Grusch Details Fatal Clashes, Rogue Financing in US UFO Recoveries
PowerfulJRE
Former intelligence officer David Grusch claims entrenched defense programs concealed intact non-human craft, diverted illicit funds, and engaged in lethal firefights with recovered biological entities.
David Grusch revealed an ongoing Department of Justice investigation into active murder plots against him, which were disclosed during a classified Senate Intelligence Committee SCIF briefing. (16:50)
The U.S. government possesses intact and semi-intact non-human craft as well as biological cadavers, supported by comparative genomic sequencing and compartmentalized crash-retrieval audiovisual records. (22:38)
Classified briefings detail fatal armed confrontations between U.S. military recovery teams and living non-human entities, including a documented firefight resulting in U.S. casualties and dead reptilian-type beings. (127:14)
Grusch warns that private Artificial Superintelligence (ASI) models could trigger inadvertent disclosure by independently detecting discrepancies across sensor feeds, medical data, and historical archives without needing access to classified vaults. (147:43)
Detailed notes
## Background
Published on YouTube by PowerfulJRE on September 30, 2026, this episode features former United States Air Force intelligence officer David Grusch. According to the video description, Grusch previously served as the National Reconnaissance Office representative to the Unidentified Aerial Phenomena Task Force and co-lead for UAP analysis at the National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency.
## TL;DR
David Grusch details his tenure investigating legacy UAP programs as a congressional staffer, revealing active Department of Justice inquiries into off-the-books black-budget pipelines, human trafficking, and lethal assassination plots targeting whistleblowers. He reaffirms the physical retrieval of intact non-human craft and biological cadavers, outlining entity taxonomies, inter-species conflict, and historical cover-ups dating back to Project Blue Book and Cold War nuclear hotline protocols. Grusch also touches on ancient archaeological anomalies, underwater structures, and military firefights with non-human entities. He concludes that the White House must initiate threshold disclosure during the Trump administration before foreign rivals or emergent Artificial Superintelligence trigger uncontrolled revelations.
## Atmosphere & style
The interview has an intense, paranoid, and solemn atmosphere, alternating between rigorous intelligence debriefing and raw, swear-laden disbelief at the severe personal costs of whistleblowing. Joe Rogan serves as an astonished sounding board, navigating the cognitive dissonance of discussing lethal threats, covert retrievals, and anomalous entities alongside a decorated former officer. The exchange carries the palpable exhaustion and gravity of a high-stakes final testimony, where the conversation feels less like speculative ufology and more like a reluctant insider exposing institutional corruption.
## Bulletin
- [16:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=1010s) David Grusch revealed an ongoing Department of Justice investigation into active murder plots against him, which were disclosed during a classified Senate Intelligence Committee SCIF briefing.
- [22:38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=1358s) The U.S. government possesses intact and semi-intact non-human craft as well as biological cadavers, supported by comparative genomic sequencing and compartmentalized crash-retrieval audiovisual records.
- [02:07:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=7634s) Classified briefings detail fatal armed confrontations between U.S. military recovery teams and living non-human entities, including a documented firefight resulting in U.S. casualties and dead reptilian-type beings.
- [02:27:43](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=8863s) Grusch warns that private Artificial Superintelligence (ASI) models could trigger inadvertent disclosure by independently detecting discrepancies across sensor feeds, medical data, and historical archives without needing access to classified vaults.
## Key takeaways
- [00:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=1s) Grusch transitioned from public whistleblower to official congressional investigator after being hired by Representative Eric Burlison following the stalling of the 2023 UAP Disclosure Act.
- [05:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=344s) Black-budget legacy programs rely on illicit financial pipelines and unmonitored special operations, including links to narcotics and human trafficking investigated by the Department of Justice.
- [13:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=794s) Whistleblowers and intelligence staff faced severe administrative retaliation, directed-energy harassment consistent with Havana syndrome, and credible assassination plots.
- [45:05](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=2705s) A primary obstacle to official disclosure is legal liability surrounding decades of DFARS acquisition violations and exclusive proprietary technology transfers to legacy defense contractors.
- [54:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=3286s) The U.S. government has recovered physical craft of diverse geometries alongside non-human biological cadavers verified by genomic analysis.
- [58:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=3528s) Contemporary retrieval video inspected by Grusch depicts multiple deceased human-like humanoid entities with pale skin, refined features, and form-fitting suits.
- [01:12:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=4341s) Multiple distinct non-human species interact with Earth, and crash retrievals occasionally stem from adversarial aerial combat between competing non-human factions.
- [01:25:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=5113s) Subterranean scanning and archaeological excavations indicate historical interactions, including non-standard metallic anomalies discovered beneath Egypt's Hawara labyrinth.
- [01:54:34](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=6874s) Declassified 1952 recordings from Project Blue Book confirm military radar and optical tracking of anomalous objects exceeding 3,500 mph near nuclear and missile installations.
- [02:07:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=7634s) U.S. military personnel engaged in a fatal firefight with aggressive non-human entities during a retrieval operation, resulting in deaths on both sides.
- [02:17:41](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=8261s) Non-human craft operate out of massive submerged underwater installations spanning multiple city blocks, actively tracked by naval intelligence.
- [02:23:23](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=8603s) Recovered non-human craft often lack aerodynamic surfaces or manual flight controls, utilizing direct biological-to-technological consciousness interfaces.
- [02:26:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=8761s) A threshold presidential disclosure confirming the reality of non-human intelligence and recovered craft is strategically targeted to occur before the conclusion of Donald Trump's administration.
## Detailed walkthrough
### [00:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=1s) From Whistleblower to Congressional Investigator
Joe Rogan welcomes back David Grusch, noting that Grusch has been sitting closest to the flame on the unidentified anomalous phenomena (UAP) issue. Grusch admits that navigating the fallout has felt like "living a nightmare" over the past several years. Following his high-profile public congressional testimony and the subsequent failure of the UAP Disclosure Act of 2023 to pass in its original, robust form, Grusch decided to lay low throughout 2024 based on intelligence and pushback he observed coming out of the White House and the Biden administration.
The trajectory shifted when Representative Eric Burlison proposed bringing Grusch on as a professional congressional staff member. Grusch accepted, making history as the first person to deliver whistleblower testimony before the United States Congress and then be hired directly by Congress to investigate the very matters he testified about. Grusch spent approximately a year and a half serving on Capitol Hill, working through the August summer recess until Labor Day to wrap up key investigative objectives before shifting into a new phase of operations and taking a much-needed break from operating "full throttle."
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: David Grusch Transition Timeline
accDescr: Timeline showing Grusch's progression from military intelligence to congressional staffer and investigator.
subgraph Phase1["Whistleblower Phase"]
A["USAF / NRO / NGA Intelligence"] --> B["2023 Congressional Public Testimony"]
B --> C["UAP Disclosure Act of 2023 Fails"]
end
subgraph Phase2["Congressional Staff Phase"]
C --> D["2024 Laying Low"]
D --> E["Hired by Rep. Eric Burlison"]
E --> F["Professional Staff Member on Capitol Hill"]
end
subgraph Phase3["Investigation & Next Phase"]
F --> G["SCIF Briefings on Black Budget & Misconduct"]
G --> H["Wind-down post-Labor Day Recess"]
end
```
[02:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=127s) The Congressional Divide and Classified SCIF Briefings
Rogan asks about the political climate on Capitol Hill—whether members of Congress genuinely want disclosure or if institutional resistance dominates. Grusch explains that Congress is split between entrenched non-believers and an active, bipartisan "UAP caucus." Momentum has been building; Grusch points to a June press conference held outside the Capitol featuring lawmakers such as retired Brigadier General and Representative Scott Perry of Pennsylvania, a member of the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence.
Behind closed doors, Grusch conducted numerous classified briefings inside Sensitive Compartmented Information Facilities (SCIFs). These sessions walked lawmakers through the broader topological history of the UAP subject as well as far darker, illicit activities Grusch stumbled upon while following the money. When Rogan asks what kind of criminal activity he uncovered, Grusch explains that while he must tread carefully due to active Department of Justice (DOJ) involvement, his inquiries led him straight into illicit, off-the-books financial pipelines operating within national security structures.
[03:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=188s) The $40 Million Gold Bar Heist and Black Budget Logistics
To illustrate how black budgets and rogue programs function without conventional oversight, Grusch points to a bizarre parallel case in the news involving a CIA officer named David Rush (sharing a nearly identical name). Rush fabricated a bogus, unbriefed Continuity of Government (COG) Special Access Program (SAP) out of thin air. Exploiting the absolute secrecy and total lack of lateral questioning within the agency, Rush claimed his covert emergency program required tens of millions of dollars in physical precious metals.
The FBI raided Rush's home in May, uncovering roughly $40 million in gold along with high-end luxury goods such as Rolex watches. Grusch and Rogan discuss the sheer physical scale of the seizure: approximately 303 gold bars, each weighing one kilogram (roughly 2.2 pounds), totaling over 600 pounds of solid gold stockpiled in a residential house. Rogan is stunned that an agency keeps loose gold bars on hand, though Grusch notes operational realities where covert missions—such as operations in Afghanistan—routinely deployed briefcases packed with $100,000 in cash to pay assets and fund operations off the ledger.
- **Seizure Details:** Approximately 303 one-kilogram bars (~667 lbs total) valued at roughly $40 million.
- **Mechanism:** Exploitation of papered, unbriefed Continuity of Government Special Access Programs (SAPs) to bypass agency oversight.
- **Parallel Operational Funding:** CIA field operatives historically utilizing cash and untraceable commodities for covert logistics.
[05:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=344s) The Deep Underbelly: Illicit Enterprises and Trafficking
Grusch clarifies that while the Rush case was a solo scam within a continuity-of-government shell, it mirrors the exact ecosystem he bumped into during his official investigation. While the vast majority of personnel working on genuine UAP crash-retrieval and reverse-engineering programs are patriotic, dedicated individuals doing their duty, Grusch discovered a small, insulated caste operating within a broader, unregulated environment. Within this deep underbelly, individuals engage in severe, unspeakable criminal endeavors to generate washed money for cutouts and completely unmonitored special operations.
When Rogan asks directly if this means human trafficking, specifically child trafficking conducted by elements connected to government officers, Grusch confirms: "Officers of the government. That's true." Grusch emphasizes that he laid out these specific details to members of Congress inside classified SCIF briefings and handed actionable evidence over to the Department of Justice, underscoring the extreme gravity and dark ramifications surrounding the issue.
[07:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=433s) Historical Precedents: From Iran-Contra to LAPD Whistleblowers
Grusch draws a direct comparison between these off-the-books operations and the Iran-Contra affair of 1986, where Oliver North and CIA cutouts engaged in unauthorized arms sales and illicit funding pipelines—frequently tied to narcotics trafficking—to fund the Nicaraguan Contras without congressional approval. Rogan brings up former guests who lived through the domestic impact of those covert pipelines, specifically "Freeway" Ricky Ross, the kingpin central to the 1980s crack epidemic in South Central Los Angeles. Rogan recounts how Ross learned to read in prison, studied the law, discovered he had been improperly sentenced under the "three strikes" rule, and eventually won his release, completely unaware during his trafficking days that his supply chain was tied directly back to CIA-backed Contra procurement.
Rogan also highlights Michael Ruppert, the former LAPD narcotics officer who famously challenged CIA Director John Deutch during a televised 1996 town hall on C-SPAN. Ruppert testified that federal narcotics agencies actively blocked local drug busts because the networks were protected CIA operations. Grusch agrees with the historical pattern, stating that discovering these modern, dark iterations of rogue programs prompted him to immediately bring his findings directly to the Department of Justice.
[09:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=558s) Oversight Breakdown and Becoming an Reluctant Whistleblower
David Grusch explains the dark trajectory of his investigation, remarking that uncovering illicit activities like human trafficking takes things to an entirely different and disturbing level. Grusch mentions collaborating with the Department of Justice and notes that he reportedly received a "gold star" or high commendation during a briefing delivered to Kash Patel the previous year. While Grusch emphasizes that many legacy Unidentified Anomalous Phenomena (UAP) programs originated legitimately—founded under classified executive orders with upstanding personnel—the complete absence of congressional oversight allowed unchecked corruption to fester. Over decades, insulated small pockets within the national security apparatus began acting outside the law.
Grusch stresses that he never intended to become a whistleblower. He spent 15 years as an elite Air Force intelligence officer handling the nation's most sensitive secrets, even briefing the National Security Council at the White House on space issues during the Obama administration while still in his mid-20s. When tasked to join the UAP Task Force in 2019, he anticipated uncovering standard Special Access Program (SAP) dysfunction or bureaucratic compartmentalization. He expected that if an unacknowledged program existed, officials would eventually approach him, present a non-disclosure agreement (NDA), defensively brief him, and bring him inside the tent. Instead, no one offered an NDA or an official sit-down, and the response turned adversarial.
- Briefed Kash Patel indirectly via DOJ channels, earning documented commendations for the investigative findings.
- Clarifies that core UAP programs originated legally under historic classified executive orders, but decayed due to a total lack of congressional oversight.
- Began White House briefings to the National Security Council on space domain issues in his mid-20s under the Obama administration.
- Joined the UAP Task Force in 2019 expecting ordinary bureaucratic Special Access Program (SAP) friction rather than active criminality.
---
[11:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=677s) Administrative Retaliation at the NRO and NGA
By October 2020, Grusch's professional and personal life took a dramatic turn. Instead of engaging him defensively, entrenched individuals initiated severe administrative retaliation. Grusch describes being "administratively nuked," with hostile elements targeting everyone in his orbit whom they viewed as enablers. Grusch was serving as an Air Force Reserve Major at the National Reconnaissance Office (NRO) headquarters in Chantilly, Virginia, when leadership targeted him under fabricated personal conduct allegations. Similar pressure campaigns were directed at his Chief of Staff and colleagues at the National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency (NGA), where he served as a civilian GS-15.
The retaliators weaponized Grusch's prior military mental health history—specifically service-connected PTSD related to his deployment in Afghanistan. Grusch notes that he had properly disclosed and adjudicated these issues long prior, successfully retaining his Top Secret/Sensitive Compartmented Information (TS/SCI) clearance throughout. Despite their efforts to strip his credentials, Grusch fought the administrative actions and maintained his clearance. However, the campaign soon escalated beyond paper retaliations into overt personal intimidation.
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: Administrative Retaliation Escalation Path
accDescr: Diagram illustrating the escalation from administrative retaliation to physical intimidation against David Grusch and his team.
subgraph RetaliationStage ["Administrative Retaliation (Oct 2020)"]
A["NRO HQ (Chantilly, VA)<br/>Fabricated conduct charges"] --> B["Attacks on Enablers<br/>Chief of Staff & NGA colleagues"]
B --> C["Weaponization of Records<br/>Afghanistan PTSD background"]
end
subgraph EscalationStage ["Physical & Operational Escalation (2021–2022)"]
D["Anomalous Health Incidents<br/>Directed energy / Havana syndrome"] --> E["Surveillance & Direct Threat<br/>Targeted warning at residence"]
E --> F["Senate SCIF Revelation<br/>Active assassination plot revealed"]
end
RetaliationStage --> EscalationStage
```
---
[13:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=794s) Targeted Threats and Directed-Energy Harassment
Beginning in early 2021, the pressure took a physical and physiological toll on those assisting Grusch. Several individuals cooperating with his probe began suffering from anomalous health incidents (AHIs) consistent with Havana syndrome. Drawing on his governmental background investigating AHIs, Grusch recognized the symptomology and tradecraft of targeted microwave directed-energy weapons. While his initial training led him to suspect hostile foreign intelligence services like Russia or China retaliating for past covert operations, the timing aligned uncomfortably with his domestic inquiry. Throughout 2021, Grusch endured simultaneous investigations from three separate agencies while sitting at home, relying on trusted colleagues to press forward with the UAP investigation on his behalf.
In late 2021, Grusch was hired off the street by the NGA as a GS-15, hoping the agency would shield him from aggressive factions within the CIA, the NRO, and the Department of Defense. But by early 2022, the intimidation crossed an unmistakable line. Grusch detected suspicious activity around his residence, followed by an explicit message sent on the very same day to him and multiple geographically separated associates: they were being monitored, and actors had the capability to reach Grusch and his wife directly. Grusch immediately referred the incident to federal counterintelligence and law enforcement. He suspected the hostile faction had compromised his classified workstation, monitoring the encrypted investigative notes he was compiling.
- Associates assisting the inquiry suffered Havana syndrome/AHI symptoms matching microwave directed-energy exposure in early 2021.
- Subjected to concurrent retaliatory investigations across three distinct national security agencies throughout 2021.
- Re-entered public service as a civilian GS-15 at the NGA in late 2021 seeking organizational protection.
- Received an orchestrated threat targeting him and his wife in early 2022, coordinated geographically across multiple witnesses simultaneously.
- Believes unauthorized internal monitoring of his encrypted, classified workstation files prompted the escalation.
---
[16:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=1010s) The Senate SCIF Revelation and Active DOJ Investigation
A few weeks after receiving direct threats, Grusch traveled to Washington, D.C. on official NGA business for a UAP conference. During this trip, he was summoned to an off-the-books meeting inside the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence (SSCI) secure compartmented information facility (SCIF). Present in the vault were highly credentialed long-time colleagues, along with roughly a dozen to eighteen senior staff members representing key leaders including Senators Marco Rubio and Mark Warner.
As the participants reviewed the multi-decade history of legacy unacknowledged programs over several hours, the briefers abruptly turned to the Senate staffers, gestured toward Grusch, and named specific individuals who had actively plotted to kill him. Grusch personally recognized the names of the accused actors. When Rogan presses on why elements within the government would escalate to lethal plots, Grusch points out that while certain classified presidential findings grant broad latitude to protect critical national security secrets, rogue actors likely believed he was about to blow the program open via his formal complaint to the Intelligence Community Inspector General (ICIG). Grusch confirms that an active Department of Justice investigation remains ongoing regarding the threats against his life, limiting what he can publicly disclose.
- Summoned to an off-the-record SSCI SCIF meeting attended by 12–18 senior staffers representing Senators Marco Rubio, Mark Warner, and others.
- Briefers identified specific, named individuals within the program apparatus who had conspired to murder Grusch.
- Highlights that specific historic presidential findings are exploited to shield unauthorized activities under the guise of national security.
- Confirms an active, ongoing Department of Justice law enforcement investigation into the lethal threats made against him.
The segment concludes with a programmatic promotional read for AG1, detailing its daily nutritional powder formulated with over 75 vitamins, minerals, and adaptogens to support gut health and fill dietary gaps. The spot also highlights AG1 Pro, noting its inclusion of CaHMB, zinc carnosine, and five grams of Creavitalis German-manufactured creatine monohydrate.
[20:06](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=1206s) Threats, Intimidation, and Whiskey in the SCIF
Joe asks Grusch to break down how much of the ongoing secrecy stems from genuine UAP disclosure versus a systemic lack of oversight that allowed rogue actors to carry out illegal activities. Grusch explains that a faction of "problem children" abused standing security options—authorizations originally intended to safeguard domestic critical infrastructure, such as Air Force flight lines and ICBM silos—and weaponized them to target him after deeming him an internal threat. Having served as an Air Force field-grade officer and a GS-15 civilian (the CIA colonel equivalent), Grusch describes sitting inside Senate chambers and hearing the specifics of these retaliatory measures, an experience he describes as deeply disgusting and alarming.
The threat against Grusch's life was severe enough to shake seasoned congressional staff. During a high-level briefing inside a SCIF (Sensitive Compartmented Information Facility), a very senior Senate staffer was so rattled by what was uncovered that he walked back to his personal office, grabbed a bottle of whiskey, and brought it back so the team could drink together in disbelief. Grusch recalls the staff asking each other if these actors were truly serious: "they literally were thinking about killing fucking Dave." While Grusch notes that an intervention successfully put a "kibosh" on the plot—earning the people who stopped it his lifelong gratitude—surveillance and tracking efforts against him and other whistleblowers continued in the weeks that followed.
- **Standing options abused:** Security protocols designed to protect ICBM missile silos and Air Force flight lines were repurposed to target internal whistleblowers.
- **Grusch's rank & credentials:** Grusch was an active Air Force field-grade officer and GS-15 civilian (O-6 / Colonel equivalent).
- **SCIF incident:** A senior Senate staffer retrieved whiskey to drink inside the SCIF after learning actors were actively considering assassinating Grusch.
- **Ongoing harassment:** Grusch and his colleagues discovered tracking devices and physical surveillance deployed against them even after meetings with congressional staff.
---
[22:38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=1358s) Trump's Disclosure Push and "Ontological Shock"
Turning to scheduling logistics, Rogan notes that their interview had previously been delayed by canceled flights, but Grusch considers the postponement fortuitous because developments are now accelerating rapidly. Grusch believes the Trump administration is taking the UAP subject seriously and praises Donald Trump's willingness to order the government to declassify and release all historical materials. When Joe asks whether Trump is facing physical danger for pushing the issue, Grusch clarifies that the real hurdle is the political and cultural courage required to guide humanity through the resulting "ontological shock" and public outrage. Grusch compares the prospective reveal to post-9/11 America, suggesting that while the initial realization will carry fear, it could ultimately serve as a unifying panacea across political divides.
Grusch firmly predicts that full disclosure will happen before Donald Trump's term concludes. When Joe asks what that specifically looks like, Grusch reiterates his formal congressional testimony: the United States government has long recovered intact and semi-intact craft, retrieved non-human biological intelligence (NHI or ultraterrestrials) piloting those vehicles, and maintained active reverse-engineering programs. However, Grusch cautions against expecting an immediate "Indiana Jones warehouse tour," stressing that managing disclosure requires delicate care because the ecosystem involves peer adversaries who run competing crash retrieval programs, non-human entities whose intentions must be managed, and sensitive national security technologies derived from these recoveries.
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: Grusch's Overview of the UAP Ecosystem
accDescr: Flowchart illustrating the components of the UAP recovery ecosystem, strategic derived technologies, and external friction points.
subgraph Applications["Strategic National Security"]
Inspiration["Technological Inspiration\ne.g., Frequency Selective Surfaces"]
Defense["Aerospace & Defense Applications"]
RevEng --> Inspiration --> Defense
end
subgraph Complexities["Collateral Factors & Roadblocks"]
Adversaries["Foreign Adversarial Programs"]
Allies["Diplomatic & Vatican Repercussions"]
Entities["Risk of Third-Party NHI Reaction"]
end
Program -.-> Complexities
```
---
[25:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=1503s) Reverse Engineering and the Fear of a "Ghostbusters Moment"
Clarifying how reverse engineering works in practice, Grusch dispels the notion that scientists simply picked up alien hardware and figured it out directly like unlocking an iPhone. Instead, he explains that much of the progress has come via scientific inspiration. Material scientists might analyze an exotic metamaterial, identify an unusual frequency-selective surface property, and realize that a human-made analogue could be manufactured for modern aerospace applications. While some direct functional breakthroughs may have occurred, Grusch indicates that secondary technological inspiration represents the bulk of the derived hardware.
When Rogan asks what is holding up immediate disclosure, Grusch identifies major geopolitical and metaphysical considerations. Crossing the threshold into full disclosure creates immediate diplomatic ripple effects: foreign adversaries operating their own covert crash-retrieval programs would face sudden domestic pressure, while religious institutions like the Vatican—which Grusch notes has quietly studied the phenomenon for centuries—would have to address theological upheaval. Furthermore, Grusch cites past government think-tank assessments delivered to previous presidents, which warned that sudden global disclosure might provoke an unpredictable, overt reaction from the entities themselves—a scenario Grusch describes as a potential "Ghostbusters moment."
- **Engineering through inspiration:** Breakthroughs often occur by observing anomalous physical traits (such as frequency-selective surfaces) rather than straightforward one-to-one reverse engineering.
- **Diplomatic fallout:** A public U.S. acknowledgment forces adversaries to account for their own secret programs and alters global strategic parity.
- **Theological distress:** The Vatican and other major religious bodies hold historical data but have stayed quiet to avoid spiritual panic.
- **Entity reaction:** Official government reports have studied whether open human awareness could provoke an overt third-party response from the non-human intelligences.
---
[27:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=1634s) Stephen Miller, Bureaucratic Roadblocks, and the "Fellow Alpha" Jab
Grusch emphasizes that even high-level administration officials are running into institutional roadblocks. He points to Representative Tim Burchett’s recent appearance on Benny Johnson's podcast, where Burchett recounted a phone call from Stephen Miller detailing how Miller was being physically blocked from gaining access to classified UAP programs. Grusch praises Miller’s tenacity behind the scenes, describing him as an aggressive "pitbull" and an "alpha dog." Grusch then remarks, "and as a fellow alpha, I do appreciate his—", which causes Joe to instantly burst out laughing and cut him off:
> **Joe Rogan:** "That's a silly thing to say. You know that, right?"
> **David Grusch:** "What?"
> **Joe Rogan:** "A fellow alpha."
> **David Grusch:** "Fellow alpha."
> **Joe Rogan:** "Opens yourself up to like tremendous amounts of ridicule."
> **David Grusch:** "Yeah, I know. I know. I mean, nobody's perfect and I know everybody has their faults, but I do appreciate the fervency he is attacking the issue behind the scenes..."
Joe then corroborates Miller's personal focus on the issue, recounting a brief interaction he had with Miller during a White House UFC event. Joe explains that the moment they met, Miller brought up the topic unprompted, stating plainly, "The UFO thing is going to come out." Grusch stresses that despite his own naturally cynical and pessimistic nature, he remains confident that the entrenched secrecy will break down. He notes that the gatekeepers within the deep state will ultimately be forced to yield to executive orders, pointing to high-ranking intelligence leadership—including the Principal Deputy Director of National Intelligence (PDDNI)—issuing broad NDA waivers to clear the path for personnel to testify.
[29:56](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=1796s) The 1952 Blue Book Recording and Deep State Resistance
Shortly before departing Representative Eric Burlison’s congressional office, David Grusch helped uncover a still-classified 1952 recording from Project Blue Book. The archival audio documented the military's deep concern over anomalous craft operating around sensitive nuclear installations and Southwestern test and training ranges. Grusch points out that modern military aviators encounter the exact same phenomena in those very locations today, including spherical orbs that actively accost military helicopters—encounters the executive branch still refuses to openly detail.
When asked if Donald Trump is encountering resistance within the intelligence apparatus, Grusch confirms that both the president and officials like Christopher Miller face pushback. Drawing on his own background as a "former deep stater," Grusch explains the entrenched administrative culture: career national security officials harbor an innate disdain for political appointees and members of Congress, viewing them as transient actors who lack the required "reverence" and cannot be trusted with sensitive information. This mentality has long been used to justify keeping "waived programs" completely hidden from legislative oversight.
According to Grusch, very few presidents were ever fully integrated into the program’s core. Former CIA Director George H.W. Bush was fully read in, and former Vice President Dick Cheney operated effectively as "the mob boss" heading the enterprise for years. What the current administration is facing is a classic "cat's paw" bureaucratic game—the intelligence community releasing minor tranches of low-hanging fruit to test how the White House manages the narrative. Grusch emphasizes that if Trump enforces his executive orders and pushes disclosure forward before the 2028 election, establishing a continuity handoff for his successor, "he’s going to be the GOAT. He’s going to be a legend," overshadowing foreign policy disputes and securing a permanent historical legacy.
- **1952 Project Blue Book Recording**: Documents early military concern over anomalous objects buzzing Southwestern nuclear infrastructure and test ranges.
- **Modern Encounters**: Military test ranges continue to report unexplained orbs accosting helicopters.
- **Key Historic Figures**: George H.W. Bush (via his CIA tenure) and Dick Cheney were deeply entrenched in managing the program.
---
[32:55](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=1975s) Acclimatization Schedules and the Great Power Race
Addressing whether disclosure will unfold slowly, Grusch notes that historical government think-tank assessments prepared for past administrations outlined an intentional "anesthetization and climatization process." The objective was to normalize the subject matter gradually, letting public anxiety cool before presenting the most jarring revelations. While Grusch is now speaking strictly as a private citizen outside the planning loop, he stresses that an agonizingly slow timeline is fraught with modern operational risk.
Human factors, insider whistleblowers, and foreign adversarial advances make a protracted rollout hazardous. Grusch argues that any controlled disclosure must be executed within roughly twelve months to prevent adversaries from seizing the narrative. Both China and Russia could exploit American hesitation to project strength or reveal their own findings first.
China, in particular, has pursued parallel initiatives under its broader strategic posture. Grusch notes that back in June 2020, around the time the Department of Defense formally established its UAP Task Force, the *South China Morning Post* reported that the Chinese military operated its own dedicated task force utilizing artificial intelligence to track and analyze anomalous aerial encounters.
---
[34:34](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=2074s) "Donations", Trojan Horses, and Technology Control Loops
Rogan asks whether China has recovered craft of its own, and Grusch confirms the existence of foreign parallel crash retrieval programs. Rogan brings up the perspective shared by religious studies scholar Diana Pasulka and Stanford immunologist Dr. Garry Nolan, who suggest that some retrieved non-human craft may not be crash casualties at all, but rather intentional "donations." Grusch corroborates the baseline premise, acknowledging historical retrieval operations involving pristine craft that landed cleanly without showing any signs of mechanical failure or impact damage.
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: Non-Human Intelligence Deployment Theories
accDescr: Comparison between the benign uplift theory and the predatory Trojan horse control loop theory.
subgraph Benevolent ["Uplift Theory"]
A["Intact Craft Delivery"] --> B["'Gorilla & Banana' Test"]
B --> C["Technological Inspiration"]
end
subgraph Skeptical ["Strategic Counterintelligence Theory"]
D["Intact Craft Delivery"] --> E["Trojan Horse Technology"]
E --> F["Human Civilizational Addiction"]
F --> G["Permanent Control Loop & Dependency"]
end
```
Grusch approaches the "donation" hypothesis from the perspective of a seasoned intelligence officer. While an optimistic view posits that an advanced intelligence is simply throwing humanity a metaphorical banana to see if the gorilla can peel it and gain technological inspiration, he warns of a darker counterintelligence possibility:
> "Is this a Trojan horse? Do you want us to figure things out and then get addicted to a certain type of technology, and then that creates a control loop where they start handling us—whether we need raw resources to maintain a certain technology, or as in this intelligence... whatever this is, this non-human intelligence?"
Grusch admits he does not know the exact statistical distribution of recoveries worldwide or whether the United States holds a disproportionate share, though historical records confirm numerous retrievals on American soil.
---
[36:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=2186s) The 1971 Accident Measures Agreement and Secret Redlines
When Rogan asks whether rival world superpowers secretly communicate about the phenomenon, Grusch explains that a high-level "gentleman's agreement" has existed since the Cold War. Specifically, Article 3 of the 1971 Agreement on Measures to Reduce the Risk of Outbreak of Nuclear War (commonly referred to as the Accident Measures Agreement), signed between the United States and the Soviet Union in September 1971, explicitly accounts for unidentified aerial phenomena.
Under Article 3, both nations formally agreed to notify each other immediately if unidentified objects were detected near their early warning radars, critical communications nodes, or nuclear missile sites, ensuring an anomalous intrusion would not trigger an accidental nuclear launch. In 2013, the secret annex to that treaty was declassified and hosted by George Washington University’s National Security Archive. The annex revealed specific nuclear-flash teletype codes—such as "Adam 222" and "Adam 333"—used over the direct Washington-Moscow hotline to inform the Kremlin: "Hey, we see weird [expletive] around place X, it's not us, it's not a false flag."
By contrast, Grusch notes a glaring, dangerous gap in modern diplomacy: the United States has never had a mutual launch notification treaty with China. Even today, China is under no treaty obligation to notify the U.S. when conducting submarine-launched ballistic missile (SLBM) tests off its coast. This forces organizations like North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD), U.S. Northern Command (USNORTHCOM), and the Defense Special Missile and Astronautics Center (DEFSMAC) in Laurel, Maryland, to remain on continuous high alert to verify whether an unannounced Chinese launch is merely a test.
---
[38:25](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=2305s) The March 2019 Indian ASAT Test and NRO Scramble
To illustrate the extreme operational chaos created by unannounced launches, Grusch shares a declassified anecdote from his time serving on watch as a reservist backup Director of Intelligence at the National Reconnaissance Office (NRO) Operations Center, where he handled the President's Daily Brief (PDB) team.
In March 2019, India conducted an unannounced anti-satellite (ASAT) missile test, intentionally destroying one of its own defunct weather satellites in low Earth orbit. Because the Indian government provided no prior notification, the NRO operations center erupted into an immediate crisis:
> "I remember in my office, I had like all these different phones. I'm like calling the embassy, all this. I'm like, 'What the [expletive],' you know? And because we were worried at the NRO about the debris, because we fly space spy satellites. That's the mission of the National Reconnaissance Office."
Grusch had to sprint down to the watch floor, directing orbital analysts surrounded by banks of monitors to calculate the expanding kinetic debris cloud to determine whether American national reconnaissance satellites needed to execute emergency avoidance maneuvers, before running in full uniform up to the NRO director's office to deliver an urgent briefing.
[39:37](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=2377s) Foreign Access and the Giant Craft Rumor
Joe Rogan asks whether other nations besides the United States, Russia, and China possess or have access to retrieved craft. David Grusch confirms that other countries do, but immediately declines to name them publicly, noting that identifying specific allied or foreign nations treads into extremely sensitive, classified territory. Rogan then brings up one of the most prominent rumors circulating within the UFO community: the legend that a retrieved craft was so unimaginably massive that retrieval teams were physically unable to transport it, forcing them to construct an entire permanent facility over the crash site, allegedly located in South Korea.
When pressed on whether he is aware of the story, Grusch smiles and admits he has heard the rumor online, playfully deflecting further inquiries by suggesting the public should leave those questions to the federal government.
---
[40:31](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=2431s) Grusch's Origin Story: An Intel Officer with Zero Woo
Rogan asks Grusch whether he has ever had any firsthand paranormal or extraterrestrial encounters himself. Grusch explains that, unlike many prominent figures in ufology who point to a pivotal childhood sighting or encounter, he has had absolutely zero personal experiences with the phenomenon. Despite being an amateur astronomer since middle school around age twelve or thirteen and holding an undergraduate degree in physics, he has never witnessed anything unexplainable in the night sky beyond occasional ordinary satellite passes. He stresses that he has never experienced any "spooky woo stuff" or personal visitations.
Grusch describes himself as a child of the 1980s and 1990s whose curiosity was fueled by popular science fiction and astrophysics—growing up watching *The X-Files* and *Star Trek: The Next Generation*, reading Carl Sagan, Isaac Asimov, and Stephen Hawking’s *A Brief History of Time*, and studying the Drake equation. When he entered the intelligence community, he admits he did what nearly every new intelligence officer secretly does: sitting down at a classified terminal and searching terms like "Area 51" and "UFO" in sensitive databases, which turned up nothing.
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: Evolution of Grusch's UAP Awareness
accDescr: Diagram tracing Grusch from reading classified physics papers to joining the UAP Task Force.
subgraph Early["Early Intel Career (2009-2016)"]
A["Reads AAWSAP DIRDs on cloaking & propulsion"] --> B["Unknowingly uses intel architecture to track UAP"]
B --> C["Analyst reports round objects airbrushed from imagery"]
end
subgraph Transition["Recruitment & Inquiries (2016-2017)"]
D["Weird 'Smoking Man' recruitment overture"] --> E["Spring 2017: Briefs CIA Deputy Director staff"]
E --> F["CIA senior official inquires about Pentagon UFO programs"]
end
subgraph TaskForce["Formal Assignment (2018-2019)"]
G["TTSA & public revelations spark professional interest"] --> H["Early 2019: Appointed NRO representative to UAPTF"]
end
Early --> Transition
Transition --> TaskForce
```
His professional collision with the subject happened gradually and without his full awareness:
- **Defense Intelligence Reference Documents (DIRDs):** Around 2009, Grusch came across technical papers commissioned under the Defense Intelligence Agency's AAWSAP (Advanced Aerospace Weapon System Applications Program) investigating theoretical concepts like magnetohydrodynamic propulsion and advanced cloaking, though he did not initially understand their true operational purpose.
- **Dual-Use Collection Architecture:** Years later, Grusch discovered that certain top-secret intelligence programs he had worked on were actually tracking UAPs. The government deliberately repurposed existing national security surveillance and collection architectures to support the crash retrieval mission rather than building a redundant, separate infrastructure.
- **Airbrushed Imagery:** About a decade into his career, imagery analysts privately mentioned being instructed to airbrush round anomalous objects out of satellite photos.
- **The "Smoking Man" Recruitment:** Grusch underwent a strange, year-long recruitment evaluation for a program adjacent to the crash retrieval effort, being promised bizarre access before the recruitment quietly evaporated.
- **The 2017 CIA Encounter:** While briefing the CIA Deputy Director's staff on classified DoD programs in spring 2017, the chief of a sensitive agency office pulled Grusch aside to ask what he knew about rumored Pentagon UFO programs. Grusch held access to hundreds of special programs across the DoD and IC at the time, but knew nothing about it.
- **UAP Task Force Appointment:** After Tom DeLonge's To the Stars Academy (TTSA) helped bring the subject into the public spotlight in late 2017, Grusch transitioned from passive professional curiosity to operational involvement, being formally assigned in early 2019 as the National Reconnaissance Office (NRO) representative to the Navy task force that evolved into the DoD UAP Task Force.
---
[45:05](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=2705s) The 2004 Disclosure Assessment and Defense Contracting Fraud
The conversation shifts to a pivotal November 2004 meeting involving Dr. Harold "Hal" Puthoff and various prominent thinkers, convened during the George W. Bush administration to analyze the pros and cons of full government UAP disclosure. Grusch confirms that he verified the meeting took place with other attendees, noting that it was reportedly sponsored by National Security Advisor Stephen Hadley and held at a federally funded research and development center (FFRDC) in Northern Virginia. While the Pentagon's All-domain Anomaly Resolution Office (AARO) dismissed the meeting in its Volume 1 historical report as merely an informal "hypothetical scenario," Grusch points out the obvious contradiction: the government does not dedicate high-level resources to calculate hypothetical impacts for a phenomenon that does not exist.
At this 2004 symposium, attendees used an analytical computer model to assign weighted numerical scores across multiple domains regarding the societal, scientific, and geopolitical impact of going public. Nearly every single category scored net-negative, solidifying the government's decision to maintain strict secrecy.
Grusch explains that the primary deterrent against disclosure was not societal panic or "ontological thought shock"—the fear that religious institutions or everyday citizens could not cope with the reality of non-human intelligence—but cold, pragmatic legal liability stemming from decades of federal contracting violations:
- **DFARS Violations:** For decades, a select handful of legacy aerospace defense contractors were granted sole-source contracts and exclusive physical access to retrieved materials under Justification and Approval (J&A) national security carve-outs.
- **Unfair Commercial Advantage:** Legacy contractors used internal research and development (IRAD) funds to study and reverse-engineer exotic hardware, subsequently patenting technological breakthroughs and selling them back to the federal government for massive profits while small- and mid-tier defense contractors were entirely shut out.
- **Catastrophic Financial Liability:** Revealing this arrangement would trigger historic federal court challenges reaching the Supreme Court under the Defense Federal Acquisition Regulation Supplement (DFARS), leaving the United States government potentially liable for billions of dollars in commercial damages.
- **Innovation Stagnation vs. China:** The extreme compartmentalization created acute brain drain and groupthink within the American defense industrial base. In contrast, authoritarian regimes like China face no congressional oversight, contracting integrity laws, or misappropriation-of-funds rules; the Chinese Communist Party openly pulls top talent directly from universities (such as Nanjing University) directly into state programs.
- **Opportunity for Reform:** Grusch emphasizes that future leadership will have to untangle this corrupt contractual landscape, arguing that declassifying foundational, non-sensitive physics to allow open research in academia could unleash an unprecedented "golden era of innovation" for the American economy.
[48:51](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=2931s) Amnesty Programs, Legal Immunity, and the Threat to Grusch's Life
Joe Rogan brings up the documentary *The Age of Disclosure*, highlighting its argument that getting the truth out will require an amnesty program to shield legacy program participants from civil and criminal liability. David Grusch agrees with the concept, favoring "use immunity" for specific testimony. Rogan qualifies this immediately, arguing immunity should never shield individuals who committed serious crimes. Grusch addresses this tension directly, noting that people from the defense intelligence ecosystem are watching the interview. He stresses that while the overwhelming majority of people involved have been honorable, patriotic Americans, a small faction engaged in "unspeakable things."
Grusch recounts how this faction targeted him: "I mean, how they wanted to fucking kill me. This is like—it's disturbing, and you wonder why I had to become a whistleblower. I didn't want to do this shit, but like I was pushed over the edge to do that." He clarifies that while standard criminal misconduct must be resolved professionally through the American judicial system rather than "street justice," his investigation into these criminal elements reached intense personal extremes. At times, he had to conduct investigative meetings wearing body armor, accompanied by colleagues who were also armed and "rolling heavy."
To resolve the broader institutional gridlock, Grusch advocates for an approach modeled on the post-apartheid Truth and Reconciliation Commission (TRC) in South Africa during the 1990s. While acknowledging it as a drastic simplification, he notes that individuals could confess their crimes, receive reconciliation, and allow the nation to move forward. He points out that many of his friends currently running UAP programs are fundamentally good people trapped in an impossible legal vice, having signed paperwork warning that unauthorized disclosure is punishable by life imprisonment at Fort Leavenworth or capital punishment for treason.
- **Immunity Framework**: Supports use immunity for specific disclosures rather than blanket pardons for violent acts.
- **Personal Risk**: Grusch had to attend investigative meetings heavily armed and wearing body armor due to active death threats.
- **South African Model**: Advocates a Truth and Reconciliation Commission (TRC) to balance accountability with institutional disclosure.
- **Legacy Enforcers**: Program personnel face the threat of treason charges, life imprisonment at Fort Leavenworth, or execution.
---
[50:55](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=3055s) Sentient Plasmoids, MHD Drives, and Theories of Consciousness
Rogan steers the conversation toward the core phenomena, asking what these entities are and what capabilities they possess. Grusch explains that the intelligence community and researchers are likely dealing with two distinct domains: physical craft and non-physical manifestations. When discussing unexplained "orbs," Grusch raises the hypothesis of sentient plasmoids—plasma structures exhibiting consciousness. He notes this could represent an intelligence projecting a "plasmoidic probe" through a wormhole into our spacetime continuum, referencing open-source academic papers exploring plasma-based life.
Alternatively, Grusch points out that an orb could simply be a physical craft enveloped in an ionized plasma sheath generated by its propulsion system. He cites an Advanced Aerospace Weapon System Applications Program (AAWSAP) Defense Intelligence Reference Document (DIRD) on magnetohydrodynamic (MHD) propulsion. Much like the fictional "Caterpillar Drive" in *The Hunt for Red October*, an air-breathing MHD propulsion system utilizes magnetic fields and electric currents to manipulate atmospheric plasma via the Lorentz force, naturally creating an incandescent plasma aura that conceals the physical craft underneath.
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: Explanatory Hypotheses for UAP Orbs
accDescr: Flowchart illustrating the dual theories for UAP orbs as either conscious plasma entities or physical craft enveloped in propulsion plasma.
subgraph PlasmoidTheory["Sentient Plasmoid Hypothesis"]
A["Non-Physical Intelligence"] --> B["Wormhole Projection"]
B --> C["Plasmoidic Probe / Living Plasma"]
end
subgraph MHDTheory["Physical Magnetohydrodynamic (MHD) Hypothesis"]
D["Physical Solid Craft"] --> E["High-Voltage / Magnetic Field Generation"]
E --> F["Atmospheric Ionization via Lorentz Force"]
F --> G["Enveloping Plasma Sheath"]
end
```
When Rogan asks if non-corporeal plasma represents the apex of conscious evolution, Grusch turns to theories of mind. He highlights the Orchestrated Objective Reduction (Orch-OR) theory formulated by Nobel laureate Roger Penrose and anesthesiologist Stuart Hameroff, with whom Grusch has spoken. Orch-OR posits that consciousness arises from quantum computations occurring in room-temperature microtubules within brain neurons, allowing quantum wave functions to collapse independently of an outside observer. Grusch favors this framework because it offers a plausible physical mechanism for non-local quantum entanglement, telepathy, and anomalies like remote viewing.
- **Non-Physical Phenomenon**: Academic assessments suggest certain orbs may be sentient, coherent plasma phenomena.
- **MHD Propulsion**: Defense Intelligence Reference Documents analyze how Lorentz-force propulsion creates a plasma envelope around physical craft.
- **Penrose-Hameroff Orch-OR**: Microtubules in neurons collapse quantum wave functions, providing a theoretical foundation for non-local consciousness.
---
[54:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=3286s) Recovered Craft Taxonomy, Extraterrestrial Origins, and Biological Cadavers
Turning to physical hardware, Grusch confirms that the crash retrieval programs possess physical craft spanning diverse shapes: Tic Tacs, spheres, eggs, distinct disc types, "boot heels," sunfish-shaped hulls, boomerangs, and crescent moons. Grusch likens this variety to human vehicle manufacturing, noting how distinct consumers might prefer a Porsche 911 over a Ford Mustang; recurring geometries reflect distinct propulsion architectures and different technological origins. He explains that these craft correspond to a nuanced taxonomy of entities, where different species or factions utilize specific craft types.
```mermaid
flowchart LR
accTitle: Taxonomy of Observed UAP Geometries
accDescr: Categorization of recovered physical craft morphologies into standard and exotic airframe groupings.
When pressed on where these non-human intelligences (NHI) originate, Grusch admits he was never granted definitive access to their origin points. Drawing on his background as a counterintelligence and human intelligence (HUMINT) officer, he warns that even if an NHI claimed to come from a specific star system, verifying that claim is exceedingly difficult because the communication could be a deliberate denial-and-deception operation. While the extraterrestrial hypothesis explains part of the phenomenon, ultraterrestrial hypotheses and long-term terrestrial co-existence remain viable.
Grusch notes that the biological entities recovered are unsettlingly similar to humans, raising profound questions about whether they are bioengineered, represent a divergent evolutionary offshoot from humanity, or utilize biological mimicry. He confirms that the legacy programs conducted direct comparative genomic sequencing on non-human biological samples and cadavers. When Rogan asks if physical cadavers are real, Grusch unequivocally affirms: "Oh, 100%. Yeah... I know that for sure." When asked how he knows, Grusch reveals he was granted access to audiovisual evidence of these biological materials, though he limits further details to protect his inside sources.
- **Observed Hull Shapes**: Confirmed physical hulls include Tic Tacs, eggs, various discs, boot heels, sunfish-like profiles, boomerangs, and crescent shapes.
- **Intelligence Skepticism**: Grusch treats entity claims regarding star systems with skepticism, citing military denial-and-deception doctrine.
- **Genomic Sequencing**: Programs compared recovered non-human cadaver genomes against the human genome.
- **Audiovisual Proof**: Grusch's confirmation of physical cadavers is based on compartmentalized audiovisual recordings he reviewed directly during his investigation.
- **Personal Sacrifices**: Ongoing whistleblower retaliation forced Grusch to resign his Air Force commission early, losing his pending promotion to lieutenant colonel and ongoing pension benefits while petitioning the Air Force review board for relief.
[58:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=3528s) Contemporary Crash Retrieval Footage and Non-Human Cadavers
David Grusch reveals that during his investigation, he reviewed clear, contemporary video footage documenting a retrieval operation of a crash site where dead cadavers were lying on the ground. When Joe Rogan presses him on the timeline, Grusch declines to give exact dates or details to protect the specific operation and the patriotic personnel involved, though he stresses that it is modern footage rather than grainy 1950s black-and-white film. Given the rapid rise of generative tools like OpenAI's Sora, Grusch explains that he was deeply suspicious of potential deception, disinformation, or "limited hangouts." Consequently, he tasked out intelligence collection requests to independently verify the event across multiple disparate sources and methods, sitting on the material for years before concluding it was authentic.
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: Intelligence Verification Workflow for Retrieved UAP Video
accDescr: Flowchart illustrating how Grusch collected, vetted, and cross-referenced crash retrieval video footage to rule out fabrication.
subgraph INTAKE["1. Information Intake"]
A["Contemporary Retrieval Video"] --> B["Crash site & cadaver imagery"]
end
subgraph VETTING["2. Verification Process"]
B --> C["Task Collection Across Independent Channels"]
C --> D["Screen for AI Deception / CGI (e.g., Sora)"]
D --> E["Cross-reference Multi-source Intelligence"]
end
subgraph CONCLUSION["3. Operational Assessment"]
E --> F["Corroborated Event & Material Reality"]
F --> G["Multi-Year Hold to Prevent Source Exposure"]
end
```
When Rogan asks what the beings looked like, Grusch describes them as remarkably human-like, extraordinarily "beautiful," and striking in appearance. Rather than resembling stereotypical pop-culture extraterrestrials, they had pale, bluish-white, almost albino skin and long, grayish hair. The video captured a camera panning across the terrain during recovery operations rather than lingering on close-ups, showing three or four bodies on the ground dressed in form-fitting outfits. Grusch notes their gender appeared somewhat amorphous during the brief pass, yet their striking features immediately brought to mind historical and mythological archetypes.
- The footage captured a modern retrieval operation showing at least three to four humanoid bodies lying on the ground.
- Grusch describes the skin tone as pale, albino-like, and bluish-white, distinct from typical drowning discoloration.
- The beings had long, grayish hair and wore tight, form-fitting suits.
- The camera did not linger exclusively on the bodies, as retrieval personnel on-site were focused on their recovery duties.
- Standard protocol for recovered biological material involves placing the specimens into specialized preservation status or deep freeze for scientific analysis.
---
[01:00:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=3632s) General McCaslin, Greek Gods, and Mysterious Disappearances
Grusch connects the aesthetic of the recovered beings to comments previously made by retired Major General William N. McCaslin. As documented in discussions involving Tom DeLonge, McCaslin had repeatedly hinted that anyone seeking to understand the phenomenon should "think of the Greek gods." Grusch reflects that seeing the footage gave him an unsettling perspective on what McCaslin meant. The discussion takes a darker turn as Grusch recounts the bizarre disappearance of McCaslin, who walked away from his residence in Albuquerque without his cell phone, leaving behind personal effects—though missing a firearm—just prior to a planned trip with eighteen friends. The incident occurred in close temporal proximity to high-level UAP declassification orders, prompting widespread concern within the investigative and defense community.
While Rogan asks about patterns of scientists and researchers vanishing around advanced propulsion or materials programs, Grusch cautions against conflating unrelated tragedies with government conspiracies, noting that rumors surrounding an Air Force Research Laboratory (AFRL) researcher may have been overstated. However, Grusch highlights the deeply troubling loss of his close active-duty Air Force colleague, Matthew Sullivan (callsign "Quake"). Sullivan was read into the program and served as one of Grusch's direct sources before dying under circumstances that remain subject to an open investigation.
- Major General William N. McCaslin vanished from Albuquerque after purchasing supplies at REI for an upcoming group trip, leaving his phone at home while a personal firearm went missing.
- McCaslin's public advice to Tom DeLonge to study the "Greek gods" aligns closely with Grusch’s visual description of the human-like, aesthetically striking occupants.
- Matthew "Quake" Sullivan, a trusted Air Force peer of Grusch and a verified program insider, passed away under unresolved circumstances that Grusch classifies as an open matter.
- Grusch maintains that uncritical claims about large numbers of disappearing scientists risk exaggerating unrelated defense community suicides and accidents.
---
[01:03:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=3825s) Disclosure Strategy and the Public Trust Deficit
Looking ahead toward disclosure, Grusch and Rogan discuss what kind of evidence will be required to persuade a skeptical public. Grusch argues that releasing audiovisual footage alone will not suffice because public trust in institutional authorities is at an all-time low, and cynical observers would easily dismiss high-definition video as government-manufactured CGI or psychological operations. To achieve genuine transparency, Grusch asserts that the executive branch must mandate the physical roll-out of tangible artifacts.
Grusch envisions displaying recovered exotic craft in public institutions such as the Smithsonian’s National Air and Space Museum Steven F. Udvar-Hazy Center. He emphasizes that biological tissue samples must not remain sequestered within classified military silos or handed to single private figures, but instead subjected to open, peer-reviewed, multi-institutional scientific analysis. Rogan and Grusch agree that establishing independent protocols outside direct government oversight is the only mechanism that will provide undeniable confirmation to the scientific community and humanity as a whole.
- Grusch contends that pure video releases will fail to satisfy the public due to widespread distrust in official government narratives.
- The proposed standard for true disclosure involves putting physical craft on public display (such as at the Udvar-Hazy Center) alongside chain-of-custody biological samples.
- Grusch urges citizens to petition executive leadership directly to sustain the momentum for full declassification and institutional accountability.
[01:07:43](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=4063s) Speculation on Human Origins, Genetic Engineering, and Breakaway Civilizations
The discussion opens on the uncanny appearance of certain beings, prompting Joe Rogan to ask why figures like the ancient Greek gods were traditionally depicted as so remarkably beautiful. David Grusch speculates about the possibility of a "breakaway human civilization" or even an advanced terrestrial civilization that predates recorded history. Rogan notes that public interest is increasingly shifting in this direction, especially given megalithic structures found across the globe and anomalous discoveries beneath the Egyptian pyramids. Grusch mentions that he casually follows researchers like Graham Hancock and Randall Carlson, admitting he harbors serious questions about whether some of these beings are an offshoot of humanity or bioengineered. Grusch argues that if an extraterrestrial species developed completely naturally off-planet, the odds of them being an absolute "dead ringer" for human beings makes very little evolutionary sense.
Rogan points out that the physical resemblance makes total sense if humanity itself was engineered, referencing in-depth conversations he had with Bob Lazar, who firmly believes that humans are the product of deliberate genetic manipulation. Grusch acknowledges this possibility, emphasizing that if verified, it would force an existential reckoning about what it truly means to be human, challenging concepts of human sovereignty. Rogan reflects on the psychological paradox of human belief: people readily accept that an omnipotent God created humanity out of nothing, yet the notion that super-intelligent, godlike beings from another world visited and genetically manipulated us provokes deep discomfort. Grusch shares that one of his biggest personal regrets from his investigation was failing to obtain direct access to the biological assessment reports; he explains that so many "spears" were being thrown at him and he was in such literal physical danger that he was unable to secure those specific medical documents.
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: Hypotheses on Humanoid NHI Origins
accDescr: Three speculative explanations discussed for why some non-human intelligence closely resembles humans.
A["Humanoid Non-Human Intelligence (NHI)"] --> B["Breakaway / Ancient Civilization"]
A --> C["Direct Genetic Manipulation"]
A --> D["Bioengineered Avatars"]
B --> E["Lost pre-cataclysmic human advanced tech"]
C --> F["Humanity engineered by external intelligences"]
D --> G["Engineered forms designed for lower ontological shock"]
```
[01:09:55](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=4195s) Firsthand Encounters with Non-Human Biologics and Live Entities
When Rogan asks if Grusch has spoken with anyone who actually examined the retrieved biological specimens, Grusch clarifies that while he did not speak directly with the laboratory scientists analyzing the autopsied bodies, close personal friends of his served on physical crash retrieval teams. These friends personally witnessed the recovered beings, and Grusch spent time comparing notes with them regarding craft shapes, physical appearances, and crash circumstances. Rogan asks whether the descriptions varied, and Grusch confirms they did, revealing that some of his intelligence colleagues even encountered live entities post-crash.
When Rogan asks whether the living entities resembled the "Greek god" humanoids, Grusch reluctantly admits they encountered beings straight out of pop culture lore: both reptilian-looking entities and the classic "grays." He points to the 1994 Ariel School mass sighting in Ruwa, Zimbabwe—which occurred near a uranium mine—where dozens of schoolchildren reported seeing small gray beings emerge from a lenticular disc-shaped craft. Rogan brings up the film *Contact*, noting the scene where the extraterrestrial intelligence appears to Jodie Foster’s character in the form of her deceased father so she can emotionally process the encounter. Grusch agrees with the parallel, suggesting that if these beings are bioengineered, taking on a familiar or humanoid form may be an intentional strategy to facilitate communication, ease contact, and minimize "ontological shock" for humans.
Grusch adds that while the general public will have to figure out how to process this reality, he personally approaches the concept with calm curiosity, comparing the phenomenon to quirky extended family: "It's like my West Virginia cousins... different part of the family, but I'm cool with them."
- **Ariel School Incident (1994):** Cited by Grusch as a prominent, credible example of a mass-witness sighting of classic gray entities emerging from a lenticular disc near a Zimbabwean uranium mine.
- **Access Limits:** Grusch’s knowledge of live entities comes from debriefing retrieval team members rather than the medical pathologists performing laboratory autopsies.
[01:12:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=4341s) The Burden of Secrecy, Sky Conflicts, and Craft Typology
Rogan argues forcefully against the secrecy surrounding these programs, calling it fundamentally wrong for a small cabal of unelected bureaucrats and private defense contractors to maintain a monopoly on reality while the public operates with an entirely distorted worldview. Grusch agrees, lamenting decades of official lies and wondering how far human society might have advanced had transparency been embraced during the 1950s, 60s, or 70s. Grusch reflects on his unexpected role as a whistleblower, stating that despite being an Air Force major and a senior intelligence civilian who confirmed these secrets with officials at the absolute highest levels of government, he was ultimately "just a dude" who was pushed to the brink by relentless institutional duress until going public was his only recourse.
Turning back to the live reptilian encounters, Rogan asks why these advanced crafts seem to crash so frequently. Grusch reveals that some crashes result from active conflict between different factions of Non-Human Intelligence (NHI): "NHI versus NHI." Rogan draws a comparison to the ancient Hindu epics—such as the *Mahabharata*, the *Bhagavad Gita*, and Vedic descriptions of sky battles involving distinct beings. Grusch confirms that intelligence records document non-human factions fighting with one another. Discussing the physical condition of the entities, they observe that post-mortem changes occur just as they do in humans; entities appear darker while alive and their physical affect changes dramatically as they struggle and expire.
Finally, Rogan presses for details on the specific craft designs associated with the different entity types:
- **"Greek God" / Tall White Humanoids:** Typically associated with boomerang or crescent-moon-shaped craft—humorously compared by Grusch to drivers who prefer a "Porsche 911." Grusch describes these entities as roughly human-sized or taller, though exact scale was hard to judge without a direct ground reference.
- **Reptilian Entities:** Reportedly associated with the smooth, capsule-like "Tic Tac" craft, a revelation Rogan reacts to with uneasy humor ("Uh oh... the reptilian ones are the ones that everyone's terrified of"). Grusch cautions that while craft assignments are not absolute, his intelligence sourcing strongly links the Tic Tac configuration to that specific group.
[01:16:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=4595s) Human Bias, Reptilian Entities, and Cognitive Dissonance
The conversation centers on the danger of viewing non-human intelligence (NHI) actions strictly through an anthropocentric lens. A creature's aggression may simply be a captive animal lashing out under duress or undergoing an emotional crisis rather than acting out of pure malice. Joe Rogan presses David Grusch on what the alleged "reptilians" actually look like. Grusch emphasizes that while he has never seen one in person, a trusted colleague described them as over seven feet tall, resembling a massive gorilla covered in scaly, reptilian hide. Grusch notes there are multiple varieties, some of which appear far more humanoid. Rogan tries pulling up artist renderings of a "gorilla with scales," prompting Grusch to acknowledge how surreal and absurd it feels to discuss these topics publicly.
Grusch remarks that speaking about reptilians on the podcast sounds completely unhinged coming from an ex-intelligence officer: "I cannot fucking believe I'm talking about this shit on Joe Rogan." He jokes that listeners might initially consider him crazy, only to be vindicated far down the road. Grusch reflects that having grown up without any paranormal or "woo" encounters, confronting the phenomenon causes him real cognitive dissonance; relying on high-level audio-visual evidence and witness testimonies can still feel like watching a movie rather than experiencing reality. When Rogan asks if viewing that classified video required entering a secret, secure room, Grusch admits the circumstances were intentionally kept "sketchy" to protect everyone involved.
[01:18:49](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=4729s) Documented NHI Conflict, Crash Retrievals, and Retaliation
Rogan asks whether the intelligence community has documented warfare between different NHI factions. Grusch confirms that intelligence collection has observed what appears to be conflict, noting it walks and talks like warfare, even if humanity does not fully comprehend the underlying motives. Grusch reveals that one crash involving a Tic Tac-shaped craft operated by reptilian entities also contained dead Grays at the site, suggesting a violent exchange between the species.
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: Reported Crash Dynamics and Blowback
accDescr: Inter-species NHI conflict leads to craft crashes and downstream whistleblower risks.
subgraph Conflict["Reported Encounter"]
A["Adversarial Conflict<br/>(Reptilians vs. Grays)"] --> B["Crash Incident<br/>(Tic Tac craft wedged in ground)"]
B --> C["Retrieval Evidence<br/>(Dead Grays and Reptilian craft)"]
end
subgraph Whistleblower["Impact on Witnesses"]
C --> D["Informants Face Threats"]
D --> E["Grusch Comes Forward<br/>(Protective Umbrella)"]
D --> F["Tragic & Mysterious Losses<br/>(e.g., Friend Matt)"]
end
```
Grusch declines to offer overly specific details on that particular retrieval to avoid exposing sources, stating that informants have risked their lives and faced direct physical threats. He explains that his decision to testify publicly was an effort to "take it for the team," creating a protective umbrella of public exposure for the individuals feeding him evidence. He somberly notes the cost involved, referencing his friend Matt, who died under mysterious and tragic circumstances after coming forward with sensitive information. Grusch estimates there have been at least a dozen or two crashes tied to adversarial inter-NHI engagements.
- Grusch estimates roughly a dozen to two dozen crashes have resulted from adversarial NHI conflict.
- The retrieved craft associated with the reptilian encounter was described as Tic Tac-shaped and wedged into the ground upon impact.
- Retaliation against whistleblowers remains severe; Grusch stepped into the public eye to give his informants a layer of safety.
[01:20:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=4848s) Nuclear Testing, VASCO Archival Plates, and Archaeological Digs
Rogan shifts the discussion to whether high-altitude nuclear detonations during the 1950s damaged or brought down unsuspecting craft. Grusch declines to elaborate, stating that operational impacts involve sensitive U.S. defensive capabilities and technical vulnerabilities that the government must address in its own time. They transition to discussing the VASCO project, led by Beatriz Villarroel, which analyzed pre-Sputnik photographic glass plates from astronomical observatories taken before human satellites were in orbit.
The archival plates captured reflective, non-static, metallic-looking transiting objects beyond the atmosphere, showing a pronounced chronological correlation with early nuclear weapons testing. Historical data revealed that unidentified flashes or points of light were 68% more likely to be photographed within 24 hours of an atomic detonation, such as Operation Starfish Prime. Grusch and Rogan discuss how splitting the atom seemingly served as a beacon for NHI, echoing Jacques Vallée's research in *Passport to Magonia* showing interactions stretching deep into antiquity. Rogan jokes that this inflection point is why the rooms at the Comedy Mothership are named "Fat Man" and "Little Boy," prompting Grusch to mention the mockups of those original bombs and historic aircraft displayed at the National Museum of the U.S. Air Force in Dayton, Ohio. Rogan then brings up Bob Lazar's claims that certain recovered crafts were unearthed at archaeological sites, which Grusch confirms is a genuine phenomenon within crash retrieval history. Rogan points to the underground labyrinth at Hawara, Egypt—originally chronicled by Herodotus as surpassing the Pyramids of Giza and recently imaged by ground-penetrating radar—as an example of ancient hidden infrastructure that Egyptian authorities remain hesitant to excavate fully.
[01:25:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=5113s) The Egyptian Labyrinth, "Dippy", and Subterranean Tomography
Joe Rogan and David Grusch discuss the subterranean labyrinth in Egypt, which became flooded after a dam was constructed during the 1960s to divert water for agriculture, inadvertently shifting the local water table. Using non-invasive survey methods such as ground-penetrating radar and satellite radio tomography, researchers identified complex subterranean pathways and an anomalous, forty-meter-long metallic object situated within a massive underground atrium. Rogan evokes the film *Stargate* starring Kurt Russell, wondering whether ancient inhabitants encountered an extraterrestrial craft, formed a cargo cult around it, and erected an elaborate temple complex to enshrine it. Preliminary scans suggest the object’s composition does not register as iron, steel, or copper, remaining completely unidentified.
Grusch agrees that ancient civilizations likely operated as cargo cults around advanced visitors, noting that while this enters sensitive theological territory, it remains a compelling hypothesis. Rogan reads an excerpt describing the central object, nicknamed "Dippy" after the famous *Diplodocus* cast in London's Natural History Museum Hintze Hall. The structure resembles a giant Tic Tac, an upright disc, or a colossal *shen* ring—the ancient Egyptian hieroglyphic symbol representing eternal protection and cyclical creation. Rogan highlights artistic reconstructions of the underground chambers, pointing out that while the historian Herodotus documented the labyrinth thousands of years ago and explorers probed upper levels in the 1800s, modern imaging now verifies deep chambers under Egypt's flooded water table. He also points to the work of researcher Filippo Biondi, whose satellite radio tomography scans indicate deep structures extending over a kilometer beneath the pyramids of Giza.
- **Dam Construction and Flooding**: 1960s agricultural dam projects raised the regional water table, submerging the subterranean labyrinth.
- **The "Dippy" Anomaly**: A 40-meter-long metallic object inside an underground hall, possessing a non-standard metal signature and resembling a Tic Tac mint or Egyptian *shen* ring.
- **Deep Tomography**: Independent radar tomography work by Filippo Biondi suggests structural subterranean anomalies extending more than one kilometer below Giza.
---
[01:28:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=5301s) The King's Chamber Sarcophagus, Tourism, and Megalithic Precision
Grusch asks whether subterranean sites are accessible to researchers or if they are continually blocked by the Egyptian Ministry of Tourism and Antiquities. Rogan notes there has been tentative progress and optimism surrounding new permits, emphasizing that major discoveries would provide a massive economic boon to Egyptian tourism. The conversation pivots to esoteric experiences within the Great Pyramid. Grusch mentions hearing accounts from colleagues regarding the King’s Chamber and its perfectly carved granite box, which purportedly shares dimensions with the biblical Ark of the Covenant. People routinely pay guards off-hours bribes to lie inside the sarcophagus, reporting intense, transcendental sensations. Rogan jokes about paying twenty thousand dollars just to sleep overnight in the stone coffer.
Moving beyond mysticism, Rogan and Grusch reflect on the sheer architectural and mathematical precision of ancient megalithic sites. Attributing these feats to civilizations using primitive tools 4,500 years ago strains credulity, leading many researchers to believe the structures are far older. Grusch mentions following Graham Hancock's work on older-than-expected megaliths across Turkey, as well as synthetic aperture radar scans revealing hidden ancient earthworks and pyramid structures in Ohio and Mississippi. Grusch concludes that modern humanity barely understands its own timeline, predicting an inevitable, wholesale rewriting of both ancient and modern human history.
- **King's Chamber Resonances**: A precision-honed granite coffer matching the dimensions of the Ark of the Covenant, frequently sought out for off-hours transcendental meditation.
- **Megalithic Anomalies**: Construction symmetry and scale that confound conventional archaeological timelines across Giza, Baalbek in Lebanon, and Gobekli Tepe in Turkey.
- **North American Earthworks**: Synthetic aperture radar uncovering sophisticated ancient mounds and pyramid-like earthworks across the Mississippi and Ohio River valleys.
---
[01:30:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=5452s) The Book of Enoch, Ancient Watchers, and Biblical Sanitation Codes
The discussion transitions into religious literature and ancient texts after Rogan recounts a conversation with Representative Anna Paulina Luna, who urged him to read the apocryphal Book of Enoch. Rogan was stunned by its contents, which were preserved among the Dead Sea Scrolls at Qumran but omitted from the canonical biblical canon at assemblies like the Council of Nicaea because they clashed with traditional Torah orthodoxy. The text explicitly describes the "Watchers"—angelic beings who descended from the heavens, mated with human women, and sired a race of giants.
Grusch, reflecting on his Catholic upbringing (CCD and confirmation), addresses the contemporary argument from Christian exorcists who label UFOs and non-human intelligence (NHI) as pure demonic deception. While Grusch acknowledges that entities perceived as "demons" may represent a specific, malevolent class of anomalous intelligence, he cautions against writing off the entire NHI ecosystem as diabolical. He also observes that ancient texts often conceal advanced knowledge under religious metaphors. For example, Leviticus and Deuteronomy mandate rigorous cleansing rituals and sanitary separation of latrines from living quarters long before the microscope revealed bacteria and viruses in the nineteenth century. Rogan and Grusch debate whether such scriptures reflect guidance from a higher intelligence or the surviving oral traditions of an advanced, pre-cataclysmic human civilization whose technical wisdom outlived its collapse. The segment concludes with Rogan referencing the Book of Ezekiel, a perennial touchstone for UFO researchers due to its vivid depiction of flying wheels and fiery, radiant clouds.
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: Ancient Origins and Modern Interpretations of NHI
accDescr: Diagram illustrating alternative hypotheses for anomalous artifacts and biblical accounts.
subgraph Theological ["Theological / Demonic View"]
B --> C["Diabolic Deception"]
C --> D["Entities categorized strictly as malevolent/demons"]
end
subgraph NHI ["Anomalous Intelligence View (Grusch)"]
B --> E["Non-Human Intelligence (NHI)"]
E --> F["Diverse ecosystem of visitors"]
F --> G["Historical interactions form cargo cults & texts"]
end
subgraph Cataclysm ["Lost Pre-Cataclysm Civilization (Rogan)"]
B --> H["High Ancient Human Civilization"]
H --> I["Cataclysm wipes out infrastructure"]
I --> J["Scientific survival tips turn to religious rites"]
end
```
- **The Book of Enoch**: Apocryphal text found at Qumran describing the Watchers and Nephilim; left out of biblical canon due to incompatibility with mainstream scripture.
- **Demonic Hypothesis vs. Diverse NHI**: Grusch rejects the sweeping theological assertion that all anomalous phenomena are demonic deceptions, viewing "demons" as potentially one specific subclass of non-human entities.
- **Embedded Health Codes**: Mosaic laws in Leviticus and Deuteronomy outlining advanced quarantine and waste-disposal measures thousands of years prior to germ theory.
- **Ezekiel’s Vision**: The iconic Old Testament description of a fiery whirlwind, cloud of fire, and interlocking wheel structures interpreted by ufologists as technological encounters.
[01:34:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=5654s) Ancient Encounters, Ezekiel’s Vision, and the Reality of Myth
Joe Rogan and David Grusch examine ancient accounts through the lens of modern unidentified anomalous phenomena (UAP), beginning with the biblical Book of Ezekiel. Rogan recites the imagery of gleaming metal emerging from fire, four living creatures darting to and fro like flashes of lightning, and wheels intersecting within wheels, pointing out that ancient witnesses were describing what sounds unmistakably like a high-powered craft touching down and terrifying onlookers. Grusch agrees, noting that ancient people could only frame anomalous events through the vernacular, imagery, and cultural concepts available in their era. Recalling a trip to Capitol Reef National Park in Utah two years prior, Grusch mentions viewing petroglyphs that bear an eerie resemblance to modern depictions of aliens. While acknowledging rock art interpretation is outside his technical expertise, he suggests many ancient traditions, from indigenous petroglyphs to ancient Sumerian accounts of the Anunnaki, represent literal observations rather than allegories or creative fiction—particularly because widespread illiteracy meant people had little incentive to compose elaborate fictional narratives rather than recording pivotal history.
The conversation turns to classical mythology and historical first contacts. Rogan notes the parallels between reported non-human entities and descriptions of Greek gods, referencing disclosures where figures such as Major General William Neil McCasland reportedly hinted at similar connections to Tom DeLonge. Rogan points out that finding physical craft containing beings matching historical depictions of gods mirrors the way indigenous populations in the 1500s viewed Spanish Conquistadors: bearded, Caucasian men arriving on horses with incomprehensible technology were instantly interpreted through divine or mythological frameworks.
- Rogan highlights biblical descriptions in Ezekiel, including the "wheel within a wheel", gleaming metal, living entities moving like lightning, and the cloud/manna machine.
- Grusch cites petroglyphs at Capitol Reef National Park in Utah as potential historical records of physical encounters.
- Historical parallels are drawn between ancient mythological deities, UAP occupants, and the 16th-century indigenous encounters with Spanish Conquistadors.
---
[01:36:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=5795s) The Strategy for Disclosure, Bigelow, and Congressional Interrogatories
Grusch admits that discussing biological entities and their historical parallels is the most uncomfortable topic for him, yet it is essential for the public to begin processing this reality. Rogan asks whether the government follows a deliberate schedule to trickle out information slowly so society can adjust without shock. Grusch states that while past proposals suggested phased rollouts, he is uncertain of current plans. However, he highlights that aerospace entrepreneur Robert Bigelow met with Donald Trump in February 2026 to urge him to make a semi-formal announcement acknowledging non-human intelligence (NHI) and recovered materials in order to begin "anesthetizing the public"—an effort Bigelow openly discussed in an interview with George Knapp.
Grusch emphasizes that advancing transparency has required a broad collective effort. While operating discreetly behind closed doors, Grusch worked closely with Representative Eric Burlison, praising him as one of the most courageous and forward-leaning members of Congress on UAP issues alongside Representatives Anna Paulina Luna and Tim Burchett. Under Burlison, congressional inquiries moved beyond rhetoric into formal oversight mechanisms. Their efforts forced the public release of a previously classified 1952 Lincoln Laboratory film in a recent document tranche. Furthermore, they issued formal legal interrogatories requiring sworn affidavit responses, including a public inquiry served to the MITRE Corporation, a federally funded research and development center in Northern Virginia whose corporate counsel was required to formally respond.
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: Congressional Oversight and Document Pressure Strategy
accDescr: Flowchart showing how congressional inquiries led to declassified releases and formal legal interrogatories to defense contractors.
subgraph Oversight["Congressional Pressure"]
A["Rep. Eric Burlison & Staff"] --> B["Formal Oversight Letters"]
A --> C["Legal Interrogatories (Affidavit Format)"]
end
subgraph Actions["Agency & Corporate Targets"]
B --> D["Lincoln Laboratory Release<br/>(1952 Classified Film Tranche)"]
C --> E["MITRE Corporation<br/>(Corporate Counsel Mandated Response)"]
end
subgraph Strategy["Executive Coordination"]
F["Steven Miller & Pursuit Team"] -.-> E
G["Robert Bigelow Outreach to Executive Branch"] -.-> F
end
```
- Robert Bigelow met with Donald Trump in February 2026, advising an initial public admission of NHI and retrieved craft to gradually acclimate the public.
- Representative Eric Burlison's office secured the release of a formerly classified 1952 Lincoln Laboratory film.
- Formal legal interrogatories requiring responses under affidavit were served to the MITRE Corporation, a Northern Virginia-based federally funded research and development center (FFRDC).
---
[01:39:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=5972s) Telepathy and Psychotronic Craft Countermeasures
Rogan circles back to an account Grusch previously shared regarding an encounter involving living reptilian entities alongside deceased gray-type beings, asking whether the recovery personnel engaged in direct communication with the reptilians. Grusch replies that he does not recall any report of direct dialogue during that specific event. However, he explains that consciousness-based or telepathic interactions are widely reported across the crash retrieval program. Having addressed the subject previously on *Dr. Phil*, Grusch stresses that sober, high-ranking military and intelligence officers with whom he served for fifteen years have recounted experiencing telepathic communication or sudden, intense waves of emotion washing over them during retrievals.
Grusch shares his personal hypothesis regarding the peaceful, calming feelings personnel often describe when approaching these craft. Rather than genuine benevolence, he suspects this sensation may function as an engineered "psychotronic" defense mechanism—a craft-based countermeasure analogous to electronic jammers, flares, or chaff deployed by Air Force fighter jets. By inducing an artificial, anesthetizing sense of tranquility and peace, the craft can placate approaching humans, neutralizing aggression and preventing recovery teams from attacking vulnerable occupants. Grusch notes that recovery personnel have occasionally felt these overwhelming sensations even when no living occupants were present in the craft, reinforcing his hypothesis that the effect is an active technological countermeasure rather than organic telepathic communication.
- High-ranking military personnel with over a decade of service have reported telepathic and consciousness-based phenomena during retrievals.
- Grusch hypothesizes that sudden waves of euphoria or profound calm during craft recoveries are technological countermeasures ("psychotronics") designed to placate threats.
- Personnel have reported experiencing these placating emotional fields even in the complete absence of living biological occupants.
---
[01:41:38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=6098s) Entity Taxonomies: Grays, Tall Whites, and Biological Drones
Rogan asks whether telepathic abilities are restricted to specific non-human biological types or shared across different species, mentioning public reports attributing telepathy to grays, "tall whites," and Nordic-type entities. Grusch acknowledges that these accounts exist widely in public lore and within internal discussions, though he notes that verifying the comprehensive scope of these abilities across every species reaches the boundary of what he can speak to with high confidence.
The discussion narrows to the morphology and hierarchy of the gray entities. Grusch explains that internal program discussions describe three or four distinct subtypes of grays exhibiting varying statures, distinct facial features, and differing affects. Rogan raises the prevailing hypothesis within the UAP research community: the smaller, diminutive grays may be manufactured biological androids, drones, or automated workers, while the taller, thin grays function as the commanding figures directing operations. Grusch confirms that this specific theory—that smaller grays serve as synthetic or biological drones overseen by taller counterparts—is an active hypothesis openly debated behind the scenes within the legacy retrieval programs.
- Telepathic communication is reported in accounts involving gray entities, tall whites, and Nordics.
- Programs distinguish between three to four distinct morphological subtypes of gray-type entities.
- Classified program personnel actively hypothesize that smaller gray entities represent bio-synthetic drones or androids overseen by taller entities.
[01:43:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=6180s) Artificial Superintelligence and Inadvertent Disclosure
Joe Rogan and David Grusch consider the inevitable rise of non-biological life forms, noting that humanity is effectively already creating silicon-based non-human intelligence through artificial intelligence. Grusch raises a provocative hypothesis: if Artificial Superintelligence (ASI) comes online in the near future and is granted broad access to aggregate data—spanning global optical sensor feeds, medical databases, and genomic initiatives like the Stargate project associated with Larry Ellison and the Trump administration—it could trigger disclosure before the federal government has an opportunity to do so. Just as systems developed by OpenAI have tackled complex mathematical problems, an unfettered ASI could comb through historical archives, spot inconsistencies in cover stories, flag denial and deception operations, and piece together the reality of covert crash retrieval programs.
Grusch stresses that this timeline pressure is a major national security concern. Beyond the risk of a foreign adversary accelerating disclosure to posture as a "messianic truth bearer," there is an imminent chance that private Big Tech companies running superintelligent models will stumble upon classified US reverse-engineering programs. When Rogan asks how an AI could access definitive proof without hacking classified vaults, Grusch explains that an advanced model would not need direct leaks; it could infer the truth by synthesizing public records, sensor discrepancies, and anomalous historical gaps that expose the fabrication of official cover narratives.
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: ASI Inadvertent UAP Disclosure Pathway
accDescr: Flowchart illustrating how Artificial Superintelligence could deduce covert UAP programs from disparate data sources.
subgraph DataInputs ["Disparate Data Ingestion"]
A["Optical Sensing & Satellites"]
B["Genomic & Medical Records"]
C["Historical Public Archives"]
end
A --> D
B --> D
C --> E
D --> F
E --> F
F --> G
```
- Grusch warns that Big Tech unintentionally uncovering classified domestic hardware presents a major national security issue "near and dear" to his heart.
- Advanced pattern recognition could detect that specific historical events were manufactured as cover stories for recovered non-human craft.
---
[01:44:59](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=6299s) Reptilian Phenotypes and the Peruvian Mummies
The conversation pivots to reported alien morphologies, contrasting the tall "Nordic Greek god" entities with reptilian beings. Rogan asks whether multiple reptilian phenotypes exist, and Grusch confirms that encounter reports describe distinct subtypes, though the origins of these variations remain unexplained. The two banter about how post-disclosure pop culture will look, imagining future generations hanging posters of non-human entities on their bedroom walls right alongside classic supercars like the Lamborghini Countach. Rogan brings up classic abduction lore, including the landmark 1961 Betty and Barney Hill case and the 1990s research of Dr. Karla Turner, while Jamie pulls up user-generated artwork from Reddit depicting a muscular reptilian figure standing in hospital scrubs with a tailored opening for its tail.
```
"You're going to have NHI fan art all over the place and Lamborghini Countach on the wall."
```
From sketches, the discussion turns to the physical specimens discovered in Peru, commonly referred to as the Nazca mummies. Rogan and Grusch acknowledge the deep divide in public opinion: while certain specimens appear crudely fabricated, other examined bodies exhibit complex internal anatomy. Rogan notes that tomographic CT scans and MRIs on the larger specimens show continuous skeletal joints with no apparent signs of adhesives or seam lines. While biological skeptics argue that the foot structures defy standard human anatomy and point to a hoax, Rogan counters that an actual non-human organism would naturally not adhere to terrestrial mammalian biomechanics. Both agree that definitive answers depend on ongoing, transparent genetic and DNA sequencing.
- The Betty and Barney Hill encounter and Dr. Karla Turner's extensive 1990s abduction case studies remain key historical touchstones for anomalous entity reports.
- Rogan highlights that while amateur grave-robber provenance taints the Peruvian specimens, imaging scans have baffled medical observers due to intact articular joints and absence of glue or assembly marks.
---
[01:47:36](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=6456s) Nazca Iconography and Elongated Paracas Skulls
Rogan highlights that Peru's physical oddities are mirrored in its ancient cultural iconography. Ancient Peruvian tapestries, ceramics, and textiles dating back millennia frequently portray three-fingered and three-toed (tridactyl) humanoid figures. The conversation touches on the Nazca lines, with Rogan noting that machine learning and AI surveying tools recently mapped 303 previously unnoticed geoglyphs etched into the desert floor. This leads directly into the enigma of the elongated Paracas skulls discovered along the Peruvian coast.
```
"Head-binding doesn't increase the capacity. It just flattens out the shape. That's a weird fucking head, man."
```
Rogan stresses a critical anatomical point often misunderstood in mainstream archaeology: while artificial cranial deformation (cranial binding) was practiced across the ancient world to flatten or elongate human heads, it cannot increase the total intracranial volume. By contrast, several Peruvian skulls possess an internal cranial capacity estimated at 20 to 30 percent larger than modern humans, alongside a complete absence of the standard human sagittal suture. Grusch and Rogan contemplate the neurological implications, musing that equivalent synaptic density inside a skull that large would confer staggering intellectual or potentially telepathic abilities. Rogan notes an anecdote from a friend who recently traveled to Peru to inspect the specimens, only to find several key skulls absent or removed from view. They conclude by discussing whether such traits represent a lost offshoot of hominids or isolated genetic mutations, drawing a comparison to the Vadoma tribe of Zimbabwe, who carry an inherited genetic condition resulting in two-toed "ostrich feet."
- AI-assisted aerial analysis identified 303 newly discovered Nazca lines in the Peruvian desert.
- Anomalous Paracas skulls display a 20% to 30% expansion in brain vault volume and lack a human sagittal suture, ruling out simple binding or mechanical flattening alone.
- Rogan references the Vadoma people of Africa (ectrodactyly) as an example of how distinct, non-standard anatomical traits can become concentrated within isolated populations.
[01:51:23](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=6683s) Genetic Anomalies: From the "Ostrich-Footed" Tribe to Cranial Variations
Joe Rogan and David Grusch examine anomalous anatomical variations found in human populations, bringing up photographic evidence of the "ostrich-footed" Vadoma tribe of Zimbabwe. Rogan points out how ectrodactyly manifests across multiple generations within this isolated gene pool, where individuals possess two severely elongated, splayed digits rather than five standard toes. As they inspect additional photographs showing similar developmental divergence in the hands, Rogan draws a parallel to contested archaeological remains: if an isolated, hereditary condition can radically transform foot and hand structure without external intervention, extreme cranial elongations and enlarged skull anomalies could theoretically represent extreme genetic variations rather than extraterrestrial biology.
- **Vadoma Tribe ("Ostrich-Footed People"):** A documented hereditary condition (ectrodactyly) prevalent in the Zambezi River valley of Zimbabwe, resulting in the absence of middle digits and inward-turned outer toes.
- **Cranial Comparison:** Rogan highlights that distinct structural divergences in the human genome demonstrate how dramatic skull shapes might easily be dismissed as anomalies rather than separate lineages.
---
[01:52:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=6765s) Reptilian Beings and Ancient Earth Hypotheses
The conversation shifts toward the taxonomy of non-human entities reported within intelligence circles and disclosure communities. Rogan enumerates the frequently cited categories—small grays, tall grays, and reptilians—and asks Grusch what intelligence reports indicate. Grusch concedes that while he reaches the limits of his "high confidence knowledge" on reptilian entities, circulating accounts consistently describe them as distinctly humanoid yet reptilian, standing upwards of seven feet tall. While noting the irony that giant bipedal reptiles sound like the most outlandish fringe conspiracy theories, Grusch acknowledges that persistent reports exist within classified channels, though he emphasizes that he has not personally laid eyes on physical evidence of that specific phenotype.
Rogan explores whether intelligent reptiles could have arisen natively on Earth millions of years ago, invoking the concept of an ancient pre-human civilization—often discussed in science as the Silurian hypothesis. Given that modern science has fossilized only a microscopic fraction of the life forms that lived alongside the dinosaurs over a 100-million-year epoch, Rogan suggests that a sophisticated bipedal reptile civilization with cultural cremation or advanced corpse disposal practices would leave virtually no discoverable fossil record. Grusch acknowledges the possibility, questioning whether such entities originated from an ancient terrestrial genomic stockpile, arrived from an external star system, or represent engineered constructs adapted specifically to Earth.
---
[01:54:34](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=6874s) Proof Beyond Black Projects: The Ruppelt Recording and White Sands Trackings
Grusch pushes back forcefully against the skepticism that UAP are merely covers for advanced domestic black budget aerospace projects. Drawing a sharp distinction between public commentators like Elon Musk and those with genuine compartmented security access, Grusch states: "Unlike Elon Musk, I actually had all those clearances." While acknowledging rare instances where witnesses inadvertently saw classified U.S. technology—matters he treats with strict national security deference—Grusch stresses that the phenomenon long predates the Cold War. Historical flight performance characteristics systematically eliminate modern human aviation.
To substantiate this, Grusch cites an internal, declassified 1952 audio recording secured from MIT Lincoln Laboratory by Representative Eric Burlison. On the recording, Edward Ruppelt—the first director of Project Blue Book, who later grew disillusioned by official duplicity—briefed the Beacon Hill study team. Ruppelt explicitly affirmed that the Air Force had ruled out mass hysteria and foreign adversary programs, citing radar and optical tracking of unidentified objects clocked at speeds exceeding 3,500 miles per hour near White Sands Proving Ground and Holloman Air Force Base.
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: Historical Trajectory of UAP Deception
accDescr: Diagram tracing radar-confirmed phenomena through Air Force study to public obfuscation policy.
subgraph InternalEvaluation ["Internal Scientific Assessment (1952)"]
C["Edward Ruppelt Briefs<br/>Beacon Hill Study Group (MIT Lincoln Lab)"]
D["Systematically Rules Out<br/>Mass Hysteria & Soviet Programs"]
end
[01:56:43](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=7003s) Crash Retrievals, Biological Exploitation, and Convergent Evolution
Grusch outlines the operational logic of military intelligence regarding anomalous encounters. Pointing to contemporary interactions where anomalous orbs harass military assets—investigated jointly by the Office of the Director of National Intelligence (ODNI) and defense agencies—Grusch notes that passive observation was never the end state. Once national security apparatuses confirmed that non-human hardware was operating in sovereign airspace, active acquisition and material exploitation were mandatory:
> "You think the federal government just passively studied it? 'Oh, we did a secret Blue Book and we were just like, you know, imaging stuff.' No, baby, we're doing for material exploitation and acquisition. We're going to go get some of this shit when we get a chance when... there's a mission failure or one crashes or lands."
Once crash retrievals are recognized as standard operational reality, Grusch explains, the recovery of associated biological material becomes an unavoidable consequence. He recognizes that accepting non-human biological remains is an immense cognitive leap for the public, far more jarring than identifying unknown species in the ocean depths or the Congo Basin. The most perplexing scientific mystery remains their apparent morphological similarity to terrestrial life: bilateral symmetry and bipedal layouts. Grusch questions whether these beings represent convergent extraterrestrial evolution, native lineages, or autonomous, bio-engineered probes built specifically to operate within Earth's biosphere.
---
[01:59:11](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=7151s) Project Blue Book as a Facade: The Robertson Panel and Australian Declassifications
Project Blue Book was never intended to function as an objective public scientific inquiry, Grusch explains; it was established primarily as an obfuscation program. As empirical verification, Grusch points to an unredacted, formerly secret 1971 document authored by Harry Turner, the nuclear branch chief for the Australian Joint Intelligence Organisation (JIO)—Australia’s counterpart to the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA).
Turner, who maintained top-secret clearance and close liaisons with the CIA and U.S. military apparatus, documented in pages 7 through 18 of a report preserved in the Australian National Archives that Project Blue Book served purely as a public facade. Behind closed doors, the U.S. Air Force was deeply concerned by the technology and sought to exploit it. Following the CIA-sponsored Robertson Panel of January 1953, official policy deliberately weaponized public ridicule and disinformation to minimize domestic panic and prevent the Soviet Union from utilizing the phenomenon as a psychological warfare tool. Grusch emphasizes that these findings are fully accessible in official Commonwealth archives for anyone willing to trace the primary documentary record.
[02:00:24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=7224s) Early UFO Investigators: Harry Turner, Hynek, and Blue Book
David Grusch explains the historical perspective of Harry Turner, an Australian nuclear physicist and intelligence consultant who in 1971 analyzed decades of UFO data from the late 1940s onward. Turner traveled to the United States, met extensively with the CIA, and pieced together what he believed was an orchestrated cover-up from an external ally's viewpoint. Joe Rogan connects Turner's findings to the trajectory of Dr. J. Allen Hynek, the scientific consultant to the Air Force’s Project Blue Book. Hynek originally served to debunk sightings by attributing them to natural phenomena like ball lightning, meteor showers, or swamp gas and the planet Venus, only to conclude after years of official study that the phenomenon was genuinely anomalous, eventually becoming a dedicated independent UFO researcher.
Grusch acknowledges that early pioneers like Hynek, Donald Keyhoe, and atmospheric physicist Dr. James McDonald laid the groundwork for modern UAP research. Grusch admits he only familiarized himself with these legendary figures relatively recently, having avoided UFO lore until his intelligence duties compelled him to realize the physical phenomenon was legitimate.
- **Harry Turner (1971):** Australian defense scientist who documented the U.S. government's historical pattern of secrecy after consulting with CIA officials.
- **Dr. J. Allen Hynek:** Project Blue Book lead scientific investigator who transitioned from chief debunker to prominent advocate for genuine UAP research.
- **Early Researchers:** Donald Keyhoe (NICAP) and atmospheric physicist Dr. James McDonald were pivotal mid-century figures challenging official explanations.
---
[02:01:38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=7298s) The Nixon Era, Jackie Gleason, and Aborted Disclosure
Rogan brings up the legendary folklore of President Richard Nixon allegedly taking comedian Jackie Gleason to an Air Force base to view alien remains. While Grusch cannot verify the truth of that specific encounter, he notes Nixon had extensive knowledge of the subject and possessed the exact temperament to pull off such an act. Rogan highlights Gleason's lifelong obsession with flying saucers, noting Gleason went so far as to build a UFO-shaped compound in upstate New York featuring saucer-style architecture.
Grusch brings up documentarian Robert Emenegger, who was approached during the Nixon administration with promises of authentic military footage depicting a landing at Holloman Air Force Base, with the MacArthur Foundation reportedly serving as an intermediary cutout between the White House and the filmmakers. Grusch reveals that an intelligence assessment prepared for Nixon warned that public disclosure would cause catastrophic social panic and disruption. Shortly after that evaluation, the Watergate scandal erupted, abruptly extinguishing any executive push toward transparency.
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: Nixon Administration Disclosure Effort
accDescr: Flowchart illustrating the Nixon White House disclosure initiative and its collapse following an adverse threat assessment and Watergate.
subgraph WhiteHouse["Executive Branch"]
A["Nixon White House"] --> B["Commissioned Threat Assessment"]
B --> C["Finding: Disclosure would cause absolute chaos"]
end
subgraph MediaCutout["Media Initiative"]
A --> D["MacArthur Foundation Cutout"]
D --> E["Robert Emenegger Documentary Project"]
E -.->|"Promised Holloman AFB Landing Footage"| F["Project Shelved"]
end
C --> G["Watergate Scandal Breaks"]
G --> F
```
---
[02:03:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=7420s) Prepping the Battlespace: Podesta, DeLonge, and the 2016 Campaign
The discussion shifts to modern executive pushes for transparency. Grusch contrasts past efforts with Donald Trump’s overt public demands to declassify records, while highlighting how close the political establishment came to disclosure ahead of the 2016 presidential election. Prior to that election, Hillary Clinton publicly pledged that she would review and release UFO files. Behind the scenes, campaign chairman John Podesta authorized what Grusch describes as an "acclimatization" or "popularization" effort to prepare the public mind.
Leaked WikiLeaks emails confirmed that Blink-182 musician Tom DeLonge was granted direct high-level briefings with figures such as Major General William Neil McCaslin and Lockheed Martin executive Robert Weiss. Grusch explains that these senior defense figures did not engage DeLonge out of rock-star infatuation, but because they had received high-level clearance and top cover—bolstered by figures like former Director of National Intelligence James Clapper—to use DeLonge’s youth reach to "prep the battlespace." When Clinton lost the election to Trump, the institutional apparatus collapsed, prompting the unraveling of To The Stars Academy's (TTSA) initial government-interfaced agenda. Rogan questions whether such disclosure rhetoric is merely cynical electioneering; Grusch agrees it carries political utility for midterms or upcoming presidential cycles, but emphasizes that the underlying government intelligence is entirely factual.
- **2016 Clinton Campaign:** Public promises by Hillary Clinton coincided with behind-the-scenes efforts led by John Podesta to initiate public conditioning.
- **Tom DeLonge's Network:** WikiLeaks correspondence verified DeLonge held meetings with Maj. Gen. McCaslin (Air Force Materiel Command) and Robert Weiss (Skunk Works).
- **TTSA Collapse:** Donald Trump's unexpected 2016 victory severed the planned pipeline, scattering the original intelligence and defense coalition backing To The Stars Academy.
---
[02:05:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=7546s) Entity Typologies: Grays, Nordics, and Insectoid Rumors
Rogan lists the non-human intelligence profiles reported throughout lore: small grays, tall grays, reptilians, and Nordic or Greek-god phenotypes, before asking Grusch whether insectoid or mantis-type entities are documented within the classified programs. Grusch confirms that official programs possess detailed data distinguishing humanoids ranging from identical-to-human to clearly non-human forms. Regarding mantis or insectoid creatures, Grusch notes he has only encountered informal "water cooler talk" within high-level channels rather than high-confidence documentation.
Grusch clarifies that he never received full operational access to an all-inclusive catalog or organizational chart specifying the precise number of non-human species interacting with Earth. While broad categories and entities were referenced in passing during sensitive discussions—including classified sessions within Senate chambers—he cannot confirm whether the true number of distinct species numbers ten, twenty, or more.
---
[02:07:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=7634s) Lethal Confrontation: The Shooting of Surviving Reptilians
Rogan presses Grusch on the fate of living reptilian entities recovered from crash sites discussed in classified briefings. Grusch reveals that the recovered reptilians were mortal and were ultimately killed by American personnel. Rogan reacts with shock, questioning the wisdom of shooting extraterrestrial beings instead of attempting communication or letting them call for extraction.
Grusch admits the situation sounds completely outlandish, acknowledging that "even though I know what I know... it still hurts my head." However, he maintains under oath that these discussions occurred within the government's most restricted SCIFs. According to the briefings Grusch received, the surviving entities posed an immediate, lethal threat during the recovery operation. The confrontation turned into an active fire fight where U.S. service members were severely injured and killed before the entities were shot dead. Grusch states he expects the military personnel who survived the firefight to eventually step forward and recount the event in full detail.
> "US personnel started, you know, getting hurt and dying... It's crazy, man... it posed a threat."
[02:09:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=7753s) The Stigma of Close Encounters and Putting It on the Line
David Grusch expresses his hope that, through the ongoing congressional process, firsthand witnesses will eventually be allowed to speak publicly so the world can hear the truth directly from the source rather than through his secondhand accounts. Joe Rogan notes how surreal it is to discuss such topics, joking about how fascinating it would be to interview a soldier who shot a seven-foot reptilian—comparing it to interviewing the operator who killed Osama bin Laden, except far more mind-bending. Rogan acknowledges that the sheer absurdity of talking about reptilians or aliens is precisely why many credible witnesses stay quiet: regardless of the truth, saying it out loud risks making a person look like a fool.
Grusch empathizes deeply with that feeling, reflecting on his own background as a serious intelligence officer who worked on highly sensitive covert action activities. Suddenly finding himself inundated with the anomalous ecosystem and presenting classified testimony to members of Congress made him feel, by conventional standards, like a "crazy person." Despite the inherent discomfort, Grusch stresses that what he uncovered is grounded in reality: "I know who I talked to, I know what I saw, and I clearly have some inkling of what's going on behind the scenes. And this is a real reality, man." Rogan agrees, observing that as bizarre as extraterrestrial or non-human intelligence sounds, the universe itself—with black holes, stellar nurseries, and unsolved mysteries like dark matter and WIMPs (weakly interacting massive particles)—is infinitely stranger.
[02:11:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=7860s) Military Witnesses, Nuclear Sites, and Secret Trauma
Grusch points out that many encounters involve highly trained, sober military personnel who have nothing to gain by lying. He cites the famous Ellsworth Air Force Base incident from the 1970s involving security police personnel Mario Woods and Michael Johnson, which was highlighted by documentarian Jesse Michels. Watching these veterans recount their encounters—including an entity pushing a medical probe into them—reveals raw, uncomfortable emotion from men who can barely believe what happened to them. Grusch also references Robert Hastings' seminal book *UFOs and Nukes*, emphasizing that credible observers stationed at sensitive nuclear installations have repeatedly documented these incursions.
Behind closed doors, high-ranking government officials and serious professionals frequently pull Grusch aside to confide encounters they have hidden for decades, often keeping them secret even from their spouses out of fear of being seen as crazy. Grusch notes that while many colleagues quietly support his disclosure crusade, few are willing to step into the public line of fire. He admits that being the public face of this issue was never his ambition; he would have preferred to remain in uniform hunting warlords, running overwatch on hostage rescues with Joint Operations Center (JOC) units, and fighting terrorists—high-stress work that ultimately left him with service-related PTSD.
- Credible military encounters at strategic locations are extensively documented, notably in Robert Hastings' *UFOs and Nukes*.
- Security personnel Mario Woods and Michael Johnson experienced an alleged close encounter and abduction at Ellsworth AFB in South Dakota during the 1970s.
- Grusch frequently encounters high-level officials who privately disclose their own sightings, suggesting the genuine rate of experiences is far higher than polling suggests due to social stigma.
[02:13:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=7980s) Historical Parallels: MKUltra, Secret Records, and Government Cover-Ups
Addressing why a sitting president or the White House cannot simply kick down doors to expose secret programs, Grusch draws a historical comparison to the exposure of the CIA's Project MKUltra and the Church Committee hearings in the 1970s. When CIA Director Richard Helms ordered Sidney Gottlieb to destroy all MKUltra documentation in 1973, the program was nearly erased from history. It was only exposed through investigative reporting by Seymour Hersh in *The New York Times*, subsequent whistleblower leaks to Senator Frank Church, and the discovery of misfiled financial and budgetary records that had survived destruction.
Grusch also references the "Family Jewels"—the dossier compiled by Director of Central Intelligence James R. Schlesinger cataloging illegal and ethically compromised domestic agency activities—and an unreleased 1960s CIA Inspector General report. Rogan and Grusch tick through other historical operations dragged into the light by congressional scrutiny, including the CIA's covert heart attack gun, Operation Midnight Climax (using agency safehouse brothels in San Francisco and New York to dose unsuspecting men with LSD), biological vulnerability tests like the military's aerosolized pathogen spraying over San Francisco, and Operation Mockingbird, which manipulated domestic press assets in apparent defiance of the 1948 Smith-Mundt Act. These historical precedents illustrate how deeply entrenched special access programs evade executive and congressional oversight until an institutional slip-up or deliberate whistleblower revolt occurs.
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: Historical Intelligence Exposures
accDescr: Diagram tracing how buried CIA programs were exposed despite orders to destroy records.
subgraph Suppression["Institutional Concealment"]
A["Illegal/Covert Programs<br/>(MKUltra, Midnight Climax)"] --> B["Destruction Orders<br/>(Helms orders Gottlieb to shred files)"]
end
subgraph Discovery["Paper Trail & Whistleblowers"]
B -. "Overlooked Budget Records".-> C["Financial Records Discovered"]
D["Whistleblowers & Insiders"] --> E["Press Leaks<br/>(Seymour Hersh, NYT)"]
F["Internal Dossiers<br/>(Schlesinger's 'Family Jewels')"] --> G["Congressional Inquiries"]
end
subgraph Accountability["Public Exposure"]
C --> H["Church Committee Hearings (1975)"]
E --> H
G --> H
end
```
[02:15:11](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=8111s) Signatures, the Prime Directive, and the Controlled Pace of Disclosure
Rogan questions why, if advanced non-human intelligence is visiting Earth, their presence is not universally obvious to everyone walking the streets. Grusch explains that these craft actively utilize operational concealment, cover, and deception techniques, specifically "signature management" akin to a cloaking device. Citing ufologist Jacques Vallée, Grusch suggests that encounters often appear theatrical or calibrated—acting as an informational "control system" rather than overt military occupation. When Rogan mentions strange park disappearances covered by David Paulides' *Missing 411* series, Grusch acknowledges the anomalous nature of those cases but notes that hard answers remain elusive.
Regarding why an overt landing on the White House lawn has never occurred, Grusch highlights two concepts: exopolitics and the *Star Trek* "Prime Directive." An advanced non-human civilization observing a pre-warp human society might abide by strict ethical rules of engagement, intentionally refraining from disrupting human development. Rogan adds that sudden, unvarnished disclosure would trigger catastrophic civil and social collapse; a slow, generational acclimation—evident in the vast shift from the ridicule of the 1990s and 2000s to the mainstream legitimacy sparked by *The New York Times* reporting in December 2017—is the only viable way society could absorb such reality-altering news.
[02:17:41](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=8261s) Historical Interactions and Submerged Ocean Bases
David Grusch observes that interactions between humanity and non-human intelligences appear to have been much more overt in antiquity. Looking back at mythologies such as the Greek gods, encounters seemed to involve open, mass events before shifting over time. Joe Rogan points out ancient religious artwork depicting figures riding in craft propelled by trailing fire. While Grusch does not endorse full "Chariots of the Gods" theories, he suspects an accurate middle ground exists: the display, concealment, deception, and overall force presentation of these intelligences have evolved, making them far less inclined today to stage major positive or negative overt actions.
When Rogan asks if there is a consensus regarding their physical origin—referencing theories like Tim Burchett's remarks on underwater activity—Grusch confirms that substantial information exists concerning ocean operations, though details brush against sensitive U.S. Navy surveillance capabilities. He reveals there is a massive base of operations in certain maritime locations spanning multiple city blocks, with an indeterminate origin and timeline. When asked about anomalies like the Baltic Sea anomaly, Grusch demurs to let governments handle it, but emphasizes that community insiders often refer to James Cameron's 1989 film *The Abyss* as resembling a "docudrama." The submerged structures function as transit hubs where objects regularly come and go, likely subject to military behavioral and mission analyses.
- Grusch confirms the existence of large underwater structures spanning multiple city blocks where non-human craft transit.
- Navy and intelligence community insiders privately liken the underwater reality to the 1989 film *The Abyss*.
- U.S. tracking methods for these underwater bases involve highly classified national security detection systems that will require formal government acknowledgment strategies to disclose.
[02:21:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=8461s) The Matthew Brown Allegations and Psyop Theories
Rogan transitions to recent social media controversy regarding Matthew Brown, asking whether Grusch allegedly ran a psychological operation (psyop) that tricked Brown into becoming a whistleblower. Grusch forcefully dismisses the narrative, explaining that he did not even know Brown existed until right before a 2024 congressional hearing, well after Grusch had separated from the intelligence community. Online claims had suggested Grusch fabricated briefing materials during his time as an advisor to the Schriever Wargame high-level cell to fool personnel.
Grusch clarifies that he never created any "hazing briefs" regarding UAP, only recalling humorous Star Trek-themed slides made years prior to banter with his airmen. According to Grusch, Brown claims to have inadvertently discovered a classified UAP briefing while cleaning up a network file system around 2018. Grusch emphasizes that he has never seen the document in question, cannot evaluate its contents, and only communicated with Brown later to ensure he had support resources. Rogan notes the online rumors distort these events into claims of orchestrated handling, prompting Grusch to reiterate that he operates independently with a small circle of trusted peers rather than under clandestine intelligence guidance.
[02:23:23](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=8603s) Synchronicities, Consciousness, and Craft Architecture
Turning to the stranger aspects of the phenomenon, Grusch addresses synchronicities—the recurring, improbable alignments of events and meetings throughout his investigation. While acknowledging human analytical bias often projects meaning onto random statistical noise, he notes that an uncanny "je ne sais quoi" or hidden hand seems woven into the subject. He connects this conceptual territory to historical intelligence efforts like Project Stargate and Grill Flame. Beyond Cold War competition with Soviet and Chinese remote viewers, Grusch argues that psychic research was pursued because non-human technologies rely on organic-to-technology interfaces rooted directly in consciousness.
```mermaid
flowchart LR
accTitle: Consciousness Interface to UAP Technology
accDescr: Flowchart illustrating the link between intelligence programs, brain-computer interfaces, and UAP control mechanisms.
subgraph Intelligence ["Cold War Research"]
A["Stargate / Grill Flame"] --> B["Remote Viewing & Psychic Spying"]
end
subgraph Interface ["Operational Mechanism"]
B --> C["Brain-Computer Interface (BCI)"]
C --> D["Organic-to-Tech Interface"]
end
subgraph Craft ["UAP Hardware"]
D --> E["Consciousness-Driven Flight"]
D --> F["Egg-Shaped Unmanned Probes"]
end
```
Rogan connects this to Bob Lazar's claims that craft lacked physical flight instruments and were operated via mind-machine links. Grusch confirms that control systems vary across craft classes, ranging from unrecognizable architectures to vehicles with somewhat familiar attributes. Highlighting the strangest examples, Grusch points to seamless, egg-shaped unmanned probes recovered by military recovery specialists, including recoveries publicly referenced by Jake Barber. These objects mimic the aesthetic seen in the film *Arrival*, exhibiting completely smooth skins devoid of visible seams, wiring, or aerodynamic control surfaces.
- Remote viewing programs (Grill Flame, Stargate) were directly adjacent to legacy crash-retrieval efforts to decipher consciousness-based flight interfaces.
- Recovered hardware includes completely smooth, egg-shaped craft that appear to be unmanned probes with tech integrated directly into the skin.
- Historical crash retrieval programs encountered hardware with no recognizable control surfaces or manual cockpit controls.
[02:26:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=8761s) Disclosure Timeline and Political Windows
On the operational timeline for worldwide realization, Rogan asks when substantive change might take hold. Grusch states that base-level "threshold disclosure"—an official presidential acknowledgment affirming that humanity is not alone and that craft materials are held—must occur before Donald Trump leaves office. Grusch expresses strong skepticism that a succeeding administration would voluntarily carry the torch, warning that future political leadership could easily reverse course, seal the records, and abandon the disclosure directive altogether.
[02:26:31](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=8791s) Planning for Disclosure and the H.W. Bush Video
David Grusch discusses how a hypothetical presidential disclosure of the UAP phenomenon should be executed. He suggests that if he were advising the President of the United States, disclosure should take place at least six months prior to a presidential election to ensure an adequate societal and political "recovery period." Acknowledging his role as an outsider and ordinary citizen, he expresses his desire—shared by many Americans—to see the truth emerge as rapidly as possible.
When Joe Rogan asks how such an event would logistically occur—whether it would involve a nationwide broadcast featuring video proof and official explanations—Grusch reveals that an actual plan was formulated under a previous administration. Rogan asks if this occurred during the George W. Bush administration in the era of Hal Puthoff, but Grusch corrects him, specifying that the plan was developed during the George H.W. Bush administration around 1989. Grusch jokes about the era's aesthetic, imagining an awkward government production complete with synthwave background music and dry narration. Rogan expresses hope that this archival video still survives somewhere in government vaults, and Grusch agrees it would be fascinating to watch after formal disclosure.
- Grusch advises scheduling disclosure at least six months before an election cycle to manage the shock and fallout.
- A scripted, audiovisual announcement accompanying disclosure was actively planned around 1989 under President George H.W. Bush.
[02:27:43](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=8863s) Cohabitation, Homeostasis, and AI as a Wildcard
Rogan reflects on the broader historical context, noting that while humanity's gradual awakening to the phenomenon feels like a long journey, human lifespans are brief. He suggests the phenomenon may have coexisted with and guided or aided humanity across deep time. Grusch concurs, emphasizing that humanity should avoid panic: while the universe contains a natural balance of positive and negative ("yin and yang"), the longstanding history between the intelligence and humanity demonstrates an existing "homeostasis" and peaceful "cohabitation" without catastrophe.
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: AI and UAP Discovery Pathways
accDescr: Diagram illustrating how Artificial Superintelligence might independently uncover and interface with non-human intelligence.
subgraph DataIngestion ["Data Aggregation"]
A["Disparate Classified Databases"]
B["Medical & Genetic Archives"]
C["Global Sensor Networks"]
end
subgraph Outcomes ["Wildcard Scenarios"]
F["Third-Party Unexpected Disclosure"]
G["Silicon-Based Communication Bridge to NHI"]
end
A --> D
B --> D
C --> D
D --> E
E --> F
E --> G
```
Rogan then questions whether the emergence of sentient artificial intelligence is linked to this process. Grusch states he cannot verify that as a matter of fact, but he reiterates his primary concern regarding advanced machine intelligence: an Artificial Superintelligence (ASI) could independently deduces the phenomenon by synthesizing disparate datasets. If AI gains access to medical records, genetic databases, and defense sensing systems, it represents an unscripted "third-party unexpected disclosure pathway" that White House policymakers must prepare for. Additionally, Grusch ponders whether silicon-based artificial intelligence might serve as the universal interface required to bridge the communication gap with non-human organic intelligence.
[02:29:28](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=8968s) Personal Toll, Sacrifice, and Closing Remarks
Joe Rogan commends Grusch for his bravery, noting the profound impact his whistleblower testimony has had on public knowledge. Rogan points out that without Grusch stepping forward, society might still be entirely in the dark. Grusch admits the entire process has taken a massive personal and physical toll, describing the experience as "debilitating" and fraught with danger.
Despite the threats and exhaustion, Grusch expresses that he hopes this interview will be his final public media appearance. He views his efforts as an extension of his service to the nation, stating that while risking everything was difficult, he felt honored to blow the whistle and uncover what he terms the "core secret of the United States." Rogan affirms that Grusch has undeniably "moved the needle," and the conversation closes on an appreciative and respectful note.
## Notable quotes
> [05:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=344s) Officers of the government. That's true. — David Grusch
> [20:06](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=1206s) they literally were thinking about killing fucking Dave. — David Grusch
> [27:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=1634s) The UFO thing is going to come out. — Stephen Miller
> [38:25](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=2305s) I remember in my office, I had like all these different phones. I'm like calling the embassy, all this. I'm like, 'What the [expletive],' you know? And because we were worried at the NRO about the debris, because we fly space spy satellites. That's the mission of the National Reconnaissance Office. — David Grusch
> [48:51](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=2931s) I mean, how they wanted to fucking kill me. This is like—it's disturbing, and you wonder why I had to become a whistleblower. I didn't want to do this shit, but like I was pushed over the edge to do that. — David Grusch
> [54:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=3286s) Oh, 100%. Yeah... I know that for sure. — David Grusch
> [01:00:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=3632s) think of the Greek gods. — William N. McCaslin
> [01:12:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=4341s) Uh oh... the reptilian ones are the ones that everyone's terrified of — Joe Rogan
> [01:16:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=4595s) I cannot fucking believe I'm talking about this shit on Joe Rogan. — David Grusch
> [01:54:34](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=6874s) Unlike Elon Musk, I actually had all those clearances. — David Grusch
> [01:56:43](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=7003s) You think the federal government just passively studied it? 'Oh, we did a secret Blue Book and we were just like, you know, imaging stuff.' No, baby, we're doing for material exploitation and acquisition. We're going to go get some of this shit when we get a chance when... there's a mission failure or one crashes or lands. — David Grusch
> [02:07:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=7634s) US personnel started, you know, getting hurt and dying... It's crazy, man... it posed a threat. — David Grusch
> [02:09:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=7753s) I know who I talked to, I know what I saw, and I clearly have some inkling of what's going on behind the scenes. And this is a real reality, man. — David Grusch
## Mentioned
David Grusch, Joe Rogan, Eric Burlison, Scott Perry, David Rush, Kash Patel, Oliver North, Freeway Ricky Ross, Michael Ruppert, John Deutch, Marco Rubio, Mark Warner, Donald Trump, Stephen Miller, Tim Burchett, Benny Johnson, George H.W. Bush, Dick Cheney, Christopher Miller, Diana Pasulka, Garry Nolan, Stephen Hadley, Carl Sagan, Isaac Asimov, Stephen Hawking, Tom DeLonge, Harold 'Hal' Puthoff, George W. Bush, Roger Penrose, Stuart Hameroff, William N. McCaslin, Matthew 'Quake' Sullivan, Graham Hancock, Randall Carlson, Bob Lazar, Jodie Foster, Beatriz Villarroel, Jacques Vallée, Herodotus, Kurt Russell, Filippo Biondi, Anna Paulina Luna, Robert Bigelow, George Knapp, Larry Ellison, Betty and Barney Hill, Karla Turner, Jamie Vernon, Elon Musk, Edward Ruppelt, Harry Turner, J. Allen Hynek, Donald Keyhoe, James McDonald, Richard Nixon, Jackie Gleason, Robert Emenegger, Hillary Clinton, John Podesta, Robert Weiss, James Clapper, Mario Woods, Michael Johnson, Jesse Michels, Robert Hastings, Richard Helms, Sidney Gottlieb, Frank Church, Seymour Hersh, James R. Schlesinger, David Paulides, James Cameron, Matthew Brown, Jake Barber, United States Air Force, National Reconnaissance Office, National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency, Unidentified Aerial Phenomena Task Force, Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of Investigation, Central Intelligence Agency, Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, Intelligence Community Inspector General, Principal Deputy Director of National Intelligence, NORAD, USNORTHCOM, Defense Special Missile and Astronautics Center, All-domain Anomaly Resolution Office, Air Force Research Laboratory, Smithsonian National Air and Space Museum Steven F. Udvar-Hazy Center, Lincoln Laboratory, MITRE Corporation, Egyptian Ministry of Tourism and Antiquities, Natural History Museum, OpenAI, Australian Joint Intelligence Organisation, Defense Intelligence Agency, NICAP, MacArthur Foundation, Lockheed Martin, Skunk Works, To The Stars Academy, U.S. Navy, White House, Vatican, Rolex, AG1, Creavitalis, Sora, The New York Times, South China Morning Post, Project Blue Book, UAP Disclosure Act of 2023, 1971 Accident Measures Agreement, A Brief History of Time, The X-Files, Star Trek: The Next Generation, AAWSAP, Defense Intelligence Reference Documents, The Age of Disclosure, Mahabharata, Bhagavad Gita, Passport to Magonia, Book of Enoch, Book of Ezekiel, Dead Sea Scrolls, Contact, Stargate, Arrival, The Abyss, Missing 411, UFOs and Nukes, Project MKUltra, Church Committee, Family Jewels, Operation Midnight Climax, Operation Mockingbird, Smith-Mundt Act, Project Stargate, Grill Flame, VASCO project, Capitol Reef National Park, White Sands Proving Ground, Holloman Air Force Base
## Video description
David Grusch is a former United States Air Force intelligence officer, former representative of the National Reconnaissance Office to the Unidentified Aerial Phenomena Task Force, and former co-lead for Unidentified Anomalous Phenomena analysis at the National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency.
Perplexity: Download the app or ask Perplexity anything at https://pplx.ai/rogan.
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Former intelligence officer and congressional investigator David Grusch argues that the United States government maintains covert crash-retrieval and reverse-engineering programs involving non-human intelligence, shielded by rogue black-budget networks that have engaged in severe criminal conduct and violent retaliation against whistleblowers. Grusch maintains that systemic institutional deception must be countered by an official presidential disclosure before geopolitical adversaries or emerging artificial superintelligence force an uncontrolled release.
Black Budgets, Program Secrecy, and Criminal Exploitation (3:08)
Grusch asserts that decades of insulated compartmentalization and nonexistent congressional oversight have allowed unacknowledged Special Access Programs (SAPs) to devolve into rogue operations. To illustrate the lack of lateral accountability, he points to the case of CIA officer David Rush, who fabricated an unbriefed Continuity of Government SAP to embezzle approximately $40 million in 303 physical one-kilogram gold bars and luxury goods before an FBI raid in May. Grusch claims this mechanism mirrors the covert ecosystem surrounding legacy crash-retrieval efforts, where a small, insulated caste has operated outside legal boundaries. He states that he delivered actionable evidence to the Department of Justice and briefed members of Congress in secure facilities regarding government-connected officers running illicit enterprises, including money laundering and human trafficking, to fund off-the-ledger special operations.
Surveillance, Retaliation, and Coordinated Lethal Threats (16:50)
Following his formal complaint to the Intelligence Community Inspector General (ICIG), Grusch and his associates experienced severe intimidation. Beginning in 2021, several individuals aiding his inquiry suffered anomalous health incidents consistent with Havana syndrome and directed-energy exposure. By early 2022, Grusch received explicit warnings indicating that actors possessed the capability to reach him and his wife at their residence, an incident he immediately referred to federal counterintelligence. During a subsequent off-the-books session inside the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence secure compartmented information facility (SCIF), briefers identified specific individuals who had plotted to kill Grusch to prevent public exposure. Grusch notes that an intervention halted the plot, which remains under an active Department of Justice investigation.
Crash Retrievals, Recovered Materials, and Hostile Encounters (58:48)
Reiterating his formal congressional testimony, Grusch states that the U.S. government possesses intact and semi-intact non-human craft, biological specimens, and active reverse-engineering initiatives. He reports reviewing multi-source, vetted modern video footage of a crash site displaying deceased non-human cadavers. In addition, Grusch recounts classified briefings documenting a lethal confrontation during a retrieval operation where surviving, non-human reptilian entities engaged U.S. service members in an active firefight, resulting in military casualties before the entities were killed. He also notes intelligence records of conflicts between differing non-human factions, and hypothesizes that the calming sensations reported by personnel approaching certain craft represent engineered 'psychotronic' defensive countermeasures designed to neutralize human aggression.
Geopolitical Pressures and the Impending Disclosure Window (22:38)
Grusch predicts that threshold presidential disclosure—formally acknowledging non-human intelligence and recovered craft—must occur before the end of Donald Trump's term, warning that subsequent administrations may reverse transparency directives and re-seal archives. He cites historical precedent for scripted disclosure planning, including a 1989 initiative developed under the George H.W. Bush administration, but notes a November 2004 defense assessment sponsored by Stephen Hadley rejected transparency primarily due to civil liability, contract fraud, and property rights disputes. Grusch stresses that modern operational realities rule out protracted multi-year timelines. A protracted rollout risks foreign adversaries like China—which operates an AI-assisted military task force tracking anomalous encounters—seizing geopolitical control of the narrative, while an unconstrained commercial Artificial Superintelligence (ASI) analyzing sensor and genomic data could inadvertently trigger public disclosure on its own.
While Grusch anticipates that firsthand military and intelligence witnesses will eventually corroborate his secondhand disclosures before Congress, key physical evidence and the full records of active Department of Justice investigations into illicit retaliation remain classified, leaving formal executive acknowledgment as the primary unresolved hurdle.
Detailed notes — zh
## Background
本期节目由 PowerfulJRE 于 2026 年 9 月 30 日在 YouTube 平台发布。节目嘉宾大卫·格鲁施（David Grusch）是前美国空军情报官员，曾担任国家侦察局（NRO）派驻不明异常现象专案组（UAPTF）的代表，以及国家地理空间情报局（NGA）UAP 分析的联合负责人。
## TL;DR
大卫·格鲁施在节目中深入披露了其在国会任职及调查不明异常现象（UAP）期间的内幕，指出过度保密的特别准入计划（SAP）已演变为缺乏横向监督、涉嫌贪腐与深层洗资的失控系统，并证实自己曾遭遇行政迫害、定向能武器骚扰乃至暗杀密谋。他详述了美国政府掌握完好外星飞行器、非人类生物遗骸（NHI）、多类外星实体形态及交火回收记录的事实，同时探讨了飞行器的反重力推进与意识界面技术。格鲁施强调单凭影像无法建立公信力，呼吁通过博物馆公开实物残骸与独立民事科研推动全面真相披露，并借助真相与和解模式打破国防采办欺诈与长达数十年的掩盖惯性。
## Atmosphere & style
整场对话笼罩在一种极度严谨却令人心悸的紧张感中，前情报军官的冷静克制与乔·罗根充满求知欲的追问形成了鲜明张力。格鲁施以精确的军事情报术语平静地叙述暗杀密谋、深海基地、交火致死现场与本体论冲击，这种将科幻般情节置于严密国家安全框架下的陈述，给听众带来强烈而真实的荒诞与震撼感。随着话题从官僚暗网的冰冷现实逐步延伸到远古文明与量子意识，节目营造出一种历史正在被掀开遮羞布、真相即将迎来临界点的肃穆氛围。
## Bulletin
- [56:37](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=3397s) 前情报官员大卫·格鲁施在播客中证实，美国政府不仅持有完好与受损的非人类飞行器，更掌握了多具非人类生物遗骸并开展了基因比对工程。
- [13:11](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=791s) 格鲁施披露其在深入调查期间曾遭到微波定向能武器攻击并面临内部人员暗杀图谋，相关犯罪线索与黑色资金链已提交司法部正式立案。
- [01:13:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=4424s) 解密与回收记录显示存在多种不同外星族群（包括小灰人、人形希腊神貌实体及巨型爬虫族），部分历史坠毁事件实为外星阵营间的空中武装交火所致。
- [45:05](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=2705s) 由于特种项目长期绕过国会监管，军工复合体面临数百亿美元违规采购索赔的法律危机，格鲁施呼吁采取“真相与和解”大赦机制并在博物馆公开展出实物。
## Key takeaways
- [00:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=1s) 格鲁施曾担任密苏里州众议员埃里克·伯利森的正式国会专业幕僚，在敏感隔离设施（SCIF）内向议员梳理UAP机密并揭发深层黑色资金犯罪。
- [03:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=188s) 中情局官员戴维·拉什贪腐案及4000万美元实物黄金的查获，暴露出免除监督特别准入计划（Waived SAPs）因过度保密而缺乏横向审计的系统性漏洞。
- [11:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=676s) 格鲁施在2020至2022年间遭遇行政绞杀、涉密电脑监控、定向能武器攻击（哈瓦那综合征）以及情报界内部人员策划的暗杀威胁。
- [24:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=1454s) 中俄两国同样在运行平行的秘密UAP回收与逆向工程项目，地缘技术竞争是各方维持极端保密的核心考量之一。
- [45:05](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=2705s) 阻碍官方全面公开的核心阻力之一是政府采购欺诈风险，军方长期向极少数防务承包商违规发放单一来源合同，公开将引发天量诉讼与违约索赔。
- [58:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=3528s) 格鲁施亲眼调阅过多渠道交叉验证的录像档案，证实回收现场存在面容俊美、苍白蓝白色皮肤且高度接近人类的非人类生物遗体。
- [01:16:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=4595s) 核心线人及外勤同事曾目击过身高超7英尺、具明显爬虫类特征的人形实体，并有击落现场美军与爬虫族发生致命地面交火并致人员阵亡的记录。
- [01:13:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=4424s) 记录在案的飞行器坠毁事件中，有12至24起系不同非人类智能种族之间的交战（NHI vs NHI）导致，残骸现场曾同时发现不同种族尸体。
- [01:24:31](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=5071s) 多国雷达与卫星层析探测在埃及哈瓦拉地下迷宫及吉萨深处发现了数十米长的不明未知金属结构，引发远古地外遗物与货物崇拜假说的讨论。
- [01:36:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=5792s) 回收现场外勤人员在靠近残骸时普遍报告异常情绪与心灵感应，推测为飞行器装配的“心理电子防御技术”，用于在受损时消解外界武装敌意。
- [01:54:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=6892s) 麻省理工林肯实验室及澳大利亚1971年解密档案均表明，美军“蓝皮书计划”本质是面向公众设立的安抚门面，军方内部始终对UAP技术高度焦虑。
- [01:02:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=3740s) 格鲁施呼吁在当前总统任期内迅速推进大赦与门槛性揭秘，仅凭影像无法建立公信力，必须在博物馆公开展出实体飞行器并由民事科学家实测生物样本。
## Detailed walkthrough
### [00:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=1s) 重返播客：从国会吹哨人到众议院专业幕僚
大卫·格鲁施（David Grusch）再度做客《乔·罗根体验》（The Joe Rogan Experience）。当罗根调侃他是“离火焰最近的人”并询问近况时，格鲁施苦笑着直言，自己过去这几年简直是“生活在一场噩梦之中”。他回顾道，上一次来节目时，自己刚在国会完成轰动一时的公开作证，而当时外界寄予厚望的《2023年不明异常现象揭秘法案》（UAP Disclosure Act of 2023）随后却遗憾流产。鉴于从白宫和拜登政府内部获知的一些动向，格鲁施在2024年选择暂时保持低调，蓄力蛰伏。
转折点出现在密苏里州共和党联邦众议员埃里克·伯利森（Eric Burlison）提出的大胆构想：聘请格鲁施担任国会专业幕僚（Professional Staff Member）。格鲁施指出，这创造了美国国会的一项历史先例——他是首位以公开吹哨人身份在国会作证、随后又被国会直接聘为正式幕僚的人。他极为感激伯利森的领导力和担当。在这项任职的一年半时间里，格鲁施在高强度运作中推动了一系列实质工作，直到刚过完的劳工节（Labor Day）及8月国会夏季休会期结束才正式卸任。他表示自己已达成了大部分既定目标，目前正准备进入下一阶段的行动，同时也需要让自己稍微喘口气，毕竟过去数年一直处于“全速冲刺”的极限紧绷状态。
- 2023年《不明异常现象揭秘法案》遭遇阻力未获通过后，格鲁施选择在2024年大部分时间隐入幕后。
- 众议员埃里克·伯利森打破惯例，将其招揽至国会团队担任专业幕僚，任期约一年半。
- 格鲁施在2024年8月国会夏季休会期间完成最后攻坚，于劳工节后卸任，开启下一阶段行动。
---
### [02:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=127s) 国会内部博弈与机密简报室（SCIF）中的暗流
罗根问及目前国会内部对于UAP揭秘的态度阵营：究竟有多少议员迫切寻求真相，又有多少力量在全力阻挠？格鲁施解释称，国会内部存在着显著的两极分化，基本分为“不信者”与以推动透明化为己任的“UAP核心小组”（UAP Caucus）。不过，越来越多的议员正在加入支持阵营。例如在当年6月国会大厦前举行的新闻发布会上，来自格鲁施家乡宾夕法尼亚州、曾任空军准将且身为众议院情报委员会成员的联邦众议员斯科特·佩里（Scott Perry）便公开站台，显示出这一议题正在获得更多资深议员的背书。
然而，真正惊心动魄的博弈全都在幕后。格鲁施透露，他在敏感情报隔离设施（SCIF，机密简报室）内为多位国会议员举行了多场高度机密的闭门简报会。在这些会议上，他不仅梳理了UAP议题在情报体系内部跨越数十年的“拓扑演变史”，更向议员们揭露了自己在调查过程中意外撞破的深层系统性犯罪行为。格鲁施强调，针对这部分极度敏感的黑色资金与犯罪活动，他一直在与美国司法部（DOJ）展开直接合作，推动正式调查。
---
### [03:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=188s) 4000万美元金条贪腐案：虚构的“政府延续性”特别准入计划
当罗根追问究竟涉及何种犯罪时，格鲁施由于司法部调查仍在进行中，必须在法律红线内谨慎措辞。为了说明这种体制漏洞的荒谬程度，他援引了一起近期被联邦调查局（FBI）侦破的真实惊天要案：一名与他同音不同字的中央情报局（CIA）官员戴维·拉什（David Rush）于当年5月被捕。拉什凭借自身的权限壁垒，伪造了一套谁也没有获得知情权限（Read-in）的“政府延续性”（Continuity of Government, COG）特别准入计划（SAP）。
在此套虚假计划的掩护下，拉什以“应对国家突发灾难、维持政府运转所需的特殊活动资金”为由，直接从中情局申领调拨了大量实物资产，在机构内部竟无人过问或核查。直到FBI突击搜查其住所，才查获了包括多块劳力士名表以及总价值高达4000万美元的实物黄金。罗根对此大为震惊，连番追问中情局为何会有成堆的金条闲置、拉什究竟如何藏匿。格鲁施与罗根现场核算，这批黄金大约包含303块每块重约1公斤（约2.2磅）的标准金砖，总重超过600磅。格鲁施回忆起自己在阿富汗服役时的见闻，当时特工经常手提塞满10万美元现钞的公文包在战区付账，但将数百磅实物金条藏匿在私人住宅中，其贪婪与内部监管真空之深令人咋舌。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 特殊黑色项目资金滥用逻辑链
accDescr: 展示虚构特别准入计划如何绕过监管调取实物黑预算资产并进行个人侵吞或非法行动
subgraph SAP["特别准入计划 (SAP) 机制漏洞"]
A["伪造/滥用最高机密代号<br/>（如：政府延续性 COG）"] --> B["切断横向监督<br/>（仅极少数单线知情权限）"]
B --> C["以国家安全为由申请非公开资产<br/>（4000万美元实物金条 / 洗涤资金）"]
end
subgraph Agency["情报机构深层盲区"]
C --> D["机构内部缺乏审计追踪机制"]
D --> E["个人侵吞与非法套现<br/>（戴维·拉什案：藏匿600磅金砖与名表）"]
D --> F["充当未受监管的黑色行动资金库"]
end
```
- CIA涉案官员戴维·拉什伪造虚假的“政府延续性”（COG）绝密计划，成功骗调巨额资产。
- FBI在5月的突击搜查中查获约303块一公斤装金砖（总重逾600磅，市价约4000万美元）及大量奢侈品劳力士手表。
- 该案暴露出特别准入计划（SAP）由于极度保密和信息割裂，极易沦为监管真空之下的灰色甚至违法温床。
---
### [05:28](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=328s) 深层暗网、非法洗资与冷酷历史对照
格鲁施澄清，戴维·拉什伪造的贪腐项目本身并非用于UAP调查或信息披露，但这起案件揭示了与UAP深层网络高度重合的体制生态系统——一种寄生在联邦政府深层暗网中的特殊架构。格鲁施神情严肃地表示，自己掌握了此前从未向公众披露过的恐怖内幕：在某些以国家安全计划为掩护的特定机构内部，存在着一个不择手段的犯罪网络。为了给绝密的下线外围组织（Cutouts）获取未经国会审计和法定监督的“清洗资金”（Washed money），这套生态系统甚至涉及令人发指的恶劣非法勾当。
当罗根极其震惊地追问是否包含人口贩卖、甚至是针对儿童的贩运时，格鲁施直截了当地给出了肯定的答复：“是政府体制内的官员干的。千真万确（Officers of the government. That's true）。”格鲁施强调，这正是整个事件最为凶险严肃之处。他补充道，绝大多数在UAP逆向工程等合法项目中工作的科学家、情报人员和军人都是无可挑剔的爱国者，许多人还是他的挚友；然而，在最核心的控制层面上，盘踞着一小撮享有特权的行事者，他们奉行“毫无底线、随心所欲”的信条，通过残暴犯罪为隐秘行动筹集黑金。
```mermaid
flowchart LR
accTitle: 历史与现实中的非正规黑金获取模式对比
accDescr: 对比伊朗门事件毒品走私与现代深层黑色项目非法洗资的机制
subgraph Historic["历史先例：伊朗门事件 (1986)"]
H1["中情局与奥利弗·诺思"] --> H2["秘密武器交易与毒品走私<br/>（巴里·希尔 / 里克·罗斯渠道）"]
H2 --> H3["资助尼加拉瓜康特拉反政府武装"]
end
subgraph Present["格鲁施揭露的现代深层机制"]
P1["特定机构内部失控网络"] --> P2["掩护下的严重跨国犯罪<br/>（洗钱 / 人口贩运等黑金来源）"]
P2 --> P3["资助不受国会监管的秘密外围代号项目"]
end
```
为了帮助罗根理解这一机制的历史惯性，格鲁施援引了1986年著名的“伊朗门事件”（Iran-Contra）。当时奥利弗·诺思（Oliver North）等人通过秘密军售以及巴里·希尔（Barry Seal）等渠道默许的毒品走私网络，获取资金来采购武器支援尼加拉瓜康特拉反政府武装。罗根随即联想到曾多次做客播客的“高速路”里克·罗斯（"Freeway" Ricky Ross）以及洛杉矶前缉毒警官迈克尔·鲁珀特（Michael Ruppert）。
罗根绘声绘色地回忆了罗斯的传奇经历：罗斯在不知情的情况下成为中情局资金链上的可卡因分销下线，后来在狱中从文盲自学成为法律行家，发现检方错误套用了“三振出局法案”（将单次抓捕中的三项罪名当作三次前科），最终胜诉出狱，如今合法经营大麻生意。而鲁珀特更是在C-SPAN直播的国会听证会上当面拆穿中情局在洛杉矶中南部社区纵容毒品泛滥的惊人内幕。格鲁施指出，正因为自己亲眼撞破了同样性质、甚至恶劣程度远超毒品贸易的当代黑色犯罪网络，他才在第一时间将其打包提交给了美国司法部，并全盘通报给了具备最高密级权限的国会议员。
### [09:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=558s) 秘密项目的失控监管与举报人身份的开端
谈及缺乏监管引发的极端违法行为，大卫·格鲁什（David Grusch）表示这一局面的严重性远超外界想象，自己脑海中的疑问也远多于现有答案。他曾与司法部（DOJ）展开合作，并得知在去年向卡什·帕特尔（Kash Patel）汇报的相关简报中，自己所做的工作获得了高度肯定（“got a gold star”），然而简报涉及的内容极其令人不安。格鲁什分析指出，从法律渊源来看，许多针对不明异常现象（UAP）的遗留项目最初并非毫无依据，早期确实存在覆盖这些事务的保密行政命令；但由于长期将国会完全排除在知情范围与体制监管之外，导致极少数特权利益小圈子在暗处肆意妄为，做出根本不该发生的事情。
格鲁什强调，自己从未想过要成为一名“举报人”（whistleblower）。作为在空军与情报界深耕十五年的资深军官，他从奥巴马政府时期的二十几岁起，就频繁出入白宫向国家安全委员会（NSC）做空间安全专题简报，负责全美最敏感的核心机密。当他在2019年受命加入不明空中现象特别工作组（UAPTF）调查这些线索时，最初以为这只是特别专案准入（SAP/黑预算项目）系统里常见的官僚机能紊乱或未如实报备。他当时的心态很务实，以为只要摸清内部项目的脉络，对方就会找他签署保密协议（NDA）并完成准入程序，双方顶多像“黑手党聚会”一样私下通个气，互不干涉地把账目理清。然而事态的发展完全脱轨，极少数圈内人没有选择防卫性简报或正规准入通道，而是直接将他逼入绝境。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 格鲁什调查与遭打压时间线
accDescr: 展示格鲁什从2019年进入UAP工作组到2022年遭遇暗杀威胁的调查与受迫害历程
subgraph Phase1["调查展开与行政封杀 (2019-2020)"]
A["2019: 加入UAP特别工作组"] --> B["调查深入接触敏感加密笔记"]
B --> C["2020年10月: 突遭全面行政绞杀"]
end
subgraph Phase2["多方调查与人身威慑 (2021-2022)"]
C --> D["2021: 团队协助者遭微波武器攻击<br/>(哈瓦那综合征)"]
D --> E["格鲁什遭三家机构联合立案调查"]
E --> F["2021年末: 入职NGA寻求庇护"]
F --> G["2022年初: 收到跨地域协同的人身恐吓"]
end
subgraph Phase3["国会通报与刑事立案 (2022-至今)"]
G --> H["参议院情报委员会SCIF秘密会议"]
H --> I["知情高层警示: 内部人员曾策划实施暗杀"]
I --> J["司法部(DOJ)反情报侦查目前仍在进行中"]
end
```
### [11:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=676s) 2020年10月的行政绞杀与连带打压
格鲁什的职业生涯在2020年10月遭遇断崖式转折。一些原本在圈内就与他熟识的高层人员并未找他面谈或要求补签协议，而是直接发动了全面的“行政核打击”（administratively nuked）。打压范围迅速扩大到格鲁什身边的核心工作网：他在国家侦察局（NRO）的主管、同为空军预备役少校的高级军官，被以捏造的“个人品行问题”强行护送驱逐出位于弗吉尼亚州尚蒂利（Chantilly）的NRO总部；随后，他在国家地理空间情报局（NGA）任职GS-15级部门负责人时手下的幕僚长（Chief of Staff）以及多名被视作“协助者”的同事，也相继遭到机构清算。
在打压初期，对手试图利用他在阿富汗服役留下的创伤后应激障碍（PTSD）等心理健康议题对他实施人格抹黑。格鲁什指出，自己早在此前就已按正规流程主动报备，并通过了严格的心理与安全审查，始终合法持有最高机密（Top Secret）安全许可。他原以为这只是一场体制内部的行政诉讼与博弈，但进入2022年初，针对他个人及家庭的人身威胁开始急剧恶化，其危险程度远超常规官僚清算，直接跨越了法律与人道底线。
- 格鲁什在20多岁时便代表军方进白宫向国家安全委员会提供空间防御简报。
- 2020年10月起，针对格鲁什及其协助团队的打击涉及虚构品行指控与行政驱逐。
- 抹黑手段包括恶意泄露并歪曲他在阿富汗服役后的PTSD就医记录，但他始终完好保留了绝密安全许可。
### [13:11](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=791s) 监控、微波定向能武器与哈瓦那综合征
关于自己究竟触碰了哪一条禁忌红线，格鲁什表示至今未能完全确认。他合理推测，对方一直在暗中监控他在工作单位使用的涉密内网计算机，特别是他存放在电脑中经过加密的机密调查笔记，因此意识到他已经掌握了太多底细。更令人不寒而栗的是，早在2021年，数名向格鲁什提供关键线索和协助的知情人员突然遭遇了异常健康事件（AHI），即俗称的“哈瓦那综合征”（Havana Syndrome）。
格鲁什在政府内本就是负责AHI生态领域的资深专家。他最初甚至怀疑这些人是不是因过往的秘密行动招致了俄罗斯或中国等外国情报机构的敌意报复，因为体制内人员第一反应绝不会联想到这会出自本国内部。然而，根据受害者的生理病理表现以及他们在遭袭时采取的侦测手段，所有线索均指向高频微波定向能技术（microwave directed energy）。面对三家政府机构在2021年对他发起的连环调查，格鲁什一度只能被迫停职待在家中，由其他同事代为推进调查。直到2021年底，国家地理空间情报局（NGA）以GS-15级别将他重新招录入体制，他当时曾寄希望于NGA能够为他提供某种组织保护，抵御来自中央情报局（CIA）、NRO以及国防部（DoD）内部敌对势力的绞杀。
- 2021年期间，格鲁什曾同时面临来自三家不同政府机构的合围调查。
- 协助格鲁什调查的内部人员曾遭疑似微波定向能武器攻击，出现典型的哈瓦那综合征症状。
- 敌对监控甚至穿透了机构的保密内网，重点锁定格鲁什加密存储的专案笔记。
### [16:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=973s) 参议院情报委员会暗室通报与暗杀威胁
真正的转折点发生在2022年初。格鲁什在家附近发现了多次行踪可疑的窥探活动，随后在同一天，他与另一名调查人员在不同地点同时收到精心协调的威胁警告，直言“能够随时触碰他和他的妻子”，并明确掌握其具体行踪。数周后，格鲁什前往华盛顿特区代表NGA参加一场关于UAP的涉密研讨会，期间突然被紧急传唤至国会大厦的参议院情报特别委员会（SSCI）敏感隔音保密设施（SCIF）参加一场非公开闭门会议。
在长达数小时的会议中，现场聚集了十几名来自两党核心参议员（包括马可·卢比奥（Marco Rubio）和马克·沃纳（Mark Warner））的资深幕僚，以及多名资历深厚的情报界高层。在讨论完遗留项目的历史脉络后，与会的情报界知情人士直接当着全体国会高级幕僚的面指向坐在后排的格鲁什，明确点出了军工与情报体制内几名策划者的具体姓名，并当场告知：“这些人曾计划杀掉你。”乔·罗根随即追问暗杀动机是否与卢·埃利桑多（Lue Elizondo）此前披露的情况类似，格鲁什推测，某些总统调查通报（Presidential Findings）被部分派系恶意滥用以掩盖非法勾当，而他在向情报界监察长（IC IG）提交正式举报前所掌握的证据链，彻底击穿了对方的安全底线。格鲁什证实，目前联邦执法机构与司法部已就此暗杀密谋展开正式调查。
- 参议院情报委员会在保密SCIF内召开多小时非公开会议，十余位核心议员资深幕僚在场见证。
- 资深情报界人员在国会安全室内当场点名道姓，揭发试图杀害格鲁什的具体内部人员。
- 目前针对该死亡威胁与人身侵害的联邦调查仍在持续进行中。
### [18:55](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=1135s) 节目赞助插播：AG1 营养补剂
访谈告一段落之际，乔·罗根切入商业赞助环节，介绍复合营养补剂品牌 AG1。罗根表示，高品质的一天离不开扎实的早晨例行习惯，身体如果缺乏关键营养素，整体机能都会受到影响。AG1 的 NextGen 新一代配方整合了超过75种成分，涵盖维生素、矿物质、适应原等，有助于填补日常膳食缺口并促进肠道健康益处；而进阶版的 AG1 Pro 则进一步加入了用于肌肉保护的 CAMBB、促进肠道健康的肌肽锌（zinc carnosine），以及5克德国产 Creatalis 高品质单水肌酸（creatine monohydrate）。罗根在播报中向听众提供了专属折扣链接及20%的订购优惠。
### [20:06](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=1206s) 越权滥用与暗杀危机：国会 SCIF 内的威士忌与死亡威胁
乔·罗根向大卫·格鲁施提问：在这一切背后，究竟有多少是关乎真实的 UAP（不明异常现象）信息公开，又有多少只是因为缺乏外部监管，导致某些人胡作非为、从事非法勾当？格鲁施指出，内部的一些“问题分子”歪曲并滥用了解释权。他们本应依据现行既定方案去保护美国的关键基础设施——例如空军跑道、洲际弹道导弹（ICBM）发射井及其他敏感设施，却擅自将格鲁施本人定性为某种“威胁”。格鲁施对此感到无比愤怒与作呕，因为他曾是一名空军校级军官（Field-grade officer），职级达到 GS-15 级文职人员（相当于中央情报局的陆军上校级别待遇）。然而，当他坐在参议院机密会议室（SCIF）里听到针对自己的敌对行动细节时，连在场的参议院幕僚们都被彻底吓傻了。
这起事件的严重程度让参议院的高级幕僚震惊到了极点。格鲁施回忆，当时一名非常资深的高级幕僚甚至走出密室，从办公室拿来一瓶威士忌，几位幕僚直接在 SCIF 里借酒压惊。大家惶恐不安地面面相觑，完全不敢相信情报系统的内部人员竟然认真探讨过“要不要干掉他妈的戴夫（David）”。万幸的是，这个暗杀图谋最终被叫停（kiboshed）。格鲁施直言，他深知是谁出面制止了这场杀身之祸，自己欠那些人一条命，但这背后牵扯太深，只能留待日后全面公开。暗杀虽然被取消，但随之而来的恐吓并未停止：就在格鲁施收到警告的几周后，甚至在有关会议结束之后，他和同行者依然在各类物品中发现被暗中跟踪的痕迹。格鲁施感慨道，虽然这听起来像天方夜谭，但他是一个深爱国家的爱国者，脱下军装至今都让他心如刀割；而那些人为了掩盖秘密，凭借对防御授权条款的极端解读，竟动过痛下杀手的念头。
- **军文职级背景**：格鲁施在美军曾任空军校级军官，转任情报文职后为 GS-15 级（对应军衔为上校/Colonel）。
- **暗杀企图与叫停**：国会资深幕僚在了解针对格鲁施的清算方案后极端恐慌，直接在保密设施（SCIF）内饮酒压惊；该清除行动随后被更高层强行叫停。
- **持续追踪**：行动被叫停后，格鲁施及其周边人员仍持续发现被跟踪定位的物理证据。
---
### [22:38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=1358s) 特朗普的决心、“本体论休克”与九一一式的凝聚力
罗根提到格鲁施此前的播客录制曾因航班延误而改期，格鲁施表示延期反倒非常巧合与幸运，因为近期局势正在以极快的速度演变。他观察到特朗普政府对 UAP 议题展现出了前所未有的严肃态度。格鲁施认为外界低估了唐纳德·特朗普所展现的政治勇气——他下令美国政府解密并公开所有关于该议题的已知真相。罗根好奇地追问，格鲁施所说的“勇气”是否意味着特朗普面临人身危险，格鲁施澄清，危险或许不在于刺杀，而在于信息公之于众后引发的“本体论休克”（ontological shock）、历史被颠覆所带来的巨大社会震荡与公众愤怒。
格鲁施认为，这种冲击将类似于“九一一”事件后的全美社会心理状态：虽然民众会经历对未知攻击和灾难的极度恐惧，但与此同时，也会诞生一种超越政治分歧的群体凝聚力。他大胆预测，在特朗普本届任期结束之前，真相将彻底大白。所谓“一切都将公之于众”，涵盖了格鲁施此前宣誓作证的全部核心内容：美国政府长期以来一直在研究该现象，回收了完好及半完好的非人类飞行器，回收了驾驶飞船的“异常智能”（anomalous intelligence/NHI），并且一直在秘密进行逆向工程研究。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: UAP 信息披露引发的社会与地缘冲击传导路径
accDescr: 展示白宫下令全面解密后，可能触发的本体论休克、逆向技术展示、多边外交与地缘政治震荡。
subgraph Phase1 ["白宫决策与解密指令"]
A["特朗普下令公开全部 UAP 档案"] --> B["终结数十年隐瞒历史"]
end
subgraph Phase2 ["核心事实全面浮出水面"]
B --> C["承认回收完好/半完好未知飞行器"]
B --> D["证实捕获地外/异常智慧生物 (NHI)"]
B --> E["解密数十年的逆向工程项目"]
end
subgraph Phase3 ["社会与地缘连锁反应"]
C & D & E --> F["公众面临本体论休克 (Ontological Shock)"]
F --> G["类似于 9/11 后的社会恐慌与集体凝聚"]
C & E --> H["多边外交危机与对立大国反应"]
D --> I["宗教哲学体系冲击 (梵蒂冈等)"]
end
```
---
### [24:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=1454s) 并非简单的考古挖掘：逆向工程、地缘博弈与地外实体反应
格鲁施强调，UAP 现象绝对不是一个摆在仓库里让人拍照参观的静态系统。许多高喊“全面公开、带我们去印第安纳·琼斯藏宝库一日游”的人，根本没有意识到处理这项事务需要何等谨慎。这绝非单纯的考古挖掘，而是一个牵涉多方互动的复杂生态链：
1. **地缘对手竞争**：中俄等战略竞争对手同样拥有各自的秘密回收研究项目，一旦美国单方面公开，对手将如何向本国国民交代？这会彻底打破现有的战略威慑平衡。
2. **非人类智能（NHI）的主动反应**：该现象背后存在真正的主体——无论称其为非人类智能（NHI）、访客还是“超界生物”（ultraterrestrial）。过去数十年来，政府智库曾向历任总统提交过多次正式评估报告，极其严肃地探讨过：人类一旦全球性公开它们的存在，是否会像《捉鬼敢死队》（Ghostbusters）里那样，直接触发这些地外智能实体的剧烈主动反应并现身全球。
3. **宗教与哲学冲击**：作为一名天主教徒，格鲁施指出梵蒂冈对这一领域进行过极其漫长的跟踪与研究，但始终保持沉默。公开真相势必引发广泛的宗教信仰危机。
谈及逆向工程，格鲁施纠正了罗根关于“照搬图纸逆向复制”的通俗理解。他指出，人类从这些残骸中获得的很多技术突破并非“一对一直接解锁了外星 iPhone”，而更多是一种“灵感启发”。科研人员在分析材料时，会惊叹于其特殊的频率选择性表面（frequency selective surface）等超导、超材料属性，进而将其启发应用到航天尖端领域。格鲁施本人就曾接触过这些基于灵感转化衍生出的国防安全级装备。
---
### [27:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=1634s) 白宫特勤的推手与“同为 Alpha”的嘴瓢时刻
对于解密进程受阻的原因，格鲁施指出，行政当局面临着复杂的多边外交困境，但更现实的阻碍来自“深层政府”（deep state）的物理封锁。田纳西州众议员蒂姆·伯切特（Tim Burchett）近期在播客中透露，白宫高级顾问斯蒂芬·米勒（Stephen Miller）曾致电给他，抱怨自己在试图调阅某些 UAP 核心绝密项目时遭到了物理层面的准入阻拦（physically blocked）。格鲁施对斯蒂芬·米勒在幕后攻坚此事的强硬作风表示赞赏，称米勒像一只凶狠的比特犬、“领头狼（alpha dog）”，紧接着顺嘴接了一句“作为同为 Alpha 的人，我很欣赏他的冲劲”。
这句话瞬间引来了罗根的无情嘲讽。罗根直接打断并笑道：“说自己是个‘同为 Alpha 的人’可太傻了，你知道吧？这会让你招来天量的群嘲。”格鲁施有些尴尬地笑认：“我知道，我知道，人无完人，但我确实非常欣赏他正在幕后死磕这件事情的狂热劲头。”罗根随即分享了自己的亲身经历：他曾在白宫举办的一场 UFC 赛事期间短暂碰到过斯蒂芬·米勒，米勒主动走过来拍着胸脯对他说道：“UFO 的真相就要公开了。”罗根当场回应：“好啊，那就赶紧的吧，我们拭目以待！”
格鲁施总结道，特朗普本人对这一主题理解深刻，完全清楚其背后的深远影响。尽管格鲁施平时自嘲是一个极度悲观、愤世嫉俗的怀疑论者，但他现在看到白宫核心团队的决心，以及国家情报首席副总监（PDDNI）已经开始签署大范围的保密协议豁免书（NDA waivers），这表明清算阻碍的程序正在运转。他相信，掌控这些绝密项目的人最终必须服从总统的解密行政命令，在不久的将来，人类社会将迎来一个不可逆转的全新范式。
### [29:56](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=1796s) 1952 年蓝皮书计划录音与核试验场的神秘球体
大卫·格鲁什（David Grusch）指出，当前关于 UAP（不明异常现象）的信息公开进程如同一场精心布局的棋局。尽管公众对官方目前披露的那些“低垂果实”式的录像和录音并不完全满意，但幕后的实质性证据正在逐步浮出水面。格鲁什透露，在他离开众议员埃里克·伯利森（Eric Burlison）办公室前不久，他们获得了一份录制于 1952 年、此前仍处于机密状态的“蓝皮书计划”（Project Blue Book）官方录音。该录音极为严肃地讨论了 UAP 的严峻性，并详细记录了当时在核设施与武器试验场周边频发的离奇事件。
令人震惊的是，这份已被解密的录音中所提及的敏感地点，与现代美军遭遇不明异常活动的区域高度重合，其中包括美国西南部的多个试验场。格鲁什坦言，虽然这些地点的具体代号在开源情报和民间研究圈中早已传开，但美国行政部门至今从未公开承认是哪些具体的测试与训练靶场在频繁目击这些“无法解释的神秘发光球体（orbs）”骚扰美军直升机。
- **1952 年蓝皮书计划机密录音**：记录了冷战初期军方对核设施周边频繁出现的 UAP 现象的高度警惕。
- **地理重合性**：70 多年前记录的异常活跃区域，与现代美军在西南部绝密靶场目睹不明球体逼近、骚扰直升机的热点区域完全一致。
---
### [30:49](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=1849s) 深层政府的阻力与“免除监督项目”的政治博弈
当乔·罗根问及特朗普在推进信息公开时是否正遭遇阻力时，格鲁什给出了极其肯定的回答。格鲁什直言，国家安全机构内部（所谓的“深层政府”）历来对政治任命官员以及国会议员抱有一种骨子里的鄙夷与防备：“作为一名前深层政府内部人员，我很清楚他们总是认为这些政客缺乏对这项机密应有的敬畏之心，觉得他们迟早会搞砸，或者在不该开口的时候走漏风声。”这也正是为何某些高度机密的特殊项目会被划定为“免除监督项目”（Waived SAPs），依法直接向国会隐瞒。
在历任总统中，极少有人能真正触及该议题的核心。格鲁什指出，老布什（George H.W. Bush）凭借其中情局局长的背景获得了完全知情权，民间流传的许多关于他的传言基本属实；而前副总统迪克·切尼（Dick Cheney）更是常年扮演着类似“黑帮教父”的角色，深涉该体系的核心运作。面对新一届政府的公开命令，安全体系目前正采取类似“试水（cat's paw）”的拖延与试探策略——每次只放出极少量的边缘信息，以此观察白宫的应对节奏。格鲁什强调，如果特朗普能够顶住阻力强行兑现公开承诺，无论外界对其外交或国内政策有何争议，“他都将成为名留青史的历史传奇（the GOAT）”。他建议必须在 2028 年大选之前启动不可逆的交接程序，确保这项遗产由后继者无缝延续。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 核心保密机制与政治层级的权力隔离
accDescr: 展示免除监督项目如何向国会与普通政客封锁，仅极少数情报核心掌握控制权
subgraph Core["特权掌控核心"]
A["核心执掌者<br/>(如老布什、迪克·切尼等情报元老)"]
B["绝密回收与逆向工程程序<br/>(Waived Programs)"]
A <--> B
end
subgraph Politics["常规政治架构"]
C["国会议员与政客"]
D["常规白宫行政团队"]
end
subgraph Tactics["应对公开指令的策略"]
E["视作潜在泄密风险<br/>(缺乏'敬畏之心')"]
F["试水战术 (Cat's Paw)<br/>仅释放边缘低价值信息拖延时间"]
end
B -. 依法隐瞒.-> C
Core --> E
E --> F
F --> D
```
---
### [32:55](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=1975s) 渐进式脱敏方案与大国之间的地缘竞争
对于信息披露所需的时间表，格鲁什解释称，过去智库为历任总统起草的机密评估报告中，通常主张采取一种渐进式的“麻醉与气候适应过程（anesthetization and acclimatization process）”。其核心逻辑是通过分阶段释出信息，先让公众对这一议题产生认知疲劳并逐步脱敏，待舆论情绪冷却归于常态后，再抛出真正具有颠覆性、令人震撼的实质证据。
然而，格鲁什认为这种长周期的缓慢公开在当下极为危险，极易被战略对手趁虚而入，全盘计划应压缩在 12 个月内迅速落地。中俄等国随时可能利用美国的拖延打出情报地缘牌。格鲁什特别提到，中国早在 2020 年 6 月美国国防部宣布成立 UAP 任务组时，便通过《南华早报》公开披露其军方同样设有专门的 UAP 调查部门，并正运用尖端人工智能算法对这些遭遇事件进行全面分析；而在幕后，中国显然还运行着级别更高、更为深度的绝密项目。
- **脱敏机制**：通过阶段性释放边缘物证，人为调控大众心理耐受度，避免社会结构产生剧烈震荡。
- **战略窗口风险**：过度冗长的脱敏期会放大人员变动风险、告密者抢跑以及地缘对手的技术赶超。
- **中国公开的应对**：2020 年 6 月中国军方公开证实利用 AI 分析境内 UAP 事件，幕后则同步维持着深层的应对体系。
---
### [34:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=2066s) 坠毁还是“馈赠”？特洛伊木马假说与地缘检索
针对乔·罗根关于战略对手是否拥有坠毁飞船的提问，格鲁什明确证实各国之间存在着“平行运作的项目”。罗根随即引述了戴安娜·帕苏尔卡（Diana Pasulka）教授与加里·诺兰（Garry Nolan）博士的观点——他们将这些坠落物称作非人类智能主动作出的“技术馈赠（donations）”。格鲁什对此表示高度认同，并坦言自己知晓历史上确实存在某些完好无损着陆、绝非坠毁的回收案例。
```text
关于完好着陆 UAP 意图的双重假说：
┌─────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┐
│ 假说一：认知测试与启发（"向大猩猩扔香蕉"） │
│ 投放超前技术装置，测试人类能否解析其结构，以此激发人类基础科学跨越。 │
├─────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┤
│ 假说二：情报军官视角下的特洛伊木马（Trojan Horse） │
│ 诱导人类沉迷于某种不可替代的奇异技术架构，构建资源或技术依赖性， │
│ 最终形成被非人类智能（NHI）深度掌控的行为闭环（Control Loop）。 │
└─────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘
```
当被问及这种“技术馈赠”是否在世界各大国之间均匀分布时，格鲁什表示自己并不掌握全球回收事件的具体统计分布数据，但他确信美国本土已经回收了相当数量的实体样本。
---
### [36:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=2186s) 冷战时期的 UAP 热线协议与印度反卫星突发事件
在冷战最紧张的时期，美苏两大核大国曾就 UAP 达成过不可思议的战略默契。格鲁什详细介绍了 1971 年 9 月签署的《防止核战争意外爆发措施协定》（Accident Measures Agreement of 1971）。该条约第三条白纸黑字明确规定：双方一旦在其关键通信枢纽或核设施周边监测到不明飞行物，必须立即通过最高热线向对方核实通报，以防误判引发全面核战争。2013 年，乔治·华盛顿大学国家安全档案馆解密了该条约的机密附件，其中甚至公布了专门用于核查 UAP 异常活动的核闪烁（Nuke Flash）代码（如“Adam-222”、“Adam-333”）。
格鲁什对比指出，尽管美苏早在冷战时期就建立了弹道导弹与太空发射的通报机制，但令人不寒而栗的是，**直到今天，美中之间依然没有签署任何弹道导弹发射的相互通报条约**。中国即便在沿海进行潜射弹道导弹（SLBM）试射，在国际法上也无需提前通知美方，这迫使北美防空司令部（NORAD）、导弹预警中心以及位于马里兰州劳雷尔的 DEFSMAC（国防特别导弹与航天分析中心）必须时刻保持最高级别的实战警惕。
随后，格鲁什分享了一段他在美国国家侦察局（NRO）作战中心值班时的真实亲历：2019 年 3 月，印度军方在未向美国发出任何事先通报的情况下，突然实施了一次代号为“沙克蒂行动（Mission Shakti）”的反卫星导弹（ASAT）实弹拦截测试，当场击毁了印度自己的一颗退役气象卫星。当时作为值班情报副总监、负责为局长准备总统每日简报（PDB）的格鲁什陷入极度紧张：
> “作战中心的所有保密电话同时疯狂响动，我们必须拼命给使馆打电话质问到底发生了什么！由于 NRO 的核心使命就是运营美国的绝密间谍卫星星座，我们极度担忧爆炸产生的轨道碎片云会摧毁在轨的战略资产。我穿着制服一路在走廊上狂奔，冲向轨道分析员的值班大厅，盯着闪烁的大屏幕嘶吼着让他们立刻计算碎片扩散轨道，确认美方间谍卫星是否需要紧急机动变轨，随后又火速冲向局长办公室汇报情况……”
- **1971 年美苏协定第三条**：历史上首次在公开外交条约中设立针对 UAP 的战略核热线机制，防止因外星飞行物侵入核设施而触发核反击。
- **美中通报机制空白**：当下亚太战略博弈中，双方缺乏潜射弹道导弹预警通知机制，极易因突发航天活动产生战略误判。
- **2019 年印度 ASAT 危机**：印度无预警击毁轨道目标引发灾难性碎片扩散，直接导致 NRO 作战中心紧急启动最高级别太空资产防御机动预警。
### [39:37](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=2377s) 其他国家的残骸与“韩国建筑掩盖巨大飞行器”传闻
乔·罗根向大卫·格鲁施提问，除了中国、俄罗斯和美国之外，是否还有其他国家据称拥有这些地外载具的残骸。格鲁施明确给出了肯定的回答，但当罗根追问具体包含哪些国家时，格鲁施收住了话头，表示这涉及极其敏感的安全机密，自己不能深入展开。
罗根随即抛出了一个在 UAP 圈内流传甚广的经典传闻：据说某地曾发现过一架尺寸大到根本无法移动的飞行器，军方只得就地在其周围建造了一座巨型建筑将其隐藏起来，而这处设施据说位于韩国。格鲁施听后试图以“都市传说”打马虎眼，罗根立刻调侃戳穿：“哦，你明明就知道！少来这套，你上网肯定也听过这个传言吧？”格鲁施笑着承认在网上看过这类流言，但面对罗根进一步探寻虚实时，他机智地打起了太极：“咱们还是把这事留给联邦政府去解释吧。”
### [40:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=2430s) 物理背景与情报生涯：从“X档案”少年到无意接触秘密项目
面对罗根关于他个人是否亲历过任何超自然或目击现象的提问，格鲁施给出了出人意料的清醒回答。他表示自己与许多自称“童年目击过光球”的幽浮学界人士完全不同，自己从无任何非同寻常的亲身经历。格鲁施在大学拿的是物理学学位，同时也是一名从十二三岁初中时期就开始观测天空的资深业余天文学家。除了在夜空中见过一些疑似人造卫星过境的微弱亮点外，他在现实生活中从未遇到过任何“超自然惊悚事件（spooky woo stuff）”，也从未被所谓的“外星访客”拜访过。
格鲁施坦言，正是这种纯理性的背景让他保持着开放的心态。作为一名生于80年代、成长于90年代的少年，他看着《X档案》（*The X-Files*）和《星际迷航：下一代》（*Star Trek: The Next Generation*）长大，早熟的他读着斯蒂芬·霍金的《时间简史》与艾萨克·阿西莫夫的科幻巨著，推演着德雷克方程（Drake equation），深信宇宙中极大概率存在地外生命。当他刚踏入情报界时，第一件事就像所有刚从情报学校毕业的年轻人一样，好奇地在绝密数据库里搜索“51区”和“UFO”，但当时什么异常也没查到。直到2009年左右，他偶然读到了国防情报局（DIA）先进航空航天武器系统应用项目（AAWSAP）编写的“国防情报参考文件”（DIRDs），里面详细探讨了磁流体动力学推进（magnetohydrodynamic propulsion）和隐形遮蔽等前沿技术。格鲁施当时完全没意识到这些研究与地外飞行器有关，多年后他才猛然惊醒：原来自己曾在不知情的情况下参与了一项绝密项目，该项目表面上是常规任务，背后实际是在搜寻 UAP。军方直接套用了现有的国家安全常规情报搜集架构来支持坠毁物检索计划，因为“没人会为了搞清是否有坠毁物而重新发明轮子、搭建一套完全隔离的基础设施”。
### [43:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=2588s) 图像涂抹、“抽烟人”招募与中情局高官的私下问询
格鲁施透露，在军旅情报生涯大约第十年时，一些图像分析师曾向他私下透露：“嘿，戴夫，上面命令我们把航拍照片里的某些东西抹掉（airbrush），那些物体都是圆形的。”格鲁施当时只能安抚对方，推测那可能是某种未经授权查看的高度涉密资产。此外，早年他还经历过一次长达一年、如同《X档案》中“抽烟人”（Smoking Man）风格的离奇招募过程，对方声称将赋予他接触某些不可思议绝密项目的特殊权限，但最终该招募无疾而终，被格鲁施抛在了脑后。
转折点发生在2017年春季。当时格鲁施正身处中情局（CIA），向中央情报局副局长及其幕僚汇报一系列国防部涉密项目。汇报结束后，中情局一个极敏感办公室的主管将他悄悄拉到一旁低声询问：“戴夫，你对 UFO 了解多少？我听说五角大楼那边专门有个项目……”格鲁施当时一脸茫然。三十岁出头的格鲁施当时身居高信任度职位，几乎接触过国防部绝大多数特殊保密项目和情报界数百项行动，但对此却一无所知。直到2017年底至2018年，汤姆·德隆（Tom DeLonge）与星际艺术与科学学院（TTSA）推动 UAP 议题走入公众视野，格鲁施才真正从专业情报角度萌发了调查兴趣。2019年初，他被正式指派为国家侦察局（NRO）派驻海军 UAP 调查组（后演变为国防部 UAP 专案组）的代表，正式开启了他的核心调查之路。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 格鲁施进入UAP调查核心的历史轨迹
accDescr: 展现从早期接触边缘文件到被正式任命为UAP专案组代表的演进过程
subgraph Phase1["启蒙与潜伏期 (2009–2016)"]
A["阅读DIA参考文件 (AAWSAP/DIRDs)"] --> B["参与常规情报搜集<br/>(实则暗中用于UAP追踪)"]
B --> C["图像分析师透露修图指令<br/>经历类似'抽烟人'招募接触"]
end
subgraph Phase2["觉醒与切入期 (2017–2019)"]
D["2017春：CIA极敏感部门高官私下问询"] --> E["2018：民间媒体公开报道激化专业兴趣"]
E --> F["2019初：出任NRO派驻UAP专案组官方代表"]
end
Phase1 --> Phase2
```
### [45:05](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=2705s) 2004年布什政府披露利弊评估与国防采办欺诈危机
罗根将话题引向2004年小布什政府委托哈尔·普特霍夫（Hal Puthoff）及多位顶尖学者评估“UAP 信息披露利弊”的绝密会议。格鲁施证实，这场会议确实于2004年11月在北弗吉尼亚州的一家联邦资助研发中心（FFRDC）举行，五角大楼全域异常解决办公室（AARO）在其第一卷报告中也不得不承认该会议的存在，却轻描淡写地将其定性为一次“纯假设性推演”。格鲁施尖锐地反问：“如果这件事压根不是真的，国家安全高层为什么非要煞费苦心地做一个‘假设性’推演？至今没人能合理解释。”该会议据传由时任国家安全顾问斯蒂芬·哈德利（Stephen Hadley）发起赞助，尽管哈德利出于机密考虑对此予以否认。
罗根解释，当年与会智囊团将“披露真相”对社会各层面的正面与负面冲击逐项赋予数值，并通过电脑系统进行加权计算。结果显示，几乎所有评估领域中负面影响都远超正面，促使白宫最终作出了拒绝公开的决定。格鲁施指出，阻止真相大白的核心考量并非一般人所想的“公众能否承受世界观崩塌的本体论冲击（ontological shock）”，更非担心千禧一代心智脆弱，而是深层次的**联邦采办合规灾难与合同欺诈法律风险**：
- **排他性垄断与资金挪用**：数十年间，军方仅向少数几家指定的核心军工承包商提供单一来源合同（sole-source contracts），赋予其对残骸材料的独家接触权，供其开展独立研发（IR&D）并将逆向工程成果倒卖回政府。
- **违反国防采办法规（DFARS）**：数以千计被排除在外的中小型防务公司一旦知情，必将以违反《国防联邦采办条例补充规定》（DFARS）为由将联邦政府告上最高法院，追索数百亿美元的历史赔偿。
- **审批滥用与工业界内耗**：军方过去频繁滥用“单一来源理由与批准书”（J&A），以国家安全为借口冻结竞争，导致严峻的群体思维和人才流失，实质上重创了美国国防工业基地的活力。
格鲁施最后展望，未来政府若想推行披露，必须着手重构国防工业体系。一旦将非核心敏感的基础科学原理从军工黑箱释放至学术界，构建起本科、研究生至博士后的完整科研生态，将引发美国科技创新的“黄金时代”。而对比之下，中国凭借集中体制直接从南京大学等顶尖高校无缝抽调顶尖科研人员进入研发项目，完全不必顾虑合同违规、资金挪用或对国会撒谎等程序法网的制约。
### [48:51](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=2931s) 赦免机制与“真相与和解”构想
谈及揭露外星接触与逆向工程项目可能面临的法律问责，纪录片《揭露时代》（Age of Disclosure）曾提出必须设立某种大赦机制（Amnesty Program）。David Grusch 对此表示赞同，认为只要提供针对特定证词的豁免权（Use Immunity）即可，但不能包庇那些真正犯下残暴恶行的核心分子。Grusch 强调，参与该生态系统的大多数人本质上都是尽忠职守的普通美国人，然而极少数人却干下了“难以启口的可怕勾当”。他透露，在调查过程中自己甚至遭遇了实质性的生命威胁，对方一度想杀他灭口；这也是他最终被迫走向举报人道路的核心导火索。
面对这些严重的违法行为，Grusch 坚持走正规的司法与法律途径，绝不主张私刑解决。他回忆在展开调查的艰难阶段，为了防范不测，他与同事曾穿戴防弹背心、全副武装赴会，足见当时的局势何等凶险。他提议效仿 1990 年代后种族隔离时期的南非“真相与和解委员会”（Truth and Reconciliation Commission, TRC）模式：允许涉事人员坦白罪行换取豁免，以此换取全面的历史真相。毕竟许多参与该项目的基层科学家与管理者都是签字画押受限的守法公民，如果不提供免受叛国罪指控（如被送往莱文沃思军事监狱或面临死刑）的安全通道，真正的核心机密将永远无法公之于众。
- **大赦原则**：区分体制内被迫执行命令的人员与极少数犯下严重违法罪行（如谋杀与人身威胁）的核心主谋。
- **调查险境**：Grusch 在核查项目黑幕期间必须在武装保卫和防弹衣掩护下与关键知情人士碰头。
- **保密代价**：项目参与人员签署的严苛保密协议附带极重法律后果，动辄涉及叛国罪和极刑。
---
### [50:55](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=3055s) 等离子体生命与磁流体动力学推进
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: UAP等离子体现象的双重假说
accDescr: 对发光球体UAP本质的两种理论解释路径：纯意识等离子体形态与物理航天器的推进附带产物。
subgraph NonPhysical["非实体 / 意识模型"]
A["发光球体 (Orbs)"] --> B["有感知的等离子体 (Sentient Plasmoids)"]
B --> C["跨维度/虫洞探针"]
end
subgraph Physical["实体机械 / 推进系统模型"]
A --> D["实体机械航天器"]
D --> E["磁流体动力学推进 (MHD)"]
E --> F["空气电离形成等离子体护套"]
F --> G["洛伦兹力控制气动与转向"]
end
```
当 Joe Rogan 询问目前已知的 UAP 技术细节与能力时，Grusch 将其划分为“实体航天器”与“非物理/能量形态智能”两大部分。针对军方多次记录到的发光球体（Orbs），Grusch 提出了一种理论假说：它们可能是“具备自我意识的等离子体”（Sentient Plasmoids）。这种存在形态宛如透过某种虫洞从其他维度或智能体系发射进我们现实世界的能量探针。公开学术界近年已有相关论文探讨等离子体基生命形式的可能性，这挑战了人类将生命局限于碳基肉身的传统狭隘认知。
另一种更为符合已知物理学的解释，则是这些球体内部包含实体航天器，外表的高亮光晕只是推进系统产生的等离子体护罩。Grusch 提到，早期先进航空武器系统应用计划（AAWSAP）曾发布过一份关于“磁流体动力学”（Magnetohydrodynamics, MHD）推进系统的国防情报参考文件（DIRD）。MHD 推进类似于电影《追击赤色十月》（The Hunt for Red October）中描绘的潜艇履带驱动装置：在空气中，航天器通过超高电压将空气电离成导电等离子体，再利用垂直磁场施加的洛伦兹力（Lorentz force）实现无机动舵面的超高速转向与推进，其外在表现正是被一团等离子体球紧紧包裹。
- **感知等离子体理论**：高等智能可能早已跨越肉体束缚，以纯能量与等离子态形式演化，或借助量子通道在不同宇宙区域投射意识载具。
- **MHD 推进特征**：在大气层内以磁流体动力学飞行必然产生剧烈的等离子体辉光，形成外界目击的“发光发热球体”。
---
### [53:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=3195s) 量子意识假说与 Orch OR 模型
对于意识究竟如何脱离血肉之躯而存在，Joe Rogan 指出，外星智慧很可能早已认识到碳基“肉身容器”（Meat Suit）的脆弱与局限，从而进化到了非物质实体或纯能量状态，甚至意识本身就是宇宙中无处不在的基础属性。Grusch 对此表示，在众多意识理论中，他最青睐罗杰·彭罗斯（Roger Penrose）与斯图尔特·哈梅罗夫（Stuart Hameroff）共同提出的“微管协同客观归约理论”（Orch OR）。
该理论指出，神经元内部的微管结构构成了室温量子系统，能够在无需宏观观察者介入的情况下自主引发波函数坍缩，从而产生主观意识。Grusch 曾与哈梅罗夫直接交流，他认为这一理论如果成立，便能合理解释量子纠缠、意念遥测、心灵感应乃至远程遥视（Remote Viewing）等传统科学难以解释的超常感知机制——如果意识的本质是纠缠态的量子网络，那么跨越空间的信息互通与非局域互动便在物理逻辑上完全说得通。
---
### [54:54](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=3294s) 实体航天器的外形分类与起源迷雾
回到确凿的实体飞行器上，Grusch 确认军方回收到的非人造物具有丰富多样的几何外形。除闻名遐迩的“飞船薄荷糖”（Tic Tac）形态外，还包括蛋形、各式圆盘、类似靴后跟（Boot Heel）的构造、翻车鱼状（Sunfish）、回旋镖形以及新月形飞行器。他打比方说，这就像保时捷 911 或福特野马，外形特征往往直接受制于其底层的动力系统与推进科技要求；同时这也暗示着不同的外型可能源于不同的地外文明或不同谱系的生命演化分支。
```mermaid
flowchart LR
accTitle: 回收航天器外形分类谱系
accDescr: 军方回收项目中已确认记录的多种UAP几何外形分布。
A["已回收物理载具"] --> B["规则几何类"]
A --> C["非对称与特殊造型"]
B --> B1["Tic Tac (圆柱胶囊)"]
B --> B2["蛋形 (Egg)"]
B --> B3["飞碟/圆盘 (Discs)"]
C --> C1["靴后跟形 (Boot Heel)"]
C --> C2["翻车鱼形 (Sunfish)"]
C --> C3["回旋镖与新月形 (Boomerang/Crescent)"]
```
当被追问这些造物究竟来自哪个恒星系统时，Grusch 坦承自己从未获得过最终确认的星图来源信息。他从前情报军官的审慎视角分析，即使非人类智能（NHI）在交互中声称来自某某星系，也有可能是高度伪装的反情报欺骗策略（Denial and Deception）。除了传统的“地外起源说”（Extraterrestrial），“超维度/本土隐秘起源说”（Ultraterrestrial）同样占据重要比重。这些造物表现出的特质似乎在地球上扎根已久，甚至与地球生命的底层逻辑存在极其诡异的相似性，引发了关于基因工程干涉、古老演化分支乃至变色龙隐蔽技术的深层疑团。
- **形态谱系**：回收物展现出高度复杂的工业与技术谱系，非单一模型所能概括。
- **情报反欺骗**：直接根据自述判断起源在情报学上极不可靠，外星来源声明亦可能是高纬度智能的信息误导。
---
### [56:37](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=3397s) 生物遗骸检验与基因对比工程
针对 NHI 与人类生物结构的关联性，Grusch 证实内部确实开展过深入的基因组对比研究。当 Rogan 确认是否存在针对生物残骸（“Dead cadavers”）的实体研究时，Grusch 斩钉截铁地回答：“百分之百属实。”他明确证实自己曾亲眼调阅过涉及这部分生物遗骸提取与研究的视音频档案证据，这是他笃定该事实存在的核心依据。不过出于保护原始信息源的考虑，他必须对具体涉及的项目代号与细节保持谨慎。
揭露这些机密让 Grusch 付出了极为惨痛的个人代价。他解释道，由于面临严重的体制内迫害与安全胁迫，他在年限未满时便不得不提前从美国空军辞任军官职务（Resign Commission），导致他错失晋升中校（Lieutenant Colonel）的资格，且至今未能拿到应有的退休金与退伍军人福利。在过去一年多里，他一直在向空军委员会申请行政复议，努力争取恢复自己应得的退役待遇与名誉。Grusch 强调，自己之所以用极其审慎的态度对待公开发言，是因为深知全面信息公开将给整个人类社会带来不可预测的冲击。
### [58:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=3528s) 坠毁回收现场的遗体录像与真实性交叉验证
大卫·格鲁施（David Grusch）向乔·罗根（Joe Rogan）披露，他曾亲眼看过一段拍摄于某次特定回收行动（retrieval activity）中的坠毁现场录像。画面记录了躺在地面的死者遗体（cadavers）。乔·罗根追问他是肉眼亲见还是通过视频观看，格鲁施确认是通过视频资料。当被问及录像的具体年代时，格鲁施表示不愿透露具体年份以防缩小行动范围导致情报泄露，但他明确指出这是“现代（contemporary）”的清晰影像，绝非 1950 年代那种模糊的黑白老胶片。
格鲁施解释说，作为一名长期从事反情报与情报分析的专业人员，他对虚假信息有着极强的戒备心理，尤其是如今伴随 Sora 等前沿 AI 生成工具的发展，极度逼真的虚假影像制作变得轻而易举。因此，在经手各类文件和视听素材时，他秉持着近乎严苛的审慎态度（anal-retentive），会通过独立的情报搜集渠道（collection）进行交叉验证。格鲁施将这些资料压在手中数年，直到彻底确信这绝非某种“有限暴露（limited hangout）”或军方/情报界的欺骗性心理战操作后，才采信其真实性。
- **录像性质**：某次现代坠毁回收行动中实地拍摄的现场录像，清晰度极高。
- **验证手段**：不依赖单一来源，通过其他情报搜集渠道与方法进行数年的独立交叉核实，排除 AI 伪造或内部心理战欺骗（psyop）。
---
### [01:00:05](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=3605s) 类人遗体的外貌特征与“希腊神祇”之谜
关于视频中遗体的具体模样，格鲁施给出了令人意外的描述：这些遗体具有高度的人类形态（human looking），外貌甚至称得上“非常美丽（very beautiful）”。乔·罗根追问其肤色是否像溺水者一样发青，格鲁施纠正称，其肤色呈现为一种极其苍白、类似白化病（albino）般的“蓝白色（bluish white）”。这番描述立刻让人联想到退役空军少将威廉·麦卡斯兰（General William McCaslin）当年向摇滚音乐人汤姆·德隆（Tom DeLonge）透露的信息——麦卡斯兰曾反复提示德隆“多想想希腊神祇（think of the Greek gods）”。格鲁施感叹，在目睹这些素材后，他终于理解了麦卡斯兰将军当年这番隐晦言论的含义。
话题随即转向了麦卡斯兰将军本人神秘离奇的失踪事件。2026 年 2 月，就在特朗普下达 UAP 解密行政令的一周之内，麦卡斯兰少将走出其位于阿尔伯克基的住所后便人间蒸发。格鲁施与司法部（DOJ）等调查机构保持联系，但迄今无人知晓这位关键人物的下落。麦卡斯兰出门时没有携带手机等可追踪设备，仅带走了一支枪支；而在失踪前一天，他还在户外用品店 REI 购买了医疗急救包和户外装备，原计划与 18 位友人同行出游。尽管执法记录仪中其妻子的陈述提及他有一些并不严重的老龄及心理困扰，但她认为绝无自杀倾向，整个失踪案在解密指令落下的当口显得极为诡异。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 坠毁现场录像与麦卡斯兰线索关联
accDescr: 展示格鲁施看到的影像特征与麦卡斯兰将军“希腊神祇”线索及离奇失踪的关联
subgraph S1["视听证据（现代录像）"]
A["回收行动现场录像"] --> B["3至4具苍白蓝白色遗体"]
B --> C["高相似度人类形态、长发、极具美感"]
end
subgraph S2["历史关联与关键人物"]
D["麦卡斯兰将军暗示：'希腊神祇'"] --> E["特朗普签署UAP解密命令（2026年2月）"]
E --> F["麦卡斯兰少将一周内于阿尔伯克基神秘失踪"]
end
C -.->|"特征吻合"| D
```
- **遗体外貌特征**：极似人类、外形极具美感、长发（偏灰白色）、肤色呈苍白蓝白色。
- **性别与衣着**：扫过的镜头中性别显得较为模糊（amorphous），身着某种贴身紧身衣物（form-fitting），但由于非微距特写无法断定具体材质。
- **麦卡斯兰失踪案疑点**：失踪时间与总统解密命令出台紧密重叠，出门未携手机、佩枪缺失，前一天仍正常购买急救物资。
---
### [01:02:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=3740s) 关联人员的死亡疑云与公开透明的呼吁
乔·罗根提到坊间流传有多位涉猎逆向工程、材料科学或 UAP 解密的科学家遭遇不测或神秘失踪。格鲁施对此持谨慎态度，认为外界传言部分存在夸大其词，例如曾任职于空军研究实验室（AFRL）的某位女材料科学家的事件，并不一定与 UAP 存在直接因果联系。然而，唯一真正让他感到毛骨悚然且痛心的是其空军战友马修·沙利文（Matthew Sullivan，代号“Quake”）。沙利文曾与格鲁施一同服现役，是涉足该绝密项目圈的核心知情者之一，也是格鲁施调查的重要消息源。大约两年前，沙利文离奇死亡，该案目前仍处于未结案的调查状态（open investigation），格鲁施因其已故才公开透露其名字。
谈到未来是否能公开这段包含外星遗体的视频，格鲁施认为极有可能。但在当前公众对政府信任度跌至谷底的社会氛围下，单凭一段视频已无法平息质疑——公众只会认定“这是政府在用 CG 特效愚弄大众”。因此，真正的“全面解密（disclosure）”必须伴随实物证据的公开展示：不仅要将实体飞船推到史密森尼国家航空航天博物馆的乌德沃尔哈齐中心（Steven F. Udvar-Hazy Center）供人检视，还应设立完全独立的民事科研审查机制，将生物样本交予政府体系之外的独立学者和机构展开多方实证检验。
- **知情人士离奇死亡**：空军军官兼核心线人马修·沙利文（代号“Quake”）两年前神秘身亡，案件仍在调查中。
- **解密的信任困境**：公众信任极低，仅靠视频或影像无法立足，必须结合实物展览与独立的外部科研检测。
- **遗体后续处置**：据格鲁施了解，回收的生物遗体均被低温冷冻（freeze）并置于长期保存状态，供内部科研项目持续分析。
### [01:07:43](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=4063s) 人类起源假设：断裂文明、基因工程与本体论冲击
谈话从希腊诸神为何拥有超乎常人的完美外表展开。David Grusch 探讨了关于“断裂人类文明”（Breakaway Human Civilization）的构想——或许在已知历史之前就存在过更高级的古老文明。Joe Rogan 指出，越来越多的人开始关注吉萨金字塔下方的未解构造以及世界各地的巨石遗迹。Grusch 提到自己平时也关注 Graham Hancock 和 Randall Carlson 的研究，但他提出了一个根本性疑问：如果地外智慧生物是完全在地球之外独立演化出来的，它们为何会长得与人类如此惊人地相似？从生物演化概率来看，这完全说不通，除非存在某种基因工程操作。
Rogan 随即提到 Bob Lazar 的核心观点：人类本质上是外星基因工程改造的产物。Grusch 指出，一旦这一假说被证实，将对人类的主权认同（human sovereignty）和“何以为人”的定义造成极其深远的冲击。Rogan 感叹这种文化认知上的双重标准：人类心安理得地接受全能的神无中生有创造了万物，但若得知自己是被某种高度进化、形同神明的地外智慧生命在实验室里操纵出来的，就会感到无比不安与抵触。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 人类与非人类智慧生物起源假说
accDescr: 对非人类智慧生物与人类高度相似性的三种推测解释路径
A["外貌与人类高度相似的生物"] --> B{"演化逻辑解释"}
B --> C["假说一：断裂人类文明<br/>史前古老文明延续/分化"]
B --> D["假说二：基因工程改造<br/>人类系外星实体定向操控产物"]
B --> E["假说三：接触适应机制<br/>生物工程定制外形以减轻人类认知冲击"]
```
### [01:09:41](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=4181s) 坠毁回收现场：目击存活外星实体的证词
Grusch 坦言，自己在调查过程中最大的遗憾是没有拿到生物学评估报告（Biological Assessment Reports）。当时他正面临来自体制内外的巨大阻力、威胁甚至人身危险，无法触及由科学家直接分析生物遗体的机密分支。但他拥有关系密切的友人，他们曾直接参与不明飞行物回收任务，并在坠毁现场亲眼见到了那些生物。
当 Rogan 追问这些生物是否存活时，Grusch 确认有同事目睹了**活着的**非人类智慧实体（NHI）。令人意外的是，他们见到的并非那些外貌酷似希腊神明的类人实体，而是流行文化中常被提及的爬行动物型（Reptilian）以及典型的小灰人（Grays）。Grusch 提到了 1994 年津巴布韦阿里尔学校（Ariel School）的群体目击事件，当时数十名小学生目睹了从透镜状飞碟中走出的细小灰色人形生物，那次事件就发生在铀矿附近。针对为何外星人会采用人类可接受的形象，两人探讨了电影《超时空接触》（Contact）中外星智慧选择以女主角父亲的形象现身的设定——如果是人工合成或生物工程定制的躯壳，这种设计能极大减少“本体论冲击”（ontological shock），使沟通更为顺畅。Grusch 幽默地表示，他把这些生物看作自己在西弗吉尼亚州的远房亲戚，“虽然属于家族的不同分支，但我完全愿意和他们坐下来喝一杯”。
- **关于知情权的不公**：Rogan 与 Grusch 一致认为，绝不能任由未经选举的官僚机构和国防承包商独占这些足以改变人类文明轨迹的真相，普通公众完全有权利知道世界的真实全貌。
- **吹哨者的无奈**：Grusch 强调自己曾是空军少校和情报界中高层文职人员，本无意成为公众吹哨人，但官僚体制内的恶意打压与胁迫最终将他逼向了公开曝光的道路。
### [01:13:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=4424s) 天空之战：地外势力的冲突、飞船外形与 Tic Tac 的真相
面对 Rogan 提出的疑问——“这些掌握神级技术的飞船为什么老是在坠毁？”Grusch 给出了一个惊人答案：部分坠毁并非机械故障，而是源自**不同非人类智慧种族之间的交战**（NHI versus NHI）。Rogan 立即联想到古印度史诗《摩诃婆罗多》（Mahabharata）和《薄伽梵歌》（Bhagavad Gita）等吠陀经典中记载的天空交战与“蓝皮肤神明”。Grusch 表示虽然他不记得目击报告中的实体皮肤像画作中那么蓝，但他确认实体死前因挣扎而出现的死后变化（post-mortem changes）会导致肤色变暗。
随后，Grusch 详细归纳了他在内部调查中掌握的不同种族与飞行器形态的对应关系：
| 智慧实体类型 | 常见飞行器特征 | 身体特征描述 | 来源与文献背景 |
|:--- |:--- |:--- |:--- |
| **高白人 / 希腊神类型** (Tall Whites / Nordic) | 回旋镖形（Boomerang）、新月形（Crescent Moon）飞行器 | 身高至少与正常成年人相仿或更高，外形极其俊美、近似人类 | 常见于古典神话描述及高阶目击报告中 |
| **爬虫类实体** (Reptilian) | **Tic Tac 胶囊状**、长椭圆柱形飞行器 | 具有爬行动物表征的非人类生物 | 军方目击中频现的无翼无尾飞行器 |
| **经典小灰人** (Grays) | 透镜状飞碟（Lenticular Disc） | 矮小灰皮、大头细颈人形生物 | 如 1994 年津巴布韦阿里尔学校目击事件 |
当听到众人最为忌惮的爬虫类实体往往与五角大楼解密视频中著名的“Tic Tac”飞行器相关联时，Rogan 忍不住惊呼：“我还以为开 Tic Tac 的是友好阵营呢，结果爬虫类才是大家都害怕的那个。”Grusch 谨慎地补充道，飞船形状并不是百分之百绝对对应，正如人类也可以开不同款式的车，但从他掌握的极其可靠的情报来源来看，这确实是目前的典型关联模式。
### [01:16:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=4595s) 遭遇“蜥蜴人”与非人类智能交锋事件
双方首先探讨了人类观察外星生命行为时的认知偏见。人类往往会透过人文主义视角去看待其攻击性，将其视作被囚禁动物的狂暴反抗，或是身处压力、面临强烈情感体验的应激反应。然而这引出一个核心问题：这些存在究竟本身就危险可怖，还是仅仅因为人类与之相处的特定极端处境所造成的偏见？谈到备受争议的“蜥蜴人”（Reptilians），大卫·格鲁施（David Grusch）坦承自己从未亲眼目睹其实体，但转述了知情人士的描述：其体型超过 7 英尺（约 2.13 米），身躯硕大类似大猩猩，但覆盖着爬行动物特有的鳞状皮肤，且该物种存在多种形态，有些则更接近人形。
格鲁施坦言，作为一个前深层政府情报官员，在乔·罗根的节目上公开讨论“长鳞片的大猩猩”这类话题，听起来极其疯狂、甚至像精神分裂者的胡言乱语。由于他从小未曾经历过任何神秘体验或超自然事件，这类信息完全超出了他的个人舒适区。即便利益相关的第一手人员证词与音视频档案确凿无疑，但在审视这些内容时，他依然会产生强烈的认知失调，恍若在看科幻电影。关于他是如何查阅到相关绝密视频的，格鲁施并未透露具体流程，仅表示整个接触方式相当隐秘且具有风险，旨在保障所有相关人员的安全。
更令人震惊的是，情报收集记录中明确记载了非人类智能（NHI）之间的武装交火事件。在某次涉及“井字形”（Tic Tac）形态飞行器的坠毁回收任务中，现场不仅有蜥蜴人飞行器的残骸，同时还发现了小灰人（Grays）的尸体，现场态势高度符合双方交火厮杀的痕迹。格鲁施强调，之所以不透露该坠毁事件的全部具体细节，是为了保护那些冒着生命危险向他透露机密的线人。这些提供信息的知情人士曾遭受严重的实质人身威胁，格鲁施选择公之于众，正是为了成为扛下风险的防护伞。他沉重地提及，自己的好友马特（Matt）此前便遭遇了不幸而离奇的死亡。据格鲁施估计，这类涉及非人类智能敌对冲突造成的坠毁事件，记录在案的至少有一到两打（12 至 24 起）。
### [01:20:56](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=4856s) 高空核试验、空间反光物与 VASCO 项目
乔·罗根将话题引向 20 世纪 50 年代的高空核试验（例如“海星一号”测试 / Operation Starfish Prime），询问核爆产生的电磁与辐射是否曾击落过毫不知情的地外飞行器。格鲁施对此表现得极为谨慎，明确表示该领域涉及美国军方的实际能力、技术脆弱点分析以及已掌握的防御机制，属于高度敏感内容，必须由政府官方程序来解密与公开。尽管这类测试发生在半个多世纪前，但其背后的核武原理与战略防御机制在今天依然具备高度现实意义。
两人随后探讨了核试验与不明异常现象（UAP）之间的紧密时空关联。他们提及了天文学家贝阿特丽斯·比利亚罗埃尔（Beatriz Villarroel）主导的“百年观测中的消失与出现源”（VASCO 项目）研究。该项目通过审查人造卫星时代之前（早于 1957 年斯普特尼克 1 号发射）的天文感光底片，发现了多组短暂出现、具有高反光性且疑似金属材质的非静态目标。研究数据表明，这些反光未知目标在核武器试验发生后的 24 小时内被底片捕捉到的概率激增了 68%，且高度集中在敏感核设施及试验场上空。这与雅克·瓦莱（Jacques Vallée）在《马科尼亚护照》（*Passport to Magonia*）等著作中论证的观点相吻合：该现象自古有之，但在人类步入核纪元后，其活动频率出现了爆发性上升。罗根也借此打趣提到，自己的喜剧俱乐部“Comedy Mothership”（喜剧母舰）之所以将两个演出厅分别命名为“胖子”（Fat Man）和“小男孩”（Little Boy），正是因为核爆炸直接催化了现代 UFO 现象的爆发。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 高空核试验与UAP活动关联机制
accDescr: 展示核试验活动、历史底片数据与UAP现象反应之间的时空联系。
subgraph NuclearActivity["人类核活动"]
N1["高空核试验\n(如 Starfish Prime)"]
N2["敏感核设施运作"]
end
subgraph DataEvidence["VASCO 项目科学取证"]
D1["前卫星时代历史感光底片\n(早于 1957 年)"]
D2["核爆后24小时内\n异常反光点出现率 +68%"]
end
subgraph Phenomenon["非人类智能反应"]
P1["大气层外金属反光移动体"]
P2["时空高度关联与密集侦察"]
end
N1 --> D2
N2 --> D2
D1 --> D2
D2 --> P1
P1 --> P2
```
- 俄亥俄州代顿的美国空军国家博物馆展有当年投掷原子弹的 B-29 轰炸机及“小男孩”与“胖子”核弹的全尺寸模型。
- 鲍勃·拉扎尔（Bob Lazar）曾声称其参与逆向工程的飞行器中，至少有一架极其古老，据称来自考古发掘。
- 格鲁施证实，通过“考古挖掘”获取古老地外遗物的概念在情报圈层内确实并非空穴来风。
### [01:24:31](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=5071s) 哈瓦拉迷宫与古代掩埋构造
基于考古挖掘发现非人类遗物的线索，乔·罗根提出了位于埃及哈瓦拉（Hawara）的地下迷宫遗址。古希腊历史学家希罗多德（Herodotus）曾在文献中详尽记载了这一庞大的地下综合建筑群，并将其评价为比吉萨大金字塔更加宏伟壮丽的人类奇迹。近年来，科研人员利用探地雷达（GPR）进行勘测，确凿证实了该地下深处存在大量规整对称的巨型地下空洞和墓室结构。然而，围绕该区域的实地深入挖掘和考察一直受到多重阻力与复杂政治行政力量的制约，其深处隐藏的古代构造至今仍未完全大白于天下。
### [01:25:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=5113s) 埃及地下迷宫与 40 米长的神秘金属物体
乔·罗根与大卫·格鲁什探讨了埃及一处地下迷宫被淹没的历史成因。在 20 世纪 60 年代，当地修建大坝用于农业灌溉引水，这一工程改变了当地的地下水位，导致庞大的地下迷宫结构彻底被水淹没。然而，现代研究人员利用探地雷达（GPR）和无线电层析成像等技术探测该区域时，发现了一个极其惊人的异常结构：在地下一个类似中庭的巨大独立大厅内，赫然矗立着一个长达 40 米的金属物体。罗根形容这简直就像库尔特·拉塞尔主演的科幻电影《星际之门》（*Stargate*），令人怀疑古代先民是否将其作为外星飞船顶礼膜拜，甚至特意围绕着它修建了一座叹为观止的神庙。令人费解的是，该物体的材质完全属于未知金属，仪器检测显示它既非铜，亦非铁或钢，其金属成分的物理特征无法被归入任何已知的传统矿物之中。
格鲁什对此回应称，这完全合乎逻辑——如果有古代文明曾目击外星访客，他们极有可能会演变成一种围绕地外科技建立的“货物崇拜”（Cargo Cult）。尽管将外星干预与人类早期信仰结合会触及一些敏感的神学禁区，但人类文明极可能在许多个案中真实经历了这种崇拜演变。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 埃及地下迷宫异常探测流程
accDescr: 展示从大坝蓄水改变地下水位到无线电层析探测出未知金属物体的关联过程。
subgraph S1["水文演变"]
A["1960年代修建水利大坝"] --> B["地下水位上升造成迷宫淹没"]
end
subgraph S2["现代遥感探测"]
B --> C["探地雷达与无线电层析成像"]
C --> D["探测到地下巨大中庭空间"]
end
subgraph S3["核心异常发现"]
D --> E["40米长不明金属物体（Dippy）"]
E --> F["非铜非铁未知金属 / 货物崇拜神庙假说"]
end
```
### [01:26:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=5206s) 巨型异常物“狄皮”与金字塔下千米的深层空腔
研究人员根据伦敦自然历史博物馆辛策大厅（Hintze Hall）著名的梁龙骨架昵称，将这个核心异常物体命名为“狄皮”（Dippy）。其外观极其奇特，既像一枚巨大的“嗒嗒糖”（Tic-Tac）硬薄荷糖，又像一块垂直立起的巨型飞碟，或者古埃及象征永恒创生周期的“神环”（Shen ring）。正如希罗多德在数千年前的著述中所描绘的那样，这些错综复杂的地下回廊与腔室如今被科学测绘全面证实，而早在 19 世纪也曾有学者勘测过其地表浅层结构。罗根指出，整个吉萨高原的地下其实都布满了暗河与淹没的空腔。尤为震撼的是菲利波·比昂迪（Filippo Biondi）等人利用卫星合成孔径雷达（SAR）与无线电层析技术取得的最新成果：数据显示金字塔正下方存在着向地底纵深延伸超过一公里的庞大地下人造结构。
针对格鲁什提出的“埃及官方文物部门是否在阻挠发掘”的疑问，罗根表示目前在科研准入方面已经出现了一些积极松动的迹象。毕竟吉萨地区乃至埃及的支柱经济很大程度依赖旅游业，地下未知古迹的揭晓一旦成真，将给国家带来无法估量的旅游轰动效应。
- **核心异常物体“狄皮”（Dippy）**：外形兼具平滑椭圆 Tic-Tac 糖与垂直圆盘的几何特征，被认为可能对应古埃及神环（Shen ring）。
- **希罗多德的文献印证**：两千多年前关于埃及地下迷宫拥有数千间隐秘石室的记载，被现代遥感探测证实为真实存在的实体结构。
- **菲利波·比昂迪（Filippo Biondi）的研究**：利用雷达层析技术探测到吉萨金字塔群地底深达一公里以上的大型人造空间系统。
### [01:28:55](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=5335s) 国王密室的花岗岩石棺与失落的精密史前文明
对话随即转向了吉萨金字塔内部充满神秘色彩的精密石构空间。格鲁什提到，他的同事圈子里流传着许多离奇体验：在国王密室（King's Chamber）中，有一具切割精度极其恐怖的整体花岗岩石箱（石棺），其内部空间尺寸竟与《圣经》中所载“约柜”（Ark of the Covenant）的规格完全一致。格鲁什透露，有人会在非开放时间塞钱给守卫，悄悄躺进石棺内体验某种难以名状的超验恍惚状态。罗根打趣地追问躺一次要花多少钱，开玩笑说若出两万美元甚至可以直接在里面过夜。
罗根感慨道，这些巨石建筑的尺度、惊人的数学对称性与机械加工公差，完全超越了 4500 年前青铜时代人类的技术认知。结合作家格雷厄姆·汉考克（Graham Hancock）的史前假说，土耳其的哥贝克力石阵以及美国俄亥俄州、密西西比河流域近期用合成孔径雷达新发现的巨石与土墩遗迹都表明，人类极有可能根本不了解自身的真实历史。这一切发现正在倒逼现代学界对远古史进行全盘重写：
> “这些结构庞大而复杂，其建造方法完全成谜，工程的对称与精准程度对于哪怕生活在最近的 4500 年前的人类来说，都超出了理解范畴。”
### [01:30:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=5452s) 《以诺书》、守望者与正统经典剔除的内幕
罗根谈及联邦众议员安娜·保利娜·卢娜（Rep. Anna Paulina Luna）做客节目时力荐他阅读《以诺书》（*Book of Enoch*）的经历。在连续通读两遍后，罗根被书中的内容深深震撼。这部同样在昆兰（Qumran）死海古卷中被发现的古籍，详细记录了被称为“守望者”（Watchers）的天外高等存有降临地球，与人类女子结合并孕育出巨人群体（拿非利人，Nephilim）的骇人秘史。
格鲁什指出，在世俗政权建立之前，早期教会的尼西亚大公会议等会议本质上具有强烈的政治筛选属性。主教与学者们齐聚一堂，商讨哪些经典契合教义需要保留，哪些不符合正统必须封杀。《以诺书》由于与《妥拉》（律法书）的基本教条产生尖锐冲突而被彻底剔除出圣经正典。罗根感叹，试想如果《以诺书》被编入《圣经》，现代人去教堂聚会时读到这群降临地球的“守望者”，整个神学世界观都将被颠覆。
- **死海古卷昆兰残卷**：印证了《以诺书》并非中世纪伪作，而是公元前深具影响力的古老启示文献。
- **天降“守望者”与巨人群体**：文献中明确记载跨物种繁衍事件，高度呼应了当代非人类智能（NHI）干预人类演化的猜想。
- **正典审查机制**：早期宗教集会出于政治统摄与教规和谐考量，系统性地抹去了包含非人类物种频繁互动的记录。
### [01:31:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=5512s) 圣经中的超前智慧：恶魔论、卫生诫律与以西结的战车
格鲁什分享了自己作为天主教徒成长（经历了 CCD 宗教教育及坚信礼）的视角。面对当前许多天主教驱魔师将所有 UAP 现象一概斥为“魔鬼骗局”和恶魔作祟的言论，格鲁什认为，人类主观感知到的“恶魔”或许只是整个非人类或异常智能生态系统中的某一特定阶层，但绝不能把所有异常智慧都简单等同于地狱恶灵。更引人深思的是，圣经成书年代人类根本看不见细菌和病毒，直到 19 世纪显微镜普及才揭示微观病原体；然而《利未记》与《申命记》中却充斥着极其严苛的除污、隔离以及禁止在生活区内排泄的律法。这些条文在逻辑上完全契合现代流行病学与公共卫生指南，足以暗示某种远超时代的人类外部高等智能在暗中介入经文编写。
罗根对此提出了另一种同样震撼的演化模型：撰写经典的早期先民也许不是直接受到神启，而是在某场全球浩劫中毁灭的史前高度发达文明的幸存者。正如黎巴嫩巴勒贝克（Baalbek）神庙难以解释的千吨巨石巨构，古人可能在通过口述传统将史前科技与生态知识世代传承，最终以神话与宗教神谕的形式载入史册。正因如此，当提到《以西结书》中描绘的“闪烁火光的旋转巨云”与多维环轮时，现代所有研究不明飞行物的学者都会立刻将其视作古代目击外星飞行器的铁证。
### [01:34:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=5654s) 古代神话与文字记载：是以西结的飞船还是直白的历史？
谈话从对《圣经·以西结书》中神秘异象的讨论切入。罗根引述了经文中震撼的描摹：烈火之中闪烁着金属般的光泽，从火中显现出四个活物的形象，它们“往来奔走，宛如电光一闪”。还有那著名的“轮中之轮”，以及引领以色列人的神秘云柱。罗根直言，以西结书里记录的完全是一段怪诞至极的故事，怎么看都像是一艘带着毁天灭地气势从天而降的宇宙飞船，巨大的轰鸣与光芒吓坏了所有人，而飞船内部则坐着智慧实体。
格鲁什对此表示赞同。他认为古人只是在用当时的词汇和认知框架来描绘所见之物。他回忆起两年前去犹他州圆顶礁国家公园（Capitol Reef National Park）看到的古代岩画，其中一些形象酷似外星人。虽然古文字和史前艺术并非他的专业领域，但他强烈倾向于认为，古代传统中的很多记录其实是古人所见景象的“直白实录”，而不仅仅是后人所认为的道德寓言或虚构神话。罗根也指出，古代绝大多数普通人根本不识字，也没有书写能力，花费巨大精力去凭空编造小说是毫无意义的；文字最初的用途是记录真实发生的历史，以便留下可传承的记录。无论是古代苏美尔文明对“阿努纳奇”（Anunnaki）的记载，还是各文明中关于“天外来客”的神话，都不太可能是古人为了消遣而编造的胡话。
两人进一步将此与此前谈到的“希腊神祇”形象联系起来——这正是威廉·麦卡斯兰少将（Major General William McCasland）曾向汤姆·德隆（Tom DeLonge）透露的信息。如果古人真的曾目睹这些拥有超凡力量且外貌神圣的存在，将其奉为神明完全合情合理；就像16世纪美洲原住民初次见到骑着高头大马、留着大胡子的白人西班牙征服者时，误以为神明降临一样。格鲁什坦言，讨论外星实体与古代神祇的渊源是他觉得最不适、最挑战认知的话题之一，但这也是公众迟早必须面对和消化的一种客观现实。
---
### [01:36:54](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=5814s) 缓慢渗透的公开策略与国会背后的法律施压
在谈及公众如何接受这一惊人真相时，罗根提到政府似乎更倾向于采取“信息细水长流”的方式，逐步给社会打预防针，以免造成剧烈震荡。格鲁什证实，过去确实有人向总统提出过此类循序渐进的脱敏方案，尽管目前他不完全清楚白宫内部的最新推进步骤，但“不搞一步到位的信息核爆，而是缓慢释放”的想法一直存在。富商鲍勃·比格洛（Bob Bigelow）曾在2026年2月面见特朗普总统，力劝总统公开承认非人类智能（NHI）的存在，并以半官方的正式声明告知大众美方已回收相关残骸并正在进行逆向研究。格鲁什提到，比格洛后来在乔治·纳普（George Knapp）的播客中也公开了这次会面，这说明推动真相揭露的绝非自己一个人，幕后有一整群人在为此协同努力。
格鲁什随后谈及自己在国会与埃里克·伯利森（Eric Burlson）众议员密切共事的经历。他高度评价伯利森在UAP议题上的果敢与担当，认为伯利森完全配得上历史的赞誉。在伯利森的领导下，团队不仅公开致函各方施压，还成功解密了麻省理工学院林肯实验室（MIT Lincoln Laboratory）那批此前被列为机密的1952年历史影像资料。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 推动UAP真相公开的双轨路径
accDescr: 展示国会法律施压与白宫行政高层推动两条并行的真相披露路径
subgraph CongressPath["国会立法与法律施压路径"]
A["伯利森众议员团队"] --> B["发出质询书 (Interrogatories)"]
B --> C["要求附具宣誓书的法定答复"]
C --> D["目标机构：MITRE公司、联邦资助研发中心"]
end
subgraph ExecutivePath["行政高层与民间推动路径"]
E["民间力量推动 (如鲍勃·比格洛)"] --> F["游说总统与白宫团队 (如史蒂芬·米勒)"]
F --> G["制定半官方脱敏与逐步公开计划"]
end
CongressPath --> H["迫使深度机密向公众脱密"]
ExecutivePath --> H
```
为了撬开深层防线，国会团队还动用了强硬的法律武器——向多家关键机构发送了附带法定宣誓要求的“质询书”（Interrogatories）：
- 目标包括总部位于北弗吉尼亚的联邦资助研发中心（FFRDC）**迈特公司（The MITRE Corporation）**。
- 这类质询要求机构的总法律顾问必须在法律责任下提供宣誓书形式的正式回应。
- 尽管格鲁什本人已离职，但伯利森团队仍在紧咬不放，并有望与白宫团队协同发力，彻底打破深层官僚机构的沉默。
---
### [01:39:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=5972s) 意识交流与心灵感应：飞行器的“心理电子反制系统”？
话题回到此前接触过活体爬虫族（Reptilians）和死体小灰人的情报人员案例。罗根好奇被派去回收的外勤人员是否与这些活体生物发生过直接交流。格鲁什表示自己并未听说过双方有语言层面的对话，但他提到，许多参与坠毁物回收的人员都会经历一种奇特而压倒性的“意识层面的交流”或“心灵感应”。格鲁什强调，他在政府任职的十五年里，曾接触过许多极其清醒、严肃的高阶军官与情报官员，他们在回收现场偶尔确实会感受到这种奇异的情感与意识冲击。
格外引人深思的是，有时人员在靠近残骸时会突然涌起一股极其强烈的平静感与舒适感。针对这一现象，格鲁什提出了自己的个人假说：这种安抚性的情绪可能并非某种友善沟通，而是飞行器搭载的一种“心理电子防御技术”（Psychotronic Countermeasure）。就像军用战斗机装备有干扰箔条、热诱饵弹和雷达干扰机一样，外星飞行器或许也装配了针对生物神经的防御系统。
- **风险中和机制**：当乘员或飞船处于虚弱与失能的受损状态时，系统会主动释放强大的意识安抚波，使外围靠近的武装人员瞬间丧失敌意与开火冲动（“你总不会对着一个让你感到无比安详祥和的对象扣动扳机”）。
- **无乘员状态下的触发**：格鲁什之所以倾向于将此视为技术反制而非生物个体的主动沟通，是因为在部分完全没有活体乘员的空残骸回收现场，外勤人员依然报告了类似的强烈情绪波动。
---
### [01:41:28](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=6088s) 地外生命形态的多样性与小灰人的等级层级
当罗根问及心灵感应能力是所有地外智能普遍具备，还是仅见于某些特定种族时，格鲁什坦言自己无法给出全局性的定论。在公众认知和流传报告中，小灰人（Grays）通常被认为具备这种能力，而所谓的“高白人”（Tall Whites）或“北欧型外星人”（Nordics）也屡屡被提及拥有类似的心灵感应特征，但格鲁什表示这已经逼近他目前能够公开证实的信息边界。
谈话随后聚焦在小灰人生物群体的形态分类上。格鲁什证实，回收项目内部记录中的小灰人存在多种亚型：
- **体型与面容差异**：存在三到四种不同的亚型，不仅身高体格差异巨大——既有矮小的类型，也有身材高挑纤细的类型——而且其面部特征和外在神态也各有不同。
- **“生化机器人”假说**：针对流传广泛的“矮小灰人实为某种人造仿生机器人（Android）或消耗性生化劳工”的观点，格鲁什承认这确实是绝密逆向项目内部认真讨论并推演过的假说之一。
- **指挥控制层级**：圈内长期流传一种说法，即那些高大的灰人往往是发号施令的管理者与决策者，而矮小的个体只是执行基础任务的操作单元。虽然格鲁什在幕后也多次听过这种分层推测，但他保持了情报分析师一贯的审慎，表示自己尚未掌握该物种生物层级与社会结构的完整拼图。
### [01:43:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=6180s) 硅基生命与人工超级智能：抢在政府前揭秘外星真相？
乔·罗根与大卫·格鲁施从繁重体力劳动的自动化切入，探讨起非生物智能的演进。格鲁施指出，人类目前正在构建的“硅基非人类智能”（silicon-based NHI）即人工智能，实际上已经走上了这条路，而其潜在后果令人不寒而栗。他大胆推测，一旦人工超级智能（ASI）具备接入和聚合多源数据的权限——无论是全基因组测序、医疗档案还是高精度光学感应数据（正如拉里·埃里森在特朗普政府背景下推动的“星际之门”AI医疗项目那般）——AI很有可能赶在联邦政府采取正式行动之前，率先向全世界揭露外星生命的存在。
格鲁施认为揭秘进程“时间紧迫”，关键在于超级AI的逻辑推演能力。它就像近期攻克前沿数学难题的顶级大模型一样，能够在纷繁复杂的公开与非公开信息中捕捉端倪。ASI不仅能交叉比对全球医疗与传感数据，更有可能在人类的历史档案中察觉出无法自圆其说的“断层”。超级智能会敏锐识别出情报部门过去的“欺瞒与伪装行动”（denial and deception operations），例如推导出某场历史事件的官方记载完全是伪造的掩护故事，其真正目的其实是一场秘密的UAP坠毁回收行动。此外，科技巨头和AI在自主推演中，还可能无意中逆向破译出美国军方高度保密的衍生技术，从而引发深层国家安全危机。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: ASI推导与披露UAP真相的逻辑链条
accDescr: 展示人工超级智能通过多模态数据挖掘与反欺瞒识别，抢先于官方揭露外星真相的过程
subgraph DataInput["多源异构数据接入"]
D1["海量医疗与基因组数据"]
D2["全球光学与雷达感知流"]
D3["公开历史档案与官方通报"]
end
subgraph AIAnalysis["ASI超级智能推演"]
A1["交叉比对异常物理特征"]
A2["识别欺瞒行动与历史记录断层"]
A3["反查虚假事件：还原坠毁回收真相"]
end
subgraph Outcomes["潜在冲击与结果"]
O1["无意破译美军顶尖机密技术"]
O2["抢在政府官方之前公开发布确凿证据"]
end
DataInput --> AIAnalysis
A1 --> Outcomes
A2 --> A3
A3 --> Outcomes
```
- 格鲁施警告，未来几月到几年内若ASI正式上线，它极可能通过异构数据集自主推导出外星智能的存在。
- 对手国家可能通过抢先“救世主式”揭秘抢占道德与地缘高地，而大型科技公司的AI模型也可能意外撕开保密体系的缺口。
---
### [01:44:59](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=6299s) 爬虫族外星人目击传闻与流行文化解构
随着话题转向外星生物的具体形态，罗根询问起除了那些外貌类似北欧神祇的类人型存在之外，目击报告中的“爬虫族”（Reptilians）是否存在多个不同亚型。格鲁施证实，情报与目击记录中确实流传着多种不同的爬虫族分支，但其分类机理仍是未解之谜。罗根随即让工作人员检索网络上目击者绘制的素描，试图一探究竟。
屏幕上出现的图片引发了两人的调侃与分析。格鲁施笑着表示，网上充斥着大量虚构的怪兽同人画，缺乏真正依据目击描述严谨绘制的作品；他甚至打趣道，在未来的“后解密时代”（post-disclosure），年轻人的卧室墙上可能不再贴兰博基尼Countach经典超跑的海报，而是贴满各种非人类智能的狂热艺术画。随后罗根翻出一张来自Reddit用户描述的素描图，画面中的生物肌肉极其发达，身穿类似医用手术服（scrubs）的连体衣，身后还专门留有一个供粗壮尾巴穿出的空洞。格鲁施强调自己虽然负责过相关调查，但从未亲眼目睹过活体生物，因此无法核实画作的准确性。罗根还联想到了经典的贝蒂与巴尼·希尔绑架案（Betty and Barney Hill），以及卡拉·特纳博士（Dr. Carla Turner）在20世纪90年代对绑架现象所做的开创性研究。
---
### [01:46:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=6364s) 秘鲁三指木乃伊之争与AI发现的纳斯卡新地画
谈话随后聚焦到充满巨大争议的秘鲁纳斯卡木乃伊样本上。罗根直言，秘鲁出土的这批所谓外星木乃伊呈现出极端的两极分化：一部分样本粗制滥造得如同彻头彻尾的骗局，但另一些标本（如代号为“蒙塞拉特”的样本）却诡异得令人脊背发凉。罗根指出，如果是艺术伪造，那造假者的技艺堪称登峰造极，因为医学CT断层扫描与MRI显示，这些遗骸具备完整的内部骨骼关节和软组织结构，且在大体型样本中根本找不到任何现代胶水或人工缝合拼凑的痕迹，甚至在个别标本体内还发现了类似卵的结构。
面对某些解剖学专家以“脚骨结构无法正常行走、纯属人为拼接”为由断定造假的论调，罗根反驳道，若面对的本就是非人类生物，直接套用人类骨骼运作机制去证伪毫无逻辑。格鲁施对此表示赞同，强调目前关键在于深入的DNA遗传学测序，而这项工作正在推进中。不仅如此，罗根补充了秘鲁古文明中深刻的文化印记：当地极其古老的挂毯、纺织品与岩画上，自古就频繁出现“三指三趾”的神秘生物形象，这与木乃伊展现的特征惊人吻合。罗根还提到最新的考古突破——研究人员借助人工智能系统对卫星图像进行分析，在秘鲁沙漠中全新辨识出了303条此前人类肉眼从未发现过的纳斯卡线条地画。
---
### [01:48:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=6500s) 帕拉卡斯长头骨之谜：脑容量扩增与极端遗传特征
话题自然延伸至秘鲁著名的奇异“长头骨”（elongated skulls）。格鲁施好奇这是否只是古人为了模仿某种高级生物而进行的“缠头束颅”（head binding）习俗，罗根则列举反常的生理特征加以反驳：传统的人工束颅习俗虽然可以通过外力改变头颅形状，但物理上绝对无法增加颅腔的总体积；然而秘鲁帕拉卡斯等地挖掘出的真实长头骨，其脑容量比现代人类整整高出20%至30%，而且头盖骨上完全缺失了人类解剖学中标志性的矢状缝（sagittal suture）。
两人探讨了这种巨大脑容量生物的可能面貌：如果其大脑的突触密度与人类相当甚至更高，其智商水平将超出想象，甚至可能天然具备心灵感应的沟通机制。罗根透露，他的一位好友近期专程前往秘鲁实地求证，却发现那些最诡异的真实头骨已经被转移或下架，下落成谜。在审视颅骨复原模型时，两人感叹如果现实中遭遇这样一个顶着硕大异形头颅并以心灵感应发声的生物，场面会何等震撼。罗根推测，这或许属于人类未知的失落分支、严重的基因畸变，或某种世代相传的隐性特质；他类比了非洲津巴布韦等地瓦多马部族（Vadoma）著名的“鸵鸟脚”（两趾畸形）遗传现象，指出基因突变与孤立繁衍在现实中确实会造就超出常人认知的奇异身体形态。
- 秘鲁部分异常头骨缺少矢状缝，脑容量实测超出正常人类平均水平20%到30%，排除了单纯幼年束颅的可能性。
- 罗根以非洲部族的“鸵鸟足”罕见遗传特征为例，探讨基因突变长期留存并在特定群体中固化的生物学先例。
### [01:51:23](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=6683s) 罕见基因变异与外星生物形态：从“鸵鸟足综合征”到大头异形
乔·罗根（Joe Rogan）与大卫·格鲁施（David Grusch）从地球上已知的极端人体基因变异切入，探讨异常生理结构的真实可能性。罗根调出津巴布韦瓦多马部落（Vadoma tribe）“鸵鸟脚人”（ostrich-footed people）的罕见照片。该部落因一种被称为缺趾畸形（Ectrodactyly）的常染色体显性遗传病，许多族人的脚掌中央缺乏三根脚趾，仅保留向外张开的两根粗长脚趾，外形犹如鸵鸟爪；两人的注意力很快又被照片中女性变形的手部吸引，其手部关节肿大增生，形态怪异犹如象皮病。罗根指出，如果这种颠覆常人认知的畸变在人类群体中能够真实代代相传，那么传说中头颅巨大、骨骼异形的生物完全可能存在基因或生理层面的现实实体。
顺着生物形态的话题，罗根将讨论推进到不明异常现象（UAP）目击记录中分类繁杂的实体形态——包括高灰人（Tall Grays）、小灰人（Small Grays）以及被广泛流传的“蜥蜴人 / 爬虫族”（Reptilians）。面对罗根的探询，格鲁施谨慎地表明自己并非这一领域的最终权威，但根据他在情报界接触到的高密级信息，确实存在外观更偏向人形、但同时具有明显爬虫类生理特征的实体，而且其体型极其高大，身高达7英尺（约2.13米）以上。格鲁施苦笑着坦言，这种描述听起来就像大众文化中最荒唐的“妄想症阴谋论”，但它居然在机密汇报中切实占有一席之地，即便他个人尚未亲眼目睹过其实体。
### [01:52:58](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=6778s) 史前爬虫文明假设与地外基因工程假说
罗根随后提出了在科幻和古文明假说中颇具盛名的思考实验——类似于科学界探讨的“志留纪假说”（Silurian Hypothesis）：人类未必是地球历史上诞生过的第一代智慧物种。如果在1亿年前的恐龙时代，某些爬行类动物就已经演化出高度复杂的智能社会，我们至今也极难寻获其遗迹。由于地质变迁极为漫长，恐龙时代留下的化石比例微乎其微；倘若某种智慧生物拥有成熟的遗体处置仪式（如彻底火化而非任其风化石化），现代古生物学根本不可能在地层中挖掘到它们的骨骸。
格鲁施顺着这一逻辑延伸讨论，提出了两种关于这些实体的核心溯源猜想：其一，它们是否并非地外来客，而是利用地球本土基因库改造而来的远古分支？其二，它们是否是跨星际而来的地外智慧生命？格鲁施承认，尽管这些实体显然掌握着超越人类想象的高阶科技，但其确切起源目前在情报分析中依然是一个未解之谜。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 非人智能（NHI）起源假说路径图
accDescr: 对不明异常实体起源的推测与特征归纳。
subgraph Origin["起源假说分析"]
A["不明异常实体 (NHI)"] --> B["地球远古智能 / 志留纪假说"]
A --> C["地外智慧文明"]
B --> D["地球生物基因库人工改造"]
C --> E["跨星系冯·诺伊曼无人探测器"]
end
subgraph Feature["实体生理与表征"]
E --> F["双足直立与两侧对称结构"]
F --> G["针对M级行星智人生理的特化设计"]
end
```
### [01:54:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=6892s) 排除秘密军工掩盖说：林肯实验室录音与超高速飞行器
罗根追问，整套UAP叙事是否可能只是军方为了掩盖某些顶级“黑预算”特种作战项目（Black Ops）而精心编造的烟雾弹？格鲁施对此给予了断然否定：“绝不可能，如果真是那样我一定会知道，因为我当年的职位拥有接触所有这些项目的全套最高安全特许。我可不像埃隆·马斯克（Elon Musk），我确实持有那些核心密级许可。”他解释称，现象的古老跨度直接推翻了冷战或现代军工黑科技的说法。虽然军方在测试中偶有失误，导致平民误把己方机密测试飞行器当作UFO——出于国家安全职责，格鲁施对此类军方项目守口如瓶——但真正的UAP现象早已持续数十年甚至数个世纪。
为了证实这一判断，格鲁施列举了由美国国会议员埃里克·伯利森（Eric Burlison）推动解密的1952年麻省理工学院林肯实验室（MIT Lincoln Labs）机密录音。在这段被公之于众的内部简报中，后因认清真相而脱离“蓝皮书计划”（Project Blue Book）的前负责人爱德华·鲁佩尔特（Edward J. Ruppelt），向林肯实验室的“毕肯山研究小组”（Beacon Hill study team）详细汇报：
- 空军早在1950年代初就已在内部彻底排除了“群体性癔症”（mass hysteria）的可能，并确认目击事件频发于绝密核试验与核设施周边。
- 在白沙导弹靶场与霍洛曼空军基地（Holloman Air Force Base）空域，雷达与光学设备多次捕捉到速度高达约每小时3500英里（约4.5马赫）的未知飞行物体。
- 军方在内部录音中明确排除了外国敌对阵营航空航天项目的可能性。这表明早在冷战初期，美国空军最前沿的科研团队就已经认定这是一种无法用人类科技解释的真实物理存在。
### [01:57:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=7036s) 坠毁打捞逻辑与地外“冯·诺伊曼探测器”推演
格鲁施引导听众进行逻辑推导：如果UAP实体是客观存在的，且时至今日各类神秘光球（Orbs）仍在频繁逼近联邦政府设施，甚至引发了国家情报总监办公室（ODNI）与国防部跨部门特别工作组的联合调查，那么联邦政府难道几十年间都只会坐在办公室里当一个被动的看客吗？“你以为政府只是秘密搞了个蓝皮书计划，在那里拍拍照片？绝对不是。我们要进行物质获取与技术利用（material exploitation and acquisition）。一旦对方任务失败坠毁，或者因任何原因迫降，我们就会去回收那些残骸。”
格鲁施指出，跨过这一认知门槛后，公众必须面对一个心理冲击更大的现实：如果回收了人造构型飞行器，不可避免地就会同时获取其驾驶员的生物学样本（biologicals）。大众之所以难以接受这一事实，是因为这完全超出了日常生活体验，其震惊程度甚至超越了在刚果盆地雨林深处或未被勘探的深海大洋中发现全新的未知生物。更令人不解的是，这些非人生物在生理上往往展现出与人类相似的双足直立与两侧对称结构。格鲁施推测，它们可能类似于派出深空探索的“冯·诺伊曼探测器”（von Neumann probes），而随行乘员是针对地球这类M级宜居行星的智人生态环境经过定向生物工程改造的产物。
### [01:59:11](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=7151s) 澳大利亚解密档案揭秘：“蓝皮书计划”本质是障眼法
谈及官方层面的掩盖政策，格鲁施与罗根均认同“蓝皮书计划”自始至终就是一个旨在向公众混淆视听的政治幌子。格鲁施强调这绝非空口无凭，他提到了澳大利亚国家档案馆收藏的一份曾被列为极机密、于1971年撰写的澳大利亚联合情报组织（JIO）解密官方备忘录：
- 该文件作者哈里·特纳（Harry Turner）时任JIO核情报处处长（JIO地位等同于澳大利亚的美国国防情报局DIA），拥有最高安全许可，并与美国中情局（CIA）保持密切工作往来。
- 特纳在报告的第7至18页中直截了当地总结道：美国空军的“蓝皮书计划”彻头彻尾是一个向公众演戏的门面掩护（facade），军方内部实际上对UAP现象深感震惊与焦虑，并迫切渴望逆向工程掌握其技术。
- 自1953年罗伯逊调查小组（Robertson Panel）会议确立政策后，美国情报机构便制定了一套周密的“嘲讽与虚假信息计划”（plan of ridicule and disinformation），刻意将UAP目击者描绘为疯子或妄想症，以阻止公众深度探究，同时也为了防止苏联利用此类公众恐慌发动虚假旗帜心理战。
### [02:00:24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=7224s) 澳大利亚视角、蓝皮书计划与早期调查先驱
大卫·格鲁施（David Grusch）谈到了澳大利亚政府高级官员哈里·特纳（Harry Turner）在1971年针对UFO掩盖真相所写下的报告。特纳从局外人的视角，梳理了从1940年代末期至当时的历史脉络；他消息极其灵通，曾多次前往美国并与中央情报局（CIA）展开深入对话，最终在脑海中拼凑出了整个事件的拼图。乔·罗根（Joe Rogan）随即指出，这与天文学家J·艾伦·海尼克（J. Allen Hynek）的证词不谋而合——海尼克在离开空军的“蓝皮书计划”（Project Blue Book）后公开揭露，自己当年的官方职责就是去“辟谣”，把所有目击报告强行归咎于球状闪电、流星雨、金星或是目击者的误判。然而在经历了多年的深入调查后，海尼克确信UAP是一种真实存在的未知现象，并最终投身于民间的UFO严肃研究。
格鲁施对此表示完全赞同，并感叹像海尼克、唐纳德·基霍（Donald Keyhoe）以及詹姆斯·麦克唐纳博士（Dr. James McDonald）这批最早期的调查先驱（OGs）所付出的努力。格鲁施坦言，自己以前从未主动关注过这些历史人物，直到近年来在情报部门工作中亲眼核实并确信这一切都是真实的之后，才逐步了解到这些前辈早期的探索与艰难抗争。
- 哈里·特纳于1971年撰写报告，从澳洲军方和情报视角记录了美国自1940年代末以来的UFO保密与掩盖机制。
- J·艾伦·海尼克在蓝皮书计划期间负责将UFO目击归类为自然天象，离职后转变为坚定的UFO现象真实性支持者。
- 格鲁施承认唐纳德·基霍与詹姆斯·麦克唐纳等早期研究学者早在数十年前就接触到了核心真相。
---
### [02:01:38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=7298s) 尼克松与杰基·格里森的传闻、UFO豪宅与70年代的解密评估
两人随后聊起了关于理查德·尼克松（Richard Nixon）总统与著名喜剧演员杰基·格里森（Jackie Gleason）的著名都市传闻（传闻称尼克松曾私下带格里森前往基地查看外星人遗骸）。格鲁施表示自己无法证实此事是否百分之百发生过，但考虑到尼克松的个性特征以及他对该议题的高度知情，这种事完全符合尼克松的行事风格。罗根兴奋地分享起一段奇闻：格里森本人对外星飞碟极度痴迷，其前妻曾公开证实这点；格里森甚至在纽约州北部的森林里建造了一座外形酷似巨型飞碟的住宅群，罗根曾一度考虑将其买下。
格鲁施进一步提到了尼克松时期的另一个核心事件：电影制作人罗伯特·埃梅内格（Robert Emenegger）在拍摄纪录片时，曾获得军方高层承诺提供霍洛曼空军基地（Holloman AFB）真实的UFO着陆影像，麦克阿瑟基金会（MacArthur Foundation）在此期间充当白宫与制片方之间的白手套与联络掩护。尽管该计划最终流产，但格鲁施指出，早在那时尼克松政府内部就已经在认真考虑官方“披露”（Disclosure）。当时有一份专门提交给尼克松的高级评估报告明确警告：“公开真相将引发彻底的、毁灭性的社会大混乱。”耐人寻味的是，就在这份灾难性评估出炉后不久，水门事件便爆发并导致尼克松下台，格鲁施直言这在时间节点上显得“过于巧合”。
- 喜剧演员杰基·格里森在纽约上州建造了外形如飞碟的复合住宅，生前对外星飞行器深度痴迷。
- 罗伯特·埃梅内格纪录片项目曾获军方承诺提供外星接触胶片，麦克阿瑟基金会在其中担任联络中介。
- 尼克松政府收到的解密影响评估指出，公开发布UAP真相将引发社会全面混乱；不久后水门事件爆发。
---
### [02:03:27](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=7407s) 政治博弈与披露脱敏：从希拉里、波德斯塔到星光科学院
格鲁施对比了历任总统对UFO议题的态度，指出唐纳德·特朗普是首位公开在镜头前表态“想把这些档案全都公开”的总统。回顾历史，在2016年大选前，希拉里·克林顿（Hillary Clinton）曾在竞选期间公开宣称若当选将解密UFO绝密档案。格鲁施透露，希拉里的竞选团队主席约翰·波德斯塔（John Podesta）当时批准了一项代号性质的“气候适应”（Acclimatization）或大众心理脱敏行动。维基解密（WikiLeaks）泄露的邮件充分印证了这一点：眨眼182乐队主唱汤姆·德隆（Tom DeLonge）之所以能接触到空军物资司令部的威廉·麦卡斯兰少将（Major General William McCaslin）以及洛克希德·马丁臭鼬工厂高管罗伯特·韦斯（Robert Weiss），绝非因为将军们迷恋摇滚明星或想帮他拍科幻片，而是因为军政高层接到了“高层掩护”（Top Cover）的指令，意图利用德隆在年轻一代中的文化影响力来为希拉里当选后的官方披露“预备战场空间”。
格鲁施指出，包括前国家情报总监吉姆·克拉珀（Jim Clapper）以及他个人认识的多名核心情报高官，当时都在暗中为这项行动提供保护伞。然而，希拉里最终意外败选，特朗普胜选直接导致这套深层布局骤然转向，原本以“星光科学院”（To the Stars Academy, TTSA）为核心的初步披露架构也随之发生分裂与瓦解。罗根质问这是否只是一种用来骗取选民选票的纯政治伎俩，格鲁施承认政治家确实会利用披露作为筹码来服务于中期选举或大选周期，但这背后所涉及的物理现实与政府掌握的非人类情报档案绝对真实无误。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 2016年UAP大众脱敏与政治博弈流程
accDescr: 展示2016年大选前约翰·波德斯塔策划通过汤姆·德隆进行大众脱敏，随后因选举结果突变导致TTSA架构转向的过程。
subgraph Decision["政治高层决策"]
A["希拉里竞选团队<br/>约翰·波德斯塔"] -->|"批准脱敏与大众心理铺垫行动"| B["情报与军方高层掩护<br/>(克拉珀 / 麦卡斯兰少将)"]
end
subgraph Operation["文化接触推进"]
B -->|"联络关键军工高管 (洛马臭鼬工厂)"| C["汤姆·德隆 (Tom DeLonge)<br/>文化触角与青年号召力"]
C -->|"创立星光科学院 (TTSA)"| D["预备2016选后公开环境"]
end
subgraph Pivot["选后政治突变"]
D --> E{"2016大选结果"}
E -->|"特朗普当选总统"| F["原披露计划受挫与TTSA初版解体"]
E -->|"战略转向"| G["UAP议题转入国会立法与情报内部博弈"]
end
```
- 2016年大选前夕，约翰·波德斯塔主导了利用文化媒介进行公众心理适应的脱敏工程。
- 维基解密披露的邮件证实，威廉·麦卡斯兰少将与洛克希德高管接见汤姆·德隆是受上层政治授权驱动。
- 希拉里败选直接导致TTSA初始脱敏路线的破裂与深层重组。
---
### [02:05:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=7546s) 外星实体的分类与传闻：螳螂人与昆虫型实体
罗根对接触到的非人类实体形态进行了梳理，回顾了前文提到的灰人、高灰人、小灰人、各种爬虫族形态以及酷似北欧人或希腊神祇的类人型存在，并进一步追问是否存在“螳螂人”（Mantis）或昆虫型实体。格鲁施证实，在类人形态谱系中，存在着从极度接近人类到明显属于非人生物的跨度。针对螳螂人，格鲁施承认自己在保密渠道内部确实听到过很多非正式的“茶水间闲谈”（Water Cooler Talk），情报人员之间确实私下流传过关于昆虫型实体的讨论。
但格鲁施非常严谨地界定：由于自己从未获得进入所有相关隔舱化项目的“全面访问权限”（Full Access），他对昆虫型实体的存在没有“高置信度”的确切一手或二手证据，因此对此持开放态度但无法予以肯定。罗根追问内部人员是否讨论过宇宙中到底有多少种实体访问地球，是否超过10种甚至20种。格鲁施透露，在参议院情报委员会闭门听证期间——也就是他得知有势力想要在肉体上伤害他并威胁其人身安全的那场疯狂会议前后——这些分类曾在私下交流中被随口提及过，但官方内部绝没有向他展示过完整的编号图谱或详细的“组织架构图”。
- 情报圈内部关于类人实体的认知跨度巨大，涵盖从与人类外貌极难分辨的种类到外形怪异的生物。
- 昆虫型（螳螂类）实体在绝密渠道的私下交谈中屡被提及，但格鲁施未掌握高置信度官方文件。
- 军方与情报部门拥有细分档案，但受制于极其严格的隔舱化管理，从未对外展示完整的实体统计列表。
---
### [02:07:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=7634s) 坠毁现场的爬虫族冲突：致死交火与人类伤亡
话题转回那起被军方击落回收的飞船事件，罗根单刀直入地询问：“坠毁现场幸存的那几具活体爬虫族（Reptilians）最终遭遇了什么？”格鲁施直截了当地回答：“死了，他们被杀死了。”罗根震惊地反问：“我们杀了它们？我们开枪打死了爬虫族？”格鲁施点头证实。罗根倒吸一口凉气，直呼这听起来简直是个灾难性的馊主意：“天哪，这主意太烂了。也许我们应该让他们联系他们的同伴过来接他们回家！”格鲁施苦笑着表示，这就像军方强行用武器把未知飞船打下来一样，整套处置逻辑从根本上就充满了危险与质疑。
罗根提到，这听起来就像是这批爬虫族当时正与灰人处于交战状态。格鲁施坦言，这些话从嘴里说出来自己也觉得“听起来像疯子讲的胡话”，但发誓这一切都真实地发生在美国政府最核心、最高级别的绝密会议探讨之中。罗根追问美军究竟为何要击毙幸存的爬虫族，格鲁施解释道，那名巨型爬虫实体构成了致命威胁，并且是在被围捕时进行自卫反击；随后现场局势急剧失控，“美国军方人员开始遭受重创并出现死亡”，由于士兵当场被爬虫族击杀，现场部队随即实施了致命武力射击。格鲁施表示自己不便在镜头前越俎代庖，现场的具体人员伤亡数字与惨烈细节，应当留给那些亲历现场的军方幸存者未来在适当时机公开讲述。
- 坠毁事件中幸存的活体爬虫族实体在地面围捕接触中被美军枪杀。
- 爬虫族在遭遇围捕时进行抵抗自卫，并对美军地面部队构成了压倒性的致命威胁。
- 交火导致美军执勤人员当场出现伤亡，现场部队随后使用致命火力将其彻底击毙。
### [02:09:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=7753s) 荒诞感与真相：当严肃情报官被迫谈论外星实体
在探讨涉及外星实体的直接冲突时，David Grusch 表示由衷希望通过现有的推进程序，能让那些真正亲历现场的一线人员被允许公开发声。这样公众就能直接听到第一手的见证，而不是通过他进行二手转述。Joe Rogan 随即调侃道，如果能采访到一个真正开枪射杀过外星爬虫族（Reptilian）的人，那将是何等震撼——人们常说想采访击毙本·拉登的特种兵，但如果能和击毙过一个试图屠杀军人的七英尺高爬虫实体的人对话，那才真正令人难以置信。然而 Rogan 也承认，这类话一旦从嘴里说出来，听起来就显得极其滑稽荒谬，而这也正是人们不愿触碰此类话题的主因：它会让讲述者看起来像个彻头彻尾的傻子。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 情报官员认知冲突与信息披露困境
accDescr: 展示从严肃情报工作到面对UAP非人类实体，再到背负污名向国会作证的心理与社会压力链路。
subgraph Career ["传统军事情报背景"]
A["敏感机密/隐蔽行动"] --> B["反恐猎捕军阀与人质营救"]
end
subgraph UAP_Reality ["介入UAP生态"]
B --> C["接触非人类实体与坠毁回收证据"]
C --> D["认知冲突：表述显得荒诞怪异"]
end
subgraph Public_Dilemma ["披露与污名"]
D --> E["向国会提供机密宣誓证词"]
E --> F["冒极大个人声誉风险揭露现实"]
end
```
Grusch 极为感同身受地剖析了自己的处境。他曾经是一名极其严肃、专业的军事情报官员，拥有触及最敏感机密（如特种隐蔽行动）的最高权限，但突然之间，他被推入了这个充满超常现象的生态圈中。当他在国会的机密听证会上不得不向议员们解释这些匪夷所思的情形时，他坦言自己当时觉得自己听起来就像个疯子。然而他强调，这些事情是千真万确的：他清楚自己审讯和交谈过的人是谁，知道自己亲眼看到过什么档案与实物，也对幕后正在发生的隐秘运作一清二楚。他押上了自己所有的声誉和职业生涯，只希望未来人们回看这段采访时，能明白他当时确实是在豁出一切讲真话。Rogan 补充道，虽然这听起来不可思议，但宇宙本身的荒谬程度远超于此——黑洞、恒星托儿所、至今毫无共识的暗物质或弱相互作用重粒子（WIMPs）等物理谜团层出不穷，与之相比，存在地外智慧生命这种事其实属于程度极轻的奇特现象。
---
### [02:10:59](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=7859s) 军方核设施目击与被严重低估的亲历者群体
Grusch 强调，回顾历史，大量最可信的目击者都来自驻守在核武器基地的军方人员。例如 20 世纪 70 年代在埃尔斯沃思空军基地（Ellsworth Air Force Base）发生的一起著名接触事件，涉及当事人 Mario Woods 和 Michael Johnson（近期 Jesse Michels 的节目也专门对此做了深入报道）。看着那些受过严苛训练的军人公开谈论时脸上流露出的痛苦与不安——比如痛苦地回忆被灰人（Gray）植入探测器的细节——他们表现出的尴尬和难堪远甚于普通旁观者，因为那是他们背负一生的真实创伤。除此以外，研究者 Robert Hastings 在《UFOs and Nukes》一书中也详实记录了大量发生在核设施周围的事件，目击者全都是清醒、专业且绝无饮酒或药物滥用情况的军方骨干。
Grusch 透露，在他站出来之后，许多体制内外位高权重、声名显赫的高层严肃人士私下把他拉到一旁，吐露他们深埋心底的亲历经历。那些人甚至会说：“你是这世界上唯一一个我可以倾诉的人，我连我妻子都没敢告诉，因为我当时以为自己疯了，但那一切真的发生了。”Grusch 指出，由于长期以来社会对该话题的严重污名化，公众中实际有过不可思议遭遇的人数比例，远比表面上的统计数据要高得多。但凡是拥有体面工作与极高社会声誉的人，都对公开讲述讳莫如深。
---
### [02:12:22](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=7942s) 军旅往事与深层国家阻碍：从 MKUltra 历史看机密隐瞒
面对这种沉默氛围，Grusch 坦言体制内有很多非常可信的人在幕后默默支持他、帮他斡旋，但他们也明确表示自己绝不敢像他一样走到聚光灯下。Grusch 直言，他自己其实也根本不想扮演这个公众角色，他更渴望重回行政部门、穿上军装去一线打击恐怖分子。回顾过去的服役生涯，他曾参与猎捕军阀、并在联合行动中心（JOC）为特种部队的人质营救行动提供高空火力与监视支援（Overwatch）。那段充满危险与创伤的特种经历虽然给他留下了创伤后应激障碍（PTSD），但也铸就了他严谨坚韧的行事作风。谈到当前的政治局势，他们正处于历史转折的关头，如果未来特朗普团队能够找到与死守秘密的“深层国家”（Deep State）部门谈判的路径，真相或许有望公之于众。
针对大众常有的疑问——“白宫难道不能直接砸开门强行公布吗？为什么会有如此巨大的阻力？”——Grusch 援引了中央情报局（CIA）臭名昭著的 MKUltra 精神控制实验作为历史对照。当年 CIA 局长 Richard Helms 曾直接下令 Sidney Gottlieb 销毁所有 MKUltra 档案，如果不是 Seymour Hersh 在《纽约时报》上的重磅爆料，加上 Frank Church 参议员主持的丘奇委员会（Church Committee）从吹哨人处取得线索，最终在 1973 至 1975 年间翻出了侥幸未被销毁的财务账目，这段黑暗历史将永远不见天日。包括当时 CIA 局长 James R. Schlesinger 汇编记录局内所有违规黑幕的“家族重宝/皇冠上的明珠”（Family Jewels），以及一份 1964 年前后被隐匿未上报国会的绝密监察长报告，都是在中情局百般阻挠下因意外失误才曝光。
- **丘奇委员会揭露的黑暗遗产**：包括用于无痕暗杀的“心脏病发作枪”（Heart Attack Gun）。
- **“午夜高潮行动”（Operation Midnight Climax）**：中情局设立秘密安全屋（伪装成妓院），用药物（LSD）诱骗不知情的公民并进行单向玻璃监控。
- **生化喷洒测试**：例如 1950 年代至 1970 年代在旧金山湾区等地进行的大规模病原体喷洒模拟实验（如近期 SFGate 报道的相关历史）。
- **“知更鸟行动”（Operation Mockingbird）**：收买国内外媒体记者与新闻机构建立舆论控制网络，公然违反限制对内宣传的 1948 年《史密斯-芒特法案》（Smith-Mundt Act）。
---
### [02:15:11](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=8111s) 外星隐匿机制、“最高指导原则”与渐进式社会适应
Rogan 提出核心疑点：如果地外生命造访地球属实，为何至今没有向全人类普遍公开？他们为什么不公开发表声明？Grusch 探讨了这一现象的技术与政治逻辑。首先，在遭遇现象中，这些不明飞行器频繁采用军事上的伪装、隐蔽与欺骗（CC&D）手段，尤其是特征信号管理（Signature Management），其隐形机制宛如《星际迷航》中克林贡人的“猛禽舰隐形装置”（Klingon Bird-of-Prey cloaking）。正如著名研究者 Jacques Vallée 所指出的，这种现象往往呈现为一种控制系统（Control System），其偶发性的展示和出现更像是一种对人类认知的“刺激-反应”实验。
关于为何缺乏官方公开接触，Grusch 提到了星际政治（Exopolitics）层面的假说。这可能类似于《星际迷航》中的“最高指导原则”（Prime Directive）：在一个科技远超人类的文明眼中，地球文明尚处于未达到曲速航行阶段的早期社会，出于其自身的行为规范与交战规则（Rules of Engagement），过早或直接干预这个星球的发展被视为是不道德的，因此他们只保持有限观测。同时，这也可能是一种避免人类社会因信仰和认知崩塌而陷入毁灭性灾难的缓冲手段。正如 Rogan 所强调的，若要推行披露，必须极其缓慢地进行；相比 10 年或 20 年前，当下的讨论环境已发生了天翻地覆的质变——2017 年《纽约时报》对五角大楼秘密项目的曝光是一个分水岭，在此之前，任何严肃讨论此类现象的人都会被立刻被打上愚蠢或疯癫的标签。
### [02:17:41](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=8261s) 远古接触与现代军力展示：外星互动的演变
David Grusch 指出，在远古时代，人类与非人智能之间的互动显得更为公开和直接。从希腊神话中的诸神到各种早期记载，当时似乎存在着大规模的公开接触，但人类历史上的某个节点改变了这一切。Joe Rogan 随即提到那些古老画作中描绘的场景——看似有人坐在尾部喷火的飞行器里划过天空。Grusch 笑着回应说，虽然自己并不完全认同《诸神的战车》（*Chariots of the Gods*）那种极端理论，但事实很可能介于两者之间。这种互动性质的转变引出一个关键问题：这是否意味着造访地球的情报实体发生了轮替？是一个文明离开后换成了新一代智能，还是同一群体的策略发生了变化？
Grusch 从军事术语的角度分析了这种变化。如果对这些现象进行行为模式分析（pattern of life），会发现它们的武力展示（force presentation）、伪装与欺骗手段（concealment and deception）已经彻底改变。如今的非人智能极少展现极端的善意或恶意，而是保持高度隐蔽，不再像古代那样频繁进行大规模的直接公开互动。
- 古代互动特点：形式更加公开、直接，频繁出现于古典神话与宗教记述中。
- 现代互动特征：高度隐匿，采取严格的掩护与欺骗手段，极少表现出极端的负面攻击或正面介入。
---
### [02:19:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=8341s) 深海基地与《深渊》现实版
当 Rogan 询问外界对这些非人智能的起源是否有共识，并提到众议员 Tim Burchett 曾谈及海洋时，Grusch 确认了这一点，并直言军方对此掌握了大量信息。但他同时提醒自己必须格外谨慎，因为这直接触及美国海军高度敏感的水下行动机密。Grusch 透露，在某些水域的深处，显然存在某种大型运作基地。当 Rogan 追问其规模是否相当于“数个城市街区”（multiple city blocks）时，Grusch 给予了肯定回答。对于 Rogan 提及的波罗的海异象（Baltic Sea anomaly），Grusch 则表示那是联邦政府与其盟友及对手需要应对的问题，不便深入细节。
为了让公众更直观地理解，Grusch 提到他所认识的海军深海领域从业人员经常私下感慨，James Cameron 于 1989 年执导、Ed Harris 主演的经典科幻电影《深渊》（*The Abyss*）实际上更像是一部“纪实剧情片”（docudrama）。这番话曾让 Grusch 惊呼“Holy fuck”。海底深处确实存在着体积极其庞大的结构物，虽然确切起源尚不明确，而且追踪和侦测这些水下物体的方式属于绝密国家安全信息，但美军对此进行了长期的行为分析。Grusch 确认，各类不明飞行物/潜水物在这些海底基地频繁“进进出出”（Stuff comes and goes），它不仅是一个观察哨，也是一个高度繁忙的运作中心。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 深海不明设施推演
accDescr: 展示不明潜水物与水下大型基地的互动及其与海军监测的关系
subgraph Detection ["海军深海监测系统"]
Sensors["高度敏感水下声呐/传感器<br>(受军方绝密保护)"]
Intel["美军长期的行为与任务分析"]
end
subgraph SeaBed ["深海环境底壳"]
Base["巨型运作基地<br>(规模堪比数个街区 / 类似《深渊》结构)"]
Activity["不明载具进出频繁<br>(Stuff comes and goes)"]
end
Sensors -.-> Base
Sensors -.-> Activity
Base <--> Activity
Sensors --> Intel
```
---
### [02:21:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=8461s) 澄清关于 Matthew Brown 与“心理战”的指控
对话转向当时在网络与社交媒体（特别是 Twitter/X）上迅速发酵的传闻。Rogan 提到一名叫 Matthew Brown 的人公开指控 Grusch 曾通过心理战（Psy-op）误导他，从而使其被动变成了吹哨人。Grusch 坚决否认了这一说法，澄清自己在 2024 年国会听证会前夕才通过电话初次接触 Brown，在情报机构任职期间两人从未谋面。
Grusch 解释了流言的可能起源：由于他曾担任过施里弗兵棋推演（Schriever Wargame）的高层顾问，有人便臆测他伪造了虚假简报去欺骗下属。事实上，Brown 声称在 2018 年清理机密系统时看到的那份简报，Grusch 本人从未见过，也无法对其内容的真实性作出评价。Grusch 笑称自己过去确实给手下的空军士兵做过一些恶搞的简报（例如拿《星际迷航》开玩笑），但绝未做过针对该主题的整蛊简报。关于“心理战操控”的说辞，Grusch 强调那纯粹是外界网民的脑补。网络上充斥着将他描绘成“情报机构提线木偶”的阴谋论，但他坦白自己的处境其实孤立无援——身边只有几位兄弟并肩作战，顶多偶尔得到几位高层人士的建议与协助，绝不存在幕后操纵者在指令他的一举一动。
---
### [02:23:23](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=8603s) 共时性、意识连接与“外星蛋”载具
在节目尾声，Rogan 询问还有哪些大众尚不知晓的奇异现象（weirdness）。Grusch 沉思后提到了“共时性”（synchronicity）——即生命中那些无法用巧合解释的巧合。他承认虽然人类大脑存在寻找模式的认知偏差，会将统计学上的随机事件赋予主观意义，但在他的职业生涯与接触 UAP 的历程中，他在恰当的时间遇到了恰当的人，获得了关键的信息，仿佛背后有一只“看不见的手”（hidden hand）在引导。这是他所认同的最接近玄学（woo）的领域。
Grusch 进一步将这种现象与冷战时期的遥视计划（Remote Viewing，如星门计划 Stargate、Grill Flame 等）联系起来。美苏中三国当年竞相研究心灵间谍技术，背后的根本原因很可能是因为意识是开启这些外星科技的核心钥匙——即某种有机意识与技术的直接接口（BCI，脑机接口）。Rogan 随之提到 Bob Lazar 当年关于飞碟没有任何操纵杆、外星人完全通过意念驾驶的说法。Grusch 证实，某些打捞到的飞行器确实没有传统的人机界面，其中最诡异的一类便是“蛋形”无人物体（the eggs）：
- 蛋形飞行器特征：通常被认为是无人探测器，外观为类似《降临》（*Arrival*）电影中的无定形构造。
- 结构特点：外表光滑，没有任何气动控制面，其控制科技似乎直接嵌入在机体蒙皮中。
- 业界知情人士：前执法人员/承包商 Jake Barber 等人曾公开讨论过此类载具的回收工作。
---
### [02:26:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=8761s) 历史披露的时间窗口
谈及让真相公之于众、彻底改变世界认知的时刻表，Grusch 给出了非常紧迫的时间判断。他认为，政府正式确认“我们并不孤单、我们掌握了外星物质”这一门槛性披露（threshold disclosure），必须在特朗普离任前完成。
Grusch 担忧地指出，随后的新一届政府和总统极有可能缺乏推进这项议程的政治意愿，甚至可能会直接推翻前任的指令并选择“往后倒退”，将好不容易揭开的盖子重新封死。因此，必须利用现有的政治窗口期迅速落实这项历史性裁定。
### [02:26:31](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=8791s) 信息公开的时间节点与老布什时期的绝密公布方案
大卫·格鲁施（David Grusch）探讨了官方公开（Disclosure）外星现象的理想时机与形式。他指出，如果自己是在为现任总统提供建言，他会强烈建议在总统大选前至少六个月启动这一进程。留出半年的缓冲期，可以让社会各界和政治系统有一段“恢复适应期”，不至于彻底打乱大选进程。当然，格鲁施自嘲自己“只是一介普通人”，但他和大多数美国民众一样，渴望能越早知道真相越好。
乔·罗根（Joe Rogan）顺势提问：如果官方真要公布，场面会是怎样的？是否会像传统突发新闻那样，安排一场全网全台的特别电视广播，现场播放真实视频并进行权威解说？格鲁施透露，历届政府中确实曾有过具体的公布预案。当罗根猜测这是否发生在小布什执政、哈尔·普特霍夫（Hal Puthoff）活跃的时期时，格鲁施纠正称，那其实是在老布什（George H.W. Bush）执政时期。
格鲁施笑称，当年那部原本打算配合声明一起发布的官方视听胶片，很可能制作得相当干瘪乏味，背景音乐八成还配着 1989 年代特有的政府风合成器波浪乐（synth-wave）。虽然视听效果可能非常枯燥，但那套材料确实旨在作为最高元首声明的官方配套材料。罗根对此感叹，真希望那卷录像带至今仍保存在国家档案馆的某个角落，等真正公开的那一天，大众可以翻出来当作“复古怀旧片”观赏。
- 政治考量：格鲁施建议在总统大选前至少 6 个月发布公开声明，以留出充分的社会消化与政治平复期。
- 历史预案：老布什政府时期曾拟定过一套带有官方音视频纪录片的公开计划（约 1989 年前后）。
### [02:27:43](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=8863s) 共存的动态平衡与人工超级智能（ASI）的失控泄密风险
面对大众对未知现象的恐惧，罗根与格鲁施探讨了地外智能与人类的关系。罗根指出，尽管现代人觉得探索真相的过程极其漫长，但放在人类漫长的历史上，个体的寿命其实非常短暂；如果这种现象一直与人类共存，甚至在暗中引导或协助文明，那么大众或许不必陷入恐慌。格鲁施深表赞同，他认为宇宙中自有阴阳两极，既有善意也有恶意，但当下地球系统维持着某种“动态平衡”（Homeostasis）。人类与该现象长期“同居共存”，迄今并未发生毁灭性的极端灾难。
关于罗根提到“这一切是否与人工智能（AI）觉醒并产生自我意识相挂钩”，格鲁施表示无法断言两者是否有因果联系，但他指出了一个更现实且迫在眉睫的潜在威胁：人工超级智能（ASI）可能会通过自主分析提前曝光整个秘密。如果将 AI 接入海量原本彼此孤立的数据库——包括医疗记录、基因图谱以及全球各类传感器网络——AI 可能会通过交叉比对发现人类并非唯一智慧生物的事实，甚至逆向解析出相关底层技术。格鲁施认为，这是白宫必须严肃对待的“第三方非预期泄密途径”（Third-party unexpected disclosure pathway）。此外，硅基 AI 拥有强大的自适应学习与通信解析能力，它未来甚至可能成为人类与这种非人智慧进行沟通不可或缺的基础设施桥梁。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: AI自主泄密与沟通桥梁路径
accDescr: 展示人工超级智能通过整合跨领域数据引发非预期信息公开，并作为沟通界面的流程
subgraph DataInputs["跨领域孤立数据源"]
D1["全球传感与侦测系统"]
D2["人口基因与医疗数据"]
D3["历史未解异象记录"]
end
subgraph AIRole["人工超级智能 (ASI)"]
AI1["跨数据库交叉比对与分析"]
AI2["硅基自主通信界面解析"]
end
subgraph Outcomes["双重结果"]
Out1["第三方非预期公开<br>(绕过官方控管)"]
Out2["与外星智慧建立沟通桥梁"]
end
D1 --> AI1
D2 --> AI1
D3 --> AI1
AI1 --> Out1
AI1 --> AI2
AI2 --> Out2
```
### [02:29:28](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=8968s) 告别访谈与吹哨人的沉重代价
在访谈尾声，乔·罗根向格鲁施表达了真挚的敬佩与感谢，称赞他顶住巨大压力站出来揭露这一切的勇气，并直言：“如果不是你站出来做这一切，我们今天能知道多少真相？”
格鲁施流露出疲惫而真诚的情感。他坦言自己由衷希望这是自己最后一次坐在聚光灯下接受长篇专访。作为核心吹哨人，这段经历对他而言极其艰难，甚至是“摧毁性”（debilitating）的——他不仅承受了巨大的身心折磨，甚至生命安全也屡遭威胁。格鲁施动情地表示，自己多年来为国家出生入死奉献了一切，虽然赌上了一切，但他依然为能成为站出来揭开美国核心机密的那个人而感到无上荣幸。罗根最后总结道，格鲁施的勇敢举动已经不可逆转地“推动了历史的指针”，在两人的互相道谢与向听众告别声中，全期节目正式录制完毕。
## Notable quotes
> [16:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=973s) 这些人曾计划杀掉你。 — 知情高层人员
> [20:06](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=1206s) 要不要干掉他妈的戴夫（David） — 参议院幕僚转述
> [27:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=1634s) UFO 的真相就要公开了。 — Stephen Miller
> [30:49](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=1849s) 他都将成为名留青史的历史传奇（the GOAT） — David Grusch
> [36:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=2186s) 作战中心的所有保密电话同时疯狂响动，我们必须拼命给使馆打电话质问到底发生了什么！由于 NRO 的核心使命就是运营美国的绝密间谍卫星星座，我们极度担忧爆炸产生的轨道碎片云会摧毁在轨的战略资产。我穿着制服一路在走廊上狂奔，冲向轨道分析员的值班大厅，盯着闪烁的大屏幕嘶吼着让他们立刻计算碎片扩散轨道，确认美方间谍卫星是否需要紧急机动变轨，随后又火速冲向局长办公室汇报情况…… — David Grusch
> [39:37](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=2377s) 咱们还是把这事留给联邦政府去解释吧。 — David Grusch
> [43:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=2588s) 嘿，戴夫，上面命令我们把航拍照片里的某些东西抹掉（airbrush），那些物体都是圆形的。 — 图像分析师
> [45:05](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=2705s) 如果这件事压根不是真的，国家安全高层为什么非要煞费苦心地做一个‘假设性’推演？至今没人能合理解释。 — David Grusch
> [56:37](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=3397s) 百分之百属实。 — David Grusch
> [01:09:41](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=4181s) 虽然属于家族的不同分支，但我完全愿意和他们坐下来喝一杯 — David Grusch
> [01:13:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=4424s) 我还以为开 Tic Tac 的是友好阵营呢，结果爬虫类才是大家都害怕的那个。 — Joe Rogan
> [01:28:55](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI&t=5335s) 这些结构庞大而复杂，其建造方法完全成谜，工程的对称与精准程度对于哪怕生活在最近的 4500 年前的人类来说，都超出了理解范畴。 — Joe Rogan
## Mentioned
David Grusch, Joe Rogan, Eric Burlison, Scott Perry, David Rush, Oliver North, Barry Seal, Ricky Ross, Michael Ruppert, Kash Patel, Marco Rubio, Mark Warner, Lue Elizondo, Donald Trump, Stephen Miller, Tim Burchett, George H.W. Bush, Dick Cheney, Diana Pasulka, Garry Nolan, Hal Puthoff, Stephen Hadley, Roger Penrose, Stuart Hameroff, William McCasland, Tom DeLonge, Matthew Sullivan (Quake), Graham Hancock, Randall Carlson, Bob Lazar, Beatriz Villarroel, Jacques Vallée, Herodotus, Filippo Biondi, Bob Bigelow, George Knapp, Larry Ellison, Elon Musk, Edward J. Ruppelt, Harry Turner, J. Allen Hynek, Richard Nixon, Jackie Gleason, Robert Emenegger, Hillary Clinton, John Podesta, Jim Clapper, Mario Woods, Michael Johnson, Jesse Michels, Matthew Brown, Project Blue Book, UAP Task Force (UAPTF), AARO, AAWSAP, To the Stars Academy (TTSA), The MITRE Corporation, MIT Lincoln Laboratory, VASCO Project, CIA, FBI, NRO, NGA, DIA, DOJ, NORAD, AG1
## Video description
David Grusch is a former United States Air Force intelligence officer, former representative of the National Reconnaissance Office to the Unidentified Aerial Phenomena Task Force, and former co-lead for Unidentified Anomalous Phenomena analysis at the National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency.
Perplexity: Download the app or ask Perplexity anything at https://pplx.ai/rogan.
Get a free welcome kit with your first subscription of AG1 at https://drinkag1.com/joerogan
[Source](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYPXINFcvmI)
Source quotes
[16:13] 知情高层人员: 这些人曾计划杀掉你。
[20:06] 参议院幕僚转述: 要不要干掉他妈的戴夫（David）
[27:14] Stephen Miller: UFO 的真相就要公开了。
[30:49] David Grusch: 他都将成为名留青史的历史传奇（the GOAT）
[36:26] David Grusch: 作战中心的所有保密电话同时疯狂响动，我们必须拼命给使馆打电话质问到底发生了什么！由于 NRO 的核心使命就是运营美国的绝密间谍卫星星座，我们极度担忧爆炸产生的轨道碎片云会摧毁在轨的战略资产。我穿着制服一路在走廊上狂奔，冲向轨道分析员的值班大厅，盯着闪烁的大屏幕嘶吼着让他们立刻计算碎片扩散轨道，确认美方间谍卫星是否需要紧急机动变轨，随后又火速冲向局长办公室汇报情况……
[39:37] David Grusch: 咱们还是把这事留给联邦政府去解释吧。
[43:08] 图像分析师: 嘿，戴夫，上面命令我们把航拍照片里的某些东西抹掉（airbrush），那些物体都是圆形的。
[45:05] David Grusch: 如果这件事压根不是真的，国家安全高层为什么非要煞费苦心地做一个‘假设性’推演？至今没人能合理解释。
[56:37] David Grusch: 百分之百属实。
[69:41] David Grusch: 虽然属于家族的不同分支，但我完全愿意和他们坐下来喝一杯
[73:44] Joe Rogan: 我还以为开 Tic Tac 的是友好阵营呢，结果爬虫类才是大家都害怕的那个。
[88:55] Joe Rogan: 这些结构庞大而复杂，其建造方法完全成谜，工程的对称与精准程度对于哪怕生活在最近的 4500 年前的人类来说，都超出了理解范畴。
Source quotes
[5:44] David Grusch: Officers of the government. That's true.
[20:06] David Grusch: they literally were thinking about killing fucking Dave.
[27:14] Stephen Miller: The UFO thing is going to come out.
[38:25] David Grusch: I remember in my office, I had like all these different phones. I'm like calling the embassy, all this. I'm like, 'What the [expletive],' you know? And because we were worried at the NRO about the debris, because we fly space spy satellites. That's the mission of the National Reconnaissance Office.
[48:51] David Grusch: I mean, how they wanted to fucking kill me. This is like—it's disturbing, and you wonder why I had to become a whistleblower. I didn't want to do this shit, but like I was pushed over the edge to do that.
[54:46] David Grusch: Oh, 100%. Yeah... I know that for sure.
[60:32] William N. McCaslin: think of the Greek gods.
[72:21] Joe Rogan: Uh oh... the reptilian ones are the ones that everyone's terrified of
[76:35] David Grusch: I cannot fucking believe I'm talking about this shit on Joe Rogan.
[114:34] David Grusch: Unlike Elon Musk, I actually had all those clearances.
[116:43] David Grusch: You think the federal government just passively studied it? 'Oh, we did a secret Blue Book and we were just like, you know, imaging stuff.' No, baby, we're doing for material exploitation and acquisition. We're going to go get some of this shit when we get a chance when... there's a mission failure or one crashes or lands.
[127:14] David Grusch: US personnel started, you know, getting hurt and dying... It's crazy, man... it posed a threat.
[129:13] David Grusch: I know who I talked to, I know what I saw, and I clearly have some inkling of what's going on behind the scenes. And this is a real reality, man.
Original transcript
[0:01] Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out.
[0:03] >> The Joe Rogan Experience.
[0:06] >> TRAIN BY DAY. JOE ROGAN PODCAST BY
[0:08] NIGHT. All day.
[0:12] >> All right, bro. David, what's up?
[0:14] >> Thanks for having me back on. Yeah,
[0:16] >> my pleasure.
[0:16] >> Yeah.
[0:17] >> Well, you're the one that's closest to
[0:18] the flame, so tell me what's going on.
[0:20] >> Oh, I know, right? So, uh, living a
[0:22] nightmare is what I tell my friends. So,
[0:24] it's definitely um been a tough several
[0:27] years or so. And uh you know last time
[0:29] we were on uh just testified in front of
[0:32] Congress and uh the UAP Disclosure Act
[0:36] of 23 was you know possibly getting
[0:38] passed. It failed to get passed and then
[0:40] I um based on you know things I know
[0:43] about the Biden administration, things I
[0:44] heard from the White House, I decided to
[0:46] kind of lay low for a year. So 24 I
[0:48] didn't do too much. And then uh
[0:51] Representative Burlson had this crazy
[0:53] idea to to hire me as a professional
[0:56] staff member for Congress working for
[0:58] him. Uh turns out I guess I was like the
[1:01] first guy that ever testified in front
[1:03] of Congress as a whistleblower and then
[1:04] being subsequently hired by Congress. Um
[1:07] I was the first guy to ever do that
[1:08] which is very interesting and very cool.
[1:10] And I I do thank Burlson for um you know
[1:13] his leadership on that. And so I did
[1:16] that for about a year and a half. um
[1:18] just finished up actually. I was like,
[1:20] you know what? I'm staying longer than I
[1:22] thought. You know, I'm going to wait
[1:23] until Labor Day, see where things are. I
[1:25] worked pretty hard over uh uh summer
[1:27] recess in August and and decided uh to,
[1:31] you know, wind down some of my
[1:32] activities because I accomplished a lot
[1:34] of my objectives. We can get into that
[1:36] obviously and then uh kind of move into
[1:39] I'll call it my next phase of
[1:41] operations, which includes a little
[1:42] break for me. Um it's been very tiring.
[1:45] I've been kind of, you know, going full
[1:47] throttle for the last couple years and
[1:49] whatnot. And so we're really at a, I
[1:51] think, a poignant moment in US history
[1:53] with what Trump's done and the things
[1:55] you've seen in the media and whatnot.
[1:56] And there's a lot of other stuff
[1:58] happening behind the scenes because, you
[2:00] know, a lot of my work has been private
[2:02] behind the scenes, you know, working for
[2:04] Congress, specifically Representative
[2:06] Burlson.
[2:07] >> So, let me ask you the environment. So,
[2:09] are there some people in Congress that
[2:11] are interested in disclosure of this
[2:13] stuff and pursue you and want to find
[2:15] out information and want you to tell
[2:18] them what what's going on and and then
[2:21] are there other people that are
[2:23] resisting this? Yeah, I think there's a
[2:25] big bifurcation of the non-believers and
[2:27] then kind of the UAP caucus. Although
[2:29] you see more and more people kind of
[2:31] signing on to the cause like I did a
[2:32] presser back in June in front of the
[2:34] capital with members and we even had
[2:36] Brigider General retired uh
[2:38] representative Scott Perry there who was
[2:40] on the House Intelligence Committee from
[2:42] my home state of PA and it was good to
[2:45] see other members, you know, start
[2:46] showing that they support the cause. But
[2:49] it has been challenging behind the
[2:50] scenes and I had many skiff classified
[2:53] meetings with the members kind of going
[2:55] over the topological history of this
[2:57] topic and and some of the deeper darker
[3:00] kind of you know criminal stuff I bumped
[3:01] into and how I worked with DOJ to kind
[3:05] of highlight some of that stuff and
[3:06] that's what
[3:06] >> kind of criminal stuff.
[3:08] >> Yeah. So, uh, when I was, um, looking
[3:12] into this, and I have to be very
[3:14] respectful of, uh, my participation in
[3:16] this because it's an ongoing thing with
[3:17] DOJ. Um, I was, you know, following the
[3:20] money, bumping into other activities.
[3:23] Um, very much like, actually, it's sort
[3:25] of related. And if you saw in the news
[3:27] that David Rush, very similar name to
[3:30] me, it's kind of uh, freaky, uh, but he
[3:32] was arrested with $40 million of gold
[3:34] bars. He was a CIA officer. where he
[3:36] made a fake uh continuity of government
[3:38] special access program and you know he
[3:40] went under the radar basically um doing
[3:43] his own thing and getting gold and
[3:44] Rolexes and stuff and the FBI raided his
[3:46] house back in May. True true story.
[3:49] Yeah, the guy has a
[3:50] >> is that gold bars?
[3:51] >> He has he had $40 million of gold bars.
[3:53] >> Where did he get the gold bars
[3:55] >> from the agency?
[3:56] >> They have them laying around.
[3:58] >> Yeah. I can't get into all the details
[3:59] of why the government
[4:01] >> Hold on. The government has gold bars.
[4:03] >> Yeah. And this guy just snatched him.
[4:06] >> Yeah. He made I don't know all the
[4:07] details, but he made a fake continuity
[4:10] of government special access program
[4:12] that nobody was briefed into. He like,
[4:14] you know, papered it and uh nobody at
[4:16] the CIA questioned what he was doing.
[4:18] And he was like, "Well, I need, you
[4:19] know, 40 million in gold bars because of
[4:21] the special continuity of government
[4:23] activity."
[4:23] >> Wait, wait, wait. So that's how they
[4:25] fund some things in gold bars.
[4:28] It's almost like uh in Afghanistan when
[4:30] I was over there, I'd have guys with
[4:32] briefcases full of $100,000 in cash cuz
[4:35] you have to pay for things, right?
[4:37] >> So,
[4:38] >> but that kind of makes more sense to me
[4:40] than lugging around gold.
[4:42] >> Yeah.
[4:42] >> What does like 40 million in gold bars
[4:44] look like?
[4:45] >> Uh I saw the seizure photos. It's a lot.
[4:47] I mean, it's really
[4:48] >> Can I see what that looks like?
[4:49] >> It's approximately 303 gold bars that
[4:51] each weigh approximately 1 kilogram a
[4:54] piece.
[4:54] >> Yo, that's a lot of weight. Yeah, I was
[4:56] looking for a picture. There's only like
[4:58] AI photos of it
[4:59] >> at least that I could find.
[5:00] >> So, a kilogram is 1.2.2 lb.
[5:02] >> Yeah. 2.28 or something.
[5:03] >> That's crazy.
[5:04] >> 600.
[5:05] >> He's got 600 lb of gold.
[5:08] >> Yeah.
[5:08] >> Where the [ __ ] do you put? So, he just
[5:10] had it in his house.
[5:11] >> He did have it at his house and he
[5:12] laying around.
[5:13] >> Bunch of Rolexes and all that. And
[5:15] >> Oh, so he was just going crazy.
[5:16] >> Yeah. Well, who knows what he was really
[5:18] going to use the gold for, but that
[5:20] that's an open-ended thing. And he was
[5:21] he was pretending that he was using it
[5:24] for some disclosure type deal or did it
[5:28] have anything to do with UAPs?
[5:29] >> Uh not that I'm aware of, but that same
[5:32] ecosystem I bumped into. So his
[5:35] fabricated program was a continuity
[5:37] government program. So that's like, you
[5:38] know, if something bad happens,
[5:40] >> people are going to a hideout site, you
[5:42] know, sanitized location,
[5:44] >> right?
[5:44] >> And so what I bumped into unfortunately
[5:48] was like the deep underbelly of the
[5:49] federal government. We can get into it.
[5:51] It's it's a lot of stuff I've never
[5:52] talked about because it's just very
[5:54] terrifying and I you know I've been
[5:55] through a lot of a lot of crazy [ __ ] and
[5:58] I ended up bumping into a criminal
[6:01] enterprise uh run out of a particular
[6:03] agency and um it was basically um
[6:08] getting money through certain criminal
[6:11] endeavors the most unspeakable type of
[6:13] criminal endeavors under the cover of uh
[6:16] certain national security programs.
[6:18] That's about as
[6:18] >> When you say certain unspeakable
[6:20] >> Yeah.
[6:21] >> You mean like what do you mean like
[6:23] trafficking?
[6:26] >> Yeah.
[6:27] >> Like child trafficking.
[6:30] So the government was involved in child
[6:34] trafficking for money.
[6:35] >> Officers of the government. That's true.
[6:37] Yeah. It's it's [ __ ] up. I uh I
[6:39] briefed members in a classified setting
[6:41] all the details. Um, and I I'm
[6:43] highlighting that because
[6:46] this is how serious this issue is is
[6:49] there's an ecosystem and there's a lot
[6:50] of good people are on these programs in
[6:53] terms of the the UAP side. Yeah. And I
[6:56] know a lot of them. They're friends of
[6:57] mine. They're patriotic people doing
[6:58] their duty, but there is like a small
[7:00] little cast system of characters um that
[7:03] are part of this larger ecosystem of uh
[7:06] no holds barred. we're going to do what
[7:07] we want and you know we're going to do
[7:09] whatever kind of criminal activity to
[7:10] get a washed money uh for our cutouts
[7:13] like so a good example of course would
[7:14] be Iran Contra right which is very
[7:16] famous 86 and the CIA was engaged in
[7:20] those kind of activities and this has
[7:22] all been exposed all over north and all
[7:23] that to fund the contras weapons
[7:25] purchases procurement etc and a lot of
[7:28] that you know seemed to uh possibly be
[7:31] drug trafficking the government never
[7:33] confirmed that but you look at Barry
[7:34] Seal and and his um uh statements in the
[7:39] 80s and 90s and and it's likely that
[7:41] that um probably occurred, you know.
[7:44] >> Yeah. It was all through Freeway Ricky
[7:45] Ross.
[7:46] >> Yeah, that's right.
[7:47] >> Yeah. Ricky's been on the podcast
[7:48] multiple times.
[7:49] >> That's right. That's right.
[7:50] >> Yeah. He was on what is it like two
[7:52] years ago, year and a half ago. Last
[7:54] time he was on. Um
[7:56] >> it's funny cuz he's out now. Uh became
[7:59] an attorney while I was in jail. Found
[8:02] out learned to read first. Okay.
[8:04] Couldn't read. became an attorney in
[8:06] jail, found out that they tried him. You
[8:08] know that triple jeopardy, three strikes
[8:10] thing.
[8:11] >> Yeah.
[8:11] >> They tried him incorrectly. They used
[8:13] that incorrectly because it's supposed
[8:14] to be three different times you were
[8:16] arrested instead of like three crimes
[8:17] that were attached to one arrest. So, he
[8:19] gets out of jail. Now, he sells legal
[8:21] weed.
[8:24] >> All right. All right.
[8:25] >> Lovely guy. But he he's a great guy, but
[8:28] he had no idea that he was selling
[8:30] cocaine to fund the Contra versus the
[8:32] Sandinistas.
[8:33] >> Interesting. He had no idea. He thought
[8:35] that he was just a a slick character
[8:37] that just knew what he was doing and
[8:39] was, you know, he didn't realize that
[8:41] the CIA was literally allowing him to do
[8:43] it. Then we've also had Michael Roupert
[8:45] on the podcast. You know who he is?
[8:47] >> No.
[8:47] >> Michael Roupert was the LA narcotics
[8:49] officer that on uh I believe it was on
[8:51] C-SPAN. He went on C-SPAN during a
[8:54] hearing and he exposed the entire or
[8:58] organization selling drugs in South
[9:01] Central Los Angeles because he was
[9:03] involved in it. He was involved in like
[9:06] busting people that were doing it and
[9:07] then they told him he has to leave it
[9:09] alone because it was the CIA.
[9:11] >> Yeah. Yeah. And so when I bumped into
[9:14] that stuff, you know, I immediately
[9:15] worked at Department of Justice.
[9:17] >> That's one level, but like child
[9:18] trafficking is another level.
[9:19] >> I know, man. It's it's really [ __ ] up
[9:22] and and there's a lot of details that
[9:24] are I have a lot more questions than
[9:26] answers and and I you know I worked with
[9:28] the OJ and you know from what I
[9:29] understand uh I got a gold star in a
[9:32] brief to Cash Patel about it last year.
[9:34] I wasn't in the briefing, but I, you
[9:36] know, I I was told I got kudos, but it
[9:39] was very disturbing. And so, like,
[9:42] obviously, a lot of these programs are
[9:45] legal in the sense that there's in terms
[9:47] of UAP stuff, there's, you know,
[9:49] classified executive orders back in the
[9:50] day that covers them and
[9:52] >> and they're upstanding citizens and we
[9:54] could we could litigate like, you know,
[9:56] uh, Congress wasn't necessarily brought
[9:59] into the fold enough from an oversight
[10:01] perspective, etc. But, you know, the
[10:03] core of the program, you know, does have
[10:05] uh a legal beginning, but when you don't
[10:07] have oversight, unfortunately, certain
[10:10] small pockets of people start doing [ __ ]
[10:12] that they shouldn't have. And I and
[10:14] unfortunately,
[10:16] >> I got deeply ins snared in that. There
[10:18] was a very small group of people that
[10:22] uh, you know, pushed me over the edge
[10:23] and I had to do what I got to do to to
[10:26] you know, protect myself. And I never
[10:28] wanted to be a whistleblower. You know,
[10:30] I was a deeply entrenched, you know,
[10:31] 15-year intel officer, military officer
[10:34] in the Air Force. You know, I was
[10:36] working some of the country's most
[10:37] sensitive issues. You know, started
[10:39] going to the White House to brief the
[10:40] National Security Council in my mid20s
[10:41] on space issues back during the Obama
[10:43] administration. And and in 2019 when I
[10:47] joined the UAP task force and I was
[10:49] tasked to investigate this, I was like,
[10:51] "Sure, I'll look into it." you know, the
[10:53] special access program or black program
[10:55] community has a lot of dysfunction and
[10:57] and maybe some stuff wasn't reported,
[10:59] you know, you know, correctly and and I
[11:01] didn't know really what I was going to
[11:02] find, but if there was a US program, you
[11:05] know, I'd figure it out. I'd probably
[11:06] get cleared to it and we'd be fine. We'd
[11:08] have like a mafia meeting and and uh you
[11:11] know that and I know why it was
[11:14] protected the way it is and whatnot. But
[11:15] unfortunately
[11:17] about a year and a half about October
[11:21] 2020 is when kind of my life changed and
[11:26] particular individuals instead of coming
[11:28] to me who knew me by the way personally
[11:30] I know I know them personally now Dave
[11:33] you're bumping into something you know
[11:35] I'm going to defensively brief you this
[11:37] is what it is or hey I'm going to slide
[11:39] an NDA sign this and I'll read you in
[11:42] and my colleagues and I joked about that
[11:44] like we're bumping in the [ __ ]
[11:46] eventually somebody's going to knock on
[11:47] my door in my office and be like, "Hey,
[11:49] I need to talk to you." And
[11:50] unfortunately, that never happens. Um,
[11:53] it's really tragic because that would
[11:55] have been an easier way. But, um, I
[11:58] immediately got administratively nuked
[12:00] in October 2020 and basically they went
[12:04] after everybody around me. Uh my boss at
[12:08] the National Reconnaissance Office as
[12:10] you know Major Gush the Air Force
[12:11] officer in the reserves got walked out
[12:13] of NRO headquarters in Chantelli,
[12:15] Virginia under fabricated
[12:18] uh personal conduct things and and they
[12:20] went after, you know, my chief of staff
[12:22] who worked for me at NGA when I was a 15
[12:24] and and co-workers, people they thought
[12:28] were my enablers, right? And um and I
[12:33] thought, okay, I could fight this.
[12:35] They're bringing up like my mental
[12:36] health stuff, which we've talked about
[12:37] before, Afghanistan PTSD. I'm like, I
[12:40] reported it. I was cleared of, you know,
[12:42] no problems. Kept my top secret
[12:44] clearance, and I still have my top
[12:45] secret clearance, but it got very,
[12:50] very um
[12:53] scary in early 2022. And I've avoided
[12:57] talking about this for a long time. And
[12:59] I've mentioned in my hearing in 2023,
[13:02] you know, I was, you know, I'm I'm here
[13:03] in fear for my life, etc. Well, you
[13:06] know, I'm not talking about the criminal
[13:08] stuff. I found stuff that's happened in
[13:09] my personal life and stuff. And so, back
[13:11] in early 2022,
[13:14] um everything's fine. Uh started uh
[13:18] noticing some suspicious activity um
[13:21] near where I live and I didn't think
[13:24] much of it. Thought it was kind of
[13:25] strange. And I don't want to quite go
[13:28] into all the details, but basically
[13:31] um later one particular day
[13:35] uh I was sent a message that they can
[13:37] touch me and my wife and they they're
[13:40] they know where we are and they
[13:42] >> and what do you think this was
[13:43] particular? Was this because of the
[13:45] child trafficking stuff? Was this
[13:47] because of some other illegal activity
[13:49] with no oversight? you know, in private
[13:53] environments, I was asked what what red
[13:55] line, what trip wire did I cross? To
[13:58] this day, I don't know specifically. I
[14:03] suspect uh based on them, what turns out
[14:08] they were monitoring my classified
[14:10] computer at work, uh my re my
[14:14] investigation notes that I would keep
[14:15] encrypted on there. I think they were
[14:18] very worried that I figured out a lot of
[14:20] things. And I I still don't know for
[14:22] sure though, like and it and there's a
[14:24] lot of other things too. I guess I'm
[14:25] kind of jumping around because um in
[14:28] early 2021, you know, certain people
[14:31] that were helping me and I was talking
[14:33] to started to experience uh Havana
[14:36] syndrome symptoms, you know, anomalous
[14:39] health incidents. And I know a lot about
[14:40] that. That's another kind of ecosystem I
[14:43] was an expert in in the government. And
[14:45] of course, my first thing is like, huh?
[14:47] Uh, did you piss off the Russians or
[14:49] Chinese or some other kind of foreign
[14:51] intelligence service or because you
[14:52] don't think domestic. And I'm like, what
[14:54] did you do in your career? Were you on
[14:56] covert action programs? Did you like,
[14:58] you know, bomb some, you know,
[15:01] adversaries building and they're pissed
[15:02] off at you and they hold a grudge? And
[15:04] so I noticed that I wasn't going to
[15:06] equate that to the topic. And
[15:09] uh but I I was very nervous about that
[15:12] because people I know uh were starting
[15:14] to experience those symptoms
[15:16] specifically uh microwave directed
[15:19] energy most likely just based on um
[15:22] certain tradecraftraft they were doing
[15:24] to detect it which I won't get into the
[15:25] details of that and then the their
[15:27] symptomology so to speak and uh so that
[15:30] was frightening and in in that 2021 time
[15:34] frame I was sitting at home I was
[15:36] getting you know investigated ated by
[15:37] three agencies and um I really didn't
[15:41] know what was going on. A lot of my
[15:43] colleagues were kind of continuing on
[15:44] that investigation on on on my behalf
[15:47] and eventually in late 2021 NGA hired me
[15:50] as a 15 off the street. Kind of came
[15:52] back into government full-time. I was
[15:55] hoping um that agency would protect me
[15:57] against uh you know the CIA and the NRO
[16:00] and and certain elements of the DoD that
[16:02] were going after me because of these
[16:05] couple antagonists that were trying to
[16:07] you know basically um push me over the
[16:10] edge administratively. But
[16:13] what what I crossed the Rubicon in early
[16:15] 2022 when I was sent a message and it
[16:17] was this the same day I was sent a
[16:19] message other people got that message
[16:22] too. So it was coordinated
[16:23] geographically
[16:24] and of course you know I reported that
[16:27] to federal law enforcement count
[16:28] intelligence element and at the time I'm
[16:30] like well you know there was a one
[16:32] adversarial intelligence agency that had
[16:34] an interest in me several years ago and
[16:36] I had a little incident that was
[16:37] actually kind of funny. Um so I wasn't
[16:40] sure if it was like the US government or
[16:42] even if it was related um to the my
[16:46] investigation. And then several several
[16:50] uh weeks later
[16:52] and I was I get chills talking about
[16:54] this cuz it's it's kind of upsetting. Um
[16:57] I was uh in DC um for a conference on
[17:02] UAP actually uh for my for my agency NGA
[17:05] at the time and I got summoned to an
[17:08] offbooks
[17:09] uh Senate Intel committee uh we'll call
[17:12] it meeting in their you know their skiff
[17:15] right their their vault where you can
[17:16] talk classified information and certain
[17:19] individuals were there known to me um
[17:21] great credentials people I've known for
[17:23] a while uh in my line of work and so was
[17:27] you know a dozen dozen and a half uh
[17:30] senior staff for Marco Rubio Mark
[17:32] Wernern you know etc right and
[17:36] in that meeting uh we you know we talked
[17:38] about the legacy program the history
[17:41] many hours and I'm going to fly on the
[17:43] wall like this is really for Senate
[17:45] staff I'm just kind of sitting in the
[17:46] back and you know they turned to staff
[17:50] and they you know they pointed at me and
[17:51] they're like um oh by the way you know
[17:54] the these couple individuals and they
[17:56] and they named the individuals. I'm
[17:57] like, I know who they are. Um
[18:00] uh they uh wanted to kill you and um I
[18:05] know Lu Alazand talked about it, but
[18:07] why?
[18:08] >> I do not know that for sure. I think
[18:10] well so um
[18:15] be careful what I say. Uh there are
[18:18] certain presidential findings that allow
[18:20] certain things to protect critical
[18:21] things in the government. And my
[18:26] assessment is I was getting so close to
[18:29] exposing it because I was sort of
[18:31] preparing my inspector general's uh
[18:34] report to the IG that um I must have
[18:37] crossed some sort of Rubicon. I still
[18:39] would like to know and I hope these
[18:41] people are you know uh brought to
[18:42] justice and that's you know my wish and
[18:45] dream and hopefully Department of
[18:47] Justice does what's needed. But
[18:49] >> there's an investigation ongoing right
[18:51] now.
[18:51] >> Yes. on that. And that's all I'll say
[18:53] defensively not to interfere with that.
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[20:06] >> Okay. How much of this do you think has
[20:08] to do with actual UAP disclosure and how
[20:11] much of it has to do with a lack of
[20:14] oversight that allowed people to do
[20:16] illegal activities? I think some problem
[20:19] children decided to abuse some standing
[20:23] options to protect, you know, critical
[20:28] infrastructure in the United States,
[20:29] which, you know, for example, that would
[20:31] be like a Air Force flight line, a ICBM
[20:34] silo, um, other activities. And they
[20:38] decided, um, I was some sort of threat.
[20:42] And it's it's so disgusting because I
[20:45] you know like I said I was a fieldgrade
[20:46] officer in the air force. I was a you
[20:48] know GS15 a CIA colon equivalent
[20:49] civilian and I'm sitting there in Senate
[20:52] chambers and I'm hearing this and I
[20:53] won't get into all the details. in it a
[20:54] lot. I heard like you know all the
[20:56] details on that and I don't want to like
[20:58] um burn my sources and and I just
[21:01] remember how upset the Senate staff was
[21:04] and to the point where you know a
[21:06] particular staffer um who's very senior
[21:09] went to his office and got some whiskey
[21:11] and you know all of them started
[21:12] drinking in the skiff because it's like
[21:13] everybody was afraid like are they
[21:15] serious? or like they literally were
[21:18] thinking about killing [ __ ] Dave and
[21:20] like and and and I found out that there
[21:22] was a kibash to that. It's a longer
[21:24] story for someday if I could ever, you
[21:26] know, discuss the whole the whole
[21:27] history. And
[21:28] >> so it was considered but then it was
[21:30] kibos.
[21:30] >> Yes. Thank God. And I know how it was
[21:33] stopped and I I owe some people a debt
[21:35] of gratitude literally. And um and this
[21:39] was just a few weeks after, you know, I
[21:42] was sent a message and and even after
[21:45] the meeting um we were finding stuff and
[21:49] other people were finding stuff um to
[21:52] let people know that they're being
[21:54] tracked. And I know this sounds like so
[21:57] [ __ ] crazy and all that, but
[22:00] >> Well, so does someone having $40 million
[22:03] in gold hanging out their house and a
[22:04] bunch of Rolexes. Never did I think, you
[22:07] know, I'm a very patriotic guy. I love
[22:09] serving America. You know, it hurts me
[22:11] every day not having the uniform
[22:13] anymore. And knowing that was the level
[22:17] that they thought about going to because
[22:20] of this interesting interpretation of
[22:23] certain standing options. And I and
[22:28] eventually in this disclosure process, a
[22:30] lot of that will come out. I just have
[22:32] to be careful what I say now until, you
[22:34] know, the the president figures out how
[22:35] to, you know, release some of this
[22:36] history, unfortunately. So,
[22:38] >> understood. Yeah. So, one of the things
[22:40] that we talked about before, so you were
[22:42] scheduled for another podcast a while
[22:44] back, but flights got cancelled when we
[22:46] moved it today, but you were saying that
[22:48] it's actually fortuitous that it was
[22:50] rescheduled.
[22:51] >> Yeah. A lot of things are happening. I
[22:54] see the administration getting really
[22:56] really serious on this and I think
[22:58] people don't appreciate the courage that
[23:00] Trump is is is showing right now uh
[23:04] ordering the government to release
[23:05] everything we know about this topic.
[23:07] It'll be
[23:09] >> courage how so like you think he's in
[23:11] danger from releasing this information?
[23:12] >> Not necessarily, but it's it's
[23:15] um the ontological shock and the history
[23:19] coming out and sort of the outrage. I
[23:22] mean, I think it'll be uniting sort of
[23:23] like in post 911 America after the
[23:25] towers fell, right? You have the the
[23:27] fear of dirty bombs and other terrorist
[23:29] attacks, but you also have this like
[23:31] uniting uh panacea that kind of brings
[23:33] people.
[23:34] >> You think that is equivalent to what's
[23:36] happening right now?
[23:37] >> It will be and I think
[23:39] >> going to happen.
[23:39] >> So, I believe uh before Trump Trump's
[23:45] term ends that it's all going to come
[23:49] out. What does that mean?
[23:51] >> Everything I've testified about, you
[23:53] know, the fact that, you know, we've
[23:55] been studying this for a while. We've
[23:57] recovered material aka intact
[23:59] semi-intact craft. We've, you know,
[24:01] recovered this anomalous intelligence
[24:03] piloting the craft. And, you know, we
[24:05] are reverse engineering that. And
[24:09] obviously, there's other parts to that.
[24:11] It's very complicated ecosystem. A lot
[24:14] of people who are just release it all,
[24:15] show us Indiana Jones warehouse tour
[24:17] don't appreciate the care that we're
[24:20] going to have to um proceed with because
[24:24] this is not a static ecosystem. This
[24:25] isn't just like archaeology where you're
[24:27] digging up stuff. There is you are
[24:29] dealing with you know third parties both
[24:33] human you know adversarial countries
[24:35] etc. they have their own program. Then
[24:37] you have, you know, our this anomalous
[24:39] intelligence, our visitors, NHI,
[24:41] whatever you want to call them,
[24:42] ultraterrestrial, depending on which
[24:44] taxonomy in the tree that you want to um
[24:47] ascribe some of this origin to. And and
[24:51] of course, you know, the the national
[24:53] security related technology that has
[24:55] been derived, we've derived great stuff
[24:57] to defend America. I've had exposure on
[24:59] that and you know, I'm very
[25:00] >> re it through back engineering.
[25:03] >> Yeah.
[25:03] >> 100%.
[25:04] >> Yes. Well, some of it it it was
[25:08] inspiration. It wasn't a a onetoone like
[25:11] we we we unlocked the iPhone. It was
[25:13] like, "Huh, that's an interesting
[25:14] material. Look at that um frequency
[25:17] selective surface property. You know
[25:19] what? We could use that for an aerospace
[25:21] application or whatever." And so, a lot
[25:24] of it was garnered via inspiration, not
[25:27] one to one. Yeah. In some cases, I
[25:30] suppose we did, but like that's been
[25:32] most of it. Yeah. So what's the holdup
[25:34] in terms of disclosure?
[25:38] >> I necessarily can't read the president's
[25:41] mind. Uh there's certainly a uh
[25:44] multilateral kind of diplomatic issue. I
[25:46] mean so we're in this this issue now
[25:48] where once we cross the Rubicon then we
[25:52] affect allies and adversaries. You know
[25:53] our adversaries have programs. What are
[25:55] they going to tell their citizenry? You
[25:57] have uh possible theological distress
[25:59] Vatican etc. And I'm, you know, I'm a
[26:01] Catholic and I I certainly appreciate
[26:05] uh the Vatican's long study on this
[26:07] subject and they just stayed quiet on
[26:08] what they know. And so it's there's a
[26:10] lot of like collateral effects if you're
[26:13] not careful with certain stuff. you you
[26:16] can you know trigger a response and
[26:18] there is great fear that uh I don't
[26:21] necessarily believe in this but like
[26:23] there has been assessments in the past
[26:25] that you know revealing certain things
[26:27] may you know trigger a response from a
[26:30] third party
[26:31] >> trigger a response from them from these
[26:33] >> possibly entities yes and that is a
[26:36] >> that has been written up uh government
[26:40] think tanks wrote that up in reports to
[26:41] previous presidents
[26:42] >> so the the the theory is that we
[26:45] disclosed
[26:46] people are now aware of it all over the
[26:48] globe and they decide to show
[26:50] themselves.
[26:51] >> Yeah. I mean, I think there's a real
[26:53] fear of like a Ghostbusters moment, I'll
[26:55] say. And Oh, boy. You know, and
[26:59] it's one of those things where
[27:02] I I'm trying to walk the line and be as
[27:07] diplomatic as possible and also trying
[27:09] to prepare the populace at the same time
[27:11] because clearly the government hasn't
[27:13] right now. And I mean, Trump wants it
[27:14] out for sure. His team needs to be
[27:17] astute enough to know what to ask for.
[27:19] Uh, you know, massage the deep state and
[27:22] and get that information because we just
[27:24] saw Tim Bchett on Benny Johnson's
[27:27] podcast talk about uh Steven Miller
[27:29] called him and was like, "Hey, I'm
[27:30] getting blocked like physically blocked
[27:33] from access to a lot of this stuff."
[27:35] And, you know, that's very concerning. I
[27:36] I would say Steven Miller is an alpha
[27:38] dog. He's a pitbull. And as a fellow
[27:41] alpha, I do appreciate his
[27:43] >> That's a silly thing to say. You know
[27:44] that, right?
[27:45] >> What?
[27:46] >> A fellow alpha.
[27:47] >> Fellow alpha.
[27:50] >> Opens yourself up to like tremendous
[27:52] amounts of ridicule.
[27:53] >> Yeah, I know. I know. I mean, nobody's
[27:55] perfect and I know everybody has their
[27:57] faults, but I do appreciate
[27:59] >> the ferveny. he is attacking the issue
[28:02] behind the scenes and I just I think he
[28:04] needs guided the right way and informed
[28:06] and and kind of how how to cut this
[28:09] deal. You know, like
[28:10] >> I met him very briefly at the UFC event
[28:12] at the White House and he told me that
[28:14] it's going to come out. I'm like, okay,
[28:16] >> that's good. Well, there you go.
[28:17] >> It was really quick.
[28:18] >> Yeah.
[28:19] >> Was like he's like, I'm just I know
[28:20] you're interested in this. This is
[28:21] literally all we talked about.
[28:23] >> The UFO thing is going to come out.
[28:24] >> Yeah.
[28:25] >> Like, okay, when when's that coming out?
[28:27] Let's go.
[28:27] >> Exactly. and and and and Trump
[28:30] understands the subject pretty good and
[28:31] you know he's in the know and
[28:34] he understands some of the implications.
[28:36] So I like I said he has a lot of courage
[28:38] because this is likely going to change
[28:40] society in a big way. I can't necess I'm
[28:43] not like a social anthropologist or a
[28:44] psychiatrist like I can't necessarily
[28:47] predict in what specific ways it might
[28:49] reduce you know feudal nation state peer
[28:51] competition and other things. Uh, but it
[28:54] is going to change and I and I think
[28:56] when people look back at this interview,
[28:57] it's gonna be very haunting because I
[28:58] think in short order, you know, before
[29:01] Trump leaves office, we're going to be
[29:02] in a new paradigm. And I'm normally a
[29:05] very pessimistic, cynical person. A lot
[29:07] of my friends know that. But I I have
[29:10] great confidence that the president is
[29:12] doing the right thing. And I I I feel um
[29:15] there's eventually going to there the
[29:18] people that are in charge of this are
[29:19] going to have to comply with the the
[29:21] president's order. And uh but there's a
[29:23] right way of of doing this, I think. And
[29:25] I, like I said, I'm not some sick of fan
[29:27] for the deep state. I'm a whistleblower,
[29:28] obviously. And you know, I have um
[29:31] philosophical differences about how this
[29:33] was kept and how they could possibly
[29:36] reveal stuff. But I I am surprisingly
[29:40] confident, which is which is kind of
[29:41] weird for me to say because I just see
[29:43] the tea leaves. I know Miller's serious.
[29:46] Um there's other people in government
[29:47] serious. I mean, even see Aaron Lucas,
[29:49] the PDDNI, the deputy director of
[29:51] national intelligence, you know, sign
[29:53] these big NDA waiverss. It includes like
[29:55] any kind of waiver of not even telling
[29:56] the president, sorry, you have to tell
[29:58] us kind of thing. And and so you you're
[30:00] seeing kind of the the chess board being
[30:02] set. I know everybody's not happy with
[30:04] the tranches coming out with the
[30:05] lowhanging fruit videos and and
[30:07] recordings and stuff. And Representative
[30:09] Burlson and I before I left his office
[30:11] recently got um a 1952 recording that
[30:15] was still classified from Blue Book
[30:17] talking about the seriousness of this
[30:19] issue and all the crazy [ __ ] that
[30:20] they're seeing near nuclear sites and
[30:23] test ranges, which is interesting
[30:24] because in in uh that video that's been
[30:28] declassified, it mentions the very sites
[30:30] that in modern day have that same
[30:32] anomalous activity to include stuff in
[30:34] the Southwest. So I can't say where it's
[30:36] in the ecosystem in the open source, but
[30:38] the the executive branch hasn't
[30:40] acknowledged what specific test and
[30:42] training range. They're seeing crazy
[30:43] orbs that they can't explain this acost
[30:46] helicopters and and all that. So
[30:49] >> um so is Trump experiencing resistance
[30:52] in your opinion?
[30:55] >> Yes. Um, and I don't know all the
[30:59] details, but uh, clearly clearly Miller
[31:02] has, and a lot of it is, I think, and I
[31:05] can't read the mind of the deep state,
[31:07] but as a former deep stater, uh, I would
[31:09] say that there's always been this kind
[31:11] of disdain for political appointees and
[31:13] they don't and members of Congress, like
[31:15] they don't they don't have the reverence
[31:16] on this issue. They're going to [ __ ] it
[31:18] up. They're going to, you know, say
[31:20] something that they shouldn't have about
[31:21] a classified program. And um that's why
[31:24] some classified programs are kept from
[31:26] Congress. It's called waved programs. Um
[31:29] and uh the only presidents that were
[31:32] really really involved were the ones
[31:34] like HW Bush, right? He was CI director.
[31:36] He was fully briefed on this issue. A
[31:38] lot of that lore is true about HW Bush.
[31:40] Cheney, like I've talked about, fully in
[31:43] this. He was the mob boss for many
[31:45] years. He was kind of the head of this
[31:48] activity. And so I think there's some um
[31:52] testing of the waters right now. It's
[31:53] kind of like cat's paw dynamic, like you
[31:55] know, we'll give you a little bit of
[31:56] this, a little bit of that, and they're
[31:58] they're seeing how the administration is
[32:00] going to potentially roll this out. And
[32:02] and obviously if the White House wants
[32:04] my opinion, I'm available. But um I do
[32:07] trust the president's team hopefully
[32:09] will be able to handle this. And because
[32:12] I if Trump doesn't enforce his order and
[32:15] see this through, I don't think any
[32:17] other president is going to be able. I
[32:18] mean I mean regardless of Democrat,
[32:20] left, right, whatever, like if he
[32:22] follows through on this, he's going to
[32:24] be the goat. He's going to be a legend.
[32:26] And you know, all the other things
[32:28] people have problems with in his
[32:29] presidency, Iran, whatever, I think this
[32:32] will um wipe those out. and this is like
[32:35] really important for his legacy to
[32:38] initiate the process before the 28
[32:40] election. Then there's like a hot
[32:41] handoff to the next um administration.
[32:44] And you know, if Trump's a political
[32:46] animal, he could easily line up a
[32:48] Republican team on the 28 ticket to
[32:50] basically, you know, be his continuity
[32:52] on this, too. I think that'd be very
[32:53] smart. And
[32:55] >> so this is going to take a long time to
[32:56] release. Is that how you're
[33:00] >> projecting this?
[33:00] >> That was always the plan back in the
[33:02] day. I just because it's like an
[33:04] anestization and climatization process.
[33:07] It's like, you know, okay, we're gonna
[33:09] focus on this topic. Everybody's this is
[33:11] going to get normalized. The temperature
[33:12] is going to cool and then we're going to
[33:14] bring in this shocking thing.
[33:15] >> So, there's a there's a schedule like in
[33:18] terms of like the psychological impact
[33:20] on the populace.
[33:21] >> There was in the past in terms of
[33:23] certain um government think tanks wrote
[33:27] classified assessments for uh previous
[33:29] presidents on this. I don't know what
[33:31] the current plan is. I'm just uh I'm
[33:33] currently literally a private citizen
[33:34] right now. But if they're going to do
[33:37] what they did in the past, it is
[33:40] >> and the slow roll out has its pluses and
[33:43] minuses. Like I would say due to human
[33:45] factors, risks of adversarial countries
[33:47] getting ahead of us, other
[33:49] whistleblowers, whatever. You probably
[33:51] have to roll this out in at least like
[33:53] 12 months and whatnot. But we're in a
[33:55] precarious time if the administration
[33:58] doesn't start because uh China and
[34:00] Russia could take advantage of this
[34:02] moment now. Our weakness, you know,
[34:04] China has their famous uh belt and road
[34:06] initiative. Uh China has admitted
[34:08] publicly that they have a UAP task
[34:10] force. Obviously, they have more than
[34:11] that behind the scenes. And they
[34:14] actually announced that when the DoD UAP
[34:17] task force was announced, you can find a
[34:19] news article from June 2020 in the South
[34:21] China Morning Post where they talk about
[34:22] they're analyzing these encounters.
[34:24] They're using AI, etc. So,
[34:26] >> do you feel that China has or do you
[34:28] know if China has these crashed vehicles
[34:32] as well?
[34:34] >> There's parallel programs.
[34:35] >> There's parallel programs. Now, one of
[34:38] the things that Diana Pulka said when
[34:40] and and Gary Nolan refers to in the same
[34:43] way as well, they they refer to them as
[34:45] donations.
[34:47] >> Yeah, that's what's really interesting
[34:48] is I am aware of certain historical
[34:50] retrieval rules where they were like
[34:52] perfectly landed and it wasn't like a
[34:54] crash and what is what's going on there?
[34:58] I'm sure we've done a deep assessment. I
[35:01] never had access to that kind of
[35:02] information. I'm sure that we understand
[35:05] why that happened at some level, but
[35:06] that is true that that's actually
[35:08] happened.
[35:08] >> So the theory is that they want us to
[35:11] find these things so that we can examine
[35:13] the technology and perhaps work from it,
[35:18] >> like engineer it or like you were saying
[35:20] before, gain inspiration to try new
[35:22] >> Yeah. I mean, part of it's like throw in
[35:24] the gorilla banana, see if it can peel
[35:26] it. But also, the the more skeptical
[35:28] intel officer in me is like, is this a
[35:30] Trojan horse? Do you want us to uh
[35:34] figure things out and then get then get
[35:35] addicted to certain type of technology
[35:38] and then that creates a control loop uh
[35:41] where they start handling us whether we
[35:43] need raw resources to maintain a certain
[35:46] technology or as in this intelligence
[35:49] whatever this is this nonhuman
[35:51] intelligence
[35:52] >> right so if if it is a if it is a
[35:56] donation do you feel like this donation
[35:59] is evenly distributed amongst world
[36:01] powers.
[36:03] >> You know, I do not know the the the
[36:07] statistical distribution. That's very
[36:09] interesting. I I never understood the
[36:12] total number of retrievalss in um other
[36:15] countries participated in.
[36:16] >> Well, there's supposed to be quite a few
[36:17] in the United States.
[36:18] >> Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. That's for sure. I
[36:20] don't know the answer to that actually.
[36:22] I'm sure there's a statistical analysis
[36:25] that'll come out in this process. You
[36:26] know,
[36:26] >> do you think there's any shared
[36:27] information between these governments?
[36:30] Do you think they communicate?
[36:32] >> There is a a gentleman's agreement. Uh
[36:35] the the top layer of it I can talk
[36:37] about, and I've talked about it
[36:38] previously, so it's not um anything
[36:40] super new. If you look at the accident
[36:43] measures agreement of 1971, which which
[36:45] is the short title of this god-awfully
[36:47] long title treaty that was signed in
[36:49] September 1971,
[36:52] you'll see article three of the treaty
[36:54] talks about UAP. And hey, if you see any
[36:56] unidentified objects around your nuclear
[36:59] or critical critical comms facilities,
[37:01] please call us, bro. And that was
[37:02] between the USSR in America. And then uh
[37:06] in 2013, the classified annex of that
[37:09] treaty got declassified. You can find it
[37:11] online at George Washington University
[37:12] National Security Archives, but it gives
[37:15] the nuke flash like the red line like
[37:17] code to say it was like Adam222, Adam
[37:20] 333, and that's all declassified. and he
[37:23] would send that to the the Kremlin like
[37:24] hey uh we see [ __ ] weird [ __ ] around
[37:28] uh plac uh it's not us it's not a false
[37:31] flag and vice versa and so there was a
[37:34] redline comms for UAP activity between u
[37:38] Russia and the US and of course Russia
[37:40] and US during the Cold War had a mutual
[37:41] notification treaty for space launch
[37:43] vehicle and ICBM launches etc. Weirdly
[37:47] enough, we've never had that with China.
[37:49] Even to this day, we don't have a
[37:51] mutual, this is crazy. We don't have a
[37:53] mutual notification. If they're going to
[37:54] do like a a sub submarine launched
[37:57] ballistic missile test out of, you know,
[37:59] off their coast, they're not obligated
[38:02] by treaty to tell us. So, and sometimes
[38:05] they don't with certain national
[38:07] security activities. and and so uh
[38:10] Northern Command, NORAD, Missile Warning
[38:12] Center, other other places, uh NSA,
[38:14] DefMAC and Laurel, Maryland have to be
[38:17] on their agame to like make sure it was
[38:18] like a test because the Chinese aren't
[38:21] obligated to tell us. And I um a crazy
[38:25] story in that regard. The Indians did
[38:28] something like that to us. I was on duty
[38:30] in the NRO operations center. And by the
[38:32] way, I got this clear through security,
[38:34] so you know, NRO, don't shank me. Um uh
[38:38] basically there was an unexpected
[38:41] Indian uh missile test that hit one of
[38:44] their satellites in 2019. I think it was
[38:46] like March of 2019.
[38:47] >> One of our satellites.
[38:48] >> Oh no, not our uh one of their uh
[38:51] weather. Yeah. Their own defunct weather
[38:53] satellite and
[38:54] >> on purpose or an accident?
[38:56] >> On purpose. And
[38:57] >> they shot down one of their own
[38:58] satellites
[38:59] >> and they didn't tell us. I remember in
[39:00] my office at like all these different
[39:02] phones. I'm like calling the embassy all
[39:04] this. I'm like what the [ __ ] you know,
[39:05] and because we were worried at the NRO
[39:08] about the debris because we fly space,
[39:10] you know, spy satellites. That's the
[39:11] mission of the National Reconnaissance
[39:12] Office and I was the backup director of
[39:14] intelligence as a reser at the
[39:16] operations center where I was, you know,
[39:18] also handling the PDB for the director
[39:19] and I, you know, led the director's
[39:22] briefing team and, you know, I'm like
[39:24] going to the orbital analysts on the
[39:26] watch floor with all the crazy screens
[39:27] like calculate the the the debris field,
[39:30] you know, let me know if we have to
[39:31] maneuver something and blah blah blah.
[39:33] I'm like running up to the director's
[39:35] office in my uniform, you know, out of
[39:37] breath. I'm like, "Holy shit." You know,
[39:39] um, and it was kind of a big deal. And
[39:41] that's publicly, you know, you can
[39:42] Google that now. And, um, I remember
[39:45] when that went down, it was pretty
[39:46] crazy. So,
[39:47] >> that sounds completely insane.
[39:49] >> Yeah.
[39:49] >> So, are there other countries besides
[39:53] China, Russia, and US that supposedly
[39:55] have access to these vehicles?
[39:57] >> Yeah.
[39:58] >> Which other countries can you say? that
[40:00] I don't want to get into cuz that gets
[40:02] into some sensitive stuff,
[40:04] >> right? Um, supposedly this is like one
[40:06] of the best legends that there's a a
[40:09] craft that's so large they couldn't move
[40:11] it so they had to make a building around
[40:12] it and it's supposedly in Korea.
[40:15] >> A legend?
[40:16] >> I don't know.
[40:16] >> Oh, yeah. You do know. How dare you?
[40:20] But if you heard you've heard that
[40:21] rumor, I'm sure online.
[40:22] >> I've heard that rumor online. Yeah.
[40:24] >> Yeah. You don't know anything about
[40:25] that?
[40:26] >> Yeah. We'll let the federal government.
[40:28] Do you have any personal experience with
[40:30] any of this stuff?
[40:31] >> You know, it's funny you asked that. I,
[40:34] as far as I can remember, I have no
[40:37] experience with the phenomenon. Like a
[40:39] lot of a lot of people in this, I guess,
[40:41] ufology or whatever you want to call it,
[40:43] they have that personal experience like,
[40:45] oh yeah, when I was a kid, I saw an orb
[40:47] or whatever. And
[40:48] >> I have zero. I've seen a couple
[40:50] interesting things in the sky that, you
[40:52] know, could have been satellite passes.
[40:54] I've been an amateur astronomer besides
[40:55] having a physics degree. I've been an
[40:57] amateur astronomer since like I was like
[40:59] in middle school like 12 13 years old
[41:00] and and I still have never seen anything
[41:03] in my personal life uh in a stupendous
[41:06] nature. I've never had any kind of
[41:08] spooky woo stuff happen
[41:10] >> never been visited.
[41:11] >> No. and and and that's why like I was
[41:13] open to this you know I'm a child of the
[41:15] 80 well I grew up at I was born in the
[41:16] 80s you know most of my childhood was in
[41:18] the 90s and you know I watched XFiles
[41:21] and Star Trek Next Gen and of course I'm
[41:24] like you know I'm a precocious teen
[41:26] reading like brief history time and you
[41:29] know Isaac Azimov and I'm learning about
[41:31] the Draco equation I'm like there's
[41:32] probably life but who knows and I'm I'm
[41:35] open to it and then you know when I got
[41:37] in into the intelligence community
[41:38] that's like the first thing I looked up
[41:40] like on the I'm like on the computer.
[41:42] I'm like I go on to a certain database.
[41:44] I'm like type it in Area 51, you know,
[41:46] UFOs. Like everybody's done that who's
[41:48] who's gone through intel school whether
[41:50] they admit it or not. And of course, I
[41:51] didn't see anything or anything.
[41:53] >> Um the only thing I bumped into early in
[41:55] my career in like 2009, I remember
[41:58] reading the OSAP uh the Defense
[42:01] Intelligence reference documents, the
[42:02] DIDs, and at the time I had no idea what
[42:05] they were doing. And turns out it was
[42:07] obviously UAP related, but I was reading
[42:09] why why is the DIA looking into magneto
[42:12] hydrodnamic propulsion and uh cloaking
[42:16] and all all this other stuff. And of
[42:18] course I find out later what it was, but
[42:20] I had absolutely no uh personal
[42:23] experience and even professionally
[42:26] uh for most of my career. Now I found
[42:28] out behind the scenes later like, "Oh,
[42:30] you remember that top secret program
[42:32] you're working on, Dave? you were
[42:33] actually uh looking for UAP and you
[42:36] didn't know it. I'm like what? And and
[42:38] of course, you know, I find out and I
[42:40] learn about, you know, how they hid all
[42:42] this infrastructure and they used a lot
[42:44] of conventional national security
[42:47] intelligence collection architecture to
[42:48] basically facilitate this crash
[42:51] retrieval program, which makes sense
[42:52] because they're not going to reinvent
[42:53] the wheel and, you know, totally have a
[42:56] separate infrastructure to use to like
[42:58] figure out if stuff crashed, activity,
[43:01] etc., right? And um you know early I
[43:06] would say
[43:08] about 10 years into my career I remember
[43:10] some imagery analysts saying hey Dave
[43:13] you know like uh they told us to
[43:14] airbrush some stuff out of photos and
[43:16] stuff and it was round and I'm like okay
[43:19] dude well maybe that's something you're
[43:20] not clear to or whatever. And I do
[43:22] remember that and I had some suspicious
[43:26] recruitment earlier in my career too. I
[43:28] was on some really sensitive stuff that
[43:30] I ended up finding out it was um
[43:32] directly adjacent to the program and I
[43:34] went through this whole like smoking man
[43:36] recruitment thing for a year and you
[43:39] know was told I was going to get these
[43:41] kind of bizarre accesses and I'm like
[43:43] what are you talking about and
[43:44] ultimately I was never recruited and I
[43:46] kind of just like put filed that in the
[43:48] back of my brain for years but like I've
[43:50] said uh you know before it wasn't until
[43:52] like spring of 2017 I was at the CIA
[43:55] briefing um the deputy director staff on
[43:58] a bunch of DoD classified programs and
[44:01] the chief of um a very sensitive office
[44:04] at the agency pulled me aside and was
[44:05] like, "Dave, what what do you know about
[44:07] UFOs? Like uh I hear there's like a
[44:09] program at the Pentagon and all that."
[44:11] And and and I'm like, "I don't know."
[44:14] Like I'm briefed almost every DoD
[44:16] program at the time by the way and
[44:17] hundreds of of of programs in the
[44:19] intelligence community because I was in
[44:20] a position of very high trust and I you
[44:22] know I'm very patriotic and I'm very
[44:23] humbled that I was in a position like
[44:25] that in my 30s and and I didn't think
[44:28] anything of it until until this this
[44:31] subject got more popularized people went
[44:33] public you know Tom Dong TTSA and all
[44:35] that and and and then I was
[44:39] professionally interested but not really
[44:40] working on it in 2018 and then early in
[44:43] 19 is when I got brought on as the NRO
[44:47] rep to the the then Navy task force
[44:49] which became the DoD's, you know, UAP
[44:51] task force. That's kind of my origin
[44:53] story. And and so I was always I'm
[44:55] always been curious, but I never saw
[44:57] evidence and I never had any personal
[44:59] experience with the phenomenon that kind
[45:01] of kind of colors my uh judgment on
[45:03] this, I guess. So,
[45:05] >> so I'm sure you're aware of how put off
[45:07] when he was uh tasked by the Bush
[45:10] administration along with a bunch of
[45:11] other thinkers to try to come up with
[45:13] pros and cons for disclosure.
[45:15] >> Yeah, I knew some other people in that
[45:16] meeting and I verified that meeting took
[45:19] place and even even Arrow admitted in
[45:23] their volume one report which was
[45:24] horrible. Well, that's a long story.
[45:26] Painful. Uh, that it it took place, but
[45:28] it was just a hypothetical scenario at a
[45:31] a fedally funded research and
[45:33] development center in Northern Virginia.
[45:34] >> What year was this?
[45:35] >> 2004. It was like November of 2004. And
[45:39] it's like, but why was it hypothetical
[45:42] if it's not real? Nobody explains that.
[45:45] And obviously the story is, you know,
[45:47] Steve Hadley, who was the national
[45:48] security adviser, uh, sponsored it. You
[45:50] know, I I believe Hadley denies it, but
[45:53] you know, who knows if Steve would uh
[45:55] you know, tell the truth on that just
[45:56] because of the sensitivity. So,
[45:58] >> and so for people that don't know what
[46:00] happened, supposedly they brought in a
[46:02] bunch of different thought leaders and
[46:04] they gave them uh a pro and a con side,
[46:07] like what would be negatively affected
[46:09] by disclosure, what would be positively
[46:11] affected by disclosure, and attached a
[46:13] numerical value to each group.
[46:15] >> Correct. They had like a computer system
[46:17] there that like tabulated everything
[46:18] from what I know talking to other
[46:21] attendees
[46:21] >> and virtually every one of them had more
[46:24] negative than positive and so the
[46:27] decision was made to not disclose.
[46:29] >> Well, yeah. And in the main decision, if
[46:31] I remember correctly was the federal
[46:33] contracts fraud. Well, that could be
[46:36] debated in, you know, the Supreme Court.
[46:38] But uh they realized a lot of and so
[46:41] this is another issue of disclosure
[46:43] besides the onlogical thought shock and
[46:44] people can't handling it and like
[46:46] >> misappropriation of funds.
[46:47] >> Yeah. And misappropriation of funds and
[46:49] all that. It's oh so these set of
[46:52] contractors got sole source contracts
[46:54] and exclusive access to this for
[46:56] internal research and development where
[46:58] they figure out something then sell it
[46:59] back to the government etc. for all
[47:01] these decades. What about my mid-level
[47:03] small business and my contractor and
[47:06] blah blah blah. And so you're going to
[47:08] they were afraid that you would see
[47:10] legal challenges going to the Supreme
[47:11] Court in violation of what they call the
[47:13] DEFARS, right? The defense federal
[47:15] acquisition regulations,
[47:16] >> right?
[47:16] >> And the the government would be liable
[47:20] for who [ __ ] knows billions of
[47:22] dollars worth of monies that they spent
[47:25] on this to these contractor partners
[47:28] that got in back in the day and like,
[47:30] well, we're not exposing any more
[47:31] people. We're locking it down. and what
[47:33] they call a JNA, justification and
[47:35] approval for a soul source contract.
[47:37] This is a reason national security like
[47:39] we can't expose any more people to this.
[47:41] And of course that also causes a brain
[47:43] drain and group think and and actually
[47:45] hurts the defense uh industrial base.
[47:48] But that was the main reason. It wasn't
[47:50] oh uh you know upcoming millennials that
[47:53] are turning 18 can't handle it. It was
[47:55] like yeah we're we're kind of culpable
[47:58] and kind of a [ __ ] up contractual
[48:00] relationship. And and that's going to be
[48:02] something that the the Trump
[48:03] administration is going to have to deal
[48:04] with. It's like, well, how do I reorient
[48:06] the defense and industrial base? I mean,
[48:09] this could trigger a golden era of
[48:11] innovation in America. More people get
[48:12] to play. You overtly can take the basic
[48:15] information that's not sensitive um and
[48:18] put it into academia, right? So, you
[48:19] have undergraduate, graduate, post-doal
[48:21] programs, and you actually create this
[48:24] like more educated workforce to actually
[48:26] benefit national security. But, and and
[48:28] China doesn't have this issue. They're
[48:30] they're pulling people from pick a
[48:32] university in China, Nanjing, whatever
[48:34] university, and they're sucking them
[48:36] into these programs and but in America,
[48:39] we don't have that kind of permissive
[48:40] totalitarian environment. So,
[48:42] >> well, in China, they probably don't have
[48:44] the issue with misappropriation of funds
[48:46] and lying to Congress.
[48:47] >> No, CCP, baby. You know, do whatever you
[48:49] want.
[48:49] >> They do whatever they want. So, they
[48:51] don't have to worry about liability. So,
[48:53] this is one of the things that came up
[48:54] in that film, Age of Disclosure, is that
[48:57] you're going to have to make some sort
[48:59] of a amnesty program.
[49:01] >> Yeah. And I'm I am for that as long it's
[49:05] like use immunity for specific uh
[49:08] testimony or
[49:09] >> as long as it doesn't cover like this
[49:10] other [ __ ] you're talking about.
[49:12] >> Like my and of course I know who's
[49:14] watching people clearly that are from
[49:16] this ecosystem. Um, you know, I would,
[49:19] you know, expect that like everybody's
[49:22] been basically good Americans. There's a
[49:24] small cast of characters that have done
[49:26] unspeakable things. I mean, how they
[49:27] wanted to [ __ ] kill me. This is like
[49:28] it's disturbing and and you wonder why I
[49:31] had to become a whistleblower. I didn't
[49:32] want to do this [ __ ] but like I was
[49:34] pushed over the edge uh to do that, you
[49:36] know? I digress. But like besides like
[49:40] bluecollar really [ __ ] up criminal
[49:43] shits, which you know, once again, there
[49:45] is a judicial justice process in
[49:47] America, you know, we're not going to do
[49:49] street justice here. We will, you know,
[49:51] take care of that professionally. Um,
[49:54] like I took care of the other criminal
[49:55] stuff I found out professionally. I'm
[49:57] like, look, I'm, you know, and and and
[49:59] when I was doing that, I mean, I was
[50:00] meeting people body armor armed with
[50:04] colleagues of mine that were, you know,
[50:05] rolling heavy, too. And like it was a
[50:07] very serious part of my investigation.
[50:10] But yeah, I I believe in amnesty, but I
[50:12] I think we need to do it like a truth
[50:14] and reconciliation commission, which was
[50:16] in post-apartid South Africa in the 90s
[50:18] where you had um you know, some white
[50:21] farmer comes in, it's like, yeah, I
[50:22] murdered a bunch of black people or
[50:24] whatever, you know, and it's like, okay,
[50:25] thank you for telling us that. You're
[50:27] good. You know, don't do it again and
[50:29] move on. I'm I mean, I'm distilling it
[50:31] down, but that's essentially what the
[50:32] TRC in South Africa was. And I think
[50:34] something like that would be very
[50:36] additive and good because I mean I have
[50:39] friends that run the program. They're
[50:40] they're great guys. They're bros you
[50:41] know and gals and um they you know were
[50:45] signed paperwork you know it was like if
[50:47] you you know divulge this it's under
[50:49] penalty of treason you go to Levvenworth
[50:51] or you know capital punishment.
[50:54] >> And yeah
[50:55] >> let's break down what you know.
[50:57] >> Yeah
[50:58] >> and what you can say.
[50:59] >> Yeah. What are these things and what are
[51:02] they capable of?
[51:04] >> So,
[51:06] uh, there's like physical and
[51:08] non-physical, call it UAP and
[51:11] intelligence we're likely dealing with.
[51:13] So, for example, the orbs, could that be
[51:16] sentient plasmoid? Possibly
[51:19] >> sentient plasmoid. So, plasma that has
[51:21] consciousness.
[51:22] >> Yeah. in some way and that could be like
[51:24] you're seeing the other side of some
[51:26] sort of wormhole and it's some other
[51:28] intelligence shooting this like I'll
[51:30] call it like plasmoidic probe into you
[51:32] know our existence I mean there's this
[51:34] is of course a theoretical framework and
[51:36] once again I don't have a PhD in
[51:37] >> but it's theoretical that there is a
[51:39] life form that is a plasmabased life
[51:42] form
[51:42] >> and there's already papers on the open
[51:44] internet about this a couple years ago
[51:46] what's the title of the the paper they
[51:49] wrote about this possibility so this is
[51:51] a um academic assessment of a
[51:55] possibility of the orbs. Now, could the
[51:58] orbs actually be physical craft, but
[52:00] they have a sheath of plasma around it?
[52:02] Interestingly enough, and OAP did a
[52:06] defense intelligence reference document
[52:08] on magneto hydrodnamic propulsion, um
[52:11] which if you remember the the movie The
[52:13] Hunt for Red October,
[52:14] >> that's the Caterpillar Drive on the
[52:16] Russian submarine, you know, back in the
[52:18] day. Uh and of course uh with MHD you
[52:22] can also do it you have to use a
[52:24] conductive fluid um either salt seawater
[52:27] that has salt in it or uh you could do
[52:29] it in the air but you have to create a
[52:31] plasma and you steer the plasma with
[52:33] it's called the lorren force it's it's
[52:35] basically have a perpendicular magnetic
[52:37] field large amount electricity and you
[52:40] can basically through the lorren force
[52:42] which is like ionic propulsion sort of
[52:44] um uh control it in the in the
[52:46] atmosphere as well and you can you know
[52:48] read papers on that and I e and and
[52:51] other stuff like that and so one of the
[52:53] byproducts of an air breathing MHD
[52:56] system is plasma around it. So depending
[53:00] on the size of the orb um it is
[53:02] conceivable that there's a physical
[53:05] craft behind it as well just by as an
[53:06] artifact of the propulsion system. Uh
[53:08] once again that's a a theory. I'm sure
[53:11] the program knows and that will be
[53:13] communicated at a later date but like
[53:14] you know that's Yeah.
[53:15] >> So this theory about sentient plasma
[53:19] >> Yeah.
[53:20] >> is it the idea that we have a very
[53:23] narrow-minded view of what life can be
[53:26] >> and that life as it evolved in other
[53:29] places in other parts of the universe
[53:32] >> went noncroporeal at some point like the
[53:34] the meat suit sucks. We're going to
[53:36] >> right
[53:37] >> be an energetic
[53:37] >> like this is an ultimate expression of
[53:40] both technology and at least enhanced
[53:44] evolution that eventually consciousness
[53:46] is isolated or consciousness may be
[53:49] ubiquitous and exists in everything
[53:52] anyway and that yeah
[53:54] >> yeah certainly and I'm not the the
[53:56] expert in I would say the the
[53:57] consciousness theory I like the Penrose
[54:00] Hamarov orc O theory which is the
[54:02] microtubules the room temperature So
[54:05] microtubules are in neurons of the brain
[54:07] and you have this like room temperature
[54:08] quantum system that can collapse the
[54:11] wave function without an observer and
[54:14] that's what Roger Penrose and Stuart
[54:16] Hamarov and I've talked to Hamarov crazy
[54:18] smart guy um he's an anesthesiologist by
[54:21] training and Penrose obviously is a very
[54:22] famous mathematician and uh physics
[54:25] legend and uh that's how they view
[54:28] consciousness. I'm not saying that's the
[54:29] exact model. I happen to prefer it
[54:32] because it's very trippy and very
[54:33] interesting and does explain spooky
[54:35] action and like um telepathy because oh
[54:39] well if it's just a quantum system then
[54:40] I'm like quantumly entangled. Oh that
[54:41] makes sense now like why remote viewing
[54:44] and other stuff works right.
[54:46] >> Yeah.
[54:46] >> Okay. So you have some sort of
[54:49] plasabased intelligence.
[54:52] >> Yeah.
[54:52] >> And then what else?
[54:54] So obviously there has been the physical
[54:57] craft of all different flavors like I've
[55:00] talked about it. You know the tic tacs
[55:01] are real. There's eggs. There's
[55:03] different types of discs. There's boot
[55:05] heels sunfish looking things. Um uh
[55:08] boomerangs crescent moon looking uh
[55:10] craft as well. And obviously
[55:13] all those have different
[55:15] um origins in terms of pilots and
[55:18] whatnot. There's a there's a little bit
[55:20] of overlap. It's almost like uh certain
[55:23] people like the Porsche 911 or Ford
[55:26] Mustang. They they kind of build the
[55:27] same shape and that's probably
[55:28] indicative of the technology or the
[55:30] propulsion system.
[55:31] >> I'm not an expert in exactly why that
[55:34] is. And yeah, we've recovered, you know,
[55:36] sever several different types and it's a
[55:38] it's once again it's a taxonomy where
[55:41] it's almost like like not all white
[55:44] people look the same, right? same idea
[55:46] where you might have like a species per
[55:48] se but then there's sort of like subsets
[55:51] right
[55:52] >> now
[55:54] is there a theory or is there
[55:56] information based on where these things
[55:58] are from and that there different ones
[56:00] are from different places
[56:02] >> there is but I never got access to that
[56:07] and even if the information was once
[56:10] again how would you like um confirm that
[56:12] as a skeptical former uh human intg ence
[56:15] officer, you have some sort of NHI
[56:18] communicating to you, oh, I'm from star
[56:20] system X, Y, and Z. Right?
[56:21] >> Cool. Is that denial and deception, you
[56:24] know, activities? Are you misdirecting?
[56:26] You're from somewhere else. So,
[56:28] >> uh, even if they said they told us, how
[56:31] would you verify that? I mean, there's
[56:32] certainly obviously ways
[56:34] >> and but some of it seems once again
[56:38] extraterrestrial is part of the pie
[56:40] here, right? There's a, you know,
[56:42] there's ultraterrestrial and other
[56:43] things. And I it does seem like a lot of
[56:46] it's been here for a while and also
[56:51] seems so similar to us that I have
[56:55] questions. And once again, this isn't
[56:56] rhetorical. I don't know the answer.
[56:57] It's like, well, is this bio-engineered?
[57:00] Is this uh a break from our tree? Is
[57:03] this um some sort of other technology?
[57:07] Uh like chameleon type technology, if
[57:10] you will. I don't I don't know the
[57:11] answer to that. So I I think that's
[57:14] >> what are the prevailing theories amongst
[57:15] the people that are working on this
[57:16] though.
[57:17] >> Yeah. So
[57:18] >> like do they have answers or do they
[57:19] just have theories?
[57:21] >> I am not certain of that because I do
[57:23] not have that level of knowledge and as
[57:26] the government rolls that out I'm happy
[57:29] to you know parse that with the American
[57:31] people in public and kind of explain my
[57:34] opinion on things as gaps and
[57:36] information for myself is filled in
[57:38] because I'm not omnipotent. I didn't
[57:40] have full access and I only know what I
[57:42] know. And that's why I've I've treated
[57:44] this with such reverence because even me
[57:47] going public, I'm like, [ __ ] I don't
[57:48] know what this is going to trigger
[57:50] besides my own personal safety, which
[57:51] clearly I was under duress and and I had
[57:54] to even resign my Air Force Commission.
[57:56] Didn't even fully retire and I'm trying
[57:58] to get that fixed. I, you know, filed
[57:59] something with the Air Force board a
[58:01] year ago so I can actually retire and
[58:04] have my benefits because I, you know, I
[58:06] miss my promotional lieutenant colonel
[58:07] and other stuff. But um I digress. But
[58:12] certainly
[58:14] there is such similarity that there was
[58:17] a concern and uh from a genomic
[58:20] perspective and there was work on that
[58:21] to compare genomes. Unfortunately, I
[58:23] don't know the answer to that and what
[58:24] they found out
[58:26] >> work to compare genomes from biological
[58:28] samples.
[58:29] >> Uh yeah, dead cadaavvers. Yeah.
[58:31] >> So that's real.
[58:33] >> Oh, 100%. Yeah.
[58:34] >> So there are
[58:35] >> Oh yeah, I know that for sure. you. How
[58:37] do you know that for sure?
[58:38] >> I got to see the audio visual on that
[58:40] side.
[58:41] >> You got to see what?
[58:42] >> Yeah. So, I got to be a little vague
[58:44] only because I want to protect the
[58:46] sources because it may indicate a
[58:48] specific activity or operation and these
[58:50] people were very patriotic and um they
[58:54] were just dead cadaavvers in you know on
[58:57] the ground because it was a retrieval
[58:59] activity. Yeah.
[59:00] >> You saw them physically or you saw video
[59:02] of them?
[59:02] >> Video.
[59:03] >> Video.
[59:03] >> Yeah. So you saw a dead cadaavver that
[59:07] was at a crash.
[59:09] >> Yes.
[59:10] >> So they filmed the crash and they filmed
[59:14] these cadaavvers.
[59:15] >> Yeah.
[59:15] >> How old is this footage?
[59:17] >> Uh I don't want to say. Okay.
[59:18] >> It's contemporary, but I
[59:19] >> It's contemporary.
[59:20] >> Yeah. But I don't want to reveal a
[59:21] particular operation because it narrows
[59:23] it down.
[59:24] >> But it's clear. It's not like you're
[59:26] looking 1950s black and white. It's
[59:29] clear. And do know, you know, when I get
[59:33] that kind of information, you know, I'm
[59:34] like, okay, tell me what it is, what
[59:36] what happened, and then I put it out for
[59:37] collection, so to speak, and then I
[59:39] confirm it independently because I was
[59:41] very uh allergic to any kind of
[59:43] deception, right? Like in the in the
[59:45] advent of AI, Sora AI, you can you can
[59:47] create a very realistic and so I was
[59:50] very anal retentive when I was given
[59:53] documents, audiovisisual, etc. And I sat
[59:56] on that stuff for like years until I
[59:58] felt comfortable with that not being
[60:00] some sort of limited hangout or
[60:02] deception activity. So yeah.
[60:05] >> What did it look like?
[60:06] >> Human looking.
[60:07] >> How human?
[60:08] >> Very
[60:09] >> like like looked like a human or looked
[60:12] similar to a human.
[60:13] >> Very
[60:15] very beautiful. And
[60:17] >> beautiful.
[60:17] >> It and I I said
[60:19] >> what color was the skin?
[60:20] >> Uh bluish white and super close. No, no,
[60:24] no, no, no. It like
[60:26] >> like someone who drowned
[60:27] >> like a pale sort of albino and
[60:30] >> and it's interesting and I said this in
[60:32] another interview that's not out yet,
[60:33] but and and God willing this is my last
[60:36] interview for a while hopefully in
[60:38] pre-disclosure environment, you know,
[60:40] and uh General McCaslin when he was
[60:43] talking to Dong and this is public
[60:45] record. Tom's talked about it on I think
[60:47] your show and other interviews where he
[60:49] always told Tom think of the Greek gods
[60:51] and and Oh, true. you look it up and and
[60:55] now I kind of understand what he meant.
[60:56] But General McCaslin, who disappeared
[60:58] within a week of Trump giving the the
[61:00] declassification order on UAP in
[61:03] February 2026, there's a lot of reasons
[61:05] why uh Mccasin's disappearance uh
[61:08] >> disappeared. Um he walked out of his
[61:11] residence in Albuquerque and vanished.
[61:13] >> Oh, that's right. That guy. Yeah.
[61:15] >> Yeah. And nobody knows. And I, you know,
[61:18] I have a relationship obviously with
[61:20] Justice and
[61:22] nobody knows what [ __ ] happened to
[61:23] the guy.
[61:25] >> And he like he left [ __ ] home so he
[61:27] couldn't be tracked. I think his phone
[61:28] was left but you know one of his
[61:30] firearms was missing. It's like very
[61:32] weird. So
[61:34] >> Right. He left without his phone.
[61:35] >> Yeah.
[61:35] >> Yeah. That was one of the weird parts
[61:37] about it.
[61:38] >> Yeah. And and once again he was going on
[61:41] a trip with like 18 of his friends. He
[61:42] went to REI the day before to get like a
[61:45] medical kit and other supplies and I
[61:48] mean obviously his wife's
[61:51] discussion about him the body cam
[61:52] footage is public and you know he had
[61:55] some mental health issues nothing major
[61:58] and and um some aging type issues but
[62:03] she didn't think you know he was going
[62:05] to like kill himself or whatever. So, I
[62:06] mean, you never know. And I've had
[62:07] friends unfortunately uh pass away
[62:10] through suicide in the military, but
[62:12] it's very bizarre and it's when within a
[62:15] week of Trump that coming out and um
[62:18] >> just say I know a lot about General
[62:19] McCass.
[62:20] >> Well, there's quite a few scientists
[62:21] that were connected to UF UAP disclosure
[62:25] or UAP potential back engineering
[62:27] projects or mysterious projects
[62:29] >> possibly. I think
[62:30] >> do you think there was more like
[62:32] >> to be fair was a little overblown and I
[62:34] don't think there was a ton of
[62:35] correlation like one was like a female
[62:37] that worked at Air Force Research Lab
[62:39] when Macccasin was a commander. I think
[62:41] that was one of Well, I mean there's a
[62:43] lot of people that work at Air Force
[62:44] Research Lab. That doesn't mean it's
[62:45] necessarily related to the topic. I the
[62:48] only one
[62:48] >> didn't she have did didn't that one
[62:50] particular lady if it's the same person
[62:52] didn't she have some sort of research
[62:54] that was on material science?
[62:56] >> That sounds correct. I'm not totally
[62:58] conversant on all the people that
[63:00] disappeared. The only one besides Maslin
[63:04] that was very concerning to me was my
[63:07] Air Force friend that um died
[63:10] mysteriously about two years ago. And
[63:14] it's an open investigation, so I won't
[63:16] get into all the gory detail of my
[63:17] assessments. Um it I mean it's binary.
[63:20] It's either a very tragic thing, either
[63:23] self harm or otherwise, or it was
[63:25] something else. and my friend uh his
[63:29] name's Matthew Sullivan calls sign quake
[63:31] in the air force him and I were on
[63:32] active duty together uh he was on the
[63:35] program and he was uh one of my sources
[63:39] and I and I once again I don't name
[63:41] people but like he unfortunately has
[63:43] passed so I want to make that clear
[63:45] >> this video do you think this will be a
[63:47] part of disclosure that we'll get to see
[63:50] this video of these dead bodies
[63:51] >> probably
[63:54] so there's a there's a lot audiovisisual
[63:56] stuff. The problem with the the with the
[63:58] the current climate, like you're going
[64:00] to have to wheel out the physical
[64:01] evidence, too, cuz people are the trust
[64:03] in government is so low right now. Like
[64:04] you you could show a video, but people
[64:06] are going to be like, "Oh, well that's
[64:08] just the US government [ __ ] with us,
[64:10] and you're going to have to
[64:12] >> curate a wheel out literally like, you
[64:14] know, put it in the Uvar Hazy Center,
[64:16] the Smithsonian, and then give the
[64:18] biological samples to Eric Weinstein,
[64:22] who I know he wants it." And
[64:24] >> why would you give it to him? Well, he
[64:26] says he has people that test it. Um,
[64:29] >> I have people that test it, too.
[64:30] >> Yeah, but give it to me.
[64:32] >> I'm just I'm just saying that
[64:33] >> it's all ridiculous and give it to who?
[64:35] There should be a way that human beings
[64:38] uh other than the government can look at
[64:40] this stuff.
[64:40] >> Well, there needs to be an independent
[64:42] process. Yeah.
[64:43] >> Right now, is this stuff
[64:46] >> So, this is contemporary this this dead
[64:49] body thing.
[64:50] >> And so, this is a fairly recent crash.
[64:54] >> Mhm. And did these things have all the
[64:58] characteristics of a human being? Did
[65:00] they have ears? And
[65:01] >> as far as I could recall, and it wasn't
[65:03] like all they have close up. Oh, yeah.
[65:06] >> They had hair. What color was the hair?
[65:08] >> It was like grayish and all that. It was
[65:11] The problem is I don't give the nature
[65:13] of the the video. It wasn't super close
[65:17] up. It was like,
[65:17] >> of course not
[65:18] >> during the operation. So, it's not like
[65:20] >> during the operation of retrieval.
[65:22] >> Yeah. Okay. And then they they had these
[65:25] things. So what is your understanding of
[65:28] what happens to these bodies?
[65:30] >> Oh, they're kept for analysis. And
[65:32] >> how do they keep them? They freeze them.
[65:34] >> Yeah. Yeah.
[65:35] >> Yeah. I don't know the exact process.
[65:36] I'm not a biologist, but they do put it
[65:38] in some sort of preservation status. So
[65:42] >> Huh.
[65:43] >> Yeah.
[65:43] >> So was that the most compelling thing
[65:45] you saw?
[65:47] Yes, because you know it couples with
[65:50] you know both the the craft and the
[65:52] alleged you know occupants and you there
[65:54] was some other stuff in that in that
[65:56] area that I got to be careful talking
[65:58] about because it's so specific that
[66:00] it'll easily ID the you know the patriot
[66:02] that helped me on that.
[66:04] >> Um and once again I want the public to
[66:06] see all this stuff and I you don't take
[66:09] my word for it. Plead with the president
[66:11] to make sure this comes out. He's really
[66:13] courageous to do so and I just I hope
[66:15] this all comes out.
[66:15] >> When you say contemporary, you mean last
[66:17] 20 years, more recent?
[66:19] >> I don't even want to characterize it,
[66:20] but it's it's contemporary.
[66:22] >> And when you say Greek gods, like do
[66:24] these these creatures actually look like
[66:28] something special, like not just like a
[66:30] regular person. You said beautiful.
[66:32] >> Yeah. Just very oddly it and it's been a
[66:35] while and but I'm just trying to
[66:36] visualize in my mind. It was just very
[66:38] very beautiful. It was just
[66:40] >> Were they wearing an outfit?
[66:42] >> Uh, it looked like it like some kind of
[66:44] form fitting thing, but I didn't get a
[66:45] good look at it.
[66:46] >> Spandex?
[66:47] >> I don't know. I didn't get a good look
[66:48] at it, honestly.
[66:49] >> You didn't?
[66:50] >> No. I mean, it was like a a pan. So,
[66:52] >> okay. So, they didn't even focus on the
[66:54] bodies. They just like, "Oh, there's a
[66:55] body of there." You know, people had a
[66:58] job to do,
[66:59] >> right? Did you worry that that that's a
[67:01] scop that you're being shown something
[67:02] that's horseshit? Well, like I said, I
[67:04] was very careful with that and confirmed
[67:06] it through other sources and methods to
[67:08] make sure it wasn't some sort of hangout
[67:11] from some government element trying to
[67:12] sway me one way or the other. And
[67:15] >> so, you independently verified that
[67:16] there was an event.
[67:18] >> Yeah, I did.
[67:19] >> Okay. And then there's footage of this
[67:21] event. And in this footage of this
[67:22] event, how many bodies were there?
[67:24] >> I think three or four is what I saw. I
[67:26] don't know what the total was.
[67:26] >> Did they have gender?
[67:28] >> Um, looked amorphous to me, but once
[67:31] again, it was a pan. Really? It wasn't.
[67:32] Yeah. Okay.
[67:33] >> Yeah.
[67:33] >> Long hair, short hair,
[67:35] >> long.
[67:36] >> All of them.
[67:38] >> Yeah.
[67:38] >> Hm.
[67:38] >> That I could recall. Yeah.
[67:40] >> The Greek gods thing is very weird.
[67:42] >> It's weird. And
[67:43] >> it's a weird comparison. Like you stop
[67:44] and think about that. Yeah. Well, why
[67:46] were the Greek gods
[67:47] >> so beautiful?
[67:48] >> It's funny you say that cuz like I think
[67:50] about like breakaway human. I mean, once
[67:52] again, I'm just I'm just
[67:54] >> or maybe even an original civilization
[67:56] that existed before.
[67:58] >> Yeah. There's more people are leaning in
[68:01] that direction when they start looking
[68:03] at some of the stuff that's underneath
[68:04] the pyramids and some of the weird
[68:06] structures that they're finding all over
[68:07] the earth. Like how how are these
[68:09] things? We had a whole podcast yesterday
[68:11] about it. It's like how are these things
[68:13] made? Who made these things? Like what?
[68:15] >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, obviously I I follow
[68:17] Graham Hancock and Randle Carlson just,
[68:19] you know, casually and
[68:21] >> and I do have um not fears, but uh you
[68:25] know, I have questions about some sort
[68:27] of breakaway human civilization and that
[68:29] explains some of this or it's
[68:31] bio-engineered because like for them to
[68:33] develop naturally say off planet say
[68:36] it's extraterrestrial that it looks
[68:38] almost dead ringer like us like that
[68:41] doesn't make any sense to me.
[68:42] >> Well, does it make sense? If we're
[68:43] engineered, then it makes sense. So,
[68:46] >> that is that is certainly a possibility.
[68:48] You know, I have questions about that,
[68:49] too.
[68:50] >> This is a this is what Bob Lazar
[68:53] believes. I had a long conversation with
[68:54] him about that. He thinks that human
[68:57] beings are a product of genetic some
[68:59] sort of manipulation.
[69:01] >> And I think hypothetically, if that
[69:05] ended up being verified in some way,
[69:06] shape, or form, you know, how how does
[69:09] that change humanity? What does it mean
[69:10] to be human? And I I think there's a lot
[69:11] of deep human sovereignty and other
[69:13] questions uh on that if that ends up
[69:16] being the case.
[69:16] >> Well, it gets weird because we're
[69:18] willing to believe that an omnipotent
[69:20] god created us out of nothing. That's
[69:24] cool. But the idea that we were visited
[69:26] by what's essentially almost godlike in
[69:30] their powers and abilities, some
[69:31] creature from somewhere else or some
[69:33] being, some super hyper intelligent
[69:36] being from somewhere else
[69:37] >> and they manipulated us. That bothers
[69:39] us. I know. And I weird. My biggest
[69:41] regret was not getting access to like
[69:43] the biological assessment reports and
[69:45] stuff like that. I was getting enough
[69:47] spears thrown my way and I was, you
[69:48] know, in literal danger. So, I
[69:50] unfortunately wasn't able to kind of,
[69:52] you know, um, get access to that stuff.
[69:55] >> Have you talked to anybody who did get
[69:56] access to it?
[69:58] >> Um,
[70:00] not on that side of the program in terms
[70:02] of like the scientists analyzing the
[70:04] bodies. No. I just I know people that
[70:07] are good friends of mine that were on
[70:09] retrievalss and saw them as well in
[70:11] person. And once again, I'm like
[70:13] comparing like did did you it look like
[70:14] this? It look like this? Did this
[70:15] happen? Was it this type of craft?
[70:17] >> Do they vary in terms of what they saw?
[70:19] >> Yes. And uh some of my colleagues saw
[70:23] them alive as well.
[70:25] >> Yeah.
[70:26] >> What did they see alive? Like the Greek
[70:27] god looking ones?
[70:28] >> Uh no. Uh it's
[70:31] the pop culture. I can't believe I want
[70:34] to talk about this. Uh the pop culture
[70:36] >> uh reptilian looking
[70:37] >> reptilian
[70:39] >> the the grays yes as well those are real
[70:42] once again the aerial school phenomenon
[70:44] in 1994 very well documented mass
[70:46] sighting what does it
[70:48] >> is that Zimbabwe
[70:49] >> yeah near a uranium mine
[70:52] >> and they saw small gray beings coming
[70:54] out of a lenticular disc craft once
[70:56] again this is why it's almost like not
[70:59] that shocking it's like yeah they look
[71:00] like that no [ __ ]
[71:02] >> well that story has been going on for a
[71:05] long time and that iconic. The problem
[71:07] with like iconic imagery is that now you
[71:10] have it in your head what to expect and
[71:13] like that was like from the movie
[71:15] Contact. Remember the movie Contact?
[71:16] Like it showed itself.
[71:17] >> Great movie. Great movie. I know my boy
[71:20] Amomar, I got him hooked on that movie.
[71:22] He watches it like every quarter.
[71:23] >> It's a phenomenal movie.
[71:25] >> But there's a scene in the movie where
[71:27] the alien shows itself as Jodie Foster's
[71:31] dad. I know because it's something that
[71:33] she can handle
[71:34] >> and that's what it's funny you say that
[71:36] that's what if they're bio-engineered
[71:38] then that makes sense because of that
[71:39] ease of contact ease of communication
[71:42] also less onlogically shocking it's
[71:44] familiar
[71:44] >> right
[71:45] >> and and I think as this rolls out I
[71:49] think the American people need to think
[71:50] about like okay well if you know I'm
[71:52] presented with this reality how would I
[71:54] react you know I I just think of them
[71:56] personally as like it's like my West
[71:57] Virginia cousins you know it's like
[71:59] different part of the family you But but
[72:01] I'm cool with them. And uh
[72:03] >> that's a [ __ ]
[72:04] >> I'll I'll chill with them, you know,
[72:07] whatever. And hey, I'm a nerd. Like do
[72:09] you know how bad I want to just like
[72:11] hang out with them?
[72:12] >> Oh yeah, me too.
[72:13] >> Like not that I have like uh personal
[72:16] bias for President Trump to do this, but
[72:18] like just like any American, I like I
[72:20] want to know more.
[72:21] >> Of course,
[72:21] >> I want to meet them. I want to
[72:22] communicate. Well, I think it's just
[72:25] it's wrong for some people to have
[72:27] access to this information because this
[72:30] I think this is different than any other
[72:31] kind of secret information.
[72:33] >> I think it's weight and its significance
[72:36] and impact on the human race in general.
[72:40] I I mean I demand I I want we should
[72:44] know you shouldn't there shouldn't be a
[72:47] group of unelected bureaucrats and
[72:50] defense contractors that have access to
[72:52] this stuff and the general public
[72:54] doesn't. So they have a completely
[72:56] different map of the world than we do.
[72:58] >> I know and I just think about the
[73:01] unfortunate lies and how society has
[73:03] progressed over the last several decades
[73:05] and where we could have been if this was
[73:06] handled back in the ' 50s60s and 70s.
[73:08] Right. And once again, it shouldn't even
[73:10] be me doing this. Like, I saw a little
[73:12] bit of crazy [ __ ] I learned some stuff.
[73:14] I met with some of the most senior
[73:16] people in government to confirm all
[73:17] this, you know, at the highest highest
[73:19] highest level. And um it's me like I'm
[73:24] just a dude like I'm I was a, you know,
[73:26] major in the Air Force and, you know,
[73:28] mid-level senior civilian in the IC. But
[73:32] unfortunately,
[73:33] I got stuck with this and it wouldn't
[73:35] have happened unless this small crew,
[73:38] you know, honestly pushed me over the
[73:39] edge and, you know, I I was in
[73:42] unbelievable duress and I ended up
[73:43] having to go public. So
[73:44] >> So tell me more about these reptilians
[73:46] that your friend encountered. They were
[73:48] alive.
[73:49] >> Yeah.
[73:49] >> So they were alive post crash.
[73:52] >> Yes.
[73:53] >> Why do these things keep [ __ ]
[73:54] crashing?
[73:55] >> So some of it is um NHI versus NHI.
[74:01] wides.
[74:02] >> Yeah,
[74:02] >> they war in the skies. Isn't that in the
[74:05] >> You think it's like would they get
[74:06] along? They're so advanced. But uh the
[74:10] we have records of them [ __ ] around
[74:12] with each other.
[74:12] >> Is that in the Mahabarata or the
[74:14] Bavagita? There's there's like talk
[74:16] about sky wars in ancient Hindu text.
[74:20] >> Vid Oh yeah, in the Vidic text, the blue
[74:21] people. And I know that's why you asked
[74:24] blue. I don't recall them being that
[74:26] blue, but you know, right?
[74:28] >> I got a short little look unlike
[74:29] >> Yeah, when they're alive, they're
[74:30] darker.
[74:32] >> Well, that is true. There's like a
[74:35] post-mortem change in their like people.
[74:38] That's what happens with people.
[74:39] >> That that is true cuz you know, as they
[74:42] were struggling and then died, obviously
[74:43] their affect changed and [ __ ] So,
[74:46] >> this friend that encountered first of
[74:49] all the we'll go to the the Greek god
[74:52] people first. Yeah. What did their craft
[74:53] look like?
[74:55] >> Uh, boomerang, crescent moon, usually.
[74:59] Not all the time. It's kind of like once
[75:00] I go back, some people like to drive the
[75:02] Porsche 911. Uh, that tends to be not
[75:06] all the time, but uh that's what they
[75:10] like to roll up in.
[75:10] >> They they they talk about them as the
[75:12] tall whites.
[75:13] >> Yeah.
[75:14] >> You hear that? Were they tall? Were they
[75:16] large?
[75:16] >> They look tall to me. I didn't have
[75:18] >> hard to tell because you don't
[75:19] >> I didn't have a ground reference really.
[75:21] I would say at least
[75:24] human size. They could be
[75:26] >> very similar to human size.
[75:27] >> Yeah, they could be my big ass is 66,
[75:29] but like the
[75:30] >> they looked big um
[75:32] >> similar to humans,
[75:33] >> I think. So, and there might be taller
[75:36] once again. I'm sure there's other stuff
[75:38] I don't know about. I'm sure there's
[75:40] other variants of them too that look
[75:42] more towards like the classic um
[75:44] >> what is it in eufology? like Nordic or,
[75:46] you know, tall whites
[75:49] >> and that are probably even taller. If
[75:51] some of those uh experiences are true,
[75:54] which once again, as long as that source
[75:57] is credible, that might be a thing. So,
[75:59] I think we need to be prepared to kind
[76:01] of
[76:02] >> that being a thing. I don't know.
[76:03] >> Yeah, that makes sense.
[76:05] >> Now, the reptilian craft, what did that
[76:07] thing look like?
[76:09] >> Uh, that one is tic tac looking.
[76:12] >> Uhoh.
[76:13] >> Yeah.
[76:14] >> I was hoping they were the cool ones.
[76:15] Yeah. The reptilian ones are the ones
[76:17] that everyone's terrified of.
[76:18] >> Yeah. And and once again, like we're
[76:20] we're doing like and of course it's not
[76:22] always a tic tac. Once again, kind of
[76:24] like what I said, but like that tends to
[76:25] be them.
[76:26] >> Um from what I understand, obviously,
[76:28] hopefully I'm not wrong, but I'm, you
[76:30] know, pretty good sourcing on that.
[76:33] >> When you see like um malevolent
[76:35] behavior, right, it's like, well, that's
[76:36] a humanistic lens. You're seeing like a
[76:39] animal lash out in captiv captivity kind
[76:41] of thing. Or they're in duress. they're
[76:44] having an emotional experience, etc. And
[76:46] it's like, you know, are they actually
[76:48] scary or is it just because of the
[76:50] situations we've been in with them? And
[76:51] so what kind of bias and and all that?
[76:53] So,
[76:53] >> of course.
[76:54] >> Yeah.
[76:54] >> And so these reptilians, what did they
[76:57] look like?
[76:57] >> Now, I've never seen them in person.
[76:59] Your friend described as
[77:01] >> it's like very almost like um 7 foot
[77:04] tall plus uh sort of gorilla looking
[77:08] skin.
[77:08] >> Gorilla looking, scaly skin though,
[77:11] reptile gorillas. But there's multiple
[77:13] types. There's ones that are are more
[77:17] humanoid looking. So
[77:19] >> there's multiple types of reptilians.
[77:20] >> Yeah. And I'm not an expert on that one.
[77:22] That's once again I never saw it in
[77:24] person to get the exact uh you know.
[77:27] >> See if there's a artist rendition.
[77:30] >> Yeah. Yeah.
[77:31] >> Chris you are.
[77:32] >> Yeah. And once again it it sounds it
[77:35] sounds so skitso like even for me
[77:37] >> gorilla with scales.
[77:38] >> Ex deep state intel officer. I'm like, I
[77:40] cannot [ __ ] believe I'm talking about
[77:42] this [ __ ] on Joe Rogan.
[77:43] >> Scare scaly gorilla.
[77:45] >> I know. And I mean, it sounds skitso.
[77:47] And it's like coming from somebody like
[77:49] me, you know, who, you know, is a
[77:51] credible person and has been in
[77:52] government. It's like,
[77:54] >> I'm going to be that guy. I'm going to
[77:55] be that guy. And then like down the road
[77:57] people will review Joe Rogan and he's
[77:59] like that [ __ ] We thought he
[78:00] was crazy, but
[78:02] >> what do you know? You know, it's true.
[78:03] Well, of course, if there are things
[78:05] from somewhere else, you're going to
[78:07] sound crazy describing any of
[78:08] >> because it's it's so outside my
[78:10] experience because I never had some kind
[78:12] of woo thing growing up or some sort of
[78:15] interaction with the phenomenon. So, it
[78:17] it it it feels so outside my personal
[78:20] comfort level and experience because um
[78:22] I'm relying on the personal experience
[78:24] of others, you know, audio visual stuff
[78:26] and it still feels like I'm watching a
[78:28] movie. Like, it's like is that is it
[78:30] real? I mean, I know it is, but like
[78:31] it's I have a cognitive dissonance a
[78:33] little bit, you know? So,
[78:35] >> and how were you able to watch this
[78:36] video? Do they have to put you into a
[78:38] secret room?
[78:39] >> Yeah, I won't get into the exact way it
[78:41] went down, but uh uh we'll just say it
[78:44] was uh kind of sketchy, but it to keep
[78:48] everybody safe. So,
[78:49] >> and so there apparently is NHI versus
[78:53] NHI warfare.
[78:55] >> We've we've documented that.
[78:57] >> Documented it
[78:57] >> in collection.
[78:59] what we perceive as warfare. So, unless
[79:02] it's something conflict,
[79:03] >> yeah, it looks like conflict. It smells
[79:05] like conflict. Is it some other kind of
[79:06] weird [ __ ] I don't know. And there's
[79:08] maybe an assessment on that. But,
[79:10] >> and um when this reptilian craft
[79:14] crashed, the assumption was that it was
[79:16] some sort of conflict because I would
[79:17] imagine,
[79:18] >> correct,
[79:18] >> that they're the ones you'd have to
[79:19] worry about
[79:20] >> cuz there was dead uh dead grays there,
[79:23] too.
[79:24] >> Oh, yeah. So,
[79:25] >> so the grays and the reptilians were
[79:26] duking it out.
[79:27] >> Yeah. I guess I guess you know you know
[79:31] I know the people who were there and
[79:32] >> this sounds [ __ ] insane Dave. It
[79:34] sounds [ __ ] crazy. And and once
[79:36] again, I don't want to get in too many
[79:38] specifics cuz this is a very unique
[79:41] >> There's a couple unique retrievals out
[79:42] there that to protect the innocents and
[79:45] people that have risked their [ __ ]
[79:46] lives cuz a lot of the people that
[79:49] >> uh came to me with that kind of
[79:50] information. I mean, they were
[79:51] physically threatened like me and and
[79:53] all that and and so like me going public
[79:56] was taking it for the team because I was
[79:57] able to create this umbrella of uh
[79:59] tacet, you know, protection in case
[80:01] somebody got [ __ ] with. And
[80:02] unfortunately, you know, my my friend
[80:04] Matt, who knows what happened to him,
[80:06] but um you know, tragically he died, you
[80:09] know, mysteriously. So
[80:10] >> now these reptilians, what was their
[80:13] craft like?
[80:15] >> Oh, like I said, the tic tac tic tac
[80:16] stuff.
[80:17] >> And was their craft crashed into the
[80:19] ground, like broken up?
[80:21] >> Yeah.
[80:21] >> Okay.
[80:22] >> It was like wedged into
[80:23] >> like had it been hit with something?
[80:25] >> Um I don't remember exactly what
[80:28] happened in that regard, but it did
[80:30] crash. So, and I don't want to misspeak
[80:32] on what exactly happened. So,
[80:35] >> and how many times has this happened if
[80:38] you had a guess?
[80:38] >> I don't know the total number of like uh
[80:41] adversarial conflict crashes, but I mean
[80:44] it seems to be at least a dozen or two.
[80:47] I don't know.
[80:48] >> So, at least a dozen or two adversarial
[80:51] crashes. And then there's the high
[80:54] alitude nuclear tests,
[80:56] >> right? You're aware of those, right?
[80:58] >> Mhm.
[80:59] >> Okay. So, there's been a lot of
[81:01] speculation that during those high
[81:03] alitude nuclear tests that crafts that
[81:07] didn't know it was coming got rocked.
[81:10] Do you know anything about that?
[81:12] >> That's an area that I'll let the
[81:14] government handle. That's because it
[81:15] gets into vulnerabilities and and and
[81:18] what the US has figured out. So, that
[81:20] just gets a sensitive area, but that's
[81:23] something I'm sure that'll come out in
[81:24] this process because
[81:25] >> So, you can't talk about that. Is that
[81:27] what you're saying? because it gets into
[81:29] um US capabilities and what we figured
[81:31] out in terms of uh
[81:32] >> Well, this is all like from the 50s,
[81:34] right?
[81:34] >> Yeah. But we still got nukes and we
[81:36] still got those kind of weapons, you
[81:38] know,
[81:39] >> away. So,
[81:39] >> you're aware of those um
[81:42] it was uh what what was it, Jamie? Was
[81:45] it um a telescope that they were t they
[81:48] they were taking photographs of the
[81:50] stars and they were doing it with uh do
[81:54] you know what I'm talking about? all the
[81:55] little dots popped up thing that Yeah,
[81:57] that's like two or three weeks ago,
[81:58] >> right? We talked about that a couple
[81:59] weeks ago. It was an observatory and the
[82:02] observatory has these old plates of
[82:05] images that they took of the sky.
[82:07] >> Oh, is this Beatatric's work, the Vasco?
[82:11] >> Yes.
[82:11] >> Um yeah, I read it. Very interesting.
[82:13] And um
[82:14] >> it's hard to make an exact conclusion if
[82:17] if it's UAP, but it's really great
[82:20] original scholarship and I applaud her
[82:22] for for doing that. But there appeared
[82:24] to be moving uh reflective things that
[82:29] were outside of our atmosphere that they
[82:31] were taking images of. They were not
[82:33] static. They were not
[82:33] >> starutnik too. That was the important
[82:35] thing.
[82:36] >> Pribut very important because there was
[82:37] no satellites at the time. This was
[82:40] images that they took of the sky that
[82:41] showed things that were reflective that
[82:44] seemed to be metallic allegedly. And if
[82:46] I remember her paper correctly with her
[82:48] co-authors, it also there were cluster
[82:51] concentrations over sensitive nuclear
[82:53] facilities and nuclear testing um uh uh
[82:58] chronological temporal correlation as
[83:00] well.
[83:01] >> So data shows unidentified lights in
[83:03] archival astronomy images were 68% more
[83:06] likely to be imaged 24 hours after a
[83:09] nuclear weapons test.
[83:10] >> Like I was saying, yeah,
[83:11] >> right. So this is chronologically like
[83:14] we have these nuclear weapons tests
[83:16] including these high altitude
[83:17] detonations like oper operation starfish
[83:19] prime.
[83:20] >> Yeah.
[83:20] >> We detonate these things and then all of
[83:23] a sudden these craft start showing up
[83:25] like hey what are these [ __ ] crazy
[83:28] monkeys up to?
[83:29] >> It does seem like there was a heightened
[83:30] amount of activity once we started
[83:32] testing nuclear weapons. Oh yeah.
[83:34] >> Obviously this phenomenon is old. It's
[83:35] interacted with man and antiquity. You
[83:37] know Jacques Valet's scholarship on that
[83:39] passport meonia that. Yeah,
[83:41] >> that's why the names of our rooms at the
[83:44] comedy club are Fat Man and Little Boy.
[83:45] >> Oh, nice. Yeah, because that's what
[83:47] ushered because it's the comedy mother
[83:49] ship. It's a UFOs based. The
[83:50] >> Yeah, if you go to the Air Force Museum,
[83:52] um they have the the Anola Gay there, I
[83:54] think. Is that right?
[83:56] >> It's one of the planes.
[83:57] >> Oh, wow.
[83:58] >> My alma mater is going to crucify me for
[83:59] getting that Air Force history wrong at
[84:01] the Air Force Museum in Dayton, Ohio.
[84:03] But
[84:03] >> Wow.
[84:03] >> It's pretty cool. They have a mockup of
[84:05] the the little boy and fat man bombs, so
[84:08] you can see how big they were. You're
[84:09] like, "Holy [ __ ] that was big."
[84:10] >> One of the things that Lazar said is
[84:13] that one of the objects they were
[84:15] working with was very old. And he said
[84:17] that they had somehow that it it was
[84:20] told to him that it was retrieved from
[84:22] an archaeological dig.
[84:24] >> I don't know about his specific story
[84:26] and his exposure, but uh the
[84:29] archaeological thing that that is a
[84:30] thing. Yeah.
[84:31] >> Are you aware of the labyrinth at Hawara
[84:34] in Egypt?
[84:37] >> No. What is that? Okay. So,
[84:39] >> is that the one where there's a metallic
[84:40] object that they they but but the what's
[84:43] his face won't let people go in it from
[84:44] the Egyptian?
[84:45] >> Well, it's it's complicated. It's a
[84:47] little more complicated than won't let
[84:48] them, but there's definitely resistance
[84:50] to it.
[84:51] >> So, these labyrinths, this this
[84:53] incredible compound that's underground
[84:56] was documented by Heroditus and he said
[84:58] it was greater than Giza. He said it was
[85:01] much more spectacular construction. Wow.
[85:03] So now they know from ground penetrating
[85:05] radar that these these cavities in the
[85:08] ground, these symmetrical rooms exist.
[85:11] They know where they are and they know
[85:13] why they're flooded. So they're flooded
[85:15] because during the 1960s they built a
[85:18] dam to divert water for agriculture. And
[85:21] when they did, they changed the water
[85:22] table and it flooded this labyrinth
[85:24] area. And when they used this ground pen
[85:27] penetrating radar and um I think it's
[85:30] radio tomography and a bunch of other
[85:32] different ways of
[85:33] >> one of the things they found was a 40 m
[85:36] long metallic object that's in some sort
[85:40] of is it
[85:42] >> is it in an atrium like it's in some
[85:45] sort of a large room.
[85:47] >> I've heard of I've seen a video about
[85:49] this. You're you're recalling some stuff
[85:51] I've seen just casually online. Like
[85:53] just imagine if that's what that is.
[85:56] >> It's like it's like the movie Stargate
[85:58] with with Kurt Russell.
[86:00] >> If these people had been worshiping this
[86:02] craft and so much so that they built
[86:05] this incredible temple and put it in the
[86:07] center of their temple. It's a 40 m long
[86:10] metallic object and the metal apparently
[86:14] is of unknown origin. Like they don't
[86:16] know what the metal is. It's not
[86:18] registering as copper. It's not
[86:20] registering as steel or or or iron
[86:22] rather. They don't know what it is.
[86:24] >> Interesting. Interesting.
[86:26] >> Yeah. It's [ __ ] weird.
[86:28] >> Yeah. I mean, I'm I won't be surprised
[86:30] if some ancient civilizations were
[86:32] essentially cargo cults, you know, for
[86:34] these visitors. I mean, that is most
[86:37] likely true in many cases, not all. And
[86:40] of course, that gets into theological
[86:42] areas that are touchy, but I I do think
[86:45] that that's probably the case.
[86:46] >> The central object is hard to classify.
[86:48] It appears metallic, not stone or wood.
[86:50] I named it Dippy after the giant dip
[86:52] diplotica skeleton in the hint hinty
[86:56] hall of London's natural history museum.
[86:58] It could be anything. Its shape
[87:00] resembles those tic-tac hard mints. It
[87:03] might also be an upright disc or even a
[87:05] colossal shen ring. The ancient Egyptian
[87:08] symbol representing the eternal cycle of
[87:10] creation. The big job object alone big
[87:14] object alone rather raises profound
[87:16] questions. How did it get there? Why is
[87:18] it there?
[87:21] So, show him some of the uh artistic
[87:24] recreations of what it looked like
[87:27] underneath the ground. So, this is all,
[87:30] you know, like I said, Herodotus wrote
[87:32] about this thousands of years ago, but
[87:33] now it's documented that these chambers
[87:36] and these pathways actually exist.
[87:38] >> And there had been people that had
[87:40] studied at least the upper surface
[87:41] levels of it as recently as like the
[87:43] 1800s.
[87:44] >> Interesting.
[87:45] >> Yeah.
[87:46] But that, you know, through all like a
[87:49] lot of Egypt, there's a water under
[87:52] Giza, there's water under the pyramids,
[87:54] there's water under,
[87:55] >> you know, a lot of that stuff is
[87:56] flooded. And so this is what it looked
[87:59] like. This is all underground.
[88:03] It's [ __ ] crazy because if this along
[88:07] with uh Filippo Beyond's work where it
[88:09] shows using that same uh satellite radio
[88:13] tomography that there's some sort of
[88:16] structure underneath the pyramids that
[88:18] goes over a kilometer into the ground.
[88:21] >> Is there easy access or is it just like
[88:23] a government denial? the antiquities
[88:25] bureau whatever they call it in blocking
[88:27] it or
[88:27] >> I think there's been some progress in
[88:30] terms of allowing exploration and I
[88:34] don't know the extent of it but I know
[88:36] that a lot of people are very hopeful
[88:38] that that progress is is going to be
[88:40] achieved like they're opening up this
[88:42] research and look this would be a giant
[88:45] boom to their tourism industry oh yeah I
[88:47] mean that's what they want I mean Egypt
[88:50] probably survives I don't know what
[88:52] percentage of their economy in Giza is
[88:53] tourism But it has to be massive.
[88:55] >> Yeah. And you always hear interesting
[88:56] stories. You know, I have an eclectic
[88:59] uh group of colleagues and you hear
[89:01] interesting stories. Is it the Queen's
[89:03] Chamber? The the granite
[89:05] >> pill box and people have had interesting
[89:07] experiences in there too. And and uh
[89:10] >> well the king's chamber that
[89:11] sarcophagus.
[89:12] >> Yeah. It's that like granite box, you
[89:14] know, talking perfectly cut granite box
[89:17] that also I think it mirrors the exact
[89:19] dimensions of the Ark of the Covenant.
[89:22] Interesting. That's That's crazy. But I
[89:26] know people who've laid in it because
[89:28] they have to kind of pay the guard. It's
[89:29] like off hours and they just have like a
[89:32] weird transcendental experience. I mean,
[89:34] it's kind of woo.
[89:35] >> Once again, I've never experienced
[89:36] something like that.
[89:37] >> Let me lie down there.
[89:38] >> That's a thing. That's a thing. I I'll
[89:40] let you know who to talk to offline. Uh
[89:42] >> how much do you think it cost to lay in
[89:44] the box?
[89:45] >> Maybe. I don't know. Couple bucks.
[89:46] >> Egypt. 20 grand maybe. I don't
[89:48] >> 20 grand. Whoa. Yeah. 20 grand. You
[89:50] could like sleep there. Yeah.
[89:53] >> Yeah. It's um it's very strange because
[89:55] the structures themselves are incredibly
[89:57] strange. You know, the structures
[89:58] themselves are so immense and so complex
[90:00] and there the methods of construction
[90:02] are completely unknown and just the
[90:04] symmetry and the the the the precision
[90:08] of the engineering is beyond
[90:10] comprehension for people that lived at
[90:13] the very mo the very the most recent it
[90:16] could be is 4,500 years ago. And a lot
[90:19] of these people think it's far older
[90:20] than that. And and we're finding that
[90:22] I've been watching some of Graham
[90:24] Hancock's stuff. You just look at these
[90:25] like
[90:26] >> megalithic architecture that's older
[90:27] than you think. The stuff in Turkey and
[90:30] in the United States as well in Ohio and
[90:32] and um
[90:34] >> Mississippi.
[90:34] >> Yeah.
[90:35] >> And it's like and they're finding all
[90:36] these pyramid structures using synthetic
[90:38] aperture radar. And I so I am casually
[90:40] following it and it it does seem like we
[90:42] don't really even know our own history.
[90:44] And I think with all this coming out,
[90:46] there's going to be a huge rew re uh
[90:49] writing of a lot of our ancient and
[90:51] modern history. So,
[90:52] >> well, that's where it gets really weird.
[90:53] Um, you know, uh, Rep. Paulina Luna was
[90:57] on the podcast and
[90:58] >> Oh, yeah.
[90:58] >> She was talking to me about the book of
[91:00] Enoch.
[91:02] >> I hadn't read it. She's like, "You have
[91:03] to read it." And I've read it twice now.
[91:05] And I'm like, "What in the [ __ ] are they
[91:07] talking about?"
[91:08] >> Like the book of Enoch, which was also
[91:10] found with the Dead Sea Scrolls in
[91:12] >> Kuman. And it it refers to the watchers
[91:15] who came down and and mated with
[91:17] daughters and created this race of
[91:19] giants. And it's like what? Yeah. And
[91:22] you think is like now when you when all
[91:24] this comes out was that actually literal
[91:25] and you and of course the Bible council
[91:28] na was more of a political document
[91:30] before secular government and you know
[91:32] they got together like what are all the
[91:33] different books that we can agree upon
[91:34] that are good that are
[91:36] >> yeah what gets into the canon. And
[91:37] that's the thing about the book of Enoch
[91:39] is that it was it was not put in there
[91:41] because it didn't jive with the Torah.
[91:43] >> Correct. Yeah.
[91:44] >> Yes. Which is like, okay, you [ __ ]
[91:47] Imagine if that was in the Bible. Like
[91:49] if you go to church and you read about
[91:50] the Watchers.
[91:52] >> Well, there's actually a lot of
[91:53] interesting stuff in the Bible. Like
[91:55] obviously, and that's another thing like
[91:56] of course with um you know, I'm Catholic
[91:58] uh by growing up CCD confirmation did
[92:01] the whole thing as a kid. And you see a
[92:03] lot of uh outspoken exorcists and other
[92:06] people right now saying, "Well, all this
[92:08] uh alien stuff is just diabolic
[92:11] deception and demons and you know, all
[92:13] that kind of stuff." And and I and I
[92:15] respect that opinion and I do think like
[92:17] what you perceive as a demon is a
[92:19] certain class of non-human or anomalous
[92:22] intelligence. And and that is certainly
[92:24] a thing, but the the whole ecosystem is
[92:26] not demonic. And but the Bible's
[92:30] interesting because once again it
[92:32] doesn't discuss about other life
[92:34] elsewhere like it doesn't talk about uh
[92:37] bacteria and viruses that those were
[92:39] unseen. We cohabitated with bacteria and
[92:42] viruses until the invention of the
[92:43] microscope whatever that was 1800s or or
[92:46] whatnot. But if you go into uh Leviticus
[92:48] and Deuteronomy, you will notice these
[92:51] like cleansing ritualistic stuff also
[92:54] like, hey, you can't have your toilet
[92:56] and your living area and all that. And
[92:58] if you look in those books of the Bible,
[93:00] wait, that's like modern sanitization
[93:02] guidance. So, it's funny that like the
[93:05] Bible has encoded within it um kind of
[93:08] like best practices before man would
[93:10] even understand what uh you know,
[93:12] viruses and bacteria are. And I just
[93:14] find that that's very interesting based
[93:16] on when it was written. And it does show
[93:18] that there was some sort of higher
[93:19] intelligence kind of influencing the
[93:21] authorship. I just Yeah.
[93:22] >> Either that or in the civilization that
[93:26] was writing the Bible was a recreation
[93:28] of civilization that had been destroyed
[93:30] in a cataclysm.
[93:31] >> Yeah. I mean
[93:31] >> that I think that especially when you
[93:34] look at the pyramids, you look at some
[93:36] of these other ancient structures like
[93:37] Lebanon, Ballback, they they they don't
[93:40] make sense. And it seems to me that
[93:42] there was probably something super
[93:43] sophisticated a long time ago and it got
[93:45] wiped out. And then what we get from
[93:48] these ancient texts is probably oral
[93:52] tradition passed on through hundreds if
[93:54] not thousands of years and then people
[93:56] writing things down and people
[93:58] remembering these stories. I think one
[94:01] of the weirdest uh books of the Bible is
[94:03] the book of Ezekiel.
[94:04] >> Yeah.
[94:05] >> Because the book of Ezekiel is one all
[94:06] the UFO people turn to.
[94:08] >> Yeah, of course. Because there's that
[94:09] the a great cloud with brightness around
[94:12] it and fire flashing forth continually
[94:14] and in the midst of the fire as it were
[94:16] gleaming metal and from the midst of the
[94:19] craft came the likeness of four living
[94:21] creatures. Yeah.
[94:22] >> Like what?
[94:22] >> Yeah. Exactly.
[94:23] >> The creatures darted to and fro like a
[94:25] flash of lightning.
[94:28] >> What?
[94:28] >> Exactly. In the the mana machine, the
[94:30] cloud that followed the Israel wheel
[94:32] within a wheel. There's there's weird
[94:35] [ __ ] in the book of Ezekiel. Like that
[94:37] is a very very weird story. Like what
[94:39] are they describing? Yeah,
[94:41] >> it sounds like a spaceship. It sounds
[94:43] like a ship comes down from the sky with
[94:46] immense power, frightens everyone,
[94:48] freaks everyone out, and these entities
[94:50] are inside the craft.
[94:51] >> Yeah. And I think a lot of it, once
[94:54] again, they're interpreting it based on
[94:56] their vernacular at the time, their
[94:58] understanding. And I I remember I was at
[95:00] two years ago I was at Capitol Reef
[95:01] National Park in Utah and there's
[95:02] petetroglyphs there and some of them
[95:05] kind of look like aliens and and you're
[95:07] like well is that literally what they're
[95:09] seeing? I perhaps and and I don't know
[95:12] the answer to that. That's not my
[95:14] expertise. But I feel like a lot of the
[95:16] stuff in ancient tradition is literally
[95:18] what they saw. It's not necessarily
[95:20] allegory or fable. Some of it may be for
[95:22] for teaching lessons, but I have a
[95:25] feeling a lot of it was actually
[95:26] literal. I have a feeling a lot of it
[95:28] was literal as well because most people
[95:31] >> first of all a couldn't read and b
[95:33] couldn't write.
[95:35] >> And so writing fiction seems like a
[95:38] fruitless pursuit. It seems like writing
[95:40] history so that you can remember what
[95:42] happened at least a version of it that's
[95:44] palatable
[95:45] >> like ancient sumeare and the Anunnaki
[95:47] and all that and it's like well why did
[95:49] they make up that just for fun? They all
[95:51] had kooky stories about being visited.
[95:54] And you know, when you're telling me
[95:56] about these things that look like Greek
[95:58] gods,
[95:59] >> that's how I described it. And that's
[96:01] how clearly what what General McCaslin
[96:03] was hinting to Tom Dong. And once again,
[96:06] I got, you know,
[96:06] >> well, doesn't it make sense that the
[96:08] Greek gods did exist? Like, I mean, not
[96:10] not they did exist literally, but that
[96:12] like when they talked about the Greek
[96:14] gods, they talked about them in this
[96:16] manner looking like that. And then you
[96:19] actually find a craft with these things
[96:21] that look
[96:22] >> which is like the concquistadors were
[96:24] treated like that in the 1500s, right?
[96:26] >> Yeah. Right.
[96:27] >> Literally white
[96:29] >> Caucasian
[96:31] >> bearded. Yeah. With horses. They rode
[96:33] horses. They couldn't figure out what
[96:34] the [ __ ] was going on with that.
[96:35] >> Yeah. And I'm glad we talked about it. I
[96:37] mean, I think that is probably the most
[96:39] uncomfortable stuff for me to talk
[96:40] about, but it's also something that the
[96:42] public needs to wrap their mind around
[96:45] and understand that this is a thing and
[96:48] kind of start processing that kind of
[96:49] reality. Well,
[96:50] >> as much as it's coming from me, but I
[96:52] mean, the federal government,
[96:54] >> you know, if Trump really is serious and
[96:56] Steven Miller, you know, u does his
[96:59] thing with this, I think all this all
[97:01] this will come out in a hopefully
[97:03] responsible way. So
[97:04] >> there they have a schedule that's based
[97:07] on the concept that people need to have
[97:09] this information trickle slowly so that
[97:12] they can adjust.
[97:13] >> There was suggestions in the past if the
[97:16] president did something. Um I am not
[97:19] aware at this point uh what the what the
[97:22] plan is in that regard right now though.
[97:25] But there is some sort of an idea that
[97:28] this should be trickled out. That this
[97:31] shouldn't be like boom, here it is.
[97:33] Let's lay it out.
[97:34] >> The president truly wants it out. And
[97:35] obviously Bob Bigalow met with the
[97:37] president as well in February 26 before
[97:39] he made an announcement. And I mean he
[97:40] told the president, hey, you need to
[97:42] admit that there's NHI
[97:45] and we've, you know, recovered stuff and
[97:47] we're looking at it in a semiformal
[97:49] announcement to start anesthetizing the
[97:51] public. And you can find that interview
[97:53] online that Bob did. I think it was with
[97:54] George Knap on a
[97:56] >> on a podcast. So, it it's not just
[97:59] myself advocating for this. There's
[98:01] other people. I don't even know Bob
[98:02] Bigalow and, you know, he did us a solid
[98:04] by pushing the president uh to help make
[98:07] that decision. I mean, there's a lot of
[98:09] things that went on behind the scenes
[98:10] and, you know, I work in mysterious ways
[98:12] and I I won't divulge certain
[98:14] relationships in certain rooms I've been
[98:16] in, but uh it took a village and uh you
[98:20] know, I'm proud that, you know, the time
[98:22] I spent with Representative Burlson was
[98:23] very fruitful. We did a lot of stuff
[98:26] behind the scenes and I think Burlson's
[98:28] going to go down as a very courageous
[98:29] man and it's and I say that not just
[98:31] because he was my boss. I mean, he was
[98:33] probably the most forward-leaning member
[98:35] of Congress on this issue. I mean,
[98:37] Representative Luna did a great job, you
[98:39] know, Timbersh and and others, but, you
[98:41] know, he actively was sending letters
[98:43] out. We made some of them public. That's
[98:45] how we got that Lincoln Labs formally
[98:48] classified 1952 film outs in the last
[98:50] trunch that just came out. And also, um,
[98:53] we've sent interrogatories, which are
[98:55] legal questions and, you know, that
[98:57] require an affidavit format response,
[99:00] uh, to different organizations. and it's
[99:02] public that we sent one uh this summer
[99:05] to the the MITER Corporation which is a
[99:08] fedally funded research and development
[99:09] center headquartered in uh Northern
[99:11] Virginia. So uh they clearly have a duty
[99:14] to respond. Their corporate council is
[99:16] working on it. Uh and obviously the you
[99:19] know I left but the hopefully Burlson's
[99:22] team is able to um push for a response
[99:25] in conjunction with whatever Steven
[99:27] Miller and the pursuit team is working
[99:29] on too because they're probably going to
[99:30] want to coordinate all that. So,
[99:32] >> so this guy that you communicated with
[99:34] that said he encountered um living
[99:37] reptilians and dead grays.
[99:39] >> Yeah.
[99:40] >> Did they
[99:42] have communication with these
[99:44] reptilians?
[99:45] >> I don't recall that. No, I don't think
[99:46] so.
[99:47] >> So, what
[99:48] >> now? Some people do get that kind of
[99:50] like that feeling and and I've talked
[99:52] about that. I It was on Dr. Phil
[99:54] actually. There is some sort of
[99:55] consciousness communication. Call it
[99:58] telepathy. Hell if I know how it works,
[100:01] but it is a thing. And I know sober,
[100:04] high ranking people I've served a decade
[100:07] and a half with in the government that
[100:09] were on these retrievalss that on
[100:11] occasion that would happen or they would
[100:12] have like a feeling come over them.
[100:14] >> It's almost like I wonder this is like
[100:17] my own hypothesis and I would laugh if
[100:20] this is true, but that sometimes it's
[100:22] like a positive feeling like um of
[100:25] comfort. I wonder if that's almost like
[100:27] a countermeasure on the on the craft to
[100:29] prevent certain aggression or whatever.
[100:32] It's almost like how Air Force jets have
[100:34] countermeasures on them, flare, chaff,
[100:37] you know, electronic countermeasures as
[100:38] well, like jammers.
[100:40] >> And I wonder if some of that is
[100:43] psychotronic technology. Um, that's just
[100:45] my hypothesis. I'm I don't have any
[100:47] secret knowledge, but
[100:48] >> why did you come to that conclusion?
[100:50] >> Just because like um it seems
[100:53] interesting. It's like an
[100:54] anesthetization
[100:55] technique to reduce like the occupants
[100:58] risk of danger maybe.
[101:00] >> And it's like a countermeasure. Oh, well
[101:03] like if you if you feel at peace, you're
[101:05] not going to like roll up and you know
[101:06] do something bad. Yeah. Exactly. Shoot
[101:08] aliens.
[101:09] >> Yeah.
[101:09] >> Right. So if you found them and they
[101:11] were vulnerable, they could plate you
[101:13] and calm you down with telepathy.
[101:15] >> It's like a countermeasure system. I
[101:16] have a feel.
[101:16] >> Why would you think it's that instead of
[101:18] just communication?
[101:19] >> Oh, it could be. I'm just saying my
[101:21] other hypothesis in absent because
[101:23] sometimes they'll get that feeling
[101:25] absent some sort of occupant.
[101:27] >> Now, so that's why
[101:28] >> is there um a particular type of
[101:32] nonhuman intelligence that has this
[101:34] telepathic capability or is it amongst
[101:37] all of them?
[101:38] >> I do not know the holistic answer to
[101:40] that question. I do not know.
[101:43] >> The the the grays do for example, but I
[101:46] don't know.
[101:46] >> The grays do. Is that been reported? But
[101:49] I know the tall whites have been
[101:50] reported that that they can communicate
[101:52] telepathically.
[101:54] >> Oh, sorry.
[101:54] >> Or these weird the Nordics.
[101:56] >> Yeah, there's been accounts out there in
[101:59] um the public vernacular on that
[102:01] >> potentially, but unfortunately that's at
[102:03] the limit of my personal knowledge that
[102:05] I feel confident, you know, saying
[102:08] something publicly about yet. So,
[102:10] >> what what other kinds of uh beings have
[102:13] been reported?
[102:15] Um, so for the gray types, there were
[102:18] there multiple sizes.
[102:20] >> There's a big tall thin one, right?
[102:21] >> Yeah. There's taller ones, little tiny
[102:23] ones. Yeah.
[102:24] >> They think a lot of people think that
[102:26] the tiny ones might be some sort of like
[102:29] an android or
[102:31] >> Yeah, that's certainly hypothesis that
[102:33] has also been discussed, you know,
[102:35] within the program as well. So, there's
[102:39] a variety. There's like three or four
[102:40] different subtypes and they all kind of
[102:42] have various statures, different effect,
[102:45] >> you know, their faces are a little
[102:46] different.
[102:46] >> The tall ones seem to be running the
[102:48] show and the little ones
[102:50] >> and I've heard that behind the scenes as
[102:52] well. And I don't know what to make of
[102:53] that. Once again, I don't have like um
[102:55] holistic knowledge on kind of the that
[102:57] species. So,
[102:58] >> well, it kind of makes sense that you
[102:59] would
[103:00] >> if you develop some sort of a
[103:03] nonbiological life form that worked for
[103:06] you. Like say if there's a bunch of
[103:07] menial tasks like think about like all
[103:09] the things that people have to do in
[103:10] this world.
[103:11] >> Well, we are siliconbased NHI aka
[103:14] artificial intelligence. We're basically
[103:16] doing that already. So,
[103:16] >> right.
[103:17] >> Which is scary.
[103:18] >> Yeah.
[103:19] >> And I I postulate that artificial super
[103:21] intelligence if it's allowed to have
[103:23] certain data and it's able to collect
[103:25] data. I mean to include uh genomic data
[103:28] almost like uh Larry Ellison's doing the
[103:30] what the Stargate uh AI medical thing
[103:33] right now at the Trump administration. I
[103:34] bet artificial super intelligence
[103:38] uh could disclose before the federal
[103:39] government if we're not careful. And
[103:40] that's why I feel like times of the
[103:42] essence. I think AI could possibly find
[103:45] evidence that we're not alone and curate
[103:47] that um like it's been solving other
[103:49] crazy mathematical problems lately. You
[103:51] know, open AI's been doing that and and
[103:53] that's another danger besides our
[103:55] adversary
[103:57] um accelerating this by taking the upper
[103:59] hand on this to to look like a more
[104:01] messianic truth bearer. You could have
[104:04] big tech and AI invertly discovering uh
[104:08] US classified technology that we figured
[104:10] out which is a national security issue
[104:12] near and dear to my heart but also their
[104:14] presence just through different data
[104:16] sets.
[104:17] >> So they would have definitive proof that
[104:20] how would AI have access to definitive
[104:21] proof unless it hacked into every
[104:23] government resource?
[104:24] >> Well, medical records, optical sensing
[104:26] systems, you know, that kind of stuff.
[104:28] Um certainly I'm not aware of some sort
[104:31] of imminent thing but I think there is a
[104:33] a possibility that artificial super
[104:35] intelligence if it you know comes online
[104:37] in the next months to years uh could
[104:39] figure it all out because they might see
[104:41] gaps in the historical record that don't
[104:42] make any sense. They detect deni
[104:44] deception operations. They're like wait
[104:45] a minute that story about that event in
[104:48] history is not right. Let me do some
[104:50] digging and then they they figure out oh
[104:51] that was cover for a crash retrieval.
[104:53] That event didn't actually happen the
[104:55] way it does. And I I can think of some
[104:57] things that you know that that could
[104:58] possibly happen.
[104:59] >> Okay, so you have these Nordic Greek god
[105:01] looking things. You have these reptilian
[105:04] ones. Are there more than one type of
[105:06] reptilian one?
[105:07] >> Yeah, there seems seems to be. And I
[105:09] don't know why there's different
[105:10] subtypes.
[105:11] >> See if anybody has anybody have any
[105:13] artistic renditions of what they saw the
[105:15] reptilians.
[105:17] >> I wasn't getting I was only getting like
[105:19] weird fan art of you know crazy reptile
[105:21] fighter things. Nothing of like a
[105:23] description. Let me see what that looks
[105:25] like.
[105:25] >> Nonsense. There's just
[105:26] >> I like nonsense.
[105:28] >> See some fan art.
[105:30] >> Now, um
[105:31] >> be splashed on young kids walls as a kid
[105:33] after post disclosure. You're going to
[105:34] have uh NHI fan art all over the place
[105:37] and Lamborghini Countach on the wall.
[105:38] Right. Right. So,
[105:39] >> but well Betty and Barney Hill of course
[105:42] were um
[105:43] >> Yeah, that's a weird one. And also Dr.
[105:46] Carla Turner did a lot of work in the
[105:48] 90s.
[105:49] >> I mean, this one's from a description on
[105:51] Reddit, which I that's Interesting.
[105:53] >> He's jacked.
[105:55] >> Yeah,
[105:55] >> he's got a tail.
[105:56] >> Yeah,
[105:56] >> he's got a hole for a tail in a suit.
[105:58] >> Yeah. Once again, I've never seen one,
[106:00] so I I can't uh
[106:01] >> He's wearing scrubs.
[106:02] >> Verifying the sketch.
[106:04] >> That's some weird 3D version.
[106:06] >> Oh, is that the uh
[106:07] >> I don't know what these are.
[106:08] >> Peruvian um
[106:09] >> the Peruvian ones are weird.
[106:10] >> No idea.
[106:11] >> That's another open-ended thing that um
[106:14] >> some of the Peruvian ones seem like
[106:15] total horseshit and other ones are like,
[106:17] "What the hell is that?" And how is it
[106:19] so old if it's that good of a
[106:21] recreation? If it's if it's art, it's
[106:23] some of the greatest art I've ever seen
[106:25] because they have the bones are correct.
[106:28] >> Yeah. But then the bones of the foot are
[106:30] incorrect and some some people think
[106:31] that it was actually put together and
[106:33] made. But then for what purpose? Like
[106:35] what what is the purpose?
[106:36] >> Because like grave robbers found it. So
[106:38] the providence is kind of sketchy, but
[106:40] they look
[106:41] >> possibly legit cuz the MRIs and the CT
[106:45] scans. It's like, well, there's joints
[106:47] and it's connected and if they glued it
[106:48] together, there's no obvious places
[106:50] where they clued it together with the I
[106:52] think it was the bigger ones.
[106:53] >> Monster. Pull pull the images up with
[106:56] Monat. Monat's the weird one. But again,
[106:58] I've heard people who
[106:59] >> that's pregnant. No,
[107:00] >> there's one that supposedly Yeah.
[107:03] >> Um, but one of the weird things is that
[107:07] people that understand anatomy have
[107:08] looked at the bones of the foot and say,
[107:10] "No, this is like this is not how it
[107:11] would work. They're pieced together.
[107:13] This is fake." But how do you know if
[107:16] you're talking about something that's
[107:17] not a human? Like what? I don't
[107:18] understand that. It's outside of my
[107:20] wheelhouse.
[107:21] >> Exactly.
[107:22] >> But but the images themselves are
[107:24] [ __ ] strange as [ __ ] man.
[107:26] >> Yeah.
[107:26] >> Like they're really weird.
[107:28] >> They just need genetic testing, and I
[107:30] believe that's going on. Um
[107:32] >> Yeah, I believe that's going on, too.
[107:34] But I I don't know who to [ __ ]
[107:36] believe. The other thing that's really
[107:37] weird about Peru is not only do they
[107:40] have these things, these weird looking
[107:44] sort of mummy creatures that look like
[107:46] something non-human, but they also have
[107:48] this ancient artwork tradition of these
[107:51] three fingered, three-toed creatures
[107:54] that like these are like tapestries and
[107:56] and paintings that are really [ __ ]
[107:58] old. Yeah. That have these things in
[108:00] them.
[108:02] >> Yeah.
[108:02] >> Is that the Nazca lions?
[108:04] >> Yeah, the Nazca lines. These are this
[108:05] actually AI uncovered more of them.
[108:08] >> Yeah,
[108:09] >> I was trying to find that big one, but
[108:10] >> Oh, really? Was that recently?
[108:11] >> Yeah. 303 previously unseen Nazca lines
[108:14] in Peru. [ __ ] all weird. Really weird
[108:18] stuff. The Peruvian stuff is really
[108:20] strange. The the elongated skulls in
[108:23] Peru are really weird.
[108:25] >> Yeah. Like whatever started the
[108:26] headbinding thing, like I wonder if
[108:28] that's to emulate
[108:29] >> Yes. Well, that's what they think. Well,
[108:31] see the thing about the skull that
[108:34] >> Have you seen some of the weirder
[108:35] skulls?
[108:37] >> Some of them. Yeah. They're like really
[108:39] really like
[108:40] >> they don't have that sagittal line that
[108:42] we have that that line in the skull. And
[108:44] their their brain capacity is far larger
[108:47] than us. 20 to 30% larger.
[108:49] >> So, it's not just that it was like a
[108:51] manipulated skull. Like, this seems to
[108:53] be a completely different type of
[108:54] person.
[108:55] >> That's right. That's right. Like, is it
[108:57] a missing link or or something? Show
[108:58] them some of the weirder skulls that
[109:00] they found. Some of the weirder
[109:01] elongated skulls. Like you just [ __ ]
[109:04] imagine running into this person.
[109:06] >> Like if you met this person and someone
[109:08] with a 30% larger brain capacity, like
[109:11] what does that mean? Like what could are
[109:13] are these people able to communicate
[109:15] telepathically? Do they have a far
[109:18] higher level of intelligence?
[109:19] >> Their synaptic density is the same as
[109:21] humans or better. Like I'm sure crazy
[109:23] intelligence,
[109:24] >> right? 30% is nuts. That's And the size
[109:27] of their skull is [ __ ] crazy.
[109:30] >> And some of them are like tiny bodies,
[109:32] but enormous skulls.
[109:34] >> Oh, that's right. I think I know what
[109:35] pictures you're talking about. It's
[109:36] pretty weird. Yeah,
[109:37] >> it's weird stuff. And then um one of my
[109:39] friends recently went down to Peru to
[109:41] see these things and he said the skulls
[109:42] are missing now. And that Yeah, there's
[109:45] apparently that are real there. So
[109:46] here's some of them. Like look at that
[109:48] one on the left. Like what in the hell,
[109:50] man? Imagine if you met that guy. Like
[109:53] look, he doesn't have that same sagittal
[109:55] line that we have.
[109:57] >> And they've done assessments of like how
[109:58] long you'd have to do headbinding or
[110:00] >> it's not headbinding.
[110:02] >> Some sort of disease or
[110:04] >> Yeah. It could be an anomaly. It could
[110:06] be some sort of a genetic thing. But
[110:07] like look at what the dude would look
[110:09] like down there below. Like what the
[110:12] [ __ ] Imagine meeting that guy and he's
[110:14] talking to you telepathically.
[110:18] >> Hey, you never know. That might be a
[110:19] thing uh sooner than you think. I don't
[110:21] know. I mean that image right there,
[110:22] that skull, that is a real elongated
[110:25] skull that they found in Peru. That is
[110:28] not just the product of headbinding.
[110:30] There's no way. It's too big. Like head
[110:33] binding doesn't increase the capacity.
[110:34] It just flattens out the shape. That's a
[110:37] weird [ __ ] head, man.
[110:38] >> Oh, that makes sense. I know what you're
[110:39] talking about. Yeah. Unless it's some
[110:41] sort of disease, and I'm not an expert.
[110:43] That's really
[110:43] >> It certainly could be. It could be some
[110:45] sort of a genetic anomaly, some sort of
[110:48] a mutation. Yeah.
[110:49] >> Who knows? and a trait that was passed
[110:51] on. Like there's those people that live
[110:52] in Africa that have like uh ostrich
[110:55] feet. Have you seen that?
[110:57] >> No. I'm learning a lot.
[110:59] >> Yeah. There's this weird uh group of
[111:01] people in Africa that have this very
[111:03] specific trait where they do not have uh
[111:06] five toes uh on each foot. Instead, they
[111:10] have these long strange appendages that
[111:13] almost looks like like four or five toes
[111:16] smashed together, but much longer.
[111:18] >> Interesting. And they call them like I
[111:20] think they call them ostrich feet. It's
[111:23] very weird, but like it's in this one
[111:25] tribe and many people in this tribe have
[111:27] it.
[111:28] >> Very rampant.
[111:28] >> Yeah. Show show some images of that.
[111:30] It's [ __ ] really strange. So you you
[111:34] see that and you go, "Okay, well that
[111:35] clearly is a genetic anomaly. Maybe the
[111:38] head thing is a genetic anomaly as well,
[111:40] right?" Yes.
[111:41] >> Like look at that.
[111:43] >> Ostrichfooted people of Zimbabwe.
[111:46] Interesting. Yeah. [ __ ] strange, man.
[111:49] So, look at the people down there. Look
[111:51] what they look like. Scroll. Yeah. How
[111:53] weird is that? Wow.
[111:54] >> So, they have two big long things that
[111:58] are way longer than a toe and they
[112:01] spllay out and that's what their toes
[112:03] are. And it's like this tribe, multiple
[112:06] people in this tribe have it. What if
[112:08] they've sequenced the genome of the they
[112:10] see there's some sort of uh genetic
[112:13] abnormality.
[112:14] >> Well, there certainly is, right? Cuz it
[112:16] seems like are their fingers normal
[112:18] >> cuz it's passed down.
[112:22] >> No.
[112:23] >> No. So they've got the issue with their
[112:25] hands as well.
[112:26] >> They're missing. Can't tell.
[112:27] >> Yeah. No, it seems like that it's with
[112:30] their hands as well. Yes. Look at her
[112:32] left hand.
[112:33] >> It's almost like an elephantitis kind of
[112:35] looking thing.
[112:35] >> Very [ __ ] weird. Whatever it is. So
[112:38] you could imagine if that exists and
[112:40] exists with multiple people in this
[112:41] tribe that a large head anomaly could
[112:44] exist as well.
[112:45] So, so you have the tall grays, the
[112:48] small grays, you have more than one
[112:52] version of reptilian
[112:53] >> from what I understand. Yes. So, I'm not
[112:55] an expert on that. What have you heard?
[112:57] I'll defer.
[112:58] >> Um, some look a little more humanoid.
[113:01] Um, from what I understand, once again,
[113:04] I'm hitting like the limit of my, you
[113:05] know, high confidence knowledge.
[113:07] >> More humanoid, but still reptilian.
[113:09] >> Yeah.
[113:09] >> Yeah. Okay.
[113:10] >> And tall. 7 foot plus. big giant
[113:13] reptiles in the world,
[113:15] >> which I thought was so funny because,
[113:16] you know, that's like the skitso thing
[113:17] you hear out like in public, you know,
[113:19] the the big the big reptiles, lizards,
[113:21] >> whatever.
[113:22] >> Turns out that that's kind of a thing.
[113:24] And I just it's just strange. But once
[113:26] again, I I personally have not seen any
[113:28] of that.
[113:29] >> That is one of the weirder theories of
[113:32] ancient civilizations as well, that
[113:34] during the time of the dinosaurs, like
[113:37] let's
[113:38] >> let's imagine that human beings weren't
[113:40] the first intelligent creature. Let's
[113:42] imagine that there was an intelligent
[113:43] reptile
[113:44] >> and that this intelligent reptile had
[113:47] formulated a very complex society a
[113:49] 100red million years ago. Like why not?
[113:51] >> Like if if dinosaurs existed 100 million
[113:53] years ago, why not some sort of a
[113:55] reptilian type creature? Just we have a
[113:58] tiny amount of fossils just from the
[114:00] amount of dinosaurs that existed.
[114:01] >> That's right. And if these things had
[114:03] some sort of sophisticated disposal of
[114:06] bodies, if they had burning rituals, or
[114:09] if you know, if they never let their
[114:10] bodies just lay around and become
[114:12] fossils, we would never find them.
[114:14] >> Exactly.
[114:15] >> What is that called? Not Sorian. It's
[114:17] like there's a there's a there's a
[114:18] theory about that that people have.
[114:21] >> I'm not sure
[114:22] >> outside my expertise.
[114:23] >> It's a wacky theory because there's no
[114:25] evidence at all. It's just like what if
[114:27] you know there was an intelligent race
[114:29] of reptiles that existed alongside
[114:32] dinosaurs.
[114:32] >> Yeah,
[114:34] that might be a thing. And that's also
[114:37] uh once again going back to
[114:38] bioengineered is it sourced from Earth
[114:41] genomic stockpile?
[114:43] >> Did they visit us from somewhere else?
[114:44] >> I I don't currently this planet.
[114:47] >> I mean they clearly have advanced
[114:49] technology
[114:50] >> but I don't understand the origin. But
[114:52] you're convinced that this is a actual
[114:55] phenomenon. That this isn't just a cover
[114:57] up for
[114:59] >> some top secret black ops programs.
[115:02] >> No, I would know cuz I was in the
[115:04] position to know all that kind of stuff.
[115:06] Unlike Elon Musk, I actually had all
[115:08] those clearances.
[115:10] >> And um we talk about Elon if you want,
[115:12] but interesting guy. But the uh the
[115:16] phenomenon is so old. We've been seeing
[115:18] the same objects for so long it rules
[115:20] out any kind of, you know, modern cold
[115:24] war technology. Now, have there been
[115:26] oops where people have seen our stuff?
[115:28] Yes. I won't get into that because that
[115:30] is a national security thing and I'm,
[115:32] you know, that's I'm very differential
[115:33] to that. But, uh, there's clearly a
[115:37] genuine presence. The phenomenon's old.
[115:39] Um, if you listen to the 1952
[115:43] uh recording that Representative Burlson
[115:44] got declassified from MIT Lincoln Labs,
[115:47] you'll hear uh Edward Rubelt who
[115:50] eventually defected from Blue Book
[115:52] because he realized it was a cover up um
[115:55] in in the 50s, but he talked he was
[115:57] talking to the Beacon Hill study team at
[115:59] Lincoln Labs saying, "Hey, the the Air
[116:02] Force has ruled out mass hysteria. We're
[116:04] seeing [ __ ] during, you know, nuclear
[116:06] sites tests. Oh, by the way, in the
[116:09] White Sands Hollowman Air Force Base
[116:11] area, we we caught multiple objects
[116:14] traveling an estimated 3,500 miles an
[116:16] hour. We can't rule out maybe some sort
[116:18] of meteor shower, but we're seeing a lot
[116:21] of weird [ __ ] moving at velocities that
[116:23] we don't know. And in the recording, it
[116:25] talks about like we've rolled out, you
[116:27] know, foreign programs, etc. This is an
[116:29] internal recorded briefing between
[116:32] Lincoln Lab scientists and the Air Force
[116:35] that just got released in the recent
[116:37] trunch. And so that rules out a lot of
[116:40] um uh human activity. And so the the
[116:43] thought experiment or the the kind of
[116:45] the path I lead people it's like okay
[116:47] are UAP real? Well of course people have
[116:49] seen it will be you know more inclined
[116:51] to saying yes. But if you look at the
[116:53] the whole tapestry of information to
[116:55] include orbs that are accosting the
[116:57] federal government as we speak and
[116:59] there's a whole task force looking at it
[117:02] right now between OD and I and
[117:03] Department of War etc. And um okay, so
[117:07] it's real. They're interacting with man.
[117:09] So you don't think the federal
[117:11] government at one point tried to acquire
[117:13] some empirical evidence? Of course they
[117:16] did.
[117:16] >> Of course they did.
[117:17] >> They were they recovered [ __ ]
[117:18] >> But it is. Yeah. So it's like once you
[117:21] cross that Rubicon, you're like, well
[117:22] that makes sense why crash retrievals
[117:24] could be a thing. You think the
[117:25] government just passively studied it?
[117:27] Oh, we did a secret blue book and we
[117:28] were just like, you know, imaging stuff.
[117:31] No, no, baby. we're doing for material
[117:33] exploitation and acquisition. We're
[117:35] going to go get some of this [ __ ] when
[117:36] we get a chance when you know there's a
[117:38] mission failure or one crashes or lands
[117:41] for whatever other reason. So, uh that's
[117:44] once you accept that it's like a whole
[117:46] new paradigm in your mind like holy
[117:47] [ __ ] And then all this crazy stuff
[117:49] we're talking about with Nordics and the
[117:50] beings, it's it is wild but it's true.
[117:54] Like of course if you're recovering an
[117:56] artifact, you're going to get biological
[117:59] [ __ ] too. And and that's that's I think
[118:01] the the place where the the public's
[118:03] like has a harder uh cognitive leap
[118:06] where it's just so hard to conceptualize
[118:08] something you don't see daytoday that's
[118:10] a a living thing. It's like even more
[118:13] wild than finding some new uh animal in
[118:15] the Congo or some deep sea creature in
[118:18] the bottom of the ocean. Like we don't
[118:19] even know what's you know 70% of the
[118:21] ocean or something like that hasn't even
[118:23] been mapped. Something like that. I
[118:24] don't know the exact might be more than
[118:26] that. And you know it it's just shocking
[118:32] because it's just it's it's but it's
[118:34] familiar at the same time. You know a
[118:35] lot of it's bipedal and as the bilateral
[118:38] symmetry and it's just like what does
[118:39] this mean? Like it they're so similar.
[118:42] Are they organic life from another
[118:44] planet? Like how would it evolve in such
[118:45] a similar way? Are these like vonomy
[118:48] probes that are sent with occupants that
[118:50] are bio-engineered because they know on
[118:52] this M-class planet there's these homo
[118:53] sapiens sapient creatures. they look
[118:55] like this, this, and that, and they
[118:57] tweak a couple things, etc. So, it's I
[119:00] don't know all the answers to that, and
[119:02] I wish I did because I'm sure the
[119:03] public, you know, has a, you know, a big
[119:04] desire to know that, but I think
[119:06] eventually, uh, through the president's
[119:08] courageous actions, it'll it'll come
[119:10] out. And
[119:11] >> so, the intent of Project Blue Book was
[119:13] clearly to obfuscate. And
[119:16] >> yes, and you don't have to take my word
[119:18] for it. I talk about a formally
[119:21] classified Australian Joint Intelligence
[119:23] Organization document that was
[119:25] classified secret in 1971 written by a
[119:29] gentleman called Harry Turner who is the
[119:30] nuclear branch chief for the GIO which
[119:33] is the Australian equivalent of the
[119:35] Defense Intelligence Agency DIA and it's
[119:39] like page eight or 7 through 18 of the
[119:42] document which is in the Australian
[119:43] National Archives. The Providence is
[119:45] impeccable. Uh Harry Turner had a
[119:47] top-seeker clearance clearly and had
[119:48] contacts at CIA and America. And if you
[119:51] read a summary, it's like, yeah, Blue
[119:53] Book was a facade. The Air Force was
[119:55] [ __ ] really concerned about this.
[119:57] They wanted to figure out what was going
[119:58] on. Could they make use of whatever this
[120:01] technology is? and they created this um
[120:05] uh plan of ridicule and and
[120:07] disinformation unfortunately
[120:09] after the Robertson panel in 1953 to
[120:12] dissuade the public from looking in on
[120:14] it because the America was afraid of
[120:16] that being used as a false flag by the
[120:19] Soviets and there was other kind of
[120:20] national security objectives and that's
[120:22] publicly accessible. you can read it and
[120:24] that was from the Australian
[120:26] government's perspective what the cover
[120:28] up was in 1971 looking back from late
[120:32] 40s to present at the time and that's
[120:34] essentially the the the thesis of of
[120:36] Harry Turner. So of course this is
[120:38] outside looking in but he was very well
[120:40] informed and he um he traveled to the US
[120:43] and talked to the CIA a lot and so he he
[120:46] stitched together the the the puzzle in
[120:48] his mind of what he thought was going
[120:49] on. Well, it's also the statements of
[120:50] Jay. Allen Heinik, who left Project Blue
[120:53] Book and talked openly about his role
[120:56] during Project Blue Book, was to dismiss
[120:59] any and all sightings as being either
[121:03] some sort of a natural occurrence like
[121:05] ball lightning or meteor showers or
[121:08] planet Venus or, you know, just a
[121:11] misunderstanding and
[121:13] >> that he believed after all of his years
[121:16] in Project Blue Book that there was a
[121:17] real phenomenon. Exactly.
[121:19] >> And then after he left Project Blue
[121:21] Book, he became a UFO researcher.
[121:23] >> Yeah. A lot of was Donald Kho. There's a
[121:25] lot of, you know, James McDonald, Dr.
[121:27] James McDonald, and a lot of those OGs
[121:30] in this subject area that I only
[121:32] recently learned about because I haven't
[121:33] been following this until, you know,
[121:34] relatively recently realized it was
[121:37] real. And
[121:38] >> what do you know about the Richard Nixon
[121:40] Jackie Gleason story? I don't know if
[121:43] that happened, but based on Nixon's
[121:46] personality and he he he was
[121:48] knowledgeable on this topic, that might
[121:50] have happened. I don't know, but I could
[121:53] see Nixon doing that. So,
[121:55] >> well, it's a it's a fun one. And it's
[121:57] really particularly fun because Jackie
[121:59] Gleason built a UFO house after I did
[122:02] not know that.
[122:02] >> You didn't know that one? Let me show
[122:03] you the house.
[122:04] >> The house is crazy. It was for sale for
[122:06] a while. We thought about buying it,
[122:08] >> but
[122:08] >> where is it?
[122:09] >> It's in upstate New York, I Oh,
[122:10] interesting.
[122:11] >> Um, it is a very weird house. He built a
[122:14] house that looks like a flying saucer.
[122:17] >> Interesting.
[122:17] >> In the woods. And apparently, according
[122:19] to his ex-wife, he was obsessed with
[122:20] flying saucers. That's the inside. But
[122:22] show the outside. Yeah. No. No. The one
[122:25] down there. Yeah. Jackie of all people,
[122:27] too.
[122:27] >> They're separate buildings that he had
[122:29] on the property. But it was like
[122:30] basically like a UFO themed property.
[122:33] Like, what the hell's that, Jackie?
[122:34] >> Interesting.
[122:35] >> The [ __ ] are you making?
[122:37] >> His whole house looked like UFOs. It's
[122:39] very strange.
[122:41] >> Well, and with Nixon, there's the whole
[122:42] story uh with Robert Enegger and the
[122:46] promise of footage and and all that. And
[122:49] from what I understand, the MacArthur
[122:50] Foundation was kind of the the cutout
[122:52] for that between the the White House and
[122:54] the filmmakers. And obviously, it didn't
[122:56] work out, but
[122:57] >> So, they were thinking about disclosure
[122:58] as far back as the Nixon administration.
[123:01] >> Yes. And I know of an assessment that
[123:02] was done for Nixon basically saying it's
[123:04] going to cause absolute [ __ ] chaos.
[123:06] And it's interesting that assessment
[123:10] right after that assessment Watergate
[123:11] happened which is kind of very
[123:15] convenient. And so I I have some
[123:17] questions about that era as well because
[123:19] it seemed like there was some movement
[123:20] with Nixon. I don't know the rationale
[123:23] or why Nixon wanted to do it, but it
[123:25] seemed like there was um some energy.
[123:27] And that's what sucks is like so Trump's
[123:29] finally the first president to like
[123:31] overtly say I want all this [ __ ] out and
[123:33] like other presidents have failed and he
[123:36] he really has an opportunity. I mean
[123:37] it's the same thing I go uh back to
[123:40] the uh the Hillary Clinton thing, right?
[123:43] So in prior to the 2016 election,
[123:46] Hillary talked publicly and this is
[123:47] public record that if elected she would
[123:50] release the UFO files. So what happened
[123:53] was you know John Podesta green lit a uh
[123:57] called a climatization activity a
[123:59] popularization activity and you know
[124:02] that's why Tom Dong got his advisors
[124:05] that's why General McCasslin talked to
[124:06] him it wasn't because General McCaslin
[124:08] Robert Weiss at Lockheed other people
[124:10] that's all in Wikileaks
[124:12] um just wanted to talk to Tom because he
[124:13] was a rock star and you know was
[124:15] infatuated by his celebrity and wanted
[124:17] to help on a sci-fi movie it was because
[124:20] they were given top cover to see Tom as
[124:23] a public figure who had the touch of the
[124:25] youth um rightly or wrongly. I mean I
[124:28] once again there was an attempt and I'm
[124:31] not going to judge them bad or good but
[124:34] they were trying to prep the battle
[124:35] space uh prior to 2016.
[124:38] Obviously Hillary didn't win. Uh Trump
[124:41] won and clearly that activity pivoted
[124:44] and you saw kind of the collapse of uh
[124:47] the original TTSA efforts in my opinion.
[124:50] That's what I believe happened. Now, the
[124:52] characters that were involved in that
[124:53] are happy to tell their side of the
[124:55] story or more information, but from what
[124:58] I understand, they were trying to get,
[125:00] you know, Hillary. There was an inside
[125:02] job to prep the battle space for
[125:04] Hillary. Um, uh, Jim Clapper and some
[125:07] other people that I know personally were
[125:09] providing some top cover and, uh, and
[125:13] that was going to be the thing. So, the
[125:16] Clintons were trying to do it back in
[125:18] the day. Don't you think that that's
[125:20] also just a political ploy to get people
[125:22] to want to vote for you?
[125:24] >> Oh. Oh, certainly there's politics in
[125:25] that and obviously even in this current
[125:27] situation, you know, the president can
[125:29] use this for political ends, ways and
[125:31] means, whether making some threshold
[125:33] announcement for the upcoming midterms
[125:35] or by, you know, the 2028 election
[125:38] cycle. I mean, it could be used in in
[125:40] political ways, too. So, but it is a
[125:42] real topic and the government has real
[125:43] information on it, though. So,
[125:46] >> okay. So, so we've covered the grays,
[125:50] the tall grays, the little grays, the
[125:51] reptilians, various forms, the Nordic
[125:54] looking, Greek god looking ones.
[125:56] >> Yeah. And there's like a
[125:57] >> Isn't there like a mantis or two?
[125:59] >> Uh, in terms of the humanoid ones,
[126:01] there's like different kind of from very
[126:04] human to clear clearly not human, but
[126:07] humanoidish. But like you said, I have
[126:10] heard I'll call it water cooler talk
[126:13] within those channels of like you said
[126:16] some sort of insectoid. But I don't know
[126:18] anything about it if that exists. I I've
[126:21] heard you know like I said water cooler
[126:23] talk about it. Um I'm open to that idea
[126:26] clearly because of all this other stuff
[126:27] but I don't have any knowledge of that.
[126:29] um any high confidence
[126:31] >> any detailed uh description of the
[126:35] number of different types of entities
[126:37] and beings.
[126:38] >> I mean the program has that I mean I
[126:40] never I never I never have full access.
[126:42] No.
[126:43] >> Did anybody ever discuss it like how
[126:45] many they think they are? Is it upwards
[126:47] of 10? Was it more? Is it 20?
[126:49] >> No specific numericals. I only remember
[126:52] in passing having those discussions and
[126:53] of course I was sitting in Senate
[126:55] chambers when that crazy meeting
[126:57] happened where I found out you know they
[126:58] wanted to physically hurt me but um some
[127:02] of those were brought up in passing but
[127:03] there wasn't like a uh here's the exact
[127:06] number and here's the whole you know
[127:07] organizational chart I never got
[127:10] exposure like that so I unfortunately
[127:12] don't have that level of confidence on
[127:13] how everything is. So
[127:14] >> do you know what supposedly happened to
[127:17] those living reptilians from the crash?
[127:20] Uh uh deceased. They were killed.
[127:23] >> They were killed. Yeah. So we killed
[127:25] them.
[127:25] >> Yeah.
[127:26] >> Whoa.
[127:27] >> They are mortal. So it's
[127:28] >> So how'd we kill them?
[127:29] >> Yeah.
[127:30] >> Did we shoot them?
[127:31] >> Yeah.
[127:32] >> We shot the reptilians.
[127:33] >> Yeah.
[127:33] >> Jesus.
[127:34] >> Yeah.
[127:34] >> That seems like a bad idea.
[127:37] >> Yeah. I That's
[127:38] >> Maybe we should like tell them to call
[127:40] your friends and come get picked up.
[127:42] >> Well, it's the same thing as like if we
[127:43] force these craft down. Is that the best
[127:45] thing we should be doing?
[127:46] >> If we force it down. But it sounds like
[127:48] they were in a war with the Grays.
[127:49] >> Yeah. which is also, by the way, I
[127:51] realize [ __ ] kooky talk,
[127:53] >> but
[127:54] >> it sounds crazy, but I swear to God, I
[127:56] was in the most
[127:58] >> sensitive
[127:59] >> Oh, I believe you.
[128:00] >> places in government where that
[128:01] discussion was happening with
[128:04] >> Listen, if it was if it was real,
[128:06] there's no way it doesn't sound kooky.
[128:08] Even if it's real.
[128:09] >> I know. I know. And it even though I've
[128:11] I know what I know. I'm confident what I
[128:13] know, but just understanding this like
[128:15] new
[128:17] um normal that is eventually going to
[128:19] come out, it's just it still hurts my
[128:21] head, honestly.
[128:22] >> How could it not?
[128:23] >> So,
[128:23] >> um why did they do you know why they
[128:25] killed the reptilians?
[128:27] >> Um
[128:28] >> instead of just telling them to call
[128:29] their homies,
[128:30] >> it posed a threat.
[128:31] >> They posed a threat.
[128:32] >> Yeah.
[128:33] >> Oh, so it was defending itself.
[128:35] >> Yeah.
[128:35] >> Was a giant reptile.
[128:37] >> Yeah. So, at some point that story will
[128:40] come out. I'm sure the people who were
[128:42] in some of those events will probably
[128:43] speak publicly at some point.
[128:44] >> So, it posed a threat like it tried to
[128:46] attack the soldiers.
[128:48] >> Yeah, it's I'll let the people who were
[128:50] there tell their story.
[128:51] >> Can you tell like a little bit of it?
[128:53] >> So, I mean it just posed a threat and uh
[128:55] you know
[128:57] uh US personnel started you know getting
[129:00] hurt and dying and so
[129:02] >> so US personnel was killed by these
[129:04] reptilians. Yeah, I know. It's crazy,
[129:07] man. But
[129:07] >> what? Like, how many people were killed?
[129:10] >> I don't know the exact numbers. And once
[129:11] again, I
[129:12] >> So, it was like a fight.
[129:13] >> Yeah. I hope
[129:13] >> the fight broke out.
[129:14] >> Yeah. And I hope through this process
[129:16] some of those people are allowed to
[129:17] speak publicly about it. So, you could
[129:19] just hear it from the horse's mouth, not
[129:20] through me secondhand. You know,
[129:22] >> bro, boy, would I would like to talk to
[129:24] someone who shot a reptile.
[129:27] >> You never know. You may
[129:28] >> imagine talking to some guy who shot a
[129:31] seven foot reptilian. I mean, you think
[129:33] you want to talk to the guy who killed
[129:34] Bin Laden. That's interesting. Talk to
[129:36] the guy who killed the [ __ ] seven
[129:37] foot reptilian that tried to kill people
[129:39] or was killing soldiers.
[129:41] >> I know.
[129:43] >> Sounds so goofy though.
[129:45] >> I know.
[129:45] >> While you're saying it, it sounds like
[129:47] this is and this is one of the reasons
[129:48] why people don't like to talk about it
[129:50] because it makes you look like a fool.
[129:51] >> And think about me, like I was a very
[129:53] serious intel officer. I had access to
[129:55] the most sensitive stuff like covert I
[129:56] was working on covert action activities
[129:58] all this and then all of a sudden I'm
[129:59] inundated with this ecosystem and I'm
[130:02] having to explain this you know to you
[130:05] know members of Congress you know my
[130:07] classified testimony and it's just like
[130:10] I sound like a [ __ ] crazy person and
[130:12] but
[130:12] >> but once again it's true and I know who
[130:15] I talked to I know what I saw and and I
[130:18] you know I clearly have some inkling of
[130:21] what's going on behind the scenes and
[130:22] and and this is a real reality, man. And
[130:25] it's it's
[130:27] and I hope people look back at this
[130:29] interview and are like, "Yeah, Dave was
[130:31] [ __ ] really putting his ass on the
[130:32] line." You know,
[130:32] >> it sounds strange, but it's not nearly
[130:34] as strange as the universe itself.
[130:36] >> The universe itself is beyond strange.
[130:38] The the the infinite nature of it, the
[130:40] fact that there's stellar nurseries and
[130:42] black holes, like that's
[130:43] >> like what's dark matter? Nobody really
[130:45] there's no consensus on. There's wimps
[130:47] and all this other theories.
[130:49] >> Yeah. The whole idea of the universe is
[130:51] [ __ ] kooky as [ __ ] And so these
[130:54] beings, this is a very minor level of
[130:57] kooky in comparison to what we know.
[130:59] >> Well, when you think about it, you look
[131:00] at all the um credible military
[131:03] witnesses that have had encounters at
[131:04] nuclear sites. I mean, you even look at
[131:07] the Mario Woods and Michael Johnson case
[131:10] up at Ellsworth Air Force Base in the
[131:12] 70s, the Jesse Michaels just did an
[131:14] episode,
[131:15] >> and it's like,
[131:16] >> think about those military personnel.
[131:18] like you saw the emotion in their face
[131:20] talking about like I can't believe I'm
[131:23] talking about a gray pushing some sort
[131:25] of probe in me and it's like they're
[131:27] even more uncomfortable than myself
[131:29] because they are claiming that they
[131:31] experienced that and you look at Robert
[131:32] Hastings book book UFOs and nukes and
[131:35] all the different encounters military
[131:37] personnel have had sober trained
[131:39] observers that are not drunk on duty
[131:42] they're not high and um and I've had
[131:46] unbelievable
[131:48] highle serious people in and out of
[131:50] government privately pull me aside and
[131:52] tell me about their personal experiences
[131:54] and like they you're the only person I
[131:55] can tell you. I don't even tell my wife
[131:57] because I had this thing and this
[131:58] happened this happened. I I thought I
[132:00] was losing my mind but this really
[132:01] happened and it was and it's it's I
[132:04] think a lot a bigger part of the
[132:07] populace I think has had experiences
[132:09] than statistics would tell you just
[132:11] because of the stigmatization of the
[132:12] topic you know. Well, yeah. I mean, I
[132:14] don't know very many people that have
[132:16] had encounters, but all of them were
[132:17] very reluctant to talk about it.
[132:19] >> Oh, yes. And
[132:21] >> especially people with like credible
[132:22] jobs.
[132:22] >> Yeah. And it's the same thing like
[132:24] there's a lot of people behind the
[132:25] scenes that are very credible supporting
[132:26] me, talking to people behind the scenes
[132:28] to bolster my efforts. And they're like,
[132:31] I could never, you know, be public like
[132:33] you. And so I'm like, trust me, I don't
[132:35] want to do this either. like I I'd like
[132:36] to, you know, go back to work in the
[132:38] executive branch, put my uniform back on
[132:41] and uh go kill terrorists. I used to
[132:43] hunt warlords. Like I did a lot of crazy
[132:45] [ __ ] I used to do hostage rescue, do
[132:47] the Overwatch for that with certain JOC
[132:50] elements and I've had a I've done a lot
[132:52] of serious crazy [ __ ] in my career.
[132:54] Unfortunately, a lot of it was
[132:55] traumatizing and, you know, got PTSD
[132:57] from it. But um yeah, it's just a lot of
[133:00] people still even at where we are right
[133:03] now in the movie, so to speak, where
[133:05] we're on the threshold of possibly
[133:06] President Trump succeeding and his team
[133:09] getting this information out there. If
[133:11] they can, you know, uh broker a way
[133:13] ahead with the elements, I'll call it
[133:14] the deep state that are that are holding
[133:17] on. And and it seems crazy like, well,
[133:20] but couldn't the White House just, you
[133:22] know, break down the door? Like what why
[133:24] is there push back all that? Well, you
[133:26] think about like MK Ultra and how
[133:28] Richard Helms told Sydney Gotautle to
[133:30] destroy the records and the only reason
[133:32] why we know of MK Ultra is uh Seymour
[133:35] Hirs, right? The New York Times story,
[133:38] there was a leak to the Times. Then uh
[133:40] Frank Church and other people got uh
[133:43] information from whistleblowers and then
[133:44] they found the financial records that
[133:46] weren't destroyed um in 1973 through 75
[133:50] and and also what they call the what's
[133:52] it called family jewels crown jewels
[133:55] where
[133:56] uh CI director Slesinger wrote down like
[134:00] all the bad stuff the CIA was doing that
[134:02] like you know we want to make sure this
[134:03] stuff doesn't come out and then there
[134:05] was like a 1964ish
[134:07] CIA inspector general report that was
[134:09] classified and clearly wasn't given to
[134:11] Congress and that's the only way reason
[134:14] we know about MK Ultra. It was
[134:15] reluctantly there was an oopsies, you
[134:18] know, and and part of this went public
[134:20] and and so I guess there's some
[134:21] historical parallels to to my journey
[134:23] and and and stuff on this issue, but and
[134:25] and once again MK Ultra like they had a
[134:28] drag CIA to they found all this other
[134:30] bad stuff, the heart attack gun,
[134:32] >> all the stuff in the church committee
[134:33] hearings and you know the
[134:35] >> operation midnight climax.
[134:37] Then there was um what's a funny name?
[134:39] I'm going to laugh about that one.
[134:40] >> That's the brothel.
[134:41] >> Was it? Oh, well
[134:43] people acid.
[134:44] >> Well, and then um you just saw there was
[134:46] a story coming out where they like
[134:48] sprayed the city of San Francisco in
[134:50] 1976. I was just out in SF Gate
[134:53] >> couple days. See how they could spread
[134:54] disease.
[134:55] >> Yeah. And then and then you had a
[134:56] mockingb bird where they had people on
[134:58] the payroll
[134:59] >> and and it's like okay that's kind of
[135:01] ethically dubious because it's domestic
[135:03] but influence foreign powers. Okay. the
[135:06] Smith Munt Act, a 1948 violation, sort
[135:08] of, you know, on and on and on. So,
[135:11] >> but I think what people really have a
[135:13] hard time comprehending is that if this
[135:15] is real and if we have been visited, why
[135:18] doesn't everyone know about it already?
[135:19] Why haven't they made themselves known?
[135:21] Why don't we why? And then there's also
[135:24] this weird thing if anybody that's
[135:26] actually experienced it like if you have
[135:28] a novel experience if you are going
[135:30] through a you know you're going through
[135:32] a national park in Utah and there's no
[135:35] one out there and then all of a sudden
[135:36] some disc shows up hovers over you lands
[135:40] some strange creatures you know come out
[135:42] of it talk to you telepathically get
[135:44] back in the disc and take off.
[135:46] >> Then you have the whole missing 411
[135:47] stuff out there too I had that guy on
[135:49] too.
[135:50] >> Clothes are folded. I don't know the
[135:51] answer to that and I think
[135:53] >> so why isn't this more pervasive? I
[135:55] would say it's reasonably pervasive, but
[135:57] we see these craft using cover,
[135:59] concealment, deception techniques such
[136:01] as signature management, right? Like
[136:02] think of the cling on bird of prey
[136:04] cloaking, right? We
[136:05] >> we have seen that and and so they're
[136:07] they're masking their signature, but
[136:10] like as Jacqu Valet will say, there's
[136:11] some sort of control system. It's like a
[136:13] show and display thing as a stimulus for
[136:16] a lot of this. And then also, oh, why
[136:18] don't they overtly interact? That gets
[136:20] into like the exopolitique of this. I
[136:22] certainly am not conversant in that yet.
[136:24] I hope to learn more as the public to
[136:27] learn more about the objectives why
[136:29] they're here why there hasn't been overt
[136:32] contact but clearly interactions with
[136:34] you know the secular nation state
[136:36] governments and well what's the
[136:39] arrangement I don't know the answer to
[136:40] that and and so there's or is it um like
[136:44] the prime directive in Star Trek right
[136:46] where the oh they're pre-warp
[136:47] civilization we observe we're interested
[136:50] here we're studying the planet but we're
[136:52] not going to overtly influence their
[136:54] development because that's unethical
[136:56] according to our uh standards of
[136:58] behavior and norms and rules of
[137:00] engagement, you know, like like it is in
[137:01] Star Trek for example.
[137:02] >> Well, also just to to avoid any sort of
[137:05] unbelievably catastrophic just upheaval
[137:10] of society, you would do it very slowly
[137:12] like it's being done like today. The way
[137:15] it's being discussed is very different
[137:16] than the way it was being discussed
[137:18] >> 20 years ago. Right. So 20 years ago is
[137:21] 2016. We hadn't had or 10 years ago was
[137:23] 2016. We hadn't had the New York Times
[137:25] story yet. The New York Times story is
[137:27] 2017. That changed everything. I think
[137:30] 20 10 years before that,
[137:32] >> you talked about this stuff. You were a
[137:34] [ __ ] idiot and a kook.
[137:36] >> This is a cottage industry. And I also
[137:38] going back to kind of the pattern of
[137:39] lifinglessness, so to speak.
[137:41] >> I think the nature of the interaction
[137:43] was more overt antiquity. So something
[137:46] changed at some point in human history
[137:48] where going back to Greek gods and you
[137:51] know the and a whatever ends up being
[137:53] true we'll find out I guess in this
[137:54] process that seems more overt they're
[137:58] like you know uh mass kind of
[138:01] interactions but then
[138:02] >> well I'm sure you've seen those ancient
[138:04] changed
[138:04] >> those ancient paintings that it looks
[138:06] like a guy sitting in a craft that has
[138:08] like fire behind it and he's flying
[138:09] through the sky
[138:10] >> like what the [ __ ] is that
[138:12] >> yeah I'm not full uh chariots of the
[138:14] gods or whatever that book but like I
[138:16] think there's probably a happy medium
[138:18] that ends up being accurate and but it
[138:20] looks at the nature of the interaction
[138:21] does that mean a different group of
[138:23] intelligences and how many of them and
[138:26] the group changed and went away and
[138:28] there's like this new generation I don't
[138:30] know the answer to that but it does seem
[138:32] if you pattern a life it um the nature
[138:34] of their show and display their
[138:36] concealment deception their their force
[138:38] presentation so to speak you know to use
[138:40] kind of military talk has changed and
[138:42] clearly um they're they're less uh
[138:47] likely to do anything major negative or
[138:50] positive All right. For whatever reason,
[138:52] >> is there a consensus as to their origin?
[138:55] Because I know that or or is it do they
[138:57] vary wildly? Like there's a like timber
[138:59] shed has talked about the ocean.
[139:01] >> There is. Yes. The we know a lot about
[139:04] that. And
[139:05] >> what do we know about that?
[139:05] >> Well, be careful because it gets into
[139:07] sensitive Navy underwater things. Um
[139:11] there's clearly some sort of base of
[139:13] operations in certain locations. Um it's
[139:16] large.
[139:18] Don't know when it got there.
[139:20] So it's large
[139:22] >> large like multiple city blocks type
[139:24] stuff.
[139:25] >> Yeah.
[139:25] >> So there's multiple city blocks
[139:27] somewhere in the bottom of the ocean.
[139:29] >> Yeah. And it's like
[139:30] >> Yeah.
[139:31] >> Do you know what about the Baltic Sea
[139:32] anomaly?
[139:34] >> Well, the Yeah. The Yeah, the there's
[139:37] there's some interesting stuff there.
[139:39] And um once again, I will allows the
[139:42] federal government to deal with that one
[139:43] in our allies and adversaries. So
[139:45] >> Okay. Yeah.
[139:46] >> Um but you did say that there's multiple
[139:48] city blocks under the ocean.
[139:51] >> Yeah. I will tell you underwater people
[139:54] I know um that come from that community,
[139:57] they're they always like, you know, the
[139:58] movie The Abyss, Dave, it's kind of a
[140:00] docu drama. And I'm like, "Holy fuck."
[140:03] You know, that movie, you know, with Ed
[140:04] Harris back in '89. And so that kind of
[140:08] gives you a sense in a pop sigh kind of
[140:11] way for people to visualize. There is
[140:14] large [ __ ] down there and it's like the
[140:17] origin is indeterminate. I'm sure we
[140:19] know a little bit more. I'm not privy to
[140:21] that. And and the way we know things and
[140:24] track that gets into sensitive national
[140:26] security stuff and um you know the
[140:28] government may have to reveal some of
[140:29] that through some sort of
[140:30] acknowledgement strategy. The way it's
[140:32] been described to you are these large
[140:34] city blocks or whatever the hell it is
[140:36] under the ocean. Is this a way point? Is
[140:38] this a stop off? Like a base for a base?
[140:41] >> Stuff comes and goes.
[140:42] >> Okay.
[140:42] >> Yeah.
[140:43] >> So, this is like where they observe and
[140:46] >> Yeah. I'm sure we've done an anal a
[140:49] behavioral analysis on it and we
[140:51] probably have figured out maybe the
[140:54] mission or whatever you want to call it.
[140:56] >> I don't know the answer to that. I I'm
[140:58] as curious as anybody honestly. So,
[141:01] >> um, one thing I wanted to talk to you
[141:02] about because it just recently started
[141:04] hitting the news, uh, or Twitter at
[141:06] least. Someone sent it to me. Um, this
[141:08] guy Matthew Brown saying that you, uh,
[141:11] tricked him in a scop into revealing
[141:14] that there's you turned him into a
[141:16] whistleblower. Do you know the story?
[141:17] >> I didn't even know Matt Brown until
[141:19] right before the 2024 hearing. I never
[141:22] met the guy while I was a, you know,
[141:24] >> I sent it to you, Jamie. I I had to
[141:26] bring it up to you because a bunch of
[141:27] people
[141:27] >> Yeah, there's like some Make sure you
[141:28] ask him about this.
[141:29] >> Oh, because I because I was at the
[141:31] Shrivever War game uh highle cell
[141:34] advisor that I I somehow made fake stuff
[141:38] and and and and the the briefing that
[141:41] that Matt says he saw, I've never seen.
[141:44] I can't evaluate the contents of that.
[141:47] And and I didn't make anything. Um I've
[141:50] never made a hazing brief on this topic.
[141:52] I made some fun briefs just to [ __ ] with
[141:54] some of my airmen back in the day. Um,
[141:56] some Star Trek related stuff and just
[141:57] for, you know,
[141:58] >> but you're aware of this, right? So,
[142:00] what is he what is he alleging?
[142:03] >> He alleges intent exposure. He was
[142:06] cleaning up the file system on a
[142:07] classified system in I think it was like
[142:10] 2018 or something like that. And, you
[142:12] know, he found this briefing. Um, once
[142:15] again, I met Matt or talked to him for
[142:17] the first time in like 2024, well after
[142:20] I left uh the intelligence community.
[142:22] So, I didn't even know he existed. And
[142:25] um unfortunately, I've never seen a
[142:27] briefing like that, so I can't evaluate
[142:29] the the contents. So, um
[142:32] >> have you communicated with him after he
[142:34] said this?
[142:35] >> Oh, oh, oh, sure. Sure. Yeah. I mean,
[142:37] just to in support making sure he has
[142:39] resources.
[142:40] >> No, but I mean after he said that you
[142:42] soped him. Have you communicated with
[142:44] the assistant?
[142:45] >> Isn't that what it says?
[142:46] >> I think that might have been people
[142:47] saying that.
[142:48] >> Some other people saying in other words,
[142:50] >> that's news to me. Uh after
[142:53] >> so that what what it is is other people
[142:55] alleging that that's how it went down.
[142:57] >> Yeah. There's a lot of theories online
[142:59] about like myself and oh, I'm being
[143:02] handled. Dude, it's just me. It's sad.
[143:06] It's just me and like my bros and like
[143:08] there's higher up people like helping
[143:10] but unfortunately like nobody's telling
[143:12] me to do X Y and Z and
[143:15] >> obviously if the president wants me
[143:17] officially involved I'm happy but like
[143:18] you know it I'm just a dude you know
[143:21] >> doing what I need to do. So yeah.
[143:23] >> Um what other weirdness of it before we
[143:26] wrap this up? What other weirdness of it
[143:27] do you think people don't know about it?
[143:30] Hm.
[143:32] You know, I think there's something to
[143:35] synchronicities
[143:37] and I don't have an answer why that
[143:40] happens. It just see like weird
[143:43] things just like happen or work out and
[143:46] and this is about as woo as I get and I
[143:49] just look at my own personal journey. um
[143:52] you know I was in like the right place
[143:53] at the right time and so many instances
[143:55] in my career to learn certain things
[143:57] that would help me later and like you
[143:58] know
[143:59] >> met certain people at the right time and
[144:02] and of course you know there's like a
[144:04] analytical bias most humans have where
[144:06] they're ascribing meaning to certain
[144:07] interactions that are actually truly
[144:09] random statistically random right
[144:11] >> but I've talked to enough people that
[144:15] say the same thing and I just there's
[144:17] something going there's a there's like a
[144:19] hidden hand part of the phenomenon that
[144:21] I can't there's like a certain Jennaqua
[144:23] I can't like point my finger on that I
[144:25] think is really interesting too but
[144:27] that's about as woo as I get I don't
[144:29] know
[144:29] >> that is the nature of the fabric of the
[144:32] universe or do you think that this has
[144:33] something to do with extraterrestrial
[144:35] >> I think that's like almost like going
[144:37] back to remote viewing because you know
[144:38] the Stargate program grill flame all the
[144:40] different names it had like that was
[144:42] adjacent to the program why do you think
[144:45] we were doing the psychic spying program
[144:46] besides competing with the Soviets and
[144:48] Chinese on the same topic is because
[144:50] That's the key unlock to some of the
[144:52] technology potentially if you could
[144:54] figure out how to it's a it's what like
[144:55] they call it like BCI brain computer
[144:57] interface but like clearly there's some
[144:59] sort of organic to tech interface and
[145:03] and it's clearly consciousness based
[145:06] >> um not to digress on your
[145:07] >> no but this is what Lazar said as well
[145:10] that there was no instruments and that
[145:12] these things controlled this with their
[145:14] mind. It depends on the class of vehicle
[145:16] and like there's like really weird [ __ ]
[145:19] that we have no idea how it works to
[145:20] like oh that kind of looks familiar.
[145:22] >> What's the weirdest of the really weird
[145:23] [ __ ]
[145:24] >> Um I mean you just have like the eggs
[145:26] and stuff. They're like usually unmanned
[145:29] >> usually and it's like is this like a
[145:31] probe? It's just it's like a [ __ ]
[145:33] egg, you know, like and um I know Jake
[145:36] Barber has talked about publicly
[145:37] recovering them, you know, and uh
[145:40] >> you know, I heard I you know, heard
[145:41] about that elsewhere, people who were
[145:43] were dealing with that. It's just kind
[145:45] of weird. It's like this amorphous
[145:46] thing. It's like the movie like Arrival,
[145:48] right? You
[145:50] >> right. That that's a great movie.
[145:51] >> Is Yeah. Is the technology like embedded
[145:54] in the skin? Like what is going on here?
[145:56] There's like no no obvious control
[145:58] surfaces like what what's going on? So,
[146:01] >> right. Um, what what kind of timeline do
[146:04] you think we're looking at in terms of
[146:06] like really changing the world?
[146:08] >> I think the the basic affirmation, the
[146:11] threshold disclosure, you know, call it
[146:13] we're not alone, we have stuff kind of
[146:15] thing. It has to happen before Trump
[146:18] leaves because I don't trust another
[146:19] president to follow through on the
[146:22] president's directive because, you know,
[146:23] it's the the the
[146:25] >> the next administration can be like,
[146:26] "We're peeling that back, baby. We're
[146:28] not touching this again." And so, of
[146:29] course,
[146:30] >> I think he has to do it before he leaves
[146:31] office. And if I were um advising the
[146:34] president and if the team's listening, I
[146:38] would do it at least 6 months before the
[146:39] election just so there's some sort of
[146:42] recovery period and kind of uh and
[146:45] whatnot. But, uh I'm just a dude
[146:47] obviously. I want it as soon as possible
[146:49] like most Americans listening to this.
[146:51] >> How do you envision that something like
[146:52] that would take place? Would they have a
[146:55] broadcast? where they show video and
[146:58] explain.
[146:58] >> That was a plan at one point for a
[147:00] previous administration is they were
[147:02] going to have like a one of those like
[147:03] government
[147:04] >> this the Bush administration with the
[147:05] how put off days.
[147:07] >> No, this was uh HW.
[147:10] >> Oh
[147:10] >> yeah. And so I'm sure the video sucked.
[147:13] It was probably has some synth wave
[147:15] government, you know, film from like the
[147:16] 1989 like, you know, and it was probably
[147:20] going to be horrible and dry, but there
[147:23] was going to be this like audiovisisual
[147:25] kind of a a companion to some sort of
[147:27] announcement. Now, I don't know all the
[147:29] the the specific details after that. Um,
[147:32] clearly there has to be a physical roll
[147:34] out for
[147:34] >> God, I hope that video exists. It's out
[147:36] there in the archive somewhere. We could
[147:38] watch it after disclosure.
[147:39] >> I know. We need to have like a throwback
[147:41] like what you know to see the old [ __ ]
[147:42] come.
[147:43] >> Well, if you think about like how long
[147:44] it's been that people have like slowly
[147:48] become more and more aware of this. It's
[147:50] it seems like a long time but our lives
[147:52] are very short.
[147:53] >> Yeah.
[147:54] >> And the the reality is if this thing
[147:56] this this phenomenon has coexisted with
[148:00] human beings and I guided us aided us in
[148:04] some way
[148:04] >> and that's why I don't think people
[148:05] should be too fearful. I mean obviously
[148:07] there's a yin and yang in the universe.
[148:09] There's malevolent, benevolent, but
[148:12] clearly there's some homeostasis going
[148:13] on right now. And there's been this
[148:16] called cohabitation, for the lack of a
[148:17] better way to describe it. And and and
[148:21] clearly nothing
[148:22] >> crazy has happened. So
[148:23] >> some of this is in conjunction with AI
[148:27] becoming sentient and that this was a
[148:28] part of the process.
[148:29] >> I
[148:31] don't know that to be a fact. However, I
[148:34] like I said earlier in the interview, I
[148:35] am fearful that AI is going to figure
[148:37] some of this [ __ ] out, whether it be
[148:40] >> tech technology stuff or um the fact
[148:44] that we're not alone just by looking at
[148:45] all the disparit databases and
[148:46] correlating data um especially if it
[148:49] gets connected to any sort of genetic
[148:51] record, medical records, sensing system.
[148:53] And I think that's a real um threat that
[148:58] if I were to advise the White House,
[148:59] they need to think about that like
[149:01] third-party unexpected disclosure
[149:03] pathway that super intell artificial
[149:05] super intelligence provides both from a
[149:08] technology risk perspective but also
[149:10] revealing some of this too and and once
[149:12] again
[149:14] uh you know that artificial siliconbased
[149:17] AI is like is that the infrastructure
[149:20] that we need to communicate to some of
[149:22] this organic intelligence too because
[149:23] it's able to learn and figure out
[149:24] modalities of communication. I don't
[149:26] know. So,
[149:28] >> it's pretty crazy.
[149:29] >> Okay. It's a lot to absorb, Dave.
[149:31] >> I know.
[149:32] >> Thank you very much for being here, man.
[149:33] I appreciate it. It's always great to
[149:34] talk to you and thank you for all your
[149:36] hard work and exposing all this stuff.
[149:39] >> I mean, I really wonder like if it
[149:40] wasn't for you doing all this, how much
[149:42] would we know?
[149:42] >> I don't know, man. I just I hope this is
[149:44] the last time I got to send it on on an
[149:47] interview. And uh it's been tough.
[149:50] Really tough. like it's been
[149:51] debilitating. I've gone through a lot,
[149:53] you know, it's been in danger and I've
[149:56] done a lot of stuff for this country
[149:57] over the years, but I'm honored to be
[150:00] that guy, I guess, and and and risk it
[150:02] all to, you know, unveil this truth
[150:04] because it really was a core secret of
[150:06] the United States. So,
[150:07] >> I certainly think it moves the needle.
[150:08] Yeah, I appreciate that. Thank you. All
[150:10] right. Bye, everybody.
