RXBAR Creator Peter Rahal Buys Supplier Epogee to Scale David Protein

RXBAR创始人Peter Rahal收购供应商Epogee以扩张David Protein 若企业管理者必须亲自打电话才能解决产品问题，说明业务已陷入困境；因此Peter Rahal始终坚持亲力亲为的技术掌控，并以8500万美元收购了单一来源脂肪替代品供应商Epogee，从而切断了未签署长期合同的竞争对手的原料供应。 Peter Rahal讨论了与实业运营的快速反馈闭环相比，私募投资在心理上的煎熬，并详细阐述了他如何重返快消品（CPG）领域，创立David Protein和Medici Brands以作为传统大型集团的去中心化替代方案。他解释了自己的运营理念，包括将组织本身视作产品、聘用前创业者、维持包含25名直接汇报对象的扁平化架构，以及通过收购原料供应商Epogee实现垂直整合。Rahal强调了极高的逆境耐受力、第一性原理思考、重视速度而非融资估值，以及如何将个人的怨愤与永不满足的进取心转化为果决冷酷的企业建设行动。 在以6亿美元将RXBAR出售给Kellogg后，Peter Rahal发现私募投资令人痛苦，因为其反馈周期长达五年，且让人感觉像是被戴上手铐的被动乘客。重返食品行业后，他在两年内将David Protein的业务规模扩展至年化超4亿美元（预计今年营收为3亿美元）。 (27:20) 在创立David Protein六个月后，Rahal在该公司消耗了单一来源植物脂肪供应商Epogee高达150%产能的情况下，以8500万美元将其收购。随后，他切断了未能谈妥长期供应协议的竞争品牌的货源，并在一场历经三次驳回的反垄断诉讼中全身而退。 (40:57) 为了在不耗费管理层时间进行竞价拍卖的情况下为收购Epogee筹集资金，Rahal敲定了一轮由Greenoaks Capital与Valor Equity Partners共同领投的8500万美元融资。此前，Greenoaks曾暗中向约20名前RXBAR员工每人支付最高1000美元以对其领导能力进行私下背景调查，并因此赢得了这一投资份额。 (51:47) 借鉴佛罗伦萨美第奇家族的组织架构，Medici Brands作为一家控股公司运营，为David Protein和Hall Pass等半自主业务单元提供集中的资本配置、法务及人才服务。Rahal直接管理约25名汇报对象且不设中间管理层，并在公司内部弃用“创始人”头衔，认为这有违凭实力说话的精英管理原则。 (63:00)

Peter Rahal argues that building an enduring enterprise demands direct technical product mastery, exceptional pain tolerance, and radical operational simplicity over passive capital allocation. Reflecting on his $600 million sale of RXBAR, Rahal outlines how he channeled personal friction into building David Protein and the Medici platform to challenge legacy food conglomerates. Channeling Adversity and the Operating Drive (0:02) Following the sale of RXBAR to Kellogg, Rahal found that passive private investing clashed with his psychological wiring. Disliking the venture dynamic of courting founders for allocations and feeling like a "handcuffed passenger" watching others make operational errors, he realized his drive required direct company building. Diagnosed with severe dyslexia in childhood, Rahal developed a fierce anti-authority motivation after hearing teachers question his intelligence, instilling a permanent chip on his shoulder and a habit of enduring friction. Rahal and host David Senra highlight that an entrepreneur's pain threshold—paralleling Uber co-founder Travis Kalanick's framing that founding is about outlasting others through sheer suffering—becomes destructive unless actively channeled into building. For Rahal, that fuel translates into extreme work hours and a relentless focus on deficiencies rather than milestones, viewing dissatisfaction as an essential mechanism against organizational decay. Product Mastery and Vertical Supply Integration (10:40) A cornerstone of Rahal's operating philosophy is that founders must understand the technical mechanics of their products intimately enough to resolve defects without third-party assistance. While using protein bars as an initial wedge against legacy conglomerates like Nestlé, Rahal anchored David Protein's core formula around Epogee (EPG), an ingredient using esterified propoxylated glycerol to replicate fat's texture without caloric absorption. Recognizing the existential vulnerability of relying on a single, patented supplier, Rahal initially negotiated strict commercial protections, including change-of-control provisions and most-favored-nation status on pricing and volume. When David began consuming up to 150% of the supplier's available output, he vertically integrated by acquiring Epogee for $85 million in cash and equity. This consolidation secured Medici's supply chain while shutting out uncontracted competitors, withstanding three dismissed antitrust lawsuits. Aerodynamic Capital and Valuation Discipline (50:02) Rahal contends that consumer packaged goods companies should rarely rely on traditional venture capital playbooks, arguing that physical goods businesses must prove unit economics and profitability from day one rather than burning capital on speculative growth. Having bootstrapped RXBAR with personal credit guarantees, Rahal seeded David with $2 million of his own money and initially raised only an $8 million working capital buffer from trusted partners at Valor Equity Partners. To fund the Epogee acquisition, Rahal raised an $85 million round co-led by Greenoaks Capital and Valor without running a competitive auction. Rahal explains that avoiding auctions keeps the company "aerodynamic" by protecting leadership focus from administrative diligence marathons. Furthermore, he deliberately avoids maximizing headline valuation, preferring prices that leave room for investor returns under rigorous underwriting, while personally co-investing his own capital in every round. Decentralized Structure and Founder Talent (65:34) To build a modern conglomerate without bureaucratic inertia, Rahal structured Medici into semi-autonomous business units—such as David Protein and Hall Pass—supported by centralized legal, formulation, and finance hubs. While this model incurs redundant sales overhead compared to traditional corporate centralization, Rahal prioritizes operational speed above cost-cutting, stating he would leave the business if corporate bureaucracy overran the culture. Medici deliberately recruits former founders to lead its units, seeking individuals with high agency, first-principles reasoning, and adversity-driven motivation over traditional corporate credentials. Emulating NVIDIA CEO Jensen Huang's management span, Rahal maintains roughly 25 direct reports. This deliberately flat hierarchy eliminates protective middle-management layers, forces executive autonomy, and ensures unvarnished operating friction reaches executive attention immediately. Rahal reports that David reached a $400 million run rate within two years, but his high-speed, decentralized model relies heavily on hardline operational maneuvers—such as monopolizing supplier inventory—and an extreme personal tolerance for conflict that may prove difficult to scale indefinitely across expanding business units.

[0:02] Peter Rahal: Chasing men for allocations is something I didn't want to do. [2:30] Peter Rahal: I'm probably actually a miserable investor because I'm like I'm handcuffed sitting in the back seat while someone else is driving and they don't know where they're going. And that's like a torturous position to someone who knows where to go. [7:29] Peter Rahal: If I go in, I'm like fucking all in, and that's like a really scary thing actually, cuz then like my friends go away, like my health goes, all this stuff happens to me... So what I commit to is like very serious. [10:40] Peter Rahal: the leader of the company, if they have to pick up the phone to fix the product, they're fucked. [19:22] Peter Rahal: I love beauty. I love intelligence and I love suffering and discipline to a negative point of view almost. [21:07] Peter Rahal: Physical suffering is easy cuz like you just get really hot, get really cold... but what's nice about building a company is it's like emotional suffering. It's like a lot of tough conversations. What I've learned early on is like if you face those things, there's growth on the end of it. [21:07] Travis Kalanick: The lifestyle of an entrepreneur is I can take more pain than this guy and I'll prove it to you. [25:40] Isadore 'Izzy' Sharp: Excellence is the capacity to take pain. [39:18] Peter Rahal: They're not giving up. They have something to prove and like those are the most powerful people to get do you want to organize around. [48:06] Peter Rahal: I just don't have sympathy for stupidity. I don't have sympathy for incompetence, really. [51:47] Peter Rahal: The investor class believes they're very, very high status, and they always reach out with an entitlement to like take my time. And so I've always viewed it as like, I'm not giving you my time. We're not—I will be respectful, but like, I don't just take investor calls. I just don't do it. I think it's a bad use of time. And plus, I have my own capital, so I was like, I'll finance it. Fuck it. [60:31] Peter Rahal: Running a business is like, it's like a river. As long as it's flowing, great. But if there's something blocking that flow, you need to fucking fix it. [65:34] Peter Rahal: Because it makes me angry. I hate big fat stupid things and... I don't want to be a big fat stupid company. [77:45] Peter Rahal: I love the fight, so I seek it,

[0:02] Okay, I want to start with the fact you [0:04] sold your previous company for 600 [0:05] million. You and your co-founder own 90% [0:07] of it. You find yourself as a very young [0:09] man with about a quart billion dollars [0:10] in cash. What happens next? [0:14] >> The natural thing is to get into [0:16] investing. Outside looking at investing [0:18] is like very appealing. It's like one [0:21] you think it's an intellectual exercise. [0:24] The second real thing is like it gives [0:26] you a great lifestyle cuz you're not [0:27] operating. So you can kind of you no [0:29] organizational responsibility. I started [0:32] studying investing and getting into it. [0:34] >> How did you study investing? [0:35] >> Figuring out asset classes, how to build [0:37] a portfolio, grow capital, [0:40] >> underwriting deals. [0:41] >> Are you having conversations? You [0:42] reading like [0:43] >> reading conversations, [0:45] best books on it. And then where my time [0:48] was spent was on where I had the the [0:51] best advantage, which is in consumer [0:52] package good investing or or or just [0:55] privates. So early startups and stage [0:58] agnostic seed to growth didn't matter [1:01] and started doing that and quickly [1:02] realized that the most important skill [1:04] sets like is charisma or like with whale [1:09] hunting it's like finding the deal that [1:11] is quite obvious and then trying to get [1:13] an allocation. That's really like the [1:15] game and that's quite quite gay. [1:19] [laughter] [1:22] Chasing men for allocations is something [1:26] I didn't want to do. My previous [1:27] experience was like, I'm gonna sit back, [1:31] I'm gonna spend my time building a [1:33] product, and my product's going to do [1:34] the talking. Like, my product's going to [1:36] do the work. Where investing, you're [1:38] you're you're taking capital, and then [1:40] you're trying to allocate it into the [1:41] into the thing that's going to grow, [1:43] behind the leader that's going to you're [1:44] going to bet behind. And that's just too [1:47] hands-off for me. Like I'm I'm used to [1:49] like fighting being in knife fights and [1:52] it's just too passive. So investing is [1:55] very tempting because you can like make [1:56] a decision not and not have to do [1:59] anything and it works like it grows. The [2:02] big problem I had with it is the [2:03] feedback loop's super long. Like in in [2:05] building and operating a business you [2:07] make a decision whether it's a hire, [2:09] whether it's a product decision, [2:10] marketing and you get the feedback right [2:12] away. Like the feedback loops it's like [2:15] immediate. where in investing it's like [2:17] are you can [2:18] >> develop a thesis, develop this [2:20] underwrite this founder as really great [2:23] and then you like [2:25] >> make the decision and like all right 5 [2:27] years go by did it work or not. [2:30] >> So you're living where when you sell RX [2:32] Bar [2:32] >> Chicago okay you have this huge [2:34] acquisition you have a bunch of cash [2:35] this is when you moved to Miami you [2:37] moved to Miami before [2:38] >> no after. [2:39] >> Okay after. So now you have the money [2:40] and now you're like, "Okay, I'm going to [2:41] I have a bunch of money." You start You [2:43] had this ridiculous idea. This is your [2:45] own words cuz when we were hanging out a [2:47] few weeks ago, you said, "I had the [2:48] ridiculous idea of starting a family [2:50] office." [2:50] >> Yes. [2:51] >> So you moved to Miami like I'm going to [2:52] start a family office. [2:53] >> Yes. [2:53] >> Okay. Explain that part. [2:55] >> So I was in Chicago and I just needed a [2:57] change. I needed to like change [2:58] environment. RX was my identity. I just [3:00] got divorced. So I looked at the United [3:02] States and I was like, where's the best [3:04] place to go? [3:05] >> Wait, wait. The divorce part. [3:06] >> The divorce happened after the [3:08] acquisition. Yeah. Was it anything [3:09] related there where like you're under a [3:10] lot of stress like [3:11] >> No, just hubus. [3:13] >> Say more about that. [3:14] >> I had success bias where everything I [3:16] done has been successful and so there's [3:18] blurred lines between your personal and [3:20] professional and I just moved too fast. [3:22] Thought it was going to be easy. Yeah. [3:24] Cuz my goal is to have a family so [3:26] career success accomplished. Next thing [3:28] is family and you try to speedrun. [3:30] >> Yeah. Go went too way too fast and [3:33] thinking I'm really good. So, [laughter] [3:36] so this is if I if I remember correctly, [3:38] me, marry, divorce, all in like nine [3:41] months. Yeah. [3:42] >> Okay. I beat Kim Kardashian. [laughter] [3:47] >> Okay. So, you moved to Miami. I'm going [3:48] to invest. And then what I really want [3:50] to get into is the fact that you are [3:52] uniquely unsuited to invest. Like I all [3:54] the other founders I know that I ask [3:56] about you is like this guy is just like [3:57] a relentless animal operator. like the [4:00] idea that he could think that he could [4:01] sit and be like the guy behind the guy. [4:04] Why do you think you made that mistake? [4:05] This is very interesting to me because [4:06] you did what you did to start scale [4:09] sell, right? Which is very uh like uh [4:11] celebrated, but I talked to a bunch of [4:13] founders that did that and then they're [4:15] [ __ ] miserable. You're one of them. [4:17] So like I really want to hone in on like [4:18] what you were feeling and why you were [4:20] so miserable in this situation. My plan [4:22] was to get out of Chicago, change [4:24] environments, and then I just looked at [4:25] a map like, "All right, where's the best [4:27] place to go to reset a bit and invest, [4:30] build my family office, get get that [4:33] right, and then ultim ultimate goal was [4:36] to relocate where is in the best [4:37] interest to start my next thing." So, [4:39] chose Miami as a place to like reset and [4:41] invest. And this is before co got there, [4:44] started like formalizing a family [4:46] office. And then I I think like what I [4:48] underestimated with investing in in [4:51] different entrepreneurs particularly in [4:52] food and beverage is that like I just [4:54] assumed they all had the same tenacity [4:57] as me. Like I I just thought like that's [5:00] what you did. And I didn't really know [5:02] anyone else who were founders at the [5:04] time. And then I quickly realized like [5:07] I'm probably actually a miserable [5:08] investor because I'm I'm like I'm [5:11] handcuffed sitting in the back seat [5:13] while someone else is driving and they [5:14] don't know where they're going. And [5:16] that's like a torturous position to [5:18] someone who knows where to go. [5:19] >> So you didn't know how rare you were. [5:21] >> Yes. [5:22] >> Okay. [5:22] >> As as not humble that as that is, but [5:25] yeah. [5:26] >> I was just sitting upstairs right before [5:27] this and I was with my friend Patrick [5:29] who does the invest like the best um [5:31] podcast. He's one of my closest friends [5:33] and we just happen to run into Adam [5:34] Fugui from Apploven [5:36] >> which again there's a lot of like [5:37] overlap between you and uh uh you and [5:40] Adam and we were talking about [5:42] essentially you know Adam's running this [5:44] very this this cash printing machine [5:46] with like very few employees like he [5:48] actually he hates entrepreneurs [5:50] optimized for vanity metrics where he [5:51] said you should just focus on cash [5:52] generation it's like very [5:53] straightforward to him it's like obvious [5:54] to him [5:55] >> and we were talking about the different [5:56] like different hires he had and [5:57] different other founders he knows and [5:59] then through a story that he was telling [6:01] Patrick had a great line. He goes, "Man, [6:03] it's crazy. Like in any domain, there's [6:05] only like two or three guys that are [6:06] actually good." [6:07] >> Yeah. Just pick any categories. Like [6:09] there's like a sea of [ __ ] and like two [6:11] or three maybe four people that are [6:13] actually excellent. [6:14] >> Yeah. And like what I I just like assume [6:16] that anyone who's getting into [6:17] entrepreneurship, they're like willing [6:18] to die before their company fails. They [6:21] are willing to sacrifice comfort to win. [6:24] They want to win. And I realized like no [6:26] some people like that's not that's [6:29] actually not what people a lot of people [6:30] do or prioritize. [6:32] >> When you run into other entrepreneurs [6:33] like this that you made the mistake of [6:34] investing in because they weren't like [6:36] you. When you have conversations with [6:37] them like what is their response to your [6:39] extreme approach? [6:41] >> If I'm the one giving criticisms to the [6:44] company like that's a problem. Like the [6:47] CEO should be the most critical. I [6:48] shouldn't be like hey man the car is on [6:50] fire. that relationship if I'm the one [6:52] spotting out problems or saying go [6:54] faster or saying like that's usually not [6:57] a good sign. Um, and I kept falling into [6:59] that pattern and I don't want to be in a [7:00] position to be like it's like your [7:02] company at the end of the day. I don't [7:03] want to be I'm not an adviser. I'm just [7:05] here to try to facilitate stuff. But [7:08] what I'm really trying to get at is like [7:09] what is going on inside of you? Like [7:10] what is your inner monologue? You're [7:11] like, "Oh, I [ __ ] up." Like what is [7:13] actually happening? [7:15] >> This is frustrating. [7:18] Uh, I need to get back in the game. [7:20] like this sucks. [7:21] >> How long did it take for you to figure [7:23] this out? [7:24] >> Probably a year. Yeah. 20 on the age of [7:28] 21. [7:29] >> Okay. So then what's the next step after [7:31] that? You're like, "Okay, this sucks. I [7:32] don't want to be an investor. I need to [7:33] be an operator. I want to own my own [7:34] company. [7:35] >> I'm way too young to be retired, by the [7:37] way." [7:38] >> Yeah, for sure. So I I started One of [7:40] the good things about investing is [7:41] you're talking you're getting through [7:42] the deal for process. You're you're [7:44] ideating. you're talking to other movers [7:46] and shakers and that that's a helpful [7:48] process of like, all right, is that [7:49] something interesting? Is that a problem [7:50] I want to solve, but basically I I had [7:54] several false starts. I looked at [7:57] recycling garbage. I looked at synthetic [7:59] biology. I looked at other consumer [8:02] package stuff. And I like started and [8:04] then I basically pulled out um [8:07] committing to stuff. And the the reason [8:09] is like if I go in I'm like [ __ ] all [8:13] in and that's like a really scary thing [8:17] actually cuz then I like my friends go [8:19] away like my health goes all this stuff [8:21] happens to me. So [8:23] >> we can't we can't go on from that. Okay. [8:25] Then you need to describe what allin [8:27] means. See what you just said. It's [8:28] scary. My friends go away my health goes [8:30] away. [8:31] >> So this is just the only way you can [8:32] operate. Explain this to me. [8:33] >> Yeah. my like my leadership style is [8:34] like it's just like all in um burn the [8:38] bridges, burn so I can't go into [8:40] something like halfass ever. So what I [8:43] commit to is like very serious. And so [8:45] all my false starts were like uh I'm not [8:48] like moving in the direction of starting [8:50] it and then just pull back moving in [8:51] this direction of starting pull back. [8:53] The other thing that there was like I [8:55] needed to start a family. So, my order [8:58] of like during my hiatus of investing, I [9:00] was like, I need to find a wife to go [9:02] start a family. I don't know if Miami is [9:04] the place, Miami Beach in particular is [9:06] the place you should be searching for a [9:07] wife. [9:08] >> I agree. [9:09] And then I bought a place in New York [9:11] and moved to New York. But in general, [9:13] it's like, all right, so if I find [9:14] something and and fall for it, there's a [9:17] really high chance that I'm going to go [9:20] all in. I won't see my friends lose my [9:23] health and I'll be 50 and single. And [9:26] that's a version of my the future I [9:27] didn't I didn't really want. So I [9:28] ultimately found my wife and then all [9:31] roads led back to like protein bars. [9:35] It required some humility of being like, [9:36] you know, that's like my stick. Like if [9:38] I die on my gravestone, it might say [9:40] like protein bar guy. Like I'm and I'm [9:42] comfortable with that. Uh cuz first I [9:44] had some like influence of Elon like, [9:46] oh, I need to go into like I'm not the [9:48] food guy. I'm going over there. I'm not [9:50] this. I need to like prove something. [9:51] But then I realized like I've been I've [9:54] been in the food business since I was [9:55] like 12. I like have an in deep [9:58] intrinsic knowledge of it and and [10:01] basically once once my non-compete was [10:03] like a year away, it just like naturally [10:05] happened of like oh started connecting [10:08] the dots like this is what I should do. [10:10] >> So wait, you're in the food business [10:11] since you were 12. How old are you at [10:13] this point where you're like I'm going [10:14] to be I'm going to start another protein [10:16] gore. [10:16] >> 34. [10:17] >> Okay. [10:17] >> Yeah. So [10:18] >> 34. Yes. Yeah. So, my not compete was 22 [10:20] October 6th, 22. [10:22] >> How long that getting over that [10:24] dialogue, that inner monologue where [10:26] it's like, oh, like, you know, I need to [10:28] do something more impactful or I have to [10:29] do biology or create hardware or [10:31] something and just like, no, I'm going [10:32] to actually stick to what I actually [10:34] know and maybe the best in the world at [10:35] it was 3 years. You had to convince [10:37] yourself this. [10:38] >> Wow. Okay. [10:39] >> Yeah. and a little bit of like because I [10:41] always think with a this is both as with [10:43] as an investor when I looked at [10:45] companies and then a philosophy um for [10:48] myself is like the leader of the company [10:51] if they have to pick up the phone to fix [10:53] the product they're [ __ ] [10:56] meaning like the the leader has to be [10:58] able to really deeply understand the [11:00] product and be able to fix it and then [11:01] all those false starts were like I kind [11:03] of depended on something else or I [11:05] didn't have the time to learn the the [11:08] get the deep enough understanding of the [11:10] product to make that change. And so with [11:13] food, I like deeply I like know exactly [11:15] what to do. So it just became really [11:16] obvious and um got my wife and then [11:20] started what is today David [11:22] >> when we talked the other why why just [11:25] like that was my it was a very clear [11:26] process like all right check your [11:28] personal life before you so you don't [11:30] like ruin your personal life again [11:33] because you're going to like go all in [11:34] on something and then like once that's [11:37] done and then it happens you got the [11:39] family the non-compete expires and now [11:41] you're back at this but your maybe your [11:43] ambition when you were younger cuz you [11:44] started RX bar when you were held early [11:46] 20s something like Todd [11:47] >> 24 [11:48] >> 24 but now the scope of your ambition is [11:50] like David is not a bar company that's [11:52] like the first of the products but how [11:54] do you describe what you're working on [11:55] now [11:56] >> we don't want to tell people what not to [11:59] eat I think that's like a lot of the [12:00] food business like don't eat this it's [12:02] like demonization and it's pseudocience [12:04] we want to make your favorite foods [12:07] smarter and so it's a really quiet [12:10] approach like they're there and they're [12:11] more intelligent they're more effective [12:12] they're objectively better so we're [12:14] going to do that across Ross multiple [12:15] categories. Protein bar is the wedge. I [12:18] know it. That's what we use to get to [12:20] scale. Um, and once you get to scale, [12:22] you can build the platform for there. [12:24] You have the organization, you have the [12:25] route to market, you have the R&D [12:27] capabilities. So, the protein bar got us [12:29] our platform and now we're proliferating [12:31] into categories that just make sense for [12:34] us and our our technology. [12:36] >> When you started, David, you knew that [12:38] you were not going to stay, that you [12:39] wanted to build a food company, not a [12:40] protein bar company. I'm going to just [12:42] answer the qu my my question that I [12:44] asked you the way you said it to me [12:46] before which I think was excellent where [12:47] you're like I have to be the best in the [12:49] world at what I do in my category and I [12:52] was like what's your category and you're [12:53] like CPG I go what does that mean you go [12:55] anything that you can buy in a store [12:58] >> that's the size and scope of your [12:59] ambition [13:00] >> yeah like we're competing with Nestle [13:02] like I want to build the most important [13:04] food company in the 21st century and how [13:07] big what's the scale of some of these [13:09] food companies Nestle's is 100 plus [13:11] billion in revenue. Um they're real real [13:14] global as well. Um Pepsi is probably [13:17] right around there. Real scale. [13:19] >> So a couple hundred billion dollar [13:20] companies. Uh how many different [13:22] products? [13:23] >> Well, they have these enormous portfolio [13:25] of brands. Yeah. [13:26] >> And then you know hundreds of brands and [13:28] then those brands are different by [13:30] cultures or geographies. [13:32] >> They grow by acquisition or no? [13:33] >> Yeah, mostly. [13:34] >> Okay. Are you going to do that too? [13:36] >> Probably. It's on the table. But our [13:38] core competency is the ability to build [13:40] brands. So like I know how to create an [13:42] identity and build a brand. So for the [13:44] next four years, 5 years, we'll probably [13:46] just create brands, but I wouldn't rule [13:48] it out later on. [13:49] >> Okay. So tell me what you know about [13:50] building brands and identities. This [13:52] could be interesting. [13:53] >> The analogy I think of as a brand, it's [13:56] simply just a human being. So a brand [13:59] has a name. It has mommy and daddy. It's [14:02] the founders, its parents. Those parents [14:04] have DNA. This [snorts] brand, this [14:06] individual has values. It has a vision [14:10] where it's going. It has um other [14:13] traits, tone of voice, uh has friends. [14:17] Who do you associate with? [14:19] >> Hold on. Explain that part to me. Who do [14:20] you associate with? [14:21] >> So, who who are you going to do [14:22] partnerships with? Like, so David, for [14:24] example, David Protein has a partnership [14:28] with Huberman. Like, that's an [14:29] alignment. Like we wouldn't do a [14:30] partnership with [14:33] I don't know Miss Rachel doesn't make [14:34] sense although she's great but like [14:36] >> just like a human the social circle [14:38] matters and so [14:40] >> in creating a brand that identity both [14:44] from tone of voice visual what clothes [14:46] it wears who is its friends its values [14:49] vision you define that clearly and that [14:52] there's like a north star to it. The [14:54] most important factor in building brand [14:55] is it just takes time. So if you keep [14:58] this identity, it can be dynamic in [15:00] nature as it grows, but you are [15:03] consistently doing that over time and [15:05] with really great quality product and [15:07] service. The time piece is critical. [15:09] Like you just have to be doing that over [15:12] time. David's values are around [15:14] intelligence, beauty, and um discipline. [15:18] And that's rooted in the story of [15:20] Michelangelo's masterpiece, the [15:21] sculpture of David. Those values are [15:23] rooted in that the symbolism of of that [15:26] masterpiece and then the tool the chisel [15:28] which is like this crude nail but the [15:32] meaning of a chisel is intelligence [15:34] discipline and if you apply those things [15:36] you get a masterpiece something [15:38] beautiful. So so that's the logic for [15:40] David's uh brand and brand identity. So [15:43] so so if you have a crystal clear [15:46] identity for a brand and and its product [15:48] offering and its position the marketing [15:51] actually becomes really easy. You just [15:52] constantly hammer those points over and [15:55] over over again. [15:56] >> I want to tell you about the presenting [15:57] sponsor of this podcast, RAMP. I have [16:00] been reading a lot about SpaceX lately. [16:02] SpaceX is one of the most valuable [16:03] businesses in the world, and one of the [16:05] main themes in the history of SpaceX is [16:07] constantly attacking and questioning [16:09] your cost. Ramp helps many of the most [16:11] innovative businesses in the world do [16:12] exactly that. The median company running [16:15] on ramp cuts their expenses by 5%. And [16:18] one thing SpaceX has demonstrated is [16:20] that a religious dedication to [16:21] controlling costs can help actually [16:23] increase revenue because you can pursue [16:26] opportunities you couldn't otherwise. [16:28] And we see that in the RAMP data, too. [16:30] The median company running on RAMP also [16:32] grows their revenue by 16%. So when [16:36] you're running your business on RAMP and [16:37] your competitors are not, you have a [16:39] massive competitive advantage that [16:41] compounds over time. Ramp is the only [16:43] platform designed to make your finance [16:45] team faster and happier. Many of the top [16:47] founders and CEOs I know run their [16:49] business on RAMP. I run my business on [16:51] ramp and you should too. Go to ramp.com [16:54] to learn how they can help your business [16:55] save time, save money, and grow revenue. [16:58] That is ramp.com. [17:00] Deal is how the best founders turn the [17:02] world into their talent pool. I've been [17:04] studying how history's greatest founders [17:06] operate for a decade. And one thing they [17:08] all have in common is they understand [17:09] that recruiting and hiring the very best [17:11] talent is your most important priority. [17:13] A players recognize other A players [17:15] which is why top companies like Ramp, [17:17] Shopify, 11 Labs, Uber, and Door Dash [17:20] all use Deal. Many of the top founders I [17:22] know have personally invested in Deal [17:24] after using their product. And what they [17:26] discovered is that Deal is the best [17:27] company in the world at building [17:29] infrastructure for global hiring. Deal [17:30] will help your business hire, pay, and [17:32] manage any worker anywhere in the world. [17:34] So you can retain the best talent [17:36] anywhere and spend the rest of your time [17:38] focusing on what you do best, delivering [17:40] value to your customers. The founder of [17:42] 11 Labs has a great description of the [17:44] value deal can give your company. He [17:46] said, "We built 11 Labs to break down [17:49] language and communication barriers. [17:50] With deal enabling us to hire and [17:52] support exceptional talent anywhere, we [17:55] can accelerate our innovation and bring [17:57] more voices, stories, and ideas to every [18:00] corner of the world. Deal is trusted by [18:02] over 40,000 companies and growing fast. [18:05] Learn how they can help your business by [18:06] going to deal.com/enra. [18:09] That is deal.comra. [18:13] >> How much time did you put into planning [18:15] this brand identity for David? [18:17] >> Six months maybe. [18:18] >> Okay. So then once you have this clearly [18:20] defined set of qualities for the brand [18:22] and then you're saying okay then we just [18:23] extend this over you know decades is the [18:25] plan. [18:26] >> Yes. You just hammer it like [18:28] >> keep going. [18:29] >> How did you learn the importance of [18:31] maintaining the same brand identity over [18:33] a long period of time? [18:35] >> Uh just studying like in like just [18:37] studying brands. Like if you look at the [18:38] best brands, they're all old and so time [18:40] is a factor that's really really [18:41] important and the consistency of that. [18:44] Um, and the thing is there's an [18:45] asymmetry where like those brands are [18:47] super fragile. So if you like [ __ ] [18:50] around on quality or or something else [18:53] like it's over really quickly. The [18:56] reason I asked that is because uh I was [18:58] obsessed with this guy named David Olg [19:00] and I've read every single one of his [19:01] books. He built one of the greatest [19:02] advertising agencies of all time and he [19:04] would hammer exactly what you did. you [19:06] sounded exactly like him. If you read [19:08] his autobiography, if you read Ogo on [19:09] advertising and his whole thing was just [19:11] like people jump around too much, like [19:12] you pick one brand identity and you do [19:15] it over and over and over again for [19:16] decades. He came to the exact same [19:18] conclusion. It's like the best brands [19:19] are the best brands because they did [19:20] this for decades after decades. [19:22] >> And it's fundamentally about the values [19:23] of the brand. Like for David, it's about [19:26] intelligence, [19:27] >> beauty, and discipline. [19:29] >> Why did you pick those three traits, [19:31] though? [19:31] >> They're close to me. I love beauty. I [19:34] love intelligence and I love suffering [19:37] and discipline to a negative point of [19:40] view almost. Protein bars are our start. [19:42] So what do people come to protein bars [19:43] for? They come to it for body [19:46] composition. Like no one really eats [19:48] protein bars is like, oh, I'm just like [19:49] going to enjoy this treat. It's like [19:51] very very functional. Like I'm going to [19:52] I need to transform my body either [19:54] increase muscle or decrease fat. So the [19:58] category in protein in general is very [20:00] oriented around those values as well. [20:03] And so [20:05] with David, one of the things I wanted [20:07] was like a a weight loss company or a [20:09] body composition company without being [20:12] one. So if you look at the great, [20:14] they're not really great, but the '9s um [20:17] brands in weight loss like Atkins, um [20:21] [snorts] [20:22] Weight Watchers, Jenny Craig, like [20:23] they're super tacky, but they're people [20:26] went to them for body composition stuff. [20:28] So the question was like all right well [20:30] how do I make that more refined really [20:32] more European like higher better taste [20:35] and so did that um and then the other [20:39] side like I don't know but when I turned [20:41] 35 and just looked around my friends I [20:43] just realized like everyone I knew had [20:46] some issue with weight like everyone had [20:49] struggled with weight loss as you get [20:51] older um everyone wanted more muscle [20:56] like everyone I've ever talked to and [20:57] it's whether it's a issue they're honest [20:59] about or they're in the closet about it. [21:01] Like so it's like a ubiquitous problem. [21:03] So idea is like how do you create a [21:04] brand that really embodies that in a [21:06] refined way? [21:07] >> I'm going to get back to the masterpiece [21:08] in a minute so don't let me forget that [21:09] part. But you said that I'm you're [21:11] almost like attracted to suffering in [21:13] like almost like an extreme ridiculous [21:14] way. What the hell does that mean? [21:16] >> I always choose the hard path. Like [21:20] I like even when I exercise, I choose [21:22] the most painful exercises. [21:25] When I take my son out, I refuse to take [21:27] a stroller. [21:29] I just always carry him. I just like [21:32] being strong and doing hard things. And [21:34] I think there's something spiritual [21:36] about like suffering that I find very [21:39] gratifying once you get through it. And [21:41] I think physical suffering is easy cuz [21:43] like you just get really hot, get really [21:45] cold. It's like but that what's nice [21:47] about building a company is it's like [21:48] emotional suffering. It's it's like a [21:51] lot of tough conversations. Um, and so I [21:54] just I I think what I've learned early [21:56] on is like if you face those things, [21:58] there's growth on the end of it. And so [22:00] I found this relationship, the more you [22:01] suffer, [22:03] the stronger and the more growth you [22:05] experience. [22:06] And so when I see it and I feel it, I [22:09] like lean into it. Travis Kalanick, the [22:12] founder of Ruber, was on this podcast [22:13] and he said something that resonated [22:14] with a lot of people and he's like, "The [22:15] lifestyle of an entrepreneur is I can [22:17] take more pain than this guy and I'll [22:18] prove it to you." Yeah. [22:19] >> Do you agree with this? Yeah, it's fun. [22:23] >> Yeah, I love it. Pain tolerance. [22:26] >> Yeah, [22:26] >> I want everything that's in your head [22:28] about pain tolerance and suffering. [22:29] Let's just put it out here because I [22:30] think this is very interesting. Look at [22:31] the look in your eyes. I don't know if [22:33] we can get this on camera or not. [22:35] >> I don't know. I I I just feels good and [22:38] I I like I don't know where I don't know [22:40] where it's from necessarily. [22:43] I think it's rooted in competitive [22:45] nature, but I think it makes you a [22:48] better man. [22:50] I think there's well there's nuance like [22:52] suffering for like no benefit is not [22:54] good but I think this is actually it I [22:58] have a lot of resentment and anger in my [22:59] life [23:01] and if I do not harness that in a [23:03] certain way it has become I it starts to [23:06] I become a bad person or I I start to [23:09] not be happy and so physical exertion [23:14] exercise company building stuff is a way [23:16] for me to channel [23:18] all this spite and anger in a way that's [23:21] really productive. [23:22] >> What's the source of the resentment and [23:24] anger in your life that you feel you [23:26] have to channel? So like trauma is [23:28] relative but for me um when I I grew up [23:31] very beautiful parents like I so I don't [23:34] want to sound like I suffered that much [23:35] but um when I was a child I was just [23:38] labeled disabled because of my dyslexia [23:41] um and that I remember hearing [23:44] conversations of teachers saying like oh [23:45] is Peter stupid like I couldn't read [23:48] well and I remember that like I [23:51] overheard those conversations with my [23:52] parents and that just I think broke me [23:56] in a way that it's like my in deep [23:59] intrinsic motivation to prove that [24:01] wrong. And it's actually why I am so [24:04] disagreeable with any sort of authority [24:06] or disagree like or contrarian by nature [24:09] cuz like my survival strategy as a child [24:11] was to say to have self-esteem really is [24:14] like all you teachers are wrong. This [24:17] whole system is broken. [24:20] [ __ ] off. So [24:23] I think deep in my personality is that [24:25] like proving that all wrong. Um and then [24:29] even to survive in school I had it was [24:32] like took me it's like 10x the effort to [24:35] get like a C D. So I think a lot of my [24:39] pain tolerance came from some of that. [24:42] Um but my resentment and anger is [24:44] certainly rooted in that. [24:46] >> You still feel this when you wake up [24:47] today? [24:48] >> Yeah. Yeah. No I think it's like [24:49] tattooed. I've I I psychedelics therapy. [24:52] It's like tattooed in me at this point. [24:54] I I [24:55] >> You've tried to get rid of it and you [24:56] can't. [24:56] >> Yeah. [24:56] >> And so you feel the outlet is crushing [24:59] your competitors like [25:00] >> Yeah. Yeah. It's like it's Yeah. It's [25:03] winning. It's like [25:05] it's And it's like I'm not really proud. [25:07] It's like it's I I'm just like it is [25:10] what it is. I didn't really choose it, [25:12] but it's like to prove that I'm not that [25:16] fundamentally. [25:18] But I thought when I was in when I was [25:20] uh fake working as an investor, I um I [25:24] was deeply unhappy because I wasn't able [25:27] to channel I was like I'm the sideline. [25:30] I'm not I'm not a [ __ ] cheerleader. [25:31] Like I'm on the sideline and I need to [25:33] like channel all this anger and like [25:35] thing towards a result and I like [25:38] >> you know reporting on a portfolio is not [25:40] doing that. I have a younger friend that [25:43] um feel like I can kind of share like [25:47] the some of the experience I get to have [25:48] with this person. And I was just like as [25:51] a general rule, the further you get away [25:54] from the person that actually has [25:55] talent, the more cautious you have to [25:57] be. So it's like the founder obviously [25:59] has talent. You obviously have talent. [26:00] You you created something from nothing [26:02] and you've done it over and over again [26:03] and now building this. But like you have [26:05] to be careful of these agents. You have [26:07] to be careful these bankers. You have to [26:08] be careful with these investors. the [26:10] further you get away from the person [26:12] with talent, the it's it they they they [26:15] just are incentivized to kind of like [26:19] persuade, cajol, you know, act in many [26:22] cases like against your interests. And I [26:24] was like, just stay close to the people [26:25] that actually have talent. And if you're [26:27] you don't need many friends in life, you [26:28] can have five. [26:29] >> And like those are the kind of friend [26:31] group that you should have where like [26:32] you have all these other fakers out here [26:34] that are playing politics. You can get [26:35] ahead that way, which is like completely [26:37] different than like how the entrepreneur [26:38] thinks. Yeah, I agree with that. [26:41] >> Yeah, [26:42] >> there's another thing that you were [26:44] saying um because I I'm not going to [26:46] leave this alone. Like I want to hear [26:47] more about like your resentment and this [26:48] this like attraction that you have to [26:50] pain. So the founder of the Four [26:51] Seasons, this guy named Izzy Sharp, he [26:53] has this great line where you know he [26:54] started he he's like kind of like [26:57] embarrassingly uh ambitious and I mean [26:59] that in a great way where he's like I'm [27:00] going to build the world's greatest [27:02] high-end uh luxury hotel chain. He [27:04] didn't know anything about he never [27:05] built a single hotel before he had that [27:07] goal. And so his autobiography is [27:09] excellent and in there he says one of my [27:11] favorite maxis entrepreneurship he says [27:12] that excellence is the capacity to take [27:13] pain [27:14] >> and this same thing he had this very [27:17] complex relationship with his father he [27:18] had a lot of people doubting him this [27:20] idea like what you just said to me makes [27:21] perfect sense because it's just in these [27:22] biographies over and over again a lot of [27:24] people that have come on the show I just [27:26] mentioned Adam Fugi like one thing that [27:27] he drove drove himself is like I try to [27:30] give raise money I was giving willing to [27:32] sell 25% of my company for a million [27:34] dollars right this is the company that's [27:36] going to wind up being worth1200 billion [27:38] dollars. They turned me down. The these [27:40] VCs turned me down and and then they uh [27:42] funded some of the of my competitors. [27:44] So, we made it a company principle to [27:46] put those competitors out of business. [27:47] So, when I hear you, I hear this guy [27:49] Josh Wolf has this great line where he [27:50] says chips on shoulders puts chips in [27:53] pockets. [27:54] >> It's like using that pain that you had [27:56] when you were younger as channeling to [27:59] drive an achievement. [28:00] >> Yeah. Yeah, I think that's the key is [28:02] like you if you have that if you don't [28:04] channel it and focus it I think it's [28:06] destructive. [28:08] So like for me it all gets channeled [28:11] through the art through the company [28:13] building process and then it's [28:14] productive because it can be destructive [28:16] if you don't channel it. [28:17] >> Okay. So how are you channeling it into [28:19] what you're building now then? [28:21] >> The company's output is really [28:23] impressive. Just a lot of hours butts [28:26] and chairs in the office just [28:28] dedication. Yeah. What do you think is [28:29] impressive about the output that you're [28:30] doing right now? [28:32] >> What does that mean? [28:32] >> We're only 2 years old and it feels like [28:35] 5 years. So, our relationship with time [28:37] is really bizarre. But in 2 years, I [28:39] mean, we're runing over 400 million this [28:42] year. We'll do 300 million this year. [28:44] We're in the frozen category. We're [28:47] obviously in protein bars. We have an [28:48] RTD. We've launched a confection with [28:51] three different formats. Um, we're [28:54] launching another brand in November. [28:57] Um I you just don't in my field you [29:00] don't see that sort of output and it [29:02] keeps getting better like all our [29:03] products keep getting better but I mean [29:05] we're the fastest growing food company I [29:07] think no I know in history so it's [29:10] really hard to scale it and um the pace [29:12] in which we're doing it like I think [29:14] this would take normally 10 years and [29:16] we've done it in two explain to me why [29:18] it's so hard to scale [29:20] >> why it's hard to scale is because it's [29:21] inventory so like you need to go buy the [29:23] raw materials convert it into finished [29:25] product and some the raw materials take [29:27] a long time and like for example the [29:28] dairy market was super tight. So if you [29:30] don't like growing 300% 400% a year is [29:33] really really uh or even closer every 6 [29:36] months is really demanding on the supply [29:38] chain [29:40] to take Travis like this is all Adams [29:42] like it's no we're not a digital [29:44] business at all. So um [29:48] yeah the inventory part is really really [29:50] challenging so matching supply and [29:51] demand has just been a very difficult [29:54] and [29:54] >> so you've had times in the company where [29:56] you ran out of supply correct? [29:58] >> Oh constantly. Yeah. Is this when you [29:59] started I saw like you know Rob and [30:02] everybody's been telling me about David [30:03] Bar and then I saw like an ad and you [30:05] were like selling like cod or something. [30:07] >> Yeah. [30:07] >> Is that as a result of the fact that you [30:09] ran out of supply? What happened there? [30:11] >> The story of COD was [30:15] we're creating our website and we're [30:16] doing a comparison table [30:19] and the one metric we think is really [30:21] important is how many of your calories [30:23] are coming from protein. [30:26] And on this chart, we were number one. [30:28] And we were number one on everything. [30:29] And and like for me, my investor [30:32] influence, anything where I see a chart [30:33] where it's all number one, I'm like, [30:35] it's [ __ ] So we were like, all [30:36] right, well, we need to find something [30:38] that's number one. What has a better [30:40] protein to calorie ratio than our gold [30:42] product? And the only thing we found was [30:44] boiled cod. And so in our comparison [30:48] chart, we put boiled cod number one and [30:50] David number two and just left it there [30:52] as like a dorky sort of comparison. Um, [30:55] and why it worked is like the [30:56] justosition between a our bar and a cod [30:58] is like signals convenience. It signals [31:01] value and like cod's pretty [31:03] unappetizing. And then we're halfway [31:05] through the our first year and I was [31:06] like, you know, it's like it's like deja [31:08] dja vu for me. I'm like, this is super [31:11] boring. Like another another flavor, [31:13] another I'm like, we need to do [31:15] something bold. And so we're like, let's [31:17] actually sell cod and not like a stunt, [31:19] like actually seriously sell fish. And [31:22] so we did this foiled cod campaign and [31:25] everyone's like and it was funny because [31:27] it was like pain let me yeah [laughter] [31:29] it was like got in the frozen business [31:30] and it's like back to our brand values [31:32] like it was actually a very intelligent [31:35] thing because it had centered the [31:37] conversation around protein to calorie [31:39] ratio. So but did it in a way that [31:41] wasn't sort of like pro like like right [31:44] on the nose. It was like a little bit of [31:45] a riddle and it's like $55 frozen cod [31:48] online like no one really wants that. So [31:49] we didn't have product market fit, but [31:52] it functioned as a really great [31:53] communication tool. [31:55] >> So creating a product for marketing [31:56] benefits. [31:57] >> Yeah, we call it product as market. [32:00] I'm not giving up on it. Like we're [32:01] going to keep we're going to keep going. [32:03] We're going to keep going on COD until [32:05] we get product market fit. [32:07] >> I don't think [laughter] I don't think [32:09] you will, man. [32:10] >> I It's funny cuz if you look at our [32:11] website, it's like protein bars, bronze [32:14] and gold, pints, frozen ice cream, and [32:16] then there's like RTDs and there's like [32:18] [ __ ] fish [laughter] [32:21] and it's like it's weird. It's it's [32:25] weird, but like the whole food space is [32:27] so [ __ ] boring to be honest. It's [32:29] like they all say the same [ __ ] They [32:30] all do the same things. And so [32:34] being a second time, I just like we got [32:36] to have some fun with it. Okay. So, that [32:38] was not in response to to supply issues [32:42] because there was no demand for this [32:43] frozen cod so far. [32:44] >> Yeah. Yeah. No, it was it happened to [32:47] work at the same time we were out of [32:48] stock on some things, but no, it was [32:51] independent. [32:51] >> Okay. So, let's go back to when I [32:53] interrupted you because you started [32:54] talking about pain. You said talk about [32:56] building a masterpiece. What were you [32:58] going to say there? [33:00] Oh, it requires [33:02] tons of discipline and intelligence and [33:04] it's done over time and that's really [33:06] what the brand Dave is about is like [33:07] finish your masterpiece and everyone tap [33:10] into everyone's inner inner excellence. [33:11] >> But how do you apply it to building your [33:13] company though? [33:14] >> Well, I think I start with like the [ __ ] [33:15] where what is a company? So our strategy [33:18] there's like two fundamental things in a [33:20] company. [33:21] People [33:23] it's all about people as cliche as it [33:25] is. And and I think about the [33:27] organization as a product. So my focus [33:29] is all about that. And then the second [33:32] piece is product and mastery of the [33:34] product. And when I think of product, I [33:35] think of brand and product is the same [33:37] thing. Like the product is just the raw [33:40] thing and then [snorts] the brand is [33:42] like what it wears like the exterior [33:43] piece. But if you try to look at the [33:46] organization as a product, a company is [33:48] just a group of people aligned towards [33:50] the mission. So if that's the most [33:51] important thing, like what actions does [33:52] a company do to like make sure that it's [33:55] done? So for for us when I think of [33:58] mastery is like we have four processes [34:00] in the company that ensure our [34:02] organization is is is done right um and [34:05] and culture is lived. So if people are [34:08] everything [34:10] who you select is the most important [34:12] thing who you select into the [34:13] organization how do you train and [34:15] onboard them three how do you select the [34:18] ones to get promoted and and and and [34:22] rewarded and then how do you get the [34:25] terminate the ones that shouldn't be [34:26] there. So those four processes are [34:29] really critical to building the [34:31] organization and scaling it. And so we [34:34] spend a lot of our time refining our [34:36] hiring process. Training and onboarding [34:38] is mission critical and then promotion [34:41] as well, rewarding the right behaviors [34:43] and then firing. And then those are all [34:45] organized around our value system which [34:47] is the best way to align a group of [34:50] people to make sure the right behaviors [34:51] are matching what we want. [34:52] >> What are the behaviors that you want? [34:54] You want truth seekers, [34:56] people who are have courage to seek [34:58] truth. That's mission critical. You [35:00] don't want biases in place. [snorts] [35:04] Foundational would be humility, which is [35:06] I define as the freedom of pride and [35:08] arrogance. So humility is really [35:11] foundational. And and it shows up like [35:13] intellectually be like, I don't know [35:14] what I'm doing. I need help. Like I [35:17] don't want to cover your ass culture [35:18] where people are like, I have this data, [35:20] therefore my decision's good. like [35:22] that's not really productive. Say more [35:24] about that. You'll get people from big [35:26] corporate America come in and then they [35:29] will generate a bunch of data [35:32] surveys or whatever to prove their [35:36] experiment or um cover their ass if the [35:39] experiment goes wrong. It's like fake [35:41] work. [35:41] >> It's performative in a way like I'm just [35:43] doing this to cover my ass versus [35:46] focusing on the experiment and and not [35:48] worrying about covering your ass. [35:50] Entrepreneurship is a very important [35:52] value of the company as well and that's [35:53] like so anti- entrep like to any [35:55] activity to like any performative [35:57] activity and fearing of failure is like [35:59] the opposite of entrepreneurship. [36:02] You just can't have that as a company [36:04] scales and so you get a lot of people [36:06] coming from different corporate [36:08] environments that have that like just [36:10] like protect their job. Are you able to [36:13] recruit from other food companies [36:14] because like you're so different? [36:17] Most of these these companies haven't [36:19] been founder led in I don't know a half [36:20] century if not longer. [36:22] >> Yeah. Um we can and we do there's a lot [36:24] of good experience they have. You just [36:26] sort of have to baptize them when they [36:27] come in. So that's where the onboarding [36:29] process is really critical. [36:30] >> You baptize them. Yeah. [36:31] >> What does that mean? [36:33] >> You just have to teach them new beliefs, [36:34] new values. Um if you just sort of throw [36:37] them in, they're just going to take what [36:38] they know and apply it. Um and so you [36:41] really want to [36:44] have them assimilate to the culture in a [36:45] way and so a very thoughtful onboarding [36:47] process where you learn the values of [36:49] the company. You learn entrepreneurship. [36:51] You know we pack boxes. You learn [36:52] humility. You learn all these things. Um [36:54] is really critical. [36:56] >> Are the most talented people in your [36:57] company the ones with no experience [37:00] though? [37:00] >> The most talented people in our company [37:02] are former founders. [37:04] Say more about this. convincing a [37:07] founder to like not do their thing to [37:08] join [37:10] um a greater company is a really strong [37:14] signal of the opportunity we have ahead. [37:17] Basically, I would position it as like [37:19] this is a platform for you to go do your [37:21] thing. You can do your thing with [37:22] amazing technology. You can do your [37:24] thing with resources and you don't have [37:26] to deal with the [ __ ] of [37:28] raising money, all the bureaucracy that [37:31] comes with the different stakeholders. [37:33] And I think you see this in AI where all [37:35] the like a lot of founder talent goes to [37:37] those platforms convincing them to join [37:40] a founder companies um how without [37:44] bureaucracy and and and for them to be [37:46] able to fulfill their their vision is [37:48] >> Did you specifically target founders? [37:50] >> Yeah, for sure. Because they have [37:52] agency, they have courage, they have [37:54] humility. [37:57] Yeah. And they're not ruined by [37:59] corporate America or school. School [38:02] ruins you too. [38:05] You have to follow procedures. You're [38:06] not thinking it's out of the box. You're [38:08] following a playbook. Like there's no [38:09] playbook in entrepreneurship. You have [38:11] to like think from first principles. [38:13] Understand the fundamentals and [ __ ] [38:15] just go. [38:16] >> Yeah. We just had Luca Ferrari on this [38:18] and you know he started this crazy [38:20] company called Bending Spoons. He's [38:21] doing it from Milan. Not exactly like a [38:23] startup hub. And he's talking about [38:24] being isolated was super um valuable to [38:26] him because he just did not he can't [38:28] even copy the startup mantras because he [38:30] doesn't know them. he's like immune to [38:31] them. [38:32] >> And his uh point was just like he [38:34] doesn't he prefers young graduates or [38:37] even people that didn't graduate to [38:39] overexperience. He's just like, I don't [38:41] want your bad experience. Like I know [38:42] what we're doing. Let's just take [38:44] >> high agency young smart people that want [38:46] it really badly. And I think he said he [38:48] got something like 800,000 applications [38:50] last year for like 350 positions cuz [38:52] he's in markets where there's there's a [38:53] lot of there's smart people everywhere. [38:55] There's no great jobs for them. Their [38:56] economy is terrible. [38:58] >> Yeah. [38:58] >> And he's just like, I'm just optimizing [38:59] for this. And then I'll come in and [39:01] indoctrinate them into how we're running [39:02] the business, which is completely [39:03] different than school or a bad or a [39:04] company that's like a mediocre company. [39:06] >> Yeah. Yeah. Because the thing with [39:07] experience is like really valuable, but [39:09] there's a consequence to it where you'll [39:12] you'll naturally reason through your [39:14] through analogy or reason through your [39:16] experience, which can be the right call, [39:19] but you're not going to ask the dumb [39:22] question or naturally think through [39:24] first principles because you've already [39:26] done it. So you're just going to move [39:28] faster through through through through [39:30] leaning on your experience. And like for [39:32] me personally, I started a company with [39:35] no experience really. You know, I funly [39:38] don't think it's that important if [39:39] you're have good reasoning skills and [39:41] have the right ability to learn. Um so [39:45] the best is like some inexperience I [39:48] find and then like some damage like some [39:52] chip on shoulder. Like there are [39:54] individuals in our company that you [39:56] can't compete with them. They're not [39:59] giving up. They have something to prove [40:01] and like those are the most powerful [40:02] people to get do you want to organize [40:05] around. Tell me more about them. [40:08] They just got like it's all child [ __ ] [40:10] up in their childhood. [40:12] You can't you know what I mean? Like I [40:14] there's some you know there's one kid in [40:16] our team like I can't compete. I get I [40:18] he just he's going to die before he [40:20] fails. [40:21] and uh he didn't have a comfortable life [40:24] and it's like a really really like this [40:27] is this is different for him. So you [40:30] want many of those people but like too [40:31] many probably break things. So you're [40:33] like in general you want like a balance [40:34] of like those crazy chip on shoulder you [40:39] know some some people to balance out the [40:41] team that are very rational and [40:42] pragmatic and more conservative. Like [40:44] you want a good team design, but the [40:46] people driving the company are usually [40:48] those maniacs that have a chip on their [40:49] shoulder, high agency, and more [40:52] entrepreneurial. [40:53] >> Was this person happen to be a former [40:54] founder? [40:55] >> Yeah. Mhm. [40:57] >> How long did it take you to recruit [40:58] them? [40:59] >> Well, when we bought EBG, he was a a [41:02] victim of us acquiring that. Um, [41:05] >> a victim? [41:06] >> Yeah, because we bought up all the [41:07] supply. So, he was a customer of the the [41:10] the Apogee business. So recruited him to [41:14] join us and do it here. [41:15] >> Victim, I love that you just said that. [41:17] Okay, so let's let's get let's get into [41:19] this because this is one of the um again [41:20] I've been hearing stories about you for [41:21] a long time and then this is the story [41:24] that other founders repeat so much [41:25] that's very like Rockefelleresque. [41:28] Explain what that is. You what e what is [41:30] it? [41:31] >> Apogee. [41:31] >> Okay. [41:32] >> So in um March of 20 [41:36] >> Don't go to the acquisition yet. Talk [41:38] about the fact what what this thing [41:39] does, why it was important to your [41:40] business. And then we're going to go to [41:43] the fact that you victimized everybody [41:44] else. [41:46] >> Epig makes EPG [41:48] um sterified peroxilated glycerol. [41:52] Uh it basically it's a modified [41:55] triglyceride. So olive oil is a [41:57] triglyceride. So triglyceride has three [42:00] fatty acids attached to a glycerol [42:03] backbone. Your body can't digest this [42:05] unless lipase comes and clips these free [42:08] these uh fatty acids off. What the [42:11] company did is they figured if they can [42:13] lock these fatty acids in [42:16] lipase can't break it down. And um so [42:20] what that means is you can have the [42:22] taste and mouth feel of fat without the [42:25] caloric the metabolic impact. Why that's [42:28] a huge innovation is because most of the [42:30] calories in food are coming from fat. [42:32] It's they're twice as much as protein [42:33] and carbohydrate. technology was [42:36] naturally misunderstood like most food [42:37] technology and so it was sitting there [42:39] and it's like this it's it's really [42:40] amazing you can like have your your cake [42:43] and and and and not have the caloric [42:45] consequences so think of it as like [42:47] highintensity sweeteners like stevia [42:49] monk fruit that sort of level of [42:51] innovation so anyway we were using it [42:53] for David and then we were buying we [42:55] were like 90% of the company's um sales [42:59] and then [43:01] like all paths led to like litigation [43:05] So [clears throat] you were [43:06] >> this is a patented technology, correct? [43:08] So you had one source where you could [43:10] buy it from. [43:11] >> Yes. [43:11] >> You just said you were 90% of this [43:13] company's overall sales, but there's a [43:15] handful of other companies that saw that [43:17] same opportunity when you use this into [43:18] their product. [43:19] >> Okay. [43:20] >> Yeah. So there we started like and the [43:22] company was struggling like a bunch of [43:24] >> their company not. Yeah. Like a bunch of [43:27] cats and dogs trying to like make it [43:28] work and it's hard to work with. It's [43:29] not like it's it takes requires good [43:31] product development skills. But we were [43:34] 90% of the of their available supply and [43:38] >> and you'd be in a bad position if for [43:40] whatever reason that company went under [43:42] or they that cut you off. [43:44] >> We'd be dead. [43:44] >> Okay. [43:45] >> And then eventually we became like 150% [43:47] of their supply, meaning like they [43:48] couldn't supply our needs. So anyway, as [43:50] soon as I started the company and we [43:52] were using the ingredient, my whole just [43:55] like this is a nasty dependency. And on [43:58] top of it, it was run by like older [44:01] gentlemen, mostly lawyers. So, you know [44:03] how that is. Like lawyers running [44:05] companies is not good. I'm sitting there [44:08] like, "All right, either they're going [44:09] to kill us, this is going to end in [44:11] litigation, extortion, or we're going to [44:14] buy them." But I was like, all my [44:17] attention was like making sure either we [44:20] buy them or something. And then in [44:22] February, basically 6 months into the [44:24] company, they came to us like, "Hey, you [44:27] guys are killing it. How about you take [44:29] it over?" And of course, I'm like, "Let [44:31] me think about it for a second." [44:33] [laughter] [44:36] But um so negotiated and it was an [44:39] obvious deal. Like these food companies [44:40] need to be vertically integrated. Like [44:41] if you're out there making a food [44:43] ingredient and you're trying to sell to [44:46] a big food company, it's this hell. Like [44:49] because the food company like well you [44:51] don't have enough supply to meet our [44:52] demand and then you're like well I don't [44:54] have enough demand to generate supply [44:56] and then it's too expensive and on top [44:58] of it you're going to like well I need [45:01] redundancy I need two suppliers. Well I [45:02] have the IP I can't do that. So vert [45:05] vertical integration like is makes the [45:08] most sense. So we [45:09] >> and they could not vertically integrate. [45:10] >> They didn't have a route to market. [45:11] Yeah. [45:11] >> So they essentially just bought this [45:12] patent as a way to make money. This is [45:14] not actually real. [45:15] >> Well they developed it. Yeah. They [45:16] developed the process. um and invested [45:19] in it and the entrepre the founder is [45:20] amazing. It just it required so much [45:22] cash that it just eventually got diluted [45:24] for the lawyer's takeover. And it just [45:27] made sense for both parties to like [45:28] merge and acquire. And so we did a half [45:30] a deal where we bought half the company [45:33] and then uh or we bought the whole [45:35] company but half equity, half cash. Um [45:37] and then we got in a situation where [45:38] it's like, "All right, David's growing [45:39] well above our forecast." And then so we [45:43] were 150% of their supply [45:46] and at the end of the day there's all [45:48] these like customers that had no supply [45:51] agreement. Honestly, their businesses [45:53] weren't like going anywhere. And so if [45:56] you didn't have a supply agreement, [45:57] you're just not going to get supply. And [45:59] by the way, me with David, the first [46:02] thing I did when we started was [46:04] negotiating a supply agreement with [46:05] them. Prior to the acquisition, we had a [46:07] supply agreement that was good around [46:09] change of control, that most favored [46:11] nations on price, most favored nation on [46:13] inventory. So any inventory that was [46:15] available was ours. How did you know to [46:17] do that? When you have a dependency like [46:18] that, you just got to make sure you're [46:20] covered. Even if the deal didn't go [46:22] through, you'd have all the supply [46:23] anyway. Like we're we're the elephant in [46:26] the room with the customer. If you [46:28] didn't have a supply agreement, you're [46:29] out of luck. So the way it was reported [46:33] or talked about was there's this very [46:36] important patentable ingredient he [46:38] needed. He was using most of it. There [46:41] was these other companies that also used [46:43] it that he was technically competing [46:44] with. He buys the company and shuts off [46:47] their supply. [46:48] >> Yeah. [46:49] >> But I didn't hear the second half of the [46:50] story that then I also recruited from [46:52] the people that I just copied. [46:54] >> Yeah. [46:54] >> You got a lawsuit or something over [46:56] this, right? [46:56] >> You got an antitrust claim and lawsuit. [46:58] Yeah. Is that still ongoing? [47:00] >> Was dismissed three times cuz like for [47:02] that lawsuit for that lawsuit to [47:04] function or like for them to actually [47:05] have any merit would mean like it would [47:08] be like a landmark case in intellectual [47:10] property. The big lesson which I think [47:12] you've had Lulu on which if I had Lulu [47:15] in my pocket we would have managed the [47:16] comms differently. Like we didn't we [47:19] just like one we let Apogee manage the [47:22] comms a little bit and we just did a [47:24] terrible job communicating. Did you [47:26] communicate at all? there was a a notice [47:28] standing out of the acquisition and that [47:30] if you don't have a supply agreement [47:32] you're there will be no [47:34] um supply but like that comms I could [47:37] have done better like I could have I [47:38] could have done it with more compassion [47:39] and like called the entrepreneurs or [47:43] could have done it differently [47:44] >> in what way though compassion doesn't [47:46] seem to be one of your personal traits [47:47] >> I think it is I think compassion is [47:49] important um [47:50] >> do you have it [47:51] >> yeah yeah yeah [47:53] to be a good leader [47:54] >> show it to me [47:56] >> hiding where are you hiding I just like [47:58] I I I just don't have sympathy for like [48:00] I don't have sympathy for stupidity. I [48:02] don't have sympathy for [48:04] incompetence really. Like [48:07] it was so obvious that if you're going [48:09] to get into it, if you're going to use [48:11] an ingredient that has a single source, [48:14] you better make sure you have a supply [48:16] agreement. It's like fundamental. [48:18] This goes back to something that was [48:20] like second nature to you that you don't [48:21] even feel special. Like remember at the [48:23] beginning of conversation, you're like, [48:24] "Okay, well yeah, I'm going to I got all [48:25] this money. I'm going to chill. I'm [48:26] going to find a wife, have some babies, [48:28] and then I'll invest in the side. [48:30] Obviously, you're an entrepreneur, so [48:31] it's like life and death for you. You'll [48:32] take it very seriously. You start [48:34] cutting checks into this company's like, [48:35] "What is this guy doing?" [48:36] >> Yeah. [48:37] >> You didn't know how rare you were. [48:39] >> Yeah. I know. Totally. [48:40] >> So, same situation here. How many other [48:42] companies are involved where buying the [48:44] same ingredient? [48:44] >> Three. Four. So, it's like Yeah. And [48:46] their response was like, "Well, I didn't [48:48] know I couldn't I didn't know I that was [48:50] an option." It's like, "What the [ __ ] [48:51] [laughter] [48:52] What are you doing all day?" Like [48:55] honestly, [48:56] I found one of my all-time favorite [48:58] quotes when I was reading the book 0ero [48:59] to1. The quote says, "The single most [49:01] powerful pattern I have noticed is that [49:03] successful people find value in [49:05] unexpected places." And they do this by [49:08] thinking about business from first [49:10] principles instead of formulas. That is [49:12] exactly what Apploven has done with [49:14] their advertising platform. Apploven [49:16] connects you with over a billion [49:17] potential new customers in mobile games. [49:19] Apploven allows you to capture undivided [49:22] attention. Apploving ads are full screen [49:24] videos that are watched for an average [49:26] of 35 seconds. That is retention that [49:28] blows other ad platforms out of the [49:31] water. And you can launch on Apploven in [49:33] minutes. You set the goal and Apploven [49:35] achieves it. No complex setup, no [49:37] expertise needed. And Apploven scales [49:40] quickly. They can put your ads in front [49:42] of over a billion potential customers. [49:44] Other businesses have seen immediate [49:46] results scale to hundreds of thousands [49:48] of dollars of spend per day and increase [49:50] their revenue by millions. So you want [49:52] to get started quickly before all of [49:54] your competitors are on Apploven. And [49:56] you can do that by going to [49:57] apploven.com. That's apploven.com. [50:02] >> Is this why you had to raise money? [50:04] Because [50:04] >> Yeah. Yeah. [50:04] >> So your first company you did like a RX [50:08] was like a friends and family loan. What [50:09] was the [50:10] >> My dad and my partner's mom [50:13] guaranteed a line of credit. [50:14] >> A line of credit. But no typical venture [50:16] capital. Okay. What did you start Dave [50:18] with? Did you raise money right away? [50:20] Did you put your own money in? What did [50:21] you do? [50:21] >> Yeah, I put 2 million of my own in as [50:23] like whatever preede [50:25] and then that was enough to get us to [50:27] launch and then launch we raise uh eight [50:32] for working capital just to survive. Why [50:35] not just put up the yourself since you [50:36] already got it in your pocket? [50:37] >> Yeah, because I wanted to bring in um [50:40] some people have been very good to me. [50:42] So, Valor Equity Partners uh Antonio and [50:45] John have just been really supportive [50:48] and I I like how they operate like their [50:50] name is Valor. to take you like they're [50:51] pretty intense [50:52] >> outside of Valor. It wasn't like typical [50:54] investors. [50:54] >> No. No. [50:55] >> Okay. So, friends and and things like [50:56] that. [50:57] >> Some small friends. [50:58] >> Yeah. [50:58] >> And then [50:59] >> and then I was like, we're done. [51:02] >> All right. Like we don't [51:03] >> Why was that your initial reaction? [51:05] >> Because I don't want to spend time [51:07] talking to investors or fundraising. I [51:09] think in C in consumer packaged goods, [51:11] the P&L should work pretty quickly. Unit [51:13] economics should make sense. So, you [51:15] should be really capital efficient. you [51:16] should not be raising a lot of money [51:18] until unless you're going to acquire a [51:20] company or like do what we're doing. So [51:22] that wasn't like on the table in the [51:23] beginning. So I'm just focused on the [51:26] business, not thinking about raising [51:28] more money. So I I thought that was like [51:30] that's it. That's the only capital in [51:33] and then we had product market fit like [51:34] crazy and it got bigger and then I need [51:37] to raise money to find out how to sell [51:38] fish online. [51:39] >> Yeah, exactly. Well, that was funny. [51:41] Like, so so we eventually raised around [51:43] to finance the acquisition and we we [51:45] turned out we did need more money on the [51:47] balance sheet. [51:47] >> Okay, hold on before we get there. You [51:50] raised how much money to do the [51:51] acquisition? [51:53] >> We raised 85. [51:54] >> And who'd you raise it from? [51:55] >> Green Oaks and Valor. [51:56] >> Okay, we need to talk about So Neil made [51:58] a I'm friends with Neil. I talked to him [52:01] on the phone all the time. I talked to [52:02] him about you like I don't know like two [52:03] weeks ago and he's got hilarious stories [52:05] about you that I'm going to bring up on [52:06] the podcast too. But you need to explain [52:09] I like why did you choose him? [52:12] >> Because you said I'm not going to put [52:13] any more money in. You're a second time [52:15] founder. You made a boatload of money [52:16] before. You have all these other [52:17] investors chasing you. You don't even [52:19] like talking to them. You were kind of [52:20] like and this is my own characterization [52:23] kind of like not even rude. You're just [52:24] like, "Leave me the [ __ ] alone. I'm [52:26] building my company. Go away." [52:28] >> Yeah. [52:28] >> But Neil's been and Green Oaks was [52:29] chasing you. Right. So explain how you [52:32] wind up selecting Neil and Green Oaks. [52:33] the investor class [52:36] believes the very very high status [52:38] and they always reach out with an [52:40] entitlement to like take my time. And so [52:44] I I I've always viewed it as like I'm [52:47] not giving you my time. We're not I will [52:49] be respectful but like I don't just take [52:51] investor calls. I just don't do it. I [52:53] think it's a bad use of time. And plus I [52:55] have my own capital so I was like I'll [52:57] finance it. [ __ ] it. That's a great [52:59] position to be in by the way and have I [53:00] love it, right? Like I don't need it [53:01] anything. So anyway, my friend Chad [53:03] Buyers was like, "Hey, my buddy Neil [53:06] wants to reach out to you." I'm like, [53:08] "For what?" And he's like, [laughter] [53:11] he's like, "Oh, he's an investor." And [53:13] I'm like, and I'm like, "Cool. I'm not [53:16] I'm not taking investor calls right [53:18] now." With all due respect, so I passed. [53:21] And then two weeks later, Chad says, [53:24] "Hey, [53:25] I think you should take their time." I'm [53:27] like, "All right, for you, Chad, I'll do [53:28] that." And then I got on the phone and I [53:30] was like, [53:32] I'm just like really focused. So I'm [53:33] like, "Hey, listen. Like this is not a [53:36] tech company. Like the math should work [53:38] really quickly. Like we should be like [53:41] have profitable sales. Like that's how [53:42] we're going to grow. It's profitable [53:43] sales." And I'm like line of credit. And [53:46] they're like, "Great. Well, if there's [53:47] any opportunity that comes along, let us [53:50] know." I'm like, "Great. We'll do." So [53:53] then time goes on, we're just heads [53:55] down. And then I start getting messages [53:59] from former RXR employees where a firm [54:03] was soliciting them for like offering [54:06] them to pay them for reviewing or [54:08] reviewing me. And it's not just one, [54:10] it's like 20 people I haven't talked to [54:12] in like 5 years be like, "Hey, Peter, [54:13] should I take the call?" And I'm like, [54:15] "Yeah, take the call." [54:16] >> So, basically what they're saying is, [54:17] "We'll pay you $1,000 if you get on the [54:19] phone and tell us about your [54:20] experience." [54:21] >> Yes. With Peter. Like, what kind of [54:22] leader was he? And I'm like, "Yeah, take [54:23] their money." I had no idea. Um, and I [54:26] thought I was going through like the [54:27] litigation, so I was like, "Oh, they're [54:28] just like trying to [ __ ] find dirt." [54:30] So, I had no idea it was an investor. [54:32] And then I'm like, "All right." Um, and [54:34] then the Apogee deal happens, meaning I [54:38] the chairman of Epo comes to me and we [54:40] we say, "Hey, let's figure out a deal." [54:42] So then I reach back out to Neil. I'm [54:44] like, "Hey, this is happening. You guys [54:46] want to take a look?" And of course [54:48] reach out to Valor like, "Hey, this is [54:49] happening. We're going to need probably [54:51] some money for this." Well, this is why [54:52] I respect Kino so much is like even me [54:55] kind of being rude to them. They had [54:57] like put resources to do diligence on me [54:59] and in the best way possible which is [55:01] like diligenting my leadership which is [55:03] actually the I think the most [55:05] fundamental thing for this investment to [55:07] work. It's like you got to make sure is [55:08] Peter the right right type of leader. [55:10] They already done that when there was no [55:12] deal on the table. Not only there was no [55:14] deal on the table, you already told them [55:15] there won't be a deal. [55:15] >> When I found out it was them, I was [55:16] like, "Oh wow, these guys are like [55:18] they're good." And I didn't do an [55:20] auction. I I I want the right people on [55:24] the cap table. Um so it was and Green [55:27] Oaks won just out of my respect for [55:29] their approach. Kept it like with just [55:31] friends I know. Um and then Valor had a [55:35] conflict of interest because they're in [55:36] the deal so they couldn't do M&A cuz the [55:38] deal was to finance the other company. [55:40] So uh Green Oaks led it and um yeah [55:43] they're they're amazing. Um very lucky [55:45] that Chad connected us. So before I tell [55:48] you the story that he told me about you, [55:50] you just said I didn't do an auction. [55:52] Why is it that important to not do an [55:53] auction when you're fundraising? [55:55] >> The reason why I didn't want to do an [55:56] auction is one, we didn't need a lot of [55:59] money. So it's very important. If we [56:02] needed a lot a lot of money, I think [56:04] it's different. But we only needed like [56:07] one or two players. We were growing like [56:09] crazy and I did not want to consume the [56:11] company's resources [56:13] in a way that would harm our our [56:15] operating our business. So, I'm very [56:17] sensitive to the resources an auction [56:19] would take. [56:20] >> What are the resources an auction would [56:21] take? [56:22] >> Well, you got to like run tons of [56:23] management meetings. You have to [56:25] constantly answer diligence questions. [56:27] Like, it's a lot of time. So, [56:28] >> your your whole thing keeps going back [56:29] to like you're you're you're intolerant [56:31] of wasting any time. [56:32] >> Yeah. You've said this thing in like [56:35] half a dozen ways, like in subtle ways [56:38] since we've had this conversation. Yeah. [56:39] You're obsessed with time. [56:40] >> Yeah. So, if you think of it as like the [56:41] analogy is like aerodynamic. I want to [56:43] be super aerodynamic through things. Um, [56:46] and then like my goal is and like also [56:48] as like being on the other side as an [56:50] investor, like I want to maximize value, [56:53] but not really. Like if you want to if I [56:56] want to maximize value, I would run an [56:57] auction and I wouldn't care, but I I [56:59] don't really want I want to make sure my [57:01] the investors make money and they're [57:02] they're good with the underwriting. So [57:04] like you want to walk to the line where [57:06] it's like rich but not too rich, right? [57:09] Like you can you can actually if I'm on [57:10] the other side, I can underwrite it [57:12] pretty pretty easily. I want to make [57:14] sure all my stakeholders make money and [57:16] that's my approach. So the con of that [57:19] is like maybe we could have gotten an [57:20] extra 100 million valuation. I don't [57:22] know. But I don't really care. Like I [57:23] want to make sure that everyone feels [57:25] good. And then [57:26] >> why do you not really care? And I agree [57:27] with this. I'm just I want you I want to [57:29] get your thinking out. [57:29] >> What's like 2%? [57:32] I it doesn't matter. It just doesn't [57:34] matter. [57:36] >> And like I care about money, but I don't [57:37] really care about that type of money. I [57:39] really I care about how the people on [57:40] the team feel and are excited and and [57:42] aligned. And I've seen I I've seen on [57:46] the other side of the table and founders [57:49] just prioritize enterprise value that [57:51] early and it's just [ __ ] gross. Why [57:54] is it gross? Cuz it's not about that. [57:56] Like it's about in this stage it's it's [58:00] about the right people and it's focusing [58:02] on a mission. [58:04] It's not about maximizing enterprise [58:06] value at this stage. And if you're good, [58:08] you're gonna wind up with the money [58:09] anyways. It's just gonna take over. [58:10] >> And like we got a good valuation. We got [58:12] fair and but I I I don't want an [58:14] investor feeling like fine, we'll do it, [58:16] but I disagree. [58:17] >> So you said if you're on the other side, [58:19] you could underwrite it. So essentially, [58:20] you want to do a deal where like if you [58:21] were Neil, you would take the like [58:23] that's a good deal. You should make that [58:24] investment. [58:24] >> Yeah. And that's like Exactly. And [58:26] that's how I underwrite it. cuz I'm I'm [58:27] I'm operating as a CEO and then I'm [58:29] operating as an investor too [58:31] >> cuz I'm participating in all this stuff [58:33] as well, [58:34] >> which is a conflict, but I'm generally [58:36] trying to like bifrocate like all right, [58:37] Peter's the CEO, but he's also an [58:39] investor. [58:39] >> You mean you're putting more of your own [58:40] personal money into the company? Why [58:42] would that be a conflict? [58:43] >> Well, because if [58:44] >> I could like lower the valuation for me [58:46] like [58:47] >> Okay. Yeah. [58:48] >> You would self-s serve. You're trying to [58:49] do what's best for the company, not just [58:51] Yeah. I read Michael Bloomberg's [58:52] autobiography for the first time like 5 [58:54] years ago and then I knew he has one of [58:56] the most profitable private companies in [58:58] the world. Yeah. And I've heard crazy [58:59] rumors uh that we don't even have to get [59:01] into which is like way richer than even [59:03] everybody knows he's really rich but I [59:04] heard he's like orders of magnitude [59:06] richer than you've has been reported. [59:08] And he raised I think it was Mel Lynch [59:10] if I remember correctly [59:12] >> 30 million for 30% of the company. Then [59:14] he winds up buying that first like 10% [59:18] slug back to them from from them like 10 [59:20] years later and whatever it was like 200 [59:22] million he paid for that right and then [59:24] he bought the other 20% I think in 2008 [59:26] for like 4.5 billion so if you look at [59:28] it like one of the best investments he [59:30] ever made was buying back his shares [59:32] right and essentially now being owning [59:35] all of his company I think he owns all [59:36] of it or like 90% something like that [59:38] and Marilyn Lynch's point was like well [59:40] we paid you know 30 million in like 1979 [59:42] and by 2008 we made 4.7 seven billion on [59:44] it or whatever the case is. Could you [59:46] see an example a future because I do [59:48] think you are kind of like uh obsessed [59:51] with control. Anybody's obsessed with [59:53] like quality and control and everything [59:54] else is like tends to I could see you [59:57] wanting to like buy back the shares at [60:00] one point. The opportunity presented [60:03] itself for sure. [60:06] The governance is set up in a way where [60:07] I have that. So as long as that's there [60:09] but yeah like I I don't [60:11] >> governance is set up that you have [60:12] control. [60:12] >> Yeah. Yeah. And and I'm good with power, [60:15] so I don't abuse it. [60:17] >> Are you going to continue to raise [60:18] money? [60:18] >> I mean, if we have a need, but right now [60:20] we don't. [60:20] >> But in every round, you put in more [60:21] money of your own. Is that what you [60:23] >> I should. Yeah. [60:23] >> Okay. [60:24] >> Oh, yeah. [60:25] >> SW a little. Yeah. You got to [60:27] >> The [ __ ] else am I going to do? [60:29] [laughter] [60:31] >> All right. So, I get on the u I'm on the [60:33] phone with Neil and uh he was like [60:36] Peter's like one of my favorite kind of [60:37] founders, like the founders he likes to [60:39] dive, which is you you you um I kind of [60:41] like hinted at earlier. It's just like [60:43] nothing's that you wake up and it's like [60:44] you don't focus on what's good. It's [60:45] like everything is just not good enough [60:47] and all you see are the kind of the [60:48] flaws in your business. You kind of [60:49] attack those flaws trying to make your [60:50] business stronger over time. Again, very [60:52] common in history entrepreneurship. So, [60:53] I guess he like came to visit you and it [60:56] was him and somebody else and it was you [60:58] and a bunch of people that work with you [60:59] and you were doing like taste tests or [61:01] whatever of maybe new products or [61:03] existing products and like what do you [61:04] guys think? Like this is awesome. And [61:06] you go wrong. This is [ __ ] And then he [61:09] goes, he said, "Now you said it was [61:10] wrong, that everything was shit." And [61:12] then he listed all the deficiencies and [61:14] the things that he wanted to to to fix. [61:17] Running a business is like it's like a [61:20] river. As long as it's flowing, great. [61:23] But if there's something blocking that [61:25] flow, you need to [ __ ] fix it. Like [61:28] if something's in the way, I ruminate on [61:30] it to the point where I can't sleep that [61:34] I have to fix it so I can sleep. I [61:37] ruminate on the problems. [61:40] So they just like nag at me. This is a [61:42] actually a problem I have. A flaw flaw [61:45] of my leadership tile is I don't [61:47] acknowledge the wins or success. I'm [61:49] only preoccupied about what's wrong. [61:53] So I'm working on that. But I actually [61:54] outsource that to people internally to [61:56] like, hey, make sure we're like saying, [61:58] you know, like our birthday is tomorrow. [61:59] I [ __ ] hate birthdays. But [62:02] our birthday's tomorrow. So I'm like, [62:04] "Please do something so we can [62:05] acknowledge our birthday." But like I [62:08] don't do that. So I outsource it a bit [62:10] internally. But yeah, it's cuz if you [62:12] just fix that, I don't know. The [62:14] approach makes sense. [62:15] >> Yeah. It's almost like what Elon does. [62:18] So we just had Zack Dell on the podcast [62:20] and Antonio's on his board and he says [62:22] the first I think it's still to this day [62:24] like the first two years every [62:26] conversation that Zack Dell had with [62:28] Antonio is it gracias? [62:30] >> Yeah. uh Antonio Gracias is hey Zach [62:33] how's it going good what's your [62:34] bottleneck [62:35] >> he wouldn't he refused to talk about [62:37] anything and he's like what is the [62:38] bottleneck what is the in way of a [62:40] critical path and then we're just going [62:41] to talk about this the entire [62:43] conversation is this and then the next [62:45] thing [62:45] >> that as result okay what's the next [62:47] bottleneck and it's just over and over [62:48] and over again just relentless focus on [62:50] the bottleneck [62:51] >> yeah yeah I think it's like all right my [62:53] job is to scan the holistic picture of [62:57] the business and react to the problems s [63:00] and then go fix them and then get the [63:03] [ __ ] out of the way. Just like constant [63:05] confronting the problems. I I think this [63:07] is like almost all the elite [63:09] entrepreneurs have this exact same [63:10] mentality where it's like you can even [63:12] go to like Buffett and Mer were talking [63:14] about this when they were talking about [63:14] people operating all the subsidiaries of [63:16] Birkshshire. It's just like just tell us [63:18] the bad news cuz the good news [63:19] >> Exactly. That's like the river running. [63:21] I don't good. [63:22] >> Tell me the bad news. [63:23] >> Exactly. um Tony Shu from Door Dash who [63:26] like I want to get him back on the show [63:28] as soon as possible because I can't [63:29] explain why but like you talk to him I [63:30] think he's like 4142 and you just sit [63:32] there and you know if you actually look [63:34] it's not he's like he's not just a [63:36] delivery business if that's not what [63:37] this guy's doing. He's like gives you [63:39] like young Jeff Bezos vibes and like [63:41] he's chasing after something much larger [63:43] that you can't he sees but you can't [63:45] really see at the moment [63:46] >> and he he has he said he has this [63:48] problem too where it's like you know [63:49] they hit a milestone they do some kind [63:52] of revenue or whatever the case is and [63:53] he's like I might go out to dinner but [63:55] in many cases I don't even do that and [63:57] it's like okay what's I'm on to the next [63:58] thing the very next day. Yeah, to say [64:01] that like our export, I didn't do [64:02] anything. That deal happened. I just the [64:04] next day. [64:06] >> You bought a house in Miami, looked for [64:07] a wife, though. [64:07] >> That was a year and a half later. [64:09] [laughter] [64:10] >> Yeah, I did do that at some point. [64:13] >> So, what is the thing that you're trying [64:14] to unlock right now that you see [64:16] blocking you? So we've reorganized the [64:18] group to be a hybrid organization where [64:21] we have David as a business unit which [64:24] has its sales, marketing, supply, [64:28] finance and we have hall pass another [64:30] BU. So we have two we're two BU and [64:33] we're about to have a third business [64:35] unit all operating semi-autonomously and [64:38] then we have at the Medici level sort of [64:42] shared services. Why [64:43] >> why name the company Medici? [64:45] >> I love history. And it reflects how we [64:48] operate organizationally. So the Medici [64:52] they created the conditions for the [64:55] renaissance to happen. They weren't the [64:57] necessarily the doers. So they created [65:00] the conditions. They identified [65:01] Michelangelo, Donatello, Galileo. [65:04] And it's a little bit of the analogy of [65:06] what our the people that work at Medici [65:09] at the company. They create the [65:10] conditions for the business units to [65:11] thrive and flourish. And they're the [65:13] artists and scientists. So at Medici is [65:16] like it's like the money the law like [65:19] the things that are agnostic live at [65:20] there and then the artists and [65:22] scientists the people actually doing the [65:24] work are at the business unit level. So [65:25] the name suited how we operate. Medici [65:28] in our company creates the conditions [65:29] for the business unit leaders and all [65:31] the operators to go execute what they [65:33] need to [65:34] >> say more about the structure. So you [65:35] have all these business you just said [65:36] they operate semi-autonomously. Yeah, 75 [65:38] tells me I mean there are some [65:39] centralized services but they more or [65:41] less are their own business unit that [65:42] have agency and autonomy run their own [65:45] P&L and go do versus like a large CPG [65:48] are typically centralized. So we're it's [65:51] a decentralized approach because speed [65:53] and agility is the main objective [65:56] because you look at it and be like all [65:57] right on the your payroll is too high [65:59] like it's quite inefficient on a P&L [66:01] basis because you have more you're like [66:03] double you have double sales people [66:05] >> duplication of efforts [66:06] >> but to me that's the main design [66:08] objective is speed and so if speed [66:11] you're designing for speed you're going [66:12] to pay extra people to do that. [66:14] >> Me and Rob had this exact same [66:16] conversation yesterday. Yeah, speed's [66:18] important. Like, it's always been [66:19] important and it's really important, [66:20] especially in our market we're in where [66:22] we're dealing with people with mega mega [66:24] scale. Our ability to bring product to [66:26] market fast is is I don't want to lose [66:29] that. And honestly, if we lose that, I'm [66:31] like, [snorts] [66:32] I'm done. [66:33] >> What do you mean you're done? [66:34] >> Like, if we lose our entrepreneurial and [66:36] I say this to the company, like if we [66:37] lose our values and the way we operate, [66:39] our culture, I'm [ __ ] leaving. [66:41] >> Why did you just grit your teeth? [66:43] >> Grit my teeth? You just [66:44] >> cuz it makes me angry cuz [laughter] [66:46] like cuz it makes me angry. I hate big [66:49] fat stupid [ __ ] [66:51] >> I hate big fat stupid things and that I [66:52] don't want to be a big fat stupid [66:53] company. The problem is it's actually [66:55] inevitable as you get bigger like the [66:57] bure like my my job is to fight [66:59] bureaucracy fight the [ __ ] [67:01] >> It doesn't have to be. I mean you even [67:02] kind of stumbled upon or maybe not [67:04] stumbled upon you were uh probably very [67:06] intentional about the way you operated [67:07] this. I just did this episode of my [67:08] other podcast founders about Henry [67:10] Singleton and he read he he led one of [67:12] the most successful conglomerates of all [67:13] time. In many cases a lot of the ideas [67:15] that we ascribed to Buffett and Munger [67:17] were actually things they learned from [67:18] him and his whole thing is I think at [67:20] the time the 70s he owned like 130 [67:23] businesses 129 of them were profitable [67:25] and essentially like they same thing [67:27] they just ran they ran their own [67:29] operations. The only thing he [67:29] centralized was um compensation and and [67:32] uh capital allocation. So [67:34] >> you're on your own you're making cash. [67:35] I'm going to leave you alone. [67:36] Performance equals freedom. [67:37] >> Yeah, exactly. And then you just send [67:38] your cash and then I make the capital [67:40] allocation decisions for us. [67:41] >> So I don't think And he didn't have a [67:43] big fat stupid ugly [67:45] >> uh company. So like it doesn't have to [67:47] be that kind. [67:48] >> No, no, I know. But like the nature of [67:49] these organiz the more people they want [67:53] like nature pulls it in together. Like [67:56] the more people the more like it almost [67:58] wants to be that a group of people. I [68:00] mean, Luca Ferrari just said the exact [68:01] same thing because and [68:02] >> you know he he buys these he acquires [68:04] these companies and in some cases they [68:05] have like hundreds of these are software [68:07] companies so he's like how do they like [68:09] how are you unprofitable margin business [68:12] there is [68:12] >> and it's like what are these 400 people [68:14] doing and in one case he bought a [68:15] company that had 400 people he got it [68:17] down to 20 and now went from losing [68:18] money to it's a cash printing machine [68:20] he's almost making every year in profit [68:22] what the acquisition cost was originally [68:25] >> but that was his whole thing he's like [68:26] it's in human nature to add layers and [68:29] complex [68:30] And I think he said the company value of [68:31] his [68:33] company can raise their hand [68:36] on the person. He's like you don't you [68:39] can just raise your hand. You don't have [68:39] to say anything else but the person who [68:41] wants to add this has to be the one in [68:42] the company to justify it. [68:43] >> Yep. So you got to fight it. [68:45] >> Okay. So you have the Medici level. You [68:47] have all these semi-autonomous business [68:48] units. How much power does the person [68:52] running the individual business unit [68:53] have? [68:54] >> Quite a bit. These are typically former [68:56] founders. [68:57] >> Yeah. Okay. for either former founders [68:59] or they have to be product leaders. [69:02] That's like a credential meaning they [69:04] have to back to my like they have to [69:06] pick up the phone to fix the product. [69:07] They're the wrong guy. So they have to [69:10] be product first. Ideally a founder or [69:12] someone who has that those that [69:15] experience but not necessarily [69:17] um but product leaders. [69:19] >> Okay. Tell me more about the [69:20] organization now. So at Medici's [69:23] product, cash people [69:27] uh law [69:30] regulatory. So like that sits there. Um [69:33] I sit there and we serve the BUS, right? [69:37] And then there's a lot of collaboration [69:38] in general. We're all in the same [69:39] office. There's a cross functional team [69:42] at each BU. So it's a supply and demand. [69:43] So, so demand is sales and marketing. [69:46] Demand is finance and um supply and and [69:50] CPG it's very crossunctional. So the or [69:54] the typical business units are organized [69:56] around sales which is working with [69:58] retailers, marketing and that's really [70:02] demand right? They generate demand. [70:03] Marketing can be mostly e-commerce but [70:06] it's also all social digital and then [70:08] there's the supply side which is supply [70:11] chain which is end to end. So raw [70:13] materials to fulfillment and warehousing [70:15] and then finance which is forecasting [70:17] pricing and sort of finance is the [70:19] referee. So that that that makes that [70:21] cross functional team runs the business. [70:23] >> Wait, what do you mean finances the [70:24] referee? [70:25] >> Meaning they define the framework for [70:26] pricing. They define the budget. They're [70:29] they're sort of the ones because there's [70:31] inherently tension between supply and [70:32] demand, right? Like there's always a a [70:35] healthy tension there. the the finances [70:38] referee in terms of they define the [70:39] rules of the game and they ultimately [70:41] run the P&L in my view. [70:44] >> Explain the tension between supply and [70:45] demand. [70:46] >> Supply [70:48] people are really driven by accuracy and [70:51] efficiency. [70:53] Sales and marketing people are really [70:55] more charismatic and want to generate [70:58] demand and maybe that requires less [71:00] accuracy. [71:01] So they have a conflict of interest [71:03] sometimes because one just wants to grow [71:05] as fast as possible. The other one wants [71:07] to make sure the supply is there [71:08] appropriately and accurately. [71:12] >> I'm still not understanding though. Say [71:13] more about the accuracy. You're using [71:15] the term accuracy. [71:16] >> Why would someone be interested in [71:17] supply chain? Generally like to know [71:19] what what you need. Where is [71:20] >> you're talking about the personality [71:21] types. [71:21] >> Personality types. Yes. Okay. [71:23] >> And their function is like to make sure [71:25] what do we have? Where is it? When do we [71:27] need it? How much do we have? like and [71:29] then sales is like I want to go win and [71:32] often [71:34] they will I'll kick their coverage or [71:36] there will be issues and ultimately [71:38] supply has to go fix those problems. [71:40] >> Okay. So how many business units do you [71:42] currently have in DG? [71:44] >> Uh 1 2 3 4. You said something earlier [71:48] uh that like I wanted you to expand on [71:50] too. You said it's very important for me [71:52] to be aerodynamic as I go through [71:54] things. [71:55] >> Yeah. I just like efficiency and [71:56] simplicity like [71:59] um I think the best design is the [72:00] simplest design and just my my I think [72:03] my nature. [72:05] So how does that manifest your nature [72:07] manifest in the way you're building this [72:08] business because it looks super [72:09] complicated. [72:10] >> Um it is complicated but [72:16] well one it's a very flat organization [72:19] so there's not a lot of depth like I [72:20] have like 25 direct reports. What's [72:23] interesting is I read this book on [72:24] Jensen and Jensen has uh famously like [72:27] 60 direct reports and a lot of people [72:28] when that came out in the book and I [72:30] think he's talked about this some [72:31] interviews too they're like that's way [72:32] too many like how could he do it like [72:33] well this guy's running the most [72:34] valuable company in the world seems to [72:35] be working for him how many direct [72:37] reports is too many [72:38] >> well I used to think that like seven or [72:40] eight was the most you could have to [72:44] really like develop and like give the [72:46] right attention to like develop the best [72:47] leaders possible. [72:49] Now, I think the value of having [72:52] somebody write reports is that it allows [72:54] you to see a lot and it keeps the [72:57] organization um it keeps me closer to [73:00] the problems. [73:02] And what I tell people when my if they [73:05] if they're reporting to me is like I I'm [73:07] not going to manage or tell you what to [73:08] do. We're going to work together to set [73:09] priorities, but like I'm going to expect [73:12] you to like bring things to me. I'm [73:14] going to you need to bring the problems [73:15] to me and we're going to figure out [73:17] together. But like I'm not going to be [73:18] like managing your to-do list. Like [73:20] that's So it takes a certain type of [73:22] leader like report to me. Like I'm not [73:24] going to manage them, but I'm going to [73:25] lead them. Yeah. So it requires like [73:28] this leaders to have just better agency [73:30] and autonomy if they're working with me [73:32] versus a conventional organization which [73:34] is like oh I only have eight direct [73:35] reports. Then you just get this very [73:36] very stacked thing that like [73:40] the hier the hierarchy gets too stacked [73:42] and information doesn't flow as well. Do [73:44] you have a co-founder? [73:46] >> Yeah. [73:47] Are you still working together? [73:48] >> No, he's no longer at the company. [73:52] >> What happened? [73:53] >> He was really helpful in the beginning, [73:55] but most founding teams never really [73:59] scale [74:00] to the to the promised land. Like it's [74:03] always pretty like the hardest thing in [74:05] leadership is that the team that gets [74:07] you started in the different life cycles [74:09] usually is not the same group of people. [74:13] Um, so that's that's a true observation [74:16] I've had. [74:16] >> The observation you had is the founding [74:18] team, let's say there's two, three, four [74:20] co-founders. Usually there's actually [74:21] one. [74:22] >> Yeah. [74:23] >> It just takes time to reveal who the one [74:25] is. [74:25] >> Yeah. [74:27] >> It's the same exact thing. [74:28] >> Yeah. Yeah. [74:28] >> We I talked about Adam Fugi earlier in [74:30] Apple and I think he even said this on [74:32] the podcast, you know, he wants to run a [74:34] very strict and ruthless meritocracy. [74:37] >> Yeah. Same way. [74:38] >> Yeah. And his whole thing was like, [74:39] well, the co-founder that maybe had the [74:41] skills to be the CTO at the beginning [74:43] couldn't hang. So, we had to literally [74:45] like, and in many cases, they had a [74:47] conversation. Adam was the one driving [74:48] it, but he was like, you see what's [74:50] going on. So, like, do you want what's [74:51] best for the company or do you want to [74:53] have like this fight? And in many cases, [74:54] if you just frame it like this is [74:55] obviously best for the company, you see [74:56] what's going on. And like [74:58] >> it's somewhat amicable. [75:00] >> Mhm. Yeah. And I don't like I don't like [75:01] the co I don't like the founder [75:03] co-founder titles because it implies [75:06] some privilege. Um it's inherently anti- [75:09] u meocratic. What do you mean you don't [75:12] like the founder co the co-founder? I [75:14] just don't like what like a thought [75:16] isn't a role. It's not a job. You never [75:19] hire it. So it doesn't have a role in [75:21] the company. So [75:24] I think it's actually people abuse its [75:26] power and I don't think it it should get [75:28] special treatment. So like I don't use [75:32] it. I think it's an abuse of power. [75:35] Everyone has a role. Everyone has duties [75:36] and either you do them well or you [75:38] don't. This is what's getting more and [75:40] more interesting about me having more of [75:42] these conversations is to start seeing [75:44] the same similarities between the people [75:45] because I mentioned Luca Ferrari [75:47] earlier. Uh Adam Fugi I mentioned a few [75:49] times they both said the same thing like [75:51] Luka Ferrari like we don't even like the [75:53] the term founder in the company and [75:55] there's like four founders of Benny like [75:57] we all have the same job and that job is [75:59] to do whatever is best for the company. [76:01] >> They don't use the title at all. [76:02] >> Yeah. I don't It's not on my It's on my [76:04] signature. [76:05] >> So, you define your role as what? [76:08] >> Chief executive. [76:10] >> And how do you think about that in like [76:11] terms? You wake up every day. [76:13] >> Yeah. My kind of forever job description [76:16] is the management team making sure [76:18] they're performing, make [snorts] sure [76:20] we get product market fit and [76:23] continually get product market fit. [76:25] Organizational health. So, just like how [76:27] is the culture? Is are people scared? [76:30] Are people like free and creative? [76:32] Are we living the values? Can people [76:34] recite the values? So culture. And then [76:38] four would be alignment of like strategy [76:41] like are are we organizationally [76:44] aligned? Not on decisions but like does [76:46] everyone understand where we're going, [76:47] why we're going, and is everyone [76:48] incentivized to go there? Is the group [76:50] of people moving in the right direction? [76:52] And then fifth would be cash or [76:54] fundraising. [76:55] So those are like my forever. And then [76:59] I have one the what I like to call this [77:01] is like founder mode but what I've [77:02] always done is like I call it my main [77:05] job is like reactionary leadership [77:07] support. [77:08] So reactionary in the sense I literally [77:11] react to it. So fires or problems I get [77:14] information it's very reactionary which [77:16] is generally viewed as negative but like [77:17] my job is to react to the problems. So [77:19] reactionary leadership support. So [77:23] the leadership is that I either have to [77:25] drop what I'm doing or prioritize or [77:27] reshuffle and then go in and assess, [77:30] figure out, fix it, whether that's [77:32] directly, indirectly or whatever. [77:34] Provide resources to shine a flashlight [77:36] on it and then get the [ __ ] out of the [77:38] way. And I expect that on all leaders in [77:40] the company [77:42] like I call it reactionary leadership [77:43] support. I want to go back to this. I [77:46] think one of the most fascinating things [77:47] about you is this uh like divine [77:50] discontent. This you wake up with this [77:52] fierce competitive drive, but also I'm [77:55] not going to call it unhappiness cuz I [77:57] don't think that's the right word, but [77:58] like this discontent of where you are [78:00] and this constant desire to improve [78:02] things every day. When Travis from Uber [78:05] came on, uh he he had like a warning [78:07] because how old are you? [78:09] >> 40. [78:09] >> Okay. So he's about 10 years older, [78:11] right? And he's like, "What you have to [78:14] worry worry about is that you get so [78:16] he's like the the act of entrepreneuring [78:18] is just dealing with problems [78:20] constantly." [78:21] >> And he's like, he says something like [78:23] when a warrior fights too long, he might [78:24] be too zen. So he's like kind of like [78:26] zen on the outside, but he's like so [78:28] used to adversity and and like it [78:30] doesn't bother him anymore, right? And [78:32] he's like worried that [78:34] >> Yeah. He's numb. [78:35] >> Exactly. Numb is a great way to put it. [78:38] And the the point that he's making is [78:40] like you want to wake up being bothered [78:43] and not being used to adversity, not [78:45] being not doesn't prevent you from [78:47] acting, but you want to essentially [78:49] react to it. This is what your [78:50] reactionary leadership what you just [78:52] said there made me think of this. So, [78:54] how do you think about like what's [78:55] actually going on inside of you [78:57] >> emotionally? Yeah, [79:00] I do have a sensitivity [79:04] um and get angry, but I harness it in [79:06] the work, which is good. I love the It's [79:09] like a It's not a fair analogy, but I [79:11] love like the I love the fight, so I [79:14] seek it. Um [79:17] but I don't think I'm good at tapping [79:19] into my emotions on the spot. I think [79:22] the building the pain tolerance is very [79:24] good though to be able to handle it over [79:26] long periods of time because if it if [79:28] you are too sensitive and you react to [79:31] it it in an affection in your sleep then [79:34] you will break. So I do think it's [79:37] important to be able to like have that [79:38] zen be the ability like get punched in [79:41] the stomach and you're just chill with [79:43] it. But you yeah, you definitely can't [79:46] lose the emotional response. Like things [79:49] don't bother me like they used to. I'm [79:51] getting better at it, but I still have [79:52] that response if things aren't right. [79:55] But I imagine with Uber, he just got [79:58] really really [80:00] thick skinned about it to the point [80:02] where [80:04] everything was I don't know. I don't [80:05] know his experience, but I could see how [80:06] that happened. [80:08] >> So what keeps you in it is you like to [80:09] fight. [80:10] >> Yeah. Yeah. I love conflict. [80:14] healthy conflict. But [80:16] >> thanks for taking the time. This was [80:17] awesome, man. Appreciate it. [80:19] >> I hope you enjoyed this episode. Please [80:20] remember to subscribe wherever you're [80:22] listening and leave a review. And make [80:24] sure you listen to my other podcast, [80:25] Founders, for almost a decade. I've [80:27] obsessively read over 400 biographies of [80:29] history's greatest entrepreneurs, [80:31] searching for ideas that you can use in [80:33] your work. Most of the guests you hear [80:35] on this show first found me through [80:37] founders.