OpenAI & Meta Distinguished Eng (IC9): The Psychology Behind Tech Career Peaks | Philip Su

对话 OpenAI 与 Meta 杰出工程师（IC9）Philip Su：科技职业巅峰背后的心理学 在本次对话中，Philip Su 反思了在快速晋升为 Meta 和 OpenAI 杰出工程师（IC9）后，遭遇“职业渐近线”的心理现实。他详细讲述了在跨过主任工程师（IC6）后，工作的本质如何从代码执行根本转变为令人心力交瘁的组织政治，以及承受他所谓“索伦之眼”（Eye of Sauron）般的持续审视。Su 解释了他最终主动申请降级回 IC7 的原因、在达成职业与财务里程碑后因缺乏对“往后日子”的规划而产生的空虚感，以及在有限人生中平衡个人野心所带来的存在主义冲突。回顾过往，他也坦率地表达了悔意，反思了自己曾以牺牲陪伴家人为代价来为极度随叫随到的工作状态找借口的阶段。 超过主任工程师（IC6）之后，职业晋升不再奖励纯粹的编码速度和执行广度，而是转向高风险的组织引领、政治化解与繁重的会议负担。 (10:02) Philip Su 曾主动申请从 IC9 降级回 IC7，原因在于“索伦之眼”带来的心理消耗——即高管层持续不断的严苛审视，考核顶薪待遇是否带来了相匹配的业务价值。 (14:49) 在三十多岁就“速通”技术职级天花板可能会引发深刻的巅峰后危机，让高成就者在接下来的 25 年或更长职业生涯中陷入缺乏正式里程碑认可的境地。 (33:03) 若没有为“往后日子”做好规划，过早实现财务自由或登上职业巅峰往往会诱发抑郁，这与那些只狭隘专注于单一技能而未能建立外部身份认同的退役顶尖运动员如出一辙。 (39:13)

Former OpenAI and Meta Distinguished Engineer Philip Su argues that reaching the highest rungs of the technical ladder fundamentally changes the nature of engineering work while introducing diminishing psychological returns and intense executive scrutiny. Reflecting on his career peak, Su cautions that rapid advancement often brings an existential void unless engineers consciously evaluate the trade-offs between professional velocity and personal life. The Structural Limits of Doing More Better (10:02) Su explains that through Staff Engineer (IC6), career advancement largely mirrors raw execution—delivering similar coding work at larger amplitude. Beyond that threshold, however, 'doing more better' ceases to function unless an engineer possesses extraordinary programming speed. Direct coding and architecture decrease, replaced by strategic product direction, cross-organizational negotiation, and packed meeting calendars. In large enterprises, this shift demands deep specialization rather than the broad generalist toolkit that thrives in early-stage startups. As organizations expand, available high-level roles also contract. Su notes that at Microsoft, leadership enforced strict caps on Partner positions, while at Facebook, growing to tens of thousands of employees meant generalists were replaced by specialized legal, communications, and domain infrastructure teams. Higher individual contributor tiers additionally mandate ongoing conflict mediation, team steering, and constructive feedback—responsibilities Su found personally draining compared to direct software delivery. Relentless Scrutiny and Demotion from IC9 (14:49) Operating as an IC9 (Distinguished Engineer) exposed Su to what he describes as the 'Eye of Sauron'—an unrelenting executive audit evaluating whether an individual's output justifies high compensation. Unlike lower levels, where he was confident he could eventually master peer skill sets, Su observed hard limits in his own technical range compared to peer specialists at IC7 and above. He also found that while IC6 engineers are fungible across almost any team, IC8 and IC9 positions require narrow, bespoke organizational fits. Faced with ongoing exhaustion and the fear of falling short during performance cycles, Su voluntarily requested a demotion from IC9 to IC7. He likens the emotional cost to an aging craftsman parting with tools or the literary figure Beowulf being summoned at age 70 to fight a final dragon. Although demotion carried the bittersweet sting of watching former junior colleagues advance past him, Su concluded that sustaining the pace required at the technical summit was unrealistic. The Pacing Dilemma and Post-Summit Void (33:03) Throughout his twenties, Su treated promotions as quantifiable report cards to compensate for the corporate world's lack of structured academic feedback. However, speedrunning to IC9 by his late thirties left him facing the prospect of decades without further milestone recognition. Peterman and Su examine whether titrating promotions across a 42-year career would yield greater happiness, though Su observes that spacing six promotions across four decades would require excruciating waits of 7 to 12 years between titles, echoing the diminishing thrill of buying a sports car late in life. This dynamic mirrors the psychological crisis seen in early retirement and Financial Independence, Retire Early (FIRE) communities, where achievers chase an arbitrary financial number only to experience depression once the finish line is crossed. Citing Oliver Burkeman’s book Four Thousand Weeks, Su emphasizes the necessity of planning for 'the day after' a peak goal is reached. Without cultivating intrinsic purpose, shared social activities with peers in similar life phases, or clear personal values, reaching a terminal objective leaves high performers adrift. The Arithmetic of Overtime and Availability (40:14) Reflecting on periods of extreme work, including an intense six-week sprint shipping Facebook Video Calling where he lost ten pounds, Su rejects the platitude that a strict 40-hour work week will naturally outpace someone logging sustained overtime. While acknowledging that chronic fatigue degrades code quality through regressions, he argues that when two engineers share equal skill, an organization cannot plausibly reward someone working 40% fewer hours at the same rate over multiple years without creating systemic unfairness. Nonetheless, Su identifies excessive availability to employers as his primary career regret. He distinguishes between the video calling launch—which his family shared as a collaborative adventure—and later career stretches where he rationalized chronic emotional absence under the pretext of providing for his family. Having attained financial autonomy, Su concludes he would now readily sacrifice promotion velocity to preserve daily family presence. Su acknowledges that warnings against overwork rarely resonate with young, ambitious professionals until they confront the career asymptote directly. Ultimately, he frames career advancement not as an endless climb, but as a calculated transaction where early intensity should buy long-term autonomy rather than perpetual corporate climbing.

[1:36] Philip Su: there's got to be an end to this, right? [3:13] Philip Su: It wasn't like once every two months you got a test that told you you were doing well. [3:13] Philip Su: What? There's a level here? Like, that's kind of amazing. Thank you. [5:39] Philip Su's mentor: Phil, can we just take at least one one-on-one to celebrate the fact that you've actually reached this tremendous level at Microsoft? [14:49] Will Smith (quoted by Philip Su): getting famous is amazing, being famous is a mixed bag, and then getting not famous is horrible. [14:49] Philip Su: It's like when Beowulf at age 70 is asked to like slay the dragon one last time... he gets out of his old house and he slays the dragon one last time. Part of me wishes that I had that in me—that like when I'm 70 I can be called upon one last time to do this thing... but I know that maybe that's not it for me. [19:43] Philip Su: Honestly, if you put me on that guy's team, I could not do that work... I know I can't. [22:22] Philip Su: Facebook was so tiny back then. Like you could see the users having errors right away. I was patching errors every day. Like it felt like missional, right? It felt like this was the first time video calling was going to be easy for people without installing any software. [24:13] Philip Su: If I dig in and work punishing hours right now, I am buying the freedom at age 50 to spend two years writing whatever code I want. [29:35] Philip Su: To me, it feels like this rat could have been so much more. [36:08] Philip Su: Mr. Darcy had no job, but you have no job either. So you and Mr. Darcy get together three times a week to, you know, whatever, play bocce ball. [39:13] Philip Su: What do you do next? [41:45] Philip Su: What sort of crazy company do you work for where like these two people get compensated the identical amount over multiple years, but one guy's working 40% more?

[0:00] You know what? Like maybe this [0:02] ultimately is my final level. [0:05] >> This is Philip Sue. He grew quickly to a [0:07] distinguished [music] engineer or IC9 at [0:09] Facebook and then OpenAI. And I [0:12] interviewed him about the psychology of [0:14] peing in your career. When I got to [0:16] seven, you know, I felt like, hm, this [0:18] is pretty much nearing the boundary of [0:21] my capability. It's like when Beaolf at [0:23] age 70 is asked to like slay the dragon [0:25] one last time. Part of me wishes that I [0:28] had that in me. Do you think that you'd [0:30] be happier if you got promoted slower? I [0:33] feel like titrating it out would have [0:35] been better for me. Here's the full [0:37] episode. [0:42] Last time we talked, I focused almost [0:45] entirely on you got to distinguish [0:47] engineering level. You grew very [0:49] quickly. How'd you do it? And this time [0:53] I wanted to focus more on what happens [0:56] when you hit your terminal level or what [0:59] I mean is there's this idea of a career [1:02] asmtote which is no no one can grow [1:05] forever and at some point you're going [1:07] to get to a level where you can't go any [1:09] further and you may have 20 30 years [1:13] left in the career. So what I wanted to [1:17] ask you is, you know, when you got [1:19] promoted to IC9 or distinguished [1:21] engineer, which is crazy high, that's [1:23] like four levels higher than a senior [1:25] engineer. [1:27] What was your immediate thought? Were [1:29] you thinking, I want to go to ICT10? [1:32] Does that exist? Or were you thinking [1:34] something entirely different? [1:36] >> Yeah, I think when I started, I honestly [1:39] didn't think about it. When I was [1:41] earlier in career, I really just assumed [1:43] that oh yeah, you go for a promotion and [1:46] once every few years you get promoted [1:48] and I never once thought there's got to [1:50] be an end to this, right? [laughter] [1:51] Like everybody there's got to be an end, [1:53] right? And I think many people might not [1:55] think that through, right? And so for me [1:57] it took many years before I figured out, [1:59] you know, even at seven, for instance, I [2:02] felt like, oh, hey, things have got to [2:03] slow down because, you know, it it gets [2:06] harder and harder. the amount of scope [2:08] that you need um becomes tougher. The [2:10] number of roles that offer the [2:12] opportunity actually gets smaller [2:13] because the organization needs to also [2:16] need that scope of work, right? So for [2:18] instance at Microsoft oftentimes when [2:20] they reorganize, they figured out, hey, [2:22] your organization should at most have [2:24] four partners and that's just a [2:26] budgetary sort of thing. That's a [2:28] business opportunity thing. So you need [2:30] the opportunity as well. And so when I [2:33] was growing to nine, I think I just [2:36] didn't think of going any further as [2:38] realistic. I was at Facebook when they [2:41] first created level 9, right? Um, and I [2:45] remember that three level eights were [2:47] promoted into nine. And at that point, [2:49] those three level eights were all [2:52] universally loved and known throughout [2:53] the company as obviously super senior [2:56] technical people. And to me, [snorts] [2:58] that felt unreachable if I'm honest. [3:00] when I think about those folks and the [3:02] type of work they were doing that really [3:04] felt out of reach for me. So I think [3:06] definitely by the time I got to eight or [3:08] nine it really felt like you know the [3:10] end is near. Well a lot of people might [3:14] feel that sooner in their career too. [3:17] What kept you pushing past the staff [3:20] level or the senior staff level, you [3:22] know, six, seven, eight, nine? [3:24] >> When I got all the way through to seven, [3:27] I think, which was at my 12 years at [3:30] Microsoft, right? I was really [3:33] personally ambitious for level growth. [3:36] And I think the reason was in schools, I [3:38] love tests. I love grades because I was [3:39] good at grades and tests. When I started [3:42] professional work, there was nothing [3:43] quantifiable. like it wasn't like once [3:45] every two months you got a test that [3:46] told you you you were doing well. So for [3:49] me, promotions became one of the very [3:50] few quantifiable things, right? It's [3:53] sort of like, well, how much money do I [3:55] make? And like there are so few things [3:57] that are actually numbers, right? So to [3:59] me, a level was almost like an [4:01] achievement number. And so throughout my [4:03] 20s and my early 30s, I was really [4:05] ambitious to get through um all the way [4:08] to level seven. But I think starting [4:11] there, I just realized, you know, the [4:13] nature of the work changes with every [4:15] additional level that you go into. I [4:17] wasn't sure that I would like the nature [4:19] of work first of all and then the other [4:21] is I felt things slowing down rightfully [4:23] because everybody has a talent limit [4:26] right so for me as I approached that I [4:28] just began to feel like you know I was [4:31] no longer ambitious for the further [4:33] growth so I would say my growth into [4:35] eight and nine neither of those were [4:37] things that I was seeking myself I was [4:39] by that point doing the work I found [4:42] interesting and trying to do a better [4:44] job of it as opposed to I would [4:46] characterize my time, especially in my [4:48] 20s, as mostly focused on how do I grow [4:50] to the next level? Tell me what I need [4:52] to do, like that sort of thing. By the [4:54] time I went from seven to eight, getting [4:56] to eight was honestly a surprise for me [4:59] at Facebook because getting to eight was [5:01] the first time I learned that there were [5:02] levels at Facebook. When I joined [5:05] Facebook, it was 500 engineers, right? [5:07] Um, everybody was focused on the work [5:10] itself and did not worry about careers [5:12] and stuff, which I think is normal for [5:14] small companies when you're on a big [5:16] mission. You're just trying to get the [5:17] mission done. So, I didn't even learn I [5:20] had a level until my boss, who was Bos, [5:23] right? Uh, said, "Hey, congratulations. [5:25] You've been promoted to level eight." [5:27] And I was like, "What? There's a level [5:29] here?" Like, that's kind of amazing. [5:30] Thank you. Right. So I think I stopped [5:33] focusing on the level itself and my [5:35] promotions became more a consequence of [5:37] the work that was being done. [5:39] >> Early in your career, it sounds like you [5:41] you were constantly maybe harping your [5:44] manager and you say, "How can I get [5:45] promoted? What's the next thing?" And [5:47] later you transitioned into [5:50] uh doing meaningful work and getting [5:53] promoted as a byproduct. What was it [5:55] that changed in your mind where you went [5:58] from that mentality to [6:01] promos don't matter anymore? [6:02] >> Yeah, I think there were two things that [6:04] come to mind. One was that the thrill of [6:09] the promotion itself was no longer the [6:11] same as when I was younger. So I think [6:13] when I was younger because I sought [6:15] after those grades, those measurable [6:16] metrics, I very much felt great every [6:19] time I got promoted. This was like [6:20] wonderful, right? I think as I got [6:22] promoted, even into level seven, I [6:25] started to honestly become a little bit [6:27] not ambivalent about it, but I guess it [6:30] wasn't all roses to me anymore, the idea [6:32] of getting promoted because I realized [6:34] that each promotion also came with much [6:36] higher expectations. Expectations that I [6:39] was no longer positive that I was going [6:41] to deliver well. You know what I mean? [6:43] When I went from a four to a five, you [6:45] know, I was confident that I could do [6:46] this work like it'll be great, right? [6:49] when I got to seven, you know, I felt [6:51] like this is pretty much nearing the [6:54] boundary of my capability and so I felt [6:57] a lot more comfortable um saying like [7:00] hey if they keep me here perpetually it [7:02] is still work I enjoy a lot. I think the [7:05] second thing that really changed for me [7:07] um is realizing also that asmmptote [7:10] right realizing that you know what like [7:13] maybe this ultimately is my final level. [7:16] Um, I was so humbled many years ago when [7:20] um, I've had this lifelong mentor [7:22] throughout much of my adult life that [7:23] was one of my best managers at [7:25] Microsoft. And I recently just in the [7:28] last few years thought, you know, there [7:29] was this one conversation where he [7:30] promoted me into level seven. And I said [7:33] to him, that's great. Thank you. Let's [7:35] talk about how to get to eight, right? [7:37] And his first response to me was like, [7:38] "Phil, can we just take at least one [7:40] one-on-one to celebrate the fact that [7:42] you've actually reached this tremendous [7:45] level at Microsoft?" And I honestly felt [7:47] like, "No, like we can't like I've got [7:50] to keep going." But years later, I [7:52] realized, you know, he himself was [7:54] probably 15 years more in industry than [7:56] I was at the time. And he himself, in [7:59] hindsight, had to be a level seven. He [8:01] was not a partner at Microsoft. And so [8:03] for me to come across sort of so naively [8:06] like without considering for instance [8:08] his feelings or considering just [8:10] realistically this is a guy I look up to [8:12] a lot and he's giving me mentoring [8:14] advice all the time and he himself is [8:16] level seven and so for me to like be [8:18] pushing so hard. I think just the [8:20] humility of realizing that you know what [8:22] like people do tremendous work at those [8:25] levels and I should just appreciate that [8:28] if I can even keep up with the [8:29] expectations that's already kind of a [8:31] big accomplishment. [8:33] If I were to think from when I was you [8:36] at my youngest to the beginning of the [8:38] career, my thought would have been [8:42] keep pushing. And the thoughts that you [8:45] just said are uh they're noble, but [8:50] let's let's go to eight. Let's go. Yes, [8:52] this person's that level, but I want [8:54] more. I want more. What what calmed the [8:58] I guess the gut crazy energy of I want [9:02] more even if it's not realistic. I think [9:05] some of it might be as simple as age to [9:08] be honest. And I think society is [9:10] designed to work this way, right? Like [9:12] young people go to war, right? [9:14] Traditionally, and like there needs to [9:16] be like this ambition of like I'm going [9:18] to build great things. I'm going to do [9:19] great things. I think that energy from [9:21] the young is super powerful. And I [9:23] definitely don't want to sit here and [9:24] say let's quell all of that. Like let's [9:26] make sure when a person is 23 and they [9:28] start work they're like you know like E3 [9:30] is fine right? So I definitely want [9:33] people to have that ambition. I think [9:35] maybe some of it is the natural aging [9:37] process but I think do think at least [9:39] for myself a lot of it was the shifting [9:42] nature of the job itself. I would say [9:44] for me up until let's say an IC6 level [9:48] of work it just felt like doing the same [9:51] stuff but grander if that makes sense [9:53] like you're still coding all day you're [9:55] like meeting with engineers primarily [9:57] and product managers sometimes designers [9:59] but it's just about doing like at a much [10:02] higher amplitude you know I'm now going [10:04] to like do much bigger refactors I'm [10:06] going to like participate in longer [10:07] range projects like oh we should like do [10:10] this new service that does X but I think [10:12] beyond that the nature really changes to [10:15] where like just doing more better is [10:18] typically not how people get there. You [10:20] will have find very rare cases for [10:22] instance where people can do more better [10:24] but they are like prednaturally like [10:26] gifted for you know super fast coding or [10:29] whatever. I was definitely not that [10:30] person because I was much more a [10:32] generalist and so for a generalist going [10:34] beyond six I think it does change the [10:37] nature of the work such that you're [10:38] doing maybe less direct coding for [10:40] instance maybe even less direct [10:42] architecture stuff but much more things [10:44] like team direction you know is this [10:46] even the right product to be building [10:48] right now given where the industry is [10:49] moving maybe trying to influence even [10:52] another organization that's on a [10:53] collision path right like maybe trying [10:55] to find a mutually you know useful way [10:57] to land both sides So I think that also [11:01] you know take pragmatically as you go up [11:04] higher in levels it's almost definitely [11:06] true that you will have more meetings [11:07] just period [laughter] whether you're an [11:08] IC whether you're a manager that's just [11:10] what it is and you know plenty of people [11:12] for whom like directors as an example [11:15] every single hour is meetings and half [11:18] of the hours are double booked and so [11:19] they're just choosing which one to go to [11:22] like for that right that's typically how [11:24] like one small example of how the nature [11:26] of the work changes and so for me as the [11:28] nature of work changes [11:29] you know, I was less enthused about um [11:32] you know, how it might continue to [11:34] change if I continued getting higher [11:35] level. [11:36] >> You mentioned that you sought out a [11:38] demotion from IC9 to IC7 or [11:41] distinguished to senior staff. Did you [11:44] ever consider saying to your manager, I [11:47] don't want to get promoted past IC7? [11:49] >> From going to 7 to 8, not really because [11:52] I didn't know levels had existed at that [11:54] point. So like that promotion was sort [11:56] of like surprise, right? Um, but I think [11:59] if I'm honest, Facebook was also so [12:01] small even back then I was promoted into [12:03] eight maybe one year at Facebook. I was [12:06] a seven at Microsoft for probably three [12:08] years. So you figure like let's say four [12:10] years, right? One year into Facebook I [12:13] get promoted to eight. Facebook was [12:14] still I want to say back then 800 [12:16] engineers globally. So so the company [12:19] was much smaller. And I think when a [12:21] company is that size I think the work [12:24] doesn't include as much meta work. You [12:26] know what I mean? like the work is [12:28] mostly the work so you're like doing the [12:30] code you're doing the actual right [12:32] whereas I would say my experience even [12:34] of Facebook many years later you know [12:36] when I came back to Facebook Seattle you [12:38] know um when I joined I was the second [12:40] person who joined right so the office [12:41] was four desks when I went to London for [12:44] 5 years and I came back the office was [12:45] more than 2,000 people and so just like [12:48] that mind-blowing size means that the [12:51] typical senior job when an organization [12:54] is tens of thousands of people is a lot [12:56] more people wrangling I guess and a lot [13:00] more [13:02] I don't know a lot less technical. I [13:05] think one of the struggles I've had [13:06] throughout my career is so many higher [13:10] level jobs including a solid IC6 quote [13:13] unquote just coding has to do with how [13:15] well they work with others and I in some [13:18] environments just don't work very well [13:20] with people like I in others do. I would [13:22] say objectively when I was leading the [13:24] Facebook London site, I was good at the [13:26] job. It was a very people focused job, [13:28] but it was for me the happy parts of [13:30] people like welcome to the team or like [13:32] hey we're going to like do this [13:34] collaboration with Menel Park and all [13:36] this stuff. I think there's another type [13:38] of people oriented thing that happens at [13:40] large companies which is a lot of what [13:43] people might call politics but a lot of [13:46] sort of work that has nothing to do with [13:48] the actual software deliverable but has [13:50] everything to do with the fact that when [13:52] three or more people are somewhere [13:54] there's politics right and like just [13:57] figuring out the people thing dealing [13:58] with unhappy people for instance is [14:00] something I'm very bad at um giving [14:03] people constructive feedback is [14:05] something that I am fairly really bad [14:07] at. And so more jobs at those levels [14:09] just require even an IC7 minding his own [14:12] business is probably regularly supposed [14:15] to be giving pretty helpful feedback to [14:17] other engineers. You know, they're not [14:19] their managers, but still you should be [14:21] improving those around you. And I am [14:24] much less good at that. when you sought [14:27] out the demotion from IC9 to IC7, I'm [14:31] just thinking for someone who's thinking [14:34] that the success criteria is going up in [14:38] levels, it would be very difficult to [14:40] accept going down from, you know, kind [14:45] of like undoing all that hard work, [14:46] quote unquote. What was that process [14:49] like? I think it was hard. Um I think it [14:53] was Will Smith or someone else famous [14:55] said like getting famous is amazing [14:58] being famous is a mixed bag and then [15:00] getting not famous is horrible [15:02] [laughter] right and I think that's [15:04] human nature not just about fame but [15:06] about anything right when we are growing [15:08] in anything like let's suppose you first [15:10] get into auto repair right the first big [15:12] job you do beyond an oil change feels [15:14] like success right eventually you've [15:16] like removed an engine you've like done [15:18] clutches right and at some point like my [15:21] age right now I literally just started [15:23] giving away some of my my auto repair [15:26] gear because I'm realizing you know I'm [15:29] not doing this as much like physically [15:31] I'm not as capable of doing it and that [15:33] feels a little bit sad and I think the [15:35] same thing happened to me in uh my [15:37] software career which is on the way [15:40] rising up it always felt great right [15:43] other than the rising expectations and [15:45] the worries around that but the general [15:47] thing felt like oh I'm progressing um [15:50] being at the top was a mixed bag. You [15:53] know, there were some amazing things, [15:55] there were some very hard things. And [15:56] then I think coming down, I feel like [15:59] there were a few things that were hard [16:00] about it. One was that I think I I knew [16:05] I could do more, you know, because I had [16:08] done more before, but part of it was the [16:11] feeling of being exhausted running at [16:14] that pace and always having the eye of [16:17] Sauron like roving the land looking for [16:19] people, right? And I think the higher [16:22] level you are, the more that you feel [16:24] that intensity all the time and [16:26] rightfully so, like you're getting paid [16:28] the big bucks and so it's right for a [16:30] company to say you you know constantly [16:32] question whether or not they are getting [16:34] their value out of you. So I think it's [16:36] only fair but I felt that struggle. And [16:39] I think the other thing that was hard [16:40] for me about getting demoted down to [16:42] seven was more that feeling that as I [16:44] saw other people who used to be below me [16:48] rise above me beyond that level. That [16:51] was very difficult. I don't begrudge [16:53] them their success. So I'm not at all [16:55] saying like I'd rather go out there and [16:56] make sure this person never succeeds. [16:58] What I mean is more that um I felt [17:01] wistful I guess is the right word which [17:03] is like I was not crushed that someone [17:06] else was doing better but I did feel a [17:07] little bit like I once could do that [17:09] work and part of me wonders if I could [17:11] again right it's like when Beaolf at age [17:14] 70 is asked to like slay the dragon one [17:16] last time like he gets out of his his [17:18] old you know house and he's like and he [17:20] slays the dragon one last time part of [17:22] me wishes that I had that in me that [17:24] like when I'm 70 I can be called upon [17:26] one last time to do this thing Right. [17:28] And I'm able to deliver at that level, [17:30] but I know [snorts] that maybe that's [17:32] not it for me. Right. [17:34] >> You mentioned that you used to be able [17:35] to do it and then you couldn't. What [17:37] What changed that made it hard to [17:39] perform at that level? [17:41] >> I think if I were to [17:43] buck it into a few categories. One is my [17:45] environment changed. So as Facebook the [17:47] company grew, right? Um senior IC's do a [17:52] lot better I think in tiny uh in in [17:54] larger companies if they are domain [17:56] experts. So you're great at, let's say, [17:59] SQL optimization, right? And like you're [18:02] helping SQL move on to SSD and you're [18:04] moving SQL into the cloud. Um, that sort [18:06] of IC does best in a large company. In a [18:09] tiny company, a generalist does best [18:12] because like when I first started on [18:13] video calling, I also negotiated like [18:15] the contracts with Skype, with a third [18:17] party tester, like with all sorts of [18:18] things. So I'm like negotiating [18:20] contracts. I'm like doing crazy things, [18:21] but I'm also coding the thing. And then [18:23] when the press release goes out, I'm [18:24] talking to the press. So, I'm literally [18:26] meeting the press about the video [18:27] calling feature, right? That is what a [18:29] generalist excels at. And I could only [18:31] do that because Facebook was small. By [18:33] the time I came back to Facebook Seattle [18:35] and the Seattle office itself was 2,000 [18:37] plus people and the company was maybe, I [18:39] don't know, 30,000 people. There's no [18:41] way you would send me out to negotiate a [18:42] contract [laughter] with like Microsoft. [18:44] That would be ridiculous, right? And so, [18:47] for me as a generalist, my environment [18:49] shifted to where specialists would [18:50] survive better. And for me as a [18:52] generalist, I was honestly just not as [18:54] useful, right? Like for one whole [18:56] six-month period, the team that I was [18:57] on, the only mission for the IC's for [19:00] that entire six months was fix the bugs [19:02] on this internal tool. So I spent six [19:03] months fixing the bugs, which I'm happy [19:05] to do, but I am not especially skilled [19:08] at that, right? And so I think one thing [19:11] was my environment changed. I think the [19:13] other thing that changed for me was I [19:15] did tire a little bit of feeling like [19:19] there was always so much pressure just [19:21] to meet expectations, if that makes [19:23] sense. Um, so up until I would say IC6, [19:28] um, I never felt the eye of Sauron. Like [19:30] I I was never at any point in my career [19:32] feeling like, oh, if I just fall a [19:34] little below right now, maybe they're [19:36] going to can me, right? Um, but I think [19:39] regularly at seven and beyond, once in a [19:41] while, I would feel like, ooh, like I [19:43] feel like my own performance this half, [19:46] I don't know, like things aren't looking [19:48] [laughter] great. You know what I mean? [19:50] And I think in a way it's like when I [19:53] was super ambitious, being like the [19:55] slowest member of a team, but catching [19:57] up and rising was exciting to me. As I [20:00] accomplished more in my career and I [20:02] felt my happy places, I no longer like [20:05] the feeling of being slowest on a team [20:07] or feeling like I was potentially going [20:10] to have a talking to at some point [20:11] because I wasn't performing on [20:13] expectations. So I think that that sort [20:15] of pressure also was something that I no [20:18] longer enjoyed. In reality that Eye of [20:21] Sauron though was um in your head rather [20:24] than reality given that you got promoted [20:26] from 7 to 8 and 8 to 9, right? [20:29] >> Yes. Maybe some of it is imposttor [20:31] syndrome but I think a lot of it is [20:33] actually just an honest look at myself [20:35] and reality. So when I was an IC4 [20:38] looking to go to IC5, right? There were [20:40] plenty of IC5s where I felt like I could [20:42] totally do that work like [laughter] [20:43] like just give me two years and I'll be [20:45] just as good, right? at IC7 I could see [20:48] many IC7s where I'm like honestly if you [20:51] put me on that guy's team I could not do [20:53] that work like right like I I know I [20:56] can't right and and so I think my [21:00] realistic appraisal of my own abilities [21:02] was I think more accurate [laughter] to [21:05] to what they actually were um and also [21:08] maybe some of it you know if I riff on [21:10] your theme a little bit maybe some of it [21:12] also is that um as you get more and more [21:16] senior here. Not only are the [21:18] expectations higher, but the number of [21:21] business roles where you are the perfect [21:24] guy for the role actually is far far [21:26] less. [21:28] So when you're an IC6, almost any team [21:30] would welcome one. It's like great, like [21:32] just pick up a keyboard and like we'll [21:34] get going. But I think once you get to a [21:36] certain level, it's like, well, we need [21:38] someone who's good at like we need [21:40] someone who's good at marketing and then [21:41] this person has to also be somewhat [21:43] technical or like the shapes become very [21:45] specific, right? And I think that just [21:48] realizing that my shape wasn't right for [21:50] many, many roles also made me [21:52] realistically feel like maybe this isn't [21:53] the right long-term place for me. It [21:56] sounds like over the course of your [21:57] career, you worked an extraordinary [22:00] amount. I mean, you mentioned last time [22:01] we talked that you bring a sleeping bag [22:04] to work, [laughter] [22:06] you know, and I think early in your [22:09] career it it makes a lot of sense cuz [22:12] you were so gung-ho and you were [22:13] pursuing the promos, but then when you [22:16] were at Facebook and you weren't [22:18] pursuing the promos, you were just [22:19] getting them because you were doing [22:21] awesome work. What was your motivation [22:23] to work so so crazy hours at that time? [22:27] One of the most intense work periods of [22:30] my life was shipping the first version [22:32] of Facebook video calling. You know, um [22:34] I had worked with uh Denise, with Chago, [22:37] with maybe one or two other with VJ. Um [22:41] that first version when we went out, I [22:43] think I went about six weeks down in [22:46] Menllo Park where I literally got up out [22:49] of bed, went in straight to work and [22:51] worked all the way until I drove back to [22:53] the apartment and went to sleep. I was [22:55] eating junk food the whole day. It was [22:57] like sun chips and like whatever. But [22:59] despite that, I lost 10 pounds in those [23:01] six weeks. Oh my god. It goes to show [23:03] like how intense like brain related work [23:06] can be. But I had a no idea there were [23:09] levels. So obviously a promotion was [23:11] nowhere on my mind when I was doing this [23:13] work. But I tell you, it was one of the [23:15] most fun periods of my life because it [23:18] felt so thrilling that I was directly [23:21] impacting like real users because [23:23] Facebook was so tiny back then. Like you [23:25] could see the users having errors right [23:28] away. I was patching errors every day. [23:30] Like it felt like missional, right? It [23:33] felt like this was the first time video [23:35] calling was going to be easy for people [23:36] without installing any software. Web RTC [23:38] was relatively new back then. we still [23:40] had to get some software with the first [23:42] version out. And so I felt like the [23:44] strong sense of mission and being on a [23:47] tiny team of like three people also felt [23:49] like wow I owe it to the other folks too [23:51] who are working equally hard to like [23:53] pull forward, right? So I think that was [23:57] still in it for me but no longer based [23:59] on um promotions as a thing but more [24:02] like I believed in what I was doing and [24:05] I felt that direct um direct customer [24:08] contact with people I could actually see [24:10] getting impacted positively by the [24:12] fixes. [24:13] >> When you look back on a career of [24:15] working so many hours, would you say [24:18] that it's worth it and would you [24:20] recommend it to others? I think it's [24:22] become popular for successful people to [24:25] tell people not to push as hard and for [24:27] wealthy people to tell people to not [24:29] push us hard. And it's understandable [24:31] that people who aren't as late in their [24:34] career or aren't as wealthy would say, [24:36] "Well, it's easy for you to say that." [24:37] Like, right, because you've already [24:39] gotten the like I once had a guy say to [24:41] me like, "Well, it's easy for you to say [24:42] that because you've already been there, [24:44] done that." And I think at some level, [24:46] yes. Um, but I also think that [24:52] there is sometimes wisdom that can only [24:54] be gotten when you live a certain thing [24:56] yourself. This is why when someone tells [24:58] you u money can't buy happiness, nobody [25:01] believes it, right? Everybody thinks [25:02] they'll be the one exception. And I [25:04] think the thing is like [25:07] you you have to have lived a certain [25:10] life before to really objectively be [25:12] able to say whether it's better or not. [25:14] And I think for me um given my [25:17] personality I think the really much [25:20] higher level roles that require broad [25:22] impact and feel like a lot of pressure [25:25] for me people-wise just for my own [25:28] personality over time is not the right [25:30] thing. But I would at the same time say [25:33] well I don't want to look at gift horse [25:34] in the mouth like the freedom for me to [25:37] for instance work on my own software [25:38] right now. It only comes from having had [25:40] a career where I got paid enough that I [25:43] could save enough money that I can go [25:44] two years writing my own software, [25:46] right? Um, and I don't want to look that [25:48] in the mouth and say like, oh no, like I [25:49] totally shouldn't have done that. Like [25:51] that's not true at all. Like I think [25:53] what it is for me is um I would have [25:56] appreciated when I was younger being [25:59] more cognizant of the trade-offs that I [26:01] was making, you know, like hey, if I [26:03] like dig in really hard right now and I [26:06] really work hard, then this will buy me [26:08] the freedom when I'm 50 to work two [26:10] years on my own software. Like I wish I [26:12] knew that was the trade-off. Whereas I [26:14] think at the time I was just blindly [26:16] pushing forward of like, hey, like I'm [26:19] just ambitious. I want to do all this [26:21] stuff. [26:22] >> And in your career, in your life in [26:23] general, you must have mentored so many [26:26] people. And like you said, if you give [26:31] someone advice and then but they can't [26:34] really take it until they actually [26:36] experience it, is all advice useless [26:39] then [laughter] [26:41] like what's the point? I think there is [26:45] still a point which is there's a massive [26:47] difference between you ignoring advice [26:49] and you not knowing the advice was even [26:52] there. And I think the difference is two [26:55] things. One is when you have the advice [26:57] in the back of your head, but you're [26:58] ignoring it. When eventually some [27:00] consequence comes about, it actually [27:03] will reinforce for you why the advice [27:05] was given and you're much more likely to [27:07] take more immediate action because it [27:09] rings true, right? And so when someone [27:11] tells you money won't buy happiness and [27:13] let's say a brick of $2 million falls on [27:14] your forehead, right? Um um and then you [27:17] go out and you buy something and you [27:19] realize it's not a happy thing. Like one [27:21] of the things that I splurged on for [27:22] myself when I felt like I have financial [27:24] security is I bought a $50 pen, okay? [27:27] Because the New York magazine said this [27:30] is the best pen out of the 100 they [27:31] reviewed. And it was this Baron Fig pen [27:33] out [clears throat] of machined aluminum [27:35] or something. And I bought that pen and [27:38] after using it a while I realized this [27:40] is not my favorite pen. Like there's a [27:42] G2 Pilot or whatever that's like much [27:45] better than this and it's like a buck [27:46] 50, right? Um it took me buying that [27:49] aluminum mil pen before I'm like [27:51] actually if you mill a pen exactly [27:53] round, no matter what surface you put it [27:55] on, it's about to roll off, right? [27:56] [laughter] And like it's like hard to [27:58] grip onto because it's slippery. Um it [28:01] it takes getting there. So I I think [28:03] part of the advice is when you finally [28:05] do like buy that pen and you're [28:07] disappointed by it, you realize, hey, [28:09] people used to tell me that this thing [28:12] might happen, right? So I I think that [28:14] recognition is helpful. I think the [28:16] other thing, however, is even if you [28:17] don't take someone's advice right away, [28:19] I do think at least for me, when I next [28:22] face a decision where that advice might [28:24] apply, it makes me think a little more [28:26] hard about it. You know, like I may not [28:29] take the advice, but I'll at least [28:30] think, you know, several very smart [28:32] people have told me, you know, this [28:34] thing. Maybe there's a reason that they [28:36] say that. Open AAI, Enthropic, Cursor, [28:40] and Versel all use this product to make [28:42] their lives better. And the problem it [28:44] solves is when you're building SAS or an [28:47] AI product and you want to sell to other [28:49] companies, there's all these [28:50] requirements you need to meet. There's [28:52] SSO, there's skim, there's arbback, [28:56] there's audit logs. These are all things [28:57] that take time to integrate but aren't [29:00] the main focus of your app. Work OS is [29:02] an API layer that lets you meet all of [29:04] these requirements in just a few lines [29:06] of code. So let's say you have a new SAS [29:08] product and you want to sell to other [29:10] companies. Work OS will solve all of [29:12] these critical feature gaps for you. You [29:15] can check them out at workos.com to [29:17] learn more and get started. And I [29:20] appreciate them for supporting my work [29:21] and sponsoring this podcast. Jira by [29:24] Atlassian isn't just for tracking work [29:26] anymore. 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Obviously [29:50] [snorts] part of career and like what [29:53] motivates people at some point is the [29:55] financial earnings and um uh I'm curious [29:59] to explore the topic of the motivation [30:01] after those more objective things [30:04] because for instance there's this this [30:06] subreddit and this movement on you know [30:08] financial independence and all of that [30:11] and I remember when I used to look at [30:12] that subreddit um there would be a [30:15] recurring post of someone saying hey I [30:18] finally did it I finally hit my [30:19] retirement number and I'm depressed or I [30:23] don't I don't know what to do because [30:24] they've been on this uh money-making [30:26] hamster wheel for such a long time that [30:29] their happiness was kind of tied to [30:31] that. And so at some point in your [30:35] career, you you broke out of that [30:37] needing to be on that that wheel. What [30:40] did you look to that gave you meaning [30:43] and fulfillment in your day-to-day [30:45] outside of needing to be in this [30:48] capitalist machine? [30:50] I feel like to your point about the fire [30:53] movement, I think there are two types of [30:55] personalities. There's one type which [30:58] when retired will be happy and they will [31:00] be happy for years. You know this is the [31:02] type of person that is happy to sit on a [31:04] beach, read a book and if they are doing [31:06] that two months from now they are still [31:08] happy. It's like oh this is the best [31:10] right? There's another type of [31:11] personality which is mine which is the [31:13] first week on the beach is amazing and [31:16] then once I'm there for two weeks I'm [31:17] like what what's going on? like what am [31:19] I doing here? For me, 4 months on a [31:22] beach feels like quote unquote a waste. [31:25] And I know that that offends many [31:26] people. Like for the type of personality [31:28] for whom lifelong beach them is amazing, [31:31] they will feel like what I'm saying is [31:32] nonsensical. But I think there's a type [31:34] of personality that ex that understands [31:36] exactly what I'm saying, which is like [31:38] that sort of person feels like, you [31:40] know, the rat in the cage that pushes [31:41] the dopamine button and then like dies [31:43] pushing it because it can't even bother [31:44] to eat because it feels the pleasure is [31:46] so great that it can't eat. When I see [31:48] that, I feel like that's sad. Like that [31:51] to me is sad. That is not dying in [31:53] bliss. Like there's a type of [31:54] personality that says, "What more could [31:56] you want?" Like if you could feel a [31:58] sensation that is more desirable than [32:00] even food when you're starving. Like [32:02] wouldn't that be the epitome of [32:03] happiness? And in my mind, that is just [32:06] travesty. Like like to me, it feels like [32:08] this rat could have been so much more. [32:10] Right? So that's how I feel about [32:12] myself. So I would say of the fire [32:14] movement for someone like me the best [32:17] parts of the fire movement for if I were [32:19] to embrace it myself which I never did [32:21] but if I were to embrace it the best [32:23] part would have been before I retired [32:25] because it gave me such a strong sense [32:27] of purpose I am going to save up until I [32:30] have $1.5 million that's the goal and [32:33] like every two months I can like [32:34] reme-measure how the investments are [32:36] doing right that is the excitement like [32:39] the moment I reach the R in fire [32:42] >> [laughter] [32:42] >> And that's actually probably the [32:43] dangerous spot for me. So I think in my [32:46] particular case for my personality [32:49] always having that sense of a goal is [32:51] good. And that is what I've struggled [32:53] with when I have been in periods of [32:55] unemployment. I've really struggled with [32:57] like what what quote unquote should I be [32:59] doing. So then I guess question is so [33:03] you you can think of getting promoted [33:07] and all all this stuff in engineering as [33:10] this this game that you're playing and [33:12] you got a goal and you're kind of going [33:14] up and you're excited. Oh, I want to go [33:15] to that next one. Oh, I want to go to [33:16] the next one. I'm going to grow the [33:18] skills. Do you think that you'd be [33:20] happier if you got promoted slower and [33:23] the game lasted your whole career? So [33:26] let's say whenever it is you actually [33:28] want to retire say I don't know 65 or [33:32] whatever the age is and we could we [33:34] could set up that game so that you are [33:37] constantly searching for that next goal [33:41] and you get IC9 at 65 and you get you [33:45] know a nice little hit of dopamine all [33:47] along the way and you're constantly [33:49] growing you know do you think you'd be [33:51] happier in that case versus you speedrun [33:54] everything and you get to IC9 9 in the [33:56] first, you know, third of the game. [33:59] >> I feel like titrating it out would have [34:01] been better for me. Maybe not all the [34:02] way till 65, let's say, right? But like [34:05] take from E3 to E9 is about six levels, [34:08] right? If you work about 42 years in [34:10] your career, that's one level promo [34:12] every seven years. When I imagine myself [34:15] taking seven years to go from three to [34:16] four, I'd feel like, oh man, I'd feel [34:18] like I was so like um behind in the [34:22] sense that it's not a competition, but I [34:24] would feel like, you know, am I really [34:25] progressing? Because seven years you [34:26] could get a PhD at Stanford, right, in [34:28] [laughter] in seven years. So I'm like, [34:29] dude, what like what's what's going on, [34:31] right? But the lema or the correlary of [34:34] what I'm saying then is let's suppose [34:36] you get from three to five or six within [34:39] let's say seven years which is like a [34:41] leisurely not superstar pace but not [34:43] like terrible pace like you go from E3 [34:45] to six in let's say seven or eight years [34:46] right the remaining three levels let's [34:50] say you would need about 12 years [34:52] between each of them for the math to [34:54] work and when I think about 12 years I [34:56] also feel like oh that feels so long [34:58] like I worked at Microsoft 12 years and [35:00] that was on six different teams, right? [35:02] So, on one hand, I feel like it would be [35:04] better if it came sooner, you know, but [35:07] on the other hand, I do feel like you'd [35:10] have to recognize if it came sooner that [35:11] you might be 25 years uh in your career [35:14] without a promotion. And for me, I think [35:17] I would have to, if I were in my 20s and [35:20] you told me that, I would have to have [35:22] shifted my intrinsic motivation to [35:24] something beyond career levels. And in [35:27] my 20s, I didn't have other intrinsic [35:29] motivations. Like, so that would have [35:31] been disappointing for me. I'll throw in [35:33] one last thought, though. The median age [35:35] of a Corvette owner in America is 64. [35:38] And so, and and that's a medium, meaning [35:40] half the people are are are above that, [35:42] right? Um, I personally imagine by the [35:44] time I'm 64, owning a Corvette would be [35:47] not half as interesting as when I was [35:49] 38. You know what I mean? And so in a [35:52] sense, I mean, is reaching E9 at 62 like [35:56] like as good? Is that like getting a [35:58] Corvette at 64? I don't know. Like I [36:00] feel like in a way maybe that progress [36:03] is wasted on someone that that's that's [36:05] that late in career. So I'm torn about [36:07] it. You mentioned in between jobs or [36:10] when you were um Yeah, when you're in [36:12] between jobs, the motivation or the [36:14] goals were harder. Did you ever discover [36:18] meaning or fulfillment outside of an [36:21] immediate I guess goal or you know do [36:24] you have any advice on finding meaning [36:27] in your work? [36:28] >> Yeah, very personality dependent but for [36:30] me the thing I learned about myself is [36:33] that I need to do more stuff with [36:35] people. You know what I got out of work [36:37] a big part of it was the socialization [36:39] like you show up you know it's like they [36:41] mandatorily have to show up whereas when [36:43] I throw a party nobody mandatorily has [36:44] to show up. So work is like mandatory [36:46] socialization. But when I first quit um [36:50] Facebook and I took six months off, I [36:53] thought this would be amazing. I'm going [36:54] to reach out to all sorts of longlost [36:56] former co-worker friends for coffee and [36:58] whatnot. But the problem is everybody [37:00] else was busy working. So when I wrote [37:02] them like, "Hey, can you grab a coffee?" [37:03] Whatever. It's like, "Well, I can't like [37:05] maybe next week." Right? And so what I [37:07] figured out there was that wow, like I [37:09] thought I would have all this [37:10] socialization, but I didn't. The best [37:13] time being without work was I had about [37:15] a six or a ninemonth period where two [37:18] other former co-workers of mine also [37:20] were between jobs and that was amazing. [37:23] Like we went skiing three times a week [37:25] on weekdays, right? Like we did all [37:27] sorts of stuff together. We ate dinner [37:29] out. And I imagine that's what I would [37:31] like to think British aristocrats in the [37:33] 1800s like the same men that dug up like [37:36] the bones from the Jurassic region and [37:38] that's why it's called the Jurassic era, [37:40] right? Like those people, right? um the [37:42] gentleman scientists, right? I would [37:44] like to think that part of the secret to [37:45] the happiness of the aristocracy is [37:47] actually that there were other [37:49] aristocrats also looking to do something [37:51] together, you know, like it was fun [37:53] because like you you know Mr. Darcy had [37:55] no job but you have no job either. So [37:57] you and Mr. Darcy get together three [37:59] times a week to you know whatever play [38:02] botchi ball. So, I feel like that is the [38:04] secret for me. And realizing that has [38:06] made me feel like whether I'm working or [38:09] not working, being in a situation where [38:11] I can find regular socialization is [38:14] probably key to me being happier. [38:17] Do you have any book recommendation? [38:19] Something that you've read that gave you [38:22] perspective on life that you recommend [38:23] to someone who maybe earlier in their [38:26] career are still figuring out how they [38:28] want to plan things out. [38:30] >> Yes, I love the book 4,000 Weeks. I'm [38:32] not sure if you've read it. I [38:33] >> haven't. What's it about? [38:34] >> Oh, highly recommended by Oliver. Oh, [38:36] man. I'm gonna pull out the last name. [38:38] But 4,000 weeks. Uh, his idea is that [38:40] the the average one of us probably has [38:42] about 4,000 weeks. And you've probably [38:44] seen the Tim Urban like cartoon where he [38:46] draws out like a single box for every [38:48] week of his whole life, right? When you [38:50] think about a life as 4,000 weeks, it [38:53] actually feels a lot more precious and [38:54] every week feels much more [38:56] consequential. So reading that book [38:57] really helped me take a broader look [39:00] around. Decisions were often hard for me [39:02] because my values weren't clear. But [39:04] what I would say to the average person [39:06] if they're willing to hear the advice [39:08] would be something like, you know, first [39:09] visualize today's biggest goal for [39:11] yourself in the next whatever many [39:13] years. Like maybe you want to retire by [39:15] the time you're 36 or whatever the fire [39:16] people want, right? Um visualize that [39:18] goal. Then I would say now pretend [39:20] you've just reached it. What do you do [39:23] next? If you have a good answer for [39:24] that, then you're fine, you know? then [39:26] you'll be just fine. I did not have an [39:28] answer for that and being that person uh [39:31] not having that ready answer really left [39:34] me in a place where I was like uh is it [39:36] Michael Phelps or whoever like there's [39:38] so many athletes for whom once you reach [39:40] that career peak like they realize like [39:43] wait what's after football or what's [39:44] after swimming like and the answer is [39:46] nothing because they've built no other [39:47] skills in any other domain and once [39:49] they're not a famous football player [39:50] it's like well how many people really [39:52] want to see them and for what reasons [39:53] other than to ask them for money and so [39:55] I feel like many People have that big [39:58] goal. I'm going to get in the NFL. I'm [40:00] going to get in the NBA, right? But they [40:02] don't know what they're going to do the [40:03] day after. And so, if I could give one [40:06] piece of advice to people, it would be [40:07] like think about the day after and what [40:09] you're going to do. And I think the book [40:10] 4,000 Weeks really helps a person think [40:13] about that. [40:14] >> And I guess last question, if you could [40:16] go all the way back to the beginning and [40:18] do it over again, is there anything that [40:20] you would change? [40:22] I think there were a few times in my [40:26] career where I think I biased too much [40:30] toward being maximally available for my [40:32] employer and not available at all for [40:34] friends or family. I think there were a [40:37] few incidents. Um, and I think if I [40:39] could change things again, I would have [40:42] played those periods of my life [40:44] differently. Funny enough, one of them [40:46] was not when I lost 10 pounds working [40:48] six weeks at Facebook because funny [40:50] enough, my kids were very young back [40:51] then, right? Like probably like three [40:53] and one or something. But what was great [40:55] was I told my wife back then, "Hey, [40:57] after we ship, it's probably going to be [40:59] nuts." And so what we did was we just [41:01] moved the whole family down to [41:02] California. [laughter] [41:03] And so like my wife took the kids to the [41:05] library every day. I could see them for [41:08] 14 minutes before I went to sleep, [41:09] right? and like having family with me [41:12] and just treating it more like, hey [41:13] everybody, we're just going to go on a [41:15] big trip. That actually made it all [41:17] right. Whereas I think there were other [41:18] times in my career where, you know, my [41:21] wife was the primary one taking the kids [41:22] to and from school. I had very little [41:24] conversation with them. Um it felt like [41:27] I was doing important things quote [41:28] unquote for the family, right? But at [41:31] the same time, um I wasn't with the [41:33] family. And so there are times like that [41:35] where I do think there were a few [41:37] periods where I would have played that [41:38] differently. [41:40] Everything in life, we have limited [41:41] time. So everything in life, there's [41:43] tradeoffs. [41:45] If you did, let's just say you went back [41:47] to those times and you prioritized [41:49] family, would that have made a material [41:52] difference in your career success? [41:55] >> I think it might have. And I think the [41:57] trade-off [41:59] is in my case definitely worth it. Um, I [42:03] say I think it might have because it's [42:05] very hard to tell. Like I'll I'll throw [42:07] out examples where it's hard to tell. [42:10] You know how sometimes there's the type [42:12] of engineer who works like super long [42:13] hours, but you can tell that as they [42:15] work longer and longer, they're actually [42:16] creating more and more progressions and [42:18] they're like getting worse and worse, [42:19] right? For that sort of person, like a [42:22] break would actually improve their [42:23] performance. So there's no telling for [42:26] which like maybe sometimes taking a [42:28] break would have made me actually [42:30] perform even better, right? So, I don't [42:33] want to say that that's definitely not [42:34] true, but I also feel for the type of [42:37] person who constantly tells other [42:38] people, "Relax, work a 40-hour work [42:40] week. You'll do just as well and even [42:42] better than other people." I don't think [42:44] that's in general true. Like, I think [42:46] just at the face of it, it doesn't seem [42:48] like it could be true. If two people [42:51] were the same skill level, right, but [42:53] one just worked 10 hours more per week [42:55] over a period of time, I think anybody [42:58] would feel it was grossly unfair if that [42:59] person wasn't rewarded any differently. [43:02] Like it would feel like what? Like what [43:03] sort of crazy company do you work for [43:05] where like these two people get [43:06] compensated the identical amount over [43:08] multiple years, but one guy's working [43:10] 40% more, right? It makes no sense. So, [43:13] I do suspect it would have impacted [43:15] career, but I think also that I would [43:18] have gladly taken that trade-off. [43:20] >> Awesome. Well, thank you so much for [43:21] your time, Phil. I really appreciate it. [43:23] >> Yeah, thanks for having me again. [43:24] >> Hey, thank you for watching this [43:26] podcast. If you liked it and you want to [43:27] see the show grow, please support with a [43:30] comment or a like. Also, if you have any [43:32] recommendations for people you want me [43:34] to bring on, please drop a comment. [43:37] guests like Barbara Liskov, Mike [43:39] Stonereaker, Mark Brooker. These were [43:41] all people that I brought on because [43:43] someone left a comment. On another note, [43:46] aside from the podcast, I'm working on [43:47] building the ergonomic keyboard that I [43:49] wish existed. Here's a glance at the [43:52] prototype. It's a split keyboard, so [43:54] there's two sides. Um, this is in the [43:56] case, but yeah, we launched on [43:57] Kickstarter and we hit our goal within [43:59] eight hours of launching. I really [44:01] appreciate it if you were one of the [44:02] people who grabbed one of the early [44:04] units. Um, we're now working on the long [44:06] journey of building the tooling now. And [44:08] so if you still want to pick one up, [44:10] I've left the late pledges open on [44:12] Kickstarter, so you can grab one there. [44:14] I'll put a link in the description. [44:16] Thank you again for watching the podcast [44:19] and I'll see you in the next