短剧是专为中老年人量身定制的“电子毒品”！掏空钱包是小，毁掉思维才最致命！#短剧 #短视频 #手机 #洗脑 #经济 #信息茧房 #家庭 #互联网 #养老 #圆桌派

短剧成中老年“电子毒品”：掏空钱包事小，毁掉思维更致命 节目围绕时下风靡的微短剧、短视频以及算法时代对人类认知与生活方式的重构展开深度探讨。窦文涛与嘉宾们剖析了中老年微短剧荒诞反转的戏剧公式及其背后的阶层爽感机制，并结合神经科学关于“脑腐”的研究、瓦尔特·本雅明论“灵光消逝”以及居伊·德波的《景观社会》理论，反思现代人在碎片化信息轰炸下的感官过载、时间感知异化与表演性人格。随后，对谈由媒介批判自然延伸至个人修养与生活处世，援引庄子“吾生也有涯”与“知止”的适度哲学，最终在老友间互相揭短、调侃窦文涛昔日对老板的赤诚“拍马屁”与英文发音糗事的欢笑声中收尾。 微短剧市场规模已迅猛扩张至425亿元人民币，逼近全国电影院线500亿元总票房；其依托一分钟高频反转与阶层复仇的极简模式，正对传统影视工业与大众叙事耐受度产生深远冲击。 (5:32) 牛津词典将“脑腐”（Brain rot）评选为2024年度词汇；神经生理学脑成像研究证实，长期被动接受碎片化短视频或过度依赖AI生成，会导致大脑神经元激活程度显著下降，对思维硬件造成实质性损伤。 (8:00) 经济学家凯恩斯曾预言技术进步将使现代人每周仅需工作15小时，但当下的高速交通与智能移动技术不仅未带来充裕闲暇，反而压缩了时间颗粒度，催生出更紧密的日程与更普遍的系统性焦虑。 (21:05) 短视频算法虽因迎合低阶刺激受损于主流声誉，但对身体机能退化、行动受限的高龄老人而言，健康与旅行类微视频提供了关键的情感慰藉，填补了现代家庭代际交流的日常空白。 (25:47)

窦文涛与嘉宾围绕微短剧和短视频的狂飙现象展开讨论，分析算法与碎片化媒介如何重塑现代人的时间感知、认知结构及情感表达，并在信息超载中反思个体如何守住心理专注与内在秩序。 微短剧公式与算法驱动的时空压缩 (0:00) 以中老年霸总短剧为代表的微短剧，高度依赖身份反转、阶级复仇与瞬间暴富的叙事模板。从保洁阿姨反转为世界首富，到工地工人开豪车惩罚前女友，这类情节迎合了人类渴望不劳而获与跨越阶级壁垒的心理，本质与马克·吐温的《百万英镑》一脉相承。同时，市场体量展现出惊人爆发力：国内微短剧市场已达42.5亿元，逼近约50亿元的院线电影票房。 这种生产逻辑推动了注意力周期的极度收缩。从微博140字演进到5秒甚至1秒的高完播率切片，受众的注意力被无限切碎。短视频新闻甚至要求观众频繁暂停重放才能读完字幕，演变为一种令人疲惫的视觉高警觉状态。这种短平快的刺激全面瓦解了传统电影需要数分钟铺垫世界观的耐心叙事。 脑腐危机与碎片媒介的“双重虚无” (8:00) 脑神经影像学研究显示，长期被动消费碎片短视频或将思考外包给AI，会降低神经激活程度，削弱深层认知与组织想象能力。这一认知耐力的长期衰退，促使《牛津英语词典》将“脑腐”（brain rot）选为2024年度词汇。这种消耗在心理上呈现为“双重虚无”：刷视频时时间飞逝，停下后大脑一片空白，未能沉淀任何丰满的记忆印记。 媒介巨变还拉开了两代人之间的认知鸿沟。年长一代在成长过程中依靠扎实的长文本阅读建立了稳固的认知框架和思辨底盘，面对算法洪流仍能筛选借用；而数字原住民从幼儿期即沉浸于屏幕多任务操作，天然适应这种超速运转，甚至无法共情长辈对“内心宁静”与“数字焦虑”的怀念。 景观社会下的代偿与感官过载 (14:19) 居伊·德波在《景观社会》中预言的“看与被看”在当下被推向极致。短视频不仅提供了美食与旅行的虚拟经验代偿，让人通过观看他人体验来满足欲望，还全面催化了大众的表演欲。无论是在长安街天桥上自信开播的素人，还是镜头前瞬间落泪的年轻创作者，公众场合的自我表演已演化为常态，甚至反向促使身处镜头包围的人进入表演性的“心流状态”。 与此同时，现代人陷入了无法忍受感官空白的“贪食”状态。从吃饭必须配“下饭剧”，到洗澡时必须播放播客或音乐作为白噪音，眼、耳、身等感官被持续轰炸。老子“五色令人目盲”的警示重现于日常，即时的信息流剥夺了静默反思的间隙，诱发了如过山车般的情绪剧烈起伏。 庄子知止之道与主体驾驭 (51:42) 面对算法与海量碎片的冲击，窦文涛提出将外部媒介均视为可供汲取的“一本书”。成熟的思考者只要保持内在主动性与甄别力，哪怕吸纳的是哲学博主的二手提炼，也能将其转化为个人图谱的养料。这种态度并不意味着无限追逐知识，而是需要重拾庄子《养生主》“吾生也有涯，而知也无涯；以有涯随无涯，殆已”的适度哲学。 嘉宾指出，真正的解法在于“止于其所不知”，在认知边界前安然停步，不贪多、不过度消耗。相较于消费网络上稀释的心灵鸡汤或对日常情绪过度进行病理化标签，直接回归老庄与佛家等古典智慧源头，以“及格即圆满”的节制对抗数字时代的贪婪，才能在喧嚣的信息洪流中守住内心的踏实与真诚。 讨论最终表明，短剧与算法虽然带来了生理层面的认知退化和情绪异化，但技术加速已不可逆转。与其陷入对过去的怀旧哀叹，个体更需要依靠内在定力与古典智慧设定边界，在被动接受与主动驾驭之间寻找平衡。

[11:21] 窦文涛: 既不是宋朝也不是秦朝，起码这个时代有空调 [28:23] 窦文涛: 五色令人目盲 [32:42] It turns out there are so many reasons to kill in this world; of course, you could say it boils down to greed, resentment, and hatred. But all sorts of things can trigger the impulse to commit murder—perhaps just a look, a rejection, or even a seduction. [35:55] Chu T'ien-wen: Yesterday I was passing by a place, and a group of teenage high schoolers in uniforms walked past me, flirting and laughing. I could actually smell the hormones they were emitting, wow, that intense scent. But in that moment, I didn't feel sad... I had no reaction, but rather a bit of compassion. All the heartbreak, betrayal, selling out, expectations, and turmoil they have to endure to satisfy those hormones, none of it has anything to do with me... Being able to be a more quiet, peaceful person—this state of mind is happy. [37:56] Guo Degang: People say I became an overnight success, but which night was it? [41:44] If I were your family member, I'd be worried; if you were a stranger on the street, I'd praise you. [41:44] To put it bluntly, if you didn't pay me, I wouldn't even want to speak. [43:37] When you fear something, it exists; when you face it, it disappears. [48:19] I think I’ve overrated suffering. I would rather have never suffered and lived an uneventful, ordinary life. [51:42] 吾生也有涯，而知也无涯；以有涯随无涯，殆已！ [51:42] 考500分录取，多考一分都是浪费，多考一分就是耍流氓！ [54:13] 窦文涛: 乱世相逢，承蒙凤凰栽培，没齿不忘。

[0:00] This "CEO falls in love with me" drama, [0:02] Professor, as a teacher of modern [0:04] literature history, the plot is so [0:05] fragmented—it’s so short I can’t [0:07] even remember it. [0:09] >> It’s about this middle-aged, sort of [0:11] like a housekeeper aunt. [0:13] >> The CEO wakes up after a night to find [0:16] a 45-year-old housekeeper aunt lying [0:18] next to him. Wait, I’m getting [0:21] confused; I think the premise was a 27- [0:24] year-old heiress drugged this 27- [0:27] year-old CEO. Then the CEO, to protect [0:30] his virtue, refuses to give in and even [0:32] has the housekeeper aunt kick her out [0:35] or something. Then he wakes up to find [0:38] this 45-year-old housekeeper aunt [0:40] sitting there, and she doesn’t even [0:42] want money or compensation. The CEO [0:44] falls head over heels for her, and [0:46] after falling in love, he takes her [0:47] home to meet his parents. When they get [0:49] home to meet his parents, the CEO’s [0:51] father realizes this is the person who [0:53] seduced him when he was young—wait, [0:54] this is a cliché, this is so cringey. [0:56] >> Cliché. [0:57] >> So, then. [0:58] >> It’s a resurrection; actually, the [1:00] resurrection is also a cliché. [1:02] >> It’s like, "You’re seducing my son [1:04] now," and then they keep humiliating [1:06] her, humiliating her, humiliating her [1:07] —slapping, pouring red wine—but of [1:09] course, the plot immediately flips, and [1:11] everyone who humiliated her breaks down [1:13] and gets on their knees, right? And [1:15] then the climax hits. Turns out this 45 [1:18] -year-old housekeeper aunt is actually [1:20] the world’s richest person. I feel [1:23] like these short videos, these kinds of [1:26] things—like Wang Shuo said, you can [1:29] easily binge-watch them for ten hours [1:31] —is this what "short" means? Some say [1:36] this era started with Weibo’s 140- [1:38] character limit, demanding short text, [1:40] and then videos just kept getting [1:42] shorter, to the point where now you see [1:45] ... [1:46] >> Maybe 15 seconds. [1:48] >> 15 seconds, five seconds—because the [1:51] completion rate for one second is 100%. [1:53] You know how fast news short videos are [1:55] now? You have to pause them. A page of [1:58] subtitles for a news clip only lasts [2:00] three or five seconds, but the content [2:03] requires a rewatch. [2:04] >> You have to rewatch it, which is [2:06] annoying and actually wastes more time. [2:08] You have to keep pausing and pausing [2:10] just to see the content of the news. [2:12] >> Don't you guys feel like it’s a bit [2:14] like, you know, having your eyebrows [2:16] singed by fire? [2:17] >> But you know, it’s interesting, [2:18] because I’ve really wanted to watch [2:20] these short dramas lately, thinking [2:22] there might be some kind of guilty [2:23] pleasure in it. Hey, you see, it even [2:25] has a slight feminist touch at the end. [2:28] People should make more progressive [2:30] short dramas in the future, like a [2:32] female CEO falling for a middle-aged, [2:35] frail, average guy. [2:36] >> Yeah, [2:37] >> I mean, [2:38] >> It’s basically trying to save us. [2:40] >> Right, it’s void, totally void, but [2:42] you see, it’s also very relevant to [2:45] the present. [2:46] >> It’s like rich people are so obsessed [2:48] with pretending to be security guards. [2:51] Or just some regular guy, and the plot [2:54] twists are so funny. It starts with a [2:57] construction worker moving bricks on a [2:59] job site. [3:00] >> Then his girlfriend says she doesn’t [3:02] want him, and the next episode— [3:04] because it’s one minute per episode [3:06] —what happens? The next episode, one [3:08] minute per episode. [3:09] >> The next scene is definitely her being [3:12] with some rich guy. Then, a car—well, [3:17] not a Rolls-Royce, maybe a Mercedes in [3:20] these short dramas—the door opens, [3:22] and the construction worker steps out [3:25] in a tuxedo. You can tell it’s a [3:30] cheap one, but that’s how they do it. [3:33] Bam, he’s like, "I am the chairman of [3:35] the World’s Richest Club," and [3:37] she’s supposed to fall to her knees. [3:39] And then, the woman who dumped him, oh, [3:42] does she regret it. I’ve never [3:45] watched this kind of show, but I’m [3:47] curious. The lighting, the costumes, [3:50] it’s all so incredibly crude. [3:52] >> Plus, they reuse the same scenes and [3:54] the same actors over and over. [3:56] >> I was just suggesting to Youku earlier. [3:59] I said it’s totally worth it for real [4:01] artists to get in and create [4:03] high-quality content. We could do it. [4:06] We could make short videos with plot [4:08] twists. [4:08] >> That’s very difficult. [4:10] >> Not difficult at all. Just imagine [4:12] being a rich person. At most, imagine [4:14] being the richest person in the city. [4:17] Because their imagination is too broad [4:19] and they have no concept of money, the [4:21] numbers are never accurate. They throw [4:23] around "hundreds of billions." If you [4:25] knew a little bit, you wouldn't say [4:27] billions, even millions would be decent [4:29] , right? They just come out as a [4:31] billionaire right off the bat. [4:33] >> What are they chasing? It’s just the [4:35] thrill. [4:36] >> Right. [4:37] >> But why do they need this specific [4:39] thing to get a thrill? Think about it. [4:42] But I think this thrill has always been [4:43] the same; like when we were kids, I [4:44] loved watching that movie*The Million [4:46] Pound Bank Note*. [4:47] >> Right. [4:48] >> It's just like this knight story; [4:49] people crave miracles in their lives. [4:51] These miracles could be getting rich, [4:53] or thinking, "Maybe my parents didn't [4:55] give birth to me, maybe my real parents [4:57] are billionaires." I think this is [4:58] human nature, and it never changes. [5:00] When I was a kid, I used to fantasize [5:03] about that. I think it might have been [5:05] after reading some mind-bending [5:08] literary work or watching a movie with [5:10] deep satirical meaning. [5:12] >> But kids don't get the satire; you just [5:14] think, "Wow, wouldn't it be even better [5:16] if I actually had a million pounds?" [5:18] >> No wonder I always wondered, "Why am I [5:20] not an heir to a fortune?" [5:22] >> Right, it's actually the same thing. [5:24] That's exactly what literary structural [5:27] functionalism is—it's human [5:29] psychology, breaking down barriers of [5:31] class, gender, and race. Actually, I [5:33] want to offer you a way to get rich, [5:35] since short dramas are only a minute [5:37] long. You take a 60-minute episode and [5:40] cut it into 60 segments, right? Each [5:43] episode is one minute, as discussed, [5:45] and maybe even less is fine. [5:47] >> We'll charge three dollars to watch the [5:49] second episode. [5:50] >> We are truly honest people. For my show [5:54] , we could make an episode last two and [5:57] a half hours. In the end, we did an [6:00] extra episode for free as a volunteer [6:02] effort because we'd already filmed it [6:04] and couldn't bear not to show it to the [6:07] audience. So you see, even someone as [6:09] money-minded as me has something in [6:11] their heart that can't be bought; I'm [6:14] too obsessed with it for just two [6:16] minutes. [6:16] >> People actually gave it a five-star [6:19] rating on Douban. No, but even an [6:21] honest person like you needs to keep up [6:23] with the times. You obviously can't [6:25] make it like that now; people won't [6:28] finish watching it. And look, the other [6:30] day, a veteran performing artist sat at [6:33] our table and let out a long sigh, [6:35] saying the data is out—for the first [6:38] time, the short drama market has [6:40] surpassed our film market; those were [6:42] last year's figures. Year. [6:45] >> The film market is 50 billion, and the [6:47] short drama market is 42.5 billion. You [6:49] can see that the authorities want to [6:51] guide us now. I think what that mayor [6:53] said was quite interesting, saying that [6:55] these short dramas need to improve [6:57] their quality. [6:58] >> And he looks at this as literature, [7:00] saying that short dramas need to evolve [7:03] from expressing emotions to expressing [7:05] feelings, and from expressing feelings [7:07] to expressing sentiments. That is the [7:10] path you all should take. [7:12] >> And to some extent, it will change the [7:14] aesthetics of our future generations. [7:15] First of all, look, because of short [7:17] dramas and short videos, our perception [7:19] of time has already been altered. Back [7:20] when we were kids, you’d sit there [7:22] reading a book, and after an afternoon, [7:23] you’d look up and see it’s dark, [7:24] and you’d finished the book. Nowadays [7:26] , sometimes I feel like I’ve been [7:27] reading for a long time, but I look up [7:29] and only ten minutes have passed. Our [7:31] perception of time has been [7:32] fundamentally altered, and furthermore, [7:34] our aesthetic sensibilities have [7:35] changed too. For instance, even before [7:38] short-form dramas, Hollywood films had [7:40] already changed. In the past, you’d [7:42] watch for five minutes before a small [7:43] crisis appeared; now, that’s not the [7:45] case. As soon as the opening credits [7:47] end, the very first scene is already a [7:49] mini-crisis. We’ve had a fundamental [7:51] shift in our expectations for plot [7:53] twists and pacing. That is why I feel [7:55] there is no going back. The core focus [7:58] has already shifted. [8:00] >> There’s a recent scientific research [8:02] report; its conclusions are similar to [8:05] previous studies by others, but it uses [8:07] a larger scale and a broader sample [8:10] size from across the world. It relies [8:14] entirely on physiological techniques. [8:19] >> They compared people who use AI for [8:21] creating, writing reports, or reading [8:24] with those who use it less, and by [8:27] scanning their brains, the structural [8:29] changes are very clear. In fact, there [8:35] was previous evidence showing that [8:38] people who frequently use AI or watch [8:41] short videos have lower brain activity [8:43] levels. You might think you’re seeing [8:48] a lot of action, watching one thing [8:50] after another, but your brain's [8:52] activity levels and cognitive depth— [8:54] I’m not just talking about the mental [8:57] side, but the actual operations within [8:59] your brain—can be scanned, and that [9:01] level of activation is actually lower. [9:04] Because you aren’t forcing yourself [9:07] to actively understand, organize, think [9:10] , or imagine; you’re just sitting [9:12] there receiving. Conversely, those who [9:15] don’t consume massive amounts of [9:17] short videos or AI-generated content [9:19] have much higher brain activity, and [9:22] it’s not just while you’re using [9:24] them—it affects you long-term. As I [9:27] said, there’s no going back; it’s [9:29] not just our perception, the entire [9:31] operation of the brain, the very [9:34] hardware, has been changed. So, last [9:36] year in 2024, Oxford had its annual [9:39] word of the year for the [9:41] English-speaking world, and the 2024 [9:43] Oxford Word of the Year was "brain rot. [9:46] " [9:46] >> Mm. " [9:47] >> Brain rot," which translates into [9:50] Chinese as the decaying of the brain. [9:54] >> Its basic explanation is a decline in [9:57] human cognitive ability, leaving us [9:59] only suited for consuming fragmented [10:02] information. It basically means that [10:04] people are gradually becoming dumber. [10:07] >> Current research on the brain has [10:09] discovered a specific trait in how we [10:12] remember time. When you experience a [10:15] beautiful moment—for example, being [10:18] with a loved one or enjoying beautiful [10:21] music—you feel like time flies. Good [10:24] times always pass quickly, right? It [10:28] feels very short, but when you look [10:30] back on it later, that period becomes [10:33] exceptionally vivid. Conversely, for [10:37] those uncomfortable moments in life— [10:40] like working or sitting in meetings— [10:43] when you're really annoyed, you feel [10:46] like each day drags on. At the time, it [10:50] feels like forever, but later on, in [10:53] your memories, it actually becomes very [10:56] short. [10:57] >> But now, they say that if you watch a [11:00] massive amount of short videos, what is [11:02] actually happening? It's a double [11:06] whammy: it feels fast at the time, and [11:08] afterward, you remember nothing—as if [11:11] it never happened. It's just like [11:15] watching our show; it's a double void [11:17] that leaves no trace on your brain. [11:21] However, you could say that I actually [11:24] don't think anything is entirely [11:26] negative. In this regard, I differ from [11:30] many intellectuals; I am a selfish [11:33] person. If I were to worry about the [11:35] common people, or for the public, or [11:37] for the world, then I would also agree: [11:39] "Oh my, what are we going to do? People [11:41] are just playing games, what are we [11:43] going to do?" So many people are [11:44] scrolling through short videos, [11:46] becoming more and more foolish. But [11:48] from my own personal experience, I feel [11:51] this is the era I most want to live in. [11:54] Not the Song Dynasty, nor the Qin; at [11:57] the very least, this era has air [11:59] conditioning, right? In fact, there [12:03] exists a type of master—I'm not [12:06] saying I am one—but I imagine that [12:08] you can master it, as long as you have [12:11] enough "drive." As long as you have [12:16] enough of a quest for wisdom and a [12:18] demand for self-improvement, anything [12:21] that comes your way can actually be [12:23] used to your advantage. Everyone says [12:27] that mindlessly scrolling through short [12:30] videos is bad, but man, I honestly [12:32] don't see a difference. I have dozens [12:35] of books spread across three tables, [12:38] and I just read a bit here and a bit [12:40] there. My reading habits have already [12:43] become like this. In reality, all media [12:46] in this world is nothing but a book. [12:48] Hmm. [12:49] >> Aren't short videos books too? I feel [12:53] it's like a servant, always trying to [12:56] second-guess your intentions, pushing [12:58] you whatever you like. But I also find [13:03] that when I look for knowledge I value [13:06] —take philosophy, for example—some [13:08] of the accounts I filter through do [13:11] have a tendency to oversimplify. But as [13:16] I said, for people with our experience, [13:19] we know what's been simplified, so we [13:21] don't mistake that for the classics, [13:24] right? But is it inspiring? Of course [13:28] it's inspiring. We were just talking [13:30] about practicing our own ability to [13:32] summarize and distill information. I [13:35] think many content creators, well, on [13:37] one hand, you have to realize that [13:39] summarizing someone's work in three [13:41] sentences isn't reliable. But at the [13:44] end of the day, those three sentences [13:46] they summarized are still that person's [13:48] words. They’ve helped me select them, [13:51] and I don't have the time—not in this [13:53] lifetime—to read all of their work, [13:55] so getting a little bit is something. [13:58] Every little bit, I integrate it into [14:00] my own personal knowledge structure. So [14:03] , if you put it that way, this era— [14:05] whether it's short videos or whatever [14:08] —I watch classics, I watch everything [14:10] . It provides more, as long as you can [14:12] —I mean, it's just like a gourmet, [14:15] you have to know how to choose. [14:17] >> Isn't that a help to you? [14:19] >> I actually agree with what you said; I [14:21] don't think it's inherently good or bad [14:24] . You know, I read a book by a French [14:26] thinker named Debord who passed away in [14:29] the 90s; he wrote a book titled "The [14:32] Society of the Spectacle." [14:34] >> He actually foresaw the life we live [14:36] today, which is a life entirely defined [14:39] by being watched. In a way, our own [14:41] experiences have been replaced by being [14:44] watched and being presented. [14:46] >> It's as if I don't need to live it [14:48] myself anymore. Through videos, through [14:50] watching, it feels like it has replaced [14:53] the act of experiencing things [14:54] firsthand; it's being watched and [14:56] presented at all times and in all [14:58] places. Recently, before I came here, I [15:00] was doing a show in Shanghai related to [15:02] hosting, and a lot of it involved [15:04] documenting those kids in a reality [15:05] show format. They gave me an office, [15:07] and there were cameras set up all [15:09] around it. So I stayed inside, fully [15:11] aware that something was filming me. I [15:14] realize I am in a state of being [15:15] watched, and you—well, I’m not a [15:17] regular person, but slowly you ignore [15:18] its presence, and then I become highly [15:20] focused because I know I cannot do [15:22] anything inappropriate, so what should [15:24] I do? Let me read a book. So, under the [15:26] gaze of many cameras, I finished a book [15:29] at an unprecedented speed. This is a [15:31] particularly bizarre state. [15:33] >> Finished it in a flow state. [15:35] >> In a flow state—at first, it had a [15:37] performative quality because you were [15:38] watching me, okay, so I’ll read a [15:40] book, I’ll just do that, I won't move [15:41] and I'll just read, and as I read, I [15:43] got absorbed into it. I was in a state [15:44] of being watched, which is the state of [15:46] our modern life—we are being watched [15:48] anytime, anywhere, and we are [15:50] performing. [15:50] >> Wow, this is the very performance [15:51] experience of those veteran actors from [15:53] the Beijing People's Art Theatre on [15:54] stage. [15:55] >> Being watched, [15:56] >> They know they are being watched, yet [15:58] they are fully immersed in it. [15:59] >> Gradually, they get into it. [16:00] >> Oh, you're an expert, you see it in our [16:02] home. [16:03] >> The hand is there. So, if we follow Dou [16:06] Wentao's point, I believe we all have [16:09] had such experiences—taking in many [16:11] things and integrating them into our [16:14] own thought systems, so from this [16:16] perspective, we are a very fortunate [16:18] generation. When we grew up, there were [16:22] basically no short videos, not even [16:24] mobile phones, and not even the [16:26] internet. That foundation, the inherent [16:29] foundation, and the various structures [16:32] of knowledge. We already had a [16:36] framework, and then suddenly we faced [16:38] this onslaught of various short videos [16:41] and all sorts of novel things. We can [16:45] choose to take what we need, what [16:47] resonates with us. Otherwise, if you [16:52] were like this from birth, you wouldn't [16:54] have much capacity; let alone managing [16:57] wealth, you wouldn't have the [16:59] foundation to handle anything longer, [17:01] more serious, or more complex. We have [17:05] the benefits of both sides, or perhaps [17:07] the characteristics of both sides. [17:10] >> I think we are lucky. [17:12] >> I agree with his view—that most [17:14] famous Frankfurt School thinker, Walter [17:17] Benjamin, [17:17] >> He very early on noted that film is an [17:20] art form that can be perfectly [17:23] reproduced. [17:23] >> Mm. [17:24] >> He said that before this, the core [17:27] concept when we appreciated art was [17:29] what he called "aura." It’s like how [17:31] we all watched a movie when we were [17:33] kids that we couldn't forget for a long [17:35] , long time. Ah, is this the best one? [17:38] Is it called "aura"? [17:40] >> Yes. [17:41] >> That is "aura," as we translate it. [17:44] >> But since the advent of cinema, it’s [17:46] about "shock"—it’s meant to startle [17:49] . People today are all being [17:50] transformed, and we are being [17:52] transformed as well. You walk into the [17:53] cinema, a few minutes in, the woman [17:55] goes to take a shower, then she comes [17:57] out to get dressed—what is going on? [17:59] No one comes to assassinate her, [18:01] nothing happens; we’re all hoping for [18:03] some event, but you can’t just have [18:05] her come out and eat again, what’s [18:07] the point? We have been transformed, [18:10] but we still hold the memory of reading [18:12] a Turgenev novel as kids; after reading [18:15] it, a teenager would just be left [18:17] feeling lost for ages. Now, there are [18:20] no works that make you think like that [18:23] for so long. [18:24] >> But will our future lifestyle be slowly [18:26] altered and alienated? Often, watching [18:29] and being watched has become more [18:31] important than the experience itself. [18:33] For instance, at night, I scroll [18:35] through short videos, like food-related [18:37] ones, as if by watching, I... [18:39] >> You’re so thin, yet you like [18:40] scrolling through food videos. I really [18:43] do. [18:43] >> You like good food, but you don't eat [18:45] much, right? [18:45] >> I do like food. Look, all the rumors [18:49] about what I eat and don’t eat are [18:52] nonsense. [18:52] >> Right, he’s going to sue me. I said [18:55] back in the day in Hong Kong, he only [18:57] ate seven grains of rice, but later he [18:59] didn’t dare—I said, make it [19:01] twenty-seven. Right, my point is, look, [19:03] when you scroll through short videos, [19:05] many of your desires are satisfied just [19:07] by watching. Like going somewhere to [19:09] travel, eating delicious food, or [19:11] watching something—it’s as if by [19:12] watching the video, you no longer need [19:14] to experience it yourself. To me, this [19:16] is a kind of alienation. Will our [19:18] future human interactions undergo a [19:20] fundamental change? It already happened [19:23] long ago. If you keep mentioning "to [19:26] see or to be seen," that was initially [19:29] an urban life experience. Before the [19:32] internet age, because cities had more [19:34] people—and now, the whole population [19:37] ... [19:38] >> With higher population density, more [19:41] strange things happen, and the media is [19:44] more developed. On this, I might have [19:47] more to say; Shanghai has it too, but I [19:49] grew up in Hong Kong. [19:53] >> From around when I was ten years old, [19:56] entering the 70s and 80s, I would see [19:58] people walking on the street, [20:00] especially, say, waiting for a bus at a [20:03] bus stop. The vast majority of, [20:07] especially, young people—you look at [20:10] their posture, it’s always like this. [20:13] For example, in many Hong Kong movies, [20:15] you see actors like Stephen Chow, or [20:18] even... [20:19] >> Right, and when they stand, they always [20:21] have to do that, yes. Actually, that is [20:23] "to see or to be seen." Watching and [20:25] being watched seems to be constant. [20:27] >> Oh, so he was doing that on purpose. [20:29] >> Yes, it's called irony. Because in Hong [20:32] Kong, we are used to it, so when we see [20:34] him like that, we respond with irony. [20:37] He feels, yes, like there's always a [20:39] camera on him, and you could show up on [20:42] TV or in a gossip magazine at any time, [20:45] even if you're just an ordinary person. [20:49] So for us, growing up in the city, we [20:52] pay extra attention to how we act, like [20:55] not doing certain things in certain [20:57] places, or not squatting like that. [21:00] >> Watching short videos has changed our [21:02] own lives. This used to happen in [21:05] cities before, but now with short [21:07] videos and the internet, it's different [21:09] . We have to check in everywhere, and [21:13] there’s a saying about life that if [21:15] something wasn't filmed, or even worse, [21:18] not filmed and posted, it simply [21:20] doesn't exist. [21:21] >> Exactly. [21:23] >> Everything has to be converted into a [21:25] photo you've taken and posted, all [21:27] those details. [21:28] >> Like my story from earlier. Right, just [21:31] like someone filming me before I [21:33] started. [21:34] >> Exactly, you care if someone is filming [21:36] . [21:36] >> Actually, there's a key distinction [21:39] here: whether you live with peace of [21:41] mind and whether you are happy; no [21:43] matter what you encounter, if you enjoy [21:45] it, there's nothing wrong with that. [21:47] >> So whether you can adapt to it actually [21:50] depends on that. Some people can enjoy [21:52] whatever new things the world brings, [21:54] no matter how it changes, which is [21:57] awesome. But back then, there was [21:59] Keynes, the famous economist, who said [22:01] that by our time, we'd only work 15 [22:03] hours a week because technology would [22:05] replace us. [22:06] >> Working three days. [22:08] >> Right, but his prediction... [22:10] >> His prediction didn't come true. In [22:12] reality, the more advanced the [22:13] technology and the more convenient the [22:15] tools, the busier you become. Just like [22:16] someone saying, "I don't have to take [22:18] an ox cart anymore; I take a plane, and [22:20] I can fly from Shenzhen to Beijing in [22:22] two hours." Then they say, "But I land [22:24] in Beijing at noon and have to head [22:26] straight to a meeting in the afternoon. [22:27] " [22:27] >> Mm. Do you understand? This is a [22:30] technological scam; why are we still [22:32] scrolling on our phones even when we're [22:34] on a plane? [22:35] >> Exactly, why hasn't it brought us [22:37] leisure? Why, as things become more [22:39] advanced—wasn't the purpose of [22:40] development supposed to be giving us [22:42] free time to play, right? Leisure, [22:44] right? But why has it made us busier [22:47] and more stressed? I think I've [22:50] listened to the whole discussion, and [22:53] I’ve heard almost all these terms— [22:55] anxiety, tension—and we really need [22:57] to find peace of mind. It’s all [23:00] because we once had a quieter era. As I [23:03] just said, we are a lucky generation, [23:06] with that foundation of a quiet and [23:09] slow-paced time. But later on, imagine [23:12] if you were born looking at a [23:14] smartphone, starting from two or three [23:16] years old. [23:18] >> To them, all the language you use— [23:20] like "anxiety,""busy," or "must have [23:23] peace of mind"—simply doesn't exist. [23:26] It’s meaningless. From the moment [23:30] they enter this world and start [23:32] building relationships with it, they [23:34] are multitasking, doing all sorts of [23:37] things. Growing up, this is their life, [23:41] their world. So when we discuss all [23:45] these anxieties and worries related to [23:47] being "fast," for a large portion of [23:50] them—and since the future belongs to [23:52] the young—it’s not a problem at all [23:55] . To them, it’s as natural as [23:59] breathing. Only we, having experienced [24:02] that era and felt the beauty and peace [24:05] of those days, worry about losing it [24:08] and feeling increasingly crowded. They [24:12] look at us, they listen, and young [24:14] friends today might not understand what [24:16] you’re worried about at all. " [24:18] >> Isn't it just supposed to be this way?" [24:21] >> Does that worry you, Lu Yu? Do you feel [24:23] like you're constantly bustling about, [24:24] or that you're constantly being pushed [24:26] to move faster? [24:27] >> The busyness I have now is something I [24:29] chose for myself. It’s my own choice. [24:31] I could slow down, but I don't think I [24:34] would enjoy that kind of life much. So, [24:36] I choose one that I enjoy, because I [24:38] feel that speed is relative; there is [24:40] no single standard. We humans are [24:42] always accustomed to using our own [24:44] lives and past experiences as a [24:46] benchmark. Anything that differs from [24:48] our perception is deemed "too fast" or [24:50] "too slow." In reality, is there such a [24:52] thing as absolute speed? If you put it [24:54] that way, I am actually quite [24:55] pessimistic in the end. I wonder if one [24:57] day we will die because of the [24:59] technology we’ve invented. Look at [25:01] the meeting in Beijing with Sam Altman [25:03] recently. He was quite pessimistic. He [25:06] believes AI has already exceeded his [25:08] imagination. There are now three [25:10] scientists who fully regret the [25:12] earth-shattering technologies they [25:14] invented: Oppenheimer, Altman, and Tim [25:16] Berners-Lee, the inventor of the World [25:19] Wide Web. Because when they were [25:20] inventing them, they couldn't imagine [25:22] what the future would hold. But [25:24] personally, I think they’re having it [25:26] both ways; a scientist couldn't [25:27] possibly fail to foresee the pros and [25:29] cons of their invention, yet they chose [25:31] to invent it anyway. After inventing it [25:33] , they feel like there’s indeed a [25:35] problem, and then they start to express [25:37] regret. What I mean is that perhaps the [25:39] ultimate development of technology [25:41] exceeds my imagination; it might be [25:42] terrifying, but at this moment, this is [25:44] our generation's [25:45] >> fate. [25:47] >> They say that, for example, product [25:49] managers for short-video platforms can [25:51] develop a product every time they [25:54] discover a human weakness. So, in the [25:57] end, everything is targeted at your [26:00] human weaknesses. [26:01] >> It's all algorithms. [26:03] >> Even the way we swipe on phones. [26:05] >> But looking at the algorithms, they [26:06] lean quite low-brow. This shows that [26:08] the broader the coverage, the narrower [26:10] it actually becomes in certain [26:11] perspectives. That is, everyone's [26:13] interests. To me, short videos—I [26:15] don't know why you dislike them; I [26:16] actually appreciate them. Dislike? I [26:19] don't dislike them. We don't dislike [26:21] them. OK, OK, so we have a consensus. [26:24] Dislike, dislike, that's why I said [26:26] let's talk, we don't— [26:27] >> For me, the function of short videos is [26:30] that before I go to sleep at night, [26:32] after I've finished most of my work, I [26:34] have two ways to put myself to sleep: [26:36] either play computer games or watch [26:39] short videos. [26:40] >> And short videos really have a benefit. [26:43] I like watching clips of concerts, so I [26:45] put on my headphones. The more you [26:47] watch, the more they send you. [26:49] >> Right? They have all kinds of good [26:52] content, giving you these snippets. [26:54] With headphones on, the effect is [26:56] excellent; I watch them and drift off [26:58] to sleep. So, personally, not only do I [27:01] not dislike them, I am very grateful [27:03] for short videos. Why? Because my [27:06] mother—my mother is over 80, and she [27:09] hasn't been well; these past two years [27:11] her health has been poor, her legs— [27:13] >> are difficult to walk on. But she is [27:16] someone who is usually very cheerful [27:19] and loves to talk and go out, so you [27:21] can imagine how miserable this is. [27:24] Every time I see her, we talk about [27:26] what she does, and she says, "Oh, [27:28] videos." She doesn't necessarily watch [27:31] dramas, just all kinds of short things. [27:34] Once, I sat there chatting with her for [27:36] ten minutes, but we ran out of things [27:38] to say; parents and children don't [27:40] always have that many topics. So we [27:42] just sat there, me scrolling on my [27:44] phone, and her scrolling on her tablet. [27:47] Then I snuck a glance at my mother, and [27:50] I was deeply moved. I saw a smile on [27:53] her face that I was unable to provide [27:55] for her. She was watching all kinds of [27:58] short videos, hosted by various people, [28:01] talking about travel, fitness, health, [28:04] and maintenance. Seeing my mother smile [28:09] , I was moved, but also ashamed that I [28:11] couldn't bring that kind of smile to my [28:14] 80-year-old mother. So how grateful I [28:19] am for short videos; they bring my [28:21] mother happiness. Yes, you’re [28:23] absolutely right. The issue is actually [28:27] this: why are our senses constantly [28:30] being hijacked? I’ve had a feeling [28:33] lately—look, our senses are just so [28:36] greedy. Take eating, for example. Many [28:39] people say, "Luyu’s show" or even our [28:42] show is a "perfect companion for a meal [28:45] ." The food is delicious, but our [28:47] senses can't handle any emptiness; we [28:49] have to watch a show to enjoy the meal [28:51] more. See, "mealtime shows" exist [28:53] exactly for this reason, right? Like, [28:55] back in the day, was it "Qiang Qiang"? [28:58] " [28:58] >> Qiang Qiang" was right at noon. " [29:00] >> Yuan Zhou Pai" had many, too. [29:03] >> Many people even play audio while [29:05] taking a shower—wow, they just have [29:08] to have music or something on. I’m [29:13] not sure if this is good or bad, but it [29:16] makes me sigh. It’s like our eyes, [29:19] ears, nose, tongue, and body—the five [29:21] senses—are all insatiable. They’re [29:24] so gluttonous. Actually, on the other [29:27] hand, it means you can't tolerate any [29:29] emptiness. Just like you mentioned [29:30] meditation or the like—it’s [29:32] essentially about shutting down the [29:34] senses. [29:34] >> I don’t know what’s healthy or [29:36] unhealthy, I just feel we are so greedy [29:39] ; sometimes we’re truly never [29:41] satisfied. [29:42] >> The five senses need to be stimulated [29:44] simultaneously, they all need input. [29:46] And that demand for input is pure greed [29:49] . You talk about short videos; I’m [29:51] not saying they’re bad, but they [29:52] certainly have downsides because [29:54] anything in excess is harmful. The more [29:56] they satisfy your greed, the more you [29:58] realize that—much like overeating— [30:00] it’s not great for you. If you’re [30:02] the type of person who feels, "I need [30:04] to fill every single moment with [30:05] sensory input." Sometimes I turn it [30:07] around and ask, "Why are you so afraid [30:09] of empty space?" Why are you so afraid? [30:12] Why do your ears absolutely need some [30:13] form of nourishment even while you’re [30:14] showering? Why can’t you just listen [30:16] to the sound of the water? Or just [30:18] allow yourself a moment of silence. [30:20] >> But why do you think watching a [30:22] binge-worthy show is any different from [30:24] you staring at your food or listening [30:26] to that background noise? To me, the [30:28] sound of the show I'm binging is just [30:30] like the sound you hear while showering [30:32] ; they are the same—they both provide [30:34] me with a sense of comfort. Yeah, [30:36] that’s my personal feeling. I’m [30:39] someone who can’t stand sensory voids [30:42] , but lately, I’ve felt there’s an [30:45] issue. I’m constantly filling myself [30:48] up, letting my eyes, ears, and mind [30:51] absorb everything every second. Of [30:54] course, they’re baiting me, right? [30:57] But I just wonder, like Laozi said, [31:00] when "the five colors blind the eye," [31:03] is it possible to just...not take [31:05] anything in? [31:06] >> Instead of reflecting on yourself. It's [31:09] better to blame others. I don’t want [31:11] that right now. I just feel like, at [31:13] this moment, what I need...Then [31:14] that’s what I need. Look, there used [31:16] to be a saying, and I always thought, " [31:18] Wow, that’s such a great line." We [31:19] often say "love is the smallest unit of [31:22] communism." I think short-form video is [31:24] , to some extent, that. In the past, we [31:26] believed that only those of us who had [31:27] formal, professional training were [31:29] qualified to produce certain types of [31:30] videos. Now, that barrier has been [31:33] completely broken. At the same time, [31:35] for everything that gets shorter, there [31:36] will always be a place for the [31:38] long-form. You just said we’re all [31:40] controlled by algorithms; they say [31:41] podcasts are currently the only medium [31:43] that can escape the algorithm. [31:45] >> Alright, I’ll check out your podcast. [31:47] >> No, it's about what you said regarding [31:49] needing companionship. When I’m [31:51] taking a shower, I can't listen to a [31:53] one-minute or ten-second video. I need [31:55] to listen to something long-form, like [31:57] an hour minimum. Listening while [31:59] showering? We can’t hear it clearly, [32:01] right? Have you tried? [32:03] >> I have tried. You just take the phone [32:06] ... [32:06] >> You turn off the water, right? Just [32:08] standing in there. [32:10] >> You put the phone on the side, turn the [32:11] volume up to the max, and you can [32:13] actually hear it while showering. I... [32:15] >> I’ve honestly never heard of that [32:17] before. I mean, look, even being unable [32:19] to be idle for a single moment, I think [32:22] that’s also a way of showing a love [32:24] for life. A netizen once told me that [32:26] when they go running... [32:27] >> They would listen... [32:29] >> Listen to my audio where I talk about [32:31] Zhang Anlin. At the time, I thought [32:33] they were teasing me, like... [32:35] >> Like they were bringing you down, but [32:37] then someone said it’s because they [32:39] respect you. [32:39] >> It’s a compliment. Oh, a compliment? [32:42] Okay. Honestly, what you said makes me [32:46] feel a bit ashamed. These past few [32:48] months, I’ve been listening to [32:50] dark-themed podcasts, aside from yours. [32:53] >> Yours is a bright podcast, but I listen [32:55] to really dark ones—all about strange [32:58] cases from around the world. [33:00] >> Oh, that’s fine too. [33:04] >> Since my new novel involves a lot of [33:06] killing and dark, criminal themes, [33:09] I’ve been drawing inspiration from it [33:11] to the point of obsession, and [33:13] listening to it seriously makes my [33:16] heart run cold. Because it turns out [33:22] there are so many reasons to kill in [33:24] this world; of course, you could say it [33:27] boils down to greed, resentment, and [33:29] hatred. But all sorts of things can [33:34] trigger the impulse to commit murder— [33:37] perhaps just a look, a rejection, or [33:40] even a seduction. I kept listening, and [33:45] in the end, besides helping me find [33:47] inspiration for my novel, it made me [33:50] doubt myself. At my age, I’ve always [33:53] considered myself a good person, or at [33:56] least not a bad one. But... [33:59] >> I like people so much. Yet, after [34:02] listening to all that, I wonder, am I [34:04] really such a good person? I have that [34:06] same greed, resentment, and hatred in [34:08] my heart. [34:09] >> Exactly. [34:10] >> It’s just that nothing has happened [34:12] to trigger it yet. It’s a question of [34:15] levels—what is good and what is bad, [34:17] right? If we look at it this way, [34:20] it’s easier to handle, which is why [34:23] Westerners consider Marx and Freud [34:25] their greatest thinkers. Everything we [34:28] just discussed, Freud had already [34:30] anticipated. When Freud talked about [34:33] art, he said everyone is an artist. [34:35] When he first said that, no one thought [34:38] of it as a form of comfort from a [34:40] psychological perspective. Given the [34:42] chance, what is art? It’s the release [34:45] of the subconscious; it’s what [34:47] emerges after dreams have been [34:49] suppressed for too long. So now we have [34:52] the technical means to do it. We have [34:55] smartphones, so everyone is an artist [34:57] —this is Freud’s prophecy, which [35:00] stands right alongside the prophecies [35:02] of Marx. True, so while Freud’s [35:05] theories might not all hold up now, the [35:07] concepts he introduced are particularly [35:10] helpful for making certain things clear [35:13] . For example, I’ve recently felt [35:15] that most of the suffering that [35:17] torments me basically comes from my ego [35:20] failing to meet the demands of my [35:22] superego—to put it colloquially. [35:25] >> It’s the moral demands I place on [35:27] myself. [35:28] >> But my true self honestly can’t do it [35:31] ; I just can't, you know? And that [35:33] makes me feel especially miserable. [35:36] >> Do you know why? [35:37] >> Because you have an "id." [35:39] >> Right, the id, exactly. [35:41] >> Because the ego is formed by the [35:42] interplay between the superego and the [35:44] id. So, your ego fails the superego [35:47] because there is an id underneath. [35:49] >> So, why do people need to...? What do [35:51] you mean by this "id"? It’s basically [35:54] desire, I suppose. [35:55] >> Well. It’s like when you talk about [35:58] whether you’ve become worse or better [36:00] , I found something quite interesting [36:02] that an old guy once said. He said, " [36:05] You know, what’s happening now? [36:07] It’s, uh, my physical state declines [36:09] year by year, while my moral standard [36:11] rises day by day." Don't you find that [36:13] statement really interesting? [36:15] >> Actually, a lot of the time, as your [36:17] desires fade, you start looking at [36:19] things, [36:20] >> and you become more compassionate. [36:22] >> Yes, exactly. That reminds me of a [36:26] saying, Wentao, do you remember? Many [36:29] years ago on our show, the Taiwanese [36:32] writer Chu T'ien-wen, [36:34] >> Chu T'ien-wen, yes, I remember that [36:36] time, that episode where she talked [36:39] about it. She said, "Yesterday I was [36:42] passing by a place, and a group of [36:45] teenage high schoolers in uniforms [36:47] walked past me, flirting and laughing." [36:51] "I," Chu T'ien-wen said, "could [36:53] actually smell the hormones they were [36:56] emitting, wow, that intense scent." But [36:59] in that moment, Chu T'ien-wen said, I [37:02] didn't feel sad. Because I've reached [37:04] this age. I had no reaction, but rather [37:07] a bit of compassion. All the heartbreak [37:10] , betrayal, selling out, expectations, [37:13] and turmoil they have to endure to [37:15] satisfy those hormones, none of it has [37:17] anything to do with me, or at least [37:20] it’s not that important to me anymore [37:22] . Being able to be a more quiet, [37:25] peaceful person—this state of mind, [37:27] as Chu T'ien-wen described, is happy. [37:30] So that description of yours is also [37:32] quite fun from a literary perspective, [37:34] right? About physical states getting [37:37] lower and lower. [37:38] >> Physical ability declining year by year [37:41] , [37:41] >> moral standards rising day by day. [37:43] >> Yes, I feel happy for her. [37:46] >> It’s a subtle critique, illustrating [37:48] that our morality and physiology define [37:50] our humanity. [37:51] >> It’s just that kind of thing, oh, [37:53] really. [37:53] >> What kind of thing? [37:54] >> I don’t know. [37:56] >> That’s all there is to life, isn’t [37:58] it? What is it, really? It’s about [38:01] seeking peace—can you be at peace, [38:04] can you be happy? Some people blame [38:07] society, technology, humanity, fate, or [38:10] the world. Actually, of course, we all [38:13] know that life is suffering and living [38:15] is not easy. But the problem is, look, [38:17] emotional issues have become [38:19] particularly prominent now. I actually [38:21] think our frequent discussions on this [38:23] have layers, like regarding short [38:25] videos and short clips—it’s about [38:27] emotion, sentiment, and depth; it’s a [38:29] hierarchy. Human emotions are quite [38:31] pathetic, and do you know why? Your [38:33] brain's instinct is that when you see a [38:35] piece of information, you have an [38:37] emotional reaction to it, right? If you [38:39] don't consume too much in a day, your [38:41] emotions remain relatively normal and [38:44] stable. But if you take in too much— [38:47] really, when I see a peer succeed, I [38:50] get jealous. Right, and if I see a peer [38:54] fail, I feel glad. This emotional [38:56] roller coaster—it's the same for [38:59] young people. People see others living [39:02] such good lives, or having [39:04] opportunities, because all these [39:06] success stories lack the process. They [39:09] just briefly tell you that someone [39:10] bought something and is rich now. Right [39:13] , they don't. You just see them, no. If [39:16] people could see the process, if I knew [39:17] how they got there, that they struggled [39:19] for years. Take Guo Degang, who says, " [39:21] I became an overnight success." Which " [39:23] night" was I a success on? Right? [39:25] Overnight success—when did I actually [39:27] become a success? I spent over a decade [39:28] working silently; back then, there were [39:30] more people on stage than in the [39:32] audience. Why didn't you see that? If [39:34] you consume their success stories [39:37] through short videos, you'll think, " [39:39] >> That's satisfying." [39:40] >> It is satisfying, but also stimulating. [39:43] And because our capabilities—like [39:46] having WeChat—have improved, I've [39:48] found that while work efficiency does [39:50] increase, this rise in efficiency [39:52] creates an illusion of capacity. I feel [39:55] like people think they can do more, but [39:58] in reality, I think we need to practice [40:01] moderation. Because you can do things [40:03] infinitely, you end up with a huge pile [40:06] of tasks—messages to reply to, right? [40:09] "Xu Lao" needs comforting, Lu Yu needs [40:12] something, there's something on that [40:14] platform. And it’s this—half a [40:17] minute of annoyance, half a minute of [40:19] happiness, half a minute of joy, half a [40:22] minute of anger. Is this entire [40:25] emotional issue the reason for the [40:27] anxiety many people feel today? [40:29] >> I agree with his point; he says [40:31] technology brings convenience, but [40:33] people send—like, work-related [40:34] messages to me—my God, starting at 50 [40:36] seconds long, one after another. I saw [40:38] them yesterday and they didn't even [40:40] type, just voice messages. [40:41] >> Voice messages are used without any [40:43] restraint, basically over 50 seconds, [40:45] 50 seconds long. I didn't look for a [40:46] while. And there was already a pile. [40:49] It's just the changes brought by [40:50] technology. Call it importance; we [40:52] don't have that much, I've accepted it. [40:54] >> It's the same experience as yours. [40:56] >> Right, that's because he was throwing a [40:58] tantrum, and I had to comfort him. [41:00] >> I think I’m a person with a touch of [41:03] optimism amidst pessimism. You know, I [41:05] see that short-form videos have brought [41:07] about what I consider a very positive [41:08] change in people—everyone has become [41:10] extremely eager to perform and express [41:12] themselves. Once, after our crew [41:14] finished an interview, we had to shoot [41:16] some establishing shots—atmospheric [41:18] B-roll, you know. The crew took me out [41:20] at dusk, past the China World Trade [41:22] Center on Chang'an Avenue, to an [41:24] overpass further east. As soon as we [41:26] got up there, countless independent [41:28] content creators were filming. That [41:30] evening scene with the traffic, it just [41:32] looked really good. My god, they [41:34] thought I was some big influencer [41:36] because I had a large crew with me. I [41:38] saw it and thought, wow. If it were me, [41:40] if I were talking right now and you [41:42] were filming me with people watching, I [41:44] would still feel self-conscious. I [41:45] don't know if you ever have that sense [41:47] of embarrassment. Those kids have [41:49] absolutely no such feeling. A girl came [41:51] over, took a photo with me, then went [41:53] to film her short video and instantly [41:55] burst into tears in front of the camera [41:56] . I still remember what I said back [41:58] then: Who in this society would care if [42:01] you’re crying, or if you’re in pain [42:03] ? She was talking while instantly [42:04] weeping—her performative personality [42:06] was just bursting. I feel this is how [42:08] short-form videos influence everyone, [42:10] but I think this is a good thing [42:12] because you become... [42:13] >> Everyone is an artist. You become [42:15] extremely confident and highly [42:17] expressive. Don't you think this is a [42:20] positive kind of shift in human nature? [42:22] >> If I were your family member, I'd be [42:24] worried; if you were a stranger on the [42:26] street, I'd praise you. [42:27] >> I, I...but you haven't considered the [42:29] differences in personality; it might [42:31] satisfy many people, but...For example, [42:33] for me, if I weren't doing this job— [42:35] starting with my dad, our family has [42:37] always been low-profile. He never liked [42:40] to attract attention his whole life. To [42:42] put it bluntly, if you didn't pay me, I [42:44] wouldn't even want to speak. You see, I [42:46] have absolutely no desire for [42:48] self-expression. I, I'm telling you the [42:50] truth, and I'm not afraid of anything. [42:52] That’s why you see I can’t write [42:54] books either; I have zero desire to [42:56] write. I love reading, but I have no... [42:58] I mean, when I have something to say, I [43:00] only say it to people I'm familiar with [43:02] . You see, haven't scholars lately been [43:04] talking about this "stranger" following [43:06] ? Yes, I prefer small circles, just two [43:08] or three close friends. I tell you [43:10] everything, but I have no desire to [43:12] express anything to strangers. That is [43:14] how I differ from many people. I think [43:17] I really can understand those who have [43:19] an urge to express, so I sometimes have [43:21] trouble adapting to this era. For [43:23] example, at first, I couldn't [43:25] understand posting on Weibo. I’d say, [43:27] if it doesn't make money, why write it? [43:29] Right? Later on, I realized, how should [43:31] I put it? It’s a kind of indirect way [43:33] of achieving one's goals. So, having an [43:35] urge to express is a good thing. [43:37] >> But what you're doing is good; you’re [43:38] guarding your reputation, because if [43:40] you say too much, your insights are [43:41] bound to be diluted. That is a very [43:42] valuable quality in this day and age. [43:45] Uh, how should I say this? I’m afraid [43:48] . [43:49] >> Afraid of what? [43:50] >> I’m afraid of what I can’t control, [43:52] honestly. Making this show, I feel like [43:55] I'm walking on thin ice because it [43:56] involves people I can't control. I [43:58] don’t know if people will judge me [44:00] for saying something wrong. My [44:01] knowledge is always limited, you know. [44:04] I’m not afraid of offending you— [44:05] privately, we can support or challenge [44:07] each other. To be honest, this kind of [44:10] work, being in the public eye— [44:12] everyone wants to be famous, but [44:14] actually, I think it’s a double-edged [44:16] sword. [44:17] >> You know why you’re under pressure [44:18] now? It’s because you know your show [44:20] is being looked forward to. This [44:22] feeling of being anticipated is a sweet [44:24] burden, but at the same time, you feel [44:26] the need to meet everyone's [44:27] expectations, and that pressure is [44:29] enormous. [44:30] >> And then you lose your freedom. [44:32] >> But there is a bottom line: I still [44:34] have to say what I truly believe and [44:36] what I truly see. If it were just to [44:39] meet expectations and please everyone, [44:41] I could say anything, and there are [44:43] other ways to do that. Some people can [44:45] be popular without any risk, but they [44:47] aren't willing to do that. [44:49] >> There are always risks, and there is [44:51] fear in my heart, but I quite like a [44:54] certain saying. When you fear something [44:57] , it exists; when you face it, it [45:00] disappears. If you fear it and stop [45:04] speaking or acting, then that thing you [45:07] fear will exist forever. Some people's [45:13] so-called "fear," or dread of being in [45:16] the public eye—perhaps such people [45:18] crave absolute freedom. That is, they [45:24] don't want to compromise at all; only [45:27] in isolation, in their own environment, [45:29] can they achieve a state where they [45:32] don't need to answer to anyone. I [45:36] don’t have to consider anything, [45:38] because as soon as I go out, I become [45:41] whoever is in front of me. I have to [45:43] consider them, so I’m never quite [45:45] free, though I think that’s as it [45:47] should be. But in that case, such a [45:49] person, deep down in their heart, [45:51] actually wants complete [45:53] self-centeredness. That’s only [45:55] possible if you lock yourself in a room [45:58] alone. But you know, I often find [45:59] myself welling up with tears lately [46:01] when I’m scrolling through short [46:02] videos at night. Have you never come [46:04] across that kind of content? [46:05] >> There’s one type that makes me cry [46:08] every time—when parents, because [46:10] their child asked for a puppy or a [46:12] kitten...Then, on the child’s [46:14] birthday, the parents pull a surprise, [46:16] putting the puppy or kitten in a box. [46:18] When the child opens it, they just [46:20] burst into tears. Those kinds of videos [46:23] are so intense. Every time I see one, I [46:27] definitely tear up; it just brings me [46:30] so much, [46:31] >> That’s not quite it. [46:33] >> I don't keep cats or dogs myself, but [46:36] it still touches me. I’ve realized [46:38] that, really, all literary expression, [46:40] artistic expression, including these [46:43] short videos, sometimes isn't about [46:45] expressing something, but just about [46:47] moving people. Using imagery to strike [46:49] a chord directly. It’s the same as [46:52] what you said; I also often watch [46:53] things at night that make me want to [46:55] cry. I watched one that really made my [46:58] tears fall: a son goes off to serve in [47:00] the military in the Middle East, you [47:02] know, war, danger, he was gone for two [47:04] years. Then he returns. His mother is [47:07] an elementary school teacher, and I [47:09] don't know why someone was filming her [47:11] class, but the students all knew [47:13] because they saw her son sneak back and [47:15] hide behind the classroom door. [47:17] >> I think I’ve seen that one. Right, [47:20] and then those students purposely asked [47:22] the teacher, "Teacher, how is your son? [47:25] ""How long has it been since you’ve [47:27] seen him?" And the teacher replied, "My [47:29] son is currently on a mission serving [47:31] in the military. I feel very honored [47:34] and proud. I miss him so much. If he [47:37] were to suddenly return, I..." and then [47:39] she couldn't go on. She was missing her [47:42] son, and then suddenly he came out from [47:44] behind the door. You’re seeing the [47:47] same clip. It’s something similar to [47:49] that. [47:50] >> Ah, and then the mother, wow, and that [47:52] kind of thing is very... [47:53] >> It’s creative, it’s staged. But is [47:56] it staged? Not really, there are some [47:59] that are staged, but some are real. [48:01] Short videos create many new [48:03] journalistic ethics issues. In my view, [48:06] staging is, to some extent, a violation [48:09] of journalistic ethics, but what I [48:11] mentioned earlier were all real. [48:13] >> Watching them alone in bed at night [48:15] while scrolling, that kind of feeling [48:16] is just satisfying, there's a sense of [48:18] satisfaction. [48:19] >> Then you drowning in the water wasn't [48:21] staged, was it? You were just talking [48:24] about life's troubles, life's anxieties [48:27] , and life's hopes. Now, whenever I [48:30] recall the photos and videos of me [48:32] being rescued, I don't have those [48:34] worries anymore. [48:35] >> But people tend to forget the pain once [48:37] the wound heals. After that experience [48:39] really passed, I started to use it as a [48:41] talking point. [48:42] >> Do you think this is a good experience? [48:44] How many times have you had an [48:46] experience like this? [48:47] >> I can't say it's good, I think it's bad [48:51] . It’s a huge risk; you might not [48:53] have come back just minutes later. [48:56] >> I think I’ve overrated suffering. I [48:59] would rather have never suffered and [49:02] lived an uneventful, ordinary life. [49:05] >> But your mental and physical states [49:07] seem quite good. [49:08] >> If you didn't say it, I wouldn't have [49:10] guessed; I have depression. [49:11] >> I actually don't really want to talk. [49:14] >> Oh, so you want absolute freedom. [49:17] Freedom. But I still came here against [49:20] my will and told you this story, which [49:23] I’ve never told before. Are you [49:25] depressed yourself? Do you have [49:27] depression? [49:28] >> I haven't been tested, but I think for [49:31] someone like me who is so deep, [49:33] extremely delicate, and extremely [49:36] sensitive, I must have some issues. But [49:39] I don't want to go and take such a test [49:41] , right. Why would you want to know so [49:43] much? Because I can; my life hasn't [49:45] been affected at all. I have normal [49:47] perception, and everything is fine. [49:49] Sometimes, there is no trouble in the [49:51] world, we just create it for ourselves. [49:53] If I really knew, and people started [49:55] labeling me, should I take medicine or [49:57] not? Why bother? I haven't missed out [50:00] on anything so far. Why do I need to [50:02] know so much? [50:02] >> Hey, you have a certain degree of [50:04] wisdom there. [50:05] >> Only a certain degree. Hey, but add a [50:08] disclaimer as a subtitle: if you're [50:09] really sick, you must seek medical help [50:11] . Right, it just means that if I have [50:13] it, it's just what any normal city [50:15] dweller might have, not something a [50:16] person with wisdom would have. [50:18] >> Adding that observation shows more [50:20] wisdom, the wisdom of a host; I’d say [50:23] your wisdom has reached the level of [50:25] Zhuangzi. [50:27] >> Everyone, so if you ask me whether to [50:30] meditate, do yoga, or use something [50:32] else to solve my psychological problems [50:35] , I’ll tell you—and this might [50:37] sound a bit arrogant—that I am [50:39] seeking wisdom. And I feel that such [50:42] wisdom is often found within the [50:44] ancient sages and virtuous predecessors [50:46] . Actually, let me be honest with [50:48] everyone. We’ve discussed many quick [50:51] ways to consume information today, but [50:53] looking at our society, 90%of the "soul [50:56] chicken soup" out there really follows [50:58] two paths. One path is that you find [51:01] inspiration from it, and this "soup" is [51:04] nutritious, but in the history of my [51:07] own reading, I feel there is a [51:09] fundamental approach—for instance, [51:11] why should we read the classics? [51:14] Actually, if you read Buddhist classics [51:17] or the works of Laozi and Zhuangzi, and [51:20] you grasp them, you’ll find that 90% [51:22] of the inspirational content online [51:25] today is just part of that same system. [51:27] >> Mm. [51:29] >> It’s not particularly original; [51:31] it’s not some kind of modern wisdom. [51:33] But whether you prefer to learn from [51:35] the source or the offshoots, that’s a [51:37] personal choice. Regarding my own issue [51:40] , where I felt that my greed for [51:42] knowledge was crowding my life and [51:45] making me feel overwhelmed, I found [51:47] inspiration in a quote from Zhuangzi. [51:50] Hey, what you said corroborates [51:52] Zhuangzi. Zhuangzi said something so [51:55] famous: "My life has a limit." [51:57] >> Mm. [51:59] >> Our time is limited. " [52:01] >> While knowledge has no limit"—the [52:03] things unknown to us in this universe [52:05] are boundless. If you try to use your [52:07] limited time to pursue the boundless, [52:09] you’re "doomed"—like the English [52:11] word "dead," or the "dai" in " [52:13] undefeated in a hundred battles"— [52:14] it’s finished, it’s impossible. [52:17] This quote perfectly captures the [52:19] feeling I was describing to you all [52:21] today. I feel I can’t know everything [52:25] because my life is too limited, so what [52:28] should I do? Zhuangzi has a saying for [52:33] this: "Stop at what you do not know." [52:37] Don’t be anxious, don’t always feel [52:39] you haven’t seen enough, and you can [52:41] be at peace. You can’t know [52:43] everything, so just stop at what you [52:45] don’t know. That is, just rest easy [52:48] and settle right there. I know what I [52:51] know, and that’s that; I’m natural, [52:53] and I won’t pretend to know what I [52:55] don’t. Hey, look, no wonder your exam [52:57] grades were never good since you were a [52:59] child. This [53:01] >> At critical moments, it’s fine as [53:02] long as you perform at critical moments [53:04] . [53:04] >> I really am good at critical moments. [53:06] I’ve always been lazy, ranking around [53:09] 30th in class. Why did I get into Wuhan [53:11] University, a national key university? [53:14] >> It was just before the college entrance [53:16] exam. I focused on cramming for a month [53:19] . You know, I jumped into the top ten. [53:22] And we were a top-tier high school, so [53:24] top ten was enough. See, I’m just [53:26] about right. Not too much, don’t be [53:29] greedy. If the cutoff score is 500, I [53:31] score exactly 500. [53:32] >> I totally agree. I think scoring even [53:35] one extra point is useless. [53:36] >> Scoring even one point more is just [53:38] being a rogue. [53:39] >> Scoring one more point is just...it’s [53:41] all excessive. [53:42] >> That really taught me. [53:44] >> So everything has to be just right, [53:46] just like the end of our conversation [53:48] right now—just right. Thank you. [53:51] >> Let’s congratulate Teacher Xu. [53:53] Congratulations, congratulations. This [53:55] is what they call not being constrained [53:58] . [53:58] >> Have you ever bought a lottery ticket? [54:00] >> Hey, look at you, talking about money, [54:02] this phone call is all practical. [54:04] >> Does the company pay for you? [54:06] >> And it costs very little money. [54:08] >> You don't need to buy things like [54:09] accident insurance or travel insurance. [54:10] >> Look, is this conversation directed at [54:12] you? [54:13] >> Wentao usually talks about having [54:14] integrity. But when he starts fawning, [54:16] he’s no worse than anyone else. [54:18] >> Do you remember the plaque I gave the [54:20] boss? [54:20] >> What plaque? " [54:22] >> Everlasting Joy." I bought it at an [54:25] antique market for 3,000 yuan. [54:27] >> It was inscribed by a scholar from the [54:29] late Qing and early Republic era. [54:31] >> A scholar from Hebei. [54:33] >> And what’s strange is that this Hebei [54:34] scholar’s surname was Dou. [54:36] >> Yes, yes, yes. [54:37] >> I forgot his full name. It was a plaque [54:40] with two large characters, "Everlasting [54:42] Joy," right? Below it was a passage, [54:44] essentially saying, "I wish you a life [54:47] of no shame before heaven or earth." [54:49] This is just too much. Oh my, I feel [54:51] like this plaque...So you just bought [54:53] it and gave it to him? [54:54] >> I just bought it and gave it to him. [54:55] >> Wentao often does things like this. [54:57] >> And then, for his birthday once, do you [54:58] remember what I gave him? [54:59] >> You? You teachers give gifts? We’ve [55:02] never given him gifts. [55:04] >> He wrote a card that said, "Meeting [55:06] during turbulent times, thanks to [55:08] Phoenix for your cultivation; I will [55:10] never forget it." [55:11] >> Ah, I can’t take it. [55:13] >> But he... [55:14] >> But you can't deny I'm sincere. Even if [55:17] it's too direct, it doesn't matter. [55:19] Right, but sometimes he is very sincere [55:22] . Once, in the dressing room, he said, [55:25] "I just came out of the restroom, saw [55:27] the boss in the hallway, and I silently [55:30] put my hands together and prayed toward [55:33] his back." [55:35] >> Are you my god? [55:39] >> Well, I actually think this is exactly [55:41] the quality lacking in today's society; [55:43] there are fewer and fewer people who [55:46] know how to be grateful. You're talking [55:48] about never forgetting where your meals [55:50] come from. You should remember your [55:52] origins and who helped you. Why is [55:54] there no creativity now? People copy [55:57] everything and then pass it off as [55:59] their own original work. [56:00] >> It has to do with ability, and it has [56:02] to do with opportunity; you can't miss [56:04] a single link. [56:05] >> Hebei Dalton, Dalton. [56:08] >> Hebei fighters, I remember, I remember [56:09] at the time we teased him quite a bit, [56:11] you know, we teased him quite a bit. He [56:13] bought the finished product. Oh, it’s [56:15] such a coincidence! We mocked him [56:17] because he was too direct, and others [56:19] didn't even realize he was flattering [56:21] them. [56:21] >> Because he was so sycophantic, it [56:23] seemed exceptionally sincere, you know. [56:25] >> That's just who he is, don't you think? [56:27] He might have... [56:29] >> When you come across that, you’d feel [56:30] bad if you didn't buy it. [56:31] >> You’d feel bad if you didn't buy it. [56:33] >> It really might be your ancestors; [56:34] after all, it's Hebei fighters, we are [56:36] just fighters. [56:36] >> Some people just don't remember. Ah. [56:39] >> What a coincidence. [56:41] >> Wentao has an appearance that makes him [56:43] look like a clever and slick Southerner [56:46] . [56:46] >> But deep down, there is a stubbornness [56:48] of a Northerner. [56:49] >> Yes, yes, yes, I'm actually quite silly [56:51] . [56:51] >> Stubborn, not stupid, "stubborn" [56:53] doesn't mean stupid. [56:54] >> He is a Southerner, not just looking [56:56] like one. [56:57] >> Oh, hm. [56:58] >> What did you say? What did you say? [57:01] >> Speaking of Wentao's story. [57:03] >> Oh, I’ve forgotten, I’ve forgotten [57:05] a bit. It’s based on Wentao’s [57:07] terrible, non-existent English, he even [57:09] asked me, "Why does Han always call me [57:11] 'Han'?" I said, "Han what?""Honey," you [57:14] know. [57:15] >> Oh, right. I said, "Why would he call [57:18] you 'Han'?" It sounded like a [57:19] lumberjack to me. [57:21] >> He told me "Han." My, my, I’m [57:23] sensitive to language, so I said, "Is [57:25] it 'Honey'?" He said, "Yes, yes, yes, [57:27] Honey." So it turned out to be "Honey," [57:29] but this Chinese character, wouldn't [57:31] you say?