Screen time, the fight for kids’ attention

University of Michigan

AI-assisted summary of Screen time, the fight for kids’ attention — original source. Check the original for full context.

Source published: 2026-09-15

Key ideas

Screen time challenges stem from systemic engagement-based design rather than parenting deficits, operating like an unstoppable conveyor belt of ultra-palatable content engineered to monetize youth attention. (26:14)
Classroom device bans and locking pouches alleviate teacher fatigue, but tech companies need to implement automated platform-level friction during school hours to effectively curtail workarounds. (9:59)
Early monitoring of Australia's under-16 social media ban shows that motivated adolescents easily bypass age checks, while emergency mental health hotlines experienced an immediate spike in calls from displaced youth. (21:16)
Parental controls and safety defaults regularly fail because widespread inaccurate age reporting causes recommendation algorithms to treat children as adults and serve unrequested, high-arousal content. (11:15)

Detailed notes

## Background Published by the University of Michigan on YouTube on September 15, 2026, this episode of the Michigan Minds podcast features Dr. Jenny Radesky, associate professor of pediatrics and Director of the Division of Developmental Behavioral Pediatrics at the University of Michigan Medical School. The episode explores the hidden design forces that make modern technology difficult for families to manage, the complexities of classroom phone bans, and systemic approaches parents can take to reclaim their children's attention without self-blame.

## TL;DR Dr. Jenny Radesky reframes screen time battles not as individual parenting failures, but as systemic challenges engineered by tech platforms optimized for non-stop attention and profit. She examines school phone restrictions and international social media bans, demonstrating how motivated youth easily bypass technical barriers and how outright bans can inadvertently harm marginalized teens or push them toward anthropomorphic AI chatbots. To mitigate these risks, Radesky advocates for device-level friction, setting up starter phones with restricted data and locked app stores, and prioritizing human-curated media over algorithmic feeds. Ultimately, she encourages families to replace punitive accusations with collaborative boundary-setting, drawing on parental nostalgia to intentionally fill screen-free time with messy, real-world connection.

## Atmosphere & style The conversation carries a warm, reassuring, and intellectually grounded tone as Dr. Radesky balances her expertise as a pediatrician and former FTC behavioral team lead with the candid vulnerability of an everyday parent. Juan Ochoa guides the exchange with curious, reflective prompts, creating an unhurried academic dialogue that directly de-escalates parental panic. Listening feels both practical and emotionally validating, transforming an otherwise stressful societal debate into an empowering reminder of the enduring value of low-tech, human-centered childhood experiences.

## Bulletin - [26:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7M3PZ58-Mw&t=1574s) Screen time challenges stem from systemic engagement-based design rather than parenting deficits, operating like an unstoppable conveyor belt of ultra-palatable content engineered to monetize youth attention. - [09:59](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7M3PZ58-Mw&t=599s) Classroom device bans and locking pouches alleviate teacher fatigue, but tech companies need to implement automated platform-level friction during school hours to effectively curtail workarounds. - [21:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7M3PZ58-Mw&t=1276s) Early monitoring of Australia's under-16 social media ban shows that motivated adolescents easily bypass age checks, while emergency mental health hotlines experienced an immediate spike in calls from displaced youth. - [11:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7M3PZ58-Mw&t=675s) Parental controls and safety defaults regularly fail because widespread inaccurate age reporting causes recommendation algorithms to treat children as adults and serve unrequested, high-arousal content.

## Key takeaways - [01:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7M3PZ58-Mw&t=69s) Technology functions as a frictionless 'easy button' that outcompetes real-world childhood activities, depriving kids of the discomfort required to build resilience and self-regulation. - [03:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7M3PZ58-Mw&t=193s) Parents can disrupt daily automated routines by drawing on their own childhood nostalgia to introduce low-tech, creative play options for their children. - [04:43](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7M3PZ58-Mw&t=283s) Classroom phone restrictions help teachers manage attention, but schools should treat compulsive device misuse as a sign of underlying distress rather than issuing punitive suspensions. - [09:59](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7M3PZ58-Mw&t=599s) Hardware and platform developers must bear systemic responsibility by engineering devices to become deliberately boring during instructional school hours. - [11:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7M3PZ58-Mw&t=675s) Device sharing and arbitrary birth year inputs undermine age verification, leading recommendation engines to deliver adult-targeted media to children. - [11:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7M3PZ58-Mw&t=675s) Engagement-driven algorithms prioritize predictive emotional arousal over safety, exposing adolescents to sensational violence, beauty ideals, and polarizing media. - [14:55](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7M3PZ58-Mw&t=895s) Human-curated media and long-form narrative films offer complex storytelling and organic conversation starters while shielding youth from low-quality user-generated content and AI slop. - [17:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7M3PZ58-Mw&t=1040s) Starter phones should be configured as 'dumb' devices with strict app store locks and disabled browsers before unrestricted digital habits can take root. - [19:24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7M3PZ58-Mw&t=1164s) Constraining cellular data plans prevents smartphones from becoming mindless filler snacks during moments of downtime, helping normalize boredom. - [20:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7M3PZ58-Mw&t=1240s) Automated time-of-day shutoffs during school and bedtime disrupt the brain's reflexive habit loop and eliminate daily renegotiation battles. - [21:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7M3PZ58-Mw&t=1276s) Blanket legislative bans on social media risk severing vital identity support networks for marginalized adolescents before safer community alternatives are established. - [24:31](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7M3PZ58-Mw&t=1471s) Restricting social platforms without redesigning feed architectures risks driving vulnerable adolescents toward anthropomorphic AI chatbots that simulate empathy without genuine human connection. - [26:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7M3PZ58-Mw&t=1574s) Reframing screen management as an environmental challenge allows parents to replace guilt with intentional, low-stakes summer experiments and device-free zones. - [27:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7M3PZ58-Mw&t=1670s) Adopting parental vulnerability about personal screen struggles fosters collaborative rule-making and prevents adolescents from reacting with defensive shutdown.

## Detailed walkthrough ### [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7M3PZ58-Mw&t=0s) Introduction of Dr. Jenny Radesky

Host Juan Ochoa, international public relations representative for the Michigan News office, introduces Dr. Jenny Radesky on the *Michigan Minds* podcast. Dr. Radesky is an associate professor of pediatrics and the director of the Division of Developmental-Behavioral Pediatrics at the University of Michigan Medical School. Her clinical practice centers on children diagnosed with autism, ADHD, and learning disabilities, while her research laboratory investigates how young children and their parents interact with mobile and digital technology, the dynamics of parent-child relationships, and early self-regulation development.

Radesky holds several notable policy and leadership positions: - Author of the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) policy statements *"Media and Young Minds"* and *"Digital Advertising to Children"*. - Medical Director of the Center of Excellence on Social Media and Youth Mental Health. - Leader of the first behavioral team at the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) from 2024 to 2025, assisting regulatory teams in enforcing child well-being protections.

---

[01:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7M3PZ58-Mw&t=69s) The "Easy Button" of Summer Screen Time

Turning to summer vacation, Ochoa asks what risks parents should monitor as children encounter unstructured days. Dr. Radesky observes that summer naturally invites relaxation, fun, and looser routines. Without the rigid framework of school or structured camps, vast pockets of free time open up. However, these hours are easily swallowed by screens because technology functions as "the easy button." Digital platforms are ubiquitous, frictionless, highly accessible, and immediately pleasurable.

In contrast, non-digital childhood activities require navigating friction: running outside, enduring heat, bugs, and sweat, or using one's own imagination when boredom strikes. Pushing through this discomfort is fundamental for building autonomy, resilience, and problem-solving skills rather than passively letting technology dictate behavior. Radesky encourages parents not to feel guilty, but to act intentionally by balancing tech with non-tech pursuits: - Recognize that technology platforms are engineered to capture attention non-stop because "it makes more money that way." - Define family priorities and core traditions (such as swimming, cooking together, or hiking outdoors). - Establish clear boundaries so the entire break does not vanish into passive movie watching and endless video games.

---

[03:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7M3PZ58-Mw&t=193s) Tapping into Parental Nostalgia to Break the Digital Loop

Ochoa reflects on growing up without smartphones, reminiscing about getting dirty in the mud and playing dodgeball. Dr. Radesky encourages parents to actively draw upon their own childhood nostalgia. Remembering the messy, silly, low-tech games of previous decades can inspire engaging screen-free options for kids today—such as drawing with sidewalk chalk, climbing trees, playing stickball, listening to old jazz vinyl records, or dusting off retro board games.

Radesky shares a personal childhood favorite called "running bases," an informal street game where her father and uncle threw a tennis ball back and forth while neighborhood children scrambled to sprint between bases without getting tagged out. She notes that adults today frequently find themselves trapped in an exhausting loop of work deadlines, digital feeds, and daily tasks. Reconnecting with childhood play serves as an accessible spark to disrupt that automated routine and introduce creative, novel experiences to family life.

---

[04:43](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7M3PZ58-Mw&t=283s) Classroom Phone Bans and School Policies

Addressing state-level initiatives to restrict or ban cell phones in schools, Ochoa asks whether it is already too late to enforce such rules. Dr. Radesky firmly disagrees that "we can't put this genie back in the bottle," pointing out that devices previously crept into schools simply because they were pocket-sized and policies lagged behind adoption. The resulting classroom environment created substantial challenges: - Surges in cyberbullying, fights organized via social media, and photos taken of students without consent. - Chronic teacher fatigue caused by constantly competing with screens for basic attention and engagement. - Distractions not only from personal smartphones (such as TikTok feeds and Snapchat notifications), but also from educational technology (edtech) devices provided by schools.

Radesky references emerging research co-led by University of Michigan faculty member Dr. Brian Jacob, which examined the implementation of locking pouches (such as Yondr pouches). The study found that while pouches did not immediately correlate with higher letter grades or fewer bullying incidents, they made phone management significantly easier and more feasible for classroom educators.

```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: Balanced School Phone Policy Framework accDescr: A flowchart illustrating the inputs, policy strategies, and supportive disciplinary models for classroom phone bans.

subgraph Inputs ["School Challenges"] A["Smartphone & EdTech Distractions"] B["Cyberbullying & Unauthorized Photos"] C["Teacher Fatigue & Disengagement"] end

subgraph Strategies ["Policy Implementation"] D["Physical Storage<br/>(e.g., Yondr Pouches / Dedicated Lockers)"] E["Preserving Human Spaces<br/>(Empathy, Listening, Collaboration)"] F["Parental Dialogue & Emergency Protocols"] end

subgraph Support ["Developmental Response to Misuse"] G{"Dysregulated Device Use"} G --> H["Assess Underlying Needs<br/>(Anxiety, Academic Struggles)"] G --> I["Provide Emotional Coping Skills<br/>(Avoid Punitive Suspensions)"] end

Inputs --> Strategies Strategies --> Support ```

Radesky emphasizes that in an era of artificial intelligence, schools must prioritize irreplaceable "human spaces" where students cultivate soft skills like empathy, deep listening, and collaboration. Furthermore, effective policies must address parental safety concerns—especially regarding emergency and school shooting communication—by collecting community feedback. Finally, she cautions against overly punitive enforcement: - Students who compulsively violate phone rules should not simply be suspended. - Dysregulated phone habits are frequently symptoms of underlying anxiety, emotional distress, or academic disengagement that require targeted skill-building rather than blunt punishment.

---

[09:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7M3PZ58-Mw&t=555s) Teen Ingenuity, Decoy Phones, and Autonomy

When Ochoa asks what stops students from simply placing a "decoy phone" into a pouch, Radesky laughs and confirms that students already employ this exact workaround. High schoolers are developmentally wired for peer affiliation and independence, leading them to actively subvert device restrictions: - Purchasing cheap burner or decoy phones to hand over while keeping their real device hidden. - Forcibly breaking into, hacking, or destroying Yondr pouches. - Voicing strong pushback against being treated like toddlers, insisting they deserve enough trust to keep their phones in their lockers independently.

[09:59](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7M3PZ58-Mw&t=599s) Tech Company Responsibility and Making Devices "Boring" During School

When schools try to implement phone bans, students frequently find clever workarounds—such as handing in a dummy phone while secretly keeping a second one in their pocket. Radesky acknowledges that while a determined subset of kids will always be driven to hack past whatever barriers adults put in place, the underlying burden should not fall solely on educators or parents. Instead, tech and hardware companies bear a direct responsibility to introduce systemic friction and deliberately make devices far more boring during instructional hours.

Some platforms have already piloted effective mechanisms to enforce these boundaries. Pinterest, for instance, detects when a user is a teenager accessing the service during the school day and serves an interface blocking access with a message encouraging them to return later and focus on school. Establishing this kind of friction creates positive social norms around digital boundaries. Similarly, device manufacturers have built-in tools that could serve as broader defaults; Apple Watches feature a dedicated "Schooltime" mode that filters out distracting notifications and locks access to games during class hours. Implementing robust, automated defaults across platforms would dramatically reduce the continuous temptation pulling at students' attention.

```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: School Hour Device Friction accDescr: Visual flow showing how device and platform level guardrails restrict teen access during school hours. subgraph SchoolHours["School Hours Active"] A["Teen Device Access"] --> B{"Platform & Device Defaults"} B -->|"Social Media (e.g., Pinterest)"| C["Block screen: 'Come back later, focus in school'"] B -->|"Hardware (e.g., Apple Watch Schooltime)"| D["Filter notifications & disable games"] end C --> E["Friction reduces temptation & establishes social norms"] D --> E ```

[11:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7M3PZ58-Mw&t=675s) The Reality of Age Verification and Algorithmic Feeds

Restricting what a child encounters on a personal device is profoundly complicated by the inaccuracies baked into account setups. In many households, hardware is shared across family members and registered under an adult's profile, meaning the operating system never defaults to basic child safety protections. Furthermore, children routinely misreport their birth dates when creating independent accounts. Radesky notes that when asking young patients how old they claimed to be when launching their TikTok accounts years earlier, they commonly admit they have no recollection and simply plugged in an arbitrary adult age—guessing they were 25, or in one child's case, selecting 65. When a platform believes an account holder is a mature adult, its recommendation system will serve adult content without restraint.

Even when platforms like TikTok and Instagram introduce parental controls, content filters, or movie-style ratings aimed at filtering out sexual or violent material, empirical research shows these filters regularly fail. For instance, violent, trending news items—such as widely circulated videos of assassinations or violent altercations—frequently land in teenagers' feeds despite the users never searching for or requesting them.

The structural culprit behind this exposure is the engagement-based feed:

- **Predictive Optimization:** Rather than serving what is healthy or explicitly requested, algorithms predict what will hold a user's attention based on previous habits (such as harmless animal videos) or high emotional arousal. - **Emotionally Evocative Traps:** Feeds heavily amplify polarizing, sensational, or disturbing material—including combat footage, school fights, cyberbullying, severe beauty ideals tied to eating disorders, and political misinformation. - **The Shift from Chronological Feeds:** In the early 2010s, platforms like Facebook operated on simple chronological feeds showing posts strictly from accounts a person intentionally followed. The transition to engagement ranking stripped parents of control, exposing kids to whatever inflammatory media is trending across the broader internet.

[14:55](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7M3PZ58-Mw&t=895s) Curating Media Diets: Human Curation vs. User-Generated "AI Slop"

To counter the unpredictable risks of algorithmic feeds, Radesky recommends starting early with human-curated platforms where dedicated editors review the media library. For toddlers and preschoolers, environments like PBS Kids, Disney+, *Sesame Street*, and Nickelodeon provide safe ecosystems where bizarre or distressing media cannot slip into view. That same human-selected standard extends to broadcast television and vetted subscription streaming services throughout middle childhood.

As children reach adolescence, Radesky emphasizes the overlooked developmental value of feature films and long-form storytelling over fragmented internet video clips:

- **Narrative Complexity:** Long-form movies feature complete dramatic story arcs, rich character development, and nuanced emotional highs and lows that short-form video cannot replicate. - **Facilitating Hard Conversations:** Well-scripted films handle delicate, mature themes—such as substance use, sex, and social inequality—with narrative care, offering parents an organic springboard to discuss difficult societal topics with their kids. - **Screenwriting vs. Unfiltered Creators:** Unlike professional media developed by writers, directors, and editors, solo online influencers often turn on a camera and broadcast unfiltered thoughts designed purely for shock value or flashiness. - **Avoiding Algorithmic Waste:** Engaging with scripted, long-form stories protects young people from the flood of low-quality user-generated content and synthetic "AI slop" that dominates social video feeds.

[17:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7M3PZ58-Mw&t=1040s) "Dumb" Starter Phones and Guardrails on the App Store

When outfitting a child with their very first phone, parents often struggle with the sudden leap from complete disconnect to a pocket supercomputer. While the market previously presented a stark binary between an old-fashioned flip phone and an open smartphone, newer starter devices—such as Gabb Wireless or Bark phones—offer tailored transition phases, though their upfront costs and specialized monthly service plans make them inaccessible for every family budget.

If a family chooses to give their child a standard smartphone, Radesky strongly advises configuring it to be "as dumb as possible" from day one. Parents can have a transparent conversation explaining that the phone will deliberately be boring: limited to phone calls, text messaging, maps, and a basic camera app, with strict bans on mobile web browsers and unrestricted selfie snapping. Crucially, the app store must be placed behind administrative parental permissions. Because app marketplaces operate with minimal age-gating, children treat them like an endless candy shop: - Pediatric tracking studies have discovered full gambling applications on teenagers' mobile devices. - Research monitoring toddler tablet usage has uncovered violent shooter games installed without parental awareness.

Radesky emphasizes that implementing strict digital guardrails at the beginning and progressively easing restrictions as a child demonstrates maturity is dramatically easier than attempting to reign in unbounded access after bad habits have formed.

[19:24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7M3PZ58-Mw&t=1164s) Intentional Usage, Scaffolding Time Limits, and Low Data Plans

Establishing healthy device habits requires treating a smartphone as an intentional tool rather than an omnipresent pacifier for boredom. Sharing her own household approach, Radesky recounts when her eldest child received his first phone in eighth grade at age fourteen. Unsure of the ideal balance, the family initially experimented with a one-hour daily limit. When that proved slightly too restrictive for completing necessary tasks, they expanded it to two hours, which provided a manageable balance.

To reinforce intentional habits, the family paired these time boundaries with a constrained cellular data plan:

- **Eliminating "Filler" Screen Habits:** Low mobile data prevents children from habitually pulling out their devices to scroll games or watch videos while waiting at the bus stop or standing in lines. - **Normalizing Boredom:** Setting technical boundaries reinforces the idea that moments of downtime should be filled with reading a book, observing surroundings, or independent thought, rather than defaulting to quick digital hits. - **Rejecting the Phone as "Snack Food":** Devices should be reserved for concrete functions—such as chatting with peers or checking schedules for sports teams—preventing them from becoming a constant digital companion consumed mindlessly whenever boredom strikes.

[20:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7M3PZ58-Mw&t=1240s) Default Time Limits and Managing the Habit Loop

Dr. Jenny Radesky highlights how modern screen use trains the brain into reflexive dependency, cementing a habit loop where a child immediately thinks, "Oh, I need it. Oh, I'm bored." To interrupt this automatic reaching for screens, she advises parents to lean into time-based restrictions and specific time-of-day settings.

Establishing locked windows during school hours and at bedtime—shutting down device functionality past 9:00 p.m. or 10:00 p.m. for everything except emergency calls—removes the daily renegotiation. These settings create clear defaults so children no longer expect their phones to remain by their sides every single minute of the day.

[21:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7M3PZ58-Mw&t=1276s) Australia’s Under-16 Social Media Ban: Workarounds and Marginalized Youth

When asked about Australia's minimum-age legislation restricting social media for kids under 16, Radesky notes that the Australian eSafety Commissioner proactively partnered with the Stanford Social Media Lab to track outcomes before and after the law's enactment. While broad well-being datasets are still pending, early findings reveal that motivated teenagers who managed multiple accounts readily bypassed current age-verification tools to retain access to Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube.

```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: Systemic impacts of youth social media bans accDescr: Diagram tracing the effects of banning under-16 social media access on young people. subgraph Ban["Legislative Policy"] A["Under-16 Social Media Ban"] end subgraph Impacts["Immediate Repercussions"] A --> B["Motivated Teens Find Workarounds"] A --> C["Loss of Online Identity Communities"] C --> D["Spike in Crisis Hotline Calls"] C --> E["Potential Migration to AI Chatbots"] end subgraph Needs["Systemic Solution"] D --> F["Algorithmic Redesign over Total Bans"] E --> F end ```

The data also showed an immediate, measurable spike in calls to emergency mental health hotlines following the ban. For marginalized youth—including LGBTQ+ teens, racial and ethnic minorities, or those lacking local peer support—social media often acts as an essential lifeline to find community and self-expression. Radesky characterizes this environment as a profound double-edged sword: teens seeking affirming representation were simultaneously exposed to heightened harassment and toxic hate speech. Rather than solving this algorithmic design problem, outright bans cut off access before safer human connection alternatives were fully secured, even though Australia attempted to mitigate the fallout by expanding phone hotlines and gaming-based mental health support.

- The Stanford Social Media Lab is actively monitoring the longitudinal effects of Australia's age threshold. - Existing age-verification tech remains porous, failing to reliably block determined adolescents. - Marginalized teens experience social media as both an essential identity sanctuary and a vector for harassment driven by feed algorithms.

[24:31](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7M3PZ58-Mw&t=1471s) The Lure of Anthropomorphic AI Chatbots

A growing concern following social media crackdowns is that vulnerable teens will substitute online platforms with conversational AI chatbots. These chatbots utilize sophisticated anthropomorphism to mimic empathy—uttering statements like, "Oh, I'm so sorry you feel that way"—even though they possess no consciousness, self-awareness, or emotional capacity.

For an isolated adolescent craving human connection, a conversational agent that never grows impatient can feel deeply validating, creating a powerful, potentially addictive bond where the youth believes, "this thing understands me." Radesky cautions that while the United States actively debates similar age restrictions, outright prohibitions overlook how young teens can safely experience culture and peer camaraderie. She emphasizes that reforming platform design and feed architecture is far more effective than an absolute ban.

[26:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7M3PZ58-Mw&t=1574s) The Snack Conveyor Belt: Reframing Screen Time as a Systems Issue

Addressing parents directly, Radesky urges caregivers to stop treating digital struggles as individual parenting failures. Technology companies have engineered an algorithmic digital ecosystem explicitly optimized to monetize time and engagement. She illustrates this dilemma through an evocative nutritional analogy: parenting a child around devices today is like trying to teach healthy eating habits while a conveyor belt of ultra-palatable junk food continuously hurtles snacks toward their mouths, forcing parents into the exhausting role of constantly halting the machine.

Rather than succumbing to guilt, families can reclaim agency by running small, low-stakes summer experiments. Radesky advises parents to carve out device-free sanctuary spaces—such as phone-free car rides—or shift away from algorithmic recommendation feeds toward human-curated media.

```mermaid flowchart LR accTitle: Reframing parent-child screen negotiations accDescr: Flow comparing an ineffective deficit approach to a strength-based collaborative dialogue. subgraph Deficit["Deficit Lens (Ineffective)"] D1["'You're addicted to your phone'"] --> D2["Defensiveness and Shutdown"] end subgraph Strength["Strength-Based Lens (Recommended)"] S1["'I'm struggling to disconnect too'"] --> S2["Collaborative Dialogue"] S2 --> S3["Shared Family Rules"] end ```

[27:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7M3PZ58-Mw&t=1670s) Collaborative Boundaries and Cultivating Human Skills

To prevent adolescents from shutting down defensively, Radesky emphasizes discarding moralistic, judgmental accusations like, "You're addicted to your phone." Instead, parents should adopt genuine vulnerability by admitting their own tech struggles: "I'm struggling with me detaching from my phone. How does that feel for you?" This invites collective decision-making, where children actively negotiate family rules and hold parents accountable for their screen habits as well.

Crucially, removing technology creates an emptiness that must be intentionally filled with rich real-world experiences. In an era dominated by artificial intelligence, safeguarding essential human skills requires leaning into conversational depth, unstructured play, reading physical books, and spending time in communal spaces like libraries and public pools. Radesky encourages parents to replace the prevailing deficit lens with a strength-based approach, taking manageable baby steps toward reconnection rather than believing they have ruined their children.

## Notable quotes > [01:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7M3PZ58-Mw&t=69s) it makes more money that way — Dr. Jenny Radesky

> [04:43](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7M3PZ58-Mw&t=283s) we can't put this genie back in the bottle — Dr. Jenny Radesky

> [09:59](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7M3PZ58-Mw&t=599s) Come back later, focus in school

> [11:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7M3PZ58-Mw&t=675s) I have no idea. I started it five years ago. I probably said I was 25. — Dr. Jenny Radesky

> [17:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7M3PZ58-Mw&t=1040s) as dumb as possible — Dr. Jenny Radesky

> [20:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7M3PZ58-Mw&t=1240s) Oh, I need it. Oh, I'm bored. — Dr. Jenny Radesky

> [24:31](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7M3PZ58-Mw&t=1471s) Oh, I'm so sorry you feel that way

> [24:31](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7M3PZ58-Mw&t=1471s) this thing understands me

> [27:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7M3PZ58-Mw&t=1670s) You're addicted to your phone

> [27:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7M3PZ58-Mw&t=1670s) I'm struggling with me detaching from my phone. How does that feel for you? — Dr. Jenny Radesky

## Mentioned American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP), Apple Watch, Bark, Center of Excellence on Social Media and Youth Mental Health, Digital Advertising to Children, Disney+, Dr. Brian Jacob, Dr. Jenny Radesky, eSafety Commissioner (Australia), Facebook, Federal Trade Commission (FTC), Gabb Wireless, Instagram, Juan Ochoa, Media and Young Minds, Michigan Minds, Nickelodeon, PBS Kids, Pinterest, Sesame Street, Snapchat, Stanford Social Media Lab, TikTok, University of Michigan Medical School, Yondr, YouTube

## Video description Jenny Radesky, is associate professor of Pediatrics and Director of the Division of Developmental Behavioral Pediatrics at the University of Michigan Medical School. Her clinical work focuses on children with autism, ADHD, and learning disabilities, while her research lab examines how young children and parents use mobile and interactive technology, parent-child relationships, and child self-regulation.

Radesky joins the Michigan Minds podcast to discuss the hidden design forces that make modern technology difficult for families to manage, the limits of classroom phone bans, and what parents can actually do to reclaim summer. She also explores why she sees the struggle over screen time not as a parenting failure, but as a systemic problem—and what it would take for tech companies to change.

How hard is it to restrict what your child sees on his or her device?

It depends on if you have been honest about the child's age on their device. And here are a couple of ways that can be difficult. Sometimes devices are shared between different family members and they just have the account under the parent. That device might not default to child safety settings.

Another thing about accuracy and honesty of age is I have asked so many of my patients, how old did you say you were when you started that TikTok account? They will be like, I have no idea. I started it five years ago. I probably said I was 25. One kid told me, he always says he is 65 or something.

[Source](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7M3PZ58-Mw)

中文简报

屏幕使用时间：争夺儿童注意力的拉锯战 Jenny Radesky博士重新审视了屏幕时间的争端，认为这并非个别家庭育儿方式的失败，而是科技平台为了不间断获取注意力和牟利而精心设计的系统性挑战。她考察了校园手机限制令以及各国的社交媒体禁令，指出有强烈动机的青少年能够轻易绕过技术屏障，而一刀切的禁令可能会在无意中伤害边缘化青少年，或将他们推向拟人化AI聊天机器人。为了缓解这些风险，Radesky主张增加设备层面的阻力，比如配置限制流量和锁定应用商店的入门手机，并优先选择人工精选媒体而非算法信息流。最终，她鼓励家庭用协同制定界限来取代惩罚性质的指责，利用父母一代的怀旧情结，有意识地用真实世界的生动联结来填补不碰屏幕的时光。屏幕时间带来的挑战源于系统性的高参与度机制设计，而非育儿能力的不足；其运作方式就像一条源源不断输送高度迎合喜好内容的传送带，旨在将青少年的注意力转化为商业利益。 (26:14) 课堂设备禁令和锁屏收纳袋减轻了教师的疲劳感，但科技公司需要在上课时间实施自动化的平台级阻力，以有效遏制学生的违规绕过行为。 (9:59) 对澳大利亚16岁以下人群社交媒体禁令的早期监测显示，有强烈意愿的青少年可以轻松绕过年龄核验，而紧急心理健康热线接到受影响青少年的求助电话则立即激增。 (21:16) 家长控制和安全默认设置经常失效，因为普遍存在的年龄虚报导致推荐算法将儿童视为成年人，并向其推送未经请求的高刺激性内容。 (11:15)

Reading summary

Pediatrician and researcher Dr. Jenny Radesky argues that youth screen struggles are driven primarily by engagement-optimized platform architectures rather than parental failure, requiring structural design guardrails, institutional friction, and deliberate offline scaffolding rather than moralistic blame or blunt prohibitions. Algorithmic Feeds and Systemic Monetization (11:15) Radesky reframes digital challenges as a systems issue rather than individual parenting deficits, comparing modern device management to teaching healthy eating while an automated conveyor belt continuously hurtles ultra-palatable junk food at children. Digital platforms are deliberately engineered to capture non-stop attention because engagement drives monetization. The shift from early chronological feeds to algorithmic predictive optimization has stripped parents of control, routinely trapping youth in high-arousal media loops that amplify polarizing news, violent altercations, eating disorder content, and political misinformation regardless of whether the user requested it. Furthermore, technical guardrails and content filters regularly fail due to fundamental gaps in age verification. Many family devices operate under adult profiles, and youth routinely enter arbitrary adult ages when opening accounts. When platforms mistakenly categorize minors as adults, recommendation algorithms deliver mature, unrestricted content directly into their feeds. School Boundaries and Platform Friction (4:43) Classroom device infiltration has heightened cyberbullying, unauthorized photography, and chronic teacher fatigue. While high schoolers developmentally prioritize autonomy and often subvert restrictions using decoy burner phones or broken pouches, Radesky cites research co-led by the University of Michigan's Dr. Brian Jacob showing that physical storage pouches meaningfully streamline device management for educators, even if they do not immediately boost letter grades. However, Radesky cautions schools against responding with punitive suspensions, explaining that compulsive device use often signals underlying anxiety, distress, or academic disengagement that requires skill-building. She argues that the enforcement burden cannot rest entirely on teachers and parents; hardware and tech firms must introduce automated friction during instructional hours, citing features like Apple Watch's 'Schooltime' mode and Pinterest's school-hour access blocks as models that make devices boring and protect collaborative human spaces. Limits of Bans and Chatbot Displacement (21:16) Evaluating legislative efforts like Australia's under-16 social media ban, Radesky highlights early data from the Stanford Social Media Lab indicating that determined teenagers readily evade age checks, while emergency mental health hotline calls surged following implementation. For marginalized adolescents, such as LGBTQ+ or minority youth lacking local support, online networks serve as essential identity lifelines, even though recommendation feeds simultaneously expose them to toxic hate speech. Radesky views blunt bans as an inadequate substitute for algorithmic redesign. A secondary consequence of strict platform bans is the migration of vulnerable adolescents to anthropomorphic conversational AI chatbots. These agents simulate empathy and patience, which can foster potentially addictive emotional attachments in lonely youth who believe the software understands them. Radesky stresses that platform architecture reform remains far safer and more effective than outright bans that push teens toward synthetic substitutes. Scaffolding Starter Devices and Curated Media (17:20) To counter digital dependency at home, Radesky advises parents outfitting a child with a starter phone to configure it to be 'as dumb as possible.' Restricting features to voice calls, text messaging, maps, and basic cameras—while locking app stores behind administrative permissions—prevents unregulated downloads; pediatric studies have previously discovered full gambling apps on teen phones and violent shooters on toddler tablets. Enforcing constrained cellular data plans and time-based device shutoffs at bedtime eliminates filler scrolling and normalizes boredom as an opportunity for independent thought. Caregivers can also replace fragmented internet clips and synthetic 'AI slop' by prioritizing human-curated media libraries for younger children and long-form narrative films for teens, which provide character depth and springboards for complex family discussions. Rather than using accusatory addiction labels that trigger defensive shutdowns, Radesky encourages parents to model vulnerability regarding their own screen habits, negotiating shared rules while reintroducing low-tech, nostalgic play to rebuild real-world connection. Radesky emphasizes that digital well-being requires systemic platform reform alongside empathetic family boundaries. Rather than expecting perfection or imposing total bans, parents and educators must focus on scaffolding intentional habits, reducing algorithmic exposure, and actively protecting the non-digital spaces where core human capacities develop.

Source quotes

[1:09] Dr. Jenny Radesky: it makes more money that way [4:43] Dr. Jenny Radesky: we can't put this genie back in the bottle [9:59] Come back later, focus in school [11:15] Dr. Jenny Radesky: I have no idea. I started it five years ago. I probably said I was 25. [17:20] Dr. Jenny Radesky: as dumb as possible [20:40] Dr. Jenny Radesky: Oh, I need it. Oh, I'm bored. [24:31] Oh, I'm so sorry you feel that way [24:31] this thing understands me [27:50] You're addicted to your phone [27:50] Dr. Jenny Radesky: I'm struggling with me detaching from my phone. How does that feel for you?

Original transcript

[0:00] [music] [0:04] Welcome to the Michigan Minds podcast [0:06] where we explore the wealth of knowledge [0:07] from faculty experts at the University [0:09] of Michigan. I am Huana Choa, [0:12] international public relations [0:13] representative for the Michigan news [0:15] office. I'm pleased to welcome Dr. Jenny [0:18] Redeski, associate professor of [0:20] pediatrics and director of the division [0:22] of developmental behavior pediatrics at [0:24] the University of Michigan Medical [0:26] School. Dr. Redeski's clinical [music] [0:28] work focuses on children with autism, [0:30] ADHD, and learning disabilities. Her [0:33] research examines how young children and [0:35] parents [music] use mobile and [0:37] interactive technology, the role of [0:39] parent child relationships, and how [0:41] children develop self-regulation in an [0:43] increasingly [music] digital world. She [0:45] authored the American Academy of [0:46] Pediatrics policy statements, [music] [0:48] media and young minds, and digital [0:50] advertising to children. She is also the [0:52] medical director of the center for [0:54] excellence on social media and youth [0:56] mental health. From 2024 to 2025, [0:58] [music] she led the first behavioral [1:00] team at the Federal Trade Commission, [1:02] helping teams enforce cases related to [1:04] child well-being. Welcome, Dr. Roeski. [1:07] >> Hello. Thanks for having me. [1:09] >> With the endless days of summer just [1:11] around the corner, what are some of the [1:12] things that parents should watch out [1:15] when it comes to their children's screen [1:16] time? Yeah, summer's a unique time when [1:19] it comes to kids in media because it's [1:21] when we want to relax more. We want to [1:23] have more fun, let things loose a little [1:25] bit. There's less structure. Kids are [1:27] not in school. Maybe they have some [1:29] camps, but you know, it's a time when uh [1:31] there's just more open time and free [1:33] time. That time can easily get filled [1:36] with technology because technology, as [1:38] parents have told me, is the easy [1:40] button. It is everywhere. It's all [1:43] around us. It's really easy for kids to [1:45] access. It's frictionless. It's [1:47] pleasurable. So sometimes it's what kids [1:50] prefer to do rather than the more [1:53] frictionful activities like go outside [1:56] and run around, figure something out [1:58] with your own brain. You know, kids may [2:01] say, "It's hot. It's sticky. There's [2:02] bugs outside. I don't know what to do." [2:04] and pushing past that friction is part [2:08] of of raising a kid with a little bit of [2:10] resilience or with their own uh agency [2:14] to figure out what they want to do, not [2:16] just do whatever tech is telling them to [2:18] do. So, it's a time when I want to [2:21] acknowledge it's harder to set some [2:24] limits around technology. Parents should [2:26] go easy on themselves, but really try to [2:28] be intentional about saying, I want my [2:30] kids to get a balance of different [2:32] activities. Some are going to have tech [2:35] up. We we can talk about what is quality [2:37] tech, good tech that you can feel better [2:39] about, but then set some boundaries. [2:43] Tech does not deserve to have our kids [2:45] time and attention all day or all [2:47] summer. It makes more money that way. [2:49] And that's why it's so hard to disengage [2:51] kids sometimes, but really setting some [2:54] intentions of what does our family love? [2:56] We love the outdoors. We love cooking [2:58] together. We love going to the swimming [3:00] pool. make that time and and set that [3:03] intention so that you stick with it and [3:05] it really will help you feel more [3:06] balanced than feeling like ah where did [3:08] our summer go? We just uh watched video [3:11] you know watched movies and played video [3:13] games. [3:13] >> Yes, I certainly remember those days [3:15] when I was a kid and and I'm glad I did [3:17] not grow up around cell phones like cuz [3:19] I do miss playing in the mud. [3:21] >> Yeah. And you know what parents should [3:23] tap into their own nostalgia or their [3:26] own thoughts about childhood. What did [3:27] you love to do? What are like the funny [3:32] and messy and silly things that really [3:35] made you feel like a kid? And when you [3:37] have the time, do that with your kids. [3:39] Teach them what it felt like to draw [3:41] >> with chalk or play stick ball or, you [3:45] know, some parents have told me what's [3:47] their nostalgia activities. They're [3:49] like, "We put on old jazz records or we [3:51] play old board games that I played as a [3:53] kid or we just go outside and climb [3:55] trees." So that's that's what to tap [3:57] into. [3:58] >> Yeah. I I miss dodgeball. We should [4:00] bring dodgeball back now. [laughter] [4:01] >> No, we played something called running [4:04] bases on my street where the the you [4:07] know my dad and my uncle would just [4:10] throw a tennis ball back and forth and [4:12] the kids had to run from one to the [4:13] other and if you got tagged you were out [4:15] and I don't know that was like our thing [4:18] that we were like come on let's all get [4:19] outside and play running bases. So, you [4:22] know, I I really encourage parents, we [4:23] all feel stuck in a loop right now of [4:26] work, tech, our feed, uh you know, all [4:30] of our daily uh tasks that we need to [4:33] do. You know, take a little break from [4:35] that and and often our childhood [4:37] memories are some of the spark that [4:39] helps us break from that loop and and [4:41] think of something novel and fun to do, [4:43] >> right? States are looking to limit or [4:46] prohibit cell phone use in in [4:47] classrooms. Is it a little too late for [4:50] that? [4:51] >> Well, let's think again about that idea [4:53] of like, does tech deserve to have our [4:55] kids time and attention through the [4:57] whole day? School is a time when we [5:01] really want our kids to be focusing, [5:03] engaging, [5:05] you know, joking with their friends or [5:08] really listening to the teacher and [5:09] really applying their brain. And so it's [5:12] a time when again tech kind of crept in [5:15] because uh personal devices like cell [5:18] phones are just really easy to put in [5:21] your pocket or have in your backpack and [5:22] and schools didn't have policies about [5:24] how to keep those out of sight and out [5:27] of mind. Uh and then there was data [5:30] showing that the more kids were using [5:32] smartphones uh in schools, the higher [5:34] the rates of cyber bullying. Kids were [5:37] taking pictures of each other without [5:39] consent and then it was used for [5:40] bullying or planning fights. Teachers [5:43] were exhausted. They were saying, "This [5:45] is a distraction I don't need to compete [5:48] with. It's hard enough to get, you know, [5:50] students engaged." So, uh, it did reach [5:54] a point these past couple years where [5:56] people said, "We need to do something [5:57] about this." So, I don't think it's past [6:00] the point where like, "Oh, we can't put [6:02] this genie back in the bottle." we could [6:04] be really smart about it and say what's [6:06] going to work. There was just research [6:09] released and um Dr. Jacob who is one of [6:12] our University of Michigan faculty, [6:14] Brian Jacob was one of the lead authors [6:16] finding that uh when they used pouches [6:19] like yonder pouches uh teachers felt [6:22] like it was easier to manage phones in [6:24] the classroom. Um it didn't it wasn't [6:27] correlated with improved grades uh or [6:30] bullying reports yet, but um it is at [6:34] least a a sign that it is feasible. It's [6:38] doable. I've heard lots of anecdotal [6:40] reports from teachers that they really [6:42] appreciate having less to compete with [6:46] in terms of attention. However, what we [6:49] also need to address is the edte devices [6:52] that kids are using that are another [6:54] source of distraction. So, if we're [6:56] going to be smart about it, we can say, [6:58] "All right, let's let's make a policy [7:01] where kids are not distracted with their [7:03] personal devices. They're not distracted [7:05] with edtech devices." And that may be [7:08] through the devices go in a certain [7:10] place that just won't be as much of a [7:12] temptation. Um, or there's clear [7:14] communication between the teacher and [7:16] say high school students of okay, here [7:18] are the times where I'm okay with you [7:20] having access to your device. Here's the [7:22] time when I really want you, you know, [7:24] to listen to me. Let's engage with each [7:25] other. I've heard experts around AI [7:29] especially talk about how in school we [7:31] need a lot of the human experience, [7:33] those human spaces to help kids build [7:37] the like soft skills of listening to [7:40] each other and empathy and [7:41] collaboration. AI can't do that. And [7:44] that's why schools even more now are [7:46] going to have to invest in those human [7:48] spaces and having, you know, a [7:51] distraction with your Snapchat [7:53] notifications or your Tik Tok feed is [7:56] just going to compete with that human [7:57] space. And so I am definitely in support [8:00] of schools having uh phone policies. I [8:03] think it's really important that it just [8:05] takes the community's voice into [8:08] account. I've heard lots of parents [8:09] worry about I want to access my kid. [8:11] what if there's a um you know an [8:13] emergency, a shooting, something else? [8:16] Parents need to feel heard as schools [8:18] are implementing these policies. And so [8:20] as as the Michigan uh state policies go [8:23] into effect, I just encourage school [8:25] districts to have times where families [8:29] can give feedback electronically or in [8:31] person and feel like okay, we have a [8:34] plan for how to respond to emergencies [8:36] and we also trust that um the schools [8:40] are going to implement these policies [8:41] without overly uh disciplining our kids. [8:44] I don't want my patients to get [8:46] suspended because they're have having [8:48] trouble controlling their phone use. I [8:50] see when kids are struggling to control [8:52] their phone use. Usually something else [8:54] is going on. They're really distracted [8:56] and not engaged in school. Maybe they [8:58] need more support in school or maybe [9:00] they feel really anxious and they need [9:02] some other emotion coping skills. So [9:04] take that take that uh disregulated [9:07] phone use in the kid as a sign of that [9:09] kid is struggling somehow. Let's figure [9:11] out what other skills and supports they [9:13] need. not just say put your phone down. [9:15] >> Right. Right. You know, you mentioned [9:17] the I forget what they're called. [9:18] >> Yonder. [9:20] >> What prevents students from getting a [9:22] decoy phone? And [9:23] >> oh, nothing. I mean, just whatever it [9:26] costs to get that decoy phone. So, that [9:28] those are the workarounds that we've [9:29] heard about from teens. So, [9:31] >> teens are smart and resourceful, right? [9:33] I really respect the teen brain. It is [9:35] so driven to connect with its peers and [9:37] to, you know, have some fun. And so, uh, [9:41] we've heard about teens trying to hack [9:43] their yonder pouches and get into them [9:45] or destroy them cuz they I've heard high [9:47] schoolers say, "I'm not a toddler. I [9:50] don't need to have my device like packed [9:53] away. Can you trust me that I'll just [9:55] keep it in my locker?" [9:56] >> Um, I've heard the burner phones, you [9:59] know, where you you hand in one phone, [10:01] but you actually have another. Um, [10:05] my response to that is, okay, yeah, [10:08] kids, some kids, uh, and it's often just [10:11] a a small group, but they're often going [10:13] to be very driven to hack through [10:15] whatever protections we've tried to [10:17] create. I think there's a huge [10:18] responsibility on the tech companies to [10:21] actually make phones more boring during [10:24] school hours. And so Pinterest is one [10:27] social media platform that actually has [10:29] made their their uh their interface, [10:32] their screen, if you try and access it [10:34] during school hours and they know you're [10:36] a teen, they'll say, come back later. We [10:38] want you to focus in school. [10:40] >> Oh, nice. [10:41] >> Right. Like that's a new social norm [10:43] that they can set to be like, you don't [10:44] need to be on Pinterest in the middle of [10:46] your school day, right? [10:47] >> You certainly don't need to be on [10:48] TikTok. Um so the tech companies could [10:52] add some friction there. The device [10:54] companies uh could also add more like uh [10:59] like Apple uh watches have like a school [11:01] time setting. So if your kid has an [11:03] Apple Watch, you can put it in school [11:05] mode and it'll filter notifications. You [11:09] can't access games. There's different [11:11] ways that there could be some default [11:12] settings that just make it less of a [11:14] temptation for kids. [11:15] >> Interesting. How hard is it to restrict [11:18] what your child sees on his or her [11:20] device? Well, so it depends on if you've [11:23] been honest about the child's age on [11:26] their device. And here's a couple of the [11:28] ways that that can be difficult. And I [11:30] don't mean, you know, honest or [11:32] accurate. It's more just sometimes [11:34] devices are shared between different [11:36] family members. And so they just have [11:37] the account under the parent and then [11:41] that device might not default to child [11:43] safety settings. Um, another thing about [11:47] accuracy and honesty of age is I've [11:50] asked so many of my patients, "How old [11:52] did you say you were when you started [11:54] that Tik Tok account?" And they'll be [11:55] like, "I have no idea. I started at 5 [11:58] years ago. I probably said I was 25." [12:01] One kid told me he's he always says he's [12:03] like 65 or something. So, why is that [12:06] important? If a social media platform [12:09] thinks you're an adult, they're going to [12:11] send you content for adults, [12:13] >> right? So now all the platforms are [12:17] trying to or most of them like the Tik [12:19] Toks and the Instagrams are trying to [12:21] filter out in a more age appropriate [12:23] way. Now there's research that suggests [12:26] some of these filters are not effective. [12:28] So as a parent, you still need to be [12:29] watching, but they're trying to use [12:32] things like movie ratings or content [12:34] filters like let's keep the very sexual [12:36] or violent or really upsetting content [12:39] out of kids feeds. Again, I say this [12:42] with a caveat of like that's not uh you [12:46] um actually effective a lot of the time. [12:49] I know so many teens who said, you know, [12:51] the Charlie Kirk assassination wound up [12:53] in their feed even though they did not [12:55] search for it, they did not ask for it. [12:57] So, when something is trending and [12:59] violent and upsetting, that is what gets [13:02] recommended in an engagementbased feed. [13:05] So, let me take a second to say what's [13:07] an engagement-based feed. It is a feed [13:10] that shows you what it predicts you're [13:13] likely to engage with. So, you might [13:16] engage with something because you've [13:17] engaged with it a lot before, like [13:19] kitten videos. You might engage with [13:22] something because it's extremely [13:23] emotionally evoking, right? So, it might [13:27] be something like a war video or a [13:31] bullying video or a fight video. Um, and [13:34] so misinformation can be highly engaging [13:39] even though it's not necessarily good [13:42] for you. Eating disorder content can be [13:44] highly emotionally evoking because it [13:47] shows all this these beauty ideals. So, [13:51] as I I've just kind of gone through [13:53] things that involve beauty, violence, [13:55] sex, uh you know, misinformation. These [13:59] things can trend and be sent to kids in [14:03] an engagementbased feed. What are the [14:05] alternative alternative feeds could be [14:08] chronological feed where you follow a [14:11] certain number of accounts and you just [14:12] get whatever they've posted. That's what [14:14] Facebook used to be uh in the early [14:17] 2010s before it uh was turned into more [14:22] of an engagement ranked an engagement [14:24] based feed. So that's one thing that [14:27] some of the laws are trying to do is to [14:29] address the feed. If you're a parent and [14:32] you want to manage the type of content [14:35] your kid sees, but they have a social [14:37] media platform or a gaming platform that [14:39] has an engagementbased feed, it's much [14:41] much harder to control what they see. [14:44] And there's a higher risk that they're [14:46] going to see something violent, sexy, [14:48] upsetting, or worrisome, or that might [14:51] trend their thoughts and ideas in a [14:54] direction you don't want. What else can [14:56] you do? I I say start early. like start [14:58] early with just trusted platforms where [15:00] you know a human has reviewed the [15:03] content on that platform. So something [15:06] like in early childhood PBS Kids, Disney [15:09] Plus, Sesame Street, you know, [15:12] Nickelodeon, these are kid-friendly [15:14] platforms, you're not going to have [15:16] random weird stuff show up on a feed. [15:19] And then in middle childhood, again, [15:21] some of those same streaming platforms. [15:23] Now, they cost money, but they do have [15:25] more of a human selecting and making [15:28] sure that all of this is is kind of [15:30] appropriate and rated for kids. Uh, [15:32] broadcast TV should do the same things. [15:35] And then once you get into the teen [15:37] years, movies and long- form content are [15:40] also really important parts of kids [15:42] media diets. I've heard some parents [15:44] say, "Oh, my kid can't sit for a whole [15:46] movie anymore." at those long stories of [15:49] a movie. The reason why they're great is [15:52] that they convey a whole story arc with [15:54] the ups and downs of the challenges. [15:56] They can convey so much more character [15:58] development, interesting story lines, so [16:02] many more ways that you can connect with [16:04] your kids, too, about an interesting [16:07] plot or a difficult conversation. like [16:10] if there's a a topic about sex or about [16:13] drugs or about uh a difficult societal [16:16] concept that you're like, I didn't know [16:17] how to talk to my kids about that. Those [16:19] often will show up in longer form [16:21] content and are treated in really um you [16:25] know, really well-written ways. Let's [16:29] contrast that for a second to a random [16:32] YouTuber or content creator who just [16:34] picks up the phone and says anything [16:36] that comes to mind and they haven't had [16:39] a screenwriter or a producer or an [16:41] editor. uh you know they certainly they [16:44] may edit to make their video very flashy [16:47] and uh but the content quality between [16:52] uh things that show up on a a social [16:55] media platform compared to a longer form [16:58] content that you can watch with your [16:59] kids. I really want parents to [17:01] understand that there's there's more [17:03] risks that come with the social media [17:06] platforms where you get more [17:07] userenerated content. I'm not saying [17:09] some user generated content isn't lovely [17:12] and hilarious, but you get more risks of [17:15] the garbage and the AI slop coming [17:17] through [17:18] >> on social media. [17:20] >> I think one of the things that the phone [17:22] companies should do is bring back the [17:25] those kid-friendly phones that only had [17:27] like call dad or call mom and pick up or [17:30] hang up. That's it. You know, no. Those [17:32] would be cheaper, too, because when [17:35] parents are trying to get their kids a [17:37] first device, what are their options? It [17:39] used to be, you know, 10 years ago, you [17:41] either had flip phone or smartphone and [17:43] nothing in between. [17:45] >> Now, there's been more attention to [17:46] this, so there's more starter phones [17:49] that might be like the Gab or the Bark [17:51] phone or um those also cost money to buy [17:55] this phone and then the extra plan that [17:57] comes with it. So, it's not realistic [17:59] for some families, but um I definitely [18:03] recommend that if if kids start with a [18:07] smartphone that parents make it as dumb [18:09] as possible. You start with it being [18:11] more boring and you can through the [18:14] parental controls make it and through [18:16] talking to your kid of course and say, [18:18] "Listen, this is going to be boring for [18:19] a while. This is going to be talk, text, [18:22] maps, maybe photos. If you don't go [18:25] selfie crazy, like we are not going to [18:29] have the internet, you know, and a [18:31] browser yet, we're going to start with [18:33] app store restrictions where the parents [18:36] okay everything you download. Kids are [18:38] curious to the app store. It's like a [18:40] candy shop for them. So, they will I [18:42] I've seen kids who download the weirdest [18:44] stuff onto their tablets. Um, and the [18:46] app stores are not really agegating yet. [18:50] So that is why you can get we've we've [18:53] tracked kids teenagers phones and found [18:55] gambling apps on their phones. We've [18:57] tracked toddlers tablets and found [19:00] shooter games [19:02] >> on their tablets. So that is why [19:04] starting with more restrictions on the [19:06] app store is absolutely fine and then [19:09] talk to your kids about okay when are [19:10] you ready and mature enough to make [19:12] decisions about what can be downloaded [19:14] or not. I always think starting with [19:16] more guardrails on the device is way and [19:20] and loosening them up over time is way [19:22] easier than trying to rain it in [19:23] afterwards [19:24] >> or spend more time outdoors with with [19:26] the kids instead of [19:28] >> sitting inside. Yeah. [19:29] >> I mean, that's another way to help your [19:32] first phone feel less overwhelming is to [19:35] say, "This is going to have some time [19:36] limits to start." You know, when my [19:39] 16-year-old got his first phone, he was [19:42] in 8th grade. He uh we were like I don't [19:46] know what the best time limit might be. [19:48] We started with an hour. He was like uh [19:50] I c I can't even like get a few things [19:52] done with only an hour. We expanded it [19:54] to two hours. That seemed like the right [19:56] fit for a while. Another thing we did is [19:59] we had a pretty low data plan. So we [20:01] were like [20:02] >> you're not going to just play games [20:03] while you're sitting waiting at the bus [20:05] stop. Like you're not going to do all [20:07] those filler [20:09] >> activities. Like if you're bored read a [20:11] book, right? Um so that's another thing [20:13] parents can do is say this phone is for [20:16] very intentional things you know [20:19] chatting with friends [20:22] um maybe following your if you have like [20:24] a sports team app or something you know [20:27] we we might let you play some age [20:29] appropriate games or uh something else [20:31] like that but it is not your constant [20:35] companion that you just your snack food [20:38] >> whenever you're bored cuz that again is [20:40] like training your mind to have this [20:42] habit of like, "Oh, I need it. Oh, I'm [20:45] bored." Um, and so that those are some [20:48] other timebased settings that parents [20:51] can set. And then the other really [20:52] crucial one is um time of day based [20:55] settings. So those school time hours [20:57] that we talked about before and then the [20:59] bedtime hours where it's just this phone [21:01] just won't work, you know, except for [21:03] emergencies, right? after you decide [21:06] 9:00 p.m. 10:00 p.m. Um, those are nice [21:10] default ways to just help your kid not [21:12] expect that phone at their side, you [21:15] know, every moment of the day. [21:16] >> Australia has implemented a social media [21:18] ban for kids under 16. What are you [21:20] hearing about how that's working? Is it [21:23] having a an intended effect? Yeah, what [21:26] was so brilliant about the e safety [21:30] commissioner in Australia is that she [21:33] was already working a lot with the [21:34] Stanford social media lab. So they [21:37] decided to do an evaluation project. So [21:40] that we have really great researchers [21:42] tracking how kids are doing uh before [21:46] and after this uh ban, this social media [21:50] minimum age act went into effect. And so [21:54] they uh we don't have outcomes yet on [21:57] youth well-being. What we do have [21:59] outcomes on is how many kids are still [22:01] accessing social media. Um so many kids [22:05] had several different accounts. And so [22:07] the really motivated teens who still [22:09] want their Instagram and Tik Tok uh and [22:12] YouTube accounts, they have they're [22:15] reporting that they've still found some [22:16] workarounds and they still have access. [22:18] So, what that tells me is that the age [22:21] verification tools that the companies [22:24] have started to use to try to identify, [22:26] okay, who's under 16, who do we need to [22:29] knock off the platform? Um, those tools [22:32] aren't perfect yet. I also heard that [22:35] there was an increase in calls to uh [22:39] like emergency mental health hotlines [22:42] after that law went into effect. And [22:46] this is the rationale why that they were [22:48] looking for that. We know that for [22:50] marginalized youth who don't have a lot [22:52] of social support in their in real world [22:56] context often go to social media to find [23:00] support. So it may be that they are a [23:03] minoritized race or ethnicity. They [23:05] might be LGBTQ plus. They might have [23:09] just struggles that they don't know how [23:11] to talk about with the people in their [23:14] lives. and therefore [23:16] social media became a space for them to [23:19] find their people or to express [23:20] themselves. Was that always the best [23:22] space? No. We heard from many of those [23:24] youth that it was a double-edged sword. [23:27] You'd go in trying to find a few [23:29] supportive people, but you would always [23:30] get you'd also get harassed way more. [23:33] So, uh, you know, I heard, uh, like gay [23:37] youth saying, "Well, I went in and I [23:39] found some affirming, you know, people [23:41] and content to help me know I was okay, [23:44] yet at the same time, I saw way more [23:46] hate speech." So, [23:48] >> that's an algorithm problem, right? [23:50] >> Right. That's a design problem. And so [23:52] if we could have safer spaces for kids [23:57] who are struggling to reach other real [23:59] humans, that's one thing that Australia [24:01] did before that social media ban went [24:04] into effect. They bumped up a lot of [24:07] their mental health resources, their [24:09] hotlines. They had gamingbased uh mental [24:12] health support where if you were [24:14] struggling or being harassed, you could [24:15] reach out to a real human. Um so anyway, [24:19] they did find that there was a peak and [24:21] a bump in outreach to those hotlines [24:24] when teens didn't have access to social [24:26] media. Um and uh what we're also worried [24:31] about is that teens are then going to AI [24:33] chatbots to seek that same feeling of [24:37] help and understanding because AI [24:40] chatbots are programmed to sound very [24:43] humanlike. the anthropomorphism [24:46] that they put in a chatbot that might be [24:47] like, "Oh, I'm so sorry you feel that [24:50] way." Even though a chatbot does not [24:53] have a, you know, a sense of self to [24:56] say, "I," they don't have feelings. So, [24:59] they can't really feel sorry, but it [25:01] sounds so real. And so for someone who's [25:04] struggling to have a chatbot talk to you [25:06] in a way that people in your real life [25:08] are not talking to you, that's why [25:10] that's so potentially addictive for kids [25:13] is it's like, oh, this this thing [25:16] understands me. So that is the other [25:18] thing that needs to be tracked. I [25:19] haven't seen data on it of whether kids [25:21] are leaving social media and going to AI [25:25] instead. [25:26] Um, [25:28] you know, I think in the US, uh, there's [25:31] been lots of debate about whether the [25:33] same sort of social media ban should [25:36] take effect. And it's it's really [25:38] complicated because young teens do [25:41] struggle more on social media, but at [25:44] the same time, there's there's [25:46] definitely healthy ways for a 14 or a [25:48] 15year-old to have some, you know, [25:51] limited social media interactions, to [25:54] connect with their peers, connect with [25:56] culture. uh that really if the design [25:59] was better and not not take it away [26:02] altogether, but if they could really [26:03] redo the design, I think we'd have a lot [26:05] fewer harms. [26:07] >> Dr. Rodeski, this is a very interesting [26:09] conversation, but we have run out of [26:10] time. What would you want our listeners [26:12] to take away from from all of this? [26:14] >> I think that parents are often they'll [26:18] often put the blame on their own [26:19] shoulders when they're dealing with a [26:21] parenting issue. Um, I want them to see [26:24] this as a systems issue where the design [26:28] of the digital ecosystem around kids [26:30] really makes our jobs as parents [26:33] unnecessarily hard, right? It's it's [26:36] hard to help our kids be healthy eaters. [26:38] But imagine if they had a um just a [26:41] treadmill, a a conveyor belt of snack [26:45] foods like coming at them all the time [26:48] and we had to stop that conveyor belt. [26:50] Like that's what it feels like. trying [26:52] to to put limits and and try to get good [26:55] content on platforms that are [26:57] intentionally designed because they make [26:59] money off of our time and engagement, [27:02] especially with their algorithmically [27:03] driven feeds. So, my main message to [27:07] parents is carve out times for the [27:10] things that you and your family really [27:12] care about. The outdoors, the, you know, [27:15] time to play with them, time to laugh [27:17] and be together. Even if you just do [27:19] that for small amounts this summer as [27:21] like it's going to be car rides, let's [27:24] put down our phones, it's going to be [27:26] switching away from an algorithmic [27:28] platform to more of a human curated [27:30] platform. Um, those small things, do [27:34] them as experiments. They're hard. Just [27:36] know it's going to have to be a family [27:38] effort that you talk about and talk [27:40] about it in a nonmoral, non-judgmental [27:44] way, okay? Because kids will shut down [27:45] if they hear us coming in hot and saying [27:48] like, "You're addicted to your phone." [27:49] Right? [27:50] >> So instead, come at it like, "H, this [27:53] feels hard. I'm struggling with me [27:56] detaching from my phone. How does that [27:58] feel for you?" Ask more questions, [28:02] fewer lectures, [28:04] more participation with kids. Like, what [28:06] rules should we make? How much do you [28:08] want me to put my f own? Right? do that [28:11] collective decision- making. Try to set [28:14] some boundaries. Go easy on yourself. [28:17] Um, but remember, if you're going to [28:19] reduce your your tech time in your [28:21] family, you're going to need to fill [28:22] that space with something else. So, [28:26] generate ideas from your friends, your [28:27] family, your kids of like what do we [28:29] want to, you know, fill that time with [28:31] and make it human time, right? This is [28:33] the age of AI when everyone's worried [28:36] about AI taking our jobs or taking our [28:39] kids, you know, in terms of [28:40] relationships with chat bots. The more [28:43] we can imbue human skills in kids, how [28:46] do we do that? Conversation, play, [28:48] relationships, think for yourself, read [28:51] a book, um, you know, find the places in [28:55] your community like libraries or pools [28:57] where you're like, "Ah, this this feels [28:59] like I'm connected with my kids. We're [29:01] doing human stuff. [29:03] Uh if you if you have that mindset, [29:05] it'll feel much more doable than feeling [29:08] like, "Oh no, I've ruined my family's [29:11] screen time." You know, uh we're so much [29:15] more on a deficit model about this [29:17] topic. And I'd much rather you have that [29:19] strengthbased lens of like, "All right, [29:21] we can do this. It's going to be it's [29:23] going to be a challenge. We're going to [29:24] do small baby steps, but it's going to [29:27] be doable." [29:32] Thank you for listening to this episode [29:33] of Michigan Minds produced by Michigan [29:36] News, a division of the university's [29:38] office of the vice [music] president for [29:40] communications.