Psychiatrist Paul Conti Launches Framework to Reverse Behavioral Loops

精神科医生Paul Conti推出逆转行为循环的新框架 培养富有同理心的好奇心与结构化自我反思，打破童年继承的模式，从而重获个人自主权并改善心理健康。 在本次讨论中，Paul Conti博士介绍了一种变革性的心理健康方法，强调发现个人优势，而非仅仅罗列失败与创伤。对话概述了自我反思的运作机制，区分了内部与外部处理方式，并提供了诸如监控内心对话、利用照片墙以及进行结构化自我探究等具体策略。通过培养“富有同理心的好奇心”，个体能够打破童年继承的模式，重获自主权，摆脱令人瘫痪的内部循环，转向有目标的现实行动。对话最终将幸福重新定义为平静、知足与感受愉悦能力的坚实结合，引导听众如何过上经过审视且有方向的生活。 Paul Conti博士概述了一种新的心理健康方法，强调个人自主权、自信，以及自我反思与外部行动之间的动态平衡。 (0:00) 传统心理健康体系过度关注病理和标签，而真正的转变始于认识到一个人身上已经在良好运作的部分。 (2:50) 以“富有同理心的好奇心”而非评判的态度对待自身的想法和行为，是开展真正自我探索的基础机制。 (2:50) “观察性自我”是一种关键且具凝聚力的内部力量，使个体能够在多变、依赖状态的环境中保持稳定一致的核心认同。 (6:08) 社交媒体和持续的数字化信息传播因优先考虑外部认可，并削弱真正、未受干扰的独处所带来的认知益处，从而制造出一种“虚假的自我”。 (15:24)

Psychiatrist Dr. Paul Conti argues that authentic mental health and personal agency rely on balancing introspective self-examination with constructive action, beginning from an inventory of strengths rather than perceived deficits. Compassionate Curiosity and Malleability of Self (2:50) Conti emphasizes that human self-conception is highly malleable, yet individuals often remain stuck because self-reflection provokes fear or lacks methodology. Approaching oneself with compassionate curiosity allows people to evaluate their automatic self-talk and recurring life narratives in quiet moments. Rather than merely obsessing over friction points, Conti advocates starting from strengths and assessing what is already going right to uncover hidden opportunities for change. Balancing Introspection and Doing (20:59) Conti and Andrew Huberman address the tension between pure reflection and external action, noting that neither extreme is optimal. Non-reflective individuals may run on a generative drive to productively contribute to the world, but unexamined busyness can also serve as a defense mechanism against uncomfortable self-awareness. Conversely, excessive internal processing risks hyper-self-referential loops where subjective viewpoints are mistaken for absolute facts. Externalizing thoughts through speech or writing forces clarity and brings error-checking mechanisms online, while healthy internal reflection cultivates a vetted self ready to engage constructively with others. Identifying Reflexive Habits and Childhood Blueprints (53:17) When individuals find themselves repeating self-defeating behaviors, Conti notes they reveal where to investigate their underlying motivations. Clinicians probe whether daily routines, unfulfilling relationships, and habits are intentional choices or passive reflexes. Recognizing that a resistant behavior stems from childhood programming—whether blindly repeating a parent's controlling dynamic or reacting to the opposite extreme—provides psychological distance and disrupts automatic triggers. Because people instinctively resist manipulation, realizing that past patterns dictate present choices helps restore personal agency. Countering Negative Bias and Reframing Happiness (102:24) Humans carry an evolutionary negative bias, frequently overlooking successes out of an unfounded fear that contentment breeds complacency. Drawing on a practice by memory researcher Larry Squire, who surrounded his workspace with photographs of meaningful experiences, Conti explains that positive environmental cues implicitly condition the unconscious mind toward optimism grounded in reality. Furthermore, Conti dismisses the ideal of being happy-go-lucky as an ungrounded form of escapism, redefining true happiness across three realistic pillars: peace in the present, contentment across one's life narrative despite inevitable tragedy, and a childlike capacity for delight. While the framework relies on intentional reflection to establish personal agency, both speakers note that individuals with severe trauma face distinct physiological barriers in the limbic system that complicate linear self-examination and require sustained external support.

精神病学家保罗·康蒂（Dr. Paul Conti）与安德鲁·休伯曼（Andrew Huberman）指出，个体的心理健康与自主性并非源于被动回避或盲目乐观，而取决于以“富有同情心的好奇心”审视内在叙事与童年行为印记，在反思与行动之间取得动态平衡，并通过强化基于现实的积极记忆来重塑无意识的心理环境。 审视无意识反应与探寻行为矛盾 (53:17) 康蒂认为，人的自我认知具有高度可塑性，但多数人常常因恐惧或缺乏方法而陷于机械的无意识生活，仅是被动地“汇报生活新闻”而非反思自我。在临床实践中，诸如一边抱怨某段人际关系（如令人精疲力竭的朋友莎朗）却又反复赴约的矛盾现象，恰恰构成了心理干预的关键线索，即“标记X的位置”。个体往往清楚某种行为具有破坏性，却出于渴望被认可、习惯性牺牲自我或害怕改变而深陷重复循环。 破除这种模式需要明确区分被动反应与主动选择。康蒂主张通过去除羞耻感的同理心探询，直面自身核心目标与实际行动的脱节。同时，行为改变需要通过医患或自我协同来设定现实预期，避免因一次性制定过高目标（如冲动地要求每周去健身房五次）而导致挫败，应转向通过小步累积（如每周两天）建立胜任感，从而将反思转化为现实行动。 破解童年模式与满洲候选人效应 (73:15) 在探讨心理阻滞时，康蒂与休伯曼指出，知行脱节往往源于早年未经审视的家庭动力学。例如，在过度控制型父母抚养下长大的个体，成年后极易走向两个极端：要么无意识地复制同样的严控行为以换取安全感，要么走向绝对放任而丧失建立健康边界的能力。缺乏对童年创伤的领悟，个体便只能陷入被动应对的闭环，而无法真正坐上人生的“驾驶座”。 当个体意识到自己的反抗或顺从不过是在自动重演早年的行为程序时，便能切断这种类似《满洲候选人》（The Manchurian Candidate）式的被动操纵感。人类的大脑本能地排斥被外部势力控制，正如20世纪90年代的反吸烟广告通过揭露烟草高管的操纵意图而成功激发青少年的自主抵抗一样，一旦看清当下的阻碍源自被灌输的程序，人们便能拉开心理距离，以好奇心取代内耗，重新夺回内在能动性。 内外加工机制与反思行动的平衡 (20:59) 针对商界与文化界中“过度内省导致行动瘫痪”的观点（如马克·安德烈森提出的历史实干家无需审视思想），康蒂反驳指出，纯粹的行动主义与过度内省均属心理失衡。高行动力者同样需要基础反思以避免收益递减，而缺乏行动的内省则会退化为习得性无助。此外，内省状态的调节（如利用NSDR或冥想）应以发挥最佳功能为导向，而非为了迎合外部标准强行压抑个体的自然特质。 在认知处理层面，个体存在“内部加工”与“外部加工”的不同倾向，但二者不可绝对割裂。将思维转化为语言或文字能调动大脑的检错机制，打破封闭思维的无限死循环。构建一个“受过检验的自我”（vetted self），既需要依靠内部反省建立清晰的道德与人际边界，也必须具备将假设置于现实世界中验证的谦逊，以防止陷入将主观偏见视作客观绝对真理的过度自我参照怪圈。 克服负面偏见与重构内在幸福感 (103:10) 人类进化遗留的负面认知偏见常使人忽视自身优势，甚至误以为关注成功会导致懈怠与丧失竞争力。针对潜意识对负面情绪的自动提取，神经科学记忆先驱拉里·斯奎尔（Larry Squire）的实践提供了重要启发：在其办公室悬挂记录过往美好经历的照片墙。斯奎尔指出，即使不刻意凝视，日常余光的注视也会形成内隐登记，使大脑长期沉浸在积极记忆中。这种策略并非回避现实的乐观主义，而是以真实发生的经历重构潜意识的基底气候，强化个体的心理韧性。 针对人生幸福的界定，康蒂否定了轻浮盲目的“乐天派”（happy-go-lucky）概念，认为完全脱离痛苦与警惕的纯粹静止更接近于死亡状态。真正的幸福建立在三大支柱之上：无需对抗内外纷扰的“宁静”（peace）、全盘接纳命运曲折与遗憾的“满足”（contentment），以及在细微事物中重新唤醒孩童般惊喜的“喜悦”（delight）。面对创伤引发的情绪时空错位，唯有直面现实反差，才能建立可持续的心理自洽。 对话总结指出，心理健康并非追求免于苦难的虚假平静，而是建立一套能够容纳生命冲突的稳定心智架构。然而，节目亦承认，当童年创伤引发边缘系统的强烈激活时，理性时间感往往会被抹去，单纯依靠自省问询往往不足以迅速恢复功能，需要结合具象的外化表达与必要的临床支持；如何在全球信息泛滥、技术侵蚀深度独处空间的现代背景下长期保持这种自我审视，仍是一个持续演进的实践挑战。

[40:42] Andrew Huberman: AG1 is, to my knowledge, the highest-quality and most comprehensive of the foundational nutritional supplements on the market. [69:03] Paul Conti: Insight is what sets us free and puts us in the driver's seat of our lives; otherwise, we're just reacting. [59:22] Paul Conti: you're showing both of us where the X's are... Let's dig where this X is. [99:41] having a dog in the fight [102:24] Hey, you know, I did that really well. [103:10] Larry Squire: just things and people and experiences that you liked [103:10] Larry Squire: in a vessel of awesome memories [103:10] Larry Squire: why wouldn't you? [106:03] Dr. Paul Conti: Pollyanna concept [112:53] Dr. Paul Conti: Unfortunately, no [115:50] Dr. Paul Conti: listing a bunch of things that sound like death [117:34] no one ever said they wish they spent more time at the office [119:33] that was a good way to feel [124:26] Andrew Huberman: we can be on our own side by seeing what we don't want to be controlled by [127:25] Andrew Huberman: Protocols, an operating manual for the human body

[0:00] And there's far more going right in any [0:02] of us, in all of us, than there is going [0:04] wrong if we're here, right? And if we're [0:06] listening to to educational material, we [0:09] want to better ourselves, there's so [0:10] much more that's going right in us, and [0:13] it's a good place for us to start [0:15] because it helps us to be able to look [0:17] at what's not going the way we want it [0:19] to be, what we where we want to bring [0:21] change in our lives, but we should start [0:23] from a position of strength. Welcome to [0:25] the Huberman Lab podcast where we [0:27] discuss science and science-based [0:29] [music] tools for everyday life. [0:34] I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor [0:36] of neurobiology and ophthalmology at [0:38] Stanford School of Medicine. My guest [0:41] today is Dr. Paul Conti. Dr. Paul Conti [0:44] is a medical doctor and psychiatrist and [0:46] an expert in recovery from trauma. He is [0:48] also one of the foremost public [0:50] educators on how anyone can build a [0:52] greater sense of agency, confidence, and [0:54] well-being in their life. [0:56] Today we discuss the practical aspects [0:58] of building and maintaining mental [0:59] health. In particular, how to identify [1:02] your natural strengths and the often [1:04] unseen opportunities to improve your [1:06] reflexive mental framework and [1:07] relationship with self and others. Dr. [1:10] Conti's approach to building mental [1:11] health and overcoming challenges with [1:13] mental health are very different than [1:15] most of the information that you'll find [1:16] on the internet and elsewhere. He has [1:19] decades of clinical experience and he [1:20] draws on that end data to explain the [1:23] specific questions that we all need to [1:24] ask ourselves when we're facing things [1:26] like lowered motivation, mood, or [1:28] challenges overcoming bad habits. Today [1:30] we discuss all of that as well as how to [1:32] balance action and introspection. And [1:35] this is very important because I think a [1:36] lot of people think about mental health [1:38] as merely an introspective process, but [1:40] as Dr. Conti points out, it's really a [1:42] balance of thinking and doing and often [1:45] involves more doing than thinking. So [1:47] during today's episode, you'll get a [1:49] specific framework of questions to ask [1:51] yourself repeatedly, that is every day [1:53] or every week, and specific action steps [1:56] to take so that you can truly become the [1:58] best version of yourself and derive the [1:59] greatest sense of meaning along the way. [2:01] I'd like to point out that Dr. Conti [2:03] also has a new book coming out which is [2:05] aptly entitled What's Going Right, a [2:07] powerful new method for optimizing your [2:09] mental health. And I've read the book [2:11] from front to back and I have to tell [2:13] you it's a wonderful resource that [2:14] includes both information and simple [2:17] worksheet-like prompts that can help [2:19] anyone through sticking points as well [2:21] as to build on what the title suggests, [2:23] what's already going right. So if you're [2:25] currently suffering or if you're doing [2:27] well and you want to level up your [2:28] mental health further, today's [2:30] conversation is definitely for you. [2:32] Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize [2:34] that this podcast is separate from my [2:35] teaching and research roles at Stanford. [2:37] It is, however, part of my desire and [2:39] effort to bring zero-cost to consumer [2:41] information about science and [2:42] science-related tools to the general [2:44] public. In keeping with that theme, [2:46] today's episode does include sponsors. [2:48] And now for my discussion with Dr. Paul [2:50] Conti. Dr. Paul Conti, welcome back. [2:54] Thank you. Thank you for having me back. [2:56] >> Uh congratulations on your [2:58] book, What's Going Right, uh a powerful [3:00] new method for optimizing your mental [3:02] health. It's an amazing book and you [3:04] also hold the record not incidentally, I [3:07] think, for the most viewed and [3:08] downloaded episodes of this podcast [3:11] ever, so Wow. [3:12] >> Um you know, you got a lot of Huberman [3:14] podcast listener fans out there, so um [3:17] >> they'll be reading if if they're smart [3:19] and they and they want to be better, [3:21] they want to feel enriched in all the [3:23] ways. So let's talk about um [3:25] >> Let's talk about individuals first and [3:27] then I also want talk today about um [3:29] interactions between people, which we [3:31] probably haven't talked quite as much [3:33] about, okay, at least not here. The [3:36] self, right? We all have a a name, a [3:39] self-concept. We wake up thinking and [3:42] knowing essentially who we are, what [3:44] bothers us, what we're excited about, [3:46] and um [3:48] the question I've been living with for a [3:49] long time is how malleable is our [3:53] self-view, right? Our and our [3:55] relationship to our self and and we can [3:57] define those, right? If we're not super [4:00] comfortable or completely happy with our [4:03] relationship to ourselves, [4:05] how much flexibility is there on the [4:08] on that whole picture? [4:09] I think it's very malleable. I think [4:11] there's a lot of flexibility, but we [4:13] have to be willing to look at ourselves. [4:16] You know, very often we're not looking [4:18] at ourselves. We're afraid of what we're [4:19] going to find or [4:21] um [4:22] we don't know how to understand or how [4:23] to bring change, so so we don't look at [4:26] ourselves and then we we can see [4:27] ourselves as inflexible and and and [4:30] think that we're just stuck in the same [4:31] place over time, but if we're willing to [4:33] look at ourselves and we bring the [4:35] compassionate curiosity to ourselves of, [4:37] hey, what what can I learn about myself [4:39] and what might I be interested in [4:41] changing in myself or in emphasizing in [4:44] myself, we we I think we can bring a lot [4:46] a lot of change. And the title of your [4:48] book, uh What's Going Right, uh is that [4:51] a good lens to start uh looking through [4:54] when we look at our self, like like what [4:56] what works, you know, um 10 fingers, 10 [4:58] toes, in my case I'm that a good place [5:00] to start, uh [5:01] you know, that I [5:03] feel some sense of agency over a number [5:05] of areas of my life. Is that the way to [5:07] start wading into the questions about [5:10] self? [5:10] >> I think to start off with what's going [5:12] right, it's not just a way of looking at [5:14] it because it feels better, but it but [5:16] it's consistent with truth. I mean, [5:18] there's far more going right in any of [5:20] us, in all of us, than there is going [5:22] wrong if we're here, right? And if we're [5:24] listening to to educational material, we [5:26] want to better ourselves, there's so [5:28] much more that's going right in us, and [5:31] it's a good place for us to start [5:32] because it helps us to be able to look [5:35] at what's not going the way we want it [5:37] to be, what we where we want to bring [5:38] change in our lives, but we should start [5:41] from a position of strength. And the [5:43] mental health system [5:45] really tells us to look at ourselves in [5:47] the opposite way, to look at ourselves [5:49] through what is going wrong and to put [5:51] labels on ourselves that that often just [5:53] make us feel worse or make us feel more [5:56] helpless or hopeless in understanding, [5:59] but but if we start with what's going [6:00] right and we bring curiosity to [6:02] ourselves, then there are processes we [6:04] can follow to understand and to bring [6:07] real change. What are some of those [6:09] processes that um people could use to [6:11] explore and if you would, what are some [6:15] questions that people can or thoughts or [6:18] or landscapes to explore where people [6:21] can ping themselves with specific [6:23] questions? So good places to start are [6:26] they looking at your self-talk. You [6:27] know, what are you saying to yourself in [6:30] quiet moments when no one else is [6:31] listening or when there's there's a [6:32] pause in the action in your life, what [6:35] are you saying to yourself? What [6:36] messages are you giving yourself? And [6:38] often times we're telling ourselves [6:40] things that about ourselves that are [6:41] often negative or often critical and [6:44] we're not aware that we're we're saying [6:45] these things over and over to ourselves. [6:48] So so that's just one strategy. And [6:50] another strategy can be to think about [6:52] the life narrative that we're telling [6:54] ourselves. So if you just tell yourself [6:56] about yourself or if you're telling [6:57] someone else about you, what what is it [6:59] that you say? What is it that you that [7:01] you say in a reflexive way and does it [7:03] match what's real and true about your [7:06] life? You know, we both [7:08] all people have these two foundational [7:10] pillars and and in the first part of the [7:13] series that we did in 2023, we really [7:16] sort of hashed this out and it was the [7:17] first time I really put together, hey, [7:20] there's a structure of self and we all [7:22] share this and I'd you know, I've been [7:24] thinking along these lines, but the our [7:26] our talk helped me to pull together, [7:28] hey, there there's something that [7:29] applies to all of us. Just because we're [7:31] human and we have a human brain and a [7:34] human mind, there is a structure of self [7:37] and a function of self and these [7:39] foundational pillars are where we can [7:42] look to understand ourselves better and [7:44] to bring better health. So if we are [7:47] aware of where to look and how to look [7:50] and we're willing to look because we're [7:51] not afraid of what we're going to find [7:52] and we have we have a belief that we can [7:55] bring change, then this is how we we [7:57] bring flexibility and malleability and [8:00] and we can approach ourselves feeling [8:02] really good that, hey, if I do this, I [8:04] am going to be able to make things [8:05] better. There's so much hopefulness to [8:07] that and it's it's reasonably grounded [8:09] hopefulness. [8:12] I have a question that might seem like a [8:14] a leap somewhere else, but it it I [8:15] promise it ties back to what we're [8:17] talking about. In your experience with [8:19] psychiatry and the brain and patients [8:22] and interacting with people in your own [8:24] life, [8:26] do you think that [8:28] there's tremendous variation or little [8:31] variation in how state-dependent people [8:33] are? Um you know, [8:36] some people it seems um [8:38] they you know, they're so affiliative [8:40] that when they're in uh relating to [8:43] somebody else, they they think and feel [8:45] completely differently than they do when [8:46] they're on their own. Mhm. And not not [8:49] necessarily even extroverted to for that [8:51] to be true. Um but that when they're [8:53] suddenly alone, um that that internal [8:58] state is very different, almost like [8:59] it's two different lives. Mhm. Right? [9:01] There's a reason why I'm asking this, [9:02] but I'm wondering about the role of [9:04] state dependence in how we think and how [9:06] we feel and how we uh think about the [9:08] things around us and think about [9:09] ourselves. For most of us, life is [9:11] moving very fast and life has a lot of [9:13] stressors in it and what ends up [9:15] happening is we're kind of rushing just [9:17] to keep up with ourselves. And and when [9:19] that happens, we become very [9:21] state-dependent as opposed to being able [9:23] to observe ourselves, to so to be able [9:26] to see, okay, I'm here and this is what [9:28] I'm doing and this is the people I'm [9:30] with and how I'm feeling and how I'm [9:32] behaving. To be able to observe [9:34] ourselves is how we knit together one [9:36] self across situations. So we can be [9:39] aware I'm different in one situation [9:41] than another, right? So so some of the [9:43] behavior then and the sense of self is [9:45] state-dependent, but there's a whole [9:47] self that's riding above all of it, [9:49] that's observing us and knitting us [9:52] together. What sometimes gets called an [9:53] observing ego and this is how we can [9:56] both be state-dependent, but also have a [9:58] self that that is true across all of [10:01] those states. [10:03] I'd like to take a quick break and [10:04] acknowledge our sponsor, Helix Sleep. [10:07] Helix Sleep makes mattresses and pillows [10:09] that are customized to your unique sleep [10:11] needs. Now, I've spoken many times [10:13] before on this and on other podcasts [10:16] about the fact that getting a great [10:17] night's sleep is the foundation of [10:19] mental health, physical health, and [10:20] performance. When we aren't getting [10:22] great sleep on a consistent basis, [10:24] everything suffers. And when we are [10:25] sleeping well and enough, our mental [10:27] health, physical health, and performance [10:29] in all endeavors improve markedly. Now, [10:31] the mattress you sleep on makes a huge [10:33] difference in the quality of sleep that [10:35] you get each night. 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[12:44] When somebody sits down to think about [12:46] their strengths or to think about their [12:47] self-talk or um [12:49] to just think about what they're made of [12:52] and how they want to change or not [12:53] change certain things, build on certain [12:55] strengths, [12:56] when and how should they do it? Yeah, I [12:58] think all we need to bring is curiosity. [13:01] Right? That's all and and curiosity [13:03] doesn't have to be overly serious or or [13:06] worried, right? It doesn't have to have [13:08] a gravity to it. I mean, it can, but it [13:10] can also be very light-hearted. You [13:12] know, there's so many things that we're [13:14] curious about, so many things we want to [13:16] learn about and this is great. It's [13:17] great for our brains and it's great for [13:19] our health to be curious and to want to [13:21] learn. But so often, what we leave out [13:24] of that equation is being curious about [13:26] ourselves. Right? And and that can be a [13:28] sort of high-spirited thing to do of, [13:30] you know, what is there in me that runs [13:33] through all the things that I do? How is [13:35] it that I feel so different doing one [13:37] thing than another? What are the common [13:39] threads of me that run throughout my [13:42] life? You know, this is this is a great [13:44] way to approach what's going right in [13:47] us, right? To be curious about [13:48] ourselves. And it's from there that it's [13:50] easier to see, wow, in one certain kind [13:53] of situation, I'm really not doing as [13:54] well. Right? Or I'm not as happy. Like, [13:57] then we can think about that and we [13:58] don't have to be afraid of it. So, [14:00] bringing curiosity to ourselves, what [14:03] runs through everything we do, and also [14:05] how we're different in different [14:06] situations, can help lead us to all [14:09] sorts of answers about what makes us [14:11] happy and what doesn't. When are we [14:13] presenting a true and honest self? When [14:15] are we presenting a false self that even [14:17] we know is false. So, I think the only [14:20] crucial ingredient is curiosity and and [14:23] then we can approach with seriousness [14:25] and gravity or we can approach with [14:26] light-heartedness. We can be alone or we [14:28] can be thinking with someone else. [14:30] There's all sorts of good places that [14:31] curiosity can take us. [14:34] It's interesting that you talked about [14:35] true self versus false self. Um I think [14:38] the more state dependence we have, the [14:40] more confusing that becomes, right? And [14:43] and I think [14:44] perhaps even more so in in this day and [14:46] age, [14:47] there seems to be not a complete, but at [14:50] least to me, a kind of partial erosion [14:52] of etiquette. I'm not saying this to [14:55] encourage people to be more rigid. It [14:57] just seems to me that [14:59] I'm 50 now. When I was growing up, [15:01] seemed like people would dress and act [15:03] one way in one context and dress and act [15:05] one way in a different context and [15:06] there's some overlap, obviously. [15:08] But now, there's this sort of propensity [15:12] for [15:13] not just oversharing, but there's [15:15] information from all corners of the [15:16] world coming through our devices all the [15:18] time and people are putting out [15:20] information about many facets of their [15:22] life all the time. Even people I went to [15:24] high school with who weren't [15:24] public-facing in the traditional sense [15:27] are putting up pictures of their kids [15:28] and what they ate and this and the the [15:29] wins and the losses and [15:31] it's a very odd thing to do when in fact [15:35] we evolved for so long just kind of [15:38] experiencing ourself [15:40] separate from all the other activities [15:42] that we were doing and certainly that [15:44] that other people are doing. In your [15:45] clinical practice, are you seeing [15:48] more challenges with people creating [15:50] separation between kind of aspects of [15:53] self and aspects of life because of all [15:55] the the the information coming at them [15:58] and and maybe even that they're putting [15:59] in the world? [16:01] I think it can be different depending [16:03] upon what the person is doing, how [16:05] they're using that information. So, so [16:07] if you think of falseness of of self, [16:10] you know, [16:11] it's possible a person can be engaged in [16:13] something that that even they themselves [16:15] know isn't real, right? So, so wanting [16:18] everyone to see what's what's best in my [16:20] life and to and to think that, you know, [16:22] I'm doing really well, you know, and and [16:24] maybe I'm doing that to hide something. [16:26] Like, why am I doing that, right? If if [16:28] I want to appear externally differently [16:30] than than how I am, there's a good place [16:33] for curiosity about the falseness of [16:35] that. What am I trying to protect [16:36] against? You know, why is it that I want [16:38] people to see me in a certain way that [16:40] might be different from how my life [16:41] actually is if it has, you know, not [16:43] just all wins in it, right? But but you [16:46] know, stressors too that might not be as [16:47] glamorous. So, so that's one way we can [16:50] use those resources. Another way can be [16:53] to engage in ways that are more true to [16:55] self. So, someone who has an interest or [16:57] a passion that it's hard to find people, [16:59] you know, right around them, uh but they [17:02] can find that more distantly. Or or [17:04] people who have a lot of sensibility and [17:06] compassion for for some of the difficult [17:08] things in the world who can find kindred [17:10] spirits through social media. So, so I I [17:13] think we can use or misuse anything [17:16] around us to to either be we can use it [17:19] to be closer to ourselves and and to [17:20] have a stronger sense of self, right? Or [17:23] we can use it to distract from who we [17:25] really are and to maybe find solace [17:27] somewhere else or find accolades [17:29] somewhere outside of us because we're [17:31] protecting against something. So, I I [17:33] think the the important point is is [17:35] always to be honest with ourselves. And [17:37] if we bring compassionate curiosity, [17:40] then we're not mad at ourselves and that [17:42] we're not coming at ourselves of, what's [17:44] wrong with me or why why can't I do this [17:46] thing better or that thing better or why [17:48] don't people like me more? Whatever it [17:49] may be, right? There there there are [17:51] ways that we can [17:53] you know, we can guide ourselves away [17:55] from from honesty and truth. And if we [17:58] look at ourselves, we don't have to be [17:59] afraid of what we find. Maybe if we're [18:02] worried people aren't liking us, we're [18:04] we're spending time with not a healthy [18:06] group of people, right? Or or maybe [18:08] there's something in in myself I need to [18:10] change if I'm feeling that. So, the key [18:12] is just bringing honesty and curiosity [18:14] and not being so afraid or so negative [18:17] towards ourselves that we're going to [18:19] hide from what it is that that we can [18:21] find to knit us together. Yeah, I'm not [18:23] trying to demonize social media, but we [18:25] are in a strange new version of humanity [18:27] where [18:29] let's say somebody's sitting by [18:30] themselves, chances are [18:33] their experience is vastly different [18:36] than it would have been 30 years ago [18:38] because they are [18:40] most likely getting a lot of information [18:43] about what other people are doing. [18:45] Could be good information. [18:47] Um could be interesting, but [18:49] nonetheless, it's very very different [18:50] alone state. And or they are doing [18:54] things that hopefully they enjoy, [18:56] but there's this additional layer where [18:59] it's put out into the world. This is [19:00] very unusual. So, the reason I'm asking [19:02] about this in the context of [19:04] addressing the self, exploring the self [19:06] is that [19:08] I wonder to what extent being really [19:10] happy with oneself [19:12] at some level involves being able to [19:15] be curious and explore different ways of [19:18] being and ways of thinking [19:20] without the impulse of sharing that and [19:23] without the [19:24] feedback comparison [19:27] of what other people are doing. [19:29] Because [19:31] >> [clears throat] [19:31] >> the moment we see something else, [19:33] there's more sensory input or the moment [19:34] that we think what we're doing it needs [19:36] to be shared, it changes the experience. [19:39] It's not truly an alone experience. [19:41] Right. Uh and I don't think it matters [19:43] if you put it out to one [19:44] follower or to a billion followers, it's [19:48] it's still externalizing this thing that [19:50] for thousands of years was just us with [19:53] our thoughts, us with our emotions. And [19:55] And so, processing time alone has [19:57] become, I believe, a very, very [20:00] different thing altogether. [20:02] Yeah, I think that's true. I think [20:04] there's a sweet spot of connectedness to [20:06] others. Right? And we know that it's not [20:08] good to have too little, right? That [20:09] that isolation isn't good for us. But [20:12] But where the modern world has gone is [20:15] is it is offers us too much the the [20:17] opposite, right? Where there's not [20:19] enough aloneness. Where if we're [20:20] overconnected, then in order to to to [20:23] decide what it is we even like or [20:25] prefer, how we feel about things, we're [20:27] looking for external cues. Right? So, [20:30] that sweet spot of having some external [20:32] check-ins, how does the world around me [20:34] feel? How do people I like and trust [20:36] feel? How do people who seem like me [20:38] feel? How do people who seem different [20:39] from me feel? It It's good to have those [20:42] tests outside, but have enough aloneness [20:45] that I am still thinking about myself [20:47] and the questions, right, of of life, [20:50] the questions of my own life, I'm [20:52] thinking about on my own before I'm [20:54] pinging outside of me for you know, for [20:56] information or validation or even [20:58] guidance. [20:59] I'm willing to bet that many people will [21:01] find just the [21:03] being alone introspective process to be [21:06] pretty anxiety-provoking. [21:08] Um in fact, there's been a little bit of [21:10] a [21:11] um semi-comedic exchange online recently [21:13] because uh [21:15] um actually our mutual [21:18] uh friend David Senra and David Senra [21:20] has a podcast with this very podcast [21:22] production company. [21:24] Um [21:24] He sat down with Marc Andreessen of, you [21:27] know, founded Netscape, a16z [21:29] investments. And Mark made the statement [21:32] that was very provocative, which was, [21:34] you know, great men of history didn't uh [21:36] sit around thinking about their [21:37] thoughts, you know? And And of course, I [21:39] knowing Mark, um and he's a friend of [21:41] mine, I I I think that was a bit [21:43] tongue-in-cheek. I think he was [21:44] I think he was pointing toward, I don't [21:46] want to speak for him, but I think he [21:47] was pointing toward the idea that too [21:48] much thinking and not enough doing can [21:51] be self-destructive. Of course, the [21:53] media ran with it and in classic [21:55] Andreessenian fashion, he [21:59] just doubled down and tripled down on [22:00] that message, which was fun for a while, [22:02] actually, because it got people thinking [22:04] about the role of introspection versus [22:06] the role of doing. [22:08] And [22:09] I have to say I think what he [22:11] contributed with those statements, [22:13] however provocative, [22:15] um [22:16] were [22:17] useful in thinking like, how much [22:19] thinking, how much doing when exploring [22:21] the self. We don't want to spiral into [22:24] a tunnel that we can't get out of. [22:26] But we also want to make sure that we're [22:29] putting things out into the world. So, [22:31] when you have a patient that is not [22:34] depressed, is um maybe just struggling, [22:37] right? Um so, no no clinical issue that [22:39] needs dealing with first. [22:41] How much do you encourage them to [22:42] explore the self through doing versus [22:45] thinking about their thinking? [22:47] It depends very much on who is that [22:49] person, right? And And And where do they [22:51] need to face to sort of break new ground [22:53] of self? And you you know, you mentioned [22:55] that most people would find the idea of [22:57] just being with themselves to to be [23:00] anxiety-provoking. And I think that [23:02] that's unfortunate. I think that comes [23:03] from a lack of leadership in the mental [23:06] health field and then the stigma of [23:08] mental health and and our fears, those [23:10] black box fears that we don't [23:12] understand. So, we're afraid of what we [23:14] don't understand. What we don't [23:15] understand is ourselves. So So, then the [23:18] idea of being with ourselves becomes [23:20] very anxiety-provoking. [23:22] And I think that's not good. I I I think [23:24] there are ways that we can go about [23:26] being with ourselves that we don't have [23:27] to be afraid of and say, if I if I do [23:29] that, hey, it's going to be interesting [23:31] what I'm going to find, right? And And [23:32] the reflection and the thoughts and the [23:34] ideas, the learning that comes from it [23:37] is going to guide me towards the best [23:39] balance for me. Right? So, there are [23:41] some people who are very assertive, [23:43] right? And they want to have high levels [23:45] of doing in the world, but they still [23:46] need some reflection. Right? There are [23:48] other people who are going to be very [23:50] reflective and they're going to be doing [23:52] less. One [23:53] We need to understand what profile works [23:55] for for one person. It's not one exact [23:58] place, but we kind of have a profile of [24:00] reflection and of doing. And if if we [24:04] are well-balanced, where we're asserting [24:06] ourselves in the world at levels that [24:08] work for us and we're finding pleasure [24:10] and gratification in ways that are [24:12] healthy, now we're finding balance. If [24:14] there's too much doing and not enough [24:16] reflection, not a lot of good will come [24:19] from that. We won't We'll find that [24:20] there's diminishing returns. We feel [24:22] unsatisfied, right? Because we're doing [24:24] too much and we're maybe taking less [24:25] pleasure in what we're doing. But if [24:27] we're doing too little, then, you know, [24:29] we can feel idle and there can be a [24:31] sense of learned helplessness. So, it's [24:33] finding what is the optimal range for a [24:35] person to be asserting themselves in the [24:37] world and then finding gratification in [24:39] what they're doing. And if that's going [24:41] well, we'll see it. There There's a [24:42] happy, balanced person. And if not, [24:45] we'll be able to figure it out. Of what [24:47] what is going on in that person? Is [24:48] there an issue somewhere saying the [24:50] unconscious mind, right? Are they [24:52] asserting more and too much and [24:54] reflecting too little? Right? So, by [24:56] looking at the person and going through [24:57] these steps, we can figure out what what [25:00] serves that person best and how might [25:02] they adjust from where they are now to [25:04] get there? [25:06] Is it true that there are just some [25:07] people who just don't really think about [25:09] their thinking very much? They just like [25:11] do stuff. I mean, I've had friends say [25:13] that, like, I don't [25:15] I'm not I don't want to speak for me. I [25:17] I'll speak for them. They'll say that [25:18] they don't [25:20] think about their thinking. They just [25:22] get up in the morning and they brush [25:23] their teeth and they use the bathroom [25:25] and they go about their day and they [25:26] they're not very introspective. They're [25:28] They're not um they're not called to [25:32] think about their thinking. [25:34] And in some cases, these are people who [25:36] are extremely busy, so maybe that's one [25:37] reason. But in some cases, there are [25:39] people who just [25:40] you know, for whatever reason that that [25:42] the mirror doesn't pop up in their [25:44] cortex. It It It's they're busy doing [25:47] and observing and then they seem [25:49] functional. Are they missing out on on [25:51] something fundamental or is that maybe [25:54] even the goal? I I ask this from a very [25:56] selfish perspective because growing up, [25:59] I thought, how cool would that be to [26:01] just like go through life, just do [26:03] stuff, not think about stuff from the [26:05] past too much, not reflect too much, [26:08] just like get stuff done. And I And I'm [26:11] a get-'er-done kind of person, but I I [26:13] think like most people, I also [26:16] I also [26:17] I'm forced to think about my thinking [26:19] from time to time. [26:21] When you say forced, [26:23] what then forces you [26:24] >> Oh, sorry. It just spontaneously [26:25] happens. I I reflect. Like, and the [26:27] reflections usually I'll try and [26:29] generalize these cuz it's This is not [26:31] about me. The reflections generally come [26:33] from [26:35] like, [26:36] is that something I should explore? [26:39] Like, is that a problem? Is the way I'm [26:40] thinking about or doing that a problem? [26:43] Or is the way that they're thinking [26:44] about and doing something a problem? [26:46] This us-them thing is it it it is kind [26:49] of what it boils down to and it's either [26:51] positive or negative. I confess I don't [26:53] really sit around a lot and think about [26:54] all the things going right. I should. I [26:56] have a gratitude practice. [26:58] I generally don't sit around and think [27:00] like, oh, like the the walls are up and [27:02] the ceiling is intact and I'm fed and [27:03] I'm healthy. And of course, until [27:05] something bad happens and then we start [27:07] doing we do our inventory, Right. Right. [27:10] But yeah, I just kind of wonder whether [27:12] or not there's a spectrum of of of [27:14] reflexive self-exploration. People have [27:17] different reflective capacity and people [27:20] have different reflective interest. So, [27:22] there are people who have more and that [27:24] could serve them well to be more [27:26] self-aware, but but also people may have [27:28] less reflective capacity, but be more [27:30] naturally generative. And then they're [27:31] just moving forward. So, the question [27:33] is, even though we have different um [27:35] natural levels [clears throat] of of [27:37] reflective inclination, right? Are we [27:40] happy? Are our lives going well? If life [27:42] is going well and that person is, you [27:44] know, they're healthy, they have good [27:46] mental health and secure relationships [27:48] and and life is going well and they're [27:49] not reflecting very much, like, that [27:51] sounds good. How I would characterize [27:54] that is they're living through the [27:55] generative drive, right? They're They're [27:57] being productive, contributory people in [27:59] the world. They're making the world [28:01] better. They're learning. They're [28:02] growing. So, they're making themselves [28:03] better. And they're just moving forward. [28:05] That's a great way to be. For most of [28:08] us, in order to get there, we do have to [28:10] be reflective. And And some of what will [28:12] will happen is it will come to us. You [28:14] said you're not kind of planning maybe [28:16] to sit down and be reflective, but but [28:18] then it comes to you, hey, I should [28:19] think [28:20] this possibility at hand and what are [28:23] other people thinking and if how's that [28:24] impacting what I'm thinking. So, you [28:26] become reflective because your brain is [28:28] leading you there, right? Because it's [28:30] it's saying, hey, we need to we do need [28:32] to stop and and think about things. [28:33] That's how we're going to make better [28:35] decisions. So, our brains will lead us [28:37] to reflection. But if we're moving so [28:40] fast or we're defended against it, [28:42] right, then we're not reflective and [28:44] that's not good for us. And that's how [28:46] you could see, for example, someone [28:47] who's always busy, so they don't have [28:49] time to reflect. But But the the the big [28:51] question is, is that person happy? [28:53] Right? If that person is not happy and [28:55] they're complaining and they feel like [28:56] they're working and never getting [28:57] anything out of it or never getting any [28:58] reward, then it's it's not good that [29:01] they're not reflective, right? They're [29:02] blocking themselves from something that [29:04] they need. There are spectrums that that [29:07] apply differently to different people [29:08] and we all reside on different parts of [29:10] the spectrum, whether it's reflective [29:12] capacity or it's assertion or it's [29:13] pleasure. But in terms of what we're [29:15] doing and whether it's healthy for us is [29:18] it's different for for we're each and [29:21] all unique. So, we have to stop and look [29:23] at ourselves. Like, hey, how's this [29:24] going for me, right? How am I [29:26] functioning and is it working [29:28] for me, right? Is it Am I pausing and [29:30] thinking enough? Maybe the answer is [29:31] yes. Maybe the answer is no. Maybe I'm [29:33] not sure. But But if I'm not happy, let [29:35] me go back and revisit that question. [29:37] So, this curiosity of self can lead us [29:39] to, oh, how am I built to function? Am I [29:42] functioning in a way that really works [29:43] for me? If not, why not? What change [29:45] might I bring? And And here again, we're [29:47] using the ability to understand and to [29:50] go through a process to to make our [29:52] lives better. [29:55] I realize these aren't clinical terms, [29:57] but someone recently said uh about [30:00] themselves that they are an external [30:03] processor. They need to talk things [30:05] through in order to understand what's [30:08] going on for them and [30:10] make decisions. [30:11] And that implies that some people are [30:13] internal processors. Is that true? Do [30:16] you see that in your practice that some [30:17] people do best by [30:19] like [30:20] thinking, sitting and thinking, walking [30:21] and thinking, driving and thinking, like [30:23] kind of working things through, and [30:24] other people actually work it out by [30:26] talking either to you or to um to their [30:29] friends or family, some trusted person. [30:33] Is that really are those two probably [30:35] not completely separate, but at least [30:37] semi separate bins of people? I don't [30:39] know that they're separate bins of [30:41] people. I I I think that the ability to [30:44] think and and to be objective in our [30:46] thinking differs among people. What [30:49] happens often is we get stuck in our own [30:51] minds, so then we're thinking, but we're [30:53] not thinking productively, right? [30:55] Because we get stuck in our own loops. [30:57] And and when we take the thought process [31:00] outside of us, so if we write the words [31:02] down or if we say the words, we say the [31:04] words to another person, then we're [31:06] bringing different brain processes [31:08] online, different error checking [31:10] processes online. So some of us can do [31:12] more of this inside and say, "Hey, you [31:14] know, I've been thinking about this for [31:15] a while and nothing's different or [31:17] nothing's going better. Like is there a [31:19] different way I can is there a way I can [31:20] think about it that's that's new or [31:22] that's different?" Right? Sometimes we [31:24] can do that, but a lot of times we just [31:26] get stuck inside of ourselves and we [31:28] have to bring different brain processes [31:29] online, like making words and putting [31:32] those words out there in in writing or [31:35] in speech is different. It so holds the [31:37] brain more accountable. That's why I [31:39] sometimes will just say something out [31:40] loud or we'll say something to someone [31:42] else and say, "Oh, I figured that out." [31:44] Or "Thanks for helping me figure it [31:46] out." And you might realize all you did [31:47] was listen, right? Cuz just by being [31:49] there, the other person is forming [31:50] words, you know, we we do more due [31:52] diligence inside of ourselves that way. [31:56] I must [31:57] confess I'm I'm fascinated by this [32:00] notion of uh [32:02] people differing in their [32:04] tendency to work things out internally [32:07] and then bring that forward into the [32:09] world. Maybe for more [32:11] help or [32:12] you know, some additional solutions [32:15] um or maybe just they made they've [32:17] figured it out. So they're bringing [32:20] a version of self into the world that is [32:22] um [32:23] vetted by them. [32:25] Yes. [32:25] >> I I I notice I tend to respect that [32:27] picture, Mhm. but I realize that's not [32:30] necessarily the way it always works. I [32:32] had a conversation with my sister this [32:33] morning. And um [32:36] I love my sister. We're we're quite [32:37] close. And [32:38] And what There was no friction, but the [32:40] direction she was taking what we were [32:42] talking about and [32:43] the direction I was taking it, they [32:44] weren't aligned. [32:45] And so we kind of did a little bit of [32:47] our brother-sister pushback and this [32:48] kind of And then at some point we both [32:50] realized that we we we weren't aligned [32:52] with the other person. [32:54] And we kind of arrived at this overlap [32:55] in the Venn diagram. And that's when it [32:57] was like, "Okay, there's some real [32:59] clarity that came to something [33:01] important." [33:02] And I thought like, "How cool is that?" [33:04] Right? She has her way of doing things. [33:05] I have my way of doing things. I don't [33:07] think I could have gotten there without [33:08] that conversation. [33:10] And yet it for the two-thirds Sorry, I [33:13] won't say her name for her own privacy, [33:15] but for two-thirds of the conversation [33:17] I'm thinking to myself like, "Oh god, [33:19] this is like this is already difficult [33:21] thing made more difficult by the fact [33:22] that there's this other picture of it [33:24] and then a version of it that she's [33:25] extra And But then boom, you hit this [33:28] convergence. And that's real synergy, [33:30] right? I certainly couldn't have come up [33:32] with that on my own. [33:33] So while I say I place value on the [33:35] internal processor, I I know with [33:37] certainty I could not have gotten there [33:39] if I hadn't actually felt and met the [33:41] friction of what she was bringing [33:42] forward and her willingness to bend a [33:44] bit and my willingness to accept a bit. [33:46] Right, cuz you're doing something [33:47] together. Right? You're doing something [33:49] together that that involved real and [33:52] open communication, so you have to be [33:54] able to say, "Hey, this is how I think [33:55] and feel." And put that out there and [33:56] test it and bounce it off the other [33:58] person and take inside what the other [34:00] person thinks and said. There's a really [34:02] complicated process there, which is how [34:05] human beings come to understand one [34:07] another or come to agree or come to a [34:09] place where where there's [34:11] um a way forward even if there isn't [34:13] complete agreement. Right? We have to do [34:15] these things outside of us. Most often, [34:18] if we're going to be at our healthiest, [34:20] we do want to be able to do some of it [34:21] inside, right? It's a good place to [34:23] start and we can do that alone with [34:25] ourselves. And and you know, we've we're [34:27] talking about reflective capacity and [34:28] inclination, but none of us knows how to [34:31] do something we haven't been taught to [34:33] do. Right? So so very often we haven't [34:36] had a [34:37] a way of going inside, of saying, "Well, [34:39] I'm going to think about myself and I [34:40] want to do that productively." And and [34:42] part of what I'm trying to bring to the [34:44] fore is that there are ways of going [34:46] about being with yourself, thinking [34:49] about yourself, thinking within yourself [34:51] that can lead us towards progress at [34:54] least and sometimes answers. And if [34:56] we're doing that, we can probably all do [34:58] more of that than we're doing. And if [35:01] we're given a way to do it where we [35:02] think, "Okay, this works for me. I'm [35:04] actually learning about myself while I'm [35:07] doing this and I'm bringing a vetted [35:09] self. I'm bringing my best self to what [35:11] I'm going to find outside of me." And [35:13] and that may be collaboration with [35:14] another person, right? It may be talking [35:16] with another person and coming to some [35:18] middle ground when there isn't [35:19] agreement. So if we start with ourselves [35:22] and we're able to to reflect and to [35:25] bring self-understanding to the fore, [35:27] we're much much stronger, right? In a [35:29] good way, not stronger in that we're [35:31] going to force our way through things, [35:32] but we're much stronger in terms of both [35:34] self-knowledge and ability to be [35:36] flexible when we're out in the real [35:38] world meeting other people. [35:40] Yeah, I think it [35:42] to me [35:44] um the [35:45] picture of internal processing [35:49] um [35:49] people [35:51] is one that and maybe I've seen too many [35:53] movies um [35:55] and shows from my childhood, but that [35:57] the picture is one of Okay, people who [35:59] internally process bring the best [36:01] version of themselves forward. They [36:04] don't burden other people, [36:06] but [36:07] I think by now we understand as a [36:09] culture that that person [36:12] while [36:13] traditionally was kind of revered, this [36:15] is a kind of a male-centric phenotype [36:18] here, picture that I'm drawing. It could [36:20] be about a woman as well. There's also [36:22] this idea that they're a little bit [36:23] disconnected from all the chatter. [36:27] But in my mind I have this [36:28] belief like if people are externally [36:30] processing a lot that [36:33] they're also revealing their [36:35] uncertainty. And that that's not a good [36:37] thing [36:38] to reveal to the world. [36:41] And again, this [36:42] probably reflects my age and the times [36:44] when I was raised and a bit about the [36:47] culture in my family, et cetera, but um [36:50] but I think in general that's [36:52] that's [36:53] like we never really talk about like [36:55] strong silent type, but lazy. [36:58] >> [laughter] [36:58] >> Right? Like we're thinking strong silent [37:00] and therefore getting stuff done. Right? [37:03] Like the the the the tacit message there [37:05] is strong and silent, so they're not [37:07] burdening other people with their [37:08] internal stuff. We also assume that [37:11] people who process internally are [37:13] actually processing, that they're not [37:15] just sitting there. I used to joke, you [37:16] know, "What's my bulldog Costello [37:18] thinking about?" And I I know this isn't [37:21] true, but I used to think it was [37:23] like noise. Like maybe he was just [37:24] sitting there white noising [37:26] white experiencing the world as white [37:27] noise. I mean, I don't know what he was [37:29] thinking about. [37:31] Could have been quantum physics. Um I [37:33] doubt that, but it could have been quite [37:35] And if it was, you know, He was good at [37:37] keeping a secret. [37:37] >> Exactly. Right. Yeah, and and the [37:39] picture actually works cuz he he was a [37:41] big kind of stoic dog. He had his joyful [37:45] expression, but there's something about [37:47] this notion of somebody that processes [37:49] internally [37:51] that gets a lot done. [37:53] And maybe even serves others, although [37:55] uh more than somebody who's processing [37:57] externally. And it's hard to probe this [38:00] area without kind of setting up natural [38:02] gender stereotypes here. You know, I [38:05] think the stereotype is that women [38:06] externally process more than men. [38:08] I don't know that that's actually true. [38:10] It just might be that men [38:12] process less overall. I mean, who knows? [38:14] I don't know what anyone else is [38:15] thinking. Half the time I don't know [38:17] what I'm thinking. So [38:19] do you think that people who hold it in [38:21] more [38:22] are coming to a greater understanding [38:25] and get more done in the world than [38:27] those that externally process? No, I [38:29] think not not necessarily. I I think [38:32] what's best for us is a balance. And [38:35] again, it's going to be different for [38:36] each person, but there has to be a [38:38] balance of things that I know and [38:40] understand inside of myself that um that [38:43] aren't up for question, that I am sure [38:45] of and resolved about. So it might be a [38:48] a line not to cross because because it's [38:51] a certain moral boundary. I know how I [38:52] feel about it and I know where I am I [38:55] know how I feel and I know where I [38:56] stand. So it's just one one example. [38:58] There are issues of self that we want to [39:00] feel very resolved, you know, how I want [39:02] to treat people in the world and how I [39:03] want to be treated, you know, for [39:04] example. It's good to know those things [39:06] inside of us, but it is good to then [39:09] test externally about how we're [39:11] interfacing with the world. If too much [39:13] internal processing can be too [39:16] self-referential and now I may think [39:18] that how I think it should be is [39:19] actually how it should be because I [39:21] haven't tested outside of me and I [39:23] haven't done enough of that testing to [39:26] see a lot of other people feel [39:28] differently than me. And and this isn't [39:30] a a moral point where I feel sure about [39:33] how I feel is actually more gray in it [39:34] that I than I might have thought as an [39:36] example. So there there has to be a [39:38] balance. I mean, it's always been this [39:40] way for humans, a balance of what we we [39:43] discern and know inside, but bringing [39:46] that vetted self to the world means that [39:49] the vetted self also knows that it [39:50] doesn't know everything, right? And it's [39:52] testing in the outside world to learn [39:55] what is it that other people are [39:57] thinking. Can I learn from that? So so [39:59] bringing an openness is also very [40:01] important about a lot of things. So I [40:04] think that no one way of being is [40:06] better. I think we all need a balance. [40:09] That balance is going to differ, and it [40:11] involves knowing things about ourselves [40:12] and feeling resolute and also having the [40:14] humility to face the world with openness [40:17] and and realizing there's a lot of [40:18] things I may think I know or think I [40:20] know exactly how something is or how [40:22] something should be, but but let me hold [40:24] on for a second and kind of check that [40:26] with the outside world so that I don't [40:28] become too self-referential where we can [40:30] become, you know, we can become bigoted [40:32] or prejudiced. I mean, those can be [40:34] outcomes, or we can just just step a [40:36] little bit in into it ignorance that [40:38] there that there's more in the world [40:40] than our own opinions. [40:42] As many of you know, I've been taking [40:44] AG1 for nearly 15 years now. I [40:46] discovered it way back in 2012, long [40:49] before I had a podcast, and I've been [40:50] taking it every day since. AG1 is, to my [40:53] knowledge, the highest-quality and most [40:55] comprehensive of the foundational [40:57] nutritional supplements on the market. [40:59] It combines vitamins, minerals, [41:01] prebiotics, probiotics, and adaptogens [41:03] into a single scoop that's easy to drink [41:05] and tastes great. It's designed to [41:07] support things like gut health, immune [41:09] health, and overall energy. And it does [41:11] so by helping to fill any gaps that you [41:13] might have in your daily nutrition. And [41:15] of course, we should all eat [41:16] high-quality whole foods, but most of us [41:18] are probably not getting enough [41:20] prebiotics, vitamins, and minerals, and [41:22] AG1 ensures that those gaps are filled. 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It tastes great, and [42:07] it's the only sleep supplement I take. [42:09] It has a collection of different things [42:10] in it that has dramatically improved my [42:12] sleep, both my slow-wave deep sleep and [42:15] my rapid eye movement sleep, and I [42:16] absolutely love it. Again, that's [42:18] drinkag1.com/huberman [42:21] to get a week's supply of AGZ and a [42:23] bottle of D3K2 with your subscription. [42:26] Vering towards some questions about [42:28] physiology and how it relates to all [42:29] this, but [42:31] um [42:32] I want to just peel back one more layer [42:33] on this kind of [42:35] you know, admittedly, you know, extreme [42:38] example of kind of [42:40] I don't want to use strong silent. I [42:41] want to be internal internal processor, [42:44] external processors. Um and and I I [42:47] actually right now I'll try and [42:48] disintegrate the the strong silent type [42:50] because people immediately default to [42:52] male, and I'm not doing that for [42:53] political correctness, but I think about [42:54] my graduate advisor, uh Barbara Chapman, [42:58] um incredibly smart person, and our [43:01] chair of department years ago, my chair [43:03] of department years ago, described her [43:05] perfectly when he said, "She's quiet, [43:07] but not shy." [43:09] Uh-huh. So she could sit and be in a [43:10] room and observe and pay attention, and [43:12] when she spoke, you really did get the [43:14] sense that it counted, high [43:15] signal-to-noise, because she wasn't one [43:18] to chatter much. Right. There does seem [43:20] to be this assumption [43:23] that if people are talking a lot, [43:25] that there's a lot going on in there all [43:27] the time, and some of it's just getting [43:28] out. [43:30] And that if people are quiet, that it's [43:32] either more regulated or there's not a [43:34] whole lot going on in there, [43:36] right? And I think my chairman's mention [43:38] about my graduate advisor really woke me [43:41] up. I thought, "You're right. She's [43:42] really quiet, but she's not shy. She's [43:44] not afraid to speak. She's very [43:46] organized and and deliberate in what she [43:48] says." Mhm. And it I can't say it was [43:52] always a value. Forgive me, Barbara. You [43:54] know, she's passed away, but like it [43:55] sometimes it was just, you know, casual [43:58] talk, but you did get the sense like [43:59] she's a thinker. [44:01] It's not white noise in there. Mhm. [44:04] And you do sometimes get the sense [44:07] that people who are constantly, [44:10] you know, sending words out into the [44:12] world, that it has an anxiety component. [44:15] It doesn't necessarily seem that [44:16] organized, but you and I are both men. [44:18] I'm sure many people know people who are [44:19] hyperverbal, but very structured Mhm. in [44:23] their hyperverbalness. [44:25] Right. So I I I guess I'm asking this [44:28] because I I want to kind of break down [44:30] the the notions of quiet versus verbal. [44:34] Introspective necessarily means [44:37] um calm. [44:39] Like [44:39] I mean, [44:40] so many assumptions around all this. [44:42] None None of None of it is necessarily [44:44] true, and the reason I'm I want to I'm [44:46] so genuinely curious about this is [44:48] I think that most of the world is [44:50] confronted with this Marc Andreessen [44:53] provocative question like, "How much [44:55] time should we spend in here, and how [44:56] does it serve us when we're out here in [44:58] the in the rest of the world?" Mhm. And [45:00] vice versa. Mhm. Like like [45:01] [clears throat] if we're just talking [45:02] talking talking doing all day, [45:04] maybe we are processing, and we can be [45:06] peaceful inside. Lay our head down, and [45:08] that's it. It's all out there, for [45:09] better or worse. But for us, it's great. [45:12] Yeah. But there's this assumption that [45:13] there's that we're constant whatever we [45:15] see is also happening internally. [45:18] Yeah, I think we have to just be very [45:20] very wary of of either mapping some [45:24] stereotype like this is good and that's [45:26] not good and applying some value system [45:29] to it when we're outside of looking at a [45:31] person in a context, right? Because all [45:34] of those things, you know, being [45:35] internalized, speaking less or being [45:37] hyperverbal, they could mean anything, [45:40] you know, anything under the sun. It has [45:42] to be who is the person and what is the [45:44] context. So if you're describing Barbara [45:46] Chapman in meetings, right? I interpret [45:49] that as she's she's communicating [45:51] judiciously, [45:52] right? She's in a place where maybe [45:54] sometimes people say excess things [45:55] because they're self-aggrandizing or [45:57] they want to bring something up or they, [45:59] you know, they're trying to guide a [45:59] conversation one way or another, and you [46:01] think, "No, that that's a place for [46:03] where less is more, right? We're not [46:05] doing that." And just communicating [46:07] about something that matters when it [46:09] matters. So wow, that's [46:10] judiciously. I mean, that's what it [46:12] tells me about her. I don't know if her [46:13] mind was going a mile a minute inside or [46:16] if there was, you know, a calm and [46:17] equanimity, but but I think who that [46:20] person was and what that situation was [46:22] was very was adaptive, right? Same thing [46:25] if there's someone who's speaking a lot, [46:27] but you know, they just have a lot of [46:29] ideas, and they're really constructive [46:30] ideas, and they're talking to people [46:32] about those ideas, and they're [46:33] enthusiastic, and it's helpful. Well, [46:35] that sounds good to me, right? That [46:37] sounds very different than someone who's [46:39] hyperverbal and they're talking, but you [46:41] you know, you can tell they're saying [46:42] the same thing, but coming from a [46:43] different angle, and they're anxious, [46:44] and they may want validation, right? So [46:47] so the person and the context makes all [46:50] the difference. I mean, we we want to be [46:51] able to identify, you know, when a [46:53] person might fit a certain profile, [46:55] right? You know, there are people who [46:57] are quiet because they said they're [46:58] strong and they're silent and there's [47:00] not a lot going on inside, but they're [47:01] resolute. Okay, that's a kind of person, [47:03] right? But we shouldn't assume that that [47:06] someone is that way until we've looked [47:08] at who is that person and what is the [47:09] context in which we're assessing them. [47:12] We're human, so we fit patterns, right? [47:14] But we're all unique, so you won't know [47:16] what pattern we may be fitting until you [47:18] really look at us. [47:20] One thing I love about your book is you [47:22] have probe questions. You you have [47:24] questions for people to ask themselves [47:26] Thank you. to explore the self. [47:28] And I think for me, that was a is a huge [47:32] gift of of the book and and the work in [47:34] it. You know, when I got to see an [47:35] advance copy, I was like, you know, [47:38] obviously, you understand the theory and [47:40] the science, and you're a clinician, but [47:41] for me, um like, "Okay, what do I ask [47:44] myself? [47:46] And how do I go about doing that? How do [47:48] I figure out what's going right as a at [47:50] least [47:51] as a stepping stone to maybe exploring [47:53] what's not going right, but certainly to [47:55] really understand where my strengths [47:59] might lie." And I think that's a it's a [48:00] really unique gift because I think that [48:03] um we don't have enough of that. I think [48:05] we have a lot of "What's going wrong? [48:07] Where are the friction points? What's [48:09] wrong with me?" [48:10] kind of stuff. Right. [48:12] >> And what's wrong with the world? [48:14] And I think starting from that place of [48:17] really knowing what the questions are to [48:18] ask oneself is uh [48:20] I just personally found it immensely [48:22] useful. Yeah. You know, and I realize [48:23] we're we're mainly discussing theory and [48:26] and um at up until now, although I'm [48:29] about to ask you a very practical [48:30] question, which is [48:32] assuming no pathology, no um [48:35] life-crippling anxiety or depression, or [48:38] panic, how much do you think people [48:41] should try and adjust their, what I [48:44] call, the autonomic set point? Like, [48:46] some people are just more, [48:48] you know, expressive with their hands, [48:50] with their words. They they want to move [48:52] a lot more, and if they don't, it makes [48:53] them anxious. Right. [48:55] >> Other people are more still. [48:57] And we, again, assume that if they're [49:00] physically still, that things are [49:01] probably a bit more still internally, [49:03] and that's not necessarily a bad thing, [49:04] but [49:05] there is a lot of emphasis, including on [49:08] this podcast, on [49:11] learning to sit with stress, learning to [49:12] sit with anxiety, [49:14] and not just letting it out or [49:16] experiencing it. And sometimes I wonder, [49:19] despite knowing the immense value of [49:21] those tools, I mean, I've benefited so [49:23] much from things like non-sleep deep [49:25] rest and meditation and things like [49:27] that, and I know others have as well, [49:28] but [49:30] I mean, how much should we be trying to [49:32] control our states? [49:34] I I do wonder if it's good for us um to [49:38] think that there's something wrong for [49:40] us if we feel a certain way. [49:43] Period. [49:44] I mean, controlling our states in order [49:46] to help us be at our best is different [49:50] from trying to control our state so that [49:52] we change ourselves, right? So so if you [49:55] you're finding [49:57] a deep state of peace that's not sleep, [49:59] right? You find oh that helps you be a [50:01] better you, right? That finding that [50:03] peace just say it gives you some [50:05] groundedness and you feel healthier for [50:07] it and you're better able to solve [50:08] problems. So you know, you're learning [50:10] something and doing something because it [50:11] serves you well and it helps you be at [50:13] your best. Right? That's different than [50:15] thinking oh I need to be different, [50:17] right? If a person thinks well I need to [50:18] be different then I need to be calmer or [50:20] more more peaceful. What does that What [50:22] does that mean? And is that person [50:24] imposing something external on [50:26] themselves? So there are people who are [50:27] very active and and yes, you could they [50:30] can sit quietly sometimes, right? But [50:32] they're not really built for it, right? [50:33] They're they're active people and it [50:35] works for them to be active and they may [50:37] be quite meditative when they don't seem [50:40] to be quite meditative, right? They can [50:41] be doing something and and we see a lot [50:43] of movement in them but but inside they [50:45] can be in a meditative state. So it's [50:47] it's so easy for for us to [50:51] it's well-meaning in that we're trying [50:52] to understand, right? We're trying to [50:54] understand ourselves and we're trying to [50:55] understand others and we're trying to [50:57] find patterns but but it's so tempting [51:01] to think that we know something, right? [51:03] Because we're just observing someone in [51:05] a certain state or we're observing [51:06] someone talking or not talking, right? [51:08] So what does that mean and we have to [51:11] ask the right questions, right? In order [51:15] to get there. So so the only way we [51:17] really know the answer is for a person [51:19] is we have to understand that person and [51:21] we have to understand their context. So [51:24] we must ask the right questions, you [51:25] know, you you had talked about trying to [51:27] write practical routes of approach to [51:29] ourselves in the book, right? I'm I'm [51:31] doing that because you know, think of if [51:33] someone wanted to learn physics. So [51:35] would you say well, just stop, go [51:36] somewhere and think about physics, [51:38] right? Like no, there there has to be a [51:39] route of approach of saying well, well [51:41] here's some of the basic knowledge, you [51:42] know, think about this, approach that [51:44] way, [51:46] read from this book and then that book, [51:47] right? Like there are ways that we are [51:49] guided in how to learn things and it's [51:51] interesting that we don't have these [51:53] guides for what's most important, which [51:55] is learning about ourselves. So it [51:57] brings us back to why it can make us so [51:59] uncomfortable, so anxious is okay, we're [52:01] going to sit with ourselves. well, sit [52:03] with yourself and and you know, learn [52:05] horticulture. It's like well, I don't [52:06] know, like I'll sit with myself but but [52:09] you have to help me [52:10] you have to help me figure out how to [52:12] learn that or I'm going to feel anxious [52:14] about sitting there if I don't know how [52:16] to go about it, right? So so if we have [52:18] the prompts to look at ourselves now, [52:21] what we're doing is we're making it [52:23] real. We're asking the right questions [52:24] of ourselves to think oh what how do I [52:26] function? What does work well for me? [52:28] You know, how do I think of myself? How [52:30] do others think of me? Am I introverted [52:31] or extroverted? Am I combination of [52:33] both? Do I sometimes feel in one state [52:35] and sometimes in another? Is it working [52:37] for me, right? Is it working for me in [52:39] the big picture? Are there parts of the [52:41] small picture that work for me or things [52:42] I really don't like or things where I [52:44] really don't feel uncomfortable? Now [52:46] we're bringing curiosity and yes, we we [52:48] want to learn from patterns and and [52:51] learn from all the knowledge we have of [52:52] the world but we're taking that and [52:54] saying hey, none of that actually means [52:56] anything until it's directed towards [52:59] me if I'm the person reflecting about [53:01] myself or if it's a helping process, [53:03] we're helping a friend or or you know, [53:05] we're in a therapy process. You know, we [53:07] have to take everything that we know and [53:09] then it's all seen through the lens of [53:11] that person. And we we have to do it [53:14] that way or we'll lead ourselves astray. [53:17] If you're willing, um I'm curious about [53:20] uh [53:21] throwing out a sort of a generic [53:24] clinical session [53:26] example. [53:27] Let's assume [53:29] you know something about the family [53:31] background of a patient and there's [53:33] nothing glaringly obvious in the [53:36] background about trauma or maybe there [53:38] is but you know, that there's nothing [53:39] really to dig into there just yet and [53:42] the person comes to you and says [53:45] yeah, I don't know. I'm like I'm like [53:47] work is okay but this and so-and-so at [53:50] work at that and I guess this is good [53:51] and [53:52] you know, and they're I don't know, [53:53] they're dating, they're in their life [53:55] and I swear I'm not trying to get a free [53:56] therapy session here. I'm I'm just [53:58] trying to imagine so someone says, you [54:00] know, and then like the news is really [54:02] bothering me and that you know, and [54:04] just kind of recording. Right. You [54:06] observe [54:08] human patterns. I mean, your pattern [54:10] recognition is presumably oriented [54:12] towards where there's emotion, where [54:14] there's patterns in them, how it matches [54:16] to templates that only you could harbor [54:18] the same way that a really amazing [54:20] neurosurgeon would look into the brain [54:22] and see [54:23] pattern of [54:24] epileptic seizure and would be like [54:26] okay, this is even without remembering [54:27] those specific cases, I know which [54:29] direction to go at this to explore. [54:31] When you hear all that stuff [54:34] and the stuff I'm talking about here is [54:36] deliberately meant to reflect what you [54:38] see a lot of on social media. Upset [54:40] about that political team, upset about [54:42] that political team. My life is this but [54:43] this but this but [54:46] what does that tell you? And what does [54:47] it tell you specifically about where [54:49] that person should invest effort into [54:52] thinking or doing? I realize it's [54:54] impossible to give it a pan prescriptive [54:57] here but like what does that mean when [54:59] somebody's just really absorbed by all [55:01] the things going on around them and [55:02] things feel good but Mhm. Mhm. Where do [55:05] you start to probe and where do you [55:08] start to [55:10] encourage them at least until the next [55:11] session? The way to probe is to [55:14] encourage reflection, right? Because [55:16] with what you said, I think well, I'm [55:17] hearing somebody reporting, right? It's [55:19] like they're just telling me the news, [55:20] right? Of what went on. I'm doing this, [55:22] I'm doing that. I feel this way, [55:23] that way, that way, did that. It's kind [55:25] of an inventory or a laundry list, [55:27] right? So what it makes me think is [55:29] I wonder how much of that you're really [55:31] choosing. [55:33] Right? Or how much of that is is [55:34] intentional or how much of that is just [55:36] a reflex? The behaviors that in their [55:38] life, how much of it they're choosing or [55:40] how or they're reporting? [55:42] No, the the behaviors. How much of what [55:43] they're reporting? Like how much of that [55:45] are you really choosing? Right? How much [55:46] of that is what you want to be doing? [55:48] How much of that is working for you? [55:50] Right? What we're trying to do then and [55:52] what I want to do then is [55:54] is encourage like to have some interest [55:56] in examination of like whoa, why am I [55:58] doing all of this, right? Maybe some of [56:00] this I really like and I am interested [56:01] in and others of it I'm just doing [56:03] because it's habit or it's routine. I [56:05] don't even know why I'm doing it or you [56:07] know, if I'm dating, who am I dating? [56:09] Why why am I dating? How am I choosing? [56:11] Is that is that also just something that [56:13] I do? How much am I just kind of along [56:15] for the ride of what I'm doing that just [56:17] has forward momentum versus what am I [56:20] really choosing? Now if we stop and we [56:22] look at it that way, what are you really [56:24] choosing and and also what's working for [56:27] you? Now we're we're off to the races of [56:30] an examined life and you know, we we see [56:33] this as I know you know, we do a lot of [56:35] intensive work. We do it with [56:36] individuals, we do it with couples where [56:38] we try and move this process forward [56:40] very very very very [56:42] rapidly of looking at one's own life and [56:45] it's very interesting that sometimes you [56:47] know, by midway through the second day [56:49] of an intensive process, the person [56:50] wants to revisit almost everything. They [56:53] realize, you know, 10-20% of of all [56:55] those things I just said I this is what [56:57] I do, right? That I really I really [56:59] value and and I want to be doing more of [57:01] the others I'm not so sure of. [57:03] Right? I don't know why I'm doing some [57:05] of those things. Now and we we are we're [57:08] really along the process of change [57:09] because we're looking at ourselves and [57:11] it may seem strange that someone would [57:13] see the 80% of what I just told you I [57:14] do, I don't know if I want to do or if [57:16] it's working for me but that happens all [57:18] the time when when we're not examining [57:20] our lives, they just kind of run forward [57:22] and we accumulate what we accumulate, [57:24] right? And and it's like well, this is [57:25] what we we are because this is what I've [57:27] accumulated by, you know, grabbing and [57:29] carrying with me as I'm moving through [57:30] life and there's not an organization to [57:33] it. So so this idea that we must examine [57:36] our lives is at the the heart of all of [57:38] this. That's how we we keep mental [57:40] health and our structure of self and in [57:42] our function of self. We keep our [57:44] drives in balance. We set ourselves on a [57:46] path where where we are in a place to to [57:50] meet future challenges from the best [57:53] health we can have and also to to meet [57:55] future opportunities. So just like we [57:57] want to do with our physical health, [57:58] right? We want to build good physical [57:59] health. Likewise, we want to build good [58:01] mental health. When that's the best way [58:03] to be when life throws us whatever curve [58:05] balls come our way and it's also the [58:07] best way to have a good life, to be on [58:09] the front foot of life. But we need to [58:11] examine ourselves and we need a process [58:14] and a structure in order to build good [58:16] mental health the way we go build good [58:18] physical health and ultimately that's [58:20] how we build good health. [58:22] So what I'm hearing is in order to gain [58:24] more agency over any areas of our life, [58:27] we have to ask the why question. Why am [58:29] I doing what I'm doing now and why [58:31] aren't I doing this other thing that [58:33] perhaps would serve me better? Like it [58:35] the it starts with questions [58:38] of self. [58:39] What do you do and this must be [58:40] incredibly frustrating, at least it [58:42] would be to me. What do you do if [58:44] someone you say well, [58:46] why aren't you know, the person says [58:48] well, I know I should work out but I [58:49] don't and you say well, why not? You [58:52] know, and they say well, I don't know, [58:53] I'm tired. I know I should [58:55] then you say well, [58:56] you know, [58:57] why do you still hang out with [58:59] Sharon when you always come back from it [59:02] feeling totally exhausted and feeling [59:04] like you've just said all this stuff to [59:05] me. You know, [59:06] you know, I don't know like what do you [59:08] how do you work past the the person [59:10] who's just kind of like this is just [59:12] life. This is just this is just what [59:14] life requires. I got to work, I got my [59:16] friends. Like what am I going to do? [59:17] Overhaul my life, you know, and uh and [59:20] and I this probably varies by region and [59:22] by generation the extent to which people [59:23] are willing to like look at things and [59:25] think and and kind of spin them around [59:27] like rotate the cube as I like to call [59:28] it and look at it from underneath a bit [59:30] and just as a practice. Like just some [59:33] people that's okay. Cool. You know, I'll [59:36] I'll you know, play the no one listens [59:38] to albums anymore, but the same way they [59:40] used to, but I'll play the album in [59:41] reverse for a bit. [59:43] Maybe it'll give me something different. [59:44] Maybe it won't. Maybe people are like, [59:46] "Ah, that's the album." Like that's just [59:47] how I do it. So, how do you get somebody [59:50] to do this? And of course, I'm not [59:51] asking you to [59:53] tell us this so that people can [59:55] play therapist with others, even though [59:58] they they naturally do. I'm asking this [60:01] because hopefully this is what people [60:02] will do for themselves. Well, if someone [60:04] is talking in the way of the the person [60:07] you described, right? We're saying, [60:08] "Well, this is just what I do." And and [60:09] they're describing, I think you said, [60:10] "Every time they go out with Sharon, [60:12] they come home and they feel kind of [60:13] drained. They don't feel good." Then [60:14] they move on to something else and and [60:16] to something else. They might talk about [60:17] their job and, you know, something [60:18] that's frustrating them all the time and [60:20] and they just keep going forward. Then I [60:22] might say, "Well, [60:24] what you're what you're doing is you're [60:26] showing both of us where the X's are, [60:29] you know, the X's mark the spot, right? [60:31] To dig, right? So, you're you're you're [60:32] showing us, "Hey, here's where there's [60:34] some treasure, right? Let's dig where [60:36] this X is." So, so if you're going out [60:40] with someone and and every time you see [60:42] that person, you come home and you feel [60:44] a sense of lethargy and you feel a sense [60:46] of time wasn't well spent and you kind [60:48] of feel hopeless. Well, it's really [60:50] important to to think about why you're [60:52] doing that, right? And I would link it [60:54] to something else. So, I might say, "So, [60:56] you know, you'd said earlier on a couple [60:57] of sessions ago that you really want to [60:59] find a partner. You really want to find [61:00] a good relationship." So, so that's [61:03] important to you. You told me that it [61:04] was. And now you're telling me that, you [61:06] know, you you keep seeing this person [61:08] where you know every time you go out the [61:10] front door that nothing good is going to [61:11] come of it and you're going to come back [61:13] feeling worse than than when you left. [61:15] Like we should look at why. And we don't [61:18] have to be scared to look at why cuz [61:19] this is where the fear comes in. Like, [61:20] "Oh my gosh, what is wrong with me? Why [61:21] would I be doing that, right?" Somewhere [61:23] inside of them that person knows that's [61:25] not working for me, but I'm still doing [61:28] it. So, there's some fear of looking at [61:30] that. So, if we say, "Hey, no harm, no [61:32] foul. Like let's just let's think about [61:35] why." You know, it may be that that [61:36] person really wants that that that [61:39] person, in this case I think it's [61:40] Sharon. I want Sharon to like them, [61:41] right? And and maybe they they feel a [61:43] need to be liked. So, they don't like [61:46] this person, but they think they need [61:47] this person to like them. Maybe. Maybe [61:50] they're a person who always takes too [61:52] too much care of others versus [61:54] themselves and they don't like Sharon, [61:55] but Sharon likes them. Right? So, they [61:57] don't really want to end that [61:59] relationship. Like there's something [62:00] going on there because the person is [62:02] saying, "Hey, I'm doing this thing that [62:04] absolutely won't get me what I want." [62:06] And I'll keep doing it. You say, "Well, [62:09] that's not really what you what you [62:11] want. If if if you if you are doing it [62:14] over and over again, you think you're [62:15] going to keep doing it, it's just [62:16] because [62:17] you know, you haven't felt empowered [62:19] enough that here I can understand myself [62:20] and I can bring some change so that so [62:23] that my behaviors my my choices are [62:25] actually in line with my wishes, you [62:27] know, with my strivings. So, now we get [62:29] that person interested, right? We tell [62:31] them that there is an X. Let's [62:33] understand why it is that you're still [62:35] going out with Sharon, right? There's [62:37] got to be something to learn there. And [62:39] and there always is. If if we dig where [62:41] the X's are, we do get some treasure. It [62:43] might be a little, it might be a lot, [62:45] but we learn from that and and we bring [62:47] that learning to life, the rubber hits [62:49] the road as that leads to real life [62:52] change. [62:54] That makes really good sense and and [62:55] thank you for the clarity of that [62:57] answer. It brings us back to asking why [62:59] to develop more agency around possibly [63:03] making different choices. It's not [63:04] always I mean it one I guess one could [63:06] realize like they they really [63:08] they want that kind of relationship, but [63:10] with someone else or they want a [63:12] completely different kind of [63:13] relationship with the same person, [63:14] right? Right? And and to work on that. [63:17] But it starts with asking questions. I [63:19] realize I'm going backwards into this, [63:20] but it goes from um [63:23] inventories are [63:25] a start toward informing what questions [63:28] are useful. [63:30] Useful questions probe understanding [63:33] that hopefully develops more agency. [63:37] Do you encourage people once they get to [63:39] a point of oh yeah, like maybe I want a [63:41] different sort of relationship to this [63:43] person or thing or activity in life? Do [63:46] you give them specific act action [63:48] directives like, yeah, like how about [63:50] between this session and next session, [63:53] like you go to the gym twice. [63:56] You do whatever there. [63:58] Maybe watch TV and just like pedal, you [64:00] know, on the bike and or maybe you go [64:03] and you like really take a course or or [64:05] a class rather. Do you tend to give [64:07] people clear directives about [64:10] what could really help if you sense that [64:12] that could really help? [64:14] Sometimes, but I think it's much more [64:16] effective if it's arrived at [64:17] collaboratively. So, so if we decide, [64:20] "Hey, you know what would be really [64:22] really good?" And we both agree. We [64:23] we've talked back and forth now. And if [64:25] if you can get to the gym once before [64:28] you come back next week, right? And then [64:29] we talk about that back and forth. Like [64:31] maybe that person wants to go to the gym [64:33] five times, you know, before they come [64:34] back, but each time they do that, they [64:36] get frustrated with themselves and they [64:37] don't go at all, right? So, we might [64:39] say, "Look, we've been talking about [64:40] this." And maybe I'll say it or maybe [64:41] the the other maybe the patient will say [64:43] it, right? And to say, "Look, I do I do [64:45] want to be going to the gym. I want to [64:47] be getting exercise. And I see I go [64:48] between too much and too little, right? [64:51] I go between taking on too much and I [64:53] get frustrated and don't do anything. [64:54] How about something that's more [64:55] measured, okay? Maybe I'll try and go on [64:57] Monday and Friday." Making it way beside [64:59] Yeah, you know what? Maybe twice is [65:00] twice is okay or should it be once? [65:02] Right? Because if you get once under [65:03] your belt, you can get twice under your [65:05] belt the next week. So, we're we're just [65:07] trying to understand so there's no [65:08] mystery to it and we we know what we're [65:11] doing. So, if someone who wants to have [65:13] a a different relationship and says, [65:15] "Well, maybe I could have a good [65:15] relationship with Sharon, but I'd have [65:17] to talk to her about A, B, and C that [65:19] isn't really going well." Okay, how [65:21] might you do that? Right? Like let's [65:23] think about it, right? Because that [65:24] communication isn't going to happen [65:26] unless you bring it and what's keeping [65:29] you from that? How might you approach [65:30] her in a way that you could really talk? [65:32] What's what's holding you back? So, [65:35] we're we're trying to problem solve, but [65:36] we're doing so in a way that's that's [65:39] open where we know what we're doing and [65:41] we're not bringing some magic or mystery [65:42] to it. We're trying to move ahead and we [65:44] understand it's one step at a time and [65:46] we want to take those steps. So, we [65:48] don't want someone to think often we [65:50] want a process of change to occur so [65:52] fast that we it can't possibly occur as [65:55] fast as we want it to and then we get [65:56] frustrated in 2 weeks, right? So, we [65:58] have to set reasonable expectations of, [66:00] "Hey, it might be could really get [66:02] somewhere with this in a couple of [66:03] months. It seems like that from our [66:04] conversations. What do you think? Are we [66:06] We make sure we're on the same page." [66:08] And then we say, "Well, 1 week after [66:10] another." Like we could put one foot in [66:11] front of the other and we can get [66:13] ourselves there. And it's not easy. So, [66:14] it might not be easy to say broach that [66:16] first conversation with Sharon or or get [66:18] yourself to the gym that first time, [66:20] right? But we can help with you bolster [66:22] yourself so all your arrows are going in [66:23] the same direction. You set yourself up [66:25] for success, you know, you're not going [66:26] to try to go to to go the morning after [66:28] a long night out and you know, we set [66:30] you up for success and you get a win. [66:32] And small wins empower and embolden us [66:35] to to to to take a little bit more [66:38] chances and get bigger wins. And you [66:40] know, if our if our structure of self [66:41] and our function of self are in good [66:43] places, then what rests on top of that [66:45] is empowerment. There's a sense of [66:47] empowerment in us and also a sense of [66:49] humility that that lets us accept that [66:51] we're human, that things aren't perfect [66:53] and maybe I have been making them same [66:55] mistake over and over again. Like it's [66:56] it's all okay. I'm I'm human and if I [66:59] have the humility to accept that and I [67:00] have empowerment, then I can meet the [67:03] world through agency and this active [67:04] gratitude. You know, I'm I'm grateful [67:06] that Sharon's still here and I can I can [67:08] talk to her, right? I'm grateful that [67:10] there's a gym for me to go to. I'm [67:11] healthy enough for me to get myself [67:12] there. And I've got enough agency inside [67:14] of myself that I'm going to do these [67:16] things that I've decided to do. This is [67:18] how we we make life change, whether it [67:21] be small or big. And how do we get to [67:22] big life change? It starts with small [67:24] steps. [67:26] I'd like to take a quick break and [67:27] acknowledge our sponsor, Function. [67:30] Function provides over 160 advanced lab [67:33] tests to give you a clear snapshot of [67:34] your bodily health. [67:36] This snapshot gives you insights into [67:37] your heart health, your hormone health, [67:39] autoimmune function, nutrient levels, [67:41] and much more. They've also recently [67:43] added access to advanced MRI and CT [67:46] scans. Function not only provides [67:48] testing of over 160 biomarkers key to [67:50] your physical and mental health, it also [67:52] analyzes these results and provides [67:55] recommendations for improving your [67:56] health from top doctors. For example, in [67:59] a recent test with Function, I learned [68:00] that some of my blood lipids were [68:02] slightly out of range. As a result, I [68:04] decided to start supplementing with [68:06] nattokinase, which can naturally help [68:08] reduce LDL cholesterol. And it did. In a [68:11] follow-up test, I could confirm that [68:12] this strategy worked. My blood lipids [68:14] are now back exactly where I want them. [68:16] Comprehensive lab testing of the sort [68:18] that Function offers is just so [68:20] important for health. I mean, how else [68:21] are you going to know what's going on [68:22] under the hood? And while I've been [68:24] doing blood work for years, it used to [68:26] be time-consuming, complicated, and [68:28] expensive. In fact, I used to spend [68:30] thousands of dollars per year trying to [68:32] get this kind of data. And the data, [68:34] frankly, were not all that good. But now [68:36] with Function, it's extremely easy and [68:38] affordable. A Function membership is [68:40] only a dollar a day, $365 a year. And if [68:43] you think about the information it [68:44] provides and the health challenges it [68:46] helps you avoid and the proactive things [68:48] that it can do for you to enhance your [68:50] health, I truly look at it as a savings. [68:52] To learn more, visit [68:54] functionhealth.com/huberman [68:56] and use the code Huberman for a $50 [68:58] credit towards your membership. Again, [69:00] that's functionhealth.com/huberman. [69:03] Okay, so once again, we're talking about [69:05] asking the right questions. [69:07] There's no doubt that our the families [69:09] were [69:10] born into and the families we grew up [69:13] around and the people we grew up around [69:14] impact us tremendously. [69:17] At what point does it make sense to try [69:20] and think about the patterns that you [69:22] were exposed to as a way to have more [69:24] agency, to ask better questions about [69:26] why? [69:27] You know, I think right now in addition [69:29] to this, you know, a little not so [69:31] little debate about the value of [69:32] introspection versus just doing and [69:34] clearly it's both, there's also a debate [69:36] going on about how much to think about [69:38] the past and traumas, etc. [69:41] I won't go into why this is really of [69:44] the times right now, but that the [69:45] dilemma seems to be [69:48] do you look at your life as something [69:50] that's happening now and focus on the [69:53] why question so you do what you need to [69:55] do to make your life better? [69:58] Or is there real value in identifying [70:00] patterns that you observed or were [70:03] forced to participate in as a kid [70:06] as a way of having more agency? In other [70:08] words, [70:09] if someone sees or just verbally hears a [70:12] pattern, does it actually help them make [70:14] change? Yes, it does. Yes, it's it's [70:17] insight that sets us free and it's [70:19] insight that puts us in the driver's [70:21] seat of our lives. Otherwise, we're just [70:24] reacting. So so in the example that you [70:27] gave, so imagine a [70:28] person who had a very over controlling [70:31] parent. So so they don't have insight [70:34] and they become over controlling [70:36] themselves. They they they associate [70:39] that high level of control with being [70:42] powerful. They feel less vulnerable when [70:44] they're being powerful. So they end up [70:47] being over controlling with their own [70:48] children just like their parents were. [70:50] We say, "Okay, we we can recognize [70:51] that." And we'll say it's pattern [70:53] repetition or whatever words we want to [70:55] put to it and we go, "Oh gosh, that [70:56] person doesn't have insight, right?" But [70:59] but when the person is doing the [71:00] opposite, that's not necessarily good [71:02] either. So so a person could say, "Well, [71:04] my parent was over controlling. I'm [71:06] going to be easy going, right? I'm going [71:08] to be more easy going." But if that [71:09] person doesn't have insight, then they [71:11] can become too permissive, right? So now [71:13] they're not even they're not controlling [71:15] things in a way that does make sense. [71:16] They're not exercising the healthy [71:18] control of a parent. So they could they [71:20] could identify with what the parent did [71:22] and do the same thing or they could push [71:25] away with from it and do the opposite. [71:27] But but the opposite isn't good either, [71:30] right? It's insight that lets us say, [71:32] "Oh, you know, my my parent or parents [71:35] were were over controlling and and maybe [71:38] that even it got to a place it was very [71:40] very difficult and maybe even abusive [71:42] and and I don't want to be like that, [71:44] right? I'm not going to be like that, [71:46] but I'm not going to rush to the [71:47] opposite pole either, right? And now I [71:49] have to I get to I both have to and get [71:52] to figure out what's a healthy level of [71:54] control." Right? How much control does [71:56] it make sense to exert to to keep the [71:59] child safe, for example, but also to [72:01] then allow the child enough latitude to [72:03] be growing and making their own [72:05] decisions. So it's insight that says, [72:07] "Oh, I I see. I see what that was in my [72:09] past." And often we do need to do that. [72:11] Often early childhood experiences, [72:14] especially experiences within family [72:15] units, have a great impact upon us and [72:18] often will guide our behaviors and then [72:20] kind of like automatons, we're acting [72:22] one way or we're acting another and we [72:23] don't know why. [72:25] But it's insight that lets us gain the [72:27] understanding. Here's how it was [72:29] when I was growing up. I can look at [72:31] that. I can see it, good, bad or [72:33] otherwise, right? And then I can decide, [72:35] "How do I want to integrate that [72:36] information how the whole me [72:39] is going to be in the driver's seat of [72:40] being a good parent." [72:42] So there seems to be something [72:44] fundamentally valuable [72:46] about [72:48] insights where [72:50] we realize, "I want to push away from [72:53] something, a pattern, [72:55] or I want to get more [72:59] like someone or something that it that [73:02] is uh you know, [73:04] would serve me better." Um and and I [73:07] realize that might just be a giant duh [73:09] based on what you said, but I'm trying [73:10] to think about what that means about the [73:12] mind, about the human mind. [73:15] I can imagine that there are instances [73:17] where people are in patterns of behavior [73:19] and they're [73:21] struggling with them. They they're not [73:22] working for them and they know it and [73:23] they want to make the change. This is [73:25] this is the thing I hear all the time. I [73:27] want to make I know I should do it. I [73:29] know I should do it, [73:31] but they don't do it. [73:32] What you're saying is when they when we [73:34] can [73:36] know that that pattern was something we [73:38] observed or we're doing the opposite of [73:41] something we observed, doesn't matter [73:42] which, [73:44] suddenly we have agency. [73:46] What do you think that is? This is this [73:48] is a different kind of question than [73:50] I've been asking up until now. What is [73:52] that? Because [73:55] my clinician can tell me, "Hey, you know [73:56] what? You should really start to eat [73:59] better and get to sleep on time because [74:01] we both know this isn't serving you [74:03] well." And the person comes back and [74:05] they're not doing the behaviors. They're [74:07] not changing their behaviors. They're [74:08] not changing And then you ask them, [74:09] "Hey, like what is this about?" And you [74:11] get to a place where it reflects [74:13] something in childhood. They're either [74:14] going against or they're going with that [74:16] pattern. [74:18] You're telling me that that realization [74:22] gives them a sense of agency. Aha, it's [74:25] it's comes from me, [74:27] but [74:28] I didn't program that in like what is [74:30] the insight? Like what allows that? What [74:32] is the wedge that lets people change [74:34] their behavior simply by understanding [74:37] that some or all of it is inherited from [74:40] a pattern? When we realize that there's [74:42] something, whether it's external or [74:44] internal, controlling us, [74:47] right? It it defuses that tension. And [74:50] and part of why it defuses the tension [74:52] and and lets us see clearly and gives us [74:54] control is because we don't like it. You [74:56] know, none of us want to be like in the [74:58] the Manchurian Candidate, right? Where [75:00] there's a sound and then we behave in a [75:01] certain way and you know, we're [75:03] triggered in a certain way and then we [75:05] just do something and we do it [75:06] automatically. Like we don't like that. [75:09] And and if we realize, "Oh, that's [75:10] happening [75:12] in me." So if I realize, "Gosh, I've [75:13] been programmed, right? And and if [75:16] someone is disagreeing with me, like it [75:19] makes me feel so bad or so vulnerable or [75:21] insecure, you know, it makes me feel [75:23] like I felt when I was a kid, right? So [75:25] now what I'm doing is I'm being just [75:28] like the parent was. I'm not giving my [75:30] child a chance to have his or her own [75:32] opinion and now I cuz I won't let myself [75:34] tolerate that feeling. So so what's [75:37] happened is it's just been automatic [75:39] from when I was a kid and it felt so bad [75:41] and now I'm in the position of trying to [75:43] make myself feel good by imposing that [75:45] on my own child. I don't want to do [75:46] that, right? Wow, I I see that or or [75:49] realizing that because that happened and [75:52] and I wasn't allowed to have my own say [75:55] when I was growing up, I'm I'm letting [75:56] my children kind of run wild in ways [75:59] that aren't even safe for them. And and [76:01] and wow, like I I I pushed so hard [76:03] against that, right? It's this [76:05] realization that that something inside [76:07] of us is is being triggered and then we [76:08] just do something automatically that we [76:10] haven't thought about or decided to, [76:13] right? That is a very very strong uh [76:16] effect on humans. We really don't like [76:18] that. So if we can combine that with [76:20] with compassionate curiosity, like if if [76:22] one of us were really really really [76:24] hungry and there's food right outside [76:26] the door, but we're not getting up to [76:28] get it, it's a reasonable question to [76:30] ask why. [76:31] Right? I mean, there's got to be [76:32] something very powerful to keep a person [76:34] who's so hungry from just going and [76:36] getting food. What are these forces [76:37] within us that are exerting such control [76:40] over us? Now we get the person to be on [76:42] their own side. Instead of saying, "I [76:44] want to do A, B and C, but I just can't [76:46] or there's just not enough time." [76:47] They're like, "Whoa, that's not you [76:49] know, I I don't know why is it that I'm [76:51] telling myself do I really want to do [76:52] it? If I do, what's keeping me from [76:54] doing it? How am I keeping me from doing [76:56] it?" Now we bring our gumption, you [76:58] know, we bring our our [77:00] resources internally and externally to [77:02] the problem and and the whole thing [77:04] shifts. [77:06] Oh, man. [77:07] That [77:08] helps a lot. [77:11] Not just me. I have to say people not [77:15] feeling motivated, people not being able [77:17] to break a pattern that isn't serving [77:19] them, whether or not it's action or [77:21] inaction, [77:23] is probably the most common question I [77:24] get. Mhm. It's the most common theme. [77:26] It's probably the reason why podcasts [77:28] like this can exist. I mean, I think [77:30] people have a natural curiosity about [77:32] the science and the intellectual aspects [77:33] and [77:34] you know, neural circuits and hormones [77:36] and all that kind of stuff, but I think [77:37] ultimately people want more agency over [77:40] their behavior. They want to feel that. [77:42] >> Yes. And I think what you said [77:45] is is [77:47] glaring in the room, at least for me, [77:48] that people don't like to be controlled. [77:52] So much so that we know that [77:54] we got kids to quit smoking [77:57] um back in the you know, in the '90s, [77:59] early 2000s by advertisements of um [78:04] rich old white men writhing their hands, [78:07] cackling about the health problems that [78:08] people are getting while they're getting [78:09] rich. That's what stopped teens from [78:11] smoking. [78:12] >> Mhm. [78:13] Mhm. [78:13] >> Right? It was you're not going to [78:14] control me. It wasn't that they didn't [78:16] like smoking. Nicotine's incredibly [78:17] reinforcing, right? The moment that you [78:19] have an enemy, [78:20] you feel the sense of agency. That you [78:22] you you said no, you're on your own [78:24] side. Mhm. So realizing one is being [78:26] controlled Right. is I'm I realize I'm [78:29] just saying what you're saying, but I [78:30] want to make sure this really resonates [78:31] in my own mind and for the listeners, [78:34] that's [78:35] the essence of of agency. You have to be [78:38] on your own side. And to get on your own [78:39] side, it's helpful to not necessarily [78:42] have an enemy, but to say, "Oh, this was [78:43] this is all about my parents and I'm [78:46] going in the opposite direction in ways [78:47] that are defeating me. I'm they're [78:49] controlling me even though I think I'm [78:51] controlling me." Boom. Right. Right. [78:54] >> Behavior changes. Or, "Oh, this is [78:56] just like [78:58] my mom or just like my dad or just like [79:00] the environment I grew up in." And now [79:03] you can somebody can advocate for [79:04] themselves. Yes. I also see this in the [79:07] in the media nowadays. I mean, there's [79:08] so much of social media is about us [79:10] them. [79:11] And gosh, people are like perfectly [79:14] happy for understandable reasons to be [79:15] like, "You're not going to control me." [79:17] We saw this during the pandemic. We We [79:19] see this at every level. What is this [79:21] human thing about not wanting to be [79:24] controlled that in this context is very [79:27] positive? Yeah. Yeah. We There's [79:30] something about the human [79:32] primate brain. [79:34] Yeah. [79:34] >> Yeah, like we we don't like to be [79:36] controlled. And that sense of agency can [79:39] can blossom out of that. [79:41] >> Yeah. I think that's incredible. Yeah. [79:42] We we we don't want to think or know [79:44] that that someone or something is [79:47] putting one over on us. Like, you know, [79:49] humans don't want to be dupes. We don't [79:51] We don't like that, right? It makes us [79:52] upset. And here the magic realization is [79:55] that there is no enemy. [79:57] Right? That that we can get in our own [80:00] way. And who's most likely to thwart my [80:02] efforts towards being healthier? It's [80:04] absolutely me. [80:06] Right? So, I can get in my own way, but [80:08] it doesn't mean I'm my enemy. So, if I [80:11] if I do really I want to be healthier [80:13] and I want to get to the gym to be [80:14] healthier. Okay, who's standing in my [80:17] way then? It will be me. That. But then [80:19] why am I standing in my way? Do I [80:21] secretly hate myself and I want myself [80:23] not to be healthy? No, it's it's not [80:24] that. If I'm standing in my own way, [80:26] there's a reason. I really think that [80:30] that I have so much to do and and and [80:33] it's for other people and it means more [80:35] than me. So, really I don't think I [80:37] deserve the time and energy it would it [80:38] would take. I'm not going to spend it on [80:40] myself. Maybe that's why I don't go. Or [80:42] maybe I don't go because I'm trying to [80:44] protect myself, right? Because I'm [80:46] worried the last couple times I tried it [80:48] didn't go well and I felt worse. So, I [80:50] don't even want to start. So, I'm [80:51] standing in my own way because of fear [80:53] of failure, right? There's a lot of [80:54] reasons. There's many many many reasons [80:56] we could be standing in our own way, but [80:59] we're not our own enemy. So, the [81:01] realization of like why am I doing this? [81:03] I don't have to do this actually. [81:05] There's one me and I can say, "Well, if [81:06] I both if I really want to go to the [81:08] gym, but I'm not going I want to go and [81:11] I don't want to go." [81:12] It must be true or I'd be there, right? [81:15] Why is it that I don't want to go? [81:17] Am I not worth the time and energy? [81:18] Maybe. Do I think there're more [81:20] important things to do? Really? I do [81:22] really think that? Right? And I'm not [81:23] admitting it to myself. Am I afraid that [81:26] if I try I'll fail? Right? There's got [81:28] to be a reason for that. So, let me get [81:29] on the same page. As I've often said, to [81:32] to to to further the example would be, [81:34] "Hey, you get to decide if you if if you [81:36] go to the gym or not. We just want you [81:38] to be on the same page with yourself. [81:39] Like, you can decide not to. If you say, [81:42] 'Actually, there're more There're things [81:43] that are bigger [81:45] priorities for my time now.' Someone [81:46] else is sick. I'm taking care of that [81:48] person. It really that is what I'm [81:50] choosing now." Okay, so I'm not going to [81:51] go now and the whole me decides that. [81:53] But, on the other side of this, when [81:55] this drain on time my time and energy is [81:57] different, then I am going to go. Right? [81:59] Now the person's on the same page and [82:01] they're not making themselves feel worse [82:02] by wanting to go and not going. Or I [82:05] might say, "I really do want to go, but [82:07] I know I'm standing in my own way [82:08] because I'm afraid I'll fail." Okay, and [82:10] then maybe I get upset. The last eight [82:12] times I tried I failed, right? You know, [82:13] now we're we're really digging you know, [82:16] where the money's at, right? Because we [82:17] go and look and say, "Okay, you're [82:19] you're protecting yourself. How do we [82:21] How do we try and set you up for [82:22] success? So So, you'll want to go [82:24] forward this time because you'll see [82:25] that it's different from the other times [82:27] and you won't just be repeating [82:29] something that just made you feel bad." [82:30] So, that's how we get our all our arrows [82:32] pointing in the same direction. We [82:34] realize there is no enemy here. There is [82:36] me standing in my own way, but like [82:37] that's okay. I I can look at that and I [82:39] can figure that out. And now we're at [82:41] that simple goodness principle where, [82:43] you know, we're all on the same page [82:45] with ourselves and we accomplish our [82:47] goals. [82:49] We wouldn't wish trauma on anybody, but [82:52] how is it then that people who had [82:54] reasonably healthy or trauma-free [82:56] childhoods, how do they operate in the [82:58] world? Are they moving toward things [83:00] from a genuine place of curiosity and [83:03] they're not pushing off anything in [83:05] this, you know, idyllic example? That [83:07] they're not [83:08] countering a childhood example. Does [83:11] that represent the ultimate goal that [83:12] we're moving towards things because we [83:13] want them and we're not resisting [83:15] anything nor are we copying bad patterns [83:17] from our from our childhood? [83:19] >> Yes, in the sense that I think that's [83:21] what I would map to living [83:23] intentionally, right? To being as [83:24] self-aware as we can be while also [83:26] realizing we can't be completely [83:27] self-aware and then living [83:29] intentionally. So, yes, that's what [83:31] we're trying to get to. And the presence [83:33] of trauma of of real trauma that [83:35] overwhelms our coping skills and leaves [83:38] our brain function different going [83:39] forward, it does make it harder, right? [83:42] To achieve these things, which is why we [83:43] want to look at trauma if there are [83:45] traumas in our lives and how they they [83:47] may have changed us, but it doesn't [83:48] prevent that. I mean, people can have [83:50] significant traumas and still be on this [83:52] path and and have some insight into how [83:54] the trauma is affecting them and and [83:56] even insight that the trauma needs more [83:58] work maybe to really get our arms around [84:00] it. But, that person can still get [84:02] there. Likewise, someone who hasn't had [84:05] trauma might have real difficulty [84:07] getting there. If I haven't had major [84:08] trauma, but, you know, just [84:10] circumstances or my own maybe overly [84:14] ambitious with not enough time and [84:15] energy. Hey, I did try and get to the [84:17] gym four or five times and it didn't [84:18] work out and I really do feel down on [84:20] myself and it's not linked to any prior [84:22] trauma. It's just I've gotten in this [84:24] cycle and every time I think about being [84:25] healthier now I'm telling myself, "Oh, [84:27] you'll never be able to do it or you [84:28] messed it up three times." And so, I'm [84:30] inadvertently making it harder for [84:31] myself and and without any preexisting [84:34] trauma, that person can end up having [84:36] much more trouble, you know, than [84:37] someone who does have preexisting [84:39] trauma. Or how do you respond to the [84:41] words, "I get tired just thinking about [84:43] it"? [84:45] Like something that would be good for [84:46] somebody. "I'm tired just thinking about [84:48] it." And it involves energy. Right. I'm [84:51] not giving you a very full picture, but [84:53] I'm guessing you've heard those words [84:55] before. Well, I want to understand a lot [84:57] more about that. Mhm. So, what that [84:59] tells me is there's a lot of brain space [85:01] and a lot of energy that's taken up in [85:04] the thinking of it. So, for for a lot of [85:06] people, they get so tired of thinking [85:08] about trying to go to the gym because [85:10] thinking about trying to go to the gym [85:12] takes more energy from them than [85:14] actually being there, right? Because [85:15] it's running around in their head how [85:17] they failed and how bad they're going to [85:18] feel and how they really want to do this [85:19] and maybe they will and maybe they won't [85:21] and there's so much going on inside of [85:23] them that they're making something very [85:24] very complicated. So, I want to [85:26] understand why all that energy [85:28] inside, right? And is there a way that [85:30] we can simplify that? That's a marker [85:33] that there's something going on that [85:34] that we we want to be able to get at [85:36] because it's not the healthiest process, [85:38] you know, to say that there's a lot of [85:39] internal turmoil about something that [85:41] almost certainly can be better [85:43] understood and simplified. So, that [85:45] statement represents 10 mental workouts. [85:48] That is as exhausting them. At least At [85:50] least that's the the the the the sense [85:53] it might give you. [85:54] >> Yeah. Well, with no im- improvement in [85:56] physical health. So, the 10 mental [85:57] workouts just dis- just wasted that [85:59] energy, right? There is no improvement [86:01] in physical health. Let's take those 10 [86:02] mental workouts and figure out, you [86:04] know, how can we turn that into one [86:06] physical workout? That person's going to [86:07] feel a lot better physically and [86:09] mentally. [86:10] I want to table a couple of common [86:12] statements about the mind and [86:14] psychology. [86:15] I'm perfectly willing to accept that [86:17] they're true, but I have a feeling [86:19] they're at least not entirely true. [86:21] Okay. One is however you talk to others, [86:24] that's also how you talk to yourself. Is [86:26] this just like nonsense? I mean, [86:29] there's some people that are very harsh [86:31] with other people. Are they walking [86:32] around being harsh to themselves? Are [86:33] they like just at peace within there and [86:34] they're like externalizing all I had a [86:37] a former colleague. Let's just keep him [86:39] anonymous. A former colleague. And he [86:41] used to say, "I don't get stressed. I [86:43] give stress." Mhm. I mean, that feels [86:46] true to me. [86:47] Um, [86:48] you know, he gave up all his cards by [86:49] telling me that. Um, but so I was [86:52] grateful for that statement. But, he he [86:53] was very proud of it. He's like, "I [86:54] don't I don't get stressed. I I give [86:56] stress." [86:57] And I thought, "I bet you he's pretty [86:59] stressed in there." And then I realized [87:01] I don't know what the hell's going on in [87:02] there. Maybe he's just absolutely right. [87:05] So, can we make that assumption that how [87:07] people treat others is really how they [87:09] treat themselves? No. Mhm. [87:11] >> Sometimes that may be true, but [87:13] sometimes that may not be true. So, the [87:15] statement has no validity. Maybe yes, [87:18] maybe no. You have to look at the person [87:20] and look at the situation. For most [87:22] people, when [87:24] when there's a difference between the [87:25] two, it is not the person who say is [87:28] externalizing all that stress, giving [87:29] everybody stress, but they feel calm [87:31] inside, right? That is not a healthy way [87:35] to be and there's something going on [87:36] there that's different, right? That That [87:38] is That is an issue that warrants really [87:40] looking at and address. There's a [87:41] problem there. For most people, if it's [87:44] different, it's the opposite where [87:45] people are treating others much much [87:48] better than they're treating themselves. [87:51] And they may say, "Well, that's okay, [87:52] you know, maybe we each made a mistake." [87:53] And I get it. Everyone makes mistakes, [87:55] right? I may say that to you, but then [87:57] go, [87:58] "What's wrong with me?" Or, you know, [87:59] I'm I maybe act very differently inside. [88:02] And that's mostly what good people do is [88:04] we'll give other people a kind word or a [88:06] benefit of the doubt, but we get very [88:08] harsh in our in our language and our [88:10] tone inside of ourselves can be can be [88:12] very different. And you know, this idea [88:14] of if you're if you're going to make [88:16] yourself special, don't make yourself [88:17] special in a negative way, right? I [88:19] mean, it's a it's you know, it partly in [88:21] jest, but it but it is saying for most [88:23] of us who are making ourselves special, [88:25] it is in a negative way. Other people [88:27] can can you know, can get um they can [88:30] get a pass about about something. They [88:32] made an honest mistake or, you know, [88:34] we'll give them another chance, whatever [88:35] it may be. But, for us, we may use much [88:37] harsher language, you know, "What's [88:38] wrong with me? I'm an idiot. I messed [88:40] that up again." And there's a lot of [88:42] that going on inside of us. So, So, no, [88:44] if we're if we're treating other people [88:46] kindly, it may be that we're treating [88:48] ourselves kindly inside, but but that is [88:50] certainly not a given. And if we're [88:52] being unkind to other people, that most [88:55] of the time there is some real turmoil [88:57] and and that person is not feeling okay [88:59] inside. The person who's making other [89:00] people unhappy and they themselves feel [89:02] okay, that's a different kind of problem [89:05] and it's not a common one. [89:08] In your book, you talk about intrusive [89:10] thoughts and things that people can do [89:13] to deal with intrusive thoughts. If you [89:15] wouldn't mind, could you give us a few [89:17] um [89:18] you know a few examples of things that [89:20] people can do to deal with intrusive [89:21] thoughts? Mhm. Mhm. [89:23] Well, the first is we have to identify [89:25] it. Then there are people who have [89:27] intrusive thoughts, something they may [89:28] say to themselves hundreds of times a [89:30] day, and they're not aware of it. Until [89:32] they stop and think, like what am I [89:35] saying to myself over and over again? [89:37] What's running around? Being aware of [89:38] our self-talk, right? The idea that like [89:40] we that like we're not going to we're [89:42] not safe or worried about one's children [89:44] and safety or worried about them I'm [89:47] going to get fired or there's not going [89:48] to be there's not going to be enough, [89:50] you know, these things can come to us [89:51] over and over again without us being [89:54] aware of it. So the So the first thing [89:56] is we must be aware. And it may sound [89:59] strange to say we could say something to [90:01] ourselves hundreds of times over and not [90:03] be aware of it, but absolutely that [90:05] happens. So So we have to be curious. [90:07] Well, what is it that I'm saying to [90:08] myself in these quiet moments? And then [90:10] what purpose is it serving? So if if I [90:13] keep telling myself that that nothing's [90:15] going to be okay. Like why am I saying [90:17] that? You know, am I so afraid that [90:19] nothing's going to be okay that I'm [90:20] trying to save myself from the shock of [90:23] nothing being okay? Maybe, right? Maybe [90:25] that's going on. Am I just so afraid [90:27] about something? You know, something [90:28] happened in the past, someone was hurt [90:30] or there was a loss and and now the [90:32] intrusive thoughts tell me that things [90:34] can't be okay. But what it's telling me [90:36] is I haven't processed that loss. Like [90:38] there's there is is going to be a [90:40] meaning. [90:41] There is is a meaning to intrusive [90:43] thoughts. There always is. So we want to [90:45] recognize them. We want to look for that [90:47] meaning. And then there's strategies of [90:49] what we can do. And and they can range [90:51] from thought redirection. Sometimes we [90:52] think something because we're thinking [90:54] it over and over again. And if we [90:55] thought redirect, it gives us greater [90:57] control. Sometimes we diffuse some of [90:59] the energy in it by understanding, you [91:01] know, why we're thinking that thing and [91:03] maybe taking measures. If I'm worried [91:04] that that like I'm not safe and things [91:06] aren't going to be okay, maybe I'm [91:08] letting myself be in an unsafe [91:09] situation. Right? And I need to change [91:11] that situation. This is a place [91:13] sometimes medicines can help. So there [91:15] there are there are a lot of things that [91:16] we can bring to bear, but we first have [91:18] to recognize that they're happening and [91:20] then running countercurrent to modern [91:22] mental health often is we have to [91:24] actually understand why if if we want [91:27] that to change for the better, if we [91:28] want to really get you know, get into [91:29] the engine and figure it out instead of [91:31] just trying to polish the hood and you [91:33] know, not look at where that problem is [91:35] coming from. [91:36] In keeping with commonly discussed [91:38] themes out in the world that I question, [91:43] are our dreams informative? [91:46] And is there anything that we can know [91:49] about ourselves like [91:50] patterns of thinking when we're awake [91:52] that make our dreams more informative? [91:55] For example, if I tend to think in [91:58] analogy or parallel construction, and [92:03] will the content of my dreams be more [92:06] meaningful to me to understand through [92:09] the lens of analogy or parallel [92:10] construction? I'm not sure about the [92:12] last point. I I I don't know. You know, [92:15] I just don't know and and my clinical [92:16] experience has been people's dreams can [92:20] have a lot of meaning, you know, [92:22] regardless of what kind of thinker they [92:23] are. So someone who might be for example [92:25] a very concrete thinker may have dreams [92:28] that are really telling us a lot because [92:30] what the unconscious mind wants to bring [92:32] to the surface doesn't have a lot of [92:34] room to do that, right? Because that [92:35] that person is you know, is thinking [92:37] concretely and they're not thinking in [92:38] in analogies or parallel processes and [92:41] they're not opening up their mind that [92:42] way. So the dream is expressing [92:45] something there's no other way of [92:46] getting to the surface. [92:48] Um or it may be people who are very [92:50] expressive and cultivate routes of [92:52] expression you know, have informative [92:54] dreams. I I I think the one the one [92:56] factor is being curious about ourselves, [92:59] right? Because then we tend to remember [93:00] more what went on inside of us. You [93:02] know, we tend to then either think [93:04] through enough or write down and and [93:06] become curious about ourselves. So I [93:07] think being curious about what our [93:09] brains are telling us during sleep can [93:11] be very helpful. I haven't known of [93:13] another quality characteristic of a [93:15] person that really points strongly one [93:17] way or another. And sometimes dreams [93:20] don't have meaning or they don't have [93:21] meaning we can we can clearly discern. [93:23] So we have to be careful. We have to be [93:24] respectful of how complex our minds are [93:27] and and sometimes we're looking to read [93:29] something in to a dream or you know, we [93:31] want to see it as a marker along the [93:32] path where you know, our thought is [93:34] going. So So we have to be very careful [93:36] and very sort of level-headed. But if we [93:38] approach that way, it can be remarkable, [93:41] amazing what dreams can can sometimes [93:44] tell us and how and how something can [93:46] come out allegorically in a person, you [93:48] know, that is you know, speaking to um [93:51] events that have unfolded across years, [93:53] you know, in a large family system and [93:55] and you find in a very simple way, an [93:57] allegorical way, the brain is capturing [93:59] that. So curiosity about ourselves and [94:01] our dreams can really give us a lot of [94:03] insight, but we have to be we have to be [94:05] careful about it and be respectful of [94:08] our own complexity. 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Rora's filtration technology [94:53] removes harmful substances including [94:55] endocrine disruptors and disinfection [94:57] byproducts while preserving beneficial [94:59] minerals like magnesium and calcium. It [95:01] requires no installation or plumbing. [95:03] It's built from medical-grade stainless [95:04] steel, and its sleek design fits [95:06] beautifully on your countertop. In fact, [95:08] I consider it a welcome addition to my [95:09] kitchen. It looks great, and the water [95:11] is delicious. If you'd like to try Rora, [95:14] you can go to rora.com/huberman [95:17] and get an exclusive discount. Again, [95:19] that's Rora, r o r r a.com/huberman. [95:23] In your previous book on trauma and in [95:26] our previous discussions about trauma, [95:28] uh you said that anxiety, trauma, stress [95:32] doesn't know the clock or the calendar. [95:34] Time is erased. [95:37] The negative feelings that one feels in [95:39] those states [95:41] seems like it's going to go on forever, [95:42] which is why it's so scary. Mhm. [95:45] So So suggests that [95:47] you know, the the way that we thread [95:49] ourselves through our life is by kind of [95:52] segmenting time. Like that was then, [95:54] this is now. Right? That's a healthy [95:56] version, you know, that the past doesn't [95:57] necessarily dictate the present, the [95:59] present doesn't necessarily dictate the [96:00] future. [96:01] But [96:02] I think for many people the fear, the [96:05] anxiety they feel uh for many people on [96:07] a daily basis, [96:09] it is so uncomfortable because we we [96:11] just [96:13] in those states we can't imagine feeling [96:15] any differently, but we cognitively know [96:17] that we Yeah, like this is just a state. [96:20] It's just a like a a thing. [96:22] What sorts of tools [96:24] do you offer people to try and anchor [96:27] themselves [96:28] in those states? Should they just feel [96:30] them? Perhaps. Just let them pass [96:33] through. Or is it useful perhaps for [96:36] them to anchor to some sort of [96:39] thing outside the experience so that [96:40] they they don't get carried by it. Like [96:42] that's like get out of the stress. And [96:44] And I think what I'm trying to do here [96:45] is get to a fundamental question. Feel [96:47] your feelings or be careful of feelings [96:49] that that put you out of sense of time [96:52] passage because those are tend to be [96:54] dangerous feelings. It has to start with [96:57] understanding. We have to be able to [96:58] shine the light everywhere and look at [97:01] what's true. So as I found myself saying [97:04] many times, you know, you can say that [97:06] was then, this is now, but your limbic [97:08] system doesn't care. Right? And our [97:10] limbic system is the emotion systems in [97:12] us. So So we can say, well, well, the [97:15] the past is in the past, right? So I'm [97:17] going to I'm going to put it in the [97:17] past. We can say that, but we're saying [97:19] that through logical mechanisms in us. [97:22] So if there's logical mechanisms and [97:24] limbic or emotion mechanisms, it's a [97:26] simplification, but you know, we can [97:27] look at the brain that way and say, [97:29] well, the logic mechanisms are telling [97:30] me that and are declaring that it's true [97:33] because the clock says that it's in the [97:34] past. But the limbic, the emotion [97:36] systems have a very different reality. [97:38] It doesn't They don't see it that way. [97:40] They don't know that there's a clock or [97:42] the calendar. So So it's not that that [97:44] was then, this is now. A trigger in the [97:46] now can make then now. [97:49] So we want to be aware of the emotions [97:51] that are going on inside of us and the [97:53] strong emotional states that we can get [97:56] into. Right? Because they're telling us [97:58] something. You know, if something [97:59] happens just in in going through life [98:02] and something that might even seem small [98:04] from the outside, but I'm triggered or [98:06] I'm cued in a way to be in a very deep [98:08] emotional state of of fear or [98:10] vulnerability like and I can map that to [98:13] like I felt, you know, when X happened [98:15] or like I felt [98:16] 20 years ago when this happened, right? [98:19] That's telling me something. Right? It's [98:21] telling me time is not like a steel rod [98:23] going, you know, in one direction. [98:25] That's the logic systems. In the limbic [98:27] systems, it's like a string, right? And [98:29] something just made me feel right now [98:32] exactly the way it took the string from [98:34] now to this thing that happened say 10 [98:36] years ago and it put the two parts of [98:38] the string together. That's real for me [98:42] and it's telling me there is emotion in [98:43] something from that time that I have not [98:46] worked through. Right? It was Was I [98:47] aware of that? Am I kind of aware of it, [98:49] but I'm pushing it down under the [98:50] surface? If If I'm having strong [98:53] emotions where I'm I'm lost in the past [98:55] while in the present, it's a marker of [98:58] something. And And very often we get [98:59] afraid of that. We turn away from it. [99:01] We're worried that that it's telling us [99:03] we're not healthy or we're worried we're [99:04] going to go crazy. Like these are the [99:05] things that people say, right? When this [99:07] happens. And so for us to know like, [99:09] well, that is not what's happening. This [99:11] is normal and and human, right? That [99:14] this is what will happen, these these [99:15] emotion systems that that pay very [99:18] strong attention, right, to negative [99:20] things, to to to negative emotions, you [99:22] know, fear and loss and terror and [99:25] despair inside of us. They don't know [99:27] the clock or the calendar, so they're [99:29] going to bring to our present, right, [99:32] things from our past that that are then [99:34] markers of saying, "Go dig there because [99:37] that is not just in the past. [99:38] Emotionally, it is still in your [99:39] present." [99:41] At this point in time, what what do you [99:43] think is the most efficient way to root [99:46] out and heal childhood traumas? [99:49] Bringing compassionate curiosity to [99:51] ourselves, where we just look at our [99:52] past and we look at it without sort of [99:55] having a dog in the fight, so to speak, [99:57] where like, "I don't I don't have to see [99:58] it a certain way." Right? "I don't have [100:00] to look at this." And sometimes people [100:02] will say, "I They will have to make it [100:03] less bad than it was because they they [100:06] feel otherwise they won't be okay if [100:07] they see all that was bad in it." You [100:09] know, others might feel they have to [100:11] look at the worst of it because they're [100:13] they're they're trying to anchor to [100:15] things in their in their life now that [100:17] they're not happy with and why that [100:18] might be, right? So, what it ends up [100:20] doing is it brings so much emotion into [100:23] it that we can't look in a way that has [100:26] equanimity, right? Because we're we're [100:28] living in the emotion. Now, we can't [100:29] feel no emotion if we're thinking about [100:31] difficult things that have happened to [100:32] us, but to be able to have that [100:34] observation of self of like, "What is [100:36] going on inside of me? What do I feel [100:39] about it? Where does my own mind want to [100:40] go? Do I want to minimize it? Do I want [100:43] to take it and dial it up so that it'll [100:44] explain why I did X or why I didn't do [100:47] Y, right?" So, we're we're we're trying [100:49] to observe our own motivations as we [100:52] look at our childhood. And and if we can [100:54] gain more equanimity that way, then we [100:56] can come to understanding that this idea [100:58] that we don't have to be afraid to go [101:00] and do that. And to say, "Okay, I can [101:01] look at this and I see this part of my [101:04] childhood or this person in my childhood [101:05] like that that wasn't good or wasn't [101:08] okay or maybe it was even abusive, it [101:10] was wrong." Right? We can look at that [101:12] and say, "Okay, what what what am I [101:13] going to do with that?" Now, it doesn't [101:15] define who I am, it doesn't determine [101:18] any one single thing about me. Right? If [101:21] I can look at it with a calmness of mind [101:24] and I can see the realness of how it's [101:25] affected me. Right now, I I start [101:28] talking about malleability, kind of [101:29] where we started with with malleability [101:31] of of ourselves and how we see [101:33] ourselves, then I can start to make [101:35] progress. But, we have to be able to [101:37] look at ourselves and very often we just [101:39] don't want to do that because we don't [101:41] bring compassion, you know, we bring [101:43] fear and criticism, right? But, if we [101:45] can just observe ourselves, now we can [101:47] get in touch with what what did happen [101:50] in childhood. What am I making of that [101:51] now, right? And then now maybe I might [101:54] want to put those words outside of me in [101:55] writing or in speech or I might want to [101:57] talk to a a trusted other or I might [102:00] want to see a therapist about it. So, it [102:02] it's taking the strong emotion that can [102:04] keep us from understanding, right? Which [102:07] can get very complicated, right? If if [102:09] we bring fear to our past, we're going [102:10] to see it through the lens of fear. If I [102:12] know I can look at my past and I don't [102:14] have to be afraid even if it raises [102:17] difficult emotion in me, I'm much more [102:19] likely to keep a calm presence of mind [102:21] and then to learn some things about [102:22] myself. [102:24] Do you think that people look back and [102:25] think about good things that happened to [102:27] them often enough? [102:28] No. [102:30] I mean, it is a clear no. Not often [102:32] enough the answer then is no. We tend to [102:35] have a bias in us towards the negative [102:37] and we don't stop and think, "Hey, you [102:39] know, I did that really well." Or, "You [102:41] know, that didn't come out the way I [102:42] wanted it to, but I learned from it." [102:44] Or, "I didn't come out the way I wanted [102:45] to, but I really tried." And we tend not [102:47] to do that and this bias towards the [102:49] negative means we we then start making [102:51] the stories of ourselves about the [102:53] negative. Or we feel like, "Well, if I [102:55] look at what I've done right, you know, [102:57] what's gone right in my life or what is [102:59] going right, then I'll get complacent." [103:00] Or like, "What is there to be gained [103:01] from that? I'm going to look at what's [103:02] not the way I want it to be." And really [103:04] quite the opposite is true, right? If [103:06] we're looking at what's gone well in our [103:09] life, at our successes and even things [103:10] that weren't successes maybe from the [103:12] outside, but hey, I I I grew, I learned [103:15] something, the school of hard knocks [103:16] taught me something, you know, then then [103:18] we are bolstering ourselves, we're [103:20] empowering ourselves by doing that. So, [103:22] no, we we should all do a lot more of [103:25] that and we wouldn't become complacent, [103:27] right? We we would become happier, [103:28] healthier, more effective in our lives. [103:32] I think when we talk about looking [103:33] backward, um most of us including myself [103:35] just kind of [103:36] reflexively go to, "Okay, my family [103:38] growing up or elementary school, middle [103:40] school, high school." So on. [103:42] I have a colleague from the past that [103:44] Larry Squire is a kind of a luminary in [103:46] the the field of of memory and it worked [103:49] out a lot of stuff about human [103:50] hippocampus and um when I was visiting [103:53] UC San Diego some years ago, um there [103:56] were a bunch of photos [103:58] on his office wall. [103:59] I was like, "Oh, cool." Like I was [104:00] looking at from meetings and things. I [104:01] figured if they're on his wall, I'm [104:03] allowed to look at them. So, I like [104:04] probing around. Oh, there's so-and-so. [104:05] And he said, "You know, having [104:06] photographs on your wall of times that [104:09] were really good is is very good for [104:11] your for your adult memory and it cues [104:13] up emotional states for you." [104:15] And this is where it got interesting cuz [104:17] he studied explicit and implicit memory. [104:19] The ones that we're aware of versus the [104:20] ones we're not aware of just to be to be [104:22] clear to people. [104:24] And he said, "Even if you don't look at [104:26] them [104:27] deliberately each day when walking past [104:29] them, if you have some, [104:31] you know, implicit understanding about [104:33] what those are, [104:34] you're surrounding yourself with [104:35] positive memories." Yes. And I thought, [104:38] "That's pretty cool." And he's not just [104:40] somebody saying this, right? This wasn't [104:42] some [104:43] Right. you know, just thing thrown out [104:44] into the world. This is arguably one of [104:47] the people who knows more about human [104:48] memory structure function than anybody [104:51] in the past 200 years or so. [104:53] Uh that's cool. And I so I said, you [104:55] know, "So, should be party? Should be [104:56] the" And he just said, "Just things and [104:58] people and experiences that you liked." [105:00] Mhm. You just put them up. [105:02] And I said, "Do you find yourself [105:03] looking at them on your wall?" And he [105:05] goes, "Yeah, from time to time, but he's [105:07] like, I'm basically in a vessel of [105:09] awesome memories and [105:11] doesn't, you know, solve all my [105:12] problems, but but why wouldn't you?" And [105:15] I I think that's such a cool idea. Um [105:18] and uh these days we spend a lot of time [105:20] looking at other people's experiences, a [105:22] lot of news coming in and things like [105:23] that. I wonder if we're just doing a lot [105:25] less of this. And as a last point, I've [105:28] always [105:29] um [105:31] liked, I mean, who knows what's really [105:32] going on behind the scenes, but I've [105:34] always like you go into somebody's home [105:35] and they you walk down a stairwell or up [105:37] a stairwell sometimes and they've just [105:38] got the wall littered with all these [105:40] photos. Not necessarily big family, [105:42] sometimes yes, sometimes no. And you're [105:44] like, "Wow, like they're like posting [105:45] all their experiences." And I I think [105:47] it's kind of cool. I I don't tend to do [105:49] it. [105:50] Um [105:51] but this is a version of thinking about [105:53] and exposing oneself, kind of basking in [105:55] the past in a positive way. I think it's [105:58] kind of kind of cool. Maybe we should do [106:00] more of it. Absolutely. I think what [106:03] he's talking about and what you're [106:04] talking about here is actually being [106:06] able to have control over the climate [106:09] within us, right? The the structure of [106:12] self, which is foundational, has at its [106:14] foundation our unconscious mind. And the [106:17] unconscious mind sets parameters for us. [106:19] It's kind of the climate in which we're [106:20] living. And if that climate is being [106:23] predisposed, it's programmed, right, to [106:25] to have a bias towards the negative [106:27] because we're thinking negative thoughts [106:30] a lot of the time. We're thinking about [106:31] what we did wrong or what we should have [106:32] done differently or what's going to go [106:34] wrong, then we're biasing the [106:36] unconscious mind to throw to the surface [106:39] the negative answer. We should Am I [106:40] going to be able to do that? No. Right? [106:42] We're biased towards the negative. Now, [106:43] we don't know why. Why did I say no [106:45] instead of yes? Right? That arises from [106:48] the climate inside of me, which is my [106:50] unconscious mind. So, he's saying, "Hey, [106:52] you can sort of pre-program a bias into [106:55] you towards the positive." And it's not [106:57] a false bias. Those memories that are up [107:00] on his wall are real, right? And whether [107:02] he's looking at them or he's just kind [107:05] of glancing and he walks by and there's [107:06] a registration inside, you know, that he [107:08] that he's not even aware of, right? He's [107:11] he is priming the unconscious mind to to [107:14] see the positive side of things. If he [107:16] thinks, "Well, can I do that?" Or, "Yes, [107:18] I I I can, right?" It it changes things [107:20] inside of him and he's then able to [107:22] exercise control over his own climate. [107:25] And we can do that, too. And often what [107:27] we're inadvertently doing is creating a [107:29] climate of fear and a a climate that [107:33] that is that lacks confidence, right, [107:35] inside of us because we're just looking [107:37] at the negative all the time, whether [107:38] it's about us or the world around us. [107:41] And that's the reason why the the title [107:42] of that book is what's going right cuz [107:44] there's way more going right in all of [107:46] us than there is going wrong or we [107:48] wouldn't be here. So, why not prime [107:51] ourselves with that the way that he was [107:53] doing with the photographs on the wall? [107:55] It absolutely makes sense and it's not a [107:58] Pollyanna concept. It's not saying, [108:00] "Well, just look at what's going right." [108:01] It's saying, "No, this is consistent [108:03] with what's real and true and it's good [108:06] for you, too. It helps you be effective [108:08] in the world. It helps your mental [108:09] health. Helping your mental health helps [108:11] your physical health. It everything [108:13] about this aligns with truth and it sets [108:15] us up to be in better control of our [108:17] lives and to be on the front foot as [108:19] we're approaching life. [108:21] I'm going to start printing out some [108:22] photos and posting them cuz I don't do [108:24] enough of that because of all the online [108:26] stuff. I just I have photos, but [108:29] I just feel like that's just remember [108:30] this Larry Squire thing now as we were [108:33] talking about this, but I'm definitely [108:34] going to do that. [108:35] >> Yeah, I'm going to do more of it, too. [108:36] It's a good reminder to do that. [108:37] >> Yeah, our physical spaces [108:40] you know, to [108:41] impact us so much and um [108:44] yeah, there are a lot of a lot of good [108:45] memories and some hard ones, too, but [108:46] I'll put up the good memories, you know, [108:48] that [108:49] uh it makes perfect sense to me why one [108:50] would want to do that. [108:52] Earlier we were talking about the sense [108:55] of [108:56] internal control that we feel, the sense [108:58] of being on one's own side when we're [108:59] pushing off against something. [109:02] And I have to ask, I I'm fascinated by [109:05] scripture and by spirituality and [109:08] notions of God and devil. [109:09] I mean [109:11] if people are told I'm not telling [109:13] people what to believe, but we are we [109:14] are told many people are told that there [109:16] are evil forces out there or perhaps [109:19] even in us and there are positive forces [109:21] out there and in us. Typically this is [109:23] presented as God and devil. Just for [109:24] sake of conversation we'll stay with [109:26] that. [109:27] Do you think that it helps people choose [109:29] better behaviors [109:31] by [109:32] being told and believing that there's a [109:35] devil out there or inside of them to [109:37] push against and therefore to be more on [109:40] their own side? And of course if it's [109:42] internal it's [109:43] it's a an aspect of [109:45] their own side that is better than the [109:48] bad decision-maker in them. Right? So [109:50] the the way I'm wording it is a little [109:51] complicated, but I can't think of a [109:52] simpler way to get there. [109:54] If so this seems like a brilliant [109:58] idea, right? If it's true or not it's [110:00] not up to me to tell people, but one has [110:03] to choose for themselves, but [110:05] if the best way to [110:06] to change one's behavior [110:09] is to be on one's own side and the best [110:11] way to be on one's own side is to not be [110:14] controlled by something else and to [110:16] actively be resisting that [110:18] seems like this God-devil thing is [110:19] pretty rational. I think maybe from the [110:22] psychological perspective yes and no. I [110:25] think if we get too over reductionist, [110:27] you know, there's a single force of good [110:29] and there's a single force of evil. I [110:31] think our major religious [110:34] tenets I think do see [110:37] the world we live in is more complicated [110:39] than that. That that that there is more [110:41] than just a single force of good and a [110:42] single force of evil because then I [110:44] think what we tend to do is over [110:48] identify. Either I want to be the good [110:50] force, but I can't be good enough and [110:52] I've done something wrong and and now I [110:54] feel that I feel bad about myself [110:56] because I now I feel evil because I [110:58] don't feel good enough or I feel that [111:01] the evil in the world is clearly coming [111:03] for me and it's directed for me. It's a [111:05] force directed at me. We can tend to [111:07] personify then good and evil and and [111:11] either over identify or [111:14] feel that we are beleaguered, right? So [111:16] if we over identify that we want to be [111:17] good and we do something wrong we feel [111:19] bad, right? That that that there can be [111:22] a push towards self-persecuting or [111:25] really not understanding ourselves if we [111:27] over simplify. If we think in a broader [111:30] way which I do think is consistent with [111:32] with spirituality and I think it's [111:33] consistent with the spirituality of [111:36] major traditions and we see there are [111:38] forces for good. There are pushes [111:40] towards good in the universe around us [111:43] and that includes within us and there [111:45] are forces towards what is not good. [111:47] Towards looking the other way for [111:48] example from someone's needs, right? Not [111:50] something that's pure evil. Like most of [111:52] us aren't going to step on someone when [111:53] they're down, but could we be tempted to [111:55] look the other way, right? If we see [111:57] there's a lot of subtlety and nuance to [112:00] to how good and evil plays out in the [112:02] world around us and inside of ourselves, [112:05] then I think we're viewing ourselves and [112:07] the world around us much more consistent [112:09] with what religion says and I think also [112:11] where science [112:12] guides us and is more and more guiding [112:14] us as we have more and more knowledge [112:16] and understanding. Now we feel that [112:18] we're part of something greater than us, [112:20] right? There are forces that push [112:21] towards good and forces that push [112:23] towards evil. Forces that push towards [112:25] construction and and towards destruction [112:28] and and we know how we want to be and [112:30] where we want to be, you know, in that [112:32] spectrum. We want to be generative and [112:33] we want to be making the world better [112:35] than we left and we want to be bettering [112:37] ourselves. You know, now we're being I [112:39] think much more true to the reality that [112:42] we experience as opposed to being so [112:45] reductionist that we see one good, one [112:47] evil and where we going to be, you know, [112:49] in in that polarized [112:51] opposites. [112:53] Is it a reasonable goal to want to be [112:55] happy-go-lucky? [112:56] Can I aspire to that and also [112:59] be a productive person? [113:01] Unfortunately, no. [113:03] Right? Happy-go-lucky [113:06] I think to me it it implies that [113:09] there's not an awareness that hey there [113:11] are difficult things in the world and in [113:12] fact there are difficult things in my [113:13] own life, right? I think happy-go-lucky [113:16] implies that we're not aware of how [113:20] difficult life can be or or maybe life [113:22] has at times been. So I don't think that [113:25] you can be happy-go-lucky [113:27] and I think it's good that you can't be [113:29] because who who wants to lose the [113:31] grounding of the things that are real in [113:33] life that might take away the go-lucky [113:35] part, right? I think that you can be [113:37] happy, right? And I think that that's [113:39] better than happiness that includes some [113:41] turning away or some forgetfulness, [113:43] right? So if we take away the go-lucky [113:45] which is I think not desirable or [113:46] possible I do absolutely believe that [113:49] you can be [113:50] happy because what we want and I think [113:52] there are studies that show us this and [113:54] and just thinking about [113:56] how humans have written in literature [113:58] and philosophy across time of what do we [114:00] mean when we say happy? We do want to [114:03] find peace, contentment and the capacity [114:06] for delight. You know, we we just want [114:08] to be able to just be and not have so [114:10] much going on inside or coming at us, [114:12] right? We all say we just want a little [114:13] bit of peace. I you know, I want to just [114:15] sometimes walk around and be able to [114:16] look up at the trees around me and and [114:18] see that the trees are pretty, right? To [114:20] that for me that's peace and and I think [114:22] yes, we we can all find our way [114:25] to peace. We may not be able to have it [114:27] every moment. We don't have to have it [114:28] every moment to be happy. [114:30] So so we need some peace and we need [114:32] some contentment and and contentment [114:34] means that there's awareness of our [114:36] lives. Of the things that have gone well [114:38] and the things that haven't. So I can [114:40] find contentment in my life not every [114:42] moment, but I can find it even holding [114:44] in my mind awareness of tragedies that [114:47] have happened in my life or things that [114:48] I haven't done or or [114:51] performed about the way I would have [114:53] ideally wanted to. I can be aware of [114:55] those things inside of me, but be aware [114:56] of the whole arc of my life and feel [114:58] good about it. You know, there was a [115:01] thought about it embracing our fate, [115:02] embracing what we've created for [115:04] ourselves in early humanists Nietzsche. [115:06] This was sort of written about of the [115:08] fate that we create for ourselves. Can [115:10] we can we embrace it and want to live it [115:12] over and over again even knowing the [115:14] things in it that may be tragic or not [115:16] great. Yes, I think we can find peace. [115:19] We can find contentment and we can find [115:21] the capacity for delight. We all had it [115:23] as children and if we don't have it now [115:26] as adults there's something we can do [115:28] about that. We all need to be able to [115:30] see something that just makes us light [115:31] up. So I think you and and all the rest [115:35] of us it may be different how we're [115:36] going to find it and how much of it and [115:38] how much time we live in happiness, but [115:40] I think the answer for you and me and [115:42] everyone else is we can find happiness [115:44] because we can weave peace, contentment [115:47] and delight into our lives. [115:50] So is it the case that the things that [115:52] bring us delight make us [115:54] for moments feel um [115:57] very joyful. [115:59] What I'm hearing is that [116:00] it has to be on a backdrop of some hard [116:03] things and some strivings. That the goal [116:06] is not [116:07] complete peace and ease. [116:09] I think complete peace and ease isn't [116:11] possible. [116:13] Right? I think for most of us, you know, [116:15] life has brought difficulties for [116:17] everyone in one way or another and life [116:20] does have its its risks and its dangers [116:22] and its its vulnerabilities. So so to [116:25] think that we need to not have that [116:27] anywhere in our minds in order to feel [116:30] good, in order to be happy I think tells [116:32] us that we can't be happy being human. [116:35] And and oftentimes it leads us to say [116:37] well I just I want to not worry about [116:39] anything. I don't want to have anything [116:40] weighing on me and you know, we start [116:42] listing a bunch of things that sound [116:43] like death, right? When we're trying to [116:45] talk about how we're going to be happy, [116:47] right? And like that's that's not what [116:48] we're going for, right? I do want to [116:51] have times of peace when like I'm not [116:52] thinking about bad things that have [116:53] happened. I'm just at peace and I'm [116:55] looking at the tree or the bird sitting [116:56] up in the tree or, you know, the log [116:58] floating down the river which which made [117:00] me brought me a lot of peace not that [117:02] long ago. So we can have these moments. [117:05] It has to also be an awareness of our [117:07] lives and we have to at times be able to [117:09] to have in our minds the things that are [117:11] not the way we want them to be and the [117:13] things that are tragic and still feel [117:15] good about our lives. I think that's how [117:16] we find real happiness and we're not [117:19] just looking for escapes cuz often the [117:21] happy-go-lucky part is where we're [117:22] looking for an escape and it's kind of [117:24] easy to to to feel that way sometimes if [117:26] if a person chooses an escape and it [117:28] could be even in a substance where okay, [117:30] it felt good for a couple of hours, but [117:32] at what cost, right? We're not looking [117:34] for escape. What we're looking for is is [117:37] the ability to apprehend our own lives, [117:39] feel enough in control of our own lives [117:41] that I don't have to be really afraid of [117:43] the future. I know that there may be [117:45] scary things in them, but I'm going to [117:46] meet them as best I can. I don't have to [117:47] be afraid of the future and I feel good [117:50] about my life. I feel enough in control [117:54] and I have enough understanding that I [117:56] can say okay, I'm I'm I'm I'm good with [117:58] me at the moment and you know, now that [118:00] moment has become another moment and I'm [118:02] moving forward and I'm doing the best I [118:04] can because these this sequence of [118:06] moments are the only the only time I'm [118:07] alive and I want to be really present [118:10] for it. [118:12] There used to be a lot of articles [118:13] written and you could still find the [118:15] stuff online about, you know, uh [118:18] regrets that people had close to the end [118:20] of their life and um [118:22] you know, no one [clears throat] ever [118:23] said they wish they spent more time at [118:24] the office. I don't know. I know some [118:25] people that loved their work and loved [118:28] their work. [118:29] Did they love it to the, you know, [118:32] uh to the detriment of their family? In [118:34] some cases yes and a lot of cases no. [118:36] And so I I don't like those lists. I [118:39] think those lists are serve as prompts [118:41] for asking questions. Am I over invested [118:43] in one area versus another, but I'm [118:46] guessing you've spent some time with [118:47] people who [118:49] are [118:50] close to the end of their life or at the [118:52] end of their life. [118:52] >> Yes. Have you ever encountered someone [118:55] who like really nailed it? You didn't [118:57] think they were just telling you a story [118:59] about how they really they felt really [119:01] good about how they had spent their [119:04] mental life and their energies. Yes. We [119:06] don't hear about those people very [119:08] often. Yes. But we just don't. We hear [119:10] that oh, you know, no one lies on their [119:12] deathbed thinking they you know, [119:14] we hear all the stuff you're not [119:15] supposed to do. Are there any insights [119:17] or just [119:19] and if you can't remember just just [119:21] feelings that arrived for you when [119:23] talking to these people that you [119:25] genuinely believe oh, like if they [119:27] didn't hit the bull's-eye, they were [119:28] darn close. Yes. Yeah, what does it what [119:31] did that look like or feel like and what [119:32] did they say? [119:33] It makes me think actually of of a real [119:36] example in my own life where a family [119:39] member much older than me. He would [119:40] probably be 120. So if he were were [119:44] still alive. So he was very very old at [119:46] the time who had really made something [119:48] of himself. He didn't have much in the [119:50] way of education and and he'd been a [119:52] successful member of the community. He'd [119:54] given back to the community. He had no [119:56] education. He started a bank and you [119:58] know, the bank became international and [120:00] he and he was so good and so helpful to [120:02] the place he had come from and he'd had [120:05] real tragedies in his life. He'd lost a [120:06] child and when he learned that I was [120:09] going to medical school a long long time [120:11] ago, he asked to see me and he was in [120:14] his actually would have been in his [120:16] early 90s at the time and he told me [120:19] that he was happy with his life and that [120:21] he realized that he could die at any [120:23] moment and he understood and he accepted [120:25] that that he tried to do the best that [120:27] he could and he'd made something of [120:29] himself and that there were was sadness [120:31] in his life and and and things he [120:33] certainly wished would have been [120:34] different but that he was happy with his [120:36] life and he was okay with dying and and [120:39] he wanted me to know that he thought [120:40] that was a good way to feel right and [120:43] and that it was tempting to to want to [120:46] to be so much and put so much pressure [120:48] on yourself that you that you could [120:49] achieve a lot and not be able to feel [120:51] good about it and it's not it's not [120:53] something I forgot. I mean, I do think [120:55] of that with with fair frequency and and [120:57] it made me think of that here. I thought [120:59] that's [121:00] that's a person who's lived [121:02] life and and now I wasn't thinking it at [121:04] the time but he was clearly describing [121:06] being able to have peace and have [121:08] contentment to to feel good about his [121:10] life even knowing the things that were [121:12] not great and then the capacity for [121:14] delight. There were still things he was [121:15] very very excited about and his face [121:17] would still light up and and I think [121:18] that was probably earlier role modeling [121:21] for me of oh, like that that's I'd like [121:24] to feel that way. You know, I'd like to [121:26] be in my 90s and be able to say that and [121:29] it's really stuck with me. [121:31] That's awesome. [121:33] I [121:34] I think we need to think a lot more [121:36] about [121:37] what's going right, what went right. [121:39] >> Mhm. Yes. [121:40] >> We were talking about that today. Yes. [121:41] What went right? Yes. What's going right [121:44] in my life? What I've made go right in [121:46] my life, right? What hasn't gone right [121:48] and I showed up anyway, right? That's [121:50] part of what's going right. [121:52] Yeah, we so easily default to the [121:53] losses. [121:55] Mhm. Or which can also be beautiful in [121:57] some sense. Sometimes [121:59] sometimes but we we so easily go to [122:02] what's wrong, what's wrong, what's [122:03] wrong. But I'm also hearing that [122:05] happy-go-lucky and just thinking about [122:07] what's going right, that's not the [122:08] answer either. It's just not it. There [122:10] has to be that contrast. This is what [122:12] I'm hearing you saying today. Yes. Yes. [122:15] We have to be living an examined life in [122:17] order to live intentionally. So so yes, [122:20] we do have to look at ourselves but the [122:22] good news is that's okay. You know, most [122:24] of us don't want to be dragged kicking [122:25] and screaming to looking at ourselves [122:27] but that's just because we're afraid and [122:29] if we know I'm not going to find [122:30] anything there that's going to really [122:31] shock me or probably not going to find [122:33] anything I'm not already well aware of [122:35] even if I've you know, even if I'm [122:37] trying to hide it from myself and then [122:39] there's a process I can go through go go [122:40] through. If I look at myself, I can use [122:42] the knowledge to make things better. You [122:44] know, then that's the simple goodness of [122:46] it's okay to look at ourselves. We have [122:48] to but we also get to. Right and and [122:51] that's how we're going to live good [122:53] lives. That's how we live the best life [122:54] we can get and and maybe we get to that [122:57] point where we can look back and feel [122:58] good about the choices that we've made [123:00] and maybe feel okay about choices we've [123:02] made even if they haven't led to places [123:05] where we've wanted them to be that we [123:06] can still embrace ourselves and the [123:08] lives we've led. [123:10] If you don't mind, I just want to ask a [123:11] couple of questions that are a little [123:13] bit different than the ones we've been [123:14] exploring. Was writing the book [123:17] informative for you about the mind, [123:18] about people in a way that all the [123:20] clinical work and and certainly the [123:22] podcasts you've done was was it [123:24] different? Did it did it teach you [123:26] anything and if you if so, are you [123:28] willing to share one or two of those [123:30] things? [123:30] >> Sure. Sure. [123:31] I think writing about what we know helps [123:35] us know it better, right? Because [123:36] because part of knowing something is [123:38] also being aware that we don't know [123:40] everything about it. So then when we [123:42] organize our thoughts and it's like I'm [123:43] doing the best I can to put this down so [123:46] other people can understand it. We just [123:47] have to learn from that process. So so [123:51] yeah, I do I do feel that I learned as [123:52] part of writing it and incorporating [123:54] clinical examples and just incorporating [123:56] events from life. It helped me I think [123:59] have a fuller view of I do do you think [124:03] that this says a lot about [124:06] how we're being humans in the world and [124:09] and you know, how our mind is structured [124:10] that there is this parallel to the body [124:12] and you know, and we can bring it to the [124:14] fore and I felt very hopeful and [124:16] optimistic that [124:17] that it kind of holds together and you [124:19] know, and and it leads somewhere. So [124:22] yeah, I think I got I got a lot out of [124:23] organizing my thoughts better in writing [124:25] the book. [124:26] Last question which is completely [124:30] outside the realm of what we've been [124:31] talking about. Has Lex Fridman texted [124:33] you back cuz he hasn't texted me back in [124:34] a while. I have not heard from Lex [124:38] Fridman. Yeah. [124:38] >> Despite multiple efforts, there has been [124:41] no response. Yeah, there there are [124:42] rumors that he's in Dagestan. There are [124:45] rumors that he's that he's in Austin and [124:47] he [124:48] and Lex we we love you and you don't [124:53] have to text us back but um just maybe [124:55] just throw up a sign that you're okay. [124:59] Or we're going to send a search party to [125:00] Dagestan. Right. And if you're not [125:02] there, then we're really in trouble. Dr. [125:05] Paul Conti, [125:06] this was awesome. Um [125:08] I I have to say and I'm not going to [125:11] repeat everything, I promise but I have [125:13] to say what I love so much about talking [125:14] with you is that [125:17] like exploring these caverns of things [125:19] and then these gems just pop out like [125:22] this idea that we can be on our own side [125:25] by seeing what we [125:28] don't want to be controlled by. Mhm. I [125:30] think I know that's really going to [125:32] resonate with people because behavioral [125:34] change is like the hardest thing. Mhm. [125:36] And behavioral change when people [125:38] realize they're not changing is like [125:40] it's like a double whammy. [125:41] So that alone is is enormous and [125:44] >> Right. and the focus on what's right, [125:46] I'm not trying to just repeatedly [125:48] you know, state the title of the book. I [125:49] mean, what's going right is it's just so [125:51] vital. I think especially in this time [125:53] when you [125:54] turn on the news and it's just like all [125:56] these things that are challenging to the [125:58] world which certainly many of them need [126:00] attention but focusing on what's going [126:02] right, what has gone right [126:05] is just it's so it's so essential right [126:07] now. [126:08] And it's really what I've learned from [126:10] you today is that it's really the [126:12] lifeblood of what it is to be [126:14] a [126:15] joyous human being with the caveat that [126:18] we also have to address the challenges [126:21] and if they're there, the traumas and [126:23] and that there's really no other way. [126:24] That that's what I'm taking from this. [126:26] Yes and that we can do that and and [126:28] instead of thinking maybe that we can do [126:30] that or we have to do that. We get to do [126:32] that. That there should be an excitement [126:34] that we bring, an enthusiasm and a [126:36] hopefulness that we bring to that [126:37] process. [126:39] Well, thank you for being here today. [126:41] Thank you for writing the book. [126:43] It's going to serve so many people and [126:45] yeah, thank you for taking your training [126:47] and your your clinical experience and [126:49] putting it out into the world. You know, [126:50] you don't have any obligation to do that [126:52] and most everything that you know and [126:54] that transpires in those sessions [126:57] everything would not [127:00] serve the larger world to the extent [127:02] that it does [127:04] were you not willing to you know, get [127:05] out here and there and um share with [127:07] people. So thank you. You're clearly [127:11] one of the leading public educators on [127:13] the mind and the self and and navigating [127:16] this this life landscape. So thank you [127:18] so much for coming here today and come [127:20] back again, please. You're very welcome. [127:22] Thank you for giving me the opportunity [127:23] to do so. It's my pleasure. [127:25] Thank you for joining me for today's [127:26] discussion with Dr. Paul Conti. To learn [127:29] more about his work and to find links to [127:30] his new book, What's Going Right, please [127:32] see the links in the show note captions. 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