Pollan Challenges Brain-Centric Mind Model via Non-Neural Biology

波伦借非神经生物学挑战以大脑为中心的心智模型 意识觉知源于内脏稳态感受和细胞智能，而非大脑皮层认知，其运作机制是进化过滤器而非孤立的主观体验发生器。 Huberman 与 Pollan 深入探讨了意识的本质，通过探索植物感知、非神经记忆以及源自躯体和脑干的稳态感受，挑战了以大脑为中心的既有假设。他们剖析了致幻剂如何通过暂时消解自我来揭示更广阔的觉知，并讨论了其他心智模型，例如过滤理论及大脑作为接收器的假说。对话还探讨了系统性食品政治、由退役军人推动的跨党派致幻剂倡导，以及咖啡因摄入等日常习惯的神经化学细微差异。 神经生物学研究挑战了意识是大脑皮层独有副产物的观点，指出意识可能最初起源于上脑干记录的躯体稳态感受。 (42:51) 迷走神经中约有 80% 的信号是从内脏传入脑干的，这表明身体状态对认知、情绪和道德判断具有极大的塑造作用。 (51:56) 针对植物和细胞智能的实验表明，复杂的记忆、感觉整合以及自我回避算法完全可以在没有中枢神经元或硬编码基因机制的情况下运作。 (11:06) 由退役军人推动的跨党派倡导以及意想不到的政治联盟，加速推动了伊博格碱（ibogaine）和 MDMA 等致幻剂的临床与立法进展。 (104:52)

Michael Pollan and Andrew Huberman argue that standard materialist neuroscience fails to explain subjective experience, suggesting that consciousness, intelligence, and memory are not confined to cortical generation but extend into somatic feedback, non-neural biology, and ecological relationships. The Brain as Generator Versus Receiver (0:00) Pollan contends that conventional neuroscience has made surprisingly little progress in explaining how physical brain tissue could generate subjective, felt experience. Rather than viewing consciousness as an emergent byproduct of complex neural wiring, he explores filter theories proposed by thinkers like Henri Bergson and Aldous Huxley. Under this model, the brain functions as a 'reducing valve' or transceiver that tunes into and screens an external conscious field—analogous to a television receiving an ambient broadcast rather than creating the person visible on the screen. Non-Neural Problem-Solving in Plants and Xenobots (11:06) Pollan challenges genetic determinism by emphasizing goal-directed, non-neural intelligence across living organisms. Plants possess roughly twenty distinct sensory channels—measuring variables such as gravity, pH, acoustic frequencies, and nutrient gradients. For instance, corn roots navigate artificial mazes toward ammonium nitrate fertilizer, flora dispatch defensive chemical tannins upon hearing recordings of chewing caterpillars, and Venus flytraps temporarily lose their trigger reflex when exposed to xenon gas anesthesia. Similarly, developmental biologist Michael Levin's experiments with 'xenobots' show that tadpole skin cells can spontaneously coordinate cilia to navigate mazes and store bioelectric memories without neural tissue or genetic alterations. Somatic Feedback and the Microbial Superorganism (51:56) Cognitive and emotional states are heavily mediated by bodily feedback rather than originating solely within the cranium. Huberman confirms that approximately 80 percent of vagus nerve signaling travels upward from the visceral organs to the brain, with only 15 to 20 percent descending. To demonstrate how somatic comfort shapes intellectual appraisal, Pollan cites an experiment where subjects given stomach-soothing powdered ginger issued significantly milder moral condemnations of repulsive acts than placebo controls, demonstrating how higher-order judgment relies on a physical 'gut check.' Furthermore, Pollan reframes humans as superorganisms that have outsourced essential neurochemical manufacturing—including GABA, serotonin, and short-chain fatty acids—to resident gut microbiota in exchange for mobility and nutrients. Ego Dissolution and Bipartisan Coalition Building (61:11) Subjective awareness can fully persist even when an individual's sense of ego dissolves. Recalling his high-dose psilocybin experiences, Pollan describes watching his identity scatter into blue Post-it notes before merging directly into a Bach cello suite, illustrating that awareness remains intact without defensive identity boundaries. UC Berkeley researcher Dacher Keltner observed a similar psychological deflation of selfhood during profound awe, noting that participants drew stick-figure self-portraits roughly one-third smaller after awe-inspiring activities. Pollan and Huberman highlight that this pragmatic, prosocial dismantling of self-absorption mirrors the political evolution of psychedelic reform, where figures like MAPS founder Rick Doblin and former Texas Governor Rick Perry forged bipartisan coalitions with military veterans to advance clinical trials for substances like ibogaine to treat PTSD and addiction. Evaluating Psychoactive Molecules and Baseline Awareness (112:18) Examining caffeine—which Huberman notes is consumed daily by roughly 90 percent of adults worldwide—Pollan recounts a three-month abstinence fast inspired by psychopharmacologist Roland Griffiths. Griffiths emphasized that chronic daily users cannot understand their baseline consciousness until a drug completely leaves their system. Giving up caffeine caused Pollan severe cognitive disruption and lethargy, revealing the paradox of feeling more authentic on a psychoactive compound than when completely sober. Pollan argues that the historic 'war on drugs' created an arbitrary moral divide between accepted and illicit compounds, emphasizing that molecules are not intrinsically good or bad; their therapeutic or harmful consequences depend entirely on dosage, context, and intention. Pollan and Huberman conclude that examining non-human intelligence, bodily feedback loops, and altered states provides a more integrated understanding of mind, though science still lacks an empirical resolution to whether consciousness is manufactured by neural tissue or channeled from elsewhere.

作家兼学者 Michael Pollan 与神经生物学家 Andrew Huberman 探讨了意识的生物学与哲学本质，主张打破传统唯物主义将大脑视作唯一意识发生器的局限，将感知、智能与自我认同重新理解为横跨动植物、微生物及肉身躯体的分布式网络系统。 意识之谜：大脑是发生器还是接收器？ (0:00) 神经科学长期试图将意识解释为复杂神经网络中涌现的物理产物，但这一唯物主义假设在解释主观体验起源方面缺乏决定性的解释力。Pollan 认为，科学界不能排除“投射/接收模型”的可能性：大脑或许并非凭空制造意识，而是像收音机或电视天线一样，调谐并接入一个外部存在的意识场域。哲学家 Henri Bergson 与作家 Aldous Huxley 曾提出类似的过滤理论，认为大脑充当“减压阀”，其功能主要是筛除外界过载的庞大现实，仅允许生存所需的少量意识涓流进入。 Alison Gopnik 等学者指出，科学界或许陷入了将意识视为单一不可分割实体的误区，如同过去用“活力”或“燃素”来解释复杂生命现象。现代人工智能能够模拟目标导向的“主体性”（agentic ego），但 Pollan 强调，缺乏肉身脆弱性与稳态情绪感受的硅基计算无法产生真正的主观体验。用硬件与软件的机械隐喻来套用生物大脑存在根本缺陷，因为活体神经系统不存在静止芯片与软件的二元划分，其神经回路能在真实时间内重塑自身结构。 去中心化智能：植物感知与非神经系统记忆 (11:06) 智能与问题解决能力并不局限于具备中枢神经系统的动物。在植物神经生物学领域，植物展现出高度复杂的适应性：它们拥有约 20 种不同的感官通道，能够检测重力、土壤酸碱度、声学振动和养分浓度梯度。例如，玉米幼苗能在迷宫中主动计算并沿最佳路径生长以获取肥料；捕蝇草在暴露于氙气等挥发性麻醉剂后，会停止闭合诱捕昆虫。在微观层面，发育中的神经元轴突和植物根系均遵循简单的“自我回避”规则与化学梯度，在没有集中指挥蓝图的情况下构建出极其复杂的非重叠空间分支架构。 塔夫茨大学 Michael Levin 的实验进一步证明了非神经生物记忆的存在。从蝌蚪皮肤细胞分离出的“异种机器人”（xenobots）能在没有修改基因指令的情况下自发重组，将原本用于移动黏液的纤毛转变为游动桨，展现出迷宫导航、条件反射及通过生物电场储存记忆的能力。这种现象表明，演化筛选出的是认知灵活性与自组织问题解决能力，而非绝对硬编码的基因本能。 内脏与超有机体：身心一体的生物机制 (51:56) 人体主观感受与道德判断深受内脏生理状态的调控。Pollan 指出，迷走神经中约 80% 的神经纤维是从外周器官自下而上向大脑输送信号，仅有约 15% 到 20% 是从大脑向下的投射。人体对现实的即时情绪反应，可能是肝脏、胃、脾脏和心脏在过去数小时内代谢信号的累积整合。例如一项关于道德厌恶的研究显示，摄入能够舒缓胃部不适的生姜粉后，受试者对乱伦等违背道德情境的谴责程度显著降低，证明大脑的理性评判直接依赖于身体的“本能反应”（gut check）。 从微生物群落的视角来看，人体是一个相互依存的“超有机体”。肠道菌群不仅主导了人体内的基因多样性，还外包合成了人体所需的关键神经递质和神经调质（如 GABA、谷氨酸和血清素），以及用于脑部能量代谢和情绪稳定的短链脂肪酸。宿主提供养分、体温与移动便利，微生物则反馈维持神经稳定所必需的生物化学物质，两者共同构成了交织的共生关系。 自我边界消融与跨党派合作的务实转变 自我（ego）是大脑维持“我”与“他者”防御性边界的功能结构。Pollan 通过自身高剂量赛洛西宾体验描述，当自我感彻底瓦解时，清醒的感知依然能够客观存续，甚至产生个体与巴赫大提琴乐曲完全融合的体验。加州大学伯克利分校 Dacher Keltner 的研究同样显示，在激流漂筏等敬畏体验后，受试者绘制的自画像尺寸会缩小至原先的三分之一。日常维持长远目标需要健康的自我，但放下过度自我中心是达成集体共鸣的关键机制。 在政策与社会认知层面，迷幻剂与健康饮食正逐渐摆脱 1960 年代的反主流文化标签，转向务实的跨党派共识。例如，退伍军人组织联合前得克萨斯州州长 Rick Perry 与 MAPS 创始人 Rick Doblin 等跨党派力量，共同推动将伊博格碱（ibogaine）引入 FDA 针对严重创伤后应激障碍与创伤性脑损伤的临床试验轨道。Pollan 强调，物质本身并无绝对的道德好坏，其价值与风险完全取决于使用情境、剂量和意图，对待日常依赖的咖啡因与受监管的精神活性物质均应采取这一理性的去污名化态度。 本期对话揭示，无论是在宏观层面的政策倡导与物种共生，还是在微观层面的神经突触与肠脑连接，生命与意识均由错综复杂的网络共同编织。然而，科学界目前仍未解开物理神经元集群如何在时间维度上精确编码并调用主观记忆与感受的根本机制。

[0:00] Michael Pollan: You wouldn't look in the TV set for the woman who gave you the weather report, you know—she's not there. [23:43] Michael Pollan: Frank had a real catnip problem... he would get so wrecked on catnip that he would he would forget. And like that's a brilliant strategy on the part on the part of the um the plant to get your predator to forget where you are. [51:56] Andrew Huberman: Point to the neuroscientist. I teach neuroanatomy. You're right. It's 80%. The descending projection is about 15, 20%... you're exact on every neuroscience point you've made. [61:11] Michael Pollan: I suddenly saw myself explode into this cloud of blue Post-it notes that then fluttered to the ground and coalesced in this pool of blue paint. Beautiful. It was. And it was like, that sounds scary. But in fact, it was like, 'Yes, I'm blue paint. That's what I am.' [65:14] Michael Pollan: It could be that the brain channels consciousness... If you conceive of consciousness as like electromagnetic waves, brains are like radio receivers or TV receivers. You wouldn't look in the TV set for the woman who gave you the weather report. You know, she's not there. She's somewhere else. [77:45] Michael Pollan: the price of metaphor is eternal vigilance [78:12] Andrew Huberman: It would be like if I said, 'Oh, you know, this is the keys that you play in a song and it sounds like the song, or then I bang on all of them and you still get the song.' [84:06] Michael Pollan: You're not the only interested creature here. Your plants have interests, and to the extent you can satisfy their interest, they're going to give you what you want. [87:36] Michael Pollan: Eat food. Not too much. Mostly plants. [89:24] Michael Pollan: we need hope. It's our air. [89:24] Oakland Butcher: What is going on? You're the sixth person this week who asked me for grass-fed beef! [116:36] Michael Pollan: It was just the best drug experience. Better than any psychedelic experience I've had.

[0:00] I came out of this experience of [0:02] studying consciousness and looking at [0:04] all the theories of consciousness. I [0:06] don't want to give it away but we have [0:07] no idea about consciousness really how [0:10] it's how how brain matter generates [0:12] consciousness if indeed that's how it [0:14] happens and there are people who doubt [0:16] that's how it happens it could be that [0:18] the brain channels consciousness right I [0:20] mean that if you conceive of [0:22] consciousness as like electromagnetic [0:24] waves [0:26] >> um brains are like radio receivers or TV [0:28] receivers you wouldn't you wouldn't look [0:30] in the TV set for the woman who gave you [0:33] the weather report you know she's not [0:35] there she's [0:36] So I don't know that that's true but [0:38] coming out of this experience of [0:41] studying this I don't dismiss an idea [0:43] like that you have to keep an open mind [0:45] because our presumption that you know [0:48] consciousness is an emergent property of [0:51] brain complexity that idea doesn't have [0:53] much traction. Welcome to the Hubberman [0:56] Lab podcast where we discuss science and [0:58] science-based tools for everyday life. [1:04] I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor [1:06] of neurobiology and opthalmology at [1:08] Stanford School of Medicine. My guest [1:10] today is Michael Pollen, author of [1:12] landmark books including How to Change [1:14] Your Mind, which is about psychedelics, [1:17] The Botney of Desire, which is about how [1:19] humans and plants co-evolved and [1:21] collaborated to thrive. And The [1:23] Omnivore's Dilemma, which is an [1:24] incredible book about food and [1:26] nutrition, and most recently, the book A [1:29] World Appears: A Journey into [1:30] Consciousness. Michael Pollen is [1:32] considered by many, including me, to be [1:34] one of the most learned and thoughtful [1:36] people on topics that matter to all [1:38] humans and the things that we can do to [1:40] improve the human experience. Today, we [1:42] talk about many topics, but mostly we [1:44] focus on consciousness. And Michael [1:46] brings forward a new perspective that [1:48] integrates the best science on this [1:50] topic as well as philosophy and beyond. [1:52] And we get deep into this notion of the [1:54] ego, meaning our notion of self, and how [1:57] the ego is both important for and limits [1:59] our understanding of ourselves and life. [2:02] I should emphasize that the conversation [2:04] is not as abstract as I'm making it [2:05] sound. What I love about Michael Pollen [2:07] is he makes these topics very clear and [2:09] very concrete and in many cases [2:11] actionable. Thanks to Michael, by the [2:13] end of today's conversation, you will be [2:15] placed at the front edge of the [2:16] conversation and the data on this thing [2:18] that we call consciousness. You'll also [2:20] be versed on the latest of plant or what [2:22] is sometimes called psychedelic medicine [2:24] and perhaps most importantly what you [2:26] can do in your life to gain new [2:27] perspective on yourself, others, and the [2:30] planet at large. Before we begin, I'd [2:32] like to emphasize that this podcast is [2:34] separate from my teaching and research [2:35] roles at Stanford. It is however part of [2:37] my desire and effort to bring zero cost [2:39] to consumer information about science [2:41] and science related tools to the general [2:43] public. In keeping with that theme, [2:45] today's episode does include sponsors. [2:47] And now for my discussion with Michael [2:49] Pollen. Michael Pollen, welcome. [2:52] >> Thank you. Good to be here. [2:53] >> Longtime fan of your books, of you. I've [2:56] had the privilege of speaking on stage [2:59] next to you, although mostly I was just [3:01] listening to you because you are this [3:03] amazing intersection of science writer. [3:08] You've written about food, psychedelics, [3:10] now consciousness. You'll tell us about [3:11] your new work on microbiome. I feel like [3:14] there's also some Wendel Berry woven in [3:16] there. Big Wendleberry. [3:17] >> Good. I didn't insult you. I didn't [3:19] shout about that. [3:20] >> We just lost him, too. [3:21] >> Oh, is that right? [3:22] >> He died like two weeks ago. [3:23] >> Oh my goodness. I know. [3:24] >> I'm a I'm like a huge Wendleberry fan. [3:27] >> Really? Me, too. Oh my goodness. [3:28] >> He taught me how to write and he taught [3:30] me how to think about certain things. [3:33] But I, you know, he had a huge influence [3:34] on I was very fond of him. Did [3:36] >> you ever meet him? [3:37] >> Oh, yeah. We had I interviewed him on [3:39] stage a few times. He interviewed me uh [3:42] in Lexington, Kentucky, and um about one [3:45] of my books. And I went to his house uh [3:48] and saw the long-legged house where he [3:50] writes on the river. He was always [3:53] trying to convince people like us about [3:55] the beauty of the tobacco culture. [3:58] and he kind of bracketed the cigarette [4:01] piece and the lung cancer piece, but the [4:05] culture was so beautiful and it was the [4:07] one time where the whole community got [4:08] together and racial lines were crossed [4:11] and the and the barns are gorgeous that [4:13] you know the the the tobacco barns with [4:15] the slots for drying. So he he wanted me [4:18] to see those uh when I when I came [4:20] there. [4:20] >> Amazing. Yeah, I was feeling a little [4:22] anxious about bringing in that reference [4:24] in case you weren't a fan or you didn't [4:26] like his work, but clearly uh he was [4:28] calling in because um he was and for [4:30] those who don't know Wendel Barry is [4:32] this uh just magnificent poet who [4:34] >> and farmer and essaist. Yeah. And he um [4:39] you know actually when I was writing my [4:41] first book, Second Nature, I was trying [4:43] to figure out how to behave in the [4:45] garden. Um which is a microcosm of how [4:48] do we behave in nature, right? In other [4:50] words, I had pests. Uh, I had problems. [4:53] I had fertility issues. And the American [4:56] tradition of thinking about nature, [4:58] which goes back to Thorough and John [5:00] Mure and Emerson, is all about [5:03] celebrating the the wilderness and being [5:06] a spectator in nature. And of course, [5:09] the gardener can't afford to do that. [5:10] You have to act or you're not going to [5:12] have anything to eat. I had a headful of [5:15] thorough and Emerson from college and [5:17] graduate school and I was kind of [5:20] stymied about like what do I do about [5:22] weeds? You know there you telling me [5:25] weeds have just as much right to be in [5:26] your garden as the bean plant which is [5:28] crazy. But it was Wendell who who would [5:32] write these essays and he and he [5:34] convinced me, you know, he said we have [5:35] a legitimate quarrel with nature and [5:38] that our relationship is, you know, we [5:40] do have to make changes in nature to for [5:42] us to survive. And that's kind of who we [5:44] are is um the species who remakes nature [5:47] in various ways, but it has to be done [5:51] u sort of more like a marriage than a [5:53] domination. And uh so he just had a new [5:56] way of thinking about how to relate to [5:58] nature that really helped me and and [6:01] clarified my whole view of [6:02] environmentalism. So yeah, he's a great [6:05] hero. [6:05] >> Amazing. I'm saddened to hear that he [6:07] passed, but he certainly left behind. [6:11] >> Well, it's a pretty good run. [6:13] >> He had a very good run. [6:14] >> We will put some links to his work for [6:15] those that aren't familiar, and I [6:17] encourage anyone listening to just and [6:20] even those who are familiar with Wendell [6:21] to go read some of his poems. They're [6:23] they're they're an incredible journey [6:25] and uh [6:27] >> full stop. [6:28] >> Yeah. [6:28] >> Yeah, [6:29] >> I'm with you. [6:30] >> Let's talk about consciousness. [6:32] >> As a neuroscientist, I was taught to [6:33] avoid this [6:35] >> issue. I hear it was the kiss of death [6:37] at a certain point, right? [6:38] >> Neuroscientists who had were already [6:40] very accomplished and famous in some [6:42] specific domain like memory or [6:43] neuromuscular junctions or whatever [6:46] could talk about it. They had permission [6:47] once they had their prizes and their um [6:50] stature. But some people have died on [6:53] the bed of nails that is the [6:55] consciousness discussion. [6:56] >> I almost did. [6:58] >> Clearly not. But uh yeah, but maybe you [7:00] can tell us why why it's so so [7:02] precarious. But it's hard to define I [7:05] think is part of it. And uh kudos to you [7:07] for jumping in with uh both feet uh on [7:10] this one. So after having written a book [7:14] about consciousness essentially, do you [7:17] think that we can describe it in a [7:19] sentence? Can we give it an operational [7:21] definition or [7:22] >> it's such a strange phenomenon because [7:24] there is nothing we know with more [7:26] certainty than the fact that we're [7:27] conscious. It's the only thing we can be [7:30] sure of. Everything else we know through [7:32] consciousness, right? Everything else is [7:33] an inference, but we have this thing [7:36] that we know we have. But defining it is [7:39] difficult. So there are some very simple [7:41] definitions like subjective experience. [7:44] Um that's pretty good. Uh your toaster [7:47] doesn't have subjective experience. And [7:49] I would argue AIS don't have subjective [7:51] experience, but we can talk about that [7:53] later. Another popular, I don't know if [7:56] it's a definition exactly, is Thomas [7:58] Nagel, the uh the the philosopher in the [8:01] 1970s wrote a brilliant essay called [8:04] what is it like to be a bat? And his [8:08] point was if it is like anything, then [8:11] you're conscious. So, even though we [8:13] don't know exactly what it's like to be [8:14] a bat, we can kind of imagine a creature [8:17] that navigates the world through sonar, [8:19] through sound waves instead of uh light, [8:22] photons. And so, okay, we can imagine [8:25] that. So, yes, bats are conscious by [8:28] that definition. Um, so is it like [8:30] something to be a computer is a real [8:32] question that I think we're going to [8:33] have to face. That's kind of what I use [8:35] as a definition. There's a lot of bells [8:38] and whistles that that human [8:40] consciousness has above that. We're not [8:41] just aware, but we're aware that we're [8:43] aware. We have self-reflection or [8:46] metacognition. [8:47] Emotion, you know, add that in. So, I [8:51] think humans have a very elaborated [8:55] kind of consciousness compared to some [8:57] other creatures. I make a distinction in [8:59] the book between sensience and [9:01] consciousness that some scientists make [9:03] and I find really useful. Sensience [9:06] being a more basic kind of ground floor [9:09] of consciousness that uh includes [9:13] awareness of your environment and a [9:16] recognition of changes whether they're [9:18] good or bad and that may be universal [9:21] and that may be a property of life. Um, [9:23] you can make a case that uh plants have [9:26] sensience, that single-sellled creatures [9:29] have sensience, and it may be something [9:31] you need to survive in an environment [9:33] that's constantly changing that you [9:34] can't program instinctually everything [9:37] you need to know. So that this would be [9:39] very useful. And consciousness is how we [9:42] do sensience. You know, we've added on [9:44] all these things. And every creature has [9:46] its own version of sensience based on [9:49] their body type, their sensorium, their [9:52] the scale of uh at which they live in in [9:55] time and space cuz it's kind of to to to [9:59] take our our our version of [10:01] consciousness and make that the standard [10:02] for everybody seems kind of crazy. This [10:04] thing about being able to respond to the [10:07] environment being some key component of [10:09] consciousness. Um, a plant can respond [10:12] to the environment. A barnacle [10:14] >> can respond to the environment. [10:15] >> Bacteria can. [10:16] >> Bacteria can. They can light sense. It's [10:18] they actually know the difference [10:19] between morning and evening. [10:21] >> And they have chemotaxis. They know [10:22] between the difference between something [10:24] that's good to eat and something that's [10:25] toxic. [10:26] >> Do you think they know they know? This [10:28] is the piece that I feel like the the [10:30] responding and the awareness that one is [10:32] responding is maybe where in my mind I [10:34] want to draw the line for some reason. [10:36] like a plant will you know you know [10:39] furlur and unfurl uh when in the [10:41] presence of light but does it know it's [10:43] responding and why I mean I suppose we [10:47] all the time respond to things and don't [10:48] know why but usually like I if I take a [10:50] sip of this tea and and it's too hot um [10:53] I have some sense of what I'm going to [10:56] do next and why I feel like the the [10:58] other stuff is just reflexive. Yeah, [11:01] it's reflexive, but it I I don't think [11:03] it's it's uh always programmed. I think [11:06] that there are novel situations that [11:08] even a plant confronts where they have [11:10] to have an intelligent response that [11:13] isn't necessarily um something [11:15] programmed in their genes. I mean, I I [11:18] took a deep dive into this field of [11:21] plant intelligence, which is [11:22] fascinating. I mean, the things we're [11:24] learning that plants can do that you [11:25] would not have guessed. I mean, you can [11:27] take a corn plant and uh it can navigate [11:31] a maze. You can give it a maze and and [11:33] put some uh fertilizer, some ammonium [11:36] nitrate in one like corner of it and the [11:39] roots will find the fastest uh path to [11:42] that ammonium nitrate. That's not a [11:45] situation it really experiences in [11:47] nature. It has to um that takes a [11:50] certain kind of intelligence, problem [11:52] solving ability. If you play the sound [11:55] of caterpillars chomping on leaves for a [11:57] plant, they will react to the sound uh [12:01] and send uh either toxins or bad tasting [12:04] chemicals to that leaf to defend [12:06] themselves. They can respond to the [12:09] sound of water and they will and they're [12:11] if they if they feel if they hear water [12:13] running through a pipe, they will go [12:15] down. They have like 20 senses. We have [12:18] five or six. [12:19] >> They can sense gravity, which we can't [12:21] do. They they can sense pH. They can [12:23] sense um uh whether nutrient levels are [12:27] on a positive gradient or negative [12:30] gradient. I mean, it's remarkable. One [12:32] of the to me most curious things about [12:36] plants is that they respond to the same [12:39] anesthetics we do. Now, you might think, [12:42] what does it mean to put a plant out? Um [12:45] aren't they already out? But actually, [12:47] they're just slow. They have behaviors. [12:49] They're just very slow. So you take a [12:51] you take a plant with a really fast [12:52] behavior like a Venus fly trap and you [12:55] put it in a bell jar and you put some [12:58] anesthetic gas in xenon gas or or any [13:01] number of uh you know anything you can [13:03] put in gas form and they will not [13:05] respond to uh an insect crossing their [13:08] threshold where normally they would [13:11] clamp down. So that raises a really [13:14] interesting question. What exactly are [13:16] they losing when they are under? We [13:19] would say consciousness, but that's a [13:22] long way to go. I mean, I don't use the [13:23] word consciousness for plants, although [13:25] I met scientists who do, but I would say [13:27] that's sensience that that that that [13:30] there's a loss of sensience that's [13:32] happening when when they uh are [13:34] anesthetized. But as you know, [13:36] anesthetics are really weird. We don't [13:38] even know how they work on us, right? I [13:39] mean, xenon gas is inert gas and it puts [13:42] you out. How does that work? [13:44] >> This scare anyone going in for surgery. [13:46] The anesthesia anesthesiologists have [13:48] gotten much better. Yes, they know what [13:50] they're doing. [13:50] >> They know what they're doing. [13:52] >> I'd like to take a quick break and [13:53] acknowledge our sponsor, Eight Sleep. [13:56] Eight makes smart mattress covers with [13:57] cooling, heating, and sleep tracking [13:59] capacity. Eightlee just launched the Pod [14:01] 6, which is their most advanced sleep [14:04] system. The Pod 6 is half the size of [14:06] their previous models. It's 20% faster [14:08] with its cooling and heating, and it has [14:10] nine times as many sensors for tracking [14:12] your sleep. The reason why eight sleep [14:14] is so effective at improving your sleep [14:16] quality and duration is because it helps [14:18] control your core body temperature. 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In fact, I consider it [16:24] a welcome addition to my kitchen. It [16:26] looks great, and the water is delicious. [16:28] If you'd like to try Rora, you can go to [16:30] roora.com/huberman [16:32] and get an exclusive discount. Again, [16:34] that's r o r a.com/huberman. [16:39] Can we go at self versus other as maybe [16:43] one potential window into this? I I [16:45] don't want to make any assumptions, but [16:47] when I think about the consciousness [16:48] problem, I I think most people know that [16:51] they are them and they know what's not [16:53] them. And uh maybe a decent analogy is [16:57] when nerve cells grow, they know the [17:00] difference between them and other cells. [17:03] So at the cellular level, you know, this [17:05] is already set up. And in fact, I love [17:08] your example of the the root growing [17:10] towards the fertilizer because you can [17:13] give a nerve cell a simple rule, all [17:15] nerve cells a simple rule, which is [17:16] essentially grow out as far as you can [17:18] and connect with as many other nerve [17:20] cells as you possibly can [17:23] and know the difference between you and [17:25] other. And if you do that [17:26] >> even within the same species. [17:28] >> Yeah. So, you know, and there are some [17:30] exceptions to this, but it turns out to [17:32] be it's not straightforward to build a [17:33] brain, but you don't need a ton of [17:35] signals. You need signals that say grow [17:37] here and you need signals that say you [17:39] may not grow here. [17:40] >> What we call cheotractants and chem [17:42] repellants. And then if you think about [17:44] that the the dendrites and axons that [17:46] the branches of the neurons they often [17:48] have these beautiful architectures. [17:49] Those are set up by a simple rule of [17:51] self- avoidance. Mhm. [17:52] >> You they the branches know that they are [17:55] that they're in the same of the same [17:56] neuron and they just keep growing and [17:58] they keep branching every time they get [18:00] too close to one of their own and then [18:02] you end up with these beautiful [18:02] architectures depending on what other [18:04] cells are doing that around you. That's [18:06] how you get the all these different cell [18:08] types and there's other features to it [18:10] too. [18:11] >> And I was shocked and excited to learn [18:12] that that's kind of how tree roots do it [18:14] too. [18:15] >> Yes, I was going to say. [18:16] >> So simple rules can build immense [18:18] complexity. That that's that's the the [18:19] point. And the self recognizing self [18:22] versus other and then a simple rule of [18:25] get as much stuff as you can. It sounds [18:27] very selfish, right? Sets up a great [18:30] system actually because then everyone's [18:32] doing that and you end up with [18:34] essentially a tiled system. [18:35] >> No tree, no neuron gets too much space, [18:38] >> right? [18:38] >> And while this is all very cellular and [18:41] we're literally talking about the [18:42] branches of cells, it's not, you know, [18:44] thinking. I feel like when you get up to [18:47] the whole organism, I know the [18:48] difference between me and you, me and [18:50] the microphone. [18:51] >> These plants seem to know the difference [18:52] between them and the fertilizer. [18:55] >> So, this lack of confusion about what's [18:57] me and what's not me seems to be like [18:59] the most important rule that perhaps [19:01] builds up to the consciousness thing. [19:03] It's just perhaps [19:04] >> it's really an important rule and you [19:06] see it in plant roots too because if you [19:09] put uh two plants that are related to [19:12] one another have some genetic connection [19:14] but are separate plants they will share [19:17] soil [19:18] >> and grow together and but if they're not [19:21] related even if they're the same species [19:24] they will compete. ditto, you know, the [19:27] plant that um when plants are shaded by [19:30] another plant, they grow fast to get [19:32] above it. But if they're shaded by [19:34] themselves closer to your example, they [19:37] don't they know like, well, that's we're [19:40] getting we're getting the light over [19:41] there, so I don't have to go there. But [19:43] yeah, I think the self and other is is [19:45] is a key rule and and I I completely [19:48] agree that you can take a set of very [19:50] simple rules and build a very complex [19:53] creature from it. how that gets you to [19:55] consciousness. I mean self and others an [19:58] important part of consciousness although [20:01] and I talk about the self as kind of the [20:03] most elaborate or advanced manifestation [20:05] of consciousness. It turns out you can [20:07] have consciousness without a self and [20:10] that's um uh you know I mean meditators [20:13] know this um psychedelics give you and [20:16] it can give you an experience of [20:18] consciousness without a self. I think we [20:20] have it every morning when we wake up. [20:22] There's that 500 milliseconds, you know, [20:25] when you're reconstituting like who am [20:27] I? Where am I? Oh, you know, here I am. [20:30] >> And it's 750 milliseconds if you're in a [20:32] hotel room as I realized this morning. [20:35] >> Yes, [20:36] >> that's kind of weird that you can have [20:37] that there is a there is a consciousness [20:39] that is uh not organized around a self. [20:44] And um uh you know, Buddhists have known [20:46] this for a long time, but it's it's it's [20:48] a strange idea. Going back to the the [20:50] plants and their intelligence, you know, [20:52] I've spent a little bit of time with [20:53] people in the plant medicine community. [20:55] Not a lot. I'm not a you like a heavy [20:57] psychonaut or anything, but [20:59] >> there does seem to be this understanding [21:01] there. And I I don't think it's just [21:02] conjecture. I think it's a real [21:03] understanding of people who spend time [21:05] in the jungle, who spend time with plant [21:07] medicines. Even pharmacists in this [21:10] country will tell you that most drugs [21:11] were bioprocted from the jungle. big [21:14] pharma are isolated compounds [21:16] synthesized, you know, um, as you know, [21:19] uh, from jungle plants and other plants. [21:22] So, there's this notion that the plants [21:24] actually can sense us and that they're [21:28] communicating with us. I know this [21:29] sounds really wacky, but we can [21:31] certainly see them. We can smell them. [21:34] They can have, you know, odor effects on [21:36] us. Uh, some are poisonous, some are [21:38] delicious and and wonderful for for us. [21:41] They're nourishing. What do you think [21:43] about this sort of cross species [21:45] communication? Do you think it's a a [21:47] real thing having spent some time you [21:49] spent a lot of time on about [21:51] >> writing about plants in a garden? Like [21:54] my mom gardens and she is convinced and [21:57] she's a very rational person. She is [21:59] convinced that talking to the plants [22:02] while she plants them has a real effect [22:05] on the relationship between her and [22:07] these plants. I mean, she's not thinking [22:08] that they can hear and understand the [22:10] language, but that there's some sort of [22:12] energetic transfer there. And I don't [22:14] think she's alone. People who garden [22:16] have a relationship to the plants, and I [22:18] certainly feel this way about my dog, to [22:20] some extent, my fish, although to a [22:22] lesser extent. So, [22:24] >> I don't think it's entirely crazy. [22:26] >> I don't think it's crazy. I think that [22:28] um [22:30] I haven't had that experience myself. I [22:32] I did have an experience and this was [22:35] talk about plant medicine on on [22:37] psilocybin that I described in my book [22:39] of um feeling that the plants in my [22:42] garden were conscious and um aware and [22:46] returning my gaze and they were very [22:48] benevolent and I took good care of them. [22:50] That's good. Otherwise, it could get [22:52] scary. [22:52] >> Yeah. Yeah. [22:53] >> And I didn't know what to do with that. [22:55] I mean there's a whole question with [22:57] insights you have on psychedelics like [22:59] do they have any value and how do you [23:01] judge their value and in my case I [23:05] thought back to William James who had [23:07] written in in varieties of mystical [23:09] experience uh that you can't really [23:12] judge the veracity of a of a big insight [23:15] on a mystical experience because we [23:18] don't know enough but there are two ways [23:20] to think about it. Is it a useful thing? [23:22] Is it pragmatic to believe that? And [23:24] that's one argument in favor. And the [23:26] other is treat it as a hypothesis and [23:30] see if you can find other ways of [23:31] knowing scientific or or otherwise that [23:34] could uh support that idea. And that's [23:36] what got me into plant um you know [23:39] learning about plant intelligence and [23:40] plant sensience. We are in relationship [23:43] with plants domesticated plants in [23:45] particular. I think they manipulate us [23:47] in various ways. But it's it's not at [23:50] the level of the individual plant. and [23:51] it's at the level of the this the [23:53] evolution of the species. So um you know [23:57] corn came to dominate the landscape in [24:00] much of the world because it figured out [24:03] what we wanted from it. And when I say [24:05] figured out I mean purely by trial and [24:07] error. Cannabis too. Cannabis was you [24:10] know this plant you know located in [24:13] western China I guess and now it's [24:15] everywhere. And the reason it did is it [24:18] learned that we respond if it produced [24:22] this chemical called THC, [24:24] it was going to get carried around the [24:26] world and reproduced. And so I I I think [24:30] we're in this symbiotic relationship [24:32] with plants and that they they do [24:34] manipulate us. They're um geniuses at [24:37] biochemistry as you suggest, you know, [24:40] and that's a function of the fact that [24:41] they can't get up and run away, right? [24:44] They're rooted. They're cesile as it's [24:46] called. And so instead of consciousness [24:49] like we have and mo and uh the ability [24:52] to move around, they they develop [24:55] chemicals, this incredible suite of [24:58] chemicals. And they hit on some [25:00] chemicals that happen to change our [25:03] consciousness. And this has been one of [25:05] the most successful um strategies. Uh [25:08] coffee and tea are are great examples. [25:11] They didn't originally make these [25:13] chemicals for us. They're probably [25:15] defense chemicals, but what's [25:18] interesting about the defense chemicals [25:19] that they produce is that they're not [25:21] they don't kill anything. I mean, [25:23] caffeine might kill insects, some [25:25] insects. But somewhere along the line, [25:28] they learned that it was better to just [25:30] kind of with your mind than kill [25:33] you outright. Because if they killed you [25:35] outright, you would very quickly develop [25:37] resistance, right? You'd select for [25:39] resistant members of the species. [25:42] The way I learned this, it was courtesy [25:44] of my cat, Frank. Frank had a real [25:47] catnip problem. And uh every night, [25:51] Frank, uh I would go down to my garden [25:53] to, you know, harvest some lettuce or [25:55] something like that. And I had a catnip [25:57] plant. And this is in a fenced garden. [25:59] And Frank would follow me and look at [26:01] me. And he needed to be reminded where [26:03] the catnip was. It's like, you know, why [26:07] don't you know where it is? because he [26:09] would get so wrecked on catnip that he [26:12] would he would forget. And like that's a [26:14] brilliant strategy on the part on the [26:17] part of the um the plant to get your [26:20] predator to forget where you are. [26:22] >> Amazing. [26:23] >> And the other thing they do, of course, [26:24] many plant chemicals, psychoactive [26:27] chemicals diminish your appetite. [26:29] Another brilliant strategy. So I have [26:31] enormous respect for what they do and [26:33] what they do to us and I really see them [26:35] as active players in this drama. I wrote [26:37] a book called Botney of Desire which [26:39] really looked at how plants have [26:41] mastered our desires as their as their [26:44] evolutionary strategy. Desires for [26:47] beauty in the case of flowers um desires [26:50] for to change consciousness. Uh desires [26:53] for food. So I have ultimate respect for [26:56] their ingenuity. When you say they've um [27:00] that plants have figured out, do you [27:02] mean that that sticking with the you [27:04] know the rule of evolution, you just [27:06] want to make as much of you yourself as [27:08] you possibly can? [27:09] >> Yeah. [27:09] >> In species that nurture young, nurture [27:11] young, protect young, proliferate, die, [27:15] repeat, right? I mean that's it's like a [27:16] harsh way of thinking about it, but [27:17] that's those are essentially the simple [27:18] rules of evolution. try not to die. Try [27:21] to at least live long enough to [27:22] proliferate and make sure that the young [27:24] make it to [27:24] >> and in retrospect it looks like you [27:26] figured something out. But in fact, [27:28] you're just trying things and certain [27:29] things work and the plants that you know [27:32] had the most caffeine say um [27:34] proliferated in a way the ones that had [27:36] the least caffeine did not. Mhm. I mean, [27:39] I think about dogs a lot cuz I love [27:41] them. And I'm told that dogs descended [27:45] from wolves that figured out that if [27:48] they were kind enough and they were [27:51] patient enough, they might get scraps of [27:52] food and eventually that led to the [27:54] domestication and the expansion of all [27:55] these different breeds of dogs. I mean, [27:57] I think that's essentially the story. [27:59] So, and they're not getting together and [28:01] having a little, you know, backroom [28:03] conversation like we've almost got them. [28:05] But, but they so and that's certainly [28:07] been advantageous for the domestic dog. [28:10] Um, they're very well treated, better [28:11] than some humans, in fact. [28:12] >> Yeah. And there are only 50,000 wolves [28:14] left in this country. And how many dogs [28:16] are there? It was a good strategy, [28:18] >> right? Yeah. And and I feel like more [28:19] people have dogs now than when I was [28:21] growing up. [28:22] >> Well, co led to a lot of people getting [28:25] dogs. [28:25] >> Yeah. So it's it's most people don't get [28:27] dogs to to do work. They get dogs to be [28:30] family members. And so they're really [28:32] they're really figuring stuff out. They [28:34] got us. [28:34] >> They got us. Um but this figuring stuff [28:37] out thing is is as it relates to [28:39] consciousness is um maybe it brings us [28:41] back to the definitions. So does that [28:43] mean that you don't have to have [28:44] self-awareness that you're doing it? [28:46] Plants probably don't realize they're [28:48] doing this. They're just following a [28:49] rule that's scripted into their genome. [28:51] >> Um try and get resources, feel good, not [28:54] pain in the moment. and proliferate take [28:56] care of young and so forth. Yeah. So do [28:58] you think that this consciousness like [29:00] of plants or of dogs or of humans can [29:04] emerge through the simple flipping of [29:06] switches that are hardwired into us or [29:08] do they have any say in this? Like do [29:10] they realize um that they're doing [29:14] better for the next generation? Because [29:16] plants don't get to see what happens to [29:18] their seeds. And in most cases, dogs [29:21] don't really know what happens to their [29:23] puppies once they're, you know, um, [29:25] adopted out. [29:26] >> Yeah. [29:27] >> Humans are unique in this way. [29:28] >> Oh, I think we are. I mean, I think we [29:30] have a uh an awareness, a [29:32] self-awareness, um, and a sense of, uh, [29:36] you know, we can time travel. You know, [29:38] your dog probably can time travel a few [29:40] minutes or maybe a half hour if it's [29:42] really hungry, you know. Um, but we have [29:45] the ability to to imagine the future. [29:48] Uh, even a future we're not in. Um, [29:51] that's one of the things that's special [29:53] about our consciousness. I mean, you [29:54] know, well that our brains are doing a [29:57] lot more than we're aware of, right? I [29:59] mean, 24/7 they're monitoring our body, [30:01] you know, reading these interosceptive [30:03] signals and making adjustments and [30:06] taking in things from the environment [30:07] without our awareness. Um, so the [30:10] question is why does anything have to [30:12] rise to the level of awareness? Why why [30:15] wasn't it all automated? I think that's [30:17] one of the mysteries. The best [30:19] explanation I heard of why that should [30:22] be, and this is sort of an evolutionary [30:24] just so story, but it's a pretty [30:26] persuasive one, is because we are uh [30:30] fundamentally social beings that live in [30:33] a very and and and being in a human [30:35] society is incredibly complex [30:37] environment in which you can't program [30:40] every move you have to make. There is a [30:43] great evolutionary utility in being able [30:45] to read the mind of another person and [30:47] anticipate what they're going to do or [30:49] say to predict. And um this is something [30:53] that um you need theory of mind for or [30:57] or imagination at the very least. And [31:00] that strikes me as a pretty good [31:02] explanation of why you would have gone [31:05] beyond automatic response to something [31:09] much more uh deliberate and aware and I [31:12] don't think plants have that. But I do [31:15] think that evolution um I really agree. [31:18] Michael Leaven is a biologist at TUS uh [31:21] who who works with you know creates [31:24] little creatures you know organoids and [31:26] um what he calls and he's shown that [31:30] there are behaviors that are not [31:33] dictated by the genes that um that what [31:37] evolution creates is cognitive beings [31:39] that are very good at solving novel [31:41] problems. I mean a lot of his project is [31:44] actually deemphasizing genes and showing [31:46] that that uh and deemphasizing neurons [31:50] too. You know he he also shows that that [31:53] >> I accept all of biology. It just so [31:55] happens I'm only trained to understand [31:57] the the brain stuff. [31:58] >> Well he's you know he's shown that um [32:00] memory resides in not necessarily in in [32:03] neurons there other other way. Yeah. [32:05] >> Yeah. The immune system is a good [32:07] example. He looks at bioelectric fields [32:09] and that these can hold memories uh in [32:12] in groups of cells and that these [32:14] xenobots that he creates [32:16] uh from and he he he does this with um [32:19] taking uh skin cells from tadpoles and [32:21] he puts it in a solution and they clump [32:23] together and they form a new organism. [32:25] It only lasts about a week or two. And [32:28] that organism repurposes their psyia so [32:31] they can have a means of locomotion and [32:34] they can be conditioned and navigate [32:36] mazes. There's nothing in their genes [32:39] that's in encoding those instructions. [32:41] Anyway, it's it's taken them to a very [32:44] odd place in biology. You know, we used [32:46] to hear a lot about the word instinct. [32:47] It's funny, you don't hear about it [32:49] nearly as much anymore. [32:50] >> Yeah, you're right. And I think that [32:51] there are things going on that are are [32:53] um products of just an intelligent a [32:56] being with enough tools and and [32:58] cognitive ability to navigate an [33:01] unfamiliar world. That's what it takes [33:04] to survive in in evolution. When Caesar [33:06] Milan, the dog whisperer, came on this [33:08] podcast, he uh he said because he came [33:11] from a very uh poor uh rural background, [33:14] but he said, you know, people who grow [33:16] up in that environment um have [33:18] incredible instincts about what is safe, [33:20] what's not safe. You know, he saw a lot [33:22] of death from a young age. [33:24] >> Uh people died every day. Um and you [33:26] know, stakes were very high. Um and [33:28] resources were low. And he said, you [33:30] know, that you see a completely [33:31] different side of humans. And it's not [33:33] all bad. I mean that's the bad stuff [33:35] that drives the emergence. Also some [33:37] really beautiful stuff like you said you [33:39] kids grow up learning where safe harbor [33:42] is in in people and they they can really [33:45] sense people and animals very well in a [33:48] way that in um more affluent societies [33:51] we we have all these buffers you know um [33:54] and and it struck me as like okay that's [33:56] super interesting because I feel like [33:58] >> as a neuroscientist I think of okay [34:00] there are parts of the brain that are [34:01] purely autonomic taking care of heart [34:03] rate there's stuff that switches like if [34:04] we activate it people go into a age. No [34:06] one likes to think about this, but yes, [34:08] for them to this would happen. But then [34:10] there's all the other stuff that's make, [34:11] you know, where we can control our [34:12] impulses and um think about past, [34:15] present, and future and build [34:16] technologies and it's a quotequote [34:18] evolved stuff. It's just, you know, [34:19] higher order what whatever the language [34:21] never quite works, you know, um always [34:23] makes it sound hierarchical cuz I would [34:25] die in the environment that uh Cesar was [34:28] describing, right? Um so higher order [34:30] isn't fair. But in any case, I feel like [34:33] this damn prefrontal cortex expansion [34:36] that happened in humans. Here's here's [34:38] where I get really I lose a lot of sleep [34:40] over this. And you're the perfect person [34:42] to ask this. I've asked a few guests, [34:44] >> but um I have this big problem lately, [34:48] which is I think that [34:50] >> I know that humans got a lot more [34:51] prefrontal cortex real estate, the area [34:54] that lets us strategy set, understand [34:56] context, integrate, imagine. Great. But [34:59] I worry that it's that we have enough of [35:01] it that we perhaps have tricked [35:03] ourselves into over um investing in our [35:08] own importance and our and actually the [35:12] whole [35:13] meaning and of being here and and here's [35:16] where it gets to the microbiome. I'll [35:17] try and make this very quick. Justin [35:19] Sonnenberg, my colleague who you know at [35:22] Stanford working on the microbiome [35:24] scared [35:25] >> I want to say the out of me but [35:26] then pun no pun intended [35:28] >> when he said you know these microbiota [35:30] that live in all of us and create these [35:31] critical chemicals for brain health and [35:34] it can impact our behavior whether or [35:35] not we feel sick or more energetic more [35:38] outgoing I mean there's this incredible [35:40] array of ways they influence us [35:42] >> he said when we shake hands like we did [35:44] today the second time in our lives or [35:47] when we um you know if we kiss our [35:50] romantic partner or if we um you know [35:52] exchange a bill or a credit card swipe [35:55] or something at with microbiome is [35:57] proliferating and moving and I get [36:00] really worked up lately in my own head [36:01] about the possibility that all this [36:03] stuff like trying to go to Mars um [36:05] trying to uh navigate the political [36:09] barbed wire that is the United States [36:11] and the world right now wars all of it I [36:15] worry that all of it is just the damn [36:18] and microbiota trying us to trying to [36:20] get us to interact with as many other [36:22] people as possible and they aren't [36:25] sitting there chuckling um cackling [36:28] thinking about how we are losing out uh [36:31] and suffering or feeling great while we [36:34] do this but I just worry that perhaps [36:36] Sonnenberg's theory is right which is [36:39] we're literally just vehicles and that [36:44] >> keeps me up at night I confess it does [36:46] >> really [36:46] >> but it also keeps me up at night because [36:49] I can only have that thought, that [36:51] concern because of this excessive [36:53] prefrontal cortex real estate. [36:54] Otherwise, I would just be busy trying [36:56] to get my food and nourishment [36:58] proliferate and so on. So, that's two. [37:00] So, it sort of bookends the two sort of [37:03] levels of quote unquote sophistication [37:04] like higher order brain function in [37:07] humans, building technologies, [37:08] creativity, symphonies, spaceships, [37:13] poetry, and on and on. We think it's so [37:15] important and it is, [37:16] >> but whatever we're diluting ourselves, [37:18] it's all just about [37:21] >> getting the these microbiota getting us [37:24] to get them where they want to go. [37:25] >> You know, they've been around a lot [37:26] longer than we have, right? I mean, we [37:28] evolved in a world dominated by bacteria [37:32] and other microbes. And um so from their [37:36] perspective, I think it's a perspectival [37:38] question, but from their perspective, [37:40] this animal comes along that offers [37:43] certain advantages like can go all over [37:47] the world um and maybe to outer space if [37:50] they want to go there. I don't think [37:52] they'll do very well there. But so [37:53] there's a sense in which it's true, but [37:56] it's also true that we're calling the [37:58] shots in some ways from our perspective. [38:00] But it but we should realize I mean [38:02] that's the subtitle of botney desire was [38:04] a plant's eye view of the world and [38:07] there is a perspective and it's just as [38:09] legitimate um in which we are dupes of [38:14] these bacteria and that yes they want us [38:18] to shake hands. They want us to do all [38:20] sorts of things because that this [38:21] extends their their range and they want [38:23] us to be sociable too. you know, if we [38:26] were all, you know, kind of shy and [38:28] introverted, it would not serve their [38:29] purposes. And they are influencing our [38:31] moods. So, it is kind of creepy in a [38:34] way, but it's also kind of beautiful [38:36] that, you know, we don't, you know, that [38:38] that life is using us and and um uh that [38:42] we are a collective being too. I mean we [38:45] are we are a super organism you know and [38:48] we have we have you know more genes more [38:52] bacterial genes in our body than we have [38:54] human genes and we need those genes [38:57] that's the other thing I mean the other [38:58] story about it is you could also argue [39:01] that we are manipulating them in that we [39:06] have outsourced the and Justin's done [39:08] really good work on this u we have [39:11] outsourced the making of all sorts of [39:13] metabolites [39:14] bacterial metabolites, chemicals we [39:16] need. Um, glutamate, GABA, serotonin, [39:21] um, I mean, they're making and and then [39:23] all these short- chain fatty acids that [39:25] are a fuel for our brain, but also are [39:28] um, calming our moods, you know, [39:30] reducing our anxiety. [39:33] So, instead of learning how to make [39:35] those chemicals ourselves, we kind of [39:37] ingeniously figured out that we could [39:39] host these bacteria and they would make [39:41] them for us. So, we're manipulating them [39:43] at the same time they're manipulating [39:44] us. I think it's a two-way street. [39:46] >> Okay, that's a fair touch. [39:47] >> Hope that helps you sleep. [39:49] >> Yeah. Well, yes. I maybe if we don't [39:51] make it to Mars, it will be because it [39:53] will be because [39:54] >> they don't want to go. [39:55] >> They get they get up there and they make [39:56] people very sick and they die and they [39:59] and it So, in that sense, um maybe it [40:02] better or worse for everyone. Who knows? [40:03] I I don't have any theories about how [40:05] this should all go. [40:06] >> See, space food is very bad for [40:08] bacteria, right? It's it's incredibly [40:10] sanitary. It's it talk about [40:12] ultrarocessed food. This, you know, the [40:14] kind of stuff they bring on on [40:15] intergalactic travel is going to be [40:17] really bad for the bacteria. [40:19] >> Yeah. So, if we don't make it, it's [40:21] bacteria know that they don't want to [40:24] make it there. Not good for them. [40:25] >> They know it's they know Mars is a [40:28] shitty habitat. [40:28] >> Exactly. I'm only half kidding about [40:31] this one and I'm going to try and steer [40:32] off it so that I don't, you know, spiral [40:34] into the the concern about it because [40:36] it's not really a concern. I think that [40:39] it gets to another layer perhaps of this [40:42] consciousness question which is about [40:44] meaning. You know, part of the function [40:46] of the prefrontal cortex is that we can [40:48] assign meaning to things, [40:50] >> right? Like we both like Wendelberry, [40:52] >> you know him better than I do, but we [40:54] both have feelings associated with [40:55] memories. I I can go as deep into this [40:58] as as I'll allow myself to. Like I like [41:02] the feeling of the paper like is [41:03] different for a Wendel Berry poem only [41:05] because that was my experience. So I can [41:07] place all this meaning on top of things [41:09] and that's related to memory and so on. [41:11] And [41:12] >> we don't know that other species do [41:14] that, right? Um I like to think dogs and [41:17] cats and apes do that. [41:19] >> Elephants perhaps. [41:21] >> Yeah. Um we know self versus other. [41:24] Yeah, I mean I I try and break it down [41:26] to that because I saw this um one of [41:28] these beautiful nature documentaries [41:30] where they were essentially talking [41:31] about these male lions fighting and you [41:33] know their hypothalamus looks a lot like [41:35] ours and we know the structure [41:36] ventromedial hypothalamus a subset of [41:38] neurons there if you know mice have [41:41] them, we have them, they have them and [41:42] these two male lions are basically [41:44] trying to kill each other. But then [41:46] there's another scene where one is [41:48] getting attacked by hyenas and all of a [41:50] sudden a different switch gets flipped [41:51] where the lion who was just arguably [41:55] should let the other one die understands [41:58] this us them thing and goes and [42:00] essentially fights them off and and it's [42:02] very dramatic and the hyenas are the [42:04] hyenas are trying to castrate the lions. [42:06] It's like a It's as brutal as nature [42:08] gets in that moment, but also as [42:10] beautiful as it gets because it [42:12] illustrates that two members of the same [42:14] species that are trying to kill each [42:15] other when one is under threat, all of a [42:17] sudden the contingency changes. Yeah. [42:20] >> So they have enough prefrontal cortex to [42:21] take the same circuitry. It's still [42:23] aggression and now directed in a new [42:25] >> but they redefine the us, right? The the [42:28] eye is now plural. [42:30] >> Yeah. So it's dynamic. And the reason [42:31] I'm asking this, I'd love your thoughts [42:33] on this, [42:34] >> but I'm seing a question about [42:36] collective consciousness. And and so [42:39] this us thing within and across species [42:42] to me feels like a a critical gate for [42:46] for getting closer to understanding what [42:48] is consciousness, at least for me. Maybe [42:49] I'm too simplistic about it. I mean, I [42:52] guess I'd attack it from another [42:53] direction, which is, you know, you've [42:55] been talking about the cortex and yeah, [42:58] the cortex is very cool and we have a [43:00] lot of that real estate and that's sort [43:01] of what sets us apart and for a long [43:03] time it was believed that consciousness [43:06] surely as this advanced human [43:09] achievement because remember we didn't [43:11] think anybody else was conscious for [43:13] hundreds of years, right? Since Decart, [43:15] we had a monopoly on consciousness. It's [43:17] only I think in 1970 the first [43:20] experiment mirror test uh on a on a [43:23] chimp and we started thinking oh these [43:26] primates are conscious also. I mean we [43:29] that's a fairly recent that's 50 years [43:31] ago 55 years ago. [43:33] >> It was assumed that consciousness was a [43:35] cortical phenomenon. [43:37] There is another line of research though [43:39] that I've been that I was persuaded by [43:42] um starting with Antonio Damasio in the [43:45] '9s and going through Mark SS more [43:48] recently uh he's a South African [43:51] psychiatrist and neuroscientist [43:53] who's a kind of protege of Damasios uh [43:57] suggesting that actually consciousness [43:58] doesn't begin with thought in the cortex [44:00] but with feeling in the brain stem or [44:03] feelings registered in the brain stem [44:05] and the reason we have consciousness [44:06] according to this theory is um because [44:10] there are these homeostatic set points [44:13] and and that the well back up a little [44:15] the brain exists to keep the body alive. [44:17] We forget that we often think the body [44:19] you because we love the brain. You know, [44:21] we're cerebrocentric in so many ways and [44:24] the body has to communicate with the the [44:26] brain and it does it through feelings [44:29] like hunger and warmth or cold and itch [44:32] and and all these kind of what they call [44:34] homeostatic feelings that register in [44:38] the upper brain stem and the cortex only [44:41] gets involved afterward. So you register [44:43] this sensation of hunger and then the [44:46] cortex helps you visualize a meal or [44:49] where you might get food or how you [44:50] might get or how to book a table in a [44:52] restaurant whatever it is that changes [44:54] things in in many ways. If indeed this [44:57] is true and feelings [45:01] have to be felt, right? I mean, a [45:04] feeling implies consciousness. It [45:07] doesn't solve the hard problem or [45:08] anything. I think feelings have a [45:10] different status than thoughts do. I [45:12] think they're sematic. I think that [45:14] they're reinforced by just having a [45:16] body. And if that's true, then first of [45:20] all, lots more animals are conscious, [45:22] right? I mean, everybody's got a brain [45:24] stem. Not everybody, but a whole lot of [45:26] species have brain stems, whereas cortex [45:29] is kind of more exclusive club [45:31] >> and um uh I found that a very uh [45:35] persuasive way to think about [45:37] consciousness and that it starts with uh [45:40] feelings in the body and a lot of what [45:42] the brain is doing is interpreting those [45:44] feelings because they're inco. They're [45:46] just signals, right? William James wrote [45:48] about this. He said, you know, first [45:50] there's the the spike in heart rate and [45:53] then there's and then the brain says [45:55] fear [45:56] >> and so there's this communication going [45:58] and and the cortex might get involved in [46:00] that process. But pain, for example, is [46:02] a conscious phenomenon that doesn't [46:05] require a cortex. Their evidence for [46:07] this is people who have no cortex, [46:10] right? U some children are born without [46:13] one. They've decorticated animals and [46:16] they find they still have even though [46:18] they can't report emotion they have [46:20] evidence of, you know, based on [46:22] expressions and behaviors that they're [46:24] that they're having conscious [46:26] experience. So for me that changed the [46:28] whole way of thinking about it. You [46:30] know, this remains to be proven in [46:32] various ways and it doesn't solve this [46:34] issue of okay, well, how does a feeling [46:36] come to be felt and who's feeling it? [46:38] What's the is there a self that's [46:39] feeling it? And I find Damasio not [46:43] satisfying on that question. He he'll he [46:45] he'll say well um and in his new book he [46:48] says this that feelings are [46:50] spontaneously conscious and that's [46:53] that's an an it's not really a [46:55] satisfactory answer. [46:56] >> It's hard to wrap my head around that [46:58] answer. [46:58] >> Spontaneous is doing a lot of work [46:59] there. [47:00] >> Yeah. Yeah. No discredit to him. He's [47:03] done amazing work. Yeah. No, no, I'm not [47:05] saying you are, but just I think [47:06] >> he's directed the whole field to the [47:08] importance of feelings and and that's [47:10] produced really important work and and [47:12] emotion science and and things like [47:14] that. Yeah. You know, he's a real [47:15] pioneer. [47:16] >> I'd like to take a quick break and [47:18] acknowledge our sponsor, AG1. AG1 just [47:21] launched their newest formulation called [47:23] AG1 Pro. And right now, you can get an [47:25] extra 20% off your first subscription. 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I [48:10] continued to take it and back it here on [48:12] the podcast because it is an excellent [48:14] formula and it's now even better with [48:16] the AG1 Pro formula. For a limited time, [48:19] you can get an extra 20% off your first [48:21] subscription to AG1 Pro by going to [48:23] drinkag1.com/huberman [48:25] and using the code backtoine. So that's [48:28] with the numeral 2 back numeral 2 [48:30] routine. Just go to [48:31] drinkag1.com/huberman. [48:34] I feel like the one of the challenges of [48:37] being human is that people experience [48:40] the world differently enough. It seems [48:43] uh right at the level of emotions. Let's [48:45] just use that as an example. Some people [48:48] I've actually seen this in comments on [48:50] Instagram, so it has to be true, right? [48:52] Um, no, but somebody once said in in a [48:54] comments and it really stuck with me, [48:55] you know, that they think in feels. And [48:57] I thought, this sounds like a bunch of [48:59] woo stuff. But I thought maybe some [49:01] people really do experience things more [49:04] sematically. Okay, check that box. I [49:06] totally accept that. [49:08] >> And maybe the language labels of emotion [49:11] for one person are more crude than for [49:13] another. Lisa Feldman Barrett verified [49:15] that in cultures where there are many [49:17] many different [49:18] >> words for types of sadness. I think that [49:20] she told me that the that in Japan [49:22] there's a specific word for the type of [49:24] sadness that you experience when you got [49:26] a bad haircut. [49:28] >> I love it. [49:28] >> Amazing. Which also helps people avoid [49:32] global statements like I'm feeling [49:34] depressed when in fact they're feeling [49:35] low. And when they say they're depressed [49:38] in certain cultures it really means they [49:40] are depressed. So nuance is is very [49:42] important but that's coming top down [49:44] through language [49:44] >> and that's how culture interacts with [49:46] biology right I mean you know there [49:48] different ways to interpret the same [49:49] sensations. I think we learn this with [49:52] uh you know when you have kids when [49:54] they're when they melt down [49:57] they don't know if they're hungry or [49:58] tired and the parent has to teach them [50:01] you know you you need to eat. [50:04] Yeah. And we see this with kids. They're [50:06] getting the signals, but they don't have [50:08] the mental equipment, the cortical [50:10] equipment to interpret what's going on. [50:13] >> And so then the question is, are the [50:14] signals from the body crude or refined? [50:17] I'm I'm not denying their importance. [50:19] They're critically important. But we [50:21] can't really look to the nerve networks [50:23] and say, okay, the brain is [50:24] sophisticated and the and the neural [50:26] intervation to and from the body is um [50:30] not sophisticated. I mean, it's as [50:32] precise and as the other. So the problem [50:36] seems to be that we don't have language [50:38] for it. So like if I'm feeling [50:41] wholeheartedly [50:43] full of joy, that's an easy one. If I'm [50:46] feeling happy, I mean I can I can change [50:48] my language, my expression, etc. But [50:51] where I would I think neuroscience [50:53] really needs some help and I think [50:55] you're helping the the conversation [50:56] which will inform experiments is how is [50:59] it that the body is communicating with [51:01] the brain in ways that get us away from [51:04] language labels because language labels [51:06] are we created those. [51:08] >> Yeah. [51:08] >> Right. This is very important. I think [51:11] like we made that up. Grunts um you know [51:14] uh exhales around putrid smells and [51:16] inhales around pleasant smells. That's [51:18] that's the those are the core components [51:20] of of language. I mean words are just [51:22] shaped exhales after all, right? Which [51:24] is amazing. Uh by the way, I didn't come [51:26] up with that statement. Uh Eddie Chang, [51:28] chair of neurosurgery at UCSF, [51:30] >> who studies speech and language is my [51:32] childhood friend. He said, you know, he [51:34] said it like like Eddie, you know, he's [51:35] very calm, you know, he's a [51:37] neurosurgeon. He said, you know, all [51:39] speech is just shaped exhales. And I was [51:42] like, oh my goodness, amazing. When you [51:44] just think it's so wild, but then we [51:46] come up with many shaped [51:48] >> what we what we've done with it. [51:49] >> I know. It's incredible. It's [51:50] incredible. And yet we don't know the [51:53] language of the body. [51:56] >> Movement. Yes. But so this is where I [51:58] feel like the consciousness problem is [52:00] perhaps a little stuck. [52:01] >> Yeah, I think you're right. [52:03] >> Like and pain is one example. Pleasure [52:05] is another. But at the extremes it's [52:06] easy. But in day-to-day [52:09] experience outside of those extremes, [52:11] it's it's very hard to like what's going [52:14] on right now. I don't know. I mean, my [52:16] body isn't in pain, but it's I'm not in [52:19] rapture either. [52:20] >> But your you know, your vag nerve, which [52:22] connects the visceral organs to your to [52:24] your brain, is um sending this stream of [52:27] information. I think 80% of the traffic [52:30] is going from body to brain, not the [52:32] other way around. [52:33] >> Point the neuroscientist. I teach neuro [52:34] anatomy. You're you're right. It's 80. [52:36] So incredible. Yeah, the descending [52:38] projection is about 15 20. Nobody knows [52:40] for sure. So you're bang on. So and most [52:42] people when they talk about the [52:43] neuroscience, they get some things [52:44] right. You're bang on. So I just want to [52:46] be clear to you like you're exact on [52:48] every neuroscience point you've made. [52:49] You're exactly right. [52:50] >> Thank you. That means a lot coming from [52:52] you. Um so what do those signals look [52:55] like? I mean how raw are they? I mean um [52:59] and uh you know [53:03] stress hormones released you know [53:05] through inflammation you know change [53:07] mood get get to the brain right um I [53:10] forget which ones they are and then [53:13] suddenly make us feel threatened the [53:16] path I think it's really complicated I [53:18] you know I think there's some very [53:19] precise information reaching the brain [53:22] but I also think [53:24] >> it needs a brain to interpret it [53:26] >> c can we talk about the time scale of [53:28] all this because so it's pretty [53:30] straightforward to think about us them [53:33] um [53:35] body versus mind and I'm wondering [53:38] whether the body is communicating with [53:40] the brain at a time scale that we that [53:44] doesn't match to language for instance [53:46] maybe how I feel right now and how you [53:48] feel right now actually reflects the [53:50] integration of everything that happened [53:53] over the last 10 hours for you and So [53:57] how how your brain is operating right [53:59] now reflects that. Like when we when I [54:01] think of brain um body communication, I [54:05] immediately want to default to like the [54:06] now. What's my body feeling now? How [54:08] does it impact my brain? But maybe the [54:10] signals [54:11] >> are of long time scales. Maybe they [54:14] integrate across my spleen, my stomach, [54:16] and my heart [54:18] >> and then my, you know, my liver and my [54:20] pancreas are sending another message. [54:22] Like we don't know any of this. [54:23] >> No, I know. And I it excites me as you [54:26] you can probably tell because [54:28] I feel like there in lie the answers to [54:31] like being able to parse this experience [54:33] of life consciousness thing. [54:35] >> I'm really struck by the fact that you [54:37] know we we we locate our seed of feeling [54:40] and emotion in our heads most of us most [54:42] of the time. But if you go back in [54:44] history, they talked as much about the [54:47] spleen and they the liver and the heart [54:50] and that emotions they they understood [54:53] something about emotions was coming from [54:54] the body. My favorite example is uh an [54:58] experiment was was done on moral [55:00] judgment and disgust moral disgust. They [55:03] had two groups of people. One they gave [55:06] they each were given a pill, one got a [55:08] placebo, one got ginger, powdered [55:10] ginger. They then uh exposed people to [55:16] um really morally repellent scenarios in [55:20] writing about incest and and um uh just [55:24] really disgusting um uh scenarios, [55:27] eating one's dog, things like that. [55:30] >> And um the people who had taken the [55:33] ginger were less judgmental [55:37] because their stomachs were calmed. [55:39] Ginger calms the stomach. And so the [55:43] emotion of moral disgust is somehow we [55:46] are passing it through. We're doing a [55:48] gut check on it. We're passing it [55:49] through our digestive organs somehow. [55:53] And that you can manipulate with [55:56] something as simple as ginger, people's [55:59] moral judgment. So that that says to me [56:02] this whole system is a lot more [56:04] integrated than I think we even realize. [56:06] And that the more I learn about this, [56:09] the the whole idea of separating mind [56:12] and body, you know, brain and body is is [56:15] taking us down the wrong way. That that [56:18] these things are inextricably bound up [56:20] in ways that are just too complex for us [56:22] to get. I mean, that's an obvious, you [56:24] know, that's a pretty obvious case [56:25] because disgust is both a moral and a [56:29] physical um sensation or feeling, but I [56:33] bet it applies to other things as well. [56:35] It's a disgusting but uh yeah, pun [56:37] intended but um elegant example of how [56:40] this can work. [56:41] >> Well, it's kind of brilliant as you know [56:43] someone thinking up an experiment. I was [56:45] like, "Oh, what a good idea." [56:46] >> Yeah, good experiment. I like [56:48] experiments that bridge this kind of [56:50] higher order like like moral disgust, [56:52] you know, is a cortical thing we assume. [56:54] Although [56:55] >> it clearly involves um you know, other [56:58] circuitries. It makes sense. Ginger [57:00] calms calms the gut. too. Um, and I know [57:03] if I have some minor pain like a like a [57:05] back strain or something, I'm much less [57:07] patient. [57:07] >> Yeah. [57:08] >> I, um, I look at the world differently. [57:10] Um, and I think we all become more, um, [57:14] self-centric [57:15] >> when we're in pain, when we feel good. [57:17] It's easier to allocate resources to [57:20] what's out there. Maybe that takes us a [57:22] little bit to psychedelics um, and [57:24] collective consciousness. You know, one [57:26] of the things that I'm um excited by uh [57:29] is that I'm old enough now to have heard [57:32] about the counterculture of the 60s, [57:35] >> grown up in its wake, um experienced [57:37] this health, wellness, public education [57:40] thing that I do, touched into science [57:42] and and living in California, you know, [57:45] I've spent some a little bit of time at [57:47] read read some books and getting to know [57:49] folks across these generations and a lot [57:52] of themes repeat themselves. And one of [57:55] the themes that I think we need to [57:56] overcome is the lack of adequate [57:58] language or dismissing language that can [58:01] act as a barrier rather than a conduit [58:04] for for understanding. So for instance, [58:06] the words collective consciousness [58:09] years ago were about like one love. [58:11] >> Yeah. [58:11] >> Right. And that didn't work um in terms [58:14] of convincing people to live in peace [58:16] with all other humans and animals [58:18] clearly. Sadly. So that doesn't mean [58:21] collective consciousness isn't worth [58:23] thinking about. But just like we say, [58:25] you know, breath work is too broad a [58:27] term and um any I don't like anything [58:30] that's so that lumps so much that you [58:33] lose critical um critical information. [58:37] So if I say collective consciousness, I [58:39] want to be clear. I'm not talking about [58:41] one love. Although that's a great goal. [58:43] Wicked peace on earth would be nice. I [58:45] don't I don't know that I'm going to see [58:46] it in my lifetime. I'm [58:48] >> getting frustrated. Probably not, but [58:50] I'll hold out hope. [58:51] >> We're going the wrong way. [58:53] >> It's it's it's tough. It's it's it's [58:55] tough. I I have to say it's um uh too [58:58] many repeating themes of the sort that I [59:01] wouldn't like to see um are are visible. [59:04] But [59:04] >> so, how do you define collective [59:06] consciousness? [59:06] >> Well, I've heard the term, [59:08] >> right? And when I think about it, I've [59:09] not been to Burning Man, but I think [59:11] about people who are trying to set aside [59:14] miism. [59:16] >> Yeah. [59:17] in day-to-day interactions so that [59:19] everybody wins. It's this notion of [59:21] everybody wins, [59:22] >> right? [59:22] >> And then I kind of try and pressure test [59:25] that a little bit and say, is there a [59:28] version of collective consciousness [59:30] everybody wins that's based on truth [59:32] >> that's not based on lies? I think that's [59:34] where it failed because people are [59:37] people and there are bad humans, there [59:40] are good humans, but it's a continuum [59:43] and people are fundamentally [59:46] self-interested until they're okay and [59:47] then they can take care of others. I [59:49] think that's true of essentially all [59:50] humans. [59:51] >> How can we get to a collective [59:53] consciousness embracing the idea that [59:55] I'm me, you're you, we could work [59:57] together, but we have to also [59:58] acknowledge the truth that you have [60:00] self-interest and I have self-interest. [60:02] And that's where I feel like if there's [60:03] if there's hope, it's about acknowledge. [60:05] Like we can't ourselves into [60:07] thinking one love. We can't all take LSD [60:09] and expect to get there. In fact, I [60:10] think that would make things worse. [60:12] Maybe, maybe better. Who knows? But it's [60:14] not going to solve the problem. So, I'm [60:16] throwing out a huge can of worms here, [60:18] but how do you think about this [60:20] collective consciousness thing? How [60:22] perhaps should it be redefined? Is it [60:24] about living in peace and harmony as a [60:28] species with other species? Is that what [60:29] it's really about? Um because I think [60:31] anyone that takes psychedelics or who [60:33] has a positive hope for humanity [60:36] or both wants that. [60:38] >> Yeah. So that's been the dream of [60:42] psychedelics for a long time. Um that [60:45] they would diminish the ego [60:49] um and uh contribute to sort of [60:52] pro-social feeling, a a sense of [60:54] connection. um we're more alike than [60:56] we're different. [60:59] You know, it doesn't always work. Um we [61:03] have cases of ego dissolution and we [61:06] have cases of ego inflation [61:07] >> with with psychedelics. [61:08] >> With psychedelics, some people [61:10] >> Can you talk more about that? Yeah. [61:11] >> Yeah. So, [61:13] a very common uh phenomenon on on [61:16] highdose psychedelics is the sense of [61:18] losing a sense of self. Um I mentioned [61:20] earlier that you can be conscious [61:22] without a sense of self. And I've had [61:24] that experience. I describe it in in two [61:27] of my books um of highdose psilocybin. [61:32] I suddenly saw myself [61:35] um explode into this cloud of blue [61:37] post-it notes that then fluttered to the [61:39] ground and coalesed in this pool of blue [61:42] paint. Beautiful. It was. And it was [61:45] like that sounds scary. But in fact, it [61:48] was like yes, I'm blue paint. That's [61:51] what I am. And I was observing this [61:54] though from this new perspective that [61:56] wasn't me. It was completely objective, [61:58] total equinimity. [62:00] And when that happens and the ego is [62:05] laid aside, there's no walls. The ego is [62:08] a defensive structure. Um the self is a [62:10] defense, right? It's it's as we were [62:12] talking about us and them or me and me [62:14] and them. You merge with something [62:17] larger um because there's nothing to [62:20] stand in the way. And some people merge [62:22] with the divinity or the universe or or [62:25] love or other people. In my case, it was [62:27] a piece of music that the guide was [62:29] playing this Bach uh cello unaccompanied [62:33] cello suite. And I became this piece of [62:35] music and it was the most beautiful [62:37] experience of music I'd ever had. There [62:39] was no subject object distinction. I was [62:42] it. I wasn't listening to it. I was it. [62:45] This is something that pushes you toward [62:47] getting over ego consciousness which is [62:49] at the root of a lot of the you know [62:51] discord that we feel in the world. [62:54] Obviously it's not a permanent state [62:55] anyone can be in. But the the legacy of [62:59] that experience is I am less I feel I [63:04] have more perspective on my ego. I know [63:06] when he's up to his old tricks, you [63:09] know, when he's being too critical or [63:11] aggressive or too self-interested, and I [63:13] say, "Oh, that's my ego." And that's [63:15] just one voice, and there are other [63:17] voices I can listen to. And so, I think [63:19] there's a value in having an experience [63:21] of ego dissolution. Now, I hasten to say [63:24] there are other ways to get there. Um, [63:26] uh, meditators get there, too. Um, it's [63:29] more work, but you can get there through [63:30] meditation and transcend your sense of [63:32] ego. uh experiences of awe which you can [63:36] get from many different ways diminish [63:38] your sense of ego in a way that I think [63:40] is very pro-social. Um Derk Kelner who's [63:43] a colleague of mine at at Berkeley does [63:45] did this really he studies all he wrote [63:47] a wonderful book on awe he did this cool [63:49] experiment where he asked people to draw [63:52] a picture of themselves just a stick [63:54] figure on a piece of graph paper and [63:56] then he gave them an experience of awe. [63:58] He took them river rafting or something [64:00] like that and then he had them do it [64:01] again and they would they would draw a [64:03] picture of themselves at like a third of [64:05] the size um because their sense of self [64:08] had been diminished in a very positive [64:10] way. It felt very very good. We have [64:12] such complicated paradoxical feelings [64:14] about the ego and the self. We celebrate [64:17] it in our society. We want our kids to [64:20] have self um confidence and self [64:23] asssurance and um and we worship self. [64:26] But we also find that some of our [64:29] happiest experiences are when we escape [64:32] self, right? I mean it happens in sex. [64:35] It happens experiences of awe, religious [64:38] experience. It happens to people in [64:40] church and synagogue all the time. So [64:42] where are we on this? And that's why I [64:44] don't think it's so simple to say that [64:46] there's a collective consciousness. I [64:48] think we toggle back and forth of [64:50] getting trapped in self and and and of [64:52] course self is really important having a [64:54] sense of self. You wouldn't spend six [64:56] years writing a book if you didn't know [64:59] you were going to be the same person at [65:00] the end of the six years and it would [65:02] benefit you to have finished it. So we [65:04] need that sense of self to get things [65:06] done but it's also a trap and it [65:08] distances us from people and makes us [65:10] selfish and and uh so I I just don't [65:12] think it's simple. There's another idea [65:14] of collective consciousness of course [65:15] that consciousness is a field exists [65:17] outside us and we're we all take part in [65:20] it. I came out of this experience of [65:24] studying consciousness and looking at [65:26] all the theories of consciousness. I [65:28] don't want to give it away but we have [65:30] no idea about consciousness [65:32] really how it's how how brain matter [65:34] generates consciousness if indeed that's [65:36] how it happens. And there are people who [65:39] doubt that's how it happens. It could be [65:41] that the brain channels consciousness, [65:43] right? I mean, that if you conceive of [65:46] consciousness as like electromagnetic [65:48] waves, [65:49] >> um, brains are like radio receivers or [65:51] TV receivers. You wouldn't you wouldn't [65:53] look in the TV set for the woman who [65:56] gave you the weather report. You know, [65:58] she's not there. She's somewhere else. [66:00] >> So, I don't know that that's true. But [66:04] coming out of this experience of [66:06] studying this, I don't dismiss an idea [66:09] like that. I don't dismiss pansychism [66:11] too. The idea that the particles in this [66:14] table have some ity little bit of [66:16] consciousness that somehow gets combined [66:18] in conscious beings like us. You have to [66:21] keep an open mind because our [66:23] presumption that you know consciousness [66:26] is an emergent property of brain [66:28] complexity that idea is not it doesn't [66:31] have much traction. So, so anyway, so [66:36] maybe there is a field of consciousness [66:37] that we we tune into. How do we prove [66:40] it? You know, I mean, we were talking [66:42] earlier about Kristoff Ko, who's a [66:43] scientist we both greatly admire, and he [66:46] was a a real physicalist, a materialist [66:49] scientist who believed that it was all [66:51] about the brains and uh and he was head [66:53] of Allen Brain Institute for many years. [66:56] He had a experience on Iawaska that he [66:59] shared publicly. I'm not speaking out of [67:01] school where he was absolutely convinced [67:05] and remains convinced that um [67:07] consciousness exists outside of brains. [67:10] That's extraordinary for somebody of his [67:12] experience to have come to that [67:14] conclusion. And he and it's unshakable. [67:16] >> I haven't had that experience. I'm not [67:18] convinced of that the way he is, but um [67:21] but I respect people who hold that idea [67:24] now much more than I once did. I'm going [67:28] to summarize something you said to make [67:30] sure I I got it right, which is that you [67:32] had a psychedelic experience. Many [67:34] people who take psych psychedelics, not [67:36] all, but many have an ego dissolution [67:39] experience. It's um very tangible and [67:43] rich inside of the psychedelic journey. [67:45] There's an export to after the journey, [67:48] but it doesn't fundamentally change your [67:50] relationship to self at every moment in [67:52] your waking life. No, [67:53] >> I think that's important for people to [67:54] hear because I think a lot of people [67:56] think about people who take a lot of [67:57] psychedelics and sort of fundamentally [67:59] change. They can't go back to their [68:01] prior self. So it allows it's a portal [68:02] that you can go back into consciously. [68:05] It's an awareness. Do I have that right? [68:07] Okay. [68:07] >> Yeah, that's exactly right. I um uh I [68:10] just have a slightly different [68:11] understanding of my ego. It's not like [68:12] it's gone away. [68:13] >> It's there when I need it. [68:14] >> And then the other piece about [68:16] consciousness inside versus outside, I [68:18] think maybe it will be helpful for [68:20] people. Certainly it is for me to think [68:21] about um brains and inside outside stuff [68:24] this way pit vipers can sense heat [68:26] emissions we can't honeybees can see UV [68:29] light we can't we experience all of life [68:32] through a pretty narrow set of filters I [68:35] think when people hear the [68:36] electromagnetic energies in the world it [68:38] sounds woo to some but it's anything but [68:40] it's simply just for clarity uh sake [68:44] certain wavelengths of light certain [68:46] sound waves that we can detect [68:47] mechanical touch chemical sensing combin [68:50] bind to our experience. We're [68:51] abstracting [68:53] our visual image of each other sitting [68:55] across this table. There's no [68:56] >> and it's limited by our senses. [68:57] >> That's right. I can only bring in what I [68:59] can bring in. A different animal or even [69:01] person would detect you differently. But [69:03] the the whole idea is that I'm I'm [69:06] putting all that together into an [69:07] abstraction of Michael Pollen sitting [69:09] here doing a podcast with me. So if in [69:12] one model consciousness is an [69:14] abstraction that's created within our [69:16] brains. We combine electromagnetic [69:18] energies whatever other faculties our [69:19] neurons can um contribute to those [69:22] meaning understanding combining with [69:25] with whatever gut whatever and we create [69:28] this consciousness experience. But [69:31] you're saying there's another model [69:33] where there's an energy out in outside [69:37] of us that somehow we're detecting that [69:40] is already a consciousness. And so it's [69:44] we're not we're not abstracting it in [69:46] our minds. It's literally entering [69:49] through presumably our senses. [69:52] >> Maybe there's an additional sense we're [69:53] not even aware of and we're experiencing [69:57] it, but it's literally out there. I [70:00] don't experience you as a bunch of [70:01] photons. I experience you as a human. [70:03] Right? [70:04] >> So I'm either putting it together inside [70:06] or it's put together outside and gets um [70:09] and gets recapitulated. [70:11] >> These are called filter theories of [70:13] consciousness and the implication of [70:15] them. uh Henri Bericson the French [70:17] philosopher was a exponent of this and [70:19] Aldis Huxley um uh believed this and [70:24] talked about it in doors of perception [70:25] that he had h had some access to this [70:28] field and and and for him it was [70:30] psychedelics. It was a masculine [70:32] experience that convinced him of this [70:34] and the idea was that there's more [70:37] consciousness out there than we can [70:39] handle [70:40] >> and that um there is a filter or what [70:44] what Huxley called a reducing valve and [70:47] it basically admits the what he called [70:49] the measly trickle of consciousness we [70:52] need to survive. God, that's brilliant [70:54] because if we took in all the [70:55] >> we would be overwhelmed [70:56] >> all the wavelengths of light for [70:57] instance, we wouldn't be able to see I'd [71:00] be overwhelmed with whatever that would [71:02] look like or feel like. I I can't use [71:05] that. [71:05] >> No, our senses are limiting. Uh they're [71:08] not they're not as expansive as they [71:09] might be. And and your example, the bees [71:11] are right. There's all these spectrums [71:13] of light we can't see. It's also worth [71:15] remembering that it's it was only like [71:17] what 120 or 150 years ago that we [71:20] learned there was an electromagnetic [71:22] field that you know that you could [71:24] actually use to convey information and [71:26] it's invisible. I mean that's pretty [71:27] heady stuff right there. So their [71:30] thinking is well there might be another [71:32] field and didn't we just learn about [71:34] this other um body system? There's lymph [71:37] and blood and there's a third one. What [71:39] is it called? [71:40] >> There's like the sensitium thing. Yes, [71:42] >> it's like a thin sheet that runs through [71:44] the body that acupuncturists seem to [71:45] have known about for a very long time. [71:47] Um, acupuncture is getting tremendous [71:49] validation from the rigorous science [71:51] now. [71:52] >> Yeah, the acupuncturists are all like, [71:54] "Yeah, we were telling you about this." [71:55] >> Yeah, certain sites can increase or [71:57] decrease inflammation. Uh, Chufuma's lab [72:00] at Harvard Med is doing beautiful work [72:01] on this. [72:02] >> It's fascinating. So, so we shouldn't [72:04] limit ourselves. I mean it the idea [72:06] we've discovered all there is to [72:07] discover in terms of fields and [72:09] consciousness it may look very [72:11] different. So I was talking to Allison [72:13] Gobnik who's another colleague in [72:15] psychology at Berkeley and you know she [72:18] was saying well you know [72:20] the hard problem we may decide that [72:22] consciousness is not one thing and maybe [72:25] that's our mistake and we did that with [72:27] the vital exp that was going to the one [72:31] thing that was going to explain life and [72:32] flowist I forget what that was going to [72:35] explain but energy or fire or something [72:37] like that. So we tend when we have a [72:39] mystery we tend to make it singular and [72:44] sometimes the answer is breaking it up [72:47] into parts [72:48] >> and so maybe there's ego self and that's [72:53] something and then maybe there's emotion [72:56] and maybe self-reflection is something [72:59] else entirely. I mean, I've thought [73:00] about this with regard to AI. As we get [73:04] these AIs, these chat bots that seem [73:07] more and more uh to have a sense of [73:09] self, say, you know, we call them agents [73:12] because they act on their own interest. [73:15] And so maybe it's possible to have an [73:18] ego without being conscious because I [73:20] don't think they're conscious. I don't [73:21] know. We may be taking apart this idea [73:24] at some point and maybe that'll help us [73:26] to understand it. [73:28] I'd like to take a quick break and [73:29] acknowledge our sponsor, Function. [73:32] Function provides over 160 advanced lab [73:35] tests to give you a clear snapshot of [73:36] your bodily health. This snapshot gives [73:39] you insights into your heart health, [73:40] your hormone health, autoimmune [73:42] function, nutrient levels, and much [73:44] more. They've also recently added access [73:46] to advanced MRI and CT scans. 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And [74:25] while I've been doing blood work for [74:27] years, it used to be timeconuming, [74:29] complicated, and expensive. In fact, I [74:31] used to spend thousands of dollars per [74:33] year trying to get this kind of data. [74:35] And the data, frankly, were not all that [74:37] good. But now with Function, it's [74:39] extremely easy and affordable. A [74:41] function membership is only a dollar a [74:42] day, $365 a year. And if you think about [74:45] the information it provides and the [74:47] health challenges it helps you avoid and [74:49] the proactive things that it can do for [74:51] you to enhance your health, I truly look [74:53] at it as a savings. To learn more, visit [74:56] functionhealth.com/huberman [74:58] and use the code hubberman for a $50 [75:00] credit towards your membership. Again, [75:02] that's functionhealth.com/huberman. [75:06] >> It's a super intriguing idea. I I [75:08] sometimes wonder if AI will tell us what [75:11] consciousness is in a way that we aren't [75:13] able to solve. And some people might [75:16] say, well, that's just very, you know, [75:17] pro AI. But I mean, humans have been [75:20] putting their heads together around [75:22] these sets of problems for a long while. [75:24] I do think we're at a new vista now. [75:25] >> No, we're stuck. We're absolutely stuck. [75:27] And the effort to make a conscious AI, [75:29] which is underway. I mean there are [75:31] there are individuals and some companies [75:33] who are trying to make it conscious not [75:35] just intelligent and those are not the [75:37] same things. If they fail or succeed [75:40] they're going to teach us important [75:41] things about consciousness. For example, [75:43] if it truly is about feelings and that's [75:46] where consciousness originates feelings [75:49] depend on having a body, a vulnerable [75:51] body and possibly on our mortality. [75:55] Are computers going to have feelings? I [75:58] don't think so. And I think a computer [76:00] simulation of a feeling is very [76:02] different than a simulation of a thought [76:03] which is as good as a real thought. You [76:05] know, it can play chess or go or [76:07] whatever. [76:08] >> So if they succeed in making [76:12] conscious AI, it'll it'll discount the [76:15] feeling idea. I don't think they can. I, [76:18] you know, as long as we're dealing with [76:19] silicon computers, the idea that you [76:22] could have a conscious uh computer is [76:25] based on a faulty metaphor of the brain [76:28] as a computer. And I mean, you know, [76:30] enough neuroscience to to to see the [76:34] yes, it does some computations, but take [76:37] the distinction between hardware and [76:39] software that doesn't really exist in [76:41] brains. Well, that's a key thing about [76:42] computers. [76:44] >> And neurons are not just on or off. [76:46] They're not simply transistors. They're [76:47] affected by chemicals and oscillations. [76:51] There's a wonderful quote from Norbert [76:53] Weiner who said that the um the price of [76:55] metaphor is eternal vigilance. [76:58] And I think this metaphor of the brain [76:59] is computer is is we're not being [77:02] vigilant about that metaphor at all. I [77:04] don't think I think it falls apart if [77:05] you push on it. I also think computers [77:07] are clearly not brains even in the most [77:10] modern iterations of AI for the simple [77:13] reason at least one simple reason which [77:16] is our brains create memories in one or [77:19] two structures but then they export them [77:21] to a bunch of other areas and computers [77:24] have a memory center distributed memory [77:27] is you know doesn't exist in most [77:30] computers now [77:31] >> but also that memory makes a physical [77:33] change in the brain right I mean you're [77:35] And your brain's different than mine cuz [77:36] it was pruned very differently because [77:38] of life experiences. [77:40] So if you had a computer where the [77:42] hardware was being constantly changed, [77:43] it would be useless. [77:45] >> Yeah. There are these um issues in [77:47] neuroscience that never really get [77:49] resolved. One of the things that [77:51] perplexing to me, maybe you have some [77:52] insight on this, is there were two labs, [77:54] Suma Tonagawa's lab at MIT, he's got a [77:56] Nobel and Mark Mayfford's lab at [77:58] Scripps. [77:58] essentially ran the same experiment [78:01] where they used an animal model where [78:03] you could um the animals would learn [78:05] something and then you could capture [78:07] which neurons were activated during the [78:09] learning and were critical for the [78:10] expression of that behavior and you'd [78:12] say neuron A B C D they fired in a [78:14] certain order and it was those neurons [78:16] you could and then you could go back and [78:17] actually replay those neurons and you [78:19] found that if you played them in the [78:20] exact same sequence you got the same [78:22] behavior. [78:23] >> Here's the problem. you could play those [78:25] neurons backwards or all at once and get [78:27] the exact same behavior. So this throws [78:30] a serious wrench into our understanding [78:31] of the brain. The notion that you need [78:33] things firing in a particular sequence [78:35] was completely crapped on by those set [78:37] of experiments. I mentioned the Nobel [78:39] even though Susumu got it for [78:40] immunology. He's a very smart guy. [78:42] Mark's a very smart guy. So these papers [78:44] have stood the test of time. But it [78:46] would be like if I said, "Oh, you know, [78:47] this is the the the keys that you play [78:49] in a song and it sounds like the song or [78:51] then I bang on all of them and you still [78:53] get the song." [78:54] >> So our whole notion of the temporal [78:57] ordering of firing of neurons being [78:59] important for for memories is like it's [79:02] complete horseshit. It also turns out [79:04] that every one of those neurons is [79:05] participating in a bunch of other [79:07] memories and so some of them are that's [79:09] great because that's great allocation of [79:11] of resources and redundancy but we can't [79:13] we we just I don't want to say we don't [79:15] understand the brain there so much [79:16] beautiful work has been done over the [79:18] last you know 50 hundred years [79:19] incredible work but there is this [79:22] problem like we don't really understand [79:24] how the brain is encoding experiences [79:26] even at that level and that's a problem [79:29] >> yeah it's a huge problem well I don't [79:32] know a lot about this but it sounds to [79:34] me like a quantum effect that it's [79:36] happening simultaneously. [79:37] >> Tell me more about that. [79:40] >> This is not my area of expertise. So [79:41] anything you say will be new. [79:42] >> Me neither. Okay. This is total amateur. [79:44] I heard a talk by Mo Kaku the other day [79:47] and uh he was talking about quantum [79:49] computers and that they will um not work [79:54] in a linear way one way after another [79:56] after another. When they're solving a [79:57] problem they'll do it all at once. Sim [80:00] it's simultaneity. will be a hallmark of [80:03] that. There's a whole school of thought [80:05] that quantum physics may help explain [80:08] consciousness. I I honestly don't [80:11] understand it, but quantum mechanics [80:13] have given us some very uh bizarre [80:16] explanations of things such as [80:17] entanglement. Um you know that two [80:20] particles separated by light years can [80:23] nevertheless affect one another. And so [80:26] non-locality is and realism, they're [80:29] gone. And in biology, we just go along [80:32] as if they're still here because we [80:34] can't deal with it. Quantum effects have [80:37] been discounted in brains because they [80:40] seem to we we think they only work at [80:43] these tiny scales, but in fact they work [80:45] at all scales. We also have questions [80:47] about whether they work with a warm wet [80:50] in a warm wet environment like a brain. [80:53] You know, quantum computers have to be [80:55] chilled to like nearly abs absolute [80:57] zero. But I think that that is the next [81:03] in the next 50 years, I think we'll be [81:05] trying to figure out if what we know [81:08] about quantum reality may have something [81:12] to do with creating consciousness. [81:14] >> That's as far as I can go. You know [81:16] everything I know about it now. [81:17] >> Amazing. I I mean I think um the brain [81:20] is a receiver. [81:21] >> I've heard that before. Today it really [81:22] makes sense to me now that um based on [81:25] how you described it. Can I ask about [81:27] you? Uh, and can I get some advice from [81:29] you? And can our listeners perhaps get [81:31] some advice from you? Uh, you've written [81:33] 10 books and I'm sensing a thread [81:36] through all of them about the natural [81:37] world, about us, how we how those relate [81:40] >> and coming to some better understanding [81:42] of self and relating to the world in a [81:45] more [81:46] >> benevolent way. That's that's my export, [81:48] but I'm I know there's much more to you. [81:50] But it dawned on me as we were sitting [81:52] down, I I think the world knows very [81:55] little about you. Maybe that's [81:56] intentional, but I just want to know [81:57] when you were younger, were you were you [82:00] sort of intrigued by or drawn to flora [82:03] and fauna? Were you sort of like [82:05] thinking about the humans in a certain [82:08] way? It it it just strikes me that you [82:10] have a very um it's going to sound uh [82:12] like a scientist said it, but a very [82:14] interdigitated way of thinking about us [82:16] them. like you understand the difference [82:18] between a human and a plant and a and an [82:21] animal, which is great, but you also [82:25] find these incredible points of [82:27] connectivity [82:28] that are really geared towards [82:30] self-standing and therefore helping the [82:34] relationship. So, can you trace that [82:36] back to like something in particular or [82:40] is that just your or is this just [82:42] downloaded into you? No, I so I started [82:45] gardening at a very young age uh [82:47] accidentally. I had an experience when I [82:50] was four or five. I grew up on Long [82:52] Island, suburban Long Island, and I [82:55] loved watermelon. And like everybody [82:58] thinking about the pits, you know, the [83:00] seeds when you swallow them or don't [83:02] swallow them. And and my mother would [83:03] always encourage me to spit them out. [83:06] And I did that. And I I took some [83:08] watermelon seeds and I just covered it [83:09] with dirt. I was like really young and [83:11] then forgot about it. And that must have [83:14] been May or June. And I came back in [83:16] September and lo and behold there was a [83:19] watermelon. It was like the size of a [83:21] football but to me it was huge. I was [83:24] just so blown away by this and it was it [83:27] was just a you know formative moment. [83:30] And I was so excited. I picked I picked [83:34] it and I was running and we had a [83:37] concrete patio behind our house and had [83:40] to show my mom this this uh thing that [83:43] I'd grown. I hadn't really done anything [83:46] and I tripped and fell and the [83:48] watermelon just completely splattered um [83:51] all over the patio. But I went on I [83:53] planted a garden when I was like eight [83:55] next to the house. I called it a farm. [83:58] Whenever I could grow three or four [84:00] strawberries, I'd put them in a Dixie [84:01] cup and sell them to my mom. So, it was [84:04] a going concern. So, gardening was a [84:06] really big part of it. And and you know, [84:09] that puts you in relation to nature, an [84:11] active relationship to nature. Most of [84:13] us have a very kind of observer um type [84:17] relationship. We admire it from a [84:19] distance on vacation, you know. Um, but [84:22] gardening thrusts you right in the [84:24] middle of it and you have to make [84:26] decisions. Uh, and [84:29] that your plants have interests. You [84:31] know, you're not the only interested [84:33] creature here. Your plants have [84:34] interests and to the extent you can [84:37] satisfy their interest, they're going to [84:38] give you what you're what you what you [84:40] want. So that, you know, eventually [84:43] years later, I wrote my first book was [84:46] about that. And um I realized what was [84:48] going on in the garden is no different [84:51] than what goes on on the farm. So it was [84:53] very easy to go from uh I started [84:55] writing these essays about what was [84:57] going on in my garden and using that as [84:59] a laboratory. Americans generally go to [85:01] the wilderness to think about nature or [85:03] the desert or the forest. And I actually [85:06] think the garden at this point is a a [85:08] more valuable laboratory because we've [85:11] saved all the land we're going to save. [85:13] You know, I think 8% of the American uh [85:16] landscape has been we've locked it up, [85:18] thrown away the key, which is great. [85:20] Although actually Trump's trying to open [85:22] the lock again, [85:22] >> trying to sell some of it. [85:23] >> Yeah. in Utah. [85:24] >> I will say just as a quick note if that [85:27] like this angers me so much. My friends [85:30] who are hunters [85:32] >> and like real outdoors people um were [85:36] very excited about the protection of [85:38] these lands and now have they're [85:40] essentially pissed at all forms of [85:42] government. Let's just put it that way. [85:45] Um because they were promised something [85:47] and it was taken away. And I the they're [85:49] now truly outside the box of any [85:51] political party. They will die before [85:53] they let go of this land. [85:55] >> Yeah. [85:55] >> And but it is really scary. It is truly [85:58] scary. Um some of our fishermen also and [86:01] you know [86:02] >> and so on and um we still need to to [86:05] extol the virtues of wilderness. It's [86:07] without question. And hunters have been [86:08] some of the great conservationists in [86:10] American history. I mean you know Teddy [86:12] Roosevelt you know really started the [86:14] modern conservation movement because he [86:15] was a hunter. But we need to know how to [86:18] behave in nature at this point right? I [86:21] mean in the 94 98% of the or 92% of the [86:25] landscape that um because America we've [86:28] tended to either you know there's either [86:30] virgin nature or raped nature right I [86:33] mean we have this this very strong [86:35] binary and um and once we've decided [86:39] that this is this side goes to [86:42] capitalism and the marketplace you know [86:45] we abuse it and we have abused it so so [86:48] learning how to how to behave in nature [86:50] I think is really important and that's [86:52] that's guided a lot of my work. You're [86:54] right in your take. Consciousness, you [86:56] know, [86:57] is part of that. It's like where do [86:59] where do our minds engage with matter [87:03] and and nature and and biology and and [87:06] and it's amazing we don't know yet. [87:08] >> You also strike me as somebody who you [87:10] think about these very high level [87:11] problems. I don't know when that came [87:12] about. Um but clearly you're observant [87:15] and you and you think a lot. But many [87:17] people who talk about psychedelics, [87:19] write about psychedelics and think about [87:20] collective consciousness and um and are [87:23] friendly with plants and plants like [87:25] them. They're not like feet on the [87:27] ground like so did do you have like [87:31] practical people in your lineage? Were [87:33] you were you taught like cuz gardening [87:34] also is has a practical aspect. You [87:36] can't just wish the plants to grow. You [87:38] can't just dance around them and play [87:39] them sound bowls. I'm not I think listen [87:41] I think sound bowl therapy we'll [87:42] probably discover has some very [87:43] important effects on the nervous system. [87:45] So, I'm not being disparaging of it at [87:47] all, but it's one thing to like these [87:49] things and and feel you have a [87:51] relationship to them. Um, but you've [87:54] made great efforts to try and get many [87:56] people, millions of people to to [87:59] appreciate and lean into these [88:00] relationships in ways that can serve [88:02] them and and the world. So, where does [88:04] that come from? [88:05] >> Well, I don't know exactly. I've been [88:07] kind of surprised that a couple of my [88:10] books have actually changed a public [88:14] conversation around food and then [88:16] >> about dilemma was very present in you [88:18] know when I was going through you know [88:21] college and and around that time I think [88:23] it was a graduate [88:23] >> 2006 [88:24] >> okay so yeah short it was after college [88:27] but that book was everywhere [88:29] >> and the mantra from that book right you [88:33] know food not too much mostly plants [88:35] right [88:36] >> so I never, you know, I didn't set out [88:38] to um start something and and certainly [88:41] there were other important books that [88:42] came out around the same period. Eric [88:43] Schlloer's Fast Food Nation and Marian [88:46] Nestle wrote a book called Food Politics [88:48] that was very influential. [88:49] >> The difference I would say they're great [88:50] and I great admiration for them, but I [88:53] would say that those were about what not [88:55] to do. [88:56] >> Yeah. [88:56] >> Like this is bad, you know, and um and [88:59] like growing up I read the one was it [89:01] was Tom Robbins wrote a book from the [89:03] Baskin Robins family. What was that [89:04] book? I forget the title. something [89:05] about sugar, [89:06] >> but it was about I mean you read it and [89:07] you're just like the atrocities of the [89:09] of the meat industry. So So they're hard [89:11] books to form a relationship to because [89:13] it's like a they're it's a bad rel it's [89:15] a great they're great books but about [89:17] bad relationships. [89:18] >> Good point. [89:18] >> Whereas your book it was about the the [89:21] love of these things and so it was like [89:23] this benevolence. [89:24] >> Well, I've always felt if there's any [89:27] way to put hope in a story, you need to [89:30] put hope in a story because we need [89:32] hope. we it's our it's our air, you [89:35] know. And I remember I wrote a a a piece [89:38] for the New York Times that became a [89:40] chapter in Omnivore's Dilemma about um [89:42] about the meat industry. And I followed [89:44] this one cow through the whole process, [89:46] you know, from insemination to [89:48] slaughter. And it's a pretty dark story [89:50] about how we produce beef in this [89:52] country. And it's a long story. It's [89:53] like 8,000 words. But I made a point to [89:56] like, well, what are the alternatives? [89:58] And I learned about grass-fed, [89:59] grass-finished beef, which at the time [90:01] was a tiny little market. [90:03] >> And um I had a couple paragraphs on [90:06] this. There's another way to do it. [90:07] There's another So I was making the [90:09] point that the the food chain from which [90:11] most of us are eating beef is floating [90:14] on a sea of oil and that um it's fossil [90:17] fuel to grow the corn um that feeds the [90:21] animal. And then you need the [90:22] pharmaceuticals because the corn makes [90:24] the animal sick. And it's just it's just [90:26] such a pathological system and it's so [90:28] dark. Um, but there's another food chain [90:32] that takes sunlight captured by grass [90:36] that feeds this animal. I juxtapose [90:39] these two food chains, an oil-based food [90:41] chain and a sunlight based food chain. [90:43] And [90:45] you know, my editors were like, "Hey, [90:47] this piece is already 8,000 words. [90:49] You've got four paragraphs about [90:50] grass-fed beef, which no one knows [90:52] anything about and doesn't know where to [90:53] get. You know, we got to cut that." And [90:54] I said, "No, we have to leave that. That [90:56] just shows the hope that we can grow our [90:58] food using sunlight, not oil." And I won [91:01] the fight, luckily. And was so [91:04] gratified. A couple weeks after this [91:07] piece came out, this piece made quite a [91:08] bit of noise at the time. I walked into [91:10] a butcher shop on College Avenue in [91:13] Oakland, and I just I was kind of [91:15] curious. I I wonder if they have [91:16] grass-fed beef. And so I asked the [91:18] butcher, "Do you have grass-fed beef?" [91:19] And he goes, "What is going on? you're [91:22] the sixth person this week who asked me [91:24] for grass-fed beef and he got it. [91:26] >> Um, so that satisfies me a lot. I I like [91:30] writing where we can point a direction [91:33] that it might be useful for and that [91:34] that individuals can have some agency [91:36] and not be just victims of these big [91:38] systems. [91:39] >> And I'm an optimistic person finally. [91:42] >> You said finally not not your entire [91:44] life. [91:45] >> No, no, I I think I have been. I I think [91:48] I'm optimistic. I also think that I'm [91:51] the oldest of four kids. [91:54] My father, who's no longer with us, was [91:56] alcoholic. I had a lot of responsibility [91:58] for being a sane person in the family [92:01] dynamic. Uh helping my mother with, you [92:04] know, the household and things cuz my [92:06] dad was kind of checked out. And um uh [92:09] so I think I do I do value practical [92:13] things and and and that's why my [92:15] instinct is always like start with [92:17] materialism and if materialism fails [92:19] then we'll look at other weirder ideas. [92:21] sorry to hear about your father and why [92:24] why you had to step into that role but [92:26] the world's um fortunate that you did [92:29] because when I look at the the the [92:31] important what I would call the [92:32] important movements of the last 50 60 [92:34] years of and I think psychedelics is one [92:36] of them and but when I say that I want [92:38] to be clear I'm talking about [92:39] neuroplasticity to make people feel and [92:43] be better versions of themselves may not [92:45] come from psychedelics or even therapy [92:47] or or the sematics or breath work or [92:50] >> health and fitness all of it, you know, [92:52] I feel like where each of those quote [92:56] unquote movements reached its cliff [92:59] was when the individual or individuals [93:02] that were leading that movement were [93:04] either too emotive [93:06] and not practical enough. They weren't [93:08] thinking about how they could export the [93:09] knowledge in a way that people could [93:10] really make use of it. um that [93:12] acknowledged the variety of truths that [93:14] were out there that people weren't all [93:15] gonna just like [93:16] >> move to San Francisco or Big Su, you [93:18] know, that kind of thing, but that [93:20] people couldn't be so practical and and [93:23] removed from thinking about new [93:25] possibilities, new ways of humans being [93:28] that they like dismissed it. And I feel [93:30] like we're we are at an important [93:33] repetition point where if we're going to [93:34] break through, I feel like those two [93:36] things have to really um be married in [93:39] the in the movements. and and I and I [93:41] see it in you and I'm I'm I like in your [93:44] relationship to these things. So the [93:46] practical side and the it you know the [93:48] the clearly deep relationship to to [93:51] plants in the world. [93:52] >> I mean I do finally want to push the [93:54] world in one direction and not in [93:56] another. I mean and I you know I I mean [93:59] you know that's considered advocacy in [94:01] journalism and I I I I own up to it. Um, [94:05] once I I mean there's a point when I'm [94:06] starting on a subject where I don't know [94:08] a lot that I wouldn't pretend to know [94:10] where the world should go or where the [94:13] food industry should go, but a certain [94:14] point you've you've mastered the subject [94:17] and you it would be disingenuous not to [94:20] think that I think we need to move this [94:23] way. Not that you know we had such [94:24] success. I mean I'm I just wrote a new [94:26] introduction to Omnivore's Dilemma and I [94:30] wish the book were more dated than it [94:31] is. Um, it's, you know, the food system [94:35] is still screwed up. I I think we have [94:37] more awareness of it. People have a [94:39] better idea where their food comes from. [94:41] They're they're they're making the link [94:43] between um what they're eating and their [94:45] health in a way thanks to people like [94:47] you, but a whole lot of other people, [94:49] but we're still eating a terrible diet [94:52] for the most part in this country. And [94:54] um we still have a agriculture [94:58] that is all about growing corn and soy [95:00] which are the building blocks of [95:01] ultrarocessed food which is making us [95:03] sick and killing us. Um so we have a [95:06] long way to go. In a way we've made more [95:07] progress with psychedelics but in the [95:10] case of psychedelics there was no [95:11] opposition. I mean there was some [95:13] cultural opposition you know that you [95:16] know holdovers from the 60s. Yeah. The [95:18] drug war and things like that. [95:19] >> He didn't like drugs. Now, now the the [95:21] the red side is all about Ibeain for [95:24] veterans. [95:24] >> It's the most amazing transformation. [95:26] >> Rick Perry self-described. I like Rick. [95:28] I get along with him. He's very [95:29] bipartisan about this psychedelic thing. [95:32] And he just self-described. [95:34] You said it, Rick. He calls himself a [95:36] knuckle dragging Republican who's into [95:38] heart medicine. He used those those [95:40] words publicly, so I'm happy to repeat [95:42] it. He he really wants these medicines [95:45] to be available to all veterans who are [95:48] experiencing PTSD and substance abuse [95:51] issues. And he's worked very very hard [95:53] across the aisle to try and bring these [95:56] things to legal safe. [95:58] >> And this is the only way in in our [96:00] current political moment anything gets [96:02] done is is you need you need support on [96:04] the right as well as the left. And and [96:06] that's been a lesson of the food [96:07] movement which was coded kind of left [96:10] liberal. Now you have Maha and there are [96:13] a lot of problems with Maha. Um but [96:15] there are areas of agreement on [96:17] pesticides and on ultrarocessed food [96:19] getting it out of the schools. You know [96:21] used to hear the food movement was [96:22] elitist. You don't hear that anymore and [96:24] that's because you have people on the [96:25] right who are supporting want to push [96:28] the world in the same direction. [96:29] >> That's a really good we have some hope. [96:31] There's some hope there. [96:32] >> Yeah. No, that's a gosh we've got to [96:34] really break down the divisions to move [96:36] healthy eating forward. I was just going [96:38] to um end psychedelics in the in the [96:41] safest way. I I was struck when I would [96:44] started to look at the like the new food [96:46] pyramid stuff. I realized that um the [96:49] American foods have never been healthy. [96:51] Like if people talk about how they eat [96:52] in Europe and my dad's from Argentina [96:54] and how they eat the grass-fed beef was [96:56] that was all they had, right? You know, [96:57] um there's some unhealthy elements about [96:59] the diet there too when they eat heavy [97:01] meals late and you know, but now it's [97:03] people have improved their diet. [97:05] information travels. But you know, we [97:07] think fried chicken, we think um hot [97:10] dogs, hamburgers, mac and cheese, French [97:13] fries, like cotton candy. These are the [97:15] most American apple as American as apple [97:17] pie, right? We don't we don't right. So [97:20] the so the the classic American foods [97:23] were all very unhealthy. So I wonder if [97:26] there's a way to redefine what American [97:28] food is. That and that to me would be [97:30] cool because Americans also pride [97:33] themselves on being pioneers of all [97:36] sorts of things including physical [97:38] endeavors that require a lot of vitality [97:40] and strength, endurance and coordination [97:42] like you know so those generally don't [97:44] come from the foods I described. [97:46] >> No, they don't. And you know America's [97:48] not never had a s a real food tradition [97:50] till the till fast food is our is really [97:54] our our food. [97:55] >> Bummer. [97:55] >> I'm sorry to say. [97:56] >> Bummer. But people came from all these [97:58] other countries and they had a food [98:00] tradition and it got kind of stomped out [98:03] of them. I think part of the problem is [98:05] since we didn't have this deep these [98:07] deep roots and this food tradition we [98:09] were much more vulnerable to marketing [98:12] and then say the you know the French are [98:14] the Italians are um and they had they [98:17] had something to resist um what the [98:20] marketplace wanted to do with food which [98:22] is of course to process it you know the [98:24] cheapest possible raw ingredients. So [98:26] yeah, we need to build an American [98:27] cuisine that um is healthy. Um but it's [98:32] easier said than done or we borrow I [98:34] mean look, we talk about the [98:35] Mediterranean diet, right? It's you know [98:37] one of the diets we we have good reason [98:39] to believe is healthier than others and [98:42] uh and is attractive to a lot of people. [98:44] >> So it doesn't have to be ours. I suppose [98:46] you know we could borrow it from [98:48] somewhere else. Um but it's very hard to [98:51] change people's eating habits. um and [98:54] one of the hardest things and habit in [98:57] general, right? So I, you know, I don't [98:59] I don't see it as easy and in general [99:02] the fact that you now there's a there's [99:04] a growing recognition though that that [99:06] most of the chronic diseases we're [99:08] dealing with, the ones that are killing [99:09] us are food related, diet related. And I [99:13] think you can attack that from the [99:15] cultural stance and get people to eat [99:16] different food, but as long as the the [99:19] policies are making the the bad food [99:22] cheap, which they are. I mean, we [99:26] subsidize [99:27] corn, which gives us high fructose corn [99:30] syrup, which gives us diabetes. [99:32] >> So, we're we're we're s we're supporting [99:34] both sides in the war on type 2 [99:36] diabetes, right? We're supporting the [99:37] sugar and we're supporting the [99:39] treatment. It's insane. [99:40] >> It is insane. and it's costing us a [99:42] fortune. So, we have to change the [99:44] policy and make healthy food cheaper [99:46] relative to unhealthy food. [99:49] >> I'd like to take a quick break and [99:50] acknowledge our sponsor, Matina. Matina [99:53] makes my absolute favorite zero sugar [99:55] cold brew yerba mate. In fact, I helped [99:57] create the newest flavors. Listeners of [99:59] this podcast know that yerba mate is my [100:01] preferred caffeine source and has been [100:03] for a long time. That's because yerba [100:05] provides a smooth energy lift without [100:07] giving you the jitters. And it has many [100:09] other potential benefits such as helping [100:11] to regulate blood sugar, improving [100:13] digestion, mild appetite suppression, [100:15] and more. And I can tell you that having [100:17] tried all the different brands of yerba, [100:18] hot and cold, Matina is my absolute [100:21] favorite. So much so that I became a [100:23] partial owner in the company. And the [100:25] flavors we developed together, I have to [100:26] say, are fantastic. Raspberry yuzo is [100:29] probably my favorite, but I also like [100:31] the mint flavor and I love the peach [100:33] flavor. So, I really can't pick just [100:34] one. I love them all. In fact, I drink [100:36] at least three cans of them every day, [100:38] and you'll often see them on the table [100:40] during my podcast recordings. If you [100:42] want to try Matina, you can go to [100:43] drinkmatina.com. You can also find [100:45] Matina at both Whole Foods and Sprouts [100:48] Market nationwide. And Matina is now [100:50] being sold at all Earth Bar locations [100:52] nationwide. Earth Bar has also come up [100:54] with a new Matina smoothie called the [100:57] Protocol that you can try for a limited [100:59] time. I've tried it and it's absolutely [101:01] delicious. It has, of course, matina. It [101:03] has fruits and vegetables. It's [101:05] sweetened only with pineapple. It has [101:06] collagen and whey protein. It's [101:08] absolutely delicious. It's also [101:10] beautiful. The colors are beautiful. So, [101:11] be sure to check out Matina nationwide [101:13] at Whole Foods, Sprouts, and now [101:15] EarthBar as well. Is the current [101:17] administration with the emphasis uh on [101:20] healthy eating that they that they're [101:23] out there with is are they [101:24] >> they're not doing anything? [101:25] >> They're not doing it. [101:26] >> No. I mean, RFK Jr. has been talking a [101:28] good game on this. But um meanwhile, the [101:32] the big beautiful bill [101:34] um eliminated all sorts of farm to [101:37] school and farm to um other institution [101:41] uh supporting small agriculture, [101:42] regenerative agriculture. They're [101:44] cutting all that stuff while they talk [101:46] about it. And uh the only change they've [101:49] made on food after over 2 years has been [101:54] getting food companies to voluntarily [101:56] remove some dyes from cereal. [102:00] I don't think that's that big a deal. I [102:01] don't think dyes are a a crucial health [102:04] problem and it's voluntary. So this [102:06] administration is not going to regulate [102:08] anything. Um and the changes we need in [102:10] the food system, getting ultrarocessed [102:13] food out of the school lunch program is [102:15] going to require regulations. uh and [102:17] they're deregulating pesticides like [102:19] crazy. [102:19] >> Yeah, that's concerning. [102:21] >> Very concerning. So, no, I I don't think [102:23] it's uh an honest effort. I but I do [102:26] think what RFK Jr. has done that is [102:29] valuable is he's surfaced this other [102:31] constituency that we we were not aware [102:33] of. And these are mothers, many of whom [102:36] have kids with serious illnesses that [102:39] they're trying to treat with a better [102:41] diet. And I met them without knowing it [102:45] when I was writing Omnivore's Dilemma. I [102:47] was hanging out on Joel Salatin's farm. [102:49] He's a very progressive farmer in um in [102:52] Virginia who has pioneered a kind of [102:54] grass-based agriculture where he rotates [102:58] different species over the same [103:00] grasslands and and grows amazing food, [103:03] um eggs and meat, uh especially. And [103:06] he's in the middle of nowhere. He's like [103:08] 45 minutes from the interstate. And [103:10] these people would show up on Saturdays [103:12] to pick up their pastured chickens and [103:13] and and I was wondering who are these [103:15] people and how do they know about him? [103:18] And they were part of a whole network [103:21] and they were they were these Maha Moms [103:24] before they were called that. And uh [103:26] they were members of something called [103:27] the Western Price Society um which is uh [103:32] long story but um promotes grass-based [103:36] uh animal protein and um has been around [103:40] since the 30s or so. Um and has a very [103:43] big network that no one on the coast [103:46] notices, but it's out there. And uh and [103:48] I would talk to these mothers and they [103:50] they you know they had their thing with [103:51] seed oils and food is medicine and you [103:54] know they were not aligned with science [103:56] always but they were passionate about [103:59] clean food and um uh and were willing to [104:02] drive a 100 miles to get it then. [104:04] >> Wow. So Kennedy surfaced these people [104:07] and now they're engaged politically. And [104:11] if the food movement can make common [104:13] cause with them and we've seen some some [104:16] early signs, there was a a bill in [104:19] Congress that the administration was [104:21] supporting that would have exempted [104:23] uh pesticide makers from from lawsuits, [104:26] all lawsuits. [104:28] And um and it was in an appropriations [104:30] bill. And um Shelley Pingri, who's a [104:33] food movement leader and an organic [104:35] farmer from Maine in Congress, she got [104:37] together with Maha activists and they [104:40] got it stripped out of the bill and they [104:41] did it twice. [104:42] >> Right. [104:43] >> So that's what we need. That's the kind [104:45] of politics just like psychedelics right [104:46] and left together. You can get things [104:48] done. [104:49] >> Yeah. Amen to that. I [104:52] am forever stamped in my brain is, you [104:55] know, Rick Perry and I forget who it was [104:56] on the Democratic side like literally [104:58] holding the hands of like we're for [105:00] heart medicine and this was at a [105:01] veterans um benefit. Um and it's [105:05] interesting similarly to well in in sort [105:07] of parallel construction with as you [105:09] said with the whereas the food uh slow [105:11] food and and you know movement um [105:14] healthy food movement used to be [105:16] considered elitist and now it's not. [105:20] in the psychedelics thing used to be [105:22] like big sir hippies very left-leaning [105:25] and what seems to have moved the most [105:27] intense of all the psychedelics I gain [105:30] looks like it's going to cross the line [105:31] as into a true um supported therapeutic [105:35] by the FDA it's not there yet was the [105:37] veterans community which of course is [105:39] right and left but tends to lean right [105:42] if we're honest and that's pretty [105:43] remarkable [105:44] >> yeah it is it is and something I would [105:47] not have foreseen No, no. And and it's [105:50] really to the credit, I think, of of the [105:52] veterans like um Marcus Latrrell and and [105:56] um Marcus Capone and but also Rick, you [105:58] know. I'll say like I you know um [106:01] >> Rick Perry also I would add Rick Din [106:03] >> and Rick Dolin. The Ricks. [106:05] >> The Ricks Ricks. [106:06] >> The Ricks. Two very different [106:07] characters. [106:08] >> I'll say [106:08] >> actually here's a funny one about Rick [106:10] Davlin. Uh that at this event he got up [106:13] there and he he said it was room full of [106:16] veterans. um a lot of SEALs, a lot of [106:18] spee spec ops folks and um and the first [106:22] thing he said was that he was a [106:23] conscientious objector during the [106:25] Vietnam War. And the room just went [106:27] silent and then I looked around and [106:29] there were a lot of smiles. They [106:30] appreciated his honesty. Honesty [106:32] >> and you know I I [106:35] adore him too. I adore him too. [106:37] >> But he but he very deliberately reached [106:39] out to the right years ago. I remember [106:42] he took a a contribution from Rebecca [106:44] Mercer who was a big Trump one supporter [106:47] and and people gave him a lot of grief [106:50] in in his organization and you know why [106:52] are you in bed with someone from the [106:54] right and he said no this is really [106:55] important this is how we're going to get [106:56] change so I he's a visionary [107:00] >> and uh and he reached out to the [107:02] veterans groups and um so he deserves [107:06] some of the credit too [107:07] >> definitely the Ricks excuse me I for not [107:09] crediting you dolin has the worst diet [107:11] ever. We're working on him. He has like [107:13] croissants and orange juice for [107:14] breakfast. And he has more energy than [107:16] any human being alive. Awake and [107:19] cheerful and and clear of mind [107:23] >> for 20 hours. [107:24] >> And a journalist dream. He never goes [107:26] off the record and he'll tell you [107:28] exactly what he thinks. [107:29] >> I love it. [107:30] >> Um, couple more questions about [107:31] psychedelics and then I want to talk [107:32] about the most important drug on the [107:34] planet um, which is caffeine. But when [107:37] do you think MDMA andor psilocybin will [107:41] get FDA approval given what you [107:42] understand? Cuz it's kind of wild that [107:44] Ibagane, the one psychedelic that no [107:46] one's would even want to use [107:48] recreationally, is going to get there [107:49] first. It's [107:50] >> and hasn't been, by the way, subjected [107:52] to university drug trials, [107:54] >> right? [107:55] >> That's kind of incredible. [107:56] >> It's incredible. [107:57] >> Yeah. [107:57] >> So, what about MDMA and psilocybin? [107:59] >> They're closer. Um, so the resilient is [108:03] the name of the company. It used to be [108:04] LIOS. It was part of MAPS. They've put [108:07] forward MDMA uh in the treatment of uh [108:10] trauma and they were turned down once, [108:13] but they've resubmitted with some [108:15] additional data. It looks like they're [108:17] fast-tracked. The same um executive [108:20] order that um is fasttracking Ibeane is [108:25] fasttracking other psychedelics. It was [108:26] apparently originally written for [108:28] Ibagane and somebody in the White House [108:30] said it's kind of crazy to just do this [108:31] one. Um there are these others that are [108:34] closer to having the data we need. And [108:38] then psilocybin coming from Compass uh a [108:41] company called Compass Pathways is also [108:44] close. You know, I hear before the end [108:47] of the year, but I I I it's hard to [108:50] believe. You know, I've been hearing [108:52] it's close for a long time. I think it [108:54] really is close this time. Mhm. [108:55] >> The reason it's happening, we should be [108:58] clear, is because uh Joe Rogan texted [109:02] the president and said, "This is really [109:03] important." He had done a show on [109:05] Ibagain [109:07] uh and um President Trump having lost [109:11] the the the manosphere vote or afraid of [109:14] losing the manosphere vote um wanted to [109:17] give Rogan something he cared about. And [109:21] um you know, is this the way to do drug [109:23] approvals in America? I have some [109:25] questions about that. Um I think I think [109:27] Trump's doing the right thing for the [109:29] wrong reasons, but there we are. So I [109:31] think it will happen soon. It's going to [109:33] be uh an earthquake when it happens [109:36] because [109:39] they'll be approved as medicines and to [109:41] be administered in a certain way with [109:43] some regulations. But the message that [109:46] the public will take that the society [109:48] will take is that these things that we [109:50] thought were dangerous drugs are [109:51] medicines. people who haven't thought [109:53] about psychedelics. We are in a small [109:55] community of people thinking who've been [109:57] thinking about psychedelics for the last [109:58] 10 years. Everyone's going to be saying, [110:01] "Is this for me? Is this for my kid? Is [110:04] this for my parents?" [110:05] >> Yikes. Well, except for the parents [110:07] part. I'm just kidding. I'm just [110:08] kidding. [110:10] >> I wouldn't mind doing psychedelics with [110:11] my parents, but uh but I I hear you loud [110:13] and clear. I mean, there are people who [110:14] have pre predisposition to psychosis or [110:17] heart issues that [110:18] >> Yeah. [110:18] >> And look what's happened with cannabis. [110:19] I mean, you know, we thought cannabis [110:21] was a very safe drug, but now that it is [110:23] being used so widely, we're we're [110:25] learning about addiction psychosis [110:27] >> and psychosis. And so, you know, it's [110:31] going to be a I think there's a lot of [110:32] public education to be done uh to help [110:35] people navigate this. And, you know, [110:38] they're not for everybody and there are [110:40] people who definitely should stay away [110:41] from psychedelics. And, uh, so it's [110:44] going to be a very interesting couple [110:46] years after it's approved. Um, and I [110:49] hope it's done with some care. Um, but [110:52] but we'll see. I mean, there is enormous [110:55] hope here and and many people we can [110:58] talk about the risk. They're real risks, [111:00] but there are people whose lives will be [111:02] saved by this. I mean I have interviewed [111:04] so many people who've had transformative [111:07] experiences [111:08] um that have uh you know uh cured their [111:12] addictions um their depression [111:15] uh their [111:17] OCD um obsessivecompulsive disorder. I [111:20] mean there is a lot of potential here [111:22] and the field of mental health needs new [111:25] tools. The ones they have just don't [111:27] work very well. If we do this right, [111:30] we're gonna we're gonna um benefit an [111:33] enormous number of people. But doing it [111:35] right is not gonna be easy. [111:36] >> No. No. You made all the critical [111:38] points. And I also want to extend my [111:41] gratitude to you and Tim Ferrris um [111:44] who've worked really really hard. [111:45] >> Tim's done amazing work. [111:46] >> Amazing work to get this to where it is [111:48] and hopefully across the line and done [111:50] right. I I think I know you both care a [111:52] lot about that and there are others, but [111:54] you guys have really stuck your neck [111:55] necks out there early when it was when [111:57] it was risky and have really continued [112:00] to to [112:01] >> I remember how nervous I was when I [112:02] published how to change your mind. I was [112:04] talking about my own psychedelic [112:05] experience. I didn't know what would [112:06] happen. I thought the police would be [112:08] knocking at the door. [112:09] >> I mean, landed right. The timing was [112:12] right. [112:12] >> Yeah, the timing was right. [112:13] >> You were like really early but not so [112:15] early that [112:16] >> the police would be at your door and [112:18] Yeah. [112:19] >> Wild. I listened to because as I recall [112:22] it's only in audio book your book about [112:24] um doing this absolutely stupid [112:27] experiment. No, I'm kidding. of uh it [112:29] was so awesome. I I love this book where [112:32] you quit caffeine and um I drink a lot [112:34] of caffeine from the first time I took a [112:36] sip of mate. I was like this completes [112:40] me, [112:41] >> you know, in some way, you know, the the [112:43] same way some people who drink alcohol [112:44] feel. And I'm grateful it's caffeine and [112:47] not alcohol. [112:48] >> Much better drug. [112:49] >> Yeah. I I think so. So, and 90% of the [112:52] world's adults consume it every day and [112:54] and on and on and um and I love it and [112:58] unless I've been sick, I I don't really [113:00] know life without caffeine. What [113:02] >> You should try it, though. [113:03] >> Yeah. So, I was going to say, what do [113:04] you think an experiment like quitting [113:06] caffeine for an extended period of time [113:08] could do for somebody like me or for [113:10] somebody listening that would perhaps [113:13] allow the caffeine to be even a better [113:16] experience after? Is that what it's [113:17] about? or what did you discover about [113:19] consciousness? What did you seriously [113:21] what did you discover about um your [113:24] relationship to substances or work or [113:26] focus or anything? What what was [113:28] revealed there? I read the book. I [113:29] listened to the book and I highly [113:30] recommend it as I do all your books [113:32] >> and it is in a print book too. There's I [113:34] I subsequently put it in a book called [113:36] This is Your Mind on Plants and um uh [113:39] which came out a couple years ago and [113:40] it's one of three chapters in that book. [113:42] So caffeine is a really interesting [113:45] drug. First of all, most of us don't [113:46] think of it as a drug. Um, but it is a [113:49] drug to which most of us are addicted [113:51] and something like 90% yeah use it on a [113:53] daily basis whether it's in the form of [113:55] coffee, tea or or herb mate or a couple [113:58] other substances. I interviewed Roland [114:00] Griffith u when I started writing about [114:03] caffeine because before he got involved [114:05] he's he's the was the [114:07] psychopharmarmacologist at Johns Hopkins [114:09] who did the initial work on psilocybin [114:12] and really launched the psychedelic [114:13] renaissance and um but before he worked [114:16] on psychedelics he worked on caffeine so [114:18] I I wanted to talk to him about it and [114:20] during this interview he said you know [114:21] the only way you can really understand a [114:23] drug that you're taking habitually is to [114:26] get off it you can't understand it until [114:30] you it's out of your system completely. [114:32] So, he proposed that I go on this [114:34] caffeine fast. [114:36] I started really young, like 8 or 10. It [114:39] was a way to be with my dad. He would [114:41] get up really early in the morning and [114:43] he got home very late at night and as I [114:44] said, he's sort of absent a lot of the [114:46] time, but the time I could really [114:47] connect with him was at breakfast. I'd [114:49] get my drag myself out of bed and have [114:51] coffee with him. And um so my addiction [114:54] started very early. It was very hard to [114:57] get off. If you go cold turkey, people [115:00] describe flu-l like symptoms. I just [115:02] felt off. I could not focus. I felt like [115:05] I had ADHD. [115:07] I didn't feel myself, which is odd. And [115:09] I couldn't write at all. I mean, it was [115:11] so wired into my writing process. It was [115:14] just forget it. You know, that idea of [115:16] sitting at a desk. And it was just [115:19] really hard to do to shake it. After a [115:22] couple days, the symptoms started to [115:25] subside. And I finally got to this point [115:28] where I had no caffeine in my system and [115:30] I wasn't having tea either. And but even [115:32] then I didn't feel like myself. And I [115:36] thought, well, isn't that weird? You [115:37] feel more yourself on a drug than not on [115:40] the drug. I just felt like I was [115:42] somebody else. It was hard. I did it for [115:46] about three months and all the while I'm [115:48] researching caffeine and learning about [115:50] it and learning, you know, it's it's not [115:53] bad for you. You can overuse it. It has [115:55] a lot of very positive health effects up [115:58] to seven or eight cups a day and at that [116:01] point problems [116:03] >> begin and some people get jittery on a [116:05] lot less than that. Um but for most [116:07] people it is addictive but aside from [116:11] you know jitteriness if you get it then [116:13] the negative effects are are are [116:16] outweighed by positive effects. Helps [116:18] people with Parkinson's reduces blood [116:21] pressure. I forget I had a whole list of [116:23] all the health benefits. There are a lot [116:25] of and some of them are not tied to the [116:27] caffeine. Of course, they're also very [116:28] valuable polyphenols in coffee and tea, [116:31] which are a great boon to the [116:32] microbiome. But the day I got back on [116:36] caffeine, my first cup, it was it was [116:40] just the best drug experience. Better [116:42] than any psychedelic experience I've [116:44] had. It was so powerful. I was just [116:47] flying. I had all this energy and I came [116:50] home and I cleaned my closet which I I [116:54] never do. Uh I I cleaned up the garden. [116:57] I just was just I was a superman. It was [117:00] just wonderful. And then I had another [117:02] cup and it was like not as special. And [117:05] uh but I thought to myself, is there a [117:07] way to preserve that power? because [117:10] getting back on caffeine is very [117:12] different than the daily experience of [117:13] getting to baseline, which is [117:15] essentially what you're doing with a [117:16] addiction like that. So I thought, okay, [117:19] I'm only going to do caffeine one day a [117:21] week. Saturdays, I'll have coffee, [117:24] nothing none else. And it worked for a [117:27] few weeks and my Saturday coffee was [117:29] wonderful. But then I had a big deadline [117:32] on a Thursday and I thought, you know, [117:34] this would really get me over the hump [117:36] if I have a cup and slippery slope back [117:39] to, you know, every day. But I [117:42] appreciate it. I have no no bad faith [117:45] about drinking coffee. I think it's [117:48] God's gift to mankind in so many ways. [117:51] Tea, too. I also drink green tea. [117:53] >> I think we're very lucky to have it. [117:55] >> It does have very positive cognitive [117:57] benefits in terms of focus. I mean [117:59] people, you know, they've done tests on [118:00] students who preparing for an exam. If [118:04] they have a cup of coffee or tea, [118:08] >> or maybe it's done with pills cuz they [118:10] had a placebo control, probably with [118:12] pills. The the ones who had caffeine [118:14] perform better on the tests. It's uh a [118:17] really great focus drug. It's cocaine [118:19] without all the problems. [118:22] >> Love it. Well, and you live in a great [118:24] city for great coffee. [118:26] >> We have such good coffee. the original [118:27] pizza is just down the street and the [118:29] cheese board and yeah. [118:31] >> Well, I'm so grateful you wrote the book [118:33] and that you did the experiment. I I [118:34] will seriously consider doing the [118:36] experiment. [118:36] >> Give it a try. You learn a lot and it's [118:38] it's just about thinking about your [118:40] relationship to drugs in general. I [118:41] mean, they are part of our lives. It's a [118:43] normal part of human life. [118:46] >> Our thinking about drugs has been really [118:48] contaminated by the drug war. Drugs are [118:51] not good or bad. I mean there it's all [118:53] about context and caffeine is a really [118:55] great case study and and it'll you learn [118:59] something about yourself getting off it [119:01] and and then getting back on it. [119:02] >> Well, I'm excited. The way you describe [119:04] it and that the fact that you share the [119:06] belief that it is God's gift to mankind [119:08] is uh is a reason enough. [119:11] >> Michael, thank you so much for coming [119:12] here today, sharing your knowledge and [119:15] for writing all these books. I mean, you [119:18] have humanized plants in a way that [119:20] makes people healthier when they pay [119:22] attention to and act on the information. [119:24] Your care for humanity is is [119:28] self-evident and for animals and and [119:30] plants, too. The whole You strike me as [119:32] somebody who really has like the whole [119:34] picture. And yet, [119:35] >> I'm trying. [119:36] >> You're not just running around saying [119:37] one love and everyone should drop acid. [119:40] Thank goodness. I mean, you're obviously [119:41] a super serious scholar of everything. [119:44] you uh put your uh your pen to and and [119:48] when you speak I learn and people really [119:50] learn. Um I know you have a book that [119:53] you're working on now about the [119:54] microbiome. Maybe we have you back to [119:56] talk about that if you're willing. [119:58] >> Happy to when it comes out. Yeah, it's [120:00] an audio book. It's another short audio [120:02] book and it'll be out sometime next [120:03] year. [120:04] >> Great. Well, I would love to have you [120:05] back around that time. Sounds good. [120:07] >> And I know I speak on behalf of like [120:09] millions and millions of people. Thank [120:11] you for doing what you do. And [120:12] >> you're so generous. [120:13] >> I'm so glad you dropped those watermelon [120:15] seeds into the ground. Here we are. [120:18] >> Me, too. Thank you, Andrew. I appreciate [120:20] it. [120:21] >> Thank you for joining me for today's [120:22] discussion with Michael Pollen. To learn [120:24] more about his work and to find links to [120:26] his many excellent books, including his [120:28] most recent book on consciousness. [120:30] Please see the show note caption. If [120:32] you're learning from and or enjoying [120:33] this podcast, please subscribe to our [120:35] YouTube channel. That's a terrific [120:36] zerocost way to support us. 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