FDA Crackdown Drives $10 Billion Grey Market for Chinese Peptides

FDA严打行动催生百亿美元中国多肽灰色市场 对未经批准的治疗性化合物的限制使得普通消费者在地下自行注射变得常态化，尽管存在肿瘤加速恶化和严重剂量错误的重大风险，他们依然绕过了医疗监督。 本次讨论涵盖了广泛的多肽种类，包括BPC-157、GHK-Cu、pinealon、epithalon以及GLP-1受体激动剂，重点介绍了它们在组织修复、昼夜节律生物学和免疫调节方面的机制。Dr. Bakri解释了胸腺的生理作用以及胸腺素α-1（Thymosin Alpha-1）等化合物的影响，同时审慎探讨了生长激素促泌剂。讨论权衡了这些化合物巨大的治疗潜力与对肿瘤加速风险、法律复杂性以及不受监管的灰色市场采购危险的严肃考量。 BPC-157引发了关于血管生成以及可能加速现有未检出恶性肿瘤风险的担忧，尽管目前尚未记录到临床观察到的加速恶化现象。 (41:52) 现有关于BPC-157的绝大多数动物数据均来自克罗地亚Dr. Sikirić领导的单一研究团队，而美国目前正在开展一项追踪腘绳肌恢复情况的人体二期临床试验。 (41:32) 由于BPC-157从未获得美国FDA正式批准作为药物，它越来越多地作为口服膳食补充剂在网络上流通销售。 (61:22) Pinealon（EDR）由Dr. Vladimir Khavinson在苏联军方旨在优化人员身体素质的背景下发现，是一种通过减少慢波睡眠和增加快速眼动（REM）睡眠来改变睡眠结构的三肽。 (68:05) 多肽生物调节剂遵循累积效应模型运作，即短期的暂态给药即可产生长期的基因和健康获益，这与需要持续服用的常规药物形成了鲜明对比。 (85:10)

Dr. Abud Bakri and Andrew Huberman examine the therapeutic science, clinical applications, and regulatory ambiguities surrounding peptide therapies, contrasting well-mapped metabolic agents with less understood bioregulators. They argue that while peptides show notable regenerative and regulatory potential, widespread consumer adoption through grey-market channels heavily outpaces rigorous human clinical validation. Receptor Targets and Epigenetic Mechanisms (3:13) Dr. Bakri divides peptides into two broad functional categories: those that bind to defined, well-mapped cellular receptors, such as GLP-1 receptor agonists, and those without an identified target receptor, such as BPC-157 or Thymosin Beta-4. In the absence of an identifiable receptor, certain peptides are theorized to act either on unknown targets or as direct epigenetic modifiers. For example, Soviet-researched short-chain peptides such as Pinealon—referred to by the speakers as EDR based on its amino-acid sequence—modulate gene expression by binding directly to DNA grooves to alter chromatin accessibility. Unlike traditional pharmaceutical compounds that require continuous systemic presence to sustain clinical outcomes, peptide bioregulators often follow an accrual model. In historical Russian longevity frameworks, short periodic administration cycles were observed to yield persistent gene-regulatory benefits long after treatment cessation, shifting cellular transcription toward youthful physiological states. BPC-157 in Regeneration, Neurology, and Regulation (6:26) Derived from protective gastric secretions studied by Croatian researchers beginning in 1991, BPC-157 accelerates tissue healing across tendons, ligaments, and peripheral nerves via vascular endothelial growth factor (VEGF) pathways. Dr. Bakri clarifies that while BPC-157 can enhance rehabilitation and post-surgical tendon repairs, it cannot physically rejoin completely severed structures like a torn ACL. Beyond musculoskeletal effects, rodent models demonstrate that BPC-157 stabilizes central neurochemistry: it mitigates alcohol intoxication, prevents fatal alcohol withdrawal, and blunts dopaminergic swings—mirroring clinical patient reports where oral BPC-157 reportedly neutralizes the therapeutic effects of prescribed Adderall. Regulatory and legal landscapes around BPC-157 remain contested. In late 2024, the FDA reclassified BPC-157 from Category 1 compounding to Category 2 (prohibited), prompting compounding pharmacies to bypass restrictions by altering its formulation into pentadecapeptide arginate (PDA) salts before the drug was placed into Category 3 evaluation. Independent human validation remains sparse; because peptide patents are notoriously weak and held across generic or international entities, pharmaceutical firms lack the financial incentives to fund comprehensive randomized controlled trials. Thymic Rejuvenation and Circadian Bioregulators (82:48) The human thymus undergoes progressive atrophy following puberty, steadily degrading immune surveillance and T-cell generation. Modern trials, such as Greg Fahy’s TRIM trial, demonstrate that combining growth hormone, metformin, and DHEA over 12 months can produce measurable thymic tissue regrowth on MRI scans while downregulating immune exhaustion markers such as PD-1. Additional thymic derivatives play distinct regulatory roles: Thymosin Beta-4 (TB-4) modulates actin cytoskeletal motility to accelerate cellular migration, while animal research indicates thymulin sensitizes peripheral organs to pituitary hormone signaling like LH and ACTH. Complementing thymic therapies, bioregulatory peptides derived from organ extracts show pronounced systemic effects. In a 15-year Russian nursing home trial conducted by Vladimir Khavinson, cyclical administration of epitalamin and thymalin was associated with marked reductions in cardiovascular and cancer mortality. Epitalon upregulates clock gene expression in peripheral lymphocytes to stabilize healthy morning-to-night cortisol gradients, while cortex-derived EDR directly shifts sleep architecture by amplifying REM dream sleep when administered mid-cycle. GLP-1 Dynamics, Grey Markets, and Safety Risks (0:00) The widespread adoption of GLP-1 receptor agonists (semaglutide, tirzepatide, retatrutide) has normalized self-injection, paving the way for public interest in other peptides. In performance and executive settings, these are frequently grouped into a "trinity stack" alongside human growth hormone (or GHRH secretagogues like tesamorelin) and testosterone replacement therapy to accelerate fat loss and lean mass retention. However, GLP-1 agonists raise systemic signaling by thousandfold levels compared to native physiology; stopping them frequently removes central satiety cues, causing patients to rapidly regain weight to baseline settling points. Supply shortages and prohibitive pharmaceutical costs have fueled a domestic grey market estimated at $5 to $10 billion in 2025, operating via unregulated "for research purposes only" web storefronts. The speakers emphasize that nearly all active pharmaceutical ingredients (APIs) for both compounding pharmacies and grey-market sites originate from chemical synthesis facilities in China. While peptides do not possess direct mutagenic properties like chemical carcinogens, their potent angiogenic and growth-factor mechanisms introduce theoretical risks of accelerating pre-existing, undetected tumors, necessitating careful physician-led oversight and routine biomarker tracking of IGF-1 and PSA levels. Peptide therapies present substantial therapeutic opportunities across tissue regeneration, metabolic control, and endocrine modulation, yet the field remains clouded by weak patent protections, shifting FDA compounding statuses, and a massive, unregulated grey market. Resolving these challenges will require standardized nomenclature, independent human randomized controlled trials, and clinical oversight to balance potent regenerative claims against unmapped long-term safety risks.

Dr. Abud Bakri 与 Andrew Huberman 深入探讨了多肽在代谢调控、组织再生与抗衰老领域的生物学机制及应用边界，指出该领域虽蕴含颠覆性医疗潜力，但目前深受高质量人体临床试验匮乏、监管拉锯及地下供应链安全隐患的多重制约。 受体靶向与表观遗传：多肽分类及机制 (3:13) Dr. Bakri 将多肽定义为人体细胞间信息传递的固有生物语言，并在临床与科学维度将其划分为两大类：具有明确靶受体的多肽，以及缺乏明确靶受体的多肽。这一划分决定了其临床效应的可预测性与强度。例如，GLP-1 受体激动剂与经过精准测绘的特异性受体相互作用，产生稳定且一致的强效代谢结果；而像 BPC-157 或 TB-4 这类分子，至今尚未发现其清晰的单一特异性受体。 针对缺乏已知受体却能触发全身级生物效应的现象，Dr. Bakri 提出两种科学假说：其一是靶向受体尚未被现代检测手段捕获，其二是多肽本身作为表观遗传修饰剂发挥功能。例如苏联学者研发的 Pinealon 等小分子寡肽，能够直接结合到染色质的 DNA 沟槽中，通过改变染色质的物理开闭状态直接调节靶基因转录，而非依赖传统的细胞膜表面受体信号级联转导。 BPC-157：组织修复假说与中枢稳态调节 (52:54) BPC-157 源自 1991 年克罗地亚研究团队基于巴甫洛夫胃液疗法与汉斯·塞利应激反应模型的探索，原本是胃黏膜自身分泌的器官保护肽。动物实验表明，该肽能显著加速肌腱、韧带损伤及周围神经通路的修复；Dr. Bakri 分享了其局部注射治愈严重二级肱三头肌撕裂的个人临床个案，但他明确强调该化合物绝无法凭空重新附着已完全撕脱的韧带，且目前绝大多数前临床数据仅出自克罗地亚单一实验室，美国针对腘绳肌腱的二期人体试验仍在进行中。 除了骨骼肌系统的再生，BPC-157 对中枢神经系统展现出反常的“双向稳态中和效应”。动物实验显示其既能减轻小鼠急性酒精中毒程度，又能阻断酒精戒断引发的致命生理反应，并能钝化甲基苯丙胺的极度兴奋与戒断症状；在替代医学临床反馈中，多动症患者普遍报告使用口服 BPC-157 后其处方药 Adderall 的多巴胺峰值被完全削弱。肿瘤风险方面，Bakri 澄清 BPC-157 并非致突变剂，动物文献中未见类似代谢废案 Cardarine 那样的致癌信号，但因其具备促进 VEGF 血管新生的特性，理论上存在促进体内未检出微小肿瘤血供生长的潜在隐患。 俄系生物调节肽与胸腺衰老干预研究 (83:51) 与传统制药要求持续按周或按日给药不同，苏联科学家 Vladimir Khavinson 提出的生物调节肽（如 Epitalon、Pinealon 及胸腺提取物 Thymalin）遵循“累积增益模型”。这类短链二肽与三肽具备极高口服生物利用度，受试者每年仅需进行 10 至 20 天的间歇性给药，即可诱导细胞核内持久的表观遗传重塑。一项为期 15 年的俄罗斯老年疗养院队列研究指出，间歇接受 Epitalamin 与 Thymalin 联合治疗的老人，其心血管疾病、严重感染与恶性肿瘤的死亡率显著低于安慰剂对照组。 胸腺衰退被视为免疫衰老的核心瓶颈，正常人体胸腺在青春期后迅速脂肪化萎缩，并在急性感染后发生短暂退化。Dr. Greg Fahy 主导的 TRIM 人体临床试验证明，采用重组人生长激素、二甲双胍与 DHEA 联合干预 12 个月，磁共振成像（MRI）可确认胸腺实质体积实现再生，CD4 与 CD8 T 细胞数量增加并伴随 PD-1 耗竭标志物下调。此外，动物实验显示胸腺肽 Thymulin 能够特异性增强睾丸等末梢器官对垂体促性腺激素（如 hCG）的生理敏感性，揭示了免疫稳态与性腺分泌之间紧密演化的负反馈控制回路。 GLP-1代谢革命与神经系统长期依赖风险 (140:25) 以司美格鲁肽、替尔泊肽及在研三靶点激动剂 Retatrutide 为代表的 GLP-1 药物，与生长激素促泌剂及睾酮替代疗法构成了当下流行的“三位一体”体能改造方案。此类现代多肽药物通过引入超生理浓度（较人体内源性基线放大上千倍）的肽链信号，实现了 10% 至 30% 的系统性体重削减，有效阻断了由肥胖与二型糖尿病引发的公共医疗系统崩溃。但极高剂量也带来了严峻的临床挑战，不合规的剂量滴定极易触发爆发性剧烈呕吐等急性消化道副反应。 长期的神经认知与精神影响同样引发了学术警惕。食欲受控于下丘脑整合 GIP、GLP 与胰岛素等多重激素的每日动态计算，一旦停药，失去外源强信号压制的大脑“定点理论”（Set point theory）会驱动体重迅速反弹至初始基线，迫使年轻群体面临终生注射的困境。临床与轶事数据中频现的快感缺乏与心理动力减退报告表明，超生理剂量的外源多肽可能深度重构多巴胺奖赏回路，且极高剂量暴露对青少年未发育成熟大脑神经可塑性的远期后果仍属科学盲区。 灰市泛滥、监管拉锯与原料药供应链困境 (161:56) 公众注射行为的普及推动了庞大地下灰色市场的爆发。据对话估算，仅美国在 2025 年用于采购“仅供科研”名义多肽的资金已达 50 亿至 100 亿美元。监管政策层面，美国 FDA 在 2024 年底突然将 BPC-157 等 20 余种多肽列入严禁药房复合配制的 Category 2 清单；复合药房随即通过改变阴离子配体（由醋酸盐改造为精氨酸盐 PDA）利用监管漏洞规避禁令，直至 2025 年 4 月 BPC-157 被重新划归至仍处审评状态的 Category 3。 供应链与研发激励存在结构性断裂。受制于西方本土高昂的化学合成成本，全球商业复合药房及灰市网站流通的多肽原料药（API）几乎全部合成并产自中国工厂，产品批次间的实际纯度与有效性缺乏独立监管。同时，由于天然多肽分子的专利排他性极易被微小氨基酸序列修饰规避，传统大型制药企业缺乏斥资数亿美元推进大规模随机双盲临床对照试验的经济动力，导致循证证据长期停滞于动物模型与小样本个案统计。 多肽科学正处于前沿生物机制探索与灰色自我实验蔓延的危险交界点。若其修复与免疫再生潜力最终证实确凿，当前的监管壁垒与循证滞后将导致无数病患错失安全治疗机会；若其长期促增殖或神经受损隐患被坐实，数以百万计自行注射未监管制剂的年轻人已深陷健康风险。突破这一两难困局的前提，在于破除地缘学术偏见，开展由专业医师主导并结合内分泌生物标志物追踪的高质量人体临床验证。

[41:32] Dr. Abud Bakri: the safest thing in the world [43:52] Dr. Abud Bakri: the cat's out of the bag [48:39] Dr. Abud Bakri: fix the ulcered gut [52:54] Dr. Abud Bakri: magically reattach an ACL that's torn [61:22] wild west [68:05] Dr. Abud Bakri: gold standard American research [109:13] Andrew Huberman: Please don't inject it in your face [114:54] Andrew Huberman: Raise my hand, Professor Bachery... I really feel like I'm in school. This is so cool for me. I'm truly in heaven right now. [124:01] you have to get lean enough and healthy enough to be able to take growth hormone [132:31] there's this thing called sunlight [152:24] I've never had Charizard like projectile vomiting [161:56] research only [164:32] Andrew Huberman: virtuoso level [165:35] Andrew Huberman: Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body

[0:00] People are now stacking their GLP-1 as [0:03] their insulin sensitivity tool, their [0:05] growth hormone or their GHR [0:07] >> and their androin modulation therapies [0:10] as this trinity stack [0:11] >> trinity stuff [0:12] >> to get very fit, very healthy quickly. [0:15] So a lot of these transformations you [0:16] see in CEOs and celebrities and stuff is [0:18] using a combination of those three [0:20] things. You know your TRT plus teptide [0:22] or retride whatever it may be and then [0:25] using a growth hormone modulation [0:27] whether if you can afford growth hormone [0:28] or testimon. And you're seeing people [0:30] lose a lot of fat gain a lot of muscle [0:33] in short amounts of time. Is that [0:34] healthy? We'll find out. But [snorts] [0:36] that is like the celebrity protocol. [0:38] Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast [0:40] where we discuss science [music] and [0:42] science-based tools for everyday life. [0:46] >> [music] [0:47] >> I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor [0:49] of neurobiology and opthalmology at [0:52] Stanford School of Medicine. My guest [0:54] today is Dr. Abu Bakri, an internal [0:57] medicine physician who is also extremely [0:59] knowledgeable on the science and use of [1:01] peptides. When I say peptides, I mean [1:04] both FDA approved peptides such as the [1:06] GLP agonist. You probably know these as [1:09] things like Ompic, Monaro, and [1:11] Retatrutide, as well as peptides such as [1:13] body protection compound 157 or BPC57, [1:18] which as you'll learn today has a very [1:20] long history of being used in humans for [1:22] gut health and tissue repair, and many [1:25] interesting studies in animals [1:27] supporting its potential use in humans, [1:29] but a minimum of formal studies in [1:31] humans, meaning one. We discuss BPC-157, [1:35] what it does and how, as well as things [1:38] like growth hormone secrets like [1:40] tessamarellin, MK677 and others. And we [1:43] talk about things like GHK copper, which [1:45] nowadays many people are using to [1:47] promote collagen synthesis and repair [1:49] for aesthetic reasons like improving [1:51] skin, hair, and so on. We also talk [1:54] about peptides that have been studied [1:55] for the purpose of DNA repair and [1:57] longevity like epithelen and pinealin [1:59] which also have been touted to improve [2:01] REM sleep and for improving cognitive [2:03] function. You'll also learn what is [2:05] known and what is not known about these [2:07] peptides both in terms of function and [2:09] safety. During today's episode, you will [2:11] come to appreciate that Dr. Bachri has [2:13] truly encyclopedic knowledge about these [2:15] peptides. He is also formerly trained as [2:18] a physician and as a consequence you [2:20] will learn how to think about peptides [2:22] based on whether or not they have known [2:23] receptors or not. That turns out to be [2:25] very important and what their real [2:27] safety profiles are as well as what [2:30] particular concerns you ought to have if [2:32] you are considering using peptides of [2:34] any kind. As a formerly trained [2:36] board-certified physician, he comes at [2:38] this topic through the lens of a [2:40] physician, but also somebody who is very [2:42] interested in the current status and [2:44] future of peptide medicine. Today's [2:46] discussion, thanks to Dr. Bacher, is a [2:48] true masterclass on peptides. By the end [2:51] of today's discussion, I promise you, [2:52] again, thanks to him, that you will be [2:55] among the most informed, doctor or [2:57] otherwise, about peptides from the GLPS [3:00] to BPC57 and all the others that I [3:02] mentioned, including some that I didn't [3:04] mention here in the introduction. So, it [3:06] is a real gift and honor to have this [3:08] knowledge presented to all of us. So, [3:10] buckle up. You're about to learn a lot [3:13] about peptides. Before we begin, I'd [3:15] like to emphasize that this podcast is [3:17] separate from my teaching and research [3:19] roles at Stanford. It is however part of [3:21] my desire and effort to bring zero cost [3:23] to consumer information about science [3:24] and science related tools to the general [3:26] public. In keeping with that theme, [3:28] today's episode does include sponsors. [3:30] And now for my discussion with Dr. Abu [3:33] Bakri. Dr. Abu Bakri, welcome. Good to [3:36] be here. Peptides, huge topic and huge [3:41] category of biology and medicine. So, we [3:44] should start off by breaking this into [3:46] categories so that people can wrap their [3:48] minds around it because that word [3:50] peptides has come to mean stuff people [3:53] buy and take and maybe should or [3:55] shouldn't buy and take. But there's a [3:57] lot of important and quite simple [4:00] biology to understand before anyone [4:03] should even be thinking about any of [4:05] that. So if I just push the word [4:08] peptides towards you, how do you carve [4:10] that up in terms of thinking about it as [4:12] an MD as a clinician and maybe also put [4:15] yourself into the mind of a interested [4:18] let's call it a peptide curious person [4:20] out there. So scientifically I would say [4:23] it's one of the languages of the human [4:24] body right so the body likes these [4:27] different languages to communicate [4:28] between cells going from DNA to RNA to [4:30] proteins which are can be broken down as [4:32] polyeptides and peptides and peptides [4:35] are one of these languages steroid [4:36] hormones are another language and then [4:38] peptides can be broken down further into [4:40] subcategories whether or not they have [4:42] receptors or they have no receptor [4:45] >> and that kind of changes the clinical [4:46] effects we'll see like the GLP1's which [4:47] have a very strong clinical effect [4:50] compared to these obscure peptides like [4:52] BBC57, TB500, TB4 that don't have a [4:55] clear target. [4:56] >> They have receptors but they just have [4:58] many of them or they don't even have [4:59] receptors. [4:59] >> We don't have a receptor identified for [5:01] BBC57 or TB4. Just stopping you right [5:03] there. There's a very interesting [5:04] distinction. I don't think anyone else [5:06] has described peptides this way. [5:08] >> Let's take BPC57 for the moment. We're [5:11] going to talk a lot about it today. If [5:12] it doesn't have a receptor, what are [5:15] some ways that it could impact cells and [5:17] organs and so forth? Or is it that there [5:21] are receptors, we just don't know what [5:23] they are? [5:23] >> It could be that the latter [5:24] [clears throat] that maybe the the [5:25] receptor is still elusive or it could be [5:27] that it's modifying certain proteins [5:29] that already exist or linking different [5:31] pepi uh proteins together in a more [5:33] favorable fashion for gene [5:34] transcription. The Russian peptides are [5:36] all epigenetic modifiers that they bind [5:38] to the groove of the DNA in certain [5:39] spots that either open up or close the [5:41] chromatin to certain areas of genetic [5:43] expression. And they've modeled this out [5:44] >> like a steroid hormone. So steroid [5:46] hormones bind like they bind to a like [5:48] the andro receptor binds DHT or [5:50] testosterone goes into the nucleus turns [5:52] on all the androgenic genes. [5:53] >> Yeah. Like puberty is a good example of [5:55] that. [5:55] >> Yes. Exactly. Exactly. So like pinealon [5:57] that we've talked about uh shuttles uh [5:59] heat shock proteins with androen [6:01] receptors. [6:02] >> Got it. So if I just pause us for a [6:04] second, we should think about this word [6:07] peptides in two major categories at [6:09] least. Yep. [6:10] >> One is has known receptors [6:13] >> plural like the GLPS. Y [6:14] >> the other category would be does not [6:17] have known receptors might have [6:18] receptors but can definitely impact [6:21] biology in interesting ways or so say [6:23] the animal data. [6:24] >> Yep. [6:25] >> Okay. [6:25] >> A lot of animal data. [6:26] >> All right. I know a lot of people are [6:27] interested in GLPs and I want to go [6:29] there. But because I know most people [6:32] are probably listening to this foremost [6:34] because they want to hear about the [6:35] other stuff. Let's start with BPC57. [6:39] What is it? What do we know about it? [6:42] We'll explore safety and what is your [6:45] stance on it from the perspective of a [6:47] consumer and a clinician. So first of [6:49] all, what is BPC57? [6:51] >> The best way to look at it is, you know, [6:52] as humans, we've been looking for [6:54] medicines in plants for thousands of [6:56] years. And in the last, let's say 150 [6:59] years, we've been looking for medicines [7:00] in cells. So animal derived versus plant [7:03] plant derived medicines is the way to [7:04] think about it. You think about aspirin, [7:06] you think about metformin, the statins, [7:07] those were all discovered in you know [7:10] plant tissues. um stats more so fungi [7:12] but you get the point. Now we've been [7:14] looking into animal tissues to find [7:17] cures, medicines, treatments. So a group [7:20] in Croatia in the '90s looks out for [7:24] this peptide called BPC that they they [7:26] and eventually named BPC. It's a $40,000 [7:29] dolton giant peptide called BPC. BBC7 is [7:33] 15 amino acids from that giant peptide. [7:35] We don't naturally make BPC157. That's [7:38] what you'll commonly hear online. We [7:39] make BBC the big uh protein. Did this [7:42] group go looking for body protection [7:46] compound? For those that aren't familiar [7:48] in the laboratory, you can take a [7:49] tissue, grind it up. You can do what's [7:51] called fractionation. You can start [7:52] separating basically cells and tissues [7:54] and liquids according to the size of [7:56] different proteins. Like different [7:58] filters will bring let just like certain [7:59] filters will let sand through or pebbles [8:01] through or boulders through. That's kind [8:02] of what you do. And then you figure out [8:04] what the sequences are and then you [8:05] throw them on cells or put them into [8:07] animals and you try and figure out what [8:08] they do. Why were they motivated to look [8:10] for what eventually became BPC? So [8:13] Pavlov, the famous uh scientist that [8:16] would do the dog the experiments on the [8:17] dogs with the bell and and making the [8:19] dogs salivate. The other work he did was [8:21] on gastric juices of dogs. What he'd do [8:23] is he'd put a hole in the dogs stomachs. [8:25] He would um feed them food and then get [8:27] the gastric juices and sell that as a [8:29] medicine. [8:29] >> That's how he made his money. [8:30] >> Yeah, that was part of his business. [8:31] >> So he got a Nobel Prize. He was also [8:33] kind of like what did he have a like a [8:35] um a call code? It was like like enter [8:38] pavlova for for discount at checkout. [8:40] Yeah. Amazing. [8:41] >> So this is BBC before BBC57 exists. [8:44] There's probably other peptides and [8:45] compounds in there, but they they found [8:46] that gastric juices had positive effects [8:49] on healing on people that had, you know, [8:51] gird and these kind of [8:52] >> Wait, so people were taking BPC in the [8:54] time of Pavlov? [8:55] >> They didn't know what BBC was. They were [8:56] taking gastric juices from dogs [8:57] >> for what? [8:58] >> GI distress, GI discomfort. Uh some [9:00] people were trying for wound healing. [9:02] There was a big push in this era for [9:03] like finding animal tissues and putting [9:06] them into humans. That science fizzled [9:07] out. At the same time, there's a [9:09] scientist Hansely that's coming up with [9:12] uh the stress adaptation theory and he [9:14] notices that animals are stressed out. [9:15] Three things happens to them. Their [9:16] adrenals get really big so they make [9:18] more cortisol. Their gastric lining gets [9:20] destroyed and then their thymus gland [9:22] and their lymphatics shrink down. And he [9:24] he has this published paper where you [9:26] have clear adrenal from a stressed [9:27] animal versus a non-stressed animal. A [9:29] thymus from an animal that's stressed [9:30] versus not. So this group is looking and [9:33] thinking hey Pavlov had this gastric [9:36] juice. Hansely said that there was [9:38] damage when during stress there must be [9:40] some kind of cytorotective or [9:41] organoprotective compound in the gut. [9:44] The stomach is a very rich endocrine uh [9:46] tissue. It makes ghrelin all these other [9:48] hormones. So they're like there must be [9:49] something else in the gut juice that [9:51] protects the gut lining from further [9:53] damage. [9:54] >> Were people drinking the gastric juices [9:55] of dogs? Were they injecting them? [9:58] >> Drinking was mo mostly what they did. [9:59] And it was supposed to be a medical [10:01] elixir presumably. It had many many [10:03] things in it, many peptides. Not [10:05] >> this pepsia and like upset stomach and [10:07] this kind of stuff is what people were [10:09] thinking. [10:09] >> Do the reports point to the fact that it [10:10] might have worked independent of what [10:12] was sold on uh Dr. Pavlov's non-existent [10:16] website. [10:16] >> This was in like the early 1900s. And [10:19] then uh Soia was what 1930s [10:22] >> I think. So yeah, 100 years ago. [10:24] >> Someone will correct us if we're wrong. [10:25] And this other group in Croatia [10:26] >> was 91. [10:28] >> 91. Okay, [10:30] >> their first paper talks about this like, [10:31] hey, there must be some kind of [10:33] compound. They they identified the big [10:34] 40 Dalton protein BPC. And then they [10:37] they were like, what's what's causing [10:38] the actual biological effects? They [10:40] identified BPC57, the 15 amino acid [10:43] peptide that's causing all these [10:44] effects. There's actually more peptides [10:45] in gastric juices that some other [10:47] scientists may or may not have already [10:49] identified. This field of peptides going [10:50] to be very interesting because almost [10:52] every organ has a signature of peptides. [10:55] Like if you think back Dr. Vladimir [10:56] Vulvich in 1850s 1880s finds carnosine [11:01] and carnitine in muscle of cattle. So [11:03] you can think that the first peptides [11:05] that are found are carnosine and then [11:06] carnitine is the amino acid that's that [11:09] have positive effects on strength [11:10] training and performance and different [11:12] effects there. But that was the whole [11:14] idea is like hey there's muscle peptides [11:16] that may have muscle effects, right? Gut [11:18] peptides might have gut effects. [11:20] >> So this Croatian group um isolates this [11:22] 15 amino acid kind of mini segment Yep. [11:25] of BPC. They and others start injecting [11:27] into mice inducing injuries to nerve to [11:30] tendon. Maybe describe a few of those [11:32] effects. I' I'm familiar with that [11:33] literature, but I can tell that you are [11:35] far more familiar with it. So, what are [11:36] some of the impressive effects that they [11:38] observed that led to where we are today? [11:42] So, they did all kinds of horrible [11:43] things to these mice. They would, you [11:45] know, sever tendons and then give them [11:47] BPC through oral or injectable [11:49] intraparitinal uh administrations and [11:51] they'd have faster healing times. They [11:53] would sever ACL of the mice. they would [11:55] uh do burn wounds. So when a patient has [11:57] a burn wound in like the ICU, they end [11:59] up having crazy gastric ulcers, but if [12:01] they were able to put BBC on topically [12:03] for the mouse, they would have no [12:04] gastric ulcers. They name it as this [12:06] anti-stress compound is how they they [12:08] they look at it. Now, when they do that [12:10] Achilles paper on the mice, that's what [12:12] explodes the bodybuilder interest and [12:14] leads us to today where we are like, oh, [12:16] MSK injuries must be BPC, tendons and [12:18] and and and muscle injuries. But the [12:21] original idea of BBC was to use it as a [12:23] gastric treatment, not to use it as a [12:25] muscoskeleletal. [12:27] I'd like to take a quick break and [12:28] acknowledge our sponsor eight. Eightle [12:31] makes smart mattress covers with [12:33] cooling, heating, and sleep tracking [12:34] capacity. 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If you [14:37] would like to try Lingo, Hubberman Lab [14:39] listeners in the US and UK can save 10% [14:41] on a four-week plan. Just visit [14:43] hellingo.com/huberman [14:45] for more information. Terms and [14:47] conditions apply. Again, that's [14:49] hellingo.com/huberman. [14:52] >> Let me pause you here. People are [14:53] probably saying, should I take it or [14:54] should I? Just hang in there, folks, [14:55] because this is really, really [14:57] important. What is so striking to me [14:59] about BPC and by the way that's not an [15:02] endorsement for BPC. Just what's so [15:03] striking to me because my lab worked for [15:05] a long time on optic nerve repair and [15:07] [clears throat] neural regeneration. [15:08] Nerves don't like to regenerate in the [15:09] central nervous system. Peripheral [15:10] nervous system they do it they do it [15:12] slowly but they do it. [15:13] >> Yep. [15:13] >> Not in the central nervous system. Ask [15:15] anyone [clears throat] who's had a [15:16] stroke or an optic nerve injury. It's a [15:18] tough road at best. There are data that [15:22] I've seen with my own eyes that show [15:24] that, you know, you can accelerate [15:27] healing of tendon, of ligament, of nerve [15:31] pathways [15:32] >> in animals. Yes. [15:32] >> In animals. Yes. Thank you. And that it [15:35] just generally promotes quote unquote [15:38] repair. [15:39] >> Yep. [15:39] >> That's kind of weird. [15:40] >> It is weird, [15:41] >> right? Because I could spend the next 10 [15:43] hours or more telling you about all the [15:45] ways that people have tried to get [15:46] nerves to regenerate and couldn't. And [15:48] as you point out, this thing doesn't [15:51] really have one specific at least known [15:52] receptor. [15:54] >> So the data on the gut make a lot of [15:56] sense. This is after all a gut peptide. [15:58] It makes sense that that gut peptide [16:00] could get lots of places in the body, [16:01] right? [16:02] >> But what is it doing mechanistically if [16:04] we know to support regeneration or [16:06] replenishment of all these different [16:08] tissue types? Because a neuron is a very [16:10] different cell type than, you know, a [16:13] fiberblast or one of the bits of [16:15] collagen that make up different [16:16] connective tissues. It's modulating a [16:19] lot of these growth and healing pathways [16:21] like in the models of damaging the [16:25] endothelial layer or the epithelial [16:27] layer of different tissues. You'll get [16:29] more veg f signaling. So that's the the [16:31] vascular endothelial growth factor. So [16:33] get more blood vessels andises being [16:34] formed which creates a lot of the [16:35] controversy around BBC safety. You'll [16:38] get cell migration especially when [16:40] coupled with TB500 and TB4. you'll get, [16:42] you know, more access of the healing [16:44] factors to the area through androgenic [16:46] pathways. On top of that, you'll get an [16:48] anti-stress effect. So, the other big [16:50] thing that they did was they'd give [16:51] corticosteroids with BPC57 to these [16:54] mice. And usually when you have a wound [16:56] and you you give corticosteroids, the [16:57] corticosteroids will slow or even stop [17:00] the wound healing from happening. When [17:01] BPC was administered, the the the [17:04] healing was either the same or even [17:05] better. [17:05] >> Is BPC considered anti-inflammatory? [17:08] Because based on what you just said, it [17:10] almost seems like it helps maintain some [17:12] of the pro-inflammatory response. Some [17:14] people might be thinking, why would you [17:16] want inflammation? What Dr. Bockery just [17:17] said is if you block inflammation with [17:20] cortosteroids, [17:21] >> you aren't going to call in the signals [17:23] to repair tissues. So lowering [17:25] inflammation is a dicey thing that maybe [17:27] we set aside for later in the [17:29] conversation if we have time. But is it [17:30] thought that BPC is lowering [17:32] inflammation or is just somehow hitting [17:34] the gas pedal on all these regenerative [17:36] restorative biological processes? [17:38] >> It's more putting the gas pedal on these [17:40] processes to bring in the immune system, [17:43] the healing factors. For example, in one [17:45] tendon model, they noticed that it [17:46] increased the amount of growth hormone [17:48] receptors on the tendon. So [17:50] theoretically, this would allow more [17:52] growth hormone to dock in and cause the [17:53] outgrowth of the tendon and the and the [17:55] regrowth of it. So there's that theory [17:57] there. downstream it'll modulate uh [17:59] nitric oxide synthesis. So that's a big [18:01] thing when it comes to wound healing [18:02] because you need to to dilate the blood [18:04] vessels, you need to call in different [18:05] cells. So it's really changing the way [18:07] cells behave at that level, but that's [18:09] only for like the tendon side of it. [18:11] They also did weird things on the [18:12] neurological side like they would make [18:15] these mice drunk, okay? And they would [18:18] then give them BBC and they'd get less [18:20] drunk and when they go through mazes. [18:21] >> Oh boy. [18:22] >> Okay. [18:23] >> We did not just recommend you take BBC [18:25] with alcohol. want to be very clear. Um, [18:28] but people are going, you know, we'll do [18:29] their own interpretation. So, I'm being [18:31] semi facicious, but very interesting. [18:33] >> And then also, they would give them get [18:34] the mice drunk and then have them [18:35] withdraw from alcohol and like [18:37] withdrawal is deadly. If we have a [18:38] patient in the hospital that [18:39] withdrawals, they could die during that [18:40] withdrawal if they're not given [18:41] benzoasipines. They got BPC and they [18:43] didn't have the withdrawal symptoms. I'm [18:45] like, what's going on here? This is a [18:47] very interesting compound. I think it [18:48] gets it gets all the hype for the MSK [18:50] stuff, but I think the neurological [18:52] neuroscychiatric, let's say, and then [18:53] gastric effects are way more interesting [18:55] when it comes to that because it's [18:56] modulating the gut brain access in an [18:58] interesting way. We'll have people come [18:59] to us and they're like, "My aderall is [19:01] not working since I've been taking oral [19:02] BPC." Are they happy with that effect? [19:04] >> No, they're not happy. They're very mad [19:05] because like it seems like it's blunting [19:07] their aderall. [snorts] [19:08] >> So, it's doing something from dopanergic [19:10] signaling both on both sides, both [19:11] withdrawal uh when it comes to like the [19:13] gapurgic side, but also the the peak of [19:16] signaling. So if you like peruse Reddit, [19:18] which you should never do, um you'll [19:20] find all these anhidonia discussions [19:22] about BBC, people feel like depressed [19:24] and low energy. [19:25] >> Incredible seems to be [19:27] >> in terms of effects in animals and [19:29] anecdotal reports in humans because I [19:32] think both your and my excitement about [19:35] this might be occupying a substantial [19:38] amount of the force field here. Let's do [19:40] something that normally I would do in a [19:42] few minutes. I'm going to ask you some [19:43] very direct questions about this and you [19:45] and I don't hold you responsible as [19:47] being like BPC uh you know spokesperson [19:50] but here you are. Um that's Pavlov's [19:52] job. Um and he's dead. [19:56] Are there any known adverse events of [19:59] from people taking BPC known and [20:02] documented? Okay. adverse events where [20:06] it's unrelated to uh contamination or [20:09] something of that sort. [20:10] >> In the literature, when it comes to um [20:12] the animal data, they've injected [20:14] animals with, you know, a thousand times [20:15] the dose of BPC with no real adverse [20:18] effects. So there's we don't even know [20:19] the LD50 of BPC, which makes it hard for [20:21] it to become an FDA approved. [20:22] >> Maybe define LD50. [20:23] >> LD50 is is the dose of which would kill [20:25] 50% of the animals if it was [20:26] administered to them. So we don't even [20:28] know what that is. And that's actually [20:29] an important number as as you know [20:31] barbaric as it sounds to determine for [20:33] any drug. What's the LD50 for caffeine? [20:35] What's the LD50 for aspirin? What's the [20:36] L? This is every drug you take folks on [20:39] or off the counter you know prescription [20:41] or non-prescription has gone through [20:42] LD50 testing in animals. [20:44] >> To be a clinician to prescribe this, we [20:45] need to know what that is which which [20:46] limits us. Now there was two very small [20:49] phase one and phase 2 trials on rectal [20:51] BPC enemas um in the early 2000s from [20:55] that same coration group. So that's the [20:56] big concern of BBC. all the data comes [20:58] from one group. So people can be [20:59] skeptical. There's a couple of Chinese [21:01] groups that have also replicated some of [21:02] their work. But uh those groups wanted [21:05] to try to treat ulcerative colitis. It's [21:07] a very you know miserable condition of [21:09] where the immune system attacks the [21:10] lining of the gut in multiple spots. Uh [21:12] and they use enemas of BPC up to like 80 [21:14] milligrams which is much more than than [21:16] people would take. [21:17] >> Most people are injecting microgram. [21:19] Yes. 100 or 200 micrograms per day or [21:21] something. Maybe more but you're talking [21:24] about 80 milligrams. [21:26] >> Yeah. erectile enemas. They did a phase [21:27] one and phase two trial. [21:28] >> They're doing this daily or they do it [21:29] once. [21:30] >> They did it for a few weeks. Um and then [21:32] they reme-measured. They had it was [21:33] placebo controlled. The data is not [21:35] available. The abstracts are only [21:36] available. So that that's what also [21:37] gives us some pause when we're going to [21:39] you know push that forward especially [21:40] when the legal discussions are happening [21:42] here in the next few months uh on BPC. U [21:44] the first the phase one trial showed no [21:46] adverse effects. U they and they didn't [21:48] even have BPC in the systemic system [21:50] too. That's that's a key point to know [21:51] that orally administered or rectally [21:53] administered BPC doesn't seem to go [21:54] systemic. maybe define that a little bit [21:57] more specifically. [21:58] >> If you take aspirin and then you measure [22:00] blood aspirin levels, you'll notice the [22:01] levels go up. When they measured BBC [22:03] levels, BBC157 levels in these uh [22:05] individuals, they didn't find it in the [22:06] blood. So, either it was broken down [22:08] very quickly or it stayed locally to the [22:10] lining of the the gastric tissues. [22:11] >> That raises a question for me. Let's say [22:13] somebody doesn't quote unquote take any [22:15] BPC57 by enema or otherwise. If I were [22:18] to just draw your blood right now, uh [22:20] there's BPC57 in there in the bigger [22:23] protein, [22:23] >> the bigger the bigger BPC protein. I [22:25] don't you wouldn't find [22:25] >> is it circulating or is it or is it [22:27] contain or is it restricted to the gut? [22:28] >> We don't have that data. [22:29] >> Well, that's incredible, right? Because [22:30] we're talking about these effects all [22:32] over the body. We don't even know if it [22:33] leaves the gut. [22:34] >> No, but in well, the injectable is going [22:35] to go systemic. [22:36] >> And most people are going to take if [22:38] they're decide to do this, they're going [22:39] to take an oral or an injectable. [22:41] They're either going to inject local to [22:42] the injury if they can [22:44] >> or an interparitinial. [22:45] They found fragments of the 15. Like [22:47] there's there's a paper in 2024 that [22:49] looked at this and they could figure out [22:50] if somebody had BPC administered for [22:53] doping reasons cuz it's on the water [22:54] list now. So they could figure out if [22:56] someone had taken BPC. [22:57] >> Got it. [22:57] >> But there we don't know like we don't we [22:59] need to know the dynamics. We don't know [23:00] where it goes, how it goes, [23:01] >> and we don't know the results in terms [23:03] of what those 80 mgram enemas of BPC [23:08] did for the colitis. [23:09] >> In the phase one trial, it was just a [23:11] safety uh there was no adverse effects. [23:13] in the phase two trial was very small [23:14] like 40 patients there was at least a [23:16] positive signal on on the ulcer colitis [23:18] >> and this was done in the United States [23:20] or this was in Croatia okay so to be [23:23] quite direct on the one hand you have [23:25] groups um who I think are mostly [23:27] well-intentioned saying hey 80 millig of [23:31] BPC by way of enema did not cause any [23:35] adverse events and that's the phase one [23:38] that you described [23:39] >> if we believe their data is right [23:40] >> on the opposite side many [23:42] [clears throat] people especially in the [23:44] United States and you know in Northern [23:46] Europe where the regulations tend to be [23:48] similarish right as compared to [23:50] elsewhere in the world would say well [23:53] yeah but that study was in Croatia now I [23:56] have many Croatian friends that's not a [23:58] knock on Croatia why would it be that [24:01] the clinical trials in Croatia would [24:03] hold less weight this is this is a dicey [24:06] area but I think it's important because [24:08] you'll hear this oh those are Chinese [24:10] peptides those are Russian studies [24:12] Yeah. And you know, I mean to me, you [24:15] know, the question is, [24:16] >> was it good science? Was it done [24:18] carefully? Would it pass muster for a [24:20] phase one in the United States? [24:22] >> That's a good question. The groups seem [24:24] to be very robust and they do really [24:25] good randomized control, double blind [24:27] placebo control trials. I think we're [24:29] very uh United Statescentric. We view [24:31] ourselves as the premier science and we [24:33] are the premier science. So people kind [24:35] of trust that more and there may be you [24:36] know perverse incentives when it comes [24:38] to different government bodies and like [24:40] you know Soviet era research that might [24:41] be you know pro fabrication when it [24:43] comes to certain compounds that makes [24:45] people hesitant because there's a lot of [24:46] like these Soviet era compounds that are [24:48] not peptides or some of them are [24:49] peptides they're fantastic they sound [24:51] they sound amazing but when they get [24:53] tested maybe they're not as potent as [24:55] the Soviet data would suggest. I always [24:56] thought that the Russian stuff was like [24:58] the really potent stuff that they didn't [24:59] want anyone else to know about that kind [25:01] of way goes the other way, right? [25:03] >> It could go both ways. I mean, but they [25:04] were they were more interested in [25:06] performance. They wanted better [25:07] astronauts, better Olympians, better [25:09] soldiers. We care more about, you know, [25:11] a profit drug model that gets people on [25:13] a subscription for with the monthly [25:14] drug, unfortunately. [25:15] >> Sometimes it heals people, but [25:17] >> So nowadays, is BPC57 legal in the [25:21] United States? Like if if I wanted to go [25:22] online and buy BPC7, I can do it, right? [25:25] legal [clears throat] legally for [25:26] research purposes only. [25:27] >> I thought now under the new regulations [25:29] uh recently passed that you can get it [25:31] from a compounding pharmacy or [25:33] >> technically not just yet. [25:34] >> Okay. [25:35] >> And it depends on on medical boards to [25:36] to break it down. BBC157 never got FDA [25:38] approved, right? So it gets into these [25:40] compounding pharmacy lists. There's a [25:42] category 1, two, and three. Category one [25:44] means the FDA thinks like, hey, this is [25:45] not an approved drug, but we're okay [25:47] with you compounding this and you're [25:48] okay to to push that forward. Category [25:50] 2, it's like do not compound. In late [25:52] 2024, BPC57 and and like 20 other [25:55] peptides got moved to this category 2 [25:57] list. Since about 2017 to 2024, people [26:00] have been prescribing BPC and these [26:01] alternative medicine anti-aging [26:03] practices. It gets removed from that [26:04] list. Of course, you know, [26:05] compoundingies reabel it as PDA, pedeka [26:09] peptide arginate, [26:10] >> but it's the same thing. [26:10] >> It's the same exact thing. [26:11] >> Really? [26:12] >> Yes. One of them will be an acetate, one [26:13] of them will be an arginate, but the PDA [26:15] is is BBC57. Because there are many many [26:18] people selling compounded [26:20] pentadcaeptide. [26:21] >> Pentecate. [26:25] That's the [26:25] >> arginate. Okay. I think the acetate one [26:28] is the one that's on the the phase the [26:30] category 2 list. Now just in April of [26:33] this year it got removed from the [26:35] category 2 list and it's not yet on the [26:37] category 1 list which would allow [26:38] physicians to prescribe it [26:40] >> through compoundingies. Now but they can [26:44] prescribe the PDA version. [26:45] >> People are prescribing PDA. Yes. [26:47] >> Now, now state medical boards view that [26:49] very differently. [26:50] >> Like I got a letter from one of the [26:51] licensed in many states. One of these [26:53] states reached out to me. It's like you [26:54] cannot prescribe not me directly to the [26:56] general public of of people in that [26:58] state you cannot prescribe non-FDA [27:00] approved peptides no matter what. [27:02] >> So there's controversy there. Even if [27:03] the FDA says okay we're okay with you [27:05] prescribing it. Is your medical board in [27:07] that state going to be okay with it? So [27:08] it's state by state by state laws. [27:10] >> What about with tellahalth? So, [27:11] somebody's on the east coast in a state [27:13] that um allows them to write a script [27:16] for let's just call it BBC cuz it's [27:19] effectively what it is or this other [27:20] thing where they kind of wriggle through [27:21] the regulation. Can they send that to [27:23] California or to Wisconsin or or [27:26] someplace else if the patient is there? [27:27] >> The tele health laws go into effect [27:29] where the patient is. [27:31] >> So, if let's say in California it's not [27:33] allowed to have BPC according to the [27:34] state board of pharmacy or whoever uh [27:36] bans that. Even if you're a New York [27:38] doctor that's licensed in California [27:40] that would be against the California [27:41] Medical Board and they would ask you if [27:42] they found out to stand in front of [27:44] them. Now, are boards cracking down on [27:45] this? Not really. There's a couple [27:47] states that are cracking down on people [27:48] and people know to avoid those states, [27:50] but it's going to be very dicey over the [27:52] next few years. [27:53] >> Okay. Couple of questions. anecdata. We [27:56] don't want to place too much on it, but [27:57] the big kind of rumor out there that [28:01] pricked up my years a few years ago was [28:04] when I heard that some athlete before [28:07] the summer Olympics, this was two summer [28:08] Olympics ago, um, from Eastern Europe, [28:11] had a complete Achilles transsection. [28:14] Not just a tear or a pull, but when we [28:16] think about nerves and tendons, we think [28:18] like complete cut the whole way through. [28:20] And the rumor was they took BPC-157 [28:23] locally injected [28:25] >> for a few months and they podiummed in [28:27] the Olympics. Yep. They still got a [28:28] medal. [28:29] >> Familiar with that story. [28:29] >> That was the that was the story that [28:31] kind of got out there that I feel [28:33] >> kind of catalyzed this movement of BPC [28:35] out of these niche communities and in [28:38] started it toward the the public [28:40] awareness that leads to you sitting here [28:41] today among other things. We also you [28:43] have a lot of other knowledge but we're [28:45] restricting to BPC now. So [28:47] >> do we have verification of that story? [28:49] >> No. No, I I think that story was uh [28:52] hearsay. I don't think they wanted to [28:53] reveal what they actually did. I don't [28:55] think they only did BPC57. They'd be [28:57] stupid if they did. They should have, [28:58] you know, all the best and latest [29:00] greatest treatments, whether exome, stem [29:01] cells, other peptides, anything that [29:03] wasn't banned. And by the way, I should [29:05] say BPC57 was not on the banned [29:07] substances list at that time. It was so [29:09] unknown. Just like there are compounds [29:11] right now that athletes [29:13] >> are using and not just in the enhanced [29:15] games in preparation for the Olympics. [29:17] I'm not saying they're all doping, but [29:18] there it's it's a common practice that [29:20] athletes will forage into things that [29:22] can help them that are not yet on the [29:24] band substances list. [29:25] >> And I mean, good luck proving that BBC [29:26] was injected, you know, a week ago [29:28] >> because by the [clears throat] time the [29:29] peptides already gone out of your [29:30] system. So, or at least we think based [29:31] on the phmicamics that we understand [29:33] now. [29:33] >> U that story was run with from the [29:37] research community. They use it as a [29:39] marketing tool to sell more BPC157 [29:41] because what what happened in the in the [29:42] field is the GOP ones come online, you [29:45] know, late 2021 and 2022 with Ozek and [29:47] WGO V, they get the FDA approval for [29:49] weight loss. There's not enough of a [29:51] supply from the traditional [29:52] pharmaceutical versions of the GLP1s. [29:55] So, people start looking elsewhere to [29:56] get their weight loss drugs. I know [29:58] people that would drive down to Mexico [29:59] to pick up pens because a pharmacy in [30:00] the United States would cost, you know, [30:02] $1,500 for an Osmic pen. Pharmacy in [30:04] Mexico, 1 hour drive. [30:06] >> Same drug. [30:06] >> Same exact drug. How much relative cost? [30:08] >> 150 versus 1500. [30:10] >> Wow. [30:10] >> So 10x. [30:11] >> And this is the thing that Trump has [30:12] been, you know, very vocal about like [30:14] that we that we're getting overcharged [30:15] for drugs here. [30:16] >> We we definitely are. And the Trump RX [30:19] has lowered a lot of these prices, by [30:20] the way, for for a lot of these drugs. [30:21] Now, that time there was a shortage of [30:23] semiglutide and then eventually [30:25] zepatide. So the compound pharmacy game [30:27] shifted into making these drugs, [30:29] compounded versions. So they're not the [30:30] FDA approved versions, but when there's [30:32] a shortage of a medication, the [30:34] compounders are allowed to make these [30:36] drugs to meet the shortage. And in fact, [30:37] the FDA was reaching out to these people [30:39] telling them to do it. Like Brigham was [30:41] talking to him last week at the Hands [30:42] Games. He's like, "Yeah, the FDA told us [30:43] to make this stuff and then they're [30:44] getting us in trouble." [30:44] >> This is Brigham Beller who runs ways to [30:47] Well, and [30:48] >> he ran a pharmacy for a long time, [30:49] right? Compounding pharmacy. Yeah. We've [30:50] never actually met in person. One of the [30:51] best ones. [30:52] >> It's not an ad fories. We have no I have [30:54] no business relationship to bring. [30:56] >> So if there's a shortage, compounding [30:58] can jump in the game. [30:59] >> Yes. And they did and they jumped in [31:00] very hard [31:01] >> on the GLPs. [31:02] >> Yes. And they made a lot of money off [31:03] the GLP ones. Like this was, you know, [31:05] billions of dollars being made. [31:06] >> Were they selling them for less than [31:08] standard pharma was selling? [31:09] >> They were less than the ozic pens. [31:11] Unfortunately, what would happen is the [31:13] provider had the discretion on the [31:15] price. So all these providers also were [31:16] making a lot of money. [31:17] >> Who's the quote unquote provider? The [31:18] physician. [31:19] >> The physician or the NP or the PA. [31:21] >> Uh [31:21] >> who takes the difference? [31:22] >> The clinician, which is I don't think is [31:24] legal in most states. [31:25] >> Wait a second. Maybe not even federal. [31:26] >> Wait a second. So, let's say I wanted to [31:28] take a Wiggoi. Yes. [31:29] >> And there's a shortage. I can't get it [31:31] from who's the the big manufacturer. [31:34] Nova Norris doesn't have enough. [31:35] >> My doctor says, "Listen, you need this." [31:37] Yes. [31:37] >> And I say, "How much is it?" And they [31:39] say, "Well, 1,500 um $1,500, but it [31:43] turns out the compounding pharmacy [31:45] >> through a different doctor, a more [31:47] benevolent doctor. [31:48] >> There you go. [31:49] >> Could have prescribed it to me for I [31:51] could get for maybe $300. In the case [31:53] where I'm paying 1,500, it's going to my [31:55] physician unbeknownst to me. I don't [31:57] it's I'm cloaked from the process. [31:58] >> If you're getting the the Nova Nordisk [32:00] pen, the physician is not involved. [32:02] >> No, I'm talking about if I'm if I'm [32:03] drifted towards a a compounded version. [32:05] So the the most of the times when it [32:07] comes to compoundies, which I don't [32:08] think is is a is a good practice, the [32:10] clinician gets a price from the [32:12] pharmacy. So the pharmacy will tell you, [32:13] hey, a vial of semiglutide costs 150 [32:16] bucks. [32:17] >> This clinician can now sell that vial to [32:19] the patient sell. It's really they're [32:21] charging an administrative fee, right? [32:22] Right? It's not a sale cuz technically [32:23] you can't sell medications like that. [32:25] They will sell it to you for $200 or [32:29] $800. Okay. If I want to ask my [32:32] physician, [32:34] >> how much are you getting the drug for [32:36] from because I know which pharmacy it's [32:38] going to come from. It's going to come [32:39] in a vile says like Upstate or Tailor [32:41] Made or what's Brigham's pharmacy? [32:42] >> Revive. [32:43] >> Revive. It's coming from Revive. What [32:44] are you paying for this from Revive? [32:46] >> Yep. [32:47] >> And then what are you going to charge [32:48] me? And I can assume the difference is [32:49] going to my clinician. [32:50] >> It's going to the clinician all. [32:51] >> All right. Sorry clinicians, the [32:52] [laughter] game is up. Patients are now [32:55] going to ask and you have every right to [32:56] ask as far as I'm concerned. [32:57] >> Yeah, cuz what's going to happen with [32:59] the BBC and all these other peptides [33:00] moving is there's going to be teleahalth [33:02] platforms on every on every corner now [33:04] that are going to be like, "Hey, BBC [33:06] 199, BBC 299," and they're going to like [33:08] check out and there's going to be a [33:09] doctor somewhere in a room that's going [33:10] to stamp the prescription, but it's just [33:11] a, you know, e-commerce. It supplements [33:13] with a with a stamp of a doctor, which [33:15] is not good medical care at all. [33:17] >> Okay. To balance this a bit, the route [33:20] that many people have gone for about a [33:22] decade now, but primarily in the last [33:24] three to five years, was to go to these [33:26] for research purposes only, what we [33:28] would call gray market. Let's just name [33:30] names because they're out of business [33:31] now anyway. They've shuttered [33:32] themselves. Peptide sciences till a few [33:35] years ago, you could go on there, you [33:37] could buy pretty much any peptide. It [33:38] would say for research purposes only, [33:41] not for animal or human use. [33:42] >> Yes. And you sign that many times. And [33:44] when you paid them, you would have to [33:47] Venmo them. [33:48] >> Yeah. [33:48] >> Or you could do it through zel. Yes. [33:50] >> But they would ask that you not send it [33:52] to a Peptide Sciences account. It was [33:54] like some random name and the names kept [33:56] changing. So everyone knew they were in [33:58] on something like this. By the way, I I [34:00] I want to be very clear. I ended up [34:02] getting these things, right? I was too [34:05] frightened to take them later. I have [34:08] taken BPC. I've tried it. I don't take [34:10] it currently, but I've I've tried it [34:12] through a compounding pharmacy. So I [34:13] just want to be very clear what that [34:14] experience was about. [34:15] >> So eventually they actually got payment [34:16] processors like the this this market [34:18] evolved with the desire. Okay, there's [34:20] maybe I'd [snorts] say 5 to10 billion [34:23] dollars on gray market peptides being [34:24] spent in the United States in 2025 and [34:26] that's going to grow this year. [34:27] >> So here's my question. Standard pharma [34:30] we know goes through of all the things [34:31] we're talking about the most stringent [34:32] process. You may hate pharma folks or [34:34] whatever. That's you're right. But the [34:37] the stuff that you get that's [34:39] non-generic from Novanoris, from Eli [34:42] Liy, you can be certain based on the [34:44] product packaging that it's as clean as [34:46] it gets, as pure as it gets. [34:48] >> That's right. [34:48] >> Compoundingies are a mix. It depends on [34:50] the compounding pharmacy. [34:52] >> Do we know that gray market peptides had [34:54] problems? Because there are people out [34:56] there right now who are certainly not [34:57] physicians. people like Robert Breedlove [34:59] who's best known for like his work in [35:01] crypto who's also now like very open [35:03] about the fact that he's taken all these [35:04] peptides and anabolics and things and I [35:06] heard him online the other day saying [35:08] literally that he's tested the gray [35:11] market for research purposes only [35:12] peptides and compared them to the [35:15] compounding pharmacy versions and [35:16] they're identical. Now he's not a [35:18] physician and I don't think he's lying [35:20] but many people are taking that sort of [35:22] evidence and saying oh I'll just get it [35:24] from gray market sources. As a [35:26] physician, [35:27] what is your stance on this? [35:29] >> So, the API for all these active [35:31] pharmaceutical ingredients comes from [35:34] China. There are no such thing as [35:35] Americanmade peptides. It gets finished [35:37] here. So, the API, [35:38] >> they're all from China. [35:39] >> Everything's from China. the raw [35:40] materials [35:41] >> the raw materials like the semiglutide [35:42] you're getting from a compounding [35:43] pharmacy or a research pep peptide [35:46] website ratide included comes from China [35:50] and then gets either the the raw [35:51] material gets you know packaged here [35:54] >> raw materials or or synthesized compound [35:56] because there's a big difference between [35:57] getting like the raw materials for [35:59] something and getting the thing [36:01] >> the synthesized semiglutide [36:03] >> gets made in China it'd be very [36:04] expensive to make it here there are [36:06] people starting to look at that cuz [36:07] that's that's the next you know thing in [36:08] the in the arms race to make American [36:10] peptides, right? [36:11] >> So, they're all Chinese peptides. [36:12] >> Everything's Chinese peptides. [36:13] >> There's no uh Guatemalan peptides. [36:15] There's no [36:16] >> China is the best at it at doing it. [36:18] Now, the compoundingies [36:21] vary in grading. Some of them are really [36:22] good. They do all the testing, [36:24] sterility. They have very good quality [36:25] control. So, you get a good product, but [36:27] they usually have to compound it with [36:28] something else to get by the regulations [36:30] like they'll add in a B12 or a B6 to say [36:32] like the patient had nausea from the [36:34] traditional semiglutide. we can compound [36:36] them with B12 or B6 to get around the [36:39] nausea and that's that that's meets the [36:41] patient rule because there's two ways to [36:42] get compounded medications. Either a [36:44] shortage or there's a unique need that [36:46] the patient has. [36:47] >> Do we know that compounding with [36:48] something else actually deals with the [36:50] nausea or is that just it slight? It [36:52] might help some people. [36:53] >> Got it. [36:54] >> Anecdotally, people will say that they [36:55] respond better to the pens like the [36:57] actual pharma pens than to the compared [36:59] to the compounded stuff. The research [37:01] stuff is all over the place. Like some [37:02] of it could be better than compounded [37:04] stuff. It could be the wrong substance. [37:06] Like there's a there's a guy went viral [37:07] on Twitter a few weeks ago. He got rid [37:09] of two tide started getting darker. He's [37:11] like, I don't think I'm injecting reat. [37:13] Got it. [37:13] >> Yes. He was melan. He was injecting [37:15] melan too. [37:16] >> And folks, I realize that we're we're [37:18] going places that not even I predicted [37:20] we would go, but this is super [37:22] informative. So all of the raw materials [37:23] are coming from the same source. Yes. [37:25] Then they're getting filtered into these [37:26] different let's just call them [37:28] >> stringency bins. Standard pharma, quote [37:32] unquote big pharma being the most [37:33] stringent. [37:34] >> Yeah, some of the raw materials are [37:35] overseas, like I think Lily's opening [37:36] some China factories. Some of it's here. [37:38] >> Okay. Some are going into compoundingies [37:41] and compoundingies, I think it's fair to [37:43] say, have varying levels of stringency. [37:46] Some are going to be excellent, some are [37:47] good, some are going to be lousy. [37:48] >> That's right. [37:48] >> Fair. Okay. the quoteunquote gray market [37:51] peptides, the ones where it's [37:53] quoteunquote for research purposes only, [37:55] but I made the joke on X a few weeks [37:57] ago, like how many of you are running [37:59] experiments in your home, not on [38:00] animals. Were you doing cell culture at [38:02] home? Like, come on. [laughter] [38:04] I know what's involved in doing cell [38:05] culture. You're not. No one's doing this [38:07] at home. [38:08] >> So, those presumably also come in [38:12] anywhere from excellent to dreadful. [38:14] >> Yes. [38:14] >> Um, but we don't know which are which. [38:16] Nope. [38:16] >> We don't know that. [38:18] >> And batch to batch. That's the big [38:19] problem. [38:19] >> Gotcha. Okay. So, it is risky to get re [38:22] for research purposes. I mean, like [38:23] that's the majority of way people are [38:24] consuming peptides. Unfortunately, we [38:26] should just because of the the the move [38:28] in 2024 to get these from the category [38:30] one to the category 2 list and make them [38:32] banned quote unquote. That opened up [38:35] this gray market zone. Like the gray [38:36] market existed for the last 15, 20 [38:38] years. Bodybuilders would, you know, [38:40] have anecdotes about BPC157. They'd [38:42] inject it post, you know, post squats [38:43] for different injuries. Nobody really [38:45] cared about it. It was with the GLP-1s [38:47] and then the banning of the peptides [38:49] plus this, you know, anti- medicine kick [38:52] that's been happening over the last five [38:53] years [38:53] >> since the pandemic. [38:54] >> Yes. Since the pandemic that people are [38:55] like, you know what, I want to inject [38:56] this because it gives them a sense of [38:58] autonomy or they feel like their bro [39:00] recommended it. Like I said, the best [39:02] job in 2025 was to be a peptide [39:04] affiliate. Like people made my yearly [39:06] salary in in a month selling peptides [39:08] illegally on TikTok. [39:09] >> And I will say because for people that [39:11] think it's just bro science, it's also [39:13] gal science. I will tell you, I don't [39:15] even know this a term. Um, someone needs [39:17] to come up with a better term. Um, my [39:19] understanding and not from Reddit is [39:22] that more than half of the peptide [39:24] market is female. [39:26] >> Oh, that's right. [39:27] >> You know, there's this perception that [39:28] it's like, you know, only guys who like [39:30] to lift weights and want to be jacked [39:31] and, you know, jacked and tan or [39:33] whatever, they say, you know, no. No. [39:34] Especially when we start getting into [39:36] things like GHKU copper and we start [39:38] talking about things for collagen and [39:40] skin rejuvenation. There's a big peptide [39:42] market in towards women. I actually [39:44] think in the long run it's going to [39:45] exceed at least financially peptide [39:47] market in men. [39:48] >> I think it already has because like [39:50] soccer moms have become like affiliates [39:52] like like you know Amway and Herbal Life [39:53] was the big thing 20 years ago. Now [39:55] soccer moms just do peptide affiliation. [39:56] >> Where are they getting their peptides? [39:57] >> Research research grade websites. The [39:59] >> gray market. Okay. We already know that [40:01] they're not uh recommended, but what [40:03] what about black market? What what what [40:05] would be considered black market? [40:06] >> Black market is like if you bought it [40:07] directly from China like like it's very [40:09] cheap. Like a vial of BPC costs five [40:11] bucks to make. Like now someone will [40:13] sell it to you for $1.99 plus depending [40:14] on where. But black [clears throat] [40:15] market is either like you know your [40:17] friend in China on WhatsApp sent you a [40:19] vial of BPC. Do not do this or someone [40:21] synthesize claims they synthesize it in [40:23] their bathtub. Like just like the [40:24] underground gear like all the steroids [40:27] that were in the '9s and the 2000s. It's [40:29] like, who knows what that is. [40:30] >> What's so interesting to me is with [40:33] steroids, it went from bodybuilding [40:35] community to eventually hormone [40:38] replacement. It was like TRT or what I [40:39] call TRT plus cuz a lot of guys are [40:41] taking a lot more than that. Some are [40:42] taking less, some are most are taking [40:44] more, some are taking what they're [40:45] prescribed. And then HRT be has become [40:48] very popular in women. So now HRT is [40:50] kind of like a thing that it's not like, [40:52] oh my goodness, like so and so is taking [40:54] estrogen replacement or testo. It's not [40:55] not a big deal. Peptides is different [40:57] because it came, you know, the big [41:00] explosion in this came through the GLPs. [41:02] And I would argue, I'd love your opinion [41:03] on this, why so many people are now [41:05] peptide curious is because people [41:08] because of the GLPs are now also very [41:10] comfortable [41:12] >> injecting themselves. Like like 5 years [41:14] ago, if you're like, you're going to [41:15] inject yourself, people like, oh my god. [41:16] Then they realize it's like this little [41:17] tiny pin. It hurts less than a, you [41:19] know, Texan mosquikito bite. People are [41:20] doing it on their skin and like, you [41:22] know, and somebody's, you know, your [41:23] girlfriend or wife is doing it as if [41:24] it's nothing. And, you know, like heroin [41:26] addicts or diabetics, [41:27] >> right? You're not going introvenous. So, [41:29] that changed everything that [41:31] dstigmatized it. Now, [41:32] >> to be fair, I I want to touch on [41:35] >> the the question about adverse events. [41:37] Again, [41:37] >> y [41:37] >> we're going to spend a couple minutes [41:38] talking about some incredible things [41:40] that we've seen and heard about BPC57 in [41:42] terms of its positive effects. [41:44] >> Y [41:44] >> the concern I've always had was the [41:46] angioenesis, the growth of vasculature. [41:49] If somebody happens to have a little [41:50] tumor or what will eventually become a [41:52] tumor sitting on their liver or in their [41:54] gut or in their pancreas, in theory, it [41:56] could vascularize that tumor and cause [42:00] it to grow more quickly. Is there any [42:02] evidence that that's actually happened? [42:03] I want to be very clear. I'm not loading [42:05] this question because it sounds like I'm [42:06] kind of like leading the witness when I [42:07] say that. I want to know. Y [42:09] >> I'm not currently taking BPC57. I'm [42:11] fortunately I don't have an injury at [42:13] the moment. So that would be the only [42:14] condition which I'd take it unless you [42:15] told me there are other reasons. But I [42:17] don't want to give myself that risk [42:19] >> that risk. And I think most people don't [42:20] want to give themselves that risk. So [42:21] what is the the realistic risk based on [42:24] observations in humans or animals? Have [42:26] we ever seen tumors grow more quickly? [42:28] >> No. Like for example, most compounds if [42:30] they're, you know, carcinogenic, we will [42:32] see that signature in the animals like [42:34] you know with cardarine GW uh was a drug [42:36] that was very was very promising because [42:38] it had you know diabetic implications [42:39] for metabolism and now it's a [42:41] bodybuilder drug that they use for more [42:42] cardio. What is this? [42:44] >> Cardarine GW. Mhm. [clears throat] Uh [42:45] you might have seen on on the Reddits [42:47] and those forums, but people use it for [42:49] I stay out of Reddit. [42:50] >> Yeah. Good. Uh increases your cardio um [42:52] capacity. Got so banned on on the water [42:54] list of course, but it was it had [42:56] promise for treating diabetics because [42:57] it changed metabolism in the liver. It [42:59] had a signal of cancer in animal data. [43:02] So that whole thing was scrapped. [43:03] >> There's no signal from the animal [43:05] literature on BPC57 for for you know [43:08] cancers. Now that all that literature [43:10] comes from one group. So we have to be [43:12] very careful. that one creation group [43:14] that tells you that that's it's the [43:15] safest thing in the world. [43:16] >> All the animal data come from one group. [43:17] >> Almost all of it. [43:18] >> Interesting. [43:18] >> Almost all of it. Very few. Like there's [43:20] a couple of Chinese studies on on BBC57. [43:22] Now there's starting to become more [43:24] interest here. Like I think it's a phase [43:25] two trial on hamstrings happening here [43:27] in the United States. [43:28] >> Really? Yeah. Humans. Yes. Phase two. [43:30] >> Yes. Uh we talked to a group, an [43:31] orthopedic group somewhere on the East [43:32] Coast. They they wanted to do a BBC [43:34] trial. So we consulted with them to kind [43:35] of Great. [43:36] >> Yeah. So it's it's going to happen. [43:37] Especially if it moves to this category [43:39] one list and people can be prescribed [43:40] it. At least we can get like a phase 4 [43:42] trial where it's being prescribed and we [43:44] can see what's happening to the people [43:45] as they're getting it [43:46] >> and we can, you know, aggregate all this [43:47] anecdata into one place ideally and [43:50] report on it. So that's something we're [43:51] working on in the in the background. [43:52] >> Is that something you personally working [43:54] on on aggregating all this all this data [43:56] together into a anyone nest study to put [43:59] it all all together because all the ane [44:01] data exists but like put it together [44:03] somewhere at least we can see what the [44:04] signals are. For example, on Reddit, [44:05] you'll find signals of hematomas getting [44:08] worse, which makes sense with the with [44:09] the VEGF pathway. [44:10] >> I've heard this. So, a friend and [44:13] physician who is, I would say, peptide [44:16] curious/positive [44:18] told me that when he takes BPC-157 for, [44:21] you know, a shoulder or knee or [44:22] whatever, that angiomas on his face, um, [44:25] the sort of spiderweb angiomas, not the [44:27] formal term, forgive me, derms, but, um, [44:29] get worse. That's his his personal [44:31] observation. I think a lot of people [44:33] don't want that. It makes sense though [44:34] if it's promoting angioenesis [44:35] >> based on the the mechanism it does make [44:37] sense. Now BBC157 is not a uniform [44:39] androgenis um upregulator. In some [44:42] models it decreases vef in a melanoma [44:45] model a cell line. [44:46] >> So it might be potentially anti-cancer [44:48] but we need to test it. [44:49] >> We don't know and which is what's really [44:50] unfortunate about this compound. It's [44:52] very promising. It has all this cool [44:53] literature in animals and we just don't [44:56] know when it comes to the one. [44:58] >> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And and we'd love [45:00] to know because like if it does work [45:02] like I could see a million use cases in [45:03] the ICU that we could use, you know, [45:05] BBC157 to really help people out [45:06] especially during the critical illness [45:08] because like in ICU people get gastric [45:10] ulcers. Like if if we knew that it would [45:12] work, I would love to give them an [45:13] infusion of BBC157 and that's the future [45:15] I could see happening. But we need data. [45:17] As many of you know, I've been taking [45:19] AG1 for nearly 15 years now. I [45:22] discovered it way back in 2012, long [45:24] before I had a podcast, and I've been [45:26] taking it every day since. AG1 is, to my [45:29] knowledge, the highest quality and most [45:30] comprehensive of the foundational [45:32] nutritional supplements on the market. [45:34] It combines vitamins, minerals, [45:36] prebiotics, probiotics, and adaptogens [45:39] into a single scoop that's easy to [45:41] drink, and tastes great. It's designed [45:43] to support things like gut health, [45:44] immune health, and overall energy. And [45:46] it does so by helping to fill any gaps [45:48] that you might have in your daily [45:50] nutrition. And of course, we should all [45:52] eat highquality whole foods, but most of [45:54] us are probably not getting enough [45:55] prebiotics, vitamins, and minerals, and [45:58] AG1 ensures that those gaps are filled. [46:00] I get asked all the time by people if [46:02] they were to take just one supplement, [46:04] what would my recommendation for that [46:05] supplement be? And my answer is always [46:07] AG1 because it's just been so critical [46:10] for supporting all aspects of my [46:11] physical health, mental health, and [46:13] performance by covering those [46:14] nutritional, what we call foundational [46:16] bases. And I know from my own experience [46:18] and from everyone I've heard that I [46:20] recommended it to that they simply feel [46:22] much better in a number of different [46:24] ways when they take it regularly. If [46:26] you'd like to try AG1, you can go to [46:28] drink a1.com/huberman [46:30] to get a special offer. For a limited [46:32] time, AG1 is giving away a week supply [46:34] of AGZ, which is their sleep supplement, [46:36] and a free bottle of vitamin D3 K2 with [46:38] your subscription. AGZ is something that [46:40] I help design. It tastes great, and it's [46:43] the only sleep supplement I take. It has [46:45] a collection of different things in it [46:46] that has dramatically improved my sleep. [46:49] Both my slowwave deep sleep and my rapid [46:51] eye movement sleep and I absolutely love [46:53] it. Again, that's drinkagg.com/huberman [46:56] to get a week supply of AGZ and a bottle [46:59] of D3K2 with your subscription. When is [47:02] there going to be a formal randomized [47:04] control trial on BPC and who holds the [47:06] patent? [47:07] >> There's multiple patents on BPC 157 [47:09] depending on which salt they're in. The [47:11] patent has been passed around a couple [47:13] of times to through different places. [47:14] Unfortunately, the company that had the [47:16] patent under the pled got acquired by [47:19] TAVA. TA is this generic pharmaceutical [47:22] company and they don't they make, you [47:23] know, Aderall. So, they they have [47:24] they're making tons of money making [47:25] Aderal. They don't really care about [47:26] PPC157. So, they have one of the [47:28] patents. The other patent expires in [47:30] like 10 years. I think Cric still has [47:31] it. Dr. Crick is is the guy behind [47:33] BBC157. He's [47:34] >> he's in Croatia. [47:35] >> He's in Croatia. Yeah. [47:36] >> Would Tava um sell the patent? [47:38] >> I'm sure they would if someone made an [47:39] offer. The the problem is I don't I [47:41] don't see the purpose of even having the [47:42] patent because you can add on one chain [47:44] to the amino acid. This is the problem [47:45] with with peptides. This is what Luli [47:47] Eli Liy is coming into when it comes to [47:50] making rea is that patent laws for [47:52] peptides kind of suck because you can [47:53] add on one amino acid. You can modify [47:55] one thing on it and suddenly it's a [47:56] different compound. [47:57] >> This is true for other pharmaceuticals. [47:59] Like I'm familiar with some of the [48:00] ketamine and ibeane trials and there's a [48:03] company that took ibagane and basically [48:05] added a magnesium component to it and [48:07] you can make that a completely new drug. [48:09] I'm not saying that doesn't work. I [48:10] think they have a good rationale for [48:11] doing that. But so this game of sort of [48:14] protecting patents rough and plus [48:16] millions of people have already used [48:17] BPC157 through research use only [48:20] websites. So I think millions is fair. [48:23] But now how do you reel that back? Like [48:25] it's already the cat's out of the bag. [48:27] So like there's no financial incentive [48:28] to run the giant study [48:30] >> unless like we we crowdfund it as as you [48:32] know peptide curious people [48:34] >> within the category of um interesting uh [48:37] anecdotal data. Y [48:39] >> and in your role as a physician, I [48:40] realize you're not suggesting these [48:42] things, but you you have a different [48:43] picture of this stuff at the level of [48:45] mechanism and you're a clinician that [48:46] works with, you know, truly FDA approved [48:49] drugs and you're you're I want you to [48:51] share with folks. I said it in the [48:53] introduction, but internal medicine [48:54] means that you spend your days what [48:56] >> I'm on the on the wards of the hospital [48:58] admitting patients from the ER to the [48:59] floor to the ICU, managing very complex [49:01] disease ranging from, you know, a simple [49:03] pneumonia to a coronary artery bypass [49:06] patient. So, yeah, [49:07] >> that whole spectrum. [49:07] >> Okay. So that lens applied to this as [49:10] much as one can would you say that like [49:13] of the the reports that you've heard [49:15] directly from people you trust and from [49:17] people that who are not incentivized to [49:19] say these things like oh you know it [49:21] made me happier you know their skin [49:23] looked better all the things that one [49:25] can find in it with an affiliate code [49:26] attached to it of those what do you [49:29] think are the most interesting [49:32] potentially valid claims [49:36] and I asked that because If we were [49:38] going to fund a clinical trial, we need [49:40] to pick an end point or a couple of end [49:42] points. Is it going to be recovery from [49:43] injury? If so, what kinds of injuries? [49:45] Is it going to be the gastric stuff? Is [49:47] it mood interaction with dopamine [49:48] receptors? I mean, I've heard so many [49:50] different things. If we had a chunk of [49:51] money and we're going to we're going to [49:52] design a study and have someone else do [49:54] it so it's truly independent. Like what [49:56] are the top three to five outcomes that [49:58] you've heard that you have a good [50:00] feeling there's quote unquote something [50:01] there? [50:02] >> Yep. [50:02] >> And then we narrow it down to maybe one [50:04] or two for sake of the study. What What [50:05] are those five? I would say to complete [50:08] the phase one, phase two on the ulcer of [50:09] colitis, do that phase three trial on [50:11] proven that it has benefits for [50:12] ulcerative colitis. And I don't think we [50:14] need to use enema. We could probably [50:15] have an encapsulated version that [50:16] releases deeper into the intestines. [50:18] >> So fix the gut, fix the ulcered gut. [50:21] >> Yes. In conjunction with that, you could [50:22] do a trial on like, you know, gird. [50:24] That's a simple condition. A lot of [50:25] people have it randomized to BPC157 oral [50:29] capsules versus pentopresol. [50:31] >> Okay. And you're basing this on the fact [50:32] that you've seen and heard that people [50:33] who have gird get better, feel better [50:36] when they take it. Okay. And it could be [50:37] placebo. [50:38] >> Yes. I mean, anecdotally, when when I [50:40] travel, I I have a bottle of BPC orally. [50:42] >> Why is that? [50:43] >> I don't get, you know, travelers [50:45] diarrhea or or, you know, [50:47] >> when [snorts] I, you know, eat exotic [50:48] foods on in random places. My friends [50:49] all get sick and I I happen not to. [50:51] Anecdote, right? But that's interesting. [50:53] There seems to be some kind of gut [50:54] protective effect. And that's what they [50:55] noticed in the the mice literature. they [50:57] would have an offending agent into the [50:59] gut and they'd notice that there would [51:00] be protection deeper down in the in the [51:02] gastric tract from that offending agent [51:04] because if you think about it the gut is [51:05] the most vulnerable part of the body [51:06] like it's open to the outside world it's [51:08] a tube that runs through you can eat [51:10] something and it could completely [51:11] destroy you so you have to have some [51:12] kind of mechanisms the prostaglandins uh [51:14] the you know all these different [51:16] hormones that are made potentially BPC17 [51:18] is part of this robust armory that the [51:20] gut has to protect itself from further [51:21] injuries. Mhm. What are some things [51:24] outside the gut or indirect from the gut [51:26] that are also compelling? [51:28] >> So, I would love to see some [51:29] neuroscychiatric um BBC studies when it [51:32] comes to um addictions. There's enough [51:34] anecdot about people talking about [51:36] addictions and and like hey I don't need [51:37] to crave insert drug here not [51:39] recommending that anyone tries that out [51:40] but for alcohol or whatever it may be. [51:42] Do you think that is likely due to the [51:45] we're speculating but likely due to a um [51:49] interference with the reinforcing [51:50] properties just like earlier you said [51:52] people are getting less drunk so people [51:53] are getting less high becomes less [51:55] reinforcing or is it somehow touching [51:57] the craving mechanisms themselves? [51:59] >> It's probably touching the craving [52:00] mechanism through the gutb brain access [52:01] because I don't think it's going [52:02] systemic either. I think it's it's [52:04] locally in the gut shutting down the [52:06] neurons from from from if you think [52:07] about it if BBC is what they claim it is [52:09] right and that's a big if that if you [52:11] have a noxious agent going into your gut [52:14] your body has to have a mechanism to [52:16] lock down you know protect your your [52:17] vital organs right so is BPC part of [52:19] this giant transduction pathway to [52:21] protect your vital organs your brain [52:22] your heart your kidneys from further [52:24] damage we had uh Dr. Diego Borquez, I [52:26] can never pronounce his last name, [52:27] forgive me, Diego, who's out at Duke, [52:29] who's really the world expert on these [52:30] neuropod cells in the gut that signal [52:32] through the noto's gangling up the Vegas [52:34] noto's ganglion to either promote or [52:36] suppress release of dopamine to make you [52:38] either approach or avoid certain foods. [52:40] Very, very interesting. I would be more [52:43] than happy to [52:44] >> encourage his lab, even if get funds for [52:47] his lab, to do something on this. What [52:49] are some other categories of interesting [52:51] effects that deserve [52:53] >> careful study? [52:54] >> Yep. So we need to see what BBC does on [52:56] the muscular skeletal system. Like [52:57] that's what the hype is. That's where [52:58] everybody's is is going. So as I look [53:00] through like what model I would look [53:02] for, you want something that's not very [53:05] vascularized but could be improved if [53:07] the blood flow was good like a tendon [53:10] injury. So perhaps you know a bicep [53:12] tricep tendon type of uh postsurgical [53:15] outcome. So like you get your bicep [53:16] tendon um torn, you get a repair, you [53:18] get BBC either inoperatively or [53:20] postoperatively and you see if if that [53:23] person heals faster because idea is not [53:25] to use BBC. It's not going to magically [53:26] reattach an ACL that's torn, right? But [53:29] can it further accelerate the healing [53:31] from an ACL surgery so you come back in [53:33] 6 months rather than 12 months? That's [53:34] the big question [53:36] >> and that's what like a lot of athletes [53:37] are are using BBC157 for that use. [53:39] >> Has ever anyone ever done the one limb [53:42] versus opposite limb control experiment? [53:43] I mean I know that people take it orally [53:45] or inject it systemically like under the [53:47] skin or into the muscle goes [53:48] systemically in the bloodstream if you [53:49] apply it that way. Um if you can get to [53:52] the injury site sometimes people will [53:53] inject locally [53:55] >> but it seems that the challenge is that [53:58] let's say you have you know uh you know [53:59] tendonitis in one elbow and tendonitis [54:01] in the other elbow you could inject into [54:03] your left elbow not and not your right [54:05] but there's going to be systemic [54:06] transfer so it's hard to do that [54:08] internal control experiment. Yeah, I [54:09] know. I've had I've used BBC for one [54:11] injury and I've had results on a [54:13] different injury. [54:14] >> Positive results. [54:14] >> I had positive results. I'm like, "Oh, [54:16] interesting that like that that my [54:17] shoulder feels better even though I was [54:18] doing it from my elbow or whatever it [54:19] may be." This would be a good time for [54:20] us to, you know, bracket what we're [54:23] about to say by saying this is purely [54:24] anecdotal, but filtered through I [54:27] consider myself a skeptic on many, many [54:29] things, especially things I would put [54:30] into my body. I'll tell a a story. [54:32] What's your favorite personal BPC story [54:35] involving you and your body? Yeah, [54:38] >> I tore my tricep a few months ago. Tore. [54:40] Yeah, tore triceps lifting with people I [54:42] should have been lifting with. They're [54:43] much stronger than I was. Purple from [54:44] here to here. [54:46] >> Like the pictures I posted on on X. It's [54:48] it's brutal. I'm like, I'm going to have [54:49] to have surgery. This sucks. I I don't [54:51] have time to have surgery cuz you're [54:53] you're in a brace for like 3 months. And [54:54] I put BBC in locally. Don't try this at [54:57] home. Not medical advice, but locally in [54:59] the tissue spot with a couple of other [55:00] peptides. And within 3 weeks, my my PT [55:03] is like, "What the hell are you doing? [55:04] Like, this is healing so fast." Would I [55:06] have healed that fast anyways? I don't [55:08] know. But that's typically a grade two [55:10] tricep tear with with purple arm from [55:12] from top to bottom. It wasn't grade [55:13] three. Uh cuz I could still extend my my [55:15] elbow. That's usually a 3-month [55:17] recovery. And to be back in 3 to 4 weeks [55:19] was was fantastic for me, which is why [55:21] I'm so excited. [55:22] >> What dosage were you injecting? [55:23] >> Uh a larger dose than people would uh [55:26] >> not micrograms. No, [55:27] >> you were up in the grams. [55:28] >> Yeah. Yeah. A lot higher. I I think um [55:31] personally and in some of our our our [55:32] people, we've used bigger dosages. I [55:34] think that's the problem. the low [55:35] dosages even though that translates well [55:38] from the mice data for humans I think [55:40] the dose is way higher [55:41] >> but people just go based on the dosage [55:43] that would fit in the pile through a you [55:45] know peptide sciences website rather [55:46] than what actually we don't know what [55:47] what the human dose is for BBC157 so [55:50] there's a lot of work to do just to [55:52] figure that out like when we spoke to [55:53] the to the orthopedic group like yeah [55:54] we're going to start with you know 250 [55:55] micrograms I'm like [snorts] I don't [55:57] know if you're going to see an effect at [55:58] that low of a dose you might need to to [56:00] raise it up like that that's what people [56:01] do online [56:02] >> I'm like yeah but that's just because [56:03] someone's peptide website says to do [56:05] that. There's no data there, but you [56:07] know, tricep was back to normal. [56:09] >> Amazing. [56:09] >> That was a an interesting BPC case. I' [56:12] I've seen other injuries where BBC [56:13] didn't really help [clears throat] [56:14] >> much. I can't match your story. That's [56:16] that's a a bigger result. I can just say [56:19] that I had a bad trap neck pull where I [56:21] couldn't turn my head and I was like, [56:23] "Oh, one of those." and you know had [56:24] some BPC so it was only I think only 200 [56:27] micrograms and just pinned it right into [56:29] the that's street talk for injected um [56:32] right into the kind of like upper [56:35] trapish area 2 days later completely [56:37] gone of course [56:39] >> I don't know what would have happened [56:40] had I just waited [56:41] >> but it seemed um eerily fast and then I [56:44] stopped taking it y [56:45] >> so this is a guy that you know and and [56:47] by the way that was um not gray market [56:49] it was obtained through a doctor's [56:50] prescription from a compounding pharmacy [56:52] labeled BPC1 57 not PDA PDA okay those [56:56] are anecdotes I've also read just to be [56:58] fair we should balance this out [57:00] certainly on X you know people can say [57:01] anything they want people saying oh you [57:02] know I didn't feel well I stopped taking [57:04] it okay could be due to what it was [57:07] dissolved in could be due to their own [57:10] unique you know response could be due to [57:12] bad sourcing you know contamination so [57:15] we don't know but not everyone has a [57:16] great result and some people have no [57:18] result right but many many people report [57:20] what can only be described as pretty [57:22] astonishing ing positive results [57:25] >> that cannot be directly ascribed to the [57:27] BPC because of the placebo effect etc. [57:29] And I'm not saying that to protect [57:30] myself. I'm saying that so that people [57:31] can couch this in that like how we got [57:34] here y [57:35] >> is because of stories like this. [57:36] >> Well, there's two possibilities. Either [57:37] BBC is as amazing as we think it is and [57:39] it's unfortunate that millions of people [57:41] don't have access to it [57:43] >> or BBC is actually either ineffective or [57:46] harmful to people and millions of people [57:47] are injecting it right now by buying it [57:49] through online sources. Both cases are [57:51] very bad endpoints. one's worse than the [57:53] other. You can argue which one, but [57:55] that's why we need this data. We need [57:56] people to push this forward to figure [57:57] this out because we don't want these end [57:59] points because if if in 20 years we find [58:00] out BPC is as good as, you know, Secrets [58:03] Lab says it is, then man, people are [58:05] pissed off all the, you know, joint [58:07] replacements and injuries didn't heal [58:09] and all the athletes that maybe could [58:10] have had a longer career, that would be [58:12] very unfortunate. But if it's the [58:13] opposite and like, you know, every [58:14] 18-year-old kid in the in the gym will [58:15] come up to me and like, I'm going to [58:16] inject inject BPC. Like, where do you [58:17] get it from? [58:18] >> I'm like, dude, you're 18. you have all [58:20] the peptides you need in you like the [58:22] parabiosis studies that these are young [58:24] animals like you actually take your [58:25] blood and [58:27] >> we had Tony Weiss Corey on the podcast [58:28] that was you know young blood is rich [58:30] with these things and no we're not [58:31] talking about harvesting blood from [58:33] babies check out the Tony Weiss Corey [58:35] episode we'll provide a link [58:37] >> I mean what you just said about young [58:39] guys coming up to you in the gym and [58:40] saying should I be taking or I'm already [58:42] taking BBC is you know we could have a [58:44] whole other conversation maybe another [58:45] time we will talk about testosterone and [58:47] synthetics and things like that I see a [58:48] lot of young guys taking everyone. [58:50] >> I don't know if it's everyone. I don't [58:51] know if it's everyone. I see a lot of [58:54] many many people are taking testosterone [58:56] exogenously who truly don't need it and [59:00] potentially permanently shutting down [59:01] their fertility or causing other issues. [59:03] >> With the looks maxing trend, too, [59:04] >> with the looks maxing trend, you know, [59:06] they're walking around with hammers, [59:07] sledging on their face, this kind of [59:08] thing. You know, I'm sure when I was in [59:11] my 20s, you know, people in their 50s [59:13] were probably like, "What are these kids [59:14] doing?" You know, and it wasn't in [59:16] anything like this, but who knows? It [59:18] was like baggy pants and like you know [59:20] and like there was weird stuff going on [59:21] like hacky sacks and stuff. So not me, [59:23] not me. But I'm confident that thanks to [59:26] you we've framed the history of this [59:28] which by the way is fascinating [59:29] >> and kind of where we are now very very [59:32] well. So thank you. Thank you. Thank [59:34] you. Thank you. [59:35] >> I have two questions. Um well one [59:37] comment and one question. The comment is [59:38] I think there's a third category of [59:41] problematic outcome. One you said is [59:43] this thing works spectacularly well for [59:45] a number of important problems to solve [59:47] important problems and we don't find out [59:49] about it because it wasn't looked at [59:50] carefully. The other is it's [59:51] detrimental. There's the other one which [59:54] is we start hearing about adverse events [59:56] y [59:57] >> and it goes kind of the way of the dodo [59:59] or it kind of drifts back into who you [60:02] know and is it the good stuff or not the [60:04] good stuff because we don't actually [60:06] know whether or not the the adverse [60:08] outcome was due to BPC itself to misuse [60:11] of BPC [60:12] >> or to like you know like the factors [60:14] that it's it's dissolved in or something [60:16] like that and I think that's the most [60:18] likely outcome unless we get our arms [60:20] around this and that's where you could [60:22] say like the hormone replacement therapy [60:24] field has actually enjoyed the fact that [60:25] if a woman decides she's going to take [60:27] progesterone or estrogen replacement [60:28] therapy permenopausal or or menopausal [60:31] or something for PCOS or whatever that [60:33] wouldn't be what to take for PCOS but [60:34] you get the idea or a guy decides in his [60:37] you know 40s or 50s or whatever it is [60:39] okay he's going to go on TRT he can do [60:41] it carefully she can do it carefully [60:43] >> and knows what adverse outcomes to look [60:46] for no one's thinking oh my god the [60:47] sesame oil that's dissolved in is [60:50] possibly causing these problems [60:51] >> well some people will will be very [60:53] particular on which oil their [60:55] testosterone comes in. [60:56] >> That's in the gym community. Yeah. Yeah. [60:57] Totally with you. And where to inject [60:58] and so forth. But that aside, my concern [61:01] is that it is kind of wild westish. [61:04] >> Yes, it is. [61:05] >> And I'm not so concerned I'll get in [61:07] trouble for this, but whatever. [61:08] >> I'm not so concerned that these actual [61:10] compounds are necessarily harming [61:12] people. I worry that the way they're [61:13] arriving to people is harming them, and [61:16] we're going to miss out on that first [61:18] possibility that these are very useful. [61:19] And of course, I don't want anyone [61:21] getting hurt. [61:22] >> So, here comes the question. As a [61:24] physician, I realize that you are more [61:26] than peptide curious. You're very [61:27] peptide friendly in your own life. You [61:29] know, if you have a patient who has, you [61:33] know, just their gut is a mess or [61:35] they're dealing with, you know, [61:36] postsurgical issues and you know that [61:39] BPC from the right source is either [61:42] going to be benign or could potentially [61:45] help them. What kind of position does [61:47] that put you in? Yep. [61:48] >> As an American board-certified [61:50] physician, [61:50] >> very uncomfortable position because if [61:52] I'm, you know, rounding on a patient in [61:54] the wards of a hospital and like, hey, [61:56] you should take BPC instead of your [61:57] pentopol, I'll probably get my license [61:59] revoked. So, not a good idea. Don't do [62:00] that. [62:01] >> What about in addition to [62:02] >> in addition to so like if they come see [62:03] me in clinic, that might be a place [62:05] where we can have that discussion. We're [62:06] going to see very shortly here what the [62:08] FDA is going to tell us about BPC and [62:10] all these other peptides and the [62:11] legality of them. if they get moved to [62:14] the category one list and then the [62:15] states say like hey the FDA said so [62:17] we're not going to look we're not going [62:18] to care about this you can do what you [62:19] want to do as a physician and you [62:21] counsel the patient like you have an [62:22] honest discussion with the patient I [62:24] think that's what it should be it should [62:24] be between the physician and the patient [62:26] like hey there's this promising compound [62:28] it's not FDA approved we have minimal to [62:30] no human data but we have anecdata are [62:34] you willing to try this on yourself and [62:37] we'll monitor you we'll have clear [62:39] endpoints for that should be what this [62:41] looks like frank discussion between a [62:43] physician and a patient. Now, if that [62:45] patient has an adverse effect, they can [62:46] go to a medical board and say like, [62:47] "Hey, Dr. so and so gave me BP157 and I [62:50] had a bad effect and I would be like, [62:52] "Hey, you gave them a non-FDA approved [62:53] compound." A for injectable. B, the [62:56] problem is there's orals that are being [62:58] sold as supplements now, like BBC 57 as [63:00] an oral available supplement because [63:02] it's not a medication. It's never been [63:04] uh approved as a medication in the [63:05] United States. So, what is BBC's legal [63:08] status? Is it dietary available? [63:10] Therefore, cuz if you, you know, cut up [63:12] an animal and ate its stomach, you'd [63:14] probably get some BBC in. [63:15] >> Well, I can buy desicated liver t. [63:17] >> I'm eating livers. [63:18] >> There there's tons of [63:18] >> You can go buy liver at the this like [63:20] one Michelin star restaurant, not down [63:22] this road, but a different road. Yeah. [63:24] >> Yeah. I mean, like Dr. Cavson identified [63:25] many peptides in livers like ligen [63:27] ovagen that you'd find in your [63:28] desiccated liver supplement that you're [63:29] eat. It's like the the biggest [63:30] distributors of peptides have been these [63:32] organ meat companies because each organ [63:34] has a signature peptide that comes out [63:36] of it. [63:36] >> Do they get absorbed? [63:37] >> Yes. [63:38] >> Are they bioavailable active? [63:39] >> Dr. Dr. Cavins's work suggests that it [63:41] is. Dr. Vladimir McCavson is this [63:43] Russian Soviet scientist that gives us [63:45] epital and thyolin and pinealon and all [63:48] these Russian peptides. Die and [63:49] tripeptides can be orally available if [63:52] they're the right shape and size. [63:54] >> They're not very well uh available, but [63:56] they can be available. So, you won't [63:57] necessarily get it from the organ uh [64:00] isolate or from the or eating the organ [64:02] like like if you eat heart probably very [64:05] rich in lcarnitine. Can my body make [64:07] good use of that? I mean, there's [64:09] cardiogen, which is one of the the heart [64:10] peptides that that was scantly studied [64:13] uh in the late 2000s that may be orally [64:14] bioavailable. The problem is no one's [64:16] doing the work to figure that out. You [64:17] painted this picture where not you [64:20] perhaps, but let's just say um another [64:22] physician has the awareness that BPC57 [64:26] might be useful to a patient of theirs [64:27] that's dealing with a they had like an [64:29] ACL tear. They're not recovering very [64:32] quickly. Doctor says, "Listen, you're [64:34] doing everything correctly. there's this [64:36] new category of stuff. We don't have a [64:39] lot of data on it. I'm not aware that [64:41] there are any severe risks, but they [64:42] they could be there. So, if you're [64:43] willing to embrace those unknowns, you [64:46] could take x number of micrograms or [64:48] milligrams per day for 2 weeks and see [64:50] how you feel. Patient says, "Okay, I'm [64:52] willing to do that." The physician says, [64:55] "Okay, you want to make sure that it's [64:57] real and you want to make sure that it's [64:58] clean, there's not no contaminants." Y [65:00] >> if that physician says, you know, I can [65:03] write you a script for it and this [65:05] compounding pharmacy will send it to you [65:08] and they're making money on it. A lot of [65:10] people, well, the moment they hear that, [65:12] they think, oh, well, they're totally [65:13] incentivized to do this cuz they're [65:14] going to get a cut. But if we go back to [65:16] the original pharma model, it is a [65:19] little bit of a different situation, [65:21] right? Because let's say Lily charges [65:24] $1,500 for a pen of some sort of GLP. [65:27] the physician who prescribes that are [65:29] they getting a cut of that 1500? [65:31] >> They don't. They don't. [65:32] >> But there are kickbacks and, you know, [65:33] pharmaceutical incentives and pharma [65:35] deals. Those are real. [65:36] >> It's flights to Hawaii for a conference. [65:38] >> Really? So, there are real incentives [65:39] even though they're not getting paid [65:41] directly. [65:41] >> Yeah. There's there's always incentives [65:42] in in any kind of business, especially a [65:45] business as big as pharmaceutical. [65:46] >> Well, physicians are already getting [65:47] paid. So, I'm not saying that. I mean, [65:48] these are these are peripheral [65:50] incentives. Well, the the farmers also [65:51] lobby a lot of the medical schools and [65:53] they, you know, got there's a lot. [65:54] >> So, there's a relationship there, but [65:55] it's not cold hard cash. [65:56] >> Sorry, as direct as the compound, [65:58] >> but in a compounding pharmacy now, this [65:59] physician, hypothetical physician, could [66:01] say, "Hey, you know what? You can get it [66:02] from this compounding pharmacy and it's [66:04] going to be 500 bucks." The patient, [66:06] we've now established because they've [66:07] heard this podcast, has a right to say, [66:08] "What are you paying for it versus what [66:10] you're charging me?" They might lie. [66:11] They might tell you the truth. Or the [66:13] physician could say, "You know what? I'm [66:14] not making a dime on this. It's just I [66:16] think it might be useful to you." that [66:17] physician is protected or not protected [66:20] if something negative happens to the [66:21] patient. Something happens to they is [66:23] somebody suing a compounding pharmacy or [66:24] they're suing their physician. [66:25] >> They're suing all three. They're suing [66:26] the physician, the compounded pharmacy [66:28] and and anyone who recommended it. So [66:29] >> that's pretty scary. [66:30] >> No malpractice provider is going to give [66:32] you coverage for peptides, especially [66:34] non FDA approved peptides unless [66:36] there's, you know, high risk malpractice [66:37] providers that that will cover you for [66:38] that. Let's say somebody gets hurt [66:40] taking uh one of the prescribed pharma [66:43] GLPS and they they're pissed and they [66:45] and they sue they sue their doctor or [66:46] they sue the pharma company depending on [66:48] who who had the liability. So if the [66:50] doctor didn't warn you that you know [66:51] injecting 10 times a dose might cause [66:53] pancreatitis and you had pancreatitis [66:54] they can claim the doctor is at fault. [66:56] If someone has deep pockets they can go [66:57] at Lily and say like hey Lily you didn't [66:59] disclose this risk. I think now people [67:01] thanks to you are armed with enough [67:03] information to be able to make really [67:05] good decisions about whether or not to [67:07] say eh waiting for those clinical trial [67:09] results or I'll stick my toe in the pond [67:12] or I'm going to continue to learn more [67:14] but I'm going to now learn more thanks [67:15] to you genuinely with a lot more [67:18] understanding about how this stuff flows [67:22] from website or from doctor to patient. [67:25] >> Let's talk about pinealon. [67:27] >> Yeah, [67:27] >> pinealon is one that most people [67:29] probably haven't heard of. Mhm. [67:30] [clears throat] [67:30] >> I'll just go on record saying I've tried [67:32] it a few times or more. I don't take it [67:34] regularly, but I tried it before sleep. [67:36] Yep. [67:36] >> If I take it at the beginning of the [67:38] night, it reduces my deep slowwave sleep [67:41] and gives me far more REM across the [67:43] night. Not a great situation. [67:45] >> Y [67:46] >> great situation is if I go to sleep, get [67:48] my usual ration of deep sleep. If I [67:50] happen to wake up in the middle of the [67:52] night to use the restroom once or so, [67:54] not uncommon, if I do a very small [67:56] injection of pinealon at that point, the [67:59] one and a half hours of REM that I would [68:01] get in the final hours of my sleep, now [68:03] I'm getting 3 hours in the same amount [68:05] of sleep. It's just a higher fraction of [68:07] REM. Y [68:08] >> sometimes wake up feeling a little [68:09] groggy, but it is a whole other life to [68:13] get that much REM. I don't do it [68:14] regularly. It's not, you know, I would [68:16] say maybe three times a month, but [68:18] here's the interesting thing. It [68:19] improves my percentage of REM on all the [68:23] other nights in between those three [68:25] injections. [68:26] >> So I'm coming clean here. [68:27] >> Lingering effects. [68:28] >> Very cool. You're interested in [68:30] pinealone for a whole other set of [68:31] reasons. But first of all, what is [68:32] pinealone and where does it act? Does it [68:34] have a known receptor? [68:35] >> No known receptor. So pinealon is a [68:36] tripeptide edr discovered by the [68:39] mentioned of Dr. Vladimir Cavinson. He's [68:41] a Soviet researcher that comes out of [68:43] this Soviet era research to make [68:46] soldiers, astronauts, and pilots uh [68:49] better. There's concern that the US [68:50] might be using lasers to to shoot at [68:52] soldiers. So, the Soviet Union um tasks [68:55] him with identifying peptides to defend [68:57] soldiers, their eyes, and then they're [68:59] aging because what would happen is [69:01] they'd be in a submarine for a few [69:02] months, there'd be a nuclear sub, and [69:04] they'd they'd come back to shore and [69:06] they'd be like, you know, these [69:07] submariners, let's call them, would look [69:09] 10, 20 years older. also happens to [69:10] astronauts. [69:11] >> Yes. So then the same the same thing as [69:13] astronauts are coming back they're [69:14] they're aged. So Vladimir Cavson is [69:16] looking at this and he's like hey [69:16] there's there's got to be a solution for [69:18] this. There's been literature about [69:20] using extracts of other tissues notably [69:23] the pineal gland and the thymus from you [69:26] know late 1800s till this this 1970s uh [69:29] point that we're you know starting our [69:31] story. And he starts grounding up these [69:34] um extracts [clears throat] and [69:35] injecting it into these people and then [69:36] undoing a lot of this aging effects [69:38] through pineal extracts and thymus [69:40] extracts because these what do these [69:42] soldiers have? They had very bad [69:44] circadian rhythmicity. So they they [69:46] can't couldn't sleep properly. They had [69:47] terrible immunity. They'd get sick [69:49] often. They'd be uh have autoimmune [69:51] problems. All these conditions that come [69:53] with it. And then they were able to undo [69:55] this using these organ extracts. So [69:57] Vladimir Cavson takes it a step further. [70:00] He looks like, hey, what's causing this [70:01] effect in these in these tissues? Like [70:03] people have been injecting pineal glands [70:05] in different research models or taking [70:06] out pineal glands from rats from the [70:08] 1800s onwards. He finds peptides in [70:10] these extracts. He's like, "Huh, I [70:12] wonder if these effects are from the [70:14] peptides, not from this the gland [70:15] itself." So then he sequences from the [70:18] pineal gland epialon and from the thymus [70:22] gland a couple different peptides vyon [70:24] thyogen cristaggen that you'll be [70:26] hearing about in the next few years that [70:28] on their own do a lot of the effects [70:29] that the whole extract would would do. [70:31] Now you're talking about epialon but [70:33] pinealon and epon [70:34] >> is not from the pineal gland [70:35] >> is not from the pineal gland [70:36] >> even though everyone [70:38] >> no I think it's called that because [70:39] there's there's as far as I understand [70:40] please correct me if I'm wrong there are [70:42] animal data suggesting that pinealon can [70:45] help either regenerate or enhance the [70:48] the general functioning of pinealytes. [70:50] So it's having an effect on the pineal [70:52] when cult like you take cultured pineal [70:53] glands like little PI gland you put it [70:55] in a dish and you dissociate the cells [70:57] or keep it you know as a little P-siz [70:58] thing and then you give it pinealon and [71:00] seems to improve the timing and perhaps [71:03] even the amount of melatonin output from [71:05] the pineal these kinds of [71:06] >> epialon does that so that's a big [71:08] confusion I don't know why he named them [71:10] the way he named them if anyone knows [71:11] please let us know but epalon is from [71:13] the pineal gland pinealon comes from a [71:16] groundup brain extract called cortexin [71:19] >> and brain has a pineal in it. [71:21] >> Yeah. But it was the cortex [71:22] specifically, not not the subcortical [71:24] regions. So he specifically not the [71:26] subcortical regions. So flavon [71:29] identifies he makes a drug in Russia. [71:30] It's called epialamine which is the [71:32] pineal gland extract and had great [71:33] effect on circadian rhythmicity and it's [71:36] rich with melatonin basically giving [71:38] people melatonin [71:39] >> but also you up with enzyme that creates [71:41] melatonin from from serotonin to an [71:42] acetyl serotonin to melatonin. So like [71:44] um when he gave it to young monkeys, the [71:47] monkeys had no effect, but he gave it to [71:49] age monkeys that have decreased [71:50] melatonin and you know from puberty [71:52] onwards your melatonin levels [71:53] dramatically decrease. He was able to [71:55] restore melatonin production in these [71:57] aged animals and eventually replicated [71:58] it on humans. [71:59] >> I want to talk about thymus because it's [72:01] fascinating and you are truly aversed in [72:04] this. But before we do that, [72:06] >> so pineal [clears throat] comes from the [72:07] cortex, not the pineal. That's annoying. [72:10] >> Yes, very annoying. [72:10] >> Um maybe we just rename it today. I'll [72:12] let you do the renaming. We'll call it [72:13] EDR. [72:14] >> EDR. [72:15] >> That's the three amino acid sequence. [72:16] >> Great. We'll call it EDR so people don't [72:18] get confused. What are some of the known [72:20] effects? Or am I just imagining this REM [72:22] increase? Because I can't change what's [72:25] happening to me during sleep. Y that [72:27] would be an amazing placebo effect. And [72:29] the reason I say amazing is there are [72:31] many things that one can do to improve [72:33] the amount of slowwave deep sleep. Not [72:35] eating too close to bedtime, doing some [72:36] exercise early in the day, etc., etc. [72:38] very hard to increase REM except by [72:40] heating your sleep environment in the [72:42] last third of your night and maybe some [72:44] alpha GPC in the late day can bump it up [72:47] a bit or you can REM deprive yourself or [72:49] you can smoke cannabis for 10 years then [72:51] quit and then you'll get a lot of REM [72:52] because you got no REM for 10 years do [72:53] not recommend that protocol but [72:56] >> for me it was just striking so why would [72:58] EDR [72:59] >> tripeptide with no receptor [73:00] >> right previously called pinealon but [73:02] [laughter] from here uh here forward EDR [73:05] why would that have this effect on on [73:08] REM sleep. [73:09] >> Yep. And and I actually searched through [73:11] all of the literature from Cavson. He [73:12] never mentions REM sleep once in his [73:14] studies. He studied pinealon quite [73:16] extensively on different neuronal tissue [73:17] extracts, animal studies, even in in [73:19] athletes and never mentions the REM [73:21] sleep. They weren't having they didn't [73:22] have Whoops in the 1970s in the Soviet [73:24] Union. They didn't have an eight sleep. [73:25] You're kidding me. No. [73:27] >> So they didn't have, you know, sleep [73:28] trackers in the 1970s uh when it came to [73:30] to these. So there was no reports on on [73:33] that. But what seems to be happening, [73:34] let's see, what is this on this edr? [73:37] It's a tripeptide that um meets the [73:40] groove of the DNA of different key [73:42] regions and helps the promoter region be [73:44] exposed. So then that DNA transduction [73:46] can happen uh translation transcription. [73:49] So you get [73:49] >> it's turning on genetic programs. [73:51] >> Yes. [73:51] >> It's acting a little bit like a [73:53] transcription factor. [73:54] >> Yeah. Yeah. Almost like that or maybe [73:55] assisting transcription factors in [73:57] accessing the DNA in the right places. [73:59] So pinealon in in one sentence it's [74:01] leading to better brain metabolism [74:04] through modulating all these different [74:05] pathways. for example GDF11 sod one sod [74:08] 2 uh iris PPR alpha PPR gamma so what [74:11] seems to be happening so he made [74:13] pinealon as a anti-stress um cognitive [74:16] performance compound [74:18] >> uh and it was available orally in like [74:20] Kazakhstan to [74:21] >> that I'm taking before sleep I should be [74:23] taking in the morning [74:24] >> yes so if you take a high enough dose [74:25] there is sedation from it but if you [74:27] take it in the morning or prehit workout [74:29] you get quite an interesting effect so [74:31] he studied this um compound on athletes [74:33] and he would uh do have them do their [74:35] training session, go to exhaustion and [74:37] then do a test afterwards. And there's [74:39] two groups, pinealon and the placebo. [74:41] The pinealon group could keep their [74:42] performance up despite uh being [74:45] maximally exhausted from their training. [74:46] >> I feel like such a dummy. Here I am [74:48] having like these elaborate dreams I [74:49] don't really remember or care about when [74:51] I could be actually thinking better [74:53] during the daytime. [74:54] >> Yeah. So, a lot of people report less [74:55] brain fog, you know, better thinking. Uh [74:58] a friend that has a a you know, nine [74:59] figure company has all of his employees [75:01] on pineal on. They're taking it in the [75:02] morning. [75:03] >> In the morning, uh, or at night, [75:04] depending on, [75:04] >> do you know the dosages? Not that we're [75:06] recommending it. [75:07] >> Orally, people will take anywhere [75:08] between, you know, half a milligram up [75:10] to three milligrams is what where people [75:13] um, settle in. Um, the Cavson ones that [75:15] that come from Russia are like 200 [75:17] micrograms. [75:18] >> Some people are injecting it. [75:19] >> Some people are injecting it. [75:20] >> It goes systemic. [75:21] >> Ego systemic. It's orally available [75:22] through these uh, Latin pep [75:24] transporters. [75:25] >> Crosses the bloodb brain barrier [75:26] >> most likely. Yes. [75:27] >> Okay. Okay. Cuz it's coming from cortex, [75:28] but otherwise we're the way you're [75:30] describing it, we're putting no one's [75:31] infusing into the brain. [75:32] >> No one's so we're assuming it's small [75:34] enough. It's trieptide to cross the the [75:36] bloodb brain barrier. [75:37] >> Have you tried it? [75:37] >> I mean, I took some last night, but [75:39] >> Okay. [laughter] [75:39] At night. [75:40] >> Yeah. So, I I will take larger dosages [75:42] uh if I want to get good sleep. I'll [75:44] describe as 8K. Some people it will [75:47] cause them to have a little bit of [75:48] awakening um at first. That may be why [75:50] your deep sleep was going away. I'll say [75:52] this. [75:53] >> If I take half of what was recommended, [75:56] I'm great. But I'm very sensitive to [75:58] everything. Just sensitive. If I take [76:00] what was recommended, I fall very deeply [76:02] asleep. I have elaborate dreams and I [76:04] wake up. Yeah. And I couldn't tell if [76:06] that was a disruption in sleep [76:07] architecture. [76:09] I just found and and granted I'm only [76:11] doing this three times per month [76:12] maximum. And I often forget and then I [76:14] go months and months and I was like, oh, [76:15] maybe I'll take a little pineal. Whoa, [76:18] this is wild. and then I'd stop taking [76:20] it because because I don't know enough [76:21] about it. Now, I know it's cleanly [76:23] sourced because I trust the compounding [76:25] pharmacy it's coming from, but I should [76:26] ask, are there any known risks of EDR? [76:29] >> So far, nothing in the Russian [76:31] literature. So, big caveat, it's Russian [76:33] literature. It's not gold standard [76:34] American research that we love here. Um, [76:36] so there's nothing that's come up as a, [76:38] you know, clear sign because what what [76:40] it seems the big theory of Cavson is [76:42] that as you're when you're younger, you [76:44] make a lot of these peptides naturally. [76:46] these tri die tri and tetropeptides and [76:50] as you age they go down in function and [76:52] quantity and by [clears throat] [76:53] replenishing these peptides you're [76:55] restoring some aspect of youthfulness [76:57] >> something similar happens in America [76:58] with GHK copper which is another [76:59] tripeptide that's technically like the [77:01] collagen regulator so the brain [77:04] regulator and GHK copper is the collagen [77:06] regulator but so far the the side [77:08] effects we've noticed we have the [77:10] probably the biggest anecdotal [77:12] compilation of N equals 1 every every [77:13] day I wake up someone texts me be like [77:15] hey Pineelon did this to me some will [77:16] have a little drop in blood sugar [77:18] because it activates PPR alpha PPR [77:20] gamma. So it'll have positive metabolic [77:22] effects. So that's something to keep an [77:24] eye out. And in some people even had [77:25] their A1C's drop. So [77:28] >> hypoglycemics and other people blood [77:29] sugar issues take extra caution. [77:31] >> And then very vivid dreams for some [77:33] people that could be disheartening if if [77:35] they have like you know nightmares or [77:36] something like that. But very very vivid [77:39] dreams uh as a result of a pinealon [77:41] especially like the the color and the [77:43] the quality of the dreams is very [77:45] different than you'd normally expect. [77:47] What seems to be happening [77:49] >> is like just like you know psychedelics [77:51] change the redux state of the brain. [77:53] Pinealon is doing something similar [77:55] where you're getting more alertness [77:57] during the day [77:58] >> like you don't wake up with as much [77:59] brain fog uh at least anecdotally. Uh [78:01] you get better performance during like [78:03] high-intensity interval training and [78:05] then you get more REM sleep at night. um [78:07] because the neurons are in a better [78:09] oxidative state thanks to the PPR alpha [78:11] PPR gamma iris and all these different [78:12] pathways that it's modulating [78:14] >> um with no clear one you know receptor [78:16] that it's doing it through. [78:18] >> I'd like to take a quick break and [78:19] acknowledge our sponsor function. [78:22] Function provides over 160 advanced lab [78:25] tests to give you a clear snapshot of [78:26] your bodily health. This snapshot gives [78:29] you insights into your heart health, [78:30] your hormone health, autoimmune [78:32] function, nutrient levels, and much [78:34] more. They've also recently added access [78:36] to advanced MRI and CT scans. Function [78:39] not only provides testing of over 160 [78:41] biomarkers key to your physical and [78:43] mental health. 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[79:25] And the data, frankly, were not all that [79:27] good. But now with Function, it's [79:29] extremely easy and affordable. A [79:31] function membership is only a dollar a [79:33] day, $365 a year. And if you think about [79:35] the information it provides and the [79:37] health challenges it helps you avoid and [79:39] the proactive things that it can do for [79:41] you to enhance your health, I truly look [79:43] at it as a savings. To learn more, visit [79:46] functionhealth.com/huberman [79:48] and use the code hubman for a $50 credit [79:50] towards your membership. Again, that's [79:52] functionhealth.com/huberman. [79:55] >> What about epital, which turns out comes [79:57] from the pineal? I'd love your thoughts [79:59] on this. I've heard and I thought it was [80:01] complete nonsense when I first heard it [80:03] that the pineal becomes calcified as [80:06] people age. The reason I thought it was [80:08] nonsense is I used to co-e neuro anatomy [80:10] when I was at UCSD before moving my lab [80:12] to Stanford with a guy named Harvey [80:13] Carton. You guys can look him up. [80:15] Unfortunately, he passed away. He was in [80:16] his late 80s and he had this incredible [80:18] career as a I think one of the greatest [80:21] neuroanatomists of the last hundred [80:23] years. It's a that's a good category to [80:26] be in because we have like Kahal who's [80:27] like discovered everything basically and [80:29] then the rest of neuroscientists are [80:30] just kind of tinkering around with what [80:32] he predicted and then a few other neuro [80:34] anatomists like Ted Jones is there but [80:35] he's like the neuroanatomist of my [80:37] generation and I asked him about this [80:40] calcification thing cuz he had looked at [80:43] the brains of so many different species [80:44] including humans. He was also an MD by [80:46] the way and he goes, "Yeah, I don't know [80:48] whether or not this calcification thing [80:50] is real." M [80:51] >> and he kind of brushed it aside and I [80:52] thought well Harvey doesn't take it [80:53] seriously so I'm not going to take it [80:54] seriously but even though he was [80:57] absolutely right about many many things [80:59] I think he might have missed that one [81:01] because when I go to the literature now [81:03] it's a little bit tough because the [81:04] cadaavvers that you looked at in medical [81:06] school and not all of them are processed [81:08] on the same timeline right it's not [81:09] thankfully it's not a controlled science [81:11] right these are people that generously [81:13] donate their bodies to science right [81:16] >> does our pineal calcify and even if it [81:18] does does that somehow inhibit its [81:21] ability to communicate with our other [81:22] tissues. [81:23] >> It's it's a big kind of debatable thing [81:25] in in the pineal research. If you look [81:27] at the pineal gland Wikipedia, it's very [81:29] under uh developed, let's say, because [81:31] it's kind of woowoo. Like when you think [81:32] of pineal gland, you think of someone [81:34] who's going to sell you [81:34] >> a neuroscientist chooses to work on the [81:36] pineal. [81:36] >> They should, but it's not a very sexy. [81:38] >> It sounds like someone's going to sell [81:39] you crystals or something about your [81:40] >> It's not very sexy. Yeah. [81:42] >> But I think it's it's a key aspect of [81:44] aging and longevity. So that's that's [81:45] what gives us, you know, our interest in [81:47] it. the pineal gland. Um it seems from [81:50] Caven's work that the decrease in pineal [81:53] gland function with aging is more of a [81:54] physiologic than a anatomic problem. Now [81:57] I will see some calcification on MRI is [81:59] when we have a patient come in for like [82:00] a stroke or you know TBI will look at [82:02] their MRI and I'm like hey there's that [82:03] looks like a little bit calcification [82:04] there. uh maybe my neurology colleagues [82:07] will disagree but that seems to happen [82:10] but the question is what is actually [82:11] leading to the deterioration of [82:12] melatonin synthesis because it decreases [82:14] quite dramatically and some people even [82:16] think that might start puberty like if [82:18] you have a pineal pineal cyst you can [82:20] have precocious puberty like eight or [82:22] nine years old [82:22] >> the rhythmicity in melatonin because a [82:24] young baby very young baby their [82:27] melatonin secretion is not very rhythmic [82:29] but they're in REM like a lot a lot of [82:32] their sleep is REM it's a beautiful [82:34] thing Right. With time it becomes more [82:36] rhythmic. And of course in today's day [82:38] and age with all the artificial lighting [82:39] and the lack of sunlight exposure things [82:41] that you and I care a lot about. Um [82:42] people are making themselves somewhat [82:44] arythmic or phase shifted. [82:48] >> But [clears throat] epialen is somehow [82:50] restoring pinealytes is somehow [82:52] enhancing function of the pineal and [82:54] other tissues. [82:55] >> Yep. So uh in in cabin's work he's found [82:57] that it will increase the expression of [83:00] the different clock genes. So in like [83:02] you know lymphosytes that he'll measure [83:03] in peripheral tissues he'll notice that [83:05] the clock genes actually change. So in a [83:07] more rhythmic pattern he'll notice that [83:09] morning cortisol is higher. Great. Which [83:12] by the way folks I've said this in the [83:14] cortisol episode. You want your morning [83:16] cortisol super super high. You want your [83:17] evening and nighttime cortisol low. If [83:19] you're a resident in medical school just [83:21] listen to what your superiors say. They [83:22] don't give a [ __ ] about your cortisol [83:24] levels. You got to do the hard work and [83:25] then uh later you get to later you get [83:28] to go to bed. It's a little weird that [83:30] the medical profession tortures their [83:31] own by disrupting one of the one of the [83:34] primary anchors of health. Yep. [83:36] >> And and cognitive function, right? I [83:38] mean, I've had 28 hour shifts and that's [83:40] what got me interested in security. [83:41] >> You're young. You're good. You're good. [83:43] But yeah, the idea was it was restoring [83:45] a more um circadian appropriate hormonal [83:48] profile through you know HTH cortisol [83:51] >> taken when [83:52] >> anytime because the idea with these bio [83:54] regulators unlike you know a GLP-1 drug [83:56] that you take today and have the effect [83:58] for the next week the idea from the [84:00] cavonin model is that you take these and [84:02] then you acrewue benefits when you're [84:04] off of them like you notice with [84:05] pinealon you took pinealon for a day or [84:08] two or three days a month and you had [84:09] effects until you took the next dose. So [84:11] the idea is can you acrue benefits from [84:14] these compounds as they upregulate or [84:16] downregulate certain genetic pathways in [84:18] a more favorable state and then keep [84:19] those effects later on. So in the cavson [84:22] seminal work was this 15y year um [84:24] longevity study he got people in nursing [84:26] homes two groups one them got echalon in [84:30] the form of epathalamine which is the [84:32] whole pineal gland extract and then a [84:33] thymus peptide called thyolin not [84:36] thyulin there's two different peptides a [84:38] lot of people confuse them every peptide [84:39] website confuses them but I inject them [84:42] for 15 years like a 10 or 20 day course [84:45] per year just just uh beginning of the [84:47] year middle of the year and that's it [84:48] and they had a significant lower [84:50] mortality when it came to cardiovascular [84:52] disease, uh, infectious risk and for, [84:54] um, cancers. So, Russian study, caveat, [84:58] but that would would be the most [85:00] interesting longevity study I've seen [85:02] done if accurate, if true, uh, because [85:04] he was able to take nursing home [85:05] patients, give them peptides for, you [85:07] know, very small amount of the year, and [85:09] yet they accred benefits the rest of the [85:10] year. [85:10] >> Impressive. Uh, one of the things that [85:12] really got me excited about epalon, is [85:15] italon or talon? The Russians say epylon [85:17] is the the way they say it, but it's [85:19] spelled with a th Okay. So, I'll say [85:21] epal whoever wants, you know, we're [85:23] making the rules today. So, [85:24] >> okay, epitoon is also a a DG. That's [85:26] that's the amino acid for amino acid. [85:28] >> I'll say epialin because it's uh easiest [85:30] for me and forgive me if anyone takes [85:32] offense. I took interest because uh in [85:35] my former life running a lab focused on [85:38] among other things uh visual pathway [85:41] repair y um to reverse blindness or [85:44] impending blindness. Um there's some [85:46] interesting papers and there I can [85:48] really gauge the data even though [85:49] they're in mice. I can say this is a [85:50] real effect or like a me effect or like [85:52] a wo effect using epialin to combat some [85:56] of the neurodeeneration in things like [85:58] uh retinitis pigmentotosa downstream [86:00] neurodeeneration in RP uh which is a [86:02] very common unfortunately blinding [86:04] disease or even in glaucoma. Y [86:07] >> I should mention that BPC57 to my [86:09] knowledge hasn't been looked at [86:10] extensively in terms of optic nerve [86:12] repair but it absolutely should be. If [86:13] if someone knows those papers, please [86:15] put them in the comments. So, I was [86:17] intrigued. Yep. Like, there's this [86:18] molecule that's somehow involved in DNA [86:20] repair, [86:21] >> and it's uh either maintaining or [86:24] restoring some of the machinery that [86:25] would otherwise definitely be lost in [86:27] one of these optic nerve damage [86:28] conditions that models things like [86:30] glaucoma, retinitis, pigmentotosa, [86:32] stroke, uh traumatic head injury. It's a [86:34] big deal. Yep. Vision and movement are [86:35] kind of the biggies. I mean there are [86:36] other things too but like you know you [86:38] don't want to lose those and if you do [86:39] you can get by but it you need [86:41] additional support obviously. So the [86:45] reason it's so interesting to me is that [86:46] it's getting to DNA repair as opposed to [86:49] these downstream [86:51] um you know working on any number of [86:53] vague receptorish maybe no receptor [86:56] things like and this is what gene [86:57] therapy is about. [86:58] >> Yep. So do you think of epien as kind of [87:00] a gene therapy of sorts or do you think [87:02] about it more as support for genetic [87:04] machinery that has lots of downstream [87:06] targets? [87:07] >> Yes, I think it it supports this genetic [87:09] machinery. Um when it comes to the eyes, [87:12] it seems to be repairing some of the [87:14] photo receptors that might get damaged [87:16] in a red pigmentotosa. Melanopsin wasn't [87:18] discovered when when Cavson was was [87:20] kicking it around. But I would my my [87:23] theory is that epiphylon is working on [87:25] melanopsin. [87:26] >> Interesting. and that it may be [87:27] upregulating melanopsin levels and then [87:29] making that morning sunlight that [87:30] everyone likes [87:31] >> to be more effective because the big [87:33] problem is a lot of people will tell me [87:35] doc I did morning sunlight didn't I [87:36] didn't feel the effects I'm like have [87:38] you had enough darkness to regenerate [87:39] melanopsin levels because we know that [87:42] uh in animal studies 5 days of pure [87:44] darkness dramatically increases the [87:45] amount of melanopsin in the redness [87:47] >> this is interesting and I certainly have [87:48] a lot of close close friends that are in [87:51] a position to do these studies um and [87:53] you know the podcast is obviously [87:54] available free to everyone but we have a [87:56] premium channel that funds research. We [87:59] don't talk a lot about it, but we we've [88:00] given a lot of money away to excellent [88:02] laboratories where they're free to [88:03] explore these things. I'd love to see [88:04] some of the studies that we're talking [88:05] about today supported. And by the way, [88:07] that's done in collaboration with donors [88:09] that do a match. So, we could get the [88:11] right people to do the right studies [88:13] with no bias toward what the preferred [88:16] outcome is. In fact, the scientists that [88:19] we both know, the right ones, would try [88:21] and disprove the hypothesis that any of [88:23] this stuff was real. And if some makes [88:26] it through that filter, then they would [88:27] conclude it's real. Otherwise, they're [88:29] trying to essentially knock down the the [88:31] the quoteunquote positive outcome. Yep. [88:33] I mean, and I think as a clinician, one [88:35] of the key things to pe for people to [88:37] remember is that we've screwed up a lot [88:39] of times as clinicians through different [88:41] grotesque abuses of our, you know, [88:43] trust. We've done, you know, [88:45] interventions or drugs that weren't the [88:47] most efficacious. For example, like in [88:49] the 1910s to 1940s, we irradiated the [88:53] thymuses of young kids to prevent SIDS. [88:56] This was considered gold standard [88:57] medicine. Like [88:58] >> does it have anything to do with SIDS? [88:59] >> No, they thought that sudden infant [89:01] death. [89:01] >> They thought that the thymus was too big [89:02] and was sitting on the heart and that [89:03] might be the cause. So tons of these [89:05] kids, you know, I think at least 10,000 [89:06] died from cancers. No, I think the only [89:08] person that's talked about it is he has [89:10] a video talking about this. So we've had [89:12] a lot of issues as a as a as a field. We [89:14] have to be very cognizant of that and [89:16] know the history of where we've been [89:17] like like Verkow of the famous Verkow [89:19] triad. He was like pro this therapy [89:22] >> and we all know learn about it in [89:24] medical school but no one talks about [89:25] this aspect. So there's a lot of [89:26] grotesque abuses of medical power. Let's [89:29] say we have to be very careful in which [89:30] interventions we give people and the [89:32] first things like do no harm. So while [89:34] we are you know excited about these [89:36] therapies we have to be kind of careful [89:37] in where we're taking people. [89:38] >> Appreciate that. I wasn't aware of that [89:40] study. Perfect um tea up for uh no pun [89:44] for the thymus. Tell me about the [89:45] thymus. Um super interesting organ. [89:48] >> Yep. [89:49] >> We gland. [89:50] >> Yep. [89:50] >> We all have one when we're born. [89:52] >> Yep. [89:52] >> By the time we're what age is it mostly [89:54] gone? [89:55] >> So the thymus is grown under the [89:57] influence of a lot of these youthful [89:59] hormones, melatonin, growth hormone, um [90:01] DHEA, um and then is shrunk at the [90:04] moment you hit puberty. So until from [90:06] your the day of birth until puberty, you [90:09] grow this massive thymus. [90:10] >> Where does it sit? [90:11] >> It's right above your heart. Right [90:12] behind this [clears throat] the collar [90:13] bone. [90:13] >> How big is it? [90:14] >> It's a in in a baby, it could be quite [90:17] large on on the chest as a baseball. [90:19] >> Like maybe the size of half the heart, [90:22] let's say. Maybe bigger. Depends on on [90:23] on on the size. Right now in our bodies, [90:26] it's going to be a bunch of fat with a [90:28] couple of different globules of thyic [90:30] residue. [90:30] >> Tiny tiny. [90:31] >> Very tiny. In fact, most surgeons will [90:33] just remove it um when they do surgery [90:35] nowadays for like open heart. U but [90:37] there's, you know, good data from New [90:39] England Journal of Medicine that [90:40] removing the thymus tissue, residue [90:42] tissue leads to uh a mortality signal [90:44] within the first 5 years after those [90:46] surgeries. [90:46] >> So people have died because of thymus [90:48] removed. [90:48] >> They'll have like either higher rates of [90:50] cancers or, you know, higher rates of [90:52] autoimmune diseases if they have their [90:53] their thymuses removed. Now there are [90:55] thyomomas where people have to have [90:57] their thymus removed but we're talking [90:58] about people that you know the surgeon [90:59] is going in to do a coronary artery [91:01] bypass surgery. [91:02] >> Is the thymus neurally innervated? [91:04] >> Yes. [91:04] >> So it's getting signals from from brain [91:07] >> Vegas nerve. Yep. [91:08] >> So it's getting sorry to get technical [91:10] here but I since I did the episode in [91:12] the Vegas some people might remember [91:13] there's a lot of ascending sensory [91:15] information from the Vegas going up to [91:17] the brain. There's also motor control [91:18] from the brain going down through the [91:20] Vegas. So it's two two-way street mostly [91:22] up some down. Is the thymus controlled [91:26] by the descending is like in other words [91:28] is something going on in our brain like [91:30] stress level or or sleep controlling our [91:33] thymic? [91:33] >> There's sympathetic and parasympathetic [91:35] intervations for thymus [91:36] >> um that dictates its hormonal output [91:38] because the thymus what what is the [91:40] thymus? [91:41] >> Yeah, it's it's a gland that both [91:43] secretes hormones [91:45] >> and develops the tea cells. So your your [91:47] lymphatic cells are found in your bone [91:49] marrow that's where they're made. the [91:50] tea cells will travel up to the thymus [91:52] and get trained so they don't kill you [91:54] and they don't attack your own tissue [91:56] but attack a foreign invader or a cancer [91:58] or whatever it may be that process is [92:01] very good in youth and as you age you [92:03] get more autoimmunity more cancers etc [92:05] etc because the immune system is not as [92:06] robust [92:07] >> both because the thymus makes less of [92:09] the hormones that train the immune cells [92:11] and makes less of these immune cells [92:12] themselves so when you're you know 15 [92:15] you're making uh 10 to the eth magnitude [92:17] of these cells every single day they're [92:19] called naive T cells, they will [92:20] eventually become your CD4 and CD8 T- [92:22] cells. Uh, as you age, this number [92:24] dramatically decreases. [snorts] And [92:27] those cells will live somewhere between [92:29] 10 and 15 years. And that can kind of [92:31] gauge when the mortality window kicks in [92:33] for a lot of these different disorders. [92:35] When your thymus reaches a, you know, [92:37] minimum level of output, you get a lot [92:38] of these disorders like cancers, uh, [92:41] heart disease, autoimmunity. If you put [92:43] almost any disease and look at the [92:45] thymus um risk associated with it, it [92:48] increases as the thymus um function uh [92:51] decreases. There's a nature paper uh [92:53] 2026 just came out that looked at [92:56] cardiovascular disease and cancer [92:57] mortality and all these different [92:58] metrics that they did MRIs of people and [93:01] and the people that had the higher [93:02] thymic scores had less mortality across [93:05] every single one of these conditions. [93:07] But you said, not challenging this, but [93:09] what's surprising about that very [93:11] interesting result is that you said that [93:12] by the time you reach your you're in [93:14] your 30s, I'm in my 50s, those ages, our [93:17] ages, you there, you've got just a bit [93:19] of residual tissue there. It's just a [93:21] few cells and yet it's somehow [93:22] maintaining function. The rate of [93:24] decrease varies dramatically from person [93:26] to person. So we call this thymic [93:28] involution. So from the moment puberty [93:29] starts till um you die, your thymus is [93:33] slowly shrinking. That really happens in [93:34] your 20s and 30s. the majority of that [93:36] under the the pressure of androgens, [93:39] estrogens, progesterines and [93:40] corticosteroids. Those are driving a lot [93:42] of the shrinkage. [93:43] >> So the hormones that everyone seems to [93:45] want to increase the rest of their life [93:46] and that uh become you know active a lot [93:50] during puberty actually cause thyic [93:52] involution. [93:53] >> Yes. So like u castration will undo some [93:56] of the thyic involution. Um, pregnancy [93:59] is a great time to involute your thymus, [94:00] which makes sense because you don't want [94:02] to be having an autoimmune attack [94:03] against the baby or an immune attack [94:05] against the baby. [94:05] >> Do women's thymus disappear after [94:08] pregnancy? [94:09] >> They they involute and then will regrow [94:11] during the breastfeeding period under [94:13] the influences of growth hormone and [94:14] prolactin. So, hibernating animals will [94:16] have a dramatic shrinkage of the thymus [94:18] during hibernation and then a regrowth [94:20] um during the feeding window. Is there [94:22] any benefit to doing or taking something [94:25] to either maintain or regenerate thyic [94:28] size? So there was [94:29] >> as an as a let's just say somebody 25 or [94:32] older. [94:32] >> Yeah. There's a um interesting study [94:34] trim trial from Dr. Greg Fahhee. He's [94:37] doing a study where he's giving a [94:39] cocktail of growth hormone, metformin, [94:41] and DHEA. Uh gave that for 12 months and [94:44] had the thymic size increase on imaging. [94:46] The amount of CD4 or CD8 T cells [94:48] increase and the ratio of which [94:50] improved. uh and then some of the [94:51] markers that would show like immune cell [94:53] exhaustion like PD1 and all these [94:55] different aspects of T- cell um dynamics [94:57] also improve. So they're they're trying [94:59] to use growth hormone to regrow the [95:00] thymus. [95:01] >> Getting us directly to peptides. Many [95:04] people who are peptide curious start [95:07] asking about thymus and alpha. Is thymus [95:09] and alpha a peptide that comes from the [95:11] thymus? Thankfully they named it [95:13] appropriately this time. Uh great uh for [95:16] that. What does thymus alpha do [95:18] endogenously when you're not injecting [95:19] it or taking it? What's its normal [95:21] function? [95:22] >> So thyosin alpha 1 is part of this [95:24] thymic family of hormones that gets [95:26] secreted. It's like at least 21 amino [95:27] acids. It uh increases T- cell [95:29] development in the thymus, increases TE- [95:31] cell perforation outside the thymus and [95:33] makes the T- cells more likely to [95:35] properly attack a pathogen. Um like it's [95:38] like a you know jet fuel for the for the [95:40] tea cells. [95:40] >> So it's like proimmune. Yes. I've heard [95:42] of people taking it when they feel run [95:45] down, if they're traveling, they're [95:46] sleeping less than usual, they're a new [95:48] parent. So, obviously that's kind of, [95:51] you know, uh, peptide wild west kind of [95:53] indications. [95:54] >> It was FDA approved as Zidaxin, um, for [95:57] kids that were born without a thymus or [95:58] a malfunction thymus like Dor syndrome, [96:00] these different kind of genetic [96:02] abnormalities um, to be used for these [96:05] kids to help develop the T- cells that [96:06] they had that weren't um, in the thymus [96:08] because they'd have like bone marrow tea [96:09] cells that weren't properly developed. [96:11] So there was good support from thyopaf 1 [96:13] for these kids. I don't think that FDA [96:15] approval still exists. So the people are [96:17] trying to you know grandfather thyop one [96:19] into these this peptide conversation. Um [96:21] in other countries it's approved for a [96:24] ad aguant therapy for like hepatitis B, [96:25] hepatitis C and and in different [96:27] cancers. So far the sepsis literature [96:30] and the infectious literature is not [96:31] that promising. It might be like if you [96:33] take antibiotics with thy one you might [96:36] have a quicker bounce around. What what [96:38] I would be interested to see is like if [96:39] you you know went to nursing homes [96:40] injected everybody with thousand thyin [96:42] alpha 1 in November and December would [96:44] you have less flu in January and [96:45] February? That'd be like the interesting [96:47] thought experiment. Both thyus alpha 1 [96:49] and thymus and beta 4 come out of the [96:50] Goldstein lab. That's the very famous [96:53] lab that studied the thymus in the 70s ' [96:54] 80s and 90s. Um but thyic research kind [96:57] of fell out of favor the last few [96:58] decades but now [96:59] >> also sexy as the pineal. I say that sort [97:02] of tongue and cheek because I mean I [97:03] think these are fascinating glands and [97:05] um the reason I ask if they're neurally [97:06] innovated is that you know nowadays [97:08] there's a there are a lot of reasons why [97:10] people choose to study one thing or the [97:11] other. But these um underststudied [97:14] glands if neurally innovated then open [97:16] up a lot of interesting questions about [97:18] brain control, [snorts] behavioral [97:20] stress control and the and the [97:22] experiments kind of write themselves. [97:23] doing them still takes a lot of work. [97:25] Interpreting them is no easy task [97:26] either. But um I think there should [97:28] certainly be more work on um on the [97:30] pineal and on on the thymus. So I want [97:32] to make that clear that have you taken [97:35] thy alpha? Oh yeah, I' I've used thumbs [97:37] off one when uh when I travel to to [97:39] avoid the uh cesspool of planes and [97:43] hotels and all these places which uh [97:45] like I would say traveling and then this [97:47] year on the wards the first time I don't [97:49] get flu, cold, whatever kind of [97:51] infection I do one throughout and I [97:53] didn't get sick a single time. [97:54] >> What time of day or night are you [97:56] injecting? [97:56] >> Uh twice a week uh time agnostic. Uh [97:59] we're talking about you know 2.5 [98:01] milligrams uh as a prophylactic. that's [98:04] not FDA approved or Yeah. [98:05] >> or this is just you doing your thing. [98:07] >> I'm I'm curious and see if it would it [98:08] would work. [98:09] >> You're trying to stay healthy so you can [98:10] uh take care of patients. Exactly. So [98:12] you're willing to be your own [98:13] experiment. When we hear about thyosin [98:14] alpha, we usually hear about TB500 also. [98:17] What's TB500 and how are the are the two [98:19] related if at all? [98:20] >> So while Cavinson's finding thyolin and [98:22] he's injecting that into people, the [98:23] Goldstein lab finds thyin fraction 5 [98:25] which is this giant uh protein that has [98:28] many different peptides in it. Thy alpha [98:30] 1 being one of them and then thymusin [98:32] beta 4 being the other one. Thyself [98:33] alpha 1, thyus beta 4 were discovered in [98:35] the thymus but they're not exclusive to [98:36] the thymus gland. They're also made in [98:38] other tissues. Thysin beta 4 seems to be [98:40] uh this 43 amino acid peptide that helps [98:44] in the actin cytokeleton of cells. So if [98:46] you think about it, immune cells have to [98:47] move a lot. So they have to re [98:48] reorganize their actin cytokeleton quite [98:50] quickly. So it seems to upregulate that [98:52] movement [98:53] >> which you know the horse community for [98:55] doping uh and other athletes have found [98:57] a niche for thy beta 4 to use it as a [99:00] >> the horse community. [99:00] >> Yeah. The horse races. Thus made 4 is a [99:03] very common doping agent [99:04] >> for the riders or for the for the [99:05] horses. [99:06] >> For the horses. [99:06] >> Yes. [99:07] >> Do they test the horses for? [99:08] >> Yeah. No there's like a big doping [99:10] scandal when it comes to to horses and [99:12] uh I don't know if they test them or [99:13] they like [99:14] >> you know what's funny this is a very [99:16] relevant tangent. Occasionally someone [99:18] will say, "Hey, does all this morning [99:19] sunlight stuff, does that work on like [99:21] dogs?" And I go, "Listen, I hate to tell [99:22] you this, but like a lot of the [99:24] literature came from animals, not [99:25] necessarily dogs, and they have [99:27] melanopsin, ganglen cells, they have [99:29] super kaismatic like yes, yes, and yes, [99:31] same physiology." [99:31] >> And then recently, won't say who, wasn't [99:34] me. Um, truly, I have a friend whose uh [99:36] dog was injured. And the question [99:37] becomes like, would BPC work? And you [99:39] can actually say, well, there's a lot [99:40] more animal data than uh human data. [99:43] talked to a couple vets and vets will [99:46] they're a lot more adventurous than we [99:48] might think and I thought well listen [99:50] you know now of course these are pets [99:52] they're I love my dog you know not the [99:54] same as a human I am a bit of a species [99:56] but love them tremendously um [99:59] >> and I think the [100:00] >> pet peptide industry is going to be [100:03] enormous already [100:04] >> so here's the question and then we'll go [100:05] right back to what we were saying before [100:08] >> there's been so much interest in NAD NMN [100:10] and NR to upregulate NAD what NAD is a [100:14] prolongevity NAD for you know one of [100:16] these things that drops over uh over the [100:18] lifespan [100:19] >> although the paper last week says that [100:20] it doesn't drop in blood the landmark [100:22] paper [100:22] >> I will say which [100:23] >> is the news stories on that claim that I [100:26] called it a longevity drug I've always [100:28] said that NAD I I do augment NAD using [100:31] NMN it gives me more uh morning energy I [100:35] will say it does make my nails really [100:36] thick and my hair grow fast two effects [100:37] I was not looking for but I like the [100:39] energy effect I've never said it [100:41] increases lifespan ever. So, um, this [100:44] was mentioned in the New York Times and [100:45] elsewhere, and it's absolutely false [100:47] that my name is included in that [100:48] statement. So, their fact checkers need [100:50] factchecking. NAD has been kind of the [100:53] thing for a lot of people who want to go [100:55] beyond supplements, right? They kind [100:57] beyond creatine, beyond magnesium, [100:59] beyond what they can get, you know, just [101:00] on Amazon or whatever, but [101:02] >> they don't want to go all the way to, [101:04] you know, like blood cleansing and all [101:06] this other stuff, which I I certainly [101:08] don't do myself, and I think that's too [101:10] extreme, at least for me. [101:11] When I hear about thy alpha, TB500, BPC, [101:14] it occupies this kind of middle ground, [101:17] right? And so I think this is why a lot [101:19] of people are saying, "Hey, Alison, I [101:21] love my dog. I love my cat." I don't [101:23] know if NAD is going to do anything for [101:25] their longevity. It doesn't look like it [101:26] may or may not. I don't know. But I [101:28] think a lot of people are starting to [101:29] think, oh, you know, like, [101:31] >> and here we go, Pavlov and his dogs. So, [101:34] I do think this is another category of [101:35] interest. And of course, we're the [101:37] curators. They don't get a vote. They [101:38] can't consent. Right. [101:39] >> Right. So, we have to be very thoughtful [101:40] there, too. Yep. [101:41] >> If I ask you, let's say I had an aged [101:44] dog and I come to you and I go, "Listen, [101:46] I know you're a human physician, but [101:47] he's getting sick a lot. I don't know, [101:49] maybe getting some thyus and alpha. He's [101:51] kind of creaky joints, some BPC. He's [101:53] probably got a couple years to go and [101:55] that's it." Would you say like, [101:57] >> "Well, [101:58] >> I know you're not a vet. [101:59] >> The veterary board is going to sue me [102:00] now, but [102:00] >> No, they're not. Actually, I have [102:02] relatives who are vets. They are very [102:03] open. [102:04] >> Interesting. [102:04] >> Very open. The veterary community has [102:06] been very open. I injected my previous [102:08] dog. Yeah, [102:09] >> with testosterone later in life. And I [102:11] expected the vets to come after me with [102:12] pitchforks. And I got calls that we [102:14] would love to prescribe this. In fact, [102:15] we wish we could just do vasectomies on [102:17] male dogs. Let them keep their [102:18] testosterone and then you don't have to [102:19] worry about this breeding problem. And [102:21] you let people train them not to hump. [102:22] >> Yep. No, my my sister was at a [102:24] compending pharmacy here locally that [102:25] would give dogs their testosterone. And [102:28] it made him so much healthier and [102:30] happier. I have zero regrets. [102:32] >> I'm propeptid for pets. Let's say let's [102:34] say I think there would be beneficial [102:36] effects. We know dogs when they vomit [102:37] they end up licking some of the vomit. [102:39] You've seen this before. [102:40] >> Yes. [102:40] >> Unfort is he trying to get peptides back [102:43] from the gastric tract like the first [102:46] from a pavlovian dog [102:47] >> being kind to dogs. [102:48] >> So I'm like but I mean intuitively [102:49] instinctively there might be something [102:50] there like they might be trying to get [102:52] BPC out of that. Who knows? But um I [102:55] think there would be less hesitation for [102:59] people to use these on animals. They [103:00] come from animal literature. Like you [103:02] said we don't want to be harming these [103:03] pets, right? But a lot of I think a lot [103:07] of the the positive signals are going to [103:08] come out of people giving them to their [103:09] pets. Unfortunately, there's so many [103:10] brands now that are popping up every day [103:12] giving uh their pets peptides. [103:15] >> Um because BPC, is it going to be [103:18] treated as a supplement when it comes to [103:19] oral capsules or is it going to be [103:20] treated as a med? Like we haven't got [103:22] got that answer from the FDA. RFK [103:24] himself has kind of said like these are [103:25] supplements. They're not they're not [103:26] medications. So FDA said that he said [103:28] that we're not going to regulate them as [103:30] meds because they're not meds which I [103:31] don't know if the agency themselves is [103:33] going to be too happy with that. I mean [103:34] there's a big well McCary just McCiri I [103:37] don't ever know how to pronounce his [103:38] last name um recently left so that there [103:40] was a from what I understand a kind of a [103:42] split I don't think he left because of [103:43] peptide anything I think it was related [103:45] to other things that I'm not aware of [103:47] but I do think the question that you're [103:49] raising is one of the most important [103:51] questions [103:51] >> is BPC going to be taken seriously as a [103:54] drug [103:54] >> y [103:55] >> or is it more creatineish [103:57] >> yep I mean for example I could give you [103:59] a B12 supplement you could buy that on [104:00] Amazon or I could prescribe that to you [104:02] but if I was to give you an injectable [104:03] B12 shot, you would need a prescription [104:05] for that. [104:06] >> So, is that distinction going to apply [104:07] to peptides also is the big question [104:09] that no one's answered. And is a, you [104:11] know, pinealon is a supplement you can [104:13] find in Kazakhstan and Russia and [104:15] Ukraine wherever all these different [104:16] countries over the counter in [104:17] differenties. [104:18] >> Is pinealon available as a capsule? [104:20] >> It's available as a caps. [104:21] >> Does it work as well as a capsule in a [104:23] capsule? [104:23] >> Higher doses as needed, but it still [104:25] works. [104:25] >> What are the doses dosages excuse me [104:28] that people are injecting versus taking [104:29] orally? So when it comes to the bio [104:31] regulators the epitalon pineelion the [104:33] cavon literature looks at like microgram [104:35] dosages from 10 to 100 micrograms of um [104:38] of the actual raw peptides of the [104:41] peptide mixes we're talking about 10 [104:43] milligs. So 10 milligs of you know [104:45] desiccated cow brain that might give you [104:47] a few hundred micrograms of pineon. Oh [104:49] man, desiccated cow brain makes me think [104:51] of crutzville yakob aka mad cow pry [104:55] first patient I had on on wards in third [104:56] year of medical school [104:57] >> had degenerative brain from crutzville [104:59] >> yak there was yeah it was a bad bad case [105:02] on neurology [105:03] >> wards yeah please folks do not be [105:05] consuming brains I know there's some [105:08] people like oh he's got all this stuff [105:09] that can help you like please please [105:11] please like these these uh these pron [105:14] things are really serious [105:16] >> yeah scary [105:17] >> it's really scary it's really really [105:19] scary and not just from wild game, but [105:21] it's it's really scary. [105:22] >> By the way, I think this set back all [105:24] that research in the when when the you [105:26] know the PON stuff happened in the early [105:27] 2000s that set back a lot of these [105:29] animal derived peptide research [105:31] dramatically cuz people like oh we don't [105:32] want to touch these extracts anymore. [105:34] Makes sense [105:34] >> because there was thymus extracts. There [105:35] were like there was about you know 10 [105:37] different groups in Eastern Europe that [105:38] came up with their own thymus peptide [105:40] drug [105:41] >> which was a polyeptide fragment with you [105:43] know thyusphan thus beta 4 vylon thyogen [105:45] crystal like all these different [105:46] peptides that you'd get together. The [105:48] the Eastern Europeans went down like [105:50] this mix of just mixing up young thyuses [105:52] because you don't want an old thyus from [105:53] a cow. You want a six-month old cow that [105:55] has the giant juicy big thymus with all [105:57] the healthy hormones in there. uh they'd [105:59] grind that up and inject that into into [106:01] humans with positive effects like you [106:02] know hundreds of papers on that. The [106:04] American side, the Goldstein um group [106:07] came up with thyin fraction 5 which has [106:09] thy one and thyin beta 4 in it. Also [106:11] thyin beta 10, thyin beta 9, a bunch of [106:13] different thyosins but studied these two [106:15] dramatically thy 1 and thyin beta 4. The [106:18] French came up with the actual main [106:20] thymus hormone which is thyulin not [106:22] thyolin. Thyolin is the Russian [106:24] polyeptide mix. Thymulin is a nine amino [106:26] acid uh peptide that is the marker of [106:30] thymus function. It also has very [106:32] interesting neurological effects which I [106:33] think you'll you'll find interesting [106:35] because it modulates [snorts] the what [106:38] we're calling the thymus pituitary [106:40] adrenal axis thymus pituitary gonatal [106:42] axis. Thyulin is this peptide that's [106:45] secreted by thymus dramatically [106:46] decreases with age um as zinc dependent. [106:50] So biology likes to use metals with [106:52] different amino acid structures. [106:53] Hemoglobin with iron, GHK copper with [106:55] copper. Thyuin is zinc dependent. So [106:57] it's a nine amino acid peptide with zinc [106:59] inside inside of it to do its effects. [107:01] That will develop NK cells and T- cells [107:04] um stimulate the immune response. But [107:06] also in the animal models, not [107:07] replicated in humans yet, when they take [107:09] out the pituitary and then inject, you [107:11] know, act or ACG, the amount of thyline [107:15] sensitizes the end organ to production [107:17] of the targeted hormone. For example, if [107:20] you were just to give ACG alone to the [107:22] animal, [107:22] >> hCG, synthetic glutinizing hormone. [107:25] >> Yes. Yes. Yes. ACG is is binding to the [107:27] it's called the ACG LH receptor. So they [107:30] would get more testosterone produced [107:32] when they got ACG with thyulin [107:35] >> versus ACG alone. [107:37] >> So what you're saying is that thymus and [107:39] alpha potentially or TB500 or other [107:43] thyic hormones, [107:44] >> thy thyulin specifically. [107:46] >> Okay. Thyulin specifically. Okay. The [107:47] other ones do different effects on the [107:49] on the pituitary axis. [107:50] >> So thulin specifically can augment Yes. [107:53] >> the effects of indogenous and perhaps [107:56] also exogenous hormones. [107:57] >> Yep. [107:58] >> Interesting. [107:58] >> And it makes sense because if you're not [108:00] robust when it comes to immune status [108:03] because you you can think of your [108:04] thyulin as high in youth, low in aged, [108:07] >> you have no business investing in [108:08] reproduction. You have no business in [108:11] creating a lot of cortical steroids [108:12] because that gives you that, you know, [108:13] youthful energy in the morning. But if [108:15] you're making a lot of coral steroids, [108:16] you're shrinking your thymus. So it [108:17] creates kind of a feedback loop, [108:19] negative feedback loop to prevent you [108:20] from overrunning your system. A lot of [108:22] young guys will be like, "Oh, my immune [108:24] system sucks and my testosterone is [108:25] low." Like, is there a thymus link? [108:27] There is the question. [108:27] >> Interesting. And I I'm sure that you're [108:29] the first person in the last 20 years to [108:32] be talking about this publicly. Um, and [108:34] I really appreciate that you are because [108:35] of course you knew what the thymus was. [108:37] don't know a lot about the biology but [108:39] you've really um opened people's eyes to [108:41] and um what it is that it goes away over [108:44] time. People taking thyosin alpha TB500 [108:47] and um thymulin. [108:48] >> Yep. [108:48] >> Is this something that people would [108:50] cocktail or is taking thyulin something [108:52] that generally could be a good idea [108:54] under certain circumstances? [108:56] >> Thyulin itself has a very short [108:58] half-life. The goal would be to increase [109:00] endogenous production of the thymulin [109:02] itself. [109:02] >> How would you do that? [109:03] >> So sufficient zinc status is necessary [109:05] to make thyulin. The first sign of zinc [109:07] depletion before RBC zinc or serum zinc [109:10] decrease is your thyuline levels tank. [109:13] I'd like to take a quick break and [109:15] acknowledge one of our sponsors, [109:16] Element. Element is an electrolyte drink [109:19] that has everything you need and nothing [109:20] you don't. That means the electrolytes, [109:22] sodium, magnesium, and potassium, all in [109:24] the correct ratios, but no sugar. Proper [109:27] hydration is critical for brain and body [109:29] function. Even a slight degree of [109:31] dehydration can diminish your cognitive [109:33] and physical performance. It's also [109:35] important that you get adequate [109:36] electrolytes. The electrolytes, sodium, [109:39] magnesium, and potassium are vital for [109:41] the functioning of all cells in your [109:43] body, especially your neurons or your [109:44] nerve cells. 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So, if you'd like [110:22] to try Element, you can go to [110:23] drinkelement.com/huberman [110:26] to claim a free element sample pack with [110:28] any purchase. Again, that's [110:29] drinkelement.com/huberman [110:31] to claim a free sample pack. GHKU [110:35] copper. [110:36] >> Yeah, most of the questions I get about [110:38] it are from women. [110:39] >> Yep. [110:40] >> I sent out a little informal poll to the [110:43] uh be careful how I say this. women in [110:44] my life um [laughter] including siblings [110:46] and things like that and and almost all [110:49] the women said, "What about GHQ copper? [110:52] I hear it can be good for my skin. [110:53] Should I use it topically, take it [110:54] orally, or inject it? If I inject it, [110:56] should I inject it locally?" I'm like, [110:57] "Please don't inject it in your face cuz [110:58] I don't as much as I'm comfortable with [111:00] people giving themselves like a little, [111:02] you know, sterile injection and you [111:03] know, belly or something like I get [111:05] worried about non-experts injecting [111:07] themselves in the face and other other [111:09] tissues. So, a lot of interest in this. [111:12] >> What is it? Why has it made it into this [111:14] kind of um aesthetic category? [111:18] Because I'm guessing it has a lot of [111:19] other effects too. But it's kind of [111:20] funny how things kind of land in one [111:22] region. Like creatine was like the [111:23] muscle thing for a long time. Then it [111:24] got some kind of like maybe it's good [111:26] for cognition, maybe for people with [111:28] Alzheimer's. Maybe women should take it [111:29] too for all those reasons and more. And [111:31] it kind of reverted back to like the [111:32] muscle thing. GHKCU is a tripeptide um [111:36] with a copper uh ion in the in the [111:38] middle. It's glycine histadine and [111:40] lysine. Um it's actually found in type [111:43] one collagen fibers. So [111:45] >> it's only where type one collagen fibers [111:46] are [111:47] >> all over your skin and hair and [111:49] connective tissue. So [111:51] >> uh just like Vladimir Cavson discovers [111:53] these 40 different peptides, liver [111:55] peptides, brain peptides, pineal [111:56] peptides, whatever it may be, there's a [111:58] American researcher Lauren Pikart, Dr. [112:00] Lauren Pickard uh who's passed now he [112:02] discovers GHKCU [112:04] uh in the collagen tissue and he's like [112:06] hey this might be the the factor that [112:08] controls collagen synthesis and also [112:10] collagen breakdown. So he does a bunch [112:11] of studies his work is all about this. [112:13] So almost all the the literature comes [112:15] from this one lab a common theme in [112:17] peptides unfortunately um he discovers [112:19] it in maybe the mid70s it's um found to [112:23] be very high in youth in in serum [112:24] levels. So you'll find this in the blood [112:26] of of anyone that we test um up to like [112:28] 200 I think nanogs whatever the the unit [112:31] was and then gets down to like in the [112:32] levels of the 60s by the age of 65. So [112:35] dramatically decreases with age. It's [112:36] thought to be maybe what leads to the [112:38] youthful appearance of young skin and [112:40] with age you lose that effect. So he did [112:43] a bunch of trials both topically for [112:45] skin for hair. Um there's now injectable [112:48] work being done. So, similar to the BPC, [112:51] they would, you know, cut rats open, [112:53] inject GHK copper, uh, in a different [112:55] site, and they'd get faster wound [112:57] repair, uh, of the the skin tissue from [113:00] injecting this. So, that's, you know, [113:02] it's become synonymous with BBC157, [113:05] TB500, Wolverine stack, which is someone [113:08] online just made up. And [113:09] >> that's that's the Wolverine stack. [113:10] >> It's those two. Yes. [113:11] >> TB500 and and alpha. [113:13] >> No, the T500 and BBC157. [113:15] >> BBC157. Okay. Now people will add on GHK [113:17] copper and call it the glow stack. [113:19] >> The glow stack. [113:20] >> Oh, interesting. Okay. [113:22] >> Someone has made it up in a research [113:23] chemical. [113:24] >> Like a glow Wolverine. Yeah. [113:25] >> Yeah. There's there's a big debate about [113:27] whether or not if mixing those together [113:28] causes, you know, denaturing of [113:29] different peptides. That's beyond this [113:32] discussion. Point is GHA copper. It both [113:34] upregulates the synthesis side of [113:36] collagen and the breakdown side of [113:37] collagen. So, because when you're you're [113:39] remodeling tissue, if you're just [113:40] rebuilding it, you're you're going to [113:42] get like very pathogenic uh structures. [113:44] And if you're just breaking down, you're [113:45] getting bad structures. So you're doing [113:46] both. So the idea is does it number one [113:49] have a skin effect, which it seems to [113:50] be. The pickards, you know, compared it [113:52] to to retinol and vitamin C creams and [113:55] all these things with positive effects [113:56] and people anecdotally talk about like, [113:58] you know, their crows feet going away [113:59] and topically it does good for them. [114:01] There was a study on hair that didn't [114:02] seem too promising. So it's not going to [114:04] the peptide sites try to tell you like [114:06] this is better than minoxidil. Not [114:08] really. Maybe it could be an adjunct and [114:10] a lot of patients will will have that [114:12] success using that with some of their [114:13] other topical um hair hair loss agents [114:16] and now there's a Chinese group studying [114:18] it for um lung regeneration because [114:20] there's a lot of connective tissue in [114:21] the lungs uh between the different [114:23] alvoli and there's some you know hype [114:26] there of using um GH copper as a [114:28] regenerative from that side. How many [114:30] people are trying to regenerate their [114:31] lungs is for like COPD [114:32] >> COPD and and smokers it's a big big [114:35] issue. [114:35] >> Maybe long lung CO from what I hear is a [114:37] real thing. Lung damage from COVID. Y I [114:40] know some people debate it but it seems [114:41] like there are enough people walking [114:42] around [114:43] >> who were vaccinated and nonvaccinated [114:44] who claim that they have [114:46] >> symptoms postcoid that have last a long [114:49] time aka long co. So that might be an [114:51] interesting place for them to remain [114:53] peptide curious. [114:54] >> Yeah. And enthyic [clears throat] [114:55] atrophy is a big part of the I suspect [114:58] >> postco. Yeah, because any infection [115:00] actually leads to we talk about the [115:01] thymic involution that happens with age. [115:03] There's thymic atrophy that happens [115:04] after every infection the thymus kind of [115:06] shrinks down and then the idea is that [115:08] you you know recover you convoles we [115:11] just have convolescent homes for for [115:12] sick patients and then you regenerate [115:13] your thymus in the state of health. I [115:15] think the problem in modern day people [115:16] are stressed out they're at work they [115:18] get sick and they get keep getting sick. [115:20] So they never get this this chance for [115:21] that thymus rejuvenation. So then [115:23] they're constantly getting hit down and [115:24] they're ending up with these diseases of [115:26] aging that could have maybe been [115:27] augmented, amilarated, maybe pushed down [115:29] had their thymus function been better in [115:31] youth. Raise my hand, Professor Bachery. [115:34] Um, I'm only half. I really feel like [115:36] I'm in school. This is so cool for me. I [115:37] I'm truly in heaven right now. If you [115:39] look back at the literature on [115:41] convolesing, how long were people uh [115:44] recommended to take some time off after [115:46] a cold or a flu or some other That's a [115:48] good question. because I think this [115:50] would tell us like are we just like with [115:52] um sort of uh how long um maternity [115:55] leave type things like you know the idea [115:57] now is people are being forced to go [115:58] back too quickly in countries like in [116:00] Scandinavia perhaps where they get more [116:01] time positive outcomes for baby and mom [116:04] like I think it's an interesting and [116:05] important question because our biology [116:07] hasn't changed that much no in the last [116:10] you know couple thousand years at least [116:12] like after one has a cold typically [116:14] people go back as soon as they deem [116:16] themselves non-infectious which really [116:18] worries [116:18] Um, but do you think people are getting [116:20] back to work too quickly? I mean, I [116:22] understand the reasons why, but do you [116:24] think that adding a stage of of really [116:27] getting back to full functioning without [116:29] getting into the, you know, back to the [116:31] gym, back to work, back to everything is [116:33] could be beneficial for these longevity [116:35] effects, [116:35] >> right? Right. Well, I mean, if you think [116:37] about it, nothing that they do once they [116:40] come back is is, you know, additive to [116:42] healing. Their their circadian rhythms [116:44] are are thrown off. They're under [116:45] malilluminative lights all day. Okay, [116:47] they're not getting sunlight. They're [116:48] not their vitamin D levels are [116:49] atrocious. Their blue light exposure at [116:51] night is is high. Their stress levels [116:52] are very high. Their guts are inflamed [116:54] from from eating processed [116:56] hyperprocessed hyper palatable foods. [116:58] They have obesity or they're [116:59] pre-diabetic. So all these things now [117:01] lead to this inflammatory state and they [117:03] just got sick and their thymus didn't [117:04] bounce back. So then they get sick the [117:06] next time in two or three weeks. Like [117:08] post pandemic a lot of my colleagues [117:10] were like dude I get sick three four [117:11] times a winter now before I'd get sick [117:13] you know once a winter. So this is where [117:15] the interest in thyic peptides is very [117:18] elusive. We have to figure out if the [117:19] STPs or the PTE are the the the more [117:22] interesting ones. There's synthetic [117:23] thyic peptides thyself one thus beta 4in [117:26] and there's purified thyic extracts. [117:28] There's the the two different research [117:30] committees that exist when it comes to [117:31] the thymus. Which one will be more [117:33] advantageous? Vladimir cabin came up [117:35] with the thyimolin inject injectable and [117:37] oral versions of that. and he had [117:39] positive uh immune markers and he showed [117:41] like CD4 cells come up and CD8 cells [117:43] improve and all all his um immune [117:46] markers become a more youthful state [117:48] let's say [117:49] >> but unfortunately what's happening here [117:51] is we don't have thymologists like we [117:53] don't have a branch of medicine that's [117:55] dedicated to this aspect of immunity [117:57] like there's you know allergy allergy [117:59] and immun immunologists [118:02] but they focus more on you know [118:04] allergies to different agents or very [118:07] severe immune diseases is they're not [118:09] really addressing the immunity of the [118:11] general public and how you can boost [118:13] that. And I think post pandemic a lot of [118:14] people started to ask hey how can I have [118:16] better immunity for myself. Uh and now [118:19] finally people are starting to talk [118:20] about the thymus. Unfortunately it's [118:21] been too little too late. That would [118:22] have been great during the pandemic. uh [118:24] because we could have used these thyic [118:29] you know focused interventions whether [118:30] it be zinc or you know uh thyic peptides [118:34] or your purified thymic extracts to [118:36] augment immunity of the population as a [118:38] whole especially because Dr. [118:40] was doing this in the 70s in Russia. [118:42] Even in Russia, they don't really look [118:44] kindly to this research. Um, the Soviet [118:46] era research has been kind of pushed [118:47] aside and it's like more big farmer [118:49] style because it's more profitable [118:50] because how many thymuses are you going [118:51] to inject into people and how many [118:53] thymuses exist on the planet to make [118:55] these different peptides from [118:56] >> but you could inject a lot of synthetic [118:58] thymus and alpha TB500. Yes. [119:00] >> Um, and maybe BPC so Wolverine stack [119:04] plus you know. [119:05] >> Yeah. So it'd be very interesting if if [119:06] we can get that cuz now that everyone's [119:07] getting like these puno scans and [119:09] different full body MRIs, we can see the [119:11] thymus size. [119:12] >> I was going to ask you can can I get [119:13] some sense of my thymic size and output [119:16] from a blood draw or do I have to do [119:17] whole body imaging? I've done whole body [119:18] imaging. It is somewhat costly and [119:20] that's that's a prohibitive barrier for [119:22] for people. But if people can afford it, [119:24] I actually think it can be useful. I [119:26] have a number of friends including a [119:27] neurosurgeon friend who said that he's [119:29] um some people are still alive now [119:31] because they got that scan. A lot of [119:33] people get scared about what they see. [119:35] Wouldn't you rather be scared about what [119:36] you see and be told that it's okay than [119:39] not know it's there and then have a [119:41] catastrophic event? [119:42] >> We always have a patient that comes in, [119:44] you know, car accident, young 45year-old [119:46] car accident, comes in, has a pancreatic [119:48] mass that they would have never known [119:50] about had they not had that accident. [119:51] They get a CT scan just to check for any [119:53] kind of internal bleeding. They find the [119:54] pancreatic mass that gets removed. It [119:56] ends up being a malignant mass that had [119:57] they waited six months, they would have, [119:59] you know, had stage four pancreatic [120:00] cancer and passed away. So that's that's [120:02] a theory. There is a concern about false [120:03] positives and false negatives when it [120:05] comes to these screening modalities. [120:06] Like any screening modality is not [120:08] perfect. So there's a big debate on [120:09] whether or not to do do these that will [120:11] leave to people and their physicians. [120:12] But I'm I've been trying to lobby them [120:14] to give the thymic score to everybody [120:16] who gets one of these scans because they [120:18] could see like, hey, can can you see [120:19] where the thymus is at [120:20] >> because, you know, someone might come [120:21] in, you know, for five different scans [120:23] over 5 years, they did a TRT protocol or [120:26] a GH protocol or whatever it may be. And [120:27] we could see did that improve uh thymics [120:30] status or or make it worse or different [120:32] infections, different interventions. [120:34] That'd be very interesting to to kind of [120:35] tease out on blood tests. We we've been [120:37] trying to work with a couple different [120:38] labs to figure out a thymic score. M the [120:40] most commercially available is going to [120:42] be a a lymphosy count which look at CD4 [120:44] to CD8. There's an ideal CD4 to CD8 [120:47] ratio that's more youthful. You don't [120:48] want to have more CD8 cells than CD4 [120:51] cells. You don't want to have too few of [120:52] either of them. That goes more into like [120:54] the HIV literature. But the the most [120:57] simple thing that almost every single [120:58] person has gotten done but no one's [121:00] looked at is their lymphosy to monocy [121:02] ratio on their CBC. So almost [121:04] everybody's gone to CBC with diff. It's [121:05] a $3 lab test. If [snorts] you type in [121:08] any disorder, cardiovascular disease, [121:10] cancer, uh diabetes and put lymphosytes [121:13] to monocyt ratio, there's a study that [121:14] will talk about how like low lymphosy to [121:17] monocy ratio is associated with poor [121:19] outcomes when it comes to that disease [121:21] state. So it gives you kind of a general [121:24] gestalt of what's going on with immunity [121:25] because you want a high absolute [121:27] lymphosy count not too high because it's [121:28] associated with like lymphas but [121:30] somewhere the hazard when you look at [121:32] the charts around 1,000 total [121:35] lymphosytes is um where the hazard of [121:38] different cancer sites starts to [121:40] increase a young healthy person will be [121:42] between you know 1500 and 33,000 total [121:45] lymphosytes and you want the ratio to [121:47] the monocytes. Monocytes are different [121:48] types of uh immune cells that are more [121:50] inflammatory. So if you have a robust [121:52] amount of lymphosytes with low amount of [121:53] monocytes that suggests you have a more [121:55] let's say ready and robust immune state. [121:58] >> So $3 lab test that everybody gets [122:00] almost every lab testing company now [122:01] checks it and no one really do reports [122:03] on it. But you can kind of u stratify [122:05] people into disease risk based on that [122:07] score. [122:08] >> Out of a hundred randomly pulled um [122:11] physicians who receive their license in [122:14] the United States, how many of them [122:15] probably know what you just described? [122:17] >> Uh zero. [122:18] >> Why not? It it's like rabbit holes that [122:20] you kind of go down and find out. Like I [122:22] I've been lobbing everyone in the [122:23] hospital to look at this. [122:24] >> But it's very easy, right? The data are [122:25] there. [122:25] >> No, I look [122:26] >> It's not like you're saying, "Oh, you [122:27] got to do all this additional work. You [122:28] got to build insurance. I mean, it's [122:30] there." [122:30] >> Like I I I started to care about the [122:32] thymus uh post pandemic because I [122:33] noticed people's lymph counts were [122:35] lower. [122:35] >> And I I could notice that, you know, [122:37] anecdotally or looking at, you know, [122:39] small data sets like, "Hey, people had [122:40] lower lymphosy counts had worse disease [122:42] or like earlier like people that had [122:44] cancers in their late 30s, early 40s." [122:46] I'm like, "Huh, they all had like lower [122:47] lymphosy counts." So I started to like [122:49] dig into the literature and I'm lobbying [122:51] a lot of the hematologists and [122:52] infectious disease doctors in my [122:53] hospital to start to look at this. [122:54] Unfortunately they they kind of are [122:56] textbook. It's not part of the [122:57] guidelines. It's it's in a space that's [123:00] not p pathology. So it's not clear like [123:03] hey if I check your lymph site to [123:04] monocite count right now is it going to [123:05] change my management of you in the [123:06] hospital today? Not really. It's more of [123:08] a long-term look. So that's where all [123:10] these direct to health uh direct to [123:11] consumer um companies have an [123:13] opportunity to kind of modulate the way [123:15] medicine is practiced in the United [123:16] States. But if if we have this metric [123:19] that we can study, why not use it and [123:21] then like try different interventions [123:22] and see what actually helps people like [123:25] we've gotten sometimes peptides. We've [123:26] had people go from like a 4:1 lymph to [123:28] monocy ratio to an 8 to1 ratio. Now is [123:31] that significant? That seems to be [123:33] significant. Um but no one's really kind [123:35] of discussing it unfortunately. [123:36] >> I know who I'm putting my vote in for [123:38] surgeon general and [laughter] uh if [123:39] ever there's a turnover. I don't haven't [123:42] explored the most recent person. So [123:43] that's not a comment on her. It's um I [123:45] know they elected to not uh vote Casey [123:48] in. Um but uh so that's not truly not a [123:50] mention. I haven't done but I I think uh [123:53] your voice should be heard uh far and [123:56] wide on these things that I mean like [123:57] more data is good. The scientist in me [123:58] just says you got the data. Data could [124:00] be informative. Take a look. [124:02] >> There's a category of peptides such as [124:04] growth hormone secret testin MK677 that [124:07] we could we could do the deep dive on [124:09] all those but I'll just batch those and [124:11] and maybe we parse them a little bit. [124:13] and things like melanotans. Um these are [124:16] >> to my understanding FDA approved for [124:19] certain indications. So they've gone [124:20] through the randomized control trials [124:22] for like uh growth hormone secret dogs [124:25] for uh small stature in kids. They might [124:27] use it for that or for um postsurgical [124:31] uh burn uh recovery. I think some HIV [124:35] HIV HIV. So the idea here, the sort of [124:38] framework that I'm I'm teeing up is that [124:41] that these molecules are have been [124:44] explored. [124:45] >> Yep. [124:46] >> For their known biological function in [124:48] animals. It's established these [124:50] molecules lead to an increase in growth [124:52] hormone above what would normally be [124:54] secreted. They do it indirectly by so [124:56] they're sort of the gas pedal on that [124:57] system. Growth hormone secret cause more [125:00] growth hormone to be secreted, not [125:01] actual growth hormone. They vary in [125:03] terms of how much they stimulate hunger [125:04] or don't stimulate hunger. Yep. [125:06] >> And on on you should take them if you're [125:08] going to take them before sleep, but not [125:11] having eaten in the last two or three [125:12] hours. All all that stuff. We can save [125:14] ourselves some time here. [125:15] >> Y [125:16] >> most people who are taking these things, [125:17] whether they get it from pharma or [125:20] compounding pharmacy or gray market, [125:22] research purposes only, um [125:25] >> or black market, god forbid, they're [125:27] doing this because they want to lose [125:29] fat, gain muscle, recover from exercise [125:31] more quickly, and look more youthful. [125:33] >> Yep. Can we assume that those effects [125:35] are real given that they were FDA [125:37] approved for other things? [125:39] >> Yeah. So when it comes to let's parse [125:41] out the effects and and the different [125:42] types of of compounds that exist in this [125:44] category. So there's the grein side the [125:46] grelin agonist like MK67 not FDA [125:48] approved orally available pill that you [125:50] makes you bleed out uh growth hormone [125:52] like you make so much growth hormone in [125:53] response to that and in non-pulsatile [125:54] fashion. Growth hormone is a very [125:56] circadian hormone that gets released in [125:58] the first you know 90 minutes of a [125:59] slowwave sleep. Um, and if you miss that [126:02] big pulse, you're going to get small [126:03] pulses throughout the day. The question [126:05] is, is that big pulse better than small [126:06] little, you know, u mini pulses [126:09] throughout the day. The secrets will uh [126:12] address the the broader category of [126:14] something called somatopause. So, you've [126:16] heard of menopause, you've heard of [126:17] maybe andropause. Somatopause is this [126:20] event that happens somewhere in the 30s [126:22] where growth hormone production [126:23] dramatically decreases. So if we kind of [126:25] paint a picture, your pineal glands [126:26] aging before puberty, your thymus right [126:29] after puberty, you know, in your 20s, [126:31] and in your 30s, you're having [126:32] somatopause. That's where your growth [126:34] hormone production is decreasing. You're [126:35] having they call it adrenopause where [126:37] your adrenals stop making as much DHEA [126:39] and the different ratio of cortisol. And [126:41] then you're having menopause, andropause [126:42] and all the other chronic conditions. So [126:44] it's like your first 50 years of your [126:45] life, that's what you have to expect. [126:47] The question has been, and it's a big [126:48] debate in the medical community, is [126:51] replacing growth hormone and addressing [126:54] somatopause useful because you can [126:55] measure if we had your IGF-1 when you're [126:57] 18 and your IGF-1 when you're 30 and 50, [126:59] it's going to be a dramatic decrease in [127:00] that. Should we now replenish this [127:03] IGF-1? The proponents will say IGF-1 is [127:05] important for skin and and good quality [127:07] sleep and for muscle recovery and joints [127:10] and all these things and those are true. [127:12] We know growth hormone has all these [127:13] beneficial effects on that. We also know [127:15] growth hormone is thymore regenerative [127:17] because it stimulates the regrowth of an [127:20] aged involuted thymus gland. Based on [127:22] Dr. Fee's work, the question is, is [127:24] there an ankcogenic signal when it comes [127:26] to growth hormone? [127:27] >> Does it cause cancer? [127:28] >> Yes. [127:28] >> Can it sorry, can it promote more rapid [127:31] growth of other of existing cancer? I [127:35] don't think anyone thinks it causes [127:36] canc. And this is the big debate when [127:37] people are like BBC causes cancer. [127:39] There's no muten effect from BP is BPC [127:42] like smoking a cigarette. Smoking a [127:44] cigarette. you get carcinogenic damage [127:45] to the lung tissue that causes a cancer [127:47] later on. There's no direct mechanism [127:49] that would link any of these peptides to [127:50] a carcinogen carcinogenic effect. But is [127:53] it you know a growth factor that could [127:56] grow a cancer potentially? There isn't [127:58] good data showing that the the debate [128:00] may be like hey by boosting thymic [128:02] function from growth hormone are you [128:03] increasing immunity and then immune [128:04] surveillance of different tumors right [128:06] and therefore decreasing and then [128:08] causing the scale. There's a big debate [128:09] of of whether growth hormone is even [128:11] beneficial when it comes to aging [128:12] because growth hormone does grow certain [128:14] tissues. There's models where people are [128:16] growth hormone deficient and they live a [128:17] lot longer [128:18] >> and growth hormone is not positive when [128:20] it comes to a cardio metabolic [128:21] perspective. [128:22] >> And in species like dogs where there's [128:23] tremendous variation in the amount of [128:25] IGF-1 that's made between say a [128:27] chihuahua and a great dane. The breed [128:30] that makes more IGF-1 downstream of [128:32] growth hormone of course lives a lot [128:34] shorter lives than smaller versions of [128:36] the same species. So, you want a dog [128:38] around for a long time, get a Chihuahua. [128:40] You want a real dog, get a excuse me, [128:41] you want a dog that lives a long time, [128:43] get a great Dana or a bulldog. There's [128:44] that whole discussion of what's better. [128:46] And then you get into antagonistic [128:48] pleotropy. Is this something that's good [128:49] in youth but detrimental for longevity [128:51] or is it prolongevity? And that's big [128:53] the big debate in the longevity field, [128:55] whatever that, you know, field is of [128:57] whether or not to use growth hormone. [128:58] So, now growth hormone has become very [129:00] difficult to acquire through clinical [129:01] prescriptions after the whole anabolic [129:03] steroids act and buried bonds and all [129:05] all that stuff. So people have now [129:06] shifted to using secrets in lie of [129:08] growth hormone. [129:09] >> Also growth hormone is very expensive. [129:11] >> Very expensive. Yeah. Like Fizer's pens [129:13] are are in the thousands of dollars. So [129:15] like if you want if you're rich you can [129:16] afford to you know have a growth hormone [129:18] have it but otherwise a security go cost [129:20] you know less than 100 bucks. [129:21] >> I'm told that growth hormone uh doesn't [129:24] shut down one's own production. [129:25] >> Yeah. It's not it's not a a uh strong [129:28] shutdown like the uh testicular axis. [129:32] I'm also told that when people take it, [129:34] they feel awesome, [129:36] >> which is scary to say on a podcast [129:37] because you're like, "Oh, no. I don't [129:38] want everyone running out." And, you [129:39] know, young people are already making [129:41] tons of it. But, I mean, [129:42] >> that combination of looking younger, [129:44] feeling great, cognitively feeling [129:46] great. I mean, I have some friends [129:47] who've taken like an IU a night or even [129:50] two IUs a night, you know, five nights a [129:51] week for for years. And [129:54] >> you go, "Hey, like, are you worried [129:55] about some of the tumor effects?" And [129:56] they're like, you just function at a [129:59] whole other level. and then you go, "Oh [130:01] god, that's really enticing." But, you [130:03] know, even with great imaging, you don't [130:05] know if you've got tumors that you're [130:06] accelerating in that case. So, it's kind [130:08] of scary. [130:08] >> Yeah. And and we don't have a data set [130:09] that would show that. Like, where's the [130:11] body count from from growth hormone? Uh [130:13] like the bodybuilder body counts are [130:14] from other compounds, not doing [130:16] everything. [130:17] >> Yeah. Exactly. I mean, when you go into [130:18] a gym, you can tell who's who's doing [130:20] growth hormone versus not based on their [130:21] skin shining. like you see a 45-year-old [130:23] dude that's through sematopause but has [130:25] perfect young skin and [130:26] >> you know there's Botox and all other [130:27] things involved but you can tell there's [130:28] that growth hormone look the hair looks [130:30] a little bit healthier [130:31] >> because growth hormone favors the [130:32] conversion of T4 to T3 so it changes the [130:34] thyroid dynamics it can have [130:36] protesticular effects as well from the [130:38] IGF-1 perspective so there's a lot of [130:41] you know youthful effects to it the [130:43] question is is that been a good idea to [130:45] replace it traditionally like the [130:47] medical field's kind of anti um using [130:49] these secrets to augment sematopause but [130:53] I think there's going to be a role for [130:54] it perhaps cyclally because I don't [130:56] think anything in nature is is year [130:57] round so what if you did a cyclical [130:59] cycle of and this is not medical advice [131:01] but theoretical cyclical cycle of [131:03] tesmoral for uh a certain amount of time [131:06] got your IGF-1 to a certain level under [131:07] clinician guidance measured your your [131:10] thymus on an MRI before and after and [131:11] then you saw that the thymus grew and [131:12] you had you know higher CD4CA count that [131:15] would be pretty interesting [131:16] >> be interesting a few years back and I've [131:18] told this story publicly before I tried [131:20] um smearin Yeah, [clears throat] [131:21] >> it's different than obviously than [131:22] testom but similar in the sense the end [131:25] point is you're seeking is more uh [131:27] growth hormone IGF-1 and it dramatically [131:30] increased my deep sleep and like nuked [131:33] my REM sleep. It's like the opposite of [131:35] pinealon together. [131:36] >> Yeah. So well didn't try that. The other [131:38] thing that it did and the reason I [131:40] halted it almost right away because I [131:41] was really just running it as an [131:42] experiment on myself was that it spiked [131:46] my PSA, my prostate specific antigen. It [131:49] had always been in range and and [131:51] relatively low. Boom. Spiked it and I [131:53] was like, "Wo, that's wild." And I don't [131:55] want that. Off it. [131:57] >> Yeah. [131:57] >> It reverted to a low level. So that was [132:00] pretty striking. So obviously, you know, [132:02] hyper respponsive prostate to smearin. [132:05] Maybe it wouldn't have been to testo, [132:07] etc. But but those are the kinds of [132:08] things the growth hormone itself that [132:11] growth hormone secretion. That's a good [132:12] point. As you age, your prostate gets [132:13] bigger. The bane of every man is going [132:14] to be BPH. like that's going to be the [132:16] reason that you hate your life when [132:17] you're in your 60s and 70s because you [132:19] have to wake up at night to to to pee [132:21] >> and then when you're at, you know, an [132:22] amusement park, you're going to have to [132:23] find the nearest bathroom very [132:24] frequently because your bladder size is [132:26] >> it'll go it out. There's there's some [132:27] prostate peptides we're looking at. So, [132:30] >> there's a young guy old guy like [132:31] taunting like, you know, you got 10 more [132:33] years before you're miserable. Thanks. [132:34] >> There's prostate peptides that uh [132:35] Cington looked at that we're trying to [132:37] translate some of that literature. [132:38] >> You'll save me. [132:39] >> No, there's there's people uh this guy [132:40] named Brennan Henry who's translated [132:42] like thousands of these papers from [132:44] Russian to English. So shout out to [132:45] Amnoiliation, but he's translated a lot [132:46] of this Russian literature and helped us [132:48] from that. So that's great. But the [132:50] prostate is growing with age under the [132:52] control of DHT and estrogen and then [132:54] probably growth hormone. So the question [132:55] is, do you want to be messing with that [132:56] and increasing the size of that? There's [132:58] there's concerns about, you know, [132:59] cardiac growth, liver growth. So there's [133:01] all these things, but also growth [133:03] hormone and and the secrets have a [133:06] negative effect on on insulin [133:07] sensitivity, [133:08] >> right? [133:08] >> So people's A1C's will usually jump. [133:11] Like the the joke in the bodybuilding [133:12] community is you have to get lean enough [133:13] and healthy enough to be able to take [133:14] growth hormone. [133:15] >> Oh, what's happening? [133:16] >> Growth hormone or the secretogs. [133:17] >> The growth hormone more so the [133:19] >> it can make you insulin insensitive. [133:21] >> Yes. Uh especially with more like [133:22] tesmlin especially when combined with [133:24] epomorlin. Ceremorine is kind of a [133:25] weaker um GHR. Tesmorine especially when [133:28] combined with eporin. Tesmor is FDA [133:30] approved. Eporin is not. The the GHR [133:33] versus GHRP kind of in the weeds there. [133:34] Those two together can create a giant [133:37] growth hormone response where your IGF-1 [133:38] is in the 380s, 390s. Um, so that's [133:41] that's that's quite high like puberty [133:43] levels of IGF-1 [133:44] >> and you're hungry all the time. [133:45] >> Yeah. Yeah. With MK for sure with with [133:48] tessimorin. So tesmorland has more [133:50] fidelity uh less grein effects [133:52] especially um because you can have grein [133:55] effects, prolactin effects and cortisol [133:57] effects from whenever you're mucking [133:58] around with the pituitary because [133:59] they're all in that in that same area. [134:01] Um, I think MK bleeds out the worst when [134:04] it comes to having the other effects. MK [134:06] is not a peptide. It's a a non-eptide [134:09] GHRP. [134:10] >> What's happened now is people are now [134:12] stacking their GLP-1 as their insulin [134:15] sensitivity tool, their growth hormone [134:18] or their GHR [134:19] >> and their androen modulation therapies [134:22] as this trinity stack. [134:23] >> Trinity stack [134:24] >> to get very fit, very healthy quickly. [134:27] So a lot of these transformations you [134:28] see in CEOs and celebrities and stuff is [134:30] using a combination of those three [134:32] things. You know your TRT plus maybe [134:34] anavar with tzeptide or retrruide [134:37] whatever it may be and then using a [134:39] growth hormone modulation with your if [134:41] you can afford growth hormone or that's [134:42] more epor and you're seeing people lose [134:44] a lot of fat gain a lot of muscle in [134:47] short amounts of time. Is that healthy? [134:48] We'll find out. But that is like the [134:51] celebrity protocol. [134:52] >> Very interesting. And I'm guessing that [134:54] for women the it's the combination of [134:57] growth hormone secret plus um something [135:00] like and we'll talk about these now uh [135:02] reatride or um one of the other GLPs. [135:05] I'm [clears throat] going to acknowledge [135:06] because people are going to start like [135:07] dart throwing darts at me about this. [135:09] Yes, reatride is hitting things other [135:11] than the GLP pathway. It's also GIP and [135:13] glucagon pathway but most people put it [135:15] under the category of GLP. So you are an [135:18] encyclopedic my friend. I I really [135:20] really appreciate the clarity and the [135:22] thoughtfulness of your answers on these. [135:24] And as people are probably becoming [135:26] aware, we could spend 50 hours [135:28] [laughter] talking about salank about [135:30] cerebral ly. I think we we will have to [135:31] have you back to explore those other [135:33] ones. There are a few other things I'd [135:34] like to talk about if you're willing to [135:35] give us the time. We should close the [135:37] hatch on [135:38] >> GHKCU. I misspoke and I saw it in your [135:42] eyes. You're like, he said it wrong. Do [135:43] I correct him? Yes, correct me. Everyone [135:45] else does. Um GHKCU for the collagen [135:48] effects. It's available in a lot of [135:50] creams, assuming it's real, assuming [135:51] people are doing this medically [135:53] supervised. Um, is there any benefit to [135:55] putting it directly on crow's feet or [135:58] other wrinkles or face versus injecting [135:59] it for it to go systemically? [136:01] >> Yeah, I think if you have a well- [136:02] formulated topical that's actually not [136:04] broken down because a lot of these, you [136:06] know, from these research chemites, they [136:07] sell topicals now because everyone's in [136:08] skincare. Uh, they're, you know, poor [136:10] quality. They're not even blue. Like the [136:12] GHK should be blue, but that that is [136:14] blue [136:14] >> from the copper. Yeah. [136:15] >> Okay, that makes sense. My copper pills [136:17] are blue. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. [136:18] Okay. [136:19] >> But that doesn't mean that it's real. [136:20] Could be copper that's fallen out of the [136:22] G the complex of the GHK. So yeah, you [136:24] want a well formulated like a good [136:25] skinare brand that knows how to [136:26] formulate these uh and deliver them into [136:28] the skin cuz that's that's another [136:29] thing. So like you know every skincare [136:31] brand has their now GHK formulation cuz [136:33] people are demanding it but it's been [136:34] around for 30 40 years on topical. The [136:37] injectable is not FDA approved of [136:39] course. I think it's going to be on the [136:40] second round of discussions when it [136:41] comes to the peptides coming back to [136:43] category one. The first round is going [136:44] to have these seven peptides BPC, TB, [136:46] etc. I think the second round is going [136:48] to look at GHK. I don't imagine that [136:49] that makes that there's no good human [136:51] data on that. But topically, there's [136:53] great human data on like different [136:55] aesthetic outcomes, especially when [136:56] coupled with red light therapy um [136:58] because it seems that the the blue [137:00] pigment and and the red light seem to be [137:02] synergistic in that effect. There's also [137:04] some some uh literature when it comes to [137:06] GHKU um for post um UV damage. So people [137:10] that are, you know, sun friendly um can [137:13] use GHKCU topically to alleviate some of [137:16] the the photo damage. Of course, [137:17] dermatologists are going to get mad at [137:18] us and say like you you just use [137:20] sunscreen and don't get the damage in [137:21] the first place. But for people that you [137:23] know aren't as responsible, you can use [137:24] GHKCU as a you know, post sunscreen. [137:26] Listen to the derms who are slightly [137:29] more sun positive like especially low [137:31] low UV index sun when the sun is low in [137:34] the sky. [137:35] >> Yep. [137:35] >> Uh Dr. Abud Bakri is is perhaps the only [137:38] other person on the planet besides um my [137:41] friend Samra Hatar who's been on this [137:43] podcast who's as excited about circadian [137:45] biology as an organizing feature uh as I [137:48] am. There are a couple others out there [137:49] but in terms of people who are like [137:50] really grounded in what's real that he's [137:52] um he I put him in that category whether [137:54] he likes it or not. So people are taking [137:57] GHKCU [137:58] cream putting it on and then doing red [138:00] light therapy and there are human data [138:01] that that perhaps can augment some of [138:03] the collagen repairative effects. the [138:06] photoagging effects, some of the the [138:07] effects of aging when compared to like [138:09] different retinols and stuff like that. [138:11] I think the the consensus in the field [138:13] now is to use it with the rest of your [138:14] skincare routine, not in place of it. [138:16] >> Um, but a lot of people, especially bros [138:19] that have never been into skincare, are [138:20] now into skincare because of [138:21] >> Oh my goodness. [138:22] >> Yeah. So, there's that, but it's [138:24] promising. [138:24] >> Bros are into skinincare. [138:27] >> Be a documentary before long like what [138:28] do you call that? The manosphere. It's [138:30] like the skinosphere. [138:31] >> Well, with with looks maxing, that's [138:32] it's it's the looks maxing peptide now. [138:34] GHK because all these guys that are into [138:37] looks maxing will use GHK. [138:38] >> They're dipping their hammer in GHK CU [138:41] and and tapping themselves. And by the [138:43] way, if you want great longwavelength [138:45] red near infrared and infrared light to [138:48] augment your GHK CU uh peptide, by the [138:51] way, I'm not suggesting that. There's [138:52] this thing called sunlight that provides [138:54] that. You just have to be careful not to [138:56] get too much UV in the process. So [138:57] before before uh people start thinking [138:59] they absolutely need a red light device. [139:01] >> Full spectrum, too. full spectrum, [139:03] balanced, great article in Nature we can [139:05] link to recently that describes the [139:06] different uh spectrums coming out of [139:08] different devices and that thing that we [139:09] call the sun which is the best source of [139:10] all of that [139:11] >> and better blue light too [139:12] >> and better [139:13] >> because we're deprived of 480 nmters in [139:16] this setup that you have full spectrum [139:17] lighting that that we don't know about. [139:19] >> I don't get paid to say what I'm about [139:20] to say but I'm really excited about [139:22] something. For a long time, I've used [139:23] Bon Chargar's bulbs cuz they have these [139:26] bulbs that switch from full spectrum in [139:28] the day. Then you, you know, flip the [139:29] same switch and it goes to yellow and [139:31] then flip flip the switch again and it [139:32] goes to red. I find the red to be kind [139:34] of difficult to navigate at night. Raw [139:36] optics. [139:37] >> Yep. Then you want [139:38] >> made one that goes from like a morning [139:41] really bright light full spectrum with a [139:43] with some a lot of blue in there on [139:44] purpose to wake you, you know, part of [139:46] the way [139:46] >> and the right blue. The 480 cyan blue [139:49] >> switch the same switch. Don't have to [139:50] change the bulb. goes to kind of a late [139:52] morning mode to afternoon mode and then [139:54] goes to candle light mode in the [139:56] evening. And here's the cool thing. Not [139:57] only did they get the spectrum and the [139:59] balance right, but it doesn't flicker. [140:02] They got rid of the flicker that you get [140:03] from LEDs and yet it's an LED, so it's [140:06] >> energy efficient. Yep. Infrared and [140:08] >> Yeah. And I have no affiliation to them [140:10] whatsoever. I pay full price for these [140:11] things. And I have to say, I really, [140:13] really like them. Even my bulldog puppy [140:15] has a little one. I have this [laughter] [140:16] little monkey holding a lamp and I say, [140:17] "When the monkey goes to candle light, [140:19] you're going to sleep." and he knows [140:20] he's learning when it goes to Cantalite. [140:22] Now he's sorry he's a dromat not a tri [140:24] chromat but that's a different podcast. [140:25] All right GLPS yep now we can [140:29] comfortably exhale into your colleagues [140:32] can you can feel completely comfortable [140:34] about anything that uh that they might [140:37] think or say because the GLPs are the [140:40] reason why people are comfortable [140:42] injecting themselves. It's why this [140:43] whole thing of peptides has really taken [140:45] off. BPC kind of rode in on the GLPs in [140:48] my opinion even though it's been around [140:50] for a long time and so have all the [140:51] other peptides we've been talking about. [140:53] >> So what are your thoughts? I've never [140:55] taken one of these. Um first things [140:58] first, we're hearing that some people I [141:02] think Sam Alman actually talked about [141:03] this publicly um overdose with with Cara [141:05] Swisser about what he thought yeah where [141:07] he overdosed actually a compound [141:09] pharmacy issue he thought was what did [141:11] it. I trust him to do the right [141:12] calculation. And so it does sound like [141:13] that was a compounding pharmacy issue. [141:14] >> Could afford it? Is the buy the farmer a [141:16] great option? [141:16] >> I think back then people were just [141:17] getting them where they can. I I didn't [141:19] ask him why uh why that happened, but [141:22] nonetheless, get the dosage right. Make [141:24] sure you're getting the right stuff [141:25] clean. But he talked about the kind of [141:28] lack of uh motivation, which many people [141:31] have described anecdotally um like, [141:34] okay, lowered their food drive, but [141:36] lowered their drive period. [141:38] >> Yep. [141:38] >> Makes sense, [141:40] >> you know, depending on which pathways [141:41] are being affected. But do you think [141:43] that's a real effect? Is that something [141:44] that people need to be concerned about? [141:45] Do you think people can micro dose this [141:47] stuff? Because a lot of people are micro [141:48] doing it regardless of what their source [141:50] is. They're taking a lot less than the [141:52] kind of standard clinical trials will [141:53] be. And we're leaving out red tide for [141:55] now because it's so new. We're going to [141:56] talk about it, but I'm talking about the [141:59] >> standard ifide. [142:01] Yeah. I'll tell you that you have your [142:02] you know semiglutide which is obey and [142:04] uh the wgov is the FDA approved version [142:06] for the weight loss. For teptide you [142:08] have zeppbound and moner. Zapbound being [142:10] the FDA approved version for weight loss [142:12] that allows them to keep their patents [142:13] for longer. um these medications are [142:16] good kind of transforming medicine [142:18] especially where where I practice right [142:20] if you if we kind of zoom out our [142:22] medical system if we didn't have these [142:24] interventions was going to collapse on [142:25] itself thanks to the obesity [142:27] pre-diabetes diabetes epidemics because [142:30] we don't have enough clinicians or [142:32] finances to get everybody who was [142:34] pre-diabetic in the in the last you know [142:36] 20 years and they all transitioned to [142:37] diabetes and ended up with you know [142:39] diabetic medications and dialysis and [142:41] eventually cardiovascular disease and [142:43] all these things we don't have the [142:44] resources to take care of all these [142:45] people like our medical system was going [142:47] to collapse and there wasn't enough [142:49] finances to take care of it. Now these [142:50] GLP1s are coming in and kind of [142:52] transforming that phase of medicine [142:54] because now we have a chance to [142:56] dramatically change the rate of obesity [142:59] uh diabetes pre-diabetes and all these [143:01] cardio metabolic disorders. So where do [143:04] we stand? We needed something to happen. [143:06] I mean, ideally, everybody, you know, [143:07] would get morning sunlight and eat only [143:09] healthy foods, unprocessed foods, and [143:10] have low stress and sleep great at night [143:12] and maybe no one would develop to become [143:13] obese. But the reality is people become [143:16] overweight, obese. They get stuck in [143:18] that hole. And if you just try to step [143:20] out of the hole the way you came in, [143:22] sometimes that doesn't work. You need a [143:23] different path out of that problem. And [143:26] that that's been, you know, the diet and [143:28] exercise literature for the last 40 [143:29] years. Millions of books have been sold [143:31] on how to get people leaner. We now have [143:34] interventions medically that can [143:35] dramatically change people's weights for [143:37] the first time. We've had drugs in the [143:38] past that you know 5 10% of body weight. [143:41] Now with the GLP1s we're getting 10 20 [143:43] even 30% of body weight being shaved off [143:46] of people especially with the new [143:47] reduced data. Is there a free lunch? [143:50] That's the big question. Like like we [143:52] kind of talked about earlier there's [143:53] always been these medical mishaps that [143:54] have happened. So far the data is very [143:57] promising when it comes to GLP1s and [143:59] that we are now reversing this rate of [144:01] chronic disease. Is it going to stay [144:03] that way? That's a good question. I'm [144:04] I'm cautiously uh optimistic when it [144:06] comes to these medications. I've been [144:09] prescribing them since I was a resident. [144:10] Uh in my VA clinic, I was putting all [144:13] these vets that are, you know, 300 lb on [144:15] GLV1s, they were losing 50, 100 lb. [144:18] Before it was FDA approved for weight [144:20] loss. We knew that that if you put [144:21] diabetics on this drug, they would lose [144:23] weight thanks to a lot of the [144:24] bodybuilders um that kind of pioneered [144:26] that. [144:27] >> When did the bodybuilders first start [144:28] using GLPS? [144:29] >> Uh late 20110s. Wow. [144:32] >> And then the signal I don't I don't [144:35] think Norvo or Lily wanted to make these [144:36] for obesity. They were focused on making [144:38] diabetes drugs because like if we zoom [144:40] out even further, this is another animal [144:42] derived compound, right? It's found in [144:44] the the saliva of the Hila monsters. [144:48] GLP1 was discovered. It's too um short [144:51] acting to have worked on its own. Then [144:53] pharmaceutical companies, this is where [144:54] you got to give pharma their credit. [144:55] they developed these drugs into more [144:56] functioning versions that had you know [144:58] longer half- lives and could stick [145:00] around in the serum for longer to have [145:01] the clinical effect. So then we started [145:03] noticing that diabetics like my my [145:04] grandma got uh Betta which was one of [145:07] these first uh GOP one drugs like 25 [145:09] years ago. It was the out of all the [145:10] drugs she was on the reason I went into [145:12] medicine that was the drug that changed [145:14] her her whole trajectory because she had [145:17] less insulin needs and she was losing [145:18] weight and more energetic. So we had [145:20] seen the effects on diabetics and then [145:22] you get luraglutide dlutide and then [145:24] eventually semiglutide was the is the [145:26] blockbuster but you get all these [145:28] positive effects coming from these drugs [145:30] on diabetics. It gets translated into [145:32] obese people and overweight patients. [145:34] The question is what is the long-term [145:37] effect of this? Do you have to stay on [145:38] this drug forever? Um can you titer it [145:40] off? The the pharmaceutical companies [145:41] have not given us good guidelines on [145:42] that. They've shown us what happens if [145:43] you stop the drug. You can max out on [145:45] maximum dose. Pull the brakes on. People [145:48] tend to sometimes gain the weight. Some [145:50] people don't, but some people will [145:51] regain back to baseline. Because if you [145:53] think about it, the better way to think [145:55] about weight loss, it's a calculation [145:57] your brain does every single day with [145:58] all the different hormones and and [146:00] peptides that are made from the gut, the [146:02] GIP, GLP, glucagon, insulin, [146:05] testosterone, estrogen, all these things [146:06] kind of modulate. And there's this thing [146:08] called a set point theory or settling [146:10] points and they integrate. [snorts] [146:11] Should I eat or not eat, right? So the [146:14] GP1 is a giant signal to the brain of [146:16] don't eat. So we're we're modulating [146:18] this pathway. What happens to all these [146:21] young kids that are 18 19 years old on 5 [146:23] milligrams of ratutide uh that have lost [146:25] 30 40 pounds? Are they going to have to [146:27] be on that for life now to maintain that [146:29] weight? [146:29] >> Can I ask you about that? Because when [146:31] people say [146:33] perhaps you have to be on a drug for the [146:34] rest of your life, I think okay, what's [146:36] the availability? What's the cost? [146:38] >> What's the real world cost of taking six [146:40] months off because you can't access it? [146:42] Y there's a shortage and maybe better [146:44] drugs will come along. Like I don't [146:45] necessarily have a problem with it. [146:47] Although if you talk to type 1 diabetics [146:49] in the old days, they weren't crazy [146:50] about the idea that they had to [146:51] constantly inject themselves with [146:53] insulin. Now there are better better [146:54] delivery devices. I kind of feel like [146:56] eventually there'll be some slowrelease [146:58] um polymer that will just kind of give [147:01] you a micro dose of it. You could dial [147:02] it up if you want. [147:03] >> Those are all pills. Now [147:04] >> personally I don't worry so much about [147:06] like for the rest of your life. I worry [147:07] more about the much shorter life if [147:09] people are obese. But what about these [147:12] brain effects? I I do worry about a [147:14] brain that's developing in the context [147:16] of of a you know thousandfold or more [147:19] increase in these GLPs because when we [147:21] had um Zach Knight on the podcast, he's [147:23] not a clinician, he's a scientist up at [147:24] UCSF, Howard Hughes investigator, which [147:26] means he's like a superstar and deserves [147:28] to be in that category. He described [147:30] that the diabetic drugs would increase [147:32] GLP by like like double, quadruple, but [147:36] the weight loss effects weren't really [147:37] there. But the drugs that you rattled [147:40] off a few minutes ago, Monaro, Zmpic, [147:42] etc. And certainly Red True Tide. We're [147:44] talking about thousandfold increases in [147:46] GPS, we don't know what the long-term [147:47] effects of those are on like [147:48] neuroplasticity and learning. Could be [147:50] great. Yes. [147:51] >> Could be positive. We shouldn't always [147:52] assume those effects are bad. [147:53] >> Yeah. Like the effects for like let's [147:55] say a 60-year-old pre-diabetic diabetic [147:57] on Alzheimer's disease seems to be [148:00] potentially positive. I think the the [148:01] study last year didn't show a good [148:03] signal on our Alzheimer's prevention, [148:04] but we know diabetes and cardio [148:06] metabolic disease speeds up that [148:08] transition. So controlling insulin [148:10] dynamics might be beneficial there and [148:12] the obesity is not great for for [148:13] Alzheimer's risk. The question is what [148:15] about for like these cognitive effects? [148:16] Is the effect happening from the drug [148:18] itself? Is it from misuse of the drug? [148:20] Too too high of a dose. You're not [148:22] getting enough electrolytes. You're not [148:23] getting enough micronutrients, [148:25] macronutrients. You know, your blood [148:26] sugar is low. Because a lot of these [148:28] patients, the way we we approach it is [148:31] training wheel effect when it comes to [148:32] GLP-p1s. Like, hey, you come to us, [148:34] you're a patient, you want to use GLP1s, [148:35] we'll give you a lowest dose as possible [148:37] that has an effect for you, GLP-1 in [148:39] conjunction with lifestyle modification, [148:41] dietary advice, exercise programs, etc., [148:44] etc., and then hopefully peel away those [148:46] those training wheels or keep them on if [148:48] you need them until we get to the end [148:50] point that we want. Now, when people [148:52] [snorts] do it that way, I don't hear a [148:53] lot of these effects anecdotally from [148:55] from Brookley patients that we hear [148:57] about online where people are like, "Oh, [148:59] I'm depressed. I hate my life from from [149:00] these drugs." And the question is, are [149:02] they just, you know, a lot of people [149:04] have low blood pressure from from these [149:06] drugs because they're not, you know, [149:07] consuming enough electrolytes or enough [149:08] food period? [149:09] >> Cuz like some people will take a mega [149:11] dose of these drugs and end up not [149:13] eating like a day goes by, they've eaten [149:17] one meal. That's not conducive to to [149:19] good feeling good. everyone, you know, [149:20] the reason people are eating in the [149:21] first place is because eating is is such [149:22] a pleasurable experience for humans and [149:24] a social experience, etc., etc. The [149:26] other thing is if you're not eating with [149:27] people on the same table, are you having [149:28] less of that socialization aspect? A lot [149:30] of times you meet up to eat or drink or [149:32] whatever it may be. So I'm very curious [149:35] when it comes to the cognitive effects, [149:36] is it from the drug directly interacting [149:38] with receptors in the brain when we [149:40] we've seen that the right amount of dose [149:41] decreases inflammation in the brain or [149:43] is it because of the social aspects of [149:45] the drug changing the way you behave and [149:47] therefore leading to negative out? dare [149:49] you think of confounding variables. It's [149:51] like, no, it's so cool cuz you're [149:52] willing to go outside the box and say, [149:54] "Hey, listen, this might be due to some [149:56] of the um downstream consequences of of [149:59] reduced appetite." [150:00] >> Yeah. And we know the literature shows [150:01] that people now are having less alcohol [150:03] cravings from this. It might be changing [150:05] the way the dopanergic signaling is [150:06] happening in the brain, which is [150:08] concerning, right? Because a lot of [150:09] people will be stacking this with, you [150:11] know, ADHD medications. Uh they might be [150:13] using some of these peptide stimulants, [150:15] um smax link, whatever it may be. So the [150:17] question because what happens is people [150:18] go to these websites, they they buy one [150:19] more peptide and they got a great result [150:21] and they'll be like, you know, let me [150:22] add three more peptides on peptides. [150:23] >> Yes, it's a increasing AOV problem. So [150:26] the average sale value goes up [150:28] >> from these research sites. [150:30] >> We'll see where where GLP ones go. The [150:32] the the reality is it's here. There [150:34] there is no pre GLP1 world for us as [150:36] clinicians, as health enthusiasts. We're [150:38] in a postg world and everything kind of [150:41] dictates downstream from that. The [150:43] people I know who've taken um these and [150:45] I don't know exactly which are taking [150:47] much lower dosages than were prescribed [150:48] to them and they are indeed sharing them [150:51] with getting the prescription than [150:53] people are sharing them. People are cost [150:54] sharing now people [clears throat] are [150:56] trying to get them from other sources. [150:58] Several of those people say they they [150:59] feel like they can think better. But I [151:01] told them, well yeah, if your insulin [151:02] sensitivity is improved, if you're [151:04] carrying less body fat, body fat's an [151:06] endocrine organ. It's you know you need [151:08] some body fat. But [151:10] >> there could be a number of reasons for [151:11] that. I don't know if these are direct [151:12] effects on the brain. [151:13] >> Yeah. Well, I mean leptin sensitivity [151:14] increases as you decrease the body fat [151:16] mass. There's there's GP1 receptors on [151:18] the palm neurons in the brain and no [151:20] one's kind of examined what that means [151:21] downstream for the leptin melano uh [151:23] leptin melanocortin pathway and what [151:25] that means for energy status you know [151:27] thyroid hormone production reproductive [151:29] status. We know a lot of people are oyic [151:31] babies in that a lady will will be [151:33] subfertile or infertile start a weight [151:36] loss drug and then find out by accident [151:38] she's pregnant. [151:39] >> Was she obese before? Yeah, there's [151:41] these are overweight obese women that [151:43] are having um their fertility improve as [151:45] a result of losing the weight because we [151:46] know [151:47] >> uh your leptin status is a key driver of [151:49] fertility because if if you're having [151:50] low leptin levels, you're starving. You [151:52] shouldn't be fertile. If you have too [151:53] much leptin and you're at leptin [151:55] resistant, you shouldn't be having kids [151:56] either. So, both of those those things [151:59] kind of get modulated by these drugs as [152:01] well. [152:01] >> There was a science paper some years ago [152:03] that leptin hitting a certain threshold [152:05] is actually what signals the onset of [152:06] puberty in females. Is that still [152:08] considered true? I think that's that's [152:10] that's part of it [152:11] >> makes sense like enough body fat to [152:12] signal that there are enough resources [152:14] and then um animals or that was an [152:16] animal study or the idea was that people [152:18] perhaps also become females become [152:20] reproductively competent at the point [152:21] where there's enough energetic resources [152:23] that [152:24] >> interesting. Have you ever taken one of [152:25] these? [152:25] >> Oh wow. Yes. I uh [laughter] [152:28] I uh had a family member with a GLP1 pen [152:32] uh from four years ago that um said it [152:36] wasn't working. So I'm like okay let's [152:37] see what's going on here. I got a pen. [152:39] Don't do Don't do this at home. And I [152:41] was like, "Yeah, it's not working. Like, [152:42] it's bunked. They got it from overseas. [152:43] It was a a brand name Ozamic pen, but [152:46] gotten from overseas." Got the pen. I [152:48] was like, "You know what? If it's bunk, [152:49] let's see what it is. Don't do this at [152:50] home." Biohackers in me came out and [152:52] tried it. I injected a I think it was a [152:55] milligram of ombic. [152:56] >> What's a standard dose? [152:57] >> You start at 0.25 and escalate to 0.5. [153:00] >> You went straight to a milligram. [153:01] >> Yeah. Cuz I was like, "Ah." They're [153:02] like, "It doesn't work. I'm I'm eating [153:03] so much." I'm like, "Okay, whatever." [153:04] You got bunk bunk pen from overseas. [153:07] >> [snorts] [153:07] >> I go to do a shift. I was on a night [153:09] shift that day and I've never had [153:11] Charizard like projectile vomiting [153:15] >> and low blood sugar presumably. [153:16] >> The blood sugar effect for for [153:17] non-diabetics don't get that low, but it [153:19] was just miserable. Like I would I would [153:21] go admit a patient, go upstairs, vomit [153:24] in the in the call room. [153:25] >> You just gave a really good reason why [153:27] people shouldn't just do what you just [153:28] described. [153:29] >> No, they shouldn't do that. Uh then go [153:31] back to back to the ER, admit a patient, [153:33] and then it was it was the most [153:34] miserable night of my life. Uh so be [153:37] very careful how you use these drugs. [153:39] That's why titrate very slowly. Um [153:41] luckily with the newer ones the effects [153:43] are much less like people who report and [153:45] retroide even have less of these [153:47] gastrointestinal effects [153:49] >> but um that's a peptide gone wrong [153:51] story. [153:52] >> Peptide gone wrong. Um reatride. Yep. [153:55] >> I put out a post on X. I thought and I [153:58] do still think that it that Red True [154:00] Tide is going to be a trillion dollar [154:01] industry. Not because so many people are [154:04] necessarily going to use it for weight [154:05] loss, [154:06] >> but because many people will use it for [154:08] weight loss. Many people will use it for [154:10] other things because you can be sure, [154:12] absolutely sure that Lily is going to [154:15] find other [154:16] >> ways to market it. And you can protect a [154:19] patent by finding additional uses for [154:21] things. I mean, a lot of the the [154:22] blockbuster drugs for eye diseases, um, [154:25] the patents to prevent generic forms um, [154:29] were continued by Here's the deal, [154:30] folks. companies are really incentivized [154:32] to take the hundreds of millions of [154:34] dollars that they spent on clinical [154:35] trials and research and development and [154:36] not have to do it again. So, if you can [154:38] find another valid use for a drug, you [154:41] don't have to run all the safety stuff, [154:42] you don't have to do a lot of stuff, you [154:44] just have to show efficacy and a few [154:46] other things, but that's the way that [154:48] drug companies continue to play the game [154:51] um to protect their their investment, [154:53] right? I mean, it's you can understand [154:54] why they do it. If you like or not, [154:56] that's that's your business. But um so [154:58] I'm guessing that Reddit True Tide is [155:00] going we're going to discover that it's [155:02] um useful for a number of things and [155:04] from the clinical trials there's a [155:05] reason to believe that's going to be the [155:06] case. [155:07] >> And the big thing they're trying to do [155:08] now is classify as a biologic. So [155:09] Retroide has 39 amino acids. Uh to be a [155:11] biologic you have to be above 40 amino [155:13] acids. [155:13] >> And once you get to above 40 amino [155:15] acids, if you are a biologic, then the [155:17] patent lasts [155:18] >> way longer. I don't know the exact [155:19] number. [155:20] >> It's like 15 years. [155:21] >> Yeah. Much much longer. If it's a if [155:22] it's 40 or below amino acids, then it's [155:25] something like five five to seven years. [155:27] >> Someone in law will have that. [155:28] >> So, we're talking like hundreds of [155:29] hundreds of millions of dollars, maybe [155:31] billions of dollars. If it's a if you [155:33] and you can tinker with this, you can [155:35] amino acids [155:35] >> and more importantly, no one can [155:36] compound it if it's a biologic or if [155:38] it's very difficult to compound like the [155:40] right right certificates. Something [155:41] similar happened with ACG where it was [155:42] taken out of the compounders um [155:44] recently. [155:45] >> Really? Yeah. Yeah. So ACG um [155:47] >> human coriotic ginatotropin this is [155:48] commonly prescribed for trying to [155:50] restore fertility to uh to men but it's [155:53] main mostly being given in IVF cycles to [155:56] women. [155:56] >> Yep. Yeah, [155:57] >> there's a big controversy about ACG [155:59] compounders and who can compound and who [156:00] can't that's that's beyond this. But uh [156:03] this is a very important thing cuz if [156:05] Lily gets rea [156:09] then the compounders are out of luck [156:10] because the compounders all have the [156:11] formula for reetta they're ready to make [156:13] it like they can get the API from China [156:14] and and and start compounding it as soon [156:17] as it's available. It'll it will make [156:18] them all billions of dollars but if Lily [156:20] is able to do this they'll be able to [156:21] protect themselves from what was going [156:23] to happen. You see the Trump [156:24] administration now is trying to get with [156:25] Trump RX Lily and Novaist to drop their [156:28] prices to make it more available which [156:30] has happened like now I think you can [156:32] get a you know $300 monthly dose of [156:34] Tresepite available through these [156:36] websites [156:36] >> used to be 1 1500 [156:37] >> yeah 1 without insurance some insurance [156:39] will cover it some some wouldn't you'd [156:40] have to get you know savvy clinician [156:42] that will advocate on your on your [156:44] behalf to get these covered but cash pay [156:46] between you know even some of the the [156:48] pills I think you can pay 150 bucks a [156:49] month for the oroplon which is not a [156:51] peptide but still GLP1 agonist [snorts] [156:53] um which kind of gets to the point like [156:54] it doesn't matter if it's a peptide or [156:56] not. What matters is where where it [156:57] touches, what receptor it touches [156:58] because orupon is more similar to [157:01] semiglutide. Both of them are GLP-1 [157:03] drugs. One's a peptide, one's not. Then [157:05] BBC is to semiglutide. So like everyone [157:07] online talk about peptides are good or [157:08] peptides are bad. There's no actual [157:10] scientific category of peptides that [157:12] gives you a functional definition that's [157:15] discussable between two people because [157:16] what do you mean by peptide? Do you mean [157:17] carnosine or do you mean ratitude? [157:21] >> Excellent point. uh speaks to a lot of [157:23] the confusion. Um you are a beam of [157:26] clarifying information uh on this. I [157:30] actually am going to put in a vote um [157:32] publicly right here and now, but also uh [157:35] I'm going to do what I can to contact [157:37] folks that are relevant. I think you [157:39] should, no joke, I think you should be [157:41] in charge of a nomenclature committee. I [157:44] think for in in the world of genetics [157:45] for a long time that people would just [157:47] name genes Sonic Hedgehog or you know [157:49] you know sink one or people name it [157:51] after their cousin or what and it was a [157:52] mess and so what ends up happening is [157:54] you find similarity between genes across [157:56] different laboratories and eventually [157:58] you have a meeting and you come up with [158:00] a you have a nomenclature committee and [158:02] then you say this is you know ephrine 1 [158:04] 2 3 4 5 6 these are the sequences the [158:07] general public doesn't think about [158:08] molecules in that way no but [158:10] [clears throat] the general public are [158:11] diving right into this they are the [158:13] experiment and so what I think would be [158:15] very very useful would be a um clear and [158:20] accessible nomenclature to divide up [158:22] what we've talked about today you know [158:24] BPC-157 [158:26] um you know peptides with and without [158:28] known receptors the regenerative [158:30] peptides as you've called them like [158:32] thymus and alpha TB500 which are [158:33] amunogenic peptides I think [158:35] >> the word peptides is just too general [158:37] too general [158:38] >> I'm putting my vote in for you not that [158:39] you don't already have enough to do to [158:41] um come up with some nomen clature that [158:43] maybe I can help propagate and some of [158:45] the other people in the podcast [158:46] community. We'll even contact our our [158:47] our close close friends in in um legacy [158:50] media and explain to them how this works [158:52] and maybe they can help propagate just [158:54] for sake of clarity. Yep. [158:56] >> Right. We're not taking the stance these [158:57] are good or bad but just for sake of [158:59] clarity as given that there's so many [159:01] people that are peptide curious. Okay. [159:03] So before we wrap [159:05] >> I solicited X and Instagram for [159:07] questions about peptides. I did not [159:09] reveal exactly who you are, but I gave [159:11] some of your credentials and got back [159:14] many, many excellent questions. Most of [159:17] which, thanks to you, were answered [159:19] during the course of our conversation up [159:20] until now. But there are a couple of [159:22] them that many people asked, we didn't [159:24] touch on, at least not directly. One [159:26] thing that's come up several times is [159:28] the question about for women who have [159:30] endometriosis or fibroids or other [159:33] things related to reproductive health [159:35] and potential. Can things like BPC57 [159:38] help and or hurt those circumstances [159:40] given their potential role in [159:42] angioenesis and the other things you [159:43] described? [159:44] >> No literature exists on either animal or [159:46] human data that that relates to those [159:48] peptides. I'd say those are more [159:50] hormonal/ metabolic issues that that a [159:53] good obgine should should take care of. [159:54] They're very difficult to treat [159:56] conditions and very miserable to have [159:57] for people and they have fertility [159:58] implications. But those are more on the [160:00] hormonal side. I think the hormonal [160:01] lever is way stronger than a peptide [160:03] level like BBC or any of those. And as [160:06] far as I'm concerned, there's no case [160:07] reports or studies that would suggest [160:09] positive or negative. CNS effects [160:12] central nervous system, excuse me, of [160:14] BPC57 or other peptides that we've [160:17] talked about that are don't fall under [160:19] the, you know, typical um umbrella that [160:22] people, you know, go to when they think [160:24] about BPC57. Now, you talked about some [160:26] of the uh stuff related to alcohol and [160:28] perhaps other things like aderall, but [160:31] anything known about, you know, people [160:33] feeling better or worse on different [160:35] peptides just psychologically, [160:36] neurologically? [160:37] >> TBI, I'll throw TBI in there for myself. [160:39] I I don't have TBI fortunately, but I [160:41] know many people that do. They reach out [160:43] to me. Could it be beneficial in those [160:44] cases? [160:45] >> Yeah, there were studies in Russia on [160:46] TBI when it comes to cortexin and [160:48] cerebralin, which would probably never [160:50] be available in the United States. So, [160:51] we'll we'll we'll skip those. Uh there's [160:53] no good data on BBC TBI. They [160:55] theoretically could be useful from a [160:57] from anti-stress perspective. That would [160:58] be interesting to explore that. BBC's [161:01] neurological effects are very [161:03] homeostatic in nature. They don't let [161:04] you get too high in the in the mice data [161:07] at least. the mice can't get too drunk [161:08] and they can't withdraw from malcol. [161:09] They can't get too high on on the mice [161:11] methamphetamines and they can't get too [161:13] high on the methamphetamines and they [161:14] don't withdraw either. So there's a [161:16] homeostatic mechanism that might explain [161:18] some of these anhidonia uh side effects [161:19] that people are reporting where BBC [161:21] modulates the gut brain access in a way [161:23] which we do not understand. It's kind of [161:25] woowoo that makes it so that your brain [161:27] can't go too far in one direction. Maybe [161:29] in putting if we think of a just just so [161:32] story it's putting you into a rest and [161:34] digest state to heal whatever problem [161:36] you have. If that's why BBC exists as a [161:38] big parent compound that might be part [161:41] of the fact that if you secrete BBC your [161:42] body goes into like a convolescent mode [161:44] because it will it will take away [161:45] stimulants it will take away sedatives [161:47] um don't try this of course but there [161:50] seems to be a homeostatic mechanism in [161:51] BPC that needs to be explored further [161:53] with good data very interesting thank [161:56] you the major question was what should [161:58] people do if they are actually [162:01] interested in obtaining peptides let's [162:04] just set the GLPs aside because it's [162:06] kind of a separate category and they [162:08] want to explore their use and they want [162:10] to be as safe as possible. Where [162:12] shouldn't they look? [162:14] >> Yeah. [162:14] >> Is how I'll phrase the question. Um [162:16] where should they look? Who should they [162:18] talk to? At what point do they can they [162:20] be confident that what they're taking is [162:22] what you know the bottle claims and and [162:24] that it's you know free of contaminants [162:27] um and so on. I many many questions but [162:29] I think this is like kind of the [162:30] question. [162:30] >> Yep. It's it's the most difficult [162:31] question to answer because uh the [162:33] majority of people are getting their [162:34] peptides from research only websites. Uh [162:36] unfortunately those are not reliable. We [162:38] don't know what's in them. They they [162:39] could be good, could be bad, could be as [162:41] good as a compound pharmacy, could be [162:42] much worse, could be the wrong peptide [162:44] in in the vial. So we don't know what's [162:46] in there. What should happen over the [162:47] next 6 12 24 months is there will be a [162:50] lot of physicianled options for patients [162:53] to get peptides. Number one, you should [162:54] encourage your physician if you don't [162:55] have one. Uh, get one and get a good [162:57] relationship with one because having a [162:58] good relationship with your physician is [162:59] a key aspect of driving good health. But [163:01] having a physician that's educated on [163:03] peptides to my doctor friends, all of [163:04] you guys are now live in a peptide era. [163:06] You have no choice but [snorts] to get [163:07] educated. So get educated. We should [163:08] create resources for that. There will be [163:10] a lot of telemet options opening up soon [163:13] uh through various companies that will [163:14] offer these peptides and it will be good [163:16] for the consumer because it'll be a race [163:17] down in price and then we'll know which [163:19] which compoundingies are better which [163:20] ones are worse so you can get a better [163:22] source peptides but you should get them [163:24] from clinicians. The question that's [163:26] going to happen is there's going to be a [163:26] lot of these orally available peptides [163:28] and they're going to be all over [163:29] supplement websites like you you'll find [163:31] them with your magnesium and your [163:32] creatine and then your pinealon or your [163:33] BPC157. The question is what is that [163:36] going to look like? So we'd like, you [163:37] know, our FDA overlords to give give us [163:39] some guidance there on what can and [163:41] cannot be sold and bought. But it should [163:43] be physician le. You should be doing [163:44] this under the guidance of a physician [163:45] that's monitoring you. You know, you [163:47] shouldn't be taking testes in without [163:48] checking IGF-1 levels. Uh a GLP1 even [163:51] should be monitored with the physicians [163:52] that can counsel you on on too much [163:53] weight loss. Like some of these some of [163:54] these celebrities should have had better [163:55] clinicians monitoring their GLP1 [163:57] journeys cuz they lost way too much [163:58] weight. That doesn't look healthy at [164:00] all. Unless someone's first of all [164:02] someone's not having the basics in place [164:03] there's no I point in putting all these [164:05] peptides in like [164:06] >> morning sunlight sleep darkness at night [164:08] yes good diet minimally processed food [164:11] >> yes the next phase of peptide curious [164:13] and peptide driven discussions is going [164:15] to be like how do you incorporate it [164:16] into a giant health system like you do [164:19] morning sunlight blue light blockers and [164:20] epitalon you do you know BPC and you [164:23] work out in the gym or whatever it may [164:24] be there's going to be you know [164:25] protocols that that develop but I think [164:28] within six months there'll be very good [164:29] physician options for everybody Abud, [164:32] amazing. Thank you so much for coming [164:35] here today and again shedding so much [164:37] light on what all of these things are. [164:39] You have an clearly a virtuoso level um [164:43] understanding and ability to communicate [164:44] about the history of these things, what [164:46] they are, what they aren't, what we [164:47] know, what we still don't know, um the [164:49] potential upsides, the potential [164:51] hazards, the uh the regulation, and on [164:53] and on. Um there are 50 other topics [164:56] that you and I must talk about at some [164:58] point. your knowledge of hormones in men [165:01] and women, pregnancy and women's [165:03] hormones affecting the fetus, how [165:04] progesterone impacts DHT and male [165:06] offspring. Incredible. Absolutely want [165:09] to have you back to have that [165:10] discussion, but we'll let people digest [165:11] this in the meantime. We'll put links to [165:13] where people can find you. And I just [165:15] want to say thank you for doing what you [165:16] do. And if you don't mind me sharing, [165:18] you're you're 33 years old. [165:19] >> That's right. [165:20] >> I love that you're a clinician and [165:22] you're practicing medicine, but please [165:24] please please keep wherever you can keep [165:26] up your efforts as a public educator. [165:27] come back and talk to us again. Uh [165:29] you're a gift to us all and um thank you [165:31] so much. [165:32] >> Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here [165:33] and thank you for the kind words. [165:35] >> Thank you for joining me for today's [165:36] discussion with Dr. Abud Bachri. To [165:38] learn more about his work and to find [165:40] links to the various things we [165:41] discussed, please see the show note [165:43] captions. I should also mention that Dr. [165:45] Bachri has just released a new app which [165:47] is focused on circadian biology which we [165:49] didn't talk about today, but he's a true [165:51] expert there as well. You can also find [165:53] a link to that app in the show notes [165:55] caption. 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