Epley Proves Exposure Therapy Alters Cognitive Beliefs to Ease Anxiety

Epley证实暴露疗法可改变认知信念以缓解焦虑 社交焦虑源于对陌生人预期的偏差，而通过深思熟虑的现实微互动可以纠正这种偏差，并表明人们其实比预想的更加友善。 本期节目深入剖析了社交联结背后的心理机制，强调人类对被拒绝的恐惧和过度的社交悲观情绪屡屡被实证数据所推翻。Epley博士分享了来自暴露疗法、进化合作以及日常微互动与随口赞美所带来的深切幸福感的见解。结合来自3万多名研究参与者的数据以及诸如Jia Jiang的“100天被拒”等引人注目的现实案例，对话表明人们在系统层面上其实比我们想象的更友善、更乐于建立联结。最终，讨论提供了切实可行的工具，例如践行“打招呼漫步”（hello walks）和转变父母的言传身教模式，以帮助个体克服行为回避心理，培育真实的人际亲近感。 克服社交焦虑需要在真实的社交动态中进行现实暴露，而非人工模拟，因为对被拒绝的错误预设是阻碍建立联结的主要壁垒。 (0:00) 人类通过自我中心主义（以自己的心智为基准）、刻板印象（类别信息）和行为主义（外在身体行为）来解读他人的独立心智，尽管这些工具经常会引发认知偏差和对应偏差。 (2:50) 文化智力假说得到了数据的支持：数据显示，尽管两岁的人类幼童与黑猩猩和红毛猩猩在空间推理能力上不相上下，但在追踪视线方向等社交智商测试中却完全超越了后者。 (9:03) 人类的声音通过副语言线索成为窥探心智的真实窗口，而文字交流缺乏声音细微差异，容易触发自我中心陷阱，并加剧将政治对手非人化的倾向。 (17:18) 数据表明，完全独处一天对幸福感的损害程度，是年收入减少6万美元的七倍，这表明彻底的孤立会带来巨大的心理和认知代价。 (31:27)

Behavioral scientist Dr. Nick Epley argues that social anxiety is sustained by systematically mistaken beliefs about other people rather than an intrinsic inability to connect. Through real-world behavioral experiments, he demonstrates that humans consistently underestimate how positively, generously, and warmly others will respond to social outreach. Exposure Therapy and the Misplaced Fear of Rejection (0:00) Epley explains that clinical psychology previously faltered by having socially anxious patients practice in simulated or pretend scenarios. Citing clinical psychologist Stefan Hofmann, Epley notes that effective exposure therapy requires entering the physical world and facing actual opportunities for rejection. The goal is not to dull subjective discomfort, but to empirically disprove the catastrophic assumptions that generate social dread. This dynamic is underscored by the 'underestimation of compliance effect,' documented by researchers Frank Flynn and Vanessa Bohns, which shows that people routinely overestimate the difficulty of receiving help and underestimate how good helpers feel when assisting. In an analysis of Jia Jiang’s 100-day rejection project—which included requests like asking for Olympic-themed donuts at Krispy Kreme or addressing an airplane over the intercom—Jiang secured 51 acceptances out of 106 total requests. Across the entire experiment, researchers identified only about seven instances of even mild negativity, revealing that social fear is predominantly detached from actual human behavior. The Evolutionary Toll of Isolation Versus Real Contact (31:27) Human biology treats chronic isolation as a critical threat. Citing the late psychologist John Cacioppo, Epley notes that prolonged loneliness triggers cortisol spikes, impairs cardiovascular and immune function, and shortens lifespans because our neural architecture evolved around cooperative group survival. A 2008 Max Planck Institute study supporting the cultural intelligence hypothesis demonstrated that while two-year-old human toddlers and adult apes perform equally well on physical spatial tasks, humans vastly outperform primates in social reasoning, indicating that neural expansion was selected specifically for mutual understanding. Empirical well-being data further validates the cost of solitude. Danny Kahneman and Angus Deaton's analysis of Gallup survey data revealed that spending an entire day alone produces a drop in emotional well-being approximately seven times larger than the gap between the high and low ends of their income scale (a $60,000 disparity). Furthermore, while common intuition assumes introverts recharge exclusively in isolation, Epley points out that personality research demonstrates extraversion correlates at 0.5 with day-to-day positive affect, and brief connection consistently lifts positive mood across personality types. Vocal Dynamics Versus the Limitations of Dead Text (17:18) Epley emphasizes that the human voice provides an essential, dynamic window into an active mind, transmitting cognitive nuance through pacing, pitch, and spontaneous deliberation. Written text, by contrast, functions as 'dead text' stripped of paralinguistic cues. Because writers suffer from egocentric bias—assuming recipients will intuitively infer their intended humor or sarcasm—text messages and emails frequently generate misunderstanding and offense. The communicative superiority of voice is evident in recruitment research. When MBA candidates pitched Fortune 500 recruiters using text, audio, or video, evaluators rated candidates who were heard as significantly more intelligent, thoughtful, and hireable than those whose pitches were merely read. Paradoxically, the candidates themselves predicted their medium would not matter, and a control group overwhelmingly preferred writing because they believed editing would make them appear smarter. Epley notes that modern technology exacerbates this perceptual gap by creating a thicker digital shell that isolates individuals and drives disruptive online behavior in a misguided search for social responsiveness. Everyday Altruism and the Leaky Tire of Well-Being (64:54) Classical economic theory presumes that individuals act as purely self-interested agents, yet experimental economics repeatedly disproves this premise. In split-dollar games where participants have complete discretion over a $10 sum, subjects routinely give 30% to 50% to total strangers rather than keeping the entire amount. Epley argues that human neural circuitry is inherently wired for cooperation and non-kin altruism, though cultural norms and social expectations dictate how openly these behaviors manifest. Epley conceptualizes day-to-day happiness as a 'leaky tire' requiring steady maintenance, because humans rapidly adapt to major milestones. Rather than banking on rare life events, durable well-being is constructed by accumulating micro-interactions, such as offering passing compliments or engaging in brief, candid conversations with strangers. Applying this perspective to his own life, Epley describes using empirical research to overcome initial hesitation when adopting his daughter Lindsey, who has Down syndrome; her open, uninhibited greetings regularly serve as an immediate catalyst for warmth and connection in public environments. Epley concludes that the primary barrier to social connection is not an objective scarcity of goodwill, but an internal cognitive bias that causes people to hold back unnecessarily. While developing social competence requires practical sensitivity to context and boundaries—such as learning how to manage overly intrusive individuals—the evidence suggests that actively initiating brief, genuine interactions consistently yields higher subjective well-being than retreating into protective isolation.

芝加哥大学行为科学家Nick Epley博士指出，社交焦虑源于人们系统性地高估了遭到拒绝的风险，并低估了他人的善意与配合度；克服这种恐惧的核心在于走向现实世界进行真实接触，而非依赖模拟训练。 真实暴露打破社交预判偏差 (0:00) Epley指出，心理学界过去长期让患者在模拟场景或对着假想听众练习演讲，这种方法因脱离现实而收效甚微。要真正缓解社交焦虑，必须直接置身于真实的社会交往中。焦虑的根源往往不是情绪本身过于迟钝或敏锐，而是人们对他人反应持有错误的悲观假设。其实验室在涉及超过3万人、120多项实验的数据中证实，人类普遍存在过度克制、回避社交连接的系统性偏差。 实践层面的生动例证包括Jia Jiang的“被拒100天”实验。其实验数据经Epley实验室分析发现，在106次向陌生人提出出格要求的尝试中，Jiang获得了51次同意和48次拒绝，且仅有约7次互动带有极其轻微的负面情绪。这印证了Stanford大学Frank Flynn与Cornell大学Vanessa Bohns提出的“顺从度低估效应”（underestimation of compliance effect）：人们总是高估获得帮助所需询问的人数，而实际上助人者通常比求助者预想的感到更快乐。Jiang正是借由实地经历重塑了对人性的预期，从而彻底脱敏。 声音、目光与心智感知的生物学基础 (9:03) 人类演化出了高度复杂的神经结构来支撑社交协作。Huberman与Epley讨论指出，眼睛作为暴露于颅骨外的脑组织，与人类声音共同构成了推断他人意图的核心窗口。2008年马克斯·普朗克研究所关于“文化智力假说”的研究显示，两岁人类幼儿在物理智力测试中与成年黑猩猩和红毛猩猩表现相当，但在涉及推断他人心理的社交智力测试中展现出独特优势。 在沟通媒介上，声音展现出文字所欠缺的认知动态。Epley在一项针对MBA学生向财富500强招聘官进行电梯游说的实验中发现，招聘官对被“听到”的求职者在智力、深思熟虑程度及可录用性上的评价，显著高于仅被“阅读”文字材料的求职者。尽管求职者自身误认为文字能通过修改带来更大优势，但事实上，缺乏音调、语速和即时迟疑的“冷冰冰的文字”无法传递出鲜活的人类心智，而声音能够真实反映思维运作过程。 隔离的生物学代价与微互动的幸福回报 (31:27) 人类神经系统对孤立具有先天的警报机制。已故心理学家John Cacioppo指出，长期孤独会使神经系统发出警报，诱发皮质醇激增，进而损害心血管功能与免疫系统。诺贝尔经济学奖得主Danny Kahneman与Angus Deaton对盖洛普日常幸福感数据的分析表明，完全独处一天对幸福感的负面冲击，大约是高低收入阶层（差距达6万美元）之间幸福感差异的7倍。虽然短信等低阶数字互动优于绝对隔离，但面对面接触和电话交流在构建全新人际纽带时依然具备无法替代的效率。 Epley将幸福感比作“漏气的轮胎”，因人类容易适应积极事件，持续的福祉依赖于在日常生活中串联起微小的明亮时刻。人格心理学数据显示，外向性与日常积极情绪存在高达0.5的显著相关性，与生活满意度的相关性亦达0.3。即使是短暂的日常互动——例如赞美陌生人的帽子或眼镜、在Uber车程中开启真诚对话——都能迅速提升双方的积极感受，甚至改善个体对整个人类群体的信念。 家庭实践与基于数据的行动勇气 (108:26) Epley将行为科学结论深入融入个人生活。在经历胎儿Sophie因唐氏综合征于孕期六个月不幸胎死腹中的剧痛后，他和妻子面对是否领养一名患有唐氏综合征儿童的抉择。面对未知的恐惧与疑虑，Epley调动自身长期研究得出的“数据驱动的勇气”，认识到人类往往因过度担忧他人反应而选择退缩。最终，他们领养了来自中国、患有唐氏综合征的女儿Lindsey。 实践证明，完全没有社交焦虑的Lindsey凭借毫无防备的问候成为了家庭与社区的“凝聚磁铁”。此外，Epley反思了自身作为学术世家对长子施加的过度期望，最终接纳并支持儿子放弃传统大学转向职业技校。他强调，成年人应当注意自身的行为习惯，向下一代展示包容、接纳与开放互动的社交范式，在面对他人与未知的空间中主动迈出第一步。 Epley的研究表明，克服社交焦虑与提升主观幸福感的关键，在于纠正对外界反应的悲观认知偏差。通过在现实生活中主动开启微小的正向接触，个体不仅能验证人际间的普遍善意，还能借助人脑固有的社交适应机制重塑对世界的信任。

[0:56] Andrew Huberman: engaging in small talk for small talk's sake [20:22] Nick Epley: dramatically reduced [22:20] Nick Epley: highly stylized experimental result [22:20] Nick Epley: dead text [27:01] Andrew Huberman: the kind of guy you'd want to have a beer with [27:01] Nick Epley: my side bias [37:19] Christopher McCandless: connection with people is the thing [37:19] Nick Epley: looking glass self [73:33] Nick Epley: that's the thing we're all dying for [77:34] Nick Epley: the data just don't support that. [84:26] Nick Epley: as long as you have the resources and the time, get a dog. [84:26] Andrew Huberman: other people are nicer than I think. [89:20] Jia Jiang: I lost my fear of rejection. But it was because I changed how I think about other people. Other people are way kinder than I expect. [141:50] Dr. Nick Epley: pay attention to your habits [146:12] Andrew Huberman: there's goodness and untapped beauty to be had in the spaces that we don't reflexively step into

[0:00] Social anxiety is something we really [0:01] can help people with. Essentially, the [0:04] strategy is very simple. If you are [0:06] afraid of talking with a stranger or [0:08] having a deep conversation, the way to [0:10] get over that is not to simulate it or [0:12] to imagine. It's not like you get up and [0:14] you you give a pretend speech. That's [0:16] what psychologists were doing for years. [0:17] It doesn't work because it's still [0:19] pretending. It has to be real. You send [0:21] people out in the world and to do the [0:23] thing for real. You're worried about [0:24] getting rejected. Go out and start [0:26] asking people for help and you'll learn [0:28] that your fear is misplaced get accepted [0:31] more often than you might guess. [0:32] Exposing people to that thing that they [0:34] are anxious of, when the belief is [0:37] misplaced, and with social anxiety it is [0:40] usually wildly misplaced. That's what we [0:41] find over and over again is a mistaken [0:44] barrier to connecting with other people. [0:45] That's how you you ease that social [0:47] anxiety and get rid of it. Not because [0:48] you do [0:49] you dull your anxiety so much. It's [0:52] because you change your beliefs [0:54] about what other people are like. [0:56] Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, [0:58] where we discuss science and [1:00] science-based [music] tools for everyday [1:01] life. [1:05] I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor [1:07] of neurobiology and ophthalmology at [1:10] Stanford School of Medicine. My guest [1:11] today is Dr. Nick Epley. Dr. Nick Epley [1:14] is a behavioral scientist at the [1:15] University of Chicago and an expert [1:18] researcher on the science of social [1:19] connection. What's different about [1:21] today's conversation in the context of [1:22] social connection is that it doesn't [1:24] just center on improving relationships [1:26] with friends or family or co-workers. We [1:28] do talk about that, but we also talk [1:30] about the smaller everyday conversations [1:33] that we have with people that we don't [1:34] know so well and the positive impact [1:36] that that can have on mental and [1:38] physical health. Now, I want to be [1:39] clear, we're not talking about engaging [1:41] in small talk for small talk's sake. [1:43] We're talking about taking opportunities [1:45] to connect with people once or several [1:46] times per day and the tremendous [1:48] benefits that can have for people's [1:50] mental and physical health, including [1:51] yours. We also talk a lot about the [1:53] assumptions that we tend to make about [1:55] other people, both in real life and [1:57] online, and how those actually match up [1:59] with reality. We also talk about Nick [2:01] Epley himself because his life strongly [2:03] has informed his research. We talk about [2:05] his biological and his adopted children, [2:07] raising a child with additional needs, [2:09] and the incredible joy and growth those [2:11] choices have brought him and his family [2:13] by virtue of the sorts of social [2:14] connections that they've brought. I must [2:16] say today's conversation went a lot of [2:18] places that I did not anticipate, and it [2:20] certainly inspired me to look [2:21] differently at everyday interactions as [2:23] far from trivial, and in fact key to the [2:26] fabric of social connection and our [2:28] mental and physical health. Before we [2:30] begin, I'd like to emphasize that this [2:31] podcast is separate from my teaching and [2:33] research roles at Stanford. It is, [2:35] however, part of my desire and effort to [2:37] bring zero cost to consumer information [2:38] about science and science-related tools [2:41] to the general public. In keeping with [2:42] that theme, today's episode does include [2:44] sponsors. And now for my discussion with [2:47] Dr. Nick Epley. Dr. Nick Epley, welcome. [2:50] Thank you so much for having me. We make [2:52] a lot of assumptions about other people, [2:55] and in my case, cuz I have a new puppy, [2:57] about animals. [2:58] You know, we're always thinking that we [2:59] know what other beings are thinking. [3:02] Yeah. But as you've pointed out, and as [3:04] a colleague of mine in neurosciences, [3:06] Dr. Karl Deisseroth, has pointed out, [3:09] most of the time we don't even know what [3:10] we're thinking. Like there's stuff going [3:12] on in there, but like we're we're not [3:13] that good at thinking, "Oh, that last [3:15] thought was a complete sentence that [3:16] means blank." That's That's not how the [3:18] human mind works. [3:19] >> Right. So, [3:21] usually when we hear the word [3:22] anthropomorphism, we're talking about [3:24] humans making assumptions about other [3:27] animals. [3:27] >> Mhm. But humans are animals. We just [3:30] happen to be the curators of the planet. [3:32] So, why and how do we anthropomorphize [3:36] about other people, and how does it hurt [3:38] us, and how does it help us? [3:40] >> Yeah. So, I think the way to think about [3:42] anthropomorphism is that what we are [3:44] doing is we're trying to understand [3:45] what's going on within another agent, [3:48] essentially. And so, anything that acts [3:50] independently, right? You got a ball [3:52] rolling across the table. If something [3:53] else bumps into it and it moves in [3:55] perfect, you know, the perfect [3:57] deflection off of it, you don't need [3:59] anything to explain why that ball moved [4:01] as it did. But if this ball is coming [4:02] across the table, another one hits it [4:04] and it just keeps going or it goes some [4:05] other direction, well, then it seems [4:07] like there's something going inside that [4:08] thing that might be driving it, right? [4:11] And that in that thing that's inside [4:13] that ball might be a mind, right? Might [4:15] be a set of thoughts or beliefs or [4:16] attitudes, some kind of psychology [4:18] that's pushing it. At least that's the [4:19] way we interpret what an independent [4:22] agent might be doing. We do this when we [4:23] think about other people, right? You're [4:25] nodding your head now. I think you're [4:26] thinking about something, right? You [4:28] move this way or that, you wanted to do [4:29] this thing or that thing. We do that [4:31] same kind of mind reading, right? With [4:34] non-human agents, animals, gods [4:37] sometimes, the planet, even ourselves, [4:39] right? We reflect on ourselves. We have [4:41] experience at least with having certain [4:44] mental states come to mind and we use [4:46] that experience as a guide to what's [4:48] going on in other people, too. That kind [4:50] of anthropomorphism, that kind of mind [4:52] reading, right? Where we infer others' [4:54] thoughts or beliefs or attitudes, that's [4:55] helpful to us for at least two reasons. [4:57] One is it gives me some sense of why [4:59] you're doing what you're doing now. It [5:00] allows me to understand what you're [5:02] doing right now. Are you trying to be [5:03] kind? Are you trying to be uh [5:05] aggressive? Are you trying to be [5:07] friendly? But it also is pretty good at [5:09] allowing me to predict what you're [5:11] likely to do next. So if I think you [5:13] feel hungry, well, you're going to go [5:14] try to eat something. If I think you [5:16] don't like me very well, you're going to [5:18] behave a particular way towards me. So [5:20] this kind of mental state inference, [5:22] this kind of mind reading, serves us [5:24] pretty well for getting around in a [5:26] social world. [5:29] Don't always get it right, but in [5:31] general, it's better than not doing it [5:32] at all. [5:33] So as we make assumptions about others [5:36] and their intentions and their [5:38] past [5:39] >> Mhm. choices in some cases, right? Like [5:41] if somebody hits somebody else, we we [5:42] make an assumption about the certain [5:44] things might have led up to that. [5:45] >> Yes, right. Are we mainly paying [5:46] attention to behavior? Mhm. And or are [5:49] we paying attention to [5:52] what they seem to be paying attention [5:55] to? So called theory of mind. [5:56] >> Yeah. So, it depends a lot on what kind [5:58] of environment we're in. We think about [5:59] the minds of others in lots and lots of [6:02] different context. My wife right now is [6:04] back home in Illinois. I can think about [6:06] what she might want for dinner, right? [6:07] Or what she's feeling at any given time. [6:09] We can think about people when they're [6:10] not present. We can think about [6:11] strangers, people we know nothing about. [6:13] I write a book. I'm trying to think [6:14] about how will people understand this [6:17] book, right? These are all cases where [6:19] there's not somebody in front of us at [6:21] all, right? And when we're doing that, [6:23] particularly with strangers, people we [6:24] know nothing about, things we know [6:25] nothing about, then the one thing we [6:28] have at our disposal is ourselves. We [6:30] can use our own minds, right? So, if I [6:32] walk into a classroom and I think it's [6:34] kind of cold in here, well, I can assume [6:36] that other people will think it's cold, [6:37] too. I'm using myself as a guide. [6:40] Once I know a little more maybe about [6:42] you, right? I learn that you are, you [6:44] know, you're a PhD from Stanford. I [6:46] learn that um [6:48] you know, somebody is a is an athlete or [6:50] whatever. I learn something about you. [6:51] You're you're a doctor or you're a [6:53] lawyer. Then I can use that information, [6:56] my beliefs about groups of people, as a [6:58] guide. That's stereotyping. And [7:00] stereotypes contain a fair bit of [7:03] accuracy to them. If I know that you're [7:05] a Democrat or a Republican, I can make [7:07] some reasonable inferences about other [7:08] thoughts you might have, other beliefs [7:10] you might have. Not perfect, but better [7:12] than chance guessing. [7:14] And then once I see you, like what we're [7:16] doing right now, if I can see you, then [7:18] I'm watching your behavior. And then [7:19] behavior dominates. Behavior though is [7:21] tricky. I'm watching you, right? You [7:22] could have two people kissing. They [7:24] seem, you know, delightfully in love, [7:27] right? They seem just so nice together. [7:29] And you can you you can make one set of [7:31] inferences when you see that that [7:33] happening based on that. You can infer [7:35] what's going on behind that based on [7:37] what you're seeing. And when we can see [7:39] the behavior in front of us, that's then [7:41] what we're paying most attention to. But [7:43] each of these different mechanisms, [7:44] egocentrism, [7:46] stereotyping, [7:47] and behaviorism, we might think of [7:49] working backwards from your behavior, [7:51] they all gain give us some accuracy, but [7:54] they also create some error. [7:56] Egocentrism creates egocentric biases. I [7:58] assume that you think more like I do [8:01] than you actually do. [8:03] Stereotyping tends to create uh a [8:06] different set of mistakes. I tend to [8:07] think that groups are more distinct and [8:09] different from each other than they [8:11] actually are because stereotypes are [8:13] about the defining features of groups, [8:15] which tends to exaggerate the [8:17] differences between groups. And when it [8:18] comes to behavior, I tend to assume a [8:21] simpler, more simplistic [8:25] uh mind behind that behavior than [8:27] exactly actually exists. Psychologists [8:29] refer to this as the correspondence [8:30] bias. I tend to infer an intention or [8:34] set of beliefs or attitudes that [8:35] corresponds with your behavior as I see [8:37] it. So, if I see you hit somebody, I [8:39] might assume you are an aggressive [8:41] person. That's how I interpret right [8:42] away. Had I known it was in [8:44] self-defense, then I would interpret it [8:46] very differently, right? But we tend to [8:48] leap to mental states or intentions from [8:51] behavior. Sometimes that can get us into [8:53] trouble when the relationship between [8:55] intentions or thoughts and behavior is a [8:58] little complicated. So, each of those [8:59] gets us some accuracy, [9:00] but each of them also creates some [9:02] error. [9:03] If you are willing, I'd like to return [9:05] to the example you gave at the beginning [9:07] of of a ball rolling on a table and [9:09] another ball striking it or not. You [9:12] know, in the second example you gave, [9:14] the the ball simply takes off on a [9:15] different trajectory and you said that [9:16] we're going to make some assumption that [9:17] the ball has something like a mind, [9:20] something controlling its decisions. [9:22] What I'm about to say reflects a a a [9:24] strong bias, which is that I've long [9:25] been interested in the visual system of [9:29] non-human and human primates because we [9:31] are so visual. And the eyes are two [9:33] pieces of the brain. Are they the only [9:35] pieces of the brain in healthy [9:37] individuals that are outside the cranial [9:39] vault and they give us a lot of [9:41] information and I think people know that [9:44] but I don't think they appreciate just [9:47] how much information they give us [9:50] not just pupil size and whether or not [9:52] our gaze is is locked with theirs all [9:55] that's true too but if I could just [9:58] alter your experiment for a second let's [9:59] say that first ball had eyes. Oh yeah. [10:02] And it's rolling forward but then the [10:03] eyes shift to the left and then the ball [10:06] goes to the left now I have additional [10:07] information I have a window literally [10:09] into the brain where I can say what's [10:11] over there that might have motivated [10:13] that decision and I think with humans we [10:15] do this right like if somebody's going [10:18] down the street just swinging their arms [10:19] wildly and hitting people we think this [10:21] person's out of control they're crazy [10:23] whereas if they see somebody then they [10:25] orient their their gaze toward them now [10:28] we we start making all sorts of [10:29] assumptions about the operations of that [10:31] mind. [10:32] >> Yes. And in my worldview no pun intended [10:35] the eyes are the best source of [10:38] information about intent about goals [10:41] etc. So limiting the conversation to [10:44] conditions where we can see the other [10:45] person and what they see [10:48] are there any examples of our judgments [10:51] about other people's thoughts and [10:53] behavior and etc. [10:55] improving by virtue of [10:57] >> Oh for sure yeah yeah I mean so So the [10:58] eyes are do provide valid information [11:01] >> the voice also contains an awful lot so [11:03] that's the other thing we spend a lot of [11:05] time studying but [11:06] we we are the most socially [11:08] sophisticated primate species on the [11:10] planet we have a brain uniquely equipped [11:12] for connecting with the minds of others [11:14] and that means that we are [11:15] hypersensitive to certain things the [11:18] eyes are one of them there's this great [11:20] paper in 2008 on the cultural [11:22] intelligence hypothesis it's a science [11:24] paper where they compared you know they [11:27] tried tried to assess what is it that [11:28] makes humans sort of unique on this [11:31] planet. [11:32] Um [11:33] and they compared little over 100 [11:35] 2-year-old toddlers, right? Imagine [11:37] running this experiment if you would. A [11:39] little over 100 2-year-old toddlers. [11:41] This was done at the Max Planck [11:42] Institute in Germany, one of the Max [11:44] Plancks. Uh over 100 chimpanzees and [11:46] then just for good measure, another 36 [11:49] orangutans who apparently had nothing [11:50] better to do. Honestly, aren't they [11:52] crazy? Yeah, it's crazy. [11:53] >> exhausting, but [11:54] >> Exactly. Man, I can't Yeah, I I would [11:56] like to know the background of of [11:58] details of this. How it was actually [12:00] done and how long it took. But what they [12:02] did essentially is ran each of these [12:05] groups through two different kinds of IQ [12:07] tests, you might think of them as. One [12:10] was an IQ test involving physical [12:12] objects, right? So, things like, [12:14] [snorts] you know, tracking where a [12:16] reward was placed under a shell game or [12:18] using a tool to to solve some kind of [12:21] problem. Ja- Jane Goodall once, you [12:22] know, [12:23] psychologists once believed, biologists [12:25] once believed that tool use was made [12:27] humans unique until Jane Goodall watched [12:29] the chimpanzees using twigs to get [12:31] termites out of a termite mound, right? [12:33] On the physical IQ test problems, [12:36] the human toddlers, the adult chimps, [12:38] and the orangutans performed equally [12:40] well. There wasn't a difference. It's [12:41] not reasoning about physical things in [12:43] space that make us unique. [12:45] The other group of IQ problems were [12:47] social problems, where it required [12:50] reasoning about the mind of another [12:52] person. And this involved doing things [12:54] like tracking where someone's eyes are [12:56] looking [12:57] in order to monitor what someone is [12:59] thinking. Because we tend to look at [13:01] things we're thinking thinking about and [13:02] think about things we're looking at. If [13:03] I want to know what's on your mind, [13:05] what's governing your attention, I want [13:06] to be really good at tracking your eyes. [13:08] And we are amazing at this as human [13:10] beings. I can tell whether you're [13:12] looking at me right now or looking at my [13:13] right ear from this far without any [13:15] trouble. I can tell from 50 ft away [13:17] whether you're looking at me or looking [13:18] at, you know, 10 ft above me. We're [13:20] amazingly good at this. Super sensitive. [13:22] I couldn't calculate the angle on a roof [13:25] if you gave me a month and an armload of [13:27] protractors to do it, but I can detect [13:29] the angle in your eyes in an instant. [13:31] Also involved things like [13:33] being able to understand somebody's [13:35] intentions from their actions, right? [13:36] So, if I reach out to for this glass of [13:39] water and I miss it, [13:41] you can infer I'm thirsty and I want to [13:44] drink. You could Oh, you could hand me [13:45] the glass, Nick, right? If if I wanted [13:47] to drink. And because that's you [13:49] couldn't read my mind, essentially. You [13:50] could infer my thoughts. When they [13:51] tested the 2-year-old toddlers, the [13:53] chimps, and the orangutans on in these [13:55] social IQ tests, [13:57] that's where the 2-year-old toddlers [13:59] were shining. That's where we were [14:01] crushing the competition on those social [14:04] IQ problems. [14:05] You can do this, you know, in front of a [14:08] chimpanzee all day long and they will do [14:09] nothing for you, right? Nothing for you. [14:12] I do that in front of you and you can [14:13] hand me the glass of water super easily. [14:15] So, yes, the eyes give us a lot and we [14:17] are extremely sensitive to all of those [14:19] social cues that convey might convey [14:23] what's on the mind of another person cuz [14:24] it allows me to anticipate what you're [14:25] doing before you do it. [14:27] In today's financial landscape of [14:29] constant market shifts and chaotic news, [14:31] it's easy to feel uncertain about how to [14:33] save and invest your money. Wealthfront [14:35] is the solution that helps you take [14:36] control of your money while managing [14:38] risk. For nearly a decade, I've trusted [14:40] Wealthfront to navigate this volatility. [14:43] With the Wealthfront cash account, I can [14:45] earn 3.3% annual percentage yield or APY [14:48] on my cash from program banks, and I [14:50] know my money is growing until I'm ready [14:52] to spend it or invest it. 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That's [15:43] wealthfront.com/huberman [15:46] to get started. This is a paid [15:47] testimonial of Wealthfront. Client [15:49] experiences will vary. Wealthfront [15:51] brokerage is not a bank. The base APY is [15:54] as of January 30th, 2026, and subject to [15:57] change. For more information, please see [15:59] the episode description. Today's episode [16:02] is also brought to us by Eight Sleep. [16:04] Eight Sleep makes smart mattress covers [16:06] with cooling, heating, and sleep [16:07] tracking capacity. One of the best ways [16:09] to ensure you get a great night's sleep [16:11] is to make sure that the temperature of [16:12] your sleeping environment is correct. [16:14] And that's because in order to fall [16:16] asleep and stay deeply asleep, your body [16:18] temperature actually has to drop by [16:20] about 1 to 3°. And in order to wake up [16:22] feeling refreshed and energized, your [16:24] body temperature actually has to [16:25] increase by about 1 to 3°. 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[17:08] Eight Sleep ships to many countries [17:10] worldwide, including Mexico and the UAE. [17:13] Again, that's eight sleep.com/huberman [17:15] to save up to $350. [17:18] And you mentioned voice. Um I'm going to [17:21] make an assumption. I'm sure it's wrong. [17:23] Um or at least partially wrong. That [17:25] voice offers a lot of information about [17:28] autonomic tone, how stressed or how [17:30] relaxed somebody is. [17:32] >> Mhm. Uh and I'd be curious to know [17:34] A if that's true, what else it conveys, [17:37] and [17:38] also how much prior exposure to voice [17:41] matters. Today's the first time I've met [17:42] you. I don't know what your voice [17:43] normally sounds like in this context. So [17:45] I'm just operating off what I've got. [17:47] Yeah. So what's in voice? What's not in [17:49] voice? And and what what are we aware [17:51] of? What are we not aware? Yeah. So [17:53] there are lots of things contained in [17:54] the voice because it is very closely [17:56] connected to your mind. You notice that [17:57] your eyes are, right? Your eyes are [17:59] closed. But your your voice is also very [18:01] closely connected to your online [18:04] conscious experience. You are speaking [18:05] while you are thinking. And as you're [18:08] having thoughts, your voice can reflect [18:10] authentically what's going on in your [18:12] mind. So when I speed up, you can tell [18:15] I'm kind of excited about something. [18:17] When my voice varies in pitch, you can [18:19] tell if I'm enthusiastic or not or kind [18:21] of sad about something. You can pick up [18:24] a lot about what's actually going on in [18:25] the mind by listening to a person's [18:28] voice. And there are a couple of things [18:29] that we've studied in in our research. [18:31] One is voice just contains a lot of [18:34] information that allows us to understand [18:35] other people better. Right? So if you [18:37] compare typing to somebody versus [18:39] talking to them, the voice allows you to [18:41] to determine things like intentionality, [18:43] to to differentiate when you're telling [18:45] a joke or being sarcastic than when [18:47] you're not, right? What type does he [18:48] mean? [18:49] >> [laughter] [18:50] >> This is so funny, right? We think when [18:52] we're sending off an email to somebody. [18:53] It seems funny to us cuz we know this is [18:55] meant to be a joke. Person on the other [18:57] end doesn't realize the comment about [18:58] this person's aunt or brother or [19:00] whatever was meant to be a joke and [19:02] they're all offended, right? But if you [19:03] say this in your voice, sarcasm is [19:06] crystal clear. Interestingly, what we [19:08] find, and this is because of egocentrism [19:10] in part, we're not always so sensitive [19:13] to how our own communication is [19:15] interpreted by another person because we [19:17] know what we're thinking when we're [19:19] conveying something, we tend to think [19:21] we'll be understood equally well whether [19:24] we're typing or talking, but of course [19:25] on the receiving end it varies a lot. [19:27] So, voice contains a lot of information [19:29] that allows us to understand what [19:31] somebody's saying better. [19:32] But, what we also find, which I think [19:34] is, at least from my perspective, also [19:37] interesting, is that the voice also [19:39] conveys the presence of mind. [19:42] I don't have access to your thinking, to [19:44] your reasoning, to to what's going on [19:47] between your ears. I can only watch from [19:49] the outside, right? And I get cues. I [19:50] can see your visual gaze, but I can also [19:53] hear you. The voice contains a lot of [19:55] cues to the presence of mind. [19:58] When you're really thinking hard about [19:59] something, your voice slows down and you [20:02] deliberate. And that variability in the [20:04] pace of your voice kind of tells me that [20:07] your mind is alive. Just like I can tell [20:09] that you're biologically alive because [20:11] you're moving, [20:13] your voice also moves and it tells me [20:15] you got a lively mind. It conveys the [20:17] presence of emotion. It can prevent [20:19] convey the presence of thinking. So, [20:22] when we have partisans, for instance, [20:24] we did this This is with Juliana [20:26] Schroeder, who is one of my amazing PhD [20:27] students from years ago. She's now on [20:29] the faculty at Berkeley at at Haas. We [20:32] had people This was on the eve of the [20:34] 2016 election between Donald Trump and [20:37] Hillary Clinton. [20:38] We had [20:40] people who were voting for Trump or [20:41] Clinton [20:43] say why they were voting for the [20:45] candidate they were voting for. [20:47] And they gave a verbal pitch. And we [20:49] could get a few different cues from [20:51] this. We could get an audio recorded [20:53] clip, so we could see and hear the [20:54] person. We could just get their voice. [20:57] And we could also strip out their voice [20:58] and just see the content of their text, [21:00] right? To see the words they were [21:01] saying. They also wrote a pitch about an [21:03] explanation for why they were voting for [21:04] this particular candidate, okay? [21:06] What we then did was we had people [21:09] watch and listen, listen, read the [21:12] transcript, or read the [21:15] the written explanation, [21:17] and say [21:20] essentially, how mindful is this person? [21:22] How thoughtful are they? How thoughtful, [21:24] how intelligent, how rational, [21:26] how capable of experiencing emotions are [21:28] they? Essentially, they're asking, are [21:30] you a mindful, intelligent person, or [21:33] are you kind of just like a mindless [21:34] idiot? Are you human-like, or are you [21:37] kind of not human-like, like a more like [21:38] a rock? [21:40] And what we found was that when people [21:42] could hear [21:44] what the person had to say, either while [21:45] also seeing them, or just with their [21:47] voice, they rated the person, [21:49] particularly when they disagreed with [21:51] them, when there was person on the other [21:53] side, [21:54] as more thoughtful, more intelligent, [21:56] more rational. This tendency to [21:57] dehumanize the other side, to think of [22:00] them as mindless idiots, was [22:02] dramatically reduced when you actually [22:04] heard what the other person has to say. [22:07] So, I think the voice, along with the [22:08] eyes, along with eyes gaze I gaze, but [22:11] the voice allows us, gives us a lot of [22:12] information, allows us to understand [22:14] what's on somebody's mind, and it also [22:16] allows us something deeper, allows me to [22:17] tell you that you've got a mind, that [22:19] you have one. [22:20] Very interesting. I the vision piece I'm [22:23] familiar with for reasons I stated [22:25] before. The physical behavior piece [22:27] makes a lot of sense. The the voice [22:29] piece as a reflection of an active mind [22:33] is something I really haven't [22:34] considered. You know, we'll hear [22:36] sometimes that the content of people's [22:39] words is less informative than, you [22:41] know, the timbre of their voice or or [22:43] something like that. I I don't know that [22:44] I completely believe that. I I think [22:46] that that's a I think that's a 90s [22:48] That's like an 80s 90s pop psychology [22:51] ism. [22:51] >> Absolutely. That is a highly stylized [22:54] experimental result. Mhm. All right. So, [22:56] you will sometimes hear in this pop [22:59] psych world that 80% of what's [23:01] communicated is communicated through [23:02] paralinguistic. That obviously is not [23:05] true. You're not going to I'm not going [23:06] to be able to tell you about my book [23:08] just by using the tone of my voice. [23:09] Right. So that is that certainly [23:11] >> Words Words matter. [23:12] >> The words certainly do matter. But above [23:14] and beyond that, there are other things [23:16] that matter in a person's voice that at [23:19] least we find people aren't so sensitive [23:21] to. So when we ask for instance [23:23] when we ask our MBA students [23:25] to give an elevator pitch as Juliana and [23:27] I did in in one of our one of our [23:29] experiments. Give an elevator pitch for [23:30] their their their desired job, the job [23:32] they want most, right? Why should this [23:35] company hire you? [23:36] They can give it with their voice, so we [23:38] do the audio and visual. [23:41] Uh we do just the audio. We pull out the [23:43] transcript, just get the words. Or they [23:45] type their pitch. We then have people [23:48] watch and listen, listen, or read these [23:50] pitches and say, "How intelligent does [23:52] this person seem to be? [23:54] How hirable does this person seem to [23:56] be?" And we've done this both with [23:58] people who imagine working for companies [23:59] and also with Fortune 500 recruiters, [24:01] too. [24:02] The person seems more intelligent, more [24:04] rational, more thoughtful, more hirable [24:07] when you hear what they have to say. [24:09] And yet the MBA students themselves [24:11] think they'll be judged equally on those [24:13] two. They're not. [24:14] And when we asked like a separate [24:16] separate group of people, "If you wanted [24:17] to communicate with somebody in a way [24:19] that would make you seem most [24:20] intelligent [24:21] overwhelmingly people say [24:23] I'd rather write." Hm. And the thinking [24:26] behind that I think is that people think [24:27] they can edit and such. But what they're [24:29] missing [24:30] is that the sound of your voice conveys [24:32] a lot more. It conveys the fact that you [24:35] have a mind. [24:36] Cuz I can't see it and I can't read it [24:38] in your dead text, right? Your dead text [24:40] [snorts] has none of the paralinguistic [24:42] cues or features. Really talented [24:44] writers, novelists can do this. [24:47] But mostly your text is dead. It doesn't [24:50] have intonation. [24:51] It doesn't change its pitch. It doesn't [24:54] show me thinking while it's actually [24:55] happening. [24:57] And people don't seem to realize that. [24:59] What does this reveal to us about AI? [25:02] Um [25:03] because people are spending more and [25:05] more time with AI, on AI. [25:08] >> Yeah. And what comes back is text. I [25:11] mean, there are versions of it and soon [25:13] I imagine there will be elaborated [25:14] versions of it with um avatars or even [25:17] uh video Yeah, for sure. AI. Are you [25:20] generally enthusiastic about what that [25:22] could bring in terms of [25:24] better understanding other humans? Cuz I [25:27] could imagine a world where, you know, I [25:28] can't reach you, but I could go on AI [25:30] and say, "Hey Nick, [25:32] I would just do it directly. Hey Nick, [25:34] uh I'm really curious. I'm going to the [25:36] Midwest where you're from and I'm super [25:39] interested in like culturally, what's [25:42] the best way that I could connect with [25:43] someone around this, this, and this, [25:45] given the content on the internet? The [25:47] uh LLM should be able to have a video of [25:49] you delivered to me uh what you would [25:52] say, or pretty close to it. Is that that [25:54] can be better than than a bullet point [25:55] list? It will, yeah. So, people will [25:57] find it more believable, I think, right? [25:59] But a lot of the things that people turn [26:00] to AI for now are for facts, right? For [26:04] actual information, for text. But [26:06] I do think increasingly it's going to be [26:09] used for social stuff. Yeah. [26:10] >> People feel lonely, disconnected, they [26:12] need a friend. I'm friends with Liz Dunn [26:14] who's a fabulous psychologist at [26:16] University of British Columbia. And she [26:18] told me [26:19] that they're starting to do research [26:21] about allowing people to to practice [26:24] having conversations with AI before they [26:26] actually have a conversation with [26:28] another person, like a conflict. [26:29] >> Mhm. I can see ways in which AI could be [26:31] used to do lots of things. I can also [26:33] see obvious problems with it. If I'm [26:35] connecting with the AI and I'm not [26:37] connecting with other humans, I can see [26:38] problems with it. But I think in terms [26:40] of the presence versus absence of a [26:42] voice, um [26:44] I do think voice will allow us to the [26:46] extent that it's good and perfect, [26:47] right? Sounds like a human voice. [26:50] Our predict My prediction would be that [26:51] you can trust it more when you hear what [26:53] it has to say. As long as it mimics [26:56] really well a human voice. [26:58] Cuz you'd anthropomorphize it just like [26:59] you do another person. I don't want to [27:01] spend too much time on politics, but I [27:03] can't help but ask this next question. [27:05] Um [27:05] way back when uh [27:08] Bush was president, second one, um I [27:10] recall there was a lot of discussion [27:12] around um [27:15] people who voted for him saying, "He's [27:17] the kind of guy you'd want to have a [27:18] beer with." [27:19] >> Yeah. Right? [27:19] >> Yeah. Which I interpreted as [27:23] there's something about his style of [27:24] speech which was very everyday. [27:26] >> Yes. And we don't have to talk about [27:29] current candidates and politicians, not [27:30] to avoid it. I don't have to answer on [27:32] anything these days. But I think it [27:33] nowadays we have a lot of access to [27:36] people talking on video. They you know, [27:38] when you and I were growing up, I think [27:40] we're more or less the same age. You [27:41] know, there would be a pre- presidential [27:44] address or there'd be a campaign and you [27:46] hear from people, but it was it was very [27:47] limited. You didn't get so much exposure [27:49] to people. So now we have more and more [27:51] information about voice, about behavior, [27:53] about decision-making um depending on [27:56] the resolution where their eyes are [27:57] going. Um [27:59] do you think that we're getting [28:00] better at assessing [28:03] public figures or are we getting worse [28:05] at assessing public figures? [28:06] >> question. [28:07] I think uh that'll take me too far out [28:09] on a limb. I don't I don't know. I don't [28:11] know the answer to that. I mean, there's [28:12] so much information that we have now. Um [28:17] but the other thing too is that the way [28:19] we evaluate other people, and this is [28:21] this is central to a lot of our [28:22] research, other people are ambiguous, [28:25] right? They're not crystal clear. That [28:27] same thing that I say to you that I mean [28:29] to be a joke can sound really hostile or [28:31] violent to another person, right? Can [28:33] sound really awful and be taken as [28:35] offensive. So I think that that's what [28:37] make my makes my work as a psychologist [28:39] so so interesting. [28:41] In the early 1900s, psychologist, you [28:44] know, when social psychology, my field, [28:46] and cognitive psychology started, it [28:48] came out of, you know, basically biology [28:52] and vision sciences and and basic [28:54] sensory perception, thinking that we [28:57] could understand human thinking and [28:58] measure it, measure our judgments about [29:00] each other in the same way that we [29:01] measure how people evaluate hot and cold [29:04] and stuff like that. But it turns out [29:05] that other people are very ambiguous. [29:08] It's not always so crystal clear. And [29:10] so, two people with a different set of [29:12] beliefs or attitudes or perspectives on [29:15] the situation can look at the very same [29:17] stimulus [29:18] and see totally different things, right? [29:21] A lot of our judgment is not happening [29:23] out there, coming to us. It's happening [29:26] in here, interpreting what we're seeing. [29:28] And in the world of politics, everyone [29:31] who's listening to this podcast knows [29:33] just how ambiguous things are. Somebody [29:35] says something and the right will, you [29:37] know, think interpret it this way, the [29:38] left will interpret it that way. It's [29:39] known as my side bias. Even the very [29:42] same stimulus, right? So, there is this [29:45] sense that if we get more and more and [29:47] more information, [29:48] then we'll understand people better, [29:50] better, better. [29:51] That's not necessarily true if we come [29:53] into these perceptions, into these [29:55] viewing these things with very different [29:57] starting points, a very different [29:58] perspectives to begin with. You've [29:59] worked a lot on this notion of under [30:01] socialization. [30:02] >> Mhm. If I may, I'd like to invert it for [30:05] today's conversation and uh [30:07] talk a little bit less through the lens [30:10] of how bad it is if we're under [30:11] socialized and um explore instead how [30:14] good it is if we do socialize. [30:16] >> Yeah. Um not because I I have to make [30:18] things positive, but because ultimately [30:20] I think actions to socialize more are [30:23] going to be useful. And [30:25] >> [clears throat] [30:25] >> um [30:26] I'm tempted to set this up as an [30:28] experiment. Uh-huh. So, as with the the [30:30] example of balls you gave before, in the [30:31] most deprived condition, a human is in [30:35] total isolation. [30:36] >> Yes. [30:36] Okay, so, um [30:38] another condition is they can, let's [30:40] just say, text with somebody else, but [30:42] they can't see them and they they've [30:43] never seen them. [30:44] >> Yeah. Then we can ratchet that up, [30:45] right? They've seen them before, they [30:46] can make a phone call, they can do video [30:48] chat, they're in person. I can see a [30:51] million excellent arguments for while [30:53] why in-person interaction is good. But [30:56] what is the evidence that the other [30:57] forms of social interaction are good [31:00] also? We hear so much about how they're [31:01] bad, but we also hear about the [31:03] isolation crisis. Yeah. And so we've [31:05] sort of I've lumped [31:08] the more deprived versions of [31:11] socialization in with isolation, and I'm [31:14] not sure that I accept that. I'm not [31:16] trying to counter your work. I don't [31:18] know enough about to do it. I'm not [31:19] qualified to anyway. But is texting with [31:21] a friend healthy as opposed to spending [31:24] time alone? For sure. Okay. In person [31:26] time clearly being the best. [31:27] >> It's a little better. Although going [31:29] from no contact to some contact is the [31:31] big leap. Tell me more. So, being [31:34] isolated is a spending a day alone is [31:36] pretty is pretty miserable. So, when [31:39] psychologists look at this this comes [31:40] from a from a famous [31:43] paper by Danny Kahneman and Angus [31:44] Deaton, both Nobel Prize winners in [31:46] economics, neither of them economists, [31:48] that looked at the Gallup daily [31:50] well-being poll, right? And the call [31:54] they they call people up every day and [31:56] they ask them how you're feeling today [31:57] in a number of different ways. We [31:59] they actually ask you about the day [32:01] before. Yesterday did you enjoy [32:03] yesterday? Did you feel enjoyment [32:04] yesterday? Were did you smile yesterday? [32:06] Did you experience sadness yesterday? [32:08] Right? Did you experience stress [32:09] yesterday? And they they So, they ask [32:11] about these different measures of [32:12] well-being. [32:13] They also ask about all kinds of other [32:14] things like how much money you're [32:15] making, are you religious or not, [32:18] they know how much insurance you have, [32:20] whether you're surveyed on a weekend or [32:21] a weekday. They also ask you, [32:23] did you spend yesterday entirely alone [32:25] or not? And when they do that, you can [32:27] compare the effects of things like [32:28] social isolation, you know, being alone [32:30] versus not against these other things. [32:32] It turns out the difference between [32:33] spending yesterday alone versus somebody [32:36] else, the difference in your well-being [32:37] on these other measures is about seven [32:39] times bigger than being relatively high [32:41] or low on their income measure, which is [32:43] about a $60,000 difference between these [32:45] two groups. That being alone is bad. [32:47] That's a bad day. Okay? And having [32:49] connections with other people improves [32:51] it pretty dramatically. Above and beyond [32:53] that, you know, it it does matter. It [32:55] can be it's it's it is better those [32:58] interactions, but now you're you're [33:01] you're adding good things to what was [33:03] already somewhat a a good thing. Plus, [33:06] we also need to [33:07] we need to unpack a little bit what [33:09] these different media do. They're good [33:11] for different things. And we don't [33:12] always use them for in the ways that are [33:14] right, but I think, you know, in many [33:15] ways we do. Like, if I [33:17] send you a text or I send my wife a [33:18] text, right? She's she's back in [33:19] Illinois today. We've been married for [33:21] nearly 30 It'll be 30 years in August [33:23] this year. We know a ton about each [33:25] other. I can send her, you know, a heart [33:28] when I'm feeling, you know, love and I [33:30] want to send her let her know that. And [33:31] she's going to feel that's going to lift [33:32] her up a little bit. That's going to [33:33] feel good. We already have a [33:35] relationship that's establishing just [33:37] some some contact. Texting is great for [33:39] that. It can allow us to stay in contact [33:40] with somebody. [33:42] It is not good for building a [33:44] relationship necessarily over time. [33:46] Like, if we're going to spend a half [33:47] hour typing to each other, it's not a [33:48] good way to spend that half hour. I'd be [33:50] much better at picking up the phone and [33:52] talking to you to help establish that [33:54] relationship. But absolutely, the [33:56] ability to reach out and connect with [33:57] other people [33:59] frequently, as texting is used out in [34:01] the world, can allow us to stay [34:03] connected. Now, if that's the only thing [34:04] we're doing, if we're not actually [34:06] spending time developing more meaningful [34:08] relationships with people, [34:10] that's not going to be as good as it as [34:12] it could be. But you started this by [34:14] asking about sociality more generally. [34:16] And why is being social good for us? The [34:19] fact of the matter is, even with our [34:21] imperfections in thinking about the [34:22] minds of others, we are highly social. [34:25] Just the ability to think in the level [34:28] of sophistication that we do about the [34:30] minds of other people shows how [34:32] important the sociality is for us. And [34:35] you see the importance of sociality just [34:37] almost everywhere you look, the way our [34:39] brain is organized, right? So, our [34:40] neocortex is massive relative to the [34:43] rest of our brain compared to our [34:44] nearest primate relatives, the the [34:46] chimpanzees. A lot of that stuff is good [34:49] for social stuff, right? For theory of [34:50] mind use, for keeping track of who knows [34:52] what and who you should trust and who [34:53] you should avoid. Living in large social [34:55] groups is complicated, right? And the [34:58] size of our brain reflects a [34:59] complication. If you look across primate [35:01] species, the size of the neocortex [35:03] relative to the rest of the brain is [35:04] correlated with this is this is [35:07] uh this is work on the social brain [35:08] hypothesis, right? The size of the [35:10] neocortex relative to the rest of the [35:12] brain is correlated with the social [35:14] complexity of the group the primate [35:15] species lives in. [35:17] Our brains are built to be social. Also, [35:19] for most of human history, being alone [35:21] and isolated is a death sentence, right? [35:24] You can't live on your own. We We depend [35:26] on each other for survival. That also [35:28] means that we have a neural architecture [35:31] that is desperately trying to keep us [35:32] connected with other people. And so, [35:34] when you spend a day alone, the reason [35:36] why it feels like crap as my uh as my [35:38] late colleague and friend John Cacioppo, [35:40] who was at the uh University of Chicago, [35:42] studied loneliness, really is the world [35:45] was the world's expert on loneliness, [35:48] noted that that your neural architecture [35:50] is screaming at you when you are feeling [35:52] when you are alone to reach out and [35:54] connect with other people. That's why [35:55] loneliness feels bad, right? And that's [35:58] why the opposite of loneliness feels so [36:00] good, like getting like getting a hug, [36:02] that feels good. Your brain is trying to [36:03] tell you get out there and connect with [36:06] other people. So, when you're lonely, [36:07] you get spikes in cortisol in your [36:09] bloodstream that compromises your [36:11] cardiovascular functioning, that [36:12] compromises your immune system. That's [36:15] why being lonely can make you sick and [36:18] why it can shorten your life, right? You [36:21] also see that the opposite of [36:23] loneliness, connecting with other [36:24] people, just feels darn good, right? [36:25] That's your brain telling you that's [36:27] your body telling you, "Yeah, do this a [36:28] little more often. This is really good." [36:30] Right? So, when you have that little [36:31] conversation with the with a stranger [36:33] like I did coming you know coming in, I [36:35] had this amazing conversation. It was [36:37] actually a very deep, hard conversation [36:39] with my Uber driver who was Iranian, [36:42] uh had lost a son in a protest. Shot in [36:45] the neck years ago. In Iran. In Iran, [36:48] yeah. Very painful, but also very [36:51] meaningful. Connected us to each other. [36:52] Felt a very strong bond with each other [36:55] in that moment. That's your brain [36:56] telling you, that's the kind of thing [36:58] that we're built for, right? Because [37:01] living alone for most of human history [37:03] was a bad bad thing. So, we are [37:06] hyper-social agents interested in [37:08] connecting with other people. It doesn't [37:09] always mean we know exactly how to do it [37:11] or that we we get it right, but going [37:13] from nothing to something is a huge leap [37:16] for us. And texting can sometimes help [37:17] us do that. One comment, one question. [37:20] Um sometimes I like a day alone. Yeah, [37:22] for everybody else it's but that's [37:24] because I I don't spend time around lots [37:26] of people, but I spend a lot of time [37:27] around certain set of people. I adore [37:29] them, but you know, sometimes it's nice [37:31] to get that space. But one thing that [37:33] I've noticed that because when I was a [37:35] graduate student I'd run these [37:36] experiments often during the holidays [37:38] because I worked on developmental [37:39] neurobiology. I didn't have a choice. [37:41] If that you know, if my experimental [37:43] subjects were a certain postnatal age, I [37:45] was working that day. It was my my after [37:48] all. And there's this kind of [37:50] interesting [37:51] idea that I'm not sure I subscribe to, [37:53] but [37:54] well, that I do subscribe to. Forgive [37:55] me. That [37:57] there's something about us as humans [37:58] that we really like to create action at [38:01] a distance, you know, and I don't know [38:03] if there's a sex difference here, but I [38:05] think it's like you know, young boys [38:06] like to create like a rocket or a remote [38:08] control car, you know, you have boys, [38:09] you know. Or you see something happen [38:11] over there um that you controlled in in [38:14] a in a meaningful way. And it doesn't [38:15] have to be violent, right? It we did [38:17] rockets and guns, but it it could have [38:18] could be something else, but [38:20] this is somewhat philosophical more than [38:22] it's scientific, but could it be that if [38:24] we spend too much time alone, we got all [38:27] this stuff in our mind and it's very [38:30] hard to create some sort of [38:32] reverberation or or action at at a [38:35] distance that we know reflects us. And I [38:37] wonder if our unconscious mind actually [38:39] gets to the question like, do I even [38:40] exist? Now, of course, we know we exist. [38:43] We can touch our limbs and but the [38:45] social isolation fear, you know, if I've [38:47] got fridge full of food and I've got [38:49] music and I've got audiobooks. That's [38:51] all incoming, but at some point you do [38:53] get a little I know cuz I've spent days [38:55] upon days during experiments back when [38:56] by myself, but you you get a little [38:58] weird. Yeah. [39:00] >> Your thoughts get a little distorted and [39:02] and it's almost like you know there's [39:04] stuff out there, but if you spend enough [39:05] time away from it, it it kind of messes [39:07] with your head a little bit. [39:08] >> Yeah. And then of course we think of [39:10] like the Ted Kaczynski types and these [39:12] extremes of people that have gone into [39:13] isolation. There's that movie about the [39:15] the true story that um [39:17] uh guy that goes into the wilderness. [39:19] Oh, yeah. Right. Um [39:21] Yeah, Eddie Vedder wrote the soundtrack [39:22] to that movie. [39:23] >> Right. And and I love that. [39:24] >> Into the Into the Wild. [39:25] >> That's right. And um McCandless, right? [39:27] McCandless. Yeah. Yeah. And I think he [39:29] wrote at the end, you know, the [39:30] connection with people is the thing. You [39:32] know, he had this romantic view of going [39:34] out into the wilderness by himself or we [39:36] think of, you know, Walden Pond and you [39:38] know, we romanticize this thing about [39:39] being alone for long extended amounts of [39:41] time. [39:42] But I think it raises real questions [39:45] about whether or not we're [39:46] even there. It's sort of the [39:48] the most existential version of like, if [39:50] a tree falls in the woods that you know, [39:52] no one's there, did it make a sound? [39:53] It's sort of like if we have thoughts [39:54] and emotions and experiences and there's [39:56] no one else around [39:57] >> Yeah. to reflect those [40:00] for them to have impact on like, do we [40:01] even exist? [40:02] >> Yeah, yeah. [40:03] >> And then this might be some hardwiring. [40:04] Here I'm getting like almost Freudian, [40:05] and so forgive me, I'm not a [40:06] psychologist. [40:07] >> Yeah. I Yeah. But I'm I'm curious what [40:09] what your thoughts are about the [40:10] relationship between the fear of [40:12] isolation, our need for for our thoughts [40:15] and desires and behaviors to to have [40:18] some sort of reverberation [40:19] >> Mhm. [40:19] >> Mhm. out there. Some responsiveness to [40:22] us or something. [40:22] >> confirmation that we're actually here. I [40:24] think the closest research to this, to [40:26] the extent that there is research on [40:28] this, is what happens to people, [40:30] prisoners who are put in solitary [40:31] confinement. And it's not good for their [40:33] mental health. It's not good for their [40:34] sense of selves, for who they are. They [40:36] do lose a sense of themselves. There's [40:39] not great research on this cuz you can't [40:40] randomly assign people to be isolated [40:42] for long periods of time, right? [40:44] >> Thank goodness. Thank goodness. Yes, [40:45] that that's why we have IRBs, right? But [40:48] that experience I think is very real. [40:50] What when you were talking about this, [40:51] it made me think of [40:53] research in the early 1900s, theories [40:55] from sociologists [40:57] that the way we understand ourselves is [40:59] through other people. [41:01] The way I know who I am, what I'm like [41:04] as a person, who Nick is, is from [41:06] talking with you, Andrew. And when we [41:09] are in conversation, that's when I'm [41:11] learning about myself. You're telling me [41:12] about myself, I'm having thoughts that [41:14] I'm sharing with you, and that's what [41:16] gives me a sense of self, this looking [41:18] glass self. And our sense of [41:20] self-esteem, in fact, is highly highly [41:22] tied, am I a valuable person, is highly [41:24] tied to how well we're getting along [41:26] with other people. Psychologists [41:29] believe that it is a monitor, in fact, [41:31] for how well you're getting along with [41:32] people. Your very sense of self-worth. [41:34] And so when there is nobody out there, [41:37] I think you're absolutely right. That's [41:39] a that you can you can lose your sense [41:41] of of who you are. And people who go out [41:43] to the woods, I remember when I was a [41:44] when I was a kid, um I actually wrote [41:47] this up I I won an early career award [41:49] from APA, which is a great honor for me. [41:51] But in the in the bio that they asked [41:53] you to write, I I wrote in that that uh [41:56] about my childhood dream, my childhood [41:58] before I was 9 years old. I believed I [42:00] was going to be a mountain man. Like I [42:01] grew up in the woods in Iowa, hunting [42:03] and fishing, being outdoors. All my [42:04] extended family were farmers. Watching [42:06] Grizzly Adams on TV. Like I thought that [42:08] was a legit job. Like you could I could [42:11] actually go do this, right? And I was [42:13] about 9 years old when I don't remember [42:16] quite how this happened, but I learned [42:17] that this was not a real job. Like it [42:19] was it was not a legit thing that I [42:21] could do, right? But yes, I had [42:22] romanticized it as well that this is [42:24] going to be a wonderful thing to be able [42:25] to do. But when people actually go out [42:27] and do that, they mostly go insane [42:30] within a very, you know, while. [42:33] As many of you know, I've been taking [42:34] AG1 for nearly 15 years now. I [42:37] discovered it way back in 2012, long [42:40] before I had a podcast, and I've been [42:41] taking it every day since. 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[44:00] It has a collection of different things [44:01] in it that has dramatically improved my [44:03] sleep, both my slow-wave deep sleep and [44:06] my rapid eye movement sleep, and I [44:07] absolutely love it. Again, that's [44:09] drinkag1.com/huberman [44:12] to get a week's supply of AGZ and a [44:13] bottle of D3K2 with your subscription. [44:16] Social media, which I spend a decent [44:19] amount of time on cuz I teach there and [44:20] I learn there, um you know, we know has [44:23] healthy aspects and unhealthy aspects. [44:25] >> Mhm. [44:26] A bunch of variables there, age, what [44:28] people are looking at, etc. How much [44:29] time they're spending on it. [44:31] >> Yeah, but social media offered people [44:33] this opportunity to get out of aloneness [44:37] through a different form of connection. [44:38] And so, if we just kind of [44:40] hypothesize that having our words or our [44:44] thoughts have an a visible [44:46] a known impact on somebody else's words [44:49] or thoughts provides some sort of [44:50] confirmation that we're there. It [44:52] >> Mhm. kind of explains why, you know, [44:54] taking the most aggressive or [44:57] uh or outrageous thought and putting a [45:00] comment, and then somebody responds or [45:02] other people dogpile or they respond. [45:04] >> And then you're like, I'm having an [45:05] effect out there, also safely behind a [45:07] wall, right? There's no um I think we're [45:09] critical of that safely behind a wall [45:10] piece. You know, that they the [45:12] stereotype that you hear online is like, [45:13] you know, [45:15] you know, Apple 7689 in his mom's [45:18] basement, like, you know, trolling [45:19] people, you know, and you but then we [45:21] forget, like, that person's alone in [45:23] their basement. Why are they doing it? [45:24] Like, why is [clears throat] it so [45:25] satisfying to them? I don't actually [45:27] believe that Yeah. most of these people [45:28] are evil. Some of them might be, but I [45:30] probably they want to see their words [45:33] and thoughts have an effect. And the [45:34] >> That's right. to do that is to poke or [45:36] to say something outrageous. And so, I'm [45:39] hoping that whoever runs these platforms [45:41] will try to create incentives for um [45:44] more positive interactions, because I [45:46] think what ultimately what most people [45:48] want is the interaction, to feel that [45:51] their thoughts and their feelings matter [45:54] out there. So, if we can go to something [45:56] even a little more concrete, if we just [45:58] think about conversation, right? The the [46:00] and forth. Why is the conversation is [46:02] often such a pleasant thing? It is [46:04] because there is back and forth [46:06] responsiveness in the conversation that [46:08] allows me to detect that you're paying [46:11] attention to me. Right now, you're [46:12] looking at me, right? You're nodding at [46:13] me as I'm speaking and you'll give a mhm [46:15] or right or yes I'm going along and that [46:18] allows me to recognize my thoughts are [46:20] having an effect on you in a way that's [46:23] having a positive effect [46:25] in return on me. And so I think very [46:27] much the that action action at a [46:29] distance as you put it, psychologist [46:32] talk about that as responsiveness or [46:33] being in synchrony with another person [46:36] is part of what makes conversation feel [46:38] so good. I have some friends who are [46:40] recording artists and the only reason [46:42] they still tour [46:43] Oh, yeah. [46:44] >> it is it's not for the money. Believe me [46:46] the money's in some cases is good but [46:47] it's not as good as money they can make [46:49] doing other things. [46:50] It's a huge hassle. Yeah. Um takes them [46:53] away from families or security issues. [46:54] There's all this stuff but they get to [46:56] experience the apex of [47:00] collective human action at a distance [47:02] based on their [47:03] >> They're doing their inflections, their [47:05] >> Yes. things you mentioned Eddie Vedder, [47:07] right? There's and then there stories of [47:09] him or whatever you like scaled the the [47:11] at at some concert Eddie scaled up and [47:13] like grabbed the microphone got Oh, [47:14] yeah. [47:15] >> and then he and then he [laughter] [47:16] actually actually watched it it was [47:17] pretty dangerous and then he and then he [47:19] actually repelled down on the microphone [47:21] wire. Yeah, this was all spontaneous. So [47:23] he's doing these things. I don't know [47:24] how much he's conscious of the fact that [47:26] he's, you know, exciting people and you [47:27] know, but but recording artists love to [47:30] do this. They don't just love to sing. [47:31] They love to see the response of the [47:33] people they sing to. And people go to [47:35] concerts [47:36] >> Right. I believe because [47:38] whether they understand it or not, [47:40] they're having an impact on what's [47:42] happening up on stage. And they're very [47:43] aware of that. [47:44] >> that reciprocity. So I think we're just [47:46] driven to do this. I I have to believe [47:49] that that this is [47:50] part of our core wiring. When when we're [47:53] kids [47:54] and we round up in preschool like when [47:56] they all everyone round up and they [47:57] everyone tries to sit still and the [47:59] girls generally can and the boys [48:01] generally can't for a little while. You [48:02] know, like until a later age. There's a [48:04] lot of learning to let others speak, to [48:07] kind of like hold things in. So, as a [48:10] human psychologist, if you were to play [48:12] primatologist for a moment and we are a [48:13] human old world primates, what are the [48:17] sort of core components that [48:19] social connection are built on? You [48:21] know, what we talked about dialogue, we [48:23] talked about vision, we talked about [48:24] sharing. Is it You know, but [48:26] we don't get a whole lot of training in [48:28] this if you really think about it. We we [48:29] just kind of go through school, we learn [48:31] to sit, we learn to listen. You're not [48:32] supposed to hit people, you're not [48:33] supposed to yell at people. You you [48:35] know, you run around at recess and and [48:37] and so on and you do what other people [48:38] do. But like what is the socialization [48:42] in in human primates? What are the core [48:44] features that make somebody able to [48:48] function really well socially or not? I [48:50] think the thing to keep in mind at least [48:53] is the reason why we think social [48:54] connection matters so much, why it's so [48:56] important is that it allows us to [48:58] coordinate with other people. [49:00] And if I can coordinate with you, then [49:02] you and I are better able to survive and [49:04] to exist and pass along our genes than [49:06] if we can't coordinate with each other. [49:08] And that groups that are able to [49:10] coordinate with each other, collectively [49:12] cooperate with each other in ways that [49:14] are that are good for the common good, [49:17] those groups outperform groups where [49:19] people are just at each other's throat, [49:20] nobody's cooperating, right? This is why [49:23] corporations [49:24] function effectively. You get a [49:26] collection of individuals all operating [49:29] as a single unit, all oriented towards [49:31] one common goal and you can get a [49:33] collection of people, of individuals [49:35] then doing things that are way more [49:37] advanced and way bigger than any [49:38] individual would do on their own. This [49:40] is why the East Indian Trading Company [49:42] was able to send ships all around the [49:44] world cuz they had resources tied up in [49:46] corporations so that they could send [49:48] ships out in the world and if one went [49:50] down, you wouldn't lose all of your all [49:52] of your resources. You wouldn't lose all [49:54] your riches as an investor. So, all of [49:57] social connection, at least [49:59] evolutionarily speaking, this is the [50:01] idea, is pushing us toward cooperation [50:03] and coordination particularly with [50:05] non-kin. [50:06] That's what makes us truly social on [50:09] this planet is our ability to cooperate [50:12] and to care for non-kin. You don't need [50:15] coordination with family members. Uh you [50:18] know, you don't need any any special [50:19] evolutionary mechanism to get [50:21] coordination with family members. They [50:22] have your They have your genes, right? [50:23] They have your genes. So, that makes [50:24] perfect sense. You're leaving genetic [50:26] offspring. But, you need something else [50:28] to explain why I'm so friendly with you. [50:31] And why we coordinate so well out there [50:34] in the world. We drive on the right side [50:35] of the road. We're We befriend people uh [50:37] who we're not related to. And that's [50:40] where I think all of this That's what [50:41] all That's what social connection is [50:43] ultimately trying to serve is that [50:45] coordination function. Do you think [50:47] there are hardwired mechanisms that set [50:51] us up for cooperation with our genetic [50:53] offspring and siblings and so forth more [50:56] so than with non-genetic uh I know you [50:59] have adopted kids. Uh we have adopted [51:01] kids in our family as well. And I and [51:04] it's sort of weird to say this cuz it's [51:05] kind of a duh, but for people that don't [51:07] have adopted family members, like the [51:08] notion that they're not like [51:11] really part of your family is is insane. [51:13] Like you know, I can I I for privacy [51:15] reasons I don't want to disclose who [51:16] these people are, but I can tell you [51:17] that um I have a younger family member [51:19] who was adopted. And [51:22] I [51:22] never ever ever think for a moment that [51:26] she's not part of our family. Right? I'd [51:27] lay down in traffic for her the same way [51:29] I would for any other member of my [51:31] family. And I wasn't the one that raised [51:33] her. Do you think there's something [51:34] hardwired about [51:36] our genetic offspring than and the other [51:39] stuff [51:40] fortunately develops? Adopted children, [51:43] close friends, um community members. [51:45] >> Yeah. I don't know the answer to that [51:47] exactly. That's not what I study per se. [51:49] What I what I can tell you though as a [51:52] social psychologist is that what we [51:55] study is the power of context and roles [51:58] to drive behavior and the thing that you [52:00] are speaking to and the thing that we [52:02] have experienced as parents, we have [52:04] three adopted children. [52:06] What really matters is the role you [52:09] play, right? And that is magical. When [52:11] we adopted our first two [52:12] children [52:14] um [52:15] from Ethiopia [52:17] we made a decision to do this and and [52:19] when you adopt you there there's a point [52:21] where you move from this being [52:23] hypothetical to being this being real. [52:26] Okay? And the way this worked for us was [52:28] that we were shown pictures of these [52:33] children who we could adopt and of [52:35] course once you're once you're in on it [52:36] like you're all in, you're not really [52:37] making a choice. I'm not sure. As I said [52:41] you know, we called we called up the [52:42] agency. We said we were ready to go. And [52:45] and they said how about these? [52:48] And they put a picture up for us. [52:50] And when we first making this decision, [52:52] it was hypothetical. [52:54] And the pictures looked different to us. [52:57] These kids have come from our kids have [52:58] come from very very hard places in life. [53:00] You don't end up in an orphanage another [53:02] part of the world unless you've come [53:04] through hard places. They had come [53:05] through very hard places. They were in [53:07] the second and third percentile in the [53:08] WHO height and uh weight charts. [53:13] They were in tough shape. [53:15] As soon as Jen and I said [53:17] yeah, we can do this. I don't I'm I so [53:19] vividly remember this. [53:21] They just looked [53:24] better. [53:24] They just they looked more you just felt [53:26] more love they looked different. The [53:28] second we decided yes, this is it. Here [53:31] we go. We have committed. And then once [53:35] you bring people into your family, [53:37] anybody who's done this knows the huge [53:40] effect is you're dad or your mom. And [53:44] that's what matters. We will sometimes, [53:47] I don't know if your family has done [53:48] this, but I will sometimes very gently [53:50] note to people, they will sometimes talk [53:53] to me as a as another father of of my [53:56] kids and not my kids, right? As if the [53:58] biological and adopted children are [54:00] different. And I very [54:03] try to gently say, they are all our [54:05] children. And you don't you don't feel [54:07] differently. So, I think what's [54:08] interesting, not as if there is there [54:10] any subtle difference that's left is how [54:14] almost completely imperceptible or [54:16] completely imperceptible it actually is. [54:18] That's what makes us remarkable as human [54:20] beings, that we can do that. There is no [54:22] other species we know of that does that [54:24] kind of thing, that loves beyond their [54:26] kin in the way that we can. In fact, [54:29] it's led to a total reshaping in many [54:31] ways of the field of economics even. [54:33] Economists believe that humans are [54:35] fundamentally self-interested. They only [54:37] care about themselves. The only rub is [54:39] when you actually look at the data, [54:41] people are just a lot nicer to each [54:43] other than standard models of economics [54:45] would predict. We give money away to [54:47] charity. We give away kidneys to random [54:49] strangers. We care. Like if if if I give [54:52] you $10 in an experiment and tell you [54:56] you can divide it with another person [54:58] however you want, you can keep all of [54:59] it, give you know, give none of it, or [55:01] give it all away. [55:03] The standard prediction from economic [55:06] theory is you'll be purely [55:06] self-interested. You won't care anything [55:08] about this person you know nothing [55:09] about. You'll give them nothing. [55:11] That's not what real people do. [55:13] They give something. 30%, 50%, typically [55:16] depending on the context that you're in. [55:18] And that's the thing that I think is [55:20] remarkable in this particular case. Not [55:21] as there any any bit left of of the this [55:25] this biological hardwiring, but how much [55:27] of it is about the role that you play. [55:30] And how much our love for another, our [55:33] ability to connect with another person [55:35] is a function of the role that we play [55:37] in their lives. [55:38] Incredible example that the moment you [55:40] made the decision, you and your wife [55:42] made the decision that these were the [55:44] children you were going to adopt, that [55:45] they your visual perception of them [55:48] changed. [55:49] >> Yeah, it's almost like two circuits [55:50] emerged in that moment and and I [55:53] I can attest from a parallel experience [55:55] um [55:56] although I'm not the parent of this [55:57] family member that it you never go [55:59] there's it's a it's an instant and you [56:01] never go back. There's never a [56:03] reconsideration that you know And I [56:05] think some people assume that like well [56:06] in especially hard times, you know, it's [56:08] actually [56:10] it kind of just leaves the room. The [56:12] like the the question of of it's [56:14] immaterial. It's a fascinating and [56:15] reassuring aspect of of our brain [56:17] wiring. [56:17] >> Other people might imagine that you [56:18] think this it just doesn't. You just [56:20] you're [56:21] you're just parent. That's it. [56:23] Wild. [56:24] And very cool. It is very cool and I and [56:26] and and I think an underappreciated [56:29] aspect of our sociality is how much we [56:32] and and we often we kind of take it for [56:34] granted, you know, people are mean to [56:36] each other and so yeah, yeah, people can [56:37] be mean to each other, but we also love [56:40] each other [56:41] way beyond what we should in some way [56:45] based on just pure, you know, kinship [56:47] relationships and biological offspring [56:50] would predict we would. And that's [56:51] because [56:52] we're highly social. We got to cooperate [56:54] with each other in order to get along [56:56] successfully in life. And so we've got [56:57] these really hard uh hardwired kind of [57:00] circuitry to care and love and connect [57:02] with each with each other when we try. [57:04] What I'm about to describe might be [57:06] different now um but a good portion of [57:09] my family's in South America and I'll [57:11] never forget when I was in my really [57:13] like [57:14] late teens, early 20s, I went down there [57:17] and I I went out with my cousins to a [57:19] bar. It was like a club right there um [57:22] and it was so interesting because [57:24] they [57:25] spoke to their friends. We met up with [57:27] their friends there. People danced, [57:29] people drank, did all the things that we [57:31] were also doing back in [clears throat] [57:32] California. [57:33] But there was no [57:35] communication with other people at this [57:37] club or this bar that they didn't [57:39] already know. Oh. This may have changed. [57:41] How? But that then and there that the [57:45] culture was one where you go out with [57:47] the people you already know and you have [57:48] a really good time. But people weren't [57:51] exchanging numbers, hitting on people, [57:53] looking at other people cross It was [57:54] It's that there were these little [57:56] pockets across the room. So it wasn't [57:58] this idea that oh when you go out in [58:00] public, you go to a club or you drink or [58:01] something, you you might meet somebody [58:03] else. [58:03] >> Yeah. Interesting. There wasn't a fear [58:05] of other people. That wasn't the reason [58:06] you go out. You go out to see your [58:08] friends. [58:09] >> Yeah. And the interesting thing also was [58:10] that many of these friendships had been [58:12] lifelong friendships. Oh, yeah. So in [58:15] some sense, I wonder is this one version [58:19] of how humans evolved cuz we always [58:20] think about this village of like a [58:22] hundred people, you know, you um [58:24] you know, Bob Sapolsky talks about this [58:26] and you know, we we evolved in these [58:27] culture of a hundred or two hundred [58:28] folks and you knew everyone and [58:30] everyone's in each other's business and [58:32] that that's how our our species evolved. [58:34] At the same time what we we have [58:36] different examples of of sociality. [58:38] >> And that strangers weren't around as [58:40] much Yeah. [58:40] >> was the idea. Yeah. Yeah, it's it's hard [58:42] to say. I don't know. Certainly today, [58:45] if you look around the world, there is [58:47] and always has been some anxiety about [58:50] connecting with strangers and it can [58:51] vary depending on where you There's some [58:53] places where there's more sociability [58:55] than in others, but there's always been [58:56] some anxiety about the other. The one [58:58] you don't know, right? Cuz you don't [59:00] know necessarily if I can trust you or [59:02] not in this moment, whether that comes [59:04] from our evolutionary heritage or not or [59:07] just unfamiliarity with anything, right? [59:09] So if you know, if you give me something [59:10] to drink here, I don't know what's in [59:11] it. I'm going to be a little nervous. I [59:13] want to find out before I drink it. If I [59:15] trust you, I'll drink it, but if I [59:16] don't, you know, I'm not so sure. I'm [59:17] going to want to see what's in there [59:19] first. There's always some anxiety about [59:22] the unknown or uncertainty and it could [59:23] be a lot of stuff about strangers, a [59:26] reluctance to connect with other people, [59:27] a desire to keep with the folks we [59:29] already know, come simply from that, [59:31] right? Which Which also would apply to [59:33] non-human interactions, too, or [59:35] non-human objects, as well. We just like [59:37] what's familiar cuz we know it and and [59:39] we trust it and we're comfortable with [59:40] it as a result. Everything else, by [59:42] comparison, is a little bit riskier. I [59:44] can't say I'm particularly outgoing or [59:46] not, but I was taught manners [59:50] that had me ask how people's day was [59:52] going. Like if I'm checking out at the [59:54] grocery store, it's like, "How's your [59:55] day going?" And I'm interested. Like [59:57] it's not just an icebreaker or some [59:59] like, "How's your day going?" And you [60:00] hold the door for people, you say please [60:02] and thank you. I I think a lot of people [60:04] assume that manners equates to small [60:07] talk, equates to superficial, [60:11] and that it's all a bunch of fluff, that [60:13] it's not about deep connection. But when [60:15] I'm moving through the, you know, the [60:17] checkout line at Whole Foods, [60:20] I don't have a lot of options. [60:22] >> Yep. If I say nothing, okay, these days [60:25] no one would Yeah. notice. Yeah. They [60:27] could be on their phone. It would No one [60:29] would No one would call that abnormal. [60:30] If I say, "How's your day going?" and [60:31] they go, "Pretty good." Uh if I say, [60:33] "What did you do before you got here?" [60:35] That's That's getting a little bit [60:36] further down the line, right? Um if I [60:38] say like, "What's the hardest thing that [60:40] ever happened to you?" they're going to [60:41] look at me like I'm crazy, right? So, [60:43] what I wonder is when we talk about [60:46] manners and etiquette, which I believe [60:47] there's been a a real kind of erosion of [60:50] at the level of kind of what is [60:52] standard, right? Um for whatever reason. [60:55] We just don't have a an etiquette [60:56] everyone follows. All It used to be all [60:57] men wore jackets and ties or at least [60:59] ties to work. I mean, now you show up in [61:01] whatever, you're right? I do think that [61:03] as manners have [61:04] become less common or common manner [61:08] manners have become less common, that [61:10] the opportunities for casual, low-level [61:13] exchange have evaporated. Yeah. And so [61:16] there's less of a stepping stone to [61:20] deeper exchange. [61:21] >> Yeah. So, I would think about manners [61:23] kind of as habits, right? That's kind of [61:24] what they are. And the And some [61:26] sensibilities about about other people [61:28] being kind and decent to other people. [61:30] But, understanding how those manners [61:32] might be affecting day-to-day behaviors [61:34] is a little bit tricky. So, one of the [61:35] things, for instance, we find like in in [61:37] a lot of public spaces, people are [61:39] reluctant to engage with other people [61:40] because they don't want to interrupt. [61:41] They don't want to be impolite. There's [61:44] a version of that that is about manners, [61:47] right? And we have [61:49] some Sometimes we're getting signals of [61:51] that. Tech gives us signals that [61:54] somebody doesn't want to be bothered, [61:55] perhaps. Like we put earbuds in or we [61:57] look at our phone, right? And so, some [61:59] of that could be coming from what you [62:01] might think of as as manners. In the UK, [62:04] for instance, one of the reasons we we [62:06] find just Well, just this true in the [62:07] US, too, but even a little more so in [62:09] the UK, there's this normal politeness [62:11] that I It's not okay for me to get into [62:13] your business. In Japan, it's even [62:14] stronger, right? I don't want to And [62:16] that's seen as being polite, right? In [62:20] those contexts. [62:21] I'm with you, though, that this general [62:24] norm of saying hello or hi to people has [62:27] gotten diminished a little bit, in part [62:28] because people I think are getting out [62:30] of the habit because you got these [62:32] You've got these got these phones on you [62:34] all the time. But, I think I think it's [62:36] a little trickier. It's a little harder [62:38] to say, maybe, that manners have eroded [62:40] because they're complicated out in the [62:42] world. Stuff that looks like could be a [62:44] lack of manners in one context could, in [62:46] people's own minds, be No, I'm I'm being [62:49] polite to you. By not interrupting. It's [62:51] tricky. Yeah, I mean, I hear from a lot [62:54] of podcast listeners that that the [62:56] challenge is with, you know, finding a [62:58] romantic partner nowadays center largely [63:00] around people not wanting to be seen as [63:03] creepy, but also people not wanting [63:05] strangers to talk to them. So, there's a [63:07] little [63:08] We're in a little bit of an impasse [63:09] right now. I also hear from people who [63:11] wonder why [63:13] guys aren't asking them out just kind of [63:15] randomly or asking them for a coffee or [63:17] for a number or something like that. I [63:19] think there's a lot of fear right now, [63:20] is what I hear. Yes. And that fear is [63:23] probably well, it certainly is on both [63:25] sides. Yeah. You know, you said you had [63:27] a in-depth conversation with your Uber [63:29] driver on the way over here. [63:31] >> mean, I used to be that I would get into [63:34] deep conversations on airplanes. It [63:36] seems like we're we're stuck in this I [63:37] know cab situation. [63:38] >> out I did last night coming out to to [63:40] talk [63:40] >> The only downside being sometimes if [63:42] your neck is turned to one side, you can [63:45] get off that plane with a with a stiff [63:46] neck. But in all seriousness, so are you [63:50] one to just open up conversation with [63:53] people at random? Yeah. In part because [63:56] we got to we could go back a long way to [63:57] start but I'll start at the beginning of [63:59] our research but I'll keep this simple. [64:00] I've interpreted reaching out and [64:03] connecting with other people [64:04] differently. We find in our work that [64:05] people underestimate how interested [64:07] others are in engaging with them. So [64:09] you're sitting next to somebody on a [64:10] plane or on a train and people if you're [64:13] not already talking, you assume this [64:15] person doesn't want to talk to you but [64:17] that person is more likely to say [64:19] they're interested in talking to you [64:21] than you would guess. But if you got two [64:22] people that aren't talking to each [64:24] other, this gets back to our earlier [64:26] conversation, how I can use as [64:28] somebody's behavior as a guide to their [64:29] thoughts. In this case, making a [64:31] mistake, I can infer you're not [64:33] interested in talking to me. If you're [64:35] not, and you could be thinking, well, [64:38] Nick's not talking to me. He's not [64:39] interested in it either. We can both [64:40] then sit there, both be interested in [64:42] talking to each other but nobody's [64:44] saying a word cuz we misunderstand what [64:46] silence is like. Right? Or we assume [64:49] that people don't want to have [64:49] meaningful conversations when in fact [64:51] most people say that's actually what [64:53] they want. So I've adopted a different [64:55] way to think about manners here in a way [64:57] that I think attends more to both my own [65:00] well-being and the person who I'm [65:01] connecting with. I think about social [65:03] connection as an opportunity or an [65:05] invitation to connect with somebody. And [65:07] to your point about fear, we find over [65:09] and over again people are overly [65:10] pessimistic, overly afraid about how [65:13] positively other people will respond to [65:15] them when you reach out to them in a [65:17] positive way. So, like with the Uber [65:20] driver on the way here today, [65:23] I just he was Iranian. [65:25] I asked him, "How do you feel about the [65:27] war? Can you Can you tell me about it?" [65:29] And it was clear that I was not wanting [65:32] some superficial [65:34] response. I cared. I was taking an [65:36] interest in him. [65:38] And he recognized I was taking an [65:39] interest in him. [65:41] And he responded by taking an interest [65:43] then in me and feeling comfortable [65:45] sharing. And he I mean, he shared that [65:46] his [65:47] son died in a protest in Iran and that [65:50] he had been imprisoned in Iran. And [65:53] I mean, it was we were crying but [65:55] together at the end of that at the end [65:56] of that ride. It was 23 minutes to get [65:58] here. The fact that you're able to [65:59] connect for a short while, I'm assuming [66:01] you didn't exchange numbers. You're not [66:02] going to be in touch. Yeah. So, so the [66:04] point is not to create a lasting [66:06] relationship. The point is to connect. [66:09] >> that moment better. Yeah. I mean, and I [66:10] think actually this is a really [66:11] important way to rethink how you think [66:15] about well-being. [66:16] Well-being is not just about the [66:19] intense, you know, the the really [66:21] impactful moments in your life. [66:23] Happiness and well-being is a little [66:24] more like a leaky tire. Like you just [66:26] got to keep pumping it up cuz you adapt [66:27] to things, right? You You do go on this [66:29] amazing trip, you know, to out into the [66:32] beautiful Sonoran Desert or something, [66:34] right? And that's great. You come back [66:35] the next day and then you got traffic [66:37] coming to work and that sucks, right? [66:38] You're right back to where you were [66:39] before. It doesn't last. I mean, nothing [66:42] really lasts for that long. Well, [66:43] obviously relationships can last, but [66:45] but moments come and go, right? And what [66:47] that means, I think for our well-being, [66:50] is that we want to start paying [66:51] attention to creating good moments, [66:54] right? Positive moments that can lift us [66:55] up and the people around us as well. And [66:58] you can take I could have gone 23 [66:59] minutes here [67:01] to talk with you today and had a [67:02] perfectly boring ride. Or I could have [67:05] heard one of the most amazing stories [67:07] about somebody's life where he opens his [67:09] heart up to me in this car ride in 23 [67:12] minutes and made that 23 minutes way [67:14] better and connect with another human [67:15] being [67:16] more deeply than than you might imagine [67:19] would be possible in that short time. [67:20] And make that moment better. My day is [67:22] better because that moment was better. [67:24] And if you start thinking about [67:26] happiness and connection in terms of [67:29] moments rather than some sort of [67:31] illusion of some lasting long-term [67:33] impact, well, then you start seeing [67:35] opportunities to connect all over the [67:37] place, right? On my plane flight in last [67:39] night, did that, right? In the grocery [67:42] store, I'll start checking out. And you [67:43] got an opportunity, you know, I now keep [67:45] an eye out. I try I just pay attention. [67:47] I take an interest in other people. [67:50] The research that I've done here on [67:51] social connections fundamentally changed [67:53] the way that I live my life. I take an [67:54] interest in other people, so I notice [67:56] stuff that I didn't used to notice. I'll [67:58] throw out compliments, any kind thought [68:00] I will share with somebody. [68:02] I just don't have anxiety about that. [68:04] Keep moving on, all right? If If I'm [68:06] passing, I'll shout out. Like this [68:07] morning, I got breakfast at the hotel I [68:09] was at. [68:10] Guys wearing a killer hat, and I'm [68:12] walking by. Hey man, I love your hat. [68:13] That's awesome, right? And walk by. He [68:15] says, I love it, too, right? And I just [68:17] kept going, but that moment was a little [68:18] brighter, right? And what's a good day [68:21] if not to string along a few good [68:23] moments? And what's a good week if not [68:26] to string along a few days that have [68:27] some good moments in them? And what's a [68:29] good month? A good year? A good life. [68:31] It's about those moments. And we got [68:33] lots of those moments. And if we start [68:35] thinking about them in terms of [68:37] opportunities to connect, to be decent [68:39] to another person in a way that'll [68:41] really use the skill we have to connect [68:43] with other people instead of being held [68:45] back by misplaced fear, changes the way [68:48] you live your life. [68:50] I'd like to take a quick break and [68:51] acknowledge our sponsor, Function. [68:54] Function provides over 160 advanced lab [68:57] tests to give you a clear snapshot of [68:58] your bodily health. This snapshot gives [69:01] you insights into your heart health, [69:02] your hormone health, autoimmune [69:04] function, nutrient levels, and much [69:06] more. They've also recently added access [69:08] to advanced MRI and CT scans. Function [69:11] not only provides testing of over 160 [69:13] biomarkers key to your physical and [69:15] mental health, it also analyzes these [69:17] results and provides recommendations for [69:19] improving your health from top doctors. [69:22] For example, in a recent test with [69:23] Function, I learned that some of my [69:25] blood lipids were slightly out of range. [69:27] As a result, I decided to start [69:29] supplementing with nattokinase, which [69:31] can naturally help reduce LDL [69:33] cholesterol. And it did. In a follow-up [69:35] test, I could confirm that this strategy [69:37] worked. My blood lipids are now back [69:39] exactly where I want them. Comprehensive [69:41] lab testing of the sort that Function [69:42] offers is just so important for health. [69:45] I mean, how else are you going to know [69:46] what's going on under the hood? And [69:48] while I've been doing blood work for [69:49] years, it used to be time-consuming, [69:51] complicated, and expensive. In fact, I [69:53] used to spend thousands of dollars per [69:55] year trying to get this kind of data, [69:57] and the data, frankly, were not all that [69:59] good. But now with Function, it's [70:01] extremely easy and affordable. A [70:03] Function membership is only a dollar a [70:04] day, $365 a year. And if you think about [70:07] the information it provides, and the [70:09] health challenges it helps you avoid, [70:11] and the proactive things that it can do [70:13] for you to enhance your health, I truly [70:15] look at it as a savings. To learn more, [70:17] visit functionhealth.com/huberman [70:20] and use the code Huberman for a $50 [70:22] credit towards your membership. Again, [70:24] that's functionhealth.com/huberman. [70:28] Yeah, I'm listening to you and I'm [70:29] thinking uh [70:31] some of the best moments of my life, and [70:33] I've had many, many, are really at this [70:36] kind of level of in passing. Mhm. You [70:38] know, you mentioned that like, in my [70:39] mind I was saying like, never [70:40] underestimate the the good feeling that [70:42] comes from like a good fist bump with [70:44] someone that you exchange no words with. [70:45] >> You bet. [70:46] >> And I live in a very crowded area, and [70:48] so I don't go out much, but when I do, [70:50] occasionally you just pass someone on [70:51] the sidewalk, and you just like put out [70:53] a fist and like, and you feel a kinship. [70:55] >> Yeah. [70:55] >> Um the other day also um I have a very [70:58] niche but uh very deep relationship to a [71:01] certain genre music. So, this is like [71:03] walking down the [laughter] the [71:04] boardwalk and someone goes someone like [71:06] shouted out. I was wearing a minor [71:08] threat shirt. I'm a big Ian MacKaye fan [71:09] minor threat Fugazi and someone goes [71:11] minor threat and I go minor threat. I [71:13] don't even know where they were. You [71:15] know, and so like and like they I mean [71:17] you know, it's a you know, I'm dating [71:19] myself here by by saying that but I [71:20] still amazing band right no matter how [71:22] old you are check it out. [71:24] But [71:25] you know, you feel a kinship to other [71:28] members of your species that way. I [71:30] don't know who these people are. It's [71:31] interesting. It is a whole other level [71:34] of human connection that I hadn't [71:35] thought of and as with manners and [71:37] etiquette and that kind of superficial [71:39] small talk piece. I kind of assumed that [71:41] that this stuff didn't matter that it [71:43] was kind of like well, okay, that's like [71:46] that's not nourishment. That's not a [71:48] that's not a nice like elk steak or [71:50] beautiful vegetable spread. That's the [71:53] that's like a that's like a cracker. [71:55] Yeah. You know, but the comparison isn't [71:57] fair because ultimately like you said [72:00] our life is a series of moments and the [72:03] feeling that our species has a kinship [72:05] that isn't based on anything else. There [72:07] was no exchange of money or [72:09] opportunities or any of that is is [72:12] pretty awesome. [72:13] >> that we're connected. We're in this [72:14] together in some way. There's a there's [72:16] a hypothesis that many of my PhD [72:19] students and postdocs over the years [72:20] have suggested that we've talked about [72:22] but we have never figured out a way to [72:24] actually test it but some sense that [72:27] when you interact with [72:29] with a stranger a member of a group of [72:31] some kind [72:33] but a stranger is a good example. It [72:35] doesn't just make you feel connected to [72:36] that person. It kind of changes your [72:39] sense of connection to like the entire [72:42] group. Like you just feel a little [72:42] better about humanity when you see that [72:45] moment. Like you deliver a compliment to [72:47] somebody. I was walking down the [72:48] sidewalk [72:49] um, just a little bit ago on my way to [72:51] the train, there was a woman standing [72:54] next to a car, and she just had these [72:56] awesome red glasses on. They just looked [72:58] fabulous. And I said to her, when we're [73:00] going by, [73:01] "I love those glasses. You are killing [73:03] it today." [73:05] And she took them off. [73:07] Almost it I it didn't she wasn't going [73:09] to cry, but she she stopped and she [73:11] said, "Thank you so much for telling me [73:13] that. I really needed that today." Mhm. [73:15] Right? I I I had met her in a moment [73:17] where she had a bad day. And my sense is [73:18] she just felt uplifted just like by [73:21] people in general, by the world, just [73:23] had a more favorable view of what the [73:25] world was like, a different view of what [73:27] human nature was like in that moment [73:29] >> Mhm. than you otherwise would have had. [73:31] Yesterday on my train ride into [73:33] University of Chicago before I got on a [73:35] flight to come here to see you. Sit down [73:37] next to a young man on the train. He's [73:39] got his earbuds in, looking at his [73:40] phone, you know, easy stereotype, young [73:43] man disconnected from the world. [73:46] I sit down. I said I sat right next to [73:48] him. I said I said hi, reached out "I'm [73:50] Nick" to shake a hand. He he came back [73:52] with a fist bump rather than a [73:53] handshake. But then he took out his [73:55] right earbud. [73:56] And I started to talk to him. I said, [73:58] "You know, what are what are you up to [73:58] today? Where are you Where are you Where [73:59] are you going into town for?" And he [74:00] said, "Well, I'm I'm going to this [74:02] culinary program [74:03] downtown." And what was so crystal clear [74:06] right away was how proud he was that he [74:08] was doing this. He'd come from LA, [74:10] actually, and he was just start getting [74:12] into this training program, this trade [74:14] school to get him into this culinary [74:16] union where he's going to work as a chef [74:17] for maybe for a hotel or a big [74:19] restaurant. He pulled out his book, uh [74:21] his little three-ring binder that had [74:24] his lessons for it. I actually took a [74:25] picture of it. I have a I have a son [74:27] who's entering a trade program right [74:28] now. Uh I've never seen him happier in [74:30] his life than when he's doing this. And [74:32] he was flipping through, showing me what [74:33] they were doing today. [74:35] He was just so proud of what he was [74:37] doing, so ready to talk with me about [74:38] this. His name was Gustavo. Um [74:41] delightful young man. And I remember [74:43] leaving that conversation just like a [74:45] feeling better about about my kids. It's [74:48] just about kids in general. Like here's [74:50] a kid who's really trying to make it and [74:52] that felt good. Not just about this [74:54] young man Gustavo who I felt fortunate [74:56] to spend 30 minutes that made that 30 [74:58] minutes much better. But kind of [74:59] uplifting about the entire category that [75:02] he was from. [75:04] And what's interesting is how easy it is [75:05] to your point about manners say to avoid [75:08] that out of fear. He doesn't want to [75:10] talk to me. Not that interested in [75:12] having a meaningful conversation. He [75:14] doesn't want to go there, right? [75:17] But in fact, that's the thing we're all [75:18] dying for. It's super interesting. I'd [75:20] never thought about this aspect of [75:22] social dynamics. Um yes, manners. Um [75:26] both my parents are very polite. They [75:28] taught us to be polite. My my girlfriend [75:30] comes from the south, so she's like very [75:32] polite. Like manners are like a big [75:33] thing. [75:34] And she's a genuinely kind person. [75:36] That's why I think people hear like [75:37] manners and kindness and they think oh [75:39] like it's it's fake, but it's not. It's [75:41] it's a it's a real it's it's part of the [75:43] the social fabric, right? Not that I'm [75:46] the data point that matters, but I [75:47] assure anyone who aspires to be a [75:49] public-facing person, the thing you give [75:51] up when you're a public-facing person is [75:54] this. Oh, really? [75:55] >> Yeah, it's interesting. And and it's a [75:57] And for somebody like me, [75:59] it you know, it's it's compensated for [76:01] by the other things you gain, right? But [76:03] but that disappears, right? [76:06] Not with everyone, right? But it [76:08] disappears. And so I'm as you're saying [76:09] this, I actually realize I like have a [76:11] little bit of nostalgia about like just [76:13] being able to like go out and interact [76:14] with people. And sometimes it happens, [76:15] but a lot of times it things revert back [76:18] to to the podcast or things like that, [76:20] which I really love. I love it when [76:21] people roll up and have questions and [76:22] everyone knows me that like I'll give a [76:24] podcast right there. If someone has a [76:25] question, I'm going to give an answer. [76:27] >> Sit down for 2 hours, please. [76:28] >> Well, I'm going to I always I mean, I'm [76:29] genuinely interested in them. I'll be [76:31] like, "Where are you from? What's your [76:32] name?" I'm genuinely interested. I'm not [76:33] asking it like to deflect. I'm really [76:35] interested. Um but the the anonymous [76:39] brief exchange that reinforces [76:43] our and their understanding. It's not [76:46] like a belief, it's like an [76:47] understanding, it's a feeling that like [76:49] we're part of the same species and like [76:51] you know, that is a an incredibly [76:54] powerful and reinforcing thing. I think, [76:57] I mean especially for me, I'm very [76:58] affiliative. I I can't imagine and I'll [77:00] I'll just table this possibility that [77:02] there are some people who are not as [77:04] affiliative. You know, I I know one or [77:06] two people whose names I won't mention [77:08] who don't really It's not that [77:11] people but unless it's their family, [77:13] they're they're not really interested in [77:15] other people. They're just not and I [77:16] can't say that they're unhappy. They [77:18] like their family, they like their [77:19] books, they like their movies and we [77:21] could say that they would be better off [77:23] if they you know, [77:25] were different but they don't seem to [77:26] really [77:28] like other people. They don't dislike [77:31] them but they've got their people and [77:32] then there's everyone else. [77:34] And the idea that like they would [77:36] interact with these other people except [77:38] in you know, professional circumstances, [77:40] I think to them is kind of foreign but [77:43] I'm making a lot of assumptions here, [77:44] too. So you can find situations where [77:47] everybody seems to act that way, right? [77:49] Like on my train coming into Chicago [77:51] every morning where nobody's talking [77:52] with each other. Looks like nobody cares [77:54] about other people, they don't have any [77:55] interest in talking to other people. In [77:57] those kinds of situations when you ask [77:59] people to connect with somebody else [78:03] everybody kind of gets lifted up. [78:05] If you look across say introversion and [78:07] extroversion, a common hypothesis is [78:09] that extroverts get their energy and [78:12] their enjoyment from connecting with [78:14] other people whereas folks who are more [78:15] introverted get their energy and [78:18] enjoyment from keeping to themselves, [78:19] right? That's what they want. The data [78:21] just don't support that. [78:23] So this we've known for a long time. [78:26] So extroversion is correlated with [78:28] well-being, with happiness. [78:31] Going back to 1980, one of the very [78:32] first papers that ever one of the very [78:34] first studies Is ever tested is [78:35] personality related to well-being? An [78:38] easy hypothesis is no, it's not. It [78:40] can't be because, right, people get what [78:42] they want out of their lives, right? And [78:43] everybody's equally happy because, you [78:45] know, extroverts connect with other [78:46] people, they reach out, they care about [78:48] other people. Introverts don't care as [78:49] much about other people or they they [78:51] have other preferences, they keep to [78:52] themselves or have deeper, meaningful [78:54] conversations, right? But everybody's [78:55] getting what they want. So, [78:57] theoretically, there should be no [78:58] correlation at all between personality [79:01] and well-being. And that just isn't [79:02] true. [79:04] Correlation between happiness, positive [79:06] affect day-to-day, and extraversion is [79:09] .5. [79:11] That's huge. That is big. That's like [79:13] the correlation between the heights of [79:14] fathers and sons. That is a big [79:16] correlation, right? It's a little weaker [79:18] with things like satisfaction with life, [79:20] it's a little more like .3, but that [79:22] correlation is big and it shows up [79:24] around the world, right? [79:26] In 1996, Ed Diener, one of the founding [79:29] figures in in the science of happiness [79:32] or or well-being, stated, you know, the [79:34] foundational result in personality [79:36] science is that extraversion is [79:38] correlated with well-being or happiness. [79:40] The more outgoing and extroverted you [79:41] are, the more you connect with others, [79:43] the happier you are. [79:44] Lots of reasons why that could be. [79:46] There's a third variable. Maybe [79:47] extroverts are just happier than [79:48] introverts to begin with, say. [79:51] But it raises question. Maybe it's [79:52] something about how they're the choices [79:54] they're making, the habits they're [79:56] developing, how they're actually [79:57] behaving. And so, that makes it easy [80:00] prediction that, well, [80:03] what happens if we just ask people [80:05] to reach out and connect more with other [80:07] people, to act a little more [80:08] extroverted? [80:09] Does it affect their well-being? And [80:10] could this be like a well-being [80:12] intervention? And it turns out it is. [80:15] Will Fleeson, a psychologist at Wake [80:17] Forest University, was one of the very [80:18] first people to do this. Half-hour lab [80:20] study, asked people to act more [80:21] extroverted or more introverted. When [80:23] people acted more extroverted, they [80:25] reported feeling more positive in that [80:28] experiment. When you ask people to act [80:29] more introverted, they felt less [80:31] positive, regardless of where they fell [80:33] on this personality scale to begin with. [80:36] Over the course of a person's day, [80:37] extroverts and introverts report feeling [80:39] better alike when they're spending time [80:41] with other people than when they're with [80:43] than when they're alone. You ask both to [80:45] spend more time connecting with other [80:47] people being extroverted over the course [80:48] of a day, a week, or more. Sonia [80:50] Lyubomirsky, [80:52] uh psychology professor at UC Riverside, [80:54] has done has done some of the best [80:55] research on this. Over the course of 2 [80:57] weeks, you shift the well the positive [80:59] affect meter up across the entire [81:01] extroversion scale [81:03] when people are connecting with others [81:05] compared to when they're acting [81:06] introverted. I think [snorts] what [81:08] differs here between the folks you're [81:09] describing who don't seem to get along [81:11] well with others or like other people or [81:13] don't seem to care as much about other [81:14] people and folks who who do are the [81:16] habits [snorts] that they have [81:17] developed. A little like exercise, I [81:19] think is the way to think about it. Some [81:20] of us choose to exercise a lot. Uh you [81:23] choose to exercise a lot, clearly. I [81:25] don't like [81:26] >> [laughter] [81:26] >> But you're a former athlete. You played [81:28] you played football and you wrestled. I [81:30] played basketball. I played basketball [81:32] and football. Yeah, no, I avoided [81:33] wrestling cuz I wanted my ears to keep [81:35] looking good. [81:37] >> Um yeah, but you know, I struggle to [81:39] find the time for it. So I I I don't [81:40] choose to exercise as much as I should [81:42] now, right? But we all would feel better [81:44] if we exercised a little more regardless [81:46] of what our habits are. So what the data [81:49] on this suggests is that [81:51] yeah, people [81:53] open themselves up a little bit more to [81:54] other people, try to reach out and [81:56] connect in positive ways with other [81:57] people, the porcupines in our lives are [81:59] not making themselves happier by keeping [82:02] their quills out and keeping to [82:03] themselves. [82:04] They're not living quite as good a life [82:06] as they as they could live if they chose [82:09] to live a little differently. Now, [82:10] whether they choose to or not, right? [82:11] Whether you exercise or not is not like [82:13] a necessarily a moral virtue. Somebody [82:15] doesn't exercise, you can't say you have [82:17] to exercise. But if you wanted to lift [82:19] your life up a little bit, [82:21] reach out and engage a little more often [82:23] is what the data suggests regardless of [82:24] where you are on that spectrum. [82:26] I realize it's not your specific area of [82:29] work, but what about for people with [82:30] social anxiety? Yeah. I mean, my first [82:33] impulse is to say, as long as you have [82:34] the resources and the time, get a dog. [82:38] You know, I'm not a big fan of dog parks [82:40] for all sorts of health reasons. And but [82:42] when I lived in San Diego, like I would [82:44] take my bulldog mastiff puppy to dog [82:46] park. I made lots of friends. He made [82:48] friends. And a dog is better than [82:50] bumming a cigarette, which nobody does [82:51] anymore, right? Met tons of people that [82:53] way. So, what's interesting about that [82:55] is that that that creates like an excuse [82:57] to have a conversation. Right. Like the [82:59] Well, no one I'm not suggesting anyone [83:01] do this, but in the old days, like you [83:02] you would you would ask for a cigarette. [83:03] You And you would then smoke side Then [83:05] you would smoke side by side with [83:07] somebody and you'd talk. And sometimes [83:10] there was a a romantic interest, [83:11] sometimes it was just a [83:13] a friendly interest, but you shared a [83:14] brief experience. You [83:16] >> got some nicotine in your system, which [83:18] no doubt affected [83:19] >> they gave something to you, right? So, [83:20] they they shared resources with you. And [83:22] so, there's trust that's being Yeah, [83:23] that was a very common [83:25] mode of exchange um until about People [83:28] really stopped doing that kind of in the [83:30] mid '90s is when smoking really dropped [83:32] off. So, what's interesting about that, [83:33] I think those tokens, the dog or the [83:35] cigarette, are serving to work our way [83:39] around our anxiety a little bit that we [83:40] have about connecting with other people. [83:42] I don't think they're necessary. [83:43] Right? They're not necessary, but they [83:45] do help to get around that anxiety. But [83:47] to to to people who have social anxiety, [83:50] it's it's a it's a painful thing, of [83:51] course, and it's hard. We all have it to [83:53] some extent. We're nervous about [83:54] reaching out and engaging with other [83:56] people in varying degrees. Some of that [83:58] just being a function of how often we do [84:00] it. When I was in graduate school, for [84:01] instance, I I was terrified of public [84:03] speaking. Before my first Before my [84:05] first job interview, which is my fourth [84:07] year of graduate school at Princeton, I [84:08] got super lucky to get this job [84:10] interview. I was terrified. Mhm. [84:13] Terrified. My job You seem so facile [84:15] with with it now. [84:16] >> Now I am. Yeah. Now I am, right? This is [84:18] 25 years of practice and experience and [84:20] exposure. And if you have social anxiety [84:23] disorder and you want to take care of [84:24] that, this is something psychologist [84:26] clinicians can really take care of. [84:28] There are lots of things that a [84:29] psychologist we can't really deal with [84:32] behaviorally. Social anxiety is [84:33] something we really can help people [84:35] with. For um for this book uh a little [84:38] more social that I that I just wrote um [84:41] I had a conversation with the guy who is [84:43] responsible for really developing [84:44] exposure therapy to treat anxiety [84:47] disorder. Stefan Hofmann is his name. [84:49] And essentially the the the strategy is [84:53] very simple. If you are afraid of [84:55] talking with a stranger or having a deep [84:57] conversation, the way to get over that [84:59] is not to simulate it or to imagine. [85:01] It's not like you get up and you you [85:03] give a pretend speech. That's what [85:04] psychologists were doing for years. It [85:06] doesn't work because it's still [85:07] pretending. It's you're not a real [85:09] audience. It has to be real. And that [85:11] was Stefan Hofmann's real [85:14] uh innovation. [85:15] Is you send people out in the world and [85:17] to do the thing for real. [85:19] You're worried about getting rejected. [85:21] Go out and start asking people for help [85:23] and you'll learn that your fear is [85:25] misplaced, that you get accepted more [85:27] often than you might guess. Exposing [85:29] people to that thing that they are [85:31] anxious of, when the belief is [85:33] misplaced, and with social anxiety it is [85:36] usually wildly misplaced. That's what we [85:38] find over and over again. It's a [85:40] mistaken barrier to connecting with [85:41] other people. [85:43] That then that's how you you ease that [85:45] social anxiety and get rid of it. Now, [85:46] exposure therapy doesn't work for [85:48] everything. If you're afraid of bullets, [85:49] right? You're afraid of getting shot by [85:50] bullets, right? Repeated exposure to [85:52] being shot by bullets is not going to [85:54] make you less afraid of that. That's [85:55] going to be one trial learning and [85:56] that's going to be the end of it. But [85:58] when your fears are misplaced, like it [86:00] is with social stuff, exposure is what [86:03] is what takes care of it. Not because [86:05] you do you dull your anxiety so much. [86:08] It's because you change your beliefs [86:11] about what other people are like. You [86:12] learn, "Oh, wait. [86:14] Other people are nicer than I think. [86:15] When I say hi to somebody, they tend to [86:18] say hi back. [86:19] When I take an interest in somebody, [86:20] they tend to say take an interest in me. [86:22] When I ask somebody for a cigarette, [86:24] they and they have one, they tend to [86:25] give me one when I ask for it. And makes [86:27] us nice conversation. Changes your [86:29] beliefs. That's why exposure therapy [86:30] works. That's really interesting and [86:33] a bit surprising. I completely believe [86:35] it as you say it, but that exposure [86:38] therapy doesn't reduce your anxiety per [86:41] se, it changes your beliefs about how [86:42] other people are going to react. [86:44] >> Yeah. Which indirectly [86:45] >> Yeah. feeds back and [86:47] >> Yeah. changes how you feel. [86:49] >> give you a story about somebody who I [86:50] got connected to a little bit while I [86:51] was writing this book. Jia Jiang is his [86:54] name. And Jia [86:55] uh lives up in the Bay Area, well, at [86:57] least he did at the time. I I think [86:58] that's still where he is. He was a He [87:00] was an aspiring entrepreneur. You can [87:02] find him at rejectiontherapy.com, [87:04] which is a website where he put this uh [87:06] together. He's got all these videos, [87:07] they're amazing. He decided he was an [87:08] aspiring entrepreneur and he [87:11] uh but he was afraid of rejection. And [87:15] he decided he was going to cure himself [87:18] of this fear of rejection by subjecting [87:21] himself to exposure therapy. He heard of [87:22] this that you do this for a month, [87:24] right? This Stefan Stefan Hofmann work. [87:26] You're going to He's going to try to to [87:28] make some outlandish request every day [87:30] for a month and get rejected every day. [87:32] But because his anxiety was so bad, he [87:34] needed more than a month. He needed 100 [87:35] days. So, he was 100 days in a row, he [87:38] was going to ask somebody some ludicrous [87:40] request so that he would get rejected [87:42] and then he was going to develop thick [87:43] skin, right? He was going to become [87:45] immune to rejection cuz he's going to [87:46] toughen himself up. He was going to [87:47] desensitize himself, okay? [87:50] First day he goes up to a security [87:51] guard. And he videotapes all these, so [87:52] you can find these online, they're [87:53] they're beautiful. Uh [87:55] he goes up to somebody at a bank, like a [87:57] security guard outside of a bank, and he [87:59] asks him, "Can I borrow $100 from you?" [88:02] And the security guard says, "Uh I'm [88:04] That's That's not how this works, [88:06] buddy." Uh and and so Jia walks away. [88:09] Ah, success. I got rejected. But then he [88:11] says, [88:12] "But it actually wasn't that bad." [88:14] Right? He thought the rejection was [88:15] going to be harsh, right? Middle fingers [88:17] blazing, swear words coming, somebody [88:20] punch him in the face, whatever. He [88:21] thought it was going to be harsh. [88:23] It wasn't that bad. [88:24] By the third day, he starts to fail. He [88:27] goes into a Krispy Kreme donut store in [88:30] Atlanta. [88:31] Goes up to the desk. Woman named Jackie [88:33] Brown is kind of managing the shift [88:36] there that day. She comes up and he he [88:37] comes to the counter and he says, [88:39] "Can I get [88:42] Krispy Kreme donuts in the shape of the [88:44] Olympic rings? Shape and color of the [88:46] Olympic rings, right?" And he's [88:47] thinking, "Oh, they're going to say, uh, [88:48] we don't do that here." Um, and instead, [88:51] Jackie sits down, gets in her thinker [88:53] pose, and starts drawing on a piece of [88:55] paper what the Olympic rings are. What [88:57] colors are they? We don't know. They're [88:58] trying to figure this out. So, just wait [89:00] a minute. He goes Jiago goes and sits [89:02] down. 15 minutes later, she comes out [89:04] with a box of donuts, a little [89:05] sheepishly, cuz she thought she could [89:07] have done better. [89:09] And there are these Olympic rings that [89:10] are amazing. The voiceover on his video [89:12] is something to the effect of, "And this [89:14] is why humanity is worth saving." [89:17] Over the course of his 100 days, he [89:18] doubles up a few days. He ends up with [89:20] like 106 requests. We, Don Lyons, who [89:22] was my lab manager at the time, [89:24] uh, went through and evaluated all of [89:26] those requests that he posted. And we [89:28] just asked, "How often was he actually [89:30] rejected?" [89:31] Walks up to a house in Texas and asks [89:34] the guy at the house, "Would you take a [89:36] picture of me playing soccer in your [89:37] backyard?" [89:40] Yes is the answer. There he's playing [89:42] soccer. He walks up to a Southwest [89:43] Airlines gate. He's getting on the [89:44] plane. He says, "Can I do the security [89:47] briefing at the beginning?" He says, [89:49] "Well, you can't do that, but you can [89:50] address the entire plane if you want." [89:51] So, there he is standing in front of the [89:52] entire plane, addressing this plane, [89:55] right? He, um, he goes to another [89:57] airport, a private airport. Never flown [89:59] a plane in his life. He asks, [90:00] "Can I co-pilot a plane?" [90:03] Right? Can I do that? Yeah, he does. He [90:04] gets it done, right? Walks up to a [90:06] woman's house. He's got a potted rose, [90:07] pink rose. Can I plant this in your [90:09] front yard? Oh, I love roses, you bet. [90:12] Put it right there. [90:13] He actually is rejected less often than [90:16] he is accepted. And we coded the videos [90:18] for how negative they are. [90:20] Mostly not negative at all. Only about [90:22] seven out of those 100 times is there [90:23] any negativity whatsoever. And if [90:25] anything it's just slight. Sometimes [90:26] people can't do it, right? So, so he's [90:28] he's he's accepted 51 times if I [90:31] remember right and rejected 48 times. [90:33] And then there are a few where they are [90:34] and be ambiguous where he can't do the [90:36] thing he asked for but they do something [90:37] else. [90:38] Um [90:39] but out of all those only a few times is [90:40] there any negativity. When I was talking [90:42] to him about this, [90:43] he said, "I went into this thinking I [90:45] was going to develop thicker skin. I [90:47] lost my fear of rejection. [90:49] But it was because I changed how I think [90:51] about other people. Other people are way [90:53] kinder than I expect." And he talked [90:55] about this now, this belief he is he has [90:58] as being a kind of superpower. [91:00] Cuz he realizes that [91:02] if you ask people for help, [91:04] they're much more interested in trying [91:06] to help you than you'd imagine. [91:07] That's why exposure to mistaken beliefs [91:11] like our social anxiety works cuz you [91:12] learn that your beliefs are wrong. [91:15] But if you never test them, [91:16] you never find out you'd be wrong. [91:18] How persistent was he? For instance, if [91:21] he asked a question and the person said, [91:23] "Listen, you can't come over my backyard [91:25] and play soccer, [91:27] but maybe the front yard." Would he say [91:29] backyard, please? Or if they said no [91:32] outright? You know, he won't Would he [91:33] push? [91:34] He wasn't that persistent in these [91:36] things. And this Jia's experience is [91:40] very consistent with what we find in the [91:42] research literature as well. There's a [91:43] phenomena Frank Flynn and Vanessa Bones. [91:45] Frank's is at is at Stanford, Vanessa's [91:48] at Cornell, both fabulous researchers, [91:50] documented this phenomena known as the [91:52] underestimation of compliance effect, [91:54] which is [91:55] you ask people to predict what [91:57] percentage of people or how many people [91:59] will agree to some request and the very [92:01] robust tendency is that they they [92:04] overestimate how many people they'll [92:05] have to ask in order to get some number [92:07] to agree to a request. People are just [92:09] much more likely to agree than you [92:10] think. We find in our research that not [92:13] only are they more willing to agree to [92:14] the request, they also feel much better [92:17] when they agree to help you than you [92:19] would guess. You ask somebody to take a [92:21] picture of you down along the boardwalk [92:23] on in LA, right? You think you're you're [92:25] you're you're you're pestering somebody, [92:26] right? You're being a burden to them. [92:28] They're usually happier to have helped [92:30] you because we are happier when we are [92:32] being kind to other people. So so Gia's [92:35] result is consistent with all of this [92:37] work. In his videos he was not that [92:39] persistent, but he would often accept [92:41] other alternatives. So he goes into [92:42] Costco one time. Goes up to the manager [92:45] and says, "I love Costco. It's just my [92:47] favorite store. Can I go on the intercom [92:49] and tell the entire store how much I [92:52] love Costco and how fabulous I think you [92:54] all are?" And the manager says, "Well, I [92:56] can't let you do that, but we can go get [92:58] lunch over here at the you know, the [93:00] pizza shop that's in Costco and we can [93:02] spend some time talking." And so he cops [93:04] him a lunch and then he gets a free [93:05] lunch out of it, that's what he that's [93:07] what he does. So there were a few and [93:08] like on the Southwest Airlines thing, he [93:10] couldn't he couldn't do the security [93:12] briefing. [93:13] But he could just address the whole [93:15] plane flight, which is what he did, [93:17] right? So he would accept those those [93:20] and those were the few cases where it [93:21] wasn't outright accepted, but if he got [93:23] a no, he said thank you and that was it. [93:25] I don't want to give anyone social [93:26] anxiety cuz you just provided a [93:28] wonderful uh or I don't want to [93:31] discourage anyone from uh from doing [93:33] what you just described cuz it's a it's [93:35] a really both entertaining and beautiful [93:38] example of the goodness of humanity [93:40] um really being a fundamental feature of [93:43] of most [93:44] >> surprisingly. So it's not the case that [93:46] everybody's always No, of course not, [93:47] but it tends to go He thought he'd be [93:49] rejected 100 days in a row. [93:51] He wasn't. You have data, I just have an [93:53] anecdote. Um so the fact that I'm going [93:56] to tell you that uh it [93:57] a piece of the that anecdote comes from [93:59] a neurologist does not mean it has any [94:01] more validity than and it [94:03] maybe even less. That was a joke against [94:05] my neurology. I have great jokes about [94:06] neurologists, by the way. I could do an [94:08] entire podcast about the jokes against [94:10] the different divisions of medicine. [94:11] Maybe I'll do that sometime. We should [94:12] do that, Rob. The [94:15] So, I had a post doc advisor. [94:16] Unfortunately, he passed, but that's not [94:18] the point here. Uh he was a neurologist [94:20] and he was an extremely friendly person. [94:23] His name was Ben Barres. He used to walk [94:24] down the hall. He'd say, "Hi to the [94:25] janitors." He'd say He was always a very [94:27] good about bringing things to the the [94:29] admins up front. You and I both know [94:31] they are underpaid at at all [94:33] universities. They are truly People [94:34] always say, "The oh all the the [94:35] administrators." Like, well, you got [94:36] high-level administrators. I'm not going [94:38] to comment on what they make. I don't [94:39] know. Um but but all the administrators [94:42] at the level of like the front office, [94:43] etc., they're underpaid, they're [94:45] overworked. And he was just an extremely [94:46] kind person. He was just very outgoing [94:49] and um but he was a neurologist [94:52] in addition to being a scientist. And he [94:54] pointed something out, which was that [94:56] there would be some people who would um [94:58] that he would interact with on campus. [95:00] And we were adjacent to the the [95:02] hospital, so this plays in. Who he'd be [95:04] friendly to. Like, "Hey, how's it [95:05] going?" And they'd say, "Hey, what do [95:06] you do here?" And he'd say, "Oh, well, [95:07] we work on neuronal glial interactions, [95:09] activity-dependent development of [95:10] myelination." And they'd go, "Oh, cool. [95:12] Like, what's that?" And you'd have a [95:13] little exchange and then move on. Great. [95:15] Healthy. They're learning. They realize [95:17] academics aren't just trying to, you [95:19] know, hide their information, no matter [95:20] how busy they are. Somebody just taking [95:22] time out of their busy pace to stop and [95:24] have an interaction with you. This is [95:26] something that I grew up observing in my [95:29] mom and it's something that I just [95:30] naturally do and and enjoy. So, it's a [95:32] lot of what you described before. [95:34] But I'll never forget Ben once telling [95:36] me. He said, [95:38] "See this guy coming down the hall? [95:40] He's sticky." And I said, "What's [95:42] sticky?" And he said, "That's [95:43] neurologist speak for the person that [95:45] takes that kind of casual exchange [95:48] and makes the assumption that you're a [95:49] lot closer than you actually are." [95:51] >> Yeah. And as somebody with a sister, you [95:53] know, you grow up hearing stories of [95:54] like, you know, you hear through the [95:56] wall, you know, like, oh, some like, you [95:58] know, good-looking guy asked for a [95:59] number, you're excited about that, but [96:01] some other guy, like, he was pretty [96:02] persistent and like he wouldn't go away. [96:04] We're not talking about full stalker [96:05] situation. That exists, too. [96:07] >> Yep. So, I think a lot of social anxiety [96:11] comes from [96:13] some people just don't know [96:15] where the line is between normal, [96:18] healthy, casual social exchange and [96:21] being too sticky. [96:22] >> And this takes us back to the eyes. I'll [96:25] never forget freshman year of college, [96:26] forgive me for weaving in a second [96:27] anecdote. I had a roommate, we were [96:29] triple room, but I had a roommate, and [96:32] feedback from people around us, they're [96:34] like, what's wrong with your roommate? [96:36] I'm like, what do you mean? He's like a [96:36] perfectly nice guy. Like, he's super [96:38] nice and they're like, [96:39] no, he stares at people. And I thought, [96:42] oh, and he's he was very, very tall, you [96:44] know, and I'm reasonably tall, but he's [96:45] like really, really tall. And so, I [96:46] started noticing when we would stand in [96:47] groups, he would just like beam people. [96:49] Mhm. [96:49] >> So, I pulled him aside and I said, hey, [96:51] listen, [96:52] Dave, um, you can't stare at people. He [96:55] goes, I'm just looking at them. And I'm [96:57] like, I know, but you can't stare at [96:58] people. You're creeping people out. And [97:00] he goes, [97:01] >> okay, where should I look? Now, he might [97:02] have been a little bit on the spectrum, [97:04] I don't know. We didn't have that [97:05] language or understanding of spectrum [97:06] back then. [97:07] >> But I explained to him, I was like, just [97:09] keep your gaze moving Yeah. [97:11] >> [laughter] [97:12] >> And and we all loved him. Like, and he [97:13] became part of our social circle, but in [97:15] those first weeks of, you know, he was a [97:17] little bit he was make he was giving [97:18] people Yeah. an uneasy feeling. So, I [97:21] think for a lot of people who have [97:23] social anxiety, [97:24] their concern is that they're going to [97:26] be perceived as kind of creepy or [97:28] sticky, and no one wants to be that [97:30] person. [97:30] >> Right. Yep. And so, it is an art. Yep. [97:33] It is a a learning to understand that [97:37] like a fist bump is one thing, but just [97:39] because you see that person again the [97:41] next day, you remember their name, [97:42] you're not best friends. [97:44] >> Yes. And you're not even really friends, [97:46] you're being friendly. [97:47] >> Right. And I I I'm not trying to [97:49] contaminate the the the positive waters [97:51] here, but I think [97:53] >> a lot of people don't know how to [97:54] develop this skill as a as a honed [97:56] skill. Yes. And they're really afraid. [97:58] And I think it's not about like get you [98:00] know someone calling the police because [98:02] someone is being too sticky, but [98:03] >> Yes. yeah, like if somebody doesn't call [98:04] you back, like [98:06] they probably don't want you to ping [98:07] them a third time. [98:09] >> Right. Right? Or text you again. And And [98:10] I think a lot of it always seems to to [98:13] sort of immediately deflect to like men [98:15] doing this to women. I can tell you a [98:16] lot of women do this, too. So, it's it's [98:18] independent of sex, right? [98:19] >> Yeah. If somebody doesn't respond a [98:21] third time and it was a first time [98:22] meeting and [98:23] regardless of what the exchange was, [98:26] translation, they don't want to continue [98:28] the exchange for whatever reason. [98:29] >> And so, how how do you reconcile that in [98:31] when giving advice for people to be more [98:33] outgoing? How do you keep people from [98:34] being sticky? I guess there's another [98:36] way to think about, too, is that is that [98:38] some a lot of sensitivity or concern [98:40] about um social anxiety is about running [98:44] into sticky people. And there I think [98:45] there probably is a gender difference, a [98:47] sex difference, that women are likely to [98:49] be more nervous about men [98:51] misinterpreting something in a way that [98:52] might become problematic or threatening [98:54] >> Sure, because of physical danger. [98:56] >> Exactly. And so, I'm super sensitive to [98:57] that. And And nobody I mean, our data [98:59] don't suggest that you should be [99:01] ignoring risks or your senses about [99:03] what's risky. Um but, our data suggests [99:05] that your sense about risk is off a [99:07] little bit. And there are times where [99:08] you might want to test some of those [99:09] beliefs, and you might find some places [99:11] where you're mistaken. I think the [99:13] important thing from my perspective on [99:15] this is that if you're really [99:17] pessimistic about other people, it never [99:19] gets corrected. You never get to find [99:21] the great people to have a conversation [99:23] with, Right. But, it does also mean that [99:25] you will sometimes run into the people [99:27] who aren't so great to have a [99:28] conversation with, and you need to learn [99:30] how to move on from those people, right? [99:32] We're not friends with everybody. [99:33] Certainly, that is true. But, the other [99:36] thing you mentioned was the importance [99:37] of this being a skill. It is something [99:39] that you learn to do as you practice. I [99:42] have become a better conversationalist. [99:44] I've become a better public speaker. I [99:46] become better at doing this because I do [99:48] it for a living, right? And I choose to [99:51] try to do it and try to become better. [99:52] And I try to be when I'm interacting [99:55] with other people to be sensitive to [99:56] them as well. Our data don't suggest [99:59] that you should be reaching out to other [100:01] people in order to make yourself feel [100:02] good. Our data suggests that what feels [100:04] good is when you take an interest in [100:06] other people and you open them up to you [100:08] in a way that you would have avoided or [100:10] missed before. And you'll just have a [100:12] lot more positive experiences that way. [100:15] But it does mean being sensitive to how [100:16] they respond. And you do learn to do [100:18] this over time with practice, just like [100:20] anything. You get better with practice, [100:22] right? And so [100:24] for folks who are concerned about [100:25] starting or trying, my suggestion is [100:27] just like we're just like when you're [100:28] starting anything that you're nervous [100:30] about or hard you you never exercised. [100:33] The prescription is always to start [100:35] small. Pick a little thing that's easy [100:38] and safe. You know that person in the [100:40] office who you've seen for years but you [100:41] don't know their name? [100:43] Just go and say hi to them. And just see [100:45] how that goes. And then try that with [100:46] somebody else. Those are easy, those are [100:48] safe, right? That's not that that's not [100:50] that difficult. [100:51] Um and you'll get better at this over [100:53] time, including figuring out how to [100:56] do things like end conversations with [100:58] somebody who's too sticky or to move [100:59] along or like your advisor did, to [101:01] recognize the person that's sticky and [101:03] then you can manage that a little bit [101:04] differently. Those are skills you [101:05] develop by approaching, you don't [101:08] develop them by avoiding. And you miss a [101:10] lot of people who are wonderful. My Uber [101:13] driver, right? The young man Gustavo on [101:15] my train ride yesterday morning. Brian [101:18] on my flight here uh to speak with you [101:21] today on my on my plane last night. You [101:23] miss a lot of great people, too. And [101:25] that's that's what we find in our [101:26] research that I think is perhaps the [101:28] bigger cost. And just like Gia found, he [101:31] he missed opportunities to get help from [101:33] other people and even to allow people to [101:35] feel better for helping him because he [101:38] was too afraid to ask. [101:40] I'd like to take a quick break and [101:41] acknowledge one of our sponsors, [101:43] Element. Element is an electrolyte drink [101:45] that has everything you need and nothing [101:47] you don't. That means the electrolytes, [101:49] sodium, magnesium, and potassium, all in [101:51] the correct ratios, but no sugar. Proper [101:54] hydration is critical for brain and body [101:56] function. Even a slight degree of [101:58] dehydration can diminish your cognitive [102:00] and physical performance. It's also [102:02] important that you get adequate [102:03] electrolytes. 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I [102:44] love the watermelon, the raspberry, the [102:45] citrus, and I really love the lemonade [102:47] flavor. So, if you'd like to try [102:49] Element, you can go to [102:50] drinkelement.com/huberman [102:52] to claim a free Element sample pack with [102:54] any purchase. Again, that's [102:56] drinkelement.com/huberman [102:58] to claim a free sample pack. [103:00] A lot of people are on their phones [103:02] texting with people they already know. [103:04] Yes. They have an established [103:05] established relationship. Presumably, [103:06] they're continuing to maintain, if not [103:08] build those relationships by doing that. [103:10] And I think that, um, going back to [103:12] this, uh, eye gaze thing from earlier, I [103:14] eyes down into a little box is it's a [103:17] thicker shell to break through, right? [103:19] Like, I don't think any of us really [103:20] feel comfortable, um, interrupting [103:22] somebody texting or on a call. [103:24] >> Right. Um, I mean, I wouldn't do that. [103:27] >> You would think of it as bad manners, [103:28] impolite. Yeah, they're clearly in a a [103:30] conversation with somebody else, the [103:31] same way I wouldn't just walk up and [103:33] interrupt. Actually, yesterday I was at [103:34] a social gathering and there was like [103:35] three people talking and these guys all [103:37] knew each other. I was the stranger in [103:39] the group and like you sort of learn [103:40] like how like what is this guy You have [103:41] to quickly assess like what is this [103:43] conversation? So I said, "Sorry, I don't [103:44] know if I'm interrupting something [103:46] critical, but if so, I'm going to stand [103:47] right here." No, I just said "If I'm [103:49] interrupting like I you know" and [103:50] they're like "No, no, no, like you like [103:51] you have to be able to know how to break [103:53] into a conversation." It's very hard [103:55] when people are on their phones. [103:56] >> It can be. Um the way I think of it is [103:58] you're giving people an invitation. [104:01] I got off the train one morning. This [104:03] guy [104:05] came up behind me. I remember this very [104:06] distinctly. [104:07] Uh he was a little taller than I was. So [104:09] I'm I'm I'm about 6 ft. He was probably [104:11] 6 ft 3. Looks like an Orthodox monk, [104:14] right? He's got this big long beard, [104:16] graying beard, long hair. Looks like you [104:19] know, the last thing he would want to do [104:20] is talk to another person. Very stern [104:22] kind of dead off-to-work face. And and I [104:25] saw him come up sidle up next to me. [104:28] He'd already put his left ear bud in and [104:29] he was putting his right ear bud in at [104:31] the same time, right? [104:33] It would have been easy for me to infer [104:34] that he didn't want to talk to me, [104:36] right? But of course, nobody was talking [104:37] to him either. [104:38] Nobody's talking. And so that signal was [104:41] a little ambiguous. What does it mean? [104:43] Does he want to talk to me? It's it's [104:44] not clear. He could be putting his ear [104:46] bud in because nobody's talking to him. [104:47] He doesn't think other people want to [104:49] talk to him. So he's going to get off to [104:50] work, right? Get away from all these [104:52] jerks. [104:53] I turned to him and said, "Hi, I'm [104:55] Nick." [104:56] Most powerful words you have in your [104:57] life. Hi, I'm whoever you are. I'm Nick. [105:01] He took out his ear bud and he turned to [105:02] me and he just like came alive like I [105:04] was flipping a switch on his back. Huge [105:06] smile. "Hi, I'm Thibault." He's Turns [105:09] out he's French, very strong French [105:10] accent. We became friends over the [105:12] years, right? We walked down the four [105:13] blocks to my office there. And so [105:15] sometimes these cues can be ambiguous. [105:18] And you don't know what the cue means [105:20] until you test it. [105:21] So the way I think about reaching out to [105:23] connect with other people to test our [105:25] fears, right? Our anxiety, our [105:27] interpretations of other people, knowing [105:29] that we can make mistakes with each [105:30] other. [105:31] >> [snorts] [105:31] >> It's to think of it as an invitation. [105:33] Right? When I turned to Gustavo [105:35] yesterday, Brian last night, my cab [105:37] driver my Uber driver this morning, I [105:39] wasn't demanding anything. [105:42] I was offering them an opportunity, an [105:43] invitation to connect if they wanted to. [105:46] Right? Didn't have to pull their earbud [105:48] out. Didn't have Brian last night had a [105:49] little video game [105:51] uh player in in front of him, right? I [105:53] thought maybe he wanted to play video [105:54] games. No, he was happy to talk, right? [105:56] We kind of went in and out. I had a [105:57] manuscript review I had to do. But if [105:59] you start thinking of of these [106:00] opportunities as potential places where [106:02] you might be misunderstanding somebody, [106:04] and don't take your beliefs about [106:07] another person for granted, [106:10] but treat them as bets that might be [106:12] wrong. Well, then you start to see [106:14] places where maybe you'd made a mistake, [106:16] and you give people an opportunity to [106:17] show you, no, Thibault would have been [106:19] happy to talk to me. We became friends [106:21] um over years just because I was willing [106:23] to test that initial belief I had, which [106:26] was mistaken, that he didn't want to [106:28] talk to me. And the problem that at [106:30] least we find over and over again in our [106:31] social lives is all too often [106:34] we infer immediately [106:37] a pessi- we have overly pessimistic [106:39] expectations about how other people will [106:40] respond to us when we try, and we just [106:42] miss opportunities to connect with other [106:44] people that we could have across the [106:46] moments of our days, weeks, months, [106:48] years of our lives that would just [106:49] enrich our lives in lots of ways if we [106:51] were willing to test those barriers that [106:54] were keeping us from connecting with [106:55] other people to see if are they made out [106:56] of steel or is it a pasta noodle? [106:58] Sometimes they're pasta noodles. [107:00] The data I've seen um suggests that more [107:03] and more people are [107:05] going to church, they're attending other [107:07] religious gatherings, you know, it seems [107:10] that um some [107:12] >> in just recent years it's very high. [107:13] >> it's really on the upswing. And and my [107:16] guess is there are a number of reasons [107:17] for that. People want to meet people [107:18] with a certain set of of values. Um [107:21] maybe they are drinking less, who knows. [107:22] You know, I I think a component of those [107:25] types of gatherings [107:27] are that people generally are pretty [107:29] friendly. Yes. It's pretty inviting, [107:31] right? [107:32] You know, [107:33] I mean people still go to festivals, [107:34] too. Like I didn't go, but Coachella was [107:36] recently. And people tend to be in a [107:37] good mood at festivals. I was at TED [107:39] last week. And it was very friendly. [107:42] >> Yeah, so I'm just, you know, we could [107:43] pepper with different examples and I [107:44] think it is important to do so. I didn't [107:46] want to imply it was just just churches, [107:47] but these kinds of common gatherings [107:49] where people are there for their own [107:51] reasons, but also to interact with [107:52] others, including strangers. Absolutely. [107:55] And I think this, in my mind, can be [107:57] pretty well explained by the fact that [107:58] people were indoors during the pandemic. [108:01] A lot of people were, anyway. And and [108:03] everyone's on their phones more and [108:04] devices. So, attending venues where [108:06] there's [108:08] clearly a [108:10] an impulse towards interacting with [108:11] strangers. Actually, sauna gatherings [108:13] are really big in major cities. You [108:15] know, people not just sitting in a sauna [108:16] facing out like bleacher on bleachers, [108:19] but in a round. They're doing breath [108:20] work and you know. So, and on and on. [108:22] So, it's it's interesting. I think [108:24] people really crave this. [108:26] Earlier, we talked a little bit about [108:27] your family and adoption. And I've heard [108:30] you say in a in a previous podcast [108:34] that you have a child or children who [108:37] are particularly outgoing. Yes. Our [108:40] youngest. Yeah, so if you're willing, I [108:42] don't [108:42] would you share a little bit about that? [108:44] It was it's a very interesting and and I [108:46] think important example into um well, [108:50] differences among humans and and [108:53] sometimes we think of differences as [108:55] good, bad. In this case, it was clearly [108:57] an example of how [109:00] some people, by virtue of being more [109:02] outgoing, having less fear, actually [109:05] afford themselves and others a uniquely [109:08] wonderful experience of life. [109:10] >> Yes. Yes. So, our youngest daughter, [109:12] Lindsey, has Down syndrome. And Lindsey [109:15] is adopted from We adopted Lindsey from [109:17] China. [109:18] The research that I've been doing over [109:20] the last 15 or so years with my [109:22] collaborators, where we're finding over [109:24] and over again [109:26] how overly pessimistic we are [109:29] about how we'll how other people will [109:30] respond to us when we reach out to [109:31] connect with them is is just really [109:33] changed the way I live my life. It is [109:35] sometimes hard to take behavioral [109:36] science research and apply it to [109:37] individual lives, but in my own life, [109:39] I've seen ways to do this over and over [109:41] again by testing some of these barriers [109:42] and just being more open to reaching out [109:44] and connect, realizing it's going to be [109:45] more positive than I might imagine. So, [109:48] um [109:49] about 10 years ago, [109:51] uh my wife, this is how this all got us [109:54] to Lindsay in the end, and it came right [109:56] through our research. I remember this so [109:57] vividly. [109:58] My wife We were 3 months into uh [110:02] pregnancy. [110:03] Um we'd already We had named our [110:05] daughter Sophie at that point. We had [110:07] had four kids by that that time. We were [110:09] open to to more life, and and and Jen [110:11] was open. And 3 months into the [110:14] pregnancy, we learned our daughter had [110:15] Down syndrome. [110:16] And my response to that was to be very [110:19] pessimistic. It was uncertain. I didn't [110:22] know how I was I'd never This was not [110:23] where my mind was. I didn't think I [110:25] wasn't thinking that we'd be raising a [110:27] child when we're when we're when we're [110:28] in our 40s with Down syndrome. Um [110:32] this was This was going to be hard. I [110:35] know, though, how easy it is to [110:36] misunderstand [110:38] how you'd respond in a situation you're [110:40] not in. And so, my wife and I and and [110:43] I'm I'm not speaking for my wife's [110:44] thoughts. My wife Jen is an angel. She's [110:46] an amazing human being. As my college [110:48] football coach said when he learned that [110:50] I was a uh going to ask her to marry me [110:52] when I was a junior in college, he said, [110:54] "Nick" He said, "Nick, you're marrying [110:56] up." And he was absolutely right about [110:57] that, marrying up. Um but for me, I was [111:01] nervous about this. We started calling [111:02] families who were raising kids with Down [111:03] syndrome. [111:05] Every one of those families, trying to [111:06] get their perspective to learn what it [111:07] would be like to be in the situation we [111:09] weren't in. [111:10] To a person, those families referred to [111:13] their children with Down syndrome as a [111:14] blessing. It was almost like they were [111:16] reading off of a script. It was amazing [111:18] to hear their stories about how their [111:21] children who did not have much social [111:24] anxiety were just were very open and [111:26] loving and create were like magnets in [111:29] their family that everybody flocked [111:31] around. They just brought joy and love [111:33] and a broader view of what humanity [111:35] could do with each other than they'd [111:38] ever imagined before. They just enriched [111:39] their lives, broadened their worldview [111:41] in ways they couldn't have anticipated. [111:43] Was a blessing. [111:44] 6 months into our pregnancy, [111:46] uh Sophie died. So, children with Down [111:49] syndrome uh face a much higher risk of [111:52] of miscarriage or stillbirth. 6 months [111:54] was a stillbirth. July 11th, 2016, [111:58] our daughter died. It was the worst It [112:00] was horrible. It was the worst [112:02] experience in our marriage we had ever [112:04] had. We mourned that loss for a good [112:06] long stretch. It's about a year. One [112:08] morning, [112:09] I went into the sunroom. My wife was [112:11] sitting there. We had two chairs there [112:12] where she she was sitting in this chair [112:14] where she always sits and I said, "You [112:16] know, honey, we were [112:18] we were ready to have another baby. We [112:20] could do this again. There's There are [112:21] There are children out there who need [112:22] parents. We've adopted two before. We [112:25] know how this goes. We can do this [112:26] again. We were ready. We were in the [112:27] starting blocks. We were ready to go." [112:29] And she turned to me and she said, [112:31] "Would you be open to adopting a child [112:32] with Down syndrome?" [112:34] It had not even occurred to me that that [112:36] was something we could do. I hadn't [112:37] thought about it. My head was not there. [112:40] All over again. I was back where I was 3 [112:43] months before thinking, [112:45] "I don't know that we can do this, [112:46] right? This is going to be super hard." [112:49] And then, [112:50] you know, if you're a researcher, you do [112:52] think about your data all the time. I [112:53] started thinking again about, you know, [112:55] where we were 3 months ago calling all [112:56] these families who talked about their [112:57] kids as blessings. All this data, [112:59] thousands and thousands of data points. [113:01] By this point, as I'm talking to you [113:02] now, we've run over 30,000 people in [113:05] over 120 experiments, people reaching [113:07] out to others documenting ways in which [113:09] they're underestimating how positively [113:11] others will respond. They're making the [113:12] choice [113:14] to hold back too often rather than [113:15] reaching out and engaging, connecting [113:17] with other people too much. And and here [113:19] we had this choice right in front of us. [113:21] My wife was offering it. Do we reach out [113:22] and bring this child into our lives, [113:24] this stranger, [113:26] or not? And I was full of doubt here, [113:28] all the same kind of doubt. [113:30] How would she respond to us? [113:32] Our data though [113:34] gave me some courage here, like [113:35] data-driven courage. Like, Nick, you are [113:37] in the same position that all of your [113:39] participants are in over and over again. [113:43] And it gave me courage to go where my [113:45] wife was. [113:47] And to say, "Yeah, we can do this. [113:48] Honey, you and I can do this together." [113:49] Now, Jen and I are in a position that's [113:52] different from lots of other families. [113:53] We have resources. She's a fabulous [113:56] uh human being. We have a strong [113:57] marriage. We could do Raising a child [114:00] with intellectual disabilities [114:01] challenging. But [114:04] we We could do this. And my data really [114:07] made me feel comfortable that it [114:09] wouldn't just be good. It would be [114:11] surprisingly good. About a year after [114:13] that, [114:14] Jen and I boarded a flight with our four [114:16] other kids. We're like a traveling [114:18] circus show on our way to China. Um [114:21] folks had not seen a family like ours to [114:23] adopt Lindsey. She's 2 years old. She [114:26] was abandoned in China by a woman who we [114:28] will never meet, whose thoughts we [114:30] can't, you know, about how hard this [114:31] might have been or the how little [114:33] support she had to raise a child like [114:35] Lindsey, we don't know. [114:37] Uh [114:38] Lindsey had beautiful brown eyes, [114:40] relentless smile, [114:43] despite a really, really hard start in [114:45] life. [114:46] And that was how that started. And she [114:49] has been amazing. She has been flat-out [114:51] amazing. [114:53] Not not without difficulty. Raising a [114:55] child with an intellectual disability is [114:56] really, really, really hard. [114:59] At the same time, she has been what [115:01] every other family has said that raising [115:05] a child with Down syndrome would be like [115:07] a blessing to us in so many ways. And to [115:09] watch her go around the world, I mean, [115:12] she gets frustrated and she's stubborn [115:14] and she gets angry at people, but she [115:16] also lives without the same kind of [115:19] social anxiety that many of us has. She [115:21] has no filter on her hello. [115:24] Taking her grocery shopping is is super [115:27] fun. Goes up and down the aisles. She [115:29] says a hello to everybody. Everybody. [115:32] And it's like just like with my with my [115:34] friend Teebow who I flipped the switch [115:35] on his back and he gives his big hello [115:37] to me. She flips the switch on so many [115:39] people's backs. Their faces light up [115:41] when she says hello to them. And she [115:43] walks around the world this way. Open. [115:45] Hello to everybody. [115:47] It's amazing. It's amazing. And I think [115:49] about how close [115:51] we could have been. I could have been to [115:54] saying, "I don't think I can do this." [115:56] Because we failed to appreciate just how [115:58] well things would go when we reached out [116:00] to love someone, bring them into our [116:01] lives when we could. And she's amazing. [116:05] What an incredible story. Uh [116:07] if you don't mind me asking, what is the [116:10] relationship between your youngest [116:12] daughter and the other children in your [116:14] family? Um because it, you know, you [116:16] described a beautiful set of examples [116:18] with people outside your family and [116:19] obviously you and your wife [116:21] [clears throat] have an incredible [116:21] connection to her, but but what is her [116:24] relationship to the other siblings? [116:25] >> the magnet in the family. I mean, she is [116:26] the baby. Everybody just, you know, if [116:28] if you if you are in a family with a a [116:30] young, you know, a youngest sibling, you [116:32] all glam around that youngest one. She [116:34] is like that too for the siblings too. [116:37] Now, it's also hard. They need some time [116:39] alone, but they [116:40] when you come home and Lindsey is there, [116:43] I get a "Hi, Dad!" That's of a volume [116:46] that every [clears throat] dad should [116:48] hear when they come home. It is [116:50] wonderful. The sisters and the brothers [116:52] all get that too. [116:54] It's great. It's great. She is very [116:57] connected to everybody in a way that I [116:59] think even the other siblings aren't [117:01] potentially. They get older, they go [117:02] their own ways. But [117:05] everybody loves Lindsay. Is it the case [117:08] that uh [117:09] children with Down are given up for [117:12] adoption more? I mean, you described a [117:14] very [117:16] what I assume is a somewhat unique [117:17] situation in China. Somebody You said [117:19] abandoned so she was given to an [117:20] orphanage. [117:21] >> Yes. I so I don't know anything about [117:23] this, right? I I yeah, I actually [117:25] colleague that was like studied GABA [117:26] transmission in the brain of you know, [117:28] in Down and like you know, it but like I [117:30] have I have zero minus infinite [117:32] knowledge of this. You can [117:34] adopt a child with Down syndrome today [117:36] in the United States and there's a [117:37] waiting list for these kids in most [117:38] places. The other thing that happens [117:40] though is what what could have happened [117:42] to us at 3 months and I think this is [117:44] more common now as genetic testing [117:46] allows you to tell whether your child [117:49] has any number of different kind of [117:51] genetic [117:52] um you know, differences, uh diversity [117:54] on that dimension. And look, there's [117:56] some there's some conditions that are [117:58] just very, very hard to manage or that [118:00] aren't conducive to life. Down syndrome [118:02] is just not one of those. But many [118:04] families at that 3-month period because [118:08] they're skeptical or pessimistic about [118:10] how well they can handle this. They [118:12] don't know the supports that are [118:13] available. They don't realize the [118:15] strength that they owed that they that [118:17] they have or the amount of love that [118:19] they will feel for this child once it [118:21] becomes yours. Hardships [118:23] notwithstanding, it is harder, no doubt [118:24] about it. Will end those pregnancies [118:28] when like us might have found it to be a [118:32] massive blessing in their lives. I don't [118:34] I don't know what to tell people to do [118:35] with that other than telling our own [118:37] story. I think people have strength that [118:39] they might not realize and there are [118:41] lots of very challenging conditions. [118:44] Down syndrome is one that is not as [118:46] challenging as you might imagine. These [118:48] kids are amazing. Amazing. And you know, [118:51] our our kids are our kids you know, even [118:53] even like, you know, across as we were [118:55] talking earlier, whether your kids have [118:57] come in how however kids have come into [118:58] your into your life, once they're your [119:00] kids, I mean, the fact that she has Down [119:02] syndrome is something that is always [119:04] kind of on our minds cuz it governs lots [119:06] of things we do, but it also fades very [119:08] quickly. Lindsay's just Lindsay, right? [119:10] She's got she's got her own personality. [119:12] She does her own things. Like the the [119:14] intellectual disability is just is kind [119:16] of a [119:17] becomes almost a like a background [119:19] thing. It is not what defines her. She [119:21] loves playing with dolls and Disney [119:23] characters. She loves listening to [119:24] stories. She loves reading books with [119:26] you. She loves loves loves playing on [119:29] the trampoline and playing in her [119:30] outdoor kitchen. She loves playing with [119:32] the neighbor kids, Demi and Delilah. [119:34] They are her closest friends. She loves [119:36] all those things. She has a huge [119:38] personality, and that's what defines her [119:40] in our lives day-to-day, not the [119:42] diagnosis. Well, I've only known you a [119:45] short while, and I'm in no position to [119:48] psychoanalyze you, but I I have to [119:50] assume that [119:52] something very powerful about you, and [119:55] I'm also assuming about your wife, Jen, [119:58] that your very clear complete lack of [120:02] shame [120:03] about the fact that she has Down [120:06] is has to be a positive [120:09] um [120:10] force here in this. I I'm not trying to [120:12] take anything away from who she who [120:14] Lindsay is as an individual, but um [120:17] I don't know if I want to darken the [120:18] conversation with with a contrast story, [120:20] but I will. I will. I I won't reveal who [120:21] this person is, but there's a very very [120:24] famous neuroscientist [120:27] who was pretty well known that he had a [120:30] son who had epileptic seizures. Yeah. I [120:33] mean, what's the shame in that, right? [120:36] But, he was ashamed of his son. He [120:37] wouldn't bring him to events. He [120:38] wouldn't bring him to things. I'm [120:40] actually aware of several high-level [120:42] scientists, and I don't I have to be [120:43] careful because I don't want to paint a [120:44] negative view of scientists. I could [120:45] tell you a thousand stories about [120:47] wonderful scientists doing wonderful [120:49] things for every for every bad story. [120:50] But I remember hearing this and thinking [120:52] like this is crazy. Well, someone who [120:54] worked in his lab said, yeah, you know, [120:56] he's got a Nobel Prize, but he he's [120:57] incredibly ashamed of his son. I thought [120:59] like that's nuts. I have a good friend [121:02] in the positive side, my good friend [121:04] Eddie Chang, who's the chair of [121:05] neurosurgery at UCSF, and he works on [121:07] epilepsy. And then like you can treat [121:09] various forms of epilepsy. This wasn't [121:11] intractable epilepsy. So I think when [121:13] parents have a shame about a child's [121:17] condition. Yes. That has to impact the [121:19] way that the child moves in the world. I [121:22] think it's really awesome that there is [121:24] like zero minus infinity shame detected. [121:28] Like I hear I hear only I hear only [121:31] glowing things and and pride. And and I [121:33] also don't detect any hints of like [121:35] we're doing this really hard thing and [121:37] therefore we're we're amazing. But like [121:38] you said, she's just our daughter and we [121:40] have this relationship. We're her [121:41] parents, she's our daughter, and like [121:43] we're just living life. Yeah. Which I [121:44] think is awesome. I think it's it's a [121:46] it's a real testament to who you are and [121:48] I think it's a real and your wife and [121:49] and Lindsay and I think it's a testament [121:51] to like what's possible when we get out [121:55] of like what do people think. It just [121:57] seems like every all goodness just [121:59] emerges from you. [121:59] >> to be clear, I mean it's been a struggle [122:02] for me too. I don't want to certainly [122:03] paint myself as not having concerns [122:05] about this or being worried what people [122:07] will think about us or you know, even [122:08] our other kids when they're going [122:09] through difficult stretches in their [122:11] lives. They're not doing the kinds of [122:12] things that maybe I did, right? I have [122:15] to [122:16] make myself okay with that and come to [122:19] accept that. And when I when I do that, [122:21] so I have another son who we just love [122:23] absolute love dearly who college just [122:26] wasn't for him. You know, I'm a I'm a [122:28] PhD I'm a third generation PhD. One of [122:31] them on my mom's side and my dad is a [122:32] PhD as well and college is just the [122:34] root, right? I've been in academic life [122:37] for my whole college was just the root, [122:39] but it just wasn't for him. And it just [122:41] wasn't engaging with it. And I I kept [122:45] and I I mean this is I'm saying this [122:46] with some shame myself right now that [122:49] we kind of kept him in this path [122:51] thinking this is the right way to go and [122:53] it was would have been clear to an [122:54] outsider that this isn't what he wants [122:56] to be doing. He finally came to us very [122:58] clearly and said that, you know, Dad, we [123:00] I just just not what I want to keep [123:01] doing. And when we finally let go of [123:02] that and just let him do what he wanted [123:04] to do which is now he's in a trade [123:06] school. I've never seen him happier. [123:07] We're just so proud of him. Now like the [123:09] like the Sabu who I met on the train [123:11] yesterday morning taking this culinary [123:12] class. He's so proud of what he's doing. [123:14] Just made me feel so good about him and [123:16] also about my son to let go of those [123:18] things and just to love him for who he [123:19] is. Every parent struggles with that. [123:22] Every parent struggles with loving their [123:23] kids for who they are and that takes [123:25] some practice too and also some [123:27] deliberate careful thought and [123:29] attention. Um and it's worth challenging [123:31] yourself to do because of course it [123:32] makes the world of difference for them [123:34] and [123:35] we all struggle to do that somewhat. [123:37] With Lindsey, she's a ray of sunshine. [123:38] We refer to her sometimes as a unicorn [123:40] cuz there aren't too many out there and [123:41] we learned a little while ago, I don't [123:43] know how true this is. I don't know who [123:44] comes up with these things, but it turns [123:45] out a collection of unicorns, do you [123:48] know what it is ostensibly called? A [123:50] blessing. [123:51] Really? Really? That's awesome. Who'd [123:53] have guessed? [123:54] Look, I'm [laughter] not I don't I yeah. [123:56] I won't I won't put that [123:58] to some sort of actual test. That is [124:00] what they are apparently called as a [124:01] blessing and that certainly has been [124:03] what she's been for us. [124:05] A lot of lessons in there and a and a [124:06] lot of [124:08] things for people to think about in [124:10] terms of who they are and how they [124:11] relate to to people. Um if you don't [124:14] mind, I I just would like to peel back [124:16] another layer on on relationships with [124:21] I'll use the example of children, but it [124:22] could be with family other family member [124:25] where that person is not typical of the [124:28] the average population. [124:31] And you described Lindsey in this [124:33] in this beautiful way. I almost feel [124:34] like she's like a bit in the room, [124:36] right? You know, the way you describe [124:37] her. [124:38] Um [124:38] and [124:40] I think when I'm out and about and I see [124:43] um a parent or parents with a kid who [124:46] has an I mean, I don't know what the [124:49] diagnoses are, right? How could I? Um an [124:52] intellectual or a some some sort of a [124:54] atypical behavior. The way you describe [124:56] her is very delightful. Yeah. [124:59] Sometimes um the behavior of children [125:02] with with these um challenges are [125:04] disruptive. [125:05] >> Yeah. It's hard to not feel the shame of [125:08] the parent. You know, like if a kid is [125:10] being really loud or throwing a tantrum [125:11] and this isn't a small child, for [125:13] instance, or saying things that clearly [125:15] don't make sense. And um I I don't [125:17] expect you to be, you know, the [125:18] ambassador for all these people. I think [125:20] we we as um sentient [125:23] well-meaning people around we don't [125:25] quite know how to react to that. Like [125:26] you want to say, "Gosh, I'm so sorry." [125:28] No, of course not. Like that's their [125:30] life, you know, who are you? You also [125:31] don't want to [125:32] perhaps ignore them, but you also don't [125:34] want people to feel like that you're [125:35] calling attention to them. Do you have [125:36] any ideas like or suggestions? I mean, I [125:39] mean, it's like [125:40] it must be it must be an odd experience [125:43] to move through life that way. [125:45] Um [125:46] and I'm so glad they don't isolate their [125:48] kid. Yeah. But I think we've all been in [125:50] this circumstance and we don't quite [125:51] know how to react. [125:53] >> Yeah. So, I think uh a good analog to [125:55] this is um is with stuttering. And I [125:57] think we all know how to deal with [125:58] stuttering. Somebody who has a stutter [126:00] is you wait patiently. Mhm. And you [126:02] know, you don't call attention to it. [126:04] >> Mhm. You just wait patiently for them to [126:06] express what they want to express and [126:08] then you you carry on, right? And um [126:11] maybe sometime if you get to know [126:12] somebody, you can ask more specifically [126:14] about, you know, how would you like me [126:16] to to help in this particular case? Is [126:18] there anything I can do to be of [126:20] assistance? How how would you like me to [126:22] to respond? We can ask people that [126:23] directly, right? Um [126:26] and you know, often often somebody a [126:28] caretaker will will be able to tell you [126:30] that. But patience is I think the way to [126:34] to deal with just to wait until whatever [126:36] they're trying to do becomes clear. And [126:38] I think we can all do that with [126:40] stuttering. I think that's kind of [126:41] understood, and maybe that's the way I [126:43] would think about it. But, yes, some, [126:45] you know, some differences are harder [126:47] than others, for sure. Yeah, having [126:49] grown up in a town, Palo Alto, where [126:51] there are many, many professors and [126:52] high-achieving parents, and [126:55] um [126:55] I could list off a dozen or more [126:57] examples of [126:59] uh where the kids either [127:02] didn't follow the traditional track. [127:04] >> Yes. You could say, "Oh, they didn't [127:05] follow the traditional track, but they [127:06] became like a politicing [127:07] Pulitzer-winning writer, you know, or [127:09] something like that." I'm not talking [127:10] about that, right? I think it's so cool, [127:12] by the way, that your son is in trade [127:14] school. I have friends that from all [127:15] walks of life, and fulfillment is is [127:18] I've never seen our son happier. Yeah, I [127:20] mean, we're two academics, you know, my [127:21] dad's an academic, and I I can say that [127:24] um I actually think I would've been [127:25] happy doing any number of things. At one [127:26] point, I wanted to join the fire [127:27] service. I absolutely My dad, every once [127:29] in a while, sorry, Dad, he'll say like, [127:31] "Oh, you know, I don't think that [127:32] would've been fulfilling." I think it [127:33] would've been awesome. Like, you get to [127:34] work out, and the dog, like, I love [127:36] serving others, like, get out, you know, [127:38] and and do things, and we're I'm friends [127:40] with the local fire department. When [127:41] they come through, like, [127:43] I certainly don't know what it is to do [127:44] that profession, but like, I think [127:45] fulfillment can be found in a number of [127:47] ways. [127:48] >> Fulfillment's about engagement, right? [127:49] And people like firefighters. Being a [127:51] cop is a little tricky, cuz some people [127:52] like you, and some people hate you, and [127:53] the job is much more it [127:55] from moment to moment is a a lot less [127:57] predictable. [127:58] >> I think one thing that we can do, and I [127:59] I haven't always been great at this in [128:01] in my family. I told you, it took me a [128:03] while with my son to encourage him more [128:06] down that path, and I'm just now [128:07] realizing that's what I need to be doing [128:09] is [128:10] to you know, I think kids will also [128:12] often will feel like they are not [128:13] following the right path, and won't feel [128:15] good about the path they're going down. [128:17] And that's where parents can really be [128:18] helpful. We have, right outside my [128:20] office window, is the University of [128:22] Chicago Laboratory School, which is a [128:24] very elite, private, um [128:27] high school. And it goes all the way [128:28] through, you know, down to to preschool [128:30] as well. And the kids come out of there [128:33] with a very clear expectation about what [128:35] the right path is for them and a lot of [128:37] kids struggle with that. I just had a [128:39] faculty member in my office yesterday [128:41] before I left to get on a flight with [128:42] you describing um how their children [128:46] are are struggling, I think, with [128:48] expectations [128:50] for what they ought to be doing that [128:51] just don't fit with who they are. And I [128:53] think that's where parents can be really [128:54] helpful for their kids is loving them [128:57] for who they are and helping them find [128:58] what's going to make them the happiest [129:00] and telling them making sure that kids [129:02] know that any path is okay. You want to [129:04] be a carpenter, great. That job won't be [129:06] AI'd, at least, right? Or, you know, you [129:08] want to be get a PhD, fabulous. Whatever [129:10] field, go for it, right? Trying to [129:12] encourage kids with their passions and [129:14] encouraging them to feel like it's okay. [129:16] That's important. You have another side [129:18] of you that most people aren't aware of [129:20] that we somehow landed on walking in [129:22] here was like somewhat randomly, which [129:24] is Yeah. um you enjoy a lot of as much [129:27] time as possible in the out of doors. [129:29] You're a a hunter and a fisherman, a [129:31] outdoorsman. So, you wanted to be [129:33] Grizzly Adams. Yeah, when I was a kid, [129:35] yeah. [129:35] >> But in some sense, you you you play him [129:37] from time to time. [129:38] >> Sort of. But not out on your own. So, [129:39] you and your and your sons sons and [129:42] daughters go get out into the waters. [129:44] Yeah. I grew up in rural Iowa out in the [129:45] country. My dad and I went hunting and [129:47] fishing all the time when I was a kid. I [129:49] was 4 years old the first time I went [129:51] deer hunting with my dad and I loved [129:54] that time. For yeah, I walked along cuz [129:56] we were [129:57] >> shorter than the than the rifle. [129:58] >> Oh, yeah. No, I remember years where the [129:59] snow would feel like it was up to my [130:01] hips hunting deer in Iowa in early [130:02] December and I wouldn't carry a gun [130:04] until I was 12 or or a bow. I started [130:07] bow hunting when I was 12. Um but before [130:09] then, you would you would push the deer. [130:10] You'd walk through the woods with other [130:12] guys, with my dad or or with the friends [130:14] that we'd have. It was a real community [130:15] of people. I mean, the the social [130:17] connection there was great. We used to [130:18] go hunting with a guy when I was a kid, [130:20] Lane McDowell, who was friends with my [130:22] dad, he was a football player for the [130:23] University of Iowa and he played for the [130:25] Detroit Lions. He's just a big monster [130:27] of a man. [130:28] Fabulous guy and his son Thad, who would [130:31] go who was also in my same age, we [130:32] played football together [130:34] against each other in high school. But [130:36] yeah, I grew up doing that and then, you [130:38] know, as I've gotten older, I've stayed [130:39] connected to the outdoors. I love being [130:41] in the woods. I love doing conservation [130:43] kind of work. There's kind of an element [130:44] of caring [130:45] for other people that also extends to [130:47] caring for the for the woodlands that [130:49] are out there. I do a lot of invasive [130:52] removal. We have enrolled 40 acres in [130:55] the conservation reserve program, [130:56] planted 9,000 trees on it. And I see a [130:59] lot of opportunities to connect with [131:02] people in places that other people [131:03] wouldn't. Like I see the outdoors, [131:06] hunting and fishing. You almost never do [131:07] that truly alone. [131:10] Right? You always have somebody with me [131:11] when I'm fishing. I always have, you [131:13] know, go out with the kids when I'm [131:14] turkey hunting or hunting deers and it's [131:16] that social element that is really so [131:18] important. And that And there is an [131:20] element of this that came but just felt [131:22] like it came right out of my research [131:25] that happened last fall in Oregon. My [131:26] son, my oldest son Ben, is a third-year [131:29] PhD student at Oregon State pursuing a [131:31] PhD there. [131:33] Um and bless his heart, last spring he [131:36] asked his dad to do the thing that made [131:39] me just the happiest you could have [131:40] done. He said, "Dad, would you like to [131:42] come out here and go elk hunting with [131:43] me?" Like I I you know, I'm grew up in [131:46] rural Iowa. The idea we'd be out in the [131:48] mountains actually doing this just never [131:50] was something that occurred to me that [131:51] we that we could do, but he asked if we [131:53] could do it and I was so excited. We [131:55] would get a week together out in the [131:57] remote wilderness of Oregon, just the [132:00] two of us, sitting around trees looking [132:02] for elk. It doesn't matter if you get [132:03] one or not, whatever. That's not what [132:05] it's about. It's about being out there [132:06] and seeing what what what you see and [132:08] being together. And it was going to be [132:10] fabulous. And I was so excited. So last [132:13] fall, this was uh, October, November, I [132:16] can't quite remember the exact date. [132:18] Went into northeast Oregon. And we went [132:20] out into the, uh, out in the woods. [132:22] We're miles away from the nearest road. [132:24] We hike in. It's really hard. It's cold. [132:26] There's snow on the ground. We got, [132:27] we're not really prepared for this. [132:28] First the time we've ever done this. We [132:30] don't have any chairs with us or [132:31] anything. We got backpacking tents, [132:32] freezing our butts off. Uh, and the [132:34] first day we go out to scout. We don't [132:36] know what we're doing here at all. We're [132:38] just going to see, I don't know, where [132:39] the elk are. How do we do this? We go [132:40] down into this valley. And we're not [132:42] there for more than 20 minutes, maybe. [132:45] When our time alone suddenly becomes a [132:47] little more social than it would have [132:49] been otherwise. We look behind us, like [132:51] 3/4 of a mile up the valley, we got this [132:53] group of guys coming in camo down the [132:56] way. And my son, Ben, was a little [132:59] nervous about this, right? A little [133:00] anxiety about reaching out and [133:02] connecting with other people, right? A [133:03] little like you'd have somebody sits [133:05] down next to you train, well, maybe I'll [133:06] just keep to myself, or on a plane, just [133:08] keep to myself. Here we're out in the [133:09] wilderness and we got this group of [133:10] hunters. It's like a gang of men coming [133:13] down the down the valley towards us, all [133:15] in camo. [133:17] And so Ben's like, you know, let's let's [133:18] move on, Dad. Let's let's get going. And [133:20] I said, "No, let's let's stay and talk [133:21] with these guys." And they wait, they [133:24] come down, and we start talking. It [133:26] turns out these guys have been hunting [133:27] in this valley in this area for years, [133:29] for decades. The older guy, Dennis, had [133:32] been going with another older guy. I [133:34] think they gotten connected through [133:35] their church. The the other older guy [133:38] had passed away recently. But they now [133:40] they have another guy, Corey, who they [133:42] who gotten connected to them. And the [133:44] the kids are all with them, Eric and, [133:47] um, [133:47] and there were, I think there were there [133:49] were five at the time. And we just [133:51] started talking, and then they start [133:53] telling us how to do this. And where we [133:55] could go. And how we could coordinate [133:57] with each other to make sure we weren't, [133:58] you know, we both had the best time that [134:00] we could. And they told us, "Well, [134:02] there's a blind up here where you could [134:03] hunt. And and you could go down there [134:05] and hunt in this other spot." And we [134:06] just started working together. And they [134:07] were delightful. Just like like just [134:10] like it is when you reach out to connect [134:11] with other people, they reach back to [134:13] you. They invited us to their tent for [134:16] dinner. [134:17] I'll just never forget they got this [134:18] huge this amazing wall tent. They've got [134:20] a camp stove. They've got a a spring [134:22] where they get fresh water. They got a [134:23] bathroom where they are. Uh we walk into [134:26] their tent, it's heated. We're freezing. [134:28] Our truck is off in the snow. We walk [134:30] into their tent, the first thing they [134:31] say to us, "Would you like a red or [134:33] white?" They got wine in their in their [134:35] cabin miles from it. These guys were [134:38] fabulous. And it turned an event that [134:40] was great for Ben and I [134:42] into an even better event cuz we [134:44] connected with these men who now just [134:46] yesterday Corey sent me a text message [134:48] saying, "It's time to apply for your elk [134:50] tags. This is when we're going to go and [134:51] this is when we're going to come out in [134:52] case you want to do this with us again." [134:54] And in fact, Corey um Corey got an got [134:57] an elk the first day, right? He filled [134:59] his bull tag. And we were coming back [135:01] from hunting. Ben and I had seen one, [135:03] but we weren't able to get a shot at it. [135:05] Still amazing to see one. And we're [135:07] walking back and the the young young [135:09] kids, Eric, uh is leading this group. [135:12] He says, [135:13] "Get on down there and show Corey how to [135:15] bone out that that elk." I've boned out [135:17] many many deer. So this is the only red [135:19] meat we eat is the venison that that I [135:21] get. And um so I know how to butcher [135:23] these animals and prepare them to to [135:25] eat. And they had just been hauling out [135:27] these big quarters of animals, like [135:29] 100-lb rib cage, right? That's a lot of [135:31] bones that you don't even want to. So I [135:32] got to go down and help Corey and show [135:34] him how to bone out the backstrap and [135:36] the loins and all the meat that you [135:37] actually eat and leave the bones that [135:40] are there for the you know the cougars [135:41] and stuff to get later. And it was it [135:44] was it was fabulous, right? And that the [135:47] courage that I had to talk with them to [135:49] connect with them out there, again, I [135:50] felt just came straight from our [135:52] research that how easy it is to [135:53] underestimate how positively other [135:56] people respond when you reach out to [135:58] them. And here it would have been easy [135:59] for us to be competitive or avoid this. [136:03] And it was such a blessing to have [136:05] connected with them. And we've stayed [136:07] connected with this since, and I hope I [136:08] hope we see him again in the fall out [136:10] there in the woods. It would be [136:11] fabulous. Wonderful men. That's awesome, [136:13] and thanks for putting in a a strong, [136:16] clear, [136:17] ethical picture of hunters. I think a [136:19] lot of people have a picture of hunters [136:21] that is very different than what you [136:22] just described. Uh my friend Cam Hanes [136:24] is a serious about preserving wild [136:26] lands, and he's a very, very serious bow [136:29] hunter, and I mean, there are really [136:31] shining examples. There are bad apples [136:32] out there, too, but I think people often [136:35] have a certain stereotype of hunters, um [136:39] you know, and yet most of those people [136:41] also buy store-bought meat um [136:43] from factory farms. And so, you know, [136:45] and not to guilt anybody, but there's a [136:47] lot more to explore there. So, I [136:48] appreciate not just the [136:50] description of the beautiful social [136:51] interaction and what grew from it, but [136:53] also the context. [136:55] >> There's a level of caring. I mean, I [136:56] care about the woodlands, and I try to [136:58] protect it as best I can. Turns out the [136:59] deer are kind of a threat. There's a lot [137:01] of ecological damage that they that they [137:03] cause in the woodlands in the Midwest [137:05] because there's just a lot of them. It's [137:07] a harvesting responsibly and [137:09] respectfully. I only hunt with a [137:10] crossbow now, for instance, because I [137:13] can be much more accurate with it, and [137:14] so I can take an animal ethically, and [137:17] humanely, and quickly, and that's why [137:19] why I do that. So, most of the hunters [137:21] that I've ever met are that way. They [137:23] care about being outdoors. They like [137:24] being with each other. Getting an animal [137:26] is a different is part of it, but is not [137:28] is not the main thing, and um yeah, I'm [137:31] and I folks who don't hunt, I think [137:32] don't appreciate that that care [137:36] that people have, outdoorsmen have for [137:38] the outdoors. What a great uh lesson for [137:40] your son. He's lucky to have you as a [137:42] dad. I can say that. [137:44] It's awesome. I was reflecting on a [137:45] couple of things, which leads me to uh [137:48] probably what is our the final question [137:50] in in a minute or two, but I was just [137:51] sort of chuckling inside at one moment [137:53] because as you're describing that, I'm [137:54] thinking, "Okay, so my dad was a [137:55] theoretical physicist, right? So, [137:57] bringing me to work was a little [137:58] different." I mean, we did a great many [138:00] things together, but but um but he [138:03] realized and uh he's he's [138:05] quite quite smart and he realized that [138:07] showing me a bunch of equations on on a [138:09] whiteboard wasn't wasn't going to cut [138:10] it. So I'll never forget [138:12] he started off as an experimentalist and [138:14] so my first like go to go to work with [138:16] dad day was he took me to the lab and [138:19] they had all these fruit out and a big [138:22] tank of liquid nitrogen and we spent the [138:24] day dipping bananas into liquid nitrogen [138:26] smashing them on the walls which for [138:28] like a 6-year-old kid was like pure joy. [138:30] That's awesome thing. I went back to [138:31] school telling all my friends that I [138:32] could [laughter] shatter bananas and all [138:33] this stuff. So wasn't quite what you [138:35] described but I've I've fisherman on my [138:37] mom's side and [138:38] and my girlfriend's family she's got a [138:40] long long line of hunters [138:42] and and farmers so I think they're going [138:44] to put me to the test soon but [138:45] >> Well, here's the parents doing great [138:47] things with their kids. Well, and that's [138:48] the the question I was going to ask you [138:50] know um [138:52] not to uh [138:54] in fact to do the opposite of of [138:57] trivialize um [138:59] older generations teaching younger [139:00] generations about what proper social [139:02] interactions are. [139:05] The other thing I was thinking [139:07] during your story is that you know this [139:09] is how [139:10] social [139:11] dynamics and learning occurs in our [139:14] species. Like if [139:16] that series that was on Netflix the [139:18] chimp empire series did you watch it? [139:20] Oh wow fascinating because it's all [139:22] about social dynamics in chimps. [139:24] Everything from covert gaze and and [139:26] they're brutal to each other. They [139:27] ostracize they they it's very intense [139:29] and there's also a lot of beauty but [139:31] it's not just a bunch of you know like [139:32] happy chimps. It's it's it's intense [139:35] warring between troops and so forth but [139:38] it makes you think about our species [139:39] right? And I'm raising a puppy right now [139:41] and and I was telling my girlfriend cuz [139:43] she's not raised a puppy before. She's [139:45] she's like better at it than I am [139:46] already of course and I'm and I'm [139:48] explained to her I said you know the [139:50] fastest way to train Strummer our little [139:53] bulldog mastiff would be to get an older [139:55] dog Mhm. here we are like teaching at [139:58] these human cues and trying to but we [140:00] really need to get into the mindset of a [140:02] dog and I only a dog can really do that. [140:04] Like they're so nose led. They're [140:06] they're great at sensing literally the [140:08] the autonomic tone of people around. [140:10] They're sensitive to space. Here we are [140:11] saying sit and stay and do it like Yeah. [140:14] Yeah. They hear it but like we're [140:15] bringing them it'll be like us trying to [140:16] learn how to use our noses to it to [140:18] navigate. So [140:19] it is a fact that within every species [140:22] the older members of that species teach [140:24] the younger members of that species how [140:25] to socialize. And I could rattle off [140:28] lots of examples from my own life but I [140:29] won't where I observed [140:31] >> Yes. my mom and dad doing certain things [140:34] in certain situations. And so while on [140:36] the one hand until now I feel like we've [140:38] been talking to the kind of like the [140:39] young listeners and stuff the parents of [140:41] kids or the to be parents of kids or the [140:44] siblings or the older or people who [140:47] don't even have kids like modeling [140:48] really good social interactions. [140:51] I [140:52] firmly believe based on everything we've [140:54] talked about today that is every bit as [140:56] critical as the person getting out there [140:58] and and pushing themselves past their [141:00] anxiety to to um to do the right things. [141:03] What we need to model better better [141:05] everyday social interactions. And so [141:08] it's clear you did that in this example [141:10] and in other examples. So it any ideas [141:12] off the top of your head as to the let's [141:14] just call it like the uh the 40 and up [141:16] crowd like it's all it's kind of on us [141:18] to model really good social interactions [141:21] because that's how just like Strummer [141:23] would learn better from a dog [141:25] learning from the internet is great but [141:27] a lot of kids don't have Yeah. maybe [141:29] they have a single parent or they're [141:31] away from their parents or the ship [141:32] passed or maybe maybe mom or dad was [141:34] kind of a nasty person unhappy person. [141:37] Yeah. Or overly outgoing and it got them [141:38] hurt. [clears throat] Like like so what [141:41] do you recommend people do to model [141:43] really good social interactions? [141:44] >> So pay attention to your habits. That's [141:46] the most important thing. It's those [141:47] little moments and you know where I [141:49] screw up I'm I'm prone to a quick temper [141:51] and where I've made I'm still have a I [141:53] still have the college football player [141:54] inside me. You like to hit things with [141:56] your head? Well, I I want to fix [141:57] something, right? And so, if something's [141:59] not going my way, I'll try to fix it in [142:00] some way. And so, I still have that [142:03] inside me from time to time, and I have [142:05] to actively try to create habits that [142:08] that don't don't do that. So, you know, [142:10] act get out of a situation if I'm [142:12] getting frustrated rather than try to [142:13] respond and correct it in that moment. [142:15] But, those little habits, that's where [142:17] it shows up. People are watching. People [142:19] are watching you in those moments. Those [142:21] little things that you think aren't that [142:23] important are what folks are paying [142:25] attention to. In our research, when I [142:28] think about how you how you apply the [142:31] stuff we're learning in our experiments [142:32] of people being overly pessimistic about [142:35] how others will respond to them, the way [142:37] you apply that in your own life isn't [142:39] that you learn how to behave differently [142:42] from learning this is that you take that [142:44] and you try to develop a little habit [142:47] that then makes that something you do [142:48] routinely over and over again. So, for [142:50] instance, one a little thing that I have [142:52] started doing with this routine little [142:55] habit in mind is I've made a habit when [142:58] I get into my office, and it's now [143:00] expanded kind of beyond that, but I [143:01] started at the office. I was realizing [143:04] one day that when I get to the office [143:06] where my where the door is to get into [143:07] the building, I've got maybe, I don't [143:09] know, 150-yd walk through the the atrium [143:12] in the middle of the building to the [143:14] elevators up to the fourth floor, down [143:16] my halls to my office. And I was usually [143:19] making that walk with my head down, [143:21] focused on getting to work as quickly, [143:22] you know, as I could. And I was passing [143:24] all these people by [143:26] without saying hello or hi or whatever, [143:28] and I was missing all these [143:29] opportunities just to brighten my mood [143:31] [snorts] a little bit there. [143:33] And so, I started, you know, doing a [143:34] little happiness walk, a little hello [143:36] walk when I'd go from the door to my [143:37] office. Where I Now, when I walk in, I [143:40] keep my head up, and I smile and say [143:41] hello to almost everybody I pass if I [143:43] can, right? So, this last quarter, [143:45] Nigel's been sitting right here to my [143:47] right when I walk in at the table. And [143:49] Keith, who's got the biggest smile in [143:51] the building, one of our custodial [143:52] staff, is delightful. Mario's usually [143:54] somewhere around the second floor. I can [143:55] give him a shout-out on the on the way [143:57] in. Zaya's often around the elevator [144:00] when I walk in. Eric, Virginia, Jane, [144:03] Emma, Joe, my colleagues when I walk in, [144:06] I give them a shout-out hello when I [144:08] walk by their offices. And that [snorts] [144:10] whole thing that just makes me a little [144:11] brighter when I get to my office. And [144:13] it's also created a habit that I now [144:15] just do without thinking. Right? And [144:18] those little moments that become part of [144:20] who you are, that's what people see. And [144:22] I think as a parent, if you can think [144:24] about how can you cultivate those habits [144:27] to do these things routinely cuz your [144:28] kids are watching all the time, [144:30] that's what's going to matter. I had a [144:31] colleague one time, I thought this was [144:33] very wise. He realized that he was [144:35] sometimes swearing in class. And I [144:36] sometimes I'm guilty of that, too. [144:37] That's my college football player come [144:39] out. I got to be careful. I try not to [144:41] do that. But I had one colleague who was [144:43] adamant, and this is really what got me [144:45] started thinking about this years ago. [144:47] Just you never slip up in class because [144:49] when you do that there, people see that [144:51] and they think that's who you are and [144:53] what's appropriate in that context, and [144:54] that's just not the way you want to be. [144:56] So he's made a habit never never doing [144:58] that anywhere in any part of his life so [145:00] that he also doesn't do it in class. I [145:02] like the notion of classroom rules. It's [145:04] actually the the one of the only ways [145:06] I've survived social media is I I don't [145:08] get into exchanges that I wouldn't get [145:11] into in a in a classroom. [145:12] I also don't honor the presence of [145:14] comments. Uh people can say what they [145:16] want about me uh to a point. Um you [145:19] know, uh but [145:21] when they start attacking each other, [145:23] you know, I always think if I we were [145:24] back in [145:26] an undergraduate graduate or medical [145:27] school classroom, I would never let this [145:29] exchange occur. And and this is my [145:31] website. So [145:32] >> Yeah. Blocked. Right. You know, and [145:34] people think, "Oh, you're blocking [145:35] things. You're deleting them." It's like [145:36] it's not to avoid criticism. It's like [145:38] we're trying to keep a tone of education [145:39] and and respect. Yeah. Right? And and it [145:41] can be heated, but so I fully uh [145:44] appreciate what you just said. [145:45] >> the key to that is that it's it's not a [145:47] huge thing. It's a small thing that you [145:48] do routinely and over and over again and [145:51] that's those small habits are important [145:53] to keep in mind. I've been told by some [145:54] of the people that are regular kind of [145:56] commenters and things that they feel [145:57] safe to comment there, which tells me [145:59] they feel unsafe to comment elsewhere. [146:01] And the safe unsafe thing, I'm not [146:03] trying to like use like snowflake [146:04] language. I think like who wants to go [146:06] online just for people to like be nasty, [146:08] right? So there's a lot of goodness to [146:10] be had by keeping classroom rules, I [146:12] guess as as Correct. Well, Nick, thank [146:15] you so much for coming here today and [146:16] and sharing. I [146:18] I really appreciate you taking the time [146:20] out of your schedule and [146:22] I also really appreciate the work you [146:23] do. Also, thank you for writing the [146:25] book, [146:25] >> [clears throat] [146:25] >> A Little More Social, How Small Choices [146:27] Create Unexpected Happiness, Health, and [146:29] Connection, which comes out very soon. [146:31] Excited to read it. And and I have to [146:34] say of all the guests we've ever had on [146:35] this podcast, [146:38] I think [146:39] you represent the kind of extreme [146:41] example of somebody whose work has [146:43] informed their life and life has [146:45] informed their work. And that's somewhat [146:47] straightforward to do [146:49] when always makes for kind of the [146:51] easier, better, obvious choice. Like, [146:52] "Oh, I did research, discovered, you [146:54] know, the this style of cardiovascular [146:56] exercise is better than that one. I'm [146:57] going to do that one." But as you [146:58] pointed out, it's brought many, many [147:00] rewards than it has uh challenges, but [147:03] in your case, your sensitivity to the [147:05] the the theme of your work, which is [147:08] that there's goodness and [147:11] untapped beauty to be had in the in the [147:13] spaces that we don't reflexively step [147:16] into. And that maybe even we initially [147:19] are a little averse to. [147:20] >> Yeah. That that's where where the real [147:22] magic often lies, and you apply it in [147:25] your own life in the realest [147:27] [clears throat] of ways, and you [147:28] benefit, too. And that's the whole [147:30] point. So, thank you for being [147:32] both a scholar and a shining example of [147:35] of what you've taught us today. Thank [147:36] you so much, Andrew. It's been wonderful [147:38] being here. I really appreciate it. And [147:39] we'll come back again. Thank you. I [147:41] would love to. Thank you for joining me [147:43] for today's discussion with Dr. Nick [147:45] Epley. To learn more about his work and [147:47] to find a link to his new book entitled [147:49] A Little More Social, How Small Choices [147:51] Create Unexpected Happiness, Health, and [147:54] Connection, please see the links in the [147:55] show note captions. If you're learning [147:57] from and/or enjoying this podcast, [147:59] please subscribe to our YouTube channel. [148:01] That's a terrific zero-cost way to [148:02] support us. In addition, please follow [148:04] the podcast by clicking the follow [148:06] button on both Spotify and Apple. And on [148:08] both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us [148:10] up to a five-star review. And you can [148:12] now leave us comments at both Spotify [148:14] and Apple. 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