日本旅游是天堂，定居是地狱！梁文道这句话，点醒了多少人！#日本 #移民 #圆桌派 #梁文道 #经济 #认知

梁文道：日本旅游是天堂，定居是地狱 节目围绕日本文化的底层逻辑、创业困境与逆商，以及定居与旅日的现实隔阂展开了深度交锋。前段借丸山真男与伊藤博文立宪的学术视角，剖析了日本思想史上“缺乏内生主轴”、机制责任蒸发与“一亿总忏悔”的特质；中段借李小牧在新宿歌舞伎町的搏杀与青年创业者茅侃侃的陨落，探讨了老北京“面子”文化、湖南人“霸得蛮”的韧劲与逆商的真正底线；后段则从千利休草庵茶室、谷崎润一郎《阴翳礼赞》与严格垃圾分类入手，揭示出日本精致整洁表象之下的“他律”压抑、物我合一的职业信仰以及融入当地社会所面临的“暧昧”高墙。 丸山真男指出日本缺乏内生思想传统基轴，外来思潮多被作为实用零件拼装，导致战前战后通过“禀议制”与“一亿总忏悔”使具体政治责任彻底蒸发。 (2:07) 通过对比李小牧在歌舞伎町的务实妥协与创业者茅侃侃因大院“面子文化”死撑而自杀的悲剧，嘉宾提出真正的逆商（AQ）不仅是硬扛，更在于划定底线、适度退让与认清自身局限。 (45:06) 日本社会的整洁神话始于1964年东京奥运会前的政府动员，其高度文明礼貌本质上源于严密的社区邻里“他律”与同侪压力，而非单纯自觉的自律。 (74:59) “旅游是天堂，定居是地狱”的根源在于日本社会的双重性：表面优雅精致，深层则是“建前”与“本音”的严重脱节、不可逾越的“暧昧”高墙以及严苛的身体交往边界。 (93:23)

节目围绕日本思想史、社会控制机制及其对个体心理的影响展开，援引思想家丸山真男的理论指出日本缺乏内生的思想传统结构，进而形成实用主义至上、责任主体消解与严苛的他律秩序；对谈结合旅日经历与抗挫力案例，阐明了在看似洁净优雅的社会表面下，外来者难以突破的“暧昧”高墙与个体在尊严与生存之间的博弈。 缺乏基轴的思想传统与责任的消解 (2:07) 战后日本从狂热军国主义极速倒向民主和平，以及明治维新时期通过天皇旨意推翻千年禁忌普及食肉文化，体现出惊人的转向速度。节目引用政治思想家丸山真男在《日本的思想》中的论断，指出日本是一个“缺乏思想传统结构”的国家。与中国儒学拥有从孔孟、董仲舒到宋明理学这样连续递进的基轴坐标系不同，日本将儒学、佛教及西方近代观念均视作外来客体，以“最新即最优”的进化论视角像拼装机械零件般成套引入，导致相互矛盾的思潮能在同一空间相安无事，却从未形成具有自省与碰撞能力的本土思想地基。 这种缺乏超越性核心的实用主义带来了深刻的伦理后果。丸山真男批评战后日本政府提出的“一亿总忏悔”口号如同章鱼喷墨，通过将罪责均摊给全员来达到无人受罚、无人负责的目的。追溯其制度根源，明治宪法虽将万世一系的天皇确立为主权核心，但作为其精神底座的神道教缺乏严密教义，宛如一张任由现实政治涂抹的“空白卷轴”。在权力运作中，通过官僚自下而上呈报的“禀议制”与基层村落共同体的紧密互监，国家意志既被表述为神圣天意又被包装为全民共识，导致重大决策的实际制定者隐形，体制内的具体责任彻底瓦解。 “他律”支撑的社会秩序与欲望排泄机制 (74:59) 外界常赞叹日本街道的洁净与民众的守序，但嘉宾指出这种秩序实则是强烈的“他律”产物。日本精细的垃圾分类与严苛的环境卫生并非自古皆然，而是始于1963年为筹备1964年东京奥运会而发起的自上而下的整治运动；日常生活中则依赖社区邻里（如街区妇女）的高度监视网络来维持执行，一旦违规便会遭遇孤立与压力。 这种对违规和出格的恐惧催生出极度格式化的仪式感。从千利休草庵茶室必须屈膝俯身爬入的“躙口”、神社前通过沙沙声提醒跨越凡俗的碎石参道，到备前烧大师采海藻与陶土对话的专注，日本文化通过严密规矩唤起个体的敬畏。然而嘉宾指出，这种仪式化也导致了“建前（表面客套）”与“本音（内心真实）”的深度脱节。在严密压抑的社会规范之下，无法公开展露的隐秘欲望被迫转向文学（如九鬼周造的美学剖析、太宰治的自毁与殉情书写）与特色亚文化，构成了发达但封闭的“欲望排污渠”。 “暧昧”屏障与难以融入的交往边界 (93:23) 谈及跨文化生活体验，嘉宾们指出短期旅游的便利舒适往往无法转化为定居时的归属感，核心阻碍在于日本社会的“暧昧”特性。在实际交往中，外人极难辨识日本人的真实底牌，无论表面维持多么得体的礼貌，彼此间始终横亘着一层无法跨越的心理安全距离，外来者几乎无法真正进入其核心社交圈；当面对制度纠纷（如华人子女在校遭遇欺凌）时，校方与官方机构往往采取暧昧推诿的姿态，难以建立有效的直接沟通。 文化习俗上的深层差异进一步加剧了隔阂。以校园人际交往为例，中国儿童习惯通过肢体接触、拥抱或挽手表达亲密，而日本社会自幼培养严格的身体边界感，在公共空间极力回避肢体接触，非冲突状态下的触碰极为罕见。这种对个人空间与交往规则的认知错位，极易在日常生活中演变为误解与摩擦，构成了旅居者难以逾越的无形高墙。 逆商的文化对照：生存韧性与尊严包袱 (40:08) 从社会适应延伸到个体的逆境商数（AQ），嘉宾们对比了不同的生存策略。李小牧回忆在东京歌舞伎町面对黑帮绑架与地盘争夺的生存经历，表明在严酷环境下活下去需要打破虚荣包袱，通过划分底线、出让部分利益实现务实妥协；窦文涛则引述鲁迅“破帽遮颜过闹市，躲进小楼成一统”的隐喻，指出普通人在面对外界压力时，保有适度的钝感力与自我防卫的退守空间至关重要。 与之形成鲜明对照的是青年创业者茅侃侃自杀的悲剧。嘉宾分析其性格带有典型的老北京大院“爷”的心理特征，奉行“及时雨”式扶危济困的面子文化与道义担当，在企业破产边缘仍强撑乐观、私自将公司法定代表人变更至自己名下以求一人承担债务。这种“宁可天下人负我，休叫我负天下人”的角色执念，使其在面临巨额债务与心理抑郁时无法放下身段向外界示弱或求助，最终在社会角色的道德重压下走向了极端绝路。 本期节目通过思想史与现实经历的双重审视揭示出，日本社会的精密运转依赖于深层的他律监控、模糊的权责结构与严格的心理边界。旅游体验中的整洁宜人与定居生活中的压抑疏离，本质上是同一种社会文化机理的两面；而在高压环境下，能否解构外部赋予的尊严枷锁并保持务实的生存韧性，构成了衡量个体抗挫力的关键命题。

[0:01] We have talked a lot about Japan before [0:04] . After the war, the entire nation and [0:07] the intellectuals, who originally [0:09] embraced ideologies with great passion, [0:12] quickly shifted to fully advocating for [0:14] democracy and peace. This transition [0:17] was so rapid that it shocked the [0:19] occupying American authorities and the [0:21] entire world; only the Japanese [0:23] themselves were not shocked. Why is [0:25] that? When you look at it, you can [0:27] realize from this that Japan has [0:29] actually always been this way. They [0:31] have their own set of ways and [0:33] traditions, but once they decide to [0:35] abandon them to embrace something new, [0:37] they do it faster than anyone else, [0:39] like the Meiji Restoration, which we [0:41] often compare to our late Qing [0:43] dynasty's Self-Strengthening Movement. [0:45] Once the Meiji Restoration began, the [0:47] whole country rapidly Westernized. Many [0:50] old Japanese shops founded during the [0:52] Meiji era, whether selling meat or [0:55] canned goods, liked to call themselves [0:57] "Civilization Stores" or "Restoration [0:59] Stores," indicating that everything [1:02] they sold was a new product. Let’s [1:04] use an example to make it clearer, for [1:06] instance, beef. Today, people say [1:09] Japanese Wagyu is amazing, right? Wagyu [1:11] is so impressive and world-renowned, [1:13] but you must know that before the Meiji [1:16] Restoration, ordinary Japanese people [1:18] did not eat meat, including beef. The [1:20] meat they originally ate was fish, and [1:23] at most some chicken; all other meats [1:25] like beef, pork, and mutton were called [1:28] "wild meat," and what was this wild [1:30] meat for? It was only eaten when [1:32] someone was ill; under normal [1:34] circumstances, they felt it was vulgar [1:36] and barbaric to eat these things. But [1:39] then came the Meiji Restoration. The [1:41] Emperor said that from now on, everyone [1:43] should eat plenty of meat and enjoy it. [1:45] Why? Because Westerners eat meat. [1:48] Westerners eat meat; look at how strong [1:50] and energetic they are! We Japanese [1:52] must do the same from now on. From that [1:55] moment on, Japan began to desperately [1:57] study how to eat and raise cattle, [1:59] eventually developing Wagyu. This is [2:02] why Japan is able to accept and embrace [2:04] new things so quickly. This is a [2:07] mystery, but what is the other side of [2:10] this mystery? It is why the Japanese [2:12] often give people the impression that [2:14] they are very traditional and [2:16] conservative. Today we say the Japanese [2:18] seem to have preserved their [2:20] traditional culture exceptionally well, [2:22] even better than we have in China, and [2:25] yet, whenever something new emerges or [2:27] they face an emergency, they [2:29] immediately revert to their old ways. [2:31] For example, before Japan turned toward [2:34] militarism, there were many [2:36] intellectuals. They might have [2:38] originally believed in democracy, [2:41] freedom, or Marxism. But once the war [2:43] was about to break out, they [2:45] immediately remembered, "Oh, Japan has [2:47] always had an Emperor, and whatever the [2:49] Emperor says is final." In an instant, [2:51] they reverted to that past state. The [2:54] book we are introducing today, " [2:56] Japanese Ideology," written by Masao [2:58] Maruyama, says this is like what? It's [3:01] like when a person encounters a state [3:03] of great terror or sudden shock, and [3:06] they suddenly blurt out a long-unused [3:09] dialect from the past. Why does this [3:13] happen? This is one of the themes we [3:16] will explore in today's book. Maruyama [3:19] was one of the most influential and [3:21] prominent political thinkers in 20 [3:23] th-century Japan, and also one of the [3:26] most important thinkers in all of Asia [3:28] with an international standing. He was [3:30] born in the 20th century, and during [3:33] World War II, he managed to maintain [3:35] his intellectual integrity in a rare [3:37] and remarkable way, refusing to follow [3:39] militarism. However, at that time, all [3:42] men of a certain age had to be drafted [3:45] into the military, so he was also [3:47] conscripted. But he had been in the [3:51] army for less than a month when the war [3:53] ended, fortunately for him. Afterward, [3:56] he quickly threw himself into the study [3:59] of Japanese thought, starting to wonder [4:01] what had happened over these past [4:03] decades and what had gone wrong in our [4:05] country. Then, from within that, he saw [4:08] Japan as it was back then. Do you [4:10] remember in other episodes we discussed [4:13] how Japanese intellectuals could make [4:15] such a turn? How could people who [4:17] originally had their own ideas and [4:20] political stances suddenly embrace an [4:22] ideology completely? But after the war, [4:25] Maruyama witnessed everyone suddenly [4:27] returning to their old ways, as if [4:29] nothing had happened for decades. What [4:32] was really going on? In his book " [4:35] Japanese Ideology," Masao Maruyama [4:37] brings up a very important point. He [4:39] says that Japan is a country without a [4:41] structural tradition of thought. Sounds [4:44] hard to understand, right? In fact, [4:46] although this book was originally a [4:49] record of a lecture, it is a very, very [4:52] short essay. Don't be fooled by how [4:54] thin this book is; the text itself is [4:56] even thinner. Yet, this text is often [4:59] featured in entrance exams for many [5:01] Japanese universities, highly regarded [5:03] by everyone. It was once a bestseller, [5:05] but it is actually exceptionally [5:07] difficult to read—likely one of the [5:10] most obscure little books we've covered [5:12] since starting this show. In it, he [5:14] discusses what it means for Japan to [5:16] lack its own intellectual tradition or [5:19] structure. He uses China as a point of [5:21] comparison, for instance, noting that [5:23] we have our Confucian tradition. This [5:25] Confucian tradition keeps evolving, [5:27] doesn't it? You have Confucius and [5:29] Mencius from the pre-Qin era. Then [5:31] comes Dong Zhongshu in the Han Dynasty. [5:33] Later, in the Tang Dynasty and the [5:36] Middle Ages, it takes on a new look; by [5:38] the Song Dynasty, there is [5:40] Neo-Confucianism, and by the [5:41] mid-to-late Ming, the "Learning of the [5:44] Mind" emerges, only to return to Han [5:46] studies in the Qing. Throughout this [5:48] entire process, there is a consistent [5:51] tradition that persists, and within [5:53] this tradition, you can recognize it [5:55] serves as a point of reference. We can [5:57] call this "tradition," and something [5:59] new that emerges as "anti-tradition." [6:01] This anti-tradition is interesting [6:03] precisely because it must differ from [6:05] the tradition, while the tradition [6:07] itself also has its own framework. [6:09] Under these circumstances, a nation's [6:11] thought is considered to have a [6:13] direction and a traditional structure, [6:16] but what about Japan? What does he say [6:18] is Japan's tradition? His answer is: [6:21] none. How can there be none? Doesn't [6:24] Japan also have the influence of [6:26] Confucianism and Buddhism? Yes, but [6:27] those are foreign ideas, and even if [6:29] they formed a tradition, they never [6:31] functioned as the kind of tradition our [6:33] Confucianism does in China. Therefore, [6:36] anything new comes in very easily and [6:39] immediately, but why? Because unlike [6:42] China, whenever a new foreign idea [6:45] arrives, we first struggle with it [6:47] because we aren't used to it; we have [6:50] our tradition, and we need time for [6:52] conflict and digestion. But Japan lacks [6:56] this. Without this, what kind of [6:59] situation occurs? After the Meiji [7:02] Restoration? Their insatiable curiosity [7:06] for knowledge and the speed of their [7:08] mental shifting are truly world-class, [7:10] which is a key factor in Japan’s [7:13] rapid modernization. Due to the [7:17] tradition of absorbing foreign cultures [7:19] , within the modern intellectual class, [7:21] their sense for the unknown seems to [7:24] have been completely lost in terms of [7:26] thought. At first, curiosity is [7:28] displayed, but then they immediately [7:31] say, "Oh, it's not that, is it?" [7:33] Hypersensitivity and dullness are [7:36] combined in such an illogical way. For [7:39] example, in intellectual circles in [7:42] Europe or the U.S., fundamental [7:44] concepts of democracy and its [7:46] foundations, which have centuries of [7:48] history, are still repeatedly [7:50] questioned and explored directly. But [7:54] in Japan, just a few years after the [7:56] war, they perfunctorily claimed that [7:59] democracy was already fully understood; [8:02] the stark contrast between these two [8:04] situations is truly astonishing. As we [8:08] have just read, because Japan lacks a [8:11] very self-aware, highly systematic [8:13] intellectual tradition. Therefore, they [8:18] accept new things very easily without [8:20] resistance, and these new things also [8:23] arrive casually, brought in as sets [8:25] like parts; meanwhile, their own past [8:28] things are also brought out and [8:30] recalled like parts. Thus, they can [8:35] coexist perfectly in the same space [8:37] without any concern for sequence on a [8:40] timeline; this is why, at the start of [8:42] the Meiji Restoration, Japan suddenly [8:45] imported all the various intellectual [8:47] traditions that Europe had developed [8:49] over hundreds of years. There was no [8:54] difficulty or hurdle in importing them, [8:57] and for every intellectual tradition, [8:59] school of thought, or theory, there [9:01] were experts to study it; but that does [9:04] not mean they considered everything [9:06] equal. How did they rank them? For [9:10] instance, after they accepted [9:11] evolutionary theory, they used a set of [9:13] evolutionary criteria to evaluate [9:15] various intellectual traditions— [9:17] specifically, which of the imported [9:19] traditions were superior. Take an [9:21] example. At first, many people would [9:23] advocate: Why is our Japan falling [9:25] behind? It's because in the past, we [9:27] never talked about human rights. So, if [9:28] we are to talk about human rights, how [9:30] should we go about it? Let's learn from [9:32] the West; there have been many human [9:34] rights ideas since the Enlightenment— [9:36] how should we go about introducing them [9:38] ? We must advocate for this. But soon, [9:40] others would say that is wrong. Talking [9:43] about human rights is outdated in [9:44] Europe; everyone there is now talking [9:46] about imperialism, and imperialism is [9:48] clearly more advanced. They do not [9:50] judge whether human rights or [9:52] liberalism are good or bad from within [9:54] the theory itself. They look entirely [9:56] at whether, in terms of time, it has [9:59] passed; for example, why must the [10:01] newest thing necessarily be the best? [10:03] It is not judged on whether it is [10:05] logically good, nor whether it is [10:07] suitable for Japan, but entirely on the [10:10] idea that newer must be better. And [10:12] since Japan's intellectual circles [10:14] accepted this line of thinking, it was [10:16] very easy to reach a political [10:17] conclusion. What is this conclusion? As [10:20] we know, Meiji-era Japan advocated " [10:22] leaving Asia and entering Europe." Asia [10:24] is failing; it is bullied and stagnant. [10:26] Europe is advanced, so we must learn [10:28] from Europe and break away from Asia. [10:30] Although this island nation has nowhere [10:32] to go, we must make our entire country [10:35] a Europe within Asia and join the ranks [10:37] of European imperialism. Later on, they [10:39] gradually realized that the West was [10:42] not just more advanced; after becoming [10:45] advanced, they inevitably had to take [10:47] the next step and "go out." So, Japan [10:50] must now do the same, or else we will [10:53] be left behind. If you ask, was there [10:55] an internal logical judgment that made [10:57] this step inevitable? Is being a [10:59] colonial empire a good thing? They [11:02] didn't care about that. What did they [11:04] care about? They cared about the fact [11:06] that this is something more advanced [11:08] and newer. Just as organisms evolve, [11:10] ideas and doctrines evolve as well. [11:13] Coming back to this, we can see a [11:15] hidden consciousness within it. What is [11:17] that consciousness? It’s not just [11:20] that the new is better than the old; [11:22] they also feel the new is more [11:23] practical. This brings us to a very [11:25] important facet of Japanese thought: [11:28] being practical. On this point, [11:30] Maruyama Masao specifically highlighted [11:32] an example. We must realize that this [11:34] is a very small book containing many [11:37] ideas. It touches on much of [11:38] intellectual history, but each point is [11:41] brief. Because of the limited length, [11:43] each point actually triggers a lot of [11:45] reflection. For instance, he mentions a [11:47] very important thinker from the mid-Edo [11:49] period, during the Tokugawa shogunate, [11:51] named Motoori Norinaga. What is Motoori [11:54] Norinaga most famous for? It is his [11:56] criticism of Confucianism. We know the [11:58] Edo period, established by Tokugawa [12:00] Ieyasu, used Confucianism to govern the [12:02] country, yet Motoori Norinaga [12:03] criticized Confucianism. How did he [12:05] criticize Confucianism? He did not [12:07] criticize it from within its own theory [12:09] . Where did he say the problem with [12:11] Confucianism lay? Confucian claims [12:12] about the Emperor having a "Mandate of [12:14] Heaven" were all deceptive. It was [12:16] nothing more than a regime that, after [12:18] overthrowing an old dynasty, needed to [12:21] establish its own legitimacy and [12:23] deceive the common people by using the [12:25] "Mandate of Heaven." Maruyama Masao [12:27] believes this viewpoint is somewhat [12:30] similar to Marx. Marxist criticism [12:32] likes to trace all doctrines back to [12:35] their ideological origins. But here in [12:37] Japan, they had this perspective [12:39] because of reality—saying that the [12:42] Confucian system was just "useful." So, [12:44] China adopted it for use. And in Japan, [12:47] what was his argument? We should also [12:49] see if Confucianism is beneficial for [12:51] governing; if it is, we use it, if not, [12:53] then let's use Buddhism. Isn't Buddhism [12:55] useful? Switching to something else is [12:57] fine too. So it is always about how to [13:00] adapt to reality. This is a very [13:03] important aspect of Japanese thought. [13:06] The ideologies and ideas they pursue [13:08] depend on whether they meet practical [13:10] needs; whatever is most needed in [13:12] reality is surely the best, and [13:14] whatever aligns with the current [13:16] sentiments of the people and political [13:19] needs is surely the most applicable. [13:21] Under these circumstances, you can see [13:23] that this country's thought lacks a [13:25] tenacious or self-conscious tradition. [13:28] New things and old things can be mixed [13:30] together, so new things are easily [13:31] accepted, and old things are easily [13:33] discarded. So what determines whether [13:35] to use something or whether something [13:38] becomes popular? It is whether it meets [13:40] current needs. -ism. The Americans [13:46] defeated us because they talk about [13:48] democracy, so now that they are talking [13:50] to us about democracy, we should [13:51] quickly become democratic; this fits [13:53] current needs. There is no [13:55] sentimentality involved; this is [13:57] Japanese thought. We must know that in [14:00] the post-war era, the Japanese [14:02] government once put forward a slogan [14:04] that sounded beautiful and resonant, [14:07] called "the repentance of 100 million." [14:09] The "repentance" likely referred to the [14:11] 100 million Japanese citizens at the [14:13] time; it said all 100 million of us [14:15] must repent together for how we [14:17] committed such a historical error and [14:19] fought a war that shouldn't have been [14:21] fought. However, many people at the [14:23] time didn't buy into this "repentance [14:25] of 100 million." For instance, the [14:28] author of the book we are introducing [14:30] today, "Japanese Thought," Maruyama [14:32] Masao, described this "repentance of [14:34] 100 million" as what exactly? It's like [14:37] an octopus: when it encounters danger [14:39] or an enemy, it quickly squirts ink, [14:41] then takes advantage of the darkness in [14:43] the water to escape. Why did he [14:45] describe the "repentance of 100 million [14:48] " this way? It's because he felt the " [14:50] repentance of 100 million" was a [14:51] statement made superficially to appease [14:53] people, but in reality, it meant that [14:55] no one needed to repent and no one was [14:57] responsible. Since this responsibility [14:59] belonged to the whole nation, where did [15:01] the responsibility ultimately lie? Or [15:03] rather, you need to explain clearly, [15:05] why does the whole nation have this [15:07] responsibility? You must clarify this, [15:09] and then we can distinguish the [15:11] attribution of this responsibility [15:12] clearly. For example, the military [15:14] leaders at the time had their [15:15] responsibilities, the Emperor had the [15:17] Emperor's responsibilities, and the [15:18] common people had their own [15:19] responsibilities. The responsibilities [15:21] borne by individuals should be [15:22] different, but this kind of discussion [15:24] has never taken place, or at least it [15:26] has never happened in a systematic and [15:28] large-scale way. So, he traced it back [15:30] to a source. That source leads us to [15:33] the writing of the Japanese [15:34] Constitution. When discussing Japan’s [15:37] constitutionalism, their renowned [15:39] statesman, Hirobumi Ito—whom we [15:41] Chinese are all familiar with—once [15:43] made a brilliant remark. What did he [15:45] say? He said that now our Empire of [15:47] Japan is also to establish a [15:48] constitution, a Meiji Constitution. [15:50] This constitutionalism must have a [15:52] foundation. This foundation is a [15:54] spiritual one. For instance, in Western [15:57] countries like the UK, the constitution [15:59] has evolved since the Magna Carta. It [16:01] is the result of generations of [16:03] accumulation; it did not just appear [16:06] overnight. It incorporates the feudal [16:08] system of England at the time, [16:09] detailing how the various nobles and [16:11] the king divided power, negotiated, and [16:14] compromised. Their constitution was [16:16] written on this foundation. Even taking [16:18] the U.S. Constitution, which was [16:20] written from scratch, it still has an [16:23] ideological basis. That basis is the [16:25] idea of natural rights, and behind that [16:28] idea of natural rights lies an even [16:30] deeper tradition of Christian thought, [16:32] right? Now, the problem arises: we in [16:34] Japan are going to write a constitution [16:36] , but what does Japan have? He went [16:38] through the list: there is Confucianism [16:40] . But Confucianism, it seems, became [16:42] less effective after the fall of the [16:44] Tokugawa Shogunate. There is Buddhism, [16:47] but Buddhism, having been so prominent [16:49] in the Heian and Nara periods, seemed [16:51] to have declined by then and could not [16:53] serve as a foundation for the nation. [16:55] Searching high and low, he couldn't [16:57] find anything, until finally, he found [16:58] something. What was it? It was the [17:01] Emperor. The Emperor is unique among [17:03] all royal families in the world. We [17:05] know that the Japanese imperial family [17:07] has the longest history of any royal [17:09] house. Regardless of how the regime [17:11] changed—one shogun replacing another [17:12] —the Emperor remained the same. So he [17:14] said, "Our Emperor is of an unbroken [17:16] line for eternity; this is where the [17:18] Japanese national polity resides." We [17:20] have actually discussed this national [17:23] polity and its core in previous [17:25] episodes, so now let’s delve deeper [17:27] into it. This involves the fact that [17:29] the Emperor is not just a royal figure, [17:32] not just a symbol of the nation. If he [17:34] were to fulfill the role that Christian [17:36] civilization played in the U.S. or the [17:38] feudal spirit played in the U.K., he [17:40] would need a spiritual foundation, a [17:43] religious background. What was this [17:45] spiritual foundation and religious [17:46] background? He said it was, of course, [17:49] Shintoism. But then, Maruyama Masao [17:51] criticized this, asking: "What exactly [17:54] is Shintoism?" In fact, it was only [17:56] after the Meiji Restoration that Japan [17:58] began to emphasize that the Emperor was [18:01] a descendant of the Sun Goddess, [18:02] Amaterasu. He was gradually elevated as [18:05] if he were the supreme god, a living [18:07] deity—this was true for both the [18:09] Emperor Taisho and the Emperor Meiji. [18:12] But in reality, Shinto is a religion [18:14] that cannot even clearly define its own [18:17] nature. Theoretically speaking, Shinto [18:19] has 8 million deities; they claim there [18:22] are 8 million gods. If you travel in [18:24] Japan, you might see a tree in a forest [18:26] with a rope around it, which is called [18:28] a*kekkai*(barrier). If you bow to that [18:30] tree, then that tree is also considered [18:32] a god at that moment. There might be a [18:34] wave at the seaside, crashing against [18:36] the shore; you think, "Oh, what a [18:37] beautiful wave," and bow to it—that, [18:39] too, is a god. Anything can be a god; [18:41] everything is a Shinto god. Sometimes, [18:44] even when you worship these Shinto [18:46] deities, you realize you don't even [18:48] know what the object of your worship is [18:50] . It’s hard to say for sure; it has [18:52] long since vanished into the vastness [18:55] of time and space. Therefore, the [18:57] Shinto cultural tradition is often [18:59] described as a blank scroll—anything [19:01] you write on it is correct, and [19:03] anything you throw into it is accepted. [19:05] This extends to what we discussed in [19:07] the previous episode: the Japanese [19:09] intellectual tradition is one without [19:12] coordinates. Under these circumstances, [19:14] when you worship the Emperor and place [19:17] him upon such a foundation, it all [19:19] becomes a blur. If you adopt this as [19:21] the national polity and worship such a [19:23] country, then that country itself is [19:25] just as vague. Who exactly is in charge [19:28] of this country? If it were truly a [19:30] constitutional monarchy like in the UK, [19:32] the Emperor should not interfere in [19:33] anything. However, the constitution [19:35] stated quite clearly that national [19:36] sovereignty did not reside with the [19:38] people, but in the hands of the Emperor [19:39] . But in practice, was he truly the one [19:41] deciding everything? No, there was a [19:43] government and ministers beneath him. [19:45] How was the division of labor handled [19:46] between them? It was unclear. [19:48] Consequently, the final conclusion was [19:50] that the Emperor held ultimate [19:52] authority and decided everything, while [19:54] the ministers provided their input, [19:56] hoping for his approval—this was [19:58] known as the "deliberative system." [20:00] Under this structure, any decision made [20:02] by the government appeared to come from [20:04] the Emperor, though it might not have [20:06] been his at all. Meanwhile, the [20:08] political structure, step by step, [20:10] would claim it was the collective will [20:12] of the entire nation. When it comes to [20:14] a collective will—for instance, if [20:16] the public in our Chaoyang District [20:18] were of one mind in supporting a [20:20] national policy—if we translate this [20:22] into the Japanese context, the policy [20:24] is both decreed by the Emperor and [20:26] wanted by the common people. So, whose [20:29] policy is it, really? And so, a [20:32] situation of unclear accountability [20:34] emerged; let’s take a look at this [20:36] passage. He cites a professor who [20:40] taught in Japan in the 1920s. Emil [20:47] Lederer, who taught at the University [20:49] of Tokyo, recorded two events that [20:52] shocked him during his time in Japan in [20:54] his book*Japan in Transition*. One was [20:58] the incident in late 1923 where Daisuke [21:01] Namba shot at the Crown Prince, [21:03] commonly known as the Toranomon [21:06] Incident. What shocked him wasn't so [21:10] much the fanatic's actions, but what [21:13] followed. The cabinet resigned, and a [21:17] series of officials from the Police [21:19] Commissioner down to street officers [21:21] were dismissed, even though the author [21:24] emphasized they were in no position to [21:26] stop the crime. That wasn't all; the [21:30] culprit’s father was forced to resign [21:33] as a member of the House of [21:34] Representatives and was ostracized, [21:36] confined to his home. People in his [21:39] hometown even canceled New Year [21:40] celebrations and entered a period of [21:42] mourning. Even the principal and the [21:45] teachers of the elementary school the [21:47] culprit had attended resigned, simply [21:49] because they had once taught such a [21:51] criminal. This boundless way of [21:55] assuming responsibility, along with the [21:58] invisible social pressure that viewed [22:00] this as natural, appeared completely [22:02] bizarre to this German professor. As [22:07] the text we just read shows, he was [22:09] actually talking about a famous event [22:11] from that time called the "Toranomon [22:14] Incident." The Toranomon Incident [22:17] refers to a man who rushed at Hirohito, [22:20] who was the Crown Prince at the time, [22:22] attempting to cause chaos, sabotage, or [22:25] murder the future Emperor, but the [22:27] attempt failed. When it came to [22:31] assigning blame, the responsibility was [22:34] spread infinitely; everyone even [22:36] remotely connected had to be held [22:38] accountable. When everyone has to take [22:41] such responsibility, what does it [22:43] actually mean? It means that, in the [22:45] end, no one has to take responsibility, [22:47] or rather, that responsibility is very [22:49] unclear. How could such a situation [22:51] come to be? Beyond the ambiguity of the [22:54] "national polity" mentioned by Masao [22:56] Maruyama, I mentioned a key point [22:58] earlier—I wonder if anyone noticed— [23:00] which is that Japan...In its governance [23:02] , this country has an Emperor and a [23:04] central government, but what does it [23:07] rely on underneath? It relies on [23:09] countless village communities. These [23:11] so-called village communities mean that [23:13] every household acted as if there were [23:15] a natural neighborhood committee; [23:17] without the government needing to [23:19] organize them, the people in each [23:20] village would supervise one another. [23:22] This was originally a very typical [23:24] characteristic of pre-modern society: [23:26] if a stranger entered a village, the [23:28] whole village would know and keep an [23:29] eye on them. And within the village, if [23:31] any family had a minor scandal or [23:33] someone did something bad, the whole [23:35] village would know. At this point, [23:36] there is social pressure, and that [23:38] pressure keeps watch on you so you [23:40] can't go too far. But when your entire [23:42] country is under such a system—for [23:44] example, with an Emperor at the top— [23:46] and the country begins to turn into a [23:48] nationalist or even militarist state, [23:50] such a village community can become [23:52] terrifying. This leads to what we have [23:55] mentioned before: ordinary people in [23:57] their own neighborhoods or on their [23:59] streets wouldn't dare make a move. They [24:01] wouldn't dare say anything the state [24:03] disapproved of, or anything considered [24:05] harmful to the "national polity," [24:07] because otherwise you were opposing the [24:09] state, and opposing the state was [24:10] considered a supreme act of treason. [24:12] Now, speaking of this "national polity, [24:14] " we just said it is very vague. Since [24:17] it is so vague that no one can define [24:19] it, how can you even say what [24:20] constitutes opposing it? This is [24:22] interesting and quite simple. It [24:25] connects back to what we said in the [24:27] first episode about this book: Japanese [24:29] intellectual tradition has a tendency [24:31] to conform to reality. Whatever is [24:33] useful in reality is accepted. So, what [24:36] is the flip side of this way of [24:38] thinking and this attitude? It is that [24:40] we, the ordinary people, must silently [24:43] submit to whatever exists in reality. [24:45] Whatever is real is rational. If our [24:48] country today is militaristic, we must [24:50] take the state as our center; all our [24:52] religions must revolve around the state [24:55] , and people's lives must also revolve [24:57] around the state or the Emperor. At [24:59] such a time, everyone must listen to [25:01] the state. If it tells me to go fight [25:03] in China, I go to China; if it tells me [25:05] to conquer Korea, I go to Korea. Under [25:07] these circumstances, this is reality. [25:10] Therefore, as long as you go against [25:12] what is real, including its [25:14] institutions, you are in the wrong. [25:16] Following this point, Maruyama Masao [25:18] drew another conclusion. What is this [25:21] conclusion? He believed that Japan has [25:23] a tendency to deify its institutions. [25:26] That also sounds quite complex. You [25:28] have all read a bit of Marxism, right? [25:30] Do you know what "commodity fetishism" [25:33] is? It’s somewhat like that; it’s [25:35] turning the entire system into a cult [25:37] and worshipping it. What were human [25:40] institutions and thoughts originally? [25:42] They were things designed to adapt to [25:45] and summarize reality. For example, we [25:47] might invent a social theory, but this [25:50] theory cannot replace reality, nor can [25:53] it possibly cover reality or encompass [25:55] all the intricate details within it; so [25:58] what exactly is it? It is a bit like [26:00] taking a ruler to measure our reality; [26:02] there is always a gap between it and [26:05] reality, but through this gap, we are [26:07] actually able to gain some grasp of [26:09] reality. In other words, theories, or [26:12] concepts for that matter, are merely [26:15] tools we use to grasp reality; they are [26:17] not reality itself. Likewise, systems [26:20] are similar; different societies and [26:23] different cultures require different [26:25] systems, because these systems are [26:27] designed to adapt to reality. Systems [26:31] themselves are man-made; since they are [26:33] man-made, they should be changeable, [26:35] and indeed need to change, because [26:38] reality is always evolving and always [26:40] presenting us with new demands and new [26:43] challenges. Yet, Japan has a tendency [26:46] to treat existing systems as things [26:48] that everyone should accept [26:50] unconditionally. It is as if they have [26:53] forgotten that it is a man-made product [26:55] , assuming instead that it has existed [26:58] inherently like something created by a [27:00] god; and indeed, in the past when they [27:02] worshipped the Emperor, you could say [27:05] this system was truly god-made—why? [27:07] Because the nation’s fundamental law, [27:09] the Constitution, was promulgated in [27:10] the name of the Emperor, and what was [27:12] the Emperor? He was a god, so if the [27:14] fundamental constitution was [27:15] promulgated by a god, couldn't the [27:17] systems designed based on this [27:19] constitution be considered god-made? [27:21] Things created by a god should be [27:23] worshipped and accepted by everyone; [27:25] under such circumstances, how could one [27:27] possibly rebel, how could one reflect, [27:29] and how could one disagree with [27:31] everything the country was doing at the [27:34] time? Therefore, we can finally draw a [27:36] conclusion: in this short, essay-like [27:39] book on Japanese thought, Masao [27:41] Maruyama, a master of Japanese thought [27:43] of his generation, provides a [27:45] generalized overview of Japanese [27:48] intellectual history. But this [27:52] interpretation was actually proposed [27:54] against the backdrop of postwar Japan, [27:57] intended to answer—from the roots of [27:59] thought—why Japan arrived at where it [28:01] was today; and this answer is the most [28:04] profound, deepest, and most [28:05] thought-provoking answer that the [28:07] intellectuals of that generation in the [28:10] Japanese academic world could offer. [28:14] You can't keep dwelling on this. Like [28:16] me, I’ve been in Gukuding for so many [28:19] years, right? When I first arrived, I [28:20] was kidnapped by the Japanese, [28:22] kidnapped by my own countrymen, and [28:23] even targeted by Japanese thugs and [28:25] Chinese thugs who wanted to drive me [28:26] out of Gukuding. I've been through it [28:28] all, including being scolded when [28:30] running for office and being told to " [28:31] go back where you came from" by [28:33] Japanese right-wingers; you have to [28:34] endure these things. Including two [28:36] brushes with death, where cars hit me [28:38] and were totaled—the insurance paid [28:40] out, but I didn't die. Oh, the car was [28:42] a total loss, but you were completely [28:44] fine? [28:45] Not a scratch. [28:46] Was it your car or theirs? Right. [28:49] So I mean, after you’ve faced death, [28:51] these other things really become... [28:54] Six divorces? That’s nothing. As they [28:57] say, "Once you've seen the vast sea, [28:59] nothing else looks like water." Because [29:01] Japanese law is like that, but ours [29:03] were mutual agreements, so it was over [29:05] in a day. If you go to court, all your [29:07] assets and everything you have go to [29:09] her, and she’ll definitely get [29:10] custody of the kids. [29:12] Men in Japan can't afford to get [29:13] divorced, but for me, it was just like [29:15] a spiritual renunciation. That's true. [29:17] Oh, so the assets are gone? [29:19] Yeah, they're gone, all gone. [29:21] Time to start over from scratch, right? [29:23] Right, back to zero, starting from the [29:25] beginning. [29:25] Actually, that's how it is every time I [29:27] get divorced in Japan. Oh, Xiao Mu, I [29:29] should really look at you closely. This [29:31] is the first time I've done a show with [29:33] you at such close range. I knew a lot [29:35] about your past experiences, but [29:37] you’re the type of person who doesn't [29:39] seem to show any wear and tear from [29:41] disasters or hardships on your face. [29:44] His resilience must be off the charts. [29:47] Right? Back then, he went to Japan all [29:50] by himself, navigating a place where [29:52] the underworld and legitimate society [29:54] mix, and now he's actually running for [29:56] a seat in Japan. He was even kidnapped, [29:59] right? [29:59] Kidnapped twice, that's right. [30:01] Yeah. [30:02] And almost died both times. [30:04] I'll be honest, if I had gone through [30:07] what he did... [30:08] After experiences like that, my choice [30:10] would probably be to just leave that [30:12] place and get as far away as possible. [30:14] I wouldn't. When I was kidnapped. The [30:17] very next night, I was back there in a [30:19] suit and tie, standing my ground. You [30:21] want to chase me away? I'm not leaving. [30:24] In the end, they just thought, "This [30:26] guy is not someone to be messed with." [30:28] You see, he’s just remarkably [30:30] resilient. [30:31] Hey, Yijun, I’m not trying to jinx [30:33] you—your marriage is a wonderful [30:35] example of a successful East-West union [30:38] . [30:38] But if you were to encounter a [30:40] situation like Xiao Mu’s, especially [30:43] now that you have children...How do you [30:45] think you would handle it? [30:50] I think there are definitely more [30:52] painful days, but I don't believe that [30:55] marriage is something you're born with, [30:57] this relationship, so I don't think [31:00] it's that difficult to reorganize, so I [31:02] always feel this thing is like that [31:05] feeling of "spring arrives to grow a [31:07] few branches," it's just about. [31:11] Spring arrives to grow a few branches, [31:13] It's like they say, "spring colors [31:15] cannot be contained," you're still [31:17] insisting on going against the flow. [31:18] Aren't you quite sentimental? Aren't we [31:20] just making a theoretical assumption? [31:22] Assumption, just an assumption. [31:24] You had an episode about cheating, I [31:25] watched it. [31:26] Oh. [31:27] Do you know how I felt when I watched [31:30] it? [31:30] I was thinking, if everyone had the [31:32] same feeling as me, this original [31:35] production would be a success. And what [31:38] was my feeling? It was like, you tell [31:42] me, Teacher, it's like this and that. [31:46] No, no, actually I think that episode [31:49] of yours focused more on women cheating [31:52] . Actually, I feel that in our society, [31:55] it's harder for a woman to cheat than [31:57] for a man. [31:58] Mm. [31:59] Compared to men, the requirements are [32:01] higher and the cost is greater. The [32:05] punishment is harsher; what I mean is [32:08] that for the same act of cheating, a [32:10] man is more likely to be forgiven by a [32:13] woman, while for a woman, it's much [32:15] harder to save the relationship. [32:18] Mm. [32:19] This, this is the unfairness of this [32:22] world, this society, yet people don't [32:24] see this unfairness. [32:25] I agree, but I also want to tell you, [32:27] Professor Xu, that this situation is [32:29] changing. But there is a fundamental [32:33] difference between women cheating and [32:36] men cheating; of course, my observation [32:38] might be one-sided, correct me if I'm [32:40] wrong, a man doesn't need his affair [32:43] partner to be better than his current [32:45] wife. [32:50] No, men are just like that, you meet [32:52] someone, think carefully, she's neither [32:55] prettier than you, [32:57] Nor more talented than you, right? She [33:00] has nothing, but he still goes ahead [33:03] and cheats anyway, yes, yes. [33:05] But conversely, if a woman wants to [33:08] cheat, basically the affair partner has [33:11] to be, compared to her current man, [33:13] relatively better in at least one [33:16] aspect, right? Better than him. [33:19] Even if it's just better physically. [33:21] Yes, even if it's better health, looks, [33:24] finances, or temperament. [33:26] In short, she has to feel that way, [33:28] therefore, when a woman cheats, [33:30] It's a bit, how should I put it, as we [33:33] say in common parlance, [33:35] It means looking for the next option; [33:38] once a woman cheats, it's not just for [33:41] fun. This is, if they want to break up [33:44] with me, I have to be able to handle it [33:46] . So they will think about it in a [33:48] harder way; when a boyfriend thinks [33:50] this way, when a man cheats and comes [33:53] back to repent, he might shed tears [33:55] sincerely, he might genuinely feel that [33:57] nothing is as good as you, but it’s [34:00] just a lot of noise. Your question [34:02] looks like it's about personal habits [34:04] and attitudes, but it actually implies [34:07] a very deep unfairness: the punishment [34:09] for a woman cheating is extremely high. [34:12] Hmm. [34:13] The punishment mechanism is huge. For a [34:16] man, it's simple: when two people start [34:18] dating, if this man has had ten [34:20] girlfriends before, it’s not a [34:21] negative for him. As long as he doesn't [34:23] bring it up to show off, it's fine. Hmm [34:26] . [34:26] For the woman, even if he had those [34:28] past experiences and it wasn't great [34:30] because of that, if he says, "But now I [34:32] treat you the best," the woman will [34:33] forgive him, and she might even think [34:35] ... "Look how charming he is! He was [34:37] with others before, but now he's with [34:39] me." If you flip the game and look at [34:41] it the other way: even the best woman [34:43] comes to you and lists her exes—one, [34:45] two, three, four, five, six, seven, [34:47] eight—don't even count to ten. Hmm. [34:49] If you count to thirty, the man [34:50] wouldn't be able to handle it. [34:52] And that's not even getting into the [34:53] details. This is a very, very deep kind [34:56] of inequality. [34:57] But are we talking about cheating or [34:59] adversity quotient? Adversity quotient. [35:01] Weren't you saying that cheating has [35:03] become a major test of adversity? Then [35:05] tell me about other adversities, like [35:07] not being able to get rich. [35:08] What else is considered adversity? I... [35:11] There are still many adversities in [35:12] one's career. I have to bring up gender [35:14] inequality again: for men, it might be [35:16] in their careers—and this includes [35:18] politics, economics, and academia. [35:20] Hmm. [35:21] For women, generally speaking, the [35:22] greatest adversity is in relationships. [35:25] Can we agree on this? [35:26] Basically agree, basically agree. Let [35:29] me think...yes. The girls around me, [35:32] because of the society we live in now, [35:33] like the inequality you mentioned—but [35:36] there is another kind of equality, [35:37] where girls go out to work and compete. [35:39] Of course, there’s still a glass [35:41] ceiling, but in many cases, they can do [35:43] quite well, and that counts as equality [35:46] . But no matter how high you climb, if [35:48] there are problems in your personal [35:50] life, it just... [35:51] She feels like a failure, a total [35:53] failure, but men, relatively speaking [35:56] ... [35:56] For men, relatively speaking, if their [35:59] career, you know, drops to zero, [36:02] it's a huge disaster for them, yeah, [36:05] right? Not earning a single cent, or [36:08] even falling into debt—that's a [36:09] disaster. [36:10] Right? [36:11] It's just that women might experience [36:13] more self-negation in emotional areas, [36:15] while men's self-negation is more [36:17] career-focused. Don't think that just [36:19] because a woman has money, she'll feel [36:22] like she's won; she might still see it [36:24] as a failure. [36:25] At a certain age, I've heard that some [36:28] women, especially after hitting 50, if [36:30] they've done well, they just stop [36:32] caring about all that. I think they've [36:35] entered another stage where gender no [36:37] longer matters. [36:38] They can do everything a man can do. I [36:40] really meet some women now who I feel [36:43] have surpassed the mindset of most [36:45] women in our society; they are just [36:48] very strong. [36:49] Or, you could say, they've become [36:51] indifferent, they've moved past it. [36:53] Right, but I personally haven't [36:56] experienced any major adversity. I mean [36:58] , when I was young, I might have had [37:00] some difficulties because of where I [37:02] was, but they don't really count as [37:04] adversity. Because what is adversity? I [37:07] think it's standing on a cliff, [37:08] surrounded by darkness, not knowing if [37:10] there's a path ahead—the ladder might [37:12] be right below, but you can't see it; [37:13] it's that kind of hopelessness, not [37:15] knowing how to move forward. [37:16] Maybe it's your—the Japanese have a [37:18] term for this, "insensitivity." [37:20] Yeah. You're just insensitive, you [37:23] understand? Actually, sometimes people [37:26] think their desperation is objective. [37:29] But it's subjective, you know? Some [37:32] people might think, "Oh, if Teacher Xu [37:34] doesn't look happy today, I'm in [37:37] adversity." That's right, I'm in [37:39] adversity. Really? No, for instance, [37:43] last time I went to Japan, I heard [37:45] people say that some young Japanese [37:47] people just can't take it—they get [37:50] scolded by their section chief and [37:52] commit suicide. Right. [37:54] That's adversity. So, what do you call [37:58] that? [37:58] Oh, I see. [38:00] Hey, Teacher Xu, can you tell us what [38:02] kind of adversity you've had? Like, on [38:05] the verge of suicide? [38:07] We were just talking about that. [38:09] What kind of adversity is that? Isn't [38:12] that just a lack of resilience? What [38:14] you call his situation isn't adversity [38:16] quotient; it's just pure torment. [38:17] Exactly, he's just tormenting himself. [38:20] Everyone says [38:21] Look at how thin he is; his frame is [38:22] really fragile. [38:23] He can't even tell whether he's happy [38:25] or sad anymore. [38:26] You know? Yes. [38:28] I actually cried; I really, truly felt [38:30] sad, yes. [38:31] Because of the child. No, it's because [38:33] his mother gave an example. I was [38:36] sitting on the bed when she told me [38:38] this, and she said, "Do you know how [38:40] much your son loves you?" If he knows [38:42] you're coming home for dinner tonight, [38:44] he'd rather not eat any meat. He knows [38:47] I don't eat meat, only fish, so he'd [38:49] buy sashimi or a whole fish. She said, [38:52] "This is what your son does for you." [38:54] Also, she immediately gave another [38:56] example: last night you criticized him [38:57] for not brushing his teeth before bed, [38:59] because he'd already showered and was [39:01] in bed eating something. After he [39:03] finished, you told him, "Brush your [39:04] teeth after you eat," even though he [39:06] was already in bed. Because of my words [39:08] , he remembered; he opened the door and [39:10] came back out to brush his teeth. He [39:11] cares about you so much, you are his [39:13] role model, yet look at how things are [39:15] today. [39:15] See, when a mother divorces, she uses [39:17] the son as leverage. [39:18] Yes, it really hit me; since I was [39:20] wearing glasses, she might not have [39:21] seen, but tears really fell. Um, so for [39:23] you to say I never felt sad, that's [39:25] impossible; I certainly did. But you [39:27] still didn't think about trying to save [39:29] it. [39:29] But I was completely listening to her; [39:32] whatever she wanted to do, so I... [39:34] The premise for this is that he [39:36] seriously analyzed his own nature. [39:38] 20 minutes. [39:39] 20 minutes long. [39:41] The most responsible attitude for [39:42] someone like me is to get a divorce. [39:44] Right, you can only listen to her. [39:46] We haven't talked about your adversity, [39:48] Mr. Xu, do you have any? What do you [39:49] consider your own adversity? [39:51] That's hard to say; sometimes real [39:53] adversity is just impossible to talk [39:55] about. You just can't put it into words [39:57] . [39:57] For example, being attacked online. [39:59] Does that count? [40:01] That doesn't count. [40:02] That's just part of daily life. [40:04] What about family? [40:06] Let's not talk about the older [40:08] generation; they've likely been through [40:10] enough and are tough enough. I'd say [40:12] this concept of adversity quotient is [40:14] mostly about young people nowadays. For [40:17] instance, back in January of this year, [40:19] let me show you a photo; look at this [40:21] young man's photo, you remember it, [40:24] right? It became a hot topic for a [40:27] while, Mao Kan. [40:29] This Mao Kan, "work like you're falling [40:32] in love." It was just at this time, at [40:35] thirty-something, just past thirty, [40:37] that he chose to take his own life by [40:40] burning charcoal. Burning charcoal [40:43] means suicide, but why did his suicide [40:46] cause such a stir? Most people talk [40:48] about his entrepreneurship, back then [40:50] there were four post-80s generation [40:52] entrepreneurs. They were labeled by you [40:54] media people as the four rising stars [40:56] of entrepreneurship, representing the [40:58] hope of the post-80s generation, and [41:00] they even got famous on CCTV, you know? [41:02] But those people now, you could say, [41:04] have had pretty good entrepreneurial [41:06] success. Only he, with this thing he [41:09] was running, some esports game called [41:11] Wanjia Esports, eventually ran out of [41:13] money, yet he still optimistically [41:16] encouraged his staff to keep developing [41:18] the game, saying we can definitely make [41:21] it, we definitely can, right? Only [41:23] after he committed suicide did people [41:26] discover he had mortgaged his own car, [41:29] his house, and even his mother's house [41:32] just to pay his employees; in reality, [41:35] it had been failing for a long time. [41:39] And yet, this kid remained optimistic, [41:41] but in the end, he committed suicide by [41:44] burning charcoal, which is why his [41:46] close friends really hated the media [41:49] portraying him as a failure who [41:51] couldn't handle defeat. Later, people [41:55] realized that while he seemed [41:57] optimistic to everyone, he had actually [41:59] prepared long ago; he wanted to break [42:01] up with his girlfriend months earlier, [42:04] and she didn't understand why, but he [42:06] insisted on breaking up, and people [42:08] guessed he already knew back then that [42:11] his funds were essentially in debt. But [42:13] I always feel that no one was really [42:15] able to step into the depths of his [42:17] heart. In his final period, he seemed [42:19] to have everything arranged perfectly; [42:21] he spent all his time eating, drinking, [42:23] and singing with everyone, but nobody [42:24] knew he was actually saying goodbye, he [42:26] was very well prepared. And this method [42:28] of suicide, he bought five bags of [42:30] charcoal and sealed the doors and [42:31] windows of his home with weather [42:32] stripping and so on. So, I think he had [42:34] been planning this for a long time. [42:36] Sometimes we look at it simply, as if [42:38] it were just because of his business [42:40] troubles or something, but we haven't [42:42] actually experienced what was in the [42:43] depths of his heart. I always feel that [42:46] none of the reports have touched upon [42:48] what that thing really was. [42:49] For instance, there are a few things [42:52] for us to examine; for example, in the [42:54] book I just mentioned from his early [42:56] years, he actually wrote that he had [42:58] suffered from severe depression. Well, [43:01] that is clearly a factor, isn't it? But [43:04] I have found that the friends who loved [43:06] him do not want to think in that [43:08] direction. You know, it is quite [43:11] interesting; everyone had a very good [43:14] impression of him. He was a real [43:18] stand-up guy, always smiling and [43:20] laughing with his friends—in other [43:23] words, he always kept his dignity. What [43:26] do I mean by this kind of dignity? For [43:29] example, right before he committed [43:31] suicide, he urged a business partner to [43:33] change the legal representative of the [43:36] company to him. The partner asked, "Why [43:39] ? There are debts now. Does that mean [43:42] you are going to take on all these [43:43] debts?" He gave many reasons, but he [43:46] was absolutely insistent on doing it. [43:48] In reality, his intention was to help [43:50] his friend offload the burden. He [43:52] wanted to take it all on himself. [43:54] And this child—no, I can't call him a [43:57] child anymore, this young man in his [43:59] thirties—has always been this way. He [44:02] was a legendary figure in the startup [44:05] scene, always feeling that he couldn't [44:07] let his friends or employees down. That [44:09] is just the kind of person he was. Yes, [44:12] he even said himself that his [44:13] personality wasn't really suited for [44:15] starting a business. Why? He shouldered [44:18] too much responsibility himself, to the [44:20] point where—I am just guessing—he [44:22] might have felt that death was perhaps [44:24] the best way out. Because after that, [44:26] all these burdens of responsibility [44:28] would simply vanish for him. [44:30] So you encounter some trouble, and then [44:32] he goes and commits suicide. [44:33] Right, so looking at it from the other [44:34] side, we often ask: what is wrong with [44:36] today’s young people? They struggle [44:38] to cope and fall apart at the slightest [44:40] issue. But I actually think it is [44:42] because they have more choices. For [44:43] instance, if a boss scolds you, you [44:45] just quit—you don't put up with it. [44:48] That is because they have more options [44:50] and more ways to make a living. Even [44:52] their understanding of death is [44:53] different from ours; we used to think [44:55] it was a shameful or undignified thing, [44:58] but their interpretation is different [45:00] now. Of course, I am not encouraging it [45:02] ; I am just saying their perspective [45:04] cannot be measured by our old values. [45:06] Regarding this, I have read detailed [45:09] reports about him. I don't know [45:12] anything beyond those reports, but [45:14] based solely on what I have seen in [45:16] these accounts of his life, I have a [45:19] theory. Of course, my conjecture [45:22] shouldn't be taken as fact, but you [45:25] know it makes me associate—we can [45:27] only say we're associating, using this [45:30] topic to elaborate. This kid, although [45:33] he's a post-80s generation, he's a [45:35] child from a military compound, [45:37] specifically a Beijing military [45:39] compound. You know, this immediately [45:42] reminds me of Ma Weidu, Wang Shuo, and [45:44] that group—the children of those [45:47] military compounds. I'm friends with [45:50] many of them. One of them was chatting [45:53] with me a while ago, and I found it [45:55] quite funny. We were talking about men [45:59] from different regions—Shandong men, [46:02] Shanghai men, and so on—and finally, [46:05] we got to the Beijing men, the old [46:07] Beijingers. He said one thing: Beijing [46:10] men are "Ye." He said, look at who, [46:13] look at Ma Weidu, look at Ma. [46:15] Master, Master Ma. [46:17] What does this "Ye" actually mean? It [46:21] means rarely admitting that you can't [46:23] handle something. And then, it’s just [46:26] like this Ma Kan described in the [46:28] report. He is simply a "Rain-in-Time," [46:31] like Song Jiang from Shandong in the [46:33] old stories. When brothers are in [46:35] trouble. He shows up, and he conveys to [46:38] you—regardless of whether it's doable [46:40] or not—that he can always pull in [46:43] investments. "Don't worry, it'll work, [46:45] I've secured more funding, we'll go [46:48] public, it'll be great soon." He always [46:50] ...he never says it's not working, even [46:52] when everyone finds out later that it [46:54] had been failing for a long time, you [46:56] know? But not until the very last [46:59] moment. Until the parent company sent [47:01] representatives to tell his employees [47:04] to disperse, he still hadn't told [47:06] anyone, even selling his own house and [47:08] car to pay their wages. Prioritizing [47:11] face. [47:12] You know what I mean? It just makes me [47:14] think, could this be that specific type [47:16] of "Beijing Young Master," you [47:18] understand? "I only allow the world to [47:21] wrong me; I cannot wrong the world." So [47:24] I think his suicide is, to some extent, [47:26] a bit like what you said about the [47:28] Japanese, though the reasons are [47:30] different—that is to say. [47:31] Death resolves all debts. [47:34] It's just that these Beijing masters [47:36] are obsessed with face and dignity; [47:38] I’ll take care of everything. [47:40] Whatever problems arise, I'll shoulder [47:42] them. I'll never let you be troubled; [47:44] rest assured, I'll never let you carry [47:45] the burden. But in the end, when the [47:47] pressure becomes too much to bear. What [47:49] else is there to do? Owed so much debt, [47:51] right? What could he do? Just end it [47:54] all. [47:54] A legend in life, a myth in death. [47:59] First, you're right; this shouldn't be [48:01] encouraged, right? This is absolutely [48:04] wrong. Of course, it’s a tragedy, but [48:07] secondly, it brings to mind what Lu Xun [48:10] said after Lin Yutang passed away: [48:12] never mock those who commit suicide. [48:15] I think, looking at his final words [48:18] where he says he respects the ending, [48:20] to him, this ending feels a bit like [48:23] that old Feng Xiaogang movie—what was [48:26] it? Yes, the one about Beijing—that [48:29] final showdown seemed completely [48:31] pointless to me. [48:32] From the perspective of us Shanghainese [48:35] , why not just sit down and talk it out [48:37] ? Why risk your life fighting someone? [48:40] It’s not worth it at all, but to them [48:43] , it’s what had to be done. [48:45] The ritual in this ending. [48:47] I’ve met many of these "Beijing [48:49] gentlemen," and you’ll find it quite [48:52] interesting; even people like him, they [48:54] rarely admit to you that they can't go [48:57] on. You know? They always project that [49:00] they are capable. "I can," it’s a [49:03] very interesting psychological profile, [49:06] but he genuinely wants to help everyone [49:09] . His persona is that of a "gentleman." [49:16] Yes, for example, didn't the report [49:18] mention that if a girl returned to [49:20] Beijing from abroad wanting to get into [49:22] PR or advertising, he’d just be told [49:24] once, and even if he wasn't that close [49:27] to her, the very next day he’d host a [49:29] dinner and invite everyone in the [49:31] industry who could help her? You know, [49:36] there’s a certain kind of Beijing [49:38] gentleman. [49:39] That’s what they live for. [49:41] But from another angle, it’s about [49:43] loyalty. [49:44] The "Jianghu" spirit. [49:46] It’s that "I can help you" attitude. [49:48] As I read the report carefully, what [49:51] popped into my mind is that these types [49:53] of refined individuals are actually [49:55] very prideful—they care about their [49:58] image and their dignity. Even when you [50:02] see him asking others to invest or to [50:04] help fill the gaps in his payroll, he [50:07] never speaks in a way that’s beneath [50:09] his dignity. He wouldn’t say, "Oh, [50:13] please help me." He wouldn't. [50:15] This concept of "adversity quotient" is [50:18] interesting. Usually, we think that in [50:20] adversity, we should persist and [50:21] struggle, and look—he was actually [50:23] struggling the whole time, wasn't he? [50:25] Actually, adversity quotient might have [50:27] another layer, which is knowing when to [50:28] retreat. [50:29] Right. [50:30] That is a kind of wisdom in adversity. [50:32] Adversity quotient is about oneself. [50:34] Emotional and intellectual quotients [50:36] are for dealing with others, right? I [50:37] think AQ, this adversity quotient, is [50:39] about fighting with yourself. How to [50:41] handle yourself, once you're in a [50:43] situation, knowing when to cast aside [50:45] your pride. Just someone thick-skinned, [50:48] honestly, I am. I had no pride during [50:50] my three years in Japan, but I didn't [50:53] break any laws. I did it just to [50:55] survive, and didn't I make it out? And [50:59] the things I wrote were all [51:01] self-deprecating and self-mocking; I [51:03] think you need to be able to set aside [51:05] your pride to earn respect, because we [51:08] are all just ordinary, average people, [51:10] right? You'll definitely have times [51:13] when you don't do well, and when you [51:15] don't, you must admit your mistakes and [51:17] apologize bravely; I think caring too [51:20] much about pride is the issue. [51:21] Mm, too much. [51:23] I am a shameless person, I don't want [51:25] pride, and that's how I am today. So [51:28] you see, this Xiao Mu reminds me of a [51:30] saying from Hunan people, what is it? [51:33] Ba De Man. [51:34] Ba De Man. [51:35] Nai De Fan. [51:37] Nai De Fan, you see, he just sticks to [51:40] it to the very end, and even his [51:42] behavior is actually a bit... [51:44] Hunan people sometimes have this [51:46] quality, at least some of them. [51:47] Yu Cuo Yu Yong. [51:49] Lu Zhan. [51:51] You see, that's what you call adversity [51:54] quotient—the more you are in [51:56] adversity, the braver you become; Zeng [51:59] Guofan also talked about "Lu Zhan" back [52:01] then. [52:03] It’s really different; for some old [52:05] Beijing guys, you'll find—let me go [52:08] deeper—that they simply cannot be [52:11] humiliated, you know? They cannot be [52:14] disgraced, right? They actually want [52:16] that dignity. [52:18] It’s not the same; the old-timers are [52:20] different, they wouldn't want to live [52:21] on if it meant living like a dog, in [52:23] their eyes. [52:24] Right. But Xiao Mu, he definitely [52:27] wanted to survive back then; no matter [52:29] how badly he was beaten, he'd be back [52:31] the next day. I don't think Mao is in [52:34] that situation. [52:35] Is he? Your analysis just now makes a [52:38] lot of sense; he initially [52:39] overestimated his own capabilities. But [52:42] his intent to help others was truly out [52:44] of kindness. He didn't end up [52:46] abandoning them; he helped them deal [52:48] with many things, and then he lost his [52:49] own ability, so what could he do in the [52:51] end? I’ll just end it all and be done [52:53] with it. You know, this, this thing is [52:56] very interesting, I mean, at least [52:58] based on reports—I don't know the [53:00] person myself—I've observed a certain [53:03] type of person. For instance, we always [53:05] wonder what people are living for, [53:07] right? Sometimes people live for money, [53:10] or for fame, or for profit, or for [53:12] family; everyone has their own goals. [53:14] But the goal of one type of person is [53:17] quite interesting—what they live for. [53:19] Like, Xiao Mu, let me ask you, is there [53:22] such a type of person in this world? [53:25] Take a "gangland boss" for example. [53:28] When this gangland boss eventually dies [53:31] , you find out he was dirt poor. Yet he [53:34] lived for that "You don't have money? [53:37] Here, take it."" [53:38] You need my help? It's no problem, [53:40] absolutely not.""I'll help you, right?" [53:43] He lived for that image where [53:44] everywhere he goes he has dignity, and [53:46] he can handle anything—but in reality [53:48] , he has nothing at all. It's like this [53:51] Mao Kan, did he take the money? I don't [53:53] even know what he did it for. Like, he [53:56] once worked at some TV station, GT TV [53:59] or somewhere, and after doing a lot of [54:01] work for them, he found it didn't align [54:04] with what he wanted to do, so he [54:06] resigned. He could have easily asked [54:10] for millions based on his contributions [54:13] to that company. In the end, he just [54:15] took a few tens of thousands and left, [54:17] like it didn't matter, you know? His— [54:19] I just feel like there's a type of [54:21] person, what kind of tribe do they [54:23] belong to? I've thought about it and [54:25] realized I've seen this kind of "tough [54:27] on the outside, weak on the inside" [54:29] type in some of the old Beijing [54:30] gentlemen. That is, they have to [54:32] maintain this—of course, that’s [54:34] putting it negatively, but from a [54:35] kinder perspective, you could say this [54:37] kind of person... [54:38] It's a way of life, I think this way is [54:41] about living for dignity. [54:42] Right, and actually, because everyone, [54:44] I think people have a very positive [54:46] perception of this, because dignity is [54:47] becoming increasingly lost nowadays, so [54:49] people still think having dignity is a [54:51] good thing, yes. [54:52] So, so I think what you just said [54:54] actually has two sides; one part is [54:56] that, as you said, there's that element [54:58] of loyalty and righteousness. But the [55:01] other part is that they’ve gotten too [55:03] deep into this social role. You [55:05] understand? You don't actually have the [55:08] capability, but once you enter that [55:10] role, you have to act according to that [55:12] role. "I am the CEO, so I must help you [55:15] ," even if I'm actually broke, get it? [55:17] This doesn't just apply to individual [55:20] business people. Many big stars in [55:22] America, famous ones like Marlon Brando [55:25] . [55:25] After they passed away, they left [55:28] behind so much debt. You see, many [55:30] people are like this; when a big star [55:33] passes away, it turns out they had been [55:35] maintaining an image, a lifestyle, and [55:38] a facade all along. [55:39] But they were actually broke; once they [55:41] passed away, it was revealed they were [55:43] in debt. But why? It's not just out of [55:46] greed. It could be, as you said, that [55:49] many people ask for their help, they [55:51] have to act like a boss, they might [55:53] even skip the Oscars, and so on. Such [55:55] cases are not rare; there are many such [55:58] high-profile figures. They occupy high [56:00] social roles and get locked into them. [56:03] Many can actually sustain it, while [56:05] others perhaps lack the actual capacity [56:08] , but they keep pushing. So, I think [56:10] the tragedy lies in this—this [56:12] evaluation is quite interesting. You [56:15] mentioned Du Yuesheng just now, and I [56:17] find that very interesting. For [56:19] instance, some people said about this [56:21] person—Mao Kan—that he was too kind [56:23] , so kind that he couldn't even bring [56:26] himself to kill a bird. How could such [56:28] a person simultaneously be an [56:30] entrepreneur? You see, that's why many [56:32] people said he wasn't suited for [56:34] entrepreneurship at all. [56:35] Entrepreneurship requires someone like [56:37] Xiao Mu, right? Thick-skinned, [56:39] shameless—as you yourself put it. [56:40] Knowing when to advance and retreat. [56:42] Knowing when to advance, but unable to [56:44] retreat. [56:44] Like being able to push through [56:45] obstacles, right? Right, exactly. So, [56:48] look, I think if we analyze this very [56:51] subtly, this is one side of a person. [56:54] But on the other hand, you say this [56:56] person, he values his reputation. How [56:59] do we distinguish between these two? I [57:01] think of Du Yuesheng. Du Yuesheng, you [57:04] see, was actually incredibly poor in [57:06] his later years, extremely poor in Hong [57:09] Kong, yet he had a stack of IOUs at [57:11] home. All the people who borrowed money [57:13] from him in his lifetime—that was [57:16] worth many gold bars, dozens of them— [57:18] before he died, he had his family burn [57:20] them all. He said, "I don't want that [57:23] after I die...""... [57:24] you keep them, and after you burn them, [57:27] don't let others worry about this [57:29] matter anymore." So, you could say that [57:33] by doing this, maybe those who owed the [57:35] debt didn't even know. My point is that [57:38] it wasn't just about maintaining a [57:40] facade in front of others. [57:41] Hmm. [57:42] To some extent, this was his set of [57:44] values. [57:45] Hmm. [57:46] It was his set of values. For example [57:48] ... [57:48] That was my principle for living my [57:49] whole life. [57:50] Right, I won't cause trouble for others [57:52] . You might not even realize it, but [57:54] I’ve been following that principle [57:56] all along. As for people like this, you [57:58] asked what they are after. Beyond the [58:00] image and the status, I think what they [58:02] really crave is the feeling of creating [58:05] a world. Whether this world is big or [58:07] small, a single night’s venture or a [58:09] grand spectacle like Du Yuesheng’s, [58:11] it’s a world of their own making, and [58:13] within it, they are the masters. I am [58:15] the one who provides. How could I ever [58:18] lower my head to ask you for anything? [58:20] In this space, I am the master; this is [58:22] their final principle. It is something [58:24] they cannot lose. If one day I have to [58:26] come and ask you for something, what [58:28] would that make me? Speaking of that, I [58:29] read something by a Zen master the [58:31] other day while you were talking about [58:33] Buddhism, and he used the term " [58:35] adversity as training." He said that [58:36] much of Zen is actually about this [58:38] training. He pointed to the "perfection [58:40] of patience," which is exactly that— [58:42] how do you endure humiliation? He said [58:43] the highest state of endurance is [58:44] reaching the point where you can endure [58:46] no more. It’s a question of whether [58:47] you can truly endure or not. It means [58:49] that your state of mind remains [58:50] completely unmoved. No matter the [58:52] difficulty you face, you don't waver. [58:53] He said the "stick and shout" in Zen, [58:55] where you are struck with a staff, is [58:56] the best form of this training; it lets [58:57] you experience enlightenment in the [58:59] shortest time. [58:59] Hey, Xiaomu, regarding what he said, [59:01] have you encountered such desperate [59:03] situations in your life? [59:04] Quite a few, right? [59:06] Yes. [59:07] When did you feel like there was no [59:09] tomorrow? [59:09] Mm. [59:10] When was that? [59:12] Uh, it was probably after ten years of [59:14] hard work, when I had finally managed [59:16] to take hold of those few streets. And [59:18] then, effectively... [59:19] It became my territory. That part is [59:22] crucial. [59:22] So, which gang were they from? They? [59:25] I’m my own gang, it has nothing to do [59:27] with others. If you want to talk about [59:29] a gang, it’s a "Hunan gang" I started [59:31] myself, because I don't rely on anyone [59:32] else. Once I had taken that territory [59:35] and those three streets were mine, [59:36] suddenly, one day, the "Northeast gang" [59:39] showed up. They essentially held me [59:41] hostage in a coffee shop and said, " [59:43] Starting tomorrow..." This gang wasn't [59:45] necessarily illegal; they acted as [59:47] brokers and middlemen within the bounds [59:50] of the law. They wanted the business I [59:52] had established—there was that [59:54] competitive tension. And so they said, [59:56] "Starting tomorrow, your staff belongs [59:59] to us.""Go find your own customers." [60:01] And you have our people stationed on [60:03] those few streets. When I walked into [60:06] this shop, into this café, I knew [60:08] these people were making trouble. I [60:10] called the police and said, "I'm in [60:12] trouble, I'm heading to this location, [60:15] can you come over?" At that moment, I [60:17] felt it was very dangerous, which is [60:19] why I called the police and my friends. [60:21] If the police hadn't come, from the [60:23] next day on, my life—I might have—I [60:25] might have committed suicide, because [60:27] the territory I spent over a decade [60:29] establishing was taken away by them in [60:31] a single month, a single night, and I [60:33] felt terrible about it. Even though [60:34] they couldn't kill me, I felt like I [60:36] had nothing left. See, our ways of [60:38] thinking are different. If I ran into [60:41] something like this, I'd learn my [60:43] lesson. A wise man doesn't stand under [60:45] a tottering wall; if it's not working [60:46] out here, man, I'm leaving. No, I [60:48] insisted on staying there. I felt—I [60:51] felt like that was my world, what I [60:53] should be doing, but in reality, I [60:54] still established 30. Bottom line. I [60:57] didn't trouble anyone else, didn't hurt [61:00] anyone else. You're just trying to take [61:02] my place because you want to make a [61:03] living, but I can share one street with [61:05] you. Later, I actually did give them [61:07] one street. I was only left with two [61:09] streets, and that's how we resolved it; [61:11] I made certain concessions. [61:12] Yes, I definitely made concessions [61:14] because I wanted to hold my ground. As [61:15] a result, we've become good friends; [61:17] when we're in Beijing, we go out for [61:18] drinks. All the people who came to mess [61:20] with me originally became my friends. [61:21] That's just how it is. [61:23] So do you see? This issue of adversity [61:25] quotient is superficial. Actually, I've [61:28] now realized that the term "adversity [61:30] quotient" isn't scientific. The term " [61:32] adversity quotient" isn't scientific. [61:34] Why? Because a person's reaction after [61:37] encountering adversity actually has [61:39] nothing to do with this "quotient," but [61:41] rather has more to do with your values, [61:43] your character, or what you consider to [61:46] be most important. For example, [61:48] everyone encounters adversity. If I run [61:51] into some situation—I was thinking [61:53] about it myself last night—I asked [61:55] myself what I am, and I discovered that [61:58] the first thing I think about is [62:00] whether my standard of living will drop [62:02] . Honestly, I'm just trying to make a [62:05] living. Regardless of any desperate [62:07] situation I face, I, for instance, set [62:10] a UN poverty line, right? That is, two [62:12] US dollars a day. I mean, I will, and [62:15] what is my defining trait? I always [62:18] imagine the worst-case scenario for [62:20] everything, which is a major source of [62:23] my life's pain. Because before anything [62:27] happens, I think of the worst possible [62:30] outcome, so much so that when I saw [62:32] someone with OCD, and they said what [62:34] their doctor told them was a symptom of [62:37] OCD, I felt it fit me perfectly—what [62:40] is it called? It’s magnifying small [62:43] probabilities to the extreme. [62:45] Exactly the same. [62:47] This is exactly the same as them. [62:49] For example, it really is like " [62:50] worrying that the sky will fall." Like [62:52] saying, if I go out today, will a brick [62:54] fall on my head? The probability is [62:56] very low, but for an OCD patient, that [62:58] thought completely tortures them—what [63:00] if it actually happens? A couple of [63:02] days ago, I suddenly had a short fever, [63:04] and I immediately looked it up online. [63:06] It said it could be a sign of a [63:08] myocardial infarction, which kept me up [63:11] all night—just like that, always [63:13] thinking the worst. [63:14] Yes, that’s one side of me, but I [63:16] actually understand what you mean by [63:18] intelligence—it's about resilience. [63:20] Yes. [63:21] Actually, resilience—that summary is [63:24] very accurate. When people are under [63:26] pressure, it's what determines what is [63:28] right in your life. Well, ultimately, [63:31] there are two things that matter most: [63:33] one is how you live well, which is the [63:36] most important, so you think, "If this [63:39] thing happens, it's bad for me, right?" [63:41] How much will it damage my ability to [63:44] live well? How much damage will it do? [63:47] Will I lose this job? Will I...right? [63:50] Will I end up homeless? If I can handle [63:53] that damage, then I will adjust and [63:55] accept it. But there is a second aspect [63:58] , a second thing—many people believe [64:00] in something, and if someone asks you [64:03] to give up what you believe in and do [64:05] things you don't believe in at all, [64:08] that is also a threshold of tolerance. [64:11] You're right. [64:13] This is also a form of tolerance, and [64:15] this threshold of tolerance is the same [64:17] for me. I mean, of course I wouldn't [64:19] want to do things I’m unwilling to do [64:21] . If you force me to do things I don't [64:23] want to do, of course I won't do them. [64:25] But, I still weigh things first, like [64:27] whether my standard of living can be [64:29] maintained. [64:30] I can endure it, but it still comes [64:32] down to what we call "AQ"(adversity [64:35] quotient)—when you face a setback, [64:37] you're bound to feel upset, right? So, [64:40] what do you do when you're upset? I [64:43] first weigh whether or not this matter [64:45] will affect my life. Once I have a [64:49] bottom line, secondly, my method of [64:51] liberation is the opposite of Xiao Mu's [64:54] ; it can actually be summarized by a [64:56] line from Lu Xun, which is what? You [64:58] see, this poem by Lu Xun is very [65:00] interesting, "Tattered hat covering my [65:02] face as I walk through the busy street. [65:04] " [65:04] My hat is tattered, and in your eyes, I [65:07] must look quite ridiculous, right? I, I [65:09] am pathetic, I might be the butt of [65:11] your jokes, I might have messed up my [65:12] life quite badly. A tattered hat [65:14] covering one's face is actually an [65:15] ostrich policy, you know? I don't see [65:17] it, I don't see it, I don't see it, I [65:19] don't care about you all. It's just a [65:21] tattered hat covering my face, crossing [65:23] the leaking boat; who knows how many [65:25] days this boat will last? But we should [65:27] enjoy the wine we have today, right? [65:30] The leaking boat drifts in midstream, [65:32] and then, I hide in my small tower to [65:34] be at peace, I don't care, I'll just [65:36] get lost in my own world. [65:38] Is this small tower of yours the one in [65:41] Hong Kong, is it? Your small tower is [65:43] also quite... [65:44] So I say my first bottom line is [65:46] whether my small tower still exists; as [65:48] long as my small tower is there. [65:50] I have a small tower to hide in. Of [65:52] course, that's it; people need a bit of [65:55] Ah Q spirit, right? If people aren't [65:57] optimistic, you really can't go on [66:00] living; we only live once. [66:01] Because back then, you know, there was [66:03] a high jumper, I always remember, named [66:05] Zhu Jianhua, yes, he didn't clear the [66:07] final jump, that old... [66:08] That high jump ultimately ended in [66:10] failure, the whole country adored him, [66:11] and later the whole country... [66:13] The Los Angeles Olympics. Yes, later [66:16] everyone criticized him, the immense [66:18] psychological pressure he must have [66:20] endured. But I always remember he later [66:23] said, or someone said, that a teacher [66:25] told him, "You should imagine you are [66:28] living in a glass dome; you can see [66:31] everything outside, but just pretend [66:33] you can't hear them." [66:35] As long as they can't hurt you, it's [66:37] fine. [66:37] Just stay in this, live inside this [66:40] dome. [66:40] This is a luxury, because I was [66:42] recently binge-watching that show, *The [66:44] Crown*, about the Queen. Look, even the [66:46] Queen of England had to change herself [66:48] at that time, go on television, and [66:50] read lines. She said, "I, a Queen, am [66:52] treated like an actor, I have to go on [66:54] TV and smile for everyone." She smiles [66:57] at the camera, saying, "Merry Christmas [66:59] to everyone," but the moment the lights [67:01] go off, her face is just, well... [67:04] But one still has to keep up with the [67:06] times; our era is just like this. Take [67:08] me, a journalist; what we used to [67:10] believe in was that your reports, your [67:12] work, was considered good if your peers [67:14] thought so, if you yourself felt good [67:16] about it, or if it aligned with what we [67:18] call "classic" values. Now, it’s all [67:20] about click rates, right? Well, it's [67:22] not like I can just grit my teeth and [67:24] decide to chase after that. I really [67:26] don't have that skill. It's not a [67:28] matter of just gritting my teeth and [67:29] being able to write those viral pieces [67:30] with hundreds of thousands of views. [67:32] It's not. It's a different set of [67:34] language, an entirely different thing, [67:35] and at this point, the barrier is too [67:36] high. To chase that trend, you need [67:38] your own niche, you need something [67:39] truly remarkable. If you don't have it, [67:41] you'll be in a lot of pain. Keeping up [67:43] with the trends is universal; not doing [67:45] so is quite a luxury. Not necessarily a [67:48] luxury, it's a symbol. Uh, there are [67:50] some things, for example, if you're [67:52] doing business or being a boss. Your [67:55] responsibilities are greater. Then it's [67:57] not just a matter of your niche, hmm. [68:00] But those of us who teach have it a bit [68:01] better; you see, you can choose to do [68:03] certain things. [68:04] Right. [68:05] Meaning your responsibilities aren't as [68:07] heavy; you are within your own control. [68:09] Isn't that right? You see, this is [68:11] about everyone choosing their own niche [68:13] . I think this is very important. When [68:16] a person chooses a career, it's not [68:18] just about searching for lifelong [68:19] happiness or pursuing your beliefs, but [68:21] also about recognizing your own [68:23] capabilities. [68:24] Right. When you work within your [68:26] capabilities, your adversity quotient [68:27] is higher; your stress resistance [68:29] allows you to say no. Don't accept [68:30] everything, don't just say "everything [68:32] is OK," and everything... [68:33] Once you take on things you can't [68:35] handle, then... [68:36] Learn to refuse. Hey, what Professor Xu [68:39] just said was excellent. It made me [68:41] realize this issue: in recent years, [68:43] we've seen reports about Gen Z, like a [68:45] 16-year-old girl saying, "I've made [68:46] tens of millions, you middle-aged [68:48] people, you're just taking a salary, [68:50] what are you doing?" But in the end, [68:52] when you investigate, who actually made [68:54] it? How many are there? Most people, I [68:57] think, still just earn a stable income [68:59] and live a moderate life. The stability [69:02] of this society also depends on a large [69:05] middle class. Let me tell you why I say [69:08] this. Just like what Takeshi Kitano [69:10] said the other day, I agree with his [69:12] sentiment, which is... [69:13] You don't need to encourage your [69:15] children to become geniuses. [69:17] Hmm. [69:18] That kind of genius, one in a million, [69:21] a true genius, even if parents forbid [69:24] them from music, they'll find their own [69:26] way. [69:28] You can't hold back that kind of person [69:30] ; it's their destiny. You just can't [69:33] stop it. But most of us are just [69:36] ordinary people. I feel it's safer to [69:39] have modest goals. Like what I tell my [69:43] students, if it were my own child, [69:45] I’d tell them: don’t spend money [69:47] you don’t have, live within your [69:49] means. The same goes for fame—don’t [69:54] chase a reputation that isn’t yours. [69:56] Right. [69:57] In the end, you help them set some [69:59] aside. [70:00] No, it's not what you think. Take these [70:02] entrepreneurs, for instance—I know so [70:04] many of these big bosses, and I really [70:07] feel they aren't ordinary people. [70:09] Mm. [70:10] I observe them, and I often tell them, [70:13] "You find fortune in the midst of [70:16] danger." Just look at the person. I [70:20] mean, they always seem to end up in [70:23] certain places. For example, one once [70:26] told me, "I was flying that day, [70:28] looking out the window, and I thought, [70:31] why is the engine on fire?" Did he even [70:34] realize it? The engine caught fire, [70:37] they landed, and he was fine. [70:39] It was like, they took a helicopter—a [70:42] big boss taking a helicopter from Macau [70:44] to Hong Kong. Once he was over Hong [70:46] Kong, he looked out and thought, " [70:48] What's going on? The engine stopped." [70:50] Right, right. [70:52] Nothing bad happened, you see? [70:54] And look at the things they do. I told [70:57] him: "The kind of high-stakes risks and [71:00] financing you're doing,"" [71:01] 99 out of 100 people would have [71:04] collapsed."" [71:05] This is human art, this is truly human [71:08] art." I have met such people. There's [71:11] an element of luck involved, but what [71:13] we're discussing is the psychological [71:15] pressure, the mindset. I even met [71:17] someone whose helicopter crashed flying [71:19] from Hong Kong to Macau, and he was [71:21] fine. He went to a casino in Macau, [71:23] pulled a slot machine, hit 7-7-7, and [71:25] won a fortune. I don't know about [71:27] people like that, but anyway, that's [71:29] why, in how I raise my children, I'm [71:31] now terrified of them always wanting to [71:32] win. Actually, children have this [71:35] natural instinct. I don't know if [71:36] you've observed this, but when they see [71:38] their classmates or peers having [71:40] something good, they immediately get [71:41] jealous and wonder, "Why didn't I win?" [71:43] "Why am I not...?" [71:45] Later on, I realized a really simple [71:47] way to help my child learn to accept [71:49] failure. Since my child is young, the [71:51] simplest method is what? Play games [71:53] like checkers or Ludo with them. You [71:55] don't always have to play fairly to win [71:57] ; you just control the luck. [71:58] Exactly. You choose, and you find that [72:01] sometimes they can't win, and oh, [72:02] they're unhappy, really unhappy! Let [72:03] them win one out of five games, but [72:05] lose the others, so they realize, "Oh, [72:06] I lost today, but let's try again, [72:08] maybe I'll win." It slowly tempers [72:10] their temperament. Speaking of [72:11] children's education, it's a matter of [72:13] playing games. When I taught my child [72:15] to play Go, back when they were just [72:17] learning, I would always beat them. [72:18] They would cry, and if I let them win, [72:20] they wouldn't feel it was genuine. So, [72:22] I just sent them away to be taught by [72:25] Ye Ping's son, who was in Japan. [72:27] When they were away, they didn't dare [72:29] to cry. It helps them build resilience [72:30] from a young age—specifically, the [72:32] ability to handle failure. [72:33] I've noticed that many kids nowadays... [72:35] They can't stand losing. Right. [72:38] Sometimes when they play games by [72:39] themselves, [72:40] they cry by themselves and get angry at [72:42] themselves. You call that playing? [72:44] That’s exactly when I realized the [72:46] extent of my own talent. I play bridge [72:49] against a computer. [72:50] When I play against the computer and [72:52] lose, [72:53] I feel unhappy inside. [72:55] But recently, something happened to a [72:57] bridge partner of mine, a fellow player [73:00] . They passed away recently. It was a [73:03] stroke. [73:03] Brain... [73:04] Hemorrhage. I asked their wife what the [73:07] last thing they did was before they got [73:10] sick. They were playing bridge alone on [73:12] the Xinrui Bridge platform. [73:13] Oh, they were unhappy. [73:15] They lost a game, and a few hours later [73:18] , they had a stroke. [73:19] So now, even though I still play online [73:22] , I tell myself: "You, someone who gets [73:24] upset just from losing a game to a [73:27] computer,""what right do you have to [73:29] engage in real-world competition?" [73:31] Right? Get a grip on yourself. I think [73:35] the reason Mao Kai's case is so [73:37] attention-grabbing, aside from the [73:39] moral implications of his suicide or [73:41] the fact that he was a legend, is that [73:43] I think people also have a sense of [73:45] this being a cautionary tale. A sudden [73:47] success like that hides many unstable [73:49] factors, and because he couldn't find a [73:51] way out later, I think the public's [73:53] focus is justified. I just feel, as we [73:55] say in the Northeast, one should be a [73:57] down-to-earth person. A person has to [73:59] remain...for instance, I feel I’m [74:01] quite ordinary. I’m an ordinary [74:03] person, and my mental resilience is [74:05] that of an ordinary person, right? I [74:07] can handle a debt of 100,000, but I [74:09] can't handle a million. So you know, [74:11] one shouldn't try to take on a task if [74:13] one lacks the skills for it. People [74:15] like Xiao Mu are artists; I truly [74:17] admire his level of mental resilience. [74:20] Six divorces—if you can handle that, [74:22] you must have a certain measure of [74:25] yourself. I really feel that people [74:27] like us, aren't we the majority that [74:29] stabilizes society? Meaning, I don't [74:32] take unnecessary risks, and I find a [74:33] job that’s enough to support myself, [74:35] doing everything based on my ability. [74:37] Right, always think of the worst-case [74:39] scenario first. Can I handle it? If I [74:42] can, then do it. I just work hard to do [74:45] my best, that's enough. As for those [74:47] people, how should I put it, people [74:50] like Xiao Mu, I tell you, they don't [74:52] need anyone's encouragement. Heroes and [74:56] legends emerge from the real world. [74:59] Actually, I really feel now, you know, [75:01] I've been tempted these past few years. [75:03] I’m telling you, the people I know [75:06] are top-tier, people from investment [75:08] banks, and in the end, I’d ask them [75:10] if I could...everyone was offering me [75:12] money. [75:12] Giving me money, right? I mean, they [75:15] offered tens of millions, and I asked [75:18] if I could really take that money, [75:20] right? Could I actually take it? [75:22] They said, "Don't worry." Even if they [75:26] are your good friends, no one is going [75:29] to give you tens of millions to spend [75:31] however you like without expecting a [75:33] profit. You think too highly of [75:36] yourself, thinking, "Oh, I’m an IP!" [75:39] You're nothing. If they give you money, [75:42] is it really yours? [75:44] Right, if you don't generate profit for [75:46] them, they just give you money to spend [75:48] for fun? Keep dreaming, such things [75:50] don't exist in this world. Some people [75:52] say they are my buddies, saying [75:53] they’re truly sincere, and they’ll [75:55] give me this, they’ll invest in me, [75:56] just invest in me. He said don't think [75:59] about that. You don't have any friend [76:01] in the world, no matter how close, who [76:03] would give you 10 million and not want [76:04] anything in return, right? Are they a [76:07] fool? So I feel my example shows that [76:09] in the end, unless we truly have a [76:12] confident plan, we shouldn't accept [76:14] other people's investment, right? This [76:17] If you have the ability, go ahead and [76:20] do it. Like what I thought: can I just [76:22] take out a loan and spend it myself? [76:24] That's called being kept. Right, so [76:28] lately I'm also selling myself for 50 [76:30] million. Am I a solo act now? I said, [76:33] who wants you? You. [76:36] I can take RMB, or pay in other [76:38] currencies, or even Japanese Yen. I [76:40] posted it on Weibo and WeChat. [76:42] Are you selling yourself? [76:43] Selling this piece of cured meat? [76:45] Yes, yes, yes, selling meat. [76:47] Italian Lira works too, right. I've [76:49] also observed a characteristic of [76:51] Japanese society—I lived there for a [76:53] year, though I'm not sure if this is [76:54] accurate—but a Japanese friend of [76:56] mine told me that the strict rules you [76:58] see aren't self-discipline, but " [77:00] other-discipline." They are terrified [77:01] of being noticed, terrified of being [77:03] different, and terrified of [77:05] inconveniencing others. So, to break [77:07] free from this social inertia, you have [77:09] to be more than others—basically, you [77:11] have to be completely shameless and [77:12] reject all external constraints. That's [77:14] why the great Japanese artists we see [77:16] are often more avant-garde, more [77:18] pioneering, and more reckless than [77:19] artists from other countries. Because [77:21] their social inertia is so strong, if [77:23] they want to break out, they must... [77:25] They go to greater extremes. [77:27] They must be more extreme to stand out. [77:29] This is what we often say: Japanese [77:30] people at home and Japanese people [77:32] abroad are like two completely [77:33] different people. [77:33] How so? [77:35] For example, in Japan, when you make a [77:36] phone call, you must be quiet and [77:38] discreet, and you absolutely cannot [77:40] talk on the train. The other day at the [77:42] Shanghai Pudong Airport, I saw a [77:43] Japanese person sitting there, making a [77:45] very loud phone call. I went up to him [77:47] and asked in Japanese, "Do you make [77:48] phone calls like this back in Japan?" [77:50] As soon as he heard that, he [77:51] immediately stood up and walked away. [77:53] Yeah, he's just conforming to that [77:55] society. [77:55] Oh, and another thing: I was at [77:57] Shanghai Pudong Airport again, and a [77:58] Japanese person was holding his [78:00] passport and shouting at the young [78:02] clerk, saying, "You touched my passport [78:04] !" I went up and cursed them in [78:05] Japanese, saying, "You jerk, why won't [78:07] you check my passport?" [78:08] Say it in Japanese then. [78:10] How do you say it in Japanese? " [78:12] The road devil is here." Exactly! And [78:15] the other guy just laughed. You tell [78:17] him to get you your plane ticket; he [78:19] has to check your passport, right? They [78:21] get a bit carried away. Once they go [78:24] abroad, they let loose and act [78:26] completely different from how they do [78:28] at home. So, it's really interesting [78:30] when you talk about Japan. Look, on one [78:33] hand, we certainly understand why many [78:35] people in China have hard feelings [78:37] toward Japan, but on the other hand, [78:40] look at the tourism bureau's numbers: [78:42] Chinese tourists traveling to Japan [78:44] have increased at an incredible rate, [78:46] reaching 870,000. [78:48] But after listening to Professor Jiang, [78:50] I realized that we shouldn't assume [78:52] Japan has always been this clean and [78:55] orderly. It's just so fascinating. Just [78:58] a few decades ago, it wasn't like this [79:01] at all. Recently, hasn't everyone in [79:03] Shanghai been asking, "What kind of [79:05] trash are you?""Are you calling me [79:08] trash?" Let me tell you, we can foresee [79:11] that Shanghai is leading the way. [79:13] Starting from Shanghai, I'm afraid we [79:15] will all eventually have to learn how [79:17] to sort our trash. Mm. [79:19] But do you know that Japan wasn't like [79:21] this from the beginning? I heard a [79:23] timeline saying it was around the 1964 [79:26] Olympics. That's when things changed, [79:28] when the government started [79:29] implementing this system. It used to be [79:31] dirty and messy, too. In 1963, to [79:33] prepare for the '64 Tokyo Olympics, [79:35] they started this revolution. [79:36] When you first went to Japan, did you [79:38] know how to sort trash? [79:39] When I first went to Japan, I even [79:40] wrote an article about this very thing. [79:42] I knew how to do it, but it was a [79:44] hassle. You know, and what happens when [79:45] you find it troublesome and get annoyed [79:47] with sorting trash? You just throw it [79:48] all out together. But Japan has its own [79:50] version of the "Chaoyang Aunties." [79:51] The Japanese "Chaoyang Aunties." And [79:53] then, the next morning when you open [79:54] your door... [79:55] It’s all back. [79:56] It's back. [79:57] Sigh. But honestly, we haven't really [79:59] talked about the benefits of sorting. [80:01] Mm. I think we don't highlight the [80:03] benefits well in China. Sorting is [80:05] actually their greatest strength. For [80:07] example, they have a dedicated station [80:09] for bulky waste. When international [80:10] students first arrived in the 80s, [80:12] you’d see a TV set there, and you'd [80:13] be thrilled! You'd drag it home, but no [80:15] matter what you did, it wouldn't turn [80:17] on. Then you’d look at the back and [80:18] see there’s no power cord. [80:19] No plug. [80:21] Then someone tells you that if the [80:22] power cord is cut off, it means the [80:24] item is completely broken and unusable. [80:26] Mm. [80:27] And the ones with power cords still [80:28] attached, that's people upgrading, [80:30] these can still be used. [80:31] A lot of Japanese exchange students. [80:33] Many Japanese exchange students, when [80:35] they first arrived in Japan, furnished [80:37] their entire homes from this oversized [80:39] trash. [80:39] Just like that. [80:41] You too? Right, you were in Tokyo on a [80:44] foundation grant and you were still [80:46] dumpster diving? Yeah, because the [80:48] apartment I lived in had a trash room, [80:49] and in that room, there would be books, [80:51] clothes, bowls, things people didn't [80:53] want and just left there. [80:54] I’d just go and pick up a couple of [80:56] things when I had time, things that [80:57] were worth taking, and I’d leave the [80:58] books I didn't want there too. My mom [81:00] even picked out textbooks for my future [81:02] kids from that trash room, from age one [81:04] to seven, everything was kept really [81:06] clean. [81:06] So Ma Ye, you couldn't make it in Japan [81:08] , you were just picking up junk. Right, [81:11] the fact that they can classify trash [81:13] so meticulously reflects the national [81:15] spirit, because promoting this [81:17] worldwide is extremely difficult. [81:19] It's very difficult, because the costs [81:21] are high. Look at Japan, in the [81:23] apartment I lived in, what do you call [81:25] it, the trash room even had a sink. [81:28] After you drop off your trash, you have [81:29] to wash your hands there, not even [81:31] mentioning the sorting part. The key is [81:33] that the room has an odor-removal [81:35] system, you know, a deodorizer. In [81:37] their buildings, if you bring a pet [81:38] back, to avoid bringing in dirt, [81:40] there’s even a foot-washing station [81:42] for dogs and cats by the building [81:44] entrance. [81:44] Ah. [81:45] They have reached, they have reached [81:47] this level of precision. Yes, it's like [81:49] , look, let's talk about the situation. [81:51] Why do I say that? I say they were also [81:54] messy and dirty at first, including [81:56] when Japan's economy was just taking [81:58] off, we know that now; it was pretty [82:00] much like a few Chinese tour groups [82:02] today, quite annoying, just like that [82:04] everywhere. But look, now it seems like [82:06] they’ve become especially clean, [82:08] right? But I remember there’s a [82:10] saying, I don't know if it's correct, [82:12] but there is this idea that to get an [82:14] introduction to Japanese culture, for [82:16] literature, you should start with a [82:18] book called*In Praise of Shadows*. [82:20] By whom? [82:21] Jun'ichiro Tanizaki. [82:23] Jun'ichiro Tanizaki, and they say for [82:24] films it should be*The Ballad of [82:26] Narayama*, and for photography, [82:27] Nobuyoshi Araki. This saying isn't [82:29] necessarily right, but I'm just [82:31] mentioning*In Praise of Shadows*. [82:32] You see, it was probably around the [82:35] beginning of the last century, the [82:37] 1920s or 30s, when Japan was [82:38] industrializing and Westernizing. [82:41] Intellectuals generally love to play [82:43] devil's advocate. Jun'ichiro Tanizaki [82:46] was mocking things, even Western-style [82:49] bathroom tiles, comparing them [82:51] unfavorably to our Japanese toilets. [82:54] Our Japanese toilets were made of wood, [82:57] with direct access to the earth below; [83:00] using them was a kind of "toilet [83:02] worship." [83:04] Quite repulsed, he even went so far as [83:07] to talk about teeth. [83:10] He said that with the influx of Western [83:12] culture, every Japanese man and woman [83:15] wanted to have a set of perfectly [83:17] straight white teeth. He said, "I don't [83:20] find that beautiful; some elderly [83:23] Japanese people, the tobacco stains on [83:25] their teeth, including my own bad teeth [83:28] and yellowish complexion, I find them [83:31] to have a natural beauty." He was [83:34] resisting, playing devil's advocate, [83:36] saying, "Looking at all these white [83:38] teeth in Japan now reminds me of tiles [83:41] in European and American toilets, [83:43] lacking any character." Then he even [83:48] mentioned something quite funny, and [83:50] while there were elements of prejudice, [83:52] he said that among these Eastern [83:54] peoples—and as you said, why Japan [83:56] succeeded in implementing it, starting [83:59] from scratch—they carried it through. [84:03] He said only the Japanese were so [84:06] earnest; whatever you asked them to do, [84:08] they would do it very diligently. He [84:11] said that a while ago, a tour group [84:13] went to China, back when Zhang Xueliang [84:16] was in the Northeast, you know? They [84:18] took the best train in China, and they [84:21] said the toilets and everything were [84:23] extremely dirty. But even though he [84:28] said that, he had a change of heart, [84:30] thinking that compared to the Western [84:33] concept of hygiene, maybe there is [84:35] something in our so-called laziness? [84:40] A beauty, a sense of leisure in life. [84:43] From his thoughts, you can see that [84:45] when Japan began to accept Western [84:48] notions of hygiene, some intellectuals [84:50] of the old culture still reacted this [84:52] way. But the three people you just [84:54] mentioned are actually figures who [84:56] represent a "perverted beauty" in Japan [84:58] . These three individuals you mentioned [85:00] are all top-tier—one in literature, [85:02] one in film, and the other one. Things [85:04] like photography, it’s all truly [85:06] taken to the extreme. So, in the minds [85:08] of many of us who are uninformed, the [85:09] Japanese seem quite perverted, which is [85:11] why they look down on Japan. [85:12] Why is that? Is it because the work [85:14] pressure is too high? [85:15] Or is it cultural? Why do Chinese [85:18] people go to Japan? Whether you like [85:20] Japan or not, when you actually travel [85:22] there, it feels really good. I've met [85:25] many people like this. I won't name [85:27] names, these are well-known people, but [85:29] they would talk to me and express such [85:31] hatred for Japan. They would curse it [85:32] all day long, and later I asked, "Have [85:34] you ever been to Japan?" They said no. [85:37] I told them, "If you haven't been, [85:38] talking about it is pointless." I [85:40] suggested they go, and after they [85:42] visited a couple of times, they called [85:44] me up, saying, "I've just returned from [85:46] Japan and have a new perspective, let's [85:48] grab a meal." Their view of Japan had [85:50] completely shifted. You see, all those [85:53] hearsay stories and the perverted [85:55] things they claimed to have seen made [85:57] up their entire initial understanding [86:00] of Japan. When they actually went to [86:01] Japan, the benefits they gained were [86:03] not on that level at all; they were in [86:05] the most minute details of daily life. [86:07] For example, after using the restroom, [86:09] you feel very comfortable, right? It's [86:10] spotless, no matter where you are; [86:12] sometimes you even feel bad about [86:13] yourself, like, oh, you really [86:14] shouldn't... [86:15] Feel like you’re the one who is messy [86:17] . [86:17] Yes, exactly, you don't want to break [86:18] anything or mess anything up, you just [86:19] put everything back where it belongs. [86:21] Returning to this weekly family topic, [86:22] what are some other characteristics of [86:24] Japanese culture? It focuses on the [86:26] here and now, not the afterlife. It’s [86:28] all about this specific moment—* [86:30] ichi-go ichi-e*(one time, one meeting). [86:32] Once the gathering ends, it’s gone, [86:35] right? It’s strictly about the [86:37] present. You mentioned the Japanese tea [86:39] master, Sen no Rikyu, right? [86:41] As for Sen no Rikyu, I have visited [86:42] that incredibly famous tea room of his. [86:45] At the time, he was actually serving [86:47] Toyotomi Hideyoshi. In the end, he was [86:49] either killed or died—Sen no Rikyu [86:52] was forced to commit suicide, forced to [86:54] commit suicide. You know, Toyotomi [86:56] Hideyoshi belonged to the shogunate, so [86:59] he represented that extravagant, noble [87:02] style. But Sen no Rikyu himself [87:05] advocated for simplicity—his style of [87:08] tea was… [87:09] Minimalism. [87:10] Minimalism, exactly. It’s tiny, they [87:13] call it one-and-a-half or two mats, and [87:16] the door you enter through is only as [87:18] high as a table; you have to go in like [87:21] a dog. [87:22] Crawl in. [87:23] And then, well, there’s an old piece [87:25] of wood, a pillar in the middle, and a [87:27] very simple scroll hanging; but the [87:29] main thing is the wall. [87:31] That wall, I’m telling you, it’s [87:32] just like the kitchen stove back in our [87:34] countryside. [87:35] No, and it's not just an earthen wall [87:37] blackened by soot, it’s that kind of [87:39] dark, dingy look that still shows the [87:41] texture of the soil. Do you know why I [87:44] went? Because a friend of mine in [87:45] Taiwan, a tea dealer who is quite [87:47] wealthy. Insisted on recreating this [87:49] exactly like the one in Japan, with a [87:50] Japanese company. [87:51] Said he was determined to do it. [87:53] Hmm. [87:53] But do you know what? He told me. [87:56] It just doesn't feel right. [87:57] He can’t continue with this project. [87:59] Because he’s very particular, and [88:00] even the Japanese company admitted that [88:01] achieving that authentic soot-blackened [88:03] effect on those mud walls is impossible [88:04] . [88:04] No matter how he looks at it, it’s [88:06] not like Sen no Rikyu’s. [88:07] Right. [88:08] It’s just different. Don't [88:10] underestimate that, and as you said, [88:12] the afternoon sunlight. [88:14] Just a little bit comes in. [88:15] Right, it's basically dim lighting, it [88:17] ... [88:17] It's mostly kept dim, yes, and [88:19] depending on the angle of the time of [88:20] day, as you kneel there. [88:22] So the tea master will explain to you [88:23] when the light hits this, or when the [88:24] light hits that. [88:25] Yes, that sense of gloom and depth. [88:28] And all the tea rooms, that low door [88:30] you mentioned that forces you to duck, [88:32] it’s intentional; why is that? It’s [88:35] to make you feel a sense of awe when [88:37] you arrive; in the past, warriors had [88:39] to enter the tea room before going to [88:40] battle, why drink tea? When you have to [88:42] lower your head to enter, it means all [88:44] your ego and worldly attachments are [88:46] stripped away. [88:47] Hmm. [88:48] And so you feel awe. Look at Japanese [88:51] shrines, when you enter, there’s that [88:54] path of crushed gravel; isn't it to [88:56] signal that you are entering a new [88:58] realm, different from your mundane life [89:01] ? When you step on that gravel, you [89:03] naturally become solemn. So they [89:06] constantly make sure you feel a sense [89:08] of reverence in everything; this is a [89:11] characteristic of the Japanese people. [89:13] Everything is ritualized, procedural, [89:16] formatted, and designed to evoke your [89:18] sense of awe and dedication; this is [89:20] their specialty. [89:21] But let me ask one more thing. Hmm. [89:24] Isn't it hypocritical? If you cannot [89:27] express your true inner self in this [89:29] society, isn't that just hypocrisy? [89:31] Can’t you stop being so hypocritical? [89:34] Hmm. [89:35] Does society really demand that you be [89:37] this hypocritical? That’s why I was [89:39] telling Teacher Ma, when we talk about [89:41] Japan, if you want to understand [89:42] Japanese society, you won’t get [89:44] anywhere just by chatting with Japanese [89:46] people. What you want to hear and what [89:48] they say are simply on different [89:49] wavelengths. You see, to understand [89:51] Japanese society, you have to read [89:53] books written by Japanese people, like [89:55] those by Ichiro Kuki. He takes [89:57] everything repressed deep in his heart [89:59] and vents it out; he is able to write [90:01] it all down. Including Dazai Osamu, [90:03] right? With that desire to die, the [90:06] suicide pacts with five women—some he [90:08] attempted, some he caused—but [90:10] that’s just it, you only find this in [90:12] Japan. I always hear people talking [90:15] about the refined beauty of Japanese [90:17] culture and so on, but I actually think [90:19] the most important trait of Japanese [90:22] culture is that it provides a way to [90:24] express the things you can’t say or [90:26] vent. So, Japanese culture is a great [90:29] drainage ditch. A ditch to drain [90:32] desires. [90:32] A ditch; their desires are far from few [90:35] . Yes, it has a drainage system for [90:37] desires. Right, Teacher Jiang, because [90:40] you’ve stayed in Japan for a long [90:42] time, you can’t just call yourself [90:44] half-Japanese, but your understanding [90:46] of Japanese culture is certainly much [90:48] deeper than ours. [90:49] However, when we observe Japanese [90:51] culture, we sometimes encounter certain [90:53] things. For example, in my own [90:55] experience, I was in Japan to [90:57] commission a tea set, so I found some [90:58] master craftsmen and had a set of nine [91:00] pots made, and there was one incident [91:02] with a pot that left a deep impression [91:04] on me. The pot was made like this: [91:06] after firing it, like this teapot here, [91:08] there was a second process called " [91:10] hanging." [91:11] Hmm. [91:12] It involves drying seaweed, wrapping it [91:14] around the pot, and firing it again, [91:16] which creates a beautiful, starry glaze [91:19] on the surface. This craftsman was over [91:21] 70, a true master. But isn't seaweed [91:24] just seaweed? Couldn't you just find [91:27] someone to fish it out and dry it, then [91:28] wrap it on? But the old man insisted on [91:30] going to the beach himself to find this [91:32] grass, regardless of the time. We were [91:34] in a hurry, but if you don't finish [91:36] this step, nothing else can be done, [91:38] right? He could've asked someone to go [91:39] collect the grass, but at over 70, he [91:41] goes down to the shore to gather the [91:42] grass himself. After drying it out, you [91:44] find an assistant to help tie it onto [91:46] the mold. He ties the grass onto the [91:47] mold, looking just like a bird's nest; [91:49] it starts this size and grows bit by [91:51] bit as he ties it on. He has to tie it [91:54] himself. Once tied, he fires it; the [91:56] whole process isn't touched by anyone [91:57] else, it’s complete self-discipline, [91:59] a conversation with his inner self. [92:01] A conversation with the inner self. [92:03] This is incredible; no craftsman we [92:05] have in China can do this. Usually, [92:07] they let the apprentices do everything, [92:09] and the master just puts his seal on it [92:11] at the end. [92:12] Yeah. [92:13] Ma said we just interviewed a "Living [92:15] National Treasure" in Gangshan County [92:17] who works with pottery. He told me that [92:21] throughout the entire process, he and [92:23] the pottery he's creating must be [92:25] connected; from the moment I start with [92:28] the clay, I talk to it. I chat with it [92:31] just like that, including when it goes [92:33] into the kiln. I wait outside, saying, [92:35] "I'm waiting for you; you'll come out [92:37] beautifully soon." And when it comes [92:39] out, I thank it for enduring such [92:40] hardship, telling it, "Thank you for [92:42] being with me today." That’s the [92:44] feeling. [92:44] So, when he sells a used or old car, he [92:47] bows to it, thanking it for staying [92:50] with him for so many years, right? " [92:52] You've worked hard, and now I'm sending [92:55] you off." When we sell used cars, we [92:57] just roll back the odometer; we don't [93:00] dare face that, just setting the [93:02] mileage back first. It’s like back [93:04] then, the Tang Dynasty craftsmen [93:07] repairing those wooden roofs. They had [93:10] a specialist who chose the wood, and he [93:12] would talk to every piece to see if it [93:15] was suitable for the roof, making sure [93:17] to choose the right one, one that was [93:20] willing to become part of the roof. [93:23] This relates to Eastern culture, the [93:25] idea that everything has a spirit. [93:28] It's the belief that objects and people [93:31] are one; we usually talk about this in [93:34] more common terms, like "understanding [93:36] life." I’m not trying to brag, but I [93:40] also edit videos, and I had this [93:42] dilemma. The explanation I eventually [93:46] found was through talking to my editor; [93:48] he mentioned that the frame-by-frame [93:50] adjustments we do now...He said that 50 [93:53] %of the work we stay up late doing is [93:55] honestly an understatement. None of it [93:58] is actually perceptible to the audience [94:00] . [94:00] They can't feel it, they don't know. [94:02] So, can you tell me why that is? [94:04] In the end, after thinking it over, the [94:06] only way to explain it is through faith [94:08] . No, even if I don't do it, the [94:09] audience wouldn't be able to tell at [94:11] all. [94:11] But you have to say that this is a sort [94:14] of... [94:14] You can only attribute it to faith; if [94:16] you don't do it this way, you feel like [94:18] you’ve let yourself down. [94:19] Let yourself down. And I think in [94:21] Japanese society, these kinds of [94:23] beliefs are incredibly strong. Because [94:25] I’m a big fan of a Japanese writer [94:26] named Shusaku Endo; he’s a rare [94:28] Christian writer in Japan who writes [94:30] about religion. He talks about this, [94:32] and he has a very classic novel called [94:33] "Silence," which was later made into a [94:35] film. He basically says that [94:37] Christianity just couldn't take root in [94:39] Japan. Due to their inherent nature— [94:41] perhaps focusing on the present, not [94:43] believing in the afterlife, or whatever [94:44] it may be—they couldn't adopt other [94:46] religions, so his book "Silence" is [94:48] extremely pessimistic. Well, I know [94:50] that novel, but his argument isn't [94:52] quite right, because when Christianity [94:54] entered Japan, especially in Kyushu, it [94:57] was aimed directly at overthrowing the [94:59] government. It was aimed at [95:01] overthrowing the Shogunate, which is [95:02] why the Shogunate tried to eradicate it [95:05] . Zhao, having lived in Japan for so [95:06] many years, what do you think their [95:08] shortcomings are? The shortcoming is [95:10] that ambiguity we were talking about [95:11] earlier. It’s that you never know [95:13] which part of what they say is their [95:14] true intention. You know? You can never [95:17] really pin down their final thoughts. [95:19] And furthermore, you should never [95:20] expect to enter their inner circle. [95:22] Ultimately, you realize that no matter [95:24] how close you are, no matter how good [95:26] of a friend you are...There is always a [95:28] sense of distance, you know that. [95:30] So perhaps it is precisely this [95:32] attitude... [95:33] That’s why many of our countrymen [95:35] find them annoying, right? Let me give [95:37] you a very interesting example: a [95:39] Chinese parent came to me and said, " [95:41] Can you help me go to the school? They [95:44] won't grant me an interview; my child [95:46] is being bullied at this Japanese [95:48] school." After I finished at the school [95:51] , I went to help our Chinese media. [95:53] Afterward, the teacher told me that it [95:55] was their fault. They said they hadn't [95:57] managed things well and allowed us [95:59] reporters to come over, and they felt [96:01] bad about it. They said, "I'll take you [96:03] to the principal in a bit, and the [96:04] principal will apologize to you." They [96:06] added, "However, let me tell you [96:07] something; I have been observing this [96:09] situation.""You Chinese kids are [96:11] different from Japanese kids.""Once [96:12] Chinese kids decide they are good [96:14] friends, they stick together—do you [96:15] understand what I mean?" They hug and [96:17] hold each other, [96:18] thick as thieves. [96:20] Always hugging and holding on, [96:21] but Japanese children are taught from a [96:23] young age not to have physical contact. [96:25] Unless they are fighting, there is no [96:28] hand-holding or hugging. You won't see [96:30] that on the streets in Japan; you won't [96:33] see people arm-in-arm or hugging. In [96:35] China, you often see best friends doing [96:37] that; it's very common. Japan doesn't [96:40] have that; they lack physical contact. [96:42] So when a child goes to hug someone and [96:43] gets pushed away, they might think it's [96:45] because their language skills aren't [96:46] good enough. Doesn't it feel like [96:47] they're being bullied? This is just a [96:49] cultural difference.