家有五不放，放了家不旺！老祖宗的规矩，每一条都有科学依据，别不当回事！ #马未都 #观复嘟嘟 #圆桌派 #居家禁忌 #财运 #纪实

家有五不放，放了家不旺！老祖宗的规矩，每一条都有科学依据，别不当回事！ 马未都与窦文涛围绕中国人居空间与家具文化展开深入对谈。内容从朋友购置带29个卫生间的巨型豪宅引发的“气散”与心理压抑谈起，溯及明清硬木家具形制演变、床榻等级与地域传统建筑智慧。随后，对话转向20世纪中国城市居住空间的极端拥挤、筒子楼与公共澡堂记忆，并延伸讨论了香港劏房文化、现代青年在买房苦役与租房生活之间的博弈，强调居所的核心在于适度与内心安宁。 中国传统建筑以四柱构成的“间”为计算单位，故宫太和殿面阔11间、进深5间即为55间大殿，而汉长安城未央宫大朝正殿占地约7万平方米，规模达太和殿基座的7倍。 (17:33) 居所尺度直接影响心理安全感，传统哲学强调“气聚”，如乾隆皇帝偏好狭小紧凑的三希堂书房，住宅过大过空反而易造成“气散”与精神消耗。 (41:25) 中国城市住宅层高历经长期压缩，明代民居底层挑高曾达6米，至20世纪中后期公寓普遍降至2.5至2.8米，而现代舒适居住的基准线通常在3.0米以上。 (28:33) 联合国住房承受力基准线建议居住支出不超过收入的三分之一；年轻人若为攒首付极度压榨黄金时期的生活质量，不仅背离尊严更面临资产波动的双重风险。 (51:08)

节目围绕马未都、窦文涛、许子东、陈晓卿等人的对谈展开，探讨了中国传统居住空间与现代住房焦虑的演变，并延伸至食物所维系的人情人性，以及先锋餐饮与工业化预制菜之间的理性认知。嘉宾指出，不论是居所还是饮食，核心均应从盲目攀比与外界审视回归到个体真实的舒适、尊严与内在体验。 空间尺度流变与巨宅带来的心理困境 (0:02) 马未都指出，中国古典家居与空间营造具有严密的人文与阶级尺度。从明代万历年间确立的紫檀、黄花梨家具与中轴对称布局，到北方罗汉床、架子床与拔步床等单向进出设计的礼制秩序，再到依地而建的北京四合院、陕北窑洞与福建土楼，传统居所无不契合宗族伦理与地域气候。而秦汉阿房宫、未央宫等空前宏大的皇家营建，与明代民间高达6米的厅堂，至清代起因人口增长和木材短缺逐渐缩减垂直层高，最终演变为现代普遍2.5至2.8米的紧凑户型。 然而，现代人常陷入“房子越大越好”的误区。马未都举例其友人在美购买拥有29间卫生间的名宅，以及国内友人自建占地极广的庄园，居住者非但未获安宁，反而因穿行旷野般的空房、迷失物件而产生心理恐惧与荒凉感，最终不得不搬入小客房；正如乾隆皇帝的卧室亦极度克制。与此同时，香港笼屋、劏房及九龙城寨等极度压抑的极端生存状态，反衬出过度追求膨胀尺度的荒谬，揭示出住宅的核心在于安顿身心而非向外炫耀。 住房绑架青春与租赁生活的观念博弈 (51:08) 对谈切入一线城市年轻人的生存现状。部分青年为攒首付而数日仅靠一碗汤果腹，窦文涛与嘉宾认为这种过度剥夺已触及联合国界定的人格尊严底线。联合国提出住房支出（租金或房贷）以不超过总收入三分之一为健康标准，一旦超标将严重扭曲生活。对尚未育儿的年轻人而言，租房反倒能摆脱对产权瑕疵的苛求，换取在优质地段流动的自由与开阔体验；但对有幼童的家庭，频繁搬迁则可能对孩子造成缺乏安全感的心理创伤。 许子东进一步剖析了地域与阶层心理的差异。北方部分暴发户热衷于以高昂溢价展示资金实力的“老板逻辑”，而上海文化推崇的精明则是典型的“职业经理人逻辑”，即通过预算控制与性价比最大化成果。张爱玲早年虽向往上海公寓，晚年却拒绝重返故里，终身未在沪置业。嘉宾还以香港友人为例指出，与其将积蓄砸在逼仄的千尺豪宅，不如以同等资本选择环球邮轮或酒店栖居，折射出传统定居执念与现代游牧生活方式的博弈。 食物背后的匮乏记忆与市井温情叙事 (64:40) 陈晓卿结合《舌尖上的中国》收视数据分析，大众对温饱、主食与油脂红烧肉的底层渴望，折射出深厚的匮乏记忆。许子东援引张贤亮小说《绿化树》中饥饿与爱欲交织的描写，呼应了食物在人际情感纽带中的基石地位。席间讲述的父辈在1960年将大半个芝麻烧饼让给女同学的故事，同样展现出在饥饿年代以微薄食物传递的纯粹善意，成为代代相传的择偶家训。 食物亦是洞察不同群体生存面貌的窗口。一位前影视编剧因行业不再追求传统叙事而转行经营牛肉骨汤面馆，直言当下行业只索取即时的“情绪价值”；而在串串香餐馆中，串辣椒的底层工人就着富客残留在瓶底的茅台酒渣品头论足、劝诫同伴莫贪杯的场景，真实勾勒出市井生活的质感与尊严。下馆子就餐超越了口腹之欲，成为观察众生百态的现场。 先锋料理探索与工业预制菜的科学分歧 (78:59) 讨论转向餐饮的现代演变。以丹麦Noma为代表的顶级先锋餐饮，打破传统“用火加热”的熟食定义，采用干式熟成、康普茶菌膜发酵以及采集蚂蚁体内蚁酸代替传统醋等手法重塑风味。然而，此类餐厅面临高昂研发成本以及为追求极致口感而弃置大部分原料的环保悖论。现代推崇的生机饮食与轻食风潮，很大程度上亦可追溯至20世纪60年代嬉皮士运动与东方灵修的结合。 面对国内甚嚣尘上的预制菜争议，嘉宾主张理性厘清即食、即热与即烹的区别。火腿与咸鸭蛋本属古老预制形态，现代工业化预制菜的核心阻力在于缺乏食品添加剂透明度与公众信任。湘菜连锁品牌通过猛火现炒、测算后厨到餐桌距离等方式，成功将“锅气”进行商业化。与此同时，公众常对“手工温度”抱有不切实际的浪漫想象，忽视了土法压榨菜籽油中未去除的高芥酸风险以及家庭自制辅食难以达到的灭菌标准；高质量、无防腐剂的冷链预制菜成本极高，最终仍受制于消费市场的支付意愿。 全片通过居住与饮食两个维度，反思了物质丰裕时代下的社会焦虑：无论是盲目买大房还是对食物“手工温情”的执念，本质上都是传统匮乏记忆与现代消费主义交织的产物。如何在工业标准化的高效安全与传统烟火气的人性温存之间找到平衡，仍是留待现代社会持续探讨的课题。

[0:02] 买家（马未都的朋友）: 老马，你得给我找点中国柴木家具，便宜的那种。我得弄几个集装箱，因为房子太…… [0:02] 马未都: 你一天用一个厕所，一个月下来才轮完一遍，你买这么大房子干嘛？ [17:33] 马未都: 北京最大的四合院当然就是故宫……过去说故宫九千九百九十九间半，其实并不准确。古人算间跟我们今天算房间完全是两回事。 [32:27] 毛泽东: 春风杨柳万千条，六亿神州尽舜尧 [38:26] 马未都: 第一次在那儿上厕所要蹲着……我就怕弄裤子上。 [41:25] 这是人住的地儿吗？就是不舒服。 [47:43] 你猜这个多少钱？你以为十万？你瞧不起我一百万？ [49:41] 张爱玲: 世界上没去过的地方太多了，去过的地方我就不回去了。

[0:02] Having made a fortune in America, the [0:04] first thing he did was to buy a luxury [0:06] mansion—he bought one in the U.S. He [0:08] had a book listing the 100 most famous [0:10] mansions in America, and he bought one [0:12] that was among the very top in that [0:13] book. Actually, he didn't even spend [0:17] that much money to buy it. After buying [0:19] it, he told me, "Old Ma, you need to [0:21] find me some Chinese rustic furniture, [0:23] the cheap kind. I need to get a few [0:26] shipping containers full because the [0:27] house is too..." He ended up buying a [0:29] whole container of Chinese softwood [0:31] furniture, but when it arrived, he [0:33] couldn't even distribute a few pieces [0:34] throughout that house. He said that [0:38] just counting the bathrooms, there were [0:40] 29 of them. I said, "If you use one [0:43] bathroom a day, a month will have [0:45] passed by the time you're done. So, [0:47] what’s the point of buying such a [0:49] massive house?" His only pleasure was [0:52] hosting a cocktail party after buying [0:54] it to entertain everyone once. The rest [0:59] became a burden, and eventually, he [1:01] just had to find a way to sell the [1:02] place. Once the party was over, [1:06] everyone was saying that these two must [1:08] have water in their brains—they were [1:10] fools to buy this house. It’s true; [1:15] unless you are a large family living in [1:16] an old castle or a grand courtyard [1:18] house—not just a simple large [1:20] compound—If you aren’t a big family [1:22] , if you don't have a clan of dozens of [1:24] people, you really can’t live in a [1:25] place like that; it’s just too empty. [1:29] Your "qi" simply cannot gather, and if [1:31] it doesn't gather, it disperses. Once [1:34] it disperses, you lose your vitality. [1:36] Therefore, a residence is not [1:38] necessarily better the larger it is; [1:39] it’s best when it’s suitable. So, [1:42] what do we mean by "suitable"? [1:45] Everyone's psychological tolerance is [1:46] different, but the limit is that when [1:48] you are home alone, you shouldn't feel [1:50] uncomfortable. That is the boundary. So [1:53] , we’ve been talking for a while [1:55] about how the Chinese live. Living [1:57] involves the house on one hand, and on [1:59] the other, it involves our furniture. [2:02] I’ve already talked a lot about [2:03] furniture in previous episodes. People [2:05] are particularly interested in [2:07] classical furniture. For example, the [2:09] table in front of me is made of red [2:10] sandalwood, and the chair I'm sitting [2:12] on is yellow rosewood. Looking at this [2:14] environment, it’s all in that style. [2:16] For instance, this is a tea table setup [2:18] . This is a single-seat sofa for one [2:23] person, and these bookcases are very [2:25] simple, plain modern furniture, while [2:27] over here is a two-seater sofa. This is [2:33] the state of life for most of us, this [2:35] kind of Western style. In the past, you [2:40] could tell how wealthy or what [2:42] someone’s status was just by stepping [2:44] into their home; those who used zitan [2:46] and huanghuali furniture definitely had [2:48] high status. When did this begin? [2:54] Starting from the late Ming Dynasty, [2:56] around the Wanli period, zitan and [2:57] huanghuali furniture marked a great [2:59] leap in our craftsmanship. It [3:03] influenced the Qing Dynasty, especially [3:05] during the prosperous Kangxi and [3:07] Qianlong eras when many people were [3:09] wealthy; thus, for a long time, our [3:11] zitan and huanghuali furniture remained [3:13] the most precious in China. In the past [3:17] , China held a simple aesthetic view, [3:19] and this aesthetic principle is very [3:21] straightforward: it’s called symmetry [3:23] . I have said many times that symmetry [3:25] is the primary principle of Chinese [3:26] classical aesthetics; we build our [3:28] houses symmetrically, and the furniture [3:30] arrangements at home are also [3:31] symmetrical. Otherwise, we wouldn’t [3:33] have those large main halls with a long [3:34] table and two chairs with a table in [3:36] between. Whether it's tables or chairs, [3:38] everything is balanced and symmetrical [3:40] from left to right. In our bedrooms of [3:44] the past, specifically after the Ming [3:46] Dynasty, the quality of our sleep [3:47] improved significantly due to the [3:49] widespread use of alcove beds and [3:51] canopy beds. For instance, I used to [3:54] mistakenly believe these beds were [3:56] common in the south and rare in the [3:58] north, but in northern regions like [4:00] Shanxi, Shaanxi, Henan, and Shandong, [4:02] such beds were also common, and not [4:04] everyone just slept on kangs. Sleeping [4:06] on a kang is generally common in North [4:07] China and further north; in the [4:08] Northeast, you definitely sleep on a [4:10] kang because you couldn't endure the [4:11] winter otherwise, as the kang can be [4:13] heated. Many homes in the North use [4:19] kangs; in a sense, it is a cheaper way [4:21] to live in the winter because once you [4:23] heat the kang, the whole room warms up. [4:31] Then there is the luohan bed, which has [4:33] railings on three sides and a distinct [4:34] sense of direction. Chinese beds all [4:37] have a sense of direction, unlike [4:38] Western beds, which do not; they allow [4:40] for free access from either side. So, I [4:42] often joke with Westerners, saying that [4:44] your pursuit of gender equality [4:46] actually starts from the bed, because [4:47] you can get on and off from either side [4:49] . Whether it's a canopy bed, a tester [4:51] bed, or an arhat bed, Chinese beds are [4:54] accessed from only one side, which [4:55] establishes a hierarchy of precedence, [4:58] seniority, and social status. Beyond [5:00] the bedroom, a scholar in the past [5:02] would certainly need a study. The study [5:05] would be tailored to the individual, [5:07] featuring a writing desk or painting [5:09] table, shelves, cabinets, and a set of [5:11] chairs. Right? When we look at the [5:14] furniture of that period today, there [5:16] are many highly unique pieces that [5:17] weren't discussed much in the past. [5:19] What did we talk about most? "Sitting [5:21] furniture," which means chairs. There [5:23] are many types, and people have become [5:24] quite familiar with them over the years [5:25] , like the horseshoe-back armchair. [5:27] There are official's hat chairs, [5:29] southern official's hat chairs, rose [5:30] chairs, armchairs, and so on. Then [5:32] there are stools; anything without [5:34] armrests is generally called a stool. [5:35] Square ones are square stools, round [5:37] ones are round stools, and those that [5:39] seat two are called bench stools. It's [5:41] very clear. Next, there are "supporting [5:43] pieces." So-called "supporting pieces" [5:45] are those that can bear weight. For [5:46] example, this desk here is a small [5:48] sandalwood painting table; these are [5:50] supporting pieces, as are tables. Then [5:52] there is bedding, used for sleeping. As [5:54] we said, there are roughly four types [5:57] of places to lie down in China: canopy [5:59] beds, tester beds, arhat beds, and [6:01] daybeds, right? What remains are " [6:03] miscellaneous pieces." Miscellaneous [6:05] pieces are quite interesting. In our [6:07] daily lives today, we sometimes don't [6:09] pay much attention to them, but they [6:11] are actually very useful, such as lamp [6:13] stands. Everyone has lamps in their [6:15] homes today, whether it's a desk lamp, [6:17] a floor lamp, or a bedside lamp; you [6:19] have to have lights. In the past, [6:20] because you couldn't install lights on [6:22] the walls. Well, it wasn't impossible; [6:24] you could have a wall-mounted lamp [6:26] holder that you'd pull out to light a [6:27] candle. Today, everything is electric, [6:31] with wires buried in the walls, so we [6:33] have wall lamps, ceiling lights, and [6:35] hidden LED strips, making the lighting [6:37] at home very soft and complex. But in [6:39] the past, there was none of that; it [6:41] relied mostly on lamp stands. Take coat [6:43] racks, for example. Today, we have [6:45] hangers inside our closets to hang [6:47] clothes individually. In the past, [6:49] Chinese coat racks were free-standing, [6:51] placed in the bedroom to drape garments [6:53] over. They possessed a very strong [6:55] sense of visual decoration. As for [6:56] screens, needless to say, few people [6:58] use them in their homes today, [7:00] primarily because our rooms aren't [7:01] large enough. Moreover, as we mentioned [7:03] earlier, ancient homes were often vast, [7:05] open-plan spaces, and they relied on [7:07] screens for temporary partitions. Today [7:09] , our rooms are clearly defined, and [7:11] the average room in a typical household [7:13] doesn't exceed 50 square meters. So, [7:15] there’s no further need for these [7:17] screens. Then there are incense stands; [7:20] if you look at ancient paintings, [7:22] you'll often see them used when people [7:24] burned incense or worshiped, with a [7:26] dedicated stand for the Buddha. We [7:30] aren't that particular nowadays, so [7:32] these miscellaneous pieces of furniture [7:34] now appear mostly as display items or [7:35] educational pieces, which you can see [7:37] in museums. Right? If you visit a [7:41] museum today, you can see these things, [7:43] but we live in apartments now, and [7:45] ancient furniture is relatively large [7:47] —bigger than modern furniture—so [7:49] it's impossible to place them in such [7:51] small rooms. Plus, the layouts of our [7:54] homes today are all different, right? [7:57] There’s no longer an excessive [7:59] emphasis on symmetry either. So, what [8:02] happens when symmetry isn't required? [8:04] What do you do if your house is small? [8:07] In the 1980s, back when I got married, [8:09] there was a trend called "modular [8:11] furniture." It meant combining all your [8:14] furniture into a single wall unit, [8:16] which saved space and was practical. [8:18] Modular furniture meant having [8:20] compartments and doors; maybe a board [8:22] would flip down so a child could do [8:24] homework, here would be a drawer, there [8:26] a cabinet door, and on top, shelves to [8:28] display antiques, so they made these [8:30] modular units very complex. It saved [8:32] space by occupying only one wall. In [8:35] fact, this type of modular furniture [8:37] was a product of having very small [8:39] living areas. Later, as our housing [8:42] improved, modular furniture gradually [8:44] faded away and disappeared. Actually, [8:47] Chinese furniture developed quite early [8:50] on. We often say the Tang and Song [8:52] dynasties were a turning point; by the [8:54] Song dynasty, Chinese furniture had [8:56] basically taken shape. Take tables, for [8:59] example—why are they called "zhuozi"? [9:01] It’s because they are elevated. We [9:03] used to sit on the floor, and suddenly [9:05] these tables were made so high, so the [9:06] character for "table"(zhuo) was written [9:08] as the "zhuo" in "zhuoyue"(outstanding) [9:10] , standing tall and firm. Chairs are [9:11] simple; aren't chairs for leaning on? [9:13] They provide back support, so [9:14] eventually, both characters were given [9:16] the "wood" radical; and the "zhuo" in [9:18] table, doesn't it have a "cross" symbol [9:19] at the bottom? Change it to the [9:21] character for "wood" with a leaning [9:22] radical; change the radical for "person [9:23] " to the one for "wood." Because most [9:26] of our ancient furniture was made of [9:28] wood, you might say today that your [9:30] furniture is steel, aluminum, synthetic [9:32] , or plastic, but in ancient times, [9:34] there was only wood. So, tables and [9:38] chairs are all related to the character [9:40] for wood; we've talked about this a lot [9:42] , so I won't go into detail here. [9:45] Originally, Europeans sat with their [9:47] legs dangling—what we call " [9:49] dangling-leg sitting"—while in Asia, [9:51] we sat on mats, cross-legged on the [9:53] floor. If you think about it, 2,000 [10:00] years ago, Europe and Asia were clearly [10:02] divided, but today, only we in Asia [10:04] have completely said goodbye to [10:06] floor-sitting. The cultural traces left [10:14] behind are in our vocabulary, like [10:16] words for "seating,""banquet," or " [10:18] chairman," all rooted in those early [10:20] floor mats; so why did we change these [10:22] habits? It’s because Chinese people [10:28] are particularly good at learning; for [10:30] example, we have many sitting postures, [10:32] whether sitting on the floor or on [10:33] furniture. The first is the "Ji" [10:36] posture, which means kneeling— [10:37] kneeling down is considered the most [10:39] formal way to sit. Then there is the " [10:43] Fu" posture, which is sitting [10:44] cross-legged, and the "Ji" posture, [10:46] where you stretch both legs out in [10:48] front; that’s very comfortable but [10:50] quite unrefined. Actually, if you want [10:55] to learn more, you can watch my early [10:56] lectures on furniture from "Lecture [10:58] Room," which contains a vast amount of [11:00] content that we can’t cover in this [11:02] program. The true revolution in our [11:05] furniture only began when we entered [11:06] the Republican era. After entering the [11:08] Republican period, a Western style [11:10] emerged, leading to what we call fusion [11:12] furniture combining East and West. In [11:14] fact, during the 18th century, a strong [11:17] "Chinoiserie" trend swept through [11:19] Europe. This Chinese style emerged [11:24] around the 17th and 18th centuries, [11:25] when European East India companies were [11:27] buying massive amounts of goods from [11:29] China. At that time, our Chinese style [11:35] was effectively the fashion across all [11:37] of Europe. The "China" of that time, of [11:40] course, also encompassed the entire [11:42] East Asian region with China as its [11:44] center. Foreigners couldn't clearly [11:48] distinguish the subtle differences [11:50] between China, Japan, and Korea, which [11:52] we can easily tell apart. So, they took [11:57] these items and incorporated them with [11:58] their own inspiration. This created a [12:02] new style, which is basically what we [12:04] call "Chinoiserie." Regarding this [12:07] Chinoiserie style, if you have the [12:09] chance to visit Europe today and happen [12:11] to see a pavilion that looks a bit [12:12] peculiar, it is definitely Chinoiserie. [12:15] When you visit many palaces in Europe, [12:17] whenever you see something that [12:18] suddenly catches your eye and feels [12:20] familiar or welcoming, it is surely [12:22] influenced by Chinoiserie. It’s a [12:25] pity that today, regarding our [12:26] furniture—let's talk about furniture [12:28] first—we haven't seen newer, iconic [12:30] Chinese-style pieces. Today’s [12:32] furniture is either just a modification [12:34] of old pieces or new furniture with a [12:36] few classical cultural symbols added. I [12:40] truly hope that in the near future, we [12:42] will have a day where we Chinese can [12:44] design a kind of new Chinese-style [12:45] furniture that is both practical and [12:47] beautiful. And this kind of [12:49] Chinese-style furniture should be [12:50] instantly recognizable to people all [12:52] over the world as being designed by the [12:54] Chinese. When that day comes, we will [12:56] certainly spark another wave of [12:58] Chinoiserie in Europe. For most of us, [13:01] the improvement in our living [13:02] environment is something that has only [13:04] happened in the last 20 years. In the [13:06] last century, the living conditions for [13:08] ordinary people were generally quite [13:09] difficult. But now, whether it's big [13:12] cities like Beijing, Shanghai, [13:14] Guangzhou, and Shenzhen, or second or [13:16] third-tier cities, or even small [13:18] counties, high-rises stand everywhere. [13:21] Wherever I go now, I see the same [13:23] groups of high-rise buildings. I think [13:26] everyone has experienced the pros and [13:28] cons of living in apartment buildings, [13:30] but new housing has certainly improved [13:32] infrastructure, making our lives more [13:34] convenient. However, the cultural value [13:38] of traditional housing is where our [13:40] emotions lie. So today, let's talk [13:43] about what our traditional houses were [13:45] like. We must go from the distant past [13:48] to the primitive society; needless to [13:50] say, the ancients just found caves to [13:52] live in, otherwise why would they be [13:54] called "Peking Man"(literally, Upper [13:56] Cave Man)? So, skipping the primitive [13:59] society, we directly trace back to two [14:01] of our cultures, which is the [14:03] stilt-style architecture. Stilt [14:06] architecture was an important [14:08] architectural form in the Neolithic Age [14:10] south of the Yangtze River. [14:12] Archaeological discoveries of the [14:13] earliest stilt-style buildings are the [14:15] Hemudu stilt-style structures. These [14:17] buildings mainly used bamboo and wood [14:19] as construction materials and were [14:20] generally two-story structures; the [14:22] lower level was for raising animals and [14:24] storing sundries. The upper level was [14:26] for living. This design, which is [14:28] raised off the ground, was first [14:30] considered for safety. Safety in the [14:33] south means protection against insects. [14:36] Protection against wild beasts. And [14:40] there is also protection against [14:42] dampness. This type of stilt-style [14:44] architectural form has actually [14:45] continued to this day. Depending on the [14:48] environment of each region, the variety [14:50] of our housing is quite rich. Take our [14:53] Loess Plateau, for example; those who [14:55] have been to northern Shaanxi know that [14:57] people live in cave dwellings. What is [14:59] the benefit of this? It doesn't consume [15:02] resources; there is no need for steel [15:04] or cement. It is very green and [15:07] environmentally friendly. This form of [15:09] cave dwelling has actually been [15:10] preserved to this day. If we look at [15:12] the northern Shaanxi Plateau, the Loess [15:14] Plateau, and the surrounding areas, [15:16] people are still living in them today. [15:18] As an ancient form of architecture, it [15:20] actually sometimes attracts tourists to [15:22] come and see. Our early cave dwellings [15:26] were rounded at the top, like those in [15:28] Yan'an, our revolutionary holy site. [15:32] There were many such caves that I [15:34] visited back then. Besides that, there [15:39] are also portable structures, like [15:41] tents. Most of our tents today are for [15:45] family use, where a family of three [15:47] buys a simple tent to set up during an [15:49] outing, but they aren't for living in. [15:53] So what kind of tents are for living in [15:54] ? The most typical example is the yurt [15:57] found on the Mongolian grasslands. It's [16:01] called a yurt, but it's essentially a [16:03] large tent used by the Mongol people. [16:06] The Mongol people live where there is [16:08] water and grass, migrating every year. [16:11] Therefore, their homes cannot be fixed [16:13] in one place, so they must use these [16:15] portable structures that can be taken [16:17] down and rebuilt. The deepest [16:21] impression the yurt left on me is the [16:23] visual experience; once you enter, it's [16:25] circular. Most of our homes are square, [16:30] so this circular building has no [16:32] partitions, and everything happens here [16:34] —like sleeping, hosting guests, and [16:36] eating. So the whole family is in one [16:42] big room; this feeling is quite a [16:44] magical experience. I had this feeling [16:48] when I first went to Inner Mongolia in [16:50] my twenties. Then there is our [16:54] Northeast region. I went to the [16:59] Northeast at the beginning of 1969, and [17:01] when I saw the houses built from logs, [17:03] it was quite impactful. Those logs were [17:08] so thick. The logs used to build the [17:11] houses were about this thick, over 20 [17:13] centimeters or even 30 centimeters in [17:15] diameter, all stacked up one by one. [17:17] They used loess to fill the gaps. [17:19] Looking back now, building a house like [17:21] that today would be too extravagant, as [17:23] it was made entirely of wood. But back [17:26] then, the Northeast relied on these [17:28] large logs to build, creating houses [17:30] with a very fairy-tale quality. Now, [17:33] let's take a look at our North China [17:34] region. Because China is vast and [17:36] expansive, with such a large territory, [17:38] the styles vary accordingly. In North [17:40] China, houses are primarily brick. If [17:42] we look at the region—Henan, Hebei, [17:44] Shandong, and Shanxi—these places all [17:46] feature brick construction. The house [17:48] designs differ. For example, houses in [17:51] Shanxi are almost all enclosed [17:53] courtyards with inward-sloping roofs, a [17:55] design known as "keeping the wealth [17:57] within the family." These courtyards [18:00] were originally intended for single [18:01] families and were relatively spacious. [18:03] Later, due to population growth and a [18:05] lack of new construction over the years [18:07] , many people were squeezed into one [18:09] courtyard, turning them into "big messy [18:11] courtyards." That’s how the name "big [18:13] messy courtyard" came about. The [18:15] wealthy, however, lived in [18:16] multi-layered siheyuan (courtyard [18:18] houses) with side wings, like those in [18:20] Beijing. In the past, you could tell a [18:21] lot about a Beijing residence just by [18:23] looking at its gate. One look at a " [18:25] Guangliang" grand gate, and you know. [18:27] It means the family owns many rooms. [18:29] Just think, if your gate alone takes up [18:31] the space of three rooms, you surely [18:33] have a lot of property. For those with [18:35] simple, modest gates where you just [18:37] push the door to enter, your house is [18:38] likely smaller. As for Beijing's grand [18:41] siheyuan...They were built to a higher [18:43] standard, usually with three or even [18:45] five layers of courtyards, plus side [18:47] wings. What is a side wing? It’s an [18:51] auxiliary courtyard situated outside [18:53] the main central axis, often used as a [18:55] garden or for guest accommodations. [18:59] Needless to say, the largest courtyard [19:01] in Beijing is the Forbidden City. It [19:04] has countless rooms; despite being [19:06] counted many times, the old claim of [19:09] 9,999.5 rooms is actually not accurate. [19:12] The way the ancients counted rooms is [19:14] different from how we do it today. [19:17] Nowadays, we count one room as one unit [19:19] regardless of size, but they counted [19:21] based on the roof beams and columns; [19:23] one span between pillars counted as one [19:26] room. For example, the Hall of Supreme [19:29] Harmony is 11 bays wide and 5 bays deep [19:32] , which is equivalent to 55 rooms, a [19:34] truly massive scale. If we head further [19:37] into the Jiangnan region, you’ll [19:38] notice that everything is connected to [19:40] water. In areas slightly further from [19:43] the water, most of the houses are built [19:45] primarily with wood and supplemented [19:47] with brick. Houses built right by the [19:50] water generally avoid using brick; why [19:52] is that? Because brick is too absorbent [19:54] . If you look closely, especially at [19:58] the architecture along the rivers in [20:00] the Suzhou area, the foundations and [20:01] such are all made of stone, including [20:03] the floors. Bricks can’t handle it; [20:07] because they absorb water year-round, [20:09] the house would become far too damp. [20:11] Therefore, building a house must always [20:13] be adapted to local conditions. For [20:15] example, in recent years, we’ve seen [20:17] through videos that there is a type of [20:19] architecture in Fujian called the Tulou [20:20] , or "earth building." Most of these [20:22] Tulou are circular, though some are [20:24] square. These earth buildings were [20:27] constructed when northerners migrated [20:28] south. They were designed in this [20:32] enclosed style to defend against [20:33] excessive conflict with the locals and [20:35] to protect against bandits. This [20:38] enclosed architectural style is [20:39] particularly well-suited for communal [20:41] living, which gives it a very strong [20:43] sense of cultural atmosphere and human [20:45] connection. In fact, the structure of [20:48] the Tulou is quite unique; it uses [20:50] stone for the foundation, raw earth as [20:52] the main material, and bamboo or wood [20:54] as the structural reinforcement. You [20:58] know, if you mix plant fibers like [21:00] straw into this mud, it becomes much [21:02] more durable and stronger. So, these [21:05] earth buildings combine features like [21:07] ventilation, lighting, earthquake [21:09] resistance, sound insulation, heat [21:11] preservation, and defense all in one. [21:14] The formation of these Tulou was not [21:16] accidental; it was influenced by the [21:18] local environment and the Hakka people [21:20] —the name itself implies "guest [21:21] people"—who designed them to band [21:23] together and guard against outside [21:25] intrusions. We’ve been talking about [21:29] residential houses for a while now, [21:30] which we can still see today. Most of [21:33] the old houses found across the country [21:35] date back to the Ming and Qing [21:36] dynasties. Occasionally, you can find [21:39] Yuan dynasty dwellings in places like [21:41] Shanxi, though from the data I've seen, [21:44] Yuan dynasty houses were relatively [21:45] small. But as for palaces, the one we [21:49] see is the Forbidden City. It was the [21:54] grand palace of both the Ming and Qing [21:56] dynasties; it served as the Emperor’s [21:57] residence and his place of work. So, [22:02] when did we first begin to develop this [22:04] concept of a palace? Let's skip the [22:07] distant past and start with the Qin [22:09] Dynasty. During the Qin and Han periods [22:12] , the Qin already had massive palace [22:14] complexes, like the Efang Palace. How [22:17] long was its main hall? It was 1,320 [22:19] meters long from east to west and 420 [22:22] meters wide. The area it covered was [22:24] approximately 540,000 square meters. [22:27] Its base, made of rammed earth, stands [22:29] 12 meters high today. That height is [22:32] equivalent to a four-story building, [22:33] considering standard residential floors [22:35] are about three meters each. It is [22:39] recognized as the site of the largest [22:40] palace in the world. However, because [22:44] the main hall was so vast, it wasn't [22:46] finished before the Qin Dynasty fell, [22:48] making it perhaps the world's earliest [22:50] and most famous "unfinished project." [22:53] By the Han Dynasty, the palaces were [22:55] naturally inspired by the Qin; they [22:57] were grand, though perhaps not quite as [23:00] massive, still retaining that sense of [23:02] magnificence. The Weiyang Palace [23:04] covered about 5 square kilometers. [23:06] While its total area wasn't the largest [23:08] , its structural remains are relatively [23:10] complete since it wasn't left [23:11] unfinished. Its main hall was about 350 [23:14] meters long from east to west and 200 [23:16] meters from north to south. Calculating [23:18] that out, it covers an area of about [23:20] 70,000 square meters. It can be said [23:22] that it is the world's largest [23:23] completed palace that we have [23:25] historical records for. What about the [23:26] Forbidden City? And the Hall of Supreme [23:28] Harmony? We haven't found any extremely [23:30] precise data yet. However, looking at [23:32] the foundation, I estimate it to be [23:34] about 10,000 square meters, which [23:36] theoretically means the Han palace was [23:38] seven times larger. Entering the Tang [23:42] Dynasty, Chang'an had a relatively [23:44] well-developed architectural layout, [23:45] with residential and commercial areas [23:47] separated. I feel the ancients had a [23:52] different design philosophy than [23:53] today's, as Chinese people have [23:55] historically viewed commerce in a [23:56] different light. Therefore, their [24:00] planning strictly separated residential [24:02] and commercial zones. Where people [24:04] lived was for living, and commercial [24:05] areas were for business. Thus, they had [24:08] the East Market and West Market. It is [24:11] said that our phrase for "buying things [24:13] "(mai dongxi) comes from this. You can [24:15] actually see it in the Ballad of Mulan: [24:17] "In the East Market she bought a fine [24:18] horse, in the West Market a saddle, in [24:20] the South Market a bridle, and in the [24:21] North Market a long whip." From a [24:23] literary perspective, this is a [24:24] rhetorical device called " [24:26] cross-reference." It doesn’t mean I [24:28] actually have to travel to four [24:30] different places to buy all these [24:31] things; it just means that commercial [24:33] markets were established in all four [24:35] directions. Viewed from this angle, at [24:39] least from the Northern and Southern [24:40] Dynasties through the Sui and Tang [24:42] periods, our commercial areas and [24:44] residential areas were separated. [24:47] However, there is one point: our early [24:49] architecture, compared to today's [24:50] standards, doesn't have very good [24:52] natural lighting. Why is that? It is [24:54] quite simple: they didn't have glass, [24:56] so the lighting wasn't very good. As [24:57] for the Tang Dynasty buildings still [24:59] existing today, there are only a few [25:00] left in the whole country. Originally [25:02] it was said there were four; whether [25:03] any more have been discovered in the [25:05] last two years, I am not entirely sure. [25:07] For example, the Foguang Temple and [25:08] Nanchan Temple in Shanxi are famous [25:10] Tang buildings, both of which were [25:12] discovered by Mr. Liang Sicheng during [25:14] his field trips to Shanxi back then. If [25:16] you look closely, the windows are very [25:18] small and the walls are thick, so the [25:20] lighting is definitely poor. After the [25:22] Song Dynasty, Chinese architecture’s [25:24] lighting improved significantly because [25:26] of the "Yingzao Fashi." What is the " [25:28] Yingzao Fashi"? It means that when you [25:30] build a house, there is a standard [25:32] manual you must follow to construct it. [25:34] This "Yingzao Fashi" indeed had a [25:36] massive impact on our building [25:37] practices throughout the period [25:39] following the Song Dynasty. It was [25:41] during the Northern Song period that we [25:43] began to see the invention of lattice [25:45] doors and lattice windows. These [25:47] effectively brought the external space [25:49] into the interior of the building, [25:51] expanding the visual effect and [25:52] enhancing the sensory experience. What [25:54] does it mean to bring in the external [25:56] space? It means if you open these [25:58] lattice doors fully, during the [26:00] pleasant air of spring and autumn, the [26:01] interior and exterior form a single [26:03] scene. The outside space becomes part [26:07] of the inside space, so through these [26:09] lattice doors, you can enjoy the [26:10] outdoors, including better ventilation [26:12] and natural light. The experience back [26:16] then was wonderful, but it didn't work [26:18] in winter because of the severe cold, [26:19] nor in summer when opening them would [26:21] let in too much heat. Therefore, for at [26:25] least half the year, the internal space [26:27] and the external space are integrated [26:29] as one; there is no clear boundary [26:31] between them. These types of lattice [26:35] doors actually allow you to open up the [26:36] entire southern side of the building. [26:39] If you have the chance to stroll [26:41] through the gardens of Suzhou, pay [26:42] attention to this, and you will [26:44] understand the essence of this [26:45] architecture. As for our Ming Dynasty [26:49] architecture, in terms of volume, it [26:51] was actually still influenced by [26:52] Tang-style architecture; it is [26:54] relatively tall, even when it comes to [26:56] ordinary residential houses. For [26:59] example, in my early years, I went to [27:01] Suzhou to see those old houses, but [27:03] many have been torn down now; it's such [27:05] a pity, they're all gone. Those old [27:06] houses had ceilings six meters high [27:08] when you walked in, which is like the [27:10] height of two floors, but it was just [27:12] one single space, so it felt grand and [27:14] spacious. You don't even need to ask [27:16] about those buildings; they were mostly [27:18] from the Ming Dynasty, or perhaps early [27:20] Qing Dynasty. As time went on, [27:22] buildings in the Qing Dynasty started [27:24] to become shorter. Why were they [27:26] shorter? It saved materials. After the [27:29] population grew in the Qing Dynasty, in [27:31] terms of area and per capita space, it [27:33] was definitely shrinking. So, when they [27:37] built houses, it led to them being [27:39] built lower and lower, sometimes even [27:40] adding an extra floor within the [27:42] original space. Once an extra floor was [27:46] added, the ceiling height of that level [27:48] didn't feel as high anymore. We hope [27:51] for higher ceilings in our homes today [27:53] too. I remember houses built in the [27:57] latter part of the last century were [27:59] often quite low; ceiling heights were [28:01] generally kept at 2.5 to 2.8 meters, [28:03] which was considered high. I have even [28:07] been in rooms that were 2.2 meters tall [28:09] . How high is 2.2 meters? It’s like [28:11] me reaching out and being able to touch [28:13] the ceiling, which is very [28:14] uncomfortable. Staying in a room like [28:15] that for a long time feels very [28:17] oppressive. Today, I think a [28:19] comfortable living space should be at [28:21] least 3 meters high; 3.5 meters is very [28:23] comfortable, 3.2 is also quite nice, 3 [28:26] meters is acceptable, but anything [28:28] below 3 meters feels relatively [28:30] oppressive. Now, as we look at houses [28:33] in the modern era, residential [28:35] architecture underwent huge changes, [28:37] primarily after the Republic of China [28:39] period. First, Western architectural [28:43] ideas were introduced, along with [28:45] materials like cement and steel [28:47] reinforcement. Once Western [28:49] architectural ideas were introduced, " [28:51] little Western-style buildings" started [28:53] to appear, as everything at the time [28:55] was influenced by Westerners. In the [28:58] past, people placed great importance on [29:00] the appearance of their houses; they [29:02] had to look good from the outside, [29:04] which led to the emergence of these " [29:05] Western-style villas." Some were built [29:09] by foreigners, while others were built [29:11] by Chinese people themselves. You can [29:14] find them in both the North and the [29:16] South—in Beijing, Tianjin, and [29:18] Shanghai. Each place has its own unique [29:21] style. Some of the best-preserved [29:25] examples in Beijing with a distinct [29:27] Republican-era flavor include the Duan [29:29] Qirui Government site near Dongsi and [29:30] Dongsizhitiao, the former site of the [29:32] Beijing Women's Normal College, as well [29:34] as the residences of Sun Yat-sen and [29:36] the former site of Furen University. [29:40] These are all worth seeing. Back in the [29:44] early 80s, when I was transferred to [29:45] the China Youth Publishing House, it [29:47] was located in an old prince’s [29:49] mansion. On its east and west sides, [29:52] there were these Republican-era [29:54] Western-style villas, which was quite [29:56] interesting. Upon entering the [29:59] publishing house, you’d see [30:01] three-story Republican villas alongside [30:03] the grand Qing Dynasty mansion. It’s [30:06] such a pity—later on, because the [30:08] unit was short on office space and the [30:10] usage rate of those buildings was low [30:11] ...They first tore down the [30:13] Western-style villas, and then they [30:14] demolished the grand mansion. Back then [30:16] , cultural relic protection wasn't as [30:18] well-managed as it is today; if it were [30:20] now, they absolutely wouldn't be [30:21] allowed to tear them down. If you ever [30:23] get the chance to visit Tianjin, you [30:25] can see all sorts of Western-style [30:26] villas along the Wudadao area. Those [30:28] buildings are all standalone structures [30:30] , and remarkably, they have all been [30:32] preserved to this day. As for Shanghai, [30:34] there are even more there. Shanghai, I [30:37] find, is particularly fascinating. [30:41] Shanghai itself has always had an [30:43] affinity for these Western-style [30:45] buildings; in fact, there are many [30:47] massive ones there. For example, there [30:50] is one that is very well-preserved [30:51] called the Moller Villa. Its main [30:53] building is a three-story [30:55] Scandinavian-style structure with a [30:57] Norwegian flair. Doesn't that sound [30:58] interesting? Honestly, I’m not an [31:00] expert, but it looks just like a castle [31:02] out of a fairy tale. It was built for a [31:05] British-Jewish tycoon named Moller, [31:07] which is why it’s called the Moller [31:09] Villa. He built it for his daughter. [31:13] One morning, his daughter woke up and [31:15] told her father, "I dreamed of a [31:16] wonderful place." Her father then said, [31:19] "Well, why don't you draw it for me?" [31:22] And so, his daughter drew the house she [31:23] had seen in her dream. I think she must [31:25] have been a painting prodigy; otherwise [31:27] , she wouldn't have been able to draw [31:28] it. I’ve had plenty of dreams, but if [31:30] you asked me to draw them, I definitely [31:31] couldn't do it. The girl drew the [31:33] castle from her dreams. Once finished, [31:36] it served as the very first blueprint. [31:39] Her father, deeply devoted to his [31:41] daughter, spent ten years building the [31:43] Moller Villa. Today, the Moller Villa [31:46] is a restaurant and hotel. If you visit [31:49] Shanghai, you must see it; even if you [31:51] don't stay, have a meal there. With its [31:54] front lawn and garden, the experience [31:56] is truly breathtaking. Unfortunately, [32:00] Moller never spent a single day in the [32:02] finished house before being expelled [32:04] from China. This cultural heritage [32:08] stands as architecture from a specific [32:10] period—the Republican era. Looking [32:17] back at such buildings today, they [32:18] carry a distinct cultural hue, one that [32:20] is inseparable from the social [32:22] environment of that time. Our [32:27] architecture underwent another major [32:28] shift after the founding of New China. [32:32] With the war years behind us and the [32:34] country at peace, the population grew [32:36] exceptionally fast. This rapid [32:39] population growth created a problem: [32:40] the rate of housing construction [32:42] couldn't keep up with the rate of [32:43] population growth. How many people did [32:45] we have when the country was just [32:47] liberated? There were 450 million [32:49] compatriots—that is, 450 million [32:51] people. Not many years later, in 1958, [32:53] Chairman Mao wrote a poem titled " [32:55] Farewell to the God of Plague." It [32:58] includes the line: "Spring winds willow [33:00] branches ten thousand strong, six [33:02] hundred million in this sacred land all [33:04] become noble." Think about it: between [33:06] 1949 and 1958, a mere ten years, the [33:08] population increased by nearly 200 [33:10] million! By the 1970s, we had reached [33:13] 900 million to a billion people; the [33:15] population had doubled. Because the [33:18] population grew so fast and New China's [33:20] early construction focused mainly on [33:22] production, investment in residential [33:23] housing was insufficient. Consequently, [33:28] by the 1980s, with over a billion [33:30] people, the total residential area [33:32] hadn't expanded much alongside the [33:34] population, making things seem [33:36] especially cramped. Fine courtyard [33:40] houses, once meant for one family, [33:42] became home to several, or even dozens [33:44] of families. Just imagine, could such a [33:47] courtyard remain in good condition? So, [33:49] there were chaotic additions and many [33:51] small rooms were built. Shanghai had a [33:53] similar situation; their lanes, or* [33:54] lilong*, were just like the*hutongs*. [33:56] Their attics were converted into tiny [33:58] rooms called "pigeon cages." What does [34:00] "pigeon cage" mean? You couldn't even [34:02] stand up straight inside. Years ago, [34:03] when I went to Shanghai to buy antiques [34:05] , I visited someone's home. I remember [34:08] finding a fine sandalwood chair in an [34:10] attic; once I climbed up there, I [34:12] couldn't even straighten my back, I [34:14] kept hitting my head. The fact that [34:17] such national-treasure-level furniture [34:19] was kept up there just shows how [34:20] cramped their living conditions were [34:22] back then. It was so tight that a whole [34:26] family didn't even have the area of a [34:28] single bed per person—less than two [34:29] square meters each. Aside from sleeping [34:33] , you had to do everything else outside [34:35] ; that's why you often saw people [34:36] cooking in the hallways. Having a [34:39] shared kitchen was already considered [34:41] very good; many people just cooked [34:43] right on the roadside, eating at home [34:45] but prepping food on the street, [34:46] carrying their stoves out there. Back [34:49] then, the public facilities were [34:51] certainly better, like having public [34:52] restrooms. Our public restrooms now are [34:57] certainly better and less crowded, but [34:59] there were also public bathhouses; most [35:00] people went to these public bathhouses [35:02] to bathe. Even today, despite all the [35:09] houses built across the country—I [35:11] don't have the exact statistics—there [35:13] are still people living in very small [35:15] spaces. Just early last year, there was [35:20] news about six people in Shanghai [35:21] squeezed into an eight-square-meter [35:23] apartment. I found that terrifying; it [35:26] couldn't be demolished or sold, because [35:28] no matter how much you sold it for, [35:30] they couldn't afford a new place to [35:31] live. So, if you ask many of them, " [35:34] When did you start living here?" They [35:38] say, "I've lived here for nearly half a [35:40] century." However, overall, our speed [35:44] of housing construction has been very [35:46] fast, and our individual living space [35:48] has improved and increased [35:50] significantly, which is why one public [35:52] facility has almost disappeared: the [35:54] public bathhouse. Every unit used to [35:58] have one, especially the larger ones. [36:01] When I was a child in the military, [36:02] their bathhouse facilities were [36:04] well-maintained. Later, in civilian [36:06] life and at factories, there were [36:08] always bathhouses. Sometimes bath [36:10] tickets were issued, sometimes bought [36:12] for five or ten cents, and you could go [36:14] take a bath whenever you wanted. Back [36:16] then, public bathhouses often had [36:18] separate days; odd days for men and [36:20] even days for women, though some larger [36:22] facilities had separate areas for men [36:24] and women all the time. When I was [36:30] young, I’d often see young women [36:32] leaving the bathhouse in the army [36:33] compound, not at work, holding a basin [36:35] with the "old trio" of essentials. What [36:42] were they? Definitely a bar of soap, a [36:45] towel, and a pair of slippers. That [36:48] sight of them walking out, you just [36:50] don't see that anymore today. I [36:54] remember the first army bathhouse we [36:55] had used wooden boards for the floor, [36:57] about three centimeters thick. We had [37:01] wooden sandals, just a piece of wood [37:03] with a strap attached. They were [37:06] incredibly clunky to walk in, making a [37:08] clattering noise, and it was many years [37:10] before the plastic slippers we use now [37:12] became common. Beijing's public [37:20] bathhouses...Since I was always [37:21] affiliated with a work unit—first my [37:23] parents ', then my own—I rarely went [37:25] to public bathhouses on the street. [37:29] Been there? Never? I have, went with [37:31] some friends once. I remember clearly [37:33] that a bath cost 26 cents, 26 cents for [37:35] a ticket. If you wanted a scrub, [37:37] you’d add 15 cents for that service. [37:40] Nowadays, we don't call them bathhouses [37:42] anymore; we call them "bathing centers. [37:44] " These bathing centers have beautiful [37:47] large pools, some with water jets, and [37:49] even lion statues or other decorations. [37:51] The water is crystal clear. Our [37:54] childhood bathhouses weren't like that; [37:56] the water was always murky. How murky? [37:59] As murky as you can possibly imagine. [38:01] It was like a pot of soup; if you put [38:03] your hand ten centimeters under the [38:05] water, you couldn't see it anymore. The [38:07] water was incredibly dirty and never [38:09] changed, just kept heated with steam, [38:11] and the sight of everyone soaking in [38:12] that filthy water was quite something. [38:16] Once you got in, your body disappeared, [38:18] leaving only your head visible. After [38:21] soaking until soft, people would scrub [38:23] each other's backs; very few paid for a [38:25] professional scrub before rinsing off [38:26] and leaving. Today, our living [38:31] environment has improved significantly, [38:34] mainly in two areas regarding hygiene. [38:39] One is bathing, and the second is using [38:41] the restroom; both can now be taken [38:42] care of right at home. New houses today [38:46] definitely all have these facilities. [38:50] In the past, very few people had them, [38:52] especially seated toilets. You know [38:55] about seated toilets? I had one when I [38:59] was a kid, so I grew up accustomed to [39:01] sitting, not squatting. Can you squat? [39:05] I can squat. Back then, I’d squat [39:07] long enough to finish reading an entire [39:09] newspaper, including all four pages. I [39:11] practiced that later on, when I went to [39:13] the countryside. There were no seated [39:16] toilets in the countryside. The first [39:20] time I had to squat to use the restroom [39:22] there, I felt...I just worried I’d [39:24] get it all over my pants. Thinking back [39:28] , everyone had some good environmental [39:29] training when they were young. What [39:32] does that mean? It means being in an [39:35] environment different from what you're [39:36] used to—that’s the training. Public [39:39] restrooms have only really improved in [39:41] the last 20 years. Today, they're clean [39:44] , and some even smell pleasant. [39:46] Everyone has their own stall. When you [39:48] go in to use the restroom—I'm talking [39:49] about the men’s room, I don't know [39:51] about the women's—it's better when [39:53] urinating. When you need to defecate, [39:55] you have individual stalls. Back in the [39:57] day, those simply didn't exist. There [39:59] was zero privacy. In the big public [40:01] restrooms in Beijing, you’d walk in [40:03] during the morning and see dozens of [40:05] people all squatting in a row. There [40:07] wasn't a single stall, and there was a [40:09] line outside. These public toilets were [40:11] just a big concrete trough with pits, [40:13] square pits, on top. Right. Just think [40:16] about it today—people, especially [40:18] young people, wouldn't be able to use [40:20] those toilets at all. They just [40:23] couldn't accept it culturally. When I [40:25] spent those years in the Northeast, the [40:26] toilets I saw there were even more [40:28] terrifying; they were built out of wood [40:30] . There was a huge pit underneath, and [40:32] it was all open—well, not from the [40:34] top, but it was open at the bottom. You [40:37] could see exactly what the person [40:38] across from you was doing. So looking [40:43] back, people of our generation, in a [40:45] sense, had absolutely no privacy when [40:47] it came to these matters. Thinking [40:52] about it now, our lives have truly [40:54] improved. Not only is our average [40:57] living space much larger than when we [40:59] were kids, but at the very least, [41:00] things like bathing and personal care [41:02] can be done at home. That’s what [41:06] makes a home feel complete. After all, [41:09] we spend at least half of our lives at [41:11] home. So, the living experience will [41:14] only continue to improve. Within your [41:17] own means, that is, within the range of [41:19] what you can afford, focus on [41:20] satisfying yourself. Pleasing yourself [41:23] —at home, the main goal is to please [41:25] yourself. Over these years, our [41:27] concepts of housing have undergone [41:29] significant changes. In the past, homes [41:32] were too small, so people naturally [41:34] assumed that the bigger the house, the [41:36] better. But how big is big enough? [41:39] I’ve realized that a house really [41:41] isn't always the better the bigger it [41:43] is. I have a friend who built a house [41:45] and invited everyone over. Even when [41:48] dozens of people were there, the rooms [41:50] still felt vast and empty. I told him, [41:52] "Your house is too empty, it’s just [41:54] so huge.""Can you really be comfortable [41:56] living in a place like this?" He said, [41:58] "Well, it’s already built, so I have [41:59] to live in it whether I like it or not. [42:01] " When I visited again a few years [42:03] later, I discovered they weren't living [42:04] in the main house anymore, but in the [42:06] smaller guest house. I asked, "Why [42:07] aren't you living over there?" He said [42:09] it was too inconvenient in so many ways [42:11] ; the main house was just too big. When [42:13] there’s no one around, when it’s [42:14] just one or two people at home, the [42:16] house actually makes you feel afraid. I [42:17] asked, "How is it inconvenient?" He [42:19] said, "You have no idea. Once, I lost [42:21] my phone and couldn't find it all day. [42:23] I had to walk so far just to get to the [42:25] restroom. The further I walked, the [42:27] more terrifying it felt. Sometimes, [42:29] things happen in the house—unexpected [42:32] things—that are quite frightening." [42:35] If you haven't had the experience of [42:37] living in such a place, you don't know [42:38] the horror of living in a house that [42:40] big, nor the feeling of...It's an [42:42] indescribable sadness; it doesn't feel [42:44] like a home. Another friend of mine [42:47] also has a large mansion, and he [42:49] brought his 90-year-old mother to live [42:50] there with a whole staff to wait on her [42:52] . His mother grew up in the hutongs of [42:56] southern Beijing. Those hutongs were [42:59] crowded, and that’s where she was [43:01] raised. She had formed close [43:04] relationships with all the neighbors; [43:05] she would greet and chat with everyone [43:07] she saw. She said, although this big [43:10] house is grand and she has plenty of [43:11] people serving her, she has no one to [43:13] talk to. The happiest part of her day [43:16] is in the afternoon, when she circles [43:17] the fish pond, taking bits of a steamed [43:19] bun to feed the fish. How big is that [43:23] house, exactly? It's big to the point [43:25] of being intimidating. All the [43:26] furniture, which used to be placed [43:28] against the walls, has now been moved [43:29] to the center of the rooms. It makes [43:31] the house feel a bit tighter. Then, [43:35] while he wasn't around, the old lady [43:36] whispered to me, "Is this even a place [43:38] for people to live? It’s just [43:41] uncomfortable." Later on, his own [43:43] master bedroom was super huge. I always [43:45] say we all hope for a bigger bedroom [43:47] for comfort, but let me tell you, a [43:49] huge bedroom is the most uncomfortable [43:51] thing. If your ceiling is a bit high, [43:52] and your bedroom is over 100 or 200 [43:54] square meters, when you open your eyes [43:56] at night, you feel like you're guarding [43:58] a warehouse, you know? It’s very [44:00] uncomfortable. Look, even Emperor [44:03] Qianlong’s retreat—his study, the [44:05] Sanxi Tang—was extremely small. [44:09] I’ve seen his study, his bedroom, and [44:11] his sleeping quarters. That room, the [44:13] door frame was so low I almost hit my [44:15] head. I wondered, why is the place [44:17] where the Emperor lived so small? He [44:19] didn’t want to live in a big place [44:20] because it feels empty, makes you feel [44:22] hollow inside, and you can't sleep [44:24] soundly. Fortunately, the Chinese have [44:25] canopy beds and carved beds; the canopy [44:27] bed can be enclosed with curtains to [44:29] create a small psychological space. If [44:31] it’s completely wide open, you [44:33] don’t need a big room; even 100 [44:35] square meters is enough to overwhelm [44:37] you. If you have a 200-square-meter [44:40] bedroom with high ceilings, you really [44:42] can’t open your eyes at night. Open [44:44] them. The United Nations has even [44:49] condemned it, regarding these [44:50] worst-ever living conditions in Hong [44:52] Kong. [44:52] 200,000 people are living in these [44:55] subdivided units. It’s a violation; [44:57] it hurts human dignity. Can you see [45:00] that this is a Hong Kong subdivided [45:01] unit? [45:02] This is a rental unit. [45:04] This is a rental unit. Keep looking [45:06] down. [45:07] This is called a "cage home." [45:09] This is, they even made movies about it [45:11] . [45:12] A cage home, that's what it's called. [45:15] Look further down, this is a unit, this [45:17] is a type of unit. [45:18] I’ve seen better ones than this, hmm. [45:20] Keep looking down. [45:21] This is [45:22] This was the Kowloon Walled City. [45:24] The Kowloon Walled City, the old [45:25] Kowloon Walled City has been torn down [45:26] now. [45:27] Torn down, yes. Hey, the Kowloon Walled [45:30] City is a scene you even see in video [45:32] games. [45:33] You know, this slum has now become a [45:36] kind of artistic subject. Many Japanese [45:40] games, including many movies you see [45:42] now, use the old Kowloon Walled City in [45:45] Hong Kong as a template. It’s just, [45:48] wow, what kind of place was this? Back [45:51] then, it was a place where even the [45:53] British police, during the colonial era [45:55] in Hong Kong, wouldn't go inside. Due [45:57] to special historical reasons for this [45:59] area, [45:59] it was nominally under the Qing Dynasty [46:01] . [46:01] It was a non-jurisdictional zone. [46:03] In name, the Qing Dynasty still managed [46:05] it, but in reality, it was a lawless [46:07] place with no oversight at all. [46:08] Moreover, inside... [46:10] The regulations there didn't follow any [46:12] standard codes. [46:13] People simply lived by Qing Dynasty [46:15] laws. [46:16] You know, many children, including even [46:18] Stephen Chow, had that kind of life [46:20] experience back then. In broad daylight [46:23] , you'd have to keep the streetlights [46:24] on; it was like perpetual night. [46:26] With its dense, overlapping structures, [46:29] and water dripping everywhere, it [46:31] formed its own self-contained ecosystem [46:33] . There were factories, doctors, [46:35] products being made, prostitutes, small [46:38] businesses, and, because they only had [46:40] self-governance and mutual protection, [46:42] there was even a criminal underworld [46:44] inside. Oh, it was quite a place. [46:47] You could even use drugs. [46:48] It was really something. [46:49] You could even watch strip shows. [46:50] It’s been torn down now, right? [46:52] Long gone. None of you have been, have [46:54] you? It shouldn't have been completely [46:55] demolished. We believed at the time [46:57] that this area had cultural and even [46:59] architectural value; many scholars [47:01] later explored it and considered it the [47:03] world's earliest example of [47:04] post-modernism. [47:05] You could have preserved it, maybe [47:06] moved some people out. [47:08] Just move the people, because that [47:10] place was basically a natural [47:11] playground. Let me tell you, don't even [47:13] get me started on entering a building. [47:15] First of all, the streets were filled [47:17] with wires and water pipes [47:18] crisscrossing everywhere, just rigged [47:20] up randomly. Then you walk up the [47:22] stairs—no elevators to the tenth [47:24] floor—and suddenly there’s this [47:26] little passage on the tenth floor that [47:27] turns out to be a skybridge connecting [47:29] to another building. You walk across, [47:31] and it’s actually the thirteenth [47:33] floor. How can this side be the tenth [47:35] and that side the thirteenth? Because [47:37] the buildings were of different heights [47:39] , it looked just like a city from a 3D [47:41] science fiction novel, interconnected [47:42] and complex. [47:43] Actually, others' suffering became a [47:45] kind of aesthetic for some. I noticed [47:47] that, because Professor Xu is a fanatic [47:49] about crunching numbers, I didn't find [47:51] it all that profound. [47:53] The shrewdness of Shanghai-style [47:55] culture is really embodied in you. It's [47:58] special, and I truly find it quite [48:00] interesting. People used to tell me [48:03] that Shanghainese have a certain trait, [48:05] and later I saw it in Professor Xu— [48:07] that he's actually quite endearing, you [48:09] know? After he’s carefully calculated [48:12] everything, he feels proud. Unlike a [48:15] nouveau riche from the North who loves [48:17] to brag, "Guess how much this cost?" [48:19] 100,000? Are you insulting my 1 million [48:22] here? Hey, but look, Teacher Xu often [48:25] chats with me, you know, this paint I [48:27] use, it was originally several thousand [48:30] , 5,000 yuan, look where I found it? I [48:33] found it for 4,000 yuan. See, don't you [48:36] think he feels he's being quite [48:38] sensible? [48:39] I just find this very interesting; he [48:41] calculates things so precisely. [48:45] Although you made up this detail—I've [48:48] never seen the paint—it points to a [48:50] very important, how should I say, sharp [48:52] issue. It's indeed like that. [48:57] Shanghainese people, and it's not just [48:59] them, even many people abroad are the [49:01] same; they take pride in the fact that [49:03] "I bought a good product for this much [49:06] money." [49:11] And it's not just Northerners; some [49:12] people in mainland China feel, I think [49:14] the difference lies here, I think the [49:16] former is an employee. [49:20] Mm. [49:23] If I were an employee or a manager, how [49:25] would I show my work achievements? It's [49:28] like, we had an investment of 10 [49:30] million, yet we accomplished this, this [49:33] , and that. Right? The Northerner you [49:36] mentioned, that kind of ostentatious [49:38] type, that's a boss. [49:40] For a boss, the most important thing [49:41] isn't money, but showing you their [49:43] status so you can't quite figure them [49:45] out. I’m very cheap—no, bring the [49:47] most expensive one, you know? That's a [49:49] boss, a Shanghainese person. So Qiu Yu [49:51] said, the Shanghainese are best at [49:52] being employees; they don't have the [49:54] mindset of a boss. [49:55] But let me add one more thing. [49:58] Eileen Chang once said something, her [50:00] ideal. To be the most famous; I want to [50:03] be even more famous than Lin Yutang. I [50:07] want to wear the most stylish clothes, [50:09] I want to have an apartment in Shanghai [50:11] , but towards her later years, the [50:13] Taiwanese media told her your aunt [50:15] passed away, her best friend in life. [50:18] They said, "Come back to Shanghai once, [50:21] we will cover all expenses." It is said [50:23] that Eileen Chang was silent on the [50:25] phone for several minutes before saying [50:27] , "There are too many places in this [50:29] world I haven't been to; I won't go [50:31] back to the places I've already been." [50:33] Mm. [50:35] She never had any property in Shanghai. [50:37] Mm. [50:38] So, writers always brag, but Teacher Xu [50:40] , since you are so good at [50:42] penny-pinching, I’m saying, I invite [50:45] you to... [50:45] How is this considered penny-pinching? [50:47] No, you—can you calculate? I often [50:50] ask Mr. Xu about things in my life. I [50:52] find his calculations to be very sound; [50:54] I feel that money is well spent. Like [50:57] buying a car, nothing else really. [50:59] Not a single bit is wasted, and [51:00] everything is good. So, I’d like you [51:02] to talk to young people today. [51:04] But at the same time, I am wasteful [51:06] myself. About buying a car. [51:08] So I ask, do you intellectuals just [51:10] talk? Giving others advice, just like [51:12] we discussed the other day, regarding [51:14] young people, especially those living [51:16] in Beijing, Shanghai, Guangzhou, [51:18] Shenzhen, or Hong Kong. You look at [51:22] their current struggle: housing, [51:24] renting is so expensive, they feel they [51:26] can barely survive in these cities, [51:28] their income is so limited, and owning [51:30] a home feels so out of reach. [51:35] If it were you, how would you choose? [51:38] Should they grind and suffer? You know, [51:42] there was a documentary in Hong Kong a [51:44] while back—I told you about it— [51:46] where this person wouldn't eat for two [51:48] or three days. [51:50] Uh-huh. [51:51] Just drinking a bowl of soup. [51:52] Uh-huh. [51:54] It got to that point, but his pride was [51:56] in saying that he saved his money. [51:58] To afford a down payment. Someone [52:00] raised this question at the time: is a [52:02] house worth that price? [52:04] It's a level that the UN would consider [52:06] a violation of human dignity. [52:09] Is it worth struggling like that to [52:10] save up for a house, just for marriage [52:12] or something else? [52:14] Or should we embrace the "poetry and [52:16] the distance" and just rent? Or just [52:18] not aim for ownership at all? What do [52:20] you think should be done? [52:22] If you have the money, then buy it, but [52:24] if it’s a struggle, you should rent. [52:28] The main criterion here is that you [52:30] must make your current life as good as [52:32] possible. Otherwise, if you buy a house [52:35] , you’re sacrificing your youth. [52:37] Right. [52:37] You're taking your twenties, which is [52:39] the most priceless thing. [52:40] Right. [52:41] You’re distorting your entire [52:43] lifestyle in your twenties, doing [52:45] things you shouldn't be doing. The cost [52:48] of that is much higher than a house! [52:49] Absolutely not, I completely agree. I [52:52] think the biggest problem in China [52:54] today is that many young people [52:56] sacrifice their quality of daily life. [52:58] First of all, I am a Buddhist, and we [53:00] believe that life is impermanent. You [53:03] say I’ll grind for these five years, [53:05] enduring hardship to save for a down [53:06] payment, but I don’t know what I’ll [53:08] be like in five years. [53:10] I don’t know; it’s impermanent. [53:11] What if— [53:12] Regardless, if I have a house in five [53:14] years, will I truly have peace of mind? [53:16] You might not even live to see five [53:17] years from now. [53:18] And in those five years, you have a [53:19] house. [53:20] You lived those five years tired and in [53:22] pain, and just as you're about to [53:24] afford a home, you pass away. [53:27] Besides, the rise in housing prices [53:29] isn't permanent, especially if you're [53:31] doing things you never wanted to do and [53:33] kissing up to people you never wanted [53:34] to just to get there; the price you pay [53:36] is too high. Exactly, I think this is [53:40] another big issue: young people, [53:42] Chinese youth, are tied down by houses [53:44] and then become too afraid to do [53:46] anything at all. [53:47] Too afraid to even dream. Let me ask [53:49] you another question then: even if you [53:50] can't buy, even if you are just renting [53:52] , right? [53:53] And you can't rent a place you're [53:54] satisfied with, right? The space is [53:56] cramped, and living there is very [53:57] uncomfortable. But my job is in Beijing [53:59] , Shanghai, or Guangzhou, and it's very [54:01] important to me. If I return to my [54:03] hometown, I might not be able to accept [54:05] the level of development there, so what [54:07] should I do? [54:09] Right, I think it comes down to how [54:11] much money you have and how old you are [54:12] . Regarding the UN standard you just [54:14] mentioned, it says that if you spend [54:16] one-third of your income—whether [54:18] renting or buying, like paying a [54:19] mortgage—it's generally considered [54:21] reasonable. [54:22] If it exceeds one-third, you're forced [54:23] to live on scraps, and that really is [54:25] distorted. And there's more, I think [54:27] there's also the issue of age. Honestly [54:29] , like me, if I didn't have children [54:30] right now, I could imagine going off to [54:32] some distant place, moving whenever I [54:34] want. I do think that sometimes you can [54:36] rent in a location that you simply [54:37] could never afford to buy in, right? [54:39] It's a completely different life. But [54:40] once you have children, it's basically [54:42] not easy to move anymore, because [54:44] moving is psychologically very damaging [54:46] to a young child; they feel a sense of [54:47] abandonment, it's true, it really is. [54:49] Home is, for a child's psychology— [54:51] I used to think children under two [54:53] wouldn't have memories or understand [54:54] friendships or familiarity, but that's [54:56] completely wrong. I moved once, and it [54:58] was deeply damaging to my daughter; she [54:59] kept wanting to go back to the old [55:01] place. It's been over a year since we [55:02] moved, and she still talks about going [55:04] back all the time. It caused so much [55:06] harm; she’s even afraid to sleep [55:08] alone now. And what I want to say is, [55:10] if you can afford to spend a third of [55:12] your income, or even if it exceeds that [55:14] third, stop overthinking it while you [55:16] don't have kids. Just enjoy yourself— [55:19] rent, do whatever you want. Just rent, [55:21] just move; I don't see a problem with [55:22] that. It's about experiencing different [55:24] lives. [55:25] There's something else important about [55:26] renting versus buying for your life. [55:29] Like we talked about last time [55:30] regarding marriage and making friends, [55:32] in reality, when you buy a house, you [55:35] have to consider many of its flaws. You [55:38] have to look at every shortcoming, [55:40] especially with a second-hand property [55:42] —does it leak, does rain get in, [55:44] what's the dispute situation like? You [55:47] have to be very realistic. But when [55:50] you're renting, you focus on the pros. [55:52] You look at the nice view or the good [55:54] decor. Sometimes in life, there are [55:57] things you need to be reliable. You [56:00] look at the worst-case scenario. Like [56:04] Yang Jiang said, a rope is only as [56:06] strong as its weakest point. Otherwise, [56:09] if there's a weak link in that rope, I [56:11] can't use it, right? That’s buying a [56:13] house. Renting is really a more [56:15] romantic, yet practical, attitude [56:17] toward life. [56:18] I completely agree. It's similar to my [56:20] situation because I live quite [56:22] differently. I spend most of the year [56:24] staying in hotels. Staying in different [56:26] hotels. Love hotels are fine too, but [56:29] the point is, when you stay in a hotel [56:31] —for example, if I check into a hotel [56:33] today, I’m not going to worry about [56:35] whether the building is sturdy. [56:39] I won't check for leaks or worry about [56:40] the local school district. You don't [56:42] think about those things. What do I [56:44] consider? Is the hotel comfortable? Is [56:48] it nice? Is it modern? Is it convenient [56:51] ? Those are the things I consider. So, [56:56] if we view renting as a sort of [56:57] long-term hotel stay, [57:00] then your perspective changes entirely. [57:03] So, this life—we aren't just passing [57:05] travelers or temporary tenants, are we? [57:07] And I think I’m the greediest; I want [57:09] everything you've both mentioned. For [57:11] example, hearing this—I’m the same [57:14] as him. I once said, the world is my [57:16] home. Tonight, wherever I stay, that [57:18] hotel is my home. Even this hotel room [57:21] is my home. I even bring incense to set [57:23] it up. This is my home for tonight. In [57:26] the long journey of life, it might be [57:28] the last night here, right? And I'll [57:30] never come back again, right? So I have [57:32] this [57:33] If I see something that's an eyesore, [57:35] the whole night is ruined. [57:36] Exactly, exactly. Tonight, no matter [57:38] whose house I'm staying at, it's [57:40] basically my home, or rather, it has to [57:42] be. [57:42] No matter whose bed it is, it's my bed [57:44] too. [57:44] Right, right, right. The bed is what [57:46] matters. Yes, yes, I've even crashed on [57:48] Mr. Xu's bed before, have you forgotten [57:50] ? [57:50] In Hong Kong. [57:51] Yes, yes, yes. [57:53] In Hong Kong, you measure space by how [57:54] many sides of the bed you can get out [57:56] of. [57:56] Whether you can get out of the bed from [57:58] three sides, two sides, or if you only [57:59] have one side to determine how big your [58:01] living space is. [58:02] Three sides is a luxury, let me tell [58:03] you. [58:04] How about four sides? I think Hong [58:06] Kongers have never really been [58:08] liberated. In terms of living space, [58:12] Hong Kongers are millionaires in a [58:13] sense, but their homes still reek of [58:15] poverty. Why is that? I've been to Hong [58:19] Kong and seen those "luxury" apartments [58:21] —top-tier mansions, thousands of [58:22] square feet—but when you look at them [58:24] , they're still meant for poor people. [58:26] For a house of several thousand square [58:27] feet, hundreds of square meters, [58:29] couldn't you divide it into twenty [58:30] rooms? Like you said, every room has a [58:32] bathroom; they practically want a dozen [58:34] bathrooms. They have bathrooms just so [58:36] the family can cram into a tiny space. [58:38] The abundance of bathrooms is just so [58:40] more people can live together. [58:41] I've compared it. Take London, for [58:43] instance—that area that recently had [58:45] that big fire, Kensington. [58:47] The money for one apartment in Hong [58:49] Kong could buy you a much larger place [58:51] over there. But what I want to say is [58:55] that the London fire actually [58:57] highlights how, in cities with sky-high [58:59] property prices worldwide, that [59:01] building in the London fire... [59:05] It was public housing. It was full of [59:07] tenants. [59:08] And yet, that’s one of London's most [59:10] upscale residential areas, right? [59:12] Exactly. [59:14] The area is full of nice houses, but [59:16] there’s just this one building— [59:18] public housing—where people who [59:20] couldn't make it elsewhere, including [59:22] Syrian refugees, had to live. And [59:24] because they lived there, they wouldn't [59:26] even maintain the place properly just [59:28] to save money. It ended up like that. I [59:33] think the tragedy of renting only [59:35] happens under these circumstances— [59:37] when a city turns real estate into an [59:39] investment vehicle. In cities like [59:43] London, Hong Kong, or New York, renting [59:45] becomes truly miserable. [59:49] Exactly, I think with the way housing [59:51] prices are rising and rents are getting [59:53] more expensive, it's becoming harder to [59:55] afford rent. By comparison, in cities [59:59] like Beijing, Shanghai, and Guangzhou, [60:02] owning a home as a young person [60:04] represents wealth that is simply [60:06] unimaginable. Don't even talk about [60:09] whether we should buy a house or not. I [60:12] find it strange—look at many [60:14] foreigners you mention, they all rent [60:16] their homes. Even our friend Gao [60:19] Xiaosong, with his talk of "poetry and [60:21] faraway places," always tells me I live [60:24] a miserable life just because I'm [60:26] obsessed with buying a big house. Once [60:29] you buy it, what then? "Poetry and [60:31] faraway places." Well, that's Gao [60:33] Xiaosong for you. As for me, I think [60:35] I'm a typical Chinese person. Why are [60:39] we always dreaming of owning a house? [60:42] Even with my years of experience [60:44] renting, my true feeling is: let me [60:46] have a house first, then I can pursue [60:48] my "faraway places." I feel that owning [60:52] a house doesn't hinder my travels; my [60:54] pursuit of "faraway places" isn't my [60:57] everyday lifestyle 365 days a year [60:59] anyway. After wandering around outside, [61:01] don't Chinese people still feel a sense [61:03] of "falling leaves returning to their [61:05] roots"? Or maybe at my age, even if [61:07] it's not quite time to "return to my [61:09] roots," it just feels like I need a [61:10] sense of security. The housing [61:12] situation in China is very complex. On [61:15] one hand, it completely adopted Hong [61:17] Kong's model of land sales, driving up [61:19] prices and following the game rules set [61:22] by Hong Kong developers. But on the [61:24] other hand... [61:25] The proportion of people who own homes [61:27] in China's big cities is far higher [61:29] than in Hong Kong, and it might even be [61:31] among the highest in the world. [61:32] As long as you were originally a [61:34] resident of the city—I've asked [61:36] around in Xi'an and Shanghai—80%to 90 [61:38] %of people with local household [61:40] registration have a house, for better [61:43] or worse. Even the worst ones, like the [61:45] teaching assistants at our university, [61:47] were allocated small apartments back [61:49] then. They come to me now and say, "My [61:51] house is worth five million now." Even [61:53] though it's actually quite small, [61:55] psychologically they feel like [61:57] they’ve become part of the [61:58] multi-millionaire class. But the [62:00] problem is, twenty years from now, it [62:02] will look like the current situation: [62:04] those of you who "got ashore" early [62:06] stay ashore forever, while the young [62:08] people who haven't "got on the bus" are [62:10] always chasing the last one, afraid [62:11] they'll miss it. However, looking back, [62:14] I think sometimes you can try to be a [62:16] bit more open-minded. For example, for [62:18] example, I have a friend, a friend in [62:20] Hong Kong, who bought a house. He said [62:23] he used to be like me, thinking one [62:25] shouldn't buy a house, that he wanted [62:27] to see the world and the distant places [62:29] ; that was his dream, that someday he [62:31] would travel the world. But later he [62:34] worked his whole life, saved up a sum [62:36] of money, and bought a house. It’s [62:38] quite nice, over 1,000 square feet, [62:40] which is a luxury size in Hong Kong. [62:42] Yeah, that's about 100 square meters. I [62:45] asked him how much the house cost, and [62:46] he gave me a number. I helped him [62:48] calculate it, thinking about his plan [62:50] for old age and the need for a place to [62:52] stay, so I crunched the numbers for him [62:54] . [62:54] You could just keep renting forever. [62:56] No. He could find—didn't he want to [62:58] travel the world? There is this type of [63:00] cruise ship. That kind of cruise is [63:02] quite luxurious; the whole ship doesn't [63:04] hold more than 500 people, mostly [63:06] retired seniors, the wealthy, and so on [63:08] . [63:08] You just give them that sum of money [63:10] now. The house he has now. If you sell [63:15] this house and pay the cruise company [63:17] upfront, you can live on the ship for [63:19] 40 years, traveling the world the whole [63:21] time. [63:24] Oh. [63:25] And medical care and everything else is [63:26] included, and I told them about this. [63:28] 40 years. [63:29] A mobile nursing home. [63:30] Is there a chance of hitting a [63:32] Titanic-like iceberg in 40 years? [63:34] Right, look, look, we are always so [63:35] wary of things that are drifting and [63:37] uncertain. [63:37] You see, you guys still can't let go of [63:39] the "distant places." [63:41] Mathematically speaking, if you sell [63:43] your nice house now, never mind the [63:46] ship, you could rent excellent hotels [63:48] all over the world, staying in such [63:50] places. [63:53] You could live your whole life just [63:54] like that. [63:55] But you probably couldn't—what about [63:57] all your stuff? Why? You don't need [63:59] that many things. [64:00] Studying history, I’ve reached this [64:02] conclusion. [64:03] Nomadic peoples have already gone [64:05] extinct. [64:06] Of course, there are still a few [64:08] individuals, but have you ever thought [64:10] about why human nomadism...Why was [64:11] nomadism good, but now no one is [64:13] nomadic anymore? Why is the overall [64:15] major trend leaning toward settling [64:17] down? [64:17] Regarding human settlement, from living [64:19] in one house to staying in hotels [64:21] around the world, I personally lean [64:23] toward the latter. [64:25] But the only issue is that a house just [64:27] sits there; by the time 10 years have [64:29] passed, you’re halfway through your [64:30] journey. A 5-million-dollar house [64:34] becomes 10 million, so the traveler's [64:36] original funds are effectively halved, [64:38] so this debate is a... [64:40] You know our financial expert, Mr. Wu [64:42] Xiaobo? I watched his speech the other [64:44] day. He's so aggressive in his speeches [64:47] now, coming out with some punchlines, [64:48] like saying why you work so hard and [64:50] still have nothing to show for it. Now [64:53] it's the Chinese who are starting to [64:54] gaze at white people. In the past, it [64:56] was white people gazing at Orientals, [64:59] right? Now we call them "white trash," [65:01] but there is indeed an observation that [65:03] they stir-fry with less oil and grease. [65:06] Yes. [65:07] But if it’s all like this, then where [65:09] is China? You have to tell us about the [65:12] sauce. [65:13] And I have to cite something you sorted [65:16] out, this is CCTV data. It’s about [65:19] their show*A Bite of China*; they have [65:21] very precise viewership ratings for [65:23] what audiences love most. How about you [65:25] say it yourself, what is third? [65:28] Third is oily foods, [65:30] like foods such as braised pork belly. [65:33] Second is staple foods. [65:38] When people have time, they think more [65:40] about problems, like how to view this [65:42] stuff. Perhaps for someone like me who [65:48] makes food content their daily life, [65:54] for such a person, I can even sit at a [65:56] table now and watch people eat without [65:58] eating a single bite from start to [65:59] finish. I can do that. [66:02] Aren't you tempted? [66:03] I was, but after repeated training, I'm [66:06] not anymore. Oh. [66:10] Um, just like you, when I have to [66:12] record a show, my sense of [66:13] responsibility tells me to produce it, [66:15] but I won't reduce how often I eat, [66:17] because eating isn't just meaningful to [66:19] the individual; it has social [66:21] significance. [66:25] You eat with your family. [66:26] You. [66:27] Didn't you say you only eat one meal a [66:29] day? [66:29] Yes, I do. How else could you reduce it [66:31] ? [66:32] I can cut out a meal, but I can sit [66:33] next to you during the second meal. [66:38] Watching you eat, with a keeper's smile [66:40] on my face—that's high-level stuff [66:42] right there. You've talked a lot about [66:47] the physiology, psychology, and [66:48] aesthetics of eating. [66:52] It reminds me of a passage in a novel I [66:54] read. [66:55] Mm. [66:56] That*Green Tree*. [66:58] Mm. * [66:58] Green Tree*by Zhang Xianliang, the [67:01] protagonist, helps a woman fix a table, [67:03] and she takes a liking to him. As a [67:07] result, she hands him a millstone; I [67:09] can almost recite this part by heart. [67:13] Mm. [67:14] He said, "I've lived for twenty-some [67:16] years.""I haven't touched this for [67:18] eight years." This, what do you call it [67:21] ? The surface of the stone. [67:24] Mm. [67:25] It's just the grinding part of the [67:26] stone. And what follows is even better, [67:30] he says it has her fingerprints on it, [67:33] the spiral ones, not the loops. [67:36] Mm. [67:37] There are two types of fingerprints. [67:43] Saying that Luo Bu is a chicken, my [67:45] tears just fell, landing on that [67:47] steamed bun, and the woman said one [67:49] thing afterward: from now on, what I [67:52] eat, you will eat. [67:56] Mm. [67:58] This is the Chinese version of the [68:00] Titanic declaration, "You jump, I jump. [68:02] "" [68:05] What I eat, you will eat"—this is the [68:07] most supreme declaration of love. [68:09] Regarding such a detail, why do I think [68:11] it's so good? I'm now thinking of what [68:13] you mentioned about the biological, [68:15] Mm. [68:17] the psychological, [68:19] the aesthetic, and the ethical, [68:21] right? All these layers can be [68:24] penetrated by a single plot point. So, [68:27] Professor Xu, it's no wonder our [68:29] birthdays are on the same day. I'm not [68:31] kidding you; look, I originally [68:33] prepared to read a short passage from [68:35] his book on today's show, look, I even [68:37] dog-eared the page. Let me tell you, [68:40] Professor Chen, I read what you wrote [68:42] in "Eating Until We Grow Old," and [68:44] honestly, it reminded me of what Lu Xun [68:46] said—that the whole thing is, after [68:49] reading your book, I felt the whole [68:51] text only contains two words: poverty. [68:54] Yes, I feel that everything he writes [68:56] is. [68:57] Or just living in poverty. Look, listen [69:00] , you can hear why I say he is a tough [69:02] guy with a tender heart; there's this [69:04] passage where he says his father [69:06] especially loved a certain sesame [69:08] flatbread. And that flatbread, he [69:12] described it as being so delicious. [69:16] Then, in 1960, on his way to visit a [69:18] classmate across the city, his father [69:20] went to another school to visit a [69:22] friend, accompanied by a female [69:24] classmate, a fellow student from the [69:26] Dabie Mountains. Because this girl also [69:31] had a classmate at that school, they [69:33] traveled together. Between the two [69:35] schools, the ten-plus miles of road [69:37] were hard to cover on an empty stomach. [69:41] On this journey, when they encountered [69:43] that flatbread stall, his father [69:45] hesitated for a long time, bought one [69:47] flatbread, divided it into a large and [69:49] a small piece, and handed the large one [69:51] to the girl. After quickly finishing [69:57] the smaller piece himself, he bit his [69:59] lip, quietly watching the girl eat it [70:01] bit by bit—as you know, this girl [70:03] later became my mother. Reading this, [70:08] tears almost fell from my eyes; you see [70:10] , isn't it the same idea as what you [70:12] were talking about? [70:15] Even now, I still sympathize with his [70:17] mother for being tricked by a small [70:18] piece of flatbread. [70:21] This story is actually about my son [70:23] going to the United States. [70:25] To study. Saying to him, my mother, his [70:28] grandmother, was teaching him life [70:30] lessons. Oh. [70:34] Saying, when you look for a girlfriend [70:36] in the future, don't look at anything [70:38] else, just look for a kind heart; she [70:41] must treat you well—this I finally [70:43] fully understood. [70:48] So Grandma wants your son's girlfriend [70:50] to give him the bigger portion, the [70:51] opposite. [70:54] If you were a mother wishing your son [70:56] well, you'd want to find a girlfriend [70:57] who gives him the bigger share, right? [71:00] Actually, this is memory. Every era [71:03] probably has things like this, memories [71:05] triggered by food. I went to eat [71:09] noodles at noon today, and I had eaten [71:11] these noodles before. Someone [71:14] recommended this noodle shop to me, [71:15] saying it was excellent. I went there [71:17] to eat, and I thought the noodles were [71:19] quite good, but if you call it [71:21] Chongqing-style, it’s perhaps not " [71:23] rough" enough—not simple and bold [71:25] enough, a bit too mild. I asked, "Are [71:27] you the one who makes these noodles?"" [71:29] Who did you learn from?" The male owner [71:31] looked at me and said, "I don't know [71:33] how to make them.""I just run the shop. [71:36] ""And this...is she your wife?" I asked [71:40] . "No, no," he replied, "we both have [71:43] our own families.""She,"" [71:46] learned it from her grandmother." I [71:48] said, "Oh, let me ask her." So I asked. [71:50] I asked, "Is your grandmother from [71:52] Chongqing?" She said, "No, she's from [71:54] Guangyuan." I said, "Oh, no wonder this [71:57] tasted like beef bone noodles, the kind [71:59] from Guangyuan—where they take a cow [72:01] leg, saw off a thick slice of meat with [72:03] the bone in the middle. Those are so [72:07] delicious!" I told them, "It's more [72:09] like that." She said, "You actually [72:11] know that? That's true, that's exactly [72:14] what we eat there." So, today at noon, [72:17] I ordered the beef bone noodles. [72:19] I said, "This isn't the simplest thing. [72:21] " Then I asked, "How did you guys..."" [72:25] ...you both have families, yet you're [72:27] running a noodle shop here?" He said, " [72:28] It's not like that.""It's like this." [72:31] The two of them talked to me for over [72:33] 40 minutes. About why they changed [72:35] careers. He said, "I heard you've [72:37] filmed documentaries about noodles [72:39] before. You seem to work in film and [72:41] television too.""I am a TV drama [72:43] screenwriter."" [72:46] Our company is failing; we just [72:47] couldn't keep going."" [72:50] And she worked in TV publicity. We [72:53] started this small physical business to [72:56] see if we could still make a living to [72:58] support our families."" [73:01] Most importantly, I feel like I don't [73:03] fit into this era anymore." I listened. [73:06] I asked, "Why?" He said, "Look, the [73:08] screenwriting and dramatic theory I [73:10] studied—this craft just isn't useful [73:13] today.""I am a storyteller."" [73:16] Yeah.""Yeah."" [73:17] People today don't need stories anymore [73:19] ."" [73:19] They need 'emotional value.' Do you [73:21] know what emotional value is?" Then he [73:23] explained this "emotional value" to me. [73:26] Then they talked about KPIs, ROCs, and [73:28] this kind of modern way. Industry. The [73:35] demands of the TV industry on a creator [73:37] ; he feels that nowadays, you just find [73:39] a pretty kid to sit there and chat [73:41] casually, and people will watch it just [73:43] like they watch a drama. The edifice [73:49] that once built his dreams of drama is [73:52] gone; in reality, everyone is just [73:53] running wild in the wilderness. Oh my, [73:59] is this really just a meal? [74:04] I think the reason we go out to eat is [74:06] so you can see a world you wouldn't [74:07] normally encounter. You meet different [74:15] people; just like I wrote in my book, [74:17] at a skewer place I like—because of [74:19] the lines, I like to go early—I heard [74:20] workers there picking chili peppers, [74:22] and they said, "Do you know what the [74:24] best-tasting thing in the world is?" [74:29] You say you don't know, and a man says [74:31] "Moutai liquor." Right, they all say [74:34] Moutai is the best, then you ask that [74:36] man, "Have you ever had Moutai?" [74:39] He said, "I've had the leftovers from [74:41] guests." Thinking. He said, "I suggest [74:44] not drinking too much Moutai; for [74:46] example, it's something meant to be [74:48] enjoyed at home, but you drank Moutai." [74:51] Then you get drunk and talk to others. [74:55] Oh my, look at that afternoon sun [74:56] before it set, with a few people [74:58] picking chili peppers. Oh, it feels [75:02] like this is a scene you couldn't buy [75:04] with any amount of money. [75:07] Two people say Moutai is best, four [75:09] people, four people say Moutai is best. [75:13] Actually, they have nothing to do with [75:15] Moutai, yet they are talking about it; [75:17] you realize, wow, it really is that [75:19] food is the best way to look at the [75:20] world. [75:23] Regarding this appreciation for food, I [75:25] shed tears the first time I ate [75:27] something. I’m not just trying to [75:30] lead into what I’m talking about [75:31] today, but really, truly, it was the [75:33] first time. I’ve eaten at many [75:37] Michelin restaurants in Hong Kong, and [75:39] when I travel, I try to collect stars [75:40] —that’s how we put it—we think [75:42] it’s delicious and pretty, but it [75:44] doesn't move you. Then they mentioned [75:48] this Noma, the Danish restaurant, said [75:49] to be number one. Teacher, which season [75:52] did you go to eat at? [75:53] I haven't been, sorry, I haven't eaten [75:55] there, regardless of which one. [75:57] Because it's closing, right? Well. [76:00] It's closing this year, so for us, [76:01] booking it is like winning the lottery; [76:04] you have to keep refreshing, just like [76:06] refreshing for concert tickets. He's [76:07] very lucky, we all just watched it on [76:10] TV. [76:10] So I was refreshing the page, I managed [76:12] to snag a reservation for four, and he [76:14] said let's go, but I asked who would [76:15] watch the kids? I even told him I [76:17] wouldn't go, but he insisted we [76:18] couldn't miss it because they were [76:20] closing down, so we had to go. I’ll [76:22] be honest, I think it’s about the [76:24] story; maybe the reason I shed tears at [76:26] that final bite was because of the [76:27] whole journey. Think about how hard we [76:30] worked for this. I spent two months [76:32] looking for a nanny, searched in [76:34] Finland, and even offered to pay a [76:36] fortune for someone to fly to Denmark [76:37] to watch my kids for four hours so I [76:39] could eat there. There were no nannies [76:41] available for those four hours just for [76:43] that meal. [76:44] Then, Noma told me that many guests say [76:46] the same thing, and they actually have [76:48] a nanny referral site. [76:50] They give recommendations, and in the [76:52] end, do you know what I did? I flew my [76:55] parents-in-law in from Taiwan. Since we [76:57] had four spots, we asked Noma if we [76:59] could split it: two people for dinner [77:01] and two for lunch. We took turns [77:04] watching the kids so we could both eat [77:06] there. Noma was great about it and said [77:09] , "Sure, let's do that." First off, for [77:12] a restaurant ranked number one in the [77:13] world, they never made me feel any [77:15] pressure, from our initial [77:16] communication to the moment we arrived. [77:19] I truly believe a genuinely confident, [77:21] world-class restaurant is always the [77:23] most humble; they never rank or [77:25] categorize their guests. I felt zero [77:29] pressure there, no need to worry about [77:31] dressing up or acting all sophisticated [77:33] ; they just welcomed us. I think that [77:36] matters, because I have to tell you, we [77:38] were the first ones to walk through [77:39] that main gate, the one with the [77:41] reindeer antlers. They applauded warmly [77:44] to welcome us—not us applauding them, [77:46] they just started cheering as soon as [77:47] we walked in. [77:48] It would be absurd if you applauded [77:50] them, why would you applaud when just [77:52] walking in? [77:53] You're supposed to do that at the end [77:54] if they did a good job. [77:55] You should only cry after you’ve [77:56] finished eating. [77:57] Exactly, you can’t walk in crying; [77:59] people would think you’re there to [78:01] inspect the place or something. Anyway, [78:04] the atmosphere was very relaxed, and [78:06] when I finally ate, the whole process [78:08] just made me quite emotional. The first [78:11] dish was just chicken. Their signature [78:14] way of serving is to have you eat it as [78:16] is, then add a sauce and eat it again, [78:18] then maybe add something else, [78:20] repeating it like three times. But [78:23] That just amounts to eating different [78:25] sauces. [78:25] No, not quite. You first taste the [78:27] original flavor, then maybe add a sauce [78:29] , or perhaps add another ingredient. [78:31] He’s offering you a suggestion, not [78:33] making a demand. [78:34] Let me see the photos, let me see how [78:37] delicious it really is. I’ve never [78:41] heard of it, but in this entire niche [78:43] culinary field, he is doing something [78:45] truly, truly...... [78:48] amazing, yes, and you... [78:50] That chef has a laboratory, and this is [78:52] the chicken I just mentioned. Look, [78:54] doesn't it look quite simple? I’m [78:56] Chinese, so when you look at it, you [78:58] think it’s very simple, right? But [78:59] when I actually tasted it, you know [79:01] what I thought of? I’m not saying it [79:03] tastes the same, but I thought of Hong [79:04] Kong, I thought of my favorite soy [79:06] sauce chicken rice. I felt like it had [79:07] been so long since I’d had such [79:09] delicious, fatty chicken. [79:10] It really stirs up so many emotions. [79:12] This must be a dry-aged chicken. Yes, [79:14] and I find it quite interesting. Maybe [79:17] because I’m Asian, but all the [79:19] foreigners next to us, the first course [79:21] of chicken they were served included [79:22] the whole bird, even the chicken head [79:24] ...... [79:26] was placed right in front of them to [79:27] look at while they ate. We thought, [79:29] foreigners usually hate seeing things [79:31] like eyes or fish eyes. One of their [79:33] courses was a seafood-based one, though [79:35] I didn't have that; I had the [79:37] game-based one. The red layer you see [79:39] here, that is... [79:41] Kombucha, do you know it? It’s [79:44] fermented tea. [79:45] Kombucha. [79:46] Kombucha. [79:47] It’s terrifying. [79:48] Then he took the kombucha... [79:51] Yes, he took the SCOBY from the [79:52] kombucha, scraped it off, and served it [79:54] for you to eat. [79:56] At a certain level, you’re just [79:58] eating stories. [79:58] Yes. [79:59] Well, not just stories, not entirely [80:01] stories. I’ve generally had similar [80:04] types of food, but in reality, it [80:05] offers a completely different taste [80:07] experience. The key point is that once [80:11] you enter the professional world of [80:13] fine dining, you might need to [80:14] rediscover the world. For example, the [80:18] aging I mentioned—we used to define " [80:20] cooked" as something that had been [80:22] roasted, boiled, or stir-fried over a [80:24] fire, right? [80:25] Actually, that’s not necessarily true [80:27] ; its most significant characteristic [80:29] is fermentation. Yes. [80:31] Fermentation is the second greatest [80:33] discovery for humans after the [80:34] discovery of fire. Before we climbed [80:38] down from the trees, we couldn't digest [80:40] these things. So how do we define raw [80:43] and cooked? This restaurant has given [80:46] us a new answer; it’s boundless. [80:49] It's closed now. [80:50] About to close, it's just raw muscle. [80:52] It's just natural fermentation. No, not [80:55] natural fermentation. This aging [80:57] process is actually quite unique. [81:00] It’s extremely complex. Take ham, for [81:02] instance—Spanish ham. When we were [81:04] filming and asked about fermentation, [81:06] they said, "No, we don't call it [81:08] fermentation, we call it aging." [81:10] Right. [81:12] Because once it's aged, you can eat it [81:14] raw. Mm. [81:20] My expertise isn't quite enough to [81:22] cover this, but there certainly is a [81:24] vast array of foods we can get through [81:25] fermentation that our bodies can absorb [81:27] without any harm. [81:33] Yes, it’s a type that—this [81:34] restaurant doesn't even use vinegar. [81:37] Right, they use ants for everything. [81:39] Yes. [81:40] They use formic acid, using nature's [81:42] acid. [81:42] Mm. [81:44] Using ants. [81:45] So you think you're eating nothing, but [81:47] you're actually eating acid. [81:48] Oh my god. [81:49] But it's just a little bit, and then [81:51] you... [81:51] Haven't eaten it yet, so... [81:53] No, no, the point is that at first I [81:54] would feel it too, and then I’d frown [81:56] , right? [81:57] I had two opportunities, but I felt the [81:59] journey was too far; I’m a rather [82:00] lazy person. But I told myself, just [82:02] like my son eating strawberries, you [82:04] have to let go of your preconceptions. [82:06] And you must—this chef respects every [82:08] single thing. When all the sauces come [82:10] together, you think, "I really..." The [82:12] "delicious" I’m talking about now [82:14] means it never makes you feel like [82:16] everything has blended into one; it’s [82:18] distinctly three flavors. [82:19] Your mouth— [82:20] When you drink, don't you savor the [82:22] notes? You talk about the front, middle [82:24] , and finish. Yes, that’s to say [82:26] I’ve shifted from spatial layers to [82:28] temporal layers. Eh. [82:30] Oh my. [82:31] What does it mean to chew and chew [82:33] until you get a sweetness, and then [82:35] slowly it... [82:38] It makes your mouth contract first, and [82:40] when it opens up, all the fluids you [82:42] secrete are sweet. [82:45] Drinking tea is very high-end, right? [82:47] Yes, you have to eat while drinking tea [82:49] ; that's really what it means. And the [82:52] fact that even a layman like me can [82:53] understand it, I think that’s the [82:55] most impressive part. It means you [82:57] don’t have to be a food expert; I [82:59] just sit there and follow along. I just [83:01] want to eat seriously and not keep [83:03] chatting. I just eat slowly and enjoy [83:04] the moment, and I think, "My god, there [83:06] are several independent souls in my [83:08] mouth, yet they coordinate so early and [83:10] so well, without overshadowing each [83:12] other." It’s like they’re saying, " [83:14] We’re all great." But I don't mean [83:16] that just because I'm here saying these [83:17] things, I want to overshadow anyone; [83:19] that's not it. It's that we can all do [83:21] well together, and then communicate and [83:23] create something new. I feel like [83:25] Teacher Xiaoqing has a successor, a [83:27] beautiful successor! Wow, six or seven [83:30] souls, the author must be stunned by [83:32] this description. [83:34] He shifted the problem from space to [83:35] time. Space is just that the place is [83:39] very far, we can't go there, and we [83:41] can't experience it, right? Shifted to [83:43] what kind of time? We were just talking [83:45] about the problem of not having enough [83:47] to eat. [83:47] Right. He skipped over the hunger issue [83:50] and moved into not knowing what to eat. [83:53] That's right, you know, because it's [83:55] actually Maslow's hierarchy of needs. [84:00] Many things we discuss are related to [84:02] basic survival, our class identity, and [84:04] our sense of security. What he's [84:09] talking about is not on the same level [84:11] as the food we usually discuss; it's [84:13] aesthetic. Exactly, it's culinary arts. [84:18] From that topic, he suddenly jumped to [84:20] this. You know, when I heard his [84:22] description, I thought, "Is this a [84:24] crime?" Back in the day, our parents [84:26] would share a single flatbread, and [84:28] these people are making this now. But [84:31] that was back then; he is talking about [84:32] the present. And someone described it [84:36] that way, just like that, about the [84:38] souls and bodies. Someone said that [84:42] when it's so good that he's finished [84:44] eating and we have nothing left, we [84:45] should ask him to open his mouth and [84:47] breathe out those souls. [84:50] Ah, just by smelling them, we'd feel [84:52] it's delicious. [84:53] Coming out of the seven orifices. If we [84:55] lean in and smell it, I hope those [84:57] seven souls are fine; just don't end up [84:59] eating seven bodies. [85:01] But I think he taught me another [85:02] perspective on food. After I came out, [85:05] I truly started to...because their [85:07] chefs have a laboratory. [85:09] Right. [85:09] And I think... [85:10] Like, like a religion. Yeah, right. [85:13] Even the waiter—he arranged for a [85:15] waiter from Taiwan for me. First, I [85:18] felt that this place gathers people [85:19] from all over, like... [85:21] There are people from all over the [85:22] world. [85:23] Koreans, Chinese, they have everyone. [85:25] Right, and they use a language you're [85:26] familiar with to explain it to you. And [85:28] then, he pointed to that small house [85:30] and said, "Do you see that small house [85:31] with the faint light?" I said, "I see [85:33] it." He said, "Do you see that person?" [85:35] It must be our chef, and I thought, " [85:37] Wow," it's like a laboratory in there. [85:41] He requires everything to be started as [85:43] much as possible from scratch, [85:44] especially things like plants and herbs [85:46] —he insists on growing them from [85:48] nothing because he believes that's the [85:50] only way to know how to use them and [85:52] truly respect the process. Then why [85:55] would he close it? Because this process [85:57] is too exhausting. To tend to them well [86:00] and grow them to be fresh and delicious [86:02] enough for you to taste their intended [86:04] flavor is a massive undertaking. And [86:07] his wine selection—I thought his wine [86:09] would be something extraordinary, like, [86:10] "Wow." But then I asked about the wine, [86:13] and he said our wine comes from [86:14] whenever any staff member interested in [86:16] wine attends a meeting; you just throw [86:18] out where you're going in Europe to [86:19] drink, and they'll even give the staff [86:21] time off. [86:22] Hm. [86:23] Go drink, do your gourmet exploration; [86:25] you don't need to eat at high-end [86:27] places. Then come back and tell me what [86:29] wine you drank, and you, and you— [86:31] bring them all back so we can taste [86:33] them together. That’s when I felt [86:36] this chef didn't have the rigid [86:38] standards I expected, but he deeply [86:39] respected everyone's position, you know [86:41] ? That’s why he was able to create [86:43] something I felt was so unique. Can [86:46] online livestreams even compete with [86:48] him? Even I, who knows nothing about it [86:52] , was moved by him. [86:54] My question is, why couldn't it stay [86:56] open? [86:57] It’s simply because it wasn't making [86:58] money. [86:59] Not profitable; he says his fine dining [87:01] —that is, high-end gastronomy—is... [87:04] Fine dining. [87:05] Fine dining isn't eco-friendly. [87:07] Hm. [87:08] Because if you think about it, you only [87:10] eat a few seeds off a strawberry, so [87:12] what do you do with the rest? You just [87:15] have to throw it away, or if you want [87:17] to reuse it, it's too difficult. So you [87:19] essentially waste more ingredients than [87:21] you actually consume. Right, as you [87:25] just mentioned, if this thing becomes a [87:27] religion—actually, the so-called [87:29] health-conscious meals of today, some [87:31] white people trace it all the way back [87:33] to that hippie movement in the 1960s. [87:38] Yes, actually, this was a type of food [87:40] promoted by the hippies at the time. It [87:44] seems to have started in the American [87:46] West, where there was a person, maybe a [87:48] teacher or something, who learned some [87:50] yoga and spirituality. He promoted the [87:54] idea that eating meat is a sin, and [87:56] advocated for plant-based, raw, and [87:58] grain-based diets. Back then, people [88:02] like the Beatles were all into it, [88:04] which eventually turned into this [88:06] plant-based dietary culture. So, I’m [88:09] talking about the data from CCTV’s [88:11] survey today. Do you think humanity [88:14] will change in the future? It will [88:17] become more and more about raw [88:19] ingredients, and I really feel that if [88:21] you take China, for example, what would [88:23] it be like without sauces? What will [88:26] our future food look like? [88:28] This itself is a more advanced way of [88:30] consuming food. Originally, we were all [88:34] living like primitive people. [88:37] Making sauces into soups is an [88:38] advancement, right? From the beginning [88:42] of making meat sauces until now, it has [88:43] been a progress. As for why industrial [88:47] sauces or jarred sauces are more common [88:49] now, it's actually because they are [88:51] easier to standardize. Hmm. [88:56] Moreover, it maintains health, contains [88:58] rich flavors, and is especially [89:00] suitable for people today who don't [89:02] want to cook—what I call a " [89:04] post-seasoning system." [89:08] Oh. [89:09] It means when something arrives, I use [89:11] it as a "post-seasoning system." You [89:15] see, in our most primitive food systems [89:17] , the most underdeveloped regions all [89:19] have this. For example, in Yunnan, they [89:26] have various plant-based fruits mashed [89:28] together, like tree tomatoes and chili [89:30] peppers mixed in. Then it becomes a dip [89:35] ; we can just take some rice and eat it [89:37] with that. It’s delicious, no [89:40] problems at all. Cooking a piece of [89:42] chicken and putting it in is also very [89:44] tasty. If it lacks a sour kick, just [89:46] grab some ants from a tree. The Jino [89:48] people eat ants. We once filmed a great [89:50] segment on this because the UN Food and [89:52] Agriculture Organization is calling on [89:54] everyone to eat more insects. [89:57] Right, eat more ants. [89:59] Yes, it is... [90:03] From the perspective of gas emissions, [90:05] it is the safest way to be low-carbon [90:07] and nutritious; it is particularly rich [90:09] in protein. [90:12] And furthermore... [90:14] The small golden ants, the transparent [90:16] ones—the taste is amazing. I stood by [90:19] the tree and ate them for over half an [90:21] hour, but our show is only half an hour [90:23] . [90:24] I just wiped out a nest a few days ago. [90:27] Golden ants, golden ants, but actually, [90:29] the types of ants are still quite... [90:30] Eating them one by one. [90:32] Eating them one by one. [90:33] Oh. [90:34] Can't see that thing. I thought this [90:37] was over, but to my surprise, when I [90:39] went there... [90:41] It was completely new. [90:44] A really delicious kind of flavor. The [90:49] scent and texture are entirely [90:51] different, so he gave it the name " [90:52] non-linear memory." [90:54] I just drank some the other day; oh, it [90:56] was truly wonderful. [90:58] Oh my, oh my, just listening to it [91:00] makes my mouth water. Is Chinese [91:04] culture particularly good at blending [91:06] things? [91:08] What do you mean? [91:09] What do you mean? [91:10] Or rather, [91:11] changing its nature. Like kiln-fired [91:15] porcelain—that mysterious [91:16] transformation where you never know [91:18] what it will become. Take papermaking, [91:21] which we’ve filmed; it starts as [91:23] bamboo. Look at how the Chinese [91:28] invented papermaking—they process it [91:30] until its physical properties change [91:31] into something else entirely; you can't [91:33] even tell it’s related to bamboo. I [91:38] think in terms of food... [91:40] This is where our wisdom lies. Because [91:44] regarding the Four Great Inventions, I [91:46] think tofu should be included. The [91:51] Chinese history of eating beans is very [91:53] long, but we’ve never been able to [91:55] fully absorb their nutrients. [91:59] It’s quite illogical. The last [92:02] sentence of his final article, [92:04] just before he was to be beheaded, [92:06] he wrote an article, and the last [92:08] sentence was, "Chinese tofu is the most [92:10] delicious thing in the world." [92:11] And then, Jin Shengtan's last words [92:13] were also about how tofu and peanuts [92:15] eaten together taste like ham. Yes, [92:17] right before his execution. [92:20] Tofu is truly magnificent; it [92:22] eliminates the anti-nutritional [92:24] substances in soybeans that prevent us [92:26] from absorbing them. [92:29] Oh. [92:30] We spent over 1,000, 2,000, even 3,000 [92:32] years eating beans without fully [92:34] understanding them, until the Han [92:36] Dynasty when, while refining alchemy, [92:39] we accidentally...discovered the method [92:41] for making tofu. Another thousand years [92:44] passed until the Song Dynasty. It [92:47] finally became a staple on our tables; [92:49] it had become a different substance. It [92:52] was no longer just a bean; it was tofu. [92:55] I might have to recommend a new book [92:57] called "Jun Xing Shi." [92:59] Hmm. " [93:01] Jun Xing Shi" is... [93:04] It's what was inscribed on the bottom [93:06] of the bowls in the Mawangdui Han tomb, [93:08] meaning "Thank you for coming, please [93:10] help yourself."" [93:13] Jun" as in gentleman, "Xing" as in [93:15] favor. It’s about eating. [93:18] The book provides extensive evidence [93:20] that many current Western cooking [93:22] methods, including French cuisine, [93:23] existed in ancient China. Even [93:26] molecular gastronomy—stuffed tofu is [93:28] essentially molecular gastronomy. [93:30] Why is that? [93:33] He deep-fries a whole block of tofu, [93:35] then adds a kind of alkaline acidic [93:37] liquid to it. The inside of the tofu is [93:42] hollowed out. It becomes a pouch; it [93:46] still looks like tofu from the outside, [93:48] but it’s all liquid inside. It’s no [93:52] longer tofu, and there are many [93:53] examples like this. Why do the Chinese [93:56] call it "caiyao"(dishes)? If you look [94:00] at the hexagrams in the I Ching, it’s [94:01] a process of complete transformation. [94:05] Oh. [94:06] The ingredient is the starting point, [94:08] and the dish is the destination. [94:12] And the chef is the ferryman crossing [94:14] that river. [94:17] Wow, that is well put. That’s why the [94:20] Chinese like to use the term "entering [94:22] the realm of transformation." [94:23] Reaching a divine state of [94:25] transformation. We seem to be quite [94:26] skilled at taking one thing and [94:28] transforming it into another. It’s [94:30] not theoretical science, but [94:31] experimental science, like this with [94:33] tofu. Even articles and films about [94:37] Noma mention that it has an Eastern [94:38] sensibility, which is why Noma later [94:40] created pop-up restaurants. [94:43] He went to Japan and stayed for a long [94:45] time. [94:45] He did it twice, for six months each [94:47] time. [94:48] Right. [94:49] But when you talk about things like [94:51] pan-frying, stir-frying, and [94:52] deep-frying today... [94:56] As you mentioned, there’s been a lot [94:58] of discussion recently about pre-made [95:00] meals, and someone told me that [95:01] wherever you eat now, most of what [95:03] you're served is pre-made. [95:07] It's all the same. [95:08] Is that so? [95:10] That’s determined by the commercial [95:12] nature of the restaurant industry, but [95:13] my view on pre-made meals is different [95:15] from yours; it’s not something to be [95:17] feared. Wait, please define them first, [95:21] as I’ve only heard about this issue. [95:24] We categorize pre-made meals into three [95:26] types. [95:28] One is "easy to eat," meaning you eat [95:30] it directly. One is "easy to heat," [95:34] meaning you just heat it up. [95:37] And the third is "easy to cook." [95:40] If you really reject pre-made meals, [95:42] why do you eat salted duck eggs or ham? [95:44] These are all pre-made. Hmm. [95:47] You can’t just dismiss all pre-made [95:49] meals out of hand; first, you have to [95:51] categorize them. Second, pre-made meals [95:55] aren't all bad. It’s true that there [95:59] is definitely a loss in flavor. Hmm. [96:04] But we have to say that pre-made meals [96:06] have advantages in terms of scientific [96:08] nutritional ratios and avoiding long [96:10] periods of deep-frying during the [96:12] preparation process. [96:17] But what about additives? [96:19] And preservatives? [96:22] So the topic of pre-made meals isn't [96:24] really about cooking or catering; [96:25] it’s a topic about trust. It's a [96:30] matter of national health and hygiene. [96:32] Who is in control of these pre-made [96:34] meals? For example, nowadays, when we [96:36] go to a restaurant and order a dish [96:38] like twice-cooked pork or red-braised [96:40] pork, are these considered pre-prepared [96:42] ingredients? [96:44] Red-braised pork is more likely. [96:46] There’s no twice-cooked pork that [96:48] isn't pre-processed, because you have [96:50] to boil it first. They can't wait for [96:52] you to arrive and then start boiling [96:53] the meat. [96:54] But, but as long as it's stir-fried on [96:56] the spot, it doesn't count. Right, [96:58] that’s just the heating process. [97:00] This is something Chinese people are [97:02] very particular about, called "wok hei. [97:04] " [97:06] Yes. [97:07] In Cantonese, you call it... [97:08] I can say "wok hei," yes, "wok hei." [97:13] Teacher Chen described this the most [97:15] vividly. He said, what is this "wok hei [97:18] "? "Wok hei" is like when you used to [97:20] cook a chicken to offer to your [97:21] ancestors. [97:23] How would your ancestors eat it? It’s [97:25] when the steam is still rising—there [97:26] are spirits three feet above your head. [97:28] Mm. [97:29] They eat it right then and there; [97:31] that’s "wok hei." I think that’s [97:34] great. Take, for example, that Hunan [97:36] chili stir-fried pork chain that we all [97:39] know, with so many stores nationwide. I [97:41] think this young person is very smart. [97:44] He monetized the "wok hei" of the [97:46] Hunanese people. [97:47] Mm. [97:47] Mm. Mm. [97:49] In this restaurant, I can lack anything [97:51] else, but I must have a chef who [97:53] stir-fries the chili pork. I measure [97:59] how far you are from where it's made, [98:00] and I bring this piping hot chili pork [98:02] to you, then open a rice cooker, [98:04] letting you eat it fresh and hot. [98:09] The shortest distance and time from the [98:11] wok to the mouth. [98:12] So, this doesn't count as pre-prepared [98:14] food. So, would you say it's [98:16] pre-prepared food? If they have [98:20] bulk-processed items, it's "easy to [98:22] cooking," but if it's fresh meat, then [98:24] it doesn't have that; it’s selling [98:26] pure "wok hei." [98:29] So, the government has now released a [98:31] standard, and they say if we follow [98:33] these strictest standards, in the [98:35] future, pre-prepared food won't be a [98:37] monster, but might even be widely [98:38] welcomed. But their definition doesn't [98:42] even include central kitchen dishes as [98:44] pre-prepared food, according to this [98:46] strict definition. [98:48] And they mention preservatives—they [98:50] can't be added. They say, but there’s [98:52] actually a problem, which is... [98:55] Uh, are you willing to pay a higher [98:56] price to buy this pre-prepared food? [98:59] Because this involves things like cold [99:01] chain. [99:02] Mm. [99:03] Cold chain management all the way to [99:05] your home. It must be kept at a low [99:08] temperature at a certain degree for [99:09] sterilization. Yes, if you don't add [99:13] preservatives, you have to use other [99:15] means for disinfection or anti-spoilage [99:17] , but that requires investing in a lot [99:19] of equipment and guarantees. [99:21] So, in that case, when we talk about [99:23] the mid-range market, would you accept [99:25] a dish like twice-cooked pork costing [99:27] 70 or 80 yuan? Is there an issue with [99:29] that? [99:31] Isn't the advantage of pre-made dishes [99:33] that they are expensive, fresh, and [99:35] full of flavor? [99:37] Full of flavor. [99:39] You've gone through a freezing process. [99:42] I mentioned on my show last time that I [99:44] ate Dongpo pork that had been frozen [99:45] for three months. This is the aviation [99:49] standard, the highest standard in [99:51] cold-chain transport, a standard where [99:53] absolutely no errors are allowed. [99:58] It’s like, I’ll give you the [99:59] freshest; three months, just three [100:01] months, that’s as fresh as it gets, [100:03] because during the freezing process, [100:05] they have to keep testing for bacteria. [100:08] Yeah. [100:09] Constantly being spot-checked. Then you [100:12] say it tastes good. That might be a [100:15] whole other topic. [100:22] Think about a Dongpo pork knuckle; you [100:24] pick it up with chopsticks, and you see [100:26] it jiggling even when you aren't [100:27] touching it. He can turn eating into an [100:36] aesthetics lesson. [100:40] I think I just saw that meat in his [100:42] hands earlier. You. [100:43] Watch it move. [100:46] Pre-made doesn't equate to standardized [100:48] , uniform flavor. [100:53] Because my concept isn't clear, [100:55] actually, all pre-made dishes are just [100:57] components. In reality, there are many [101:01] sub-categories accompanying these [101:02] pre-made dishes now. The sauce might be [101:05] an entirely different system. [101:07] It also includes fresh ingredients, [101:09] like chopped green onions. For example, [101:13] in the Jiangnan region, they use garlic [101:15] sprouts for seasoning, and they must be [101:17] the tender, delicate kind. That is [101:21] actually extremely difficult. [101:23] Yeah. [101:26] If a restaurant still has to consider [101:27] costs, and if they all use those garlic [101:29] sprouts from wholesale markets [101:31] delivered by big trucks, they have no [101:33] flavor. [101:35] Also, do pre-made dishes make people [101:37] feel like you're being lazy? I mean, [101:40] why are we so averse to it? It's just [101:42] that I don't like you, right. I feel [101:45] that your respect for food lies in the [101:47] cooking process, but if you shorten [101:49] this process and make it very quick, I [101:50] feel you don't respect the food enough, [101:52] or you don't respect me, so I think [101:54] you're being lazy. You know, when I [101:57] think of pre-made food, I think of [101:59] being a mom; when I went to Finland, [102:00] the weaning stage for my first child at [102:02] six months was done in Hong Kong, and [102:04] let me tell you, I was mashing [102:06] strawberries every day, right? And [102:07] everything was blended into a puree, [102:09] right? Everything was pre-made by me; [102:12] I'd grind it into little ice cubes, put [102:14] them in the freezer, and then take them [102:16] out to heat up when needed, right? I [102:19] even made things like fresh-pressed [102:21] tofu or other fresh items on the spot. [102:23] I prepared every single meal myself, [102:24] and I even had to think about the [102:26] ingredients and everything. After [102:28] arriving in Finland, I noticed all the [102:30] parents around me were just buying [102:32] canned baby food from the supermarket, [102:34] like jars of food. [102:35] I saw the glass jars and said, "There [102:37] must be preservatives in these," but [102:38] they said, "No, it's canned, so it must [102:40] have preservatives." They said, "No, it [102:42] doesn't." [102:43] Absolutely impossible. [102:44] None at all. Even the hospital nurses [102:47] told me, "Mom, don't work so hard, just [102:49] buy it from the supermarket." [102:52] Exactly. The nutrition is actually more [102:55] balanced because they've already [102:56] processed it for you; it's better to [102:58] raise your child with ease than to [103:00] spend two hours in the kitchen making [103:01] puree for them. [103:03] You should spend those two hours [103:05] interacting with your baby, holding [103:07] them, or even taking a break yourself; [103:08] just feed them the pre-made stuff, and [103:10] they will grow up just fine. [103:12] Ah. [103:13] It instantly eliminated all my guilt. [103:15] Oh. [103:16] Then I realized, wow, okay, I'll switch [103:18] . But I thought it was absolutely [103:22] impossible—for a baby, that's [103:23] impossible—it would be a crime, [103:25] surely that can't be okay. [103:28] Hmm. [103:30] However, I do have some concerns about [103:32] food that is ground by hand. Like, [103:35] could there be contamination during the [103:37] preparation process? [103:39] Hey, is it really clean? You say it's [103:41] something I made myself. [103:43] Right. [103:43] It might actually be harmful. You know [103:45] what I mean? Even in that process, [103:48] because baby food requires [103:50] pasteurization, like at 40 degrees [103:52] Celsius... [103:54] Then. [103:56] Did you complete that whole process [103:58] thoroughly? That's very difficult. When [104:06] we tell stories, we say things like, " [104:09] It's engraved in our hearts," or "It [104:11] carries the traditions of our ancestors [104:13] and the warmth of my hands," passing it [104:15] on to the next person. But is "handmade [104:21] " really good? [104:23] Hands are full of bacteria. [104:26] I'll give you an example: national [104:28] standard rapeseed oil. [104:31] Hmm. [104:33] Versus rapeseed oil you press by hand [104:35] at home. I'm not saying which one is [104:40] better. I'm saying from a safety [104:45] perspective, handmade rapeseed oil [104:47] contains a large amount of—I think [104:49] it's called erucic acid? I can't quite [104:57] explain the chemistry, but it has many [104:59] elements that aren't good for us or can [105:00] be harmful to our bodies. Hmm. [105:07] We are all obsessed with, for example, [105:09] extra virgin olive oil from Spain or [105:11] Italy. [105:15] It is truly additive-free, filtered [105:17] very little, and has a very rich flavor [105:19] , but it comes with risks. We never [105:24] warn people about these artisanal risks [105:26] . [105:28] Because you’ve put in so much effort, [105:29] how could I have the heart to bring [105:31] them up? Yet, we will point out [105:33] industrial ones that have passed many [105:35] standards, [105:36] those produced under strict standards. [105:39] But personally, I prefer the handmade [105:41] ones because the flavor is punchy. [105:45] Especially that mustard-like note. We [105:48] eat raw rapeseed oil, and it's [105:50] incredibly delicious if it's within [105:52] five days. I like it. A famous Beijing [105:56] restaurant you’ve also eaten at, [105:59] they press fresh peanut oil every five [106:01] days. That way, the freshest flavor of [106:04] the peanut oil is preserved without [106:06] oxidation. [106:06] People in Hunan must use tea seed oil [106:08] when stir-frying meat. Every year [106:11] during the tea seed harvest, every [106:13] family stores some in the fridge, but [106:15] it will eventually oxidize. Sometimes [106:18] in this world, you have to compromise; [106:20] it’s impossible to have it all. You [106:23] can’t say you want both perfect [106:25] safety and enough flavor—it really [106:27] doesn't exist. This is the change, and [106:30] you know where the contradiction in [106:32] this world lies. [106:34] Industrial standards don't necessarily [106:36] mean unhygienic or unhealthy, right? [106:40] And the artisanal flavors we cherish so [106:42] much don't necessarily mean they are [106:44] hygienic or healthy. Yes.