窦文涛许子东剖析算法陷阱 微短剧与碎片消费加剧认知退化

窦文涛许子东剖析算法陷阱 微短剧与碎片消费加剧认知退化 数字算法与即时多巴胺反馈通过迎合人性弱点粉碎深度注意力，导致未建立系统知识底座的受众陷入认知机能退化与被动受控的困境。 窦文涛与摄影师肖全、学者许子东等嘉宾从关闭朋友圈的错失恐惧（FOMO）与肖全经典的90年代文化名家肖像谈起，深度反思了当下的审美滤镜与视觉异化。众人深入剖析了电商算法成瘾、极致物流背后的劳动力压榨，以及包豪斯与极简主义背后的工业成本真相，同时关照了老年群体面对智能化时代的失控感。随后，对谈转向微短剧的野蛮生长与“脑腐（brain rot）”危机，探讨了快节奏碎片化内容对人类神经专注力的侵蚀。最终，嘉宾们倡导在信息过载的浪潮中建立内在的精神秩序与专注力边界，以居中克制的智慧化解认知贪婪。 中国微短剧市场规模已迅猛扩张至约425亿元人民币，逼近约500亿元的传统院线电影票房，正深刻重塑公众的叙事耐受度与时间感知阈值。 (59:50) 牛津大学出版社将“脑雾/脑萎缩”（Brain Rot）评为2024年度词汇，脑部扫描研究显示，长期被动接受AI与短视频碎片刺激会导致大脑神经元活跃度下降与认知硬件退化。 (59:50) 现代电商的算法推荐与极致低价虽然提供了即时快感，但其实质是以无尽的时间注意力为代价，并将极度内卷的成本压力转嫁给底层骑手与服务业从业人员。 (27:38) 包豪斯与极简主义在历史源头上并非单纯的先锋美学顿悟，而是工业革命后标准化压模生产以及一战后德国巨额战债压力下削减成本的产物。 (19:00)

窦文涛与嘉宾在节目中探讨了当代数字技术与消费社会对个体精力的侵蚀，指出心智成熟的关键在于对抗“认知的贪婪”与即时满足的诱惑，学会在社交网络、廉价物欲和碎片信息中建立边界，以保持内在的专注与精神秩序。 社交网络绑架与错失恐惧的虚妄 (0:00) 关闭朋友圈等社交网络动态往往会诱发“错失恐惧症”（FOMO），令人担忧遗漏机遇或关键信息，但嘉宾指出这种错失往往是“塞翁失马”，反而避免了无效干扰与情绪消耗。移动互联网将公众人物甚至普通人的曝光门槛极度前置，算法推送的极端财富与成名个案加剧了同辈压力，使二十岁出头的年轻人群体普遍产生未老先衰与一事无成的焦虑。 与此同时，智能设备全面侵占了生活缝隙。嘉宾指出，人类前额叶皮层天然容易被频繁打断和刺激所吸引，导致个体看似整天在手机上处理繁杂事务，实则深度专注力被彻底粉碎，甚至演变为不带手机便无法自处、周末足不出户依然精疲力竭的普遍异化状态。 算法便利背后的物欲膨胀与代价 (27:38) 现代商业物流与算法推荐以极高效率营造出低成本“捡漏”快感，十元低价包邮与无理由退换降低了试错门槛，却诱导消费者耗费大量时间反复比对商品并实时追踪物流轨迹。嘉宾援引信息论观点指出，当一件低廉物品所消耗的包装、轨迹监控与决策时间远远超出物品本身时，便构成了严重的“形式过剩”，不仅耗费原创精力，也制造了大量的物理垃圾。 更为残酷的是，这种极致便利与低廉服务并非无痛的技术奇迹，而是建立在特定发展阶段的人口红利与对底层劳动者的严苛惩戒之上。许子东举例提及外卖骑手因送错一盒鲜肉月饼面临全额赔偿而痛哭，反映出从国营时期的冷漠服务到如今五星好评机制的统治，极端内卷与平台扣罚已经深度挤压了普通从业者的生存喘息空间。 内在秩序与时间沉淀的精神抵抗 (24:44) 面对算法时代的浮躁，嘉宾通过摄影家肖全的经典肖像与莫言、史铁生等八十年代作家的长期影响力展开反思。窦文涛借物理磁力线比喻指出，人的精气神需要高度的内在“有序”，认准核心方向持续积累。许子东分析认为，莫言、史铁生等作家历经四十年依然占据文坛主流，并非外部环境未变，而是他们坚守写作的原始驱动力，从当年思想解放的“先锋”蜕变成了守护改革开放人文精神的“守门人”。 这种抵抗同样体现在深度艺术实践中。肖全拍摄史铁生、姜文与戴锦华等时代面孔，依靠的是长期的朝夕相处与深厚信任，捕捉的是褪去浮华后的精神气场，而非迎合磨皮滤镜或速食审美。正如嘉宾引述阿城对包豪斯风格经济成因的去魅，真正的“少即是多”源于对极度繁复历练后的精准提炼，是在纷乱世界中保留清醒的定力。 微短剧与碎片化狂欢下的认知侵蚀 (53:13) 微短剧凭借极速反转、当众羞辱与阶层逆袭的套路迅速崛起，国内市场规模已激增至数百亿元，直逼传统院线电影票房。嘉宾分析认为，这类内容直接迎合了大众对即刻多巴胺与一夜暴富的心理渴求，正如马克·吐温《百万英镑》所折射的虚荣人性。然而，一分钟叙事的泛滥打破了大众对耐心的感知阈值，令影视行业不得不全面前置冲突。 针对全球神经科学研究，嘉宾提醒注意碎片化刺激对大脑硬件的器质性改变：被动接收预消化碎片会导致大脑神经元活跃度下降，主动思考与构建能力退化，这正是牛津大学将“脑腐”（Brain Rot）评为年度词汇的背景。但窦文涛与嘉宾也指出，成熟受众无需彻底因噎废食，关键在于以清醒的鉴别力“驯化算法”，利用精简提炼的内容服务于自身的知识结构，而非沦为机器喂养的受体。 技术与算法的飞速演进极大提升了现代社会的协作效率，但也带来了深刻的代际鸿沟与信息过载危机。在被技术与消费全面侵占的当下，心智成熟的核心挑战在于克服想要穷尽一切经验的“认知贪婪”，在海量碎片中主动建立防线，找回向内专注的生活秩序。

[10:27] 在那一刻，你什么都不需要 [10:27] 买东西之前先想两遍，没有它你能不能活？如果能，就别买。 [19:00] 少即是多（less is more） [19:00] 绚烂之极归于平淡 [15:23] 贾平凹: 肖，别到处骗那些小姑娘跟你结婚了 [21:02] 正方形万岁 [30:07] 本店不打骂顾客 [30:07] 您觉得我刚才的服务还可以吗？如果满意，挂断后请务必给我一个五星好评。 [35:04] 信息的表达形式不应超过信息本身 [39:18] 那个女的为什么老让你左转、右转？ [39:18] 你在深圳买个盒饭坐飞机给我送北京来，这得多划不来！ [42:35] 我原来自己扎手指头我还能测，现在你买这个，你不在家我根本不会使！ [42:35] 别让我选，我什么都不想吃。 [46:07] 卡尔·马克思: 人的本质是一切社会关系的总和 [0:00] 塞翁失马，焉知非福

[0:00] Just like you said about WeChat Moments [0:01] . I’ve turned mine off too. I don’t [0:04] check them anymore, but I still keep [0:05] WeChat. [0:07] Isn't WeChat Moments part of WeChat? [0:10] You’re about the same generation as [0:12] my dad, aren't you? But sometimes if [0:14] you don't check those Moments, it’s [0:16] actually a bit risky. By risky, I mean [0:21] you might miss out on important [0:22] information that you didn't see. [0:26] So the distress comes from not wanting [0:28] to miss anything. Of course, perhaps [0:31] the Moment you missed could have been [0:33] an epiphany, or even worth a fortune. [0:36] But it could also be a disaster you [0:38] lost. [0:38] Right. [0:39] Just happened to lose it. [0:40] Mm. " [0:41] A blessing in disguise," that's the [0:43] difference between middle-aged and [0:45] older people. Without the internet, we [0:47] might not have known what we didn't [0:48] know. Now, you’re just terrified that [0:50] you don't know what everyone else knows [0:52] . [0:53] But actually, I think it's hard to say [0:55] if what you see is the real truth. For [0:58] example, many young people in their 20s [1:00] already feel very old. I wonder why? [1:04] Because there are always younger people [1:06] being seen. Think about it: on the [1:08] internet, there’s a seven-year-old [1:10] kid in America doing toy unboxing [1:12] reviews, and they're already on the [1:14] rich list at seven. Don't you feel old [1:16] then? Don't you feel like you've [1:18] accomplished nothing? Because the age [1:20] at which people are being "seen" is [1:22] getting younger and younger. In the [1:25] past, you really had to reach a certain [1:27] age stage to be recognized by society, [1:29] or talked about, or feel you had the [1:31] credentials to be "seen" or have some [1:33] work to show. Now it's so easy to be [1:36] seen, that those who haven't been seen [1:38] feel, "Oh, I'm old, I haven't, I've [1:40] accomplished nothing." But are you [1:42] really seeing the truth? There are so [1:44] many other seven-year-olds like that [1:45] kid whom you haven't seen. Or what is [1:47] the real life of those other people [1:49] like? You haven't seen it at all. [1:51] You must be ignorant of some things to [1:53] have other things worth more. [1:55] Hey, even if there are people who don't [1:57] know Teacher Xiao, I'll just show you [1:59] the photo, and you'll go, "Who is this? [2:01] " right? [2:02] Mm. [2:03] Xiao Dou. Who is this? Wei, who is this [2:06] ? [2:06] Yang Liping. [2:07] Did you see Yang Liping? This one, huh? [2:10] These were all at that time. [2:12] These few decades? [2:13] 1994. [2:14] Four years. [2:14] Zhou, yes, yes, yes. [2:16] This is 1995. [2:17] 1995, huh? Jiang Wen. [2:19] Jiang Wen, Sanmao, in Chengdu. [2:20] Sanmao in that year. [2:21] This was Sanmao's last time. [2:22] Yes, three months later she passed. [2:24] Hey, Teacher Xu, do you recognize this [2:25] person from your literary circle? [2:26] That's Shi Tiesheng. [2:27] Yes, yes, Shi Tiesheng. [2:29] Shi Tiesheng, and this is Shi [2:30] Tiesheng's wife next to him. [2:31] Yes, that's right, also in '91. '91, [2:34] right. And hey, you must know this one [2:36] too. [2:36] Shanghai's Wang Yi. [2:37] Wang Anyi, Wang Anyi. Hey, you must [2:40] know her well. [2:41] Oh yeah, Old Cui. [2:42] Old Cui, yes. And this is [2:45] Pingwa. [2:45] Fake Pingwa. [2:46] Fake. [2:47] Stripped bare, called a duck. How did [2:49] you end up hanging out with all these [2:50] people? [2:51] Actually, it's like this: when I first [2:53] started in the military, I flew for a [2:55] bit, right? I was a soldier. After I [2:58] returned to Chengdu, I quickly started [3:00] growing my hair long like them, then I [3:02] met He Duoling, that group of painters, [3:04] as well as musicians like He Juntian, [3:06] and then I entered the art scene. Later [3:10] , I saw a photo of a poet, the American [3:12] poet Ezra Pound. After I saw that photo [3:15] , the old man wearing a black hat... [3:18] Wearing a robe, carrying a cane, [3:20] walking on a small bridge in Venice, he [3:22] said, "I don't want to work anymore, [3:24] it's all futile," something like that. [3:26] Something along those lines. When I saw [3:29] that photo and the words below it, it [3:31] felt like I was shoved against a wall. [3:33] I suddenly had an idea; I said to [3:35] myself, I know what I want to do now. I [3:39] felt that Chinese literary artists [3:41] deserved photos like that—photos that [3:43] moved me and would move others—so [3:44] that thought came to me, and I went and [3:46] did it. [3:50] He essentially used these [3:51] black-and-white photos to document this [3:53] circle of people at the time. There's [3:59] one photo you should show everyone; you [4:00] could look at it and title it "Time is [4:02] a Butcher's Knife." Ah, back in the [4:06] Navy Air Force days. [4:08] Yes, I was 19 back then. Our first [4:11] camera in life, a Seagull 135. The back [4:14] door had to be pried open. [4:17] Right, you should teach us how to take [4:19] good photos of a girlfriend or [4:20] boyfriend, to make them look as good as [4:22] yours. [4:23] Oh my. I think a lot of people today [4:27] take great photos, but I'm still not [4:29] used to those beauty filters. I feel [4:33] like many people live in that kind of [4:35] aesthetic; you see photos that all [4:37] follow the same pattern—spotless, [4:39] perfectly smooth. It’s hard to find [4:44] any flaws, and while I know I’m not [4:46] that young anymore, it’s just not [4:48] realistic because those days were [4:49] decades ago. [4:53] No need to explain. No, you don't have [4:55] to; you haven't done anything wrong to [4:57] anyone. [4:58] Is that okay? [4:59] Still very handsome, or are you talking [5:01] about it from the perspective of [5:02] someone like Yijun? [5:03] It's excellent; that photo has the feel [5:05] of a movie star. [5:06] He means, how is it now? [5:08] You're still complimenting the photo, [5:10] see, you're hurting his feelings. [5:13] What I care about—because what [5:15] Teacher Xiao meant just now—is that [5:17] people using filters today are about [5:18] appearances, but you are actually [5:20] concerned with the mental state behind [5:22] it. How did you cover it so well? [5:24] Right, I’ve had private conversations [5:26] with Teacher Xiao. From the 80s and 90s [5:29] to today, have you realized how much [5:31] the act of photography has changed? For [5:36] example, back then with 135 film, [5:38] getting a roll was not easy, so every [5:41] single shot really counted. [5:43] Yeah, that's right, getting to 36 or 37 [5:46] shots made us so happy. Exactly, [5:48] sometimes you'd even force the winder [5:50] to squeeze out one more, right? But now [5:53] ... [5:54] The photos you see now on Instagram or [5:56] similar platforms, I feel they are [5:58] often more about innovation in form. [6:01] It’s true that there are influencers [6:03] who suddenly come up with something, [6:04] and it’s all about the form. Look, [6:08] for instance, someone suddenly starts a [6:10] trend where their girlfriend is leading [6:12] them by the hand, or an influencer [6:14] always finds these strange backgrounds [6:16] —like places in the Louvre you're not [6:18] even supposed to be—or suddenly using [6:19] a vegetable to make it look like an [6:21] animal. It’s all formal innovation, [6:25] which greatly stimulates your senses— [6:27] constantly new, constantly fresh—but [6:29] the time you spend on them is very [6:31] short, just a second or two. But in the [6:34] era of Cartier-Bresson or Marc Riboud, [6:36] I remember one of them said that to be [6:38] a good photographer, you first need a [6:40] good pair of shoes. You have to walk, [6:43] keep walking, and keep delving deep [6:45] into every place. Just like Mark Riboud [6:49] in Shenzhen in 1994, I would accompany [6:51] him, getting up early with the camera, [6:53] wandering around the city. It was 1994, [6:59] exactly when China’s reform and [7:01] opening-up was really starting to gain [7:03] momentum. [7:05] After Deng Xiaoping’s Southern Tour. [7:06] Yes, exactly. That was the time. You [7:10] could see the city, Shenzhen, brimming [7:12] with vitality, though many places were [7:14] still just dirt and construction sites. [7:19] Once, when we reached a compound in [7:21] Shenzhen where he was visiting a friend [7:23] , I suggested he could put the camera [7:25] down for a while, but he said there was [7:26] no need. He always felt that [7:32] photography meant constantly carrying [7:34] the camera, with eyes always observing. [7:37] At every single moment. [7:39] The time and effort he invested were [7:41] much higher. [7:42] And that’s why those photos are even [7:44] more enduring. I also wonder if [7:46] photographers back then had a certain [7:47] privilege. You could photograph people [7:51] on the street, and since they didn’t [7:52] have cameras themselves, they didn't [7:54] really mind. Nowadays, everyone has a [7:58] phone, and people are much more [7:59] sensitive about being photographed. If [8:02] someone points a phone at you, you’d [8:04] ask, "Why are you filming me?" I used [8:08] to love street photography myself, [8:10] influenced by Cartier-Bresson and the [8:11] concept of the "decisive moment." [8:15] You’d see someone and just want to [8:17] take their picture, and they wouldn’t [8:18] necessarily have much of a reaction. [8:21] But now... [8:22] I don’t think I could just photograph [8:23] people on the street anymore; everyone [8:25] is so sensitive about the possibility [8:27] of being recorded. [8:30] Exactly, especially in a place like [8:32] France that values photography; people [8:34] really don’t like a stranger pointing [8:36] a camera at them. It makes them [8:40] uncomfortable. [8:42] Yet, they’re all taking selfies. [8:44] Right, exactly, no need to... [8:46] It’s an endless irony, isn't it? Yes. [8:49] I often take photos with my phone too, [8:51] actually. [8:52] Today’s phones are getting better and [8:54] better. And because of this era of [8:57] smartphones, I’ve had a recent [8:58] realization. Take online shopping, for [9:01] instance; people spend all day on it. [9:04] If you have a few free minutes, I’ve [9:05] found it’s so easy to get addicted. [9:07] You just get sucked in. You could say [9:10] our country has made huge progress in [9:11] this area; I never realized life could [9:13] be this convenient. Some people say [9:16] that online shopping leads to fakes, [9:18] but I’ve been quite lucky. I feel [9:23] that never before have we enjoyed such [9:24] convenience; seven-day returns for no [9:26] reason, and it's at your door in eight [9:28] hours. Even if you have to pay return [9:33] shipping, you can still return it [9:34] easily. Oh, for a few days, I really [9:39] understood the joy of those shopaholics [9:41] . [9:44] But later, I realized that this really [9:46] won't do. I found that I couldn't do [9:49] anything else because my whole day was [9:51] spent on it. I feel like I don't need [9:54] so many choices, you know? It starts by [9:58] figuring out exactly what price range [10:00] you want and what style you like, then [10:02] it lists countless similar items from [10:03] all over the country for you. And in [10:08] the end, you realize that when they [10:09] serve you down to the finest detail and [10:11] provide such convenience, [10:14] They control you. [10:16] Yes, thinking back, didn't I send you [10:18] those goldfish the other day? That same [10:22] day, I was swimming in the sea, inside [10:24] the giant tent. I had a very profound [10:27] feeling; when you are lying in that sea [10:30] , all your body possesses is your eyes, [10:32] your eyes and that cap, a swimming cap. [10:35] And a pair of swim trunks, you have [10:37] nothing else. But when you are in the [10:39] sea, you feel that at that very moment, [10:41] you don't need anything at all. [10:43] Hmm. [10:45] It’s just you, your physical body and [10:47] your soul, at one with heaven and earth [10:49] , with the sea, and with the fish you [10:51] imagine. But once you go ashore and [10:56] open your phone, it’s so easy to see [10:58] food, daily goods, and everything else; [11:00] looking at them just stirs up your [11:02] desires. [11:05] When things become too convenient, your [11:07] life gets filled with things you didn't [11:09] originally need, because your desires [11:10] are being satisfied too quickly. I had [11:14] a friend tell me recently that there's [11:16] a popular trend now, something like a " [11:18] no-buy" plan for a year. [11:21] Right, exactly, they just don't buy [11:23] anything for a year—except for [11:25] absolute essentials like food and drink [11:27] . So, how do they get by? For example, [11:30] if I suddenly find I need something and [11:32] I don't have it, what do I do then? [11:34] Don't buy anything; try to make do with [11:36] what you already have. You need to [11:37] spark your creativity: "How can I [11:39] figure this out? How can I get hold of [11:41] this?" So, this is what they call [11:43] minimalism—that kind of lifestyle. [11:45] It’s not just simple; it’s not mere [11:47] simplicity, it’s about the extreme. [11:48] You have to use everything, all your [11:50] resources, to the absolute extreme. [11:53] That is what they call minimalism. [11:55] When I was a kid, my brother told me, " [11:57] Before you buy something, think twice [11:59] about whether you can do without it." [12:01] If you can do without it, don't buy it. [12:03] That was because we had no money. That [12:06] philosophy left a deep impression on me [12:08] back then, though now I feel quite [12:10] guilty; I don't think like that anymore [12:12] , do I? That is the minimalism [12:14] perspective. [12:17] The "less is more" concept—but do you [12:19] feel that even at home, we're too busy? [12:26] I can be in a meeting, editing a video, [12:28] and online shopping for discounted [12:30] goods all at the same time, you know? [12:35] Oh, and eventually, I realized our [12:37] doorbell is constantly ringing— [12:39] ding-dong, ding-dong. I say our [12:42] country's commerce is just too [12:43] prosperous, the speed is dazzling. I [12:46] feel that today, what one person can do [12:48] in a day is so much more than people 20 [12:50] years ago. You are simultaneously [12:54] processing so much information, you [12:55] know everything, simply because this [12:57] technology provides that possibility, [12:59] and you can't help but use it. You [13:02] can't help but use it. [13:04] What was I like in the past? I would be [13:07] out busy all day. I'd come home, sit on [13:09] the sofa, and want to rest for a while. [13:12] Now, I can spend all Sunday without [13:13] leaving the house. By evening, I ask [13:16] myself if I can just rest for a second. [13:21] In reality, I’ve trapped myself in [13:23] this rhythm because of my phone and [13:25] social media. [13:27] This is a classic case of what Marx [13:29] called alienation. It was meant to make [13:33] things convenient for you, but it’s [13:35] become too convenient, leading to a [13:36] decline in your capabilities, an [13:38] increase in your needs, and a rise in [13:40] your greed. Do you know what kind of " [13:43] illness" I’ve developed? [13:45] Hmm. [13:46] Going to the bathroom. If my phone [13:49] isn't with me. I can't get things done. [13:51] I can't go. [13:52] Exactly. This habit exists because [13:56] that’s the only time one is sitting [13:57] there and can calmly look at a phone. [14:01] It used to be for books or magazines, [14:03] so having a phone during that time has [14:05] created this psychological dependency. [14:08] I actually don't need to look at it for [14:10] that long, I could just not look, but [14:12] when that thing isn't there, the extent [14:14] of its influence and how it persecutes [14:16] me—do you have any idea? [14:17] You have to make sure your autonomic [14:19] nervous system stays steady. You just [14:22] said you can get more done at home now [14:23] than people used to, but I actually [14:25] think it's much less, because you used [14:27] to be able to focus on one thing and [14:28] get it finished. I find that I start so [14:32] many things now that I can't finish; [14:34] for example, how long has it been since [14:36] you finished reading a book, or you [14:37] start by wanting to look something up [14:39] this morning, get suddenly distracted, [14:41] don't know where you ended up, and then [14:43] come back. Actually, the human brain [14:47] likes being interrupted; some say why [14:49] people are obsessed with phones, [14:50] because the network constantly gives [14:52] you new interruptions, creating [14:54] excitement in our prefrontal cortex— [14:56] humans love being distracted like this. [15:00] But if it goes on like this, I keep [15:02] thinking, when my day ends, if I look [15:04] at myself as an outsider, just spending [15:06] time like that, busy, busy, busy with [15:08] completely irrelevant things, I think I [15:11] would become some kind of caricature. [15:14] Your focus is definitely scattered. By [15:16] the classic definition of achievement, [15:18] your accomplishments must be poor, and [15:20] your life must be wasted. [15:23] Secondly, all the things you do are [15:25] carefully researched by others to [15:27] perfectly align with human nature. [15:31] Everything you do, what this phone [15:33] provides you, must be what fits you [15:34] best. If it didn't fit human nature, [15:38] they would have made the screen bigger [15:39] or smaller long ago. Why is it this [15:42] size? Why does it operate this way? [15:44] These big companies are always studying [15:46] human traits, and many of these traits [15:48] are weaknesses that are impossible to [15:50] resist. All we can do here is, well, [15:53] it's so convenient, you have so many [15:55] phones, but how do we continue to use [15:57] artistic methods to take photos? That [16:01] is the human ability to resist within [16:03] this trend. Hmm. [16:06] Technology affects productivity and [16:08] production relations. I say technology [16:13] is the greatest productive force; once [16:15] it's out, as long as it's popular [16:17] worldwide, how do you put it— [16:21] Those who follow it prosper, those who [16:23] resist it perish. [16:26] Of course, some people might say I [16:28] don't, but that's not the norm, right? [16:33] But that doesn't stop people from using [16:35] ordinary cameras to take artistic [16:36] photos. It doesn’t stop someone from [16:40] holding their phone all day long as if [16:42] inseparable, while their mind is still [16:44] pondering other issues. So I think the [16:46] only way we can act is to resist this [16:48] kind of photography; how to shoot it, [16:50] this kind of photo is like writing a [16:52] novel. Taking a photo of someone in an [16:54] instant is really about capturing their [16:56] essence. Or rather, capturing their [16:59] typical character. In other words, you [17:02] have to know this person, know what [17:03] kind of person Jia Pingwa is. That’s [17:07] why just now, as you were speaking, my [17:09] question was: if a master photographer [17:11] doesn't know these people, how do they [17:13] capture them? By relying on intuition [17:15] to capture a person's instant? [17:18] For example, regarding Shi Tiesheng's [17:20] ethics, I actually think Shi Tiesheng [17:22] is precisely a man with a very strong [17:24] inner self. In fact, his body is very [17:28] limited, but his heart is very full. He [17:31] asked me to find him some photos, for [17:33] instance, Lewis running, or Callas, or [17:36] Einstein, and so on. Actually, I think [17:40] his type, his eyes, his heart are very, [17:43] very, very open; I feel these things [17:45] can all be reflected in his expressions [17:47] , his face, and his limited body. If a [17:53] photographer is sensitive, even if they [17:55] just sit quietly and watch him for a [17:56] few seconds, perhaps they can receive [17:58] such a transmission of information. [18:02] Actually, there is a method—why were [18:04] they able to take these photos back [18:06] then? It’s that they made friends [18:08] with them and stayed with them for a [18:09] long time. [18:10] Yes, actually, to take these types of [18:12] photos, I would accompany him to buy [18:14] groceries; in Jin'an, I went with him [18:16] to buy groceries. Just walked in to see [18:18] him, and he said, "Xiao, don't go [18:20] around tricking those young girls into [18:22] marrying you." What? " [18:23] Don't go around tricking those young [18:25] girls into marrying you," he actually [18:27] ... [18:27] Why would he say that? [18:28] He just felt... [18:29] He already saw that he had the motive [18:31] to trick them. [18:33] It’s similar to how he didn't treat [18:35] you as a reporter, as someone here just [18:37] to pose for a photo; look, when I [18:39] filmed Zhang Yimou for "Raise the Red [18:41] Lantern," we spent half a year together [18:43] , day and night. [18:45] Spent half a year just to get the [18:47] photos. [18:47] Yeah, you really have to spend the time [18:49] . Hey, more and less; sometimes to get [18:52] a single photo, you might have to wait [18:55] ... [18:55] Wait for a very long time. Minimalism [18:57] is actually extreme complexity. [18:59] Right. [19:00] You can truly bring out something... [19:02] Hmm. [19:02] Less is more. That’s their philosophy [19:04] . It’s his...his, his belief, his [19:07] creed. Because he studied...because he [19:09] studied Zen Buddhism. He was just [19:12] sitting at his place, and because he [19:13] didn’t like how the sofa looked, he [19:15] sat on a cushion instead, with a floor [19:17] lamp nearby. I have a photo of that; he [19:21] really believes in living in the moment [19:23] . [19:24] I’m wondering if that’s because the [19:26] simplicity represents a kind of [19:27] precision. [19:28] Right. [19:28] It’s like you’ve found that one [19:30] thing. [19:30] The most essential thing that requires [19:32] nothing else, for example— [19:34] Like— [19:34] Like Jiang Wen, for instance, in this [19:36] photo. This photo, look at him. I’ve [19:40] seen his magazine cover photos too, but [19:42] this one feels like it has absolutely [19:44] no pretense. [19:46] Right. [19:47] No unnecessary extras. [19:49] That was right after he finished his [19:50] debut film, "In the Heat of the Sun." [19:52] On the roof of his studio. As the old [19:56] saying goes, it should be simple yet [19:58] rich, plain yet profound. How does it [20:01] go? It’s about achieving simplicity [20:05] after experiencing great complexity. [20:09] Only then is it a work of art. You know [20:12] , Ah Cheng, he has this way of talking [20:14] —making something sound profound is a [20:16] skill, right? But taking something very [20:19] profound— [20:20] And explaining it— [20:21] Explaining it in a way that’s [20:22] eye-opening, that’s an even greater [20:24] skill. He talks about things we often [20:27] overlook, like minimalism or Bauhaus. [20:32] Many are devotees of Bauhaus, thinking [20:34] these lines are everything. But he [20:40] offers a new dimension to consider: [20:42] after the Industrial Revolution, what [20:44] we perceive as "high-end" minimalism [20:46] was actually driven by cost-cutting. [20:53] You have to look at the context, like [20:54] how he mentions that after World War I, [20:57] Germany was the defeated nation. [21:00] And the reparations were— [21:02] They were brutal. First, the economy [21:06] was in shambles, and second, what did [21:08] those minimalist lines actually [21:10] represent? Industrial production. That [21:13] was around the time of the first [21:15] industrial revolution, the steam engine [21:17] . The invention of the steam engine [21:19] meant you could just take a look. Press [21:21] a mold, and suddenly you could produce [21:23] a thousand identical pieces. Styles [21:27] with heavy ornamentation, like Baroque [21:29] or Rococo—think about the [21:30] construction costs; they would be [21:32] unimaginable, right? After the first [21:37] industrial revolution, many factors led [21:40] to, say, a building—like those square [21:42] , boxy ones—what do you call that? [21:46] Long live the square! We study that [21:49] shape now and always find it profound. [21:53] What is it exactly? Of course it is, [21:56] but on the other hand, everything is [21:58] also a very natural evolution. You see, [22:03] this aesthetic emerged, which itself [22:05] implies mass replicability, industrial [22:07] production, and being molded all at [22:09] once. Take architecture, for example; [22:13] that's the composition. So you see, [22:16] this minimalism might also have such a [22:18] factor behind it. [22:20] Perhaps it went through a complex [22:22] process, just like we are now. After [22:25] these things that satisfy us so easily [22:27] appeared, people started wondering if [22:29] there could be another way of life. [22:32] Actually, Xiao, do you think your [22:35] current state of life, or the state of [22:37] life of those you observe and [22:39] photograph, differs from the 80s or 90s [22:41] ? [22:42] Yes, it's truly different. [22:44] Hmm. [22:44] It really comes down to being busy, [22:46] just like the mention of WeChat Moments [22:48] earlier. I can go ten days without [22:50] checking my Moments. But afterwards, I [22:52] feel like I'm being quite unkind. Why? [22:54] Because when I post something, so many [22:56] people comment, yet I don't look at [22:58] theirs. I feel that if you were to [23:01] check it every day, you really wouldn't [23:03] have enough time. [23:06] It's a nuisance. Can you photograph [23:11] them the same way now? Or do you feel [23:13] that their... [23:13] Has their mental outlook changed [23:15] significantly? [23:16] Actually, not everyone is the same. But [23:22] take Jiang for example; I met him in [23:24] Guiyang the year before last, and he [23:26] was still incredibly passionate about [23:28] what he wanted to film next, and his [23:30] understanding of film and life. I think [23:36] he...he writes, he likes using a brush [23:38] pen and such. Later, I discovered that [23:43] even when this group is no longer as [23:45] young as they once were, many still [23:47] hold onto certain things, like Dai [23:49] Jinhua, who is involved in film [23:50] criticism. [23:54] A long time ago, I took a candid photo [23:56] of her at the Film Academy. Later, the [23:58] day before yesterday, I went to Peking [24:00] University, and she had returned there. [24:04] I think her spirit has grown even [24:05] larger. That intellectual air, that [24:09] presence and bearing. She has gained [24:13] weight and doesn't walk as lightly as [24:15] she used to, but you can see that she [24:17] is a great professor. [24:21] She cares deeply about many women's [24:23] issues, film themes, and the issues of [24:25] diverse film subjects. [24:27] Her presence is even stronger. Yes, [24:29] really, really amazing. I said, when I [24:32] filmed your back, I felt you were [24:34] constantly using your own way to fight [24:36] against some kind of force. What were [24:39] you doing? Helping those women in the [24:41] films, their reasoning. [24:44] I feel now that this mentality needs to [24:46] have a foundation. It needs to have [24:48] roots. It means that, you see, some [24:50] people have a very strong aura; this [24:52] energy needs to be orderly. A teacher [24:55] told me the other day, "You see that [24:57] magnet? Look at the magnetic field [24:59] lines. You scatter a bunch of iron [25:01] nails here, and they follow those lines [25:04] —it's orderly." [25:05] Orderly. That is to say, this energy [25:07] must be orderly. For example, even if [25:10] someone is a so-called conservative [25:12] person. I am like what we said today, [25:15] not daring to be careless; I hold on [25:17] firmly to one thing without letting go, [25:19] I set one path, and in the end, I can [25:21] accomplish something. [25:24] Exactly. [25:26] Right, but on the other hand, what does [25:27] it mean to lose one's composure? It [25:32] means if you take in too many things, [25:34] every path does indeed seem to have [25:36] potential, but in that way, your energy [25:38] cannot be focused. You are scattered [25:44] all day long; it seems you finish many [25:46] things every day, dealing with many [25:48] aspects, but you don't seem to see any [25:50] cumulative, sustainable progress or [25:52] focus. [25:54] Just focus. [25:55] Focus on one thing. [25:58] As for this generation, not long ago a [26:00] reporter asked me, especially regarding [26:03] contemporary literature, their question [26:05] was: why are writers like Mo Yan, Shi [26:08] Tiesheng, and A Cheng still considered [26:10] mainstream contemporary writers? To put [26:15] it simply. They haven't been outdated [26:17] for 40 years; this didn't happen in the [26:19] past. In Lu Xun's era, it was only ten [26:22] or twenty years. My simple summary is [26:28] that they haven't changed, but their [26:30] relationship with society has changed; [26:32] they have gone from pioneers to [26:34] guardians. In the past 40 years, [26:40] society has changed tremendously— [26:42] technology, national strength, and [26:44] readers have all changed. The entire [26:47] literary ecology has changed [26:49] drastically, with the internet and so [26:51] on. As Wentao said, take Shi Tiesheng, [26:54] he just stuck to his one path, right? [26:59] He had to write about the feeling of [27:00] being hungry at twelve or thirteen; [27:02] that was the driving force of his [27:04] creation. So even though the external [27:09] environment changed—back in the 80s, [27:11] during those "sunny days," they were [27:13] the vanguard of social thought [27:15] liberation. [27:17] Uh-huh. [27:18] Now, they are, in a sense, the cultural [27:21] guardians of the Reform and Opening-up. [27:24] So why is 40 years just a blink of an [27:26] eye? It's because there have actually [27:29] been huge changes. Many people move [27:33] with the times, but I think the group [27:34] you filmed has stayed true to their [27:36] original intentions. [27:38] That's an interesting way to put it. [27:39] Focus. [27:40] Yes. [27:41] Focusing on one thing. [27:42] You just sit at home looking at those [27:44] stones; looking at those stones is a [27:46] form of discipline. Wait, no. Take me [27:49] for example, playing with this " [27:51] shop-till-you-drop" thing. I got hooked [27:54] for a few days, and I imagine some [27:56] people just can't break free. Because [27:58] you know it's really cheap; I [28:00] discovered that for ten yuan...... [28:01] you get a sense of satisfaction. This [28:03] online shopping, now even 15 or 10 yuan [28:06] items, they can all ship them to you. A [28:08] 20-yuan small ashtray can also be fun [28:11] to play with, right? It means you can [28:13] find treasures even among very cheap [28:15] things. It's like "snapping up bargains [28:18] " in the antique world; sometimes a [28:20] very cheap item...... [28:23] can be a great find, as long as you [28:25] have good taste, an eye for quality, [28:27] compare different shops, and have the [28:29] seven-day no-questions-asked return [28:31] policy. It's a kind of pleasure. But [28:35] I've realized we really need to be wary [28:36] of entering this era of the game, where [28:38] the cost is very low. You think it's [28:42] very cheap, that if I buy the wrong [28:44] thing, it doesn't matter and I'm not [28:46] losing any time, but have you noticed [28:48] now? How many 24-hour periods do you [28:51] have in your life? [28:53] Mm. [28:55] Your time and your attention are worth [28:57] much more than the 10 yuan you spend to [28:58] buy something. [29:01] Right. [29:02] It's much more expensive—this price [29:04] is something we really need to be [29:06] vigilant about. [29:10] There's another point: you have to [29:11] think about how this convenience is [29:13] built on the backs of delivery riders, [29:15] on the current cheap labor. This won't [29:19] last forever. [29:20] Right. [29:21] This is just a special stage of social [29:22] development. They zoom over to deliver [29:25] it to you, but you know that your [29:26] convenience comes at the cost of these [29:28] motorcycles filling the streets. [29:30] Right. [29:31] While I was in quarantine, I ordered a [29:33] box of fresh meat mooncakes, and they [29:35] were delivered to the wrong place. They [29:37] were sent to the wrong place, to [29:38] another shop. I called the shop owner, [29:42] and he said, "Fine, no problem, I'll [29:44] tell the delivery rider to re-deliver [29:46] it." The delivery rider called me, [29:49] crying. Why? Because they were going to [29:51] make him pay for it. Mm. [29:52] You know, this box cost over 80 yuan. I [29:55] figure he worked half a day for nothing [29:56] . [29:57] Later I said, "Forget it, forget it, [29:59] just drop it." You know, so to say [30:03] these things aren't taken for granted [30:04] —it won't go on like this forever. [30:07] Exactly, Mr. Xu, you put that perfectly [30:10] ! Like what I just said, for example, [30:12] this concept of modern art. Once on the [30:16] streets of New York, I saw, I forgot [30:18] those few English words, what "popular, [30:20] " what "cheap," it had several concepts [30:22] , just like we said, that it is cheap. [30:26] Right, popular. [30:28] For the masses, to some extent, it [30:29] means making it affordable for everyone [30:31] . [30:33] With the advancement of technology, the [30:36] price is getting cheaper, yes. [30:40] And just as you said, I felt at the [30:42] time that logistics, because of the [30:44] volume, thinned out the costs [30:45] significantly, right? But I don't know [30:50] economics; I just feel something is off [30:52] , that it must always be the most [30:53] cost-effective. University professors [30:59] complain, "younger, better." Meaning [31:03] looking for young teachers, that is, [31:05] cheap and young ones. Better ones. You [31:11] know, in this way, it creates a [31:13] competition that is unstoppable; the [31:15] world we are facing, you really can't [31:17] outcalculate it. [31:22] I've noticed that in the past, look, in [31:24] the 80s, at the beginning of the Reform [31:26] and Opening-up, the talk was about poor [31:28] service attitude. Feeling the need to [31:31] improve service, right? Back then, [31:34] didn't stores post signs saying "this [31:36] shop does not beat or scold customers," [31:38] right? But today, we can feel that the [31:40] commercial service provided is too good [31:42] , at least from what I've encountered, [31:44] because there is a rating mechanism. I [31:47] remember decades ago we often [31:49] encountered rude service staff, but now [31:50] I find I encounter more, though there [31:52] are still bad ones, what I feel more is [31:54] that they are afraid you might have [31:56] complaints, afraid you won't give them [31:58] five stars, and then they ask, "Do you [32:00] think my service just now was okay?"" [32:03] Okay, then please give me a five-star [32:05] rating after you hang up," you see, it [32:07] can be said that this competition is so [32:09] precise, and sometimes you say it's [32:11] funny, like when you order a book. Then [32:15] , boom, on your phone, "your book has [32:17] arrived at Hangzhou Railway Station," I [32:19] feel sometimes, you know, I feel like [32:21] I've reached Hangzhou Railway Station, [32:23] you know? You just feel, from then on, [32:27] the goods have reached where, they draw [32:29] a route map, you know? This thing is [32:32] just like playing a video game. Think [32:35] about it, even if I bought something [32:37] for just 20 yuan, you end up imagining [32:39] it traveling from Hangzhou to a [32:41] distribution center in Tianjin, then to [32:43] some delivery person’s hands, then— [32:45] whoosh—now it’s at a large depot in [32:47] Beijing, and you think, "Oh, it's in [32:49] Beijing, it’ll be here soon," and [32:51] they even call you in the meantime, you [32:53] know? You can't help but track this [32:56] whole process. But I felt like I was in [32:58] a trance for a few days. I need to know [33:01] all this. Why do you need to know all [33:03] this, do you know? You just get [33:04] completely sucked in. Their service is [33:07] indeed better. It’s actually more [33:11] attentive to you, but now you have to [33:13] be wary—how much of your time have [33:15] you spent on this? Your life—I should [33:19] have been pondering original topics, [33:21] but my life just wasted away between [33:23] Tianjin and Beijing. [33:26] Right, right, right. Oh, you—just [33:29] think about it, of course it’s good [33:31] for us consumers that they do this, it [33:33] should be praised. But now it’s the [33:36] consumer’s turn; you need to have [33:38] full self-discipline. Your life—isn't [33:40] it, you're so complicated, don't you [33:42] think you’re living too complicatedly [33:44] ? It’s that you have to track every [33:47] logistics step until it gets to you; [33:49] they display it for you, and you [33:50] can’t bear not to look at what I [33:52] bought. [33:53] Especially when the phone on the side [33:55] goes "ding." [33:56] So I just... [33:57] You could turn off the notifications. [33:58] I have many thoughts from this. For [34:01] example, Professor Xu, like your books, [34:04] I now think, "Why this bellyband?" [34:07] Why must you have a bellyband? [34:09] Right, because of Liang Wendao. [34:13] Exactly, this bellyband on the outside [34:15] —you see, the service is arguably [34:17] better, but in reality, do you ever [34:19] think, is it necessary? Cutting down [34:23] forests, wasting wood, wasting [34:24] resources, and then it all just gets [34:26] thrown away, including all those [34:28] express deliveries—they all have [34:30] packaging. Uh, right, this kind of [34:33] packaging isn't... [34:34] This packaging—inside it’s plastic, [34:36] and then outside, to prevent it from [34:37] getting crushed, there’s a slightly [34:39] larger paper thing, or they even nail [34:41] it into a wooden crate for me. I [34:43] receive packages all day, you have to [34:45] bang around for a long time; even for [34:47] something worth a few yuan, there’s [34:49] packaging. It all goes into the trash. [34:52] So... [34:52] Right, I think... [34:53] So the shipping industry should promote [34:55] reduction. [34:57] Right, I’m a bit skeptical now, [34:58] wondering if this is sustainable—can [35:00] it really just keep going like this? [35:04] I personally feel that this aspect of [35:06] manual delivery is unsustainable. Very [35:10] soon, as the standard of living for [35:12] these couriers rises and their economic [35:14] needs increase, they won't want to keep [35:16] doing this. Such low-skilled manual [35:21] work, I believe that at a certain stage [35:23] , they will have to find other ways, [35:25] perhaps robots will take over and [35:26] deliver to your door. In information [35:30] theory, there is a saying that the [35:32] expression of information should not [35:34] exceed the information itself. If you [35:38] translate that into our lives, if our [35:40] time is this collection of information, [35:42] for example, when you order a 20-dollar [35:44] item. The effort you spend expressing [35:48] it, your time, your attention, its [35:50] packaging—all these things, which we [35:52] call the expression of information, [35:54] exceed the information itself. Right. [35:57] That is truly the case. [35:59] It’s like how the media now contains [36:01] more than the information it provides. [36:04] This media. [36:05] It’s more than the actual substance [36:07] it provides. [36:09] Painstakingly, you open the news every [36:11] day, it's all "100,000 Whys," someone [36:13] jumped off a building, someone [36:15] committed suicide, it’s all like a [36:17] guessing game, just to get our views. [36:21] To put it nicely, it attracts our [36:22] interest to make us click; to put it [36:24] bluntly, it's problematic. It can’t [36:27] just say things properly, there’s no [36:29] way around this personality competition [36:31] . I have two points, but I want to say [36:34] something good about big data. The good [36:37] thing is music programs. Spotify, for [36:39] instance. What is its benefit? [36:45] Once you subscribe, it reorganizes the [36:47] music for your day based on your [36:49] previous choices. Because when I used [36:53] to buy CDs, I would have this issue: [36:55] the first track is good, the second one [36:57] is bad, right? After two tracks it gets [37:01] fast, too fast, my heart can't take it, [37:03] so I often had to listen through once [37:05] first, but now that's gone. Because it [37:11] knows what I love to listen to, and it [37:13] collects all that music, giving me [37:15] variety from Monday to Saturday, and [37:17] when you look at the recipe, 450,000 or [37:19] 680,000 people have already chosen it [37:21] worldwide, so it’s very reliable. So [37:27] now, I’ve gotten to the point where I [37:28] think all the music in the world is [37:30] what I love to hear. Actually, most of [37:32] it isn't. That’s the benefit, but the [37:36] downside is, I don't know if you have [37:37] this problem too. I think that when [37:42] everyone holds their phone—as Marx [37:44] said, a person's character is the sum [37:46] of their social relations—we [37:47] concentrate our social relations on a [37:49] single screen through our phones, right [37:51] ? The thousands of people you know are [37:55] all right here. You can communicate via [37:58] voice and image anytime, anywhere, and [38:00] meet people from across the globe. But [38:02] people's hearts haven't really become [38:04] easier to connect with, have they? Do [38:06] you think it's easy to connect with [38:07] people's hearts? [38:08] What do you think, Professor Xiao? [38:10] I also don't think I have depression, [38:12] but later on, I just felt that I really [38:14] wanted to remain myself. That quiet [38:17] place deep within my heart. [38:20] But with your relatives and friends, [38:22] have you grown closer to them through [38:23] your phone? [38:25] I think so. For example, my brother's [38:27] granddaughter—I don't have children [38:29] —she's over two years old and says, " [38:31] I'll give you a massage." It's just one [38:33] voice. Yes, her mom made her say it on [38:37] the phone, and you think, "Wow," she [38:39] drove all the way from Handan back to [38:41] Chengdu, and she expresses, "I'll help [38:43] you with a massage." Right, things like [38:46] that—even though they are fragmented, [38:48] when you hear a little girl who is just [38:50] over two, you still feel it’s quite [38:52] heartwarming. [38:53] The human heart is warm. [38:55] Yes, but I also feel that if there is a [38:57] massive amount of information, do you [38:59] actually have the right to avoid it? [39:02] Let me respond to you: right now, on [39:04] one hand, you feel that your social [39:06] life has increased. You are socializing [39:09] inside your room every day. But on the [39:11] other hand, you are locked in your own [39:13] ...the more closely you message people, [39:15] the lonelier you become. This era is [39:18] truly progressive, and I also sing the [39:20] praises of this era. If you asked me to [39:23] go back to the 80s or 90s now, I [39:25] wouldn't want to go back, because human [39:27] capabilities are truly improving. You [39:31] know, through this social media now, we [39:33] can do things that were unthinkable in [39:34] the past. For example, when I produce a [39:38] show, we can have meetings anytime; a [39:40] person can edit footage right on their [39:41] phone, so I can't even imagine how you [39:43] could possibly do that without an [39:45] editing suite. Now, everyone is at home [39:47] , tapping away on their videos from [39:49] different directions; if you need to [39:51] make changes or finish something on [39:53] time, you can, and that includes family [39:55] bonds, right? Like, look at me, my [39:57] father, my older brother, and my [39:58] younger brother; we are in several [40:00] different places, and when a big family [40:03] event happens, boom, we jump on a video [40:05] call. So, regarding my father, you can [40:09] see in him that he finds things [40:10] miraculous, truly miraculous. For [40:15] instance, the other day I took him to [40:17] see a doctor, and if you look through [40:19] an elderly person's eyes, you realize [40:21] how much the world has advanced. He [40:25] asked, "Why does that woman keep [40:27] telling you to turn left, or turn right [40:29] ?" I said, " [40:30] It's navigation.""Where is that woman [40:33] watching you from?""From the sky."" [40:36] Where in the sky?""From a satellite." [40:39] He said, "If it's a satellite, does it [40:41] only watch your car?" I said, "No, it [40:44] sees all cars." He just couldn't fathom [40:47] how this woman could see exactly where [40:48] I was going. [40:49] Turning left, turning right. [40:51] Right? You can imagine, through the [40:53] eyes of an 80-year-old, just how [40:55] magical this world seems. [40:56] A futuristic world. Exactly. For [41:00] example, I'm in Shenzhen now. But he's [41:03] in Beijing. So, how does he eat? I just [41:06] order food delivery for him. He asks, " [41:09] But you're in Shenzhen." I say, "That's [41:11] right." He asks, "Then how does the [41:13] food get delivered to me in Beijing?"" [41:15] It’s not from Shenzhen, you’re [41:16] confusing me, you know?" He says, " [41:18] That’s not worth it. You’d have to [41:20] buy me a lunchbox in Shenzhen and fly [41:23] it over to Beijing." I say, "No need. I [41:25] can just order food for you while I'm [41:27] in Shenzhen.""How is that possible?" He [41:29] just can't wrap his head around it. He [41:31] says, "So, you just use your phone?" I [41:33] say, "Yes." He asks, "Then how does it [41:36] get to my doorstep?" See, from this [41:38] perspective, you can see how much [41:40] humanity has progressed, which is why I [41:42] absolutely praise this era. [41:44] Yes. [41:45] But on the other hand, I feel like [41:46] something is going wrong. Have you ever [41:49] noticed having no appetite after a long [41:51] string of food deliveries? What do you [41:53] mean? [41:54] That's exactly how I am. I want to [41:56] order food, I'm hungry—my stomach is [41:58] clearly hungry—but once it arrives, I [42:00] have no appetite. This is a real [42:02] problem. [42:04] Yes, there is. [42:06] It’s not the same as sitting down at [42:08] a restaurant, right? [42:09] Right. My father says the same thing— [42:11] he’s just not hungry. He doesn't want [42:12] to eat anything. I ask him all day long [42:14] , "What do you want to eat today?"" [42:16] Shall we have braised eggplant, [42:17] red-cooked pork tomorrow, or something [42:19] else the day after?" I’m telling you, [42:21] by talking about my father, you [42:23] understand why things need to be [42:24] simplified. My father isn't living [42:27] happily right now. He's over 80, and [42:29] you have to understand, he just finds [42:31] everything a bother every day. [42:33] Yeah. [42:33] Every morning when he wakes up, I say, [42:35] "Isn't it great for you here?" He just [42:37] frowns tightly. Does he have any [42:39] hobbies? [42:39] It's troublesome. You know, with [42:42] elderly people, as their brain function [42:44] declines and atrophy sets in, we are [42:46] currently able to handle the changes in [42:48] this world—for instance, children can [42:50] handle them better than us. [42:53] Like, they can handle all those bus [42:55] routes. As a middle-aged person, you [42:57] start craving simplicity because you [42:59] can no longer process that much [43:01] information. So, imagine someone one [43:04] generation older, an 80-year-old. He [43:06] might feel—for example, I got him a [43:08] blood glucose monitor, which should be [43:09] more convenient. In the past, you had [43:11] to prick your finger, but now you just [43:13] use a patch. You hold this device up, [43:15] scan it, and your blood sugar level [43:17] pops up. [43:18] There are machines like that. [43:19] Exactly. But for him, [43:22] it's too much. He says, "I don't want [43:24] this. I could measure my blood sugar [43:26] myself when I used to prick my finger." [43:28] "Now, if you aren't home, I have no [43:30] idea how to use this—you just press [43:31] it and..." He feels out of control, [43:33] totally out of control. [43:34] Do you see what I mean? He needs [43:37] simplicity. We gave him something more [43:41] advanced, but his brain can't keep up [43:42] with it. He finds it too troublesome. [43:46] Even eating feels like a hassle to him. [43:48] Like, "Oh, time to eat again," and [43:50] there are several boxes to open. [43:52] It’s supposed to be extremely [43:54] convenient, [43:55] but for an elderly person, just opening [43:57] those lids is a chore. Because even [43:59] opening the boxes [44:00] is difficult for them. With so many [44:03] choices, he eventually says, "Don't [44:05] make me choose.""I don't want to eat [44:07] anything." You see, these procedural [44:10] changes are truly a loss of control for [44:12] them. You know, a while ago, I kept [44:15] telling my parent, "I want to get you a [44:17] new washing machine, one with a dryer." [44:19] And they got angry with me. I thought, [44:20] "Why can't I understand why they won't [44:22] change?" Then a friend told me, "You [44:24] have to buy it while you're home and [44:26] teach them how to use it." He asked why [44:28] ? Because the fear isn't that it's new [44:30] technology; the fear is that when [44:32] you're not there, they won't be able to [44:33] fully control the process. [44:35] Exactly. [44:36] That fear. So, regarding what you just [44:39] said about the pre-made meals—I also [44:41] feel that, for all those take-out meals [44:43] from central kitchens, some people say [44:45] they all taste like "take-out," a kind [44:47] of artificial, processed flavor, as if [44:49] it didn't come from a real home kitchen [44:51] . [44:52] The Wang family that comes from that [44:53] source is not the real Wang family. [44:55] You sense a hint of a digital vibe, but [44:57] I'm also thinking, for instance, I [44:59] recently watched David Hockney, and he [45:01] mentioned how some people think it's [45:02] about photography, while others think [45:04] it's about painting. And then, when [45:07] reproduction came along, the "aura" was [45:10] gone; the mechanical age lacked that [45:12] soul. He said, "I don't think so." He [45:14] said, "I just think the machine is a [45:16] very fun thing." He studied how to use [45:18] the machine to create; he would put a [45:20] piece of paper in over a dozen times, [45:22] letting it respond and interact. The [45:25] things he created were impossible for [45:27] others to replicate, making them works [45:29] of art; photography is the same, using [45:31] that—the iPad. [45:33] Yeah. [45:33] He took many, many shots and collaged [45:35] them. When he views them, they aren't [45:37] photos—not the kind of photos we [45:39] understand as "decisive moments"—I [45:41] treat them as a collage. If I [45:43] photograph your face, I take many, many [45:45] shots and piece them together into one [45:47] face, it’s also art. He’s always [45:49] pondering how he can utilize this [45:51] technology. For example, at his [45:53] advanced age, and then encountering [45:55] COVID, he just started creating art on [45:57] his iPad. I think his spirit is very [45:59] interesting; he doesn't reject [46:01] technology but instead embraces it to [46:03] create something new—that’s the [46:05] right approach. [46:07] It’s like your current feeling, [46:08] through social media, through this [46:10] technology, uh, I can live several [46:12] lives. I feel busy all day long, but [46:17] I’m addicted to it, and I don't find [46:19] it annoying at all. But I have already [46:25] sensed this trend, the trend that asks: [46:27] will there come a day when you return [46:29] to simplicity? I even feel that sooner [46:33] or later, like my father, I will be [46:35] left behind by this era. If things keep [46:40] developing this way, one day we won’t [46:42] be able to keep up, and we will get [46:44] lost in the maze of information, [46:45] totally bewildered. You become [46:49] completely detached from society and [46:51] unable to adapt. Maybe by then, we’ll [46:55] wonder why we made things so [46:56] complicated? [46:58] Regarding Moments—you just mentioned [47:00] whether WeChat brings interpersonal [47:02] relationships closer or pushes them [47:04] further away—I have this observation. [47:07] Sometimes I look—though I rarely post [47:08] —and notice that if someone likes a [47:10] post, you can only see it if you are [47:12] friends with that person, right? And [47:14] you realize, "Oh, so these two people [47:16] actually know each other." [47:18] If these two people, sometimes, in some [47:20] situations, I tell you, it's very easy. [47:23] Right, oh, they know each other, and [47:25] you... [47:25] Oh, so that’s how the sum of social [47:27] relations appears. [47:28] Yeah, and then you think, why do I need [47:30] to know this? [47:32] It's very important. [47:34] Professor Xiao, take this photo for [47:36] example. Right, is there something like [47:39] "seeing the profound through the simple [47:40] "? Because Minimalism, actually, it’s [47:45] an artistic form that they proposed [47:47] back in the 60s. Many people use, how [47:52] should I put it, these abstract lines [47:54] and blocks of color to express and [47:56] observe the world. I like this sense of [48:00] moderation, like medium gray, gray; I [48:02] like richness. That so-called "high-key [48:05] " style—just a small block, then a [48:07] vertical line, and a tiny figure. It [48:10] looks, how should I say, very simple. [48:13] That kind of thing, of course, isn't [48:15] called simple; I have those too, but [48:17] very few. I don’t really pursue [48:19] overly complex things, but later I felt [48:21] that moderation is more interesting. It [48:24] doesn't lean to the extremes; it stays [48:26] in the middle. It's interesting. [48:29] Hey, look, your choice is my choice too [48:31] . I just think in this situation, don't [48:34] go with everything, but don't avoid [48:36] everything either. Just stay in the [48:38] mainstream; the mainstream is where the [48:40] foundation is. Just like you said about [48:42] Moments, I’ve turned mine off, I [48:44] don't look at it anymore, but I still [48:46] keep WeChat. [48:48] Aren't Moments part of WeChat? [48:52] You’re about the same generation as [48:53] my dad. Sometimes, if you don't check [48:56] those Moments, it’s actually quite [48:58] dangerous. What I mean by dangerous is [49:02] that you might miss an important piece [49:03] of information that you didn't see. [49:07] So that’s the troubling part—you [49:08] don't want to miss anything. Of course, [49:11] maybe the Moment you missed would have [49:13] brought you a sudden realization, or [49:15] even made you a millionaire. [49:17] But it could also have been a disaster [49:19] you avoided. [49:20] Right. [49:20] It was meant to be missed. [49:21] Hmm. [49:22] Like the saying "a blessing in disguise [49:24] ." You see the difference between [49:26] middle-aged and older people? Before [49:27] the internet, we might not know what we [49:29] didn't know. Now, you’re just [49:31] terrified that you don't know what [49:32] everyone else knows. [49:33] But in reality, I think it’s hard to [49:35] say. Is what you’re seeing really the [49:38] truth? For example, many young people [49:41] in their 20s now feel they are already [49:43] old. I wonder, why is that? Because [49:47] younger and younger people are being [49:49] seen, like that seven-year-old kid in [49:51] the U.S. doing toy unboxings; he made [49:53] it onto the rich list at seven. Don't [49:57] you feel old then? Don't you feel like [49:59] you've achieved nothing? Because the [50:01] age at which people are being seen is [50:03] getting younger and younger. In the [50:06] past, you really had to reach a certain [50:08] age to be recognized by society, to be [50:10] talked about, or to feel qualified [50:12] enough to say, "I'm visible, I have [50:14] some work to show." Now, it's too easy [50:17] to be seen, so those who aren't seen [50:19] think, "Oh, I'm old, I've achieved [50:21] nothing." But are you really seeing the [50:24] truth? What about all the other [50:26] seven-year-olds you don't see? What is [50:29] their real life like? You don't see [50:31] that. [50:32] You must remain ignorant of some things [50:34] to know more about others. [50:37] That's the conclusion we've come to [50:39] today, living in this crowded era. [50:43] We must choose what to do and what not [50:45] to do. [50:46] What to know. And what not to. [50:49] Exactly, you have to find that balance; [50:51] enjoy the benefits of technology in [50:53] this era, but at the same time, stay [50:55] alert. So, it's like what you said [50:59] about the "middle way." [51:01] It's not minimalism. [51:03] It's not maximalism either. Then what [51:05] is it? It's approaching simplicity. [51:09] Just like our Haitian minimalist soy [51:11] sauce—the simpler it is, the more [51:13] extraordinary it becomes. Each step is [51:16] so precise I could live in a museum. I [51:20] realized this greed makes people [51:21] anxious, thinking they haven't lived. [51:25] You remember that book, don't you? " [51:28] Sapiens," right? [51:29] The author. [51:30] Yuval Harari. [51:34] He spends a lot of time—about four or [51:36] five hours a day—meditating. When [51:42] interviewed, he said without daily [51:44] meditation, he couldn't survive. Why? [51:50] He said, just like you mentioned, only [51:52] meditation can control his greed. His [51:57] greed is also a kind of greed, a greed [51:59] for life experiences. [52:02] He said, especially since I study human [52:04] history, looking back at all the rise [52:06] and fall of nations. He said, "Of [52:08] course I'm greedy. I want to know about [52:12] every tiny thing and incorporate it [52:14] into my theories and my books." He said [52:18] this kind of greed once drove him to [52:20] madness. He said he started meditating [52:24] for an hour, then two, and eventually [52:26] five hours. He said it saved him, so I [52:30] think Wentao, you should either see a [52:32] doctor or try meditating. I’ve tried [52:36] meditation myself, but it’s not [52:37] really for me. Or should we look for [52:39] short-form videos and "smart" content [52:41] instead? I feel like what you both just [52:44] said could be interpreted as [52:45] intellectuals showing off and being [52:47] pretentious. [52:50] But even if I were illiterate, I’d [52:52] still feel that anxiety—I’m greedy [52:54] for life. Honestly, even if you’re [53:00] not reading and just traveling, it can [53:03] become a burden, like you have to see [53:05] enough, which makes life feel chaotic. [53:10] Don’t you think so? Like these [53:13] short-form videos; didn't Wang Shuo say [53:15] he’d mindlessly scroll for ten hours [53:17] at a time? Is that what you call short? [53:23] Some say this era began when Weibo [53:25] limited posts to 140 characters, [53:27] demanding shorter text, and videos just [53:30] keep getting shorter, to the point [53:32] where now... [53:34] 15 seconds, maybe? [53:36] 15 seconds, five seconds—because the [53:38] completion rate for one second is 100 [53:41] percent. Do you know how fast news [53:43] clips are now? You have to pause them [53:45] to read the subtitles; the news segment [53:47] is only three to five seconds long, yet [53:50] the content requires a rewatch. [53:52] Rewatching is even more annoying and [53:54] wastes more time. You have to keep [53:57] pausing it repeatedly just to see what [53:59] the news is about. [54:00] Don't you feel like there’s a sense [54:02] of urgency, like something is burning [54:04] your eyebrows? [54:05] But you know, it’s interesting. [54:07] Recently, I’ve really wanted to watch [54:09] those short dramas; there’s a kind of [54:10] shameful pleasure in it. [54:13] I was watching this "Bossy CEO fell in [54:16] love with me" thing. [54:19] About this "Bossy CEO fell in love with [54:21] me" show—Professor, as a modern [54:23] literature teacher, what do you think? [54:25] The plot is so short, I can’t even [54:27] remember it. [54:29] It's about this middle-aged woman, like [54:31] a housekeeper. The bossy CEO wakes up [54:35] after a night and finds a 45-year-old [54:38] housekeeper lying next to him. Wait, I [54:41] might be mixing it up. I think the [54:44] premise was a 27-year-old rich heiress [54:47] drugging the 27-year-old CEO, and the [54:49] CEO, to protect his virtue, refuses, [54:52] even ordering the housekeeper to throw [54:54] her out or something. And when he woke [54:57] up, he found this 45-year-old nanny [54:59] sitting next to him, and she didn’t [55:01] even want any money or compensation. [55:04] The arrogant CEO fell madly in love [55:05] with him, and after falling in love, he [55:08] brought him home to meet his parents. [55:10] Only then did the CEO’s father [55:11] realize this was the person who seduced [55:14] him when he was young—this is pure [55:15] cringe, I’m telling you. [55:17] Cringe, and then... [55:18] It’s like resurrection, resurrection [55:20] —still cringe. "You seduced my son," [55:22] and then they just keep humiliating him [55:24] , over and over, like slapping him or [55:26] splashing red wine on him. Of course, [55:28] the plot twists immediately at the end, [55:30] where everyone who humiliated him ends [55:32] up breaking down and kneeling, right? [55:35] And then the climax hits: it turns out [55:38] this 45-year-old nanny is actually the [55:40] world's richest person. It actually has [55:43] a slight hint of feminism at the end. [55:47] We should film more progressive short [55:49] dramas, like an arrogant CEO falling [55:51] for a female CEO, or falling for a [55:53] middle-aged, frail uncle. [55:56] Yeah, [55:56] It’s just [55:57] Basically, it’s all just [55:58] Empty, empty, empty. You see, it’s [56:01] very relevant to the current trends. It [56:06] seems like rich people just love to [56:08] play the role of the security guard or [56:10] this uncle, and the reversal is so [56:12] interesting. It starts with a [56:16] construction worker carrying bricks on [56:18] a site. [56:19] And his girlfriend says, "I don't want [56:20] you, I want..." And his girlfriend will [56:22] definitely be in the next episode, [56:24] since it's a one-minute episode format. [56:26] Right, a one-minute episode. [56:29] The next scene is definitely her with a [56:31] wealthy person, and then a car—maybe [56:33] a Mercedes, they don't have the budget [56:35] for more—pulls up. The door opens, [56:41] and the construction worker steps out [56:43] in a tuxedo; I can tell the costume was [56:45] cheap, but the crew acts like it's [56:47] high-end. He says, "I am the chairman [56:51] of the World Richest Club, regret [56:53] kneeling to me!" And then the [56:57] girlfriend who dumped him is just full [56:59] of remorse. I've never seen such a show [57:03] ; I'm curious because I’ve never seen [57:05] one. [57:06] The lighting, the costumes, everything [57:09] is quite rough, extremely rough. [57:11] And the same sets are used repeatedly, [57:13] the same actors used over and over. [57:15] I was just making a suggestion to Youku [57:17] . I said it’s absolutely worth it for [57:20] real artists to take this on and create [57:22] something better; we could totally do [57:24] that. We could make short videos with [57:26] plot twists. [57:28] That’s very difficult. [57:29] It’s not. When people imagine being [57:31] rich, they imagine being a tycoon. [57:34] Because their imagination span is too [57:36] wide and they have no concept of money, [57:38] the numbers they come up with aren't [57:39] accurate. They immediately go for a [57:42] hundred billion, which is a bit much. [57:44] Why not go for a hundred million? That [57:47] would be decent enough, right? As soon [57:49] as they start, a billionaire persona [57:51] comes out. [57:52] What are they looking for? Just that [57:54] sense of gratification. [57:55] Right. [57:56] But why does this little thing need to [57:58] satisfy them at this moment? Just think [57:59] about it. But I feel this sense of [58:01] gratification has always been this way. [58:02] Like when we were kids, I loved—I [58:04] especially loved watching that movie, " [58:05] The Million Pound Bank Note." [58:06] Right. [58:07] That’s the same as this; it's about [58:08] the human desire for miracles to happen [58:10] in life. This miracle might be getting [58:12] rich overnight, or maybe I was switched [58:14] at birth and my real parents are [58:16] billionaires. So I think this is human [58:18] nature, and it won’t change. When I [58:20] was a kid, I actually fantasized about [58:22] that. I think it might be because after [58:25] reading or watching some imaginative [58:27] literary work or film, one thinks about [58:28] the deep satire behind it. [58:31] Right, kids don't understand satire. [58:33] You just think, "Wow, what if I really [58:34] had a million-pound note? Wouldn't that [58:36] be great?" [58:37] I didn't get it either; I kept [58:39] wondering, "Why am I not an heir to a [58:41] fortune?" [58:41] Yes, it's actually the same thing. [58:43] Structural functionalism in literature [58:45] is just that—it's human psychology, [58:48] breaking down class, gender, and race. [58:51] Actually, I’m thinking of a way for [58:53] you to get rich, since you’re talking [58:55] about one-minute shorts. You could take [58:58] every 60-minute episode and cut it into [59:00] 60 segments, right? Each episode is one [59:02] minute. This part of what Lu Yu said [59:05] could even be a minute long. [59:07] We’ll charge three dollars to watch [59:08] the second episode. [59:09] We are truly honest folks. I once made [59:12] an episode of "Qiang Xing Tian Xia" [59:15] that lasted two and a half hours. In [59:18] the end, we did an extra episode for [59:20] free without pay because we had already [59:22] filmed it and couldn't bear not to let [59:24] the audience see it. So you see, [59:28] someone as worldly as I am still has [59:30] something inside that can’t be bought [59:32] ; I find anything over two minutes too [59:34] much to bear. [59:36] And people still give it a five-star [59:38] rating on Douban. No, but for someone [59:40] as honest as you, you have to keep up [59:42] with the times. You clearly can't keep [59:44] going like this; people won't finish [59:46] watching it at all. And look at that [59:50] day, an veteran performing artist sat [59:52] at our table and sighed, saying this [59:54] data just came out: for the first time, [59:57] the short drama market has surpassed [59:59] our film market. This was last year's [60:02] figure. Year. [60:03] The film market is 50 billion, and the [60:05] short drama market is 42.5 billion. You [60:08] see, the radio and television [60:09] authorities want to step in and guide [60:11] this. I think what the mayor said was [60:13] also quite interesting, that these [60:14] short dramas need to improve their [60:16] quality. [60:17] And then, you see, if we’re talking [60:19] about literature, short dramas need to [60:21] evolve from expressing mere emotions to [60:24] expressing genuine feelings, and from [60:26] there to expressing deeper sentiments. [60:29] That is the path you should take. [60:31] In a way, they are changing our future [60:33] aesthetics. First, look at how the [60:35] existence of short dramas and short [60:36] videos has changed our perception of [60:38] time. When we were kids, you could sit [60:40] there and read a book all afternoon [60:42] until it got dark, and you’d have [60:43] finished the whole book. Now, sometimes [60:45] I feel like I've been watching for a [60:47] long time, but then I check and only a [60:48] few minutes have passed. Our perception [60:50] of time has been fundamentally changed. [60:52] Furthermore, they are altering our [60:54] aesthetics. For instance, Hollywood [60:57] films had already started changing [60:59] before short dramas; you used to have [61:01] to wait five minutes for a small crisis [61:03] , but not anymore. Now, as soon as the [61:06] credits end, the very first scene is [61:08] already a crisis. Our demand for plot [61:11] twists has fundamentally shifted. So I [61:13] feel like there’s no going back. The [61:16] critical threshold has changed. [61:21] Recently, there was a scientific [61:22] research report—it’s quite [61:24] comprehensive—and although others [61:26] have researched this, this study had a [61:28] massive, global sample size. It is [61:33] entirely based on physiology. [61:39] Using AI to create, write reports, and [61:41] read, compared to those who use it less [61:44] , researchers scanned their brains and [61:46] found clear structural changes in the [61:48] brain. Actually, there has been [61:56] previous evidence showing that for [61:57] those who frequently use AI and watch [61:59] short videos, their brain activity [62:01] levels are lower. You might think [62:09] you’re being very active, watching [62:11] this for a minute, then immediately [62:13] switching to that, but your brain’s [62:15] activity level—and I don’t just [62:16] mean the mental part, but the actual [62:18] operations inside your brain—can be [62:20] scanned, and that level of activity is [62:22] actually dropping because you aren’t [62:24] actively trying to understand, organize [62:26] , think, or imagine; you’re just [62:27] sitting there receiving. In contrast, [62:34] if you don’t consume large amounts of [62:36] short videos or AI-generated content, [62:38] your brain’s operational initiative [62:40] is much higher. And it’s not just [62:43] different when you’re using them; it [62:45] affects you in the long run. As Lu Yu [62:47] said, there’s no going back. It’s [62:49] not just our perception—the entire [62:51] operation of the brain, the hardware [62:53] itself, is being altered. So, in 2024, [62:57] Oxford had its word of the year for the [62:59] English-speaking world, and the word [63:01] they chose for 2024 was "brain rot." [63:05] Mm. " [63:07] Brain rot," the term itself, combining [63:09] "brain" and "rot." [63:13] Its basic definition essentially refers [63:15] to a decline in human cognitive ability [63:17] , where one is only suited to consuming [63:19] fragmented information. Which [63:22] essentially means people are slowly [63:24] becoming less intelligent. [63:26] Current research on the brain has [63:28] discovered a specific characteristic in [63:30] how we remember time. When you [63:35] experience a moment you find wonderful, [63:37] like being with a loved one or enjoying [63:39] beautiful music, you feel at the time [63:41] that time is flying—good times always [63:44] pass quickly, right? It feels short, [63:49] but when you look back on it, that [63:51] period of time feels very long. [63:58] Conversely, for moments in life that [64:00] are difficult, like working or sitting [64:02] through a meeting, you feel bored and [64:05] think that "a day feels like a year," [64:07] making the moment feel very long, yet [64:09] in your later memories, it becomes very [64:11] short. [64:17] But what they are saying now is, what [64:19] happens when you watch tons of short [64:21] videos? It’s "double fast"—it feels [64:25] fast at the time, and when you look [64:27] back, it’s essentially nothing; you [64:30] can’t remember anything. Much like [64:33] watching our show, right? It’s " [64:36] double fast," meaning it leaves no [64:38] trace on your brain. But you might say, [64:42] I actually don’t think anything is [64:44] entirely negative. In this, I differ [64:48] from many intellectuals; I am a selfish [64:51] person. If we speak from the [64:53] perspective of worrying about the [64:55] common people, or the public, or the [64:57] world, then I would also agree: "Oh my, [64:59] what are we to do? Playing games like [65:01] this, what can be done?" So many people [65:03] are scrolling through short videos, [65:05] becoming more decadent and foolish. But [65:07] from my own personal experience, I feel [65:09] this is the era I most want to live in. [65:13] It’s not the Song Dynasty, nor the [65:16] Qin Dynasty; at the very least, this [65:18] era has air conditioning, right? [65:21] Actually, there exists a type of master [65:23] among us. I’m not saying I’m a [65:27] master, I’m just saying, I imagine [65:29] you can master it, as long as you have [65:31] enough drive. As long as you have [65:36] enough of a pursuit for wisdom and a [65:38] demand for your own progress, in fact, [65:40] anything that comes along can be put to [65:42] your own use. They all say scrolling [65:48] through short videos—hey man, [65:50] nowadays I actually feel there’s no [65:52] difference, because I have dozens of [65:54] books spread across three tables, and I [65:57] just read a bit each day, a bit each [65:59] day; my reading has become like this. [66:04] In reality, all media in the world are [66:06] nothing but books. Hmm. [66:08] Aren't short videos books too? They [66:12] cater to you like a flatterer, like a [66:14] eunuch trying to guess your intentions, [66:16] pushing you whatever you happen to like [66:18] . But I also discovered that when I [66:24] look for knowledge I find valuable— [66:26] for instance, I like philosophy— [66:28] indeed, some of the channels I filter [66:30] out do have the flaw of oversimplifying [66:33] philosophy, but as I said, for people [66:35] with our experience, we know roughly [66:37] what has been simplified, and we can't [66:39] really mistake that for the classics, [66:41] right? But is there inspiration? Of [66:46] course there is inspiration. You and I [66:48] were just saying earlier that we need [66:50] to practice our own ability to [66:51] summarize and distill information. I [66:53] think many content creators have—of [66:55] course, on one hand, you have to be [66:57] clear that it's unreliable for them to [66:59] summarize [a philosopher's] work in [67:01] three sentences. But after all, the [67:03] three sentences they summarized are [67:05] still those philosophers 'words. [67:08] They’ve helped me curate it; I don't [67:10] have the time, I’ll never have the [67:11] time in this life, to finish reading [67:13] all of [their] works. So, I take what I [67:16] can get. Bit by bit, I integrate it [67:18] into my own personal knowledge [67:20] structure. If you put it that way, [67:22] isn't this era—whether it’s short [67:24] videos or whatever, regardless of the [67:26] length, I also read the classics, I [67:28] read everything—isn't it providing [67:30] more? As long as you are able to—my [67:32] point is, just like these food critics [67:34] —you have to know how to choose. [67:36] Doesn't that help you? [67:38] I actually agree with what was said; I [67:39] don't think it's inherently good or bad [67:41] . You see, I once read a book by a [67:43] French thinker named Debord. He passed [67:46] away in the 90s. He wrote a book that [67:49] was translated into English as "The [67:50] Society of the Spectacle." [67:53] He actually foresaw the life we humans [67:55] lead today—a life that is entirely [67:57] defined by being watched. We have [68:00] already reached a point where our own [68:01] authentic experiences have been [68:03] replaced by being watched and being [68:04] presented. [68:05] I don't even have to experience things [68:07] firsthand anymore. Through videos, [68:09] through watching, it feels as though [68:11] the experience has replaced my own, as [68:13] if we are being watched and presented [68:15] at all times. Recently, before coming [68:18] here, I was in Shanghai working on a [68:20] show involving a host, where we had to [68:22] record a group of kids in a reality [68:23] show format. They gave me an office, [68:26] and there were cameras set up all [68:28] around it. Staying in there, I was [68:30] self-aware; I knew something was [68:32] filming me. I understood I was in a [68:34] state of being watched, and even though [68:36] you might eventually ignore their [68:37] presence, I became hyper-focused [68:39] because I knew I couldn't do anything [68:41] inappropriate. So, what did I do? I [68:43] read a book. So, under the gaze of [68:45] numerous cameras, I finished reading a [68:47] book at an unprecedented speed. It was [68:50] a truly bizarre state to be in. [68:52] I finished it in a state of flow. [68:54] In that state of flow, it started with [68:56] a performative nature because you were [68:58] watching me, so okay, I read, I just [68:59] sat still and read, and as I kept [69:01] reading, I got sucked in. I was in a [69:03] state of being watched—the very state [69:05] of modern life where we are constantly [69:07] watched and constantly performing. [69:09] Wow, that's exactly the performance [69:11] experience of the veteran actors at the [69:13] Beijing People's Art Theatre. [69:14] Being watched, [69:15] Knowing you're being watched, yet fully [69:17] immersed in the role. [69:18] Slowly, you just get into it. [69:19] Oh, you're an expert; you can see it [69:21] right there. [69:22] It's right there. So, if we follow Dou [69:25] Wentao's point, we've all had those [69:27] experiences, taking in so much and [69:29] integrating it into our own thinking [69:31] systems. From that perspective, we are [69:36] a very lucky generation. When we grew [69:40] up, there were basically no short-form [69:42] videos, no smartphones, and even no [69:44] internet. That foundation, that [69:48] intellectual core, and the various [69:50] structures of knowledge. I’ve got a [69:56] rough framework now, and suddenly, [69:58] faced with this onslaught of short [69:59] videos and all these strange, novel [70:01] things, we’re able to pick and choose [70:03] what we need, what really resonates [70:05] with us. Otherwise, if you’ve been [70:11] like this since birth, you won't have [70:13] the capacity—never mind financial [70:15] management—but for anything a bit [70:17] longer, more serious, or more complex, [70:19] you lack the foundation to handle it. [70:24] We possess the benefits of both sides, [70:26] or rather, the characteristics of both. [70:29] I think we, um,