再好的朋友，也不想你过得太好！这就是人性，陌生人根本没空嫉妒你 #圆桌派 #许子东

再好的朋友，也不想你过得太好：陌生人根本没空嫉妒你 节目围绕创作焦虑、虚荣心理与“财务自由”的多重定义展开漫谈。嘉宾们深入剖析了社交网络上将炫耀包装成抱怨的“凡尔赛”修辞机制，窦文涛亦自剖了曾因安抚极度节俭的父亲而被迫编造“豪门生活”的荒诞经历。陈晓卿则结合自身离开体制投身商业流媒体的经历，揭露了大数据完播率对纪录片创作的绑架与套路化困境，提出焦虑的反义词是“具体”。众人最终达成共识：真正的财务自由并非无限累积的财富数字，而是摆脱金钱胁迫、终其一生保有用热爱抵抗虚无与被遗弃感的自主权。 陈晓卿透露其团队作品虽在奈飞（Netflix）获得全球传播，但因采用平台前期全额买断的投资模式，制作团队无法享有后续流媒体播放量的任何后端分成权益。 (78:59) 大数据与完播率指标正在重塑纪录片工业，倒逼创作逻辑从“表达者主导”转向“迎合受众预期”，促使BBC等主流机构全面倒向跌宕起伏的故事化套路，导致硬核学术科普在商业市场式微。 (63:01) 针对商业黑话与社会恐慌蔓延，陈晓卿提出“焦虑的反义词是具体”，主张将宏大抽象的前途担忧拆解为选报学校、考取资质等可落地的具体执行步骤以破除内耗。 (60:37) 窦文涛分享因一份76元鳗鱼饭引发父亲恐慌内疚的经历，呈现出老一辈极度节俭伦理与当代消费观念的撕裂，并剖析了将优越感包裹在抱怨中的“凡尔赛”心理机制。 (47:28)

《圆桌派》节目中，窦文涛、许子东与陈晓卿等嘉宾深入探讨了人际关系中的隐秘嫉妒、“凡尔赛”式优越感修辞，以及流行热词和大数据算法如何制造集体焦虑并重塑现代文化生产。 同侪嫉妒与八卦的社会镜像机制 (0:00) 对谈指出，人类最难向外坦陈的情感是嫉妒。即使在亲密朋友之间，分享自身的好运与成功也极易引发微妙的不适与心理失衡，而陌生人之间则不存在这种紧密的对照压力。在公共文化层面，现代社会对名人八卦的狂热，本质上遵循着“距离原则”：公众既消费远距离名人的私生活作为道德宣泄口，又将其视作自身现实困境（如王宝强离婚案所折射的阶层跃升与婚姻资本交换，或张靓颖家事展现的代际控制）的“样板戏”与人生参照系。 从演化人类学的视角看，非正式的八卦沟通自70,000年前认知革命起便是智人维系大型协作网络、击败尼安德特人的关键工具。现代职场与管理中，非正式信息流同样是看清表面话术与真实权力动态的管道。然而，随着自媒体与算法的狂飙，名人丑闻往往被迅速抽干，沦为迎合大众固有偏见、缺乏严肃调查的即时情绪消耗品。 “凡尔赛”修辞与优越感的隐秘投射 (24:16) 对谈剖析了网络热词“凡尔赛”（隐秘炫耀）的心理机制。纯粹的炫耀往往流于表面的直接炫富，而高级的“凡尔赛”则是一种文本与人设的修辞游戏——说话者必须借助“先抑后扬”或伪装抱怨，将自身在财富、审美或智识上的优越地位包装成日常烦扰。例如，学者以“篇幅太长太累、或是封笔之作”来慨叹巨著出版，或是在社交媒体上借抱怨琐事展露背后的奢华资产。 嘉宾们认为，这种修辞根源于人类渴望被看见、被肯定的心理代偿机制。当社会进入基本物质充裕阶段后，单纯的财富占有无法完全满足被尊重的欲望，甚至可能源于早年被贬低的心理补偿。只要存在同侪攀比，这种掩饰优越感的本能便难以压制，即便文化修养极高的人，也只是将这层优越感隐藏得更加巧妙而已。 热词造市与用“具象化”拆解焦虑 (57:23) 针对“内卷”、“躺平”等流行词的泛滥，讨论指出文化媒体与商业包装常常像时尚产业推销季节色彩一样制造焦虑。现实中的残酷竞争虽客观存在，但媒体通过概念定名赋予琐碎情绪统一的标签，使个体产生“不跟风就落伍”的群体幻觉。此类宏大而抽象的术语犹如思维的囚笼，不仅让人陷入虚幻的无力感与心理投降，也常常低估了大众本自具备的独立判断力。 纪录片导演陈晓卿提出，消除此类焦虑的核心策略是“具体化”（Specifics）。当个体面对职业发展或育儿规划等悬浮压力时，应当将宏大的抽象焦虑拆解为可执行的细分问题——例如明确具体的目标学校、专业门槛与调研步骤。一旦把注意力集中到踏实解决手头事务的日常步调中，空洞词汇制造的压迫感便会自然消散。 数据算法对内容创作的倒逼与规训 (63:01) 在探讨网生文化与商业影视制作时，陈晓卿坦言创作者如今面临严苛的“数据紧箍咒”。实时完播率、流入流出曲线乃至极端弹幕反馈，彻底颠覆了传统纪录片“我想告诉你什么”的单向输出模式，日益蜕变为“你想听什么我就讲什么”的迎合逻辑。这不仅挤压了小众、高门槛与非戏剧化硬核知识的生存空间，也迫使行业普遍走向套路化叙事。 然而，窦文涛与现场嘉宾警惕这种双向讨好的恶性循环：当算法只捕捉流行关键词并引发正反馈式海啸时，文化生态或将沦为单调的互悦机制。面对勒庞在《乌合之众》中所揭示的群体非理性诉求，团队应坚持“站在数据前面”，把算法视作修正执行的辅助工具，而非倒过来由数据定义创作方向与价值内核。 重构“财务自由”：摆脱生存胁迫与终身劳作 (78:59) 讨论最后反思了当下被高度神化的“财务自由”概念。陈晓卿以自身早年因支付孩子海外学费的现实压力被迫走出体制拥抱商业市场、以及与Netflix合作只拿固定制作费而无版权分成的经历为例，揭示了内容工业背后的经济账。 嘉宾们认为，“财务自由”存在多元梯度：它既可以是学者许子东所指的“从退休到终老资金足够维系生存而不虞匮乏”，也可以如经济学者通过商业保险锁死后顾之忧以切断代际捆绑；但其最高境界并非“拥有不再工作的特权”，而是“摆脱了生存资本的胁迫后，依然能够纯粹出于热爱，终身保有被社会所需要、持续创作自身事业的自主权”。 本期节目揭示了当代人在同侪攀比、虚荣修辞与算法焦虑中的普遍挣扎。真正的自主既不在于向外部虚荣寻求投射，也不在于被商业热词与平台数据牵着走，而在于用具体的执行锚定内心价值，并在摆脱生存焦虑后依然保有终身创造的自由。

[43:55] 陈晓卿: 劳务费太高，请不起自己了 [43:55] 窦文涛: 要实惠不要虚荣 [47:28] 窦文涛: I started getting flustered, I just panicked. I picked up the wine and said, 'Look at this red wine—it's actually just two bottles for 299 yuan from the supermarket downstairs, you know? I drink 5,000-yuan bottles every day!' Then I pointed to the painting hanging in front and said, 'Do you know how much this painting is worth? It’s worth over a hundred million!' Well, it's really a high-quality art reproduction print... but I had to tell him that so this meal would seem like nothing to him. [47:28] 窦文涛: 有钱人的生活你想不到 [60:37] 陈晓卿: 焦虑的反义词是具体 [63:01] 我想告诉你什么 [63:01] 你想听什么我就讲什么 [63:01] 陈晓卿: 站在数据前面

[0:00] Yeah. [0:01] They would find it, well, strange. [0:03] Especially for you girls who claim to [0:06] be super close. [0:07] But if you tell the other person that [0:09] you’re living well, apparently, you [0:11] girls need to be extra careful. [0:12] Even with your best friend. [0:14] Yeah. [0:15] They start listening and then they get [0:17] unhappy. [0:18] Yeah, yeah, it’s like showing off, [0:19] bordering on flaunting. Right, as they [0:21] listen, they might develop—well, [0:23] sometimes things are subtle among men, [0:25] too. For example, two buddies, right, [0:27] one of them finds a girlfriend... [0:29] Coming. [0:30] Right, of course, if we’re being " [0:32] altruistic," we’d say if he finds a [0:34] great, beautiful, gorgeous girlfriend, [0:36] we should be happy for him, right? [0:38] We’re happy for him, while crying [0:41] inside, right? But often, if your buddy [0:43] really does find someone truly [0:45] outstanding, [0:45] Even, even extremely pretty, [0:48] I’m telling you, even if you are his [0:50] good friend, you’re using your logic [0:52] to force yourself to be happy for him, [0:54] But in reality, you can’t help but [0:56] have a, well, a twisted feeling deep [0:58] down, that kind of mindset. I’ve [1:00] realized now, it’s not just about [1:02] best friends or whatever; I believe [1:04] everyone has this. I’ve found that [1:06] you can share anything and talk about [1:08] anything, but there’s one thing I [1:10] think you can’t say, and that is envy [1:12] . [1:12] For example, I just... [1:14] Wouldn’t tell others that I’m [1:15] jealous of someone. I feel like this is [1:17] the hardest thing for me to say; it’s [1:18] something that belongs to the deepest [1:20] part of your heart. [1:21] Right. [1:22] And speaking of gossip, it reminds me [1:24] that British society is actually quite [1:26] funny. On one hand, you see in the UK, [1:28] when everyone chats, there seems to be [1:30] a rule that gossiping is considered [1:32] unrefined, right? [1:33] But then, it’s a place with an [1:35] extremely well-developed tabloid [1:36] industry. Aren’t all those gossip [1:38] papers from the UK? They say British [1:40] gossip follows a "principle of distance [1:42] ." What does that mean? Well, it means [1:44] ... [1:45] For example, my own business is [1:46] something that can be discussed within [1:48] the family. It’s acceptable to talk [1:49] about it there. Then, colleagues’ [1:51] business can be discussed at the office [1:53] . Only the business of celebrities is [1:55] fair game for the whole society, [1:56] because they are distant from us. When [1:58] we talk about them, we don’t feel [2:00] guilty. Hey, I’m gossiping about [2:01] someone, but I don’t feel guilty; [2:03] they’re public figures. Right, Wentao [2:05] , I used to write articles criticizing [2:07] you, but later...if I knew you now, I [2:08] would absolutely never write them again [2:10] . Because…if you become friends, you [2:12] absolutely cannot write gossip about [2:14] your friend, because you have a moral [2:15] responsibility. But before that, [2:17] morally, you would have to write a " [2:19] praise" piece instead. Then, if it’s [2:21] …if it’s from a distance, when they [2:23] exist as a public figure, you are [2:25] completely outside that distance, and [2:27] you can comment on them. Because I [2:29] think what someone said is very true: [2:30] part of your fame, part of the benefits [2:32] you receive, includes this part of [2:34] being judged by others. Right. [2:37] Of course, there is a part involving [2:39] harm in it. I remember a very wealthy [2:41] friend in Hong Kong who loved reading [2:43] gossip magazines. He would often read [2:45] this weekly or that weekly and say, " [2:46] Hey, this is good, these magazines are [2:48] well-run." Then one day, [2:50] he ended up on the cover. [2:52] He found himself on the cover of that [2:55] trashy magazine and said, "Buy it for [2:57] me, acquire it." He had his assistant [2:59] buy out that weekly magazine. That’s [3:02] when you see if the needle pricks you [3:05] or not. Once it pricks you, you’ll [3:07] know the terrifying part of gossip. And [3:10] what you just said about jealousy among [3:13] peers, that can be very damaging. I [3:15] remember—I won’t say who—but once [3:19] , I… [3:19] Wentao, Zidong, and I were all together [3:22] . [3:23] A woman came over and said to Zidong, " [3:25] Professor Zidong, I think you are the [3:28] second most handsome guy at Phoenix." [3:30] Wow, that just [3:32] killed all three of us. First, Zidong [3:35] wouldn't be happy, thinking, "Why am I [3:37] second? Who is first?" And Wentao and I [3:39] looked at each other, not saying a word [3:41] . " [3:42] Who is number one?" And there were only [3:44] the three of you left. [3:45] She dropped that one sentence, and from [3:47] then on, the three of us... [3:49] Were at odds; it was just because of [3:51] that one sentence. [3:52] That’s called a battle royale. Right, [3:54] that’s terrifying. That woman was [3:57] brilliant. [3:58] Now, I don’t know, like in your line [3:59] of work, or if they ask you to write a [4:01] column, you inevitably end up writing [4:02] about gossip. But, for example, if you [4:04] write about something involving someone [4:05] you know, or a famous person who is [4:07] your friend, you might not use their [4:08] name. [4:09] I would never write about someone I [4:10] know, which is why I try my best not to [4:11] know famous people. [4:12] This is also what they say is a [4:13] principle of gossip—you actually make [4:15] a living off it—but once you’ve [4:17] written it, if someone comes to you for [4:18] verification, [4:19] Hmm. You wouldn't admit that what [4:21] you've written is about them, right? [4:23] It's just that when I write gossip [4:25] publicly in writing, I don't feel like [4:27] I'm leaking anything, but— [4:29] Because everything has already come out [4:31] . For example, I think we write [4:33] entertainment commentary, which is [4:35] second-tier. The first tier is the [4:37] paparazzi who go out and take the [4:39] pictures. [4:40] Right, on the front line. [4:42] Once the photos are taken and the [4:44] evidence is solid, then we go ahead and [4:47] analyze the situation. I feel that, for [4:49] example, I run a public account now. I [4:52] think there are many, many [4:54] entertainment accounts in China. Some [4:56] are informational, but mine, Miss Lan [4:59] and Miss Huang, belongs to the [5:01] analytical type. Some people even [5:04] define us as "high-end gossip." Because [5:06] , actually, everyone wants to read [5:08] gossip; it's just that some people feel [5:11] certain gossip is too low-brow. They [5:13] want gossip that has been filtered. I [5:15] think gossip can be divided into many, [5:17] many professional categories. [5:19] We need to reclaim—to generally [5:21] reclaim the definition of gossip. [5:23] Because when talking about "gossip," [5:25] the original meaning is, of course, [5:27] fine. We all know "Bagua" from [5:29] traditional Chinese culture, but as it [5:31] developed, the term "gossip"(Bagua) [5:33] really just makes people call you a [5:35] busybody or a gossip-monger. " [5:37] Bapo"(a busybody) is gossip. [5:39] Do you know that? There's someone in [5:41] China called "Shiliupo." Why is she [5:43] called "Shiliupo"? She says she is the [5:45] gossip among gossips, so added together [5:47] , it's sixteen. [5:48] Do you know that? Some say the origin [5:50] of "gossip" comes from those erotic [5:52] Hong Kong newspapers that used the [5:53] Bagua symbol to cover up private parts, [5:55] right? [5:55] No. [5:56] Right, some people say it's because [5:58] The Bagua symbol covering private parts [6:00] . [6:00] Since they weren't allowed to show them [6:02] , they used little Bagua symbols to [6:04] cover those parts in those magazines. [6:06] So, whenever people said "gossip," they [6:07] were referring to those magazines. No, [6:09] that came later. It started with [6:12] Cantonese, and the source is just, [6:14] anyway, it’s that... [6:18] Back to gossip, it's primarily about [6:21] people's private lives. OK, it has [6:24] nothing to do with so-called public [6:27] interest or the right to know. But you [6:32] still want to expose it, and when we [6:34] call someone a gossip, it certainly [6:37] implies a sense of gloating. So I think [6:40] our approach to commentary is different [6:43] . For instance, I can take a piece of [6:45] gossip, like the Wang Baoqiang scandal, [6:47] and analyze the gender power dynamics [6:49] within it, how they’re unequal, or [6:51] even how the entire legal system fails [6:54] to protect marriage. But commentary, I [6:56] feel, is not gossiping at all. Gossip [6:59] is when we go, "Look at Wang Baoqiang [7:01] this and that," and we view it from [7:03] that angle—getting cheated on, who [7:05] deserves what, who’s promiscuous, and [7:07] so on. There’s that kind of judgment, [7:09] specifically moral judgment about [7:11] things that have nothing to do with you [7:13] —it’s someone else’s life. I [7:15] really find it baffling. I don't mean [7:18] to offend my peers, but I feel that if [7:20] you’re concerned with those things, [7:22] your own life must be too dull. [7:24] Or maybe your taste is just too low, [7:26] which is why you care about it. So, let [7:28] me ask you, is that person’s taste [7:30] low? But their film, I feel, is just [7:31] them hiding in a corner, collecting [7:33] everyone’s gossip, and then... [7:35] Ah, I don’t think that’s called [7:37] gossip; that’s called artistic [7:38] creation, just like my commentary. So, [7:41] do you see what my perspective is now? [7:43] In the past, I had some reservations [7:45] about discussing people’s gossip or [7:48] celebrities 'private lives, right? But [7:50] now, I’ve come to terms with it— [7:52] let’s just talk about it; it’s the [7:54] tide of history, you know? You can’t [7:56] stop it, and I want to say, it’s [7:59] literature. I told them the other day, [8:01] from the perspective of a [8:03] professionally trained journalist, [8:05] anything unverified is just nonsense. [8:08] But that makes the world so boring, so [8:10] you know, when I talk about gossip now, [8:13] I truly mean it in a literary sense. [8:15] First, I must clarify that we will [8:18] never know exactly what’s going on [8:20] with Zhang Liangying, but still. [8:22] It’s like a modern theatrical [8:24] performance. So the other day, I made a [8:27] comparison: in the past, perhaps you [8:29] could say paparazzi were bad because, [8:32] after all, it was snooping, right? But [8:35] later on, you find the world has [8:37] changed—it’s their own mothers. [8:40] It’s Wang Baoqiang himself. [8:42] Posting an open letter that grabs [8:43] everyone’s attention—it’s just [8:45] like a People’s Daily editorial, you [8:47] know? So I understood the essence of [8:49] this world, the essence of this era. [8:51] This era is the age of celebrities, the [8:53] age of social media, and also the age [8:55] of gossip. What is its essence? These [8:58] celebrities are our model operas. [9:00] Yes, reality shows. Do you remember [9:02] when Jiang Qing produced the model [9:04] operas back then? With nothing else for [9:05] the nation to watch, and given [9:07] today’s confused values, nobody knows [9:09] what to do when they get cheated on. [9:11] How should one react, right? Or if [9:14] someone tries to seize their family [9:15] fortune, or if their mother interferes [9:17] in their marriage—these are the [9:18] hidden struggles of everyone. [9:20] You see, we don’t know what to do. [9:22] Many people have no religion, no God, [9:24] and the Party doesn't seem to care [9:26] about these things much either, right? [9:28] We just need celebrities now. [9:30] Take the Wang Baoqiang incident; it [9:33] became a huge drama. [9:34] Wendao is right. [9:36] We need the drama. In this drama, [9:38] everyone finds their own guide, thinks [9:40] about how to handle things, discusses [9:41] if it’s appropriate, and relates it [9:43] to their own situation. So you see... [9:46] What about the psychology of those who [9:47] like to watch even if they aren't in [9:48] that situation? I think it involves [9:50] values. For example, regarding Wang [9:53] Baoqiang, I wrote an article asking: [9:55] would you let your daughter marry [9:57] someone like him? We are discussing a [10:00] man like Wang Baoqiang—a grassroots [10:03] figure who represents the desires of [10:05] many at the bottom—why didn’t he [10:07] look for a local village girl, but [10:09] instead sought a girl from the big city [10:12] ? What is his mindset? He would [10:15] actually be best suited to find a [10:17] village girl and live a rural life, but [10:20] he insisted on finding a pampered [10:22] college student like Ma to prove his [10:24] life's value. [10:25] Do you find that hard to understand? [10:27] I don't think it's hard to understand, [10:29] but I think it represents a certain [10:30] male mentality. [10:31] I think it also represents a female [10:33] mentality; it represents human nature. [10:34] We all want what we don't have. [10:36] Exactly. Yes, for instance, why would [10:39] Ma Rong marry someone she honestly [10:41] looks down upon? She really does look [10:43] down on him. Think about it, such a [10:45] beautiful college student, going off [10:48] with someone who has no education... [10:50] He was a star, after all. [10:52] He was popular at the time, that's why. [10:55] She felt that if she chose another man, [10:58] he wouldn't be as rich or famous. It [11:02] shows that in Chinese marriages, women [11:04] still determine their willingness to [11:06] marry based on the resources a man [11:09] commands. I’m going to play devil’s [11:11] advocate here—how do you know she [11:13] never loved Wang Baoqiang? Perhaps they [11:16] truly loved each other, but the love [11:18] eventually faded away. How can you be [11:20] so sure there was no love? [11:22] I feel this is just a general, [11:24] universal marriage outlook among [11:26] Chinese people. The belief is that [11:29] women should marry wealthy men while [11:31] they are still young and pretty. If we [11:34] look at marriage as a market, wealthy [11:37] men are at the top of the pyramid, and [11:40] young, beautiful women are also at the [11:42] top. Therefore, such a transaction is [11:45] considered beautiful and follows the [11:48] natural order. Can I share a completely [11:51] different perspective with you? For me, [11:53] it’s actually the exact opposite of [11:55] what you’re saying. I don’t get [11:57] emotionally invested at all. [11:59] My favorite feeling, and I’ve [12:00] experienced it too, is like watching [12:02] from behind a pane of glass. To put it [12:04] bluntly, it’s like being at the zoo [12:06] —I’m just watching various things [12:07] unfold from behind the glass. I just [12:09] want to see what happened, what [12:11] happened, and then what happened next. [12:13] I don't expect it to solve any of my [12:15] real-life problems. They say that [12:19] gossiping has replaced the grooming [12:21] behavior that humans used to engage in. [12:24] You gossip, and that’s that. [12:27] The real significance of gossiping— [12:29] let me give you an academic explanation [12:32] . Back in the day, there were several [12:34] species on Earth that could have [12:36] evolved into humans. For example, in [12:39] Europe, there were the Neanderthals, [12:41] but our ancestors actually came from [12:43] Africa. Research indicates that those [12:46] who came from Africa are called Homo [12:48] sapiens. It’s said that at the time, [12:50] Homo sapiens weren’t as tall or as [12:53] handsome as the Neanderthals, and they [12:55] weren’t necessarily smarter, but [12:57] about 70,000 years ago, for some [12:59] inexplicable reason, we started [13:01] gossiping. That’s when Homo sapiens [13:04] began to gossip. And this kind of [13:07] language. It’s not that Neanderthals [13:09] didn't have similar linguistic [13:10] behaviors, but it is said that this [13:12] ability is what eventually allowed [13:14] humans to wipe them out. [13:15] Because gossiping implies the beginning [13:17] of prying into others' lives. [13:19] It’s information exchange. [13:20] Dense information exchange. Through [13:23] gossiping, you learn the local rumors, [13:24] you get a grasp of your surroundings, [13:26] and you realize the world is divided [13:28] into two—what’s on the surface and [13:30] what’s behind the scenes, but the [13:31] latter is what’s truly real. [13:33] Official statements are all like [13:34] Hillary's, you know what I mean? [13:36] Hillary speaks with absolute [13:38] correctness, yet it feels out of place, [13:40] but still. [13:41] I later discovered that you shouldn't [13:43] underestimate great figures in private, [13:45] including many of the most successful [13:48] CEOs I've observed. [13:49] For example, people like us are [13:51] honestly a bit autistic. [13:53] Hmm. [13:54] People like this can't have a big [13:55] vision because they're afraid to engage [13:57] with the outside world; it’s like, I [13:59] just write my own articles and don't [14:01] want to hear anything else, you know? [14:03] But I've found that many business [14:05] people, um... [14:06] If you ask around in a company who is [14:08] the biggest gossip—I'm not saying the [14:09] boss—but the boss asks the secretary [14:11] to find out things. You know, they use [14:13] this to grasp the true situation of the [14:15] company. You'd ask, what use is that to [14:17] them? Hmm. [14:18] I think it's always useful in the end. [14:20] It's just that by collecting this kind [14:22] of data—since the human brain is like [14:24] a computer processor—the more data [14:26] you collect, the better it is for your [14:28] decision-making. The richer your [14:30] information, the better your decisions [14:33] might be. [14:33] Information is power, it's authority. [14:37] So when Wentao says "the model is [14:40] life's guide," he's using very vivid [14:43] language to summarize my previous [14:45] argument. Because gossip itself, [14:48] choosing this topic is fun. I was [14:50] saying the more important part is what [14:52] comes next; let's look at its [14:53] relationship to us. Right, the very [14:55] term "Bagua"(eight trigrams) embodies [14:57] this meaning: Yin and Yang produce two [14:58] poles, two poles produce four symbols, [15:00] and four symbols produce the eight [15:01] trigrams. Yes, the source of "Bagua" is [15:03] male and female, which ultimately gave [15:05] birth to the whole world. And it covers [15:07] eight aspects. You know, take the Jane [15:09] Zhang mother-daughter issue; I saw this [15:11] in my social circle because I know [15:13] sisters of all different age groups— [15:15] not brothers, just sisters, sisters. [15:17] Mother and daughter, right? I found [15:19] that what they share—on the surface, [15:21] it all seems rational and egalitarian, [15:23] right? Everyone seems to say, "How [15:25] could the mother do that?" or "What's [15:27] wrong with the mother?" Do you think [15:29] it's really like that? There's also a " [15:32] mom circle," um... [15:33] What gets shared in the mom circle—do [15:34] you think you're the only one writing [15:35] articles? I see just as many articles [15:37] saying that raising children these days [15:39] is just raising an ungrateful wretch. [15:40] Right, they just never understand their [15:43] own parents. It's the same gossip. [15:45] Different people [15:47] don't change themselves through it; [15:49] instead, they reinforce their own views [15:51] . You, you, you—do you think her [15:53] mother shouldn't have done that? But [15:55] many parents sympathize with his mother [15:57] . Even under Jane Zhang’s Weibo [15:58] comments, people said "listen to your [16:00] mom," right? Jane said, "I'm not Jay [16:02] Chou, you know." [16:03] I think this phenomenon you're talking [16:05] about has to do with how quickly [16:06] articles are produced now; they haven't [16:07] even digested the gossip yet. [16:08] Just... [16:09] You know how hard we in self-media work [16:12] ? When news breaks, we have to put out [16:13] an article that same night. [16:15] How terrifying is that? Then... [16:18] How much nonsense gets written? [16:20] It doesn't matter. The point is that [16:21] you can write whatever, and the readers [16:23] won't take it seriously anyway. Isn't [16:25] that the saying? "Whoever takes it [16:27] seriously loses," right? You hear one [16:29] thing today, and tomorrow, oh, it's a [16:31] different story. You can just claim [16:32] something different happened, right? So [16:34] the gossip changes. [16:36] Right. I feel like this gossip actually [16:39] serves a purpose, doesn't it? It keeps [16:42] us from thinking too highly of [16:44] ourselves. I’ve realized something [16:47] lately, which is that no one should try [16:49] to act superior, you know? Whether [16:52] you’re an intellectual, a celebrity, [16:54] or a leader, when you face a personal [16:57] loss, your reaction is no different [16:59] from any ordinary person’s. We are [17:01] all just humans, right? Ever since we [17:04] started gossiping 70,000 years ago— [17:06] you finally realize that you’re just [17:08] a creature crawling on the ground. [17:09] You’re all the same. Many people [17:12] think they’re so superior, and they [17:14] get hurt when you talk about them. But [17:17] really, we’re all just the same [17:19] people. [17:20] Hmm, you're very kind, Teacher. [17:23] Because, because... [17:25] We are actually quite dark-hearted. Yes [17:28] , I really do think that whether it’s [17:30] strangers, people at the office, or [17:32] especially our family, wouldn’t it be [17:35] better to look at them more positively? [17:38] Returning to that point, sometimes what [17:40] you're saying is a need for validation. [17:43] We don't know what happened during the [17:45] process; maybe his mother did affirm [17:47] him, but he just didn't appreciate it. [17:50] When he finally achieved success, he [17:52] felt his mother was being controlling. [17:55] But perhaps her "fear" was actually a [17:58] form of her love. And in the end, [18:00] looking back, don't take a child's [18:02] words too seriously. I love my daughter [18:05] so much, but I’m sure that in front [18:08] of her friends, she definitely calls [18:10] her old man strict, stupid, a control [18:13] freak, or whatever. Because especially [18:16] at a certain stage, they view parents [18:18] from that perspective—they often [18:20] affirm themselves by denying their [18:23] parents, just as we’ve discussed. [18:25] Only when they reach a certain point, [18:27] having experienced setbacks and gained [18:30] their own achievements, can they truly [18:32] relate to their parents as equals. [18:34] Don't believe a word children say, [18:36] absolutely not. [18:37] You just keep waiting for that day. But [18:40] Tongtong, go ahead and say it. [18:42] You, why do you like gossip? [18:45] I think it is. Don't you think gossip [18:47] is a form of information exchange? [18:49] What kind of information exchange? [18:51] Just exchanging information about [18:52] everything. I’ve never thought of [18:54] gossip—whenever others bring it up, I [18:55] don't see it as something degrading. [18:57] Gossip is just life itself. Oh yes, I [18:59] think there are many details in gossip [19:01] that are very interesting, and you can [19:03] study people. [19:03] Studying all these different states, I [19:06] think it’s so fascinating. [19:07] For instance, analyze a situation or a [19:10] celebrity for me to hear. [19:14] There are so many, like when I saw Wang [19:17] Baoqiang going through his divorce, [19:19] driving to court in this cheap, red car [19:22] . [19:24] It must have been intentional. Don't [19:26] you think that’s interesting? [19:28] I would have just taken a taxi. [19:30] Don't you think that’s interesting? [19:32] He definitely has access to very nice [19:35] cars, yet he drove this cheap, red one. [19:38] That is interesting, Tong, but I’m [19:40] curious about many things in the world. [19:43] Watching a play is interesting, seeing [19:45] an art exhibition is interesting. [19:47] But why specifically gossip? I like [19:50] gossip too, don't get me wrong. It’s [19:52] not that I don’t follow it, I’m [19:54] just curious why. [19:55] Where there is comparison, there is [19:57] humblebragging. Mm. [19:58] Hey, do you think people really want to [20:01] live well and safely, or do they want [20:03] to look better than others? [20:06] You see, your sense of living well and [20:08] safely is always derived from comparing [20:11] yourself to others. There isn't really [20:14] an absolute standard for what is "good" [20:16] or "safe," is there? [20:18] That’s why I think the current flood [20:21] of these buzzwords is worth being wary [20:23] of. Why? Look at it—terms like [20:27] humblebragging, financial freedom, [20:30] involution, and lying flat. Let me tell [20:33] you a scenario. One day, a few friends [20:37] and I were chatting, and they were [20:39] talking about "involution" and "lying [20:42] flat." I suddenly remembered that [20:46] afternoon we had a meeting to discuss [20:49] topics. It was back in July or August, [20:54] and someone suggested we talk about [20:57] involution and lying flat. Then the [21:00] editor immediately said, "By the time [21:02] we air this, it’ll already be October [21:04] ." It wouldn't be this topic anymore at [21:06] that time. I suddenly had an epiphany [21:11] about this detail: these buzzwords [21:13] people often use undeniably have a [21:16] basis in reality. But I think one needs [21:21] to consider this from multiple [21:23] perspectives. I wonder what people in [21:26] our industry do all day. I was suddenly [21:31] reminded of the first half of my life, [21:33] spent constantly talking about these [21:35] topics—like when you used to run a [21:38] magazine. [21:40] Mm. [21:41] I know how it goes; everyone tosses out [21:44] ten topics, and finally, as [21:45] editor-in-chief, I have the final say. [21:48] I decide the topic for the issue. So [21:51] back then, I'd chat with my friends and [21:53] say, from my perspective as a media [21:56] professional, I’d like to raise a [21:58] point. I’d ask, is "involution" [22:00] really such an important issue right [22:03] now? Is "lying flat" really that [22:05] significant? Everyone has their own [22:08] daily concerns. Today, I might be [22:11] worried about my house needing [22:13] renovations. You might be worried about [22:16] a breakup, and someone else might be [22:18] worried about their divorce. But where [22:21] does this all come from? You know, I [22:24] wouldn't call it a conspiracy, but [22:27] often, when we choose a topic, we hope [22:29] it makes people feel like, "Oh, [22:31] everyone around me is talking about [22:34] this." If I don't, I’ll talk about it [22:36] too. And the seductive or deceptive [22:38] nature of language lies right there. [22:40] Exactly. Take "involution," for example [22:43] . Is it real? You’d think so, right? [22:46] The competition is fierce, and work is [22:47] miserable, right? "Lying flat"—is it [22:49] real? It is. But what if I brought up [22:52] another issue? What if I asked, is [22:53] housing in short supply? You’d [22:55] immediately say, "Yes." Housing is [22:57] tight right now. I tell you, sometimes [22:59] when you look at a magazine's theme for [23:01] the month, doesn't it feel just like a [23:03] trendy color in fashion? Every year, [23:05] fashion magazines announce the "it" [23:07] color for the spring. But what [23:09] determines that trend? The problem is [23:11] that this language can create an [23:13] illusion. [23:14] Mm. [23:15] Mm. [23:16] That one is selling fashion, while this [23:18] one is selling anxiety. [23:20] Right? I’m not saying these issues [23:23] don't exist, but I’m saying that [23:25] people experience life in a thousand [23:27] different ways. It’s like the " [23:29] hundred flavors of life" you mentioned; [23:31] I can resonate with whatever you say. [23:33] My feeling is that it’s like being in [23:36] the vast ocean, and then needing to [23:38] give every single wave a name. Actually [23:40] , the buzzwords we see emerging now are [23:43] just little splashes, but while you're [23:45] in this ocean, what you should really [23:47] care about is the current underneath. [23:49] Can you see the true direction of the [23:51] tide and what this vast ocean really [23:53] looks like? But why do these little [23:56] splashes keep popping up? Because these [23:58] things are always there; take " [23:59] involution," isn't that just what we [24:01] used to call competition? It's just [24:03] that there must be constantly new names [24:05] , new names to pin everyone's shared [24:08] emotions onto. It’s not necessarily [24:10] anxiety, maybe it’s also... [24:12] In a few months, we won't talk about [24:14] this; it's quite interesting. For [24:16] example, careful, do you think " [24:18] Versailles" has recently become a [24:20] keyword because people keep mentioning [24:22] it? [24:22] You hear it again and again, " [24:24] Versailles" at the drop of a hat. [24:28] Especially on Moments or Weibo, it [24:31] takes on many different forms. Some [24:37] people open a very expensive bottle, [24:40] take a photo, and post it there. Right, [24:44] and then...And then... [24:47] Yes, exactly, I'm drinking again, hmm, [24:50] here we go again, yeah. Giving the [24:52] impression that they are immersed in [24:54] such expensive wine every single day. [24:56] That might be "Versailles," and the [24:58] comments below all say, "You're being [25:01] so Versailles." There are also positive [25:03] examples, like our professor Zhong [25:06] Nanshan, right? He said in a talk that [25:08] our country's testing, or whatever it [25:11] is, regarding the research on COVID-19, [25:13] we have a dilemma: we don't have enough [25:16] cases, we have too few cases. [25:18] That was stating a fact. [25:20] That was a fact, so I'm not saying it's [25:22] a derogatory term; I'm saying you can [25:24] see how language can be studied—once [25:26] a term becomes popular, everyone uses [25:28] it to express all sorts of things. The [25:30] first time I saw it, I really didn't [25:32] understand. I posted a photo of a book [25:34] published by Commercial Press in Hong [25:36] Kong. It was two volumes, this thick. I [25:39] posted the photo and just added one [25:42] sentence. I said this is probably the [25:44] last book I will write in my life, the [25:47] last book—not the final one, but the [25:49] last because it has 600,000 words. As a [25:52] result, my WeChat Moments received the [25:54] most likes and support ever; there was [25:57] a whole line of comments, and the last [25:59] one was from Pan Kaixiong, the former [26:01] president of the People's Literature [26:03] Publishing House, who added, " [26:05] Versailles." I didn't understand it at [26:08] the time. What does that mean? Later [26:10] they said, it means that when you are [26:12] choosing, you are not showing off [26:14] enough. If you say you don't understand [26:16] such a thick book, my interpretation [26:18] might not be correct either. Basically, [26:21] it's using this seemingly, how should I [26:24] put it, complaining tone, but actually [26:26] it's unintentional, though sometimes [26:29] it's done quite intentionally, [26:31] revealing one's superiority. For [26:33] example, you see, "Oh, driving a sports [26:36] car to work every day, I really feel [26:39] it's very dangerous. I'd rather walk, [26:41] our courtyard is just too big, right?"" [26:44] To go to school, I walk 200 meters, but [26:47] just walking across our courtyard alone [26:49] takes 150 meters." I, I sort of [26:52] understood. [26:55] So I reflected: what part of what I [26:58] said was "humble-bragging"? Later, Li [27:01] Cun wrote a reply to me. " [27:03] Hmm, you're actually serious about this [27:06] ? It means that in the end, you could [27:08] have actually written more. Using this [27:10] to belittle yourself is actually [27:12] showing off," that’s roughly what it [27:14] meant. I don't know if their [27:16] interpretation is correct, but since [27:18] the person who wrote it to me is a [27:19] famous critic, they called me a " [27:21] humble-bragger." [27:22] He wasn't serious, it might have just [27:24] been some banter between friends. [27:26] Yeah. [27:28] Counting money is such a hassle. [27:30] Why not just use WeChat? That kind of [27:33] meaning. [27:34] Absolutely no such meaning. I once saw [27:37] someone in my social circle post that [27:39] they were going to mop the floor, and [27:41] how was that photo taken? It was from [27:44] high above, showing them kneeling on [27:46] their balcony, butt in the air, [27:48] scrubbing the balcony floor. But the [27:51] panoramic view showed their house was [27:53] on a mountain. Then, the photo was [27:56] clearly taken by a drone. Just looking [27:58] at the angle, it must be a drone. To [28:00] take just one such photo, you need [28:02] several people to assist, you know? [28:04] Right? And this person also, they had [28:07] other things; every one of their photos [28:08] was designed with such a great feel. [28:10] They went for afternoon tea. And you [28:12] see, it's not just some ordinary person [28:14] taking a picture of food; it's from [28:16] very far away, that hotel-style [28:18] afternoon tea, those little tiered [28:20] stands. [28:21] They are in the corner, but the [28:22] background is sharp, the foreground is [28:25] blurred. Just for this one photo, how [28:27] many people were involved? [28:28] Yijun, now you try to "humble-brag" [28:31] yourself. I, I don't have that talent, [28:33] I don't have that, oh my. [28:35] I have to go to Afghanistan again. [28:37] No, it's that I have to chat with such [28:39] talented people again. [28:41] Does this count or not count as [28:43] humble-bragging? Learning. [28:45] It's just that I get to chat with such [28:48] talented people, and they keep saying [28:51] I'm talented, it's so annoying. [28:53] Sending it now, I'm sending it right [28:56] now, right now. [28:57] Wentao, [28:58] Flex a little. No, my show has too many [29:02] ads now, it’s really annoying, why [29:05] are there so many ads? [29:09] Alright. [29:10] Hey, Xiaoni, what can you analyze from [29:13] this? [29:15] Uh, there is a kind of boasting called [29:18] "crying poor." [29:19] There is a kind of boasting called " [29:22] crying poor." Yes, uh, Versailles-style [29:25] bragging, I think Professor Xu should [29:28] do some research on it, because at the [29:30] end of the day, it's a rhetorical [29:32] device. [29:34] Mhm. [29:35] Mhm. [29:36] It is, it is a rhetorical device, just [29:38] like the metaphors or whatever we [29:40] talked about before, [29:41] This [29:43] It's about the same, it's a game of [29:46] text. But behind it, there is indeed a [29:48] psychology of revealing a sense of [29:50] superiority. [29:51] Mhm, an accidental reveal. [29:53] Accidental. [29:54] Mhm. [29:55] Why can't people help but reveal their [29:57] sense of superiority? This is truly [29:59] regardless of how deep your cultivation [30:02] is, the difference I've seen is that [30:04] the more cultivated you are, The [30:05] thicker your "defensive" skin, or even [30:07] for everyone it's different. The more [30:10] effortless the reveal is, right? [30:12] Yes. [30:13] It seems, it seems very natural that [30:16] way. [30:16] But why can't one help but always want [30:19] to reveal it? For example, ah, am I... [30:21] does this count as revealing a sense of [30:24] superiority? [30:24] Go on, go on, tell us. [30:26] I think there is a contradiction in my [30:28] heart. I actually belong to the type of [30:30] person who keeps a low profile. [30:32] I am particularly afraid. [30:34] For instance, of course I have no money [30:37] , but if I really had some, I think in [30:40] my heart I'm the type who's afraid of [30:42] others knowing, I'm afraid others will [30:45] know, I feel it's unsafe. So, sometimes [30:48] I can't quite understand, why would you [30:51] want others to know? [30:53] Let me examine my first experience of " [30:56] Versailles-style" bragging, perhaps [30:58] this is one, you see if it is. [31:01] The term "Versailles" is related to the [31:03] Palace of Versailles. That day, it was [31:06] past 2 PM, I was still in Nice and [31:08] booked a hotel in Paris; they said it [31:11] was a seven-hour drive. But I was, on [31:13] this road, delayed all the way. By the [31:16] time I drove to Lyon, although it was [31:18] still light out, it was already past 8 [31:20] PM. You know, summer in France is like [31:23] that, past 8 PM. After I finished [31:25] eating and started driving again, it [31:27] became pitch black. This stretch of [31:29] road is the most exhausting one I can [31:32] remember, driving and having to pass [31:34] all those massive container trucks one [31:36] by one, it was like that. I was falling [31:38] asleep, I was really in danger. So how [31:41] did I get through it? I was with my [31:44] daughter, she was very young then, not [31:46] even ten. She was interested in Chinese [31:49] measure words, like why is a belt "yi [31:52] tiao" instead of "yi gen"? [31:53] Can we say "yi gen"? [31:56] Why is a pair of shoes "yi shuang"? You [31:59] know, after she kept asking me, I [32:01] really realized Chinese measure words [32:04] are very, very numerous, complex, and [32:06] some don't even make sense. Why is a [32:09] person "yi ge," a sheep "yi zhi," or [32:12] things like "yi tiao ming"(a life) or " [32:15] yi ba shengyin"(a voice)? Relying on [32:18] this, I managed to drive into Paris [32:20] before midnight. The area around the [32:22] Eiffel Tower was still bright. But I [32:25] still took a wrong turn. I actually [32:27] ended up driving to Versailles in the [32:29] middle of the night. -saille. [32:31] I drove to Versailles; of course, there [32:33] were no cars or people at that hour. [32:36] Then I drove back, it was past one, and [32:38] I finally checked into the hotel. That [32:40] was my first time in Versailles, and I [32:42] didn't even go in. Does this story [32:44] count as "flexing"? It's a bit of a [32:46] flex, people feel like, "Wow, you were [32:48] able to travel to France." [32:50] And it was over 20 years ago. [32:52] Oh, over 20 years ago, we were so poor, [32:54] yet you could go to France—think of [32:57] the cost, but also the family [32:58] background. [32:59] Everything is true. [33:01] Not a single thing is exaggerated, it's [33:04] all true. It's also a flex. [33:06] I, I am thinking. [33:07] It has nothing to do with whether it's [33:09] true or not. Right, why people like to [33:10] "flex," I don't have a very good answer [33:12] . But I guess, because many human [33:14] behaviors can be explained by reward [33:17] mechanisms. I mean, could it be that [33:19] this provides a reward mechanism for a [33:21] person, so I do it? For instance, [33:24] people say why someone likes [33:26] good-looking people—because their [33:28] beauty is a reward for you, or you like [33:31] people who help you because their help [33:33] is a reward. So could it be that [33:36] someone who flexes knows they will gain [33:38] a lot of envious looks? Hmm. [33:41] I will gain—even if people are [33:42] jealous or hateful, they still look, [33:44] just for that moment. That's what I [33:46] always wonder about people who...I mean [33:49] , I think many people buy those sports [33:51] cars to drive on the street, or paint [33:53] them in flashy colors, and I always [33:55] think, they're sitting inside and can't [33:58] see it, but in their mind, they're [34:00] picturing everyone along the way with [34:02] their mouths wide open, that sense of [34:04] turning heads. Do you think he feels [34:06] that "Versailles-ing" is a way to reap [34:09] such rewards? You mean people need this [34:11] ? [34:12] I think they do. I feel that " [34:14] Versailles" is judged more from the [34:16] perspective of the observer to [34:18] determine if it is "Versailles." There [34:20] must be a discrepancy in roles. Just [34:23] like what Professor Xu mentioned [34:25] earlier, he went abroad early, which [34:27] isn't particularly noteworthy. [34:29] Oh, you think there's a difference. [34:31] And one's persona. [34:34] Hmm. [34:35] Or a discrepancy between this persona [34:37] and what everyone knows. I am a food [34:40] blogger. [34:41] Right. [34:42] I can talk about how this bun is made [34:44] well, and how it is this, this, this, [34:46] and that. [34:47] No one would call that "Versailles." [34:49] Definitely wouldn't call it "Versailles [34:51] ." If... [34:54] I say, "Uh, I taste such and such [34:56] flavors in this red wine." [35:00] I even feel the sea breeze of the [35:03] Mediterranean. [35:04] Then people might think, "Hey, isn't [35:05] this person supposed to be making food [35:07] for the common folks?""Why is he saying [35:09] this?" This could be... [35:11] But one element is missing: you didn't [35:12] act coy. [35:13] Oh, right, right, right. [35:14] Yes, you also have to complain. [35:16] Yes, exactly. "Oh, you thought I [35:18] couldn't taste it? You thought I [35:20] couldn't discern it? Actually, I only [35:23] missed one flavor." That might carry a [35:26] hint of "Versailles." So, whether [35:28] intentional or not, the speaker...It's [35:30] actually the English word " [35:32] sophisticated," right? A more cultured [35:35] way to express one's sense of [35:36] superiority. [35:37] More complex. [35:39] More complex, using techniques like [35:40] self-deprecation before showing off, [35:42] and so on. But the important thing is [35:45] that the word "Versailles" is used by [35:47] the spectators, the onlookers. The [35:50] point of discussion isn't just the [35:53] speaker's rhetorical skills, but the [35:55] public's sentiment. I think that's the [35:58] real key. [35:59] Why do people find this kind of remark [36:02] so repulsive? It’s even more annoying [36:05] than when celebrities directly show off [36:08] their clothes or whatever else. That [36:10] would be low-level, so it wouldn't be [36:12] called "Versailles." [36:13] Right, that's just bragging. [36:15] But many viral "flops" online happen [36:17] just like that. Someone might post a [36:19] photo or share something without any [36:21] intent to show off; they're just [36:23] talking about the event, but then [36:24] everyone notices, "Oh!""Actually, how [36:26] much does that outfit you're wearing [36:28] cost?" [36:29] No, especially when it's done using [36:31] skillful methods. [36:32] But you can't just say it like that. [36:35] Take the example of Zhong Nanshan I [36:37] mentioned; it’s a sense of shame— [36:40] meaning you are intentionally or [36:42] unintentionally using a subtle tone to [36:44] reveal a sense of superiority. [36:47] Meaning one still agrees with him and [36:49] thinks he's good. [36:50] Yeah, sometimes I think the "Versailles [36:53] " style doesn't necessarily spark [36:55] hatred. Nowadays, the term is used so [36:57] much that it's often just a fun way [36:59] friends chat. You see, sometimes you're [37:02] just showing off a little, you can't [37:04] help but be a bit smug. " [37:05] Showing off" is a bit like that. Hmm. [37:08] Yeah, showing off with a bit of skill. [37:10] That word is tricky, it's Beijing...... [37:12] dialect, right? You don't have that [37:14] term in Shanghainese. [37:15] Or maybe it's Northeastern dialect. [37:17] You don't have this expression in [37:19] Shanghainese. [37:20] Is it a bit...? [37:22] The two of us are kind of, it seems [37:24] we've hit on something. So, what kind [37:27] of people feel the need to show off [37:29] their superiority? Actually, have you [37:32] thought about this? If we’re being [37:34] serious, if they use a subtle way—or [37:37] hope to be discreet about it—it at [37:39] least shows they’re still a bit shy. [37:41] Hmm. [37:43] Compared to just saying "I'm rich," [37:45] right? [37:45] Subtlety is actually more lethal. [37:48] Because, as they say, beauty that [37:50] doesn't know it's beautiful is even [37:51] more beautiful. So if they are superior [37:54] and yet complain, that's even more [37:56] damaging. Do you ever have that sense [37:58] of loss when comparing yourself to [38:00] others? [38:02] I think it’s rare, though it’s [38:05] impossible to say it never happens. [38:08] Do you compare yourself to other [38:11] documentary masters or teams? [38:14] Uh, not really with documentaries. [38:17] But perhaps... [38:19] This is also a type of "Versailles," a [38:23] type of showing off. When I say things [38:28] like this, there’s a... [38:32] Northeastern "Versailles," meaning, you [38:34] first talk about someone, for example, [38:37] someone who picks fights with everyone [38:39] and is never satisfied, and then you [38:41] say, "Then why are you friends with [38:43] them?" He wouldn't say it directly, [38:46] he'd go around it to be more [38:48] sophisticated. Hmm, I don't mean it [38:51] that way. Among peers, I rarely have [38:55] those comparisons, but my perspective [38:58] is often different from others. Take [39:02] financial independence, for example. I [39:06] can't even imagine if I'd be able to [39:09] walk peacefully to the end of my life [39:11] after achieving it. I don't...I think, [39:15] I really, I'm not being "Versailles." [39:18] I...I agree with your point. [39:21] This is "faking the truth, and the true [39:23] is fake"—he’s speaking the truth. [39:25] He is speaking the truth, I believe him [39:28] . But the effect is that his work [39:30] brings him so much joy that money [39:31] doesn't matter. [39:32] No, and most importantly, he won't [39:35] retire. Do you know how incredible that [39:37] is? For many, retirement is a hurdle at [39:39] a certain point, but you can just keep [39:41] filming. [39:42] Oh, provided your health is good, [39:44] though. [39:44] Many of the seniors I know. Hmm. [39:47] Are, for example... [39:49] Big, don't pick up the big hair. I said [39:53] yes, the big hair. The big hair is me, [39:56] I know one person, he's the one who [39:59] made the Planet Earth documentary, [40:01] called Michel Gon. This, this Gon, when [40:08] he joined the BBC, the first thing [40:11] Attenborough told him was, "You've [40:14] arrived at the BBC Natural History Unit [40:17] , you will face this beautiful Earth, [40:20] this future is yours." But I'm about to [40:27] retire, seven years and I'm retired, [40:30] while Gon is still filming. Then [40:34] there’s a documentary director I [40:36] really respect, Jean Rouch, the pioneer [40:39] of what we call French ethnographic [40:41] film. Back in the 50s, he shot many [40:45] films, like "Chronicle of a Summer" and [40:48] a whole bunch of documentaries about [40:50] African people. He passed away in a car [40:55] accident in Africa when he was over 80. [41:00] Then there's Shindo Kaneto, Japan's [41:03] most formidable and most famous film [41:05] director; even at the very last moment [41:08] of his life, he was still checking the [41:10] editing of his work. I think, well, on [41:18] one hand, I really respect these [41:20] seniors who could extend their life's [41:23] work for so long; at the same time, [41:26] deep down, I really crave that feeling [41:29] of being needed by others. If no one [41:36] needs me anymore, no one needs my ideas [41:39] , no one needs my creativity, I think [41:42] that would be truly pathetic. Is it [41:45] still a "Versailles" flex to say that? [41:47] That is a very sincere form of [41:48] humble-bragging. I see, okay. [41:51] I hear a sense of childhood misfortune [41:52] in that. [41:53] Why, why, why? [41:56] I feel like this relies a bit too much [41:58] on others 'need for you. [41:59] Yes. [42:00] Just that someone needs me. [42:02] Mm. It’s about your, your life value, [42:06] right? [42:06] I don't have this, really no life value [42:10] . This is a common wish for almost all [42:12] intellectuals or professionals: that my [42:15] work is still useful, that I am still [42:18] useful in this world—that is a part [42:21] of life. [42:21] Work is his greatest pleasure. [42:24] No, I've said this elsewhere, it's not [42:27] exactly that it's the greatest pleasure [42:29] ; work is just—when you don't have it [42:32] , you'll know its terror. [42:34] In my 50s, there were three years in my [42:37] life when I didn't shoot a single film. [42:42] Oh, I told others too, when I was young [42:45] I really wanted to be famous, then I [42:47] seemed to have won some awards and had [42:50] some status in the industry— [42:52] humble-brag expression. [42:54] Yes, yes, yes, these two people. [42:59] At that time, for instance, after [43:01] achieving career goals and such, I’d [43:04] think, "Oh, if only this could turn [43:06] into money so I could live a bit better [43:08] ." But before that actually happened, I [43:13] was struggling. When you're filming, [43:17] the day you realize you have nothing [43:19] left to film—oh, that's when you know [43:22] that nobody actually needs you to make [43:24] films anymore. That was truly, that was [43:28] the most painful, the lowest point of [43:32] my life. [43:32] But financial freedom is about having [43:34] the choice not to work, isn't it? [43:36] Actually, thinking about it now, that [43:38] is a level of financial freedom. [43:40] It's that you can keep doing what [43:42] you've done your whole life, [43:43] Right. [43:44] And you're not doing it just for the [43:46] money. [43:46] Mm. [43:47] That is financial freedom. It means [43:50] this person no longer loses their [43:52] freedom because of finances. That's how [43:54] I interpret it. [43:55] Mm. What do you think? Tell me what [43:58] you're thinking. [43:59] My son asked me, "What if people don't [44:01] like the films you make in the future?" [44:05] I said, "Then I don't have to make them [44:08] . I could write, or become a voice [44:12] actor, or start my own podcast. I think [44:16] those are all things that are very [44:18] important to me." [44:21] Voice actor? Yes. [44:25] It's the art of sound. [44:27] Not the ghost, not the...it's the one [44:30] who performs. [44:31] The actor, the "actor" part. [44:33] Is that a real term? [44:34] Voice actor. [44:36] Oh, many people say your voice has that [44:38] special magnetism, like this. [44:40] I used to narrate all my early [44:42] documentaries myself. [44:44] See, that's a humble-brag. [44:47] I, I, I'll tell you a more classic [44:50] humble-brag. People later asked, "Why [44:52] don't you narrate your own films [44:54] anymore?" I said, "Oh, my rates are too [44:57] high, I can't afford myself." That's it [45:00] , exactly, spot on, spot on. [45:03] We've got all sorts of humble-brags in [45:05] our live stream today. But, but I think [45:09] this is actually a very interesting [45:12] question. You know, like some women who [45:16] post a bag on social media that's way [45:18] above their spending level. I always [45:21] wonder... [45:22] That's the misalignment we were talking [45:24] about earlier. [45:24] Right, it's the satisfaction of vanity. [45:27] Back in the day, as someone from Hebei, [45:29] I thought very pragmatically. I'd say, [45:32] "I want fulfillment, not vanity." That [45:35] was my rather naive perspective back [45:37] then. But later I thought, if it's [45:39] purely to make others envious, I have [45:41] to start being practical. I’m a [45:43] practical person. What specific benefit [45:46] does one get from that? For instance, [45:48] let me give you an example: I’m a [45:50] homebody. I rarely interact with people [45:52] and I don't go out. Honestly, whether [45:54] you respect me or not doesn't really [45:56] matter to me, right? So, I don't [45:59] understand why some people feel the [46:01] need to use these vanity status symbols [46:04] —like wearing a certain lipstick or [46:06] posting a photo from a trip to [46:08] Versailles—when they can't actually [46:10] afford that lifestyle. What actual [46:14] benefit does that bring them? [46:16] It elevates them and makes them feel [46:19] bigger. [46:19] Some might think, "Oh, I could give [46:21] this person some money," but they [46:23] wouldn't. [46:24] No, it can actually undermine them. If [46:26] they have feelings of inferiority, it [46:28] might help improve them or boost their [46:30] self-esteem. Money, fame, and material [46:33] things all boil down to your own [46:35] feelings, your own sense of self. If [46:39] you're feeling very inferior and think [46:41] life is meaningless, but you read three [46:44] or four books this week and take a [46:46] photo of them—maybe even some [46:48] high-brow ones, like Freud or Marx— [46:50] isn't that a good thing? And this is [46:52] something that is truly their own. [46:55] Then why do they need to show it off? [46:57] I just don't get it. Why take a photo [47:00] while you're reading? Also, you often [47:02] post photos on Weibo of piles of books [47:05] people send you, which I envy. We have [47:07] to pay for our own books. [47:09] I—uh, 80%of them I bought myself. [47:12] Oh, you bought them yourself? [47:13] Yes. [47:14] Oh. [47:15] 80%of them; I've achieved financial [47:17] freedom. [47:17] Oh, wow. This is just like buying an [47:21] iPhone; it's the same principle. That's [47:24] even more annoying, that's " [47:26] humblebragging" at its peak. [47:28] Actually, anything stated directly [47:30] shouldn't be called a "humblebrag"— [47:32] that's a bit low-end. It's only a [47:34] humblebrag if you state it indirectly, [47:37] you know? I have many foodie friends; [47:42] maybe they went to Europe and collected [47:44] 12 Michelin stars this trip. If you are [47:50] full of joy, no one will call that " [47:52] humblebragging." But, if you say, "I [47:54] went to Europe this time, but I was so [47:57] busy with clients that I only collected [47:59] five stars," that is "humblebragging." [48:02] It implies a complaint, and it's a [48:04] rhetorical device. Professor Xu, you [48:06] should look into this. But regarding [48:08] what Professor Xu said, I really wonder [48:11] if it's true. Look, everyone [48:13] unashamedly says that money is [48:15] important. Making money seems to be a [48:18] shared value, but in reality, that's [48:21] not necessarily true—even you might [48:23] not value money the most. Especially [48:26] now that our country has become more [48:28] prosperous, right? Once people are [48:32] well-fed and clothed, they still want [48:35] to be respected, or even envied, by [48:37] others. True happiness ultimately comes [48:42] from within, right? Of course, no one [48:45] denies the importance of money, but I [48:47] really feel that in this sense, many of [48:50] those "humble-braggers" aren't actually [48:53] driven by materialism. [48:54] Yeah. [48:55] They are seeking emotional fulfillment. [48:59] Perhaps they were rarely respected, or [49:02] they deeply crave respect and [49:04] validation from others. Remember those [49:08] children whose parents were always like [49:10] , "Look at so-and-so, why can't you be [49:12] more like them?" I've found that there [49:15] are indeed parents like that, even in [49:17] our generation. I don't know why [49:19] they've been belittling them since [49:21] childhood. Belittling their own [49:22] children—why would you do that? I [49:24] think it’s just too much, it [49:26] shouldn't happen. [49:27] Maybe to motivate them. [49:29] Are they Jackie Chan? [49:31] I think we shouldn't just talk about [49:33] others; none of us can escape, can we? [49:36] The deepest psychological need is to be [49:39] seen and cared for; no one can escape [49:41] that. Even if someone claims to be [49:43] indifferent to fame and fortune, deep [49:46] down, everyone wants to be seen. Why [49:49] humble-brag then? Is it because I want [49:52] you all to care about me? Just wanting [49:54] to get that kind of attention from [49:55] others. [49:56] Someone who truly isn't successful [49:57] saying they're indifferent to fame and [49:59] fortune. That’s not a humble-brag. If [50:01] you're already very successful and you [50:03] say you're indifferent to it, that’s [50:05] a humble-brag. Who are you talking [50:07] about? [50:10] Oh, now that you mention it, I remember [50:13] I never brag about my dad, but that's [50:15] because I don't have one to brag about. [50:18] That was a bit late, the timing was a [50:20] bit off. [50:22] But the one time I "showed off" my dad [50:24] was this morning, since I'm here [50:26] filming, I’ve brought him to live [50:28] with me. Because their generation has a [50:32] different way of spending; they only [50:35] eat leftovers. You must resonate with [50:38] this, given your own father. [50:41] He has diabetes, and when we checked, [50:44] he was extremely malnourished. [50:46] Extremely. I told him, "Living on your [50:49] own, you've let yourself get into this [50:52] state, you know?" Because I'm busy and [50:54] didn't want him to cook, so I just [50:56] ordered takeout. Takeout usually costs [50:59] a few dozen yuan; I eat like that too. [51:02] When I came to film yesterday, you know [51:05] ? Because every time the delivery comes [51:08] , I tear off the price tag on the [51:10] outside. [51:10] Mm. [51:11] Yesterday, since I was recording here, [51:13] I could only tell him to go get it [51:15] himself. He thought 76 yuan for a meal [51:18] was expensive. I ordered eel rice for [51:20] him because the doctor said he should [51:22] eat more fish, right? He said, "76 yuan [51:26] ?""That's my living expense for a whole [51:29] week." He secretly asked when I’m [51:31] going back, you know? Now I don't know [51:33] how to deal with him when I go back. He [51:35] wants to leave; he won't stay with me [51:37] here anymore. He says, "I've been [51:38] eating at your place for a month."" [51:40] You're giving me this money every day, [51:43] and we're eating like this." I was in a [51:45] rush to record today, I didn't know [51:47] what to do, I was so anxious. He wants [51:50] to leave, you know. I started getting [51:53] flustered, I just panicked. I said, " [51:55] This meal, this few dozen yuan for this [51:57] food, let me tell you." I picked up the [52:00] wine and said, "Look at this red wine; [52:02] it's actually just two bottles for 299 [52:03] yuan from the supermarket downstairs, [52:05] you know?""I drink 5,000-yuan bottles [52:08] every day, you know?" Then I pointed to [52:10] the painting hanging in front, and said [52:11] , "Do you know how much this painting [52:13] is worth?""It’s worth over a hundred [52:15] million. Well, it really is..." [52:17] It's a high-quality replica, a print, a [52:20] reproduction. I said, "You..."" [52:22] It's really a masterpiece," not [52:24] literally a real painting—how could I [52:26] have one? [52:27] Oh, I just... [52:28] This is flexing at a very high level. I [52:31] said, "You..." [52:32] What a pun. I said, "This few dozen [52:35] yuan for a meal is nothing to you, do [52:38] you understand?" In the end, without [52:40] thinking, I blurted out the one [52:42] sentence I hate the most. What did you [52:44] say? I said, "You can't imagine the [52:46] life of the wealthy." [52:48] And you're afraid he'll lecture you, I [52:50] ... [52:51] On the way back here, I was thinking, [52:53] why did I say that to him? I just [52:56] wanted to tell him, you know? But in [52:59] reality, you know, my father isn't [53:01] actually short on money. [53:03] But you know... [53:05] It's his lifestyle habit. [53:06] It's just his lifestyle. He just [53:08] insists on being so stingy with himself [53:10] , oh my... [53:11] You're not just flexing, you're a [53:13] show-off. [53:14] Thinking about it now, I don't even [53:15] know how to describe the mix of [53:17] emotions. I've never bragged about [53:19] being rich to anyone in my life. You [53:20] showed off this morning. [53:22] You did that to solve a problem. Mm, [53:25] but... [53:26] I’m telling you, I’m really not a [53:27] wealthy person, let's just be clear [53:29] about that upfront. [53:30] Really, it’s not top-tier, but not [53:31] bottom-tier either; it's just a [53:33] middle-class life. Right, don't get the [53:35] wrong idea, don't have any [53:36] misunderstandings, don't come robbing [53:38] my house. I think for many people in a [53:40] general sense, you might think I’m [53:42] not humble-bragging. I don't want to [53:43] show off to strangers, but you can't [53:45] avoid it in small circles. People just [53:47] can't help it, really. For instance, [53:49] when we were filming*Xing Tian Xia*, [53:51] they’d often grab me and ask, "Hey, [53:52] how's the texture of this outfit I'm [53:54] wearing?" Isn't that just me [53:55] humble-bragging? I mean, you’ll [53:57] always end up in a situation where [53:58] you're teaching me how to dress. Passed [54:00] to you. [54:01] But he wore clothes from that brand, so [54:04] I bought one too. [54:07] My family members were so suspicious, [54:10] asking where I bought this piece of [54:12] clothing. [54:14] Right, and he kept saying that. [54:16] This is just because the roles are [54:18] different, there's that. [54:20] It really is different, I am just blue. [54:23] This is what I call humble-bragging. [54:26] He is the blue one. [54:28] You are a blue-collar worker. [54:30] Even your collar is blue. [54:32] You don't even know what "blue" is; [54:34] that’s how out of touch you are. [54:36] Collar, white-collar. [54:38] This has now turned into a "mutual [54:39] humble-bragging" mode, you know? We [54:41] must be vigilant, but vanity is [54:43] definitely a driving force for human [54:45] progress; that’s beyond doubt. [54:47] Hmm, everyone longs for success. [54:50] That’s certain. Sometimes, if you're [54:53] too desperate for success, it might [54:56] slip out unintentionally, that’s the [54:58] humble-bragging. If you take it lightly [55:02] , you just don't mention it. Perhaps [55:07] many people need this kind of [55:09] motivation, needing others to be [55:12] envious, to gain some inner balance by [55:14] posting photos of the fancy food [55:16] you’re eating on Weibo. But then you [55:22] have people like restaurant PRs who eat [55:24] this stuff all day. You’d realize [55:28] that it’s just their daily routine, [55:31] not some particularly extravagant [55:33] lifestyle. But for someone whose income [55:37] isn't that high, you take a few photos [55:40] like that and post them on Weibo. To [55:43] what extent has Guangdong developed now [55:46] ? At a nice restaurant, the moment you [55:51] pick up your camera, the waiter will [55:53] turn on an LED light for you. [55:56] My god. [55:58] They even help you with the lighting to [56:00] take the photo, yep. [56:01] The quality of the photos ends up being [56:04] really good. [56:05] What if I say I’ll just use my [56:07] phone's built-in light? That won't work [56:09] , that definitely won't be soft enough. [56:12] Right, you still need some kind of [56:14] special color tone. [56:15] Everything has to match up. Oh, I think [56:17] next time it should be like this: once [56:19] you arrive, you scan the Wi-Fi and [56:21] directly receive the photos taken. It's [56:23] just that there’s no differentiation. [56:26] To be a "Versailles" brag, you need to [56:28] have a distinction. [56:30] This shows that there is truly a need [56:32] for this, so... [56:33] Yeah, there must be a need. [56:36] So why "Versailles"? Why were these [56:39] three characters chosen? It's just that [56:42] by the time I knew what it meant, I [56:44] didn't think to ask about its origins [56:46] anymore. [56:47] It seems like initially, for instance, [56:49] there was a Weibo post, you know, you [56:51] could say...It seems a bit deliberate, [56:53] like someone was sighing about [56:55] something at Versailles, I've kind of [56:57] forgotten, but... [56:58] Of course, we can imagine it’s [57:00] because Versailles embodies the Baroque [57:03] style, which is quite flamboyant. In [57:05] mainland China, we generally refer to [57:08] it as "European style." [57:10] Hmm. " [57:11] European style" actually refers to the [57:14] Rococo style—the kind that is very [57:16] heavily decorated. [57:17] Probably something like that. [57:18] Definitely not, definitely not. It was [57:21] just a very, very accidental Weibo [57:23] incident. [57:23] So I’m saying, a lot of the time, [57:25] it’s about the power of words. I [57:28] really think we need to be vigilant. [57:30] Many words actually end up intensifying [57:32] anxiety. Do we really need a word like [57:35] that? There’s a principle called [57:37] Occam's Razor, right? The universe [57:40] prefers simplicity. If it can be [57:42] explained with one formula, you don't [57:44] need two; if it can be explained in one [57:47] sentence, you don't need two. But don't [57:49] you think that while some new words [57:51] today are good and can stand the test [57:53] of time, there are other words where [57:55] you look at them—they already had a [57:57] meaning, right? But then you stack [57:59] another meaning onto them, and after [58:01] they become popular, people are, in [58:04] turn, influenced by this linguistic [58:06] suggestion. [58:06] Discourse, perhaps. [58:08] Sometimes I have to be especially [58:10] vigilant in my profession, including [58:13] the internet. It creates words, and [58:15] these words guide and exacerbate things [58:18] . Is there "involution"? Perhaps there [58:21] is. But once it becomes a major issue, [58:23] you find yourself saying more and more, [58:24] "Oh, I'm stuck in involution."" [58:26] Involution" affects your choices. For [58:28] example, some people "lie flat." While [58:31] there are always some who do, I’ve [58:34] seen more young people working hard and [58:36] not lying flat. But when a trend like [58:39] this hits, it makes you question who [58:41] you are. So, I say you truly need an [58:44] independent personality, free thinking, [58:47] and a courageous soul. You are a free [58:50] soul. Sometimes I think, why let [58:52] yourself be guided by these internet [58:55] buzzwords? Why do you feel the need to [58:57] discuss them? You have your own [58:59] concerns. I want to make documentaries. [59:01] So I’ll make documentaries. Right? [59:04] Unmoved by any external force. I just [59:06] feel that some people are too easily [59:08] swayed by these terms. [59:09] I recently... [59:11] Perhaps due to the context, I saw a [59:14] host talking about "lying flat." They [59:17] said in that segment that it's okay to [59:19] be resigned to fate. But you cannot " [59:21] lie flat." That resignation—I saw it, [59:24] and I replied, "It's okay to' lie flat, [59:27] 'but you shouldn't resign yourself to [59:30] fate." Right? Compared to resignation, [59:33] "lying flat" is better. "Lying flat" is [59:35] physical, while resignation is [59:36] psychological, isn't it? How could one [59:38] resign oneself to fate? There’s [59:40] another term I find very confusing. It [59:42] has appeared very frequently lately; [59:44] some articles use this one term from [59:46] beginning to end. It's called "setting [59:48] the narrative." [59:49] Yes, yes, yes. [59:51] I’ve seen them label all sorts of [59:52] viewpoints as "setting the narrative" [59:54] from start to finish. After reading [59:57] them, I developed this doubt. I always [60:02] feel that by placing such emphasis on [60:04] the effectiveness of "setting the [60:06] narrative," aren't they being a bit [60:08] dismissive of the public's ability to [60:10] think independently? It’s as if they [60:13] think people are completely unaware of [60:15] what’s happening in the world. You [60:17] see, they'll say, "Even though this [60:18] statement is harmless, it’s' setting [60:20] the narrative, '" and so on and so [60:22] forth, right? You underestimate people. [60:24] You think just because you set a [60:25] narrative or a new phrase appears, [60:26] we’ll be swayed, but actually, we [60:28] become even more resolute. But I think [60:29] these things are all temporary. [60:31] Ultimately. Hmm. [60:33] The vast majority of people won't be so [60:35] easily led by a narrative, including us [60:37] in the media. [60:37] But the crux of the issue is that in [60:40] today’s society, the public's voice [60:42] seems much louder than before. [60:44] Much louder. [60:46] It can reach your side very quickly. [60:48] Hmm. [60:51] It can quickly appear as a huge [60:53] advertisement on a bus, or even enter [60:56] the elevator and shout at you every [60:58] single day. Telling you something is [61:05] really good, it's—it's permeating our [61:07] skin, it's just... [61:11] It makes you, um, it makes you feel [61:14] quite sad. And for an old person like [61:19] me, moving from traditional media to [61:22] internet media, I'm already quite old [61:24] and have to learn a new language, [61:27] otherwise I can't understand; later, of [61:29] course, I realized many things existed [61:32] before. So now I can better accept what [61:37] young people say, for example, " [61:40] consumption scenarios" or "track." [61:43] Actually, in the food and beverage [61:45] industry, there's also a lot of new [61:47] terminology. [61:48] Right, what we used to call "flavor" or [61:51] whatever has all changed. For instance, [61:54] "brand value." It's just using another [61:57] system to give it a new set of language [62:00] . [62:00] Re-labeling it. Renaming it. [62:03] Right, is this to help phase us out? [62:06] Us old folks don't understand. [62:08] I was recently asked by some young [62:11] friends, "Do you have any advice? Let's [62:13] chat." I said, "I have no advice for [62:16] young people; I'm a bit out of touch [62:18] myself." I said, "But, I can share some [62:20] of my own feelings." I said, "I want to [62:22] tell you a secret: those big buzzwords [62:25] have nothing to do with you." Those [62:27] things like anxiety, involution—I say [62:30] , for me, what is the antonym of [62:32] anxiety? It's "specifics." You say [62:35] you're anxious about something. For [62:37] example, someone says, "Oh, I'm worried [62:38] , I'm anxious about my parents' [62:40] education for me, or their [62:41] considerations for my future." Then I [62:43] say, "Give me something specific. You [62:45] say education makes you anxious, so [62:47] what exactly is it?" Are you talking [62:49] about getting into college? Which [62:51] college? Which major are you choosing? [62:53] If you want to choose this major, what [62:55] do you need to do for it? How do you [62:57] prepare yourself? Which schools have [62:59] you researched for this? Once you get [63:01] into specifics, you actually won't be [63:02] that anxious. Once you get specific, [63:04] you'll know if the methods and paths [63:06] work. That anxiety is a very illusory [63:08] emotion. Why do you throw yourself into [63:11] it? [63:11] Being uneasy about all sorts of unclear [63:14] , undefined issues—that is what [63:16] anxiety is. [63:17] You have to break through that fog. If [63:20] you define the specific path to take, [63:22] and when you step onto that specific [63:24] path and walk forward step by step, you [63:26] won't have this anxiety. [63:28] So, sometimes have time to talk more, [63:30] I'm anxious. [63:31] How are you anxious? [63:33] His anxiety is also a heart issue, but [63:35] look at Xiao Qing, I find him truly [63:38] dedicated. I think you really keep pace [63:40] with the times; every time a [63:42] documentary goes online, Xiao Qing has [63:45] to monitor the audience's reactions on [63:47] the web. [63:48] Minute-by-minute ratings. Uh, the [63:52] inflow rates, outflow rates, you have [63:54] to watch the completion rates, this new [63:57] system's metrics. Are there any [64:01] irrational reactions in the bullet [64:03] comments? As Dai Jinghua says, what [64:06] people fear most when streaming courses [64:08] online is that kind of irrational [64:10] reaction or similar things. Your [64:13] ability to handle stress must become a [64:16] bit stronger, but to achieve better [64:18] ratings, [64:19] Hmm. [64:22] Sometimes you change from the [64:24] traditional documentary style of "I [64:26] want to tell you something" to "I will [64:29] tell you what you want to know." [64:33] It's still what we call the relations [64:35] of production guiding the productive [64:37] forces. [64:38] It even gets to the point where they [64:40] might change the upcoming films based [64:43] on audience feedback. [64:44] Right, the pace, for instance, has to [64:47] be accelerated. [64:48] There’s no way around it. [64:50] So you see, changes have emerged today; [64:53] on one hand, the audience's power is [64:56] increasing, [64:57] This is very good, making them more [64:59] satisfied, [65:00] But there is another situation that I [65:03] feel is becoming niche. What do you [65:06] mean by niche? For example, I have no [65:09] requirements for Xiao Qing. I just want [65:14] to hear what he wants to say; it’s [65:16] the same with many teachers for me, I [65:18] want to know what you want to tell me, [65:20] not what you think I want to hear. It's [65:24] like some films by masters of cinema, [65:26] I truly don't have any feedback. I [65:29] really just want to see what they want [65:31] to film. You see, there is still such a [65:34] demand, but that demand seems to be [65:36] squeezed. This kind of mature, [65:38] professional audience. Of course, the [65:41] more such an audience there is, the [65:43] better. But they often won't be the [65:45] majority. [65:46] Right, there is a monster in this, [65:49] called Big Data. [65:51] Oh. [65:52] Big Data, exactly. [65:54] This is something our predecessors, the [65:56] generation of documentary filmmakers [65:59] before me, didn't have to face. [66:01] Hmm. [66:02] We have to face it now. Before [66:05] Discovery launched in 1987, people [66:08] didn't know documentaries could tell [66:11] stories with such suspense. Perhaps [66:15] even earlier than that, some of our [66:17] peers said it's hard to make films when [66:20] you spend every day just pondering what [66:22] the audience wants. [66:26] What are the facts, what is the truth? [66:29] What you should care about is the facts [66:32] , not what they imagine. In fact, since [66:35] 2000, things like White Planet, Blue [66:38] Planet, and the like have come out one [66:40] by one; even the BBC has started [66:43] telling stories. [66:44] Mm. [66:45] They have to make compromises, [66:47] otherwise no one will watch. Just like [66:49] the director mentioned, if you want to [66:51] hear what a certain teacher has to say, [66:53] there are paid options. [66:54] Ah. [66:55] You can take those courses, but if you [66:58] look back at paid courses—I don't [67:00] know if you've done this—we've [67:02] specifically made paid courses like [67:04] that, and the ones that sound good sell [67:06] the most. [67:07] Right, as long as they charge money, [67:10] you... [67:10] It essentially turns all knowledge [67:13] dissemination and every disseminator of [67:15] knowledge into a storyteller. Everyone [67:19] is a storyteller. [67:20] A master of stories. [67:22] It's all production relations [67:24] constraining productivity. [67:25] There's really no way around this. [67:27] Right? [67:28] To some extent, it seems quite good, [67:30] but I think some people worry that it's [67:33] like you're always trying to cater to [67:35] me. It feels a bit like...Eunuchs [67:37] trying to guess the emperor's will; the [67:40] audience is God, right? What do you [67:42] like? Whatever you like, we give you; [67:45] whatever you like, we give you. This [67:47] collusion is very pleasant. But, but if [67:50] this collusion continues...... [67:52] and keeps going on...... [67:54] to the point where this collusion [67:55] drives out all other choices, it [67:57] completely turns into a relationship of [67:59] mutual pleasing between the creator and [68:01] the receiver, rather than one side just [68:02] pleasing the other. Is it becoming [68:04] increasingly blissful? Or is it... [68:08] Uh, no, I actually think it's different [68:10] . It really is different. For the [68:13] documentaries we make, we also [68:15] categorize them. By the end of this [68:20] year at the latest, we want to film a [68:23] new documentary, perhaps for a very [68:25] small group of people—not something [68:28] mass-market, maybe something very niche [68:30] . Mm, the content will be kept [68:34] confidential for now. [68:36] You just told me. [68:38] Whoever wants to find me, whoever wants [68:40] to know the fee, pay me for the fee. [68:42] But why the mass appeal? Because what [68:47] we make are commercial documentaries; [68:50] they need to bring commercial value and [68:52] have more viewers. So, we strive to [68:56] ensure our narrative is truthful while [68:59] making sure the audience doesn't find [69:01] it off-putting or feel offended. [69:04] Mm. [69:06] We never tell people what is delicious; [69:09] what we tell them more is that what you [69:11] know is just...... [69:13] is the best. [69:15] Is the best? Why does that sound like [69:19] the tone of a scammer? No, it's just [69:24] that everything ordinary we eat today, [69:27] including the pan-fried buns Teacher Xu [69:30] mentioned, has an extraordinary history [69:32] . [69:35] That’s insightful for me, but it also [69:38] depends on who's talking. Even the [69:40] friends I pay for content don’t tell [69:42] stories as well as you do. No, no. [69:45] Right? [69:46] No, no, no, no. [69:47] But you mentioned big data; it’s [69:50] really about these keywords, these [69:52] trending online buzzwords. If an [69:54] article has them, it means more clicks [69:57] and more traffic, so everyone starts [69:59] clicking on these buzzwords—just look [70:02] at those headlines. And then it really [70:06] becomes a topic that everyone seems to [70:09] care about. So, how could I not pay [70:12] attention to it? Consequently, when I [70:15] see articles on my phone about these [70:17] topics—Chen Xiaoqing talking about " [70:19] involution," Xu Zidong talking about " [70:21] lying flat"—I take a look. Behind [70:24] that big data, there might be thousands [70:26] of engineers; I don't know if it's AI [70:28] or people. After collecting your [70:30] clicking habits, it pushes more of [70:32] these topics to you, you know? This [70:35] repeated process—it’s what you call [70:37] a feedback loop, like a loudspeaker. [70:39] Setting the narrative. [70:41] It just becomes overwhelmingly huge. I [70:44] feel like it’s reached the point [70:45] where it’s affecting how I review [70:47] program materials. I couldn't even [70:49] finish watching the recordings today, [70:51] but as soon as I look at my phone, [70:54] swipe, swipe, swipe...and then I think, [70:56] what did I actually do today? [70:58] Look, it's all vulgar content. [71:01] Not necessarily—they are all trending [71:04] topics, so to speak. [71:05] Hmm. [71:06] But in the end, I realize I’ve read [71:09] ten or twenty thousand words, and it's [71:12] nothing more than keywords like " [71:14] Versailles,""involution," and "lying [71:16] flat." I think this is something worth [71:19] our... [71:20] Small waves of words have converged [71:22] into a tsunami. [71:23] Yes, and you need to be careful of this [71:26] tsunami; it's beyond your personal [71:28] strength. [71:28] However, our current attitude toward [71:31] data should be that it's an auxiliary [71:33] system for us. [71:34] Hmm. [71:35] It cannot change our direction. We must [71:40] first know that in the process of going [71:43] from A to B, data is there to help us, [71:46] not to hinder us. [71:48] Have the product first, then develop [71:50] the sales strategy. [71:51] Don't let it control you. [71:53] Don't let it define you. [71:55] Exactly. In my own team, we call it " [71:58] standing in front of the data." [72:02] Hmm. [72:04] This approach is very correct; it can [72:06] provide us with a lot of information. [72:09] But, hey, never let it play you. Hmm. [72:12] It’s us using it, not them—not big [72:16] data using us. [72:18] This is making tools more human, rather [72:20] than making humans more like tools. [72:22] Oh, right, it’s basically a " [72:24] dimensional strike" against your [72:26] customers. It’s like I stand in front [72:28] of you and offer you something you [72:30] never even imagined, but—hey— [72:32] it’s something I’m willing to [72:34] accept. [72:34] You can see this kind of thing in Le [72:36] Bon's "The Crowd." Of course, I don't [72:40] necessarily agree with his views, but [72:43] he does argue that the masses never [72:45] care about the facts themselves; [72:49] they care about whether something fits [72:51] their own psychology and how [72:53] exaggerated it is. [72:55] Sometimes, when people are in a group, [72:57] they actually exhibit a certain [72:58] irrationality. [72:59] What he said was very inspiring to me, [73:01] as I'm about to teach a part of my [73:03] course. [73:04] Mm. So, I'm faced with a major question [73:07] : should you take into account [73:09] the audience's wishes? Some people in [73:14] the comments suggest that producers [73:17] should find out what people want to [73:19] hear and then adjust your content. When [73:23] adjusting content, there’s another [73:25] argument that says we do it for the [73:27] sake of enlightenment, so you need to [73:29] lower the bar. But I personally feel [73:31] that this isn't very respectful to the [73:34] public. It’s like saying, "I usually [73:36] drink fine wine, but since you wouldn't [73:39] understand it, I’ll give you [73:40] something else instead." That’s [73:42] really quite disrespectful. Yet, they [73:45] claim that if you teach it exactly as [73:47] you intended, there will be problems. [73:49] So now, I’m not sure what I should do [73:52] . [73:52] Well, let me tell you, Professor Xu, [73:55] the audience is diverse. I think it [73:56] will ultimately form a multi-layered [73:58] service. [73:59] Right, there's a bit of everything for [74:00] everyone. How you choose to tell your [74:02] story determines which layer you place [74:04] yourself in. Although I don't know much [74:06] about documentary production, I'm [74:07] starting to see a pattern in your [74:09] documentaries—it's as if you were all [74:11] taught by the same teacher. Take the [74:13] Terracotta Warriors, for example, right [74:15] ? The Terracotta Warriors—but you [74:17] always have to start with a ticket [74:19] inspector who’s been working there [74:21] for decades, and so on. That’s a [74:23] great way to shoot a documentary, but [74:25] once it becomes a formula, it starts to [74:27] feel repetitive. Or with Sanxingdui, it [74:29] always has to start with a local farmer [74:31] doing something completely unrelated, [74:33] like cooking or whatever, before [74:35] finally leading into the topic of [74:37] Sanxingdui. You know, when I watched it [74:39] , I really wanted to sincerely tell the [74:41] director: "If you're only making this [74:43] for an audience like me, there's no [74:45] need for that." Take Sanxingdui or the [74:47] Terracotta Warriors: how they were made [74:49] , the history behind them, their [74:51] internal structure, and current [74:53] scholarly debates—I want the pure, [74:55] unfiltered facts. [74:56] There must be documentaries like that [74:58] too. Exactly, so I go looking for those [75:01] . They do exist, and I find them a [75:05] blessing for viewers, but I have to say [75:08] , the reality is cruel. [75:10] It is. [75:12] Because it means these kinds of films [75:14] are becoming rarer; there's no money to [75:16] support making those kinds of pure, [75:19] hard-fact-oriented productions. [75:21] Right, there's no funding. Who would [75:24] invest in a film that just lays it all [75:26] out? And besides, [75:28] it always starts with an old farmer [75:31] digging up an artifact in a field. [75:33] No, it's more like, you see, [75:35] it's drama, so it needs plot twists. [75:38] Right, exactly. [75:39] It's about the information density and [75:41] how many times the scene needs to [75:43] change within a certain timeframe. [75:45] None of that is absolute. It’s not [75:48] absolute. In fact, if you’re noticing [75:50] that, it means the director isn’t [75:52] quite mature enough yet; if they were [75:54] truly formulaic, [75:55] you wouldn't even notice it. [75:56] I would be hooked. [75:57] Ah, yes. [75:59] It's because they made it natural. [76:00] Right. [76:01] No, you want the truth, you want the [76:02] reality, but most people want something [76:04] else to watch first. [76:05] For me, it’s just like reading a book [76:06] ; I need to acquire that specific [76:08] knowledge. [76:09] You need to know the answer. [76:11] Yeah. [76:12] What most other people want, what they [76:15] hope to get, is [76:18] the process of arriving at that answer. [76:21] I see. [76:22] It’s what we call a story; more [76:24] viewers might accept something if [76:26] it’s wrapped in a story. [76:27] That falls into the other category of [76:29] films I like to watch, where the story [76:31] isn't just an embellishment, [76:33] it's not just a garnish or a trick to [76:35] mask the knowledge; it is the substance [76:38] itself. [76:40] He’s right, it’s more like an [76:42] ornament, though you can’t rule out [76:44] the effort to make my program [76:46] accessible to more people. For instance [76:54] , an American colleague of mine told me [76:57] a story about a major archaeological [76:59] program on Maya culture that used hosts [77:02] , kind of like the show "Finding the [77:04] World." [77:09] Right, what kind of host should they [77:12] choose? [77:15] Since it was a commercial documentary [77:17] production company, they spent the [77:19] money to bring three hosts to the site. [77:27] One was a globally recognized expert in [77:30] archaeology. Another was a female [77:35] student who had just graduated from [77:37] university. Their articulation is [77:41] relatively sharp, and then there’s [77:44] another one—a traditional television [77:46] host. They both went to recite almost [77:51] the same passage, and then we played it [77:53] back for everyone to score. So, who [77:57] ended up becoming the host? I used to [78:01] find it strange, but now that I say it, [78:04] it must have been that young, beautiful [78:07] , recently graduated archaeology [78:09] student. She opened her innocent eyes [78:12] wide; she was full of...she wasn't one [78:15] of the "all-knowing" ones. Let me tell [78:18] you, what he was talking about is [78:20] another type, which is "I know [78:22] everything," yet he was still full of [78:25] passion. [78:25] Right. [78:26] This girl, she was full of the unknown. [78:29] This film of his is very successful. [78:32] Hey, that’s well put. [78:34] It makes it easy for the audience to [78:35] get involved. [78:36] Exactly, that’s the person I identify [78:38] with. [78:39] But what was I talking about? It must [78:41] be the fascinating things within Maya [78:44] culture. Wonders. Right, it’s like [78:46] reporting the news; we also like [78:48] watching beautiful women report the [78:50] news, right? That—that is very [78:52] healthy. Don’t think Xiao Qing is [78:55] just a foodie; he is very experienced. [78:57] I think Xiao Qing... [78:59] Yeah, so I sometimes check in on him, [79:02] because we are of a similar age, so I [79:04] often care about how his life is going, [79:07] right? This feeling is sometimes quite [79:10] complicated, don't you think? You see, [79:12] we peers all care about each other, [79:15] this... [79:16] Envious of others, seeing whether they [79:18] are doing well or not, [79:19] Right, so look, Xiao Qing, a beautiful [79:21] woman recently interviewed you, is that [79:24] right? And I watched it, watched it, [79:26] watched it, and I just remembered one Q [79:28] &A. He shared many great thoughts, but [79:31] I only remembered one. This woman asked [79:33] , "Have you achieved financial freedom? [79:36] " Xiao Qing said, "Where? I'm still [79:38] living in a 100-square-meter apartment, [79:40] I must be lying." [79:41] I'm completely fine. [79:42] The key isn't how many 100-square-meter [79:43] apartments there are. [79:44] Just one. [79:45] This beauty asked well, hmm. [79:47] Hey. [79:48] Just one. [79:49] Really? [79:50] For real. [79:51] No kidding. I really am like that. [79:53] He only has one under his name. [79:55] Versailles, they call this kind of [79:57] thing "Versailles" now. [79:58] Just one 100-square-meter place, I know [80:01] . [80:01] Enough to live in. [80:02] Right, exactly, even Elon Musk lives in [80:04] something smaller than yours now. [80:06] Right, I know, I know. [80:08] Hmm, so you are both cut from the same [80:09] cloth, aren't you? [80:10] Well, he has net assets and wants to do [80:12] things; I don't even have net assets, [80:14] so I'm on a higher level than him. Hey, [80:16] what is "financial freedom"? We poor [80:18] folks have never even heard of this [80:20] concept. What is the standard for it? [80:23] To be honest, when he asked me the [80:25] other day, I didn't know either. I mean [80:27] , if you don't spend much money, [80:29] you’d have been free long ago. [80:31] Professor, could you explain this, [80:33] being a literature professor and all? [80:35] I have no idea. [80:37] I’ve heard people mention it, but I [80:38] don't know what the standard is. [80:40] You guys are putting on an act; are you [80:42] trying to pass the pressure on to me? [80:43] No. [80:44] Yes, the only thing I remember is this [80:47] term; it didn't exist when I was a kid. [80:49] The only thing I remember is the sheer [80:52] euphoria I felt when I first heard this [80:54] term years ago. I thought, "This term [80:57] is great, it’s exactly what I’m [80:59] looking for—financial freedom." I [81:01] just thought it was a wonderful phrase. [81:04] But putting them together is a bit… [81:06] No, they have to be put together. If [81:08] you don't put them together, I'm not [81:10] that interested. I feel like...how did [81:12] this concept of "financial" even come [81:14] about? Well, anyway, I have a friend [81:16] who always tells me, "Why don't you [81:18] look into those kinds of groups or [81:20] organizations?" He’s always [81:21] recommending I look at something called [81:23] "early retirement." [81:24] Hmm. [81:25] It’s like there’s a special [81:26] international organization for it, or [81:28] rather, there’s an international term [81:29] for it. He put these English letters [81:31] together—I forgot which ones—and [81:32] told me I needed to pay attention to [81:34] this stuff. I said, "I...think...I’m [81:36] still young, so I haven't really [81:37] thought about it." He said, "The point [81:39] is, if you don't think about this now, [81:40] you’ll have to work your whole life; [81:42] you’ll still be working at retirement [81:44] age." I said, "Oh, really?" I said I [81:47] hadn't thought about it, and what he [81:48] said broke me out in a cold sweat. Then [81:50] he told me I needed to save money, do [81:52] this and that, and when to retire. As [81:54] it turned out, my friend got fired by [81:55] his company a few days later. [81:57] But he said it wasn't too bad, as they [81:59] gave him a large sum of money, and he [82:00] said he was free. Ah. [82:02] Wow, what a great company. [82:05] Regarding financial freedom, are you [82:07] not troubled by a lack of money? [82:08] Actually, I’m someone who doesn't [82:10] really have any...I heard a theory [82:12] about you, saying why you can't throw [82:15] yourself into the business world, just [82:17] that... [82:18] You started wanting to film some, how [82:20] should I put it, documentaries that [82:22] people would be willing to pay for. [82:25] When did you get that idea? Was it when [82:27] your child went to study abroad? [82:30] Uh, and then you found it to be very [82:32] strenuous. [82:33] Hmm, tuition and living expenses. [82:37] Yeah, so I left a position I once loved [82:41] . [82:43] Oh, comfortable, [82:46] just went to focus on making shows, hm. [82:51] Hey, did Netflix buy this documentary [82:54] you're filming now? [82:55] Yes. [82:56] It's so popular. [82:58] Netflix just bought it, I only earned [83:01] the production fee. [83:03] Netflix is the investor. [83:06] Oh, the investor, then they must share [83:08] a lot with you. [83:09] We didn't get any money. That doesn't [83:15] make sense, because there's no... [83:17] How can you make a successful film that [83:19] sells well, and the filmmaker not earn [83:21] more? [83:22] You have to make an investment [83:23] beforehand. I'm just someone who earns [83:26] a salary. Oh, I see, now I understand [83:29] his situation. Mm. [83:31] Hey, Teacher Xu is the best at [83:33] calculating, typical Shanghainese. Tell [83:35] us about your thoughts on financial [83:37] freedom, I haven't thought about it. [83:40] But listening to you, listening to what [83:43] he said, I'm inspired, it's roughly [83:45] that when you retire, until the end of [83:48] your life, you won't be in need, you'll [83:50] basically have enough to use. [83:52] That's roughly the idea, right? Look, [83:57] an economist who came on our show once [83:59] said. He said, he and his wife, and [84:04] even wrote a letter to their daughter, [84:07] saying the child shouldn't come back, [84:09] right? Meaning, parents won't rely on [84:13] you in the future, he said, I bought a [84:16] bunch of pension insurance. Ah. [84:21] This ensures that we, as an old couple, [84:23] won't need our children's care when [84:25] we're old, and he said the remaining [84:27] money will maintain my current [84:29] lifestyle. For the next few decades [84:33] that I can see, it shouldn't be a [84:35] problem. Does this count as a kind of [84:38] freedom? No worries. That should count [84:41] as freedom, but I think financial [84:43] freedom might have some levels, [84:46] financial freedom and financial freedom [84:48] might be different. Yes, yes, yes.