窦文涛与学者破除八小时睡眠论 称职场考勤与过度思虑加剧失眠

窦文涛与学者破除八小时睡眠论 称职场考勤与过度思虑加剧失眠 失眠的根源并非生理时长不足，而是现代考勤规训引发的紧迫感与白天压抑能量在夜间的反扑，放下强迫睡眠执念即可打破焦虑恶性循环。 节目围绕现代人的睡眠困境与作息哲学展开，深入破除了必须睡满八小时的传统迷思，指出绝大多数失眠本质上是对失眠本身的过度焦虑。嘉宾们探讨了打卡考勤与体制化职场对身体节奏的规训，并从脑科学角度阐释了睡眠作为大脑“清空缓存”的关键机理。结合俾斯麦的失眠公案、弗洛伊德精神分析及马斯洛理论，众人剖析了梦境如何承载未被宣泄的攻击性、情感创伤与心理防卫，最终倡导放下对失眠的灾难化预期，在接纳生命节律与向内探索中重获精神平静。 颠覆“八小时睡眠”教条：医学对睡眠障碍的诊断关键在于白天机能受损与主观痛苦感，而非睡眠时长；多数失眠本质上源于次日打卡压力以及“对失眠本身的焦虑”。 (2:35) 睡眠是大脑生化“清缓存”过程：脑电图实验显示失眠患者普遍高估入睡时间半小时、少估睡眠一小时；深度睡眠剥夺会导致脑内代谢垃圾堆积，直接引发日间认知迟钝与情绪失控。 (22:00) 弗洛伊德攻击性能量假说：攻击性即核心生命力，白天若因恐惧或内疚过度压抑自我表达，未释放的能量会在夜间迫使大脑超负荷运转，诱发多梦与失眠代偿。 (52:00) 睡眠与清醒的因果反转：失眠者常误以为必须先睡好才能过好白天，但生理与心理机制表明，唯有白天充分消耗体能与释放精力，夜晚才能自然迎来深层安眠。 (71:46)

[0:00] 白天活得很精彩，晚上死得很安详 [0:00] 许子东: 用深更半夜的时间来做事，我不跟你争 [5:32] 阿里安娜·赫芬顿: Sleep your way to the top [27:14] 王蒙: 你，你就是太灵了。你得钝一点，你得慢一点。 [28:44] 王蒙: 你睡不着？你就躺在床上这么想：你其实已经睡着了，你懂吗？你以为你没睡着，那不过是你在做梦。 [28:44] 梦里明明有六趣，觉后空空无大千 [31:18] 梁文道: 不是你要不要去睡，是你不懂得让自己很舒服地就说：好，我现在去睡了，就去睡了。很多时候睡不着，就是你心散，你不能专注。像我们学佛的人讲‘正念’，就是说我心定，我喝茶就喝茶。 [37:04] 陶渊明: 甚念伤吾生，正宜委运去。纵浪大化中，不喜亦不惧。应尽便须尽，无复独多虑。 [46:37] 武志红: 你睡吧，你睡，我看着你。 [60:08] 全德国唯一拥有私生活的，只有睡着的人 [77:48] 李煜: 梦里不知身是客

[0:00] To sleep with such spiritual energy, [0:02] those around me—I don't think there [0:04] are more than five people—their sleep [0:07] quality is extreme; they live their [0:09] lives every day as if they're enjoying [0:11] it, living fully. So for them, they [0:13] live brilliantly during the day and can [0:16] die peacefully at night. [0:17] That's right, I wake up at 3:30 in the [0:19] morning. [0:20] Yeah. [0:21] That time is all mine. Wow, at that [0:23] hour, no one calls you, no one texts [0:24] you, there's nothing going on. I don't [0:26] even turn on my computer. [0:27] I completely avoid all electronics, [0:30] except for the lights. Whether you're [0:32] reading or doing anything else, you [0:33] feel very at peace, but it doesn't work [0:35] when I'm on a business trip. Right, I [0:37] recently read a book written by a [0:38] Japanese person, a doctor who [0:40] specializes in liver cancer or [0:41] something. The reason I read that book [0:43] —I rarely buy these self-help books [0:45] —is because its first sentence [0:47] grabbed me. It said, "My name is [0:49] so-and-so, a doctor in Japan; I go to [0:51] bed at nine and wake up at three." I [0:53] thought, isn't that just me? [0:55] Oh, he said you shouldn't wake up too [0:57] early, because from midnight to three [0:59] o'clock, your liver needs to rest. [1:01] Right, after three, he said that's when [1:03] you don't have to sleep anymore. Hey, [1:05] you can't, so from three or four [1:06] o'clock until morning, say eight or [1:08] nine o'clock when everyone else wakes [1:09] up, that time in between is all yours. [1:11] Ah, yes. [1:13] What about Professor Xu? [1:14] Professor Xu is always watching ball [1:16] games. [1:16] That's right, the Champions League [1:18] matches are at 2:45 AM. My schedule is [1:20] exactly the opposite of his. [1:21] Yeah. [1:22] I go to sleep after three o'clock. [1:24] Yeah. [1:25] Basically, I fall asleep after three. [1:27] If there's nothing special, I can sleep [1:29] until nine or ten. If I have things to [1:31] do, I can't, but I don't sleep [1:33] continuously. Yeah. [1:34] In between, I'll get up and post on [1:36] Weibo, and our little fans will say, " [1:39] You're still not asleep? Have you not [1:41] slept yet, or have you already woken up [1:43] ?" And so on. [1:45] You don't get up just to check the [1:46] comments, right? [1:47] My, no, my key principle is—I forgot [1:51] who, maybe Liang Xihua, our former Dean [1:54] of Lingnan, wrote an essay. [1:57] It's called "Not Competing with Others. [1:59] " Yeah. [2:00] What he meant was that Hong Kong is so [2:03] expensive. [2:04] Yeah. [2:04] This place is so expensive, so they [2:07] hide in the New Territories. [2:08] I won't go to Central; that’s my way [2:10] of not competing with you for the most [2:12] expensive people and the most expensive [2:14] places. Second, I won’t compete with [2:17] you for time, either. You guys are busy [2:20] from 8 or 9 a.m. to 6 or 9 p.m., making [2:23] such a racket. I use the middle of the [2:27] night. The middle of the night is the [2:29] best time to get work done, so that’s [2:31] how I do it; I don’t compete with you [2:33] , I use European time. [2:35] Honestly, I’m quite envious of you [2:37] all; no matter what, you seem to be [2:39] able to fall asleep whenever you want [2:42] to. That’s shameless; in my eyes, [2:44] that’s just shameless. I have trouble [2:47] waking up, I’m never unable to fall [2:49] asleep. Right, you’re just mentally [2:51] healthy; you don’t know what it’s [2:53] like to be unable to sleep. I’ve been [2:55] struggling with sleep for many years, [2:58] but I’ve reached a state now where [3:00] I’ve solved this problem. Look, [3:02] I’ve tried many methods, starting [3:04] with the most basic one—counting [3:06] sheep—but even after counting ten [3:07] thousand, I still couldn't sleep. [3:09] And then? [3:10] I don’t even know. Later, the doctor [3:13] suggested a glass of red wine, just one [3:14] glass; but later, didn't it become a [3:16] whole bottle? [3:16] Right, I ended up breaking down, as [3:18] I’ve told you before, which is to say [3:20] ... [3:20] The problem is, I think that’s a road [3:22] of no return, you know? If you drink [3:24] one glass to fall asleep today, [3:25] tomorrow you’ll need two; it easily [3:26] becomes an addiction. [3:27] For a whole year, it actually started [3:30] affecting my work; I was drinking a [3:32] bottle every single night. [3:34] Hmm. [3:35] Each time, I would just pass out. [3:38] Forcing yourself into that state is [3:40] very unhealthy. [3:42] So, I quit, and after quitting, I feel [3:44] I’ve found the right path this year. [3:47] Hmm. [3:48] And what is this path I’ve found? [3:50] It’s that I’ve discovered why [3:51] insomnia is such a serious problem in [3:53] modern society. Because you have to go [3:55] to work. [3:56] Hmm. [3:57] This is a very important point; the [3:58] reason you think you have insomnia is [4:00] because you have to get up for work at [4:02] 8 a.m. Do many people realize this? [4:03] I can't sleep well at night whenever I [4:05] have a class the next morning. Exactly, [4:07] if you don't have a rigid schedule, if [4:09] you work freelance or have flexible [4:11] hours. [4:11] In the end, does it really matter if [4:13] you fall asleep or not? [4:15] I mean, you can’t keep your eyes open [4:16] forever, right? [4:17] Hmm. [4:18] There’s a new definition for sleep [4:20] now, Wen-Dao really has the knowledge, [4:22] you know? What is the professional [4:23] definition of a sleep problem now? The [4:25] idea that humans must sleep for eight [4:27] hours is completely unscientific. Hmm. [4:30] So, what is the so-called sleep [4:32] disorder, or pathological insomnia, [4:35] actually defined as? causing you [4:37] distress because of a lack of sleep, [4:40] and it directly affects your work and [4:42] life the next day. If you feel it has [4:44] affected you, disrupted your work and [4:46] life the next day, this is an important [4:48] diagnostic criterion. That is to say, [4:50] when it comes to sleep, there is no [4:52] one-size-fits-all approach. Right. [4:55] They say Napoleon slept four hours. No [4:58] matter how many hours you sleep, or [5:00] when you sleep, as long as you feel you [5:02] can work normally and you are [5:03] clear-headed the next day—well, often [5:05] insomnia is actually about the anxiety [5:07] regarding insomnia. [5:09] Mm. [5:10] It's this anxiety of yours. [5:11] There are many notions, like "Why can't [5:13] I sleep for eight hours?" [5:14] If I don't sleep for eight hours, I get [5:16] very anxious. When I stop caring about [5:18] it, I might wake up for a bit at night, [5:19] wake up and read a book, then get [5:21] sleepy again and fall back asleep. By [5:23] the next day, I find that insomnia [5:26] seems to be teasing you. [5:27] If you ignore it, [5:29] you actually fall asleep. What does [5:32] this mean? [5:32] Let me tell you something that might [5:34] make you more aware. You know the [5:36] female founder of The Huffington Post, [5:38] right? Didn't she resign last year? She [5:41] changed her path; she resigned and [5:43] wrote a book called*The Sleep [5:45] Revolution*. She's not a reporter [5:47] anymore; she's turned to focusing on [5:49] personal wellness, the kind of thing [5:51] Jack Ma invested in. [5:52] She wrote this*The Sleep Revolution*, [5:54] saying that most people suffer from [5:56] sleep deprivation—that our sleep is [5:58] being deprived. She feels that four [6:00] hours is still not quite enough. [6:02] She gave an example of one day having [6:03] dinner with a very successful [6:05] businessman, a very young person. That [6:07] person bragged, "Look, I only slept [6:08] four hours the night before last, and I [6:10] have so much energy today." She said [6:12] she was thinking to herself, "If you [6:14] had slept five hours, this dinner would [6:15] have been much more interesting." She [6:17] felt that you still hadn't slept well. [6:19] She even diagnosed Trump. [6:22] She said Trump is a classic case of [6:24] sleep deprivation because Trump claims [6:26] he only sleeps three or four hours and [6:28] is manic; she says that's classic sleep [6:30] deprivation. And so, she proposed a [6:32] slogan, saying [6:33] This year, I keep feeling like I'm [6:35] getting angry easily. I thought it was [6:37] menopause, but you're saying it's [6:38] heading in that direction. [6:39] Right, you just haven't slept well. [6:41] You're the host, the host has the final [6:43] say. He says many young people in [6:45] universities just don't get enough [6:47] sleep. He tells them not to worry about [6:49] what job they'll find after graduation, [6:51] but to learn to sleep well first; that [6:53] is the most important thing. He [6:54] suggests that kindergartens should [6:56] delay their opening times, rather than [6:58] having everyone go to school at eight [6:59] in the morning. Then he came up with a [7:01] slogan. Once, he was with a group of [7:04] successful women and said, "You are all [7:06] entrepreneurs and leaders, yet you are [7:08] all sleep-deprived." He said he wanted [7:10] to propose a slogan, "Sleep your way to [7:13] the top." You know, that phrase has a [7:15] double meaning, right? He told these [7:17] women they should "sleep their way to [7:18] the top," but he meant the literal [7:20] meaning of sleep. [7:21] He meant actual sleep, not sleeping [7:22] with people to get to the top. [7:24] He meant that if you sleep well, you [7:25] will definitely make it to the top. [7:27] Because I am also someone who has long [7:28] been unable to sleep for six hours; [7:30] usually it's four or five hours, and [7:31] it's been like that for decades. [7:33] To go travel, right? Introducing dreams [7:36] . [7:36] What about the time? Well, I just sleep [7:38] for four or five hours. I'm about the [7:41] same as you, because I've also heard [7:43] people talk about this approach. Some [7:46] of my friends say they go to sleep [7:48] before nine in the evening and wake up [7:50] at five the next morning. The life you [7:53] people describe is very rosy. [7:56] Oh, I wake up when it's just getting [7:58] light. And my friend says, "I'm on the [8:00] treadmill every day, watching the news [8:02] and reading." [8:03] Then I run for half an hour; it's a [8:05] great workout. Take a shower and start [8:07] working. [8:08] Everyone is still asleep. [8:10] Right, and while everyone hasn't even [8:11] started working yet—he still writes [8:13] columns— " [8:14] I have already finished my column for [8:16] the morning by 6 o'clock.""Then, by 9 [8:18] o'clock, before everyone else starts [8:20] work, I've already handled my company's [8:21] affairs during those three hours when I [8:23] have the most energy." [8:24] Hey, what should I do for the rest of [8:26] the day? How about going back to have [8:28] breakfast with colleagues? Sounds [8:30] wonderful, doesn't it? I tried doing [8:33] that for a while, but I realized it [8:35] didn't work. No matter what I did, I [8:37] still ended up in the situation you [8:39] described, and I just can't adapt to [8:41] jet lag. Jet lag doesn't exist for me; [8:43] even if I suddenly flew to North [8:44] America today, logically, my clock [8:46] should be flipped, right? Right, 12 [8:48] hours difference. But when I get there, [8:50] I am still... [8:51] Still on their three o'clock time. [8:53] Right, and later, I finally discovered [8:54] a book that could clear things up for [8:56] us. [8:56] Hmm. [8:57] I found a book that explains it. [8:59] There’s no way around it; this is a [9:01] physiological state, and this state is [9:02] genetically determined. [9:03] Being a night owl is just natural. [9:06] Wendao and I are comrades. [9:08] Yes, we are comrades, there’s nothing [9:10] we can do about it. [9:11] My sweetest sleep is that kind of [9:13] jet-lagged sleep, you know, for [9:15] instance, when flying to London, I [9:18] usually get sleepy by 4 p.m., then I [9:20] force myself to stay up until dinner. [9:24] You know the type, I’ll be sitting [9:27] there talking to Wendao, even if it’s [9:29] about something very important, he can [9:31] tell I’m just dying to get home and [9:34] sleep for a dozen hours. [9:37] But that’s so sad, if you think about [9:39] it. You either drink to sleep or you [9:42] need jet lag to sleep. It’s like, "If [9:44] you don't endure the bitter cold, how [9:46] can the plum blossoms smell so sweet?" [9:48] I don't admire your talent at all. You [9:50] all have one thing in common: being [9:52] able to fall asleep whenever you want. [9:54] In my mind, these people are [9:56] extraordinary. Most people are like [9:58] that. We journalists, you know, I can [9:59] fall asleep the moment I get in a car, [10:01] I can sleep anywhere. [10:02] This, I tell you, is a sign of extreme [10:04] mental health. Let me ask you, who is [10:06] mentally healthy? Eric Tsang is [10:08] mentally healthy. Once, Eric Tsang and [10:10] Jackie Chan came to our show. I heard [10:13] Jackie say that when there was that [10:15] flood in mainland China, Eric, who was [10:17] the chairman of the Artistes [10:19] Association, mobilized the Hong Kong [10:21] entertainers. He said, "Let's raise [10:23] money as performers." Eric sat at the [10:26] podium, called a meeting, and said, " [10:29] Everyone, share your ideas. Yijun, you [10:31] start." When Yijun said, "Eric, this is [10:34] ...""Mm," he nodded calmly. Wendao said [10:36] he just nodded calmly. After a while, [10:39] he stopped talking. He had fallen [10:41] asleep. [10:41] He fell asleep, Eric did. [10:43] That is mental health. We had a [10:46] professor here who would do exactly [10:48] this during meetings, just like that. [10:50] He knew everything. [10:52] Ah. [10:53] If you asked him later about the [10:54] resolutions or who was nominated, he [10:56] knew everything immediately. But... [10:58] He would still be snoring away. [11:00] Oh, I see, that’s a medical condition [11:03] . It’s that kind of...I have a friend [11:05] who is the same, you’d always think [11:07] he’s dozing off, but he’s actually [11:09] not. [11:09] Well, he is actually falling asleep a [11:11] little bit. I’m trying to think what [11:13] that condition is called. I used to [11:14] think that when he was asleep, he [11:15] wouldn't miss anything important. But [11:17] hearing you all talk, I’ve realized [11:19] that several important choices in my [11:20] life were actually related to sleep. I [11:22] just thought of this suddenly; I’d [11:24] never considered it before. [11:25] Does that mean whether or not to sleep [11:27] with someone, or rather, the whole [11:28] journey of sleeping? [11:29] It’s not a question of who you sleep [11:31] with. [11:32] He didn’t mean that; every one of us, [11:34] whether on top or below... [11:35] All of humanity sleeps, that is correct [11:38] . [11:38] Please, go ahead. One instance was when [11:41] I was determined about what to do in [11:43] the future, inspired by Jack London's [11:46] novels, where he wrote that he only [11:48] slept three hours a day when writing. [11:50] So, for a period when I was young and [11:53] highly motivated, I really tried [11:55] sleeping only three hours a day. I [11:57] thought that was the way to become a [11:59] genius, though of course, I couldn't [12:01] keep it up for long. Second, when I [12:03] graduated from graduate school, I had a [12:05] few choices: working as a reporter for [12:07] Wenhui Bao, an editor at a literary [12:08] press—President Ding Jingtao invited [12:10] me there to eventually join the [12:12] literary scene—or staying at the [12:14] university as a teaching assistant. [12:16] I chose the third one for a very simple [12:18] reason: I could sleep in. [12:20] It was really decided just like that. [12:22] Liang Yuchun had an essay called "A [12:24] Moment in a Spring Morning is Worth a [12:25] Thousand Gold," he... [12:26] Spring Night. It’s not Spring Night, [12:29] it’s "Spring Morning," just a spring [12:31] morning moment is worth a thousand gold [12:33] . He was promoting the benefits of [12:35] sleeping in. [12:36] Hmm. [12:37] He said what he enjoyed most was waking [12:39] up......and not getting out of bed. [12:42] Then you just let your mind wander; he [12:44] called it an artistic way of life, [12:46] saying that the things you do during [12:48] the day are otherwise very mechanical. [12:50] Because after you’ve slept in, your [12:52] afternoon becomes very productive. Then [12:55] the work becomes meaningful; he said if [12:58] you finish things early, like you all [13:00] mentioned, it’s so boring. He wrote a [13:03] whole essay specifically on this. [13:06] So what you’re saying is a bit like [13:08] the well-fed not knowing the hunger of [13:09] the starving. For most young people [13:11] today, the problem is that even an [13:13] alarm clock can't wake a sleeping heart [13:14] , right? An alarm clock can't wake a [13:17] sleeping heart. Do you think it's [13:19] because they look at electronic devices [13:21] too much before bed? Sometimes it's a [13:23] huge interference, a real impact, that [13:25] blue light—it’s now scientifically [13:27] proven that looking at these things [13:30] right before bed makes it hard to sleep [13:32] . Don't look at your phone. [13:34] It doesn’t directly affect your [13:35] melatonin, directly stimulating your [13:37] melatonin this... [13:38] What do you mean by melatonin? [13:39] Melatonin is something specifically [13:41] meant to help you sleep, you haven't [13:42] taken that medicine, right? [13:43] It’s what controls your biological [13:44] clock. Once, because I was working the [13:46] night shift, I took a pill. They said [13:48] there were two types, one with a larger [13:49] dose and one with a smaller dose. I [13:51] chose the smaller one, but who knew [13:52] what I actually took? I slept for 13 [13:54] hours. That night, my colleagues on the [13:57] night shift all tried calling me, but I [13:58] didn't hear a thing. I woke up to [14:00] countless missed calls, but that was [14:02] the best sleep of my life—13 hours, [14:04] can you imagine? [14:05] That melatonin, let me tell you, it's [14:07] completely useless for me. I could take [14:09] a whole bottle and it wouldn't do [14:10] anything, so I think it's all...Fake, I [14:12] think it's all fake. I have, however, [14:14] taken sleeping pills before. I’ve [14:16] taken sleeping pills, and like I told [14:18] you, regarding why sleep is so [14:19] important for a person, there’s an [14:21] explanation that says your brain— [14:23] don't you feel like your brain gets all [14:25] hot and stuffy? I always remember that, [14:27] during my childhood, the back of my [14:29] head felt cool and refreshed. You see, [14:31] what Buddhists call "cooling," like [14:33] applying menthol ointment. [14:34] Feet should be warm, head should be [14:36] cool. Right, and then, you see, taking [14:38] these sleeping pills, in daily life I [14:40] don’t feel anything, it's fine. [14:42] I’ve even heard that actors like Ge [14:44] You take sleeping pills, and you see, [14:46] it proves their performances, their [14:48] acting the next day isn't affected. But [14:50] , I’ve found that for hosting, which [14:53] requires quick responses, the effect is [14:55] very noticeable. I’d rather suffer [14:57] from insomnia than take sleeping pills [14:59] before recording the next day, because [15:01] the way I feel when I take them is... [15:03] It's like this: if I haven't taken [15:05] sleeping pills, you say one thing, [15:07] right? I've got three responses ready [15:09] for you. If I’ve taken the pills, you [15:11] say three things, and I can't even [15:13] react to one. That's the speed, that [15:15] difference is very obvious. [15:17] One difference between when I was [15:20] younger and now is that my main writing [15:22] time is currently between 12:00 and [15:24] 3:00; that’s when my efficiency is [15:26] highest. [15:27] But when I was in graduate school, my [15:29] highest efficiency was in the morning, [15:32] after waking up and lounging in bed, [15:34] just staring at the cracks in the [15:36] ceiling. I’d have all the articles I [15:38] needed to write for the day planned out [15:40] ; once I got up, I just had to write [15:42] them. It’s just that in the morning, [15:43] I feel like life is about waking up [15:45] early and going to work. [15:46] Oh, I wouldn't dare say how much money [15:48] I earn. [15:49] Actually, this is just a side point. [15:51] You've voiced the true feelings of [15:53] today's youth, but as for the issue... [15:55] Office hours should be adjusted. As a [15:57] social suggestion, I think as long as [15:59] they aren't allowed to day-trade stocks [16:01] or anything, we should make working [16:03] hours flexible. [16:04] Let some people start at 12 PM and [16:06] finish at 8 PM; traffic issues could be [16:09] solved. Right? Noise could be reduced, [16:11] lifestyles would change significantly, [16:14] the city's congestion would improve, [16:16] and restaurant sales would go up. So, [16:18] as a mentor to the youth, how do you [16:21] solve this problem? Well, look, we can [16:23] see it everywhere online. I don't think [16:26] there's really a way around it. We even [16:28] talked about this in the first season [16:30] of our show—how to deal with not [16:32] wanting to work. Many young people, [16:34] including those born in the 90s, say [16:36] they don't want to work, but then Chen [16:38] Qing put it well. [16:39] He said it's not that they don't want [16:40] to work, it's that they don't want to " [16:42] go to work"(at an office). Ah, right. [16:44] I really notice people around me spend [16:46] so much time at work. [16:47] They hate the office routine. They like [16:50] the work itself; for example, writing [16:52] what you want to write—isn't that [16:54] work too? [16:54] But I find that so many young people [16:56] dislike the "going to work" part. Do [16:58] you think that... [16:59] The so-called dislike for "going to [17:01] work" could be more precisely described [17:04] as disliking life within an organized [17:06] office environment. [17:07] It's disliking the interpersonal [17:09] dynamics within that organizational [17:10] environment. That kind of structured, [17:12] organizational schedule. [17:14] Right, that's what they dislike. Just [17:16] think about it—I've seen young people [17:19] nowadays starting small companies [17:20] together, startups, or whatever. Don't [17:23] they have those shared office spaces? I [17:25] think they actually love working there. [17:27] Why is that? [17:28] Because... [17:29] They are doing their own thing. [17:31] Those young partners, they are equals. [17:33] And they are a group. Working like that [17:36] , you feel like it's like playing every [17:39] day, very meaningful. At the UN, they [17:41] have some people in HR; I heard them [17:43] say that when they recruit now, they [17:45] find it very different from before [17:47] regarding this "going to work" thing. [17:49] They call them the "Millennial [17:50] generation," right? Yes. [17:52] For this Millennial generation, they [17:54] completely don't care about office [17:56] hours. To them, it's just a framework [17:58] they cannot accept. Also, they don't [18:00] care if they lose this job today; they [18:02] can switch immediately. They don't have [18:04] that sense of loyalty. Actually, the [18:06] idea of a nine-to-five is about a sense [18:08] of loyalty I owe to the job, the boss, [18:10] or the work itself. It’s like, you [18:12] paid for my time, so all these hours [18:15] belong to you. It’s basically selling [18:17] your life, a concept they are [18:19] particularly against. To be realistic, [18:21] if some companies could let people [18:23] start at 12 and finish at 8, without [18:25] affecting their overall business—well [18:28] , let’s look at the reality, many [18:30] people live outside the Fifth Ring Road [18:32] . Waiting for the bus in the morning, [18:34] parents are there helping them save a [18:37] spot. [18:37] In freezing weather, for a bus that [18:39] arrives after seven, parents stand [18:42] there at five or six in the morning [18:44] just to let their kids sleep an extra [18:46] hour. [18:47] An extra hour of sleep, then the kids [18:49] rush to the spots their parents saved [18:51] and head into the city, only to spend [18:53] the day at work doing who knows what. [18:55] But the clock-in rules are just like [18:58] that. [18:58] Right, right. I feel like there are [19:01] companies now where I wouldn't work [19:02] even if you paid me. It's that " [19:04] militarized" management style, and the [19:06] bosses are even proud of it—the [19:07] clocking in. [19:08] Oh, and some people are really treated [19:10] unfairly. [19:11] Being just a minute or two late— [19:13] Yes, if you’re a minute or two late, [19:14] your bonus gets docked. Some people [19:16] even wake up in the middle of the night [19:18] realizing they forgot to clock in. [19:19] They’ll run back to the office in [19:21] their pajamas just to clock in. [19:23] The people sitting there are all just [19:25] stealing time. Once they arrive and [19:27] clock in, they just browse the internet [19:30] or do other things. Why make a society [19:32] like this? It’s just the malaise of [19:35] modernity. [19:36] So many people are starting their own [19:37] businesses; starting a business means [19:38] you don’t have to clock in. They want [19:40] freedom, they want freedom. That makes [19:42] me think of companies like [19:43] Zuckerberg’s. You know what else I [19:45] think of? The CCTV headquarters [19:47] building—do you know who designed it? [19:50] Rem Koolhaas designed it. I’ve worked [19:52] there before, and I found it quite [19:54] interesting. It represents two [19:56] different philosophies. Actually, some [19:58] colleagues at CCTV told me it’s not [20:01] very practical. Why? There are hardly [20:04] any offices. The building has these [20:07] huge, wide corridors, and only the [20:10] center area has space for actual [20:13] enclosed offices. The rest is all just [20:17] empty space, right? Later on— [20:20] The production team I worked with said [20:21] that for Chinese companies, you need to [20:23] be able to gather in a room for small [20:25] meetings without others knowing, and [20:27] they found the rooms were just too [20:28] small. Look at his concept, it's about [20:33] how the young people of today or the [20:35] future work, especially in media; they [20:38] just sit anywhere, on the carpet or in [20:40] a lounge-like area, with a laptop in [20:43] their laps, you see. [20:47] See, he might be envisioning that kind [20:50] of office environment, and so, the [20:52] pressure of working nowadays, including [20:55] the pressure of the job itself, and the [20:57] competition in China right now... [21:00] We used to think China was quite [21:02] inefficient, but I really feel now that [21:04] , at least in the big cities like [21:05] Beijing, Shanghai, and Guangzhou where [21:07] I live, many companies are actually [21:09] more efficient than those in the West, [21:11] so efficient that it's a bit... [21:12] It’s almost unbearable. You remember [21:15] that delivery guy I mentioned? Oh my, [21:18] just so I would... [21:19] It was very pathetic. ... [21:21] give him a "like," he could actually [21:22] cry. It’s reached that level. So you [21:25] can say the pressure is enough to keep [21:27] you up at night. [21:28] And I feel like just not being able to [21:30] sleep would be fine. It’s when the [21:31] pressure is too much that you start [21:33] developing all sorts of problems. [21:35] Don't you think so? A lot of people are [21:37] in a bad mood, easily angered. [21:39] Does that have anything to do with [21:41] insomnia? [21:41] I think it certainly does. Don't you [21:43] find Chinese people to be very [21:45] irritable? Generally speaking, for [21:47] those of us who travel abroad often, [21:48] you rarely hear about people in other [21:50] countries fighting in airports just [21:51] because a flight is delayed. It’s [21:53] just that in China, people are always [21:54] fighting, arguing at the slightest [21:56] provocation; it’s really strange. [21:58] Maybe that includes my own explosive [22:00] temper. Anyway, about sleep, I still [22:02] have a fundamental question I haven't [22:04] figured out yet, because I heard a [22:07] saying, I know someone who says don't [22:09] sleep too much. You can sleep forever [22:12] after you pass away. [22:13] Right, and how much time do you really [22:16] have to live, anyway? You’ll have [22:19] plenty of time to sleep later, so you [22:21] just need the minimum; that’s one [22:23] school of thought. The other is what [22:26] many netizens send me all day, saying [22:28] don't burn the midnight oil, it's bad [22:30] for your health, so ensure you get [22:32] enough sleep for the sake of your body; [22:34] only by guaranteeing sleep can you work [22:37] well during your other hours. [22:38] These are two different views on sleep. [22:41] Which one do you think makes more sense [22:43] ? I still can't decide. The former is [22:46] definitely unscientific and illogical, [22:48] because I’ve read scientific papers, [22:50] and now we know why we feel refreshed [22:52] after a good night's sleep. It’s [22:54] because while you sleep, something is [22:56] happening in your brain, similar to [22:58] clearing the cache on a computer, right [23:00] . [23:00] Look, there's a lot of junk data in [23:01] your computer, and over time, it slows [23:03] down, so you need a cleanup master to [23:05] get rid of that excess stuff. [23:07] But I actually dream, that cleanup [23:09] process. Is also undergoing that same [23:11] procedure. As long as you fall asleep, [23:14] the biochemical reactions in your brain [23:16] are actually removing that so-called [23:18] junk data, and then it makes your brain [23:20] feel like it's been washed, doesn't it? [23:22] So, you can't just not sleep, otherwise [23:24] you'll become like one of those angry [23:25] people on the street. Why do people say [23:27] that pregnancy makes a woman "dull for [23:29] three years"? Is it just because they [23:31] don't sleep well? Do you understand? [23:33] That "dullness" is because you aren't [23:34] sleeping well, because after you give [23:35] birth you have to take care of the [23:36] child and so on, right? It's just very [23:38] fragmented sleep. I have a very deep [23:40] feeling about this. If I sleep very [23:42] little the night before, or have to [23:44] catch a flight for a business trip, [23:46] when we used to do shows, I would find [23:47] that I couldn't remember people's names [23:49] or places. I felt like my brain was [23:51] searching for something, but it just [23:53] wouldn't load. [23:54] It's just like when you're online; the [23:55] internet won't load, and it just can't [23:56] bring it up. Another point is, when you [23:59] Are struggling to keep going. [24:00] Yes, yes, and also, when you're eating, [24:03] maybe that's when you should eat [24:04] something sweet. [24:05] Hmm. [24:06] Because only sugar can penetrate into [24:08] the brain. [24:09] So maybe eating something sweet at that [24:11] time can be a little helpful. [24:12] Oh, you've really answered my question. [24:14] In the past, I was always afraid of [24:16] offending women, so I didn't dare say [24:18] it, but I really have had that feeling [24:20] that pregnancy makes you "dull for [24:22] three years." I mean, I've been...I've [24:24] been "dull" for years in a row. [24:26] Right, why? [24:27] Women can say this, but men cannot. Is [24:29] that so? Later on, Zha Jianying [24:32] explained it to me once, why we get " [24:34] dull." I can't lie, I've seen many [24:37] women who, once they get pregnant, seem [24:40] a bit distracted when talking to me, [24:42] like their eyes can't focus. Even, I [24:45] tell you, even in the first year after [24:48] giving birth. [24:50] When they come back to work, I've [24:52] noticed this female host is reacting [24:54] slower than before, in a kind of "dull" [24:57] state. [24:58] Getting up at night to change diapers. [25:00] Right, then I realized, even without [25:03] the burden of pregnancy, just the first [25:06] year after having a child. [25:07] Mothers can't get any sleep, none at [25:09] all, because they still have to feed [25:10] the baby in the middle of the night, [25:12] right? [25:12] Right, and the baby cries, doesn't it? [25:15] Since the baby can't sleep through the [25:16] night at that stage, of course you [25:17] can't either. It’s true, and [25:19] there’s also Professor Zha [25:20] Jianying’s explanation—you can’t [25:22] really blame us, and here’s why. Just [25:25] think, she said, "Wentao, if you spent [25:26] all day with a three-year-old and [25:28] weren't allowed to interact with the [25:29] adult world, just spending all day with [25:31] a three-year-old..." [25:32] Usually even a one-year-old. [25:34] Or someone with the intelligence of a [25:36] three-year-old, and you have to [25:38] socialize with them... [25:39] If you spent every day with them for a [25:41] year, wouldn't you start to become just [25:43] like them? She said that’s how a [25:46] mother is; at night she has to read [25:48] these simple-minded—well, not [25:50] simple-minded, but low-level—baby [25:53] talk to them. [25:54] Right, talking baby talk, about a big [25:57] white rabbit and a big bad wolf. She [25:59] said if I lived like that for a year... [26:02] You're saying... [26:03] If she were on a show talking about " [26:05] look at the big white rabbit," that [26:07] would be disastrous. That’s why women [26:09] ...we shouldn't just have equality, we [26:11] should have a society that respects [26:13] women; I really think so. [26:15] Men should take turns looking after the [26:17] kids too, if you have a child; many [26:19] countries have that now. [26:20] The big bad wolf story is something men [26:22] should tell too, yes, yes, yes. [26:23] But you have to realize that within the [26:24] story of the big bad wolf, a child’s [26:26] wisdom can be sparked. I went hiking [26:27] with my daughter once, and I asked her, [26:29] "What sounds do you hear?" I was [26:30] expecting her to say the sound of the [26:32] wind, the water, or the birds, but she [26:33] replied, "I hear the sound of the [26:34] clouds." Oh my, [26:36] Oh my, I just thought, you’re [26:38] learning something from that too, [26:39] aren’t you? [26:40] She has literary genes, [26:42] So you see, I’ve noticed that people [26:44] like Wendao, or a good friend of mine [26:46] who’s like the Yuanzhou school, will [26:47] say, "Hey, you guys chat for a bit, [26:49] I’m going to take a nap," and [26:50] they’ll lie down and fall asleep [26:52] instantly. I have friends who can nap [26:54] for 15 minutes, saying, "Let’s head [26:56] out in 15 minutes, you guys talk first, [26:57] I’m a bit sleepy," and within 15 [26:59] minutes they’re snoring. I’ve found [27:01] that these people often have a [27:02] childlike heart. Hmm, [27:04] Even if they’re fifty or sixty years [27:06] old, you see, they’re just like [27:07] children. [27:07] Kids are incredible. [27:09] Yes, but these short naps are actually [27:11] very effective, yes. [27:12] During the day, right, like when I [27:14] finish a class, if there's a half-hour [27:16] break between two classes, I can fall [27:19] asleep right in my office. [27:20] Then the students for the second class [27:23] knock on the door, and I feel refreshed [27:25] . [27:25] People always say you should sleep [27:27] before important agreements. [27:28] Before important agreements. [27:30] Exactly. Before making major decisions [27:32] or signing important deals, take a nap. [27:34] Even if you only sleep for five minutes [27:36] , you'll have much more energy for the [27:38] next ten hours. [27:39] You see, that's why I say you are all [27:41] people of great wisdom. There's also an [27:44] elder we all respect, Mr. Wang Meng; he [27:46] also makes sure to take a nap, right? [27:48] And I asked him, "How are you able to [27:50] fall asleep?" He said that sometimes he [27:52] can't sleep either. I’ve found that [27:55] Mr. Wang Meng feels like a life mentor [27:57] to me, often pointing out some of my [27:59] issues. [27:59] Lao-Zhuang philosophy. Yeah, he really [28:02] likes to point out my problems. He said [28:04] , "You, you're just too sharp." He said [28:07] , "You should be a bit duller, you [28:08] should be a bit slower." It's like they [28:10] say, "Cleverness may be a hindrance to [28:12] cleverness." A lot of the time, your [28:14] neurasthenia is simply because your [28:16] nerves are too sensitive. Isn't there a [28:18] way of living called "the power of [28:20] being dull"? [28:21] There is a blessing in being dull. [28:23] Sometimes, being quick-witted isn't [28:25] necessarily a blessing. [28:26] It’s just like Mr. Wang Meng says: [28:28] you can afford to be a bit slower. [28:30] Don't always react so quickly; don't be [28:32] so sharp. [28:33] Ancient treatises talk about "simple [28:35] and honest" rather than "clever and [28:37] tricky." [28:38] But one needs the simplicity that comes [28:40] from great wisdom. [28:41] Yes, the simplicity that reveals itself [28:43] after you’ve already been sharp. [28:44] Exactly, that kind of simplicity. Don't [28:47] always try to show off how quick and [28:48] clever you are. In the end, people like [28:50] that just miss the beat. Then he shared [28:52] what I consider a true life philosophy. [28:54] Once, when we were doing a show [28:55] together, he said he was going home for [28:57] a nap. I said, "My schedule is so [28:59] fragmented, I can't sleep at all. I [29:01] really can't." Then Mr. Wang said [29:04] something that left me in awe of him. [29:06] He asked, "You can't sleep?""You just [29:11] lie in bed and think like this: you've [29:13] actually already fallen asleep, you [29:16] know?""You think you haven't slept, but [29:19] that's just you dreaming." He said that [29:22] sometimes, [29:24] That is classic Zhuangzi. [29:26] He said that sometimes when he can't [29:28] sleep and feels like he has insomnia, [29:29] he just lies in bed and thinks exactly [29:31] that. [29:31] If you think you're still awake, it [29:33] actually proves you're in such a deep [29:35] sleep that you're dreaming. This is [29:37] truly... [29:38] The butterfly dreaming of you. Exactly, [29:41] let's take it a step further—life [29:44] itself is just a big dream. You've [29:47] never really woken up, so how can you [29:50] be "insomniac"? You're just dreaming [29:52] that you have insomnia. [29:54] After hearing that, did you fall asleep [29:55] or did you stay awake? [29:57] After hearing him say that, did you [29:58] fall asleep or did you stay awake? [29:59] After hearing it, I felt enlightened, [30:01] and I immediately lay down for a nap. I [30:03] just...I just [30:04] fell asleep. [30:06] Oh, I actually feel like... [30:07] I'm even more anxious now. It reminds [30:10] me of a Buddhist saying: "In the dream, [30:13] the six realms are clearly there, but [30:15] upon waking, the great universe is [30:18] empty." [30:19] Meaning, in a dream, things like people [30:22] , ghosts, and animals all seem so real, [30:24] but when you wake up, you realize there [30:27] was nothing there at all. It's just... [30:31] Looking at the end of life this way is [30:33] actually quite positive. Life is like a [30:36] dream, and the key point is waking up [30:38] —once you wake up, there's nothing [30:40] left to worry about. [30:41] But to circle back, I've increasingly [30:44] realized that whether it's insomnia or [30:47] depression, while you should definitely [30:49] seek professional medical advice, my [30:52] amateur take is that much of it stems [30:54] from a fear of anxiety itself. [30:56] Hmm. [30:57] It's just like I always say: no matter [31:00] what you encounter, do what you have to [31:03] do, but don't be anxious about it. What [31:05] keeps you awake is that constant [31:07] anxiety. [31:08] You have to get up early? If I can't [31:10] sleep in the middle of the night, I [31:11] just get up and read. I'll just read [31:13] the books I planned for the next day [31:14] right then, you know? Read until you [31:15] can't take it anymore and you'll fall [31:16] asleep. Then there's nothing to fear. [31:18] But what about your students who [31:20] graduate and have to be at work by [31:22] eight o'clock? [31:22] That's why I say it's a problem. I [31:25] think society should adjust work hours. [31:28] We need to manage our own mental state, [31:30] but I think society needs to adjust too [31:33] —isn't that like "Folding Beijing"? I [31:36] think even though it's a sci-fi novel, [31:38] the idea of folding parts of society in [31:40] terms of time is a good one. So, Wendao [31:42] , how do you suggest we solve this [31:44] problem? Most people still have to work [31:47] nine to five, after all. [31:48] I think, using our Buddhist perspective [31:51] , the problem of insomnia—in my view [31:54] —is just that your focus is never [31:57] truly on the act of sleeping. [31:59] You're trying too hard to focus on [32:02] sleeping. [32:02] It's not about trying to sleep; it's [32:04] about not being able to simply and [32:05] comfortably let yourself say, "Okay, [32:07] I'm going to sleep now," and just do it [32:09] . Most of the time, insomnia is caused [32:11] by having a wandering mind and being [32:13] unable to focus. For someone who [32:15] studies Buddhism, we speak of " [32:16] mindfulness." It means my mind is [32:18] settled; if I am drinking tea, I am [32:21] just drinking tea. I do whatever I am [32:23] doing. So, I think the reason many [32:25] people suffer from insomnia today is [32:27] the same reason many people I encounter [32:29] have trouble learning Buddhism or [32:30] meditation. The reason is the same: [32:33] it's hard for most people's minds to [32:35] settle today. It’s related to what [32:37] you said about using phones, but not [32:40] because of the blue light. I’m okay, [32:42] because I don't really use social media [32:45] . If you are always opening WeChat, [32:47] constantly scrolling to see your feed [32:49] or what people are sending you, you [32:52] remain in a long-term state of waiting [32:54] for or sending messages. You are not in [32:57] control, and your mind won't settle [32:59] easily. [33:00] I also have a technical trick: reading [33:02] some rather difficult books. Just read [33:06] until you get tired, then that’s the [33:09] time to sleep. [33:10] Right, and you can also read page 101. [33:14] That also makes it easy to fall asleep. [33:16] True, but I think for Wendao, he is [33:19] like this. You see, why can he fall [33:21] asleep when he should also have a lot [33:23] of pressure? [33:24] I noticed that sometimes what he says [33:26] is different from me. I am someone who [33:29] feels regret. [33:29] He doesn't feel regret. For example, if [33:32] he says, "I decide to go left," [33:34] even if he finds out later it was wrong [33:36] , he just keeps going with his mistake. [33:38] That’s the kind of person he is. [33:40] There is no right or wrong; once you've [33:42] gone that way, it's your own path, [33:44] isn't it? [33:44] Maybe it's because there aren't enough [33:46] things to do. Sometimes I feel that [33:47] when you are busy enough, you won't [33:49] feel regret. Actually, when you have so [33:50] many things to think about, or you've [33:52] experienced too many setbacks, you stop [33:53] dwelling on them. You just let it be, [33:55] because there is always another task [33:56] ahead. [33:56] Besides, regret is useless. He is right [33:59] —regret is useless. Sleeping for a [34:01] long time does not necessarily mean the [34:02] quality of sleep is good. [34:03] Then what about someone like him who [34:05] can't even guarantee enough sleeping [34:06] time? [34:07] Hey, let me tell you, for example, I [34:09] tend to sweat. [34:10] Mm. [34:11] Sweating, for one, is because of heat, [34:14] right? [34:15] A lot of times, people who sweat easily [34:17] are having a stress response. [34:18] Mm. [34:20] A stress response is something we [34:21] inherited from animals. [34:22] Mm. [34:23] It's meant to cool your body down, so [34:25] it will trigger sweating. [34:27] Yes, look, I am a chronic insomniac. [34:30] But just now, Professor Wu was [34:31] concerned and asked if I had been [34:33] sleeping well. My answer is that my [34:35] sleep is still not good, but I have [34:38] solved this problem, um. [34:39] Let me tell you how I solved it. First [34:45] of all, the famous psychologist Maslow [34:48] once said that, to some extent, he [34:50] hoped that everyone in our society [34:52] could be a psychologist. [34:59] He said that, of course, for the most [35:01] severe end of the spectrum, you need to [35:03] find experts, such as specialized [35:05] doctors like Professor Wu or sleep [35:08] specialists for treatment. He said that [35:12] for a large part of the population on [35:14] this spectrum, if sometimes [35:16] we as friends can understand some [35:19] psychology, you might inadvertently [35:21] save someone, or you might [35:23] inadvertently solve many of their [35:25] psychological problems, enabling them. [35:27] Actually, this kind of mutual care and [35:29] communication in our society, based on [35:32] some common psychological knowledge, um [35:34] , [35:34] is too rare. [35:35] This is [35:37] So you mean your sleep ability was [35:39] restored through self-healing? [35:40] Right, that's true. For instance, [35:43] although I haven't exactly "cured" it [35:45] —well, it's still not fully cured—I [35:48] have studied a lot of books on sleep. [35:51] I’ll bring up one point: for people [35:53] like me—I dare not speak for those [35:55] with severe sleep disorders—many [35:57] people need to pay attention to their [36:00] stress response, which is related to [36:02] many things. This stress response dates [36:06] back to when we were primitive humans; [36:08] if a tree swayed, we immediately had to [36:11] react, secreting various adrenaline [36:13] hormones to either fight or flee. [36:16] But these are often false alarms. [36:18] It's an overreaction, being jumpy at [36:21] every shadow. However, back in [36:22] primitive society, when facing a threat [36:24] like a saber-toothed tiger, [36:26] we would rather overreact. [36:28] Exactly, exactly. [36:29] So, this response mechanism was [36:31] installed in us. [36:32] That’s why you wonder why you’re [36:34] always so reactive, or why your [36:36] endocrine system changes immediately [36:38] when a colleague says something, [36:40] because even though it’s not a tiger, [36:42] um, [36:44] in modern society, many are paper [36:46] tigers; it's not a matter of life or [36:48] death. There’s no life-or-death [36:49] threat, nothing physical, but your body [36:51] comes from ancient times. [36:53] From your entire response system, [36:55] the survival instinct is still there. [36:57] So, regarding the stress response, as [37:00] many sleep specialists say, [37:02] you look at a lot of news on your phone [37:04] right before bed, right? Wars in [37:05] distant parts of the world, conflicts [37:07] with colleagues, or wondering if your [37:09] boss's comment today means layoffs— [37:11] all these things inevitably trigger [37:13] your stress response. How could you [37:15] possibly sleep well under such [37:17] circumstances, right? [37:18] So, he says this is one issue, and [37:20] another is that many things are matters [37:22] of perception. Therefore, to change [37:24] this problem, you must also change your [37:27] perception. [37:27] Change your perception of sleep. [37:30] For example, [37:31] Take Teacher Wen, for instance; he [37:33] spends the time he should be sleeping [37:35] reading books about sleep. [37:37] Actually, let me tell you, there’s a [37:40] line from a Tao Yuanming poem that [37:42] saved me, or at least it’s one of the [37:45] prescriptions: "Excessive thinking [37:47] harms our life."" [37:50] Follow the natural flow of fate."" [37:53] Drifting in the great transformation, [37:55] neither happy nor afraid; when it’s [37:57] time to go, just go; why have more [37:58] worries?" What does this mean? It means [38:01] that excessive thinking harms our life. [38:05] You’re overthinking these problems [38:08] today, right? "Follow the natural flow [38:11] of fate," just let it be. Right, there [38:13] are many things you can't control. " [38:15] Drifting in the great transformation, [38:17] neither happy nor afraid"—to put it [38:18] plainly, if you aren't even afraid of [38:20] death, are you still afraid of sleeping [38:22] ? "When it’s time to go, just go." [38:24] Sooner or later we will all die, why [38:26] worry so much? [38:27] Of course, I’m still afraid of death, [38:29] right? But I can choose not to be [38:31] afraid of insomnia, you see? It’s [38:33] just... [38:34] What’s so great about insomnia? [38:36] It’s just about that... [38:37] If you can't sleep, [38:38] then don't be afraid, don't worry... [38:40] If you can't sleep, just stay in bed; [38:41] if you still can't sleep, then get up. [38:43] Come on, I don't believe you can go [38:45] three days without sleeping. You know, [38:47] I’m not just making this up to [38:49] deceive you; this is based on [38:51] professional books about sleep. Many of [38:53] our understandings about insomnia... [38:55] Brother Six, look at me taking notes, [38:57] using the time I should be sleeping to [38:59] read books about sleep—perfectionism, [39:01] pure perfectionism! No, I do this [39:03] because I don't want people to say I'm [39:05] fooling them; these are all based on [39:07] professional sleep research. Many of [39:09] your perceptions about insomnia are [39:12] flawed. For example, no one has ever [39:14] died from insomnia. Some people say [39:17] insomnia is fatal, but there is [39:18] currently no scientific consensus that [39:21] insomnia directly causes serious health [39:23] problems. [39:24] It is not a fatal condition. [39:26] Right, exactly. But those with insomnia [39:28] often blame their daytime performance [39:30] on their sleep. Yeah. [39:31] They think, "Oh, I didn't sleep well [39:33] last night, so today's show definitely [39:34] won't go well." Actually, from my own [39:36] experience... [39:37] If I have insomnia, I assume I'll be in [39:39] bad form, but sometimes even when I [39:41] sleep well, my hosting isn't [39:42] necessarily great. [39:43] Mm. [39:44] That’s just incidental, but I know of [39:46] one thing that is positively correlated [39:48] . [39:48] But do I know for sure what affects my [39:51] hosting state? Taking sleeping pills. [39:53] If you use sleeping pills, your hosting [39:56] ... [39:56] Yes, if I use—if I took a sleeping [39:58] pill yesterday, for example, I wouldn't [40:00] notice any change in my intelligence [40:02] during daily life, but in a setting [40:04] like this, I feel like my brain is [40:06] locked up. [40:06] That’s just my personal feeling; I [40:08] wouldn’t dare make a medical claim. [40:10] Does it really impair cognitive [40:12] performance the next day? [40:13] The thing is, I’m a psychologist, I [40:15] don’t study medicine, so I don’t [40:17] know much about drugs, but there was a [40:18] friend of mine... [40:19] I do study medicine. Right, right, a [40:22] friend of mine, he used sleeping pills [40:24] quite a bit. Because when I’m talking [40:26] to people, if my focus is intense, I [40:28] can also sense certain things. Later he [40:30] told me that when he used them, he felt [40:32] like his dreams were chopped into [40:33] fragments. For example, dreams that [40:35] were supposed to be continuous...... [40:37] were interrupted, so my interpretation, [40:40] based on that experience with my friend [40:42] , was that when you use them, the [40:43] medication might play a significant [40:45] role in blocking your mental activity. [40:48] Oh. [40:49] Back when I was in Hong Kong, I used to [40:51] take the early shift, right? [40:52] Right. [40:54] Uh, I had to start work at 4:30 or 5:00 [40:57] in the morning because we had a live [40:59] broadcast at 7:00. Uh, and it was live, [41:02] and since there was no script, you had [41:05] to speak entirely off the cuff. I [41:08] remember I didn't have insomnia before, [41:11] but then you get nervous, and you feel [41:13] like the work is more important than [41:16] your need for sleep. How did I get [41:19] through it? I tried it a few times, [41:21] very similar to what you said—I [41:23] basically didn't sleep at all one day, [41:25] then I went in and found it was [41:27] actually fine, because when you're in [41:29] that live broadcast state, your [41:30] adrenaline kicks in and you get quite [41:32] excited. But if, for example, I was [41:34] just reading a script, I might be [41:36] extremely sleepy, because I wouldn't [41:38] feel that same deep stimulation. [41:40] You would feel sleepy. [41:42] Yes. [41:43] But it doesn't necessarily mean you [41:44] can't work normally. Right, and [41:45] especially for me, I livestream without [41:47] a script. I must, like, really engage [41:49] my brain, and I feel excited when I do. [41:52] After two or three times, I overcame [41:54] this mental block and thought, "Huh? [41:56] Not sleeping doesn't seem to make a big [41:58] difference." And then, I was actually [42:00] able to fall asleep. Because at this [42:03] point, our thinking hits a snag; we [42:05] assume we need a perfect state to do [42:08] perfect work. [42:09] We think about how we need to prepare, [42:11] but in reality, you see, actually— [42:13] Insomnia is not the most terrible thing [42:15] in the world. [42:16] Yes, exactly. [42:17] Because your work state the next day [42:20] probably doesn't require a 99-point [42:22] level of mental preparation; 60 points [42:24] might be enough. Another important [42:26] point is your state at the moment; for [42:28] example, if your consciousness feels [42:30] scattered or unfocused, it doesn't [42:32] really matter. You have an infinite [42:34] subconscious, and your subconscious is [42:36] the accumulation of your past life and [42:38] professional work, so your "dreaming" [42:40] is a very authentic reflection of that. [42:42] Although we jokingly say, "Wow, even [42:44] this kind of babbling works." But in [42:46] reality, this "babbling" is backed by [42:48] your past; you are drawing from your [42:50] past. [42:50] It's not determined by, say, the 12 [42:53] hours from last night, but by your past [42:56] 12 years or even longer. So at that [42:58] moment, you find your mind is less [43:01] anxious. When you can relax, connect [43:03] with your body and your subconscious, [43:06] and let go, you find things from the [43:08] past surging up. As a result, you find [43:10] that even if you didn't sleep well and [43:12] can't remember your notes—meaning [43:14] your conscious mind can't keep up—you [43:17] have so much stored inside that when [43:19] you need to use it, you can. [43:20] So it sounds like it’s just a matter [43:22] of acceptance and coexistence, right? [43:24] Whether it's insomnia or various other [43:27] issues. But this acceptance and [43:29] coexistence must be based on actual [43:32] facts. For instance, many of our [43:35] troubles stem from our cognition. [43:37] You are thinking about this matter the [43:40] wrong way. So, because you thought [43:42] about it wrongly and acted wrongly, you [43:44] feel troubled and pained. For example, [43:46] regarding this sleep case, I've looked [43:48] at thousands of Western sleep studies, [43:50] and they are all written in this book. [43:53] Can I take this, look at me, look at [43:55] you, what does this sixth point say? [43:57] The sixth point is, how do I know [43:59] things will definitely turn out that [44:01] way? It's asking, are you taking this [44:03] matter too seriously? [44:05] Hmm. [44:06] There was a study of 122 people with [44:09] insomnia; they were assessed using EEG [44:11] equipment, and it was found that these [44:14] 122 people, they estimated—as [44:16] insomniacs—They estimated their time [44:19] to fall asleep to be half an hour [44:21] longer than their actual time; that is [44:24] to say, you actually fell asleep in [44:26] half an hour, [44:29] but on the questionnaire the next day, [44:30] you always say, "It took me an hour, it [44:33] took an hour for me to fall asleep," [44:34] and then your total sleep time, your [44:36] total sleep time for the whole night, [44:38] was underestimated by an hour. These [44:41] 122 insomniacs, it means you think you [44:44] haven't slept, but actually you're [44:46] sleeping soundly, yet you don't realize [44:49] you've slept for that long. This is a [44:51] cognitive issue. So, there's a world [44:54] record—a world record holder, I don't [44:57] know if he was a magician or someone [44:59] else—this guy didn't sleep for 11 [45:02] consecutive days. He didn't sleep for [45:04] 11 straight days, he said he didn't [45:06] experience hallucinations during that [45:08] time, and in the end, he just slept for [45:10] 15 hours and returned to normal. So, [45:12] what is the lesson this teaches us? [45:15] You don't need to make it up. No, [45:17] you're really smart, meaning there's no [45:19] need to compensate. It means if you [45:21] think you haven't slept for two days, [45:23] you don't need to feel anxious, [45:24] thinking, "I have to make up for it, I [45:26] have to catch up." Secondly, if you [45:28] think you haven't slept for several [45:30] weeks, then either you have a negative [45:33] perception of sleep, or you've broken a [45:35] world record. [45:36] Just like saying you didn't dream last [45:38] night, when in fact you did. [45:40] Right, you just don't remember it. [45:42] But there is a situation, such a case [45:44] is still very serious. Even if he [45:46] adjusts his cognition, and he actually [45:48] has slept for some time, it is still a [45:50] very serious state, hmm. [45:52] It still needs improvement. Actually, [45:54] when I talk about your story, I don't [45:56] know if the story I'm about to tell [45:58] will have some impact on you. There is [46:00] a very famous treatment story in [46:02] history. [46:02] No, I'm connecting you with a very [46:04] great figure. Yes, yes, the one who [46:06] traveled a thousand miles—not a [46:08] thousand miles—he traveled a thousand [46:10] miles here just to find this patient of [46:11] mine; I am also treating...look, who is [46:13] this? This is the German Iron [46:15] Chancellor, Bismarck. [46:16] Ah, Bismarck. [46:17] Bismarck had a serious problem: he [46:19] couldn't sleep. As it turned out, a [46:21] quack doctor cured him. Why was he [46:24] called a quack? Because at that time, [46:26] the academic establishment didn't [46:28] recognize him. The methods he used were [46:30] very unconventional; for instance, he [46:31] didn't use medicine. So, how did he do [46:34] it? It actually aligns quite well with [46:37] later psychological theories regarding [46:39] sleep. Here is how this man treated [46:42] Bismarck. When Bismarck was about to [46:44] sleep, the man would put on a uniform [46:46] or a specific set of clothes, sit by [46:48] Bismarck's bedside, and stay silent— [46:51] no talking, just watching over him as [46:53] he slept. Once Bismarck fell asleep, he [46:55] would leave. But when Bismarck woke up [46:58] the next morning, the man would be [46:59] there again, wearing the same outfit, [47:01] sitting in the same position by his bed [47:04] . As soon as Bismarck woke up, he would [47:06] see the same person he had seen before [47:08] falling asleep the night before. After [47:10] a few nights of this, Bismarck was able [47:13] to sleep. [47:14] Later, the man left, and while the [47:16] story with Bismarck didn't end there, I [47:18] need to provide an explanation. It [47:20] actually touches on two psychological [47:22] theories: one regarding a sense of [47:25] security, and the other regarding [47:27] aggression. For instance, with that [47:29] dream you mentioned, I suspect it might [47:31] still be linked to your aggression. [47:33] Why do you always think I have [47:34] aggression? [47:35] Because of the dreams you described [47:37] earlier, like being hunted or shooting [47:39] a gun. [47:39] I feel like I'm a coward. I really feel [47:41] like I'm the one being attacked, I tell [47:43] you. [47:43] What you reveal is entirely the [47:44] opposite side of yourself. [47:45] Right, didn't you say that yourself [47:47] right from the start? What do you think [47:49] you look like? [47:49] Or perhaps I am just your theory. [47:52] No, no, let's put that aside for a [47:54] moment. Regarding the part about the [47:55] sense of security: look, when we sleep, [47:57] there is one thing we must do, which is [47:59] to let our minds rest, right? [48:01] If your mind is too active, you won't [48:03] be able to fall asleep. But why can't [48:05] some people let their minds rest, like [48:07] Bismarck couldn't? Or why was it that [48:10] after this quack doctor appeared by his [48:12] bed and provided that stability for a [48:14] few days, he was able to sleep? It's [48:16] because when our minds can't relax, [48:18] it's usually because our minds act as [48:20] our protectors. [48:21] Oh. Our brain, it protects—see, we [48:23] actually have a bunch of contradictions [48:25] : our thoughts and our experiences, our [48:27] head, and then our body. When we can't [48:29] sleep, it's because we feel that the [48:31] outside world isn't safe. This [48:33] insecurity has multiple meanings; our [48:35] brain, as a part that cannot stop, [48:37] keeps churning away. Compared to [48:39] Bismarck, the Prime Minister had so [48:40] much more to worry about, right? So he [48:42] might have felt everything depended on [48:44] him, and indeed at that time, Germany [48:46] did rely on him; if he faltered, he [48:47] felt the nation might collapse, so he [48:49] developed these serious problems. When [48:51] that person stayed by his side and said [48:53] to him, "Just go to sleep.""You sleep, [48:55] and I'll protect you." For several [48:57] consecutive nights, knowing this stable [48:59] person was there actually gave him a [49:01] sense of security, and as a result, he [49:02] fell asleep. Of course, the story [49:04] doesn't end there; your question just [49:06] now is spot on. Did this person later [49:08] ...did this person marry Bismarck's [49:10] daughter with an ulterior motive? [49:11] He...he didn't have a motive; he [49:13] originally came to provide treatment, [49:14] then later became Bismarck's advisor, [49:15] and eventually married her. [49:17] Because Bismarck's daughter likely [49:18] suffered from insomnia as well. [49:20] Bismarck couldn't do without him; it [49:21] was essentially like that. [49:23] It's just that this guy couldn't sleep [49:25] with the daughter, he had to be with [49:27] this man. Anyway, he just had to stand [49:29] there in front, which is also quite [49:30] scary. There are some people—I myself [49:32] have encountered people who always want [49:34] to get things done—and you'll realize [49:36] , at first we might think, "Is this [49:38] person just super diligent or something [49:40] ?" That's all true, but there's one [49:42] constant: they always have an [49:44] overflowing energy field. And, because [49:46] I reflect on myself, there are moments [49:48] in my life when I'm more active; I [49:50] think about these things and feel like [49:52] I can forge ahead without hesitation. [49:54] But later I discovered it's a [49:55] physiological trait, like in that [49:57] moment, perhaps I had an exceptionally [49:59] good night's sleep, [50:00] Or maybe I drank two cups of coffee, [50:02] because when I drink coffee, I feel [50:04] energized, and then my perception of [50:06] life and my decisions are different; my [50:08] expectations for the future change as [50:10] well. But perhaps the very next day, in [50:13] the exact same external environment, [50:15] just because I didn't get that sleep— [50:17] maybe I slept poorly, or I didn't get [50:19] to have my coffee—my feeling of [50:21] apprehension becomes very strong, and [50:23] even for the same task, my perception [50:25] changes: "Can I actually do this?""Is [50:27] this thing difficult enough?" Or [50:29] whether others here are helpful enough [50:31] to me? Or even if what someone says at [50:34] this moment makes me feel very annoyed? [50:36] It’s this kind of physiological [50:38] reaction, and later I discovered that [50:40] humans are like machines. They aren't [50:42] stable; they are influenced by your [50:43] brain function and physiological [50:45] factors, which then determine your [50:46] thoughts and perceptions. These [50:48] thoughts and perceptions don't just [50:50] appear out of nowhere. Once, a long [50:52] time ago, I saw a doctor of Chinese [50:55] medicine with a friend. I told him that [50:57] I always feel exhausted after sleeping, [51:00] and he said, "You should be grateful— [51:02] though I don't know if this is true— [51:04] that you have a low energy level; [51:06] because you're able to sleep, you've [51:09] managed to conserve some of it." He [51:11] said, "Let me tell you, some [51:12] entrepreneurs or high achievers— [51:14] beyond their other talents—the most [51:16] important thing is their physical [51:18] mechanism. For example, they only need [51:20] four or five hours of sleep; they [51:22] genuinely don't want to sleep anymore, [51:24] and once they wake up, they are ready [51:26] to go." They have this desire to [51:28] conquer something, and this desire is [51:30] driven by their physiological [51:32] mechanisms. [51:32] Yes. [51:33] And then, that's combined with their [51:35] other abilities and such. [51:36] Yes, so that’s what is meant by that. [51:38] But what if someone vents all their [51:40] desires in their dreams, like when [51:41] they’re shooting guns in their dreams [51:43] ? [51:43] Hmm. [51:44] Do you ever have this issue? Bullets [51:48] are too slow in dreams, so I asked [51:51] Teacher Wu: "Look, as he said, some [51:53] people are full of energy in the real [51:56] world, while others are just like that [51:59] in their dreams." [52:00] Look at my explanation earlier; it [52:01] comes down to these two reasons: sense [52:03] of security and aggression. What is [52:05] this sense of security? To sleep well, [52:07] our minds need to relax, which requires [52:09] a sense of security. A sense of [52:10] security is being convinced that the [52:12] external world is safe, and this safety [52:13] comes from the idea that someone in the [52:14] outside world is protecting you. And [52:16] where does this initial sense of [52:18] security come from? Initially, it comes [52:19] from having a stable caregiver who can [52:21] keep you safe, who is capable and [52:23] strong enough to protect you by your [52:25] side. When you attain this feeling of [52:27] stability, you gain that sense of [52:29] security. When that sense of security [52:31] dwells within your heart, you know for [52:33] certain—it’s actually an [52:35] internalized protector residing within [52:37] you. So at this moment, your brain can [52:39] relax at any time; those who sleep [52:41] exceptionally well usually have a lot [52:44] to do with this. I want to talk more [52:46] about aggression. If we want to [52:48] reconcile our aggression—that is, [52:51] turning raw aggression into a form of [52:53] vitality that is humane—it needs to [52:56] complete two stages. The first stage is [52:59] fear. We worry, for example, that if I [53:01] hit you, I will be immediately [53:03] retaliated against or harmed. But [53:05] according to Freud, aggression is our [53:07] natural vitality, so it must be [53:09] released. However, if you had very [53:10] strict parents when you were a child, [53:12] and the moment you expressed aggression [53:14] you were hit, or felt punished, then [53:16] you wouldn't dare to express it. But [53:18] once your aggression gets past this [53:20] fear stage, you face another problem. [53:22] Another issue is guilt. You worry that [53:25] once expressed, because of your [53:26] aggression, you've attacked someone— [53:28] let's say you attacked your mother— [53:30] and even if she took it well and you [53:32] know she loves you, you then start to [53:33] worry: "What if I hurt her?" Then you [53:36] feel guilt. When there is fear and [53:38] guilt, we find that our aggression [53:40] cannot be released properly, and it [53:42] cannot form a closed loop. Consequently [53:44] , this aggression cannot...for example, [53:47] every day you have something to do, [53:49] this aggression arises, completes its [53:51] process—birth, development, climax, [53:53] decline, and death—and the whole [53:56] thing is finished. As a result, when [53:58] you fall asleep, you have no fear and [54:00] no guilt, and you have this sense of [54:02] security, so you drift off peacefully. [54:05] But if you do something during the day, [54:07] and you're worried about hurting others [54:09] or worried that others will retaliate, [54:10] then this energy cannot be completed, [54:12] and you are left with a massive amount [54:14] of fear and guilt. Of course, this is a [54:16] simple, generalized explanation; there [54:18] are all sorts of other feelings that [54:20] your brain needs to digest while you [54:22] are asleep. Look at this: it's as if [54:24] you have a lot of residual energy from [54:26] the day—sometimes it's not even [54:28] residual, it's just that you only [54:29] expressed a tiny bit during the day— [54:31] that remains. For example, if you've [54:33] been people-pleasing or making too many [54:35] concessions, you may have only used 20% [54:37] of your energy, leaving 80%behind at [54:40] night—so what do you do then? You [54:43] have to use your brain to process and [54:45] digest this, but it’s hard to digest, [54:48] so your mind won't stop; even if you [54:50] seem to fall asleep, you'll have [54:52] self-soothing dreams to deal with it. [54:55] So that’s what this so-called sense [54:58] of security and aggression is all about [55:00] . [55:01] I've heard people compare it to [55:03] sweeping; at night, you're essentially [55:05] sweeping the dust in your brain, right? [55:09] When you sweep, doesn't some dust get [55:12] kicked up? That dust represents the [55:14] residual signals. So, for this type of [55:17] people-pleasing personality, or let's [55:19] take a more extreme example, like a [55:22] eunuch in an ancient imperial palace. [55:24] What would his dreams be like? [55:26] Logically speaking, they would most [55:28] likely be filled with aggression. [55:30] Really? Destruction. [55:32] Because he's a servant, and he has no [55:34] ... [55:34] He’s completely suppressed. [55:35] Yes, completely suppressed. [55:37] Is that so? [55:37] Yes. [55:38] Oh. [55:39] That is a reasonable inference to make. [55:40] Let me ask a side question. Of course, [55:43] when we look at it this way, new [55:44] consultations operate on this [55:46] assumption, including the part just [55:48] mentioned—that we cannot simply guess [55:50] . Even if I am an expert with deep [55:52] experience, and even if my guesses [55:54] often turn out to be accurate, we still [55:56] work on the assumption that only the [55:58] person involved knows the answer. [56:00] Exactly. [56:01] So, the person involved knows the [56:03] answer? This is where a common metaphor [56:05] comes in; in psychoanalytic therapy, [56:07] there is something called "free [56:08] association," which is basically... [56:10] What is free association? [56:12] You have an important feeling. For [56:14] instance, if you have a dream about a [56:17] snake, you first perceive it and [56:18] observe it until it becomes vivid in [56:21] your description, then you ask what [56:23] this snake reminds you of, and what [56:25] that leads to; that is free association [56:27] . It’s that simple. But each person's [56:30] associations could point to different [56:31] issues. [56:32] They are all different, completely [56:33] different. [56:34] Right? [56:35] Yes, at that moment we actually know it [56:37] ourselves; when the answer is right, [56:39] you know deep down it's correct. So [56:41] it's different from scientism, where [56:43] the scientific approach uses physical [56:46] means and objective methods to detect [56:48] that this, this is the answer. But this [56:51] is our subjective world, our inner [56:53] world, and there is no such thing there [56:56] . Personally, I think using purely [56:58] scientific means to study dreams, [57:00] dreamscapes, or our complex inner [57:02] psychological activities presents this [57:04] problem: you cannot find something that [57:06] can be simply measured and say, "Boom," [57:09] this is it. So this becomes this part, [57:11] which is also a premise of [57:13] psychological counseling, but. Of [57:15] course, not all psychological views [57:17] assume we know what the answer is [57:19] ourselves; you might have ten answers, [57:21] but when that one answer emerges, you [57:23] feel a "click," and you feel it's [57:25] psychologically right. Whether it's a [57:28] standard answer or something a doctor [57:30] told you, like "You should actually [57:32] think this way," none of that matters, [57:34] right. [57:34] Instead, it is in this process that you [57:37] are discovering yourself. [57:38] And you don't even need to tell others; [57:40] you know for yourself exactly which [57:42] point triggered something in you. This [57:45] process of reflection is a healing [57:47] process. [57:48] At the very least, this process of [57:50] finding an answer has a certain healing [57:52] quality, though not necessarily a [57:54] complete cure. Recently, I've been [57:56] looking at Maslow again; back in [57:58] college, we were talking about Maslow's [58:00] hierarchy of needs. [58:01] You know, the lowest level is getting [58:03] enough to eat and drink, then the need [58:05] for security arises, followed by the [58:07] need for love and respect, and finally [58:09] the need for self-actualization. [58:10] I feel we haven't really taken a [58:12] serious look at Maslow's psychology. [58:15] Maslow once said something very [58:17] interesting; he said 90%of psychology [58:20] is focused on the negative side. [58:23] Meaning, why are you anxious, fearful, [58:26] angry, or losing control? And this [58:28] includes 90%of sleep research, which [58:31] studies why you can't sleep and what's [58:33] on your mind. He asked why we can't use [58:36] the same energy to study [58:38] positive psychology? Why don't we look [58:42] at people with normal mindsets, and why [58:44] don't we study the compassion in human [58:47] nature? Things like love, kinship, [58:49] parental love—why don't we talk about [58:52] that? He even asked why we don't study [58:54] those who are successful. Why do we [58:56] always study the apparent losers and [58:59] those who face setbacks in life? He [59:03] argues that we can gain even more [59:05] psychological insights from positive [59:07] figures. What are the good qualities? [59:11] Stop focusing only on what's wrong so [59:14] we can find a cure. What kind of people [59:16] are those who can fall asleep the [59:18] moment their head hits the pillow? Some [59:20] doctors even suggest that you should [59:22] make more friends like that. Perhaps [59:24] many aspects of their personality would [59:26] help me if I became friends with them. [59:27] This...this isn't necessarily true. You [59:30] might actually sleep worse if you spend [59:32] time with people like that. [59:33] That won't work, no, no. [59:35] Some people have their own kind of [59:37] suffering. [59:37] Because those people themselves live [59:39] very carefreely. [59:40] You might find that when you're with [59:41] them, their aggressiveness is [59:42] overwhelming. Right? [59:43] It's just that you often have to [59:44] acknowledge... [59:45] Is this even a big deal? Is it? Don't [59:47] think about it that way. [59:48] Don't you talk about "Brother Six." [59:50] It's just that simple. In my experience [59:52] , it doesn't make me lose more sleep. I [59:54] like, I really like interacting with [59:56] friends like that. Sometimes, I [59:58] remember we had a boss, an old [60:00] gentleman, who would say—with that [60:01] Shandong accent— "How big of a deal [60:03] is it?" As soon as I heard him say "How [60:05] big of a deal," I immediately felt that [60:07] it really wasn't a big deal at all. [60:08] But speaking of what you mentioned [60:10] about Maslow regarding the positive [60:12] effects of sleep or dreams...I suddenly [60:15] remembered why I wanted to interrupt [60:17] earlier. I read a book about a [60:19] high-ranking official during Nazi [60:21] Germany. He was on the other side, and [60:24] he once said, roughly, that the only [60:26] people in Germany who had a private [60:29] life were those who were asleep. [60:32] Meaning that for people living in [60:35] abnormal times, dreams actually possess [60:38] a huge... [60:40] healing power. Because they are free, [60:42] they are the only thing that is [60:43] uncontrolled. [60:44] Yes, exactly, they are not monitored. [60:46] Just think, isn't that dream amazing? [60:48] Dreams are freedom. [60:49] Dreams are freedom. [60:51] I've always felt that dreams are [60:52] actually the most impossible things to [60:54] share. For example, I rarely...I often [60:55] see people, like on social media, [60:57] saying, "Oh, I had a dream yesterday." [60:59] I'll just scroll past it; I won't read [61:01] it because I know I cannot empathize [61:03] with that dream. If they say they [61:04] encountered something in their life, [61:06] I'm very interested, but I think dreams [61:08] are something you just...you don't need [61:10] to tell others, because dreams are the [61:11] only thing that cannot be shared. [61:13] Because dreams are never accurate when [61:15] described in language, [61:16] Right, [61:17] so they are your own unique secrets; [61:20] you are the one who understands them, [61:23] and they belong to you—they represent [61:25] your self-understanding, a form of [61:28] freedom, and something secret that is [61:30] difficult to pass on. I must say, even [61:33] though what you’ve all said makes a [61:35] lot of sense, before Freud appeared, [61:38] who was really this interested in [61:40] dreams? [61:40] Who else could have interpreted dreams [61:43] to the extent that Freud did? So, on [61:45] one hand, we truly use free association [61:48] , or fundamentally, we are our own [61:50] dream interpreters; we are our own [61:53] therapists, and the answer lies within [61:55] ourselves. But look, before Freud, [61:57] everyone thought dreams were divine and [62:00] incomprehensible, often linked to fate, [62:02] or seen as various signs, but in [62:04] reality, you can see it's quite [62:06] different. When it came to Freud, he [62:08] used a scientific method to explore [62:10] them. You might not be able to say [62:12] whether his interpretation is right or [62:14] wrong, but in a certain sense, dreams [62:17] finally began to be understood [62:18] systematically. I'm curious, but how [62:20] can we prove that what he said is [62:22] correct? Because dreams cannot be [62:24] falsified, [62:24] because we ourselves just know. I often [62:27] have a sense of mystery myself, feeling [62:29] that dreams have a predictive quality. [62:31] Right? I later read an article that [62:33] explained dreams don't actually have [62:35] predictive power. Dreams cannot show [62:37] you the future world, [62:38] but dreams can show you yourself. [62:41] Right, [62:42] dreams can show you the past. [62:44] He said that so-called "premonitions" [62:46] are actually just memories, desires, [62:48] and expectations. These three things. [62:50] This aligns more with my own dreams. I [62:53] have to say, the overblown imagination [62:55] of dreams as having supernatural [62:56] abilities is, in my view, unfounded. [62:58] They are actually a form of [63:00] introspection, looking back. [63:01] True, but I still think they are very [63:04] meaningful to us. Regardless of whether [63:06] they physiologically or objectively [63:08] serve to flush out brain waves like [63:10] gamma or something, right? That doesn't [63:12] really matter, whether it's beta or... [63:15] right? Regardless of whether it's gamma [63:17] or beta, but for me, what was I saying? [63:24] For us, why it is particularly [63:26] meaningful, as you just said, is that [63:29] it connects certain feelings together, [63:31] because I once mentioned on this show [63:33] that [63:38] After my mother had a stroke, she could [63:40] not, she just couldn't speak anymore. [63:43] At that time, I was at the foot of [63:45] Mount Huang, and it was only a few days [63:48] after she was hospitalized that she [63:50] lost consciousness. She only said one [63:53] thing to me over the phone, probably [63:56] asking me, "I'm okay," just very weakly [63:58] . That was the last sentence I ever [64:02] heard from my mother. I had a deep [64:04] impression of it, which I still [64:07] remember today, because she was so [64:09] frail. So you could feel that her voice [64:12] was extremely weak, yet also very [64:15] gentle, so gentle and powerless, you [64:17] know? It was that kind of feeling. [64:21] Later, it involved finding hospitals [64:23] and other issues. Then, a few days ago, [64:27] I had a dream where I dreamt that my [64:30] mother was critically ill. Then, I was [64:33] holding her; I remember holding her [64:35] like this, holding her right here, and [64:38] her head was resting here, right here. [64:41] Because of that weakness, her head was [64:43] just like this, like this, oh, just so [64:46] limp. In the dream, she was leaning on [64:48] me while I was holding her between the [64:50] stairwells of two hospitals. It seemed [64:52] like I was discussing with my older and [64:54] younger brothers, saying, "Oh, that [64:56] hospital has no parking," and they said [64:58] , "That doctor isn't seeing patients," [65:00] just feeling anxious in the dream, [65:02] standing there. Then, my mother didn't [65:05] make a sound, but I remember her head, [65:08] very weak yet very gentle, resting [65:11] against me as I ran with her. It was [65:18] exactly the same feeling I had when I [65:21] heard her voice back then, but in the [65:23] dream, her soft, weak face against my [65:26] ear and her hair matched that feeling [65:28] of her voice, and I think dreams allow [65:31] us to [65:34] How should I say, leave an impression, [65:37] or let us re-perceive things. Oh, after [65:41] waking up from this dream, I was [65:43] reminded of that feeling when my mother [65:46] spoke those last words to me. But look, [65:50] in the dream, I was carrying him while [65:52] running, and his head—like someone in [65:55] a coma—the way his hair felt, the [65:58] tactile sensation. [66:00] You know, that feeling was completely, [66:03] in the dream I knew it was exactly [66:05] identical. [66:06] I feel that the depth of the emotions [66:09] in a dream, or rather, it makes me feel [66:12] like people might be wearing a fake [66:14] shell in reality, or at least a layer [66:17] of skin. [66:18] Mm. [66:19] But the sensations, the touch, and all [66:21] the synesthesia combined in the dream [66:22] feel like that skin has been peeled [66:24] away. [66:24] Right. [66:26] I feel like it's completely exposed, [66:28] you’re coming face to face with your [66:29] own heart. [66:30] People of our generation actually don't [66:32] have much emotional exchange with our [66:34] parents. [66:35] It’s always that kind of thing. [66:37] But for you, too—I only dream of my [66:39] father. My father is already, well...we [66:41] often have long conversations, and the [66:43] feeling is especially harmonious, [66:44] especially fulfilling. But in real life [66:46] , even if my father were still alive, I [66:48] don't believe I would express that much [66:50] to him. [66:50] Is it possible in a dream, when you're [66:52] in real, extreme pain, that you wake up [66:54] and feel your heart aching? [66:56] Mm. [66:57] It’s a real ache. It's not, it's not [67:00] imagining it. [67:01] Then you should get an EKG first. [67:03] Really? It happens occasionally, very [67:06] rarely. [67:07] But I often, for example, sleep through [67:09] the afternoon. [67:10] It’s not sleeping through, it’s [67:12] like oversleeping until evening, [67:14] sometimes waking up feeling especially [67:16] desperate. This isn't just about dreams [67:18] , it's about how napping shouldn't be [67:20] too long. This is connected to the [67:23] science of sleep. [67:24] Because a complete sleep cycle requires [67:26] going through stages one, two, three, [67:29] and four, completing that entire [67:31] process, and then going from light to [67:33] deep sleep and coming back out; it [67:35] takes time. You might need, say, two or [67:38] three hours to complete such a cycle, [67:41] or they say 45 minutes to reach a [67:43] certain state. If you sleep for a long [67:46] time, it leads to you seemingly [67:48] entering deep sleep, but you don't [67:50] complete the cycle, so you enter a very [67:52] uncomfortable state. But at night, if [67:55] we sleep for at least five or six hours [67:57] , or even seven, eight, or ten hours, [67:59] you allow your sleep to be in a [68:01] complete state. The small and large [68:03] circulation. [68:04] Waking up in the evening is the most [68:06] desperate. [68:07] Why is that? Ah. [68:09] So all three of us patients have this [68:11] symptom. [68:12] Having that feeling when waking up in [68:13] the evening, it seems so. [68:14] I feel like my heart is incredibly gray [68:16] . [68:16] For me, after 3 PM, I absolutely dare [68:20] not [68:20] let myself sleep, no matter how tired I [68:22] am; I avoid that kind of sleep. [68:23] I avoid it after 3 PM because I know [68:26] waking up at dusk brings an [68:27] inexplicable sense of despair; you look [68:29] up, and remember the sky was still [68:31] bright when you fell asleep. When you [68:33] look up and wake up, the city lights [68:36] are already on; it’s not that [68:37] familiar, peaceful feeling of dusk you [68:40] usually see. A person's state is [68:41] actually related to body temperature; [68:43] for instance, if you sleep well, and [68:45] you find you can't fall asleep, your [68:47] body remains hot. Right. [68:49] When you wake up, and you've slept well [68:51] , your body temperature cools down. [68:52] And then, there is a pattern to body [68:54] temperature changes. For most people, [68:57] from the moment you wake up and see the [68:59] daylight, your body temperature starts [69:02] to rise and rise, then it drops a bit [69:04] in the afternoon, and around dusk, [69:07] supposedly around 6 PM, it rises again [69:09] before gradually falling. In a healthy [69:12] young person, there's a daily [69:14] fluctuation of about 1.5 degrees in [69:16] body temperature. When you're in a good [69:19] state, that’s when you wake up, so [69:21] taking short naps makes sense. [69:25] I also feel that I need to know how the [69:28] darkness arrives; you watch the sky and [69:31] can perceive the daylight fading away [69:33] day by day. I think there’s a [69:37] physiological sensation to it, but if [69:40] you sleep after 3 PM and wake up to [69:42] darkness, I feel like that darkness [69:44] crept in without saying hello, and I [69:47] feel a huge sense of oppression. [69:50] So, the human body is the most complex [69:53] universe, right? I think its complexity [69:56] lies in its agency. [69:57] Right. [69:58] You can't kill a person to study them, [70:00] because the moment you understand them [70:01] by dissecting them, [70:02] Right. [70:03] the subject of your dissection is dead. [70:05] Right. [70:06] But when they are alive, there's this [70:08] agency. I think psychology has a vast [70:11] world to explore. So, there’s a huge [70:13] contradiction in psychology; you see, [70:15] psychology studies the subjective world [70:16] , and the subjective world cannot be [70:18] studied using the logic of the [70:19] objective world. [70:20] Consequently, this leads to a part that [70:22] is very difficult to standardize and [70:24] very difficult to quantify. [70:26] Right, for example, with standards, I [70:28] tell you, I have this, I have this data [70:31] , I have the data. You see, as it gets [70:33] toward late afternoon or evening, [70:34] people are at their sharpest and most [70:36] active. Regardless of whether you had [70:38] insomnia the night before, your mind [70:39] will become sharper as your body [70:41] temperature rises. That sounds like [70:43] self-consolation. [70:44] After he finishes reading, he finds [70:46] things in thousands of books that [70:48] support his own views. [70:49] Exactly, exactly. For those suffering [70:52] from insomnia—this is just my [70:53] personal experience, so take it for [70:55] what it's worth—you have to tell [70:56] yourself it's no big deal. Suppose you [70:58] skip a meal. You're just hungry, right? [71:01] But why don't you have anxiety about [71:03] that? [71:03] Right? You missed some sleep, why take [71:06] it so seriously? [71:07] I have some clients, a few with very [71:09] severe cases, who have this—I mean, [71:11] serious sleep problems. They have this [71:13] logic where they feel their daytime [71:15] state is poor simply because they [71:16] didn't sleep well at night. For example [71:18] , they're not working well during the [71:20] day, or they can't handle interpersonal [71:22] relationships, and they blame it [71:23] entirely on not sleeping well the night [71:25] before. So they hold onto this logic [71:27] that if they sleep well at night, [71:29] they’ll be in a good state the next [71:31] day, and then they can live and work [71:32] well. [71:33] I’ve even come up with two [71:34] prescriptions for this myself; the [71:35] first one is using early rising to [71:37] force early sleeping. [71:38] That still... [71:39] You have to get up early in the morning [71:40] —say, 6 a.m.—and let’s see if you [71:42] can still oversleep the next day. [71:43] There's another one. [71:44] The problem is that they can't fall [71:45] asleep. [71:46] There's another point I think is like [71:47] raising children. When I take care of [71:48] kids, if you don't wear them out during [71:50] the day, they'll wear you out at night. [71:51] Yes, I think that’s a key issue. You [71:53] have to be "worn out" during the day, [71:54] so their logic is backwards. Right. [71:56] Actually, when they do have a good [71:58] night's sleep by chance, they find [71:59] their work is still poor the next day, [72:00] and then they sleep poorly the [72:01] following night. So, we eventually [72:03] concluded that the logic should be [72:04] reversed. [72:05] You have to expend your energy. [72:07] Right. [72:08] Get that energy out, definitely. [72:10] How do you expend it? [72:12] It's just...I mean, regarding [72:13] aggression, who do you direct it toward [72:15] ? You get scolded by your boss during [72:17] the day. [72:18] If you get scolded by your boss during [72:19] the day, who do you attack at night? We [72:21] use "aggression" as a simple term; we [72:23] don't mean physically hitting people. I [72:25] believe that diligent people generally [72:28] don't suffer from insomnia. [72:29] That's not necessarily true; many [72:31] people are diligently suffering from [72:32] insomnia. [72:33] Right. They are very diligently [72:35] suffering from insomnia. [72:36] Those who don't suffer from insomnia [72:37] shouldn't try to summarize things for [72:39] those who do. [72:39] Let’s use a simple example, though it [72:41] might not apply to you. Suppose you do [72:43] a great job on your show today, and you [72:45] feel like you’ve said everything you [72:46] needed to say, leaving you with a sense [72:48] of fulfillment; then at night, you [72:49] might fall asleep the moment your head [72:51] hits the pillow—though that’s not [72:53] the case for you, is it? Generally [72:54] speaking, if you’ve used up all your [72:56] energy during the day, you should be [72:57] able to sleep very well at night. But [72:59] most people with insomnia say, "I’m [73:01] exhausted, I’m so tired, I feel like [73:03] I’ve used up all my energy," yet they [73:05] just can’t sleep—they’re not [73:07] sleepy. [73:07] That kind of energy is different; [73:09] that’s your thinking working overtime [73:10] . [73:10] It’s like you’re exerting effort in [73:12] your thoughts. It’s as if you want to [73:14] express aggression, but—bam—you [73:15] suppress it. You keep your thinking [73:17] constrained there, and it makes you [73:18] feel uncomfortable. You end up [73:19] overthinking, and ultimately, your [73:21] thoughts and experiences—or, let's [73:22] say, your thinking and your aggression [73:23] —form this kind of process. If you [73:25] find that your efforts flow smoothly, [73:27] then you just go with it. Of course, [73:29] speaking of this, I’m not that kind [73:31] of person either. [73:32] Are you an insomniac? [73:33] Well, I wouldn't dare say anything, [73:35] because I actually sleep well. [73:37] Actually, I think this is quite simple. [73:40] There’s a threshold: if you truly [73:42] reach a point where you need [73:43] professional medical help or a [73:45] professional psychologist, then you [73:47] should go see a doctor, right? But, for [73:49] all my friends, from teenagers to [73:51] seventy-year-olds...... [73:54] it seems unrealistic to expect anyone [73:56] to go to bed before midnight nowadays. [73:58] Some people certainly have rigid, [74:00] objective work pressures, right? But [74:03] don’t you think that for most people? [74:05] Mm, that’s right. [74:06] They just can't bear to go to sleep. [74:08] Exactly. So, we could make an ad: "Do [74:10] you want to sleep better?" Just swap [74:12] the phone in your hand for a book— [74:14] that’s it. [74:14] Back when we didn't have this habit, [74:16] besides reading, what else did we need [74:18] to do before bed? Even if it was just [74:20] your mom telling you a story, right? [74:22] Things like that were probably more [74:23] tiring than this. [74:24] I have a practical rule now: if I’m [74:26] reading before bed and I find myself [74:27] reading the same few lines over and [74:29] over, and after twenty minutes I still [74:31] don't know what they mean, I go to [74:32] sleep immediately. [74:33] It’s that moment when you’re just [74:35] dragging yourself along, line by line. [74:38] Xiao Nan, do you think what you dream [74:40] about is related to what you read [74:43] before bed? [74:44] Hey, I’m turning this into a rather [74:46] twisted question now. For example, if I [74:49] really like a girl, hmm, [74:51] if we're in love, and I fall asleep [74:53] holding her, will I still dream of her? [74:55] Generally speaking, no. I don't think [74:57] immediately, [74:58] so this is exactly your question just [75:01] now, I... [75:01] Psychologists in the U.S. military [75:03] discovered that if a person's dreams at [75:05] night are directly related to, or even [75:08] resemble, what they experienced during [75:10] the day—for example, during wartime [75:12] —that person has likely developed [75:14] trauma and needs to be removed from the [75:16] battlefield. [75:17] Yes, immediately. [75:19] Because as we mentioned, even though [75:21] our thinking has many issues, the mind [75:23] has a huge protective function, and a [75:25] balancing... [75:25] The shocks during the day are too [75:27] severe, so we must realize our minds [75:29] are limited. We have to use our brain's [75:31] defense mechanisms to deceive ourselves [75:33] , filtering out a lot of information [75:34] and only allowing in what is more [75:36] compatible with our inner state, so in [75:38] this case, the dream... [75:39] No wonder Teacher Chen says that while [75:40] his daughter might be the most [75:41] important person in his life, he has [75:43] never once dreamed of her. [75:44] I rarely dream of my children, it's [75:46] very strange. [75:46] Can I use your theory to explain this? [75:49] Is it that... [75:50] Maybe one day when they are no longer [75:51] by your side, it's possible... [75:53] that they will appear in your dreams. [75:55] Hey, I have another curious question: [75:57] do your dreams have colors? [75:58] People have said that dreams aren't [76:00] colored. [76:01] Right, why am I asking this? Because I [76:04] only remember one instance; when I was [76:06] a child, I dreamed of golden flowers by [76:09] the roadside. [76:10] I was particularly impressed by the [76:12] color gold; it felt so blissful. In the [76:14] dream, I even said to myself, "I'm so [76:17] happy." I often develop another version [76:19] of myself in my dreams who knows I'm [76:20] dreaming. Yes, hmm. [76:23] At that time, I felt the car swaying [76:25] ahead, and by the roadside were large, [76:27] blooming flowers, golden and red. Ah, [76:30] how strange, just that one time. [76:32] Because I'm an artist, I often have [76:35] colorful dreams. [76:36] I feel like I can't recall my dreams at [76:38] all right now. [76:39] Your dreams aren't colored, are they? [76:41] No, it's just that I can't put it into [76:42] words; I'm not conscious of it, just [76:44] like that feeling you mentioned. Hmm. [76:46] It's like I can't describe my dreams [76:47] with language; they are just a cluster [76:49] of feelings. But if you ask me to [76:50] recall, I can't even remember if they [76:52] have color or not. Only that one time I [76:54] was conscious did it have color. [76:55] If we put it that way, my dreams are [76:57] extremely rich in color. Moreover, I [77:00] often have a certain type of dream—a [77:02] classic one that took me many years to [77:04] gradually unravel. As a photography [77:06] enthusiast, a real hardcore fan, I’ve [77:08] had this one dream at least five or six [77:10] hundred times. In it, there’s this [77:13] incredibly magnificent scenery, with [77:15] colors you could never find in reality. [77:17] It’s so breathtaking that I always [77:19] reach for my camera. But either the [77:21] camera is broken or the lens is damaged [77:23] , so I just can’t take the shot. Out [77:25] of those five or six hundred dreams, [77:27] I’ve only managed to capture it two [77:29] or three times, and only once was the [77:31] result perfect—exactly what I saw is [77:33] what I got. [77:33] It’s like when we can’t get a [77:35] broadcast out; it’s a case of not [77:37] being able to reach anyone. It might [77:39] not be about the colors, but when [77:41] you’re focused on the photography [77:43] itself, that golden blossom, I feel an [77:45] indescribable sense of happiness in my [77:48] heart. [77:48] For example, consider various vicious [77:50] criminals; as long as they are with [77:52] people, you can punish them however you [77:53] like and they might not be afraid. But [77:55] if you lock them in a dark room and [77:58] restrain their bodies, for them, that [78:00] is truly terrifying. You could say this [78:02] is because they have entered a state of [78:04] total darkness. Actually, a major [78:06] reason why we can’t sleep well is [78:09] that we can’t enter that total [78:11] darkness. It’s because we can’t [78:13] stop our consciousness and thoughts [78:16] completely; only then can you sleep [78:18] soundly and peacefully. I don’t think [78:21] there are more than five people around [78:23] me who have such excellent sleep [78:25] quality; they seem to enjoy every day [78:28] of their lives, living freely and [78:30] happily. For them, they live [78:31] brilliantly during the day, pass away [78:33] peacefully at night, and wake up the [78:35] next day to continue living this [78:37] exquisite, vibrant life. [78:38] We are so miserable compared to them. [78:41] Those of us with such vivid dreams [78:43] likely have rather dull days, or [78:45] perhaps unfulfilled wishes from our [78:47] waking hours. As the poem says, "In a [78:50] dream, one forgets they are a guest," [78:52] and upon waking, you yearn for that [78:55] dream, right? Like "the rain outside [78:57] the curtain" or "the thin spring [78:58] clothes unable to withstand the dawn [79:00] chill," isn’t that it? And look at [79:02] him—he had lost his country, he had [79:04] truly lost his country. And then, this [79:07] line "In dreams, one knows not the [79:09] passage of time,"—what do you think [79:11] he was dreaming about? What he was [79:13] dreaming about was what he originally [79:16] had in his [79:16] Well, let me frame this using a more [79:19] positive, more upbeat perspective. I [79:22] recall something from Pascal; his point [79:25] was essentially that if a farmer dreams [79:27] for twelve consecutive nights that he [79:30] is a king, he would be just as happy as [79:32] a king who dreams for twelve [79:34] consecutive nights that he is a farmer. [79:37] Right. [79:38] This saying [79:40] It really shows the vastness of the [79:41] dream world, and sometimes I feel that [79:43] when the nights are long, one shouldn't [79:45] drink. [79:46] I mean, if your life is composed half [79:48] of dreams and half of reality, then [79:51] your life is made of both. Don't worry [79:53] about which one is "real"; that [79:55] wonderful world in your dreams occupies [79:58] a huge part of your life. It is real, [80:00] and your experience in those moments is [80:03] real too. [80:04] In real life, you might only be a king, [80:06] but in your dreams, you can be a farmer [80:08] —isn't that amazing! Dreams also [80:10] enrich a huge part of our lives, just [80:13] like sleep, which takes up a third of [80:16] our lifetime. And interestingly, [80:19] science still cannot fully explain or [80:21] reach a conclusion as to why humans [80:24] absolutely need sleep. [80:26] Right. [80:27] No conclusion. Why do people dream? No [80:30] conclusion. There is. [80:32] It's just like a computer rebooting; it [80:34] simply has to reboot. Because I [80:36] personally feel that in that state [80:37] between dreaming and waking, my mind is [80:39] at its most active. [80:40] And that speed is many times faster [80:43] than my usual pace; I even surprise [80:45] myself. Many people call this a " [80:47] stampede of ten thousand horses." Many [80:50] of the major decisions in my life and [80:52] new ideas [80:53] My best inspirations have all [80:55] It really is just that