你每天吃的减脂餐，正在点火！66万人研究证实：死亡风险暴增29%！#窦文涛 #梁文道 #圆桌派 #养老 #养老院 #健康 #养生

减脂餐暗藏健康风险：66万人研究证实死亡风险暴增29% 节目围绕现代人的饮食焦虑与食物文明展开深入漫谈。窦文涛分享了自己为了上镜而依赖“白人饭”节食的职业神经官能症，嘉宾们进而剖析了清淡轻食背后的心理建构与匮乏年代的饮食记忆。随后，话题从陈晓卿记录的半块烧饼爱情誓言与失意影视编剧的牛骨面馆，一路延伸至哥本哈根顶级餐厅Noma对发酵、蚁酸与食材本味的探索，反思了人类从果腹求生到感官审美演进的时代变迁。 《舌尖上的中国》收视数据表明，受长期历史饥饿记忆影响，富含油脂的肉类与主食碳水结合的高能食物（如肉夹馍）长期居于国人饮食渴望榜首。 (8:34) 现代先锋餐饮通过发酵工艺与天然蚁酸等生物酸提取，重新定义了食物“生与熟”的边界，打破以加热为核心的传统烹饪逻辑。 (24:36) 全球顶级餐厅Noma宣布闭店揭示出精致餐饮的商业困局：科研所式的运作模式与极度苛求食材导致的浪费，使其在商业与环保伦理上难以持续维系。 (29:33) 文化创作者被迫转行餐饮业反映出时代内容生态的转变，传统影视剧作手艺正被KPI与ROI主导的即时“情绪价值”消费彻底重构。 (17:23)

The program explores how modern dining oscillates between utilitarian discipline and cultural expression, tracing how eating habits reflect historical trauma, sensory experimentation, and the tension between industrial standardization and artisanal craft. Through personal anecdotes and cultural analysis, the panel argues that food remains a vital repository of human intimacy and memory that resists complete technological reduction. Ascetic Regimens, Scarcity, and Emotional Sustenance (0:00) Dou Wentao and the panel examine restrictive eating habits like "white people food" and minimalist salads, which modern urbanites adopt for physical maintenance and self-discipline, noting how sensory deprivation reframes plain greens into psychological rewards. However, Dou and Chen Xiaoqing contrast this deliberate restraint with historical Chinese dietary instincts shaped by persistent hunger, where biological survival precluded negative feedback loops. Audience engagement data from the documentary series A Bite of China revealed that domestic viewers overwhelmingly crave energy-dense staples—specifically animal fats, rich carbohydrates, and savory meat wrapped inside starch. Xu Zidong and Chen Xiaoqing emphasize that in cultures shaped by material deprivation, sharing food represents the supreme ethical declaration of affection. Xu cites Zhang Xianliang’s novel Half of Man Is Woman, where offering a white steamed bun functions as a profound commitment, while Chen recounts his father dividing a scarce sesame flatbread in 1960 to court his mother. For older generations, dining transcended caloric transactions to become an enduring social ritual and emotional pact. Fermentation, Gastronomy, and Expanding Sensory Aesthetics (22:54) Drawing on Mark Chao’s visit to Noma in Copenhagen, the panel analyzes how avant-garde gastronomy treats microbial fermentation as humanity's second great culinary leap after the control of fire. By incorporating aged meats, wild yeasts, kombucha cultures, and natural formic acid extracted from ants, contemporary fine dining blurs the rigid boundary between raw and cooked. Chao describes this experience as moving across a temporal rather than spatial axis, where independent flavors unfold sequentially on the palate without collapsing into a uniform paste. The speakers connect this modern experimentation to traditional alchemical arts and ancient Chinese techniques, such as the accidental Han Dynasty discovery of tofu coagulation and Sichuan pocket tofu, where chemical reactions liquefy solid curds within an intact crust. While Dou Wentao observes that philosophizing over micro-sensory details reflects the apex of Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, the panel notes that hyper-refined gastronomy faces severe structural limitations: Noma's closure highlights how intensive research laboratories and high ingredient wastage clash with long-term financial and ecological viability. Pre-Made Industrialization Versus Living Culinary Craft (40:32) The panel assesses the economic and sensory debates surrounding pre-made dishes (yuzhicai). Zhou Yijun notes that industrial food processing offers standardized pasteurization, safety, and relief from domestic guilt—as seen with commercially balanced infant purées in Finland—yet diners often harbor a psychological aversion, equating factory shortcuts with a lack of artisanal respect. Furthermore, the hosts explain that preservative-free pre-made meals require expensive aviation-grade cold chains that inflate consumer costs, while thawed proteins inevitably lose the gelatinous texture of fresh braises. Crucially, mass-produced meals struggle to replicate wok hei ("the breath of the wok"), an ephemeral vapor generated between roaring flame and table. Under commercial management models, corporate chains intentionally eliminate expensive master chefs in favor of standard operating procedures and low-wage assemblers to maintain scalability. The panel acknowledges that while this democratization lowers dining costs, it fundamentally imperils the living craft and livelihoods of traditional cooks. Mechanical Reproduction, Aura, and Active Pessimism (56:26) Linking culinary homogenization to broader cultural alienation, the panel references Frankfurt School theorist Walter Benjamin’s critique of mass culture: mechanical reproduction strips away the unique presence, distance, and reverence—the aura—of artisanal work. As algorithms, artificial intelligence, and return-on-investment metrics incentivize creators and chefs to market commodified versions of themselves, unstandardized human craftsmanship is increasingly displaced. In response, Chen Xiaoqing outlines his production philosophy of being an "active pessimist" (likened to the spirit of Lu Xun), recognizing that macroeconomic forces cannot be halted by individuals, yet resolving to document and preserve fading culinary traditions anyway. Dou Wentao and the panel conclude that while technical enhancements like MSG are valid scientific tools, they cannot replicate slowly simmered broths, noting that vivid memories of rain-soaked street stalls and late-night noodle plates remain indelible long after sterile luxury banquets fade. The discussion leaves unresolved whether consumer fatigue with sterile mass production will eventually spark a revival of artisanal, family-run kitchens, warning that if industrial homogenization outpaces cultural transmission, centuries of intuitive culinary knowledge risk permanent loss.

[0:00] 窦文涛: 白人饭 [0:00] 窦文涛: 生命体征维持餐 [0:00] 保护生产资料 [13:07] 许子东: 以后我吃啥，你吃啥 [13:07] 窦文涛: 吃着吃着就老了 [17:23] 最重要的是，我感觉我跟这个时代不合拍了 [17:23] 现在的人不需要故事，只需要情绪价值 [20:20] 我劝你少喝茅台……你喝了茅台，你喝醉了，你跟别人说了 [26:48] 赵又廷: 几个独立的灵魂在口中，但是它们配合得很好，互不抢戏

[0:00] I’ve been eating this meal for the [0:02] last two days. This meal, I’m sure [0:04] Teacher Chen knows it. [0:06] It’s called "white people food," but [0:08] some say the name is a bit [0:10] discriminatory, so they renamed it " [0:12] physiological indicator 13," look at [0:14] the next one. [0:15] The "won't-die meal," keeps you from [0:17] dying. [0:19] I’ve adopted this approach because I [0:21] gain weight too easily, really, if I [0:23] eat just one meal. The next day, you [0:26] know? My face looks wider in the mirror [0:30] . Uh, it’s just [0:33] water retention. [0:34] One or two millimeters. [0:36] Yeah. [0:36] I drew two lines on my mirror. [0:39] I stand at that fixed spot, and if I— [0:41] hey, last night you treated me to a big [0:43] meal, I can see it right away. [0:47] You could live-stream this project [0:48] later. [0:51] Guess how much I ate yesterday. Yeah, I [0:54] just find it too hard, because I’m [0:56] still...when I’m not filming, I’m [0:58] just a fatty. [0:59] Yeah. [0:59] But I film, and I think everyone likes [1:01] to look good, right? [1:02] Protecting the means of production. [1:03] Right. [1:04] Protecting the means of production. [1:05] And honestly, I have a psychological, [1:07] professional [1:08] feeling that I'm too fat, and I get [1:10] this disgusted mood, I don't know why, [1:12] when I'm really fat, I don't want to [1:14] talk to anyone while hosting the show, [1:16] I just feel annoyed, you know? [1:19] What does "sacrificing for art" mean? [1:23] It means fasting before a show, or [1:25] rather, not fasting, just starving. [1:29] Someone like me, who gains weight [1:31] immediately, loses those two [1:33] millimeters after starving for two days [1:35] . [1:35] It’s obvious, so in my daily life, I [1:37] just eat this grass, yeah. [1:39] Just eat this grass. [1:40] Is it tasty? [1:41] Uh. [1:41] Is it tasty? [1:43] That’s also a very interesting [1:44] question. "Tasty," that word "tasty" is [1:47] a definition. [1:48] This question. [1:49] So your brain tells you that this stuff [1:51] is good for your body. So that’s also [1:54] a kind of "tasty." [1:56] Let me tell you why it’s interesting. [1:57] The first day you eat it, of course [1:59] it’s not tasty. But people are always [2:02] choosing the best among the bad options [2:03] , I’ve decided to eat this for the [2:05] whole week. And I even eat just one [2:08] meal a day; you have your big greasy, [2:11] meaty meal, and I have this one. [2:14] And when it gets to that point, you [2:16] know? The next morning, when you wake [2:18] up, the first thing you think is, "Oh, [2:20] I can have that salad again." It has [2:23] avocado, a boiled egg—well, it does [2:25] have an egg—and some chicken breast. [2:28] Most importantly, it comes with the [2:30] sesame sauce dressing I require. I must [2:32] have that sesame dressing; one time [2:34] they gave me vinegar instead and I was [2:36] so annoyed. This sesame dressing, oh, I [2:39] feel like...but they say it’s the [2:41] healthiest now. In Finland, I had a [2:44] friend who went there for an interview [2:46] for a Finnish government event. I told [2:49] him, "Let me treat you to some Finnish [2:51] food, or I can take you out for Chinese [2:53] food." He said, "No, Youtian, I [2:55] genuinely love the meals they provide [2:57] for us." I asked, "What do they give [2:59] you?" I could probably guess; the Finns [3:01] don't have much to offer, just salmon, [3:03] potatoes, and the like. [3:04] The most important part is the lettuce. [3:07] Then he said, "I’m happy just eating [3:09] lettuce." He said, "It’s the first [3:12] time I’ve known what truly fresh [3:13] vegetables taste like, the flavor of [3:15] each individual vegetable, and what [3:17] they taste like when combined." So he [3:19] tries them every day, really opening up [3:21] his palate. [3:22] It’s because of this. [3:23] And then he started loving "eating [3:24] grass." [3:25] Right, it’s exactly because of this. [3:27] Suppose you were put in a prison in a [3:28] certain country. If that prison [3:30] mandates this kind of "healthy meal." [3:32] You would eventually find it delicious. [3:34] You would find it delicious, and [3:36] you’d crave it every day. But people [3:38] nowadays just box themselves in like [3:40] this. That’s why I said when you [3:45] write books and talk about Schopenhauer [3:47] , I find that some cultural researchers [3:48] would say this is actually a kind of [3:50] self-imposed, how should I put it? A [3:55] sense of security, people just wall [3:57] themselves in. Even look at physical [3:59] fitness, like Jiahui, an urban [4:01] white-collar worker. Look at Professor [4:05] Chen, you don't really look like the [4:06] people you see at the entrance of your [4:08] company. [4:10] Don't you—you must have given this [4:12] some thought. It really comes down to [4:15] what eating means to us. [4:17] Hmm. [4:22] If eating is just for survival, to keep [4:24] you alive, I think it’s like two [4:25] people getting married just to [4:27] procreate. In reality, when two people [4:34] are together, there are other factors [4:36] related to your physiological and [4:38] psychological needs. It’s not just [4:41] about producing offspring. When you two [4:44] are together, there can be many [4:46] beautiful things. [4:47] There have to be other forms of [4:49] entertainment. [4:49] Exactly that. Food might be the same [4:54] way; if it's just for survival, the [4:57] experience feels a bit more serious. [5:02] It’s like being told to hurry up and [5:04] have another child, [5:06] to complete a task. Right, [5:08] but what do I get out of it myself? I [5:12] think this is extremely important. [5:17] Let’s talk about the main topic. [5:23] Uh, if my son likes sour strawberries, [5:25] that’s actually our definition or [5:27] interpretation of him. It’s an [5:29] interpretive system. What I express and [5:32] what you express might not be the same [5:34] thing, even though we are both eating. [5:38] But, for me, eating not only satisfies [5:40] my physiological and taste needs, but [5:43] it also meets my psychological needs. [5:48] Through eating, I can perhaps [5:49] understand this world a bit more deeply [5:51] . If I were his friend from Finland in [5:57] Washington, I might think, "Oh, so [5:59] people living with four seasons are [6:00] different from us, especially in spring [6:02] and autumn; it's not something you see [6:04] often." [6:10] He might realize something else: that [6:12] through eating, through the produce in [6:14] the supermarket, and through one's own [6:16] dining table, you can understand so [6:18] much more. It makes me feel more [6:22] fulfilled. Even if I'm just eating [6:24] plain rice. [6:26] Mm. [6:27] I still try to make it slightly [6:28] seasonal. For instance, I might pair it [6:31] with wild rice stems. [6:32] Oh. Wild rice stems, they have a hint [6:35] of sweetness, right? They not only have [6:38] a hint of sweetness, but you basically [6:39] don't need to add oil. You just let [6:43] them simmer slowly in the pan, using [6:45] chopsticks to turn them until they're [6:46] cooked, and you'll know that flavor. Oh [6:50] , this means it's the time of Grain [6:52] Buds, or perhaps Grain in Ear. You can [6:54] feel the earth turning; it's wonderful, [6:57] truly wonderful. Besides, having lived [7:00] in Northern Europe for a long time, [7:02] although I still miss Asian food—like [7:04] spicy soup or strong flavors—I have [7:06] to admit, I don't know if I convinced [7:08] myself or what, but after two days of [7:10] eating that when I'm back, I start to [7:12] miss the... [7:15] the food without sauces, because you [7:16] suddenly realize your tongue [7:20] can distinguish what is artificial [7:22] flavor. Mm. [7:24] Sauces are easy; I feel that's our [7:26] essence. Taiwan is the same—take [7:28] street food, for example. We find that [7:31] if you remove the sauce, you realize [7:32] you didn't love that food as much as [7:34] you thought. So our family always has a [7:37] bottle of chili sauce supplied by my [7:38] in-laws in Taiwan, because when my [7:40] husband eats it, he thinks of his [7:42] childhood, right? It connects to a lot [7:44] of memories, and to put it bluntly, if [7:46] you add that to anything, they'll find [7:48] it delicious. [7:50] They don't even care; you could put [7:51] chili sauce on a mung bean pastry, and [7:53] they'd probably find it perfectly [7:55] edible. [7:55] Adding ketchup works too, for kids. [7:58] It’s just like some children who [7:59] always eat ketchup, so I realized that [8:01] sauces control a lot of things. But if [8:03] you go to Finland and strip away the [8:05] sauces, you are half-forced to [8:06] appreciate the flavor the food is [8:08] supposed to have. [8:10] But if you look at it from another [8:12] angle, some say sauces are an extension [8:14] of civilization. [8:15] Right. [8:16] True, the raw, natural things are [8:18] delicious. [8:19] We were also trained by sauces later on [8:21] . The tongue couldn't tell the [8:23] difference, but later it was trained [8:25] back to be able to distinguish. But [8:27] sauces themselves are an accumulation [8:29] of civilization. [8:34] Eating something and adding salty or [8:36] sweet flavors, and food always has " [8:38] affect" or emotion attached to it, so [8:40] for example, You-ting mentioned [8:42] strawberries. Speaking of which, how [8:47] many does your child eat? [8:48] 500 grams. 500 grams. [8:51] 500 grams is about a catty. [8:53] While listening, it wasn't your child's [8:55] image that appeared in my mind, but my [8:56] own childhood. Because when we were [8:59] kids, strawberries...how old were you [9:01] when you started eating strawberries? I [9:04] was probably seven or eight, they were [9:06] expensive in Hong Kong. [9:08] So when we bought them home, we’d buy [9:10] just two or three. Ten people would [9:13] share them. It's no exaggeration, we'd [9:15] basically take one strawberry. I'd take [9:18] a bite, then it was your turn to take a [9:20] bite, taking turns biting. [9:22] But looking back, of course, I think, [9:24] oh, it was very warm and cozy, we [9:26] enjoyed it together. But that was when [9:32] economic conditions were worse, so as I [9:34] listened to your child's story, my mind [9:36] went to that, so now I can't help but [9:37] ...Have a bit of nostalgia. [9:42] But actually, I think what You-ting [9:44] brought up is really a philosophical [9:45] question. Hmm. [9:47] It's about the original, authentic [9:48] flavor. That's why people call it " [9:51] white people food," though some say we [9:53] shouldn't call it that. It reflects [9:55] something—now it's the Chinese who [9:57] have started to gaze at white people. [10:00] In the past, it was the white gaze on [10:02] Easterners, right? Now we call it " [10:04] white people food," but there does seem [10:06] to be a trend where they use less oil [10:08] and frying. [10:09] Yes. But if it's all like that, then [10:12] where is China? You have to tell us [10:15] about the sauces. And I have to provide [10:17] evidence for what you've organized; [10:19] this is data from CCTV. They have that [10:22] "A Bite of China," and they have very [10:24] precise viewership ratings—what the [10:26] audience loves most. [10:28] You say it yourself, what is the third? [10:31] The third is fatty foods, [10:34] like braised pork belly. [10:36] The second is staple foods. Like [10:39] noodles, steamed buns, [10:41] rice. [10:42] Or fried dough cakes. [10:44] Yeah. The first is staple foods wrapped [10:48] around fatty foods. [10:52] Like a meat sandwich or something. [10:54] So when you talk about changing tastes, [10:56] changing habits, you have to consider [10:58] human nature, especially our Chinese [11:00] palate. [11:00] Hmm. [11:01] How do we resolve this contradiction? [11:03] This was also cultivated bit by bit. [11:05] Hmm. [11:07] Weren't we like this from the beginning [11:09] ? [11:11] At the beginning, most of the time, in [11:13] many places, we were hungry. [11:15] True, that's right. [11:18] So I used the term "healthy negative [11:20] feedback," which we didn't have. [11:25] Actually, regarding how we eat and what [11:27] we eat, I think there are many ways to [11:29] look at it. [11:32] Right. I once met an old professor who [11:37] told me, "Xiao, you make these tempting [11:39] dishes every day; sometimes even I am [11:41] seduced by them." But I feel that [11:48] perhaps in a mature society, people [11:50] shouldn't spend so much energy on food. [11:55] I look at some developed countries; [11:56] they eat very simply, and their people [11:58] have more time to think about other [12:00] issues. So, how do we view this? For [12:09] someone like me who makes food content [12:11] my daily life, [12:17] I can even sit at a table while others [12:19] eat and not eat a thing from start to [12:20] finish. I can do that. [12:24] Don't you crave it? [12:25] I do, but with repeated training, the [12:27] craving goes away. Oh. [12:32] Yes, just like you, when I have to [12:34] record a show, a sense of [12:35] responsibility tells me to produce, but [12:37] I won't reduce how often I eat, because [12:39] eating isn't just meaningful to the [12:41] individual; it has social significance. [12:47] Eating with your family. [12:49] Are you [12:49] saying you only eat one meal a day? Yes [12:51] , I [12:52] How could you reduce it further? [12:54] I can cut out a meal, but I can sit [12:55] next to you during the second meal. [13:00] Watching you eat with the smile of a [13:02] zookeeper; look, that's high-level. [13:07] You've talked a lot about the [13:09] physiology, psychology, and aesthetics [13:11] of eating. [13:14] It reminded me of a scene from a novel [13:16] I read. [13:16] Hmm. [13:17] That book, "Half of Man Is Woman." [13:19] Hmm. [13:20] In "Half of Man Is Woman," the [13:22] protagonist, Zhang Xianliang's [13:24] character, helps a woman fix a water [13:26] tank, and she takes a liking to him. As [13:29] a result, he hands her a steamed bun; I [13:31] can almost recite that passage by heart [13:33] . [13:35] Hmm. [13:36] He says, "I've lived for over 20 years. [13:38] " It's been eight years. Since I [13:42] touched this, what's it called, this [13:44] crust. [13:46] Yeah. [13:47] It’s this very bun. What’s even [13:51] more exquisite is that he says his [13:54] fingerprints were on it, Luo Bu Si Ji. [13:58] Yeah. [13:59] There are two types of fingerprints, [14:01] right? [14:05] Exactly, Luo Bu Si Ji, and my tears [14:07] just fell right onto that bun, and the [14:10] woman said a sentence behind me: "From [14:12] now on, what I eat, you shall eat." [14:18] Yeah. [14:20] That is the Chinese version of a [14:22] Titanic declaration, "You jump, I jump. [14:24] " [14:26] For us, "What I eat, you shall eat" is [14:28] the most supreme declaration of love. [14:32] Why do I think such a detail is so [14:33] great? Now I think of what you [14:35] mentioned: the biological, [14:37] Yeah. [14:39] the psychological, [14:41] the aesthetic, and the ethical. [14:43] Right? All these levels can be pierced [14:46] by a single plot point. So, Professor [14:50] Xu, no wonder we share the same [14:52] birthday. I’m not lying to you. Look, [14:55] I was planning to read a passage from [14:57] this book on the show today, see what I [14:59] marked? Let me tell you, Professor Xiao [15:01] , I read this "Eating Until We Grow Old [15:03] " that you wrote, and I feel like what [15:05] Lu Xun said about the whole thing being [15:08] just the word "human." I finished [15:12] reading your book, and I feel the whole [15:14] thing comes down to two words; I feel [15:16] everything he writes is just so [15:18] grounded. Look, listen, let me tell you [15:23] why I say he has a tender heart beneath [15:26] a tough exterior. There’s this part [15:29] where his father loved a specific [15:30] sesame flatbread. That flatbread, he [15:33] described it as being incredibly [15:35] delicious. Then, in 1960, on his way to [15:40] visit classmates in the city, his [15:41] father went to another school to visit [15:44] someone, accompanied by a female [15:45] classmate, a fellow student from the [15:47] Dabie Mountains. Because this girl also [15:53] had a roommate at that school, they [15:55] went together as companions. It was [16:00] over ten miles between the two schools, [16:02] and their school rations couldn't [16:04] sustain the trip, so when they came [16:06] across that flatbread stand, his father [16:08] hesitated for a moment, bought one, [16:09] split it into a large and small piece, [16:11] and handed the larger one to the girl. [16:17] After quickly finishing the smaller [16:19] piece, he bit his lip and watched [16:21] silently as the girl finished hers bit [16:23] by bit. As you know, this girl later [16:27] became my mother. I almost cried when I [16:30] read that. Wouldn't you say it’s the [16:33] same idea as what you were talking [16:34] about? [16:37] I still feel sorry for his mom, being [16:39] won over by a small flatbread. [16:43] This story is actually about my son [16:45] heading off to America. [16:47] Study. Saying, "You, in the future"— [16:50] my mother, grandma, was teaching him [16:52] life lessons. [16:54] Saying, "In the future, you need to [16:56] find a girlfriend.""Don't look at [16:58] anything else.""Look for a good heart." [17:03] "She must treat you well." Only then [17:06] did I fully understand this. [17:09] So, grandma wants the son's girlfriend [17:11] to give him the larger portion, the [17:13] opposite. [17:16] If you are a mother wishing for your [17:17] son's future, you want a girlfriend who [17:19] gives the bigger share to him. Actually [17:23] , this is common; every era probably [17:25] has memories triggered by food. The [17:29] noodles I ate for lunch today, I’ve [17:31] had them before. Someone recommended [17:35] this noodle shop, saying it was [17:36] excellent. I went to eat, and I thought [17:40] the noodles were quite good, but if you [17:42] call it Chongqing-style, it’s not raw [17:44] or bold enough; it’s a bit too mild. [17:48] I asked, "Are you the ones who make [17:50] these noodles?""Who did you learn from? [17:52] " The male owner looked at me and said, [17:54] "I don't know how to cook.""I just run [17:57] the shop." I asked about the woman, "Oh [18:00] , is this your wife?" He said, "No, no, [18:04] we both have our own families.""As for [18:07] her..."" [18:08] She learned from her grandma." I said, [18:10] "Oh, let me ask." I asked, "Is your [18:13] grandma from Chongqing?" He said, "No, [18:15] she's from Guangyuan." I said, "Oh, no [18:19] wonder these noodles taste like beef [18:21] bone noodles, the Guangyuan kind, where [18:23] a beef leg is sawn into a large piece [18:25] of meat with a bone in the center. [18:28] Those are delicious." I said, "It's [18:30] even more like that." He said, "Ah, you [18:32] even know that?" He said, "It's true, [18:35] that's the kind of noodles we all eat [18:37] back home." Later, what I ordered for [18:39] lunch today was the beef bone noodles. [18:41] I said, "This isn't the simplest thing, [18:43] is it?" Later I asked, "How did you..." [18:47] "...both have families, yet you're here [18:49] running a noodle shop?" He said, "It's [18:51] not like that.""It's like this." The [18:53] two of them talked to me for over 40 [18:55] minutes. Why did they change careers? [18:58] He said, "I heard you say you filmed [19:00] about noodles before, and you seem to [19:02] work in film and television too." He [19:04] said, "I was a TV drama editor."" [19:08] Our company is failing; we just can't [19:10] keep going."" [19:14] He worked in TV promotion, and I [19:16] started this small physical business to [19:18] see if we could still make ends meet."" [19:23] Most importantly, I feel like I don't [19:25] fit into this era anymore." I listened. [19:27] I said, "Why?" You see, the [19:30] screenwriting and dramatic theory I [19:32] studied back then, it's all useless [19:34] today. I am a storyteller. [19:38] Hmm. People nowadays don't need stories [19:41] ; they need emotional value. Do you [19:43] know what emotional value is? He went [19:47] on to explain this emotional value, [19:49] then talked about KPIs, ROI, and the [19:52] demands of the modern TV industry on a [19:54] creator. He feels that now, you can [20:00] just find a pretty kid to sit there, [20:02] have everyone chat casually, and people [20:04] will watch it just like a show. All [20:09] these—The mansion that once built his [20:11] theatrical dreams is already gone. In [20:16] reality, everyone is in the wilderness. [20:20] Oh, is this just a meal? [20:26] I think the reason we go out to eat is [20:28] that you can see a world you wouldn't [20:29] normally encounter. [20:35] You meet different people, just like [20:36] the restaurant I wrote about in my book [20:38] . I like it because there's a queue, so [20:42] I prefer to go early. I listen to the [20:44] workers there sorting chili peppers. [20:47] And then they say, "Do you know what [20:48] the most delicious thing in the world [20:50] is?" You say you don't. A man says, " [20:53] Moutai." Yes, they all say Moutai is [20:56] the most delicious. Then someone asks [20:58] the man, "Have you ever had Moutai?" [21:01] He says, "I've had the leftovers from [21:03] customers." He says, "I advise against [21:06] drinking too much Moutai; it’s [21:07] something you should normally hide at [21:09] home.""You drank Moutai.""You got drunk [21:14] , then you told others." Oh my. Look at [21:17] that afternoon sun that hasn't set yet, [21:19] with a few people picking chili peppers [21:21] . Oh, I feel that this is a scene you [21:25] couldn't buy no matter how much money [21:27] you spent. [21:29] Two people say Moutai is the best. Four [21:31] , four people say Moutai is the best. [21:34] Actually, they have nothing to do with [21:36] Moutai. When they talk about Moutai, [21:38] you just think, "Wow, really." I think [21:40] this world's number one, throughout our [21:42] entire communication, once you arrive [21:44] there, he doesn't place any burden on [21:46] you at all. I think a truly confident, [21:49] top-tier restaurant is always the most [21:51] humble; it never categorizes you. So I [21:55] felt zero pressure there, no need to [21:57] worry about dressing formally, or [21:58] acting posh, or pretending to be a [22:00] connoisseur. No, they just welcome you. [22:04] I think this...because let me tell you, [22:06] we were the first to enter that gate, [22:08] the one with the reindeer antler design [22:10] . They warmly applaud to welcome you; [22:13] it’s not you applauding them, they [22:14] start applauding the moment you walk in [22:16] . [22:17] It would be absurd if you applauded [22:18] them, what guest applauds upon entering [22:20] ? [22:20] If they do well, shouldn't you do it at [22:22] the end? Yeah, that’s just how they [22:23] are. [22:24] You should only cry after you've [22:25] finished eating. [22:26] Exactly, you can't come in crying, it [22:28] looks like an inspection, right? Anyway [22:32] , this part was very relaxed, and I [22:34] tasted it. The whole process really got [22:37] me a bit emotional; the first dish was [22:39] just chicken. The way they serve it is [22:44] you eat a bit first, then they ask you [22:46] to add a sauce, then something else, [22:48] maybe three stages like that. But it... [22:52] That just means eating it with [22:53] different sauces, right? [22:54] No, no, you eat the original flavor [22:56] first, then maybe add a sauce, and [22:58] maybe another ingredient. They're just [23:00] giving you suggestions, not demanding [23:01] it. [23:03] Let me see the photos, see how good it [23:05] really is. I’ve never heard of it, [23:10] but in this specific culinary niche, [23:12] they are doing it very, very... [23:17] Well, you... [23:18] The chef has a laboratory. This is the [23:21] chicken I mentioned. Doesn't it look [23:23] quite simple? Maybe because I'm Chinese [23:25] , you look at it and think it's simple, [23:27] right? But when I tasted it, do you [23:29] know what I thought of? I’m not [23:31] saying it tasted the same, but I [23:32] thought of Hong Kong, of my favorite [23:34] soy sauce chicken rice. It felt like I [23:36] hadn't had such delicious, fatty [23:38] chicken in so long; it stirs up so many [23:40] memories. [23:40] It’s likely an aged chicken. Right, [23:44] and I found it interesting—perhaps [23:46] because I’m Asian—but for all the [23:47] foreigners next to me, the first [23:49] chicken dish was served with the whole [23:51] bird, even the chicken head. [23:54] It was placed right in front of them to [23:55] look at while they ate. We were [23:57] thinking, foreigners usually hate [23:59] seeing eyes, like fish eyes. There was [24:02] a seafood dish, though not the one I [24:03] had. I had the game bird. That layer, [24:07] the red one you see, that’s... [24:10] Kombucha, do you know it? It’s [24:12] fermented tea. [24:13] Scoby. [24:14] Scoby. [24:15] That’s terrifying. [24:17] And they took the kombucha... [24:19] Yeah, they took the culture from the [24:21] top of the kombucha, scraped it off, [24:22] and served it to you to eat. [24:24] At a certain level, you're just eating [24:26] stories. [24:27] Right. [24:27] Well, not just stories, not entirely [24:29] just stories. I’ve generally tried [24:32] foods like this, but it’s actually a [24:34] completely different sensory experience [24:36] . The key is that once you enter the [24:40] professional world of gastronomy, you [24:42] might have to rediscover the world. For [24:46] instance, the aging I just mentioned— [24:48] we used to define "cooked" as grilling, [24:50] boiling, or stir-frying over a fire, [24:53] but that’s not really it; its [24:54] greatest feature is fermentation. Right [24:58] . [25:00] Fermentation is the second greatest [25:02] human discovery after fire; before we [25:04] climbed down from the trees, we [25:06] couldn't absorb those nutrients. So how [25:10] do we define raw and cooked? This [25:13] restaurant gave us a new answer; it’s [25:15] limitless. [25:17] It has closed down now. [25:19] It’s closing soon—it’s about raw [25:21] muscle. [25:21] It’s natural fermentation. No, it’s [25:23] not just natural fermentation; this [25:25] aging process is actually quite special [25:27] . It’s very, very complex. For [25:30] example, with Spanish ham, we might [25:32] call it fermentation, but when we went [25:34] to film, they said, "No, we don't call [25:36] it fermentation, we call it aging." [25:38] Right. [25:40] Because once I call it aging, you can [25:42] eat it raw. Hmm. [25:49] My expertise isn't enough to cover it [25:51] fully, but there are indeed vast [25:52] amounts of food we can consume and [25:54] absorb through fermentation without any [25:56] harm. [26:01] Yes, it’s a type of—this restaurant [26:03] doesn't even use vinegar. [26:05] Right, they use ants instead. [26:07] Yes. [26:08] They use formic acid, which is ant acid [26:10] . [26:11] Hmm. [26:12] From ants. [26:13] So you think you’re eating ants, but [26:15] no, you’re eating the acid. [26:17] Oh my god. [26:18] But it’s just a little, and then you [26:19] ... [26:19] If you don't eat it, so be it. [26:21] No, no, the point is, I also felt that [26:23] way at first and I would frown, right? [26:25] I had two chances, and I felt the [26:27] journey was too long; I’m still a [26:29] rather lazy person. But I told myself, [26:31] just like my son eating strawberries, [26:33] you have to let go of your prejudices, [26:35] and you must—this chef respects every [26:37] single ingredient, and all his sauces, [26:39] when combined, make you feel...when I [26:41] say "delicious," I mean it never makes [26:43] you feel like they’ve blended into [26:45] one; it’s three distinct flavors. [26:48] In your mouth... [26:48] When you drink, you taste the notes, [26:50] right? You talk about the front, middle [26:52] , and finish. [26:53] Yes, that’s how I moved from layers [26:55] of space to layers of time. Hey. [26:58] Oh. [27:00] What does it mean to chew and chew [27:02] until it gets sweet, and then slowly... [27:05] It first makes your mouth contract, and [27:07] when it opens up again, all your [27:09] secretions taste sweet; it’s just [27:11] like drinking tea, truly high-end. [27:13] Right, that’s how it should be with [27:15] tea and food, that’s exactly what it [27:17] means. And even a layman like me can [27:21] understand it; I think that’s the [27:22] most impressive part—you don’t need [27:24] to be a food critic, just sit there and [27:26] follow the experience. I just want to [27:30] eat attentively, not keep chatting. I [27:32] just eat slowly and enjoy the moment, [27:34] thinking, "My goodness, there are [27:35] several independent souls in my mouth, [27:37] yet they coordinate so well, not [27:39] stealing the spotlight from each other, [27:41] as if to say we are all wonderful." But [27:44] just because I’m saying these things [27:45] here doesn’t mean I’m trying to [27:47] overshadow anyone; it’s not like that [27:48] . We can all be good together and [27:51] create something new in the mouth. I [27:53] feel like Teacher Xiaoqing has a [27:55] successor, a beautiful successor; six [27:57] or seven souls, the author must be [27:59] stunned, what a way to describe it. [28:02] He shifted the problem of space into [28:04] time. Space is just that the place is [28:07] too far away, we haven’t been there [28:09] and can’t experience it, right? [28:11] Turned it into what kind of time? We [28:13] were just talking about the problem of [28:14] not having enough to eat. [28:15] Right. He skipped the problem of hunger [28:18] and moved on to something we don’t [28:19] even know what to call. [28:22] Exactly, you know, because it’s [28:24] really Maslow’s hierarchy of needs. [28:28] Many things we talk about relate to [28:30] survival, class identity, and a sense [28:32] of security. What he’s talking about [28:37] isn’t on the same level as the food [28:39] we usually discuss; it’s aesthetic. [28:43] Exactly, it’s culinary. [28:46] From that previous topic, he suddenly [28:48] jumped to this. You know, when I heard [28:50] his description, I thought, "Is this a [28:52] crime?" Back in the day, our parents [28:54] would share a single flatbread, and [28:56] these people are making this out of it? [28:59] But you’re talking about back then; [29:00] he is talking about the present. [29:02] Besides, someone described it just like [29:05] what Youting said, about several souls [29:07] and bodies. Someone described it like [29:10] this: when the food is so good that [29:12] they’ve finished it and we have none, [29:14] we should ask them to open their mouths [29:16] and breathe out those souls. [29:18] Ah, we’d smell it and think it tastes [29:20] delicious. [29:21] Breathing out from all seven orifices. [29:23] We lean in to smell those seven souls; [29:25] as long as they don't turn into seven [29:27] bodies, it's fine. [29:29] But I think he taught me another kind [29:31] of life for food, and after I came out, [29:33] I truly started to, because Noma's [29:35] chefs have a laboratory. [29:37] Right. And let me tell you. [29:39] It’s like a religion. [29:41] Yes, the waiter—and they even [29:43] arranged a waiter from Taiwan for me— [29:45] first of all, I felt that this place [29:47] embraces everything, people from all [29:49] over the world. [29:51] Koreans, Chinese, they’re all there. [29:53] Exactly, and they explain things to you [29:55] in a language you’re familiar with. [29:57] Then he pointed to that little house [29:58] and asked, "Do you see that little [29:59] house with the dim light?" I said I did [30:01] , and he asked, "Do you see that person [30:03] ?" That should be our chef, and I [30:05] thought, "Wow, he’s in there, it’s [30:07] like a laboratory." He requires that [30:10] everything be started as much as [30:12] possible from scratch, especially [30:14] plants and herbs; he insists on growing [30:15] them from seeds because he believes [30:17] that’s the only way to know how to [30:19] use them and to truly respect the [30:21] process. Then why close down? It’s [30:25] because the process is too exhausting. [30:28] To grow things well, to make them fresh [30:30] and delicious enough for you to taste [30:32] their true flavors, is a massive [30:33] undertaking. And their wine selection [30:36] —I thought it must be incredibly [30:38] prestigious, you know, world-class. [30:41] When I asked the sommelier, he said, " [30:43] Oh, for our wine, any employee [30:45] interested in wine can just pitch where [30:46] they're going to drink in Europe, and [30:48] they'll even give them time off." [30:51] Hmm. [30:51] Go drink, go explore your own culinary [30:53] journey; it doesn't have to be fine [30:55] dining. Then come back and tell me what [30:58] you drank, bring it back, and we’ll [31:00] all taste it together. I felt that this [31:04] chef didn't have the rigid standards I [31:06] expected, but he extremely respected [31:07] everyone’s palate. [31:09] Yeah. [31:10] You know what I mean? That’s why he [31:11] was able to create things that I found [31:13] truly unique. [31:13] You could live-stream it online. [31:16] How could someone like Dong Yuhui [31:17] compare to him? Exactly. [31:19] I don’t understand that at all, mine [31:21] was also by him... [31:22] But my question is, why couldn't it [31:24] stay open? [31:25] Because it wasn't profitable. [31:28] It didn't make money. He felt that fine [31:31] dining was... [31:32] Refined cuisine. [31:33] Refined cuisine isn't eco-friendly. Hmm [31:36] . [31:37] Because think about it, you only eat [31:38] those few seeds on a strawberry, maybe [31:40] —what happens to the rest? You can [31:43] only throw them away, or if you want to [31:45] reuse them, it's too difficult, so [31:47] basically you end up discarding more [31:49] ingredients than you actually eat. [31:52] Right, as you just mentioned, this [31:53] thing has turned into a religion. In [31:57] fact, today's so-called [31:58] health-maintaining meals—some white [32:00] people even trace them back to that [32:02] hippie era in the 1960s. [32:06] Yes, it was a type of food promoted by [32:08] hippies back then. It seems there was [32:13] someone in the Western US, like a cult [32:15] leader, who learned about yoga and [32:16] spirituality. He told people that [32:21] eating meat was a sin and pushed for a [32:23] purely plant-based, whole-grain diet. [32:28] At that time, people like the Beatles [32:30] and others followed it, and that’s [32:32] how this plant-based dietary culture [32:34] emerged. So, let's talk about the [32:38] survey data from CCTV today. Do you [32:42] think humanity will change in the [32:44] future? We will move toward more and [32:47] more raw ingredients. For example, in [32:50] China, what would you do without sauces [32:52] ? What will our food become in the [32:55] future? [32:56] Sauce itself is a more advanced form of [32:59] food. In the most primitive times, we [33:01] lived like wild animals, eating raw [33:03] meat and blood. [33:06] But making sauces and soups—that was [33:08] already a step forward from simply [33:10] making meat paste. Why are there so [33:14] many industrial or jarred sauces now? [33:18] Actually, it's because they are easier [33:20] to standardize. Mhm. [33:24] And it can maintain its healthiness [33:25] while providing a richer flavor. It's [33:29] especially suited for people today who [33:31] don't want to cook—it's what we call [33:33] a "post-seasoning system." [33:36] Oh. [33:38] It means something comes along, and I [33:40] use sauce as a post-seasoning system. [33:43] If you look at our most primitive [33:45] linguistic systems, even in the most [33:46] underdeveloped regions, this exists. [33:52] For example, in Yunnan, they have [33:54] various plant stems, leaves, and fruits [33:56] pounded together with tomatoes and [33:58] chili peppers. Then you add the sauce, [34:04] grab some rice, mix it in, and wow, [34:06] it’s delicious—no problem at all. [34:09] Boil a piece of chicken and add it in, [34:11] and it's also very tasty. If it’s not [34:13] sour enough, grab some ants from a tree [34:15] . The Jino people eat ants, you know. [34:17] We once filmed a great segment on this, [34:19] because the UN Food and Agriculture [34:21] Organization has been calling on [34:22] everyone to eat more insects. [34:25] Yes, eat more ants. [34:27] Exactly, they are insects. [34:31] From the perspective of gas emissions, [34:33] this is the safest way to be low-carbon [34:35] and nutritious; they are especially [34:37] rich in protein. [34:40] And also, just... [34:42] The tiny golden ants, those transparent [34:45] golden ones, the taste is real. I stood [34:48] by the tree and ate for over half an [34:50] hour, but our show only lasts half an [34:51] hour. A few days ago, I wiped out an [34:54] entire nest. [34:55] Golden ants, golden ants, actually, [34:57] there are quite a few species of ants. [35:00] Eating them one by one, or the best way [35:02] is to catch a whole nest. [35:05] Just crush them and wrap them in banana [35:07] leaves. Each one pops with flavor. [35:10] A massacre, right? Yes, exactly, but [35:13] you can't wipe them all out. The [35:16] harmony between man and nature, it [35:18] doesn't get better than this, but our [35:20] story finished filming. [35:22] Finished collecting them all. The state [35:26] listed them as a second-class protected [35:27] species, so they were included. But in [35:32] Noma, their fermentation flavor— [35:34] actually, fermentation is the world of [35:36] bacteria, it's a completely different [35:38] world. Unlike what we call cooking, [35:43] which is all the art of water and fire. [35:46] But fermentation is not. Fermentation [35:50] is like a ghost, with all kinds of [35:52] different yeasts, lactic acid bacteria, [35:54] and so on. It treats food like piano [35:57] keys. It plays a brand new tune of its [36:00] own. [36:01] Really. [36:02] Is that controlled by humans, or is it [36:04] half-natural? [36:04] If humans could control it, this music [36:06] wouldn't exist; that would be [36:08] industrialization. You are completely [36:10] in a state of being out of control. [36:12] Just like in the craft beer scene [36:14] nowadays. [36:15] Mmm, they love drinking that one kind, [36:18] it’s called sour, right? Sour ale. [36:21] Or wild-yeast sour. You just, you have [36:24] no idea where it’s found. It could be [36:29] Canadian yeast, Icelandic yeast, or New [36:31] Zealand yeast, put into the malt wort. [36:39] And you have no idea what it will turn [36:40] into. I even heard a story this time [36:43] that really moved me. It had passed its [36:47] original fermentation time, but it had [36:49] been sealed off. [36:51] Oh. [36:53] Thinking it was gone, I figured it was [36:55] ruined, but when I went to check— [36:59] It was something completely new. [37:04] It tasted amazing, the aroma and [37:06] texture were entirely different, so he [37:08] named it "Non-linear Memory." [37:13] I just had some a few days ago, oh, it [37:15] was wonderful. [37:17] Oh my, just listening to this makes my [37:19] mouth water. Is Chinese culture [37:23] particularly good at blending? [37:27] Blending? [37:27] Blending? [37:28] Or rather, [37:31] Changing its nature, like kiln-fired [37:33] ceramics, that kiln transmutation—you [37:35] never know what it will become. Like [37:39] when we film them making paper, it [37:41] starts as bamboo. Look, look at how the [37:44] Chinese invented papermaking. They [37:48] processed it until its properties [37:49] changed entirely, turning it into [37:51] something else; you can't tell it has [37:53] anything to do with bamboo anymore. I [37:56] feel the same about food. [37:59] This is where our wisdom lies, because [38:01] if there were to be five great [38:02] inventions, I think tofu should be one [38:04] of them. Soybeans contain something [38:07] called anti-nutrients, which are [38:09] substances that prevent us from [38:10] absorbing them. It’s just that for [38:12] over 1,000, 2,000, or even 3,000 years, [38:15] we’ve been eating beans without [38:16] really understanding them. It wasn't [38:19] until the Han Dynasty, while trying to [38:21] refine elixirs, that we accidentally [38:23] discovered the method for tofu, and it [38:25] took another thousand years, until the [38:27] Song Dynasty. It truly became a staple [38:30] on our dining tables; it had become a [38:32] different substance. It was no longer [38:35] just a bean; it was tofu. I might have [38:38] to recommend a new book called "Jun [38:40] Xing." [38:41] Yeah, it " [38:45] Jun Xing Shi" comes from the [38:47] inscription at the bottom of bowls in [38:48] the Mawangdui Han tombs, meaning "thank [38:50] you for coming, please help yourself."" [38:55] Jun" as in gentleman, "Xing" as in the [38:57] surname, and the "shi" from eating. It [39:00] contains extensive research proving [39:02] that many of the cooking methods [39:04] currently used in Western fine dining, [39:06] already existed in ancient China, [39:08] including molecular gastronomy— " [39:10] pocket tofu" is molecular gastronomy. [39:13] Why is that? [39:16] It’s because they deep-fry a whole [39:17] block of tofu and then add a type of [39:19] alkaline acidic liquid. The inside of [39:23] the tofu is then hollowed out. So it [39:27] becomes a "pocket"; it still looks like [39:29] tofu when you pick it up, but the [39:30] inside has already turned to liquid. [39:33] It’s no longer tofu. Many things [39:36] Chinese people call "cai yao"—why " [39:39] yao"? If you look at the hexagrams in [39:42] the I Ching, it represents a process of [39:44] complete transformation. Oh, [39:49] the ingredients are the starting point, [39:50] and the dish is the destination. [39:55] And the chef is the ferryman crossing [39:56] that river. [39:59] My goodness, that’s so well-put. [40:01] That’s why Chinese people love to use [40:03] this phrase: "reaching a state of [40:05] perfection,"" [40:06] achieving the divine." We seem quite [40:09] adept at transforming one thing into [40:11] another. It’s not theoretical science [40:14] , but experimental science, like with [40:16] tofu. That’s why in my articles and [40:18] films about Noma, I’ve mentioned it [40:20] has an Eastern sensibility, so Noma [40:22] later even opened pop-up restaurants, [40:24] doing that— [40:26] He went to Japan and stayed for a long [40:28] time; he did it twice, six months each [40:30] time. [40:30] Right. [40:31] And yet, when you talk about current [40:33] methods, like this kind of stir-frying [40:35] and deep-frying, [40:37] Just as you said, there was a lot of [40:39] discussion recently about pre-made [40:41] dishes. Someone told me that no matter [40:44] what restaurant you go to now, most of [40:46] what you eat is pre-made. [40:49] They’re all the same. [40:50] Is that so? [40:53] It’s determined by the nature of the [40:54] restaurant business, but my view on [40:56] pre-made dishes is different from yours [40:58] ; it’s not something to be afraid of. [41:01] Let me define it first. I’ve been [41:04] hearing about this issue lately, but we [41:06] can categorize pre-made dishes into [41:08] three types. [41:09] One is "easy-to-eat," meaning you eat [41:11] it directly. What is "wok hei"(breath [41:13] of the wok)? "Wok hei" is like when you [41:15] used to cook a chicken to offer to your [41:17] ancestors. [41:18] How did your ancestors eat it? It was [41:20] while the steam was still rising. There [41:22] are spirits three feet above our heads. [41:24] Mhm. [41:25] They ate it right then and there. That [41:27] is "wok hei," and I think that’s [41:29] great. Take, for example, a famous [41:31] Hunan-style spicy stir-fried pork chain [41:34] that has opened many stores nationwide. [41:37] I think this young person is incredibly [41:38] smart. He turned the Hunan-style wok [41:41] culture into a monetization model. [41:42] Mhm. [41:43] Mhm. Mhm. [41:45] This restaurant can have nothing else, [41:47] but it must have a chef who can [41:49] stir-fry spicy pork. I care about the [41:53] distance from where you cook it to [41:55] where I am. I want to bring this piping [41:59] hot spicy pork to you, then open a rice [42:01] cooker to serve it hot. [42:05] The shortest distance and time from the [42:06] wok to your mouth. [42:08] So, this doesn't count as a pre-made [42:10] dish. But would you say it is a [42:12] pre-made dish? If they use [42:16] mass-produced items, it's " [42:17] easy-to-cooking," but if they use fresh [42:19] meat, then it’s not even that; they [42:21] are selling pure "wok hei." [42:25] So, the state has now introduced a [42:27] standard. They say that if we follow [42:29] these strict standards, pre-made dishes [42:31] will not only be harmless but might [42:33] even be widely welcomed. Yes. [42:36] But this definition doesn't even [42:38] include central kitchen dishes; they [42:39] aren't considered pre-made according to [42:41] the current strict definition. [42:43] Well. [42:45] It also says no preservatives, but [42:47] there is actually a problem with that. [42:51] Are you willing to pay a higher price [42:52] to buy these pre-made dishes? Because [42:55] this involves things like cold chain [42:57] logistics. [42:58] Mhm. [42:59] Cold chain management all the way to [43:00] your home. It must be kept at a certain [43:03] low temperature for sterilization. If [43:07] you don't add preservatives, then you [43:09] have to use other means for [43:10] disinfection or preventing spoilage, [43:12] but that requires investing in massive [43:14] amounts of equipment and guarantees. [43:17] So, in that case, regarding the [43:18] mid-range market, would you accept, for [43:20] example, seventy or eighty yuan for a [43:22] piece of braised pork belly? Is that an [43:24] issue for you? [43:26] Isn't the benefit of pre-made dishes [43:28] that they are expensive, fresh, and [43:30] full of flavor? [43:33] Full of flavor. [43:35] You've already frozen it once. Last [43:38] time I was on the show, I mentioned [43:40] eating Dongpo pork that had been frozen [43:42] for three months. This is using [43:45] aviation standards, the highest level [43:47] of cold-chain transport, a standard [43:49] where absolutely nothing can go wrong. [43:52] They claim they are giving you the [43:54] freshest product—three months, only [43:56] three months! That's considered "fresh, [44:00] " because during the freezing process, [44:01] they have to keep testing it. Mm. [44:05] Constantly sampling it. So, you're [44:07] saying it's delicious. That might be a [44:10] whole other topic. [44:19] Just imagine that pork knuckle; when [44:21] you pick it up with your chopsticks, [44:22] you look at it, you don't even need to [44:24] hold your breath, it's still trembling [44:26] —he can turn eating into an [44:27] aesthetics lesson. [44:36] No, I think I just saw the meat right [44:38] there in his hand. [44:39] It was moving. [44:41] Does "pre-made" equate to a [44:43] standardized, unified taste? [44:48] Because my concept isn't clear, are all [44:50] the flavors... [44:51] Actually, all pre-made dishes are just [44:53] components. In reality, there are many [44:56] sub-categories that go along with these [44:58] pre-made dishes. Their sauces might be [45:01] an entirely different system. [45:03] Then there are the fresh ingredients, [45:05] like chopped green onions. For example, [45:08] in the Jiangnan region, they use chives [45:10] for seasoning, or green garlic sprouts, [45:13] but they must be the tender, young [45:14] variety. That is actually very [45:17] difficult to achieve. [45:19] Mm. [45:20] And you still have restaurant costs to [45:22] consider. If it's all green garlic [45:26] sprouts shipped in by big trucks from [45:27] wholesale markets, it has no flavor. [45:31] Also, does pre-made food make people [45:33] feel like you're just being lazy? I [45:36] mean, why we are relatively repulsed is [45:38] that I don't like how you...I feel that [45:40] your respect for food comes from the [45:41] cooking process. If you shorten this [45:45] process and make it very quick, I feel [45:47] you don't respect the food enough, or [45:48] you don't respect me, so I think you're [45:50] just being lazy. You know, when I think [45:53] of pre-made dishes, I think of being a [45:55] mother. When I was in Finland, the [45:56] solid food stage for my first child— [45:58] at six months—was done in Hong Kong. [46:00] I tell you, I was mashing strawberries [46:02] every single day, right? And everything [46:04] is pureed, right? I prepped every [46:07] single bit myself—blending it, [46:09] freezing it into little cubes, storing [46:11] it in the fridge, and then heating it [46:12] up whenever needed, right? I even made [46:15] some from scratch, like grinding and [46:17] making tofu on the spot. Every single [46:19] meal was made by me, and I even had to [46:21] think about the ingredients. After [46:24] arriving in Finland, I noticed all the [46:26] moms and dads around me were buying [46:28] those canned baby foods from the [46:29] supermarket. [46:31] The ones in glass jars. I said, "This [46:33] must have preservatives, right?" They [46:34] said, "No, it's canned." I asked, "Is [46:36] it really not preserved?" They said, " [46:38] No."" [46:39] That's absolutely impossible." [46:40] None at all. Even the hospital nurses [46:43] said, "Mom, don't work so hard, just [46:45] buy the supermarket ones." [46:47] Exactly. The nutrition is actually more [46:50] balanced because it’s all [46:51] professionally processed. You're better [46:54] off relaxing and enjoying your child [46:56] than spending two hours in the kitchen [46:57] pureeing food. [46:59] You should use those two hours to [47:01] interact with your baby, hold them, or [47:03] even just take a shower. Just feed them [47:05] the pre-made food; they will grow up [47:07] just fine. [47:07] Ah. [47:08] It instantly eliminated all my guilt. [47:11] Oh. [47:11] And then I realized, wow, that's right, [47:14] so I switched. [47:15] You didn't? I thought, "That's [47:17] impossible, for a baby? Absolutely [47:19] impossible, it would be a sin, that’s [47:22] definitely not allowed." [47:24] Hmm. [47:26] But I do have some concerns about [47:28] handmade food. Like, was there any [47:32] contamination during the process? [47:35] Are you really clean enough? You say [47:37] it's homemade. Right, it might actually [47:39] be harmful. Do you know? Even during [47:44] that process, baby food is usually [47:46] pasteurized at 40 degrees Celsius. [47:49] Well. [47:52] Have you fully completed that entire [47:54] process? That's very difficult. When we [48:04] tell stories, we say we’ve carved our [48:06] ancestors 'traditions into our palms, [48:08] carrying the warmth of our hands to [48:09] pass on to the next person. But is " [48:16] handmade" really that good? [48:18] Hands are full of bacteria. Let me give [48:22] you an example, like the national [48:23] standard for rapeseed oil. [48:27] Hmm. [48:30] Comparing it with the rapeseed oil you [48:31] press by hand at home, I’m not saying [48:33] which is better. I mean, from a safety [48:40] perspective, handmade rapeseed oil [48:42] contains a lot of things like [48:43] glucosinolates. I can't quite explain [48:51] it clearly, but it contains quite a few [48:53] elements that aren't good for us, or [48:55] that hinder us, or are unfavorable to [48:56] our bodies. [49:02] We are all obsessed, for instance, with [49:04] extra virgin olive oil from Spain or [49:06] Italy. It really doesn't have any [49:12] additives, is filtered very few times, [49:14] and has a very rich flavor, but it does [49:16] carry risks. We never warn people about [49:20] the risks of these handmade products. [49:23] Since you've already put in so much [49:25] effort, how could I bring myself to [49:26] warn you? Yet, we always warn about [49:28] industrial ones. [49:29] Those produced through many standards, [49:32] strict standards. But personally, I [49:36] prefer the handmade ones because the [49:37] flavor is punchy. [49:40] Especially that mustard-like scent. [49:43] When we eat this raw rapeseed oil, [49:45] especially if it’s within five days, [49:47] it’s delicious. I love it. You’ve [49:51] also been to that famous chicken [49:53] restaurant in Beijing, [49:55] they press their peanut oil every five [49:57] days. [49:58] It captures that freshest peanut oil [50:00] flavor. And people in Hunan must use [50:03] tea seed oil to stir-fry meat. Every [50:07] year when the tea seeds are harvested, [50:09] every family stores them in the fridge, [50:11] but they still oxidize. Sometimes in [50:15] this world, you have to compromise; [50:17] it’s impossible to have it both ways. [50:21] You can't say you want both perfect [50:23] safety and enough flavor. Actually, [50:25] this is the change. Do you know where [50:27] the contradiction in this world lies? [50:30] Industrial standards don't necessarily [50:32] mean unhygienic or unhealthy, right? [50:37] The handmade flavors we cherish so much [50:39] aren't necessarily hygienic or healthy [50:41] either, but they do have higher value [50:43] in terms of aesthetics. [50:47] No, but we must still remain vigilant [50:49] regarding this massive industrial [50:51] production. [50:53] We need to strengthen oversight because [50:55] if something goes wrong, [50:56] exactly. [50:57] It affects countless people. Compared [51:01] to that, the little risks in your [51:02] process are fine; you feel better [51:03] knowing you’ve put your love into it. [51:09] And your child might grow up knowing a [51:10] dozen more flavors than others, because [51:12] without pasteurization, it definitely [51:14] keeps that "mother's taste." [51:18] But I also think industrial food [51:19] promotes accessibility because it [51:21] lowers costs. It seems like McDonald's [51:23] follows the same logic. [51:25] McDonald's is essentially pre-prepared [51:27] food. [51:27] Yet people are still picky and don't [51:29] consider eating McDonald's to be a [51:31] gourmet experience. [51:32] Is it guaranteed? [51:33] The standardization of Chinese cuisine, [51:35] this actually hides something, do you [51:36] think Chinese cuisine can be [51:38] standardized? [51:39] I think standardization is definitely [51:41] possible. Chinese cuisine. [51:44] To what extent? Actually, in terms of [51:47] standardization, Jia would mention a [51:49] topic, which is that pre-made dishes [51:50] mean everyone's food tastes the same. [51:53] No, that's not it. Not at all. Pre-made [51:57] dishes will collect data on your flavor [51:59] requirements, and it will find the [52:01] majority. [52:04] However, if a minority [52:07] needs that flavor. [52:08] Mm. [52:09] A second brand will quickly emerge. Oh. [52:14] Finding, finding the people who prefer [52:16] this taste, this, this is the invisible [52:19] hand. What were you saying just now? I [52:24] was just saying, I think, right, going [52:26] back to what I just said, I feel [52:28] pre-made dishes help promote many foods [52:30] , and to some extent, I'm thinking now, [52:32] is it possible, like I said, my baby [52:34] had sturgeon for the first time in a [52:36] pre-made dish, in that jar of theirs. I [52:41] thought, they are only four, five, six [52:43] months old, and you're feeding them [52:45] fish? Then the nurse said, you should [52:47] feed them that because it's high in [52:48] protein. So I discovered, I took a bite [52:51] , hey, I! Ate it myself, because I had [52:53] never tried it. [52:54] Then I realized, oh, this is something [52:56] that lets you have just a little bit. [52:57] Right, right? I don't have to go to a [53:00] high-end restaurant to have that big [53:02] piece, but I've already tasted the [53:03] flavor; it helps expand access, or lets [53:05] ordinary people eat a wider variety of [53:07] foods, so I also thought about the [53:09] teenage years when they're full of wild [53:11] energy. [53:12] Actually, actually, at that time they [53:14] still don't have taste memory, people [53:16] need to be a bit older. [53:17] Is that just canned food? Yes. [53:20] Baby food is just canned food; it's [53:22] like buying canned food for cats and [53:24] dogs. It's true, I open a can for my [53:27] cat every day. [53:28] Right, future branches, restaurants, [53:30] essentially become delivery centers. [53:33] That's another topic, that's another [53:35] topic entirely. Oh my, the topics today [53:37] are really great. [53:38] It's all up to you to say. [53:40] It's about the catering industry. Hmm, [53:46] if you categorize restaurants generally [53:48] , in terms of character, they fall into [53:50] two types: restaurants where the chef [53:52] is the benchmark, and restaurants where [53:54] the product or, well, the manager is [53:56] the benchmark. Actually, both types of [54:03] restaurants have their pros and cons. [54:09] With chef-led restaurants, if you want [54:11] to scale up and make big money, it's [54:13] almost impossible, including your [54:14] management costs and your ability to [54:16] specifically control the food. You [54:21] can't say I've opened five branches and [54:23] I'm going to visit all five today; [54:25] that's impossible. [54:27] Right, that’s the first master chef. [54:32] But the manager's take is, "Actually, [54:34] we're holding a meeting, and in our [54:36] current model, I think the first thing [54:37] we should cut is the chef position." [54:46] They prefer pre-made dishes, or what [54:47] you might call pre-prepared ingredients [54:49] . I only need a culinary student who [54:56] just graduated, with three to five [54:58] years of basic training, and they can [55:00] be the head chef at my restaurant, just [55:02] following the recipes. Mhm. [55:09] It’s roughly the same, because since [55:11] it’s a restaurant with an average [55:13] check of around 100 yuan, there are no [55:15] particularly strict demands on flavor, [55:18] serving temperature, seasoning, or the [55:20] level of heat control. So, Dou Wentao, [55:26] you need to think this through. The [55:29] show you’re making is centered on the [55:31] chef. [55:33] Oh, there are many similar shows now; [55:35] ever since short videos became popular, [55:37] everyone seems to be talking, but [55:39] that’s the manager's way of operating [55:41] . [55:42] Yes. [55:43] You see? So don't, don't always be [55:45] thinking about making big money. We [55:49] can't—you just want to create a "Dou [55:51] Wentao" show in your lifetime. [55:56] We were talking about Noma restaurant; [55:58] look, it's facing a crisis. [56:01] It can't keep going. It can't stay open [56:03] . A couple of days ago, I went to a [56:06] sour beer brewery, and the young person [56:08] there was truly exceptional. I asked, " [56:12] So, do you make money making craft beer [56:14] this way?""Of course not," they said. I [56:17] asked, "Then why do you do it?" Then [56:19] why do you make documentaries? [56:21] Right, right, right. [56:23] Let me just... [56:24] Listening to those two industry workers [56:26] from that TV drama about the small [56:28] diner, I thought to myself, they're [56:30] talking about "the hare dies, the hound [56:32] is cooked." [56:33] Exactly, you're fulfilling emotional [56:35] value. It’s like, this meal I'm [56:39] eating isn't just noodles; I'm eating a [56:41] story. [56:42] Right, right. It’s like, are we—the [56:46] Chinese people, or perhaps all of [56:48] humanity—Are we gradually entering an [56:50] era where we can foresee that in terms [56:52] of dietary structure, humans are [56:54] becoming... [56:57] We don't even need people to change; it [56:59] creates a lot of AI. AI. [57:01] It's that before you even change as a [57:03] person, the AI is changing faster than [57:05] you. [57:06] It means if you don't have enough [57:08] uniqueness, you won't be able to beat [57:09] the AI trend. [57:12] Yeah, back then the so-called CP [57:14] movement was all about opposing [57:15] industrial manufacturing and industrial [57:17] standards. You remember the band Pink [57:20] Floyd? They had a famous music video [57:24] where kids come out of a [57:25] production-line machine, all turning [57:27] into identical sausages at the end. [57:30] This is also a trend. [57:31] Look, even they use food as a metaphor. [57:34] So, what are we going to turn into in [57:35] the future? I feel like it's starting [57:38] to feel a bit like being a cyborg. [57:41] Let’s talk to a virtual Wen Tang next [57:43] year. [57:44] Yeah, yeah, exactly. [57:46] That way you can travel the world [57:47] freely, just like you said. [57:50] Exactly, when you go out to speak, [57:52] you’ll definitely be a... [57:55] They could come out and host the show [57:56] for you. They already have that in [57:59] Japan, those AI robot hosts. [58:03] If we follow what Xiaoqing said, yeah, [58:05] the ones who should really be fired are [58:07] the chefs. Just find someone ordinary, [58:12] train them, prep the ingredients, and [58:15] cook according to a set process. It [58:21] tastes the same, and costs can be [58:23] lowered, which I think is a good thing [58:25] for many regular folks. You lower the [58:30] costs, and more people get to enjoy it. [58:34] Once you have the money and the [58:35] standards, then you can move forward [58:37] and pursue that. [58:38] It can be made to taste very good; most [58:40] people can't even tell the difference. [58:42] Only a real master chef would look at [58:44] it and say, "Oh, it's just pre-made." [58:46] But the fear is that pre-made meals [58:48] will become so common that the [58:49] profession won't exist anymore, leaving [58:51] chefs with no way to make a living, [58:52] because... [58:53] So, they need a sense of mission. I [58:59] remember a German guy—it left a deep [59:01] impression on me—when someone asked [59:03] him why he does this job, he gave three [59:06] reasons: first is interest. The second [59:11] is challenge. [59:12] Challenge. [59:13] The third one is the most important: [59:15] you still get paid. [59:17] You still earn a certain income. [59:19] It’s quite brilliant, adding "you [59:21] still get paid." It means you need [59:24] interest and a challenge, even though [59:26] you might not make much money otherwise [59:28] . [59:29] If you can still earn a little money [59:31] under those circumstances. [59:32] Right. [59:33] So cherish it while you do it. [59:35] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, look at you, [59:38] your traffic is so high right now, [59:40] right? And you haven't even opened a [59:43] restaurant chain yet. [59:44] Right. [59:45] No, I really don't...the water here is [59:47] too deep. [59:48] But I really feel that while you're [59:49] doing things so passionately, on the [59:51] other hand, I always feel like there's [59:53] a sense of "the sun setting over the [59:54] western hills" in your writing. [59:56] Is this the "Rabbit Tragedy" you were [59:58] talking about? [60:01] Actually, it's still quite far from the [60:03] dreams I had in my youth. [60:08] What was your dream in your youth? [60:10] Uh, I think it was the media industry. [60:13] Right. [60:15] There might have been more ideals back [60:16] then. [60:18] You didn't aspire to the food scene [60:19] since you were a child. [60:21] Of course not, there's a big gap in [60:23] between, so why did I end up in the [60:25] food industry? [60:30] Because if I were to film wildlife now, [60:32] if I could make money from it, if you [60:34] gave me enough budget, I would do [60:36] everything for free. But the cost is [60:44] too high; our country hasn't reached [60:46] that level yet. There are many [60:51] foundations and groups that love nature [60:53] and can support such things. [60:57] Right, so [60:58] This is something for the state to do. [61:00] I just feel like we've entered what [61:02] they call the era of consumerism, or [61:04] whatever era it is; it's quite [61:06] interesting, but it makes me feel [61:08] there's no point anymore, you know? It [61:11] means you can't talk about things when [61:13] you go out now. It means what you like [61:15] doesn't matter. [61:16] It's all about return on investment. [61:18] Exactly, you want to do something, it's [61:20] all about that. [61:21] Regarding Zidong's three points just [61:23] now, it has now become "Be Yourself." [61:26] That is, turn yourself into a product [61:28] and then make money. Yes, these are [61:30] also three steps. [61:32] This third step is considered first. [61:34] Yes. [61:34] How to make money, then come back to [61:36] figure out what kind of "self" I want [61:37] to be. [61:38] No, only by being yourself can you [61:39] possibly make money; that's true now as [61:41] well. [61:41] No, Teacher Wentao wants to promote tea [61:43] cups as himself, but people think he [61:45] can't make money from it. No, he just [61:47] can't turn himself into a product. [61:49] Really, I just feel [61:50] People will think it's a pity for you [61:52] to do something like selling tea cups. [61:55] Or they might think you're ridiculous, [61:57] because for us ordinary people, we open [61:59] a Weibo or something, wanting to post [62:00] whatever we like. Making money is best, [62:05] but if not, it doesn't matter. This is [62:08] what influencer marketing is; you know, [62:11] I've even struggled with this. In the [62:15] end, I realized I didn't dare do it [62:17] because the outside world is too [62:18] unfamiliar and the risks are too high. [62:22] For example, if I were to promote [62:24] products, who could I trust? [62:26] Hmm. [62:27] You might hold a microphone, but I [62:29] don't know you. Someone might come [62:31] wearing a tie and say, "I'll give you a [62:33] hundred million." What would I do, you [62:35] know? How would I know? I love to [62:37] promote things, so I told them, if I'm [62:39] going to livestream, I need to have [62:41] known you for at least a few years. I [62:43] need to know who you are and understand [62:45] you, so if something goes wrong, you [62:47] won't just dump the blame on me, right? [62:49] So, in the end, that's what I'm saying [62:51] —working with a company is difficult. [62:54] It’s impossible to work that way; [62:56] they all have these plans where you [62:57] have to help them, which helps you, and [62:59] also helps us make big money. If you [63:01] can't make big money, it’s honestly [63:03] ridiculous. What on earth are you doing [63:06] ? We originally thought this [63:09] goal-oriented mindset was actually [63:10] quite fine. But now I find that it [63:14] seems like no one really cares about [63:16] whether they actually like what [63:17] they’re doing or not. [63:21] The turning point in artistic [63:22] perception, driven by science—the [63:24] Frankfurt School argued that it was [63:26] actually caused by cinema. Mm. [63:32] They said that before cinema, people [63:34] appreciated art with a sense of [63:35] uniqueness and reverence. You go to a [63:41] museum to see a statue, and if someone [63:43] tells you it's a fake, you immediately [63:45] lose interest. It's about the lingering [63:48] charm—they’re saying it’s unique, [63:50] something you think about long after, [63:52] it has a certain flavor, and so on. All [63:56] these concepts of music and fine art— [63:58] that's how the world defined what was [64:00] good. That was until the emergence of [64:04] cinema. The problem with film is that [64:10] you are caught up in it, worrying that [64:12] because you rejected a partner for [64:13] various reasons, you’ll just give up, [64:15] lie flat, and stop doing anything at [64:17] all. In fact, you still have plenty of [64:23] room to choose and do things based on [64:25] your own individual cases. Whether what [64:32] you produce can be sustained or [64:34] developed is another matter, because of [64:36] various structural monopolies—the key [64:37] lies in the monopoly. When the monopoly [64:45] isn't fully realized, you still have [64:47] some space, but it’s not easy to [64:48] maintain. Look at how successful Chen [64:54] Xiao is today, with the widest possible [64:56] coverage, but at the same time, he [64:58] expresses his own unique concerns in [65:00] his shows and books, right? He [65:05] expresses some doubts, but regarding [65:07] the commercial principles of big [65:09] corporations, he remains very neutral [65:11] and wise. He is very successful, and I [65:16] think I deserve to be where I am, you [65:18] should be able to do it too. [65:21] I think we should look for some comfort [65:23] here. [65:25] Well, I truly believe Teacher Chen is [65:27] someone worth learning from, right? [65:31] Look at how he understands and [65:32] scientifically recognizes [65:34] standardization, but at the same time, [65:36] uses his work to constantly remind [65:37] everyone of our gradually disappearing [65:39] hometown. So, the slogan we instill in [65:46] our team is "active pessimists." [65:51] Active pessimists. [65:53] Meaning we know many things. Are [65:57] completely out of our control. But we [66:00] still must actively. [66:01] Engage in them; there is no other way. [66:03] It is, to a certain degree, the spirit [66:06] of Lu Xun. [66:06] But do you believe that in the future, [66:08] things will swing back? [66:10] Eating is the most important thing for [66:12] humanity, after all. So, do you think [66:17] humanity will have a natural [66:19] inclination, where once we enter a [66:21] stage of standardized food, will people [66:23] eventually become dissatisfied? Will [66:28] the distinct flavors, that unique charm [66:30] in the small shops along the alleys, [66:32] eventually become a universal demand [66:34] again, and spring up like bamboo shoots [66:36] after rain to overcome this era of [66:38] standardization? [66:41] That depends on the overall speed of [66:43] social development; I think it might be [66:45] related to the speed. If things change [66:47] too quickly, it dies; and once it dies, [66:49] it is hard to revive. We have so many " [66:51] long-established" brands claiming [66:53] hundreds of years of history. Look at [66:55] how many generations of owners have [66:57] passed. Aside from what they call the " [67:01] core craft," which might barely be [67:03] passed down, in reality, once that core [67:05] craft leaves the original brain, what [67:07] is that core craft worth? How much [67:10] value does it really have, right? If [67:13] you look at our neighboring country, [67:15] they have so many tiny shops, even [67:16] though their survival is also very [67:18] difficult. [67:19] Oh. [67:21] There are so many tiny, [67:22] hole-in-the-wall shops, shops with just [67:25] three or four people. They keep the [67:27] inside spotlessly clean. Hmm. [67:30] And the owner watches you eat, sees you [67:32] enjoying it, and their reaction—the [67:34] expression on their face. [67:37] Just them cooking a bowl of noodles— [67:39] not some world-famous brand—but [67:40] seeing you enjoy it makes them happy, [67:42] and I find that very moving. On one [67:44] hand, there are these large-scale [67:46] chains, for example. [67:48] They are all things they came up with; [67:51] MSG is also...MSG, like I said, is not [67:54] a culprit. Looking at food additives, [67:58] including MSG and chicken bouillon, [68:00] they are all products of modern [68:01] technology. You can't call it...you [68:05] can't say someone is lazy just because [68:07] they used chicken bouillon. Even if you [68:11] use MSG perfectly, without the flavor [68:12] of the soup you simmered yourself, you [68:14] probably can't even reach half the [68:16] quality. This, this is something you [68:20] can never beat; a soup made by a great [68:22] chef is something that can never be [68:23] replaced. Coming back to those huge, [68:28] massive chain restaurants, the kind [68:30] that seat a thousand people—they have [68:32] them too. But their small shops [68:36] actually thrive. [68:38] Yeah. Honestly, when I think back on [68:40] these food memories, they don't seem [68:42] very impressive. Usually, you just [68:45] recall things like being in Shizhuang [68:47] as a kid, braving a heavy downpour to [68:50] eat flatbread. [68:52] You know the guy, right? [68:54] No, I don't. [68:56] It’s like rice noodles, but instead [68:57] of stir-fried rice noodles, [69:00] they swapped in northern-style griddled [69:03] bread, sliced, sliced, sliced, sliced [69:05] into strips. Wow, what a pathetic kid. [69:08] There was meat on top, sprinkled with [69:10] chili oil. Oh, man! Braving the flooded [69:13] streets just to eat—all these [69:14] memories are from these tiny shops. I [69:17] can't even imagine that kind of thing [69:18] in a standardized place. Also, there [69:20] was this beef chow fun spot by the back [69:22] door of Guangdong Radio on Panfu Road. [69:25] Back then, my colleague and I went [69:26] there; it was really all about the [69:28] chili oil you’d pour on it. [69:30] It was that chili oil. Imagine, eight [69:32] plates of beef chow fun—we each [69:34] downed four plates, drank beer, [69:36] shirtless, just in our undershirts. [69:38] That’s the kind of memory it is. Even [69:40] though I’ve eaten so many good things [69:42] since, I can’t put them into words; [69:44] it’s so strange that I don’t [69:45] remember them.