Kith's Fieg Shuns Wholesale, Mandates Retail Stores Follow Web Demand

Kith创始人Fieg摒弃批发模式，依据线上需求布局实体零售 Kith创始人Ronnie Fieg认为，零售品牌若单纯以利润为导向逆向运作会损耗品牌资产；他坚称，要创造持久价值，必须杜绝批发，并将资金用于打造高触感的线下实体旗舰店。 Ronnie Fieg分享了Kith背后的运营与创意历程，回顾了他在David Z鞋类零售领域深耕15年的基石，以及随后的突破性联名发布与自主品牌的创立。他阐述了核心商业信念，包括纯粹为自己做设计、拒绝批发分销和品牌授权以保护品牌完整性，以及相比算法数字营销更大力投资于注重触感的实体旗舰店。Fieg还详述了他在服装以外领域的拓展——例如Kith Treats、Ronnie's餐饮概念以及板网球俱乐部Kith Ivy，展现了构建品牌世界观如何源自真实的个人热爱。在整个探讨过程中，David Senra将Fieg的工匠精神与历史上那些将产品卓越性置于财务捷径之上的执着创业者联系在一起。 在David Z经历了从库管员到首席采购员的15年晋升之路后，Ronnie Fieg于2011年创立了Kith，并确立了零批发、零授权的严格原则，以保持端到端的品牌完整性。 (32:40) Kith在旗舰店建设上每平方英尺投入1,300至1,400美元，将区域电商销售额的激增作为开设实体店的运营风向标，而非将自身增长局限于小众精品店。 (56:35) Fieg每周亲自进行长达四小时的试穿测试，每年涵盖超过5,000种款式的待发售服装，他只为自己的衣橱做设计，而非迎合目标消费人群。 (9:06) Kith正在向酒店餐饮和运动休闲领域拓展，推出了以Ronnie's命名的餐饮概念，并在翠贝卡开设了私人板网球与健康俱乐部Kith Ivy。 (48:07)

Ronnie Fieg argues that building an enduring brand requires an obsessive dedication to product craft and total operational control, rather than working backward from financial targets. Through Kith, Fieg applies a decade and a half of ground-up footwear retail experience to direct a privately held, multifaceted brand spanning apparel, high-concept brick-and-mortar spaces, and hospitality. Ground-Up Retail Training and Self-Directed Design (7:36) Before founding Kith in 2011, Fieg spent 15 years progressing through every operational tier at New York footwear retailer David Z—starting at age 13 as a warehouse stock boy and advancing to floor salesman, store manager, and head buyer managing upwards of $30 million annually. This background gave him direct fluency in shoe construction, inventory curation, and customer interaction. Today, Fieg operates simultaneously as Kith’s CEO, Chief Marketing Officer, and Creative Director, personally directing apparel silhouettes, retail architecture, and experiential verticals. Rather than responding to focus groups or abstract market data, Fieg designs exclusively for his own wardrobe and close personal muses, including his wife, mother, and children. To maintain this exacting standard across a catalog of more than 5,000 styles released annually, Fieg spent four hours each week acting as his own fit model, evaluating raw fabrics and silhouettes in real-time alongside a 20-person core product team to approve alterations or eliminate substandard concepts immediately. Strict Distribution Control and Private Ownership (32:40) To preserve brand equity and prevent commoditization, Kith enforces two rigid operational constraints: the company never wholesales, and it never licenses. Fieg argues that third-party retailers inevitably dilute a label's reputation by merchandising products carelessly in subpar environments. Kith remains completely privately owned by Fieg and his business partner, Sam, insulating the business from external investor pressure to achieve artificial, short-term growth targets. Kith structures its business around an even split between storytelling and commerce, refusing to let e-commerce expand in isolation. Instead, online purchasing data serves as a direct operational indicator to justify opening permanent physical flagships in cities such as Tokyo, Paris, London, and Seoul. This controlled distribution philosophy extends from Fieg’s early retail strategy, which prioritized pinnacle Tier 0 and Quickstrike allocations over the mass-market mainline catalogs that dominated traditional footwear chains. Physical Flagships as Sanctuaries and True Luxury (56:35) Fieg established Kith—named after the Old English idiom 'kith and kin'—in deliberate contrast to the aloof, exclusionary retail culture typical of 2000s downtown sneaker boutiques. Kith builds its flagship environments at $1,300 to $1,400 per square foot, matching the buildout budgets of European luxury houses to create welcoming spaces where consumers can spend hours experiencing the brand rather than facing aggressive pressure to buy. Fieg redefines luxury as uncompromising material quality, durability through dozens of washes, and emotional resonance rather than high price tags. He rejects the practice of hiking prices simply to manufacture an illusion of scarcity, stating that Kith prices its offerings against internal past iterations to deliver more physical substance for the money. Extensions like Kith Treats were similarly launched not as transactional customer-acquisition gimmicks, but as accessible, positive touchpoints dedicated to serving the existing loyal audience. World-Building Across Hospitality and Sport (48:07) Refusing to constrain Kith to the boundaries of conventional apparel, Fieg treats the brand as a 360-degree universe spanning hospitality, leisure, and culinary ventures. Under the Ronnie’s umbrella, the enterprise operates fine dining in London, a West Hollywood sandwich counter, and a branded New York food truck and delivery network. While Fieg acknowledges that pure footwear and apparel retail currently generates higher returns, he views hospitality as essential groundwork for Kith’s long-term evolution. This holistic approach is reflected in Kith Ivy, a private membership club housed in a 16,000-square-foot Tribeca facility featuring indoor padel courts, a spa, and New York's first Erewhon Juice Bar. By creating technical performance apparel alongside dedicated physical venues, Fieg sought to shape the cultural and aesthetic identity of the emerging sport of padel in the United States, steering it toward aspirational status comparable to tennis rather than a casual pastime. While Fieg maintains that Kith's broad lifestyle diversification reflects an authentic refusal to place ceilings on creative ambition, operating capital-intensive physical flagships, private athletic clubs, and culinary ventures introduces operational friction far beyond traditional apparel design. Whether Kith can maintain its hands-on founder oversight as its hospitality and sports verticals scale remains an evolving test of its integrated retail model.

[4:43] Ronnie Fieg: Keep the envelope. I want a job. [9:06] Ronnie Fieg: Welcome to my world [17:57] Ronnie Fieg: Holy shit, what is that? [20:11] Ronnie Fieg: 100%. Like, it's always I'm always creating product for myself. [26:42] Steve Jobs: Nike makes some of the best products in the world. But you also make a lot of crap. Just get rid of the crap. Focus on the good stuff. [26:42] Patrick O'Shaughnessy: everything is shit [30:03] Ronnie Fieg: What luxury should mean is how much people love what they're buying. That it's a luxury to have the product. [35:15] Ronnie Fieg: They can't only have a digital experience if they're a fan of the brand. I feel like I owe that to them. I have the responsibility of giving them the full experience. [54:00] Ronnie Fieg: All of our growth has been based off of that. How do I service my consumer in the best way possible? How do I give them the opportunity to have the best experience? And then from there, we gained more consumers. [62:41] Ronnie Fieg: People need to see this. [68:22] Ronnie Fieg: I remember my life through product. So, like I think back to when I got married and I think about also the product during that time... when my first baby was born, when my first store opened or all the stores along the way. [79:55] David Senra: I'm going to do this till I'm dying. [84:29] Sam Hinkie: Good luck competing with the maniac that cracks himself up while recording his solo podcast, which he remembers because he loves listening to his solo podcast. [84:29] Ronnie Fieg: Yo, if you're listening to yourself as first option, that's crazy

[0:02] I wish we just recorded the conversation [0:03] we were just having, but I love what you [0:05] just said. So, you're like, "Hey, my [0:07] favorite entrepreneurs cannot work [0:08] backwards from money." Say more about [0:10] this. [0:11] >> Yeah, it's true. Like even some of the [0:13] biggest companies in the world, like [0:14] take Apple and Steve Jobs, who's like [0:16] one of your favorite, I guess, like [0:18] favorite icons ever, if not your [0:20] favorite, right? [0:20] >> One of them. Yeah. [0:21] >> Okay. But when you when you see the [0:22] product he was making, you can actually [0:24] tell that there was passion behind [0:27] trying to make product that was going to [0:28] change his own life, right? And I felt [0:30] like uh even then when uh the iPod [0:34] really changed the trajectory of the [0:36] company, you could feel the passion [0:38] through the product and that legacy [0:39] lives on. Like even with the duo that [0:41] we're seeing now, you could see that [0:43] legacy live on. Is it on par with what [0:46] uh Steve Jobs may have designed? We will [0:48] never know. But ultimately he created an [0:51] ethos that I believe really transcended [0:54] and that feeling that penetrated [0:57] everyone's lives really affected us in [0:59] so many ways. I don't apply that um to [1:03] my business. It's just naturally there [1:05] because when I grew up I became [1:06] passionate about my world at such a [1:09] young age and I think that that's the [1:10] most important element of anyone's or [1:13] any entrepreneur success. If you listen [1:15] to most of them, they'll, you know, [1:18] explain how their passion started so [1:20] young in their, you know, when they were [1:22] uh so so early in their lives. Whereas, [1:24] you know, in my in my case, it started [1:26] when I was um when I was 13 and I [1:28] started working in a stock room. Uh but [1:31] even before then, I always wanted to [1:33] dress fly in school and my parents uh [1:36] couldn't afford to buy me the things I [1:37] wanted. So back then I went to work [1:40] strictly for the purpose of like being [1:42] able to buy my own [ __ ] and just dress [1:44] the way I wanted to dress. Uh and that's [1:46] how it started. And I think the passion [1:48] for that grew and as I learned about [1:50] product, it just grew more and more. But [1:53] getting my foot in the door and knowing [1:54] what I wanted to do from such an early [1:56] age gave me the I think gave me the [1:57] upper hand. [1:58] >> But how does like a 12 or 13 year old [1:59] kid get interested in like fashion? Is [2:01] this coming from like hip-hop culture? [2:02] Like what was going on in your life or [2:04] is like man I want to I want to come to [2:05] school dress and fly? [2:06] >> So I'll tell you. So, so growing up, um, [2:09] up until fourth grade, uh, my parents [2:12] sent me to a to a private school to a [2:13] yeshiva. [2:15] And in fourth grade, they couldn't [2:16] afford to send me there anymore. [2:18] Actually, my grandfather was helping my [2:19] mom send me to a to a private school. [2:21] And then in fourth grade, they couldn't [2:23] do it anymore. So, they pulled me out [2:24] and then they put me in the public [2:26] school closest to my house. So, I grew [2:27] up in Jamaica, Queens. So, I went to PS [2:29] 178. And when I when I attended 178, it [2:34] was like a culture shock for me because [2:35] it was so many different cultures. It [2:37] was like the biggest melting pot ever. [2:40] And you know, Queens is the biggest [2:41] melting pot in the world. So, we got to [2:43] see or I got to see um from day one so [2:46] many different cultures in the way [2:48] people were dressing and the styles and [2:51] really there was like a small crew of [2:53] kids. It was like six or seven of them [2:56] that befriended me right away. And these [2:58] kids like that was back when you know [3:00] Polo, Tommy, and Nautica were like [3:04] >> were really were really big. [3:05] >> We're around the same age. I remember [3:06] this. [3:07] >> Yes. So it was it was Are you 82? What [3:09] year are you? [3:09] >> 84. [3:10] >> That era um of like and then going into [3:14] middle school it became even more [3:15] important. So more important the way [3:17] that you were dressing, you know. So I [3:19] found myself, you know, really wanting, [3:22] you know, I used to have to borrow my [3:23] friends clothes. Like [3:24] >> dude, I had knockoff Tommy Hilfiger. I [3:26] literally bought bought it at the swap [3:28] shop in South Florida. We had no money [3:30] and then I got called out at school. You [3:31] want to hear an embarrassing story? I [3:33] didn't even know some you know how these [3:34] husters in South Florida are. They took [3:36] old Wendy's uniforms like the Wendy's [3:39] like the fast food place. You would give [3:40] them like uh like a a colored shirt. [3:43] >> A colored shirt, right? And I go to the [3:44] swap shop cuz we have no money and like [3:46] you have these like street vendors and [3:48] right and I'm like, "Oh, this is Tommy." [3:49] I didn't understand what was going on [3:51] and I wore it to school and they're [3:52] like, "Dude, that's a Wendy shirt. A [3:54] Wendy shirt." I remember being like 12 [3:56] and like devastated that I'm wearing a [3:58] [ __ ] fast food costume. [4:01] Not costume, what's it called? A fast [4:02] food uniform with a fake Tommy Hilfiger [4:05] screen printed on it. [4:07] >> That's insane. I don't know. I don't [4:09] think things have gotten, you know, that [4:11] far. Uh, [4:12] >> dude, I haven't thought about that in 20 [4:13] years. I can't believe that. [4:15] >> That's really crazy. There were a ton of [4:16] fakes going around. And even though like [4:18] back then, you know, a $65 or $85 shirt [4:22] was like [4:22] >> this was $10. I should have known by the [4:24] pride. [4:24] >> Oh yeah, you should have known by that. [4:26] I could have told you back then. You [4:27] needed me as a friend. You know, I would [4:28] have kept you safe. [4:30] But in in in school, that's what really [4:33] that that style like what we were seeing [4:35] around us, that was, you know, that [4:37] that's what we really wanted to be. And [4:39] my older sister, she was working and [4:41] making money buying product for ourel. [4:43] And then some of the kids in school, you [4:45] know, they had the money or the parents [4:46] had the money to buy them the product [4:48] they wanted. And that's really what [4:49] fueled, you know, my my kind of like [4:52] passion for wanting to work. Just like I [4:55] wanted to make money so I could buy my [4:56] own product, you know, and buy my own [4:58] clothing. So at 13 at my bar mitzvah, [5:02] you know, my my mom's first cousin, my [5:04] second cousin, who was David Z, he owned [5:07] shoe stores in the city. He offered me [5:10] an envelope of cash cuz he knew that my [5:12] parents were paying off for my bar [5:14] mitzvah party with the money I was [5:15] getting as gifts. So he offered me like [5:18] I was going to the bathroom during the [5:20] party and he gave me offered me like an [5:22] envelope of cash and I told him keep the [5:24] envelope. Um I want a job. I was 13, you [5:27] know, and he was like are you sure? Like [5:28] there was some money in that thing. So [5:30] uh I was like yeah no I'm sure I want a [5:32] job. And I started the next day and I [5:34] started um working um in the stock room [5:38] in a warehouse on Broadway uh where [5:41] David Z had a bunch of stores and I [5:43] worked there throughout the summer. Uh, [5:45] and then after that I worked in the [5:47] stock room in 8th Street, which was like [5:50] probably the most important part of my [5:53] upbringing and also like the most [5:54] influential part of my life. Uh, because [5:57] that's where I got to see [5:59] like it was really the epicenter of [6:01] culture. 8th Street between 5th and 6th [6:03] Avenue. Like during the weekend they [6:05] would shut down the block. There would [6:06] be like basically like block parties [6:08] every weekend there and the cops would [6:10] let it rock and then the cars were [6:11] parking like diagonally cuz there was so [6:13] many cars. And that's where people would [6:15] come to get, you know, whether they were [6:17] coming to get their fitted or Grace [6:18] Papaya was on the corner or Fat Beats [6:20] where DJs would come and get their [6:21] vinyl. Sam Goody was across the street. [6:24] And then you had a bunch of different [6:26] shoe stores and also apparel shops uh [6:28] where people were buying their iceberg [6:30] apparel or they were buying back then [6:33] brown shoes and boots were running the [6:35] streets of New York. So like today when [6:37] you see like the obsession over kids in [6:39] their Jordans or you know uh kids buying [6:42] sneakers the way they are today, they [6:45] were buying boots like hiking boots back [6:47] then and that's when New York City was [6:48] colder and it was snowing a lot more and [6:52] you know for a good part of the year you [6:54] needed to have boots and David Z was the [6:58] number one location for those products. [7:01] So, you're talking about brands like [7:03] Asolo and Technica and Redwing and we [7:07] had Polo like the Polo Cookie boots and [7:09] the hiking boots, the RLX boots and [7:11] Timberlands, um, Trisetta, Dolomite, [7:15] like all Bear AKU, like all these Gortex [7:18] uh, hiker boots. Hiking boots were just [7:21] everywhere in New York City in that [7:23] culture. It was like it was still a [7:25] subculture but it got so big like people [7:27] were driving from like different states [7:29] to come buy these products because they [7:31] were Italian brands making product in [7:33] Italy and it wasn't mass you know it [7:35] wasn't massly distributed. [7:36] >> But when do you go from like admiring [7:38] what other people are making to saying [7:40] hey I'm going to do my versions of this? [7:42] >> That came that came later. that like I [7:44] worked as a a stock boy like receiving [7:48] product, getting one-on-one time with [7:49] the product, then becoming a [7:50] salesperson, then becoming an assistant [7:53] manager, then becoming a manager, [7:55] assistant buyer, and then buyer. [7:57] >> So, this is just you learning the [7:59] business, not thinking like let me ask [8:01] you a question. Maybe like I should [8:02] start here. If somebody doesn't know who [8:04] you are, you say, "Hey, what do you do? [8:06] How do you describe yourself?" [8:07] >> I do a lot more than design. So, I'm the [8:10] CEO, [8:11] creative director, and CMO, I would say, [8:14] of the company. So, CEO, CMO, and and [8:17] and um and creative director. And I [8:20] think the creative director portion of [8:22] my role [8:24] >> uh has evolved over time, but I am [8:27] ideating and part of every design of [8:29] every product that we put out. So, it's [8:31] hard for me to describe what it is that [8:33] I do because I do a lot. And a typical [8:35] creative director wouldn't be doing the [8:37] buying or merchandising and I do I I do [8:40] most of those things. So I have my hands [8:42] in everything um in everything [8:46] productwise. Uh and then I design the [8:49] spacesh. [8:50] >> Mhm. [8:50] >> I'm heavily involved in in the full like [8:52] 360 [8:54] degrees of the business. The you know [8:56] even even down to um the experience that [8:58] people have when they walk in the FNB [9:00] portion of what we do with Kit Treats [9:02] and now Ronnie's. So, there's a lot that [9:04] I do, so I can't really describe it. And [9:06] it's hard for people to get a grasp on [9:08] what it is that I do if you're not [9:09] following it because it's been like [9:11] building blocks since the beginning. [9:13] It's not like I've given up any [9:15] responsibilities. I've just added on. [9:17] >> You're kind of like I met you outside [9:19] and your car is very interesting. And I [9:21] I I like stuck my head in. I was like, [9:22] "Oh, dude, this is nice." And you're [9:23] like, "Welcome to my world." [9:26] >> Yeah. It's like [9:26] >> you're kind of like building your own [9:28] entire world. [9:29] >> Yeah. And and by the way, like I'm I'm [9:31] head to toe in my product. Socks and [9:33] underwear. [9:34] >> We don't have to see that, but I will [9:35] take your word on it. [9:36] >> Yeah, take just take my word for it. And [9:38] I'm really living the product. I live [9:40] and breathe the product that I create. [9:41] And I'm building product for myself. Uh [9:44] and I think that people know that. So [9:46] they know that there's a lot of love [9:47] that goes into it. So if I'm building [9:49] product for myself and I want to wear [9:50] the product that we make, you know, I [9:53] also up until very recently was fitting [9:55] four hours a week. I was the fit model [9:57] for the product that we put out. So, the [9:59] brand puts out like more than 5,000 um [10:02] styles a year of product between men's, [10:04] women's, and kids and accessories and [10:07] footwear. We built a universe of product [10:10] um and and it's been a really great [10:13] evolution from the beginning. So, if you [10:15] ask me what it is that I do, uh I [10:18] everything [10:19] >> I'm a I'm a world builder, you know, [10:20] like I I built I built myself like [10:23] >> a world that I live that I live in. [10:25] >> But this is interesting. Why would it be [10:26] important for you to be the fit model? [10:28] Because it's literally like this is for [10:30] me first. [10:31] >> No, it's a great question because it [10:33] actually creates efficiencies when we [10:35] get a sample in and then I fit the [10:38] product and during the fitting I make [10:39] all the decisions that I need to make [10:40] for that one product. So, I fit the [10:42] product and then I'm I'm deciding if the [10:45] fabric is right for that body. I'm [10:47] making alterations to the body. [10:49] Sometimes I'll even drop it and then [10:51] come up with ideas on what we need to do [10:53] to evolve from that body or how you know [10:55] a specific design can be better. So I'm [10:58] giving direction in you know live during [11:01] a fitting and if my you know the team is [11:04] all there. So, I have like 20 people at [11:06] a fitting and you have your material [11:08] your your materials team, you have your [11:10] merchandisers, you have your designers, [11:13] um, and then you have like the VP of [11:15] product there and some assistants and [11:17] there we're making like real decisions. [11:20] So, we'll make the decisions on that [11:22] product and then we'll wait for the [11:23] second sample to come in and we got to [11:24] fit that too. I think a lot of these [11:26] brands cut corners. I've spoken about [11:28] this um a few times with different [11:31] people about how the industry cuts [11:33] corners and sometimes you walk into a [11:34] store and you try something on, you have [11:36] a shirt from that brand that fit well, [11:38] but then you try it on and it doesn't [11:39] fit well and you're like, "Well, why'd [11:41] that happen? I came back for the same [11:42] style." And it's because brands will [11:45] want to create another version of the [11:48] same style, but not fit it again. So, [11:49] they'll they'll apply a different fabric [11:52] to the same body, but they won't fit it [11:53] again. and it drapes differently, it [11:55] fits differently, and they cut corners. [11:57] And even, you know, there are fashion [11:58] houses that do that where you'll walk [12:00] into a very expensive store and, you [12:05] know, try some product on, it doesn't [12:06] fit, it fits like [ __ ] So, I'm very [12:09] meticulous uh to every detail only [12:11] because my closet [12:14] every season I wipe it out and then it [12:16] gets replaced with the new season. So, [12:19] if I'm going to be wearing the product, [12:20] it better fit properly, you know, as I'm [12:22] like the representative of the brand. [12:25] >> I want to tell you about the presenting [12:26] sponsor of this podcast, RAMP. I have [12:28] been reading a lot about SpaceX lately. [12:30] SpaceX is one of the most valuable [12:32] businesses in the world, and one of the [12:33] main themes in the history of SpaceX is [12:36] constantly attacking and questioning [12:38] your cost. RAMP helps many of the most [12:40] innovative businesses in the world do [12:41] exactly that. The median company running [12:43] on ramp cuts their expenses by 5%. And [12:46] one thing SpaceX has demonstrated is [12:49] that a religious dedication to [12:50] controlling costs can help actually [12:52] increase revenue because you can pursue [12:54] opportunities you couldn't otherwise. [12:57] And we see that in the RAMP data, too. [12:59] The median company running on ramp also [13:01] grows their revenue by 16%. So when [13:04] you're running your business on RAMP and [13:06] your competitors are not, you have a [13:08] massive competitive advantage that [13:10] compounds over time. Ramp is the only [13:12] platform designed to make your finance [13:14] team faster and happier. Many of the top [13:16] founders and CEOs I know run their [13:18] business on ramp. I run my business on [13:20] ramp and you should too. Go to ramp.com [13:22] to learn how it can help your business [13:24] save time, save money, and grow revenue. [13:27] That is ramp.com. [13:29] >> So, I love how you you've used the word [13:30] like love [13:32] >> like several times. We started the [13:33] conversation. We're like, hey, you know, [13:34] the people I admire the most, [13:36] entrepreneurs came before us, maybe some [13:37] even operating today. It's just like [13:38] they're doing it for like out of they're [13:40] not doing it for money. They make money [13:41] because they love it so much and they [13:42] wind up if you love it so much, you wind [13:44] up building great products. And turns [13:45] out if you maintain control and build a [13:47] great product, you're going to wind up [13:48] with the money anyways, [13:49] >> right? [13:49] >> So the love of this, let's go back to [13:51] like the story you're saying. I'm kind [13:52] of learning like the almost like the [13:54] mechanics of the business as a kid, [13:56] right? This is before you're like, I'm [13:58] learning how the how the business exists [13:59] or part of the business exists before [14:01] you kind of put your own spin on it, [14:02] >> right? [14:03] >> So when when do you when you're like, [14:04] hey, I actually have my own ideas. Like [14:06] so me and you were both know Jeff [14:08] Salaznik who was on the show and he he [14:10] told a very similar story. He was just [14:11] like, man, I was obsessed. I was like [14:13] eating at every single restaurant. I was [14:15] like the weird kid that come home at [14:18] from after middle school and watch PBS [14:20] cooking show shows that and then he's [14:22] like [14:23] >> then I'm like eating all these [14:24] restaurants and I'm creating media about [14:26] this and he's like you know what I got [14:27] my own goddamn ideas on how this should [14:29] be done, [14:29] >> right? [14:30] >> When was that turning point in your [14:31] life? [14:32] >> I was so [ __ ] obsessed with footwear, [14:35] you know? So like when Kith opened and [14:37] we'll go back I'll go back to your [14:39] question in a second. When Kid first [14:40] opened in 2011, we were a multibrand [14:42] footwear shop. And then I had projects [14:45] with brands where I was working on my [14:47] own versions of some of these iconic [14:49] footwear silhouettes for the store. And [14:51] then from there, it expanded to be a lot [14:53] more. But I'm going to rewind back [14:54] because I was a footwear guy, you know, [14:58] and strictly footwear until 2012, 2013, [15:02] right? So, I was basically buying, you [15:07] know, upwards of $30 million at retail a [15:11] year from from so many different [15:13] footwear brands. I was the sneaker guy [15:16] before I became the shoe and boot guy [15:19] when I started working. I was wearing [15:20] like, you know, Nikes were my thing [15:23] before I started working in this brown [15:24] shoe and boot retailer. And then I [15:28] helped David because the trend of brown [15:30] shoes and boots as the as the weather [15:32] actually got warmer in the you know the [15:34] seasons kind of extended and the winter [15:36] kind of like shrunk to like 3 months you [15:39] know instead of the four or five months [15:41] that we were used to cuz it was getting [15:43] cold in October back then and then it [15:45] was cold up until April and now it's a [15:47] bit different from that. So athletic [15:49] footwear started to really become a [15:51] trend in New York City and kind of take [15:53] over that business of the brown shoe and [15:55] boot world. So I helped David transition [15:59] from brown shoes and boots to athletic [16:01] footwear. And he knew that I was like [16:03] obsessed with sneakers. So, um, I was [16:06] going to these trade shows and helping [16:09] open new accounts, uh, new footwear [16:11] accounts, and then starting as an [16:13] assistant buyer, being put on some of [16:15] these accounts. And we built an [16:17] incredible business with Anuzuka Tiger, [16:20] which is AS6. And it wasn't sports style [16:23] yet. It was just Anosuka for what we [16:24] were carrying. But the sales rep knew [16:27] that I was a sneaker head and knew that [16:28] I was collecting product cuz I was [16:31] collecting sneakers since like 95, right [16:33] when I turned 13. That was the first [16:35] pair of shoes that I bought twice. It [16:37] was a flight 95 Jason Kids. I don't know [16:39] if you remember this with the the carbon [16:41] fiber in the midsole and it was kind of [16:44] looked like a spaceship and it was the [16:45] the first like iteration of that kind of [16:47] shoe was a basketball shoe. [16:48] >> But were you buying to flip? [16:50] >> No, back then there was no flipping. [16:51] Okay. [16:52] >> I was buying a second pair because I [16:53] love them so much, you know, and the Air [16:55] Max 95, the Neon 95s were like [16:59] >> the design language was just something [17:00] we've never seen before. I like I was [17:02] just gravitated to it towards it, you [17:04] know. Come 2006 [17:07] when I helped build Anasuka Tiger to a [17:10] multi-million dollar business for David. [17:12] Um they knew that I was heavy into [17:14] footwork collecting. They knew I was a [17:15] sneaker kid. So they opened up the [17:17] archive for me and they were like, "Hey, [17:19] you know, do you want to look through [17:21] some of these styles and work on it?" [17:24] And I was like, "What do you mean by [17:25] work on it?" "Oh, you could create your [17:26] own version of the shoe." And I was [17:28] like, "Oh." So David was already doing [17:30] this with boots back in the day, but [17:32] they weren't branded like David Z on the [17:35] boots, but they were considered SMU, [17:36] which is cons which is called a special [17:38] makeup. [17:39] >> So he was doing it with Timberland. In [17:41] fact, like in 1997, [17:44] David had an idea of making a gray [17:45] construction Timberland boot. And [17:48] Timberland never made a gray boot in [17:50] their history. It was mostly like for [17:53] performance purposes in browns and [17:55] blacks. you know, if you were either [17:57] wearing it for construction or wearing [17:59] it to hunt, like they were really into [18:01] the performance aspect of the brand. So, [18:03] David's idea of making a gray [18:05] construction boot was like [18:08] I was like, "Holy [ __ ] what is that?" [18:10] Like, people saw that and were instantly [18:13] it like we sold like 10,000 pairs of [18:14] that boot in a couple of years. Like, it [18:17] just with no internet, right? So like [18:19] people coming into the store and you [18:21] know that was a product that we had and [18:23] I saw that as a salesperson on the [18:25] floor. I saw how people gravitated [18:27] towards something they couldn't find [18:28] anywhere else. So when AS6 offered me [18:31] the opportunity to work on a shoe and [18:33] I'm looking through the catalog I found [18:34] a shoe. How old are you when this is [18:36] happening? [18:37] >> This is in 200 [18:40] six. So I was 23. [18:42] >> Okay. [18:43] >> Right. I'm looking at the catalog and I [18:45] see a shoe that my mom bought me when I [18:47] really wanted a pair of Ebok pumps. She [18:49] left me outside the store. I was crying. [18:51] I was 8 years old. [18:52] >> Mhm. [18:52] >> And she she brought me a pair of A6 [18:54] Gelite 3s for 50 bucks or something [18:57] instead of buying me a pair of pumps [18:58] that were like 110. [19:00] >> I wanted the pumps too. The little the [19:01] thing [19:02] >> Yeah. That Yeah. That was just that just [19:04] wasn't happening, right? [19:05] >> Yeah. [19:05] >> The D Browns or the Victory pumps. Like [19:07] they were incredible. So, [19:10] I had to wear these Jelly 3s and I fell [19:12] in love with them, you know, and um and [19:14] when I saw it in the catalog, I was [19:15] like, I knew that that's the shoe that I [19:17] wanted to work on. And also in in the [19:19] world and I was collecting and at that [19:21] time, [19:21] >> so when they're opening the archive, [19:22] they're meaning, hey, these are past [19:23] models we're not doing. They're not [19:25] manufacturing. They're not creating [19:26] anymore. Correct. [19:27] >> Okay. [19:27] >> Yeah. [19:28] >> And so old old cataloges. [19:30] >> Interesting. [19:31] >> Yeah. From 1990. [19:32] >> That's even better cuz you just [19:33] mentioned how important it is to have [19:35] product that's differentiated. You can't [19:36] get anywhere else. That's exactly why I [19:37] decided to work on that shoe. And I [19:39] didn't know if people would gravitate [19:41] towards that model. So, it was 252 pairs [19:46] were the minimum. And we needed to [19:47] commit to a,000 pairs for the style to [19:50] be made. And I worked on three colorways [19:55] of the style. 252 pairs of each. And [19:58] then they took the other 250 and then [20:00] offered it to a store in Amsterdam [20:02] called Pata. And that's how the the [20:05] silhouette came back. Back in 1990, we [20:07] created that shoe and uh it took off. [20:11] >> Well, even back then though, when you're [20:12] like, "Okay, they offer me a silhouette. [20:13] I can put my own spin on this." Was your [20:15] northstar just like, "Hey, I'm just [20:16] going to make the shoe look like what I [20:18] would want to wear." [20:19] >> Correct. [20:19] >> So, same to this day. [20:21] >> 100%. Like, it's always I'm always [20:24] creating product for myself. [20:26] >> That's the red thread through all the [20:27] product, at least the men's product and [20:29] even the kids product of what I want [20:31] want to put my girls in. And now with [20:33] the women's product, it's like my wife, [20:36] my mom, my sister, you know, three [20:38] different generations. And I I I know [20:41] what my wife wants to wear. I know what [20:43] my mom wants to wear. I know what my [20:44] sister want like. And I'm I'm really [20:46] designing for the people either if it's [20:48] not for myself, it's for somebody that's [20:50] the muse, you know? Mhm. [20:52] >> And I think that um on the footwear [20:54] side, if you look through this book, [20:57] that was in ' 07, my first shoe released [20:59] and it had a slow start for the first [21:02] day. I had an event. We sold 50 pairs. [21:04] Then the next day it released in the [21:06] store. We sold a few pairs, but one of [21:07] the one of the pairs that sold was to an [21:09] editor that came by from the Wall Street [21:11] Journal and asked me a [ __ ] ton of [21:13] questions about the shoe. I didn't know [21:14] he was an editor, so I'm giving him all [21:16] the information I just gave you. And [21:17] then he wrote about it. And then the [21:19] next day I came in and there were my [21:22] mom's calling me as I'm biking to work [21:25] and was telling me like that it's on the [21:28] cover of the Wall Street Journal like [21:30] like the shoe my specific cuz it was an [21:32] article about like limited shoes. [21:34] >> Yeah. [21:35] >> And then there was a picture of the shoe [21:36] that I worked on uh in the pursuit [21:39] section on the top like right next to [21:40] the word pursuits. It was like right [21:42] there. There was a line down the block [21:44] and the shoe sold out instantly. And on [21:46] the same day, the CEO of North America [21:48] for Adidas was moving into his office [21:50] across the street and saw the line and [21:52] walked downstairs and was like, "What's [21:53] going on over here?" And I was working [21:54] in the store, right? So, like, cuz I'm [21:57] doing I'm buying and um, you know, I'm [22:00] work I'm working on this project, but [22:01] I'm still managing the store. Yeah. [22:03] Right. Like the flagship store, which [22:04] was 556 Broadway between Prince and [22:06] Spring. So, the guy walks in, [22:09] >> the CEO of North America, and he's like, [22:11] "Hey, what's going on here?" So, I'm [22:12] telling him what's happening. And he was [22:13] like, "You worked on the project?" He [22:14] was like, "Yeah." And I had the Wall [22:15] Street Journal there, the copy cuz my [22:17] mom called me. I picked one up. [22:18] >> So he was like, "Let me take a look at [22:19] that." And he's looking at it. He's [22:20] reading it. And he was like, [22:22] >> "So you're behind this." And he was [22:23] like, "What are you doing right now?" I [22:24] was like, "Well, I'm working here. I'm [22:26] When do you have lunch?" And I was like, [22:28] "I could go off in a, you know, in a [22:29] like a half hour or an hour or [22:30] whatever." So he met me and then we took [22:32] a walk to the Adidas store and we walked [22:34] into the store and he was like, "Well, [22:35] what would you want to work on here?" [22:38] >> Whoa. [22:38] >> And then I picked up the Shelto. [22:41] And then the second project was called [22:43] The Black Tie. And at the time I was [22:45] dating a girl um that was um part of the [22:50] design process of Gold Bar down on Broom [22:53] Street. [22:54] >> What's Gold Bar? I don't know. [22:55] >> Gold Bar is a It's a beautiful lounge uh [22:57] that was like the first of its kind to [22:59] be kind of like when all these clubs [23:01] were like really big, it was this like [23:03] really intimate small room. There was [23:06] nothing quite like it since. It became [23:08] this like really energetic like spot [23:11] that everybody like the downtown kids [23:13] were all like gravitating towards this [23:15] place at night. The employees were in [23:16] these black suits and the whole place [23:18] was gold and it was beautiful. Like I [23:20] remember like she was like working there [23:22] at 4 in the morning gold leafing the [23:24] ceiling and I was helping her like I got [23:26] up on the ladder and was helping her [23:27] paint the ceiling of the space. So, I [23:29] was really in love with the space and [23:31] then it opened and I became good friends [23:32] with the manager. And then I I was [23:34] thinking one day, I was like, "What am I [23:35] going to do with the shoe?" And I'm [23:36] holding the shoe in front of me. I was [23:37] like, "I'm just going to make the shelto [23:40] a dress shoe and then have the employees [23:43] at Goldb Bar, you know, wear these [23:45] shoes." And then I ended up shooting the [23:47] staff from Goldbar for the campaign of [23:50] the shoe. And I called it the black tie. [23:51] And the shoes came with a black tie, [23:54] with an Adidas tie. Uh, and that became [23:56] the second shoe that I worked on. And [23:58] then from there it kind of snowballed [23:59] and I was doing this at David Z. So [24:01] there were [24:01] >> you still have a full-time more than [24:03] full-time day job. [24:04] >> Oh my god. So this became a pretty [24:06] substantial business where we were [24:07] selling [24:08] >> where we were selling these products [24:09] that I was working on and [24:11] >> you know it grew and grew and grew and [24:14] that became a pretty a pretty big [24:15] business relatively quickly. [24:17] >> Well, where's the money going when you [24:19] say big business? It's going to David, [24:20] right? It's going to David. [24:21] >> So it's not you you don't have any kind [24:22] of equity, economic tie, nothing. [24:24] Essentially just talent. [24:26] >> Yeah. Correct. Correct. And I was so I [24:27] was the buyer, I was a curator for this [24:31] product and then I was also like a [24:33] general man like managing also the [24:36] shops, right? [24:37] >> Sounds very similar to when I asked you [24:39] what do you do today? [24:40] >> Yeah. [24:41] >> Everything. [24:41] >> Yeah. Basically, it was a little bit of [24:43] everything, right? And he had a team. He [24:45] had a he had a team of people. But I was [24:48] young, energetic, and leading a store [24:51] that was for the masses. When I first [24:54] started at David Z, it was a subculture. [24:57] By the time I became a buyer for for [25:01] David Z, it was for the masses. David [25:03] took the route of like opening stores on [25:06] Broadway and catering to the tourist. I [25:08] wanted to be about the local and I was [25:11] very much into the culture of [25:12] collecting. So, I was already starting [25:14] to collect footwear way before then. And [25:17] I was trading with Japan and product [25:19] that David wasn't carrying. I was [25:20] collecting Nikes at this point. So, uh, [25:23] and and David had a Nike account for a [25:25] brief time, but at that time there was a [25:27] lot of, um, competition with these [25:30] individual businesses that were were [25:32] kind of like running game with a Nike [25:35] account. The Nike account was a big deal [25:36] back then, you know, cuz that was the [25:38] that was the brand that was driving a [25:40] lot of the revenue. So, he didn't have [25:41] Nike. So, I was trading and I was [25:44] collecting uh because I built great [25:46] relationships in the industry. But [25:49] basically in two 20 uh in 2009 I already [25:55] started thinking about hey like this is [25:57] this is incredible what I'm doing but [25:59] also like I feel like I could be doing [26:00] this in a way where I could cater to the [26:03] consumer that's about this product [26:05] full-time and not only when I'm [26:07] releasing this product they're coming [26:09] in. [26:09] >> What do you mean full-time? full-time [26:11] meaning when I was working on like these [26:13] type of projects like that AS6 shoe for [26:15] example that kid that was buying that [26:17] AS6 shoe was not necessarily shopping at [26:20] David Z for other seekers that that kid [26:23] that was focused on collecting and about [26:25] special athletic footwear like elevated [26:28] and very limited athletic footwear was [26:30] coming back for the product that I was [26:32] creating but it wasn't coming back as a [26:34] daily consumer. So the idea is like we [26:36] have this very special differentiated [26:38] product but it's 10%. I'm making up [26:40] numbers 10%. There's 90% of the stuff [26:42] you can get anywhere. Correct. [26:43] >> Why don't we just focus on the special [26:44] is what you're saying. [26:45] >> Right. And I wanted to do that but that [26:46] wasn't that wasn't the road map for [26:48] David. You know [26:49] >> I want to I got a funny story though cuz [26:51] like you mentioned Steve Jobs being one [26:52] of my heroes and I love that he's just [26:54] completely unfiltered. And so uh this is [26:57] like a few years before he died and at [26:58] the time some there was a new CEO of [27:00] Nike cuz he he he loved brands and he's [27:02] like Nike is one of the greatest brands [27:03] of all time. He thought Sony was a great [27:05] brand. Polaroid, Apple. He's like, "Love [27:07] love people that like build these really [27:08] like these brands that soulful brands." [27:11] They evoke emotion is the way he would [27:12] put this. [27:13] >> And he's like, "Steve, do you have any [27:14] advice for me?" He's like, "Nike makes [27:15] some of the best products in the world." [27:17] But you also make a lot of crap. He's [27:18] like, "Just get rid of the crap. Focus [27:20] on the good stuff." And that's exactly [27:22] what you're the the realization you're [27:23] having at this point. [27:24] >> But the the crap was still generating a [27:27] lot of money. [27:27] >> Yeah. But Steve didn't give a [ __ ] [27:29] >> and I don't give a [ __ ] So that that's [27:31] where me and Steve are alike, right? And [27:33] to me, like I saw an opportunity in [27:36] being passionate about 100% of the [27:38] things I was doing, [27:40] >> not about 10 to 15% of the things I was [27:42] doing. [27:42] >> Man, that's an important insight. I [27:44] don't want to skip over that. That's [27:45] super important. [27:46] >> Yeah. [27:47] >> Like, let's be like, I'm spending 85% of [27:49] my day on stuff I don't care about. [27:51] Like, just get rid of the crap because [27:53] this is what we were talking about [27:54] earlier off camera and maybe we bring [27:55] this into discussion is like you feel [27:57] it. like you feel when there's like love [28:00] behind what people are doing [28:02] >> substance [28:02] >> it's just like they do things that are [28:05] non-economic decisions right the idea [28:07] like let's go back to Steve where it's [28:08] like he insisted that [28:10] >> you can't open MacBooks you couldn't [28:11] open the Mac back then but when you did [28:14] open it was beautiful looked like it was [28:15] like a piece of art and everything was [28:17] organized no one was going to see it but [28:19] him and that was his point he's like I [28:20] don't care if another people see it and [28:22] he learned that from his dad who was a [28:23] carpenter he's like you're not going to [28:24] use a He goes listen we're building a [28:25] cabinet or a dresser you put it So what [28:28] do people do? Put dressers on the wall. [28:29] You don't see the back of it. So people [28:30] use people that don't give a [ __ ] They [28:32] use crappy wood. We're not going to do [28:34] it because we know it's there. [28:36] >> And that's the difference between being [28:37] such an active founder and being the end [28:41] user of the product that you make. [28:43] >> It's also what's required for greatness. [28:44] Patrick Shani is like my brother, one of [28:46] my closest friends. You went on his show [28:47] and we were talking, we were upstairs, [28:49] one of the greatest entrepreneurs living [28:51] right now. He's just maniac. He's like [28:53] obsessed with operational excellence. [28:54] And we were talking about his his [28:56] competitors and stuff and Patrick made [28:57] the observation. He's like, "Man, it's [28:59] amazing." He's like, "Everything is [29:00] shit." And in it doesn't matter what [29:03] >> uh category or industry you're [29:04] competing. He's like, "There's like two [29:05] to three guys. There's like two to three [29:07] guys in every single one that are doing [29:09] great [ __ ] and then a whole sea of [29:10] mediocrity." [29:11] >> Yep. And and the mediocrity is when [29:13] you're working backwards from for money. [29:15] >> Yeah. [29:16] >> Right. So when it's when it's about the [29:17] money and not about the product, you [29:19] could see that it's transparent today to [29:21] people. I feel like more than ever [29:22] before actually as like this generation [29:25] starts to like steer back to substance [29:28] as you see vinyl start to pick up, you [29:30] know, and as you see like the mom and [29:32] pop stores, mom and pop stores kind of [29:34] have this resurgence into people looking [29:37] for discovery. People want to discover [29:39] things [29:41] in in real life. And I think that the [29:44] digital world has cheapened information [29:48] and information comes in the form of art [29:51] sometimes and it's like you know you [29:52] could pass over certain things by not [29:56] touching and feeling them you wouldn't [29:58] understand the substance within the [30:00] product. So, [30:03] I'm a firm believer of that because I [30:04] come half my life is pre- internet kind [30:07] of like yours, right? And I think the [30:09] pre- internet portion of my life, [30:10] >> half our childhood, we should say. No, [30:12] cuz like the internet came around like [30:13] early like I was on AOL in like 9796. [30:16] So, yeah. So, like half the childhood, [30:17] >> right? But but but that wasn't [30:18] influential internet. [30:19] >> No, you had to call the internet when we [30:22] were kids. Remember, like literally like [30:23] I got to call up the internet and like, [30:25] oh, mom's on the phone, can't call the [30:26] internet. And then when you're on the [30:27] internet, they can't call you cuz the [30:29] line's busy. I tried to explain this to [30:30] my daughter and I even went up and [30:32] looked uh I uh and I I you can find this [30:34] on YouTube. The noise it would make me [30:36] like what is this? I'm like I was [30:38] calling the internet. That's so funny [30:39] man. It really that's really true. But [30:41] like the first time you were influenced [30:43] by the internet was really in the blog [30:45] era. So the blog era the development and [30:48] the beginning of the blog era was right [30:50] when I was putting out my first product [30:52] at David Z and they were interested in [30:55] the products after that Wall Street [30:57] Journal article. They were interested in [30:59] what was happening and they were even [31:01] writing for the right reasons back then [31:03] where it was before brand deals. It was [31:05] a hobby. [31:06] >> Again, go back to love. [31:08] >> Yeah, man. Doing it for love. [31:09] >> I don't ever want to step away from [31:11] that. So, like everything I do is for [31:15] the love of what I do. The market needs [31:18] more of that. It needs more attention to [31:20] detail. It needs to have more purpose. [31:22] And I think purpose is is huge. I often [31:25] go back to like the purpose behind a lot [31:28] of these products that Apple makes and [31:31] it's to better people's lives and it [31:33] doesn't only come in the form of [31:34] technology. Like the product that you're [31:36] wearing can make your life better. You [31:38] can feel better in the product that [31:39] you're wearing. You know, it can make [31:41] you look better. It can give you more [31:42] confidence. Like I want to give them [31:44] more than what they pay for. So that [31:46] there's so much that goes into just that [31:48] portion of it of making sure that [31:50] there's value in the product when you [31:52] touch and feel it or through 50 washes [31:54] of a garment. There are a lot of words [31:56] that um I think meanings of some of [32:00] these words are changing over time like [32:02] the word luxury and like the word value. [32:05] Like typically luxury and value don't [32:07] come together. Like value is like this [32:08] beaten down term by down market retail. [32:12] And then luxury is typically like it [32:15] needs to cost a certain amount to be [32:16] luxurious. What luxury should mean is [32:20] how much people love what they're [32:21] buying. That it's a luxury to have the [32:24] product. That's what luxury should mean. [32:27] So a lot of these luxury companies I [32:29] think are overexposed now and are [32:32] becoming less luxurious. At least to me [32:34] that means it's over accessible. [32:37] >> So how do you how do you avoid that with [32:39] Kiss though? [32:40] >> First of all, we don't wholesale. [32:42] Second, we don't license. [32:44] >> Why is that important for somebody [32:45] that's outside of your business? [32:47] >> Because then you can't control how those [32:49] uh products are spoken about and where [32:51] they're placed and how they're [32:52] merchandised, then you can't storytell [32:54] around the product. You could storyt [32:56] tell topline by creating these TV ads [32:59] and then you're walking in the airport [33:00] and there's some [ __ ] little rinky [33:03] dink shop um that half the store, you [33:06] know, there's construction done on half [33:07] the store and you walk in and it's like [33:09] messy as to how you see the product and [33:11] the people that are catered to you like [33:13] they might not be bestin-class and then [33:15] all of a sudden people are [33:17] subconsciously associating your brand [33:19] with that experience. From day one, I've [33:22] always wanted to control the experience [33:24] that people have because I thought I [33:25] could be the best at speaking to it [33:27] since I'm the creator of it, right? So, [33:29] I wanted to walk people through the full [33:31] experience, you know, from ideiation, [33:33] you know, through walking out the door, [33:35] walking out the kit door. So, the [33:37] storytelling, I feel like we're 50% [33:39] storytellers and then 50% retailers. But [33:41] on the retail side, that's then broken [33:44] up to what we do digitally versus what [33:46] we do physically. And as the business [33:49] starts to skew more digital, I feel [33:53] forced to open more physical. And that's [33:56] how the brand grew cuz I have a number. [33:58] There's a threshold where I won't allow [34:00] the percentage of the total pie to go [34:03] over an X amount on the website for the [34:06] web revenue. [34:07] >> Why? [34:08] >> I don't want to become a digital brand. [34:11] The touch point, the touch and feel. So [34:12] you're purposely foregoing more sales. [34:17] This goes back to the love and not how [34:18] the conversation started. It's like [34:19] can't work money. You're purposely [34:21] foregoing more sales because you have to [34:24] be a physical. And that's a better [34:26] experience for the person. So if I order [34:27] something from kit.com, right, as [34:30] opposed to going in your stores. [34:31] >> Yes. [34:32] >> It's like way better experience that you [34:33] control the whole story, the whole [34:35] experience. [34:35] >> We're controlling we're controlling from [34:36] the website down. And actually, no, [34:38] you're that's that's not true. I'm not [34:40] foregoing revenue cuz the website [34:43] revenue continues to grow and it's on [34:44] its path. But I always want it to be [34:48] half digital and half physical. So [34:51] >> I want the physical to grow at the same [34:53] rate is what I'm saying. [34:54] >> Okay. [34:55] >> Does that make sense? [34:55] >> So yeah, it's not like okay wait we're [34:57] at 50%. Like [34:59] >> stop make stop selling product on the [35:00] internet. [35:01] >> That would be kind of actually might be [35:03] a good idea. It's like sorry the [35:04] website's closed for a few days. [35:06] >> You got to come back. By the way, there [35:07] are some brands that do that and and [35:09] then create demand because they go away [35:10] for a little bit, you know. Um, Supreme [35:12] does that in their offseasons, which I [35:14] think is really smart. [35:15] >> Are you using the the sales online as a [35:17] as a as a sign that, hey, I need to [35:20] increase the amount of physical [35:22] footprint, the the amount of physical [35:23] stores I have in the real world? [35:24] >> Yes. [35:25] >> Okay. [35:25] >> Yeah. And and I I think that because [35:27] I've done that, the brand is in a really [35:29] unique place because, you know, I I open [35:32] stores where I travel. [35:34] >> Oh, say more about this. Yeah, New York, [35:37] Miami, LA and then Tokyo for example. [35:39] And then as I started to visit Paris for [35:42] fashion week, Paris became the next [35:43] focal, you know, focus for me. And then [35:45] as I started to visit London, London [35:47] became a focus for me. Korea, Soul [35:49] became important in fashion. So I [35:51] started to visit Seoul. And that's when [35:52] I figured, you know, it would be a good [35:54] time to open up a store in Seoul. I [35:56] think the growth that we've had is has [35:58] been substantial. You know, as we're [36:00] planning on opening now, the news is [36:01] out. We're opening in San Fran. We're [36:03] opening in DC and we have the data of [36:05] how many people are shopping online. [36:06] Like I mentioned before, those people [36:08] need the experience, the physical [36:10] experience of the brand. They can't only [36:12] have a digital experience if they're a [36:13] fan of the brand. I feel like I owe that [36:15] to them. I have the responsibility of [36:17] giving them the full um experience for [36:19] the company, you know, for what the [36:20] company can offer at least. So that's [36:23] really the mindset around uh the growth. [36:26] >> This is a privately held company, right? [36:27] >> Yes. [36:27] >> Do you have investors or No. [36:29] >> No. [36:29] >> You own all of it? [36:30] >> Yeah. Well, me and me and my partner. [36:32] Yes. You mentioned going to Tokyo. [36:33] There's this crazy. You probably know [36:35] about this. It's like one of the best [36:37] pizza. You wouldn't expect to find the [36:38] best pizza in the world in Tokyo, but [36:40] there's like one psycho guy. [36:41] >> That's true. I expect to find the best [36:43] of everything in Tokyo, but you go out. [36:44] >> Yeah, maybe. What is the um Somebody [36:46] said this to me that like you're the way [36:48] you make podcasts like you have a [36:49] Japanese spirit. It's like uh what's the [36:52] craftsman shinen where it's like it [36:54] doesn't matter if you're like sweeping [36:55] the floor or making sushi. Like whatever [36:56] you do, it's like [36:57] >> you need to be the best. [36:59] Whatever you do, it's just like you take [37:01] it very seriously and be the best at [37:02] what you're doing. [37:03] >> You maximize the potential of any one [37:05] role. [37:05] >> Yeah. And so this guy, I I went to the [37:07] pizza spot. I forgot what it's called, [37:08] but like people that hear this will know [37:11] what it is if they've been there cuz [37:12] like he does three kinds of pizza. You [37:15] can't make any modifications. You can't [37:16] say, "Oh, can I get the answer is I'm [37:18] going to make these three and make the [37:19] best and then he'll just when he's done [37:21] for the day, he just closes." [37:22] >> That's it. He's done. [37:23] >> Yeah. It just like closes. So if you're [37:24] a privately held company, you said what [37:27] came to mind now is like, "Well, these [37:29] brands get overexposed and they get [37:30] overexposed because they have the [37:32] pressure from investments or [37:33] shareholders like you got to grow go [37:35] grow but for craftsman it's like [37:37] >> I don't know I make three pizzas I do [37:38] this forever [37:39] >> and like this is what I want to do so [37:42] you could if this is a concern of yours [37:44] like stop or slow down [37:46] >> no I do I do and in many instances I do [37:49] but it's not in the sense of shutting [37:51] down the website or right that that [37:53] would be the extreme and I also [37:54] definitely am not going to make three [37:56] pizzas I'm like I have I'm very [38:00] ambitious to do to maximize the [38:03] potential of what the brand can do and [38:07] the brand has expanded way beyond [38:09] footwear and and apparel. [38:11] >> I mean, you just walked in here and [38:12] you're like, "Hey, dude, the filming in [38:13] the Aman is really nice. Uh, next one we [38:16] should do, we should do an Ivy." To your [38:18] point, you're just like, "Well, I don't [38:19] really have any ceilings on my ambition [38:21] and I can like take this into [38:22] hospitality and other spaces, too." I'll [38:24] say this. If I was easily influenced by [38:29] what people expect me to do or what [38:32] people want me to do, I would be in a [38:35] very small box because we started off as [38:36] like street wear, which is like and [38:39] actually we we actually didn't start off [38:40] as street wear. We started off with a [38:42] with a a cut and sew pant uh out of the [38:45] garment district in New York. And [38:47] there's a there's a long story about [38:48] that. I could go on for two hours about [38:50] that pant, but that pant was the entry [38:52] into apparel. But we didn't start off [38:53] with a t-shirt, a graphic t-shirt. We [38:56] started off with a pant and then that [38:57] pant turned into a varsity jacket and [38:59] then and that be that happened because [39:03] people were I created community around [39:05] the store, right? And how did that [39:07] happen? Because at the time, like I said [39:10] before, like I was collecting and I was [39:12] uh big into the culture of of product in [39:16] downtown in New York, but the stores [39:19] that were offering [39:21] this like street wear product and and [39:25] limited footwear, they were arrogant. [39:28] you would walk into the spaces and they [39:30] weren't very friendly, you know, and I I [39:33] saw an issue with that because I came [39:35] from David Z that was a becoming more of [39:37] a mass retailer and I always felt like [39:41] and I was a consumerf facing at the [39:43] time. I always felt like having the [39:45] conversation with anyone who walked in, [39:46] even if they weren't coming in for [39:47] product, it's like important for them to [39:49] feel at home, you know? So, the concept [39:52] of Kith, which means friends, part of [39:54] the phrase kith and kin, friends and [39:55] family, it means friends. I wanted [39:57] people to feel like they could come to [40:00] the space and enjoy their day even if [40:02] they weren't going to buy anything. So, [40:04] that's what fueled [40:06] me to open this the store in the first [40:08] place. And then we built this great [40:10] community based on those, you know, [40:12] based based on that concept of like, you [40:15] know, those values of like wanting to be [40:17] very welcoming just easily created a [40:20] community because it was like something [40:22] that they were looking for. They just [40:23] didn't know it. So as I created a [40:25] community, they just wanted to wear the [40:27] name of the store on their chest. They [40:30] wanted to represent the store. We [40:31] weren't a brand yet. We were a store. [40:33] >> Explain what the difference is then [40:35] compared to now. [40:37] What was the initial thing? You were [40:38] just talking about people's product. [40:39] >> Now, now we're a brand before anything, [40:41] right? So, I think the the difference [40:44] today, the delta is huge between then [40:46] and now. But I I will say that I'll [40:49] explain the difference to you in a in [40:51] even in a simpler term. Back when I [40:53] first opened the store, my attorney [40:56] asked me if I wanted to register the IP [40:58] for product. And I was like, well, I'm [41:00] not making any product. I'm like working [41:02] collaboratively with these footwear [41:04] brands, but I'm not making any apparel. [41:06] So, I don't need to buy the mark, right? [41:08] And he's like, "Oh, you still have [41:09] protection rights even if you use it on [41:10] apparel. Like, you'll have some rights [41:12] anyway." I was like, "Okay." Then four [41:15] years later, there's a this [ __ ] [41:19] crook out of Italy that went and [41:22] registered my mark, the same mark in [41:25] Italy for apparel. And I've already [41:27] become successful with apparel. I just [41:29] didn't revisit buying the IP, [41:31] >> right? So all of a sudden, you know, I I [41:35] then had to buy my IP and negotiate with [41:39] this crook to buy the IP back and own it [41:43] globally. And that was a very expensive [41:45] lesson that I learned. But I I didn't [41:48] even consider myself in the beginning. I [41:50] wasn't considering myself a brand at [41:51] all. Even for the first couple years of [41:52] me making product, I was just like, [41:54] "Yeah, that's just like cool [ __ ] I have [41:56] on the side for the store." But very [41:59] quickly it turned. And then when the [42:01] kith the small 800 foot space in the [42:04] back of atrium then expanded into the [42:07] full atrium space because we were that [42:10] successful we took another 5,000 ft. All [42:13] of a sudden I had to quickly put a plan [42:16] together around becoming a brand. I [42:18] found one of my all-time favorite quotes [42:20] when I was reading the book 0ero to1. [42:21] The quote says, "The single most [42:23] powerful pattern I have noticed is that [42:25] successful people find value in [42:27] unexpected places and they do this by [42:30] thinking about business from first [42:31] principles instead of formulas." That is [42:34] exactly what Apploven has done with [42:36] their advertising platform. Apploven [42:38] connects you with over a billion [42:39] potential new customers in mobile games. [42:41] Apploven allows you to capture undivided [42:43] attention. Apploven ads are full screen [42:46] videos that are watched for an average [42:48] of 35 seconds. That is retention that [42:50] blows other ad platforms out of the [42:52] water. And you can launch on Apploven in [42:55] minutes. You set the goal and AppLoven [42:57] achieves it. No complex setup, no [42:59] expertise needed. And Apploven scales [43:02] quickly. They can put your ads in front [43:03] of over a billion potential customers. [43:06] Other businesses have seen immediate [43:08] results, scale to hundreds of thousands [43:10] of dollars of spend per day, and [43:12] increase their revenue by millions. So, [43:14] you want to get started quickly before [43:15] all of your competitors are on Apploven. [43:18] And you can do that by going to [43:19] apploven.com. That's apploven.com. [43:23] When you were 800 ft, what are you [43:25] selling in the store? [43:25] >> Only footwear. And then apparel was like [43:28] >> Are these footwear that are only the [43:31] collaborations you're doing? It's still [43:33] the same thing when you were David. [43:34] Small percentage collaboration. [43:36] >> David was not a top tier distributor of [43:39] product. [43:40] >> Okay. [43:40] >> Right. Or retailer of product. [43:42] >> David had main cataloges of product. And [43:45] then I opened this store strictly to [43:48] have the top tier of distribution from [43:50] all of the brands I was carrying because [43:52] all these brands, [43:53] >> what does that mean, top tier [43:54] distribution? [43:54] >> I'll explain. Okay, so for example, and [43:56] the easiest one to explain would be [43:58] Nike. Nike has what's called a tier zero [44:01] and then they even have quick strikes [44:03] which are below tier zero. So tier zero [44:05] would be the most limited product they [44:08] make. Quick strike would be the second [44:10] layer to that and then you have the [44:11] mainline collection which is a catalog [44:13] that a dick sporting goods gets to buy [44:15] into. [44:15] >> Yeah. [44:16] >> Okay. [44:17] >> The whole premise behind the Kith space [44:20] was to have the best footwear wall in [44:22] the world and that was going to have [44:24] like top tier and this is at a time [44:26] where it wasn't this popular. Sneaker [44:28] culture grew a ton since then but top [44:31] tier distribution from all the brands. I [44:33] didn't invent that. Sneaker boutiques [44:34] were a thing, but I wanted to be the [44:36] best of and I had enough knowledge as a [44:38] buyer um and as a merchandiser and as a [44:41] salesperson, I I had enough knowledge of [44:44] knowing how to do that in the like and [44:47] curate the best wall in the world. [44:50] >> Okay. So, you combine this like industry [44:52] knowledge with the fact that at this [44:53] point you're over 10 years deep into [44:55] just being a [44:56] >> a collector. A collector. Exactly. So, [44:58] even even longer. So you then combine [45:00] the two into the very first gift store [45:02] which is again 800 ft, [45:04] >> right? And but then I also because of [45:06] the relationships I built [45:07] >> opening these accounts at David Z and [45:09] also buying from these accounts at David [45:11] Z, I was able to build um amazing [45:14] relationships where I was then working [45:16] on product with all these brands for [45:18] Kith. So we had top tier distribution [45:21] from these brands but then we also had [45:23] collaborative product that I was working [45:24] with these brands on you know so we had [45:27] very limited product and that was [45:30] keeping people coming to the door for [45:32] very special product but they were also [45:34] coming to the door to see this the the [45:36] special product that these brands were [45:38] releasing. So there were like major [45:41] release dates for all these brands for [45:42] different product and we were one of the [45:45] you know I'm sure you heard of Virgil. [45:47] >> Yeah. you know, and you know, Virgil and [45:49] Nike worked on incredible product, you [45:51] know, Kith was one of the main retailers [45:54] to carry that product in the States, you [45:56] know, and then Yeezy product with [45:58] Adidas, for example. There are a lot of [46:00] other products that sit within that tier [46:02] where Kith would become the main [46:03] destination for people to come and buy [46:05] those products. Um, and and we built we [46:08] built a community around that. And then [46:10] from that point where apparel started to [46:13] sell at the rate that it was the growth [46:16] that we had for our brand for our house [46:18] brand for our fashion brand for Kith was [46:21] surpassing any demand that we had for [46:23] anything else. So as we started to open [46:26] up more doors, you know, we then, you [46:29] know, had that offering for different [46:31] communities and different cities. And as [46:33] we saw the success of the different [46:35] stores, we understood that our reach was [46:37] global. [46:39] And today, for example, when we have a [46:41] release of product like, you know, we [46:44] just released a big project with BMW [46:46] that was about a month ago, I would say. [46:48] >> Is that what I just saw outside? [46:50] >> That's from the last project. [46:51] >> Okay. Can other people buy that? or is [46:53] that something you did custom for [46:54] yourself? [46:55] >> No, that was uh we had 47 of those made [46:57] and 47 stood for the years between the [46:59] M1 and the and the XM because those are [47:02] the only two one-off M cars that BMW [47:04] ever created. [47:05] >> Okay. [47:06] >> So, like for example, you can get an X5 [47:09] uh and the X5 will there'll be an X5M, [47:12] but there's a regular X5. For the XM, it [47:15] was only a M version of that car. For [47:17] the M1, there was only an M version of [47:19] that car. So 47 years between them and [47:21] we made 47 of those uh of those. [47:24] >> You have one of the 47. That's what I [47:25] just saw. [47:25] >> Correct. Yeah. I have two of the 47 [47:27] because it came in purple and black and [47:28] I have one. [47:29] >> Of course you have both. [47:30] >> Of course I do. So So when we worked [47:32] with BMW, I'm bringing this up because [47:35] globally in Seoul, Tokyo, France, [47:40] London, New York, Miami, LA, Dallas, [47:42] Chicago, there'll be lines outside of [47:45] every door that we have globally. Now I [47:49] know that there are very few companies [47:52] that do that that have the demand in [47:54] different cities and release something [47:56] and on you know on release date you have [47:58] lines outside the space. I know that [48:01] there are other brands that do that but [48:02] I don't ever take that for granted. So [48:04] we know that we have global reach and at [48:07] this point with the power that the brand [48:09] has and the ambition that I have to grow [48:13] outside of just product that's where [48:16] Kith Ivy is born. Explain what Kith Ivy [48:18] is. [48:19] >> Kith Ivy is a membership club for avid [48:21] paddle players, but also for people who [48:23] want access to a spa, a very elevated [48:26] spa. And there's a private dining room [48:29] with a viewing experience. And there's a [48:31] gym and there's a shop. It's 16,000 [48:34] square ft in the top floor of a building [48:36] in Tribeca. And then there's three [48:38] courts that people can play paddle on [48:40] upstairs. And then we also have an Awan [48:42] Juice Bar, the first Awan Juice Bar in [48:44] New York. Uh in that [48:45] >> went viral when it came out. Yeah, for [48:47] sure. [48:47] >> This is before me me and you even met [48:49] and I was just like I saw that [48:50] everywhere. [48:51] >> Yeah, it was it it was it was pretty [48:53] insane. Um [48:55] and that that has become a really [48:58] special place. Um especially for me and [49:01] when thinking about the space, I really [49:02] built it first for me like I do with [49:05] anything else. whether it's a product or [49:07] a space, I'm doing it for myself first [49:09] because I know that my eye for the brand [49:12] um and the lens has been a consistent [49:14] lens for 15 years. That expanded uh what [49:18] the brand can do uh through a [49:20] hospitality lens. I love that portion of [49:23] the business now. And that idea then [49:26] like started to trickle into like what [49:28] I'm doing now with Ronnie's. So Ronny's [49:31] is a fine dining restaurant in London. [49:33] And Ronnie's Pronto is a gourmet [49:36] sandwich shop with a window and a patio [49:38] in West Hollywood. And now I have plans [49:41] on what I'm going to do to bring that to [49:42] New York, which I'm working on now, [49:43] which will end up happening the end of [49:45] this month. As I have a book here that [49:49] speaks to um 1,800 designs because I [49:52] spend a lot of time on footwear. [49:56] Footwear has always been the anchor but [49:58] now serves as a a small a much smaller [50:01] piece of the business because the Kith [50:03] product has surpassed anything that [50:06] we've done categorically in the brand. [50:08] But as we get into hospitality and I see [50:10] the opportunity of growth, you know, [50:13] outside of product, that's what I think [50:14] the future of the brand will look like. [50:16] It'll be there'll be like multiple [50:19] categories that sit outside of product. [50:20] What's the better business? I I know [50:22] you're not now you're not doing this for [50:23] money. Obviously, you're very [50:24] successful, but like to me, wouldn't [50:26] product be a better, it's a better [50:28] financially performing business than [50:29] hospitality. Or am I wrong on that? [50:30] >> No, you're right on that. [50:31] >> Okay. [50:32] >> You're right. Um, you're right today, [50:34] you know? You're right today for my [50:36] business. Got it. [50:37] >> You know, so um [50:40] like I gave the brand the opportunity to [50:44] grow organically and maximize its [50:45] potential. I'm planting like larger [50:48] seeds in other categories of business [50:51] that I plan on growing organically and [50:53] authentically. I won't force the growth, [50:56] but if I feel like there is demand above [50:58] and beyond what it is that I'm doing, [51:00] I'm going to try to expand that. And I [51:01] think that we've provided this like [51:03] experience for people who live in that [51:06] area near Tribeca. I've I I think that [51:09] Kith Ivy have has changed I know that I [51:11] have. I don't think because people have [51:13] told me that that space has literally [51:15] changed their lives [51:17] living there cuz you know like for that [51:19] kind of experience you used to have to [51:20] travel outside the city you know outside [51:23] New York maybe. So [51:26] I think that being disruptive in the way [51:30] that that is and being polarizing in the [51:33] way that we uh that we show up is a part [51:36] of the DNA of what we do you know as we [51:39] try to disrupt other categories of [51:40] business. But it's hard for me to [51:42] describe and get into like stories that [51:46] sit two or three layers under the [51:48] surface if if you don't first understand [51:51] what it is that I do. [51:51] >> One thing I am curious about is like [51:53] this very unique decision like why put [51:55] in Kith treats? Like where did that idea [51:58] come from? You did it early, but like [52:01] where did that idea come from? Like why [52:02] even do that? When I expanded the [52:03] Brooklyn space, I wanted to add um an [52:06] element of happiness where [52:10] it would 100% undoubtedly be a happy [52:14] bite of something so you'd smile, right? [52:18] And I wanted there to be another way for [52:20] people to consume the brand, you know, [52:22] for less than 10 bucks. That was the [52:24] idea. And I knew that it would be a loss [52:26] leader or I thought it would be a loss [52:28] leader. So, originally it was going to [52:30] be a white chocolate bread space that I [52:33] had uh for the first time in Club Med. [52:36] >> White chocolate bread space. [52:38] >> So, if what [52:39] >> I traveled to uh Club Med for vacation a [52:42] bunch and there in the cafeteria there's [52:45] this very famous white chocolate bread [52:48] and I had it there and loved it and [52:50] thought of the concept for even having [52:53] some kind of FNB portion of the store. [52:56] That's where I came up with the concept. [52:57] I was like, "People need to smell this." [53:00] Cuz when you walk into the cafeteria, it [53:02] was like all you smelled. People need to [53:03] smell it as you're walking past the [53:05] store. So the venting out from the [53:06] building, I wanted people to smell the [53:08] white chocolate bread. So I brought the [53:10] chef over to New York and we started [53:12] working on this white chocolate bread [53:14] back at Cafe Bari on Spring and Broadway [53:16] before it became the Nike store. It was [53:17] a very famous cafe. The chef left and we [53:20] tried to make it ourselves and we just [53:22] couldn't make it right. So, as we're [53:24] walking to the deli, I'm watching this [53:26] guy behind the counter throw frozen [53:29] fruit into this machine and pulled a [53:30] lever and like it was coming out soft [53:32] serve. [53:33] >> So, I um I saw a box of cereal as a [53:38] cereal fanatic saw cereal and saw ice [53:40] cream in the tub and I paid him 20 bucks [53:42] to throw it into the machine and see [53:43] what happens. [53:44] >> Mhm. [53:44] >> And it just it came out perfect. So, I [53:48] got the idea of mixing cereal with ice [53:51] cream there at the deli while we were [53:54] trying to figure out this white [53:54] chocolate bread concept. And then from [53:57] there, I decided that that's what we [53:58] were going to do. So, we flipped it to [54:00] the concept of a cereal bar, cereal ice [54:02] cream bar. And then from there, it grew [54:04] to be a lot more than that. But that's [54:06] where it started. And then I paid [54:07] attention to people as they were eating [54:08] that. And every single person that would [54:10] take a bite would smile. And that's [54:13] where the concept was was uh created. [54:15] >> But then you said initially you thought [54:16] it was going to be a lost leader. So [54:17] it's just like I'm just going to get [54:18] more people [54:20] >> more people's attention. This is might [54:22] be their first exposure to Kith and then [54:24] they're like, "Oh, this is nice. What's [54:25] happening next door?" [54:26] >> No. [54:27] >> Is that the idea or No, [54:28] >> no, no. It was like people that were [54:29] coming to the shop. [54:30] >> Oh, see a reverse. [54:31] >> Correct. [54:32] >> Okay. If you have it or if you think [54:34] about it the other way around the way [54:35] you just mentioned, then you're forcing [54:37] the issue because what you're trying to [54:39] do is you're trying to create a new [54:40] consumer [54:41] >> and I already had the consumer. So [54:43] everything that started, you know, when [54:45] Kith was first built, I was so paranoid [54:48] about whether or not we'd be able to [54:50] even break even. And then once we were [54:52] able to do that, I was so happy that [54:54] became just a starting point. And the [54:56] the organic base that I had growing it [55:00] from there was just like idea after idea [55:02] as building blocks, you know, but it [55:05] wasn't until a lot later that I thought, [55:07] hey, let's do something over here and [55:09] start a new and start building a new [55:10] consumer. I'm glad you said that because [55:12] it ties to back to ex where this this [55:15] like tangent we've been going on in the [55:16] most beautiful way of the conversation. [55:18] It's like well yeah but I just want to [55:19] focus on like the 10 to 15% that I [55:21] really love and not this other stuff. [55:22] And the reason I thought of the ice [55:24] cream as the reverse cuz I just read [55:26] this very obscure biography of Sam [55:27] Walton and in you know people don't [55:29] understand he built obviously they [55:30] understand built the largest retail [55:32] empire in the world but for the first [55:33] five and a half years of his career he [55:34] had one single store in a town of like [55:36] 2,000 people and he did not know how he [55:38] did not have what you had where like I [55:40] have the people already how do I [55:41] continue to serve them which is where [55:42] you're going to he's like I need to get [55:44] them in the store. So he put like an ice [55:45] cream uh cart out front. He'd do [55:47] popcorn. He would do all this stuff. Get [55:49] more people in more people. Which is why [55:51] I drew the analogy and you're like, "No, [55:52] no, I already have the people this core [55:54] group of really we're building a really [55:56] special almost like and I mean this in a [55:58] the the you know in like a positive way. [56:00] It's like this cultlike following." [56:02] >> Yeah. [56:03] >> And then okay you that is so special and [56:05] rare. How do we continue to serve them [56:07] and extend it? Not the other way around. [56:09] All of our growth has been based off of [56:11] that. How do I service my consumer in [56:15] the best way possible? How do I give [56:17] them the opportunity to have the best [56:20] experience? And then from there, we [56:22] gained more consumers. [56:23] >> And then you knew this because you [56:25] remember go back to that story about the [56:26] the gray Timberlands, right? This is [56:28] pre- internet, right? It's like they if [56:31] you serve this cultlike following that [56:32] you have, they will go out and recruit [56:34] other people on your behalf. [56:35] >> 100%. And that when it happens [56:37] organically in that way and people then [56:40] hear it word of mouth rather than seeing [56:42] it on Instagram and like becoming [56:45] curious off of a photo that the bridge [56:48] of emotion that people have to the [56:50] brand, it just becomes a way stronger [56:52] bridge, right? When they could discover [56:54] it themselves based off of what what [56:56] people said or when they walk into the [56:57] space for the first time. people in [57:00] their minds [57:02] um don't necessarily think the space [57:05] would be as grand as it is when they [57:07] walk in. So, a lot of the times and you [57:10] know through conversations with some of [57:12] my GMs in the store like yo people walk [57:14] in with suitcases first stop from the [57:16] airport and they'll walk into the store [57:19] and just stand there and he's like it [57:22] happens multiple times a day where I [57:24] have to like like excuse me do you need [57:26] help or and they're like no I just we're [57:29] just taking it in. Like walking into the [57:32] West Hollywood store today it's [57:34] jaw-dropping. It's like every time I [57:36] walk in there, I still I'm like [57:37] emotional when I walk in because I'm I [57:40] can't believe we've gotten to the point [57:41] where I can build this for the community [57:43] for people to come in and have this kind [57:45] of space. I could build a space where [57:47] the product sells itself. At this point, [57:49] the product has such a great following [57:51] because there's so much value in the [57:52] product. I don't need to build these [57:54] amazing spaces at $13,400 a foot, which [57:58] is what luxury brands are spending. But [58:00] I do that because this is like how I [58:02] give back to the consumer for giving [58:04] them an experience they could come in [58:06] and really cherish, you know, and then [58:08] they make days out of it where families [58:10] will come to the store and spend time [58:11] like real time in the space and then [58:14] they'll go to treats or they'll go to [58:15] Ronnie's and they'll they'll really make [58:16] a day out of it. So I never take [58:19] people's time for granted, you know, I [58:21] never take people's, you know, spending [58:23] power for granted. And I always feel [58:25] like we need to make better product and [58:27] offer more at the same price point. Like [58:30] those type of philosophies of the end [58:32] result of what people get and the [58:35] substance of what they feel is very [58:37] different from like trying to change [58:40] human behavior in in the way that Steve [58:43] Jobs has done in the past of like you [58:46] know what his his creations are to [58:49] better people's lives but through the [58:51] change of human behavior from going from [58:53] one style of technology to another. This [58:56] is familiar product where if you're [58:58] buying clothes, you're buying clothes. [58:59] Like we're not inventing something new [59:02] there. But when you when you buy an item [59:06] like the shirt that I'm wearing for [59:07] example, [59:09] um, and you put it up, you know, dollar [59:11] for dollar against other product in the [59:13] market, I do believe, and this is touch [59:16] and feel. If you want to post two [59:18] pictures next to each other, you could [59:19] post a Unilo t-shirt next to a kit [59:21] t-shirt, not know the difference, and [59:23] argue about the price point. But this is [59:24] for the people that know and that Kif is [59:26] built for the people that know the [59:28] difference. Know the difference between [59:30] what? Good product versus great product. [59:32] And that's really the motto of the [59:34] brand. Say more about how you think [59:36] about pricing though. [59:37] >> I always feel that um people should get [59:41] more than what they pay for. So where we [59:44] price product within the marketplace [59:47] becomes really important to be not only [59:49] to be competitive because that's not [59:51] really the challenge for us. It's mostly [59:54] about and we don't look elsewhere at [59:58] price points even though I I study the [60:00] market um just to have the knowledge but [60:03] it's not I don't necessarily apply that [60:05] as to how we price our product. We look [60:08] at the at the at the at the previous [60:10] season or the year before to see how [60:12] product was priced and we try to better [60:14] the product sometimes at the same price [60:17] or by elevating price points a little [60:18] bit but getting a lot more for the [60:20] product. So it's not necessarily a [60:22] formula. It's more of like a touch and [60:24] feel of like being in the business for [60:26] 30 years and just know 31 years and now [60:28] knowing the difference between good and [60:30] great. [60:30] >> Have you read uh this book called the [60:32] luxury strategy? It's a red book with [60:34] white letters. [60:35] >> I haven't. Okay, I'm going to send it to [60:36] you because it goes into I think what [60:38] you're you're hitting on is like well [60:40] there's other people in in industry and [60:42] especially luxury industry where it's [60:44] like they know there's a human [60:45] psychology like uh pricing is like [60:47] shortcut for us like we're all busy and [60:49] it's like [60:50] >> if you actually increase the price [60:52] without reinvesting into the product it [60:54] makes the in some categories it makes it [60:56] more desirable and it actually increases [60:57] the line and the demand for it. You're [60:59] saying no no no I'm not trying to [61:00] maximize and do some kind of [61:02] psychological trick. [61:03] >> That's a bubble. That's a bubble. what [61:04] you just mentioned. [61:05] >> Well, it's it's very enduring in human [61:06] nature actually. But my my point being [61:09] is like [61:09] >> it's like but I don't want to just make [61:11] money for the sake of making more money. [61:12] If I'm going to charge more, I want them [61:14] to get more value. Is that am I [61:15] understanding what you're saying? [61:16] >> 100%. And I think the consistency of [61:18] that thought process that I have has [61:21] been why we've been able to grow at the [61:23] rate that we've grown. [61:25] >> Right. So like I I think that the [61:27] consumer has seen that year over year. [61:28] And a lot of the kids, like a lot of [61:31] these um kids that are I won't even call [61:34] them kids, these dads that are my age at [61:36] 44, a lot of them have come up with a [61:39] brand, you know, from when they were 30 [61:41] or 29. My number one following uh age [61:44] range is between 28 and 35. And then [61:47] number two is 35 to 44. I feel like the [61:51] growth that people have had for the last [61:53] 15 years of consistently seeing the [61:56] progress has they felt like they've been [61:58] part of the journey and we've we've gone [62:00] so far like with creating product that [62:04] just it's it's actually mind-blowing [62:07] when you look at the first collection [62:08] versus the collection today. We didn't [62:09] have any footwear doing [62:11] >> you can see this in this book right [62:13] >> this this book is different because [62:14] >> it's just a foot [62:15] >> the foot the footwear is collaborative [62:16] and I I had 15 years under my belt [62:19] before working on this product like the [62:22] first shoe was 15 years later in my [62:25] career where apparel [62:27] >> my first product was in 2012 so like [62:31] when you think about that that's like 14 [62:33] years ago and and looking at the [62:35] progress there there'll be a a much [62:37] bigger delta than in this book. Would [62:39] you make another book just on apparel? [62:41] >> You know, I thought about it for the 15 [62:42] year, but after, you know, we were [62:44] building the second floor of my office a [62:46] few years ago. So, we expanded. We have [62:49] 60,000 ft on the on um the third floor. [62:52] And then I took another 30,000 ft for [62:54] the design studio on the second floor. [62:57] Before we started building on the second [62:59] floor, I I I knew I had like six to [63:01] eight months to design the space. So, I [63:03] knew I was going to have an empty space. [63:04] We already took the space. So, my [63:06] archavist, his name is uh uh his name is [63:09] Jordan Bloom. I had him lay out all of [63:12] my footwear from day one in [63:14] chronological order. [63:15] >> Is this the picture I just saw on [63:16] Instagram? [63:17] >> Yeah. Yeah, it's that's dope, man. [63:18] >> So, so that um and it's actually it's in [63:21] here. So, the first um [63:25] the first time the first time I got to [63:28] see all of my work in one place was a [63:32] few years ago when I saw this. And I [63:34] actually did that because I've never [63:37] seen it before. So I was just curious to [63:39] see the progression myself, you know, [63:41] like I wanted to see how far we've come [63:43] in footwear. And it's impossible for you [63:45] to see 1,800 different shoes by flipping [63:49] through photos or organizing it in a way [63:51] where you're going to see the [63:52] progression. It has to be in person. [63:53] Other there's no other way to do it. So [63:55] when I saw it, two things happened. The [63:57] first thing was people need to see this. [64:01] And then I was like, people need to see [64:02] it physically like we need to do this. [64:04] So the first idea was we need an [64:06] exhibition for this product which we're [64:08] doing the end of this month. I showed [64:10] you the index and the index is all of my [64:12] product that released but more [64:14] importantly all of my unreleased product [64:16] and the unreleased product are samples [64:19] that led to the release pair. So there's [64:22] like 800 uh or so released pairs and [64:25] then there's another thousand or so [64:27] unreleased pairs. So, I wanted to have [64:30] them all in one space and basically have [64:33] a show. It's called Walk the Index. So, [64:36] we're going to have um a digital version [64:38] of the index uh uploaded onto people's [64:41] apps like onto the Kith app. And you [64:43] need the Kith app to walk in. So, then [64:44] you can look at it and really walk the [64:47] index of the book, which I felt was [64:48] really cool. And then people will [64:50] obviously be able to buy the book there. [64:52] And then for those four days um that the [64:55] show will be open for, we also have [64:57] panels with each of the four biggest [64:59] collaborators which are um Nike, Adidas, [65:02] New Balance, and AS6. And there's some [65:05] senior leadership that are coming down [65:06] for that. On top of the exhibition, [65:10] Ronny's will launch for the first time [65:12] in New York via truck. And the truck [65:16] that we built, it's a really special [65:18] truck. It's going to feature what I'm [65:19] calling the Ronnie's meal. So, there's [65:21] two sandwiches that really blew up. One [65:23] in London, uh, called the OG Burger and [65:26] then, uh, one in LA in West Hollywood [65:29] called the Wagu Pronto. And the Wagu [65:32] pronto is a Wagu pastrami sandwich. And [65:34] then the burger is this Wagu burger. [65:36] It's incredible. Uh, with our own uh, [65:39] with our own sauce and kind of like this [65:41] mix with sauteed onions and it's just [65:44] one of the best burgers I think you'll [65:46] ever have. It comes in this red box and [65:48] in the box comes one of the two [65:50] sandwiches that you can order and then [65:52] pronto fries and then one of the these [65:55] two like frozen drinks that we make in [65:57] LA and with it more importantly is a toy [66:00] is a toy box of a pair of shoes and I'm [66:03] bringing back uh for the first time um [66:07] in its original form cuz we brought it [66:09] back one time with a navy soul but [66:10] there's a shoe that really that that [66:13] really put me on the map when I opened [66:14] Kith called the Salmonto. It's a salmon [66:16] toe AS6 [66:18] and it's a Gelite 3 uh in this salmon. [66:22] Uh the whole toe is blocked with salmon [66:23] and there's like uh navy on the quarter [66:25] with white stripes. It's beautiful. So a [66:28] a miniature version of those shoes will [66:30] come in a small shoe box and then [66:32] that'll be basically the toy in the [66:33] Ronnie's meal. The truck will only serve [66:35] a Ronnie's meal that like that's the [66:37] only product it'll serve and it comes [66:38] with the options I mentioned. uh that [66:41] will launch um for the exhibition uh [66:44] where we're launching the exhibition, [66:45] which I can't name right now. And then [66:48] uh the truck then gets positioned in [66:50] front of the flagship store uh after the [66:52] exhibition full-time. So, and and I got [66:55] the city to approve me having outdoor [66:56] seating in front of my store in [66:57] Lafayette. So, then I'm going to have [66:59] like the Ronny's truck um station there. [67:02] We're going to launch also delivery for [67:03] the full menu out of a ghost kitchen uh [67:06] which will happen I think the end of [67:08] October. [67:09] Deal is how the best founders turn the [67:11] world into their talent pool. I've been [67:13] studying how history's greatest founders [67:15] operate for a decade and one thing they [67:17] all have in common is they understand [67:18] that recruiting and hiring the very best [67:20] talent is your most important priority. [67:22] A players recognize other A players [67:24] which is why top companies like Ramp, [67:26] Shopify, 11 Labs, Uber and Door Dash all [67:29] use deal. Many of the top founders I [67:31] know have personally invested in deal [67:33] after using their product. And what they [67:35] discovered is that deal is the best [67:36] company in the world at building [67:38] infrastructure for global hiring. Deal [67:39] will help your business hire, pay, and [67:41] manage any worker anywhere in the world. [67:43] So you can retain the best talent [67:45] anywhere and spend the rest of your time [67:47] focusing on what you do best, delivering [67:49] value to your customers. The founder of [67:51] 11 Labs has a great description of the [67:53] value deal can give your company. He [67:55] said, "We built 11 Labs to break down [67:58] language and communication barriers. [67:59] With deal enabling us to hire and [68:01] support exceptional talent anywhere, we [68:04] can accelerate our innovation and bring [68:06] more voices, stories, and ideas to every [68:09] corner of the world. Deal is trusted by [68:11] over 40,000 companies and growing fast. [68:14] Learn how they can help your business by [68:15] going to deal.com/enra. [68:18] That is deal.com/enra. [68:22] I love this idea of like keeping a [68:23] catalog of past work and looking back [68:25] through it. on my other podcast founders [68:27] where I read just biographies of fish [68:28] entrepreneurs. I I went down this like [68:30] fashion designer thing for a while and [68:31] so I did like Koko Chanel and like Ralph [68:34] Lauren and then Balenciaga and like I [68:36] think of Balenciaga now as kind of like [68:38] not my insult I was like this is like [68:41] you know not my thing but what's [68:43] interesting is I'm always interested [68:45] like who in the top of their profession [68:46] like who do they say is the best. [68:48] >> Okay. Like Warren Buffett has this idea [68:50] which like well if you want to invest in [68:51] a company and in an industry go around [68:53] asking all the leaders in the industry [68:55] and say hey you got one bullet you can [68:56] take out one guy who is it going to be [68:58] right and usually they'll all say the [68:59] same guy he's like that's the guy you [69:00] should invest in. So he has this. So it [69:02] Balenciaga was that where like Koko [69:03] Chanel, Christian Dior, they called him [69:05] like the the master of us all, I think [69:07] was one of the quotes. And I didn't So I [69:09] was I got to like obviously what I think [69:11] of Balenciaga now and what how they [69:13] thought about him back then is crazy. [69:14] But Balenciaga, if you haven't read [69:16] about him, uh I'll send you some good [69:18] Bible recommendations. He essentially [69:20] redid his stores almost like a it was [69:22] like a church. He had like a reverence, [69:24] a religious reverence of what he was [69:25] doing. But one of the most fascinating [69:26] things is he had notebooks of because he [69:29] would not only design but he would also [69:31] physically like sew everything together. [69:33] He was like one of the few coutur or [69:35] yeah master whatever they called and um [69:37] but I thought that idea of like okay [69:39] your career in his case I think it's he [69:41] started relatively late let's say spent [69:43] 20 years he can go back and be like what [69:45] was I doing 18 years ago. [69:47] >> Yeah. But as an artillier that he was [69:49] like he to to to me um and it's very [69:54] important like especially in footwear I [69:56] got to learn how to make a shoe from [69:58] scratch also. So going back and looking [70:01] at the progress [70:03] um that we made also the knowledge [70:06] working with certain brands and some [70:08] brands do things better than others. So, [70:10] the amount that you pick up along the [70:12] way working with this many brands, I [70:15] feel like in footwear, um, I've become [70:19] the most well-rounded like knowledgeable [70:21] person in footwear because I got to see [70:24] between athletic shoes and brown shoes [70:26] and boots, like I got to really learn [70:29] how these brands make product, go to the [70:32] factories, go to their offices, and like [70:35] really understand the dynamic of what [70:36] makes them so special. So this this book [70:40] um it stands for so much more than just [70:43] the product at face value. Uh it's to me [70:47] it's a timeline of of of [70:50] feelings that I had and knowledge that I [70:52] gained along the way. Okay. So, like [70:54] when I think back to a moment, there are [70:56] things that you'll remember based on [70:58] current, you know, based on certain [71:00] events or based on certain news and um [71:03] milestones in your life, based on [71:05] certain, you know, things that happened [71:07] in your family or whatever it is. I [71:09] remember my life through product. So, [71:12] like I think back to when I got married [71:16] and and I think about also the product [71:18] during that time like the product when [71:20] my my first baby was born. um when my [71:23] first store opened or all the stores [71:25] along the way I have product that [71:27] >> your life milestones are anchored to the [71:29] products you were creating which goes [71:30] back to again why the soulful we talked [71:32] before we started recording it's like [71:34] when I say like what I'm trying to [71:36] understand is like I can't understand [71:38] >> the way you push your work until I [71:40] understand the personality of the person [71:42] that developed the ideas right I seek to [71:44] understand who the [ __ ] is sitting [71:45] across from me like why how the hell I [71:48] ask you like you're 13 how the hell do [71:50] you get interested in shoes and so Then [71:52] it's like, oh, think about the culture [71:53] he's in. Think about where he's living. [71:55] Think about what he's listening to. [71:56] Think about what is around him. It's [71:57] like you can't understand Ronnie unless [71:59] you understand everything that happened [72:00] then. Yeah. Taking the like going back [72:02] to that like taking the taking two buses [72:06] to high school, the Q17 to the Q30 or [72:09] taking the train to work when I took the [72:10] F train from the last stop on 179th in [72:13] Hillside to Broadway Lafayette or West [72:16] 4th when I used to work at 8th Street. [72:17] what you see on the train because you [72:20] pass by certain neighborhoods, right? [72:22] Each stop or every other stop would be [72:25] like a different culture hopping on the [72:27] train [72:27] >> cuz cultures are spread out and they you [72:29] know they create communities and then [72:31] they they get on the train in packs and [72:34] like along the way from the la basically [72:37] the first stop on the FRA to the or the [72:39] last stop I should say going to the city [72:42] what I got to see became my world. That [72:45] was my influence. I got to see so many [72:47] different styles, people dressed in so [72:49] many different ways. And that's when the [72:51] sense of individual individuality was at [72:53] an all-time high. Before you were [72:55] influenced by, you know, your algorithm, [72:58] which [73:00] now like a lot of a lot of people want [73:03] the same things because they're it's [73:04] based off of what they see or, you know, [73:07] what brands have to um have to basically [73:11] pay for in terms of like mass [73:14] distributing content. We lived in such a [73:16] different era. I got to see people walk [73:19] in to a store, have no idea what they're [73:21] looking for, have no idea about the [73:23] brands, and I got to see what they [73:25] gravitated to first [73:27] based off of a visual of what they [73:29] thought looked different or looked, you [73:32] know, on par for what they wanted to [73:34] wear. So, [73:35] I got to understand why so many [73:38] different people liked so many different [73:39] products for so many different reasons. [73:41] And that became a big part of who I am [73:44] because it became a part of why I like [73:46] product, you know, that was my influence [73:48] basically is seeing so many different [73:51] styles and then forming my own edit. [73:53] It's like that that's that's a lost art. [73:56] >> Wait, wait, say more about that. I got [73:57] to see so many different styles. So, [73:58] you're taking in all this information, [74:00] you're essentially synthesizing it, [74:02] putting in your head, and you're like, [74:03] "Okay, what's my spin or take on this?" [74:05] >> Like, what's my opinion on it? Like back [74:08] then when you go when you went shopping [74:10] back then you you were forced to have an [74:12] opinion cuz you wouldn't have seen [74:14] everything. Like if you were to see if [74:16] you would see a music video, you'd see [74:17] one or two different shoes, right? Or [74:19] boots. If you were to open up a [74:21] magazine, you'd see 10 different boots. [74:24] But then you walk into a store, you see [74:25] 500 different boots. So it's like you're [74:28] walking in and you're you you were [74:30] forced to have an opinion. Today, people [74:32] will walk into a store and know about [74:34] all the product before they walk in. So [74:36] they've already seen someone wearing it, [74:39] a photo of it, a lookbook of it, a [74:41] campaign of it. [74:42] >> They're like outsourcing their taste to [74:43] somebody else. [74:44] >> Yeah. And and not to say that people [74:45] weren't influenced by media back then. [74:47] They were, but it was a much smaller [74:49] aperture, you know, like of what people [74:51] were seeing and then you'd come in and [74:53] back then you were just forced to have [74:55] your own opinion. [74:56] >> I feel like I get the vibe like you want [74:58] to live in more of like an analog wall, [74:59] man. [ __ ] hell. I do for real. Like [75:02] if and I tell I tell my wife this every [75:04] day like [75:06] I just I wish that I could throw my [75:08] phone away. I wish that I could and and [75:10] you know what's funny is that I really [75:12] feel just like um fashion is very [75:15] cyclical. I feel like um people's [75:18] thought processes are also like cyclical [75:22] and the way people think about [75:24] how their lives are influenced. I feel [75:26] like that's also cyclical. Meaning, if [75:28] you had had a taste of what we had pre- [75:32] internet, like I just find myself [75:35] [ __ ] begging for analog, for for just [75:39] the physical. I want to be influenced [75:41] outside of digital. I want to travel and [75:44] shut my [ __ ] off and just not have a [75:47] connection to the internet. You know, [75:49] something we had when we were kids is [75:50] like you were just forced to be bored [75:52] and alone with your own thoughts. [75:53] >> And my my daughter is like, I'm bored. [75:55] I'm like, that's great. [75:57] That's amazing that you have to that's [75:59] when you use your imagination when [76:00] you're bored. [76:01] >> But that's also where difference comes [76:02] in. We I just I just flew to Milan [76:04] because um I I meet a lot of founders [76:06] like entrepreneurs like I meet a ton of [76:09] them and [76:10] >> I met this guy named Luca Ferrari who [76:12] does this company called Bending Spoons [76:14] >> and I remember having lunch with him [76:15] back in like February and literally the [76:17] lunch was so like jarring cuz he was [76:19] describing how he built his company and [76:20] ideas I'd never even heard of anywhere [76:23] else especially for he's he's our age [76:25] too. [76:25] >> Yeah. And I was like, "Dude, stop. You [76:27] got to run that back." I pulled out and [76:28] I we were on WhatsApp together and I [76:30] just like light light him up on like all [76:32] the stuff he's saying. And I was like, [76:33] he's like, "What are you doing?" I was [76:34] like, "I'm taking notes on your very [76:36] unique ideas for when you do the show." [76:38] He didn't even agree to do the show. I [76:39] just assumed I was like, "Dude, you got [76:40] weird [ __ ] in your head. I need to get [76:42] it out." But one of the things he said [76:43] was like, you know, he's building a tech [76:45] company, but he grew up in a little [76:46] village of 900 people. His parents were [76:48] hairdressers. And he's just like, "I [76:50] started in Copenhagen, then I moved to [76:51] Milan." And he's like, I couldn't copy [76:54] the startup tech startup mantras because [76:56] I didn't even know they existed. So I [76:58] was forced to he was essentially like he [77:00] was in a digital world, but he was like [77:02] how we were in kids. He was just like I [77:04] only had my own thoughts and my own [77:05] thinking. And because I was involved [77:07] with my own thoughts and my own [77:08] thinking, not influenced by everything [77:09] else cuz he doesn't pay attention. [77:11] >> This is where you get the creativity. [77:13] This is where you get the centric stuff. [77:14] This is where you get actual [77:15] differentiation. [77:16] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Yep. Yep. And that [77:18] that's very similar in the sense that [77:20] like Queens played such a big part in my [77:23] life because Queens you get to see so [77:26] much. It's just New York City is [77:30] honestly the most inspiring place in the [77:31] world because there's so there's so much [77:34] thrown at you every day. Even if you [77:36] even I'm talking about outside of [77:38] digital like just walking around you you [77:40] you get to see so much. So, in the sense [77:43] of what I want to accomplish, it's [77:46] beyond the typical [77:50] cookie cutter retail brand, you know, [77:54] concepts that have have helped shape [77:56] these brands that we all know. I want to [77:59] sit way outside of that and I want um I [78:02] want the brand to be doing so much more [78:04] than that. So if you knew exactly what [78:07] it is that I that I do within the [78:10] context of the culture which within I'm [78:13] which is what I'm in today like the [78:15] product culture or the retail culture [78:18] understanding how how wide we've [78:21] expanded beyond the typical retail space [78:25] is pretty extraordinary but where we go [78:28] from here and how it could expand from [78:29] there is even like is even greater than [78:32] that. So, I'm trying to not have any [78:35] boundaries in the way that I think about [78:36] the business, if that makes sense. [78:38] >> This is actually a really important [78:39] point. And I have certain people in my [78:41] life that I go to that kind of like this [78:43] like living board of directors. And what [78:45] a lot of the case is is like you're [78:47] obviously ambitious and driven. Every [78:48] single person that's going to be on the [78:49] show is ambitious and driven. I feel the [78:51] same way. But like there's certain [78:53] people in my life that like you'll talk [78:55] to about what's going on. Like, oh, you [78:57] have like this weird ceiling that like [78:58] actually doesn't exist. It's like why [79:00] don't we just rip that [ __ ] off [79:01] because it doesn't exist. Do you have [79:03] any like that's corporate structure [79:05] though? But like no but but like in your [79:06] own personal life when you're thinking [79:07] about directing your company and you're [79:09] saying, "Hey man, I got I got I got big [79:11] [ __ ] dreams. I got stuff that's not I [79:13] don't think of myself as like I might be [79:15] part of this culture, but like I can [79:16] expand out of it. I can do whatever I [79:18] want. I'm not looking left and right. [79:19] I'm focused on what I want to do." Do [79:20] you have anybody in your life that's [79:21] just like can like peel the top off your [79:23] head and be like, "Hey man, you have no [79:24] no ceilings. You have no limits." [79:25] >> My partner Sam has allowed me to do [79:28] that. Yeah. my business partner and he's [79:31] always been someone who I could speak to [79:33] who has given me the energy to go and [79:35] chase whatever it is I have in my mind. [79:37] I listened to an episode um one of your [79:40] episodes this morning. I'm not even sure [79:42] what it was [79:44] um where you just rambled about Steve [79:46] Jobs. It's incredible. Right. But but [79:48] >> that's how you know he listens to the [79:49] show. [79:50] >> The episode was about uh simplicity. [79:52] >> Oh yeah. How Steve Jobs kept things [79:53] simple. Correct. That's for my other [79:55] podcast founder. I think it's episode [79:56] 349 or 350. Okay. Okay, somebody look it [79:58] up. See if I'm right. [80:00] >> That would be pretty remarkable [80:01] actually. But but when when it's similar [80:03] to when Steve Jobs got into music, [80:05] >> it's like what the [ __ ] is Apple doing [80:07] getting into music, right? [80:08] >> And I'm sure it raised a lot of [80:10] eyebrows, but for him to for him to take [80:14] on that initiative and he he had [80:16] shareholders and had a lot more pressure [80:18] than I did from the financial [80:19] standpoint. [80:20] >> 349. [80:21] >> Wow. [80:23] >> What are you up to now on Founders? [80:25] >> 432. [80:27] Where's Ian? He p he he published it for [80:28] me yesterday. 435 something like that. [80:30] Yeah. I'm going to do I end everyone I'm [80:32] like 435 down,000 go and thousand never [80:35] ends cuz people like oh you're going to [80:36] do 1,435. It's like no that's like I'm [80:38] going to do this so I'm dying. [80:40] >> It's it's actually incredible, man. It's [80:41] it's really incredible cuz I just like I [80:43] go through my workout and you're just [80:45] [ __ ] wow, [80:46] >> dude. I'm walking to dinner last night. [80:48] The crazy thing is um you know Michael [80:50] uh like just every time I come to New [80:53] York I text him was like cuz I just I I [80:55] care a lot about him. He first like I [80:56] looked up to him before I even knew who [80:57] he was. I was making episodes on him and [80:59] we become friends and he's just a [81:00] [ __ ] wild man. Even in his I think [81:02] he's 82, he's still [ __ ] crazy. And [81:03] dinners were absolutely insane. I won't [81:05] even I'll tell you off camera what [81:06] happened last night. I'm walking to [81:08] dinner and some dude literally test me [81:09] on the shoulder and he's listening to [81:11] Larry Gagzian 325. See if I'm right [81:13] about that for for me. [81:14] >> And he's like whiskuit over here. [81:15] >> Yeah. And he's like, "Dude, he goes I [81:17] I'm in [ __ ] sales." And he goes, "I [81:19] listen to this to hype me up over and [81:21] over again." because essentially Larry [81:22] goes and built a billion dollar empire [81:24] with a phone and like he's saleserson. [81:26] >> 325 [81:27] >> boom 325. [81:28] >> Look at that. [81:29] >> Um and and so that but I do the same [81:31] thing like I'll go back and listen to [81:32] him because it like it reinforces the [81:33] lessons of hypes me up. But anyways, [81:35] >> what does it what does that do for you? [81:36] It hypes you up. [81:37] >> Like I I really think so the reason I [81:39] brought up Balenciaga earlier, the [81:41] reason I think like me and you would get [81:42] along is like I'm doing it for like I [81:45] have soul in the game. Like I thought [81:46] first of all I think podcasting is a [81:47] miracle. I think what we talked about [81:49] before we started recording to find that [81:50] any subject in the world you want to [81:51] listen to you will find somebody has [81:53] gone deeper than any college course in [81:55] existence [81:56] >> incredible [81:56] >> and anything you want to learn you can [81:58] learn on demand for free while your eyes [82:00] are busy [82:00] >> in this format too which is incredible [82:02] >> I thought it was remarkable when I [82:03] discovered in 2010 I still think it's a [82:05] [ __ ] miracle to this day and so what [82:07] I would say is it's like I I make the [82:09] podcast that I want to listen to and [82:11] then I think there's like a so there's a [82:14] bad part to this and I'm going to ramble [82:15] a little bit but like you know like my [82:17] mom was like fundamentals Christian. So [82:19] I was like forced to go to church every [82:20] Sunday, right? It was like in the south [82:23] and unfortunately like you know this [82:24] took a bad turn. She wound up having [82:26] breast cancer and I like she would try [82:29] to initially pray the cancer away. Like [82:31] that's how [ __ ] extreme it was. And [82:32] it took me like 2 years to convince her [82:34] to go to an oncologist. I don't want to [82:36] start [ __ ] crying now, but like to [82:37] the point where I'd had to drive, she [82:39] was so stubborn in her religious views. [82:40] I'd have to drive from Miami where I was [82:42] living to Orlando where she was living [82:45] to every time she had a college [82:46] appointment. If I didn't show up and I [82:48] didn't drive her, she wouldn't go. And [82:50] she wind up dying a [ __ ] horrific [82:51] death. So like I obviously don't want to [82:53] get into that now. [82:54] >> But what I would say is like [82:56] >> the benefit of growing up in church and [82:58] I didn't realize this until you see this [83:00] on Founders like I kind of have like the [83:01] southern like preacher thing because I'm [83:04] very [ __ ] I consider myself an [83:06] evangelist. Not a I'm not a journalist. [83:07] I'm an evangelist for entrepreneurship. [83:09] And so like the way I think about [83:11] everything that we're doing is it's like [83:13] man the reason that religions or cult [83:16] followings or brands thrive is because [83:19] the repetition over time over and over [83:22] and over again. So for me it's like [83:24] listen episode 349. I read the book I [83:26] recorded it. I edited it. I listened to [83:28] it before it came out and I published it [83:29] and I bet you I go back there and I [83:31] still forget some of the [ __ ] So I will [83:33] go back and I think it's people [83:34] overestimate. We forget that we forget. [83:36] We forget that we forget. And I think [83:38] going back to great designs in the book, [83:40] great books that you freaking read, [83:42] great podcast, great movies. I've seen [83:45] Godfather 2, I don't know, 15 times. I [83:47] still learn stuff. I've gone through [83:49] every single episode of Game of Thrones, [83:51] I don't know, 10 times. I still take [83:52] notes on it. And so that that's what it [83:53] does for you. It just reinforces these [83:55] lessons and like gives me energy. And [83:57] then inevitably, you're going to run [83:58] into some today. Maybe not today, maybe [84:01] not tomorrow, but definitely next month, [84:02] two months, you're going to run into [84:03] some [ __ ] problem in your book, in [84:05] your business. and you're gonna go be [84:06] like, man, I need like another set of [84:08] eyes on this. Or like, oh, then you, oh, [84:10] this is what Steve Jobs, this is how he [84:11] kept it simple, or this is what he did. [84:13] So, [84:13] >> and I I'll definitely apply some of that [84:15] stuff. But let me tell you something, [84:16] folks, for everyone who's listening [84:18] right now. If you can create content [84:22] that you can then go back to to hype [84:25] yourself up, you [ __ ] made it in [84:27] life. So, congratulations to you for [84:29] that. [84:29] >> So, we have another podcaster because [84:31] I'm also obsessed with other podcasters. [84:32] was Jackson Dolls off camera and uh [84:35] there's actually a funny Can you pull up [84:36] the tweet between me, you and Sam Hinky [84:38] about this and um so I I I spent a lot [84:42] of time with other podcasters. I think [84:43] Jackson's one of the most talented [84:44] people. We talk a lot about like the [84:46] business and like he you know other [84:47] podcasters will come in and like shadow [84:49] what we're doing because we're trying to [84:50] you know operate at the very highest [84:51] levels here. But there's a the tweet [84:53] exchange between Jackson and my friend [84:55] Sam Hanky. Sam is talking about me [84:57] because I was talking about like when I [84:59] listen to I listen to every episode [85:00] before it goes out. Yeah. [85:01] >> And sometimes I find myself like [85:03] laughing at stuff that happens. So Sam [85:05] Hinky responds to this tweet where I'm [85:06] talking about laughing. He goes, "Good [85:07] luck competing with the maniac that [85:09] cracks himself up while recording his [85:10] solo podcast, which he remembers because [85:12] he loves listening to his solo podcast." [85:14] >> Then Jackson, who's sitting off off [85:16] camera here, he goes, "This is this is [85:18] July 22nd, 2025." He goes, "He once told [85:21] me he just loves podcasts so much, but [85:23] there's simply not many great ones. So [85:24] the rational conclusion is that he [85:26] usually finds himself listening to his [85:27] own episodes again. [85:30] >> Yo, if you're listening to yourself as [85:31] first option, that's crazy. But you know [85:34] what? [85:35] >> What are you doing for yourself? That's [85:36] incredible. [85:37] >> It's the same thing. [85:38] >> I think you might be the only one. But [85:40] but I love that. [85:41] >> Let's go back to before I interrupted [85:42] and started rambling to you was talking [85:44] about Steve Jobs of music. [85:46] >> Um [85:46] >> I I want to I want to touch on Ivy [85:48] because [85:48] >> Okay, go for it. [85:49] >> Um you asked me about Ivy and I want to [85:50] I want to just go back to that for a [85:52] second. So, three or four years ago, I [85:55] spent um uh I spent the season in Miami [85:58] and uh I got introduced to Wayne Voch. [86:02] Wayne uh is the founder of Reserve, [86:05] which is um he builds like paddle [86:07] courts, also built like a membership [86:09] club in um in uh Seplane in Miami. And I [86:13] used it as my office and we were playing [86:15] paddle all day. I was taking calls all [86:16] day and I I just became obsessed with [86:18] the sport. But what I realized with [86:20] people that were playing, they didn't [86:22] know how to dress for the sport. [86:25] And as I became like obsessed with the [86:27] sport, I was like watching people come [86:28] and play in like vintage TE's and [86:30] basketball shorts. And it was it was [86:31] throwing me off. Honestly, I thought to [86:34] myself like, well, how can I start to [86:35] like help shaping how this sport can [86:38] potentially look and feel? Because it [86:40] was brand new. The first courts I think [86:42] in America were in Miami built by, you [86:45] know, by Wayne. But I thought for sure [86:48] the sport was going to grow. And as this [86:50] a as the season went on, I came back [86:52] home. And then for the next six months, [86:54] all I heard about was paddle. People [86:56] wanted to play paddle and didn't have a [86:57] court to play on. I creatively direct a [87:00] Wilson tennis, but that's been behind [87:02] the scenes for quite a while. And we [87:04] started a new line called uh Sport [87:06] Professionals, which is like an elevated [87:08] tier that sits within Wilson. And I help [87:11] them through that through design. And [87:14] coming back, I was like, let me start to [87:18] apply some of these ideas that I have [87:20] around um around tennis, but in a very [87:24] different way because it's a way [87:25] sweatier sport. It's it's a lot more [87:27] active in in the way fabrics need to [87:30] feel and movements, you know, like [87:32] you're spinning a lot, you're going, you [87:34] know, um a lot of vertical movement, a [87:36] lot of side to side movement. It's very [87:37] different from tennis in the way that [87:39] you move in the sport. So the idea of [87:41] shaping the identity of a new sport that [87:44] would spread in the states and become a [87:46] major sport in the spa in in the space [87:49] that really excited me to want to take [87:51] on the sport and help shape the identity [87:54] of what it would become. So that then [87:56] turned to the idea of the space of what [87:59] Ivy looks and feels like, which if you [88:02] come to this space, [88:04] you'll love it. probably the space I'm [88:07] most um passionate about, but also I'm [88:10] mostly proud of. And what we've been [88:12] able to build there, the community, as I [88:13] start to travel to different cities and [88:16] play paddle, a lot of these players are [88:18] wearing Kit Ivy product because Kid Ivy [88:20] is a membership club, but the product is [88:22] sold on on on the website on the on the [88:24] kids site. So, you could still [88:26] participate in the brand if you're [88:28] playing paddle elsewhere and you're not [88:30] a member of the club for for example. So [88:33] as I started to travel the world, I'm [88:35] like seeing people wearing the product [88:37] and it became I think the highest form [88:40] of what the sport can look like and feel [88:42] like. So just having an idea be sparked [88:46] by how I could better the sport or [88:48] better the identity of the sport created [88:50] this like idea around the holistic 360 [88:53] view of what Ivy is. And it wasn't just [88:56] the shaping the identity of the apparel [88:58] they were wearing. It's also about the [89:00] experience surrounding paddle. Like what [89:02] should paddle feel like? Cuz paddle [89:05] could very easily like be a sport that [89:08] Rolex gets into or be one of the other [89:11] sports that that then get thrown into [89:13] like ping pong and and uh and pickle. So [89:16] like in which direction it will this [89:18] sport go and I wanted to be a part of [89:22] the progress that the sport has to then [89:24] elevate it to where it is today which I [89:26] think I played a part of. I think that's [89:27] a perfect illustration of like your idea [89:30] of world building. Yeah. Like telling [89:32] that entire story. It's also a perfect [89:33] place to close our first conversation. [89:35] What I want to do is run this back in a [89:37] few months. I think we film at Ivy and [89:40] we focus on I think you have a very [89:42] unique almost like filmmaker view on [89:45] world building. But dude, thanks for [89:46] taking the time. This is awesome. [89:47] >> Appreciate it. This is great. [89:49] >> I hope you enjoyed this episode. Please [89:50] remember to subscribe wherever you're [89:52] listening and leave a review. And make [89:54] sure you listen to my other podcast, [89:55] Founders. For almost a decade, I've [89:57] obsessively read over 400 biographies of [90:00] history's greatest entrepreneurs, [90:01] searching for ideas that you can use in [90:03] your work. Most of the guests you hear [90:05] on this show first found me through [90:07] Founders.