从台湾回上海后彻底清醒！这3天的心理落差，比失恋还难受！差距大到不敢直视！#台湾 #北京 #窦文涛 #历史 #文化认同 #博物馆 #圆桌派

从台湾回上海后彻底清醒：这3天的心理落差比失恋还难受 节目围绕上海的地域文化、城市性格与美食哲学展开了全景式的漫谈。嘉宾们从粮票时代的“半两”精细、石库门里的邻里边界感与方言消逝，一路聊到北京与上海南北生活习惯的冲撞，并延伸至童年饥饿记忆、菜市场的未知偶遇以及新大陆作物重塑人口的历史。下半场则深入探讨了人造肉与分子美食的科学困局，并回顾了海派时尚从弄堂睡衣、鸿翔时装到90年代口红与热水器普及的演进过程。整场对话将宏大的社会变迁落脚于鲜活的日常微观体验之中。 上海人精细入微的性格与边界感并非天生，而是源于计划经济时期的“半两粮票”、潮湿易腐的气候，以及1937年难民潮后石库门多户拥挤共居所倒逼出的生存适应与独立核算习惯。 (0:00) 随着1990年代以来的大规模跨地域人口流动与普通话推广，上海年轻人正陷入“听得懂但不会说”的语言断层，承载独特地方世界观的上海方言在公共场域面临同质化侵蚀。 (16:16) 童年物质匮乏深刻塑造了东方人特有的饮食心理：从独占偷食带来的内疚感，到对食材“咀嚼口感”与“吞咽快感”的极致追逐，均映射出早年口唇期匮乏在潜意识中的投射。 (39:07) 上海近现代风尚始终与居住基础设施紧密互锁：人均4平米的局促空间曾让弄堂成为公共客厅并催生了“穿睡衣上街”的默契，而1990年代中期家用热水器的普及才真正解锁了香水消费与日常梳妆的成熟。 (61:46)

节目通过窦文涛、金宇澄、周轶君、陈丹青及陈晓卿等多位嘉宾的对话，探讨了上海独特的市井规则、人际边界与审美传统，并由此延伸至方言消逝、物质匮乏对个体饮食心理的塑造，以及饮食与都市文化的演变。 度量衡与边界感：精细算计的地理与历史根源 (0:00) 北方大开大合的生活方式与上海斤斤计较的精细习惯形成鲜明对比。在计划经济时期，北方粮食按斤配给，而上海则诞生了微缩至25克的“半两粮票”，单只生煎或一小碗馄饨皆可单独购买。这种微观消费模式源于气候与设施：北方冬季需整百斤囤积白菜土豆，上海湿热易腐且无冰箱，但常年开放的弄堂菜摊使居民得以每日少买、顿顿求鲜；即便切带鱼，上海人家也习惯斜切以在视觉上放大面积。在公共交往中，上海人对效率的追求表现为提前调换公交车与地铁站位、公用电话亭旁掐表催促，以及口头禅“划算”所代表的成本效益考量。 这种锱铢必较的实用主义在建筑空间中被进一步固化。石库门建筑因1937年“八一三事变”后大量难民涌入租界而高度切割，多户共居一栋楼促成了独门分装水表与严密的人际界限。嘉宾们指出，上海人信奉“我不占你便宜，你也别占我便宜”和“救急不救穷”的规则，虽然在外人看来显得清冷孤立、充满防备，但在拥挤逼仄的生存空间中，冷峻的礼貌与清晰的分寸感恰恰是维系长期共处的自律机制。 方言退场与城市趋同：流动时代下的身份消蚀 (16:16) 曾经以上海话为绝对主导的城市空间，如今在商业大厦与市中心公共场所已全面让位于普通话。自1990年代房地产热潮与跨区域人口调动以来，年轻一代对上海话普遍出现“听得懂却不会说”的断层。与民国时期外来移民必须学讲当地方言以融入商贸不同，当代新居民接受全国统一的普通话教育，缺乏主动习得吴语的动力与环境，甚至市区居民整月遇不到母语对话者。 嘉宾们认为，方言不仅是语音腔调，更是一整套独特的词汇系统与思维范式，例如上海话中的“皮夹子”、“钞票”等生活词汇承载着本地经验。当建筑格局在全国范围内标准化，声音景观亦被统一的普通话取代，盲人置身现代都市甚至无法分辨身在何城。人口流动虽是不可阻挡的历史必然，但也令城市不可逆地丧失了地域文化辨识度与历史记忆。 风味哲学与匮乏烙印：味觉记忆的心理与科学审视 (21:33) 对于美食的探索往往超越甜美适口，走向土地与气候凝结的风土本质。陈晓卿所推崇的风味追求涵盖苦味与草腥等非均质刺激，如同云南菜中利用牛消化物调制的“苦撒”，初尝极苦继而回甘；而独立菜市场非标陈列的偶然惊喜，更非标准化超市所能替代。然而，个体对美味的感知常受童年匮乏经历的深刻规训。在物质极度匮乏年代，偷偷分食芒果引发的道德羞耻，或是躲在幽暗床底偷吃香蕉的隐秘刺激，在成年后演化为极端矛盾的“匮乏心理”：一面是享受美好事物时的负罪感与护食本能，另一面则是砸碎储蓄罐暴食三盘炒饼的补偿性放纵。 关于肉食形态与风味本质，中餐依据筷子与火候切配小块，西餐则依赖刀叉分割大肉。围绕近年来兴起的“人造肉”（实验室干细胞培养肉）热潮，虽然资本竞逐且早在丘吉尔时代便有预言，但目前的生物技术仅能合成基础蛋白质营养，无法复刻自然生长周期、水草饲养与复杂代谢孕育的真正美味。分子美食学正尝试破译舌尖受体的化学反应机制，但在风味科学完全攻克之前，机械生产仍难以替代自然造物的味觉体验。 市井烟火与海派时尚：逼仄日常中的体面坚守 (59:52) 旧时上海的生活环境极度狭窄，人均居住面积一度仅约四平方米，导致私人边界与公共弄堂完全重叠。盛夏傍晚市民全家涌上桥头纳凉，甚至清晨要面对石库门倒马桶的恶臭。然而，居民穿睡衣上街并非邋遢，而是弄堂作为“延伸起居室”的默认规则，加之睡衣是当时少有带条纹格纹花色的衣物。在极其拥挤的物质条件下，上海市民依然维系着对仪容修饰的执着追求。 海派时尚深植于平民阶层。从浦东川沙裁缝白手起家创办鸿翔时装，到普通弄堂母亲凭借巧手复刻画报上的彼得潘领，乃至申新纺织厂的女工每日清晨画眉涂口红上班，皆体现出自发的审美自尊。伴随1990年代初口红进入市场、1994至1995年家用热水器普及使沐浴喷香水成为可能，上海逐步建立起现代消费习惯；而相较于赴美归来者的随意，赴日返沪者所带回的精细修饰，亦进一步强化了东亚高密度都市中对体面形象的恪守。 本期节目通过生活微观剖面展现了上海在精细计算与市井体面之间的张力，但关于现代标准化与人口流动是否终将彻底消解地域方言与本土生活方式的特质，对谈并未给出确切答案，留下了兼具怀旧与现实关照的开放性思考。

[1:47] Are you finished yet? Are you done yet? [6:05] 许子东: It's not worth it, it's not worth it. [8:58] 周轶君: 我不占你便宜，你也别占我便宜。 [8:58] 周轶君父母: 救急不救穷 [18:41] 青山遮不住，毕竟东流去 [21:33] 那一年的天地 [31:50] 您昨天没来，我特意从新发地给您留了极新鲜的笋！ [33:27] 陈晓卿母亲: 千万别跟别人走，哪怕别人给你再好吃的东西也绝不能去。 [33:27] 陈晓卿: 那个拿好吃的东西来拐骗我的坏人，怎么到现在还不来？！ [51:00] 比尔·盖茨: Oh, surprise [55:20] 陈丹青: 在上海像个陌生人，在任何地方都像个陌生人 [57:15] 窦文涛: 这真是艺术家的理由

[0:00] For example, if Shanghainese people [0:02] today call you an "outsider," [0:03] isn't there a bit of a condescending [0:06] tone to it? [0:07] Nowadays, it seems intellectuals in [0:09] Shanghai don't really use the term " [0:12] outsider"; that usually comes from the [0:14] lower-class city dwellers. [0:16] Hmm, [0:17] only those in the working-class strata [0:19] would say it like that. [0:20] Northerners are like this; northerners [0:22] are rough. They can't stand how [0:24] meticulous Shanghainese people are. [0:25] Shanghainese are so detail-oriented in [0:27] everything they do. For instance, the [0:29] most striking example of this for me [0:30] was the "half-liang" food stamp. Back [0:32] in the day, if you went to Shanghai and [0:33] saw half a liang, you’d be stunned, [0:34] wondering what you could even buy with [0:35] that. [0:36] Is this "half-liang" really proof of [0:37] Shanghainese meticulousness? Right? [0:39] Only Shanghai had it. [0:41] Because the one who mentioned this [0:42] half-liang food stamp the most was Lao [0:44] She's son; he talked about it often. [0:45] Hmm, [0:46] I’ve also written articles about this [0:48] online. Because I lived in the North [0:50] for many years, for a long time. In [0:51] terms of their... [0:53] So, the North and the South—or rather [0:55] , the North and Shanghai—actually [0:58] have many... [0:59] different living habits. What does the [1:02] "half-liang" actually mean? It means [1:04] Shanghai had these half-liang items, [1:06] while Beijing didn't back when things [1:08] were rationed. [1:08] It's just rough, we call it rough. [1:10] For example, a small bowl of wontons is [1:12] half a liang. Hmm, [1:14] so in the afternoon, you could have a [1:16] small bowl of wontons or a mooncake, [1:17] and a single mooncake would be sold by [1:19] the liang. But in the North, they sold [1:21] cakes in bulk—they sold by the jin, [1:23] like "give me three jin of mooncakes." [1:24] Hmm, [1:26] For instance, with fried dough sticks, [1:27] you'd order "two jin of dough sticks." [1:29] But in Shanghai, you’d buy just one [1:31] piece, which was half a liang, and buy [1:33] it individually. Buying individually [1:35] was quite early in Shanghai, so back [1:37] then a Northerner would be seen as [1:39] funny; they'd joke, "Give me a bowl of [1:41] wontons," and end up with 20 bowls [1:43] brought out in front of them. [1:44] Because in the North, everything was [1:46] ordered in large quantities. [1:47] Still, Shanghainese are meticulous. For [1:50] example, back in my early years going [1:52] to Shanghai—and I went there quite [1:53] often—using public phones was common, [1:55] right? [1:55] Making a call in Beijing versus making [1:57] a call in Shanghai, there was something [1:59] very interesting. There would always be [2:01] an old lady hovering right next to you, [2:03] waiting for the phone. Sometimes when I [2:05] was making calls, I'd finish with one [2:06] person, then I'd call someone else, [2:07] making consecutive calls, right? Before [2:09] you’d even finished one call, she’d [2:11] be tapping on you and speaking in [2:12] Shanghainese, saying, "Are you finished [2:14] yet?""Are you done yet?" [2:16] At first, I didn't understand it. [2:18] I just felt like she was constantly [2:20] trying to annoy me. Take making phone [2:22] calls for commission, you want to [2:23] finish them all quickly for high [2:25] efficiency, and the system keeps [2:26] prompting you on how many you've made. [2:28] In Beijing, no one would prompt you; if [2:29] they did, you'd start a fight, asking " [2:31] What are you trying to do?" [2:32] I'm just making a call, aren't you just [2:34] causing trouble? But in Shanghai, don't [2:36] you find people very practical? One, [2:38] two, three—they add it up for you [2:40] right then and there. [2:41] A classmate of mine in Shanghai once [2:43] told me that a taxi driver didn't want [2:46] to take them because he was about to [2:48] clock out and go home, saying "Look, [2:50] it's time for me to go home, I even [2:52] bought crabs to eat," and he started [2:54] taking the bag out. But nowadays, [2:57] seeing so much online, I really think [3:00] in our current era of dieting, Shanghai [3:03] people are just great. Their whole [3:07] approach—you don't need to eat that [3:09] many crabs, you know what I mean? You [3:11] don't need to, and Shanghai people buy [3:14] groceries... [3:15] There are no such small portions in the [3:17] North; they really just grab a tiny [3:19] handful. Isn't that actually just what [3:21] you're going to eat? I think this [3:22] aligns well with today's lifestyle and [3:24] is environmentally friendly. [3:25] Many things in Shanghai can't be stored [3:27] because it's hot and humid. [3:28] What is it? I've lived in the North; [3:31] when autumn comes, there are no produce [3:32] markets in the winter. Beijing didn't [3:34] have them either. [3:35] Right. [3:36] So we would be rationed vegetables. [3:39] Families would have hundreds of pounds [3:40] of Chinese cabbage, and workplaces [3:41] would distribute potatoes and such to [3:43] get through the winter. But because [3:44] Shanghai has a mild climate, these [3:46] small produce markets are right next [3:48] door; there's a market right beside my [3:51] house, sometimes even in a storefront. [3:53] They just buy a little bit of stuff and [3:55] cook it. Back then, there were no [3:57] refrigerators at home, so they would [3:59] buy things in very small amounts to [4:01] ensure everything was fresh, which they [4:03] could do thanks to the conditions. [4:05] Go and observe, is it true that [4:07] Shanghai people have smaller appetites [4:09] and eat less? [4:10] Appetite, appetite. [4:12] Northerners are a bit smaller, just a [4:15] little bit. They are definitely a bit [4:16] smaller; in Shanghai, it's that they [4:18] serve less food, not that people have [4:19] small appetites. I know, because I went [4:21] to Shanghai in my early years. [4:23] There is a traditional Chinese dish [4:24] found in both the North and the South: [4:26] hairtail fish. Braised hairtail. [4:28] Because when we were young, the only [4:30] fish available in all of China were [4:32] hairtail and yellow croaker; we didn't [4:34] even know what grouper or other fish [4:36] were. When Northerners serve hairtail, [4:38] they usually cut it. Two inches would [4:40] be considered stingy; they’d cut a [4:41] large piece three inches long, just [4:43] chop it right up. No matter if it's [4:44] braised or deep-fried, in Shanghai, [4:46] they slice it at an angle. [4:47] Yeah, when we were kids, it was always [4:49] sliced at an angle. The first time I [4:52] saw it sliced at an angle, I felt kind [4:54] of insulted. I said, "You give me, you [4:56] give me a piece," and they sliced it at [4:58] an angle. Then my brain quickly [5:00] realized, it's just sliced at an angle [5:01] to look bigger, but there isn't much [5:03] there, right? [5:04] They slice it at an angle, so it’s [5:06] special. Because this hairtail, the way [5:08] we eat it is, you take this big piece [5:10] and use your teeth to bite off that top [5:13] layer, the dorsal fin part—that's the [5:15] prickliest part. You have to slice it [5:17] at an angle, otherwise, it has many [5:19] broken bones; if you slice it straight, [5:21] if you slice the hairtail straight, the [5:22] bones aren't broken, but if you slice [5:24] it at an angle, there are lots of [5:26] broken bones in the meat. It's annoying [5:28] and hard to eat. [5:30] I think your analysis of this matter is [5:33] very Shanghainese. [5:34] Living in Shanghai, just [5:36] your foundation is still Shanghainese, [5:39] born in Shanghai. [5:40] Every local person would ponder this. [5:42] I always ponder this, why slice it at [5:45] an angle? Every custom must have a [5:46] reason; maybe slicing it at an angle [5:48] makes it look like more—you see, [5:49] there are many things like that. [5:51] This is the first time I've heard this, [5:53] teacher; it’s very interesting. [5:54] Things we’ve become accustomed to, [5:56] they see from a different perspective. [5:58] Like a few days ago, I was with someone [6:00] from the 90s, a "Guangdong-to-Shanghai" [6:02] person, there are many of them in [6:04] Shanghai now. [6:05] Then they told me about that detail, [6:07] and I was quite shocked too. I felt [6:09] like I had never thought about it. I [6:10] said, "You take the subway, and when [6:12] you reach your stop," he said the [6:13] person behind you will tap you and ask, [6:14] "Are you getting off or not?""If you're [6:16] not getting off, let’s swap places, [6:17] or just let me pass." In other words, [6:19] he was surprised by this sense of order [6:20] Shanghainese people have. It’s that [6:22] you [6:23] there's something hidden here called [6:25] efficiency. [6:26] I mean, they anticipate and plan toward [6:28] high efficiency, thinking it through [6:29] clearly. [6:30] I said when I was a kid, there were no [6:31] subways; we took buses, and it was [6:33] always like this. Before arriving at [6:34] the stop, everyone would automatically [6:36] swap positions. [6:37] Positions all swapped and ready. Yeah, [6:39] isn't that a very natural thing? [6:42] Because this place, Shanghai, when it [6:45] first started to develop—I once read [6:47] in a document that before the [6:49] concessions were established in [6:51] Shanghai, the old city of Shanghai [6:54] actually lacked a concept of a city. On [6:59] rainy days, it would be extremely muddy [7:02] , and the wealthy would just take a [7:04] sedan chair or a horse-drawn carriage. [7:07] But when they went outside and saw the [7:09] concessions—the main roads in the [7:11] International Settlement, the main [7:13] roads in the French Concession, and the [7:16] numbered roads from one to four. They [7:18] were stunned; Western developments were [7:21] coming in, and the roads were so smooth [7:24] and level. How could these carriages [7:26] have springs and be so light and [7:28] convenient? As for the houses along [7:31] these newly developed roads, they began [7:34] building these Shikumen houses that [7:36] blended Chinese and Western styles. [7:41] Everything was better than the old city [7:43] , so this contrast, as Mr. Zhu Xingjian [7:46] said, was that as soon as he boarded [7:48] the train from Nanjing and heard the [7:51] Shanghainese talking, the phrase he [7:53] always heard was "is it worth it?" [7:57] Hearing that sound, he knew he was [7:59] about to reach Shanghai. [8:00] That’s what it means; they are always [8:03] in this state of comparison. The [8:05] Shanghainese here are special; they [8:07] don't say much on the surface, but [8:09] inside, they are calculating. [8:11] Take our Professor Xu Zidong, for [8:13] example; if you stay with him for a few [8:14] days, the most frequently used phrase [8:16] is "it's not worth it, it's not worth [8:18] it, it's not worth it." [8:19] Exactly. [8:20] That’s just how it is. [8:22] So, this made me think of a question: [8:24] in the context of Chinese tradition [8:27] from the past to the present, Shanghai [8:30] is probably the only place where such a [8:32] unique architectural anomaly appeared. [8:35] Look at Beijing; it’s always been [8:37] courtyard houses, but in Shanghai, you [8:40] get the Shikumen. [8:41] These Shikumen houses, you could say [8:44] they are neither purely Chinese nor [8:46] Western; they have Chinese [8:48] characteristics, yet they feature many [8:50] Western decorative patterns, with a [8:52] large number built back in the 1920s [8:54] and 30s. This has a representative [8:58] meaning; it’s like Shanghai added [9:00] this new category of housing, [9:02] representing its architectural response [9:04] to modern Western and foreign cultural [9:07] influences. They really knew how to [9:10] utilize space; Shikumen are incredible [9:12] at space utilization. I’ve actually [9:14] stayed in one recently, a hotel that [9:16] was converted from a Shikumen. You [9:18] enter a very small courtyard, and then [9:21] it’s three stories stacked upward; [9:23] the small spaces at the bottom are tiny [9:25] , but they make such great use of the [9:27] area. When I was filming there last [9:30] time, I visited a Shikumen that wasn't [9:32] for the wealthy; it was home to many [9:35] families. I saw it with my own eyes— [9:38] good heavens, the water meters were [9:40] packed densely, one for each room. Back [9:43] then, they had public sinks, but now [9:45] every room has its own meter, and they [9:47] truly can live side-by-side without [9:49] infringing upon one another. [9:51] Well, I guess I'll have to get this [9:53] written down. [9:54] That’s how Shanghai people ended up [9:56] the way they are. [9:57] I think I calculate things very clearly [9:59] . [9:59] Right, the sense of boundaries is very [10:02] strong. [10:02] It’s like, I won't take advantage of [10:04] you, and you shouldn't take advantage [10:06] of me. Growing up in my family, I [10:08] don’t remember much of my parents’ [10:10] teachings, but I do remember one thing [10:12] they kept repeating. If you borrow [10:14] money, you must return it within 24 [10:16] hours, and when you lend money, lend to [10:19] those in a rush, not the poor. If [10:20] someone needs money urgently, you can [10:22] lend it; but if they are poor and have [10:24] nothing, you definitely shouldn't. [10:26] Often, as you just mentioned, for the [10:29] petty-bourgeoisie in Shanghai, their [10:31] attitude toward outsiders needs to be [10:34] viewed dialectically. On one hand, [10:37] there might be some discrimination, but [10:39] on the other hand, they see people as " [10:41] unreliable" by Beijing standards, [10:44] because they have a standard. [10:46] They feel you aren't careful or don't [10:48] follow the rules; take me, for example, [10:51] a rough Northerner—I remember once [10:53] spending a few days with a Shanghainese [10:56] person. Do you know how I felt in the [10:59] end? A bit like a child. Like I wasn't [11:03] even walking very steadily. They really [11:05] are what you call "sharp" and " [11:07] clear-headed." They plan everything [11:09] ahead, saying, "Oh, that’s not right, [11:11] this is not right," and I’d be [11:13] clueless, wondering, "Why buy it here?" [11:15] but then you realize they were right [11:17] all along. I wondered how their minds [11:20] could be so sharp, so I felt like a [11:22] toddler struggling to walk. That’s [11:24] the charm of culture; China is a vast [11:27] country with rich languages, and local [11:29] cultures all have their differences. [11:33] Saying people from a certain region [11:35] share common traits may not be strictly [11:38] scientific, but no one can deny that [11:40] people from the same land have a unique [11:43] flavor. So, you see, even if you don't [11:47] talk about the past, it’s all related [11:49] to the past. Why does it seem like all [11:51] my friends, including Master Ma, keep [11:54] saying Shanghai is great, and so many [11:56] people want to visit on weekends? But [11:58] my feeling is...so I'd like to ask [12:00] Professor Jin and Yi Jun, regarding [12:03] Shanghai today, the impression it gives [12:05] me is... [12:06] I really want to connect with this city [12:09] . You know? But I feel like I have no [12:12] real connection to it. When I see this [12:15] city, I really like it. The chance of [12:18] finding a good restaurant here is much [12:20] higher than in Beijing, you know? The [12:22] food is delicious, right? There are [12:25] skyscrapers, local life, French plane [12:28] trees, and nice walks. I like it so [12:31] much, I even want to live here, but [12:33] then... [12:34] Inevitably, you sense a kind of [12:37] coldness, a kind of... [12:39] Inaccessibility. [12:40] Right, just like you said, isn't it? [12:43] Look, every Shanghainese person I meet [12:45] has a kind of cold politeness, or what [12:47] you call a sense of boundaries. It’s [12:50] all very good, right? But you always [12:52] feel that if you really lived here, [12:54] would it be a bit lonely? So I wonder [12:57] about many outsiders now. [12:58] Hmm. [13:00] When they come to Shanghai, do they [13:02] have this kind of feeling? [13:04] They probably do, but after a long time [13:06] , you get used to it and aren't so [13:09] sensitive. It's the issue we mentioned [13:14] earlier; most Shanghainese keep to [13:16] themselves. [13:18] They just look after themselves, like [13:20] we said, because of the abnormal [13:22] conditions of the past, like the [13:24] Shikumen we mentioned. [13:26] Why were they so crowded? Originally, [13:28] these houses were for one family, but [13:31] after the August 13th incident, a [13:33] massive number of people fled into the [13:35] concessions. The whole country came to [13:38] the concessions; it was a safe haven, [13:40] so landlords started renting out every [13:42] available space. This overcrowding [13:44] forced people to try their best to draw [13:46] clear boundaries between one another. [13:49] Or as Zhou Yijun said, we don't [13:51] interfere with each other. But the [13:53] problem is, now when you go to Shanghai [13:55] , I suspect you won't really encounter [13:58] only Shanghainese; everyone speaks [14:00] Mandarin now. It's very hard to find [14:03] the original flavor; it's lost. [14:05] I remember in my early years, when I [14:07] first came, I was chatting with [14:08] Professor Jin and asked if the Shanghai [14:10] Writers 'Association was still at 675 [14:12] Julu Road. See, I remember it so [14:14] clearly because my first trip to [14:16] Shanghai was specifically to go to 675 [14:18] Julu Road, and that road was incredibly [14:20] long. One thing that’s really [14:22] daunting about Shanghai is that the [14:23] roads are so long. Sometimes when you [14:25] get on a road, you're still a long way [14:26] from your destination. You’ve got a [14:28] long way to go. In Beijing, once [14:29] you’re on a road, no matter how long [14:31] the alley is, it won’t take you more [14:32] than ten minutes. In Shanghai, you [14:34] could walk until your ankles give out [14:36] and still not be there. [14:38] So, the first time I went to Shanghai, [14:40] the first issue I faced was the [14:42] language. In the early 80s, many older [14:46] Shanghainese people couldn’t speak [14:48] Mandarin at all. Even if they strained [14:50] to talk to you, you couldn’t [14:52] understand them. When taxis first [14:54] appeared, the drivers were always [14:56] locals—this was true in Beijing and [14:58] Shanghai. Outsiders only started doing [15:00] this tough job later; it used to be a [15:02] lucrative gig. So in Shanghai, the [15:04] first time I took a taxi, I spoke to [15:07] the driver. I thought, there's no way [15:09] someone wouldn't understand me. If I [15:12] just speak my Mandarin slowly, that [15:14] should be fine, right? I said, "Turn [15:17] right," and the driver said to me... " [15:19] Zuowei." Oh, I heard "turn left." I [15:23] said, "Look,' turn left, 'how do you [15:25] say that?" [15:25] Did you hear it as "turn left"? [15:27] Yeah, turn left. [15:28] I said, "Did you understand' turn right [15:30] '?" He said, "Left." I felt like he was [15:32] messing with me. I asked, "What are you [15:34] trying to do?" And then he said... [15:36] Shanghainese people are very [15:37] interesting. They don't use "left turn" [15:39] or "right turn," they use "big turn" [15:40] and "small turn." [15:41] Shanghainese people also don't use "go [15:43] south" or "go north" for roads. I [15:44] haven't seen it. What is this? How do [15:47] they call a left turn? "Big"? How do [15:51] you read it? " [15:51] Left" is "big." [15:53] Left is big, right is small. [15:55] Hmm. [15:56] Then he said "small turn," and I was [15:58] like... [15:58] Small turn, you mean small, so you mean [16:00] right turn. I said "right turn," and he [16:02] was actually echoing me saying "right [16:04] turn." [16:04] Oh. [16:05] But I heard it as "turn left." [16:08] I heard a story about a Shanghainese [16:10] person who went to Hong Kong and also [16:12] said "turn right" while trying hard to [16:14] speak Cantonese. I...I want to say, [16:16] actually, the language issue is [16:18] something I find quite heartbreaking. [16:20] When I go back to Shanghai now, I can [16:22] barely speak Shanghainese even in the [16:24] city center. [16:25] Why? [16:26] First, when you open your mouth to talk [16:28] to anyone, you aren't sure if they can [16:30] understand you. You don't know how they [16:32] will respond. If you go to any shop, oh [16:34] , I definitely speak Mandarin first. [16:36] You mean Shanghainese people feel a bit [16:38] lost now? [16:39] It’s not feeling lost, it’s just [16:41] the objective reality that we’ve had [16:43] Mandarin education for over four [16:45] generations now. Since the Reform and [16:47] Opening-up, Mandarin has become the [16:48] mainstream across the whole country. [16:50] And this city, it is actually losing [16:52] its personality. [16:53] Losing its personality in what way? You [16:56] , for example, take a blind person, you [16:57] bring them into a city, and all they [16:59] hear is Mandarin, they wouldn't even [17:01] know if they’ve left home or not. For [17:03] instance, you go to Guangdong, you’d [17:05] expect to hear Cantonese, but if [17:06] everyone there just speaks Mandarin, [17:08] it’s just like the architecture [17:10] nationwide now—it’s all [17:12] standardized, and the city’s unique [17:14] character is gone. [17:15] Truly gone. And now, even young people [17:18] in Shanghai, the post-80s and 90s [17:20] generations, speak Mandarin among [17:22] themselves. [17:22] And they can’t even hit the right [17:24] pronunciations for Shanghainese words. [17:26] Their language has changed, but do you [17:27] think their personalities have changed [17:29] too? [17:29] They will lose a lot. [17:31] It will change along with the language. [17:33] Yes, exactly, it will change according [17:35] to the language. That’s why I’ve [17:37] been calling for the protection of our [17:38] dialects. Shanghainese is a truly [17:41] excellent dialect system. Because [17:43] dialects aren’t just about tone and [17:45] inflection; Northerners often mistake [17:47] dialects for just an accent. That’s [17:50] not it. For example, most Beijingers [17:52] can understand Hebei dialect; it’s [17:54] just a different accent. But a truly [17:56] good dialect lies in its vocabulary. In [17:59] my understanding of dialects, [18:01] Shanghainese is unique in its [18:02] terminology. [18:03] Shanghainese people don't use the word [18:05] for "wallet," they call it "pijiazi." [18:07] They don’t say "RMB" or "money," they [18:09] call it "chaopiao." It’s just that [18:11] they always... [18:12] We used to call it "dongdithong." [18:14] That’s true, too. When I was a kid, I [18:16] didn’t even have a wallet; I just [18:17] shoved it in my pants pocket, no " [18:18] pijiazi" at all. [18:19] No, no, it’s like this: it is within [18:21] this choice of language that its [18:23] individuality exists. Since I work with [18:25] words, I’m very passionate about this [18:27] , and I’m always calling for the [18:29] protection of dialects. But there is a [18:31] misfortune; take Shanghainese, for [18:33] example—it is basically dying out. [18:36] Because for this generation of post-80s [18:38] and 90s, the best they can do is [18:39] understand it but not speak it—they [18:41] can understand it but not speak it. By [18:43] the next generation, it will be gone. [18:46] Because... [18:47] It’s that simple. [18:48] Because back in the 90s, when the [18:50] property market first opened up. Many [18:53] wealthy tycoons from other regions. [18:55] Came to Shanghai to buy property, often [18:58] buying dozens of units at a time, and [19:00] there was also a large influx of [19:02] officials from other provinces [19:03] transferred to Shanghai for work [19:05] because the city was expanding. So, [19:07] after these two groups arrived in [19:10] Shanghai, I believe they actually [19:12] played a certain role. What was it? [19:15] It’s that Shanghainese isn't allowed, [19:17] because there's no learning it either, [19:19] since schools nowadays don't... " [19:21] Please speak Mandarin." You go anywhere [19:24] now, you walk into an office building [19:26] and hear nothing but Mandarin, because [19:28] so many people have come from out of [19:30] town. And from their perspective, [19:33] it’s not unfair, because everyone is [19:35] educated in Mandarin. Why should I have [19:38] to speak your dialect just because I [19:40] came here? In the past, back in the [19:42] 1920s and 30s, if you went to do [19:44] business in any city across the country [19:46] , you were expected to learn the local [19:49] tongue. That was the rule. [19:51] When in Rome, do as the Romans do. [19:53] But nowadays, due to the situation I [19:56] mentioned, we never used to see so many [19:58] intellectuals or business owners [20:00] arriving all at once like this. In the [20:03] past, people from all walks of life [20:05] trickled in slowly, speaking various [20:07] accents—Shandong dialect, Shanghai [20:09] dialect, Suzhou dialect, Ningbo dialect [20:11] —everyone had different accents. It [20:13] was the same in other cities. [20:15] The mountains cannot block the river [20:17] from flowing eastward. I think it’s [20:19] very difficult to make such an appeal [20:20] now; it's hard to get anything done. [20:22] This is a global issue; cities around [20:24] the world are becoming more and more [20:26] alike. I spent seven years in Guangzhou [20:29] twenty years ago, and back then, only [20:31] our Guangdong Radio station compound [20:33] spoke Mandarin. [20:34] It was only Mandarin within the [20:35] compound, but outside, everything was [20:37] in Cantonese. Yet today, even Guangzhou [20:39] is the same. [20:40] I hear them all speaking it. [20:42] I feel that, on one hand, as a [20:43] Shanghainese person, you have an [20:45] emotional attachment to the dialect, so [20:47] you naturally feel a sense of loss and [20:48] unhappiness. But on the other hand, I [20:50] truly think that sometimes we need to [20:52] have a more tolerant and inclusive [20:54] mindset. Why? Because this population [20:57] mobility is truly unstoppable. When I [20:59] return to Shanghai now, apart from the [21:01] friends I grew up with, most of the [21:02] people I meet aren't Shanghainese. [21:04] Some of my relatives always talk about [21:05] driving the "outsiders" away, but I [21:07] tell them, "If you drive them away, I [21:08] won't have any friends left in Shanghai [21:10] ! My friends are all from out of town." [21:12] Some of my friends say they live right [21:14] in the city center, but they haven't [21:15] met a single Shanghainese person all [21:17] month. [21:17] I remember when I was in college, I [21:19] brought a friend from the Northeast [21:20] back to Shanghai, and within a week, he [21:22] could more or less understand [21:23] Shanghainese. Because he heard it [21:25] constantly—he heard it all the time. [21:26] But now, it’s not that he’s unable [21:27] to learn; it's because you just don't [21:29] hear it anymore. I know friends who [21:30] have lived there for years and still [21:31] don't understand it, because they never [21:32] get exposed to the Shanghai dialect. Oh [21:33] , you're really talking about this [21:36] pursuit. You see, this concept of " [21:38] seeking flavors," I find it really [21:41] interesting. Some people take this [21:43] seeking to an extreme level. Take [21:45] Xiaoqing, for example; do you know [21:47] what's interesting about him? Uh, this [21:50] so-called "seeking flavors" isn't about [21:52] just any good flavor, [21:53] but rather, unique flavors. [21:56] Sometimes, even the flavors Xiaoqing [21:58] seeks, by our standards, might even be [22:01] bitter, [22:01] or even pungent. [22:03] I’d even take this concept of flavor [22:06] a step further. Don't you find human [22:08] taste buds interesting? When we smell [22:09] something, like fragrance or sweetness, [22:11] Mm. [22:12] We all recognize those. But sometimes, [22:15] how should I put it? For instance, I [22:17] have a friend in Taiwan who makes tea. [22:20] I’m still not sure if I should [22:22] believe his theory, but he’s clearly [22:25] someone who seeks out certain flavors, [22:27] and he tells you. He says that, [22:29] actually, tea just needs to be clean. [22:31] It’s about hygiene; Taiwanese people [22:33] are quite particular about that. As [22:35] long as it's hygienic, that's enough. [22:37] He says, look at how you all drink [22:39] Pu'er or whatever else, but I feel [22:40] every type of tea has its own unique [22:42] character. [22:42] Uh-huh, [22:43] I completely agree. [22:45] He shared this theory, and later I [22:46] heard it from a wine expert too. I [22:48] think this has elevated to a [22:50] philosophical level. As far as we're [22:51] concerned, whether it tastes good or [22:53] not is another matter entirely. He said [22:55] , think about it, [22:56] this is the soil from that specific [22:58] year. [22:59] Mm, [22:59] how much rain fell that year. Even the [23:02] wind of that year, the air of that year [23:04] , brewed into this plant, and it [23:07] absorbed it all. [23:08] So, what you’re tasting is the heaven [23:10] and earth of that year. [23:12] Right, something unique. [23:13] Exactly, I completely agree. Even if it [23:16] tastes bad, that’s even more [23:18] significant. [23:18] Of course, that year's gift to you is [23:21] exactly that. Mm, more importantly, [23:24] many of the hierarchies we’ve [23:26] established are imposed on you by [23:28] commerce. For example, some kind of [23:33] rating or star level, that’s [23:35] commercial. People follow that so they [23:39] won't go wrong. [23:40] I don't even know for myself what [23:42] tastes good or bad anymore. Right, food [23:45] is equal. When you eat something, [23:49] it truly is equal. There’s nothing [23:53] particularly expensive or special; that [23:56] sense of scarcity is all created by [23:58] those in trade, in business, in the [24:01] food industry. It’s about taking the [24:03] most ordinary things and making you [24:06] feel [24:06] that you can have so many different [24:08] interpretations of them. Like when he [24:11] mentioned his 50%failure rate. [24:13] Right. [24:14] So, how do you view that failure? [24:16] Personally, I think he didn't do a good [24:19] job. If he had put more effort into it, [24:21] or if it wasn't this season—if he had [24:24] waited a bit longer, it could have been [24:26] better. The point is, it’s not that [24:28] things don't have good or bad qualities [24:31] , [24:31] but that whether something is cheap or [24:33] expensive, it actually has its ups and [24:35] downs. Yeah. [24:36] For example, in Guangdong, we have [24:38] those Hong Kong-style snacks like [24:40] pudding cakes, [24:41] which are the cheapest and most common [24:43] desserts, but even those have good and [24:45] bad versions. Yeah. [24:47] Stinky tofu is also famous; tofu has [24:49] its good and bad varieties too, right? [24:53] Maybe, but the premise of our [24:55] discussion is that you need to be able [24:57] to taste that quality. I have a friend [25:02] who makes me incredibly envious. I [25:06] always thought only hearing had " [25:09] perfect pitch," [25:12] a perfect sense of hearing that can [25:14] distinguish every single note. Turns [25:17] out, taste has it too. [25:19] He even took a test—an [25:21] internationally recognized one—and he [25:24] said he has a perfect sense of taste. I [25:27] asked, "What does that mean?" [25:29] He just said, "Well, the way I [25:31] experience a sip of water is completely [25:33] different from how you do, even from [25:35] the same glass."" [25:36] I can perfectly distinguish the subtle [25:38] differences in the water—this cup [25:40] versus that cup—let alone food." So, [25:43] he later opened a very successful [25:45] restaurant, mostly serving coffee. His [25:48] hobby is playing with coffee. [25:50] People who are into coffee or wine [25:52] usually... [25:52] Yes, people who are into red wine just [25:54] ... [25:54] Is that so? Or is it because they have [25:56] that ability that they get into it? [25:58] People like that—such people are [25:59] truly blessed. [26:00] You know, looking back, I think people [26:03] like me are often quite pathetic. [26:05] Because when it comes to the "sense of [26:08] taste" reaching such a delicate level, [26:10] sometimes it feels like we aren't as [26:12] refined as others, and so people like [26:14] me can sometimes become prey to con [26:16] artists. [26:17] Yeah. [26:18] You didn't ask, but con artists use the [26:20] same rhetoric. [26:21] But the scammers are here too. I've [26:24] heard many lectures about this, this, [26:26] this red wine. You know, humans are [26:29] such a spineless species, incredibly [26:31] easy to hypnotize. They say, "At the [26:34] tip of your tongue, you'll feel a bit [26:36] of astringency.""Then, draw it in along [26:39] the sides of your tongue. Don't you [26:41] feel the astringency becoming heavier?" [26:44] Oh, you know, I'm actually a fool, you [26:47] know? He says it just like that, and [26:49] truly, you go, "Oh, yes, yes, it is, it [26:52] is!" [26:53] Psychological sensation. [26:54] Right, is it a feeling in your heart? [26:56] You're going to a hypnosis seminar. [26:58] Exactly, so I’m asking, based on what [27:00] you said, do you think you really [27:02] possess that kind of refined [27:03] sensitivity? [27:04] I don’t. I’m definitely far from [27:07] being a food critic, but I have two [27:09] points I prefer. First, I am truly [27:12] passionate about it. I think passion is [27:15] more important than anything else. I [27:17] can mention two films. One is a film [27:20] starring my friend Shen Teng, called* [27:23] Hello Mr. Billionaire*. [27:24] And the other is Hirokazu Kore-eda’s* [27:28] Shoplifters*. [27:29] That day, we had a lot of time before [27:32] watching*Shoplifters*, so I watched* [27:34] Hello Mr. Billionaire*. [27:36] In these two films, *Hello Mr. [27:38] Billionaire*features many, many [27:40] high-end things to eat. Things like [27:45] Boston lobster, geoduck, all sorts of [27:48] sashimi, they ate it all. But you don't [27:52] feel like there’s any real food in it [27:55] . [27:56] The food eaten in*Shoplifters*is a [27:59] croquette. [28:00] Hmm. [28:01] It's just the cheapest deep-fried [28:04] street snack in Japan. After watching [28:08] it, I told my son I wanted to find [28:10] where in Beijing they sell [28:13] croquettes. Just like when I watched* [28:15] Green Book*, I really wanted to eat KFC [28:17] . [28:18] I hadn't had KFC for a long time, [28:19] because in that movie [28:20] you see them eating it with such gusto. [28:23] Eating KFC so deliciously, that’s the [28:26] passion I’m talking about. You first [28:30] have to be interested in it; otherwise, [28:33] no matter what you say, they just—I [28:35] call them "cold-hearted eaters," there [28:37] are people like that. [28:41] They are just unhappy with whatever [28:44] they eat. " [28:45] Is this worth this much money?" Why is [28:49] it like that? They are truly unhappy. [28:54] Or perhaps they think, "I set a price [28:57] tag, this is 80 yuan per person, so it [29:00] has status."" [29:02] You, at three yuan a person, I’m [29:04] eating more high-end than you." They [29:06] rely on this kind of psychological [29:08] suggestion. [29:10] Suggestion, yes. [29:11] Just like you mentioned about [29:12] Daoxiangcun. [29:13] Hmm. [29:14] Right. [29:15] Is Daoxiangcun just like that? I mean, [29:18] I might not think it tastes good, but [29:20] my friends studying in Japan or those [29:23] who have been to Japan—Every time [29:25] they take some back, they eat it and [29:27] get so, so touched. It’s like this [29:30] for me. [29:30] You see, this sense of taste is worth [29:32] pondering. On one hand, there is [29:34] definitely an objective sense of taste, [29:36] your perception of sour, sweet, bitter, [29:38] and spicy. [29:38] But on the other hand, when it reaches [29:41] a more subtle level, it is... [29:43] Hmm. ... [29:44] inseparable from your spirit, memory, [29:46] and emotions. [29:47] Well, I mentioned one point earlier. [29:49] The second point is that I’m now more [29:50] concerned with food as a way to see [29:52] what the place behind that food is like [29:54] . Mm-hmm. [29:55] When a wet market is complex, with [29:57] every vendor displaying their goods in [30:00] their own unique way, I know this is a [30:02] place where people are quite particular [30:05] about their lifestyle. There are other [30:08] places I've been to; I just visited a [30:11] city and went to their wet market. Even [30:13] the signs in the market were all made [30:15] to look [30:16] identical. [30:17] Exactly the same lettering, all " [30:19] So-and-so's Vegetable Stall," and [30:21] everything displayed exactly the same [30:23] way, right down to the layout—I knew [30:25] right then that this place was quite [30:27] lacking in [30:28] cultural diversity. [30:30] Right, and the food there definitely [30:31] won't be good enough. [30:33] So, you can really see the culture of a [30:35] city or a place there. And, I also want [30:37] to say that there is a big difference [30:39] between wet markets and supermarkets. [30:41] What is that difference? Visiting a wet [30:43] market is a bit like browsing an [30:45] independent bookstore. Think about it: [30:46] if we want to buy a book today, going [30:48] to a bookstore is the least efficient [30:49] way. [30:50] Mm-hmm. [30:50] You talk about "searching." If I'm [30:53] searching, I usually have a goal, and [30:55] then I search. If I have a target in [30:57] mind, it's obviously more convenient to [30:58] buy a book online. But why do you go to [31:01] a bookstore? You aren't there to search [31:02] for something; you are there to [31:04] encounter. A chance encounter. [31:05] You want to encounter things like, "Oh, [31:07] I never knew this kind of book existed! [31:08] " [31:08] Exactly, you can have those encounters [31:10] at a wet market. Mm-hmm. [31:11] You can't have those encounters at a [31:13] supermarket, but supermarkets offer a [31:15] different kind of pleasure. Jia, what [31:17] is that like? It's a bit like how many [31:20] people enjoy shopping at IKEA, right? [31:21] Mm-hmm. [31:22] Actually, the pleasure of visiting a [31:24] supermarket is just like the pleasure [31:25] of shopping at IKEA. Right, and what is [31:27] that? You see it all bright and clean, [31:30] with everything arranged neatly, which [31:32] is quite nice—that’s a type of [31:34] pleasure. Both have their own pleasures [31:36] , but if you love food—just like why [31:39] book lovers visit bookstores—you'll [31:41] discover, "I never imagined this kind [31:43] of book existed." Browsing a wet market [31:45] , it's like, "Wow, there’s something [31:47] like this?" That feeling is a surprise. [31:50] And sometimes, you can even see history [31:52] . [31:53] How so? [31:54] Take Yunnan's "zuosa" for example. [31:56] There’s a variety called "bitter sa." [31:59] It’s a bitter seasoning made from the [32:01] intestines near a cow's cecum. [32:03] I haven't had that. [32:05] Ah, it’s quite stimulating. It’s [32:08] very bitter, but it leaves a sweet [32:10] aftertaste, and your saliva production [32:12] becomes exceptionally active. So you [32:15] spend all day walking through the [32:17] market, and now it's all "bitter sa" [32:19] powder. [32:20] Uh-huh. [32:21] Then the proprietress comes over and [32:23] tells you. You-you want this, right? [32:26] Takes out a piece of sausage, wow. [32:29] It’s exactly the encounter he [32:31] described, truly, truly. [32:32] And it’s authentic. [32:34] This is something many places don’t [32:36] sell anymore. [32:36] Hmm. [32:37] Can you understand this kind of [32:39] flavor-seeking? [32:39] Of course. [32:40] Sometimes he’s even seeking out a [32:42] bitter taste. [32:43] Hmm, let me put it to you another way. [32:46] "Oh my, Teacher Chen, you're here! You [32:49] didn't come yesterday, I got some [32:51] bamboo shoots from Xinfadi, they were [32:54] delicious, I put them there, I had to [32:56] buy them." One by one, the fresh bamboo [32:59] shoots—you guys couldn't resist at [33:01] all, he's already eaten one. Still left [33:04] — [33:05] Saving one for you. [33:06] Hmm, those fresh bamboo shoots are so [33:08] delicious, you just throw them into the [33:10] fire, put them directly into the hearth [33:11] to roast, and they become very, very [33:13] sweet. So, this sort of thing requires [33:15] an expert dealing with an expert. For [33:18] example, if we went, of course, they [33:20] wouldn't take it out for me, and even [33:23] if they did, I wouldn't understand it. [33:27] So, I'm curious, you say you have a lot [33:30] of passion, what’s the reason for [33:32] this passion? Because many people say [33:36] that after a certain encounter or [33:39] experience, they start to have a deep [33:41] love for food. Is there something from [33:44] your childhood? That’s a good [33:46] question. [33:47] Right. [33:48] When I was a kid, I was quite something [33:51] ; once, my mom took me on a train. [33:54] Because we had a lot of luggage, she [33:56] made me watch it, and kept telling me, [33:58] "Don't you—""Even if someone gives [34:01] you something delicious, don't follow [34:03] them." [34:04] So, do you remember that kid? I [34:06] remember he disappeared later, he was [34:08] lured away by someone with something [34:10] good to eat. Ah, he was gone for a long [34:13] time before he came back. We ended up [34:15] switching platforms to board the train, [34:18] and I started crying. My mom apologized [34:20] , thinking I had waited too long. [34:23] Right, too long, the child couldn't [34:25] take it mentally. [34:26] Actually, she didn't know why I was [34:28] crying. I was thinking, why hasn't that [34:31] person with the delicious food appeared [34:33] yet? [34:33] That bad guy with the tasty food, why [34:36] hasn't he come yet? He was just born [34:39] for this, right? If a bad guy came and [34:42] offered him a bite, he’d just follow [34:44] along. But I also feel that Teacher [34:47] Xiaoqing isn't the type of " [34:49] aristocratic gourmet" I've seen. [34:51] The kind that talks about tasting a [34:53] delicacy as if they’re describing the [34:55] feeling of a piano concerto, that kind [34:58] of thing—you... [34:59] It's just like those food critics, I [35:00] feel their tongues are like precision [35:02] instruments. If their descriptions can [35:05] be trusted, that is. Something might be [35:07] described as, say, bland, yet smooth [35:09] and not greasy—you know, it's a bit [35:10] like taking a pulse in traditional [35:12] Chinese medicine. You know, I’ve [35:14] always felt that traditional Chinese [35:16] medicine is, how should I put it, very [35:18] difficult to learn. [35:19] Hmm. [35:20] It requires a lot of experience. [35:23] Because, when they talk about a [35:24] slippery or choppy pulse, that kind of [35:26] thing. [35:27] Right, we can only really count the [35:29] heartbeats at most. [35:30] Exactly, how many beats count as [35:32] slippery or choppy, right? Their [35:34] tongues, they can just like, can just [35:36] — [35:36] There aren't many people who can [35:38] actually accept that. I work in mass [35:41] communication; I want to tell people [35:43] things that an average person can [35:45] perceive. [35:46] What makes food alluring to everyone is [35:49] nothing more than— [35:50] Texture, [35:52] Consistency, flavor, and appearance. [35:55] Just these few things. [35:56] Does that include strange flavors? [35:59] A strange flavor is just a type of [36:01] texture. No, let me ask you, because I [36:04] sometimes think—actually, I—sorry, [36:07] Professor Xiaoqing—if you have a line [36:09] , and you're at the extreme high end, [36:12] I'm talking about being numb. I'm [36:14] indifferent, stone-cold. What did you [36:17] call it? Food indifference? " [36:19] Food indifference" actually sounds a [36:21] bit better. I’ve thought about the [36:24] reasons for this later on; it might [36:26] really be related to childhood [36:27] experiences. When I was a kid, my [36:30] family wasn't very wealthy. In those [36:32] days, it was a rare event for my father [36:35] to buy a mango. And a single mango had [36:37] to be shared among all seven people in [36:40] the family. You really had to take a [36:42] knife, cut a slice here, another slice [36:44] underneath, and then carve some out [36:46] from the sides; you had to cut it into [36:48] — [36:49] Fibrous strips? [36:50] Yes. [36:51] No, and the portions weren't even equal [36:54] . My sisters got more, my younger [36:56] sister got more, and I, as the son, got [36:59] the smallest piece. My family favored [37:01] daughters over sons—though you could [37:03] also say it's because boys are— [37:05] Anyway, it's strange. I loved eating [37:08] that mango. I’d save up my saliva, [37:10] thinking it was so delicious. Logically [37:12] speaking, I should have loved it, [37:14] looked forward to it, and hoped for [37:16] more mangoes. [37:17] So what happened later? One time—I [37:19] forgot the reason—I saved up some [37:21] money, saved my allowance, and bought a [37:24] mango for myself. I really do love them [37:26] , so I went and bought one myself. I [37:28] hid it in a corner of the kitchen. Then [37:31] at night, I took it out in secret to [37:33] eat it. I enjoyed the whole mango by [37:35] myself. The feeling of it all being [37:38] mine, that specific taste, rather than [37:40] just eating a tiny slice of a mango—I [37:42] finished the whole thing. [37:44] It turned out I caught her, I came out [37:46] at night and saw her in the kitchen [37:48] eating a mango all by herself. She [37:50] didn't scold me, but I just thought, [37:53] how could she be so selfish? Saving up [37:56] money to buy a mango and eating it in [37:58] the kitchen, not sharing it with her [38:01] sisters. And then this story was told [38:03] over and over again; during my [38:05] upbringing, I think it was brought up [38:08] 3,000 times. Maybe that’s why I have [38:13] such deep feelings about food, a heavy [38:16] burden of guilt, feeling like I don't [38:18] deserve to eat good things, and I feel [38:21] guilty whenever I do. That’s why I [38:26] say I have a spiritual connection with [38:28] you. [38:29] I think this really has a lot to do [38:31] with psychology. When we were little in [38:34] the North, we couldn't get bananas, and [38:37] as for meat, you wouldn't necessarily [38:39] get to eat it even once a week. [38:43] When we finally got a banana, it was [38:45] usually all black, and when I got one [38:48] back then, you know what I liked to do? [38:51] Before my parents or anyone else got [38:54] home, I’d crawl under the bed, into [38:56] that dark space underneath. Then my [38:59] parents would come home, and I could [39:01] see their feet walking back and forth [39:02] while they talked. That’s when I [39:04] would eat the banana. Oh, the thrill of [39:07] hiding away to eat it. Even today, [39:10] whenever something good happens, I like [39:13] to keep it to myself, just quiet, like [39:15] this feeling you have, it's just, oh, I [39:18] later realized it was guilt. No, I [39:21] later saw on a nature show that in [39:23] Africa, there’s this animal, a [39:26] hunting dog or something, that hides a [39:28] piece of meat, checks to see if anyone [39:30] is around, and then eats it slowly when [39:33] no one is there. That’s the [39:35] psychology of scarcity. [39:37] Right? It really was that feeling back [39:40] then, that deliciousness, my goodness. [39:43] So I think Xiaoqing’s childhood [39:45] history was just never having enough to [39:48] eat. [39:48] Hmm. [39:49] Because if I didn't even have that [39:51] opportunity you had. [39:52] The mango. [39:54] The only pocket money my parents ever [39:56] gave me was five cents, just once in my [39:58] entire life. [39:59] So it was impossible for me to even [40:01] have an experience like that. [40:02] Poor child. [40:03] Is it that feeling of enjoying [40:05] something, just like he said, enjoying [40:07] it feels almost like a crime? [40:09] It’s like you feel, how should I put [40:11] it, that you don't deserve it, or the [40:13] feeling that it could be taken away at [40:15] any moment. Oh, you’re talking about [40:17] the best-tasting memory. For me, so I [40:20] still want to ask Teacher Chen a [40:22] question. For example, like when Roland [40:25] was chatting with us, he said if you [40:27] prepare a feast, you should have snacks [40:30] ready, otherwise people will get hungry [40:32] waiting. [40:33] But for me, do you think hunger is a [40:36] necessary condition for deliciousness? [40:38] Because if I want to eat something, [40:41] I'll go hungry for a meal first. [40:43] I think that makes it taste the best. [40:45] If I'm not hungry, I don't think [40:47] anything tastes that great. [40:49] This is a major difference between the [40:51] East and the West. [40:52] How so? [40:53] It's just that Westerners don't get the [40:55] chance to be as hungry as we do. [40:57] That's true. [40:58] I was with a psychologist, Teacher Chen [41:00] Li. [41:01] Teacher Chen Li. [41:02] He has two points of view. One is that [41:05] people who were abused during their [41:07] childhood, especially the oral stage, [41:09] might end up becoming gourmets when [41:11] they grow up. Because they weren't [41:14] fully satisfied, they become foodies. [41:16] I mean, the host. Yes, yes, yes. Well, [41:21] Or a food documentary director. But [41:25] there is another point of view: he [41:27] believes that Chinese people have many [41:30] ways of sharing deliciousness, such as [41:32] savoring the mouthfeel. [41:35] Hmm. [41:36] The feeling on the teeth, whether it's [41:38] springy or not. [41:39] Right. [41:40] Yeah. [41:41] Yeah. [41:42] Many of these things you can't find [41:44] abroad, this feeling of texture, things [41:46] that melt in your mouth—they [41:48] experience it in a very, very detailed [41:51] way. [41:51] Why? Because we didn't have as much of [41:55] that, or perhaps our sense of taste [41:58] itself—he says there's one thing that [42:00] many ethnic groups, only hunting tribes [42:03] have, which is the joy of swallowing. [42:07] Hmm. [42:08] Cai also wrote about this, that [42:11] this satisfying joy of eating is only [42:14] something [42:16] that is unique to people whose material [42:19] resources aren't so abundant, this kind [42:22] of feeling. [42:23] Yes, yes, yes. Oh, what you said is [42:27] just—actually, I'm not worthy of [42:29] being a gourmet, because for me, the [42:32] best thing is wolfing it down. [42:35] The joy, you know, to the point that I [42:38] often tell them my best food memory [42:40] from childhood is stir-fried pancakes. [42:44] Because I couldn't get to eat it as a [42:46] child, when I finally had some good [42:47] stir-fried pancakes, you know, the oily [42:49] shredded pancakes. Hmm. [42:51] Fried in oil, then stir-fried again, [42:54] with shredded cabbage, then sprinkled [42:57] with some dried chili and chili oil. I [42:59] remember it was a few cents or two yuan [43:02] a plate. Once I started liking it, I [43:05] ate it every day for a month. [43:07] Wow. [43:08] Went to eat it every single day, and [43:10] then one day it was pouring rain, a [43:12] heavy downpour. I asked my parents for [43:16] money, they wouldn't give me any, so [43:18] finally, I just smashed my piggy bank, [43:21] grabbed a handful of coins—it was a [43:23] total all-in move, that was my entire [43:26] net worth. Then my mom said it was [43:31] raining so hard the water was up to our [43:34] knees, but I went out in a huff, just [43:36] went for it, and ordered three plates, [43:38] you know? I really showed them. [43:42] And then, [43:44] I was soaked to the bone. [43:45] Exactly. [43:47] Hey, that’s what you call eating to [43:49] your heart's content. It’s what I [43:51] call a love for life; like the [43:52] croquettes in "Shoplifters," they were [43:55] slurping them up even though they were [43:57] hot, but that’s different, that was [44:00] hunger, it was madness, how could they [44:02] not, they were truly relying on that. [44:05] So you see, doesn't diet sometimes [44:07] affect your psychology? Like with my [44:09] banana and pancake stories, I realize [44:11] they form the two poles of my [44:12] personality. [44:13] One side is super withdrawn, [44:16] living like a thief, not wanting to [44:18] tell anyone anything, not wanting [44:20] anyone to know what I’m doing, you [44:22] know? Secretly eating something— [44:24] that’s one pole, but the other pole [44:27] is being bold and unrestrained, wanting [44:30] everything to be satisfying and enough, [44:32] right? That’s the two poles of my [44:35] personality. [44:36] The "potlatch" in anthropology, many [44:39] agrarian societies have it, even the [44:41] Native Americans were like that, [44:43] they’d have so much food they [44:45] couldn't possibly finish it, just [44:47] piling it all up. Teacher Xiaoxing, how [44:49] would you describe this meeting between [44:51] two great foodies from China and the US [44:53] ? [44:53] No, first of all, I’m a food [44:56] professional. He’s a real foodie; [45:00] it’s not hard to eat his cooking, but [45:02] you have to know the stories behind [45:04] each dish. He’s not just a foodie, [45:09] he’s a human geographer. Yeah, he [45:13] understands American dietary habits [45:16] from north to south incredibly well. [45:19] Look at this photo, this is Luo Lang in [45:23] China. [45:23] About where is this? [45:25] To put it closer to home, you’re the [45:27] American Li Shizhen; looking further [45:29] back, you’re Shennong. [45:30] That’s a big deal. He goes into the [45:33] mountains and wild places of China to [45:35] find ingredients, to understand the [45:37] diets of people in every little nook [45:39] and cranny, so he’s that kind of [45:41] person, and today [45:42] he’s prepared something special for [45:44] us. Alright, let Teacher Xiaoxing lead [45:46] us in tasting it. This should be corn [45:49] from the corn-growing regions of the [45:52] American South. This might change your [45:54] impression; you might have thought it [45:56] was from Sichuan. [45:57] Yes, the look of it. [45:59] Do you eat it with your hands? [46:00] Eat it with your hands, go ahead. [46:02] I also think, looking at it, how does [46:04] it not look like it? [46:05] Does such a thing even exist in the US? [46:08] Mind your chewing, keep your mouth [46:09] closed, because last time when you ate, [46:12] you know our audio is hard to process; [46:14] it sounded like a pig's trotter being [46:16] pulled out of a pig pen. So this corn [46:20] is indeed a bit different from what [46:21] you've had, right? [46:22] Hmm, this is corn puree. [46:24] This is corn, yes. [46:25] Corn. [46:26] Blue corn, oh my. [46:28] Treasure corn. Look, you can't share [46:30] this with the audience. [46:31] It's just really delicious, is this [46:34] quite filling? [46:35] Take a bite, take a bite. [46:36] This is fragrant, this is fragrant, hmm [46:38] . [46:38] Hmm, why is it so sweet? [46:40] Hmm, this is very fragrant. [46:41] This is a cinnamon roll. [46:43] It's really fragrant. [46:44] Hmm. It's also a traditional breakfast. [46:46] Where are cinnamon rolls originally [46:48] from? [46:48] Actually, this type of bread culture [46:50] came over from Europe. [46:51] Like Germany, France. [46:53] Those places are the Old World. [46:56] Hmm. [46:57] And especially, like in the American [46:59] Northeast. [47:00] There is a group there called [47:03] Anabaptists, who believe in baptism [47:05] again, right? That was back in the [47:09] 1600s. [47:10] Yes, yes. So they fled to America, and [47:16] in order to maintain all their [47:18] traditional religious beliefs, they [47:20] reject modern things, like electricity, [47:22] medical treatments, and so on; they [47:24] can't accept television, and this [47:26] belongs to their traditional stuff, [47:28] sourdough things, yes. [47:33] Just now, I was instantly impressed. [47:36] Amazing, amazing, this has some history [47:39] to it. I'm very curious where this [47:41] originated, so where exactly in the US [47:43] is this corn from? Indeed, this corn is [47:46] a plant from the New World. [47:48] Corn itself originally came from [47:51] Mesoamerica. [47:52] That is, present-day Mexico and what [47:54] Professor Chen mentioned, Texas, [47:56] Arizona, the Southwest and more [47:58] southerly regions. [48:00] And this was originally the main staple [48:03] of the Aztecs. Hmm. [48:07] It was considered a sacrificial [48:09] offering, something given to the gods, [48:12] or an offering to control the weather [48:15] or fortune; they... [48:16] This is really delicious, is this corn [48:18] from that region? Yes, actually there [48:21] are hundreds of types of corn. Nowadays [48:23] , we only grow a few varieties, like [48:25] sweet corn and so on. These things, I [48:28] actually spent a few years in Sichuan, [48:30] Guizhou, and the Yunnan-Guizhou-Sichuan [48:33] region, and I'd see them on the street. [48:35] But they mostly make them in triangles, [48:37] right? Either using sweet corn, or [48:40] wrapping that kind of waxy corn, [48:42] And it counts as a seasonal, quite [48:45] representative little snack, but the [48:48] earliest we can see of this is [48:50] What exactly is it wrapped in? [48:52] It's corn husks, corn husks wrapping [48:55] the corn, right? [48:56] Yes, around 1550, we see corn wrapping [48:58] in China; it had just entered China, [49:01] originally brought over by the [49:03] Portuguese. [49:04] So you think of Professor Xiaoqing’s [49:06] historical perspective, this corn and [49:08] potatoes. [49:09] They all came from the New World. [49:11] They also changed the course of Chinese [49:13] history, [49:13] And even changed China's population [49:15] growth. Of course. [49:17] They changed the entire land-to-people [49:19] structure of East Asia, the proportion [49:21] completely changed. [49:22] Yes, because you look at how many [49:23] Chinese immigrants there are in [49:25] Southeast Asia today; they actually all [49:26] went out from the southeast coast. [49:27] Going out from the southeast coast was [49:29] due to population pressure. [49:30] Why was the population so high? It [49:33] actually has to do with corn and [49:34] potatoes. [49:35] Yes, of course, talking about this corn [49:37] is too simple. Since Professor Xiaoqing [49:39] is here today, I think we should get [49:41] straight to the point: meat. Meat, you [49:44] ... [49:45] Hey, let me show you meat. Roland wrote [49:48] this book over an inch thick, [49:50] specifically about American meat. I [49:53] think we need a sense of ritual. To [49:56] build anticipation, let's gaze at it [49:59] first. Professor Xiaoqing, why don't [50:01] you start by expressing your feelings [50:03] about meat. [50:04] So this is Western meat, then. [50:06] What is Chinese meat, then? [50:08] Because, because of the difference in [50:11] tableware. [50:12] Yes. So dishes will have a fundamental [50:15] change in appearance; all Chinese [50:18] dishes are designed for chopsticks. [50:21] Yes. [50:22] Oh, it’s for chopsticks, meaning once [50:25] picked up by chopsticks, it's just [50:26] right. But Western meat, it has a knife [50:29] and fork. [50:30] Hmm. [50:31] It can be divided again and again. [50:33] Oh, so they are in big chunks. They [50:36] will—our knife work is... [50:39] Born from chopsticks and heat, that is [50:42] ... [50:42] Hmm. [50:43] The speed of heating and the process of [50:46] enjoying it, [50:47] Basically, it's all one bite at a time. [50:49] Then must people eat meat? [50:52] Not necessarily, of course not [50:54] necessarily. [50:55] Uh, for example... [50:56] We have so many vegetarians; I also eat [50:58] mostly vegetarian food normally now. [51:00] But then I have to tell you, you know, [51:03] speaking of being vegetarian, there is [51:06] this American company, or Western [51:08] anyway, that makes artificial meat, [51:10] It went public on May 2nd this year. [51:13] Within 26 trading days, this stock has [51:15] risen nearly sixfold. [51:17] Mm. [51:18] This lab-grown meat is not made of peas [51:20] or soybeans, not plant-based protein. [51:22] I looked up some data and it was [51:24] incredible. It’s said that in 1912, a [51:27] Western scientist cut a piece of [51:29] chicken heart muscle. [51:30] Mm. Placed it into some culture medium, [51:33] and it reportedly pulsed for 20 years. [51:36] That started it all. I also found that [51:39] in 1931, Churchill, the British leader, [51:42] said that 50 years later, if we wanted [51:45] to eat a chicken wing, we wouldn't need [51:47] to raise or kill a real chicken; we [51:50] could just grow one. So, then you know, [51:52] around 2012 or 2013—Professor [51:55] Xiaoqing, could you tell us more about [51:57] this? You’re the expert. You should [52:00] talk about it, you go ahead. [52:01] It’s basically that a real lab-grown [52:04] steak, which cost $ 330,000 to produce, [52:06] is made by taking live cells from an [52:09] animal. [52:09] Placed in a petri dish, it’s [52:11] essentially test-tube meat. [52:12] And so it exists now. Since it exists, [52:15] you know the stock is rising, and one [52:17] of the people who invested in this [52:19] lab-grown meat is someone everyone [52:21] knows: Bill Gates. [52:23] They took a piece of chicken, and Bill [52:26] Gates tasted it, and his comment was, " [52:28] Oh, surprise." [52:30] But Bill Gates isn't reliable when it [52:32] comes to his taste. [52:33] Right, because we all know Bill Gates [52:36] is on a different level. He even once [52:38] said that if all the cows in the world [52:40] were formed into a country, it would be [52:42] the third-largest emitter of polluting [52:45] gases on Earth, right? [52:46] True. So by comparison, a Chinese [52:50] online video blogger, [52:53] reportedly conducted an experiment [52:55] where he placed this lab-grown meat [52:58] alongside real meat. [52:59] Mm. [53:01] His cat made the correct choice. [53:04] What does that prove, in your opinion? [53:06] It really comes down to flavor. [53:08] How so? [53:10] Uh, our current level of science can [53:13] produce lab-grown meat. But it only [53:16] solves the problem of nutrition. [53:19] Whether it tastes good or not is not [53:21] its primary consideration. [53:23] Mm. [53:25] And what makes us human is that besides [53:27] being concerned about whether it can [53:29] provide us with energy, what's more [53:32] important is that we can enjoy the [53:34] experience of eating. This kind of [53:38] flavor comes from time, from the [53:41] animal's growth, and from the food and [53:43] water it consumes, and so on. However, [53:46] there is another way to look at it. For [53:49] example, in the culinary world a few [53:52] years ago, molecular gastronomy was [53:54] very popular. [53:55] The foundation of molecular gastronomy [53:57] is actually science. It uses science to [53:59] re-examine all the principles of [54:01] cooking. So, what is the scientific [54:04] basis behind all this? For example, the [54:06] traditional way we seared steak was to [54:09] quickly sear both sides to caramelize [54:11] it, to lock in the juices inside, [54:13] to lock in the moisture, and then take [54:15] it out; that's how it was always done. [54:17] However, molecular gastronomy and [54:19] studies by some scholars have [54:21] questioned why we actually do this. [54:23] Does it really lock in those juices? [54:26] And when research was done, it was [54:28] found that we could actually achieve [54:30] similar results using other methods; it [54:33] isn't strictly necessary. Right, so [54:35] taking it a step further, we can study, [54:37] for instance, when we put a piece of [54:39] meat in our mouths, why do we think it [54:42] tastes good? We think it tastes good [54:44] because of certain chemical reactions [54:46] on our tongues. Once we understand the [54:51] mechanism of these chemical reactions, [54:53] can we use other materials to recreate [54:56] them? Therefore, the current trend is [55:00] moving in this direction: what is the [55:03] actual reason we find something [55:05] delicious? Why does this thing feel [55:07] like meat, have the texture of meat, [55:09] and where does that flavor come from? [55:11] If we could use scientific means to [55:13] achieve all of this, is it possible to [55:16] reach a point where even you would say, [55:18] "Wow, this really has flavor." Then, [55:20] when I got to Beijing, I didn't miss [55:22] Shanghai, because I didn't like the [55:24] smallness of Shanghai. I admired the [55:27] North, the Soviet-influenced culture; [55:29] it was just vast. [55:30] When I got to the US, I didn't miss [55:32] Shanghai either. [55:33] When I got to the US, I thought of [55:35] Dunhuang. It's very strange; I didn't [55:37] expect it at all. It wasn't until I was [55:39] old that I started not missing Shanghai [55:41] , but wondering where—it's unexpected [55:43] . [55:43] Having seen it all. [55:47] Right, honestly, I feel like a stranger [55:50] in Shanghai; I feel like a stranger [55:53] everywhere. I’m no longer a local, [56:01] and I don't even know the roads. [57:15] Professional. At that time, what I did [57:31] more of was cooling off in the breeze, [57:33] just catching the breeze. [57:35] The bridges were full of people [57:36] sleeping. It's amazing we dared to [57:38] sleep on overpasses back then; so many [57:40] people slept on the overpasses, on both [57:41] sides. Right. [57:43] And then. [57:44] Maybe there weren't enough cars back [57:45] then. [57:45] It was mostly bicycles. [57:47] And in the summer, everyone in the [57:49] neighborhood would come out to cool off [57:51] ; everyone was outside. And parents [57:53] would always make you recite Tang [57:54] poetry or something. [57:56] Right, cooling off under the [57:57] streetlights. I guess you... [58:00] You probably didn't. [58:01] I did. You had air conditioning when [58:03] you were young, right? [58:04] I never went, but I saw others doing it [58:07] . I always thought it seemed quite nice [58:09] . [58:10] Just enjoying the breeze, having a bit [58:12] of poetry, that simple comfort. [58:15] Yeah, exactly, exactly. [58:18] When I was a kid, my upbringing was [58:20] quite strict. [58:21] And also, where I lived when I was [58:23] young, I never lived in a lane house. [58:25] Hmm. [58:26] I never lived in a Shikumen; I grew up [58:28] in one of those small Western-style [58:30] houses. I think...I mean, because, well [58:39] , it was like that. [58:46] Did you have a flush toilet or just a [58:48] chamber pot back then? [58:50] That’s what I mean, my... [58:52] It wasn't one of those Shikumen houses. [58:54] Because the Shikumen era really meant [58:57] ... [58:57] The era of the chamber pot, right? Even [59:01] when I went to take math tutoring [59:03] outside, at the home of a math teacher [59:06] who lived in a Shikumen—I remember it [59:09] clearly—every Saturday around six or [59:11] seven, there would be that...the smell [59:14] of the night soil truck arriving. [59:17] Yeah, the smell of the honey wagon. It [59:19] left such a deep impression on me. I [59:22] couldn't listen to a single thing in [59:23] class; my mind was completely taken [59:25] over by that scent. It's hard to forget [59:27] , and impossible not to notice that [59:29] smell. The smells you experienced in [59:31] childhood are unforgettable. [59:33] I don't remember a thing that math [59:34] teacher said, only that I was in their [59:36] house. [59:37] Whenever I see math now, I think of [59:38] that smell. [59:39] The stench wafting in under the dim [59:41] light. That's the only impression I [59:43] have of that math class. Your math was [59:45] never good. [59:46] I blame that night soil truck. If it [59:48] weren't for that truck, my math [59:49] would've been fine. [59:49] You're an artist. [59:51] True. [59:52] Actually, among us, you’ve stayed in [59:53] Shanghai the longest. [59:54] Really? [59:55] Hmm. [59:57] That is true. I’m really curious [59:58] about something: why are Shanghainese [60:00] people so into following trends? See, [60:01] that’s actually... [60:03] Historically speaking, if you think [60:04] about it, the very word "fashionable" [60:06] started in Shanghai. [60:07] Oh, right. [60:08] Really? [60:09] Yeah, they say 100 years of fashion— [60:11] China's fashion started in Shanghai. [60:14] Starting from 181...this year. OK, so [60:17] what is "Shanghai style"? It actually [60:19] describes this road from Nanjing East [60:21] Road to Jing'an Temple. We always had [60:23] someone in the neighborhood when we [60:25] were kids who was particularly good at [60:27] sewing or something, not necessarily [60:28] professional, but they could make all [60:30] sorts of...... [60:31] pretty clothes and things. Do you have [60:33] memories of that from your childhood? [60:35] When I was little, my mom made all my [60:36] clothes. [60:37] Oh, your mom was that talented? [60:39] I would point out a flower I saw in a [60:41] magazine, and my mom would embroider it [60:43] for me, and she’d make me shirts with [60:45] those Peter Pan collars—my mom made [60:47] everything for me. So Mu Xin's words [60:49] are quite moving. I seem to recall you [60:51] saying that the suits Mu Xin described, [60:53] he actually never wore them himself. [60:54] No, no, no, no. He was just a child at [60:57] the time. [60:58] Right. [60:59] By the time he grew up, he couldn't [61:01] wear suits. He went to Shanghai during [61:04] the occupation; he was born in '27, so [61:06] he was 20 in '47, but in '40, '41, '42, [61:09] '43... [61:10] He was in Shanghai. [61:11] So he witnessed Shanghai at that time, [61:14] hmm. [61:14] Actually, I've researched this period, [61:16] and Shanghai during this time was [61:17] incredible. Just think about it, the [61:19] Hongxiang Department Store we hear [61:20] about today, the person behind it was [61:22] actually a tailor from Chuansha. [61:23] A seventeen-year-old from Chuansha. [61:26] He came to Nanjing Road in Shanghai to [61:28] work as a tailor, and then gradually, [61:31] by his 20s, he opened a store like that [61:33] , Hongxiang; the name was Jin Hongxiang [61:35] . [61:35] So he was making clothes for people, [61:38] and it wasn't traditional ethnic [61:40] clothing, but modern qipaos and things [61:42] like that. Whatever it was, it was [61:44] essentially making modern fashion. [61:46] Oh. [61:46] So fashion really started from Shanghai [61:49] . [61:49] Did your mother follow fashion trends [61:50] back then? [61:51] My mom, my mom did at the time. In my [61:53] memory, my mom would go get a perm when [61:55] I was little. [61:55] Oh, right, right. [61:57] Perming was a big deal, and then [61:59] she’d even make me get one. [62:01] Like when I was six, my mom had already [62:03] started curling my hair. [62:04] And my mom would spend a whole month's [62:06] salary on a pair of leather shoes. [62:07] Oh. My mom really loved leather shoes, [62:10] whether they were cowhide or sheepskin, [62:12] she just loved shoes and was willing to [62:14] spend the money. And she wasn't the [62:16] only one; I had many aunts around me [62:18] who were very willing to spend their [62:19] money when they were young, saying, " [62:21] I'll spend a month's wages just to buy [62:23] a piece of clothing or a pair of shoes. [62:24] " It's hard to imagine now. [62:26] That's called being self-indulgent. [62:28] Yes, yes, yes, yes, my mother was very [62:30] self-indulgent. Shanghai really has two [62:32] sides at the same time. On one hand, [62:34] there's that pursuit of fashion, and on [62:36] the other hand, in my memory, Shanghai [62:38] fashion was also people wearing pajamas [62:40] on the street—the more vulgar side, [62:41] too. [62:42] No, I'm telling you, the pants... [62:44] Right, pajama pants and pajamas. But [62:46] think about it, do other cities have [62:48] this "pajama" thing? [62:49] Ah. [62:50] Maybe not. Do you agree with that? I [62:53] don't know, I mean, you're asking me [62:56] directly. You're saying this pajama [62:58] habit is actually a small detail of an [63:00] exquisite life. Doesn't that make some [63:03] sense? [63:03] This line is really a bit... [63:05] There were no patterned clothes back in [63:07] that era. But pajamas and pajama pants [63:09] were mostly patterned. [63:11] It was either striped, or plaid pajamas [63:13] . [63:14] Also, if I recall correctly, the [63:15] average residential living space per [63:17] person in Shanghai back then was only [63:18] about four square meters. [63:19] Back then, there were no living rooms [63:21] or anything, so as soon as you stepped [63:24] out. That was your living room; the [63:26] street was your living room. Today we [63:29] talk about bedrooms and living rooms, [63:31] but back then, you’d just step out [63:34] into the alleyway. [63:35] So, I think it’s normal that people [63:37] wore pajamas outside. [63:38] We value privacy now, but back then, [63:40] how many households in Shanghai even [63:42] had closed doors? [63:43] People would come and go freely without [63:45] knocking, whether you were eating or [63:46] arguing inside. When I was a kid, I [63:48] didn't see anything wrong with people [63:49] wearing pajamas on the street; I [63:50] thought it was perfectly reasonable. [63:52] That was the Shanghai street scene, [63:54] exactly. Or there was this feeling, [63:55] this silent understanding among [63:56] Shanghainese: "You're wearing pajamas, [63:58] so what if I am too?" It was just [63:59] everyone. [64:00] It felt like nobody cared about it. [64:02] Because the homes were small; that era [64:04] probably caused it. When you first came [64:07] back, was it perfume? [64:08] Yes, actually, I was just talking to [64:11] Wang Dao about this. Around 1993, those [64:13] so-called high-end fashion brands [64:15] hadn't really entered the market to [64:17] sell ready-to-wear clothing. [64:18] Ready-to-wear was too expensive. [64:21] So, the first high-end international [64:23] brands to enter were cosmetics. [64:25] Hmm. [64:26] And it wasn't the full range of [64:29] cosmetics we see today. Back then, [64:31] people just wore lipstick. If you look [64:34] at people now, they have elaborate [64:37] makeup. I look and think, "Wow, [64:39] they’ve used so many products," but [64:41] back then, there weren't any. [64:43] Right. Back then it was just lipstick, [64:46] and slowly perfume; perfume came later. [64:49] And there's another important detail: [64:51] around 1993, Shanghai residents didn't [64:53] have water heaters at home. You [64:55] couldn't just take a shower. If you [64:57] sprayed perfume and didn't wash, you'd [64:59] still smell like it the next day. [65:01] After '94 or '95, water heaters started [65:04] to appear. [65:05] I never wore it. [65:06] Perfume is pointless unless you have [65:09] the means to bathe. [65:10] Of course, back in the day, it's said [65:12] that when perfume was invented in [65:14] Europe, it was to mask body heat— [65:16] To mask body odor. [65:18] Hmm. The only woman I saw wearing [65:20] lipstick and drawing her eyebrows when [65:22] I was a kid—who was it? It was the [65:24] mother of a classmate I grew up with, [65:25] who I later stayed with in the [65:27] countryside. [65:28] Hmm. [65:29] Her mother was already in her fifties [65:31] back then. She wore lipstick and [65:33] penciled her eyebrows every day, yet [65:35] she was a genuine member of the working [65:37] class. [65:38] She was a female worker at the Shanghai [65:40] Shenxin textile mill. [65:41] And that was in Shanghai after the [65:43] liberation. [65:43] She had a—well, a knack for it. Back [65:46] then, it was all about fabrics. She [65:48] could talk to you while measuring, and [65:50] she’d never get the dimensions wrong, [65:52] yeah. [65:52] She was a highly skilled veteran worker [65:55] . [65:55] She was a factory worker. Which is to [65:58] say, female workers at the old Shenxin [66:00] mill used to wear lipstick and brow [66:02] makeup to work. Oh. [66:03] Take the show "Blossoms Shanghai," for [66:06] example. There's that scene with Lingzi [66:09] returning from Japan. It really makes [66:11] you think about how so many people from [66:13] Shanghai actually went to Japan back [66:15] then. [66:16] That's right. Plenty of people from [66:18] Shanghai went to North America and [66:20] other places, right? But when they came [66:22] back... [66:24] It was only those who went to Japan who [66:26] brought back habits like wearing makeup [66:29] . This sense of refinement really [66:33] flourished more in Asia. [66:34] Ah. [66:35] Well, America is huge, after all. [66:37] Mm. [66:38] Once you integrate into America, you [66:40] aren't necessarily... [66:41] Americans don't dress up. Americans [66:42] themselves don't even dress up. America [66:44] is very—it’s very casual. Meaning, [66:46] whoever you were when you left, [66:47] you’re likely still that same person [66:49] when you return. There’s no pressure [66:50] there to turn you into someone else. [66:52] Mm. [66:53] New York might be an exception, of [66:55] course, but if you go to Tokyo, for [66:56] instance, even if you're just doing odd [66:58] jobs, you walk out of a department [67:00] store. You can’t even get out without [67:02] passing through a department store.