David Paulides Accuses Federal Agencies of Hiding National Park Disappearances

David Paulides 指控联邦机构隐瞒国家公园失踪事件 国家公园管理局惯常利用法律豁免阻止获取失踪人员数据，以此隐瞒与非人类实体相关的荒野突发绑架异常模式。 在本期节目中，Joe Rogan 与 David Paulides 深入探讨了围绕荒野失踪事件的高度异常模式，重点指出了来自国家公园管理局的体制性阻力以及搜救追踪犬离奇失效的现象。对话涵盖了一系列错综复杂的怪异现象，包括涉嫌跨维度的大脚怪遭遇事件、针对未分类毛发样本的先进 DNA 研究，以及 Carl Higdon 等历史上的外星人绑架案例。他们还审视了量子力学、致幻剂 DMT 体验，以及近期政府关于非人类智能和飞行器回收披露举措之间的交叉联系。 在一名优胜美地国家公园护林员力劝其关注一系列令人不安的未解案件后，David Paulides 转向了失踪人员调查。 (0:12) 初期的搜寻工作受到广泛关注，但搜救行动与机构层面的重视程度往往会在 10 至 15 天内骤然中断。 (0:12) 国家公园管理局惯常拒绝有关历史失踪案件的《信息自由法》（FOIA）申请，且常常援引第 7A 项豁免条款，坚称数十年前的失踪案仍在调查之中。 (2:00) “Missing 411”案件频繁出现“分离点”特征，即当事人在完全落单的瞬间便即刻消失。 (21:04) Paulides 指出，在其包含 1,200 至 1,500 起异常案例的庞大数据库中，训练有素的追踪犬完全无法追踪或直接拒绝追踪受害者的气味。 (18:00)

Former law enforcement investigator David Paulides contends that an unacknowledged pattern of wilderness disappearances exhibits anomalies that defy standard search-and-rescue models, including canine tracking failures, sudden amnesia, and unusual body positioning. Discussing these findings with Joe Rogan, Paulides attributes these unresolved cases to a spectrum of causes ranging from institutional obstruction and covert intelligence extractions to interdimensional phenomena. Anomalous Vanishing Patterns and Search Canine Failures (18:00) Paulides differentiates standard wilderness fatalities from "Missing 411" cases by excluding incidents involving animal predation, focusing instead on unexplainable geographic and physical patterns. A central hallmark is the "point of separation"—the precise instant an individual is left alone, exemplified by the sudden vanishing of propulsion scientist Reza when her hiking companion walked ahead. Drawing on his SWAT background, Paulides notes that across roughly 1,500 database cases, professional tracking dogs consistently refuse or fail to track scents. Victims are frequently found in boulder fields or near water, while recoveries present further anomalies: clothes found neatly stacked in warm weather, survivors experiencing abrupt amnesia thousands of miles away, and bodies discovered at distances from cliff faces that park investigators described as "launched." Federal Obstruction and Missing Persons Record Costs (12:48) Paulides's research began after off-duty Yosemite National Park rangers disclosed that searches are routinely terminated after 10 to 15 days, despite durable human artifacts surviving indefinitely in the wild. Paulides details extensive federal obstruction when attempting to obtain records under the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA). A National Park Service special agent told him he would never receive cold case files, and the Department of the Interior claimed it maintained no centralized database of missing individuals. When Paulides formally requested a master list, officials quoted him $1.4 million to compile nationwide records and $34,000 for Yosemite alone. Follow-up attempts initiated through Representative Tim Burchett to address the agency's resistance produced no official response. High-Strangeness Encounters and Interdimensional Hypotheses (23:36) To account for missing tracks and sudden disappearances, Paulides and Rogan explore anomalous aerial encounters. Paulides details the 1974 Medicine Bow encounter of hunter Carl Higdon, who reported slow-motion ballistics, stasis-bound elk, telepathic entities, and the spontaneous healing of his tuberculosis scars, occurring alongside contemporaneous classified UFO sightings over nearby ICBM installations. Paulides also cites research from Skinwalker Ranch, where Colum Kellaher's team reported observing an eight-foot bipedal entity emerge from an expanding light tube. Discussing quantum entanglement and altered states of consciousness, Rogan and Paulides speculate whether such phenomena utilize spacetime manipulation rather than mechanical travel, noting the "hitchhiker effect" where anomalies reportedly follow investigators home. Bigfoot Genetics and Evasive Capabilities (57:00) Examining reported Bigfoot encounters across North America, Paulides outlines a five-year investigation that led to a $400,000 study overseen by DNA court expert Dr. Melba Ketchum. After institutions including UC Davis and the University of Texas declined the research, Ketchum's team tested 125 unidentified hair samples, which Paulides claims yielded recognizable maternal DNA alongside an unclassified paternal lineage. Paulides also highlights Navajo Ranger investigations documenting 4-to-5-foot straight-line gaits, heavy soil depressions, and correlations with aerial phenomena. Because searches consistently yield no skeletal remains and trail cameras rarely capture images, Paulides and Rogan theorize that the entities may perceive infrared spectrums or operate as interdimensional beings capable of materializing and dematerializing. Intelligence Agency Involvement and Covert Extractions (117:32) Introducing a non-paranormal theory for specific wilderness disappearances, Paulides points to covert intelligence operations, focusing on the 2006 Olympic National Park vanishing of Gilbert Gilman. Gilman, a former Army intelligence officer with suspected CIA connections, walked into the woods dressed in a Hawaiian shirt and flip-flops and was never found. While Gilman's mother was assisting search efforts, FBI agents accessed her Chicago penthouse without a warrant to confiscate personal effects and an Arabic notepad left by her son. Rejecting theories linking the case to an alleged local serial killer due to the complete lack of physical or canine tracking evidence, Paulides argues the circumstances suggest a planned government extraction or silencing operation. Paulides's documentation reveals distinct logistical, forensic, and bureaucratic patterns across missing persons cases, yet establishes no single definitive cause. The findings remain caught between unresolved natural anomalies, institutional secrecy, and high-strangeness hypotheses, leaving the core mechanics of these disappearances an open question.

前执法人员 David Paulides 在本期节目中指出，北美荒野中存在大量符合特定反常模式的失踪事件，并质疑联邦管理机构在搜寻与信息公开上存在系统性阻碍。他与主持人 Joe Rogan 探讨了这些失踪案例中追踪犬失效、物理痕迹反常等现象，进而延伸至跨维度生物、大脚怪 DNA 调查及可能的情报机构介入。 荒野反常失踪模式与搜寻机制失效 (0:12) Paulides 介绍其研究始于优胜美地国家公园，当时两名休班护林员向他透露公园内失踪事件频繁发生，但搜救行动通常在10至14天内戛然而止。Paulides 强调，其筛选的案例会主动排除动物捕食的情况，重点关注无法用常规原理解释的事件：搜救犬与专业追踪人员在现场完全找不到气味或足迹，失踪往往伴随着突发恶劣天气，且当事人常在花岗岩巨石堆或水体附近消失。在统计上，这类异常失踪者约有40%至50%再未被寻获；在找到的人员中，半数存活，半数死亡。 部分获救或寻获遗体的现场呈现出难以用常理解释的物理特征。例如一名在纽约滑雪时失踪的多伦多消防员，在毫无跨国旅途记忆的情况下突然在加州一辆卡车上恢复意识；还有猎人或徒步者在与同伴短暂分离的瞬间即彻底消失。搜救人员有时会在摄氏20多度（华氏80度）的气候下，在距失踪点仅百码处发现当事人整齐脱下的全套衣物，或者遗体落在远离崖壁、被公园官方记录为“被发射（launched）”出的不可思议距离。Paulides 拥有1,200到1,500起搜救犬拒绝追踪或无能为力的案例库，直指搜救常规手段在此类事件中的系统性失效。 联邦机构的信息阻碍与管辖争议 (12:48) 针对国家公园管理系统的应对方式，Paulides 指责相关联邦机构存在严重的行政阻挠与信息封锁。休班护林员曾就失踪案件向自己任职的国家公园管理局提交《信息自由法》（FOIA）申请，但遭到拒绝。Paulides 本人索取冷案档案时，亦曾遭国家公园调查特工直接回绝并挂断电话，对方坚称他永远不可能拿到案卷。 在试图全面掌握失踪规模时，Paulides 发现联邦内政部声称并不存在全系统失踪人口的总名单。官方随后向他开出高额费用门槛：汇总全国名单索价140万美元，仅优胜美地单一园区的名单就索取3.4万美元。尽管他曾试图通过联邦众议员 Tim Burchett 接触内政部高层以反映阻挠问题，但相关沟通均未获得实质回应。讨论中指出，这种官僚壁垒既可能是机构为掩盖管理无能、避开额外工作量所致，也可能是在刻意掩盖更为复杂的异常状况。 未知实体、维度跃迁与意识假说 (23:36) 对话探讨了失踪事件是否与未知地外实体或多维空间存在重叠。节目详述了怀俄明州猎人 Carl Higdon 在 Medicine Bow 国家森林的经历：Higdon 称射出的子弹在空中凝固坠落，随后被两名通过心灵感应沟通的实体带入飞行器，并看到被凝固的麋鹿与其他静止的人形；医学检查显示其陈年肺结核病灶在事后离奇消失。解密资料显示，案发期间邻近的夏延市空军基地正发生 ICBM 导弹发射井上空的未公开 UFO 聚集目击，两者在时间和地理上高度吻合。 针对超常现象的物理机制，Paulides 与 Rogan 讨论了量子纠缠、瞬时空间操纵以及“皮行者牧场（Skinwalker Ranch）”的调查报告。牧场研究人员曾目睹发光管道中走出黑色双足实体，随行科研人员事后还报告了实体尾随至家中的“搭便车效应（hitchhiker effect）”。两人将这些记录与高剂量 DMT 体验、中国云南食肉蘑菇引发的统一小人幻觉进行对比，探讨现实本身是否受观察者效应影响，并推测异常现象可能源于意识维度的交互或非标准生物对物理规律的操纵。 大脚怪的基因研究与隐匿机制探讨 在两位企业创始人的资金资助下，Paulides 曾开展长达五年的大脚怪调查。在北美大烟山国家公园等地，调查团队仿照野生动物研究方法采集毛发样本，但遭遇主流科研机构的冷遇，加州大学戴维斯分校和德克萨斯大学等机构均因课题关联大脚怪而拒绝合作。最终，德州法医 DNA 专家 Melba Ketchum 博士团队介入，耗资约40万美元对来自各地的125份有效样本进行了基因检测。 检测结果显示，样本线粒体 DNA 显示母系来源，但细胞核 DNA 显示未知的父系谱系。Paulides 坚决反驳学界的样本污染假说，指出若由他个人污染，结果应呈现其自身的俄罗斯血统，而非未收录于基因库中的全新数据。针对野外从未发现实体骨骼且难以被红外相机捕捉的质疑，他们推测这类生物可能具备感知红外光谱的能力，甚至具备高超智力或进出多维空间的能力，原住民长久以来的传说亦将其描述为与发光飞行物相伴出现的生灵。 情报背景人员失踪与人为介入疑云 (117:32) 除超自然维度的解释外，Paulides 强调部分国家公园失踪案带有明显的人为干预与国家安全背景。2006年，曾任陆军情报官员、精通六门语言的 Gilbert Gilman 在华盛顿州奥林匹克国家公园离奇失踪。Gilman 曾供职于华盛顿州退休服务部门，失踪当天身穿夏威夷衬衫、百慕大短裤和人字拖走进林区，现场搜救犬和搜救队在当日均未发现任何挣扎痕迹、血迹或脚印。 后续调查揭示了更为诡异的官方动作：Gilman 失踪前夕曾极度焦虑地联络女友，其母则证实他在芝加哥公寓留下了写有阿拉伯语的记事本。在母亲赶赴搜救现场期间，联邦调查局（FBI）特工在未出示搜查令的情况下强行进入其公寓取走了笔记本与个人物品。Paulides 驳斥了连环杀手致死的推论，认为 Gilman 极可能预先知晓自己的处境，事件背后更可能指向联邦情报机构针对掌握机密或敏感信息人员的定向隐匿或清除行动。 本期节目梳理了荒野神秘失踪案中搜寻手段失效、官方机构阻碍与超自然物理反常的多重视角，但双方均承认目前仍缺乏能够定性所有谜团的统一定论。对于究竟是多维实体介入、极端自然机制还是情报机构秘密行动主导了这些事件，仍属于高度未决的开放问题。

## Background 本期节目由频道 PowerfulJRE 于 2026 年 5 月 20 日发布在 YouTube 平台。视频简介介绍，嘉宾大卫·保利德斯（David Paulides）是一位作家、调查员、纪录片导演及前执法人员，著有探讨北美荒野与国家公园神秘人口失踪的《Missing 411》系列和多部关于大脚怪的著作，其最新影片包括《American Sasquatch》与《Missing 411: National Parks - Washington State》。 ## TL;DR 节目围绕北美国家公园与荒野深处大量离奇失踪的“Missing 411”现象展开深入探讨。保利德斯分享了自己受护林员启发启动调查的经历，披露了国家公园管理局在信息公开法（FOIA）申请中对失踪档案的严密阻挠与天价要价，并梳理了搜救犬异常失灵、遗留物凭空出现、受害者反常脱衣以及目标集中于马鹿猎人和德裔人群等规律性谜团。对话还结合卡尔·希格登事件、皮克斯金沃克牧场异象、大脚怪 DNA 测序争议及致幻体验与意识本质，讨论了异次元传送门、UFO 绑架与政府特工绝密撤离等多重可能性。 ## Atmosphere & style 全片弥漫着浓厚的神秘悬疑与冷峻探究氛围，对话在罗根的好奇追问与保利德斯克制严谨的警务调查视角之间碰撞推进。从对荒野残忍吞噬生命的现实剖析，到直面高维空间、意识图谱与不可思议卷宗时的战栗感，两人在理性怀疑与超自然假说之间反复拉扯。整场对话既带有深夜电台般引人入胜的阴冷惊悚感，又交织着对官僚掩盖真相的无奈以及对受害者家庭悲剧的深切叹惋。 ## Bulletin - [14:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=843s) 前执法人员戴维·保利德斯（David Paulides）揭露，国家公园管理局系统性封锁野生环境失踪人员档案，不仅常以“进行中的刑事调查”为由驳回 FOIA 申请，更曾对全国内政部失踪名单开出 140 万美元的天价统计费。 - [07:22](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=442s) “Missing 411”数据库记录了 1200 至 1500 起搜救犬极端失常案例，搜救犬在失踪现场无法追踪气味甚至惊恐退缩，大量尸体在被地毯式排查后的核心区域突然凭空重现。 - [59:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=3588s) 凯彻姆博士耗资 40 万美元针对大脚怪毛发进行的 DNA 测序显示其线粒体 DNA 虽源于人类母系，但父系细胞核 DNA 在国际基因库（GenBank）数十亿碱基对中完全无法匹配，虽遭学界质疑污染，但引发生物杂交与跨维度假说探讨。 - [21:33](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=1293s) 统计显示北美荒野猎人离奇失踪具有显著规律，案件几乎百分之百发生于同伴分开的“分离点”，且高海拔深山马鹿（Elk）猎人与德裔人群在失踪与疑似外星劫持档案中占比异常偏高。 ## Key takeaways - [00:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=1s) 国家公园搜救行动通常在 10 到 14 天内强行中止，公园管理局对后续调查三缄其口并严厉限制内部护林员调阅案件卷宗。 - [02:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=150s) 人类随身携带的橡胶鞋底、皮带扣、枪械等耐候金属与皮革制品无法被自然降解，失踪现场全无装备残余违背了基本的荒野分解规律。 - [05:06](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=306s) 部分受害者在失踪后离奇出现在数千英里外并伴随顺行或逆行性失忆，暗示某种外在力量可能精准抹除或重置了人类记忆。 - [07:22](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=442s) 搜救犬在千余起 Missing 411 案件中表现出反本能的气味失灵与恐慌回避，随后尸体往往离奇出现在已被反复梳理过的开阔地带。 - [16:34](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=994s) 国家公园管理局对封存数十年且无嫌疑人的冷案（如 Stacy Arras 案）动用“豁免条款 7A”严防死守，拒绝解密持续引发行政掩盖的质疑。 - [21:33](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=1293s) 荒野猎人失踪案核心规律体现为“分离点”锁定，灾难永远降临于猎人与同伴分道扬镳、独自落单的一瞬间，并伴随地表足迹的凭空蒸发。 - [23:36](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=1416s) 卡尔·希格登等经典劫持案展现出子弹空中悬停、局部时空冻结以及身体慢性病绝症神秘自愈等难以用常规物理学解释的特征。 - [28:58](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=1738s) 外星生命在偏远高山劫持马鹿与落单猎人的模式，可能类似于人类生物学家深入丛林对灵长类动物进行麻醉取样与放归的冷酷生态监测行为。 - [39:59](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=2399s) 皮克斯金沃克牧场科研人员亲历的发光管道与爬出双足生物事件，指向大脚怪等神秘生物可能属于能够自如开启空间传送门的跨维度存有。 - [01:18:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=4680s) 北美原住民部落文化中为大脚怪保留了数十种称谓，但一致将其视作具有高度智慧、“源自群星”的同源人族部族而非野蛮猿类。 - [01:23:56](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=5036s) 中国云南“见手青”等致幻真菌引起的高度一致“小人”幻觉，以及 DMT 体验中普遍出现的具象实体，引发了人类大脑是否仅为维度过滤“收音机”的科学哲学假想。 - [01:48:05](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=6485s) Missing 411 案例严格排除了猛兽撕咬袭击，其高频环境共性包括花岗岩巨石堆、近水域，以及在华氏 80 度温和气温下的反常整齐脱衣现象。 - [01:48:05](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=6485s) 优胜美地等地的部分坠亡案中尸体水平抛离断崖极远，官方报告罕见使用“被发射抛出”（launched）一词，吻合高空抛掷的物理特征。 - [01:57:34](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=7054s) 精通多国语言的前情报官员吉尔伯特·吉尔曼等案表明，部分所谓的荒野国家公园失踪案背后可能存在情报机构蓄意安排特工秘密撤离并抹去身份的痕迹。 - [02:15:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=8130s) 雷尼尔山不仅是 1947 年肯尼斯·阿诺德引爆现代 UFO 热潮的起点，其山脚周边区域亦聚集了十多起携专业装备人员无痕迹蒸发的悬案。 ## Detailed walkthrough ### [00:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=1s) 与 Art Bell 的渊源与国家公园护林员的秘密造访 节目开场，Joe Rogan 热情欢迎 David Paulides，并提醒他调整麦克风距离，保持在离脸部约一拳的位置。Rogan 提到自己最早是通过已故传奇电台主持人 Art Bell 了解到 Paulides 的工作的，甚至直呼 Bell 为“史上最佳（GOAT）”。在早期从好莱坞喜剧工坊（The Comedy Store）演完回家的路上，经常是凌晨一点钟，Rogan 总会收听 Bell 在内华达州奈县“奈之王国”（Kingdom of Nye）主持的深夜电台节目《Coast to Coast AM》。随后，Rogan 问及 Paulides 的执法人员背景，以及他是如何踏入神秘失踪案件这一领域的。 Paulides 回忆，当时他已经出版过几本书。有一次他在优胜美地国家公园（Yosemite National Park）就另一个课题做研究，期间注意到有两名公园护林员一直在暗中观察、跟着他。回到园内的住处约一个半小时后，其中一名护林员换上了便装前来敲门，自报身份并坦言自己是利用下班时间私下来访，希望和这位拥有执法背景的前警官谈谈公园里人口失踪的问题。约一个半小时后，该护林员的搭档也赶到了房间。 两位护林员透露，他们多年来调动过多个国家公园，每次遇到失踪案，前期的搜救声势往往极其浩大，媒体关注度高、搜救活动频繁，但大约在10到14天后，所有行动就会戛然而止。出于担忧，这两名内部人员甚至依照《信息自由法》（FOIA）向自己的主管机构申请调阅这些失踪案件的报告，结果却全被驳回；他们尝试申请其他公园的类似卷宗，同样碰壁。搜救期一过，后续工作便化为乌有，公园管理局（NPS）对此三缄其口。他们认为失踪人数实在太多，希望有体制外的专业人士能从外部介入并建立数据库进行调查。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 国家公园失踪案件搜救生命周期与信息封锁 accDescr: 展示国家公园失踪事件发生后搜救工作的停滞过程及护林员遭遇的信息阻碍 subgraph Phase1["常规搜救阶段"] A["游客在国家公园离奇失踪"] --> B["搜救启动：媒体关注与密集搜查 (10-14天)"] end subgraph Phase2["停滞与沉默"] B --> C["搜救宣布结束，所有后续行动终止"] C --> D["案件被官方边缘化，不再跟进"] end subgraph Phase3["内部质疑与外部介入"] D --> E["在职护林员申请 FOIA 调阅卷宗遭拒"] E --> F["私下联络具备执法背景的外部调查员 (David Paulides)"] end ``` ### [02:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=150s) 搜救终止后的真空：捕食者与无法消逝的遗留物 针对护林员的顾虑，Rogan 追问其潜台词究竟是怀疑有邪恶力量作祟，还是单纯因搜寻无果而放弃。从现实角度来看，普通人在荒野迷失两周以上生还概率极低，国家公园面积动辄成百上千平方英里，搜救资源本就有限；加之荒野捕食者众多，尸体暴露在野外很快就会被自然分解和吞噬。Rogan 举例问 Paulides 是否在林中见过自然死亡的美洲狮或熊；Rogan 提到自己常年在野外打猎，除了见过一只被同类咬死的熊外，极少见到自然死亡的野生动物尸体，因为大自然的分解者甚至会把骨头都啃噬殆尽。 Paulides 认同自然界吞噬尸体的残酷现实，但他指出，自己长年与护林员合作后认识到一个铁律：人类进入荒野随身携带的某些物品是几乎无法被自然界轻易消灭的。 - **极难降解的个人随身物品**：鞋子、皮带扣、皮革制品、内裤的橡胶松紧带。 - **高耐候性装备与武器**：步枪、手枪、弓箭及金属配件。 Paulides 强调，护林员们最核心的困惑并不在于搜救成本，而是在短时间内有太多人以极不寻常的方式消失，却无人追究，甚至连统计数据都没有。两名护林员正是觉得体制内处处受限，才寄希望于外部力量能够拼凑出这些失踪拼图的全貌。 ### [05:06](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=306s) 无法解释的离奇案例：横跨大陆的失忆滑雪者 Rogan 提到大部分失踪案可以通过意外死亡或野兽袭击来合理解释，但有少数案件完全超出了常理。他提及一起加拿大滑雪者的悬案：一名来自多伦多的消防员与几名好友前往纽约州（白脸山）进行周末滑雪旅行。当天滑雪结束集结准备返程时，同伴们却找不到他的踪影，搜救随即展开。 令人震惊的是，该男子随后竟出现在2500英里外的加州萨克拉门托。据当事人回忆，他并不是在卡车货箱里“睡醒”，而是突然在行驶于雷诺至萨克拉门托高速公路的卡车副驾驶座上“思维瞬间重启”。在意识恢复的刹那，他甚至正自然地与卡车司机交谈，神志完全无缝衔接。卡车司机将他送到萨克拉门托机场后离开，由于当事人极度尴尬且困惑，甚至没有开口询问司机到底是在哪里把自己捎上车的。 男子的记忆全盘缺失，但他依然记得家里的电话号码。当他穿着整套滑雪服在加州拨通多伦多妻子的电话时，妻子震惊地表示所有人还在纽约州的雪场漫山遍野地搜救他。关于这段跨越整个北美大陆的旅程，没有任何中间记忆流出，神秘的卡车司机身份也成了一桩无从查证的悬案。 ### [07:22](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=442s) 失踪与失忆现象：不可解释的外力与离奇出现的尸体 面对这类记忆断层的现象，Rogan 询问这是否指向了某种非人类实体或外星绑架的可能。Paulides 表示，在纵向对比大量失踪案件后，许多失踪者归来时都伴随严重的逆行性失忆，这种状态非常吻合传统绑架事件中的心理特征——某种外在力量似乎能精准抹除人类的部分记忆，以掩盖其行为。 Paulides 特别列举了他记录中关于“中西部卡车司机离奇失踪”的特定群体案例： - **印第安纳州独立卡车司机案**：一名为人踏实、有妻有子的独立卡车司机运载了一车货物（疑似活猪），其卡车随后被发现停靠在印第安纳州郊区的一条双车道公路旁。司机不知所踪，但他的一件大衣却被扔在马路对面的水沟里。 - **毫无破绽的地毯式搜查**：当地警长出动直升机航拍、搜救人员和多组 K-9 警犬团队，在卡车周围的田野及树林进行了长达四五天的地毯式排查，毫无所获。 - **惊悚的重现**：一周半后，司机的尸体赫然出现在那片此前被反复搜寻、地势开阔平坦的田野正中央。验尸官判定其已死亡长达两周。 警长完全无法理解这种结果，因为该区域曾被警犬和搜救人员反复踏过，绝不可能遗漏如此明显的成年人体。Paulides 指出，他的档案库里足足有约 1500 起类似案例——多组搜救犬团队反复搜寻无果，尸体却在事后离奇出现在搜索核心区。他断言这绝非搜救人员渎职或工作犬同时失灵，唯一的合理解释是：在搜救进行期间，那些受害者根本不在那个空间维度，尸体是后来才被放回原处的。 ### [09:57](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=597s) 调查的第一桩迷案：优胜美地 Stacy Arras 失踪事件 当 Rogan 问起是哪一起案件真正让他彻底深陷并坚信其背后另有隐情时，Paulides 指向了发生在优胜美地国家公园的年轻女孩 Stacy Arras 案。巧合的是，Arras 的成长地是加州的萨拉托加（Saratoga），距离 Paulides 长大的库比蒂诺（Cupertino）仅有约五英里。 当年，Stacy 与年迈的父亲以及另外五名游客报名参加了公园承包商组织的骑马深度游，在一名牛仔向导的护送下前往高海拔的高山营地（High Sierra Camp）。到达木屋营地后，众人安顿下来。Stacy 拿上相机对父亲说，打算独自走到不远处的一处观景点拍摄风景照。当时，队中一名 72 岁的老人就坐在观景点附近，而 Stacy 就在众目睽睽与极近的距离内，踏入了一场至今未解的迷雾之中。 ### [11:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=661s) 优胜美地十四岁少女失踪案与信息公开遭拒 大卫·保利德斯（David Paulides）继续讲述发生在优胜美地国家公园（Yosemite National Park）的14岁少女史黛西（Stacy Arras）失踪案。当年史黛西对父亲说要去不远处的岩石旁给那位骑马的老人拍照，父亲看着她走过去坐下。拍完照片后，史黛西起身向山下的一处小湖走去，湖边环绕着茂密的树林，显然她是想走进林间拍摄湖景，然而她就此人间蒸发。这起案件引发了优胜美地历史上规模最大的搜救行动之一，但搜救人员最终只在那条林间小道上找到了一个相机镜头盖，史黛西本人却杳无音信。 这起离奇案件发生在46年前。保利德斯曾依据《信息自由法》（FOIA）向国家公园管理局申请调阅当年的调查报告和所有案卷，却接连遭到驳回与上诉驳回。国家公园管理局的警务架构分为两层：基层是在国家执法学院受训的制服巡警（National Park Service police），上层则是负责后续侦查的特工探员（Special Agents）。该案的文件便由一名主管特工掌控。 在案件封存40年无人问津后，一名姓余（Yu）的特工特意打电话质问保利德斯为何要调阅此案。保利德斯提醒对方根据 FOIA 法规，执法部门无权盘问申请动机。然而该特工态度极为强硬而粗暴，直接声称：“你绝不可能拿到这份案卷。”当保利德斯表明自己也是退役执法人员、并指出该案40多年来根本无人碰过时，对方竟直言不讳地说“不关你的事，趁早死心吧”。该特工甚至咬定公园管理局从未向外提供过失踪人员案卷，保利德斯当场反驳自己此前已通过合法途径获取了该机构在全美各地的30多份失踪案档案，直斥对方在说谎。对方随后挂断了电话，此案至今仍处于深不见底的封锁状态。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: FOIA Request and Rejection Flow accDescr: Diagram showing David Paulides' failed FOIA requests and confrontation with the National Park Service. subgraph Case["优胜美地悬案 (46年前)"] A["14岁少女史黛西失踪"] --> B["大规模搜救仅找到镜头盖"] end subgraph FOIA["信息公开申请流程"] B --> C["保利德斯提交 FOIA 申请"] C --> D["初审驳回 & 行政复议驳回"] D --> E["特工介入电话交涉"] end subgraph Standoff["行政阻力与僵局"] E --> F["特工以非公开权限为由强行拒绝"] F --> G["引用豁免条款 7A 封存案件"] end ``` ### [14:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=843s) 内政部的天价清单与官僚阻碍 由于体制内的重重阻力，保利德斯找到了不久前刚做客罗根节目的联邦众议员蒂姆·伯切特（Tim Burchett），希望能引荐会见内政部部长道格·伯格姆（Doug Burgum），当面揭露内政部及其下属国家公园管理局内部存在的行政阻挠。那些40多年前经办案件的人员如今早已退休甚至大半离世，公开冷案档案根本不可能危及任何在职执法人员。伯切特的办公室随后协助联系了内政部，内政部工作人员虽口头承诺回电跟进，但保利德斯连续致电三次均石沉大海。 保利德斯指出，仅优胜美地国家公园一处，至今下落不明的失踪者就超过50人。大约12年前，他曾向内政部索取优胜美地乃至整个国家公园系统的失踪人员官方名单，对方却荒唐地表示“系统从未统计过此类名单”。当保利德斯以出版作家的合法身份要求官方统计并提供该名单时，内政部开出了令人瞠目的天价账单： - 汇总整个内政部管辖系统的失踪人员名单：报价 **140万美元** - 仅汇总优胜美地国家公园一处的失踪名单：报价 **3.4万美元** 面对这种敲诈式的推诿，保利德斯花费整整两年时间，自费通过各种渠道独立整理出了失踪人员名录并在书中公布。耐人寻味的是，到了第三年，优胜美地公园官方竟突然自行公开了一份该园区的失踪者名单，其内容与保利德斯的调查完全吻合；然而时至今日，涵盖整个内政部系统的全国失踪名单依然处于“不存在”的状态。 ### [16:34](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=994s) 豁免条款7A与“持续中的刑事调查”之谜 乔·罗根（Joe Rogan）在现场调阅了国家公园管理局2011年发给保利德斯的公开驳回文件，文件显示军方与内政部驳回其复议申请的法律依据是《信息自由法》中的“豁免条款 7A”（Exemption 7A）。罗根当场念出了条款定义：该条款允许执法部门扣留用于执法目的的调查材料，前提是材料的公开可能对正在进行的执法程序构成合理干预。 对于一起发生于40多年前、从未锁定过嫌疑人的失踪事件，官方竟然以“可能妨碍刑事调查”为由拒绝解密，罗根直呼这简直“太诡异了”。保利德斯从警务专业角度剖析了其中的巨大破绽： - 人员失踪（Missing Person）在法律层面上本身并不等同于刑事犯罪，擅自离开或迷失荒野并非违法行为。 - 如果案件存在谋杀、绑架等犯罪嫌疑，官方必须将其归类为“可疑情况下的刑事案件”，交由重案侦查员立案侦办，而不是挂着常规失踪人员的名头。 - 既然公园管理局认定这是一起仍在进行中的刑事调查，为何数十年间没有任何后续侦查动作？而且该机构此前已经向保利德斯移交过40余起同类失踪案卷，唯独对史黛西案严防死守。 罗根推测，除了潜在的秘密隐瞒之外，这很大程度上也反映了官僚系统的惰性与傲慢——那些体制内的懒政者讨厌外人指手画脚，直接把提出尖锐问题的作家视为麻烦制造者。 ### [18:34](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=1114s) 搜救犬的反常反应与科研人员失踪谜案 面对罗根关于深层真相的追问，保利德斯分享了他在特警队（SWAT）服役时的切身经历。在他的执法生涯中，警犬队一旦出动搜捕目标，几乎从未失手过。然而在保利德斯搜集归档的“Missing 411”数据库中，竟然存在着 1200 到 1500 起搜救犬出现极端异常行为的案例：训练有素的工作犬在失踪现场完全无法追踪气味、拒绝往前追踪，甚至吓得转头往回跑，直接坐在地上不愿工作。这种完全违背犬类生物本能的行为模式，在常规野外搜救中极其罕见。 罗根随即联想到近期发生的一起离奇失踪案：一名参与前沿推进推进技术（propulsion research）的女性科学家与朋友结伴徒步。当时朋友走在前面，两人刚刚交谈过几句，朋友仅回过头打算问一个问题，在短短几秒钟的视线盲区内，身后的女科学家便彻底消失了。随后的地毯式搜救中，搜救犬同样未能捕捉到任何气味踪迹。保利德斯证实这起案件完全符合他制定的 411 异常失踪特征指标，他为此专门做过专题分析。 当罗根直截了当地询问保利德斯是否相信背后存在超自然、外星生物或跨维度（interdimensional）力量在作祟时，保利德斯展现了克制严谨的态度。他表示自己无法给出确切结论，多年来他在书中只记录无法辩驳的冰冷事实，将结论留给读者自行判断。紧接着，他引出了另一个更为庞大且充满诡异特征的受害群体——那些全副武装却在山林中瞬间消失的专业猎人们。 ### [21:33](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=1293s) “分离点”定律与搜救犬的气味失灵 大卫·保利德斯（David Paulides）向乔·罗根（Joe Rogan）阐述了猎人失踪案中最核心的两大不可思议规律。第一条被称为“分离点”（point of separation）。假设你和同伴去农场猎野猪，两人商量好“你往那边走，我往这边走，一小时后碰头”——只要是涉及猎人失踪的案件，几乎百分之百发生在两人分开的那一瞬间。灾难绝不会发生在他们并肩同行的时候，目标永远是落单的那个人。 第二条规律则是极其反常的警犬搜救失效现象。警方会出动最顶尖的搜救犬，甚至在阿拉斯加请来经验极其丰富的原住民专业追踪专家，但他们完全找不到任何足迹或气味。在正常的荒野环境中，任何人从 A 点走到 B 点，都必然会踩出脚印、留下气味微粒；然而在这些失踪现场，追踪犬却完全闻不到任何踪迹，仿佛目标在走过“分离点”之后就彻底脱离了地表。 --- ### [22:31](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=1351s) 华盛顿州植树工目击事件：被UFO直接吸走的麋鹿 保利德斯提到了他在纪录片《411失踪档案：被猎捕者》（*Missing 411: The Hunted*，可在 Tubi 平台免费观看）中收录的一桩离奇集体目击案。在华盛顿州的一座大山上，有12名工人正在半山腰植树，山脚下正好有一群麋鹿在活动。突然之间，所有工人都目睹了一个经典的飞碟状不明飞行物（UFO）沿山体飞来，悬停在其中一只麋鹿的正上方。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 华盛顿州树工目击UFO捕获麋鹿事件流程 accDescr: 展示12名植树工目击UFO无介质吸走麋鹿并引发MUFON调查的经过 subgraph Sight["突发空中目击"] A["12名工人在山腰植树<br/>山脚有一群麋鹿"] --> B["经典UFO飞临<br/>悬停在其中一只麋鹿上方"] end subgraph Abduction["异常捕获过程"] B --> C["鹿群惊慌四散奔逃<br/>唯独目标麋鹿原地僵直不动"] C --> D["无任何实体光束或吊索介质<br/>麋鹿被凭空垂直吸走消失"] end subgraph Aftermath["调查与群体恐慌"] D --> E["植树工全员恐慌罢工逃离<br/>主管挽留并上报"] E --> F["MUFON 介入逐一独立问讯<br/>口供高度吻合：'我们怕下一个就是自己'"] end ``` 鹿群惊慌四散，唯独那只被锁定的麋鹿僵在原地纹丝不动。紧接着，在飞碟与麋鹿之间没有任何可见实体牵引物的情况下，那只庞大的麋鹿被凭空提拉离地，眨眼间消失得无影无踪。现场全部12名工人当场吓破了胆，大骂一声“去他的，老子不干了”，扔下工具掉头就跑。工程主管急忙赶来安抚，随后紧急联系了互助UFO网络（MUFON）。MUFON 派出调查员对这12名工人进行了背对背独立讯问，所有人给出的证词完全一致，他们直言不讳地表达了终极恐惧：“我们害怕下一个轮到的就是我们自己，它们刚刚带走了麋鹿，接下来就该抓人了。” --- ### [23:36](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=1416s) 卡尔·希格顿奇遇：悬停的子弹、心电感应与神秘自愈 保利德斯紧接着引出了另一起极具代表性的案例——发生在怀俄明州梅迪辛博国家森林（Medicine Bow National Forest）的卡尔·希格顿（Carl Higdon）事件。当时卡尔独自在森林里狩猎，在距自己约100码（约91米）处发现了一群麋鹿。他架好猎枪瞄准开火，就在扣动扳机的一刹那，卡尔感觉周围的一切骤然进入了“超慢动作”状态。他亲眼看着出膛的子弹极其缓慢地向前飞行了大约三四英尺，随后突兀地垂直坠落在地。 卡尔走上前去，惊愕地发现远处的麋鹿全都被冻结在原地一动不动。他俯身捡起落地的子弹装进口袋，此时两个外星生物形态的实体朝他走来，直接通过心电感应（mind speak）与他沟通。随后他们将卡尔和那群宛如时间停滞的麋鹿一同带上了一艘飞行器。在飞船内部，外星生物命令卡尔走到一面屏幕后方进行扫描筛选，随即通过心电感应告知他：“我们不要你，你得回去。”卡尔困惑不解，但对方只是冷冷重复着遣返决定。 下一瞬间，卡尔只记得自己从大约10到15英尺的空中坠落，狠狠摔在山坡上并一路滚了下去，造成肩膀脱臼。当时他的妻子与当地治安官早已组织了搜救队，找到卡尔后立即将他送往医院救治。然而令人震惊的医学奇迹随之出现： - **肺部顽疾消失**：医院拍摄的 X 光片显示，卡尔自童年时期留下的严重肺结核疤痕彻底消失不见。 - **其他隐疾痊愈**：原本困扰他的其他身体病症在此次事件后全部得到了彻底治愈。 - **弹头物理异常**：怀俄明州执法部门（Wyoming DLE）对卡尔带回的那枚子弹进行了物证鉴定，专家们完全无法理解这枚子弹究竟撞击了何种物质，才会形成那种极其特殊的严重形变。 保利德斯在卡尔91岁高龄时对其进行了面对面采访，老人的思维依旧敏锐如昔。当被问及外星人当年为何将他拒收时，卡尔推测可能仅仅是因为自己做过输精管结扎手术（vasectomy）。 --- ### [26:11](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=1571s) 洲际导弹基地关联、离奇坠崖与德裔失踪现象 这桩事件发生的地理位置位于怀俄明州夏延市（Cheyenne）西北约75英里处。保利德斯指出一个关键的时间线巧合：几乎就在卡尔遭遇外星生物的同一时期，驻扎在夏延市的美国空军基地（即部署有洲际弹道导弹 ICBM 的 F.E. Warren 基地）上方，爆发了一连串密集的不明飞行物目击群。这批绝密档案直到三四十年后，才通过研究者罗伯特·黑斯廷斯（Robert Hastings）和多名退役空军军官的解密报告浮出水面，身处荒野深处的卡尔在当年根本不可能知晓军方基地的异动。 这起案例让保利德斯对庞大的失踪卷宗产生了顿悟。在以往的搜救案例中，有大量死者最终被官方判定为“失足坠崖”。然而，任何经常进山的老猎人独自行动时都会打起十二分精神，绝不可能轻易走向悬崖失足；诡异的是，这些人往往在无法追踪足迹的情况下，横尸于极其荒谬的深渊底部。如果将卡尔从高空被外星飞船“丢回地面”的经历代入，那些不可思议的坠亡案瞬间有了一种毛骨悚然的合理解释。 更令人震惊的是随后的地理统计。保利德斯围绕卡尔失踪的事发地画了一个圆圈进行排查，赫然发现当地有一批失踪的猎人全部拥有同一族裔背景——德国后裔（卡尔本人也是德裔）。保利德斯调取了整个数据库进行回溯，证实遭遇离奇绑架和失踪的人群中，德裔人口的比例显著高于普通人群分布。罗根随即联想到二战纳粹时期的神秘学狂热，以及当年纳粹尝试制造碟形飞行器的历史传闻，保利德斯则坦言背后的深层原因目前仍完全无法解释。 --- ### [28:58](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=1738s) 特拉维斯·沃尔顿事件与外星生物学家的“野外科研” 乔·罗根随即提到了著名的特拉维斯·沃尔顿（Travis Walton）林业工人绑架案（罗根的播音室里甚至摆放着沃尔顿的摇头娃娃）。1975年，沃尔顿在森林中被一道强光光束击中后失踪。当时现场有多名伐木工目击证人，其中甚至包括当天早些时候与沃尔顿动拳头打过架的死对头，所有人给出的证词完全一致，并全部通过了测谎仪测试。数天后，沃尔顿完好无损地重新现身，没有严重脱水，也没有濒临饿死，只是精神极度恍惚。沃尔顿描述自己被带上飞船接受了身体检查与修复，随后被重新放回地面。 保利德斯表示自己与沃尔顿私交甚笃，沃尔顿曾特意带着儿子参加保利德斯的讲座，因为两人的研究高度重合。罗根分析道： - **撒谎者的心理特征**：一个撒谎成性的人通常会在生活中对各种琐事说谎，绝不可能在长达几十年的时间里，与多名目击证人一起维持一个细节丝毫不变的离奇故事。 - **缺失“救世主妄想”**：无论是沃尔顿还是其他绑架受害者，他们的口供都有着高度相似的冷峻现实感——接受身体检查、被带上飞行器、遭遇意念沟通。没有任何人声称自己被外星人选为“天选之子”（The Chosen One）或救世主尼奥（Neo），没有任何疯疯癫癫的宏大叙事。 ```mermaid flowchart LR accTitle: 人类野生动物科考与外星绑架模式类比 accDescr: 对比人类学家在刚果丛林研究灵长类动物与外星实体捕获人类标本的流程相似性 subgraph Human["人类科学家的野外研究"] A1["深入刚果丛林追踪"] --> B1["发射麻醉枪制服目标"] B1 --> C1["采集样本 / 测量体征"] C1 --> D1["无害化放归自然栖息地"] end subgraph Extraterrestrial["外星实体的人类取样"] A2["偏远国家公园锁定孤立猎人"] --> B2["力场压制 / 时间冻结"] B2 --> C2["飞船内医学扫描 / 样本筛选"] C2 --> D2["高空低落释放 / 身体不适或痊愈"] end ``` 罗根指出，这种行为模式听起来令人难以置信，但其实与人类研究自然界完全一样： - 就像此刻在刚果盆地的热带雨林里，一定有野生动物学家正在用麻醉枪击倒大猩猩或其他灵长类动物，对其进行生理测量、血液采样、植入追踪标签，随后将其放归自然。 - 外星智慧实体对待人类的态度可能纯粹出于冷酷的生物学标本考察。正如保利德斯在各类公开演讲中所提出的著名反思：“如果人类对于它们而言，只不过是一个巨大的‘蚂蚁农场’呢？” --- ### [32:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=1930s) 宛如撞上钢板的变形子弹 播客制作人杰米（Jamie Vernon）在网络上找到了卡尔·希格顿当年射击变形的那枚弹头现场照片，并投射在演播室大屏幕上。 罗根与保利德斯仔细观察了弹头的形变状态。猎枪子弹在击中动物时，即便打碎坚硬的骨骼，弹头虽然会撕裂扭曲，但也绝不会呈现出眼前这种形态。屏幕上的弹头极其完整地保持着一个整体，但前端却被彻底撞成了一个扁平的圆盘。这种形变特征极其反常，完全就像是出膛的高速子弹正面狠狠撞上了一堵不可摧毁的均质钢板，或者在出膛三英尺的地方撞上了一道肉眼不可见的透明高密度能量屏障，随即直接丧失动能坠落地面。 ### [32:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=1964s) 劫持事件中的马鹿与偏远荒野猎人失踪之谜 大卫·保利德斯（David Paulides）谈到卡尔·希格登（Carl Higdon）被带上不明飞行器后的离奇对话。卡尔当时发现自己的猎物也在飞船上，脱口而出：“嘿，你们把我的马鹿（Elk）抓来了。”对方不仅能直呼其名“卡尔”，还向他解释道，他们经常造访地球带走动物进行研究，借此监测这颗星球的生态与健康状况，而卡尔当时恰好就在现场，于是便被一同带走。保利德斯指出，许多声称遭遇过外星劫持的人都有过类似陈述，外星实体似乎一直在通过动物标本评估地球的生态健康。当被问及这些存有如何与卡尔交流时，保利德斯证实是通过心灵感应进行的。 这引发了乔·罗根（Joe Rogan）与保利德斯关于“为什么外星人偏偏对马鹿感兴趣”的探讨。保利德斯分享了一项在其《Missing 411》系列书中反复提及的异常数据：在全美所有失踪或遭遇疑似劫持的猎人中，猎捕马鹿的人数占比异常之高。全美范围内猎捕普通白尾鹿（White-tailed deer）的猎人基数远大于马鹿猎人，但失踪案件却不成比例地集中在马鹿猎人身上。罗根从资深猎人的角度剖析了这一现象的现实地理因素：白尾鹿大多生活在农田边缘和平原农耕区附近，猎人通常在农场树架（Tree stand）上打猎；相比之下，马鹿生活在极度偏远、山势险峻、人迹罕至的高海拔荒野深处（Backcountry）。如果外星实体为了保持隐秘性、确保行动不被大范围目击，那么深入一万英尺的高山、劫持一个独自追逐鹿群的孤独猎人，显然是风险最小的选择。 - 动物测试现象：多名劫持亲历者称，不明实体带走动物样本是为了监控地球生态环境。 - 猎人失踪异常统计：全美猎鹿人总数远超马鹿猎人，但在无故失踪案例中，马鹿猎人的比例高居榜首。 - 地理与环境差异：白尾鹿多栖息于人类农耕活动周边；而马鹿和黑尾鹿（Mule deer）栖息于极为荒僻的高山深处，为隐秘活动提供了掩护。 --- ### [35:42](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=2142s) “时空冻结”与超越光速的量子纠缠跨星系假想 卡尔·希格登向保利德斯透露的另一个惊人细节是，这些神秘存有拥有操纵并“冻结时空”的能力。在开枪射击马鹿的瞬间，子弹和鹿群仿佛瞬间定格不动，甚至当卡尔被带进飞行器内部时，那头鹿依然保持着被击中前凝固的姿态。保利德斯解释说，这并非简单的动作暂停，而像是将周围一定范围内的时空彻底锁死，使外部的一切无法进入，内部的一切也无法离开。 罗根对此表示，研究超前智慧生物的理论家普遍推测，能够进行星际旅行的文明必然掌握了对时空本身的操控技术，而绝非依赖人类现有的初级推进系统。人类目前的推进机制非常原始粗暴——依靠燃烧燃料向后喷射产生推力，或者使用内燃机在气缸内制造微型爆炸来推动活塞和变速箱。如果文明具备操控时空的能力，它们可以瞬间完成跨维度的跃迁。罗根提到曾有学者假想，宇宙万物或许如同量子纠缠一样本就是互联的整体；如果仅靠常规光速飞行，即便达到两三倍光速，跨越星系也需要数万年，但若能利用量子纠缠操纵时空，瞬间跨越遥远星际便成为可能。 为了形象地说明技术鸿沟带来的认知局限，罗根做了一个生动类比： > “如果你去跟一个15世纪的人讲手机，告诉他：‘嘿，我能跟在澳大利亚的朋友打 FaceTime 视频电话。’他们会说：‘你到底在胡言乱语什么？’你掏出兜里只有几张纸那么薄的设备，隔着屏幕彼此看着对方，画面还是高清无延迟的同步音频——在他们眼里，这纯粹就是魔法。可今天我们早就习以为常，接通电话只是随口一句：‘嘿，最近怎么样？’” 罗根感叹，过去人类沟通必须大声吼叫，隔着一百码还要挥手示意往左走，而现在一个短信即可跨越重洋；那么在数千年的技术革新后，未来的位移与星际旅行完全可能会进化得像如今的信息传输一样瞬息即至。 --- ### [39:59](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=2399s) 意识互联的隐秘网络与皮克斯金沃克牧场的“发光管道”生物 保利德斯顺着量子纠缠的话题进一步发散：人类的意识本身是否也是一张巨大的纠缠网络？他提出设想，哪怕相隔千山万水（比如他在蒙大拿州的白鱼镇，而罗根在德州奥斯汀），或者一人身处月球背面，人类的心智或许天然具备某种远距离同频共振或心智沟通的能力，只是现代科学尚未破解。 保利德斯透露，这种对意识与未知现象交汇点的思考，源于资深调查记者乔治·纳普（George Knapp）的牵线。纳普曾引荐保利德斯与罗伯特·比格洛（Robert Bigelow）在皮克斯金沃克牧场（Skinwalker Ranch）的主管研究员科尔姆·凯莱赫（Colm Kelleher）多次在拉斯维加斯会面。凯莱赫在深入了解保利德斯的研究后指出，牧场近二十年来记录的异象，与保利德斯调查的野外人员神秘失踪案有着深层的重叠。这些现象（无论是劫持、牲畜残害还是不明飞行物）的本质，可能远比“外星人采集精子或卵子”这种人类理性能够构想出的简单目的要深奥和多维得多。 保利德斯转述了凯莱赫亲口讲述的一桩发生在皮克斯金沃克牧场的真实调查事件： - **目击时间与人员**：凌晨两点左右，一名驻场物理学家与另一位研究员守候在山岗上，俯瞰下方的草甸。 - **发光体的演变**：草甸上空先是凭空出现了一团明亮的圆形光芒，随后这团光逐渐膨胀、拉长，在夜视仪的视野中宛如一条悬浮在空中的三维透明管道或虫洞通道。 - **异界生物现身**：两人轮流传递着唯一的一副夜视仪进行观察。当发光管道扩张到足够容纳两人并排爬行的尺寸时，他们震惊地看到内部有一个物体正沿着管道缓缓往外爬行。 - **实体特征**：该生物从管道末端爬出并跳落到草地上。尽管通过夜视仪依然由于光线微弱只能看到黑色剪影，但确认其为一个全黑、身高约七至八英尺（2.1米至2.4米）的双足直立生物。 保利德斯提到，他在自己的纪录片《美国大脚野人：人，神话还是怪物》（*American Sasquatch: Man, Myth or Monster*）片尾收录并还原了这一事件的细节，并在节目现场与罗根核对查找了该纪录片中的相关影像片段。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 皮克斯金沃克牧场虫洞实体事件流程 accDescr: 展示研究员在牧场目击光斑演变成管道并爬出黑色直立生物的事件经过 subgraph Phase1["异常现象出现"] A["凌晨2点 研究员俯瞰草甸"] --> B["草甸出现微小强光团"] B --> C["光斑持续膨胀拉伸"] end subgraph Phase2["时空管道形成"] C --> D["形成三维发光管道结构"] D --> E["管道扩至可容纳大型物体通过"] end subgraph Phase3["未知生物降临"] E --> F["黑色物体自管道内部爬出"] F --> G["跃落草地 显现7-8英尺高双足直立生物黑影"] end ``` ### [43:54](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=2634s) 异次元传送门假说与大脚怪的目击谜团 David Paulides 提到了自己对科勒（Keller）的采访内容。科勒描述当时亲眼目睹那个生物出现，随后用双足直立行走离开。讨论到这一幕时，他直言：“这在我们看来根本讲不通。”（"Doesn't make any sense to us."）人们不得不猜测，这是否是一个时空传送门开启，有异次元生物爬入了人类的维度？那里是否就是它们出入的通道，并且它们可以随心所欲地随时开启或关闭？Paulides 表示，这是他第一次从一个极其可靠的人口中听到这种异次元可能性的描述。如今在皮斯金沃克牧场（Skinwalker Ranch）研究的人可能会反驳称，开启一个虫洞或传送门所需的能量要比原子弹爆发高出无数倍，因此这在物理上难以成立。但 Paulides 认为，对方对所谓“传送门”的认知或许完全不同，而目击者看到的现象确实超出了常规认知。 Joe Rogan 顺着话题指出，大脚怪（Bigfoot / Sasquatch）的存在本身就充满谜团。其中一个最值得深思的现象是：北美原住民的文化中其实并没有海量虚构的神话生物，他们并没有各种龙、恶魔、小精灵（pixies）或树妖森林仙子（wood sprites），但全美各地的原住民却为大脚怪取了超过 50 个不同的名字，并且所有部落对其特征的描述高度统一——一种身高 8 到 10 英尺、浑身长毛、直立双足行走的类猿生物。全球各地的目击者谈论的也从来不是长了六条腿的大象这类稀奇古怪的生物，大家看到并反复描述的，始终是同一种双足直立的人形物种（bipedal hominids）。 ### [45:58](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=2758s) 影像伪造、森林心理状态与类外星人绑架叙事 Joe Rogan 坦言自己从未见过真正有说服力的大脚怪影像记录，甚至认为著名的帕特森-吉姆林录像（Patterson-Glimlin film）纯属无稽之谈，很明显是有人套了一件猴子皮套演出来的。绝大部分照片证据也站不住脚，但民间的目击叙事实在太多了，让人无法完全将其一笔抹杀。Rogan 猜测这是否可能是一种跨维度的体验（interdimensional experience），又或者是因为人们置身于深山老林时，神经高度紧绷、警觉甚至陷入恐慌，在那种极为异常的心理状态下遭遇了完全无法理解的事情。 从理性或怀疑论的角度看，人们也许会认为这是一种文化原型（archetype）的投射——因为世世代代都在讲这个故事，导致进入森林后产生了期待，甚至可能只是把偶尔双足直立行走的黑熊看错了。但目击者的描述从来不像黑熊，而是长着长臂、目光与人类对视的巨猿，出没在杳无人烟的密林深处。这种故事结构与 UFO 外星人绑架事件极为相似，在不同人身上一再重演。Rogan 强调，即便排除掉那些嗑药（蘑菇）、吃精神类药物或精神错乱制造的荒唐故事，哪怕成千上万起案例中只有百分之一是真实的，背后隐藏的真相也足以令人震撼。 ### [48:25](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=2905s) 步态争议与巨猿（Gigantopithecus）化石记录 Paulides 强调，大脚怪绝不是普通的猿猴或大猩猩，否则动物园早就抓来展出了；它们的步态完全像人类一样直立行走，而现存灵长类动物并非如此。Rogan 随即提出疑问，远古灭绝的步氏巨猿（Gigantopithecus）是否也是双足行走的？二人当场借助 AI 工具 Perplexity 进行了求证核实。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 巨猿化石证据与大脚怪假说对比 accDescr: 展示学术界对巨猿的化石证据与大脚怪爱好者双足行走推论的差异 subgraph FossilEvidence["古生物学硬证据"] A["中国中药铺首次发现巨大臼齿"] --> B["百年来仅出土数块下颌骨与牙齿化石"] B --> C["完全缺失骨盆、股骨及躯干骨骼"] end subgraph ScientificView["主流科学界共识"] C --> D["基于现存近亲（红毛猩猩）形态比对"] D --> E["巨猿为生活在亚洲丛林的四足大型猿类"] end subgraph SpeculativeView["大脚怪爱好者推论"] C --> F["仅凭下颌构造进行推测性重建"] F --> G["主张白令陆桥迁徙与双足行走假说"] G -.->|缺乏化石支撑，遭古人类学家否定| E end ``` 根据 Perplexity 检索的信息以及两人的讨论，关于巨猿与大脚怪的联系存在以下事实： - **化石发现**：巨猿的化石最初是人类学家不到一百年前在中国的药材铺里发现的巨大灵长类臼齿，迄今为止出土的化石仅限于下颌骨与牙齿，从未发现过骨盆、腿骨或完整的全身骨架。 - **运动方式推测**：主流古人类学家比对巨猿与现存大型猿类（特别是红毛猩猩）的亲缘关系后一致认定，巨猿是体型庞大的四足行走丛林动物，双足行走的说法仅由少数研究者和大脚怪爱好者通过下颌骨形状推测而来，缺乏实际骨骼支持。 - **地理与环境差异**：巨猿属于亚洲热带雨林生物，北美大陆从未发现过其实体化石。虽然有人假设它们可能在冰河时期沿露出海面的白令陆桥（Bering Land Bridge）追随短面熊与早期人类迁徙至阿拉斯加和太平洋西北部，但这一假说缺乏实证。 - **化石记录的稀缺**：Rogan 指出，自然界中能形成化石的生物凤毛麟角，化石记录极不完整，因此地球历史上完全可能存在过长满体毛、体型庞大且双足行走的古人类或直立类人猿，只是未能留下化石。 ### [52:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=3140s) 德州东部的异常分布与两位富豪的秘密委托 话题转向大脚怪目击的地理分布。Paulides 提到除了阿拉斯加和太平洋西北地区（Pacific Northwest）等传统森林高发区外，德克萨斯州东部（East Texas）也是目击报告极多的热点区域。那里的地形多为泥泞潮湿的沼泽和湿地，靠近沿海和边界地区。此外，田纳西州和肯塔基州同样有大量目击案例——Rogan 借机打趣称那里不仅目击多，私酿烈酒（moonshine）和吸食冰毒（crank）的人也同样多。 随后，Paulides 讲述了自己当初深入调查大脚怪现象的契机： - 他从警队退役后获得了人力资源专业的硕士学位，随后进入科技行业掌管 HR 部门，工作了五到七年。 - 当他因孩子尚幼打算辞职陪伴家人享受生活时，该公司的两位超级富豪联合创始人找到了他。 - 两位创始人开出了极其优厚、完全不限工作进度和节奏的条件，委托他调查大脚怪。 - 原因在于这两位富豪年轻时互不相识，分别在不同地区与家人在野外背包露营；两人竟然都在半夜出帐篷小解时，各自独立目击到了大脚怪，这段亲身经历促使他们决定出资探寻真相。 ### [55:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=3300s) 接受资助展开调查与大雾山诱捕毛发 大卫·保利德斯（David Paulides）回忆起自己涉足大脚怪（Bigfoot / Sasquatch）调查的契机。当时有两位商人合伙创立公司赚了数百万美元，某次共进午餐时，两人偶然发现彼此都经历过不可思议的大脚怪目击事件，便下定决心要弄清真相。得知保利德斯具有执法调查背景后，他们主动提出全额资助，希望雇佣他去查证大脚怪传闻究竟是真、是假还是恶作剧。起初保利德斯坚决拒绝，对方连续找了他四五次；直到一年后，他遭遇离婚变故，仅剩50%的子女监护权，有了大量空闲时间，对方再次找上门来，他终于答应接下这项调查。 保利德斯在田纳西州的大雾山国家公园（Great Smoky Mountains National Park）展开工作，当地一位名叫斯科特·卡彭特（Scott Carpenter，现已离世）的研究者带他进入经常发现脚印与未知毛发的核心区域。为了采集到连带毛囊的优质 DNA 样本，保利德斯借鉴了野生动物部门采集熊类样本的做法：将强力封箱胶带反向（黏性朝外）缠绕在树干上，并在树杈处放置蜂蜜等食物作为诱饵。只要生物靠近蹭树，就会被胶带粘下带有毛囊的毛发。该方法成效显著，他们成功在有神秘足迹的区域采集到了未知毛发样本。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 毛发采集与初筛流程 accDescr: 展示保利德斯团队在国家公园采集毛发并由法医专家初筛的过程。 A["大雾山国家公园目击点"] --> B["树干反向缠绕封箱胶带 + 放置诱饵"] B --> C["未知生物蹭树留下带毛囊毛发"] C --> D["送交法医毛发与纤维专家检验"] D --> E{"比对现有已知物种分类"} E -->|"未见分类 / 无法匹配"| F["确认为未知生物样本，推进 DNA 分析"] ``` - 毛发与纤维专家在法庭具有极高公信力，通常能在两分钟内通过显微特征区分出绝大多数已知动物的毛发。 - 专家检验这些采集到的毛发后惊愕地表示，显微镜下的结构此前从未见过，在已知动物分类库中根本不存在。 --- ### [57:42](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=3462s) 样本碰壁与梅尔芭·凯彻姆的基因测序研究 拿到具备毛囊的样本后，保利德斯试图联系权威学术机构进行 DNA 测序。他首先致电当时居住地附近的加利福尼亚大学戴维斯分校（UC Davis）——该校拥有全球顶尖的动物基因实验室，但对方一听与“大脚怪”有关，便立刻回绝，拒绝沾染任何争议。随后他又联系了得克萨斯大学等六七家主流大学实验室，均遭到冷遇。最终，他联系到一位曾多次作为法庭 DNA 专家证人出庭的学者——梅尔芭·凯彻姆博士（Dr. Melba Ketchum）。在确认背后有金主全额承担高昂测试费用后，凯彻姆博士同意接手，并先由其团队的毛发专家核实了毛发的异常性。 为了获取更广泛的统计样本，保利德斯做客知名深夜广播节目《Coast to Coast AM》，面向全美听众公开征集疑似大脚怪毛发，并严正警告切勿伪造作假。听众寄来的大量样本经过严格初筛，剔除了鹿、羚羊、熊等已知物种后，锁定了 125 份高度异常且有效的样本送入实验室。整个基因检测最终耗费约 40 万美元。检测涉及两种关键遗传物质：毛发轴本身仅能提供母系遗传的线粒体 DNA（mtDNA），而要分析父系遗传则必须依赖带有毛囊或来自血液、组织与唾液的细胞核 DNA（nuclear DNA）。 --- ### [59:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=3588s) 惊人的测序结果与基因库“不存在”的父系 DNA 凯彻姆博士团队的检测结果呈现出极度诡异的断层：在线粒体 DNA（母系）方面，样本能够清晰追溯至 1.2 万至 1.5 万年前的中东现代人类谱系；但在细胞核 DNA（父系）方面，其序列在包含 3520 亿对碱基的国际基因库（GenBank）中完全无法匹配，父系基因在现有生命演化数据库中根本不存在。保利德斯补充指出，研究拉美长头骨（elongated skulls）的独立学者 L.A. 马祖利（L.A. Marzulli）和罗恩·莫尔黑德（Ron Morehead）后续也曾声称，他们在长头骨的遗传学研究中同样遇到了母系可辨、父系无法溯源的奇特现象。 乔·罗根（Joe Rogan）对“追溯至中东”的定性提出质疑。保利德斯提到很多人借此联想到中东与各大宗教起源的关联，罗根则犀利指出，DNA 追溯到某一地理区域仅代表当时的生物地理分布，当时中东同样繁衍着各类世俗动物，地理起源并不能直接推导出宗教神学意义。 - 凯彻姆的研究声称采集了来自北美 34 个地点的样本，展现出“人类母系线粒体 DNA + 全新未知灵长类雄性细胞核 DNA”的嵌合现象。 - 其推论认为：约 1.5 万年前，一种未知的人族（hominin）雄性群体与现代人类雌性杂交，繁衍出了现存的大脚怪种群。 --- ### [01:03:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=3780s) 主流科学界的质疑与争议交锋 罗根在节目现场让制作人杰米（Jamie）调出主流科学界对凯彻姆研究的调查与评估报告。资料显示，凯彻姆的研究并未发表在主流同行评审期刊上，而是刊登在她本人实际控制的冷门在线出版物《DeNovo Scientific Journal》上，且下载阅读需付费，缺乏公开透明的同行评审机制，也没有任何独立第三方实验室成功复现其结果。法医生物学家和主流遗传学者在审查其公开数据后指出，所谓“纯人类线粒体 DNA 搭配奇异核 DNA”正是典型样本受到人类环境污染、测序技术错误或劣质 DNA 降解的产物，主流学界普遍将该论文归类为存在严重实验缺陷的“伪科学 / 垃圾科学”。 面对主流学界“污染论”的反驳，保利德斯提出了自己的质疑逻辑：如果样本仅仅是采集者或实验人员造成的现代人类 DNA 污染，那么检测出的父系基因应当直接指向具体的人类族裔（例如他本人的父亲是俄罗斯裔，若他污染了样本，核 DNA 理应测出俄罗斯人类特征），而不应呈现出“与 GenBank 数千亿碱基全不匹配、根本不存在对应物种”的空白状态。罗根对此保持审慎，坦言自己并非遗传学家，严谨的遗传学专家或许能从混合降解与测序伪影的角度给出合理解释，但人类在远古时期与其他古人类物种发生杂交繁衍本身在演化史上早已被证实并非天方夜谭。 ### [01:05:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=3930s) 俄罗斯科学院的研究与大脚怪的“人类杂交”说 谈话从人类演化史的假说切入。此前科学界普遍认为尼安德特人是与智人杂交的亚种人类，但近期部分学者提出一种全新猜测：尼安德特人本身可能就是人类与某种更古老的原始人类杂交出来的产物。大卫·保利德斯（David Paulides）随即指出，全球历史上真正严肃对待类似生物学谜题的国家只有一个，那就是苏联/俄罗斯。大约四十年前，俄罗斯科学院挑选了顶尖的五位科学家，专门对高加索等地的神秘生物“阿尔马斯蒂”（Almasti，即俄罗斯版本的大脚怪）展开深入研究。 保利德斯回忆起七八年前在科罗拉多州参加的一场研讨会。当时有两位参与过该项目的俄罗斯科学家来到美国，其中一人拿着保利德斯的专著走过来对他说：“戴夫，在所有这些人里面，你是唯一一个说实话的人。你关于 DNA 和血统的论述 100% 属实，与我们的研究发现完全吻合。我们很清楚它们绝不是任何普通的猿类或猩猩，而是一种人们无法理解的人类杂交体（Human hybrid）。”俄罗斯学者坚信这种生物至今依然存在于世。 - **尼安德特人新假说**：并非纯粹的智人旁支，而是智人与未知远古古人类交配杂交所诞生。 - **俄罗斯科学界行动**：40 年前由俄罗斯科学院五位顶尖科学家带头立项，专门调查阿尔马斯蒂。 - **俄罗斯学者的定性**：否定其为普通巨猿或黑猩猩近亲，明确将其定性为拥有独特遗传结构的人类杂交体。 --- ### [01:07:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=4030s) 跨维度存有与“凭空消散”的影像记录 面对罗根关于“如此庞大的生物究竟如何隐藏自身”的质疑，保利德斯提出了更大胆的维度跳跃理论。如果大脚怪由某种远超人类认知的智慧存在通过操控 DNA 所创造，那么它来自更高维度的可能性在科学逻辑上甚至比纯粹的地球本土有机物更为合理。这种跨维度的穿梭能力，正好解释了为何百年来人类从未找到过完整的尸体或骨骼遗骸——它就像犹他州皮克斯金沃克牧场（Skinwalker Ranch）报告的那样，能够随意出入空间通道或能量管道。 保利德斯提及他的新纪录片《美国大脚怪》（*American Sasquatch*）中收录的一段离奇画面。这段由研究员斯科特·卡彭特（Scott Carpenter）在过去十年间拍摄的林间录像显示，林道尽头原本只有一团类似烟雾的气流，但随后烟雾逐渐凝结凝聚，化作一个具备大脚怪完整体态轮廓的实体，随即又消散于无形。罗根总结道，这意味着人们面对的并非普通的生物学物种，而是一种可能被先进文明制造、能够以人类无法理解的物理机制隐现穿梭的现象。 ```mermaid flowchart LR accTitle: 大脚怪跨维度假说机制图 accDescr: 展示高级生命操纵DNA制造杂交体并利用跨维度物理机制解释大脚怪难寻尸骸的假说逻辑。 subgraph Origin["起源与制造"] A["高级智慧文明"] --> B["操纵 DNA 序列"] B --> C["创造高智力杂交体"] end subgraph Manifestation["现象与表现"] C --> D["跨维度穿梭 / 空间隧道"] D --> E["烟雾状显现与凭空消散"] D --> F["物理世界未留存骨骼遗骸"] end ``` --- ### [01:09:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=4140s) 真皮嵴足印争议与凯彻姆博士的 DNA 风波 罗根开玩笑地表示自己得“戴紧锡箔帽”（Tinfoil hat）来讨论这些玄奥理论，但他承认这一假说确实能说通为什么目击无数却毫无骨骼遗骸留存。对于地面足印，罗根指出许多人认为可以人工伪造，但法医层面的“真皮嵴”（Dermal ridges）却极难做假——部分数十年前采集的足印拓模上带有类似人类指纹的微观摩擦嵴纹理。要伪造这种纹理，不仅需要高超的材料学造诣，造假工具还得承受足足七百磅（约 318 公斤）以上的重量深深压入泥泞中，普通两百磅体重的成年人根本无法模拟这种足底压强与滑移痕迹。 在 DNA 检测的科学公信力上，保利德斯为梅尔巴·凯彻姆博士（Dr. Melba Ketchum）备受攻击的论文进行了辩护。他指出凯彻姆博士将提取的样本送往德克萨斯大学等四家独立认证实验室进行盲测，所有实验室都跑出了相同的序列结果，最终由六位博士共同撰写了白皮书。保利德斯还透露了大脚怪研究组织（BFRO）背后鲜为人知的赞助人内幕： - **巨额赞助人的撤资**：富商沃利·赫尔萨姆（Wally Hersam）曾资助 BFRO 数百万美元，唯一要求就是找到确凿的 DNA 证据；然而该组织历经十余年一无所获。 - **一年破局**：保利德斯等人在不到一年内便取得了样本。赫尔萨姆亲自飞来查看凯彻姆博士的数据后表示：“你们证明了我一直想要知道的真相”，随后彻底终止了对圈内的所有资助并抽身离去。 - **学术壁垒与质疑**：外界实验室往往以样本污染或发表期刊设在付费墙后为由抨击其研究，但主流名牌实验室自身却无人愿意以相同样本与对照流程复现这一实验。 --- ### [01:13:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=4396s) 红外感知、搭车者效应与皮克斯金沃克牧场的遭遇 罗根提出猎人布设的大量野外红外追踪相机（Trail cameras）为何从未抓拍到清晰影像。保利德斯推测这些生物可能具备观察红外光谱波段的视觉能力，从而主动避开侦测；罗根也补充道，世人因其浑身长毛就默认其原始野蛮，但对方很可能拥有远超灵长类的心智或精神感知能力，一眼就能识别出摄像装置。 随后保利德斯提到了著名的“搭车者效应”（Hitchhiker Effect）。在皮克斯金沃克牧场，许多调查人员撤离返家后，超自然实体并未直接纠缠科学家本人，反而尾随他们回到家中，对他们的妻子和孩子造成骚扰，制造诸如光团穿梭、人影浮现甚至在院子里追逐儿童等怪事。保利德斯指出，深入研究大脚怪的资深学者中也高频出现这种效应。他以自身经历举例：他住在偏远林区边缘，某天在屋后满是泥泞的小径正中央发现了一个巨大的 17 英寸足印，然而前后周围完全没有任何迈步走过来的延续脚印，“仅有孤零零的一只脚印踩在烂泥里”。他在电影中采访的七八位顶尖调查员，全都有过这种被莫名异象尾随的毛骨悚然经历。 罗根对此感同身受。数年前他与好友邓肯·特鲁塞尔（Duncan Trussell）为 Syfy 频道录制节目《乔·罗根质疑一切》（*Joe Rogan Questions Everything*）时曾亲自前往皮克斯金沃克牧场。罗根直言当地很多人满嘴胡话，但有一位态度极其沉稳严谨的常驻人员绝非编造者；那人虽然不轻易讲怪力乱神的故事，但曾亲眼目睹发光光球闯入其居住空间，其真实的震撼感令人无法轻易当成谎言一笑了之。 ### [01:16:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=4569s) 穿墙而入的光球与纳瓦霍游骑兵的神秘任务 乔·罗根与大卫·保利德斯继续探讨超自然现象。罗根提到一个令人费解的案例：一位平时极其理性、从事普通工作、从不编造怪异故事的普通人，遇到了一件完全无法用常理解释的事。一个大约垒球大小（甚至略大一些）的发光光球（orb）竟然直接穿透了他家的墙壁飞入室内，在空中短暂停滞并似乎在与他产生某种互动，随后瞬间加速飞离。 承接这个话题，保利德斯分享了他在拍摄纪录片时采访的一位前纳瓦霍游骑兵（Navajo Ranger）。该队员受过联邦执法训练中心（FLETC）的正规高阶执法训练，具备完整的执法资质且极其聪明。在为纳瓦霍游骑兵服务了十到十五年后，一天副队长把他和搭档叫进办公室，下达了一项匪夷所思的新任务——专职调查大脚怪（Bigfoot）与 UFO。 游骑兵当时极力抗拒，抗议称“等等，我可没报名干这个”，但长官强硬地表示：“我不管，这就是你们的新工作，因为你们是我手下最具公信力、最可靠的两个人。”之所以设立该专项，是因为当地居民频繁报警，报告大脚怪侵入领地、发光不明飞行物在低空盘旋，局里急需具备专业侦查能力的资深警官进行系统性排查。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 纳瓦霍游骑兵调查异常事件工作流 accDescr: 展示从居民报警到资深执法人员介入调查大脚怪与UFO关联的完整过程 subgraph Dispatch["报案与指派"] A["居民频报异常事件<br/>(大脚怪出没 / 低空UFO)"] --> B["警局高层指派核心骨干<br/>(FLETC认证资深游骑兵)"] end subgraph Investigation["现场实证勘验"] B --> C["后院痕迹追踪"] C --> D["单线直列足迹<br/>(类似酒驾平衡线测试)"] C --> E["超深地面压痕<br/>(推定体重数百磅)"] end subgraph Conclusion["认知演变"] D & E --> F["跨越数年的独立调查"] F --> G["确立大脚怪与UFO的强相关性"] end ``` ### [01:18:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=4680s) 直线行走的足迹与非动物属性的土著信仰 在这两位专业游骑兵开展独立调查的数年里，遇到了许多颠覆认知的现象。一次，一名妇女惊恐报警称大脚怪刚刚穿过了她的后廊，家里的狗吓得全部缩在门廊底下不敢出来。游骑兵赶到现场勘查时，发现了极其独特的足迹。普通人行走时双脚会呈交替的外展与晃动，而大脚怪的足迹却呈现出绝对笔直的一条直线——一只脚恰好踏在另一只脚的正前方。罗根打趣形容这走法就像是“在接受警方的酒驾平衡测试”（DUI checkpoint）或是走平衡木。此外，脚印的步幅达到了惊人的四到五英尺，泥土被深深踩入地面，显示出施压者的体重达数百磅，常人根本无法伪造。 随着调查深入，这两位警官独立地将大脚怪与 UFO 关联起来。保利德斯指出，北美原住民各部落的传说惊人地一致：虽然各部落对这种生物有不同的称呼，但没有任何一个部落将其视为单纯的野兽或动物。他们坚定地认为这是一种“源自群星”（came from the stars）的同源人类分支。 保利德斯引用了 1920 至 1930 年代太平洋西北地区的一起著名历史事件：当时数名行人在林间小径被大脚怪投掷石块驱赶，当地治安官扬言要带队进山“将其全部射杀”。令人震惊的是，太平洋西北地区的三个原住民部落随即联合召开了正式的新闻发布会，该声明直接登上了《俄勒冈人报》（The Oregonian）的头版头条。部落代表在发布会上公开警告不得伤害他们，强调它们不是猿猴，而是具有智慧的同类部族，原住民甚至长期与它们进行物资交换——用饰品或罕见食物交换对方提供的野味肉类。保利德斯感叹，主流大脚怪研究者大多刻意忽略这篇历史报道，因为这动摇了“大脚怪只是未知大型灵长类动物”的固有假说。 ### [01:21:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=4872s) 降落的明月与“小矮人”传说 谈及大脚怪究竟如何到达地球，保利德斯讲述了一则刊登在 1885 年报纸上的奇特历史记载。一名在加州与俄勒冈边境（克雷森特城以北）放牧牛群过冬的牧场主，每年都会在当地原住民领地驻留。某年，他连续两天看到一名原住民端着盛满食物的托盘走向深山绝壁。当他向对方询问时，原住民三缄其口。牧场主直接去质问酋长，酋长坦率相告：“我们在上面照顾‘哈利’（Harry）。” 酋长解释道，每隔几个月天上就会降下一个极度明亮的“月亮”（moon），靠近地面悬停，随后通常会有两个高大身影从“月亮”中跳出并奔入树林。这些生物对原住民十分友好，原住民常年与它们和平共处并在岩壁处为它们提供食物。保利德斯分析指出，在 1885 年的历史语境下，缺乏现代科学词汇的原住民描述一个从天而降的发光球体，除了用“月亮”之外根本没有其他词汇可以表达。 罗根表示，面对这种传闻，自己理性的一面本能地会感到荒谬，但不可忽视的是，成千上万互不相识的人却跨越时空目睹了极其相似的景象。更引人深思的是，美洲原住民的民俗中并没有龙等天马行空的虚构神兽，却普遍存在对高大毛人以及“小矮人”（Little People）的系统记载。 - 1885 年牧场主目击报告：原住民将不明发光飞行器描述为“落地的明月”，高大生物从中走出。 - 原住民“小矮人”传说：体型仅三英尺左右，外貌类似侏儒，在北美土著传说中具有广泛知名度。 ### [01:23:56](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=5036s) 见小人菌：致幻蘑菇带来的全员一致幻觉 当保利德斯提到身高仅约三英尺的“小矮人”时，罗根立刻联想到了神经生物学与致幻剂的神秘关联。罗根指出，人在摄入特定致幻蘑菇时也会看到类似的小矮人或“古老传说中的小精灵”。他让制作人杰米（Jamie）当场检索一篇近期发表的科学报道：世界上存在一种非常奇特的野生食用菌，当人们因烹饪不当发生中毒时，所有人都会产生极其统一、具体的具象幻觉——看到成群结队的小矮人。 罗根朗读了这篇引人注目的医学报告：在中国云南省的一家医院，医生们每年都会接诊大量出现奇特症状的患者。这些病人惊慌地报告称，他们看到了“只有品脱大小的精灵般小人”（pint-sized elf-like figures）在门底下列队行进、攀爬水井甚至附着在家居表面。这类案例每年多达数百起，罪魁祸首是一种与松树共生的蘑菇——兰茂牛肝菌（学名：*Lanmaoa asiatica*，俗称“见手青”或小人菌）。 - 兰茂牛肝菌特性：主要分布于中国云南等地的松林中，富含浓郁的鲜味（umami），是每年 6 至 8 月野生菌上市旺季极受欢迎的盘中美味。 - 中毒机制与奇观：只要充分高温烹熟便可安全食用；一旦烹饪欠熟或生食，其中尚未完全阐明的致幻成分便会引发强烈幻视，让不同背景的食客集体目睹数以百计的小人游走。 - 罗根调侃这种现象的诡异之处：即便现代医学将其归类为神经毒素诱发的幻觉，但如果所有摄入者在毫无心理暗示的情况下都能“看到一模一样的小人世界”，这背后的感知机制本身就足够令人震惊，他甚至开玩笑说“既然能看到精灵，干嘛还要煮熟它”。 ### [01:26:19](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=5179s) 迷幻真菌之谜与原住民传说中的“小矮人” 乔·罗根（Joe Rogan）援引真菌学家、真菌联合会（Fungi Federation）创始人朱利亚娜·菲（Giuliana Furci）的观点，提到长期以来许多人都在寻找某种神秘真菌物种却始终未果。研究人员唐·瑙尔（Dom Nauer）正致力于解开这一长达数十年的真菌之谜，试图找出导致此类异常一致幻觉的未知化合物，并探讨它对人类大脑机制的潜在启示。罗根随即抛出一个更深层的疑问：这种化合物究竟是在教导我们关于人类大脑的某种机制，还是在替我们打开视界，让人类得以看见一直存在于周围的真实事物？ 罗根接着查阅了 Perplexity 上的相关资料，指出在世界各地的许多原住民部落文化中，对“小矮人”（Little People）都有特定的本土称呼，英语中的“little people”不过是个笼统的统称。例如： - 切罗基人（Cherokee）称之为“尤尼·苏农代”（Yunwi Tsunsdi'），普遍被翻译为林中小人。 - 乔克托人（Choctaw）有关于森林隐居小矮人的传说，称其为“卡维·阿努阿夏”（Kawi Anukwasha，意为林中居者）。 - 奇克索人（Chickasaw）同样有着对具有超自然能力的小矮人（小生灵）的信仰，在传说中，这类小生灵常与提供玉米和草药等治愈力量紧密相连。 ### [01:28:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=5290s) 毒蝇伞与圣诞老人的起源神话 罗根指出，数不胜数服用致幻真菌的人都曾报告过看见小人或小精灵（elves）的经历，而这正是圣诞老人传说深处的一个核心谜团。他提到了毒蝇伞（*Amanita muscaria*）与圣诞老人之间的惊人联系：如果去翻看世纪之交（19世纪末至20世纪初）的老式圣诞艺术明信片，画面中随处可见鲜红带白点的毒蝇伞以及一群忙碌的小精灵。现代人很难理解为什么一个充满狂欢与祝福的基督教节日会与一种广为人知的致幻真菌紧密捆绑，且这些古老图像如今几乎被主流叙事所遗忘。 此外，圣诞老人本人的标志性外形也与毒蝇伞如出一辙——身穿带有白色翻边袖口、白色大纽扣的鲜红外套，完美对应着红底白斑的毒蝇伞菌盖。在两人一边浏览网上检索出的复古艺术品一边讨论时，大卫·保利德斯（David Paulides）和罗根都注意到，有些图片是现代人在 Etsy 上二次创作的产物，但那些真正具有历史年代感的老明信片上，确实清晰地描绘着小精灵们搬运或簇拥着巨大致幻真菌的奇异景象。这再度引发出同一个根本性问题：致幻成分究竟是制造了虚幻的视觉偏差，还是把常态下被大脑过滤掉的真实维度呈现了出来？ ### [01:30:41](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=5441s) 大脚怪现象与“模拟世界”的假说 话题由林中小人顺理成章地延伸到了大脚怪（Bigfoot）。罗根探讨了为何许多人在森林里摄入致幻真菌后也会宣称看到大脚怪。他坦言自己对大脚怪的态度一直在两极之间拉扯：理智的自我总想嗤之以鼻，斥之为一派胡言；但另一半意识又不得不承认，目击报告实在太普遍了，有太多完全不相干的人在不同时间和地点目击到完全相同的特征，不可能所有人不是疯子就是骗子。 面对“为什么从未发现过大脚怪尸体”的质疑，罗根推测它也许根本不是我们常规认知里的物质生物，可能源自其他维度或空间，因此无法像研究普通树懒那样用传统的生物学框架去量化与归类。保利德斯对此分享了一种关于“模拟世界”（Simulation Theory）的观点：一些人认为人类生活在一个庞大的模拟程序中，就像游戏里积攒了足够的金币就能解锁并向地图里空投一个全新实体来戏弄玩家一样。现实世界仿佛也在遵循类似机制——吃了特定的真菌，眼前就会爬出小人；或者冷不防在林间道路上投下一只大脚怪，看看当事人的血压会飙升到什么地步。 ### [01:32:31](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=5551s) 量子现实、意识接收器与时间倒流 罗根进一步探讨了物质世界的荒诞本质。人类依据生活经历和他人灌输的常识，将周遭事物归类为“真实”与“虚幻”，但前沿科学揭示的微观世界本身就像是“纯粹的魔法”： - 原子内部绝大多数都是虚无的空间，物质不过是以不同奇特方式凝聚的高浓度能量。 - 亚原子粒子可以在虚空中倏忽出现又凭空消失，无人知晓它们去了哪里；它们能在同一时间既运动又保持静止，处于奇妙的量子叠加态（Superposition）。 - “观察者效应”（Observer Effect）表明，当人类去观察和测量粒子时，它们的行为会随之发生不可思议的改变。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 现实本质与意识过滤模型 accDescr: 展示人类大脑如何像收音机一样调频意识，致幻剂与观察者效应如何改变对现实维度的感知。 subgraph QuantumReality["微观与高维现实"] A["量子基底 / 叠加态<br/>（空无空间与凝聚能量）"] B["未被过滤的高维实体<br/>（小精灵 / 小矮人 / 异度存在）"] end subgraph PerceptionFilter["人类感知过滤机制"] C["人类大脑<br/>（意识调频收音机）"] D["常规现实认知<br/>（日常物质世界）"] E["致幻诱导剂<br/>（真菌 / DMT / Ayahuasca）"] end A -->|"观察者效应介入"| D B -.->|"常规状态下被屏蔽"| C C -->|"受限天线输出"| D E -->|"改变接收频率 / 溶解自我"| C C -->|"突破过滤视界"| B ``` 罗根提到，甚至有量子物理学家通过严谨研究指出，观察者效应在某种形式上能够逆向影响过去的粒子状态。这引出了一连串深刻的哲学反思：如果人类能影响过去，这种影响的跨度究竟有多大？是一毫秒还是更久？整个现实世界是否本身就是柔韧可塑的，完全取决于意识本身？如果意识不是大脑颅骨里的一团脑灰质，而是一种弥漫的信号，那么大脑充其量只是一台“收音机”。是收音机硬件的局限性把世界塑造成了眼前的模样；而摄入致幻真菌就像是在调整收音机的接收频段，使人们接收到了原本接收不到的信息。 ### [01:35:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=5717s) 葛ahuasca、DMT 与向罗根竖中指的小丑 保利德斯提到，最近有位朋友力邀他一起去体验葛ahuasca（死藤水，Ayahuasca），朋友已体验过多次，并称它能打开心灵、让人看到清醒时绝不可能见到的超现实真相，甚至多次在幻觉中清晰目睹完全一致的复现事物。保利德斯随即询问罗根是否有过类似经历。 罗根表示自己从未尝试过口服的葛ahuasca，但他体验过其口服活性成分——DMT（二甲基色胺）。在谈及体验时，罗根强调： - 他的 DMT 体验非常积极，虽然极其不可思议，但那种感知状态“感觉比现实本身还要真实”。 - 在那种状态下，当事人百分之百会觉得自己是在与某些具有自主意识的生命实体沟通，这些实体往往呈现为有生命的、不断变幻的几何图案。 - 罗根分享了一个极具戏剧性的个人轶事：他曾多次在恍惚中遇到外形类似“小丑”（Jesters）的实体。那些小丑对着他直截了当地竖起中指，骂出一句“去你的（Fuck you）”，借此嘲弄他平时把自我（ego）看得太重、活得过于严肃。当罗根在心中恍然大悟“哦，我懂你们的意思了”时，那些小丑便回应以“算你聪明”的态度，用一种戏谑而直白的方式点醒了他。 ### [01:36:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=5792s) DMT 的超现实体验与意识图谱绘制 谈话从对迷幻体验的心理要求切入。乔·罗根（Joe Rogan）指出，经历这种体验必须非常谨慎，因为如果一个人是“控制狂”、无法彻底放手，就很可能会精神失常。对于本身现实感就脆弱、患有精神疾病的人群，这种体验绝对不推荐；但若一个人心智健全、理性沉着并且能够坦然顺应，这将是一场极其狂野的旅程。罗根认为，这种现象不应被列为非法，反而极需科学界去深入研究和理解。 罗根提到最近做客节目的学者安德鲁·加利莫尔（Andrew Gallimore）。加利莫尔在一个该类物质合法的国家设立了研究项目，开展长达约五小时的静脉注射（IV）DMT 体验。令人震惊的是，受试者在体验中普遍遭遇了极其相似的场所、同类的智慧实体以及相仿的几何图案，彼此带回来的见闻具有高度的一致性，就如同不同的人在共同绘制一张未知维度的“疆域地图”。更关键的是，他们对这种状态的描述如出一辙——“感觉比现实本身还要真实”。在那种对比下，日常生活所感知的现实显得极其暗淡、模糊、软绵无力且缺乏质感；而在 DMT 的境域中，一切都异常鲜明，色彩耀眼至极，遭遇的实体所带来的震撼力远远凌驾于普通的日常清醒意识之上。 - 参与长程静脉注射 DMT 实验的受试者，在持续数小时的状态中汇报出高度重合的视觉元素与实体接触体验。 - 体验者普遍将日常清醒现实描述为“迟钝、模糊（smooshy）”，而将致幻维度形容为更高清晰度、更具真实感的存在。 ### [01:38:33](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=5913s) 人体内源性 DMT、摩西荆棘与感知维度的局限 大卫·保利德斯（David Paulides）提出疑问：这种所谓的“药物”究竟是打开了一扇未知的大门、某种信号接收器，还是充当了发射器的角色？罗根回应道，将其简单归为“毒品/药物（drug）”本身就有问题。他引用了特伦斯·麦肯纳（Terence McKenna）的名言：“如果 DMT 算毒品，那所有人都在非法持有。”因为人类大脑本身就会自主合成这种已知效力最强的致幻化合物。不仅人体能够生成，DMT 还普遍存在于成千上万种植物之中（如虉草、金合欢树等），只是在口服时会被人体肠道中的单胺氧化酶（MAO）迅速分解破坏。 罗根由此联想到耶路撒冷一些学者的假说：旧约中摩西看到“燃烧的荆棘”并聆听神谕的经历，极有可能是摩西点燃了富含 DMT 的金合欢灌木，从而吸入了这种致幻气体。这种体验的特征与圣经记载高度契合——遇到一个充满爱与理解、无所不知的全能存在，并被赋予指引生活的道德准则（十诫）。保利德斯接着分享了自家的生活细节：他养了一只大白熊犬（Great Pyrenees），平时静卧在桌旁，但每隔四五天就会在晚上十点突然跳起来，对着空无一人的走廊和厨房低吼，仿佛看到了人类肉眼无法察觉的“小人”或异常之物。罗根深表认同，强调动物的感官系统与人类完全不同，狗所生活的嗅觉与听觉世界蕴含着人类无法想象的信息，人类狂妄地假定所有生物都与自己共享同一个世界，但现实可能远非如此。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 内源与外源DMT的代谢及作用机制 accDescr: 展示DMT在普通摄入被分解与配合单胺氧化酶抑制剂生效的对比路径 subgraph INGESTION["摄取与内源生成"] A["植物富含 DMT\n(如金合欢树 / 虉草)"] B["人类大脑\n自然合成 DMT"] end subgraph GUT["常规消化途径"] C["直接口服吸收"] D["肠道单胺氧化酶 (MAO)\n迅速分解破坏"] E["无致幻体验"] end subgraph AYAHUASCA["传统死藤水配方"] F["含 DMT 叶片\n+ 含 Harmine 根部 (MAOI)"] G["抑制单胺氧化酶分解"] H["DMT 口服生效\n开启超维度感知体验"] end A --> C --> D --> E A --> F F --> G --> H B -.-> H ``` ### [01:41:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=6069s) 亚马逊古老智慧与卡尔·希格登的外星绑架谜案 话题转向了死藤水（Ayahuasca）的发明奇迹。早在数千年前，亚马逊雨林的原住民就掌握了让 DMT 经口服起效的精妙配方：将含有二甲基色胺的植物叶片与含有去氢骆驼蓬碱（harmine，一种单胺氧化酶抑制剂 MAOI）的根藤一起熬煮，从而绕过人体肠道酶的分解。当现代人好奇原始部落如何在数以万计的雨林植物中精准挑出这两者时，原住民的回答往往耐人寻味：“是植物亲口告诉我们的。”长期与丛林、动植物共生的原住民感官极其敏锐，而现代文明的生活方式早已让这些感知力退化殆尽。同时，这些古老文化无一例外都流传着与异维度实体接触的传说。 在罗根短暂去洗手间的间隙后，两人转而讨论一起著名的离奇绑架案——1974年怀俄明州猎人卡尔·希格登（Carl Higdon）事件。保利德斯向罗根展示了相关的纪录片资料与画作： - **接触过程**：希格登在狩猎时遭遇了一个透明立方体（飞船），一名身高约6英尺、身穿黑色连体服的人形生物走出来，通过心灵感应示意他“跟我来”。 - **飞船内部景象**：希格登进入透明立方体后，看到自己刚刚瞄准的马鹿被定格在光束中，旁边还有五个人形生命体，身体僵硬、不眨眼，宛如处于静止假死状态的幽灵。 - **星际转移与淘汰**：飞船随后跃迁至约16.3万光年外一颗有着紫色天空的异星高塔上。那里的存在治愈了他身上的所有旧疾，但随后因为他做过输精管结扎手术（“没有精子/没有生殖能力”），被判定为“不合用”而遭送回。 - **不可思议的现场**：希格登被送回地球后，他的皮卡车被发现在数英里外无法通行的泥泞险境中，车辆深陷泥潭，而他本人在车内神智不清地念叨着光与声音。现场地形根本无法通过常规驾驶抵达。 - **生物还是仿生体**：希格登凭记忆绘制了外星实体“Aus-One”的肖像，对方长着类似尖刀或工具般的机械臂。罗根与保利德斯探讨指出，高级地外文明极不可能亲自涉险进行星际旅行，更符合逻辑的做法是制造人工合成人或机器人代劳，而这恰恰也是人类未来太空探索的发展方向。 ### [01:46:27](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=6387s) Optimus 机器人、意识传讯与外星人造物假说 乔·罗根与大卫·保利德斯（David Paulides）由埃隆·马斯克（Elon Musk）的太空计划切入，探讨起地外文明的技术形态。马斯克计划将人形机器人送往月球开展基建，因为机器人无需氧气，在恶劣环境下作业比运送宇航员高效得多。罗根提到马斯克甚至改造了生产线，暂停 Model S 和 Model X 的制造以全力冲刺 Optimus 机器人。两人由此推及 UFO 现象中常见的小灰人（Grays）：许多目击者与研究者都指出，小灰人可能并非纯粹的生物机体，而更接近某种合成人或人造生物机器人。 保利德斯对此尤为不解的是，如果某种造物属于机械或合成体，为何还能展现出极其精密的“心电感应”（Mind speak）。罗根则认为，人类尚未完全理解意识与通讯的本质；既然现代人类能制造出用扬声器说话的机器，那么高度发达的地外文明完全有能力造出能够直接将信息“调制并传输”进人类大脑神经回路的装置。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: Missing 411 异常失踪案件筛选与核心特征 accDescr: 展现大卫·保利德斯如何排除动物捕食，并筛选出花岗岩巨石堆与高空坠落等异常失踪模式。 subgraph S1["样本初筛阶段"] A["失踪案件报案"] --> B{"是否存在动物捕食痕迹?"} B -- "是" --> C["立即剔除案件"] B -- "否" --> D["纳入深入调查"] end subgraph S2["Missing 411 核心异常指征"] D --> E["搜救犬/专业追踪专家完全失去踪迹"] D --> F["伴随突发恶劣天气阻碍搜救"] D --> G["近水域或花岗岩巨石堆区域"] end subgraph S3["终末空间形态"] G --> H["优胜美地山谷等非荒原区域"] H --> I["悬崖远距坠亡：官方判定'被发射抛出'"] H --> J["高温环境离奇脱衣与鞋袜完好堆叠"] end ``` ### [01:48:05](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=6485s) 优胜美地山谷的岩石谜团与“被发射抛出”的死因 罗根询问在浩繁的失踪档案中，究竟有多大比例属于遭遇黑熊等野兽袭击，又有多大比例属于无法解释的超常体验。保利德斯明确表示，他的筛选机制极为严苛，只要现场存在任何猛兽捕食或撕咬的痕迹，该案便会被直接剔除。他只聚焦那些充斥着反常几何与环境模式的案件：专业追踪猎犬完全嗅不到气味、资深追踪专家找寻不到任何足迹、失踪前后伴随突如其来的诡异恶劣天气，以及遗体往往出现在水体边缘或巨石堆（boulder fields）周围。 保利德斯特别提到了拥有全美最密集花岗岩巨石与默塞德河（Merced River）纵贯的优胜美地山谷（Yosemite Valley）。与荒野腹地不同，优胜美地山谷是一个相对封闭、游人如织、极难彻底迷路的狭长峡谷，然而历史上却有十余起诡谲至极的彻底蒸发案。约四十年前优胜美地调查员处理过一起女性死亡事件，其尸体被发现于远离悬崖底部的开阔地带，官方调查报告中竟然罕见地使用了“被发射”（she was launched）这一词汇。保利德斯指出，国家公园管理局的文书向来措辞极度保守严谨，普通坠崖或滑落绝无可能飞出那么远的水平距离，强风也无法提供这种动能，这与不明飞行物在高空将捕获物“自高处抛下”的模式高度吻合。罗根感叹这种直接抛掷的做法令人毛骨悚然，而许多被绑架者声称在经历结束后被“扔回床上”，也佐证了这种毫无怜悯的粗暴投放特征。 - **排除法则**：凡带抓痕、拖拽食肉痕迹的动物袭击案一概不予收录。 - **环境共性**：优胜美地山谷核心景区内高频出现的巨石堆、花岗岩断崖与水系。 - **调查官措词**：优胜美地官方报告直接使用 "launched" 形容悬崖远处的女尸分布位点。 ### [01:50:34](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=6634s) 失踪者结局统计与华氏80度下的“异常脱衣” 谈及异常失踪者的最终下落比例时，保利德斯估算约有 40% 到 50% 的失踪者彻底人间蒸发，永无音讯；而在得以寻获的剩余半数中，生还者与死者大约各占一半（各占整体案卷的 25% 左右）。在尸体被找回的个案中，法医检验证据往往更加令人费解。 保利德斯详细描述了一种高发于林间的“分离点”（point of separation）现象：两名同行者在一条步道上分道扬镳，仅仅前行了一百码左右，原地便留下一堆整整齐齐叠放的衣物，从内衣、袜子到登山鞋一应俱全，而当事人却无影无踪。更离奇的是，当时环境气温高达华氏 80 度（约 26.7 摄氏度）。罗根指出，医学上虽然存在严重失温症患者在临死前因中枢神经错乱而反常脱衣（paradoxical undressing）的现象，但绝不可能在华氏 80 度的温和夏日于数分钟内迅速发作。在遍地荆棘和锋利岩石的山林步道上主动脱掉鞋袜行走，完全违背了基本的生存本能。 ### [01:52:39](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=6759s) 福克斯新闻的异动、多物种假说与《披露时代》 罗根注意到主流媒体生态近期发生了颠覆性的转变。向来传统的福克斯新闻（Fox News）竟然在黄金时段煞有介事地讨论起蜥蜴人（Reptilians）、北欧型外星人（Nordics）和小灰人等概念，其画风宛如阿特·贝尔（Art Bell）主持的深夜神秘学电台节目《Coast to Coast AM》。罗根推测，这或许是一场精心设计的“缓慢滴灌”（slow trickling）脱敏行动，旨在让思维保守的婴儿潮一代逐渐接受地外实体存在的现实。罗根甚至半开玩笑地调侃马斯克或是喜剧演员乔伊·迪亚兹（Joey Diaz）天赋异禀得如同外星人潜伏在人类社会。 紧接着，节目连线并播放了纪录片《披露时代》（Age of Disclosure）制作人丹·法利（Dan Farley）接受福克斯新闻采访的实况片段。法利在采访中透露，包括高级情报官员在内的多位内部核心人士已正式实名作证： 1. **残骸与遗骸回收**：美国政府部门在过去数十年中打捞、回收了数十架非人类起源的坠毁飞行器（craft of non-human origin），从中获取了非人类技术，并在部分残骸中发现了非人类乘员遗体。 2. **多物种共存**：参与绝密调查的证人证实，回收的非人类遗体并不属于同一类别，证明涉足地球的地外生命存在多个物种。 3. **白宫解密遇阻**：针对为何披露文件雷声大雨点小，法利解释称总统早在二月中旬便发布行政指令，要求各联邦机构解密所有 UAP 和非人类智能生命的档案；然而掌控并保守这一机密长达 80 年的情报官僚集团拒绝放弃手中的绝对权力，正在幕后与白宫展开剧烈博弈。这些守门人借口公众心理承受力脆弱，但法利反驳称大众展现出的完全是理性探索的好奇心，并未出现恐慌跳楼的极端行为。 ### [01:56:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=6968s) 八角星 UFO 视频与“辟谣者的辟谣” 在谈及政府对不明飞行物（UAP/UFO）信息的公开程度时，乔·罗根与大卫·保利德斯聊到了近期海量解密档案中的一段奇异黑白录像。画面中是一个看起来类似八角星的不明发光体，网络上围绕其来源众说纷纭，甚至有人将其与外星生命或宗教神迹联系在一起。然而，主流“辟谣者”给出的解释却极其冷淡：专家声称这只是军用红外摄像机在捕捉到喷气式战机喷射出的炙热尾气流时所产生的光学畸变。 罗根对此半开玩笑地表达了强烈不满，直呼“他们怎么敢这样辟谣”、“我要去辟谣那些辟谣者”，坦言自己多么希望这个令人惊叹的飞行物是货真价实的奇迹。他还特别推荐了丹·法拉（Dan Farah）执导的纪录片《揭秘时代》（*Age of Disclosure*），认为片中汇集了众多掌握内部机密知情人士的证言，非常值得一看。尽管对于所谓的“喷气发动机尾气畸变”说辞持怀疑态度，保利德斯随即顺水推舟，将话题从空中的神秘现象拉回到更为离奇的地面谜团——一种涉及国家安全与政府隐秘机构的失踪案分支。 - **解密红外视频**：录制于 2013 年的军用红外影像，画面呈现出一个规则旋转般的“八角星”形态。 - **辟谣结论**：军方及分析人士归因于喷气发动机高温废气尾羽对红外摄像传感器造成的图像失真。 - **纪录片推荐**：罗根力荐丹·法拉的《揭秘时代》（*Age of Disclosure*），强调其内部人士访谈的震撼性。 --- ### [01:57:34](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=7054s) 吉尔伯特·吉尔曼失踪案与 FBI 的神秘搜查 保利德斯分享了自己在追踪国家公园失踪案过程中的认知演变，特别提到了他在纪录片《Missing 411: National Parks - Washington State》中调查的一桩发生在 2006 年的典型案件：吉尔伯特·吉尔曼（Gilbert Gilman）失踪案。吉尔曼并非普通的徒步爱好者，他曾是一名陆军情报官员，精通六门语言，曾在以色列和非洲等地执行过敏感任务。退役后，他涉足政界，担任一位竞选国会议员女性的竞选团队成员；在该候选人败选并转任华盛顿州退休服务局（Department of Retirement Systems）局长后，吉尔曼被任命为其副手。失踪当天是星期日，吉尔曼本该参加一场工作会议，却驱车前往奥林匹克国家公园（Olympic National Park）。在停车场，他因车载音乐声音过大被护林员提醒，调低音量后独自走入林区，自此人间蒸发，搜救犬甚至无法追踪到任何气味路径。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 吉尔伯特·吉尔曼失踪案疑点示意图 accDescr: 展示吉尔伯特·吉尔曼失踪前后的核心异常线索与联邦调查局介入过程。 subgraph Background["背景与反常举动"] A["陆军情报官背景<br/>精通6国语言"] --> B["行前反常致电女友<br/>未能成功沟通"] B --> C["公寓留下阿拉伯语便签<br/>床头摆放《神曲·地狱篇》"] end subgraph Disappearance["公园失踪"] D["奥林匹克国家公园下车入林"] --> E["警犬完全无法追踪气味"] E --> F["大规模搜寻毫无痕迹"] end subgraph Interference["三字情报机构介入"] G["母亲赴西雅图参与搜救"] --> H["两名 FBI 特工无令进入芝加哥公寓"] H --> I["带走阿拉伯语便签与私人遗物"] end Background --> Disappearance Disappearance --> Interference ``` 在为此案拍摄纪录片并深入走访家属时，保利德斯挖出了官方报告中从未提及的惊人内幕。吉尔曼的女友在采访中情绪崩溃，透露失踪前一周吉尔曼曾拼命试图联系她，语气急促仿佛有重大机密要交代，但因工作繁忙两人错过了沟通；当保利德斯追问“他是否曾为 CIA（中央情报局）工作”时，女友陷入长时间的沉默，随后支支吾吾地说“我不知道我能不能谈论这个”，罗根当即指出“这种回答就是‘是’”。更离奇的证言来自吉尔曼住在芝加哥 30 层豪华顶层公寓的富有母亲：在吉尔曼失踪前，他曾在母亲家中的茶几上留下一本写有阿拉伯语文字的黄色便签本，并在床头柜上特意叠放了两本书（其中一本疑似为但丁的《神曲·地狱篇》），母亲怀疑这是某种隐语密码。 最令保利德斯警惕的转折发生在搜救期间。当时吉尔曼的母亲已飞往华盛顿州协助寻人，芝加哥公寓的物业却突然致电告知：两名自称是 FBI 的特工上门，在没有任何搜查令的情况下强行要求物业开门进入公寓。母亲返回芝加哥后发现，那本写有阿拉伯语的黄色便笺以及吉尔曼的若干私人物品已被特工悉数取走。作为前执法人员的保利德斯直言这完全违背了法定程序——如果这只是一起普通的荒野迷路失踪案，联邦调查局绝无理由在无搜查令的情况下搜查住所并没收私人物品。这让保利德斯不得不提出一种阴暗的推测：在某些所谓的国家公园失踪案背后，是否有“三字情报机构”利用荒野作为掩护，蓄意让掌握核心敏感信息的人彻底“消失”？ - **失踪者背景**：吉尔伯特·吉尔曼，前美国陆军情报官，通晓 6 种语言，曾派驻中东和非洲，失踪时任华盛顿州退休服务局副局长。 - **失踪时间与地点**：2006 年 6 月，华盛顿州奥林匹克国家公园 Staircase 地区。 - **FBI 越权搜查**：母亲在搜救期间，FBI 特工在无搜查令的情况下进入其芝加哥顶层公寓，精准没收了吉尔曼留下的阿拉伯语手写便签本与私人物品。 - **暗号线索**：留下的两本特定书籍（推测包含《神曲·地狱篇》*Dante's Inferno*）被家属视为吉尔曼留下的隐秘提示。 --- ### [02:02:42](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=7362s) 蓄意消失的阴影：从吉尔曼到罗纳德·塔曼案 面对吉尔曼案的种种重重迷雾，保利德斯倾向于认为吉尔曼本人对这一切心知肚明，甚至可能是在完全知情并同意的情况下配合了这场“人间蒸发”行动。那些刻意留下的阿拉伯语便笺与特定书籍，正是他试图留给至亲的无声暗示。罗根对此提出疑问：如果一个人只是想进入更机密的政府部门工作，官方为何要处心积虑地切断他与家庭的所有联系，并制造出离奇失踪的假象？保利德斯表示这正是他与研究团队百思不得其解的核心疑问——究竟是何种任务或利益，必须以彻底斩断真实身份为代价？ 为了佐证这一模式并非个例，保利德斯引述了发生于 20 世纪 50 年代俄亥俄州迈阿密大学的一桩著名悬案——罗纳德·塔曼（Ronald Tammen Jr.）失踪事件。塔曼当时是一名活跃的大学生，既是校摔跤队主力，也在校管乐队演奏。某天夜里，塔曼回到宿舍，赫然发现自己的床上被人放了一条死鱼；他找到宿舍管理员更换了干净床单，然而就在当晚，他彻底消失不见。 这起失踪事件本被当作普通的大学生离奇出走案，直到五个月后，迈阿密大学的宿管主管与妻子在纽约州北部（距宾夕法尼亚州边界仅 10 英里的一座小镇）的一家民宿餐厅用餐时，意外在相隔仅 10 英尺的餐桌上看到了塔曼。当时塔曼与另外两名男子同桌，三人均西装革履，并在察觉到宿管主管的注视后神色警觉。当主管前往停车场安顿好妻子、折返餐厅试图与塔曼相认时，这三名西装男子已经在短短片刻内全数离开，从此杳无音信。塔曼身在洛杉矶的家人余生再未收到他的任何消息。 谈及此处，罗根通过手机查询了专门记录该案的网站（RonaldTammen.com），指出该网站更新的一则信息：2010 年曾有人承认，当年放在床上的死鱼其实只是一场恶作剧。保利德斯回应道，即便死鱼是一场兄弟会的恶作剧，也无法抹去塔曼随后人间蒸发、数月后身着笔挺西装在神秘人员陪同下现身的事实。整起事件依然充满冷战时期特工机构秘密吸纳人员或掩盖身份的浓重痕迹。 - **罗纳德·塔曼失踪案**：1953 年发生于俄亥俄州迈阿密大学（Miami University in Ohio），大二学生塔曼在宿舍遭遇死鱼恶作剧当晚神秘失踪。 - **神秘目击事件**：失踪 5 个月后，校方人员在纽约州靠近宾州边境的一处小镇餐厅目击塔曼，其身穿西装与另外两名西装男子同行，在被认出后迅速撤离。 - **2010 年恶作剧自白**：尽管网站记录显示死鱼事件在 2010 年被确认为校内恶作剧，但塔曼本人的下落及官方背景疑云至今未解。 ### [02:06:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=7577s) 连环杀手假说与现场痕迹的质疑 两人在一句关于“谁也不会清醒时故意和死鱼睡在一张床上”的玩笑后，将话题拉回到了那些毫无征兆凭空消失的人身上。乔·罗根（Joe Rogan）感到十分费解，追问戴维·鲍利德斯（David Paulides）：这些失踪者难道事前就知道自己会被带走吗？鲍利德斯表示，对于罗恩·塔曼（Ronald Tammen）案他不敢妄下断言，但他强烈怀疑吉尔伯特·吉尔曼（Gilbert Gilman）很可能知道自己即将离开。当罗根询问吉尔曼究竟是如何被带走时，现场提到了十多年前某个电视节目曾调查过的一名连环杀手——该杀手在34岁去世前曾承认犯下至少八起杀戮，并声称曾将受害者的遗体沉入一百英尺深的湖底。 鲍利德斯对此类“连环杀手在密林中作案”的说法嗤之以鼻，认为这纯属无稽之谈。罗根反问其原因，鲍利德斯解释道，如果是连环杀手在树林深处杀害了吉尔曼，警方和搜救犬从失踪当天就已赶到现场，若是发生凶杀，现场必定会留下拖拽痕迹、挣扎打斗的血迹或行凶地点（Kill Site）。即便凶手采取扼杀方式，当时周边区域人数众多、停车场空间狭小，任何形迹可疑之人都绝不可能完全避开他人视线。 - 连环杀手假说：有人曾声称该区域的连环杀手生前承认多起杀戮，并将一具乃至八具遗体沉入深达百英尺的湖底。 - 反驳依据：案发后搜救队携搜救犬第一时间进驻，未发现任何血迹或通往抛尸/行凶现场的痕迹，加之停车场范围狭小，带走被害人几乎不可能不引起目击者注意。 --- ### [02:08:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=7700s) 吉尔伯特·吉尔曼失踪案：自导自演的特工撤离？ 针对吉尔伯特·吉尔曼的离奇失踪，鲍利德斯推测这背后存在某种精心设计的“撤离手段（Extraction Method）”。吉尔曼当时的装束极其反常——他身穿百慕大短裤、夏威夷衬衫，脚踩人字拖，身上仅仅带了一部相机，根本不符合任何进入原始山林徒步的装备要求。巡警甚至指出，吉尔曼在现场故意大声播放音乐，很可能是一个提前约定好的信号，目的是让公园巡警注意到他在那里，从而确立他曾出现于此的“不在场”或“失踪证据”。罗根忍不住打趣问鲍利德斯，整天研究这些光怪陆离的失踪案，会不会觉得自己的认知也在逐渐失常。鲍利德斯严肃地回应，这绝非自己的凭空臆想，而是整理自吉尔曼的女友和母亲的陈述；更不合常理的是，联邦调查局（FBI）事后曾亲自搜查吉尔曼的住所，并专门带走了写有阿拉伯语的便签本以及多本书籍，这显然远远超出了普通人口失踪案件的调查范畴。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 吉尔伯特·吉尔曼失踪案疑点示意图 accDescr: 展示吉尔曼失踪案中反常行为、政府介入及特工卧底推测的关系 subgraph Scene["现场反常行为"] A["穿着反常<br/>(夏威夷衫/短裤/人字拖)"] B["大声播放音乐<br/>(疑似吸引巡警确认位置)"] end subgraph Investigation["异常调查动向"] C["FBI介入搜查住所"] D["没收阿拉伯语便签及书籍"] end subgraph Background["个人履历与特工假说"] E["精通六门语言 / 联合国工作经历"] F["伞兵退役 / 具备高阶野外生存技能"] G["伪造失踪以便执行绝密卧底任务"] end Scene --> Investigation Investigation --> Background ``` 罗根随后翻阅到两年前的最新报道：吉尔曼的母亲怀疑儿子可能并未死亡，而是为美国政府担任秘密特工隐姓埋名，官方甚至承认这种可能性并非完全不存在。资料显示，吉尔曼曾在联合国工作，精通六种不同语言，接受过军方伞兵训练，具备审讯技能和极强的生存能力。如果官方需要派他执行海外绝密任务，完全有动机制造一场假死或神秘失踪，彻底抹去其原有身份。然而，谈及这一推论时，现场气氛变得沉重。鲍利德斯回忆起自己曾坐在吉尔曼年已八十八岁的老母亲对面，那位老人几乎已经心碎崩溃。当鲍利德斯问老人想对可能正躲在世界某处看着电视的儿子说什么时，老人只哀求了一句：“吉尔伯特，求你回家吧。”两人感叹，如果是为了特工任务而对年迈父母隐瞒死活，这种做法无疑极其残忍。 - 吉尔曼背景特征：曾任联合国工作人员、审讯员，精通六种语言，具有军方伞兵经历与高超生存技能。 - 疑点重重的失踪细节：随身只带相机，着装不适宜户外活动，FBI 介入搜走涉密外语记录与读物。 - 情感代价：若该失踪系人为策划的秘密撤离，其近九旬的母亲在痛苦中苦苦等待，令人唏嘘不已。 --- ### [02:10:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=7821s) 机密现实、信息垄断与政府掩盖 从特工假说回到失踪现象的多样性，罗根指出这类案件的走向截然不同——有些明显指向政府绝密项目，有些则笼罩在天外来客或多维空间存在的神秘阴影中。罗根借由制片人丹·法拉（Dan Farah）讨论过的内容感慨道，假设鲍勃·拉扎尔（Bob Lazar）等人揭露的是事实，世界上真的存在被回收的外星遗骸与飞船，并且存在逆向工程项目，那么极少数知晓真相的精英群体眼中的世界，必然与普通大众所认知的现实存在巨大的鸿沟。他们保守着这一彻底颠覆人类认知的秘密，认定大众的心理根本承受不起真实的世界。 鲍利德斯深有感触地指出，自己在全国各地的电台节目与公众讨论中也遇到了类似的情况：成千上万的人在国家森林与荒野中神秘失踪、下落不明，而政府却始终拒绝公开承认，既不发布官方统计清单，也不解密相关档案。当罗根提出这是否纯粹源于国家公园管理机构人员的官僚惰性与调查无能时，鲍利德斯作为前执法人员，指出了体制背后长期且系统的沉默与回避。 - 信息隔离：极少数掌权者掌握着超越常人理解的世界真相（包括地外文明技术与超自然现象），认定公众无法承受冲击而严加保密。 - 国家公园失踪现象：森林中存在庞大的无法解释的失踪群体，但管理部门始终对公布完整失踪名单和档案讳莫如深。 --- ### [02:14:05](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=8045s) 雷尼尔山悬案：肯尼斯·阿诺德搜寻失事军机的前因后果 对话随后转向了美国西北部的雷尼尔山（Mount Rainier）。戴维·鲍利德斯向罗根询问是否知晓现代“飞碟（UFO）”热潮的开端，罗根立刻提到了1947年肯尼斯·阿诺德（Kenneth Arnold）的著名目击事件。鲍利德斯进一步揭秘了阿诺德当时驾机在雷尼尔山盘旋的真正原因：并非纯粹的观光飞行，而是在执行一项悬赏搜救任务。 就在阿诺德目击事件发生大约六个月前，美国海军陆战队（Marines）的三架运输机从加州埃尔托罗（El Toro）海军陆战队航空站起飞前往西雅图。飞行途中机群遭遇极端恶劣天气，其中一架运输机在恶劣风暴中失联。军方开出了巨额赏金寻找失踪飞机的下落，肯尼斯·阿诺德正是为了寻找这架坠毁运输机的残骸，才驾机在雷尼尔山附近盘旋搜寻，恰在此时目击了那组以惊人速度掠过山脊的神秘飞行器。数月后，搜救人员最终在雷尼尔山的险峻山坡上找到了那架坠毁的军机残骸。但令鲍利德斯极为疑惑的是，军方声称地形险峻难以运出，结果既没有移走任何一名遇难陆战队员的遗体，也未回收飞机残骸，将其永远遗弃在雪山之上；即便后来搜救队伍证实确实曾成功抵达残骸并看到了遇难者遗体，官方依然以“地形无法通行、转移困难”为由就此放弃处置。 - 1947年雷尼尔山UFO事件背景：肯尼斯·阿诺德并非无端巡航，而是为了获取高额赏金，在空中搜寻半年前失踪的海军陆战队运输机。 - 军机失事与弃置谜团：三架从埃尔托罗飞往西雅图的运输机之一撞毁在雷尼尔山；搜救人员登上现场并看到遗体后，军方最终选择不回收遗骸与机体残骸，留下了诸多耐人寻味的疑问。 ### [02:15:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=8130s) 雷尼尔山与不明飞行物历史交汇处的人员失踪之谜 David Paulides 解释了当年肯尼斯·阿诺德（Kenneth Arnold）为何会出现在雷尼尔山（Mount Rainier）附近——当时那里发生了一起坠机事件，由于地形险峻难以清理残骸，残骸全被留在了山坡上。正是在那次飞行中，阿诺德目击了多架以极高速度掠过的不明物体，并直言“那绝不是我们拥有的任何飞机”。自阿诺德事件以来，贝克山（Mount Baker）和雷尼尔山一带记录了数十起不明飞行物目击事件。更有趣且令人不寒而栗的是失踪人员的地理分布：在雷尼尔山失踪的人群中，绝大多数并非在险峻的高山之巅遇险，而是集中在山脚下的区域。当 Paulides 把这组数据放进纪录片时，观众对失踪人数之多感到难以置信——在雷尼尔山，至少有15起失踪案件至今生不见人、死不见尸，完全无法用常理解释。 失踪者包含徒步爱好者和专业摄影师。Paulides 举了两个极具代表性的离奇案例： - **阿拉斯加航空员工**：一名在阿拉斯加航空（Alaska Airlines）工作的年轻人，因家住雷尼尔山附近，每周休息日都会进山拍摄全景风光照片，其摄影技术高超，部分作品甚至被雷尼尔山国家公园总部收藏展示。某天他带着昂贵的相机和三脚架上山采风，随后彻底失联。搜救团队出动了警犬等所有专业力量连续搜索十天，却一无所获。Paulides 指出，即便是遭遇黑熊等猛兽袭击导致遗体不存，金属三脚架、相机机身、厚重登山靴和腰带也应当永久留存在地表，但搜救人员连一片零件或装备残骸都没找到。 - **年轻天才医学博士**：近期（近两三年内）失踪的一位年仅34岁的医生。他毕业于加州大学伯克利分校（UC Berkeley），刚搬到西雅图接手新工作，聪明绝顶。他在该区域进行长途环线背包徒步（Giant Loop Backpacking）时神秘失踪。同样是大规模搜救无果，现场没有留下任何脚印、气味线索或活动痕迹。 在同一个目击了数十起不明飞行物的特定区域内，反复上演着“大规模搜救却找不到哪怕一丝痕迹”的诡异循环。这让 Joe Rogan 忍不住打趣感叹：“天哪，如果你真想被外星人绑架或者弄明白到底发生了什么，那儿绝对是你的不二之选。” ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 雷尼尔山失踪案例特征 accDescr: 展示雷尼尔山周边失踪事件中反常的共同规律与物证缺失特征 subgraph GeoContext["地理与历史背景"] A["肯尼斯·阿诺德历史目击事件<br/>（贝克山 / 雷尼尔山区域）"] B["数十起历史 UFO / 光球目击报告"] end subgraph Disappearances["反常失踪案件（至少15人）"] C["航司摄影爱好者失踪<br/>（携带专业相机与三脚架）"] D["34岁伯克利医学博士失踪<br/>（环线背包徒步中失联）"] end subgraph Investigation["搜救结果与疑点"] E["大规模地毯式搜索<br/>（搜救犬 + 搜救队）"] F["关键物证全无：<br/>无脚印、无气味踪迹、无装备残留<br/>（甚至未留下金属脚架或靴子）"] end GeoContext --> Disappearances Disappearances --> Investigation E --> F ``` --- ### [02:18:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=8282s) 光球目击、特效造假与现实界限的模糊 当 Rogan 询问 Paulides 本人是否亲眼见过看似来自外星球的物体时，Paulides 肯定地回答，他们曾“多次见过光球（Orbs）和不明飞行物”，并且团队手中也掌握了一些照片。但他随即坦言，现阶段外界拍摄到的大量所谓“高质量光球照片”在鉴别上已经变得异常棘手。 随着自己制作了五部纪录片后，Paulides 亲眼见识到了现代特效技术的飞速下沉：如今就连十二三岁、十四五岁的中学生，用日常设备制作出的特效画面就足以逼真到让人在荧幕上完全无法分辨真伪。Rogan 对此深表赞同，表示现在这个时代“所有规则都被打破了”（all bets are off），人们根本无法判断眼前影像的真假。这也正是 Rogan 如今收到别人发来的大脚怪或 UFO 照片和视频时直接选择忽视的原因，因为数字生成的真伪难辨；在 Rogan 看来，唯有倒退回真正的传统胶片时代所拍摄下来的物理底片，才值得拿出来仔细审视和检验。 --- ### [02:19:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=8350s) 结语与作品索引 访谈进入尾声，Rogan 感谢了 Paulides 的到来，并感叹 Paulides 沉浸在这些常人难以理解的神秘案件中长达几十年，其脑海中对世界的认知与常人相比一定非常特殊且奇特（"a very weird version of the world"）。Rogan 直言：“我认为背后一定存在着某种东西，但我不知道到底是什么。你觉得呢？”对此，Paulides 笑着留了个悬念，表示也许答案得留到“第二回合”（Round 2）的访谈中再深入探讨。 在节目的最后，Paulides 向观众介绍了了解其调查成果与纪录片的渠道： - **亚马逊（Amazon）平台**： - 《Missing 411: National Parks - Washington State》（失踪411：华盛顿州国家公园） - 《American Sasquatch: Man, Myth, or Monster》（美国大脚怪：人、神话还是怪物） - **Tubi 免费流媒体平台**： - 《Missing 411》（失踪411 第一部） - 《Missing 411: The Hunted》（失踪411：被捕猎者） - 《Missing 411: The UFO Connection》（失踪411：UFO关联） - **官方网站**： - `missing411.com`（收录了其全部出版书籍与研究资料） 两人互致道谢后，播客正式录制结束。 ## Notable quotes > [11:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=661s) 你绝不可能拿到这份案卷。 — 国家公园管理局余姓特工 > [22:31](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=1351s) 我们害怕下一个轮到的就是我们自己，它们刚刚带走了麋鹿，接下来就该抓人了。 — MUFON 记录中的华盛顿州植树工人 > [23:36](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=1416s) 我们不要你，你得回去。 — 卡尔·希格顿接触的外星实体 > [28:58](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=1738s) 如果人类对于它们而言，只不过是一个巨大的‘蚂蚁农场’呢？ — David Paulides > [35:42](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=2142s) 如果你去跟一个15世纪的人讲手机，告诉他：‘嘿，我能跟在澳大利亚的朋友打 FaceTime 视频电话。’他们会说：‘你到底在胡言乱语什么？’你掏出兜里只有几张纸那么薄的设备，隔着屏幕彼此看着对方，画面还是高清无延迟的同步音频——在他们眼里，这纯粹就是魔法。可今天我们早就习以为常，接通电话只是随口一句：‘嘿，最近怎么样？’ — Joe Rogan > [01:05:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=3930s) 戴夫，在所有这些人里面，你是唯一一个说实话的人。你关于 DNA 和血统的论述 100% 属实，与我们的研究发现完全吻合。我们很清楚它们绝不是任何普通的猿类或猩猩，而是一种人们无法理解的人类杂交体。 — 俄罗斯科学院科学家 > [01:09:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=4140s) 你们证明了我一直想要知道的真相 — Wally Hersam > [01:16:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=4569s) 我不管，这就是你们的新工作，因为你们是我手下最具公信力、最可靠的两个人。 — 纳瓦霍游骑兵副队长 > [01:21:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=4872s) 我们在上面照顾‘哈利’。 — 原住民酋长 > [01:40:33](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=6033s) 如果 DMT 算毒品，那所有人都在非法持有。 — Terence McKenna（Joe Rogan 引用） > [01:41:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=6069s) 是植物亲口告诉我们的。 — 亚马逊雨林原住民（Joe Rogan 引用） > [02:08:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=7700s) 吉尔伯特，求你回家吧。 — 吉尔伯特·吉尔曼的母亲 > [02:15:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=8130s) 那绝不是我们拥有的任何飞机。 — 肯尼斯·阿诺德（David Paulides 引用） > [02:19:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0&t=8350s) 我认为背后一定存在着某种东西，但我不知道到底是什么。你觉得呢？ — Joe Rogan ## Mentioned Joe Rogan, David Paulides, Art Bell, Coast to Coast AM, Stacy Arras, National Park Service (NPS), FOIA (Freedom of Information Act), Exemption 7A, Tim Burchett, Doug Burgum, Carl Higdon, MUFON, Medicine Bow National Forest, F.E. Warren Air Force Base, Robert Hastings, Travis Walton, George Knapp, Skinwalker Ranch, Colm Kelleher, Perplexity, Gigantopithecus, Scott Carpenter, Dr. Melba Ketchum, GenBank, L.A. Marzulli, Ron Morehead, DeNovo Scientific Journal, Russian Academy of Sciences, Almasti, Bigfoot Field Researchers Organization (BFRO), Wally Hersam, Duncan Trussell, Joe Rogan Questions Everything, Navajo Rangers, Federal Law Enforcement Training Centers (FLETC), The Oregonian, Giuliana Furci, Dom Nauer, Lanmaoa asiatica, Amanita muscaria, Andrew Gallimore, Terence McKenna, Optimus, Elon Musk, Age of Disclosure, Dan Farah, Gilbert Gilman, Olympic National Park, FBI, CIA, Ronald Tammen Jr., Kenneth Arnold, Mount Rainier, Mount Baker, Alaska Airlines, Tubi, Amazon ## Video description David Paulides is a writer, investigator, filmmaker, and former law enforcement officer. He is the author of the “Missing 411” series, which explores unexplained disappearances in North American wilderness and national parks, as well as several books about Bigfoot. His latest films, “American Sasquatch” and “Missing 411: National Parks - Washington State,” are available on most streaming platforms. https://www.youtube.com/@canammissingproject https://www.canammissing.com https://www.davidpaulides.com Perplexity: Download the app or ask Perplexity anything at https://pplx.ai/rogan. Try ZipRecruiter FOR FREE at https://ziprecruiter.com/rogan Get Visible for just $20/mo for 1 year. Use code FRESHSTART. Switch & see terms at  https://www.visible.com [Source](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UduwgMDR-0)

[11:01] 国家公园管理局余姓特工: 你绝不可能拿到这份案卷。 [22:31] MUFON 记录中的华盛顿州植树工人: 我们害怕下一个轮到的就是我们自己，它们刚刚带走了麋鹿，接下来就该抓人了。 [23:36] 卡尔·希格顿接触的外星实体: 我们不要你，你得回去。 [28:58] David Paulides: 如果人类对于它们而言，只不过是一个巨大的‘蚂蚁农场’呢？ [35:42] Joe Rogan: 如果你去跟一个15世纪的人讲手机，告诉他：‘嘿，我能跟在澳大利亚的朋友打 FaceTime 视频电话。’他们会说：‘你到底在胡言乱语什么？’你掏出兜里只有几张纸那么薄的设备，隔着屏幕彼此看着对方，画面还是高清无延迟的同步音频——在他们眼里，这纯粹就是魔法。可今天我们早就习以为常，接通电话只是随口一句：‘嘿，最近怎么样？’ [65:30] 俄罗斯科学院科学家: 戴夫，在所有这些人里面，你是唯一一个说实话的人。你关于 DNA 和血统的论述 100% 属实，与我们的研究发现完全吻合。我们很清楚它们绝不是任何普通的猿类或猩猩，而是一种人们无法理解的人类杂交体。 [69:00] Wally Hersam: 你们证明了我一直想要知道的真相 [76:09] 纳瓦霍游骑兵副队长: 我不管，这就是你们的新工作，因为你们是我手下最具公信力、最可靠的两个人。 [81:12] 原住民酋长: 我们在上面照顾‘哈利’。 [100:33] Terence McKenna（Joe Rogan 引用）: 如果 DMT 算毒品，那所有人都在非法持有。 [101:09] 亚马逊雨林原住民（Joe Rogan 引用）: 是植物亲口告诉我们的。 [128:20] 吉尔伯特·吉尔曼的母亲: 吉尔伯特，求你回家吧。 [135:30] 肯尼斯·阿诺德（David Paulides 引用）: 那绝不是我们拥有的任何飞机。 [139:10] Joe Rogan: 我认为背后一定存在着某种东西，但我不知道到底是什么。你觉得呢？

[2:00] David Paulides: there were too many people going missing in a short period of time that no one seemed to care about [12:48] National Park Service Special Agent: You're never going to get the case. [28:44] David Paulides: What if we're the ant farm? [65:50] Russian scientist: Dave, you're the only guy to tell the truth out of everybody out here. [89:59] The speaker: Santa Claus was a mushroom a long time ago [93:35] The speaker: reality itself is [fucking] magic. [98:36] Terence McKenna: If DMT is a drug, everyone's holding [109:07] Joe Rogan: very disturbing. [115:10] Joe Rogan: I'm gonna debunk the debunkers. [130:45] David Paulides: orbs and UFOs many times. [130:45] David Paulides: you really can't tell what's real anymore. [132:21] Joe Rogan: I think there's something there,

[0:01] Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out. [0:04] >> The Joe Rogan Experience. [0:06] >> TRAIN BY DAY. JOE ROGAN PODCAST BY [0:08] NIGHT. All day. [0:12] >> David, welcome to the show. [0:14] >> Pull on up to the microphone. Get that [0:16] sucker up like a fist from your face. [0:17] Uh, I first heard about you from that [0:20] guy, Art Bell, the GOAT. [0:24] >> The greatest. [0:25] >> Yeah, he was. Uh, I used to love [0:27] listening to his show. uh coming home [0:29] from the comedy store. We come home at [0:30] like 1:00 in the morning and coast to [0:33] coast with Art Bell from the Kingdom of [0:35] Nigh. It was awesome. And uh that's when [0:39] I I first uh got turned on to your work. [0:41] So tell everybody you uh you started off [0:43] in law enforcement, [0:45] right? That's your background, [0:46] >> correct? [0:47] >> How did you get involved in this mystery [0:50] of people going missing? [0:54] So, I had already written a couple of [0:55] books and I was at Yusede National Park [1:00] doing some research on another topic [1:03] and two rangers are following me around [1:06] and I went back to my room that was [1:10] at the park and about an hour and a half [1:12] later, one of the rangers comes to my [1:14] room and he's in plain clothes and he [1:16] knocks on my door and he says, "Hey [1:18] Dave, I'm Ranger so and so. I'm here off [1:21] duty. I want to talk to you about some [1:22] missing people. I said, "Come on." So, [1:25] we start talking and he says that he [1:27] knew about me probably the way he knew [1:30] about me. And he says, "I know you're [1:33] from law enforcement. Somebody look [1:34] needs to look into this." About an hour [1:37] and a half later, his partner shows up [1:38] at the door. And they said that they've [1:40] worked at different parks over the [1:42] years. And while they were working at [1:44] those parks, there were missing people. [1:46] And he said at the beginning there was a [1:48] lot of publicity, a lot of people [1:51] interested, a lot of activity and then [1:55] with time with within about 10 15 days [1:58] all of that would end. [2:00] and he said, 'We got concerned and we [2:03] did a Freedom of Information Act against [2:05] our own agency to get the reports and we [2:07] couldn't get the reports and then we did [2:10] a Freedom of Information Act request on [2:12] other cases and we couldn't get the [2:14] reports and we got concerned because [2:17] after that initial 10 14 day period of [2:20] searching is all over there's nothing [2:22] else that happens. That's it. and he [2:25] said, "Somebody ought to look into this [2:27] because there's a lot of people missing [2:29] and the park service doesn't talk about [2:30] it." Now, what was he assuming? Was he [2:34] assuming something nefarious was going [2:35] on or was he assuming that it was a a [2:39] lack of commitment to finding the [2:41] bodies? Because you got to assume most [2:43] people after 14 days lost in the woods [2:45] are probably going to die. I think all [2:47] the above. [2:49] He thought that there were too many [2:50] people going missing. there wasn't [2:53] enough follow-up being done [2:55] and nobody seemed to care. So, if you [2:59] were being pragmatic and you weren't [3:01] like diving into mysteries and the stuff [3:03] that I like, the fun stuff, you would [3:05] say, well, they don't have any [3:07] resources. You know, there's not enough [3:09] people to go looking. when you think [3:11] about the actual square miles that you [3:13] would have to cover to find a body and [3:15] then also the reality of predators and [3:18] all these different animals that are [3:19] going to eat bodies. If a body's there, [3:21] there's not going to be much left. You [3:23] spent obviously you spent time in the [3:24] woods. Have you ever seen a dead [3:26] mountain lion? [3:28] >> No, I've never seen I've never seen a [3:30] dead bear. [3:31] >> Uh [3:33] I've only seen dead bears because I was [3:35] hunting. I've never seen a dead bear. [3:38] Well, no, that's not true. No, I did. We [3:40] did find one, but I think um it's very [3:43] rare, but that one was recently dead. He [3:46] was killed by another bear. I think most [3:48] of the time when you find uh dead [3:51] animals, it's very recent. And if an [3:54] animal's dead and it's left alone in the [3:57] woods, within a certain amount of time, [3:59] something's going to eat it. [4:00] Everything's going to eat it, including [4:01] the bones. There's almost nothing left [4:03] by the time they get done with it. [4:04] >> 100%. [4:05] >> Yeah. But one thing I learned from being [4:09] around rangers in all these years now is [4:12] that there's few things that belong to [4:14] us, what that we go into the woods with [4:16] that are always going to be there. [4:17] Namely, our shoes, belt buckles, belt [4:20] buckles, leather, anything, [4:23] um, the rubber waistband of your [4:26] underwear. These kind of things stay [4:29] stay forever. A rifle, a pistol, [4:33] >> a bow. and those things you're going to [4:36] find. But getting back to the point of [4:39] these guys, there were too many people [4:42] going missing in a short period of time [4:44] that no one seemed to care about. That [4:47] was really their main focus. [4:49] >> And somebody ought to look into it. [4:51] Somebody ought to start collecting data. [4:53] Nobody did. [4:55] And maybe somebody from the outside, [4:59] they're the inside. Maybe somebody from [5:01] the outside would have more luck putting [5:02] this all together rather than them. That [5:05] was kind of the gist of it. Well, [5:06] there's some cases that are just flatout [5:09] weird. Like some cases like people go [5:12] missing, they die, animals eat them, [5:14] that's a wrap. That makes sense to me. [5:17] But there's a few cases and one of them [5:19] you covered was a guy, I believe he was [5:22] from Canada that went skiing in New York [5:27] and he went missing and then he showed [5:30] up 2500 miles later in California with [5:34] his ski clothes on and he didn't know [5:37] what happened. [5:39] >> Yeah. That was uh he was a fireman from [5:42] I think Toronto that went with a bunch [5:44] of friends to New York on like a weekend [5:47] ski trip and the guys were all getting [5:50] together at the end of the day to leave [5:53] and they couldn't find him. He says he [5:56] wakes up on a truck traveling from like [6:00] Reno to Sacramento. [6:03] Woke up in the back of a truck. No, [6:04] sitting in the front seat. And he said [6:07] that he was as he wakes up, he's [6:10] talking. It's not like he was asleep and [6:12] woke up. It's like his mind suddenly [6:14] flashed open. Hey, you're alive now. You [6:16] can keep talking. And he goes, "But I [6:18] was talking to the driver and we're [6:20] traveling." [6:22] The driver drops him off at Sacramento [6:24] airport. [6:25] He doesn't remember anything, but he [6:27] remembers his home phone number. He [6:29] calls his wife in Toronto and she goes, [6:32] "Hey, everyone's searching for you, [6:34] thinking you're still at the ski [6:36] resort." He go he has all the ski [6:37] clothes on. How many days later? [6:40] >> I don't remember. But even he doesn't [6:43] make sense of it. He doesn't know how he [6:45] got in the truck. The truck driver left. [6:49] Nobody knows who the truck driver was. [6:53] That was kind of the the whole story. It [6:56] wasn't a lot. [6:56] >> So he didn't ask the truck driver, "Hey, [6:58] where'd you pick me up?" [6:59] >> I think he was embarrassed. [7:02] >> Just embarrassed that he was in the [7:03] truck and doesn't remember how he got in [7:04] there. [7:05] >> Yeah. [7:06] Okay. So, he didn't say anything. And [7:08] did he have any memories from skiing to [7:12] like did he ever do like regressive [7:14] hypnosis or anything? [7:16] >> If he did, it never went public. [7:19] >> H was that the weirdest one? [7:22] >> Oh, no. There's there's weird. [7:23] >> What's the weirdest one you heard of? [7:27] >> The strangest disappearance story. [7:30] There's a lot of people [7:32] that disappear that don't have a memory. [7:36] And if you look back and you study [7:37] missing people, those people [7:39] historically have been abducted. [7:43] And there's something about that [7:44] abduction experience where they can take [7:46] away part of your mind. [7:47] >> You think alien abduction. That's what [7:49] you're saying. [7:50] >> Alien entity, [7:51] >> something [7:52] >> some some type of foreign [7:53] >> Just want to be clear, we're not talking [7:54] about like like a bad person abducting [7:58] person. No, we're talking about [7:59] >> some kind of entity, [8:00] >> okay? [8:02] >> And they take away part of that mind [8:04] where they were probably doing something [8:07] to you that they don't want you to know, [8:09] >> right? [8:10] >> And [8:11] there's a lot of those there's a whole [8:14] segment of people that I have chronicled [8:18] that were truck drivers [8:20] who have amnesia who were found in [8:23] conditions that were very strange. There [8:25] was a truck driver in the Midwest where [8:29] salt of the earth kind of guy drove [8:31] drove independently wife and a couple [8:34] kids. He picks up a load. I want I want [8:37] to say it was pigs and he's his truck is [8:41] found like outside of Indiana on a [8:43] little two-lane highway stopped on the [8:45] side of the road. [8:47] He's not anywhere to be found, but his [8:49] coat is found in a ditch on the other [8:51] side of the other lane. So the sheriff [8:54] comes out, they do a huge search, [8:56] flyovers, canines, goes on for like four [9:00] or five days, nothing. [9:04] Week and a half later, his body is found [9:07] in that field in the spot where they had [9:10] searched all that time. Impossible to [9:13] miss. Corner says he's been dead for two [9:16] weeks. [9:18] Well, the chef can't make sense of that [9:19] because he searched that with dogs and [9:21] people. That guy should have been there. [9:25] But Joe, I have 1,500 of those cases [9:29] where canines were brought in, multiple [9:32] K9 teams, multiple searches, and people [9:35] were not found. And the point I try to [9:38] make about this is that it's not that [9:40] the searchers are inept [9:42] because I don't believe that. And I [9:44] don't believe that the canines fail [9:47] multiple multiple times because I don't [9:49] believe that can happen. I don't believe [9:51] they were there when they were [9:52] searching. They were left there later [9:55] on. [9:57] And so you've been you've been into this [10:00] for a long time, right? What was the [10:02] first case that you looked into that got [10:05] you thinking something weird's going on? [10:08] Probably would have been at Yoseite and [10:11] there was a girl named Stacy Eris [10:14] and she just weirdly she grew up [10:19] like five miles from me. I I grew up in [10:21] a little city, Certino, California. She [10:23] grew up in Saratoga, the next town over. [10:26] She went with her dad on a trip by horse [10:31] sponsored by a contractor in the park at [10:33] Yusede, and they were going to ride into [10:35] this place called the High Sierra Camp, [10:38] her and her dad and five other people. [10:40] and they get uh escorted in by a cowboy [10:44] contractor and they come to these cabins [10:48] and her dad's an older guy. They get to [10:50] the cabin and she says, "Hey, Dad, I'm [10:53] going to go over here to the point. I'm [10:55] going to take some pictures." She brings [10:56] her camera and one of the guys, a [10:59] 72-year-old guy, is sitting at that [11:01] point and she goes, "I'm going to go [11:02] right there and sit with him and take [11:05] some pictures." He goes, "Sure." Dad [11:07] watches her walk out. They sits down. [11:10] old old guy barely could ride the horse. [11:12] She's taking pictures. She gets up and [11:16] down at the bottom of the hill there's a [11:17] small lake and surrounding the lake [11:20] there's trees. [11:22] She walks down into the trees [11:25] presumably to take pictures of the lake, [11:27] but she doesn't come back. [11:29] Big search. I'm talking about one of the [11:31] biggest searches in Yoseite history. and [11:34] they find the lens cap to a camera [11:37] inside that path in the treeine. They [11:40] never find her. [11:43] And [11:45] that happened 46 years ago. I filed the [11:49] Freedom of Information Act for that [11:51] report and all the investigation into it [11:54] and I get denied. I appealed. I got [11:57] denied. [11:58] Finally, a special agent from the park [12:01] service. Just so people know, the park [12:04] service has uniformed [12:07] police officers, National Park Service [12:09] police that patrol their parks, and they [12:12] go to the National Law Enforcement [12:13] Academy. [12:15] Up above them, they have special agents, [12:18] detectives, [12:20] and they are doing all the follow-up [12:23] work that the police officers in the [12:24] field do. This case goes to a special [12:27] agent. [12:29] There's been nothing done on this case [12:30] in 40 years. The special agent calls me, [12:33] "Why do you want the case?" I said, [12:36] "Well, that's an irrelevant question [12:38] according to FOIA. You can't ask that." [12:41] And he goes, "Well, I want to know." I [12:42] said, "Well, it's been 47 years. I doubt [12:45] anyone's looked at it. Have you looked [12:46] at it?" "No, nobody's looked at it." I [12:48] said, "Well, I'd like a copy of it just [12:50] to understand what happened." He goes, [12:53] "You're never going to get the case." [12:54] This guy's name was special agent you. [12:57] Why you? I said, 'Wh? And he says, none [13:01] of your business. You're never going to [13:02] get it. I said, 'First of, why talk to [13:04] me like that? I'm prior law enforcement. [13:06] I'm I'm not being rude. I just want to [13:08] know. He goes, forget it. Drop it. [13:10] You're never going to see it. I said, [13:12] no, I want that case. And he goes, you [13:14] don't you've never seen any other [13:17] missing person case, and you're not [13:19] going to see this one. I said, "Whoa, I [13:21] have over 30 missing person cases from [13:24] your agency from around the United [13:26] States that I've foyed before and I've [13:28] received. You're a liar. You said that [13:32] to me." I said, "No, I'm not a liar. I [13:35] don't lie and this is the truth." He [13:37] goes, "Well, you're not getting this [13:38] one. [13:41] Anything else you want to know?" I said, [13:44] "No, I think you've done it." And that [13:46] was it. [13:48] In that amount of time, I've really [13:50] found out nothing more about the Stacy [13:53] case. 14-year-old girl, disappeared, [13:56] never found. Nobody's ever done anything [13:58] on the case in 40 years. I still haven't [14:01] seen it. Now, I talked to Tim Burchett, [14:03] who you had in here the other day. And I [14:06] explained to him, I want an a meeting [14:08] with Bergam, and I want to lay out what [14:11] I have and explain the obstruction, [14:14] >> the head of the Department of the [14:15] Interior. Okay. Doug Bergam. [14:16] >> Okay. [14:18] and explain to him uh the obstructions [14:19] that are happening in his agency. Those [14:21] are our reports. If nobody's looked at [14:22] it in 40 plus years, what does it matter [14:24] if I have it? [14:25] >> Right. The people that were working back [14:27] then aren't working anymore. It's not [14:28] like anyone's going to get in trouble. [14:30] >> No, half of them are dead, [14:31] >> right? [14:33] >> And [14:35] Tim said, "Okay, uh I'll have my people [14:36] get a hold of you." They got a hold of [14:38] me. They said that they called DOI. They [14:40] said that DO DOI people said, "Yeah, [14:42] we'll get a hold of you." I called them [14:44] three times. They won't call me back. [14:48] So, what do you think's going on? [14:52] >> So, when you look at the totality of and [14:54] let's just talk about Yusede. [14:57] As I dug into it, there's probably over [15:01] 50 people missing in Yoseite as we talk [15:04] right now. When I asked for a list from [15:07] Yusede from the Department of the [15:09] Interior 12 years ago, they said they [15:11] don't have a list. I asked for a list of [15:13] missing people from the entire system in [15:15] the Department of Interior. They said, [15:17] 'We don't have a list. And I said, [15:20] 'Well, okay. I've written so many books. [15:23] I'm a printed author. I'm going to ask [15:25] you to put that list together for me. [15:28] According to the rules, I fit that [15:30] criteria to ask, [15:31] >> but they said they don't have a list, [15:33] >> right? But I asked them to put one [15:34] together. [15:35] >> Okay? [15:36] >> And they said, "We'll get back to you." [15:38] They said, "No, you don't qualify, [15:41] but if you want us to put together a [15:42] list from the entire system, it's going [15:45] to cost you $1.4 million. [15:48] If you want a list from Yusede, that's [15:50] going to cost you $34,000." [15:54] So, that got me really upset. Over the [15:57] next two years, I put the list together. [15:59] Joe, the third year, you know what [16:00] Yusede did? They released a list of [16:03] missing people from Yuseite. So, I knew [16:05] I got all the people from Yuseite. I [16:08] wrote about him in my books. They still [16:10] haven't released a list from the entire [16:12] system. [16:13] >> So, do you think they released it [16:14] because you were pressuring them? No. [16:17] So, like this, you could look at it a [16:18] bunch of different ways. I'm trying to [16:19] like look at it from the skeptic's [16:22] perspective. You'd say, "Well, this is [16:24] clear. A bunch of people don't want to [16:25] do their job. They're lazy. They don't [16:27] like this guy coming along and asking [16:29] for information." But you think there's [16:31] something weird going on. [16:34] Here's a foyer I found on their website [16:36] that was sent to him in 2011. It says [16:40] that the in that uh appeal was properly [16:45] invoked because of exemption 7A. And [16:49] here's I'll let you read that. What that [16:50] is [16:51] >> 7A permits the withholding of records or [16:53] information complied or compiled rather [16:56] for law enforcement purposes but only to [16:58] the extent that the production of such [16:59] law enforcement records or information [17:01] could reasonably be expected to [17:03] interfere with enforcement proceedings. [17:07] So [17:09] they could withhold it because you could [17:12] interfere with enforcement proceedings [17:14] >> 40 years later or 30 years later I [17:17] guess. [17:17] >> That's [ __ ] weird. The exemption is [17:19] intended to prevent premature disclosure [17:21] of the investigate investigatory [17:24] materials that might be used in law [17:26] enforcement action. 40 years later, [17:28] >> it says the incident is still on in [17:30] criminal investigations. The incident is [17:31] still ongoing. [17:32] >> 40 years later, what? [17:36] Okay. Tinfoil hat firmly placed on your [17:39] head. What do you think's going on? So, [17:42] first of all, missing people [17:44] investigations are not criminal [17:45] investigations, [17:46] >> right? There's nothing criminal about [17:48] disappearing. If it's a criminal [17:50] investigation and there's criminal [17:52] aspects to it, it shouldn't be a missing [17:54] person case. It ought to be suspicious [17:56] circumstances investigated by a criminal [17:59] investigator. [18:00] >> Right? [18:00] >> It has a classification as a missing [18:02] person. And what they're not saying [18:04] there is what about the other 40 cases [18:06] I've already gotten from them that are [18:09] since that that are missing person [18:11] cases. [18:12] >> Right? [18:14] So, that's a little weird. But I could [18:16] also see incompetent people that don't [18:19] want to work. They don't want to do [18:20] their job and they're like, "Fuck this [18:22] guy. I don't want to do his work. I [18:24] don't want to go. Why is he asking me [18:25] for this information? He's just a kooky [18:28] author." [18:29] I could see that. But like, what do you [18:32] think might be going on with these [18:33] people? [18:34] >> So, when I was in law enforcement, I [18:37] worked on the SWAT team and we had [18:39] canines assigned to our team. Joe, I [18:42] can't ever remember us looking for [18:44] someone with a dog and the dog didn't [18:46] find the person. [18:47] >> Right. [18:48] >> I have 1,200 to,500 cases where they [18:52] bring a canine to find a missing person [18:55] and the dog can't track, won't track, or [18:58] turns around, comes down and sits down [19:00] and is not interested in tracking. [19:02] That's totally outside the behavior of a [19:04] dog. This episode is brought to you by [19:06] Zip Recruiter. We've all been there. [19:08] Putting something off because we simply [19:11] don't want to do it and then it never [19:13] gets done or you do it poorly. Your [19:15] enthusiasm or lack thereof shows in your [19:18] work. Hiring managers know this. It's a [19:21] big factor they consider. And if you're [19:23] like them, Zip Recruiter is your [19:25] greatest ally because you can try it for [19:27] free at ziprecruiter.com/rogan. 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Isn't [20:15] that what happened to that woman [20:16] recently that went missing that was uh a [20:19] part of this whole group of scientists [20:21] that were involved in propulsion [20:23] research? [20:23] >> Reza. [20:24] >> Yeah. Same sort of situation, right? She [20:27] was with her friend. Uh they were [20:29] hiking. They had just talked. The friend [20:32] was ahead of her. And the friend turned [20:34] around to ask her a question. She was [20:35] gone. They do an investigation. They [20:38] bring in dogs. Can't find anything. The [20:42] lady's just gone. 100%. [20:45] You're 100% right. It doesn't make any [20:47] sense. And it does. It fit that 411 [20:50] criteria that I laid down, which is why [20:52] I did a video about it. [20:54] her disappearance doesn't make sense. [21:01] So, do you have suspicions? [21:04] Like, do you think something [21:06] supernatural is going on? Do you think [21:08] something extraterrestrial or [21:11] interdimensional? Like, what do you [21:13] think is involved in these people going [21:15] missing? [21:19] First of all, I don't know. [21:20] >> Right. In my books, I've laid out facts [21:22] and I let the viewer decide. [21:25] But one thing I did find because I've [21:28] written about a lot of hunters that have [21:30] disappeared. [21:31] And let's say you and I go out and we're [21:33] going to go pig hunting at your friend's [21:36] farm down the way. And you say, "Hey [21:38] Dave, you go that way and I'll go that [21:40] way and I'll meet you in an hour." Okay. [21:44] So, in my world, I call that point of [21:45] separation. [21:47] Every time on a missing hunter case, [21:50] it's at that point of separation that [21:51] something happens. It never happens when [21:54] they're together. It always happens when [21:56] people are alone. That's point number [21:58] one. Number two is the canine issue. [22:01] Canines failure to pick up a scent. They [22:04] bring in professional trackers and they [22:06] can't find tracks. That's not normal. [22:09] Um, a lot of times, say in Alaska, they [22:14] have some great native trackers up there [22:16] and they can't find people and every [22:19] other time they can. So, it's like if [22:22] you're going from A to B, you're going [22:24] to leave a scent and you're going to [22:25] leave a track, [22:26] >> right? [22:27] >> Well, they can't find that and that's [22:29] not normal. [22:31] So, in my I made a movie called Missing [22:33] 411: The Hunted. And in that movie, [22:36] there was a case of 12 12 guys are [22:40] planting trees on the side of a mountain [22:42] in Washington State. And there's a herd [22:44] of elk at the bottom of the mountain. [22:47] And all of these guys see this classic [22:49] UFO come up the mountain, hover over one [22:53] elk. [22:55] The herd scatters, but one elk doesn't. [22:56] It just stands there. And then without [22:59] anything between the UFO and the elk, it [23:02] picks the elk up and it's gone. The guys [23:06] all say, "F this. I'm out of here." The [23:09] whole group of planners leave and the [23:12] manager for the company says, "Whoa, [23:14] guys, hold on. What's going on?" [23:17] So they call Muon out, Mutual UFO [23:19] Network. They bring some investigators [23:20] out and they interview these guys one by [23:23] one. And they all say the same thing. [23:26] and they say, "What we're afraid of is [23:29] we're next. They just took that elk, but [23:31] we're next." So that's in the movie. [23:33] Keep that in your back of your mind. [23:36] There's a guy named Carl in Wyoming. [23:39] He's hunting in the Medicine Bow [23:41] National Forest alone. [23:44] Sees some elk 100 yards away. Lines up [23:48] with his rifle. Boom. He says, "Dave, [23:51] it's like everything went into slow [23:53] motion. I see the bullet come out the [23:54] gun. about three or four feet and it [23:57] drops to the ground. [24:01] Says, I walked over and he goes, they [24:03] all didn't move and I pick it up the [24:05] bullet. I put the bullet in my pocket [24:08] and then two alien type entities walk up [24:11] to me and they engage him in mind speak [24:16] and they what they do is they eventually [24:18] take him on a craft and they take the [24:21] elk on the craft [24:24] and it's like the elk are frozen there [24:25] in time [24:27] and they have him march behind a screen [24:31] and they said we don't want you. You're [24:34] going back, mind of mine. And he goes, [24:36] "What's going on?" He goes, "You're [24:37] going back." He says, "The next thing I [24:40] remember is falling 10 to 15 ft." He's [24:44] guessing. He hits his shoulder, probably [24:47] displaces it, and he rolls down a hill. [24:50] They're already searching for him [24:51] because he's missing his wife, the [24:53] sheriff, and they take him back and they [24:56] take him to a hospital [24:58] and they're taking X-rays. and he had [25:01] tuberculo tuberculosis scars as a kid. [25:04] Those are no longer there. [25:07] And he had other medical issues that are [25:10] completely cured. [25:12] The investigators came out and they the [25:15] Wyoming Department of Law Enforcement [25:17] looked at that bullet and did an exam on [25:19] it and they could not figure out what [25:21] that bullet hit to make it deform in the [25:24] manner that it did. I have pictures of [25:26] it in the movie. It's It's very odd. [25:29] See if you can find the Is the pictures [25:30] online? [25:31] >> I'm looking. I'm looking. [25:32] >> Of course you are. [25:32] >> If you go to Tuby Tubi, Missing 411 The [25:35] Hunted, the uh the movie is there for [25:38] free. You guys could watch it. [25:39] >> Also, check out Gearheads Gone Wild. [25:41] It's my friend's show. Okay. So, uh No [25:46] Tuberculosis, Scars, The Bullet. [25:49] So, I'm talking to Carl and I said, [25:50] "Well, why do you think they sent you [25:52] back?" [25:53] He says, "Well, I think it's cuz I had a [25:55] vasectomy." [25:57] I said, "Oh, did they say anything to [25:58] you about that?" "No, [26:01] okay." So, he was 91 years old when I [26:04] interviewed him. Sharp as attack. How [26:06] old was he when this encounter happened? [26:07] >> I think he was 38, 39. [26:11] And uh [26:14] again, this happened in the Medicine Bow [26:15] National Forest. [26:17] >> Where is that? Medicine Bow is directly [26:21] uh I'd say about 75 miles northwest of [26:25] Cheyenne. [26:27] So at about the same time, the Air Force [26:30] base in Cheyenne is having a group of [26:33] cluster UFO sightings above the ICBM [26:37] sites. [26:39] And that was never made public at this [26:42] time. It was 30, 40, 50 years later [26:46] through uh Robert Hastings and other Air [26:50] Force personnel came out that these [26:52] documents started to show up. So Carl [26:54] would have never known what was [26:56] happening at the same time these things [26:58] in Cheyenne were happening. [27:02] And then you think about what's going on [27:04] in Wyoming that would cause this. But [27:06] really the epiphany to me with Carl [27:09] is there's a lot of people in the woods [27:11] that are found quote unquote they fell. [27:14] They always fall alone and they always [27:16] fall in places where if you and I are in [27:18] the woods, we're going to be pretty [27:20] careful when we're alone. We're not [27:22] going to be walking off a cliff. We're [27:24] going to be careful. A lot of these [27:26] people are found under very unusual [27:27] circumstances dead at the bottom of an [27:30] area that you just don't think makes [27:31] sense [27:33] and they couldn't be tracked. [27:36] So with Carl, [27:38] when you think about him being taken, a [27:42] hunter [27:43] hunting elk, nobody gets seen, nothing's [27:47] heard. [27:49] So, I did a circumference around the [27:52] area where he went [27:54] and it's in the movie. There's a group [27:56] of German hunters. Carl was German. [28:00] German hunters that have disappeared. [28:02] Nobody else but German that have [28:04] disappeared in that area. [28:06] And then when you look at the scope of [28:09] what I've done in my work, I went [28:10] backwards and I found there's a lot of [28:13] German people that have been abducted [28:17] more than the normal population of [28:19] people. [28:21] And these German hunters really were the [28:24] opening valve to me that something odd [28:26] was happening with German. [28:28] >> What do you think that is? Why German? [28:30] >> I really wish I knew. That's probably [28:32] outside my pay grade. I don't know. Oh, [28:34] I mean there's a lot of rumors about the [28:37] Germans having associations with aliens. [28:41] >> Oh, during the Nazi times. Yeah. [28:43] >> Right. [28:44] >> Well, there's a lot of like weird occult [28:46] stuff going on with the Nazis, right? [28:49] >> And they were making like what looked [28:51] like a UFO. They were constructing these [28:54] things that looked like flying saucers, [28:56] >> right? [28:57] >> Yeah. [28:58] >> Um, you know the Travis Walton case? [29:00] >> Oh, very well. [29:01] >> Yeah. This is I have his bobblehead. he [29:03] came in here. Um, that's another guy [29:05] that went missing in the woods and it's [29:07] a similar story. It, you know, he was [29:11] taken aboard some sort of a craft, [29:13] multiple witnesses, including people who [29:15] hated him. One guy who he actually got [29:17] in a fist fight with earlier that day [29:19] and they all told the same story. They [29:21] all passed polygraph tests. He shows up [29:23] days later [29:25] um with this crazy story that he had [29:28] been hit by a beam of light. They took [29:30] him aboard this craft, fixed him, fixed [29:32] whatever happened to him and [29:35] communicated with him and then dropped [29:38] him back off. [29:40] I know Travis well. In fact, I was doing [29:42] a conference in Phoenix and he brought [29:45] his son to the conference because his [29:46] son wanted to me meet me because a lot [29:49] of my work focused around things that [29:51] happened to Travis. [29:53] And I I think Travis's case is probably [29:58] not unique and there's probably [30:00] thousands of people out there that just [30:03] don't want to talk about it. They just [30:04] want it to go away [30:06] >> cuz it's too weird and cuz you feel like [30:08] a fool. [30:09] >> Yeah. That and I think maybe they're [30:11] afraid that they're going to get pigeon [30:13] holed as what you just said. Odd, [30:14] strange. [30:15] >> You're a crazy person. [30:16] >> Yeah. [30:17] >> Yeah. [30:18] >> Yeah. Yeah, the Travis case is very [30:19] interesting cuz I I mean this is just [30:25] I mean I'm just saying this but most [30:27] people who lie they lie about a lot of [30:29] stuff. They don't just have one crazy [30:32] lie from the 1970s that they keep [30:35] repeating exactly the same way and have [30:38] witnesses. You know that's the whole [30:41] thing is very strange. Also the fact [30:42] that he went missing in the woods and [30:45] then showed up multiple days later. [30:47] There's nothing wrong with him. He's not [30:48] dehydrated. He's not starving to death. [30:52] He's fine. He's just weirded out. And he [30:55] has this crazy story. [30:58] And it's not like his story is unique [31:00] either. That's what's very strange. The [31:02] people that have been abducted, they all [31:04] have very similar stories. They have sim [31:07] similar stories about medical [31:08] examinations, being taken aboard a [31:10] craft, things communicating with them [31:12] telepathically. [31:14] you know, um there's there's no like [31:17] delusions of grandeur like you have [31:19] you're the chosen one, you're unique, [31:21] you're Neo, you're the one we wanted, we [31:23] came here for you. There's no nothing [31:25] kooky like that. It's all just they want [31:28] to know what's going on with the human [31:31] species and they find a specimen, they [31:34] do an examination, and it sounds [31:38] completely insane, but we do that. We do [31:42] that with species. We do that with other [31:44] things. We do that with primates. We do [31:46] that with all kinds of different animals [31:49] that we research. I mean, people, [31:52] there's probably someone doing it right [31:53] now in the Congo, probably looking for [31:54] some animals, you know, tranquiliz [31:57] tranquilizing some animal, doing studies [32:00] on it, releasing it back into the wild. [32:02] We do it all the time. Yeah. [32:05] >> One of the things I say at conferences [32:07] is, "What if we're the ant farm?" [32:09] >> Yeah, [32:10] >> that took a while to find. So, this is [32:12] the bullet. [32:14] So, this is um Thank you, Jamie. This is [32:18] the bullet that this guy shot and it hit [32:20] something right in front of him. It just [32:22] completely deformed. That bullet looks [32:24] like it hit a wall. Like it hit like [32:28] something like a a giant plate of steel [32:30] or something. I mean, it's just [32:31] completely flattened. That's not like a [32:33] bullet that hits an animal, [32:36] you know? bullets that hit well it could [32:38] hit bones and stuff and get distorted [32:40] but it wouldn't be intact like that. [32:42] That looks like an intact bullet that [32:44] just flattened out hitting something [32:46] completely immovable. [32:50] Very weird. [32:53] One of the things that Carl said that [32:56] they told him is when he got on that [32:58] craft is he said, "Hey, you have my [32:59] elk." And they said, "Yeah, it's Carl." [33:03] They said that we often come down to [33:05] your earth and we take animals and we [33:08] study them and [33:12] you happen to be one of the people that [33:14] was right there when we were taking [33:15] that. So, we took you too. [33:18] And I've heard this before from other [33:20] abductees that just like you said, we [33:23] look at and test animals. Apparently, [33:26] they're monitoring the health of our [33:28] planet by testing animals themselves. [33:33] So he said they communicated with him [33:35] telepathically. Yes. What did he say [33:38] they they talked to him about? [33:42] So the elk Why are they interested in [33:44] elk? That's a good question. And [33:48] >> because they're cool. Elk are very cool. [33:51] >> Pretty cool. Yes, they are. Um, now [33:55] there's an that's an interesting point [33:56] because there are more hunters that are [33:59] abducted or that disappear hunting elk [34:03] than any other animal. And it's not that [34:06] there's more hunters hunting elk. [34:07] There's more hunters hunting deer on the [34:10] whole in the United States, but for some [34:13] reason there's more hunters that [34:14] disappear hunting elk. And I've said [34:15] this in my books before. Well, for as a [34:18] hunter, what one thing that I would say [34:20] is that when you're hunting elk, you're [34:22] in the back country for the most part. [34:24] You're in wild remote areas with [34:27] mountains. You're in um a place with [34:30] very few people. It's very hard to get [34:32] to them. Um whereas deer hunting, a lot [34:35] of is done on farms, a lot of is done on [34:38] flat land. You know, a lot of treeand [34:40] hunting. deer, whitetailed deer [34:42] specifically in America, North America, [34:45] are the most hunted animal. Uh but if [34:48] you've ever gone whitetail hunting, a [34:50] lot of it is in and around farmland. And [34:53] um you you never very rarely at least [34:56] you're hunting whitetail deer in the [34:58] mountains, remote mountain ranges. uh mu [35:01] deer. You hunt mu deer in remote [35:03] mountain ranges, but whitetail deer, [35:06] they're they tend to populate around [35:08] humans and and around agriculture. [35:11] So, that kind of makes sense if they [35:13] want to be stealthy. If they're trying [35:16] to not be detected by as many people, [35:20] you would you would pro also you [35:23] probably if you were gonna abduct [35:25] someone and be reasonably sure that no [35:27] one was going to see you do it, you [35:30] would probably go where there's very few [35:32] people and just some random guy who's [35:37] decided to hike up to 10,000 ft and [35:40] chase a herd of elk. [35:42] Another thing I've heard from Carl is [35:46] that he was told that these entities, [35:49] whoever they are, have the ability to [35:52] freeze time and space. And remember what [35:55] I said, elk, the elk he was looking at, [35:58] he said he shot and they didn't move. [36:00] It's like they were frozen. And they [36:02] were frozen in that same position when [36:03] he got on the craft. [36:05] Time and space being that everything [36:08] around him, nobody could walk in, nobody [36:11] could walk out. It's like the time and [36:12] space that he and the entity and the elk [36:14] were in were frozen. [36:18] It's a hard thing to grasp, but I've [36:20] heard this before. It is a hard thing to [36:23] grasp. But the people that speculate on [36:25] how these [36:27] advanced species, whatever they are, [36:30] they're able to travel that there's some [36:33] sort of manipulation of spaceime that [36:36] it's not as simple as like what we do, [36:38] which is very crude. We do propulsion. [36:41] We burn things and push stuff out the [36:44] back and it makes stuff go forward. Or [36:46] we have an internal combustion engine [36:48] that does the same thing. It's makes [36:51] explosions inside the engine, burns [36:53] things, pushes the pistons around, [36:55] forces the transmission, and it moves. [36:58] What these things supposedly do, and [37:01] again, this is all just crazy talk, but [37:03] what they're able to do is manipulate [37:06] spaceime itself and instantaneously [37:09] travel from one place to the next cuz [37:11] they have a control over the universe in [37:15] a way that with us it's like completely [37:18] theoretical. Like there's this woman [37:20] that speculates that in the future [37:22] someday, you know, with many many many [37:25] advancements and who knows how many [37:26] years of we will be able to travel [37:28] quantumly like the way quantum particles [37:31] are entangled. She believes that perhaps [37:34] the entire universe works that way and [37:36] that everything is connected and that [37:39] this [37:42] thing that we have this idea that the [37:44] distance between stars is far too vast [37:47] for a human to travel because you can't [37:49] travel past the speed of light. And if [37:52] you did travel past the speed of light, [37:54] it would still take, you know, even if [37:55] you went like two times the speed of [37:57] light or three times the speed of light, [37:58] it would still take thousands and [37:59] thousands of years to just get to the [38:02] closest planets outside of our solar [38:04] system. And she thinks that one day [38:08] perhaps, if not humans or whatever is [38:10] coming after humans, we'll be able to [38:12] quantumly travel. And you would imagine [38:16] that would involve some sort of [38:19] manipulation of space and time. that we [38:22] can't quite understand [38:24] that we're just we're just we're talking [38:26] about it like it's magic. But again, if [38:29] you were talking to someone from the [38:31] 1400s about a cell phone, hey, I can [38:34] FaceTime my friend in Australia, they'd [38:36] go, "What the [ __ ] are you talking [38:38] about?" Well, I pick out this device in [38:41] my pocket that's as thin as a few slices [38:44] of paper and uh through that I can I can [38:48] like stare at my friend and he could see [38:50] me and I can see him. Like that's magic. [38:53] You're talking crazy talk. There's [38:54] nothing. There's no accord. There's no [38:56] nothing. Somehow or another. There's [38:58] like what are you sending that's being [39:00] received and it comes into HD video with [39:03] sound and it it perfectly lines up with [39:07] the way the person's talking. You hear [39:09] it in real time. That's crazy. That [39:11] doesn't even make sense. But yet we just [39:13] are so accustomed to it that it's [39:15] normal. Oh, I'm getting a FaceTime call [39:16] from my friend. Oh, hey. What's up, [39:18] buddy? You know, we think it's normal. [39:20] And then you got to imagine if you could [39:23] just push into the future and imagine [39:26] thousands of years of innovation in [39:27] technology. Like what what does that [39:30] look like? You know, communication used [39:32] to be you had to shout. You know, Bob's [39:35] over there 100 yards away. You have to [39:37] put your hands, we're going to the left. [39:39] You know, now you could just text them [39:42] or you could call them. and that the [39:47] ability to communicate at vast distances [39:50] will one day be very similar to the way [39:53] we travel. We can travel vast distances [39:57] instantaneously. [39:59] part of the entanglement idea that you [40:01] talked about. What if you're in Austin [40:04] and I go back to Whitefish, Montana? And [40:08] what if we had the ability to think, [40:10] "Hey, Joe, I forgot to tell you this [40:11] when I was on your show and I told you [40:14] by my mind." Now, people would say, "Oh, [40:16] that's stupid. That's ridiculous." But [40:19] I've talked to people that are way [40:20] smarter than me that say that part of [40:22] this entanglement is is that what if [40:24] you're in space and you're on the far [40:26] side of the moon? And what if we all [40:28] have that ability right now to affect [40:31] others in other places and our thinking [40:34] and our mind is really more powerful and [40:37] we are this spiderweb of entanglement [40:40] that we don't quite understand right [40:41] now. And let me where this came from is [40:45] George Knap been on his show like 30 [40:48] times. He had a guy named Colum Kellaher [40:51] who was the head of all investigations [40:53] for Bigalow at Skinwalker Ranch. And [40:56] George said, "Hey Dave, Keller wants you [40:59] to come out to Las Vegas. He thinks some [41:02] of the work that they're doing at the [41:03] ranch right now overlaps with your work [41:06] on missing people." [41:08] So I came out to Las Vegas three or four [41:10] times, met with Keller, and we talked [41:12] about just what you're talking about [41:13] right now, this overlapping of [41:16] understanding consciousness because it's [41:18] much more complex than some people are [41:21] willing or even for us to understand. [41:24] But what if what's happening on Earth [41:27] right now, whether it's abductions, [41:30] cattle mutilations, UFOs, [41:33] is really something that is so beyond [41:35] us. We try to think in rational terms, [41:37] well, they're taking us for our sperm or [41:40] they're taking us for our eggs. What if [41:41] it's something a lot lot more deep than [41:46] really we could comprehend right now? [41:48] >> Like what? [41:50] >> I don't know. I'm asking you, Joe. [41:55] But he his point being that all the time [41:58] they spent almost 20 years at that ranch [42:00] investigating things. And he tells me [42:03] about this one incident and he says, [42:05] "I've got a physicist up on the hill [42:08] with another researcher. [42:10] It's 2:00 in the morning. They're [42:12] looking down at the meadow and they see [42:14] this bright light [42:16] and this bright light starts to get [42:18] bigger. And if you could tell your guy, [42:21] he could pick it up right now on uh if [42:23] you go to Amazon to the movie American [42:26] Sasquatch Man or Legend. It's my movie. [42:29] We have it there. And it starts getting [42:31] bigger. [42:32] >> Uhhuh. [42:33] >> And one guy doesn't have night vision. [42:36] The other guy does. And this round thing [42:39] keeps getting bigger and bigger till [42:42] eventually it's like you're looking down [42:44] a tube. And he says it's almost [42:47] three-dimensional because you could see [42:48] something at the far end of the tube [42:52] and the physicist is handing the night [42:54] vision back and they're sharing it. [42:56] Eventually the tube gets to be about [42:58] this big [43:00] that something twice the size of you and [43:02] I could crawl through. [43:05] All of a sudden they see something [43:06] crawling down the tube. [43:10] It crawls out. It jumps down onto the [43:13] land and they see it's so dark even with [43:17] night vision that they could just see a [43:18] silhouette and it's bipeedal [43:21] seven or eightt tall all black in color. [43:24] >> Is it that [43:26] >> is this it? [43:27] >> No. [43:28] >> Okay. [43:30] >> Well, sound like it sound like what [43:32] you're talking [43:33] >> is that the the documentary you're [43:35] talking about? [43:36] >> No, it's not mine. [43:37] >> Something different. [43:38] >> Yeah. [43:39] >> Sasquatch. American Sasquatch. [43:40] >> Man, myth or monster. [43:42] >> Isn't that what you said? [43:43] >> Is that it? [43:44] >> That's it. Yeah, [43:45] >> that's okay. [43:46] >> So, this is your film? [43:47] >> That is the film, but that's not what [43:49] I'm talking about. [43:50] >> Where is it in the film? Do you [43:51] remember? [43:52] >> It's near the near the end, like [43:54] threequarters of the way through it. [43:56] It's with my interview with Keller, and [43:58] he's talking about it and and this [44:01] thing, and then it walks away on on two [44:03] feet. And when we talk about this, he [44:08] said, "Doesn't make any sense to us." [44:10] You know, did we just see a portal open [44:12] up and an entity from another dimension [44:16] crawl through into our dimension? And is [44:19] that the access point that they're [44:21] using? And can they open this at certain [44:24] times and close it at certain times at [44:26] will? [44:28] And really that was the first time that [44:30] I had heard this from someone credible [44:33] that this can happen. And if you think [44:35] about the people at the ranch today, [44:37] they said, "Well, the amount of energy [44:40] it takes to open a portal is so many [44:42] times greater than an atom bomb that it [44:45] doesn't make sense that that could be [44:47] the answer to this." Well, maybe their [44:49] answer to what a portal is is different. [44:51] But what these guys saw doesn't make a [44:54] lot of sense to us. Well, the whole [44:56] Bigfoot thing doesn't make a lot of [44:58] sense. One of the reasons why the [44:59] Bigfoot thing doesn't make a lot of [45:00] sense is that um Native Americans don't [45:04] have a lot of mythological creatures. [45:07] It's not like they have a ton of dragons [45:10] and demons and pixies and wood sprites. [45:14] There's not. But there's over a hund [45:16] Isn't Didn't we look this up? The the [45:18] the the name for Sasquatch? [45:21] >> Yeah, there's a bunch. There's like 50 [45:24] different names that they have for this [45:26] one thing that they universally [45:29] described as a bipeedal hairy ape-like [45:33] creature that's 8 to 10 feet tall. [45:36] And there's so many sightings of this [45:40] one thing. It's not like people keep [45:43] talking about different animals like I [45:46] saw an elephant that has six legs. No, [45:49] it's always bipeedal homminids. [45:54] It's weird. It's a weird So, because [45:56] like [45:58] I've never seen compelling Bigfoot [46:01] footage. It all looks [ __ ] The [46:03] Patterson footage I think is nonsense. I [46:05] think it's a guy in a monkey suit for [46:07] sure. I think uh most of what you see in [46:12] terms of like photographic evidence is [46:14] nonsense. But there's too many stories. [46:17] There's too many stories for me to [46:19] completely dismiss it. And I've always [46:22] wondered if it's some sort of an [46:25] interdimensional experience and that [46:28] this thing may be the fact that it's in [46:32] the woods and that they happen under [46:37] heightened awareness because you're in [46:40] the woods and you're probably very [46:41] nervous and freaked out. So, you're [46:43] probably in a very bizarre state of mind [46:46] and all of a sudden you encounter [46:48] something that makes zero sense and the [46:52] same thing gets encountered by people [46:54] over and over again. And you could write [46:56] that. Now, if you're a cynical person or [46:58] a rational person, which I'm neither one [47:00] of those, you you could you could write [47:02] it off and you could say, "Well, there's [47:05] an archetype. People have talked about [47:07] this creature, you know, for so long [47:09] that that's what you expect to see. So [47:10] that's what you make yourself see, you [47:13] know, maybe maybe it's a bear that walks [47:17] on two legs because we know they do [47:19] that. Particularly black bears, they [47:21] walk on two legs all the time. I've seen [47:22] them walk on two legs. It's very weird. [47:25] But they don't describe it like a bear. [47:28] They describe it like an ape. They they [47:30] they say it has long arms like an ape [47:34] and that it looks at you and that these [47:36] things exist in the forest like deep in [47:40] the forest where there's no people and [47:42] then when people go out there they [47:44] encounter them and the story is just [47:48] it's like the UFO abduction story. It's [47:50] so similar. It's so similar over and [47:54] over again. like a very similar story. [47:56] And you've always got to separate the [47:59] kooky stories because there's always a [48:01] bunch of crazy people that make things [48:02] up. There's a bunch of people that are [48:04] probably on psychiatric drugs or they're [48:06] tripping balls on mushrooms or whatever [48:07] it is. There's a bunch of people that [48:09] see things that maybe aren't there at [48:10] all. But then there's enough of these [48:14] stories where you got to go, man, if [48:16] just one of these is true, one out of a [48:18] hundred. And then there's thousands of [48:20] them. Like, how what is going on? [48:25] Not an ape. It's not a gorilla. If it [48:28] was, we'd have it in the zoo. And we [48:30] don't. The It walks like a man. Ape and [48:34] gorillas don't walk like a man. [48:36] >> Well, Gigan Giganthopythecus did, right? [48:38] >> No, [48:39] >> it didn't. There's no evidence it was [48:40] bipedal at all. I thought it was the jaw [48:42] structure. So, they have one piece of [48:46] jaw and a bunch of teeth and there's a [48:48] lot of theories behind that, but there's [48:50] no evidence it was bipedal. [48:52] >> Oh, that's number one. Number two, [48:54] there's no evidence of it's ever been in [48:56] North America, [48:58] right? But the sightings that they find [49:00] of this thing are in Alaska and the [49:02] Pacific Northwest primarily. This is [49:05] where you get a lot of them. And the [49:08] idea would be that when the bearing land [49:11] bridge was around before the ice age or [49:14] during the ice age when the ocean levels [49:17] were much lower and there was more land [49:19] exposed that these things could walk [49:21] across Asia like we know the shortfaced [49:23] bear did and we also know people made it [49:26] from Siberia into North America. [49:30] So let's just let's just take [49:32] Gigantopithecus. That wouldn't be some [49:35] an environment it could live in though. [49:38] >> That was that was a jungle animal. [49:40] >> Right. [49:40] >> Right. In Asia. [49:41] >> Correct. [49:43] >> So let's let's getting back to that. But [49:45] there's all before you go on, but [49:46] there's also [49:47] >> Gigantopithecus. [49:49] They found less than a hundred years [49:51] ago. So, these um I believe they were [49:55] anthropologists and they were searching [49:57] for different bones in an apothecary [49:59] shop in China and they found a moler [50:02] that was extraordinarily large, like way [50:05] too large and it was a primate mer and [50:07] they were like, "What is this?" And so [50:09] they took them to where they found it [50:11] and then as they started digging they [50:12] found some more bones and some different [50:14] things. I don't how much stuff have they [50:17] found of Gigantoythecus? [50:19] >> Only jaws and teeth. [50:21] >> That's it. Yeah, it says, yeah, this [50:22] says it was. [50:23] >> Now, imagine if they never found that. [50:25] Here's the here's the question. If they [50:26] never found any of that stuff. Show me [50:29] what they got. [50:30] >> It doesn't say what I mean, it says what [50:31] they have here. [50:32] >> Okay. We only have jaws and teeth for [50:34] Gigantopithecus, not pelvis, leg bones, [50:36] or full skeleton. So, its exact gate [50:38] can't be observed directly. Researchers [50:40] infer its posture and locomotion by [50:42] comparing its anatomy and evolutionary [50:44] relationships with living great apes, [50:46] especially orangutans, [50:48] which are all quadripedal and not [50:51] habitual bipeds. So why do they think [50:53] it's okay? No, gigantopithecus is not [50:56] thought to have been bipedal. Scientific [50:58] consensus is that was a large mostly [51:00] quadripedal ape. So why does some people [51:02] say it's bipeedal? Where the idea came [51:05] from? Okay, a minority of researchers [51:07] and many Bigfoot enthusiasts have [51:09] proposed a bipeedal gigantopithecus, [51:12] often linking it to Sasquatch. But those [51:14] arguments rely on speculative [51:16] interpretations of jaw shape rather than [51:19] solid postranial fossils. These bipeedal [51:22] reconstructions are generally rejected [51:24] by specialists in fossil apes who regard [51:27] them as highly unlikely given current [51:29] evidence. So, Perplexity, our AI [51:32] sponsor, says no. Says Bigfoot something [51:36] different. So, but the thing is, if [51:39] Gigantopithecus was a real thing and all [51:42] we have is these a tiny amount of [51:45] fossilized bones and and teeth. [51:49] How many things make fossils? Very few. [51:52] Very few. So, there very well could have [51:55] been a bipeedal ape like a human that [51:57] was much larger. I mean, we know at one [52:00] point in time bipeedal homminids like, [52:03] you know, the early versions of human [52:05] beings were very hairy and some of them [52:08] were larger than us. [52:11] We just don't have fossils cuz most [52:13] things don't leave fossils. Like the [52:15] fossil record is incredibly incomplete, [52:17] right? [52:18] >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. So, you know, in East [52:21] Texas there's a lot of Bigfoot [52:22] sightings. [52:23] >> Really? East Texas. [52:24] >> East Texas. [52:25] >> This episode is brought to you by [52:27] Visible. Ah, spring is in the air, which [52:30] means time for some spring cleaning. [52:33] We're cleaning out the garage and [52:35] finally tossing those mystery cords. But [52:38] while you're cleaning out your junk [52:39] drawer, take a look at your wireless [52:41] bill. Don't fall for wireless traps, [52:45] tacked on fees, confusing bills, and [52:47] empty promises. Join Visible and cut out [52:51] the nonsense. With Visible, you get [52:54] unlimited 5G data and hotspot on [52:57] Verizon's network for one flat cost. [53:00] Just $25 a month. Taxes and fees [53:04] included. It's everything you need and [53:07] nothing you don't. Plus, for a limited [53:10] time, new members can get the Visible [53:13] plan for just $20 a month for one year [53:17] using code fresh start. Refresh your [53:20] wireless with Visible. Head to [53:23] visible.com to get started. Terms apply. [53:26] Limited time offer. Subject to change. [53:29] See visible.com for plan features and [53:32] network management details. [53:35] What kind of uh terrain? [53:37] >> Uh [53:39] mushy, swampy. [53:42] >> Okay. [53:42] >> Uh wet. Yeah. Right on the border. East [53:46] Texas. [53:47] >> Uh Tennessee. the border of what? [53:49] Oklahoma. Uh, no, down near the ocean. [53:52] >> Oh, okay. So, [53:56] when we talked about you you were [53:58] talking about Alaska, Pacific Northwest, [54:00] a lot of Bigfoot sightings. [54:01] >> Mhm. [54:02] >> A lot of Bigfoot sightings in Tennessee, [54:04] too. Kentucky. And [54:06] >> a lot of moonshine in Kentucky. [54:08] Tennessee, too. [54:09] >> Yes. A lot of people smoking crank. [54:11] >> Yes. [54:13] So, after I was a policeman, I had a [54:16] master's degree. I worked uh technology [54:18] for a while. I had masters in HR and I [54:20] ran HR organizations. [54:22] Did that for five, six, seven years. I [54:25] said I had enough and I'm leaving. I had [54:27] young kids. I was going to leave with my [54:29] family and have fun. [54:32] Two founders of this company, super [54:34] rich, come to me and they say, "Hey [54:35] Dave, we got a job for you at your own [54:39] pace, at your own will. Here's the [54:41] story." When they were younger, they [54:43] didn't know each other. They grew up in [54:44] different parts. They went up into the [54:47] woods with their families, backpacking, [54:49] camping, having fun. They got up in the [54:52] middle of the night, take a leak, and [54:56] independently didn't know each other. [54:58] They saw Bigfoot. [55:00] They found each other. They formed this [55:03] company, made millions of dollars. One [55:05] day they're at lunch and they start [55:07] talking to each other and they had the [55:08] same experience. They said, "Wow, that's [55:11] that's freaking bizarre. So, let's get [55:13] to the bottom of it." So, I'm leaving. [55:16] They know I have an investigative [55:17] background. They said, "Hey, we're going [55:18] to hire you. We want you to go find out [55:20] if it's true, false, or hoax." They [55:24] hired you to go check to see if Bigfoot [55:26] was real. Flipped the whole bill. They [55:29] said, "You do it at your own pace. Own [55:31] will. We'll pay for everything." I said, [55:33] "Not interested." They came back to me [55:36] like four or five times. Finally, at the [55:37] end of a year, my wife is divorcing me. [55:40] I now have only 50% custody. I have 50% [55:44] of my life open to do whatever I want. [55:46] They came at me again. I said, "Okay, [55:48] very I'm going to shorten it down to [55:50] from what took five years to five [55:52] minutes." [55:55] Tennessee, [55:57] Great Smoky Mountain National Park. [55:59] There was a man there named uh Scott [56:02] Carpenter. Scott, rest his soul, has [56:05] since died. But he took me into an area [56:08] in the park [56:10] and he said, "Dave, this is the part [56:11] where I've I've had all kinds of [56:13] evidence." [56:14] >> What kind of evidence? [56:16] >> Footprints, [56:18] hair, [56:20] >> hair, [56:20] >> hair. [56:21] >> So, has he ever had the hair analyzed? [56:24] >> Okay. [56:24] >> So, we start talking about it. How can [56:26] we get a good sample of hair? So, I [56:29] said, 'You know, with Bear, they take [56:31] bear samples and DNA samples from bear [56:33] all the time. [56:35] Let's try this. Let's take some [56:37] packaging tape, wrap it inside out on [56:39] the outside of a tree. Put something at [56:42] the fork of the tree, some kind of food, [56:45] whatever, honey, something. If they lean [56:49] up against the tree, it's going to pull [56:50] the hair out, which we need the follicle [56:52] for the DNA. [56:54] Let's see if that works. He says, [56:56] "Billiant, we did it. It worked. In that [57:00] area, we had tracks." Now, just so you [57:03] know, and everyone else knows, there's [57:05] hair and fiber experts in the world, and [57:08] they testify in superior court all the [57:09] time. Uh, like out in the lobby, you [57:12] have all these different kinds of [57:13] animals. If we took a hair from one [57:15] animal and gave it to a hair and fiber [57:16] expert, he could tell you within two [57:18] minutes what animal that came from [57:20] because every hair looks different. So, [57:23] we took those hairs, went to hair and [57:24] fiber expert, [57:26] and they said, 'Well, where'd you get [57:27] that?' And I go, "What do you mean?" [57:29] "We've never seen that hair before. It's [57:31] not classified. It doesn't exist." [57:35] Hm. Okay. So, that means we're on to [57:37] something. So, then I took [57:39] >> Does it have follicle? Can they do a DNA [57:41] on it or is it just hair? [57:42] >> They did. [57:43] >> Okay. [57:43] >> It did. So, I I called the I was living [57:46] in California at the time. I called the [57:47] University of California, Davis, the [57:49] biggest animal lab in the world. [57:52] And they said, "What do you got?" I [57:53] explained it. They said, "Bigfoot, we're [57:54] not touching it. We don't want anything [57:56] to do with it." I went to University of [57:59] Texas, [58:01] UC Davis. I went to like six or seven. [58:03] No one would touch it. But then I found [58:05] a woman that testified in the courts [58:08] here in Texas as a DNA expert. I called [58:12] her up. Her name is Melba Ketchum. [58:15] Dr. Ketchum, I have this sample here. [58:18] Would you be willing to do DNA analysis [58:20] on it? Absolutely. It's going to cost [58:22] you so many thousands of dollars. I go, [58:24] "No problem. We've got somebody who's [58:25] going to pay." So she goes, "Okay, let's [58:28] do one better, Dave. Send me the sample. [58:30] Let me look at it first. I'm going to [58:31] give it to my hair and fiber expert." [58:33] They look at it. Fiber hair and fiber [58:36] expert says, "It's nothing we've ever [58:38] seen. So that's good." So she goes, [58:41] "Okay, here's here's what we're going to [58:42] do. Can you get any more samples?" [58:45] I said, "I I have an idea. Let me try." [58:48] So, I go on coast to coast and I I laid [58:52] it out. I said, "Hey, we have these [58:54] samples. We're looking for hair samples. [58:56] Don't don't [ __ ] us because we'll [58:58] know right away. Send us hair samples [59:01] with with everything attached and we're [59:05] going to send it to a lab. You don't [59:06] have to pay the bill. We got 125 valid [59:10] samples that were not deer, analopee, [59:14] bear, whatever." [59:16] She goes through the DNA analysis on it. [59:18] Cost I think it cost us $400,000 at the [59:22] end of the day. It's a lot less [59:24] expensive now. [59:26] And they all so hair will will give you [59:30] mitochondrial DNA from the maternal [59:32] side, but it won't give you fraternal [59:35] DNA from the father's side. That you [59:38] need nuclear DNA, blood, tissue, saliva. [59:43] And we got some of those son of a gun. [59:48] At the end of the day, the DNA comes [59:50] back [59:52] 12 to 15,000 years to the Middle East on [59:55] the mother's side. [59:58] Father's side, it doesn't exist in [60:00] Genbank. 352 billion base pairs of DNA [60:04] does not exist. The father's DNA does [60:08] not exist. Jenbang says it's impossible. [60:12] Since that time, other people have come [60:15] forward and said, "Hey, you know, on [60:17] elongated skulls, [60:20] we've had the same problem. We can't [60:21] find the fraternal DNA just like you." [60:24] That's a guy named La Marzulli that was [60:27] doing the research there. And then Ron [60:29] Morhead, who is doing other DNA studies [60:32] on elongated skulls in South America, [60:35] said the same thing. That's odd, Dave. [60:39] So [60:40] the f the maternal we understand the [60:43] fraternal we don't and [60:47] the the DNA they did a paper about it [60:50] it's online [60:53] had a lot of people say oh you know what [60:55] that's BS it's it's bad [60:59] but nobody else has ever done a test and [61:02] I could get you more hair within two [61:03] weeks if we wanted to [61:06] nobody wants to test it I'll passed it. [61:08] What do we have to do? [61:09] >> The truth is The truth is The truth is [61:13] >> Jamie, you ready to go? Let's go. Let's [61:15] get some tape. [61:17] The truth is [61:18] >> it'll all come back the same. And I [61:19] believe that the researchers who have [61:21] done it, they've gotten the same [61:23] results. [61:24] >> And so if you say that it on the [61:27] fraternal side it doesn't exist, on the [61:29] maternal side it's showing thousands of [61:32] Explain that again. So, [61:35] like I'm Greek. [61:37] >> So, they could they could chase my DNA [61:39] backwards through time to I don't know, [61:41] Greece, [61:42] >> right? [61:42] >> 10 15,000 years ago. Well, they were [61:45] able to chase the maternal side back to [61:47] the Middle East 12 to 15,000 years. [61:49] >> And what did they say it was? [61:52] >> That's all they said. But what they're [61:53] saying is is that, and a lot of people [61:55] have picked up on this, well, that has a [61:57] lot of religious connotations to it. [62:02] Why does it have religious connotations [62:03] to it? [62:04] >> Because of the Middle East 12 to 15,000 [62:06] years, [62:10] >> right? But why is that religious? It's a [62:14] part of the world 12 to 15,000 years [62:16] ago. What what gives it religious [62:17] connotations other than the fact that [62:20] that's the origins of a lot of [62:22] religions? That's it. [62:24] >> Right. But it's also humans and [62:25] different animals lived there. Like [62:27] there's probably deer down there that [62:29] weren't religious at all. and you know [62:31] their DNA tracks back to that too. Uh [62:33] specific results she reported she [62:35] claimed 111 samples from 34 North [62:37] American sites produced two patterns [62:39] human MTD DNA and unusual or novel [62:44] nuclear sequences that supposedly did [62:46] not match known animals. Her [62:48] interpretation was that about 15,000 [62:51] years ago, an unknown hominin male [62:53] population interbred with modern human [62:55] females, leading to a hybrid lineage [62:58] whose descendants are today's supposed [63:00] Sasquatch. How and where it was [63:03] published. Study did not appear in a [63:04] normal established peer-reviewed [63:06] journal. Instead, it was put into an [63:08] obscure outlet called Denovo Scientific [63:11] Journal, which Ketchum herself [63:14] effectively controlled to get the paper [63:16] online. [63:17] Science reporters and skeptics noted the [63:20] absence of transparent peerreview, the [63:23] payw wall for a self-published paper, [63:25] and the lack of independent labs [63:27] reproducing her findings. But did [63:29] independent labs try to reproduce her [63:31] findings? That's the question. [63:32] Scientific criticism. Genetics, [63:35] geneticists and forensic biologists who [63:37] examined the data and methodology have [63:40] repeatedly pointed to contamination and [63:42] poor lab practice as the most likely [63:45] explanation for her hybrid sequences. [63:48] analysis noted that the MTD DNA being [63:50] 100% modern human is exactly what you [63:53] would expect from contaminated or human [63:56] origin samples and that the odd nuclear [63:58] sequences are consistent with mixed DNA [64:01] sequencing errors or lowquality data not [64:04] a new species. current status of her DNA [64:08] claims. No major genetics lab or [64:11] independent research group has [64:12] replicated Ketchum's results or [64:14] confirmed a novel hominin genome [64:17] corresponding to Bigfoot. In mainstream [64:19] science, her study is treated as an [64:21] example of flawed junk science [64:24] interesting to Bigfoot enthusiasts but [64:26] offering no accepted evidence that [64:29] Sasquatch exists. But here's the thing. [64:31] Did anybody else try to test those [64:36] things? [64:36] >> No. And let me explain that argument [64:39] they just used. [64:41] >> They're talking to a bunch of idiots. So [64:43] when they say it's contaminated, [64:45] >> right? [64:46] >> So let's say I contaminated the sample, [64:49] >> right? [64:49] >> Well, Joe, my dad was Russian. [64:53] >> Mhm. [64:53] >> The contaminated sample would show on [64:55] the m fraternal side Russian, [64:57] >> right? [64:57] >> It wouldn't show nothing, [64:59] >> right? That's why that argument makes no [65:02] sense. [65:03] >> Well, I'm not a geneticist, so I don't [65:04] know if it makes sense. [65:05] >> Yeah. [65:06] >> You know what I'm saying? Like if if [65:07] that you could say, "Oh, this is why, [65:09] you know, if you had someone who [65:10] understood DNA and contamination and the [65:13] whole process, they could maybe explain [65:14] it in a better way." [65:17] So, what the idea that humans interbred [65:21] with things is not a new idea. You know, [65:24] I read something recently. Um, I [65:27] actually watched a YouTube video and [65:28] then read an article. I think we talked [65:30] about this, pretty sure we did, where [65:33] they believe that Neanderl, they used to [65:36] think that Neanderl was a a subspecies, [65:38] like a different version of humans and [65:40] that they interbred with us. There's a [65:44] group of people that now are speculating [65:46] that Neandertol was the result of humans [65:51] breeding with another ancient hominant [65:55] and that that created Neandertol. So [65:58] it's not that we interbred with [66:00] Neandertol, but that humans actually [66:03] created Neandertol by breeding with this [66:06] other homminid. [66:08] So there's only one country in the world [66:11] that ever took this topic seriously. [66:13] >> Which country? [66:14] >> Russia. [66:16] >> They took their science academy and took [66:18] the five top scientists. This happened [66:20] 40 years ago. And they started studying [66:23] what was called Almasti, the same as our [66:26] Bigfoot. [66:27] >> Okay? [66:27] >> And [66:29] I'm not bullshitting you. This is 100% [66:31] true. Two of their scientists came to [66:33] the US. I met one of them at a [66:37] conference in Colorado seven or eight [66:39] years ago. And I walk into the room and [66:44] he's holding both of my books as I walk [66:46] in. And he says, "Dave, you're the only [66:48] guy to tell the truth out of everybody [66:51] out here. What you're saying about the [66:52] DNA, what you're saying about the the [66:55] lineage is 100% fact. It's what we [66:58] found. And we know that they aren't any [67:01] kind of ape or gorilla. It's it's a [67:04] human hybrid [67:06] that people don't understand. [67:10] >> So, did the Russians think that it [67:11] exists currently? [67:12] >> 100%. [67:14] >> So, how are they hiding? [67:15] >> How are they hiding? [67:17] >> Yeah. [67:18] >> So, if you think about we don't even [67:20] have the ability to do something with a [67:22] DNA like they like whatever this is. [67:25] >> It's making a hybrid, [67:27] >> right? [67:27] >> Okay. So something [67:31] far greater than us has learned to [67:33] manipulate DNA. [67:35] And if you think that Bigfoot is [67:38] interdimensional, [67:40] then wherever that came from [67:43] probably makes a whole lot more sense [67:46] scientifically than something [67:48] organically made here. [67:51] And there is there in lies the reason [67:53] that we've haven't found a body. [67:56] Uh, it can move in and out like it did [67:59] through that tube at Skinwalker Ranch. [68:02] And there's footage in our movie of what [68:06] appears to be a Bigfoot [68:09] evaporating into nothingness. [68:11] >> What footage is this? [68:13] >> Filmed by Scott Carpenter. [68:14] >> What is it called? What's the the same [68:17] one that we're just talking about? [68:17] >> American Sasquatch. [68:18] >> Can we see that footage? Where is that [68:20] in the film? [68:21] >> Um, it's during my interview with Scott. [68:25] And so who took this footage? [68:26] >> Scott. And what year was this taken? [68:33] >> Sometime in the last 10 years. [68:35] >> Okay. And it shows something evaporating [68:39] like that. There's it looks like a [68:41] Bigfoot evaporating into nothing. [68:44] What what you see is something kind of [68:46] like smokiness looking down a trail. [68:50] >> Uhhuh. And then it slowly evolves [68:53] to look like something that you and I [68:55] would call a Bigfoot. Okay. [69:00] So, [69:02] what you're saying is that we're not [69:03] dealing with a [69:06] standard biological organism. We're [69:09] dealing with something that's probably [69:11] the product of some advanced species and [69:16] that they've created this thing and this [69:18] thing has the ability to move in ways [69:22] and appear and reappear in ways that [69:25] don't make any sense to us. [69:27] >> Correct. Well, that would make sense if [69:30] it was true. And again, putting that [69:33] [ __ ] tinfoil hat on tight right now. [69:37] That would make sense if you think about [69:38] how many sightings there are and that [69:41] there are no bones and there's no body. [69:43] No one's found anything. There's [69:44] nothing. There's been footprints. The [69:47] footprints are weird. So, uh I'd like to [69:50] dismiss the footprints. Like, oh, come [69:51] on. Somebody just like made a fake [69:53] footprint. The problem is there's dermal [69:55] ridges on these footprints. Some of them [69:58] exhibit what's very similar to [70:00] fingerprints [70:01] and that's very strange. And these are [70:05] going back decades. So super hard to [70:08] reproduce something like that. And [70:10] someone you would have I mean you'd have [70:12] to be a very very advanced person and [70:16] have some sort of uh incredible ability [70:19] to manipulate material science just to [70:22] just to be able to create something that [70:25] recreates a dermal ridge and then use it [70:30] and make footprints with it that are [70:32] similar to what like a a creature would [70:35] make. It was very heavy moving through [70:38] the ground and pressing down on moist [70:41] ground or mud and leaving footprints [70:44] that have fingerprints in it. It's weird [70:47] because these are not it's not something [70:49] like you know I weigh like 205 lbs or [70:52] something like that. Like it's not like [70:53] that. It's like something that weighs [70:55] like 700 lb like deep into the ground. [70:59] It's weird. [71:01] >> Abnormally heavy. [71:02] >> Yeah. Abnormally heavy. large feet, but [71:06] again, no bones, no nothing. And the [71:08] only DNA it's like, you know, there's [71:12] it's disputed. But of course, people are [71:13] going to dispute everything. No one's [71:14] going to look at it and go, "This is [71:16] definitely not human." You know, they're [71:18] going to go, "Well, who did this? How'd [71:19] she do it?" You know, oh, this is a lab [71:23] that's like not not doing it well, and [71:26] they're publishing in some journal [71:27] behind a payw wall. This is nonsense. [71:30] But then you have to think, well, okay, [71:32] but are any other reputable labs, [71:36] these reputable labs, are they [71:37] interested in doing this work? Have they [71:39] done the work? Have they taken the same [71:41] stuff and done it through the exact same [71:42] process, but not found the same results [71:45] that she had, or is there no other [71:46] studies? Seems like there's no other [71:48] legitimate studies of the same DNA. Dr. [71:51] Ketchum took that DNA to four certified [71:55] labs. One of them was the University of [71:57] Texas. And all of those labs got the [72:00] same result. [72:03] She extracted it. They did the analysis. [72:06] She did the comparison to Genbank. And [72:09] she did this all herself or she had [72:10] other scientists do it. [72:12] >> So she wrote a white paper and six [72:14] different PhDs wrote it. [72:17] The the slam job there. [72:20] I I think it's interesting because have [72:22] you heard of an organization called [72:24] BFRO? [72:25] >> No. biggest organization in the United [72:27] States for Bigfoot sightings. [72:29] >> Oh, okay. Bigfoot research organization. [72:31] Yeah. Yeah. I from finding Bigfoot. [72:34] >> Right. Right. So, a man named Wally [72:37] Hersam was their benefactor. He gave him [72:40] millions of dollars over the years and [72:42] he they had one job, [72:45] find DNA. [72:48] 10 15 years they said they couldn't find [72:50] it. We found it in less than a year. [72:54] Wally came over when we had the DNA and [72:57] looked at the results, met with Dr. [72:59] Ketchum, said, "I am completely done. [73:03] You guys have proven to me exactly what [73:04] it is. I now know what it is." Pulled [73:07] all of his funding at that point. He was [73:10] out of the Bigfoot world. And he goes, [73:12] "You guys did what nobody else could [73:14] do." [73:16] How come there's no good camera trap [73:19] photos? You know, like there's a lot of [73:21] trail cameras out there that hunters [73:23] use. [73:24] >> How come there's no good trail cam [73:26] photos? Do you think the idea is that [73:28] these things know that cameras are [73:29] there? [73:32] >> So, I think they have that ability to [73:33] look in the infrared range [73:36] and they just stay away. Well, if they [73:40] are from somewhere else and you know, [73:43] we're assuming they're primitive because [73:45] they're they're covered in hair, but [73:48] what if they have some sort of psychic [73:52] ability or some sort of intellect beyond [73:56] what we would attach to an ape and they [73:59] understand what cameras are? [74:02] >> So, do you know what the hitchhiker [74:03] effect is? [74:04] >> No. [74:06] So at Skinwalker Ranch, the [74:08] investigators coming onto that ranch [74:10] when they left and they went home, they [74:12] took those entities home with them. And [74:15] the entities didn't ever bother the [74:17] scientists. They bothered the relatives, [74:19] the wives. [74:21] They did spooky things. They'd come [74:23] around, show up in the home, chase the [74:25] kids around in the yard. [74:26] >> What kind of entities? [74:28] >> A variety of things. sometimes orbs, [74:30] sometimes silhouettes of people, but [74:34] things that never happened before [74:35] happened after these scientists went [74:37] home. And they talked about it on their [74:39] show, and it's happened a lot. [74:42] >> One of the things that happens to people [74:44] that study Bigfoot is they have the same [74:47] hitchhiker effect. It doesn't matter [74:49] where you go for some reason. And you [74:52] were talking about, you know, maybe they [74:54] read your mind or something. There's [74:55] something there's some kind of effect [74:57] there that they'll they'll follow you [74:59] wherever you go. As an example, I live [75:02] kind of in the middle of nowhere and [75:04] there's big woods behind my house and I [75:08] was walking behind the house one day. [75:10] One track, middle of a muddy trail, no [75:13] other tracks any place else. 17 in, [75:16] just one track. [75:19] I can't tell you how many times other [75:21] friends of mine and researchers have had [75:22] the exact same thing happen. In the [75:25] movie I interviewed, I think seven or [75:27] eight researchers, all the best ones, [75:29] they all say this has happened to them. [75:32] It's that hitchhiker effect that they [75:33] talk about at Skinwalker Ranch, which [75:36] goes to the point of it being something [75:38] extradimensional. [75:40] I went to Skinwalker Ranch with my [75:41] friend Duncan a few years back. We I was [75:44] doing this show for the sci-fi channel [75:45] called Joe Rogan Questions Everything. [75:47] And one of the things we did was we went [75:48] to Skinwalker Ranch and we talked to a [75:51] bunch of people there [75:52] >> and you know what some of them were just [75:55] clearly full of [ __ ] But there was this [75:57] one guy who was not and um he didn't [76:01] have a lot of stories but he said uh [76:03] there was this one experience that he [76:06] had where these orbs made it into his [76:09] house and this orb flew through his wall [76:12] was inside of his home and it seemed [76:14] like it was interacting with him and [76:17] then it was like paused frozen in front [76:20] of him and then took off. This guy [76:22] seemed like [76:24] a completely rational, regular guy. He, [76:28] like I said, he didn't have a bunch of [76:30] crazy stories about other things. I [76:31] forget what his job was, but it was a [76:33] regular job, regular guy. Seemed totally [76:35] normal to talk to, but he said he had [76:37] this one inexplicable experience. He [76:39] said it was very strange. He said this [76:42] thing just flew into his home. He said [76:45] it was like I think he said it was like [76:47] the size of a softball, maybe a little [76:48] larger, and it seemed like it was [76:51] interacting with them. So, uh, one of [76:54] the people I interviewed for the movie [76:56] was a former Navajo Ranger. You ever [76:59] hear of those? Yes. So, they went to the [77:02] Federal Law Enforcement Training Center, [77:03] full law enforcement credentials, super [77:06] smart guy. He comes back, he works 10, [77:09] 15 years for the Navajo Rangers. One [77:11] day, the lieutenant calls him in. He and [77:13] his partner, they say, "You got a new [77:15] assignment." "Oh, what's that?" "You're [77:18] gonna do nothing but investigate Bigfoot [77:20] and UFOs." [77:23] I'd be like, "Fuck yeah." [77:26] He goes, "Wait a minute. I don't want I [77:28] didn't sign up for that." He goes, "I [77:30] don't care. That's your new job because [77:32] you guys are the two most credible [77:34] people I have. You're going to go do [77:35] that." [77:36] >> Well, because why? They had some sort of [77:38] a suspicion. Oh, they had tons of calls [77:40] about Bigfoot being on the property. [77:42] UFOs showing up over property, all the [77:45] above. [77:45] >> Okay? [77:46] >> And they wanted some expertise in that [77:48] team. [77:50] So, he and his friend start [77:53] investigating Bigfoot. And all of the [77:55] things I've just told you happened to [77:57] him and his partner over those years. [78:00] Um, Big They'd get a call at a lady's [78:03] house that she just saw Bigfoot on her [78:05] back porch. All the dogs are afraid. [78:07] They're hiding under the porch. He goes [78:09] there and he finds a track in a straight [78:12] line. One thing about Bigfoot, as you [78:14] and I would walk down a street, we walk [78:17] staggeredly. Bigfoot walks one foot [78:20] right in front of the other. And that's [78:22] how you'll know it's real. Doesn't walk [78:25] staggered like you and mine. [78:26] >> It walks like it's doing a DU DUI [78:29] checkpoint. [78:30] >> Exactly. Yes. [78:32] Like it's walking on a balance beam. [78:34] >> Huh. [78:35] And the he talked about the stride was [78:39] four or five feet. He goes, "I couldn't [78:41] do it." And just like you were saying [78:43] that the track was so deep in the soil [78:47] they couldn't match it. He said it had [78:49] been hundreds and hundreds of pounds. [78:52] That's just one thing. But over the [78:54] years they started to make this [78:57] association between Bigfoot and UFOs. [78:59] They did this all on their own. And then [79:03] he talked about the Native American [79:05] belief. Well, Native Americans believe [79:07] that they came from the stars. Each [79:09] tribe does. And just like you said, all [79:12] of the tribes have a different name for [79:14] these. [79:14] >> Yeah. [79:15] >> But nobody, no tribe believes it's an [79:18] animal. [79:19] >> Really? [79:20] >> No tribe believes it's an animal. [79:22] >> What do they think it is? [79:23] >> It's a human. It's an offshoot. [79:26] There's a very [79:27] >> They think it came from the stars. [79:29] >> They came from the stars. There's a very [79:31] very famous set of stories coming out of [79:34] the Pacific Northwest out of the 1920s [79:36] and 30s where a tribe of Native [79:40] Americans hear that there's some people [79:43] walking down a trail through the woods. [79:45] Bigfoot walks in front of them, starts [79:47] throwing rocks at him, doesn't hit him, [79:49] throwing rocks at him. The people go [79:52] home, they tell the sheriff, "Hey, these [79:55] huge hairy things are throwing rocks at [79:57] us." Sheriff says, "Oh, that's that's a [79:59] BS. We'll go out there. We'll kill them [80:01] all. The tribe hears about this and Joe, [80:05] it makes no sense. They have a press [80:07] conference. [80:08] Swear as I'm talking to you. And three [80:11] tribes in the Pacific Northwest have a [80:13] press conference and it's in the [80:14] Oregonian newspaper on the front page. [80:17] When I found it, I said, "How come no [80:19] other Bigfoot researchers ever talked [80:21] about this?" Why? Because it doesn't [80:23] support their belief system that it's an [80:25] they think it's an ape or a gorilla. And [80:26] here the tribe saying it's a tribe of [80:29] people. [80:31] We've traded with them at times. [80:33] >> What? [80:34] >> They trade things with us at times. [80:36] >> What do they give you back? [80:37] >> Uh sometimes they they will give them [80:40] ornaments or certain kinds of foods that [80:42] they have a tough time getting and they [80:43] will come back and they will give them [80:45] certain kinds of food, animals, etc. [80:49] But in this story on the front page of [80:51] the Oregonian, they talk about this. And [80:54] when I've gone to the Pacific Northwest [80:56] and Joe, there's not one tribe up there [80:59] that believes they're an animal. None of [81:01] them do. And they're the ones that have [81:04] lived with them and handed these stories [81:05] down over the ages. [81:08] And they all think that they come from [81:10] somewhere else. [81:11] >> Yes. [81:12] How do they think they got here? [81:16] >> What's their like origin story? [81:19] So, there's a man who owned a herd of [81:23] cattle and was wintering them on the [81:25] Oregon California border up north of [81:28] Crescent City. [81:30] And every year he'd done this. This one [81:34] year, this is another article in the [81:35] paper. This one year he they winter with [81:39] the Native Americans there. He sees this [81:42] Native American walking with a tray of [81:44] food. [81:46] Doesn't think much of it the first day. [81:47] Second day he sees the guy walk up into [81:49] the mountains up to this cliff area. Guy [81:52] comes back and he says, "Hey, uh, what's [81:54] that for?" He goes, "I can't talk to you [81:55] about that." So, he goes straight to the [81:57] chief. He owns all the cattle he's [82:00] working with the Native Americans. He [82:01] goes to the chief. The chief goes, [82:04] "We've got Harry up there." Harry Moon. [82:08] He goes, "Yeah, this thing came and it [82:10] comes every couple months. There's [82:12] usually two of them that come together." [82:15] He goes, "What do you mean?" He says, [82:16] 'We see a moon come out of the sky. It's [82:19] very bright. It comes down near the land [82:22] and these two jump out of the moon [82:26] and they're friendly. They get along [82:28] with us and they stay there and we feed [82:30] them sometimes. [82:32] So that was in like 1885 newspaper. [82:37] And you think about that story, how else [82:39] would they describe an orb, say, [82:42] >> right? [82:42] >> There's no other way to describe it back [82:44] then, [82:44] >> right? [82:46] It comes down, these things jump out of [82:48] it and they run into the woods and the [82:51] Native Americans have been dealing with [82:52] them for all these years. [82:55] That's that's really the story. [82:58] Wow. [83:00] Now, the rational part of me, of course, [83:02] wants to call [ __ ] but [83:06] the part that's willing to speculate, [83:08] again, if so many people are having this [83:11] very similar experience with this tall, [83:15] hairy, apeike thing in the woods, you [83:19] got to wonder like why is it the same [83:21] thing? Like, why is it over and over [83:23] again? And why do Native Americans have [83:26] so many different names for this? And [83:28] when again, they don't have a bunch of [83:29] mythical animals. It's not like they [83:31] have tons of these like weird things [83:33] that no one's ever seen before. Dragons [83:35] and No, just one thing. [83:39] >> Well, they do they do have these things [83:40] called little people. Have you heard of [83:42] those? [83:43] >> What are those? [83:45] >> That's very odd. Something that kind of [83:47] looks like you and me, [83:49] >> but they're only about 3 feet tall. [83:52] >> And they look like miniature kind of [83:54] like dwarves. Well, people have those [83:56] experiences when they do mushrooms. [83:58] >> Yeah. But [83:59] >> you know, do you know that there's a [84:00] specific mushroom that when you take it, [84:03] everyone sees little tiny people? [84:05] >> I didn't know that. [84:06] >> Yeah. This is a there was a recent [84:08] article about this. See if you can find [84:09] that, Jamie. Um there's uh one very [84:14] specific type of hallucinogenic mushroom [84:17] where when you take it universally [84:19] everyone experiences little tiny people [84:23] like little like you know elves from [84:26] ancient stories. I mean what do you [84:29] think why why is that so common? Like [84:31] what is that? [84:33] They saw them on their dishes when [84:35] eating the mushrooms that make people [84:36] hallucinate dozens of tiny humans. Now, [84:40] we're saying hallucinate, but we don't [84:43] if everyone's seeing the same exact [84:46] vision, that's very strange. Every year, [84:50] doctors at a hospital in the Eunan [84:52] province of China brace themselves for [84:54] an influx of people with an unusual [84:56] complaint. The patients come in with [84:58] strikingly odd symptom. Visions of [85:01] pint-sized elf-like figures marching [85:04] under doors, crawling up wells, and [85:07] clinging to furniture. The hospital [85:10] treats hundreds of these cases every [85:12] year. All share a common culprit. Uh I [85:15] don't know how to say this. Lao [85:18] looo [85:21] a [85:22] asiatica. [85:24] >> Asiatica. I know that one. [85:25] >> Asiatica. The first. [85:26] >> Okay. Asiatica. Duh. Lau. Whatever it [85:30] is. Lan. L A n M A O A. Uh. Aiatica. [85:36] type of mushroom that forms symbiotic [85:38] relationships with the pine trees in [85:40] nearby forests and is locally popular [85:42] food known for its savory umami pack [85:45] flavor in Yunan. Uh Eliatica is sold in [85:50] markets. It appears on restaurant menus [85:52] and is served at home during peak [85:54] mushroom season between June and August. [85:57] One must be careful to cook it [86:00] thoroughly though, otherwise the [86:02] hallucinations will set in. Or don't [86:05] cook it at all, [ __ ] Come on. Don't [86:07] you want to see the elves? Why would you [86:09] Why would you cook it? [86:11] >> Outside of Eunan and a couple other [86:13] places, the strange mushroom is largely [86:15] an enigma. There are many accounts of [86:17] the existence of this psychedelic [86:19] mushroom and many people who looked for [86:22] it but they never found the species says [86:25] uh Juliana Fi a micologist and the [86:29] founder and executive of the fungi [86:31] federation a nonprofit group dedicated [86:33] to discovering documenting and [86:35] conserving fungi. Uh this person Dom [86:42] Nauer is on a quest to solve the decades [86:45] old mystery about this fungi species and [86:48] identify the unknown compound [86:50] responsible for its unusually similar [86:52] hallucinations as well as what it can [86:55] potentially teach us about the human [86:57] brain. [86:58] You know the thing is like is it [87:01] teaching us something about the human [87:02] brain or is it allowing you to see [87:04] something that's actually there all the [87:05] time? I [87:07] >> what's at the bottom of that? [87:08] Liipuchian. [87:09] >> I was going to show you. Oh, when I [87:10] typed it into perplexity, there's at [87:12] least one [87:16] >> type something. [87:17] >> Yeah. It says, "Many indigenous nations [87:19] have their own name for little people. [87:21] In the English phrase is just a loose [87:23] umbrella term. Each language has [87:25] specific words. It usually means [87:27] something like little people, dwarves, [87:29] or forest people." The Cherokee have it. [87:33] What's that word? Yuni [87:35] Sunundai. [87:39] Um, usually translated as little people. [87:42] Chakawa. Um, they have another crazy [87:45] word. Uh, little people and forest [87:48] dwelling type called Kawi Anuasha [87:53] or forest dweller. Chicksaw have them [87:55] for little people. Small supernatural [87:57] beings. Yeah, there's so many of these [88:00] things like [88:02] >> medicinal plants. [88:04] >> Uhhuh. Describes a little person who [88:06] provides corn and medicinal plants. [88:10] Well, many many many people who have [88:14] taken mushrooms, see little tiny people, [88:16] see little elves. And in fact, you know, [88:19] that is uh a core part of the Santa [88:22] Claus mystery. You know, Santa Claus, [88:24] have you ever seen the relationship [88:27] between Santa Claus and a mushroom [88:29] called the ammonita mascaria? Do you [88:31] know that whole thing? Yeah. [88:32] >> But one of the weird things about Santa [88:34] Claus is if you go back and look at old [88:38] Christmas art, like Christmas art from [88:40] the turn of the century, all of it has [88:44] ammonita mascaria mushrooms in it and [88:46] elves. It's very weird that you would [88:50] connect Christmas with elves and a known [88:54] hallucinogenic mushroom and that these [88:56] little elves and these big mushrooms are [88:58] all together and it's merry Christmas. [89:00] See if you can find some of those old [89:02] they're they're really weird because [89:04] it's like how did we forget that and how [89:07] did that go away? And there's also the [89:10] way Santa Claus looks himself. Santa [89:13] Claus with his red outfit, with his [89:16] bright red outfit with the white cuffs [89:18] and the white buttons. The mushroom [89:21] itself is bright red with white spots on [89:24] it. Like look at these. Look how weird [89:26] that is. [89:28] Look. Santa Claus with psychedelic [89:31] mushrooms. [89:32] >> Got to be careful a little bit now cuz [89:33] we've talked about it. Some of it has to [89:35] have been created. [89:36] >> Oh yeah. You know, like we've [ __ ] up [89:38] the whole world. [89:38] >> This is too new. Like that's brand new. [89:41] >> Is it brand new? That's not vintage. [89:42] Look at that. Looks awesome. That's the [89:44] way I made it. Yeah, it's on Etsy. [89:46] >> Oh, yeah. Probably. But some of the old [89:48] ones are real. Like the one in the [89:49] middle is legit. Like that one's legit [89:51] right there that you just put up there. [89:52] And that one's from somewhere else. Look [89:54] at that. How crazy is that? I wrote an [89:56] article for my website. Santa Claus was [89:59] a mushroom a long time ago about this. [90:02] And I probably [ __ ] up the whole [90:03] algorithm, but if you look at these [90:06] images, these are ancient images that um [90:09] the one that you had up there with the [90:11] foreign language on it where it says [90:12] psychedel Yeah, that one. Like, how [90:14] weird is that? That these little elves [90:17] are carrying these giant psychedelic [90:19] mushrooms with them and they're walking [90:22] off with it. And this has to do with [90:23] Christmas. How? Why does Christmas have [90:26] to do with psychedelic mushrooms? The [90:28] question is, are these compounds, are [90:31] you hallucinating when you take these [90:33] compounds or is it opening up your [90:36] vision to see things that are there all [90:39] the time anyway? [90:41] >> Good question, right? And like how many [90:44] people have gone and taken mushrooms in [90:46] the woods and seen Bigfoot? It's another [90:49] question. Like how many people have [90:51] taken psychedelic compounds that [90:54] dissolve the ego completely put you in a [90:57] different set different space in terms [90:59] of your head space and then you're able [91:01] to see things perhaps that are there all [91:03] the time anyway. [91:05] The Bigfoot one is so weird because I [91:07] always want to dismiss it. The rational [91:09] part of me wants to go, "Oh, shut up. [91:10] It's all nonsense." I go back and forth [91:13] with Bigfoot. And then the other part of [91:15] me goes too many people. Too many people [91:18] see the same thing. Too many people have [91:20] had the they can't all be crazy or [91:23] liars. They can't all be. And if they're [91:26] not, then like what is that thing? And [91:29] why why is there no dead body? Why is [91:31] there Well, maybe because it's not the [91:34] same as we are. Maybe it comes from [91:37] somewhere else. And maybe that is the [91:40] whole the whole experience that the [91:43] whole experience is weird and that you [91:45] really can't quantify it. You can't you [91:48] can't talk about it the same way you [91:50] talk about like oh you know I know where [91:52] a sloth lives. You know it's like it's a [91:55] different kind of a creature. So I've [91:57] been around some people that say they [91:59] believe that we're part of a simulation. [92:02] Mhm. [92:02] >> And part of that simulation is [92:06] you get enough coins and you can drop in [92:08] a new entity in the game that can screw [92:12] with you. [92:14] Oh boy. Yeah. You get the right [92:15] mushrooms and you see little people [92:16] crawling up your chair. [92:19] Or let's let's see how this guy handles [92:21] a Bigfoot walking in front of him, [92:23] >> right? Yeah. [92:25] >> See how much his blood pressure goes up. [92:27] >> Right. Yeah. Well, it's also whatever [92:31] we're doing in this in as a human being [92:36] going through this life, you know, you [92:38] have a certain understanding of what's [92:41] real and what's not real and what to [92:43] expect and what not to expect based on [92:46] your life experiences, based on what [92:49] everybody else is telling you about the [92:50] world around you. And you kind of [92:52] categorized everything into what's real [92:54] and what you what you're going to [92:56] experience walking through this world. [92:59] But just what we know about the material [93:02] world is so bizarre. Just what we know [93:05] about subatomic particles, just what we [93:08] know about the very nature of matter [93:10] itself, that's all energy condensed in [93:13] in different weird ways. And that most [93:17] of what atoms are is empty space and [93:20] that a particle like subatomic particle [93:23] can ex appear and disappear. We don't [93:26] know where they're going. They could [93:28] appear they could be both moving. They [93:29] can be moving and still at the same [93:32] time. They could be in a place of superp [93:34] position. Like what are we talking about [93:36] with just reality itself? Reality itself [93:38] at the lowest observable, the smallest, [93:41] the deepest we can look at it, it's [93:43] [ __ ] magic. Like reality itself is [93:46] magic. And then you have the the [93:48] weirdness of the observer effect that [93:50] when you when you pay attention to [93:53] particles, they they behave differently. [93:56] That's right. [93:58] And that there's some sort of research [94:00] that shows that we somehow or another we [94:03] can actually affect particles in the [94:05] past. Like quantum physicists talk about [94:08] this, not cooks like me, but quantum [94:11] physicists talk about that there's some [94:14] sort of evidence that the observer [94:16] effect can affect things in the past. [94:20] Well, how far in the past? If it's only [94:21] a few seconds, is it a millisecond? And [94:23] what is it limited to that or is it not [94:26] like is it the whole world flexible? Is [94:30] everything malleable? Is everything [94:32] dependent upon consciousness? And then [94:34] what is consciousness? [94:36] >> Is it simply what's in between your [94:38] ears? [94:39] >> Or are you tuning in to consciousness? [94:42] And it's just the limitations of your [94:44] radio that's making the world around you [94:47] shape into the form that you currently [94:49] see. And maybe that is why when you add [94:52] things to that radio like psychedelic [94:55] mushrooms, like the ones that make you [94:56] see the little people or the ones that [94:58] make you see elves at Santa Claus, [95:02] you know, we I think we get we get real [95:04] arrogant when we talk about what reality [95:07] is, especially when we know from our [95:11] understanding of reality that reality [95:13] again at its quantum state is [95:15] essentially in insane and impossible. [95:17] It's magic. friend of mine the other day [95:20] said, "Hey Dave, why don't you go with [95:21] me? I'm going to go do ayawaska again." [95:24] He's done it a few times and he says, [95:26] "Dave, it'll open up your mind to things [95:28] that you just don't understand that are [95:30] real." And he goes, "I've done it a [95:31] couple times. I've had replicant [95:34] seeing the same thing multiple multiple [95:36] times that I know I could never see [95:38] without it." Have you ever done it? [95:40] >> I have not done Iawaska, but I is the [95:43] orally active form of DMT, and I've done [95:46] that. [95:46] >> Yeah. Is your experience positive? [95:50] >> Yeah, I've never had a negative [95:51] experience. Uh, but it is very strange [95:56] and it feels more real than reality [95:58] itself. And you are 100% communicating [96:02] with creatures, some beings, things that [96:06] are they they they appear to be living [96:08] geometric patterns. Um, I've had uh [96:12] multiple experiences with gestures, with [96:15] things that look like jesters where [96:18] they're giving me the finger and uh and [96:20] they were basically telling me that I [96:22] take myself too seriously. They were [96:24] like, "Fuck you." And then I like I was [96:26] like, "What?" And then I was like, "Oh, [96:28] I get it." And they're like, "Right." [96:30] They were like telling me like, "Yeah, [96:32] yeah, you you take yourself too [96:33] seriously." I was like, "You're right. [96:36] You're right." Like you Yeah. You have [96:38] to be very careful with the experience [96:39] because if you're a control freak, if [96:41] you can't just let go, you can lose your [96:45] marbles. You can really go crazy. Um, [96:48] and it's not really recommended to [96:50] anybody that has a slippery hold on [96:52] reality already, like people with [96:53] psychiatric conditions and people that [96:55] are already kind of [ __ ] up. But if [96:58] you're reasonably stable and you are [97:02] calm and rational and you can just let [97:04] go, it is a wild experience. It's a wild [97:08] experience that should not be illegal [97:11] and should probably be studied and [97:13] understood. Um, what was the guy that we [97:16] had on recently, Jamie? The guy who was [97:18] doing uh Andrew [97:20] Gallamore, how do you say his name? who [97:23] is doing those um they're setting it up [97:25] on a country where where it's legal and [97:28] they're doing um IV DMT trips that last [97:32] like 5 hours and these people they go [97:36] and they have this experience and when [97:39] they do it they all encounter similar [97:42] places similar beings and similar [97:47] patterns like they come back with very [97:50] similar stories like they're making a [97:51] map of the territory [97:53] of whatever this is that you're doing. [97:55] And they all have the exact same way of [97:57] describing it, which is similar to the [97:58] way I described it before I ever heard [98:00] of any of this, is that it feels more [98:02] real than reality itself. Reality itself [98:06] seems very dull and very [98:10] smooshy and um not not crisp, if that's [98:15] the way to say it. Whereas the DMT [98:18] experience is very vivid. The colors are [98:21] insanely bright. The experience that you [98:23] get by encountering whatever these [98:26] creatures seems way more powerful than [98:28] any kind of experience that you have in [98:31] normal everyday consciousness. [98:33] >> So does that drug open some kind of door [98:36] or receiver or trans? [98:37] >> We call it a drug, but the problem with [98:39] calling it a drug is the human brain [98:41] makes it. So Terrence McKenna had a [98:43] great line. He said, "If DMT is a drug, [98:45] everyone's holding because you got to [98:48] make something illegal that's produced [98:50] by the human body." Like, we know for a [98:52] fact it's produced in the brain. We know [98:55] for a fact that the mind actually makes [98:58] this compound, which is the most potent [99:00] psychedelic compound known to man. It's [99:03] very weird when the human mind, the [99:06] human brain rather, makes a psychedelic [99:09] compound that's the most potent compound [99:11] known to man. Not just that, but it [99:13] exists in thousands of different plants. [99:17] The problem is when we eat them, um, it [99:20] gets broken down in our gut by monoamine [99:24] oxidase. Like there's a bunch of [99:25] different gr likeis grass is very rich [99:28] in it. Uh, the acacia tree is very rich [99:30] in it. In fact, there's some scholars [99:32] from Jerusalem that believe that the [99:35] story of Moses in the burning bush was [99:38] Moses burning the acacia bush which has [99:42] DMT in it and experiencing God [99:47] which completely tracks if you think [99:50] about it like this is what the [99:51] experience feels like. It feels like [99:53] you're dealing with an all powerful [99:55] entity that's filled with love and [99:57] understanding and knows you better than [99:59] you know yourself and gives you [100:02] guidelines on how to live life [100:05] and that Moses came back from this [100:07] experience with these commandments, how [100:09] to live life that we all agree today. We [100:12] look at those commandments like these [100:13] are very reasonable, makes a lot of [100:15] sense. So sometimes I'm sitting at my [100:17] desk and I've got my dog laying next to [100:20] me and the dog's looking down the [100:22] hallway at my kitchen and I've got a [100:25] great pyrenees [100:27] and she's just laying there looking. [100:30] Then like one every four or five days [100:32] she'll just jump up at like 10:00 at [100:34] night and start growling at something [100:36] down the hall. Little people, I don't [100:38] know what it is. She sees something we [100:40] don't see. [100:42] >> So are they always there? Mhm. It's a [100:46] good question. And what can the animals [100:47] see that we can't? Because they [100:49] definitely see things that we can't. [100:50] They experience things that I mean, [100:51] their senses are so different than ours. [100:53] We just assume that we both live in the [100:55] same world, but we clearly don't. Dogs [100:58] live in a different world than us. The [101:00] the world that they experience is rich [101:02] with smells and sounds and they hear [101:05] things and they smell things that we [101:06] couldn't even imagine what they are. [101:09] >> Yeah. these uh the the weird thing about [101:12] DMT is that someone figured out in the [101:16] Amazon [101:17] thousands and thousands of years ago, no [101:19] one even knows when, how to make this [101:22] plant orally active. So what they did is [101:25] they took the the leaves of one plant [101:28] and the roots of the other. So one of [101:30] the plants contains dimethylryptamine [101:33] and the other one contains harm which is [101:36] an MAO inhibitor monoamine oxidase [101:38] inhibitor and this MAO inhibitor allows [101:42] DMT to be orally active. Whereas if you [101:45] just ate that plant the monoamine [101:47] oxidase in your gut would break the [101:49] plant down and you would never [101:50] experience the DMT trip. Like how how [101:53] did they figure out how to do that? How [101:55] >> and you ask them they tell them the [101:56] plants told them how to do it. [101:59] Yeah. Right. Like what? Yeah. But when [102:04] you think about people that were living [102:06] in this incredibly rich life jungle for [102:11] thousands and thousands and thousands of [102:13] years and with no contact with the [102:18] western world as we know it today, [102:21] right? So this is thousands of years [102:22] ago. They're living in they they have [102:25] the subsistence lifestyle living with [102:27] animals and plants and fish and they [102:30] probably are deeply in tuned with the [102:33] jungle and deeply in tune with the [102:35] wildlife and the plants in a way that we [102:37] can't even possibly understand [102:39] >> and that we've probably dulled all those [102:41] senses or they've atrovied to a point, [102:44] >> you know, where we just we we just [102:47] assume that everybody sees the world the [102:49] way we do. And I don't think those [102:51] people did or do [102:55] >> 100%. [102:56] >> They all have they all talk about [102:58] experiences with entities from somewhere [103:00] else, too. [103:01] >> Yes. [103:01] >> Yeah. [103:04] >> It's a very weird world out there. And [103:06] that's why, you know, when someone tells [103:09] a story about being abducted by a craft [103:12] from another dimension, it's so easy to [103:14] just dismiss them. It's so easy to just [103:16] throw it all away. But I mean, look, I [103:18] was watching Fox News yesterday where [103:20] they were talking about the different [103:22] kinds of entities that the the United [103:24] States government has encountered. Did [103:26] you see that? I saw it. [103:27] >> Like, have you seen it? Did you see that [103:28] [ __ ] Jamie? [103:29] >> But I've been waiting to sit. I'd show [103:30] you this thing that was part of the [103:31] movie. He shows on this. I have it on [103:33] the screen. Uh, that's the box, if you [103:37] will, the transparent box that Carl, [103:40] >> who we talked about earlier, was taken [103:42] into. [103:43] >> Oh, Jesus. [103:43] >> Where he was once he was in there. [103:45] >> Hold this thought cuz I got to peek. [103:46] We'll come right back and we'll talk [103:47] about this box. I got to pee real bad. [103:49] >> We're back. [103:51] >> All right. So, we were at [103:53] >> this portal. [103:54] >> I was showing you this guy. So, he had [103:57] uh this transparent, which I would say [103:59] is like, you know, transparent cube. [104:02] >> This is what he described. [104:03] >> Probably could have a sphere in this. [104:04] Yeah. So he said he described that [104:06] showing up and a six- foot tall figure [104:10] came out and [104:12] >> a black jumpsuit to come there but said [104:14] telepathically come with me. [104:16] >> He got in it and there he saw his [104:18] targeted elk frozen in beams of light [104:22] >> alongside five figures humanlike figures [104:26] that seemed more spectral than alive, [104:28] stiff, unblinking like passengers in [104:31] stasis. And then the ship shifted [104:35] >> and took him 163,000 lighty years away [104:38] and ended up on a tower on an alien [104:39] planet [104:41] >> where they fixed all of his ailments. [104:43] >> A tower on an alien planet under a [104:46] violet sky. [104:47] >> Yeah. [104:48] >> And then they said like they're not [104:49] you're not suitable. They don't we can't [104:51] use you. Sorry. [104:52] >> Because of his [104:53] >> cuz he's got no jizz. [104:54] >> And then he was found miles away sort of [104:56] just like how um Travis Wall was found. [104:59] >> Whoa. Hypnosis Sessions later revealed [105:02] more uh what's his name? AOSO. [105:07] >> That's the in quotes alien. That would [105:10] be the entity. [105:10] >> Auso one. [105:12] >> Okay. Yeah. [105:13] >> Uh kind. We're experimenting on humans [105:15] and animals possibly for genetic or [105:17] dimensional purposes. Carl's truck was [105:20] found miles away in impassible terrain, [105:23] embedded in mud with him inside, [105:26] babbling about lights and voices in [105:29] impassible terrain. [105:31] >> Yeah. [105:32] >> Whoa. [105:32] >> So, there's a bunch of I mean, [105:34] >> so his his truck was just placed in a [105:36] place where it couldn't get to. [105:38] >> Correct. [105:38] >> There's a bunch of pictures that I don't [105:40] know if I'm imagining he drew some of [105:43] these cuz in that video. [105:44] >> No, bro. Those are photos. [105:45] >> No, [105:46] >> that's that's it. [105:47] >> He holds up this photo. So I think he [105:48] drew this. So he's an older man and drew [105:51] what he remembered. So a little bit of [105:53] leeway. [105:53] >> Oh, so he drew the one there and then [105:55] someone did an artist recreation. Oh, [105:57] look at that. Weird [105:58] >> like weird arm like a knife for an arm [106:00] or something. [106:02] >> He said he thought that those were [106:03] almost robotic. [106:06] >> Oh, interesting. [106:08] Well, that kind of makes sense, right? [106:10] That eventually being This is the photos [106:13] of the bullet. It kind of makes sense [106:15] that eventually we would realize like [106:18] why would we travel places where we [106:20] could just make like an artificial [106:21] person to do it and report back to us [106:23] everything. Why why risk a human's life? [106:25] >> 100%. [106:26] >> Which is what we're about to do. That's [106:27] what Elon's doing to the moon. He's [106:29] going to send the robots up to make the [106:31] stuff on the moon [106:33] >> way easier than sending people. [106:34] >> Of course, [106:35] >> you don't need air. They don't need air. [106:36] >> That makes sense why he's canceling the [106:37] Model S and you know that and the X [106:40] >> get to work. [106:41] >> Yeah. get those Optimus ro because he's [106:43] he's uh transformed some of his [106:46] factories. They've they've stopped the [106:48] Model S and the Model X and they're [106:49] using it to make these Optimus robots [106:51] instead that factory [106:53] >> and then these robots are going to fly [106:55] to the moon. [106:56] >> If we had that idea, no one else like [106:58] you know [106:58] >> of course [106:59] >> no one else has had that same thing. [107:00] >> Yeah, of course it makes sense. So he he [107:02] got a sense that this was a robot. [107:04] >> Yes. A lot of people have also said that [107:06] about the grays that they get the sense [107:07] that they're not really an actual [107:09] physical like or a biological organism [107:13] that they're some sort of a hybrid thing [107:15] or some sort of a whatever. [107:18] >> The thing that got me about that is that [107:20] if it was robotic but it still has the [107:23] ability to mind speak. [107:24] >> Mhm. [107:25] >> That is really advanced. [107:27] >> Yeah. Well, I mean we have to figure out [107:29] what consciousness is, right? And what [107:31] communication is. And if if there's [107:34] something you could tune it, you could, [107:36] you know, you could have a robot that [107:38] could speak out loud. So why can't you [107:41] have a robot that transmits? [107:44] Why couldn't I mean with sufficient [107:46] enough technology, it kind of makes [107:48] sense you would have something that has [107:49] the ability to transmit into your mind? [107:52] So, do you think with when you're [107:53] studying all these different people [107:55] missing and like do you try to put a [107:58] percentage on how many of these people [108:00] you think just got eaten by bears and [108:02] how many of these people you think are [108:03] having these kind of experiences? [108:05] >> So, if there's any evidence of animal [108:07] predation, I don't even work with them. [108:09] I just push them out. They're [108:11] >> right [108:11] >> won't even look at the case. [108:12] >> You're only looking at the cases that [108:14] are super weird [108:15] >> that fit that. No animals can track. [108:18] Canines can't track, [108:19] >> right? there. They bring a professional [108:21] tracker. They can't track. Uh there's a [108:25] weather issue in relationship to the [108:27] disappearance. [108:28] Uh sometimes they people are found near [108:32] next to water or amongst a boulder [108:35] field. Now there's another one, Joe. [108:37] Boulder fields. Now, if you think about [108:40] where's the most boulders and granite, [108:43] it's Yoseite Valley. And what goes [108:45] through the middle of Yusede Valley? [108:47] Water. the Merced River and that area [108:51] specifically. [108:53] That's a hard valley to get lost in. But [108:56] yet, how did these people get lost? And [108:57] we're not talking about people going [108:58] into the back country. We're talking [109:00] about people getting lost in Yusede [109:02] Valley that disappear and aren't found. [109:04] And there's a couple of case, well, [109:06] probably 10 cases that are just [109:07] absolutely bizarre. Uh there's a case [109:10] that was investigated by Yusede [109:13] investigators back 40 years ago as a [109:16] woman came out and they found her body [109:20] so far away from a cliff that they said [109:24] she their words she was launched. [109:30] So it's like if you jumped or you fell [109:32] you could only go so far from the cliff, [109:34] >> right? She was found too far from the [109:37] cliff and they called it launched, but [109:39] they couldn't understand how she got [109:41] that far. [109:43] >> Not possible with a gust of wind. [109:44] >> No, not [109:46] >> how far was she? [109:48] >> That's all that that's that was their [109:49] wording [109:50] >> that she had to have been launched. [109:52] >> Right. [109:53] And norm I've never seen that wording [109:56] before in any park service report. [110:00] They're usually very conservative in the [110:02] way they discuss things. And so this [110:04] aligns with this idea that they get [110:06] dropped. [110:07] >> Correct. [110:10] >> That's very disturbing that aliens would [110:12] do that to us. Just drop us. [110:16] >> Like I would think that if they're going [110:17] to abduct you, hey, place me back in my [110:19] bed. [110:20] >> So be nice. [110:21] >> So pay attention when the next time you [110:23] see a story about somebody being [110:25] abducted. A lot of times they're dropped [110:27] in their bed. [110:29] >> They're not placed, they're dropped. [110:34] Um, how many of these people that go [110:37] missing like this under weird [110:39] circumstances die versus just disappear [110:41] forever? [110:45] I would say that it's probably 40% 50% [110:48] are never found. I would say that maybe [110:52] half of that half that's left, 25, [110:55] split between alive and dead. [110:58] But you find out a lot more about the [111:01] case if you get the body back because [111:04] the body sometimes will show things that [111:06] doesn't make any sense at all. A lot of [111:08] times [111:10] the person will disappear and it's an [111:12] 80° day. We talk about that point of [111:15] separation. [111:16] >> You going this way, I'm going to the [111:18] right. And a 100 yards from where I last [111:21] saw you, there's a pile of clothes [111:23] there. And you're thinking, well, it's [111:25] 80° out. Why is there a pile of clothes? [111:27] his underwear, his socks, his shoes, [111:29] everything piled right there. He's never [111:32] found. Where'd he go? Why would he take [111:34] all his clothes off? [111:37] People would say, "Well, you know, he uh [111:40] it's hypothermia and there's a condition [111:42] where you take all your clothes off." [111:43] >> Not in 80° weather. [111:45] >> Not in 80° weather. Not that fast. It [111:47] doesn't happen. And so missing clothing, [111:50] missing shoes are part of this that [111:52] don't make any sense. If you're in the [111:54] woods, you're on a trail, you're not [111:57] going to take your shoes off. [112:00] It's all very weird. Does anybody ever [112:04] have an experience where they go and [112:07] they get abducted and then they ask what [112:10] happens to some of these people? How [112:12] many people do you do this to? [112:16] >> It must have happened, but I don't know [112:17] if they've ever gotten a response from [112:18] it. [112:21] Has anybody ever asked how many people [112:23] do you abduct? How many people have you [112:25] taken like this? I'm sure they've asked, [112:28] but I'm not sure that they would have [112:29] gotten an answer. [112:32] >> Huh. And then you know that there [112:34] there's a theory out there that there's [112:36] more than one type or one group taking [112:39] people. [112:39] >> Yeah. [112:40] >> Well, this is the Fox News thing. See if [112:42] you could find that Fox News report [112:44] because it's kind of wacky because [112:46] watching it on Fox News you're like is [112:48] Fox News all of a sudden coast to coast [112:50] with Art Bell? Like what what the hell [112:52] has happened? Because they were talking [112:53] about the reptilians and the Nordics, [112:56] the Grays, [112:59] Fox News, TV, like regular TV. Like what [113:04] is going on here? Is that nonsense? Are [113:07] they being fed nonsense or is this [113:10] disclosure and are they slow trickling [113:14] this out to us to get regular folks like [113:16] boomers get them accustomed to this idea [113:20] of there are entities out there? What if [113:24] they're just acclimating you [113:26] >> to to the reality of our world? And what [113:29] if what if the truth is is that there's [113:32] people around you [113:35] that are aliens and you don't even know [113:37] it. I think Elon's a [ __ ] alien. It's [113:39] the only thing that makes sense. I think [113:41] I met a few aliens. Definitely. Joey [113:44] Diaz might be an alien. There's a few [113:46] people that I've met. I'm like, "You're [113:48] not real. There's no way you're real." [113:52] But Elon's the top of my list. Like, it [113:54] doesn't even make sense. Like I I've met [113:56] a lot of people that are smarter than [113:57] me. I I'm you know I'm not the smartest [113:59] guy but uh there's only a few people [114:02] that I met I'm like okay we're not even [114:03] the same thing. Okay, let's hear this. [114:06] And this is what Dan from um Age of [114:09] Disclosure. That's one of [114:10] >> people I interviewed in my film, senior [114:11] intelligence officials, went on the [114:13] record saying that um there have been [114:16] dozens of crashed craft of non-human [114:18] origin over the years. And elements of [114:21] our government have recovered those [114:22] those crashes and they've gotten out of [114:25] that technology of non-human origin and [114:26] in some cases non-human bodies that were [114:29] on these on these craft. A number of the [114:32] people in my film go on the record [114:33] saying that the bodies were not all the [114:35] same type, meaning there were multiple [114:38] species. [114:39] >> Were the bodies alive or were they dead? [114:44] >> The people in my film talked about uh [114:46] events where they were they were dead [114:48] bodies. They were deceased bodies. [114:50] >> Okay. And [114:52] >> yeah, [114:52] >> there's a lot of speculation about the [114:55] amount of UFO information we've been [114:58] given on this first trunch. Uh, we [115:01] expected more. We know there is more. [115:03] Why do you have that word before [115:07] so hard to release more? [115:10] >> Yeah. So, the president gave his [115:11] directive in middle of February, [115:14] essentially instructing all federal [115:15] agencies to declassify evidence of [115:17] non-human intelligent life and UAP. What [115:19] happened after that is uh the White [115:22] House had to go get that evidence out of [115:24] the hands of all these federal agencies [115:26] and they all they all for the most part [115:28] pushed back uh the people who have [115:29] gatekept this information for 80 years. [115:32] They don't they don't want to share it. [115:33] You know, they've they've gotten a lot [115:35] of power and control um over the years [115:38] and it's just frankly not human nature [115:40] for people to want to give up power and [115:41] control. So, there's a tug-of-war [115:43] happening behind the scenes. Um, there [115:46] are a number of other reasons guiding [115:48] their their desire to keep this secret, [115:50] including a general belief that the [115:52] public can't handle the truth. Uh, I [115:54] would argue the public can handle the [115:55] truth. I think my my film shows that uh [115:58] people aren't watching it and jumping [115:59] out of windows. They're they're curious [116:01] and they want to learn more. Uh, there's [116:03] also a general feeling that a concern [116:05] that they can't tell the American public [116:08] what they know and don't know without [116:10] also telling our adversaries and giving [116:12] them some sort of advantage. Um, but I [116:15] think I think that that's [116:17] >> Is that good? [116:17] >> Yeah, that's good. Go back to that one [116:19] weird one in the beginning, the black [116:20] and white one that looked like a star [116:22] that looked like um [116:23] >> that's been debunked, I think, by Yeah. [116:25] >> Oh, how dare they? [116:26] >> Uh, that [116:27] >> that one that's debunked, [116:29] >> but this is one of the more recent ones [116:30] that was released in this immense [116:34] >> dump of information. How's it been [116:35] debunked? [116:36] >> Uh, it's like I'll [ __ ] look. [116:38] >> I'm gonna debunk the debunkers. [ __ ] [116:40] off. That thing's awesome. I want that [116:42] thing to be real. [116:44] Um, yeah, that's Dan Farah from uh Age [116:48] of Disclosure, which if you haven't seen [116:49] it, folks, amazing documentary, very [116:51] interesting. You know, it's a bunch of [116:53] different people that have inside [116:57] information that are talking about it. [116:58] And one of Here they're just debunking [117:00] it. The eight-ointed star refers to a [117:03] declassified 2013 infrared military v [117:06] video released as part of the government [117:09] UFO files. The footage was widely [117:11] debated online and linked to alien or [117:13] biblical origins. However, experts [117:16] debunk the phenomenon, explaining it is [117:18] simply a distortion caused by a hot jet [117:20] engines exhaust fume plume hitting a [117:23] military infrared camera. Allegedly, [117:28] I prefer to believe that it's something [117:30] else. I don't know. Let me add another [117:33] twist to this missing person thing for [117:34] you. [117:34] >> Okay, please. So, it's more of an [117:37] evolution for me learning what could be [117:41] happening in those woods. And I started [117:43] off in national parks. [117:45] And the most recent thing I've done, [117:47] Missing 411 National Parks, Washington [117:50] State. There's a case where a guy in [117:53] 2006 disappeared in Olympic National [117:56] Park. He was a former former army [117:59] intelligence officer. He uh worked in [118:02] Israel. He worked in Africa. He worked [118:04] in a lot of different places, spoke six [118:06] languages, and then he started to work [118:08] in campaigns. And he worked for a woman [118:11] who was campaigning to be a [118:12] congresswoman in Washington state. She [118:14] lost. She became the head of retirement [118:17] services in the state of Washington. She [118:19] brought him along as the assistant. His [118:22] name was Gilbert Gilman. [118:25] When I wrote the story up for my books, [118:28] he was supposed to show up at this [118:30] meeting for her on a Sunday. He stopped [118:33] off at at Olympic National Park, parked [118:35] his car, was playing the music loud, a [118:38] ranger come by, asked him to turn it [118:40] down. He turned it down, he got out, and [118:41] he walked into the woods. He never came [118:43] back. Huge search he's never found. [118:47] That's all I really knew. And I wrote it [118:49] up like that. Canines couldn't follow [118:51] his track. It disappeared. Blah blah [118:52] blah. Then I interview, we set up doing [118:56] this thing for the movie, interviewing [118:58] his relatives, and I interview his [119:00] girlfriend. and his girlfriend said she [119:02] saw him a month beforehand [119:04] and she said uh a week before he [119:08] disappeared he was trying to call me [119:09] like he wanted to tell me something and [119:11] I was busy and I couldn't talk to him [119:13] and I knew he wanted to tell me [119:14] something but then I put it up so [119:16] something was wrong I I never got to [119:19] talk to him again so I start talking to [119:21] her about his past and I said well did [119:24] he ever work for the CIA [119:26] and Joe she goes [119:29] I don't know if I could talk about that. [119:32] I said, "Well, why can't you talk about [119:33] that?" "Well, I don't I don't know. I [119:36] don't think I can." [119:37] >> Well, that means yes. [119:39] >> Exactly. So [119:43] So she gets emotional. She's upset. She [119:45] can't see him. And then we go into the [119:48] next room, interview his mom, and his [119:51] mom says, "Well, Dave, a lot of people [119:53] don't know this, that before he [119:55] disappeared, [119:57] I have a penthouse in Chicago. This [120:00] woman's really wealthy, and Gilbert has [120:03] a bedroom there, and he asked me to [120:07] stack a couple books on his nightstand, [120:09] and he wrote something on a yellow pad [120:13] on my coffee table in Arabic. [120:16] And I said, "How long would that sit was [120:18] that sitting there?" And she goes, [120:19] "Well, I I went one week and he [120:21] disappeared. I never got to really look [120:23] at it and then I flew to Washington, so [120:26] I don't know what he wrote." [120:28] So Joe, here's the kicker. I said, [120:30] "Well, that's pretty strange." And she [120:32] goes, "No, Dave. What's really strange [120:34] is I'm in Washington and we're doing [120:36] this search for Gilbert and the people [120:39] who run my townhouse, my condominium, [120:41] she lives like the 30th floor, called me [120:44] and said, "Two FBI agents were just here [120:47] and they said they needed to get into [120:49] your townhouse." And I gave them the [120:51] keys and I went into the they went into [120:53] your townhouse and took some things. [120:56] I said, "Mrs. Gilman, they can't do [120:58] that. I don't care what they say. They [121:00] need a search warrant to go in your [121:01] house. He can't give permission. What [121:04] was taken? Well, I went back. The yellow [121:07] pad was gone and a couple of his [121:10] personal things were gone. [121:12] So, I said, "This doesn't make any [121:15] sense. Why would the FBI go into your [121:18] house to retrieve anything of Gilbert's [121:21] if this is a missing person case and he [121:23] has no relationship to the government?" [121:26] And she goes, "Well, Dave, you're asking [121:27] what I've been thinking all along." Now, [121:29] this this happened 15 years before I I [121:34] interviewed her. She's sharp as attack. [121:37] Girlfriend, sharp as attack. And she [121:40] says, "Things haven't seemed right." And [121:43] she said, "I think I think he's alive [121:45] somewhere." [121:47] So, as she's saying all this, my mind's [121:49] racing and I'm thinking, how many other [121:51] people have disappeared in a national [121:53] park under circumstances that I just [121:55] heard from a girlfriend and the mom, [121:59] but I don't know about them because I [122:00] haven't been able to interview their [122:01] girlfriends and their moms. [122:04] And why wouldn't the park service give [122:07] me the information on the report [122:11] if it was a straight missing person case [122:13] like this? They would. So really, is [122:15] there something more nefarious going on [122:17] in the parks [122:19] about taking people that they're in [122:23] conjunction with some other body, some [122:25] other three-letter agency [122:28] to make people go away? [122:32] So, they're doing this on purpose with [122:34] people that have information that's [122:36] inconvenient or that's top secret or [122:38] they don't want it being leaked somehow. [122:42] >> I had the feeling Gilbert knew. I think [122:44] I think it was all planned. [122:47] >> He knew that they were going to take [122:49] him. [122:49] >> Yeah. And I think he he agreed to go. [122:52] >> Why Why do you think that? [122:54] >> Because he left that pad with the with [122:57] the writing in Arabic. [122:58] >> Did he speak Arabic? [123:00] >> He spoke six languages [123:02] >> and we don't know what he wrote down in [123:03] Arabic. [123:04] >> No. [123:04] >> Okay. [123:06] >> And she also said a peculiar thing. I [123:10] don't I'm sorry I don't remember the [123:12] books, but he asked her to get two books [123:15] and put on the counter and she thought [123:18] that that was a clue to what happened. [123:21] Dante's Inferno might have been one of [123:23] them. [123:25] And I forgot the other book, but she [123:27] said, "I Dave, I think that's a clue. I [123:29] just don't understand what he was trying [123:30] to say." [123:33] Huh. [123:34] But that's also not the first time [123:36] something like this has happened where [123:39] somebody disappeared and it was all [123:41] pointing to the government. In the [123:43] 1950s, there was a man that was going to [123:47] Miami University. [123:49] He played in their band. He was a [123:51] wrestler for the varsity wrestling team. [123:53] He was an all-around guy. [123:55] One night, uh, he comes home to his dorm [123:59] and strangely there's a fish in his bed [124:02] and he asks the RA for new sheets. She [124:06] brings in new sheets. He gets him [124:09] changed. [124:10] Make a long story short, he disappears [124:13] right after that, that night. So, it's [124:15] like that's the message that you're [124:17] going to go that night or something. I [124:18] don't know. [124:20] So everything just looks like the guy [124:22] disappeared from college except 5 months [124:25] later the head of housing for Miami [124:27] univers or Miami, Ohio [124:31] is at a city 10 miles north of the [124:35] Pennsylvania border in New York. A [124:37] little tiny city. He and his wife are [124:40] having dinner at a bed and breakfast. [124:44] And sitting across from him, 10 feet [124:46] away, are three men at a table. [124:50] And he says, "I'm telling you that was [124:53] Ron Tam." That's the guy's name. And [124:57] he's talking to the wife and they keep [124:59] keep looking at each other. [125:02] So they go out to the parking lot. He [125:03] tells his wife, "I've got to go back in. [125:05] Ron's disappeared. I've got to go talk [125:07] to him." So he goes back in and all [125:09] three of the guys are gone, all dressed [125:10] in suits. That was another indicator [125:13] that the government had some something [125:15] to do with the disappearance. [125:19] Now, Ron's family lived in LA. They [125:22] never saw Ron again. Never heard from [125:23] him again. [125:24] >> And what do you think they're doing? [125:26] Like, why would they do that? [125:27] >> Well, the question I and I've talked to [125:29] my team about this. Why would the [125:32] government need you to separate yourself [125:34] from the family under unusual [125:37] circumstances? What would be that point? [125:39] I don't understand. [125:43] If you wanted to go to work for [125:44] government services, why wouldn't you [125:45] just do it? There's [125:46] >> a story about fish in Ron's bed on [125:49] Ronald Tamman.com. This is the right [125:51] guy. [125:52] >> Yeah, that's him. [125:53] >> Says that this was a prank. Someone [125:55] confessed it to him in 2010. The fish [125:58] was a prank. [125:59] >> That's what it says. 2010 he confessed [126:01] to me at the club behind the fish prank. [126:04] >> Okay, but still the guy disappeared. [126:08] Think of it this way. In these [126:10] emotionally charged and divisive times [126:12] when no one seems to agree on much of [126:13] anything, I present to you the one [126:15] shining example of a core belief with [126:17] with which all of humanity can surely [126:20] agree and at that time honored value is [126:22] this. No one in his or her right mind [126:25] would ever knowingly sleep with a dead [126:27] fish in their bed. [126:30] Depends on how tired you are. [126:33] Okay, [126:37] this doesn't make any sense to me. [126:39] So when these guys just disappear, like [126:42] you think that he knew he was going to [126:44] be taken, [126:45] >> Ron? I don't know. [126:47] >> You don't know? But the other guy that [126:48] went into the woods, you think he he [126:49] knew? [126:50] >> I think Gilbert knew. [126:51] >> And how do you think he was taken? [126:54] >> That's a good question. I don't know. [126:55] >> He might be a victim of a serial killer [126:58] that someone else investigated on a TV [126:59] show 10, 12 years ago. [127:02] >> That's completely BS. [127:04] >> Why do you think that? Uh if a serial [127:07] killer killed him in the middle of the [127:08] woods, they would have found his body. [127:12] >> H the guy said that he put at least one [127:16] maybe up to eight bodies 100 feet at the [127:19] bottom of the lake. [127:20] >> Oh, [127:21] >> maybe [127:23] he admitted to at least eight slangs [127:25] before he died at age 34. [127:27] >> Oh, [127:28] >> didn't say he killed this guy, but [127:30] >> but he killed him in that area. [127:31] >> Yeah. [127:32] >> Oh, well, that's possible. That that [127:35] would be why they didn't find the body. [127:39] They should have found tracks to a kill [127:42] site. They would have found evidence, [127:44] >> right? They would have probably found [127:45] some blood. [127:46] >> And remember, they were they were on [127:48] that from the day he disappeared. [127:49] >> And they were they had dogs. Yeah. [127:51] >> They would have found blood. [127:52] >> Correct. [127:53] >> Unless they strangled him. [127:54] >> Well, even if they would have strangled [127:56] him, there would have been so many [127:57] people in that area. That guy would have [127:59] been seen at least. [128:02] >> Really? How? Was this like wooded? [128:06] You're talking about a lake? Are you [128:07] sure they'd been seen? [128:08] >> There's a small parking lot. Not a big [128:10] area, right? This isn't like a a real [128:12] big parking lot. A real big [128:14] >> This guy had done this to a bunch of [128:15] people for sure. [128:17] >> Not not right there. [128:18] >> No. [128:19] >> No. [128:20] >> Okay. Um, the guy who disappeared and [128:22] went to the woods. And you you think [128:25] that guy, what was his name again? [128:26] >> Ron Tamman. [128:27] >> No, the other guy. The guy that that [128:28] disappeared and went to the woods. [128:30] >> Gilbert Gilman. [128:31] >> Yeah. [128:31] >> Yeah. When when that guy disappeared, [128:34] which is which is Gilbert? Is this the [128:36] serial killer one? [128:37] >> Okay. The the guy that you said parked [128:40] his car and went to the woods and you [128:42] think that he knew that he was going to [128:44] be taken? [128:45] >> Yeah. [128:46] >> What do you think happened to him when [128:47] he went to the woods? [128:49] >> I think somehow they had some extraction [128:51] method and who knows what that is. He [128:54] was he was wearing Bermuda shorts, [128:56] flipflops. He wasn't somebody that was [128:58] going for a hike. That was the other [129:00] indicator. He was wearing like a [129:02] Hawaiian shirt. Even the ranger said she [129:05] thought that the him playing the loud [129:08] music [129:10] >> was a signal. [129:11] >> That was a signal for her to come over [129:12] and acknowledge that he was there. [129:16] >> Okay. So, he planned his disappearance [129:18] maybe [129:20] >> or he wanted her to see her there, see [129:23] him there. That was the indicator. Do [129:25] you ever wonder like if you're losing [129:27] your marbles studying all these [129:28] different things? You know what I mean? [129:30] Like you're you're going over so many [129:31] different cases, so many kooky [129:34] circumstances and different people [129:36] disappearing that you're your whole [129:38] perspective on this stuff gets a little [129:40] weird. I would say so except I wrote [129:43] this up as just a standard everyday [129:46] missing person case. [129:47] >> Mhm. [129:48] >> These weren't my beliefs. That's these [129:50] were the beliefs of [129:51] >> right the girlfriend and the mom. And I [129:54] have to say that the FBI going to that [129:57] house is completely outside the realm of [129:59] anything normal. [130:00] >> Yeah, that's very bizarre. And also [130:02] taking the legal pad with the Arabic [130:04] writing on it and the books. [130:06] >> Correct. [130:07] >> It's very weird. But I mean, who knows [130:09] what that's all about. That seems to [130:10] have something to do with the [130:11] government. Whereas some of these things [130:13] seem to have something to do with either [130:15] extraterrestrials or interdimensional [130:18] things or [130:19] >> correct. [130:21] A lot of weirdness in this world. David, [130:24] >> I think our world is much more complex [130:25] than we think. [130:26] >> Yeah, I would agree with you. [130:29] Just like humanity, everyone's there's a [130:32] lot of complex people for sure. Well, [130:35] certainly the people that have access to [130:37] this information like the stuff that Dan [130:39] Farah was talking about like imagine the [130:43] mind of a person. Let's assume that [130:47] there are really extraterrestrial bodies [130:49] somewhere and let's assume that there [130:51] are recovered crafts and that these [130:54] people like Bob Lazaro really have been [130:56] back engineering. You imagine being one [130:59] of those people, one of the select group [131:01] of people, a small amount, that have [131:04] information that's completely different [131:07] from what the rest of the world has [131:09] about the reality in which we exist in [131:12] that we share this reality with things [131:15] that have technology that is beyond our [131:18] comprehension. they can do things that [131:21] we can't even imagine and that these [131:24] people all know it's real and that [131:26] they're holding on to this information. [131:27] They don't think we can handle it. [131:31] I I mean the radio shows I've been on [131:33] and the people I've talked to have said [131:35] the same thing about me and missing [131:36] people. It's been a revelation that this [131:39] many people are missing in our woods [131:42] that are unaccounted for and our [131:45] government won't acknowledge it. [131:48] acknowledging it by releasing a list, [131:50] releasing the documents. Why can't we [131:52] see them? [131:53] >> But you could attribute that to sheer [131:55] incompetence. Like the people that are [131:58] running the parks and working for like, [132:00] you know, you get bad investigators in [132:03] all sorts of I mean, you're a cop. You [132:06] you know about all that. What's going on [132:07] with this [132:08] >> from two years ago? Uh Gil's mother [132:11] thinks he might have disappeared to be a [132:14] spy for the US government and is still [132:16] alive and their authorities say that's [132:19] possible. [132:20] >> What? [132:20] >> He had a long history. I think he said [132:22] he he was an interrogator and knew six [132:23] different languages. He worked for the [132:24] UN. [132:26] Um it said when he went missing he had [132:29] survival skills from his military [132:30] training. He was a paratrooper. [132:33] >> Huh. [132:33] >> And he just he had a camera on him was [132:35] apparently all he had. So they could [132:37] have staged his disappearance so that [132:39] they could position him somewhere else. [132:42] People would think he's dead. You give [132:43] him a totally new identity and now he's [132:46] working undercover somewhere. [132:47] >> Yeah. [132:48] >> Well, I would imagine that's possible. I [132:50] would imagine like if you wanted someone [132:52] to work for you and you say, you know, [132:55] this person's going to work undercover, [132:57] some top secret mission. Okay, but [132:59] you've got to disappear. You got to [133:01] disappear from regular life so that we [133:03] can give you this new identity. We can't [133:05] just have, you know, your friends [133:08] looking for you. We We have to move you [133:10] to some of the new part of the world. So [133:12] Joe, if you were me and you were sitting [133:14] across from his mom, [133:17] that's really something vile, I think, [133:18] to do to your parent. [133:20] >> Oh, for sure. [133:21] >> Horrific. [133:22] >> She was She was a broken human. [133:24] >> Yeah. No, that's terrible. [133:26] >> And and I asked her, I said, "There's a [133:28] good chance Gilbert's somewhere in the [133:30] world watching this. What do you want to [133:33] say to him?" [133:34] She said, "Gilbert, just please come [133:36] home." She was like an 88-year-old woman [133:38] then. [133:38] >> Oh, boy. [133:40] >> Yeah. [133:41] >> Yeah. No, [133:42] >> that's brutal. And [133:44] >> Well, that's a very different thing [133:45] we're talking about. That's not a fun [133:46] thing. [133:47] >> No, [133:47] >> the fun thing's the alien stuff. [133:49] >> I'm sorry. [133:49] >> That's the fun stuff. [133:51] >> Sorry, [133:53] >> I got off track there. [133:54] >> No, but I mean, look, I get it because [133:55] you're dealing with like a wide swath, [133:57] like a bunch of different kinds of [133:59] encounters and different things, you [134:01] know? Um the those Yeah, that's dark. [134:05] >> So, do you know much about Mount [134:06] Reineer? [134:07] >> Not much. No. [134:09] >> So, do you know that the the original [134:12] UFO [134:14] period of time started with a UFO [134:16] sighting, [134:16] >> Kenneth Arnold? [134:17] >> Right. [134:17] >> Yeah. [134:18] >> So, do you know that when Arnold Do you [134:21] know what Arnold was doing when he was [134:23] flying around? [134:24] >> No. [134:25] So, six months prior to that, three [134:28] transports, Marine transports were [134:30] flying from El Toro Marine Base into [134:32] Seattle. [134:34] Boom. One, one after the other. They hit [134:37] bad weather. One of those planes came [134:40] around and they lost it. [134:43] Arnold, there was like a huge reward if [134:45] he could find it. Arnold was flying by [134:48] Rineer looking at the mountain trying to [134:50] see if he could find it. And these [134:51] things went by. [134:54] Long story short, months later, they [134:57] found the transport had crashed into the [135:00] side of Rineer. [135:02] First of all, do you know that the [135:04] Marines never took one body off of [135:06] there? [135:08] Did they recover the vehicle, the the [135:10] the craft? [135:11] >> No. [135:12] >> No, [135:12] >> they didn't recover anything. [135:13] >> They just left it there. [135:14] >> They left it there. [135:16] >> Was it because the extraction is too [135:17] difficult? [135:18] >> That's what they said. [135:19] >> Isn't that possible? [135:20] >> I guess so. I mean, if it's not [135:22] traversible, they can't get in there. [135:24] >> But they did get in there. [135:25] >> They did. [135:26] >> They did. They said they got in there. [135:28] They saw bodies, but it was too [135:30] dangerous to remove any and they left [135:31] them all on the side of the mountain. [135:34] >> So, that's the reason that Arnold was [135:37] there. A lot of people don't know that. [135:39] >> Okay. [135:39] >> And when he saw those things fly by him [135:43] at an extraordinary pace, he said, "Hey, [135:46] that's that's nothing that no planes we [135:48] have." And there were multiple ones he [135:50] saw go by. [135:51] >> Right [135:52] >> now, since that time, Mount Baker and [135:55] Mount Reineer have had dozens of UFO [135:58] sightings. And if you look at the [136:02] dispersion of people who have [136:04] disappeared on Reineer, it's most of [136:06] them aren't way up here on the mountain. [136:08] They're down here at the bottom. And [136:13] when we put that in the movie, they [136:15] people couldn't believe how many people [136:17] there are missing. How many people? [136:19] >> There's probably at least 15 that have [136:22] never been found and it makes no sense. [136:26] And are they all hikers or what? Hikers, [136:29] photographers. [136:31] Uh, one kid worked for Alaska Airlines. [136:34] He went into the woods like every week [136:37] cuz he lived near Reineer. And on his [136:40] days off, he took uh pictures of the [136:42] mountain and panorama shots. And some of [136:45] his photos actually made it into the [136:47] national park headquarters. They're that [136:49] good. He went up to take pictures one [136:51] day. He has a tripod, real nice camera. [136:54] He disappears. They search for him for [136:56] 10 days, bringing canines, everything. [136:59] They can't find anything of him. Now, [137:01] this is one of those cases where, let's [137:03] say there was bear predation. [137:05] Yeah, there may be nothing left of him, [137:07] but the tripod will be there forever. [137:09] The camera is there forever, his boots, [137:12] his belt. But they never found anything. [137:16] There was a medical doctor that [137:18] disappeared just recently within the [137:20] last couple years hiking in that same [137:22] area. A a giant loop backpacking. [137:28] I think he was 34 years old. Absolute [137:31] genius guy. Came from UC Berkeley. Just [137:33] recently moved up to Seattle. Took a new [137:35] job. Went went on a backpacking loop [137:37] there. He disappeared. Never found [137:40] nothing. But there's it's repeatedly [137:42] this big search, find nothing, no [137:47] tracks, no scent trail, no evidence of [137:50] them being there in the same area where [137:52] there's dozens of sightings. [137:53] >> Yes. [137:55] Boy, if you wanted to get abducted, [137:57] that's the place to go if you really [137:59] want to find out what's going on. [138:02] Have you ever you ever thought about [138:04] Have you ever seen anything yourself [138:06] as far as what? As far as like something [138:08] that looks like it's from another [138:09] planet. Oh, we we've seen orbs and UFOs [138:13] many times. [138:14] >> Many times. [138:15] >> Yes. [138:15] >> Have you taken photos of them or [138:17] anything? [138:17] >> Uh, we have some. Yeah. [138:19] >> You got good ones? [138:20] >> Uh, there's a lot of really good orb [138:23] photos out there [138:24] >> and and so that's not unusual. [138:29] I think the [138:32] after what I've seen after I've made [138:33] five documentaries now, [138:36] I've seen 12 and 14 and 15 year olds do [138:39] things with special effects that if you [138:42] watched it on film, [138:44] >> right, [138:44] >> you wouldn't know if it was real or not. [138:45] >> Well, certainly today, [138:47] >> yeah, [138:47] >> today, I mean, all bets are off. You [138:49] really can't tell what's real and what's [138:50] not real. That's why somebody who sends [138:52] me a Bigfoot photo or UFO, I don't even [138:56] watch it because you can't tell what's [138:58] real anymore, [138:59] >> right? [139:01] >> You'd have to go all the way back for me [139:03] to film, actual film, and then I'll look [139:07] at it. Well, David, uh, thank you very [139:10] much for being here. It's certainly a [139:12] very interesting subject. I can't [139:14] imagine what your brain is like having [139:16] studied this for all these many years. [139:19] You got a very weird version of the [139:22] world that we live in because you you've [139:24] been inundated by this stuff for [139:25] decades. [139:27] But I think there's something there. I [139:29] don't know what it is. Do you? [139:32] I have to wait for that for maybe round [139:34] two, huh? [139:34] >> Okay. Round two. [139:36] >> Well, thank you very much. I was tell [139:38] everybody where they can find your work, [139:40] where they can watch your documentaries. [139:42] My two most recent movies, uh, Missing [139:45] 411, National Parks Washington State is [139:47] on Amazon. [139:49] Uh, American Sasquatch, Man, Myth, or [139:51] Monster is on Amazon. And then you can [139:53] watch my three movies for free on Tuby, [139:56] and that is Missing 411, that's the [139:58] number one, Missing411, The Hunted, and [140:01] Missing411: The UFO Connection. And my [140:04] website is missing411.com, [140:06] and it has all my books. [140:07] >> All right. Thank you very much. Well, [140:09] thank you, Joe. My pleasure. All right. [140:10] Bye everybody.