UMich Scholars Challenge Post-Dobbs Abortion Bans With Classical Law

密歇根大学学者以古典律法挑战后Dobbs时代的堕胎禁令 各州的堕胎和胚胎禁令强加了一套现代基督教框架，凌驾于已延续千余年、将植入前胚胎归类为“水”并优先保障母体生命的犹太教和伊斯兰教法理之上。 在妇产科医生Lisa Harris的主持下，学者Rabea Benhalim、Terri Laws和Cara Rock-Singer探讨了生育问题在伊斯兰教、犹太教和黑人基督教传统中如何与神学、法律及身体自主权相互交织。与会学者详细阐述了灵魂注入时间线、植入前胚胎地位和母体优先权等古典法律概念，借此挑战了认为宗教一致反对堕胎的简化叙事。她们将自由主义个人权利与社群框架进行对比，通过古典法理学评估了IVF等辅助生殖技术，并在强调系统性种族和阶级不平等的同时，分析了后Dobbs时代基于《宗教自由恢复法》的法律策略。 古典犹太教法理学和伊斯兰教法的马立克学派（Mālikī school）均将植入前的囊胚以及妊娠前40天内的早期胚胎本质上归类为“水”（maya b'alma）而非法定的人，并在分娩冲突中将母体的生命与健康置于胎儿之上。 (34:36) 20世纪70年代末白人福音派的政治动员，最初源于对种族融合的抵制以及1976年Bob Jones University免税地位被撤销，随后策略师Paul Weyrich才推动该运动转向反堕胎行动主义。 (29:53) 后Dobbs时代依赖《宗教自由恢复法》（RFRA）的法律挑战，迫使非基督教传统围绕基督教化的“虔诚信仰”标准来界定其仪式和法律义务，而州一级的胚胎法律则为IVF患者造成了相互冲突的宗教自由实践现实。 (51:46) 尽管传统黑人教会的讲坛往往将生育话语局限于性规训和禁欲，但妇女主义学者围绕神圣共同创造、身体自主权，以及应对强制绝育（“密西西比阑尾切除术”）和临床差异等历史创伤，重新构建了生育议题。 (35:57)

Scholars on the University of Michigan panel argue that reproductive health is deeply embedded in religion not as a uniform set of moral prohibitions, but as an evolving landscape of legal reasoning, communal meaning-making, and justice-seeking across Jewish, Islamic, and Christian traditions. Embryos, Ensoulment, and Fetal Status Across Traditions (26:38) Panelists emphasize that non-Christian frameworks conceptualize embryonic life dynamically rather than granting absolute fetal personhood at fertilization. Rabea Benhalim notes that in classical Islamic jurisprudence and Jewish law, pre-implantation blastocysts in a laboratory freezer are regarded essentially as 'water' (*maya b'alma* in rabbinic texts), because they exist outside the womb and have not implanted. Classical Jewish legal sources maintain that the embryo remains in this status until forty days of gestation, with full legal personhood occurring only at birth, a forty-day marker also mirrored in the Islamic Mālikī school. Historical Evolution and Political Shifts in Reproductive Ethics (29:53) The panel challenges the misconception that religious stances on reproduction are ancient, uniform, or static. Cara Rock-Singer observes that Roman Catholic doctrine evolved over time, with abortion not incurring automatic excommunication until Pope Pius in the nineteenth century. Furthermore, white evangelical mobilization against abortion in the United States did not originate from theology, but was catalyzed in the late 1970s around civil rights, segregation, and the revocation of Bob Jones University's tax-exempt status, before political strategists steered that organizing into an anti-abortion platform. Pragmatic Jurisprudence, Maternal Life, and Novel Technologies (47:38) Classical Islamic and Jewish legal traditions addressed reproductive dilemmas through pragmatic considerations of lineage, communal welfare (*maslaha*), and the preservation of existing life. Benhalim highlights that under classical Islamic law, childbirth complications threatening the life of the pregnant woman are resolved strictly in her favor, as she is an established person with existing social ties whose life takes precedence over an unborn fetus even after ensoulment (classically dated around 120 days post-implantation). Racial Justice, State Regulation, and Inequity in Care (35:57) Terri Laws argues that reproductive health within African American religious contexts cannot be separated from historical trauma, sexual policing, and struggles for healthcare access. While traditional Black church pulpits often silence conversations around sex or mandate abstinence, emerging womanist scholarship reframes sexuality, pleasure, and reproduction as divine co-creation. Addressing modern fertility treatments, Laws and Lisa Harris point out that in vitro fertilization remains largely inaccessible to marginalized groups due to high financial costs, job constraints, and medical models historically normed on older, affluent white women. Religious Pluralism, Autonomy, and State Mandates (51:46) The panelists debate the authority of secular law over individual conscience and religious obligation. Following the *Dobbs* decision, advocates have utilized the Religious Freedom Restoration Act (RFRA) to argue that abortion bans impose sectarian Christian theology that infringes on Jewish legal mandates protecting maternal health. However, Rock-Singer notes RFRA's limitation in privileging 'sincerely held belief' over ritual and communal obligation. The speakers conclude that reproduction challenges Western concepts of individual autonomy by highlighting inescapable human interdependence, shared kinship, and the sacred nature of birth. The discussion leaves unresolved how modern secular legal regimes can effectively accommodate minority religious duties regarding assisted reproduction and abortion while simultaneously enforcing equitable public health standards across diverse populations.

[0:01] Jeffrey Veidlinger: that does not extend to the right to interrupt and interfere with events as they're taking place. [6:36] Lisa Harris: all I could see was a yarmulke. [11:11] Lisa Harris: under no circumstances will I have a blood transfusion, even if it means I'm going to die. [12:12] Rabea Benhalim: Wait, what? That is really reductionist. [16:01] Cara Rock-Singer: why is religion a reproductive issue in certain ways. [19:55] Terri Laws: the kind of Black Baptist Church that you see on TV. [26:40] Rabea Benhalim: I felt like her soul jump into the body. [34:36] Cara Rock-Singer: maya b'alma [35:57] Terri Laws: Mississippi appendectomy Terri Laws: co-creation of humanity with God [57:12] Terri Laws: Race makes a difference. And because it makes a difference, I'm quite satisfied with the way that we live this out. [59:13] Rabea Benhalim: if you get enough power in your state, have at it. [65:48] Cara Rock-Singer: I don't know. Ask someone who belongs in a birth. That's not me. I don't know anything. Terri Laws: inviting a different kind of spirit into your body

[0:01] JEFFREY VEIDLINGER: Thank you for coming out. [0:04] My name is Jeffrey Veidlinger, and I'm [0:07] the director of the Raoul Wallenberg Institute [0:10] here at the University of Michigan. [0:12] Thank you all, again, for coming to join us. [0:15] Thanks in particular to the students who are here with us. [0:19] And I wanted to remind all of the students [0:22] that we'll be hosting a moderated discussion, that [0:25] is also part of the class that some of you [0:26] are taking in the East Conference room [0:29] immediately after this. [0:31] And anybody, whether you're in the class [0:32] or you're not in the class, any students [0:35] are welcome to join that. [0:36] There will be food at that event as well. [0:39] So it's just kind of at that door and then next door. [0:42] Thank you as well to the staff of the Wallenberg Institute [0:46] for making this possible, Miriam Mora, Eleanor Campe, Alexis [0:50] Gideon, and Joe Johnson. [0:52] Thank you all so much. [0:54] The Raoul Wallenberg Institute was established in December 2023 [1:00] by the University of Michigan as part of a university-wide effort [1:05] to combat anti-Semitism and advance religious diversity [1:09] and inclusion on all three campuses. [1:12] Raoul Wallenberg, the institute's namesake, [1:15] was in 1935 Michigan alum who worked with the United States [1:19] and Swedish governments in Budapest [1:21] to save thousands of Jews from deportation to the Auschwitz [1:25] death camps during the Holocaust. [1:27] After the war, he was detained by the Red Army [1:30] and died in a Soviet prison. [1:33] The Samantha Wall dialogues are an important part [1:36] of our mission. [1:38] This series of conversations on contemporary issues [1:42] of consequence was established to honor [1:45] the memory of Samantha Wall, a proud graduate of the University [1:49] of Michigan, passionate community [1:51] leader, committed grassroots organizer, [1:53] and advocate for interfaith conversations. [1:57] She was tragically murdered in 2023 at the age of 40. [2:02] And I thank her family, Margo and Duguel and Monica and Ben [2:06] Rosen, for helping us realize this vision in this series. [2:11] This afternoon, we've brought together [2:13] experts on law, religion, and health [2:16] to help us understand how reproduction has become [2:19] a religious issue, what different religion [2:23] religious traditions have to say about reproduction, [2:25] and who gets to speak authoritatively on their behalf, [2:30] as well as how these issues have become so politicized [2:33] in our time and what's at stake theologically, [2:36] morally, and politically on the issue. [2:39] I want to say, I know this is a contentious issue, [2:42] and we have a wide variety of perspectives in the room. [2:46] One of the great things that universities can do [2:48] is serve as a marketplace of ideas [2:50] and allow people to freely express their ideas, [2:53] but that does not extend to the right to interrupt and interfere [2:57] with events as they're taking place, [2:59] so I would encourage you not to do so. [3:02] You all have index cards available, or will [3:05] have index cards available that we'll [3:06] be distributing in about 45 minutes or so, [3:11] and we'll collect them. [3:13] That will then help us guide the last segment of our discussion. [3:18] So at this point, I'll take the opportunity [3:21] to introduce our panelists for this afternoon. [3:25] First, I would like to welcome to the University of Michigan [3:29] Rabbi Ben Halim, who is Professor [3:32] associate professor at the University of Colorado Law [3:35] School. [3:36] Her research focuses on the development [3:38] of Islamic and Jewish law in the modern era. [3:41] Within this area, her current work [3:43] investigates how secular environments [3:45] affect interpretations and development of religious law, [3:49] especially for minority religions. [3:51] Her work has appeared, or is forthcoming in the Minnesota law [3:55] review, the Wisconsin law review, the BYU law review, [3:58] amongst others, and she's currently a Templeton pluralism [4:01] fellow based at the Georgetown University [4:03] Center for Muslim-Christian understanding. [4:06] So welcome, and we had a great faculty workshop with Professor [4:10] Ben Halim earlier this afternoon, [4:12] and really welcome and thanks for coming. [4:15] Our other panelists are a little bit more local, [4:18] but thank you also for coming and being a part of it. [4:20] I'll start with TerrI Laws all the way [4:22] to my right, who is associate professor of African [4:26] and African-American Studies at the University [4:28] of Michigan-Dearborn. [4:29] Dr. Laws employs theories and methods from the social sciences [4:33] to investigate questions in race, religion, and society, [4:37] with health-care and health inequities [4:39] as her institutional foci. [4:41] The aim of her research agenda is [4:43] to contribute to the body of knowledge that reduces health [4:46] inequity through the investigation [4:47] of social and cultural factors, and she's currently [4:50] writing a monograph on African-American religion [4:52] and health. [4:54] So we look forward to seeing that. [4:56] To her left is Cara Rock-Singer. [5:01] Cara Rock-Singer, is the professor [5:04] of contemporary Jewish life and assistant professor [5:07] of Jewish Studies at the Jean and Samuel Frankel [5:09] center for Judaic Studies here at the University of Michigan. [5:13] She's also affiliated with the Gender and Women's Studies [5:15] Department and the Science and Technology studies department, [5:19] and her first book, Gestating Judaism the Corporeal [5:23] Technologies of American Jewish Religion, [5:25] will be out on November 3, we hope, with Chicago University [5:30] Press. [5:31] So congratulations, Cara. [5:32] We really look forward to seeing that, to seeing that book out [5:35] and to reading it. [5:37] And finally, sharing our conversation [5:40] will be Lisa Harris. [5:42] Dr. Harris is cross trained as an OB/GYN [5:44] and cultural historian. [5:46] She's the George E. Wantz professor [5:48] of interdisciplinary enrichment in medicine, [5:51] and an Arthur Thurnau professor, and Professor of Obstetrics [5:54] and Gynecology and of women's and gender studies [5:56] here at the University of Michigan, [5:58] and directs Michigan medicine's new center [6:01] for history, humanities, arts, social sciences, and ethics [6:04] in medicine. [6:06] LISA HARRIS: Take a breath. [6:07] JEFFREY VEIDLINGER: So you got a lot of titles in there. [6:09] Dr. Harris's research crosses medical history, arts, [6:12] humanities, bioethics, and social sciences, [6:15] and she and her research teams have [6:17] explored the history of in-vitro fertilization [6:19] in the US, abortion stigma, strategies [6:22] for providing health-care within a reproductive justice [6:24] framework, and the role of health-care provider [6:26] voices in reducing social polarization. [6:29] So with that introduction, I will turn things over [6:32] to Dr. Harris and to our panelists, and thank you all. [6:36] LISA HARRIS: Thank you. [6:41] So welcome, everybody. [6:43] Thank you for the introductions of all of us. [6:46] And as you heard, and probably the reason you're here today, [6:49] we're considering the intersection [6:50] of religion and reproduction. [6:54] Or put another way, why is reproductive health [6:57] a religious issue? [6:59] Obviously, reproduction has many meanings and faces. [7:03] It's a personal family building issue. [7:05] It's a medical health and health care issue. [7:07] It's a scientific research issue. [7:09] It's a contested political issue. [7:11] And of course, it is a part of life [7:14] that is addressed in both secular and religious law. [7:17] And all of these things are true at the same time, [7:21] and that's what we'll be grappling with today. [7:23] We decided to divide this conversation into three parts. [7:27] So in part one, I'm going to ask panelists [7:30] to share a bit about their own work and research [7:35] related to reproduction and/or religion. [7:38] But more intriguingly, I asked them to share their origin story [7:42] related to this topic, meaning what grabbed them [7:45] about it, what made it interesting for them, [7:47] and why have did they decide to be on a panel like this? [7:51] So that's part one. [7:52] In part two, I'll ask panelists how reproduction [7:56] is treated across multiple different religious traditions [8:00] that panelists either study or represent. [8:05] And then finally, in part three, I'll [8:07] ask panelists to consider the really kind of fraught [8:11] questions of reproduction in the context of politics and policy [8:16] and religious pluralism. [8:18] Put another way, we'll be talking about the question, what [8:22] authority should some religious traditions or teachings have [8:25] over people who do not share that religious tradition? [8:30] After that, so that'll take us about 45 minutes [8:32] and then we'll open it up to your questions, [8:34] so I do really invite you to write down, share questions that [8:38] are on your mind, and I will pose them [8:41] to the panelists in the last half hour of our conversation. [8:45] So I thought maybe, if you indulge me, [8:47] I would share my own origin story, with respect [8:52] to the intersection of religion and reproduction to kick us off, [8:55] and then I will turn it over to you. [8:58] So I chose health care as my career. [9:01] I did not intentionally choose a career related to religion, [9:05] but I found myself consistently thinking about religion, [9:09] or really more, truthfully, bumping up against religion [9:14] in my day-to-day work. [9:15] And this has been true for me since my very first night [9:18] on call in OB/GYN as a medical student, where I witnessed [9:22] birth for the first time. [9:25] And what I felt was awesome. [9:27] And I know there's at least one other obstetrician [9:29] in the room, and maybe other people [9:31] who've witnessed birth, which is a little different from actually [9:33] having a birth. [9:36] I felt a sense of awe. [9:38] That's what I mean by awesome, that another human being could [9:42] come out of the body of one human being. [9:45] And it felt significant to me as someone [9:48] that came from a religious Jewish tradition, [9:50] that when a baby is head down, facing down, which [9:53] is the more typical way of coming out, [9:55] the first part of the head that comes out [9:56] is right here, which all I could see was a yarmulke. [10:01] No, seriously, my first night on call, [10:03] and I connected this sense of awe and respect [10:06] for life the first time I saw a birth [10:08] to the reverence and respect that a yarmulke represents [10:12] for people who wear one. [10:14] I felt a sense of the miraculousness [10:16] that people can feed a baby for months with just their own body. [10:26] All of the things related to birth and growth of a baby [10:28] generated feelings of faith and awe in me. [10:32] But I also feel the intersection of reproduction [10:35] with specific religious traditions when, for example, [10:38] a Jewish parent on morning rounds on labor and delivery [10:41] says that they want to circumcise their baby. [10:44] Or when a Muslim patient on labor and delivery [10:47] puts a sign on their door saying only female care providers, [10:51] please. [10:51] Or when an earlier point in my career, [10:53] I was working at planned parenthood [10:55] and I would drive out to the parking lot, [10:58] and I would see protesters from the local Catholic parish [11:03] and church and local Catholic high school, [11:06] or when I received threatening anti-abortion mail [11:11] in my mailbox, but that explicitly invoked [11:14] anti-Semitic tropes and images. [11:16] And I feel it when I'm worried about a patient who's [11:19] going to have a cesarean section because of their Jehovah's [11:23] Witness faith, they've said under no circumstances [11:26] will I have a blood transfusion, even [11:28] if it means I'm going to die. [11:30] There are multiple times and spaces in health care [11:33] where I feel this intersection. [11:35] And I've never really known how to think about it. [11:38] I'm probably not alone in that, and I'm really hopeful today [11:42] that you will help me think about this intersection, [11:45] and why reproduction is such a powerful place where [11:49] religious traditions and practices come into play. [11:53] So with that, I will turn it over [11:57] to you to answer the question, tell us [12:01] about your own research, or areas of study, [12:04] and why you are interested, or why [12:07] you care about this intersection of religion [12:09] and reproductive health? [12:10] And maybe we'll just go in order. [12:11] Is that OK? [12:12] REBEA BENHALIM: That's sounds great. [12:13] Yeah. [12:14] So first of all, thank you for having me. [12:16] Really, really delighted to be here. [12:18] My sort of foray into this area of research [12:22] started in 2020 when I was going through a divorce. [12:26] And my ex-husband and I had created embryos, [12:30] and truth be told, I hadn't thought [12:33] a lot about the permissibility of IVF [12:36] within my own religious tradition. [12:37] I'm Muslim. [12:38] I kind of looked it up and talked to someone [12:40] and they're like IVF in Islam, it's fine. [12:43] I was like, OK, great. [12:44] But then I was suddenly faced with, wait, wait, wait, [12:46] what do I do with these embryos now that I no longer want [12:49] to use them and I'm going through a divorce, [12:52] and my husband at the time had some different feelings [12:54] about it, and so I had to really delve [12:57] pretty deeply into my own religious tradition [12:59] to see what Islam did say about IVF embryos [13:04] in the context of divorce. [13:06] And what I learned was that I actually [13:08] had a religious obligation to allow those embryos to defrost, [13:12] to not be used. [13:14] And it really got me thinking about, hang on, [13:16] what happens in other parts of the United States? [13:19] I live in Colorado. [13:20] And through that, I discovered that the decision [13:23] that I made in Colorado is not legally [13:26] permissible in Louisiana. [13:29] And so I thought about-- [13:31] which seemed really in contradiction [13:32] with the First Amendment, because I [13:34] had an actual religious obligation to do this. [13:37] And from there, it has continued on, [13:40] and in a strange twist of fate, due to timing, [13:44] I am actually currently pregnant with an IVF embryo. [13:47] I got remarried. [13:48] I have a very lovely husband. [13:50] We are very grateful to have the availability [13:53] of that particular health care, and I'm [13:55] very grateful to be pregnant with this child. [13:57] So it's a little bit strange also [13:58] to be having this conversation in this particular moment, [14:02] but it really got me thinking about what [14:03] are the obligations, how is this regulated within my own faith [14:07] tradition. [14:07] And then the other piece that I've written about [14:09] is I've also written about abortion, particularly [14:13] under Jewish and Islamic law. [14:15] And part of that was just really after Dobbs, [14:18] after Roe was overturned, seeing Muslim American leaders go [14:23] on CNN, or PBS, or the Nightly News, [14:26] and come out with these statements saying, oh, abortion [14:29] is Haram, which means abortion is impermissible. [14:33] And based on everything I knew, I sort of went, wait, what? [14:36] That is really reductionist. [14:38] That is really missing a very rich history [14:42] of thinking about what are and aren't [14:46] the protections to growing life, potential life, [14:52] and what are the obligations. [14:54] Also, what are the duties that we have to one another? [14:57] And I found that it was missing, like I just [15:00] did not see it being discussed in the public sphere. [15:02] I saw within the public discourse [15:06] two positions, which was either, oh, it's [15:08] just about your rights over your body as a woman, [15:11] or this is a complete human life. [15:12] And so for me, really delving into the legal doctrines [15:18] of Islam and Judaism and seeing that there's been deep [15:21] disagreement for a really long time, [15:25] like well over 1,000 years, and that a range of positions were [15:32] all sort of accommodated. [15:34] Yeah, there's a position that says it is Haram, [15:36] it is impermissible, but also a range [15:38] of positions it says, hang on, let's look at timelines. [15:40] Let's look at where fetal development is. [15:42] Let's look at the context of what the health of the mother [15:45] is. [15:45] So that, for me, is-- [15:47] I like the gray. [15:49] I like where there's areas of accommodation [15:53] for differing positions and diversity of positions. [15:56] So I'll pass it on to you. [16:01] CARA ROCK-SINGER: So I guess my origin story is quite different [16:04] because I would root it in my undergraduate years. [16:08] So if you're in LSNA doing a liberal arts education, [16:12] you might start off doing one thing. [16:14] For me, that was molecular biology. [16:16] And though I continued that and did that all the way through, [16:20] I also was never up for being a doctor. [16:23] I'm not good with the blood and the germs and the things. [16:27] I took a religion class as part of a distribution requirement [16:31] and I just was hooked. [16:33] And it happened to be early on in my undergraduate career [16:36] that I took a women, gender, and religion class, [16:40] and I read some ethnographies for the first time. [16:43] So I read about people who were going out into communities [16:46] and spending time with them and trying [16:48] to understand their worlds and the meaning that they make [16:50] and the way they negotiate. [16:52] And I was like, I just want to do that. [16:54] So I white knuckled it through the molecular biology degree [17:00] and did a shadow religion major on the side. [17:03] And though I eventually came to reproduction [17:08] as a personal experience, which in my forthcoming book, [17:12] write in gory detail about it at moments, and as part [17:17] of my story and my scholarship, it really [17:19] started as an intellectual interest [17:21] because I was interested in studying religion and science, [17:25] and it was suggested to me by mentors [17:28] and I was, like, felt very naive. [17:30] And I wasn't in that reproductive thinking headspace [17:33] at 19 years old. [17:36] That religion, this was an interesting territory [17:39] for thinking about religion and science. [17:41] And I said, well, OK. [17:44] And so that's how I dug in into that. [17:47] And now, Jeff mentioned my book, and I've alluded to it. [17:51] So the book that I worked on for quite some time, which [17:55] was over the course of having two children, [17:57] but also spending time in lots of different Jewish communities, [18:01] it's called Gestating Judaism, and it's really [18:04] an ethnography of how people use reproductive practices [18:07] to transmit and reinvent American Judaism. [18:11] So in a lot of ways, it flips the question of this panel [18:14] on its head, insofar as it's not wise reproduction [18:17] of religious issue. [18:18] It's why is religion a reproductive issue [18:21] in certain ways. [18:23] And it's timely at this time of year. [18:27] The Jewish New Year just happened. [18:30] And on Rosh Hashanah, we also have a kind of origin story. [18:34] So if I can nest origin stories about beginnings [18:39] of Jewish peoplehood that's written in the Bible, [18:42] including a bunch of women who become matriarchs, [18:47] who are infertile. [18:48] And so those are the stories that are really embedded [18:50] at the start of that tradition. [18:52] And a text that I'm teaching my class this week is about Hannah, [18:57] who is actually praying because she is suffering [19:02] from infertility, and she is praying so devoutly [19:05] that she becomes the model of what [19:08] sincere prayer should be about. [19:11] So for the rabbis of the ancient Jewish tradition, [19:15] reproduction was a model for how to-- someone [19:18] grasping for reproduction was the model, actually, [19:21] for what sincere religiosity looked like and acted like. [19:26] And so that's-- [19:27] LISA HARRIS: Didn't people think she had lost her mind? [19:29] CARA ROCK-SINGER: Drunk, drunk, Yeah. [19:33] Yeah, so I think there are many ways in which we make worlds. [19:37] Some of those are biological bodies, and some of those [19:40] are much broader worlds. [19:41] And so, hopefully, both of those pieces [19:44] come together in this conversation. [19:50] Very good. [19:55] TERRI LAWS: OK. [19:55] OK. [19:56] Thank you. [19:57] Well, again, thank you for the invitation. [19:59] And I'm very glad to be here with this esteemed panel. [20:04] My origin story really is about religion and health. [20:08] And I went to the kind of, I hope [20:12] no one is offended how I phrase this, [20:15] I went to the kind of Black Baptist Church [20:18] that you see on TV, without stereotype, [20:22] but it, literally, is social justice, politicians show up, [20:28] especially during election time, lots of singing, [20:33] just the people in the congregation who [20:38] literally walked with King. [20:41] Everybody says that, especially if you have any time in Atlanta, [20:45] but they actually did. [20:47] And those are the kind of people that I knew. [20:53] That's what I knew about church, until I went to seminary. [20:57] And when I went to seminary, my experience [21:00] was that there were lots of other kinds of experiences, [21:04] even with among Black Baptists. [21:07] But before I had gone to seminary, [21:09] I worked in an academic Medical Center. [21:14] I saw lots of things that didn't seem to jive with what [21:18] I understood as justice. [21:21] And so justice for my entire religious life [21:26] was front and center, and it seemed to me [21:31] that justice needed to be front and center in health care [21:35] as well. [21:36] That was contentious among some of my seminary colleagues. [21:40] They thought I was making up things [21:42] that I saw in scripture, and not always happy with how I read [21:49] scripture about things missing from people's lives [21:54] and that things were injust or unjust. [21:58] So I've continued the conversation with myself. [22:04] After seminary, went ahead and did the doctoral program, [22:08] and I was in the best of places. [22:13] I was in Houston, Texas, at Rice University, [22:16] and across the street were umpteen hospitals and training [22:20] centers. [22:22] People from across the globe there in Houston [22:27] to learn or to get health care. [22:30] But also, there I was with the opportunity [22:34] to learn much more about what I was exploring. [22:38] And on top of that, and this will come up later, [22:46] while I was in seminary, I had learned [22:49] from one of the mothers of womanism, [22:52] and we can talk about what that is later. [22:54] But it's, basically, it's race, class, and gender. [23:01] And I had lots of questions about how that [23:04] applied to religion and health. [23:07] And then lastly, I will say, I have [23:09] chosen in this field in religion and health to be a generalist. [23:13] So I get to learn about reproduction, [23:16] but I also get to do things think about animal [23:21] to human transplantation. [23:24] I also think about things like, and my first conversation [23:28] with myself was really about clinical trials [23:31] and African-American participation, or not, [23:33] in clinical trials. [23:35] So again, justice led the way and still leading the way. [23:42] LISA HARRIS: Thank you, all. [23:44] OK, so we're now moving into part two of the panel. [23:46] And I would love to have a conversation about, from where [23:51] you sit or work or study or believe yourself, [23:56] how do different religious traditions, especially [23:58] the ones you know best, think about different aspects [24:02] of religion? [24:03] So this could be infertility and related technologies, birth, [24:08] miscarriage, abortion. [24:11] How does religious law work in all of those arenas? [24:14] And then maybe I'll tack on another question too, which [24:17] is what common assumptions about religions traditional views [24:22] on a particular issue would you most like to dispel? [24:25] I think you kind of did one already, but, yeah, tell us [24:28] from where you sit and study what [24:30] you would like us to know about different religious traditions [24:33] and reproduction? [24:35] REBEA BENHALIM: Do you want us to go in order or is there-- [24:38] LISA HARRIS: Go ahead. [24:39] REBEA BENHALIM: OK. [24:39] I just wanted to make sure I-- [24:40] I want to make sure there's space. [24:42] Yeah. [24:42] So I think in terms of the why I think it's important, [24:48] my own beliefs around it, and then a little bit more [24:51] on what the various traditions say. [24:57] To me, what's so interesting about it, [25:00] from a religious perspective, as a law school professor, [25:03] is I think, a lot about, OK, well, [25:05] what are the public policy aspects, [25:06] and we're going to get to that part three, [25:08] so I don't want to go too much there. [25:09] But also how and why are we regulating these things [25:12] in particular ways. [25:13] And the United States, which is where I primarily [25:15] do my research, is really interesting [25:18] that in some spheres, we're highly regulatory. [25:22] And so much of it is geographically-based. [25:25] So for instance, Texas or various other states, we can-- [25:29] I'm from Texas, other states we can name, [25:32] abortion is highly regulated at this point, [25:34] to the point of mostly being completely very few [25:39] narrow exceptions. [25:41] But then something like surrogacy, pretty unregulated. [25:46] And all of these instances, I think [25:50] there's an interesting-- there can be a tension between what [25:53] somebody's own understanding is and what the state is telling [25:57] them, what someone believes God wants them to do [26:00] and what the state is or is not allowing. [26:04] And so that's part of the interest to me. [26:06] And then, again, I think when it comes into the context [26:10] of, for instance, IVF or abortion-- [26:12] surrogacy is a little bit different-- [26:15] that there is guidance from the religious traditions. [26:19] And so if someone's in a position where they're [26:21] trying to make a moral decision, ethical or moral decision [26:24] making, if they're coming from a religious tradition, [26:27] there can be guidance within that. [26:29] Now, there might be a range of positions, like I said before, [26:31] but that range can also, in and of itself, [26:33] provide guidance to see what does or does not align with you [26:37] morally. [26:38] And so the quick example that I'll give [26:40] is that within the IVF context, which I think is interesting, [26:44] both Islamic law and Jewish law, and I [26:45] don't want to speak too much on Jewish law [26:47] because we have you as well, but it doesn't really [26:52] have any problems with embryo disposal in the ways [26:54] that we might see coming out of particular Christian traditions. [26:58] And that's because when we look at the religious texts [27:01] from those traditions, the initial formation [27:04] of a blastocyst, they're actually [27:06] technically not embryos. [27:07] Everyone calls them IVF embryos. [27:08] They're not embryos from a technical, scientific position. [27:11] They're blastocyst, but preimplantation outside [27:15] of a uterus, outside of having implanted [27:18] into the lining of a womb, both traditions consider them [27:22] as effectively as water. [27:24] Now, there's protections for them. [27:25] You can't just put them in anyone. [27:27] There's going to be-- there's things within that. [27:29] But the disposal question itself is actually not terribly fraught [27:34] because the texts refer to them as water. [27:38] And so what I think is interesting is how do we then [27:41] move forward as it progresses? [27:42] So there's a distinction between something existing in a Petri [27:46] dish in a freezer and something that's now inside of a body. [27:50] And then something that's inside of a body to something [27:53] that's growing and has a placenta, [27:54] and then something that has taken [27:56] on a particular human form. [27:57] And then within the Islamic tradition, [28:00] the ensoulment occurs at a certain period of time. [28:03] And I'll just go back a little bit [28:04] to the first section of the personal motivations, which [28:08] for me is something that was very interesting with both [28:10] of my pregnancies, particularly, though, [28:12] with my-- first with my daughter, [28:14] is there was a very distinct moment where [28:16] I experienced ensoulment, which I had not anticipated. [28:19] I was sort of curious about-- [28:21] there was-- I was in Italy walking through Florence. [28:25] It was beautiful. [28:26] And all of a sudden, I literally felt like-- [28:28] I felt like her soul jump into the body. [28:30] And it was just-- it was unexpected. [28:33] But there was this religious framing [28:35] to this physical experience that was happening. [28:38] And so, yeah, I think just having [28:41] this idea of how do we deal with something that is dynamic. [28:45] And within the religious traditions, it's not geographic. [28:50] And that's what I think is unique about the American legal [28:52] environment, is that so much of these particular regulations [28:57] are geographic. [28:58] If you're in Colorado, it's a different set of regulations [29:00] than it is in Texas. [29:02] And so that's also a different experience of law [29:06] and what is or isn't permissible where you physically [29:08] are versus what authorities across the ages within religion [29:14] have thought about. [29:15] LISA HARRIS: Can I ask you, was your experience of ensoulment? [29:18] Did it coincide with when-- [29:20] REBEA BENHALIM: It totally did. [29:21] LISA HARRIS: When is that? [29:22] REBEA BENHALIM: Yeah. [29:23] So the-- I will try and give a very short answer [29:25] to this, which is just that the Islamic counting is [29:29] different than a traditional American Medical counting, [29:32] because Islamic counting of days past the timelines [29:37] are not from your last missed period. [29:40] They're from implantation. [29:42] So it's roughly 120 days after implantation. [29:46] Yeah. [29:47] LISA HARRIS: And that's when you-- [29:48] REBEA BENHALIM: And it was really-- it was like, oh yeah. [29:52] LISA HARRIS: Thank you. [29:53] CARA ROCK-SINGER: OK. [29:54] So I'll answer this question, I guess, [29:56] a little bit from my teacher hat, [29:59] and the things that I teach as a scholar of American religion, [30:02] American religious history, and a little bit [30:03] from my own research hat, which focuses more on Judaism. [30:09] So in a class of mine that I teach, [30:11] called women, gender, and religion, [30:13] when we get to the week where we talk explicitly [30:17] about reproduction, I do a little exercise where [30:19] I say stand on one side of the room if you agree, [30:21] and on one side of the room if you disagree. [30:23] And it's the prompts, I looked them up. [30:25] I looked at my slides today to remind myself what I ask. [30:28] And a couple of them are religion [30:30] opposes abortion and another one is conservative Christians [30:34] always oppose abortion. [30:35] And then I also have one about science tells us [30:37] when life begins. [30:38] I had all of these different questions. [30:40] And it's interesting to watch people do this kind of movement, [30:43] because what they have read, ostensibly, is, one, [30:48] an article by a Catholic scholar tracing [30:51] the evolving nature of Catholic doctrine on these questions. [30:56] And actually, really only in the 19th century does Pope Pius [31:02] explicitly proclaim that abortion is sin and leads [31:05] to excommunication. [31:06] And I mean, it's not like out of nowhere, [31:08] but there are evolutions and even traditions [31:11] that we really canonically think of as being anti-abortion. [31:16] But they've also read a series of different articles. [31:19] They got to choose your own adventure of different articles [31:22] that I post from different traditions. [31:23] And what becomes clear is that if we [31:26] look across a pluralistic cross-section, [31:29] even within American religion, there are vastly different, [31:33] what you've alluded to, vastly different ideas about what's [31:35] permissible, what's obligated, and these different kinds [31:38] of questions. [31:40] The other thing that I think I would want people to know, [31:43] and this comes from not my own research, [31:46] but one of my mentors in grad school [31:50] has written extensively on the myth [31:52] of evangelical and conservative Christian stances on abortion. [31:58] And really makes a convincing case that it's really [32:04] in America-- in the American context, [32:06] that abortion is really a Catholic issue until late 1970s, [32:10] and that there is an active mobilization of evangelicals [32:15] in the late '70s that has little to do at its origin with issues [32:22] of reproduction and everything to do with issues around race [32:26] and racial segregation, and particularly the tax exempt [32:31] status of Bob Jones University, which was revoked in 1976. [32:36] And that became a rallying point for evangelical entry [32:43] into politics, the formation of the religious right, [32:46] and the active courting by Paul Weyrich, [32:48] who is a conservative Catholic thinker, [32:51] to get evangelicals on board with a kind [32:57] of anti-abortion message. [32:58] So you see a radical shift actually starting [33:01] in the '80s that now we've forgotten about. [33:05] So there's this kind of timelessness. [33:06] There's often an amnesia about the quite recent origins [33:11] of some of these. [33:13] And whether or not people have sincerely held beliefs [33:18] to use the American legal discourse is beside the point [33:21] that, historically, there was an organized [33:24] movement around something very different [33:28] that created that structure. [33:31] So those, I would say, are my big-- [33:34] it's not timeless and it's not universal. [33:36] And then in terms of the Jewish and the my own kind [33:46] of research approaches, I think one of the things, [33:48] and we'll maybe get to this, I'll keep it short, [33:50] get to this in the third part, is [33:53] that I am an ethnographer, which means I get to hang out [33:58] and float between communities and understand [34:00] people's lived experiences. [34:02] And so one of the ways that I think about these issues is [34:06] really looking at reproduction and religion [34:10] in ways that are not framed by the state, so were good [34:12] complements. [34:14] And really, one of the things I want to say [34:15] is that a lot of issues around reproduction for people, [34:19] and even religious law, have nothing [34:21] to do with state regulation, and have nothing [34:24] to do with what might seem and register as moral on terms [34:28] that we're talking about life of, [34:31] for example, when life begins, or embryos and fetuses [34:35] and their status. [34:36] That for lots of people, reproductive issues are things [34:41] like, what do I do if I'm a religious Jew who doesn't drive [34:45] on Shabbat and I go into labor? [34:48] Things like that are much more mundane [34:51] and also without centralized authority, [34:54] are much more negotiated on smaller scales. [34:59] So I'll say more about that in our third round, [35:01] but I'll stop there. [35:02] LISA HARRIS: Before we leave Judaism, [35:03] do you want to weigh in on the ensoulment issue? [35:05] Is there a time frame? [35:07] CARA ROCK-SINGER: So if you look at text, [35:10] the texts really say until 40 days, it's about water. [35:15] And then personhood really begins at birth. [35:20] And according to predominant Jewish traditions, [35:22] but that doesn't mean that it's willy-nilly. [35:25] There's lots of opinions and lots of negotiation [35:28] around abortion, nevertheless, but it's [35:31] a different kind of stance on the fetal personhood, which [35:36] doesn't mean everyone is very lenient, [35:38] but it does mean that there is that difference in terms [35:41] of ideas of when life begins. [35:44] REBEA BENHALIM: Can I quickly clarify? [35:45] I actually stated the most lenient approach. [35:47] There is also a position within what's [35:48] called the Maliki school of thought that [35:50] also says 40 days, that this 40 days is [35:52] a particular demarcation. [35:54] LISA HARRIS: Thank you. [35:57] TERRI LAWS: So my comments are not about babies. [36:04] Especially in African-American communities and Black churches, [36:10] the conversation is much more about sex [36:13] and about who ought not be having sex, [36:16] and how often you ought not be having sex, [36:19] and just don't think about sex. [36:23] And the conversation is quite fluid. [36:29] Some older women will take you aside and tell you things. [36:36] Mostly what you will hear from the pulpit, [36:40] if you hear anything at all, is just don't. [36:43] And that, of course, is not unusual. [36:47] However, I take a different approach in my class [36:52] because I am not in the pulpit and I live in the real world. [36:57] And so I have a class called Black Women [36:59] religion and spirituality, and I do use a module. [37:03] I include a module on sex and pleasure, [37:07] because they're not going to hear that in the pulpit, [37:12] from the pulpit. [37:14] And researchers in this area, also, in this area, [37:20] this topic within reproduction, also [37:22] are thinking about sex and sexual pleasure. [37:26] And part of what they're thinking about [37:29] is really freeing women from conversations [37:35] that what they will term as theologically oppressive. [37:40] And that is to say, really person's sex is a part of life. [37:47] That's how we get-- [37:49] this is how we get babies, right? [37:53] Right? [37:54] REBEA BENHALIM: Not always. [37:55] Not always. [37:55] TERRI LAWS: True, true. [37:56] Not always. [37:57] CARA ROCK-SINGER: Sometimes there are test tubes and things. [37:59] TERRI LAWS: This is true. [38:00] This is true. [38:02] Except access. [38:04] OK, we won't go there. [38:06] But at any rate, So the questions [38:11] about reproduction and sex also has a downside, [38:16] because the history of Black women [38:18] is that there's been lots of sexual violence. [38:21] And women, especially during enslavement, [38:25] I use a lot of history in my classes. [38:28] And access to Black women for sexual purposes [38:34] has a very long, very long history. [38:38] So there's the side from the pulpit, which [38:42] is talking about things like sex as sin, sexual pleasure as sin. [38:47] But then there's the lives that people [38:49] have had in which they're trying to stay safe from sexual threat. [38:57] So it actually requires both of those. [39:00] And I'm so grateful to scholars who are now opening-- [39:04] this is an emerging conversation for African-American-- [39:09] among African-American communities. [39:13] To do a PhD obviously is a high bar to entry, [39:18] so there are not a lot of us who are doing religion and health, [39:21] but I'm really thankful for the scholars who [39:25] are having this particular conversation [39:27] and challenging us to think about things [39:31] like the idea of what is sin exactly. [39:36] The other side of the question, is [39:40] in part about what are challenges I need to dispel. [39:44] That is one, but it's also to share the history. [39:48] And it's very challenging to talk [39:51] about the other side of the history that I just mentioned. [39:54] Mississippi appendectomy, anybody heard that conversation? [39:58] In which sterilization has been a real threat, [40:04] both to persons who have institutional, who've been [40:07] institutionalized. [40:08] And that's a conversation that we're actually not always having [40:13] today because we think about it as a historic conversation [40:17] as well. [40:18] But the reality is that sex isn't-- a conversation about sex [40:24] is not all sin, and it's not all about violence, [40:30] and it's not all about pleasure. [40:32] It's how do we have this conversation in order [40:35] to move forward. [40:36] That's the goal. [40:37] How do we move forward in these various aspects [40:42] of this particular challenge? [40:45] LISA HARRIS: Can I ask a follow up-- oh, go ahead. [40:47] No, go ahead. [40:48] REBEA BENHALIM: Sorry, I was just [40:48] going to say hearing you speak also reminded me-- [40:50] I should also clarify that I've also [40:51] worked on contracts, and the ways in which that [40:54] does and doesn't create sexual access within Islamic law. [40:57] And just hearing you speak reminded me, actually, [40:58] of a very-- [40:59] I'm like, maybe, actually, all of this [41:00] started when I was eight years old. [41:02] My mother took me to an event at the mosque. [41:04] They had a special scholar come in, [41:07] and it was just an event for women. [41:09] And so my mom thought, this is great for my eight-year-old. [41:11] And she showed up feeling very annoyed because the scholar was [41:14] hidden behind a screen. [41:16] You couldn't visually see him and she [41:18] was sort of feeling frustrated. [41:19] And then everyone could write in questions, [41:21] much like we will do today, and the first question [41:24] was about the permissibility of cunnilingus, [41:26] although in much more descriptive terms. [41:28] And then I think-- yeah, and I was eight. [41:30] And my mom was, like, oh, maybe go outside. [41:32] I was like, what are they talking about? [41:34] Is it permissible? [41:34] What are they talking about? [41:36] And so it just makes me appreciative [41:38] hearing that reflection. [41:39] Thank you. [41:41] LISA HARRIS: Before we move on to talk [41:42] about religious pluralism, why-- [41:46] all of you have talked about the ways [41:48] that religion addresses different aspects [41:50] of reproduction. [41:51] But why? [41:53] Is religion addressing different aspects of asthma and asthma [41:56] treatment equivalently? [41:58] What is it about reproduction? [41:59] What is at stake communally, spiritually, power and authority [42:03] wise, why reproduction as such a central issue across religions? [42:10] Anybody can take it. [42:11] And Terri, and for you, in particular, [42:14] where sex is the focus, but a silence about sex [42:17] also means silence about historical and contemporary [42:20] abuses, why? [42:25] TERRI LAWS: It is not a pleasant-- the historical part [42:27] is not a pleasant conversation. [42:29] It's-- we don't have eight-year-olds here, right, [42:36] who hear this conversation? [42:39] Some people really believe that if you hear about sex [42:45] that it entices you to participate, [42:50] so then you have the conversation about sin. [42:55] Of course, those of us who are thinking [42:58] about this theologically, are also [43:01] thinking about the other side, which [43:03] is the conversation about privacy, [43:06] and the conversation about private touch. [43:08] And these are but these are newer ideas. [43:11] These are not-- these are not ideas [43:14] that the people who, generally, are leading churches [43:18] are thinking about. [43:22] I'll just leave it there. [43:24] Hopefully, that answers your question. [43:26] LISA HARRIS: Yeah. [43:26] I'm just curious, other thoughts about why there's [43:29] such a body of work and thought around reproduction [43:32] in particular, what's at stake? [43:34] CARA ROCK-SINGER: So religion is a lot of things. [43:41] I'm a scholar of religion, and it would take me a long time [43:44] to flesh out every theory of religion, what it does, [43:47] and it's going to be my whole life, I think, [43:49] thinking these things through. [43:51] But whatever else religion might be, [43:54] because I think it's a lot of things, it is-- [43:58] one thing that religion is a way of understanding how we [44:03] divide and make distinctions. [44:07] And that would be socially, that would be communally. [44:10] And I think like that one big distinction [44:16] is between what is alive and what is not alive, what is human [44:19] and what is not human, what is godlike and able to create? [44:26] And we can think of lots and lots of divisions. [44:29] And how do we police those, is part, then, [44:32] of the kind of mechanism. [44:33] So we might think about what's taboo [44:35] and what can't be talked about. [44:36] And that's also the work of understanding religion, [44:41] not just as what traditions say, but how religion as an idea, [44:45] as a sort of social force functions in society. [44:48] And so I think reproduction is existential. [44:52] It's something that we have differing [44:58] amounts of knowledge and access to with increasing technologies. [45:02] Like our ideas about reproduction of change, [45:05] once we can see things that we couldn't see, [45:08] and different kinds of-- and so to-- [45:12] then there are religious responses to that, [45:16] but I would say in religion and science, [45:20] these are the two arenas that I came to this work [45:23] from thinking about the intersection. [45:26] And they're really both working around similar territories [45:30] around these questions. [45:32] And I think it seems maybe obvious that-- [45:37] I mean, I would ask you, why is reproduction a scientific issue? [45:41] It does-- we interesting conversation, [45:43] but it didn't seem like one worth asking. [45:45] And I think things that are at this intersection [45:49] are constantly being renegotiated. [45:53] Yeah, I'll stop there. [45:54] TERRI LAWS: Can we just-- [45:55] CARA ROCK-SINGER: Please. [45:56] Yeah, I know. [45:57] Maybe we'll just leave the things on. [45:58] TERRI LAWS: Can I just add, in the African-American tradition, [46:04] and not only, but we talk about the co-creation of humanity [46:10] with God. [46:14] And womanists, in particular, are [46:16] very interested in womanists. [46:18] Again, just for simplicity, almost like a Black feminist. [46:24] We'll say it that way. [46:25] And this idea of co-creation is also linked to the idea [46:34] be fruitful and multiply. [46:36] Very much be fruitful and co-create with God [46:40] in order to multiply. [46:42] And there are multiple verses that lead us in this direction. [46:48] And we want to be able to continue humanity [46:57] because God decided that humanity was good, created us [47:04] and it was good. [47:06] And our participation in reproduction produces good. [47:13] That's enough. [47:15] REBEA BENHALIM: That makes sense. [47:17] I'll just speak from the Islamic perspective. [47:18] And I definitely cannot speak for all Muslims, [47:20] but I'm going to give some broad generalizations. [47:24] I think when we look at Islam, historically, in particular [47:29] and what was trying to be achieved, was a lot of it [47:33] was social harmony, the social contract. [47:38] How do we create a society that alleviates suffering? [47:42] How do we take care of those who are most in need? [47:45] And so, for instance, looking at sex and what sex [47:50] is permissible or isn't, pleasure is not an issue as long [47:53] as you're married. [47:55] I'm encouraged, but as long as you're married. [47:57] But I think that marriage question is actually [47:59] quite important, and why did Islam, still does, especially, [48:02] historically, why was there such regulation of sex [48:05] to married people? [48:06] And a lot of the focus was, well, [48:08] the reality was is children born out [48:09] of wedlock suffered profoundly. [48:12] Women who had children born out of wedlock [48:14] suffered in very profound ways. [48:16] And so ensuring rights of children [48:20] is one of the main focuses of like, [48:21] OK, here's why we're going to regulate sex [48:23] in these particular ways. [48:25] And then I think likewise, when we [48:28] look at the concept of abortion, for instance, [48:31] it comes out very interesting that both the Jewish [48:34] and Islamic tradition have the same initial hypothetical [48:39] about how you then interpret if abortion is or isn't [48:42] permissible, which is like a pregnant woman [48:44] is attacked and miscarries. [48:47] And the difference between miscarriage and abortion, [48:49] historically, is not huge. [48:51] But it goes OK, well then what are the obligations here? [48:55] Is it actually murder that has occurred or not? [48:59] And does that depend on-- it depends [49:00] on a number of different things. [49:02] Likewise, I think there was real lived [49:03] experiences of a woman going through childbirth [49:06] and about to die. [49:07] The reality is that childbirth, historically, I [49:10] don't need to tell you, but it was a dangerous prospect. [49:14] And so how do we balance these competing needs of the unborn [49:20] and a living woman? [49:22] And Islamic law came out in particular ways [49:24] to say, well, the woman, the mother, [49:28] is already a daughter and a wife and potentially a mother [49:31] and has friendships, like she is an established life, even [49:35] if this infant is ensouled. [49:38] And so we are going to prioritize her life [49:41] for these specific reasons. [49:42] But I think it was really just the actual lived experiences [49:45] of people. [49:46] Likewise, I think it's not just this question [49:48] of impermissible or permissible, but women [49:50] went through miscarriage, and women still [49:51] do through various stages. [49:53] And so then, for at least Muslims, [49:55] there are certain obligations. [49:57] Does it need to be buried, for instance, well, [49:59] with a very early miscarriage, there's not really much to bury. [50:02] But then what are the obligations of burial? [50:05] How does inheritance work? [50:07] Those are all key factors of a functioning society [50:11] and trying to create guidance for folks. [50:14] And I think, for me at least, when I think about religion [50:17] and religious law, what it's doing at best, hopefully, [50:21] is, A, humanizing each other, but, B, [50:24] really providing guidance when people most need it. [50:28] So when someone has died, a marriage, a birth, [50:32] what is the guidance here for how we proceed? [50:35] CARA ROCK-SINGER: And I'll just maybe tag on [50:37] to that, because I think a lot of what you said [50:39] would also apply in the Jewish context [50:41] and many other religious contexts too. [50:42] But also not just what are we obligated to do, [50:46] but also-- because not everybody thinks about religion [50:49] in terms of obligation. [50:50] That is like a certain kind of boundedness that may or may not [50:55] fit people in a kind of liberal, American context, for example. [51:01] But what kind of meaning can be made? [51:04] Or how do people mourn? [51:05] Or how do people cope? [51:07] It's also part of this story. [51:09] And the other thing I wanted to add was we might-- [51:12] I think this could be said for many traditions, [51:14] but I'll just speak from the Jewish tradition. [51:17] One thing you might say that Judaism is, or at least [51:19] its origin story coming back, is a family story. [51:22] It's a story of Abraham and Isaac, [51:24] and Jacob, and the matriarchs. [51:26] So there's a way in which the entire making and building [51:30] of a people that becomes in this relationship with their God, [51:35] that is a story that is predicated before law on family [51:40] and the struggles to create those families. [51:45] LISA HARRIS: Thank you. [51:46] Just a reminder that in about 8 to 10 minutes, [51:49] we'll start taking your questions. [51:51] So just raise your hand if you have something on a card [51:53] that you would like to get picked up. [51:56] Oh, and it looks like some folks may need cards. [51:58] Yes? [52:00] So if there's a way to get cards over, especially on this side, [52:02] that would be great. [52:03] Thank you. [52:04] So let's turn a little bit to the issue [52:07] of religious pluralism. [52:09] How should we think about, or how should we [52:11] decide which reproductive health decisions belong [52:16] to an individual's personal beliefs or conscience, [52:20] and which ones might need guidance of religious mentors, [52:26] and which ones might be regulated by a state? [52:30] How do those boundaries, how do you think they should happen? [52:33] Or how does law across different religions think about them? [52:36] And what do we do today when we may [52:40] be asked to follow a law or policy grounded [52:43] in someone's religious traditions that are not our own? [52:47] Do you want to-- [52:48] let's start in the middle of this time. [52:50] Yeah, go for it. [52:51] CARA ROCK-SINGER: I feel like I'm the last one for this. [52:53] I was like, I just described things. [52:55] I'm an ethnographer. [52:57] You're more in the ethics realm, and you're [53:00] more in the law realm. [53:01] OK, fine. [53:01] I'll give it a shot. [53:03] I think my answer is a little bit, as I noted before, [53:06] to flip this on its head and say that so [53:10] much of this intersection of religion and reproduction [53:14] is actually-- [53:15] does not involve the state. [53:17] Of course, we can't escape the state. [53:18] The state creates a kind of framework, [53:22] whether it's the American-- the United States state, [53:25] or otherwise, that we have to work within. [53:28] But as I said before, there are lots of things [53:31] around issues of birth control, issues [53:34] of birthing that don't come down to state intervention. [53:38] And so I can tell like stories about these questions, [53:48] but I think maybe I'll just-- [53:50] maybe I'll pass the potato and come back, [53:53] because I think the question you're asking [53:55] is one that wants to center the state. [53:59] I mean, I can talk about the kind of religious responses [54:01] and Jewish responses in the wake of-- [54:03] in the wake of the Dobbs ruling, and the kind [54:05] of mobilizing of ideas of religious freedom, [54:12] like through Jewish law. [54:13] So if that is something that answers your-- [54:16] LISA HARRIS: Sure. [54:17] CARA ROCK-SINGER: Yeah, so, I mean, [54:19] there's a really wonderful documentary called Under God, [54:22] which is about the response to the Indiana abortion ban. [54:26] If folks are interested, that works [54:29] through some of these legal issues and Jewish activist [54:31] responses to it in really interesting and powerful ways. [54:35] But essentially, and you can correct my legal-- [54:40] American legal speak because it's probably quite rudimentary, [54:44] but ideas about-- we have conflicting ideas [54:47] about religious freedom and the establishment of religion, [54:50] and yet certain religions seem to be prioritized and seem [54:55] to go unmarked as religious, whereas other people's [54:58] religions do not. [55:00] This is a large topic, but there's [55:03] been a way in which this idea or this test that what counts [55:06] as your religious consciences about a sincerely [55:10] held belief, that's the language that's used. [55:12] And one thing I'd say is that belief is not necessarily [55:15] the litmus test for every religious community [55:18] that is coming from a particular Christian context. [55:23] However, there has been moves to create space and cutouts [55:30] for people to have their sincerely held religious beliefs [55:33] respected against state intervention. [55:36] And when Dobbs happened, it was the opportunity [55:41] that some folks were waiting for it to really test [55:44] this religious freedom clause. [55:47] It's called a RFRA, which I love to say, RFRA, Religious Freedom [55:52] Restoration Act, RFRA, to really turn it on its head [55:56] and say, OK, well, now, the Dobbs ruling, [55:59] is really establishing a very particular religious idea [56:03] on everybody else. [56:04] And so I'm going to try and say my religious freedom [56:06] should be restored using this very same clause. [56:09] And it's clever and it's powerful [56:11] and it's gotten some traction. [56:14] And yet, I also think, for someone like me who does not [56:19] feel themselves obligated by law, [56:23] because that is not a structure that I've-- [56:24] obligated by Jewish law, because that is not [56:26] a structure by which I define my Jewishness and my-- [56:30] it feels like it's instrumental. [56:32] And I'm like, OK, it's good. [56:34] Instrumentalize it, fight the fight. [56:36] But also I think there's a danger in reducing or not [56:43] saying and, yes and. [56:46] You're now defining religiosity on somebody else's terms [56:50] in order to do what I think is, ultimately, important. [56:53] But anyway, so that is my one state message, [56:57] but I will still stake out my ground as the bottom up. [57:01] So much rich conversation should be [57:04] had about things that are not about state power. [57:12] TERRI LAWS: My answer is really quite short [57:15] because you did a great job. [57:17] And the reality is that I am quite [57:21] satisfied with the state regulating because we do not [57:28] treat religions equally. [57:31] And because we do not, even, even within. [57:35] So the African-American experience [57:38] is that even within evangelical Christianity, [57:42] they're not the same. [57:43] Race makes a difference. [57:45] And because it makes a difference, [57:46] I'm quite satisfied with the way that we live this out. [57:54] REBEA BENHALIM: Yeah. [57:55] I am not satisfied. [57:58] I think I tend to lean towards a more [58:02] accommodation of religious pluralism, [58:04] and I don't see our current system accommodating that. [58:07] I do think I agree with you that I think there [58:09] is a danger to the RFRA claims. [58:11] I've argued the RFRA claims in my own scholarship, [58:14] but they're narrow, and they only [58:16] create exceptions for people who do [58:18] have these particularly sincerely held [58:20] religious beliefs. [58:22] And it's not that I don't think there should [58:25] be state regulation, and I think it is a hard thing to balance. [58:28] So for instance, state regulations around sperm donors [58:33] seem really good public policy to me. [58:36] We had it be unregulated, and then we [58:40] had sperm donors father hundreds of children. [58:43] And then because we also allow for, at the time, allowed, [58:46] in some states still do closed donations. [58:49] They didn't know if they were siblings. [58:51] And I think that's a legitimate public policy concern as to, [58:55] OK, we should probably regulate that. [58:57] And I think that within the embryo donation realm, egg [59:03] and sperm donor donation realm, there's [59:05] increasingly shifts to regulation [59:07] that they have to be open, that we're not [59:09] going to allow for closed donations or adoptions. [59:13] And that's based on the well-being of those children [59:15] as they become adults, wanting to have access [59:18] to who they came from, and at least medical information. [59:20] So I think there's really good public policy reasons. [59:24] And that might cut against somebody's particular belief. [59:27] Like someone might feel that they [59:28] should be allowed to donate without ever being known. [59:32] And we're not going-- so there is-- [59:33] and I think even in the realm of abortion, [59:36] I don't think abortion should just be unregulated [59:40] up until your birth. [59:42] And I think most people probably actually [59:44] don't hold that position. [59:46] I do think that some other countries have [59:48] come to different alternatives or resolutions that [59:51] are interesting. [59:52] I don't necessarily know that they [59:54] could be achieved in the American model, [59:55] but for instance, both Israel and Germany [59:59] have really different approaches to how they regulate abortion. [60:02] Where the premise is that abortion is illegal. [60:05] And then there is a whole list, a very extensive list [60:10] of exceptions that pretty much facilitate it [60:13] when somebody needs it. [60:15] And a lot of that came out of compromise [60:18] between the secularists and the religious parties. [60:22] I don't see that happening in the United States right now. [60:24] I see instead, we're just like, well, [60:26] if you get enough power in your state, have at it. [60:30] I lean towards let's find compromise. [60:33] Let's find spaces that actually do [60:35] accommodate as much as can be done, [60:37] this range of perspectives. [60:38] And the other thing I'll add about public policy, [60:41] and this is just from an Islamic perspective, [60:44] from an Islamic perspective, public policy is a very, [60:47] at least within the Maliki school, [60:49] Maslaha is the public good is a reason to legislate. [60:53] And I think that when we look, I'll be specific about abortion, [60:56] it can be expanded out. [60:58] When we look at historical prohibitions on abortion, [61:01] they make a lot of sense. [61:03] Abortion was very dangerous. [61:05] Abortion was not a safe medical procedure [61:08] for much of human history. [61:10] And so if you were trying to balance the dangers of pregnancy [61:12] versus the dangers of abortion, from a public policy [61:16] perspective, it was like, well, there's [61:17] a really good chance the woman's going to die in the procedure. [61:20] That's really different than our current context, where when [61:25] abortion is legal, it is safe. [61:28] It is safer than pregnancy. [61:30] And we see that maternal and fetal outcomes and early infant [61:36] life, all of those metrics actually go up. [61:39] All of them are improved when abortion is legal. [61:42] And so even if one is opposed, maybe [61:45] from a moral perspective to abortion, [61:48] there's also the moral argument of but all of health outcomes [61:52] will be better. [61:53] And I think that kind of goes back [61:54] to, again, why is this particular a religious question? [61:57] I think religion should be concerned [61:58] with the general health of the society. [62:01] CARA ROCK-SINGER: It's interesting. [62:02] Yeah. [62:04] I wonder as-- my response to, at least [62:07] the first part of what you said was for the American state [62:09] to do something along the lines of the model of Israel, [62:12] for example, would be to admit that the separation of church [62:16] and state is much more selectively porous [62:18] than we would like to, and that would just be a non-starter. [62:22] REBEA BENHALIM: I don't know that-- [62:24] I don't know that-- [62:24] I don't know if I'm on. [62:25] I don't know that it's achievable, [62:27] but I do think that maybe what is [62:30] achievable is having more robust dialogue of thinking [62:33] through legislation that does have compromise, [62:40] rather than just being in a black and white scenario. [62:44] TERRI LAWS: So let me clarify. [62:45] What I'm satisfied with is that's the state where we are. [62:49] That's because I think I'm not convinced that we can do better, [62:54] yet, presently. [62:56] REBEA BENHALIM: Yeah. [62:57] The other thing I'll push is that I [62:59] think that the American legal paradigm and conversation [63:02] around it is way too oriented around rights. [63:06] Not to say that rights aren't important, [63:08] but when we look at other legal systems, [63:10] like the concept of duties is also paired with it, [63:14] and we don't see that conversation very often of like, [63:17] what duties do we have? [63:19] And I will say that as a pregnant woman, [63:21] in my experiences with pregnancy, [63:23] I felt both that I had rights to my body, [63:26] but also a lot of responsibility. [63:28] CARA ROCK-SINGER: I mean, I think [63:29] another thing that's interesting about reproduction and religion [63:32] is that it accentuates the extent to which we are not [63:35] autonomous. [63:36] You'll never feel less autonomous than, [63:40] at least that was my experience. [63:42] And you're dependent, and there's [63:45] something dependent on you. [63:47] And I think we would have to really rethink [63:49] a lot of the liberal assumptions about our values [63:54] as autonomous, independent subjects [63:59] to do state regulation differently. [64:03] LISA HARRIS: Or at least to have a tolerance, even [64:05] a little tolerance for complexity. [64:07] That's what you're getting at all. [64:09] And I think what I've heard today [64:11] is that there's a lot of nuance and complexity [64:13] running through many kinds of religious positions [64:16] that get flattened in service of something, [64:20] that something I'm really interested in. [64:22] And we have questions related to that. [64:24] So let me-- something. [64:28] The flattening of complexity and service of something [64:30] is what I'm hearing a lot of today. [64:33] What some folks want us to talk about, [64:35] which we haven't explicitly named, is gender. [64:39] I'm going to read three different wonderful questions, [64:43] and I'll ask you to speak to whatever grabs you about them. [64:48] One is that most religious texts were written by men, [64:53] and what do you think is the role played by male awe and fear [64:58] in imposing rules and control? [65:01] So that's male as spectator of something [65:04] going on in a female body. [65:06] Related, given the patriarchal roots of many major religions, [65:11] as well as the ongoing dominance of male voices and leadership, [65:14] to what extent is reproduction actually a gender issue? [65:17] Maybe all we're actually talking about [65:19] now is gender and not religion. [65:21] That's what this person is asking. [65:23] And then one last twist on the gender question [65:26] is that we've been talking about reproduction as [65:28] if it's something that only happens [65:29] inside a body with a uterus, or a female identifying body, [65:36] but that is not the case, and men or people with sperm [65:41] are reproducers as well, and how come [65:44] we're not talking about that? [65:47] Go. [65:48] CARA ROCK-SINGER: Good. [65:49] So many things. [65:51] I feel actually eager on this. [65:52] I'll try. [65:53] All right, let's see. [65:54] I'm going to see if I can loop them together. [65:58] So yes, we are-- [66:03] we happen to be talking about patriarchal traditions, [66:06] by the way, so, too, with our legal system and government. [66:12] However, we are talking-- when we talk about tradition, [66:20] we talk about a long historical arc [66:26] that has been shaped and reshaped [66:27] with changing contextual, with changing scientific knowledge, [66:32] with all kinds of different changes over time. [66:37] And I think one of the things that the question about men [66:43] writing texts and rules of control, perhaps, [66:48] we didn't make clear enough, or that I want to push at, [66:50] is just that, at least in the Jewish case, [66:54] and I think in the Islamic case, from the history [66:56] that I know, the idea of rules of control [67:02] is much more of a particular modern preoccupation, by which I [67:08] mean that in pre-modern contexts there was a lot less [67:14] insistence that there be a kind of religious regulation, [67:19] or regulation, in general, happening [67:21] in all spheres of life. [67:23] So there's a fun little vignette in my book [67:26] about a religious midwife who wants to figure out, [67:31] how do I attend a birth as a religious woman? [67:34] What do I do if it's Shabbat? [67:35] And I know the texts talk about what a birthing person should do [67:41] on Shabbat, but the texts don't really talk about the midwife [67:44] when they're-- [67:44] what are they supposed to do? [67:45] It wasn't-- so she tells a story. [67:47] Long story short, she goes to this big, big rabbi, big rabbi, [67:50] thick Brooklyn accent story. [67:53] And essentially, he's like, I don't ask someone who knows. [67:58] And she's like, and then I went and got ice cream [68:00] because I was so sad. [68:01] And divine providence meant that the guy in the ice cream shop, [68:04] he said his aunt or his cousin or somebody was actually [68:07] an OB/GYN and she knew, and she's-- [68:09] and so it was this moment where it [68:11] was like this rupture in our expectations [68:14] that the big rabbi would have us say so. [68:16] He was like, I don't know. [68:17] Ask someone who belongs in a Birth That's not me. [68:20] I don't know anything. [68:21] So I think that would be point one. [68:25] Gender and not religion. [68:27] I think, again, we're dealing with large social forces that [68:30] are really mobile and moving and not static. [68:35] I think religion is everywhere and everything because it's [68:40] about the fundamental. [68:41] I mean, if we think about religion [68:43] as what ways of distinguishing us [68:49] and them, sacred and profane, dirty and clean, [68:52] all of these kinds of distinctions. [68:53] This is my way of thinking about religion. [68:56] There isn't not religion, and, maybe, [68:58] that is not something that doesn't appeal to someone who [69:01] has not done a PhD in religion. [69:03] But I think some of the very ideas about gender, [69:07] as an idea, come from our religious texts, [69:08] and our religious categories, and are also reinforced [69:11] divisions. [69:12] So I don't know if-- [69:15] tomato, tomato, you can call it what you want, [69:17] but it's about creating and policing divisions. [69:21] And I think, ultimately, it's about these kind of, whatever [69:25] you call it, these kind of negotiations of power [69:30] and divisions and that. [69:33] So I'm not sure if that satisfies anyone [69:35] without a PhD in religion. [69:37] And then in terms of men in reproduction, [69:40] we haven't talked so much about it, but there's tons. [69:44] I mean, you talked about sperm donation and things like that. [69:46] There's some fascinating and troubling in my mind cases [69:49] around whether you can use sperm from soldiers [69:55] that have died in war to create, to implant and to create [70:00] grandkids. [70:01] And there's all kinds of domains of reproductive questions, [70:05] and that's in the ethical and anthropological. [70:11] Perhaps, we talked about femininity [70:13] as this locus of power, which maybe also shaped gender [70:16] as the central concern in a kind of feminine way. [70:20] But yeah, reproduction like religion in my view, [70:23] maybe I'm just putting myself at the center [70:25] of my own little universe, is the center of so many elements [70:29] of our world. [70:30] So yes, men reproduce too. [70:33] And there's lots of different experiences [70:36] and regulations and problems that are to be explored, [70:40] and people do, and there's more to be done. [70:45] LISA HARRIS: Who would like to go? [70:47] REBEA BENHALIM: I guess I'll jump in. [70:51] Yeah, I think reproduction is a gendered question [70:53] is interesting. [70:54] I actually try in my work not to exclusively frame it as gender. [70:58] I think there is an inherent way in which [71:00] when we're talking about birth, IVF, abortion, surrogacy, [71:03] that we are talking about women's bodies, [71:06] because that's just the nature of how it works, [71:10] and it's a very physical experience. [71:13] But that said, my paper on contracts and sexual access, [71:17] it's a men and women's issue. [71:18] And I think actually like abortion, [71:20] and I think all of these are actually across the spectrum [71:24] issues for men and women. [71:26] And within the Islamic context, there's [71:28] this interesting sort of ruling about, [71:31] and I think also going back to state regulation, [71:33] at least I totally agree with what you said, that Islam, [71:36] we're not talking-- [71:37] no one's going to, even with the most restrictive position, [71:41] no one's going to jail for an abortion, [71:44] at most someone is paying a fine. [71:46] And there is a one ruling within the Maliki school [71:49] that if a woman has an abortion, she [71:51] needs to pay her husband compensation, reflective of his, [71:57] otherwise, paternal rights and the rights that have been lost. [72:00] So there is an interesting dynamic on that front, [72:04] not that I necessarily agree with them. [72:06] I'm not saying we should legislate. [72:07] I'm just saying that there is an interesting dynamic that [72:10] is happening there. [72:11] The other thing that I'll say, and I think [72:13] goes back to your story as well, is [72:15] that when you read through the classical text, [72:17] we see that while it is largely patriarchal, [72:21] I don't want to be disingenuous and suggest that it's not, [72:24] you do see female scholars writing on these issues [72:28] within Islamic law. [72:29] You do have women jurists, and even where [72:33] it's predominantly male, you see them consulting with midwives, [72:38] and you see pretty extensive discourses [72:39] of them having consulted with midwives [72:42] about the state of gestation, or what happens in gestation. [72:46] There's really interesting theories [72:47] that now we know we're not correct. [72:49] So there was like a theory that semen helps water the baby. [72:54] That came actually out of the midwives. [72:55] And so there was a recommendation [72:59] of increased intercourse throughout pregnancy [73:02] to help keep the baby watered. [73:04] So there's interesting things like that, [73:05] but it's really well documented within the classical text, [73:08] that there is this dialogue that is [73:10] happening with female practitioners [73:12] within these realms. [73:14] And then likewise, even if we talk about just menstruation, [73:17] or what is menstruation, or isn't menstruation, [73:20] it's very nitty gritty, they're looking at menstrual fluids. [73:24] They're like women are coming to these scholars with an example [73:27] of their menstrual blood and/or their post-partum [73:31] and wanting to know, OK, like, am I, [73:34] for sakes of prayer and things, what can or I can't do? [73:38] Are these cloths concerning? [73:39] Is this cloth-- so you see full dialogues on that. [73:42] They're not shying away from it. [73:44] I do think that in the contemporary period, [73:46] there is a real need for more women's voices [73:49] and to highlight more women's lived experiences [73:53] navigating religion and reproduction [73:55] and having more authority. [73:57] I think that women, in fact, historically, did [73:59] have quite a bit of autonomy in terms of there [74:03] wasn't a state regulating it. [74:04] And so they were making decisions for themselves. [74:08] Now, sometimes, there were social pressures. [74:10] I don't mean to discount that, or communal pressures, [74:12] but I don't want to presume that it was always [74:14] just a male authority figure telling [74:16] women what they need to do. [74:18] CARA ROCK-SINGER: Add one quick thing, [74:19] which was, I feel like in the name of justice [74:22] also, to just clarify, at least some [74:24] of the language that when we're thinking [74:26] about historical traditions and canonical, like Jewish law, [74:30] it's presuming a cis heterosexual kind of structure, [74:35] and that I think that's important to name. [74:38] And I think in lived experience, that is-- [74:42] it is not always-- [74:44] gender and sex may or may not be aligned [74:47] in ways that are reflective of, I think, [74:50] what we've talked about so far. [74:52] But I think there are also movements [74:56] and reproductive justice movements [74:57] within Jewish communities and other communities as well. [75:00] I'm just speaking from the ones that I study that are really [75:04] invested in thinking about being more expansive, [75:08] and how do we take traditions and make them spaces. [75:12] What do we draw on to make them spaces [75:14] that are also accommodating of non-binary and trans people [75:21] as well. [75:22] That just hasn't been the center of what we've talked about, [75:25] in part, I think, because of the framing in terms [75:27] of religious law. [75:29] And I think it's especially important in this moment [75:31] with real restrictions and legislation that is particularly [75:39] anti-trans to even just take a moment to really just make clear [75:44] that there are spaces within religious contexts, [75:48] religious law, religious legislation, religious activism [75:51] also, that are doing those kinds of justice projects as well. [75:55] And that we don't necessarily-- to the question of gender [75:58] and reproduction, I should have probably started [76:01] with sex versus gender and that. [76:04] So I just wanted to make sure I put that in there. [76:09] LISA HARRIS: Thank you. [76:11] Do you want to address that? [76:12] TERRI LAWS: One small thing. [76:14] The reality in the communities of concern that I'm working for, [76:20] about it's an emerging conversation. [76:24] These are emerging conversations. [76:26] In the pulpits, it is primarily-- oh, I'm sorry. [76:30] It is primarily men. [76:32] However, scholars who are doing the work are primarily women. [76:39] LISA HARRIS: This is kind of a historical and logistical [76:41] question. [76:42] So across all the different faiths [76:44] that you're representing or talking about, [76:47] how do you think about technologies that, in no way [76:51] were close to existing at a time that key texts were [76:55] written or delivered? [76:57] How do people figure out what's OK and what's not OK? [77:04] IVF was the example here, but it really [77:05] could be anything that wasn't conceived of, no pun intended, [77:09] at a time when those texts became foundational? [77:12] Who's deciding this? [77:13] Who's authoritative? [77:15] CARA ROCK-SINGER: I love a technology question, [77:17] but do you want to go first? [77:19] I was like, I don't want to speak for IVF. [77:21] So yes, my whole book is framed around technology. [77:24] So I got very excited. [77:26] I would say there have always been technologies and always [77:30] been that birth is less-- reproduction is less [77:33] natural than we presume, feeding is less natural than we presume. [77:38] There's always interventions. [77:40] There's wet nursing. [77:40] There's a million things that we could talk about, [77:42] but just to stay very close to the spirit of the question, [77:45] I'm going to reign it in. [77:49] What people do is they look for precedents [77:50] in textual traditions. [77:52] They see what are the relevant-- [77:56] so what are the relevant laws. [77:57] So let's say around IVF, we have to understand questions around, [78:02] for example, in Jewish law, what defines the mother? [78:05] Is the mother defined based on the egg? [78:09] Is the mother based on who carries the baby? [78:12] Well, let's look at the text and see. [78:14] Or what are the concerns around like fatherhood [78:19] and where sperm comes from? [78:22] And how do we-- so people look for these relevant elements. [78:26] And maybe I'll now just pass it to you [78:27] and look for elements in traditions, [78:30] because IVF or reproductive technology [78:33] is hardly the first place that religious traditions have [78:37] had to adapt to all kinds of changes. [78:40] It's just a real flashy one, where you really see, [78:44] like baby used to be made inside body. [78:46] Now baby is outside body. [78:48] But actually, religious traditions [78:51] have always been adapting to technological change, [78:54] whether it's like the printing press, or the internet. [78:58] There are always these ways in which-- [79:00] so I almost want to make it a little less strange, [79:03] but the specifics is probably-- [79:05] I'll pass to you in terms of the specific examples [79:08] of legal precedent. [79:10] REBEA BENHALIM: I completely agree with the way [79:12] you characterized it, and actually [79:13] don't have that much more to add, [79:15] other than to say that I think that, I guess, [79:17] the two realms that come to mind, [79:19] and I already touched on this a little bit, [79:20] so I won't go particularly more. [79:21] But I do think that there are important ways in which [79:24] the Islamic tradition has not really [79:26] thought about the differences of abortion today [79:28] versus historically in regards to danger and health care. [79:32] So I do think that that's an area of-- we [79:34] don't think of it as a new technology, [79:36] but there are new technologies associated around it [79:40] that make it different, that I think are important. [79:43] We also can detect pregnancy much, much earlier. [79:46] And so I think that also changes the conversation. [79:48] You can detect pregnancy up to a week [79:51] before you've missed your period. [79:54] And at that point, the miscarriage rate is over 50%. [79:57] And so that-- [79:58] LISA HARRIS: You can actually know what's in a uterus now. [80:00] REBEA BENHALIM: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [80:02] We only know what's in uterus. [80:03] We know what it looks. [80:03] So I do think there's important ways that [80:05] can be thought through. [80:06] But exactly right that with things like IVF, [80:09] they already had this idea, and I don't-- [80:12] historically, that an embryo blastocyst [80:16] existed within a uterus before it implanted. [80:20] So then we can have a distinction [80:21] between pre-implantation, post-implantation. [80:25] We have these texts that refer to it as water [80:27] in this initial period. [80:28] And so there are ways-- and I do appreciate, particularly [80:31] within Islamic and Jewish law, that a distinction is [80:33] made between in utero and in vitro, [80:37] that there is something we're going to treat it differently [80:39] if it is outside of a womb. [80:41] I do think that the physicality of that is important, [80:44] at least to my mind, but we do. [80:46] We build on precedent, and I think [80:47] we build on precedent in interesting ways. [80:50] So having the example, for instance, of Hagar and Sarah, [80:53] or the Jewish matriarchs who went through infertility, OK, [80:56] well, what did they do when they went through infertility? [80:58] They prayed, but they also well, he has a child with Hagar. [81:02] And so then there's interesting questions of well, [81:05] does that then lean itself towards permissibility [81:07] of surrogacy within the Islamic tradition? [81:09] This is not a majority opinion, but there's a minority opinion [81:12] of are there ways that we could use [81:13] marriage contract differently? [81:14] So where maybe the marriage is not consummated, but vis-a-vis [81:17] a contract, we're actually going to establish [81:19] two mothers for the child. [81:21] The mother who gestated the child and the mother who [81:25] is the biological child. [81:27] So there's ways in which these classical, either legal tools, [81:32] or legal reasoning, are used to then think [81:34] about these newer technologies. [81:41] TERRI LAWS: What I would add here [81:42] is that much of the conversation for, again, communities [81:46] of concern, is really about access. [81:49] It's who has access to certain technologies. [81:54] And I mean, there certainly are costs, who's interested, [81:59] and it's a matter of, again, in my mind, [82:03] it's a matter of justice still. [82:07] I'll leave it at that. [82:08] LISA HARRIS: Yeah. [82:08] No, I think what you have been saying persistently, [82:11] and I want to make sure everybody's hearing is [82:13] that what are and are not religious questions [82:16] depend, for you, depends on is justice being centered or not. [82:21] REBEA BENHALIM: Would you mind elaborating a little bit more? [82:24] I'd be curious into the particularities [82:26] within the reproductive technology context [82:29] or within-- yeah. [82:30] TERRI LAWS: Yeah. [82:30] So when we're talking about IVF is very expensive, [82:33] you need time away from a job. [82:36] I'm cold. [82:37] I'm sorry. [82:38] It's a little cold. [82:39] You need time away from your job. [82:41] You need a partner who's willing. [82:48] I mean, it's a whole-- it's the whole list of the actual-- [82:52] LISA HARRIS: And even the technology itself, [82:54] the outcomes, even once people have access, [82:56] the outcomes are not equivalent because the technology [82:58] was based in bodies that were largely older white women's [83:04] bodies. [83:05] TERRI LAWS: And I was going to just [83:07] talk about the idea of class, that in Black communities, [83:12] there's disproportionate perspective [83:14] or disproportionate percentage of families are not, [83:19] and it's not affordability. [83:23] There certainly are middle class women [83:25] who are more likely to be participating [83:29] in that particular technology and are happy and understand [83:35] their privilege in needing to do so, or choosing to do so. [83:40] But it actually isn't much of a conversation [83:45] in the religious environment itself. [83:48] These are conversations that occur with women [83:51] amongst themselves while they give each other tips. [83:54] So in that way, it's religious in the sense [83:57] that that's part of what you do. [83:59] In African-American churches, not just, but in [84:02] African-American churches, you call each other sister [84:05] and brother. [84:05] And so you want to help your sister use the technology [84:10] that you've learned about, learnings [84:12] are always passed along. [84:14] That information is shared. [84:17] I'll stop there. [84:19] LISA HARRIS: We are just about out of time, [84:20] and I'm so grateful for the questions I want [84:22] to ask, pose one last question. [84:24] Maybe we'll each have a minute to answer, [84:27] to end on maybe a slightly optimistic point, but are there [84:32] points of consensus across all three [84:34] of the religious traditions that you are representing, [84:38] with respect to any aspect of the conversation [84:42] that we've had today? [84:43] What would you like to highlight that is [84:45] shared across all traditions? [84:47] I've heard a few things. [84:48] I've heard religion as a way to alleviate suffering, religion [84:54] as a way to solve problems, a religion as a way [84:57] to understand the big questions and mysteries [85:01] of the human experience. [85:03] But what would you say might be shared [85:04] across all the traditions, even if expressed differently? [85:12] TERRI LAWS: Actually, what came to mind [85:16] for me is it's a religion in health response, I'm sorry, [85:22] but the use of yoga as a way to work across religions. [85:34] In some conservative congregations, [85:41] yoga is seen as inviting a different kind of spirit [85:44] into your body, and yet, we learn from the work of scholar [85:52] by the name of Pamela Evans, I'm sorry, Stephanie Evans, [85:56] that people who we know, women of color who [86:03] we know, Rosa Parks, Tina Turner, they [86:11] used yoga in order to prepare themselves [86:16] for what they were doing. [86:17] It is-- so in that way, they're sharing a religion that [86:22] may or may not be their own, and yet see it as a way to health [86:28] and seeking justice or seeking equality, [86:32] and that has just stuck with me. [86:37] Yeah. [86:42] CARA ROCK-SINGER: I would say that kinship is really central, [86:47] and it might be making biological kin. [86:50] It might be the kinship of brother and sister, [86:53] but that actually a lot of what religion is about [86:57] is community and making relations. [87:02] LISA HARRIS: Last word. [87:03] REBEA BENHALIM: I think this might [87:05] be the most challenging question is [87:06] the person who stood for pluralism [87:09] and lots of difference. [87:10] But the thing that immediately came to mind, [87:12] maybe this is like full circle back [87:13] to your introductory remarks, is that, at least [87:16] as having talked with many of my friends, [87:18] this is entirely anecdotal, is that most people experience [87:22] birth as holy. [87:24] I would say that it may even transcend the three traits [87:27] traditions. [87:28] I have friends who identify as being atheist or agnostic, [87:32] who, when talking about witnessing birth [87:33] or experiencing birth, experience something holy. [87:37] LISA HARRIS: Thank you. [87:38] That's a wonderful place to end. [87:39] Thank you all for being here and grateful for your engagement. [87:43] [APPLAUSE]