张永和痛批500米大马路扼杀城市漫步

张永和痛批500米大马路扼杀城市漫步 大城市的高昂租金并不换取室内居住面积，而是购买紧凑街区与步行可达的丰富公共资源。 节目围绕当代青年的生活困境展开，深入探讨了移动支付与订阅陷阱背后的即时满足心理，并尖锐批判了996工作制、成功学神话对普通人身心的异化与剥削。嘉宾们从心理学“过渡客体”与“全能自恋”视角解析了当代人的补偿性消费，随后转向对服装审美的探讨，主张穿衣应从社交表演走向取悦自我的本真状态。最后，对谈延伸至城市规划领域，对比了500米超级街区对漫步乐趣的扼杀，以及都灵、京都与纽约高密度街区中独立小店赋予城市的生命力，反思了当下“City Walk”热潮与理想居住形态。 无痛支付与订阅制极大消除了消费的物理痛感，现代即时满足机制使人陷入冲动消费与全能自恋心理代偿。 (0:00) 996工作制被指为制度化剥削而非励志工具，企业常通过高压考核掩盖工时违法，剥夺普通人追求平凡生活的正当权利。 (23:01) 着装审美经历了从模仿符号到“悦己”与身体松弛的转变，过度的奢华堆砌往往源于内在认同的缺失。 (52:12) 现代城市500米超大街区与电商繁荣削弱了街道漫步乐趣，而高密度、小街区的“城市细胞”才是维持社区活力与宜居性的核心。 (85:45)

节目中窦文涛、梁文道、蒋方舟、武志红及张永和等嘉宾展开对话，指出数字时代的无痛支付与算法营销加剧了过度消费，而职场中制度化的超时工作与生存压力进一步导致劳动异化，迫使个体通过符号消费、审美悦己与实体街区漫游来寻求心理代偿与精神喘息。 无痛支付与消费主义的符号化 (0:00) 窦文涛指出，扫码支付和面部识别等无痛支付技术弱化了花钱的心理阻力，导致许多青年员工陷入非理性支出；梁文道分析称，无痛流程压缩了欲望延迟的时间，结合短视频带货，使商品成为低门槛代入理想自我的载体。蒋方舟与武志红进一步认为，当下的特立独行已被商业体系定价，年轻人通过购买奢侈品或博主同款借用集体身份与认同，反映出内在自我的缺失。 针对普遍的破产焦虑，武志红提出审慎看法，基于其心理机构员工的实际情况，他认为“青年普遍破产”存在媒体放大焦虑的倾向；真正容易发生消费失衡的多为公关、时尚等日常沉浸在极端财富环境但自身收入有限的行业从业者。 996超时工作与系统性劳动异化 (11:30) 针对职场工作时长，嘉宾们认为制度化的“996”工作制实质上构成了对劳动者整体人性的系统性剥削。企业管理层往往以任务未量化或效率低为由掩盖无偿加班，并通过智能通讯设备实行全天候绑定。嘉宾援引中华全国总工会第八次全国职工队伍状况调查指出，超20%的受访职工每周工作超过48小时，44%的受访者反映未能足额领到加班费。 关于加班是否属于个人自愿选择，嘉宾结合巴黎劳工抗议资方允许自愿加班的案例指出，一旦允许个别员工通过自愿加班获取更高薪酬，便会无形中推高竞争基准并迫使所有人被动卷入。在特大城市中，长达数小时的通勤更衍生出破碎的“三段式睡眠”，揭示了资本成功学口号背后的沉重生存现实。 心理退行、过渡客体与消费代偿 (31:50) 当日常劳动缺乏意义与幸福感时，消费成为年轻人获取即刻满足的情绪代偿渠道。嘉宾分析称，年轻人购买无法承担的房车大件，转而购买口红或服装，契合了以低成本支出换取快乐的“口红效应”。窦文涛自述对特定平价棉麻衣物触感的强烈迷恋，被心理学者视作寻找安全感与依恋的体现。 武志红运用心理学原理解释，此类触感依赖类似于童年期的“过渡客体”，本质是母爱意象的延伸；人在高阶段现实中遭受挫折时容易发生“心理退行”，甚至退缩至无法区分自我与外界的“全能自恋”状态。嘉宾总结认为，贫困的定义不仅在于实际收入水平，当欲望持续超出所得并试图以此弥补心理匮乏时，个体便会陷入深层的精神困局。 着装审美的阶梯与“悦己”态度 (52:12) 在服饰美学讨论中，建筑师张永和与嘉宾梳理了着装的三个层次：底线是干净整洁，进阶是适应场合的得体，最高境界则是摆脱外界评判、专注于取悦自我的自在。张永和强调，日常穿着应当自然地“长在身上”，而不是流于形式的角色扮演（Cosplay）。 讨论结合老照片中张开济的改良立领工装以及梁思成在背心加装防风三角领的历史设计，指出经典男装大多承袭自军装的功能性与结构美。嘉宾认为，许多人畏惧高饱和度色彩，根源在于对他人审视的焦虑；真正的高级穿搭并不依赖昂贵的消费标签，而建立在自信舒展的体态与自我悦纳的心态之上。 超级街区蔓延与城市生活细胞 (85:45) 对谈进一步反思了城市规划对日常生活的重塑。张永和指出，现代城市动辄500米见方的超级街区与过宽道路，严重扼杀了市民在街巷中随意漫步与偶遇交流的乐趣；相比之下，40米见方的人性化小街区能维持高密度的步行生态与自发的社交生活。 嘉宾们将独立书店、唱片店、家庭式咖啡馆比喻为城市的“活体细胞”，认为这些不以单纯利润最大化为导向的小店赋予了街区灵魂。尽管当下“City Walk”在年轻人中蔚然成风，但在香港等地区也显露出“旺丁不旺财”的消费乏力困境。嘉宾认为，高密度都市高昂租金的本质，在于换取步行15分钟内密集便利的公共文化与商业共享资源。 对谈展现了现代个体在数字消费诱惑、职场时间挤压与空间尺度异化下的多维困境，倡导通过理性省察、审美悦己与找回具身生活来对抗焦虑；但对于如何在制度层面扭转劳动权益保障落差、以及如何在昂贵租金下维系独立街区小店的商业生存，讨论未给出明确的解决方案。

[17:27] The unexamined life is not worth living [21:23] 小富由俭，大富由天 [31:50] 爱是夸我，爱是抱我 [34:10] 梁文道: 我买故我在 [41:03] 当你的欲望大于你的能力的时候，你就是一个穷人 [42:09] 奋斗者的光荣 [50:06] 可以躺平，但绝不能认命 [50:06] 带节奏 [72:41] 张永和: 下雪了北京就成了北平 [76:44] It takes three generations to learn how to dress and eat. [95:41] 阿城: Why not just keep going the wrong way and explore like this? [98:44] busy with people, but not wealth

[0:00] Regarding those credit cards, you know, [0:02] we have Gen Z employees on our team, [0:04] and I’ve realized this is a real [0:07] problem. It’s like, their feeling is [0:09] that they don’t actually intend to [0:10] spend that much money. They come to me [0:12] and say, "Oh my, what should I do?""I [0:14] spent 30,000 yuan in a month, and I [0:16] honestly don't know how," they say, [0:18] they really don't know where it went. [0:20] Later, they make excuses, saying [0:22] current payment methods are just too [0:25] evil—it's not just credit cards, you [0:27] know, all these bizarre apps out there [0:29] now. [0:30] And they say, especially... [0:32] The face-scanning ones are the most [0:34] terrifying. [0:35] Right, right, you just walk right [0:37] through. Plus, on these various online [0:39] shopping platforms, you know, it’s [0:41] truly different from the difficulty of [0:44] pulling out physical cash. You just tap [0:46] it; it’s getting more and more [0:48] convenient, increasingly...I feel like [0:50] this thing has become somewhat [0:52] addictive, including all those various [0:54] loans, legal or illegal. Didn't the [0:56] government have to crack down on things [0:58] like 'nude loans' years ago? If we [1:00] define this as an uncontrollable [1:02] addiction that leads to broken homes, [1:05] well, maybe it leads to bankruptcy. Is [1:07] it—but how do you control human [1:10] desire? The scam of modern technology [1:13] is that it gives you more freedom, but [1:15] you’re also more trapped; do you [1:17] really think you're free? You’re [1:20] completely...take the kids on our team, [1:22] for instance, they have no idea. [1:24] Swipe, swipe, swipe, swipe. Finally, [1:27] just last week, I noticed my phone bill [1:29] had suddenly jumped by over 1,000 yuan. [1:32] Oh, I was quite worried, calling here [1:34] and there, checking iTunes and whatnot. [1:37] I couldn't figure it out. The phone [1:39] company said, "Oh, this charge is from [1:42] Apple's iTunes." I called Apple, went [1:45] through all the ID verifications, and [1:48] finally, they asked, "Did you listen to [1:50] an audio lecture by a certain teacher?" [1:53] Oh, that course was over 400 yuan. [1:56] Was it that teacher, Wuse Hong? Or was [1:59] it actually Teacher Wendao? I was [2:01] completely caught off guard—it's just [2:03] stuff you don't even know about. Then I [2:05] kept finding several others, charging [2:07] me 58 yuan a month, 68 yuan a month, [2:09] all for things I barely know how to use [2:11] . I used them once, and they just keep [2:13] charging you like that, of course. [2:14] So, I finally understood what that kid [2:16] was talking about. [2:17] Right. [2:18] And another situation is that the most [2:20] troublesome part about consumption [2:22] today is how convenient it is; on one [2:24] hand, all these technologies keep [2:25] making the payment process easier. [2:27] It’s become very [2:28] Right, it's become convenient. What’s [2:30] the other side of this? Our current [2:32] desires demand immediate gratification. [2:34] Yes. [2:35] We don't have any chance for delay. [2:37] For example, if you wanted to buy a car [2:40] in the past, or even further back, when [2:42] clothes had to be custom-made, the [2:45] entire process from paying to receiving [2:47] the item was complex. That was a [2:49] situation where all your satisfaction [2:52] was delayed. But the problem is that [2:54] the satisfaction we want now is [2:56] instantaneous. And that immediacy isn't [2:58] even about the delivery being fast; the [3:01] satisfaction of clicking "order" or [3:03] scanning my face is greater than the [3:05] satisfaction of actually receiving the [3:07] item. [3:07] Mm-hmm. [3:08] So that sense of satisfaction is [3:10] constantly being compressed in time. [3:12] That’s why when you keep pursuing [3:14] this instant gratification, the [3:16] situation regarding debt and such will [3:17] only get more severe. And I think [3:19] merchants understand this very well, [3:21] which is why we can see that most [3:23] videos on the internet eventually turn [3:25] into so-called "influencer marketing." [3:28] You know, there will be this benchmark, [3:30] saying, "If you order now, you can [3:32] immediately get their matching jacket, [3:34] their matching..."...getting the same [3:37] style of this or that is actually the [3:39] lowest-cost way for you to become like [3:41] a celebrity. So, I think this is [3:43] what’s called "influencer marketing" [3:45] culture, which is probably something [3:46] merchants today understand [3:48] exceptionally well. It’s like, " [3:49] Alright, look, a shopping window pops [3:52] up right under this video; click now [3:54] and you can immediately get the same [3:56] dress as Huang Zhou." You just have no [3:58] way to resist that temptation. Fang [4:00] Zhou, excuse me, Professor Wu, I have a [4:04] curious question. Back when we were [4:06] young, it seemed like everyone took [4:08] pride in being different. [4:10] Walking your own path, you know? For [4:13] example, at that time, they said bars [4:15] in Shanghai were different from those [4:17] in Beijing, right? In Shanghai bars, [4:19] everyone dressed like they were on a [4:21] theater stage, right? And then a guy [4:23] would come into a Beijing bar wearing [4:24] drop-crotch pants, a military overcoat, [4:26] and carrying a birdcage—that was also [4:28] a style. But we felt back then, hey, [4:31] this guy, right? He wouldn't wear a [4:33] suit or tie. That is to say, being [4:36] different was considered rebellious, [4:38] and that was cool, right? Is that still [4:41] how you feel now? [4:42] No, I actually think this relates to [4:45] the point Wen-dao just made; it's a [4:47] concept that’s constantly [4:48] skyrocketing. For example, when [4:50] you’re 20, you might buy a trendy bag [4:52] that everyone else has, and you’re [4:54] satisfied because it’s the same one. [4:56] But then some people want to be [4:57] different, they want to be more upscale [4:59] , so they create a higher barrier to [5:01] entry. That’s why I think everyone [5:03] wants to be different, but being [5:04] different comes to mean more expensive [5:06] and better. [5:06] Tying those two together. [5:08] Right, so I think it’s a constantly [5:10] upgrading concept. You want to be just [5:13] a little bit better than everyone else, [5:15] so you spend more money. Thus, the [5:16] barrier—the so-called standard [5:18] barrier—gets higher and more [5:20] expensive as the definition of "upscale [5:22] " rises. What we were just talking [5:24] about really centers on a person [5:26] seeking a certain kind of validation; [5:28] for instance, the desire to seek [5:30] collective approval, like the "standard [5:33] " items we mentioned, such as golf [5:35] clubs, right? [5:35] Like you mentioned, for example, [5:37] getting the same style as Jiang [5:39] Fangzhou. [5:40] This just means I don’t know who I am [5:42] . Right? I want to identify with Jiang [5:45] Fangzhou, as if by doing so I become [5:48] her, or to have some connection to her, [5:50] or as you said, to gain collective [5:52] approval. I think the internet has [5:54] certainly accelerated this aspect. [5:57] Because in the past, traditional media [5:59] like TV didn't build a single platform [6:02] like the internet does. Now everyone [6:04] shares this one platform, which has [6:07] likely intensified this phenomenon. But [6:09] as I listened to you, I kept wondering: [6:12] is there anyone around me—including [6:14] the many Gen-Z kids in my company—who [6:17] is actually in a difficult situation [6:19] because of this? Do they end up in a [6:21] terrible state? To be honest, the [6:23] evidence around me might point to [6:25] another truth; sometimes I feel like [6:27] the topics we discuss are just [6:29] pseudo-issues manufactured by the media [6:31] . [6:32] For example, the idea that every young [6:33] person is going broke. Right, that " [6:35] every young person is going broke" [6:37] narrative is quite sensationalist. It [6:39] feels like selling anxiety, doesn't it? [6:42] But is that really the case, or are [6:43] most people still living relatively [6:45] normal lives? [6:46] True, I think most of the kids at our [6:48] company share those common "post-90s" [6:50] traits—the burnout, the cynicism, and [6:52] so on. At the same time, they're much [6:53] more self-centered; they'll just up and [6:55] quit at the drop of a hat, which is [6:56] really different from what we were like [6:58] . But based on my assessment, I'd say [7:00] they're doing just fine, actually. [7:03] They're living well. But even for them, [7:05] I still think it's pretty tough. I'm [7:08] talking about the big cities we know, [7:10] like Beijing, Shanghai, and Guangzhou. [7:12] It's true, they’re earning maybe a [7:15] few thousand to ten thousand yuan. [7:17] Sometimes I feel for them—and of [7:18] course, this happens too—I've noticed [7:20] that young people, when it comes to [7:21] fitness...Running doesn't cost a dime, [7:23] but they insist on getting a gym [7:24] membership, and they have to get one. A [7:26] yearly membership. A young woman told [7:29] me the other day, why is it so [7:30] necessary to get this gym membership, [7:32] why do you have to go to a gym? Because [7:35] running isn't great for taking photos. [7:37] At the gym, people usually spend three [7:39] minutes working out and two hours [7:41] taking photos. I don't know if that's [7:43] true. [7:44] I have to look at this from another [7:46] perspective; the gym is definitely [7:47] different from working out on your own. [7:49] I have friends who used to work out [7:51] alone, but now they go to the gym [7:53] because there are trainers and plenty [7:54] of guidance there. Right, and if you [7:56] get a personal trainer, oh my god... [7:58] Of course, a trainer makes a difference [8:00] , but it really is different from just [8:01] working out by yourself. You can learn [8:03] anything now, but having someone teach [8:05] you is definitely a lot different than [8:07] trying to learn it on your own. There's [8:09] one thing—about what you said earlier [8:11] regarding the situation at your company [8:13] —it doesn't seem entirely the same [8:16] everywhere. I think it’s really tied [8:18] to the industry. I think young people [8:21] in your field, like psychological [8:23] counseling, are probably better off. I [8:25] think the ones who have it worse are... [8:28] I've seen those working in media, PR, [8:30] or certain industries that are [8:32] especially focused on fashion. That’s [8:35] the most tragic case. I know that kid [8:37] who bought a coat for over ten thousand [8:39] yuan. [8:40] Exactly, they have to frequent those [8:42] places. [8:42] Right, think about it—the industry [8:44] they work in. [8:45] And then, every day, the magazine [8:47] articles and official account posts [8:49] they write are all about how someone [8:51] went to some villa in the Seychelles, [8:54] costing over ten thousand dollars a [8:56] night, and so on. That’s all they see [8:58] every day. [8:59] The people around them only talk to [9:01] them about these things. I feel like [9:03] our sense of distance from this [9:05] so-called "high-end life" has vanished. [9:07] I was just thinking the other day about [9:09] why people today don't like reading [9:10] literature or realistic fiction. You [9:12] know, a big motivation for me reading [9:14] novels when I was young was [9:15] seeing how people lived in a high-class [9:17] way. [9:17] Watching how elegantly others lived. [9:20] When I was young, I liked reading "Life [9:21] to Life," thinking, "Oh, so this is how [9:23] they live in Wuhan." I even finished [9:25] Guo Jingming's "Tiny Times" trilogy and [9:28] read it twice. [9:28] Yes, I read it twice. [9:30] You just do it for... [9:32] That laughter from us, right? [9:34] Just to see how people in Shanghai [9:36] lived, what brands they used, but back [9:37] then you had to rely on your own mind [9:39] to fill in the gaps. Once you closed [9:41] the book, you went right back to your [9:42] own life. But now, that sense of [9:44] distance between you and a high-end [9:45] lifestyle has completely disappeared. [9:47] You don't need text, imagination, or [9:49] mental visualization anymore; you see [9:51] it all on the screen. And not only can [9:52] you see it, but you can click instantly [9:54] and obtain it immediately. Plus, you [9:56] know that Guo Jingming actually lived [9:58] that way. Right, but here I still have [10:00] to push back a bit. Look, those who [10:02] deal with high-end clients—well, I [10:04] don't know for sure. You see, it really [10:06] is high-end travel; the ones who go [10:08] there are mostly wealthy people. [10:09] But the young people around someone [10:11] like Director Lin, [10:11] their incomes are quite average. [10:13] Mm. What do you think they do? From my [10:16] observation, those young people don't [10:18] say, "I want to be with these people [10:20] and live their lives too." They might [10:22] earn around a hundred thousand a year [10:24] or so, right? But the people they serve [10:26] are different. Professor Wu, why is [10:28] that? Because if you work at a travel [10:30] agency, you are serving people. [10:32] You’re like an employee at a [10:34] five-star hotel. A private butler in a [10:36] super luxurious hotel wouldn't yearn to [10:39] be like the person they are serving. [10:41] Mm. [10:42] They don't try to compare themselves to [10:44] the ultra-wealthy, because my role is [10:46] to serve others. However, people who [10:48] run official accounts or work in media [10:50] are different; they have a certain [10:52] power. [10:53] Because today, they are the ones [10:54] telling others what "taste" is, what [10:56] kind of travel is the most high-end, [10:58] and what way of dressing is the most [11:00] tasteful. They define what kind of life [11:02] people like that lead. [11:04] Exactly, they even want to dictate [11:06] taste. In other words, they have the [11:08] authority to tell others what a "good [11:09] life" is, and you are expected to [11:11] follow their guidance, even though they [11:12] can't afford it themselves. They can't [11:14] afford it, yet they tell others what [11:16] they should wear this season. For [11:17] example, I often look at those young [11:19] girls in old fashion magazines, and I [11:21] feel so sorry for them, constantly [11:23] talking about the "five must-have bags [11:24] for every stylish woman this season." [11:26] They can't afford a single one of those [11:28] bags; it’s just so absurd. [11:30] So, I actually agree with Professor Wu [11:32] to some extent—that most people are [11:34] probably rational, and most people [11:35] really wouldn't buy things they can't [11:37] afford, right? However, [11:39] They might do it occasionally, but they [11:41] won't do it long-term. But the problem [11:43] is that these "standard requirements" [11:45] are very realistic. Don't just say [11:47] things that sound good; I saw that [11:49] survey. [11:50] Eighty percent of women have [11:52] requirements for a spouse, saying your [11:54] income cannot be lower than 5,000. [11:56] Uh, and most women say, "I want a man, [11:59] how are we going to get married?" They [12:01] demand a dowry and that you own a home. [12:04] Can you say they are wrong? With 996, [12:07] you just can't get it done. But then, [12:09] if the labor bureau comes and asks, " [12:10] Why did you make them work 996?" The [12:11] boss says, "I didn't make them work [12:13] 996." [12:14] My boss says, "I can finish this work [12:16] in five hours a day." How do you [12:19] measure my work task? How many hours a [12:22] day does it require? How do you [12:24] determine if the task I assigned [12:26] requires overtime to complete? [12:28] Or maybe they're just slow. Right? One [12:31] person finishes in eight hours, but [12:33] another needs fifteen. [12:34] There's really no way to define it. And [12:36] if you can't finish, they can just [12:37] replace you with someone willing to do [12:39] it, or someone who is more efficient [12:40] than you. So, naturally, they think, " [12:42] If I want to do this job well and keep [12:44] my livelihood, finding a job isn't easy [12:46] ." There is another issue, which is the [12:48] mobile phone. We are all online 24 [12:50] hours a day, actually... [12:52] This problem is actually even more [12:54] serious. [12:54] But the French know how to handle it; [12:55] they came up with something called the [12:57] "right to disconnect." [12:58] Yes. [12:59] It means that after I get off work, I [13:00] have the right not to be in contact [13:02] with my boss. [13:02] To lose contact. Don't send me...well, [13:05] not WeChat messages. Yes, if they [13:08] contact you, you can sue them. But that [13:10] isn't some sort of mandatory legal [13:13] regulation. [13:13] It's that you still need to find a [13:15] solution within the company. [13:17] But he spoke out, saying I have the [13:19] right to be unreachable. [13:21] Another thing is, take these employees [13:24] after they get off work—in Beijing or [13:26] any major Chinese city today—they [13:29] face a problem we rarely see elsewhere: [13:31] the commute time. We just saw them [13:35] lining up at 5:30; what’s going on [13:38] there? Actually, in a big city like [13:41] Beijing where all the tech companies [13:43] are, you could calculate it this way: [13:46] they work 996, but the time they [13:48] actually dedicate to the job is more [13:50] like 9-3 or 9-4. Because just the [13:54] commute alone takes, say, four hours a [13:56] day, so a situation has emerged where a [13:59] group of young people have gotten used [14:01] to "three-phase sleep"—they sleep in [14:03] their beds when they get home at night. [14:07] Two hours on the way to work, if you [14:10] take the bus or subway early and get a [14:12] seat without transferring much, you [14:14] sleep in segments then, and again on [14:17] the way home. The "three-phase sleep" [14:19] method has turned into this. [14:21] Strictly speaking, it's actually four [14:23] phases, and why is that? Because under [14:25] these conditions, they don't have much [14:27] energy left on Sundays to go out and [14:29] have fun. So, while they don't have to [14:32] go to work on Sundays, they’ve been [14:35] so drained of energy and spirit during [14:37] the week that they basically spend [14:39] their Sundays recovering from the work [14:41] that consumed their lives. I see some [14:45] young people, it's truly miserable. [14:48] Living in Tuen Mun, Hong Kong, even if [14:51] they don't work overtime and finish at [14:54] six, it's packed with people. Waiting [14:58] for five subway trains, watching out [15:00] for perverts, and then finally getting [15:03] home—what time is it? What time do [15:06] you get home? By the time you finish [15:08] dinner at nine or ten, you're [15:09] completely exhausted. Why not learn [15:11] from Brother Dong? [15:13] That's Liu Qiangdong. I saw how moving [15:16] it was when he said he slept on his [15:18] office floor. Even the boss himself, he [15:21] said these things... [15:23] Doing customer service, I've really [15:24] never seen this—doing customer [15:26] service and setting an alarm for every [15:28] two hours on the floor. When it went [15:30] off, he'd wake up and immediately reply [15:33] to customer queries. Brother Dong said, [15:36] "I'm 811..." 81168, do you know what [15:40] that means? [15:41] 8 a.m. to 11 p.m., six days in a row. [15:45] And the last "8" stands for working 8 [15:48] hours on Sunday. [15:49] Anyone who strives is my brother. I [15:52] heard a real-life story about a friend [15:54] of mine in Beijing who works at an [15:56] internet company. He explained why the [15:58] office is still full at midnight; it's [16:00] because these young people are all [16:02] sharing apartments, and the space they [16:04] go back to is actually very small. [16:06] And maybe there’s no air conditioning [16:07] or something—the conditions are just [16:08] very poor, so they don’t want to go [16:10] home. Sometimes, for this very reason, [16:12] they would rather just stay at the [16:13] office. [16:14] There’s another issue involved here, [16:15] because in major Chinese cities today [16:17] like Beijing, Shanghai, Guangzhou, and [16:19] Shenzhen, many young workers are [16:21] outsiders. They come from other places, [16:23] their homes aren't here, so they have [16:25] to find a place to settle down in [16:26] Beijing, which means renting is their [16:28] main option. If you’ve just entered [16:29] the workforce, you have no idea how [16:31] much money or how many years you’d [16:32] need to save to buy a house, right? So, [16:34] for renting, just think about it: when [16:35] someone starts at a company, their [16:37] salary is naturally going to be on the [16:38] lower side. They can't afford expensive [16:40] housing, and where are the expensive [16:41] areas? For example, inside the Third [16:43] Ring Road. They have the lowest salary, [16:45] live the furthest away, and spend the [16:47] most time on transit, so their daily [16:49] commute is longer than anyone else's. [16:51] Naturally, they end up being the most [16:53] exhausted. However, the usual excuse we [16:55] make for this situation is that if you [16:57] work hard for two years, you can [16:58] gradually move toward the Fourth Ring [17:00] Road, then the Fifth Ring Road, and [17:02] keep moving closer step by step. [17:04] That’s the language of the successful [17:06] . How many people work just like your " [17:09] Brother Dong," and what’s the result? [17:11] Death from overwork. [17:13] Dying at 33. 35. I don’t mean to [17:17] curse anyone, but honestly, this [17:20] actually confuses a systemic issue with [17:23] a matter of personal choice, right? [17:27] People sometimes intentionally think [17:29] only from their own perspective, but if [17:32] you actually stand in their shoes, you [17:34] can understand what everyone is saying. [17:37] For example, I know. I have some [17:40] friends who got rich, and their kids [17:42] are "second-generation rich." I feel [17:45] that, you know, many successful people [17:47] still hold the value that labor is [17:50] noble and workers are beautiful. [17:52] Right? That work is the value of life, [17:55] and a life without struggle is not [17:57] worth living. But I, I prefer to recall [18:00] what a Western philosopher said: "The [18:03] unexamined life is not worth living." [18:05] It means, have you ever thought about [18:07] how you really intend to spend your [18:09] life? You know, for instance, I have a [18:12] friend who succeeded through hard work [18:14] and lives a very good life. He’s [18:16] quite progressive with his son, who [18:18] lives in London. I was chatting with [18:20] his son and told him, "Your son is [18:22] scholar material; he’s an [18:24] intellectual." [18:25] Right. But he was worried. Because he [18:28] has an agreement with his son that he [18:30] shouldn’t rely on his father’s [18:31] wealth. Still, he’s anxious, saying, [18:33] "He wants to be a professor at a [18:35] British university. I’ve checked, and [18:37] professors don’t make much money." [18:39] I told him, "Being a professor is fine, [18:41] " but he asked, "Can he afford a big [18:44] house?""In London, can he live the kind [18:47] of life I do?" Exactly, he’s just [18:49] worried. [18:50] But you can’t stop his son from [18:53] wanting that. His son prefers to spend [18:55] his life as a professor rather than be [18:57] as rich as his father. So, what do you [19:00] say to that? [19:01] I’ve heard many wealthy people say [19:03] they hope their kids don't do anything [19:04] in the future but just have fun. Some [19:06] even say they shouldn’t go to school, [19:08] telling them, "My dream is for you not [19:10] to live like me, just go and have fun." [19:12] Yes, and on the other hand, this isn't [19:14] just an issue in China. Take Elon Musk, [19:16] who wants to go to Mars; didn't he say [19:18] something like that? He said no one can [19:21] change the world by working 40 hours a [19:23] week. But why is changing the world [19:25] considered such a righteous thing? [19:27] We really feel the same way about that, [19:29] I truly do. [19:30] I just feel that whenever he says it, [19:32] it implies that this kind of ambition [19:34] is righteous, like "I am right." But [19:35] what about the many people who don't [19:37] want to change the world, who just want [19:39] to live a quiet life? What I mean to [19:40] say is, and I’m not just speaking for [19:42] myself...I’ve seen a lot of young [19:44] people online, right? I really think [19:46] sometimes, when people like Musk say [19:48] they want to change the world...I [19:50] believe some bosses are sincere. [19:52] Whenever I try to learn how to make [19:53] money from them, they end up telling me [19:55] , "If you chase money, you won't make [19:57] the big bucks. We operate on passion, [19:59] and the money just follows." I’ve [20:02] been learning this; it’s not just me. [20:04] I even think this starting point is [20:05] genuine. I even think they are sincere, [20:08] right? Some bosses, some of the [20:10] wealthiest people—being the richest [20:12] isn't their life's purpose. They feel [20:14] that changing the way humans live or [20:16] changing a form of communication is [20:18] their greatest success and sense of [20:20] satisfaction. Right, that's fine, but [20:23] what if someone says, "My greatest [20:24] satisfaction in life comes from [20:26] finishing a day's work, having a couple [20:28] of drinks, watching some TV or American [20:30] dramas, and I’m perfectly happy [20:32] spending my whole life like this"— [20:34] that’s truly happy, right? But that [20:36] doesn't change the world, does it? But [20:38] I want to ask, am I being vulgar then? [20:40] Am I just [20:41] Of course not. Of course not, but what [20:44] you’re saying is true. For example, [20:47] look at the biographies like Steve Jobs [20:49] 'that are so popular in China now; if [20:51] you look closely, a significant number [20:54] of them—not all, though—these [20:56] stories of the wealthy, many of them, [20:58] especially early Silicon Valley [21:01] entrepreneurs, didn't actually intend [21:03] to get rich in the beginning. They were [21:06] just tinkering with things in their [21:08] garages because they genuinely enjoyed [21:10] it, finding it interesting, and the [21:12] potential to change things; getting [21:14] rich was a later development. [21:16] But they still had to hire many people [21:18] to actually get it done. At the start, [21:20] wasn't it just two or three people [21:21] working on it, doing things for nothing [21:23] ? [21:23] Of course, there’s no mystery to this [21:25] . If you have the ability to benefit [21:27] millions of people, then theoretically, [21:29] it would be unjust if you weren't [21:30] wealthy, right? If you benefit millions [21:33] , those millions will reward you, right [21:35] ? You couldn't avoid it even if you [21:37] wanted to. I once asked someone who [21:39] manages private wealth, someone who [21:41] deals with the wealthiest people. I [21:43] asked him, "Can you tell me what kind [21:45] of people they are, and what kind of [21:47] person is able to make that kind of [21:49] fortune?" He told me there are three [21:51] types: one is the entrepreneur who [21:53] truly invents and creates, like the [21:55] Steve Jobs you mentioned; or those who [21:57] inherit their wealth. [21:58] And the third type are the high-level [22:00] employees, perhaps at firms like [22:01] McKinsey or other companies, who have [22:03] risen to the very top. So I asked him, [22:05] "Do they have any secrets?" What kind [22:07] of person can earn that much money? He [22:09] said all three types are the same: it's [22:10] just luck. Lucky. [22:12] He said, "Think of how many people work [22:14] hard, how many people are like Steve [22:16] Jobs." He said, in the end, it’s just [22:18] luck, pure luck. [22:19] Of course you have to work hard, but [22:21] you need luck on top of that effort, he [22:23] said. [22:23] Of course, we Chinese have that old [22:26] saying: "Small wealth comes from [22:28] frugality, great wealth is ordained by [22:31] heaven." Eight words that sum it up, [22:35] but let's not forget what Jobs said [22:37] before he died: I spent too much time [22:40] working. [22:41] Right. I truly regret it; I should have [22:45] spent my main energy, time, and spirit [22:47] on being with my family and developing [22:50] my own spiritual insights. So, we talk [22:53] about Jobs becoming wealthy, becoming a [22:56] master, yet in the end, he was full of [22:58] regret. Moreover, in all these [23:01] discussions we've had, we've forgotten [23:03] two words—two very important words: [23:06] exploitation. Right. [23:08] So, as a system, the core of "996" is [23:11] essentially exploitation. If it's a [23:14] system like this, you can't exploit [23:16] people. You could let people choose— [23:19] whether they want to do 8118, it [23:21] doesn't matter. But you cannot force [23:23] people into 996, because it involves [23:26] exploitation. What’s so bad about [23:28] exploitation? It prevents a complete [23:30] person from being a complete person. [23:33] Basically, their life becomes just for [23:35] this work, and it's not even their own [23:37] work. It’s the alienation of someone [23:40] else’s work, right? You know the [23:43] ideal state of humanity we all talk [23:45] about: fishing in the morning, a little [23:47] drink in the afternoon, playing cards [23:50] at night, and then hanging out with the [23:52] wife—that's not a struggle for you? [23:55] No. [23:56] So, as I just said, I think it doesn't [23:58] matter; how many hours you want to work [24:01] is your own business. The problem is [24:03] you can't force me into 996. Right, [24:06] following up on that, I think the issue [24:08] isn't that simple. For example, if we [24:11] say, "No one should be forced to work a [24:13] certain way," right? Whether or not one [24:16] is willing to do 996 should be a matter [24:18] of personal choice, a freedom of [24:20] individual choice. That reasoning is [24:22] very sound. Mm. [24:24] But I have discovered that the [24:25] complexity of society is reflected in [24:27] the most profound human problems— [24:29] where are they reflected? They are [24:31] reflected in two experiences I had when [24:33] I first visited Paris, the Paris you [24:35] mentioned. [24:36] I feel it's not just a matter of [24:38] personal choice. Look, when I was [24:41] buying jeans in Paris, there really are [24:43] shopkeepers who don't care about making [24:46] money. They close at 5 o'clock, you [24:49] know? [24:50] I picked out a pair of jeans; I have to [24:52] try them on, right? When I finished [24:54] trying them on and walked to the [24:56] counter, their clock hit exactly five. [24:58] Mm. [24:59] At the checkout, I was holding my [25:01] credit card at the register. I'm sorry, [25:03] I couldn't understand the French, but [25:05] they were closing. [25:06] I said they just wouldn't sell it to me [25:08] , which was so frustrating. They closed [25:10] at 5 o'clock and told me to come back [25:12] tomorrow. That was one impression. What [25:14] was the second impression? We saw a [25:19] protest on the streets of Paris, and at [25:21] first, the translator said it was the [25:23] French workers protesting against [25:26] overtime. [25:28] But then he took a closer look at the [25:30] signs and told me something that [25:32] completely confused me. He said, "Oh, [25:34] actually, no." They weren't protesting [25:36] against being forced to work overtime. [25:38] They were protesting against the boss [25:40] allowing those who wanted to work [25:41] overtime to do so. Right. [25:43] Do you understand? It means I have the [25:45] freedom to choose, but this kind of [25:47] large-scale freedom of choice [25:48] eventually leads to a problem. [25:49] It's not... [25:50] Those who are willing to work overtime [25:52] earn more. [25:53] And I get left behind. [25:54] There's pressure. [25:56] There is. So, a profound issue now is [25:58] the disparity. What do we do about this [26:00] ? We both work at the same company. [26:03] Right, the boss says we should all rest [26:05] well, let's all get some good rest. [26:07] They also say, "Yes, yes, yes," but in [26:09] the end, they're still working at 11 [26:11] p.m. What would the boss think then? [26:13] Exactly, they'll think they're the ones [26:16] working hard. Right, so how do we [26:18] resolve this contradiction? [26:19] But I want to bring up another point: [26:21] this kind of exploitation is actually [26:23] more serious than we imagine. It's not [26:27] just that it creates health issues, [26:29] like not being able to sleep at night. [26:34] It's not just about that, is it? [26:37] There's a deeper problem. Human labor [26:40] —all employees are selling their own [26:42] labor to the boss to earn that salary [26:45] and get bonuses. Labor is not an [26:48] infinite resource. People aren't [26:50] machines; labor needs to be reproduced. [26:52] My own labor needs to be reproduced too [26:55] . How is labor reproduced? For example, [26:57] I need sufficient sleep, I need to eat, [26:59] and I need to rest. [27:00] Maybe if you look at Americans, they [27:02] might think renting is fine, right? [27:04] But in our country, it's very realistic [27:06] , isn't it? If a girl says to you, " [27:08] I'll marry you if you have a house," I [27:09] find that shocking. [27:10] Mm. [27:11] Shocking? [27:13] I'm okay. I have my own. You could [27:16] marry into a family with a house, right [27:18] ? Oh, well then you have an advantage, [27:21] right. [27:23] You have an advantage, but for a man [27:25] with low self-esteem, that advantage [27:27] either makes him a freeloader, or if he [27:29] doesn't want to be with you, it makes [27:31] him feel incredibly inferior and [27:33] resentful that you're better than him, [27:35] so that's not really an advantage. I [27:37] used to go out with this guy, and I was [27:39] the one paying every time, even when we [27:42] ate somewhere expensive, and he’d [27:44] brag, "Look how different I am from [27:46] other Chinese men; I believe in [27:48] equality," so every time... [27:50] That’s great. [27:51] After a year of that, I started to feel [27:53] like something wasn't quite right. [27:54] You see, you’re an independent, [27:56] self-reliant, and self-loving woman, [27:57] right? Meaning you don't really care [27:59] about the other person's income. One [28:01] day, a girl said something to me that [28:03] really resonated—she said we work so [28:05] hard just so that one day, when we [28:06] choose someone, we don't have to [28:08] consider their so-called conditions. [28:10] By doing that, you're actually [28:12] unlocking yourself from a set of [28:14] shackles, you know? Sometimes, when you [28:16] overthink things, you’re actually [28:17] just adding more and more shackles to [28:19] yourself, and those are shackles you [28:21] have to remove on your own. So, this [28:23] touches on your personal perspective [28:25] versus cultural perceptions; that’s [28:27] basically what all research on marriage [28:30] and dating says. [28:31] Two types of people have the hardest [28:32] time finding a partner: highly [28:33] accomplished women like you, and men at [28:35] the lower end of the socioeconomic [28:37] spectrum. [28:37] Their difficulty lies in having too [28:39] many options. [28:40] Right. They can never seem to settle [28:43] down. [28:43] Because their situation is different; [28:45] they might have money, charm, and all [28:47] sorts of things, making them unique, [28:49] but statistically speaking, there has [28:50] always been a social expectation that [28:52] men should be slightly "higher" than [28:54] women. Many past studies have shown [28:56] that the male standard is three times [28:58] higher than the female one, which is [29:00] relatively stable. At this point, you [29:02] can see these expectations and many [29:04] things are changing; that's why I think [29:07] the question we were discussing is: [29:09] amidst all these social expectations, [29:12] these so-called standard and premium [29:14] requirements, can your true self still [29:16] find its place? Doesn't this, to some [29:20] extent, also show that our lives are [29:22] getting better and better? [29:24] Right? At the same time, look, our [29:26] parents wouldn't have even dared to [29:28] imagine these things; even if you say [29:29] these "standards" or the pressure on [29:31] young people is high, at least you have [29:32] the clothes and the things to use. [29:34] Yeah, exactly. Right, it's like the [29:36] economy is developing, but with this [29:39] economic growth, haven't our souls been [29:41] left behind? That's it, so I think we [29:43] need to study psychological issues. [29:45] Truly, I feel that in today's world, [29:47] there are two important fields: [29:49] philosophy and psychology. It's just [29:52] like "the unexamined life is not worth [29:54] living." You have to study so many [29:56] things; if you don't examine or study [29:59] them, [29:59] you’re just a pitiful person who gets [30:02] deceived, manipulated, hypnotized, and [30:04] bamboozled. For example, let me tell [30:07] you about an experiment. A foreign [30:09] professor—I forget his name— [30:11] conducted a study with over 100 [30:14] students. He started by giving some [30:16] students a low evaluation, telling them [30:19] their test scores were terrible. It was [30:21] a mock test, essentially, where he told [30:24] them their scores were very poor. [30:26] Then, he showed them a photo taken by a [30:29] photographer and asked if they would [30:31] like to purchase it. In the end, it [30:34] turned out that the students who [30:36] received the low evaluation—those [30:38] told their scores were poor—had a [30:40] much higher desire to buy the photo [30:42] than...... [30:43] those who were told they did well on [30:45] the test. [30:46] So, you see, this experiment shows that [30:49] when people encounter setbacks or [30:51] failure, [30:52] they are actually more prone to buying [30:55] things. [30:55] Just like what you mentioned earlier— [30:57] that fundamental point—when a person [30:59] receives a good self-evaluation, their [31:01] desire to possess "high-end" conditions [31:03] decreases because they feel recognized [31:06] within their relationships. [31:07] On the other hand, when someone has a [31:09] very low self-evaluation, they want to [31:10] latch onto those high-end conditions. [31:12] Mm-hmm. [31:13] They think, "Look, if I’m connected [31:15] to that thing, my sense of self becomes [31:17] better." That’s why, if Chinese [31:19] parents want their children not to [31:20] constantly chase a "high-spec" [31:22] lifestyle, they need to realize that [31:24] the best "high-spec" is love. We often [31:26] say love is abstract. I remember during [31:29] one Spring Festival Gala, there were [31:31] some children singing and dancing. They [31:33] said, "Love is praising me, love is [31:35] hugging me, love is this and that." You [31:38] see, if parents hug their children more [31:40] , praise them more, and give them more [31:42] validation, those children will have [31:44] attained a truly high-spec life. So you [31:46] mean it’s not a lack of money, but a [31:49] lack of love? [31:50] But I think there's another point, [31:52] which is the lack of happiness. I [31:54] really understand what Mr. Wen just [31:56] said, that the moment of purchase might [31:59] truly be the only happy moment in their [32:01] day. Think about it, after a 996 shift, [32:04] that's the highlight of their day. [32:06] Right, and that's because they can't [32:08] find a sense of meaning or joy in their [32:10] work. Another point is why many in the [32:13] older generation feel young people buy [32:16] "useless" things instead of necessities [32:18] like houses or cars; it's simply [32:20] because they really can't afford them. [32:23] Take a girl who buys five lipsticks a [32:26] month for 1,500 yuan. That 1,500 yuan [32:28] brings her immense joy, but 1,500 yuan [32:31] is still a long way from buying a house [32:34] . So, on that level, I can understand [32:36] their perspective. [32:37] It’s like how I think I’m much more [32:39] generous than many of my business owner [32:41] friends. [32:42] Yeah. [32:43] Or rather, I’m much more spendthrift, [32:45] simply because I can't afford those [32:47] villas they have anyway, you know? We [32:49] just buy a couple of clothes. Speaking [32:52] of which, I really feel like I have an [32:54] addiction lately; I need to quit, I [32:56] really do. But from it, you can [32:58] experience the pleasure of consumption, [33:00] the desire to consume. For example, I [33:03] buy clothes from this small brand—not [33:06] some world-famous label—they aren't [33:08] too expensive, but buying a lot of them [33:11] adds up. [33:13] What I really love about this brand is [33:15] their textiles. [33:19] The texture of the cotton and linen, [33:21] and the way it feels against my skin, [33:24] you know? And it’s reached a point [33:27] where I have to visit the store every [33:29] time I return to Hong Kong. Oh my, [33:31] I’ll go no matter how busy I am. I [33:33] stand in their shop, and last night in [33:36] bed, I realized I’d bought a whole [33:38] bed's worth of stuff, but what I really [33:40] wanted was just this cotton and linen. [33:42] They just make them into different [33:45] styles, and then, [33:46] Oh, you know I really get that feeling. [33:49] Every time I buy something, I feel like [33:52] I've eaten a piece of bread—I just [33:54] feel so satisfied. Really? Sometimes [33:58] when a show doesn't go well and I'm [34:00] unhappy, or I've had some [34:01] unpleasantness with someone, I just [34:03] head over there. [34:05] And when I come back, I feel like I'm [34:07] bathed in that scent of pure cotton and [34:10] linen. [34:10] Do you know what you're saying? You're [34:12] silently setting yourself up to be [34:14] psychoanalyzed again. [34:16] Alright, let's analyze this. You're [34:18] talking about a mother's embrace. [34:20] Oh, moth- [34:22] You see, that soft, linen-like feeling [34:24] is exactly what you're searching for. [34:26] Lacking maternal love. [34:27] Lacking the touch, lacking the touch. [34:30] Seriously, seriously, just let it be. [34:33] You really should contribute more. [34:36] We'll just take turns touching you [34:38] later. [34:38] What he said—oh, thank you, your [34:41] analysis is really excellent. You know, [34:44] a while back in Beijing, there was an [34:47] exhibition by a very famous Western [34:49] lady named Bourgeois. Yes, you’ll [34:51] notice that many of her themes are [34:54] related to motherhood, and notice the [34:56] materials she uses. [34:58] They are all those scraps, or old [35:00] bedsheets and old sofa fabrics from [35:03] around the house, which she stitches [35:05] together with fine needlework. The [35:07] texture of these materials reminds you [35:10] of home, of maternal love, and of a [35:12] mother. It also reminds me of a word in [35:15] English. Some people keep this habit [35:17] even into adulthood. Can you help me [35:20] think of what that word is? It's just [35:22] something from their childhood, maybe a [35:24] piece of cloth from their mom, or a [35:26] small towel—what's that thing called? [35:28] Anyway, there’s a word for it in [35:29] English. Many foreign adults have them. [35:32] They carry a small blanket with them. [35:34] No, I mean, they still do it every [35:35] night when they sleep. [35:36] They have to grab and touch that piece [35:38] of cloth. That’s called a comfort [35:39] object. [35:40] Yes, exactly! So, so, so, this is what [35:43] we are…what we are pointing out here. [35:45] You see, [35:46] None of these things cost much money. [35:49] Even though you feel like this clothing [35:51] or this item is already a bit expensive [35:53] , if you’re truly looking for this, [35:55] then you see, these are actually [35:57] extensions of the mother or extensions [35:59] of maternal love. Why do we call them [36:01] comfort objects? There is another term [36:04] called a "transitional object." To put [36:06] it plainly, it acts as a symbol of the [36:08] mother. When some children are very [36:09] young, they might share a small pillow [36:11] with their mom, or have a small blanket [36:13] they share with her. That small blanket [36:15] is understood by the child as being the [36:17] mother. [36:18] Since the child can't control the [36:19] mother—she has to go on business [36:21] trips or go to work—they can control [36:22] that small piece of cloth, saying, "I [36:24] am with Mom," as a substitute. [36:25] Yes, that’s it. That’s why many [36:27] things are extensions like this. [36:29] You are a psychologist. I previously [36:31] thought I was just addicted to consumer [36:33] desires. [36:33] Oh, so it turns out you were just [36:34] searching for maternal love. [36:36] Lacking touch. Consumption is truly a [36:39] significant matter. For instance, a [36:42] classic political philosophy book was [36:44] recently translated into Chinese. It [36:48] discusses a concept called "possessive [36:51] individualism," which suggests that [36:53] decades ago, it was said that modern [36:55] people are "possessive individuals." [36:59] This means: what do we modern people [37:02] use to prove and define our existence [37:05] today? It is determined by how many [37:07] things I have and how many things I [37:10] possess. The things I own also explain [37:13] who I am. Building on this to discuss [37:16] modern society, some people have [37:18] expanded upon it and modified Descartes [37:21] ' famous quote, right? "I think, [37:23] therefore I am." But now many people [37:26] say it's not that; it's "I shop, [37:29] therefore I am." [37:30] Because I need to use the things I buy [37:32] to explain exactly what kind of person [37:35] I am. Building on that—and I've heard [37:38] what was said—I’d like to add a [37:40] point following Professor Duo's remarks [37:42] . You see, Professor Duo, anything that [37:45] genuinely relates to people and love is [37:47] usually not that expensive. But what is [37:50] the most expensive thing? Look, when we [37:52] talk about your connection with your [37:54] mother, you’re searching for a [37:56] blanket, searching for this, searching [37:58] for objects, because you just mentioned [38:00] that ambiguous thing: the bed. You see, [38:02] when you cover your bed with clothes [38:04] and lie there, you feel especially [38:06] satisfied. [38:07] Let me share this with you, Professor [38:09] Wu: I have a habit where I can't get [38:11] out of bed immediately every morning. [38:13] When I wake up, I have to linger for a [38:16] while; I feel like the day can only [38:18] start then. While lingering, I have to [38:21] hug the quilt to get my fill. Is this [38:24] also a sign of lacking love? At this [38:28] moment, we wonder whether you are a [38:31] normal person [38:33] or actually just that infant longing [38:35] for its mother. [38:36] So you mean that a person filled with [38:38] love in their heart will not engage in [38:40] high consumption? [38:41] I’ll make a small inference here. [38:44] There is a psychological term called " [38:46] regression." What is regression? It [38:49] means, for example, if we imagine human [38:51] psychological development has stages [38:53] one, two, three, four, and five. The [38:54] higher the stage, the more difficult [38:56] the challenges. The lower the stage, [38:58] the easier it is to obtain satisfaction [39:00] . When you face setbacks at a high [39:02] stage, you want to regress to a place [39:03] where you once found satisfaction to [39:05] seek some fulfillment. For you, even [39:07] though you have high emotional [39:09] intelligence, you still face setbacks [39:11] at work. When you encounter failures at [39:13] a high level, you return to your [39:15] mother’s arms to seek comfort and [39:16] find satisfaction. Basically, whenever [39:18] you form a relationship with someone, [39:20] you can see that this is what you’re [39:22] looking for. But what is the worst [39:24] thing? It’s omnipotent narcissism. [39:27] It’s like what we mentioned earlier: [39:29] before an infant forms a bond with [39:30] their mother, everyone has something to [39:32] satisfy themselves with—a sense of [39:34] omnipotence, or omnipotent narcissism. [39:36] Omnipotent narcissism. [39:38] Yes, omnipotent narcissism means "I am [39:40] God,""I am the best." You see, things [39:42] like wanting to be a king, being number [39:44] one, or needing everything to be [39:46] perfect are all related to this. It [39:48] means that when you aren't fulfilled in [39:50] your relationship with your mother or [39:52] your primary caregiver. You regress, [39:54] you retreat to this state. [39:56] Are you saying, for example, when a [39:58] baby is a few months old? [39:59] Babies feel like the whole world at [40:01] birth. [40:02] Right, they are the world’s number [40:04] one, or they are the world’s god. So [40:06] everyone can find satisfaction in [40:07] omnipotent narcissism, therefore... [40:09] Then what is the mother to them? In [40:11] their world... [40:12] The mother is just a part of them. I am [40:14] the mother, and the mother is me; there [40:16] are no boundaries. I’ve heard that [40:18] babies a few months old actually [40:20] can’t distinguish between "self" and [40:22] "other." [40:22] They can't even perceive the boundaries [40:24] of their own body. [40:25] Exactly. So, they use this omnipotent [40:27] narcissism to manifest many things, [40:29] leading to a need for perfection—they [40:31] must possess the very best things. This [40:33] is where the serious consumerism we [40:34] mentioned earlier might stem from, or [40:36] out-of-control consumption. For [40:38] instance, we all know we live in a [40:40] consumer society, but some people are [40:42] completely out of control, always [40:43] chasing things they simply cannot [40:45] afford. [40:46] In reality, they are seeking that [40:48] primal, omnipotent satisfaction. See, I [40:50] can own the best things, and use that [40:53] to prove that I am the best. [40:55] But this is a lonely game. However, [40:57] once they are able to gain a certain [40:59] level of satisfaction in relationships, [41:01] perhaps like you looking for a blanket [41:02] or something similar. [41:03] How miserable. [41:05] I should have prepared more pieces of [41:07] cloth when I was young; they were very [41:09] cheap, indeed. [41:10] But I think everyone’s comfort object [41:11] is different. Like, for me, when I... [41:14] Be careful, you keep talking about your [41:15] comfort objects, later this will... [41:17] No, no, it's just that I go to a [41:18] certain brand. I, I go to a brand, and [41:21] I just go touch one of their jackets [41:23] that's worth 168,000. When I was in [41:25] college, whenever I was in a bad mood, [41:27] I would go touch that jacket, and I [41:29] would get huge satisfaction. So I, so I [41:31] just said this, it's something I can [41:33] never afford, so I think the way you [41:35] define a poor person, sometimes it's [41:38] not about your income level, but when [41:40] your desires exceed your earnings, you [41:43] are actually a poor person. There's one [41:45] more thing, if I analyze you, it might [41:47] not go well, let's talk about something [41:50] else. [41:50] Let's analyze Wendao. [41:52] That is, when we haven't reached a 60- [41:55] point satisfaction level, when our [41:57] basic needs aren't met, we try to seek [41:59] perfection, to get 100 points. [42:01] But when it's just wanting 100 points. [42:03] He, in fact, actually works quite long [42:05] overtime hours too. [42:06] Yes. [42:07] Hmm, right. [42:09] How does Boss Liang see this? [42:11] It's very normal. [42:12] Now that you're a boss. Their company [42:14] does 996, I'm not opposing it. No, it's [42:17] because of this, because in our small [42:20] company, we actually don't require 996, [42:23] we don't even say that; we follow [42:25] normal working hours for everyone. But [42:30] most employees are quite hardworking [42:33] and voluntarily do 996, or even 7/11, [42:36] at work. Hey. [42:38] This just goes to show that where you [42:40] sit determines where you stand, you [42:42] know? Some people praise Huawei, saying [42:45] if anyone is qualified to demand [42:47] overtime, it's Huawei, why? They say [42:50] Ren Zhengfei... [42:51] The founder's own shares might only be [42:54] 1%, with 99%belonging to the employees, [42:57] which means we are all striving [43:00] together, so overtime is understandable [43:02] . Do you agree? [43:04] Oh, if that's the case, I think so too. [43:07] That means his employees feel that [43:08] their contributions lead to rewards. [43:10] But in many other companies, it's like [43:12] I'm burning myself out for the boss's [43:14] ambition, dream, or whatever, and they [43:15] might feel there's no, no...they feel [43:17] there's no reason for it. I think you [43:19] need to round this out, like, what can [43:21] they actually get? It's actually quite [43:23] realistic. I only learned about [43:25] something called OT when I got to Hong [43:27] Kong, meaning you... [43:28] It’s overtime, right? Outside of your [43:31] regular working hours. When I first [43:33] came to Hong Kong, I realized those [43:34] hours could either be given back as [43:36] time off or paid out, which I thought [43:38] was quite reasonable. Actually, [43:39] legislation in Hong Kong isn't fully [43:42] complete in this regard. Take the [43:44] minimum wage law, for instance—it [43:46] only started a few years ago. There’s [43:50] been ongoing talk about setting maximum [43:52] working hours, like in many other parts [43:54] of the world, where you can’t make [43:56] employees work over a certain number of [43:59] hours per week. But that law doesn't [44:02] exist yet; it hasn't been set. But [44:04] actually, we have a Labor Law in the [44:07] Mainland with specific regulations. [44:09] Could you trace that history for us? [44:12] Yijun, I’ve experienced it all. Back [44:17] in the 1980s, we initially worked six [44:20] days a week, right? [44:23] Later on, I think it was '94, that’s [44:26] when it started—the "big week, small [44:29] week" system, do you remember? A "big [44:31] week" meant working five days, and a " [44:33] small week" meant working six. Then, in [44:35] '95, it became the two-day weekend. We [44:38] rested. [44:39] At that time, they were saying we [44:40] should find ways to improve labor [44:42] efficiency. [44:43] And by letting employees rest more, it [44:45] could also promote the...... [44:47] tertiary sector. But today, this issue [44:50] has become so heated again. Actually, [44:52] to my mind, what was being discussed a [44:54] while ago was mainly......some [44:56] successful individuals...... [44:57] or internet moguls, if you will. [45:00] They talk about "striving," right? Some [45:03] people, even if they wanted to work 996 [45:05] , they couldn't, right? The idea is [45:08] that 996 is the "glory of the striver," [45:10] or something to that effect. Naturally, [45:13] a lot of people started pushing back. [45:16] Take a programmer, for example, who [45:18] says, "I'd rather not marry, not have [45:20] kids, and not buy a house...""... [45:23] than work myself to death at my desk. I [45:26] don't want 996." [45:28] Hmm, but I’ve found that it really [45:29] depends on the industry. Just talking [45:31] about the internet sector...Take, for [45:33] example, what you just said about us [45:34] unscrupulous types. [45:35] Unscrupulous boss, good boss, [45:37] unscrupulous boss. [45:39] We started out in publishing, for [45:41] instance. There was no such concept as [45:43] 996 there; publishing was quite normal. [45:45] Of course, sometimes you’re rushing a [45:47] manuscript, like reading proofs, so [45:49] it’s hard to define if that falls [45:50] under work scope. For example, editors [45:52] in publishing houses are usually people [45:54] who genuinely love to read. So, after [45:56] they get off work, if they’re reading [45:58] some books, are they actually working, [46:01] or are they preparing for future [46:02] projects? That is very hard to clearly [46:05] distinguish. Basically, you won't see [46:07] many people staying in the office to [46:10] work overtime after hours. Well, later [46:12] we started making video programs. Later [46:15] on, for example, when we started making [46:17] this app and really became [46:19] internet-oriented, the situation [46:21] changed. I could see the kids in our [46:23] design department—I remember telling [46:26] them, "Don't work too hard." I told [46:28] them, "You must give yourselves enough [46:30] rest, give yourselves extra time to [46:33] visit exhibitions, browse through [46:35] things, and see all kinds of stuff." [46:37] My tasks must be finished on time. [46:40] I didn't say that, or rather, I'd ask [46:43] if they could handle it, and they'd say [46:46] yes. Then I realized they were often [46:48] working until 10 or 11 at night, and I [46:51] wondered why. I later discovered it was [46:54] really a limitation of the industry [46:56] itself; the sense of time in publishing [46:59] is completely different from internet [47:01] time. On the internet, your daily [47:04] updates and daily maintenance are done [47:07] 24 hours a day. It's a bit like us, [47:10] people in traditional media—do you [47:12] remember when we used to do newspapers [47:15] in Hong Kong, for instance, once the [47:17] final edition was signed off? [47:19] Then it was sent to the printing press, [47:21] and everyone could rest, right? Then [47:23] we'd go out for a late-night snack. But [47:25] when all your news sites are running 24 [47:27] hours a day, there's no such thing as [47:29] getting off work anymore. [47:31] There is. Actually, everyone has shifts [47:33] ; only the editor-in-chief can't get [47:35] off work. Exactly, so it becomes, [47:37] secondly, I think it's the competition [47:40] in the whole environment. When everyone [47:42] else can manage to post something at a [47:44] specific time every day, if you don't [47:47] follow suit, people will ignore you and [47:49] stop watching you. The competition in [47:52] the industry has reached this level. [47:55] But as a system, you can't have a 996 [47:59] policy. If it's a work requirement, as [48:02] Wendao mentioned regarding the needs of [48:04] the job or the internet, fine. You can [48:07] make appropriate arrangements as an [48:09] employer. [48:10] Right. [48:11] I just want to ask, do you pay overtime [48:13] ? [48:13] Exactly, it's not just overtime pay. [48:15] It's also about having more staff. More [48:17] staff. Let me give an example unrelated [48:19] to the internet industry. [48:20] I personally participated in [48:22] discussions on this, or rather, what [48:24] was it? In Hong Kong, until three years [48:27] ago, security guards only worked in two [48:30] shifts. [48:32] Two shifts. [48:34] Then the government intervened, the [48:37] Labour Department stepped in, and they [48:39] pushed for changes, saying it wasn't [48:41] humane and was too exhausting. Finally, [48:44] we need to add resources and switch to [48:46] three eight-hour shifts. Alright, those [48:49] are the two sides. Then you hold a [48:51] meeting to discuss it; you can easily [48:54] come up with arguments like "we need [48:56] this" or "it has benefits." Why would [48:59] they agree? Because the longer I work [49:01] as a security guard, the more I develop [49:03] a connection with the residents living [49:05] there. I have feelings for them and I [49:07] can manage the situation. [49:09] And this is a necessity for the [49:10] industry; it’s actually good for the [49:12] clients, so that’s how it is. But if [49:14] you stand from the worker's perspective [49:16] , even if you pay them extra, they're [49:18] still exhausted. You're stripping away [49:20] their personal lives, so that's not [49:22] okay. So if you insist that industry [49:25] competition requires this or that, I [49:27] feel the employers absolutely need to [49:30] invest the resources. I don't think [49:32] this is just a legal issue. Even those [49:35] bosses who claim there's no controversy [49:38] say, "We would never force anyone into [49:41] 996," right? That violates labor laws. [49:46] However, the eighth national survey by [49:48] the All-China Federation of Trade [49:50] Unions found that this phenomenon is [49:53] relatively common. Over 20 percent work [49:57] more than 48 hours, and 44 percent of [50:00] those surveyed reported not receiving [50:03] full overtime pay. But, you know, I [50:06] think modern society has a major [50:09] problem: everyone is just too practical [50:12] . [50:12] Bosses would rather have you talk than [50:14] work, right? Don't people love to talk [50:17] about "skills" and "techniques"? [50:19] But in my opinion, the problem lies [50:21] right in that "talk." [50:22] People are influenced by linguistic [50:24] cues. [50:24] By discourse, I mean. [50:26] Sometimes I have to be especially [50:28] vigilant about my own industry, [50:30] including the internet; it’s [50:31] constantly manufacturing terms. And [50:33] these terms guide and exacerbate things [50:36] . Is there "involution"? Perhaps. But [50:39] once it becomes a big issue, you hear [50:41] more and more people saying, "Oh, I'm [50:43] involuting.""I'm involuting, I'm [50:44] involuting," and then it starts to [50:46] influence your choices. For example, [50:48] are there people "lying flat"? There [50:50] are always some who lie flat, but I've [50:51] seen even more young people working [50:53] hard, not lying flat at all. But when [50:55] this trend comes along, it makes you [50:57] forget—as they say in Beijing dialect [50:59] —what you originally were. So, I [51:00] truly believe that what people need is [51:02] an independent personality and free [51:04] thinking. You have such a courageous [51:07] soul; you really are a free spirit. [51:09] Sometimes I just wonder, why do you let [51:11] yourselves be led by these online [51:13] trends? Why do you feel the need to [51:15] discuss them? You have your own [51:17] concerns, and I want to make a [51:18] documentary. Then I will make a [51:20] documentary. Right? Unmoved by worldly [51:23] distractions. I think some people are [51:26] too easily swayed by these buzzwords. [51:28] Maybe it's also a matter of context. I [51:31] saw a host talking about "lying flat." [51:35] He said in that segment that you can be [51:37] resigned to your fate, but you can't [51:39] lie flat. Resigned to your fate. As [51:42] soon as I saw it, I replied to that. I [51:44] said you can lie flat, but you [51:45] shouldn't be resigned to your fate. [51:47] Right? Compared to resignation, lying [51:50] flat is better. Lying flat is physical, [51:52] while resignation is psychological. [51:54] Right? How can one be resigned to their [51:57] fate? There’s another term I find [51:59] very confusing. It’s been appearing [52:01] very frequently lately; some articles [52:03] use this one word from beginning to end [52:04] . It’s called "setting the rhythm." [52:07] Yes, yes, yes. Oh my, they call every [52:09] kind of opinion "setting the rhythm" [52:11] from start to finish. [52:12] So, for us old men who like to dress up [52:15] , what kind of "rhythm" is this? [52:17] What kind of "rhythm" is this? Just now [52:20] , this... [52:21] Ma... [52:22] Ma Jia-Hui said a word, and I think... [52:25] It’s very important: being "decent." [52:28] Let me translate that idea of decency. [52:31] Actually, when it comes to dressing, [52:34] cleanliness is truly very important. [52:38] Hmm. [52:39] And of course, if you have the means to [52:42] dress appropriately, that’s a big [52:44] step up. That is even more decent. [52:48] After a few more steps, dressing [52:50] becomes about amusing yourself. [52:52] Hmm. [52:54] I think this isn't about dressing for [52:57] others; you don't care what they think. [53:01] You might even laugh if you happen to [53:03] see yourself in the mirror and look [53:05] funny. [53:08] So, I had an experience in Tokyo. I [53:13] like shopping, so I passed by that [53:15] Comme des Garçons store. I saw a pair [53:21] of traditional tennis shoes, the kind [53:23] we had when we were young, but the toe [53:25] was stretched out about this long. I [53:30] thought, these are too ridiculous, who [53:32] would buy these? I just thought, surely [53:36] no one could possibly like this design. [53:40] In the afternoon, at an architects ' [53:43] meeting, a Japanese architect was [53:45] wearing them. His feet were swinging as [53:48] he walked, but he looked completely [53:50] serious. Of course, I...I actually [53:53] thought... [53:54] Extremely uncoordinated. [53:56] As an observer, I thought it seemed [53:58] wrong, but it had nothing to do with me [54:00] . He felt great about himself. [54:02] So I need to learn this. I need to [54:05] learn this. I realized, Teacher Zhang, [54:07] you need to use this set of pictures to [54:10] explain it to us. I really love [54:11] listening to him talk about this. You [54:14] ... [54:14] I will explain this very quickly. [54:17] First of all, it has a lot to do with [54:19] those photos, yeah. [54:20] So, I look at all kinds of photos and [54:22] portraits, people wearing clothes. [54:24] So this one, this is a representative [54:26] one. I don't feel like judging whether [54:28] his clothes look good or bad, because I [54:30] don't know either. But I know these are [54:33] his clothes; this isn't cosplay. Today, [54:35] too many people are wearing clothes as [54:38] cosplay. [54:38] Ah. [54:39] So, people back then were just like [54:41] this. [54:42] You think the difference between [54:43] cosplay and this is that these are his [54:44] own clothes, whereas in cosplay, the [54:46] clothes aren't really yours. [54:47] Exactly. Are you saying you have a bit [54:49] of an opinion on cosplay? [54:50] It's just for fun; it's not, you know [54:52] ... [54:52] Oh, it’s not natural. [54:54] It’s not natural, look here. [54:56] This, this. [54:57] Zhang Zhong... [54:58] Zhang Zizhong, well, his appearance is [55:01] one thing. Look at his collar back then [55:03] . [55:04] The way it's worn. [55:05] Doesn't that count as a Zhongshan suit? [55:07] Uh, it should, but the Zhongshan suit [55:08] basically came from European military [55:10] uniforms. And it might even be [55:11] German-style military uniforms. [55:13] But it also seems quite similar to the [55:15] small stand-up collar worn by the Qing [55:16] emperors. Oh, the stand-up collar we [55:18] have in China now is actually the same [55:20] thing. [55:21] So let's keep looking, look. [55:23] This one later started wearing an [55:24] American-style military uniform. [55:25] Ah. [55:26] This is my uncle. [55:28] Oh, your uncle? [55:29] He joined up to become a pilot and went [55:31] to fight the Japanese devils. [55:32] Hey, is it really, is your father in [55:34] there? [55:34] Yes, yes. [55:36] His father was the famous architect [55:38] Zhang Kaiji. Buildings like the Museum [55:39] of the Chinese Revolution and those on [55:41] Tiananmen Square were all by Mr. Zhang [55:42] Kaiji. [55:43] The Ten Great Buildings. [55:44] Designed the Ten Great Buildings. It's [55:46] the Diaoyutai State Guesthouse. [55:48] Oh, and the reviewing stand on [55:50] Tiananmen Square, right. [55:52] This set of old photos is by a German [55:54] photographer, I think his name is [55:57] Sander, August Sander. [55:59] Uh, his main work was in the interwar [56:02] period. Why? Because too many people [56:06] had died. So he had to count how many [56:08] people were left in the city and take [56:10] identification photos for them. Oh. [56:12] He recorded these people one by one. [56:17] Among them, like this photo, I know [56:20] Yohji Yamamoto said he liked Sander, [56:22] and actually, the one he liked most, [56:25] specifically, was this one. [56:28] And what was this person's identity? [56:30] A Gypsy. [56:32] Just someone on the streets of Germany. [56:34] Yes, he was a Gypsy, a wanderer. [56:37] That person there might be middle class [56:40] . And let's look at this person, why [56:42] show everyone an architect? [56:44] Oh. [56:45] That’s how it was back then, around [56:48] the 1920s. [56:48] Alright, these photos actually, of [56:50] course, date back to my father’s time [56:52] . [56:52] Is this your father and you? [56:54] And my brother. [56:55] And your brother. [56:56] He's Zhang Kaiji. [56:58] Yes, my father is wearing this outfit [56:59] here. [57:00] Which years? [57:01] I'd guess the 60s, early 60s. Is this [57:05] standard blazer actually something worn [57:08] in the drafting room? Like you painters [57:12] , don't you also have a long... [57:15] A long, what do you call it? Kind of [57:18] like a work uniform. [57:19] A lab coat, right? This collar is a bit [57:22] like the one you're wearing today. [57:24] It has a legacy. [57:26] So, they say—my father is no longer [57:28] with us—this piece might have been [57:30] his own modification. It wasn't a [57:32] brand-new design; architects of that [57:34] era had their own standards. [57:36] Yes, my dad, he was from Hangzhou and [57:38] came to Beijing from Shanghai. [57:40] He was actually experimenting with that [57:42] style of clothing. [57:43] Back then, did people find it strange [57:45] to wear that on the streets of Beijing? [57:46] I don't know, I was too young. We [57:49] didn't find it strange because that’s [57:51] just how he was, and when you see this, [57:53] it’s basically what the weekend [57:54] looked like. [57:55] Ah. [57:56] The material of this garment is, I [57:59] suspect, similar to what I'm wearing [58:01] today. [58:01] Just like yours, the top button is [58:03] buttoned. You have to respect the [58:07] garment, because most people aren't [58:09] really suited to wearing clothes that [58:11] loosely. [58:13] Ah. [58:15] Unless you’re an Italian hunk, then [58:17] you can just button it here. [58:20] And nearly show your belly. [58:23] Besides, when clothes are designed, [58:25] they generally hope you wear them [58:27] properly. [58:28] Respect the garment when looking at it. [58:30] It looks so good. This is what [58:32] old-school men do—they keep it [58:34] buttoned. In fact, when you stand up, [58:37] you must button it, and when you sit [58:39] down, it needs to be comfortable, so [58:41] you unbutton it. [58:42] So that is a gesture a man should make [58:45] upon standing up. [58:46] Right, right. Wearing a suit is a habit [58:49] ; as soon as you stand up, you button [58:51] it. [58:51] Hey, but what about buttoning the last [58:53] button on a suit? [58:54] Well, it’s like this: for regular [58:57] clothes with three buttons, it's [58:59] probably better not to button the last [59:01] one. But it's not absolute. Because I [59:04] have a photo here, and he even buttons [59:07] the bottom one. Like this person's [59:09] outfit here. It's a newer design, [59:11] relatively speaking, but the foundation [59:13] is military uniform. Actually, the old [59:16] photo I showed—the basis of all men's [59:18] clothing is military uniforms. [59:20] So there's a military vibe? [59:22] Ah, it has form. It has more structure. [59:26] That's it. And this also solves a [59:28] problem, that one from just now... [59:31] It can fit into trousers—it’s like [59:33] a shirt tucked into the pants. [59:35] Then this design is quite refined for [59:37] this outfit. [59:38] Because otherwise, the better the [59:40] ready-to-wear, the longer it usually is [59:42] . [59:42] Right. [59:43] So that’s where the problem lies. [59:45] Right, I just don't want to tuck the [59:47] shirt into my pants. [59:49] And this, well, everyone might know PNE [59:52] . He always dresses like a motorcycle [59:54] cop, and he used to be an athlete. [59:57] Ah. [59:58] Let's look at the next one, this is a [60:00] photo I took. [60:01] Hey. [60:03] I made friends because of dressing like [60:05] this. [60:07] Oh. [60:08] Okay, look again, this is the owner of [60:11] the shop I visit most in Paris. [60:14] Hey, I think he dresses really well too [60:16] . [60:16] He... [60:17] His hat is very distinctive. [60:19] Yes, yes, yes. This old guy is actually [60:23] my cousin, a graphic designer, who [60:25] introduced me to this world of fashion. [60:29] Oh, your cousin really has a very [60:31] elegant look to him. [60:33] He’s over seventy, wait, why are his [60:35] hands so big? Like sculpted hands. [60:38] Maybe it’s because I took the photo [60:39] from a bit close, yes. [60:40] Distortion, distortion. [60:42] A fellow, an old friend, right? [60:44] Yes, yes. Everyone, take another look. [60:47] Anyway, this old man, with his hair [60:48] combed back. He actually has a sense of [60:50] style. [60:51] A sense of style, pays attention to how [60:52] he dresses. [60:53] A shirt, of course, it might look good [60:55] buttoned up too. [60:56] He’s tall, about 1.8 meters. [60:58] Hopefully, there will be a chance to [61:00] take photos for everyone. [61:01] Does everyone know this person? [61:03] He’s a fashion stylist in Shanghai. [61:05] Ah. [61:06] I wear his clothes too. He’s wearing [61:08] his own design, you might not know him, [61:10] he’s a handsome Taiwanese architect. [61:12] Hmm. [61:14] Anyway, he has that look, I joke that [61:16] he’s an Irish man. Oh, wonderful. [61:19] Wearing a shirt like this. [61:22] This was in Taipei, all these [61:23] old-timers getting together for a photo [61:26] . [61:26] Hey. [61:27] Good. This is just how I dress normally [61:31] . This was when my wife and I went to [61:34] find my mother’s hometown, she’s [61:36] from Wuxi. We asked around in the old [61:39] neighborhood, and they said, "That tree [61:42] in the back must be from your family." [61:44] Oh, so that’s where... [61:46] Your outfit is quite interesting too. [61:49] Yes, this is. [61:50] And your camera angle is also [61:52] interesting, it makes you look like you [61:55] have a French hairstyle. [61:56] The hairstyle is interesting too. [61:59] Just looking at this image, it’s what [62:01] I call "proper." The clothes are [62:04] wonderful, and the proportions... [62:06] It completely elongates the legs, they [62:09] look very well-proportioned and upright [62:11] . This is the effect of the clothing, [62:14] it almost seems unreal. [62:15] What about this one? [62:16] Oh, this is actually my home, Lu Jia. [62:20] Uh, with a friend who is a sculptor [62:22] named Zhu Cheng. [62:23] Hmm. [62:25] From Chengdu. [62:27] So Zhu Cheng bought the clothes and the [62:29] hat, and Lu Jia was already wearing a [62:32] hat. They looked like such a perfect [62:35] match that they decided to put on a [62:37] show. [62:38] The joy of dressing up. Yes, it's [62:41] actually fun, and this is a garment we [62:43] designed. [62:44] Look, the color even matches yours. [62:48] That collar there, we actually designed [62:51] it for Liang Sicheng. [62:52] Ah. [62:54] Did the clothes he brought back from [62:56] the U.S. use to be like this? [62:58] So in winter, when he felt it was too [63:00] cold, he added a triangle to his vest. [63:03] Added a triangle. Yes, just to keep [63:06] warm. He recorded this in a letter to [63:08] his then-wife Lin Huiyin, and even drew [63:11] a sketch. I saw it, so I designed that [63:13] collar onto a suit jacket; it can be [63:16] flipped over. [63:17] It’s on the left side now. [63:18] When the weather gets cold, you just [63:20] give it a... [63:21] Oh, it covers it up. [63:22] Exactly, it’s perfect. It was worth [63:25] wearing your outfit today, since it [63:27] matches the color scheme. [63:28] The last one. This is my uncle who [63:31] really loved dressing up. I believe he [63:35] was over 90 in this photo, taken around [63:39] 94 or 95, wearing a hat and a red shirt [63:42] . [63:43] Dressing up. [63:45] Wow, this shows that no matter what age [63:48] a person reaches...... [63:50] they can always find joy in dressing up [63:52] . [63:52] Right, it's about pleasing oneself. [63:55] You just mentioned your uncle was the [63:56] one who introduced you to the world of [63:57] fashion. Was it my cousin? [63:59] Cousin, I see. He led you into the [64:01] world of fashion. [64:02] What do you mean by that? Does it mean [64:04] you didn't care about it before? [64:05] Yes, I didn't care and was completely [64:06] unconscious about it. [64:07] How did he lead you into it? What did [64:10] he say or do? [64:11] He didn't really say anything. He grew [64:14] up in Japan and Los Angeles, so he was [64:17] essentially a foreigner. So one day, [64:21] because I had traveled from Beijing to [64:23] the U.S......and most of my relatives [64:26] were in San Francisco. He flew up from [64:31] Los Angeles just to see this cousin he [64:33] had never met. The whole family had a [64:37] meal together. After we finished and [64:41] were walking back. He suddenly spotted [64:46] a basement shop. He must have known [64:50] about it. He told the rest of the [64:56] family to keep chatting on the street [64:58] above, and he just brought me inside. [65:03] Once inside, it was a concrete box. The [65:06] only thing, uh, how should I put it, [65:09] that you could call a decoration— [65:11] though it wasn't really a decoration— [65:13] that was interesting in that space was [65:16] the U-bend of the toilet from the floor [65:18] above. [65:19] It was exposed, with a laser light [65:22] shining on it. [65:23] Oh my, installation art. [65:25] The setup, oh, it was, oh, it just [65:28] looked so special at the time, and then [65:31] inside. There were two rows of racks on [65:33] the left and right, with a few pieces [65:36] of clothing hanging. I had never seen a [65:38] store like that. And then, wasn't there [65:41] someone waiting above? I remember my [65:44] cousin bought two pairs of pants. One [65:48] red pair. One yellow pair. [65:51] Hey. [65:52] Oh, that must have been quite a visual [65:54] shock for you back then. [65:55] Yes, yes, exactly. [65:57] To think you could buy red pants, [65:58] yellow pants. [65:59] Back in the 80s, China was entirely in [66:01] the era of blue. [66:02] That's right, that's right. [66:04] Everything was all just that one shade. [66:06] No, even in this day and age, for a man [66:09] in his 30s to wear red or yellow pants, [66:11] it takes courage. [66:13] Yes, just like I need courage today. [66:16] Unless you hold a certain status, I [66:18] wouldn't dare. For ordinary people, [66:21] black—like we just mentioned, black. [66:24] Beyond all other reasons, it's the [66:27] safest. Especially for men, as you [66:31] reach a certain age, your muscle mass [66:34] declines and your body ages, so black [66:36] is the safest; it hides the flaws you [66:39] don't want to show, not to mention it's [66:41] convenient, right? We go... [66:46] We can go to an opening ceremony, and [66:48] then head straight to a funeral. It's [66:50] just the safest choice. Yes, yes, at [66:53] this age, you can't avoid these places [66:55] anyway, you won't go wrong. [66:56] So, I look at those photos, and I see [66:59] they are very happy. In those photos of [67:02] people who loved to dress up and knew [67:05] how to dress, the people look happy and [67:07] vibrant. They seem so spirited, [67:10] satisfied, and attentive; I think this [67:12] is very important. For men, I find it [67:15] quite touching. Do you notice what your [67:19] father wears? I recall I never really [67:21] remembered what my parents wore my [67:24] whole life, only once when I was about [67:26] 20. I noticed my father, who was in his [67:29] 40s then and had just been transferred [67:31] to a decent-sized department as a [67:33] manager in an organization. During that [67:36] period, I noticed my father would wear [67:38] a tie to work. [67:40] He’d pick out a suit and all that. [67:43] Since he worked at a newspaper office, [67:45] usually you didn't need to wear a suit [67:47] and tie to go to the office. Later I [67:50] found out that the department he was [67:53] transferred to managed the archives, [67:55] and among the ten employees, including [67:58] my father, nine were women. Okay, and I [68:00] heard some of the young ladies had even [68:03] complimented my father. [68:04] Mmh. " [68:05] Oh, Mr. Ma, you look so handsome today! [68:09] " That was my father's peak; during [68:11] that period, he’d dress up every [68:14] single day for work. In his whole life, [68:17] I think that was my father's highlight [68:20] moment. [68:20] Getting complimented by women, and then [68:23] dressing up. [68:24] I also know quite a few designers, [68:27] Especially those in home decor or [68:29] interior design. I've noticed they all [68:32] look very good. [68:33] Hmm. [68:36] Well, I think especially for those home [68:38] designers, they mostly deal with female [68:41] homeowners, right? So, their stylish [68:46] and appropriate appearance leaves a [68:48] great impression. Which leads to them [68:52] constantly getting new projects. [68:54] So it's similar to the situation with [68:57] Mr. Ma's father. [68:59] Because when it comes to looks—aside [69:01] from people like Daniel Wu, Takeshi [69:03] Kaneshiro, or Eddie Peng, who we truly [69:06] consider handsome—most people are [69:08] fairly similar, with their own unique [69:10] features. I think self-confidence is [69:13] very important. Believe in yourself— [69:17] for example, take young women nowadays, [69:19] or even those not so young; they all [69:22] like dressing quite cool, you know, [69:24] short shorts, crop tops, and so on. OK. [69:28] And I've noticed, perhaps it's a bias. [69:32] When I was studying in the US, I saw [69:34] young women dressing like that, even [69:36] though many didn't have the best [69:39] figures. Even those who might be [69:41] considered "chubby" by biological or [69:43] anthropological standards—I didn't [69:46] think they looked bad, because I felt [69:48] they walked with such confidence. Like, [69:50] "I'm wearing this, I'm comfortable, I'm [69:53] natural," and that was it. OK. [69:56] Then, back in the Asian world— [69:58] different parts of Asia, different [70:00] societies. We see some girls dressing [70:02] that way because it's trendy and [70:04] they're young. Even girls with [70:08] so-called "great figures" lack that [70:11] aesthetic appeal because when they walk [70:13] , they seem afraid of rude or [70:16] unfriendly stares. No matter how good [70:20] their figure is, they lack confidence [70:23] —that's the difference. But there is [70:26] one thing I find truly amazing, and [70:29] that's color. For instance, colors that [70:33] are more vibrant—we usually don't [70:35] dare to wear them, or don't know how to [70:38] style them, and feel the risk of [70:40] failure is very high. But, like that [70:43] David Hockney book you're holding, [70:46] Hmm. [70:47] David Hockney is a painter, and he has [70:49] developed his own unique style of [70:51] dressing. Is there a color theory [70:53] behind his color schemes, do you think? [70:56] I mean, it seems to me he pairs bright [70:58] colors with bright colors, like green [71:01] with pink—it's just...wow. It’s not [71:04] just because I know it’s David [71:06] Hockney, I really think he pulls it off [71:09] well. But I can imagine if I wore those [71:13] same colors, people would stare. Does [71:16] he follow some absolute rule? [71:19] This is probably a question for [71:21] Professor Xu. [71:22] It might have to do with his paintings [71:25] themselves. [71:25] His paintings are colorful, very [71:28] vibrant, and have high saturation. [71:30] With red and green fields, and the [71:33] landscapes he paints. [71:35] There's likely a connection between his [71:38] style of dress and his creative work. [71:43] People who look good in bright colors [71:45] are simply those who have a natural [71:48] sense for them. [71:50] I could wear them too. Especially [71:52] bright ones. [71:53] Really? You have some too? [71:55] What is the brightest thing you’ve [71:57] ever worn? [71:58] That green was even brighter than this. [72:00] A really fresh, vibrant green suit or [72:03] jacket. [72:04] No, a shirt. Anyway, it’s the same [72:08] principle: if you wear it and feel [72:10] relaxed, and it feels like it gives you [72:12] a little boost of energy, [72:13] then others will find it pleasing to [72:16] the eye as well. [72:17] It’s a little surprise for yourself. [72:19] Right, but if you put it on and feel [72:22] shy, uncomfortable, or unnatural, then [72:25] just don’t. Professor Xu, what’s [72:27] the most vibrant or peculiar outfit [72:30] you’ve ever worn? [72:31] We have many very vibrant clothes. [72:34] I've worn them. I’m curious, [72:36] Professor Zhang, do you have any [72:38] clothes you wear that aren't meant to [72:39] be seen by others, just for yourself? [72:41] Ah. [72:43] I once bought—or rather, had made—a [72:45] cotton-padded robe. [72:47] It’s like those long, traditional [72:49] robes worn by Lu Xun or people at [72:51] Peking University. It’s not for any [72:53] specific occasion, but what do I use it [72:56] for? Whenever it snows, [72:58] I put it on to go take pictures. Of the [73:02] trees, the snow—it’s that feeling, [73:04] you know how people say Beijing turns [73:06] into Beiping when it snows? It’s that [73:09] vibe. Or if I’m going to a friend’s [73:11] house for a gathering on a snowy night, [73:12] I wear that. [73:13] Is it a large golden pattern? [73:15] Yes, a very traditional, somewhat [73:16] rustic-looking large golden pattern. [73:18] Wearing something like that is purely [73:20] for my own enjoyment. I wouldn't wear [73:22] it out otherwise; it feels too [73:24] theatrical. It’s just... [73:26] I love wearing clothes. [73:28] That, it definitely is. I have worn [73:31] clothes that I wouldn't wear out in [73:33] public, just for myself. Only for a few [73:36] seconds, just trying on women's [73:38] clothing. [73:40] I grew up surrounded by women. I mean, [73:44] I lived with my sisters, mother, a [73:46] bunch of aunts, and my grandmother. [73:50] Growing up in a tiny Hong Kong [73:52] apartment, eight people lived in that [73:55] small space. Seven of those eight were [73:59] women, and my father was often away at [74:01] work. Can you imagine what I faced in [74:05] that small flat? I'd look up and see [74:09] women's undergarments. [74:10] Yeah. [74:11] Underwear and bras hanging on the doors [74:13] , because space is tight in Hong Kong [74:14] and we had no balcony. [74:15] Right. [74:16] After doing the laundry, you had to [74:18] hang it up somewhere, so it hung there. [74:20] It was just unavoidable. [74:22] I was about ten or eleven, just for fun [74:24] . When I saw no one was home, I would [74:28] try them on, from tops to skirts to [74:31] underwear. It felt quite strange. It [74:38] wasn't about cross-dressing; what was [74:40] the feeling back then when I was young? [74:45] It was like suddenly understanding how [74:48] it feels to be a woman wearing those [74:50] clothes. For example, putting on my [74:54] sister's high heels, you feel [74:56] restricted; the same with their bras, [74:58] you feel bound. We realize that as [75:01] women grow up, the clothes they wear [75:03] shape their entire psychological state. [75:07] You're constantly restricted; even when [75:09] wearing a skirt, you have to be careful [75:12] about being peeked at. So, the control [75:17] women have over their bodies—how they [75:20] have to walk, the clothing that binds [75:22] them—clothing is more than just [75:24] looking good or not; it shapes your [75:26] mental state and your relationship with [75:29] your body. Men, generally speaking, can [75:35] move around, spread their legs— " [75:38] man's spirit," that's what it is, just [75:40] being a man—spreading your legs and [75:43] so on. So, I have actually worn women's [75:48] clothing. [75:50] I have worn them. [75:51] Women's clothes. [75:53] I was just trying to keep the [75:54] conversation going. [75:55] Right, right. Didn't you have an older [75:58] brother? And for me, wasn't it that [76:00] they hoped... [76:01] The second child would be a girl. [76:03] Mhm. [76:04] No, they were certain the second child [76:06] would be a girl. [76:07] They made all these girls' clothes. But [76:11] I was born a boy, so I ended up wearing [76:14] those. [76:15] Oh, if you put it that way, I'll [76:18] confess too. I'm also the second child, [76:21] and my mom's thoughts back then were [76:23] the same. [76:24] So I also wore little skirts. [76:27] As a child, everything I wore was [76:29] floral. The fabric they bought was all [76:31] intended for a girl. All floral clothes [76:33] . [76:33] So, does your feminine side today have [76:35] something to do with this? [76:36] I think so, I think so, I...Many ladies [76:38] have said that Mr. Zhang has a bit of [76:40] an effeminate side. [76:41] Hmm, how much I have, I don't know, but [76:43] there's definitely some. [76:44] Well, for me, there's a bottom line [76:46] when it comes to dressing: it can't be [76:48] uncomfortable, right. [76:49] I just...I'm way too comfortable. [76:51] Hmm, look at my suit jacket, for [76:54] instance. [76:55] A suit is designed for someone who is [76:57] sitting down. [76:58] Right. So it’s not meant for sports; [77:02] you wouldn't go lift heavy objects or [77:05] go running in it, so it has a certain [77:07] fit—it’s restrictive, and being [77:10] neat is a form of restraint itself. [77:14] That's why so-called aristocrats and [77:17] such don't eat very quickly, because [77:19] eating fast and getting food all over [77:22] yourself would be impolite. But look at [77:27] 007; he intentionally wears a super [77:29] tight-fitting suit, doesn't he? [77:33] I just worry that he might rip the [77:35] crotch. [77:36] Right, he’s not just any average [77:38] person; I have a very good tailor [77:41] friend. [77:43] Well, when they make clothes, they [77:45] leave a little bit of room at certain [77:47] key points, so you don't have to wear [77:49] them baggy. Hey, look, he looks a bit [77:54] like an old tailor; don't you think [77:56] this look... [77:58] These four buttons—the smaller they [78:00] are, the more it looks like this kind [78:02] of work jacket. [78:05] You mentioned aristocrats earlier; [78:07] every movement they make, even every [78:10] expression and every gaze, requires [78:12] training and practice. For the average [78:17] person, fashion taste includes not just [78:20] your choice of clothing, its color, and [78:23] design, but also how you wear it. When [78:27] you have it on, what posture you use to [78:30] walk, [78:31] what posture you use to sit, how you [78:33] talk, whether your movements are broad [78:36] or small—all of that is included in [78:39] what we call fashion taste. As the old [78:42] saying goes, "It takes three [78:43] generations to learn how to dress and [78:46] eat." Okay? Because at first, you don't [78:49] have it. Even if you wear designer [78:52] brands, or if someone makes it simple [78:54] for you and you pay someone to style [78:56] your clothes—saying, "For your look, [78:59] you should wear this"—once you put it [79:01] on, you still walk the same way, like [79:04] you just drew water from a well. The [79:06] walk is different; the vibe just isn't [79:09] right. That’s why you need the logos, [79:12] otherwise people wouldn't know. Yes, [79:14] exactly, that's very important, so you [79:16] have to show off all those labels. [79:19] And looking at these photos, I suddenly [79:22] realized that...Actually, no one is [79:24] inherently good-looking or ugly. Right? [79:27] Look at some sculptors or others; you [79:30] wouldn't exactly call their looks " [79:32] good-looking," or maybe they’re just [79:34] getting old. But I've found that if you [79:37] have a painter's eye, whatever clothes, [79:40] hats, or scarves you wear, when you [79:42] take a photo, it looks like a work of [79:45] art. [79:46] Maybe many people just lack confidence? [79:50] Mm-hmm. [79:52] They feel they should look different, [79:54] and as long as they stay in that [79:56] mindset, they're definitely out of luck [79:58] . [80:00] Like the three of you, after we finish [80:02] in a few minutes, I’d like to take [80:04] photos of each of you. They will all [80:09] turn out great. [80:10] People who truly love fashion wander [80:13] through the streets; in every city [80:15] across Europe, there are all sorts of [80:17] style subcultures. When you're with [80:19] friends, for instance, a friend might [80:21] take you to see someone wearing what's [80:23] called "vintage." [80:24] What do they call it now? "Gu-zhu"( [80:26] Vintage). Vintage, right? It’s very [80:29] cheap. Oh, I was almost going crazy [80:31] looking at everything there. Of course, [80:33] it didn't suit me and I didn't buy much [80:35] , but that's how I realized—whenever [80:37] I see him dressed like that, he [80:39] sometimes looks a bit like Oscar Wilde, [80:41] the British writer, right? I even feel [80:43] that in these kinds of shops, sometimes [80:45] —like when I saw a pair of Nikes [80:47] there. [80:48] Mm. [80:49] But you can't find them anymore; it was [80:52] a pair of sneakers, probably released [80:54] decades ago. Oh, I loved them so much, [80:58] but there was only one pair and they [81:01] were half a size too small for me. Oh, [81:03] I hesitated, I hesitated. I thought, [81:07] maybe I could squeeze into them, but in [81:09] the end, I realized there was no way to [81:11] wear them. [81:11] But I still think about them. I feel [81:14] like I rarely experience that joy of [81:17] browsing in our big cities these years; [81:19] wandering around big shopping malls [81:22] just isn't the same. In Japan, there's [81:25] a lot of vintage, second-hand, and [81:27] antique clothing. I love buying it; [81:29] it's a bit embarrassing to say, but [81:31] first of all, as a "little potato from [81:33] the south" like me, I just think, "Wow, [81:36] it's so cheap!" It feels like a bargain [81:38] even if I don't wear it, just because [81:40] it was so inexpensive. It’s very fun [81:42] and unbelievably cheap. Later, I [81:45] learned that those vintage shops are [81:47] actually categorized. One type is [81:49] regular vintage, and another category [81:51] is vintage that might come from people [81:54] who have passed away. Maybe they hung [81:56] themselves, or maybe they died of [81:59] illness. That stuff is extra cheap, you [82:01] know? Picking through it—anyway, I [82:04] find it quite fun. [82:05] Some of those clothes even still have [82:07] the price tags on them. [82:09] Oh right, there's another reason, which [82:11] is that in Japan right now, those three [82:14] major brands are all finished. They're [82:18] all terrible. But if you want to find a [82:21] piece with good design, like Yohji [82:23] Yamamoto, [82:24] you'll probably have to buy vintage; [82:26] there are no new ones. [82:27] Didn't you say Yohji Yamamoto's clothes [82:30] are worn by gangsters? [82:31] Yeah, that's it, that's right. [82:33] Kitano Takeshi, exactly. Right, hey, [82:36] why is that, why? [82:38] Didn't he offer an explanation himself, [82:41] thinking bad guys have personality? [82:43] But I don't know, I'm not sure if he [82:45] really designed them for bad guys. [82:48] Of course he didn't. [82:50] It's more like he was thinking of those [82:52] thin gypsies who were thin because they [82:54] had nothing to eat. Wearing those [82:56] loose-fitting garments. [82:57] So he designed those oversized things, [83:00] and I just happened to see one. I [83:01] happened to be across the street, maybe [83:04] waiting for my wife. I was on this side [83:07] of the road, and across the street was [83:10] the store. Since there are so many [83:12] Comme des Garçons and Yohji Yamamoto [83:14] shops there. I saw a gangster wearing a [83:17] set of these oversized clothes. Walking [83:22] from one window to the second window, [83:24] back and forth, picking out clothes. I [83:27] really wanted to film a video. [83:30] You see, even Japanese gangsters have [83:32] to have style and flair. Actually, [83:34] Professor Zhang, Zhang Ronghe has [83:36] already pointed out something very [83:38] important. What is the most basic thing [83:40] about having good taste in dressing? [83:42] It’s actually cleanliness; even when [83:44] we were kids, everyone wore the same [83:46] things, but there was one family whose [83:48] clothes were always washed clean, [83:50] wearing the same outfit. But you see, [83:53] it was just high-class. Right, it's [83:55] completely different from others; their [83:57] self-respect and respect for others [83:59] remain consistent. [84:00] And respect for their clothes as well. [84:03] Right, the teacher must really despise [84:06] the currently popular "wasteland style, [84:09] " like that movie Dune, [84:11] After Dune became popular, young people [84:14] ... [84:14] Young people all like to wear wasteland [84:17] style, " [84:17] Waste" as in junk, [84:19] Wasteland style. [84:21] It feels like those shops in Dune, that [84:24] wasteland look like you've been rolling [84:27] in the sand, worn-out, distressed [84:30] leather jackets, dirty but cool, with [84:32] holes in them, basically in tatters, [84:35] barely covering the body. I ask, why [84:38] buy this? I try to understand it, I [84:41] keep trying to understand it; maybe [84:43] it’s just a different aesthetic. [84:45] There’s a kind of style nowadays, [84:46] that sort of trendy look that’s [84:48] actually quite expensive, more than [84:50] what you’d buy. [84:51] It’s distressed, that stuff they have [84:53] to manually wear down. [84:54] Even when it’s been washed clean. [84:56] It’s worn down to that kind of patina [84:59] finish. That kind of clothing, actually [85:01] , maybe it started with bowling. Like [85:04] it’s been blown up, with big holes [85:07] and such. But wearing such rugged [85:10] clothes really suits a specific group [85:13] of people, maybe those who are truly [85:15] athletic and fit. If you have a more [85:18] refined style, wearing those clothes [85:20] will actually look quite ridiculous. [85:23] Right, right, right. [85:24] Exactly, it comes back to having an [85:26] understanding of yourself. Yes, [85:28] sometimes I can tell, like when a [85:30] friend wears certain clothes, I say, "I [85:32] know in your heart you’re imagining [85:34] yourself as a cowboy." [85:35] Right, right, right. [85:36] But you don't look the part at all. [85:38] Right? Well, if they're happy [85:41] themselves, what can you do? [85:42] There’s no way, no way at all. [85:45] Like in Beijing now, I heard you say [85:47] last time that you feel the city, these [85:50] roads, are just too wide. Hmm. [85:52] And so, a lot of the fun of strolling [85:55] through small streets is lost. [85:57] Right. [85:58] When you were young in Beijing, you [85:59] still had that pleasure. [86:01] Yes, the streets weren't very wide back [86:03] then. [86:03] After dinner, my parents would take me [86:05] and my brother out to the street. [86:07] Sometimes we’d look at things; [86:08] actually, thinking about it now, it was [86:10] just wandering, just taking a walk in [86:12] Beijing. You’d run into friends, or [86:14] some of my classmates. Neighbors or [86:17] relatives, we'd just stand on the [86:19] street and chat, then remember to buy [86:21] something or see a sale and pick it up. [86:24] So that kind of shopping was, you could [86:26] say, incidental—completely different [86:29] from how we have a specific purpose now [86:32] , buy one thing, and leave. [86:34] This has a lot to do with you [86:36] architects, doesn't it? [86:37] It wasn't built by you, was it? But I [86:40] wouldn't want to build it that way. If [86:42] given the chance, we are now starting [86:44] to design small streets. [86:45] Hmm. [86:46] Just small blocks. In an industrial [86:52] zone in Shanghai, we designed each [86:54] so-called "block"—the area surrounded [86:57] by four streets—to be just 40 meters [87:00] by 40 meters. Nowadays, the so-called [87:04] new towns we see, including in Beijing, [87:06] a block is 500 meters by 500 meters or [87:09] larger. [87:09] Ah, huge. [87:11] Huge, really huge, so the street [87:13] density is low. But the streets are [87:16] wide. And so, it has actually killed [87:18] off a lot of the pleasure of urban life [87:20] . I truly feel that it is now time for [87:23] the architectural community in China to [87:25] reflect. In previous years, you [87:27] couldn't blame it, because the country [87:30] was in such a state, recovering from [87:32] ruins. Then, with this rapid [87:34] development, the resulting high-rise [87:36] buildings are actually quite unfriendly [87:39] to pedestrians. The joy of shopping, [87:41] one reason for its decline is [87:44] e-commerce. So you see, here in the [87:46] mainland, e-commerce is just too [87:49] advanced. You won't find anywhere else [87:51] in the world as convenient as China is [87:54] now, but on the other hand, doesn't it [87:56] seem like something is missing at the [87:58] same time? [88:01] Actually, it has always been the case [88:03] that men in China like to claim they [88:05] don't enjoy shopping. Of course, they [88:11] might be forced to go buy something if [88:13] their wives tell them to, but shopping [88:15] was originally one of the reasons to be [88:18] in the city. [88:20] Right. [88:21] So [88:22] Yes, or living in the suburbs. [88:24] Yes, either living in the suburbs, or [88:26] now it's just online shopping, right? [88:27] You [88:28] Actually, there is a lot of joy in it. [88:31] For instance, I'll give you an example; [88:34] it was in Turin. I was in Turin giving [88:36] a lecture. Then I went for a stroll on [88:39] the streets. There was an old street, [88:41] full of little shops, one after another [88:44] . I went into a record store, a shop [88:47] with absolutely no business, where a [88:49] lady was just surrounded by records [88:52] everywhere in the shop. I told her I [88:57] was actually looking for a specific [88:59] record. After she finished looking, she [89:04] said, "Take a look, these are all old [89:06] records, the quality might be bad, or [89:08] it might be good, I'll play it for you. [89:10] " She played it, and that was the start [89:13] of it, we just started chatting. Anyway [89:17] . There was no one else around, we had [89:19] a very pleasant chat, then she went out [89:21] to buy some coffee. [89:22] Came back, we had some coffee, and then [89:25] she recommended more for me to listen [89:27] to. It was probably raining or snowing [89:29] outside, and I spent a couple of hours [89:32] there. [89:32] It was so beautiful. [89:34] I bought two records in total, since [89:36] they were all used, I spent...Anyway, I [89:37] don't remember, maybe I spent 10 yuan. [89:39] Oh my. [89:41] She lost money on the whole thing. [89:43] These kinds of small shops aren't [89:44] really about how much money they can [89:46] make. I've encountered such shops too, [89:50] run by a designer, a little shop they [89:52] created in a corner of a tiny, obscure [89:54] town in Japan that most tourists [89:57] probably never reach. I spent my time [90:00] there looking at those little items [90:01] they brought back from Europe. It just [90:03] has a special vibe, like putting [90:05] artwork on display, then buying some [90:07] jeans or a few T-shirts. With so much [90:09] effort put into it, how many kilometers [90:11] does he drive to work every day? Nobody [90:14] was really selling anything, but it was [90:16] fascinating. I saw the whole interior, [90:19] the lights looked great, and he said [90:21] they were shipped from Italy. I asked [90:23] if he could sell me one of those [90:25] vintage lamps. The whole atmosphere [90:27] kept me there for a long time; I just [90:29] felt like this guy and what he was [90:31] doing were really interesting. [90:33] Yeah, that's right. [90:34] Hmm. [90:36] He’s not really, um...Right, it's not [90:39] like you have to buy something. It’s [90:45] like looking at August Sander’s work. [90:51] Once in Kyoto, I didn’t realize that [90:54] the antique street was closed on [90:56] Sundays or holidays. So, all the shops [91:01] were closed, which was frustrating. But [91:04] then, at the entrance of a small alley, [91:07] there was an English sign saying " [91:09] We’re a bookstore," handwritten. [91:12] Since I had nowhere else to go, I went [91:14] in. I entered that alley; the [91:16] storefront was about this wide, with a [91:18] display window this big and a door this [91:21] big. There were two books on display. [91:23] One was a photography book by Sander, [91:25] and the other was about architecture. I [91:27] thought, "Isn't this my kind of shop?" [91:30] I walked in and a middle-aged man came [91:33] out, managing to speak a little English [91:35] . He asked me—it was just a small [91:39] room inside, how empty could it be? [91:43] Later, I told him I saw the two books [91:46] in his display window at the entrance. [91:49] I said I was interested in both—one [91:51] is photography, and the other is [91:53] architecture. He asked what else I was [91:57] interested in regarding photography, [91:59] and I mentioned a few names. There was [92:04] a small ladder nearby, not a staircase [92:07] but a climbing ladder, and he just went [92:10] up. It seemed like he went upstairs; I [92:12] heard movement. He brought down a book [92:14] and said, "Take a look.""How about this [92:17] one?""Is this what you're looking for?" [92:19] If I said "no," or if I said "yes"... [92:21] He’d say, "Oh," and after a while, [92:23] he’d go again. [92:24] Oh boy. [92:25] That’s how he runs his business. How [92:27] many sales could he make in a day? [92:29] Anyway, I figure that day was like that [92:31] long TV show in Turin—our part of [92:34] this story—isn't their life difficult [92:36] ? [92:36] I don't know. I said, "No rush, right?" [92:39] But for me, it was so interesting, I [92:41] still remember the feeling. [92:43] Well, the startup costs have to be low. [92:46] In my memory, back when I used to come [92:49] to Beijing—especially Beijing—what [92:51] was the greatest joy? Hunting for [92:53] things. Buying CDs, collecting CDs. Why [92:58] ? There were these little shops, [93:00] especially near Peking University or [93:02] Tsinghua. You'd duck into an alley, [93:04] find a small store, and inside would be [93:06] a hipster sitting there. [93:07] And you could see for yourself, he was [93:10] a total cinephile, really into films. [93:13] He had collected all sorts of things. [93:16] When I saw someone else walk in, [93:18] honestly, if we shared the same [93:20] interests, our eyes would just lock. [93:24] While others were picking out Hong Kong [93:26] cinema or those golden-age classics, [93:29] we’d be searching everywhere, and [93:31] he’d immediately ask, "Hey, sir, what [93:33] are you looking for?" I'd name some [93:37] film by some European director, and I [93:40] felt his joy wasn't just about making a [93:43] sale. [93:45] He’d found a kindred spirit. He’d [93:48] practically scramble upstairs and ask, [93:50] "Should I recommend this one to you?" [93:52] That kind of happiness is great. But [93:54] it's gone now; you don't really find [93:56] shops like that anymore. Anyway, last [93:59] night in Beijing wasn't bad. I arrived [94:02] at the hotel after 11 p.m., checked [94:04] into my room, and my craving for a [94:07] drink kicked in, so I went out for one. [94:09] I walked out, strolled for about seven [94:12] minutes, and across from the hotel was [94:14] a small street full of places selling [94:17] skewers, those Northeast-style BBQ [94:19] skewers. [94:20] Skewers, skewers, skewer shops, [94:22] barbecue joints, all that stuff, still [94:26] open at 11 p.m. What to do? I don't [94:29] love beer, so I kept looking. Up ahead, [94:34] I saw a little place—a tiny tavern; I [94:36] can't name it, don't want to sound like [94:39] I'm advertising it. [94:42] I went to pay. [94:43] Ah, a little tavern. Once inside, they [94:47] were playing jazz music. There were two [94:51] young men, both looked under 30. I [94:54] asked for a menu, and they said there [94:57] wasn't one. They just asked if I wanted [95:00] red wine, white wine, or whiskey, and [95:02] what kind of flavor I liked, then [95:04] they’d mix something or offer a [95:06] recommendation. I sat there listening [95:11] to the music—it wasn't noisy at all [95:13] —and I thought, "Oh, I really wish I [95:16] owned a little shop like this." But [95:20] with startup costs so high, it's [95:22] impossible in Hong Kong. It’s only [95:25] possible in places with low startup [95:28] costs, like somewhere in a hidden [95:30] Beijing alleyway, perhaps. Spending a [95:32] few years of your life as the owner of [95:34] such a small shop would be so [95:36] satisfying, wouldn't it? A way to [95:38] reflect and look back on your life. [95:41] It's just life. Truly, I feel that [95:44] while we often emphasize grand designs, [95:47] small innovations are actually the most [95:50] relatable. You see, often when [95:53] strolling through an alleyway, it just [95:55] feels like a wholesale market for [95:57] trinkets, like the ones we used to have [95:59] . You know, these small-goods wholesale [96:01] markets often prioritize volume. [96:03] Sometimes when I visit tourist spots, I [96:06] see many shops, but they all sell the [96:08] exact same things. [96:09] It’s all from Yiwu. [96:10] Right. Here, we might be obsessed with [96:13] becoming big-name artists. But I think [96:15] there should have been many, many [96:18] small-scale designers instead. Take a [96:20] small shop, for example; in some cities [96:23] , it’s truly different. Each place is [96:25] unique, each one distinct—there are [96:28] countless varieties of something as [96:30] simple as glasses. They aren't all the [96:32] same; that’s what makes them fun to [96:35] explore. Right, the fun of exploring [96:37] comes from this variety and difference, [96:39] doesn't it? [96:40] Actually, every city—take London or [96:43] Tokyo, for instance—the residential [96:46] areas all look pretty much the same. [96:49] The style is similar; there's the [96:52] British vibe, the Tokyo vibe, the Kyoto [96:55] vibe, and the buildings are mostly the [96:57] same. The interest lies in these small [97:00] shops. [97:01] They give you these unexpected [97:02] surprises. [97:03] Mm. [97:04] Exactly, you're just taking a walk. [97:05] Strolling, [97:06] While strolling, you suddenly see a [97:08] small shop selling curios. [97:10] The items are chosen based on the [97:12] owner's own taste, like a basket or a [97:14] piece of cloth. A small bag or perhaps [97:18] a bowl. When you see these items, their [97:21] taste makes you feel an instant [97:23] connection, as if they know your heart, [97:25] and these things aren't even expensive. [97:29] So, these small shops, including cafes, [97:32] small noodle shops, or whatever is on [97:34] the street, are the living cells that [97:37] give a place its soul. Oh, that’s a [97:41] great way to put it. It’s popular now [97:44] , especially among young people, a new [97:46] way of traveling called "City Walk." [97:48] Mm. [97:49] It’s true, because visiting many [97:51] tourist spots is too much of a hassle [97:54] now. Even in Europe, you have to book [97:56] big museums online, or they're sold out [97:58] , or you’re rushing around. Now, you [98:00] see this trend of just not heading [98:02] anywhere specific. [98:04] I’m in a city, and I don’t [98:05] necessarily have to go to the Louvre or [98:08] anywhere else; I just wander wherever I [98:10] feel like. But it really requires all [98:12] those living cells for this way of [98:15] traveling to be so joyful. I remember [98:18] Ah Cheng wrote in his "Venice Diary" [98:20] that his favorite way of strolling is [98:23] to walk through small streets, and if [98:25] he takes a wrong turn, he thinks, "Why [98:27] not just keep going the wrong way and [98:30] explore like this?" He spent all day in [98:33] Venice strolling just like that; if he [98:36] went the wrong way, he just kept going. [98:38] There's no right or wrong, and I think [98:41] it's because the urban fabric there is [98:43] rich enough. [98:44] Well, that depends on your perspective. [98:47] Hasn't Hong Kong's economy been a bit [98:49] sluggish in recent years? [98:51] The Hong Kong government has put a lot [98:54] of effort into this. [98:55] They've promoted tourism to bring [98:57] visitors in, and it's had some results. [99:00] In terms of numbers, suddenly this past [99:02] year there's been quite an increase in [99:03] tourists, especially young people and [99:05] middle-aged folks coming to Hong Kong. [99:07] But, but what are they actually here [99:09] for? Wentao, it's that "city walk" you [99:12] mentioned—without spending money, you [99:14] know? Hong Kong people have missed the [99:16] point, haven't they? They don't even [99:19] stay in hotels; some are even teaching [99:21] people on online platforms how to sleep [99:24] in Hong Kong without spending a dime, [99:26] and the walk costs nothing either. Even [99:30] if they visit small shops and have a [99:33] great time, they don't spend much money [99:35] . The government spent a fortune on [99:38] fireworks and events, and people came, [99:41] but as we say in Cantonese, it's "busy" [99:44] but not—sorry, not wealth-generating. [99:47] " [99:47] Busy with people, but not wealth."" [99:49] Busy with crowds, but not prosperity." [99:51] Just lots of people, but they aren't [99:53] spending money. Right, before, as [99:55] locals, we could still go to the [99:57] mountains or the seaside on weekends to [100:00] take a walk. Now, everywhere you go in [100:03] Hong Kong, it’s like living through a [100:05] May Day holiday every single day. [100:07] It’s always so crowded. [100:09] You are... [100:11] The premise here is that this place [100:13] needs to be slightly more enclosed. A [100:15] place with a smaller scale. Professor [100:18] Zhang, you talk about the texture of a [100:20] city—you're the expert on texture. [100:22] Does this texture conflict with the [100:25] convenience of urban transportation? [100:27] No conflict, no conflict at all. [100:30] How so? [100:31] Cities must have a certain density. [100:34] Regarding this density, there is an [100:36] American scholar who has a specific [100:38] theory. It sounds a bit extreme, but it [100:43] says that a good city is one that [100:45] offers the most choices within the [100:48] smallest possible area. Let's talk [100:51] about dining, for example. [100:53] If there is only one restaurant, no [100:56] matter how big or good it is, that is [100:58] not urban life. Mm. [101:01] Mm. [101:02] Rather, it's having all sorts of [101:04] different choices. That structure [101:07] requires a relatively high number of [101:09] streets—small streets, of course. And [101:14] naturally, a city made up of many small [101:17] blocks. The place where we live in New [101:21] York is just like that. [101:23] Mm. [101:24] It's likely that it really does fit [101:27] that 15, so-called 15-minute walking [101:30] living circle. So from our home, no [101:34] matter the direction, especially [101:36] walking north or south, it's about 8 [101:39] minutes each way. Uh. How many [101:44] supermarkets? There are probably five [101:47] or six. Of course, they each have their [101:50] own different focus. And how many [101:53] cinemas are there? Maybe four. There's [101:57] one right next to our place, but it [101:59] isn't open every day; it's open Friday, [102:02] Saturday, and Sunday. [102:04] Mm. [102:05] And from Monday to Thursday, it's a [102:08] university...it's like... [102:11] Uh, of course, they show different [102:13] types of films. Uh, and maybe five or [102:16] six optical shops. Ha. [102:21] Otherwise, I think the real answer to [102:24] why some people choose to live in the [102:26] city, paying such expensive rent or [102:29] buying very pricey homes, is...What do [102:31] you get in exchange? Is it just that [102:37] tiny, tiny apartment in New York? [102:40] Actually, it's all of these resources. [102:43] It's the network of social exchange. [102:46] Yes, it has social aspects. [102:48] So the human density here—going back [102:50] to what you said about Beijing—even [102:52] in New York, I don't know as many [102:54] people as I did in Beijing, but you can [102:56] still run into old friends on the [102:58] street. [102:59] He didn't even know I saw him walking [103:01] over because everyone is walking there. [103:03] I often hear that Los Angeles is a [103:05] failed example, is that right? [103:07] Yes, yes, yes, Houston and all those [103:09] places. [103:10] It belongs to a type of city where you [103:12] need to drive for an hour. [103:13] To get from one place to another. [103:15] Exactly. Yes, the vast majority of [103:18] America is actually the same as Los [103:21] Angeles. Some areas of Manhattan are [103:24] really quite like Hong Kong; perhaps [103:26] outside of the HKU area, which isn't [103:29] easy to walk in, other places are fine, [103:31] especially with the subway and buses. [103:36] You don't need—you can own a car, but [103:39] you don't necessarily have to own one. [103:41] But look at the traffic congestion in [103:44] Manhattan. [103:44] Right? [103:45] You have to pay a price. [103:47] Exactly. For this kind of life, it [103:50] involves the question of whose [103:52] interests come first. [103:53] Right? You'd say, if the density is [103:57] very high, won't that cause other [103:59] extreme inconveniences? [104:03] At least from the perspective of Hong [104:06] Kong or Manhattan, it doesn't seem so. [104:09] Oh. [104:11] The benefits brought by this density [104:13] may outweigh those H.