## Detailed walkthrough
### [00:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=It5-n2KfcKQ&t=3s) Forever Twelve: Early Childhood Memories and Universal Love
When addressed as an elderly lady, art historian Xu Xiaohu immediately pushes back. She genuinely perceives herself as forever twelve years old. Probing into this enduring youthfulness, Zhou Yijun brings up an extraordinary, luminous memory from Xu Xiaohu’s infancy—a moment from when she was barely over one year old. Her father brought home a large box filled with food. Because she was so small at the time, the box appeared monumental to her eyes, presenting itself as a giant vessel overflowing with love. Her father playfully told her that everything inside was meant just for her. Looking upon an endless world stocked with delicious treasures, she felt an overwhelming wave of shock and joy that permanently anchored her worldview: "That is to say, I have always been love."
This innate openness shapes her approach to art history. Although ancient Chinese art history is often treated as a distant, scholarly, or private discipline, Xu Xiaohu experiences it as an intimate encounter with the living breath of the ancients. She explains that early artists captured the pulse and breath of the great universe itself as they perceived it. She equates this cosmic resonance with what ancient Chinese thought refers to as *Li* (理, universal principle and cosmic order), or what Western traditions identify as God—a vast, transcendent presence woven directly into existence.
[01:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=It5-n2KfcKQ&t=112s) Learning to See: Thirty Minutes Before a Canvas in Milan
The dialogue turns to the fundamental question of human perception and the lost art of truly looking. Zhou Yijun recalls traveling to Hangzhou as a child with her mother in the early days of film photography. In their clumsy eagerness to capture memories, her mother accidentally loaded the film roll backwards without realizing it. Today, by contrast, tourists snap endless photos on smartphones in seconds, yet walk away having seen virtually nothing. Zhou Yijun contrasts this modern visual numbness with an experience she had earlier in the year at a museum gallery in Milan. During a thirty-minute piano recital held directly in front of a monumental painting—depicting Venice's St. Mark's Square blended with an imaginative assembly of Christian and Muslim figures—she was forced to stow her phone and sit in the front row with nowhere else to look.
At first, it was simply a large static painting, but as twenty and thirty minutes passed without interruption, the canvas began to transform. Details sparkled and breathed: figures seemed alive, subtle facial expressions emerged, and tiny background details—like a person walking a dog on a leash—became vividly clear. She felt as though she had physically stepped across the frame into the world of the painting. Afterward, a fellow attendee confirmed having the exact same sensation, and the museum director explained that he deliberately trains his staff using this precise exercise: sitting before a single painting for thirty to sixty minutes without moving or checking devices. Modern people suffer from eyes that function like blind wood—looking incessantly without ever truly seeing. When asked if she experiences this modern visual blindness, Xu Xiaohu immediately answers that she does not:
- Xu Xiaohu perceives art not merely with intellectual scrutiny, but through physical sensation and soul: "Because I look, I look, I keep looking and I feel with my skin. I feel with my soul."
- Her way of seeing relies on radical slowness: she reads books at an exceptionally slow pace, takes hours to read personal letters, and eats her meals deliberately and slowly, refusing the rushed cadence of modern life.
[05:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=It5-n2KfcKQ&t=304s) An "Old Child": Zhang Yue Joins and the Vigor of Xu Xiaohu
Veteran television host Zhang Yue arrives to join Xu Xiaohu and Zhou Yijun after their morning boat journey. Zhang Yue shares that long before meeting Xu Xiaohu in person, her social feeds were filled with friends praising Xu as a legendary figure and an ideal role model for educating children. Xu Xiaohu smiles at the description, remarking that she is indeed an ideal companion for children because she is simply an "old child" herself: "Because I have intentionally not grown up." She insists that trying to educate adults is pointless, since adults have already become trapped in rigid adult behavior.
Zhang Yue reflects in astonishment on Xu Xiaohu’s sheer vitality. Despite being in her nineties, Xu Xiaohu had delivered a public lecture the preceding evening, spent the entire morning navigating waterways by boat for filming, and immediately transitioned into an intensive afternoon dialogue. Concerned about her physical exertion, Zhang Yue had repeatedly instructed production staff to ensure the elderly scholar would not have to walk across the grounds on foot. Moments later, the crew sent back a photo showing Xu Xiaohu briskly striding along the path with her hands casually clasped behind her back. Xu Xiaohu laughs, noting that her physical frame struggles to keep pace with her boundless spirit: she loves feeling the rush of wind against her face so much that she instinctively runs forward, pauses when her heart demands she catch her breath, and then starts running again.
[06:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=It5-n2KfcKQ&t=408s) Mental Friction vs. Childlike Directness: Overcoming the Stupidity of Adults
Contrasting her own mindset with Xu Xiaohu's effortless presence, Zhang Yue reveals how internal friction drains modern people of vitality. While sitting on the boat enjoying the scenery, Zhang Yue's mind was racing with anxious concerns: wondering whether Zhou Yijun had finished the interview outline, worrying that her own lack of formal art training would ruin the conversation, and stressing over whether flight delays the next day would disrupt an afternoon meeting in Beijing. She realized she was exhausted before the shoot had even begun simply because of excessive mental fretting. Xu Xiaohu, on the other hand, carries zero mental luggage. She falls asleep effortlessly anywhere—including leaning her chin directly on the customs counter while immigration officers process her passport:
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: Childlike Presence vs Adult Mental Friction
accDescr: A diagram contrasting childlike presence and adult mental friction as described by Xu Xiaohu and Zhang Yue.
subgraph Adult["The Adult Trap: Internal Friction"]
A1["Overthinking & Anxiety"] --> A2["Meaningless Small Talk"]
A2 --> A3["Obsession with Others' Opinions"]
A3 --> A4["Exhaustion Before Starting"]
end
subgraph Child["Xu Xiaohu's State: Childlike Directness"]
C1["Zero Mental Luggage"] --> C2["Direct Truth & Play"]
C2 --> C3["Complete Inner Freedom"]
C3 --> C4["Unbounded Energy & Vitality"]
end
```
Zhang Yue observes that Xu Xiaohu’s boundless stamina stems entirely from this total absence of internal friction. She does not harbor hesitation, self-doubt, or anxiety; if she feels joyful she expresses it, and if she refuses to do something she plainly declines. Xu Xiaohu bluntly summarizes why grown-ups struggle: "Because adults are stupid." She recalls realizing in childhood that adult chatter was hollow, full of polite small talk designed to avoid trouble that only ends up inviting more complications and social paranoia. Children, by contrast, meet to play rather than engage in artificial pleasantries, unconcerned with how others judge them: "I am who I am. If you don't like me, we can have a fight and see what happens."
When asked whether this uncompromising directness caused her severe hardship in professional circles, Xu Xiaohu remains entirely unbothered. Academic institutions routinely punished her: canceling her lectures, withholding speaking invitations, and refusing to publish her research. Yet she dismisses the fallout without bitterness: "That's their problem, not mine. I did what I felt I should do." This fearless stance defined her landmark doctoral dissertation on Yuan dynasty painter Wu Zhen, later published as *The Forgotten True Trace* (*Overcoming the Oblivion of the Masterpieces: A Re-examination of Wu Zhen's Painting and Calligraphy*). Begun in her thirties and completed at age fifty, the groundbreaking thesis boldly challenged established connoisseurship and was initially rejected by traditional academic authorities, yet finishing it completely freed her of any lingering inner burden.
[10:25](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=It5-n2KfcKQ&t=625s) Flipping the Table at the National Palace Museum
When Xu Xiaohu went to the National Palace Museum in Taipei to conduct research on the Yuan dynasty master Wu Zhen—one of the museum’s crowned jewels—she performed an exhaustive, stroke-by-stroke comparison of the collection. Her conclusion dropped like a bombshell: the vast majority of the paintings attributed to Wu Zhen were later imitations, with virtually no authentic originals among them. The hosts note that an assessment like that was the equivalent of "flipping over the table," an act that left the museum administration utterly furious and resulted in them revoking her access to examine their scrolls.
Xu recounts that when she initially arrived, the first director was an acquaintance who had witnessed her parents' wedding in Nanjing (she identifies him as John Ferguson, noting her mother's German background). That director had welcomed her candid eye: when he asked if she thought they had any fakes, she told him yes, and he enthusiastically replied, "That's great! Now we have something to research. Tell me which ones are fake." But when a new administration took charge, the reception chilled instantly. The subsequent director bluntly warned her, "Professor Hsu, I heard you said we have fakes in the Palace Museum... If you say we have fakes, we won't keep your book in our archives. We won't sell your books."
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: Academic Repercussions of Xu Xiaohu's Connoisseurship
accDescr: Flowchart illustrating the contrasting administrative reactions and academic ostracization following Xu Xiaohu's re-attribution of Palace Museum paintings.
subgraph S1["Initial Reception"]
A["Xu Xiaohu conducts close brushwork analysis of Wu Zhen scrolls"] --> B["Early Director welcomes inquiry:<br/>'Now we have work to do'"]
end
subgraph S2["Administrative Backlash"]
A --> C["Conclusion: Almost all attributed Wu Zhen works are fakes"]
C --> D["New Director bans books from museum shop and archives"]
D --> E["Museum revokes physical access to scrolls"]
end
subgraph S3["Academic Blacklisting"]
E --> F["NTU, NTNU, and other Taiwanese universities cancel invitations"]
F --> G["Scholarly silent treatment:<br/>Colleagues refuse debate and ignore findings"]
end
```
The blacklisting rippled across the entire Taiwanese academic landscape. Major institutions like National Taiwan University (NTU) and National Taiwan Normal University stopped inviting her to speak. Her peers did not engage in public debate; instead, they simply gave her the silent treatment and acted as though she did not exist. Despite the hostility, Xu remains undaunted. She acknowledges that finding authentic masterworks is exceedingly rare, but that rarity is what makes genuine pieces so extraordinary: the metaphysical heights reached by early Chinese masters remain unparalleled anywhere in global art history, noting with pride that there are at least five true Northern Song masterpieces confirmed to exist.
- When Xu Xiaohu told the early director she was looking for genuine works among many imitations, he saw an academic opportunity; his successor viewed it as an institutional insult.
- Rather than refuting her methodology in academic journals, the local scholarly community chose total ostracization, ignoring her research for years.
- Xu emphasizes that despite the sea of copies, the few genuine Northern Song works possess an artistic, metaphysical depth that no other civilization's art has matched.
---
[13:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=It5-n2KfcKQ&t=783s) Imperial Vanity and the Myth of Emperor Qianlong's Eye
The panel delves into why imperial collections are overflowing with misattributions. Rulers across Chinese history—most notably Emperor Taizong of the Tang dynasty pursuing Wang Xizhi’s calligraphy, and Emperor Qianlong of the Qing dynasty amassing court masterworks—eagerly collected art to display their cultural legitimacy. They wanted to prove they were deeply steeped in Han high culture. However, trying to acquire genuine work by a master who had died four centuries earlier was nearly impossible even in antiquity, leading imperial workshops and merchants to supply copies and pastiches.
The problem, the speakers explain, is that later generations conflated imperial power with connoisseurship. When Emperor Qianlong stamped an imperial seal and brushed a poetic inscription declaring a painting to be an authentic Northern Song relic, centuries of viewers treated his endorsement as irrefutable proof. Yet Qianlong lived in the 18th century; he was an emperor with absolute political authority, not infallible scholarship. People fell into a pattern of blind ancestor and emperor worship, assessing the imperial seals rather than looking at the ink and paper itself.
The hosts compare Xu’s radical re-attributions to art historical debates over works like Zhang Xuan’s *Court Ladies of the Guo State* (*Guoguo Furen Youchun Tu*). Scholars argued over whether the Lady of Guo was the feminine rider in the center or the tall, commanding figure dressed in male attire riding in front. That sort of lively speculation is welcomed because it merely enriches the narrative without destroying the painting's monetary or institutional worth. But when an art historian steps up and declares an imperial Tang treasure to be a Ming dynasty forgery, the entire market and institutional prestige collapse—which is why the establishment treats Xu's conclusions as pure "madness."
---
[15:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=It5-n2KfcKQ&t=914s) The Painting Detective: Reading Brushwork as an Artist's Voice
Xu Xiaohu explains that her approach is grounded in rigorous visual anatomy and brushwork dynamics. While examining paintings outside the confines of glass vitrines—where one can study the ink and fiber directly—she found that out of five or six pieces, only two were genuine. This analytical method applies equally to Western painting, where structural discrepancies are often even more obvious. For example, if an artist could render intricate, hyper-refined hair in 1515, it is physically impossible for the same artist in 1517 to produce clumsy hands with formless fingers and deformed toes. Art historians often make excuses, claiming a trip to Italy changed an artist's palette to muted tones, but an artist’s core technical draftsmanship does not mysteriously regress into amateurism overnight.
Xu references the renowned collector and painter C.C. Wang (Wang Jiqian), who observed that brushwork is an artist’s indelible voice. A person’s face may age or change over decades, but the moment they speak, their identity is unmistakable; an artist's brush stroke functions the exact same way. Chen Danqing once remarked that Xu’s method is notoriously grueling and demanding: it requires analyzing every single ink splash, evaluating each stroke’s energy and structure, and measuring execution against historical stylistic evolution. Yet to Xu, it is neither boring nor a burden:
> "Because I’ve liked being a detective since I was a child. Now I’ve finally become a detective of paintings."
She describes waking up in the middle of the night, struck by a visual hunch, and opening her computer to inspect high-resolution details until dawn. She has no institutional quotas to fulfill, no bureaucratic reports to submit, and no urge to prove herself to anyone; her sole motivation is the pure joy of solving the mystery.
- Brushwork acts like a vocal signature: color schemes and subject matter may vary, but mechanical execution cannot be faked without leaving traces.
- Western attributions frequently rationalize technical blunders as "stylistic evolution," ignoring clear anatomical regression.
- Chen Danqing highlighted the sheer physical and mental labor of Xu's methodology, whereas Xu views it as the fulfillment of a lifelong dream to be a sleuth.
---
[17:43](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=It5-n2KfcKQ&t=1063s) A Taste of Old Beijing: Aiwo-wo and Childlike Fearlessness
The conversation takes a delightful, nostalgic turn when the production team reveals a surprise for Xu Xiaohu: a box of authentic *aiwo-wo* (艾窝窝) shipped directly from Beijing, honoring the flavors of her childhood. Xu instantly recognizes the treat with genuine delight. The hosts discuss the culinary changes over the decades: traditional Beijing *aiwo-wo* was always made with a white sugar and sesame filling, whereas modern commercial versions frequently substitute red bean paste. One Southern host laughs at her own cultural ignorance, confessing that until yesterday she had spent her life confusing *aiwo-wo* with plain corn buns (*wotou*), having wondered why Xu described eating one as being like "biting into a cloud."
Xu conspiratorially leans in to request the sesame-filled one, whispering playfully:
> "Don't say 'white sugar' too loudly... Because Sabrina can hear. She doesn't want me eating sugar."
```mermaid
flowchart LR
accTitle: Traditional vs. Counterfeit Aiwo-wo Composition
accDescr: Diagram comparing the authentic Beijing method of making aiwo-wo with modern, mass-produced versions.
subgraph Authentic["Authentic Traditional Beijing Aiwo-wo"]
A1["Steamed Glutinous Rice Grains<br/>(Light, cloud-like texture)"]
A2["Filling: White sugar, sesame, candied orange peel, shredded melon"]
A1 --- A2
end
subgraph Imitation["Modern / Shortcut Version"]
B1["Processed Glutinous Rice Flour<br/>(Rubbery, elastic bean-bun dough)"]
B2["Filling: Standard red bean paste"]
B1 --- B2
end
```
Tasting the confection, Xu notes that authentic *aiwo-wo* must retain the texture of whole, steamed glutinous rice grains pressed together, with a filling featuring sesame, sugar, candied peel, and candied melon shreds. The modern versions made with ground glutinous rice flour turn the pastry into an elastic, rubbery bun—an imitation she playfully dismisses as just another fake.
As they snack, the dialogue shifts to the creative spirit of children. One host recalls visiting an open art studio with her daughter, watching in awe as children attack a pristine white canvas without the slightest hesitation or anxiety about whether the end result will look "good." In contrast, adults are paralyzed by self-consciousness. An adult makes a timid mark, immediately judges it as a mistake, frantically smears and rubs the paint off, and ends up painting the entire canvas black and scrawling ironic gold letters over it—masking their fear of failure behind a joke. That uncorrupted, fearless intuition seen in young children mirrors the pure curiosity that drives Xu Xiaohu's lifelong pursuit of art.
[30:49](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=It5-n2KfcKQ&t=1849s) The Transformative Power of Music and the Move from Rome to Wartime Chongqing
The conversation opens with a reflection on how deeply art can reshape a person's inner life. Listening to great music—such as Beethoven or Bach—can move someone to tears and alter their consciousness completely. The speakers observe that this type of transformation often occurs quietly; you grow and expand your worldview without even realizing it at the time.
The discussion then turns to Xu Xiaohu's early childhood. Because her father, Xu Daolin, served as a diplomat in the Republic of China's embassy in Rome, she spent her earliest years in Italy surrounded by nannies, household staff, and strict supervision. However, the outbreak of World War II abruptly shattered that sheltered world when Italy aligned with the Axis powers alongside Germany and Japan, placing it in direct opposition to China. The diplomatic mission was forced to withdraw, and the family returned to China, eventually settling in the wartime capital of Chongqing.
Moving from diplomatic quarters in Europe to wartime Chongqing was a jarring shift. The city endured years of relentless, heavy bombing by Japanese aircraft while serving as China's provisional wartime hub. Yet, when asked how this displacement and chaos affected her childhood psyche, Xu Xiaohu remembers not terror, but a sudden, exhilarating escape from adult control. In Chongqing, her family lived high up in the mountains, trading European drawing rooms for raw nature and unstructured freedom.
- **Historical Context:** Italy's entry into World War II alongside Germany and Japan forced Chinese diplomatic personnel, including Xu Xiaohu's father, to evacuate Rome and return to China.
- **The Wartime Capital:** Chongqing served as the provisional capital of the Republic of China during the Second Sino-Japanese War, enduring near-constant aerial bombardment.
- **Contrasting Childhoods:** The transition from highly supervised domestic life in Rome with servants to semi-wild mountain living in Chongqing permanently shaped Xu Xiaohu's independent spirit.
---
[32:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=It5-n2KfcKQ&t=1972s) Solitude on the Mountain: Sneaking Out of Air-Raid Shelters and the Jialing River
At school in Chongqing, Xu Xiaohu stood out from her peers due to her reddish, wavy hair, prompting the local children to tease her by calling her *"Yang Pozi"* (foreign granny) or *"Yellow Yang Pozi."* She vehemently pushed back, shouting: "I am Chinese; I am Chinese!" When the air-raid sirens wailed and the population crowded into underground bomb shelters, she regularly slipped away unnoticed and escaped back up into the hills. Unafraid of the explosions, she would watch from the open ridge and count the Japanese bombers flying overhead. Chongqing’s famous thick river fog routinely cloaked the terrain, leaving the bombers searching blindly and sparing many targets below.
The hosts point out that despite growing up amid war and displacement, her memories are remarkably free of trauma. Xu Xiaohu’s happiest moments were spent entirely alone. Below the mountain summit where her home stood, a single winding path led downward past a slope. Beneath a pine tree sat a large, flat rock where she loved to perch for hours. From that vantage point, she looked down on the wide, shimmering sandbars and the glistening waters of the Jialing River rolling beneath the sunlight. Listening for the faint sound of her family's voices in the distance, she felt as though the entire universe belonged to her alone.
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: Childhood Mountain Sanctuary in Chongqing
accDescr: Diagram illustrating Xu Xiaohu's childhood escape from air-raid sirens to nature and solitary contemplation.
subgraph AirRaid["Wartime Environment"]
A["Air-Raid Sirens Sound"] --> B["Crowded Bomb Shelters"]
B --> C["Sneaking Out Unnoticed"]
end
subgraph Nature["Solitary Sanctuary"]
C --> D["Mountain Path Below Summit"]
D --> E["Flat Rock Beneath Pine Tree"]
E --> F["Watching the Jialing River"]
end
subgraph Mindset["Inner Experience"]
F --> G["Counting Japanese Planes in Fog"]
G --> H["Profound Joy in Solitude & Freedom"]
end
```
---
[34:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=It5-n2KfcKQ&t=2066s) A Wild Child's Independence: Taking Punishments and Paying the Price for Freedom
Xu Xiaohu passionately argues that parents owe their children a sanctuary—a private, off-limits territory where adults never intrude, allowing young minds to dwell completely in their own imaginative worlds. Behind her Chongqing house was an open slope where the household dumped stove ashes. Wild vines hung over the ridge, and she would grab them to swing out over the slope like Tarzan, frequently losing her grip and plunging straight into the ash pile. Left to her own devices, she staged imaginary battles where she heroically trampled Japanese imperialism into the water.
This leads to a discussion on social conditioning. Children naturally start out wild and oblivious to social etiquette, but the adult world steadily trains and molds them through expectations, scoldings, and fear of judgment. When her parents warned her that her behavior was unladylike or made her a laughingstock, Xu Xiaohu refused to internalize their shame. Whenever a spanking was handed down, she simply extended her hand forward without hesitation: "You hit, you finish hitting, and I'm still the same."
The panel reflects on how rare such authenticity is. Most people crave Teacher Xiao Hu’s effortless freedom, but they refuse to pay its inevitable cost. Because she remained uncompromisingly authentic throughout her career, institutional gatekeepers frequently penalized her: academic departments barred her research, publishers rejected her manuscripts, and traditional scholars attempted to deny her credentials. Real freedom is a conscious bargain:
> "Don't be afraid of what others think of you; that's their business. They think we're no good, they think we're stupid—that's their feeling. You are free to do that. Please do so. I'll still do what I want to do, as long as I don't hurt you."
---
[37:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=It5-n2KfcKQ&t=2240s) Rowing a 170-Person Warship in Greece at Fifty-Four
When asked about significant chapters in her adulthood for her memoir—which currently only covers up to age eleven—Xu Xiaohu jumps straight to her fifties. In 1987, at the age of fifty-three, she successfully earned her doctorate from the University of Oxford, an achievement critics insisted she could never attain. Soon after, she was elected female captain of an Oxford graduate rowing crew.
Her rowing passion culminated in an extraordinary adventure in Greece: volunteering to crew a full-scale reconstruction of an ancient Athenian trireme warship. Propelling the massive vessel required 171 rowers pulling synchronized, 26-foot-long oars arranged across three tiered decks (top, middle, and bottom). Xu Xiaohu remembers the immense, bone-rattling weight of the oar, which made her shake as she pulled.
When she originally tried out, the recruiter from Oxford attempted to reject her, claiming she was too short. Xu Xiaohu shot back without missing a beat: "No, you're too tall!" To prove her point, she cited the ancient Greek hoplite armor preserved in the museum, which fit her compact frame perfectly while the modern, six-foot-tall rowers could barely squeeze into it. Because the ancient warship was built for the proportions of classical Greek sailors, the towering modern athletes were cramped and miserable, while Xu Xiaohu fit comfortably into the rowing bench.
- **The Oxford Doctorate (1987):** Completed her D.Phil in art history at Oxford around age 53, defying academic gatekeepers.
- **The Trireme Project:** Participated in the sea trials of a reconstructed ancient Greek trireme (featuring 171 rowers arranged across three tiered decks).
- **The 26-Foot Oar:** Pulled massive, historically accurate sweeps that required tremendous physical endurance.
- **The Hoplite Sizing Argument:** Pointed out that archaeological armor proved classical Greek citizens were small, making her build ideal for the cramped ancient warship.
---
[39:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=It5-n2KfcKQ&t=2366s) Unconventional Motherhood: The Sausage Pen and Making Whiskey-Barrel Cider While Pregnant
The hosts marvel at the stark contrast between Xu Xiaohu's life at fifty-four and that of typical middle-aged women. While most peers were agonizing over retirement ranks, spousal promotions, and getting their children into prestigious universities, Xu Xiaohu was pulling warship oars across the Mediterranean, lecturing, and raising children on her own eccentric terms.
Her approach to child-rearing was as practical as it was artistic. When her toddler threw tantrums, she did not fuss or coddle. Instead, she constructed a tall, upright, sausage-shaped cylindrical pen. When the child began crying uncontrollably, she placed him inside the structure where he could stand safely and vent his frustration while she observed calmly from nearby. The hosts laugh heartily, calling it an artist mother's real-life version of "inviting the gentleman into the urn," comparing it to the traditional trick of flipping a four-legged wooden stool upside down to keep a restless toddler contained during dinner.
Xu Xiaohu recalls pregnancy not as an illness to be pampered, but as an energetic, joyful adventure. Craving hard cider, she routinely climbed apple trees while heavily pregnant to gather fruit. She hauled sacks of fallen apples to a press for juicing, then transferred the cider into a fragrant oak whisky barrel to ferment. To achieve the rich, complex fermentation of traditional home brewing, the recipe called for more than just fruit: into the barrel went fallen twigs, tiny garden insects, and even minced meat and pork fat. When the hosts react with audible horror and ask if such a concoction was actually drinkable, Xu Xiaohu beams with delight, insisting it yielded an extraordinarily delicious brew.
## Notable quotes
> [00:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=It5-n2KfcKQ&t=3s) That is to say, I have always been love. — 徐小虎
> [01:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=It5-n2KfcKQ&t=112s) Because I look, I look, I keep looking and I feel with my skin. I feel with my soul. — 徐小虎
> [05:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=It5-n2KfcKQ&t=304s) Because I have intentionally not grown up. — 徐小虎
> [06:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=It5-n2KfcKQ&t=408s) Because adults are stupid. — 徐小虎
> [06:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=It5-n2KfcKQ&t=408s) That's their problem, not mine. I did what I felt I should do. — 徐小虎
> [15:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=It5-n2KfcKQ&t=914s) Because I’ve liked being a detective since I was a child. Now I’ve finally become a detective of paintings. — 徐小虎
> [17:43](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=It5-n2KfcKQ&t=1063s) Don't say 'white sugar' too loudly... Because Sabrina can hear. She doesn't want me eating sugar. — 徐小虎
> [34:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=It5-n2KfcKQ&t=2066s) Don't be afraid of what others think of you; that's their business. They think we're no good, they think we're stupid—that's their feeling. You are free to do that. Please do so. I'll still do what I want to do, as long as I don't hurt you. — 徐小虎
[0:03] 徐小虎: That is to say, I have always been love.
[1:52] 徐小虎: Because I look, I look, I keep looking and I feel with my skin. I feel with my soul.
[5:04] 徐小虎: Because I have intentionally not grown up.
[6:48] 徐小虎: Because adults are stupid.
[6:48] 徐小虎: That's their problem, not mine. I did what I felt I should do.
[15:14] 徐小虎: Because I’ve liked being a detective since I was a child. Now I’ve finally become a detective of paintings.
[17:43] 徐小虎: Don't say 'white sugar' too loudly... Because Sabrina can hear. She doesn't want me eating sugar.
[20:07] 徐小虎: 你们根本不懂音乐，我才不给你们弹。
[23:06] 徐小虎: 如果你去饭馆吃一道菜觉得难吃，那就是不好吃，你的舌头会立刻告诉你答案。
[34:26] 徐小虎: Don't be afraid of what others think of you; that's their business. They think we're no good, they think we're stupid—that's their feeling. You are free to do that. Please do so. I'll still do what I want to do, as long as I don't hurt you.
[46:12] 徐小虎: 你若教不会我，岂不是更笨？
[53:22] 徐小虎: 该吃我的毒药了。
[56:04] 徐小虎: 简直没有比这更蠢的了，笨蛋文人，真是太愚蠢了。
Original transcript
[0:03] You must be unhappy when you hear
[0:05] people call you an old lady. Yes, I am.
[0:09] >> I’ve seen you say that you believe
[0:10] you are forever twelve years old.
[0:13] >> I am indeed.
[0:17] >> So I don't quite understand. I saw you
[0:21] once recall—and I found it amazing—
[0:23] that you still remember being a little
[0:25] over one year old, when your father
[0:27] brought you a box of food.
[0:31] >> Yes.
[0:33] >> And the immense shock and joy you felt.
[0:36] >> Yes.
[0:36] >> When was that?
[0:38] >> That's because I was very short and
[0:40] small, so the box seemed so big to me.
[0:44] A huge box filled with love for me. My
[0:48] father told me—he was joking, of
[0:50] course I didn't know—he said this was
[0:52] all for you. When I saw that this world
[0:57] , this endless world, was full of
[0:59] delicious things, I was, of course,
[1:01] happy beyond words. That is to say, I
[1:08] have always been love. Even though it
[1:15] is ancient art history, you call it
[1:17] private art, yet you see the breath of
[1:19] the ancients inside it.
[1:22] >> The breath of the great universe that
[1:24] the ancients painted is what they
[1:25] perceived. And I feel that perhaps that
[1:29] is simply
[1:30] >> what the Chinese call "Li"(ritual/order
[1:32] ).
[1:33] >> Ah.
[1:37] >> What foreigners call God, that person
[1:39] with a white head, that bird.
[1:44] >> Ah, you know what kind of bird that is?
[1:47] >> It’s because I feel the hair on the
[1:49] back of its head is white.
[1:52] >> Actually, a topic I really want to talk
[1:54] to you about is the act of looking.
[1:57] >> Look at us here today, feeling how
[1:59] tranquil it is, with birds chirping.
[2:03] Sometimes I think back to when I
[2:04] traveled as a child, the first time I
[2:06] came to Hangzhou with my mother.
[2:09] >> Back then, there were no mobile phones,
[2:10] and people only had film cameras, which
[2:12] had just become available, so we didn't
[2:14] really know how to use them. My mother
[2:16] took photos of me. When she took the
[2:17] photos, she even put the film in
[2:19] backwards, and she didn't even know it.
[2:21] Back then, everyone traveled and tried
[2:23] to capture things in such a clumsy way.
[2:25] But now, everywhere we go, we just snap
[2:27] photos like this, right? Yet, sometimes
[2:29] I feel that I’m not really seeing
[2:31] anything.
[2:32] >> Mhm.
[2:34] >> This year, in an art gallery in Milan,
[2:36] there was a pianist playing in front of
[2:38] a massive painting.
[2:40] >> Uh-huh. I was sitting in the front row,
[2:42] and he played for half an hour. You
[2:44] can't look at your phone, right? You
[2:46] have to put it aside; you can't look at
[2:48] your phone.
[2:49] >> Where do your eyes go then? Your eyes
[2:50] can only look at that painting.
[2:52] >> That huge painting was of St. Mark's
[2:54] Square, it was...
[2:56] >> Oh.
[2:58] >> Yes, in that place in Italy, in Venice,
[3:00] it has a bit of imagination in it; on
[3:01] one side is the appearance of the
[3:03] Muslims at the time when they arrived
[3:05] here, and on the other is the Christian
[3:07] side—a massive painting. I kept my
[3:10] eyes fixed on that painting, looking at
[3:12] it for half an hour. Hmm.
[3:13] >> Suddenly, I saw something completely
[3:15] different; it was as if things inside
[3:17] the painting were sparkling.
[3:19] >> Then the figures seemed alive, and
[3:21] every line—there was a leash with
[3:23] someone walking a dog—if I had just
[3:24] taken a quick glance, I definitely
[3:26] wouldn't have seen it, but having
[3:28] looked for so long, I did.
[3:29] >> Including the expressions on everyone's
[3:31] faces; I felt as if I had stepped into
[3:32] the painting itself.
[3:33] >> Oh.
[3:34] >> And I thought that feeling was so
[3:36] magical. When I came out, I shared it
[3:37] with the person next to me, and he said
[3:39] , "I saw it too; I also felt like those
[3:41] people were talking to me."
[3:42] >> Later, I spoke with the museum director
[3:44] , and he said, "Exactly." He said, "You
[3:46] must not have spent such a long time
[3:48] with your eyes fixed on an object for a
[3:49] very long time."
[3:50] >> Right.
[3:51] >> He said, "I train the people at our
[3:53] museum,"
[3:53] >> Hmm, "
[3:54] >> Each time, we only pick one painting."
[3:56] >> Uh-huh. "Sit there, sit for half an
[3:59] hour or an hour; you are not allowed to
[4:01] walk around, you can't, you must look
[4:02] at it quietly like this." It just feels
[4:04] like the eyes of people today—I
[4:06] sometimes think of a poem, "My heart is
[4:08] like the wood of a blind man"—my eyes
[4:10] are like blind people's eyes, that is.
[4:13] >> We look, but we don't see; we look,
[4:16] >> but we don't see. Yes. Do you have that
[4:19] feeling?
[4:19] >> I don't have that feeling.
[4:21] >> No, you certainly don't, but you...but
[4:24] you know, why are you able to see?
[4:27] Because I look, I look, I keep looking
[4:30] and I feel with my skin. I feel with my
[4:33] soul. I'm curious as to how you are
[4:36] able to see. Open up your inner self.
[4:39] >> Well, I don't look very quickly. I read
[4:42] books very, very slowly, too. So when
[4:45] someone writes me a letter, it takes me
[4:47] a long time to finish reading it. I eat
[4:50] very slowly, too. Too slow, perhaps, so
[4:56] I can change it a bit.
[5:04] >> Professor Xiao Hu, we were on the boat
[5:06] this morning
[5:07] >> for the whole morning, and now, let me
[5:10] introduce a new friend to you, hmm,
[5:12] >> Professor Zhang Yue. Hello, Professor
[5:14] Zhang. Hello, Professor Xiao Hu. Even
[5:17] before I knew you, I had already seen
[5:19] so many people in my circle of friends
[5:21] praising you.
[5:23] >> And they said you are a very legendary
[5:24] woman,
[5:26] >> saying that you are a role model for
[5:27] children, and that they want to use you
[5:29] to educate their children.
[5:31] >> That's right.
[5:32] >> That's right.
[5:33] >> That's true. Because I am just a child.
[5:38] Just an old child. Because I have
[5:42] intentionally not grown up.
[5:44] >> Mm.
[5:44] >> Intentionally trying hard not to grow
[5:46] up.
[5:46] >> Very intentionally, yes.
[5:48] >> We shouldn't try to educate adults,
[5:49] should we? Educate adults—we all live
[5:52] too much like adults.
[5:53] >> I was thinking last night that you were
[5:55] giving a lecture last night, right?
[5:57] >> Yes.
[5:58] >> I thought, tomorrow morning they have
[6:00] to travel by boat and film, and
[6:01] tomorrow afternoon we have to talk. How
[6:04] can a 90-year-old handle this work pace
[6:06] ? But it's no problem, right?
[6:09] >> No, not for me.
[6:12] >> Just now, all the way here, I kept
[6:13] telling our staff to make sure Mr. Wu
[6:15] didn't have to walk over.
[6:17] >> I asked if he could take a boat, and
[6:19] later they sent me a photo. You had
[6:21] already walked over with your hands
[6:23] behind your back. Truly, when I see you
[6:25] , I feel like your age has nothing to
[6:27] do with it.
[6:28] >> Mm.
[6:29] >> I think so too. My body isn't actually
[6:32] as fast as my soul.
[6:34] >> Mm.
[6:35] >> For instance, I love the wind. So I
[6:38] walk fast to feel the wind, but my
[6:40] heart can't take it, I have to catch my
[6:42] breath.
[6:44] >> So my body has to stop, and then I run
[6:47] again.
[6:48] >> When I was coming over just now, I was
[6:49] imagining you on the way.
[6:51] >> Mm.
[6:51] >> I thought, Mr. Wu must be really
[6:53] enjoying the ride while coming in by
[6:55] boat.
[6:55] >> Very, very much enjoying it.
[6:57] >> Right, and then I compared that to what
[6:59] I was thinking while I was on the boat.
[7:01] >> Mm.
[7:02] >> The scenery is really nice. Oh, this
[7:04] interview location is well-chosen. I
[7:07] wonder if Zhou Jun has finished the
[7:09] interview outline. What angles will he
[7:11] talk about?
[7:13] >> Mm.
[7:13] >> Oh, I'm not an art major, I don't know
[7:15] much about painting, it'll be terrible
[7:16] if the talk doesn't go well. I have a
[7:18] meeting in Beijing tomorrow afternoon,
[7:20] I hope the flight isn't delayed.
[7:21] >> I think even more than you do. I almost
[7:23] couldn't sleep last night. See.
[7:26] >> So later I realized why I am already
[7:28] exhausted before I even start—because
[7:30] I have worried about so many things
[7:31] along the way.
[7:33] >> Oh my, you poor thing. Do you usually
[7:36] worry about things? Or do you never
[7:38] worry at all?
[7:39] >> I don't have to worry.
[7:40] >> Mm, Mr. Wu can sleep anywhere. I truly
[7:43] admire that. He said he can even sleep
[7:45] at an immigration office, leaning his
[7:47] chin on the counter.
[7:49] >> That’s just how it is. They check and
[7:52] check, and I just wait and wait and
[7:53] wait, and then I fall asleep. Then they
[7:56] say it's done and I can leave.
[7:58] >> So, why does he have energy? Because he
[8:01] doesn't have internal friction. His
[8:02] heart is just very direct and simple.
[8:04] It is what it is. If he's happy, he
[8:07] says he's happy. If he doesn't want to
[8:09] do something, he says he won't. Why are
[8:11] we always so tired? I think it's
[8:13] because our hearts are filled with
[8:14] hesitation, anxiety, self-doubt,
[8:16] impatience, and worry, that’s why you
[8:18] feel especially tired, right?
[8:20] >> Ah.
[8:20] >> Mm.
[8:21] >> Adults like being like this.
[8:22] >> Mm.
[8:23] >> Mm.
[8:24] >> Because adults are stupid.
[8:28] >> Adults are stupid; I discovered that
[8:30] when I was a child. So I decided I
[8:32] didn't want to become an adult.
[8:35] >> How, how did you discover that adults
[8:37] are stupid?
[8:38] >> The things they say don't make any
[8:40] sense. And when they talk to each other
[8:43] , I can tell there's no meaning in it.
[8:46] The mutual...
[8:47] >> All that small talk and such.
[8:50] >> Adults think small talk is actually
[8:52] good; it helps us avoid trouble.
[8:54] >> Mm.
[8:56] >> It might actually invite even more
[8:57] trouble. Yes, and adults worry about
[9:00] what others think of them.
[9:03] >> Children don't worry about that. I am
[9:05] who I am. If you don't like me, we can
[9:07] have a fight and see what happens.
[9:09] >> For a long time, my child would say to
[9:11] me, "Why do you adults talk as soon as
[9:13] you meet?" He found talking especially
[9:15] annoying. I asked, "Then what do you do
[9:16] ?" He said, "We just play when we meet.
[9:18] ""
[9:19] >> Talking," he said, "you are all so
[9:20] boring."
[9:21] >> Right, because he can hear that what
[9:23] you're saying is meaningless. It’s
[9:26] fake. Useless words spoken out.
[9:29] >> We, we study serious matters.
[9:33] >> But by acting like a child and being so
[9:35] direct, haven't you caused yourself a
[9:37] lot of trouble? Yes, not letting me
[9:41] lecture, not inviting me to speak, not
[9:44] publishing my articles, or whatever—
[9:46] but that's their problem, not mine. I
[9:49] wrote it.
[9:51] >> I did, I did what I felt I should do.
[9:54] As for how people treat it afterward,
[9:56] that’s their problem.
[9:58] >> You never have a burden in your heart,
[9:59] right? You don't think about...
[10:01] >> Once this book came out, I had no more
[10:03] burden. That "Forgotten True Self" was
[10:06] actually my doctoral thesis. Mm, I just
[10:09] wrote it for my professors. At that
[10:12] time, I was already 50. I was in my 30s
[10:15] when I started writing it, and when I
[10:17] finished, it wasn't accepted. Forgotten
[10:21] ...
[10:21] >> The "Forgotten True Self" book, your
[10:23] doctoral thesis, is actually a shocking
[10:25] thing. When we hear this story, I also
[10:27] feel particularly stunned. Most people
[10:30] don't have the courage to look at this.
[10:31] For example, when you went to the
[10:33] Taipei Palace Museum,
[10:34] >> and researched Wu Zhen, the pride of
[10:36] the Taipei Palace Museum, because they
[10:38] claim to have his authentic works.
[10:40] >> Mm.
[10:41] >> Then, after careful research and
[10:43] comparison, you said they are basically
[10:44] all fake, there aren't many real ones.
[10:47] >> This result. I think this result is
[10:49] like flipping over the table.
[10:50] >> Mm, I...
[10:51] >> I believe the Palace Museum must have
[10:53] been furious.
[10:54] >> They just wouldn't let me examine their
[10:56] paintings anymore.
[10:57] >> So, they didn't let you conduct
[10:59] research there, right?
[11:00] >> Well, when I went there, the first
[11:02] director happened to be German. He was
[11:05] the witness at my parents 'wedding in
[11:06] Nanjing. My mother was German, and his
[11:09] name was John Ferguson.
[11:11] >> Mm-hmm. He asked, "Little Hu, do you
[11:14] think we have any fake paintings here?"
[11:16] I said yes. He said, "That's great! Now
[11:20] we have something to research. Tell me
[11:22] which ones are fake." I told him, "
[11:24] Actually, I'm looking for the genuine
[11:26] ones; there are very few." He said, "
[11:28] Then we have work to do." I said, "Yes,
[11:31] we do." Later, the next director saw me
[11:35] and said, "Professor Hsu, I heard you
[11:37] said we have fakes in the Palace Museum
[11:39] ." I said, "Yes, but every collection
[11:44] has fakes."
[11:45] >> Mm-hmm.
[11:47] >> He said, "If you say we have fakes, we
[11:49] won't keep your book in our archives.""
[11:52] >> We won't sell your books."
[11:54] >> In other words, you're not welcome here
[11:55] . Mm-hmm.
[11:58] >> So, across all of Taiwan—NTU, Normal
[12:01] University—no school invited me to
[12:03] speak. You say we have fakes? No one is
[12:08] interested. It's strange, no one is
[12:11] interested. It's not a matter of
[12:16] colleagues being biased; I thought I
[12:18] should debate this with you.
[12:22] >> They just pretended I didn't exist. One
[12:25] year passed, then another year passed.
[12:27] Genuine works are indeed rare. I've
[12:30] thought about this issue. It’s truly
[12:31] terrible, but what's not terrible is
[12:34] that genuine works do exist. That's the
[12:36] first thing. Second, their level is so
[12:38] incredibly high. The artistic level
[12:42] they achieved is metaphysical—
[12:44] something other countries' art hasn't
[12:46] reached. So, I feel quite proud that we
[12:51] at least have five pieces of this kind
[12:53] from the Northern Song.
[12:56] >> Only five?
[12:59] >> Only five, that's right, Song.
[13:03] >> Professor Hu means that when emperors
[13:04] throughout history collected these
[13:06] items, some were already fakes, because
[13:08] fakes were already being produced
[13:09] during that same era.
[13:10] >> Emperor Taizong of Tang wanted Wang
[13:12] Xizhi’s works; Emperor Qianlong
[13:14] wanted them too.
[13:16] >> He wanted palace originals and things
[13:18] like that. But to get a painter who
[13:22] died 400 years ago is extremely
[13:24] difficult.
[13:27] >> So they collected them; these two
[13:28] emperors wanted to show they were very
[13:30] "Han," that they understood Han culture
[13:32] , so many things they collected were
[13:34] works attributed to famous people. They
[13:37] just stamped their seals on them.
[13:39] Actually, in the past, for us, this
[13:41] served as proof: Qianlong had seen it,
[13:43] Qianlong had stamped the imperial seal,
[13:45] saying it was a painting from the
[13:47] Northern Song, so it must be authentic.
[13:49] Because Emperor Qianlong had commented
[13:51] on it. But he was a man of the 18th
[13:53] century; how could he possibly know?
[13:56] >> Because we tend to validate and worship
[13:58] the ancients, as well as high-ranking
[14:00] figures like emperors, there is a lot
[14:02] of blind worship involved that actually
[14:04] has little to do with the object itself
[14:06] . Yes, they may have had great power,
[14:09] but their knowledge wasn't necessarily
[14:11] as great.
[14:12] >> Isn't that kind of speculation quite
[14:14] interesting? Even in academic
[14:15] discussions, putting forward a
[14:17] different opinion is very interesting.
[14:19] >> But history already has its established
[14:21] conclusions, and you just come along
[14:22] and flip the table. Doesn't this happen
[14:25] a lot in art history as well? Before,
[14:28] they talked about that painting, the "
[14:30] Court Ladies of the Guo State," only to
[14:32] discover that the main figure wasn't
[14:34] who we always thought it was, but
[14:36] rather the one dressed in men's
[14:37] clothing—that's the Tang dynasty
[14:39] piece by Zhang Xuan, right? Everyone
[14:43] used to say that was the Lady of Guo,
[14:45] assuming it was the woman in the middle
[14:47] , but then someone suggested that the
[14:49] man in front was actually the lady—a
[14:50] liberated Tang woman who dressed as a
[14:52] man because she was tall and imposing,
[14:54] so she was the one. That doesn't really
[14:57] matter, as either way it's just
[14:59] guessing and doesn't affect the value
[15:00] of the painting, but if someone were to
[15:02] come out now and say it’s not from
[15:04] the Tang dynasty at all, that it's a
[15:05] fake from the Ming dynasty...
[15:07] >> Hmm.
[15:07] >> Then it's madness, I think it's just
[15:09] madness. That's exactly what he's doing
[15:11] .
[15:11] >> So everyone is going crazy.
[15:14] >> I am, it's a bit difficult, so I can
[15:16] see whether there are fake paintings.
[15:19] >> Hmm. I sat in that museum without walls
[15:27] or glass, where you can touch the
[15:29] paintings, so I sat there—there were
[15:31] about five or six of them in total. Two
[15:38] were genuine, the others were not. Do
[15:41] you use that same analytical method of
[15:42] brushwork to look at them?
[15:43] >> Yes.
[15:44] >> Ah, this doesn't just apply to Chinese
[15:45] landscapes; it applies to foreign
[15:47] paintings too.
[15:47] >> Is that so? You can use this method for
[15:49] foreign paintings as well? This
[15:50] approach.
[15:50] >> Well, of course, it's even simpler,
[15:53] much simpler.
[15:53] >> Oh.
[15:54] >> They are not painted correctly! If in
[15:57] 1515 you could paint hair that was so
[16:00] complex, how could you paint such
[16:02] clumsy hands and such ugly feet in 1517
[16:04] ? It’s not possible. They would say,
[16:07] "Oh, the color is like that because he
[16:09] was in Italy, he changed his colors,
[16:11] they were more muted." But your
[16:13] technique wouldn't regress, right? I
[16:16] mean, the fingers don't look like
[16:18] fingers, and the toes don't look like
[16:20] toes—they’re painted quite poorly.
[16:22] >> Yes, Wang Qixian once said that
[16:24] brushwork is a person's—or rather, an
[16:26] artist's—voice. It's their voice;
[16:28] just as no matter how much our faces
[16:30] might change, once you speak, people
[16:32] know it's you. He feels this can't be
[16:34] changed. When Chen Nanqing mentioned
[16:37] you, he said his work is actually
[16:39] extremely long and arduous. He has to
[16:43] look at every stroke and every splash
[16:45] of ink, study them repeatedly, compare
[16:47] and measure them, and then determine
[16:48] their authenticity.
[16:51] >> That’s right.
[16:52] >> It’s an extremely dull and difficult
[16:54] job.
[16:55] >> It's not just intuition; you actually
[16:57] have to train your eyes, constantly
[16:59] looking and analyzing.
[17:01] >> Right, so he says it's fun. Because
[17:04] looking at art is a very interesting
[17:05] thing.
[17:06] >> Mm.
[17:07] >> You will discover things. You will be
[17:10] moved, and it’s actually just fun.
[17:13] >> Mm.
[17:15] >> So that’s work I really, really enjoy
[17:17] doing. That’s why I’ll look at it
[17:20] in the middle of the night, or if I
[17:21] suddenly think of something at night,
[17:23] I’ll open my computer and check.
[17:25] It’s interesting because I don’t
[17:27] need to submit a report; no one is
[17:28] asking me to prove anything. It’s not
[17:32] really about proving; I just want to
[17:33] find out what is what, that’s all.
[17:37] >> Because I’ve liked being a detective
[17:38] since I was a child.
[17:39] >> Now I’ve finally become a detective
[17:41] of paintings.
[17:42] >> That’s right, exactly.
[17:43] >> Speaking of your childhood, we’ve
[17:45] prepared a little surprise for you. It
[17:47] has a bit to do with your childhood.
[17:49] >> I recognize this, as a Beijinger—oh!
[17:53] >> Do you recognize it?
[17:54] >> I do, it's Aiwo-wo!
[17:56] >> That's right.
[17:57] >> Oh, how wonderful.
[17:58] >> Shipped all the way from Beijing.
[17:59] >> Thank you, thank you all.
[18:01] >> But I don't know if it's the same as
[18:03] when you were a child, because the
[18:04] Aiwo-wo I had growing up was always
[18:06] filled with white sugar and sesame.
[18:08] >> Many Aiwo-wo today are made with red
[18:10] bean paste.
[18:11] >> Why?
[18:12] >> I don't know, maybe they think red bean
[18:13] paste tastes better, so they changed it
[18:15] . So, I don't know—I’m actually
[18:17] worse off than you. Until yesterday, I
[18:19] thought the thing I grew up with was
[18:21] Aiwo-wo, but it was actually Wotou.
[18:22] >> Ah, you southerner, you southerner!
[18:24] >> I always thought that thing was Aiwo-wo
[18:25] , so when I read that part in your book
[18:26] , I thought, "What's so good about
[18:27] Aiwo-wo? Isn't it just a Wotou?" You
[18:29] described it as being like a cloud, and
[18:30] I thought, "But isn't it yellow?"
[18:31] >> Mm. I want to eat the one with the
[18:33] sesame.
[18:33] >> White sugar filling—white sugar and
[18:35] sesame.
[18:35] >> Sesame.
[18:36] >> Mm. Right?
[18:37] >> Don't say "white sugar" too loudly.
[18:39] >> Oh, why?
[18:41] >> Because Sabrina can hear. She doesn't
[18:43] want me eating sugar. It’s the sesame
[18:45] filling.
[18:46] >> Go ahead and eat this.
[18:47] >> This one. Mm.
[18:48] >> Okay, you all should eat some too.
[18:50] >> Delicious. Mm.
[18:51] >> Alright.
[18:52] >> Alright. What's the filling?
[18:54] >> Red bean paste.
[18:55] >> Candied orange peel and shredded melon.
[18:56] It has sugar, candied orange peel, and
[18:58] shredded melon. Yes.
[18:59] >> This flavor is different.
[19:00] >> Southerners always touch my head when
[19:02] they try our Beijing ones.
[19:03] >> Alright, alright, thank you.
[19:06] >> But the dough being rice is correct.
[19:08] >> Mm. Yes, glutinous rice.
[19:10] >> In Beijing, there are fake ones.
[19:13] >> That's when they've turned the rice
[19:15] into flour,
[19:16] >> making it very soft and elastic;
[19:18] that’s not the real deal.
[19:21] >> I thought that was called a bean bun.
[19:23] >> What kind of messy bean bun is that?
[19:25] >> What on earth are these things?
[19:28] >> Mm.
[19:32] >> Added a grain of rice on top.
[19:34] >> Let me help you. I’ve got it, I’ll
[19:36] do it, okay, it’s done, no worries. I
[19:41] once went to a place with my daughter
[19:43] to paint. Does she like to paint? They
[19:45] give you a white canvas, and you just
[19:46] go for it.
[19:47] >> Mm.
[19:48] >> I think one thing that makes children
[19:49] different is that they don’t hesitate
[19:51] .
[19:51] >> That’s true.
[19:52] >> They just paint, they don’t have any
[19:53] concept of whether it's good or not,
[19:55] none at all.
[19:55] >> Right.
[19:56] >> I just sit there. Right, I paint a
[19:58] little, "No, that's wrong," I smear it,
[20:00] smear it, smear it again, wipe it off,
[20:01] wipe it off, and in the end, I say it's
[20:03] a joke, so I just paint it black and
[20:05] write gold characters, because you’re
[20:07] constantly correcting yourself.
[20:09] >> Oh.
[20:10] >> I was thinking about what you said just
[20:12] now, about this inner eye being opened
[20:14] to feel things.
[20:17] >> Maybe yours has never been closed,
[20:19] never been covered up.
[20:22] >> No, because I was very conscious of it
[20:24] when I moved from the mountains to
[20:26] Shanghai. I felt it was fake because
[20:31] walking there makes strange noises; in
[20:33] the mountains, you can’t hear
[20:34] anything while walking.
[20:38] >> Mm.
[20:39] >> When it rains in the mountains, you can
[20:41] smell the scent of the earth.
[20:43] >> When it rains in Taiwan, in Shanghai,
[20:45] you can't smell anything.
[20:47] >> It's just that city vibe.
[20:49] >> Everything is completely fake, and all
[20:51] I saw were adults. My mother would be
[20:53] talking to her friends. They were using
[20:56] meaningless words. Then they wanted me
[20:58] to play the piano for them to listen to
[21:00] .
[21:01] >> I started playing.
[21:04] >> And they just started talking.
[21:06] >> Oh.
[21:07] >> They weren't listening at all. So I
[21:09] left. I thought, "You guys don't
[21:11] understand music at all," so I stopped
[21:13] playing.
[21:15] >> You always felt adults were
[21:16] particularly fake, and they were always
[21:18] thinking about other things; I saw that
[21:20] even with first-grade children. I
[21:23] skipped a grade, and when I transferred
[21:25] to Nankai, I realized I really didn't
[21:27] like the school I went to. They weren't
[21:32] thinking about the state of the nation;
[21:33] they were thinking about boyfriends and
[21:35] glass stockings—that’s what we
[21:36] called them back then.
[21:40] >> Nylons, right?
[21:41] >> It's nylon.
[21:42] >> Uh-huh.
[21:42] >> But those glass stockings back then,
[21:44] they wouldn't break, you know.
[21:45] >> They just wouldn't wear out. My mother
[21:47] used to wear them, and they never broke
[21:49] ; she could wear the same pair for
[21:51] years. Later, the company realized that
[21:53] wasn't making them any money, so they
[21:55] started making them worse, and they’d
[21:57] tear at the slightest touch.
[21:59] >> Mm.
[22:01] >> Anyway, I really, really don't like
[22:03] this kind of phoniness. And I would
[22:08] dream about the mountains. When I woke
[22:12] up in the morning, my pillow would be
[22:14] soaked. I’d be crying, missing the
[22:19] wild mountains, the wild trees, the
[22:21] pines, and the azaleas—there were no
[22:23] paths, you could just wander through
[22:26] them—and I’d feel so, so sad. Then
[22:33] I’d think about this fake city, the
[22:35] fake conversations, the fake melancholy
[22:37] , the fake everything, so when the moon
[22:39] came out, I’d kneel down and swear to
[22:41] the moon that I wouldn't grow past
[22:42] twelve years old.
[22:46] >> Mm.
[22:47] >> I don’t want a life past the age of
[22:49] twelve. My body can grow old until I
[22:53] die, but my heart won't.
[22:55] >> Peter Pan, you are.
[22:57] >> I don't want to be 12.
[23:00] >> Actually, it’s because you never left
[23:02] that core.
[23:03] >> That's right.
[23:04] >> You chose not to leave that behind.
[23:06] >> Yes. Very persistent. Yeah. We might
[23:13] feel there is a set of rules, a set of
[23:14] regulations, and if you follow them,
[23:16] everything seems to become easier
[23:18] because you can gain the respect others
[23:20] give back to you. Because sometimes we
[23:23] seem to really believe in these "names"
[23:25] —like, "I graduated from this school,
[23:27] " which implies...
[23:29] >> I'll have a good job in the future,
[23:31] I'll be this or that; and this world,
[23:33] perhaps compared to your era, is
[23:34] spinning more and more according to
[23:36] these rules. So everyone thinks, "If I
[23:39] can get those things recognized by
[23:41] everyone within these rules, I will
[23:43] succeed, I will be something."
[23:48] >> Take looking at art, for example—we
[23:50] are always told who the masters are and
[23:52] what the world-famous paintings are
[23:53] before we ever even see them, right? If
[23:59] you don't know these names, you feel
[24:01] ashamed.
[24:02] >> Yes, that’s exactly it. That’s why
[24:06] we published a book called*Art History
[24:08] Without Masters*, because why are we so
[24:10] obsessed with "masters"? And so many,
[24:13] many people were surprised. They’d
[24:16] say, "This thing is so good," and then
[24:17] the person's name would be revealed. We
[24:21] say to each other that they paint
[24:23] exceptionally well, but if we look at a
[24:25] big-name artist's work and it's
[24:26] terribly ugly, Chinese people get
[24:28] scared. They say, "I just don't get it.
[24:32] " Actually, that's false. They don't
[24:34] understand, meaning you might say, "
[24:36] They say this is famous calligraphy by
[24:38] Su Dongpo, so why is it like this?""I
[24:40] don't find it comfortable to look at.""
[24:42] Comfortable."
[24:43] >> You'll feel it's your own problem; if I
[24:45] don't think it's good, is it my problem
[24:47] , right?
[24:47] >> Chinese people often think it's their
[24:49] own fault because they don't understand
[24:50] . So I tell everyone, it's not you;
[24:53] when you eat food and say it's not good
[24:55] , it's just your taste. Right? If you
[24:58] don't like it, you know it immediately.
[25:01] >> If someone says it was made by a famous
[25:03] chef or that it's a signature dish, you
[25:05] might think, "Oh, maybe my palate is
[25:07] just not refined enough." You might ask
[25:10] why it's so expensive when it only
[25:11] looks good.
[25:13] >> So it's your own experience with the
[25:15] painting. It has nothing to do with the
[25:18] name. If the food is delicious, no
[25:23] matter what it's called—even if it
[25:25] has some Arabic name I can't pronounce
[25:27] —my preference, whether I like it or
[25:29] not, is my right and my responsibility
[25:31] to determine. Only then do you ask, "Oh
[25:35] , what's this artist's name? Why is it
[25:38] so good?" You have the right to say so.
[25:41] "Oh, this is by the famous Dong Yuan?
[25:44] But I don't think it looks good." And
[25:47] people might say, "That's because
[25:49] you're stupid," and you can just say, "
[25:51] Yes, I am indeed stupid."
[25:54] >> But looking at this, because I see that
[25:56] you train your students...
[25:58] >> Mm.
[25:58] >> For example, you tell them not to read
[26:00] books, it's forbidden to read books,
[26:02] right?
[26:02] >> Just go and feel the painting directly,
[26:04] but...
[26:06] >> If I am someone who knows nothing about
[26:08] art history and has never known what
[26:09] paintings are, should I have some
[26:11] preparation, or should I go see it
[26:12] without any preparation at all? Well,
[26:15] do you need to prepare anything to eat
[26:17] a meal? Like brushing your teeth or
[26:19] something? Do you need to eat something
[26:20] else before you eat your meal? No, it's
[26:23] a...
[26:24] >> Direct, straightforward.
[26:25] >> One-on-one relationship.
[26:27] >> If a person without any preparation
[26:28] sees something good, but can't
[26:30] articulate where the goodness lies, or
[26:32] is it that...
[26:32] >> Why must they articulate it?
[26:34] >> Mm.
[26:35] >> They can say, "I really like it.""Don't
[26:38] walk away, I want to look at it a bit
[26:39] longer." Or, "How much longer do I have
[26:42] to wait? I'm bored, I want to leave."
[26:45] These are two different reactions, and
[26:47] these are the real reactions. This has
[26:50] nothing to do with the brain; it has to
[26:52] do with the heart. Looking at these
[26:56] trees, I can say, "Well, I like all
[26:58] these trees, but I prefer to look at
[26:59] this one longer." You can do that. That
[27:04] is my right.
[27:05] >> Mm. Are you asking a silly adult's
[27:09] question? Did you prepare anything? Are
[27:12] there any hurdles to overcome? It was
[27:14] direct. You fell in love with your
[27:16] husband, did you see that? I fainted.
[27:18] When he saw you, he fainted. That’s
[27:21] when someone introduces you, saying you
[27:23] must meet this person because they are
[27:25] so rich, or so poor, or their father is
[27:27] some high official—but that wasn't it
[27:29] .
[27:30] >> But you still studied art history,
[27:32] isn't that nice? I thought it was about
[27:35] living art. I thought it was "China and
[27:38] art," because back then I didn't know
[27:40] Chinese art was about dead people,
[27:42] rather than us painting things that
[27:44] look Chinese. We happened to live next
[27:48] to the university, so I thought, maybe
[27:50] a PhD is a way to make money, a
[27:52] threshold to cross. I decided to get a
[27:56] PhD, and when I saw "China" in the ABCs
[27:58] , I was thrilled—I hadn't spoken
[28:01] Chinese for 20 years. I thought I could
[28:04] go home. And the first letter was "A"
[28:06] for "art." I thought it was great, but
[28:08] I didn't realize it was entirely about
[28:10] reading and looking at dead people's
[28:12] work.
[28:13] >> But you don't like the work of living
[28:14] people either; you have a lot of
[28:16] criticism for contemporary art, too.
[28:17] >> This contemporary era is just wrong.
[28:19] >> Hmm. I don't think this era is suitable
[28:23] for creation because everyone is so
[28:25] pessimistic. People focus not on the
[28:32] soul, but on things beneath the body—
[28:34] like AI, or what we produce, even
[28:36] leaving it to AI to replace humans.
[28:42] >> Human replacements have already taken
[28:44] the stage, so it’s a world completely
[28:46] devoid of soul. I used to look at
[28:49] contemporary art, and many people say
[28:51] they don't understand it. You look at a
[28:54] pile of things and rush to find the
[28:56] plaque next to it to explain what it is
[28:57] .
[28:59] >> Later, after seeing so much of it, my
[29:01] own feeling is that...
[29:04] >> Good work perhaps doesn't need any
[29:05] explanation.
[29:06] >> That's right.
[29:07] >> I don't need to find that plaque to
[29:09] tell me what it's saying.
[29:10] >> It just has that...
[29:11] >> Even if you don't know what concept
[29:12] it's talking about, if you see it and
[29:14] feel you like it and want to linger a
[29:15] bit longer, that should be good.
[29:17] >> Exactly, yes. Someone once argued with
[29:19] me, saying, "What’s the point of
[29:20] putting a small battery on a belly?" I
[29:22] said, "True, but it makes you feel
[29:24] surprised, doesn't it? Why did they put
[29:26] it there?" It’s a surprise, and then
[29:28] you start to think. My point is, it
[29:30] must first evoke a direct reaction from
[29:32] you.
[29:33] >> Exactly. But for that kind of thing, I
[29:35] wouldn't stay too long. I think it's
[29:37] just scholars—stupid scholars.
[29:39] >> Hmm.
[29:40] >> They’ve been fooled by it.
[29:41] >> Hmm. We could also just hang up a
[29:46] urinal and call it "Lü's Urine."
[29:49] >> Hmm.
[29:49] >> Right?
[29:50] >> It can't be done a second time.
[29:53] >> I'd have Duchamp's name on it. If I put
[29:57] a urinal that no one had ever peed in
[29:59] on display, that wouldn't be very
[30:01] interesting, right? It's only to call
[30:05] attention to me, to my rebellion of
[30:07] spirit, but it doesn't show my art.
[30:10] >> Mm.
[30:11] >> So, adults are just foolish. Foolish
[30:15] adults are convinced by these things
[30:17] and go to attend these exhibitions or
[30:19] whatnot.
[30:24] >> I feel that art history books keep
[30:26] putting Duchamp there, saying this
[30:27] thing is modern art, but that's the
[30:29] downfall of modern art. It can begin
[30:35] the fall from art; you no longer have
[30:37] art. It's just an idea.
[30:39] >> Mm.
[30:40] >> That's not art.
[30:41] >> Mm.
[30:42] >> For me, I feel art is a substitute for
[30:45] religion.
[30:46] >> Uh-huh.
[30:47] >> It is a communication of the soul, like
[30:49] listening to music.
[30:50] >> Mm.
[30:51] >> When you listen to music, you can be
[30:53] moved to tears. And after you finish
[30:58] listening to this music, you are
[31:00] completely changed, because you have
[31:02] heard Beethoven, you have heard Bach.
[31:08] Afterward, you will grow in certain
[31:10] ways.
[31:11] >> Perhaps you aren't even aware of it.
[31:13] >> You grow, but you might not even know
[31:15] you've grown.
[31:18] >> Whether you've had this experience or
[31:20] not, your worldview changes. Speaking
[31:29] of your childhood, since your father
[31:30] was a staff member at the Nationalist
[31:32] government's embassy in Italy, you
[31:34] lived in Italy for a few years when you
[31:36] were very young, right?
[31:38] >> Unfortunately, when World War II broke
[31:40] out, Italy was in the same camp as
[31:42] Germany and Japan. They were in the
[31:44] opposing camp to China.
[31:45] >> So you had to leave the embassy and
[31:46] return to the country.
[31:47] >> Mm. You spent your teenage years in
[31:51] Chongqing, which must have been a
[31:52] particularly difficult period in
[31:54] Chinese history, the War of Resistance.
[31:57] Chongqing was the temporary capital,
[31:59] enduring heavy bombing every day. This
[32:02] very turbulent childhood, what kind of
[32:04] influence do you think it had on your
[32:06] childhood?
[32:09] >> In Italy, there were nannies and
[32:11] servants. So I was very supervised. Mm.
[32:18] >> In Chongqing, we lived in the mountains
[32:21] .
[32:22] >> I went to school with my classmates,
[32:24] and they called me "Yang Pozi"(Foreign
[32:26] Granny). "
[32:27] >> Yang Pozi,""Yang Pozi," actually "
[32:30] Yellow Yang Pozi."
[32:32] >> Because my hair was a bit curly, you
[32:35] see.
[32:36] >> And it was a bit reddish too. But I
[32:38] said I am Chinese; I am Chinese! When
[32:42] everyone had to hide in air-raid
[32:44] shelters during those bombings, I would
[32:46] sneak out because no one knew I had
[32:48] slipped away, and I’d go back to the
[32:50] mountains.
[32:52] >> Weren't you afraid of the bombs? You
[32:53] ran out of the air-raid shelter all by
[32:55] yourself.
[32:56] >> There were planes; I was counting the
[32:58] Japanese planes. They were looking for
[33:00] Chongqing. They couldn't find Chongqing
[33:03] because Chongqing was completely
[33:05] covered in fog, so although Chongqing
[33:07] was bombed, it wasn't...
[33:10] >> It wasn't really harmed too severely.
[33:12] The children weren't afraid?
[33:14] >> No, we weren't afraid at all.
[33:16] >> I feel that with this displaced life,
[33:18] when you asked about the impact, my
[33:20] first thought was that you learned so
[33:22] many languages, all kinds of languages.
[33:25] Secondly, looking at your memories, I
[33:26] get the sense that although you had two
[33:28] parents, they didn't really supervise
[33:30] you much; your father was busy with
[33:32] work, and your mother couldn't manage
[33:34] things, so perhaps you were freed from
[33:36] that kind of restraint.
[33:38] >> And so much of your happiness came from
[33:40] counting shadows on the road by
[33:42] yourself—finding great joy in
[33:44] solitude. In your recollections,
[33:47] despite the displacement, I don't sense
[33:49] any shadow of suffering.
[33:53] >> The road, the road home was actually
[33:55] just one—below our mountain peak was
[33:57] a slope, and there was a rock under a
[33:59] pine tree; I would sit on that rock and
[34:01] look down the mountain, looking at the
[34:04] distant sandbars. Watching the Jialing
[34:09] River shimmering in the sun, you could
[34:12] see it sparkling, so sitting there all
[34:14] by myself was very, very happy.
[34:19] >> I would think of my father, and then
[34:20] listen to see if I could hear their
[34:22] voices, just that.
[34:24] >> It’s as if the whole world belongs to
[34:26] you alone.
[34:26] >> Yes, that's right. That is wonderful; I
[34:30] believe that every parent should give
[34:32] their child a space of their own.
[34:38] >> A space that is off-limits; let the
[34:40] children go there, don't bother them,
[34:42] just let them live in their own world.
[34:48] It’s very important. Behind my house,
[34:52] there was a patch of land where they
[34:54] would throw the ashes from the stove;
[34:56] it was a hillside. So, on top, there
[35:01] were vines—how do you say "vine"?
[35:04] >> Grapes.
[35:04] >> Vines, yes. I could grab the vine and
[35:08] swing like Tarzan, but when I fell,
[35:09] I’d fall right into the ashes.
[35:12] >> Only mountain children could do that.
[35:14] >> That's true.
[35:14] >> You really were a wild child when you
[35:16] were little. I was wild, yes. Alone, I
[35:19] would imagine I was there to defeat
[35:21] Japanese imperialism, just like that, I
[35:23] defeated Japanese imperialism.
[35:25] >> Defeated them, I stomped them under the
[35:27] water.
[35:28] >> Hmm, a young girl's brave, imagined
[35:30] patriotism. But we were also like you
[35:32] when we were small—playing foolishly,
[35:35] having silly fun, not understanding any
[35:37] rules, and not knowing how to read
[35:38] people's expressions. Everyone is like
[35:41] that as a child, but gradually you have
[35:43] to be trained. Yes, slowly you get
[35:46] molded.
[35:46] >> Right, others will educate you.
[35:48] >> You don't have to listen, though.
[35:49] >> You don't dare not to listen; you end
[35:51] up thinking the adults are right.
[35:52] >> There’s a price for not listening.
[35:54] >> Yeah, for example, your parents would
[35:56] say it like this. You're a
[35:57] laughingstock, a girl acting like that.
[36:00] >> Yes, I know. I said if I needed to be
[36:02] spanked, I'd just hold out my hand.
[36:04] >> Oh.
[36:05] >> You hit, you finish hitting.
[36:07] >> And I'm still the same.
[36:08] >> Right. But I would happily hold out my
[36:10] hand. Let me put it this way,
[36:12] >> Actually. Right, we envy how Teacher
[36:16] Xiao Hu seems so free and authentic.
[36:19] >> This kind of life has a price.
[36:21] >> Ah, yes.
[36:22] >> She paid that price.
[36:23] >> Having to be punished.
[36:25] >> Since she was little, whenever she
[36:26] deserved a spanking, she’d take the
[36:27] initiative to get it. So what are we
[36:29] like now? Because we haven't paid that
[36:31] price, after she started working and
[36:33] offended people, this place wouldn't
[36:35] let her do research, that place
[36:36] wouldn't publish her books, that school
[36:38] wouldn't grant her that degree.
[36:40] Basically, you pay all the costs and
[36:42] that's it.
[36:42] >> It's actually a choice, it's a choice;
[36:44] whether you're free or not is truly
[36:46] your own decision.
[36:47] >> Well, we don't really, we don't quite
[36:49] dare to.
[36:49] >> Why not?
[36:50] >> Most people don't dare, thinking people
[36:52] will laugh at them or that they'll be a
[36:53] failure, look.
[36:54] >> That's because you're afraid of what
[36:56] others think.
[36:56] >> Exactly. Don't be afraid of what others
[37:00] think of you; that's their business.
[37:05] >> Right? They think we're no good, they
[37:08] think we're stupid, that's their
[37:09] feeling.
[37:11] >> Hmm. You are free to do that. Please do
[37:14] so. I'll still do what I want to do, as
[37:16] long as I don't hurt you, right?
[37:20] >> In this memoir you're writing, although
[37:22] you've only reached age 11, there's
[37:24] still a long way to go. Is there a
[37:28] particularly exciting chapter after you
[37:30] grew up that you'd like to share, and
[37:32] at roughly what age?
[37:34] >> Oh.
[37:35] >> Beyond 12 or
[37:40] >> Well, I think at one point I spoke to
[37:42] 1987, because that year I got the
[37:44] doctorate people said I couldn't get.
[37:48] >> Hmm.
[37:49] >> Hmm.
[37:50] >> But you're 50 already, you just jumped
[37:52] from 11 to 50.
[38:00] >> 51, 54, and then I became the female
[38:03] captain of an Oxford graduate team, and
[38:05] then went to Greece to row a 26-
[38:07] foot-long oar—that thing still makes
[38:10] me shake, it was very heavy, the ship
[38:21] had 171 people rowing the same boat.
[38:26] >> Oh.
[38:26] >> So three levels.
[38:28] >> Oh.
[38:29] >> Top, middle, and bottom; it was a
[38:31] warship.
[38:32] >> I was going to say, that must be an
[38:34] ancient Greek warship, imagining those
[38:36] ships from Greek mythology.
[38:40] >> I just jumped in to try it, it was very
[38:42] comfortable, so I signed up; the
[38:44] recruiter was from our school and told
[38:46] me, "You're too short." I said, "No,
[38:49] you're too tall." Because at that time
[38:57] in our museum there was a uniform,
[38:58] their hoplite uniform, which I could
[39:00] wear, but those six-foot-tall people
[39:02] they were recruiting couldn't.
[39:10] >> They were all too big, these sailors
[39:12] were all too big, I happened to be the
[39:14] exact
[39:15] >> size of an ancient Greek.
[39:18] >> They were just that short.
[39:20] >> So I felt very comfortable there, but
[39:22] the others all felt cramped or
[39:23] something.
[39:26] >> I think for a 54-year-old woman, other
[39:28] women that age are worrying about
[39:30] retiring soon. Has my job rank been
[39:33] settled? Is my partner's job rank
[39:36] satisfactory? Did the kids get into the
[39:39] best universities, are they bringing
[39:40] honor to the family? These are the
[39:42] things women in their 50s think about.
[39:44] >> Oh.
[39:45] >> When you were in your 50s, you were
[39:47] thinking about going on a Greek ship. I
[39:48] was rowing a boat in the UK. You were
[39:51] teaching classes and also raising kids;
[39:53] was that hard? All of these things
[39:55] combined.
[39:57] >> No, I made a big one. A naughty one,
[40:02] >> It was shaped like a sausage, very long
[40:04] , so I...
[40:05] >> Yes.
[40:06] >> It was about this high. So when the
[40:08] child cried, I would put him in there.
[40:11] >> He would just stand there and cry. And
[40:12] I could watch. I said my mom would take
[40:15] a stool, flip it over, put me inside,
[40:17] and I wouldn't run away while she ate.
[40:20] >> You just put the child in the "cage"
[40:22] you made? My goodness, "inviting the
[40:24] gentleman into the urn," this is an
[40:26] artist mom, she can just make an urn
[40:28] and stuff the kid in it.
[40:29] >> And then?
[40:31] >> And then he was very angry. Yeah, but
[40:34] that's just how it is, being pregnant
[40:36] is more fun. Being pregnant, you can
[40:41] eat a lot and also climb trees, I was
[40:43] very energetic.
[40:45] >> Why would you still climb trees?
[40:47] Pregnant people don't climb trees.
[40:49] >> I climbed trees because I wanted to
[40:51] make wine.
[40:52] >> Ah, because...
[40:56] >> You went to pick what?
[40:58] >> Apples.
[40:59] >> Oh.
[41:01] >> The apples that fell to the ground, I'd
[41:03] put them in a big bag and take them to
[41:05] a place to turn them into juice.
[41:08] >> Mhm. And then...
[41:12] >> I put them into a whisky cask, a big
[41:14] wooden barrel for making whisky, it
[41:16] smelled so fragrant.
[41:23] >> And in there, if you want to make very
[41:25] good wine, you put the apples in,
[41:27] including some branches, some little
[41:29] bugs, even some meat.
[41:34] >> Ah, and some meat?
[41:35] >> You need ground meat. That is, minced
[41:39] meat.
[41:41] >> And fat, that is...
[41:43] >> Fat, yes.
[41:44] >> Put the fat in, and then...
[41:47] >> Is it drinkable?
[41:49] >> Oh, it's so delicious. Incredibly
[41:51] delicious.
[41:53] >> And you were pregnant then.
[41:57] >> After getting pregnant, this wine isn't
[41:59] ready for several months. You went
[42:03] through this whole process, exactly,
[42:05] just to clarify.
[42:08] >> Brewing wine and climbing trees aren't
[42:10] things other pregnant women usually do.
[42:13] Most pregnant women wouldn't prepare
[42:14] for childbirth this way.
[42:18] >> So, in every aspect of your life—
[42:20] whether as a student, a mother, or a
[42:22] teacher—I feel like you’ve never
[42:24] given up on this spiritual pursuit.
[42:28] >> Worldly affairs haven't overwhelmed
[42:29] that part of you.
[42:31] >> No, not at all, that's true. That is
[42:33] the most important thing; it is our
[42:35] soul.
[42:36] >> So, have you ever encountered anything
[42:38] truly difficult? I'm particularly
[42:40] curious because you seem so capable, as
[42:42] if nothing could ever stop you. Was
[42:45] there ever a hardest moment?
[42:47] >> I felt extremely depressed. I really
[42:50] couldn't get past it. The question
[42:54] wasn't whether the Palace Museum had
[42:56] fakes.
[42:59] >> Hmm.
[43:00] >> The question was whether there were any
[43:02] authentic works and how to find them.
[43:04] When I discovered that, I actually
[43:06] developed a fever.
[43:08] >> Hmm.
[43:09] >> I couldn't get up for three days.
[43:11] >> Were you anxious because there were no
[43:13] authentic works?
[43:15] >> Yes, the issue was that serious.
[43:19] >> Because when I was writing about
[43:21] paintings, there wasn't a single
[43:22] authentic work from the Five Dynasties,
[43:24] and very few from the Northern Song.
[43:26] There is only one authentic Southern
[43:28] Song painting. And works by the four
[43:29] great masters of the Yuan Dynasty are
[43:31] extremely rare.
[43:31] >> Hmm, what about those in the Imperial
[43:33] Palace?
[43:33] >> There is one, "Dwelling in the Fuchun
[43:35] Mountains," just that one piece.
[43:37] >> Just one.
[43:38] >> What about Wu Zhen?
[43:39] >> You said Wu Zhen has three and a half
[43:40] works.
[43:41] >> Yes.
[43:42] >> And Ni Zan only has one?
[43:44] >> Ni Zan has only one.
[43:45] >> Yes. But Ni Zan’s paintings aren't
[43:47] said to be widely circulated? Well, of
[43:50] course, because Ming Dynasty people
[43:52] said we judge whether someone from
[43:54] Jiangnan is refined or vulgar by
[43:55] whether they have a Ni Zan painting in
[43:57] their home.
[44:00] >> So everyone started worshipping them.
[44:04] >> And that's when the fakes appeared. You
[44:06] know, Laozi had a brilliant saying
[44:08] about this: once everyone perceives
[44:10] something as beautiful, it immediately
[44:12] becomes ugly. I suddenly understood
[44:15] that phrase.
[44:16] >> Later, a miracle happened. Wang came
[44:19] over and said, "Do you want to come
[44:21] over for a month to help me?"
[44:23] >> Oh, our designer Wang Shu, is it? Hmm.
[44:26] >> So, we ate together. Three architects.
[44:29] I told them, "Since you are here, you
[44:31] can see our big exhibition at the
[44:33] Palace Museum called 'Southern Song.'
[44:36] Incredible Southern Song ceramics are
[44:38] out, and the paintings are out too.
[44:40] There is one real one, do you want to
[44:43] come see it?"
[44:44] >> There is one that is real.
[44:45] >> Yes, it appeared, a real one. He said,
[44:48] "You said there’s one?" I said, "Yes.
[44:51] " It’s completely different from the
[44:53] others. They said, "Oh." Which one is
[44:56] it? I said I wouldn't tell them, let's
[44:59] see if you can find it. Uncle Wang said
[45:03] I'm not going back, I'm staying in
[45:05] Taiwan, so the next day we all, the
[45:07] architects, ran to the Palace Museum.
[45:11] They searched and searched but couldn't
[45:13] find it. I said it's that
[45:15] >> exhibition. They looked again and said
[45:19] they couldn't find it. I said that
[45:21] piece is different from the others; you
[45:23] need to find one that doesn't look like
[45:24] any of the others. These architects all
[45:28] found things already published in books
[45:29] , which were all fakes—paintings that
[45:31] had been published in books. I thought,
[45:34] but the photographer asked, "Is it this
[45:36] one? That was it?" He found the
[45:38] original. Because the photographer
[45:41] hadn't been "contaminated," he didn't
[45:43] know art history, he hadn't read the
[45:45] books, he just looked for something
[45:46] completely different from the others.
[45:50] It's very obvious that those who are "
[45:52] contaminated" can no longer...
[45:54] >> I would feel very surprised. It's this
[45:58] thing—a person's spiritual character,
[46:00] the emotions you mentioned, even
[46:01] preserved through these brushstrokes
[46:03] for thousands of years. If it's
[46:07] authentic, we, as people today, can
[46:09] still feel this essence, which I find
[46:11] ...
[46:12] >> This is so magical. Yes, that is the
[46:15] wonder of brush and ink. Did you see it
[46:18] yesterday?
[46:20] >> That painting by Tang Yin called "The
[46:22] Scholars."
[46:23] >> Hmm. Right? It satirizes those
[46:26] self-proclaimed great scholars,
[46:28] portraying their arrogant attitudes as
[46:30] very, very ridiculous, isn't it?
[46:33] Because he didn't paint them with
[46:35] respect, but rather vividly depicted
[46:37] this...
[46:39] >> Very funny, very sarcastic, right?
[46:42] >> Very satirical.
[46:43] >> That's when I was reading this book of
[46:44] conversations. Because at that time,
[46:46] you weren't very old, you were still a
[46:48] student, right?
[46:50] >> Well, I was in my thirties. Hmm,
[46:52] talking with Mr. Wang Jiqian. Yes.
[46:55] >> The very first question you asked him
[46:57] was: "We often talk about 'spirit
[46:58] resonance'(qiyun shengdong), what does
[47:01] 'qiyun' mean? What is 'qiyun'?" Hmm.
[47:03] >> When I saw that question, I thought, "
[47:05] Oh my, I probably don't know what he's
[47:07] talking about either, what 'qiyun'
[47:09] refers to. But how could you have the
[47:10] nerve to ask, 'Hey, what is qiyun? What
[47:12] does spirit resonance mean?'"
[47:14] >> Actually, in these questions...
[47:16] >> Teacher Xiaohu, you often rebutted Mr.
[47:18] Wang in there. Mr. Wang would say it's
[47:20] like this, and you'd say, "I don't
[47:21] think it's like that." Mr. Wang would
[47:23] say, "How can you not see even this?
[47:25] Isn't that stupid?" And then you'd say,
[47:27] "If you can't teach me, doesn't that
[47:28] make you even more stupid?" I laughed
[47:30] when I saw that.
[47:31] >> Yes, so when I saw you ask about 'qiyun
[47:33] ,' it was because I saw Mr. Wang
[47:34] Jiqian's answer.
[47:35] >> He really explained the concept of "Qi
[47:37] Yun"(spirit resonance) to me clearly.
[47:39] >> Mm. Because I always thought, and he
[47:43] said, you might think "Qi Yun Ling Dong
[47:45] " just means the brushwork is
[47:46] particularly agile or fluid, but that's
[47:49] not necessarily true, because some
[47:50] people's brushwork is very solemn.
[47:54] >> Yet it still has spirit and resonance.
[47:56] >> Mm.
[47:58] >> So, "Qi Yun" actually refers to their
[48:00] individual traits, including their
[48:02] worldview and the personalized, unique
[48:04] expression of their inner emotions.
[48:08] That is Qi Yun. Right.
[48:10] >> To use a very simple analogy, if you
[48:12] say a person is very vivid, it doesn't
[48:14] necessarily mean they have to be agile
[48:16] or dexterous.
[48:18] >> Mm.
[48:18] >> They could be a very steady, honest
[48:20] person, and they can still be vivid and
[48:22] resonant.
[48:25] >> Right, and I have another feeling: when
[48:27] you talk to someone who is truly
[48:28] knowledgeable like him, they don't seem
[48:30] to fear any counter-arguments you raise
[48:32] or any questions we might consider
[48:34] simple. Is it that the more
[48:37] knowledgeable someone is, the less they
[48:39] put on airs? I think the more an expert
[48:41] loves their field, the more willing
[48:43] they are to discuss it when you ask
[48:44] them questions.
[48:46] >> What makes a person put on airs?
[48:49] >> Ignorance.
[48:50] >> Ignorance.
[48:52] >> It's just adults, that kind of "adult
[48:54] disease," because they want others to
[48:56] think they are someone different from
[48:57] who they actually are. More beautiful,
[49:01] smarter, or better than themselves in
[49:03] some way?
[49:05] >> There's a psychological need there.
[49:07] They feel they aren't enough, so they
[49:09] have to pretend to be something else.
[49:12] It starts from age 12, because Mom says
[49:14] , "Your hands are so dirty, how can you
[49:17] go see people? What will they think of
[49:20] the way you're dressed?" So parents
[49:22] make you feel that what others think is
[49:24] what matters.
[49:25] >> Mm.
[49:26] >> You could say I don't care. Therefore,
[49:30] I finally understood one thing: why it
[49:32] was precisely him who ultimately found
[49:34] this method of authenticating paintings
[49:36] . It’s because when we judge whether
[49:41] a painting is genuine or valuable, we
[49:43] might not seriously engage in a
[49:44] dialogue with the painting itself.
[49:49] >> Because we might not have the
[49:50] confidence, thinking that we don't
[49:51] understand it.
[49:53] >> We find it easier to look at the
[49:55] collectors 'seals on it, whether the
[49:57] Emperor left an inscription, and these
[49:59] details; but these details are external
[50:01] —they belong to others, not the
[50:02] painting itself.
[50:04] >> The brushwork of the painting is what
[50:06] represents the artist themselves.
[50:08] >> And for a person like him who doesn't
[50:09] care at all about what others think,
[50:12] >> He strips away all those outer layers
[50:13] the moment he starts,
[50:14] >> Right.
[50:15] >> And then he studies the brushwork
[50:16] itself directly.
[50:17] >> Right.
[50:18] >> So he pioneered another way of making
[50:20] judgments.
[50:21] >> That is the most fundamental one.
[50:24] >> It’s not another way, but an internal
[50:26] one.
[50:27] >> For most people, you know.
[50:28] >> They all look at the outside.
[50:30] >> They look at the appearance first, the
[50:32] clothes, the education, the title, and
[50:34] the reputation. Then we judge what kind
[50:35] of person they are.
[50:36] >> Right, how foolish, don't you see?
[50:38] >> Mm.
[50:39] >> I think experiencing real things and
[50:40] seeing real things in childhood is
[50:42] especially important.
[50:43] >> It is.
[50:44] >> He has real experiences, real feelings,
[50:47] and luckily, he wasn't corrected or
[50:49] conditioned.
[50:50] >> Not corrected, right.
[50:54] >> That’s because after we become too
[50:56] socialized, we lose that original, keen
[50:58] sense of life. Because his intuition is
[51:03] so sharp and hasn't been corrupted, you
[51:05] know, he can instantly dialogue with
[51:07] the painter's brushwork—the person's
[51:09] solemnity, sublimity, and sadness can
[51:11] immediately connect with his own
[51:12] feelings. You saw that.
[51:15] >> We couldn't connect.
[51:16] >> Did you see it at first sight? Or
[51:18] >> You can also feel it. Didn't I just see
[51:20] you and we hugged? Why did we hug? I
[51:23] didn't even know his name.
[51:25] >> I looked into his eyes and I wanted to
[51:27] hug him.
[51:28] >> Mm.
[51:31] >> Just like that, because I felt a kind
[51:33] of atmosphere. And I felt that I liked
[51:36] this soul. He didn't refuse me either.
[51:40] He reached out his hands, and I hugged
[51:42] him.
[51:44] >> I thought I had forced a hug on you. I
[51:46] >> Alright, it was a mutual approach.
[51:49] >> When I see him, I just feel like I like
[51:51] this person. I don't know who this
[51:54] person is or where they are. It doesn't
[51:56] matter. It doesn't matter at all. It
[51:59] doesn't matter if they studied
[52:01] traditional classics. Whether you are a
[52:05] cleaner, a painter, a politician, a
[52:07] president, or a student. It’s just
[52:11] you, and I just like your...
[52:13] >> Original self.
[52:15] >> Yes. From this face, from the eyes, I
[52:19] feel that I like the soul within. My
[52:23] soul likes this soul, and that's enough
[52:25] . But I'm also interested in your
[52:27] current state of life. You are living
[52:30] in seclusion in the mountains now. Is
[52:33] life bitter? How can a person manage to
[52:35] live so simply?
[52:36] >> Very simple, not necessarily bitter.
[52:39] >> Mm.
[52:39] >> Mm, the food is always the same, and I
[52:42] also find it boring.
[52:44] >> Eating the same heap of rice or
[52:46] whatever day after day. But the
[52:49] Nepalese people are always very happy.
[52:53] He was incredibly poor, but when he
[52:55] worked, he would sing, and then he
[52:56] would work for a few hours. Once he had
[53:00] earned enough money for the day, he
[53:02] would stop. He would just say, "Thank
[53:04] you, I'm going home." You ask him why
[53:06] he's not doing more, and he says, "I
[53:08] have enough.""I'll come back tomorrow."
[53:11] Whereas Chinese people say, "How much
[53:13] can I earn per hour?" and I'll keep
[53:16] working until I'm exhausted. They just
[53:19] want to be happy. Mm.
[53:22] >> So they have a different standard. As
[53:26] for my own life, you're asking if I
[53:28] take medicine; for my heart, I have to
[53:30] take a certain type. There are five
[53:35] different ones, like diuretics, ones to
[53:37] lower fat, and so on. These medicines,
[53:41] I looked them up, and every single one
[53:44] can be fatal.
[53:46] >> Ah.
[53:47] >> I checked their side effects online.
[53:50] Each one is a very dangerous drug. So I
[53:54] say to myself, "Time to take my poison,
[53:56] " but this stuff is best not taken on
[53:58] an empty stomach. So, before taking
[54:02] this poison, I have to eat something, I
[54:04] have to have breakfast. Sometimes I
[54:07] don't have time for breakfast, so I'll
[54:09] take a sip of olive oil. Or eat a large
[54:11] spoonful of sesame paste, no, peanut
[54:13] butter.
[54:15] >> To line my stomach, then I can take
[54:17] these meds. Usually what we do relates
[54:21] to translation, and new ways of living.
[54:26] When I go back this time, it will be
[54:28] the start of ten years of work.
[54:31] >> Ten years of work.
[54:34] >> Calculating by our past speed, it will
[54:36] likely take another ten years to finish
[54:39] . You don't live in a city like
[54:43] Kathmandu while in Nepal, right?
[54:46] >> I live in the city now because my house
[54:48] collapsed—well, it hasn't collapsed
[54:50] yet, but it's about to. It's a mudslide
[54:53] .
[54:54] >> We get heavy rain from May to October.
[54:58] >> So now, the house that used to have
[55:00] land in front, no longer has land in
[55:01] front.
[55:03] >> There is a 70-meter drop. And we
[55:09] haven't found a way to shore up the
[55:11] wall with stones yet.
[55:15] >> You were living in a house on the
[55:17] hillside that was about to collapse.
[55:18] >> Did you move somewhere where someone
[55:20] takes care of you?
[55:21] >> No, we—I just moved into the city. So
[55:24] I feel everyone admires Teacher Hu for
[55:27] being in such good shape at 90. In
[55:29] reality, it's not that he has no
[55:30] illnesses or pains, or that he's
[55:32] different from us, but rather that
[55:35] >> he pays the price that needs to be paid
[55:37] .
[55:37] >> These illnesses and pains, the prices
[55:40] to be paid—to him, it's not a big
[55:42] deal. He has no great material pursuits
[55:45] , so he doesn't worry. And more
[55:48] importantly, there is always a powerful
[55:50] , metaphysical, spiritual pillar of
[55:52] support. When a person is always
[55:55] thinking about this, other things right
[55:56] in front of them don't seem like much.
[55:58] If I have food to eat, that’s great;
[56:00] if there’s nothing to eat, that’s
[56:02] no problem either.
[56:03] >> Yes, that’s how it is.
[56:04] >> I think painting in our country is
[56:06] quite different from the West. In other
[56:08] countries, they have professional
[56:10] painters; those painters just paint,
[56:12] and they paint their whole lives. In
[56:14] our country, it’s literati painting.
[56:16] Literati usually held government posts;
[56:18] they were officials at the same time,
[56:20] so they weren’t professional painters
[56:22] . We did have professional painters,
[56:25] but they were looked down upon.
[56:28] >> They were considered unimportant as
[56:30] painters, right?
[56:31] >> Yes, that’s also the stupidity of the
[56:33] literati.
[56:33] >> Hmm.
[56:34] >> Even the great Fan Kuan painted for a
[56:37] salary, and Guo Xi also painted for a
[56:39] salary. Then, in the Qing Dynasty, all
[56:41] the literati painted for a salary;
[56:43] people who didn't know how to paint
[56:45] were all painting.
[56:46] >> Hmm.
[56:47] >> Your profession is to paint, but you
[56:48] don't have the profession of a painter.
[56:50] Am I an amateur professional painter?
[56:52] Is that how you say it?
[56:53] >> Yes, yes, yes—it couldn’t get any
[56:56] stupider than that. Stupid literati.
[57:03] Isn't it stupid? It's so stupid, as I
[57:06] said. M.
