学者剖析女性荧幕困境与两性博弈

学者剖析女性荧幕困境与两性博弈 当代影视中的虚假大女主与极端控制欲源于不安全感，而唯有建立在独立主体性上的包容才能消解两性博弈的痛苦。 节目围绕当代女性的现实困境、荧幕叙事及婚恋关系展开了多维度的深度剖析。嘉宾们从《渴望》《三体》及甜宠剧等影视文本切入，对比了电视剧虚假套路与脱口秀现实主义对女性痛苦的解构方式，并探讨了黄阿丽、树木希林等女性公众人物所展现的复杂主体性。下半场深入讨论了当代亲密关系中的财务权力博弈、查手机现象、出轨的界限以及追求真相带来的残酷代价，最终主张以精神独立和“难得糊涂”的阔达视角来化解人生的不安全感与占有欲。 线下脱口秀市场中女性观众占比已达约80%，相较于男性观众常持有的竞争与防御姿态，女性更善于代入自嘲并寻求情感共鸣，推动喜剧成为探讨身体禁忌与性别困境的重要公共阵地。 (30:08) 主流电视剧创作在性别叙事上呈现滞后，长期依赖“笨蛋美人”以及等待全能精英男主救赎的童话套路；直到以《爱情神话》为代表的女性主导创作涌现，才打破了35岁以上成熟女性在银幕上的边缘化与琐碎化。 (41:33) 幽默作为高智商的展现，在婚恋市场中存在显著的性别双重标准：男性展现幽默可转化为婚恋吸引力，女性展现敏锐锋利的幽默却往往带来心理压迫感或沦为“哥们”关系。 (50:14) 现代智能手机的数字足迹使私人生活变得彻底透明，但调查发现多数人在追寻出轨真相时缺乏心理承受力，促使亲密关系在严酷的互查与适度的“难得糊涂”之间寻求平衡。 (81:58)

The panel argues that mainstream cultural narratives frequently infantilize female agency through melodramatic and saccharine tropes, whereas authentic autonomy requires confronting complex dilemmas in creative expression, social nonconformity, and interpersonal relationships. Through media critique, stand-up comedy, and personal anecdotes, the speakers contrast artificial romantic illusions with the lived realities of female resilience and relational boundaries. Media Distortion and the Sanitization of Heroines (0:00) Mainstream Chinese television frequently replaces authentic female dilemmas with moralistic formulas and romantic escapism. The panel notes how historical works like Wang Shuo’s planning of Yearning manufactured audience sympathy by concentrating all virtue and misfortune into a single long-suffering heroine—a pattern that persists today in regressive "white lotus" figures, "clueless girl" archetypes, and saccharine "sweet pet" romances. Adaptations such as the television version of Yi Shu’s The First Half of My Life illustrate this regression, abandoning the original novel’s focus on genuine financial self-reliance in favor of a romantic male rescue. In contrast, audiences increasingly embrace morally ambiguous, grounded figures. Characters like Ye Wenjie in The Three-Body Problem resonate not through flawless virtue, but through an earned, radical despair driven by societal betrayal and ecological plunder. Similarly, the panel highlights Ruben Östlund’s satire Triangle of Sadness, where an excruciating argument between a dating couple over splitting a restaurant bill exposes unvarnished financial hypocrisy and transactional tensions absent from domestic romantic melodramas. Female Stand-Up Comedy and Public Double Standards (44:21) Stand-up comedy serves as an indispensable medium for validating suppressed female realities—such as fertility pressures, menstrual shame, and the physical vulnerability of gynecological examinations—yet female performers operate under stringent social double standards. While live stand-up audiences in China are estimated to be roughly 80% female, male spectators often adopt competitive or defensive postures. Comedians unpack the reality that humor signals intellectual dominance; consequently, while women frequently translate their appreciation of a male comic into romantic attraction, men tend to view funny women as platonic peers rather than romantic prospects. Furthermore, comedic craft inherently involves roasting and self-deprecation. While male performers have an established tradition of playing the clown, women face fierce backlash for violating societal expectations of gentility and modesty, as illustrated by public controversies surrounding Yang Li. Comedians such as Ali Wong navigate these boundaries by subverting corporate "Lean In" ethos into a desire to "lie down," even though real-world marital dynamics ultimately forced her to financially support a dependent spouse. Nonconformity Versus the Strength of Settling Down (31:40) The panel examines the acute social friction experienced by individuals who resist collective milestones in conservative environments. Examples include a 30-year-old educated woman ostracized for prioritizing romantic connection in a Hunan county seat, a ballet dancer in And the Spring Comes who stages an offense to dance undisturbed in prison, and an archival interview of a rural woman declaring she would "rather suffer than be numb." Each case demonstrates that persistent suffering is often fueled by personal hope for broader horizons rather than outright despair. Conversely, panelists push back against cultural narratives that unilaterally glorify escapism and "faraway places." Citing Li Shuihua’s endurance amid hardship in Minning Town, a speaker argues that the capacity to immerse oneself in ordinary life and "settle down" represents an underrated strength. Literary critic Mao Jian similarly recounts how male admirers expected her incisive prose to reflect a bohemian rebel, only to express disappointment upon discovering her modest demeanor and everyday domestic life, which she defends as requiring its own profound fortitude. Digital Surveillance and Emotional Versus Physical Betrayal (83:05) Addressing modern partnerships, the panel critiques digital surveillance, identifying the smartphone as an inescapable catalyst for relationship destruction that traps couples in agonizing interrogations. While suspicious partners obsess over divining fidelity, fortune-telling consultations reveal that many women lack the emotional bandwidth to cope with the marital betrayals they uncover, often pivoting instead toward financial practicalities and inheritance. When evaluating infidelity, speakers establish a crucial distinction between physical slips and emotional treason. While some panelists assert that an isolated, confessed physical indiscretion can be forgiven within an asymmetrical relationship, linguistic betrayal represents an absolute red line. A partner who leaks private marital disputes, ridicules his spouse behind her back to a lover, or exchanges exclusive knowing glances across a crowded dinner table inflicts far deeper, irreversible relational damage than a physical transgression. The dialogue concludes by evaluating relationship crises from the vantage point of extreme old age. While younger partners often succumb to pathological possessiveness driven by insecurity, looking back across a lifetime suggests that youthful betrayals diminish in significance by age eighty, leaving inner confidence and self-contained emotional autonomy as the ultimate anchors in both love and social life.

[0:00] blind kindness and ethical principles are merely superficial glory [9:05] Oh, the camera is on me, I should clarify, the crew didn't ask me to do this, I'm actually knitting. [24:00] I would rather suffer than be numb. [31:40] If you have the ability to settle your own heart, you can be at peace wherever you are; if you can't settle it, you will be restless wherever you go. [37:33] the audience doesn't believe in the pain of beautiful women [43:48] 王朔: The ultimate test of friendship is whether you can talk trash about other people together. [57:48] 黄阿丽: The television is taking care of my kids, and the windows are even left open. [57:48] Couldn't you wait until I’m dead to get divorced? I get a million calls a day, I’ve been humiliated a million times. [60:16] 黄阿丽: I don't want to lean in, I want to lie down. [70:06] 你真的挺在乎钱的，是吧？就为了一顿饭的钱，你至于吗？ [73:27] 爱一个人，就是把伤害你的权利完完全全交给他，但是很多人拿到这个权利之后，就觉得：太好了，我现在有伤害你的权利了。 [78:47] 欢迎来到北京 [81:58] 算了算了，不要告诉我了。大师，你就告诉我，我老公什么时候死吧。 [90:03] 马未都: 难得糊涂

[0:00] In the early 90s, the first phenomenal [0:02] TV series in Chinese history that [0:04] emptied the streets was "Yearning."" [0:06] Yearning."" [0:06] Yearning" was exactly the kind of show [0:08] Wang planned. [0:09] It doesn't seem like his usual style. [0:11] Not like him at all, not like him at [0:13] all. [0:13] He’s not that kind of rebellious [0:15] urban youth, but in fact, his planning [0:17] was very rational. He said: [0:20] Put all the kindness into one person, [0:21] then make that kind person suffer all [0:23] the misfortune in the world, and [0:25] everyone will feel especially sorry for [0:27] them. Right. [0:29] Does that mean people will wake up and [0:31] realize they shouldn't be so kind next [0:32] time? [0:33] No, actually, "The Glory" you mentioned [0:36] earlier is quite a critique of kindness [0:38] . Isn't there a famous line in it, said [0:41] by the man's mother? I don't remember [0:43] the specifics, but it means that if... [0:46] Why don't you give me the gist, and [0:48] I'll see if I can recall it. Okay, it [0:51] means that if there isn't any real [0:53] substance behind goodness, then that [0:54] goodness is worthless. Oh, I see, I [0:57] hadn't thought of that. Well, evil [1:00] itself actually has a driving force. [1:03] The issue is that current TV dramas [1:05] have become so infantile, where all the [1:07] female leads are incredibly kind— " [1:09] white lotuses"—supposedly smart, but [1:11] actually brainless. But for example, [1:13] when I watched "The Glory," I felt the [1:15] first part that everyone found so [1:16] satisfying was when she hit people, [1:18] right? Exactly, that part where her [1:20] child was being bullied. She rushed in [1:21] and beat those two people up. It felt [1:23] so…I didn’t think it was wrong. She [1:25] was a little bit mean, but then you [1:26] think, how should I put it? I think [1:28] because her overall image is still [1:30] elegant, you just feel, oh, she really [1:31] is in a difficult situation. In current [1:33] TV dramas, regarding this female image [1:35] —I’ve seen you write about [1:36] independent women—if they just remove [1:38] this "kindness," does that settle it? [1:40] They haven't removed the kindness; [1:42] they’re still very kind, because if [1:43] they weren't, the story wouldn't be [1:45] able to continue. If they weren't kind, [1:47] the TV series would end by the second [1:48] episode. They always make them very [1:50] kind. Like Zhang Ziyi in "Monarch [1:53] Industry," who can win over all men and [1:55] command an army, yet when she meets a [1:57] maid, she can't see through her tricks [1:59] at all, and she just keeps getting [2:01] fooled over and over, dragging the show [2:03] on episode by episode. [2:05] In fact, kindness has never been taken [2:06] away. True, it hasn't. [2:08] For instance, back in the day, we said [2:10] Wang Shuo had removed kindness, [2:12] creating a series of rebellious urban [2:14] women. The rebellious urban women he [2:16] liked were all kind at their core, yes. [2:20] It's just that he stripped away that [2:22] superficial gentleness, that [2:24] superficial obedience. [2:26] He took those away. [2:27] Right. [2:27] He gave them rebellious, [2:29] individualistic traits, but they were [2:31] kind at heart, just like Wang Shuo [2:32] himself—despite his frequent harsh [2:34] words, he is a man with a very soft, [2:36] very kind heart. [2:37] Little Red Flower. [2:38] Yes, actually, in all works to this day [2:40] , female characters are the same. About [2:42] that sentence you mentioned just now— [2:43] I haven't seen that show, but I think [2:45] that line is excellent. Find it. I mean [2:47] , what does that sentence mean? It [2:50] means there's no meaning without [2:52] genuine kindness. If we portray or [2:56] express kindness, that's not wrong— [2:58] it's great—but what lies beneath it? [3:01] What experiences shaped it? What values [3:04] serve as its foundation? [3:06] I found it. It says: "I discovered that [3:09] blind kindness and ethical principles [3:11] are merely superficial glory." It might [3:14] be a bit...because that "blind kindness [3:16] " is just for show. [3:17] Right, blind kindness is just a bit of, [3:19] well... [3:20] Yes, or what you'd call a "naive" or " [3:22] saccharine" kind of goodness. [3:23] Mm. [3:25] Perhaps it lacks that foundation of [3:26] values. Kindness that comes from [3:30] character and spirit stands up better [3:32] to tests and offers more genuine [3:33] comfort. You say that no matter how [3:38] independent these women are, there [3:39] still seems to be a bottom line. But [3:42] what about Ye Wenjie in*Three-Body*? [3:45] Does she seem able to withstand the [3:47] test of this bottom line? [3:49] Ye Wenjie has become the most acclaimed [3:51] character during this Spring Festival [3:52] season. Even netizens across the [3:54] country feel that Ye Wenjie represents [3:56] a quintessential "new woman" in the [3:58] history of the New China. [4:00] But look at this kind of woman; in the [4:02] story, she ultimately has to walk a [4:04] path of destruction, right? [4:06] It’s just as Professor Zhang said [4:08] earlier—deep down, she still has [4:09] elements of kindness, and in the end, [4:11] that kindness still reemerges. Right. [4:13] She sought kindness but couldn't attain [4:15] it, and that is actually... [4:16] Right, what is the source of her lack [4:18] of kindness? If you look at all her [4:20] experiences, humans are just made of [4:22] two parts: the emotional and the [4:23] rational. From an emotional perspective [4:26] , her father was persecuted to death, [4:28] and her mother and sister were... [4:31] That situation, and everything he [4:32] encountered, like being framed by [4:34] colleagues—in all his emotional [4:36] experiences, he never met a good person [4:38] . Of course, he was in a very specific [4:40] historical period. [4:42] It was exceptionally dark. That was his [4:44] personal experience, and from a [4:46] rational perspective, in those silent [4:47] mountains and forests, he saw [4:49] humanity’s destruction of the Earth. [4:51] So, whether emotionally or rationally, [4:54] it determined his immense [4:55] disappointment, or even despair, toward [4:57] humanity. So when he heard the call [5:01] from outer space, he hoped that the [5:03] message would be good, and that the [5:05] message could save this world. Mm. [5:11] So, all that groundwork for his [5:13] background, I think, makes his later [5:15] behavior logical; it’s reasonable for [5:17] him, and it has its roots. [5:21] And even so, it doesn’t change the [5:23] fact that there is still kindness [5:25] within him; he is not a destroyer. [5:26] Right, and actually, this is a greater [5:28] form of kindness. He wants to save the [5:30] entire Earth; he is just sacrificing [5:32] the smaller self. All the people around [5:34] him in his immediate life are a minor [5:35] interest compared to the interests of [5:37] the whole planet. Why do the audience [5:39] sympathize with her? I think it’s [5:41] because so many people today are [5:42] disappointed in humanity. [5:44] Exactly. Yeah, many people cheer for Ye [5:46] Wenjie. [5:47] Right, they feel that humans have [5:48] committed too many sins. [5:49] They’ve ravaged the Earth so severely [5:51] , so they deserve some punishment; [5:53] that’s roughly the mentality. [5:55] Right, what about you? In your stand-up [5:57] comedy, in the interaction between you [5:59] and female audience members, what kind [6:01] of jokes or content do you find [6:02] resonate the most? For example, the [6:04] things I wrote back in 2014, 2015, and [6:07] 2016, like graduating, joining a law [6:09] firm, dealing with certain clients, or [6:11] talking about the struggles of being [6:14] single and unable to find a partner. [6:17] Once you've written enough about [6:18] yourself, you start to expand. You look [6:21] at issues that might exist within you [6:23] too, but have broader social resonance. [6:27] For example, in my current tour, I talk [6:29] about menstrual shame and the fertility [6:31] pressures faced by women of my age. And [6:33] also, how in relationships, like those [6:35] with a younger partner, women often [6:37] have to take on the role of the [6:38] caregiver. These are things I face [6:40] myself, and they are also topics that [6:42] other women like me are facing, so [6:43] it’s a constantly evolving process. [6:46] But the reason I write these things is [6:48] actually because as a woman, or just as [6:50] a person, I encounter certain things [6:52] during my upbringing that make me [6:53] uncomfortable, and I want to vent about [6:55] them. By expressing them through comedy [6:58] , it happens that the audience [7:00] resonates with them. It’s all [7:01] predicaments. [7:02] They are all predicaments. [7:03] But you don't really provide an answer, [7:05] do you? [7:05] I don't provide answers; stand-up [7:07] comedians never solve problems. [7:08] But there are always answers in film [7:10] and television. [7:10] Exactly, that's just the formula. In [7:12] the end, their success—even if it's [7:14] professional success—is secondary. [7:16] There’s always a better man who [7:17] appears, a man with more money, better [7:19] looks, and more "qualifications" to [7:20] love her. [7:21] Mhm, what you just said reminds me of " [7:22] The First Half of My Life." Yes, yes, " [7:24] The First Half of My Life" is just like [7:26] that too. That woman immediately goes [7:28] into business—Ma Yili’s character [7:30] —and becomes successful right away. [7:32] Despite being a "trophy wife" initially [7:34] , she succeeds in a year, steals her [7:36] best friend’s boyfriend, and faces [7:38] absolutely no repercussions. Right, the [7:40] key is that "The First Half of My Life" [7:42] is a novel by Yi Shu. Back then, we saw [7:44] Chiung Yao’s work first. [7:45] Mhm. [7:46] Then, after a few days of novelty, I [7:48] quickly lost interest, feeling her [7:49] stories were just too melodramatic. [7:51] Then Yi Shu’s work came along. Mhm. [7:53] I felt that I preferred Yi Shu’s work [7:55] because of the urban vibe; her female [7:57] characters have more personality, and [7:59] are more autonomous and independent. [8:01] Mhm, so "The First Half of My Life" is [8:03] quite a famous, representative work of [8:05] Yi Shu’s, and it left a deep [8:06] impression on me. Then they made a TV [8:08] drama version of "The First Half of My [8:10] Life," and after watching it, I found [8:12] it hilarious. Right. [8:14] It started off with Yi Shu’s themes [8:15] but eventually wandered into Chiung [8:17] Yao’s territory. Because she [8:19] originally wrote about how a woman [8:20] discovers that, for example, you can't [8:22] rely on a husband, a man, or a family. [8:26] You are eventually forced to become [8:27] independent, and you must take charge [8:29] of yourself, both financially and [8:31] mentally. "The First Half of My Life" [8:33] is exactly that kind of story. [8:35] And our TV drama version certainly [8:36] started from that premise, didn't it? [8:38] Yes, it did. But as it went on, it [8:40] turned into the trope of "the richest [8:42] man in the world falls in love with me. [8:44] " [8:44] It has always been like that. [8:45] An overbearing CEO falling in love with [8:47] me? What's going on? Aren't we supposed [8:49] to be independent? It turned into a [8:50] Chiung Yao story. [8:52] The plot is basically me dumping a [8:54] mediocre CEO to meet a much better CEO, [8:56] that's all. [9:01] So when I watched this show, I felt [9:03] like, wow, we’re still in the early [9:05] stages of urbanization; we just end up [9:07] regressing from modern society back to [9:09] an agricultural family-dinner dynamic. [9:13] Including how in 2021, so many women [9:15] were doing embroidery at home, though I [9:17] feel like the trend has shifted over [9:19] the last two years. According to my [9:21] observations, we now have this " [9:22] clueless girl" trope, where she makes [9:24] typos, and then admitting to these [9:25] mistakes is portrayed as a cute trait. [9:27] Including characters who aren't very [9:29] educated, and the male lead dotingly [9:31] corrects her spelling mistakes. It’s [9:35] similar, like, I’m not sure what kind [9:37] of trend this is, maybe it’s some [9:38] sort of revision of the embroidery [9:40] trope? Regarding this type of thing, [9:43] actually. [9:45] But they still set up these scenarios [9:47] where the woman is strong and the man [9:49] is weak, where he’s supposed to stay [9:51] at home, is a virgin, and has that [9:52] artisanal vibe, something like that. [9:56] It’s actually a total reversal of [9:58] gender roles. It looks like we have a " [10:01] big heroine" or an advanced female [10:03] character, but it’s actually [10:04] completely regressive. I once saw a BBC [10:09] news segment where they visited a [10:10] British home to interview someone, and [10:12] the grandmother was knitting. Then she [10:16] said, "Oh, the camera is on me, I [10:18] should clarify, the crew didn't ask me [10:20] to do this, I'm actually knitting." [10:23] That should be the norm, right? I think [10:25] so. There's nothing wrong with knitting [10:28] if you actually like it, but if a [10:30] production crew forces you to sit there [10:32] and knit just because you're a woman, [10:33] that's a problem. That's stereotyping. [10:37] People need to have diverse hobbies; [10:39] you can't just be knitting all the time [10:40] . So what are the heartbroken women [10:42] like in your stand-up sets? [10:43] You’ll see a lot of things online [10:45] saying that after a breakup, you should [10:46] be dignified and elegant and not speak [10:48] ill of your ex, because talking bad [10:50] about an ex makes you look like a bad [10:51] person. But in reality, why? That kind [10:54] of talk was definitely invented by an [10:56] ex with a terrible personality to trick [10:58] you. If I don't speak ill of an ex, the [11:00] only reason is that there’s nothing [11:02] bad to say, so then why did you two [11:04] break up? Then the problem is with me, [11:06] right? I feel that nowadays, if we talk [11:08] about heartbreak, if a woman has been [11:10] through a breakup and is truly hurt and [11:12] dissatisfied, she should speak out. She [11:14] should just go crazy instead of trying [11:16] to be dignified and elegant, because [11:18] those things will only bind you, [11:19] causing all the pain and sorrow to turn [11:21] inward, and you will just keep getting [11:23] hurt over and over again. If you really [11:25] feel any dissatisfaction, you can go [11:27] crazy with your best friends, or you [11:29] can go crazy at your ex. I don't think [11:31] you need to maintain decency and [11:33] elegance, as those things only stop you [11:35] from expressing yourself more freely. I [11:38] remember in the past, when I was a [11:40] child, there were many aunties who had [11:42] a special trick if their husbands [11:43] cheated: they would go to his workplace [11:45] and cause a scene. [11:47] That’s not popular anymore. [11:49] Isn't it still quite common? You mean [11:50] like holding up banners? I've seen it [11:52] on the internet, people going to cause [11:54] a scene. I think it’s like this: when [11:56] your rights are violated, you need to [11:58] speak up. You can't just be dignified [11:59] and let it slide, because if you do, [12:01] people will just bully you even more. [12:03] So I feel that our current standard of [12:04] dignity and elegance limits our [12:06] expression of these negative emotions. [12:08] No wonder we now understand why our [12:09] mothers told us to find someone with a [12:11] steady job; if they don't have a [12:12] workplace, you can't go there to cause [12:14] a scene. [12:15] That's exactly the same. [12:17] I thought we were supposed to put all [12:18] our energy into...wait, in TV dramas, [12:20] aren't we supposed to go start a [12:22] business? We should. [12:23] I need to go crazy first before I start [12:25] a business. [12:25] I remember a Japanese drama I saw when [12:27] I was young that left a deep impression [12:29] on me. This girl played the cello, and [12:30] she kept playing it even after a [12:32] breakup, saying she didn't have time to [12:34] be heartbroken because she was busy [12:35] practicing. That's what we seem to [12:37] think heartbreak should look like. [12:39] Right, and recently when I was watching [12:41] "Meet Yourself," the character played [12:43] by Liu Yifei was told by her boyfriend, [12:45] "Let's break up," and she just said " [12:47] Okay" and went back to work. [12:50] It wasn't even about the resolve to [12:52] break up; it terrified me! Oh my god, [12:54] you have to be human. [12:55] Isn't that even more ruthless? [12:57] You just have to find a way, if you... [12:58] You mean making the other person pay [13:00] the price, is that what you're saying? [13:01] Exactly, because if you're a pushover, [13:03] everyone will bully you, and you'll get [13:05] bullied in this relationship. If you [13:06] are this tough, wouldn't the next man [13:08] be very afraid? [13:10] Then you weed out the losers, weed out [13:12] those who want to hurt you, and just [13:13] let those who are willing to treat you [13:15] well come; if they don't want to, get [13:17] lost. [13:17] Right, that’s the answer I wanted [13:19] from you. [13:20] My final conclusion is that we need [13:22] more psychological counselors. [13:24] Let them vent; they can vent to their [13:26] best friends or go crazy on a therapist [13:28] , but I really can't accept making a [13:30] scene at the workplace. Isn't it true [13:31] that every debt has a debtor and every [13:33] injustice has a perpetrator? Shouldn't [13:34] you just make a scene with your ex? [13:36] What does it have to do with their [13:37] workplace? I feel that having such [13:39] intense emotions after a breakup and [13:41] needing to cause a scene endlessly is a [13:43] form of mental illness or an addictive [13:45] personality, they need treatment, but [13:47] what does this have to do with... [13:50] I have a different opinion. Regarding [13:52] the so-called causing a scene at the [13:54] workplace, I wonder, why go there? [13:55] It’s because that man can act so [13:57] recklessly and hurt so many women in [13:59] the dating scene only because no one [14:00] can hold him accountable. His only core [14:03] connection to society is his workplace, [14:05] which he cares about. As for the [14:07] feelings of you women who have been [14:08] hurt, he doesn't care about them at all [14:10] . So I want to destroy the place you [14:12] care about most, so that at least the [14:14] people around his workplace will know [14:16] he’s no good in relationships; I [14:17] think that’s very important. [14:19] I want to ask, are women really so [14:21] unable to separate or break away from [14:23] this old world? I have a feeling, like [14:25] that film at the Oscars that didn’t [14:27] get talked about enough, *The Banshees [14:29] of Inisherin*, isn't it about two men [14:31] who want to separate? And in such a [14:34] drastic way, but I personally think [14:36] that the sister, Pádraic’s sister, I [14:38] think she’s great. Let’s talk about [14:42] the plot first; the story is set in a [14:44] remote village on a lonely island, with [14:46] two men. [14:48] With nothing to do all day, these two [14:50] farmers were best friends, and apart [14:51] from farm work, they’d just drink [14:53] beer and talk nonsense together, having [14:55] wasted half a lifetime like that, for [14:57] years, and suddenly one day, for no [14:59] reason, you stop talking to me. [15:00] He announced that he would no longer [15:02] drink beer with me, hang out with me, [15:03] or speak to me. I was so devastated, [15:05] wondering what I had done wrong, how I [15:06] had offended him—but I hadn't [15:08] offended him at all. [15:08] The reason was that he wanted to find [15:10] the meaning of life. He said he had to [15:12] find the meaning of life, that chatting [15:13] with me was a waste of time, that he [15:15] had to play his instrument, he had to [15:17] write music. [15:18] He didn't want to live his life in vain [15:20] , so he just started ignoring me. How [15:21] lonely I was, how painful it was, how [15:23] much people mocked me! Others even [15:25] thought I had done something terrible. [15:27] But this guy was ruthless; he really [15:29] stopped talking to me. I chased after [15:31] him every day—why? [15:32] I insisted he talk to me, but he was so [15:34] harsh that he said, "Don't speak to me [15:36] again, don't follow me. If you dare to [15:38] chase me and talk to me again, I'll [15:40] chop off a finger." I didn't believe it [15:42] , so I kept chasing him? He really [15:44] chopped it off! He really did! Every [15:45] time I spoke, a finger went; a few more [15:47] words, and another two fingers were [15:49] gone. I had only this one friend, and [15:50] at home, I only had one relative; my [15:52] sister and I relied on each other, but [15:54] later she stopped talking to me too, [15:55] because she loved reading and wanted to [15:57] study literature. [15:58] The key point is, I feel that this [16:00] sister in the story is the one who sees [16:01] through the hypocrisy of these men. For [16:03] instance, the guy who wanted to pursue [16:05] music said, "You see, nobody from the [16:07] 17th century will leave a name behind, [16:09] except for Galatt." My sister replied, [16:11] "Galatt is from the 18th century." [16:13] Actually, both of you are quite [16:15] tiresome. Then she felt that living on [16:17] this isolated island was boring; the [16:19] island was such a desolate, suffocating [16:21] place, but her way of dealing with it [16:23] was to leave. [16:24] Why do you insist on chopping off [16:26] fingers when you're all so unwilling? [16:27] Aren't you just getting more and more [16:29] entangled with the past? I left; I [16:30] sailed away on a light, swift boat, not [16:32] even taking my favorite book with me. [16:34] And did you notice? The woman in this [16:36] film wears very bright colors, while [16:37] everyone else always appears in dark [16:39] clothes. The whole film is very bleak, [16:41] only she leaves in that bright yellow [16:43] dress; she is so graceful. To me, this [16:45] woman is saying goodbye to an old world [16:47] , and she feels so light. [16:53] Just one book and a passing cloud. Yeah [17:11] , but I still feel she had to give that [17:13] old world a kick, which is [17:14] she felt she still had to head off to [17:15] work. [17:16] Right, I don't mean you have to hold a [17:17] banner at their office entrance for [17:19] your whole life. I mean you should go [17:21] at least once, just to make them lose [17:22] face and pay a certain price, and that [17:24] would be fine. [17:25] No one offended him. Ah. [17:27] Whose banner is he going to hold? No [17:28] one offended him. [17:30] No, no, I'm talking about the breakup; [17:32] he just hasn't accepted my point of [17:34] view yet. [17:36] Is the younger sister just saying [17:37] goodbye to the old world? By starting [17:39] my new life, I’m saying the best [17:41] possible goodbye to the old world. [17:43] And she is kind; she accepts her [17:44] brother, saying you can come over, I [17:46] have a bed for you. She is still [17:49] tolerant and accepting. Right. [17:50] In comparison, the sister's way is more [17:53] humane. [17:53] You can feel her hesitation when she [17:55] leaves; she still cares for her brother [17:57] . She has feelings, unlike that guy. [17:59] That guy isn't emotionless, but his way [18:01] of expressing it is just too extreme. [18:03] I think his way of expressing it just [18:05] goes to show—if you’re that extreme [18:07] with people, if you break up in such a [18:09] cruel way, saying "if you look for me [18:11] again, I'll chop off my fingers," don't [18:13] you think he actually misses the other [18:15] person? [18:15] The other person is even more confused, [18:16] thinking, "I just want to get to the [18:18] bottom of this, I just want to cling to [18:19] you." [18:19] Exactly, exactly. [18:21] Oh, it’s just that...when I saw that [18:23] part, seeing it so tragic, it's [18:24] actually completely impossible in terms [18:26] of story structure. It's a plot that [18:28] doesn't make any sense. [18:29] But watching this, it actually reminded [18:31] me of Gu Changwei's movie "And the [18:33] Spring Comes." [18:33] You know, in "And the Spring Comes," [18:35] there’s someone who dances ballet. No [18:38] one, no one could accept him. He wanted [18:40] his own living space, but you can't; [18:42] you have to be like everyone else, [18:44] working, getting married, having kids, [18:47] and living a normal life. If you don't [18:49] do that, the environment will always [18:50] disturb and squeeze you. In the end, [18:53] that man, to win himself a bit of... [18:55] My pure...I voluntarily committed a [18:58] crime. [18:59] I pretended to harass women, though I [19:00] didn't actually want to harass anyone. [19:03] I pretended to harass them so you would [19:04] arrest me and lock me up for a while. [19:06] Finally, no one bothered me anymore. In [19:08] prison, I was a key member of the arts [19:11] troupe; I danced in prison, and finally [19:13] , no one disturbed me. It just shows [19:16] that if a person has spiritual pursuits [19:17] that go beyond their environment, how [19:19] difficult it is for them! To gain a [19:23] spiritual space of his own, he has to [19:25] pay such a huge price, even resorting [19:27] to self-harm, like the man in "Lichun" [19:29] or the man who chopped off his finger; [19:31] otherwise, the reality around you won't [19:34] allow you to lead your own spiritual [19:36] life. I have to use such a tragic [19:38] method to win a tiny bit of space for [19:39] myself, to make you all stop bothering [19:41] me and just let me live my life. [19:43] Right, trading his freedom for just [19:44] this little bit of space. Mmhmm. [19:47] I think when Flaubert wrote "Madame [19:48] Bovary," Madame Bovary also felt her [19:50] spirit transcended her environment. [19:52] Her environment, but what was the [19:54] outcome, Flaubert? Flaubert delivered a [19:56] fatal blow to Madame Bovary. He felt [19:58] Madame Bovary was just addicted to [20:00] those adjectives, loving to chat with [20:01] that playboy about things like how nice [20:03] the weather was outside or how the [20:05] flowers were blooming. She felt that [20:07] this way of chatting was what [20:09] transcended her spiritual life, but she [20:11] just couldn't be with her husband, [20:12] Bovary. There wasn't a single good [20:14] person in that village. [20:16] Right. [20:16] Exactly, and in his stories, if such a [20:18] woman's pursuits transcend the [20:20] environment of her time, you see that [20:21] she also ends up moving toward [20:23] destruction. [20:24] And she is mocked by him. [20:27] Transcending one's environment is [20:29] exceptionally difficult, especially [20:30] when that transcendence of yours may [20:32] not even be valuable. Like the [20:35] character in "Divine Diva" who is [20:37] determined to be a great musician, but [20:39] doesn't even know if Mozart was from [20:41] the 17th or 18th century—you might [20:43] not be a true musician after all. But [20:47] we should still allow them to have that [20:48] dream. It reminds me of a girl I [20:52] interviewed in a small county in Hunan; [20:54] she was 30 years old. And unmarried. [20:58] In that small county, all the women get [21:00] married and have children before the [21:02] age of 23. This girl had relatively [21:06] good prospects locally—she worked at [21:08] the Power Bureau, a stable state-run [21:10] unit, with a good family background and [21:12] a decent education. But because she [21:16] didn't have a partner or get married, [21:17] she became an anomaly in the whole [21:19] county. I asked her why that was. She [21:23] said for no reason, she just wanted to [21:25] fall in love. To find someone with [21:27] common interests and then get married, [21:29] but here, people get married without [21:31] falling in love. When was that? [21:33] Over ten years ago. [21:35] Ten years ago isn't that long ago; it's [21:37] still this century. Right, but in a [21:42] small county, the way people date is [21:43] for parents to introduce two families [21:45] with similar backgrounds, then they go [21:47] on a blind date, meet two or three [21:49] times, and if things seem okay, they [21:51] start discussing marriage. [21:54] In reality, there's no such thing as a [21:56] dating phase. People have introduced [21:58] her to some local guys with good [22:00] prospects, but the guys just show up [22:02] and talk about marriage, having kids, [22:04] and things like that, and she refuses [22:06] to enter that stage. [22:08] So there was no way, she couldn't get [22:10] married, and it dragged on until she [22:12] was 30. That's why she's the weirdest [22:14] woman in the whole county. Every other [22:17] woman her age, in their 20s, has [22:19] already gotten a short, permed, curly [22:21] hairstyle. [22:25] Then, yeah, wearing those tight [22:27] leggings, taking care of kids while [22:28] playing mahjong—everyone plays [22:30] mahjong like that—but she’s the [22:32] only one always in a ponytail, wearing [22:34] a white shirt and jeans. A 30-something [22:40] woman with that look doesn't exist in [22:42] this county; whenever she walks out, [22:44] everyone stares at her. If she dresses [22:47] up, everyone whispers, "Look, just look [22:50] .""Dressed up like that, who knows what [22:52] she's up to?""Who is she going to see?" [22:54] If she doesn't dress up when she goes [22:56] out, everyone says, "Look, just look."" [22:58] Doesn't even bother to dress up, do you [23:00] think she'll ever find a man?" It's [23:01] like, either way... [23:02] Everything she does is wrong. [23:04] Everything is wrong. They either [23:05] speculate if there’s something [23:06] physically wrong with you, or they [23:07] speculate if there’s something [23:09] mentally wrong with you. [23:10] She’s constantly being pressured by [23:11] this environment, and she can't even [23:13] explain how she's supposed to handle it [23:14] . [23:14] Yeah. [23:15] I said, "Well, then that's it. If you [23:17] really can't take it, just leave. Go to [23:19] a big city."" [23:20] In Beijing or Shanghai, never mind [23:22] being unmarried at 30, even if you’re [23:24] 60 and unmarried, nobody cares. People [23:26] won't even look at you, or even know [23:28] who you are."" [23:29] So you’ll have some peace and quiet. [23:30] You should go." But she’s afraid. She [23:33] thinks surviving in a big city is too [23:34] hard, so she doesn't dare go. She [23:36] thinks her environment is warm and safe [23:38] , yet she can't accept it either. So [23:40] what can you do? I asked, "What [23:42] solution do you have?" She said, "Right [23:44] now, I’m just buying lottery tickets. [23:45] "" [23:46] If I win the lottery, I'll take a lot [23:47] of money and move to Beijing or [23:49] Shanghai."" [23:50] It would give me a sense of security." [23:51] It would give her security. Right, you [23:54] see, her dream is totally unreliable [23:56] and nonsense, but the difficulty of her [23:59] situation is real. [24:00] Yeah, why did I suddenly recall that [24:02] line someone wrote: what makes people [24:04] suffer is not despair, but hope. True, [24:06] it's always been like that. It has [24:08] always, always, always been a literary [24:10] theme. Look at that, especially in [24:12] English literature, this devastating [24:14] blow to hope has always been a literary [24:16] subject. Take King Lear; he doesn't [24:18] just go mad because his child died, he [24:20] goes mad because of the intense hope [24:22] that Cordelia would come back to life. [24:25] A vast number of those themes are about [24:27] the kind of destruction brought by hope [24:28] . [24:29] Pain. [24:30] So, I had a show from over 20 years ago [24:32] that was recently "archaeologically" [24:34] rediscovered and went viral online, [24:36] actually just because of one line from [24:38] a rural woman from the Northwest. [24:40] Her life was normal, their economy was [24:43] okay and so on, but she said she was [24:45] particularly unsatisfied. I asked, "Why [24:48] are you unhappy? What's wrong?" She [24:52] said, "Life is fine, but here, if a [24:54] woman buys clothes, it's normal."" [24:58] Buying books is abnormal." Yes, I saw [25:01] that. " [25:01] Buying property is normal; wanting to [25:03] travel is abnormal. These are the rules [25:05] , and everyone must obey them.""My body [25:08] is obeying, but my heart is not.""I [25:10] don't want to just be content having [25:12] seen nothing and understood nothing." [25:14] Then her classic line followed: "I [25:16] would rather suffer than be numb." You [25:19] see, what is her pain? It is actually [25:21] hope. [25:22] Mm. [25:23] She wants to see more of the world, she [25:25] wants to read more books, meet more [25:27] people. [25:28] Conversely, women who do not harbor [25:30] this hope. [25:32] People in real life are actually living [25:34] happily; this female guest of mine has [25:36] actually been unhappy her whole life. [25:40] To this day, she is still restless [25:42] inside, but that is precisely because [25:44] she is ahead of others, because she has [25:46] hope for a wider world and a more [25:48] meaningful life. [25:51] Do you feel a sense of intense [25:52] vengeance when you stand on the [25:54] stand-up comedy stage and tell your [25:55] jokes? Do you feel that, at the very [25:58] least, you have a weapon now? [26:00] Well, yes. Actually, when you express [26:02] your dissatisfaction with life on stage [26:04] in the form of jokes, there is [26:06] certainly a sense of power to some [26:07] extent, but sometimes you truly feel a [26:09] sense of powerlessness is actually [26:11] greater. For example, I performed in [26:13] Nanjing last night, and after I [26:15] finished, I saw a person, a mother, who [26:17] sent me a message saying that the whole [26:19] time watching the show was the happiest [26:21] night of her life. I think this is very [26:24] moving in itself, but he said that [26:25] after he walked out of the theater and [26:27] was walking back home alone, he just [26:29] started crying inexplicably, just [26:31] crying and crying. He said he cried all [26:33] the way back to where he was staying. [26:35] Later he said he didn't know, that the [26:36] things they were laughing at were [26:38] actually true. Ah, he felt that many of [26:40] the things he had felt aggrieved or [26:42] dissatisfied about, he had always [26:44] thought he just had to accept that " [26:45] these are just your very delicate [26:47] emotions, and the world doesn't care [26:49] about these emotions of yours." But [26:51] seeing someone, oh, someone showing me [26:53] things I've experienced, it made me [26:55] feel that someone cares about this, my [26:57] pain is valid, my discomfort, my [26:58] awkwardness, all these things—I have [27:00] nothing to doubt myself about, [27:02] wondering if I'm just being pretentious [27:04] . No, everyone is suffering in the same [27:06] way, and it should be taken seriously. [27:08] So, between you and the audience, for [27:10] example, what is your most successful [27:12] bit, the one that resonates the most? [27:14] Well, I once told a bit about going for [27:16] a gynecological exam and treatment, [27:18] because I think for women, these are [27:19] unavoidable moments of shame in life; [27:21] you always walk into that place, and [27:23] the condition is always just a curtain [27:25] hanging there, and then that [27:27] curtain could be pulled open at any [27:28] time, [27:29] and you can't exactly pounce over to [27:30] save the curtain. Exactly, and [27:32] sometimes men just walk right in, and [27:34] you're just hanging there wide open, [27:36] already in a moment of extreme shame [27:38] and awkwardness, with people constantly [27:40] walking in. Then I had one even more [27:43] outrageous experience, I was really [27:44] just hanging there about to have the [27:46] exam. And then the doctor started [27:48] playing on his phone, [27:49] and I was thinking, huh, should I just [27:51] hold this position and wait, or should [27:53] I just, you know, close up a bit? [27:55] You can't really close up. [27:56] Right, so I just kept looking at him. [27:58] Were you afraid at that moment that he [27:59] might be recording a video? Because I [28:01] watched him replying to messages, and I [28:02] thought, "Oh boy, this is a bit urgent, [28:04] maybe I should, should just close up a [28:05] bit." Then I looked at the doctor, and [28:07] I felt like he was finishing typing, [28:09] his body was just turning back, so I [28:10] thought, "Okay, I'm ready." But then he [28:12] turned away again, and I was just like [28:14] a switch being controlled by him, like, [28:15] he kept turning back and forth, and I [28:17] just kept opening and closing. I just [28:19] feel, and there was this one time, for [28:20] example, you're lying there having some [28:22] kind of, what do you call it, a scan. [28:24] Yeah, exactly. You’re just lying [28:26] there exposed, and doctors keep coming [28:27] in to talk about things, and you're [28:29] just stuck there, and nobody cares. The [28:31] fact that the curtain can be pulled [28:32] back at any moment, and people from [28:34] outside can just open the door and walk [28:36] in—I find all of that very [28:37] humiliating, and the way doctors chat [28:39] while they’re examining you. I just, [28:42] I feel like, you know, when women have [28:44] these gynecological exams, there's an [28:46] instrument being inserted, and it's [28:48] being moved around inside. And [28:51] they’re just there chatting, talking [28:52] about other things; the whole process [28:54] is just them talking to you while doing [28:55] it. [28:56] Well, if they don’t talk about that, [28:57] what are they supposed to talk about? [28:58] Right, but the thing is, if they talk [29:00] about the procedure, I feel a bit more [29:01] at ease; if they talk about other stuff [29:02] , it feels even more terrifying. Oh, [29:04] right, they’ll be discussing your [29:05] condition while mixing in other [29:07] conversations; it’s like the [29:08] narrative of your life and the [29:10] narrative of your illness are [29:11] completely intertwined, and I just [29:13] think... [29:13] It’s a lot like the agricultural fair [29:15] scene in Madame Bovary. On one side, [29:17] they’re awarding prizes, and on the [29:18] other, the two of them are flirting. [29:20] Right, right, right. This kind of [29:22] mixture sometimes makes you feel like [29:23] it's all so absurd, and I also find [29:25] that sometimes their attitude is just [29:26] very rough. Like, when you first go in, [29:28] since it’s your first time, you [29:29] don’t know what to do, and they just [29:31] bark an order at you to take your pants [29:32] off. I want to say, "You can just ask [29:34] me to take my pants off, I would have [29:35] done it. It’s not like I’m sitting [29:37] here stubbornly refusing, am I?" Right. [29:39] So with all these things, I personally [29:41] think, "Wow, how shameful. Why am I [29:43] being treated like this?" And I’ll [29:45] talk about this whole process and [29:46] everything on stage. Then a friend told [29:49] me, she said she always felt that— [29:51] maybe she has a gyno exam once a year [29:52] —that day was always a very, very [29:54] difficult day for her, but she said the [29:56] next year when she went for the exam, [29:58] she still felt humiliated, but she [30:00] would distract herself by thinking [30:01] about this bit, and she felt, "Ah, [30:03] it’s a little bit better." Because [30:05] there’s no other way, since the [30:06] situation is still the same. [30:08] So most of your audience is, well, all [30:10] women? [30:10] Actually, I feel like the audience for [30:12] the entire stand-up comedy market is— [30:13] well, I haven't done a formal survey— [30:15] I'd say about 80%[female]. That's what [30:17] I don't quite understand. You look at [30:19] shows like the Roast Convention, and [30:20] the shots of the audience are always [30:22] long-haired girls wearing black masks. [30:24] I wonder if they're canned audiences or [30:25] if it's really all women. [30:27] Uh, there are just more female audience [30:29] members. [30:29] Why don't male viewers like to watch it [30:31] ? [30:31] Why is that? [30:31] Hmm, I think... [30:33] It's stress relief. [30:34] Yes, first of all, I think women are [30:35] more willing to find some legitimate [30:37] forms of entertainment for themselves, [30:39] some... [30:39] Men like illegitimate forms of fun, [30:41] right? No need to say more, these are [30:43] legitimate, spiritual-level pleasures. [30:45] Yes, they're a bit more sophisticated. [30:47] Then secondly, I think women are very [30:49] willing to affirm and praise the good [30:51] qualities in others. Whether it's male [30:53] humor or female humor, female audiences [30:56] truly appreciate it. Maybe guys [30:58] generally think they are quite funny [30:59] themselves, so they think, "How could [31:01] someone possibly be funnier than me?" I [31:03] once went to a live stand-up show, and [31:04] the host was talking, and a guy in the [31:06] audience was like, "You've been [31:07] standing there with your arms crossed; [31:09] let's see you make me laugh." That's [31:10] how guys generally feel. They have this [31:12] defensive posture of, "Let me see, who [31:14] could possibly be funnier than me?" I [31:16] have a female friend who told me she [31:17] took her boyfriend to a stand-up show. [31:20] They felt that when it came to [31:21] gender-related jokes, women— [31:22] regardless of whether they're being [31:24] made fun of— [31:25] Actually, it's usually just roasting, [31:27] not much praise. She would think, "This [31:29] is me, this is me, I am this person." [31:31] But men would think, "That's definitely [31:32] not me."" [31:33] This can't be me."" [31:34] They must be talking about the guys [31:35] sitting next to me." [31:35] Right, it's just that women find it [31:37] easier to relate to those universal [31:38] meanings in the jokes. Mm-hmm, [31:40] certainly. I have a slightly different [31:41] opinion on what you all were just [31:43] discussing. Including what Professor [31:46] Zhang Yu was saying, about that person [31:48] in the show—I feel like there's a [31:50] sense that "leaving for faraway places" [31:52] is currently favored, as if women are [31:54] trapped in small towns and have less [31:56] right to "leave for faraway places." [31:59] But sometimes I also feel that our TV [32:01] dramas, and even our literature and art [32:03] , are a bit too eager to encourage [32:05] women to go and "leave for faraway [32:07] places." Including, so, I, I, I would, [32:09] for example, in TV dramas like*Minning [32:11] Town*, the characters played by Huang [32:12] Xuan and Re Yizha, they broke up, but [32:14] Re Yizha and her husband were quite [32:16] good, and later, even when his leg was [32:18] damaged and he became disabled, she [32:20] still managed to settle down in life. I [32:22] think this ability is also truly [32:23] remarkable. I feel that sometimes, I [32:25] think our TV dramas—I don't know if [32:27] the talk show world shares this concept [32:29] —are overly encouraging women to feel [32:30] like they need to rebel against their [32:32] current lives, or that their current [32:34] lives just aren't good enough. I just [32:36] think that being able to immerse [32:37] yourself and settle down in life is [32:39] also a kind of ability. I have many [32:41] junior fellow students who, in the [32:43] usual sense, might be called "leftover [32:45] women," and I think maybe they've read [32:46] too many novels or have been too [32:48] influenced by that kind of literary [32:50] education, so they feel there's a [32:51] better man waiting for them in the [32:53] distance, and they need to go out and [32:55] find him. But often, being able to [32:57] settle down in life, I think, is also a [32:59] very, very, very necessary ability. [33:02] Whether this poop can be moved depends [33:04] on pure luck. [33:07] Actually, the reality of life for the [33:09] most part is that if you have the [33:11] ability to settle your own heart, you [33:12] can be at peace wherever you are; if [33:14] you can't settle it, you will be [33:16] restless wherever you go. Yeah, yeah, [33:20] it's about organizing the order of your [33:22] own inner world. And actually, [33:23] happiness is something that requires a [33:26] lot of effort; sorrow, on the other [33:27] hand, doesn't require much effort at [33:29] all—it's very easy to be sad. For [33:32] example, with these popular books by [33:34] professional parenting experts or their [33:36] interviews, to me, it's not so much [33:38] about the theories themselves, but that [33:40] they show you a possibility—like, "Oh [33:41] , so it can be like that." Like you [33:44] said about the poop, or about him using [33:46] his phone; if you show me another [33:48] possibility where he could also be very [33:50] respectful of you, and I know this [33:52] exists, even if I can't get that here, [33:54] I can accept that. I think I can accept [33:56] that. But if you don't even tell me [33:58] that the possibility of someone [34:00] treating me well exists, then that I [34:01] cannot accept. [34:02] Actually, I feel the most important [34:04] thing is acceptance. I am a Libra, and [34:07] Libras love to look at every single [34:09] thing from the left, right, front, and [34:11] back, trying to think it through and [34:13] make it fair. [34:15] The middle. [34:15] Yes, so for instance, when you were [34:17] telling that story, what I was thinking [34:19] in my head was, okay. If I go for a [34:21] check-up and the curtain is pulled back [34:23] at any moment, or the doctor is texting [34:25] on the side, I would get very angry, [34:27] right? [34:28] Yeah. But I have to think, this is a [34:30] very special moment for me, so I demand [34:32] that others go all out, take this [34:34] moment of mine very seriously, and not [34:36] get distracted. But for the doctor, [34:39] this is just their daily routine, their [34:41] life's daily routine; they do this [34:43] countless times a day, so it's not that [34:45] important to them. [34:46] They have other things to do, and that [34:47] other thing is someone sending them a [34:49] message, and now they just need to [34:50] reply to a message. [34:51] Don't you reply to messages when you [34:52] work? Exactly, we also reply to [34:54] messages when we work, so this isn't [34:56] unacceptable. As for people just [34:58] walking in, theoretically, no one [34:59] should just push the door open and walk [35:01] into any consultation room. Right. [35:04] In fact, no hospital nurse lets [35:05] patients just push the door open, which [35:07] is why a call number system is set up. [35:10] Whoever is called can go in; if you're [35:12] not called, you can't go in. But there [35:14] are many clueless patients who just [35:16] push the door and walk in. [35:18] It is rude, but think about their [35:20] educational background and their daily [35:22] habits. In their life, who would often [35:25] say to them, "Please come in, may I [35:27] come in?" They haven't had that life [35:30] experience; most of the time they are [35:32] just casual and carefree, so they just [35:34] come in. They don't have any malice; [35:36] it's just their habit. You can touch [35:39] their face too, and they won't get [35:41] angry, or they might touch your face, [35:43] and they wouldn't mind either. Yes, [35:45] that's just how it is. So my [35:47] understanding of Japanese women was [35:49] simply stuck in the "foreigners coming [35:51] to us during the Qing Dynasty with [35:53] pigtails" era. My impression of [35:55] Japanese women was still like you said, [35:57] like Mayumi, that very docile feeling; [35:59] turns out it’s already like this now. [36:02] They showed me this possibility, this [36:04] diversity, which made me feel that, [36:06] okay, maybe I can't be like them in my [36:08] life, but I know now that there is such [36:10] rich diversity. [36:12] Because, in fact, this female autonomy [36:14] and the pluralism of female culture [36:16] must be backed by modernization and [36:18] urbanization. Japan entered [36:20] modernization and urbanization earlier [36:22] than we did, so in this regard, they [36:23] must be further ahead and started [36:25] earlier than us. This is very [36:26] consistent with Japan's patriarchal [36:28] culture; I think where there is [36:30] oppression, there is resistance. Their [36:32] patriarchal power is a bit too heavy, [36:34] isn't it? Only under such oppression [36:36] would so much sharp and precise [36:37] resistance emerge. When can we see a [36:40] completely different kind of woman in [36:41] our domestic TV dramas? [36:43] Japan actually has problems with [36:44] feminism, but it also has problems with [36:46] patriarchal power. It’s not just [36:48] about Japan, it’s like this all over [36:50] the world. We talk about feminism or [36:51] women's rights all day long, but there [36:53] are also huge problems with patriarchal [36:55] power itself. Men are under pressure [36:57] all day long; with the current economic [36:58] downturn, how are men supposed to [37:00] support their families? That pressure [37:02] falls squarely on men. Men actually [37:04] need to fight for their own rights too. [37:06] When we discuss feminism now, these [37:08] issues regarding men should probably be [37:10] brought up as well. [37:11] The victims under a patriarchal society [37:13] are not just on one side. [37:15] Yes, they certainly don't necessarily [37:17] have less pressure than we do, although [37:19] we also bear immense pressure. [37:21] In all countries, the average life [37:23] expectancy of men is lower than that of [37:25] women, and the suicide rate of men is [37:26] higher than that of women. [37:28] Then you know who bears more pressure. [37:31] Perhaps our endurance is stronger, but [37:33] in TV dramas, regardless of whether [37:35] it's men or women, looks still seem to [37:37] matter. It seems to be more true for [37:40] women; looks are still a hard currency. [37:42] Is beauty justice? That's what they say [37:44] all day long. [37:44] But for stand-up comedians, it seems [37:46] like now they are talking about female [37:47] comedians. [37:47] Mhm. [37:48] I don't know if this is offensive, but [37:49] there's a saying that they can't be too [37:51] pretty. [37:51] It's not that they can't be too pretty. [37:55] My own feeling is that, first of all, a [37:57] very pretty girl would never think, "I [37:59] need to be funny to make people like me [38:01] ." That's actually... [38:03] But you aren't funny just to make [38:04] people like you, right? [38:05] In fact, deep down, you definitely want [38:07] people to like you initially; it’s [38:08] impossible to be funny hoping that [38:10] people will dislike you. [38:11] It's not that I think I have this [38:13] talent and I want to express it, [38:14] because... [38:14] But the result of what you show is [38:16] definitely that people like you. You [38:17] know, when I was a child, my first [38:19] dream in life was to be a stand-up [38:21] comedian, really. When I was young, [38:23] after I filled my first piggy bank—it [38:25] was three yuan and thirty-five cents— [38:27] I bought a book of monologue scripts. [38:29] Those old Shanghai monologue skits, I [38:31] could recite them all. But in our [38:34] generation, there were very, very few [38:36] women on stage. Your roles were limited [38:39] to only a few. [38:40] There were hardly any female performers [38:42] on stage. There are some one-person [38:43] shows, you have to be very, very bold, [38:45] you know, and if that’s not your [38:47] personality, it’s unlikely, but you [38:49] have many female stand-up comedians now [38:51] . [38:51] And they’re very diverse, there are [38:52] all sorts of types. Well, I think first [38:54] of all, the first point is—and this [38:56] isn't to offend anyone—I feel that [38:58] regarding our evaluation of looks, we [38:59] shouldn't assume being pretty is always [39:01] praise, or being ugly is always [39:02] belittling. I think it’s just an [39:04] objective fact; people don't make that [39:05] big of a deal of it. [39:06] So there is "beauty discrimination," [39:08] right? If you're too good-looking, you [39:09] get discriminated against by you guys. [39:10] I—we don't, we wouldn't discriminate [39:12] against anyone for being good-looking. [39:13] Being good-looking is always a stroke [39:15] of luck for them; there’s nothing to [39:16] discriminate against. But my feeling is [39:19] that if a girl has been naturally [39:20] beautiful her whole life, in her [39:22] upbringing, she rarely has the [39:23] realization that "I need to become a [39:25] particularly interesting person," [39:27] because she has already gained so much [39:29] attention. Often, it's the more [39:32] average-looking kids who hope that by [39:33] being funny and interesting, others [39:35] will want to hang out with them. And I [39:38] think there's a lot of self-deprecation [39:40] in stand-up, and behind that [39:41] self-deprecation is actually a lot of [39:43] life's helplessness. [39:44] Right, right, right. [39:45] Those drop-dead gorgeous, likable girls [39:47] don't have that much sense of [39:49] helplessness. Yeah, that’s me. We [39:52] once made a show where we provided [39:53] scripts for female celebrities and let [39:55] them perform stand-up routines. [39:58] Actually, everyone's stories were good; [40:00] everyone worked very hard to write them [40:02] , and those actresses performed them [40:04] quite seriously, and they actually told [40:06] them well. As actors, their command of [40:10] the lines and their level of effort [40:12] were excellent, but I think where it [40:13] didn't hold up was that the audience [40:15] doesn't believe in the pain of [40:16] beautiful women. Pain? [40:19] Yes. [40:20] The audience thinks, "Huh?"" [40:21] How could that be?"" [40:23] What kind of pain can't be solved by [40:24] your beauty?" This is how people feel [40:27] in this era where looks are everything. [40:30] It’s hard for beautiful women to be [40:32] truly funny because people just think [40:33] your beauty can smooth over all the [40:35] scars in your life. Just imagine, if [ [40:38] an average person] stands there and [40:40] says anything at all about their own [40:41] helplessness in life, everyone thinks [40:43] it’s hilarious, but if you swap that [40:45] with a great beauty saying the same [40:47] thing, it’s just not believable. [40:50] Aren't there those quotes online [40:51] attributed to Mark Twain? They’re so [40:54] wise, but you never know if he actually [40:55] said them or not. For instance, this [40:58] honor, while excellent, cannot keep you [41:00] warm on a Friday night; you can't have [41:02] everything all at once. My goodness, if [41:05] this is truly them, being so incredibly [41:07] wise, I feel their beauty has simply [41:10] held them back. [41:11] Menglu is super smart, and on set, when [41:13] not acting, they are always reading. [41:15] Otherwise, how could they have married [41:17] that ASM? M wouldn't have settled for [41:19] them either. M isn't just a pretty face [41:22] , but Mu actually has some very serious [41:24] mental, mental-type, well, all sorts of [41:26] ailments. This is partly caused by [41:28] being smart, and partly caused by the, [41:30] the intense pressure. But in our film [41:33] and television dramas, can we choose a [41:34] lead actress who is unremarkable in [41:36] appearance and faces all sorts of [41:38] awkward situations? We do see that. [41:40] It's actually quite rare in domestic [41:42] dramas; for instance, the roles in " [41:44] Three Ads" aren't exactly the tough [41:45] type. When we write TV series, for [41:48] example, we rarely give screen time to [41:51] women over 35. So, "B for Busy" was [41:53] done very well because it suddenly felt [41:55] like we had a group of middle-aged [41:57] actresses—averaging around 40 years [41:59] old—who were still active on screen [42:01] and quite beautiful. Unlike in the past [42:04] , where any female lead over 35 [42:06] appeared as if they had already been [42:08] defeated by life, looking completely [42:10] battered. [42:11] Don't be so serious. Because the woman [42:24] has passed, [42:29] Because that "Waves of the World" is [42:31] still fat, [42:36] Shao Hui has so little fat. In the [42:43] whole film and television industry, [42:45] there are many middle-aged male actors [42:47] who can shine, including, for instance, [42:49] "The Knockout," but the space for [42:51] middle-aged female actresses is really [42:53] very small. [42:54] Do you communicate with those [42:55] screenwriters? Have they talked about [42:57] this? I [42:57] I rarely communicate with screenwriters [42:59] . I think, speaking of "B for Busy" [43:02] just now, the reason it could present [43:04] middle-aged women on screen with the [43:05] grace they deserve—whether in terms [43:07] of their beauty or otherwise—is [43:09] because the director is someone like [43:11] Shao Hui, right, born in the 90s. [43:14] Yes, in his own life, he is someone who [43:16] strongly supports the various [43:17] developments of women. He wrote the [43:19] script bit by bit himself and then [43:20] filmed it. [43:21] And he has also experienced many [43:23] setbacks. Yes, yes, yes, exactly. [43:25] Because he himself is someone who [43:26] deeply cares about women's growth. [43:28] It’s really about women entering [43:29] various fields and growing stronger. We [43:32] don't necessarily have to be dominant, [43:34] but if you don't even exist in a field, [43:36] you can’t make things happen. Even if [43:39] you start as a minority, you might [43:40] eventually become half, and then the [43:42] majority. Then what you can control, [43:44] and what you can express, I think, [43:46] becomes much more. Being a female [43:48] stand-up comedian, I really think, is [43:50] an incredibly difficult thing. [43:52] Because you have to be able to let go [43:54] of yourself completely. [43:55] Mm. [43:56] I dare say men also have to let go of [43:58] themselves. [43:58] Well, it’s much easier for men. [44:00] It’s about daring to turn myself into [44:02] a joke. [44:02] Men have a tradition. [44:04] To let others treat me as a joke—men [44:06] can do that; in any environment, [44:08] there’s always one or two guys like [44:10] that. Very few girls are willing to let [44:13] others treat them as a joke. [44:15] So, you either self-deprecate, [44:17] attacking yourself and living as a joke [44:19] , or you attack others. You mock others [44:21] , and the result of mocking others is [44:22] that they hit back at you. Isn't that [44:24] what Yang Li does? [44:25] Mm. [44:26] Is that the experience? [44:28] What do you want to say? What do you [44:29] want to say? [44:30] What do you want to say? [44:31] No, no, no, no, no. [44:33] But offense is essentially the nature [44:34] of comedy, isn't it? Isn't that just [44:35] being on stage, leading a crowd to talk [44:37] trash about others? Either talk about [44:38] yourself or talk about others, right? [44:40] Or talk about your ex? [44:41] Ah, right! Your ex is also "others," [44:43] after all. If everyone stands together [44:44] to praise someone, absolutely no one [44:46] will laugh. So, you must all roast [44:47] something together. Professor Liu had a [44:49] quote I find quite interesting. He said [44:51] , "The ultimate test of friendship is [44:52] whether you can talk trash about other [44:53] people together." [44:54] Wasn't that said by Wang Shuo? I think [44:56] so. But doing this in private is fine. [45:01] In a public setting, for a girl to dare [45:03] to—— [45:05] attack others, that’s seen as so [45:07] unladylike and improper. And to make a [45:09] joke of yourself, that’s also seen as [45:11] so unsightly and inappropriate. [45:13] Right, it’s about breaking [45:14] traditional female qualities. [45:15] That’s why it’s hard. That’s why [45:17] female stand-up comedians have it tough [45:19] , and why female performers have it [45:20] tough. But in reality, does there still [45:22] exist this feeling that you need to [45:24] have a career while also having a home [45:25] life? It’s like... [45:27] Right, you need to be independent, but [45:29] not*too*independent. [45:30] For example, I read a report a while [45:32] ago about an Indian-American woman who [45:34] was the CEO who saved PepsiCo. Even her [45:36] mom told her, "Coming home to buy [45:38] groceries is still your job." [45:40] Oh, [45:41] You might think her mother is very [45:43] feudal, but at the same time, you might [45:45] also find her quite wise. Hmm, [45:49] It’s just real life, if you look at [45:51] it, it’s like this: if you choose to [45:53] have a family and all that entails, [45:55] aren't you ultimately returning to [45:56] reality? [45:59] Take that show you just mentioned, for [46:01] example, you said, "Oh, women can cheat [46:03] too." I’m telling you, it happened, [46:05] but in the show, she was condemned for [46:07] it, right? [46:08] Yes, she ended up getting divorced. [46:11] Including the person writing in this [46:13] script, at her age, she wrote a lot [46:14] about how she views desire in songs or [46:16] poems—like flames rising on a [46:18] mountain—she says at my age I totally [46:20] get it, while my daughter’s age, in [46:22] their teens or twenties, they still [46:23] don’t understand. She said this quite [46:27] proudly, yet she would also constantly [46:29] mention that she had never betrayed her [46:31] husband, and so on; there’s still a [46:32] line there. Is it that women still [46:34] can't just act lawlessly? [46:35] No human can act lawlessly, right? [46:38] Humans still have some basic rules to [46:40] follow. Putting it that way, I have a [46:43] very optimistic thought. I think if you [46:47] look at TV dramas, in the beginning, it [46:49] was actually men admiring women; the [46:51] male gaze was dominant. [46:53] Right, so TV dramas had to have very [46:55] beautiful, very gentle, and very cute [46:58] female characters to cater to the [47:00] tastes of the mainstream audience. [47:02] But today, things have actually changed [47:04] . You know, in TV dramas, female [47:06] characters are no longer the ones [47:08] people like; it has to be the male [47:09] characters. Why? Because the mainstream [47:12] audience is now female, and women like [47:14] to watch men. [47:15] So now all the likable characters have [47:17] to be male. It’s women watching men [47:20] now, which is completely different from [47:22] before. And I think moving forward, in [47:26] the past two years, I’ve clearly seen [47:28] that Chinese women, especially urban [47:30] women, are particularly sensitive to [47:32] self-awareness. [47:33] Mm. [47:35] They love to analyze and understand [47:36] their own lives. If that’s the case, [47:40] I think in a few years—because [47:41] creative work always lags behind [47:43] reality— [47:46] So in a few years, we will likely see [47:48] many TV dramas that express themes of [47:50] women's living situations and personal [47:52] growth. Many middle-aged actresses are [47:56] very worried right now because [47:57] everything is just about young "eye [47:59] candy." Even exceptionally talented [48:03] actors like Zhou Xun can find [48:04] themselves with no roles in middle age, [48:06] but I think in a few more years, [48:08] talented middle-aged actresses will [48:09] have plenty of work, because urban [48:11] women in China are reaching a point [48:13] where they need to recognize themselves [48:15] . [48:16] Is it really that optimistic? [48:17] This also requires female screenwriters [48:19] to step up, because male writers can't [48:21] fully reflect the struggles of women, [48:23] their growth, and the many trivial [48:24] daily problems they face on the path to [48:26] maturity; in fact, female writers need [48:28] to write those stories themselves. [48:30] You're right, it's up to them. No, no, [48:32] no, it's not that optimistic. Back in [48:34] 2006, it seemed you said domestic [48:36] dramas were about to become the pride [48:38] of all Asia, but later you felt...maybe [48:40] not. Yes, yes, I've slapped my own face [48:42] a few times on that. Back in 2006, I [48:45] really felt we were about to take off, [48:47] and by 2009, it was absolutely [48:49] explosive, because that year*Lurk*, * [48:51] Dwelling Narrowness*, and*My Chief and [48:54] My Regiment*all came out. I thought it [48:57] was our big year; at that time, I felt [48:58] Chinese film and television were about [49:00] to take down Hollywood. Then, right [49:02] after*Lurk*became a hit, a hundred " [49:04] Lurks" appeared, and has it just been [49:06] going up and down like that ever since? [49:09] I also hope that Chinese female-led [49:11] dramas can rise, but we can't just rely [49:13] on the fact that we have female [49:15] audiences or what seems like a shift in [49:17] power to make it happen, so I don't [49:18] think it's that optimistic. It's like [49:23] the frustration Xiaolu mentioned [49:24] earlier—you perform stand-up for [49:26] people, but there are so many people in [49:28] life who are constrained and troubled, [49:30] and they can't get happiness from you. [49:33] Actually, I just think it doesn't [49:34] matter; you can't save everyone, you [49:36] can't bring happiness to everyone, but [49:38] the fact that you are there—that in [49:40] itself has value. Look at what's here: [49:43] there's stand-up comedy, with boys [49:45] performing and girls performing; there [49:47] are concerts, with boys singing and [49:49] girls singing. It's just like Michelle [49:50] Yeoh winning the award; the [49:51] significance of the win itself is [49:53] greater than the significance of the [49:54] film. [49:55] It's just that such diverse ways of [49:57] life exist, and if boys can do it and [49:59] girls can do it too, that's enough. I [50:04] think for many, many girls who haven't [50:06] entered this environment yet, this is [50:08] already a significant enough source of [50:10] hope, goals, strength, and validation. [50:14] Regarding what Teacher Zhang Yuan said, [50:16] I suddenly remembered my two young [50:17] nieces. When I went home for the New [50:20] Year, these two children left a deep [50:22] impression on me. The older sister [50:24] often asks her younger sister, "Am I [50:26] funny?" The fact that she asks this has [50:29] already become a new kind of value. [50:31] Yes, she does something, then asks her [50:33] sister if she's funny. Her sister gets [50:35] happy, she feels satisfied, and we also [50:37] praise her for being funny. I really [50:40] think this is indeed a... [50:41] It’s true, because in the past, girls [50:43] would only ask if they were cute. How [50:45] would they ever ask if they were funny? [50:46] But this also has to do with short-form [50:48] videos, not entirely just stand-up [50:50] comedy, because ever since short-form [50:52] videos emerged, comedy has... [50:54] First of all, the whole society’s [50:56] demand for happiness means that I think [50:58] it’s truly remarkable that being [51:00] funny can actually start to become a [51:01] merit in children. In our generation, [51:04] it was impossible for "being funny" to [51:06] be considered a merit. Especially for [51:07] girls, if they were funny, people would [51:09] just think they were foolish. [51:10] But humor mainly just turns boys into [51:12] buddies, you know? [51:13] Yes, it’s true. Humor has always been [51:15] , because humor as a thing is [51:17] inherently counter to traditional [51:19] femininity. It represents your [51:21] intelligence, because humor is actually [51:23] your ability to synthesize information. [51:27] If you want to make others laugh, you [51:28] have to think faster and perhaps more [51:30] incisively than them. So, in terms of [51:33] intelligence, it means at that moment, [51:35] they are intellectually ahead of [51:37] everyone else. [51:38] Do you have male audience members [51:40] cheering for you? [51:41] Never. That’s impossible. When male [51:43] audience members cheer, it’s because [51:44] they find it funny and happy, but [51:45] there’s no next step. Whereas female [51:47] audience members’ fondness for male [51:48] stand-up comedians does have a next [51:50] step. I mean, male audience members... [51:52] What kind of next step are you [51:53] expecting? [51:54] The next step, for instance, when [51:56] female audience members cheer for or [51:58] like a male stand-up comedian, their [52:00] next thought might be, if he’s single [52:02] , could we potentially date? They might [52:05] have such thoughts. But all the [52:06] fondness I get from male audience [52:08] members is just, they don't have that [52:10] in their hearts; they aren't asking [52:11] themselves if they like me. [52:13] Yes, it’s all just action. [52:16] Yes, that’s exactly it. I’m not [52:20] saying your abilities must be [52:22] translated into the marriage market, [52:23] but what I mean is that the current [52:25] reality is your humor creates distance [52:27] from many potential romantic [52:29] relationships, whereas for men, it [52:30] enhances them. [52:34] It isn't a sexy thing. Is it not? Does [52:36] it... [52:37] No, just following that concept, humor [52:40] in women isn't really a sexual thing. [52:43] You are so humorous. [52:44] Oh, am I? Humorous. [52:47] People even call your writing style the [52:48] "Mao style," and didn't they even hold [52:50] a symposium on it? [52:52] When I first started writing a column, [52:53] people didn't know if I was a man or a [52:55] woman, and I personally preferred [52:57] writing from a neutral position. So, I [53:00] received a lot of love letters, but [53:02] they were all from girls—all girls— [53:04] because they thought I was a man. At [53:06] that time, East China Normal University [53:08] even set up a special mail slot for me, [53:10] like a dedicated box for "Mao" letters, [53:12] and they would arrive in batches. [53:13] Mhm. [53:15] Which decade was that? [53:17] That was when I started writing a [53:18] column for the Hong Kong Economic [53:20] Journal. For a while, I was writing for [53:22] several papers at the same time, so [53:24] people could see my columns back then. [53:26] I really did like to write with a [53:27] neutral tone back then. I was [53:29] particularly afraid of being labeled as [53:31] writing "little woman" prose or "little [53:33] woman" articles, so when I used the [53:35] first person, I made it hard to tell if [53:37] I was male or female. So for a long [53:39] time, people kept writing me love [53:41] letters—well, not exactly love [53:42] letters, but expressions of admiration. [53:44] It got to the point where the mailroom [53:46] at East China Normal had to set up a [53:48] dedicated bin for me; whenever they saw [53:50] "Mao Jian," they’d just toss it in. [53:52] Once, when I went to pick it up, I saw [53:53] the old man just tossing the letters in [53:55] there. [53:57] So those girls misunderstood you for a [53:59] man, and they fell for this very wise [54:01] man. [54:02] They found me quite interesting. Also, [54:04] because my writing at the time was [54:05] largely about criticizing current [54:06] events, I was perhaps quite popular [54:08] with literary-minded young women. [54:09] Right, there is a question here: why is [54:11] it that whenever we see exceptionally [54:13] wise writing or incredibly intelligent [54:15] people, we instinctively assume they [54:17] must be men? [54:18] Around 2020, people weren't as [54:19] expressive or passionate as they are [54:21] now; they were still quite reserved. [54:25] Relatively speaking, most people asked [54:27] me to play table tennis or basketball. [54:29] Exactly. [54:30] Their humor was, as you said, like a [54:32] small knife. [54:33] Because my name is quite masculine, too [54:35] . [54:35] It was precise and sharp. [54:37] Yes. [54:38] It hits the nail on the head. Behind it [54:41] is rationality and high intelligence; [54:42] this definitely won't make men see you [54:44] as just a cute girl. Do you find it [54:47] threatening? Men would find it [54:48] threatening. [54:50] Because it keeps you at a distance; it [54:52] doesn't necessarily trigger any special [54:54] emotional connection. [54:56] It's appreciation; men would still [54:58] appreciate it. [54:59] Girls would send me photos of Andy Lau [55:00] they liked, or photos of the Four [55:02] Heavenly Kings they were into. I [55:03] received so many photos of the Four [55:05] Heavenly Kings. [55:06] Hey, they just imagined me as Andy Lau. [55:09] How would you reply? [55:10] I didn't reply, how could I? [55:13] Just reply one by one. [55:14] Note: female, then send it back. [55:16] Because it was quite nice back then, as [55:18] everyone wrote anonymously. There was [55:21] no distinction between men and women, [55:23] so many people would take you for a man [55:24] , which was quite wonderful. [55:26] Quite wonderful. [55:28] So, has anyone ever said to you, "Oh, I [55:30] know now that you're a woman, I thought [55:32] you were a man.""But I still like you." [55:34] No, no, never. Of course, I didn't look [55:38] at them that seriously later on, [55:39] because there were just too many of [55:41] them, they just kept coming. [55:45] Now that everyone knows you are a woman [55:46] , do some men write you love letters? [55:50] Very few now. [55:51] But have there been some before? [55:53] Yes, there have. I once received a [55:55] rather disappointing letter from a man. [55:58] He felt that, he said, "Your articles [56:00] are very sexy." He said, "I didn't [56:02] expect that in person, you'd be quite [56:04] domestic." It was a huge blow to me, [56:06] feeling as if I had been destroyed by [56:08] the word "domestic." [56:10] What does "quite domestic" mean to him? [56:13] Yes, because we met at an event, and [56:14] perhaps while I was doing the event, I [56:16] talked about how I take care of my [56:18] children and so on. Because at that [56:21] time I wrote a lot of articles online, [56:23] for instance, writing about [56:25] homosexuality, about girls who cheated, [56:27] or girls who were quite aggressive, [56:28] people would think I was unconventional [56:30] . But when they met me, they’d find [56:34] me talking about baby diapers, and [56:36] they’d be very disappointed, thinking [56:38] I should be more like this edgy persona [56:39] . [56:41] Someone with piercings all over, [56:42] wearing hoops, sporting purple lipstick [56:45] —but when we met, I was just plain [56:46] and modest, wearing glasses like a [56:48] schoolteacher. [56:49] Yeah. [56:50] It’s just so incredibly [56:51] disillusioning for them, you know? They [56:55] even sent me a book by Sartre, as if [56:57] that was the kind of life I was [56:58] supposed to be living. [57:03] So, yes, I’ve always felt that I [57:05] personally am more willing to just " [57:07] settle down" in life, and I think that [57:09] has a lot to do with those experiences. [57:12] I feel that settling down in life [57:14] requires such immense courage, wisdom, [57:17] and capability. Even regarding what you [57:19] mentioned earlier about getting a [57:20] gynecological exam, being hung out [57:22] there—your generation of girls might [57:24] feel it's naked and exposed, but for [57:25] our generation, it was really nothing. [57:27] It truly was nothing. Because back then [57:29] , our physical exams were all like that [57:31] . The doctor would come in, and we'd [57:33] all just take our clothes off together [57:35] for the check-up. Since we lived in a [57:37] collective environment, we were [57:39] conditioned to feel a kind of shared [57:41] indifference; even that sense of shame [57:43] was the same, it wasn't really a big [57:44] deal. But do you think there are jokes [57:48] that men can tell, but you can't? Is [57:50] there such a thing as "female humor"? [57:52] Well, I think there might be a little [57:54] bit, like, men find it easier to make [57:56] dirty jokes, perhaps. I—I don't think [57:58] so, because I believe it's just a [57:59] matter of comedy technique. If your [58:01] comedy skills are up to par, what you [58:03] call "dirty jokes" are really just [58:04] jokes related to sex, which is a [58:06] fundamental human resonance. There's no [58:08] reason to label them as high or low [58:09] brow. I don't feel there are any taboos [58:11] for me. As long as I think something [58:13] has a funny point in it, I’m very [58:15] willing to try it. I don't think it [58:17] would be an issue. [58:18] Would you ever worry that some things [58:20] are too offensive and might offend [58:21] people, or that others might come after [58:23] you and criticize you? Have you ever [58:25] been criticized? [58:26] Of course I have. Everyone gets [58:27] criticized. [58:28] So, do you hold back a bit because of [58:30] that? [58:30] Actually, I think it's a process of [58:32] growth. When you first get criticized, [58:33] you definitely feel very agitated, and [58:35] you start to doubt yourself, wondering [58:36] if there's really something wrong with [58:38] your material. [58:39] And then you just become free. [58:40] Exactly. I just feel that I should [58:42] stick to the expressions I find funny. [58:44] We all have some funny biases, and [58:45] I’m just a funny person. If you find [58:47] what I say funny, or think it's such a [58:49] strange perspective on something so [58:51] absurd, then I feel my purpose has been [58:53] served. Isn't there Ali Wong in your [58:56] stand-up comedy world? Is she popular? [58:58] Doesn't she have a very bold style? She [58:59] tells a lot of jokes, like when she was [59:01] heavily pregnant on stage, she still [59:03] told jokes. I was thinking, I can't [59:05] believe a woman can make those kinds of [59:06] jokes, even joking about her own kids. [59:08] For example, she said, "Standing here [59:10] talking, you might ask me who's at home [59:12] taking care of the kids? I’ll tell [59:13] you, the television is taking care of [59:15] my kids, and the windows are even left [59:17] open." To be able to say something like [59:19] that—she has a lot of very explicit [59:20] material that I don't think even men [59:22] would necessarily say. But didn't she [59:24] recently get divorced? I find it [59:26] strange. People feel a sense of pity, [59:28] like it didn't align with social norms, [59:30] and then...Her mom even said, "Couldn't [59:32] you wait until I’m dead to get [59:34] divorced? I get a million calls a day, [59:36] I’ve been humiliated a million times. [59:38] " Right, about her divorce—actually, [59:40] before that, she released her third [59:41] special, and the content in that third [59:43] special was constantly talking about [59:44] how her marriage was a disaster. [59:46] But didn't people think it was just a [59:47] joke? You can't take it seriously, [59:49] right? [59:49] The reality was that she was incredibly [59:51] bored in her marriage; she just [59:52] expressed it through comedy. Shortly [59:54] after that special was released, she [59:56] got divorced. She probably just got a [59:58] divorce to date freely and avoid [59:59] cheating. Right, and now she’s in the [60:01] U.S., and she’s already started a new [60:03] special. In her new special—some [60:06] friends went to see it while we were in [60:08] the U.S.—she talks about how happy [60:10] she is dating now as a single, wealthy [60:12] woman. [60:14] She’s inspired new material. [60:16] I remember his most famous point, when [60:18] a female CEO wrote a book saying women [60:20] should "lean in" and work harder, he [60:22] asked why we should do that. He said [60:24] for thousands of years we've let men be [60:25] at the front, why should we be the ones [60:27] to charge forward? He said we should [60:29] lean back instead. I realized he has a [60:31] gift: he uses his gender with such ease [60:33] . He doesn't get boxed in, which is [60:35] great. [60:36] He says, "I'm a woman, I'm in a weaker [60:38] position, and I'm using that." [60:39] Like in*The Seven Husbands of Evelyn [60:41] Hugo*, they talk about "dressing like a [60:43] woman." She said, "Sometimes I dress [60:45] very femininely, just to deal with the [60:47] media." And then, someone mentioned [60:49] that for a period, there were many [60:50] artsy men chasing her, or kind of [60:52] harassing her, and she said, "How do I [60:54] deal with them?" I just show them my [60:57] expensive bag and scare them off. "She [60:58] knows how to use these things; she says [61:00] you need a clear consciousness of how [61:02] you are utilizing them. Even prejudices [61:05] against women can be your weapons. [61:07] They are all very clear about what the [61:09] rules are. [61:11] And they are thinking whether to use [61:13] them mischievously or stereotypically. [61:15] You mentioned Ali Wong earlier; didn't [61:17] she say something about" leaning in "in [61:19] the middle of her set? She said," I [61:20] don't want to lean in, I want to lie [61:22] down. " [61:22] Yes, let them do all those things. Why [61:24] be an independent woman? Lying down is [61:26] so comfortable. She talked a lot about [61:28] how she wanted to lie down, but in the [61:29] end, her reality was... [61:31] A reversal. She didn't lie down at all. [61:33] She couldn't lie down because she [61:34] couldn't rely on her husband. She [61:35] thought that because he was a Harvard [61:37] Business School grad, she could hold [61:38] onto him and lie down for the rest of [61:39] her life, but it turned out she's still [61:41] the one paying off all his loans and [61:42] their mortgage. [61:43] The man ended up becoming her" son "to [61:45] provide for. [61:46] Exactly, exactly. [61:47] In all my years of interviewing women, [61:49] I've met countless women like this— [61:51] women who spend their whole lives [61:53] dreaming of lying down and having their [61:54] husbands take care of them. They carry [61:57] the weight of their family and husband [61:59] on their backs while holding onto this [62:01] dream, always hoping that their husband [62:03] would carry them instead, and their [62:04] whole life just passes by like that. [62:07] And in the end, they still say... [62:08] They all say," As a woman, I still hope [62:10] to be able to do this or that. "I ask [62:12] them," So, have you ever gotten that? " [62:14] No. [62:15] It makes people sigh. [62:16] Have you ever been taken care of in [62:17] your life? No. What have you relied on [62:18] to get through life? I’ve survived on [62:20] my own, but we are women, after all, [62:22] and we still hope for things to be a [62:23] certain way. [62:24] So, their footsteps are already moving [62:25] ahead, but their minds are still [62:27] lagging behind, right? [62:28] It’s quite interesting to keep [62:29] dreaming while carrying a broken heart. [62:31] It’s like, in action, they are [62:33] completely independent women, but in [62:34] their thinking, they’re still [62:36] wondering if everything they’re doing [62:37] is just to have something to lean on. [62:39] Actually, looking back, I don’t think [62:42] the anger Xiaolu mentioned is [62:43] acceptable; it doesn’t stem from [62:45] humor, it stems from rage. On the [62:48] contrary, the attitude of acceptance we [62:50] talked about—like, doctors are just [62:52] people, it’s not easy for them, [62:54] they’ve lived their lives that way, [62:55] just like the confused masses bumping [62:57] into things—that kind of life is just [62:59] how it is, and it's acceptable. It is [63:01] this attitude that actually leads to [63:03] humor. [63:03] Mhm. [63:04] Mhm, but I... [63:05] Because, because they’ve accepted and [63:06] seen it for what it is. I... [63:08] But my attitude is different, because [63:09] all comedy is actually making a [63:11] mountain out of a molehill. I mean, if [63:13] something was already a mountain, then [63:15] …right. Right. [63:16] It could also be making a molehill out [63:17] of a mountain. I recently watched a [63:19] stand-up comedian talking about his [63:21] family’s tragic history—he was [63:22] Black—talking about generations of [63:24] his ancestors, how the women were all [63:26] cheated on, and how his dad had over 20 [63:28] kids elsewhere; it was all very chaotic [63:30] and messy. He said, you know, but he [63:32] made a mountain out of a molehill, [63:33] delivering it so lightly, and then... [63:35] Anyway, thinking about it, I feel that [63:36] comedy that makes a molehill out of a [63:38] mountain is definitely more powerful; [63:39] it hides a greater sorrow beneath the [63:41] surface, making it more impactful than [63:42] making a mountain out of a molehill. [63:44] And then, he...well, that making a [63:45] mountain out of a molehill explains [63:47] life...exactly, you're right...and he [63:48] said, you know, women who have been [63:50] cheated on are quieter than you think. [63:52] Mhm. [63:52] Just hearing that line, do you feel [63:54] like laughing or crying? [63:55] Mhm, I’d want to cry, not laugh. [63:59] Right, anyway, my feeling just now is [64:01] that, for comedy, if you look at it [64:03] from a rational perspective, I can [64:04] understand anything. Rationally, I know [64:06] doctors have their frustrations and [64:08] that they are busy, and who doesn't [64:09] check their phone at work? I know that, [64:11] of course, but no one knows the [64:12] hospital’s rules; he just opened the [64:14] curtain and walked right in. But if [64:16] everything, for instance, has been [64:17] resolved and you're fine, then there [64:19] really is nothing left to talk about, [64:21] and you end up ignoring the genuine [64:22] anger and frustration that you actually [64:24] feel. Like the teacher just said, you [64:26] might say something isn't a big deal, [64:28] but even an emperor feels pain when [64:30] they get hemorrhoids; it's not like [64:32] their life is so good that the pain [64:33] stops being painful—it remains [64:35] painful. I think as long as it's pain, [64:37] as long as it's pain you truly feel [64:39] yourself, then it's something that can [64:41] be talked about. Of course, I feel that [64:44] while pain is still pain, it’s just [64:46] pain, but if the pain becomes a joke, [64:48] then it’s stand-up comedy. Yes, [64:51] exactly, it’s just pain plus time [64:53] plus comedic technique, and it becomes [64:55] ... [64:55] There’s even a formula for it. [64:56] Pain plus time plus comedic technique, [64:58] that's how it becomes a bit, otherwise [65:00] it's just whining. [65:01] Yeah, right? [65:02] It’s like a breakup; when you’ve [65:03] just gone through it, you can't talk [65:05] about it, but after some time, when you [65:07] are able to recount it, that man or [65:09] woman has already exited your life. [65:10] Yes, you have to stand up from those [65:12] ruins; a girl staying in those ruins is [65:14] just a life of whining, right? [65:15] Mhm. Yes. [65:17] That late Japanese actress, Kiki Kirin [65:19] —Kirin was always so humorous, you [65:21] know. [65:22] Kirin never divorced her whole life, [65:24] even though her husband treated her [65:25] that way. [65:26] Right, they didn't live together in [65:28] their daily lives. It’s like she fell [65:31] in love with a man, the man was a jerk, [65:33] but she never divorced him and just [65:35] kept dealing with him. But actually, I [65:39] think what was amazing was that no [65:41] matter how much of a jerk he was, she [65:43] never let love die; she loved that jerk [65:45] until she died. I think that's an [65:47] incredibly powerful woman. Second, [65:49] although she loved this man, she never [65:51] relied on him her whole life, never [65:53] counted on him, supported herself, took [65:55] care of herself—even when she was [65:57] terminally ill, she kept working after [65:59] her cancer diagnosis, taking care of [66:01] her daily life and driving herself to [66:03] work. She never received, nor did she [66:06] ever attempt to receive, any care or [66:08] financial support from that man. She [66:11] was like that with everyone, too. Like [66:13] when that director, Hirokazu Kore-eda, [66:15] said he wanted to visit her, she said [66:17] I’m already...implying that her [66:19] condition would only get worse. [66:20] When she acted in Shoplifters, she was [66:22] already in a completely different state [66:24] . [66:25] Yes, and when I saw her, I thought of [66:27] Chinese actors, celebrities much [66:29] younger than her, who go to work with [66:31] six assistants behind them. Kiki Kirin [66:35] was so old, such a legendary actress, [66:37] and her cancer had already metastasized [66:40] . Exactly. [66:41] She kept working, driving herself to [66:43] and from set every day, with no [66:44] assistants behind her to carry things [66:46] or wait on her. [66:48] So I really loved that part of what you [66:50] said; that is precisely the power of [66:51] women. [66:52] Yes, the power of women. [66:53] Men would have completely collapsed [66:55] under those circumstances, but Kiki [66:56] Kirin was truly so tough. [66:57] How independent she was! Her [66:59] independence makes her a real role [67:01] model for women, I think. And she was [67:05] more independent than most, because [67:06] many women just lose their feelings for [67:08] men and are forced to stand strong on [67:10] their own, but Kiki Kirin loved that [67:12] jerk until the end, which is why I [67:14] think her life force was so... [67:18] How incredibly vibrant it was. Yes, I [67:20] think this is me. I’ve been [67:21] dissatisfied with our own arts and [67:23] literature for a while now. For [67:24] instance, there’s just too much love; [67:26] everything always ends with love. Even [67:28] Everything Everywhere All At Once ends [67:30] with love, and the man is asked to [67:32] compromise—or rather, the man is made [67:34] to love—like," If I were given [67:35] another universe, I would still choose [67:37] to run that laundromat with you and [67:39] calculate those taxes with you. "That [67:41] kind of compromise. Whether they are [67:43] called" women's dramas, "" female [67:45] growth dramas, "or" female lead dramas, [67:47] "they all end with love. A state like [67:49] Kiki Kirin’s is just too rare. [67:50] You can’t just apply the formula of" [67:52] why doesn't this woman divorce this [67:53] jerk "to her. [67:54] Right, exactly! She loves him; no [67:56] matter how much of a jerk he is, she [67:57] loves him. Isn't that wonderful? [67:59] Is that a form of strength? [68:00] Yes, and— [68:01] How much love does it take to contain [68:02] that kind of" jerk "? It shows she has [68:04] so, so much love. [68:05] Her life force was truly abundant—so [68:08] much vitality and spirit. I think we [68:10] really lack this kind of vibrant woman [68:12] nowadays. Because her experience is [68:14] non-replicable. You can't just say," [68:15] This is good, let's put it into some [68:17] model. "No, this is just who she was. [68:19] You can't just say," This is great, [68:21] let's promote it. "It doesn't work that [68:23] way, it doesn't. [68:24] But it still has, possesses, possesses [68:26] value, and still has promotional [68:27] potential. Our whole society, arts, and [68:31] various theaters are all encouraging [68:33] that kind of soft, mushy, pink-tinted [68:35] love; it's just too much, everyone is [68:37] caught up in these saccharine dramas [68:39] and donut-sweet fluff. [68:42] That genre is called" sweet pets, "and [68:44] I get nauseous just hearing those two [68:46] words. [68:49] Right, speaking of" sweet pets, "I [68:50] remember one of this year's [68:52] Oscar-nominated films called Triangle [68:54] of Sadness—it's not exactly a romance [68:56] film, but there's a small detail in it [68:58] that I really liked, where a young man [69:00] is pursuing a famous female model. [69:04] Oh, they are a couple, aren't they? Yes [69:06] , he goes out to eat with that female [69:08] model. At the start, just as they've [69:10] begun seeing each other, they go to [69:11] dinner, and that scene is one I feel is [69:13] unlikely to appear in our own literary [69:14] works. I was very surprised at first; [69:16] by the end of the meal, the guy just [69:18] started losing his temper. Hmm. [69:20] Then he started asking her," Why aren't [69:21] you paying the bill? " [69:22] Hmm. [69:23] Hmm. [69:24] Then the woman just said," Oh, I didn't [69:27] notice. "The guy said," Yesterday I [69:30] treated you, and you agreed to treat me [69:32] today. Why aren't you paying? " [69:36] Then the woman said," I didn't notice [69:38] we were supposed to pay. "How could you [69:40] not have noticed? They brought the bill [69:42] over and put it on the table; didn't [69:44] you see it? She said she didn't. How [69:47] could you not have seen it? When the [69:49] waiter brought it over and set it down, [69:51] you didn't see it? I didn't, I really [69:54] didn't see that. Well, since you said [69:56] yesterday that you would pay, you [69:58] should be treating me today. She said," [70:00] Fine, let's not argue about this, I'll [70:02] pay. "Then she took out some cash, but [70:04] after counting it, she didn't have [70:06] enough, so she put it back and went to [70:08] get her card instead. As it turned out, [70:09] her card had issues and wouldn't go [70:11] through. [70:12] It was then incredibly awkward. [70:14] The man got furious. [70:15] Are they already in a serious [70:16] relationship? [70:17] They had just started dating, and [70:19] everyone in the restaurant was watching [70:20] them. The woman was extremely [70:23] embarrassed and said to him," You're [70:24] really obsessed with money, aren't you? [70:26] "" You're acting like this over the [70:28] cost of one meal? " [70:30] Then the man started shouting, saying," [70:32] This isn't about one meal, it's not [70:34] just about this money, it’s not about [70:35] being cheap! " [70:37] I think when you see this part, [70:38] everyone in China can't understand it. [70:40] How can a man on a date with a woman [70:42] end up like this? In the end, he had no [70:44] choice but to swipe his card. After [70:46] swiping, he wouldn't let it go:" Didn't [70:48] you bring cash? "" Even if your cash [70:51] wasn't enough to cover it and I had to [70:53] use my card, you could at least give me [70:54] the cash you have. Oh, you're not [70:57] giving it to me? You're putting it back [70:59] in your wallet. " [71:01] Everything this man expressed—the [71:03] words he said later—I understood [71:05] deeply and resonated with strongly. The [71:09] man said," I'm genuinely trying to date [71:11] you. I like you and really want to be [71:14] with you, so I want to know if you feel [71:16] the same. I don't want to feel like [71:19] you're using me. "" Mhm. "" [71:21] Just to eat, drink, take advantage of [71:23] men, or play games to get by. I hope [71:26] our relationship is equal and based on [71:28] mutual respect. "" [71:29] Mhm. "" [71:30] So, this isn't about the money. "" [71:32] Mhm. "Then the woman was backed into a [71:35] corner and told the truth, saying," [71:37] Well, that's just how I am. "" I'm [71:40] particularly good at manipulating [71:41] people. "" [71:42] Mhm, it's almost an instinct for me. " [71:44] She said," Actually, I saw him put the [71:47] bill down. " [71:48] Right, it's like she's saying," It's [71:50] not that I'm stingy with money, "" [71:52] but I'm just used to "" [71:54] doing things "" [71:55] by manipulating men to serve me. I have [71:57] a strong need for control; I often [71:58] control others subconsciously. "" Mhm. [72:01] " [72:01] When the woman said this, the man was [72:03] very happy and said," Alright, no [72:05] problem. "" Your heart is real now. [72:07] You're being clear. No, now we are [72:09] dating with sincere intentions. "" [72:12] You're finally telling me your true [72:13] thoughts and being honest about your [72:15] personality flaws. This is the process [72:18] of two people dating as equals. Now [72:20] there's no problem. "" [72:21] I don't mind paying for the meal [72:22] anymore. "I've encountered so many men [72:24] complaining about this during my [72:25] interviews." Mhm. " [72:27] They say that in real life, they always [72:29] run into situations where they are [72:30] dating someone, and they don't even [72:32] know if she likes them or not, but they [72:34] still have to date for a while, right? [72:36] Every date involves an expensive meal [72:38] that the man surely has to pay for, [72:40] then going shopping, and when the woman [72:41] points out what she likes, the man has [72:43] to buy it, right? [72:48] And after doing this a few times, he [72:49] said he kept spending money on meals, [72:51] buying clothes, and I only earn that [72:53] much, they don't have the intention to [72:55] go the distance with you. [73:00] You keep investing, and then you can't [73:02] take it anymore. Their predicament [73:04] reminded me of those men, and I just [73:06] think if everyone could have the [73:07] courage to be as honest as this boy. [73:10] Let me add a piece of information: [73:12] there's a difference between this [73:13] couple of models, because in the [73:15] modeling industry, female models are [73:16] paid more than male models. [73:18] Plus, his girlfriend is already a [73:19] well-known model, so her income is [73:21] actually much higher than her [73:22] boyfriend's. I feel like it's only [73:24] under these premises that this kind of [73:25] dispute is likely to happen. [73:27] Right, is that how it is in your [73:28] relationships? [73:29] Me and my boyfriend? [73:31] Yes, you and the boyfriends you know, [73:33] so between men and women. [73:35] Right, like, who actually pays when you [73:37] go on a date? [73:37] I personally have always gone Dutch. [73:40] Because I've sort of never liked owing [73:42] others since I was a kid, especially [73:44] when you first start dating, or we [73:46] either take turns paying for meals; [73:47] I've always been in this mode. I'm not [73:50] using you, and you're not using me; [73:51] it's just that between the two of us, [73:53] like Teacher Zhang just said, it's [73:55] sincere and genuine. To keep our [73:56] relationship moving forward, I think we [73:58] need to achieve this balance in terms [74:00] of money. [74:00] That’s too unromantic. Fang Zheng [74:02] just said one or two physical [74:04] encounters don’t matter. Fine, what [74:06] about five times? Twenty times? That [74:08] matters, right? What if you have... [74:10] It might not matter. You think it [74:12] doesn't matter? If, if your husband [74:14] cheated physically, you think it [74:15] doesn't matter? [74:17] What if he was drunk or something? He [74:18] confessed to me, I think, I think... [74:20] Begging for forgiveness and repenting, [74:22] you think that's acceptable? [74:24] Completely acceptable. [74:25] Then, then is this equivalent? What if [74:27] you were drunk and it happened? [74:29] Yes, this actually, I think, involves [74:31] this issue. I was saying that love is [74:34] just unequal. Some people have rules [74:36] that are, how should I put it, stricter [74:38] , while some rules are looser. For [74:40] instance, for me, like my spiritual [74:42] needs aren't something this boyfriend [74:44] can satisfy. I've encountered this [74:46] situation before, like he doesn't [74:48] understand literature or art, so I have [74:50] to see those things or communicate with [74:52] other men to talk about literature. He [74:54] eventually came to accept this. At [74:56] first he was very hurt, he asked why I [74:58] couldn't satisfy all of his emotional [75:00] needs. Why do you still have to talk to [75:03] others about these things? It’s [75:05] unfair, because he can share everything [75:07] with me, but I can't share every part [75:09] of my life with him. So I thought, fine [75:12] , I’ll respect you, I’ll tell you [75:14] every time, or I’ll invite you along. [75:16] Actually, you might feel it’s awkward [75:18] to have you come along. I think love [75:21] means respect and compromise, whether [75:23] it’s one person’s rules [75:24] compromising for the other’s, or vice [75:26] versa. But I think the biggest problem [75:29] is that people don’t know how to [75:30] respect each other. My mom once told me [75:32] why love is so painful. She said [75:35] because loving someone means handing [75:37] over the right to hurt you completely, [75:39] but many people, once they get that [75:41] right, start using it—they think," [75:43] Great, now I have the right to hurt you [75:45] . "But I think even if your principles [75:48] aren't necessarily equal, you must [75:49] respect each other’s principles, [75:51] compromise, and sacrifice. [75:53] Besides, people are dynamic. I always [75:58] feel—that’s why I always tell them, [76:00] when they talk about a person’s views [76:02] on love or whatever...I once fought [76:04] with my ex-boyfriend because I liked [76:06] making memes of my own photos, they [76:07] were quite cute. Then sometimes when I [76:13] chatted with people, I’d send them to [76:15] guys, and he’d get really angry, [76:16] saying I was sending the wrong signals, [76:18] and we’d have a fight. There’s no [76:20] way around it, you can end up fighting [76:22] over all sorts of things. So how was [76:24] the problem eventually solved? A little [76:26] fighting is understandable, right? [76:27] It’s jealousy. Sometimes he might not [76:29] doubt your feelings, but jealousy can [76:31] sour the relationship. So, in the end, [76:33] did he get convinced by you, or did you [76:36] start listening to him? [76:37] I just coaxed him. I’m the one who [76:39] always has to coax him. But even if you [76:41] make up, you’ve still been hurt once. [76:43] This kind of cumulative hurt—you [76:45] definitely wouldn't make it to a [76:46] hundred times before you break down, [76:48] right? [76:49] That’s for sure. So I think it’s [76:52] best not to try and see it. Because [76:55] Out of sight, out of mind—it cuts off [76:57] those thoughts. That’s because many [76:59] people don’t. I know many [77:01] intellectual people, both men and women [77:03] , who say," I would never look at my [77:05] wife's or husband's phone. "But [77:07] that’s not what they really think [77:08] deep down; sometimes they’ll sneak a [77:10] peek. [77:10] It’s honestly irresistible. [77:12] You see, if you don’t take a look, [77:13] why would it even pop up? Something [77:15] like," Oh, honey. " [77:16] You have no idea how many people I know [77:18] around me... [77:19] Just a quick glance. So many things! I [77:22] tell you, this phone is truly the root [77:24] of all evil. It really shows that [77:27] everyone is an unfathomable world, you [77:29] know? Even then, there are so many [77:32] things—this phone almost certainly [77:34] has issues, you understand? Of course, [77:37] when I say there are issues, it doesn't [77:39] mean they've cheated. It’s just that [77:41] when couples check each other's phones, [77:43] they often discover things they didn't [77:45] know. Many secrets about the person you [77:48] spend every day with—and not [77:49] necessarily just romantic entanglements [77:52] —I find that terrifying. [77:53] And there will always be traces. Even [77:56] if you delete all your chat history, if [77:57] your wife looks at your social media [77:59] and asks," Why do all the photos of [78:01] this woman load instantly without [78:02] needing to buffer? "it means you’ve [78:05] already opened them. [78:06] You know it will leave a trace. [78:08] They’re technically savvy, while [78:10] I’m not that advanced. It’s true, [78:13] it gets to the point where they don't [78:15] just monitor who you" like "or who [78:17] you're friends with online; they even [78:19] look at who your friends are and start [78:21] questioning them." How on earth did you [78:25] add my friend? " [78:28] I heard from a friend in Beijing who [78:30] said," Do you know what the most [78:32] hellish argument in the world is like? [78:36] "He said he and his girlfriend fought [78:38] to such an extent, all because he [78:40] accidentally saw a WeChat message. In [78:42] the end, they naturally started [78:43] interrogating each other. They ended up [78:45] mutual cross-examination, unlocking [78:47] each other's phones." You show me yours [78:49] . "" I’ll show you mine. "Good god, [78:51] he said they stayed up until 6:00 AM, [78:54] you know? He called it a hellish night, [78:56] just because they had to explain [78:57] everything. Watching that, oh, I think [79:00] it’s a real test of human nature." [79:02] Why did that guy say that to you? "" [79:03] And this girl, why did she—wait, let [79:06] me see yours. "" Why did that woman say [79:08] this to you? "My goodness, just [79:09] thinking about it, it feels so [79:11] torturous. And some people, they just [79:13] won't delete these things. After [79:15] deleting it, and after that, after [79:17] deleting it, I know of two examples. [79:20] Let's start with the first example. [79:21] After he deleted it, it turned out his [79:23] wife was a software engineer. I [79:25] discovered that everything can be [79:26] recovered, and what was recovered was [79:28] truly terrifying; otherwise, he [79:30] wouldn't have deleted it, right? [79:31] That’s one. So how do you go on [79:33] living? You’d have to change your [79:36] phone, but even if you change your [79:37] phone, it’s the same whether you [79:39] delete it or not. [79:40] Besides that, there is a second example [79:42] , which is just like what he mentioned, [79:44] it’s technical work. This kind of [79:46] work is definitely a" one in a hundred [79:48] "slip-up. I have a friend who also came [79:50] to Beijing for work, got into some [79:51] trouble, and was caught by his wife. [79:53] His wife was furious. What could he do [79:55] when she was furious? He quit all his [79:58] jobs and just went home. He just left. [80:00] He couldn't continue living at home. [80:02] He just went back to his hometown. He [80:03] couldn't keep living in this wretched [80:05] city of Beijing, so he left. A city of [80:07] bright lights and debauchery. [80:08] Exactly, it causes trouble, so he went [80:10] back to his hometown to live a good [80:11] life. While living there, there was one [80:13] rule: you have to move on and live your [80:14] life. Fine, you can go anywhere, just [80:16] not Beijing. Alright, so he wouldn't go [80:18] to Beijing. But what if he wanted to [80:19] come to Beijing for a business trip? [80:20] How could he do it? He would have to go [80:22] somewhere else first, then come to [80:23] Beijing, finish up, then go back. It's [80:25] a very tedious process. [80:27] During this process, when he got to [80:29] Beijing, he had deleted all his [80:30] contacts and cleaned everything up. [80:33] Luckily, his wife wasn't a software [80:34] engineer and couldn't recover the data. [80:37] She checked his phone and smashed it to [80:39] pieces. I had cleaned everything up, so [80:41] why did it get smashed? Because of one" [80:44] one in a hundred "slip-up. It was a [80:48] text from 10086:" Welcome to Beijing. " [80:52] That one mistake. [80:53] Exactly, because all his communications [80:56] with friends and everything else—he [80:57] thought he was safe, but the mobile [80:59] carrier, once you enter a new area, [81:01] immediately sends you a text. [81:03] And nowadays, these texts basically end [81:05] up in my spam folder; you don't even [81:06] pay attention to them sometimes. [81:08] Wherever you go now, as soon as you [81:09] land, you get a" Welcome to [Location] [81:11] "text from 10086. Right, that's the" [81:13] one in a hundred "technical slip-up. [81:15] It's so easy now—for those people, [81:17] the phone is quite terrifying. All [81:19] these trackers and downloads. For [81:21] example, when you click on a photo for [81:23] the first time, it takes a moment to [81:24] download, but the second time you click [81:26] it, it pops up immediately. So, if you [81:29] see a photo pop up instantly on your [81:31] husband's phone, it means he’s [81:32] already viewed it—and that’s [81:34] suspicious, right? Why would that be? [81:36] Right. [81:37] Exactly. [81:39] Right, and you know, it’s like we all [81:41] have a digital footprint now. Once, I [81:45] ran into a cybersecurity expert who [81:47] told me that when it comes to solving [81:49] crimes now, your digital footprint [81:51] reveals exactly where you’ve been and [81:53] what you’ve done; if they want to [81:55] look into it, they can find everything. [81:58] The point is, many people want to know [82:00] the truth about their partners, but [82:02] they forget to ask themselves one key [82:04] question: once you know, can you handle [82:05] it? Can you deal with it? What will you [82:08] do? Take those wives of my friends, for [82:12] instance; if they push until their [82:14] husband finally admits that everything [82:16] they imagined really happened, then [82:18] what? Can the woman really handle that? [82:23] I have a friend who is a fortune teller [82:25] , and 99 percent of his clients are [82:26] women. He says many of them secretly [82:29] bring their husband's birth date and [82:31] time to be read. They aren't just [82:34] checking for affairs; they ask if they [82:36] will stay with their husband until the [82:37] end, and naturally, they want to know [82:39] if he’s faithful. My friend always [82:42] asks them first to remind them:" Okay, [82:44] I'm going to read it, are you ready? " [82:46] Do you really want to know the truth? [82:49] And once you know the truth, can you [82:50] deal with it? In most cases, the women [82:53] immediately say," Never mind, forget it [82:56] , don't tell me. Then, Master, just [82:58] tell me when my husband will die. "Then [83:00] they can divide the inheritance; they [83:02] want to split the assets. So, Master Ma [83:05] , are you saying that you believe a [83:07] married couple should keep some things [83:08] to themselves? I'm asking, what if you [83:12] were married, and your husband...... [83:15] stayed the night at the place of some" [83:17] pure and innocent "female friend [83:19] because they were close, but nothing [83:21] actually happened—how would you feel [83:23] about that? [83:24] Of course, you choose to trust him; [83:26] there's no problem with that. Where [83:27] I’m concerned, it’s just that [83:29] I’ve seen some standards online [83:30] before. For example, if a husband [83:32] unscrews a bottle cap for a stranger, [83:34] or lets another woman ride in the [83:36] passenger seat, or eats or goes to the [83:38] movies alone with her, I can accept all [83:40] of that. I really can. Even spending [83:42] the night alone with another woman—I [83:44] mean, you don't know if it happened, [83:46] but if he tells you it didn't, I think [83:47] I could accept that too. I really could [83:49] . But later, regardless of what you [83:52] call it, I realized there is one thing [83:54] I cannot accept. Even if they had a [83:57] physical encounter once or twice, I [83:59] could handle it. But what I can't stand [84:05] is if he starts discussing our [84:06] relationship with another woman— [84:08] things he can't talk to me about, or [84:09] sharing our private matters with [84:11] someone else, pouring his heart out to [84:13] her—that is what I absolutely cannot [84:15] accept. So, you’re saying you can't [84:20] accept him taking things that belong [84:22] only to your two-person world. [84:24] Right, or if he starts criticizing me [84:26] with another woman, saying things to [84:28] her that he wouldn't say to my face. [84:30] That would hurt me deeply. So what you [84:32] really care about is the emotional [84:34] aspect? No, it’s just that he’s too [84:35] young, he doesn’t understand this [84:37] stuff. [84:37] Let me—you can talk about me later, I [84:39] can add another example for you. Beyond [84:41] the things you’ve listed, there’s [84:43] another one. I find some girls are [84:45] really interesting. Do you know what [84:47] they can't accept? For instance, when a [84:48] group of men and women are chatting and [84:50] a joke comes up, [84:51] Hmm. [84:53] If my husband or boyfriend and another [84:55] woman share a knowing smile, implying [84:57] they have an inside joke that only they [84:59] understand and they smile about it [85:00] together, Laughing—I couldn't handle [85:02] that either. That would make me feel [85:06] uncomfortable too. It might even bother [85:08] me more than if he had accidentally [85:10] slept with someone. I’ve seen so many [85:12] people like this; I’m older now and [85:14] have met all sorts. [85:16] I actually have a friend like that. [85:19] When he brings his wife out, he makes [85:21] everyone at the table tense during [85:23] conversation. Why? Because every time [85:26] he says something while talking to you, [85:28] he looks at his wife. He is constantly [85:30] checking her reaction. [85:31] That’s the result of long-term [85:32] conditioning. There are many such [85:34] people, they aren't rare in society at [85:36] all. Every word they say is meant to [85:39] seek their wife's approval. [85:41] Oh my, Luyu and I are often like that, [85:43] because she's just too hard to deal [85:45] with. [85:46] Then I'll pick up where he left off. He [85:48] said he could tolerate one or two [85:50] instances of physical infidelity, but [85:52] not the disclosure of private marital [85:54] matters to others. Let me tell you, if [85:56] he's physically unfaithful, the best [85:58] thing is that he won't talk about it; [86:00] if it hasn't been brought up, it just [86:02] stays that way. [86:04] But in most cases, in terms of [86:06] linguistic intimacy, let's look at it [86:08] from a man's perspective. The things he [86:12] says to a lover—and by" lover, "I [86:14] mean a physical partner outside of [86:16] marriage, let's make that clear—are [86:18] more intimate than what he says to his [86:20] wife. [86:22] Mhm. [86:22] This is determined by sociology. A good [86:26] man can manage to avoid talking about [86:28] anything related to his home life, [86:30] while a bad one will leak a great deal [86:32] of secrets because he uses it to... [86:35] Why is that considered bad? [86:37] To gain her favor. [86:38] Why? You said a good person wouldn't [86:41] talk about his family in front of a [86:43] lover, but a bad person would. Why? [86:46] I mean, those with poor character will [86:48] disclose their business with their wife [86:50] to their lover. The lover then knows [86:53] that their relationship is better than [86:55] his wife's, and he certainly wouldn't [86:57] dare tell his wife about them. Isn't [87:00] that a simple logic? If he tells his [87:01] lover... [87:02] About his wife's good qualities. I [87:04] think that's abnormal. I think, sir, [87:07] you need to study social behavior; [87:09] there's no reason to talk about your [87:11] wife's virtues to a lover. [87:14] It's precisely through studying social [87:16] psychology and clinical counseling that [87:18] I've seen so many cases. Of course, [87:20] Master Ma is more experienced, but what [87:22] I'm talking about is a common [87:24] phenomenon. [87:28] Master Ma just mentioned the wife [87:30] waiting outside and being unhappy [87:32] because it was 3 AM. But the point is, [87:40] what did the man do to avoid suspicion, [87:42] and what did he do afterward? For [87:47] example, this is an example a Taiwanese [87:49] writer gave me. Because he said, for [87:53] instance, if I borrowed money from you [87:55] and am paying you back—let's say [87:57] 20,000 yuan—you'd naturally just say, [87:59] " Okay, "and take it. But he'd say," No [88:03] , no, you should count it. "You might [88:05] feel embarrassed, as if you don't trust [88:06] him. He said," No, you must count that [88:09] 20,000 in front of him. I want to count [88:11] it for you, you see, I need to be [88:13] credible. " [88:14] I can't just assume you trust me, that [88:16] won't work. [88:17] I need clear boundaries. I'll count out [88:20] 20,000 for you, keep it well, I don't [88:22] need you to sign anything, just keep it [88:24] . So that’s how we talked. I remember [88:28] I once took a young friend to [88:29] someone’s home to chat, and afterward [88:31] , we needed to exchange contact info to [88:33] send over some documents. My friend, a [88:36] female friend, offered her phone number [88:39] , but he refused," No, no, no, no, I'll [88:42] contact you myself. "He took a [88:45] proactive step because he worried that [88:47] having a woman's phone number might [88:48] look suspicious on his end. That's why [88:54] I say it's not just about how the [88:55] partner behaves; you also have to look [88:57] at whether the person being suspected [88:59] did anything before or after. That also [89:04] influences whether the husband or wife [89:06] trusts them. And infidelity has [89:10] different circumstances; you might not [89:12] necessarily accept it all, because you [89:14] added conditions beforehand, like if it [89:16] were a one-time drunken mistake, right? [89:19] Maybe you could accept one or two, [89:21] maybe even three or four times. [89:24] But if it keeps increasing, becoming a [89:26] pattern, then that's just who they are. [89:30] Cheating slowly. What if it’s ten [89:32] times, then? [89:32] Twenty or thirty times is definitely [89:34] not okay, even five, six, seven, or [89:36] eight times. [89:36] Because infidelity has different [89:38] scenarios; for example, if their [89:40] cheating wasn't a drunken mistake, or [89:42] even just a momentary lapse, you [89:43] wouldn't accept even one or two times. [89:47] It wasn't that they were drunk; they [89:48] knew very well that their physical [89:50] connection was perhaps even better than [89:52] with me. [89:53] Then that’s a no-go, I’m afraid it [89:54] really was better than with me, so... [89:57] Right, so that’s why you can’t [89:59] compare it with women's fears. [90:03] Talking about this with a sociology or [90:05] psychology teacher is just too [90:07] exhausting. It’s too cruel, you've [90:11] put every single condition out on the [90:13] table, and now we can't even discuss it [90:15] . [90:18] We can only express our inner social [90:19] perceptions and tolerance while in a [90:21] state of ambiguity. You must first have [90:24] a perception of society to be tolerant; [90:26] for example, if we go back to the Qing [90:28] Dynasty, you wouldn't have this [90:29] tolerance because just mentioning it [90:31] would be treasonous—you couldn't even [90:33] think about it, right? [90:34] Looking at the past, if you go by the [90:36] standards of religious practice, the [90:38] key lies in the initial intention. [90:39] Right, why do you have to repent? Why [90:42] would you go to confess? When you talk [90:45] to a priest, it's so you can get these [90:47] things out of your heart—to let out [90:49] those wicked thoughts. Once it's said [90:52] out loud, because there is a clear [90:54] boundary between thought and action, [90:55] most people will respect this limit. [90:59] When I say people have emotional [91:00] affairs—let's not say everyone, [91:02] though many would argue they don't— [91:04] most people do have emotional affairs, [91:06] but from that to [91:08] moving toward a physical affair, that [91:10] is the most critical boundary. Once [91:12] they cross it, in a sense, there is no [91:14] turning back; you simply cannot go back [91:16] . Once you cross that line, you are [91:20] beyond social remedy. As for women, we [91:24] can flip this example to look at men, [91:26] and whether they can tolerantly accept [91:27] this situation in our society. Actually [91:32] , whether or not you are tolerant has a [91:34] lot to do with how you manage and [91:35] settle your own life. For instance, I [91:39] heard a conclusion from Master Ma, [91:41] which suggests that the ancient Chinese [91:43] wisdom of" blissful ignorance "is [91:45] actually quite meaningful today." [91:48] Blissful ignorance "encompasses both a [91:50] certain tolerance and understanding of [91:52] others 'human nature, as well as an [91:54] awareness of your own capacity to [91:56] endure. If you make certain things too [91:59] clear between a couple, it can be quite [92:01] cruel to everyone involved, right? But [92:05] to achieve this, like I think Fang Zhou [92:07] has, you need to be confident and have [92:09] your own inner spiritual world. This [92:13] becomes a sociological issue, if not a [92:15] psychological one. Do you see why some [92:19] spouses want to possess everything [92:20] about their partner, even their [92:22] memories? Have you ever heard of that? [92:27] Even your first love, you have to tell [92:29] me about it, even though I could never [92:31] be a part of it. Knowing it is still a [92:34] form of possession for me. Is such an [92:39] intense desire to possess actually [92:40] because they are too insecure, lack [92:42] safety, or simply want everything under [92:44] their own control? I think that is an [92:49] unreasonable way to understand things. [92:53] I often talk about pushing things to [92:55] the extreme to see them clearly; for [92:57] example, an affair in your youth that [92:59] brings a marriage to the brink of [93:01] collapse, but you finally wake up. So, [93:05] for instance, if this happened when you [93:07] were 30, and now you’ve reached 80— [93:09] fifty years later—this event becomes [93:12] a very important source of satisfaction [93:14] in your later years. The richness of [93:17] your spiritual life in old age relies [93:19] on looking back at these things from [93:21] your youth; it makes everything become [93:22] truly meaningful.