find impressive men and and [40:35] befriend them. [40:36] >> I think I saw that post. You were the [40:37] one towering over the rest of them. [40:39] >> Yeah. I think I shrunk. Huh. [40:40] >> Isn't that weird? No, I don't think you [40:43] know you now. [40:44] >> I was 6'3 in college. I'm 61 and a half [40:46] now. That's nice. I'm at an age where [40:47] I'm shrinking anyways. And I knew I was [40:49] just waiting for it. White privilege. [40:51] What a douchebag. What, you know, just [40:54] all the comments and all the sort of, [40:56] you know, people people coming after [40:59] you, right? Or people who can't just [41:01] say, "Oh, good for you. Well done." And [41:04] that's just part of it. And that's a [41:05] small price to pay for a certain level [41:06] of success, but the algorithms [41:09] immediately grab that and elevate it [41:11] because there's money and antagonism. A [41:14] thoughtful nuance conversation online [41:16] and a positive reinforcing comment that [41:19] that doesn't tickle the sensors. If you [41:21] can create a fight online, if you say [41:23] mRNA vaccines alter your DNA, you're [41:26] going to get a lot of comments and the [41:27] algorithms love that and it'll elevate [41:29] it. So unfortunately, we have attached [41:32] 40% of the market value of the S&P to [41:35] incendiary content that tears us apart. [41:37] And the result is people now don't [41:40] believe that Russian troops pouring over [41:41] the border in Ukraine is their enemy. [41:42] They believe that their neighbor with a [41:44] Trump sign is their real enemy. Or [41:46] someone who doesn't believe your [41:48] ideology around gender politics is your [41:51] enemy. And unfortunately, it's being I [41:54] believe, and I know this sounds [41:54] paranoid, but doesn't mean I'm wrong. [41:56] these poorest platforms that have an [41:58] economic incentive and antagonistic [42:00] content are being fueled [42:02] uh by bad actors whether it's the GRU or [42:05] the CCP who look at Americans say we [42:07] can't beat them economically we can't [42:09] beat them kinetically so let's get them [42:12] to hate each other and that is Americans [42:14] now perceive other Americans as the [42:16] biggest threat so one it is healthy to [42:20] look at powerful people that have huge [42:21] influence such as you and to a lesser [42:23] extent me and question their beliefs and [42:26] critical articles of them. It crushed me [42:28] when the I can't remember was the [42:30] Atlantic or the New York or New Yorker [42:33] came out with sort of a critical review [42:35] of my book. It was really upsetting to [42:36] me. And I think part of the thing that [42:38] was so upsetting was when we were [42:40] talking about this off mic, it meant [42:41] some of it was true. That's healthy. [42:43] It's healthy when there's thoughtful [42:45] criticism around your book. But when I [42:47] have hundreds of comments accusing me of [42:50] [ __ ] that never happened and then you [42:53] look at it and it's dogm Wisconsin 331 [42:56] with three followers, that's a bot. And [42:59] the fact that these platforms choose not [43:00] to screen out those bots because they [43:03] know more incendiary comments that [43:04] create more comments and more Nissan [43:06] ads, I think that is tearing at the [43:08] fabric of America. But I just want to [43:10] acknowledge the point. I think maturity [43:12] is realizing people aren't perfect. [43:14] Learn from them what you can. But I do [43:16] think the wealthiest man in the world [43:17] and the president should be held to a [43:19] higher standard. I think they have [43:20] extraordinary blessings. I think their [43:22] decisions matter and I think it's I [43:24] think the scrutiny they come under is [43:26] warranted. And I will say this, I think [43:29] the president to a certain extent Elon [43:31] Musk have created a lot of cloud cover [43:32] for our imperfections. [43:34] >> As many of you know, I've been taking [43:36] AG1 for nearly 15 years now. I [43:39] discovered it way back in 2012, long [43:41] before I ever had a podcast, and I've [43:44] been taking it every day since. The [43:46] reason I started taking it, and the [43:47] reason I still take it, is because AG1 [43:49] is, to my knowledge, the highest quality [43:51] and most comprehensive of the [43:53] foundational nutritional supplements on [43:54] the market. It combines vitamins, [43:56] minerals, prebiotics, probiotics, and [43:59] adaptogens into a single scoop that's [44:01] easy to drink, and it tastes great. 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For a limited [44:42] time, AG1 is giving away six free travel [44:45] packs of AG1 and a bottle of vitamin D3 [44:47] K2 with your subscription. Again, that's [44:50] drink AG1 with the numeral [44:51] one.com/huberman [44:53] to get six free travel packs and a [44:55] bottle of vitamin D3 K2 with your [44:57] subscription. I disagree um vehemently [45:01] with one point, which is that I'm more [45:02] influential than you are. You're [45:04] incredibly influential. In fact, a a an [45:06] ex-girlfriend's sisterh who went to NYU [45:09] asked me if I knew who you were. I said, [45:10] "Of course." And and she said her words, [45:13] "For our generation, Scott is like a [45:16] father to us." It's like, "We" and she [45:18] happens to be in venture capital, but um [45:20] so maybe there's a finance link there, [45:22] too. And I but I pressed on that a [45:24] little bit and and just asked and and [45:26] she said, "Yeah, you know, we look up to [45:27] him. We listen to him. He's he's very [45:29] paternal to us." So, I thought you might [45:31] appreciate that. Um [45:32] >> I do appreciate that. Although I would [45:34] have woman as well. [45:35] >> I'd appreciate it more if she'd said [45:36] older brother. [45:37] >> I'm very conscious of my age now. But [45:40] >> really, [45:41] >> 100%. [45:42] >> You're in your 60s, you're super fit, [45:44] you got two healthy boys, you're in a [45:46] happy relationship, you got huge reach, [45:48] you I imagine your bank accounts are [45:49] fine, and you're trying to and you're [45:51] actively uh engaged in service. I I in [45:54] my eyes, you're doing great. [45:56] >> I appreciate that, but I' I'd rather be [45:58] doing I'd rather be in this spot at 40 [45:59] at 41, not 61. I'm very I'm very [46:02] self-conscious about my age. But I just [46:04] want to go back to [46:06] something I think that gets in the way [46:08] of success [46:10] and has been a huge unlock for me is [46:14] it I mean it's not but your fear your [46:16] fear of criticism. If you're going to be [46:17] successful you're going to face [46:19] criticism. Starting a business is [46:21] subjecting yourself to public failure. I [46:23] want to go back to something you said [46:24] about approaching women and guys being [46:26] afraid to be that guy. [46:29] I think some of that is a little bit [46:31] exaggerated [46:32] >> and that most women if you are [46:34] respectful, the vast majority of women, [46:36] if you are respectful and approach a [46:38] woman at a bar, hi, how are you? And [46:39] she's not interested, you're going to be [46:41] fine and you're both going to be fine. [46:43] And just as I think there's two myths [46:45] that are damaging to the mating market, [46:47] which is really upsetting to me. One, [46:49] that men think that all women are [46:51] looking to or a lot of women are looking [46:52] to embarrass them and they might get [46:54] cancelled professionally. If you're [46:55] respectful to a woman and approach her [46:57] and make her feel safe and then if she's [46:59] not interested, politely exit, you're [47:01] going to be fine and so is she, and I [47:02] don't buy that your career, you're [47:04] taking your career in your hands, I [47:05] think that's just [ __ ] and an excuse [47:07] to be an incel. I just don't buy it. And [47:10] two, what really has been an enormous [47:12] unlock for me is I believe in my [47:15] atheism. I believe at some point I'm [47:16] going to look into my kids' eyes and [47:18] know our relationship is coming to an [47:19] end. I was [ __ ] their age. You got a [47:22] bunch of young dudes in here who look [47:23] like former Abbercrombie and Fitch [47:25] models. I remember they look like [47:27] they're 25. They're probably 35. It was [47:30] yesterday I was their age, which means [47:32] just in an instant I'm going to be again [47:35] at that moment where I know I don't have [47:36] much time left. And in a 100 years, no [47:38] one's going to give a [ __ ] what I said [47:39] or thought or did or the mistakes I [47:41] made. And embracing that and accepting [47:44] that has given me so much courage, [47:47] right, to start businesses, to make dumb [47:49] investments that might be crazy, to tell [47:52] to tell men in my life finally that I [47:54] love them or I'm impressed with them. [47:56] When I was their age, I had this weird [47:58] sense of masculinity that if I said, [48:00] "Oh, dude, look how handsome this dude [48:01] is." That it took away from my prestige [48:04] somehow that I couldn't tell people they [48:06] were impressive. I couldn't tell a [48:08] woman, "God, I'm just crazy about you [48:10] and I'm I would give anything to spend [48:12] more time with you because I was worried [48:14] that she wouldn't return my affection [48:17] and I would be just too hurt and I had [48:18] to be cool and like not need her or not [48:21] all this [ __ ] that got in the way of [48:23] me really having a good life." And what [48:25] I realized is every failure I've had, [48:27] people go, "Oh, his business went [48:29] bankrupt." Okay. And then they go back [48:31] to thinking about themselves. So, [48:34] everyone you're worried about really [48:36] doesn't give a [ __ ] about you. And by [48:38] the way, the dude that's not very [48:40] good-looking and is with a ridiculously [48:41] like high character hot woman is one of [48:44] two things. Has rich parents or two or [48:47] two is willing to endure rejection. So, [48:52] I I just don't buy I you know [48:56] that myth of the man risking his [48:58] personal and professional reputation. I [49:00] don't think that's true. On the other [49:02] side, the myth I hate, I don't know if [49:03] you've seen this on Tik Tok, a lot of [49:06] women are saying, "I don't date because [49:08] the risk of being unalived," which I [49:10] guess is the woke version of saying [49:11] murdered. [49:12] >> I think it's cuz on social media [49:13] platforms, if you say murder or suicide, [49:16] >> oh, it goes ranked down. [49:17] >> They I don't know if it actually does, [49:19] but it's this idea that Yeah. that it's [49:21] going to be uh ranked down. [49:23] >> Here's the data. Okay. If 2500 women a [49:27] year are murdered by men, that's way too [49:30] many. It's a huge problem. Sexual [49:32] assault is a bigger problem. The [49:33] majority of women who are murdered are [49:35] murdered by someone they know. So the [49:38] reality is a small number of women are [49:40] murdered on dates with strangers. It [49:42] just doesn't happen that often. And [49:45] 40,000 men a year kill themselves. So if [49:47] you go on a date with a man, the man is [49:50] 16 times more likely to go home and hurt [49:52] himself than hurt you. So what I would [49:54] say to men is make the approach, take [49:56] the risk, and as long as you're [49:58] respectful, you're going to be fine and [49:59] so is she. and you are not taking your [50:01] professional or personal reputation into [50:02] your hands. And what I would say to [50:04] women is if you go on a date with a guy [50:06] that you met on an app, there's all [50:07] sorts of digital breadcrumbs. And it's a [50:10] lot you you are and I can statistically [50:12] prove this. The ride over an Uber, the [50:15] Uber was a lot more dangerous than the [50:17] date itself. And you are more likely to [50:20] die of choking during dinner than to be [50:22] hurt by that man. So, what what I hate [50:25] is that there's all this inflammatory [50:27] content being boosted on online media [50:30] that's getting in the way of the most [50:32] rewarding thing in life, and that is to [50:34] find someone who you are physically [50:36] attracted to, who you sync up with [50:38] spiritually, and you decide to build a [50:40] life together. And not enough of that is [50:42] happening. We're in a sex recession, [50:44] right? And online is making it worse. [50:47] The dating apps have an incentive in you [50:49] finding a bigger, better deal. And the [50:52] genders have done an amazing job of [50:53] convincing each other it's the other's [50:55] fault. And I think one of the big fosi [50:58] that need to be really um pay more [51:01] attention to is what I call renewal of [51:03] alliances. I'd love to see a renewal of [51:05] alliances between us and our great [51:07] allies in Europe. Renewal of allies who [51:09] are moderates. I know nothing about you. [51:11] I just don't I just can't believe you're [51:12] an extremist on the left or the right. I [51:14] just don't. Bullseye. There needs to be [51:15] a renewal of alliances between what I'll [51:18] call moderate lefties like me and [51:20] moderate conservatives that are [51:22] everywhere. We're all Americans, but the [51:24] most important alliance that needs re [51:26] renewal is the greatest alliance in [51:28] history, hands down, and it's the [51:30] alliance between men and women. The [51:33] integration of female and male energy, [51:36] the ability to find someone you want to [51:38] procreate with, to build something [51:39] together, that is the most rewarding [51:41] thing in life. And I can prove it's key [51:44] to the species progress and existence. [51:47] And men and women have been taught not [51:48] to trust each other and to blame each [51:50] other. I hate the [ __ ] manosphere and [51:53] I hate the quite frankly some of the [51:54] reactionary notion on the left where [51:57] it's misandry cosplaying is social [51:59] commentary. There's a lot of [ __ ] [52:02] misandry online where you're assuming [52:05] every young man is a predator and quite [52:07] frankly that every billionaire is evil [52:09] or that every white person is racist. [52:11] But the alliance between men and women [52:13] needs to be reformed. It's the greatest [52:16] alliance in history. And online, it's [52:18] teaching men to blame women for their [52:20] problems. No. Women's as sense saved our [52:23] ass. Women in the factory in World War [52:25] II is the reason we won the war in four [52:28] years, not in seven. Women going into [52:30] the workforce in the 70s and 80s and [52:32] protections of their rights for fair pay [52:35] is the reason we're not a second tier [52:36] power to China right now. If women [52:39] hadn't ascended, we'd be really squarely [52:42] and duly [ __ ] right? And their ascent [52:45] is in no way inversely correlated or [52:48] correlated to men's descent. Men have to [52:50] stop that [ __ ] An immigrant didn't [52:51] take your job. He made it such you could [52:53] have lower rent, a meal for a reasonable [52:55] price, and have someone take care of [52:57] your mother when she's older. And at the [52:59] same time, if you're having romantic [53:01] problems, it's not her fault. Women are [53:03] ascending and naturally they have higher [53:06] standards because they're no longer [53:07] economically dependent upon men, which [53:09] should be a motivator for men to level [53:11] up, not to start blaming women. And all [53:13] this [ __ ] is being totally inflamed and [53:16] taken totally out of proportion by [53:19] online because it creates more [53:21] attention. It's interesting. It's novel. [53:24] And it creates more Nissan ads. But I [53:26] I'm trying to figure out what is the [53:28] economic incentive to try and figure out [53:31] a way to get more men and women [53:33] appreciating the other gender beyond [53:36] just the basics, right? How do we renew [53:38] that alliance? [53:41] I love that statement. I saw somewhere [53:44] of all places on X, you know, every once [53:46] in a while you encounter something that [53:48] really sticks with you. Every once in a [53:49] while there's a gem that just falls [53:51] through, really makes you think. And I [53:53] don't know who this person was. This [53:54] might have been an account with one [53:55] follower and it landed in front of me [53:57] and it said the way you destroy a [53:59] society is to get the men and women to [54:01] hate each other. And as a biologist [54:03] first and foremost I thought, well that [54:05] makes perfect sense, right? If you want [54:06] to eradicate a a population of any [54:09] species, you get the the males and the [54:10] females to start hating each other. Not [54:12] just because they don't mate, but [54:14] because you throw off the mating [54:17] dynamics in a way that then can create [54:19] infighting among the males. We see that [54:20] too. Infighting among the women. [54:23] Although I don't know, I I think that [54:25] there's a lot to explore around this [54:28] sort of what the standard is that we're [54:30] holding the opposite sex to. It's an [54:32] interesting question. I I I can't say [54:34] I've really evolved my thinking around [54:35] this enough to to maybe dive into it, [54:38] but I know you thought about this. I [54:40] think a lot of males hide behind this [54:43] notion that they have to be everything. [54:46] They have to be tall. They have to be [54:47] rich. They have to be jacked. They have [54:49] to be kind. They have to be, you know, [54:51] hopefully everyone's kind, but you know [54:52] what I mean, that they uh they can't say [54:54] the wrong thing even once, you know, so [54:56] they're hiding behind that and if they [54:58] go out and look, they'll get plenty of [54:59] evidence for that, [55:01] >> right? No men, no protectors, no this. [55:03] Actually, I I brought I did something I [55:05] rarely do. [55:06] >> Um, which is I brought my phone into [55:08] this because right before I came in [55:09] here, a woman that I've known for 20 [55:11] years wrote, asked me if I would ask you [55:13] a question. No, and it's directly [55:15] related to this. So, I'm gonna do this. [55:16] Of course, I'm not gonna say who this [55:17] person is. And she said, cuz I'd [55:20] mentioned that I'm speaking to you [55:21] today, and she said, "Please tell Scott [55:24] that I'd personally like to thank him [55:26] for his efforts encouraging men to [55:27] embrace their duties as protectors, [55:29] providers, and generally just being [55:30] accountable because we have a serious [55:34] shortage among hetereroudes." She lives [55:36] in San Francisco, particularly in the [55:38] Bay Area. And I said, "We'll do, but can [55:40] you tell me what you mean by [55:42] accountable?" Serious question. I want [55:43] to make sure I'm specific. She said, [55:45] "When I say accountability, I'm [55:47] referring to the fact that many times in [55:49] romantic relationships, men seem to want [55:50] to avoid feelings of shame and guilt to [55:53] such a degree that they often respond to [55:55] their partner's feelings towards them [55:56] without empathy or accountability. [55:59] I find that here in okay, San Francisco, [56:01] there are many women in San Francisco. I [56:03] don't think I outed her here. Or perhaps [56:05] all major US metros, chivalry is dead. [56:08] Men are afraid to assert their desires [56:10] because they don't want the obligation [56:11] that it might entail." Interesting. They [56:14] give up when something requires internal [56:16] growth or leveling up. They shy away [56:17] from acting protective of their partners [56:19] in favor of egalitarian dynamics, which [56:22] is flawed since men's clear since men [56:23] clearly have more physical strength. Oh [56:25] my god, this goes on and on. [56:27] >> This is almost overwhelming me, but I [56:28] think I'm, you know, can grapple with [56:30] it. Oh, thank you. I swear I didn't [56:33] plant this. She said, none of this has [56:35] ever applied to you in case you're [56:36] serious. Thank you for that one, by the [56:38] way. She says they're wimpy. They avoid [56:41] relationships that require work and [56:42] responsibility because they don't want [56:44] to feel inadequate. They avoid difficult [56:45] conversations and repair because they [56:47] don't want to feel shame or guilt. They [56:48] avoid asking for anything explicitly [56:50] because they don't want to feel [56:51] obligated or complimenting a woman or [56:53] giving her flowers or romance. They're [56:56] all scared to do it. It's so odd. [56:58] Anyway, that's it. [57:01] >> That's all. Huh. [57:02] >> Okay. So, I I'm reading I'm hearing that [57:04] second part for the first time, the long [57:06] part. And I have to say, if I were a [57:08] 25-year-old guy now, I' like, [57:11] >> whoa, [57:12] >> right, [57:12] >> that's a lot. Okay, there's something [57:15] there. They want me to bring flowers, be [57:17] romantic, be affectionate. Clearly, [57:19] there's a there's a reference towards [57:21] being sexually proactive there. And yet, [57:25] assume responsibility, level up, be [57:27] empathic. [57:28] >> You know, I'm not trying to defend or or [57:31] attack this person who's I'm close to in [57:33] my life, but that's a lot. That's a [57:36] that's a that's a tall building right [57:39] there to scale for a guy who's trying to [57:41] figure out how to work out three times a [57:42] week, get off point. Anyway, I thought [57:44] I'd share that and just get your [57:46] reflections. [57:47] I think that first off I think that [57:52] we all have a set of insecurities around [57:55] not living up mostly because again I I [57:58] come I really do think big tech has had [58:00] is is while it's a net good incredible [58:04] economic growth job growth I connect [58:06] with my buddies from college I get to [58:09] build a business and market it less [58:12] expensively I can break through voices [58:14] that can bubble up just based on their [58:16] talent [58:18] Teen suicide has skyrocketed since [58:20] social one on mobile. It's not the only [58:22] reason, but it's either number one or [58:24] number two. According to my colleague [58:26] Jonathan Height and Gene Twangi at San [58:28] Diego State, I don't believe there's any [58:30] reason that anyone under the age of 16 [58:32] should be on social media where they [58:34] encouraged young girls are encouraged to [58:35] sexualize themselves. If they start [58:37] having suicidal ideiation, they are sent [58:40] an email that says verbatim, here are [58:42] some images on suicide we might we [58:44] thought you might find interesting. But [58:46] also, it's created unreasonable [58:47] expectations for a lot of young men and [58:49] young women about what they need to look [58:50] like. If they haven't made millions of [58:52] dollars, if they aren't on a private jet [58:54] going to Coachella, if they don't have a [58:56] boyfriend with a six-pack, if they if [58:58] they don't look just amazing all the [58:59] time, I think it creates tremendous [59:01] anxiety and unreasonable expectations. [59:04] But I do, you know, so I would argue [59:07] that who's Okay, so who's at fault? [59:09] We're at fault. in that as we keep [59:12] hoping or waiting for the better angels [59:14] of tech CEOs to show up. That's not [59:16] going to happen. I've been working my [59:18] whole life with CEOs, they're going to [59:19] make incremental decisions to do [59:21] whatever moves the stock price up. [59:23] That's their job. That's capitalism. [59:24] Their job is to take a set of resources, [59:27] figure out an offering where they get [59:28] more than they paid to garner those [59:31] resources and create shareholder value. [59:33] They will do anything to do that. That's [59:35] their job. And then we're supposed to [59:37] tax them such that we can build our [59:38] roads, take care of our veterans, and [59:41] have a set of laws so they don't get out [59:43] of control. So that they don't lie and [59:44] say, "No, smoking is not addictive." And [59:46] then our mothers, our sisters, and our [59:48] dads start dying, right? We have [59:50] regulation. We are net beneficiaries [59:52] from fossil fuels and pesticides, but we [59:55] still have an EPA and an FDA. There's [59:58] absolutely no regulation on big tech. [60:00] There's more regulation in this mic than [60:01] there is on big tech because they have [60:04] weaponized Washington and money and [60:06] Citizens United. There are more [60:08] full-time lobbyists living in Washington [60:10] DC working for Amazon, one company, than [60:14] there are sitting US senators. So, they [60:16] have very effectively avoided all [60:19] regulation to the point where they [60:20] basically run unfettered, whether it's [60:22] bots, whether it's harm to children, [60:24] whether it's letting bad actors try and [60:26] influence elections. and they in my [60:29] opinion if your content can be reverse [60:31] engineered to self harm among teens. If [60:34] your podcast if we could prove [60:36] statistically that your podcast was [60:38] resulting in self harm among teenage [60:40] girls, this podcast would be shut down. [60:43] You would be sued and you would [60:45] eventually decide to go out of business. [60:46] >> Yeah. Well, if we were harming people [60:48] appropriately so [60:49] >> I would argue big tech does that and [60:51] more every day. And these cases that [60:54] just came down actually one in LA that [60:55] found Google liable. Do you realize that [60:57] the New Mexico attorney general, do you [61:00] know what he did in his case? He created [61:02] an account posing as a 12-year-old girl [61:04] and within minutes he was getting [61:06] messages and solicitations from known [61:08] sexual abusers. That was their first [61:10] piece of evidence that if you create an [61:12] account and you say you're a 12-year-old [61:14] girl, within hours they were getting [61:16] overtures from known sexual predators. [61:20] So, the fact that this company can [61:21] target you and know that you're that I'm [61:24] wearing WBY Parkers and start serving me [61:26] ads by looking at the screen or know [61:28] that I'm at Coachella listening to David [61:30] Burn and start serving me albums of [61:32] David Burn's greatest hits, then they [61:34] can figure out that a 12-year-old girl [61:36] shouldn't be getting overtures from [61:38] 55-year-old men. I'll bracket that [61:40] sentence, right? [61:41] very fair and very important statement [61:44] that if there were some balance of [61:45] optimization towards uh real protections [61:49] that that is important [61:50] >> but they made I think 11 billion last [61:52] year from people under the age of 18 but [61:54] you asked who's to blame we're to blame [61:57] because we haven't elected people who [61:59] are willing to hold these companies [62:01] accountable and they are sole mission is [62:04] to get reelected and in 97% of elections [62:06] whoever raises the most money gets [62:08] reelected and these companies are now [62:10] the fastest growing expense line amongst [62:12] big tech isn't AI as a percentage basis [62:15] it isn't R&D isn't capex it's lobbying [62:18] because the the greatest ROI in history [62:21] is spending money on politicians I give [62:24] money to politicians because I'm getting [62:26] more politically active and it doesn't [62:28] surprise me that they're [ __ ] the most [62:30] disappointing thing is what cheap [ __ ] [62:32] they are if I get $50,000 with a senator [62:35] he'll have dinner with me when he's in [62:36] New York or she because they have to [62:40] because the system is set up such that [62:42] whoever raises the most money gets [62:43] elected and big tech has figured that [62:45] out. So until we have the judgment to [62:49] elect people who are willing to stand up [62:51] to big tech and actually implement safe [62:53] and common sense regulation, I don't [62:55] want them to go out of business. Let our [62:56] thoroughbreds run. I actually believe [62:58] the the American model of less [63:00] regulation versus more is one of the [63:02] reasons we're much more successful than [63:03] Europe, which hasn't grown in 20 years. [63:06] But this has gotten to a point where we [63:07] seem to have a total lack of regard for [63:09] our children's well-being and the fact [63:11] that Americans hate each other and that [63:14] we're kind of eating ourselves from the [63:15] inside out. So again, we need an EPA and [63:18] an FDA or some sort of equivalent for [63:21] big tech, especially with AI. But I want [63:23] to acknowledge the point. None of this [63:25] could have happened without fossil [63:26] fuels. There is a trade-off here, right? [63:29] Pesticides are important for our food [63:32] safety, but there is an FDA. We have [63:35] decided to just let big tech run [63:37] unfettered. And I think it's been gotten [63:39] to the point where it's pretty damaging [63:41] for society. I think we've robbed kids. [63:43] My kids are in the kill zone, 15 and 18. [63:45] I think they've been robbed of a lot of [63:47] their youth. I understand this [ __ ] And [63:49] I have a son who has device addiction [63:51] who will lie, take his phone, say he [63:53] doesn't feel well, take his phone into [63:54] the bathroom for 45 minutes, and I have [63:56] to bang on the door and jokingly scream, [63:58] "Start masturbating." Because this kid [64:01] is addicted to Tik Tok. what the British [64:04] did to the Chinese in terms of getting [64:06] them addicted to opium. I think that the [64:08] Chinese via poor uh via poorest [64:10] platforms that are shareholder driven in [64:11] the GRU are addicting our youth and [64:14] we're going to raise a generation of [64:16] civic nonprofit and military leaders who [64:18] [ __ ] hate America. We are teaching [64:21] kids to hate each other, hate America, [64:23] hate every special interest group, hate [64:25] every ideology that doesn't fit their [64:27] own. And there's no grace around what it [64:30] means now fortunate are we to be [64:32] American. And I think at the center of [64:34] it is a total lack of regulation amongst [64:37] these incredibly brilliant companies. [64:39] The most technologically sophisticated, [64:41] deepest pocketed companies in the world [64:43] are trying to sequester our youth from [64:45] us and they're stealing youth. The [64:47] number of kids who see their their [64:49] friends every day has been cut in half [64:51] the last 20 years. there. Men between [64:53] the ages of 20 and 30 are spending less [64:55] time outdoors, Andrew, than prison [64:57] inmates. We are robbing youth because we [65:00] refuse we refuse to um regulate these [65:03] companies. So, do I want these companies [65:06] to go away? Do I think they're bad [65:07] people? No. But we have a system that [65:09] values wealth and shareholder value [65:11] above all. And so, tech CEOs and their [65:14] boards will make a series of incremental [65:16] decisions regardless of the the damage [65:19] to the public. and we have a set of [65:21] elected leaders that don't do their job [65:23] and that is they're there to prevent a [65:24] tragedy to the commons and it's [65:26] Democrats and Republicans. So, it comes [65:29] down to very boring [ __ ] Unless we [65:30] reform Citizens United, unless we [65:32] dejerrymander [65:34] uh the United States Congress, money is [65:36] going to win. And these companies have [65:38] more money. But no, I would push back. I [65:41] think these companies are starting to do [65:42] a lot of damage to our youth. I'm [65:45] worried my kids are going to grow up so [65:47] used to getting dopa so easily and [65:49] squeezing it so fast and this is your [65:51] field that we're flushing into society a [65:55] series of of young people who are so [65:57] ready for addiction because they're so [65:59] used to getting an automatic dopa by [66:01] just flipping out their phone really [66:03] fast. One thing that um I don't think [66:06] I've emphasized enough on this podcast [66:09] this and certainly not this but other [66:11] episodes as well is um a kind of reframe [66:13] around the dopamine and phones. I'm not [66:15] trying to correct you here but I think [66:16] it might be helpful for this discussion [66:19] and for people listening to um we need [66:22] to move our minds away from the idea [66:23] that the phone is providing these [66:25] dopamine hits because it's not. [66:28] The behavior with [66:30] social media, but phones generally is a [66:33] lot more akin to true clinical grade [66:36] obsessivecompulsive disorder. [66:39] >> Colleagues of mine that work on [66:40] obsessivempulsive disorder. I just want [66:42] to give a shout out to the the pioneer [66:43] of this field was a woman I I just [66:45] adored, Judith Rapaort. She passed away [66:47] recently. People can look up her obit. [66:49] There's a really nice one in the times. [66:52] Identified the brain structures [66:53] associated with this thing that we call [66:55] OCD, right? handashing, scratching, hair [66:57] pulling, you know, all the variations of [67:00] it. What defines obsessivecompulsive [67:02] disorder is that the engagement in the [67:05] behavior, the the compulsion doesn't [67:07] relieve the obsession. So to call [67:09] someone OCD because they need everything [67:11] perfect, but then when it's perfect, [67:12] they're like, "Okay, I can relax." [67:14] That's not OCD. OCD is when you engage [67:16] in a compulsive behavior over and over [67:18] again, and all it does is serve to [67:20] reinforce the obsession. That to me more [67:24] closely mimics what I see in terms of [67:26] phone use [67:28] >> than the idea that it's like no way this [67:29] amazing thing on the phone that comes [67:31] every once in a while. But after you've [67:33] spent a day or so on social media or on [67:36] YouTube, we are all engaging in a much [67:38] more passive slow degradation kind of [67:42] way that I'm sure impacts the dopamine [67:44] pathway. In fact, OCD is directly tied [67:46] to the dopamine pathway. So, I'm not [67:47] divorcing it from dopamine, but I think [67:49] if we started to look at our [67:50] relationship to the phone as more of an [67:53] induced obsessive compulsive disorder [67:57] >> than an addiction, I actually think [67:59] that's one of the potential ways out. [68:01] Not just con because words matter and [68:04] concepts matter, but because I think in [68:07] order to get out of that loop, you have [68:09] to see yourself from the outside and you [68:10] have to realize that you're being [68:12] hijacked. I think right now there's just [68:14] so much incentive for being on it, for [68:16] being in the bathroom, you looking at [68:17] the phone. [68:18] >> Look, I'm not addicted to my phone, but [68:21] I will tell you there are days when I [68:23] feel like I pick up that thing even [68:24] though I don't want to. [68:26] >> Yeah. [68:27] >> And that's different than addiction. I [68:29] know what addiction feels like. That's [68:30] not addiction. That's happening just [68:33] reflexively. People aren't even thinking [68:35] about it. The lack of awareness is is [68:37] just not there. So, you know, forgive me [68:39] for going on this on this tangent, but [68:41] as you're saying everything today, I'm [68:42] trying to think solutions and and I I [68:44] know Mark. I actually am am friendly [68:46] with Mark. So, I think they care. I do [68:48] think they care. I think they've created [68:50] something so big that it's very hard to [68:52] to navigate and keep up with [68:54] shareholders and all this stuff. But I [68:56] would love to see the world's [68:57] relationship to their phones and social [68:59] media change so that it is more in our [69:02] individual control, more uh benevolent, [69:05] >> but that's against their economic [69:07] interest and they'll fight that tooth [69:08] and nail. [69:08] >> But I wonder I wonder if there is a way [69:11] to incentivize that. [69:12] >> Well, let's talk about that. So, [69:14] >> I'm trying to think of solutions. Yeah. [69:16] >> So, let's move to solutions. Um, one [69:18] antitrust. I don't think I don't think [69:20] Meta should have ever been allowed to [69:22] buy Instagram. I think their ability, [69:23] their scale of data suppresses any [69:25] formidable competitor. Twothirds of all [69:27] social media now goes to one company. [69:29] And with a lack of competition, there's [69:31] really no oxygen for a company that [69:33] might say we're not going to allow [69:34] 18-year-olds on here. Any content that's [69:36] incendiary, anything that looks like [69:38] it's been weaponized by bots or might be [69:40] from a bad foreign actor, we're not [69:42] going to allow it. I think there's a lot [69:43] of parents and a lot of people that [69:44] would like to be on that platform. The [69:46] game's over. They've won. I I don't [69:48] think Google should have been allowed to [69:49] buy YouTube. And people say, "Well, [69:51] they're great companies." If YouTube was [69:54] divested from Google, the next day [69:57] YouTube would decide to start a basic [69:59] search algorithm and Google would start [70:01] another video platform and we'd have two [70:03] competitors and there'd be lower rents [70:04] on labor and on advertisers. Competition [70:07] is an amazing thing. These companies are [70:09] a set of distinct monopolies that [70:11] extract rents from labor, from the [70:14] consumer, and from the well-being of [70:15] America. So antitrust, Senator [70:17] Clolobashar has done great work here. [70:19] Basically, she says, "I'm overrun." [70:21] She's like, "I got a staff of 60 people. [70:22] There are 200 lawyers hired by Meta and [70:25] Facebook who are doing nothing but [70:26] getting in the way of anything to do [70:28] with antitrust and giving money to [70:30] people who will delay and obuscate [70:32] anything around antitrust. do removal of [70:34] section 230 for algorithmically elevated [70:37] content. Their basic premise is we're [70:40] not in the we're not a media company. [70:42] We're just a platform. We're just [70:43] putting stuff on a board. Well, okay. [70:46] But if you decide this content gets more [70:50] views, they elevate it. They make the [70:53] decision to elevate it. And sometimes [70:54] the content they elevate is not good for [70:57] the mental health of America. It tears [70:59] of the fabric of America. I think if you [71:02] al algorithmically elevate content, you [71:04] should be subject to the same liability [71:07] as say Newscore. When News Corp and Fox [71:10] told its on-air anchors to repeat a lie [71:13] that they knew was a lie that Smartmatic [71:16] voting machines had been weaponized by [71:17] Ugo Chavez and they knew it was a lie [71:20] and then Smartmatic sues them and says [71:22] you caused us economic harm. They had to [71:24] pay $750 million fine. What happened on [71:27] Fox was a dumpster fire compared to the [71:29] nuclear mushroom cloud of what happened [71:30] on Facebook that day. But these naent [71:33] platforms which in 1997 we were trying [71:36] to give them running room. Those [71:37] protections are in place for tech [71:40] platforms that are not in place for [71:42] media companies. So if you [71:43] algorithmically elevate content, you are [71:45] now a media company. You should be [71:47] subject to the same liability as every [71:49] other media company. And then finally [71:51] three, agegate this [ __ ] The downside [71:54] of Instagram and YouTube for 15 year [71:57] olds is way greater than the upside. And [72:00] people who say to me, "Scott, this is [72:01] about parenting." That's a tell for they [72:03] don't have kids. This is where they get [72:05] their homework. And my colleague at NYU, [72:08] Adam Alter, who also has an appointment [72:10] at the psychology department, said when [72:11] you take kids off of screens totally, it [72:14] actually is more damaging to their [72:15] mental health because they're ostracized [72:17] from all social activity. So, and what's [72:20] happened, the greatest uptick in school [72:22] scores in recent history is when they do [72:26] what my buddy Jonathan Hyde suggests do, [72:28] these schools do, and they ban their [72:29] phones. So, I think there are common [72:32] sense solutions that keep a lot of the [72:34] good stuff these companies do while [72:36] recognizing, well, maybe a 14-year-old [72:38] shouldn't be spending seven hours a day [72:40] on Tik Tok or Instagram while his or her [72:42] single mother is at work and can't [72:44] police it. So, I think there are common [72:46] sense solutions and a meeting of the [72:47] minds here, but everything I propose, [72:49] they will spend tens if not hundreds of [72:51] millions of dollars to get in the way of [72:54] and make sure it never happens again. [72:56] >> I really appreciate your answer. I I [72:58] like to think that they are listening, [72:59] especially in the wake of these recent [73:01] lawsuits um where they had to pay out, [73:03] granted a drop in the ocean compared to [73:06] their total revenue. But those were very [73:08] public cases and maybe I'm overly [73:11] optimistic. I I like to think that they [73:14] care enough to pay attention. I mean, [73:15] look, many of those guys, it's mostly [73:17] guys running those companies. Now, [73:19] YouTube used to be a woman, but now most [73:20] all of them are run by guys. They have [73:22] kids. I can guarantee their kids don't [73:24] spend a ton of time on their phones that [73:26] they're [73:27] >> they send them to schools that are not [73:28] allowed to be on screens, [73:29] >> right? [73:29] >> They're doing their job. We're not doing [73:31] ours. I don't even kind of resent them. [73:32] I think Mark Zuckerberg has been [73:34] especially damaging, but they're doing [73:36] their job. Capitalist society has to [73:38] have for-profit companies that within [73:40] the bounds of law make a lot of money. [73:43] Look, you can't you can't have a navy. [73:45] You can't have innovation. You can't [73:47] have, you know, parks unless you have [73:50] the tax revenue to support this [ __ ] [73:53] So, we need our thoroughbreds to run. [73:55] They're great companies, but there's [73:57] basic common sense regulation that [73:59] should be applied that they've managed [74:01] to delay and opuscate and ensure it [74:03] never happens to them. [74:04] I'd like to take a quick break and [74:06] acknowledge our sponsor, Function. [74:08] Function provides over 160 advanced lab [74:11] tests to give you a clear snapshot of [74:13] your bodily health. This snapshot gives [74:16] insights into your heart health, hormone [74:17] health, autoimmune function, nutrient [74:20] levels, and much more. They've also [74:21] recently added access to advanced MRI [74:24] and CT scans. Function not only provides [74:26] testing of over 160 biomarkers key to [74:29] your physical and mental health, it also [74:31] analyzes these results and provides [74:33] recommendations for improving your [74:35] health from top doctors. For example, in [74:37] a recent test with function, I learned [74:39] that some of my blood lipids were [74:40] slightly out of range. As a result, I [74:43] decided to start supplementing with [74:44] nattokinise, which can naturally help [74:46] reduce LDL cholesterol. And it did. In a [74:49] follow-up test, I could confirm that [74:51] this strategy worked. My blood lipids [74:53] are now back where I want them in range. [74:55] Comprehensive lab testing of the sort [74:57] that Function offers is so important for [74:59] health. And while I've been doing it for [75:01] years, it's always been overly [75:03] complicated and expensive. But now with [75:05] Function, it's extremely easy and [75:07] affordable. To learn more, visit [75:09] functionhealth.com/huberman [75:12] and use the code hubman for a $50 credit [75:14] towards your membership. [75:15] >> Glad you mentioned the Navy. Recently, I [75:17] w was invited out to the Naval Academy [75:20] in Annapolis, and was had the privilege [75:22] of giving a talk to 4,000 midshipmen, [75:25] which includes both young men and women. [75:27] >> It was an amazing experience. I'll tell [75:29] you this, a guy who's been a guest on [75:31] this podcast was the one that organized [75:33] this. Coleman Ruiz has amazing life [75:34] story. He's not particularly public [75:36] facing, but amazing story um of his own [75:40] life. Um and okay, so you go there and [75:43] all these young men and women are of [75:45] course [75:46] >> in their, you know, cadet fatigues and [75:49] going about they live two to a dorm [75:50] room. Um they do PT, physical activity [75:53] every morning at 5:00 a.m. Lunch was the [75:56] most incredible experience. [75:58] >> You walk into a dining hall with [75:59] thousands of men and women. Tons of [76:03] noise. [76:03] >> Mhm. [76:04] >> A bell goes off. Everyone's quiet. [76:07] Everyone sits down. A bell goes off. [76:10] Everyone starts eating. 15 minutes [76:11] later, bell goes off. Everyone stands up [76:13] and walks out. Everyone has to play play [76:16] a sport competitively. [76:18] Everyone there is forbidden from using [76:21] their phone [76:22] >> most all of the day and night. One [76:26] member of this dormer might be studying [76:27] while their roommate is sleeping. Every [76:30] single question was about how to be a [76:31] better human being physically, mentally, [76:34] emotionally. Um, and this visit was [76:38] right in the like early days of the the [76:41] recent uh war with Iran. So, they have a [76:44] lot to worry about and they're very [76:46] close to all these things. A young woman [76:47] came up to me and told me that she's [76:48] part of the uh you know the the space [76:50] program now, the military space program. [76:52] >> Amazing. Like just a complete contrast [76:55] to everything that we're talking about. [76:58] >> I thought to myself like goodness like [77:01] these people, young people like this [77:03] still exist. [77:04] >> Yeah. All firm handshakes, all eye [77:06] contact, and by the way, every color you [77:09] could possibly imagine. Every color you [77:11] could possibly imagine, you know, um, [77:14] every stature you could possibly [77:16] imagine. Every income class I would ask [77:18] people, where are you from? You know, [77:19] part of the meet and greet. The problem [77:20] was they were like, you know, my problem [77:21] is I actually want to know about [77:23] >> uh what where people are from, what [77:24] their name is, what they're interested [77:25] in, that it can just take days, right? [77:27] But it was incredible. [77:29] >> And I thought to myself, okay, there's [77:31] hope. Like we we came out of there, our [77:32] team was like, "Yeah, like there's [77:34] hope." Okay, it's associated with the [77:36] military. I'm sure people will will [77:37] scratch at that point, but [77:39] >> like thank God that these kids and this [77:42] thing that we call the Navy exists. [77:44] >> Mhm. [77:45] >> Because it gives it was so inspiring. I [77:47] It made me level up as a 50-year-old man [77:50] who thinks these guys [ __ ] mostly [77:52] together. Emphasis on mostly. I was [77:54] like, "Whoa, I like step it up." Now, [77:57] probably their only quote unquote flaw [78:00] was I did a poll. There were a lot of [78:01] questions about nicotine [78:03] >> and I asked approximately what [78:04] percentage of the room takes nicotine [78:06] every day and I would say about 20 to [78:08] 30% of the hands in the room went up. [78:09] Nicotine is in major use in young people [78:12] >> using the [78:13] >> the oral nicotines. Yeah. Which by the [78:15] way don't cause cancer but yes is very [78:16] addictive. Raise blood pressure and you [78:18] know I I'm not encouraging people to do [78:20] it. But this brings me around to a [78:22] separate point. I just wanted to kind of [78:23] paint that picture but to a separate [78:25] point. You and I have never had a public [78:27] argument, nor are we going to now, about [78:29] alcohol or about cannabis, but you and I [78:32] share somewhat different views on on [78:33] alcohol. I've been [78:35] >> very uh vocal. Um, and perhaps our most [78:38] popular episode ever was an episode on [78:40] alcohol. I didn't foresee that, but [78:42] >> um, and the deal is zero is better than [78:45] any if we're strictly looking at health. [78:47] Two per week is probably fine. If you're [78:49] going to drink more, you should probably [78:51] do a bunch of other things to reduce [78:52] inflammation and offset it and get good [78:55] sleep and etc., etc. [78:57] >> I'm not telling people what to do. They [78:58] should just know what they're doing. [79:00] >> You've made the argument quite aptly [79:01] that alcohol can be an important social [79:03] lubricant for [79:05] >> young and older people [79:07] >> so that they can socialize and have a [79:09] life. [79:11] >> I worry that if young people now drink [79:14] more, they're going to end up drinking [79:15] alone. They're gonna end up [79:18] >> masturbating into porn more alone. [79:21] >> They're gonna end up with more hangovers [79:23] after all their alone behavior. I think [79:25] what you've argued for is the notion of [79:28] healthy fraternity, healthy [79:32] >> dating and [79:33] >> socializing. You've mentioned bars a [79:35] couple times, alcohol as something that [79:38] can bring people together in a positive [79:39] way. Mhm. [79:40] >> Um, if you don't mind, if you could [79:42] elaborate on that and maybe I'll just [79:43] toss out cannabis as as another one [79:45] because cannabis has problems and I I'll [79:48] acknowledge benefits of its own. [79:50] >> So, I want to go to the first thing [79:51] first is uh I want to talk just touch on [79:54] Navy. I went to Annapolis when I was 17. [79:56] And it was because my dad was looking to [79:57] get out of paying for college and [79:59] decided I should go to Annapolis and he [80:01] took me and we did a tour and it it you [80:05] know we weren't very sophisticated and [80:07] it became so clear so fast that I was [80:10] totally unqualified for Annapolis. Like [80:12] the kids the average SAT these are these [80:14] are the finest young men and women in [80:17] the world and and also we you have to [80:20] get a recommendation from a senator and [80:22] it was just so ridiculous that we were [80:23] even there. I was just not of that [80:24] quality and that standard. But my dad [80:26] was in the Royal Navy and decided go to [80:28] Annapolis because we don't have to pay [80:30] for it. Anyways, but that was the last [80:31] time I was at Annapolis. But if I could [80:34] have one policy, so I'm advising a lot [80:36] of Democrats running for president, [80:38] which is like 40 of them right now who [80:40] all claim they're not running. They're [80:41] all running. If you call me and and say [80:44] you're really interested in my [80:45] viewpoint, it means you want my money [80:46] and you're running for president. And I [80:47] just say, "Look, that's fine. Come on [80:49] the podcast and I'll write you a check." [80:51] If I could have one policy, one blanket, [80:54] if I had a magic one, one policy, it'd [80:56] be mandatory national service. If you [80:58] look at the lowest levels of young adult [81:00] depression in the West, it's two [81:03] countries. It's Israel and Singapore. [81:05] And despite all the existential threats [81:07] facing Israel, uh they what what does [81:10] man mandatory national service do? It [81:13] gives you the sense that you're serving [81:14] the agency of something bigger than [81:15] yourself. It gives you purpose. You're [81:17] handling dangerous equipment. It's the [81:19] great equalizer. You don't care that [81:21] this gay kid is totally different than [81:22] you. You You respond to his or her [81:24] character and competence because if [81:26] you're getting fired on, you don't give [81:28] a [ __ ] how rich their father is. All you [81:30] want to know is, is this person good at [81:32] what they do? And you put people's lives [81:34] in your hands and they put their life in [81:36] your hands. And you're serving in the in [81:38] the agency of something bigger than [81:39] yourself. I spent time with an IDF [81:41] battalion [81:43] um in Israel and had the same kind of [81:45] experience it sounds like you had at [81:48] Annapolis. These are young, beautiful, [81:50] fit people outside all day meeting [81:52] friends, mentors, and mates. In [81:54] Singapore, the president there, who's [81:56] arguably one of the greatest leaders of [81:58] the last century, said, "This is the [81:59] most religiously diverse society in the [82:01] world. We're going to have ethnic [82:03] violence. There'll be a strong man who [82:04] will weaponize this diversity and get [82:07] people to turn against each other. So, [82:08] we need a different religion, and it's [82:10] going to be the flag. And we need to we [82:12] need to get people praying to the flag [82:14] again." And if you look at the great [82:15] legislation in America in the 60s and [82:17] 70s, which was probably the most [82:18] productive, unified time in America, [82:22] it's because many of our elected leaders [82:23] had all served in the same uniform. And [82:25] they saw themselves as Americans before [82:26] they saw themselves as Republicans or [82:28] Democrats. And I'm not just saying [82:30] military service, senior care, donating [82:33] time at a no-kill animal shelter, being [82:35] a smoke jumper. There's a lot of ways to [82:37] serve, but I think young Americans would [82:40] benefit so enormously from getting [82:43] outside of their own circle and seeing [82:45] just how wonderful America and Americans [82:47] are and and having a chance. And not [82:50] only that, people say, "Well, it's easy [82:51] for you to say you've aged out." I can [82:53] tell you as a father of boys, if we set [82:55] it up well and invested in it, I think [82:57] they would really enjoy a rotation [82:59] through different parts of America and [83:00] different opportunities to serve. So the [83:03] one thing I would do going back to [83:04] Annapolis and the IDF and what they do [83:06] in Singapore is mandatory national [83:08] service on drinking. [83:11] First, my acknowledgement as it relates [83:13] to the intake of any substance. If it's [83:16] Andrew Huberman or Scott Galloway, defer [83:18] to Andrew Huberman's advice. I just want [83:20] to say that upfront. You just have the [83:22] qualifications and the domain expertise [83:24] here. I think personally the risks to a [83:27] 25-year-old liver are dwarfed by the [83:30] risks of social isolation. [83:32] And I worry that with 40% fewer pubs now [83:35] postco in Britain and a lack of mating [83:37] and a lack of of connection that the [83:40] data I've seen and correct me if I'm [83:41] wrong that 95% of people are able to [83:44] integrate alcohol and drugs into their [83:46] life without serious consequences. If [83:49] you have a history of addiction, if you [83:52] uh for whatever reason don't enjoy it, [83:55] then by all means avoid it. If people [83:57] are telling you that you're having an [83:59] issue or a problem or it's getting in [84:00] the way of your work life or you're one [84:03] of those people that gets violent or [84:04] mean under the influence, then for God's [84:06] sakes, tone it down. But what I ask [84:08] people is to look back on their younger [84:10] days and say, "What is the most [84:12] important thing in your life? [84:13] Relationships, friendships, finding [84:15] someone to mate with." And I ask them, [84:17] "Did alcohol play a role?" You know, [84:19] it's not easy to come in and lean in for [84:21] a kiss without a glass of wine. Or let [84:23] me put it this way, it is easier with a [84:24] glass of wine. It's a lot of fun. I [84:26] smoked a lot of pot and I drank a lot of [84:28] alcohol in my 20s and in college and it [84:30] created a lot of wonderful bonding [84:32] moments. And so what I'm saying there's [84:34] a balance and a tradeoff. And what I [84:36] would suggest is that everyone needs to [84:38] make their own decision. But what scares [84:39] me is the anti-alcohol movement in [84:42] remote work has led to a level of [84:44] isolation and fewer moments where people [84:47] can bond, where people are willing to [84:49] take a risk and go up to a strange [84:51] person and say, "Hey, what's going on?" [84:53] So, I worry that the anti-alcohol [84:55] movement, what I see among young people [84:57] is that while they've demonized alcohol, [84:59] it's not that they're not getting high, [85:02] they're just doing a [ __ ] ton of drugs. [85:04] And the thing I don't like about many of [85:05] these drugs is that they're more solo [85:08] activity or small group activity. I [85:09] think alcohol is a group of people, I [85:12] like to think, meeting new strangers. [85:14] Whereas when I was in college, all the [85:16] dudes who were doing cocaine were it was [85:18] because they had no sexual currency and [85:20] they would sequester a woman who liked [85:21] cocaine and go into a bathroom. [85:23] >> That's creepy as [ __ ] [85:24] >> Totally creepy as [ __ ] And eventually [85:26] everyone's like, if a dude's into [85:28] cocaine, it means he has no game. I find [85:30] with people when they do drugs, it's a [85:32] small group of people and they sequester [85:34] and it's isolating. Whereas with alcohol [85:36] and to a certain extent with marijuana, [85:38] I found it's more social and more [85:40] bonding. So absolutely be cognizant of [85:42] your addiction history. Absolutely. Be [85:45] mindful of that or any other substance [85:47] you're addicted to. But I believe, and [85:50] I've said this, I've said this on Bill [85:51] Mer a bunch and I've gotten some [ __ ] [85:52] but I think there's some truth here. I [85:54] think young people need to drink more, [85:56] go out, and make a series of bad [85:58] decisions that might pay off. I don't [86:00] think there's anything wrong with some [86:02] alcohol. I I I worry that the risks of [86:05] loneliness [86:07] far outweigh the risks of alcohol and [86:09] that alcohol has been demonized as [86:11] something that if you take one trip of [86:12] alcohol, drink of alcohol, you're going [86:14] to get cancer or you're going to become [86:15] an addict. And I don't think the data is [86:17] there to support that. [86:19] >> I really appreciate the candid um [86:22] expression of where you stand. I agree [86:24] that isolation is worse than alcohol and [86:27] it's compounded by alcohol. So to make [86:29] that uh point clear, I went to UC Santa [86:32] Barbara. We majored. [86:33] >> Speaking of alcohol, [86:34] >> it was like it was part of the general [86:35] education. [86:36] >> I remember they had sand in the dorms. [86:37] I'm like, why didn't I go to school [86:38] here? [86:39] >> Well, you know, it did select for [86:40] alcoholism if people had that [86:42] predisposition. And you had to be [86:43] disciplined to get your work done. You [86:45] know, my messaging around alcohol was um [86:49] it was intended to land in three places. [86:54] One, people who don't like drinking but [86:56] felt that they had to got a great reason [86:58] to not drink. Many, many people wrote to [87:00] me and said, "Thank you. I always feel [87:01] like garbage after drinking. I don't [87:03] want to drink. Now I understand why why [87:04] I feel like garbage. [87:07] >> It's not that I was casting it toward a [87:09] particular age group, but there are many [87:10] people who hit their 40s or 50s and [87:13] they're like, "God, I'm aging fast and I [87:15] look like [ __ ] and I sleep like [ __ ] and [87:17] my workouts are no good." And [87:19] >> you might be drinking too much, right? [87:20] >> And then there are the optimizers. There [87:22] are people that are really just going [87:23] for maximum vitality. not just [87:26] longevity, but maximum vitality, which [87:28] is to me one of the most important [87:30] things. In any case, people should do as [87:33] they wish, but know what they're doing, [87:35] provided they're not harming anyone [87:36] else. There's one thing that I want to [87:39] >> kind of, you know, lump in with this [87:41] discussion about alcohol and your [87:43] statement, which on the top contour I [87:44] totally agree with. Go out, drink, and [87:46] make a few bad decisions and probably [87:47] some good ones, but uh badish. [87:49] >> Badish. Right. So, this is the thing. [87:52] Phones. [87:53] >> Yeah. Somebody says the wrong thing, [87:55] they loosen up too much. Now it's not a [87:57] problem. Three years ago, you might be [88:00] sitting in front of HR. [88:02] >> You might, your classmates might isolate [88:04] you, right? You were in a fraternity. I [88:06] was in a fraternity. I grew up in the [88:08] fraternity of skateboarding, punk rock [88:09] music, and just the fraternity of Y [88:11] chromosomes. Guys drink, they start [88:13] saying stupid [ __ ] [88:14] >> With phones around, stupid [ __ ] is [88:16] recorded. [88:17] >> When stupid [ __ ] is recorded, it can be [88:19] very harmful. Mhm. [88:21] >> And when you're drinking, you make less [88:24] filtered decisions about what to say [88:26] >> than when you're not drinking. So, I'm [88:28] not pushing back in that sense, but I [88:30] could understand why a guy in his 20s or [88:32] 30s would be afraid. A guy that would [88:34] never ever ever push himself on a woman, [88:38] let alone something far worse, would [88:40] never ever drug somebody or anything. [88:41] So, I'm not talking about the Bill Cosby [88:43] examples or this. I'm talking about the [88:45] the fear that exists in a lot of young [88:47] guys and probably should exist in a lot [88:50] of young women too nowadays based on [88:52] what we've observed in cancel culture in [88:54] particular. I'm just going to say a lot [88:55] of white women are afraid of the Karen [88:58] movement. [88:58] >> Mhm. [88:59] >> Right. That if they say anything I think [89:02] even beloved Billy Isish whose music I [89:04] love was called out for something. She [89:06] she did a sort of impersonation of a [89:08] Asian person to famous people, right? [89:10] Okay. Always going to happen, right? But [89:12] people see famous people get into these [89:14] situations, they go, "Oh my gosh." So, [89:16] do I think Billy Isish is a No. And I [89:19] love her music. And she was mortified. [89:21] And she apologized. [89:24] >> But it's enough to make people go [89:27] >> 100%. [89:28] >> And like maybe I just stay in my room [89:29] and like scroll on Instagram, you know? [89:32] So, you can kind of get why the the fear [89:35] of drinking might also compound some of [89:38] this, you know, social media stuff that [89:39] we're talking about. [89:41] >> Yeah. So, I want to acknowledge the [89:42] point. I would like to say or I hope [89:44] that at some point I'm really glad a [89:46] camera wasn't following me around 24 by7 [89:48] when I was 18. I can't imagine [89:50] >> that one time you said that one dumb [89:52] thing, right? I [89:52] >> I just can't imagine. What I do think we [89:54] are headed to though, I'd like to think [89:56] is that in an era of social media and [89:57] phones that slowly but surely we're [90:00] heading to a point of more grace where [90:02] we forgive people, especially young [90:03] people. So there, and there's been a [90:06] bunch of movements where a lot of young [90:07] people did things I really disagreed [90:09] with on campus after October the 7th. I [90:11] was less angry at them than some of the [90:13] faculty cuz I'm like, I cut an [90:15] 18-year-old a lot of grace, right? Or I [90:17] try to. The thing I would push back on [90:20] is that I think there's certain looking [90:21] glasses in people's soul. [90:24] And one of like how they treat their [90:25] pets and how they behave when they're [90:27] drunk. And what I find is for people who [90:30] for every person who would say something [90:32] stupid, there's more people when they [90:33] get drunk who say, you know, I just [90:35] think you're wonderful. I'm so impressed [90:36] by you. Or walk up to a woman and say, I [90:39] just love your dress. Or, God, you have [90:41] such a beautiful smile. Or just walk up [90:43] to her to begin with and say, and [90:45] express interest. Expressing interest to [90:47] someone is a wonderful thing. [90:49] >> Or do you want to dance? [90:50] >> Yeah. It says I It says I saw you and by [90:53] the way you move and the way you smile I [90:56] I I I want you. I'm interested in you. [90:59] That's a wonderful [ __ ] thing. And so [91:02] my sense is that for for every negative [91:06] thing, it may of course increase [91:10] someone's [91:11] if someone's bad judgment is is revealed [91:13] in an awful way, they got bigger [91:15] problems in alcohol. What it also does [91:17] is lower inhibitions. And I generally [91:19] think the majority of people are good [91:20] people. And I have found that the [91:23] majority of my friends and the majority [91:24] of people I'm with [91:27] when they have a little bit of alcohol, [91:28] it lowers their inhibitions and they're [91:31] more likely to hug you and they're more [91:33] likely to say how much they appreciate [91:34] the friendship. You know, [91:38] when I when I was younger, I don't know [91:39] if you ever did this, when I had a few [91:40] drinks, I used to call my mom, you know, [91:42] and tell her how much she meant to me. [91:44] >> Don't let my mom hear that, please. I [91:46] didn't. But I I think that alcohol to a [91:49] certain extent without getting into [91:50] issues of abuse which are much bigger [91:53] lowers your inhibitions but you get to [91:55] see to a certain extent that real person [91:57] and I know a lot of people will say well [91:58] that's pathetic that you have to be the [92:00] real you under the influence but I think [92:02] a lot of people reveal some wonderful [92:04] things about themselves and also have [92:06] the courage to reveal those things to [92:08] other people and I worry that there's so [92:10] many barriers now that people young [92:12] people just aren't connecting. So I just [92:15] want to acknowledge the point. I think [92:16] you have to be really cognizant. It's [92:19] not a great idea unless you know you can [92:20] handle alcohol to drink at work at a at [92:22] a professional function. It can [ __ ] up [92:24] your whole career. Oh, I mean one thing [92:26] that I observed coming up through the [92:28] academic ranks and that just I could not [92:30] believe it that at every gathering where [92:32] you have graduate students and faculty [92:34] members and postocs they it was like the [92:37] happy hour was like sort of the [92:39] highlight of the meeting for many people [92:40] and it became the place where lot you in [92:43] theory everyone meets at the bar to talk [92:45] about the data from the day right like [92:47] at these meetings in reality [92:50] 90% of the problems that existed between [92:53] faculty and students and postocs and [92:55] faculty and faculty that were [92:57] independently married and all that [92:59] stuff. Alcohol facilitated that. I [93:02] really believe that. I saw it over and [93:04] over and overs caused an immense number [93:06] of problems and it was funded by grants. [93:08] I mean, I'm not like I'm I'm a big [93:10] proponent of trying to and I I [93:12] >> have worked very very hard on the phone [93:13] to try and keep NIH funding at least [93:15] from to not getting cut and it looks [93:17] like it hasn't to not get the indirects [93:18] cut. This is a kind of academic, you [93:20] know, inside ball stuff, but looks like, [93:22] you know, it could be far better, but, [93:23] you know, at least the cuts that were [93:25] going to happen didn't happen. So, I I I [93:27] the NIH funded my career. I wouldn't be [93:29] here if it wasn't for the NIH. I had [93:31] grants, reviewed grants, etc. But the [93:34] idea that you could spend money on [93:35] alcohol, right, back way back when and [93:38] then people were gathering around [93:40] alcohol, it created a lot of problems. [93:41] Now, students drinking with other [93:43] students, less of an issue. [93:45] >> Well, let me let me propose some [93:46] negative reaction. [93:47] I think they should study and and [93:50] thoughtfully consider lowering the [93:51] drinking age back to 18. I live in the [93:53] UK and see by your face where this is [93:55] going. I live in the UK. [93:57] >> Military drinking age 18. I mean, I like [93:59] some of the things. [93:59] >> Well, if you're in the military, you can [94:00] drink under the age of 21 because the [94:02] idea is that if you're going to die for [94:03] your country, you should be able you're [94:04] adult enough to order a drink. So, [94:06] >> at least the logic is there. [94:07] >> That makes sense, right? But in the UK, [94:09] if you're with an adult at a meal, you [94:12] can order a beer at 17. And even without [94:13] an adult at the age of 18 in a pub, you [94:16] can order a beer. And when my son comes [94:18] home, he doesn't do it as often as I [94:19] would like, but when my son comes home [94:21] on the weekends from boarding school, I [94:22] like to take him to a local pub and we [94:24] have a beer. And I found out that after [94:26] one beer, he's more inclined to tell me [94:28] a little bit about what's going on with [94:30] him. And as a father, all you really [94:33] want, you just really want conversation [94:35] with your kids. You want to know what's [94:36] going on with them. And so he doesn't [94:38] get drunk. He He's not into alcohol. He [94:40] listens to you. He listens to other [94:41] people. is very wary of it. But I find [94:44] that easing young men and young women [94:47] into alcohol [94:49] as opposed to 21 and then they kind of [94:51] go, I don't know. I wonder if I wonder [94:53] if we should be lowering the drinking [94:54] age. And the reason we raised it was [94:55] Mothers Against Drunk Driving were very [94:57] effective and very on point because of [95:00] all the young people who were dying in [95:01] automobile accidents. [95:02] >> Remember that era? [95:03] >> I think it's gone way down because of [95:05] Uber and because of airbags. So, I'm [95:07] proposing, would it make sense to do a [95:09] study on whether you'd have more social [95:11] connection and perhaps less alcoholism [95:14] later in life if you let kids ease into [95:17] it at the age of 18? And if they can be [95:19] drafted, we're now trying to get, you [95:21] know, the administration is proposing [95:23] they be drafted. So, if a kid can be [95:24] drafted, shouldn't he or she have the [95:27] judgment to know when they can order a [95:28] beer or not? [95:29] >> All great arguments. I didn't know we [95:31] were going to end up with [95:31] >> Well, when you talk about cannabis, I [95:33] want to get your view. [95:34] >> Yeah. I smoked a [ __ ] ton of pot in [95:37] college. I can make a bong out of any [95:38] household item. I learned every line [95:40] from planet. [95:41] >> Got to make a pipe out of an apple. [95:42] That's a very That's like a 90s trick, [95:45] >> dude. That's That's sophomore. I can I [95:47] can I I can go much better than that. [95:49] Anyways, but then 22, got a job at [95:51] Morgan Stanley, got very focused on [95:54] getting my [ __ ] together, and I [95:55] basically didn't smoke for 20 or 25 [95:57] years now. I have trouble sleeping. I [95:59] have trouble winding my brain down. And [96:01] I take edibles. I do edibles probably [96:02] twice a week. If I'm amped or think I'm [96:06] going to have a tough time sleeping, [96:07] I'll take a 5 milligram edible. The [96:09] stuff that takes you down, I forget [96:11] which one that is. And it's been an [96:13] enhancement to my life. But I'm reading [96:14] a lot of stuff about potential psychosis [96:16] or whatever. [96:17] >> Not for you. You're like the psychosis [96:19] predisposition doesn't apply. You would [96:21] already know. You'd be psychotic by now. [96:22] >> There you go. Or I just haven't [96:24] acknowledged it. But it's been accretive [96:26] to my life. I really enjoy THC and I I [96:30] do it packaged so I know where it's come [96:31] come from. I like edibles because I like [96:34] the dosing of it. But I would argue that [96:37] THC is um something when my mom had [96:40] stomach cancer. Um I was living with her [96:43] and the only thing that worked for her [96:45] nausea was marijuana. And I I found [96:49] myself literally Andrew on the streets [96:51] of downtown Las Vegas trying to score [96:53] marijuana cuz I was too scared to travel [96:55] with it. And this was 20 July of 2004. [97:00] And I thought, Jesus Christ, here I am [97:02] on a street corner in this weird place [97:04] in Vegas trying to score marijuana for [97:05] my mom who has stomach cancer. So, you [97:09] know, I I I think there's some benefits [97:11] to Well, I'll stop there, but THC usage [97:14] I enjoy. I think it's been additive to [97:16] my life. [97:18] >> I'd like to take a quick break and [97:19] acknowledge one of our sponsors, [97:21] Element. Element is an electrolyte drink [97:23] that has everything you need and nothing [97:25] you don't. That means the electrolytes, [97:27] sodium, magnesium, and potassium, all in [97:29] the correct ratios, but no sugar. Proper [97:32] hydration is critical for brain and body [97:34] function. Even a slight degree of [97:36] dehydration, can diminish your cognitive [97:38] and physical performance. It's also [97:40] important that you get adequate [97:41] electrolytes. The electrolytes, sodium, [97:43] magnesium, and potassium, are vital for [97:46] the functioning of all cells in your [97:47] body, especially your neurons or your [97:49] nerve cells. Drinking Element makes it [97:51] very easy to ensure that you're getting [97:53] adequate hydration and adequate [97:55] electrolytes. My days tend to start [97:57] really fast, meaning I have to jump [97:59] right into work or right into exercise. [98:01] So, to make sure that I'm hydrated and I [98:03] have sufficient electrolytes, when I [98:04] first wake up in the morning, I drink 16 [98:06] to 32 ounces of water with an element [98:08] packet dissolved in it. I also drink [98:11] Element dissolved in water during any [98:12] kind of physical exercise that I'm [98:14] doing, especially on hot days when I'm [98:16] sweating a lot and losing water and [98:17] electrolytes. Element has a bunch of [98:19] great tasting flavors. In fact, I love [98:21] them all. I love the watermelon, the [98:23] raspberry, the citrus, and I really love [98:24] the lemonade flavor. So, if you'd like [98:26] to try Element, you can go to [98:28] drinkelement.com/huberman [98:30] to claim a free element sample pack with [98:32] any purchase. Again, that's [98:34] drinkelement.com/huberman [98:36] to claim a free sample pack. [98:38] >> Yeah, I think with THC, it's highly [98:40] individual. uh young males in particular [98:42] who have a predisposition genetic [98:44] predisposition to psychosis or bipolar [98:47] disorder need to be really careful [98:49] especially with high concentration THC [98:51] not just the edibles but they do need to [98:53] be careful I think that um young again [98:57] mostly young men who are challenged with [99:00] um apathy obesity self-loathing porn [99:05] masturbation addiction shouldn't be [99:07] using THC I I think [99:10] high agency, that seems to be the term [99:12] nowadays, right? Work the the guys that [99:14] you mentor, you know, a year in who are [99:17] um working out three times a week and [99:19] they're they have a goal and they're [99:21] hopefully seeking or in a relationship. [99:23] They have a different self view of [99:24] themselves. And um yeah, I I don't see [99:27] why that couldn't be a part of their [99:29] week. It'll nuke their REM sleep, you [99:31] know, to be specific. If they come off, [99:33] their dreams are going to be wild [99:34] because they'll get more REM sleep. But [99:37] creatives, there are a number of [99:38] creatives who can use it uh [99:39] appropriately to increase focus, get [99:41] them out of anxiety or get them to cope [99:43] with anxiety. And then there just as [99:45] many people that take it and it makes [99:46] them incredibly anxious. [99:48] >> So I think it's it's sort of on what [99:50] backdrop. And I think the alcohol thing [99:52] also is on what backdrop. If somebody's [99:54] overweight, not working out, you know, a [99:57] a guy in their 20s or 30s that's dealing [99:59] with, let's just paint a picture here. [100:00] He's like playing video games. He's not [100:03] like morbidly obese or anything, but [100:05] he's like kind of overweight and he's [100:06] kind of feels like [ __ ] He shouldn't be [100:08] drinking and smoking weed. He should be [100:10] going to the gym and get himself in [100:11] shape and then maybe have a couple beers [100:12] a week with his buddies. So, the context [100:15] really matters. [100:15] >> Well, I would argue never do substances [100:17] alone [100:18] >> and and during the week, try not to do [100:20] substances if you got to be on point the [100:22] next day. that it's something to be, you [100:24] know, it's a recreation. The thing I'm [100:26] curious to get your take on is one of [100:28] the things I'm working with some young [100:30] men on is um I think the most [100:33] underressearched addiction is porn. And [100:36] my fear is that [100:39] I mean, if you look at what again I go [100:40] back to big tech, big tech's trying to [100:42] convince young men, why go through the [100:44] pecking order and the effort of trying [100:46] to develop a friend group when you have [100:48] Reddit and Discord? Why go through the [100:50] [ __ ] of putting on a tie and trying [100:52] to go into the office and make a good [100:54] living and navigate the corporate world [100:56] when you think you can make money [100:58] trading stocks or crypto on Robin Hood [101:02] or Coinbase? And why would you go [101:04] through the effort, the expense, the [101:06] potential rejection of trying to have a [101:08] kindness practice, look good, work out, [101:11] endure rejection, all the expenditures [101:13] of going out and trying to get a date [101:15] when you have lifelike porn. And I'll [101:18] use myself as an example. When I was at [101:20] UCLA, [101:22] I graduated from UCLA with a 2.27 GPA, [101:24] which isn't easy because it means you [101:26] almost I failed nine classes, right? And [101:29] I still graduated. And by the way, talk [101:31] about a different age. We were both [101:32] children of the University of [101:33] California, UC San Diego. Talk about how [101:36] blessed we are. Talk about how just what [101:38] winds hurricane like winds we had in our [101:41] sales of prosperity. When I applied to [101:42] UCLA, admissions rate was 74%. Now it's [101:44] nine. Graduated with a 2.27. You know [101:46] what happened? Berkeley let me into [101:48] graduate school with a 2.27 GPA. But [101:51] anyways, back to UCLA. One of my [101:53] motivators for going on campus was that [101:57] I there was a non-zero probability that [101:59] I might meet a woman, establish contact [102:01] with her, see my buddies, maybe get her [102:04] to a fraternity party, or get her to go [102:06] on a date with me, and maybe at some [102:07] point be physical with her. That was an [102:09] enormous motivator for me. If I had [102:11] lifelike porn on my phone on my computer [102:14] screen 24 by7, I don't know if I would [102:17] have been as motivated to go on campus [102:18] as much and I there was little margin [102:21] for error in terms of going on campus a [102:24] few less times. And I worry that that [102:26] mojo, that desire to quite frankly go [102:29] out and make your own bad porn is being [102:31] reduced so much with lifelike porn that [102:34] men aren't evolving into risk-taking, [102:37] aggressive in a positive way men who are [102:40] motivated to dress well, to work out, to [102:43] approach strange women, to go through I [102:45] mean, it is hard. It is hard to find a [102:47] partner. And what I say to these men is [102:49] welcome to the [ __ ] work week. It's [102:51] been hard forever. That's the whole [102:52] point. Women are choosier than men. And [102:54] there's a reason, right? We're trying to [102:56] spread our seat to the four corners of [102:57] the earth. They put up a much finer [102:59] screen to pick the smartest, fastest, [103:00] and strongest seat. And that's the [103:01] reason why our kids are going to be [103:02] smarter and taller than us. That's the [103:04] way of the world. But when you reduce [103:06] that desire, it's going to get in the [103:08] way of not only you finding a mate, but [103:10] developing the skills to be successful [103:12] in all other parts of your life. So, [103:14] back to the basic premise, I wonder and [103:17] worry if porn is the most underresarched [103:20] addiction and the damage it's having on [103:23] young men because what I see amongst my [103:25] colleagues and I'd be curious if I [103:27] actually spoke to a really thoughtful [103:28] woman about this who's an addiction [103:31] professor at Stanford. I'm sure you know [103:33] her. I forget her name. [103:34] >> Analym. [103:35] >> Yeah. She runs our dual diagnosis. [103:37] >> Fantastic. [103:38] >> Amazing woman. Amazing human being. [103:39] immediately when we got off the podcast [103:41] said to me, "If your marijuana ever [103:43] becomes a problem, just call me." And [103:44] she was sincere. And I'm like, "That's [103:46] totally, [103:47] >> do you sense it?" Immediately, [103:49] >> she's the real deal. [103:49] >> I'm like, "Do you sense it's a problem?" [103:52] I'm like, "Hold me, Anna." Anyways, but [103:54] I don't think there's enough really good [103:56] research out there on porn because I [103:58] don't think people want to be known as [103:59] the porn professor. And so, I worry that [104:02] we really don't know the impact. And [104:05] what I see anecdotally is that I see a [104:08] lot of young men who don't have that [104:10] healthy fire because they think that [104:12] they can just they think oh it's like in [104:14] the in the last 20 years the guys who [104:17] didn't have their own game or didn't [104:18] want to be that successful they would go [104:20] to some low-income country and basically [104:22] become sex. This has become I think a [104:24] much broader version of that that rather [104:27] than level up you'd rather just sit home [104:29] and get a reasonable faximile of a [104:31] relationship or sex with porn. I wonder [104:34] if that is more damaging than than [104:37] people than uh people estimate right [104:39] now. [104:40] >> Yeah, it's a a really important topic [104:42] and it's one that people contact me [104:44] about all the time. Your analogy of [104:47] what's happening with porn to sex. We [104:49] should probably explain what expats are [104:50] people that leave the United States. I'm [104:52] not sure everyone's going to follow that [104:53] one. Sex expats are the it's a this [104:55] community of people that what I think [104:56] they go to Southeast Asia or something [104:58] and um [104:59] >> where they can or South America where [105:01] they can essentially buy whatever [105:02] experience they want [105:04] >> in general. I have to assume I've truly [105:06] never done this and nor do I have any [105:07] interest, but I have to assume that [105:09] these are men who just basically figure [105:12] well that's low effort once they have [105:14] the money and real dating, real real [105:18] sex, if I may, you know, um is it takes [105:21] some work. It takes some learning and [105:23] you know, especially if you want to be [105:25] told genuinely good job and and uh and [105:27] know that it's true. It's going to take [105:29] you're going to you have to get some [105:30] reps in there. [105:31] >> So, um put your ego on the line. um [105:34] learn to communicate, learn to listen, [105:36] all that stuff. [105:37] >> The idea that porn is is the much [105:39] broader and and more destructive um [105:42] analogous thing I think is is bullseye. [105:45] The moment you said like I think people [105:47] need to hear that. Do you want to be [105:48] that guy? I think I think with any [105:50] behavioral change, you know, the [105:52] neuroscientist in me says, okay, we have [105:53] circuits for kind of like things that [105:56] are aversive to us. Like you have to [105:57] engage the aversion and you have to [106:00] engage the the appetitive aspect, right? [106:03] Right. Like so that there's a win and [106:04] then there's something to avoid. I I [106:05] really think in order to get any real [106:06] behavioral change, you need to push away [106:08] from something and towards something [106:09] else. Okay. So I think that porn I mean [106:13] it's our most fundamental wiring. The [106:15] two the two circuits in the brain that [106:17] really crank out dopamine. [106:19] >> Mhm. [106:19] >> Okay. Circuits for reproduction sex. [106:22] >> Mhm. [106:23] >> And anger. There's this incredible study [106:25] by a very uh controversial guy named [106:27] Robert Heath in the 1960s. He was a a [106:30] neurosurgeon who would stimulate [106:31] different areas of the brain and um [106:33] unfortunately he was um into conversion [106:35] therapy. So, you know, he appropriately [106:37] got run out of science for trying to [106:39] make gay people straight by stimulating [106:40] certain areas of the brain. Yeah, he's [106:42] kind of a piece of [ __ ] person. But [106:44] again, let's look at what he did [106:45] separate from that. Immediately people [106:46] were like, I don't care about his data. [106:48] But he gave people with electrodes in [106:50] their brain in certain studies the [106:52] option to stimulate anywhere they [106:53] wanted. They could stimulate and get [106:55] sexual arousal. They could get laughter. [106:57] They could feel drunk. all the things [106:58] we're talking about really. They could [107:00] feel soothing of the sort that their [107:02] mother was holding them. The area that [107:05] they chose to stimulate the most is in [107:07] the central midline nucleus of the [107:08] phalamus, an area that my lab has spent [107:09] a lot of time on in other situations. [107:12] And they would just lever press and [107:13] lever press and lever press for the [107:15] feeling of mild frustration and anger [107:18] >> because the arousal associated with it [107:20] is its own reinforcement. as a student [107:23] of mine who's now hopefully soon to be a [107:25] faculty member. I won't name the [107:26] university, but she has an offer from a [107:27] phenomenal university. Her name is [107:28] Lindsay Cleet and she's worked on this [107:32] in a very very mechanistic way. When [107:34] we're angry, when we're frustrated, [107:38] the link to the dopamine circuitry is [107:40] just pounded out. We just all day long. [107:43] And what's amazing is it doesn't [107:44] attenuate. There's no threshold for [107:47] anger. The more angry you get, the more [107:49] frustrated you get, the more arousal you [107:51] feel from that. You never satiate. [107:53] There's no postcoidal bliss. There's no [107:56] my belly is so full, I feel like I'm [107:58] going going to explode. [108:00] >> And so this gets to the social media [108:02] thing, too. That's the circuit that I [108:03] worry about. And I think that's the [108:05] circuit that yes, I think tech, big tech [108:07] has tapped into whether they want to or [108:08] not. And I think that that's the one we [108:10] really have to be careful of. And um and [108:13] I've experienced it myself. I think I [108:14] actually in this moment I'm experiencing [108:16] a little bit of it like that kind of [108:17] arousal of like yes the the forward [108:19] center of mass that we feel but when [108:22] it's [ __ ] them like [ __ ] the Republicans [108:24] and you know or [ __ ] the left or the [108:26] extreme w I mean that's people are just [108:28] high all day long on their own anger and [108:31] frustration [108:32] >> and I think we just see it everywhere [108:33] and and I raise my hand I'm sure I'm [108:34] guilty of this at times too. Yeah, [108:36] that's illuminating because I correlate [108:39] my anger to a pathway to feeling [108:43] depressed. I struggle with anger and [108:44] depression and it usually starts as [108:47] something triggers me. I get really [108:48] angry and then I feel like my blood [108:51] turns to some sort of corrosive acid and [108:53] it just wears me down [108:55] >> and I'm just replet. I'm just depleted [108:57] for two or three days. So, I was I I [109:00] have a practice around trying to calm my [109:02] anger, but just hearing you say that [109:03] occasionally on one of my podcasts when [109:06] I see something that's inherently wrong [109:08] and I point it out or injust, I do feel [109:11] like a rush, like I'm being a leader or [109:13] a baller or pointing something out. [109:15] >> You are. It's I mean, I will say, you [109:17] know, testosterone, a conversation we've [109:19] had a little bit before offline, [109:21] >> at the level of the brain, it makes [109:23] effort feel good. Mhm. Anyway, I I don't [109:26] want to go off on a too much of a [109:27] tangent, but I'd like your thoughts [109:28] about how testosterone can be leveraged [109:32] for good versus bad. And maybe even I [109:35] don't know that we put everyone on [109:36] testosterone. I'm not suggesting that it [109:37] can nuke your fertility if you don't do [109:38] other things to offset it. So, uh, kids [109:40] be careful, but what are your thoughts [109:43] on testosterone and just sort of [109:45] proactive [109:47] male behavior, testosterone in adults, [109:50] older generations taking testosterone? [109:53] Well, I'm one of them. I'm on tea [109:55] therapy and I do it because I quite [109:56] frankly want to feel younger. It makes [109:58] me stronger in the gym, better [110:00] erections, even weird things like my [110:02] skin. The way I would describe tea [110:03] therapy is it just kind of took me back [110:05] three or five years to in the gym. So, [110:09] I'm an advocate for it. I'm You should [110:11] do it under the guidance of a doctor, [110:12] which I'm doing, but I'm a fan of it. [110:14] And I think you've done really [110:16] interesting work about hormone [110:17] replacement theory. I've listened to a [110:18] lot of your work on it. The argument [110:20] around testosterone and masculinity, I [110:22] think, is a really important one in the [110:24] political spectrum because to the far [110:26] right's credit, they recognize the [110:28] problem with young men before anybody [110:30] else. The problem is they conflate [110:33] masculinity with coarseness and cruelty. [110:34] And their solution was to take [110:36] non-whites and women back to the 50s. [110:38] >> Some of them, I I'm not trying to [110:39] protect them, but I would say uh you [110:42] know, I don't know his political [110:44] leanings, but my friend Jaca Willink has [110:46] daughters. He's not that guy you just [110:48] described. I'm talking about the far [110:49] right. I'm talking about whether it's [110:51] Donald Trump or the, you know, quote [110:53] unquote the traditional manosphere. It's [110:55] about the subordination of women and [110:57] it's about demonstrating a certain [110:58] harshness and coarseness and I would [111:00] argue cruelty and conflating that with [111:02] masculinity. Whereas the far left, and [111:04] this isn't helpful either, [111:06] their advice to young men is to act more [111:08] like a woman and that they conflate [111:11] masculinity with toxicity. And there has [111:13] to be something in the middle. There has [111:14] to be an aspirational form of [111:16] masculinity. And I would argue that we [111:18] need to celebrate that initiation [111:21] aggressiveness or you know Jimmy Carr [111:23] who's one of my idols now says all right [111:26] you can you can demonstrate cruelty or [111:29] you can demonstrate valor. You can be a [111:31] lover or you can be an addict. And [111:32] Richard Reeves has this great saying [111:34] he's like you want a man to be [111:36] invaluable in a shipwreck but acceptable [111:38] at a dance. So there is a certain needle [111:41] to be threaded here. But the Carnegie [111:44] award which is given out to people who [111:46] put their own physical safety in danger [111:48] to save someone else's physical safety. [111:50] It's literally the running into a [111:52] burning house award. You see a car on [111:55] fire, you put your own safety in harm's [111:58] way to try and protect someone else's [111:59] physical well-being. They gave out 83 [112:02] awards last year. 75 of them were men. [112:06] Men are more prone to take those types [112:08] of not only bad risks but good risks and [112:10] we need to celebrate that. Now you need [112:12] both. You need both on the by the way on [112:14] the combat field because men are more [112:15] likely to rush out and try and save [112:16] their comrade but women are more likely [112:18] to say let's not be stupid. Let's think [112:20] this through. You need both of those. [112:21] You I mean this is the great thing is [112:23] that both energy when they come together [112:25] make a better world but we seem to be [112:27] very um suspicious of that masculine [112:31] energy right now. And I think it needs [112:33] to be celebrated. There needs to be [112:35] someone who sees movement in the tribe [112:36] and immediately grabs the spear and goes [112:38] and tries and kill it for the benefit of [112:40] the community, who wants to put people [112:42] on Mars and makes these crazy, [112:45] ridiculous investments that make no [112:47] sense and is super aggressive around [112:49] these things. I think that's a wonderful [112:51] energy. And when I went to the [112:53] Democratic National Convention, I saw a [112:55] parade of special interest groups [112:57] talking about the very real issues they [112:59] all face. But I didn't see one mention [113:02] of the group that has fallen further [113:03] faster than any group in in recent [113:05] history, and that is young men. Well, I [113:07] think that's because based on the [113:08] feedback I've received, for instance, [113:10] when we had Terry Reel on the podcast [113:12] who talks about, you know, some balance [113:14] of masculine and feminine uh phenotypes [113:16] and therapy and partner partner [113:18] communication and these kinds of things. [113:20] The push back that I always get for or I [113:23] got there um not because of Terry [113:25] specifically was as long as we can't [113:27] talk about toxic femininity, these were [113:29] clearly men writing to me, then um this [113:33] whole discussion feels imbalanced. [113:35] That's how they feel. They feel like [113:37] there's the this idea that they're good [113:40] men and they're bad men and they're [113:41] really bad men. [113:43] >> Totally agree. I, you know, I'm I've got [113:46] the optics of a, you know, Mac monkey [113:48] blindfolded on LSD when it comes to [113:50] certain thing members of our species, [113:52] but when it comes to men, I grew up in a [113:54] big group of boys, etc. Big group of [113:56] men. I get it. That statement is true. [113:58] There are great ones, they're ones, and [114:01] then they're like really bad dudes. So [114:03] when you talk about manosphere, you [114:05] know, the I would say it the if I had my [114:09] way, manosphere would apply to just the [114:11] really bad ones because that name has [114:12] become synonymous with really bad men. [114:14] Okay, we can come back to that perhaps. [114:16] But [114:17] >> there is this issue that no one is [114:19] allowed to say there's wonderful [114:21] femininity. There's women with issues, [114:25] right? And then there's bad women. [114:26] You're not allowed to say it. The only [114:28] women that I can have that conversation [114:30] with are lesbians. They were the ones [114:32] who explained to me there are truly bad [114:34] women. And I said, well, how come no one [114:36] talks about that except lesbians? Cuz [114:38] they said, ah, because we are living in [114:41] a time now where men talking about women [114:44] or having things they wish for women to [114:46] do differently itself is seen as toxic. [114:49] that they've that women feel this is [114:51] what I was told so I'm regurgitating [114:53] that they've suffered so much at the [114:54] hands of men that we need like a good 20 [114:57] or 30 years before we're ready to get to [114:58] that conversation [115:00] >> which of course for young men growing up [115:02] just p like makes them feel like okay [115:04] it's all it's all on us [115:06] >> and that's good like agency advocacy for [115:08] one's own life is important stay out of [115:10] the really bad men category and ideally [115:12] the not so good men category too but [115:15] this the the polarization I think is set [115:17] by the fact that sure we can talk about [115:19] toxic mas masculinity. We can talk about [115:21] the male crisis, but why aren't we [115:23] talking about the suicide rate? Well, [115:25] because women's issues, we're I think at [115:27] a in a good way, we're still thinking [115:29] that we need to protect and provide for [115:31] the women and the children in our [115:33] society. We're holding that as in the [115:34] highest regard like those they get the [115:36] life rafts on the Titan when the Titanic [115:38] goes down. So, you know, it's it's it's [115:41] complicated and there's a lot of [115:43] offlimits terms and I'm glad that [115:45] they're coming up today just organically [115:47] because those offlimits terms I think [115:49] are the potential bridges between the [115:53] where we sit now where we look at men [115:55] and we go, "Oh [ __ ] they're a mess. [115:57] Some of them are just like downright [115:58] awful." We look over here and we go, [116:00] "Man, they're really dissatisfied." The [116:02] assumption is if a woman is dissatisfied [116:04] or somehow not doing well, that a man [116:07] failed. [116:08] That's a presumption that a lot of [116:09] people make. I don't make that [116:11] presumption and I can look back to times [116:13] in my youth where '9s narrative probably [116:15] fed that a bit. But now I think we we [116:18] need to really like pull back the veil [116:20] and go like who are like take a real [116:22] hard look at ourselves and try and you [116:24] know do this mesh that we're talking [116:26] about. [116:26] >> Yeah. The only way you get there is with [116:27] data. So from 1945 to 2000 America [116:31] registered a third of the world's [116:32] economic growth, a third of its [116:33] prosperity with only 5% of the [116:35] population. So we had 6x the growth of [116:38] the rest of the world, right? And within [116:40] that 6x, the majority of that prosperity [116:43] was sequestered to the one-third of the [116:45] population that were white, male, and [116:46] heterosexual. It was just a lot harder [116:49] to participate in that uplift if you [116:51] weren't in that group. So men of my [116:54] generation born with my sexual [116:56] orientation, skin color, and gender [116:58] arguably had 15 to 18x the wins in their [117:02] sales. The question is, should a young [117:04] man now pay the price for my privilege? [117:07] And I understand the gag reflex when I [117:09] start talking or advocating for men [117:11] because they look at me and they said, [117:11] "You had unfair advantage." 100% guilty [117:14] as charge. But now a young man who is [117:17] four times as likely to kill himself, [117:19] three times as likely to be addicted, 12 [117:20] times as likely to be incarcerated. and [117:22] men of my generation aren't stepping up [117:24] and providing the mentorship or voting [117:26] for the programs that might take a [117:28] little bit of money away from my [117:29] generation to support all young people [117:31] and bring them up. And most of the [117:33] programs and policies I advocate for [117:35] would would advocate for all young [117:37] people. The average 70-year-old is 72% [117:40] wealthier than the 7-year-old 40 years [117:42] ago. The 25-year-old is 24% less [117:44] wealthy. And then every day it's speed [117:46] balled with 110 notifications telling [117:48] them that they're failing. And what do [117:50] you know? They're the most obese, [117:52] depressed, and anxious generation we've [117:54] had in a long time. And there really [117:56] isn't an honest conversation, and I've [117:58] said this on stage, and it gets some [118:00] push back. I'll say I think women make [118:03] better managers. I think that they are [118:05] more emotionally in touch with other [118:07] people. They have higher EQ. I think [118:09] they'll probably make better doctors and [118:10] lawyers. I think their attention to [118:12] detail genetically or or [118:13] anthropologically, whatever you want to [118:15] call it, their bedside manner and [118:17] there's more women in both law school [118:18] and medical school now, especially [118:20] medical school. [118:22] If I say that women are better managers, [118:24] will make better doctors nodding. [118:27] Everyone, everyone, the women agree and [118:29] the guys will look around and go nod, [118:30] right? If I say men on average make [118:33] better entrepreneurs and that's not to [118:36] say that women shouldn't be offered the [118:37] same opportunities and they haven't [118:38] been, right? 95% of the capital has been [118:41] not only allocated to men, but the [118:43] majority of it has been allocated by men [118:44] who went to one or two schools, Harvard [118:46] and Stanford. There's I don't feel safe [118:48] around you. [118:49] >> Who doesn't feel safe around you? [118:51] >> It's fine to say women are make better [118:53] X, Y, and Zed. [118:54] >> To say men are better at anything [118:57] combat soldiers. [118:58] >> I mean, let's be honest. If you said it [118:59] on X, everyone would be like, cool entre [119:01] males make better entrepreneurs. If you [119:03] said it in a room, I mean I again I [119:06] don't want to make this political but we [119:08] can't we you know we can't avoid this. [119:10] You know if you said it among a more [119:12] right center to right leaning crowd I [119:15] think you'd probably get less push back [119:16] also from women. [119:17] >> I think that's fair. [119:18] >> I'm not saying it's who you're hanging [119:19] out with. You know that's [119:21] >> I barely hang out with anybody. So I've [119:23] got a very small world but [119:24] >> well but to your point if you go to the [119:26] Democratic national website dnc.org And [119:29] they changed this, but I talked about [119:31] this a lot on CNN, left-leaning website. [119:35] They they said they have a page say who [119:37] we serve. And they outlined 16 special [119:40] interest groups, veterans, the disabled, [119:42] black Americans, Native Americans, [119:43] seniors. And I added it up and it was [119:45] 74% of the population. And when you say [119:48] you're advocating for 74% of the [119:50] population, you're not advocating for [119:51] 74%. You're discriminating against 26%. [119:55] And basically the only people they [119:56] didn't mention were young men. So I [119:59] understand the notion that men have had [120:02] so much disproportionate advantage that [120:04] there needs to be a catch-up period. But [120:06] I would argue it's gone a little bit [120:08] overboard. Our school system K through [120:10] 12 I would argue is biased against boys. [120:13] A boy is twice as likely to be suspended [120:15] on a behavior adjusted basis as a girl. [120:17] A black boy five times as likely. 70 to [120:19] 80% of K through2 teachers are women. [120:23] Who do people naturally advocate for? [120:24] The people to remind them of themselves [120:26] at that age. 7 to 10 high school [120:28] valictorians are girls. It's now 6040 [120:30] female male in college. And so the [120:33] bottom line is we leveled the playing [120:34] field and there's a little bit of bias [120:36] and women have totally blown by men. [120:38] Fine. More power to them. But what do we [120:40] do now that young men just quite frankly [120:42] don't have obvious paths to prosperity [120:45] and young people aren't as economically [120:47] prosperous relative as they used to be? [120:49] and young men are disproportionately [120:51] evaluated in society, especially in the [120:54] mating market on their economic [120:55] viability. And I get a ton of push back [120:57] saying, "No, I'm just looking for an [120:58] emotionally in touch male." I think that [121:00] is such [ __ ] Oh, [121:01] >> it's total [ __ ] [121:02] >> There's still economic hypergamy. [121:04] Educational hypergamy has leveled out. [121:06] There's a lot of people who women who [121:08] will marry a guy who didn't go to [121:10] college or there e educational hypergamy [121:14] has vastly reduced. But in cities where [121:17] women makes make as much as men, so [121:19] there's an equality. If you find a [121:21] couple, twice as many couples, the male [121:24] earns more money than the woman. [121:25] Economic hypergamy is still an [121:27] absolutely full full force. So if we [121:31] don't figure out a way to level up all [121:33] young people economically such that what [121:36] is more passed for economic viability [121:37] for young men, I think it's just going [121:39] to tear out our society. We're going to [121:40] have a lower birth rates, fewer people [121:42] to support the very expensive programs [121:44] which make up 40% of our government [121:46] spending now on people over the age of [121:47] 65. And we're going to have real issues. [121:49] And people say, "Well, that's repackaged [121:51] violence that men are more violent." I'm [121:53] like, "No, it's just the reality. If you [121:55] look at every unstable, violent society [121:57] in history, it always has one thing at [121:59] the core of it, and that is a group of [122:01] young men with a lack of economic or [122:02] romatic opportunities. I don't care if [122:04] it's Weimar, Germany, or some of the [122:05] most unstable places in the Middle East [122:08] or Africa. when you have the most [122:10] dangerous person in the world is a young [122:11] man who is lonely and broke and we are [122:14] producing way too many of them. And by [122:16] the way, I don't think the remedy here [122:17] is affirmative action for men. I just [122:19] think that's too politicized. But we [122:21] have to stop transferring wealth from [122:23] people their age to people my age. Why [122:25] the hell are we transferring every year [122:28] $1.3 trillion from a generation that is [122:31] the most anxious, depressed, and obese [122:32] in American history to the wealthiest [122:35] generation in the history of the planet [122:36] called Social Security? That's a third [122:38] realm in politics. I'm not suggesting [122:40] anyone should die in poverty. Should you [122:41] and I get social security? [122:44] >> No. We don't need it. No, I don't need [122:45] it. I mean, they don't need it. [122:46] >> Probably a third uh a third of seniors [122:49] really don't need social security. But [122:50] you get near that, you can't get [122:52] elected, right? 40% of all government [122:55] spending is going to people over the age [122:57] of 65. It's going to be 50% within 10 [123:00] years. We spend more money on ICE than [123:02] we spend on children. I mean, it's just [123:05] there's my generation. I don't even [123:07] think of us. I'm I'm on the edge of Gen [123:09] X baby boomer. The best way to describe [123:11] my generation would be the vampire [123:13] generation. We were never drafted into [123:15] war. We never really had to serve. And [123:18] what has my economic complexion been in [123:20] America? Unprecedented prosperity, but [123:23] the lowest taxes in in modern history. [123:26] So, a lot of these solutions I just [123:27] think are common sense. We need to do [123:29] away social security tax, right? 6% up [123:33] to 160,000. So, a kid working for me [123:35] making 150 or 160k, good living, they [123:37] pay $9,000. I make a lot more than that. [123:40] I pay $9,000 because it tops out at 160 [123:43] grand. Why does that make any sense? Who [123:46] two biggest tax deductions, mortgage [123:47] interest rate and capital gains? Who [123:49] owns homes and stocks? People our age. [123:51] Who rents and makes their money from [123:53] current income? All the dudes in this [123:54] office, the young kids, right? We are [123:57] literally transferring trillions of [123:59] dollars from young people to old people. [124:01] And we wonder why young men feel anxious [124:03] when they are dispro 75% of women say [124:05] economic viability is key to a mate. [124:07] It's only 25% of men. Women still look [124:09] at men as economic providers. And so you [124:12] have this entire generation of young men [124:14] who feel like they have no purpose, no [124:15] on-ramps to the middle class and are [124:18] being evaluated on a set of criteria [124:20] that get harder and harder for them each [124:22] year. And then this like unbelievable [124:25] set of expectations that they're taught [124:27] they should have because it seems like [124:29] everyone else is making a million [124:30] dollars selling ETH or is in amazing [124:33] shape or has a ridiculously hot [124:35] boyfriend or girlfriend and has artist [124:37] passes to Coachella. So it'd be shocking [124:40] if they weren't depressed and obese. [124:45] >> Wow. Um the analogy that comes to mind [124:48] is uh academic science. you know uh [124:51] there's I used to joke you know the [124:53] advantage of having a dad who was a [124:55] scientist who was also a little bit [124:56] irreverent uh was that I grew up around [124:59] an understanding of how academics works [125:01] and and uh early on I thought as much as [125:04] I love my colleagues like a lot of them [125:06] need to retire they just need to go [125:08] >> 100% [125:09] >> and the reason they need to go is [125:10] because they were having three four two [125:13] to four NIH grants like million-dollar a [125:15] year grants and and that itself isn't a [125:17] problem except that there wasn't enough [125:18] money for young investigators And so [125:20] fields die and science dies. They don't [125:22] retire. And so it was very interesting [125:25] right before the Trump administration [125:27] came in, I started logging into these [125:28] NIH hearings and and I think our [125:30] previous NIH director and I will go on [125:32] record and saying and our current NIH [125:34] director Jay Bacharia both very good [125:36] directors in different ways trying to do [125:38] important different things and you'll [125:40] notice the budget was not cut under Jay [125:41] and IDC for the academics out there was [125:44] not cut but an interesting problem was [125:47] outed at the kind of end of Carolyn's [125:49] role at NIH the former director and it [125:51] was the following [125:53] Someone said, [125:55] "What is the deal? Why are people living [125:57] longer and young people are killing [125:59] themselves and we have all these mental [126:00] health issues, mostly among men, but [126:02] also a young among young women?" and she [126:04] said, "It is true that we've been very [126:07] successful in medicine at getting people [126:10] 65 and older to live much much longer to [126:12] treat latestage diabetes, to treat [126:15] cancer, to treat uh we don't have cures [126:18] for these things, but we've extended [126:20] life for the older generation and to a [126:23] large degree the quality of life, [126:24] especially if they're willing to get [126:26] sunlight, exercise, probably not drink [126:28] alcohol at that age or drink a lot less, [126:30] not smoke. people are living longer and [126:32] longer and longer and tons of research [126:34] money is being poured into this. There's [126:36] this enormous gap where many of the [126:39] problems that are most important to [126:40] young people to thrive in every way, not [126:42] just health, but mental health, etc., [126:44] they're just not even being studied. So, [126:46] there's this top waiting of age and of [126:49] seniority clearly in what you're [126:52] describing, but also in the science and [126:54] that that we're funding. And that [126:55] clearly clearly harms young people [126:58] because no one's studying porn addiction [127:00] in a serious way at scale. Nobody's [127:02] studying social media addiction in a [127:04] serious way at scale. I think what [127:06] Jonathan's done is fantastic and others [127:08] are now getting involved in this. But [127:09] you know it's a problem if you look at [127:11] the numbers as serious as cancer for [127:15] people who are you know in their 50s and [127:17] older and actually cancers and diabetes [127:19] and and u deaths of despair as our [127:22] previous uh you know surgeon general [127:24] pointed out uh are among the greatest [127:28] killers of young people. So we've [127:30] totally lost perspective in many ways. I [127:32] don't know what to do about social [127:33] security. That's your domain, not mine. [127:35] But I vote very strongly for what they [127:37] do in Japan. Force scientists to retire. [127:40] I'm going to earn some hate from my [127:41] colleagues, but anyway, force them to [127:44] retire at 65. They still collect a [127:46] salary and a and in many cases a a [127:48] pension if they're state funded schools. [127:51] They still have health care. Their kids [127:53] still probably went to college partially [127:54] for free. The inside ball of these [127:56] schools that you and I work at, right? [127:58] This whole network. They got in [128:00] >> and they got in. And so [128:04] let them retire, let them keep their [128:05] office. I don't I do believe there's a [128:07] lot of wisdom in the older generations. [128:09] But I was quite happy to [128:11] >> There was your land acknowledgement. Let [128:12] me let me go in. [128:13] >> Oh well. Well, I just want to say there [128:15] were senior faculty members like Lubbert [128:17] Strier, I'll just call these people out [128:18] who wrote the book biochemistry. Anyone [128:20] there? Lubbert retired, closed his lab. [128:22] He made a bunch of money at Aphimatrix, [128:23] the gene ship company. And he used to [128:25] come around to the lab and go, "Hey, [128:26] what are you guys working on?" He would [128:28] talk to the students and give them [128:29] amazing ideas. I think that generational [128:32] wisdom passed down is great. Guess what [128:33] he wasn't doing? Consuming grant [128:35] dollars, consuming square footage on [128:36] campus. He was shedding knowledge for [128:38] free because the system has taken [128:40] >> he's a Yoda, but he's an outer. [128:42] >> So you work at Stanford, one of the [128:44] finest faculties ever assembled. NYU has [128:47] an outst at the business school, we have [128:48] an outstanding faculty. I would argue [128:50] one of the best in the world. Not [128:52] because it's our fault, but because [128:53] every great faculty member loves the [128:55] idea of coming and spending 4, 8, 10 [128:56] years in New York and living in Soho. [128:58] Sounds pretty good. [128:59] >> That's our advantage. Hey, come here. [129:00] We'll give you free housing. You and [129:01] your wife, your kids are out of the [129:03] house. Come teach accounting here. We [129:06] get amazing faculty. A third should be [129:08] out put on a [ __ ] ice flow. They get [129:10] to a point where they darn adding as [129:12] much value. They were the bomb on gap [129:14] one accounting in 1988. They get tenure [129:16] and they won't leave. And they leave [129:18] feet first. And the result is young [129:20] people who could bring a certain [129:22] creativity, a new way of looking at [129:23] things. There's no room for them to come [129:25] up. And I want to go back to the notion [129:26] of vampire generation. We talk about [129:29] sunlight, being social, eating well, [129:31] sleeping well, all the keys, right? I [129:33] would argue the number one predictor of [129:35] longevity. It's one thing, money. [129:38] China's gone from an average life [129:39] expectancy of 47 to 77 in 60 years as [129:42] their wealth has gone up. You're in the [129:44] bottom decile, I believe, of income. You [129:46] live 12 years less long than someone in [129:48] the upper desile. Right? It's about [129:50] money. And all we have done is not only [129:53] suck money from young to old, we have [129:54] sucked life because we are so selfish [129:57] and so unwilling to pay it forward. Old [130:00] people elect even older people to vote [130:02] themselves more money. And what they are [130:04] doing maybe unwittingly, but they are [130:05] doing it is they are robbing life and [130:08] happiness from young people and [130:10] transferring it to old people. There not [130:12] only needs to be term limits. Washington [130:15] DC, the people allocating capital has be [130:17] become a cross between the Golden Girls [130:19] and the land of the walking dead. enough [130:21] already. We have totally robbed and not [130:24] only money, we have robbed life and [130:26] health from young people because money [130:28] in our society is health. How do we [130:32] create financial incentives inside of [130:34] uniqueness? I think that's what makes [130:36] the United States great because I saw [130:39] social media that way. But I will say [130:40] that's cuz it worked out that way for [130:42] me. I love learning. I love teaching. I [130:44] flipped on a camera and I started the [130:45] podcast with that guy sitting over there [130:47] and it worked out great. The way I would [130:49] describe the transition that's been bad [130:50] for America is that the way I would [130:53] describe it is that back when I was [130:55] growing up, America had a commitment to [130:57] and even loved the unremarkable. I was [131:00] remarkably unremarkable. And I'm not [131:02] that's not a humble brag. I got 1130 on [131:04] the SAT, had a 3.1 GPA. We didn't have [131:07] any money, but this is what I got. I got [131:10] assisted lunch, right? And the great [131:13] state of California used to send coupons [131:15] to my house that were the same colors [131:17] the kids would buy in school so I [131:19] wouldn't be embarrassed. Right. I got [131:21] Pell grants. I got accepted to UCLA on [131:24] appeal. 74% admissions rate. I got I was [131:27] one of the 26% that didn't get in and I [131:29] was installed in Sheling. Came home [131:31] really upset one day and said, "Is this [131:33] my life?" I was always told I was funny. [131:35] I wanted to be a doctor. And my mom [131:37] said, "Well, is there an appeal [131:38] process?" And I remember the day the [131:41] admissions director called me and said, [131:43] "You're not qualified, but you're a son [131:45] of California. We're going to give you a [131:46] shot." [131:47] >> A son of California. [131:48] >> Son of California. What a great [131:49] statement. I get I get emotional just [131:51] thinking about it. [131:52] >> And then I got, as I said, I got into [131:54] Berkeley. And this is a this is a brag [131:56] and a flex, but I'm going to make it. [131:57] I've given 20 million bucks back to the [131:59] University of California in the last [132:00] five years. [132:01] >> Awesome. [132:02] >> So, it's worked out for all of us. [132:03] America isn't about identifying a super [132:06] class of rich kids and the freakishly [132:08] remarkable. It's about betting on [132:10] unremarkable kids. So this is what we [132:12] need to do. We need if you're a [132:14] university and you have more than a [132:15] billion dollar endowment and you're not [132:17] growing your freshman class faster than [132:18] population, you're a hedge fund with [132:20] classes and you should lose your taxfree [132:22] status. If a 20% of your degrees aren't [132:24] for non-traditional non-traditional [132:26] things such as nursing or specialy [132:27] construction or vocational programming, [132:29] you don't get access to tax-free money. [132:33] in my opinion, mandatory national [132:34] service. I think there's a ton of things [132:36] we need to do. I think we should tax the [132:37] [ __ ] out of private schools and reinvest [132:39] that in public schools. We need to [132:41] disassociate house property taxes from [132:44] the quality of the schools. Think about [132:45] the disadvantage kids. The average [132:47] public school spends $15,000 a year on a [132:50] kid. The kid uh schools in poor area is [132:53] 9,000. The average private school spends [132:55] $72,000 a year per student. So if you're [132:58] fortunate enough to go to a private [132:59] school like my kids, we're spending 850 [133:02] grand on them and some kids were [133:03] spending 120 grand and you want that kid [133:06] to compete against another kid to get [133:08] into an elite university. And we all [133:10] tell ourselves this myth now that oh [133:12] with AI the college doesn't matter. It's [133:14] never been more important. And if you [133:16] had a drug that can make it twice as [133:18] likely that you get married, half as [133:20] likely that you kill yourself, three [133:22] times as likely that you become a [133:23] millionaire, 10 times as likely that you [133:25] run for office, four times as likely [133:27] that you become an officer in the [133:29] military, three times less likely that [133:31] you become obese, would you hoard that [133:34] drug? And then when someone gets into [133:36] the the working environment or the or [133:38] the economy, would you create a tax [133:41] policy that just transfers money from [133:42] you to the wealthiest generation in the [133:44] world? There's just so many basic common [133:47] sense solution around higher ed and K [133:49] through 12 that we come up with all [133:51] these reasons. We use terms like network [133:53] effects or globalization or tech and [133:56] it's nothing but thinly veiled [ __ ] [133:58] to transfer more money. The bottom 99% [134:01] and young people are just nutrition for [134:03] older people and it's just to me it's [134:06] fairly obvious. They're just common [134:07] sense solutions. And higher ed has [134:09] become unfortunately [134:12] an emblematic of the rejection LVMHing [134:15] of America where you either at the age [134:17] of 18 have to be freakishly remarkable. [134:19] Are you captain of your lacrosse team [134:21] and building wells in Africa? Then fine, [134:23] come in and we'll put you on a glide [134:24] path to potentially being a billionaire [134:26] or president. But say you're [134:28] unremarkable. Sorry, you're [ __ ] out of [134:30] luck. Maybe maybe you can build a data [134:31] center somewhere and maybe get into the [134:33] middle class. And by the way, we don't [134:34] even have an apprentice culture in this [134:36] environment. So many parents feel so [134:39] shamed when their kid doesn't get into [134:40] elite university. 11% of LinkedIn [134:43] profiles in Germany and the UK say [134:44] apprentice. It's 3% here because parents [134:47] feel shamed if their kid doesn't get [134:49] into an elite university. We need to [134:51] dramatically expand vocational [134:53] programming, freshman classes, and stop [134:56] this insane transfer of wealth and [134:58] health from young people to old people. [135:01] and higher ed. Unfortunately, our [135:02] industry is at the tip of the spear of [135:05] fermenting this rejectionist [ __ ] [135:07] culture where we've identified we're the [135:09] arbiters of success. You know who gets [135:10] into Stanford and NYU? Two cohorts. The [135:14] children of rich people. You're 77 times [135:16] more likely to get into elite university [135:17] if you're a top 1% household or the [135:20] freakishly remarkable. And here's the [135:21] thing, I can prove to us all [135:23] mathematically that 99% of our children [135:26] are not in the top 1%. America loved the [135:29] unremarkable when I was a kid. It know [135:31] it's fallen out of love with the [135:32] unremarkable. Is America about [135:34] identifying a superclass to become [135:36] billionaires? Or is about planting as [135:38] many seeds as possible? Because no one [135:40] can be the arbiter of greatness at 18. [135:41] No one was going to see me at 18 and go [135:43] someday you might have an impact and [135:44] you'll be wealthy. No one would have [135:46] known that. And we've decided no, we're [135:49] about the children of rich people and [135:51] we're about the freakishly remarkable. [135:52] on everybody else in my opinion. [135:55] Hopefully hopefully gets to the middle [135:56] class. But if you don't, there's big [135:59] tech waiting there to addict you. [136:00] There's a tax policy that might [136:02] impoverish you. I think that young [136:04] people people say about young people [136:06] they're entitled. I think they're [136:07] entitled to be enraged. I can't imagine [136:10] the rage they must feel right now that [136:12] that they look up they look sideways and [136:15] they see all this prosperity and they [136:17] look at my generation and see the [136:18] benefits we've accured and we want to [136:21] spend $2 billion $2 trillion a year on [136:23] their credit card. We spend $7 trillion [136:25] a year. We take in 5 trillion and that [136:28] two trillion is all going that [136:30] incremental two trillion is all going to [136:31] seniors. I'm in the club doing rails of [136:34] ketamine and champagne and the closest a [136:36] young person gets is they get to throw [136:38] their credit card in and I'll keep [136:39] swiping it. I mean it is literally [136:41] morally corrupt what we are doing in [136:43] terms of deficit spending and how we are [136:44] prioritizing our budget. our budget [136:46] reflects our values and our values are [136:49] all [ __ ] up and have said let's party [136:52] right the baby boomers let's party like [136:54] there's no tomorrow and the and the [136:56] young people well they're going to have [136:57] to clean up the house and the garage is [136:58] on fire and the dogs are going to be [137:00] pregnant but that's their problem [137:01] because I'll be dead by then this [137:03] generation my generation for some reason [137:05] does not feel the same obligation to pay [137:08] it forward or back and create [137:09] infrastructure and investments for young [137:11] people and it's it to me it feels fairly [137:14] obvious [137:16] And the solutions are fairly common [137:17] sense, but we'll have thoughtful [137:19] conversations and social security will [137:21] be a third rail. And we'll have [137:23] thoughtful reasons for why when I sell [137:25] my business, the first 10 million should [137:27] be taxree. The last business I sold, [137:28] first 10 million bucks is taxree. What [137:30] the actual [ __ ] They say, "Well, Scott, [137:33] entrepreneurs are more productive. We we [137:36] we want to unleash our productivity, our [137:38] most product." I had no idea what tax [137:40] people don't start businesses because of [137:41] tax policy. Did you know what the t Did [137:43] you know about 1202? [137:45] >> If you sell this business, the first 10 [137:46] million bucks is taxree if it's a it's a [137:48] core. That's not why people start [137:50] businesses. No. But every day there are [137:52] new tax policies that do one thing. [137:54] Transfer money from those dudes to us. [137:57] More me than you because you're 10 years [137:58] younger than me. It needs to stop. [138:00] There's basic tax policy. Basic health [138:03] and human services policy, right? Why on [138:06] earth? You're a doctor. For God's sakes, [138:09] we spend $13,000 per individual for more [138:12] obesity, more anxiety, more depression [138:13] than every other G6 nation. We should [138:15] absolutely have nationalized socialized [138:17] healthcare. The bottom 99% again are [138:20] just a [ __ ] body bag of nutrition for [138:22] the top 1%. Monetizing health care. I'll [138:26] put that to you. I absolutely think we [138:28] need singlepayer socialized medicine [138:30] right now. I think it is indefensible to [138:32] healthcare in this country. 40% for I [138:34] apologize, I'm going off script here. [138:35] 30% of households medical or dental [138:38] debt. You don't have kids. Do you [138:39] realize how what kind of shame you would [138:41] feel as a father if your 16-year-old [138:42] girl gets a screaming toothache and you [138:44] have to go into debt to get her a root [138:46] canal and that hangs over you for the [138:48] next two or three years? [138:50] >> I'm all for robbing it from social [138:52] security because I like that idea. The [138:53] moment you say, you know, nationalized [138:55] healthcare, I think, oh boy, here we go [138:56] again. But I like the idea of of robbing [138:58] it from social security. I'm I'm not [139:00] talking about taking old people and [139:01] turning them out to pastor and letting [139:03] them wander the streets, you know, [139:04] mumbling to themselves. I do think that [139:06] taking care of the older generation is [139:07] important, but I do think we are a very [139:10] topheavy culture. And maybe because I [139:12] want to I consider you Gen X as opposed [139:15] to boomer. [139:15] >> I appreciate that. [139:16] >> I really do. And actually, it raised a [139:18] question for me. Feel free to um say [139:20] pass. You don't want to answer, but [139:21] earlier you said you you're somewhat um [139:23] I don't know, bashful or or you have [139:25] this issue around your age. Like I my [139:27] friend Kelly Starret who's a you know [139:29] PhD in physiology amazing trainer and [139:31] stuff. He said the best thing about [139:32] turning 50 when I was turning 50 he's [139:33] like you're going to be among the best [139:35] in shape for your decade. And I think I [139:38] mean look you you look great for a [139:40] 40-year-old like you're you're killing [139:41] it. You know you're fit all this stuff. [139:43] So but I wonder is this kind of shame [139:46] around it because your peer group kind [139:48] of sucks in the way that you're [139:49] describing or is this actually about [139:51] age? Because to me, one of the mo one of [139:54] the best things is to feel like your [139:57] friends, your people, the people you [139:59] associate with are awesome. And your [140:02] generation, I loved I think Gen X is an [140:05] incredible generation. As this [140:06] conversation continues, I'm thinking [140:08] more and more about the responsibility [140:10] and both the failures and the [140:12] opportunities to to remedy things for [140:14] the next generation. That's how we [140:15] started this conversation. So, two [140:17] questions there. First of all, is that [140:18] what that's about? like your peers kind [140:20] of suck and you don't want to be a part [140:21] of it because I consider you Gen X and [140:23] I'm not just trying to what do the kids [140:24] say glaze you here you're winning on [140:26] every dimension and you got two health [140:28] what sounds like healthy productive boys [140:30] like like you got it all man like [140:32] >> I think a lot of it comes down to very [140:34] just base things and that is a fear of [140:36] death I mean I'm not af I'm a I'm I'm [140:39] afraid of getting old and being [140:40] unhealthy I don't mind the death part [140:43] also just a fear of just wanting to feel [140:46] young and vigorous and masculine and [140:48] feel like that's slipping away from me. [140:50] Biology is undefeated. So, I think I'm a [140:53] little bit youth obsessed and a little [140:54] bit aegist. So, I think I have just a [140:56] fear of aging. Um, but just just the [141:01] call out about paying it forward and the [141:03] call out to your to your I know a lot of [141:05] young men and a lot of successful men [141:07] listen to this podcast. Like, I think my [141:10] generation on a lot of levels, we're [141:11] talking about tax policy, but men aren't [141:14] stepping up with respect to young men. [141:16] If you look at the single point of [141:18] failure, if you were to reverse engineer [141:20] when a boy comes off the tracks, it's [141:23] when he loses a male role model through [141:24] either death, divorce, or abandonment. [141:27] When a boy loses a male role model, and [141:31] 90% of the time, single parenthood is [141:33] headed by a woman, as mine was, at that [141:36] moment, he becomes more likely to be [141:38] incarcerated than graduate from college. [141:41] And men aren't stepping up. There are [141:43] three times as many women applying to be [141:44] big sisters in New York as are men [141:46] applying to be big brothers. And some of [141:48] it is a taboo that men are concerned or [141:52] self-conscious about expressing an [141:53] interest to get involved in a boy's life [141:54] because of sexual abuse from the [141:56] Catholic Church and Michael Jackson and [141:58] the rest. But there are a ton of men out [142:00] there in their 30s. I think you have a [142:02] bunch of Morgan with you that may or may [142:04] not have kids of their own. You don't [142:06] have to be Se Goldman Sachs. You don't [142:07] have to degree have a degree in [142:08] adolescent psychiatry. You just have to [142:10] be a good man trying to live a virtuous [142:12] life. And as someone who mentors young [142:14] men, I can tell you it is so easy to add [142:16] value. Just showing an interest, [142:20] answering basic questions. [142:23] This is a question I literally got now [142:26] six weeks ago from a young man I'm [142:27] mentoring. I'm on this new diet. I'm [142:30] just drinking it pineapple juice and [142:32] creatine. Okay. [142:35] I don't have a medical degree and I can [142:37] tell you that's wrong. Mhm. [142:38] >> Another question I got eight weeks ago. [142:40] I saw this amazing thing. I'm moving to [142:42] Alaska, Scott. What do you You're moving [142:44] to I saw this amazing thing on National [142:45] Grave. I've decided I want to move to [142:46] Alaska. You have a good job and your mom [142:48] is sick, right? Yeah. Why are you moving [142:50] to Alaska? You're going to quit your job [142:51] and move to If you just ask basic [142:53] questions, you add value to these young [142:55] men's lives. [142:57] >> Just real basic stuff. I'm feeling [142:59] depressed. Did you get outside? Are you [143:01] working out? There needs to be a [143:03] societal zeitgeist that a moment a young [143:05] man [143:07] doesn't have men in his life that the [143:09] the tribe moves in and injects young men [143:11] into their life. And I would the call [143:13] out to men is you know there's this [143:16] there's this great quote in one of the [143:18] Paul Wes Anderson movies Magnolia where [143:21] the guy says I have love to give. I just [143:22] don't know where to give it. I just [143:23] don't know where to put it. It's such a [143:25] wonderful statement. I think there's so [143:26] many men out there that have real uh [143:30] like I think some of the most rewarding [143:32] types of love is to give fraternal and [143:34] paternal love. My purpose, my thing in [143:37] life is to try and prepare my men for [143:40] others. Prepare my boys for others. [143:42] That's my job. It gives me purpose. I [143:44] think there's so many men out there that [143:46] could offer so much fraternal and [143:48] fraternal love to a young man or a boy [143:51] and they don't do it either because [143:52] they're too lazy or they're not stepping [143:54] up or they they're worried that people [143:55] will suspect them of something and [143:58] there's so much need and this is what [143:59] you do. You find a single mother in your [144:01] workplace and say going to a game, does [144:03] your son want to join me or join me and [144:05] my boys? Does your son want to hang out? [144:07] washing your car, going to a game, [144:10] whatever it is, that is the e, in my [144:12] opinion, that is the easiest solve that [144:15] doesn't involve the government right [144:16] now. But the bottom line is men of our [144:19] age aren't stepping up. And I couch it [144:21] in masculinity. You take care of [144:22] yourself. That's the first circle. You [144:24] fix your own oxygen mask. You can't get [144:26] can't take care of other people unless [144:28] you're economically and emotionally [144:29] somewhat viable. You take care of your [144:31] family. Take care extended family. Take [144:33] care of your community. But the ultimate [144:35] expression of masculinity is to get [144:36] involved in the life of a child that [144:38] isn't yours. And not enough men are [144:40] doing it. Even really successful men. [144:42] They're not stepping up. They're not [144:44] helping young men. And the easiest thing [144:46] to do, the most and it's so rewarding. I [144:50] can't tell you. It makes me feel, and I [144:51] don't do enough of it, but I do mentor [144:53] young men. It's just so easy to add [144:55] value. They make such stupid [ __ ] [144:57] decisions. My job with my sons is to be [144:59] their prefrontal cortex. No, you have to [145:01] wear shoes to school. I I I know this is [145:04] right. Wear shoes to school. So anyways, [145:06] the call out. If we want better men, we [145:10] have to be better men. I don't think you [145:12] can really hit the pinnacle of what it [145:14] means to be successful in masculinity [145:16] unless you're involved in the life of a [145:18] child that isn't yours. We have the most [145:19] single parent homes of any nation in the [145:22] world. We used to be number two to [145:23] Sweden. We'd pass them two years ago. [145:25] But that's what I would call I [145:27] constantly talk about government fixes [145:29] because I'm a lefty. there. The easiest [145:31] societal fix is quite frankly is just [145:33] male mentorship. [145:34] >> Yes. Yes. And yes, totally agree. I I [145:37] was very proactive in going out and [145:38] seeking them. One feature of that that I [145:41] just wonder if we can kind of um [145:42] superimpose [145:44] or you know uh or superimpose some [145:48] solutions on top of would be a better [145:50] way to put it is for instance the I had [145:52] no interest in playing football but kept [145:54] getting hurt skateboarding. So I learned [145:56] how to weightlift and make my body [145:57] stronger from the football coach who was [145:58] this amazing guy who wrote the original [146:01] script for Mr. Mom that that he wrote a [146:03] play Wait Till Your Mother Gets Home [146:04] that became Mr. Mom. He's like big buff [146:06] guy. His wife Michael Kear. [146:09] >> That's right. But so people were say he [146:10] didn't write that but [146:11] >> this guy Bob Peters was like a physical [146:14] specimen. He also played the piano and [146:16] he raised these kids and his wife dared [146:17] him. She said in the se early 70s she [146:19] said you couldn't do what I do. And so [146:21] that was how the whole thing came to he [146:22] realized you're right it's really really [146:24] tough. So um I went to him for for [146:27] working out advice but not for other [146:30] sources of advice. I went to uh [146:33] different men for different sources of [146:35] mentorship. It'll become clear what I'm [146:37] saying here in a moment. My academic [146:38] adviser, my PhD adviser was an [146:40] incredible woman. So I was mentored by [146:42] women too. But that's characteristic of [146:44] academ. [146:44] >> Was your father very involved in your [146:45] life? [146:46] >> He he was. is I mean we had my parents [146:48] split up at a at a you know at at in [146:51] adolescence and so we had our you know [146:53] our challenges over the years over time [146:55] you know my dad been a scientist first [146:57] generation immigrant he [146:58] >> How old were you when your parents split [146:59] up? [146:59] >> 14. [147:00] >> And did other men kind of move in or was [147:02] your father still very involved? [147:03] >> I sought out other mentors at that [147:05] point. I resented science. I resented [147:07] what he was a part of. We eventually [147:08] made amends. He's actually been a guest [147:10] on the podcast. He's a he's a physicist. [147:11] really helped me understand his [147:13] trajectory and you know and we've worked [147:15] out our our stuff but at that time it [147:17] was you know it was skateboarding it was [147:19] lifting weights it was I want to become [147:20] a firefighter actually took fire science [147:22] courses and and did that and then [147:24] eventually tripped and fell into science [147:25] and mentored uh menteed myself to a [147:30] wonderful professor at Santa Barbara and [147:32] and then the story unfolds [147:34] >> yeah and you're gonna you're going to [147:35] gag on this but you're exceptional most [147:37] 14-year-olds aren't exceptional and go [147:38] out and find mentors mentors have to [147:41] find them cuz they don't even know most [147:42] 14-year-olds don't even know they need [147:44] mentors. They don't even know the [147:45] concept. And my mom was smart enough to [147:47] get men involved in my life really [147:49] quickly. And it was hu it was everything [147:51] for me. Everything. I got a my mom's [147:54] boyfriend gave me 200 bucks and said I [147:56] started asking about stocks and he said [147:59] if you haven't spent this or bought [148:00] stocks by the time I'm here next [148:02] weekend, I'm um taking it back. So I [148:05] went to Westwood and Wilshire Boulevard [148:08] and walked into Dean Witter and this guy [148:11] with a big jurow came walking out Syro [148:14] and said, "Hi, I'm I'm Sai Sero." And [148:16] every day I would call I didn't have a [148:18] lot of friends at 13 him from the [148:20] Emerson junior high pay phone 20 cents [148:23] and he'd give me a lessons on the [148:24] market. I bought 12 shares of Columbia [148:26] Pictures and be like Close Encounters [148:29] the third kind is a hit. That's why the [148:30] saga's up. Casey's shadow is a bomb. [148:32] When there's more buyers for the stock [148:34] and fewer sellers, the stock goes up. [148:36] And he taught me about markets. I've [148:37] been investing in stocks since I was 13. [148:39] I've made a lot of money selling my [148:41] companies. I've made a [ __ ] ton of money [148:42] investing in stocks. And just this guy, [148:45] and by the way, he came to one of my [148:46] live podcasts about two years ago. He's [148:48] now 82. Just this guy's interest in me [148:51] like just meant the world. And also, and [148:54] this is a weird story, but he recently [148:56] just passed away. You know how in media [148:58] there's that second family people talk [149:01] about? The dude who has a family and you [149:03] find out he has a second family. My mom [149:05] and I were the second family. My mom's [149:07] boyfriend and my kind of male role model [149:10] had a family [149:11] >> unbeknownst to her. [149:13] >> No, to her, [149:14] >> but we didn't have any money. And I'm [149:16] not going to judge my mom, but and I'm [149:18] not going to judge him. And he was [149:20] actually a really good man to me. He was [149:21] really a good mentor, but he was only [149:23] around every other weekend. But I had [149:25] some great my athletic coaches took a [149:28] really nice active role in my life. [149:30] >> And when I think about what it would [149:32] have been like because the reality is [149:33] you have this healthy instinct as a boy [149:35] to start rejecting your parents at a [149:36] certain age. And not only that, I see it [149:39] with my boys. Their mom's voice [149:41] literally becomes white noise to them. [149:43] They like stop hearing it and they they [149:46] take her seriously or literally but not [149:48] seriously. And and but even even just [149:52] saying that boys needed men 5 years ago, [149:54] this dialogue has come so far was [149:56] triggering to some people. What women [149:58] can't raise good men? No. My mom raised [150:00] me, light of my life. But if I had not [150:03] had a bunch of men who just naturally [150:04] stepped in, there was a guy across the [150:06] hall who noticed that it was just me and [150:08] my mom. He would come over with his [150:10] girlfriend to me every other week and [150:12] say, "Do you want to come horseback [150:13] riding with us?" Right? Because he knew [150:15] I was being raised by my mom. It was a [150:17] natural instinct for him to come over [150:20] and take me out. And I worry that we've [150:22] lost that that we don't have enough male [150:24] mentors. [150:25] >> Wow. We're going to have to do 10 [150:26] podcasts. You know, I've got so many [150:28] more questions. I didn't get to a lot of [150:29] things that Scott, I I have to say it's [150:31] been amazing to get to just sit with you [150:34] and and learn from you. I'm delighted [150:36] that we had this conversation. I hope [150:38] the fact that we had it um I don't know [150:39] how polarized people people view us as, [150:41] but uh but that alone was important to [150:44] me. But I'm going to think a lot about [150:45] many of the things you said. You've [150:47] talked about having a code, this, you [150:48] know, this notion of of really being a [150:51] provider and a protector, having [150:53] building a financial, you know, [150:54] foundation for oneself. Uh, you know, [150:57] putting service over uh attention to [151:00] self and and just so many things of [151:02] value. This is one that, um, I know many [151:03] people are going to come back to over [151:05] and over again. And I'm just grateful [151:07] for you doing what you do. you defy all [151:09] the stereotypes of the of the groups [151:11] that people assign you to, which those [151:14] are my favorite kind of people. So, and [151:16] again, you're you're killing it on the [151:18] health front. Whatever you're doing, [151:19] man, it's probably your boys. They're [151:20] probably like, "This is what it's like [151:21] to have vigor and you like to [151:23] >> Well, tonight I'll go through everything [151:25] what I do and I want you to edit it, but [151:27] uh just in the mutual fan club here, one [151:29] of the things I don't like about [151:30] podcasting is it's emblematic of [151:32] American politics and that is the more [151:34] outrageous you are, [151:35] >> the more ratings you get. So the [151:37] podcasting algorithms [151:39] encourage people to say outrageous [151:41] things and sometimes they're not very [151:43] informed. And I'm guilty of this [151:44] sometimes. I've fallen into this Dunning [151:46] Krueger where I think I know something [151:47] about something because I know a decent [151:48] amount about marketing or business. And [151:51] I think in our leaders, we need to make [151:54] intelligence [151:55] and honesty and science cool again. And [151:57] you're doing that. And I worry sometimes [151:59] a lot of our most senior- elected [152:02] officials on the health side are not [152:04] making intelligence or science cool [152:06] again. [152:06] >> I have friends there and I'll just tell [152:07] like they're not biologists. They need [152:08] to talk to [152:09] >> that's my point. You have real domain [152:11] expertise. I think you are making [152:12] science and intelligence cool again. And [152:14] I think the nation is in desperate need [152:16] of that. That certification domain [152:18] expertise being measured about your [152:19] comments citing data putting out [152:22] disclosures telling me no Scott you [152:24] don't understand DOPA. This is what [152:25] actually is going on. I think that's [152:27] important. And so I I think you're a [152:29] really positive influence for young [152:30] people who are getting seduced by the [152:32] algorithms. And there's got to be people [152:34] like you out there that young men aspire [152:36] to be more like that say no training [152:38] domain expertise being measured and [152:40] science matter like that. You're making [152:42] that cool again. [152:43] >> Well, thank you. Well, it's a labor of [152:45] love and a bit of a compulsion. So, I [152:47] plan to continue, but I'm excited for [152:49] whatever comes next and especially in [152:51] these very tense uh political years. [152:54] You're a brave one. [152:55] >> Go on. You got balls and brains, man. [152:57] That's That's how I'll wrap this one. [152:59] You got balls and brains. I've been the [153:00] whole time. Like, and um you're willing [153:02] to take risks and um and make mistakes [153:05] and clearly you're making more better [153:08] decisions than less good ones on average [153:10] compared to your peer group and then [153:12] some. So, come back again. Appreciate. [153:14] >> Thanks again, Andrew. [153:15] >> Thank you for joining me for today's [153:16] discussion with Scott Galloway. To find [153:18] links to his new book and to find links [153:20] to his various podcasts and other [153:21] resources, please see the show note [153:23] captions. If you're learning from and or [153:25] enjoying this podcast, please subscribe [153:27] to our YouTube channel. That's a [153:28] terrific zerocost way to support us. In [153:31] addition, please follow the podcast by [153:33] clicking the follow button on both [153:34] Spotify and Apple. And on both Spotify [153:36] and Apple, you can leave us up to a [153:38] fivestar review. And you can now leave [153:40] us comments at both Spotify and Apple. [153:42] Please also check out the sponsors [153:44] mentioned at the beginning and [153:45] throughout today's episode. That's the [153:47] best way to support this podcast. 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