## Detailed walkthrough
### [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYZLQx0K2PM&t=0s) Dining Habits, Character, and the Bandit Fish Test
The conversation opens with reflections on how table manners and dining habits reveal a person's inner nature, from how fast they move their chopsticks to how long they scrutinize the dishes before taking a bite. Hesitating over the plate reveals pickiness, as the diner searches for the prime cut—whether it is the leg or a specific choice morsel.
This observation leads into a historical anecdote attributed to Shen Congwen regarding the bandits of western Hunan. When these outlaws kidnapped a child for ransom, they would starve the child for three days before serving them a freshly cooked fish to determine the family's socioeconomic status:
- **Big Chunks of Body Meat**: If the famished child dug into the large, fleshy chunks, the bandits concluded the child came from an ordinary, impoverished household and released them immediately.
- **Belly Meat**: If the child targeted the tender fish belly, the bandits recognized some domestic privilege and held them for a moderate ransom.
- **Cheek Meat**: If the child bypassed the rest of the fish and reached straight for the prized, crescent-shaped cheek meat behind the gill on their very first bite, the bandits knew they had captured the most pampered darling of an elite household. The family would be extorted relentlessly until driven to the brink of bankruptcy.
---
[01:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYZLQx0K2PM&t=68s) Hosting Hou Hsiao-hsien and the Old Men's Dinner Club
The group turns to Chen Xiaoqing’s legendary standing in the Beijing culinary world, recalling the time Taiwanese filmmaker Hou Hsiao-hsien came to visit. Dou Wentao and his colleagues wanted to entertain Hou without leaving the relaxed comfort of their company balcony. They turned to Chen Xiaoqing, who arranged for an internationally renowned master chef to cater the gathering directly on-site, delivering a meticulously planned menu two days in advance. Dou jokes about the luxuries of having such connections, before teasing Liang Wendao about his commercial ventures, remarking that since modern literary intellectuals struggle to make a living purely on culture, Wendao has resorted to selling wine and snacks.
As sake and red wine are poured, Dou brings up Chen Xiaoqing’s reputation across Beijing dining circles. Wang Xiaofeng of *Sanlian Life Weekly* famously documented the "Old Men's Dinner Club" (*老男人饭局*)—a regular dining circle featuring cultural figures like Luo Yonghao, Lao Liu (Zhang Lixian), and Wang Xiaofeng himself. According to Wang, the culinary standard of their gatherings skyrocketed the moment Chen Xiaoqing joined, as Chen spent his days scouting hidden gems. Urban legend held that when Chen once lost his mobile phone, it contained a personal database of thousands of restaurants, complete with exact dish selections and specific instructions to give the kitchen staff. Chen modestly downplays rumors—such as the claim that he could taste subtle recipe variations between different domestic Yoshinoya fast-food branches—admitting he rarely eats fast food unless stuck working late at the office.
---
[03:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYZLQx0K2PM&t=224s) Hebei Sausage and Lao Liu's Agonizing Ordering Rituals
Dou Wentao serves a plate of homemade northern-style sausage cured by a relative's grandmother in Hebei, offering a humble taste of his hometown. Chen Xiaoqing is then asked to reflect on the sheer frequency of his dining marathons. Chen admits he has long lost count; at the peak of the dinner club's activity, the core group met every single day for an entire week, constantly brainstorming daily themes and scouting the next evening's destination.
A central charm of these gatherings was the host, Lao Liu (Zhang Lixian), who insisted on delivering an earnest, formal opening monologue at every meal. Even when it was just the same four familiar friends sitting around the table, Lao Liu introduced each guest as if they were meeting for the first time, respectfully detailing their recent accomplishments and activities. Jiang Fangzhou recalls attending gatherings where Lao Liu was left to order without Chen Xiaoqing present, describing it as an excruciating ordeal. Lao Liu would agonize over the menu, flipping endlessly back and forth; Wang Xiaofeng used to joke that Lao Liu's ordering strategy was entirely mechanical, simply counting down and picking the sixth dish on every single page.
---
[06:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYZLQx0K2PM&t=369s) The Architecture of Ordering and the Perils of Waiter Recommendations
The table examines the subtle craft of composing a meal, which Dou Wentao compares to the classic poetic imagery of mountain peaks and ridges—presenting varied heights, textures, and rhythms from every angle. Dou mentions an acquaintance who could coordinate bespoke meals at fine-dining venues in Paris or Hong Kong purely over WeChat, dictating custom sequences directly to the chef without consulting a menu. Chen Xiaoqing explains his own philosophy:
- **Tailoring to Guests**: A curated menu must cater to who is sitting at the table. When hosting an intellectual figure like Liang Wendao, Chen selects refined, slightly pretentious dishes highlighting delicate broths, roots, and understated ingredients; for northern diners, hearty, carbohydrate-centric staple courses are mandatory.
- **Portion Control and Signatures**: A host must know a restaurant's portion scale in advance and identify its one or two true standout signature dishes, ignoring the forgettable filler that pads out most menus.
- **Navigating Online Reviews**: On public review platforms, Chen applies a process of elimination, immediately filtering out venues that pay for advertising or push cheap promotional deals.
- **The Pitfalls of Waiter Recommendations**: While asking waitstaff for suggestions works in elite establishments with genuine professional integrity, in average domestic restaurants servers simply steer patrons toward high-margin dishes to earn sales commissions. Similarly, in many Western bistros, the "catch of the day" is rarely the freshest selection; rather, it is often a kitchen tactic used to clear aging, unsold seafood inventory before it spoils.
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: The Bandit Fish Test
accDescr: A decision flow showing how Xiangxi bandits determined ransom based on which part of a fish a kidnapped child ate after three days of starvation.
A["Kidnap child & starve for 3 days"] --> B["Serve freshly cooked fish"]
B --> C{"Which part does child eat first?"}
C -->|"Large chunks of body meat"| D["Impoverished child"]
C -->|"Fish belly"| E["Middle-class / comfortable family"]
C -->|"Cheek / crescent meat behind gill"| F["Most pampered darling of elite family"]
D --> G["Release immediately"]
E --> H["Hold for modest ransom"]
F --> I["Demand massive ransom until family goes bankrupt"]
```
[09:57](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYZLQx0K2PM&t=597s) The Taste System, Discernment, and Wild Game
The conversation opens with a quick note on commercial hospitality and turnover—how restaurants must lower prices to move inventory quickly when ordering large volumes of delicate ingredients like Gillardeau oysters. Dou Wentao pivots to ask Chen Xiaoqing what he considers the best food he has ever eaten, to which Chen Xiaoqing unhesitatingly answers, "Home-cooked food."
When the question turns to Jiang Fangzhou, she self-deprecatingly admits that she possesses virtually no refined palate and functions essentially as a "human Yelp review site" (大众点评). Incapable of judging culinary quality on her own, she relies entirely on external authorities: if Chen Xiaoqing praises a sausage, she finds it delicious; if Liang Wendao subsequently disagrees, she is left stranded without an internal benchmark, humorously asking whether that makes her a robot. The panel points out that discernment requires a lifetime of comparative experience. A person who has eaten white rice every day of their life can instantly recognize an impeccably cooked bowl of premium rice; without an accumulated baseline, serving someone a remarkably expensive vintage wine is utterly meaningless.
The discussion links this principle to the late epicure Chua Lam's (蔡澜) frequent admonition against eating wild game. The guests agree that eating wild animals is pointless because diners lack the cultural habit and sensory baseline to evaluate them. Crucially, the culinary failure lies with the kitchen: chefs undergo daily, repetitive training with domestic meats like pork, mastering every joint, muscle fiber, and cut through hundreds of iterations. Because chefs lack systematic, daily practice with wild animals, wild game almost never yields culinary excellence.
---
[11:28](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYZLQx0K2PM&t=688s) Anatomy of the Chinese "Dinner Party" (Fanju)
Moving beyond casual meals between friends, the table examines the intricate subculture of the Chinese "dinner party" (*fanju*), which functions less as a culinary gathering and more as a high-stakes arena of social etiquette, diplomacy, and interpersonal warfare. Dou Wentao marvels at the specialized internet slang categorizing the participants of formal business or networking banquets:
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: Roles in a Chinese Fanju
accDescr: Hierarchy of specialized roles at a Chinese social dinner party.
A["Party Lead<br/>(Guest of Honor / Target)"] --- B["Party Shill<br/>(Atmosphere & Toast Escort)"]
B --- C["Party Pro<br/>(Cover & Damage Control)"]
C --- D["Party Slave<br/>(Bill Payer / Tab Handler)"]
```
- **The Party Lead (局长 / 主宾):** The primary target of the dinner. They occupy the seat of honor, and the entire gathering is orchestrated to flatter, woo, or win them over, whether they are aware of the setup or not.
- **The Party Shill (局托):** Guests recruited specifically to liven up the room, initiate toasts, and maintain high spirits so the atmosphere never falters.
- **The Party Pro (局补):** A strategic backup for the shill, responsible for smoothing over conversational miscues, managing social friction, and patching up awkward moments.
- **The Party Slave (局奴 / 买单侠):** The unwitting or resigned participant designated solely to foot the bill at the end of the evening.
The panel compares regional networking styles, contrasting the dinner cultures of Shanghai and Beijing. In Shanghai, social arrangements follow clear boundaries and realistic commitments: if you ask an intermediary to set up a meal with an esteemed contact, they will check schedules directly, refuse to make empty promises on the spot, and proceed only if schedules align. Beijing's social scene, by contrast, is characterized by performative familiarity and boisterous over-promising. An acquaintance will loudly boast, "I was with him just yesterday—I'll call him over right this second!" If the person actually shows up, they immediately claim a prior engagement elsewhere, making a show of staying briefly; if they fail to appear, the host provides endless excuses the next day, claiming sudden illness and urging you to wait just one more day.
---
[14:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYZLQx0K2PM&t=841s) Awkward Encounters and the Bill-Paying Culture
Dou Wentao shares a notorious dinner-party scenario where casual acquaintances exploit someone's name to inflate their own social capital. A remote acquaintance will unexpectedly call from another table or another city, loudly announcing on speakerphone in front of their dining companions, "I'm sitting right next to an exceptionally talented, beautiful woman who would be perfect for your show—didn't you ask me for recommendations last time?" They then thrust the phone at their guest, forcing an awkward, unearned conversation purely to show off their supposed clout. Jiang Fangzhou laughs knowingly, observing that she has witnessed these schemes firsthand and realized just how crafty older men in these networking circles can be.
The conversation naturally shifts to the ritual of paying the bill. In Chinese social dining, men traditionally rush to pick up the tab. One speaker admits to hating when others pay for them, preferring to settle the account themselves because they took charge of ordering, or turning the bill into a lighthearted guessing game where whoever guesses closest pays.
This is contrasted with dining etiquette in Japan. A Japanese male student recounted to one of the guests that offering to pay for a woman's meal in Japan is viewed as a massive, consequential gesture—often interpreted as an explicit romantic proposition rather than casual courtesy. Furthermore, the panel discusses the agonizing communication norms among Japanese youth:
- Women may wait three full days before replying to a message, leaving the notification entirely unopened.
- Rather than indicating dislike, this delay stems from viewing a response as a serious obligation and psychological burden; they postpone opening messages until they have dedicated time to craft a proper reply.
- Conversational indirectness is pervasive: when asked for an evaluation, a polite "It doesn't look bad" almost invariably translates to "It's not very good."
---
[17:58](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYZLQx0K2PM&t=1078s) Solving Problems at the Dinner Table and Blind Dates
Returning to domestic dining, the panel reflects on the entrenched Chinese conviction that "there is no problem that cannot be solved over a meal; if one meal can't solve it, two meals will." The dinner table remains the primary venue for negotiation, conflict resolution, and matchmaking. While blind-date banquets do not guarantee a high romantic success rate, they ensure immediate, substantive interaction.
Dou Wentao recalls acting as a matchmaker for his friend Quan Yongxian ("Uncle Quan", the celebrated screenwriter of the espionage drama *The Cliff* / 《悬崖》). The matchmaking unravelled due to Quan's boundless love for alcohol: when the party wrapped up and Dou instructed him to escort the woman home, Quan stubbornly refused to peel himself away from the bottle, pleading, "Where are you guys going to drink next? Don't leave me out, I'm coming with you!"
The segment concludes on why the banquet remains indispensable for conducting business in China. A regular conference room or formal office setting is too rigid and constraining. Around a dining table, relaxed by food and alcohol, people can speak truths and make concessions that would be impermissible in a formal setting, and such overtures are far more readily tolerated under the guise of casual drinking. Yet, balancing these delicate dynamics makes organizing a successful dinner party one of the most grueling social tasks in Chinese professional life.
```mermaid
flowchart LR
accTitle: 东西方顶级就餐体验心态对比
accDescr: 对比西方/日本就餐的严谨专注与中国饭局注重社交应酬的心态差异。
subgraph West["西方与日本高档餐饮"]
direction TB
W1["态度如同听古典音乐会<br/>庄严、专注、紧绷"] --> W2["聚焦食物本身<br/>解构分子料理与多层风味"]
end
subgraph East["传统中式饭局现象"]
direction TB
E1["意在言外、功夫在诗外<br/>注重社交排场与人际互动"] --> E2["商务应酬推杯换盏<br/>顶级食材与佳酿易被虚掷"]
end
```
```mermaid
flowchart LR
accTitle: 清代奇人扮丐行为逻辑
accDescr: 展现晚清将领与八旗子弟乔装乞丐的荒诞行径与背后动机
subgraph S1["四马路将军奇遇"]
A["白袍将军获饷银"] --> B["上海四马路乔装跪讨"]
B --> C["向过路摩登女子递纸条"]
C --> D["心善者拆看：内裹金箔"]
end
subgraph S2["北京八旗贵胄风尚"]
E["八旗子弟隐秘癖好"] --> F["西郊街头扮丐乞讨"]
F --> G["露出破绽：拇指翡翠扳指"]
G --> H["豪车接驾/太监伺候换锦衣"]
end
```
```mermaid
flowchart LR
accTitle: 流水席文化与社交场域演变
accDescr: 从西方艺术名流聚会到中国乡土与都市礼俗的变化路径
subgraph Western ["西方名人场域"]
A["安迪·沃霍尔<br/>Loft 工厂 / 边缘群体聚会"]
B["杰克·伦敦<br/>狼舍 Wolf House / 文人雅集"]
end
subgraph Traditional ["中国传统乡土"]
C["乡村白事流水席<br/>大办三日 / 越远越敬"]
end
subgraph Urban ["现代都市纠结"]
D["上海婚宴人情账<br/>礼金规矩 / 面子与 Social Code"]
end
A -.-> C
B -.-> C
C --> D
```
subgraph Phase1["初次交锋：志在必得"]
A["看中黄花梨大床<br/>心理估值：80万"] --> B["豪掷溢价 120万 求购"]
B --> C["澡堂老板断然拒绝<br/>'一辈子都不卖'"]
end
subgraph Phase2["转机出现：对方生变"]
C -.->|"相隔两年"| D["知情人通风报信：<br/>老板妻子生子急需用钱"]
end
subgraph Phase3["二次博弈：闪电战拿下"]
D --> E["马未都主动致电<br/>祭出心理博弈打压策略"]
E --> F["一口价 59万（60万减1万）<br/>'不许还价，一分钟到账'"]
F --> G["老板毫不犹豫答应<br/>次日火速派人提货防悔约"]
end
```
[01:33:56](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYZLQx0K2PM&t=5636s) The Underground Heritage and Observing the World
Following a discussion about how attentive people were to customer service and social nuances in an earlier era, the host segues into an unexpected personal connection regarding Jin Yucheng's background. Mentioning that he recently learned Jin Yucheng's father was an underground Communist Party operative during the revolutionary period, the host points out that Jin Yucheng seems to carry a clear trace of his father's shadow. Just like an intelligence operative embedded in the field, Jin Yucheng spends his days gathering detailed observations, quietly collecting information, and intently studying all manner of people from everyday life—an instinctual vigilance and curiosity that deeply informs his storytelling and literary writing. Wrapping up the gathering, the host warmly thanks "Professor Jin" for offering such an engaging collection of memories, insights, and human stories.
- **Underground Operative Legacy**: Jin Yucheng's father was an underground Party operative in Shanghai, a background of covert observation and situational awareness that humorously parallels Jin's own habit of constantly observing people and gathering life details.
- **Observational Method**: Jin's sharp eye for human behavior, social strata, and everyday habits is framed as an inherited talent for collecting intelligence on the human condition.
- **Closing Tribute**: The host expresses appreciation for Jin Yucheng's presence and the vivid, textured anecdotes he brought to the table throughout the conversation.
[0:00] But dining out is the best way to see
[0:02] someone's true character, like the
[0:04] speed at which they use their
[0:06] chopsticks.
[0:08] >> How long they look at the dishes is a
[0:11] test of their character.
[0:13] >> If they look, if they take a long time,
[0:16] what does that mean?
[0:17] >> It means this person is definitely very
[0:20] picky.
[0:20] >> Oh, I see.
[0:22] >> He looks at which piece it is.
[0:24] >> Which is the leg, which part is the tip
[0:26] .
[0:26] >> Right, right. Shen Wen used to be a
[0:30] bandit, and he would say this about
[0:32] eating fish.
[0:33] >> Hmm.
[0:34] >> When they kidnapped a child.
[0:36] >> Hmm.
[0:37] >> They'd starve them for three days.
[0:38] >> Hmm.
[0:39] >> Then they'd cook a fish for them. If
[0:42] they ate the big chunks of meat, they
[0:44] were poor kids, so they'd let them go.
[0:46] >> Hmm.
[0:47] >> If they went straight for the belly.
[0:50] >> Hmm.
[0:50] >> They’d keep them for a few more days.
[0:52] >> Hmm.
[0:53] >> If they went straight for the cheek
[0:55] meat. The first bite is that
[0:57] crescent-shaped meat, yes.
[0:59] >> His family wouldn't be able to leave
[1:01] without going bankrupt, because he was
[1:03] the most favored one in the family.
[1:05] >> Hmm, I see.
[1:06] >> You have to say he’s sharp.
[1:08] >> We actually entrusted Master Xiaoqing
[1:11] with this before, we had a dinner, I
[1:13] remember it was when Hou Hsiao-hsien
[1:15] came.
[1:15] >> Hmm. We said Hou Hsiao-hsien is coming,
[1:19] we have to treat him well, but we
[1:21] didn't want to go anywhere else, just
[1:23] on our comfortable company balcony. Who
[1:26] knew Master Xiaoqing would invite a
[1:28] master chef to come over.
[1:29] >> International level, it was truly,
[1:31] truly impressive.
[1:32] >> So you see, being able to make friends
[1:34] like this, right? This life is just too
[1:36] good.
[1:37] >> Did he bring the ingredients himself?
[1:39] >> Uh, no, he prepared them, he...
[1:41] >> He showed me the menu two days in
[1:43] advance. Yes.
[1:45] >> Wow, so...
[1:47] >> So, so, so today we have to treat him
[1:50] well, but we are also taking advantage,
[1:52] right? Originally, I said Master
[1:55] Xiaoqing,
[1:56] >> bring something to eat, but Master
[1:58] Xiaoqing was in a rush and said, "Can
[2:00] you get me a bottle of sake?"
[2:02] >> I brought you a bottle of wine.
[2:05] >> And now, Wendao is doing his own thing;
[2:07] this literary youth can't make a living
[2:09] , so he started selling wine, and after
[2:11] selling wine, he'll sell snacks.
[2:13] >> Pour it, pour the red wine for Wendao,
[2:17] yes.
[2:17] >> You pour for everyone, come on, Wendao.
[2:20] >> Let’s, I’ll pour you the sake.
[2:23] I’ll pour you the sake. Today we have
[2:25] two kinds of wine, we’ll mix them, is
[2:27] that okay?
[2:28] >> I have no problem with that.
[2:29] >> Yes, our goal is to get you drunk.
[2:31] >> You won't get me drunk. Get someone
[2:34] else. Oh my, I have heard that Master
[2:37] Xiaoqing is extremely famous in the
[2:40] Beijing dining scene. Wang Xiaofeng
[2:43] from Sanlian Life Weekly mentioned that
[2:46] we used to have this "Old Men's Dinner
[2:48] Club," with people like Luo Yonghao and
[2:50] Lao Liu (Zhang Lixian). He said that
[2:54] ever since Chen Xiaoqing joined our
[2:56] dinners, the quality of the food has
[2:59] improved significantly.
[3:01] >> Right, exactly. He said that for a
[3:04] person to reach this level, it's like
[3:06] walking around just to scout out good
[3:09] food.
[3:10] >> He lost a phone once, and it had data
[3:12] on thousands of restaurants in it.
[3:15] >> True, and it didn't just say which
[3:17] restaurant to go to, but what to order
[3:20] and what to remind the servers about
[3:22] each dish.
[3:23] >> That's jumping into the Yellow River.
[3:25] Jumping into the Yellow River.
[3:26] >> Right, you can't wash yourself clean
[3:28] even if you jump into the Yellow River.
[3:29] And Teacher Chen can even taste the
[3:30] differences between Yoshinoya locations
[3:32] .
[3:32] >> This is, this is an exaggeration.
[3:34] >> Actually, no.
[3:35] >> Are you talking about the domestic
[3:37] Yoshinoya locations? I rarely eat there
[3:39] .
[3:40] >> Really? Only if I'm working overtime at
[3:43] the office.
[3:44] >> Also, I've prepared something for
[3:46] Teacher Xiaoqing to taste—this is
[3:49] sausage made by our relative's
[3:51] grandmother in Hebei.
[3:52] >> Mhm.
[3:53] >> I don't know if you...it's just a bit
[3:55] of hometown flavor. Homemade sausage.
[3:57] Mhm, this is northern-style sausage.
[3:59] >> Northern-style sausage, huh.
[4:00] >> I can't eat it.
[4:01] >> Of course you can, it's for you guys.
[4:03] Come on, let's eat and drink.
[4:05] >> Come, come, come.
[4:07] >> Today, I mean, sorry, let me, let me.
[4:09] >> Let others, let others.
[4:11] >> Right.
[4:12] >> I'm saying Teacher Xiaoqing needs to
[4:14] share his gourmet expertise with them.
[4:15] You can talk about other experiences,
[4:18] but let's talk about dining experiences
[4:20] .
[4:20] >> Mhm.
[4:24] >> Can you even count how many times
[4:26] you've had these dinners?
[4:29] >> Oh, I've lost count. Lost count.
[4:33] Someone asked me the other day, "You
[4:35] guys always eat together with the same
[4:37] few people?" How often did you meet
[4:40] during the busiest times? At our
[4:43] busiest, we would meet for a week.
[4:45] >> Meeting every single day.
[4:48] >> Yes, we'd have to discuss what the
[4:51] theme was for the day. Uh, where we'd
[4:54] meet tomorrow. It was always the same
[4:57] few people.
[4:58] >> Always being together, it's very
[5:01] comfortable and very fun. Because
[5:04] >> It's very fun.
[5:05] >> Mhm, Lao Liu is the host.
[5:07] >> Mhm.
[5:08] >> He always has to have an opening
[5:10] monologue.
[5:11] >> He introduces everyone as if we don't
[5:13] know each other. Whenever the four of
[5:16] us are eating together,
[5:17] >> he has to do an introduction, talking
[5:19] about what everyone has been doing
[5:21] lately. He does it very sincerely and
[5:24] respectfully. Every time feels like
[5:26] getting to know myself again while
[5:28] eating with everyone, it's very
[5:29] interesting. Fangzhou, have you joined
[5:31] our gatherings?
[5:32] >> No.
[5:33] >> No.
[5:34] >> I have joined.
[5:35] >> I remember, but then...
[5:36] >> They didn't tease you, did they?
[5:37] >> Tease me or anything like that. Hey,
[5:39] they all tease each other.
[5:41] >> That was considered polite to me, but
[5:42] what I felt left a deep impression on
[5:44] me back then was what?
[5:45] >> Ordering food.
[5:46] >> There were a few times you weren't
[5:48] there.
[5:48] >> And, well, letting Lao Liu order food
[5:50] was a very painful experience.
[5:52] >> Because when Lao Liu orders, he looks
[5:54] back and forth, and later we asked what
[5:57] was up with Lao Liu. I remember Wang
[5:59] Xiaofeng saying that Lao Liu orders
[6:01] like this: he counts one, two, three,
[6:03] and picks the sixth dish on every page.
[6:05] >> Exactly. But ordering is truly an art
[6:10] form. I feel that if you know a friend
[6:13] like this in your life, it saves you so
[6:15] much trouble. I have a friend I almost
[6:17] worship; I mean, forget about China.
[6:20] >> For example, when I get to Paris.
[6:22] >> Hmm.
[6:23] >> I ask what to eat or which restaurant
[6:25] to go to. He calls or WeChats the
[6:27] restaurant, just like this assistant,
[6:30] saying to order this and that, and
[6:32] tells the chef to do this and that, and
[6:34] at what point to serve which dish.
[6:36] >> You're saying he didn't even look at
[6:38] the menu; he knows it by heart.
[6:40] >> Actually, it's...
[6:41] >> This guy.
[6:42] >> He's incredible.
[6:44] >> That I can do, that Hong Kong and Paris
[6:46] part I can do. You also have the art of
[6:49] ordering food.
[6:50] >> How do they say it should be ordered? A
[6:52] table of dishes should look like ridges
[6:54] from the side and peaks from afar—
[6:55] different from every angle. How did you
[6:57] find that? That's very difficult for me
[7:00] .
[7:00] >> I never know what to order. Do you have
[7:03] any principles, or is it just intuition
[7:05] for you?
[7:05] >> Well, it depends on who's coming;
[7:08] that's the most important thing. If
[7:12] Wendao comes, I definitely have to
[7:14] order one that's, you know, up there.
[7:17] >> Got to find one, um...
[7:19] >> A dish that's a bit pretentious.
[7:22] >> Something with soups or roots that's
[7:24] prepared quite delicately, hmm.
[7:26] >> Hmm. If, for example, someone from the
[7:29] North comes, I must have a dish
[7:32] centered around staples. This "
[7:34] arranging dishes"—well, people call
[7:37] it "arranging," but it's just ordering,
[7:39] ordering, ordering.
[7:40] >> Because for five people, how much food
[7:42] should I order? Every time, regarding
[7:44] the portion size, I say I don't have...
[7:46] >> Hmm.
[7:46] >> No, I don't. First, you have to be
[7:48] familiar with the restaurant. Some
[7:50] restaurants have really, really large
[7:51] portions.
[7:52] >> And most importantly, you must order
[7:54] one centerpiece dish, that is...
[7:56] >> Every restaurant actually only has one
[7:58] or two dishes that are truly the best;
[8:01] the rest are just forgettable, and now
[8:03] with all these review sites and
[8:05] word-of-mouth platforms,
[8:07] >> it’s relatively easier, but
[8:14] >> I also use a process of elimination;
[8:16] for example, on review sites, I know
[8:19] which ones pay for ads, so I just won't
[8:21] go there.
[8:24] >> How do you know that?
[8:26] >> Yeah, I’m curious about that too,
[8:28] because sometimes when we go somewhere,
[8:29] I’m really unfamiliar with it and
[8:31] have to check review sites, but I feel
[8:33] like they’re very unreliable.
[8:34] >> Well, if you don't have friends there,
[8:37] you have to rely on that or review
[8:39] sites.
[8:40] >> Then just don't order the cheap stuff.
[8:42] >> Mm.
[8:43] >> Mm. Mm.
[8:45] >> Just take the cheap ones out first.
[8:47] >> I also think it’s better to remove
[8:48] them first.
[8:49] >> Cut them out, then you might get
[8:50] something accurate.
[8:51] >> Then—then I always ask the waiter for
[8:53] recommendations; is that okay?
[8:55] >> That’s certainly okay, but the
[8:57] prerequisite for asking that is...
[8:59] >> The prerequisite is that it’s a very
[9:01] good restaurant.
[9:02] >> They will have a professional attitude
[9:05] when helping you order.
[9:06] >> Right.
[9:07] >> If you go to our restaurant, our
[9:09] waiters will definitely tell you, "You
[9:11] should order..." they’ll just pick
[9:13] one for you, and you look at it and go,
[9:15] "Damn, this is so expensive!" That’s
[9:17] definitely how it is, because they want
[9:19] a commission.
[9:20] >> Exactly.
[9:22] >> Yeah, they lose that professional
[9:24] integrity.
[9:25] >> And there’s another strange thing;
[9:27] for example, at restaurants abroad,
[9:29] don't just assume people overseas are
[9:31] all very professional. They aren't. If
[9:33] you ask what’s good today, what they
[9:36] recommend might be the ingredients that
[9:38] didn't sell and need to be cleared out
[9:40] quickly, especially with seafood—this
[9:42] is most common. Many Western
[9:44] restaurants have a "catch of the day,"
[9:47] >> it’s best not to order it. Unless
[9:49] it's a very high-end restaurant,
[9:51] otherwise, what they give you is
[9:53] usually...
[9:53] >> That’s one scenario, but there’s
[9:55] another situation, which is high volume
[9:56] .
[9:56] >> Right.
[9:57] >> They need to move that volume.
[9:59] >> Like, if I bought a huge batch of
[10:01] Gillardeau oysters, I have to lower the
[10:03] price a bit to make them move faster.
[10:05] >> Right, so Teacher Xiaoqing, what do you
[10:07] think is the best thing you’ve ever
[10:10] eaten in your life? Home cooking?
[10:12] >> Home-cooked food.
[10:14] >> Hey, Fangzhou, what about you? Me?
[10:17] >> I’m a person with no sense of taste;
[10:19] I just can’t tell what’s delicious
[10:21] and what isn't. I am essentially a
[10:23] human Yelp review site. If someone
[10:25] tells me something is delicious, for
[10:27] example, if Teacher Xiaoqing says this
[10:29] sausage is tasty, I’ll find it tasty.
[10:30] But if Teacher Wendang says it’s not,
[10:32] then what should I do? Is it actually
[10:34] tasty or not? Are you a robot?
[10:37] >> No, but I don't have a system for
[10:38] discernment. Hmm.
[10:40] >> Take someone who has eaten white rice
[10:41] their whole life; if you bring them a
[10:43] bowl of high-quality white rice today,
[10:45] cooked perfectly with the right rice,
[10:47] >> we’d say it's good, but that’s the
[10:48] judgment of someone who has eaten rice
[10:50] their entire life. It’s the same with
[10:52] wine, so if you bring out a very
[10:54] expensive wine, for most people, it’s
[10:55] meaningless.
[10:56] >> Yes, what he said is just like what Mr.
[10:59] Chua Lam repeatedly says: there's no
[11:01] point in eating wild animals.
[11:03] >> That's right.
[11:04] >> Because we don’t have the habit of
[11:06] eating wild animals. Hmm, just
[11:09] >> no foundation for that taste.
[11:11] >> Right, and most importantly, the chefs
[11:13] don't get the daily training.
[11:15] >> They are most trained in pork; they
[11:17] know exactly where to cut, which piece
[11:20] is which, and I’ve seen this before,
[11:22] so they know it. But wild game? No, it
[11:26] doesn't work.
[11:28] >> You’re talking about this kind of
[11:29] meal, like eating with friends just to
[11:32] be happy, right? But actually, when we
[11:34] use the term "dinner party"(fanju),
[11:37] >> you know, I looked it up online and
[11:39] realized it’s all about social
[11:40] etiquette and human relationships.
[11:42] It’s a battlefield. I heard many
[11:45] professional terms for the first time,
[11:46] you know? Like, a dinner party has a "
[11:49] party lead," what is that, and the
[11:50] party...
[11:51] >> And there are "party shills," too.
[11:53] >> For example, this "party lead" is the
[11:55] main target today. We are here to win
[11:57] you over. You sit in the main seat; you
[11:59] are the "party lead."
[12:01] >> Does the "party lead" know they are the
[12:02] "party lead"?
[12:03] >> They might, or they might not. And then
[12:06] , this "party shill" is specifically
[12:08] hired, like an escort, to keep the
[12:10] atmosphere lively and drink, making the
[12:12] vibe happy, right? Then there’s the "
[12:15] party pro," a shill for the shill.
[12:17] It’s a complex system; they are
[12:19] responsible for patching things up,
[12:21] covering for the shill's mistakes.
[12:23] >> Finally, there is the "party slave,"
[12:25] the one who comes to pay the bill.
[12:27] >> Just the "party slave."
[12:29] >> That’s a good one. I wonder how many
[12:31] times I’ve been a "party slave."
[12:32] >> This is a work dinner.
[12:34] >> Right. There are actually many types of
[12:37] dinner parties.
[12:38] >> For example, there are matchmaking
[12:40] dinners, or for networking...
[12:42] >> Yes, there are all kinds of work
[12:45] dinners. Different regions, different
[12:47] social styles; the social scenes in
[12:49] Shanghai and Beijing are completely
[12:51] different.
[12:52] >> Take Shanghai for example, if I go to
[12:54] Shanghai and want to meet a Taoist
[12:56] master through you,
[12:58] >> to have a meal.
[12:59] >> You would definitely ask him right then
[13:02] and there. Then you'd ask him, see when
[13:04] he's free, and it's settled.
[13:06] >> Mm.
[13:07] >> He won't promise you on the spot.
[13:09] >> Right.
[13:10] >> Beijing's social scene is like this—
[13:12] don't let the mic pick this up—
[13:15] >> It's just that I'm close to him, I was
[13:17] with him just yesterday, I told him
[13:19] when to come.
[13:21] >> Tell him to come now, right now. "Come
[13:24] on, come on," and when he arrives, he
[13:27] says, "Damn, what bad timing today.""I
[13:29] have another gathering elsewhere,
[13:31] otherwise we'd have to eat until after
[13:34] 3:00 to talk." He clearly...
[13:36] >> The next day, you realize the next day,
[13:39] >> He still hasn't come. He says he's sick
[13:42] today and really can't make it. He asks
[13:45] , "Can you wait one more day? If you
[13:49] wait another day, I'll definitely get
[13:52] him for you." Sigh, what a fool for
[13:55] listening to that. Why would you
[13:58] believe his nonsense?
[14:01] >> Hey, I've seen another type of setup,
[14:03] this kind of social scene, where you
[14:06] often have this situation where you
[14:08] didn't agree at first, and then I pick
[14:10] up the phone and it's a friend I barely
[14:13] know, right? But in New York, I'm not
[14:16] in New York. I get these calls: "Hey, I
[14:19] just met this incredibly talented,
[14:21] beautiful woman, she could be on your
[14:24] show! Didn't you ask me to give you
[14:26] recommendations last time?" Or
[14:27] something like that. "Come on, I'm
[14:29] waiting for you." You say, "I have no
[14:31] idea what he's talking about, what are
[14:33] you saying?""
[14:34] >> He's right next door.""
[14:35] >> He's right next door," yes, right next
[14:38] door, yes.
[14:38] >> Yes, and then sometimes they say, "Hey,
[14:40] talk to him for a second, just say a
[14:42] couple words," and like that, "Hey,
[14:43] hello, how..."
[14:44] >> You know he's pulling a scam on the
[14:46] other end, right? But you seem to be
[14:48] laughing so hard, have you experienced
[14:50] this personally? Have you encountered
[14:53] this?
[14:53] >> I've experienced it firsthand and
[14:55] learned how crafty older men can be.
[14:57] >> I haven't experienced that.
[14:59] >> I've run into it quite a few times.
[15:01] >> Hmm, it's too much to recount.
[15:04] >> You're saying that right now, men
[15:05] usually pay the bill for you, right?
[15:07] >> Uh.
[15:08] >> Chinese men are all like that. I don't
[15:11] like it when others pay, so I usually
[15:12] pay the bill myself, because I'm the
[15:14] one who orders the food, and when I
[15:16] order, I say...
[15:17] >> Yes, and I say, because I don't like
[15:19] letting others pay, I say "I've got
[15:21] this," right?
[15:21] >> Yeah, and then I said let's guess the
[15:23] total, and whoever gets it right pays,
[15:25] but since I’m usually the one
[15:26] ordering, I pretty much guess what I
[15:28] ordered.
[15:28] >> Are you guys adults or what, guessing
[15:31] prices?
[15:31] >> It’s just not liking to let the other
[15:33] person pay, yeah.
[15:34] >> You know, I went to Japan a while ago,
[15:36] and what I’m about to say might sound
[15:38] fake. Hmm.
[15:40] >> But, there was this Japanese male
[15:42] student I knew,
[15:43] >> and he told me something I found hard
[15:45] to understand. He said,
[15:47] >> he said for Japanese girls, he was
[15:50] confused at first too, he said if he
[15:52] takes her out for a meal, in her eyes,
[15:54] if you pay the bill,
[15:56] >> it’s a big deal. It might even mean
[15:59] you want to be more than friends.
[16:01] You’re picking up the tab? That’s a
[16:04] major move. And he said it’s really
[16:07] something, because he feels that if you
[16:10] buy them a meal and pay,
[16:12] >> they start thinking you’re interested
[16:14] in a romantic relationship.
[16:16] >> But then, you send them a message, and
[16:18] they don't reply for three days.
[16:19] >> Hmm.
[16:20] >> No reply for three days. I asked why,
[16:23] and he said, look at how Chinese people
[16:26] date, always in constant contact. But
[16:29] with Japanese girls, you send a message
[16:32] ,
[16:32] >> not only do they not reply, but three
[16:34] days later, if you check their phone,
[16:37] Hmm.
[16:37] >> that message hasn't even been opened.
[16:40] >> Oh.
[16:41] >> I asked, "Why?" He said it's just
[16:44] because they met you once,
[16:46] >> and then they spend most of their time
[16:48] alone, maybe busy with work, and they
[16:50] think if they open it right away,
[16:52] >> it becomes a burden, an obligation,
[16:56] >> a real obligation to respond to
[16:58] what’s going on. I felt like Japanese
[17:00] people make a big deal out of nothing.
[17:03] They take things so seriously, like "Oh
[17:05] , I have to reply," so they wait three
[17:06] days until they have time to deal with
[17:08] it all at once. Sometimes couples date
[17:10] three or four times and get married
[17:12] within a few months. Hmm.
[17:14] >> Later I asked, "Is that even possible?"
[17:17] But there was a Japanese girl right
[17:18] there, and I said, "Is that true for
[17:19] you?" And the Japanese girl said, "Yeah
[17:21] , it’s like that." I asked why they
[17:23] don't reply the same day, and she said,
[17:25] "We just don't feel the need to reply
[17:27] immediately."
[17:28] >> Yes, because they feel that answering
[17:30] someone's question is a very serious
[17:33] matter, so they usually like to keep
[17:35] their conversations very casual.
[17:39] >> For instance, if you ask for their
[17:42] opinion, they might say, "It doesn't
[17:44] look bad," but what they actually mean
[17:47] is "
[17:48] >> It's not very good."
[17:50] >> It’s not good, so they stall for now.
[17:52] But when you talk about taking girls
[17:54] out to dinner, I think it’s sometimes
[17:55] even more troublesome than with
[17:56] Europeans; Chinese people,
[17:58] >> But in China, I don't think there's any
[17:59] problem that can't be solved over a
[18:01] meal.
[18:01] >> If one meal can't solve it, then two
[18:03] meals will. Yes, that’s how it is,
[18:05] especially when it comes to things like
[18:07] blind dates; basically, it’s all
[18:09] settled at the dinner table.
[18:11] >> At the very least, you’ll be able to
[18:13] get to know each other very, very well.
[18:16] >> I’ve acted as a matchmaker many times
[18:18] like that. Actually, it’s just that
[18:22] ...
[18:23] >> The success rate isn't particularly
[18:26] high, but they will definitely interact
[18:28] , unlike in Japan.
[18:30] >> But there are also people who are more
[18:33] cautious, like Uncle Quan.
[18:35] >> Mm.
[18:36] >> The screenwriter who wrote "The Cliff,"
[18:38] I’ve introduced him to people many
[18:39] times.
[18:40] >> He just loves drinking too much. Mm.
[18:44] >> Like when we’d say, "Let's go to
[18:46] another place to keep drinking," and
[18:48] I'd tell him, "You take the girl home,"
[18:50] but he’d say, "No,
[18:53] >> where are you guys going to drink?
[18:56] Don't leave me out, I'm coming with you
[18:58] ."
[18:59] >> So that makes it really difficult, oh
[19:02] my god.
[19:03] >> Going on a blind date like that.
[19:05] >> So, you mentioned these dinner
[19:06] gatherings; sometimes I really feel
[19:08] that, whether it’s getting things
[19:10] done or whatever, you just have to get
[19:12] people to eat; it seems for Chinese
[19:14] people, they really believe that just
[19:16] having a meal...
[19:16] >> I don't understand, these matters have
[19:19] principles; how can just inviting
[19:21] someone to dinner resolve anything?
[19:24] >> Uh, how should I put it? Uh, you're
[19:28] face-to-face.
[19:29] >> Mm.
[19:33] >> But in regular settings, it might be
[19:35] too formal, or things you can't say
[19:38] otherwise might come out under the
[19:40] influence of alcohol, which is often
[19:42] more accepted, so organizing a dinner
[19:45] is always the hardest thing to do. Why
[19:49] is it hard?
[19:50] >> It's hard because, for example, when
[19:52] intellectuals eat together.
[19:54] >> Who doesn't get along with whom.
[19:56] >> Right.
[19:57] >> They can't even eat at the same table.
[19:59] I really once, I used to organize
[20:01] dinner parties for older men for about
[20:04] a year, but I eventually resigned
[20:06] firmly. I literally watched a guy
[20:09] eating like this, just facing away from
[20:11] the person next to him for the entire
[20:14] night, just to show he was ignoring
[20:16] them. Even worse, what led to my direct
[20:20] resignation was that I invited one of
[20:22] his...
[20:23] >> three ex-girlfriends
[20:25] >> to the dinner.
[20:26] >> I organized an event, and I had no idea
[20:28] your cultural circles were so chaotic,
[20:30] you know?
[20:30] >> Oh, they are just truly chaotic. I
[20:33] really look down on that.
[20:36] >> Later, even those who came in
[20:38] afterwards, and at that time, what was
[20:41] the situation like?
[20:43] >> Eventually, a girl even cried, and it
[20:45] was a complete mess on the spot.
[20:47] >> Was his current girlfriend there?
[20:49] >> Yes, she was there. He brought his
[20:51] current girlfriend, right. I was so
[20:54] naive to organize it. I’m not a
[20:57] gossipy person at all, so I had no idea
[21:00] about all that past history.
[21:03] >> This makes me feel that being a person
[21:05] in Beijing, I sometimes feel a bit
[21:08] tired, you know? Because I feel I have
[21:10] to stay sharp and keep my wits about me
[21:12] . Sometimes, by comparison, look at
[21:14] what they say, for example, it's better
[21:15] in Shenzhen. It seems more relaxed,
[21:17] like there's no drama between people.
[21:20] In Beijing, I always feel I have to—
[21:21] more than in Hong Kong or anywhere else
[21:23] —be a bit smarter, because truly,
[21:25] this person can't meet that person here
[21:27] . You don't know—one time we were at
[21:29] a table. We were eating, and there was
[21:31] this Chinese-American actress from
[21:32] Hollywood. Americans are actually quite
[21:35] oblivious, you know? She thought
[21:37] everyone was friends. She got a call
[21:38] saying, "Hey, we are so-and-so," and
[21:40] the other side said, "Come over to our
[21:42] place to hang out." She said, "Sure,"
[21:44] and promised everyone would go after
[21:46] dinner.
[21:46] >> But in the end, after dinner, most
[21:48] people left, and only she went. She was
[21:50] like, "What is going on with you guys?"
[21:52] >> Then, an elder next to her said, "You
[21:54] just came back from America and you
[21:56] don't know. In Beijing, not everyone
[21:59] can see everyone. Some people just
[22:01] don't get along; they absolutely can't.
[22:04] " It means you have to keep your
[22:06] emotional intelligence up; you really
[22:07] have to be a people person. You have to
[22:09] read the room, because sometimes
[22:11] between two people, their expressions
[22:13] ...
[22:13] >> You can just feel there's something off
[22:15] between them.
[22:16] >> As a writer, don't you have that sense?
[22:18] >> I don't attend dinner parties because I
[22:20] prefer to eat at home. So I listen to
[22:22] these dinner party stories and I find
[22:24] them really enjoyable, like I was
[22:26] actually there. Because when I do
[22:28] attend, I just eat, so many people
[22:30] claim to know me, but maybe we were
[22:32] just at the same dinner. I just eat and
[22:34] leave, that’s how it is.
[22:36] >> So, I really enjoy listening to these
[22:38] stories.
[22:39] >> But I think as a writer, a dining place
[22:42] is a great spot to understand life.
[22:45] >> Take me, just take me along.
[22:47] >> No, other than this kind of dinner
[22:49] party, hmm.
[22:50] >> The opposite of a group dinner is
[22:53] eating alone.
[22:53] >> I, I person...
[22:56] >> I really like it. I especially like
[22:59] eating alone, just listening to the
[23:01] people next to me chatting.
[23:03] >> And, and you immediately know when you
[23:05] go to different places; if they are
[23:07] talking about politics, it must be
[23:09] Beijing.
[23:09] >> Right.
[23:12] >> If you are talking about business,
[23:14] it’s Shanghai or Zhejiang, right,
[23:16] like stocks and things, it definitely
[23:18] would be there.
[23:20] >> And I think for Chinese people, in some
[23:23] aspects, for example, it's very awkward
[23:25] when asking for a favor.
[23:26] >> Hmm. Look, during this meal, not a
[23:29] single word was mentioned, though
[23:31] everyone had this on their mind, but
[23:33] they just kept chatting aimlessly.
[23:35] Often it’s right before the check
[23:36] comes, when they can't hold back
[23:38] anymore, then they drop a few words.
[23:40] Sometimes I feel like, look, it seems
[23:43] like they’re just waiting to bring it
[23:45] up now. It’s too impolite.
[23:47] >> It’s simply called impolite.
[23:50] >> Everyone has been talking nonsense the
[23:51] whole time, but I find these types of
[23:53] dinner parties quite boring, since
[23:55] everyone knows what’s going on.
[23:56] >> However, a dinner party reveals a
[23:59] person's character the best, like the
[24:01] speed at which they use their
[24:03] chopsticks.
[24:05] >> How long they look at the dishes is
[24:07] also a test of a person.
[24:10] >> If they look, or how long they look,
[24:12] what does that indicate?
[24:14] >> It means this person is definitely very
[24:16] picky.
[24:17] >> Hmm.
[24:18] >> Which piece they look at, uh.
[24:20] >> Which part is the leg, which part is
[24:22] the best.
[24:23] >> Yes, yes, exactly.
[24:25] >> There was this former bandit who used
[24:28] to talk about eating fish.
[24:29] >> Hmm.
[24:30] >> He would kidnap a child.
[24:32] >> Hmm.
[24:33] >> Starve them for three days.
[24:35] >> Hmm.
[24:36] >> Then prepare a fish for them. If the
[24:38] child ate the meat from the back,
[24:39] picking out the big chunks, it was a
[24:41] poor kid, so they'd let him go. Hmm.
[24:43] >> If he immediately dug into the fish
[24:45] belly.
[24:46] >> Hmm.
[24:47] >> That one has to be held for a few days.
[24:49] >> Hmm.
[24:50] >> If he immediately went for the meat on
[24:51] the cheeks or the head.
[24:52] >> The first chopstick grab was that
[24:54] tender crescent-shaped meat.
[24:56] >> His family wouldn't be able to get him
[24:58] back without going bankrupt, because he
[25:00] was the most spoiled child in the
[25:01] family.
[25:02] >> Hmm.
[25:03] >> Oh.
[25:05] >> But hearing you say this, I actually
[25:07] recalled chatting with a friend the
[25:09] other day who works in the service
[25:11] industry in China, and he had a real
[25:13] insight. He said no matter how
[25:15] exquisite or how well I do things,
[25:18] it’s useless.
[25:19] >> He said he feels that Chinese customers
[25:22] don't really care.
[25:23] >> Is what I'm saying right? Do you...
[25:26] >> Do you understand? He said sometimes I
[25:28] carefully design something, but they
[25:29] don't appreciate it at all.
[25:31] >> What he makes is rare. Also, if no one
[25:33] praises the food, then such a dinner
[25:35] gathering is rare; unless it’s
[25:37] friends, people don't praise the food,
[25:39] which is quite different from dining in
[25:41] Japan. In Japan, not praising the food
[25:43] is a very rare and strange thing to do.
[25:46] Does he make Western food?
[25:48] >> Yes, yes he does; well, to be precise,
[25:51] true gourmets take three generations to
[25:53] cultivate.
[25:54] >> We’ve only had enough to eat for less
[25:56] than thirty years.
[25:58] >> Hmm, that might be a very, very
[26:01] important reason. And another thing is,
[26:08] I often get asked this question, asking
[26:11] if our Chinese cuisine is superior to
[26:13] the West—everyone seems to have this
[26:16] misconception.
[26:20] >> They think it’s far superior, yes.
[26:23] >> In reality, you only get great food
[26:26] when you have picky customers. Hmm, yes
[26:30] .
[26:30] >> And
[26:31] >> We are all too—if you look at China,
[26:34] Northerners are too easygoing, too
[26:36] uncritical, and too forgiving; even if
[26:39] it's made poorly, it’s just forgotten
[26:41] , but
[26:42] >> In the South—I’m in Beijing, for
[26:44] example, if I go to the Northeast
[26:46] >> Hmm.
[26:47] >> A friend invites me to eat, says where
[26:49] to go, so we go there; everyone is
[26:51] especially accommodating. But if I go
[26:53] to Guangzhou, say, and suggest a place
[26:55] to eat, people will fiercely object,
[26:58] saying, "How can we eat there?" And if
[27:00] I suggest another place, it might get
[27:03] rejected by many again.
[27:05] >> You just feel that Cantonese people are
[27:07] incredibly happy; they have so many
[27:09] choices, and everyone has their own
[27:11] specific taste, just like a
[27:13] >> Young woman standing in front of a
[27:16] closet full of clothes saying she has
[27:18] nothing to wear—it's that kind of
[27:21] happiness, oh my.
[27:22] >> So you see, it's really in Guangzhou.
[27:25] >> Hmm.
[27:26] >> It’s not really in Beijing.
[27:28] >> Hmm.
[27:29] >> Actually, Beijing is a place where so
[27:32] many people converge.
[27:33] >> It has everything to do with whether
[27:35] the diners are picky or not. There is
[27:38] another reason, and that is that I
[27:40] think our different countries and
[27:42] cultures have different attitudes
[27:44] toward food sometimes; for instance, as
[27:46] I mentioned before, why I think my
[27:48] friend’s idea to host a three-star
[27:50] Michelin
[27:51] >> Gourmet tour would fail.
[27:53] >> Hmm.
[27:54] >> The reason is simple, because he
[27:56] himself felt it was embarrassing; he
[27:58] put in a lot of effort to book the top
[28:00] spots in Paris and Spain that are
[28:01] extremely hard to reserve, perhaps
[28:03] needing to book a year in advance,
[28:05] >> And then packed it with one a day, one
[28:08] every day. Then that group of people
[28:10] would go in chatting and making a loud
[28:11] ruckus every day, and regardless of
[28:13] them being impolite, the main thing is
[28:15] that the guests themselves were all
[28:16] unsatisfied, hmm.
[28:17] >> The dishes were served so slowly that
[28:19] we spent nearly four or five hours
[28:21] eating, and we couldn't even complain;
[28:22] plus, the food wasn't good, mostly just
[28:24] unsatisfying.
[28:25] >> Right.
[28:26] >> In the end, everyone was unhappy—the
[28:28] restaurant was unhappy, and the guests
[28:30] were unhappy. I later analyzed the
[28:32] reasons with him, and one is that the
[28:35] way Chinese people approach dining—
[28:37] our attitude and methods—is quite
[28:39] different from what you see in Japan or
[28:42] the West. For example, we sit together
[28:45] at one table, and all the dishes are
[28:47] laid out before we even pick up our
[28:49] chopsticks.
[28:50] >> Our entire state of mind is relaxed and
[28:53] flexible.
[28:54] >> Right.
[28:55] >> Like, if I want to stop talking to eat,
[28:57] I just pick up my chopsticks and have a
[28:59] bite.
[28:59] >> Or maybe just have a few bites. Mm.
[29:02] >> This kind of meal can be as long or as
[29:04] short as you like; you can finish in an
[29:06] hour, or you can take five hours.
[29:07] >> Mm. But for Westerners or the Japanese,
[29:11] dishes come one by one; you can't just
[29:14] put your chopsticks down and walk off,
[29:16] right? That’s not how we do things in
[29:19] China.
[29:20] >> I just went to Shijiazhuang.
[29:23] >> Exactly. People there basically expect
[29:26] you to sit still. I had friends with me
[29:28] , and when I came back, I wondered—if
[29:30] they serve over a dozen courses one
[29:32] after another, how are you supposed to
[29:34] wait? What do you do? It just ends up
[29:37] being very awkward. For instance, if
[29:39] someone keeps standing up to offer a
[29:40] toast, while the other side is finished
[29:42] and just waiting for you for half an
[29:44] hour. And that, I think, shows that the
[29:46] cultures are just too different.
[29:48] Another point is that when Westerners
[29:50] eat at a Michelin-starred restaurant or
[29:53] the Japanese go to their high-end
[29:55] places, they treat it like attending a
[29:58] classical concert—very solemn.
[30:00] >> Exactly. You spend the whole day doing
[30:03] nothing else, just waiting for the
[30:06] evening. Our attitude is that dining
[30:08] should be relaxing, but they are the
[30:11] opposite; they are very serious and
[30:13] tense. Their whole state of mind is
[30:16] hyper-focused, and with modern
[30:18] molecular gastronomy or those delicate
[30:20] dishes, where one plate has a dozen
[30:23] ingredients and complex methods, you
[30:25] have to pay extreme attention just to
[30:28] taste the food.
[30:29] >> So, as Teacher Chen mentioned regarding
[30:31] these dinner gatherings, it shows that
[30:32] Chinese people are very particular
[30:34] about the underlying meaning, like the
[30:35] saying, "The effort lies outside the
[30:37] poem," or "The intent is not on the
[30:39] wine."
[30:39] >> Our intent has never really been about
[30:41] the act of eating itself. When he's out
[30:43] at dinner, his eyes are fixed on the
[30:44] girl, right? How could he possibly
[30:46] taste his food? You know what I mean,
[30:48] it's like when we're at a high-end
[30:50] Western restaurant, you feel like it's
[30:52] really like watching a performance,
[30:54] appreciating a show, it’s that kind
[30:55] of taste, but.
[30:56] >> People will discuss the food,
[30:58] >> You know, it's not that we necessarily
[31:01] have to spend a lot, but a lot of the
[31:03] time, take hotels for example,
[31:05] >> For many wealthy people, I've realized,
[31:07] there's really no need for them to stay
[31:09] in hotels.
[31:10] >> They are often first-generation
[31:11] entrepreneurs who grew up as farmers,
[31:13] and they still retain their rather
[31:15] rough living habits to this day.
[31:16] >> For them, honestly, staying in a
[31:18] five-star hotel is a waste; they might
[31:20] as well be in a budget hostel, they're
[31:21] the same to them, you know, because
[31:23] they don't care about the bed or how
[31:25] firm it is. You see, many people don't
[31:27] even realize this; often when we're
[31:30] sitting at the dinner table, I
[31:32] sometimes think, oh, this is so
[31:34] wonderful, but then there are these
[31:36] bosses in Hong Kong who spend hundreds
[31:39] of thousands on a single meal, yet I
[31:41] feel sorry for them. They're just
[31:44] clinking glasses, "Hey, buddy, this and
[31:47] that, I’m about to make hundreds of
[31:49] millions," while downing drinks, what
[31:51] are they even eating? I had a friend
[31:54] the other day, my friend is over 50,
[31:57] and his son loves whisky.
[31:59] >> Yeah,
[32:00] >> He kept some whisky, he took us to his
[32:02] place and just poured it all out.
[32:05] >> Then his son came back and yelled at us
[32:08] old guys, telling us not to drink his
[32:10] stuff. Later his son said, "It's not
[32:12] that I don't want the uncles to drink
[32:14] it, it's just that you don't understand
[32:16] ; this is such good stuff I brought
[32:18] from Scotland, you can't appreciate it
[32:20] at all, you're just wasting it."
[32:21] >> I now feel that a lot of fine food is
[32:23] wasted just like that.
[32:24] >> And then there's the attitude people
[32:26] have behind the scenes toward the chefs
[32:28] ,
[32:28] >> It's so different, so disrespectful.
[32:30] >> Of course, things are much better now,
[32:32] much better, I think they’ve done a
[32:34] great service, for example, like you
[32:36] said, we don't usually thank the chef,
[32:37] right? Let me give you an example. Once
[32:41] I invited a friend, a few friends, to
[32:43] come to Hong Kong to see me, and I took
[32:45] them out to dinner; some of them were
[32:47] from the entertainment industry, famous
[32:49] stars and such, also dining there. And
[32:53] so, I chose a very good restaurant for
[32:56] them. The head chef was someone who had
[32:58] retired from the business a few years
[33:01] ago. During those days he came back to
[33:03] cook, and I also know him—he is
[33:04] highly respected by Hong Kong people,
[33:06] one of the top masters of Cantonese
[33:08] cuisine in Hong Kong. Anyway, after
[33:10] finishing the meal, I came out. Then he
[33:13] saw me; he is someone who knows me, and
[33:14] he came over: "Long time no see, come
[33:16] on, let's take a photo together, let's
[33:18] take a photo." I was with a few friends
[33:20] who didn't really know who he was. But
[33:22] those companions made me very
[33:24] embarrassed; his manager immediately
[33:26] asked, "You're not going to post this
[33:28] on WeChat, are you?" This, no...Because
[33:30] their whole concept was: if a chef
[33:32] takes a photo with you, are you
[33:34] planning to put it on the wall or
[33:36] something? They never thought that this
[33:38] person is a deity to us.
[33:40] >> Our attitude is like this: for example,
[33:42] once in Europe, we met some friends,
[33:44] and they said, "This is a three-star
[33:47] chef from somewhere, how amazing he is.
[33:49] " We should be the ones scrambling to
[33:51] take a photo with him.
[33:52] >> Instead of the other way around; the
[33:54] whole concept, the concept regarding
[33:56] chefs here is just too different, yes.
[33:59] I have seen foreign heads of state
[34:02] twice.
[34:03] >> Once was Austria,
[34:05] >> Mm.
[34:06] >> Once was Sweden.
[34:08] >> Mm.
[34:09] >> After the meal. They would go out to
[34:11] give gifts.
[34:12] >> Mm.
[34:13] >> But you know, sometimes in Beijing, or
[34:16] in many places in China, there is a
[34:18] phenomenon: why does a restaurant...
[34:20] >> Suddenly stop tasting good after a
[34:22] while? The biggest problem, I think, is
[34:26] why does the taste sometimes change?
[34:28] >> I want to bring up a topic, which is
[34:31] that actually making good food and
[34:33] doing business are...
[34:35] >> Two different pulls.
[34:37] >> When you are desperately focused on
[34:39] making great food, you might not be
[34:41] making any money.
[34:41] >> Mm.
[34:43] >> Or your prices are extremely high. And
[34:46] when you've made great food and many
[34:48] people come, and they are desperately
[34:51] waiting for a table, you think, "Oh,
[34:53] why shouldn't I..."
[34:54] >> Right.
[34:55] >> Mm.
[34:56] >> Open a branch.
[34:58] >> You can't control it, you can't control
[34:59] the overall quality.
[35:00] >> A lot of it might be things that have
[35:02] little to do with dining.
[35:04] >> For example...
[35:05] >> This person cooks very well, and they
[35:08] carve that phoenix so vividly; yes, yes
[35:11] , exactly.
[35:12] >> What I hate most is when I participate
[35:14] in international culinary competitions,
[35:16] people say, "If we give first place to
[35:18] China, look at how much effort they
[35:20] spent carving this big phoenix; we'll
[35:22] just start judging from second place."
[35:24] Oh, so in Hebei, we have an old saying:
[35:27] "A donkey's dung is shiny on the
[35:29] outside"—it's all just superficial
[35:31] work. I...
[35:32] >> Whenever I encounter a restaurant that
[35:34] carves dragons or phoenixes for me, I
[35:35] know it's over; you've spent all your
[35:37] effort on the wrong things. About that
[35:39] studio of ours, did I even get there at
[35:41] all? Back when we were in Beijing, I
[35:43] said, "Should I go grab some zhajiang
[35:44] noodles?" The place had eighteen tiers
[35:46] of staff; from the entrance, it was
[35:47] just, "Yes, sir, yes, sir," and "What
[35:49] is your surname?" I said, "My surname
[35:51] is Dou." Good grief, past the second
[35:53] gate, the third gate, they kept
[35:54] shouting it all the way in. Passing
[35:56] through, snap, snap, snap, you go
[35:57] through eighteen gates to a tiny
[35:59] private room—so dramatic, just for a
[36:01] bowl of noodles. The soybean paste
[36:03] itself, I felt it was like it had
[36:05] solidified. I could tell you were
[36:08] saying it was stuck, and these people
[36:10] were all dressed like eunuchs, offering
[36:13] to reheat it. But I really, really am
[36:17] very curious. Since I’m always in
[36:19] Beijing, I stay there often, but I
[36:22] rarely go out to eat. I’m either at
[36:25] the company or, lately, I’ve fallen
[36:27] to the point of just ordering room
[36:29] service at the hotel. Why? I don’t
[36:34] know. So unless I look for more
[36:37] opportunities to eat with others, I
[36:40] find it too difficult. Beijing is
[36:42] clearly the capital, people from
[36:44] everywhere are here, and in theory, all
[36:47] sorts of resources, including wealth,
[36:49] are here too. But I find it hard to
[36:52] just stumble upon a place on the street
[36:54] ; it's really too rare.
[36:56] >> But it’s much better in the South. I
[36:59] remember Wang Sanbiao once called me
[37:01] when he was in Chengdu. I asked him
[37:03] where he was staying. I had no idea
[37:05] where that place even was. I said, "Go
[37:07] downstairs now, walk forward, are there
[37:08] any restaurants ahead?" He said, "Yes."
[37:11] I told him, "Go eat at the second one
[37:12] you see." He ended up writing a long
[37:14] blog post about how good Xiaojin’s
[37:16] recommendation was. The density of
[37:17] restaurants there is just so high.
[37:19] >> I get the sense from our conversation
[37:21] that you seem to think...
[37:23] >> Northerners have coarser tastes, while
[37:25] Southerners are relatively more refined
[37:28] .
[37:28] >> That’s been the case since the Han
[37:30] Dynasty. Oh, the Han Dynasty built
[37:35] their capital in Chang'an, but if you
[37:38] look at the population maps made by
[37:40] Professor Jianxiong, you’ll know...
[37:43] >> There were more people in the South.
[37:45] >> Where was the GDP? In the middle and
[37:48] lower reaches of the Yangtze River.
[37:50] There’s no way around it, because one
[37:52] harvest a year—food and agricultural
[37:55] civilization...
[37:56] >> Exactly.
[37:57] >> Are inseparable. The difference between
[38:00] one harvest a year, three harvests
[38:02] every two years, and two harvests a
[38:04] year is truly worlds apart in terms of
[38:06] quality.
[38:07] >> Yeah, that analysis makes sense.
[38:09] Generally speaking, including places
[38:11] like Jiangnan in the south, for
[38:13] Southern scholars, it implies a more
[38:15] nuanced, more delicate sensibility.
[38:17] >> Right, and I think even in places that
[38:19] aren't traditionally considered very
[38:21] wealthy, for example, our southern
[38:22] cities like Chaozhou.
[38:23] >> Mm. It's very hard to find anything
[38:27] that tastes bad there.
[38:28] >> Chaozhou is a place where, if someone
[38:30] claims to be a gourmet but hasn't been
[38:33] to Shantou, well, they aren't a real
[38:35] gourmet at all, because it has
[38:37] preserved the legacy of China,
[38:39] equivalent to the traditions of Kaifeng
[38:41] ,
[38:45] >> and there are many layers, such as raw
[38:48] fish slices, which date back to the Qin
[38:51] Dynasty, or fermented wine, which is
[38:53] from the Song Dynasty, or like, this,
[38:56] this, the snow-
[39:00] >> That's from the Song Dynasty; you can
[39:02] really see all these layers, everything
[39:04] is there.
[39:05] >> Wait, so do you mean the flavors we eat
[39:07] today are the same as those from
[39:08] ancient times, or is there a difference
[39:10] ?
[39:10] >> There are people who specialize in this
[39:12] , and if we go into it today, it will
[39:14] get way too complicated, but it is a
[39:16] uniquely precious island of culture.
[39:18] >> Yes, Shantou is a truly precious gem of
[39:21] Chinese cuisine. Incredible, absolutely
[39:23] incredible.
[39:24] >> That taro paste is so sweet!
[39:27] >> And besides, I think in 2017 China is
[39:30] bound to ruin something again. I'm
[39:32] worried because we always have a food
[39:34] trend every year, from crayfish to
[39:36] whatever else.
[39:37] >> I know what you mean, exactly.
[39:39] >> With this Chaozhou trend you're talking
[39:41] about, I feel there's a conspiracy
[39:43] behind it.
[39:43] >> Yeah, a meat slicer now makes 30,000
[39:45] yuan a month.
[39:46] >> Ah.
[39:47] >> Ah.
[39:48] >> Mm.
[39:49] >> That's higher than my salary. What kind
[39:51] of conspiracy do you think it is?
[39:53] >> I don't think it's natural for it to be
[39:55] hyped up this high; there's just too
[39:57] much manipulation involved.
[39:59] >> Like us, since we eat a bit more, I can
[40:01] tell if the meat is actually from
[40:04] Shantou.
[40:04] >> Mm.
[40:06] >> This is the taste of yellow cattle.
[40:08] >> Mm.
[40:09] >> And this beef is just water-injected
[40:12] beef. Oh, the price difference is
[40:14] actually huge, but when they sell it,
[40:17] it's all cut into pieces and the
[40:19] texture looks roughly the same. The
[40:21] waters here are too deep, so...
[40:24] >> You're so right, you're absolutely
[40:26] right.
[40:27] >> Last year they ruined Chongqing noodles
[40:29] , completely ruined them.
[40:31] >> Every street was full of Chongqing
[40:32] noodles, and now it's finally this
[40:34] beef's turn. Mm, that's why I think
[40:36] people say that in China, you really
[40:38] have to live like an expert.
[40:40] >> In every aspect of life, people are
[40:42] either being cheated or being played
[40:45] for fools. I feel that things related
[40:47] to the sense of taste are just too easy
[40:49] to manipulate; take drinking tea, for
[40:51] instance, we all know how that goes. It
[40:53] is not an illusion, you know. It’s
[40:55] not an illusion; it’s truly a system
[40:57] of refined taste. Don't you think? At
[40:59] first, you can’t taste anything, but
[41:02] as you get deeper into it, you really
[41:04] can distinguish between a Hongyin or a
[41:06] Songpin; you develop this system of
[41:08] taste. But most people can't tell the
[41:10] difference at all. For those who can't,
[41:12] when you go to a tea shop, you'll
[41:14] believe whatever they tell you and pay
[41:16] whatever price they ask, and the same
[41:17] goes for all kinds of food. I've also
[41:19] noticed, take Beijing Opera for example
[41:21] , why do people say it’s declining?
[41:23] The people who appreciate it are gone.
[41:25] Right.
[41:26] >> Exactly, if you can’t tell what’s
[41:27] good or even know why it’s good, then
[41:29] it’s over. So I feel that when it
[41:31] comes to the way of food and drink,
[41:33] I’ve had several friends in the
[41:35] industry recently, and I have to say, I
[41:37] really feel quite emotional about it.
[41:39] Is it like this in every industry in
[41:41] China right now? Are we heading towards
[41:43] a country where bad money drives out
[41:45] the good? I used to believe that doing
[41:48] things seriously and striving for the
[41:50] best, with every detail reflecting your
[41:52] sincerity, could never be the wrong
[41:54] approach.
[41:55] >> But from a profit-driven, money-making
[41:57] perspective, it actually is wrong, and
[41:59] it just doesn't make money. In the end,
[42:02] you put all your heart and money into
[42:04] it, but I can't even keep it running,
[42:06] while the place across the street,
[42:09] which is just cheap and gimmicky, makes
[42:11] a fortune.
[42:12] >> They get rich and open branches. So I
[42:14] wonder, will this eventually lead to a
[42:17] situation where the market is dominated
[42:19] by people who have no taste and can't
[42:21] tell the good from the bad?
[42:22] >> So, overall, do you think the number of
[42:24] good restaurants in China has increased
[42:26] or decreased?
[42:27] >> Overall, it has definitely increased,
[42:29] there's no question about that. If you
[42:31] look at the official figures, they are
[42:34] absolutely staggering.
[42:35] >> It contributes very, very significantly
[42:38] to GDP growth.
[42:39] >> And another thing is, never worry.
[42:42] There are always hidden masters among
[42:44] the people.
[42:45] >> No matter where I go, I can always find
[42:48] something surprisingly delicious to eat
[42:50] . Just two days ago, during the
[42:54] Guangzhou TV Festival, I had a meal in
[42:57] Panyu.
[42:58] >> Mm-hmm.
[43:00] >> Everyone was there, it was a shabby
[43:02] street, and there were easily a hundred
[43:04] people.
[43:06] >> Everyone was just waiting there for a
[43:08] table to clear. There’s offal over
[43:10] there; if there’s offal congee, you
[43:12] just wait. I waited from 10:00 until
[43:15] 12:30. When the fresh batch arrived,
[43:18] people rushed for it.
[43:19] >> What was that exactly? Can you describe
[43:22] it?
[43:23] >> It’s too bloody. I can put it this
[43:26] way: even the fresh pig intestines were
[43:30] still moving. Oh my god.
[43:34] >> It was truly fresh, and it was so
[43:37] delicious—simply unrivaled.
[43:40] >> That’s not common. It makes me wonder
[43:42] if people say the Chinese are the
[43:44] cruelest people on earth. Yes, no, but
[43:46] it has to be eaten sooner or later;
[43:48] it's just eating meat while it’s
[43:50] fresh.
[43:51] >> Right, exactly. Like in Japan, they eat
[43:54] it raw right after slaughter.
[43:56] >> Foreigners show respect for meat
[43:58] through aging.
[44:00] >> Right. Hmm.
[44:02] >> Chinese show respect for meat by
[44:04] keeping it fresh. It’s just that it
[44:07] must be fresh.
[44:09] >> Regarding whether this is cruel or not
[44:12] ...That’s true, but people who eat
[44:15] offal are actually the most frugal
[44:17] people. Exactly. You aren’t being
[44:20] wasteful.
[44:21] >> You aren't being wasteful; you eat
[44:23] everything. I think that’s the right
[44:24] attitude.
[44:25] >> It’s the same all over the world; if
[44:27] you measure this world...
[44:28] >> Offal is the heart of it, right?
[44:30] >> Yes, exactly. Even Japan has very
[44:33] delicious offal.
[44:34] >> And what I hear you talking about is
[44:36] going to the countryside.
[44:37] >> The best things are found among the
[44:39] common people.
[44:39] >> I also don't think it's in big-city
[44:41] restaurants.
[44:42] >> Oh, just think about how expensive the
[44:44] storefront rent is.
[44:46] >> Hmm.
[44:47] >> It makes it impossible to survive.
[44:49] >> Hmm.
[44:50] >> You really, once you reach this level,
[44:53] um. Let me tell you a rather
[44:55] extraordinary story from the time of
[44:58] the earthquake. I went to Qingchuan to
[45:01] deliver...
[45:03] >> supplies.
[45:04] >> After the road was cut off, I was
[45:06] waiting there.
[45:07] >> In front of a school, there was a shop
[45:10] selling spicy intestines.
[45:11] >> Hmm.
[45:13] >> It had just been served when an
[45:15] earthquake hit.
[45:17] >> Oh, an earthquake?
[45:19] >> Yes, I had just taken one bite. It was
[45:22] so delicious, and although everyone
[45:25] else ran out, I thought, "If I'm going
[45:27] to die, I'd rather die eating this." So
[45:30] I went back in. Shocking. It was
[45:34] delicious enough to make you risk your
[45:37] life.
[45:38] >> The most delicious, the ultimate
[45:40] delicacy is definitely hidden in the
[45:43] deep mountains. Fortunately, people
[45:45] have enjoyed traveling to the
[45:47] countryside and taking road trips these
[45:49] years.
[45:50] >> You can always find it. I mean, if you
[45:53] don't believe me, next time you go to
[45:55] Hangzhou...Go to a county called Kaihua
[45:57] , at the source of the Qiantang River.
[46:00] >> There’s a small restaurant on the
[46:02] mountainside.
[46:03] >> Hmm.
[46:04] >> You don't even need to order; just tell
[46:05] them to bring you two random dishes.
[46:07] Every dish is delicious. I asked the
[46:09] owner, "Why don't you open in Hangzhou?
[46:11] " He said it wouldn't be the same in
[46:13] Hangzhou.
[46:13] >> Back then, it was called the Dongfeng
[46:15] Market, where everyone would sit down
[46:16] —it was bustling.
[46:17] >> So Master Ma sighed deeply, wondering
[46:19] how social trends have become so good.
[46:21] >> No, let me tell you, I’ll try to
[46:22] interpret this, but I'm just
[46:24] speculating here. The girl who wanted
[46:26] to pay seems to be a migrant worker in
[46:28] this city; they used to be best friends
[46:30] , but the girl being treated seems to
[46:32] be a college student there. Actually,
[46:34] the reason she was so eager to pay in
[46:36] the end—and those other girls, the
[46:38] premise is that they were all drunk.
[46:40] Mainly because they were drunk.
[46:42] >> Right, mainly drunk, but in this
[46:44] drunkenness, there’s a sense of not
[46:46] being truly drunk.
[46:47] >> Money—those few girls thought she
[46:49] didn't have money because she was just
[46:51] working here.
[46:51] >> I’m just guessing, but she might have
[46:54] had some pride, thinking, "Hey, how can
[46:56] you say I don't have money?""Can't I
[46:58] pay the bill?" They said, "You don't,
[47:00] you're just working here, we'll pay,
[47:02] we'll pay."
[47:03] >> When I read the news, I first thought
[47:05] of our younger days, of these
[47:06] experiences of skipping out on the bill
[47:08] . I’ve had this happen countless
[47:10] times. The first time was in Shenzhen.
[47:12] >> We were having a great feast, but when
[47:14] it was time to pay, the person who
[47:16] invited us couldn't be found.
[47:17] >> Once they couldn't be found, someone
[47:18] quick-witted—you know, there’s
[47:20] always someone quick-witted—would say
[47:21] , "Oh, I have an emergency at home, I
[47:22] have to go first." Then, as things went
[47:24] on, someone suddenly realized, "Wait,
[47:26] no one can leave, if we all leave, what
[47:27] happens?" And then that person just
[47:29] wouldn't come back. Master Ma mentioned
[47:30] this, and I feel like I've seen it on
[47:32] the news somewhere.
[47:33] >> Yes, this is recent news.
[47:35] >> I just think, for one thing, they
[47:36] definitely drank way too much. Beyond
[47:38] drinking too much, that doesn't count.
[47:41] It seems not many young people nowadays
[47:43] have one person pay the bill like that,
[47:45] because I see that the post-80s and 90s
[47:48] generations all go Dutch.
[47:50] >> They all go Dutch, and I heard that
[47:52] with WeChat Pay now—Shanghainese
[47:55] people always liked going Dutch—but
[47:57] now, the post-80s and 90s generation,
[47:59] when they split a bill, for example,
[48:02] down to the cents, like four people
[48:04] eating together. Because of WeChat,
[48:07] it’s even clearer now. Even down to
[48:09] the decimal points.
[48:10] >> Exactly, before, you still had to deal
[48:13] with loose change and bills, right? I
[48:18] am very curious about their
[48:20] relationship—the four of them—how
[48:22] could they...is it because they aren't
[48:25] in a big city? Or perhaps they still
[48:28] use this approach, like in Ningbo,
[48:30] where they might still be following the
[48:32] older generation, who were all about
[48:34] paying the full bill. Regarding what
[48:36] Mr. Ma just said about people skipping
[48:38] out on the bill, he was dissatisfied.
[48:41] >> But the people I’ve met, who were
[48:43] doing very, very well in business back
[48:45] in the 90s or even the 2000 s—They
[48:48] were always the ones who insisted on
[48:50] paying.
[48:51] >> Yeah.
[48:52] >> They insisted on treating; they
[48:53] wouldn't be happy if anyone else tried
[48:55] to pick up the tab.
[48:55] >> Exactly, I’ve seen more of people
[48:57] fighting to pay the bill.
[48:58] >> And then what happened?
[49:00] >> Some of them eventually hit hard times.
[49:02] For instance, this person was used to
[49:04] eating out every single day. He had to
[49:06] be out every day, and he always
[49:07] insisted on paying, but later his
[49:09] business suffered, and then his friends
[49:11] would treat him to dinner. And I
[49:13] discovered that no matter how much you
[49:15] treated him, he wasn't happy. Because
[49:18] deep down, he wished he had plenty of
[49:20] money to treat you all to dinner every
[49:22] night. So, that’s also a thing. But
[49:26] listening to these young people, the
[49:28] 80s and 90s generations, they all say
[49:30] they share tables when they eat. I’ve
[49:32] noticed that many restaurants in
[49:34] Shanghai have shifted. We like a
[49:37] private room with a round table, but
[49:39] what do these young people like? It’s
[49:42] just about eating, so set meals have
[49:44] become very popular. And then there’s
[49:47] sharing tables. I asked what that meant
[49:49] . For example, three guys over here—
[49:52] From some company. Then at the other
[49:54] side of the table—this is quite
[49:55] common in Guangdong—three female
[49:57] white-collar workers are eating there,
[49:59] and the guys are eating on their side.
[50:00] They don’t have those private rooms.
[50:03] And if they encounter this, since both
[50:06] sides are talking about white-collar
[50:09] work issues, like how bad the boss is,
[50:11] or whatever,
[50:12] >> White-collar workers all talk like that
[50:14] .
[50:15] >> They all talk about commuting or
[50:16] working overtime, that sort of thing.
[50:19] >> Once the other party is there, say,
[50:21] three guys here or four women over
[50:24] there. Both sides start talking more
[50:26] interestingly, as if they are letting
[50:29] the other side know what they’re
[50:31] saying, and the other side gets really
[50:33] fired up too.
[50:34] >> I don’t really get it. I asked, "What
[50:37] is the point of this? Are you hoping to
[50:40] , or—"
[50:40] >> To make a connection.
[50:42] >> Exactly, we don't do that. For us, we
[50:45] just chat for a bit and that’s it, we
[50:47] pay the bill and leave. I just find
[50:49] this younger generation quite unique;
[50:52] they use it as a way to vent.
[50:53] >> Hmm.
[50:54] >> When they hear the other side talking
[50:56] about the same thing, they say the same
[50:58] stuff and get even more energized. How
[50:59] come I feel, Master Ma, that I didn't
[51:02] run into you when I was younger? Back
[51:04] then, I was the type who would rush to
[51:06] pay the bill. A male friend of mine
[51:09] once commented on this, saying, "I've
[51:11] watched you many times; if you always
[51:13] insist on paying, you'll never get
[51:15] married." He said, for a woman, you
[51:18] know, why? He said when everyone is
[51:20] eating together, a woman rushing to pay
[51:22] makes the men lose face.
[51:24] >> He just felt that I would definitely
[51:25] never be able to get married.
[51:27] >> Let me tell you, among young people now
[51:29] , especially those in big cities and
[51:31] particularly in Western society, this
[51:33] idea of men paying the bill is actually
[51:35] changing. Yes.
[51:37] >> Do you understand? There's even a
[51:40] feminist scholar in the UK who said
[51:42] that men paying the bill is essentially
[51:44] a remnant of a discriminatory spirit in
[51:47] Western Europe. But, you know, for us
[51:50] women, there's this underlying
[51:51] implication of treating women as
[51:53] objects; are you a slave owner? Are you
[51:56] a slave owner? You even object to this;
[51:58] however, that is of course a minority
[52:01] opinion. Most women, you see, even with
[52:03] feminism on the rise today, I've looked
[52:05] at the surveys they've conducted. They
[52:07] still feel that if a man doesn't pay
[52:09] the bill, the woman will be very
[52:11] unhappy. Women don't—you don't—but
[52:13] do you know that now, some blind dates
[52:16] are actually like this, you know?
[52:18] >> Hmm.
[52:19] >> After the blind date ends, if you don't
[52:21] necessarily like each other,
[52:23] >> a WeChat message comes over later
[52:25] saying, "It was over 500 yuan, how
[52:27] about we split it in half?"
[52:29] >> And that settles the matter.
[52:31] >> And that settles the matter.
[52:33] >> It’s also said that among young
[52:36] people today, women are usually more
[52:38] proactive than men. More generous.
[52:41] >> On the contrary, for the post-90s
[52:43] generation or whatever, I’ve heard
[52:46] examples, like a boy having a chance
[52:48] encounter with two girls. After the
[52:50] encounter, the prettier girl is still
[52:53] waiting for the boy to pursue her, but
[52:55] now it's said that boys are all "
[52:57] homebodies," lazy, and won't really
[52:59] make any effort to contact you. By the
[53:02] time she thinks of him a month later
[53:04] and feels the boy is actually nice,
[53:06] when she reaches out, he says, "I'm
[53:08] already seeing your friend, we've
[53:09] already started dating." It’s just
[53:11] that boys now are increasingly
[53:13] unwilling, let alone paying the bill or
[53:16] treating people, so this tradition, I
[53:18] feel, is reaching a turning point at
[53:20] this current stage. Now, some girls
[53:22] just say, you really shouldn't hold
[53:25] back when dealing with men. For example
[53:27] , a boy and a girl might earn about the
[53:30] same, and he takes her out to eat; he
[53:32] intends to pay, but as an independent
[53:34] woman today, she says, "No, no, I'll
[53:37] pay." Then he says, "Okay, if you
[53:39] insist, you pay." But for people my age
[53:42] , we still fight to pay the bill.
[53:45] >> In a way, fighting for the bill
[53:46] sometimes signifies something—who's
[53:49] doing well and who isn't; it’s all
[53:51] about "face." Think about it, I
[53:53] remember someone told me about a family
[53:55] dinner in Beijing. It was the first,
[53:58] second, and third uncles, including
[54:00] their wives. In the end, the first
[54:02] uncle insisted on paying, the second
[54:04] uncle grabbed him to stop him because
[54:06] he wanted to pay, and then the third
[54:08] joined in. The three uncles were
[54:10] practically getting into a physical
[54:12] scuffle while the three aunts stood by
[54:14] yelling, "Put the money down, just put
[54:17] it down!" You know, whoever
[54:19] successfully managed to pay the bill,
[54:22] the relatives would all say, "Oh, look
[54:24] at you, you're really doing well."
[54:27] It’s all about that kind of social
[54:30] standing. Do Shanghainese people care
[54:32] about this?
[54:33] >> Of course, they do, but in Shanghai,
[54:35] people usually agree on things
[54:37] beforehand.
[54:38] >> They agree in advance. I don't mean
[54:40] close friends; close friends might just
[54:42] keep a mental note that it’s your
[54:44] turn to treat this time and mine the
[54:46] next. Unless it's the type of person I
[54:48] mentioned who loves to host and gets
[54:50] upset if others pay.
[54:51] >> True, Shanghainese might not always
[54:53] fight over the bill at the table, but
[54:55] they definitely remember exactly who
[54:57] paid for the meal afterward. I heard
[54:59] this growing up—people could remember
[55:01] who bought them a meal years ago and
[55:03] would insist on paying them back, even
[55:05] if they had to bring things from home.
[55:07] >> There was a major oversight in what we
[55:09] just said; there's a time gap involved.
[55:12] The time I mentioned when people didn't
[55:14] like to pay was the 1980s, when only a
[55:16] few people had the money to treat
[55:18] others. Most people were just
[55:20] freeloading.
[55:21] >> Yeah.
[55:22] >> A big meal back then was memorable
[55:24] because I remember once we tried to "
[55:26] run away" from a bill—we didn't
[55:28] actually get away with it, but it was a
[55:31] scary experience.
[55:32] >> It was for a friend who was about to
[55:34] leave for Japan to study. He was flying
[55:36] out the next morning, leaving at the
[55:38] crack of dawn. That night, he brought
[55:40] his girlfriend along to treat everyone
[55:43] to the most expensive beef in Beijing
[55:45] at the time; we had two or three tables
[55:47] , quite the scene. The way that guy was
[55:49] dressed, it really left an impression.
[55:51] He wore these yellow trousers—can you
[55:54] imagine? Bright yellow, with white
[55:56] leather shoes, pointed at both ends.
[55:58] That was it.
[55:59] >> Nanhua Bridge.
[56:00] >> Right, he was going abroad, so he
[56:02] invited everyone out to eat. By 10
[56:04] o'clock, when it was time to pay the
[56:06] bill, he realized he didn't have enough
[56:08] money. When he didn't have enough, he
[56:10] said he was going home to get it.
[56:12] Naturally, no one was going to stop him
[56:14] , so he went home to get the cash. The
[56:16] problem was that the people at the
[56:17] table were happy at first, but then
[56:19] they weren't, because they couldn't
[56:21] leave.
[56:21] >> Maybe it was because everyone felt like
[56:23] they were waiting forever, turning what
[56:25] started as a joyful scene—into
[56:26] something very silent. Very silent.
[56:29] That sort of thing, right? You get what
[56:31] I mean. Because no one wanted to take
[56:32] the fall and pay his bill, so they just
[56:33] had to wait for him to return. He got
[56:35] back after 11 o'clock. Everyone finally
[56:37] breathed a sigh of relief, but the mood
[56:39] just couldn't be recovered.
[56:40] >> It was just a quick "take care" as they
[56:42] sent him off. That was the 80s.
[56:45] Fighting to pay the bill became a thing
[56:47] in the 90s, after the Reform and
[56:49] Opening-up, when people had more money
[56:51] to treat others. That’s the key.
[56:53] >> Speaking of the most exaggerated case,
[56:55] Mr. Ma, your story reminds me of
[56:57] something from an interesting book
[56:59] called "Dreams of Spring."
[57:00] >> Mm.
[57:02] >> It tells of the most outrageous example
[57:05] of paying a bill. There was a wealthy
[57:08] young man in Shanghai named Ye
[57:10] Zhongfang, whose father, Ye Chengzong,
[57:13] actually founded a middle school in
[57:15] Shanghai.
[57:18] >> He was a true "rich second generation."
[57:23] He once hosted a dinner at the Atlantic
[57:25] Restaurant during the dead of winter.
[57:31] Back in the late 1920s in Shanghai,
[57:34] there was no air conditioning, so
[57:36] everyone wore fur coats in that
[57:38] freezing weather. He intentionally
[57:43] heated the room like a steam bath and
[57:45] stood at the door wearing nothing but
[57:48] shorts, dressed for summer. He served
[57:51] yellow wine laced with ginger and other
[57:54] heating ingredients, urging everyone to
[57:56] drink up. The stove was so hot that as
[57:59] soon as they walked in, everyone hung
[58:01] their fur coats by the door. He didn't
[58:04] come out until the very end. When he
[58:06] finally emerged, he said, "Everyone, I
[58:09] am truly sorry." When everyone was
[58:12] drinking well and sweating profusely,
[58:14] he said, "I have no money today, so
[58:17] I've pawned all your fur coats." He
[58:20] pawned them, saying he had no choice
[58:23] because he was broke. So he just
[58:25] grabbed a handful of pawn tickets.
[58:28] >> He threw them up into the air and just
[58:31] walked away.
[58:33] >> After he left, all those people were
[58:35] stuck in their undershirts and shorts,
[58:37] trying to hail rickshaws, looking
[58:39] utterly pathetic while people cursed
[58:41] them.
[58:42] >> What was the point of that? What was
[58:44] the point? Why do something like that?
[58:46] >> There were so many oddballs back then.
[58:48] >> Just a little stunt, I suppose.
[58:50] >> But a day or two later. Since he was
[58:53] friends with everyone, a servant would
[58:55] show up at each home. Carrying a big
[58:58] box. Saying, "I'm sorry, my master
[59:01] asked me to buy you a new one." When
[59:05] they put it on, it fit perfectly;
[59:07] that’s what the wealthy did back then
[59:10] , so different from the rich today.
[59:12] >> He’d mess with you first, then save
[59:15] you in the end.
[59:16] >> Right, he was a very strange man who
[59:18] often played such pranks, like
[59:20] disguising himself as a beggar or
[59:22] something else. But in the end, his
[59:25] wife divorced him, and later, when the
[59:28] Japanese invaded, he joined the Chinese
[59:30] Expeditionary Force.
[59:32] >> Oh.
[59:33] >> He died in Burma. What a strange man he
[59:36] was.
[59:37] >> That’s the style of the old-timers,
[59:39] isn't it?
[59:40] >> It’s like the author of "The
[59:42] Bureaucracy Exposed," Li Boyuan, who
[59:44] wrote a similar anecdote.
[59:46] >> He wrote about the Sima Road in
[59:48] Shanghai back in the late Qing Dynasty;
[59:50] Shanghai already had a Sima Road then.
[59:53] It tells of a general, known as the "
[59:55] Zhao Yun of the Qing Dynasty," the
[59:57] white-clad warrior general. Whenever he
[60:00] came into money, he would go to
[60:01] Shanghai. Once in Shanghai, he would
[60:04] dress up as a beggar and kneel on Sima
[60:06] Road. Like people handing out flyers in
[60:08] the subway now, he’d watch for girls,
[60:10] because there were many women on Sima
[60:12] Road, the most fashionable ones. He
[60:14] would take a slip of paper and hand one
[60:16] out. Every time a girl walked by, he'd
[60:19] hand her a slip. After he finished, he
[60:22] left. The notes were written concisely:
[60:27] anyone who took the slip home and
[60:30] opened it would find a piece of gold
[60:32] leaf inside.
[60:36] >> The implication for the readers is that
[60:39] surely many pretty girls threw them
[60:41] away on the street or didn't even take
[60:44] them.
[60:44] >> I imagine only the kind-hearted girls
[60:47] would see him kneeling there handing
[60:49] them out and decide to take one home.
[60:53] >> But why on earth would he do that?
[60:57] Later, I read in notes from the Qing
[60:59] Dynasty in Beijing that the Eight
[61:01] Banners children had this fashion back
[61:04] then.
[61:05] >> It's not like the rich second
[61:06] generation today who buy a Ferrari or
[61:08] something; they...
[61:09] >> They preferred to hide their wealth.
[61:11] >> They would dress as beggars. It was
[61:14] somewhere in the western suburbs of
[61:16] Beijing; someone curious watched three
[61:19] or four beggars from afar, perhaps
[61:21] someone like the late Mr. Ma, staring
[61:23] to see if there were any flaws.
[61:26] Eventually, he noticed that one of the
[61:28] beggars had a jade ring on his thumb
[61:30] that he couldn't take off. He couldn't
[61:33] take it off; it seemed to be the kind
[61:35] used for archery in the past. So, he
[61:37] kept watching from nearby. By dusk, he
[61:40] saw two luxurious horse-drawn carriages
[61:43] arrive. There were even eunuchs coming
[61:45] out of the carriages to help them
[61:47] change. And wash their faces. Then they
[61:50] changed into fine silk clothes and
[61:53] drove off in a cloud of dust.
[61:56] >> But what exactly were these people
[61:58] doing? Why this peculiar trend? I've
[62:01] seen it in Shanghai too; as I said,
[62:04] there were people dressing up as
[62:06] beggars well into the 1920s.
[62:08] >> It's quite a hobby.
[62:10] >> There's a theory that while it's hard
[62:11] for the poor to pretend to be rich,
[62:13] it's even harder for the rich to
[62:15] pretend to be poor; there's a certain
[62:16] level of difficulty. If you're wealthy
[62:18] and have had a high-level education,
[62:20] you don't even look the part when
[62:21] you're kneeling there.
[62:22] >> You definitely don't look the part;
[62:24] trying to make yourself look authentic,
[62:26] that beggar-like air, is very difficult
[62:28] . This is actually what fascinates me
[62:30] more. It's truly eccentric. Some say
[62:33] everyone is equal at the dinner table,
[62:36] but when it's time to pay the bill,
[62:38] everyone’s nerves kick in, you know?
[62:40] >> So, wait a minute, I heard about a
[62:42] restaurant owner who specifically
[62:44] trained his staff—the ones handling
[62:46] the bills—saying, "Let me tell you,
[62:49] when you go to the private rooms to
[62:51] collect the bill, if someone says '
[62:53] check, please,' you stare right at that
[62:55] person.""You must identify exactly who
[62:57] said they'd pay first, because many
[62:59] people just pretend to offer; they
[63:00] fight over the bill back and forth."
[63:02] >> Usually, those who shout the loudest
[63:03] aren't the ones who end up paying.
[63:05] >> The boss said, "Don't worry about the
[63:06] others; you must lock your eyes on the
[63:08] first person who says they'll pay."
[63:10] >> Oh, I’ve really heard that. You
[63:12] really have to be careful; don't
[63:14] pretend to grab the bill. Some
[63:16] restaurant cashiers can be quite
[63:18] mischievous. When two people are
[63:20] fighting to hand over their credit
[63:22] cards, they might just take the one
[63:24] from the person who was merely putting
[63:27] on a show, just to catch them off guard
[63:29] . I once had an interesting idea to
[63:32] write a book, because when we were
[63:33] young, we read books like "Twenty Years
[63:36] of Witnessing Strange Events."
[63:37] >> I originally wanted to write a book
[63:39] called "The Chronicles of Dining."
[63:41] >> About all the strange meals I've had
[63:42] over the years. Right, you've been to
[63:44] many meals,
[63:44] >> what other strange things have you
[63:46] eaten?
[63:46] >> The strange meals here in Beijing, you
[63:48] wouldn't even believe it.
[63:50] >> A friend from Hong Kong came to me and
[63:51] said, "I need a favor." I asked, "What
[63:53] is it?"
[63:54] >> Hmm.
[63:55] >> He said, "I owe a debt of gratitude,
[63:56] and I have to eat at someone's place.
[63:58] Come with me, and we'll settle the debt
[64:00] ."
[64:00] >> I asked, "Why do I need to go?" He said
[64:03] , "Well, I don't know many people in
[64:05] Beijing, so if we can just scrape
[64:07] together a table, we can go eat and
[64:08] I'll clear the debt." This place wasn't
[64:10] even open to the public, you know? I
[64:13] invited a few other people, but it was
[64:15] a huge hassle; finally, we got six of
[64:18] us together to go eat there. It was
[64:21] very inconspicuous. Once we got inside,
[64:24] I was stunned. How did they expect us
[64:27] to eat? The six of us were dining in
[64:29] the main hall. Each person was given a
[64:31] table and a chair. The six of us were
[64:34] all separated, far from each other. My
[64:36] legs were dangling off this huge chair,
[64:38] just like in a kindergarten.
[64:40] >> Then the tables...
[64:41] >> With six people, I asked, "Are we
[64:42] eating here?" You said, "Dining."
[64:44] >> Hmm. I said, "We can't eat like this.
[64:47] What kind of debt repayment is this? I
[64:49] can't stand it."
[64:50] >> Later I said, "This is impossible,
[64:52] because we have to shout across the
[64:53] tables."
[64:54] >> I said, "Let's change." So, we moved to
[64:57] another spot. We switched to a big
[64:59] table, but the chairs were also
[65:00] oversized, my feet couldn't reach the
[65:02] floor. After we finished, the boss came
[65:04] over, saw me, and said, "Oh, Mr. Ma is
[65:06] here! It's on the house." That meal was
[65:08] incredibly expensive, you know? He even
[65:10] did this...
[65:11] >> He called it a treat.
[65:12] >> It turned out to be Mr. Ma.
[65:14] >> As a result, I didn't pay the debt, and
[65:16] they even waived the bill.
[65:17] >> So there's a famous assertion here in
[65:19] Beijing: the mystery of Chinese culture
[65:21] lies in the "fanju"(dining gatherings).
[65:23] >> The dining gathering is the ultimate
[65:25] endgame.
[65:26] >> Our social lives are all dining
[65:27] gatherings; we eat whether there's an
[65:29] occasion or not. Actually, most private
[65:31] homes didn't host guests back then; I
[65:33] remember this was the late 90s. Once
[65:35] you’ve renovated your house and have
[65:37] a fancy living room, you stop hosting
[65:39] guests at home, and everything is done
[65:40] by eating out.
[65:41] >> Right.
[65:43] >> So, I was talking to a friend of mine
[65:45] who runs a restaurant, and I said the
[65:47] most fascinating things actually happen
[65:50] during dinner parties. The most
[65:53] interesting content is like us four
[65:55] chatting here; if you look at what
[65:57] people are really talking about at
[65:59] these dinners, you can uncover the
[66:01] city's most charming secrets. That's
[66:04] true.
[66:05] >> All sorts of different topics are saved
[66:07] up specifically to be discussed at the
[66:09] dinner table.
[66:09] >> Mm.
[66:11] >> And I've noticed that at every meal,
[66:13] everyone is mentally drafting their own
[66:15] stories. Like us right now, while Ma Ye
[66:17] is speaking, I'm already thinking about
[66:19] what I’m going to say next.
[66:21] >> Oh.
[66:22] >> This might be a Chinese habit, this
[66:24] need for everyone to sit around a round
[66:26] table. I'm not talking about how young
[66:28] people might just sit at shared tables
[66:30] now; that lacks this specific aura.
[66:32] Having a round table is like having a
[66:35] story-telling session.
[66:36] >> Exactly, and there’s always a
[66:38] distribution of roles.
[66:40] >> I often told a friend of mine who loves
[66:42] hosting house parties—I went a few
[66:43] times and asked, "Why is it that every
[66:45] time I walk into your party, there's
[66:47] always an Aquarius man there?" What
[66:49] does that mean? It means there's always
[66:51] one person holding court while everyone
[66:53] else listens.
[66:53] >> Aquarius people are like that.
[66:55] >> Sorry, you're not one.
[66:57] >> I'm not, I'm not, I challenged Ma
[66:59] Ye’s point. I’m just joking, but
[67:01] there's always one person who talks a
[67:04] lot, constantly sharing their own
[67:06] stories while others listen, then a few
[67:08] people chiming in, and someone acting
[67:11] like a secretary or organizer to manage
[67:13] all the details. I've found that this
[67:15] division of roles happens automatically
[67:18] at the dinner table. The other day, I
[67:20] saw a foreign dating site—they don't
[67:22] call it matchmaking, they call it
[67:24] dating—saying that young people today
[67:27] are really different from our
[67:29] generation. It gets to the point where,
[67:32] on a dating app, they agree to meet up.
[67:34] After they meet, the guy looks around
[67:37] and suggests, "How about we share a
[67:39] hamburger?" And so they get a burger.
[67:45] When it arrives, the guy cuts it in two
[67:47] , looks at both pieces, takes the
[67:50] larger one for himself, and in the end,
[67:52] they split the bill. The punchline of
[67:56] this joke is...You see, Western-style "
[67:58] go Dutch" has its own logic.
[68:00] >> Right.
[68:01] >> It's based on individual portions.
[68:04] >> Everyone has their own, so it's easy to
[68:06] split. Chinese people actually can't
[68:08] really split things that way. Since
[68:10] you've lived abroad, do you think
[68:12] foreigners really "go Dutch" or even
[68:14] split the bill down to the cent?
[68:16] >> Not at all. I think it depends on the
[68:19] person. But sometimes, you'll find that
[68:21] if you insist on paying the bill, they
[68:23] get really surprised. For instance, a
[68:26] while ago in the UK, I was with a few
[68:28] friends—we were former classmates, so
[68:30] we were pretty close. We went to a
[68:32] museum, then had some coffee, which
[68:34] really didn't cost much. When it was
[68:36] time to pay, one of them asked me, "Can
[68:39] you expense this?" I said, "No." Then I
[68:41] thought, it’s not much money anyway;
[68:44] a cup of coffee is just a few pounds,
[68:46] so I just paid for it. I didn't want to
[68:48] deal with splitting it on my credit
[68:50] card. The other girl was really
[68:52] surprised. She was very grateful, of
[68:54] course, but the level of gratitude made
[68:56] it feel like I’d treated her to a
[68:58] fancy feast. She kept thanking me, and
[69:00] I thought, "It's not that deep, it's
[69:02] just a few pounds." But sometimes, we
[69:04] Chinese people talk a lot about "mianzi
[69:06] "—face. Well, they’ve even added
[69:08] the term "save face" to English now,
[69:10] but that’s a very Chinese expression.
[69:13] They say if a foreigner has lived in
[69:15] China, they’ll understand what you
[69:17] mean by "saving face." But I don’t
[69:19] think they generally see it that way.
[69:21] To them, "face" just means respect. As
[69:24] long as you show them enough respect,
[69:26] that’s enough. It’s not like our
[69:28] concept of face, which is divided into
[69:30] so many nuances—like what counts as "
[69:32] face" and what doesn't. And there's "
[69:34] guang"—having face isn't enough, you
[69:36] need "guang" too.
[69:37] >> How do you interpret "guang"?
[69:39] >> It means others can see it; making it
[69:41] visible to others.
[69:42] >> Ah, there's another aspect of "face"—
[69:45] whether things are kept equal. For
[69:47] example, if you give me a 300-yuan gift
[69:49] or treat me to a 300-yuan meal, I feel
[69:52] like I need to pay back a little more.
[69:54] That’s what the Japanese mean when
[69:56] they say "don't cause others trouble,"
[69:57] right? That’s why Japanese people
[69:59] usually give very small gifts, which I
[70:01] think is very correct.
[70:02] >> They also have that kind of "table full
[70:04] of food" culture.
[70:05] >> It's all about making you feel that the
[70:08] gift is very valuable or that the meal
[70:10] you provided was excellent. It's not
[70:12] just about who pays the bill; it's more
[70:14] like everyone there is just completely
[70:17] stunned by the whole experience.
[70:19] >> Yeah, exactly, kind of taken aback.
[70:22] >> There’s also another point to this.
[70:24] >> Back in the day, some people just loved
[70:26] hosting dinner parties; it was their
[70:28] way of socializing. Right.
[70:30] >> There was this one extremely famous
[70:32] place in Beijing.
[70:33] >> Whose place?
[70:35] >> They operated right out of their home,
[70:37] inside an old dormitory building.
[70:38] >> They bought two large units and knocked
[70:40] the wall down to connect them. Their
[70:42] kitchen likely extended into other
[70:44] rooms too—it was a full-scale
[70:46] commercial kitchen with three or four
[70:48] chefs working away. They ran a "rolling
[70:51] " service, like an assembly line. It
[70:53] was constant rotation, with tables
[70:54] pushed together, big tables nested with
[70:56] small ones—it was just an irregular
[70:58] mess of tables. Since I was actually
[71:00] pretty close with the owner, but had
[71:02] never eaten there, he invited me
[71:04] repeatedly, so I finally went. I
[71:06] figured if you’re inviting me to
[71:08] dinner, it’d be a small group where
[71:10] we could actually talk. But at his
[71:12] place, strangers just kept walking in;
[71:13] you’d be mid-meal and new people
[71:15] would show up.
[71:16] >> I think I know who you’re talking
[71:18] about.
[71:18] >> Yeah, it’s very famous, and they kept
[71:20] having to add more chairs. And how far
[71:23] did they take the chair-adding? To the
[71:25] point where, even if you didn't know
[71:26] the person next to you, you had to
[71:28] share a bench because there were just
[71:29] too many people. After we finished and
[71:31] left, they asked what I thought. I said
[71:33] the only thing I could say was that
[71:35] I’d never eaten a meal like that,
[71:36] sitting completely sideways the whole
[71:38] time because it was so crowded. They
[71:40] squeezed twenty sets of chopsticks onto
[71:42] a table meant for ten. I told them, "
[71:43] I’ve been eating like this from start
[71:45] to finish. If I don't turn sideways, I
[71:46] don't have enough room."
[71:47] >> Left-handed or right-handed, you just
[71:50] had to sit sideways. From the moment I
[71:52] arrived until I left, they just kept
[71:55] bringing out dishes. You’d finish a
[71:57] dish, you’d leave, and then the next
[71:59] group would come in to eat that same
[72:01] revolving menu.
[72:02] >> It was a very famous "assembly line" in
[72:04] Beijing. Heard they moved later on.
[72:07] >> What kind of thrill do you think these
[72:09] people get from that?
[72:10] >> I really don't know. Back then, because
[72:12] it was a dormitory building...When you
[72:14] walked into the hallway by their door,
[72:16] there were stacks of those 24-bottle
[72:17] beer crates piled higher than in any
[72:19] actual restaurant. They just loved it.
[72:21] They were pouring money into it.
[72:23] >> Right.
[72:24] >> No one pays, everything there is free,
[72:26] it’s just lively. And at this table,
[72:28] from the moment you arrive, people are
[72:30] already eating. No matter what time you
[72:32] walk in, they’re eating, and when you
[72:33] leave, there are still new people
[72:35] arriving. That’s how it is. It’s
[72:37] like the retainers people used to have
[72:38] in the past, right? The retainers were
[72:40] on my tab, yes, I just have that
[72:41] feeling of being the host.
[72:42] >> This is typical of a revolving-door
[72:43] banquet, yes.
[72:44] >> Yes.
[72:45] >> He feels this gives him face.
[72:47] >> It gives him face, does it?
[72:48] >> You think Shanghainese people would be
[72:49] willing to take such a loss?
[72:50] >> There are some, there are. Just like
[72:53] what Master Ma said, this kind of
[72:55] situation exists. I know a friend whose
[72:57] home is exactly like this. Their home
[73:00] has hot meals ready 24 hours a day, and
[73:02] people can come in to eat at any time.
[73:05] Ah, is it not the same as what the
[73:07] master said? Is it not also possibly
[73:10] due to work reasons? For example, some
[73:12] people might arrive at 11 o'clock at
[73:14] night or something like that. Well, I
[73:16] recently heard Zhan Zhi, that person
[73:19] from Taiwan, tell a story that was
[73:21] quite similar to this.
[73:23] >> Oh, it was really touching when he
[73:24] talked about his wife, since she passed
[73:26] away, you know. Yes, yes, yes.
[73:29] >> He shared an anecdote about his wife,
[73:31] saying that at the time, Zhan Zhi was
[73:33] the only one who ran a company. People
[73:35] like Lo Ta-yu and Edward Yang were all
[73:38] involved in making movies back then.
[73:41] Since they didn't have companies, they
[73:44] would ask Zhan Zhi to step in.
[73:46] >> Yes.
[73:47] >> This group of people would even knock
[73:49] on their door at three or four in the
[73:51] morning.
[73:51] >> Ah.
[73:52] >> As soon as they knocked on the door.
[73:54] His wife would open the door and her
[73:56] first sentence would be, "Have you
[73:57] eaten yet?" His wife would immediately
[74:00] make food. I said a wife like that is
[74:01] truly impossible to find even with a
[74:03] lantern. It's two or three in the
[74:05] morning and he hasn't even gotten out
[74:06] of bed, but his wife is already up. His
[74:08] wife was a very famous gourmet in
[74:10] Taiwan, you know.
[74:11] >> Oh, so that’s why everyone was
[74:12] willing to go and eat there.
[74:14] >> She passed away suddenly a few years
[74:16] ago. Afterward, he hosted a dinner in
[74:18] Shanghai featuring her recipes. Also in
[74:21] Hangzhou.
[74:22] >> Yes, he invited me that time in
[74:23] Hangzhou, but because I was recording
[74:25] our show, I couldn't enjoy it. It's
[74:26] just that his home became a place where
[74:28] people could drop by to eat at any time
[74:30] , and his wife would get up to cook for
[74:31] them. That’s how it was.
[74:33] >> Well, for her to do everything herself
[74:34] is really rare. I thought they had a
[74:36] chef at home.
[74:37] >> Actually, in the Middle East, there are
[74:38] many situations where the "face"
[74:39] associated with dining is even more
[74:40] intimidating. For instance, if they are
[74:42] going to host you for dinner, you have
[74:43] to arrive in the morning. That’s too
[74:45] much.
[74:46] >> Spending a whole day at someone's place
[74:47] , it's not just about the meal itself
[74:49] —beyond the food being a gesture of
[74:51] respect, it's the time you spend that
[74:53] really shows you care. You have to head
[74:55] over in the morning; even if there’s
[74:57] nothing to talk about, you have to go
[74:58] and just watch TV with them. Then,
[75:00] after you’ve finished eating, you
[75:01] have to say goodbye at least three
[75:03] times. You have to insist on leaving
[75:04] until they finally say, "No, no, you
[75:06] can't go yet, stay a bit longer,"
[75:07] because that’s the way to show you're
[75:08] valued.
[75:09] >> I just feel that this kind of...
[75:10] >> Chinese people, you see, ask "Have you
[75:12] eaten?" the moment they meet. Eating is
[75:15] always on our lips. Think back to the
[75:18] 70s during the rationing era; many
[75:20] families had to save for months just to
[75:22] gather enough food for a New Year's
[75:24] meal.
[75:24] >> Exactly.
[75:26] >> Right? It’s arguably the most
[75:28] important aspect of our culture; this
[75:30] is truly our Chinese culture.
[75:32] >> Moreover, the hosts who organize these
[75:35] gatherings, I think they are a very
[75:37] unique breed. I have friends like this,
[75:40] and I truly admire them, because like
[75:42] you said, it’s like a flowing stream.
[75:46] >> Later, I imagined it; in reality, their
[75:49] house is never empty.
[75:50] >> Right.
[75:51] >> This immense social ability—if you
[75:54] were a homebody like me, my god, I’d
[75:56] have a mental breakdown. But they just
[75:58] keep going, and you might find that
[76:00] this family...well, they are the
[76:02] renowned figures of Hangzhou. Whether
[76:04] they are celebrities from Shanghai or a
[76:06] specific circle in Beijing, whoever
[76:08] brings friends over knows to take them
[76:10] to their house.
[76:11] >> And they just sit there, chatting away.
[76:14] Of course, you can interpret it from a
[76:16] practical standpoint—the network they
[76:19] build is incredible, right? But from
[76:21] another perspective, I think this is
[76:24] just who they are. It’s that they get
[76:26] a kick out of it.
[76:27] >> It gives them immense psychological
[76:28] satisfaction. Right, but to us, it’s
[76:31] torture. I mean, from the morning on,
[76:32] you have to be dressed, at least
[76:34] dressed properly, right?
[76:35] >> People just keep coming, wave after
[76:37] wave, group after group.
[76:38] >> Especially when they become very famous
[76:40] , the stream of people never ends;
[76:42] it’s all strangers.
[76:43] >> Exactly, all strangers, yeah.
[76:45] >> Sometimes at the beginning, they’d
[76:47] introduce this person or that person,
[76:49] but later on, nobody knows anyone, so
[76:50] they don’t even bother with
[76:52] introductions anymore. Once everyone
[76:54] finishes and leaves, they’re all very
[76:56] happy. It reminds me of what you
[76:58] mentioned; I’ve found that some
[77:00] people—for instance, there’s an
[77:01] American artist named Andy Warhol,
[77:03] whose work sells for hundreds of
[77:05] millions now. In the end, he just had
[77:08] this big loft. In the end, you just
[77:12] felt that every drifter in New York,
[77:14] street homeless, people with mental
[77:16] illnesses, all sorts of people were
[77:19] going there to eat and drink. It was
[77:22] obviously related to the art he was
[77:23] working on, so it was acceptable.
[77:25] >> No, he even filmed them.
[77:28] >> He just filmed them, which is why some
[77:30] later said he was exploiting these more
[77:32] vulnerable people. He didn't care;
[77:34] you’d always see all sorts of chaotic
[77:37] , eccentric characters there. Everyone
[77:39] knew his place was like a big workshop,
[77:42] so they all came. He kept filming until
[77:45] an incident happened; he was filming a
[77:47] woman on the street, and in the end,
[77:49] she fired a shot.
[77:51] >> Hmm.
[77:52] >> She was just seriously injured, that
[77:54] kind of thing happened.
[77:55] >> There was an American writer named Jack
[77:58] London. After he became successful,
[78:00] didn't he build a huge estate in the US
[78:03] , called Wolf House or something? He
[78:05] brought together everyone who could
[78:08] write, whether he knew them or not. It
[78:10] was his most glorious era.
[78:12] >> He liked giant projects.
[78:15] >> Then it eventually caught fire and
[78:17] burned down. The whole estate was
[78:19] destroyed. The only place where this
[78:21] culture is preserved now is at rural
[78:24] funerals; they have revolving feasts.
[78:26] >> Rural funerals still view a large
[78:28] turnout as a point of honor. If
[78:30] someone’s elder passes away, they
[78:32] hold a three-day feast. The further
[78:34] away people travel from, the more
[78:35] honored they are. It’s not about your
[78:37] status; if you traveled 50 miles to eat
[78:39] this meal, you are a guest of honor.
[78:41] >> Don't weddings have that? Weddings?
[78:43] >> Weddings don't. Chinese people
[78:44] definitely value the dead more than the
[78:46] living; for the living...
[78:47] >> Weddings have food too, but they don't
[78:49] have revolving feasts. Only funerals
[78:51] have those. Weddings are just one meal
[78:53] and it's over. For deaths, it’s
[78:55] normal in the countryside to eat for
[78:56] three days. Wealthy families have
[78:58] people eating from morning till night
[78:59] for three days. Then there's the
[79:01] funeral culture—the musicians playing
[79:03] and singing. Now there are opera
[79:05] performers and everything else. It’s
[79:06] loud enough to blow your voice out. You
[79:09] ...
[79:09] >> Call it a gathering, but it’s
[79:11] actually a...
[79:12] >> If you are very famous or wealthy,
[79:14] people from miles around all come over
[79:16] to have a meal. So the question is, who
[79:18] always ends up picking up the tab? For
[79:21] example, it makes me wonder, regarding
[79:23] these weddings in Shanghai you
[79:25] mentioned...
[79:27] >> Are they actually making money or
[79:29] losing money?
[79:30] >> That really depends, but I generally
[79:33] hear that people don't hold them for
[79:35] second marriages. For second marriages,
[79:37] they just keep it low-key, without any
[79:40] invitations.
[79:40] >> They say that nowadays in Shanghai,
[79:42] those red envelopes have to be at least
[79:43] a thousand. Yeah, that's the starting
[79:45] point.
[79:45] >> I guess so.
[79:46] >> For me, it's more than a thousand.
[79:48] >> A thousand barely covers the cost of
[79:49] the meal.
[79:50] >> People say the red envelopes in
[79:51] Guangdong are really small, just...
[79:53] >> Very small. Why are the ones in
[79:55] Shanghai so big? It might be a
[79:58] historical thing. Like, if I gave you
[80:00] one three years ago.
[80:01] >> Right, and now you have to add a little
[80:03] bit more, exactly, you have to add more
[80:05] .
[80:05] >> That's how it keeps increasing. It's
[80:07] because everyone keeps track; some
[80:09] older folks even keep ledgers at home
[80:10] for these favors. Oh, the pressure of
[80:13] these social debts! What do Shanghai
[80:15] mothers-in-law say? After the wedding
[80:17] banquet is all over, they look at the
[80:18] exhausted bride and groom and tell them
[80:20] , "Make sure you count all the red
[80:21] envelopes before you go to sleep
[80:23] tonight."
[80:23] >> They have to turn everything over to
[80:25] them.
[80:26] >> Some do it because they have debts to
[80:28] pay off.
[80:29] >> Right, because previously, for example,
[80:31] if they owed others or others owed them
[80:33] these favors, it all has to be
[80:35] reconciled. It's so tedious, so much
[80:38] trouble.
[80:38] >> It is a hassle, it really is, because
[80:41] this is linked to people who lived
[80:43] through the experiences of the 60s and
[80:45] 70s.
[80:46] >> That's how these things happen. I
[80:48] believe this will disappear in the
[80:49] future because the parents of this
[80:51] generation all lived through the 60s
[80:52] and 70s, which were......
[80:54] >> times of very, very tight living.
[80:56] >> I feel like that kind of social
[80:57] obligation is just a burden, that
[80:59] desire to save face. I just think,
[81:00] what's the point of living your whole
[81:02] life just keeping accounts for others?
[81:04] >> Exactly, exactly. Yes, and that's why I
[81:07] find many of the customs that still
[81:09] exist in Shanghai today so hard to
[81:11] understand. Supposedly, Shanghai people
[81:13] are the most practical, right? But,
[81:16] this is what's really interesting. For
[81:18] example, if you buy a ring, the auntie
[81:20] next door might come over and say, "Is
[81:22] this only 81 points?""It's still a bit
[81:25] small. When our daughter gets married,
[81:27] it's better to have at least a carat."
[81:30] Then they say, "There's a standard for
[81:32] these things, you have to follow it."
[81:34] Sometimes I wonder, for people like us
[81:35] who are a bit wild, what if I just
[81:37] don't have a wedding? Is that okay? Why
[81:40] wouldn't you? What kind of impact would
[81:42] not having one have on their
[81:43] surrounding society?
[81:44] >> Whether you hold one or not depends on
[81:46] your relationship with your mother,
[81:48] right?
[81:48] >> In some families, children don't listen
[81:50] to their parents, so they can
[81:51] absolutely choose not to hold one, but
[81:53] in many, many cases, the children are
[81:55] controlled by their parents. You can't
[81:57] really say the head of the family is
[81:59] bad; they attend so many weddings for
[82:01] relatives and give out so many red
[82:03] envelopes.
[82:04] >> Right? And also
[82:06] >> Yeah, no more chances.
[82:08] >> Shanghainese people are usually very
[82:10] calculating, but they aren't clear on
[82:12] this part.
[82:13] >> Do you know what I mean? It's just that
[82:15] they all live the same kind of life.
[82:17] You know, my impression of the Shanghai
[82:20] Bund—of course, they say locals don't
[82:22] visit the Bund—but every time I go, I
[82:25] always see a bunch of white dresses,
[82:27] brides in white wedding gowns running
[82:29] onto the grass.
[82:30] >> Taking photos, that is.
[82:32] >> Why does everyone have to be so
[82:34] identical?
[82:35] >> How should I put this? These people
[82:38] aren't necessarily true Shanghainese;
[82:40] they could very well be "new
[82:42] Shanghainese." It’s like they want to
[82:44] show their hometown folks, "I got
[82:47] married on the Bund," because there's
[82:49] nowhere else in the city to take photos
[82:51] . Just like in Russia, places like
[82:55] Moscow's Red Square, it’s become a
[82:57] habit now. My generation didn't have
[83:00] any of this—no wedding gowns, no
[83:02] photos, nothing.
[83:03] >> There are a few spots now, like the
[83:05] Badaguan in Qingdao.
[83:06] >> Or Gulangyu in Xiamen. When I used to
[83:10] go to Gulangyu all the time, I’d see
[83:12] those wedding photos. Oh my, one photo
[83:15] shocked me. The woman—I saw her from
[83:18] the front and she was beautiful, but
[83:20] when she turned around, her back was
[83:23] covered in these angry red welts, like
[83:25] a leopard print. It was so intense.
[83:28] Because she was wearing a backless
[83:30] dress?
[83:30] >> Yeah, she was anxious too. You see,
[83:32] they think the wedding dress is so
[83:34] beautiful, they don't care how much
[83:35] they suffer. Right, exactly.
[83:37] >> Actually, Shanghainese people are very
[83:39] practical on one hand—well, not just
[83:40] Shanghainese—but on the other, they
[83:41] are very concerned about "face."
[83:42] >> They are being extremely practical and
[83:44] calculating while doing something very
[83:46] impractical.
[83:47] >> Why is that? It’s really about what
[83:50] you’d call a "social code" in English
[83:52] ; it's a set of social rules, where if
[83:54] you don't follow them, people will talk
[83:57] about you. You feel like you’re
[83:59] living within a web of social codes. I
[84:01] remember when I was young, maybe in the
[84:03] 80s or 90s, when it first became a
[84:05] trend for people to have a "travel
[84:06] wedding" instead of holding a banquet,
[84:08] they would just go on a trip. I would
[84:10] hear the adults whispering behind their
[84:11] backs, "Oh, they didn't even hold a
[84:13] banquet.""If you don't do it, people
[84:14] will criticize you." Actually,
[84:16] Shanghainese are very concerned about
[84:18] what people say behind their backs,
[84:20] which is exhausting. What Wentao said
[84:22] earlier seems to generally reflect the
[84:25] situation in Shanghai, but on an
[84:27] individual level, everyone is different
[84:30] .
[84:30] >> Some people aren't so particular; I was
[84:33] just thinking that some people would
[84:35] just handle it quietly.
[84:37] >> Or perhaps we assume Shanghainese are
[84:39] like that, but there are all sorts of
[84:42] possibilities. So, speaking of dinner
[84:45] parties, let me share an anecdote I
[84:48] read in a book. I feel we have this set
[84:52] perception of someone as a "bad person,
[84:55] " or someone with a very clear label.
[84:58] There was a woman who later married Wu
[85:01] Shibao, named She Aizhen. In the old
[85:04] Shanghai dialect, they called her a "ba
[85:06] ningshuo," which is basically a female
[85:09] gangster. It’s said her marksmanship
[85:13] was incredible, she could hit a target
[85:15] from a hundred paces, and she later
[85:17] married...
[85:18] >> Someone from No. 76, who was it? He
[85:22] started out as a driver and was later
[85:24] assassinated by the Japanese. He was
[85:27] considered a traitor, and at that time,
[85:29] was it...
[85:30] >> Right, Wu Shibao. During the "Isolated
[85:34] Island" period, the relationship
[85:36] between No. 76 and the KMT was
[85:38] extremely tense, especially involving
[85:41] the banks. If I killed one of yours
[85:43] today, you would definitely kill one of
[85:46] ours tomorrow. Both sides carried out
[85:49] assassinations at dinner parties. They
[85:52] would be dining, and there's this story
[85:54] that they were about to carry out an
[85:56] operation. They were in a private room,
[86:00] and She Aizhen said she wasn't at ease.
[86:04] She said, "Before you carry out the
[86:06] action later, I want to go in and take
[86:08] a look." Her subordinates took her in
[86:10] to have a look. In the private room—
[86:13] I’m imagining the scene—the curtain
[86:15] was pulled back, and she saw a group of
[86:17] people sitting inside. The person
[86:20] facing the door had someone whisper in
[86:22] his ear that the man in the middle was
[86:24] the deputy bank manager and they would
[86:27] kill him later during the operation.
[86:30] Then She Aizhen said something very
[86:33] unique; she said this guy was too
[86:36] handsome. "Killing him seems like a
[86:39] waste, let's swap for that old guy with
[86:42] a mustache on the side.""We'll kill
[86:45] this one instead."
[86:46] >> So, my impression of She Aizhen is
[86:49] generally that she was ruthless, but on
[86:52] this one point......
[86:54] >> it was still all about looks.
[86:56] >> It turned out that five minutes after
[86:58] he turned and left, the gunman came in,
[87:01] aimed at the door, and shot a man with
[87:03] pockmarks—he died so unjustly.
[87:05] >> Just because I have pockmarks? What?
[87:08] >> Because the guy next to him was
[87:09] handsome. Yes, that's the scenario I'm
[87:11] talking about.
[87:12] >> When things like this happen. It all
[87:13] depends on your appearance. Don't
[87:15] Shanghainese love to talk about "
[87:16] maixiang"?
[87:17] >> Can a good appearance save your life?
[87:19] Shanghainese love using this term "
[87:21] maixiang"—how should one understand
[87:23] it?
[87:23] >> For example, I see you seem
[87:24] particularly familiar with Shanghainese
[87:26] people; have you dated a Shanghainese
[87:27] girlfriend in the past?
[87:28] >> I wanted to, I really did, but they
[87:30] didn't fancy me—they just felt it
[87:32] wasn't possible. Your "maixiang" is
[87:34] actually very good.
[87:35] >> My "maixiang"?
[87:36] >> Very good. Very good, you have a good
[87:39] appearance.
[87:39] >> It's too late even if it's good now. I
[87:41] wouldn't say that.
[87:43] >> Look, you have a good friend named Mao;
[87:45] I saw Mao write an article about Jin,
[87:48] saying he's a typical "lao kela."
[87:50] >> I personally don't quite like that term
[87:53] . These so-called "lao kela" and such
[87:55] —that covers a very broad range. It
[87:57] just means older Shanghainese people.
[88:00] >> It's "classic," derived from that word,
[88:02] meaning very classic, like they have a
[88:04] classic old-school style. What about
[88:06] the term "xiaokai" in Shanghainese?
[88:09] What does that mean? "
[88:10] >> Xiaokai" is just...well, it's a wealthy
[88:13] kid. It means his father is definitely
[88:16] a boss, very rich, but the most
[88:17] important thing about a "xiaokai" is
[88:20] that he doesn't know how to do anything
[88:22] and doesn't get involved.
[88:23] >> No.
[88:24] >> He’s a hands-off manager, that’s it
[88:26] .
[88:26] >> And what about "baixiang"? "
[88:28] >> Baixiang" means to hang out, just to
[88:30] play.
[88:30] >> You have to dress up with a good
[88:31] appearance before you go out to play.
[88:33] You know what I want to say? The
[88:34] beginning of his novel, "Blossoms
[88:36] Shanghai," mentions Wong Kar-wai's "
[88:38] Days of Being Wild.""
[88:40] >> Days of Being Wild."
[88:42] >> It’s when you watch Tony Leung...
[88:45] >> At the end, combing his hair, counting
[88:47] two banknotes, dressing meticulously,
[88:50] and heading out. He said that
[88:52] half-minute was the essence of Shanghai
[88:54] .
[88:54] >> There are quite a few people like this
[88:56] in Shanghai, coming out to play cards
[88:57] in the middle of the night. Sleeping
[88:59] during the day; there is a segment of
[89:01] the population that actually lives like
[89:03] this, even living a life from the
[89:04] Republican era. They...
[89:06] >> But where does their income come from?
[89:08] >> They just rely on this, on this... "
[89:10] >> Dakai"(gambling/playing).
[89:11] >> They might have some money at home, or
[89:13] their lives are really living on the
[89:15] edge. But it’s a very distinct
[89:17] Shanghai flavor. You see, there were
[89:20] places in Shanghai—of course, they've
[89:23] all been torn down now—like Tilanqiao
[89:26] , Caohejing, or Shiliupu. Those areas
[89:29] were a mix of everything, naturally
[89:32] forming into these urban sub-centers.
[89:35] In these sub-centers, you had people
[89:37] with all sorts of experiences,
[89:39] especially before 1949. People from all
[89:42] kinds of backgrounds, they still
[89:44] maintained that certain way of life.
[89:46] Some old men would still be drinking
[89:48] coffee, doing their own thing; even
[89:50] putting out a biscuit had to be just so
[89:52] —it was all an accumulation of the
[89:55] past. Within that ecosystem, all kinds
[89:57] of people relied on all sorts of ways
[89:59] to make a living.
[90:00] >> Since I bought quite a few antiques in
[90:02] Shanghai, I encountered all sorts of
[90:03] different characters while shopping for
[90:05] them.
[90:06] >> They are different from Beijingers;
[90:07] Shanghainese are very good at what you
[90:09] call "testing the waters." If something
[90:11] doesn't work, I'll step back. How can I
[90:13] make this deal happen? For example, one
[90:15] year I saw a Huanghuali bed that I
[90:17] liked so much, I couldn't get enough of
[90:19] it.
[90:19] >> In my heart, I felt that at the time,
[90:21] it was worth 800,000, which was already
[90:23] a lot.
[90:24] >> So I wanted to buy it and pursued the
[90:26] owner. This owner wasn't in the antique
[90:28] business; he was in the bathhouse
[90:30] business, but......
[90:31] >> after he made money, he would always
[90:33] buy these kinds of things. He had all
[90:34] sorts of "brothers" helping him acquire
[90:36] them. And so, even though I thought it
[90:38] was worth 800,000, if you are really
[90:39] sincere about buying something, you
[90:41] have to offer more, right? I was
[90:42] hell-bent on buying it, but he wouldn't
[90:44] sell. He said he’d never sell it in
[90:46] his lifetime. So, in order to get him
[90:48] to sell it, I gritted my teeth and
[90:50] offered an amount I thought wasn't
[90:52] worth it—it was way too expensive—I
[90:54] said I could pay 1.2 million for it. He
[90:56] didn't even think about it and kicked
[90:58] me out, saying, "Not a chance, that's
[91:00] impossible." He said, "I have people
[91:02] coming here to take baths," and so on.
[91:04] The matter of that bed stayed on my
[91:05] mind, so I kept asking. Two years later
[91:08] ,
[91:08] >> someone close to him called me and said
[91:10] he wanted to sell the bed.
[91:11] >> When he told me, I called him and asked
[91:13] , "Why?" He said, "Oh, his wife is
[91:14] having a baby, and he’s out of money
[91:16] now."
[91:16] >> Hmm.
[91:17] >> His wife is having a baby. So, I was
[91:19] very proactive and gave him a call. I
[91:22] said, "Hey, I heard you want to sell
[91:23] that bed?"
[91:24] >> He said, "Sell? How much are you paying
[91:27] ?" I asked, "How much? Didn't I offer
[91:29] you 1.2 million before?" You see, these
[91:31] antiques, they don't have a fixed price
[91:34] .
[91:34] >> That price is completely arbitrary;
[91:36] it’s not like the standard market
[91:37] price per kilogram.
[91:39] >> I said this. I said I’d offer 120,
[91:42] right? He said yes. I said if I offer
[91:45] you 600,000, are you going to keep
[91:47] haggling? I’m chasing you with all
[91:48] this money and you still won’t sell
[91:50] to me? I’m being so sincere, taking
[91:52] you out to eat, and you just take me to
[91:53] the bathhouse and still refuse to sell.
[91:55] So, I tell him, I’ll give you 600,000
[91:57] . If you don't haggle, it’s 600,000
[91:59] minus 10,000—that's 590,000. If you
[92:01] agree, the money will be in your
[92:03] account in one minute.
[92:04] >> Mm.
[92:05] >> He didn’t stutter or hesitate at all;
[92:07] he didn't bargain with me, just said
[92:09] okay.
[92:10] >> His straightforwardness completely
[92:12] caught me off guard, because I assumed
[92:14] he would haggle and drag things out
[92:16] with me.
[92:17] >> Dragging it out—at the time, I still
[92:20] thought I could pay the 800,000, but
[92:22] his "okay" left me stunned. Then I
[92:25] quickly paid the money, but after
[92:27] paying, I felt uneasy. Why? He was too
[92:30] quick about it, and I couldn't be slow.
[92:32] After I paid, I sent someone the next
[92:33] day, because I was in Beijing at the
[92:35] time. I told him, "You can't do
[92:37] anything else today, just go and move
[92:39] my bed away." Because I was afraid he
[92:40] might sell it cheaper, or sell it again
[92:42] —if he sells it twice, then the bed
[92:44] is gone, right? Because I’m someone
[92:45] who gets really anxious about money.
[92:47] >> Whatever happens after is hard to say.
[92:49] So look, I have a friend from Taiwan
[92:52] who has lived in Shanghai for a long
[92:54] time. He said, "Look at my driver,
[92:57] it’s interesting," he said, "if you
[92:59] give him a little tip..."
[93:01] >> Shanghainese people are very aware of
[93:03] the benefits in this. They place great
[93:05] importance on this kind of benefit. Hmm
[93:07] .
[93:07] >> I think Shanghainese people are indeed
[93:09] very concerned about "face." It’s
[93:11] like when you go out, when you leave
[93:13] your house, apart from wearing pajamas,
[93:15] I think everyone has a very high degree
[93:17] of consensus on this matter of "face."
[93:19] And this, I remember when I was a kid,
[93:21] even back then when nobody had much
[93:24] money, we had this neighbor who knew
[93:26] how to sew clothes. She’d find
[93:28] designs for foreign-style outfits in
[93:31] various magazines, and even with cheap
[93:33] fabric, she’d stitch them all
[93:35] together. Dressing up and looking sharp
[93:38] was really important. Take for example
[93:41] the articles I read by Klin, he wrote
[93:43] about how in Shanghai, when you went to
[93:45] a bathhouse, the attendant who took
[93:47] your coat would always take a look at
[93:50] the label while hanging it up.
[93:51] >> In that single short moment of checking
[93:54] the brand, he could tell who you were.
[93:56] >> Then he knew exactly how to serve you.
[93:58] >> Oh, speaking of that era, I suddenly
[94:00] thought of something unrelated. Do you
[94:02] know, I just found out that Professor
[94:04] Jin's father was an underground party
[94:06] member? An underground operative back
[94:08] in the day, so at least in one aspect,
[94:10] I see your father’s shadow in you. He
[94:12] still spends his whole day collecting
[94:15] information and observing all sorts of
[94:17] different people. So, Professor Jin,
[94:19] thank you for sharing so many
[94:21] fascinating stories with us today.
