Building an Empire with Risk, Rage & 200 Phone Calls A Day | Ari Emanuel, WME & TKO

凭借冒险、狂怒与日拨200通电话缔造帝国 | Ari Emanuel、WME 与 TKO Ari Emanuel 剖析了缔造娱乐帝国背后的高风险博弈与战术布局，包括以42亿美元大胆收购 UFC、应对不断崩解的版权市场，以及通过 WhatsApp 敲定具有转折意义的 ESPN 交易。他详细讲述了对 William Morris Agency 长达四年的董事会攻坚战、通过“主动闯入车流”来制造机缘的处事哲学，以及 George Gilder 有关内容稀缺性的洞见如何指引了 Endeavor 的 IP 自主持有战略。此外，Emanuel 还分享了个人层面的转变，讲述数十年的心理治疗及一次致幻剂体验如何帮助他化解了因手足竞争和童年诵读困难所滋生的自我执念，使他得以放下对留名后世的执着，同时依旧保持着永不停歇的竞争驱动力。 Ari Emanuel 与 Silver Lake 以42亿美元收购了 UFC，随后与 Disney 和 ESPN 敲定了一项每年3亿美元的突破性国内版权协议，印证了他们关于体育直播能提升流媒体用户留存率的判断。 (7:30) 在收购 IMG 期间，Silver Lake 的 Egon Durban 绕过了阶梯式加价，直接将出价跳升至24亿美元，证明了开出明显溢价的高价如何能够迅速淘汰竞标对手。 (32:53) Endeavor 在意识到分发渠道将不断激增、而优质直播内容与无剧本 IP 将捕获最终价值后，从传统的艺人经纪业务拓展至直接持有 IP 所有权。 (54:00) Emanuel 将高频通话节奏——整天反复联络人脉并“连轴打电话”——视为其制造机缘并加速交易落地的核心运作系统。 (42:17)

Ari Emanuel argues that building an entertainment and sports conglomerate required pivoting from traditional talent representation to owning premier live assets, executing aggressive high-conviction transactions, and trading destructive personal rage for operational endurance. Pivoting from Talent Representation to Asset Ownership (56:36) Emanuel traced his operating philosophy to George Gilder's 1992 thesis in *Life After Television*, which predicted that while distribution pipelines would multiply, the supply of elite content creators would remain scarce. While studying earlier agency leaders like Michael Ovitz at Creative Artists Agency, Emanuel questioned why Ovitz packaged talent without acquiring adjacent enterprise assets such as major advertising agencies. Alongside partners Patrick Whitesell and Mark Shapiro, Emanuel concluded that representation alone capped enterprise value, necessitating direct ownership of live entertainment and intellectual property. Anticipating that subscription video-on-demand services would eventually introduce advertising tiers and rely on live sports to prevent subscriber churn, Endeavor acquired IMG for $2.4 billion and the UFC for $4.2 billion. Emanuel later expanded this logic into his experiential business, MARI, which manages properties such as the Miami Open, Frieze art fairs, and Barrett-Jackson auctions. That strategy was guided by an early insight from Elon Musk: live, in-person experiences represent the only entertainment sector immune to artificial intelligence disintermediation. Aggressive Takeovers and High-Conviction Pricing (32:53) Emanuel applied aggressive tactics to corporate acquisitions, citing Harvard Business School professor Nitin Nohria's doctrine that genuine mergers do not exist—only conquerors and conquered. During Endeavor's four-year pursuit of the 100-year-old William Morris Agency, Emanuel aligned with key division heads, ousted CEO Jim Wiatt through a $24 million buyout in 2009, and blocked internal succession. The takeover saddled Endeavor with up to $120 million in liabilities—including $44 million in buyouts, a $35 million lost real estate lawsuit, and executive bonuses—during the 2008–2009 credit freeze, forcing Emanuel to secure emergency survival financing from Russell Goldsmith at City National Bank. In valuation battles, Emanuel adopted Silver Lake managing partner Egon Durban’s philosophy against timid bidding. When competing against Peter Chernin’s $1.9 billion bid for IMG, Durban preempted rival offers by bidding $2.3 to $2.4 billion, arguing that acquirers never remember an extra $400 million if the overarching thesis proves correct. Emanuel noted that while deal models routinely miss unpredictable variables—such as IMG's college sports division yielding little while international operations exploded—decisive capital commitments consistently beat incremental caution. Rescuing the UFC Deal on the Brink (9:41) Closing the $4.2 billion UFC acquisition pushed Emanuel to physical illness and relied on an equity and debt package backed by Silver Lake, Michael Dell, and KKR founders Henry Kravis and George Roberts. The transaction's financial model nearly collapsed immediately after closing when the domestic media rights market froze: Rupert Murdoch agreed to sell 21st Century Fox assets to Disney, AT&T shifted corporate focus, and an internal Amazon committee slashed a negotiated $260 million digital offer down to roughly $140 million. Fox officially declined renewal, and ESPN president John Skipper resisted mixed martial arts. The impasse broke after Skipper resigned, enabling Disney executive Kevin Mayer to pursue the UFC as an anchor for the launch of ESPN+. During a parallel pitch to Viacom's Bob Bakish, Emanuel received a $300 million WhatsApp acceptance from Mayer that matched Endeavor's internal pro forma debt obligation. When UFC president Dana White refused the agreed eight linear broadcast episodes and demanded ten, Emanuel engaged in an explosive phone confrontation with Mayer. Bob Iger intervened to grant the additional dates, after which Disney agreed to purchase UFC pay-per-view rights, ultimately securing a seven-year direct-to-consumer agreement that validated the original $4.2 billion purchase. Dismantling the Ego and Eliminating Safety Nets (60:23) Emanuel acknowledged that his early career was fueled by intense anxiety, childhood dyslexia, an acute fear of intellectual inadequacy, and explosive anger. Following a near-fatal car accident at age 32 and extreme stress during the UFC transaction, he began working with a therapist to dismantle what he termed the "ego project." Emanuel concluded that operating through volatile rage placed an artificial ceiling on the scale of an enterprise, as continuous conflict burned out executive partners and deal counterparties. A subsequent 2022 psychedelic experience with 5-MeO-DMT helped dissolve his preoccupation with personal legacy and accumulating wealth, allowing him to view dealmaking as craftsmanship rather than an existential defense mechanism. Emanuel paired this internal recalibration with a strict morning physical regimen and a daily routine of rolling dozens of phone calls without interruption. Despite this shift in perspective, Emanuel maintained an uncompromising work ethic, rejecting backup plans and arguing that building an enduring enterprise requires total commitment to a single outcome. Emanuel's narrative emphasizes that sustained corporate expansion requires pairing ruthless market aggression with emotional self-regulation. However, the brief leaves open whether Emanuel's high-friction, personalized dealmaking style and concentrated leverage can be institutionalized across TKO and MARI without his direct daily involvement on the phone.

[0:02] Ari Emanuel: Dana and Lorenzo, I just saw—knowing them at that point for about three years—they were just like ready to explode. And it was really getting heated. And you don't insult somebody from what they created as if you can just recreate Dana White. Impossible. And what Lorenzo put into their heart and soul that they put into it. [7:30] Ari Emanuel: Before you let him get off the phone, just like close your eyes and when your eyes are closed, just tell me what this incredible number would make you happy. What's the number that you see when your eyes are closed?" He's like, "It's a big fucking number, Ari. And it starts with a four. [15:15] Ari Emanuel: I'm here. Mark Shapiro's there. Bob Bakish is there. I get a WhatsApp from Kevin Mayer that says the price we want: 'You have a deal.'... $300 million. I slide the phone over to Shapiro as he's pitching his heart out... He looks down. He's still pitching. I'm like, meeting over. We got to go. [17:19] Ari Emanuel: We call Dana... we're all sweating bullets, you know, not healthy. And we say it's eight episodes. Dana goes, 'No, I'm not doing that.'... I go, 'What are you talking about?' He goes, 'I'm not doing it unless we have 10.' And I said to him, 'We have nobody else right now.' He goes, 'I don't care.' [32:53] Egon Durban: You're not going to remember this $400 million... Let's make an offer that they can't like keep on bidding us up. Let's just take it off the table in one foul swoop. [35:01] Ari Emanuel: Stop. All we got to do is just keep on making the calls. We're going to get to it. We have a really good product, a really good story. We're creating a great company. The world's going our way. The thesis is right... Just let's keep on making the calls and doing the thing and talking about our story. People will come to it. [39:21] David Geffen: Just merge with William Morris, get in traffic and get hit. [39:21] Patrick Whitesell: You don't think we could win this battle with them? Like we're people like us. Our culture is better. We're gonna win. [39:21] David Geffen: there's a lot more people dumber than you that own record companies. [45:19] Ari Emanuel: Roll the calls. [77:36] Ari Emanuel: That morning routine. That is my drug. I don't drink. I don't smoke. I don't do any of that. [78:18] Ari Emanuel: Because I could get anybody on the phone and I could the the puzzle pieces got easier because I could talk to anybody I wanted. They all picked up the phone. I could come up with stupid ideas. They would meet me. [82:32] Ari Emanuel: I say this all the time. I never had a plan B. I don't know about you. In my life it was it was agency or or die. [82:32] Jeff Bezos: Plan B should be to make plan A work.

[0:02] Right. This is like a caged tiger. No [0:05] story having a conversation because I'd [0:07] rather just have a conversation than [0:09] like [0:09] >> Okay. All right. Go. [0:10] >> So tell tell the story. [0:11] >> So Dana's Dana told you the story about [0:13] Phipe Dumal or Phil. [0:15] >> Let me let me back this up. We were just [0:17] talking. The funniest story anybody's [0:18] told on the podcast so far is Dana White [0:20] and he goes, "Let me tell you about this [0:21] guy named Philipe Duman." He goes, "His [0:23] name," he goes, "His name is Phil Doom [0:25] and he's from [ __ ] Jersey." And then [0:27] you're like, "That was a funny meeting." [0:28] Here, here's So, we're the UFC has taken [0:30] off on Spike, right? Our term is up. [0:34] This is when we had the reality show and [0:36] had some fight notes. And so, we call a [0:39] meeting. I'm now representing them. It's [0:41] Dana, Lorenzo, Fata, myself, [0:46] the head of Spike at the time, and um [0:50] Phil, and I think one other person, his [0:52] other co-CEO, whatever. [0:57] and we're pitching in that you got to [0:58] consider it a sport. It's not a reality [1:00] show, etc. He goes, [1:04] I knew this was bad. He goes, "We made [1:06] you. If you leave, [1:09] you know, we'll get somebody else and [1:11] we'll place you." [snorts] and Dana, you [1:14] know, and Lorenzo, I I just saw like [1:18] knowing them at that point for about [1:20] three years. They were just like ready [1:23] to explode. And it was really getting [1:26] heated. And you don't insult somebody [1:28] from what they created as if you can [1:30] just recreate Dana White. Impossible. [1:32] And what Lorenzo put into their heart [1:34] and soul that they put into it. [1:37] So the meeting ends and I call him like, [1:39] "What are you doing?" like this is an an [1:42] easy ask we asked for. It was like we're [1:44] doubling it. It is a sport. It was like [1:47] their highest rated thing. I represented [1:50] WW. We had moved it back to USA coming [1:52] off of that. That's when the lawsuit [1:54] happened with Barry Diller when we moved [1:57] it off USA. And he didn't get mad, but [2:00] he was boiling. And I know Dana Boils. [2:03] It's like, "Oh, you want to get [2:04] competitive with me on a sport that I [2:06] know and what we've done? You think [2:07] somebody can replace me?" And that's [2:09] what the offensive thing was. This guy [2:10] had no idea what he was. He couldn't [2:12] start anything. He destroyed that [2:15] company. Destroyed it. He let everything [2:18] go that was of value and just bought bad [2:20] stock and bought it back from I think [2:22] $80 all the way down. He made a lot of [2:25] money. So yeah, we just moved made the [2:28] deal at Fox. Incredible deal at the [2:31] time. The funny thing is after we made [2:34] the Fox deal and that deal was coming up [2:36] and then the world which is in the book [2:38] the world blew up. We thought Fox had to [2:41] make the deal just because they own [2:42] these things the RSN the local station [2:44] group and how much play the UFC had on [2:47] it and what it was doing for the [2:48] network. They were going to have to make [2:49] deal. Look, you know, Rupert then sells [2:53] that business [2:55] to Disney. There's no need economically. [2:58] They're on pause until that deal goes [3:00] through. [3:01] President Trump slows down the AT&T [3:04] deal. So that went away. [3:07] Comcast didn't want it. They had all the [3:08] sports they wanted. [3:09] >> You're talking about a Now this is after [3:11] you bought the UFC. [3:12] >> This is like four years after we move [3:14] the UFC. [3:14] >> Let's give some background. You you [3:15] signed Dana, but then later on you and [3:18] Egon Durban buy the UFC for $4.2 [3:21] billion. [3:22] >> And everybody's telling you it's like, [3:24] "Oh, these guys don't they're [ __ ] [3:25] idiots. They don't know what they're [3:26] doing. They're overpaid." And then in [3:28] the book, you talk about the story of [3:30] trying to sell the rights after the Fox [3:31] thing. [3:32] >> We buy IMG this [3:34] >> for 2.4 billion. [3:35] >> 2.4 billion. And the thing about my life [3:37] is I love puzzles. [3:39] >> And my phone is a way to kind of put the [3:42] pieces in place. I'm going to go way [3:45] back if you don't mind. [3:46] >> Let's go. [3:46] >> So I start this company, Rain, with Joe [3:49] Ravage and Jeff Sign, this merchant [3:51] bank. I'm raising money for them. I fly [3:54] to Abu Dhabi. I get $100 million out of [3:56] my friends in in in the UAE. I read this [3:59] article from Mark Andre. This is going [4:01] to be way back. He comes to see me. We [4:05] just, you know, it's just creating [4:06] serendipity. What you do in your life [4:08] and people that are successful, I think [4:09] they do. They just have relationships [4:10] and they figure out how they fit into [4:12] your life in a good way. I ask him in [4:15] that first meeting I meet him one, what [4:17] he does and but two, I'd like him to put [4:20] money into rain. We're raising a a fund [4:22] in the merchant. He says, "I'll do it. [4:25] I'll do it with this guy on Durban and [4:27] Nikesh who was working at the time at uh [4:30] Google in Google. They're at [4:31] >> he's now at Palo Alto. We're recording [4:33] with Nesh next month. [4:34] >> He's fantastic." [4:35] >> Yeah. [4:36] >> And through that I meet Ian Durban. He [4:38] buys a company that he sells to [4:40] Microsoft for um Skype for he buys it I [4:44] don't know from whatever. And that was [4:45] one of his first big deals. Incredible. [4:47] But in that conversation, he realized [4:49] the value of content in a distribution [4:51] platform. We were talking about creating [4:53] animation and I he was really creative. [4:56] Cut to [4:58] lunches and dinners. Teddy Forceman who [5:00] at the time had bought IMG. He had [5:02] forceman little bought buys IMG had [5:05] gotten sick and was dying and and passed [5:07] away of a brain tumor. Horrible. Egon [5:10] flies down and says, "Can I have lunch [5:12] with you?" And we had now a great [5:14] relationship because of the introduction [5:16] that I made. And he goes, "I want to buy [5:19] a piece of you and I want to go after [5:20] IMG." I was trying to raise money around [5:22] him. Mike Batista flew down to Brazil. [5:25] Martin Surell at WPP. I was trying to [5:27] put the pieces together to raise the [5:29] money. I thought it was going to be [5:30] about $2 billion. He says, "I want to do [5:32] this and I want to go after them." I [5:33] said, "You're a P firm. No chance [5:36] [laughter] you're going to be able to [5:37] figure this out." He goes, "Give me your [5:39] numbers. Give me three weeks. I'll come [5:40] back." [5:43] And we now have William Morris. That's a [5:44] whole another story. So Patrick and I [5:47] meet with him. [5:49] He brings his team down. We explain our [5:51] economics, TV packaging, everything we [5:53] do. Three weeks later comes down, makes [5:56] me an offer that we could have signed as [5:57] is. We do the deal after a little I [6:01] could I could not not negotiate, [6:03] >> right? It's it's [laughter] in my nature [6:05] and we then go after IMG. So we then got [6:10] a global footprint [6:12] US sport. We got movies, television, [6:16] music, theater, books. exactly what we [6:20] wanted and then we added events, sports, [6:23] production, licensing. It was one of [6:26] oneonone Egon's vision. Incredible. I [6:28] mean, we had the idea, too. We just were [6:30] trying to figure out money and the [6:31] perfect partner, long-term, [6:35] cares about what you're doing when he [6:37] when he gets involved in the company, [6:38] learns everything about the company, [6:40] brings incredible ideas to it. He's an [6:42] incredible investor, an incredible [6:43] partner. [6:45] Once we had that, we came to him with [6:48] this guy, Brent Richards, Mark Shapiro, [6:50] and myself, and we said, "This is the [6:52] representation business. In addition to [6:54] that, because we have all the pieces [6:56] that you need, we negotiate with all the [6:58] networks globally for sports rights and [7:00] for movie and television rights, we [7:02] should put a piece of ownership on top, [7:04] something we own in sports, cuz here's [7:06] where the world's going with [7:10] Netflix, etc., et." [7:11] >> Where did you think the world was going? [7:12] Well, I I knew they had a NestLab [7:14] business, right, where you you you buy a [7:17] subscription to Netflix, Hulu, it [7:19] started. They were eventually going to [7:20] go to Avot, which is advertising base. [7:23] And one of the things that keeps people [7:25] engaged was sports. So, we needed to [7:27] own, we needed to be in the sports [7:29] space. [7:29] >> Okay. [7:30] >> I don't know if it was a year or two [7:31] later, they had danced with it, Frank [7:35] and Lorenzo, about selling the business. [7:36] About two years later, they came back [7:38] and sold it. We're opening it up again. [7:40] We heard about it and so we started [7:43] getting into it. [7:44] >> This is where you call Lorenzo in the [7:45] book and you're like just don't just at [7:47] least let me get a shot before he sells [7:49] anything else. But you said he was he [7:50] would not commit. He would not say [7:51] either. [7:52] >> He would not. And listen, Lorenzo and [7:55] Frank Fata are incredible negotiators, [7:58] coolest customers of all time, tough. [8:00] >> But what you said to them before you get [8:02] there, I love your line. And you're [8:03] like, "Okay, before you let him get the [8:04] phone, just like close your eyes and [8:06] when your eyes are closed, just tell me [8:08] what this this incredible number would [8:10] make you happy. What's the number that [8:11] you see when your eyes are closed?" He's [8:12] like, "It's a big [ __ ] number, Ari." [8:14] And it starts with a four. [8:15] >> Right. Exactly. Which is I just needed [8:18] the framing. [8:19] >> Yeah. [8:19] >> Right. [8:19] >> Were you shocked when he said it starts [8:21] with a four? [8:22] >> No, because I had a because I had been [8:24] involved with the company for 20 years. [8:25] I knew where the network business is. I [8:27] knew how much Fox needed it. I didn't [8:29] know what was going to happen. And I in [8:31] my mind I just did math about what the [8:33] license fee would go to. I asked Egon if [8:36] it gets to this and we start doing our [8:38] you know running our numbers what we [8:40] needed to get to. So we're in that [8:43] negotiation and our biggest competitor [8:46] was the Chinese. Actually I actually [8:48] thought it was going to be Warner [8:49] Brothers and Jeff Buucis and I think a [8:51] lot of people at TNT wanted it and Egon [8:54] said no it's Fox cuz it's already on Fox [8:57] an easy transaction. I didn't think Fox, [8:59] but I did think TNT was gonna possibly [9:03] do it, but Jeff was Buus was downsizing [9:07] to sell the business, so he didn't want [9:10] to do that right now. So, we got into it [9:14] and I think Dane at one point turns to [9:16] them and says, "Please," [9:19] he had an unbelievable relationship with [9:21] me for 20 years. I I I want to be with a [9:23] guy that knows the business and loves [9:25] the business, and he knew I did. So we [9:27] got it for a little cheaper than they [9:28] did, but it was 4.2 billion at that [9:30] point. But pull back. The hardest thing [9:34] for Egon myself at that point, and this [9:36] is where I learned, I mean, he taught me [9:38] everything here. We had Brexit happened. [9:41] All the banking system fell apart. And [9:44] and the great thing about is he he [9:46] stayed he stayed as steady as it could [9:48] be cuz he believed in where distribution [9:50] going, the value of sports. And we [9:53] pieced it all together with Michael Dell [9:55] doing the preferred. I mean the PE and I [9:57] learned so much. And he took my hand and [10:00] walked me through everything here. It [10:01] was incredible. It was just brutal. [10:04] Right. Cut to this is where I got sick. [10:07] Actually, physically sick cuz it was so [10:09] much stress. We had put clients into it. [10:12] We put all the chips in the middle of [10:13] the table. $4.2 billion. People were [10:16] saying it was the most expensive deal in [10:17] the history of sports. We're crazy for [10:19] doing this deal. Egan separately put [10:22] money in KKR. Henry and and George were [10:26] incredible from the founders of KKR of [10:29] backing Egon and me in this situation. [10:33] The world blows up. [10:36] Roupert sells to Disney. AT&T and I [10:39] thought I had a deal on the backside if [10:42] if they weren't going to pay what we [10:43] want them to pay at Fox that AT&T was [10:46] going to make. [10:46] >> Now we're talking about television [10:47] rights. [10:48] >> Television rights after the deal. after [10:49] the deal closes [10:50] >> and there's no place to go. [10:53] >> There's no place to sell to cuz Netflix [10:55] wasn't in sports. Nobody else had really [10:57] gotten to the level. We almost had a [10:59] deal with Jeff Bezos and and and Jeff [11:04] that was like 260 million or something [11:05] like that. Then they pulled it. [11:07] >> Well, we had negotiated for 4 months [11:11] and they said, "Oh, it's got to go to [11:13] this committee. No big deal. It's a [11:14] rubber stamp." This was on a Saturday. [11:16] We had our fight in Boston. [11:20] And um by Monday it comes in at like [11:23] 1:40. I'm like I went crazy. [11:26] >> Did you go to Jeff? I think [11:27] >> Jeff Jeff was at one of our parties. [11:30] Lawrence answers his his wife now says [11:32] come meet Jeff. I said he he took money [11:35] out of your pocket, man. He's not you're [11:36] not feeding your kids. Here's what [11:38] happened. You know, it's a huge bet. He [11:41] didn't know anything about it. [11:42] >> Yeah. [11:42] >> Jeff Blackburn, this is my this is my [11:45] conclusion. I think I'm completely [11:47] right. like they just made a bad [11:50] estimate. The people beneath him were [11:52] above the key. And even though he [11:54] realized Jeff Bezos, that yes, all the [11:57] facts we had told him were true, he [12:00] wasn't going to override his team. Yeah. [12:02] >> And I understood that as a leader. [12:03] >> So what were they trying to do? They [12:04] were just trying to save 120 million. [12:05] >> Well, they just didn't think we had the [12:07] econ Well, they started doing math on [12:09] our fight nights and our pay-per-views. [12:11] I I don't know what happened. We have [12:14] nothing. [12:16] We're pitching ESPN. Kevin Mayer's there [12:18] and John Skipper and we're pitching. Fox [12:22] is now official. No. Mark Shapiro tells [12:24] me, "You're lying to yourself. You don't [12:26] you're not listening to them. They have [12:28] passed and I am pitching my heart out." [12:30] [laughter] [12:31] So, we pitched Disney. 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And [14:46] you can do that by going to [14:47] apploven.com. That's apploven.com. [14:52] It's still crazy that people call like [14:54] they think it's like a like a you just [14:56] said they didn't like it. They used to [14:57] call it back when Dana and the Fertito [14:59] brothers bought they called it human [15:00] [ __ ] fighting [ __ ] fighting but even to [15:01] this day that was John McCain. [15:02] >> Yeah. Yeah. But that was like 20 16 [15:04] years old 16 years before we are in the [15:06] story or so. And even this was like no [15:08] this is like a dirty business was like [15:11] you know and he's shining us on. [15:13] >> He gets in trouble. [15:15] >> Let's not go into his trouble. It's in [15:16] the book. It's it's in the book. He gets [15:18] in trouble. [15:18] >> He's out. Kevin Mayor is in place. [15:21] They're going direct to consumer. He [15:23] calls us. We want the deal. The first [15:26] offer [15:28] was for [ __ ] Mark and I work an a [15:32] weekend and he Kevin and I know each [15:35] other for a long time. [15:39] We work on a letter. We send him [15:42] what what we think it's worth, why we [15:44] think it's worth. They then come up not [15:46] exactly where we want and we're we're [15:48] negotiating right back and forth. He's [15:50] saying stuff. We're giving him stuff. [15:52] Back and forth. [15:54] We're still pitching other places. We go [15:57] in to see Bob Bakish who's at Viacom now [16:00] and we're pitching him. [16:03] Let's reinvent Spike where we originally [16:05] started and make it into a sports [16:06] channel. Exactly what AT&T and wanted to [16:10] do with TNT. That's what the [16:11] conversation was with AT&T if they could [16:12] have closed that deal. As we're [16:14] pitching, [16:16] I'm here. Mark Shapiro's there. Bob [16:18] Bakish is there. I get a what's up. [16:21] WhatsApp from Kevin Mayor that says the [16:25] price we want. You have a deal. [16:27] >> 300 million. [16:27] >> Yeah. I slide the phone over to Shapiro [16:30] as he's pitching his heart out. I'm [16:32] pitching my heart out. He was at this [16:33] point he was pitching. [16:36] He looks down. He's still pitching. I'm [16:38] like meeting over. [laughter] [16:41] We got to go. Why not show it to these [16:44] guys? Like you want to match? [16:45] >> Yeah. Get into the car. Cuz I had the [16:47] deal I wanted which was an incredible [16:48] deal. Okay. Yeah, [16:49] >> like it it hit the number that was in [16:51] our proforma. [16:52] >> Okay, [16:52] >> we had 4 months left until it was going [16:56] to be a nightmare. We get in the car, [16:58] they're in the plane, Iger, uh Kevin, [17:02] and we're negotiating. We're going back [17:04] and forth and over WhatsApp, we're [17:07] negotiating deals. It was eight episodes [17:08] on ESPN, the rest behind the wall on [17:10] ESPN Plus. They were just launching the [17:12] SPLS, etc. Cut to we we get back to the [17:17] office. We call Dana, [17:19] you know, we're all sweating bullets, [17:22] you know, not healthy. And we say it's [17:23] eight episode. Dana goes, "No, I'm not [17:25] doing that. I love him so much and he [17:28] has pushed me so hard and made me [17:30] better, Dana." I go, "What are you [17:32] talking about?" He goes, "I'm not doing [17:33] unless we have 10." And I said to him, [17:35] "We have nobody else right now." He [17:36] goes, "I don't care." Like, "I don't [17:39] care." Like, "What are you talking [17:40] about?" Cut to I had no move. No move. I [17:44] get Kevin on the phone. I go crazy on [17:46] them. [17:47] >> This happens several times in the book [17:48] where you're like, "Okay, I'm gonna just [17:51] go crazy." And so they explain to people [17:53] that haven't read the book yet what [17:54] going crazy means. [17:55] >> Well, I said, "You [ __ ] you I [17:58] need 10 [ __ ] episodes. I can't do [18:00] this. You got to break stars. You're [18:02] going to want stars. You need stars for [18:04] to put it behind the the pay wall so [18:06] that people buy the pay wall. You need [18:08] it to be on ESPN so they understand the [18:10] sport." And I just gave him this whole [18:12] story, which was actually true. slam [18:17] shap I I I think he turned as white as [18:20] this chair right [laughter] [18:23] and uh I said and he's like we have [18:26] nothing what are you doing calm down [18:28] they're not going to blow this deal they [18:31] want the deal we're making one move if [18:33] we can't get it we'll call Dan we'll [18:34] figure it out [18:36] to Kevin and to Bob Iger's credit who [18:40] was you know he started out in boxing [18:42] >> you know he he actually loves combat [18:44] sports. Bob Iger. [18:46] >> It was a Was it ABC? When was he doing [18:47] box? [18:47] >> It was ABC. Yeah. Way back in the day. [18:50] Yeah. [18:51] >> And unbeknownst to Mark and I at the [18:53] time, Bob kind of told us later. He says [18:56] to Jimmy Potara. Yeah. So Jimmy was on [18:58] the plane, too. Just give him the 10. [19:00] Figure it out on the schedule. I didn't [19:02] know that. Kevin calls back. We have the [19:05] 10. Dana's happy. Boom. We're off to the [19:08] races. And you know, luck has it. [19:12] Skipper got in trouble. [19:15] But and then we go in. [19:17] >> Hold on. Yeah, I was say we're not off [19:18] to the races yet because then you're [19:19] like, what about these nice little [19:21] paper? [19:21] >> Then we go in for the celebration [19:25] >> with Kevin and Bob who was incredible [19:27] partners. Like fantastic. They have been [19:29] incred ESPN's incredible partners. [19:31] They're incredible. [19:32] >> Hold on. You going to celebration [19:33] regifting? [19:35] >> Yeah. It's a it's a it's a it's a it's a [19:37] I don't Seinfeld episode. Mary David the [19:40] regifting and we bring it in. It's 75 [19:43] lbs or 100 lb and we're bringing the [19:44] book in. [19:45] >> Hold on. The funniest part. So it's this [19:46] book that commemorates the UFC that I [19:48] think Dana gave you and you guys are on [19:50] the phone making sure [19:51] >> I mean it's like 4x4 [19:53] >> with some poor assistant like make sure [19:55] Dana did not say love. [19:57] >> Exactly. Cut to we're just sweating [20:01] bullets as they're going through the [20:02] book. It [clears throat] wasn't the in [20:04] two seconds the assistant did a good [20:05] job. [20:07] We're in the meeting. [20:09] It's great meeting. And I go, "Fuck you [20:12] guys, [20:14] right?" What? You're going to make Mark [20:16] and I go pitch our pay-per-views when [20:19] you're putting some behind the wall? You [20:21] guys are [ __ ] [ __ ] like that. [20:25] Bob, who didn't know, Kevin? Did you [20:28] know we could buy the pay-per-views, [20:29] too? [20:31] Ha. Haba haba. And Kevin's a really [20:34] smart guy, but you know, we got like [20:36] getting getting everybody over the hump [20:37] on one. He goes, [20:40] "Baby, incredible." Goes, "We'll get [20:43] back to you on Monday." Monday comes, [20:47] they buy the pay-per-views. [20:50] Incredible. 7-year deal. Incredible. [20:53] They did incredible with it. We did [20:55] incredible with it. It was It was like a [20:57] home run for both. But this is why I [20:59] wanted to serve with the story because [21:00] everybody says these guys are idiots. [21:01] They're they're paying overpaying for [21:04] buying UFC. This one deal valuation is [21:06] almost I think a 7-year deal was like [21:08] almost $4 billion almost the purchase [21:10] price of UFC. [21:11] >> Yeah. [21:12] >> So the the first deal, right? [21:15] >> Well, it wasn't it wasn't a a kind of [21:18] stamp of where direct to consumer was [21:22] going. [21:22] >> It was or was not [21:23] >> was okay. it. Everything that Mark [21:26] Shapiro, myself, Egon Durban had thought [21:29] through was happening was happening. We [21:31] just had to get through some [21:33] consolidation [21:34] um and and deal flow to get get to it. [21:37] >> The second part of the deal where they [21:38] buy the pay-per-views, that's over a few [21:40] days. How long from the first time you [21:42] approached them till the deal the first [21:44] deal is closed? Was that two years? [21:45] >> No. So, we were coming to the end. We [21:48] were putting we were putting Fox off [21:50] because we [snorts] thought they they [21:51] were definitely on the table. We just [21:52] wanted to see what else was happening. [21:53] And then to Iger's credit, he went after [21:56] Fox understandably for direct to [21:58] consumer and what he wanted Disney Plus [22:00] and Hulu to be. [22:02] He comes over. We Fox was there early, [22:06] but then they sold. [22:07] >> Yeah. [22:08] >> And then it was about to beginning [22:12] conversation to the end [22:15] three and a half months I think with [22:17] with Disney [22:18] >> and ESPN. Are most of the deals that [22:20] you've done like we can go back to when [22:22] you were just an agent or we can talk [22:24] about like you know buying all these [22:25] businesses with with Egon like is that [22:27] normal is it usually there's so [22:29] >> well no like if you're making a writer [22:30] deal in television which I started my [22:33] business with and you're staffing a show [22:36] you're in you know from when when it [22:37] used to be upfronts and you'd go to New [22:39] York and you'd be in up fronts on May [22:41] 28thish until staffing it was like a [22:44] 3-we race to put as many writers on TV [22:47] shows that have been picked up for [22:48] networks. The UFC deal and the IMG deal [22:52] were probably [22:55] 6 months to a year each one of them. And [22:58] then the merger I there's a merger took [23:01] that to me. [23:02] >> Yes. The 2003 they're laughing at you [23:04] like are you going to buy us? That was [23:06] one of my favorite parts of the book [23:07] where you go to speak to the Harvard [23:08] professor and they're like there's no [23:09] such thing as a merger. This is a lie. [23:10] There's one company. [23:11] >> Professor Nittton incredible. Actually, [23:14] I think he's on the board board with [23:16] Josh Kushner at Thrive. Yes, Thrive just [23:19] reached out to me to see if I want to [23:20] talk to him. Do you think that that'd be [23:22] interesting to do? But I just love what [23:23] he told you. He's like there's such [23:24] thing as a merger. Like it's there's an [23:26] alpha, there's a beta, there's a [23:27] conqueror, there's a conquered. In fact, [23:29] you you met uh you mentioned Egon [23:30] Durban. So, um Michael Dell has been [23:32] like a huge influence on me. He's like [23:33] become a friend. I just had dinner with [23:34] him like two weeks ago. I met at one of [23:36] Dell's events this guy named Hawk Tan. [23:38] >> Hawkan. [23:39] >> Yeah. The the CEO Broadcom. [23:41] >> Broadcom. He said the the funny [ __ ] cuz [23:43] he's done a lot of acquisitions and he [23:44] was giving advice to another tech [23:45] founder there. And he goes, "Here's my [23:48] most important piece of advice for you." [23:49] He's like, "When you're acquiring [23:50] something uh somebody, make sure they [23:52] know on day one, you know, Hawkan's an [23:53] extreme [ __ ] personality." And he [23:55] goes, "Make sure you they understand day [23:57] one that you are the conqueror and they [23:58] are the conquered." [23:59] >> Yeah. [24:00] >> And in your book, I love this scene you [24:02] bring us to where it's like 2003, [24:04] private dining room in a restaurant. [24:06] They laugh in your face [24:07] >> about you're going to buy us. you like [24:09] we're we're a 100-y old company or [24:11] whatever the case is. And then that deal [24:12] takes like four years. In that four [24:14] years, [24:17] Patrick and I were [24:20] stealing clients, [24:22] weakening them. We were stealing agents, [24:25] weakening them, and just listening to [24:30] the street like there was problems over [24:32] there. A lot of dissension. And then the [24:35] moment came, I mean, I screwed up the [24:38] first meeting so badly and and Patrick [24:40] was perfect in the first meeting whether [24:42] we had where I went crazy. He going [24:44] crazy doesn't always work. [24:45] >> No, no. It pushed out the the the the [24:50] merger for 4 years. I played a horrible [24:52] game of chess there. Just horrible. I'm [24:54] at a, you know, Jewish holiday at an [24:57] event to kind of break the fast. And one [25:00] of their most important agents comes up [25:01] to me, says, "It's time to kind of get [25:03] back into this." And, um, I meet with [25:06] him. I meet with this woman, Jennifer [25:07] Walsh, who ran their book division. And [25:10] we reignited. And then it moved pretty [25:12] fast. It was about [25:14] 6 months cuz they we we realized they [25:16] needed it. And it was really a lot of [25:19] disruption happening in there. A lot of [25:20] dissent. And that descent enabled [25:23] Patrick and I to be the conquerors in [25:26] that situation. And then Egon coming [25:28] into our company enabled Patrick and I [25:31] to kind of economic incentivize [25:33] everybody and then take control. [25:35] >> Before we go back to the Egon part [25:36] though, I think this was a very [25:37] fascinating cuz I didn't understand [25:38] what's going on in the book and then you [25:40] guys closed this and closed the way more [25:42] steel. [25:42] >> Yeah, we're talking about the the [25:43] merger. Sorry. And you at this point you [25:46] said you [ __ ] up the first 2003 [25:48] meeting and then you kind of [25:49] >> [ __ ] up is be like be gentle. That was [25:51] that was a gentle statement. [25:52] >> Okay. But you you see that you learned a [25:55] couple years later because then I forgot [25:56] the guy's name, but he's like, "Oh, I [25:57] want to be I want to be chairman. I want [25:58] to be this or I want to pick the Wyatt." [26:00] >> Yeah. And you were just like, "Yeah, [26:01] sure, sure, sure." [26:02] >> So, here's what happened. The deal [26:04] closes, meaning William Morris votes to [26:06] say yes. Endeavor votes to say yes. [26:09] >> Be a merger, right? [26:10] >> Which, you know, doesn't exist already, [26:11] right? And we, Patrick and I had done, [26:14] >> you know, constantly talked to it nitten [26:17] who kind of helped us think through it. [26:21] And even in them closing a lot of their [26:25] senior members that were equity holders [26:28] were calling us and saying this is not [26:31] going to work. Cut to the deals are [26:34] approved but were not closed and we [26:36] realized okay we cannot go forward [26:39] mainly their side. One, there's guys [26:41] that make so much money. Peter Glight [26:44] and their music department, one of the [26:46] biggest divisions, Mark Gitken in their [26:48] non-scripted business, not on the board, [26:50] not really paid attention to. We have to [26:52] keep them to make the merger work. We go [26:55] have I go have separate meetings with [26:56] both of them and let them into the plan [26:59] cuz they hated leadership. [27:00] >> And you told them the plans. You already [27:03] knew this. [27:03] >> We had brought them on to our our side [27:05] of the fence. [27:05] >> Okay. [27:07] >> How long were you plotting before you [27:08] executed this though? This is where [27:10] Patrick was great. You know, I was so [27:12] nervous about this. Like, this is going [27:14] to be a nightmare if he's sitting there. [27:15] And he had sent a memo out. I have to be [27:18] on all head of studio calls. I I didn't [27:20] even understand what that meant. Like, [27:22] I'm on a call with a studio head. I've [27:24] been running this company with Patrick [27:25] for x amount years and you want to be on [27:27] my call? Like, no. I realized and [27:30] Patrick said when we're [27:33] probably going to enter in after 2003, [27:35] it's four years later. We're really [27:36] going for it. And I got really cold [27:38] feet. And Patrick just [snorts] in the [27:41] third floor conference room, not [27:43] physically, but slapped me in my face, [27:44] say, "What? You don't think you can take [27:46] this guy out?" And so kind of woke me [27:49] up, cold cold water on the face. And [27:52] [snorts] we get to it. And then [27:54] everybody realizes on their side, Jim [27:57] cannot be part of this. And we [27:59] negotiated very clear terms [28:03] of majorities, supermajorities, what [28:05] happens for the board. They had five [28:08] votes. We had four and a quarter votes [28:09] for each one of us. And [28:14] Jennifer Walsh and Patrick go to Jim [28:17] Wyatt's council [28:19] and says [28:21] not going to work. It's 2008, 2009. The [28:24] world is we don't remember, but the [28:26] world was coming to an end. My brother [28:27] was in the White House, financial [28:29] crisis, almost depression, [28:33] >> and nobody thought at the time you were [28:35] going to write a check for 20 $24 [28:36] million [28:38] >> to buy out one guy. [28:39] >> Buy one guy. [28:39] >> You got to buy out another one, too. [28:41] >> Yeah. So, he takes the deal. [28:45] He takes the $24 million. [28:48] They convince him. He says yes. Check [28:50] written. Irv Win thinks he's getting the [28:53] job once Jimmy's off. [28:56] And I call him up. Patrick's on the [28:58] phone. I said, "You don't have the votes [29:01] because you need you need twothirds and [29:04] you don't have twothirds. Board doesn't [29:06] want you." That was a little bit of a [29:09] tussle. I won't get into the details, [29:12] but he finally realized, "No, go. We [29:15] write him a check for $20 million." So, [29:17] we're out $44 million 09. we lose a [29:21] lawsuit on the building that they bought [29:24] >> because you're you're you're going to [29:25] have to be shar sharing a garage with [29:27] your direct competitor. [29:29] >> An agency like like right there. [29:31] >> Who the would do that? [29:32] >> I don't know. That's [29:34] >> and then they were [29:35] >> 35. So now now we're at 75. [29:38] >> Yes. [29:38] >> No, that's uh $80 million. [29:41] >> Then we have to pay out bonuses either [29:43] between 20 and $40 million. [29:46] We were [ __ ] and you know getting a [29:48] loan from a bank in the middle of 0809 I [29:51] mean and that's when Russell Goldmith [29:53] who was part of city national [29:57] always had backed us when we when we [29:59] needed a million dollars with no [30:00] collateral and I just [30:02] >> when you left let's let's talk about [30:03] that real quick when you left and [30:04] started [30:05] >> when we left ICM [30:06] >> yes the four of us [30:07] >> and you started Endeavor so it was Tom [30:10] Strickler Rick Rosen David Greenblat [30:12] myself [30:13] >> and your description of this startup [30:14] company that now is worth a ton of money [30:16] right I love it. Says four demons in a [30:19] room rolling calls. [30:20] >> Yeah. [30:21] >> You had you had a table and a phone [30:24] >> and we didn't have we couldn't collect [30:25] the commission. We put it in escrow [30:26] because we were getting sued by ICM for [30:29] whatever reason. They thought they [30:30] thought we had we had created a a [30:32] horrible situation. Their whole press [30:35] around us created even a bigger company [30:38] than it really was. [30:39] >> And so this guy at the bank which was [30:40] named was Russell Goldman. Yeah. He's [30:42] the one back in when you had nothing a [30:44] million. Now [30:44] >> we had no money. None of us had money. [30:46] >> Yes. [30:47] >> He's he was incredible. And then cut to, [30:51] you know, 15 or 19 years later, whatever [30:53] it was. [30:53] >> And I said, "Listen, this dream is going [30:55] to end if you don't." And he did. And [30:58] what happened after that is, as I recall [31:01] it, we buy IMG. And I said to him at the [31:04] time, I don't know how we're going to [31:04] repay you, but we'll repay you at some [31:06] point. He's trying to sell [31:09] Sydney National and do a deal with the [31:12] Canadian company. And he said, "Can I [31:14] have some of your bonds?" [31:16] >> This is the 2.4 billion deal. [31:18] >> Yes. Yeah. Eon had, you know, he asked [31:20] his relationship. That was his thing. [31:22] And I said to him, I tell him the story. [31:24] And I said, "I need, you know, $300 [31:26] million worth to his credit. He figured [31:30] it out." And [31:30] >> Egon did. [31:31] >> Yeah. and we gave Russell and we repaid [31:33] him just on what he needed to kind of to [31:35] convince [31:36] >> his deal that he was doing. And yeah, [31:40] >> I like how you framed this cuz I was [31:42] like, "These guys are idiots. They spent [31:44] $44 million just on buyouts, you know, [31:46] like no, we spent $44 million to [31:48] essentially acquire a 100 year old [31:50] whatever." Yeah. With a huge roster. [31:52] It's like we stole this from them. It [31:54] was [31:55] >> incredible. It was the greatest deal [31:56] that Patrick and I ever did. Is not even [31:58] close. And you know the great thing when [32:00] we did the IMG deal it was very tense [32:03] when we're doing the deal. This is what [32:05] the great thing you only learn this over [32:07] time as and you know I have young kids [32:10] young kids. I have two 30-year-olds [32:13] a 27y old and and a 24 year old a [32:17] daughter and three boys [32:19] and you know they're they have ADHD like [32:22] me and they're like and I think all kids [32:24] have when you're young you just want to [32:25] get going. The only way you learn is [32:29] through failure and success and you gota [32:32] you got to go through things. We're in [32:34] the IMG deal. So, we're trying to do it [32:36] and it's us against Peter Turner. [32:38] >> Peter Turner was bidding on it. [32:40] >> We were bidding on it and they didn't [32:42] want us. They definitely didn't want I [32:45] us [32:48] don't know. I don't remember. I know. I [32:49] I swear to God. What the [ __ ] do I give [32:51] a [ __ ] [laughter] [32:53] >> And I learned a ton from this. I think [32:56] Churn's offer was 1.9 billion. [33:00] We offered 2.3 or 2.4 billion. And this [33:03] was Egon's, right? Egon goes and says, [33:06] "You're not going to remember this $500 [33:08] million." [33:09] >> 400 [33:10] >> $400 million. [33:11] >> You're never going to remember it. And [33:14] let's make an offer that they can't like [33:16] bid keep on bidding us up. Let's just [33:19] take it off the table in one foul swoop. [33:21] [ __ ] genius. Like incredible. I've [33:24] not done these deals. She's done a [33:25] million of them. We did it. We got the [33:28] deal. Shapiro told me before, they don't [33:31] want you. I said the more heroes win. [33:35] They can not want us. But and this was [33:37] Egon's play and it was perfect. We had a [33:39] huge fight though and this is what's [33:41] also crazy about deals and you only [33:42] learn afterwards. We thought we could [33:46] not this deal would not be successful [33:49] cuz we were trying to secure the college [33:51] guys running college, George Pine and [33:54] the head of college because they had [33:56] this whole college business inside of [33:57] IMG at the time American comp. And it [34:03] was a a a pretty heated argument about [34:06] if we don't get those executives, we [34:08] can't do this deal because college is so [34:09] important. [34:11] Not that college went bankrupt, but [34:12] college is worth like nothing inside the [34:16] IM was worth nothing at the end inside [34:18] the the uh the IMG business. Everything [34:21] was the international business and [34:23] everything we we've done post that. And [34:26] so, you know, again, that's why all the [34:30] planning about what a deal does. Who [34:32] knew Fox was going to sell? You know, [34:34] you all this says you just got to [34:36] constantly be working at stuff. If [34:37] you're not working and there's going to [34:39] be huge mountains you got to climb and [34:42] huge failures, but if you believe in the [34:44] strategy, you can get through it. This [34:46] is what you were saying. We had this [34:47] incredible conversation before we [34:49] started recording and I was like, we [34:50] need to sit down and get some of this on [34:51] tape cuz this conversation is blowing my [34:52] mind. You had mentioned earlier the [34:54] advice that you gave to like the CEO of [34:56] one of your companies now and it was [34:58] very similar to this cuz it's just like [34:59] >> so you can only do what's in front of [35:01] you, man. [35:01] >> Yeah. You know, stop telling yourself a [35:03] story, Bnee Brown. Stop telling yourself [35:06] a story. [35:06] >> Mhm. right? That in her books and one of [35:09] the great things that she [35:09] >> Who is this? [35:10] >> Renee Brown. [35:11] >> Okay, [35:11] >> she's got great books. You know, we all [35:14] do it. We tell ourselves stories in our [35:16] heads that we then believe and those are [35:20] not real stories. Those are just [35:21] stories. They're they're just not [35:22] reality. And [35:25] you know, and in he my CFO of of this [35:29] new company, we started this events [35:30] business called Mari comes up to me and [35:31] we're going through the the raise we [35:33] have to do [35:34] >> the fundraiser. the fund raise and he's [35:37] getting very traumatic. We have don't [35:39] get to and I said stop. All we got to do [35:42] is just keep on making the calls. We're [35:44] going to get to it. We have a really [35:45] good product, a really good story. We're [35:47] creating a great company. The world's [35:49] going our way. The thesis is right. And [35:52] he goes, you know, he takes a deep [35:54] breath. I he goes, "You're right." I [35:55] said, "Just let's keep on making the [35:56] calls and doing the thing and talking [35:57] about our story. People will come to it. [36:00] It's only getting better this story." [36:02] And you know, I try every day in my [36:04] life, and one of the things I say in the [36:06] book is not listening to that voice. We [36:08] all have that voice. You know, we're [36:10] guilty about stuff. We can't spend more [36:12] enough time with our kids. Is this [36:14] right? You know, you know, it's not [36:17] really worth it. That voice always wants [36:19] to boot up negative or tell you [36:20] something else. That's one of the most [36:22] interesting parts of the book, like [36:23] really the transformation you see [36:24] because the very first word, the very [36:26] the first sentence in the book is one [36:28] word and it's rage. And then you see [36:30] this change. profound change you go and [36:32] the book kind of ends in a very [36:34] different way which I want to get to [36:35] before I get there. [36:36] >> I want to go back to what Egon said. [36:38] He's like you're not going to remember [36:39] the 400 million which is one of the [36:40] craziest lines in the book of being [36:42] true. [36:42] >> What investment bank or what or PE fun [36:45] would ever say that? That's why he's [36:47] incredible. Nobody says that they if [36:49] that guy's been in one nine let's bid [36:51] two. He sees a map that is so much [36:53] different from everybody else in the [36:55] game of where he wants to go. [36:57] >> But this is the important part is like [36:59] what I always say is like learning is [37:00] not memorizing information. learning is [37:01] changing your behavior, right? You heard [37:03] that. You didn't just memorize it. You [37:04] changed your behavior because I think it [37:06] was the UFC the UCF or UFC deal. It was [37:09] another deal you're working on and [37:10] somebody internal on your own buy team [37:12] was like, "No, no, let's like lower [37:14] this." I don't remember what deal it [37:15] was. And you said, "Absolutely not." You [37:17] quoted Egon and then you guys wind up [37:19] getting the deal. So, he's like, "You're [37:20] not going to remember saving whatever. [37:21] Let's say it's 2 million. I remember it [37:23] was [37:23] >> $200 million.$100 million." [37:24] >> But you're going to remember [ __ ] you [37:25] said in the losing. You're going to [37:26] remember [ __ ] You didn't say losing. [37:28] You said [ __ ] up the deal. Yeah, [37:30] let's keep a given. You're going to have [37:32] to work really hard. Even if it's the [37:34] best strategy, even if you're right [37:36] about everything, there's going to be [37:38] really bumpy roads. That's just called [37:40] business. Life life. So, if you give [37:45] yourself, I'm going to work my ass off. [37:48] I'm going to get through all the [37:49] hardships. [37:51] If you want the deal and you believe the [37:53] strategy, right? The 100 million, the [37:55] 200 million, the 150. No, that's that's [37:59] that's not what the game is. The game is [38:01] we're gonna have to really work hard. [38:03] There's going to be some failures. [38:04] There's going to be some things we think [38:05] about that are not right. Things we [38:07] think about that we didn't even realize [38:08] that are even more right. Let's just get [38:10] through it. And you know, I think when [38:14] Disney was buying Cap Cities, I might be [38:16] wrong about the story, but I think I'm [38:17] right. [38:19] I think they valued ESPN [38:22] zero. It was the most valuable asset [38:25] [laughter] when when when Tom Warner and [38:28] his partner, [38:30] which I gave to Joe Ravage at Goldman [38:32] because they had done the yes deal for [38:33] the Yankees were buying the Red Sox. [38:36] I think they at the time they had the [38:39] cable portion of that deal in for $75 [38:43] million. It was the most important [38:45] thing. Not not that the team now is go [38:48] at the time that was the most important [38:50] asset. So all these things that we think [38:54] we know and we do all this work on you [38:57] don't want to go crazy $2 billion more [38:58] than this person but you know you're [39:00] going to work hard. There's going to be [39:01] things you project that are wrong and [39:03] things you project that are wrong but [39:05] make it even better and you're just [39:07] going to have to work through it. That [39:09] was a great lesson that Egon gave us. I [39:11] think something that I don't even think [39:13] I understood about the book even though [39:14] it's in there for them deeply [39:16] understanding about you now talking to [39:17] you is just like this idea was like I'm [39:19] just going to stay flexible and play the [39:20] game that's right in front of me. [39:21] >> It's the David Geffin line he gave to me [39:22] when we were trying to do William [39:23] Morris. I should have listened to him [39:25] way beforehand. David G. [39:26] >> Let's talk about this. [39:27] >> So David Geffin says to me you're [39:29] [laughter] [39:31] let me set this up cuz you're like [39:32] freaking out. I love how in the book so [39:35] uh I I I have the audio book version [39:36] which I highly recommend. I have this [39:38] book, obviously the hard coverver book, [39:40] and the Kindle book. All right, [39:41] >> people listen to this. You the bare [39:43] minimum order the audible right now. [39:45] >> Bob's incredible. [39:46] >> I've never read a book like this. Like [39:47] the amount of just like you're just [39:49] unbelievably honest and you're just like [39:51] you you share like yes, I'm very [39:53] successful and smart and driven, but I'm [39:55] also I got some [ __ ] up [ __ ] too like [39:56] we all do. And I think we do a [39:58] disservice where we try to pretend we're [40:00] perfect. We're all imperfect human [40:01] beings and you're just like here's it is [40:03] deal with it. You probably have this [40:04] too. We're trying to [40:06] >> we're trying to grow the business [40:07] >> and you're terrified because you have [40:10] this thing. It's like I don't feel safe [40:12] because if Endeavor is not safe, I'm not [40:14] safe, [40:15] >> right? So, [40:16] >> you know, he was he's been an incredible [40:18] adviser to me and and kind of mentor to [40:21] me [snorts] and he says to me, [40:25] just merge with William Morris, get in [40:27] traffic and get hit. [laughter] And you [40:31] know, ultimately he was saying, "Believe [40:32] in yourself, believe in your partners, [40:34] you're gonna win that battle." And he [40:36] was right, you know, [40:36] >> and the way I interpret it too is like [40:38] the worst thing you could do in a world [40:39] of changing is stand still. He's like, [40:41] "Don't stand still." [40:42] >> And that's like that's when when we were [40:44] in the we were in the conference room [40:46] and I was so nervous about merging and [40:47] Patrick slaps me in the face, not [40:49] physically, but emotionally like, "You [40:51] don't think we we could win this battle [40:53] with them? Like we're people like us. [40:56] Our culture is better. We're gonna win." [40:58] And it kind of just put a you know water [41:01] in my a cold water in my face and he was [41:03] right you know [41:05] >> deal is how the best founders turn the [41:07] world into their talent pool. 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The founder of [41:47] 11 Labs has a great description of the [41:49] value deal can give your company. He [41:51] said, "We built 11 Labs to break down [41:53] language and communication barriers. [41:55] With deal enabling us to hire and [41:57] support exceptional talent anywhere, we [41:59] can accelerate our innovation and bring [42:01] more voices, stories, and ideas to every [42:04] corner of the world. Deal is trusted by [42:06] over 40,000 companies and growing fast. [42:09] Learn how they can help your business by [42:11] going to deal.com/enra." [42:14] That is deal.com/enra. [42:17] I want to go back to to Geffin. So, um, [42:20] I just flew back. We have a mutual [42:21] friend in Jimmy IV, right? And the crazy [42:24] story is I'm in England with Jimmy. We [42:26] were doing this event together and I was [42:28] interviewing him on stage and then he's [42:29] like, "Hey, just fly back with me." So, [42:30] I flew with him on his plane from [42:31] England to to LA. We're on the plane. [42:34] We're sitting next to each other. He [42:35] pulls out a book. I pulled out a book. [42:36] It's the same book. And so, he I was [42:39] like, "Dude, what do you think?" I was [42:40] like, "Do you know Ari?" And he's [42:41] telling me story after story about you. [42:43] That's another guy I just called out of [42:45] the blue. I'd read about him. It's kind [42:47] of like my phrase that I like to do is [42:50] creating serendipity. You know, you read [42:52] about somebody. Same thing I did with [42:53] Michael Rapino, one of the great [42:54] executives of all time. The company was [42:57] worth $200 million. I read it in the [42:59] Wall Street Journal. I'm on vacation. I [43:00] get back. I hand it to my sister. I [43:02] said, "Get me this guy on a phone. This [43:04] is 25 years ago." And we meet and we [43:06] become fast friends. He puts me on the [43:07] board. We're going to talk about this [43:08] because you call it I think the Ari not [43:10] Ari gold the Ari manual uh rolling [43:14] school of entrepreneurship that you made [43:15] for yourself which I thought was one of [43:16] the best ideas in the book. But I want [43:18] to tell you what there's two things that [43:19] Jimmy told me and I got to ask you [43:20] about. I go is Ari really like this. [43:23] He's like if he needs something from me [43:24] he will call me 16 times in a row. I [43:27] want to talk about if that actually [43:28] works cuz it's which is shocking to me. [43:30] But [43:31] >> we talk about Geffen because he says [43:33] like David Geffen gave him some of the [43:35] best advice ever. He's just like, "Hey, [43:37] you know, me and you kind of do the same [43:38] job. You just made 500 million. I'm [43:41] doing the same thing, but I make a lot [43:42] less. I'm thinking about starting my own [43:44] record label." And he said, David goes, [43:46] he goes, "Definitely do it." And Jimmy [43:48] goes, "Why?" He goes, "Cuz there's a lot [43:49] more people dumber than you that own [43:51] record companies." [43:51] >> Listen, he's one of the great [43:54] >> consoliaries of our business. He has a [43:58] sobering look at the business and cuts [44:00] through it like in one or two lines. And [44:03] Jimmy told me this cuz he still goes to [44:05] David for Vice. He goes, "David will [44:06] tell you the fastest path from here to [44:08] there." And Jimmy's point was just like, [44:10] >> you can't always get there emotionally. [44:12] >> No, because it's your business. So you [44:14] you over complicate things in your head. [44:15] So you go to David, [44:16] >> the voice is going on. [44:17] >> Yes. And and you're like, "Oh, I have [44:18] this big problem." And he goes, "Ah, [44:20] fire that guy, buy that company, marry [44:22] that girl." And he's just like, "There's [44:24] just one thing. There's not these eight [44:25] 10 things. It's like that thing and just [44:26] do that." And he did it with you. He's [44:28] like, [44:28] >> "Just buy a [ __ ] merge with an [44:29] agency. [44:30] >> Don't sit still." I don't know how he [44:33] learned to do that. He doesn't listen to [44:35] that voice in the head. He kind of just [44:37] he sees it, does it, and he then you can [44:39] always call on him. You'll give him the [44:42] situation. [44:44] 2 seconds later, you're off the phone [44:47] and probably took me years, but he was [44:50] right. Just get one of those companies. [44:52] I think we got the right company, but he [44:55] was right. You know, you just get in [44:56] traffic, get hit. You're gonna work [44:57] harder than anybody. there's going to be [44:59] goods and he didn't say this good and [45:00] bad but you'll survive you're good and [45:03] that's kind of what he was saying. So a [45:05] lot of the guests that come on the show [45:07] then they ask me after like hey can I [45:08] help you get anybody like who who's on [45:10] the top of your list and David Gffin is [45:11] towards the top of my list like oh [45:12] that's never going to happen. He's like [45:14] way too private. [45:14] >> No he'll do it. [45:15] >> Oh then maybe I'll give you a task after [45:18] I'll give him one. [45:19] >> Yeah. So I obviously knew who you were [45:21] because of the Entourage character and [45:23] then but then when I heard you uh [45:25] writing a book I was like roll the [45:27] calls. I was like, I don't even know [45:28] what that means. So, explain why you [45:30] named the the book Roll the Calls. [45:32] >> When I'm walking into the office and I'm [45:34] down the hallway and my office is down [45:37] there, I'll just start screaming like to [45:41] my assistant, roll the calls like, you [45:43] know, people have called me. I want [45:44] people. And they just start hitting [45:46] calls. my whole life as I just said how [45:49] I met Mark Andre and that then led to [45:51] Egon Durban that then led to you know [45:53] this that and the other thing or it's a [45:55] puzzle and the way you get into the [45:57] puzzle for me is on the phone and then [46:00] meeting people after you read something [46:02] you call somebody you meet somebody and [46:04] they in a good way in my life they have [46:07] created serendipity and I've created a [46:10] world that way and rolling the calls is [46:12] how I do it and when I get into my car [46:14] and I'm on my phone I call my office [46:16] roll the calls And we're just rolling [46:18] calls. [46:18] >> I just heard you do this when you were [46:19] in the bathroom. [46:20] >> Yeah. Yeah. Like, [laughter] yeah, let's [46:22] let's roll the calls. And I don't know [46:24] where it's going to lead. Hopefully, [46:28] if I'm good at my job, [46:31] and I think this is what's great about [46:33] being an agent that's taught me in [46:35] business, like creating a TV show or a a [46:40] movie that you put together, that's [46:42] creating a puzzle. And as great as Marty [46:46] Scorsesei is or Jonah Hill or Aaron [46:48] Sorcin or or Seth McFarland or Tyler P, [46:51] my list of clients, they're incredible [46:53] artists. The job as an agent in the [46:57] entertainment business, you have to be [46:58] an incredible new idea businessman for [47:01] them on their deals and how to put a [47:04] movie together and and get through [47:06] conflict because there's always [47:08] conflict. [47:10] I've taken that skill set [47:13] and now through great teachers Egon [47:16] Nitton other people and just witnessing [47:19] people I call people when I'm in [47:21] situations I can take that same skill [47:23] set and apply it to our businesses and [47:29] that's how I live my life [47:32] rolling calls doing my thing David [47:35] Geffin getting in traffic getting hit [47:37] and not being scared [47:40] that I was scared. I I was emotionally [47:43] scared and partners have helped me [47:46] through that. Like, am I because I'm [47:48] dyslexic. Am I smart enough to do this? [47:50] I'm now I don't have that fear anymore. [47:53] And that I can get through these deals [47:55] and be creative and looking at what Egon [47:57] does, looking at what Michael Dell does, [47:58] look at they're incredible artists of [48:01] how to run a company, how to build a [48:03] company. And I think it is a great art [48:04] form. [48:05] >> Michael Dell is worth I don't know like [48:06] quarter of a trillion dollars. And I'm [48:08] telling you, he's so still underrated. [48:10] He's unbel this exactly. It's funny you [48:12] use the word puzzles cuz I that's what I [48:14] ask him about is and that's the way he [48:16] looks like a business like a giant [48:17] puzzle. [48:18] >> He's incredible. [48:18] >> And it's just like the guy started his [48:20] company at 19 with $1,000 in his dorm [48:21] room. He's in his 60s. Look what he's [48:23] doing today. [48:23] >> And he's a monster. [48:24] >> But he's also like unbelievably he's got [48:26] a very very friendly UI. He's like spent [48:28] hour spent I spent hours like there's no [48:31] reason for him to spend hours with me [48:33] teaching me stuff. But he does. [48:34] >> I promise you he's learning something [48:35] though. [48:35] >> But he's a remarkable human being. those [48:37] people that you like Mark Andre, they're [48:40] they're artists at what they do. And [48:43] here's what I don't like in the world [48:44] right now. For some reason, certain part [48:47] of the population thinks that that is a [48:50] horrible thing what these great [48:52] businessmen have done. Like they think [48:54] it's a no no that they've created great [48:57] wealth for people, great wealth for the [48:58] country, great great and that in some [49:01] way it's not good. And I love [49:03] capitalism. I think it's an incredible [49:05] >> son of a Cuban immigrant. Like I [49:07] literally all Israeli [49:08] >> I tell this story over and like this is [49:10] not a joke. I grew up in South Florida. [49:11] I literally I remember being [ __ ] 9 [49:13] years old and meeting people that came [49:14] over here on rafts [49:16] >> and all just like okay well how many [49:18] people go to the end of South Florida [49:19] and put your you have four kids [49:21] >> and when when they were small put them [49:23] on a raft to Cuba. That's a one-way [49:25] trip. It comes in this direction. Why? [49:28] Why is that happening? What's going on? [49:29] It like I knew instinctively like this [49:31] is like a very very special like very [49:33] very special place. [49:34] >> I don't get And it's like I want to [49:35] learn from these people. So let me go to [49:37] the next question I have for you. [49:38] Explain this like Arya Emanuel Rolling [49:40] School of Entrepreneurship. When did you [49:42] get the idea and how long have you been [49:43] doing it? It just started like one of [49:46] the first ideas about this my boss at [49:49] this company inner talent this guy Bill [49:51] Block who was running it. He was a [49:53] really curious guy and he read this book [49:54] called and we talk all the time now [49:57] still [49:57] >> still sits there. [49:58] >> Yeah. Yeah. And he read this book back [50:00] in the day. I think this is 92, [50:04] Life After Television by George Gilder. [50:07] I read the book, very short book, thank [50:09] God, being dyslexic. And um I call [50:12] George. I don't know how this came about [50:14] in my life that I would just read an [50:16] article, call the guy, people would pick [50:18] up, but it just happens to me. And I, as [50:21] you know, as you read in the book, if [50:23] they don't call me, I call them and call [50:25] them and call them until they do call [50:27] me. Sometimes people think it's [50:28] stalking. if you can use some levity and [50:31] some humor and some self-deprecation, [50:34] you get away with it and don't get [50:36] committed to a jail. And he started [50:38] talking to me about the business, that [50:41] little thing. And has led me to [50:44] realizing when we started the business [50:46] in '95, there's going to be more [50:49] television and it's about the how how [50:52] distribution is going to change. Same [50:53] amount of people making content, maybe [50:55] some new content, which we now have [50:56] podcast, social media, etc. you know, [50:59] micro dramas [51:01] and that content creators were going to [51:02] be more valuable. That premise was all I [51:04] needed to start the company with my [51:07] three other partners had believed in the [51:08] same thing. And that just continues my [51:12] relationship with Michael Rupino, one of [51:15] the great executives of all time. Grew [51:16] up $200 million company now to [51:20] 4050 billion. I don't know what he's [51:22] done. It's incredible. Mark Andre, I [51:24] mean, it's just my life. That's how I [51:27] live my life. And those are the puzzles [51:28] I create. And I then, the great thing [51:30] about it, I get to always tap into them [51:33] and call them if something's coming up [51:35] and take him to lunch and listen to him. [51:38] You know, same thing. That's how I met [51:39] Elon. He was I read about him starting a [51:41] car company. I didn't know the guy. I [51:43] called him. We met and we have an [51:46] incredible relationship. Like most [51:47] friendships, I don't agree with him all [51:50] the time. I do agree with him. I learn a [51:52] ton. I disagree a ton. Life. What have [51:56] you learned from Elon? [51:58] >> He gave [52:00] early on where AI was going. I mean, he [52:03] he he was talking about AI in 2007 [52:08] what it was going to be and then he [52:10] enabled one sports was going to live was [52:14] going to be important. Definitely sports [52:16] was going to be important. talked about [52:17] that so did Egon and then he said the [52:21] only thing that is can't be [52:24] disintermediated [52:26] by AI is live in the entertainment [52:29] business I mean he didn't talk about [52:31] anything because I was asking about the [52:32] entertainment but and that's what gave [52:35] you know the the idea behind Mari and uh [52:39] so we're now building pretty big [52:41] business in the line but [52:42] >> how is Mari related to TKO [52:44] >> separate company [52:44] >> separate company but they're doing [52:46] similar things. [52:47] >> Yeah. One's in sports pure. [52:48] >> Yes. [52:49] >> And one's in live events from art to um [52:53] uh car auctions to holiday events to [52:57] tennis events. It's just a live events. [53:00] Michael Rapino is just in music. [53:01] >> Okay. [53:02] >> TKO is just in sports, right? It's a [53:05] sports, you know, live business. And [53:08] Mari is an events business. There's some [53:10] sports assets. We have the the Miami [53:12] Open, the Madrid Open in tennis. We have [53:15] participatory sports, Escape from [53:17] Alcatraz. We have a collectible business [53:21] in in Freeze and Barrett Jackson and [53:23] this thing called Collectcon, which is [53:24] in the Pokemon space. And so it will be [53:27] everything live events on a global [53:29] basis. [53:29] >> How do you split your time? Is are these [53:31] the two main companies you're almost [53:32] 100% of your time? [53:33] >> These are two companies. [53:34] >> Okay. And like what's the split right [53:36] now? Cuz one is obviously huge and [53:38] growing, but this one's brand new. [53:39] >> Well, time's a crazy thing. Like Yeah. I [53:42] spend a lot of time on both. you know, [53:45] and [53:46] yeah, I just I just work. Okay. [53:49] >> I have my clients. I still do my clients [53:51] cuz it's important for TKO and [53:52] everything else. I had been doing all [53:54] the work around Mari. So, it's what I've [53:56] been doing anyway. And and TKO. [53:58] >> Okay. I want to go back to the very [54:00] beginning of the book, the very [54:00] beginning of your career. Basically, [54:01] start of your your new life, right? Uh [54:05] that took you on the path of where you [54:06] are today. It can be traced back to when [54:07] you're 24 years old. You see this job [54:09] listing. I'm going to be assistant to [54:11] talent agent. You don't even know what a [54:12] talent agent was. Well, I kind of did. [54:14] This guy Mike Mendlesson [54:16] um told me he like I landed in New York [54:20] and I and I friend of a friend and and [54:23] he says what William Morris is. You [54:24] know, I'm from the Midwest. I didn't [54:26] know. [54:26] >> I had no idea what an agent I didn't [54:28] know they existed. And for whatever [54:30] reason, it kind of like that seems like [54:33] I would be good at that. I could do [54:34] There's a handful of things I took away [54:36] from that section of the book that I [54:37] think are really important that you kind [54:38] of used your entire life and continue to [54:40] develop was like [54:41] >> one um Robbie had the same kind of [54:44] school of entrepreneurship but he did it [54:46] through like dictation and writing [54:47] letters of the great minds and they they [54:49] carry on like this discourse which is [54:51] and I was like oh [ __ ] Ari does that [54:52] later on with yeah with his phone right [54:56] uh the other thing that that I thought [54:58] was very interesting too is you had [55:00] somebody older really successful telling [55:01] you a young man hey I I can't serve you [55:04] anymore. You have insane talent and [55:06] drive. Move west and go build your own [55:08] empire. [55:09] >> And then one of the third things that [55:11] most important is you got to listen in [55:12] on his calls. And this guy used to be at [55:14] the top of his game, right? And then now [55:16] you have this younger, this is a tails [55:18] all the time, younger, hungrier kid [55:21] that's coming for what you want and [55:23] you're listening. [55:24] >> He was the king. Mike, Mike, even though [55:26] he's younger and hungry, oitz, [55:30] >> you know, there's Lou Osman on Mount [55:31] Rushmore. [55:32] >> Yes. And Mike Oitz on Mount Rushmore. [55:35] And Mike Oitz created what nobody had [55:38] created. He created the packaging [55:40] business and the movie business. Saw [55:42] what all these other guys and there was [55:44] lots and lots of agencies. But he four [55:47] guys or five guys. I I don't [55:49] >> the same story as you 20 years later [55:52] >> and he had Ron Meyer and Bill Haber. It [55:54] was Patrick and I and Lou Wasserman had [55:57] Juel Stein [55:59] and um they had a vision for what the [56:02] movie business and TV business could be. [56:04] Remember they made a fortune because of [56:07] Bill Haber in the television business. [56:09] There's a parallel here to your own [56:11] career because people are like, "Oh, [56:12] this UFC thing is like dirty. It's like [56:14] low class or whatever. It can't be a [56:16] good business." You're like, "You don't [56:17] know what you're talking about." The CIA [56:19] talked about they were called like the [56:21] TV guys. It was a pjorative, [56:24] >> right? and and they made the transfer. [56:25] >> Yes. [56:25] >> But here's the one thing I I don't know [56:27] if you I got to go back and listen to [56:29] your episode with Mike and this is my [56:32] conclusion. I have no idea. I would [56:34] actually I should call Mike about this. [56:36] >> Like he takes over the Coke business, [56:40] the advertising business for Coke. [56:42] >> Now Mike Oitz in the world of business [56:46] and entertainment [56:48] >> was at the echelon. [56:50] I just didn't understand why Mike at [56:52] that point because he could have raised [56:53] any amount of money he wanted like [56:55] didn't go buy [56:57] gray gray advertising back then was a [57:00] really big advertising I don't know I [57:01] think they handled coke I would I might [57:03] be wrong maybe it was m [57:04] >> man McCann [57:06] like that would have changed the added a [57:09] new leg to the stool and I don't know if [57:13] he just didn't think about it because he [57:15] thought about a lot of stuff or he [57:17] didn't want to do it or he thought the [57:20] economics were not going to be right for [57:21] him. But that would have completely [57:23] changed his business and then led to as [57:27] David Gavin said more traffic that he [57:30] you never know what it would have led to [57:31] but that's how I always thought about [57:33] that like why didn't he buy an [57:34] advertising agency and do more clients [57:37] unless he I don't know and that's for us [57:41] what Patrick and I did and Mark Shapiro [57:43] and Ian we realized no we want to own an [57:46] asset. [57:46] >> Yeah. And that it maybe was in the back [57:50] of our heads looking at what he did that [57:52] he didn't do it. And I think there's 90 [57:55] reasons why he didn't do it or something [57:57] must have been cuz he's too smart not to [57:58] have done it. We we concluded we should [58:01] do it for where the world was going for [58:03] us at that point in time. Go back to [58:06] what were you hearing though? What was [58:07] the difference? You're on the phone [58:08] call. You're on Robbie Lance. [58:10] >> You're listening to oitz young and [58:12] hungry. He's stealing like Pacino. I was [58:14] stealing all these clients from your [58:16] boss. [58:16] >> What are you hearing these phone calls [58:18] difference between Robbie and Oitz at [58:19] the time? [58:20] >> One, I never heard what he said to [58:21] clients. Like his salesmanship and Ron [58:25] Meyer salesmanship and Bill Haber [58:26] salesmanship [snorts] was far superior [58:29] and backed up by everything they did. [58:31] Packaging movies, [58:34] forcing studios to take them. Different [58:36] day and age cuz he had the DVD business [58:38] and and all that. and he was selling [58:43] I can only conclude cuz I wasn't on the [58:44] calls or in signing meetings [58:47] that they were packaging machine and [58:49] it's going to be beneficial. Remember if [58:51] I'm right I think I am Jules Stein [58:56] when Luasha was there they were signing [58:58] people cuz they had a different they [59:00] figured out a tax loophole for clients [59:03] to save them money and that's why they [59:05] signed a lot of people. Mike had this [59:08] pitch. Again, I don't have all the facts [59:12] that his his ability to package was [59:16] unprecedented for movies and television. [59:19] And it was true. That's his genius and [59:21] Ron Meyer's genius. This whole packaging [59:24] thing that they created and the [59:25] production business for stars and [59:28] creating projects for them that they [59:30] don't only have to be an actor, they can [59:32] be a producer. And it was like nobody [59:35] had thought about that. And he did it [59:37] and he and he actually had done he did [59:39] it, you know, and so he recreated the [59:42] business. [59:43] >> Yeah. The first time I met Mark Andre, I [59:45] asked him because, you know, he's he's [59:47] open about, "Hey, I designed A16Z on [59:50] CIA." And I go, "What do you think [59:52] Oitz's superpower is?" He goes, "He's [59:53] the world's greatest agent." And I go, [59:55] "What does that mean?" And I go I go, [59:56] "What does that mean?" He goes, "That [59:57] means he's the world's great greatest [59:58] salesman." [59:59] >> Yeah. [59:59] >> And so even I'll tell you right now, he [60:02] like one of the greats [60:04] >> as an agent. I mean, I worked directly [60:07] for Bill Haber and and Mike was there, [60:11] >> but don't discount [60:13] Rodney Meyer. He was incredible. [60:17] >> As smooth as it got. [60:19] >> Anytime you see somebody that's like [60:20] world class what they do, their team is [60:21] going to be world class, too. [60:23] Incredible. [60:23] >> It's 100%. But I I I need to get to this [60:25] crazy transformation [60:27] because me, you know, I was I was [60:29] seeking your advice. I'm obsessed with, [60:31] you know, people that you have decades [60:33] on me. So, like you know where I'm going [60:35] and I asked I was like, "Hey, what were [60:36] you doing when you were my age?" [60:37] >> Don't have the guilt that I had [60:39] >> about [clears throat] not not seeing [60:40] your kids. [60:41] >> We're going to We can talk about [60:42] everything publicly. I'm fine with that. [60:44] But my thing about you is like you're [60:46] like a more relaxed version than I even [60:49] thought from the book. Uh definitely [60:51] still I heard you on the phone so it's [60:52] like you know but like you're I thought [60:54] you know I was going to get like another [60:55] re gold or something like that. Book [60:57] Stars of Rage talks about bundle of [60:59] anxiety, bundle of fear, not feeling [61:02] safe, right? [61:03] >> Being angry, getting hit by a [ __ ] [61:04] car and almost dying and then realizing, [61:06] hey, this isn't a dress rehearsal. I [61:08] think is most important part, one of [61:09] most important things to have in your [61:10] life. [61:10] >> Like when did you decide, hey, I I got [61:13] to make this change because like if I [61:15] keep living life like this bundle of [61:18] uncontrollable rage, like I'm actually [61:19] going to have an unhappy life. [61:21] >> You know, there's a character in there [61:22] called Dr. calm, which is my shrink. And [61:26] he he had this concept called the ego [61:28] project. You know, [61:31] we all think we can control certain [61:33] things. And you know, [61:36] you have this thing about your legacy, [61:38] all these things that are bottled up in [61:40] the ego. [61:42] And he was trying to break it down and [61:43] and teach me there's your plan and then [61:46] there's somebody else's plan. [61:49] And [61:51] it started with the car like it's not a [61:54] dress rehearsal. [61:55] >> How old were you when you got 32? [61:58] >> Okay. [61:58] >> Right. And you know when you're 32 you [62:00] my career's going great, life is great, [62:02] I'm physically great, you know, and you [62:06] just realize it could end like that. And [62:09] that starts a chain of reactions in your [62:12] brain like you have to constantly remind [62:14] yourself [62:16] getting sick with the UFC like oh no [62:18] you're not invincible [62:21] you're invincible right you're human and [62:23] you know you think you can control all [62:24] this stuff and if you play the chess [62:27] match out in your head you're going to [62:29] win and when you don't you that's when [62:31] you get angry. I just kept on working on [62:34] it and realizing and wanting to get [62:36] better and not enjoying the rage all the [62:39] time, you know, just like you get older [62:41] and you get tired of it. At what age did [62:44] you start to feel tired of the rage? [62:47] Well, here's what I realized. I want to [62:49] be real, really successful. [62:53] I realized that rage and anger and the [62:56] way I was operating the business, you [62:58] could never get to really big heights. [63:02] >> Why? [63:02] >> I wasn't happy with how I was living my [63:05] life. And you know, one of the things [63:07] that the book does, it tell [63:11] like there's there's JR who helped me [63:14] write the book like there's three weeks [63:16] I cannot book what he remind he showed [63:19] me early when we were doing this like [63:21] this would happen in these three weeks. [63:23] This was happen in this month. Like I'm [63:25] like how the [ __ ] did that happen? you [63:27] know, like all these things, you know, [63:29] going to visit my daughter when she was [63:31] in Montana Academy and in the mountains [63:34] of Utah and then coming back and then [63:36] this thing deal happened and then that [63:37] deal happened or it's just like it's [63:39] insane. And that's not I wasn't I wasn't [63:42] enjoying it, right? Even though I was [63:45] getting through it, I wasn't enjoying [63:47] it. And that just took a process. I I [63:50] saw the toll it took on my marriage, [63:52] which is, you know, things get left [63:55] behind. I I didn't I don't think if you [63:58] ask my kids and I think my wife my [64:00] ex-wife and I scored a touchdown with [64:02] four incredible kids. That was great. [64:05] But I didn't think I could progress [64:07] which I wanted to and the company could [64:11] do what it do and and where I wanted to [64:13] build it was possible in the state I [64:15] was. And so then I just went on a path [64:17] of like meeting people meeting people [64:20] that were going to help me realize how [64:22] to get become a better person. And that [64:24] took [64:27] shamans and, you know, other means to [64:29] get there that were different from Dr. K [64:32] that enabled me to realize, you know, [64:35] the world's been around for 3,000 years. [64:38] I'm still competitive, [64:40] but there's a different way to be [64:41] competitive. I never realized like going [64:44] on a vacation could be better than not [64:47] going on a vacation. I thought it was [64:48] like, you know, so bad for you. Jeff [64:51] Bezos says to me, I don't know, a lot of [64:54] years ago, he says to me, you know, you [64:57] just have to realize when you're on the [64:58] field, be on the field, but it's okay to [65:01] get off the field. And when you're off [65:03] the field, get off the field. And don't [65:07] play the chess match. Don't be scared of [65:10] getting off the field. You know, it's [65:13] not a bad thing cuz it makes when you're [65:15] on the field even you're more potent. [65:19] And I never used to do get off the [65:21] field. [65:21] >> So eyes open and [65:23] >> constantly working. [65:24] >> And that that plus doing 5 MO and other [65:28] things that helped me [65:31] realize this whole thing about legacy [65:33] which is [ __ ] in my mind or the ego [65:36] project or any of these other however [65:38] you want to box it. The reason I I have [65:41] been telling all my friends about this [65:42] book too is just like how brutally [65:44] honest you are because like you're one [65:45] of the most successful people in the [65:45] world of what you're doing at the time [65:47] and yet in the book at the same time [65:48] you're the most successful person in [65:49] your field. You're also searching for [65:51] like trying to fix what's wrong with [65:52] you, what you feel is wrong with you [65:53] inside to the point where you're like [65:54] makes you better. You do this meditation [65:56] retreat and I want to uh read this part [65:57] of the book. You do this 5day meditation [65:59] retreat in I think India. India [66:01] >> and there's this guy you name in the [66:02] book as the leader [66:04] >> and this is I'm just going to read you [66:06] know a few sentences. Jennifer Walsh [66:08] from um who helped get rid of Jim Wyatt [66:12] turned me on to this guy. So after you [66:15] shive somebody in the back, you need to [66:16] go on a 5day meditation retreat. [66:19] >> But he says you can't live in a world of [66:21] war and anger and also in a world of [66:23] beauty. You must choose. Do you want to [66:24] live in a beautiful state? And then the [66:25] last thing, one of the last things he [66:26] says to you, he says, do whatever you do [66:28] for the joy, the artistry, or else don't [66:30] do it. Then in serenity, move on. [66:33] >> Great line. At that time that you heard [66:35] that line though, were you in a place [66:36] where you could actually accept that [66:38] advice or did it take a while? [66:39] >> Day one it was like going over my [66:41] childhood dyslexia [66:44] finding identity or the lack of identity [66:47] trying to get identity and what that [66:49] means fear of being found out all what [66:53] that caused. My mother was incredible [66:56] that she got me to read and but you know [66:59] she had her own issues and about from [67:02] her parents and and we're incredible [67:06] people because of my two parents my [67:08] brothers and I and but there's like all [67:11] of us my kids are going to have to go [67:13] through therapy because of me right and [67:15] this guy said said to me and Dr. Comm [67:18] still I was seeing him said you're [67:20] really successful. Stop worrying if [67:23] you're going to be found out and think [67:24] that you're stupid. You're not. Dr. K [67:27] said in a different way. In the 50s [67:29] really successful people were really [67:30] great businessmen. Really smart people [67:32] were considered businessmen as opposed [67:33] to people that can read. And I had this [67:35] whole image because of how I brought up [67:36] an education. The only smart people are [67:38] people that can read. And I thought [67:39] there's all these people that are [67:40] smarter than me because they had all [67:41] these other things. And I just got [67:44] calmer in this process. [67:47] of you're not stupid and you're you [67:51] don't have to worry. You're not going to [67:52] be found out that you're stupid. You're [67:53] actually what I do is an art form [67:58] and comfortable with what that is as [68:00] opposed to thinking I should be all [68:02] these other things. Just be comfortable [68:04] here and that doesn't take away from any [68:06] of my aggression, any of my desire to be [68:09] successful, any of that other stuff. And [68:11] that took a long process. the one thing [68:13] you you did a lot of things to try to [68:15] like alleviate this and try to figure [68:16] like the inner world of of yourself out. [68:18] But [68:19] >> Renee Brown also reading that book, you [68:21] know, about anxiety and and and fear of [68:25] exposing yourself. I I uh and kind of [68:28] being vulnerable and being able to say [68:30] what I'm saying. [68:31] >> Is this is this rooted in like [68:32] insecurity? [68:33] >> Yeah, [68:34] remember I came from a family my father [68:37] was an immigrant. My mother is the first [68:39] generation [68:40] >> from my father's side. were the first [68:42] generation education [68:45] and that was everything. [68:50] I wasn't great at it. I couldn't read, [68:52] >> right? [68:53] >> And you held it held on to that for [68:55] decade after decades. [68:56] >> Some of the times it never leaves. And [68:58] this is very common in like the the top [69:00] entrepreneurs. Uh somebody that's you [69:02] know built over $100 million company [69:04] from scratch deck a billionaire himself [69:06] still young. I remember like uh talking [69:08] to him one time and it was kind of [69:10] obvious what what his answer to this [69:12] question I was about to ask him was this [69:13] is in private and I was like wait a [69:15] minute what's uh what's your inner [69:16] monologue like and he goes why do I suck [69:19] so much [laughter] listen I was like [69:21] there's nobody objectively nobody on the [69:23] planet thinks you're not talented as do [69:24] you have brothers and sisters [69:25] >> yeah I have an older brother younger [69:26] sister [69:27] >> and where are you in that mix [69:28] >> I'm a middle child [69:29] >> okay so if you've read about this the [69:32] oldest child has a point of view on [69:34] stuff and how they act the middle child [69:36] has their point of view. The baby has [69:38] their point of view. [69:40] >> If you're a single child, there's a [69:43] whole different psychology. And I [69:44] believe all those things. And we all [69:46] have those issues to battle through. And [69:51] I was the baby, my brother Zeke, my mom, [69:54] smart one, Rahm, who's very smart, the [69:56] artist, and I was the other one, you [69:58] know. And so that sits on you. [70:01] >> Yeah. [70:01] >> You know, and I say it all the time. I [70:04] just want my mom to love me, you know, [70:05] for one week more than she loves you [70:07] guys. [laughter] [70:10] >> Tell me about the the the use of like [70:12] psychedelics. I think you call it the [70:14] toad in the book. That [70:16] >> Okay. Five. That's the best psychedelic [70:18] in the world. [70:19] >> Okay. But this is literally the the [70:21] turning point. Okay. So talk about so a [70:23] friend again guy I met he had done this [70:27] psychedelic with this guy in in New [70:29] Mexico [70:31] and he explained it to me you know [70:35] and I said okay and most of the time [70:37] when I do my health stuff and I consider [70:39] this a health thing and a emotional [70:43] thing which is part of health I always [70:45] call my brother Zeke [70:47] and I asked him the very simple [70:49] question. And I said, "Can it kill me?" [70:51] And he said, "No." So I said, "Okay, [70:53] I'll do it. I'll try it." So I go to New [70:55] Mexico with Stad, my wife, at the time [70:59] we [clears throat] weren't married. [71:01] >> What's going on in your life? [71:02] >> At this point? [71:03] >> Yeah. So you went through a divorce. [71:04] >> I'm I'm divorced at this point. [71:06] >> You're in a new relationship. Your [71:07] business is Isn't it Is this co Isn't [71:09] your business [ __ ] up or no? [71:11] >> 22. Okay. [71:12] >> 2022. [71:14] And it was, you know, we're kind of [71:15] coming out of it and [71:18] Fight Island had already happened with [71:19] the UFC and we were just starting to [71:22] come back a little bit. So with 5 MO, [71:25] which is Toad or Bufu, whatever they [71:28] call it, [71:30] you smoke it, you read a poem, which is [71:32] horrible. You have to read a [ __ ] [71:33] poem. I'm dyslexic going, "What the [71:34] [ __ ] I can't get away from this reading [71:36] thing." [laughter] [71:37] And um and you have to read out loud. [71:40] Jesus. And so you go offline offline. I [71:44] don't know how to describe it other than [71:46] I got another way to describe it for 10 [71:48] minutes and then you're tripping for [71:50] about 30 minutes and you realize how [71:53] small we are in the world and it's like [71:58] how meaningless in a weird way. Not in a [72:00] bad way that you don't want to work or [72:02] anything that you're not aggressive or [72:03] any of that stuff. just you realize okay [72:06] I understand what it is and and you want [72:08] a meaningful life and not a just okay [72:12] and that like more than Dr. come. Not in [72:16] a bad way. Just help me with the ego [72:18] project. Realizing legacy is [ __ ] [72:21] You just want to be here, be happy, do [72:23] the best thing you can, and enjoy your [72:26] life while working really hard and have [72:28] a purpose. And that just started a [72:32] process for me, experimenting a little [72:34] bit. And [72:36] I think I'm calmer now. Not that I'm not [72:39] I mean, most people in my office would [72:40] say that I'm not calm. This is the part [72:42] I need to understand though because Mark [72:43] Andre, who you mentioned a couple times, [72:45] he was on the show. He's incredible. [72:46] >> But one of the things that he talked [72:48] about on the show was that he hates that [72:50] everybody in Silicon Valley is trying to [72:52] get everybody to do psychedelics because [72:53] then the founders won't work as hard. [72:55] >> That's not true. That's completely that [72:57] that's complete [ __ ] [72:58] >> Okay. So, this is what I didn't [73:00] understand from the book. [73:00] >> I have this argument with Mark. [73:02] >> Okay. [73:02] >> Yeah. I mean, it's all [ __ ] [73:03] >> Okay. But tell me the difference. Okay. [73:05] So, the difference in your work as a [73:07] person, it made you more maybe more [73:09] content, more [73:11] sitting there right now worried about [73:15] what my [73:18] legacy will be. It's going to be what [73:21] it's going to be. There's going to be [73:22] good parts. There's going to be bad [73:24] parts. As we talked about pretaping, who [73:26] was the most important businessman [73:30] 1953? What company? What's the guy? [73:33] >> I named him and then you're like, "Okay, [73:34] you were not supposed to know that." [73:35] >> You're the only person in the world that [73:36] knows. You know, [73:37] >> Alfred Sloan of GM. No one gives a [ __ ] [73:40] >> right? And he was the god, [73:43] >> right? Barely people know who Louman [73:47] was. So that's okay. Presidents, some [73:51] entertainment people, some singers, some [73:54] authors, very few people are going to [73:56] have probably people that did bad [73:58] things, bigger legacies, right? Really, [74:01] that's what we're that's what we're [74:03] doing this for. I'm doing this because I [74:05] love it. It brings purpose and meaning [74:08] to me. Great. Nine months ago, a year [74:11] ago, I created this company with Mark [74:14] Shapiro and other people. Mari, [74:17] we're going for it. We have a vision for [74:19] it. You're not halfassing things cuz you [74:21] did DMT. [74:22] >> Zero halfassing [laughter] [74:23] things, right? There's still plenty of [74:25] calls up at 5:00 this morning. Work out [74:29] in the office. Did a a another podcast. [74:33] I got you. I'm going to Monaceto for [74:35] something. working my tail off. The last [74:38] three weeks have been incredible. My [74:40] until the end of the year, as my wife [74:43] said to me, she goes, "What are you?" [74:45] You know, but I if I didn't think it was [74:49] meaningful to me and personally and I [74:51] enjoyed it, I wouldn't be doing it as [74:53] hard at times as it is. [74:55] >> Yeah. I don't think a guy like you can [74:56] just sit on the beach. I think you'd be [74:57] miserable. [74:58] >> I think miserable. I think most people, [75:01] one, I think this is stupid. [75:05] They care how high their stack is on [75:06] money. I never think about it. I I have [75:10] money [75:11] >> obviously. [75:11] >> I'm not sitting there. [75:15] >> It's ridiculous. [75:16] >> And I'm not like looking at that person. [75:18] Oh, he's got more and I'm I'm not I [75:20] don't do that. [75:21] >> Yeah. [75:22] >> I work really hard. It's going to be [75:23] what it's going to be. I love the [75:25] puzzle. That's what I love. You have [75:27] this great thing a line where you quote [75:28] Ben Franklin in the book. You're like, [75:30] "I don't think you have any tattoos." [75:31] And you said, "If I had any tattoos, I [75:33] get across my knuckles. There is no [75:34] little enemy, which is kind of a [75:36] gangster line in the book, by the way. [75:37] But that's not even my favorite um Ben [75:39] Franklin quote. My favorite Ben Franklin [75:41] quote is it's I'm going to paraphrase. [75:42] It's like like it's just how you spend [75:44] your time cuz that's what life is made [75:45] up of. Life is not made up of the money. [75:47] Life is made up of time. And then what [75:48] we talked about in relationship, [75:50] >> you know, it's going to be you know it's [75:51] going to be over. It could be over [75:52] tomorrow. [75:53] >> Oh, you got hit by you could have died [75:54] 30 years ago. Like you know if that guy [75:56] was going a little faster. I just did I [75:59] just did this um podcast with Cara [76:01] Swisser and I love Carara. I completely [76:05] disagree with her. I love the fight. [76:07] She's incredible. She [snorts] was [76:09] working for Rupert I think it was. She [76:12] had a stroke flying over in coach. [76:15] Didn't realize it. And that was [76:17] liberating as as horrible as it was when [76:20] she was going to China or Hong Kong for [76:22] a conference at first. Like who [ __ ] [76:25] knew? She didn't know. like and [76:27] something she fixed it and she's better [76:30] and she's incredible and she's you I [76:32] love arguing with her because I [76:34] completely disagree with her on a lot of [76:35] things and I agree with her on some [76:36] things. [76:38] Had a stroke like you you're 50 like who [76:42] knew this realization about like how I [76:45] want to spend my time. Forget legacy. [76:47] Forget trying to have the biggest stack. [76:49] Forget trying to be uh in Steve Jobs [76:50] word the richest man in the cemetery [76:51] which makes no sense. This this this [76:54] realization came after decades of [76:55] therapy. You don't think it would have [76:57] happened without doing the halluc? [76:59] >> No. [77:00] >> And then after the fact, you're calmer [77:02] internally. You can go back to the Bezos [77:04] idea where it's like, all right, you're [77:06] on the field. You're on the you need to [77:07] be on the field, but you need to learn [77:08] how to get off the field. So, you're [77:09] able to do that then. Yeah. [77:11] >> But your work ethic doesn't go away. [77:12] >> No, I work constantly. You know, still [77:15] on vacation, of course, you work cuz [77:17] that whole concept that you're not [77:19] working, you're working, but you're [77:21] you're also enjoying different things. [77:23] you're you're doing I I never when I was [77:25] growing up and starting the businesses. [77:28] I never I thought I felt so bad when I [77:31] took any time away from the work. The [77:34] problem is you can be so obsessed with [77:35] your work, which obviously you were. [77:36] >> I'm obsessed. You're scheduling the [77:38] book. I I literally thought I was like, [77:40] "This guy's doing like 3D chess or 4D [77:42] chess or something because when you go I [77:44] wake up, I do like 40 minutes of [77:45] stretching. I do dynamic warm-ups. I do [77:47] sauna, red light therapy. It's like this [77:49] 2-hour thing." ago. He's trying to get [77:51] his competitors to waste two hours in [77:53] the morning doing this [ __ ] while [77:54] he's rolling calls. [77:55] >> You know, can I tell you something? That [77:57] whole that morning routine. That is my [78:01] drug. I don't drink. I don't smoke. I [78:04] don't do any of that. It makes me feel [78:06] so good. And so I can go and and be my [78:09] best. Um other people have other things. [78:12] It kind of like is the perfect start. [78:16] One cup of coffee, ready to go. Just one [78:18] other thing I want to talk to you about [78:20] and this is uh again the impact because [78:23] you you you you rep Mark Wahberg, right? [78:25] And then he's like, "Hey, Ari, I got [78:27] this idea." Uh because he had this crew [78:29] from the East Coast, his entourage, [78:31] >> his entourage uh and I think Mark came [78:35] up with it was either Mark or his [78:36] manager, longtime manager Steve Lensson, [78:38] who was E, [78:40] >> came up with I don't remember which one [78:41] of them came up with Entra, but it's the [78:43] perfect name. [78:43] >> And then you wind up selling it, right? [78:45] And then you kind of forget about it, [78:46] right? [78:47] >> Yeah. at the time. Yeah. Before [78:49] >> But you didn't think you had there was [78:50] no again goes back to the fact that you [78:52] like to say flexible every day because [78:53] you can't predict a lot of things. You [78:55] had no idea the cultural impact that was [78:56] going to have. [78:57] >> I thought it was going to be completely [78:58] negative on my career, my life, etc. [79:02] Mark Wahberg and Steve Levenson, his [79:03] manager said, "You don't realize it." [79:06] Cuz the show started getting hot. [79:08] >> Yeah. [79:09] >> And he goes, "This is going to be the [79:10] greatest thing that ever happened to [79:11] you." And I completely didn't believe [79:12] him. I thought it was horrible. My wife, [79:15] Max's wife, hated it. I would never [79:18] watch it because it was Mrs. Ari Sunday [79:21] night in bed. I mean, I didn't want to [79:24] go through any of that. I just started [79:25] watching it. I've gone when [79:28] >> I've gotten through two seasons. He [79:30] Yeah, right now. [79:31] >> It's the first time. He's now just [79:36] gotten fired or laid off and he's [79:39] started the new agency. [79:40] >> Okay, hold on. But there's a [79:41] >> I I'm gonna get to that the rest of the [79:43] season rest of the seasons. I just [79:45] watched this other like short interview [79:46] you did and they're like giving you [79:48] lines of other people and they're like [79:51] did you say it who said this line and [79:52] you're reading this it's like this [79:54] sounds like something I said and then it [79:56] was actually a line from Ari Gold but in [79:57] the book you said after a while you [79:59] couldn't no it was leading I was [80:01] following [80:01] >> talk about this well you know you're [80:03] sitting there the show becomes a hit [80:07] >> people are saying things to you from the [80:09] show which I'm not watching and you're [80:11] like did I say that right and and your [80:15] character of yourself as a person. You [80:18] don't know, but it is opening doors. My [80:21] brother's in the White House and and and [80:23] a congressman also before that, a pretty [80:24] big congressman. [80:26] And it just kind of like the full kind [80:30] of volcano happens. And [80:33] you know, it it was bizarre that and I [80:38] think it happened to a bunch of Mark's [80:40] friends, too, that were characters. And [80:43] it just was a bizarre event that people [80:46] would come up and say, "Hug it out, [80:48] bitch." And I was like, "What the fuck?" [80:49] You know, and then I would do it, you [80:52] know? Uh it was hor it was great and [80:54] horrible and funny and you're like, [80:56] "What? Weird." [80:57] >> But it had a material like a huge [80:59] financial impact to your business [81:00] >> because I could get anybody on the phone [81:02] and I could the the puzzle pieces got [81:05] easier because I could talk to anybody I [81:07] wanted. They all picked up the phone. I [81:09] could come up with stupid ideas. They [81:11] would meet me. I didn't know what the [81:12] what it was going to end up to but it [81:13] kind of helped in business and it gave [81:16] me people an impression good bad and [81:19] different of me mainly good of who I was [81:22] podcast to some degree obviously really [81:24] everything back to the thing I'm [81:25] obsessed with playing a similar role in [81:27] like when the guests come on uh in my [81:30] show and some other [81:30] >> you think they know who you are [81:31] >> no no no well no no to them so obviously [81:34] I would focus hyper focus on [81:35] entrepreneurship so you're investor [81:37] you're entrepreneur your founder your [81:38] CEO stuff like that and they'll come on [81:40] and then I'll hear from them later on. [81:41] They're like, "Every single meeting I [81:43] go," he's like, "There's no such thing [81:44] as a cold meeting anymore." Yeah. [81:45] >> He's like, "They've all [81:46] >> that's a very good way to say it. [81:48] >> There was no cold meeting." [81:49] >> And they're like, "It's in crazy [81:51] impactful." And then in some extreme [81:52] cases, like this guy, Brad Jacobs, who [81:54] wrote this book called How to Make a Few [81:55] Billion. He started eight separate [81:56] billion dollar companies. Then that book [81:58] was so successful. I did a uh book [82:00] review of it on my other podcast. He [82:02] wrote another book a year or two later, [82:03] so called How to Make a Few More [82:05] Billion. And in that book, he talks [82:07] about the fact that two people didn't [82:09] know who he was. I covered his book. He [82:12] raised $750 million from two people in [82:15] my audience. He put it in, it's in [82:16] writing. It's in his book. He's like, I [82:18] had because he had had no idea the [82:19] impact like podcast have. It's just [82:21] like, well, this guy seems interesting. [82:22] Let me go investigate what he's working [82:23] on. There's a bunch of dealmakers in the [82:25] audience. Oh, of course that's going to [82:26] lead to it. But like that idea, it's [82:28] like there's no such thing as a cold [82:29] meeting anymore. [82:30] >> For sure. I mean, actually J.R. says [82:33] about it, you know, are you sure you [82:35] want to go here and show [clears throat] [82:37] all the [ __ ] [82:39] scabs in the book? I said, [82:42] >> I don't know how to do it any other way. [82:43] He goes, well, people when you walk in a [82:45] room, people are going to think they [82:46] know you. And I said, that's fine. I [82:48] don't mind. You know, I had a little bit [82:50] with Entourage and they, you know, but [82:52] I'm okay with that. And now kids come up [82:55] to me that are now young kids still [82:57] watching Entourage and there's a whole [82:59] new generation. And the good thing is [83:03] hopefully they get out of the book and [83:04] entourage. [83:06] You have agency for yourself. [83:09] You you know my own version of Art of [83:12] War and you go for it. I say this all [83:15] the time. I never had a plan B. I don't [83:17] know about you. In my life it was it was [83:20] agency or or die. And I think now I'm [83:24] going to be a social media. I'm no this [83:27] is what I'm doing and I'm going for it. [83:29] And with all the troubles, as you know, [83:31] it's hard building a business. And [83:33] that's hopefully what people get out of [83:35] it. [83:35] >> Jeff Bezos has this great line where [83:36] he's like, "Plan B should be to make [83:38] plan A work." [83:39] >> Yeah, exactly. That's a good line. [83:41] >> Great. The book is awesome. Highly [83:42] recommend it. Everybody listening should [83:43] buy the hard cover, the audible. I'm [83:46] really glad you wrote the book. I'm glad [83:47] the freaking we got to hang out. I'm [83:48] glad we got to meet. This was awesome. [83:49] Thanks for taking the time. [83:50] >> Thanks everybody. [83:51] >> I hope you enjoyed this episode. Please [83:53] remember to subscribe wherever you're [83:54] listening and leave a review. And make [83:56] sure you listen to my other podcast, [83:58] Founders. For almost a decade, I've [84:00] obsessively read over 400 biographies of [84:02] history's greatest entrepreneurs, [84:03] searching for ideas that you can use in [84:05] your work. Most of the guests you hear [84:07] on this show first found me through [84:10] Founders.