## Detailed walkthrough
### [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5c3KDI8k_B0&t=0s) The Unprecedented Era of Longevity and the Crisis of Family Care
Modern society has entered entirely unchartered demographic territory on two fronts: never before in history have human beings lived so long in such massive numbers, and never before in Chinese history—through centuries of war, peace, and dynastic change—has the family unit contracted from multiple children down to a single child or very few offspring. This structural rupture creates a daunting elder care challenge that ancient ancestors could never have envisioned and which the current social architecture is ill-equipped to solve. As family sizes shrink, society cannot rely on traditional domestic caretaking and is forced to transition rapidly toward collective social elder care. Yet, outside the spotlight, the vast majority of elderly people across China, particularly in second- and third-tier cities and vast rural areas, remain largely overlooked and underserved. In discussing this shift, the speakers note entrepreneur Chen Dongsheng’s broader vision in pioneering senior care communities, framing the conversation not as corporate self-promotion, but around making "great contributions to the world" during an unprecedented longevity era.
[01:05](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5c3KDI8k_B0&t=65s) Physical Confinement, Dementia, and the Meaning of Survival
The conversation turns to the philosophical and physical reality of the end of life, recalling the poignant final days of former Renmin University philosophy professor Zhu Rui, who recorded his dying reflections in "The Last Moments of a Philosopher" while admitted to the palliative hospice ward at Haidian Hospital. For a bedridden thinker confronting death, ultimate happiness was stripped down to the most humble, unattainable wish: to simply step out of bed, slip unnoticed across the street, sit down in a small neighborhood diner, and drink a bowl of hot soup. This highlights the cruel disparity between longevity and quality of life. For a long life to retain its dignity, physical health and mental lucidity must remain in harmony, yet severe divergence between the two leads to heart-wrenching dilemmas. When Ronald Reagan succumbed to Alzheimer’s disease, many media outlets cruelly remarked that the former president had effectively died years earlier and that only a hollow shadow remained on earth, with some commentators even suggesting that a swifter death from cancer would have spared his family endless suffering. The speakers firmly push back against this cold calculation, emphasizing that outsiders cannot comprehend the profound emotional and existential meaning a living elder continues to hold for their loved ones, even when memory or bodily function collapses.
[02:43](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5c3KDI8k_B0&t=163s) The Cult of Self-Reliance and the Fallacy of the "Standard Human"
Societal attitudes toward aging often inflict a second, quieter cruelty by measuring all citizens against an idealized "standard human." Drawing on ethnographic fieldwork by researcher Wu Xinyue across county-level nursing homes in southern Jiangsu, the discussion critiques contemporary society's obsession with worshiping the strong, preaching relentless self-reliance and autonomous mobility. Under this ethos, illness, physical decline, and cognitive impairment are treated as abnormal defects to be swept out of sight, ignoring the reality that complete human independence is a temporary fiction: everyone eventually reaches a phase of absolute vulnerability where dignity and pride must yield to total reliance on caretakers. Society's built environment—from digital platforms to mega-airports like Shanghai Pudong International Airport—is calibrated solely for young, brisk commuters carrying light shoulder bags across endless concourses.
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: Urban Design and Demographic Reality Gap
accDescr: Diagram contrasting modern infrastructure design benchmarks with the physical needs of an aging society.
subgraph Design["Flawed Modern Design Benchmark"]
direction TB
A["Presumed 'Standard Human'<br/>(Young, agile, independent commuter)"]
B["Built Environment<br/>(Vast terminals, stairways, digital-first screens)"]
A --> B
end
subgraph Reality["Impending Demographic Reality"]
direction TB
C["Aging Population Shift<br/>(Over 25% elderly demographic)"]
D["Physical Realities<br/>(Limited stamina, diaper changes, handrail reliance)"]
C --> D
end
subgraph Consequence["Societal Outcome"]
direction TB
E["Unadapted Public Spaces"]
F["Enforced Confinement<br/>(Seniors trapped indoors, invisible to society)"]
E --> F
end
B -.->|"Fails to accommodate"| D
D --> E
```
Public facilities celebrate dedicated nursery rooms for mothers and infants but remain blind to the everyday necessities of incontinent seniors who require grab-bars, continuous resting benches, moving walkways, and adult changing stations. Without substantial, barrier-free retrofitting of urban spaces as seniors approach 25% or more of the populace, the elderly are effectively banished into forced domestic isolation simply because venturing outdoors is an insurmountable physical ordeal.
[05:59](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5c3KDI8k_B0&t=359s) The Realities of Assistive Tech: The First-Generation Exoskeleton
As people search for practical ways to maintain mobility, technological solutions such as robotic exoskeletons have begun entering the consumer sphere, though early iterations reveal stark engineering limitations. One panelist shares an anecdote about an older friend who eagerly purchased a wearable mobility exoskeleton after finding his aging legs less nimble. While the motorized gear initially produced an intoxicating sensation of effortless, floating strides, real-world testing quickly exposed glaring flaws. The battery drained rapidly, spare power packs were cumbersome to haul, and a flawed bottom-up battery latch caused the power unit to detach and tumble out mid-stride when the wearer hopped. More insidiously, switching the motor off left the user's natural leg muscles feeling dramatically more fatigued and powerless than before. Furthermore, building lighter structural frames fails to resolve the primary ergonomic bottleneck:
- Exoskeletons inevitably transfer heavy kinetic forces and mechanical torque directly onto the user's lumbar spine and waist.
- Because middle-aged and older adults frequently suffer from chronic lower-back strain, lifting the legs via motorized assistance merely shifts the load onto an already fragile, compromised core.
- Without addressing natural human weight-bearing dynamics, wearable robotics cannot yet substitute for functional physiological independence.
[08:05](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5c3KDI8k_B0&t=485s) The "9073" Elderly Care Paradigm and Growing Youth Anxiety
Addressing the realistic destination for the aging public, the discussion examines the dominant care model first formalized by Shanghai, which, alongside Beijing, confronts one of the most advanced demographic aging curves in China. The framework, known as the "9073" formula, maps out the systemic distribution of elder care:
```mermaid
flowchart LR
accTitle: The 9073 Elder Care Distribution Structure
accDescr: Breakdown of the 9073 model for elder care distribution in China.
Total["Total Senior Population"]
Total --> Home["90%: Home-based Aging<br/>(Family and domestic setting)"]
Total --> Community["7%: Community-supported Care<br/>(Daycare centers, home delivery, local clinics)"]
Total --> Facility["3%: Institutional Nursing Care<br/>(Specialized homes, commercial facilities)"]
```
The luxury retirement complexes frequently highlighted in public discourse represent only the very pinnacle of that narrow 3% institutional tier, leaving 97% of the aging population to grow old within standard residential neighborhoods. However, with the rapid depletion of home-based caregivers due to single-child dynamics, remaining at home without robust community networks is becoming untenable, forcing an urgent pivot toward community-integrated care services. This mounting pressure has reverberated downward into the psychology of the younger generation. In public attitude surveys measuring young adults aged 18 to 35, the proportion of respondents who admitted they had never thought about retirement dropped steeply within just a few years from over 70% to roughly 40%. Today, well over half of young Chinese adults are actively researching pension schemes, annuity investments, and social safety nets decades ahead of retirement, driven by anxiety over an increasingly fragile demographic future.
[52:56](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5c3KDI8k_B0&t=3176s) Grief, Memory, and the Ghostly Familiarity of an Aging Stranger
The conversation turns personal as the host invites Ma Jiahui to reflect on his father. Jiahui shares that his father passed away two years prior from a brain illness. Thankfully, his father did not suffer drawn-out pain, but Jiahui admits that the emotional aftermath over the past two years has been disorienting. He often finds himself walking down the street and catching sight of elderly men in their eighties or nineties who bear an uncanny resemblance to his late father, noting that once people reach a certain advanced age, their facial structures and expressions take on a shared, recognizable quality.
He recounts an incident from just the previous week while riding the East Rail Line train back into Hong Kong. Sitting diagonally across from him by the window was an elderly man with balding white hair and a round face who did nothing but stare at him intently. At first, Jiahui wondered if the passenger was simply a fan of his television programs, but the man continued staring unabated for the entire fifty-minute journey. The sheer duration of the gaze, combined with the man’s physical resemblance to his father, stirred such a deep emotional projection that Jiahui felt intensely uncomfortable and fought back tears, feeling as though his deceased father had miraculously returned from the beyond just to sit and watch him. When the table teasingly asks whether he was merely hallucinating someone staring for fifty straight minutes, Jiahui laughs it off, acknowledging it was almost certainly his own psychological projection onto a polite, curious stranger.
[54:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5c3KDI8k_B0&t=3280s) The Rise of the "Full-Time Child" and the Domestic Economic Loop
The discussion shifts from personal bereavement to contemporary online phenomena regarding youth and parents, specifically moving past the reflexive stigma attached to the traditional label of *kenlao* (living off one's parents). While living off parents used to be universally frowned upon, economic shifts have given rise to a new, rationalized arrangement: the "full-time child" (全职儿女). In an increasingly brutal job market where young graduates struggle to secure employment, returning home has transformed from passive idleness into structured household labor.
One detailed example brought to the table involves a young woman whose aging parents together draw a pension approaching 10,000 yuan. Both parents enjoy going out and keeping busy, yet neither knows how to cook well, and both are thoroughly confounded by modern smartphone interfaces, digital utility bill payments, and social security platforms. The daughter stepped in to run the household full-time:
- She manages their daily digital lives, handles insurances, and navigates social security apps.
- She prepares nutritious, home-cooked meals awaiting them when they return.
- She arranges hospital medical visits, schedules check-ups, and organizes their leisure travel.
In exchange, the parents turn over their household earnings and pension funds to her management, effectively providing her with financial maintenance. Two years ago, when the "Full-time Children Exchange Center" exploded in popularity on Douban, many criticized it as glorified parental dependency. Yet the daughter's defense was straightforward: "Doesn't my labor deserve this income?" The family dynamic thrives on mutual benefit, with the parents delighted to have their child nearby—their only traditional complaint being why she hasn't found a boyfriend or married yet. The table dubs this arrangement a domestic version of "internal circulation" (家庭内循环), a closed-loop micro-economy where money earned by parents is spent directly compensating their offspring for domestic eldercare rather than leaking to third parties.
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: Domestic Internal Circulation Model
accDescr: Diagram illustrating the closed-loop economic and care exchange between aging parents and a full-time adult child.
subgraph Parents["Aging Parents (Pension ~10,000 RMB)"]
A["Enjoy active routine"] --> B["Baffled by smartphones, billing, & healthcare apps"]
C["Provide financial lifeline & household budget"]
end
subgraph FullTimeChild["Full-Time Child (In lieu of outside job)"]
D["Daily home-cooked meals"]
E["Digital administration & insurance management"]
F["Medical escorting & travel planning"]
end
Parents -->|"Hands over finances & maintenance"| FullTimeChild
FullTimeChild -->|"Provides eldercare, tech support & labor"| Parents
```
[57:42](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5c3KDI8k_B0&t=3462s) Daughters vs. Housekeepers: The Irreplaceable Nature of Family Love
The table analyzes why a "full-time daughter" fundamentally defies the standard employer-employee logic of hiring an outside domestic helper. From a purely utilitarian perspective, paying a daughter to handle chores looks like purchasing a domestic service. However, the emotional leverage within a family completely subverts typical workplace hierarchy:
- **Discipline and Authority:** With an outside housekeeper, an employer who is dissatisfied can scold them; with a daughter, parents do not dare scold her. If a parent complains that the food tastes bad, the daughter will snap back: "Oh, it's terrible? Cook it yourself then!"
- **Replaceability:** An outside domestic helper can be fired or replaced year after year. A daughter is irreplaceable, and parents remain indefinitely responsible for her life regardless of job performance.
- **The Complication of Love:** Outside domestic labor requires clear emotional boundaries. One speaker jokes about being terrified that a housekeeper might develop affection, especially when workers chatter among themselves about having a "handsome boss." With children, love is unavoidable, and that emotional bond strips parents of consumer leverage.
The panel brings up the classic Cantonese idiom that raising children is a "no-capital business" (无本生意)—meaning children know that parental affection is an unshakeable safety net. No matter how fierce the daytime argument or how poorly the chores are done, parents will inevitably soften two days later and take their child out for a nice birthday dinner. The children have their parents completely "figured out," ensuring parents cannot simply cut off their allowances.
[59:37](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5c3KDI8k_B0&t=3577s) Generational Entitlement in *Girls* vs. Nordic State-Supported Independence
The discussion expands to the global scale of youth underemployment and emotional entitlement. A speaker references the American television drama *Girls*, which resonated widely because it accurately captured an uncomfortable reality of modern post-graduate dependence. In the series, an educated young woman insists on clinging to an artistic lifestyle in New York City two years after graduating college, demanding that her parents—modest schoolteachers—continue footing her rent and phone bills. When her parents protest that they can no longer afford it, she indignantly retorts that all her peers receive parental support, going so far as to emotionally blackmail them by claiming that an acquaintance whose parents cut her off ended up undergoing multiple abortions and falling into severe drug addiction.
By stark contrast, a guest speaking from personal experience living in Finland explains how the Nordic welfare model decouples survival from parental dependency entirely:
- **Unemployment and Youth Autonomy:** A young adult who cannot find work in Finland never turns to their mother demanding financial rescue. Instead, they go directly to the municipal social services agency.
- **State-Sponsored Reintegration:** The social welfare office assesses their career goals, provides professional retraining, and provides an independent living allowance sufficient to rent a modest apartment. The explicit objective of the state is to keep young adults living independently outside their parents' home while they search for work.
- **Elderly Care and Institutional Support:** Conversely, when parents grow frail, they do not expect their adult children to move in or support them physically. Instead, they utilize public pensions and social care allocations. Social services dispatch visiting nurses for medical administration, home care, and even companions to take the elderly on regular walks.
The speaker notes that while this institutionalized safety net means Nordic family relationships lack the tight-knit, intertwined emotional intensity found in traditional Asian family households, it guarantees that every individual—young or old—possesses the structural foundation to live alone with dignity.
[01:12:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5c3KDI8k_B0&t=4322s) 片尾寄语与告别 (Let You Fly Away Comfortably)
在节目的最后收尾时刻，伴随着尾声的渐隐与收束，传出了最后的告别寄语：“and then, let you fly away comfortably.”（然后，让你舒服地展翅远飞）。这句充满诗意与释怀感的话语为整场关于养老、社会保险与人生归宿的沉重讨论画下了一个轻盈而温暖的句号，寓意着在看清生活的现实与种种制度变迁之后，人们依然能找到属于内心的安定与自在，体面而从容地走向人生的下一段旅程。
[15:45] 度死日
[15:45] 你别动，专心吃你的！
[15:45] 这种粗活也只有我们干，人家大学生、博士生才不会来伺候你。
[22:03] 周轶君: 存肌肉、存钱、存脑力、存爱好
[27:35] 老了绝不依靠子女养老
[33:11] 孔子: 未知生，焉知死
[33:11] 景军: 把死亡带回生活
[45:54] 朝跪双子，暮哭亡妻
[54:40] 全职儿女
[54:40] Doesn't my labor deserve this income?
[57:42] Oh, it's terrible? Cook it yourself then!
[65:01] 马家辉: 我们还肯问你要钱，你就该偷笑了。
[72:02] and then, let you fly away comfortably.
Original transcript
[0:00] Never before have so many people lived
[0:02] for so long. Second, throughout Chinese
[0:04] history, regardless of war or peace,
[0:05] families always had many children. This
[0:07] is the first time in Chinese history
[0:09] that we’ve seen families with few or
[0:11] even single children, meaning that the
[0:13] daunting challenge of elder care is
[0:14] something our ancestors never imagined.
[0:16] We have never encountered this before;
[0:18] it’s a problem we cannot solve now,
[0:20] which means we must significantly
[0:22] reduce reliance on family-based care
[0:24] and drastically increase social elder
[0:26] care. The vast majority of people in
[0:29] the country, including the elderly in
[0:31] second-and third-tier cities and rural
[0:33] areas, are not receiving any attention.
[0:36] In the end, I discovered that Dongsheng
[0:38] has a higher perspective; he said you
[0:40] don't necessarily have to talk about
[0:41] our company like that. I said, let’s
[0:43] use the phrase "great contributions to
[0:45] the world." As a pioneer in the elder
[0:50] care industry, we want to take this
[0:51] opportunity to have a good talk about
[0:54] this unprecedented era of longevity.
[0:58] Wasn't it the former Renmin University
[1:01] philosophy professor, Zhu Rui, who
[1:03] wrote "The Last Moments of a
[1:04] Philosopher"?
[1:05] Yes, exactly.
[1:07] Oh, was it that he kept recording his
[1:09] thoughts while on his deathbed?
[1:14] He did an interview because he was in
[1:15] the hospice ward at Haidian Hospital.
[1:21] He said his biggest dream at that time
[1:24] was just to get out of bed, slip out of
[1:26] that room, sit down in a restaurant
[1:28] across the street from the hospital,
[1:30] and have a bowl of soup, yet he
[1:31] couldn't fulfill it. Therefore, I think
[1:37] these two dilemmas boil down to this:
[1:40] if you live a long life, your body and
[1:42] mind must be in harmony for that life
[1:44] to be meaningful. It's hard to say
[1:48] which situation is worse. For example,
[1:53] when Reagan passed away, many media
[1:55] outlets wrote commentaries saying he
[1:57] had actually died many years ago, and
[1:59] what remained in this world was just a
[2:01] shadow.
[2:04] Dementia, right?
[2:07] Some even wrote that if he had passed
[2:09] away earlier from something like cancer
[2:11] , it might have been better for his
[2:13] family. Of course, I disagree with such
[2:17] views. I specifically wrote a piece
[2:19] arguing that they underestimate the
[2:21] significant meaning of a person to
[2:23] their family, regardless of whether
[2:25] their body or mind is failing.
[2:27] This is something outsiders really
[2:29] don't understand. But if you think
[2:32] about societal judgment, it's that if
[2:34] your mind is gone, they consider you
[2:36] already gone, even if your body remains
[2:39] . So I think this is a very cruel part
[2:43] of life. But, there is an author named
[2:46] Wu Xinyue, isn't there? He went to do
[2:49] some research, investigating nursing
[2:51] homes in county-level cities in
[2:53] Southern Jiangsu. I think he raised a
[2:55] viewpoint that you seem to have
[2:57] mentioned as well. In the past, I
[2:58] didn't really understand it. He said
[3:00] our society is now all about worshiping
[3:02] the strong. Promoting the worship of
[3:04] the strong all day long,
[3:06] and promoting independence and
[3:07] self-reliance all day long. We think
[3:12] being old, sick, demented, or disabled
[3:14] is an exception—a special case—and
[3:16] it’s as if they need to be hidden
[3:19] away. But in reality, what kind of
[3:23] independence is there between people?
[3:26] You might reach a stage in life. Where
[3:28] you can't even care about shame or
[3:30] pride; you just need someone to look
[3:32] after you because you're completely
[3:34] immobile. Yes, that’s right. I’ve
[3:37] said this before because society has a
[3:39] default setting; it presumes a "
[3:41] standard human."
[3:42] Mm.
[3:43] This standard human is usually young
[3:45] and healthy. They are mobile and have
[3:47] no issues at all. It uses this
[3:50] benchmark to design many of our spaces,
[3:52] even the digital spaces we mentioned
[3:54] earlier.
[3:55] Mm.
[3:56] Everything is designed according to
[3:58] this standard, and anyone who doesn't
[4:00] fit it is categorized as a "special
[4:02] group." That "special group" label is a
[4:04] huge problem, because they aren't a
[4:05] special group—everyone will
[4:07] eventually arrive there.
[4:09] Everyone will travel down this path to
[4:11] that point. So, it's actually everyone.
[4:16] For example, when I get to an airport,
[4:18] I often observe that for those with
[4:20] limited mobility, the terminal is
[4:22] simply vast and endless.
[4:26] Take Pudong Airport for example. If you
[4:29] walk through it, the original design
[4:30] might have been fine, the standard
[4:32] design was okay at the time? Everyone
[4:36] was a commuter or a white-collar worker
[4:38] , carrying a bag, able to move quickly.
[4:48] But if this airport doesn't have many
[4:50] moving walkways, or if it doesn't
[4:52] provide enough chairs on the side, or
[4:54] when you get to the restroom...because
[4:56] one good thing we have now is: We now
[4:57] consider mother-infant needs; many
[4:59] places have started setting up
[5:01] dedicated rooms, but they haven't yet
[5:02] considered that when the elderly go out
[5:04] , they often need to change diapers,
[5:06] for instance.
[5:14] Mm.
[5:16] Because they are wearing diapers, and
[5:17] when they get to those places, they
[5:19] need many handrails. Without handrails,
[5:24] they can't stand or squat at all, and
[5:26] that includes many places today that
[5:28] aren't elderly-friendly. It's
[5:31] practically a disaster. You're thinking
[5:33] , what are these things, really? When
[5:36] the whole society was young, it wasn't
[5:37] a problem, because the core structure
[5:39] of society was young. Now, if the
[5:42] elderly population reaches 25%or more,
[5:44] all these spaces will have to be
[5:46] completely renovated. Without
[5:48] renovations, seniors really can't leave
[5:50] their homes. Every senior would be
[5:52] stuck at home, just as you said—even
[5:53] if you didn't want to hide them, it
[5:55] wouldn't matter; they'd be forced into
[5:57] hiding. Because they can't get out,
[5:58] yeah.
[5:59] A friend of mine recently tried a new
[6:02] gadget; he tested out an exoskeleton.
[6:05] Think about it, when you're old and
[6:07] less mobile, it’s mostly about this
[6:09] middle section here—whether your
[6:10] bones can run or walk. He’s about a
[6:14] dozen years older than my brother, and
[6:15] he felt his legs weren't as nimble. He
[6:19] loves using these kinds of new products
[6:21] , so he bought one and said it made
[6:22] walking feel really effortless. Wait,
[6:25] no, let me tell you.
[6:27] Right, he did have a "but" later on.
[6:29] He started hopping around, and first
[6:31] off, he realized the battery life
[6:33] wasn't long enough, and then...
[6:35] No battery left.
[6:36] And carrying an extra battery is heavy,
[6:38] right?
[6:39] Second, he said this thing is truly a
[6:41] first-generation product. The design
[6:43] didn't account for things like, say,
[6:45] the battery—it should be designed
[6:46] from the top, but it was designed from
[6:48] the bottom up, you know? One hop and it
[6:50] falls right out. That’s a problem.
[6:52] Plus, after you get used to it, when
[6:54] you turn the power off and walk on your
[6:56] own, you actually feel like your legs
[6:58] have even less strength. So, this is
[7:01] the first generation. As an optimist,
[7:03] an optimist who is gradually aging, he
[7:05] wonders if these products will get
[7:07] better in the future and help us move
[7:09] around more freely. Because I have a
[7:11] student who works on exoskeletons.
[7:13] And I discovered a problem, which isn't
[7:15] the same problem Yijun just mentioned.
[7:18] These exoskeletons currently place
[7:19] quite high demands on your lower back.
[7:22] Oh.
[7:22] Oh.
[7:23] They're trying their best to make the
[7:24] materials lighter and lighter, because
[7:26] it won't work if it's heavy, but even
[7:28] if it's light, it still affects your
[7:29] back.
[7:29] Because the lower back is a
[7:31] load-bearing area.
[7:32] Right.
[7:33] Like people like me, since we're always
[7:35] sitting down, we all have back issues.
[7:37] And after a while, you'll find your
[7:39] waist can't take it; when you walk, you
[7:41] can lift your legs quite high, and it
[7:43] even feels a bit like floating.
[7:45] But the problem is, for this
[7:46] load-bearing part,
[7:47] it doesn't solve the issue with the
[7:49] waist.
[7:49] It’s basically the same feeling; you
[7:51] still have to rely on your waist to
[7:52] control it.
[7:53] Yes, because the whole thing—
[7:55] including how it's worn—the center of
[7:57] gravity and force is right on the waist
[8:00] . In the past, it seemed like people
[8:01] didn't really plan for it.
[8:03] Mm, right, because it felt like a very
[8:04] distant thing.
[8:05] Yes. So, will we all live there in the
[8:08] future? It seems like living in nursing
[8:10] homes is still the minority; most
[8:12] Chinese families still stay at home.
[8:14] Yes. That's right.
[8:16] So what will happen in the future? Will
[8:18] children be even less able to take care
[8:20] of their elderly parents later on?
[8:22] Well, this was first proposed by
[8:24] Shanghai, because in terms of aging
[8:26] cities in China, Beijing and Shanghai
[8:29] are among the oldest—they have a
[8:31] large elderly population. So Shanghai
[8:34] was the first to propose this, what
[8:37] they call "9073." It's a ratio, meaning
[8:40] that 90%of people are actually at home.
[8:44] Yes.
[8:45] Yes, and 7%are in what they call
[8:47] community-based elderly care, which is
[8:49] essentially still at home. It’s just
[8:52] that there might be more community
[8:54] resources, and only 3%of people are in
[8:56] nursing homes. So, the people we are
[8:58] talking about here are likely the top
[9:01] tier of that 3%—a very, very small
[9:03] group that is practically negligible
[9:05] when placed within China's total
[9:07] population.
[9:08] Yes.
[9:08] So the reality is that everyone is
[9:10] still at home. And of course, I'm not
[9:12] saying it will always be this way,
[9:13] because it's very obvious that the
[9:15] number of people available to provide
[9:17] care at home is shrinking.
[9:18] Exactly.
[9:19] There just aren't enough people left at
[9:20] home to provide care. Right, so what
[9:22] will this society do in the future?
[9:24] So, it must shift from being at home to
[9:26] being in society. But shifting to
[9:29] society involves a lot of details; for
[9:32] example, going to a nursing home versus
[9:34] staying at home but having strong
[9:36] support within the community—I think
[9:38] those are the two paths.
[9:42] You know, I saw this social survey. It
[9:46] surveyed young people aged 18 to 35. A
[9:52] few years ago, when asked if they had
[9:54] considered their future retirement
[9:56] issues, about 70-something percent said
[9:58] they hadn't, because of their age. But
[10:03] in a new survey conducted a couple of
[10:05] years ago, that figure dropped to 40-
[10:07] something percent. In other words, over
[10:12] half of people aged 18 to 35 are
[10:14] already inquiring about things like
[10:16] pension insurance, right? Because, I
[10:19] mean, the rabbit—what should we call
[10:22] it? Not a rabbit hole, what should we
[10:23] call it? People are starting to wonder,
[10:25] what will happen when we get old?
[10:27] Who can we count on?
[10:28] Right, you—
[10:29] You see so much of it now; seeing is
[10:30] very important.
[10:31] Can you count on your daughter, or how
[10:33] will things be in the future? Do you,
[10:34] do you count on them? On people?
[10:37] I count on a lot, I count on the stock
[10:39] market. Because what you see is very
[10:43] important. Back to my experience just
[10:47] now, every time I go to places with
[10:49] many elderly people, I see two problems
[10:51] : one is my elder, my mother now, and
[10:53] the other is myself. So, when we talk
[10:57] about an aging society, we mean that
[10:58] elderly people taking care of elderly
[11:00] people has become too common.
[11:02] Yes.
[11:03] My mother is over 80; I look at her
[11:05] spirit and health now.
[11:06] Nowadays, it’s 60-year-olds taking
[11:08] care of 80-year-olds; in the past, it
[11:10] was 70-year-olds taking care of people
[11:12] in their 80s or 90s. I used to take my
[11:15] father to the hospital many times
[11:16] before. I saw someone who looked over
[11:20] 80 pushing someone who was 100, someone
[11:22] like a baby sitting in a wheelchair.
[11:24] Old people caring for the old. That’s
[11:28] why when I walked in, I was thinking
[11:30] about those two aging issues,
[11:31] considering, on one hand, when I might
[11:33] find a suitable nursing home for my
[11:35] mother. On the other hand, I
[11:39] immediately think about how I should
[11:41] arrange my own later life. That’s why
[11:46] I say seeing is important. Plus, take
[11:50] our films for example, the stars of
[11:53] Hong Kong cinema, Andy Lau is already
[11:55] over 60, Tony Leung, what about them?
[11:59] Okay, they are all over 60. They are
[12:03] still on the front line past 60, and
[12:06] Chow Yun-fat is over 70. When we see
[12:08] that these influential people in the
[12:10] film industry are already in their 60s
[12:12] or 70s, how can you not think about
[12:14] yourself? So, as you mentioned, more
[12:18] and more people want to save because
[12:20] they have heard more, seen more, and
[12:22] experienced more. Because what is my
[12:26] point? Following Professor Chen’s
[12:28] theory, if we take 100 years old as a
[12:30] human boundary, there is indeed a
[12:32] problem. In the past, we imagined the
[12:35] last stage of life as just "living out
[12:37] one’s remaining days."
[12:39] Not worth mentioning, right? That was
[12:42] the twilight of life, but now, it’s
[12:44] true that if human lifespan increases,
[12:47] many people will live to their 80s, 90s
[12:49] , or even 100. So, starting from 60,
[12:52] that’s 40 years right there. Those 40
[12:55] years are enough for a whole lifetime,
[12:57] or at least half a lifetime.
[12:59] How one plans for this and spends this
[13:01] time—even though the body is
[13:02] gradually declining. Have you ever
[13:04] pondered this kind of issue?
[13:06] Because the stages of life are
[13:08] different now; before, they were
[13:10] clearly divided into childhood,
[13:12] adolescence, then
[13:13] middle age, and then old age. Now, I
[13:16] think dividing them into at least four,
[13:18] or even six, is no problem at all.
[13:22] There is actually a long period before
[13:24] adulthood where people don't fully
[13:26] mature.
[13:27] Hmm.
[13:28] Isn't there that popular internet term
[13:30] now, the "Odyssey years"?
[13:31] Hmm.
[13:32] The Odyssey years are from 18 to 35,
[13:34] like you said.
[13:35] The lost period.
[13:36] Yes, as you mentioned, in the past, if
[13:38] you put them through university, they
[13:40] would be independent, but now finishing
[13:42] university is useless. For example,
[13:44] they are in their 20s, they graduate,
[13:47] but into their 30s, they are still not
[13:49] truly adults.
[13:50] So after puberty, there is an extra
[13:52] stage. I don't know what demographers
[13:55] call it, but online it’s called the "
[13:57] Odyssey years," a term coined by an
[13:59] American author.
[14:00] And of course, during this...
[14:02] You mean still wandering? Nothing is
[14:04] settled, right? Yes, nothing is settled
[14:07] .
[14:08] And they mainly rely on their parents;
[14:09] I have several people around me like
[14:11] that.
[14:13] Then, looking further ahead, you could
[14:15] mark out what you might call the early
[14:17] years of retirement. For instance,
[14:20] China's current policy still sets it at
[14:23] 60, right? But if we go by 60, I think
[14:26] from 60 to 75, let's say 75. During
[14:29] this time, people are still relatively
[14:31] healthy.
[14:32] Yes.
[14:32] It's hard to say what happens after,
[14:34] but this is actually an extra period of
[14:36] time. How to arrange this time is
[14:37] indeed a pretty big issue. Speaking of
[14:40] nursing homes, I saw a figure; it’s
[14:42] not that we don’t have enough nursing
[14:43] homes in our country, but that the
[14:45] vacancy rate is very high.
[14:47] Ah.
[14:48] Yes, why is that? Top-tier nursing
[14:50] homes might be expensive, so people
[14:51] can't get in, and the lower-tier ones
[14:53] aren't good enough, so people won't go
[14:55] there either. That’s the problem;
[14:56] elderly care services might not have
[14:58] kept up. And for those at the bottom,
[15:00] even those types of nursing homes are
[15:02] considered too expensive.
[15:04] Right, or maybe our mindset just hasn't
[15:06] kept up, but China is inevitably facing
[15:08] a massive population decline, right? At
[15:11] this point, our generation can't
[15:13] necessarily count on our children to
[15:14] support us in the future. I always say,
[15:16] everyone talks about "raising children
[15:18] to provide for old age."
[15:19] Raising children doesn't provide for
[15:20] old age anymore.
[15:21] Exactly.
[15:22] That's just how it is, that's just how
[15:23] it is.
[15:24] They've spent all our retirement
[15:25] savings, yeah.
[15:26] Right, that's exactly what happens,
[15:27] including your energy and your health
[15:29] —they're all exhausted by your
[15:31] children, it's true.
[15:32] So, you really can't count on that. In
[15:35] the future, it will definitely be all
[15:36] about institutions and the market. So,
[15:38] we need to focus on the elderly care
[15:40] industry; our care services need to
[15:42] keep up. And I personally believe that
[15:45] in the future, China will see growth in
[15:47] three major industries. The first is
[15:50] the service industry; you know, many of
[15:52] the service staff here at Taikang are
[15:54] college graduates. This type of work
[15:57] wasn't respected before; if you asked
[15:59] someone, "What do you do for a living?"
[16:01] and they said they help the elderly
[16:03] with their daily needs, people would
[16:04] look down on them. They felt
[16:06] discriminated against, but in the
[16:07] future, these people will be in high
[16:09] demand; there aren't enough of these
[16:11] positions.
[16:11] Right.
[16:12] Right, you know, a scholar named Wu
[16:14] Xinyue specifically went to a nursing
[16:17] home in a county-level city in southern
[16:19] Jiangsu to conduct a study. Upon
[16:22] investigating, you'd find that nursing
[16:24] and food costs add up to over 3,000
[16:26] yuan, and some people from rural areas
[16:29] live there too. For example, floors one
[16:31] through four are for those who are
[16:33] still mobile. Those who are less
[16:35] capable or have dementia are on the
[16:36] fifth floor and above. He discovered
[16:38] that these elderly people often used a
[16:41] local phrase, something like "dù sǐ
[16:43] rì"(whiling away the days until death)
[16:45] . Oh.
[16:48] It's a Jiangsu dialect phrase, meaning
[16:50] the elderly have this feeling that once
[16:52] they've finished breakfast, lunch, and
[16:54] dinner, well, another day has just
[16:56] passed. You know, I recently watched
[17:00] that Martin Scorsese film, "The
[17:02] Irishman." At the beginning, I thought
[17:06] this scene was just like some nursing
[17:09] homes, where an old man can sit in a
[17:11] wheelchair for hours, not even watching
[17:13] TV, just staring blankly.
[17:16] Staring blankly. And you know, there's
[17:20] a caregiver there—when an old lady
[17:22] dropped cookie crumbs on the floor and
[17:24] reached out to sweep them up, the
[17:26] caregiver said, "Don't move, just focus
[17:28] on eating." Because they fear accidents
[17:31] , for instance, if an old man breaks
[17:33] his leg, the family comes looking for
[17:36] them; if the nursing home says he was
[17:38] exercising early, well, then...In the
[17:40] end, they still have to pay
[17:41] compensation. So, what is the actual
[17:44] situation in nursing homes at the
[17:46] county-level city that he observed? It
[17:48] is that the elderly are actually
[17:50] restricted in their freedom to some
[17:51] extent.
[17:53] Including the nursing staff: "Don't
[17:55] move, just stay right there." They
[17:58] don't encourage you to move. If you
[18:02] want to do things, the so-called
[18:04] nursing aides are actually mostly older
[18:06] aunts from rural areas, we just call
[18:08] them "Auntie." They themselves feel
[18:11] this kind of work is beneath them, and
[18:13] they look down on themselves too. For
[18:14] example, during his investigation, he
[18:17] saw a nursing aide, an auntie from the
[18:19] countryside, helping a grandmother—
[18:21] that grandma was quite heavy. You know,
[18:24] lifting takes skill, I've learned that,
[18:26] right? You have to hold her like that,
[18:28] have her hold onto you, support her
[18:29] weight, before you can move her to the
[18:31] wheelchair. After all that effort to
[18:33] get her into the wheelchair, she seemed
[18:36] to be venting as she spoke to the
[18:37] grandmother, pointing out that this
[18:39] work is only for people like us, saying
[18:41] , "Look at college students or people
[18:43] with PhDs, they wouldn't do this kind
[18:45] of work." It means they also look down
[18:47] on the job of changing diapers and
[18:49] helping with the bathroom. So he
[18:50] suggests, he says language is important
[18:53] .
[18:53] Mhm.
[18:54] He suggests that in the future, they
[18:55] should be called "care specialists."
[18:57] Mhm.
[18:57] It’s hard to just call them nursing
[18:59] aides.
[18:59] In Japan, they are called "care workers
[19:01] ." Care workers—this "care specialist
[19:03] " is a profession. Honestly, I tell you
[19:05] , it's much more professional than what
[19:07] family members do, it's just...
[19:08] Can universities open up this major in
[19:10] the future?
[19:10] There should be.
[19:11] Actually, it's not quite that, what is
[19:13] primarily needed now is the reform of
[19:15] medical schools. They do have nursing
[19:17] programs.
[19:19] But the nursing profession still serves
[19:21] people inside the hospital. What we
[19:25] really need now is for people who have
[19:27] this professional training to be able
[19:29] to go into the community and even into
[19:30] homes.
[19:33] Mhm.
[19:34] It’s something like that, because...
[19:36] Because medical and nursing staff are
[19:37] currently all still inside the
[19:38] hospitals.
[19:39] Right.
[19:39] They aren't out there.
[19:41] Right now, when you are at home, if you
[19:43] encounter this situation, you need
[19:44] someone who...I mean, first, there must
[19:47] be enough people who can leave the
[19:48] hospitals and go to these places;
[19:50] second, there must be a question of
[19:52] certification. Because once you're in
[19:54] the hospital, everything seems
[19:55] controllable. But if something happens
[19:58] at home, whose risk is that?
[20:01] They need to have the qualifications,
[20:02] and we need to allow these people to
[20:04] come into the home to play that role. I
[20:08] think this would solve a great many
[20:09] problems. There are all kinds of
[20:14] technical issues, whether it's language
[20:16] or the right mindset, but we can't just
[20:18] wait for the whole system to catch up
[20:20] before we grow old. Aging doesn't stop.
[20:26] You can't just say, "I won't grow old
[20:27] because the system or training isn't
[20:29] ready yet." It's not that perfect, so
[20:33] you still have to make your own
[20:35] arrangements and think ahead. Look at
[20:38] the resources; I read reports that many
[20:40] elderly people in Hong Kong are moving
[20:42] to Guangdong.
[20:42] Right.
[20:44] And some Germans are moving to Poland.
[20:47] Do British people go to India? Lower
[20:50] costs.
[20:51] They go to warmer places. It all
[20:53] depends on each person's individual
[20:54] conditions, abilities, and options.
[20:57] I’m saying you have to make plans in
[20:59] advance; you can't wait for the system
[21:01] to change, so mindset is very important
[21:03] . I have personally started adjusting
[21:07] my own mindset, realizing that even
[21:09] before you're old, life isn't
[21:10] necessarily perfect.
[21:13] Mm.
[21:14] In your teens, you have teen health
[21:16] issues and psychological problems.
[21:19] Being lost about the future is also
[21:21] very painful. Then, in middle age, work
[21:24] is exhausting, and there are many
[21:26] emotional blows in relationships. When
[21:30] you're old, whether you live at home or
[21:32] in a nursing home, if things are not as
[21:34] you wish, then so be it. Sometimes we
[21:37] look at them and say, "Oh, how
[21:39] miserable," but that misery and
[21:41] suffering are what they are
[21:42] experiencing. Life is essentially
[21:45] suffering. As for the suffering of old
[21:49] age, sometimes when we aren't old yet,
[21:50] or when we are caring for the elderly,
[21:52] we feel bitter on their behalf. I've
[21:59] mentally prepared myself that every age
[22:01] has its own struggles, so I’ve
[22:03] divided up my next 20 years, say from
[22:05] 63 to 83. What can I do from my 60s to
[22:10] my 70s? Just like we said, cultivating
[22:13] the next generation. As for my ideals
[22:15] or what I want to do, people often
[22:17] think I'm joking. Professor Hu might be
[22:20] hearing this for the first time—can I
[22:22] talk about the novel I'm writing? "
[22:24] Chronicles of Two Heavens." But I’m
[22:26] afraid someone might steal the idea.
[22:28] Don't worry, I’ll help you type it.
[22:30] I often say that once I finish my book
[22:32] and write my final piece, I'm going to
[22:33] hold a concert. I’m going to hold a
[22:35] concert. My friends all laugh, but
[22:36] you’re the only one who didn’t.
[22:38] I’m serious about the concert.
[22:40] I’m really trying to process this.
[22:42] A concert?
[22:43] It’s hard to process. I’ll sing my
[22:45] heart out. Hey, I’ve even thought of
[22:48] the setlist. The first song is "My
[22:50] Skate Shoes."
[22:51] Skate wolf.
[22:52] Why not? Why can't I? It’s just
[22:55] giving myself a challenge. Alright,
[22:59] once I pass this first stage of old age
[23:01] and these challenges, I’ll move on to
[23:03] the next. I’m not sure what it’ll
[23:07] be yet, maybe by then I’ll really be
[23:09] working on my muscles. I think what
[23:12] you’re saying is on the same path as
[23:14] what Yijun said—you know, storing
[23:16] muscles, storing money.
[23:18] Exactly.
[23:18] Storing brainpower, right? Just storing
[23:21] hobbies—it’s all about storing.
[23:23] I’m not just storing; I’m putting
[23:24] it into practice. I really am going to
[23:26] hold a concert, and I’ll give you a
[23:27] ticket when the time comes.
[23:28] Then I’ll definitely have to go. No
[23:29] —
[23:30] I’ll be in a wheelchair by then.
[23:31] Listen, Wentao, what about you? What
[23:33] will your next 40 years be like? How
[23:34] can you talk such nonsense?
[23:36] I—my thoughts are just so rich.
[23:38] Because I find it hard to imagine a
[23:40] phase—have you thought about it?—
[23:42] where you might reach a point where you
[23:44] can’t even take care of your own
[23:46] bodily functions for a long time.
[23:48] Hmm, a caregiver helping you every day.
[23:52] It seems everyone is used to thinking
[23:54] it’s mostly "aunties" who do this
[23:56] work; actually, it is mostly aunties.
[24:00] Right, but the aunties are also quite
[24:02] embarrassed. At first, I just thought,
[24:05] when that day comes, if for a long,
[24:08] long time you have to relieve yourself
[24:10] in bed all day and just lie there—and
[24:12] actually, you know, you only have half
[24:14] your consciousness, you might not be
[24:17] able to think clearly, you might have
[24:19] lapses in perception, or even
[24:20] psychiatric symptoms. This is entirely
[24:24] possible. For instance, with dementia,
[24:26] you might think you’re in control,
[24:28] but you’re actually being controlled
[24:30] by psychiatric symptoms. You might
[24:32] become pathologically suspicious. You
[24:35] might become paranoid, thinking that
[24:37] all the doctors and nurses are trying
[24:38] to harm you. This is a state that
[24:41] hasn't arrived for us yet, but it’s
[24:43] one we might face. In that state, how
[24:44] long would you want to live?
[24:46] That is, you—
[24:47] Would you be willing to live in that
[24:48] state?
[24:48] I actually have a bit to say about this
[24:50] .
[24:50] Right. I’ve recently been looking
[24:52] into—not studying, but paying
[24:54] attention to—the issue of elderly
[24:56] palliative care.
[24:57] Ah, hmm. Yeah, because this sounds like
[25:00] a pretty simple thing, but it's
[25:02] actually not simple, because in those
[25:04] caregiver support groups I'm in, they
[25:06] talk every day about, "What kind of
[25:08] adult diapers should I use?" But a lot
[25:11] of the time, I can't use regular
[25:13] diapers; I have to use what are called
[25:15] pull-ups.
[25:16] Hmm.
[25:16] You know the difference between
[25:18] pull-ups and diapers, right? I
[25:19] Yeah, I do. I buy them for my grandma
[25:21] all the time, I know.
[25:22] And there's the stuff you put
[25:23] underneath,
[25:23] the underpads, also called incontinence
[25:25] pads. Hmm.
[25:26] Sometimes, inside the diaper, there's
[25:29] another thing called an insert. Or a
[25:32] booster pad. You know why they discuss
[25:35] this every day? Because this—this
[25:38] incontinence—is a nightmare for every
[25:41] caregiver. Because it means you have to
[25:44] constantly wash everything over and
[25:46] over. You have to repeatedly clean and
[25:48] wipe down the elderly person. And if
[25:51] this happens a couple of times during
[25:53] the night, you—you just can't get any
[25:55] sleep at all.
[25:56] You've experienced it yourself.
[25:58] Yes, or when you have to go out,
[26:00] because sometimes you have to go out to
[26:02] the hospital, right? This problem,
[26:06] strictly speaking, is just about a
[26:08] little piece of non-woven fabric. But
[26:12] you have to make that non-woven fabric
[26:14] with good absorption capabilities. And
[26:18] the side leakage guards need to be wide
[26:20] enough. And it shouldn't hold odors.
[26:25] Also, when summer comes, it can't be
[26:28] too thick, or it will cause skin
[26:29] irritation and rashes.
[26:33] There are all kinds of things. You just
[26:36] mentioned the caregiver taking care of
[26:38] an elderly man.
[26:39] Right.
[26:40] Actually, for elderly women, due to
[26:42] their physiology,
[26:44] they actually face even greater
[26:46] challenges than elderly men.
[26:48] Right.
[26:50] So, this is a very tangible, vital part
[26:53] of life. That’s why I’m saying that
[27:00] manufacturers really need to study how
[27:01] to develop the best diapers for the
[27:03] elderly, like they do for baby diapers
[27:05] and products.
[27:10] Hmm.
[27:11] For babies, there are big brands,
[27:13] various product tiers, and segmentation
[27:15] . For elderly diapers, they are, first,
[27:18] cheap; second, the materials aren't
[27:21] great; and third, there are basically
[27:23] no real brands. In other words, we
[27:26] don't value the elderly market at all.
[27:29] But the probability of elderly people
[27:31] needing diapers is extremely high.
[27:35] What you said really resonates with me.
[27:38] It’s like, society,
[27:40] it has such hope for children.
[27:42] Yes.
[27:42] It's full of hope. Aging is truly, at
[27:46] times, a form of human destiny. My
[27:50] brother once told me about something he
[27:52] saw; he said he watched a documentary
[27:54] that featured an animation. It made him
[27:58] realize that some things are just
[28:00] inevitable. He said this animation
[28:02] depicted humanity, starting from our
[28:04] early ancestors. He said they were
[28:06] walking forward in a single line. The
[28:08] children were at the front, while the
[28:10] elderly at the back gradually hunched
[28:12] over, walking slower and slower,
[28:14] falling behind the rest of the pack. My
[28:17] brother said that imagery really struck
[28:19] him—the elderly at the very end
[28:21] becoming more and more frail, until
[28:23] finally, they just collapsed onto the
[28:26] ground. Some would cry out, and then
[28:28] someone, a middle-aged person in the
[28:30] middle of the line, would look back,
[28:32] take a look, and try to help the
[28:34] elderly person up to keep moving. But
[28:36] the elderly person couldn't take two
[28:38] steps before falling again. Then the
[28:40] person would look back, call out, but
[28:42] still have to move forward, unable to
[28:44] return because the children were still
[28:46] heading ahead. This line of humanity,
[28:49] in the end, just kept seeing the
[28:51] elderly fall like that, but,
[28:57] yet I always feel that perhaps now, we
[28:59] might have the conditions to soften
[29:01] this cruel biological rule. I think
[29:05] what Professor Hu is saying perfectly
[29:07] illustrates that we have great
[29:08] potential in the "silver economy." The
[29:11] silver economy doesn't necessarily mean
[29:12] you have to profit off the elderly, but
[29:14] it does show we aren't caring for them
[29:16] enough. How do we develop products that
[29:18] truly meet their needs, just like we do
[29:20] for children, right? It shows there is
[29:22] great potential. I believe that
[29:23] throughout Chinese history, we have
[29:25] never seen an elder-care crisis like
[29:26] the one we have today. In reality, such
[29:28] a crisis has never existed before; this
[29:30] is the first time. That is my take.
[29:32] You're taking the post-90s generation,
[29:34] who are already struggling to get by,
[29:36] and adding even more anxiety to their
[29:38] lives. No,
[29:39] if they don't face it now, the anxiety
[29:41] will be even greater when they reach
[29:42] middle age.
[29:43] I’ve noticed that nowadays, parents
[29:45] of this post-90s generation,
[29:47] hmm,
[29:47] are all saying—my friends around me
[29:49] are all saying—that they absolutely
[29:50] won't rely on their children to support
[29:52] them.
[29:53] But they can't simply opt out either.
[29:55] From the perspective of familial
[29:56] affection, it’s something they still
[29:58] have to do. If they don't help, what
[30:00] exactly does "helping" even mean? When
[30:02] it comes to things like finding a
[30:04] hospital, they will need you to help.
[30:05] They have no way to navigate the
[30:07] hospitals themselves. They can't figure
[30:08] out how to use digital systems to book
[30:10] appointments. Even when it comes to the
[30:13] very end—when they are healthy,
[30:14] it’s fine, they can manage without
[30:16] their children's help. But in the end,
[30:18] if they need to go to a hospital, they
[30:19] can't even climb to the second floor on
[30:20] their own. If they don't turn to their
[30:22] children, who else can they turn to?
[30:23] Hiring a caregiver works too. With such
[30:27] widespread availability of caregiving
[30:28] services now, Hu told me the other day
[30:30] that at the most critical moments,
[30:32] it’s really about family affection.
[30:35] No one can replace that, but what is
[30:37] family affection? Well, family
[30:39] affection means your children. But
[30:41] first of all, the children don't have
[30:43] the skills for that.
[30:45] Who has these skills?
[30:46] Right, they don't have the skills to
[30:48] provide care. In our traditional
[30:53] Chinese society, if nobody had those
[30:55] skills, it could be shared and divided
[30:57] among four or three children. Now
[31:03] there’s only one, so what can be done
[31:05] ? So your call to society was about
[31:08] exactly this.
[31:10] What I meant by my call was that your
[31:12] generation should urge the country and
[31:14] also put in effort yourselves to make
[31:16] our national social elderly care system
[31:18] much better. Without a good social
[31:21] pension system, our current
[31:23] family-based elderly care system is
[31:24] already struggling to cope. To this day
[31:28] , over 40 years since the reform and
[31:30] opening up, we have relied on family
[31:32] care. The life expectancy of Chinese
[31:34] people has gone from 60-something in
[31:36] the 70s to over 80 now, reaching 85 in
[31:39] Shanghai. We’ve sustained this for so
[31:41] long through family support alone,
[31:43] without many social elderly care
[31:45] services, which means there is actually
[31:46] room for much more investment.
[31:49] We all have an ideal scenario, for
[31:51] example, when an elderly person in the
[31:54] family gets old and sick. In that case,
[31:57] all medical services or other needs
[31:59] should be handled by public
[32:01] institutions or society, and the family
[32:03] members just provide emotional support
[32:05] by visiting the ward, right? Without
[32:08] the burden of hiring caregivers or the
[32:10] specific burden of family caregiving,
[32:12] do you think this ideal is achievable?
[32:15] Yes, for some people, it has already
[32:17] been achieved. For some people, that is
[32:19] , the relatively wealthy, it has long
[32:21] been achieved.
[32:24] It is unlikely to be universal, but for
[32:26] many people—at least one-tenth of
[32:27] China—it has already been achieved;
[32:29] they can use caregivers or other
[32:31] arrangements to handle this well.
[32:34] To put it bluntly, the wealthy are just
[32:36] a tiny minority.
[32:37] Let’s put it this way: is universal
[32:39] coverage achievable or not? Some say
[32:41] it's not, because our economic level
[32:43] cannot compare with Northern Europe,
[32:45] Western Europe, or France; that is, our
[32:47] wealth accumulation isn't there yet. If
[32:53] we go back to the point, if we could
[32:54] stop the waste, and if we could reduce
[32:56] this, I mean, the huge wealth gap, just
[32:58] narrow it down a bit. It might be
[33:03] achievable.
[33:05] Professor Xu, Teacher Hui, this is our
[33:08] old gang.
[33:11] Professor Xu, this question actually
[33:13] leads perfectly into your research on
[33:15] elder care, end-of-life care, and death
[33:18] . How did you come to focus your
[33:22] research on this in recent years?
[33:25] After I returned to China in 2000,
[33:27] I’ve been doing medical sociology
[33:29] research. I started by researching HIV/
[33:32] AIDS infections, and later I conducted
[33:34] research on suicide among Chinese
[33:36] people. After finishing the suicide
[33:38] research, I began studying elder care,
[33:40] and then moved on to death studies.
[33:43] People often didn't want to publish the
[33:44] articles we wrote. No one wanted to
[33:48] publish many articles about death, but
[33:49] I felt that we shouldn't treat all
[33:51] Chinese people as a monolith that views
[33:53] it as taboo. So, recently, from July to
[33:57] August, we held a modern art exhibition
[34:00] at 798 titled "Bringing Death Back to
[34:02] Life." It was full of young people.
[34:05] Do you think young people are
[34:06] interested in death? They are extremely
[34:08] interested—well, not just interested.
[34:11] It’s that they are different from our
[34:13] older generation, who believe we can't
[34:15] talk about, look at, mention, or even
[34:17] touch death. Their taboos are different
[34:19] .
[34:20] You mentioned that even I hesitated to
[34:22] do this show. Because I found my own
[34:23] thoughts to be very chaotic; I have all
[34:26] kinds of ideas. For instance, I have
[34:28] that feeling—back in the Han Dynasty,
[34:30] there was a concept called "avoiding
[34:32] the omen."
[34:32] Like a self-fulfilling prophecy, that
[34:34] kind of omen. Yes. Sometimes I feel
[34:36] like there are certain illnesses one
[34:38] shouldn't mention; if you bring them up
[34:40] , you might just invite them upon
[34:41] yourself. Including death, I feel this
[34:45] kind of hesitation myself. Are you an
[34:49] atheist? I am, or I should say I'm an
[34:53] agnostic.
[34:54] What about you, Professor Xu? "
[34:56] If you do not know life, how can you
[34:58] know death?" I do believe there is an
[35:02] existence, and that existence has its
[35:04] own will. But the point is, it’s very
[35:08] difficult for us humans to communicate
[35:10] with or understand it. There is no way
[35:13] to understand it.
[35:16] Seeing you wearing those sunglasses
[35:18] today reminds me of a documentary. It
[35:24] said that just as our eyes cannot look
[35:26] directly at the sun, many times we
[35:28] humans cannot face that unbearable,
[35:30] naked truth directly; so we need to
[35:32] wear sunglasses to look at the sun,
[35:34] just as we need to put on a pair of
[35:35] shades. These sunglasses are just like
[35:42] many of our funeral rites or the things
[35:44] we do for the deceased. It’s as if
[35:48] they help us avoid facing them directly
[35:50] .
[35:51] Wentao, let me clarify first. When did
[35:53] you hold them up?
[35:56] I, I want to clarify, I’m wearing
[35:57] these sunglasses today because Wentao
[35:59] told me we’d be talking about death,
[36:01] and I’m afraid I’ll cry, afraid
[36:03] that I’ll tear up, so I’m just
[36:04] being prepared.
[36:07] His glasses are fake, they have no
[36:09] prescription.
[36:11] It doesn’t matter if they have no
[36:13] prescription; the point is that when I
[36:15] cry, when my eyes well up, you won’t
[36:17] feel as awkward. Professor Jing, do you
[36:20] think there’s any validity to the
[36:22] taboos surrounding this topic?
[36:26] If we look at history as a whole,
[36:28] it’s unclear exactly when we turned
[36:30] this into, how should I put it, a taboo
[36:32] . But in the early days, if you look at
[36:36] the Warring States period, the Qin
[36:38] dynasty, or even the Tang dynasty,
[36:40] there was something called "deathbed
[36:42] poetry." This culture was not only
[36:45] about solemnity, but also about
[36:47] open-mindedness and a form of
[36:49] naturalism. The explanations for death
[36:52] in ancient China were incredibly
[36:54] brilliant, and they did include taboos.
[36:57] But that was only one part of it.
[37:00] However, in our society today, it seems
[37:02] that taboos regarding death have
[37:04] increasingly become our primary,
[37:06] instinctive reaction to it, which
[37:08] hasn't historically been the case. In
[37:11] your article, you also mentioned that
[37:13] cultures in different countries are
[37:15] truly very different; for example, in
[37:16] Central and South America, there were
[37:18] the Aztecs.
[37:19] Right, they have the Day of the Dead.
[37:22] They treat death like a carnival.
[37:27] I think China actually has that too,
[37:29] like during the Ghost Festival; it’s
[37:31] just that throughout the course of
[37:32] history, we’ve evolved—actually, in
[37:34] the past, we used to set off long
[37:36] firecrackers. Lanterns; and if you look
[37:40] at the Song dynasty, there’s the "
[37:42] Skeleton Fantasy Painting." We recently
[37:45] took the "Skeleton Fantasy Painting,"
[37:47] and our teacher at Tsinghua, Wang
[37:49] Zhigang, turned it into an interactive
[37:51] installation. How old were the children
[37:53] ? Children of any age can come into
[37:56] this room in our exhibition and
[37:57] interact with the skeleton. This
[38:00] existed in the Song dynasty, which
[38:02] means that back then, on the streets,
[38:04] people were already using skeletons as
[38:06] puppets; the integration was so casual
[38:08] and strong that it even entered the
[38:09] artwork. So, historically speaking, it
[38:13] seems that the reaction to death in
[38:15] Chinese cultural history hasn't been so
[38:17] singular; in fact, it’s actually
[38:19] quite complex. It's just that I feel
[38:24] since entering modern society, our
[38:26] general approach has been: don't talk
[38:28] about it, don't mention it, don't touch
[38:30] it, and don't look at it. But why is it
[38:33] like this? My take is that I feel our
[38:36] own society is increasingly lacking the
[38:38] imagination for other possibilities.
[38:42] Religion, on the other hand, is a
[38:44] supreme form of imagination for those
[38:46] other possibilities. It’s saying that
[38:50] my existence isn't just materialistic;
[38:51] I have another explanation for it. For
[38:56] example, our perception of the body—
[38:58] take how in hospitals today, once
[38:59] someone dies, they must leave the bed
[39:01] within an hour and go straight to the
[39:03] morgue.
[39:05] Mm.
[39:06] What kind of place is a morgue? Every
[39:09] hospital morgue is just a filthy, cold
[39:11] place. But if you look at the teachings
[39:15] of Master Yinguang or Master Hongyi,
[39:17] they would say that for 48 hours after
[39:19] someone dies, they still have
[39:20] perception, so you shouldn't disturb
[39:22] them. They have a completely different
[39:25] set of explanations. But now, our
[39:29] explanation—if I may be blunt—is a
[39:31] materialistic one, where only science
[39:33] can explain death, and nothing else can
[39:36] . Our entire society's view on death is
[39:41] singular, and it's also very cruel:
[39:43] once you die, you’re just a pile of
[39:45] ashes, and that's it. This is truly
[39:49] terrifying for all of humanity.
[39:54] Professor Xu mentioned in our first
[39:56] episode a near-death experience he
[39:58] recently had, where he lost
[39:59] consciousness for six minutes in the
[40:01] waters off Tahiti. Professor Xu, at
[40:07] your age now...Do you avoid thinking
[40:09] about it, and just let come what may?
[40:13] Or do you find yourself thinking about
[40:14] it from time to time?
[40:16] Better not talk about it; my family
[40:18] criticized me after I brought it up
[40:19] last time.
[40:20] Why?
[40:21] They felt it wasn't appropriate to talk
[40:23] about such things.
[40:23] What was their reasoning?
[40:25] No real reason; they just didn't want
[40:26] to discuss it.
[40:27] Right, you see, that’s it—many
[40:29] people have this kind of taboo
[40:31] mentality about talking about it openly
[40:33] . Is there a problem with that? It’s
[40:38] basically what Chinese people call "
[40:40] karmic retribution"—that by talking
[40:42] about it, you’ll bring it upon
[40:43] yourself. For example, we aren't
[40:48] supposed to sweep the floor during
[40:49] holidays; there are many such taboos,
[40:51] and if you break them, you'll be
[40:53] punished. Talking about life and death
[40:57] is a big deal. Recently, in our "
[41:02] Bringing Death Back to Life" exhibition
[41:04] , a key focus was how we can use art to
[41:07] reveal the multifaceted nature of death
[41:09] . A student from a certain university
[41:15] created an installation called "One
[41:17] Step Too Late." In this installation,
[41:21] there’s a light above; if you look up
[41:23] , you only see a sliver of light. Below
[41:27] , you experience a sense of
[41:28] weightlessness, and opposite you is an
[41:30] artistic image they created—breathing
[41:32] , with the mouth covered and sealed.
[41:39] Finally, there is the sound of someone
[41:41] unable to breathe, along with a
[41:43] ventilator; it lets us feel what the
[41:45] final moments of life are like—just
[41:46] the sound of a ventilator clicking,
[41:48] something many of us have never even
[41:50] seen before. Even if they have seen it,
[41:57] they prefer to push it out of their
[41:58] consciousness as quickly as possible.
[42:02] But when we turn it into an art piece,
[42:04] some children walk inside and ask their
[42:06] mothers what it is. The taboo around
[42:10] the discourse of death is very
[42:11] interesting; it makes you wonder where
[42:13] these taboos come from.
[42:14] Hmm.
[42:16] Since you are an atheist, why are you
[42:17] afraid to talk about this subject? So I
[42:21] feel that most of us are actually not
[42:23] atheists. But they are agnostics; they
[42:26] aren't theists either, they are
[42:28] agnostics. The issue is very complex,
[42:32] which is why during this exhibition,
[42:34] 750,000 people provided feedback on
[42:37] Xiaohongshu. At first, I didn't
[42:39] understand the demographic of
[42:40] Xiaohongshu, and I wondered why there
[42:42] was so much engagement there. They told
[42:46] me Xiaohongshu has a higher proportion
[42:48] of women, and then I finally understood
[42:50] , because during our public education
[42:52] events, 80%of the attendees were women
[42:54] —young women, that is. I have my own
[42:58] rather rough explanation, which might
[43:00] be this. It’s that in our traditional
[43:04] Chinese culture, the dirty and heavy
[43:06] work of end-of-life care is basically
[43:08] all borne by women.
[43:11] Oh. This topic is also quite popular on
[43:14] Xiaohongshu, can you explain this
[43:16] phenomenon?
[43:19] Actually, that makes sense, but if you
[43:21] look back at traditions, especially in
[43:23] funeral rites, men are still the ones
[43:25] in charge. Right, let me give you an
[43:30] example. My father passed away two
[43:32] years ago. During the whole process, we
[43:35] were preparing for the funeral,
[43:37] notifying relatives and friends, and
[43:38] making arrangements. My sisters did a
[43:42] lot, and of course, I did too. But when
[43:46] it came time for the funeral ceremony,
[43:48] I remember it was the first time in my
[43:50] life I felt so strongly the weight of
[43:52] Chinese patriarchal tradition. I was
[43:57] the son; I stood there doing all the
[43:59] bowing—we men had our specific roles.
[44:03] We were out in front, and they stood
[44:05] behind, sometimes not even being able
[44:07] to stand behind. I had to stand there
[44:10] holding various, well, I don’t even
[44:12] know what the ritual items were. I had
[44:15] to stand at the very front, leading my
[44:17] sisters and other female family members
[44:19] . That was the first time in my life I
[44:23] felt I had such a high status in the
[44:25] family.
[44:26] This was in Hong Kong, in Hong Kong.
[44:28] In Hong Kong, I usually don't have much
[44:30] status. When the family eats together,
[44:32] it’s the women doing all the talking.
[44:34] I just listen. I’m basically the one
[44:36] who gets scolded; my sister scolds me,
[44:39] my mom scolds me, that’s how it is.
[44:41] But that time, I felt, oh, they were
[44:43] all bowing to me. It was like the
[44:46] female members of my family were
[44:48] looking up to me. Of course, I also
[44:52] ended up paying the funeral bill, so
[44:54] that was the more painful, the literal
[44:56] painful part.
[44:59] If that were a kingdom, you’d be the
[45:01] new emperor.
[45:02] Yeah, exactly. Now I’ve just
[45:05] inherited a pile of debt. But coming
[45:08] back to this, Zidong, sorry, you
[45:10] mentioned your family scolded you,
[45:11] criticizing you and telling you not to
[45:13] bring it up. I’m quite curious,
[45:16] because you didn’t die; you’re
[45:18] alive. They should be very happy and
[45:20] want to talk about it over and over. So
[45:23] I’m wondering, when we talk about
[45:25] death, if there’s really a taboo,
[45:27] it’s perhaps not about death itself.
[45:30] It’s more about the feelings and
[45:31] emotions that death brings. Zidong,
[45:34] maybe your family doesn't want you to
[45:35] talk about it because they don't want
[45:37] to bring up the unexpected. We want to
[45:40] avoid the unexpected.
[45:42] That’s a way to put it.
[45:43] Avoiding separation, avoiding anxiety,
[45:46] and that sense of grief.
[45:49] These people have no empathy.
[45:51] Making a big deal out of it on the
[45:52] sidelines.
[45:54] This family meeting...I think, well,
[45:56] what do I really feel deep down? See, I
[45:59] don't like talking about this either.
[46:03] We must discuss this, as it actually
[46:05] relates to our confusion about the
[46:06] truth of life and this world. Chinese
[46:10] people are inherently pragmatic—who
[46:13] knows if it’s real or fake, who knows
[46:15] if it exists or not? It's better if I
[46:18] don't talk about it. But I think about
[46:20] these existential questions almost
[46:22] every day, and I find them very
[46:23] meaningful. For instance, like Master
[46:26] Yinguang you just mentioned, a
[46:27] prominent monk of the Pure Land
[46:29] tradition during the Republican era—
[46:31] he advocated keeping the word "death"
[46:33] pinned to one's forehead.
[46:35] Hmm.
[46:36] Meaning, how can you lead a positive
[46:38] and healthy life? He actually suggests
[46:40] that if you think about this every day,
[46:42] you will cherish the fact that you are
[46:44] alive today. If this were the last day
[46:47] of my life, is what I'm doing now what
[46:49] I want to be doing? Is what I'm saying
[46:52] now what I want to be saying? It’s so
[46:55] exhausting to live like that. But it is
[46:58] something you need to learn and face.
[47:01] That's why I often say that for
[47:03] children, we now emphasize sex
[47:04] education, right? I think we should
[47:08] also have "death education." How you
[47:12] face and handle it—not just the
[47:14] technical side, which is very important
[47:16] , like how to arrange ceremonies,
[47:18] manage finances, and so on—but also
[47:20] the emotional response. I remember one
[47:24] incident very clearly. It happened in
[47:28] Hong Kong, I think, or maybe the
[47:30] Philippines—a boat, a tour group—
[47:32] there was an accident and quite a few
[47:34] people died. Then there was a news
[47:40] report saying that those who died at
[47:42] sea were unfortunately found, and their
[47:43] bodies were being sent back in batches.
[47:48] OK, there was this man whose wife and
[47:50] two children had all died. Two or three
[47:53] of them—basically, he was the only
[47:55] one left in his family. He didn't go on
[47:57] the trip; he was waiting in Hong Kong.
[47:59] Then, one day, the bodies of his two
[48:02] sons were sent back. The news captured
[48:06] him kneeling there, wailing in agony,
[48:08] you know, OK. Then by evening, his
[48:12] wife's body was sent back. The news
[48:17] headline was quite striking, something
[48:19] like "Kneeling for his sons in the
[48:21] morning, mourning his wife at night."
[48:27] I just thought, "My God," if you
[48:28] encounter a situation like this, how do
[48:30] you go on living your life after that?
[48:33] Such a tragedy happening all in one day
[48:35] . News of tragedies like this makes me
[48:38] anxious. I worry that such misfortunes
[48:41] in life could happen at any moment;
[48:43] they could happen to others, and they
[48:45] could just as easily happen to me. I
[48:52] was almost curious about how they would
[48:54] respond to the film, having somewhat
[48:55] prepared myself mentally for how I
[48:57] might cope if a tragedy were to occur
[48:59] in life; I do have this existential
[49:01] anxiety.
[49:09] So I hesitated until the very end about
[49:11] whether to share it or not, but I felt
[49:13] as if it were a sign from above; Mr.
[49:15] Jing initially refused us, fearing he
[49:17] might regret doing many interviews, but
[49:19] finally, the news came that he agreed
[49:21] to come. I said, that must be heaven
[49:27] telling us to speak. Why wouldn't the
[49:59] family approve?
[50:00] I can understand that.
[50:01] They don't want to talk too much about
[50:03] their own affairs.
[50:03] It’s not necessarily about his family
[50:05] specifically; it’s likely that they
[50:06] just don't allow privacy to be
[50:07] discussed.
[50:08] Ah, right. You would receive many calls
[50:10] of condolence, which is unpleasant,
[50:12] right?
[50:14] Because our show is actually based on
[50:16] conversations from daily life.
[50:19] Professor Xu mentioned this last time.
[50:21] He said, look, Chinese people
[50:23] traditionally aren't used to seeing
[50:25] psychologists; unlike Westerners, who
[50:27] categorize everything—for example,
[50:28] clubs for those quitting alcohol,
[50:30] support groups for those quitting
[50:32] something, or PTSD organizations. But
[50:34] you see, for Chinese people, many
[50:36] things are resolved through
[50:37] conversation. This is one instance
[50:39] where I feel there is a real difference
[50:41] between the East and the West; you have
[50:43] spent time in Hawaii, and I also have a
[50:45] teacher who lived in the US for many
[50:46] years and also spent over a decade in
[50:48] Hawaii.
[50:49] Later, he also returned to Beijing,
[50:50] returned to the country. You see, I am
[50:53] a very typical Chinese person.
[50:55] Regarding my parents 'geriatric
[50:57] illnesses, sometimes when I chat with
[50:59] friends, I talk about it. As I talk,
[51:01] you can see them listening and feeling
[51:03] a bit awkward. Later, he told me
[51:07] privately, "You shouldn't talk about
[51:09] these family matters when we're
[51:10] chatting, because it makes us feel
[51:12] burdened." He said that according to
[51:17] Western culture, you shouldn't discuss
[51:19] your family's personal business in a
[51:21] group setting. We think it's still
[51:24] about trusting friends or finding an
[51:25] outlet. But he feels that bringing up
[51:29] one's own family issues in a gathering
[51:31] of friends is inappropriate; I think it
[51:33] depends on the relationship—intimate
[51:35] relationships are different. So
[51:38] everyone's situation is different; for
[51:40] those who are very close, I think
[51:42] Westerners would also agree. It’s
[51:44] just that when everyone is together,
[51:45] it’s for something happy—parties
[51:47] are meant to be happy events, not to
[51:49] make people feel uncomfortable.
[51:50] Right.
[51:51] If you need to talk about being
[51:52] uncomfortable or unhappy, you should
[51:54] find someone to talk to individually.
[51:56] You shouldn't discuss those things at a
[51:58] party. Discussing this at the very end
[52:02] might be a taboo, and I think it’s a
[52:04] taboo here as well. I don’t think it
[52:07] should be called a taboo;
[52:09] sometimes it’s just because of the
[52:11] grief.
[52:11] You see, that’s why I really want to
[52:13] say something to Jiahui today, because
[52:16] I also lost my father this year.
[52:18] This year.
[52:19] He passed away in January, around April
[52:22] . I think Jiahui is a very devoted son.
[52:26] He often visits his father’s grave,
[52:28] and he strongly suggested that he
[52:29] wanted to talk about his father. At the
[52:35] time, I told him that I felt I hadn't
[52:37] moved on yet, and I was afraid that if
[52:39] we talked about it, I wouldn't be able
[52:41] to sleep at night because it would stir
[52:43] up those painful emotions, so I said
[52:45] let’s not talk about it yet. That’s
[52:50] actually why I’ve avoided talking
[52:51] about it too much. Mhm.
[52:54] But since Professor Jing is here today,
[52:56] I can tell Jiahui that maybe you can
[52:58] talk about your father.
[53:02] I’ll let you talk, since you asked me
[53:04] to, because my father also passed away
[53:06] two years ago, and since it was from a
[53:08] brain illness, thankfully he didn't
[53:10] suffer much, so I think I can share how
[53:12] I've felt these past two years. I often
[53:18] find myself seeing a stranger on the
[53:19] street, someone around eighty or ninety
[53:21] , and I feel like they look so much
[53:23] like my father. When people get to a
[53:32] certain age, there’s a certain look
[53:34] ...just last week, I was taking the
[53:35] East Rail Line back to Hong Kong, and I
[53:38] was sitting there, when a man sitting
[53:40] diagonally across from me by the window
[53:42] —white hair, balding, round face—
[53:44] was just looking at me like that. I
[53:51] don't know why, maybe he was a viewer
[53:53] of the show or something, but he kept
[53:54] looking at me, just kept staring. He
[53:57] watched me the whole ride—I was on
[53:59] that train for about 50 minutes—and I
[54:01] felt so uncomfortable that, by the end,
[54:03] I almost wanted to cry. Why? Because he
[54:06] looked so much like my father. I think,
[54:08] of course, it might just be a
[54:09] psychological effect. Perhaps a certain
[54:12] expression of his reminded me of him,
[54:14] and it certainly wasn't his fault.
[54:18] It wasn't his fault, it was mine; it
[54:20] just stirred up that feeling as if my
[54:22] father had returned and was watching me
[54:24] . Because when someone stares at you
[54:27] like that for 50 minutes, and you know
[54:29] I’m being polite, you know how I
[54:31] stare.
[54:31] You must have been hallucinating; he
[54:33] really stared at you for 50 minutes?
[54:34] Well, he was likely just looking, so I
[54:36] said he must be a fan of the show. What
[54:38] do you mean by "the show"?
[54:39] Wow, look, you've shared some insights
[54:41] about Finland with us, so now I want to
[54:43] share what people are talking about
[54:44] online here.
[54:45] There’s a very unpleasant term.
[54:47] It’s called "kenlao"(living off one's
[54:48] parents).
[54:49] I’ve heard of that.
[54:50] Right, but now, we shouldn't
[54:51] discriminate against any way of life.
[54:54] Mm.
[54:54] Well, there is a type of person who is
[54:56] quite justified in doing so. Living off
[54:58] their parents. For example, finding a
[55:00] job is really difficult right now. So,
[55:03] they go home because they actually
[55:05] can't find work. But this young
[55:10] woman’s parents have a combined
[55:11] pension of nearly 10,000, and her
[55:13] father can’t cook well, nor can her
[55:15] mother, yet the couple just loves to go
[55:17] out and work. And the couple, they
[55:23] don't grasp modern technology at all;
[55:25] smartphones, paying bills, and social
[55:27] security are all confusing to them, but
[55:29] they just love going to work. So
[55:33] there’s this daughter at home who
[55:34] handles all of that. She buys insurance
[55:39] for her parents, manages daily life,
[55:41] and when they get home, she has tasty
[55:43] meals prepared for them. And then, and
[55:47] then, her parents just give her their
[55:49] money; not just as...
[55:51] Which money do they give her?
[55:53] They let her manage the money they earn
[55:55] , so she essentially takes care of her
[55:57] parents' lives.
[55:59] Her parents are actually getting quite
[56:01] old.
[56:01] So, does that mean they pay her a
[56:03] salary?
[56:03] Not exactly; it’s just that they give
[56:05] her the money for household expenses
[56:07] since she’s their child. But in
[56:09] reality, the role she plays in the
[56:11] family is just like yours—buying
[56:13] insurance for them, taking them for
[56:14] medical check-ups, helping them out,
[56:16] and even planning trips for them.
[56:19] That’s how this family survives.
[56:21] Mm.
[56:22] This daughter can be fully justified.
[56:25] Two years ago, there was a very popular
[56:27] group on Douban called the "Full-time
[56:29] Children Exchange Center." Mm.
[56:32] Many people couldn't understand it,
[56:34] thinking it was just a form of "living
[56:36] off one's parents," but she argued: "
[56:37] Doesn't my labor deserve this income?"
[56:40] Our family feels this is great; the
[56:42] parents are happy their daughter
[56:43] doesn't have to leave, and perhaps the
[56:45] only concern is, "Why don't you find a
[56:47] boyfriend?" or "Why aren't you married
[56:49] yet?"
[56:51] But they’ve lived in peace like this
[56:52] so far. Actually, besides "full-time
[56:56] child," there’s an even better name:
[56:59] "domestic internal circulation."
[57:02] Everyone talks about "internal
[57:04] circulation"(domestic economic cycle)
[57:06] now, right? An internal economic cycle
[57:08] means relying on ourselves rather than
[57:10] the outside. A domestic internal cycle
[57:14] is where money is earned and then spent
[57:16] within the family, because from a
[57:17] consumption perspective, I...
[57:22] Of course, for instance, if you handle
[57:24] everything for me, to me, you're also a
[57:26] commodity; I’m buying your services,
[57:28] right? I give you money, and you
[57:32] don’t go out and spend it recklessly,
[57:34] right? You might buy some things back,
[57:39] some describe it as a closed-loop
[57:40] economy, but the point is, if it's a
[57:42] full-time daughter, from this
[57:44] perspective, it's still different from
[57:46] hiring a housekeeper from outside. For
[57:51] example, there's a big difference with
[57:52] the housekeeper in my home. I can scold
[57:55] my housekeeper if she doesn't do a good
[57:57] job.
[57:57] You don't dare scold your daughter.
[57:59] I don't dare scold my daughter.
[58:01] Right? My daughter cooks terrible meals
[58:02] , and there's an even more important
[58:04] difference.
[58:04] With a housekeeper, you can...
[58:06] Hire them this year and choose not to
[58:08] next year.
[58:08] That’s right, you can replace them.
[58:10] Your children...
[58:11] Cannot be replaced.
[58:12] You have your daughter manage the whole
[58:14] house for you, and you still have to be
[58:15] responsible for her life.
[58:17] And you can't even make demands; if I
[58:19] make a demand, it’s not me scolding
[58:20] her, it’s her scolding me back. But
[58:24] if you provide the money, meaning you
[58:25] control your children’s financial
[58:27] lifeline, then can't you speak with
[58:29] more authority? Because...
[58:32] There's an element of love involved;
[58:34] with my housekeeper, there’s no love,
[58:36] you must never have love, you know?
[58:39] I’m always afraid that my housekeeper
[58:41] might love me. Because my housekeeper
[58:43] often comes back saying, "Hey, my
[58:45] housekeeper friends all say, 'You are
[58:47] handsome, your boss is handsome.'" Like
[58:49] that, and I get very terrified.
[58:52] Returning to the point, you have love
[58:54] for your children, so you can't make
[58:55] demands, and of course, you can't
[58:57] replace them either. There’s a saying
[59:01] in Hong Kong: raising children is a "
[59:03] no-capital business"—it costs nothing
[59:05] . It means that generally speaking, no
[59:09] matter how much we clash or have
[59:10] conflicts, I’ll still treat you well
[59:12] two days later, and I’ll still take
[59:14] you out to dinner on your birthday.
[59:17] They have us figured out, right?
[59:20] Yes, they’ve got us figured out, so
[59:22] you can't have too many demands, right?
[59:25] If I tell my daughter her cooking is
[59:27] terrible, she’ll say, "Oh, it's
[59:29] terrible? Cook it yourself then," and
[59:31] she’ll lecture me, right?
[59:33] Can you stop giving her money? Right,
[59:35] you can't stop paying her.
[59:37] Yes, you are all good parents. I’ve
[59:40] heard, you know, that many young people
[59:42] studying abroad really just get
[59:44] attached to that lifestyle. But in
[59:47] reality, they can't find jobs; it’s a
[59:49] global issue. They say there’s a TV
[59:51] show, an American series called "Girls.
[59:54] " Many people felt a strong resonance
[59:56] after watching it, but they still
[59:58] couldn't bring themselves to like this
[60:00] girl. Why is that? Because this girl
[60:02] reflects a reality—there really are
[60:04] girls like this. Their parents tell
[60:06] them, "You've already graduated, why
[60:08] are you still clinging to life in New
[60:10] York? It's been two years since you
[60:12] graduated. Your phone bill, your rent,
[60:14] everything—we’re just ordinary
[60:16] teachers, we can't afford this," and
[60:18] the daughter replies, "Do you know what
[60:20] ? Don't all my friends around me
[60:22] receive support from their parents? If
[60:25] you don't support me, look at a girl I
[60:27] know. After her parents cut her off,
[60:31] she had multiple abortions and even
[60:32] became a drug addict. So..."
[60:35] You're telling me you have experiences
[60:36] like that.
[60:37] That is why Mr. Ma says that love is,
[60:39] in essence, about relationships. Since
[60:41] coming to Finland, the thing I think
[60:42] about most often is relationships.
[60:44] Because I have children now and have
[60:46] become a more independent person, when
[60:48] you want to rely on others but have no
[60:49] friends to rely on, I find myself
[60:51] thinking about relationships. Finland
[60:53] encourages independence from a young
[60:54] age, and it’s not just about the
[60:56] mother being independent. Sure, they
[60:58] give you subsidies, but even for
[60:59] children, if you're unemployed or
[61:00] anything else, it's the state that
[61:02] provides the support. When you're
[61:04] unemployed, you don't go asking your
[61:05] mom for money, saying, "Mom, I can't
[61:07] find a job today, you have to support
[61:09] me." No, you go directly to the social
[61:11] services office and say, "I can't find
[61:13] a job." Then the social services office
[61:15] says, "Okay, what are your career
[61:16] aspirations?""We will help you with
[61:18] training." Then they give you money to
[61:20] start with, allowing you to at least
[61:22] rent a basic place to live. They don't
[61:24] tell you to move back home; they tell
[61:26] you to rent a place outside. Of course,
[61:28] it's not a luxury apartment, but as
[61:29] long as you have the basics of food and
[61:31] shelter, they believe you'll be able to
[61:33] continue looking for a job out there.
[61:35] Until you find what you're looking for,
[61:36] right? Therefore, their first thought
[61:38] for everything is the government, not
[61:40] their parents. Likewise, when parents
[61:42] grow old and need help, they don't
[61:44] think about having their children bring
[61:45] them home to care for them; they think
[61:47] about going to the government and
[61:49] asking, "Do I have any retirement or
[61:50] elderly subsidies?" Right? Just like
[61:52] our social insurance and pension funds,
[61:54] right? You start receiving money, and
[61:56] once you have it, you start thinking, "
[61:58] Now I need someone to come and visit me
[62:00] .""The social services department would
[62:02] then say, 'Okay, I'll find a nurse to
[62:03] visit you, and if you need injections
[62:05] or anything else, we can even arrange
[62:07] for walks.'" I'll come visit you every
[62:08] so often and take you out for a walk. "
[62:10] So, really, everyone can live alone,
[62:12] regardless of age—excluding children,
[62:15] of course—anyone can. That makes
[62:17] things interesting. Their relationships
[62:21] aren't as tight-knit as our family ties
[62:23] , I have to admit, but when they do
[62:25] choose to be together—that is, when
[62:27] children and parents are at my age and
[62:29] they still want to be together—they
[62:30] tell me this is 'pure love,' meaning
[62:32] it's real love.
[62:36] There's no money involved between us.
[62:38] Right? I truly love you, I really like
[62:41] you, and I enjoy being with you, which
[62:43] is why I come back to see you. And you
[62:45] like being with me too, so you come. My
[62:48] friend's parents were so independent
[62:50] that when he had to go on a four-day
[62:51] business trip and had no one to look
[62:53] after his child, he asked his parents
[62:55] to come down from central Finland.
[62:57] After taking care of the child for two
[62:59] days, his parents said," For the other
[63:01] two days, I'm going to our cabin—
[63:02] Finns love their summer cabins—I'm
[63:04] going to the cabin. "
[63:05] It wasn't a big deal; it wasn't an
[63:07] emergency, so they said," For the other
[63:09] two days, you find a nanny. "
[63:10] Exactly, exactly.
[63:12] And they just left. It sounds like
[63:13] another world, it really does. But you
[63:18] know, this model doesn't always
[63:19] translate because, look, there are so
[63:21] few people there, right? And their
[63:27] society has been developing for so many
[63:29] years under this Nordic high-welfare
[63:31] model, but I'm sure it has its own
[63:32] problems, like higher suicide rates and
[63:34] such, right?
[63:38] Indeed, because they aren't as close
[63:40] with their families—or rather, not as
[63:42] tight-knit—they do feel that if they
[63:44] have a problem, they should go to the
[63:45] government, as I mentioned. I wouldn't
[63:48] —I wouldn't turn to family or friends
[63:50] for help. I think it's very different
[63:53] from the situation in China, with its
[63:55] massive population, and the way we
[63:56] handle elderly care here.
[63:58] Regardless of your circumstances,
[64:01] currently 90%of the elderly live at
[64:03] home. Mmhmm.
[64:05] You could try to sell them on the idea
[64:06] that everywhere else in the world, the
[64:08] government takes care of everything.
[64:10] But let me tell you, it's impossible.
[64:12] It's just too deeply tied to culture,
[64:14] history, and national circumstances. My
[64:17] own experience with retirement planning
[64:19] makes me realize that for a very long
[64:21] time to come, the vast majority of our
[64:23] elderly will likely still be cared for
[64:25] at home.
[64:27] Mm.
[64:28] Actually, Hong Kong is like Finland in
[64:30] this regard. Really?
[64:31] Yes, if you don't have money in Hong
[64:33] Kong, the government provides you with
[64:35] aid. It’s just that housing in Hong
[64:38] Kong is so tight that the amount they
[64:40] give you for living expenses isn't as
[64:42] generous or as comfortable as in
[64:43] Finland, which is nearly ten thousand.
[64:48] Many people do the math; for some
[64:50] poorer families, having all four
[64:51] members collect aid is better than
[64:53] going out to work. Mm, that happens in
[64:57] Finland too, right?
[64:59] Yes, but I truly believe this is a
[65:01] change unlike any we've seen in
[65:03] thousands of years. The world is
[65:05] changing, and that includes the West.
[65:08] I've been looking at some figures
[65:10] recently. I’m very skeptical of these
[65:13] figures.
[65:13] I’m even questioning if these numbers
[65:15] are real, yet they seem to come from a
[65:17] very authoritative source.
[65:18] Mm. Can you imagine? The International
[65:21] Labour Organization released the 2020
[65:23] Global Employment Trends for Youth
[65:25] report—it’s probably even worse now
[65:27] —stating that out of 1.3 billion
[65:29] young people globally...How many are
[65:31] not working? 267 million.
[65:34] That’s a huge number.
[65:37] 267 million are relying on their
[65:39] parents for care and financial support.
[65:45] And then, a 2023 survey in the US
[65:47] targeting Gen Z shows...Do you know
[65:49] what Gen Z means?
[65:52] Born between 1995 and 2010. See, Mom
[65:55] knows, right? 65%of Gen Z and 74%of
[65:58] those born after 2000 believe their
[66:00] financial progress is far behind that
[66:03] of their parents 'generation. Mm.
[66:06] Do you understand? It means that while
[66:09] we used to think children were lazy and
[66:11] unwilling to endure hardship, now you
[66:13] see many young people in Shenzhen
[66:14] saying," You are the generation that
[66:16] enjoyed the dividends of economic
[66:17] growth. We young people today sometimes
[66:21] work harder than our parents and for
[66:23] longer hours, but we just can't earn as
[66:25] much money. "In other words, you see,
[66:27] this is a global issue. They believe
[66:29] their financial progress lags far
[66:31] behind their parents, and the
[66:32] percentage of them living with their
[66:34] parents is also significantly higher
[66:36] than in the past. Right, data from a
[66:38] Peking University survey on Chinese
[66:40] families shows the proportion of our
[66:42] working-age population" relying on
[66:43] their parents. "I...I can't believe
[66:46] this number. It says this rate of"
[66:49] relying on parents "rose from less than
[66:52] 2%in 2010 to over 40%in 2018.
[66:56] 40%. I think there might be an issue
[66:59] with their definition of" relying on
[67:01] parents. "Tell me, Professor Zidong, do
[67:03] you give your daughter money now?
[67:04] Jiahui, do you give your daughter money
[67:06] ?
[67:07] I didn't give my daughter money, but I
[67:09] remember a line from a movie, said by a
[67:11] daughter." You should cherish the fact
[67:14] that we still ask you for money. "
[67:15] Exactly, exactly.
[67:17] If my daughter actually asked me for
[67:19] money, I should cherish that
[67:20] opportunity, right?
[67:22] This would have been unthinkable when
[67:24] we were young.
[67:25] I mean, just graduating from college.
[67:27] When we were in college, it was already
[67:29] very hard for our parents to support us
[67:30] .
[67:31] What is the reason? Do you know? For
[67:33] the vast majority of Chinese families,
[67:35] the source of wealth is real estate.
[67:38] And as for houses, only the parents'
[67:40] generation—those now in their 40s or
[67:42] 50 s—acquired homes during this
[67:44] transition period. But for young people
[67:47] today, those under 30, it is extremely
[67:49] difficult to buy a house relying solely
[67:51] on their own income. Therefore, once
[67:54] real estate becomes the primary family
[67:56] asset, the children's generation cannot
[67:58] surpass their parents.
[67:59] Right, right, that's true.
[68:01] You can't surpass your parents, no
[68:02] matter how hard you work.
[68:04] Even if your salary is high, you might
[68:06] not necessarily surpass your parents,
[68:08] so that's where this 40%comes in. But
[68:12] the bigger, more worrisome situation is
[68:14] this: I recently had a friend from
[68:16] France visit. He is the only Asian, or
[68:21] rather ethnic Chinese, executive in a
[68:24] European university. I asked him when
[68:29] European youth started feeling that
[68:30] tomorrow won't be better. He said after
[68:35] the 90s.
[68:36] Hmm.
[68:40] He said that since the 90s, young
[68:42] people in Europe don't wonder if the
[68:43] world will be better in 20 years; they
[68:45] think," I won't be able to live like my
[68:47] parents. ""
[68:52] I can't have a house like theirs. "They
[68:55] aren't wealthy people, you know.
[68:58] They aren't business people; they
[68:59] likely worked in a profession after
[69:01] college. By the time they reached their
[69:05] 50s or 60s, they generally had two
[69:06] homes: one in the city and one in the
[69:09] suburbs, and so on. But young people in
[69:14] their 20s and 30s today feel they won't
[69:15] reach that point by old age, and they
[69:17] don't have the luxury of handing one of
[69:19] those houses down to their two children
[69:21] . Just think about it, how could you
[69:26] possibly live better than your parents?
[69:30] But think about it, how can your
[69:32] children in the future expect to live
[69:33] like you do? This is a global issue, it
[69:37] is a—
[69:39] Let me ask you, look at our kids—no,
[69:42] no, yours and Tieren's. I mean, look at
[69:46] your kids, they're so cute, seven and
[69:48] five years old.
[69:50] Of course, let's not talk about the
[69:52] conditions in Northern Europe; let's
[69:53] say we're talking about China. Then—
[69:56] People see that Tieren has a good job,
[69:58] earns a good living, and you have
[70:00] property and savings. When this child
[70:03] grows up in the future. The money he
[70:05] earns only allows him to live a, say,
[70:07] relatively ordinary life. Then, for
[70:09] example, he wants to pursue his ideals
[70:12] further, continue his education, or
[70:13] even just drift for a few years. Even
[70:16] if he reaches the age of 30. But can
[70:18] you guys actually afford to support him
[70:20] ?
[70:21] Support, as parents.
[70:23] Just now, Teacher Zong said, I might
[70:25] not necessarily leave a house for my
[70:27] son, right? I have also discussed with
[70:29] Tie Ren that we might not be able to do
[70:31] what our parents did, like," Oh, here's
[70:33] a house for you. "But, I want to give
[70:35] him the opportunity to choose. What I
[70:38] mean is, if he says today that he wants
[70:40] a house, I might not be able to provide
[70:41] it, but if you tell me that money is a
[70:43] bit tight and you want to study abroad,
[70:45] or you want to drift for a few years,
[70:47] as long as you're not at home, I hope
[70:49] the effort I'm making now can give you
[70:51] the opportunity to choose; logically,
[70:52] you should create this opportunity
[70:54] yourself.
[70:58] Right, you should support yourself or
[71:00] something, but I think, as I said,
[71:01] it’s very reasonable for you to build
[71:03] upon your original foundation, but if
[71:05] you say you want to rely on it
[71:06] completely, then I don't think that's
[71:08] okay. Like, if he says he wants to come
[71:12] back to take care of me, I don't want
[71:13] that. After I had a child, I studied
[71:15] psychology.
[71:16] Having a child and studying psychology,
[71:18] something went wrong, having a child.
[71:20] Because you know, I’m terrified that
[71:22] one day—because parents are like this
[71:24] , right? This love is so deep, but have
[71:27] you ever thought that giving so much
[71:28] love is, in the end, to let them go,
[71:30] right? And he’d better not even look
[71:33] back. Just like a bird spreading its
[71:34] wings to fly high, right? Just leave us
[71:36] behind. Yes, not looking back and not
[71:39] lingering—that is successful
[71:41] parenting, right? So you have to be
[71:44] willing to let go. I don't want to use
[71:48] my tears, or my future emotional
[71:49] instability, to make him feel guilty,
[71:51] thinking," I shouldn't have left, I
[71:53] shouldn't have flown away, I shouldn't
[71:55] have gone so far, I should keep coming
[71:57] home to check on them. "No, my feeling
[72:00] is, I need to be independent myself,
[72:02] and then, let you fly away comfortably.
