Epel Finds Reframing Stress as Challenge Slows Cellular Aging

Andrew Huberman

Perceiving demands as threats and resisting unchangeable realities depletes mitochondrial energy and shortens telomeres, whereas adopting a challenge mindset preserves cellular vitality.

AI-assisted summary of Essentials: Manage Stress & Build Resilience | Dr. Elissa Epel — original source. Check the original for full context.

Source published: 2026-10-09

Key ideas

Psychological stress occurs when perceived environmental demands outstrip coping resources, with sustained mental rumination acting as the primary driver of modern chronic stress rather than external threats alone. (0:00)
Cognitive appraisal dictates physiology: viewing stressors as challenges enhances cardiac output and blunts pro-inflammatory responses, whereas perceiving them as threats triggers vasoconstriction, elevated cortisol, and accelerated telomere shortening. (10:27)
Chronic caregiving demands significantly suppress mitochondrial enzymatic respiration, but cultivating positive emotional states during evening hours reliably preserves cellular bioenergetics and protects long-term cardiovascular health. (18:30)
Practicing radical acceptance and 'dropping the rope' against unchangeable realities conserves metabolic energy and prevents the biological wear-and-tear caused by endless resistance to uncontrollable situations. (22:50)

Detailed notes

## Background This episode of Huberman Lab Essentials was published on YouTube by Andrew Huberman on October 8, 2026. Featuring Dr. Elissa Epel, Professor of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences at UCSF, the discussion focuses on how acute and chronic stress impact the brain and body, their links to cellular aging and mitochondrial health, and practical tools—including cognitive reframing, radical acceptance, and finding purpose—to cultivate resilience.

## TL;DR Dr. Elissa Epel explains that the physiological toll of stress stems not from unavoidable challenges themselves, but from sustained mental rumination, chronic sympathetic activation, and depleting cellular ATP reserves. She contrasts debilitating threat responses with adaptive challenge responses, demonstrating how cognitive reframing, or 'stress shields,' fosters cardiovascular efficiency and preserves telomere length. For unavoidable burdens such as chronic caregiving, Epel advocates for radical acceptance and a 'drop the rope' mindset to curb biological wear and tear. Ultimately, navigating stress effectively requires balancing active problem-solving with somatic receptivity, evening emotional restoration, and constructing a coherent personal narrative rooted in purpose.

## Atmosphere & style The dialogue strikes a calm, cerebral, and deeply empathetic balance between rigorous molecular psychiatry and grounded, practical wisdom. Dr. Epel speaks with compassionate authority and candid vulnerability—drawing openly on her own experiences as a caregiver—while Huberman acts as an engaged intellectual partner, synthesizing her cellular insights into practical mind-body frameworks. The atmosphere feels restorative and clarifying, transforming potentially intimidating biological markers of exhaustion into an empowering roadmap for emotional and somatic release.

## Bulletin - [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqMWvhvt0DQ&t=0s) Psychological stress occurs when perceived environmental demands outstrip coping resources, with sustained mental rumination acting as the primary driver of modern chronic stress rather than external threats alone. - [10:27](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqMWvhvt0DQ&t=627s) Cognitive appraisal dictates physiology: viewing stressors as challenges enhances cardiac output and blunts pro-inflammatory responses, whereas perceiving them as threats triggers vasoconstriction, elevated cortisol, and accelerated telomere shortening. - [18:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqMWvhvt0DQ&t=1110s) Chronic caregiving demands significantly suppress mitochondrial enzymatic respiration, but cultivating positive emotional states during evening hours reliably preserves cellular bioenergetics and protects long-term cardiovascular health. - [22:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqMWvhvt0DQ&t=1370s) Practicing radical acceptance and 'dropping the rope' against unchangeable realities conserves metabolic energy and prevents the biological wear-and-tear caused by endless resistance to uncontrollable situations.

## Key takeaways - [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqMWvhvt0DQ&t=0s) Acute stress followed by rapid biological recovery is an evolutionarily adaptive mechanism; the modern problem is the persistent psychological activation that prevents recovery. - [01:55](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqMWvhvt0DQ&t=115s) Managing rumination requires a three-bin framework: top-down cognitive reframing, bottom-up somatic interventions to metabolize stress, and environmental shifts that introduce safety signals. - [04:51](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqMWvhvt0DQ&t=291s) Persistent sympathetic vigilance and threat monitoring demand massive cellular ATP output from mitochondria, leading to biological exhaustion even in the absence of sustained cortisol spikes. - [07:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqMWvhvt0DQ&t=464s) Optimal aging does not mean avoiding stress; engaging in purposeful, challenging activities stimulates neuroplasticity and can increase hippocampal volume in older adults. - [10:27](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqMWvhvt0DQ&t=627s) Viewing a stressor as a challenge drives efficient blood flow and oxygenation to the brain via increased cardiac output, whereas a threat mindset causes peripheral vasoconstriction and high post-stress inflammation. - [13:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqMWvhvt0DQ&t=796s) Appraising autonomic arousal symptoms like tachycardia as empowering biological tools—being the 'lion' pursuing dinner rather than the panicked 'gazelle'—markedly improves cognitive performance and recovery. - [18:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqMWvhvt0DQ&t=1110s) Maternal caregivers under chronic demand exhibit blunted mitochondrial enzyme activity comparable to inherited mitochondrial disorders, directly explaining severe stress-induced fatigue. - [18:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqMWvhvt0DQ&t=1110s) Same-day evening moods correlate tightly with mitochondrial capacity; finding contentment or ease at the end of the day predicts reduced depression and cardiovascular risk a decade later. - [20:57](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqMWvhvt0DQ&t=1257s) Continually wishing unchangeable life situations were different constitutes unproductive suffering that correlates with greater general unhappiness and accelerated telomere attrition. - [22:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqMWvhvt0DQ&t=1370s) The 'drop the rope' metaphor illustrates the necessity of stopping futile struggles against immovable realities, redirecting finite cognitive and physical reserves toward actionable pursuits. - [24:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqMWvhvt0DQ&t=1450s) Tolerating uncertainty can be trained somatically by shifting from a tense, forward-perched stance to an intentionally receptive, leaning-back posture accompanied by slow respiration. - [26:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqMWvhvt0DQ&t=1592s) True stress resilience requires discernment between 'muscling through' solvable problems and 'releasing' non-negotiable situations to conserve vital metabolic resources. - [28:59](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqMWvhvt0DQ&t=1739s) Constructing written or spoken narratives through practices like journaling enables effective meaning-making, resolving trauma and anchoring identity in core values and purpose.

## Detailed walkthrough ### [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqMWvhvt0DQ&t=0s) Good vs. Bad Stress and the Modern Stress Response

Andrew Huberman welcomes Dr. Elissa Epel to discuss the multifaceted nature of stress, noting that while conventional wisdom often labels all stress as toxic or lethal, the reality is far more nuanced. Dr. Epel clarifies that from a scientific perspective, stress occurs whenever perceived environmental demands exceed available coping resources. Life inevitably brings challenges, and avoiding stressors entirely is impossible. Rather than the external events themselves, what truly matters is the physiological and psychological stress response. In an optimal scenario, an individual mounts an acute stress response when confronted with a challenge and then rapidly recovers—a vital, evolutionarily conserved survival mechanism that causes no lasting harm.

The primary issue in modern society is that stress responses are rarely allowed to resolve. Instead, humans sustain activation internally long after an event has passed. As Dr. Epel points out, "our thoughts are the most common form of stress," keeping physiological alarm systems perpetually triggered even in the absence of an immediate physical threat.

```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: Stress Response Dynamics accDescr: Diagram illustrating the healthy acute stress response versus modern chronic mental rumination.

subgraph Healthy["Adaptive Stress Response"] A["External Stressor / Demand"] --> B["Mount Acute Stress Response"] B --> C["Biological Recovery & Restoration"] end

subgraph Maladaptive["Chronic Modern Stress"] D["Perceived Threat / Overthinking"] --> E["Persistent Red Mind / Threat State"] E --> F["Sympathetic Dominance & ATP Exhaustion"] end ```

---

[01:55](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqMWvhvt0DQ&t=115s) Rumination, Body Awareness, and the Three Coping Bins

When Huberman asks whether overthinking and rumination should be tackled by rationalizing the problem or redirecting attention, Dr. Epel explains that the mind has a natural drive to gravitate toward perceived threats and attempt endless problem-solving. This traps individuals in a chronic "threat mode" or "red mind state." Because modern urban life habituates people to low-grade background tension, many do not even realize they are stressed until they physically check in on their posture—such as noticing clenched fists, tight shoulders, or a rigid jaw.

To halt rumination and overthinking, Dr. Epel organizes interventions into three distinct categories:

```mermaid flowchart LR accTitle: Three Bins for Managing Stress and Rumination accDescr: The three intervention buckets: Top-Down Mindset, Bottom-Up Somatic, and Environmental Changes.

subgraph Bins["Stress Intervention Bins"] B1["1. Top-Down (Mind)"] -->|"Reframing & Awareness"| R1["Beliefs & Mindset Shift"] B2["2. Bottom-Up (Body)"] -->|"Metabolize Stress"| R2["Somatosensory & Amygdala Regulation"] B3["3. Environment (Context)"] -->|"Safety Signals"| R3["Sensory Calming & Scene Change"] end ```

- **Top-Down Strategies (Mind Changes Body):** Cultivating metacognitive awareness to recognize that thoughts are not necessarily reality, alongside adopting positive mindsets and reframing techniques that allow the brain to release tension. - **Bottom-Up Strategies (Body Changes Mind):** Engaging in physical actions that metabolize and burn off physiological stress. These somatic interventions dampen amygdala reactivity and shift neural processing toward the somatosensory cortex. - **Environmental Modifications (Scene Change & Safety Signals):** Stepping away from triggering physical spaces (like an office or crowded city setting) and immersing oneself in environments reinforced with "safety signals," such as comforting pets, calming imagery, soothing scents, or music.

---

[04:51](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqMWvhvt0DQ&t=291s) Energetic Costs of Stress and Radical Acceptance

Dr. Epel outlines how stress operates across different temporal scales and why it is so physiologically taxing. A major avenue through which stress "gets under the skin" is chronic sympathetic nervous system dominance. When the body remains hypervigilant and constantly scans for danger, it mobilizes excessive amounts of energy. The acute and sustained stress responses demand immense quantities of cellular energy in the form of ATP produced by mitochondria; persistent vigilance inevitably leads to systemic exhaustion, even without massive spikes in circulating cortisol.

Stressors can range from moderate events requiring days or months of coping—where prioritizing daily restoration is critical—to long-term chronic stressors that last for years, such as caregiving for an ill loved one. For situations that cannot be directly modified, attempting continuous problem-solving only deepens suffering. Instead, adopting strategies like "radical acceptance" enables individuals to navigate uncontrollable conditions without incurring severe biological wear and tear. Epel's research shows substantial individual variance among caregivers: some experience accelerated cellular aging, while others maintain biological profiles as youthful as healthy control subjects.

- Chronic sympathetic vigilance rapidly depletes cellular ATP reserves generated by mitochondria. - Uncontrollable chronic stressors require acceptance-based strategies rather than endless analytical rumination. - Psychological resilience creates wide variance in biological aging among individuals confronting the same external adversity.

---

[07:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqMWvhvt0DQ&t=464s) Optimal Aging, Brain Plasticity, and the Analogy to Exercise

Addressing the distinction between optimal aging, typical aging, and accelerated aging, Dr. Epel emphasizes that an optimal life is not one devoid of stress. Living entirely without stress often reflects disengagement from meaningful pursuits that inherently involve challenge and vulnerability. She highlights a study in which retired older adults were placed into schools to tutor at-risk youth. Moving from a sedentary, low-demand lifestyle into an active role with purpose and caring relationships fostered a generative mindset. Notably, neuroimaging revealed that participants—particularly men—experienced measurable growth in the hippocampus during the program, proving that brain plasticity and cognitive vitality can be cultivated late in life.

Huberman draws a direct parallel between this dynamic and physical exercise. During a strenuous workout, transient markers look alarming: blood pressure surges, heart rate spikes, and cortisol rises dramatically. Yet these short-term physiological stressors induce favorable downstream adaptations, such as lower resting blood pressure, improved bone density, and better metabolic health. Huberman questions whether acute, well-resolved psychological stressors function similarly—acting as hormetic stimuli that reset energy mobilization thresholds and train resilience against future challenges.

[10:27](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqMWvhvt0DQ&t=627s) Threat vs. Challenge: The Biology of Psychological Stress

Short, intermittent bouts of physical exertion—such as high-intensity interval training (HIIT)—foster more than just aerobic conditioning; they build "stress fitness" by conditioning the nervous system to experience less rumination, anxiety, and depression. A parallel mechanism exists for psychological stressors. Regular engagement with moderate, manageable psychological demands builds stress resilience, training the system to view adversity as non-threatening. When two individuals encounter the exact same external stressor, their physiological responses can diverge entirely depending on their cognitive framing.

One person might perceive the situation as a direct threat to their physical survival or their social standing and ego. This threat response triggers an exaggerated surge in cortisol alongside peripheral vasoconstriction. Although blood pressure spikes in both threat and challenge states, in the threatened individual that elevation is driven by constricted blood vessels. Conversely, an individual who approaches the situation thinking, "I can do this. This is a great challenge and opportunity. I have what it takes," exhibits an adaptive hemodynamic profile characterized by increased cardiac output. Their blood pressure rises through efficient blood flow rather than vascular constriction, delivering superior oxygenation to the brain, facilitating sharp problem-solving, and sustaining a positive outlook. Laboratory studies demonstrate that individuals exhibiting a challenge response show markedly lower pro-inflammatory responses within one to two hours post-stressor and tend to possess longer telomeres, signaling a slower biological rate of aging.

```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: Threat vs Challenge Stress Pathways accDescr: Comparison of hemodynamic, cellular, and psychological divergence between threat and challenge responses. subgraph STIMULUS["Identical Moderate Stressor"] S["Demanding Situation"] end

subgraph THREAT["Threat Response: Egocentric / Survival Fear"] T1["High Cortisol & Vasoconstriction"] --> T2["Spiked BP via Restricted Flow"] T2 --> T3["Pro-inflammatory Surge"] T3 --> T4["Slower Recovery & Accelerated Aging"] end

subgraph CHALLENGE["Challenge Response: Opportunity / Capability"] C1["Increased Cardiac Output"] --> C2["Spiked BP via Increased Blood Flow"] C2 --> C3["Enhanced Brain Oxygenation"] C3 --> C4["Low Inflammation & Telomere Maintenance"] end

S -->|"Perceived as Threat"| T1 S -->|"Perceived as Challenge"| C1 ```

- **Threat Response Markers:** Characterized subjectively by embarrassment, fear of failure, visceral gastrointestinal tension, and a pounding heart; physiologically marked by pronounced vasoconstriction, systemic inflammation, slower recovery times, and accelerated cellular aging. - **Challenge Response Markers:** Characterized by arousal, focus, and activation; physiologically marked by dilated vasculature, elevated cardiac output, preserved telomere length, and rapid baseline recovery.

---

[13:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqMWvhvt0DQ&t=796s) Stress Shields and the Lion Mindset

Transitioning from a threat state to an empowered challenge response does not require an aggressive or combative posture; rather, it depends on identifying tailored cognitive anchors known as "stress shields." These internal affirmations must feel authentic and believable to the individual. A vivid behavioral metaphor illustrates the difference between these states: consider a lion chasing a gazelle across the savanna. Both animals experience elevated blood pressure and an intense surge of autonomic arousal, but their physiological realities are opposites. The gazelle experiences pure threat and acute vasoconstriction because its survival is on the line. The lion, by contrast, mounts an energized challenge response driven by anticipation and the prospect of securing dinner for the coming days. Adopting the mantra to "be the lion instead of the gazelle" serves as a reminder that physiological arousal can signify pursuit and opportunity rather than impending destruction.

A major driver of stress is the secondary distress caused by noticing one's own physical symptoms—becoming "stressed by stress" when the heart starts racing. To disrupt this cascade, individuals can reframe somatic arousal as an asset, reminding themselves: "This stress response is empowering. This is going to help me cope. My body is excited. My body is doing just what it should right now." Extensive laboratory studies by affective scientists such as Dr. Wendy Berry Mendes demonstrate that teaching individuals to reappraise physiological stress signals as functional assets significantly enhances cognitive performance, improves emotional tone, accelerates post-stress recovery, and fosters effective problem-solving under pressure.

- **Effective Stress Shields:** Self-directed statements such as "I got this," "I have what it takes," and "I can get through it." - **Somatic Reappraisal:** Viewing tachycardia and autonomic arousal as biological preparation designed to deliver resources to the brain and muscles rather than as evidence of harm or panic.

---

[18:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqMWvhvt0DQ&t=1110s) Mitochondrial Health, Caregiving, and Daily Mood

The physiological footprint of chronic psychological burden extends directly down to cellular bioenergetics. In collaborative research conducted with Dr. Martin Picard, investigators examined mitochondrial enzymatic capacity in peripheral blood cells among high-demand maternal caregivers of children with autism compared to mothers of neurotypical children. Mothers under relentless caregiving demands exhibited significantly dampened mitochondrial enzyme activity—in some cases dropping to levels typically observed in individuals with inherited mitochondrial disorders. Because mitochondria generate cellular ATP, this bioenergetic suppression directly explains the profound physical and mental exhaustion experienced during chronic stress.

```mermaid flowchart LR accTitle: Daily Mood Buffering Mitochondrial Health accDescr: How daily evening emotional states correlate with cellular energy and long-term health outcomes. subgraph CHRONIC["Chronic Stress Baseline"] CS["High Daily Demands\ne.g., Caregiving"] --> MD["Risk of Dampened\nMitochondrial Enzymes"] end

subgraph BUFFER["Resilience Factor"] EM["Evening Positive Mood\nContentment & Ease"] --> MA["Maintained ATP &\nMitochondrial Vitality"] end

subgraph OUTCOME["Long-Term Trajectory"] MA --> H["Decade-Later Outcomes:\nReduced Depression &\nCardiovascular Health"] end

MD -.->|"Counteracted by"| BUFFER ```

Crucially, the study uncovered that caregivers who preserved robust mitochondrial enzyme capacity reported substantially higher frequencies of positive emotions throughout the day, particularly during the evening hours. Across daily diary studies, the emotional state sustained at the conclusion of a demanding day serves as an extraordinarily strong predictor of long-term health trajectories. Individuals capable of finding contentment, ease, confidence, or joy at night—even in the wake of severe daytime stress—exhibit lower rates of clinical depression, reduced cardiovascular disease, and lower rates of premature mortality a decade later. While distant mood measurements show weak associations, same-day mood correlates tightly with same-day mitochondrial enzyme activity, suggesting that cellular power plants remain intimately sensitive to daily emotional shifts.

- **Caregiving Strain:** Mothers managing chronic, round-the-clock caregiving duties showed marked reductions in mitochondrial respiration and enzymatic output, blunting overall energy production. - **The Evening Pivot:** Sustaining micro-moments of peace or positive affect at bedtime protects against the biological wear-and-tear of high-stress days.

---

[21:24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqMWvhvt0DQ&t=1284s) Chronic Stress and Radical Acceptance

When confronting chronic, unchangeable life situations—such as a family member living with an irreversible illness or a demanding circumstance from which one cannot exit—conventional problem-solving strategies fail. Holding the implicit belief that "bad things shouldn't happen" inherently amplifies vulnerability, breeding feelings of victimization and futile resistance. When individuals expend cognitive energy endlessly worrying, wishing reality were different, or attempting to resolve an inherently unresolvable situation, they inadvertently lock their nervous system into an unremitting chronic stress state.

Mitigating non-negotiable stress requires cultivating "radical acceptance." This process begins with an honest audit of one's current burdens: identifying every ongoing demand and circling the specific realities that cannot be changed. Confronting the unchangeable allows an individual to consciously step back, halt unproductive rumination, and mentally "put the baggage down." Freeing up the mental and physiological space once consumed by futile struggle does not mean approving of the unwanted circumstance; rather, it liberates the biological reserves necessary to adapt, preserve health, and cultivate genuine resilience within challenging constraints.

- **The Pitfall of Non-Acceptance:** Continuously analyzing or wishing away permanent realities perpetuates chronic sympathetic activation and drains mitochondrial energy reserves. - **The First Step of Radical Acceptance:** Differentiating controllable problems from fixed realities, acknowledging "this isn't going to go away," and relinquishing the exhausting effort to control the uncontrollable.

[20:57](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqMWvhvt0DQ&t=1257s) Chronic Stress, Radical Acceptance, and Caregiver Well-Being

Radical acceptance is not a one-time intellectual realization; it is an ongoing practice designed to loosen our grip on unwanted situations rather than letting them dictate our well-being and occupy precious attentional "mental real estate." Dr. Elissa Epel shares that she considers herself an expert in this discipline primarily out of personal necessity as a caregiver. In that role, she constantly has to pivot away from the impulse to wish circumstances were different or the compulsion to solve unfixable problems, moving instead toward a radical acceptance that "this is how things are right now." By recognizing the internal freedom that exists even within rigid constraints, individuals can learn to live well alongside difficult situations.

To quantify this dynamic, Dr. Epel and her research team studied caregivers by sampling their psychological states in the evenings. Using ecological momentary assessments, they pinged participants and asked two core questions: first, how much during the previous five minutes had they been wishing things were different, and second, how engaged and focused were they on whatever activity they were performing right before the ping. While caregivers engaged in significantly more of what Dr. Epel characterizes as "suffering"—longing for a different reality rather than remaining present—this negative mental state predicted poorer outcomes across all subjects, regardless of whether they had caregiving duties. Longing for alternate realities instead of engaging with the evening predicted greater general unhappiness and, strikingly, shorter telomeres ("shorter tails"), pointing to a cumulative, biological wear-and-tear built up over days, months, and years.

```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: Radical Acceptance vs Unconscious Resistance accDescr: Flowchart contrasting wishing things were different against radical acceptance and showing biological outcomes. subgraph Resistance["Chronic Resistance"] A["Unwanted Situation"] --> B["'Wishing things were different'"] B --> C["Mental rumination & lack of presence"] C --> D["Higher unhappiness & shortened telomeres"] end subgraph Acceptance["Radical Acceptance"] E["Unwanted Situation"] --> F["Accept 'this is how things are right now'"] F --> G["Free up cognitive & emotional resources"] G --> H["Living well within controllable domains"] end ```

[22:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqMWvhvt0DQ&t=1370s) The "Drop the Rope" Metaphor for Uncontrollable Stressors

To make radical acceptance tangible, Dr. Epel uses the metaphor of playing tug-of-war against an immovable brick wall. When facing a painful or tragic situation, a person grips the rope and pulls relentlessly because they care deeply; they are driven by genuine love, compassion, and a desire to make things better for a loved one, a group, or an important cause. However, because the wall cannot budge, days of continuous pulling produce no external progress—the only tangible result is chafed, bleeding hands.

The essential intervention is simply telling oneself to "drop the rope." The wall remains standing and will not move, but releasing the rope frees one's hands and cognitive bandwidth, allowing those resources to be directed toward areas of life where personal agency actually exists. Andrew Huberman finds this mental model exceptionally compelling, emphasizing the immense energetic toll exacted by tugging on a barrier with zero prospect of resolution, and noting how immediately helpful it is to liberate those physiological resources for actionable endeavors.

- **The Brick Wall:** Represents an immutable, uncontrollable life reality or crisis. - **Pulling the Rope:** The well-intentioned but depleting urge to solve the unsolvable, resulting only in personal chafing and chronic exhaustion. - **Dropping the Rope:** An active mental release that frees physiological resources and attention for areas where agency still exists.

[24:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqMWvhvt0DQ&t=1450s) Tolerating Uncertainty: Posture and Somatic Receptivity

Human beings possess an intense drive for control, craving predictability about the future because knowing what lies ahead allows the nervous system to drop its guard and relax. Constant vigilance and looking ahead for potential threats sap energy, which makes high tolerance for uncertainty an exceptionally rare and powerful resilience trait. Individuals comfortable with an ambiguous future suffer from significantly lower rates of anxiety and depression and demonstrate far faster physiological recovery following acute stressors. Reframing the future as a mysterious, unfolding process allows uncertainty to be approached with curiosity and delight rather than dread.

Dr. Epel highlights an embodied somatic exercise for confronting uncertainty that she adopted after noticing her own Type-A tendencies following meditation retreats, where she would immediately transition from deep relaxation to a tense, forward-leaning posture hunting for a to-do list:

- **The Forward Alert Stance:** Sitting perched forward, hyper-vigilant, actively attempting to anticipate and control the next second of time. - **The Receptive Shift:** Intentionally leaning back, relaxing the posture, and taking slow, deliberate breaths. - **Psychological Effect:** Signals to the nervous system a transition from an aggressive "go mode" into a receptive state, letting time come forward and meeting whatever arises with curiosity rather than preemptive force.

[26:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqMWvhvt0DQ&t=1592s) Taking Action vs. Letting Go: Muscling Through vs. Surfing the Waves

Huberman observes a central tension running through stress literature and mind-body interventions: roughly half the advice urges adopting an aggressive, "forward center of mass" to confront challenges head-on, while the other half prescribes receptive, letting-go modalities. Rather than viewing these as mutually exclusive opposites, he suggests they form a complementary behavioral toolkit. The aggressive forward stance affords high agency but exacts an undeniable energetic tax proven by decades of psychiatric research; conversely, leaning back conserves metabolic energy, even if it feels like it offers less immediate direct control.

Dr. Epel agrees, synthesizing the dynamic into knowing when to "muscle it" versus when to "release it." True wisdom lies in discernment: when proactive effort can bear fruit, one should lean in and do the work; when confronting an immovable brick wall, the healthiest move is radical release. She compares life to floating in an ocean subject to endless small and large waves. Because waves will perpetually roll in, the goal is not to eradicate the swell, but to cultivate skillful surfing—learning when to ride the wave, when to paddle gently, and when to relax into safety.

[28:59](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqMWvhvt0DQ&t=1739s) Narrative, Journaling, and Sense of Purpose

Huberman asks whether empirical data support the practice of creating written or spoken narratives, such as journaling, to navigate difficult circumstances. Dr. Epel confirms that developing a coherent narrative is absolutely critical for meaning-making, resolving trauma, and anchoring a sense of personal identity amidst hardship. In psychological stress research, the objective event itself is far less determinative of health outcomes than how that event is perceived, structured into a story, and met with behavioral responses.

Constructing a narrative centered on personal purpose elevates human cognition beyond simple animal survival. Unlike laboratory rodents or primates, humans uniquely possess the cognitive capability to project far into the future, contemplate their mortality, and deliberately choose the values that will define how they live, how they die, and how they will ultimately be remembered. Dr. Epel remarks that this conscious framing is what truly "helps us rise above this being monkeys in clothes." In closing, Huberman expresses his deep gratitude for her life's work and research on stress resilience, and Epel thanks him for offering a dedicated educational platform through the podcast.

## Notable quotes > [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqMWvhvt0DQ&t=0s) our thoughts are the most common form of stress — Dr. Elissa Epel

> [10:27](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqMWvhvt0DQ&t=627s) I can do this. This is a great challenge and opportunity. I have what it takes

> [13:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqMWvhvt0DQ&t=796s) be the lion instead of the gazelle

> [13:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqMWvhvt0DQ&t=796s) This stress response is empowering. This is going to help me cope. My body is excited. My body is doing just what it should right now.

> [21:24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqMWvhvt0DQ&t=1284s) bad things shouldn't happen

> [21:24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqMWvhvt0DQ&t=1284s) put the baggage down

> [21:24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqMWvhvt0DQ&t=1284s) this isn't going to go away

> [20:57](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqMWvhvt0DQ&t=1257s) this is how things are right now — Dr. Elissa Epel

> [22:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqMWvhvt0DQ&t=1370s) drop the rope — Dr. Elissa Epel

> [26:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqMWvhvt0DQ&t=1592s) muscle it — Dr. Elissa Epel

> [26:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqMWvhvt0DQ&t=1592s) release it — Dr. Elissa Epel

> [28:59](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqMWvhvt0DQ&t=1739s) helps us rise above this being monkeys in clothes. — Dr. Elissa Epel

## Mentioned Dr. Elissa Epel, Andrew Huberman, University of California, San Francisco (UCSF), Eight Sleep, AG1, ROKA, Dr. Wendy Berry Mendes, Dr. Martin Picard

## Video description In this Huberman Lab Essentials episode, my guest is Dr. Elissa Epel, PhD, a Professor of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences at the University of California, San Francisco (UCSF). We discuss how acute and chronic stress affect the body and brain, including their links to cellular aging and mitochondrial health. We also explain tools to reduce rumination, reframe stress as a challenge and build resilience, as well as how radical acceptance and a sense of purpose can help us navigate stressors we cannot change.

Show notes: https://go.hubermanlab.com/fqVKGyP

Huberman Lab Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hubermanlab Threads: https://www.threads.net/@hubermanlab X: https://x.com/hubermanlab Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/hubermanlab TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@hubermanlab LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrew-huberman

Dr. Elissa Epel LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/elissa-epel Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/elissa.epel X: https://x.com/Dr_Epel

Timestamps 00:00:00 Elissa Epel 00:00:22 Good & Bad Stress, Stress Responses 00:01:55 Rumination, Body Awareness 00:03:23 Tools: Mindset, Body & Environment 00:04:51 Acute & Chronic Stress, Energy & Recovery 00:07:44 Sponsor: Eight Sleep 00:09:27 Healthy Aging, Purpose & Brain Health 00:10:54 Stress Resilience, Threat vs. Challenge 00:14:40 Tool: Reframe Stress, “Stress Shields” 00:16:54 Sponsor: AG1 00:18:30 Mitochondrial Health, Caregiving & Daily Mood 00:21:24 Chronic Stress, Tool: Radical Acceptance 00:25:19 Tool: “Drop the Rope”, Uncontrollable Stressors 00:26:48 Uncertainty, Tool: Posture & Slow Breathing 00:29:10 Sponsor: ROKA 00:30:34 Taking Action vs. Letting Go 00:32:55 Journaling, Narrative & Purpose 00:34:15 Acknowledgements

Disclaimer & Disclosures: https://www.hubermanlab.com/disclaimer

[Source](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqMWvhvt0DQ)

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Epel研究发现：将压力重构为挑战可延缓细胞衰老将外界要求视作威胁并抗拒不可改变的现实会耗竭线粒体能量并缩短端粒，而采取挑战心态则能维持细胞活力。 Elissa Epel 博士解释称，压力造成的生理损耗并非源于不可避免的挑战本身，而是来自持续的心理反刍、长期的交感神经激活以及细胞 ATP 储备的耗竭。她将致弱性的威胁反应与适应性的挑战反应进行对比，展示了认知重构（即“压力盾牌”）如何提升心血管机能效率并维持端粒长度。面对长期照护等不可避免的重负，Epel 提倡通过全然接纳和“放下绳索”的心态来减少生物学磨损。归根结底，有效应对压力需要在积极解决问题与身体感受性、晚间情绪修复以及构建根植于人生目标的连贯个人叙事之间取得平衡。心理压力的产生源于个体感知到的环境要求超出了自身应对资源，而持续的心理反刍是现代慢性压力的主要诱因，而非单纯源自外部威胁。 (0:00) 认知评估决定生理反应：将压力源视为挑战能够增加心输出量并减弱促炎反应，而将其视为威胁则会引发血管收缩、皮质醇升高以及端粒加速缩短。 (10:27) 长期照护负担会显著抑制线粒体酶呼吸作用，但在晚间培养积极的情绪状态能切实保护细胞生物能量学功能，维护长期心血管健康。 (18:30) 面对不可改变的现实，践行全然接纳并学会“放下绳索”，能够保存代谢能量，防止因对失控局面无休止的抗拒而造成生物学磨损。 (22:50)

Reading summary

Dr. Elissa Epel explains that stress becomes biologically toxic not through unavoidable external demands, but when sustained cognitive rumination converts acute challenges into chronic threat states. She outlines how reframing somatic arousal, applying radical acceptance, and supporting cellular bioenergetics can prevent accelerated aging and build psychological resilience. Threat Versus Challenge Cardiovascular Profiles (10:27) Dr. Epel clarifies that the physiological stress response is an adaptive survival mechanism when mounted acutely and resolved quickly. In modern settings, however, sustained overthinking often traps individuals in persistent threat states. While both threat and challenge appraisals elevate heart rate and blood pressure, their biological mechanisms differ. A threat appraisal triggers peripheral vasoconstriction, high cortisol surges, delayed recovery, and pro-inflammatory spikes. In contrast, viewing stressors as manageable challenges induces an adaptive hemodynamic response marked by dilated vasculature and elevated cardiac output. This response optimizes cerebral oxygenation and supports cognitive performance. Furthermore, Dr. Epel notes that individuals exhibiting challenge responses demonstrate reduced systemic inflammation within one to two hours post-stress and maintain longer telomeres, indicating a slower biological rate of cellular aging. Multi-Tiered Coping and Somatic Reappraisal (1:55) To halt rumination, Dr. Epel categorizes interventions into three bins: top-down cognitive reframing, bottom-up somatic shifts, and environmental modifications. Top-down strategies use metacognition to recognize that thoughts are not necessarily reality. Bottom-up practices metabolize stress through physical movement and posture, dampening amygdala reactivity while activating the somatosensory cortex. Environmental adjustments introduce sensory "safety signals," such as shifting into calming physical spaces. A key top-down intervention targets secondary distress—becoming anxious over somatic symptoms like tachycardia. Drawing on research by Dr. Wendy Berry Mendes, Epel emphasizes that viewing elevated heart rates as functional biological preparation improves cognitive execution and hastens recovery. Adopting internal "stress shields"—such as framing oneself as a pursuing lion rather than a fleeing gazelle—reinterprets autonomic arousal as readiness rather than impending danger. Mitochondrial Exhaustion and Evening Mood Buffers (18:30) Chronic psychological stress exacts a measurable toll on cellular energy production. Constant sympathetic vigilance rapidly depletes mitochondrial ATP. In collaborative research with Dr. Martin Picard studying high-demand maternal caregivers of children with autism, Dr. Epel observed suppressed mitochondrial enzyme capacity in peripheral blood cells, in severe cases matching levels seen in inherited mitochondrial disorders. Crucially, caregivers who maintained robust mitochondrial activity reported more frequent positive emotions, especially in the evening. Diary studies revealed that same-day mood tracks directly with same-day mitochondrial enzyme capacity. Experiencing ease, contentment, or joy at bedtime counteracts daytime biological wear-and-tear, correlating with lower rates of depression, fewer cardiovascular issues, and decreased premature mortality ten years later. Radical Acceptance for Uncontrollable Demands (20:57) When confronting unchangeable realities like chronic illness, standard problem-solving creates futile friction. Ecological momentary sampling showed that caregivers who spent significant time wishing circumstances were different experienced heightened unhappiness and shorter telomeres. Dr. Epel likens struggling against immutable facts to a tug-of-war against an immovable brick wall; "dropping the rope" relinquishes unresolvable struggles to conserve physiological resources for areas where personal agency still exists. Somatic adjustments reinforce this acceptance. Shifting from a tense, forward-perched posture into a relaxed, leaning-back position with deliberate breathing signals receptivity rather than hypervigilance. Dr. Epel and Andrew Huberman frame resilience as discerning when to proactively "muscle through" solvable problems versus when to "release" unalterable stressors, grounding this choice in a broader narrative of purpose. Dr. Epel concludes that optimal aging does not mean avoiding stress, as purpose-driven challenges promote neuroplasticity—exemplified by hippocampal growth in older adults tutoring youth. Rather, resilience relies on swift physiological recovery from acute stressors and the capacity to accept fixed life burdens without chronic cellular strain.

Source quotes

[0:00] Dr. Elissa Epel: our thoughts are the most common form of stress [10:27] I can do this. This is a great challenge and opportunity. I have what it takes [13:16] be the lion instead of the gazelle [13:16] This stress response is empowering. This is going to help me cope. My body is excited. My body is doing just what it should right now. [21:24] bad things shouldn't happen [21:24] put the baggage down [21:24] this isn't going to go away [20:57] Dr. Elissa Epel: this is how things are right now [22:50] Dr. Elissa Epel: drop the rope [26:32] Dr. Elissa Epel: muscle it [26:32] Dr. Elissa Epel: release it [28:59] Dr. Elissa Epel: helps us rise above this being monkeys in clothes.

Original transcript

[0:00] Welcome to Huberman Lab Essentials, [0:02] where we revisit past episodes for the [0:04] most potent and actionable science-based [0:06] tools for mental health, physical [0:08] health, and performance. [0:11] I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor [0:13] of neurobiology and opthalmology at [0:15] Stamford School of Medicine. And now for [0:18] my discussion with Dr. Alyssa Epel. Dr. [0:20] Epel, welcome. [0:22] >> Thank you. [0:22] >> So great to have you here. I'd love to [0:24] just kick off by you explaining a little [0:26] bit about the different forms of stress. [0:28] You know, we hear stress, stress is bad, [0:30] stress can kill us. No one likes to feel [0:32] stressed, etc. But as you and I both [0:35] know, that's not the entire picture. So, [0:37] love for you to just educate us a bit on [0:39] what stress is and what it isn't, where [0:42] it can be problematic, and where perhaps [0:44] it can even be beneficial. Mhm. [0:46] >> So, as a stress scientist, it is a word [0:51] I use a lot, but it has to be broken [0:54] down because it has so many different [0:56] kind of dimensions and meanings. So, [0:58] there's good and bad stress, there's [1:00] acute and chronic stress, and you know, [1:03] technically it just means anytime we [1:05] feel overwhelmed that we feel like the [1:08] demands are too much for our resources. [1:11] So that's kind of a a very technical way [1:13] to put it, but really so much of life is [1:16] about meeting challenges and we're never [1:20] going to get rid of different stressful [1:22] situations in life. If anything, they [1:24] are increasing. And so it really comes [1:27] down to not the stressors of what's [1:30] happens to us, but really how we [1:32] respond, the stress response. So when [1:35] something happens, we mount a stress [1:37] response and we recover. And that's [1:40] beautiful. no harm done. We need that. [1:42] That's why we're here still alive is [1:44] that survival response. It's it's a [1:47] problem these days of just we keep it [1:49] alive in our head. We keep it alive with [1:51] our thoughts. Our thoughts are the most [1:53] common form of stress. [1:55] >> What to your knowledge is the best way [1:57] or what are the best ways for us to [2:01] manage overthinking and ruminating on [2:04] stressful topics? Should we work with [2:06] them in the sense that we try and [2:08] rationalize or understand the basis of [2:12] the stress or should we try and divert [2:14] our thinking away? [2:15] >> I like to bin it in three um three [2:18] categories. So one is we well I'll just [2:22] say first of all we have to have some [2:25] awareness of how our mind works or we're [2:27] just like you know a subject to thinking [2:31] our thoughts are real thinking that it's [2:33] helpful to keep ruminating and problem [2:35] solving because that's our tendency is [2:38] to go toward whatever we think there's [2:40] threat or risk and to problem solve [2:42] that. You could just be stuck there all [2:44] day in this kind of threat mode or red [2:46] mind state. And that's just a shame. We [2:49] don't need to turn on that stress [2:52] response all the time. But that's where [2:54] we are as a society. We're so used to [2:56] feeling daily stress from our urban and [3:00] modern life that we're we don't notice [3:02] it. We're just used to it. And so we're [3:04] going through the day with kind of like [3:05] clenched hands. And just, you know, for [3:08] listeners, just even just taking a check [3:09] in now and noticing [3:12] how you might be holding stress in your [3:14] body. That's a huge clue. It's a huge [3:17] place where we accumulate tension. So, [3:19] we might not be aware that we're [3:21] stressed, but we're clenching our hands. [3:23] So um going back to this notion of [3:25] overthinking, what are the tools that um [3:28] are most efficient for dealing with [3:31] overthinking or ruminating uh when [3:34] people just sort can't seem to let go of [3:37] the thing that's the stress or thinking [3:39] about not the stress in their body but [3:41] the thing that caused the stress the [3:43] difficult conversation the thing that [3:45] irked them. I wish I had one answer, but [3:48] I'm going to say lots of strategies [3:49] tackle that. And so in those three bins, [3:52] one are top- down strategies of [3:54] awareness and things that we can say to [3:56] ourselves since our beliefs and mindsets [4:00] can really help us release stress, view [4:03] stress more positively. The second [4:04] bucket is not that the mind changes the [4:07] body, but the body changes the mind. And [4:08] those are the set of strategies that you [4:10] tend to use the most, right? We're we're [4:12] working stress out of the body. We're [4:14] metabolizing it. we're burning it up and [4:17] we get relief. It changes our amygdala [4:19] activity and moves us to more an [4:22] experiential state where we're more in [4:24] our smata sensory cortex. And then the [4:26] third uh bucket is change the scene just [4:29] getting away from all the stress [4:32] triggers that we have in our office or [4:35] in the city and being in an environment [4:38] that we find calming. It might even be [4:41] just be a corner of the house, but [4:42] implanting what I call safety signals, [4:45] having things like comforting pets, [4:48] pictures, [4:50] smells, music. [4:51] >> When we talk about stress, it's clear [4:53] that there's short-term, medium-term, [4:55] long-term stress. You've studied all [4:57] these different forms of stress. If you [4:59] would be so kind as to just you give us [5:00] an overview of the different forms of [5:04] stress, how we can learn to recognize [5:06] those, pepper our minds with knowledge [5:08] about stress in all its um beautiful and [5:11] um not so beautiful forms. [5:13] >> When we think about stress, we usually [5:16] think feeling stress, you know, [5:17] reporting stress and that's important. [5:19] What our body is doing is also important [5:22] and it's not always related to our mind. [5:23] So measuring levels of the nervous [5:26] system and how vigilant we are is [5:28] another way that we can understand [5:30] stress. And that's particularly [5:32] important and interesting because that's [5:34] how stress gets under the skin. And we [5:36] might not be aware. We might not report [5:38] stress, but we're still holding tension [5:40] and being much more sympathetically [5:43] dominated. Meaning that our body is [5:45] vigilant and scanning for cues and we [5:47] don't feel safe. And so we're mobilizing [5:50] a lot more energy than we need to. And [5:54] stress is so expensive to the body. The [5:57] stress response uses a tremendous amount [6:01] of energy ATP that's made by our [6:04] mitochondria. And if we have that kind [6:07] of vigilant stress response on all day, [6:09] we're just going to feel exhausted. And [6:10] we don't necessarily get so threatened [6:12] that we release a lot of cortisol, but [6:14] our nervous system is going up and down [6:16] all day. Then there's kind of moderate [6:18] stressful events that maybe take days or [6:21] months to cope with. And what's [6:23] important there is that noticing like [6:26] right now am I really coping acutely [6:28] with something or can I restore? So that [6:31] kind of daily restoration is very [6:33] important. And then there are [6:35] chronically stressful situations that go [6:37] on for years. Many of us, not all of us, [6:39] but many of us have those in our life. [6:41] These are situations, I'll just use [6:44] caregiving as an example, that we can't [6:47] change. We We can't change other people. [6:50] We can't change certain situations or [6:52] resources. And we can be thinking about [6:56] them chronically problem solving, trying [6:59] to wish things were different, or we can [7:03] use acceptance, radical acceptance [7:05] strategies, and other strategies to live [7:08] well with them. That's a really [7:10] important strategy for people who feel [7:14] like their life is going to be stressful [7:16] forever because of X or Y. You can [7:19] actually be dealing with uncontrollable [7:22] chronic stress in ways that it's not [7:25] going to take that toll on your body. I [7:27] mean, I study chronic stress and how it [7:28] accelerates cell aging and I can tell [7:30] you there's so much variance between [7:32] people. People are so different. So [7:34] among caregivers, some of them look as [7:36] biologically young or younger than our [7:39] controls, people with no identifiable [7:42] big tough situation in their life. [7:44] >> In one of your papers, you distinguish [7:46] between optimal aging, typical aging and [7:50] accelerated aging. How does one measure [7:53] optimal versus accelerated aging? And [7:56] why would it be that some stress is [7:58] better than no stress when it comes to [8:01] aging? Uh ideally [8:04] >> having no stress means we're not really [8:06] living like we're not engaging in the [8:09] gifts of life which are inevitably have [8:12] some challenge and risk. And let me give [8:15] you an example. One study took elderly [8:18] people who retired and society kind of [8:21] labels them as you're kind of done with [8:23] your meaningful work in life and you are [8:26] pretty much not able to contribute to [8:28] society. I mean, there's so many [8:29] negative stereotypes that people then [8:30] kind of embody and then live. Um, and [8:33] this program brought them to work in [8:35] schools and tutor young at risk [8:38] students. And what happened to them is [8:41] they went from feeling maybe safe and [8:44] understressed to feeling [8:47] challenged but generative. They they [8:51] were feeling more purpose. They were [8:53] feeling like they were growing and they [8:55] were feeling like their day had more [8:58] meaning. They had these caring [9:01] relationships with the students. And in [9:04] the study they they took images of the [9:06] hippocampus and those who engaged in the [9:09] program particularly the men actually [9:11] had growth of their hippocampus during [9:14] this program. So at any stage in life we [9:17] can be growing and challenging ourselves [9:19] even in our much later years and growing [9:22] our brain and you know more than anyone [9:24] like what does that hypocample growth [9:26] mean for their well-being and their [9:29] cognitive function. I almost have to [9:31] wonder if it's like exercise where you [9:33] know so many people I think now [9:36] everybody hopefully understands that [9:38] exercise is going to lower blood [9:39] pressure, reduce resting heart rate, [9:41] improve muscularkeeletal function and [9:43] bone density, all that stuff. [9:45] >> But that if you took a snapshot of the [9:47] bodily response during exercise, blood [9:49] pressure is way, way up, heart rate is [9:51] way, way up. Stress hormones are way up. [9:53] Cortisol is through the roof during a [9:55] hard workout and immediately afterwards. [9:57] And yet that sets in motion a series of [9:59] adaptations that brings you to a better [10:00] place most of the time. Is there any [10:02] evidence that [10:05] short bouts of stress, provided that [10:06] they're managed well, meaning that we [10:09] don't spend the next 24 or 48 hours [10:11] ruminating on the stressor, but that [10:13] we're able to move through the stressor [10:14] and resolve it in some way, that that's [10:16] actually beneficial for us because of [10:18] the mobilization of energy stores and [10:20] maybe even changing our threshold for [10:23] reacting to stressors in the future. We [10:25] know as you said that physical stressors [10:27] when they're short and repeated like [10:30] highintensity interval training they are [10:33] promoting not just aerobic fitness but [10:36] stress fitness people feel less [10:38] rumination less depression less anxiety [10:40] so they're kind of tuning up the nervous [10:42] system what about psychological [10:44] stressors we know two things so one is I [10:47] do think that there is a level of [10:49] engagement with moderate stressors that [10:52] when we are used to them, we get fit and [10:56] our stress resilience builds, meaning [10:58] we're less threatened by them. Two [11:00] people can approach the exact same [11:01] stressor and one person is having a [11:05] pretty um overreactive stress response [11:08] where they basically are feeling their [11:10] survival is threatened. So, it's high [11:12] cortisol, high vasoc constriction and uh [11:16] blood pressure goes up equally in both. [11:18] But the person who's feeling super [11:20] threatened either their survival or [11:22] their social survival, their ego, their [11:25] blood pressure went up because of the [11:26] vasoc constriction. The other person who [11:28] is viewing the same stressor as I can do [11:31] this. This is a great challenge and [11:33] opportunity. I have what it takes. Those [11:36] types of thoughts generate a different [11:38] hemodynamic response which is actually [11:41] more cardiac output. So blood pressure [11:43] is going up but in this healthier way [11:45] more oxygenation to the brain better [11:47] problem solving they're able to maintain [11:50] this positive outlook. So we've measured [11:52] the threat challenge response in many [11:54] lab studies and we know lots of things. [11:56] So if you're having more of the [11:57] challenge response at the end of it [11:59] you're less inflamed. So just in the lab [12:02] within an hour or two we see that [12:04] they're they didn't trigger all that [12:05] pro-inflammatory response and their [12:08] tieumirs tend to be longer which is a [12:10] measure we can talk more about but [12:11] basically it looks like they have a [12:15] slower [12:16] speed of aging. So we could call this [12:18] kind of a to be really simplistic two [12:20] types of [12:22] psychological stress response. Feeling [12:24] threatened like you're going to fail, [12:26] you're embarrassed. That social pain [12:28] response we know well that feels [12:30] terrible. Um but that also that huge [12:32] stress response when we, you know, we [12:35] feel it in our stomach, our heart is [12:37] pounding. It's just an overexaggerated [12:40] response. that response biologically is [12:42] different and the thoughts that go with [12:45] it are different and we recover a lot [12:47] slower. And then there's the challenge [12:48] response which it's more of that kind of [12:51] activated excited response. And the [12:55] beauty is that there are lots of studies [12:57] out there done by emotions and social [12:59] psychologists that tilt people toward [13:02] the challenge response. We can actually [13:04] promote that challenge response. And so [13:06] when you asked about like is it good to [13:08] have a repeated stress response? Yes, if [13:11] it's if it's manageable, right? Then [13:13] we're kind of building the muscle of [13:15] stress resilience. [13:16] >> What are the sorts of things that people [13:18] I can do in order including me I should [13:21] say um can do in order to wage that [13:25] challenge response? Is this purely based [13:27] on mindset? Like instead of saying why [13:30] me, why this? Why now? I can't believe [13:32] this is happening. Is it a mental pivot [13:35] to okay this is a great opportunity for [13:38] growth I don't know how I'm gonna manage [13:40] this but I'll manage this you want to [13:41] stop me you got to kill me type of type [13:43] of mindset is that the switch that then [13:46] the body follows [13:47] >> the whole trick here is that people need [13:50] to find the the strength statements the [13:53] stress shields I call them that fit them [13:55] that feels right and that they believe [13:57] be the lion instead of the gazelle so [14:00] the lion and gazelle are both you know [14:02] high blood pressure high stress And the [14:04] lion's chasing the gazelle, but the g [14:06] the gazelle is having this total threat [14:08] basil constriction response cuz she [14:09] might die. The lion might get dinner, [14:12] right? So, it's needing to mount the [14:14] stress response because it's so excited [14:17] to get the tasty dinner for, you know, [14:19] the next few days. And so, the lion is [14:21] having that challenge response. And so, [14:23] we can remind ourselves, be the lion. [14:26] It's not that we're always lion or [14:27] gazelle. We get to shape that. There's [14:29] all these strategies and you got to use [14:31] what works for you. telling yourself, I [14:33] got this. I can do it. I can get through [14:35] it. I have what it takes. Those are all [14:38] good shields. And another set is, you [14:41] know, we some of us feel really stressed [14:43] out by stress. Like once we get feel our [14:45] heart racing, that leads to, oh no, you [14:49] know, this is bad for me. And so rather [14:52] than getting stressed by stress, we [14:54] actually want to remind ourselves that [14:56] this stress response is empowering. This [14:59] is going to help me cope. My body is [15:02] excited. My body is doing just what it [15:05] should right now. So that reframing in [15:08] studies by Wendy Mendes and others, my [15:10] my colleagues who do this reappraisal [15:12] research, they have basically trained [15:15] people to view stress as positive during [15:17] the stressful situations. In the lab, [15:20] people do better. They perform better. [15:23] They feel more positive emotion. They [15:24] problem solve better. They recover more [15:27] quickly. So pretty powerful stuff. I'd [15:30] love to talk a little bit about some of [15:31] the other health metrics that you've [15:33] explored. There's a graph in one of your [15:35] papers. It's the Peicard paper 2018. It [15:37] essentially describes the relationship [15:39] between mitochondrial health and mood in [15:42] the context of people who have different [15:44] type of mood tendencies. If you would be [15:47] willing to just kind of describe the top [15:49] contour of that study and some of the [15:50] the points that it that you find most [15:52] interesting. [15:53] >> Yeah, we've we've done these in-depth [15:54] studies where we are looking at people [15:56] under a lot of daily demand. caregivers [15:59] and then we look under look at you know [16:01] normal people parents of neurotypical [16:03] children who still have a lot of stress [16:05] but we then ask you know do people under [16:07] chronic stress have accelerated aging so [16:09] we look at tieumirs epigenetics [16:11] mitochondrial health and then what [16:14] explains those who look really good who [16:16] look resilient and don't look vulnerable [16:19] and so then we can find out like what's [16:20] the magic sauce in the day that protects [16:22] them from chronic stress so Martin Bear [16:25] my colleague who has been obsessed with [16:28] mitochondrial health as a pathway to [16:31] understanding both stress and really [16:34] health and disease. He has developed a [16:37] way to measure mitochondrial health in [16:39] humans. So we can measure a bunch of [16:41] enzymes and then we can adjust it for [16:43] how many mitochondria we have. So we [16:45] have this really nice index we can get [16:47] from the blood. And in this study of [16:49] young mothers who were who had either [16:52] typical children or children with [16:54] autism, we found that the caregiving [16:58] moms had significantly lower or dampened [17:03] mitochondrial activity. What that means [17:05] is they can't produce as much energy. So [17:09] if they're feeling more exhausted from [17:12] the chronic stress, we know why. It was [17:14] quite dramatic. Martin commented, "Some [17:17] of those low levels even looked like [17:18] people with some genetic reasons to have [17:21] low mitochondrial activity." But here's [17:23] the beauty of that study. We then get to [17:25] look within their day at their mood and [17:28] ask, "Well, what about the caregivers [17:30] who have really great mitochondrial [17:33] enzymes and and thus should be making a [17:36] lot of ATP?" They had more positive [17:39] emotions both waking up and in the [17:42] evening, but especially in the evening. [17:44] And what's so interesting that is all of [17:46] these daily diary studies of stress and [17:49] mood, one of the things we know that [17:52] matters for long-term health is how [17:55] positive you feel at night. So, [17:57] especially on a stressful day. So, at [17:59] the end of a stressful day, can you [18:00] muster some feelings of content, ease, [18:04] confidence, joy? Do you have any of that [18:07] or has it just wiped out your [18:08] positivity? And so for people who feel [18:12] either lower negative or higher [18:14] positive, they tend to have better [18:17] health trajectories. So like a decade [18:18] later, less depression, less heart [18:20] disease, less early death. So that's why [18:22] we care so much about daily moods. In [18:24] our study, it looked like the daily mood [18:27] was really quite correlated with the [18:29] mitochondria levels that same day. Then [18:32] we measured mood like, you know, days [18:34] away from that and it was much less [18:35] correlated. It's just our first study on [18:37] this, but it really leads us to think [18:38] that our mitochondria are sensitive to [18:42] our thoughts and our feelings probably [18:45] on a daily basis. So for those of us [18:48] that find ourselves in a in a state of [18:50] chronic stress, chronic stress of the [18:52] sort that really the stressor the fact [18:56] that a very close [18:58] >> relative or family member is dealing [19:01] with a lifelong condition or the fact [19:04] that um we can't extract ourselves from [19:07] a situation that we are not in full [19:10] agency to remove the stressor. radical [19:13] acceptance of that fact then can ratchet [19:15] into an understanding of okay and yet [19:19] there are tools that we can use to not [19:21] just offset the negative health effects [19:22] but maybe even thrive in the context of [19:24] this essentially turning what initially [19:27] was thought of as a curse into a [19:28] blessing at least biologically speaking [19:30] >> what do we know about best practices for [19:32] mitigating these essentially [19:34] non-negotiable stressors [19:37] >> I think it is partly how we view life [19:40] and our our purpose in our own life. [19:43] What's this game that we know we were [19:45] born into? And even just the idea that [19:48] bad things shouldn't happen sets us up [19:50] for vulnerability, to feel victimized, [19:53] to feel like we can't accept bad things [19:56] that have happened. So just stepping [19:58] back and asking everyone listening, do [20:02] you have a situation in your life that [20:05] is unwanted and you can't change? How [20:09] much time do you spend thinking about [20:11] this? The more we spend time trying to [20:14] problem solve or worry or just wishing [20:18] things were different, [20:21] the more we are creating a chronic [20:24] stress state. And so just even taking [20:29] that first kind of step back to get [20:31] perspective on what are the situations [20:33] in my life that stress me out and and [20:36] which of these can I circle those that I [20:38] can't change. Just that recognition of [20:41] this isn't going to go away is [20:44] incredibly [20:46] powerful because we can, as I say, put [20:50] the baggage down and give ourselves some [20:53] relief and some freedom from the big [20:55] space it holds in our mind and in our [20:57] body. And this is not a one-time thing. [21:00] It's a practice. Radical acceptance is [21:02] something we practice over and over to [21:05] help us loosen our grip on unwanted [21:09] situations, on letting them control our [21:12] well-being and taking up, you know, this [21:14] mental real estate that's so precious, [21:17] our attention. I'm an expert at this [21:19] because I have I'm a caregiver and I [21:23] often need to refocus from wishing [21:27] things were different, trying to solve [21:29] things to radical acceptance of this is [21:32] how things are right now. And by just [21:36] reminding ourselves that there is [21:39] freedom within that, that there are [21:41] things that you can do, you can actually [21:44] live better, live well with these [21:47] situations. So, let me tell you what we [21:48] found from our caregivers. We measure [21:50] where their mind is at night. We ping [21:52] them and we say, "In the last five [21:54] minutes, how much have you been wishing [21:56] things were different? How much have you [21:58] been engaged and focused in what you're [22:01] doing right right before we pinged you?" [22:04] And just those two questions tell us so [22:08] much about that person's well-being. And [22:11] actually, yes, the caregivers are doing [22:13] more of [22:15] what I'll call suffering, wishing things [22:17] were different, not being present for [22:19] their lives. But regardless of that [22:21] difference, whether people are a [22:23] caregiver or not, this negative minding [22:26] state of not being present for your [22:30] evening, wishing things were different [22:32] instead of being engaged, predicts [22:35] more unhappiness. [22:37] It predicts [22:39] shorter tails. [22:41] So it it suggests that it's a pattern [22:44] that has gone on for days, months, and [22:47] years that has been wearing on them. And [22:50] so some of the metaphors that I think [22:52] are helpful for this are think of this [22:54] unwanted situation and think of how [22:56] you're you're pulling a rope that's [22:59] attached to a brick wall. And you're [23:02] doing that because you care. You want [23:04] things to be better for yourself or this [23:06] person or a group. I mean, it's it's [23:09] something you're passionate about. And [23:11] so, you're pulling and pulling and every [23:13] day you're pulling and and you can't [23:15] move that brick wall. So, the only thing [23:17] that's happening is that you're chafing [23:18] your hands. What if you just drop the [23:21] rope? [23:23] I say that to myself. Drop the rope. [23:27] When I start get, you know, getting [23:28] going on trying to solve unsolvable [23:30] problems, the brick wall is still there. [23:32] It's never going to move. Yet, my hands [23:35] are free and so I can be freed up to [23:38] live in the ways that I do have control [23:41] over. [23:42] >> As you describe the this pulling on a [23:44] brick wall, I find it a very compelling [23:46] image. Um, and one that uh makes total [23:51] sense to try and drop the rope as you [23:53] describe it because of the incredibly [23:56] high energetic demand that pulling on [23:57] that rope represents. As you said, it's [23:59] sort of a way of diverting resources [24:02] towards something that has no [24:04] conclusion, [24:05] >> right? And in dropping the rope, you can [24:07] divert those resources towards other [24:09] things. [24:10] >> We [24:12] really, really, really love control. And [24:16] we want to control the future, [24:19] not just because it makes us feel [24:20] powerful and happy, but because then we [24:23] can relax. If we know what's going to [24:27] happen next, if it's predictable, [24:29] we're that much happier. We're not [24:32] vigilant and looking ahead and being [24:35] prepared for what might happen. Being [24:37] comfortable with uncertainty is a [24:40] beautiful but rare resilience factor. [24:42] People who tolerate uncertainty have [24:45] much less anxiety and depression. And [24:47] when stressful things happen, they get [24:49] over it more quickly. And I think there [24:51] are practices we can do that help us [24:54] feel ease with the uncertain future. [24:58] Some of these mindful check-ins, [25:00] noticing that we're carrying around [25:02] uncertainty, stress is one way. And then [25:07] reframing uncertainty [25:09] as the beauty of the mystery of life and [25:13] the freedom that we can feel when we [25:16] realize we don't control tomorrow. we [25:18] just go with it and we do our best and [25:21] what delight there is in just viewing [25:24] things with curiosity and just seeing [25:26] what emerges. So even just our posture, [25:29] here's an exercise for dealing with [25:30] uncertainty [25:32] instead of like kind of that alert [25:34] posture when we're like trying to take [25:35] it all in and predict the next second [25:37] and like just lean back [25:42] and take some slow breaths. We know [25:44] that's going to help orient us and [25:46] realize that we can actually face time [25:49] in that way by letting it come to us and [25:53] receiving what happens. And that's a [25:56] completely different body stance than [25:58] our usual go mode during the day. And [26:00] that's just a way of saying [26:03] I am in a you know receptive mode and [26:06] I'm going to just be curious about what [26:09] arises. [26:10] And so I actually learned that on a [26:11] meditation retreat because I tend to be [26:15] type A and I'll leave a retreat going [26:17] from like very relaxed to like that [26:20] leaning forward tense of like where's [26:22] the to-do list? And so carrying with me [26:24] that posture of like let [26:27] time unfold as it will without trying to [26:30] control things. [26:32] >> It's really interesting. It gets right [26:33] to the heart of something that I spent a [26:34] lot of time thinking about in the [26:36] context of stress management and also [26:39] just general thriving which is that I [26:42] think that about half of the messages [26:44] that we get related to stress and [26:46] mindbody interventions relate to [26:49] adopting this forward center of mass. [26:51] this idea of when challenge arises, you [26:54] smash into it, you go through it. On the [26:56] other hand, there are these stress [26:57] mitigation techniques, both mental and [26:59] physical, body oriented, mind oriented, [27:02] etc. that are more of the sort that you [27:04] described that are um they're not um [27:06] being back on your heels, so to speak, [27:09] like letting things bulldoze you, but [27:11] are more of this uh receptive mode. Do [27:14] you think it's fair for us to adopt a [27:16] sort of a general framework and model [27:18] that that perhaps people can adopt for [27:19] themselves if they like that of course [27:21] it's not an eitheror but that having [27:23] both of these in one's kit of tools [27:26] could be valuable um because one is less [27:30] energetically demanding but of course [27:32] offers less opportunity for agency [27:34] >> um or at least apparently so that's the [27:36] leaning back and then the the other [27:38] certainly gives an opportunity for [27:39] agency but we know from 100 years or [27:42] more of psychology and psychiatric [27:44] literature [27:45] >> and from the emerging literature on [27:47] stress mitigation that [27:50] >> it's work. It's not something that is [27:53] without a cost. It can get you far [27:55] better results than it were you to just [27:57] let stress bulldoze you, but that it's [28:00] work. And so we have to emphasize that [28:02] work um in very deliberate ways. [28:05] >> When we know it's productive, we should [28:07] work. And when we know there's a brick [28:09] wall, we should let go. So I think of it [28:11] I like this forward mass idea. I think [28:13] of it as you muscle it and or you [28:17] release it. And we need both. And so [28:20] that letting go is a really important [28:22] wise you know discerning way to mitigate [28:26] stress in the right situations in the [28:29] right time and you know we can't muscle [28:31] through everything right. So another way [28:32] I like to think about it is just the [28:35] waves of life. Like I mean we are in an [28:37] ocean and we have small waves, we have [28:40] big waves, but we're always going to be [28:41] hit by the next wave. And so it's this [28:45] skillful surfing or navigating that we [28:48] can do better, when we realize when we [28:52] control things, when we can't, when we [28:53] can truly feel safe and have ease versus [28:56] when we need to kind of gently paddle. [28:59] For people that are listening to this [29:00] and that and want to start to adopt [29:02] practices, do you think that spending [29:04] some time creating a written or a spoken [29:08] narrative is helpful? I mean, we hear [29:10] this, but are there any data that [29:12] support the use of journaling as a as a [29:14] tool? [29:15] >> Definitely. Creating a coherent [29:17] narrative is critical to our ability to [29:22] make sense, find meaning, find [29:24] resolution, have a social identity [29:27] around our lived experience, what [29:29] happens to us. So narrative is kind of [29:32] everything, right? In stress research, [29:34] it's it's not what happens to us, it's [29:35] how we're interpreting it and how we're [29:37] responding to it. And I've I've heard [29:39] you say the exact same thing when you've [29:40] talked about what is stress. It's it's [29:42] really what narrative we're creating [29:44] around it. So I think a narrative of [29:46] purpose, fill in the blank about what [29:48] your what's meaningful to you. But that [29:52] is why we're different than just the [29:53] rats that we study or the monkeys. We [29:56] have the ability to do this projection [29:58] to the future to ask what is our purpose [30:00] in life to see and know that we are [30:05] going to die and we can have some [30:07] control over how we live and maybe even [30:10] how we die and how we want to be [30:12] remembered. That is so beautiful. That [30:14] helps us rise above this being monkeys [30:17] and clothes. [30:18] >> I want to first of all just say thank [30:20] you for doing the incredibly important [30:21] work you do. I also just want to thank [30:23] you for taking the time today to share [30:25] this information. I know I speak on [30:27] behalf of many many people and I just [30:29] really want to extend my gratitude. [30:31] >> Thank you so much and thank you for for [30:34] your podcast. [30:35] >> Well, it's a labor of love and it's days [30:37] like today and discussions like this [30:38] that make it worthwhile. So, thank you. [30:40] >> Thanks, Andrew.