Airlines Pair Surcharges With Proxy Hedges to Double Dip on Crude

How Airlines Actually Hedge Higher Fuel Prices — Bloomberg

Bloomberg

Airlines with strong pricing power can reap windfall profits during energy spikes because passenger fuel surcharges make them structurally long oil, allowing carriers to harvest revenue gains while simultaneously cashing in on derivative hedges.

AI-assisted summary of How Airlines Actually Hedge Higher Fuel Prices — original source. Check the original for full context.

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Key ideas

  • Airlines rarely hedge physical jet fuel directly due to thin liquidity and opaque price-reporting mechanisms; instead, global carriers use Brent crude futures as a proxy, leaving them heavily exposed to volatile refining crack spreads. (10:00)
  • Fuel surcharges correlate between 75% and 88% with benchmark crude, functionally turning airlines into synthetic oil producers that can hedge by selling options strangles backed by commercial passenger pricing power. (33:28)
  • Severe derivative losses during the 2014-2015 crash and the 2020 pandemic—including over $1 billion lost at Delta—led many carriers to abandon financial hedging in favor of passing fuel costs directly to travelers. (8:15)
  • To exploit a 70-cent per gallon price disparity between home supplier Woqod and Dubai, Qatar Airways ran regular Boeing 787 tankering flights to import up to 100 metric tons of cheaper jet fuel per trip into Doha. (43:26)

Detailed notes

## Background Published by Bloomberg on October 2, 2026, via web and podcast feeds, this episode of Odd Lots features former Qatar Airways Group Treasurer David Kang breaking down the secretive mechanics of airline fuel risk management. According to the episode description, Kang explains how carriers utilize derivatives like swaps and options, why illiquid jet fuel forces airlines to hedge with proxies like Brent and heating oil, and how ticket surcharges mirror the economics of oil refineries.

## TL;DR While airlines are traditionally assumed to be purely short jet fuel, former Qatar Airways treasurer David Kang explains that carriers operate like oil refineries, utilizing liquid proxies like Brent crude and heating oil because direct jet kerosene derivative markets are thin and easily manipulated. After inheriting a $360 million paper loss, Kang realized that consumer fuel surcharges make an airline structurally long oil, allowing him to pioneer a covered short strangle strategy that generated a $130 million windfall and funded predatory fare cuts. The episode also explores why painful historical crashes in 2014 and 2020 drove many carriers to abandon derivative hedging entirely, turning instead to dynamic passenger pricing and clandestine fuel-tankering operations.

## Atmosphere & style The discussion carries the sharp, engaging vibe of an insider tell-all, pairing Joe Weisenthal and Tracy Alloway's witty, curious banter with David Kang's seasoned, trading-desk candor. Kang recounts tense executive showdowns, boardroom 'hospital passes,' and razor-thin fuel runs with dry humor and clear-eyed pragmatism. Listening feels like gaining access to a closely guarded corporate playbook, transforming what usually sounds like sterile treasury accounting into a lively narrative of high-stakes commodity trading and commercial gamesmanship.

## Bulletin - `10:00` Airlines rarely hedge physical jet fuel directly due to thin liquidity and opaque price-reporting mechanisms; instead, global carriers use Brent crude futures as a proxy, leaving them heavily exposed to volatile refining crack spreads. - `33:28` Fuel surcharges correlate between 75% and 88% with benchmark crude, functionally turning airlines into synthetic oil producers that can hedge by selling options strangles backed by commercial passenger pricing power. - `08:15` Severe derivative losses during the 2014-2015 crash and the 2020 pandemic—including over $1 billion lost at Delta—led many carriers to abandon financial hedging in favor of passing fuel costs directly to travelers. - `43:26` To exploit a 70-cent per gallon price disparity between home supplier Woqod and Dubai, Qatar Airways ran regular Boeing 787 tankering flights to import up to 100 metric tons of cheaper jet fuel per trip into Doha.

## Key takeaways - `00:00` Fuel is an airline's second-largest operating cost after labor, but its extreme volatility makes it the single most dangerous line item on the corporate balance sheet. - `03:42` Hedging combined with fuel surcharges functions as an asymmetric margin engine: carriers can lock in lower fuel expenses financially while simultaneously collecting inflated surcharges from price-tolerant passengers. - `08:15` US carriers largely abandoned derivative hedging after suffering steep cash losses during the 2014–2015 crude crash and the 2020 pandemic lockdowns, opting instead for operational pass-through pricing. - `10:00` Because jet kerosene is an illiquid market with no natural sellers other than refiners, carriers hedge with proxies like Brent crude or heating oil, exposing themselves to massive crack spread volatility. - `20:00` Published jet fuel price marks from agencies like Platts and Argus often rely on subjective assessments rather than cleared bids and offers, further driving airlines toward standardized futures contracts. - `22:04` The Singapore jet fuel market operates as an insular oligopoly dominated by major commodity trading houses and oil majors, deterring global airlines from running direct hedge books there. - `24:14` Base airfares can represent as little as 25% of the total ticket price during high-oil environments, while surcharges flow straight into operating revenue and derivative gains hit separate hedge-accounting lines. - `26:44` Qatar Airways faced uniquely elevated fuel risk: jet fuel comprised 44% of its operating costs due to cheap international labor, vastly exceeding the typical 25% to 30% industry average. - `30:00` Falling crude prices create an operational 'double whammy' when paired with economic slumps: passenger volumes drop, flights are grounded, and carriers are left holding massive paper losses on fixed-price swaps. - `31:35` An airline seat is a perishable asset comparable to retail produce; once an aircraft departs, unused seat capacity cannot be inventoried or reclaimed. - `33:28` Regression analysis revealed ticket surcharges have an 87% to 88% correlation with Brent crude, effectively making the airline's revenue department structurally long energy. - `35:54` Qatar Airways monetized this dynamic by selling short strangles: customer surcharges covered upside call risk, while reduced physical jet fuel costs offset downside put liabilities. - `40:00` A $130 million windfall generated by Kang's short strangle hedge offset a $65 million passenger revenue loss and funded a 20% fare cut that undercut Gulf rivals Emirates and Etihad. - `45:00` Qatar Airways used newly delivered Boeing 787s on training flights to tanker cheap aviation fuel out of Dubai, bypassing an inflated $3.65/gal charge from domestic state supplier Woqod. - `50:00` Regional infrastructure bottlenecks in PADD 3 and New York Harbor force the US East Coast to compete directly with Europe for waterborne diesel and distillate imports, distorting global crack spreads. - `54:38` High headline energy inflation provides airlines with consumer cover to aggressively raise airfares and surcharges without destroying passenger travel demand.

## Detailed walkthrough ### `00:00` The Secrecy of Airline Finance and the Mechanics of Fuel Costs

Airlines operate some of the most capital-intensive, operationally demanding businesses in the world, yet they maintain a legendary reputation for corporate secrecy. Tracy Alloway recalls her days as a transportation reporter, noting that two documents remained perpetual holy grails she could never get her hands on: an actual completed aircraft purchase contract detailing the steep discounts carriers negotiate off list price from manufacturers like Boeing or Airbus, and a transparent look at an airline's fuel hedging strategy. Whenever crude oil prices spike, market commentary reflexively pivots to a single question: "Did they hedge their fuel?" But as Joe Weisenthal points out, the financial discussion almost always terminates right there. If the airline hedged, market participants nod approvingly; if they didn't, the stock takes a hit—yet virtually no one outside the corporate trading desks understands how these massive financial operations are actually constructed or executed.

Fuel ranks as an airline's second-largest operational expense after labor, but it is by far its most volatile. Conventional wisdom assumes hedging is straightforward protection against rising jet fuel costs, allowing carriers to lock in an expense baseline so they are not caught flat-footed by geopolitical disruption or refining crunches. However, airlines possess a dual-lever pricing dynamic. When jet fuel surges, carriers do not simply rely on derivatives; they simultaneously raise airfares and slap fuel surcharges onto tickets. During inflationary periods and widespread supply panics, consumers are already primed by the news to accept surcharges without severe pushback. This dynamic can hand an airline an enormous margin windfall: if a carrier locks in lower fuel prices through financial hedges while simultaneously collecting elevated surcharges from travelers eager to fly, the hedge becomes an active profit engine rather than a passive safety net.

`03:42` The Hedging and Surcharge Playbook: Creating a Competitive Edge

The asymmetrical nature of fuel hedging transforms risk management into a vicious competitive battleground. If an airline has successfully locked in its fuel costs at lower levels while its direct competitors have left their exposure unhedged, the unhedged rivals face a painful dilemma: either drastically hike ticket prices to cover their fuel bill and risk losing volume, or absorb crushing operating losses. Meanwhile, the hedged airline can undercut competition, defend margins, or maintain surcharges while operating on an artificially suppressed cost base. Despite soaring airfares, passenger volumes have defied traditional economic drag, shattering TSA screening milestones and setting fresh global travel records.

```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: Airline Fuel Surge Response accDescr: The two distinct levers airlines pull when oil spikes: derivative hedging and passenger surcharges.

subgraph CostDefense["Financial Defense"] Hedge["Derivative Fuel Hedges<br/>(Swaps & Options)"] --> LockedCost["Capped Jet Fuel Expense"] end

subgraph RevenueLever["Commercial Pass-Through"] OilSpike["Jet Fuel / Crude Spike"] --> Surcharge["Fuel Surcharges & Higher Fares"] Surcharge --> Traveler["Passed to Passenger"] end

LockedCost --> MarginExpansion["Expanded Operating Margin vs Unhedged Rivals"] Traveler --> MarginExpansion ```

This hedging dynamic has historical precedent. Southwest Airlines famously pioneered an aggressive fuel hedging framework in the early 2000s that insulated the carrier for years, transforming financial treasury management into a formidable commercial advantage that other legacy carriers scrambled to emulate. Tracy reveals a personal connection—her father flew as a pilot for Southwest for decades, leaving a significant portion of her inheritance tied up in Southwest stock. As Joe attempts to swivel his monitor to show her the company's long-term stock chart, Tracy humorously protests, pleading with him not to "zoom out" on the performance, before Joe concedes that the visual isn't quite as catastrophic as anticipated.

- **Fuel's cost ranking**: Fuel is the second-largest operational expenditure for major airlines, directly behind labor costs, but exhibits vastly higher volatility. - **The dual-lever advantage**: Airlines hedge commodity prices on the financial side while preserving the ability to institute commercial fuel surcharges on the revenue side. - **The Southwest playbook**: Southwest Airlines served as the industry archetype for turning fuel hedging from simple risk mitigation into a decisive competitive weapon.

`05:48` Introducing David Kang: From Bond Desks to Qatar Airways Treasury

To untangle the opaque mechanics of aviation fuel trading, Tracy and Joe bring on David Kang, former Group Treasurer at Qatar Airways, calling in late at night from Singapore. Kang's journey into aviation risk management came through decades on institutional trading desks across global financial hubs. He started his career in Toronto trading foreign exchange before moving to New York to trade interest rates for a Canadian bank at 425 Lexington Avenue. Returning to Singapore, he joined NatWest, which dispatched him to London to trade sovereign government bonds, followed by a stint as a bond trader for a Japanese trading house that ended abruptly when he lost his position during the 1998 Asian Financial Crisis.

Faced with a career reset, Kang transitioned into commodities, spending six to seven years as a physical oil broker. In 2006, the managing director and head of commodities for Asia at JPMorgan recruited him to join their desk as a commodities structurer. From investment banking, Kang moved back to the Japanese trading house Sumitomo as head of trading for Asian commodity products, accumulating deep expertise across coal, liquefied natural gas (LNG), and refined petroleum products. By the time he joined Qatar Airways—where he served from 2011 to 2013—he brought an elite institutional trader’s understanding of commodity derivatives, crack spreads, and energy market microstructures into the corporate treasury of one of the world's most aggressive, fast-growing global airlines.

`08:15` The Role of Airline Treasurers and Why US Carriers Stopped Hedging

Kang clarifies that his formal title at Qatar Airways was Vice President of Treasury and Risk Management, an executive mandate focused squarely on protecting the entire enterprise across all financial exposures—spanning liquidity, interest rates, currencies, and energy commodities. In plain terms, the treasurer's core responsibility is to financially insulate the airline from exogenous market shocks so flight operations can function without balance-sheet contagion.

When asked why many prominent US airlines have pulled back from active fuel hedging compared to their international counterparts, Kang points to painful historical scar tissue: - **The 2014–2015 oil crash**: Crude oil prices collapsed from over $100 a barrel down to the $40s, leaving aggressively hedged US carriers locked into underwater swap contracts and paying hundreds of millions of dollars above spot fuel prices while unhedged competitors enjoyed immediate cost relief. - **The 2020 pandemic shock**: When global travel collapsed during the initial COVID-19 lockdowns, airlines found themselves paying out massive derivative settlements on fuel they never burned. Delta Air Lines, for example, took derivative losses of over $1 billion on its fuel hedges in 2020. - **Reliance on consumer pass-through**: Having been repeatedly burned by downside market moves, smaller US carriers and select legacy airlines abandoned financial derivatives altogether, opting instead to treat fuel as a purely operational expense passed directly to passengers via dynamic fare algorithms and fuel surcharges.

`10:00` Surcharges, Refinery Cracks, and Why Airlines Use Proxies

David Kang breaks down how fuel costs actually make their way into passenger fares. While tickets often list a generic "fuel surcharge," airlines never display the exact percentage breakdown to travelers. In fact, many carriers have eliminated itemized surcharges entirely, opting instead for a flat all-in ticket price: you pay the fare, you fly, and the airline absorbs or manages the fuel component behind the scenes. This dynamic explains why many U.S. domestic airlines largely abandoned active fuel hedging programs; they lacked the immense balance sheets and large-scale hedge books required to absorb bilateral derivatives risk without jeopardizing cash flow. In contrast, large international flag carriers maintain deep balance sheets, expansive revenue books, and active hedge books, enabling them to impose surcharges on tickets while simultaneously hedging consumption on the procurement side.

```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: Airline Hedging and Margin Management Workflow accDescr: Flow diagram showing how airlines mirror oil refineries by hedging crude proxies while managing jet fuel exposure and ticket surcharges.

subgraph Inputs["Upstream Procurement & Proxies"] direction TB B["Crude Proxy: ICE Brent / Heating Oil<br/>(Liquid bilateral market)"] J["Physical Jet Fuel Exposure<br/>(Illiquid / Thin trading market)"] B -. "Crack Spread Risk".-> J end

subgraph Operations["Airline Operational Scale"] direction TB C["Fleet Expansion: ~1.5 aircraft/month"] R["Network Growth: New route every 2 months"] V["Consumption: 24M–27M bbls/yr (+3M/yr)"] C & R --> V end

subgraph Outlets["Revenue & Risk Protection"] direction TB H["Hedge Book: Swaps, Collars & Exotics"] S["Passenger Revenue & Fuel Surcharges"] end

Inputs --> Operations Operations --> Outlets ```

To explain the mechanics, Kang draws a direct parallel between an airline and an oil refinery. A refinery feeds crude into a crude distillation unit (CDU) to yield a cascade of products: liquefied petroleum gas (LPG) at the top, gasoline, naphtha, middle distillates like jet kerosene and gasoil, down to heavy residual fuel oil. Refineries hedge by "selling the crack"—the spread between refined product revenues and crude input costs. Airlines face the exact same structural dynamic in reverse. At Qatar Airways, managing these dynamics required immense scale: - The carrier operated on a roughly $6.6 billion balance sheet. - Annual fuel consumption started between 24 million and 27 million barrels, growing steadily by roughly 3 million barrels each subsequent year. - Operations expanded rapidly, taking delivery of approximately 1.5 aircraft per month and launching a new international route roughly every two months. - Fuel demand was forecasted three years out based on scheduled deliveries and planned network expansions.

A central problem in aviation risk management is that the market for actual jet kerosene—such as Northwest Europe CIF Jet—is far too thin and illiquid to support large institutional hedge books. Because airlines are essentially the only natural buyers in the world for jet fuel, an airline cannot execute mega-hedges directly in jet derivatives without moving the price against itself. Instead, global carriers use liquid Brent crude futures as their trading proxy, while U.S. carriers historically turned to NYMEX heating oil. Trading liquid Brent contracts allows airlines to tap deep pools of liquidity on both sides of the market. On the physical delivery side, airlines buy jet fuel directly from major energy traders and financial institutions; Kang notes having purchased physical jet fuel directly from commodity merchants like Glencore, Mercuria, and Vitol, as well as Wall Street commodity desks including Morgan Stanley and Goldman Sachs.

---

`15:43` Plain Vanilla Swaps and Zero-Cost Collars

When asked to unpack the standard trades behind airline hedging programs, Kang walks through the core vanilla playbook. The most foundational instrument is the commodity swap, priced directly off the forward curve. A swap locks in a fixed price symmetrically: - If the market price rallies, the airline's hedge pays out, successfully capping fuel costs. - If market prices plunge, the airline suffers steep cash losses on the swap, "bleeding" capital while paying above-market rates.

Because of this symmetry, swaps are most appealing when oil trades at depressed levels in the lower double digits—around $25 to $35 a barrel—where upside exposure dominates downside risk. Once crude reaches elevated tiers around $70 to $80 a barrel, treasurers become wary of locking in high fixed costs and pivot toward option-based strategies. To protect against runaway spikes without downside cash lock-in, airlines purchase call options. However, outright calls require paying an upfront cash premium. Because many airlines are reluctant or unable to spend cash on options insurance, they construct "zero-cost collars": funding the purchase of an upside call by simultaneously selling an out-of-the-money put option, setting a defined ceiling and floor for fuel expenses with zero initial cash outlay.

---

`17:28` Target Redemption Notes, Exotics, and Spread Exposure

Beyond simple collars, Kang details how investment banks structure exotic derivatives for corporate treasuries, drawing on his experience designing structured products at J.P. Morgan. Banks frequently package fuel hedges as target redemption notes (TARNs). In these structures, an airline enters what appears on the surface to be a standard zero-cost collar, but the bank embeds an exotic component on the back end that automatically terminates or redeems the trade after a set period (such as 5 months, 1 year, or 2 years) once a cumulative profit target is reached:

| Strategy | Structure Mechanics | Payoff Profile & Use Case | |:--- |:--- |:--- | | **Commodity Swap** | Fixed-for-floating price derivative based on forward futures curve | Symmetric: locks in exact fuel costs; ideal when crude is low ($25–$35/bbl), dangerous in high markets ($70–$80/bbl). | | **Zero-Cost Collar** | Buy OTM Call + Sell OTM Put | Provides a capped cost ceiling funded entirely by surrendering downside below the put strike; requires no upfront cash. | | **Target Redemption Note (TARN)** | Vanilla collar combined with structured early-redemption feature | Allows airline to buy in-the-money calls at favorable rates in exchange for capping total duration or upside payout via auto-redemption. | | **Short Strangle** | Sell deep OTM Calls (e.g., >$120) + Sell deep OTM Puts (e.g., <$80) | Generates premium income for the airline as long as oil remains range-bound between the two strikes. |

By coupling the hedge to structured exotic features like TARNs or extendable options, dealers can offer the airline synthetic call options struck deep "inside the money" at highly advantageous entry levels. Kang also structured short strangles: selling wings above $120 per barrel and below $80 per barrel. As long as crude traded within that designated $80 to $120 corridor, the airline collected and kept the option premiums paid out by investment banks.

The hosts react with surprise, noting that target redemption notes are typically recognized in Asian wealth management as speculative retail products sold to "mom and pop" investors wagering on equities like the Kospi, rather than tools used for industrial airline fuel procurement. Kang's explanations lead directly into the broader risk inherent in using crude proxies: because carriers hedge using Brent rather than jet fuel itself, the airline remains fundamentally exposed to the fluctuating "crack spread"—the basis risk between crude oil and refined jet kerosene.

`20:00` Proxy Hedging, Refining Cracks, and the Opaque Jet Market

David Kang addresses the fundamental mismatch in airline fuel hedging: airlines physically burn Jet A-1, so naturally they are exposed to the jet fuel market and ought to hedge with jet contracts. However, the direct jet fuel derivatives market is simply far too thin. Faced with the reality that "it's better to have a hedge on than no hedge at all," carriers turn to liquid proxies. International airlines overwhelmingly default to Brent crude, while US carriers lean on West Texas Intermediate (WTI) or, more commonly, heating oil (New York Harbor ultra-low-sulfur diesel). Heating oil is chemically much closer to kerosene, resulting in a significantly tighter crack spread against jet fuel in the United States than crude provides.

The volatility of these crack spreads can reach staggering extremes. Kang recalls periods where the US heating oil crack over WTI blew out past $100—spiking to roughly $107—which translated to a massive $230 per barrel product price while crude sat at $110 and Brent hovered near $120. In Europe, gasoil cracks were commanding roughly $74 to $75 per metric ton. Tracking the actual jet fuel market in Europe is notoriously difficult because there is no true, centralized open market for it. Instead, price reporting agencies like Platts and Argus assess and publish daily marks. Kang cautions that these published figures are often completely arbitrary: agencies might see a lone bid with no accompanying offer and unilaterally mark up the price assuming an offer exists, or see an offer without a bid and arbitrarily pick a number. Because airlines and traders distrust these opacity-plagued assessments, they bypass direct jet marks entirely and peg their hedges to standardized, liquid benchmarks like ICE London gasoil or NYMEX heating oil.

```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: Airline Proxy Hedging Structure accDescr: Diagram illustrating physical jet fuel consumption mapped to benchmark derivatives due to thin underlying liquidity.

subgraph Physical["Physical Consumption"] A["Burn Jet A-1 Fuel<br/>(Illiquid / Opaque Market)"] end

subgraph Proxies["Liquid Hedging Instruments"] B["ICE Brent Crude<br/>(Global Carriers Default)"] C["NYMEX Heating Oil / WTI<br/>(US Carriers - Closer Spread)"] D["ICE London Gasoil<br/>(European Benchmark)"] end

A -.->|"Spread Risk / Tracking Error"| B A -.->|"Refining Crack Exposure"| C A -.->|"Distillate Substitute"| D ```

- **Extreme Product Spreads**: Heating oil cracks over WTI reached $107/bbl, creating an implied refined product cost of $230/bbl against a $110 WTI crude benchmark. - **European Gasoil**: Traded at roughly a $74 to $75 crack spread per metric ton. - **Pricing Agency Mechanics**: Platts and Argus assessments often lack two-way quotes; without firm resting bids or offers, published jet marks represent subjective estimates rather than cleared market transactions.

`22:04` The Illiquidity and Manipulation of Singapore Jet Fuel

Joe Weisenthal points to a terminal chart illustrating market divergence: following the outbreak of war in early February, Brent crude rose approximately 50% by March, while Singapore jet fuel surged over 100%, more than doubling. In such an environment, an airline diligently hedged in Brent would still hemorrhage cash if forced to procure physical supplies indexed to Singapore jet. Joe sheepishly admits to watching this spread on his screen "in ignorance" and asks Kang to unpack what is really happening beneath the surface.

Kang explains that the Singapore jet market is an entirely "different animal." It is tightly controlled by a small clique of major commodity trading houses and integrated oil majors. These players hold immense leverage because they know the only natural, non-negotiable buyers in the market are commercial airlines needing physical delivery. Kang dryly understates the market dynamic: "Sometimes people talk to each other... And they agree on something. And then what they agreed on happens because all of them are looking the same way and are trading the same way." Because it is an insular, subjective club rather than a transparent, competitive auction, almost no global airline attempts to run an active financial hedge book directly in Singapore jet—with the sole exception of the local incumbent carrier, Singapore Airlines.

`24:14` Ticket Pricing, Fuel Surcharges, and "Double Dipping"

Tracy Alloway asks why airlines bother hedging complicated derivatives at all if they can theoretically pass higher fuel expenses directly to passengers through elevated base fares and fuel surcharges. Kang replies that the real vulnerability appears when oil prices crash alongside economic downturns, citing 1998, 2008, 2020, and broader geopolitical conflicts like the 2026 tensions involving Iran, the US, and Israel. When crude falls during a recession, passenger demand craters, ticket prices must drop to stimulate traffic, and fuel surcharges become commercially unviable. Hedging with instruments like swaps, purchased calls, or zero-cost collars protects the carrier's baseline when prices inevitably rebound off cyclical bottoms.

When energy prices surge, savvy airlines can effectively profit from both sides of the balance sheet. A ticket operates like a refined product out of a refinery: base airfare and the fuel surcharge are bundled together, with Kang estimating that base airfare often represents as little as 25% of the total ticket cost during high-price regimes. Crucially, fuel surcharges flow quietly through operating revenues, while paper derivative gains flow directly through the hedge accounting line on the P&L. If consumer demand remains robust despite geopolitical unrest and passengers are willing to absorb exorbitant surcharges, a well-positioned airline captures elevated top-line cash flow from travelers while simultaneously booking massive trading profits on its derivative contracts—effectively making "twice as much money while you can."

- **Base Fare Breakdown**: In high-fuel environments, pure base airfare accounts for roughly 25% of the total ticket price paid by the customer, with surcharges and taxes dominating the rest. - **Accounting Separation**: Fuel surcharges sit inside operational passenger revenue, whereas financial hedges mark to market directly through the P&L/OCI, obscuring the combined windfall.

`26:44` Qatar Airways' Cost Structure and the $360 Million Hospital Pass

The urgency of fuel hedging varies wildly across the aviation industry based on cost composition. While typical global carriers see jet fuel account for 25% to 30% of operating expenses—trailing labor as their primary expense—the breakdown at Qatar Airways was fundamentally different. Because Qatar sourced flight crews and cabin personnel globally from regions like Eastern Europe and parts of Asia, its labor costs remained exceptionally low relative to Western competitors. Consequently, jet fuel accounted for a staggering 44% of Qatar Airways' total operating expenditures. Managing that massive exposure was existential, requiring Kang to design bespoke financial strategies.

Kang recounts an anecdote from his early days at the carrier, stepping into the corporate treasury role after years on commercial trading desks. Upon arrival, he inherited an existing hedge book already sitting on a $280 million mark-to-market loss. As he was still navigating corporate bureaucracy and determining how to add value, market movements drove the paper loss deeper, hitting a deficit of $360 million.

The staggering loss prompted the Chief Executive Officer to summon both Kang and Chief Financial Officer Daniel Ho into his office for an explanation. The CEO turned to Ho and demanded, "Dan, why are we down $360 million?" In response, the CFO promptly handed Kang what he describes in rugby terms as a classic "hospital pass"—lobbing the responsibility directly to the newcomer right before the tackle hits. Facing the CEO's fury, Kang had to steady the room and explain the core mechanics of treasury hedging: when oil prices drop, paper derivative losses on swaps are visually painful on the balance sheet, but they are economically offset because the airline's real-world physical fuel burn suddenly costs far less cash.

- **Qatar Airways Fuel Proportion**: 44% of total operating expenses, compared to 25–30% at conventional global carriers with higher domestic labor costs. - **Inherited Hedge Book Deficit**: Started at negative $280 million before widening to negative $360 million, prompting executive intervention.

`30:00` The Double Whammy and the CEO Mandate

During a severe global economic downturn, the airline faced what David Kang describes as a devastating "double whammy." When oil prices tumble, the underlying cause is typically that the global economy is stalling. For Qatar Airways at the time, that meant planes were flying empty or could not be filled enough to justify taking off at all. Grounding flights left unburned fuel inventories, resulting in concurrent losses: ticket revenue plummeted while the corporate hedge book was deeply in the red because fuel was locked in at higher fixed prices.

This dynamic culminated in a tense confrontation with the Qatar Airways CEO. The executive was unequivocal with Kang: "David, you're the group treasurer. I do not want to see you write any more books on the balance sheet. Do you understand?" Kang left that high-stakes encounter fully aware that traditional hedging methods were failing the company. He could no longer rely on vanilla approaches that generated massive paper losses. To survive the mandate, he had to engineer a novel, creative risk management structure where the treasury would either break even or turn a profit—with zero red ink allowed on the corporate balance sheet.

`31:35` Perishable Inventory: Airlines as Flying Grocery Stores

Reflecting on Kang's dilemma, the hosts draw an analogy between commercial aviation and running a retail grocery business. An airline consultant once noted that both industries deal in highly perishable fixed capacity. If a grocery store fails to sell ten bags of lettuce or heads of cauliflower on the day, the inventory spoils and the money is eaten completely. Similarly, an airplane seat cannot be stored in inventory; the moment the cabin door shuts and the aircraft pushes back from the gate, that seat's revenue potential for that departure vanishes forever.

While an airline's balance sheet is dominated by heavy, long-term capital assets like airplanes, its daily operational revenue relies entirely on clearing perishable capacity at the right price on a specific date. In an economic slump, this fixed-cost profile exacerbates downward pressure on margins. It highlights the acute challenge Kang faced: every trader's boss fundamentally issues the same directive—"stop losing money" and "do better"—yet an airline treasurer must execute that mandate inside a rigid, perishable operating environment.

`33:28` Discovering the Hidden Long: Fuel Surcharges and Correlation Analysis

Tasked with eliminating hedge losses, Kang drew upon his background as an oil trader, reframing the airline not merely as an end-user of jet fuel, but as an entity fundamentally similar to an oil refinery. A refinery functions simultaneously as a consumer of crude and a producer of refined fuels. Analogously, an airline consumes jet fuel to produce a physical product: a seat transporting a passenger from Point A to Point B. Kang's team began deconstructing the revenue architecture of that seat until they isolated the passenger ticket's fuel surcharge.

By running statistical regressions against market benchmarks, Kang uncovered a structural link that redefined their exposure: - Fuel surcharges on passenger tickets exhibited an approximate 75% correlation with jet fuel and an 87% to 88% correlation with Brent crude. - The airline used Brent as a liquid proxy, recognizing that the fuel surcharge was a market-facing product that made the commercial side of the business naturally long oil. - This realization enabled a dual framework: traditional *consumption hedging* (covering physical burn) paired directly with *revenue hedging* (leveraging ticket surcharges).

Armed with these figures, Kang approached the revenue management department, meeting with Senior Vice President Anko van der Werff and his right-hand man, Sven Larsen. The commercial team had never viewed their pricing algorithms through a financial trading lens. Kang had to explain that by embedding elastic fuel surcharges into customer fares, revenue management had inadvertently put the airline structurally long oil.

```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: Dual Airline Exposure Framework accDescr: Diagram showing how ticket surcharges create a long position offsetting the physical short fuel burn position.

subgraph PhysicalOps["Physical Airline Operations"] A["Need Jet Fuel to Fly Planes"] --> B["Naturally SHORT Fuel"] end

subgraph CommercialPricing["Commercial Ticket Pricing"] C["Fare with Fuel Surcharges"] --> D["75% to 88% Correlation to Brent"] D --> E["Naturally LONG Fuel"] end

subgraph TreasuryStrategy["Treasury Hedge Integration"] B & E --> F["Balanced Producer-Style Positioning"] F --> G["Sell Short Strangle with Embedded Cover"] end ```

`35:54` The Non-Naked Strangle: Producer-Style Revenue Hedging

Recognizing that the carrier was structurally short physical fuel to fly its fleet but structurally long fuel via customer ticket surcharges, Kang shifted Qatar Airways away from pure consumer hedges toward a "producer hedge" structure: selling an options strangle (simultaneously selling out-of-the-money calls and puts) to harvest premium without taking directional bets.

Crucially, this strangle was not a naked options play: - **Upside Call Protection:** When the airline sold calls, the position was covered by the ticket surcharge mechanism. If oil spiked and the sold calls were exercised against the airline, the higher ticket surcharges collected from passengers covered the liability. - **Downside Put Protection:** If oil plummeted and the sold puts moved in the money, the airline absorbed financial losses on the put options, but that cash outlay was cushioned by the drastically cheaper physical jet fuel purchased for day-to-day flight operations.

The strategy stripped away market speculation in favor of price mean reversion. As long as Brent traded within an expected price channel—at the time holding near the $100 per barrel mark over a five-month span—the airline collected the option premiums, emerging flat, taking negligible slippage, or booking a clean profit. As Kang emphasizes, corporate "hedging" is often a sanitized misnomer for managing a trade; by systematically identifying the company's natural commercial balance sheet exposures, the treasury constructed an options book that eliminated balance sheet volatility without taking outright directional risk.

- **Option Mechanics:** Short strangle (sold calls above the market, sold puts below the market). - **Core Market Assumption:** Mean reversion within an oil price band around $100/bbl over a five-month window. - **Exposure Offset:** Passenger surcharges protected against rising calls; reduced jet fuel procurement costs protected against falling puts.

`40:00` Corporate Hedging vs. "Trading" and the $130 Million Payoff

David Kang explains that at most non-financial corporations, the word "trading" immediately throws compliance into a fit. Compliance officers and auditors operate under rigid orthodoxy: consumers must buy to lock in purchase prices, while producers must sell to lock in revenues. Any deviation looks like speculative trading rather than legitimate hedging, making internal stakeholders deeply uncomfortable. Yet Kang argues that if a treasurer can find an innovative product that directly tracks the company’s underlying risk—in this case, exposure to jet fuel—they can craft asymmetric hedges that genuinely protect the business. He likens it to someone in the perishable food business discovering a preservation technique that turns a short vegetable exposure into a prolonged long position.

The financial results of Kang's unconventional hedging structure at Qatar Airways were massive. The position made roughly $130 million. In that exact same fiscal year, the airline's passenger revenue side had posted a $65 million loss; without the hedge, Kang notes he might well have lost his job. Instead, the windfall gave the commercial team room to maneuver. Historically, Qatar Airways had been a passive price-follower in the Gulf, trailing the lead of Emirates (EK) and Etihad Airways (EY). Armed with the hedging profits, Kang worked directly with his commercial counterpart, giving him the leeway to seize a first-mover advantage by cutting airfares by 20%. The aggressive pricing caught competitors off guard, packed aircraft to 80% and 90% load factors, and put "bums on seats" to lead the regional market.

- Hedge performance: +$130 million realized gain against an airline passenger revenue shortfall of -$65 million. - Strategic outcome: Enabled a 20% market-leading fare cut, boosting load factors to 80–90% ahead of Emirates and Etihad. - Organizational barrier: Treasury culture and auditors treat any selling of contracts by a consumer as impermissible speculation.

---

`43:26` Hub-and-Spoke Realities and the Woqod Price Gouging

Addressing a common misconception about Gulf carriers, the hosts ask why Middle Eastern airlines need to hedge external fuel prices at all when their home nations control massive crude reserves. Kang points out the fundamental reality of international aviation: airlines run on a hub-and-spoke model. While every flight routes through the Middle East, widebody planes flying ultra-long-haul routes across the globe can only carry so much weight at takeoff and inevitably must refuel at the destination spoke. At foreign outstations, local fuel suppliers command whatever the spot market dictates.

Furthermore, being state-owned did not guarantee Qatar Airways cheap domestic fuel. Dealing with the national oil company, Qatar Petroleum, and its domestic fuel distribution subsidiary, Woqod (Qatar Fuel), was frustratingly difficult. Woqod billed the national airline $3.65 per gallon for jet fuel at Doha. By comparison, when Qatar Airways aircraft landed in Dubai, international suppliers like Chevron were selling jet fuel off the rack for $2.95 per gallon—meaning the home-country petroleum supplier was overcharging the domestic airline by 70 cents a gallon.

```mermaid flowchart LR accTitle: Jet Fuel Price Disparity Between Doha and Dubai accDescr: Diagram illustrating Qatar Airways facing higher domestic fuel costs from Woqod in Doha compared to Chevron in Dubai.

subgraph Doha["Doha (Home Hub)"] QP["Qatar Petroleum / Woqod"] -->|"Charges $3.65 / gallon"| QA1["Qatar Airways Fleet"] end

subgraph Dubai["Dubai (Outstation)"] CHV["Chevron Aviation"] -->|"Charges $2.95 / gallon"| QA2["Qatar Airways Fleet"] end

QA2 -.->|"70¢ per gallon arbitrage"| QA1 ```

---

`45:00` Flying on Fumes: The Secret Dubai Tankering Operation

Confronted with the 70-cent price discrepancy between Doha and Dubai, Qatar Airways turned to fuel tankering using their incoming fleet of brand-new Boeing 787 Dreamliners. Officially, the airline announced that the Dreamliners were flying daily back-and-forth shuttle flights to Dubai solely for crew route-proving and pilot training. In reality, the airline was running a dedicated fuel-arbitrage shuttle.

The pilots dispatched the 787s into Dubai on absolute fumes—carrying as little as 3 to 5 tons of reserves, meaning the plane could not afford even a single holding pattern circle before landing. Once on the ground in Dubai, crews filled the 787’s tanks to maximum capacity, lifting 100 metric tons of fuel at the cheaper $2.95 rate, flew back across the Persian Gulf, and defueled into Qatar Airways' private storage depot at Doha International Airport. The on-airport tanks held between 9 and 10 million gallons, enough to supply the entire airline for a full day of emergency operations if supply ever broke down.

- Boeing 787s flew to Dubai with razor-thin reserves of 3 to 5 tons of fuel, requiring immediate, direct landings. - Each return flight brought back up to 100 tons of cheap Dubai jet fuel to unload in Doha. - Dedicated Doha airport fuel storage held 9 to 10 million gallons, equivalent to roughly one day of full network flight operations.

---

`46:42` Post-2020 Airline Scars and Passing Fuel Costs to Consumers

Assessing the late-2022 market environment where crude and jet fuel crack spreads surged alongside booming post-pandemic passenger travel, Kang observes that airline treasurers have largely retreated from aggressive consumption hedges. Carriers were severely burned during the 2020 collapse: Delta Air Lines posted over $1 billion in hedging losses, while a prominent top-tier Asian flag carrier suffered nearly $2 billion in hedging red ink when air traffic vanished and oil prices went negative.

Because of those catastrophic balance-sheet marks, contemporary treasurers are reluctant to establish forward derivative hedges and are instead relying on ticket pricing and fuel surcharges as their primary risk management tool. Kang notes that his earlier structure was effective precisely because it integrated commercial airfare dynamics directly into treasury execution. When he was scheduled to present the strategy at a major treasury conference in Singapore, the Qatar Airways CEO pulled the plug, refusing to let him reveal their competitive secret. Kang reflects that industry treasurers too often behave "like a horse with blinders," seeing risk management exclusively as the act of buying jet fuel swap contracts rather than leveraging the entire commercial balance sheet.

- Delta dropped over $1 billion on fuel hedges during the 2020 travel collapse. - A premier Asian legacy carrier recorded nearly $2 billion in fuel hedge losses in the same downturn. - Treasury strategies remain constrained by corporate auditors and sovereign wealth fund boards that view short commodity hedges as unacceptable speculation for a consumer.

---

`49:15` Refined Product Bans and Global Diesel Repercussions

Turning to the broader energy crunch and rumors surrounding potential export restrictions on refined products like diesel out of the United States, Kang views protectionist trade barriers with skepticism. Whenever politicians threaten to ban refined energy exports to suppress domestic prices, it evokes erratic political maneuvers. However, the international repercussions of curbing refined flows are severe: major global suppliers like Russia—the second-largest diesel exporter on Earth—and China have already disrupted cross-border distillate balances through quotas and conflict, leaving the international market highly vulnerable to further policy interventions.

`50:00` Distillate Dislocation: PADD 3, the East Coast Squeeze, and Global Flows

A massive volume of diesel has been stripped out of the global refining complex, leaving Europe severely short of product and driving London Gasoil (ICE gasoil) prices through the roof. At the same time, political rhetoric in the United States surrounding potential refined-product export bans created an unusual dislocation. Instead of spiking, domestic diesel and heating oil prices softened as the market priced in trapped supply. The US Gulf Coast—known as PADD 3—serves as the primary "kitchen" of the domestic refining network, producing the bulk of the nation’s refined fuels.

```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: US Gulf Coast Refined Product Export and Domestic Routing accDescr: Diagram illustrating distillate flows from the US Gulf Coast PADD 3 refineries to New York Harbor, Latin America, Europe, and Asia.

subgraph Gulf["US Gulf Coast (PADD 3)"] Refinery["Refining Complex<br/>('The Kitchen')"] end

subgraph Domestic["US Domestic"] Colonial["Colonial Pipeline / Waterborne"] NYH["New York Harbor (PADD 1)"] end

subgraph International["Export Markets"] LatAm["Latin America (Core Distillate Buyer)"] Europe["Europe / UK (Short Distillates)"] Asia["Asia: Chiba / Tokyo (via Panama Canal)"] end

Refinery --> Colonial Colonial --> NYH Refinery -->|"Primary Flow"| LatAm Refinery -->|"~500k bpd"| Europe Refinery -->|"Aframax / LR2 / Panamax"| Asia Europe -.->|"Supplemental Diesel Imports"| NYH ```

New York Harbor and the broader Atlantic Coast have limited internal pipeline capacity to bring barrels up from the Gulf Coast, functioning largely as a waterborne import market. Consequently, the East Coast regularly imports European diesel to safeguard against regional shortages. This dynamic forces the US East Coast to bid against a starved European market, giving London Gasoil an additional premium while domestic heating oil struggles with regional imbalances. While the majority of Gulf Coast heating oil flows directly to Latin America, roughly 500,000 barrels per day head to Europe—including about 100,000 barrels per day to the UK and 150,000 to the rest of the continent. Simultaneously, long-haul arbitrage trades dispatch product from the US Gulf Coast on Aframax, Long Range 2 (LR2), or Panamax tankers navigating the Panama Canal destined for industrial hubs like Chiba in Tokyo Bay.

- **PADD 3 as "The Kitchen":** The Gulf Coast refinery belt processes the lion's share of crude into distillates, but East Coast infrastructure bottlenecks turn New York Harbor into a competitive seaborne buyer. - **Transatlantic Feedback Loop:** The US East Coast relies on European diesel imports to buffer seasonal demand spikes, inadvertently tightening London Gasoil benchmarks even further. - **Export Arteries:** Beyond the baseline Latin American trade, Gulf distillates move across oceans to fuel European heating grids and Asian industrial facilities. - **Academic Reference:** David Kang’s research paper examining these structural dynamics, *"Fuel Hedging in the 21st Century: What Every Airline Can Learn About Proactively Shaping Revenue,"* is hosted on SSRN.

---

`51:45` The Reality of Corporate Hedging: Silverjet's Miles and Balancing Structural Exposure

Wrapping up the interview, the hosts reflect on the operational absurdities and strategic nuances of managing jet fuel. Tracy Alloway highlights David Kang’s earlier account of Qatar Airways "tankering" cheap fuel in aircraft bellies from Dubai back to Doha as one of the quintessential real-world aviation fuel maneuvers. It triggers her recollection of another legendary airline insolvency story: Silverjet, the defunct all-business-class luxury carrier. When creditors abruptly froze Silverjet’s fuel credit lines as the carrier collapsed, the chief executive famously kept the fleet flying by charging thousands of gallons of aviation fuel directly to his personal credit card. In an ironic twist of frequent-flyer capitalism, the executive's card was linked to British Airways, earning him a windfall of rival BA miles as his own airline sank. Joe Weisenthal points out that bootstrapping high-stakes logistics with personal credit cards is an elite transportation tradition—echoing FedEx founder Fred Smith, who famously gambled company funds in Las Vegas to cover a critical jet fuel bill in the company's early days.

Turning to corporate strategy, Joe notes the lingering stigma around the word "trader" inside corporate treasury departments. Airline executives resist being labeled speculative traders, yet their daily responsibilities require an intimate, directional understanding of markets to execute complex options collars, swaps, and basis trades. The critical distinction is that corporate treasurers are not attempting to maximize hedge-book P&L in a vacuum; their objective is to neutralize the company's existing structural balance sheet exposures. An airline is conventionally assumed to be purely "short oil"—suffering immediate margin degradation when crude prices climb. However, when an airline possesses significant ticket-pricing power and pass-through capacity, it can flip into being structurally "long oil" during rapid price run-ups, rendering a naive, static hedge counterproductive or even financially hazardous.

- **Silverjet’s Credit Arbitrage:** A luxury airline's insolvency fight ended with its founder hoarding rival British Airways frequent flyer miles charged on fuel-card emergency runs. - **FedEx Parallels:** The legendary aviation trope of founders running payroll or jet-A fuel tabs on raw personal credit cards underscores the fragile liquidity realities of operating aircraft. - **Corporate Treasury vs. Speculative Trading:** Treasury teams manage structural, enterprise-wide exposures rather than trading standalone books for absolute alpha. - **The Implicit Long:** If market conditions allow an airline to hike fuel surcharges and ticket yields faster than fuel costs rise, the company's bottom-line performance acts structurally long energy.

---

`54:38` The Bakery Analogy, Fare Elasticity, and the Resilient Travel Boom

Tracy connects the airline fuel surcharge mechanism to an earlier *Odd Lots* episode featuring an independent Chicago bakery. When egg and butter prices surged into headline news, the baker successfully raised retail pastry prices without customer pushback, because the broader public was already primed by news coverage to accept higher food costs. Airlines enjoy a nearly identical psychological umbrella: when crude oil spikes dominate cable news, travelers readily absorb elevated base fares and steep fuel surcharges without cutting back their travel budgets.

```mermaid flowchart LR accTitle: Input Cost Pass-Through Psychology accDescr: Parallel between bakery egg shock pass-through and airline fuel surcharge pass-through under headline inflation.

subgraph Media["Headline News Shock"] OilNews["Crude Oil Spikes"] EggNews["Avian Flu / Egg Spikes"] end

subgraph Consumer["Consumer Expectation"] AcceptAero["Air Travelers Expect Higher Fares"] AcceptBake["Pastry Shoppers Expect Higher Prices"] end

subgraph Firm["Revenue Outcome"] AeroYield["Airline Ticket Yields & Surcharges Expand"] BakeMargin["Bakery Margins Protected"] end

OilNews --> AcceptAero --> AeroYield EggNews --> AcceptBake --> BakeMargin ```

This dynamic demonstrates extraordinary consumer price elasticity—or rather, a dramatic willingness to absorb cost shocks—so long as the inflation is broad and visible. Joe emphasizes that despite relentless complaints about sky-high sticker prices across air travel, actual passenger volume and flight demand have broken records without missing a beat. If the airline sector serves as a real-time proxy for macroeconomic consumer health, the data reveals a running-hot economy where households stubbornly prioritize discretionary experiences and travel over budgetary caution, easily absorbing cost increases that would ordinarily trigger demand destruction.

- **The Chicago Bakery Effect:** Visible input-cost inflation (eggs, crude) gives consumer-facing businesses social cover to push through aggressive price increases that protect or even expand cash margins. - **Headline-Driven Pass-Through:** Consumers rarely push back against airline fuel surcharges when energy geopolitical crises dominate everyday headlines. - **Macro Resilience:** Surging load factors alongside record-high airfares demonstrate that high sticker prices have entirely failed to dent consumer travel behavior.

## Notable quotes > `20:00` it's better to have a hedge on than no hedge at all — David Kang

> `22:04` Sometimes people talk to each other... And they agree on something. And then what they agreed on happens because all of them are looking the same way and are trading the same way. — David Kang

> `24:14` twice as much money while you can — David Kang

> `26:44` Dan, why are we down $360 million?

> `30:00` David, you're the group treasurer. I do not want to see you write any more books on the balance sheet. Do you understand?

> `31:35` stop losing money — Joe Weisenthal

> `31:35` do better — Joe Weisenthal

> `40:00` bums on seats — David Kang

> `46:42` like a horse with blinders — David Kang

## Mentioned Odd Lots, Bloomberg, Tracy Alloway, Joe Weisenthal, David Kang, Qatar Airways, Boeing, Airbus, Southwest Airlines, NatWest, JPMorgan, Sumitomo, Delta Air Lines, Glencore, Mercuria, Vitol, Morgan Stanley, Goldman Sachs, Platts, Argus, ICE, NYMEX, Singapore Airlines, Daniel Ho, Anko van der Werff, Sven Larsen, Emirates, Etihad Airways, Qatar Petroleum, Woqod, Chevron, Boeing 787 Dreamliner, Silverjet, British Airways, FedEx, Fred Smith, SSRN

## Video description <p data-prosemirror-content-type="node" data-prosemirror-node-name="paragraph" data-prosemirror-node-block="true" data-pm-slice="1 1 []">Fuel is a huge expense for airlines, and even on a good day, jet fuel prices are pretty volatile. Throw in two major wars now effecting energy infrastructure, and fuel prices across the board are higher and higher. Airlines have long tried to manage this expense through fuel hedging, using things like swaps and options to hedge against future increases in the price of jet fuel. David Kang, former group treasurer at Qatar Airways, has firsthand experience hedging for a large carrier, and he tells us exactly how it all works. He also explains why airlines use heating oil as a proxy for jet fuel, how much they can make by raising ticket prices and fuel surcharges, and why airlines and oil refineries aren't so different.</p> <p data-prosemirror-content-type="node" data-prosemirror-node-name="paragraph" data-prosemirror-node-block="true">Read more:<br data-prosemirror-content-type="node" data-prosemirror-node-name="hardBreak" data-prosemirror-node-inline="true"><a href="https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2026-09-30/war-exposes-the-cost-of-the-west-s-retreat-from-oil-refining?utm_medium=referral&utm_source=podcast&utm_campaign=odd_lots&utm_content=article" data-prosemirror-content-type="mark" data-prosemirror-mark-name="link">War Exposes the Cost of the West&rsquo;s Retreat From Oil Refining</a><br data-prosemirror-content-type="node" data-prosemirror-node-name="hardBreak" data-prosemirror-node-inline="true"><a href="https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2026-09-30/mideast-crude-oil-flows-hit-98-of-pre-war-level-jpmorgan-says?utm_medium=referral&utm_source=podcast&utm_campaign=odd_lots&utm_content=article" data-prosemirror-content-type="mark" data-prosemirror-mark-name="link">JPMorgan and Goldman See Mideast Oil Flows Near Pre-War Levels</a></p> <p data-prosemirror-content-type="node" data-prosemirror-node-name="paragraph" data-prosemirror-node-block="true">Only <a href="http://Bloomberg.com" data-inline-card="" data-card-data="">http://Bloomberg.com</a> subscribers can get the Odd Lots newsletter in their inbox each week, plus unlimited access to the site and app. Subscribe at&nbsp; <a href="https://www.bloomberg.com/subscriptions/oddlots?in_source=oddlotspodcast" data-prosemirror-content-type="mark" data-prosemirror-mark-name="link">bloomberg.com/subscriptions/oddlots</a></p> <p data-prosemirror-content-type="node" data-prosemirror-node-name="paragraph" data-prosemirror-node-block="true"><a href="http://bloomberg.com/subscriptions/oddlots" data-prosemirror-content-type="mark" data-prosemirror-mark-name="link">Subscribe to the Odd Lots Newsletter</a><br data-prosemirror-content-type="node" data-prosemirror-node-name="hardBreak" data-prosemirror-node-inline="true"><strong data-prosemirror-content-type="mark" data-prosemirror-mark-name="strong">Join the conversation:</strong> <a href="https://discord.gg/oddlots" data-prosemirror-content-type="mark" data-prosemirror-mark-name="link">discord.gg/oddlots</a></p><p>See <a href="https://omnystudio.com/listener">omnystudio.com/listener</a> for privacy information.</p>

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中文简报

航司结合附加费与替代对冲从原油双重获益 拥有强大定价权的航空公司可以在能源价格飙升期间获取暴利,因为客运燃油附加费使其在结构上做多石油,从而使承运商在斩获营收增长的同时从衍生品对冲中套现。 尽管传统观点认为航空公司纯粹是航空煤油的空头,但前Qatar Airways司库David Kang解释称,承运商的运作方式类似于炼油厂,由于直接的航空煤油衍生品市场流动性薄弱且易受操纵,它们采用Brent原油和取暖油等高流动性替代标的。在接手了3.6亿美元的账面亏损后,Kang意识到消费者燃油附加费使航空公司在结构上做多石油,这启发他开创了备兑卖出宽跨式期权策略,创造了1.3亿美元的意外收益,并为掠夺性降价提供了资金。该节目还探讨了为何2014年和2020年惨痛的历史性暴跌促使许多承运商完全放弃衍生品对冲,转而依赖动态客运定价和隐秘的飞机带油转运操作。 由于流动性匮乏和价格报告机制不透明,航空公司很少直接对冲实物航空煤油;相反,全球承运商使用Brent原油期货作为替代,这使它们极易暴露于剧烈波动的炼油裂解价差风险中。 (10:00) 燃油附加费与基准原油的相关性在75%至88%之间,这在功能上将航空公司变成了合成石油生产商,使其能够依托商业客运定价权,通过卖出期权宽跨式组合进行对冲。 (33:28) 2014-2015年暴跌和2020年疫情期间严重的衍生品亏损(包括Delta损失超过10亿美元)促使许多承运商放弃金融对冲,转而将燃油成本直接转嫁给旅客。 (8:15) 为利用本土供应商Woqod与迪拜之间每加仑70美分的价差,Qatar Airways定期执飞波音787带油航班,每趟航程向多哈运入多达100公吨更便宜的航空燃油。 (43:26)

Reading summary

Former Qatar Airways treasurer David Kang reveals that airline fuel hedging is far from simple downside insurance; it functions as an asymmetric structural operation where thin jet fuel markets force reliance on crude proxies, and ticket surcharges can turn carriers structurally long oil. Proxy Hedging and Underlying Crack Spread Risks (20:00) Airlines physically burn Jet A-1 fuel, but the direct jet fuel derivatives market is too thin and illiquid to support massive corporate hedge books without moving prices against the buyer. To build liquidity, international airlines hedge using ICE Brent crude futures, while US carriers historically leaned on NYMEX heating oil or WTI. Heating oil shares a closer distillate profile with jet fuel, providing a tighter spread than crude, but proxy hedging leaves carriers fundamentally exposed to volatile refining crack spreads. Kang notes that crack spreads can diverge violently from underlying crude. Heating oil cracks over WTI have historically widened past $100 per barrel, pushing implied refined fuel costs to $230 per barrel against $110 crude. Furthermore, localized physical markets such as Singapore jet fuel are tightly controlled by integrated oil majors and commodity trading houses. This dynamic creates an insular pricing environment where paper Brent hedges can fail to protect against severe regional jet price spikes. Why US Airlines Abandoned Derivative Fuel Hedges (8:15) While market commentary reflexively praises hedged airlines during oil spikes, historical market crashes have severely penalized derivative programs. During the 2014–2015 crude collapse and the 2020 pandemic shock, aggressively hedged carriers were trapped in underwater swaps, paying out hundreds of millions of dollars for fuel they never burned. In 2020 alone, Delta Air Lines absorbed over $1 billion in hedging losses, while a prominent Asian flag carrier suffered nearly $2 billion. These repeated balance-sheet shocks prompted many US airlines to dismantle their derivative books entirely. Lacking the multi-billion-dollar balance sheets necessary to absorb bilateral derivative margin calls and collateral volatility, domestic carriers increasingly treat fuel as a purely operational expense passed directly to consumers through dynamic fare algorithms and ticket surcharges. Turning Fuel Surcharges Into an Asset (33:28) During his tenure at Qatar Airways, Kang analyzed the airline's revenue architecture and realized that ticket pricing behaves much like the refined output of an oil refinery. Statistical regressions showed that passenger fuel surcharges held an approximate 75% correlation with jet fuel and an 87% to 88% correlation with Brent crude. Because travelers readily accept surcharges when energy geopolitical crises dominate headline news, customer pricing mechanics make the airline structurally long oil. This structural exposure creates an asymmetric profit lever. If an airline secures derivative hedges at low cost while collecting elevated passenger surcharges, the hedge transforms into a cash windfall, allowing the company to profit simultaneously from operating revenues and treasury trading lines. Conversely, the vulnerability appears during broad recessions: when oil crashes alongside passenger demand, surcharges become unviable, planes fly empty, and fixed-price hedges bleed corporate cash. Covered Strangles and Cross-Border Fuel Tankering (35:54) At Qatar Airways, fuel accounted for 44% of total operating expenses—far higher than the 25% to 30% typical at Western legacy carriers due to Qatar's lower foreign labor costs. After inheriting an underwater hedge book sitting on a $360 million paper deficit and receiving an executive directive to eliminate red ink, Kang abandoned traditional swaps in favor of a covered short options strangle around an expected $100 per barrel Brent corridor. The airline harvested options premiums by selling calls covered by commercial ticket surcharges and selling puts cushioned by reduced physical fuel procurement expenses, ultimately generating roughly $130 million in treasury profit that offset a $65 million commercial revenue shortfall. Risk management also required physical operational arbitrage. Faced with domestic fuel supplier Woqod charging $3.65 per gallon at Doha while Chevron charged $2.95 in Dubai, Qatar Airways utilized brand-new Boeing 787s for physical fuel tankering. Under the public guise of crew training flights, aircraft were dispatched to Dubai on minimal fuel reserves, fueled to maximum capacity with 100 metric tons of cheaper product, and flown back to Doha to defuel into a dedicated 9-to-10-million-gallon airport storage depot. Real-world airline risk management demonstrates that financial fuel hedging cannot be separated from corporate balance sheets, commercial passenger pricing power, and physical supply logistics. As post-2020 treasurers increasingly rely on passenger fare elasticity over complex paper derivatives, the line between passive risk mitigation and active commercial positioning remains the defining variable in airline profitability.

Detailed notes — zh

## Background 本期节目由彭博社(Bloomberg)旗下播客《Odd Lots》于 2026 年 10 月 2 日在播客及网络平台发布。根据节目介绍,燃油是航空公司的核心巨额支出,在能源基础设施受地缘冲突冲击的背景下,前卡塔尔航空(Qatar Airways)集团财资与风险管理副总裁 David Kang 结合一线操盘经验,深入解析了航空公司如何利用掉期、期权以及取暖油替代标的进行燃油对冲,并阐述了航司通过调价与征收燃油附加费转嫁成本的商业逻辑。 ## TL;DR 节目深入揭示了航空业极为隐秘的燃油对冲与客票定价协同机制。由于航空煤油现货市场流动性匮乏且常年受贸易巨头操纵,航企往往被迫选择布伦特原油或取暖油进行代理对冲,但必须承担极端行情下裂解价差失控的巨大基差风险。嘉宾 David Kang 详述了在卡塔尔航空任职期间遭遇 3.6 亿美元账面浮亏及管理层最后通牒的危机,分享了他如何跳脱出单边买油防涨的“消耗对冲”思维,将客票里的燃油附加费定义为原油多头敞口,并创新构建卖出宽跨式期权(Short Strangle)策略狂揽 1.3 亿美元利润、反哺客票价格战的经典战役。此外,对话还曝光了航司利用波音 787 客机在迪拜与多哈之间秘密“拉油套利”以规避本国高昂航油垄断定价的行业内幕,并探讨了后疫情时代航司更依赖票价转嫁而非衍生品对冲的行业新现实。 ## Atmosphere & style 对谈整体洋溢着金融内幕解密特有的幽默与敏锐,主持人的行业记者视角与专业提问,精准诱导出了嘉宾极具穿透力的行业爆料。作为横跨华尔街交易台与航司核心高管层的资深操盘手,David Kang 的讲述毫无官腔、辛辣生动,将面对 CEO 问责和高管职场“甩锅传球”的窒息压迫感还原得淋漓尽致。整场对话既有抽丝剥茧拆解结构化衍生品的硬核理性,又穿插着航司利用客机“靠油烟飞行”跨境拉油、CEO 刷爆个人信用卡买航油等荒诞奇闻,听感紧凑跌宕且极具启发性。 ## Bulletin - `08:00` 美系航司在2014-2015年油价暴跌及2020年疫情冲击中屡遭数十亿美元的对冲巨亏后,已普遍退出复杂金融衍生品对冲,转向直接通过燃油附加费和票价将油价波动全额转嫁给乘客。 - `20:00` 由于航空煤油现货及衍生品市场流动性极差且易受寡头贸易商操控,航企不得不退而求其次,选用布伦特原油或取暖油作为代理标的,但这在极端行情下面临裂解价差失控的巨大基差风险。 - `34:20` 燃油附加费与布伦特原油价格呈现约75%的高相关性,证明航司在客票端天然“做多原油”;利用客票提价覆盖看涨期权亏损、现货降价弥补看跌期权损失的宽跨式套利,曾为卡塔尔航空创收1.3亿美元并支撑其降价20%发起价格战。 - `44:37` 中东产油国航司无法享受本土廉价燃油,卡塔尔航空在多哈采购本国国家石油公司航油的价格(3.65美元/加仑)甚至比迪拜(2.95美元/加仑)高出70美分,曾秘密调动波音787客机执行多哈至迪拜的“空中转运拉油”以储备低价燃油。 ## Key takeaways - `00:00` 航空公司在油价暴涨期具有“双重获利”套利空间:既能享受提前锁定低价燃油的对冲红利,又能顺应公众通胀预期顺势开征高额燃油附加费并上调票价。 - `08:00` 美系航司在经历历史暴跌与2020年负油价期间的惨痛爆仓后,风险承受力下降,基本放弃了单边对冲,转向以票价顺价为主的经营策略。 - `10:00` 航司与炼油厂商业模式高度相似:炼厂对冲裂解价差(卖成品/买原油),而航司通过买入原油衍生品与收取机票燃油附加费来支撑下游服务运营。 - `20:00` 航空煤油(Jet A-1)衍生品市场极度缺乏流动性且报价主观,航司被迫使用布伦特原油或取暖油做代理对冲,在极端行情下会承受裂解价差失控的基差风险。 - `22:00` 新加坡航煤市场交易高度集中于少数大宗商品贸易商与国际石油巨头,由于终端买家单一且缺乏双边流动性,价格易受操纵,绝大多数航企均回避在该市场直接交易。 - `24:10` 在低油价和全球经济萧条期,由于客票需求萎缩无法加收附加费,对冲是保全现金流的关键;而在繁荣期,对冲盈利与附加费则产生顺周期的双重利润放大效应。 - `26:40` 卡塔尔航空的燃油开支占总运营成本高达44%,远超行业通常的25%-30%,主因是其机组乘务多招募自东欧和亚洲且基地位于多哈,极低的人工成本基数放大了燃油敞口的重要性。 - `30:00` 油价下行周期中航司会面临“双重打击”:高位套保账本浮亏累累,同时全球经济萎靡导致客座率暴跌、计划航油未消耗,进而造成客票收入与衍生品双输。 - `32:15` 客舱座位的“易腐性”要求航司在飞机起飞前必须出清运力,这一特征促使财务团队借鉴炼厂思路,将燃油附加费视为航司向旅客销售的大宗商品联动产品。 - `34:20` 航司在底层具备双重风险底色:实体运营消耗航油使其天然“做空燃油”,而客票燃油附加费联动上涨使其在收入端天然“做多燃油”。 - `36:10` 卡塔尔航空通过卖出宽跨式期权构建了无裸露对冲:油价暴涨时客票附加费增厚平抑看涨期权亏损,暴跌体现为现货省钱冲抵看跌期权亏损,在均值回归行情中锁定净收益。 - `40:00` 企业合规往往机械地将对冲限定为单向成本锁定,并将其他金融操作扣上“投机交易”的帽子,阻碍了司库发掘企业自然交易敞口并进行结构性创新的空间。 - `41:18` 卡塔尔航空当年1.3亿美元的对冲盈利有效弥补了客运端6500万美元的亏损,并为商业部门下调票价20%发起价格战、抢占80%-90%客座率提供了安全垫。 - `43:24` 枢纽-辐射网络决定了国际航司必须在海外站点按当地市价加油,加之本国国营油企可能开出高溢价,中东产油国航司并不能自然享有廉价燃油红利。 - `47:11` 2020年巨亏后全球多数航司已放弃复杂的消耗量对冲,转而将客票动态顺价作为终极风控武器,利用公众在能源通胀新闻下的提价心理承受力转嫁全部成本。 ## Detailed walkthrough ### `00:00` 航空业神秘的燃油对冲与票价迷思 在金融市场上,每当原油价格大幅飙升,投资者和媒体最常提及的词汇之一便是航空公司的“燃油对冲”(fuel hedging)。然而,日常讨论往往仅停留在极浅的层面——大家只要听到某家航司“做了对冲”,便觉得高枕无忧;听到“没做对冲”,就认定其股价必跌无疑。实际运作中,航司的企业端存在着规模庞大却极少曝光的交易活动。作为曾担任交通线记者的观察者,Tracy 提到航空业向来极其隐秘且行事古怪,有两个谜题是外界极难窥探全貌的:第一是包含真实商业折扣的完整飞机采购合同(波音或空客发布的订单通常只列出毫无参考价值的目录标价);第二便是航空公司燃油对冲的具体实操策略。 燃油通常是航司仅次于人工薪酬的第二大成本,且因其极高的市场波动性,成为对利润影响最剧烈的变量。普通人常常直观地认为对冲仅仅是航司为了防止航空煤油涨价而提前锁定成本。但在现实经营中,航司手里还握着另一根强有力的杠杆——提高基础票价或加收燃油附加费(fuel surcharges)。这就引发了一种奇特的商业套利空间:航司如果提前锁定了较低的燃油价格,随后油价因短缺或地缘危机飙升,航司完全可以在享受低成本对冲红利的同时,跟随行业大流向乘客征收高昂的燃油附加费。因为当原油暴涨的新闻铺天盖地时,消费者对于账单上多出来的附加费往往毫无抵抗力。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 航空燃油对冲与定价协同机制 accDescr: 展示当航司进行燃油对冲后,在油价飙升期如何通过对冲保护与加收附加费形成双重收益 subgraph CostSide["成本端:金融对冲"] A["油价平稳期进行燃油对冲"] --> B["油价飙升:锁定低成本入账"] end subgraph RevenueSide["收入端:市场溢价"] C["地缘危机引发原油暴涨"] --> D["顺势加收燃油附加费 / 提高票价"] end CostSide --> E["利润空间急剧扩张"] RevenueSide --> E E --> F["对未对冲的竞争对手形成降维打击"] ``` ### `05:00` 嘉宾背景:横跨利率、大宗商品与卡塔尔航空的“能源人” 随着全球旅行需求报复性反弹,无论是 TSA 安检人数还是全球航班量都在频频刷新历史纪录,航司对冲的成败直接决定了其竞争优势。在行业历史上,西南航空(Southwest Airlines)正是凭借极具前瞻性的燃油对冲策略一举奠定长期成本优势并引发全行业效仿(尽管后续效仿者的成果参差不齐)。 本期节目的核心嘉宾 David Kang 曾任卡塔尔航空(Qatar Airways)集团财资与风险管理副总裁(VP Treasury and Risk Management),也是一位在能源金融领域深耕数十年的交易专家。他在新加坡深夜连线,回顾了自己独特的职业履历: - 早年在多伦多做外汇交易,在纽约(列克星敦大道 425 号的一家加拿大银行)做利率交易; - 随后回到新加坡加入国民西敏寺银行(NatWest),被派往伦敦销售政府债券,后进入一家日本商社担任债券交易员; - 在 1998 年亚洲金融危机中失业后,转行做了六七年原油经纪人; - 2006 年受摩根大通(JPMorgan)大宗商品业务负责人的老友邀请,加入其亚洲交易台转型为结构化产品设计师(structurer); - 此后加盟住友商事(Sumitomo)担任亚洲产品交易主管,并先后涉足煤炭与 LNG(液化天然气)领域; - 2011 年至 2013 年底(近三年时间)出任卡塔尔航空集团财资与风险管理副总裁,负责全公司的资金运作与金融风险防范。 ### `08:00` 美系航司为何普遍退出对冲?惨痛的亏损教训 当被问及当前市场上究竟有哪些航司还在坚守对冲时,David 揭示了美系航司与全球其他航司的分野。许多美系承运人近年来在对冲上的活跃度大幅下降,根本原因在于他们在历史上“被狠狠上了一课”: - **历史爆仓与巨亏**:美系航司在 2014 年至 2015 年油价暴跌期间因错误的衍生品单边锁定遭受惨痛反噬;而在 2020 年疫情暴发导致需求归零、原油跌入负值时,达美航空(Delta Air Lines)等巨头再度录得超过十亿美元的对冲亏损。 - **转向转嫁策略**:数次重创后,大量美国本土航司(尤其是中小型航司)索性彻底放弃复杂的金融衍生品博弈,转而采取最为简单的经营策略——把全部油价风险直接打包进燃油附加费或票价中,全额转嫁给终端乘客。 ### `10:00` 燃油附加费、炼厂逻辑与对冲标的选择 机票价格中通常隐藏着燃油附加费,但旅客在购票时几乎看不到具体的百分比,票面上往往只标注一笔燃油附加费,甚至有些航司干脆取消了这一细分条目,直接报出总票价:"付钱就能飞,无需操心燃油。"这种定价机制将燃油波动的风险完全留给了航司。许多美国航司由于资产负债表规模或风险承受能力有限,退出了大规模套期保值(Hedging);而大型国际全服务航司不仅资产负债表雄厚,拥有庞大的对冲盘口(Hedge Book),还坐拥巨大的营收体量(Revenue Book),因此能够在向旅客收取附加费的同时,在燃油消费端执行衍生品对冲。 航司的商业逻辑与炼油厂(Refinery)有着惊人的相似之处。炼油厂购入原油,送入常压蒸馏装置(CDU),分馏出液化石油气(LPG)、汽油、石脑油(Naphtha)、中间馏分油(如航空煤油 Jet Kerosene 和柴油/轻循环油 Gas Oil)以及重质渣油。炼厂的核心交易是对冲裂解价差(Crack Spread),即产出品与原油原料之间的差价;它们卖出成品油锁定收入(生产商对冲/Revenue Hedging),同时买入原油原料控制成本。航司同样是在采购巨额的原油衍生品来支撑下游服务。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 炼油厂与航空公司对冲模式对比 accDescr: 展示原油蒸馏后产生的各种产品,以及炼厂与航空公司如何分别对冲裂解价差与燃油成本。 subgraph Refinery["炼油厂业务模式"] A["原油输入 (Crude Input)"] --> B["常压蒸馏装置 (CDU)"] B --> C["轻质/中间馏分: LPG / 汽油 / 石脑油 / 航煤 / 柴油"] C --> D["锁定裂解价差 (Crack Spread): 卖出成品 + 买入原油"] end subgraph Airline["航空公司对冲模式"] E["航线燃油消费需求"] --> F["使用替代品对冲 (布伦特原油 / 取暖油)"] F --> G["动态匹配: 衍生品对冲 + 动态机票燃油附加费"] end ``` 在实际操作中,对冲计划需要高度结合机队扩张与航线网络规划。以当时资产负债表规模达66亿美元的航司为例,第一年的耗油量在2400万到2700万桶之间,随后每年递增数百万桶。由于航司当时以每月接收1.5架新飞机的速度扩张,且每两个月就开通一条新航线,未来三年的消耗量可以精确推算,因此对冲期限通常直接展望到三年后。 在标的选择上,航司无法直接大规模交易航空煤油。西北欧等区域的到岸航煤(CIF Jet)现货与衍生品市场容量过小、流动性极度匮乏,如果直接入场交易会产生巨大的滑点。因此,国际大型航司普遍选择流动性极佳的布伦特原油(Brent)作为替代品(Proxy),而美国航司则多用取暖油(Heating Oil)作为替代品。在布伦特原油市场上,多空双方交易对手密集;而在航煤市场上,航司往往是唯一的终端买家,面对的是炼厂、大宗商品贸易巨头(如嘉能可 Glencore、摩科瑞 Mercuria、维多 Vitol)以及华尔街投行(如摩根士丹利 Morgan Stanley、高盛 Goldman Sachs)等实体。 - 航司三年期消耗量预测以每月接收1.5架客机、每两个月新增一条航线的运营节奏为基础。 - 航司不仅在金融市场与摩根士丹利、高盛交易衍生品,还曾直接从这类华尔街投行处采购全球各机场网点的实物航空煤油。 ### `15:00` 从掉期、领子期权到奇异衍生品对冲结构 航司进行燃油对冲的基础工具有三类:掉期合约(Swap)、期权(Option)以及零成本领子期权(Zero-Cost Collar)。掉期合约由期货市场派生而来,其价格直接反映远期曲线。买入掉期是完全对称的双向敞口:如果油价飙升,航司锁定了成本,表现亮眼;但如果油价大幅下跌,航司就必须承担昂贵的固定差价损失("You bleed")。因此,掉期最适合在油价处于低双位数区间(例如25至35美元/桶)时建仓。当油价上涨至70到80美元以上的高位时,市场参与者开始担忧高油价能否维持,单向掉期的下行风险过大,航司转而倾向于购买看涨期权(Call Option)作为保险。 然而,购买看涨期权需要支付真金白银的权利金(Premium)。部分航司不愿承担这笔现金支出,便通过卖出看跌期权(Put Option)收取的权利金来补贴买入看涨期权的成本,从而构建出零成本领子期权。 ```mermaid flowchart LR accTitle: 零成本领子期权与目标赎回票据结构 accDescr: 展示零成本领子期权与投行通过目标赎回票据嵌入奇异期权的对冲流程。 subgraph Vanilla["普通端 (航司端)"] H["买入看涨期权 (封顶油价风险)"] --- I["卖出看跌期权 (出让低价收益)"] I --> J["构建零成本领子期权 (Zero-Cost Collar)"] end subgraph Exotic["奇异衍生品端 (银行/对冲架构)"] J --> K["目标赎回票据 (TARN) / 结构化票据"] K --> L["卖出宽跨式期权 (卖出 >$120 看涨 / 卖出 <$80 看跌)"] L --> M["赚取两端期权费补贴价内行权"] end ``` 在投行(如摩根大通 J.P. Morgan)负责设计衍生品时,结构会进一步复杂化,演变为结构化产品——目标赎回票据(Target Redemption Note, 简称 TARN)。投行在向航司提供对冲时,表面上呈现的是一个普通的零成本领子期权,但在底层资产包中嵌入了奇异衍生品(Exotic): - 票据设置预定的赎回触发机制(如5个月、1年或2年到期自动赎回)。 - 投行通过引入可展期结构(Extendables)或卖出宽跨式期权(Strangle)等奇异结构,卖出两翼极端的期权(例如卖出行权价高于120美元的虚值看涨期权,同时卖出行权价低于80美元的虚值看跌期权)。 - 只要油价在80至120美元的预设区间内宽幅震荡,底层结构就能赚取丰厚的期权费。投行以此为补贴,为航司提供更优厚的执行价格,甚至让航司以极低的成本买到具有更强保护力的价内(In-the-Money)看涨期权。 这类复杂的结构化票据以往在亚洲零售市场多作为理财产品卖给散户(用于押注韩国综合股价指数 KOSPI 等大盘的震荡走势),但在大宗商品企业对冲中,它被金融机构巧妙改造成了降低航司对冲现金流成本的复杂工具。这种操作也自然引出了核心问题:既然航司使用布伦特原油或取暖油而非航煤来构建上述复杂的掉期与期权结构,航司势必将承担航煤与原油之间不断波动的基差风险(Basis Risk)。 ### `20:00` 航空煤油市场的流动性困境与替代对冲工具的裂解价差 航空公司的核心消耗品是航空煤油(Jet A-1),按常理应直接在航煤市场上对冲,但现实中航煤现货及衍生品市场极其冷清、流动性匮乏。正所谓“有对冲总比裸奔好”,航空公司不得不退而求其次,选用更具流动性的替代品种。绝大多数国际航企普遍采用布伦特原油(Brent)作为基准,美国部分航空公司会参考 WTI 原油,但更多航企选择取暖油(Heating Oil),因为在美国市场,航煤与取暖油之间的价差通常比原油更为紧密。 然而,极端行情下这种代理对冲(Proxy Hedging)会暴露出巨大的基差风险。当时取暖油相较于 WTI 的裂解价差(Crack Spread)一度冲破 100 美元大关,飙升至惊人的 107 美元/桶,折算下来成品油价格高达每桶 230 美元,而原油交易价仅在 110 美元左右(布伦特原油在 120 美元附近)。在欧洲,柴油/粗柴油(Gas Oil)的裂解价差也达到了每公吨 74 至 75 美元。更棘手的是,欧洲的航煤实际市场几乎无法精准锚定,因为缺乏真正公开透明的交易市场;Argus 或 Platts 等行业报价机构虽然会公布参考价,但这些数字往往在没有卖单(Offer)仅有买单(Bid)时被主观拉高,或在有卖单无买单时凭空拟定估值,极其随意。这种机制导致业内对权威机构的航煤预测缺乏信任,转而使用伦敦柴油或美国取暖油进行风控。 - **核心对冲标的选择**:国际航空公司首选布伦特原油(流动性最好);美系航空公司选用 WTI 原油或取暖油(价差贴合度更高)。 - **极端裂解价差记录**:取暖油对 WTI 裂解价差突破 100 美元/桶,峰值达 107 美元/桶;成品油价格达 230 美元/桶,远超原油的 110-120 美元/桶。 - **现货基准报价缺陷**:普氏(Platts)和阿格斯(Argus)等能源指数缺乏实际双边报价盘,经常在买卖盘单边缺失的情况下由评估师主观“推定”数字,难以反映真实成交。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 航空燃油对冲标的选择与流动性困境 accDescr: 展示航空公司在直接对冲航煤与寻找高流动性替代标的之间的权衡与风险 subgraph DirectRisk["直接对冲困境 (航煤 Jet A-1)"] A["航煤现货市场极薄/缺乏流动性"] --> B["机构报价主观且脱离真实成交"] B --> C["难以承载大型航企对冲规模"] end subgraph Proxies["主流替代对冲工具"] D["布伦特原油 (Brent) - 全球通用基准"] E["取暖油 (Heating Oil) - 美系航企常用"] F["伦敦柴油 (London Gas Oil) - 欧洲常用"] end subgraph BasisRisk["衍生风险"] Proxies --> G["裂解价差失控 (Crack Spread Blowout)"] G --> H["原油对冲有效,航煤端仍遭受巨额裂解损失"] end ``` ### `22:00` 新加坡航煤市场的寡头博弈与失真图表 Joe Weisenthal 在彭博终端上调出一张对比图表:若以俄乌冲突爆发前的 2022 年 2 月初为基准,到 3 月份布伦特原油上涨了 50%,但新加坡航煤价格却暴涨超过 100%(直接翻倍)。这就意味着,一家严格按照布伦特原油进行完美对冲的亚洲航企,只要在新加坡航煤现货市场提油,在 3 月至 5 月中旬依然会因裂解价差失控而蒙受巨额亏损。Joe 好奇地询问,业内平时反复紧盯的这套新加坡航煤曲线到底有没有参考价值。 面对主持人的提问和插科打诨,David 揭示了新加坡航煤市场的残酷真相:这是一个完全不同维度的“怪兽”。该市场被少数特定的大型大宗商品贸易商与国际石油巨头牢牢控盘,他们心知肚明这个品种唯一的终端买家就是各家航空公司。“说得委婉一点,有时候人们是会私下串通通气的。”贸易巨头们拥有共同的持仓方向与交易意图,只要彼此达成某种默契,市场走势就会完全按照他们的意志演进。正因如此,新加坡航煤市场高度主观且被严重操纵,除了新加坡本土的主导航司(新加坡航空)会在该市场进行部分直接对冲外,其他绝大多数航空公司都会避开这个雷区,拒绝在此交易衍生品。 ### `24:10` 燃油附加费、票价转嫁与对冲机制的顺周期放大效应 既然航司可以通过上调基础票价或加征燃油附加费将成本转嫁给旅客,为何还要费尽心思在金融市场上做对冲?David 剖析了这两种手段在不同经济周期下的本质差异。对冲的核心价值恰恰体现在油价处于低位之时:当油价暴跌时,通常伴随着全球经济萧条(例如 1998 年亚洲金融危机、2008 年次贷危机、2020 年疫情暴发),此时航企根本无法向旅客加收燃油附加费,且由于需求萎缩,机票裸票价格也必须同步下调,整个营收端极度脆弱。通过掉期(Swaps)、看涨期权(Calls)或零成本项圈期权(Zero-Cost Collars),航企能将燃油成本锁定在极低水平,防范未来油价反弹。 而当原油与通胀共振上行、经济复苏且出行需求强劲时,对冲与附加费则会形成强劲的顺周期盈利合力。燃油附加费并不计入标准燃油成本科目,而对冲收益却能直接在损益表(P&L)中确认收益。如果航企在低谷期锁定了廉价的多头仓位,随后市场持续走高,旅客完全不在意票价里包含的高额燃油附加费,航司既能坐收实打实的机票附加溢价,又能在财务报表上确认巨大的衍生品盈利,“相当于赚了两倍的钱”。David 指出,航空公司的运作模式其实与炼油厂如出一辙——机票就是最终提炼出的成品,目前因为高昂的燃油附加费,纯粹的基础票价在总票价中的占比甚至已经压缩到了仅有 25% 左右。 - **低油价周期的被动性**:全球需求低迷时无法开征附加费,裸票价格受压,此时若未在更低位锁定对冲,现金流将极度承压。 - **双重盈利机制**:景气上行期,不仅客运端具备价格转嫁能力(加征燃油附加费),金融端的对冲多头也会直接在 P&L 层面释放丰厚利润。 - **机票价格拆解**:在油价高企阶段,旅客支付的航司客票款中,纯基础票价部分可能仅占总金额的 25%,其余绝大部分被燃油附加费及相关税费占据。 ### `26:40` 卡塔尔航空 44% 的燃油成本占比与 3.6 亿美元浮亏的“甩锅”往事 谈及各家航空公司的成本构成,外界通常认为燃油支出仅次于人力成本,约占航企总运营成本的 25% 至 30%。但当 Tracy 询问卡塔尔航空(Qatar Airways)的情况时,David 抛出了一个令人咋舌的数字:44%。这一极其夸张的占比震惊了主持人。David 解释道,卡塔尔航空之所以极度依赖燃油风控,是因为其人力成本结构非常特殊:公司大量从东欧和亚洲地区招募飞行员及客舱乘务员,基地设立在多哈,虽然薪资待遇优于这些员工的母国,但相较于欧美传统大型航企,其人工支出被压制在非常低的水平。人力成本基数小,使得原油支出直接占据了总开支的将近一半,因此对冲策略的死活直接决定了整家航司的存亡。 正是这种巨大的风险敞口,促使刚刚接任集团财务主管(Group Treasurer)的 David 陷入了一场职业生涯的大考。David 拥有交易员背景,此前并无大型企业内部官僚体系的任职经验,而他刚入职接盘时,卡塔尔航空的燃油对冲账目就已经浮亏约 2.8 亿美元。还没等他理顺公司流程并摸索出创造价值的途径,伴随油价走势的不利变化,对冲账面亏损迅速恶化到了 3.6 亿美元。 时任卡塔尔航空首席执行官(阿克巴尔·阿尔·贝克尔,Akbar Al Baker)随即把首席财务官丹尼尔·霍(Daniel Ho)和 David 一同叫到了 CEO 办公室当面问责。CEO 直截了当地质问 CFO:“丹,为什么我们账面上亏了整整 3.6 个亿?”此时,CFO 上演了一出教科书级别的“甩锅传球”(Hospital Pass)——在全场瞩目且明知接球人要被猛烈撞倒的情况下,把皮球直接踢给了刚入职的 David。顶着巨大压力的 David 只得硬着头皮向 CEO 解释金融对冲的本质逻辑:“长官,当油价上涨时,我们在掉期合约上赚钱,现货燃油虽然要多付钱,但敞口已经被提前锁定;而当油价下跌时,虽然对冲账目呈现亏损,但我们在现货市场采购航空煤油的实际支出也大幅降低了……” - **卡塔尔航空独特的成本结构**:燃油开支占总运营支出的 44%(行业平均仅为 25%-30%),因其乘务与机组成员多引援自东欧与亚洲,人力成本被显著压低。 - **3.6 亿美元浮亏危机**:David 接手时对冲账目亏损已达 2.8 亿美元,随后迅速扩大至 3.6 亿美元,引发最高层亲自问责。 - **职场“甩锅球”(Hospital Pass)**:面对 CEO 的怒火,CFO 丹尼尔·霍当场将回答责任抛给新任职的 David,逼迫其用最直白的商业逻辑向管理层阐明浮亏与现货采购节约之间的对冲平衡。 ### `30:00` “双重打击”与来自 CEO 的最后通牒 在卡塔尔航空(Qatar Airways)任职期间,David Kang 经历了一场剧烈的市场考验。当时油价处于下行周期,给航空公司带来了灾难性的“双重打击”(double whammy): 1. **套期保值账本惨败**:此前锁定较高价格的对冲头寸出现严重账面亏损; 2. **客运收入端崩塌**:宏观层面上,国际油价暴跌往往意味着全球经济萎靡不振。商务与休闲出行需求骤降,飞机坐不满甚至被迫停飞。停飞不仅无法产生客票收入,原本计划消耗的航油额度也积压下来,导致燃油风险敞口进一步恶化。 这种营收下滑叠加衍生品亏损的局面,引发了高层的极大不满。卡塔尔航空的首席执行官(CEO)以极其严厉的态度召见了身为集团财务主管(Group Treasurer)的 David Kang,当面下了死命令:“David,你是集团财务主管,我不想再在资产负债表上看到任何红字,你明白吗?”("David, you're the group treasurer. I do not want to see you read any more books [red ink] on the balance sheet. Do you understand?")。 走出 CEO 的办公室后,David 深刻意识到过去的传统对冲手段已经走入死胡同。面对严禁亏损的硬性约束,他必须跳出常规思维,寻找一种既能保本平局、又能在特定市场行情下创收的创新对冲架构。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 航空公司的油价下行双重打击 accDescr: 展示油价下跌如何通过宏观经济低迷引发客座率下降与套保账面亏损的双重挤压 subgraph Macro["宏观经济冲击"] A["全球经济下行 / 需求萎缩"] --> B["油价暴跌 (Brent / Jet Fuel)"] end subgraph DoubleWhammy["企业双重失血"] B --> C["高位套保头寸巨亏<br/>(Hedge Book 浮亏)"] A --> D["客流锐减 / 无法满载<br/>(航班取消或空机飞行)"] D --> E["客票收入大幅缩水<br/>计划航油未实际消耗"] end C --> F["资产负债表严重飘红<br/>CEO 下达零亏损通牒"] E --> F ``` --- ### `32:15` 航空业的“易腐性”与炼油厂思维的启发 播客主持人由此联想到自己早年作为航空口记者的经历:一位资深航空顾问曾指出,经营航空公司在本质上非常像开杂货店。两者都背负着巨大的固定成本,且其核心产品都具有极其严苛的**“易腐性”**(perishable nature)。 - 就像杂货店里进货的生菜、花菜,如果当天卖不掉,就会腐烂发烂,货值彻底归零; - 飞机虽然是极其昂贵的高价值固定资产,但机舱座位的本质是“无法存储的时间载体”。航班一旦滑行起飞,空余座位所代表的运力价值便在物理上彻底消散,无法作为存货留到明天。 面对“停止亏损、拿出办法”的绝对指令,拥有石油交易员背景的 David Kang 开始从上游实体工业中寻找灵感。他将目光投向了**石油炼油厂(Oil Refinery)**的商业模式: - 炼油厂既是原油的消费者(买入原油作为原料),又是精炼油品的生产者(生产并出售汽油、柴油、航煤); - 航空公司同样也是兼具双重属性的实体:它一方面是航煤的终端消费者;另一方面,它也是“空间位移产品”的生产者——生产从 A 点到 B 点的座椅服务。 循着这条生产逻辑不断深入拆解,团队将核心聚焦在客票的价格构成上,并锁定了其中最关键的一项构成:**燃油附加费(Fuel Surcharge)**。 --- ### `34:20` 燃油附加费:客票里的隐性“多头”与天然敞口 为了验证客票中的商品属性,财务团队对各项数据进行了长达数周的精细相关性测试: - **燃油附加费与布伦特原油(Brent)**的相关系数高达约 **75%**; - 集团采用的布伦特原油掉期与实际航空煤油(Jet Fuel)的相关性约为 **88%**(布伦特基准相关性在 87%–88% 区间); - 结论明确:布伦特原油是极佳的对冲代理工具,而燃油附加费本身就是航空公司向旅客销售的“大宗商品联动产品”。 传统财务对冲仅着眼于**“消耗对冲”(Consumption Hedging)**,即单纯为买油防涨;而如果将燃油附加费纳入考量,航空公司其实完全有条件执行**“收入对冲”(Revenue Hedging)**。 随后,David Kang 与当时的收益管理(Revenue Management)高级副总裁 Anko Van der Werff 及其核心助手 Sven Larsen 展开了深入研讨。收益管理部门在此前从未意识到自身业务与大宗商品交易有如此紧密的联系。David 直接点明:“你们在油价上其实是**结构性做多(Long Oil)**的。”因为每当油价上涨,航司便能顺理成章地通过调高燃油附加费来扩张总营收。 这一突破性发现重新定义了航空公司的风险底色: - **燃油空头(Short Fuel)**:飞机构造与运营消耗航油,航司天然是实物航油的买方/做空者; - **燃油多头(Long Fuel)**:客票中的燃油附加费随油价上浮而增厚,航司在票价端天然是原油的多头。 --- ### `36:10` 拒绝裸奔:基于天然对冲的“宽跨式套利”结构 厘清了业务底层的双向敞口后,财务团队摒弃了单向押注涨跌的被动做法,仿照原油生产商的对冲逻辑,构建了一套**卖出宽跨式期权(Short Strangle)**策略: ```mermaid flowchart LR accTitle: 结构性宽跨式套利对冲闭环 accDescr: 展现卖出看涨期权与看跌期权如何与航司底层现货及客票收入实现无裸奔覆盖 subgraph Upside["油价暴涨区间 (Upside Risk)"] A["卖出看涨期权<br/>(Short Call)"] --- B["被行权遭受亏损"] C["燃油附加费同步飙升<br/>(Long Exposure)"] -->|覆盖平抑| B end subgraph Downside["油价暴跌区间 (Downside Risk)"] D["卖出看跌期权<br/>(Short Put)"] --- E["被行权承担期权亏损"] F["现货航煤采购成本大降<br/>(Cheaper Jet Fuel)"] -->|对冲弥补| E end subgraph Range["均值回归核心区间"] G["油价围绕 $100 窄幅震荡"] --> H["期权费全部落袋为安<br/>(净利润增厚)"] end ``` 该策略的操作细节与风控逻辑极为严密: 1. **卖出看涨期权(Short Calls)并非裸头寸**:如果油价失控暴涨,卖出的 Call 会被对手方行权产生亏损;但此时油价大涨将直接触发燃油附加费暴增,客票增厚的高额现金流能够完全吸收 Call 的行权亏损; 2. **卖出看跌期权(Short Puts)具有现货成本吸收垫**:如果油价深跌触发 Put 行权亏损,虽然期权端产生账面损失,但飞机所需的现货航空煤油采购价格大幅跳水,经营端省下的真金白银能够直接对冲这笔支出; 3. **“无裸露”(No Nudity)的全方位保护**:该策略没有任何无保护的敞口暴露,团队不赌单边方向,而是建立在油价将出现**“均值回归”(Price Mean Reversion)**的判断上。当时国际原油价格在每桶 100 美元附近盘整了近 5 个月,只要油价维持在该波动区间内,期权金就能全额转化为收益。 最终结果非常理想:航司在严守“不冒大亏损”红线的同时,在区间震荡中赚取了相当可观的收益。 主持人总结指出,许多人以为交易员的工作只是盯盘投机、日夜刷钱;但在大企业内部,财务与对冲管理的核心是**“挖掘企业自身的自然交易敞口”(Natural Exposure)**。David 对此深表赞同,并坦言在企业语境下,“套期保值”(Hedging)在某种程度上是一个用词不当的掩护词(misnomer)——每一次对冲的底层,本质上都是一种带有结构性视角的交易(View & Trade),企业对冲者从不自称交易员,但他们执行的每一步都是不折不扣的市场交易行为。 ### `40:00` 企业合规对“对冲”与“交易”的偏见与界限 在企业财务体系中,“交易(Trading)”通常是个极其敏感乃至被排斥的词汇。合规部门和外部审计师一旦听到这个词往往会“暴跳如雷(goes ballistic)”,坚持认为企业只能做“纯粹的对冲”。在传统的合规逻辑中,逻辑必须非常机械:如果你是消费者,就只能通过买入来锁定成本;如果你是生产者,就只能通过卖出来锁定收入。任何超出这一僵化框架的操作,都会被合规团队视为不合规的投机交易。 然而,优秀的司库需要找到底层资产与企业实际风险敞口之间的微妙纽带。只要金融产品在本质上挂钩了航空煤油的底层风险,就能通过创新结构构建有效的保护。这种思路类似于生鲜食品市场:蔬菜容易腐烂,通常只能保存一天;如果有人能通过技术延长蔬菜的保质期,那么在市场上他实际上就已经处于“做多蔬菜”而非“做空”的有利地位。司库的核心任务,正是看穿这种底层结构并将其转化为企业的竞争壁垒。 --- ### `41:18` 1.3亿美元收益:对冲反哺客票定价战 这套反直觉的对冲策略为卡塔尔航空带来了极其震撼的财务回报。当年这笔对冲交易净赚了 1.3 亿美元。与此形成鲜明对比的是,公司当年的客运收入端实际亏损了 6500 万美元。如果不是这笔对冲利润力挽狂澜填补了亏损,司库团队甚至管理层恐怕都会面临问责下课的危机。 ```mermaid flowchart LR accTitle: 对冲收益反哺票价竞争流程图 accDescr: 展示1.3亿美元对冲利润如何弥补收入端亏损并支持卡塔尔航空主动降价20%占领市场 subgraph Treasury["财务司库端"] HedgeProfit["对冲操作盈利<br/>+1.3 亿美元"] CoverLoss["填补客票收入缺口<br/>-6500 万美元"] end subgraph Strategy["商业与票价端"] Surplus["剩余安全垫利润<br/>+6500 万美元"] PriceCut["主动下调票价 20%<br/>打破跟随者角色"] LoadFactor["客座率攀升至 80%-90%<br/>实现先发优势抢占市场"] end HedgeProfit --> CoverLoss CoverLoss --> Surplus Surplus --> PriceCut PriceCut --> LoadFactor ``` 更深远的意义在于,这笔盈利赋予了航司商业部门降价发起价格战的战略底气。在海湾地区航空市场中,卡塔尔航空此前长期扮演着“市场跟随者”的角色——只能盯着阿联酋航空(Emirates,代码 EK)乃至阿提哈德航空(Etihad,代码 EY)的动作,对手降价才敢跟降,对手提价才敢跟进。但凭借这笔对冲收益带来的安全垫,财务团队与管理层密切配合,一举打破了被动局面: - 卡塔尔航空直接将机票价格下调了 20%,夺取了市场定价的“先发优势(First-mover advantage)”。 - 凭借极具竞争力的票价,航班客座率迅速攀升至 80% 到 90%,实现了真正意义上的“把旅客填满座位(bums on seats)”。 --- ### `43:24` 产油国航司为何无法享受廉价燃油? 外界常有一种误解:阿联酋、卡塔尔等中东国家坐拥巨量石油资源,本国航司理应能享受政府补贴或极低廉的航油价格,甚至可以通过与炼油厂互换原油换取廉价航油。但现实中航空公司的运营模式决定了这种设想根本行不通。 民航业采用的是“枢纽-辐射(Hub-and-spoke)”网络。尽管全球航线都会经过中东枢纽,但飞机装载的航油重量存在严格上限;在执行跨洲长途飞行时,客机飞抵海外目的地后,必须在当地机场补充燃油。而在异地机场加油时,定价权完全掌握在当地航油供应商手中,中东航司根本无法控制海外站点的采购成本。 --- ### `44:37` 被自家国家石油公司“痛宰”与绝密的波音787空中转运 更令人大跌眼镜的是主场采购的残酷现实。卡塔尔航空在多哈大本营不仅没有享受到特权,反而被本国国家石油公司旗下的燃油供应子公司 WOQOD(Woqod)狠宰一笔: - 当时 WOQOD 在多哈向卡塔尔航空销售航油的价格高达每加仑 3.65 美元。 - 与此同时,卡塔尔航空飞往迪拜加油时,雪佛龙(Chevron)在迪拜机场报出的航油价格仅为每加仑 2.95 美元。 - 换算下来,自家国家石油公司卖给本国航司的价格,竟然比隔壁迪拜贵了整整 70 美分/加仑。 面对这种荒唐的价差,卡塔尔航空展开了一场大胆而绝密的“航油转运(Fuel Tankering)”行动。当公司接收全新的波音 787 梦想客机(Dreamliner)时,对外宣称是将新飞机部署在多哈至迪拜的短途航线上进行“机组人员飞行训练”;但暗地里,真正的目的其实是去迪拜“套利拉油”: - 飞机从多哈起飞前往迪拜时,机上燃油几乎被压缩到极限(仅剩 3 至 5 吨航油,可谓是“靠油烟在飞”),到了迪拜根本没有盘旋等待的余量,必须立即降落。 - 一旦在迪拜落地,客机便会一次性加满约 100 吨廉价燃油。 - 随后飞机飞回多哈,将多余的燃油直接卸载灌入多哈国际机场自身的航油储罐中。 通过这种“蚂蚁搬家”式的转运,卡塔尔航空在多哈机场储备了大约 900 万至 1000 万加仑的航油储备,足以保障整家航司在完全断供的情况下维持一整天的全球飞行运作。 --- ### `47:11` 2020年惨痛亏损后的航司新现实:票价成为终极武器 回到当下,全球各家航司的司库主管面对原油及成品油价格剧烈波动的环境,态度已经发生了剧烈转变。2020 年疫情暴发期间,许多航司在燃油对冲上遭遇灭顶之灾:达美航空(Delta)亏损超过 10 亿美元,某家知名亚洲顶级航空公司更是巨亏近 20 亿美元。由于地缘政治错综复杂、走势极难预测,现在的航司普遍对“消耗量对冲(Consumption hedging)”心存忌惮。 多数航司目前的应对策略已经转向“成本顺价”:放弃复杂的衍生品投机对冲,直接将激增的航油成本转嫁给旅客,将机票定价本身作为核心的对冲武器。 当被问及是否有其他航司效仿他当年的对冲架构时,嘉宾透露,自己曾受邀去新加坡的司库峰会发表演讲分享该模型,但当场被 CEO 紧急叫停。管理层明确指示“绝不能去讲”,因为这是必须严守的商业机密。这种策略之所以极少有人采用,一方面是因为审计机构和持股的主权财富基金(SWF)思想保守,普遍认为作为燃油消耗方去“卖出原油/衍生品”离经叛道;另一方面也暴露出许多司库视野狭隘,“如同戴着眼罩的马”,脑子里只有单向买油对冲成本这一条死路,根本无法将客票定价与财务对冲全局联动起来构建战略优势。 --- ### `49:33` 成品油危机与美国柴油出口禁令传言 对话随后转向宏观炼油产品市场的焦点事件。近期美国柴油危机持续发酵、价格暴涨,市场上甚至传出美国政府可能会出台“柴油出口禁令”的风声。 对于主权国家禁止成品油出口的连锁冲击,嘉宾直言这让人想起特朗普(Donald Trump)时期的政策作风。在国际市场上,俄罗斯和中国此前都已经不同程度地采取过限制或管控成品油出口的手段。尤其值得警惕的是,俄罗斯是全球第二大柴油出口国,一旦主要炼油大国筑起贸易壁垒限制成品油外运,全球成品油供应链与价格体系必将承受极其剧烈的冲击。 ### `50:00` 欧美成品油套利与航运流向的错位 随着大量柴油产能被移出市场供给,欧洲本土正面临严重的柴油短缺,直接推动了伦敦汽油(London Gas Oil)期货价格飙升至历史高位。与此同时,围绕出口禁令的大量市场传闻和口头宣示反而对市场产生了反作用:美国墨西哥湾(PADD 3)作为全美的“炼油厨房”,聚集了极其庞大的炼油产能,而这一政治舆论打压了美国本土的柴油与取暖油价格。纽约港(New York Harbor)及其所在的美国东海岸,由于输送管道运力有限,其航煤、柴油和取暖油高度依赖海运,在很多时候东海岸甚至需要直接从欧洲海运进口柴油来弥补供应缺口。这直接造成了伦敦汽油因进口需求强劲而大幅走高,而美国取暖油价格则相对低迷。 在具体的原油与成品油海运贸易流向方面,美国墨西哥湾出口的取暖油绝大部分直接流向了拉丁美洲,出口到欧洲的比例微乎其微。实际上,墨西哥湾炼厂更倾向于采用阿芙拉型油轮(Aframax)、长航程2型油轮(LR2),甚至是通过巴拿马运河的巴拿马型油轮(Panamax),直接横跨大洋将油品运往亚洲,送达日本千叶等工业炼化中心。这种跨区域套利的复杂动态让主持人打趣道:“我已经等不及想看看今年冬天我在康涅狄格州的房子取暖费会有多离谱了。”随后节目对嘉宾 David Kang 表达了由衷感谢,并推荐了他在 SSRN 上发表的核心论文——《21世纪的航空燃油对冲:航空公司如何学会主动塑造收入》(*Fuel Hedging in the 21st Century: What Every Airline Can Learn About Proactively Shaping Revenue*)。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 全球成品油跨区域海运套利与流向 accDescr: 展示美国墨西哥湾炼厂、欧洲短缺市场、美国东海岸以及亚洲之间的成品油运输网络 subgraph GulfSupply["美国墨西哥湾 (PADD 3 炼油枢纽)"] G1["炼厂充沛产能"] end subgraph AtlanticTrade["大西洋海运与套利"] NY["纽约港 / 美国东海岸"] EU["欧洲 (伦敦汽油短缺,溢价严重)"] LATAM["拉丁美洲 (主要取暖油买家)"] end subgraph PacificTrade["跨太平洋长航线"] ASIA["亚洲市场 (如日本千叶 Chiba)"] end G1 -->|"油轮跨运 (Panamax/Aframax)"| ASIA G1 -->|"主要供给"| LATAM G1 -.->|"管道受限 / 沿海运力有限"| NY EU -->|"逆向跨海进口柴油补缺"| NY ``` - **欧洲出口规模评估**:墨西哥湾出口至欧洲的油品仅约每日 50 万桶,其中英国仅占每日 10 万桶左右,其他欧洲国家瓜分剩余的 15 万桶,整体占比并不算高。 - **航运船型配置**:长途跨洲际航线普遍调动 Aframax、LR2 或是能穿过巴拿马运河的 Panamax 油轮,主要承担从美国墨西哥湾直达日本等远东港口的高利润货载。 --- ### `52:05` 航空公司对冲本质:结构性头寸与“非典型交易员” 在送走嘉宾后的复盘讨论中,主持人 Tracy Allaway 和 Joe Weisenthal 均对航司燃油运作的内幕叹为观止。Tracy 尤其对卡塔尔航空为了节约成本从迪拜向多哈反向“油罐拉油”(tankering oil)的轶事赞不绝口。作为对比,她分享了另一个著名的航空燃油极品八卦:曾经主打全商务舱奢华服务的银捷航空(Silverjet)在濒临破产之际,信贷机构彻底切断了其燃油采购授信,公司的首席执行官(CEO)不得不掏出自己的个人信用卡来全额刷卡支付飞机的燃油账单,结果该 CEO 靠刷航油积分攒下了堆积如山的英国航空(British Airways)飞行里程。Joe 也附和表示,联邦快递(FedEx)创立初期创始人同样依靠个人信用卡透支债务死撑,这种求生韧性极具戏剧性。 话题随后切入到企业财资部门的实质角色。企业虽然极度反感在公司架构中使用“交易员”(trader)这个称谓,但事实上他们在进行抛售看涨期权、买入看跌期权以及调控头寸时,做的事情和交易员毫无二致。不同的是,华尔街典型的自营交易员追求的是直接将 P&L(盈亏账面)最大化;而大型航司对冲部门的核心,是在深刻洞察企业在市场上天然持有的“结构性头寸”后,去主动做动态平衡。传统直觉认为航空公司永远“天然做空石油”(做空即油价上涨遭受损失),然而现实中,在油价暴涨能够被全额转嫁给乘客的周期里,航空公司实际上变成了“天然做多石油”。只有精准识别出企业在商业全链条上的隐形敞口,才能真正驾驭对冲工具。 --- ### `55:00` 烘焙坊效应与过热的航空旅行经济 谈及燃油成本向上游票价传导的现象,Tracy 指出这与此前播客探讨过的“芝加哥烘焙坊故事”如出一辙——当时芝加哥的一位烘焙师提到,只要全美各大新闻头条都在大肆报道鸡蛋价格暴涨,他就可以肆无忌惮地全面提高店内面包西点的售价,因为全体消费者在心理上已经通过新闻接受了涨价的必然性。航司的燃油附加费和机票价格也是同样的逻辑,在石油危机的巨大新闻声浪下,大众对机票提价的承受弹性(elasticity)变得极高。只要行业没有滑向真正的物理断油断供,航空公司就能凭借公开成本冲击大做文章。 但最令主持人们感慨的是终端需求的惊人韧性:尽管物价普涨,大家都在社交媒体和生活中抱怨标价过高,但全球出行的总人数和航班需求依然处于爆炸式增长的状态。庞大的出行客流完全没有被高企的机票价格所削弱,这清晰地反映出宏观经济整体依然极为强劲与火热(hot economy)。节目最后在常规结语与致谢中落下帷幕,提醒听众订阅彭博社 Odd Lots 简报与社群,并呼吁听众对航空商业解密类话题提供反馈。 ## Notable quotes > `10:00` 付钱就能飞,无需操心燃油。 > `15:00` You bleed > `22:00` 说得委婉一点,有时候人们是会私下串通通气的。 — David Kang > `24:10` 相当于赚了两倍的钱 — David Kang > `26:40` 丹,为什么我们账面上亏了整整 3.6 个亿? — Akbar Al Baker > `26:40` 长官,当油价上涨时,我们在掉期合约上赚钱,现货燃油虽然要多付钱,但敞口已经被提前锁定;而当油价下跌时,虽然对冲账目呈现亏损,但我们在现货市场采购航空煤油的实际支出也大幅降低了…… — David Kang > `30:00` David, you're the group treasurer. I do not want to see you read any more books [red ink] on the balance sheet. Do you understand? — Akbar Al Baker > `34:20` 你们在油价上其实是结构性做多(Long Oil)的。 — David Kang > `40:00` 暴跳如雷(goes ballistic) > `41:18` 把旅客填满座位(bums on seats) > `47:11` 绝不能去讲 — Akbar Al Baker > `47:11` 如同戴着眼罩的马 — David Kang > `50:00` 我已经等不及想看看今年冬天我在康涅狄格州的房子取暖费会有多离谱了。 — Joe Weisenthal ## Mentioned Tracy Allaway, Joe Weisenthal, David Kang, Akbar Al Baker, Daniel Ho, Anko Van der Werff, Sven Larsen, Donald Trump, Qatar Airways, Southwest Airlines, Delta Air Lines, Singapore Airlines, Emirates, Etihad Airways, Silverjet, British Airways, FedEx, Boeing, Airbus, JPMorgan, NatWest, Sumitomo, Glencore, Mercuria, Vitol, Morgan Stanley, Goldman Sachs, Chevron, WOQOD, Platts, Argus, Bloomberg, SSRN, TSA, Brent Crude, WTI Crude, Jet A-1, Fuel Hedging in the 21st Century: What Every Airline Can Learn About Proactively Shaping Revenue ## Video description <p data-prosemirror-content-type="node" data-prosemirror-node-name="paragraph" data-prosemirror-node-block="true" data-pm-slice="1 1 []">Fuel is a huge expense for airlines, and even on a good day, jet fuel prices are pretty volatile. Throw in two major wars now effecting energy infrastructure, and fuel prices across the board are higher and higher. Airlines have long tried to manage this expense through fuel hedging, using things like swaps and options to hedge against future increases in the price of jet fuel. David Kang, former group treasurer at Qatar Airways, has firsthand experience hedging for a large carrier, and he tells us exactly how it all works. He also explains why airlines use heating oil as a proxy for jet fuel, how much they can make by raising ticket prices and fuel surcharges, and why airlines and oil refineries aren't so different.</p> <p data-prosemirror-content-type="node" data-prosemirror-node-name="paragraph" data-prosemirror-node-block="true">Read more:<br data-prosemirror-content-type="node" data-prosemirror-node-name="hardBreak" data-prosemirror-node-inline="true"><a href="https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2026-09-30/war-exposes-the-cost-of-the-west-s-retreat-from-oil-refining?utm_medium=referral&utm_source=podcast&utm_campaign=odd_lots&utm_content=article" data-prosemirror-content-type="mark" data-prosemirror-mark-name="link">War Exposes the Cost of the West&rsquo;s Retreat From Oil Refining</a><br data-prosemirror-content-type="node" data-prosemirror-node-name="hardBreak" data-prosemirror-node-inline="true"><a href="https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2026-09-30/mideast-crude-oil-flows-hit-98-of-pre-war-level-jpmorgan-says?utm_medium=referral&utm_source=podcast&utm_campaign=odd_lots&utm_content=article" data-prosemirror-content-type="mark" data-prosemirror-mark-name="link">JPMorgan and Goldman See Mideast Oil Flows Near Pre-War Levels</a></p> <p data-prosemirror-content-type="node" data-prosemirror-node-name="paragraph" data-prosemirror-node-block="true">Only <a href="http://Bloomberg.com" data-inline-card="" data-card-data="">http://Bloomberg.com</a> subscribers can get the Odd Lots newsletter in their inbox each week, plus unlimited access to the site and app. Subscribe at&nbsp; <a href="https://www.bloomberg.com/subscriptions/oddlots?in_source=oddlotspodcast" data-prosemirror-content-type="mark" data-prosemirror-mark-name="link">bloomberg.com/subscriptions/oddlots</a></p> <p data-prosemirror-content-type="node" data-prosemirror-node-name="paragraph" data-prosemirror-node-block="true"><a href="http://bloomberg.com/subscriptions/oddlots" data-prosemirror-content-type="mark" data-prosemirror-mark-name="link">Subscribe to the Odd Lots Newsletter</a><br data-prosemirror-content-type="node" data-prosemirror-node-name="hardBreak" data-prosemirror-node-inline="true"><strong data-prosemirror-content-type="mark" data-prosemirror-mark-name="strong">Join the conversation:</strong> <a href="https://discord.gg/oddlots" data-prosemirror-content-type="mark" data-prosemirror-mark-name="link">discord.gg/oddlots</a></p><p>See <a href="https://omnystudio.com/listener">omnystudio.com/listener</a> for privacy information.</p> [Source](https://podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/tracking.swap.fm/track/UVBrz8bN8aM2Xe47PEPu/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/8a94442e-5a74-4fa2-8b8d-ae27003a8d6b/4dabf3ec-4fc6-4bb9-a7a7-b4d601226e6f/audio.mp3?in_playlist=982f5071-765c-403d-969d-ae27003a8d83)

Source quotes

[10:00] 付钱就能飞,无需操心燃油。 [15:00] You bleed [22:00] David Kang: 说得委婉一点,有时候人们是会私下串通通气的。 [24:10] David Kang: 相当于赚了两倍的钱 [26:40] Akbar Al Baker: 丹,为什么我们账面上亏了整整 3.6 个亿? [26:40] David Kang: 长官,当油价上涨时,我们在掉期合约上赚钱,现货燃油虽然要多付钱,但敞口已经被提前锁定;而当油价下跌时,虽然对冲账目呈现亏损,但我们在现货市场采购航空煤油的实际支出也大幅降低了…… [30:00] Akbar Al Baker: David, you're the group treasurer. I do not want to see you read any more books [red ink] on the balance sheet. Do you understand? [34:20] David Kang: 你们在油价上其实是结构性做多(Long Oil)的。 [40:00] 暴跳如雷(goes ballistic) [41:18] 把旅客填满座位(bums on seats) [47:11] Akbar Al Baker: 绝不能去讲 [47:11] David Kang: 如同戴着眼罩的马 [50:00] Joe Weisenthal: 我已经等不及想看看今年冬天我在康涅狄格州的房子取暖费会有多离谱了。

Source quotes

[20:00] David Kang: it's better to have a hedge on than no hedge at all [22:04] David Kang: Sometimes people talk to each other... And they agree on something. And then what they agreed on happens because all of them are looking the same way and are trading the same way. [24:14] David Kang: twice as much money while you can [26:44] Dan, why are we down $360 million? [30:00] David, you're the group treasurer. I do not want to see you write any more books on the balance sheet. Do you understand? [31:35] Joe Weisenthal: stop losing money [31:35] Joe Weisenthal: do better [40:00] David Kang: bums on seats [46:42] David Kang: like a horse with blinders

Original transcript

[0:00] There are some market stories where you want every detail. Joe and I have made quite a few podcasts on that basis, but sometimes you've only got 10 minutes and just want to know what's moving markets fast. That's the Barclays Brief podcast. Every week, experts from Barclays Markets and Research get you up to speed on what's happening and what to watch next. Concise, focused, and brief. Search Barclays Brief wherever you get your podcasts. AI is entering its most consequential will determine who leads and who lags. Join Bloomberg Tech in London on November 2nd and 3rd as global leaders across business, finance and policy examine the defining trade-offs shaping the future of AI. Thank you to our presenting sponsor Salesforce and supporting sponsors IDA Ireland and Schneider Electric. Learn more at bloomberglive.com slash techlondon. Hey, Odd Lots listeners, the Odd Lots tour continues and our next stop is in Chicago. That's right. Joe and I will be at the City Winery Chicago on October 15th for a live Odd Lots recording. Tickets are on sale now at Bloomberg.com forward slash Odd Lots. And of course, a special thank you to Barclays for supporting Odd Lots Live. So that's October 15th at City Winery in Chicago. Get your tickets now. Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio, news. Hello, and welcome to another episode of the All Vots podcast. I'm Tracy Allaway. And I'm Joe Weisenthal. Joe, there's a topic that we've been wanting to do for a while. Yes, yes. And you would think it's kind of simple, but actually, it's been really, really hard finding a perfect guest for this particular topic because it involves airlines. It involves a particular strategy and airlines having been a transportation correspondent for like a couple years way back in the day airlines they're weird about things they're kind of secretive and they often don't want to talk about stuff i actually didn't know this yeah like um this is a industry thing that i didn't know that they have a reputation or a pattern of there's like two things in the airline world that i always wanted to know or see and we're going to talk about one of them today of airline fuel hedging. But the second one, I always wanted to see a completed aircraft contract, like an actual aircraft order that included the discounts that airlines would get. Because when you see the announcement, like Virgin Atlantic orders, I don't know, a certain number of planes from Boeing or Airbus, it's always at the list prices. So you never actually get a good feel for what they're actually paying for it. So I always wanted to see that never did in my right now. I'm very excited about this episode because fuel hedging by airlines, you know, you hear about it all the time or you hear, you know, every time there's a big price or usually jump in oil, there's something people talk about the airlines and we've all said it. Right. This is what I'm fascinated by. All of these things that we talk about all of the time. So did they hedge their fuel? And then the conversation stops there. And they're like, oh, they did hedge their fuel. So OK. Or they didn't hedge their fuel. So their stock is going down, whatever. But we all talk about it and have no idea actually what it means. And I'm very fascinated, too, by, OK, they have traders. Right. activity happening on the corporate side that almost gets no coverage. The other thing about fuel and airline costs, so fuel is, I think, the second biggest cost for airlines after labor, which makes sense. But it's also the most volatile cost. But people always imagine hedging as like, OK, airlines are worried about the price of oil going up or to be more specific, the price of jet fuel going up. And so they want to lock in a certain cost so that they don't get caught out suddenly fuel recently. But at the same time, there's always another lever that airlines pull when you see higher prices, higher oil prices, which is they raise fares or they raise fuel surcharges. So you can get this weird environment where you both lock in a certain price and and oil starts to spike, maybe the price you locked in is lower. And you can institute a fuel surcharge as well, because as we all know from doing these inflation episodes, if oil shortages, jet fuel shortages, everything else are in the news, customers aren't really going to complain that much if they see a big fuel surcharge on their bill. Airline prices are very expensive these days. Yeah, they are. But bookings are really high, too. People are flying. And I keep seeing all these things, new TSA records, new global records. [5:00] We are flying a lot in this world. Of course, you know, if you're if you hedged your oil and your competitor didn't. Right. They're going to have to raise prices or if they're not going to lose money. And then it's like, OK, well, here's my opportunity, etc. So I'm very excited. curious about how it all works, how it feeds through. And I'm just to a little bit of context, we're recording this September 29th. Back in February or March when the Iran war broke out, we were all staring at that Singapore jet fuel chart. Well, one of us was. One of us was looking at it. I was staring at the Europe jet fuel versus Brent crack spread. Oh, okay. You know, that's the difference. Sorry. No, but it is true. Like, this has been in the news. And, of course, with oil prices spiking again with the shortage of diesel, this has suddenly become a very relevant topic. a competitive advantage for airlines. Disclosure, my dad flew for Southwest for a long time. A lot of my inheritance is somewhat unfortunately still in Southwest stock. No, I don't want to see it. I don't want to see it. But Southwest famously pioneered a certain hedging strategy that then got copied by everyone else with varying degrees of success. So it can be an enormously important factor for airlines. And I am so don't show it to me, Joe. I don't want to don't zoom out. It looks Don't zoom out. Tracy, wait a second. It's not that bad. Look, look, it's actually like I was expecting worse. For those who are just listening, I tilted my computer screen so Tracy could see the chart. It's not as bad as I expected the way you the way you led into that. Yeah. So I'm very happy to say that we finally found it the perfect guest to talk about all of this. Someone who did actual fuel hedging strategy at a major carrier and also did it in an extremely interesting way. former group treasurer over at Qatar Airways and also an all-round oil expert. So David, thank you so much for coming on All Thoughts. Happy to be here. We are so glad to have finally found you. Thank you so much for staying up late from Singapore. Why don't you just go ahead and tell us who you are and why I just described you as a general oil market expert in addition to being the former group treasurer of Qatar? That is a long story, and I'm going to pretty much put into a synopsis where I created a effects in Toronto. I traded interest rates in New York. 425 Lexington was the building I was in for a Canadian bank, which is just down the road from you. And came back to Singapore, joined NatWest, sent to London to sell government bonds. And then became a bond trader with a Japanese trading house and lost my job in the 1998 Asian financial crisis. So then became an oil broker and they did that for about six, seven years. And 2006, my buddy, who was the MD of JP Morgan for Asia. The head of commodities for them basically asked me to join him on the desk. And so then I moved from becoming an oil broker to a structurer. And then I went to Sumitomo, the Japanese trading house, and became the head of trading for Asian products. And it's just gone from there. And I've worked in the coal industry. I've worked in the LNG industry. So I'm pretty much an energy man all in. But I think working for Qatar Airways, I learned a lot about the aviation industry and how technical it gets and how interesting it can get as well. It's a very interesting sector. We love airline episodes. Our listeners love airline episodes. So extremely excited about that. Just real quickly, what were the years you were at Qatar? Yeah. 2011 to 2013, well, two and a half to nearly three years. Got it. So former group treasurer, what is the basic expectation of that role within the airline? What is the obligation of the treasurer to do for the company? The actual title is Vice President, Treasury and Risk Management. Okay. So basically, I do the treasury and I do the risk management for all financial products of the airline. So I protect the airline financially. That's what a treasurer does. So who actually hedges? Because my understanding is that some of the U.S. carriers weren't as prevalent when it comes to hedging as they had been in the past. I think the U.S. carriers aren't as prevalent. It's because they got smacked in 2014 and 2015. So they realized, right, Delta recently, 2020, right, lost nearly over a billion dollars. So they were still hedging as well. But most of the American carriers, especially the small ones, especially the smaller airlines, they just put everything into the surcharge to pass all the costs on to the customers. [10:00] That's built into the ticket. Now, you will never see a ticket that tells you the percentage of your surcharge. It will just tell you it's a fuel surcharge. And then that's it. And some of them even have done away with that. They say, that's the ticket price. You pay it and you fly. Then that's it. Don't worry about the fuel. You want to get somewhere? It'll take you. So in that aspect, that's when some of the U.S. carriers actually dropped out, right, because they don't have a hedge fund. big enough or other they don't have a balance sheet big enough to maybe take on these risks of hedging. And that's what the international carriers do have, is they have a balance sheet. And they have a hedge book that's big enough. Plus, they have a revenue book that's big enough as well. And that's why they can charge the surcharge at the same time as they're hedging the fuel on the consumption side. So think of an airline, very similar to an oil refinery. Okay, so what does an oil refinery do? It takes in crude, sends it this crude distillation unit, the CDU, and all of that comes out on the outside of the products, right? So you've got LPG at the top, then you've got gasoline, and then you've got NAFTA, and then after that you've got your mildews of jet kerosene, and then your gas oil, and then after the fuel residue. So all these are products that come out from crude. So what does a refinery do? They sell the crack. That's the difference between the product. and the underlying crude. That's a spread. So they sell the product, which is basically producer hedging because it's called revenue hedging. They've got revenue here because they're selling the product. They're also buying. So they're at risk. So you need to buy. the crude. So the same thing happens with airlines. And airlines, what we do is, I mean, I had to get creative for a number of reasons, which I won't go into. But because of those reasons, we had to sit down and really think about how hedging is going to be because we had a 6.6 within balance sheet and we were consuming money. The first year of consumption was something like anywhere from 24 to 27 million barrels. The next year was at one of three more million barrels and then had another. So we hitched. We look at it. We look, we forecast out to three years. One of the reasons why we did that was because we were accepting 1.5 aircraft a month and basically we were planning new routes probably once every two months we'd begin a new route so we could schedule all this we knew what was coming in we knew the planes that were coming in so our consumption was going up at a steady rate now so we understood what we were doing and so we also saw that the world was you know it was looking good people were trying to fly again Sometimes you have to look at the price freely and start to think about it. And what's your probability when it was a triple digit? Because you use Brent as your proxy because the jet fuel market is too thin. or the American carriers use heating oil. It's their proxy, not jet, because jet market is too thin. Northwest Europe, SIFJet, that's a very thin market. So, you know, you cannot use these instruments to help you hedge. You have to go and use Brent as your proxy, where it's liquid. And there are people at both sides of the table for Brent. I mean, if you go to a table where there are airlines, they're the only buyers of jet fuel. So you've got a ton of refineries. I've got fuel for you. I've been Glencore, Mercurial. The list goes on, VTOL. You'll also jet fuel for the airline. Morgan Stanley, too, as well. I've dealt with Morgan Stanley, Goldman Sachs. I bought physical jet from them at certain locations around the planet. Thank you. There are some market stories where you want every detail. 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Subscribe today on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen. you OK, so there are these various entities that you can trade with. Let's start with what is the most plain vanilla thing, the sort of modal trade, perhaps, so to speak, of how I imagine there are all sorts of complex ways, complexifiers, et cetera. But what is the sort of core, most common trade that one would do? How does it walk us through the steps of it? Well, there's a swap. And the swap is actually a derivative of your futures market. So from your futures market, you can tell what the swap rate is, right? Two months out. So this is your swap rate for April. It takes into account May and June for the futures. And that's your April swap rate. So you would buy swaps. And When you buy swaps, it's symmetric. So, I mean, you could go up or go down and you could, you know, and if the price of all goes up, you're looking good because you've locked in. your exposure and you've locked in your cost but if it goes down you bleed. So it's best to do swaps when I think oil is low and it's, you know, in the lower double digits, somewhere around $25, $35. It's not an issue to buy swaps. But as it gets, as it moves further up, around $70 to $80, I think... The free buddy starts to think about that risk going up because how long will oil scale elevate it? So they'll try and do options. So they'll buy call options. But the thing is, for that insurance, you have to pay a fee. You have to pay a premium. So some airlines are, for lack of a better term, too cheap to pay for their calls. So they fund it by selling puts. So that's all they can afford is zero-cost caller. And they can use that so you can buy options, you can do zero cost callers, and you can do swaps. These are pretty much plain vanilla. Thank you. But the stuff that I used to structure for J.P. Morgan was a target redemption note. And then you have a vanilla side on the option and you have the exotic side. So that's where it gets a little bit more complicated. So the idea is that we have banks that are actually selling target redemption notes for the purposes of fuel hedging to airlines. Okay, on the vanilla side, you do a zero-cost collar with the airline. I found the bank. But on the back of it, I structure the note as a target redemption note. That means it's basically going to redeem in five months, redeem in one year, or redeem in two years. So off the back of that, on the exotic side, I can get you a better rate where you can buy the oil. your call options. That means I can basically pull the call options, but they're actually inside the money. It's like they're in the money. Paul mentions that I can sell to you, but with this exotic behind that. And so a lot of these exotics, they're called extendables. Some of them are just like selling like what I did, a strangle. That means basically I sold both wings. I saw calls at the top you know, above 120 bucks. I sold puts below 80 bucks, right? And wherever oil stayed in between, I would profit from that because the banks would be paying me the premium. It's so funny because I'm so used to thinking about those sorts of notes and structured products in Asia as being sold. Yeah, to mom and pop, someone betting on a big move or lack thereof in the Kospis, something like that. I hadn't even thought for a second that it could be related to fuel hedging. David, can I just ask, you said something really interesting earlier, which is that most of the fuel hedging is done via Brent trades as opposed to jet fuel. because the actual jet fuel trading market is so thin. Does that mean that airlines end up being exposed to big differences between, I guess, the direction of the price of jet fuel and the price of Brent? Because sometimes, you know, that difference does change. [20:00] very fast and very quickly as we saw earlier this year. It's a fair comment, right? I would say yes and no. So yes to the fact, right, that we, as an airline, what do we burn? We've been jet A1. So... Basically, we're exposed to the jet fuel market. We should hedge with jet. But the jet market's too thin. So that's why we use the Brent market. Now, for lack of a better term, again, it's better to have a hedge on than no hedge at all. Right. You cannot hedge in jet. Right. Right. then you're totally exposed, right? So for lack of a better proxy, people use Brent because it's the international carrier. Some airlines use, like in the United States, some of them use WTI, West Texas Intermediate. Some of them, or most of them, use heating oil because it's very close. So the heating oil spread between the jet and heating oil in the United States is tighter than what you would get. recently you had heating oil versus TI go through $100 for the crack. It was at like $107. That's like insane amounts of money. It's $230 a barrel while crude is trading at $110. And then Brent's trading at nearly $120. And in metric tons, you've got probably like a $74. to $75 crack of gas oil in Europe. I'm not sure where the jet market is in Europe because it's so hard to pin down. There's no real open market for it. There are agencies like Argus or Platts, and they will print a number. But the numbers that they print sometimes have no offer on the back of that, and there's a bid. And then they just up it, and they assume that there's an offer. Or sometimes the market is offered, and there's no bid, and then they just pick a number. So it's very arbitrary. So that's the reason why most people don't trust these agencies with their jet forecast. So they move either something they London gas oil, heating oil in the United States. I just pulled up a chart, speaking of charts, on the terminal. And it's very interesting because if I go back, normalize it, to early February, so before the war started. In March, basically, Brent crude rose 50%. Singapore jet fuel rose over 100% or more than doubled during that time. I could imagine just start there, at least for that period from, say, March to the middle of May, you could have been a well-hedged carrier hedging Brent and still bleeding a lot if what you're buying is Singapore Thank you. It is true, but, well, I invite Singapore Jets you will accept. to the incumbent. Wait, say that again? Can you explain what is, what I look at, tell me about this chart that we always pull up. Is it not that meaningful? Stop saying we, Joe. Sorry, that I. When I say we, I mean like all the people I talk with on the internet, not me and Tracy. Okay. Tell me about this chart that I've been looking at in ignorance. Singapore jet is a different animal because there are certain trading houses with certain oil majors that control that market very heavily. because they know that the only buyers of this market are the airlines. Right. And How would I put this nicely? Sometimes people talk to each other. Okay. And they agree on something. And then what they agreed on happens because all of them are looking the same way and are trading the same way. So it's not a very objective market, it's a very subjective market. And that's why, like I said, only the incumbent in Singapore actually does some jet fuel hitching. All right. Everybody else does not. How much money can airlines actually make from raising just the fares and the fuel surcharges? Like why even bother to hedge if in theory, I mean, I'm sure you have thoughts on the price elasticity of air travel, but if in theory I could just fully pass on the additional fuel cost to the customer, why do I need to hedge at all? Hedging helps, like I said, when oil prices are low. Because when oil prices are low, your fuel surcharge can't do anything. You cannot charge the person on the fuel, right? And your ticket price has to be low because oil is low. And usually when oil is low, usually... The global economy is not doing well. It wasn't the case in 2014 and 2015, but most of the time in 1998, in 2008, in 2020. And right now what we're seeing with the [25:00] you know, the 2026 war between Iran and the US and Israel, a lot of times, right, it's something to do with the global economy and geopolitics. So what I would say is that hedging has its uses because it can protect you from a low level. as it moves up. So you're making money and you've locked in your cost. So that's where using swaps and calls and zero cost calls work. Now... At the same time, Because oil is going up and it's part of what makes up an airline, you can charge the surcharge as well. So the airlines that want to make money can actually do that. The surcharge doesn't go through P&L. but the hedge goes through P&L. So then, right, if the hedge goes up, right, nobody sees the surcharge coming in. Nobody sees the revenue from there, but they see the revenue coming in. from the hedge. So if you've done it well and you've bought it and the market's still going up, the economy's improving, everybody wants to travel, people are paying up, they don't really care right now how much the surcharge is. you can make. twice as much money While you can. But at the same time, you've got to be very aware and situationally aware that, like I said, it's like a refinery. Your ticket is the product. In that product, you have the ticket price. Now, nobody tells you what the ticket price is, but right now I'll tell you, because of the fuel surcharge, the ticket price is probably 25% of the ticket charge. And that's true. You would say that would just be generally true globally. On average right now, anyone buys a ticket is 25%. Actually, you talked a little bit about the cost. So overall, when you say we talk about the cost of a flight or the cost of running an airline, is fuel basically 25% of the cost? Tracy mentioned that it was number two after labor. But for Qatar Airways, how significant was this one component for them? 44%. Did you say 44%? Yes, I said 44%. That's the reason why I had to get creative. It was huge for us. I mean, you know, if you're like the rest of the world's airlines, right? So anywhere from 25, 30% of your costs, it's jet fuel. Labor is a big cost. But labor for us was a low cost, very low cost, right? Because we were getting a lot of crew and... We were paying them decently, but prices would be better in Doha than it was back in their home country. So we had a lot of crew and cabin crew and flight tech as well from Eastern Europe. from Asia to And, you know, we kept the cost low on the labor side. But our cost, our exposure to the, you know, to the barrel, to jet fuel, right, was 44%. That's nearly half your expenses. Wow. So you mentioned having to get creative. And this is actually... the way you came to this particular program, but you published a paper all about a particular hedging strategy that you undertook while you were at Qatar. Why don't you just to begin with, explain to us the problem that you were trying to solve for your employer here? I'll just run this anecdote for you, just a little story. I'll keep it very short, right? But basically, our hedge book was down a very decent amount of money, something like $280 million. So that's when I came on board and I had this hedge book and we were down $280 million. And... As I was learning about the airline, because I come from a trading background, you know, I'm not a corporate guy. So I have to learn how to be a corporate person and I have to learn about what the treasury is about and what the hedge book has and how I can add value. And in that time that I was trying to learn and add value, we were down to, we were at one point down $360 million. And so the CEO calls the CFO and I up to his office. to chat with us. And basically he says to the CFO, Daniel Hogue, when he says, Dan, why are we down $360 million? And I just come on board, right? And I'm the group treasurer. And he, you know, do you know what a hospital pass is? basically you pass the ball and you know everybody's running for it everybody can see you're going to get the ball and you get smacked so that was me so I got the hospital pass from Daniel and I talked to the CEO and I said look right you know chief. When oil goes up, we make money on swaps. We lose money in the physical because we don't pay more, but we've locked in our exposure. And then when oil comes down, yes, we're losing on the hedge book, but jet fuel comes down as well. And when jet fuel comes down, [30:00] Now we're making them physical. And he said, look, You are losing on the hedge book. You're also losing on revenue management because, right, if oil is coming down, right, That means the probability is at that time when I was at Qatar Airways, the probability is that the global economy is not doing too hot. So it's not doing too hot, right? we will not be able to have people sitting in their seats. We cannot fill up the plane. So the aircraft is not going to take off. If the aircraft doesn't take off, where we have fuel that we haven't burnt. So we're losing money. We're losing money on revenue. on the ticket and we're losing money in the hedge book and that was a double whammy. So, The CEO was very... It's tough. He said, David, you're the group treasure. I do not want to see you read any more books. on the balance sheet. Do you understand? So that's when I came away from that meeting with him, right? With this now... awareness that I actually had to do something where it's either we come out flat or make some money but no red. So that's one of the reasons why I did what I had to do and get creative. The music you love, your favorite radio stations, the podcasts everyone's talking about, all in one place, and it's free. Whatever you want to hear, listen anytime, anywhere, music, radio, podcasts, unlimited audio. It's on the free iHeartRadio app. One app, no subscription. Always free. Grab the free app. Everywhere you go. Always free. app today. Now, Bloomberg.com subscribers can shape the conversation on Bloomberg Radio. We got a weak and smart question. Can be part of the conversation. Submit questions for experts and guests you hear on air. Visit Bloomberg.com slash ask radio to send questions to our hosts. You may just hear them asked on the air. Exclusively for Bloomberg.com subscribers. Get answers on today's headlines, breaking earnings news, and big market moves. Visit Bloomberg.com slash ask radio to join the conversation. Right here on Bloomberg Radio. you So this actually reminds me one of the first things that I learned as an airline correspondent, which was someone who had been in the business for a very long time as a. airline consultant basically told me that It's very much like running a grocery business in the sense that you have these fixed perishable costs. And if you don't sell everything right away or fill up the capacity of the airplane... all those costs, you eat them, right? It's like, you know, I don't know, you have like 10 bags of lettuce. Cauliflower, yeah. If you don't sell it on that day, you lose all that money. And so I always thought of airlines and air travel as this very perishable industry, even though one big part of the expense is very, I guess, fixed cost in the form of aircraft. But yeah, you have to get people in the plane at a particular price on a certain day. Otherwise, you just lose money. Right. Airline capacity is not something that you can hold in inventory. Right, exactly. Yeah, it's super interesting, and I hadn't really thought about it that way. So, okay, your boss comes to you and says, stop losing money. I guess every boss of every trader everywhere would like to say that. Do better. Yeah, now you have your suddenly stop losing money mandate in this environment. What do you do after that? talked about it and looked at it from many different angles. And, you know, then, of course, me coming from an oil trading background, I I look at a refinery and I see that they're a consumer and they're a producer. And so I said, look, As an airline, we have to produce something. We're producing a seat for you to sit on to get you from point A to point B. So we're producing that seat. But what's in that seat? What goes on? So we kept on... extrapolating. Until the point where we got the ticket. And then in the ticket, you have your fuel surcharge. And we ran correlations between the fuel surcharge and Brent. And the correlations came back around 75%, which is significant. Yeah. And, of course, for our hedge fund, when we buy the swap, right, where 88% hedged, about 88% correlated with jet. So the fuel surcharge is 75% correlated with jet and our Brent is 87% oil [35:00] 35% correlated with Brent. So we use Brent as the proxy. And in the server charge, right, we now knew there was a correlation there. So that we can hedge, right? That is a product. That is something we sell. So in that ticket... We have a product. And we have revenue. And that's where you do revenue hedging. So you have consumption hedging and you have revenue hedging. So that's how we came, you know, we really extrapolate out the curve. We, you know, we sat down for a couple of weeks and really brainstormed and we came up with this. And from there, We went to the revenue management department, talked to Anko Vandervo, who was the senior VP at that time of revenue management and his right hand man, Sven Larsen. And we talked about this and even they didn't realize that they were actually involved. They actually were long oil. I actually said, you know, your long while That's how you get your revenue, right? Because you've built that long oil. Through the surcharge, right? Yes. Wait, so the basic idea was that because the airline was in fact long oil, because you could charge higher prices when oil prices went up, that you could... use that to buy a certain options strategy that would have been riskier without the extra operating revenue. Is that what you mean? Absolutely. All right. So what happens is now we're long fuel on one side on the ticket. We're short fuel because... to fly the plane, not to fly the aircraft, you need jet fuel to take off. So we're short fuel on one side, but long fuel on the other side. So now, What do we think about? We think about doing like a producer hedge. And that's one of the reasons why we did the strangle where we sold cults. Now, when we sold cults, they're not naked. Hm. Because, right, they had the surcharge in there protecting that call. So, yes, if the calls got taken out or, you know, they were exercised, yes, a surcharge would take care of that call. on those calls that you sold. So we protect them there. Now, on the downside, we've sold puts. Now, If the oil goes down and we're selling puts, right, it's good for us anyway. So, yes, we'll eat some loss on the puts. But the thing is, we're going to be buying cheaper jet. because it's going down in price. So this whole strangle or this strategy, there was no... for lack of a better word, nudity to it. And there were no naked parts to it. And we covered all bases. We looked only at direction. Not so much We didn't take a view of where oil was going to go What we did was We understood that There would be a price mean reversion. It was holding at 100 bucks. It would do that for five months. And we would come away either flat, slightly losing a little bit of money, or making a decent amount. And we kind of got lucky. It had to stay within a certain band, right? Correct. Okay, okay. So this is very interesting. I guess from the perspective of any... You know, again, I think in our heads, someone hears the word trader and they think someone at their computer trying to make money. Right. And every day you're trying to get more cash, etc. However you want to do it. to actually identify people the natural trade of the corporation. So what you discovered or what you were able to clarify is that because of the ticket charge, Country Airlines was structurally long-branded. So that allowed you to create this sort of position without a view. So how much is the job of anyone in your seat, either today or at a different airline or maybe even a different company who's so that they understand what is the company's sort of, I guess, natural exposure or natural direction to any given market. I've only worked for an airline in a corporate sense, so I can only talk about that. But what I can say is that the word hedging is a bit of a misnomer. It's actually a view. It's actually a trade. And it's a good word that you said that these traders in the corporate, they don't call themselves traders because that sentiment is a trade. [40:00] his compliance into a fit because they believe that hedging is good for them. So compliance goes ballistic. And, you know, they'll say, no, no, we're not trading, we're hedging. So what do we hedge? We're a consumer. We have to buy whatever we're consuming in order to lock that price in. If we're a producer, we've got to sell to make sure we lock in our revenue. that we made at the top. So the word... Trading is not very well accepted at corporates. Okay, that makes sense. They don't believe in it, and auditors don't like it either. But I think if I can find that little bit... of a tweak. where I can get something as a product and the product is linked to the underlying risk that I have, which is exposure to jet fuel. I'm sure in another company, you can find links like that. And then you can put on hedges, right? They'll protect you. Just like the food market, right? You know, it's like it's perishable, right? It's got to be within one day. I'm sure, right, that somebody's going to be able to find out, right, that... With certain techniques, they can prolong that. And by prolonging that, right now, they're long vegetables. They're not short. Something in that vein. I just want to hear the sort of stories of how much money you made from this particular hedge and what happened at Qatar Airways when, you know, when this was unveiled to your management. Okay, it was $130 million. And actually that year, our revenue side lost $65 million. So, if not for my hedge, I would have lost my But on top of that, because of my hedge, right, Going out the curve, we may have lost that money at that time, but because of that hedge and making money, I was able to give the revenue department the ability to cut fares. So Qatar Airways used to be a follower. They'd follow EK, sometimes even EY, right? So EK is Emirates, EY is Etihad. So they're always a follower. And when Emirates cut, then they cut fares. When Emirates put up the fares, they put up their fares. But... I worked with uncle and I gave him advantage, first mover advantage. And he took, he took advantage of that. And he cut fares by 20%. And then we led the market, right? And, you know, Sorry to say, bums on seats. we sold. I mean, you know, we had every plan that was nearly 80 to 90% full. So we will help give them that ability. And they were able to make use of it. So I think as with anything that you do in life, you always try to add value to that food chain. The music you love. I heart radio. Your favorite radio stations. Everywhere you go. The podcasts everyone's talking about. All in one place. And it's free. I heart radio. Whatever you want to hear. Listen anytime. Anywhere. Music. Radio. Podcasts. Unlimited audio. It's on the free I Heart Radio app. One app. No subscription. Always free. Grab the free app. I heart radio. Everywhere you go. Always free. app today. Since you brought up the other Middle Eastern airlines, I'm going to ask what is a potentially sensitive question, but I'm sure a lot of people will be wondering about this. There are many sensitive questions I could ask when it comes to the Middle Eastern airlines. But this one in particular, the UAE, Qatar, a lot of those regions are supposedly not drowning in oil, but they have a lot of oil. Why the need to source jet fuel externally in the first place? Why couldn't, you know, these countries subsidize, subsidize? I'm using air quotes here for those watching on video. Why couldn't they subsidize their airlines with, I don't know, exchanging Brent with a refinery down in China? wherever for a lower price jet fuel for their airlines. I think with the airline industry, because you have a hub. And then you have your spokes, right? So you fly all over the world, but everybody flies through the Middle East. Now... We can only take so much jet fuel on one aircraft and we go long haul, we've got to fill up on the other side. So, I mean, it's the other side who basically commands the price. So it's not us, right? I see. So yes, I mean, you know, with... Cut out petroleum, right? Okay, just... It's not the most pleasant of experiences dealing with QP because they had a subsidiary named WACODE. [45:00] W-O-K-Q-O-D or code. And they used to sell us jet fuel at 3.65 a gallon. And when we fly to Dubai and lift jet from Dubai, Chevron's selling it at 295 a gallon. So we were getting screwed 70% by our own national petroleum company. That's amazing. So, you know... When we took delivery of the 787s, the Dreamliners, We told the world that we were using them for training by going to Dubai and back, right, to train the crew. But actually, we were going there. Literally, we flew there on fumes, probably like, you know, we had like, Five tons or less, maybe. four, three or four. We were flying there on fumes and literally we cannot circle. Dubai airport once we have to land straight away. And when we land, we can lift 100 tons of fuel. You were tankering fuel from Dubai. Yes, yes. And we were putting it in our own tanks at Doha International Airport. And we had about storage capacity of about 9, 10 million gallons. So, you know, that's pretty decent. It will be a day's cover for the airline should we not get any jet fuel from anywhere else. We can still fly for a day. Interesting. Give us your sense of right now, the people who are in your seat or equivalent seats elsewhere in the industry, give us an update of what they're dealing with right now, September 29th, between the ticket revenue side, which I assume is booming, and then the price of, you know, the surging price of oil and refined products. I think with respect to airlines or respect to. Yeah, with respect to airlines. What is the what is the how are they doing on the sort of fuel side these days? I think they're very wary of the consumption hedging, and they're mainly passing it through to the customer right now. because they don't know what to do. Because, you know, A lot of airlines in 2020 lost a lot of money. Fuel hedging. Delta dropped over 1 billion. Let's just say a very highly ranked Asian airline basically lost. It's nearly 2 billion. And, yeah, so, you know, it's not easy to work or to see what the geopolitics are bringing you. But what you can do is look at the end of the day, it's a pass through to the customer. So you use your ticket, right, as your weapon of choice. So, and that's pretty much what I did as well, right? This pricing mechanism that I... you know, kind of thought up, I basically weaponized the revenue. Has anyone else used that structure since? You know something? I have no idea, but I was going to... I was... going to attend a treasury conference in Singapore to talk about what I had done. And my CEO said, no, go. You're not talking at that treasury conference, right? Because we do not want to give our secrets away because nobody else is doing it. And one of the reasons why they're not doing it is because, again, it's the auditors. It's the sovereign wealth funds that probably own some of the airlines that are not, they don't feel it's kosher. to sell oil because you're a consumer, I think it's a lack of understanding for most people and a lack of understanding for most treasurers in their roles. They cannot think about like a horse with blinders, they cannot only see that basically by hedging the airline and keeping it safe. All you see is buying fuel. Right. There's other aspects of the airline as well. And you've got to take all that into account and then cook up a strategy of your own and, you know, create something. So that you can benefit from it. So I realize that this isn't strictly an airline question right now, but it's in the news. It is a refined products topic. There's all this talk and it could happen. This idea of, you know, we have this diesel crisis in the United States. Diesel prices are surging. It's possible that the U.S. is going to implement a ban on diesel exports. When you hear this, what do you think about it? Okay, maybe it's not right for me to say this, but I think of taco, you know, Trump. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, but specifically on this question of whether a country will ban the export of a refined product and how it ripples through markets. Well, Russia's done that. And China's done that somewhat. All right. But Russia is the second biggest diesel exporter on the planet. [50:00] So a lot of diesel has been taken out. of the whole complex and Honestly, right now, Europe is pretty short and That's one of the reasons why London Castle has just gone through the roof. Also, this Xbox ban, a lot of it was rhetoric. So because of that rat trick, right, you had... diesel or heating oil in the US come down. Instead of go up. Because a lot of the gulf or pad three... in the United States is the kitchen. That's where all the refineries are. And so that's where all the product comes out of New York Harbor. Right. It's, you know, They don't have any access. They maybe have a small pipeline, but that's about it. For them, it's a seaborne trade market. for the Gulf to sell internally to New York for their jet fuel, their diesel or their heating well. So a lot of times what the East Coast does is they buy diesel from Europe. in order to make sure that they don't have a shortage at any one time. And So it now adds the point, right, that you've got the East Coast of the United States buying diesel. And London Gas Oil, of course, is benefiting from that and heating oil is now taking a hit. Most of the heating oil is going to Latin America anyway. So not very much is going to Europe, probably like 500,000 barrels per day. It's going to the ERA, 100,000 barrels a day to the UK and maybe 150,000 to the rest. Sorry, ERA is Europe. So yeah, it's not super significant. from the Gulf. But I think there's a U.S. Gulf Coast trade where they'll run an Afromax or they'll run a long-range two or maybe even a Panamax through the Panama Canal and they'll transport that product to Asia. So it's going from the U.S. Gulf Coast to Chibu in Tokyo or in Japan. Can't wait to keep my house in Connecticut. you this winter um david king thank you so much for coming on odd lots i should mention the paper if anyone wants further details it's available on ssrn it is fuel hedging in the 21st century what every airline can learn about proactively shaping revenue thanks so much david thank you very much for having me appreciate it Joe, I'm so glad we finally got someone to talk about fuel hedging in detail. I have to say, the story about Qatar Airways tankering oil from Dubai back to Doha is one of my now all-time favorite things. airline fuel stories my top story i've told this on the podcast before, but I think it's been years, was when Silverjet, the business class only carrier, sort of luxury airline carrier, when they were about to go out of business, their creditors cut credit lines for fuel spending. And so the CEO of the company was putting the entire fuel bill on his personal credit card. And the personal credit card the rewards points were for British Airways miles. So he ended up with a bunch of BA miles. That's amazing. That's grit. FedEx got its start, too, with a bunch of the founder putting a bunch of the debt on his personal credit card. It's pretty wild to think about. I thought that was great. I think the really interesting thing from that episode to me was... I know, I guess it's interesting, and I'm not surprised. They don't like the term traitors in the corporate context, but that's what they are. Right, you have to have a directional view. Selling calls and buying puts and all this stuff. But the idea is, again, like... A trader in the typical environment is just seeking to max out P&L. And this idea that it's like you don't have to take a directional view if you really understand the core, I guess, structural position of the company already on the market. And the job is to balance that out. And you can understand how complex it gets because, you know, this idea that like, OK, the revenue could go up during times of higher oil prices. could pass through. You think of like an airline, of course, they're short oil, right? Of course, implicitly short oil and that in certain environments, they could actually be implicitly long oil and you have to really identify that exposure. I think that's really interesting. No, totally. I think this is an underappreciated aspect of the airline business, which is there is that other lever to pull. And it's sort of it. [55:00] It reminds me of the bakery episode. Yeah, totally. Remember where we were talking about... how a baker in Chicago increases his prices when the cost of eggs goes up because everyone sees it in the news. There's a lot of elasticity, I guess, baked in to prices for airfares when you're having a big oil shock. But on the other hand, if we evolve into actual physical shortages, which is a possibility, I guess we'll see what happens then. which is that like the cost of everything is going up. And also people are flying like crazy. I mean, the numbers are really huge. And so it's like, at least if we were to only look at the airline industry like this, the global economy, the economy is hot. People are they people look at these sticker prices. They complain about how they know prices are going up. And yet total travel just keeps going up. It does not seem to have dented activity at all. This is a hot economy. All right. Shall we leave it there? Let's leave it there. The Odd Lots podcast. I'm Tracy Allaway. You can follow me at Tracy Allaway. And I'm Jill Weisenthal. You can follow me at The Stalwart. Follow our producers, Carmen Rodriguez at Carmen Armand, Dash O'Bennett at Dashbot, Kale Brooks at Kale Brooks, and Kevin Lozano at Kevin Lloyd Lozano. And for more Odd Lots content, go to Bloomberg.com slash Odd Lots, where we have a daily newsletter and all of our episodes. And you can share about all these topics 24-7 in our Joe and I to do more episodes on the airlines, then please leave us a positive review on your favorite podcast platform. And remember, if you are a Bloomberg subscriber, you can listen to all of our episodes absolutely ad free. All you need to do is find the Bloomberg channel on Apple Podcasts and follow the instructions there. Thanks for listening. Thank you.