Gaethje Rejects Topuria Rematch, Demands UFC Corporate Equity After Title Win

盖奇夺冠后拒绝托普利亚二番战，要求获得UFC公司股权 UFC轻量级冠军Justin Gaethje在第四回合终结获胜后，排除了与Ilia Topuria进行二番战的可能性，并主张赛事方必须向其授予公司股权，以确保可持续的被动收入。 对话围绕Justin Gaethje历史性的夺冠胜利及其在教练Trevor Wittman指导下不断演进的战术展开，探讨了他如何从纯粹的狂暴风格转型为更具战略性的“定点打击”。众人深入分析了近期多场比赛，探讨了Gaethje的心态把控、重伤应对以及赛前预期管理。此外，讨论还拆解了其他UFC焦点对决，批评了现代极端减重的危害，并探讨了Wittman通过创新拳套设计推动格斗运动技术革新的持续努力。 Joe Rogan 盛赞 Justin Gaethje 在华盛顿特区白宫前克服 1 赔 6 的劣势赔率夺得 UFC 冠军，称这是格斗运动史上最史诗级的成就之一。 (0:01) Gaethje 透露自己在比赛中刻意不抱任何预设期望，这种现实主义心态往往能让预期落空的对手在陷入苦战时心理崩溃。 (6:59) Gaethje 表示此前在对决 Max Holloway 最后一秒遭遇的压哨 KO 反而成为了他的心理铠甲，彻底消除了他在后续恶战中的恐惧感。 (10:44) 许多现役选手由于无法接受彻底修复严重鼻骨骨折所需的长达一年的零身体接触康复期，往往只能长期忍受呼吸障碍继续参赛。 (20:12) 在接连输给 Eddie Alvarez 和 Dustin Poirier 之后，教练 Trevor Wittman 将 Gaethje 改造为短促爆发式进攻的“定点拳手”（spot fighter），促成了他职业生涯的重大转折。 (34:26)

Following a historic championship victory as a 6-to-1 underdog, Justin Gaethje and head coach Trevor Wittman break down the tactical execution, extreme physical resilience, and career philosophy that culminated in the title win. They also address systemic fight-game issues, including weight cutting dangers, officiating flaws, and obsolete glove designs. Tactical Execution and Exploiting Opponent Errors (57:02) Gaethje entered his title bout facing an elite boxer regarded as the number two pound-for-pound fighter in the world. Wittman's strategy relied on subtle leftward movement that forced the front-heavy opponent to constantly reset before launching attacks, rather than trading linearly. Offensively, Gaethje adjusted his footwork by placing his lead left foot outside his opponent's rear foot to set up an outside jab followed by a looping right hand over a tight shoulder tuck, effectively bypassing counter-threats. Surviving Punishment and In-Fight Attrition (10:44) The bout turned decisively in the second round after Gaethje absorbed multiple clean body shots. When dropped by a heavy liver strike, Gaethje capitalized on the opponent's tactical misjudgment of following him to the mat. Rather than methodically working on the ground, the opponent unleashed a two-minute, full-power flurry that completely emptied his energy reserves in pursuit of a finish. Gaethje's established comfort with enduring heavy punishment allowed him to survive until the third round, where the opponent was exhausted and subsequently sustained major facial injuries, including two fractured orbitals and a broken nose. Mindset Shifts, Rebuilding After Knockouts, and Legacy (65:22) Gaethje credits his devastating knockout loss to Max Holloway as the catalyst for his resurgence, emphasizing that his subconscious lack of ego and a vow never to put his parents through that trauma again re-ignited his discipline. In contrast to opponents who rely on neuro-stimulation and cutting-edge sports science, Gaethje approaches preparation through fundamental wrestling accountability and grit. At this stage of his career—boasting nine performance bonuses in his first seven UFC bouts and holding three belts—Gaethje is considering future matchups while demanding structural compensation, including potential corporate equity from the UFC rather than simple bout-to-bout contract negotiations. Physiological Risks of Dehydration and Extreme Cutting (43:38) The discussion highlights the severe physiological threats posed by weight cutting and harsh environments. Recounting fights in high-humidity outdoor venues like Abu Dhabi, Gaethje noted losing 15 pounds of fluid in conditions that left him visibly trembling. The group linked severe pre-fight dehydration to catastrophic brain trauma, citing observations that late-round boxing deaths typically stem from dehydrated brains cracking under trauma like dry lips, rather than single early blows. Wittman noted that extreme dehydration compromises punch resistance to the point where fighters can be dropped by simple jabs. Officiating Protocol and Combat Equipment Reform (97:20) Gaethje and Wittman voiced sharp frustration with MMA officiating and equipment standards. Gaethje criticized referees who allow follow-up strikes after blatant fouls or fail to enforce mandatory recovery periods, citing an incident where referee Mike Beltran pushed him to continue fighting immediately after an eye poke. Wittman also demonstrated his patented curved glove design, created to eliminate eye pokes and prevent hand fractures by forcing a relaxed hand into a natural fist, criticizing the UFC for spending heavily on outside corporate designs that make closing the hand exhausting. Gaethje plans to take the remainder of 2026 off to heal chronic injuries, including a severe bone edema in his fibula, before deciding whether to defend his title against clear lightweight contenders like Arman Tsarukyan or retire at the peak of his career.

在《The Joe Rogan Experience MMA Show》第181期中，新晋冠军Justin Gaethje与主教练Trevor Wittman复盘了其在1赔6不利赔率下逆袭夺冠的技战术执行，阐述了经历重大击倒挫败后的心理重建，并深入探讨了极端减重对脑部的致命损伤风险以及格斗手套人体工学革新的迫切性。 白宫对决与克制强攻的战术设计 (57:02) Gaethje与Wittman详细解析了在白宫场地迎战高排位拳击型选手（Ilia Topuria）的破局策略。针对对手重心靠前、启动爆发力极强的压迫式风格，团队制定了反直觉的移动方案：通过大幅度头部晃动与身体前倾造成向右移动的假象，实则全程持续向左侧微调步法，迫使对手在发起冲刺前必须频繁停步重新校准重心。在防守端，Gaethje在吸收了四至五记重击（包含一记沉重的左勾拳破肝）倒地后，对手急于终结而盲目转入地面战，反而在长达两分钟的全力输出中耗尽了体能储备，重蹈类似Shane Carwin式的体能崩盘。 在站立反击细节上，Gaethje将前脚（左脚）完全踩在对手后脚外侧，既规避了潜在的右手迎击风险，又绕过了对手紧密护肩的防守姿态；随后以“刺拳、停顿、右手重拳”的节奏打出致命打击，彻底逆转局势。教练团队特别指出，资深裁判Mark Goddard在第二回合关键危急关头未盲目叫停，为抗击打经验丰富的选手通过地面防守过渡赢得了宝贵契机。 败局反思与创伤后的无我心态 (65:22) 对话深度回顾了此前被Max Holloway压哨KO的经历，Gaethje视其为重燃争胜饥渴感的关键催化剂。当时他因对手体格较小而产生心理松懈，缺乏生死战的戒备感，导致防线被精准转身后摆腿打破。Gaethje坦承赛后遭遇了近一小时的记忆断层，在救护车中处于典型的脑震荡认知循环，每隔几十秒便重复询问比赛结果；在得知自己被最后一秒KO后，他反复真诚表示“那真替他高兴”（good for him）。Wittman与Rogan认为，这种在意识模糊下毫无嫉妒、为对手喝彩的潜意识反应展现了纯粹的武德。 这种心理建设延伸至其整个职业生涯的调整。Gaethje反思了对阵Charles Oliveira时因急于证明自己及更衣室闹剧导致战术变形的教训，以及连胜后容易陷入的自满。他指出顶尖较量中爬起来的意志远比单纯的技巧更具感染力；正如当年击破Tony Ferguson的不败神话一样，打破高调新星不可战胜的心理光环，能从根本上重塑未来对手的博弈预期。 极端减重危害与脑组织脱水机制 (73:10) 针对格斗界盲目追求体格优势的降重风气，Gaethje与Wittman结合医学专家Dr. D的研究提出了严厉警告。统计表明近十至十五年间拳击赛场的致死案例绝大多数发生在第九回合之后，受害者往往并非死于单记爆头重击，而是在体能枯竭后软瘫倒地。其致病机制在于赛前极端的脱水操作：频繁脱水使身体习惯性排液，导致保护大脑的脑脊液严重流失；正如干燥起皮的嘴唇极易开裂，严重脱水的脑组织在承受反复冲击时缓冲能力急剧衰减，极易造成隐性创伤。 Gaethje披露了个人体液波动的严苛经历，透露其在近次赛前药检中曾因过度补水导致尿样过稀而被勒令重测三次。尽管极端减重过程痛苦，Gaethje仍明确反对盲目增设量级，认为那会导致竞争水准如拳击般被稀释，成熟运动员应自行承担体重控制责任。Wittman则提醒，自然体格偏小的选手若升重往往难以维持绝对速度，而盲目重返低量级带来的严重脱水，甚至会让选手被普通刺拳轻易击倒。 装备缺陷剖析与人体工学手套革新 (120:14) 手部伤病与戳眼违规被视为现代综合格斗的制度性隐患。Wittman现场展示了其独立研发的专利弯曲手套设计。现行UFC官方手套结构平直僵硬，格斗者手掌在自然放松时会被硬性拉伸至伸直张开状态，极易在下意识防卫反应中戳入对手眼部；同时，强行握拳需要前臂肌肉持续做功，使得选手尚未开战小臂肌肉便已处于紧绷疲劳状态。 针对Rogan提出的指尖全包裹连指手套构想，Gaethje从缠斗实战出发表示反对，强调指尖的直接触觉是感知对手重心移动和施展绞杀的关键感知器官。Wittman的设计采用顺应人手自然握拳弧度的剪裁，配合交叉锁定腕带与指关节侧向加厚垫，选手在不缠手带的情况下也能全力击打沙袋而不发生骨折。Rogan与Wittman批评赛事管理层此前耗费重金聘请橄榄球领域的外部公司设计新手套，因脱离格斗实际仅试用三月便告失败，呼吁尽快采纳以运动员生理安全为核心的专业装备。 职业权益索求与个人追责哲学 (86:52) 在规划职业生涯终局时，Gaethje强调自己已建立特殊历史遗产，未来应获得与卓越贡献相匹配的长期回报。作为在17场UFC比赛中领衔约12场头条主赛、前7场斩获9次花红的功勋选手，他提出希望超越单一比赛合同，获得赛事相关商业实体的公司股权以构建被动收入，但也坦白自己从未主动开口索取。谈及下一轮竞争，尽管潜在对手Arman Tsarukyan因押注Gaethje获胜斩获约570万美元并提出赠送改装皮卡，Gaethje因未曾握手立约而坚决拒收。 Gaethje将这种严苛的道德自律归因于家庭教养与长期摔跤训练。摔跤没有团队掩护借口，迫使运动员直面技不如人的现实并建立绝对的个人追责习惯。这种清醒认知使他免于社交媒体网络言论的精神内耗，并促使其决定在2026年剩余时间内暂停比赛以彻底治愈严重的腓骨骨髓水肿伤势，在职业末期牢牢掌握生活节奏与身体机能的主动权。 本场对话揭示了顶级格斗家的技战术思维与心智韧性：通过精密战术克制与克服重创的坚韧精神能够打破不败神话，但MMA行业在极端减重监管、裁判临场执裁规范以及防护手套的人体工学标准上仍显滞后。至于Gaethje能否在完成身体修复后达成兼具商业股权与荣誉顶峰的理想谢幕，仍是有待赛事方与选手博弈的未决议题。

## Background 本期节目由频道 PowerfulJRE 于 2026 年 6 月 20 日在 YouTube 平台发布。根据页面简介，主持人乔·罗根（Joe Rogan）邀请到了新任 UFC 轻量级冠军贾斯汀·盖奇（Justin Gaethje）以及知名拳击与综合格斗功勋教练特雷弗·威特曼（Trevor Wittman）共同做客录音室。 ## TL;DR 节目围绕盖奇以 1 赔 6 的悬殊赔率逆袭终结伊利亚·托普里亚（Ilia Topuria）夺得轻量级冠军金腰带的史诗之夜展开，深入复盘了第二回合承受爆肝重创后的心智博弈、步法限制战术以及对手体能透支的关键转折。威特曼与盖奇详细分享了十九年摔跤沉淀、师徒间毫无保留的信任哲学，并反思了此前惨败给霍洛威（Max Holloway）与奥利维拉（Charles Oliveira）带来的心理觉醒与战术蜕变。三人还深入探讨了极端减重的致命脑损伤风险、威特曼研发的 ONX 专利格斗手套与装备安全革新，并在尾声畅聊了白宫之战的历史定格、荒野远距离狩猎趣闻与未来的卫冕规划。 ## Atmosphere & style 整场对谈洋溢着大胜之后的酣畅淋漓与由衷赞叹，罗根难掩狂喜与敬佩，威特曼与盖奇则在硬汉豪情中透出极其罕见的通透与清醒。对话既有复盘擂台绞杀与濒死剧痛时的冷峻硬核，又穿插着高尔夫醉酒恶作剧、千码狙击脱靶等爆笑轶事，师徒间情同父子的默契互动让整期节目既有顶级格斗哲学的厚重深度，又充满老友围炉畅谈的真实温度。 ## Bulletin - [00:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=1s) 贾斯汀·盖奇在白宫露天特别战中顶着 1 赔 6 的悬殊赔率终结伊利亚·托普里亚加冕 UFC 轻量级冠军，并宣布因严重的腓骨末端骨髓水肿将在年内彻底休战恢复。 - [11:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=692s) 战术复盘显示，托普里亚在第二回合击倒盖奇后长达两分钟的全功率地面冲刺导致体能彻底透支，而盖奇凭借持续向左环绕滑步与切角外侧刺拳精准瓦解了对手的前重心压迫。 - [01:57:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=7066s) 针对 MMA 长期存在的插眼争议与手部骨折问题，主教练特雷弗·威特曼正与 UFC 首席商务官 Hunter Campbell 就引进其符合生理自然半握拳弧度的 ONX 专利手套重启商业谈判。 - [01:26:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=5206s) 盖奇明确表达商业诉求，认为凭借 12 次领衔头条主赛、屡次挽救关键历史节点的成就，UFC 应赋予其附属商业实体的股权分红以建立长期被动收入，而非仅停留在单场合同重谈。 ## Key takeaways - [00:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=1s) 面对开出 6:1 悬殊赔率且赛前在各大 P4P 榜单高居前二的托普里亚，盖奇在宏大场面下顶住逆境实现震撼终结，完成职业生涯传奇加冕。 - [02:41](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=161s) 教练威特曼提出“薄荷巧克力冰淇淋”心态隐喻：习惯于速胜的顺风拳手一旦遭遇局面未按既定剧本发展的残酷逆境，极易陷入心理崩盘与迷茫。 - [11:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=692s) 第二回合托普里亚误判终结良机，在盖奇中拳倒地后倾泻全部火力进行两分钟地面绞杀冲刺，导致体能彻底枯竭并彻底丧失后续战局主动权。 - [21:42](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=1302s) 盖奇深层反思 UFC 300 败绩：因缺乏对升重选手霍洛威的危险敬畏感导致赛场专注力游离，但救护车短时失忆中由衷为对手喝彩的心态展现了其脱离虚荣自负的纯粹人格。 - [37:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=2255s) 盖奇澄清“硬抗伤害”的刻板印象，其防守核心在于凭借本能微调头颈角度顺势卸力；同时 UFC 身体测试证实其拥有全联盟最顶尖的骨骼密度。 - [57:24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=3444s) 步法切角成为破局核心：维特曼制定了将前脚踩在托普里亚后脚外侧切线、严禁向左后直线后撤的战术，通过外侧刺拳推击后肩硬生生剥离对手的冲刺重击支点。 - [01:12:19](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=4339s) 威特曼与罗根反思极端减重对大脑健康的毁灭性隐患：赛前极度脱水导致脑部保护性缓冲液流失，极易诱发比赛后半程的脑出血与致命伤残。 - [01:18:34](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=4714s) 盖奇展现出罕见的“反向心理机制”：不仅不回避网络恶评，反而将其视作点燃斗志的燃料，同时保持对教练指导与自身短板极度诚实的客观反思。 - [01:20:54](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=4854s) 在训练营期间实行严密的内容反侦察封锁，盖奇完全隐藏了手靶与对练实战细节，彻底击碎了对手依赖公开视频建立的虚假预判。 - [01:31:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=5512s) 复盘西里尔·加恩与佩雷拉的重量级对决，指出佩雷拉盲目升重至 251 磅破坏了原有敏捷性与速度优势，而加恩凭借篮球底子练就的轻盈步法与刺拳掌控了对局。 - [01:37:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=5840s) 盖奇严厉批判裁判贝尔特兰在其遭钱德勒恶意插眼后的重大执法失误，强调裁判首要责任是保障生命安全，而非催促视力受损的拳手仓促重启比赛。 - [01:47:19](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=6439s) 盖奇自去年圣诞节起便饱受腓骨末端严重骨髓水肿困扰，赛前依靠可的松针剂强行登台，因伤病严重明确决定年内全面休战养伤。 - [01:51:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=6669s) 摔跤运动被视为格斗心理的终极基石，其残酷性彻底剥夺了将失败推诿给队友或教练的借口，锤炼出对个人表现负 100% 绝对责任的精神特质。 - [01:59:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=7190s) 现役 UFC 手套因强制拉直手掌导致手指必须持续发力握拳，引发小臂提前力竭与严重指缝挤压痛；而连指设计又会剥夺缠斗选手至关重要的直觉触感。 - [02:05:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=7500s) 威特曼研发的 ONX 专利手套顺应手部解剖结构预设微曲握拳弧度，配合侧向内置绑带系统，在保护掌指骨关节、取消缠手带变量的同时从源头削减插眼冲动。 ## Detailed walkthrough ### [00:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=1s) 击败托普里亚夺冠与难以置信的赔率 节目一开始，乔·罗根（Joe Rogan）难掩内心的激动，向新任轻量级冠军贾斯汀·盖奇（Justin Gaethje）以及功勋教练特雷弗·威特曼（Trevor Wittman）致以热烈祝贺。罗根直言，这场胜利堪称格斗运动史上最史诗级的成就之一，甚至用“史诗级”来形容都显得保守。彼时盖奇面对的对手伊利亚·托普里亚（Ilia Topuria），在各大榜单中与伊斯兰姆·马哈切夫（Islam Makhachev）并列为磅分榜（P4P）前两名。赛前部分博彩盘口甚至给出了高达 6 比 1 的夸张赔率，在罗根看来，这种赔率对盖奇简直是极大的不尊重——托普里亚固然顶尖，但盖奇同样实力卓绝。最终，盖奇在现场观众以及诸多名流注视下以震撼全场的方式终结比赛，拿下冠军金腰带，罗根赞叹这是他人生中见证过最不可思议的格斗之夜之一。 - 赛前舆论将托普里亚视作 P4P 榜单前两名的顶级统治者，与轻量级王者马哈切夫齐名。 - 部分博彩机构开出 6:1 的悬殊赔率看衰盖奇，罗根对此公开表达强烈不平。 --- ### [01:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=67s) 十九年摔跤与格斗生涯的漫长沉淀 谈到加冕冠军后的心境，盖奇坦言一切依然有些不真实。原本他以为自己会如释重负，毕竟过去无数个日夜他都在苦苦追逐这顶桂冠，总觉得夺冠后第二天醒来内心的重压会自然消散，但现实中那种强烈的释怀感并没有立即降临。直到两天前父亲随口问他：“早上醒来发现自己成了世界冠军，感觉如何？”当时盖奇愣住了，甚至还没顾得上细想；直到十几分钟后上厕所时，他一个人坐在马桶上突然顿悟：“操，我真的是冠军了。”回忆起十九年前父亲开车把他送到科罗拉多去练摔跤，当时他在异乡举目无亲、谁都不认识。一路走来，他拼尽全力，犯过错、走过弯路，但每一次都能及时纠偏并重回正轨。盖奇感慨，如果没有身边的教练、导师与整个团队始终如一的扶持与信任，自己绝不可能在顶尖行列坚持这么久并最终登顶。 - 盖奇从 19 年前被父亲送到科罗拉多州练习摔跤起步，开启了漫长严苛的格斗生涯。 - 夺冠后的心理冲击呈现渐进式渗透，直到独处时才真正意识到自己登上了世界之巅。 --- ### [02:41](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=161s) 威特曼与盖奇的师徒默契与“薄荷巧克力冰淇淋”隐喻 罗根特别称赞了盖奇与主教练特雷弗·威特曼之间极具传奇色彩的合作关系，并盛赞了两人的 YouTube 系列纪录片《暴力的艺术》（*The Art of Violence*）。威特曼在训练营中对盖奇的状态了如指掌，极其精准地掌握何时该拉紧缰绳降温、何时该踩油门施压。威特曼解释道，许多教练把拳手当朋友，虽然盖奇是他最好的朋友之一，但他更把自己摆在一个“严父”的位置上。他必须直言不讳地指出血淋淋的真相，哪怕这种真话会刺痛拳手，因为这是对拳手职业生涯负责，而非贪图眼前的舒服。威特曼回顾道，盖奇早期的目标是成为八角笼里“最暴力、最令人难忘”的拳手，要让每位买票入场的观众都深深记住盖奇的名字；但后来目标转向了冠军金腰带。在历经两次冠军战失利后，很多人断言盖奇再无机会，然而生活就是不断跌倒爬起。任何宏伟的计划在现实中往往都会遭遇变故，唯有心中的愿景和一步一个脚印的调整才能登顶。 谈及心智层面的较量，威特曼打了一个形象的“薄荷巧克力冰淇淋”比喻来剖析托普里亚的心态： ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 目标心态与突发变故的应对逻辑 accDescr: 对比目标明确与面对突发逆境时两种不同心智模式的表现 subgraph DirectTarget["坚定目标驱动（托普里亚的前期状态）"] A["明确目标（如直奔薄荷巧克力冰淇淋）"] --> B["毫不犹豫迅速达成目标"] B --> C["自信爆棚／势如破竹"] end subgraph AdverseShock["遭遇意外与计划落空"] C -. "遭遇恶战逆境".-> D["拿到变质发臭的冰淇淋（战局未按剧本发展）"] D --> E["心态动摇与不知所措"] end subgraph GaethjeMindset["盖奇的无预设心智"] F["不设僵化预期"] --> G["逐回合随机应变并专注当下"] G --> H["绝对信任教练团队的实时把控"] end ``` 威特曼指出，托普里亚就像一个走进冰淇淋专区毫不犹豫抓起“薄荷巧克力味”就结账的人，凭借极度笃定的自信在过去三场比赛中予取予求；但这种“心想事成”法则的致命弱点在于，一旦现实塞给你一盒变质发臭的冰淇淋——比赛没有在预期中迅速解决，局面陷入泥潭时，就会瞬间陷入“这他妈到底怎么回事”的迷茫。威特曼强调，自己与盖奇的关系建立在毫无保留的信任之上，能在杂音纷扰时让他专注拉回重心，而盖奇强大的心理素养也反过来不断启发并提升着威特曼自己。 --- ### [06:59](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=419s) 拒绝僵化预期：残酷真相与心理博弈 罗根提到盖奇在赛前曾谈及“预期”问题，盖奇明确表示自己从不带着具体的预设去比赛，这样在场上就绝不会被打乱阵脚。盖奇深入剖析了自己的心理机制：他的底气与预期全部来源于日复一日的高强度苦练，身体的机能早已准备就绪；他坦承自己性格中带着某种偏向自恋的特质，极其享受在万千观众注目的宏大舞台上表演与展现自我，骨子里极度争强好胜且对竞技细节非常较真。然而，他永远不会自欺欺人。从四岁练摔跤至今，从未有任何教练需要单独拉他谈心去调整心理状态，比赛对他而言是极其纯粹而自然的竞争游戏。 在赛前交流中，盖奇曾当面对托普里亚说了许多直白刺耳的大实话。盖奇认为，向托普里亚这种心高气傲的人直陈严酷事实反而是种绝佳的心理武器，因为托普里亚由于急于自证正确，反而会被激得离真实越来越远。盖奇赛前曾公开告诫托普里亚：“把一切想得太完美是个致命错误，如果比赛拖入第二回合、第三回合，当战局完全脱离你的预测和设想时，你该何去何从？”结果托普里亚一心只想证明盖奇是错的、自己是对的，拒绝接纳任何外界声音。而盖奇强调，自己之所以能走到今天，核心在于始终保持“极高的可教性”（coachable），乐于倾听与反思。过往经历的每一个人、每一处境遇和每一桩磨砺，都深刻塑造了他的身心，使他能够在周日决战之夜从容调动全部阅历去从容应对一切恶战。 ### [09:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=585s) 战争洗礼与逆境心境：从过往挫折中汲取力量 贾斯汀·盖奇（Justin Gaethje）回顾自己的职业生涯时坦言，过往所有的胜负、挫折与成就，都是无可替代的学习体验。他每天都在努力汲取教训、追求进步。谈及为何能在八角笼中展现出如此震撼的斗志，盖奇认为这早已刻在他的骨子里。所谓“成为史上最刺激的选手”并非某种刻意追求的口号，而是他真实自我的自然流露。从小镇一路走来，家人、朋友、教练与师长无条件的支持，让他倍感眷顾，能够最终站上顶峰，连他自己都觉得不可思议。 乔·罗根（Joe Rogan）随即指出，盖奇在这场大战中占据的一个巨大决定性因素，就是他经历过太多次惨烈的“战争”。反观伊利亚·托普里亚（Ilia Topuria），职业生涯中充其量只在对阵贾伊·赫伯特（Jai Herbert）时遭遇过险情，优素福·扎拉尔（Youssef Zalal）也曾给他制造过一些麻烦，但从未经历过真正摧毁性的苦战。盖奇早已习惯在血肉模糊的拉锯肉搏中承受痛苦，只要肉身不灭就绝不崩溃；而托普里亚此前从未体验过这种深渊般的绝境。 ### [11:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=692s) 第二回合的爆肝重击与地面致命抉择 当第二回合盖奇被击倒在地却没有崩溃时，场上的天平发生了剧烈倾斜。盖奇前一天刚和教练特雷弗·维特曼（Trevor Wittman）探讨过，托普里亚重创他的身体反倒成了他赢下比赛的核心原因之一。盖奇倒地的那一记并不是第一拳，而是累积的第四或第五次精准身体打击。托普里亚能敏锐地察觉到盖奇受挫陷入了危险，这一判断让他孤注一掷倾泻了所有火力，试图抓住最后的机会将盖奇终结。 事后复盘来看，托普里亚选择跟进地面进攻看似是一次重大失误，但在当时的情境下却极具逻辑诱惑。托普里亚生涯中的降服胜场远多于KO，加之盖奇此前输给哈比布·努尔马戈梅多夫（Khabib Nurmagomedov）和查尔斯·奥利维拉（Charles Oliveira）后外界对其地面防守的各种非议，托普里亚坚信自己能在地面拿下终结。盖奇分析道，如果当时托普里亚不跟进地面，自己也会立刻站起来抱摔扑向对方的双腿拉入防守，绝不可能原地站立跟他继续拼拳。然而，正是盖奇中拳倒地这一幕，诱使托普里亚如同当年的肖恩·卡尔温（Shane Carwin）一样，把体能槽彻底打空。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: Topuria's Decision and Fight Dynamics accDescr: 托普里亚重击盖奇后体能耗尽并改变战局的因果图 subgraph RoundTwo["第二回合危机与转折"] A["托普里亚连续重击躯干<br/>（第4~5记爆肝拳击倒盖奇）"] --> B["误判终结良机<br/>（以为盖奇地面防守薄弱）"] B --> C["疯狂压制并进入地面<br/>进行长达2分钟的全力冲刺"] C --> D["体能彻底透支<br/>（类比肖恩·卡尔温空槽）"] end subgraph RoundThree["第三回合及之后战局"] D --> E["第三回合节奏突变<br/>托普里亚失去击倒与终结能力"] E --> F["盖奇掌控比赛走向<br/>终结托普里亚不败光环"] end ``` - 盖奇强调自己在第一回合其实打得非常出色，即便计分卡上可能很胶着，但第一回合对托普里亚造成的实质伤害为后续整场比赛奠定了胜局。 - 托普里亚在压迫时双手搭在盖奇锁骨附近寻找击打间隙，击倒盖奇前的那两记铺垫打击，尤其是命中肝脏的左勾拳，击打发出的沉闷巨响令人胆寒。 ### [13:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=790s) 维特曼执教哲学：在疲惫与痛苦中掌控心智 教练特雷弗·维特曼深入剖析了托普里亚的战术失误与盖奇临场决策的卓越。维特曼指出，作为拳手必须时刻清楚这是一场五回合的恶战，托普里亚背负了前两回合必须终结的心理包袱，急于速胜。维特曼执教的核心准则之一，就是“让对手陷入疲惫，逼迫疲惫的对手做出糟糕决策，进而抓住失误给予致命打击”。被命中肝脏的痛苦与头部中拳完全是两个概念——维特曼形容头部挨一拳就像在酒吧里跟哥们碰了一杯烈酒（“像干了一杯shot”），还能接着干；而肝脏受到重击则会让人感觉自己正在濒临死亡。 在承受着濒死剧痛倒地的情况下，盖奇展现了极高水平的冷静与地面防守智商：他时刻保持身体角度而不让自己完全贴平在垫子上，敏锐防范三角绞与十字固的威胁。维特曼强调，格斗这项运动最鼓舞人心、甚至能激励癌症患者去战胜病魔的地方，绝不是那些冰冷的技术细节，而是“被击倒后如何重新站起来”。他执教中最忌讳让拳手以为比赛会很轻松，“永远要做好迎接战争的准备”（"always expect a war"），只有带着这种直面最坏情况的心态，八角笼里才没有任何东西能击垮你。 - 盖奇此前在比赛最后一秒遭遇马克斯·霍洛威（Max Holloway）绝杀KO，这种经历反而让他彻底卸下恐惧包袱：“你还能对我做出比这更糟糕的事吗？” - 维特曼认为拳击技术的根基在于心智，看到拳手被击倒并不令人沮丧，最动人的永远是他们起身继续战斗的瞬间。 ### [16:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=962s) 两分钟全负荷冲刺的代价与不败神话的瓦解 进入第三回合，场上的节奏发生了肉眼可见的剧变。罗根引用了综合格斗名宿切尔·松恩（Chael Sonnen）的名言：“如果你试图通过KO获胜却失败了，那你接下来也不可能通过降服获胜。”托普里亚在第二回合为了终结盖奇，进行了长达两分钟全功率、每一拳都倾注全力的生死冲刺。在格斗训练中，拳手哪怕在重沙袋上全速输出两分钟，局间休息的一分钟也根本不足以恢复体能；常人平时最多只能进行20到40秒的极限冲刺，托普里亚的爆发彻底透支了他的身体机能。 这场失利不仅改写了比赛结果，更彻底改变了托普里亚在整个量级中的威慑力。盖奇类比了自己当年终结托尼·弗格森（Tony Ferguson）连胜的战役：那场比赛并没有打碎弗格森本人的自信，却彻底打破了对手们对弗格森不可战胜的心理恐惧。托普里亚年仅28岁，身为双冠王原本意气风发，自视将成为历史最佳（GOAT），此前从未有人能挺过他的狂轰滥炸。而如今，盖奇向全世界证明只要顶过他的风暴，他同样会被拖垮。正如巅峰时期的迈克·泰森（Mike Tyson）或安德森·席尔瓦（Anderson Silva），以前对手在踏入八角笼前就已经未战先怯；一旦这种不可战胜的光环被撕碎，未来所有不再畏惧他的挑战者都会让他举步维艰。 - 赛后有报道称托普里亚遭遇了双侧眼眶骨折和鼻梁骨折，严重的眼部伤势通常会带来复杂的生理与心理后遗症。 - 尽管骨骼断裂在愈合后往往会变得更加致密坚硬，但重创留下的深层心理阴影将是重夺王座之路上最难克服的关卡。 ### [18:51](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=1131s) 眼眶骨折、碎裂的鼻梁与恶劣的呼吸困境 谈话从面部骨骼损伤的恢复开始切入。Trevor Wittman 谈到眼眶骨受伤后局部骨质是否会变得更硬，并指出这很大程度上取决于断裂的具体位置。他分享了自己的亲身经历：当眼眶骨断裂时，整整六个月内，只要按压脸颊，上方的牙齿甚至会跟着晃动，因为骨折刚好发生在鼻窦腔的位置；他还半开玩笑地提醒对方是否记得当初那一记转身肘击造成的创伤。Joe Rogan 也感慨鼻窦周围确实是极为脆弱的骨骼薄弱区。 话题随即转向了雏量级冠军 Merab Dvalishvili 那张令人震惊的鼻子 X 光片。Joe Rogan 询问他们是否见过那张照片，并形容 Merab 的鼻骨看起来简直像是一根弯曲的脊柱，上面仿佛排布着 33 节脊椎骨一样错位扭曲。画面展示出来时，全场一片惊呼，Joe Rogan 甚至打趣说那看起来像是长期吸食过量可卡因之后被大铁锤迎面砸烂的惨状，整张脸左侧的鼻骨几乎完全塌陷。为了彻底修复这种程度的损伤，选手必须经历长达一整年不能进行任何身体接触的漫长恢复期，因此许多顶尖拳手只能选择硬扛着不修。 Justin Gaethje 坦言自己鼻梁断过三次、动过两次修复手术，并强调比起视力矫正，修复鼻梁对整体生活质量的改善是翻天覆地的。在鼻子完全堵塞的岁月里，连日常理发都是一种折磨——鼻子完全无法进气，只能全程张着嘴，头发茬不断被吸入口中呛进喉咙；吃饭时呼吸节奏错乱，甚至连睡觉都必须依赖通气鼻贴。Gaethje 透露自己在长达十年的时间里每天晚上都戴着鼻贴入睡，以至于鼻梁皮肤因为反复撕扯胶贴而结下一层永久性的血痂。 - Trevor Wittman 曾因眼眶骨折导致按压脸颊时牙齿跟着移动达 6 个月之久。 - Merab Dvalishvili 的鼻骨 X 光片扭曲严重，彻底修复需要整整一年禁止身体对抗。 - Justin Gaethje 职业生涯鼻骨骨折 3 次、手术修复 2 次，赛前长年依赖鼻贴入睡。 --- ### [21:42](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=1302s) UFC 300 对决 Max Holloway：第一回合重创与致命的心态失衡 在谈到鼻部手术的时间节点时，Gaethje 提到他在与 Max Holloway 决战之前刚把鼻子彻底修好，呼吸终于完全畅通。虽然在 UFC 300 的那场大战中鼻子再度被重创，但幸运的是软骨组织并未被破坏，只是上方的骨头发生了骨折，因此无需再次接受大型重建手术。Joe Rogan 回顾那场比赛时指出，外界赛前在对比选手与 Ilia Topuria 或 Rafael Fiziev 的打击水准时，常常忽略了 Holloway 战局的转折点：Gaethje 在第一回合本在积极压迫，但在该回合读秒阶段冷不防吃了一记极其精准的空中转身后摆踢，鼻梁瞬间被踢碎，这记结结实实的迎击彻底改变了整场比赛的基调与走势。 然而，Justin Gaethje 坦率地承认，那一晚输掉比赛的真正根源并非伤痛，而是心理上的严重掉线。他在赛前根本没有做好应有的精神准备，整场比赛的背景与他过往所有的恶战截然不同——Holloway 是从低量级升上来的选手，此前从未在轻量级的竞争假想敌名单中，这场对决甚至带有一种“为了好玩、为了大场面演出”的性质。更关键的是，团队一致劝他接下这场比赛，因为管理层曾承诺无论结果如何，他都将保留接下来的轻量级正赛冠军挑战权。 教练 Trevor Wittman 对此深感内疚与自责。赛后 Gaethje 曾对教练坦白，自己“在心里根本没有给予 Max 足够的敬畏”。Wittman 听到这番话时大为震惊，因为 Holloway 在业内是所有人敬仰的技术大师，但当时 Gaethje 潜意识里只把对手当成身材偏小的羽量级升级选手，缺乏应战时那种本能的警惕与恐惧。Wittman 坦言自己作为主教练未能提前察觉到这个危险信号，并全盘承担责任，将其视为团队成长过程中必须吞下的苦涩学费。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: UFC 300 心态失控传导链 accDescr: 展示跨级对决与冠军承诺如何导致心理敬畏缺失并在赛场引发致命游离 subgraph Prep["赛前心理动因"] A["管理层承诺保留冠军挑战权"] --> B["跨级对阵羽量级选手 Holloway"] B --> C["缺乏对对手的危险敬畏感"] end subgraph Octagon["八角笼内执行脱节"] C --> D["未能触发'战或逃'生死应激本能"] D --> E["注意力游离：耳闻观众杂音、脑生杂念"] E --> F["首回合压哨遭遇转身后摆踢重创"] end subgraph Result["比赛结果"] F --> G["比赛节奏崩塌，最终遭遇读秒KO"] end ``` --- ### [24:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=1453s) 剥离生死危机的游离感与惨痛的赛场教训 Gaethje 深入剖析了那种诡异的临场心理体验。在以往所有的铁血厮杀中，他总是高度依赖直觉与身体本能的条件反射，必须在内心深处找到一种对对手的切实恐惧与警惕，将自己逼入“要么战斗，要么毁灭”的生死应激状态。但在对阵 Holloway 的整场比赛中，他甚至在被彻底 KO 之前，脑子都异常清醒，清醒得不可思议——他能清晰看到体育馆刺眼的灯光，能分神听清看台上观众的喧嚣呐喊，脑海中甚至充斥着各种平日绝对不会出现的连篇杂念。他总结道，缺少了命悬一线的恐惧，人就无法进入那种极致专注的本能战斗模式，那一晚以那种心态出战，自己绝不可能战胜 Holloway。 这并不是 Gaethje 职业生涯中第一次因心态问题吞下败仗。他回溯起对战 Charles Oliveira 的那场轻量级冠军战，当时的心态则是走向了另一个极端：他太渴望拿到那条金腰带了，太想在全场观众面前打出一场惊世骇俗的表现。雪上加霜的是，当晚同门师妹 Rose Namajunas 在与 Carla Esparza 的联合主赛中打出了一场极其沉闷消极、表现如同垃圾般的失利，这导致更衣室内部的气氛由于 Pat Barry 等人的怪异情绪而变得极度压抑混乱。Gaethje 在踏出更衣室准备进场的那一刻，还对着脸色铁青的 Wittman 保证自己绝不会让教练失望，这种强加于身的巨大情绪包袱彻底扭曲了他的战术执行。 纵观整个职业生涯，Gaethje 总结出两次致命的周期性自满：在拿下两三场连胜后，他往往会忽视这项运动内在的极度危险性与充斥其中的偶然运气成分，开始偷懒不做额外的加练，不再老老实实地回房间蒸桑拿排毒。这种自满曾让他在连续输给 Eddie Alvarez 和 Dustin Poirier 时付出惨痛代价；随后虽重振旗鼓打出连胜，却又在夺得临时腰带后再度滋生“我是天下第一、没人能击败我”的傲慢狂妄。尽管如此，Gaethje 坚决表示对自己走过的每一步路都绝不后悔。 - 对决 Max Holloway 期间出现罕见的心智游离：赛场内能分心辨认观众呼喊声与自身杂念。 - 对战 Charles Oliveira 前，受到同门 Rose Namajunas 糟糕战绩及压抑的更衣室氛围波及。 - 自满周期规律：通常在取得 2-3 场连胜后出现松懈，停止额外训练细节，随后遭遇惨败。 - Gaethje 自 1992 年 4 岁时在父亲卧室初次接触 MMA 转播，自此对格斗艺术终生痴迷。 ### [28:05](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=1685s) 从水牛城鸡翅店的狂热粉丝到震撼 UFC 的首秀 贾斯汀·盖奇（Justin Gaethje）回忆起自己与综合格斗结缘的早期岁月。早在 2001 年读初中六七年级时，他就彻底爱上了这项运动，成为一名狂热粉丝。到了大学时期，他和朋友们常常跑去水牛城狂野鸡翅店（Buffalo Wild Wings），霸占着座位一坐就是六七甚至八个小时，却总共只消费五美元，连他自己现在回想起来都觉得“真对不起那些可怜的服务员”。 乔·罗根（Joe Rogan）感叹盖奇多年来竟能一直保持如此凶悍强烈的战斗心态。罗根回忆起盖奇从 WSOF（World Series of Fighting）转战 UFC 时的情景，那场对阵迈克尔·约翰逊（Michael Johnson）的首秀简直疯狂至极。教练特雷弗·维特曼（Trevor Wittman）笑着说，那场比赛看得他乐不可支，尤其是盖奇靠在八角笼边、回头观察寻找出拳角度，格挡对手进攻后立刻回敬凶狠右勾拳的场景。尽管迈克尔·约翰逊挥舞着曾 KO 达斯汀·普瓦里尔（Dustin Poirier）的致命左手拳多次击中盖奇，但两人毫无保留地全力互轰，成就了一场载入史册的对决。赛后盖奇想在八角笼网顶上做标志性的后空翻庆祝，体力透支的他爬上去滑下来两次，连试了三次才成功翻下，维特曼在台下看得又好笑又提心吊胆。 ### [29:47](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=1787s) 笼顶后空翻与“今天就是我变怂的日子吗？” 罗根坦言，每次看到盖奇赛后爬上笼顶做后空翻都替他的膝盖捏一把汗，生怕他刚赢下比赛就伤到关节。维特曼随即分享了一段备战哈比布·努尔马戈梅多夫（Khabib Nurmagomedov）时的趣事：当时两人在丹佛的高海拔格斗馆（High Altitude Martial Arts）训练，盖奇竟然在笼边练习后空翻。维特曼当场叫停：“住手！等打完比赛你爱怎么翻怎么翻！” 面对教练的制止，盖奇当场反问了一句极其硬核的话：“怎么，难道今天就是那一天？今天就是我变成软蛋（bitch）的日子吗？”这句话让维特曼瞬间语塞，只能无奈转过头说：“行吧，你翻吧。”罗根对此深有感触：很多拳手一旦成名或取得成就，就会开始瞻前顾后、保护羽毛，但一旦开始过度自保，原本那种无可替代的特质就会消失殆尽。维特曼感叹盖奇在生活的所有层面都极其疯狂，就连平时一起打高尔夫球，盖奇打出的击球和做出的举动也像他在八角笼里一样，永远充满着令人难以置信的“名场面”（highlight）。 ### [30:42](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=1842s) 边境往事与大学时期的药物探索 谈到这种独特的心理素质是后天培养还是天生具备时，盖奇直言这几乎是与生俱来的。他认为很多人把生活想得太复杂，其实人唯一能掌控的只有自己内心的反应、看待事物的方式以及付出的努力和备战。盖奇坦白，尽管自己走过不少弯路，但从未怀疑过自己注定要成就一番事业。 盖奇在节目中首次公开透露了一段从未告诉过父母的往事。他早年在大学主修人类服务专业（Human Services），志向是帮助处于困境中的人，尤其是协助吸毒者戒毒。他成长的亚利桑那州矿业小镇距离墨西哥边境不远，当地生活极度单调乏味，高质量、未经稀释的毒品泛滥成灾，他曾因此失去了数位挚友。在大学期间，盖奇产生了一种极端的想法：如果自己从未体验过那些瘾君子追逐的感觉，未来又怎能真正去理解并帮助他们戒毒？出于这种探究心理以及年轻人追求刺激的冲动，他尝试了各类药物。但他始终清楚自己有更伟大的使命要完成，因此从未让药物变成生活的拐杖，而是试过之后便彻底抽身，“那感觉确实很爽，但我绝不会再去碰它”。 ### [33:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=1995s) 信仰的力量与拒绝走向容易的人生 罗根询问盖奇，究竟是什么让他始终坚信自己背负着更重大的使命。盖奇回答，这很大程度上归功于他的信仰。小时候父母每周日都坚持带他去教堂，让他通过耶稣基督的话语建立起与上帝的连接，并努力达到信仰的要求。 盖奇剖析道，当一个人沉溺于酒精毒品或颓废的生活方式时，外界对你便毫无期待与要求，那里没有任何压力，那其实是一种逃避现实的“轻松活法”。许多人正是因为无法承受生活，才任由这种虚妄的快感吞噬掉生存的热情。但对他而言，来自信仰的对生活的热爱与追求，永远压过了仅仅想要“感觉舒服”的短暂欲望，他绝不允许自己选择那条最容易的下坡路。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 盖奇的心态演变路径 accDescr: 展现盖奇从无视防守的纯粹嗜血期转变到注重节奏与防守的冠军心态过程 subgraph S1["狂暴狂热期（WSOF至UFC早期）"] A["追求极度刺激与嗜血对攻"] --> B["不在乎挨拳：'场上毫无痛感'"] B --> C["体能全开硬耗对手"] end subgraph S2["惨痛转折点"] D["接连遭 Eddie Alvarez 与 Dustin Poirier 终结"] C --> D D --> E["反思：险些摧毁对手，却因防守疏漏被致命一击抓到"] end subgraph S3["冠军化演变（Trevor Wittman 战术重塑）"] F["确立核心原则：绝不白白挨打"] G["点控型打法：学会红线控制，张弛有度"] H["连续终结 Vick、Barboza、Cerrone 迈向冠军"] E --> F F --> G G --> H end ``` ### [34:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=2066s) 职业生涯的质变：从“追求最燃”到“加冕冠军” 罗根问及盖奇职业生涯的关键分水岭——从过去只想打出全世界最精彩刺激的比赛、不在乎输赢，转变为渴望夺取 UFC 冠军金腰带，究竟是什么促成了这一转变？盖奇解释说，其实并没有某一个顿悟的瞬间，唯一的转折点就是那句坚定的承诺：“我不能再白白挨打了。”在接连输给埃迪·阿尔瓦雷斯（Eddie Alvarez）和达斯汀·普瓦里尔的比赛中，他都险些将对手彻底摧毁，过去没有任何对手能在两三回合的高压暴风雨中撑下来，但顶尖名将挺过去了，并抓住他防守的破绽给予致命一击。盖奇坦言自己以前完全不在乎挨打，因为肾上腺素飙升时“在笼子里根本感觉不到疼”，但这两场失利让他彻底清醒，必须避免让自己陷入被裁判叫停的绝境。 主教练特雷弗·维特曼进一步从战术角度拆解了这一转变： - **两连败的战术反思**：盖奇在压制对手时容易出现细节失误，比如对阵普瓦里尔时踢出低扫后重心后撤过于懒散、双肩浮在臀部上方，直接被迎击拳重创。 - **引入“点控型打法”（Spot Fighter）**：维特曼要求盖奇学会控制节奏，不要从头到尾紧绷在极限“红线”（redline）上，而是学会“冲刺 50 码、收力慢跑 100 码、再爆发冲刺 50 码”。 - **三连胜的华丽蜕变**：战术调整后，盖奇凭借精准的抓机会能力连续首回合终结了詹姆斯·维克（James Vick）、埃德森·巴博萨（Edson Barboza）以及“牛仔”唐纳德·塞罗尼（Donald Cerrone）。 - **天生的观赏性**：维特曼曾问盖奇是否真的想成为世界冠军，并强调必须打得聪明；盖奇下场后也经常无辜地对维特曼说：“我真没刻意去打得那么刺激，但比赛自然就变成那样了。”这种激战本能早已刻在他的骨子里。 ### [37:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=2255s) 头部卸力与恐怖骨密度：被低估的防守与致命低扫 贾斯汀·盖奇（Justin Gaethje）针对外界认为他“总是硬抗重拳”的刻板印象做出了澄清。他解释称，由于视觉上的冲击力，观众很容易觉得他每拳都在结结实实挨打，但他并不是靠什么特殊坚硬的皮肤在扛伤害，而是在出拳瞬间凭借直觉做出精密计算，像水一样顺应来拳方向顺势卸力（Roll with the punches）。逐帧回放比赛会发现，绝大多数攻击并没有真正穿透他的头骨。乔·罗根（Joe Rogan）指出，目前的打击技术统计规则类似于业余拳击，只要手套碰到了脸，哪怕只是擦过或被滑开，都会被计入命中数；但特雷弗·维特曼（Trevor Wittman）强调，计分裁判不能只盯击中数，盖奇的攻击是带有穿透躯干的真正破坏力。维特曼还透露，UFC 曾做过身体测试，盖奇被证实拥有全 UFC 最硬的骨骼密度。 聊起盖奇极具杀伤力的扫踢，维特曼打趣地为长期担任盖奇靶师的卢克·考迪罗（Luke Caudillo）鸣不平。盖奇的低扫即便踢在防击打靶上，那种震荡波也会沿着大腿内侧神经直接传递到腹股沟。维特曼调侃道，卢克每次拿完靶回家都跟老婆抱怨自己被震出了“蛋疼/睾丸淤血”（Blue balls），搞得他老婆一脸困惑地反问：“你怎么会从贾斯汀身上搞出睾丸淤血？” - 盖奇的防守哲学：并非单纯硬顶，而是依靠本能微调头颈角度与移动，让对手的拳力发生偏转（Deflect）。 - 裁判统计盲区：擦过脸颊的轻触与带有转髋穿透力的重击在统计上往往被等同视之。 - 骨密度测试：UFC 内部测量数据显示盖奇具有惊人的骨骼硬度，配合转髋发力造成极高神经震荡。 --- ### [39:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=2370s) 领带式内围低扫与兄弟卢克的深厚情谊 罗根回忆起盖奇职业生涯早期令他震撼的一项招牌绝技：在贴身内围（Clinch）中使用领带式抓把（Collar tie）直接起腿爆肝低扫。通常选手的扫踢需要拉开距离发力，而盖奇凭借极为柔韧强悍的髋关节，能在咫尺之间把对手的身体重心死死下压拽向其前腿膝盖，将对手的前腿像树桩一样钉死在地面，随后以腰髋剧烈抽击撕扯对方的韧带。这种近身低扫技术在当年的 MMA 赛场上极其罕见。 话题随即转到卢克·考迪罗对盖奇的无私奉献。罗根提到在盖奇夺冠后进入八角笼时，卢克激动得无法自持，两人眼含热泪紧紧相拥。盖奇感慨卢克是他最铁的兄弟之一：在维特曼加入团队之前，盖奇趁着大学摔跤赛季的空窗期去亚利桑那打比赛，当时身边甚至没有正式教练，只有卢克自愿陪着他南下，帮他缠手带并在场角支持他。直到今天，卢克依然在盖奇每场比赛前紧张得止不住呕吐，这份共患难的情感早已超越了一般的陪练关系。 --- ### [40:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=2450s) 高尔夫醉酒惨案：周日加练整蛊教练组 维特曼和盖奇回忆起大战前周日的一段爆笑往事。通常大战周的周日全队彻底休息，当天他们前往高尔夫球场放松。由于球场负责人豪爽地表示“今天全场消费由总裁买单”，陪练教练本（Ben）和卢克彻底喝嗨了，两人灌下了三杯极浓的血腥玛丽（Bloody Mary），卢克更是直接狂饮了大约 12 听啤酒。打到第 10 或 11 洞时，维特曼提议整蛊这两个醉鬼，故意放出风声称“下午回去有一场高强度实战训练”。 维特曼编造了一份“地狱训练单”：卢克要跟盖奇打三回合全接触拳击实战，而本则必须跟盖奇连续无休缠斗（Grappling）40 分钟。醉意熏熏的两人在回程车上疯狂放狠话，本甚至扬言“想摔盖奇多少次就摔多少次”。回到驻地后盖奇先睡了两小时午觉，期间这两人继续喝酒并对着 YouTube 拍摄镜头疯狂吹嘘如何联手制服盖奇。然而真正踏上训练垫后局势瞬间变成单方面碾压： ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 高尔夫醉酒恶作剧演变流程 accDescr: 展示从球场酗酒放狠话到被盖奇在垫子上无情降服的全过程。 subgraph 酒精作祟 A["高尔夫球场免费畅饮<br/>（血腥玛丽 + 12听啤酒）"] --> B["维特曼假戏真做<br/>宣布周日高强度实战加练"] B --> C["本与卢克疯狂吹嘘<br/>镜头前谋划如何联手搞定盖奇"] end subgraph 现实毒打 C --> D["盖奇睡醒后踏上垫子"] D --> E["先暴揍卢克<br/>卢克被动挨打呼救喊本救命"] D --> F["本被拖回垫子硬撑20分钟<br/>遭盖奇连续降服7次"] end ``` 在实战中，盖奇先将卢克打得连连后退，卢克只能绝望地冲着在一旁不敢上前的本挥拳怒吼：“你他妈干嘛不上？现在正是时候啊！”随后盖奇抓着本缠斗了 20 分钟，足足在自家摔跤教练身上完成了 7 次降服，硬生生把叫嚣的教练拖回垫子上狠狠“上了一课”，整个团队在充满欢声笑语的恶搞与厮杀中完成了赛前备战。 --- ### [43:38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=2618s) 户外赛场的残酷环境：失水15磅与虚脱战栗 随后众人深入讨论了比赛场地的环境因素。维特曼与盖奇对赛前使用桑拿房的效果产生了分歧：维特曼一度认为非常完美，而盖奇则直言那对体能状态造成了严重的负面影响。尽管比赛时气温处于华氏 70 多度（约 21-26 摄氏度），甚至伴有凉爽微风，但赛场极为隐蔽的高湿度让盖奇始料未及。仅仅打完第一回合回到场角，盖奇脑海中就闪过念头：“见鬼，我怎么会累成这样？”整场比赛他流失了大约 15 磅体液。 作为在亚利桑那沙漠农村长大的硬汉，盖奇赛前曾寄希望于酷热天气能拖垮对手，他认定对手骨子里是个经不起风浪的“城里娃”（City boy）。然而户外开放式场馆的窒息感完全超出了预期，当盖奇坐在休息凳上时甚至出现了身体剧烈颤抖的极限虚脱反应。罗根对此感叹，要求卫冕世界冠军在一个完全陌生、不可控的露天外部环境中作战极其残酷，并一同盘点了 UFC 屈指可数的户外赛事记忆： - 2010 年阿布扎比 UFC 112：BJ·佩恩（BJ Penn）爆冷输给弗兰基·埃德加（Frankie Edgar）的露天大型竞技场之战。 - 墨尔本漫威体育场（Marvel Stadium）：伊斯瑞尔·阿迪萨亚（Israel Adesanya）在有顶棚遮蔽但环境基本等同户外的巨型场馆上演标志性出场秀。 - 户外气候的欺骗性：体表虽有凉风吹拂，但高湿度与剧烈运动叠加会导致机体急速脱水与体温调节失常。 ### [45:31](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=2731s) 极端气候作战与恶劣环境特训 三人回忆起在极端恶劣环境下举行的格斗赛事，从阿布扎比著名的法拉利主题公园（Ferrari World）聊到早期露天赛事的疯狂经历。Joe Rogan 提到了当年 Anderson Silva 对阵 Demian Maia 的比赛，大家纷纷回忆起在摩洛哥酷热天气下，有选手第一回合刚打完就体力耗尽、直言“只想活下去”的惨状。随后他们又盘点了早期露天举办的经典对决，比如在海滩烈日下的 BodogFight、拉斯维加斯凯撒皇宫（Caesars Palace）露天拳击场（Verno Phillips 的比赛，以及著名的 Roberto Durán 对阵 Thomas Hearns），甚至还有在 NASCAR 赛车场附近搭台的赛事。 虽然拉斯维加斯气候干燥，但高湿度环境对选手的体能和肺活量堪称毁灭性打击。Trevor Wittman 透露，为了让 Justin Gaethje 适应那种令人窒息的沉重空气和湿热，他在备战时专门针对“热射病”（heat stroke）进行了模拟： - 在训练馆中特意将室内温度调高，营造酷热环境。 - 采用极为严苛的桑拿热应激循环：先通过高强度训练将 Gaethje 的心率拉到极高水平。 - 随后立即进入桑拿房蒸 15 分钟，并在高温下向石头上浇水制造极高湿度。 - 刚从桑拿房出来，Gaethje 就要顶着窒息感连续高强度打 8 到 10 个回合。 这种魔鬼特训虽然极其痛苦，但在随后的恶劣与多变环境下发挥了决定性作用。 --- ### [47:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=2835s) 白宫之战彩排：暴雨突袭与不可预测的未知 谈到在白宫举行的这场前所未有的格斗赛，Gaethje 回忆起赛前彩排时的不解与烦躁。他起初觉得走场彩排简直是浪费时间：“这又不是结什么该死的婚，机位画好线、告诉我们在哪停不就结了？”但随后突发的暴雨打乱了一切，整个团队被困在休息室长达一个半到两小时。雷暴天气将雷达云图染成鲜红色，这彻底打破了 Gaethje 惯常的“心理视觉化模拟”（visualization）。因为在未知的外部环境下，他根本无法在大脑中构建赛场的具象画面。 比赛时间随之陷入极大的不确定性，甚至有推迟到深夜的说法： ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 暴雨导致比赛时间未知与备战调整流程 accDescr: 展示恶劣天气导致比赛推迟预期，进而促使选手调整作息与战术心智的过程 subgraph Weather["突发极端天气"] A["雷暴云图全红"] --> B["彩排被迫中断<br/>更衣室滞留 1.5-2 小时"] end subgraph Delay["赛程推迟与不确定性"] B --> C["传闻推迟至夜间 22:30"] C --> D["原定出场时间或延后至凌晨 02:00 / 03:00"] end subgraph Strategy["心态与生物钟调整"] D --> E["Gaethje 熬夜至凌晨三点调整生物钟"] E --> F["完全放弃固定套路<br/>随时准备应对未知"] end ``` 这种完全脱离常规掌控的场景让主教练 Wittman 压力巨大。平时习惯通过固定模式和呼吸调整心态的他，在那一刻紧张到了极点。Gaethje 作为被博彩公司开出 1 赔 6 的巨大下家（underdog），顶着美国本土选手的名号在白宫舞台作战，铺天盖地的舆论和悬殊赔率不断敲击着团队的神经。 --- ### [49:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=2958s) 椭圆形办公室出场、特朗普的纯金审美与历史定格 众人一边看着比赛录像，一边赞叹当时震撼全场的情景：Gaethje 从白宫椭圆形办公室（Oval Office）走出，在出场前注视着《独立宣言》（Declaration of Independence），随后在两旁列队士兵的注视中步入赛场。尽管外界有不少人抱怨和批评在白宫举办格斗赛，但 Rogan 直斥这些批评者纯属无稽之谈：“生活本身就是一场战斗，世界也是一场战斗，这种画面怎么可能不让人热血沸腾？” Gaethje 分享了他走进椭圆形办公室时的真实第一印象： - 现实中的椭圆形办公室比照片上看起来要“小得多”。 - 墙壁上到处都是醒目的纯金装饰，由于极其一尘不染，他忍不住调侃“这帮人肯定每天都在擦那些金子”。 - Rogan 透露这些纯金装饰全都是唐纳德·特朗普（Donald Trump）后来重新装修加上去的，特朗普本人是个“建筑狂热者”，甚至在一个门框上方还装了一个纯金小天使雕像，特朗普还曾开玩笑说：“要是普京来这儿，希望这玩意可别砸到普京头上。” Rogan 评价这场对决的传奇色彩超越了当年的“丛林之战”（Rumble in the Jungle）。这不仅因为场地绝无仅有，更因为 Gaethje 作为 1 赔 6 的冷门选手，以极其惊心动魄的方式实现了逆风翻盘。 --- ### [51:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=3074s) 裁判 Goddard 的关键判决与第四回合的终结 比赛过程可谓大起大落的“过山车”。在惊险的第二回合之后，局势一度十分严峻。当时对方选手遭遇重创并喊出“我看不见了，打不了了”，Gaethje 的教练团队甚至都以为比赛即将被叫停。Gaethje 当时大声祈祷让比赛继续进行，因为他极度渴望一个无可争议、决定性的终结，而非通过医务暂停草草了事。 三人高度称赞了当值主裁判 Mark Goddard 的执裁经验与果断： - 如果换作经验稍浅的裁判，很可能在对手声称看不见或者当值医生介入时直接宣布终止比赛。 - 对手原本寄希望于裁判主动叫停，但当 Goddard 明确示意“你必须继续打”时，对手不得不重新硬着头皮迎战。Gaethje 笑称那晚对手在心底里其实被自己“终结了两次”。 - 正是 Goddard 允许比赛继续，才诞生了随后堪称史诗般的第四回合：Gaethje 抓住机会打出极其凶狠的顶膝直击躯干（knee to the body），并跟进连续重肘和迎击重拳，彻底摧毁了对手的抵抗意志，最终迫使对手绝望地在场歇凳子上放弃比赛（quit on the stool）。 ### [54:06](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=3246s) 走进聚光灯与后空翻：高压下的专注与场外狂潮 回顾比赛终结的那一刻，乔·罗根与贾斯汀·盖奇（Justin Gaethje）感叹对手完全无法承受那记打击。作为一个拳迷，盖奇坦言如果自己是场下观众，这绝对是这辈子见过的最不可思议的盛况；但真正作为置身其中的拳手时，大脑根本没有闲暇去享受现场的壮观。盖奇将这种极度专注的心境比作打高尔夫：当一个人站上发球台时，脑子里只能有挥杆的核心意念，绝不能让任何杂念溜进来。当时出场通道两侧展示着《独立宣言》等宏大布景，但盖奇直言自己眼睛虽然看着，心里却完全没有去感受那份历史剧场感，脑海里循环播放的全是主教练特雷弗·维特曼（Trevor Wittman）灌输的技术口诀：“必须重置他的脚步、控场、往左移动、往左移动、绝不能被压在笼网边。” 罗根提到盖奇热身时的标志性画面：披着美国国旗在后场空击，那种肃穆而强大的气场让罗根在开赛前就笃定，如果盖奇今晚赢了，现场一定会陷入彻底的疯狂。事实正是如此，比赛以盖奇的巨大胜利画上句号后，整座场馆乃至外部场地都被一种纯粹的狂喜笼罩。盖奇在白宫背景前完成标志性的后空翻落地，甚至幽默地搬出了物理学来解释：“牛顿第一定律，运动中的物体倾向于保持运动，所以我落地顺势滚了一圈保持运动就行了。” 尽管内场只容纳了约4000人，但给选手的压迫感和能量却如同十万人的巨型体育场，因为场外聚集着85000多名通过巨型屏幕观赛的狂热观众。盖奇与维特曼回忆过磅时的场景，人山人海一眼望不到头，那种震撼的氛围简直就像是当年的伍德斯托克音乐节。UFC制作团队的呈现堪称完美，而盖奇在主赛中的逆转与统治力，更是给这场盛事完成了无可挑剔的加冕。 --- ### [57:24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=3444s) 战术拆解：从帕迪的混乱战到对阵托普里亚的步法陷阱 面对被公认为P4P顶级、拥有精准“神射手”级拳击技术的伊利亚·托普里亚（Ilia Topuria），盖奇直言维特曼制定的比赛计划堪称天才。格斗界在事后复盘往往容易沦为马后炮，但这次针对托普里亚的步法克制是极为精确的物理博弈。盖奇指出，如果现在去问托普里亚，对方很可能会觉得盖奇整场都在往右移动，因为盖奇的头部很重，身体一直向右侧倾斜，但事实上他的双脚整场都在持续向左侧滑步。由于托普里亚站姿极具方向性、前重心极强，直线冲刺极具杀伤力，可一旦被迫转向身体另一侧，任何人都无法发力冲刺，必须收力、重置轴心、重新瞄准才能出击。盖奇就是用极其微小而连贯的微调，不断打乱对方的启动节奏。 维特曼进一步对比了上一场对阵帕迪·平布莱特（Paddy Pimblett）与这场对阵托普里亚的战术截然不同： ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 盖奇针对不同对手的战术对比 accDescr: 维特曼展示针对帕迪的开放混乱战术与针对托普里亚的严密步法角度战术的差异。 subgraph 对阵帕迪["对阵帕迪·平布莱特 (Paddy)"] A1["大开大合/制造混乱局面"] --> A2["开掌打击控制外围"] A2 --> A3["远距离大摆拳与长上挑"] A3 --> A4["头部不深压，防范迎击飞膝与冲刺连击"] end subgraph 对阵托普里亚["对阵伊利亚·托普里亚 (Topuria)"] B1["双肘内收，保持防守架势紧凑"] --> B2["踩向对手轴心，占据其后脚外侧切线"] B2 --> B3["外侧刺拳持续推击其后肩"] B3 --> B4["刺拳停顿后右拳越过耸肩防线爆头"] end ``` - **对阵帕迪的策略**：帕迪擅长上半身大幅后仰拉开距离，且冲刺连击极快（类似早期的维托·贝尔福特），并伴随极危险的迎击膝撞。因此维特曼当时要求盖奇“制造最大程度的混乱”，采用开掌推击把帕迪圈在挥击弧度内，多打远距离的大摆拳与外围长勾拳，头部绝不盲目深扎进去。 - **对阵托普里亚的策略**：托普里亚前重心极重，必须收紧双肘保持紧凑阵型。关键点在于步步压迫对方中轴，将自己的前脚踏在托普里亚后脚的外侧连线上。 - **刺拳的细微差异**：盖奇的刺拳不是从内侧向上钻，而是从肩部外侧直线推向托普里亚的后肩。这一击精准地把前倾重心的托普里亚硬生生推到了后脚上，彻底剥离了其迎击和前冲的借力支点。 --- ### [01:00:43](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=3643s) 致命右拳、后撤禁忌与“锤子与钉子”的心态反思 维特曼让制作人杰米（Jamie）在屏幕上一帧一帧倒放那记改变战局的重击：盖奇打出一记外侧刺拳，稍作停顿，前导脚（左脚）瞬间向外迈出，精准落在托普里亚后脚的外侧。托普里亚习惯高耸肩防守，若直线出拳正好会被其肩部挡下，但盖奇借由切角将落点完全敞开，强力右拳如同越过盾牌般重重砸了进去。伴随着全场清晰可闻的沉重撞击声，托普里亚遭受了重创，盖奇兴奋地直言：“那一瞬间我甚至想直接扑上去降服他！” 两人特别提到了对阵托普里亚的“绝对禁忌”——绝不能向左后方直线后撤。托普里亚在终结亚历山大·沃尔卡诺夫斯基（Alexander Volkanovski）时正是抓住了这一点：当对手向后方左侧逃逸时，身体容易变方（双肩平行暴露），托普里亚会迅速调整前肩几乎切入反架，并凭借极强的前重心快速扑杀。因此盖奇坚决只做向左环绕步，绝不倒退。 随后，话题转向了托普里亚赛前的过度狂妄。托普里亚赛前一晚甚至还在举办庆祝晚宴，罗根与盖奇都认为这种心态虽然在赢的时候会被大众吹捧为“极度自信的魅力”，但在输掉后就会变成最惨痛的教训。盖奇一针见血地指出，托普里亚习惯了在比赛中扮演“锤子”的角色，却严重缺乏做“钉子”去承受击打和被动局面的经验，从心理上他根本没设想过自己会落入下风。 - **锤子与钉子的隐喻**：顺风顺水的拳手一旦从无坚不摧的“锤子”沦为被动挨打的“钉子”，往往缺乏在逆境中生存与调整的底层心理机制。 - **被低估的身体天赋**：盖奇认为对手和外界总以为他只是个硬碰硬的拼血条战士，而忽视了他身上那种怪异、抽动（herky-jerky, twitchy）且爆发力极强的纯运动天赋。罗根则反驳称，只要真正懂行的人都不会质疑他的运动机能。盖奇随后笑着回忆起自己大一刚进大学摔跤队时，仅仅靠做一个单手侧空翻就让所有人目瞪口呆的往事。 ### [01:02:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=3770s) 盖奇的“隐性运动天赋”与混沌战斗风格 贾斯汀·盖奇（Justin Gaethje）谈到了旁人对他身体素质的误解。一次他做了个后空翻，旁边有人惊讶得合不拢嘴，直言：“我做梦都想不到你居然能做出这种动作……你看上去根本不像个运动员。”乔·罗根（Joe Rogan）听完立即反驳这种看法太离谱了，盖奇的外形和运动能力完全是顶级的。主教练特雷弗·维特曼（Trevor Wittman）更是搬出了一连串往事来力挺盖奇。维特曼回忆起刚认识盖奇时，盖奇去格兰比（Granby）跟教练本·切灵顿（Ben Cherington）参加摔跤训练营，冷不丁给维特曼发来一段录像：盖奇站在垫了垫子的高中礼堂里，把手机架在靠墙的垫子上，随手将足球抛向空中，做了一记极其舒展的倒钩射门（bicycle kick），落地平稳，而那记射门不偏不倚正好精准砸翻了录像的手机。维特曼当时直接惊呆了，因为盖奇这辈子大概就踢过一两年足球。 不仅如此，维特曼还提到了单板滑雪。维特曼年轻时曾是职业单板滑雪选手，而盖奇展现出的身体控制和翻腾调整能力让他叹为观止。一次在滑雪场凹凸不平的雪包（moguls）地形中，盖奇做了一个 360 度旋转，结果卡刃摔倒背部着地，但他顺势借助雪包的反弹力，直接在凹凸的雪面上弹起翻了一个后空翻，并稳稳落回滑道继续滑行。旁边围观的雪友全都看傻了，以为这是盖奇精心设计的特技动作。罗根笑着打趣道，盖奇确实不像保罗·科斯塔（Paulo Costa）那样肌肉线条刀刻斧凿、体脂极低，但任何人看盖奇打比赛，都绝不可能怀疑他的顶尖爆发力与协调性。盖奇则自嘲说，可能是自己打帕迪·平布莱特（Paddy Pimblett）之后，有些“专家”跳出来批评他动作太邋遢（sloppy）。罗根直言那些批评者根本不懂格斗，那场比赛盖奇从头到尾都在施加高压，当盖奇根本不在乎平布莱特的打击力量时，整场比赛就演变成了盖奇主导的纯粹混沌与正面碾压。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 盖奇的身体控制力与运动天赋 accDescr: 展示教练维特曼回忆中盖奇展现顶级运动本能的三个典型场景 subgraph SportsAnecdotes["顶级运动协调性例证"] A["足球倒钩射门<br/>踢中手机录像"] B["单板雪包 360 卡刃<br/>借反弹完成受身翻滚"] C["八角笼内后空翻<br/>与全压制混沌打击风格"] end A --> D["潜意识神经反射与顶尖运动天赋"] B --> D C --> D ``` --- ### [01:05:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=3913s) 惨败麦克斯·霍洛威：救护车里的品格试炼 罗根指出，盖奇对自己保持这种近乎苛刻的认知反而是好事，它能逼迫盖奇超越所有人的预期；正因为上一场对手伊利亚·托普里亚（Ilia Topuria）如此危险，盖奇才必须进入毫无杂念的绝对专注状态，绝不能重蹈对阵麦克斯·霍洛威（Max Holloway）时的覆辙。盖奇深有感触地承认，正是 UFC 300 被霍洛威压哨击倒的惨痛教训成就了今天的自己：“如果没有那场失利，我绝不可能像现在这样渴望胜利。”盖奇回忆，被击倒后他整整断片了四十分钟到一个小时，完全不记得裁判举起霍洛威的手，大脑一片空白，直到在救护车里睁开眼看到母亲的脸，记忆才重新连接。 特雷弗·维特曼随后讲述了盖奇断片期间一段令人震撼的插曲。当时在救护车后厢，医护人员在旁照看，盖奇的母亲站在车门外。盖奇脑震荡发作，每隔两分钟就会短时失忆一次，眼神茫然地看着维特曼问：“我是不是被击倒了？”维特曼回答：“是的。”盖奇又问：“第几回合？”维特曼说：“最后一秒。”听到这个残酷的答案，躺在担架上的盖奇脱口而出的第一句话却是：“那真替他高兴（Good for him, dude）。”过了两分钟，两人像平常一样聊了几句，盖奇的大脑再次重置，又问出同样的问题，得到答案后又毫不犹豫地重复：“那真替他高兴。” 维特曼和罗根都为之动容。维特曼强调，人在重度脑震荡、意识模糊且完全不受主观控制的潜意识状态下吐露的真言，是人性品格（character）最纯粹的试金石。面对在全世界上亿观众面前遭遇最后一秒被 KO 的巨大痛苦，盖奇没有怨天尤人，没有虚伪矫饰，只有对胜者的由衷认可——“技不如人，今晚更强的选手赢了”。罗根直言，正是这种没有被膨胀自负（ego）所拖累的纯粹人格，才让盖奇打破了许多自负拳手无法突破的心理天花板，真正逼近了自己的极限潜能。直到看见母亲那充满关切却沉着坚毅的面容，确认母亲没有惊慌失措后，盖奇紧绷的神经才终于彻底安顿下来，大脑也不再死循环地询问比赛结果。 - 维特曼回忆盖奇在救护车里重复询问自己是否被 KO 多达六七次，每次反应都是完全一致的钦佩对手，毫无怨恨。 - 盖奇的母亲表现得极其镇定从容，她的沉着直接帮助处于失忆恐慌边缘的盖奇稳定了情绪。 --- ### [01:08:28](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=4108s) 教练的骄傲时刻与轻量级的身形博弈 维特曼坦言，作为教练，自己最引以为傲的瞬间往往不是弟子夺冠的狂欢，而是他们在遭受重创时展现出的不屈斗魂。他提起卡马努·乌斯曼（Kamaru Usman）被莱昂·爱德华兹（Leon Edwards）高扫击倒的那一刻，自己站在场边甚至带着微笑，因为乌斯曼是战斗到最后一刻的勇士；维特曼还提到了贾斯汀·萨利斯（Justin Salas）迎战蒂姆·米恩斯（Tim Means）的惨烈战役：萨利斯连吃飞膝失去意识倒地，但在昏迷状态下，他的右腿依然在蹬地、双拳依然在下意识挥击。这种融入骨髓与潜意识的战斗本能，彻底击中了维特曼的内心。维特曼表示，自己总是在场上第一批走上前安慰落败对手的人，他十分期待看到托普里亚在遭遇挫折后如何反弹，并认为只要吸取正确的教训，托普里亚定能涅槃重生。 随后话题转向了伊利亚·托普里亚升级到轻量级（155磅）的前景与体型劣势。维特曼和罗根都对托普里亚是否应该留在 155 磅表示怀疑。罗根指出，现代综合格斗的减重技术极其夸张，托普里亚在羽量级（145磅）本就算不上体型庞大，而当他站在盖奇身边时，两人的骨架和体量差距肉眼可见地悬殊。盖奇点头赞同，并透露在过去的这三四场比赛周期里，自己一直在极其专注且有针对性地增加纯肌肉量与整体体型，这也是他在轻量级能够形成巨大对抗威慑力的物理根基。 ### [01:10:38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=4238s) 赛后补水、药检波折与减重带来的危险 三人聊到了减重与补水期间的体重剧烈浮动。贾斯汀·盖奇（Justin Gaethje）透露，在周六晚上准备睡觉时他的体重约为 184 磅，而次日早晨醒来就掉到了 176 磅左右，人体这种“浮动”（floating）水重的方式简直不可思议。然而，疯狂补水也带来了意想不到的麻烦：盖奇因为补了太多水分，尿液过于稀释，导致药检无法顺利达标。他被要求连续尿了三次，期间甚至被禁止喝水。特雷弗·维特曼（Trevor Wittman）指出，赛后药检本就令人头疼，以往比赛一结束就要检测，但当时选手肾上腺素飙升根本尿不出来，经常在更衣室硬生生干坐好几个小时；而如今改在补水阶段检测，选手们本就在拼命狂灌水分，尿液过淡又成了新的难题。 随后话题转向了减重与体能级别的关系。维特曼分析，伊利亚·托普里亚（Ilia Topuria）虽然体格较小，但他升重时最大的王牌是速度，很多选手升级后速度优势尤为明显；反观马克斯·霍洛威（Max Holloway），虽然升上来时速度维持得很好，但此前降回 145 磅羽量级时那一记艰难的减重过程极具摧残性。维特曼从教练的角度强调，他最在乎选手的职业生涯寿命，他曾多次目睹选手因为极端恶劣的减重，在场上连被一记普通刺拳擦到都会被击倒。这种反复降重的摧残，是格斗界中最凶险也最可怕的隐患。 - 盖奇在周六入睡时体重约为 184 磅，醒来时降到约 176 磅。 - 药检规定尿液若因过度水化过于稀释（diluted），则无法作为有效样本，必须重新排尿检验。 --- ### [01:12:19](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=4339s) 极端减重对大脑的伤害与拳坛悲剧反思 乔·罗根（Joe Rogan）提出，MMA 界亟需革新两件事：一是减重机制，二是维特曼研发的专利手套。针对是否应该设立更多量级，维特曼认为量级划分是把双刃剑，如果划分过细可能会稀释选手的整体水准。盖奇则直言自己希望维持现状，认为成年人应该为自己的选择买单；虽然自己降到 155 磅极其痛苦，但这是他在该体格下的自主抉择。罗根则反驳道，目前 170 磅到 185 磅、185 磅到 205 磅、以及 205 磅到 265 磅之间的跨度实在太大，卡在中间体型的选手面临极其尴尬的抉择。 维特曼进一步分享了自己关于拳击运动伤亡的深入调研，并曾与运动医学专家深入探讨。他发现过去 10 到 15 年间，拳击比赛中的死亡案例绝大多数都发生在第 9 回合之后；许多选手并非被当场重击休克，而是在没有承受致命打击的情况下突然体力不支、单膝跪地倒下，随后发生脑出血。维特曼指出，比赛前一天强行降水，实质上是在训练身体疯狂排汗。赛前极度脱水就像嘴唇干裂一样，会导致大脑严重脱水、缺少保护缓冲。维特曼回忆卡马努·乌斯曼（Kamaru Usman）在某场比赛前遭遇极度严重的抽筋，让他心惊肉跳，险些在几分钟内就决定叫停比赛。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 极端减重与脱水对选手的潜在生理危险 accDescr: 展现了极端减重、水分流失、脑部保护降低及高强度比赛最终导致脑损伤的连锁反应机制。 subgraph WeightCut["称重阶段"] A["极端控水与暴汗减重"] --> B["身体水分与电解质被完全抽空"] end subgraph Dehydration["脱水反应"] B --> C["肌肉严重抽筋"] B --> D["脑部严重脱水 / 缓冲液体流失"] end subgraph FightDamage["高强度实战"] D --> E["比赛后半程体能枯竭"] E --> F["脑血管脆弱 / 承受打击后极易颅内出血"] end ``` --- ### [01:15:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=4508s) 盖奇的硬核训练哲学与“不喝水”的心理战 维特曼提到了一件赛后回想起来既荒谬又后怕的轶事：在贾斯汀·盖奇对阵托尼·弗格森（Tony Ferguson）的那场整整五回合的恶战中，维特曼在回合休息时竟然完全忘了给盖奇喝水。原因在于盖奇平时的备战习惯极其极端——他在日常训练和力量体能训练中从不喝水。盖奇笑称，训练馆里只要有人问他要不要喝水，他总会冷酷地回应：“水是给懦夫喝的（Water's for pussies）。”虽然这场比赛在团队要求下盖奇开始被动补水，但他骨子里依然认为在苦练中停下来喝水是一种心理拐杖。 罗根惊叹于这种精神层面的极端自虐，并联想到穆斯林选手在斋月（Ramadan）期间的艰苦训练——例如贝拉尔·穆罕默德（Belal Muhammad）在白天滴水不进的情况下硬顶高强度实战，直到夜间才能进水进食。罗根分析，从运动科学角度看，补水能让选手完成更多的训练量和组数，但从心理层面来说，剥夺水分换来的是难以摧毁的钢铁意志。维特曼和罗根一致认同，正是这种无与伦比的坚韧意志，让盖奇在第二回合遭遇险情时顶住了狂风暴雨，换成顶尖层面的许多其他拳手，恐怕早已在那个回合彻底崩溃放弃。 - 盖奇在击败托尼·弗格森的五回合比赛期间，角落团队全程未给他补充一滴水。 - 盖奇在日常训练（包括力量与体能训练）中习惯滴水不沾，仅在训练完全结束后才进行大量补水。 --- ### [01:17:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=4629s) 八角笼内的从容与应对网络流言的心态 盖奇回忆起在比赛中挨到重击时的真实心境：当被对手打中时，他脑子里闪过的念头仅仅是“噢，操（Oh, fuck）”，但他从未产生过哪怕一丝觉得自己要输或者要放弃的想法。维特曼大笑着回忆，盖奇在回合休息坐回角落时，竟然像个没事人一样若无其事地跟教练交流：“伙计，那一记爆肝拳打得真准。”维特曼当场惊呆，心想谁会在被重创后还能这般心平气和地夸奖对手的进攻。 盖奇表示，自己非常清楚这场比赛的利害关系与对手的为人。他深知一旦对手获胜或将自己KO，对方将会展现出多么极端的傲慢与不尊重，世界舆论也会变得极其恶劣，因此他绝不允许自己在这场比赛中倒下。最后，谈到网上有人造谣说他在拳套里藏石头（loaded gloves）甚至指责他嗑药时，盖奇和罗根都认为这些指控荒谬可笑。然而盖奇把这些无脑的阴谋论当作一种变相的赞美：“说我打人像拳套里塞了砖头？这简直是最高的夸奖。”他坦承自己一路走来之所以能攀上巅峰，很大程度上就是靠着一股“小心眼”（petty）和好胜心，甚至至今依然会翻看网络上的评论来刺激自己。 ### [01:18:34](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=4714s) 黑粉的动力、“竞技场中的斗士”与为对手喝彩的心态 特雷弗·维特曼（Trevor Wittman）谈到网络评论对选手的侵蚀时透露，他曾多次告诫贾斯汀·盖奇（Justin Gaethje）千万不要去翻看网上的恶评，因为那些言论足以摧毁许多人的理智，让人的大脑彻底陷入疯狂。然而，盖奇的反应却截然相反——他不仅爱看，甚至直言这些负面评论就是自己的燃料。乔·罗根（Joe Rogan）顺势提到了大卫·戈金斯（David Goggins）的极端做法：戈金斯会把黑粉嘲弄他的语音录成循环音频，在长跑时一遍又一遍地放给自己听。盖奇笑称自己虽然不至于像戈金斯那样戴着耳机循环播放，但他完全清楚外界每天都在讲什么风凉话，而正是这种外界的轻视与质疑，在某种程度上驱动他拿下了胜利。 罗根引述了西奥多·罗斯福著名的“竞技场中的斗士”（The Man in the Arena）演讲，指出无论你攀登到多高的高度，场外永远都会站着指手画脚的看客；在顶尖综合格斗的绞杀中，渴望让每个人都满意不仅是天方夜谭，而且成为冠军的过程往往充斥着令人痛苦的重压。罗根深刻分析道，有些网络看客自身的心理状态极其病态，他们无法忍受别人卓越，因为他人的成功如同一面镜子，映照出他们自身生活的平庸与失败，从而夺走了他们心底脆弱的优越感。 面对这种普遍的嫉妒心，盖奇展现出极为豁达的心态。他坦言自己由衷喜欢看到美好的事情发生在别人身上，甚至回忆起在 UFC 300 上被麦克斯·霍洛威（Max Holloway）压哨读秒 KO 的瞬间：“当麦克斯击倒我时，我心里的想法是‘真替他高兴’（Good for him）。你完全能想象他那一刻的感受有多棒。”罗根认为，只有倾尽全力、彻底榨干自身潜能且敢于承担失败的人，才能拥有这种坦荡为对手喝彩的心胸。盖奇感慨，自己如今取得的成就早已超越了维特曼在 2011 年的预期，超越了罗根在 2017 年的预判，甚至远远击穿了他自己最初的人生设想，这种实现目标的充盈感是任何恶评都无法夺走的。 ### [01:20:54](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=4854s) 戳破派对狂欢的谣言、反侦察备战与心理战博弈 针对外界的荒谬偏见，话题转向了伊利亚·托普利亚（Ilia Topuria）此前在播客中的武断断言。托普利亚不仅宣称盖奇毫无胜算，还凭空捏造称盖奇是个“白天睡觉比晚上还多、整天沉迷派对与大麻”的浪子。盖奇对此嗤之以鼻，直斥这种言论蠢到极点：“要以为我是靠天天酗酒狂欢走到今天这个位置的，那简直是疯了。”盖奇透露自己的日常生活枯燥到了极致，从不去酒吧混迹，平时雷打不动保持 8 到 10 小时的睡眠，而在本次大战的整个战斗周期间，为了储备体能，他每天晚上的睡眠时间甚至长达整整 12 个小时。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 训练营反侦察与战术心理博弈流程 accDescr: 展示贾斯汀·盖奇在备战中如何通过严密的内容封锁打破对手战术预期的闭环逻辑。 subgraph Info["训练营信息控制"] A["常规训练营：公开实战与打靶"] --> B["本次营期：全面封锁媒体镜头"] end subgraph Tactic["技术与心理布局"] B --> C["秘密打磨内线紧凑打击战术"] C --> D["诱导对手建立脱离现实的心理预期"] end subgraph Fight["赛场心理兑现"] D --> E["比赛遭遇逆境无法自拔"] E --> F["高压之下心理防线彻底崩溃"] end ``` 维特曼与盖奇详细拆解了本次训练营极其严密的反侦察举措。盖奇深知对手团队会时刻通过其个人 YouTube 频道侦察备战状态；在以往的训练营中，他们会大方展示实战对练与手靶训练的片段，但这次备战期间，盖奇在镜头前甚至连一次手靶和实战画面都没有泄露过。维特曼团队秘密重塑了战术框架，重点打磨了更加紧凑干练的拳法体系。这种信息封锁使得对手在赛前构建的一切心理假想全部脱离了现实基础，完全落入了盖奇的心理掌控之中。 谈及此前在访谈中开玩笑嘲讽对手私生活的言论，盖奇澄清自己绝非带有恶意去攻击他人的个人境遇，那只是随口调侃，但他确实打心底受不了那种极度自负、在任何场合都试图抢夺所有人风头的虚荣性格。盖奇在赛前曾精准断言：一旦比赛拖入第二、第三回合，当对手原有的狂妄预期与现实产生剧烈碰撞并遭遇真正的逆境时，对手脆弱的心理防线根本无法将自己打捞出来。格斗中 90% 取决于心理，面对残酷逆境时自恋只会演变为致命毒药，而赛场的发展完全印证了他的预言。 ### [01:24:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=5066s) 输给霍洛威后的高尔夫蜕变、冠军的清醒与继续征战的决心 罗根指出，优秀的拳手绝不能盲目死踩油门，在遭遇挫折后必须具备客观审视自我并做出战略微调的能力。维特曼随即打趣地揭秘了盖奇在输给霍洛威之后是如何走出阴霾的——他居然在整整六个月的时间里天天泡在高尔夫球场上。盖奇对此大笑承认确有其事，维特曼补充说丹尼尔·科米尔（DC）看到盖奇挥杆时惊叹不已，直呼盖奇展现出的水平像是一个苦练了多年的资深球手。 罗根高度评价了这种“具备极强可塑性且极度客观”（coachable and objective）的运动员特质。许多拳手终其一生都困在自欺欺人的妄想（delusional）之中，无法面对真实的自我，而盖奇却能用近乎挑剔的眼光审视自身短板并冷静调整。维特曼强调了视角（perspective）的重要性：人必须学会在内心深处看待事物，既不过度自喜，也不过度消沉。甚至在打赢这场史诗级战役飞回丹佛机场时，盖奇一行人毫无喧闹的庆功仪式，只是平淡地在机场早早坐下接受了陌生人的请酒。 - 尽管盖奇天性排斥大张旗鼓的游行庆祝，但罗根极力鼓励他应当学会在镜子前享受片刻属于王者的至高幸福感：“这并不意味着你要喝掉三瓶伏特加然后光着身子在大街上乱晃大喊蛋黄酱品牌，但你确实应该坐下来对自己由衷赞叹一句：‘老子做到了！’” - 当罗根试探性询问他是否还会继续职业生涯时，新晋冠军盖奇给出了无比坚定的回答：他目前绝对打算继续打下去。 - 盖奇表示，在刚刚打出如此具有统治力的表现之后，他的身体与天性中完全没有感受到任何“生涯该结束了”的信号，他的格斗旅程依然在继续向前推进。 ### [01:26:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=5206s) 盖奇谈历史贡献与报酬诉求：被动收入与股权构想 贾斯汀·盖奇与乔·罗根深入探讨了拳手在职业生涯特定阶段所面临的价值变现难题。盖奇直言不讳地指出，他如今的心态已经发生了转变：他理应为自己“已经创造的辉煌成就”获得巨额补偿，而不是每次为了拿到该有的回报，就必须继续被迫签下下一场血战。盖奇回顾道，无论是 UFC 300 还是 UFC 324，每当 UFC 需要在最宏大的舞台上有人打出惊世骇俗的史诗级表现时，赛事方每一次都会把赌注压在他身上，而他也每一次都不负众望地兑现了承诺。即便在 UFC 300 对阵麦克斯·霍洛威时他最终遗憾落败，但那场联合主赛依然抢走了全场所有的焦点，因此他坚信自己过去的汗水与付出应当折算为真正的资产回报。 当罗根询问这是否意味着他要在下一场比赛重新谈判出场合同（Renegotiate）时，盖奇给出了一个更具商业野心的答案。他澄清自己并不是在纠结单场出场费，而是认为 UFC 应该专门成立一家附属商业实体并赋予他股权，让他能够以此建立长期的“被动收入”（Passive Income）。盖奇坦言自己生性不爱主动向人伸手索要好处，所幸现在雇佣了一位私人助理代他开口交涉。他感慨那些敢于主动索取并总能如愿以偿的人，但就他个人的性格原则而言，白来的便宜他绝不会轻易接受。 - 核心诉求：应当按历史卓越贡献获得股权与被动收入分红，而非仅靠下一场比赛的出场费重新谈判。 - 关键履历：在 UFC 300、UFC 324 等核心历史节点上，盖奇多次在关键时刻挽救或引爆了赛事热度。 ### [01:28:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=5290s) 阿尔曼的一百万豪赌与皮卡车纠纷：潜在的头号挑战者 盖奇聊起了轻量级名将阿尔曼·萨鲁基安（Arman Tsarukyan）送车的一段趣事。罗根向听众解释了前因后果：此前阿尔曼曾豪掷100万美元押注盖奇获胜，并最终赢取了大约530万至570万美元的巨额奖金；发了横财后，阿尔曼放话要给盖奇买一辆顶级皮卡车作为谢礼。然而盖奇坚决拒收这辆车，理由十分纯粹：“他从没跟我握手立约，这车根本不属于我。我可不想每天开着一辆别的男人给我买的车到处晃荡。”罗根则在旁边疯狂起哄，笑称如果自己是阿尔曼，就算硬塞进喉咙里、直接把车运到盖奇家门口再送上一个大拥抱，也必须把车送出去。 话题随后转向了盖奇的心头好——高性能皮卡。盖奇目前拥有一辆谢尔比猛禽（Shelby Raptor），但在录制现场看中罗根那辆由轩尼诗（Hennessey）操刀改装、车身涂有巨幅美国国旗（USA）拉花的越野皮卡后，盖奇立刻被深深吸引，直言自己的下一辆车绝对就是这个配置。笑谈之余，罗根提醒盖奇，阿尔曼极有可能就是他接下来的下一个卫冕对手。随着伊斯兰·马哈切夫升入170磅次中量级，阿尔曼俨然已成为轻量级排名最高的头号顺位挑战者；与此同时，查尔斯·奥利维拉也公开叫阵，希望能与盖奇争夺无可争议的轻量级金腰带与 BMF 冠军头衔。至于此前被他打停的对手提出的二番战诉求，盖奇则毫不留情地予以回绝，认为对方曾在比赛板凳上直接弃权过两次，已经没有资格再战，更应该先去对阵帕迪·平布莱特（Paddy Pimblett）或伯努瓦·圣丹尼斯（Benoît Saint Denis）。 - 赌资细节：阿尔曼·萨鲁基安在盖奇的比赛上下注 100 万美元，最终赢下约 570 万美元。 - 车型讨论：盖奇现驾驶 Shelby Raptor，但对罗根由 Hennessey 定制改装的带有 USA 国旗拉花皮卡赞不绝口。 - 挑战格局：轻量级下一阶段的核心潜在对局包括阿尔曼·萨鲁基安与查尔斯·奥利维拉。 ### [01:30:29](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=5429s) 疯狂擂台与传奇履历：三条腰带与12次领衔主赛 罗根感叹 MMA 这项运动的起伏跌宕简直超乎想象——不久前盖奇在 UFC 300 读秒遭遇惨烈 KO，如今却再次坐稳巅峰，甚至手握让所有人都艳羡的硬核荣誉。盖奇骄傲地清点了自己的战利品收藏，表示自己囊括了这项运动里所有含金量十足的金腰带：一条正式的 UFC 轻量级冠军腰带、一条象征格斗硬汉的 BMF 腰带，以及一条全世界仅铸造了两条、分量沉重异常的 UFC 250 特制腰带。 作为一名铁杆格斗迷，盖奇强调自己踏入八角笼的初衷就是要实现常人难以企及的伟业，而他所交出的成绩单在格斗史上近乎无法复制。他在 UFC 征战的生涯早期，仅用了前7场比赛就不可思议地横扫了9次赛后最佳花红；在总计16至17场 UFC 征程中，有大约12次直接作为头条主赛领衔海报。盖奇动情地表示，能够把自己的肖像印在主赛官方海报中央是极少数精英才能享有的特权，回顾走过的这条路，作为拳手和格斗迷双重身份的自己，内心感到由衷的自豪与满足。 - 冠军荣誉：同时拥有无可争议世界冠军金腰带、BMF 金腰带以及极其稀有的 UFC 250 特制重型纪念金腰带（仅铸造两件）。 - 生涯数据：UFC 生涯前 7 场比赛席卷 9 次赛后花红；在 16 至 17 场 UFC 赛事中有约 12 场担任头条主赛（Main Event）。 ### [01:31:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=5512s) 加恩的猫步敏捷与重量级对决：佩雷拉升重的得与失 话题随后转移到了刚刚结束的重量级焦点战，罗根询问盖奇是否看了西里尔·加恩（Ciryl Gane）与亚历克斯·佩雷拉（Alex Pereira）的较量。盖奇解释说自己当时正身处后台，当现场传奇主持人布鲁斯·巴佛（Bruce Buffer）登台开场后，工作人员就把他转移进了一间没有任何电视转播屏幕的隔离备战间（也就是后来网络上疯传他拿着国旗热身空击的房间）。在那闭塞的30分钟里，他只能隐约听见场馆内传来的首回合结束铃声，甚至连终结瞬间的观众欢呼都没听见，直到最后从广播隐约听见宣布加恩胜出。 众人随即对西里尔·加恩在重量级独树一帜的打法风格展开了热烈解析。罗根惊叹加恩在八角笼里的步法“轻盈得如同一只敏捷的大猫”，并指出加恩早年拥有深厚的篮球运动背景，篮球运动中频繁的高强度变向、爆发性跳跃与增强式训练（Plyometrics），赋予了他不可思议的敏捷度。即便加恩体重高达248磅，但在笼内的移动与控距却像中量级甚至次中量级选手一样流畅。特雷弗·维特曼与罗根进一步剖析了佩雷拉升重至251磅后的身体负担：虽然佩雷拉骨架巨大且具备毁灭性的终结力量，但身体并未经过漫长时间来适应如此沉重的负荷。在面对加恩这种擅长外围游走、敏捷出众的技术流大汉时，盲目挂肉不仅损失了宝贵的速度与体能，反倒让身体承受了过多的重力负担，最终在站立对攻中甚至被加恩的一记前手刺拳抓准时机精准击倒。 - 选手体重数据：西里尔·加恩临场约 248 磅，亚历克斯·佩雷拉升重至约 251 磅。 - 技战术解析：加恩的篮球背景赋予其无与伦比的多向敏捷度与站立刺拳控距优势；佩雷拉升重破坏了原有速度与节奏优势。 ### [01:34:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=5690s) 盖恩的重量级步伐与后脑击打争议 乔·罗根、贾斯汀·加瑟基与教练特雷弗·维特曼一同回看西里尔·盖恩（Ciryl Gane）与佩雷拉（Pereira）的比赛录像。罗根赞叹盖恩在八角笼内的表现极其轻盈、放松，对于一名重量级选手来说，能够全程用脚尖跳跃移动、保持如此敏捷的步伐实属罕见。加瑟基与维特曼也指出，盖恩非常聪明，完全不给佩雷拉站稳双脚调整重击重心的机会，甚至频频做出下潜抱腿的假动作（feints）；即便盖恩没有真正执着于摔跤，也足以让对手时刻分心防摔。 随后三人讨论起这场比赛的判罚争议。佩雷拉赛后强烈抗议盖恩存在多次击打后脑的违规行为。维特曼和罗根比划着规则细节进行复盘：后脑的违规区域实际上是一条像“莫霍克发型（Mohawk）”般大约2英寸宽的垂直带状区域。罗根指出，尽管不少拳砸在耳朵侧面属于合法范围，但随着对手俯身下潜至腰部，在动态混乱的攻防中，确实有三到四记铁锤拳（hammer fist）直接落在了违规的后脑区域。不过维特曼与罗根均认为这属于激烈对抗中的意外，并非蓄意违规——这就好比比赛中的意外插眼，如果拳手的精准度真能随心所欲，他们早就一拳精准轰在下巴上了。 录像播放至比赛的终结阶段，盖恩在站立中以一记极其凶狠的肘击重创对手，佩雷拉瞬间陷入巨大麻烦并被彻底打垮。尽管佩雷拉赛后对主裁判赫伯·迪恩（Herb Dean）极其愤怒，甚至怒斥赫伯·迪恩“不配再当裁判”，但加瑟基与罗根在看完录像后均认为这是一次合理的终止。罗根指出，那是一连串重击累积造成的崩溃，或许佩雷拉还能多挨一两拳，但落败已成定局；选手在失利后试图唤起外界对后脑违规的关注是人之常情，但这场比赛盖恩在第一回合的表现和最后的终结都极为出色。 - **后脑击打判定标准**：裁判向选手讲解规则时，后脑违规区域严格限定为后脑正中央一条约2英寸宽、类似莫霍克发型的垂直区域，偏向耳朵侧面的击打均为合法。 - **终结镜头细节**：盖恩以一记致命肘击打晃佩雷拉，随后跟进连续打击造成累积伤害，赫伯·迪恩随即叫停比赛。 --- ### [01:37:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=5840s) 裁判执法争议：加瑟基与迈克尔·钱德勒之战的插眼漏判 加瑟基坦言执裁是一项极其艰难的工作，但他向来对裁判要求极高，甚至显得有些“苛刻”。他强调，在八角笼这种高风险对抗中，裁判的首要职责是保护选手的生命安全，因此容不得半点失误。加瑟基借此重提了他与迈克尔·钱德勒（Michael Chandler）的那场经典血战，直言自己至今仍对当值主裁判迈克·贝尔特兰（Mike Beltran，以标志性胡须长辫闻名的裁判）耿耿于怀，因为贝尔特兰从未就当晚的重大疏漏向他做出过任何撤回或道歉。 加瑟基回忆，当时钱德勒在比赛中狠狠戳中了他的眼睛，然而贝尔特兰却被双方对轰的恐怖火力吓退，没有第一时间果断切入两人中间隔开，反而任由钱德勒紧接着轰出一记凶狠的大摆拳砸中加瑟基。更让加瑟基愤怒的是，贝尔特兰不仅漏判了这次打击，甚至剥夺了他应得的恢复时间。当时回合虽然只剩5秒，但贝尔特兰走过来只问了一句：“你还好吗？”加瑟基当时眼睛剧痛、面部充血，当即没好气地回呛：“不好，他刚戳了我他妈的眼睛！”结果贝尔特兰又重复追问：“行，但你能打吗？”在格斗选手的本能与尊严驱使下，加瑟基只能硬着头皮回答“我能打”，贝尔特兰便立刻下令比赛继续。 罗根对此深表赞同，直言裁判问“你还好吗”完全是失职的错误提问。根据统一MMA规则，遭遇意外插眼的拳手享有长达5分钟的法定恢复时间，裁判必须明确告知选手拥有5分钟，并确认选手能否看清、是否需要队医进场，而不是催促拳手重新交火。加瑟基回忆道，第一回合结束后他直接冲着贝尔特兰破口大骂：“兄弟，把你那榆木脑袋清醒清醒！你的职责是保护我，你刚刚眼睁睁看着我挨了一记重击，你到底在搞什么鬼？！”而贝尔特兰只是不断冷漠地敷衍让他回凳子上去。加瑟基表示，直到今天贝尔特兰似乎都没意识到自己的错误，这种逃避反思的态度令他至今无法释怀。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 插眼事故正规执法与实际失误对比 accDescr: 展示加瑟基遭钱德勒插眼后，标准执法流程与裁判贝尔特兰实际错误操作的对比路径。 subgraph Standard["标准规则流程 (Unified Rules)"] S1["发生意外插眼"] --> S2["裁判果断介入并暂停比赛"] S2 --> S3["明确告知选手享有最多5分钟恢复时间"] S3 --> S4["视情况召入场边医生评估视力"] S4 --> S5["选手完全恢复后恢复比赛"] end subgraph Incident["贝尔特兰实际操作失误"] I1["钱德勒违规插眼"] --> I2["裁判迟疑未及时隔开双方"] I2 --> I3["钱德勒趁机追加重拳命中"] I3 --> I4["裁判仅质问'你还能打吗'"] I4 --> I5["未给恢复时间，仓促重启比赛"] end ``` --- ### [01:40:37](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=6037s) 遭遇小鹰降服时的拍击与赫尔佐格的执念 加瑟基接着分享了另一起令人啼笑皆非的裁判执法轶事。在他与“小鹰”哈比卜·努尔马戈梅多夫（Khabib Nurmagomedov）的轻量级冠军统一战结束后，当值主裁判贾森·赫尔佐格（Jason Herzog）在后台走廊里拦住了加瑟基，非常笃定地对他说：“我知道你……以你的硬骨头，你永远不可能拍地认输（Tap）。”加瑟基当场目瞪口呆，直接回击道：“兄弟，当事人现在就在你面前亲口告诉你：我他妈拍了整整三下！”然而赫尔佐格依旧沉浸在自己的执念中，连连摇头说：“不，你不会认输的。” 加瑟基回忆道，自己被小鹰锁住后确实明确拍击了三下，但赫尔佐格当时没有看到，导致他随后被直接勒晕过去。苏醒后加瑟基跳起来对赫尔佐格说的第一句话就是：“见鬼，我刚刚拍了！”但赫尔佐格在赛后走廊碰面时仍不肯相信。加瑟基苦笑着表示，虽然自己不想公开让赫尔佐格难堪，毕竟裁判的初衷是认可他的坚韧、想多给他一次翻盘的机会，但事实就是裁判看漏了动作。 罗根与加瑟基探讨道，被裸绞或三角绞勒晕（窒息）在医学上其实并不致命，只要裁判没有长时间持续勒住导致脑缺氧死亡，大脑在苏醒后不会像遭受严重脑震荡那样留下慢性创伤性脑病（TBI/CTE）等后遗症。加瑟基幽默地反驳了外界对硬汉形象的盲目神化：“大家都觉得你是什么超人，觉得你怎么能拍地投降？但当你的生命线即将被掐断、你清楚意识到自己快要死掉的那一刻，不认输才是真正的蠢蛋！”他对于赫尔佐格那种“我比你更懂你、认定你绝不会认输”的执拗逻辑感到既无奈又好笑。 ### [01:42:42](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=6162s) 狂暴战风背后的智商偏见与媒体解读 贾斯汀·盖奇（Justin Gaethje）指出，外界长期以来从未给予他在格斗智商与战术思考上应有的评价。人们往往把他看作是一台只懂前冲、没有思考、没有感受的残暴机器，而盖奇本人甚至乐于迎合这种偏见，因为让对手误以为他是一个脑子空空的野兽，反而在心理和战术上成了他的巨大优势。乔·罗根（Joe Rogan）非常赞同这一观点，分析道：公众常常存在一种思维定势，认为一个打法极其凶狠野蛮的选手不可能聪明，因为“聪明人会算计代价，绝不敢像盖奇那样拼命”。罗根直言这种逻辑完全是错误的，就像许多人看到绝色美女就认定对方胸大无脑一样，世人总喜欢把复杂的人强行塞进狭隘的刻板标签里，以求自身心理上的平衡。 盖奇坦言，自己从未立志成为公众人物或演说家。回顾新闻发布会的场景，台下坐着一万两千到一万五千名观众，盖奇甚至私下和身旁的人嘀咕：“兄弟，我从没签过当演讲家的合同，我们到底在这里干什么？”他从未针对面对大批人群演讲做过准备，如今却不得不承受全世界放大镜般的审视——赛前说的每一句话都会被剥茧抽丝般分析。盖奇调侃起自己偶尔出现的口误（比如经典的“my father is my dad”），罗根笑着安慰说连自己这种靠说话谋生的人也会舌头打结。罗根进一步指出，如今的媒体不是因为事情有趣才报道，而是为了生产内容而凭空制造话题，把鸡毛蒜皮的小口误上纲上线炒作成大事件。 - 盖奇认为对手低估自己的智商是一项巨大的战术资产。 - 罗根将对野蛮打法的偏见类比为对美女智商的刻板偏见。 - 盖奇谈到发布会面对 1.2 万至 1.5 万名观众时的不适与口误压力。 - 罗根批评现代内容产业“为了制造内容而无中生有”。 --- ### [01:45:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=6315s) 演讲经验、网络恶评与“选手心中的拳手” 当盖奇谈到如果心理辅导能起作用，他最希望提升的是公开演讲能力时，罗根表示盖奇的表达其实非常出色，这种能力和格斗一样，要么是多经历、多讲几次自然适应，要么就像康纳·麦格雷戈（Conor McGregor）那样具有与生俱来的嘴炮天赋。特雷弗·维特曼（Trevor Wittman）在一旁打趣盖奇像汤姆·佩蒂（Tom Petty），劝他根本没必要在乎别人怎么想。盖奇承认自己偶尔会翻看采访评论，想了解外界对自己的看法，希望能继续激励他人。 罗根对此给出了极其犀利的劝告：完全不要把网络评论当回事。那些在评论区大放厥词的人，在现实生活中往往是你根本不屑与之交谈的愚蠢之辈。“你觉得迈克尔·乔丹（Michael Jordan）会跑去 YouTube 留评论吗？”罗根直言，真正有目标、有自律、生活井井有条且值得尊敬的人根本不会在网上留差评；如果自己在 17 岁时就拥有 YouTube 账号，大概也会成为在网上到处喷人的键盘侠。维特曼则感慨盖奇在现实中的巨大感染力：走在机场里，无论是普通粉丝还是网上的黑粉，一旦真正见到盖奇本人，无一例外都会激动地表示“我是你的铁粉”。盖奇成为了“拳手心目中最喜爱的拳手”，能够激励无数人，这才是最值得骄傲的特质。 - 罗根以迈克尔·乔丹为例，说明真正专注且成功的人绝不会在网上敲键盘留差评。 - 维特曼赞叹盖奇身上拥有极高辨识度的号召力，是当之无愧的“拳手的拳手（favorite fighter's favorite fighter）”。 --- ### [01:47:19](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=6439s) 伤病缠身与退役抉择：骨髓水肿的隐患 罗根询问盖奇在打完比赛五天后，对于是否继续战斗有什么打算。盖奇赛后曾对罗根透露，自己答应过母亲不会在头脑发热时做决定。罗根感慨盖奇刚打出一场精彩绝伦的胜利并成为冠军，此时退役是一段传奇生涯的完美句点，但所有人都期待能再看他打一场。盖奇坦言人们都爱看最高水平的“受控混乱”，但如果不亲自走进八角笼，外人根本无法理解这项运动有多么危险。 盖奇明确表示自己需要休息：在 UFC 过去的职业生涯中，他极少在六个月内连续打两次比赛，而今年不到半年他就已经打了两场硬仗。更关键的是严重的伤病问题：盖奇自去年圣诞节起就一直在忍受严重的腓骨末端骨水肿（severe bone edema in the tip of fibula）。当时他的胫骨末端与股骨发生剧烈撞击，导致骨髓内部深度淤血，经历了整个高强度的备战训练营以及与帕迪·平布莱特（Paddy Pimblett）等高强度对决后，伤处一直无法愈合。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 盖奇腓骨骨髓水肿成因与应对流程 accDescr: 描述盖奇自圣诞节受伤以来的骨水肿成因、恶化过程及尝试过的医疗手段 subgraph Injury["伤病起因与恶化"] A["圣诞节训练碰撞<br/>胫骨撞击股骨"] --> B["腓骨末端骨髓水肿<br/>（Bone Marrow Edema）"] B --> C["连续高强度训练营<br/>与高对抗比赛刺激"] end subgraph Treatment["应对与治疗尝试"] C --> D["拉斯维加斯干细胞注射"] C --> E["PRP 疗法<br/>（导致短期依靠拐杖）"] C --> F["赛前注射可的松止痛"] C --> G["全面停训休养<br/>（让身体自然愈合）"] end ``` - 盖奇在不到六个月的时间里连打了两场比赛，决定在今年剩余时间彻底休整。 - 圣诞节期间遭受严重的腓骨末端骨髓水肿，伤势在备战期间持续恶化。 - 盖奇此前在拉斯维加斯接受过干细胞注射和富血小板血浆（PRP）注射，PRP 治疗后甚至一度严重到依赖拐杖行走，最终在赛前周五打了一针可的松（cortisone）才得以登台。 --- ### [01:49:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=6575s) 崇尚原始的苦修风格 vs. 高科技生物黑客 罗根询问盖奇是否尝试过高压氧舱（Hyperbaric Chamber）等先进恢复手段，并提议在盖奇乘机离开前带他去诊所注射干细胞。盖奇笑着拒绝，直言罗根等人肯定无法理解自己的训练风格有多么“原始”。在整个高强度训练营期间，他大概只做了两次常规按摩。罗根谈起伊利亚·托普里亚（Ilia Topuria）在 YouTube 上展示的高科技训练：头上戴着各种神经刺激装备，使用尖端传感器和生物反馈仪器；盖奇幽默地回应道，网上甚至有恶搞对比视频——一边是托普里亚全副武装进行高科技神经调控，另一边则是盖奇在放松地抽着 420 浓缩物（dab）。 维特曼也笑着揭底两人的“土味训练法”：他们曾在头上绑着狗脖圈进行腿部弯曲训练，一旦腿站直变平就按电击按钮逼其屈膝；或者闭上眼睛互相扔球，美其名曰“激发直觉潜能”。盖奇严肃地表示，自己来自于最底层的泥泞之中（"I come from the dirt"），父母在他四岁时并没有递给他一根高尔夫球杆去培养优雅技能，而是把他直接扔进泥土里摔打。正是这种粗粝的成长经历，让他学会了在极度痛苦与不适中保持坦然自若。罗根对此深信不疑，认为“在不适中寻找舒适”是人生中最为强大的资产，而盖奇也强调，正是自幼练习的摔跤赋予了他应对一切困境的坚韧本能。 - 盖奇整个训练营仅做过两次按摩，极少依赖现代高科技康复设施。 - 罗根对比了托普里亚的高科技神经科学训练与盖奇的硬核原始苦练。 - 维特曼与盖奇回忆用电击脖圈训练屈膝以及闭眼扔球的奇葩训练趣事。 - 盖奇强调自己来自底层泥土，“在不适中保持从容”是他通过摔跤锻造出的最大武器。 ### [01:51:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=6669s) 摔跤与格斗带来的绝对责任感：为何垫子摧毁一切借口 贾斯汀·盖奇（Justin Gaethje）谈到了他在格斗与人生中取得成功的心理根基：在格斗世界里，没有任何人能替你承担后果，所有的赞誉归于你，所有的责难也由你一人背负，你永远无法将失败归咎于他人。盖奇回顾自己年轻时参与过的大量团队运动——橄榄球、棒球、足球，甚至游泳队。他指出，在任何团队运动中，输掉比赛后人们总能轻易找到借口，哪怕只是将 1% 或 2% 的过错推给队友或教练，失败就能被合理化；但在摔跤垫上，这种开脱绝不可能存在。 乔·罗根（Joe Rogan）对此深表赞同，并强调摔跤是初中和高中唯一被主流体制普遍接受的对抗性单人格斗项目。在这个年纪，很多青少年对自己的能力往往抱有不切实际的幻想，自以为与众不同，直到他们在训练垫上遇到真正狠厉的对手——对方比你更努力、更有侵略性、付出更多汗水。罗根绘声绘色地描述道，当你在全班同学面前被对手轻松举起、摔倒并压制，甚至随时被一记过胸摔（Lateral Drop）狠狠砸翻在垫子上时，那种幻想瞬间破灭了。这就是残酷的现实：你要么咬牙蜕变，要么就只能一次又一次被狠狠砸在地上。 特雷弗·威特曼（Trevor Wittman）补充提到，他多年前看过一项研究，表明摔跤手和拳击手往往是职场中最优秀的员工，究其原因就是“绝对的问责制”（Accountability）。摔跤手从小就必须忍受极度不适的训练，在很小年纪就学会自律控重，对自己的体重和表现承担全部责任。这种在肉体磨砺中锤炼出的精神韧性不仅无法否认，也是大批顶尖摔跤手能够转型成为 MMA 综合格斗冠军的最重要基石。 ### [01:53:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=6793s) 父母家教塑造的清醒担当，以及盖奇“反向”看待网络评论的奇特心智 威特曼谈到执教盖奇以及其他顶级选手的最大幸事，就是完全不需要应对那些勾心斗角的情感内耗。当选手对自己百分之百负责时，教练与选手之间就不需要发生委屈或被冒犯的沉重谈话。威特曼将盖奇这种极具担当的品质归功于他的父母。威特曼笑着回忆，盖奇小时候极其多动、爱闯祸，如果自己年轻时和盖奇混在一起绝对会惹出不少麻烦；但盖奇的父母管教极其严格，一旦做错事就会被禁足、受惩罚，这让盖奇自幼深刻明白生活是有规则的，犯了错就必须面对代价。 盖奇随后分享了他看待外界与网络评论的一套极为独特的心态。与绝大多数选择无视恶评的职业运动员不同，盖奇不仅看网络留言，而且极度当真。盖奇解释说，他从小到大对待任何人，无论现实中遇到的陌生人还是网络上的言论，第一反应都是给予“绝对的善意假定”，将每个人都当成值得学习的榜样，甚至像孩子一样保持天真与信任。盖奇坦言：“我知道很多网上留言的可能只是十三四岁的小孩，但在我脑海里，我都把他们当成经验丰富的 50 岁智者，去认真吸纳他们言论中的有用信息。”如果最终发现某个人并不是善意的，盖奇也不会心怀怨恨称对方为坏人，而只是默默决定“下次不再接触”。罗根感叹，面对恶毒的网络环境却完全不会产生心理内耗，盖奇确实是个极为罕见的异类。 ### [01:56:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=6960s) 大学主修人际服务、濒死觉醒与彻底戒除恶习的转折点 盖奇进一步敞开心扉，谈到自己大学主修的是人际服务（Human Services），帮助他人、改善别人的生活、振奋他人的精神是他感到最有生命力的事情，这种对助人的热爱同样源于他的信仰和父母的言传身教。盖奇深情地表示，他的父母是一辈子没做过坏事的淳朴好人，其善良甚至到了在当今社会显得有些“天真”的程度。盖奇坦言生活其实很容易：“当你不再在意别人的眼光，不再为自己无法控制的事情焦虑时，生活就会变得无比轻松。” 在谈到对父母的亏欠与成长转折时，盖奇罕见地袒露了自己的一段黑暗往事。他承认自己年轻时曾犯过严重错误，辜负过父母。在 2016 年左右，他最后一次碰毒品，结果直接在救护车里苏醒过来，他深信自己在那一刻差点丢了性命：“我当时彻底清醒了，我对自己说，我绝不能再碰这该死的东西，我的父母绝不该承受失去儿子的痛苦。”从那场濒死危机之后，盖奇彻底洗心革面，告别一切硬性药物，把全部重心放回格斗与家庭。罗根称赞这种自省与对父母的爱令人动容，盖奇也笑言如今自己的生活爱好只剩下了打高尔夫和抽点大麻，十分纯粹自在。 - **盖奇的人生心法**：不把精力浪费在无法掌控的事物上，不在意旁人的负面审视。 - **关键转折年份**：约 2016 年，盖奇在药物过量送医急救、险些丧命后，出于对父母的责任心毅然彻底戒毒。 ### [01:57:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=7066s) UFC 拳套的致命夹手问题与威特曼专利手套的谈判进展 罗根将话题引向了格斗界长期争论的焦点——装备保护，他质问威特曼：“我们到底要做什么才能把你的专利手套送进 UFC？明明有更好的设计，为什么还要一直用那些劣质手套？”盖奇随即插话，透露了他最近一场比赛（UFC 300 周期）中佩戴的手套与以往有了微妙变化：虽然依然是旧版版型，但皮革变得略厚、质地也更柔软一些。盖奇解释，过去戴常规 UFC 手套打比赛时，手指指缝之间的皮肉会被勒得产生极度剧烈的撕裂痛感，选手在比赛中往往不得不反复往后拉手套舌部以缓解压迫，一旦握拳更会死死勒紧；而这次略厚的皮革反而让手指间隙宽松舒适了许多，彻底摆脱了那种痛不欲生的夹手感。 威特曼紧接着披露了他与 UFC 管理层的最新进展。三四星期前，UFC 首席商务官亨特·坎贝尔（Hunter Campbell）主动联系了他，希望重新开启关于新手套合作的谈判。威特曼解释，双方此前曾签署过保密协议（最初为 5 年期，后调整为 2 年期），UFC 在尝试开发新手套时确实借鉴吸收了威特曼笔记中的大量设计理念，对此威特曼心存感激，也肯定 UFC 试图保护运动员的出发点；但 UFC 自身的生产工艺始终无法将那些概念执行到威特曼所坚持的专业水准。威特曼透露，他在盖奇出战 UFC 300 期间特意将自己研发的全新样品带到了现场，并且已经为全新的设计申请了新专利，准备在知识产权归属和合作模式上与 UFC 探索全新的解决方案。 ### [01:59:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=7190s) 手套专利与插眼问题：舒适度与人类本能的冲突 Trevor Wittman 解释了他为格斗手套开发的新专利。与以往应用在所有 ONX 产品中的内部绑带（internal strapping）专利不同，这项新专利专为比赛拳套（fight glove）进行了深度调校。在前往现场后，经纪人 Ali Abdelaziz 告诉他 UFC 正在发布一款新手套，现在他们手头有了两个版本。Joe Rogan 随即切入核心问题：“你们到底想解决什么？”Wittman 和 Justin Gaethje 坦言大家最常挂在嘴边的是“插眼（eye pokes）”，但 Gaethje 直言完全杜绝插眼是不可能的，只要手指露在外面，你顶多能减少发生率，绝不可能彻底消除。 Gaethje 强调，手套设计真正应该聚焦的是“运动员的舒适度与赛场表现”。现役 UFC 使用的手套手感极其糟糕，选手在里面很难自然握拳，必须动用整条手臂的肌肉死死发力才能攥紧拳头。这导致选手还没真正开打，小臂肌肉就已经精疲力竭，而且手套在指缝间施加的压迫感是日常训练完全无法模拟的折磨。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 手套设计核心考量 accDescr: 对比传统防插眼思路与运动员实际生理需求的差异 subgraph Problem["传统困境"] A["传统设计试图彻底消除插眼"] --> B["限制手部自然伸展"] B --> C["必须持续用力握拳"] C --> D["手臂肌肉提前力竭"] end subgraph Solution["优化方向"] E["顺应手部自然解剖结构"] --> F["放松状态下自动呈微曲握拳"] F --> G["减少向前直戳的插眼反射"] G --> H["保留缠斗触感与爆发力"] end ``` ### [02:01:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=7268s) 连指手套构想的争议：缠斗中的“直觉触感” Joe Rogan 提出了一个激进的设想：能否做成类似连指手套（mitten）的设计，把指尖部位遮盖包裹起来？他认为这能直接减少 80% 的插眼事故。虽然这可能给缠斗选手带来巨大挑战，比如在裸绞（rear naked choke）时手掌插到对手脑后可能会更厚、更卡，但 Rogan 怀疑这和戴普通手套的区别可能没那么大，甚至材质顺滑的话更容易滑进去。 Gaethje 对遮盖指尖的提议表达了强烈反对，认为这会改变这项运动的本质。他解释道，在地面与缠斗中，选手的“直觉反应能力（intuitive abilities）”高度依赖双手的物理触感。当对手向任何方向移动时，手掌和手指的微小触觉反馈能瞬间让选手判断出距离和方位变化。“如果你把这种触感剥夺掉，就会摧毁我们的直觉感知能力。” 更关键的是防守本能。Gaethje 指出，当选手处于放松状态时，手如果能自然保持微曲，插眼就会大幅减少；但现有手套的弹性强行把手指拉得笔直，逼得选手不得不用力去屈指。而一旦遭遇突如其来的打击，人类为了保护面部、把下巴埋进肩膀的下意识防守动作就是伸手推开阻挡，这种根深蒂固的人类生存本能是无法被规则或意念消除的。 - 连指手套虽能大幅减少插眼，但剥夺了缠斗选手的微观空间感知。 - 选手的放松姿势决定了手指的默认指向，强行绷直手套必然增加刺眼风险。 - 防御姿态下的伸臂推阻属于无法根除的人类应激反应。 ### [02:03:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=7410s) Trevor Wittman 的新手套架构：自然弧度与取消绷带的愿景 Gaethje 指出，Wittman 设计的拳套与 UFC 现役拳套最大的差异在于它顺应了手的自然生理结构（promotes a natural hand）。选手戴上后无需费力握拳，骨骼自然对齐，不仅提升了握力与抓握控制，还能以更坚固的拳锋结构增加击倒率，同时显著减少手部骨折。Wittman 甚至提出一个长远目标：希望未来的拳套具有足够的保护力，让赛事彻底取消传统缠手带（hand wraps）。 Wittman 解释，目前的缠手带环节存在巨大的不公平和变量：不同包扎师的手法天差地别，有人加厚衬垫，有人双层贴胶带，导致拳套内部的硬度和防护完全不对等。如果能用手套内置的保护系统实现统一，比赛将更加公平。Gaethje 盛赞 Wittman 的缠手技术堪称艺术品，自己只要由 Wittman 缠手就从未断过手骨，每次称重和赛前检查时他都忍不住向运动委员会炫耀这无懈可击的手法。 - 现役传统 UFC 手套呈完全笔直状态，戴上后需要外力对抗手套张力才能握紧拳头。 - 缠手带的不规范操作使得不同选手拳头的坚硬度与受保护程度存在事实上的不平等。 - 理想的手套内部结构应直接集成护腕与掌骨支撑功能。 ### [02:05:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=7500s) Joe Rogan 试戴新手套：内置绑带与彻底放松的自然闭合 Trevor Wittman 在录音室现场拿出了这款最新的战斗手套样品。Joe Rogan 亲自上手试戴后惊叹不已。他向听众详细描述了手套的外观：普通 UFC 手套平整直立，而 Wittman 的手套在没有穿戴时就已经呈现出弯曲的半握拳弧度，完全贴合人类手掌的自然生理状态。 Wittman 为 Rogan 展示了这套专利内部绑带（internal strapping）的锁紧方式。腕带从侧面贯穿并向内拉紧，侧方配有专属衬垫，防止护垫单独塌陷在单一指节上，将整只手掌严密锁死。Rogan 戴上后彻底放松手部肌肉，发现手掌在零用力的情况下依然维持完美的闭拳姿势。听到 Gaethje 从 2015 年起打沙袋和打靶就彻底不缠手带后，Rogan 忍不住直呼：“UFC 居然到现在还没全面采用这款手套，简直太荒谬了（fucking crazy）。” Wittman 坦言此前在与 UFC 的商业谈判上自己走了弯路（包括 Gaethje 对阵 Khabib 那段时期的接触），过去自己不懂商业运作的各种门道，如今他退居“远见者（visionary）”位置，将谈判交给懂行的人推进，相信 UFC 最终会接纳这项改变。试戴过程中，Rogan 连连挥拳感叹其保护感无与伦比，手指完全无法在里面伸直插人，且食指指节（pointer knuckle）得到了极为充分的防护支撑。 ### [02:07:42](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=7662s) ONX 手套设计与 UFC 新手套的对比 Trevor Wittman 向 Joe Rogan 展示并赠送了专门根据手型尺寸定制的 ONX X-Factor 手套。Joe 试戴后赞不绝口，指出该手套在手掌张开时依然具备出色的抓握能力，便于缠斗与施展绞技，同时指关节敲门处的保护非常坚固。Joe 提到自己向 UFC 总裁 Dana White 以及团队内部多次极力推荐 Trevor 的手套设计，并对 UFC 官方此前的装备决策感到不解：“你们花了无数资金尝试研发新手套，结果用了三个月就草草弃用。” ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: Wittman 装备设计与运动员防护闭环 accDescr: 展现从发现运动员受伤痛点到针对性设计装备并在高强度训练中测试验证的流程。 subgraph Problem["痛点发现"] A["手部骨折 / 头部撞击受伤"] B["缠斗时抓握力与手腕控制不足"] end subgraph Solution["ONX 针对性工程设计"] C["重构指关节保护与受力分散"] D["增强手腕锁定与天然握持弧度"] end subgraph Testing["实战验证"] E["Justin Gaethje 等顶级选手高强度测试"] F["持续微调演进并延长装备寿命"] end Problem --> Solution Solution --> Testing ``` 针对 UFC 当时的研发尝试，Trevor 认为官方虽然投入了大量资金，但雇佣的是专门做橄榄球护具的外部公司，设计团队缺乏对格斗选手的实际理解，导致拿出的产品体验糟糕且无法解决根本问题。Trevor 强调自己的设计哲学始终以“提升运动员表现”为核心——防止拳手因击中对手坚硬头顶导致手骨骨折而沦为单手作战，同时为缠斗选手提供更好的手腕控制力与持久握力。他认为装备的迭代必须通过与一线运动员长期实战测试，在不断权衡利弊中寻找最优解。 - Joe Rogan 直言市面上极少有人愿意真正重新构思并从工程角度重构格斗手套，而 Trevor 的设计达到了顶尖水准。 - Trevor 解释选手若在比赛中手部骨折，不仅毁掉选手的发挥，也会让购买付费转播（PPV）的拳迷失去观赏顶级对决的机会。 --- ### [02:10:25](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=7825s) ONX 装备的高强度测试与创新细节 Joe 热情呼吁观众访问 Trevor 的品牌官网（onxsports.com），并盛赞其生产的手套和护胫是格斗界的行业天花板。Justin Gaethje 自豪地表示自己是全世界最严苛的“装备测试员”，因为他在日常训练中几乎能破坏所有护具，但 ONX 的手套却极其耐用，只有在高负荷训练导致内部发泡填充材料自然磨损时，他才会在大约六个月后更换新的一副。 随后大家谈到了 ONX 装备在细节上的实用巧思。Trevor 为训练包外部设计了专门用于悬挂护胫和护膝的连接扣，让浸透汗水的装备能在包外通风晾干，避免在包内闷坏发臭。话题随即引申到拳馆内部的卫生乱象，众人吐槽许多练习柔术的人不经常清洗道服（Gi），这不仅散发恶臭，还极易在选手之间传染各种顽固的皮肤真菌与细菌（"cooties"）。 - 选手 Cory Sandhagen 的一副 ONX 护胫足足使用了四年，Justin 自己的护胫也扛住了三年每天两到三堂高强度实战训练的蹂躏。 - Trevor 强调格斗装备在反复吸收汗水、受潮与干燥的循环中极易损坏，因此结构设计与外置通风收纳尤为关键。 --- ### [02:12:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=7933s) 历史级的比赛之夜与“冰上奇迹”般的荣耀 Joe 对 Justin 的惊艳表现给予了极高评价，称那场胜利是一场真正的“大师级杰作”（masterpiece），并极力支持他好好休养到年底再考虑下一场战斗。Justin 回忆起现场代表美国出战的心境，表示自己深切体会到了作为这个多元文化熔炉代表的荣誉感，并将这场胜利比作体育史上的“冰上奇迹”（Miracle on Ice），认为自己抓住了创造历史的机遇。 回忆起比赛当晚的宏大场面，Trevor 坦言由于现场名流云集、安保极其森严（甚至有无人机被拦截），他在赛前非常紧张，直到赛后才能真正消化那份震撼。Justin 则展现了典型的战士心态，开玩笑称如果真在八角笼中央遭遇不测反倒成就了传奇。Joe 还分享了当晚与现场观赛的唐纳德·特朗普（Donald Trump）的趣事： > “我对特朗普说：‘真希望我们别死于恐怖袭击。’他回答道：‘人总得有个走法。’” 虽然这句幽默的回答令人发笑，但众人一致认同，当晚以一场完美的经典胜利落幕是最好不过的结局。 --- ### [02:14:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=8041s) 叉角羚狩猎趣闻与千码绝杀神枪 在对谈尾声，话题转向了户外狩猎。Justin 兴致勃勃地聊起近期在 GoHunt 网站上记录的一次叉角羚（Pronghorn Antelope）狩猎经历。他向 Joe 描述了当时极其恶劣的狩猎环境：荒野风力极大，叉角羚视野极其敏锐且不停移动，猎人们完全找不到能够趴下进行卧姿射击（prone position）的稳定地形，只能依靠射击三脚架在风中极其吃力地微调瞄准。 在连番射击脱靶的窘境中，同行的教练 Luke Caudillo 先是在 140 码的近距离射击中意外打飞，但随后在不可思议的 1,093 码（近一公里）超远距离下果断开火，子弹直接精准命中了目标的颈部将其击倒。众人惊叹于这种在近距离失手却在极限千码距离一枪毙命的反差神迹，并展开了关于远距离弹道受风速与下坠影响的热烈探讨。 ### [02:15:11](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=8111s) 叉角羚的史前演化与大草原狩猎策略 乔·罗根与贾斯汀·盖奇（Justin Gaethje）谈到了在大草原上狩猎叉角羚（Pronghorn）的极大难度。开阔平原上呼啸的风偏（wind drift）对弹道影响极强，而叉角羚的视力极为敏锐，不仅能看清数英里外的动静，而且脚步几乎从不停歇。罗根解释道，这种惊人的生存技能源自演化历史——在距今约 11,800 年前的新仙女木事件（Younger Dryas）导致北美洲约 65% 的大型哺乳动物灭绝之前，北美大地上曾栖息着体型远超现代非洲狮的美洲拟狮，以及北美食肉猎豹。叉角羚正是为了从这种致命猎豹口中逃生，才演化出了高达每小时 55 英里（约 88.5 公里）的长距离飞驰能力；它们眼窝深凸、向外突出的巨大眼睛，至今仍保留着鲜明的“史前生物”痕迹。 面对这种几乎无法用常规方式接近的猎物，猎人们开发出了独特的隐蔽战术。盖奇提到诱饵（decoy）对它们能起到奇效；罗根也补充道，许多弓猎手会牵着马匹或利用假牛遮挡身体，躲在牲口身后一步步缓慢靠近，从而在无遮无拦的荒原上逼近到致命射程之内。 - **史前生态背景**：约 11,800 年前北美 65% 哺乳动物大灭绝，包括体型巨大的北美狮与猎豹； - **生理与速度**：叉角羚为逃避猎豹演化出约 55 mph 的极限奔跑速度与极佳视野； - **接近战术**：利用马匹掩护步行靠近或使用特殊假诱饵，是弓箭猎手靠近叉角羚的经典策略。 --- ### [02:16:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=8168s) 弓猎的严苛心结与亚利桑那的“灰灵”白尾鹿 话题随即转向个人的狩猎方式。罗根询问盖奇是否尝试过弓猎，盖奇坦言自己虽然有一把复合弓，但目前只用步枪狩猎。他透露了一段刻骨铭心的经历：他曾用弓射中过一头马鹿（Elk），但最终未能找回猎物；那次未果的搜寻让他立下规矩——除非未来有充裕的时间与精力进行严苛训练，确保自己“100% 准备好完成那一记致命射击（100% ready to make that shot）”，否则绝不再踏足弓猎。罗根对此表示理解，并指出步枪始终是最稳定高效的狩猎工具。 谈及最钟爱的狩猎体验时，盖奇激动地向罗根推荐自己家乡亚利桑那州的库斯白尾鹿（Coues white-tailed deer）狩猎。这种被猎人戏称为“灰灵”（Gray Ghost）的小型鹿种极其擅长在灌木丛中隐身，外人哪怕走遍山头也一无所获，但盖奇从小玩到大的发小们却练就了一双火眼金睛，总能准确锁定它们的身影。盖奇热情邀请罗根日后一同前往亚利桑那体验这项乐趣，罗根也盛赞亚利桑那拥有全美最顶级的马鹿资源。在节目的最后时刻，罗根再次对盖奇与主教练特雷弗·维特曼（Trevor Wittman）致敬，盛赞盖奇周日晚上的比赛是一场载入史册的“绝对杰作（absolute masterpiece）”，甚至堪称综合格斗运动史上最伟大的时刻之一。三人在温馨畅快的笑声中约定退役前再聚一次播客，并在推广完维特曼旗下的拳击手套品牌 ONX Sports（onxsports.com）后正式结束了整期录制。 ## Notable quotes > [01:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=67s) 操，我真的是冠军了。 — Justin Gaethje > [06:59](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=419s) 把一切想得太完美是个致命错误，如果比赛拖入第二回合、第三回合，当战局完全脱离你的预测和设想时，你该何去何从？ — Justin Gaethje > [16:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=962s) 如果你试图通过KO获胜却失败了，那你接下来也不可能通过降服获胜。 — Chael Sonnen > [29:47](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=1787s) 怎么，难道今天就是那一天？今天就是我变成软蛋的日子吗？ — Justin Gaethje > [30:42](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=1842s) 那感觉确实很爽，但我绝不会再去碰它。 — Justin Gaethje > [34:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=2066s) 我不能再白白挨打了。 — Justin Gaethje > [34:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=2066s) 冲刺 50 码、收力慢跑 100 码、再爆发冲刺 50 码 — Trevor Wittman > [01:05:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=3913s) 那真替他高兴 — Justin Gaethje > [01:15:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=4508s) 水是给懦夫喝的 — Justin Gaethje > [01:17:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=4629s) 说我打人像拳套里塞了砖头？这简直是最高的夸奖。 — Justin Gaethje > [01:45:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=6315s) 你觉得迈克尔·乔丹会跑去 YouTube 留评论吗？ — Joe Rogan > [01:40:37](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=6037s) 兄弟，当事人现在就在你面前亲口告诉你：我他妈拍了整整三下！ — Justin Gaethje > [01:40:37](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=6037s) 当你的生命线即将被掐断、你清楚意识到自己快要死掉的那一刻，不认输才是真正的蠢蛋！ — Justin Gaethje > [02:12:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo&t=7933s) 人总得有个走法。 — Donald Trump ## Mentioned Justin Gaethje, Trevor Wittman, Joe Rogan, Ilia Topuria, Islam Makhachev, UFC, WSOF, The Art of Violence, Jai Herbert, Youssef Zalal, Khabib Nurmagomedov, Charles Oliveira, Shane Carwin, Max Holloway, Tony Ferguson, Mike Tyson, Anderson Silva, Merab Dvalishvili, Rafael Fiziev, Rose Namajunas, Carla Esparza, Pat Barry, Eddie Alvarez, Dustin Poirier, Michael Johnson, James Vick, Edson Barboza, Donald Cerrone, Luke Caudillo, Alexander Volkanovski, Paddy Pimblett, Paulo Costa, Kamaru Usman, Leon Edwards, Justin Salas, Tim Means, David Goggins, Arman Tsarukyan, Benoît Saint Denis, Ciryl Gane, Alex Pereira, Michael Chandler, Mike Beltran, Jason Herzog, Hunter Campbell, Ali Abdelaziz, ONX Sports, Cory Sandhagen, Donald Trump ## Video description Joe is joined by UFC Lightweight Champion Justin Gaethje & boxing and MMA trainer Trevor Wittman. https://www.youtube.com/@justin_gaethje https://onxsports.com/ Perplexity: Download the app or ask Perplexity anything at https://pplx.ai/rogan. Get a free welcome kit with your first subscription of AG1 at https://drinkag1.com/joerogan onX Offroad: Try onX Offroad for 50% off- go to https://onXmaps.com/joerogan [Source](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7GEsPQhFo)

[1:07] Justin Gaethje: 操，我真的是冠军了。 [6:59] Justin Gaethje: 把一切想得太完美是个致命错误，如果比赛拖入第二回合、第三回合，当战局完全脱离你的预测和设想时，你该何去何从？ [16:02] Chael Sonnen: 如果你试图通过KO获胜却失败了，那你接下来也不可能通过降服获胜。 [29:47] Justin Gaethje: 怎么，难道今天就是那一天？今天就是我变成软蛋的日子吗？ [30:42] Justin Gaethje: 那感觉确实很爽，但我绝不会再去碰它。 [34:26] Justin Gaethje: 我不能再白白挨打了。 [34:26] Trevor Wittman: 冲刺 50 码、收力慢跑 100 码、再爆发冲刺 50 码 [65:13] Justin Gaethje: 那真替他高兴 [75:08] Justin Gaethje: 水是给懦夫喝的 [77:09] Justin Gaethje: 说我打人像拳套里塞了砖头？这简直是最高的夸奖。 [105:15] Joe Rogan: 你觉得迈克尔·乔丹会跑去 YouTube 留评论吗？ [100:37] Justin Gaethje: 兄弟，当事人现在就在你面前亲口告诉你：我他妈拍了整整三下！ [100:37] Justin Gaethje: 当你的生命线即将被掐断、你清楚意识到自己快要死掉的那一刻，不认输才是真正的蠢蛋！ [132:13] Donald Trump: 人总得有个走法。

[0:01] Justin Gaethje: Wow, I'm the [ __ ] champion. Like, it's [ __ ] crazy. [2:41] Ilia Topuria: I want mint chocolate chip [28:31] Justin Gaethje: Today's the day I become a bitch [75:08] water's for pussies [76:54] Yeah, that was a sweet body shot [86:52] the UFC should make a company and give me equity in that company [90:03] he doesn't get a rematch. He can try, but he doesn't get one. [100:15] from the horse's mouth, I'm telling you, I tapped [100:15] When your life is ending, you know, you're a fool if you don't understand that. Like, I knew I was dying. [102:42] my father is my dad [105:37] your favorite fighter's favorite fighter [123:29] Joe Rogan: You don't even need hand wraps! [132:11] Joe Rogan: I hope we don't die in a terrorist attack, [132:11] Donald Trump: We got to go somehow,

[0:01] Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out. [0:04] >> The Joe Rogan Experience. [0:06] >> TRAIN BY DAY. JOE ROGAN PODCAST BY [0:08] NIGHT. All day. [0:12] >> Gentlemen, first of all, thank you for [0:14] being here. I couldn't wait to talk to [0:15] you. Congratulations on one of the most [0:18] epic accomplishments in the history of [0:19] combat sports. And that's not an [0:21] understatement. I mean, it might be an [0:23] understatement. I may It's not an [0:24] overstatement. It's perfect. That was [0:26] one of the greatest nights I've ever [0:28] experienced of watching anything in my [0:30] life. It was amazing. And to have you [0:33] cap it off and win the title when you're [0:36] facing a guy that everybody thought was [0:38] at least number two pound-for-pound. It [0:40] was like him and Islam or number one and [0:42] number two [0:44] >> and some odds had you at six to one, [0:47] which I thought was very disrespectful. [0:49] I thought I thought like [0:52] this is crazy. Like six to1's crazy. [0:54] Like Ilia is really good, but so is [0:56] Justin. This is kind of nuts. Like the [0:59] to have you win the way you won in front [1:02] of the [ __ ] White House. [1:04] >> Yeah. [1:05] >> How's it feel? [1:07] You know, it's really not real yet. Um, [1:10] I was expecting to have like um an [1:13] internal sense of relief that like I [1:16] don't have something to chase cuz I was [1:18] always chasing this belt and I was [1:20] expecting to wake up with like some kind [1:22] of natural [1:25] release of pressure. But I don't know. I [1:28] I don't feel that. I as the days go by [1:30] every day I feel a little bit more a [1:32] little bit more. Two days ago my dad was [1:34] like, you know, what is what was it like [1:36] waking up being the champion? And I like [1:38] I was like, I haven't even thought about [1:39] that. And then I was, you know, on the [1:42] shitterter like 10 minutes later and I [1:43] was sitting there thinking about it. I [1:44] was like, wow, I'm the [ __ ] champion. [1:48] Like, it's [ __ ] crazy. And yeah, it's [1:51] just I mean, I've just been on the grind [1:54] for so many years now. My dad dropped me [1:56] off 19 years ago in Colorado. I knew [1:59] nobody uh to wrestle. And yeah, to see [2:04] to see where I'm at now is just [2:05] absolutely incredible. I mean, there's [2:06] really no way to explain how or why, you [2:10] know, or like why I deserve it or I [2:12] mean, I've worked my ass off. I have [2:15] made mistakes, you know, I've done [2:16] things the wrong way, but I've always [2:18] corrected and got back on the path. And [2:21] you know, I think the the coaches, the [2:23] mentors, but mostly the coaches that [2:25] I've been, you know, and the team that I [2:27] have around me is is a huge reason why I [2:30] was able to stay on track and and just [2:32] keep keep moving forward and keep [2:34] trusting that, [2:36] you know, I I belong in in the top of [2:39] the league. [2:41] >> Well, you you've clearly shown it [2:42] throughout your career and having a [2:45] great coach like Trevor. And one of the [2:46] reasons why I wanted to bring in Trevor [2:48] is because you guys have a very unique [2:49] relationship. [2:50] >> First of all, I love the YouTube series, [2:52] The Art of Violence. Fantastic. [2:54] >> And what's great is watching you two [2:58] guys work together. And Trevor, you [3:00] being like very acutely aware of when to [3:02] pull them back, when to ramp it up, when [3:05] to push. Like you're you guys having a [3:07] relationship like that is so critical [3:10] because you guys know each other so [3:12] well. You've seen him perform so many [3:14] times. you've seen him fight and perform [3:16] in the gym that you know where he's at [3:18] all the time. And having that sense of [3:22] where your fighter is at any given time [3:24] in camp because you know him so well, [3:26] boy, that's a giant advantage. [3:28] >> It is. Uh [3:30] >> hold on. [3:35] >> Testies. [3:38] >> Yeah, I think uh uh that's a huge [3:39] advantage is is knowing your athlete. [3:41] And uh you know, I been doing this for a [3:43] long period of time, but there's lots of [3:45] coaches out there that consider their [3:46] fighters their friends. I do consider [3:48] them one of my best friends, but I I put [3:50] myself more in like a father position of [3:53] I need to know when to tell them the [3:54] truth. And I've got myself in trouble [3:57] with that uh with fighters where you [3:59] tell them the truth so hard that you [4:01] have to let them go like a child. Like, [4:03] hey, if we we're not in the same [4:04] beliefs, go live life and see how it is. [4:05] And then when you return, I'm still [4:07] going to love you. uh having that type [4:09] of thing where I have to be dead honest [4:11] for your career. Not because it it helps [4:13] us now and it feels good right now at [4:15] the moment. I have to look at that from [4:17] from [4:18] >> the time that we start and we talk about [4:20] you know what are his goals and then my [4:23] job is to be an adviser, be a mentor to [4:27] get him to that place as best as I can [4:29] because these are his goals and I want [4:31] to support those. And in the beginning [4:32] of his career, his goals were to be the [4:34] the the the most violent guy out there, [4:37] the most remembered, the guy that every [4:39] time someone bought a a ticket, they [4:41] remembered Justin Gachi selling that [4:43] show. And uh then it turned into no, I [4:46] want to have this belt. And that was [4:47] hard because we did go and uh not get [4:50] the belt twice. And you you know, it's [4:52] so cool to be in kind of those scenarios [4:54] where it's like, damn, you had two [4:56] opportunities, now it's never going to [4:58] happen. And that's what life is. Life is [5:00] one of those things that you keep [5:02] getting up and chase your goals. You [5:03] never know how it's going to happen. And [5:05] yes, you want to dream and you want to [5:07] have a a a you want to have a plan. But [5:10] I'll tell you right now, through all the [5:12] the times that I've had championship [5:13] fighters in business and in in life, the [5:16] plans never work. You always have to [5:18] adjust them. But it's that dream and [5:20] that vision to get you to the top of the [5:21] stairs. You have to get up each one of [5:23] those steps. So, you know, Justin went [5:25] out there and wrote a story that I don't [5:27] think will ever be forgotten. and he did [5:29] it one round at a time. And that's what [5:30] impresses me because his mindset, I love [5:33] the mental game. I love to to talk about [5:36] the mental game. Even like Ilia, Ilia is [5:38] a special guy with how he uses his [5:40] mental, the secret, the the if I see it, [5:42] I believe it, it'll happen [5:45] to a point, you know? It's like I always [5:48] tell people like if you want if you go [5:49] down the ice cream aisle and you're [5:50] like, "Hey, I don't know what ice cream [5:52] I want." You're going to stand there and [5:53] go, "That one looks good. That one looks [5:54] good. That one looks the people that are [5:55] like, "I want mint chocolate chip." You [5:57] get in there, you get it done. You grab [5:58] that mint chocolate chip and you walk [5:59] out. Very similar to Ilya's last three [6:01] fights. He went out there and he he he [6:04] demanded what he wanted. His confidence [6:06] got him through that. But it makes it [6:08] very hard when you get that stale, nasty [6:10] rotten milk [ __ ] mint chocolate chip [6:12] that you start to go, "Oh [ __ ] what is [6:14] going to happen now?" So, I think uh the [6:16] relationship that we have is me guiding [6:18] him, me pulling him back at the strictly [6:21] situation. Hey, let's pull back a little [6:22] bit. Let's let's focus on what's going [6:24] on. I don't want no distractions. and [6:26] having someone and he trusts that I care [6:29] about him. I I love him to death. I love [6:31] his family. Like our relationship is so [6:33] strong and I need that with my athletes. [6:34] And uh I'm just blessed and [6:38] 100, you know, I say honored, but more [6:40] more importantly humbled by someone who [6:43] I've never worked mental with who shows [6:46] me different ways to the mental game of [6:48] fighting, which I feel I'm very high [6:50] level with. is it's something that if [6:53] you put some put yourself around people [6:54] that make you better this guy makes me [6:57] better daily and I'm very grateful for [6:58] that. [6:59] >> You said something about Ilia about the [7:02] fight about having expectations and you [7:05] said you don't have any expectations [7:07] when you fight that way you don't you [7:09] don't get thrown off. [7:11] >> Yeah. I mean it's I think it's huge. I [7:13] mean my expectations come from my hard [7:16] work. Obviously I expect my body to [7:19] perform. Um, I understand [7:22] that I've trained my mind to and you [7:26] know, maybe the narcissistic tendencies [7:27] in me love [7:29] showing off and performing in front of, [7:33] you know, thousands of people on that [7:35] stage. That's um that's what I love the [7:38] most about about this and that's what my [7:40] personality like I'm very competitive. I [7:42] want to win. Um, but I'm never going to [7:45] lie to myself. And that's how I've got [7:46] I've I've never had a coach in my entire [7:50] career since four years old of wrestling [7:51] have to pull me aside and talk about the [7:54] mental aspect of com competition because [7:58] it's always been so natural to me. I'm [8:00] not sure if [8:02] I'm not sure if it's because they they [8:05] see that I'm doing good and that they [8:08] agree with my approach mentally or they [8:12] don't they don't understand what's going [8:14] on or but I've just always been so [8:16] comfortable and so content with my [8:19] situation of you know this is a [8:22] competition it's a game you know um I'm [8:24] very competitive I'm very petty I take [8:26] everything personal and yeah when I go [8:29] in there with ex when I have gone in [8:31] with expectations. Um, and it's I said [8:35] it before the fight, you know, Alia like [8:38] I I said so many true things to him and [8:40] I think it was such a it's such an asset [8:42] to tell someone the brutal truth, [8:44] especially someone like him because it [8:46] pushes them farther away from the truth. [8:48] you know, he re even if I tell him the [8:50] the exact truth and exactly what's going [8:52] to happen and you know, you're making a [8:54] mistake by having all these expectations [8:56] and when we go to round two and when we [8:57] go to round three and it's not going as [8:59] you predicted it or wanted it to or [9:01] expected it to, then where do you go [9:03] from there? And you know, I said that [9:05] exact thing to him and then that pushed [9:07] him farther away from it and you know, I [9:10] >> it's almost like he wanted to prove you [9:11] wrong. [9:12] >> Yeah. He wanted to prove he wanted to [9:13] prove himself right. Yeah. you know, and [9:15] he was unwilling to be open to opinions [9:19] and because obviously I don't know him. [9:20] He knows him better than himself. But, [9:22] you know, I uh I got here cuz I am [9:25] coachable. I got here cuz I listen. I [9:27] use every every like I I posted [9:29] yesterday, every person, place or thing [9:31] that has happened to me or for me has [9:34] ultimately molded my mind and my body to [9:37] be able to deal with the situation that [9:40] happened on Sunday night. And you know I [9:43] can I can pull so much experience from [9:45] the past. My losses, my wins, um [9:48] setbacks, failures, accomplishments. I [9:51] mean there is so much to learn from it. [9:52] You know, every day is a learning [9:54] experience. And I [9:57] constantly try to learn and be better. [9:58] And I don't know why I'm able to perform [10:03] like that. I think um I just think it's [10:05] who I am, you know. Um, when I when I [10:07] say I wanted to be the most exciting [10:09] fighter ever, it's not that I wanted to [10:11] be the most exciting fighter ever, the [10:13] the thought of that was [ __ ] cool to [10:15] me, you know, but I was just [10:18] being me. And um I've been blessed to be [10:22] able to you know through my through my [10:23] childhood through coming from a small [10:25] town through having um you know [10:30] unwavering support from my my family and [10:32] my friends and my coaches and my [10:34] teachers [10:36] and everybody from you know from it's [10:38] just crazy to to be able to come out on [10:41] top. I mean it's just crazy. [10:44] One of the things I think was a giant [10:46] factor in the fight is that you have [10:48] been in wars. You've been in a bunch of [10:51] wars. Yeah. [10:52] >> And Ilia really had only had some rough [10:54] moments against Jai Herbert. You know, [10:57] Ysef Zalo gave him some problems, but it [11:00] was nothing serious. The the wars that [11:04] you've been in, these just down and [11:06] dirty brawls that you've been in, you [11:10] you're comfortable with the back and [11:12] forth. you're comfortable with enduring. [11:14] You you know that you're not going to [11:16] break. You know, if your body holds up, [11:19] you're going to keep fighting and you [11:20] can endure. I don't think he ever [11:22] experienced that before. [11:23] >> So, when you didn't break in the second [11:26] round and I think he made a mistake and [11:28] I think you're correct about that. You [11:29] said he made a mistake by going to the [11:31] ground. Absolutely. [11:32] >> And that he hurt you to the body. [11:33] >> I told Trevor yesterday I think you know [11:36] um him hurting to my body was the reason [11:39] one of the main reasons I won. You know, [11:42] when he when he hit me, it when I [11:44] dropped, it wasn't the first time he hit [11:45] me in the body. That was probably like [11:46] the fourth or fifth one. And he had [11:48] landed some really clean shots and he [11:49] could probably sense that I was in [11:52] trouble and hurt. And I think that fact [11:56] made him dump everything because it was [11:59] his last chance to take me out. And he [12:01] almost did take me out. But when I went [12:03] down [12:05] in hinds, it's always easy to make these [12:07] decisions in hindsight, but when I went [12:08] down, you know, he would he's had way [12:11] more more submissions than he has [12:13] knockouts. And so for him not to have [12:15] that belief that he's going to be able [12:16] to go down there, especially with the [12:18] Khabib fight, especially with the [12:19] Charles Oliver fight, especially with [12:20] all the negativity around my grappling, [12:23] you know, I think he would have been [12:24] foolish not to cuz I would have stood [12:26] back up. I would have stood back up and [12:28] he would have charged forward trying to [12:30] finish me. I would have jumped on his [12:31] legs. because I would have pulled guard. [12:33] He was going to end up on top of me no [12:34] matter what. I wasn't going to sit there [12:35] and trade with him again. Like I would [12:37] have, you know, front rolled into into [12:39] grappling situations or what I would [12:41] have made him cover me. And but I think [12:45] me getting hit is what made him [12:48] completely blow his, you know, Shane [12:49] Carwesque, [12:50] >> you know, blow his tank. [12:52] >> Yeah. [12:52] >> And, you know, go for the win. And I [12:55] think that was the choice he had to make [12:57] because it was going to continue to get [12:58] worse. I beat his ass in the first [13:00] round. Like, it might have been close on [13:02] the scorecards. I absolutely took the [13:04] first round, but the amount of damage [13:05] that I inflicted in the first round set [13:08] up the rest of the fight. [13:10] >> I I do think it was a mistake. And and [13:12] and you're you're saying what you're [13:13] saying is so correct. But what I'm [13:15] saying is from a standpoint of him [13:17] demanding it, he's going to finish you [13:19] in the first two. Understanding the [13:21] damage that he was taking, he took big [13:23] risks. He got in there. He kept his [13:25] hands on your collar bones. He was [13:26] landing really good shots. Yeah. the the [13:27] the the two body shots before that that [13:30] left hook to deliver that the sound it [13:32] made was crazy. That last one was clean. [13:35] It was precise and deep, but you could [13:38] tell it was already there. But if he [13:40] didn't put that pressure on himself, and [13:41] this is what I mean by mistake is like [13:43] when you come out, you have to know that [13:44] you're going five rounds. And he knew [13:47] that he had to unleash everything right [13:49] there. If if he would have been smart in [13:51] that scenario saying, "Hey, we got five [13:53] rounds. Let me step back a little bit. [13:55] Let me do some damage." But also, he's [13:56] like, "Hey, let me get you out of there [13:58] quick. Justin, you know, can't grapple, [14:00] can't do all these things what a lot of [14:01] people think, which Justin's a great [14:03] grappler." And what was so smart about [14:05] you is when you get tired, that's where [14:09] the worst decisions happen is that's one [14:11] of my big things as coaching is we get [14:13] someone tired and then we make them make [14:14] bad decisions and then then we [14:15] capitalize on that on those mistakes. [14:18] Justin was able to stay so composed here [14:21] with being speared to the body. And when [14:24] you take a liver shot, it is way [14:25] different than the head shot. A head [14:26] shot is like taking a shot with your [14:27] buddies at the bar. It's like, "Hey, [14:29] let's go." You know, but you take a body [14:31] shot, you're dying. Like your liver [14:33] shot, you feel like you're dying. And [14:34] Justin, all the decisions he made on the [14:37] ground from the triangle, from the [14:38] armbar, from not being flat. So many [14:41] good decisions were made in that [14:43] scenario. And I do think it was a [14:45] mistake. Obviously, there's so many [14:47] different ways it could go, but those [14:49] those type of moments in fights are what [14:50] make fights great is overcoming [14:53] obstacles. And he had set that up. He [14:54] had said it. He's like, "Hey, I'm going [14:56] to overcome anything. I'm going out [14:58] there putting the worst thing out there. [14:59] Like, what are you going to do to me? [15:00] I've already been knocked out the last [15:01] second of a freaking huge fight by Max. [15:04] Like, you can't do nothing worse to me." [15:06] And that mindset, I think, is, you know, [15:08] something to take away for all the [15:09] fighters out there that always, I love [15:12] how you say it, expect a war. Always. [15:15] Some of the biggest mistakes that I've [15:17] made with fighters that I had is [15:19] allowing them to think that they're [15:20] going to go through this fight easy, and [15:21] then that fight becomes super hard. You [15:23] think it's going to be a war, then [15:24] you're like, "Hey, it wasn't as bad as I [15:25] was expecting." Even if it was a little [15:26] bit of a war, [15:27] >> they're not going to help them in that [15:28] moment. There's no pulling them out. [15:30] >> That's fighting. Fighting like fighting [15:31] is is mentality. I look at this like [15:33] there's techniques out there and there's [15:34] things like that. What makes this sport [15:36] inspirational and makes someone want to [15:38] go out there and beat cancer because [15:39] they were inspired by a fighter? It's [15:41] not the technical piece. It's getting [15:44] back up. And it's okay to get knocked [15:46] down. I love I love watching people get [15:48] knocked down because my favorite part is [15:49] seeing how they get up. And that to me [15:52] is why I love fighting is how people get [15:55] up. [15:56] >> Yeah. How they endure. And that was the [15:58] big story of that second round that you [16:00] figured out a way to get through it. And [16:02] the change in tempo in the third round [16:04] was very obvious because the sprint that [16:07] you have to make like what Ilia did when [16:09] he was trying to finish you that he he [16:11] used so much [ __ ] energy and the [16:14] great Chail Sunen once said that if you [16:16] try to win by knockout and fail you [16:18] won't win by submission. [16:20] >> Yeah. And a lot of times that's the case [16:21] because you know as good as anybody if [16:24] you [ __ ] sprint it hard you whail in [16:27] the bag with [ __ ] everything you got [16:29] for two minutes and then they go time [16:33] one minute's not enough. [16:34] >> It's not enough. [16:35] >> Even in preparation [16:37] >> even two minutes tired after they did [16:39] that. [16:40] >> That was crazy too. That was crazy too. [16:42] We'll talk about [16:42] >> preparation for these fights. Like I'm [16:44] doing 20 30 40 second sprints at most. I [16:49] mean, that was that was a two-minute [16:51] sprint for him. [16:52] >> Yes. Full out. Full out. Full power. [16:56] Everything. Full power. Every punch. [16:57] Full power. [16:58] >> You can't even train for that. [16:59] >> Can't. You got to have spots, [17:00] >> right? And he didn't. He was just [17:03] unloading. I mean, that's a young man [17:05] with a tremendous amount of confidence [17:07] because he's a two division world [17:08] champion and he thinks he's going to go [17:09] down as the greatest of all time. And [17:11] hey, he might still he might still What [17:14] is he? 28. The odds the odds are [ __ ] [17:17] great against that right now [17:19] >> because of that loss. [17:20] >> I hope he does. [17:21] >> It's I hope he does too. I hope he does [17:23] and I know that he has the skill. [17:25] >> I know that he has the skill to be a [17:28] champion again. However, I same thing [17:31] with Tony Ferguson. I didn't break Tony [17:33] Ferguson's confidence. I changed the [17:36] perception of his opponents of him. And [17:41] that is a huge factor when you go in [17:43] there. Like who are you fighting? What [17:44] do you figure? You know, before this, he [17:46] was a guy that would that you couldn't [17:48] get through, that you couldn't push [17:50] through, you couldn't survive with. And [17:52] once I showed people that all you got to [17:54] do is get through that, then nobody's [17:57] ever going to go in there with thinking [17:58] that he's unbeatable now, [18:00] >> you know, and that that was his that was [18:03] his [18:04] identity. And, you know, that's going to [18:07] be such a tough task for him to fight [18:09] people that aren't scared of him. [18:12] >> That's interesting. That's Mike Tyson in [18:14] his prime. That's Anderson Silva in his [18:16] prime where the fight was lost before [18:18] got in there. Yeah. [18:20] >> The fight was lost before he got even [18:21] got in there. Um physically, uh now I [18:25] don't know what the truth is, but all [18:27] these reports are that he has two [18:29] fractured orbitals and a broken nose. [18:33] Um, just that alone, just the orbitals [18:36] alone, like anytime you've got eye [18:37] injuries, like anything severe with your [18:39] eyes, long-term consequences vary, you [18:43] know, [18:43] >> it's psychological. [18:44] >> Absolutely. And your body heals and [18:46] physical. The body is resilient. I'm [18:49] telling you, I [18:49] >> broken bones make stronger bones. Like [18:51] that is his his his orbital bones will [18:54] be stronger. It depends on where though [18:56] Justin the orbital bone I had my orbital [18:58] broken and [19:00] >> for 6 months I would do this and my [19:02] tooth would move and it's right where my [19:03] sinus cavity is. You remember when you [19:05] hit me with a spinning elbow? [19:06] >> Your tooth would move when you push your [19:08] cheek [19:08] >> and my tooth would move. [19:10] >> Oh, summer is great but it also comes [19:12] with a lot of chaos travel and [19:14] spontaneous plans. So make sure you're [19:17] taking extra care of yourself with AG1. [19:20] It's a simple daily health drink that [19:22] replaces your daily multivitamins, [19:25] probiotics, prebiotics, adaptogens, and [19:28] more. Plus, AG1's ingredients are [19:30] sourced from quality partners for [19:33] potency, purity, and nutrient density. [19:36] AG1 is clinically shown to close common [19:39] nutrient gaps and support gut health to [19:42] keep you going all summer long. Wherever [19:45] this summer takes you, stay on top of [19:47] your health with AG1. Visit [19:49] drinkagg1.com/joan [19:52] and for a limited time get a free [19:55] morning person hat and an AG1 flavor [19:58] sampler for free in your welcome kit [20:01] with your first subscription. That's [20:03] drinkagg.com/joen. [20:06] >> I still feel the soft spot, but this is [20:08] a very weak area where your sinus cavity [20:10] is. That's a And you you broke both [20:12] orbitals and the nose. Like I do believe [20:14] the body is you ever seen Rob's nose? [20:17] You ever seen the X-ray of Morab's nose? [20:19] No. [20:20] >> Did I send it to you? [20:21] >> It looks like a spine cuz it's been [20:23] broke. Dude, [20:24] >> you've got 33 vertebrae. [20:26] >> It's literally [ __ ] crazy. [20:28] >> I've had three broken noses. I've had it [20:30] fixed twice. [20:32] >> Yeah, I know. You had it fixed. You [20:34] know, this is one. There it is. That's [20:36] Morab's nose. [20:38] >> Oh my god. [20:39] >> Oh my god. [20:41] >> I mean, that's that looks like a long [20:43] cocaine binge right there. It took out [20:45] the whole [ __ ] left side of his nose. [20:46] Looks like he got hit with a [20:47] sledgehammer. I mean, that nose is [20:50] crazy. [20:50] >> That is crazy. [20:51] >> That is like And to fix it, he's going [20:54] to have to have no contact for like a [20:56] year. [20:56] >> Yeah, that's [20:57] >> And so, he's not going to fix it. He's [20:58] just going to deal. Look how turned it [21:00] is. Like, that the bone [21:02] >> I've had my eyes fixed and my nose fixed [21:04] and my nose was better for for quality [21:07] of life. [21:08] >> Obviously, being able to see was huge, [21:10] but when your nose is broken, like you [21:13] have to understand like getting a [21:14] haircut [ __ ] sucks. You can't breathe [21:16] through your nose, your mouth open the [21:18] whole time. You're constantly breathing [21:19] in [ __ ] hair. [21:21] >> Like there's there's so much they can't [21:24] use the [ __ ] thing you're choking. [21:25] >> Every time you eat food, like you just [21:28] there's something missing. [21:29] >> Yeah. [21:29] >> Uh sleep. I wore a nose strip to bed for [21:32] 10 years now, [21:33] >> you know? Now you [21:34] >> used to have a scab, a permanent scab [21:35] because I peeled that thing off all the [21:37] time. [21:37] >> Yeah, my nose are used to it now. But [21:39] yeah, when you got it fixed was insane. [21:42] >> Uh, when you got it fixed, which fight [21:44] was it before the Max fight? [21:46] >> Yeah, right before the Max fight [21:47] >> and then you could breathe out of it [21:49] perfectly. [21:49] >> Yeah. [21:50] >> Is it still good now? [21:51] >> Yeah, he he broke it, but he didn't [21:53] break he didn't [ __ ] with the cartilage. [21:54] He broke he actually fractured the bone [21:56] up top so I didn't have to get a fix. [21:58] It's another factor that we when we were [22:00] talking about the fight and you know [22:02] people were talking about um this [22:04] matchup with Ilia I said you have to [22:07] think about what he did to Phys. Phys is [22:10] a super talented striker and then you [22:12] also have to think about the Max [22:14] Holloway fight because he was pressing [22:15] in the first round but he got caught [22:17] with a jump spinning back kick to the [22:18] [ __ ] face. And when that was that's a [22:21] that's a game changer and it happened at [22:24] the end of the first round and from that [22:26] it changed the tone of the fight because [22:28] it was just dead on. It was perfect. [22:30] Couldn't have landed any better. And [22:32] >> the truth of the matter is is [22:33] psychologically I was not I was not [22:36] there. I was not prepared mentally for [22:39] the fight when I fought Max Holloway. It [22:41] was such a different circumstance. It [22:42] was you know a guy that wasn't in my [22:44] weight class. It was a guy that I had [22:46] never thought about fighting. Um, it was [22:48] for fun and that whole the whole [22:52] experience was so different than any [22:54] other fight I've ever had when it comes [22:56] to like being mentally prepared for for [22:58] a fight. [22:59] >> What do you attribute that to? Like what [23:01] >> myself my my [23:03] >> and us like we took we we told him to [23:05] take the fight. He didn't want he didn't [23:06] want to take the fight and we told him [23:08] that you're going to keep the the title [23:09] contention fight because that's what [23:11] they promised us. That's why he was very [23:12] in very [23:13] >> Well, every one of you guys every one of [23:15] you was like oh something was different. [23:16] It was like, "Well, why didn't you guys [23:17] [ __ ] say something?" [23:18] >> Well, you told you told me tell me after [23:20] the fight like something was different, [23:22] but like I needed to know. [23:23] >> He tells me after [23:25] >> he's like this. He's like, "I just [23:26] didn't respect him." And I'm like, "How [23:28] could you not respect Max?" And I didn't [23:29] catch on to it. So, it's like I'm always [23:30] looking for flags and things like that. [23:32] And 100% I take 100% responsibility [23:35] because that's how we learn. Everybody [23:36] makes mistakes. I remember the Tony [23:38] Ferguson fight. I didn't give any [23:39] [ __ ] water, you know? Like there's [23:41] like things that we all learn from. But [23:43] the thing when he had told me that I'm [23:44] like how did I not catch that uh from [23:47] you cuz he's like dude he was a smaller [23:48] guy just didn't and and I was like dude [23:50] Max is like one of the guys that I look [23:53] up to from the outside like he is [23:54] talented. [23:55] >> I remember thinking what what am I [23:57] looking for? Like what am I afraid of? I [24:00] kept trying to convince myself that I [24:01] need to be I need to find what I was to [24:04] be worried about and I couldn't find it. [24:07] >> So you always need that before a fight. [24:09] >> Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. no matter who it [24:11] is, you're fighting, [24:12] >> you know? [24:13] >> Yeah. And so, like, I was I've never [24:15] been as present and like um [24:18] >> I've never been able to retain a fight [24:20] and I, you know, before the knockout, I [24:22] I was there like I was I was in the I [24:24] was in the in the arena. I saw the [24:28] lights. I saw the people. I heard the [24:29] people. Like, I've never been there in [24:31] my life. And I think that I can [24:33] attribute that to me not being scared [24:36] and so me not, you know, me not being in [24:38] a real fight or flight, [24:41] >> real life or death situation. So you [24:44] weren't fully focused. You could [24:45] actually hear the crowd. [24:46] >> Yeah. [24:47] >> I could I could hear my thoughts, you [24:49] know? I had thoughts. I've never had [24:51] thoughts in a fight because I'm so [24:53] intuitive and reactionary. And that one [24:55] was just so dear. There was so much. And [24:58] so sure, the kicks, the eye pokes. No, I [25:00] think I was not I couldn't have beat him [25:03] that night with the mentality that I had [25:06] >> and that was my last lesson to learn. [25:09] >> I I had made my less, you know, my [25:11] lessons with um Olive Vera was like I [25:14] wanted it so much. [25:16] >> I wanted it so bad and I wanted to [25:18] perform and I wanted to impress uh my [25:20] fans. You know, Rose had a fight that [25:23] night and she fought like absolute [25:24] garbage and I, you know, and I told my [25:27] coach, I said, "Coach, don't worry. I I [25:29] I won't do that to you. [25:30] >> He said that right before about [25:32] >> right before we're about to walk. I was [25:33] like, "Don't worry, coach. I never let [25:34] you down like that." [25:35] >> And coach is pissed and everyone's, you [25:37] know, my the locker room's all [ __ ] up [25:39] cuz Pat's [ __ ] weird. [25:40] >> Is that the Carlos Sparza fight? Was [25:42] that the same night? [25:43] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I was at home and [25:44] so there was just and that was again [25:46] that was my fault. I allowed those [25:48] things to affect me, [25:49] >> right? [25:49] >> And to, you know, um affect my fighting [25:54] decisions rather than just being myself. [25:58] Um, and so that was a huge mistake. Um, [26:01] another mistake was, [26:06] uh, you know, winning two or three times [26:07] in a row and just kind of becoming [26:10] complacent with how serious what we do [26:13] is and how dangerous this game is and [26:15] how much luck and chance are a factor [26:17] every single night. And so, you know, I [26:21] wasn't doing the extra credit. I wasn't [26:23] sitting in the sauna at home, you know, [26:25] and I don't know. I don't know why. It's [26:27] just and then I made that mistake um [26:30] probably into the Eddie Alvarez Dustin [26:32] Porier fights, lost and then I won three [26:35] or four in a row and then I completely [26:36] went back to the same mindset of I'm the [26:39] best in the world. Nobody can beat me [26:41] and I paid for it. And those two [26:44] mistakes were huge, very very big [26:45] learning lessons. And then the uh the [26:49] Charles Oliver fight, you know, I was [26:51] like I wanted it so bad and then I made [26:53] the moment so much bigger than it [26:54] actually was because it's just 25 [26:57] minutes in time and I it's all I can [27:00] control is being perfect. My preparation [27:01] for it, but then ultimately being there [27:04] for 25 minutes and being perfect. And [27:06] yeah, those are the mistakes that I [27:08] made. I had to learn. I had to make [27:09] those mistakes. I would not change [27:11] anything about my career. I think the [27:12] farther back into my career you go, the [27:14] more special this moment is. And you [27:17] know, I think um in time again I I've [27:20] this is going to age like my my career [27:21] is something special. The way that I did [27:24] it, the way that I that I lost, the way [27:26] that I stayed on track, the way that I, [27:28] you know, threatened retirement if I [27:30] wasn't going to get a title champ, a [27:32] title shot, um the way I called my shots [27:35] along the way, then the the discipline I [27:37] had, I mean, it's second to none. I've [27:41] watched this sport my whole life since [27:43] 1992. my dad showed me. I remember as a [27:45] four-year-old seeing it. I don't have a [27:47] lot of, you know, [27:50] great memories. I I remember my [27:51] childhood, but it's not like you have [27:52] specifics, but I remember seeing it for [27:55] my first time in my dad's bedroom. We [27:58] were sitting there watching it together [27:59] and I was and I was enthralled. I was [28:01] like, "This is this is amazing. I love [28:03] this shit." [28:04] >> Can you picture that? Him with like a [28:05] baby bottle just squeezing it. [28:08] >> Yeah. And I was like, [28:10] and then I watched it and then I was a [28:12] diehard fan. I've been a dieh hard fan [28:14] ever since then and especially in 2001 [28:16] when it came along I was you know [28:18] probably in seventh or eighth grade [28:19] sixth or seventh grade and just fell in [28:21] love with it and then you know me and [28:22] call going into college we'd go and sit [28:24] at Buffalo Wild Wow Wings for six seven [28:26] eight hours spend $5 those poor service [28:29] people [28:31] >> it's just amazing that you've been able [28:33] to keep this ferocious mentality for so [28:36] long because I remember when you first [28:38] entered into the UFC the Michael Johnson [28:40] fight I was so pumped for it cuz I was [28:43] Get ready cuz this is going to be [28:44] [ __ ] wild. Cuz I had been a fan of [28:45] yours when you were fighting in what was [28:46] it? World Series of Fighting [28:48] >> and then uh that Michael Johnson fight [28:50] was everything that I thought it would [28:51] be. [ __ ] crazy. Just a wild ass [28:54] fight. [28:54] >> Crazy coming out party. [28:55] >> Dude, I giggled so many times in that [28:57] fight. Dude, when you went against the [28:59] cage and you were like this, you like [29:00] look back and you were like, "Oh, I'm [29:02] looking for the shot." And you're like, [29:03] "Block it off the thing." And then you [29:05] come back with the right hook and then [29:06] you let him back in again and you hit [29:07] him with the right hook again off the [29:08] cage. Dude, there's so many giggle [29:10] sessions in there. Uh, I wasn't nervous [29:12] because just again that's the way he [29:13] fights and I'm like he's no one's gonna [29:15] forget this fight. [29:15] >> Michael Johnson was swinging and caught [29:18] him with that left hand a few times. [29:20] >> Well, that's the same left hand he [29:22] knocked out Dustin with. [29:22] >> His left hand is so fast. [29:25] >> And Michael has power. [29:26] >> Yeah, he does. [29:27] >> Yeah, dude. And and he was trying to [29:30] win. I mean, he was going all out that [29:33] you guys just emptied out in that fight. [29:35] It was fantastic. And I was like, there [29:37] it is. the the three rounder to get off [29:39] the the back flip. Took three rounds. He [29:42] got up there, fell off. Got up there, [29:43] fell off. I was like, "You can do it. [29:45] You I'm out there motivating." I [29:47] >> always get so scared for your knees when [29:49] you do that. I'm like, "Please don't [29:50] hurt your knees after you won the [29:51] title." [29:52] >> I'm 100% baby. Yeah. [29:54] >> We're training for Kabib. We're over at [29:56] high altitude. He's doing back flips off [29:58] the off the the cage. And I was like, [30:01] "Stop. Do this after the fight." [30:03] >> Yeah. He's like, "Hey, no more back." I [30:05] was like, "Today, today's the day. [30:07] Today's the day I become a bitch." Like, [30:10] "Today the day." [30:10] >> I'll never forget that moment. I was [30:12] like, "You know what?" [30:12] >> I turned my head. I was like, "Stop." [30:14] Go. Go ahead. [30:15] >> That is kind of true, right? When when [30:17] you get something and all of a sudden [30:19] you're special. Then you start [30:21] protecting it and then you won't be [30:22] special anymore. [30:24] >> What makes I told him I was like, "So [30:26] today today is the day, huh? [30:27] >> He's [ __ ] crazy." Like I never want [30:29] him to stop being [ __ ] crazy. Like [30:31] everything about him in life when you [30:33] play golf with him, he's the highlight. [30:35] He does [ __ ] that like you'll never [30:37] [ __ ] see. Like it's like everything [30:38] you do is the highlight. Like his life [30:40] is like his fighting. He's [ __ ] wild. [30:42] >> So your mentality, you've never had to [30:45] work on I mean obviously you've learned [30:46] lessons along the way, but you've never [30:48] had to like sit down and work on this [30:51] mindset. It's always been something you [30:53] inherently possessed. [30:54] >> Yeah. Yeah. I think um [30:56] >> it's crazy. I think I think people just [30:59] complicate things so much. Like when you [31:01] can truly [31:03] >> understand that there's there's there is [31:05] things you can't control, but it's not [31:07] everything. [31:08] >> You can only control what's inside of [31:09] you. You know, you can only control how [31:11] you perceive things, how you react to [31:13] things, [31:14] >> the work you put in, [31:15] >> the the obviously the preparation. [31:17] >> Yeah. But it's um I mean there's so [31:19] much, you know, and I I guess I always [31:23] knew that something was coming because [31:27] no matter how far off the the road, you [31:30] know, like I've made mistakes, you know, [31:34] I've [31:35] done I was never an al thank God I was [31:38] never an alcoholic and never but I was I [31:40] could say I was I was probably a drug [31:42] addict at you know one time in my life. [31:44] And [31:45] >> what drugs? [31:48] >> I don't know. I have never told my [31:49] parents about this, so I don't know. [31:51] >> You don't have to. [31:51] >> All of them. All of them. I want So, but [31:54] it's going to can and and I know this is [31:56] going to sound stupid, but so I went to [31:57] school for human services. I wanted to [31:59] help people. [32:01] A big part of that is helping people [32:02] come off drugs. And I lost many over a [32:06] handful of friends, really close friends [32:08] from drugs where I come from. We're not [32:10] far from Mexico. And we had the best we [32:12] had the best [ __ ] coming right across [32:15] the border before it ever got cut up. [32:18] And it was um it was my life, you know, [32:22] where I'm from is very boring. And so [32:23] like you chase again, you know, we have [32:25] it so good in this country. We're always [32:27] trying to create chaos in order to feel [32:29] something. And I guess that's what I was [32:31] probably doing. [32:34] And in college is when I really, you [32:36] know, I was like, I if I'm going to help [32:37] people come off of drugs, then how can I [32:40] ever even try to [32:44] understand if I don't know what they're [32:45] chasing? And so that was a part of it. [32:49] you know also a part was it felt good [32:52] you know and so [32:55] you know once I did [32:58] uh certain things I knew what people [33:01] were chasing but then I always knew that [33:03] something was bigger for me and better [33:04] for me and I had something to do and so [33:07] that was always it was never a a crutch [33:09] for me I was always like that was [33:10] awesome you know I'm not doing it again [33:13] >> what is it in your head that where you [33:15] always knew that you had something [33:16] bigger [33:18] >> uh Uh, well, probably my faith. I mean, [33:21] I I I've been my my parents, the best [33:24] thing they ever did for me was make me [33:26] go to church every single Sunday and [33:29] create a relationship with with God [33:32] through the word of Jesus Christ and [33:36] just trying to live up to those [33:38] expectations. [33:39] Um, I knew, not that I was going to be a [33:42] champion or anything, I just knew that [33:45] I couldn't take the easy way out, you [33:48] know. um when you're on drugs or when [33:51] you're when you're living a lifestyle [33:52] like that, then nobody expects anything [33:54] from you. Nobody wants anything from [33:55] you. And that's an easy way to live. You [33:58] know, those uh [34:00] >> right, [34:00] >> there's no pressure. [34:01] >> No expectations. [34:02] >> No expectations. No pressure. And I [34:04] mean, it really is I can understand how [34:08] you can let that overcome the the [34:10] passion to live, you know, and um I [34:14] don't know. I just think the passion to [34:16] live because of my faith has never [34:19] outweighed [34:20] my [34:23] desire to feel good. [34:26] >> I want to talk about the shift that you [34:28] made in your career from being the most [34:30] exciting guy in the world, wanting to be [34:33] the most exciting guy in the world, [34:34] being happy with performing to the best [34:36] of your ability, whether you win or [34:38] lose, to wanting to get the belt. What [34:41] what was what what started that [34:44] decision? [34:46] >> It's weird because I don't remember a [34:50] time or a day where I made a change [34:53] other than [34:55] I'm not going to get hit. You know, in [34:57] the Dustin Porier fight and the Eddie [34:59] Alvarez fight, I I absolutely almost [35:02] broke them. [35:04] And it was no different than any of my [35:06] other fights. Nobody had just ever Same [35:08] with Elia, you know, like nobody had [35:10] ever got past it. Nobody had ever been [35:11] able to withstand the ferocity of my [35:15] actions for two or three rounds and then [35:17] those guys did [35:19] and [35:21] I was like, what happened? You know, and [35:24] ultimately I put myself in a position [35:26] and I got hit with a shot that [35:29] um took me out of the fight. And so [35:33] after those fights, I was like, I have [35:35] to not take these shots. And that was [35:39] ultimately all I can say that I that I [35:42] changed mentally is I'm going to I don't [35:44] want to get hit. I used to never care [35:46] about getting hit cuz it's like doesn't [35:48] hurt. Nothing hurts in there. You don't [35:50] feel nothing. It's never hurt. And so [35:53] that was really just the mindset. I just [35:55] need to not let them get me in a [35:58] predicament where I'm not able to where [36:01] they have to stop the fight. So the [36:02] shift uh [36:03] >> but he he probably from the outside [36:05] outside torsion. [36:06] >> Yeah, it's it's definitely there there [36:08] was a shift and it wasn't just like an [36:09] instant shift. It was the two losses in [36:12] a row with Eddie and Porier uh where [36:15] he's like I'm winning these fights and I [36:17] need to be able to get to the distance [36:19] and I was like all right we got to [36:20] become a spot fighter cuz you just drown [36:22] people and you're what's happening is [36:24] you're making mistakes. We threw a low [36:25] kick against poor he got caught because [36:27] he based back lazy with his shoulders [36:29] above his his hips. So, I was like, "All [36:31] right, let's be sharp. Let's fight in [36:33] spots." Then he goes on a three-ight win [36:35] streak where he's finding the right [36:36] spots and putting people out from from [36:38] Vic to uh uh Barbosa into Cowboy [36:41] Cerrone. And that's where he's like, and [36:44] then I I sat down with him and I was [36:45] like, "Do you want to be a champion?" [36:47] And I was like, "This is how you have to [36:49] fight to be a champion is be smart." And [36:52] he never said he he never said he didn't [36:54] want to be the most excited fighter in [36:55] the world. He would tell me after [36:57] fights, he's like, "I'm not even trying [36:58] to fight excited, but look at me." And [37:00] it's like [ __ ] like it's so amazing. [37:02] Like it's in him. It's just how do we [37:04] how do we get you to sprint 50 yards, [37:07] pull back for 100 yards, and jog and [37:09] then sprint for 50 yards and like be [37:10] able to know your your your your red [37:12] line. Don't don't cross over that red [37:14] line. Don't hold red line. [37:15] >> Well, that that is again the experience [37:17] that you found in wars. It's such was so [37:19] critical in the White House. [37:21] >> Yeah. You don't want to make mistakes [37:22] >> and it is I think it's crazy. I think um [37:25] again the fact that they said that he [37:26] had out struck me in the first round 39 [37:28] to 32 or something. [37:29] >> You landed some hard jabs in that. [37:32] >> Yeah, there's yours were devastating. [37:34] >> He might have touched and [37:35] >> but I'm talking about the perception. [37:39] >> It looks like I'm getting hit. It looks [37:41] like it's but I mean my I don't have [37:43] special skin. I am able to see punches [37:48] >> and [37:49] >> and roll with them [37:49] >> and roll with punches. If you watch my, [37:51] you know, fights frame by frame, I'm not [37:54] getting hit for the most part. [37:55] >> You're moving with the punches. [37:57] >> Yeah. Yeah. It's be like water. Like I'm [37:59] I'm constantly, [38:01] >> you know, and and intuitively making [38:03] these [38:05] >> calculations. [38:06] >> That's the scoring that when you see [38:08] that and I don't know who's counting [38:10] that, but that's like amateur boxing. [38:11] Amateur boxing. If the white glove [38:13] touches you in the face, even if it's [38:14] not a clean blow, that's considered [38:16] that's how you judge. [38:17] >> Yes. And that that's where Justin I [38:19] think where you look at it from a point [38:21] system. You can't just look at the the [38:23] screen and that's why you know judges [38:25] can't look at a screen and go oh this [38:27] guy landed more. This is who won. You [38:29] had the damaging blows. I think [38:30] everybody knows that. Like I get it. [38:32] Like I see the way you roll a shot. I [38:34] see the way that you fade off and allow [38:36] the shot not to go through your skull [38:38] >> and deflect it. You're it still gets [38:40] touched to you. So it's considered that [38:41] they landed that shot. But the damage is [38:43] like what you do to people by the way [38:46] that you hip through that you drive [38:48] through people is so different. Like [38:49] like Justin hits unlike any he still I [38:53] still think to this day we got to ask [38:54] the UFC. But they did a test on him to [38:56] see who has the hardest bones in the [38:57] UFC. He he had the hardest bone dude. He [38:59] kicks me and I'm just like dude I I'm so [39:01] glad I feel so bad for Luke. [39:02] >> He didn't let he don't let me kick God. [39:04] Dude, Luke Cadill [39:07] on. He has his pad on. I kick him and [39:09] his his nuts swell up. [39:10] >> Dude, I get blue balls, bro. And so I [39:12] can't there's a nerve on the inside of [39:13] your leg. I talked to a doctor about it [39:15] cuz I'm like bro like he kicks people [39:16] and they bruise on the inside of their [39:17] leg and it's cuz the shock through but [39:19] there's a nerve on the inside of the [39:20] leg. I'd go home and I'd tell my wife [39:22] I'm like babe I got [ __ ] blue balls. [39:24] She's like from who? And I'm like [39:25] Justin. She looks at me like [39:28] >> the [ __ ] you got blue balls from Justin [39:29] for? [39:30] >> One of the things you were doing early [39:31] in your career that I always thought was [39:32] so wild was you were leg kicking people [39:34] from a collar tie. [39:36] >> Like you were a leg kick guy. I was like [39:37] oh my goodness. Like how come no one's [39:40] doing that? like you were one of the [39:42] only guys that I saw that was doing that [39:43] that was from the clinch was leg [39:45] kicking. [39:46] >> You've got some [ __ ] flexible hips, [39:48] man. Because the way you were able to do [39:50] that from like right in tight like this [39:52] and then and not just throw the leg out. [39:55] You're whipping into it. [39:56] >> Yeah. He he pulls them to their lead [39:58] leg. So, he's making a base on that knee [39:59] and then it's just like you got a stump [40:01] in the ground. You're just trying to [40:02] bend that tree, [40:03] >> you know? And man, he's very good at Let [40:05] me tell you something about Luke cuz I [40:06] got into the octagon at right after you [40:08] won and Luke and I looked at each other. [40:11] He was like [40:13] dude like dude [40:15] >> Joe was so he's like Joe was so pumped. [40:17] He hugged me so hard. [40:18] >> He was so happy. He was it was amazing [40:21] cuz seeing all those videos and knowing [40:23] he's in camp with you all the time and [40:25] knowing how much he loves you. Watching [40:27] the happiness that he had when you won [40:29] was [ __ ] incredible. [40:30] >> No, Luke is one of my really really good [40:32] friends. He [40:32] >> pukes every time before a fight. every [40:34] time [40:34] >> before Trevor was in my corner, Luke [40:36] cornered me, he used to go uh to Arizona [40:38] with me. I had no coaches. [40:40] >> I would just do it in between, you know, [40:41] in between wrestling seasons and yeah, [40:43] he would go down there with me and just [40:45] wrap my hands and he would just be [40:46] there. [40:47] >> Wow. He's amazing. One of the best human [40:48] beings on earth. [40:49] >> Yeah, I love that, man. [40:50] >> Hey, can you tell them about the the the [40:52] Sunday? So, the Sunday before [40:54] >> the fight. [ __ ] So, so there was one [40:56] time, I think it was in the the cowboy [40:58] fight where you were you were pummeling [41:00] with Ben [41:01] >> and he'd finish with a low kick on Ben [41:03] every time and I'm like, "Stop kicking [41:04] your coach." And he looks at me, he's [41:05] like he's like, "Trevor," he used to [41:07] drag me back on the mats. He's like, [41:08] "I'm going to kick." I was like, "Just [41:11] give me this [ __ ] give me this [41:12] opportunity to beat his ass." [41:13] >> So, we go golfing, Joe. And I'm [41:15] >> Sunday we go golfing the Sunday before [41:17] the fight. We get there Saturday. We go [41:19] golfing Sunday. And, you know, it's a [41:21] Sunday. We never work out on Sundays. [41:23] and Trevor, not Trevor, Luke and Ben got [41:27] [ __ ] pickled [41:28] >> on the golf course. They they each had [41:29] like three very very very stiff um [41:33] >> uh [41:34] >> Bloody Mary's Luke bought like 12 beers [41:37] cuz we got there and they're like, "Hey, [41:38] everything's on the president." And he's [41:40] like, "Fuck yeah, I've never heard that [41:41] before. Everything's on the president. [41:43] I'm going to drink." And so like whole [41:45] 10 or 11, Trevor's like, "Let's [ __ ] [41:46] with them. Let's tell them that we're [41:47] going to work out later." So, [41:48] >> well, we're going to work out, but I'm [41:49] telling they're they're going to be the [41:51] workout. I didn't know we were working [41:52] out. Put it this I had no [ __ ] out [41:54] Sunday. We're definitely working. [41:55] >> I thought he was [ __ ] with me. We're [41:56] out there golfing. It's hot as [ __ ] I'm [41:58] sweating my ass off. I had no idea we [42:00] were working out that day. And he's [42:01] like, "Let's [ __ ] with him. Let's tell [42:02] him that we're going to work out." I was [42:03] like, "All right, cool." [42:04] >> So, I told him I was going to text him [42:05] and give the workout cuz I'll get I'll [42:06] lay out the workout for everybody. And [42:08] uh I told Luke he was going to go three [42:10] rounds of sparring, full-on sparring, [42:12] and then Ben's got to go 40 minutes [42:14] straight. No breaks, just grappling. Not [42:17] wrestling, just grappling. [42:18] >> And they're [ __ ] up. [42:18] >> Dude, I told Justin, I was like, "All [42:20] right, let's [ __ ] with see how he is. [42:21] And dude, instantly, I didn't text it. [42:23] We just started talking about it. So, [42:24] we're on the way home driving home. And [42:26] dude, Ben is like, "Dude, he's like he's [42:29] like, "Uh, I'll I'll just take you [42:31] down." And and he's like I I asked him, [42:32] "How many times you going to take him [42:33] down?" "As many as I want. [42:34] >> Many times as I want, [42:35] >> dude." [42:35] >> He's like, "4 minutes. Let's go see." [42:38] >> So, they went 20. Dude, you got what? [42:39] Seven submissions on your coach. He [42:41] drugg him back on the mat. It was so [42:42] funny cuz I was like, "Dude, you got to [42:43] drag him back on the mat cuz I got to [42:45] witness this." [42:45] >> It's funny cuz I got a video. Uh, [42:47] >> dude, we get home. home. I go home. I go [42:49] down and take a nap for like two hours [42:51] and they just stay drinking up talking [42:54] [ __ ] while they're drinking. [42:55] >> My YouTube guy filmed everything and [42:56] they're just talking so much [ __ ] how [42:58] they're going to [ __ ] me up. [42:59] >> Luke was good though. Luke was like he [43:01] was trying to say [43:01] >> Luke's been through it, man. [43:02] >> Like you're really going to say that [43:03] like Luke's [43:04] >> Yeah. Luke's like, "Hey, I ain't saying [43:05] any of this. Not me. It's him." [43:07] >> But they're making a plan how they're [43:08] going to team up on me. [43:10] >> And so you It's funny. Then he got that [43:12] video there and I'm beating Ben's ass. [43:15] >> Oh, no. Actually, I went with Luke first [43:16] and I was [ __ ] him up. And Luke's [43:18] punching Ben because Ben won't jump in. [43:21] >> Ben's like, he's like, "What the [ __ ] [43:22] Ben? What the [ __ ] Ben? Now's the [43:24] time." [43:25] >> And he's asking for help. Asking for [43:27] help. I beat his ass. And I did. [43:29] >> We have fun. For sure. [43:31] >> Great coaches. Our whole team is just [43:33] everybody's so dialed in. [43:34] >> Yeah, that whole week is one of my Every [43:35] time we go, that whole week is one of my [43:37] favorite experiences. [43:38] >> You were using the sauna in between [43:40] workouts as well [43:41] >> and before. So, we were [43:42] >> nothing. That [ __ ] sucked. I say it was [43:44] perfect. You say it was perfect. It was [43:46] not. It was detrimental to our [43:48] performances. Yes. The humidity was [43:50] there. I didn't realize it because [43:52] obviously it's not, you know, it's not [43:53] something I can worry about right now. [43:55] But after round one, I just remember [43:57] thinking, [43:58] >> "Oh, [ __ ] I am so tired right now. How [44:01] how is this possible?" And the amount of [44:03] the amount of fluid I lost was probably [44:06] lost like 15 pounds. [44:06] >> Yeah. Because it was in the 70s, [44:08] >> dude. [44:08] >> Yeah. 70s with the cool breeze. You [44:10] know, when you go out there, what you [44:11] feel is the cool breeze, but [44:12] >> heavy in the fight, man. It was It was [44:15] different. [44:15] >> Yeah. I hated the fact that it was going [44:17] to happen, but I'm glad it did. [44:19] >> I'm again I I would not change. Again, I [44:21] think [44:21] >> how could you change it? [44:22] >> It affects me. It affects him, you know. [44:24] Again, I grew up in the country. He's [44:26] >> he's a city boy. There's no way he's not [44:28] a city boy. I don't know him personally, [44:29] but there's no way he's not a city boy, [44:31] you know? And so, as a country country [44:33] boy from [44:34] >> the desert in Arizona, like I was hoping [44:37] that it would be [44:38] >> hot as [ __ ] [44:39] >> Hot as [ __ ] Like [44:41] >> when he sat down on the stool, I was [44:42] like, "Oh god, these outside fights kill [44:44] me." [44:44] >> Yeah. You know, he was dude like, "Dude, [44:47] you were shaking, [44:48] >> dude." He was like trembling. I was [44:49] like, "Holy shit." [44:51] >> Well, it is crazy to ask people to [44:53] defend a world title in a completely [44:55] alien environment that you never have [44:56] fights in. We've had [44:58] >> How many fights outside? We've had the [45:00] Abu Dhabi fight in like what was that [45:02] 200 [ __ ] nine or something like that? [45:06] >> Oh, they did didn't the What was the [45:08] setting? I wasn't there. It was it was [45:10] >> when Adosa did his famous walk out in [45:13] like a it was covered but it was [45:15] >> it seemed like the environment was [45:17] outside [45:18] >> poorer against Abu Dhabi [45:21] Abu Dhabi. Well, we did one in Abu Dhabi [45:24] when BJ [45:26] >> the big arena [45:27] >> lost to Frankie Edgar. That was outside [45:29] in Abu Dhabi. [45:31] >> Um and that was when Anderson Silva [45:33] fought Damen Maya. [45:34] >> Is that was it with that Ferrari [45:36] building? The Ferrari building was [45:38] there, but it I don't know if it was in [45:40] the same place. [45:41] >> They had a Did they have a fight in the [45:42] Ferrari building? [45:43] >> I think they did, but I wasn't there for [45:45] that one. I only went to one of the Abu [45:46] Dhabi fights. [45:47] >> Yeah. It wasn't It wasn't that long ago. [45:49] >> Remember we were talking the last seven [45:51] years? [45:52] >> Remember the dude in Morocco said after [45:54] the first round he was done. He was just [45:55] trying to survive. He said it was so [45:56] hot. Remember? [45:57] >> Yeah. No, I mean that's what I remember [46:00] >> it being over there and then you know [46:01] once you realize the climate over there [46:03] and the humidity it's like [46:05] >> [ __ ] bow dog. Remember Bodog fights? [46:07] Bowdog fights. They had they had a fight [46:09] outside in the sun. [46:11] >> Yeah. [46:12] >> On the beach. [46:13] >> Caesar Palace in Vegas. Remember [46:16] Caesar's Palace? They had a boxing I we [46:18] got to fight there. Verno Phillips [46:19] against. [46:20] >> That's right. They used to always do it [46:21] outside. [46:22] >> World was a fighting around that NASCAR [46:25] event. [46:25] >> Yeah, that's that was crazy. [46:27] >> During [46:28] Duran versus Hearns was outside. [46:30] >> They were they were great. Yeah. [46:31] >> Yeah, that's true. That's right. [46:34] At least Vegas is dry. [46:36] >> Yeah. [46:36] >> Yeah. Yeah. Totally. [46:37] >> Arizona, Vegas, Colorado. [46:39] >> Yeah. Humidity was what I was training [46:40] for with him was heat stroke. Like [46:42] dealing with it where you can't breathe. [46:43] It's heavy air like like [46:45] >> So you putting water on the rocks in the [46:46] sauna as well. And so what was [46:49] >> And we trained in a hotter gym. I I'd [46:50] turn the temperature up in the gyms just [46:51] so he's getting used to dealing with a [46:53] little bit more heat stroke. [46:54] >> We would spike my heart rate and then I [46:56] would go in the sauna 15 minutes and [46:57] then I would come out and do eight to 10 [46:59] rounds. [47:01] >> It was great. I I'm so glad we did it. [47:03] >> Very smart. Very smart. Cuz that [47:05] environment is I mean it's so completely [47:08] different. I I just [47:10] >> ultimately I think the best way to fight [47:12] is obviously the way you usually fight. [47:14] Controlled environment. That's how it [47:15] should be. [47:15] >> It was cool though, Joe. You know why? [47:17] >> So cool. [47:18] >> So we we went did we went and did a [47:19] rehearsal. Okay. And I'm like, why are [47:21] we rehearsing a walkthrough? Like this [47:23] ain't a freaking wedding. Like just tell [47:24] us where to go. The camera guys are [47:26] always like, "All right, your mark [47:27] here." [47:28] >> So why are we doing this? And then we go [47:30] there and we get stuck in this locker [47:32] room for two hours, [47:33] >> hour, hour and a half [47:34] >> because of rain. And thank God that [47:36] happened because then I started to go, [47:38] "Oh, because it's all unexpected. You [47:40] and how I said, "Hey, I'm a visualizer. [47:43] I can't visualize this this arena." And [47:45] I visualize a lot, too. So, I was like, [47:46] I felt the exact same thing when he said [47:48] that. And uh that's when I knew, hey, [47:51] these are going to be some huge [47:52] unknowns. And I had told him that night [47:54] cuz the rain was coming. Like, it was [47:56] crazy how the storm split around cuz it [47:58] was all bright red. And I was like, [47:59] "This is thunderstorms. This ain't just" [48:01] And [48:02] >> they were talking about pushing the [48:03] fight till 10:30 p.m. [48:04] >> We had planned on fighting at the start [48:05] of the night at 2:00 in the morning. [48:07] >> I started staying up till like 3:00 a.m. [48:08] after the rehearsal. I was like, "It [48:10] could be 3:00 a.m. when we fight. [48:11] >> I'm going to just start staying up." [48:12] >> But that's what was cool. Like the walk [48:14] out like having the soldiers like just [48:16] walking through the soldiers. There was [48:18] that [48:19] >> we weren't able to take any of this in. [48:21] Joe, uh, and I can't really speak for [48:23] him. I know where his mindset. I [48:24] couldn't from a coach's standpoint. I [48:27] was nervous as [ __ ] cuz you don't know. [48:28] There's no pattern I could take on right [48:30] now and kind of put myself and breathe [48:32] to it. It was very unique. And at the [48:35] end, I couldn't even really smile. It [48:36] was just like, dude, I'm just like blown [48:39] away. Now I can kind of just look around [48:41] slowly and just try to take in [48:43] everything because it was very very hard [48:45] to to go through that scenario with the [48:49] pressure of us fighting on on this stage [48:51] at the White House. We're the Americans. [48:55] We're a six to1 underdog. That gets to [48:57] you that that you know when you hear [48:58] that over and over and over and over, [49:00] it's you know your phone, dude. You you [49:04] >> caught a Marlin. [49:06] >> But uh having uh uh [49:08] >> take a left. [49:09] >> Just that scenario was so unique. And [49:12] then once it was over, then it was like [49:13] now I get to enjoy the White House and [49:16] just being here in this this this great [49:18] environment. [49:18] >> There you can see it. What is he reading [49:20] there? Is that the Declaration of [49:21] Independence? [49:22] >> Yep. So we weren't in the room with him [49:23] right there. We through the the [49:24] rehearsal. Yeah. How crazy was that? [49:27] He's in the Oval Office stepping out [49:30] >> and then all the soldiers walking [49:31] through. So cool. Like having the two [49:33] guys next to him [49:34] >> and a lot of people complained about [49:36] this happening at the White House. And [49:39] but [49:40] >> do you don't think this is cool? [49:41] >> This is how could you not like this? How [49:44] could anyone not This shouldn't be [49:46] taking place. Shut the [ __ ] up, [49:48] >> dude. Life is a fight. World is a fight. [49:50] >> It's incredible to watch. [49:51] >> Inspirational. It's a wild thing to [49:54] watch. By the way, how much gold did [49:55] Trump put on those walls? Look, he's got [49:57] gold everywhere. Look at these [ __ ] [49:58] gold designs. [49:59] >> When we were at the the the Oval Office, [50:01] first thing I said is I was like, "This [50:02] thing is small as hell." Like when I see [50:04] it on pictures, it like seems so big and [50:06] I was like, "But the gold pieces on the [50:07] wall is the first thing I was like, they [50:09] dust that [ __ ] every day cuz dude, it [50:11] was so clean." [50:12] >> Well, he put that up there. None of that [50:13] was there. None of that was there. He [50:15] was explaining to me there was no gold. [50:17] I wanted to have gold. He's got a gold [50:19] cherub, like a solid gold cherub that's [50:21] above like one of the doors. He goes, [50:23] "If Putin comes, hopefully it doesn't [50:24] fall in his head. It's like he's got [50:27] gold everywhere. It's all him." He [50:28] redesigned a bunch of the things there. [50:30] You know, he's a builder, right? So [50:31] that's why he wanted to do the ballroom. [50:33] That's why he wanted to keep it, you [50:34] know, [50:35] >> he likes everything in gold. He's a gold [50:38] guy. [50:39] >> Was that Austin Powers, [50:41] >> bro? Watch. We were just watching you [50:43] look at the Declaration of Independence [50:45] before you walked out, which is also [50:47] wild. Like, this is never going to [50:49] happen again. This is more historic than [50:52] Rumble in the Jungle, more historic than [50:55] I mean, think about all the great fights [50:57] that we've all watched as kids that were [50:59] like, remember that? This tops [51:01] everything because of the scene, because [51:04] of the fact that not only is it at the [51:06] White House, but the American, who's a [51:09] six to one on some books underdog, pulls [51:12] it off in spectacular fashion [51:14] >> and just the seessaw of the fight, [51:16] >> the back and forth, [51:17] >> the back and forth of the fight was [51:19] [ __ ] huge because the second round [51:20] was crazy. It was like, "Oh, no." [51:23] >> And letting it go on again when when so [51:25] our corner, all the coaches were like, [51:26] "Dude, they're going to stop it." And I [51:27] was said out loud, I was like, "Please [51:29] let it go on. And I just wanted a like a [51:32] like [51:33] >> definitive ending, [51:34] >> dude. Cuz that would have been a point [51:35] where it's like especially with him [51:37] going, "Hey, I want to go and continue." [51:38] And then we have Goddard come out and [51:40] say, "Hey, you are [51:41] >> God for Mark Goddard." Okay. Cuz if it [51:43] wasn't for Mark Godard, if another less [51:45] experienced referee, [51:47] >> you think he did? [51:48] >> He wanted it out. [51:49] >> Yeah. [51:50] >> You don't you don't you know for a fact [51:52] you do not ever as a fighter say, "I [51:54] cannot see. It's over." [51:56] >> And he was counting on that. He said he [51:57] had already stated it. He didn't need to [51:59] say it again. He did not think they were [52:00] I don't think he thought they were going [52:01] to. [52:02] >> So you think that he called Godard a [52:03] turkey internally? He was like when he [52:05] said, "Oh, you're going to go fight." [52:07] Hey, I was playing [52:08] >> in that moment. He just like I've done, [52:10] you know, I'm I've tried and it might [52:12] have been like, you know, the little [52:13] devil on his shoulder trying to get him [52:14] out and then he re-evaluated and rethunk [52:17] it and understood that he had to keep [52:19] fighting. [52:20] >> Did you say thunk? [52:21] >> Thunk it. [52:21] >> Rethunk it. [52:22] >> Dude, that's [52:24] a real word. [52:25] >> I stopped. I [52:27] >> I stopped. I stopped. I stopped him [52:29] twice. I stopped him twice that night. [52:32] There's no doubt about it. [52:33] >> I loved it. I loved it. [52:34] >> This episode is brought to you by OnX [52:36] Off-Road. Ever wonder how to reach these [52:39] epic mountain lakes? They're tucked away [52:42] dispersed campsites. 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[53:32] Well, it was um it was a big factor that [53:35] Goddard let it go on because then we got [53:37] to see that epic fourth round which is [53:39] [ __ ] crazy which was just in the end [53:42] when you landed that knee to the body [53:44] that was like the final [53:46] >> that was right where he landed that [53:48] heavy knee that he just starts chopping [53:50] it where he got the elbow in. [53:51] >> Yeah. And then then he has to quit on a [53:54] stool. And if GodDard had just given to [53:58] that referee or that judges or the the [54:00] doctors rather desires. Here it is. [54:03] >> I love how you punch right here. Right [54:04] on the spot. [54:05] >> Yeah. [54:06] >> Oh, right there. Oh, right where I just [54:08] Oh. [54:09] >> Yeah. He did not like that. [54:10] >> And that was the end. [54:15] >> Crazy fight. I mean, [54:16] >> it's crazy how different. So again, [54:18] being a fan of this sport, I've got to [54:19] watch, you know, I would have usually [54:21] watched this from and yeah, it would [54:22] have been the most [ __ ] incredible [54:24] thing ever. Being the fighter, you know, [54:26] you're really not appreciating any of [54:29] that because you're so locked in to [54:32] >> it's like golfing, like you don't know, [54:33] but golfing, it's like certain swing [54:35] thoughts, you know, and nothing else can [54:37] come in, nothing can creep in. And so me [54:41] looking at the Declaration of [54:42] Independence, I was looking at it, but I [54:44] I didn't I didn't take it in as as this [54:48] being the Declaration. I was sitting [54:49] there. I was like, "Okay, got to reset [54:51] his feet. Got to control. Got to move [54:53] left. Got to move left. Can't get [54:55] against the fence." You know, and then [54:57] those are the thoughts I'm having as the [54:58] through the whole walk out. And so I'm [55:00] really not taking any of it in as it as [55:02] it, you know, as the show or as the [55:04] theatrics of it. [55:06] >> Of course not. Watching it in hindsight [55:08] obviously is is [ __ ] awesome. [55:10] >> There was something special about you [55:11] warming up with the American flag around [55:13] your shoulder, too. We were watching [55:15] that. There was something special about [55:16] watching you shadow box before all this [55:18] with the American flag on. I was like, [55:21] if he wins, good lord, if he wins [55:24] tonight, it's going to be [ __ ] [55:26] insane. And it was is the the the [55:29] feeling of like joy throughout the [55:32] building, throughout the grounds, like [55:34] the happiness that everybody had seen [55:36] had been there to see such an incredible [55:38] event and such an amazing cap to that [55:40] event with your fight. [55:42] >> It was just nuts. [55:43] >> It felt like a whole arena to me. It was [55:45] crazy for the amount of people that you [55:47] could see. [55:47] >> Here it is to back flip in front of the [55:49] [ __ ] White House. [55:52] >> Dude, he flag you flag. That's a sick [55:56] picture. I rolled out of it. [55:57] >> It was Hey, hey, tell me tell me what [55:59] was it? Tell me that what' you use [56:02] Newton's law. [56:02] >> Newton's first law. Object in motion [56:04] needs to stay. I just stayed in motion. [56:06] >> Stay in motion. That's all it is. [56:08] >> Look at the size of that [ __ ] crowd [56:09] that was outside. [56:10] >> So, you couldn't see this crowd. Like, I [56:12] couldn't see this crowd, but [56:14] >> you could hear them and you could feel [56:16] them. You could feel the energy. I mean, [56:19] even though there was only 4,000 people, [56:21] did not did not feel like 4,000 people. [56:24] It felt like a h 100,000 people because [56:25] all those people were behind us, [56:27] >> you know. It was different. [56:28] >> How many people were in that? [56:29] >> 85,000 plus. Yeah. [56:32] >> It happened so fast. [56:33] >> The the the size of the group outside [56:35] was insane. [56:37] >> I mean, and they're watching on these [56:38] giant screens and freaking out [56:40] >> like a concert. When we were at the [56:42] weigh-ins, it was like, dude, that's [56:43] what I picture like Woodstock being [56:45] like, dude, I looked and I could not see [56:47] the end of the people. [56:47] >> Yeah. No, it was nut. The weigh-ins were [56:49] nuts. When we first walked out, I was [56:51] like, "Holy [ __ ] this is crazy." But it [56:54] just shows how hyped people were for [56:56] this event, [56:57] >> you know? I mean, it was an incredible [56:58] event. I mean, the UFC production team, [57:01] they just knocked it out of the park. [57:02] And then more importantly, you knocked [57:04] it out of the park. The cap, it couldn't [57:07] have gone better. And the the most [57:09] important thing was that you did have to [57:10] overcome that. We did see a real back [57:13] and forth and we did see the skills that [57:15] led people to believe that this guy is [57:17] the number one pound-for-pound fighter [57:18] in the world. I mean, his [ __ ] boxing [57:20] is elite. It is sharp shooter and [57:23] >> but I mean my coach is a [ __ ] genius. [57:27] I mean when it comes to like again it's [57:29] really hard to you always sound right in [57:32] hindsight but the strategy we had was so [57:36] perfect to fight a guy like that. I mean [57:39] if I think if you ask him right now [57:41] which way was Justin moving, he's going [57:44] to think I was moving right the whole [57:46] time because my head is so so heavy and [57:49] I lean over to that side. But I was [57:51] moving left the entire time. And he's so [57:55] pointed that, you know, he he's powerful [57:57] here. But when you when you put him [58:00] here, like nobody can push and sprint. [58:03] Like he's not ever going to take off [58:04] sprinting that way as fast as he can. [58:06] He's going to have to gather and reset [58:08] and then and then point and then go. And [58:11] I constantly kept readjusting him. And [58:15] it was so subtle. And that's what [58:18] fighting is. his subtle subtle [58:19] movements, but I mean his game plan was [58:22] was and then his game plan, his mind, my [58:28] u ability, but really it's my athletic [58:31] ability. Like if people don't understand [58:33] how athletic I am and I think that is [58:36] what surprises every opponent I've ever [58:39] fought is how, you know, herkyjerky, [58:42] twitchy, how explosive and how athletic [58:45] I am. And I think that's the biggest [58:47] asset that I have. [58:48] >> Why do you think anybody be surprised by [58:50] that at this stage? Why do you think [58:51] they're surprised? [58:52] >> Because the human because it doesn't [58:54] look like that. [58:54] >> No, you're I I Justin, I think you're [58:56] looking into the Patty fight. I feel [58:58] like uh the Patty fight you you cuz a [59:00] lot of people were like, "Oh, you look [59:02] older. You look this." Cuz the way we [59:03] fought like our sty our game patty [59:05] fight. [59:05] >> How sweet is that? Now, I mean, if you [59:07] watch the Patty fight, you would never [59:09] expect you would only expect punches [59:10] coming from here. That's all I because [59:13] he would pull [59:14] >> I had to like wrangle him in. [59:15] >> Wrangle him in. [59:16] >> And this guy, no shot, [59:18] >> palm strikes. Like we need to palm [59:19] strike him. We need to keep him inside [59:21] of our loop. And uh if if you're [59:23] throwing straight shots at Patty, Patty [59:24] will disengage very long with his his [59:27] upper body. So he was throwing wild [59:29] shots and then long uppercuts like stay [59:31] on the outside when you're throwing up [59:33] cuz Patty's got very good knees coming [59:34] in. So we can't get too deep with the [59:35] head. very simple plan, but also it was [59:38] like make it chaotic as most chaotic as [59:41] you could be uh to be able to do that [59:43] because Patty his blitzing was very [59:44] fast. He's a very good blitzer. He'll [59:46] he'll blitz past you and almost like [59:47] running type of punches like old Vtor [59:50] Belffort. But this fight is a lot [59:52] different where it's now elbows in. We [59:55] have to be tight in these types of [59:56] positions and we need to step to his [59:59] center and get on his back foot line or [60:01] outside of his back foot line. And that [60:02] was like a key factor to this one is [60:04] because Ilia is very front heavy and [60:06] we'll bounce back and forth. So once he [60:08] goes to this angle, we need to attack [60:10] the rear shoulder and once he starts to [60:11] reset now, we're going to be able to jab [60:13] and stick the jab at the rear shoulder [60:15] where your jab was landing. That's my [60:17] favorite part is the jab wasn't landing [60:18] here where I got a very good slide. [60:20] We're jabbing outside. So you're not [60:22] doing inside jab coming under. You're [60:24] jabbing from outside your shoulder which [60:25] is pushing him on his rear foot. And [60:27] then once we started to pressure, my [60:29] favorite part is the the jab, pause, [60:31] right hand, [60:32] >> his left foot, Justin's left foot when [60:35] we go has to be has to be outside his [60:37] rear foot like right there. [60:39] >> He opened his lead foot and he got his [60:40] foot outside. And that's also so in case [60:42] the right hand counter. [60:43] >> That was a giant moment in the fight [60:45] when he landed that right. [60:46] >> Dude, the sound of it was crazy. [60:47] >> I wanted to sub his ass. [60:49] >> Oh, that was such a hard shot. [60:50] >> Do Do that one more time, Jamie. Watch [60:52] his lead foot after the jab. Now watch [60:54] his left foot after the jab outside the [60:56] rear foot. Boom. [60:58] >> And that because he's got a high [60:59] shoulder. If if I'm throwing a right [61:01] hand down this point, if you were [61:02] looking at me, Joe, if you're if if I'm [61:05] here, if he gets his foot out now, the [61:07] shot is coming from here. So, we were [61:08] able to put him on the back foot and [61:10] find that over because Ali's got a very [61:11] good shoulder tuck. [61:12] >> He also dropped that right hand down. [61:14] >> Yeah, [61:15] >> it was beautiful. It was beautiful. And [61:17] it was such a giant moment in the fight. [61:19] >> Like, look where I started. I started [61:21] with my back to us and look left, left. [61:25] >> Mhm. left, left, left. [61:29] But if you go out to the left backwards [61:32] where that's where uh Ilia to me is the [61:34] best. How we stop Vulk where he'll throw [61:37] at you and then you go and then then he [61:38] readjusts his lead shoulder almost to a [61:40] salpa. Super dangerous there. That was [61:42] one thing we tal about we cannot go [61:43] backwards to the left cuz that's where [61:45] we get square and Ilia dude he's he's [61:47] very front heavy so he will attack you [61:49] quick and he gets there fast. [61:51] >> Well, if he can recover from this it's [61:53] going to be a big lesson. a big lesson [61:55] learned. And [61:56] >> you know, I wonder if he'll still have [61:58] those celebration dinners the night [61:59] before. [62:01] >> There's no way [62:02] >> he better not, dude. His co his team [62:04] that's that's up to his coaches to be [62:05] honest with you. [62:05] >> It's it's amazing [62:07] thing. Like it it people love that kind [62:10] of confidence. They love that belief in [62:11] themselves. And when someone pulls it [62:13] off, people were talking for days about [62:16] the all of you know, he celebrated the [62:18] night before. Isn't that crazy? [62:19] >> And it and it worked that time and it it [62:21] played out great for him. But the lack [62:23] of experience being the nail, [62:26] >> so much experience being the hammer and [62:28] also [62:28] >> expectations. He never thought he would [62:30] had to be here. [62:31] >> But you keep say I wanted to go back to [62:33] this thing that you said that the people [62:34] don't think you're athletic. And I don't [62:35] agree with that. I don't understand why [62:37] you think that. [62:40] >> I mean, [62:40] >> and maybe watches the Michael Johnson [62:42] fight doesn't think you're athletic. I [62:45] got to college, you know, my freshman [62:46] year of college and I did a a cartwheel [62:50] to a back flip and these guy two one guy [62:52] was like, [62:54] I would have never [ __ ] guessed you [62:56] could do some [ __ ] like that. Like I [62:57] just don't understand, you know? If you [62:59] look at me, I don't look like an [63:00] athlete, but [63:01] >> dude, you want a Ferrari? [63:02] >> No, I I know a Ferrari. [63:05] >> I know how athletic I am. I just The [63:07] perception [63:08] >> No, no, no. Your perception's crazy. [63:10] Listen, you look like an athlete. What [63:12] the [ __ ] are you talking about, [63:13] >> dude? He say, dude, he sent me this [63:14] picture when I first met him from he [63:16] went up to do a a clinic with his coach [63:19] up in Granby with Ben Cherington and uh [63:22] he sends me this video out of nowhere. I [63:24] open it up and he's got a soccer ball [63:26] and he's in this auditorium with the [63:28] pads down on the ground and he's got his [63:29] phone set up on the the pads that are [63:31] against the wall. He throws a soccer [63:33] ball up in the air and he does one of [63:34] those bicycle kicks. Never he played [63:36] just like one or two years of soccer. He [63:38] did a bicycle kick, landed on his feet, [63:40] and the ball knocked the phone off the [63:42] freaking thing, dude. He hit the [63:44] freaking phone. It was the coolest thing [63:46] I've ever seen. I was like, "Bro, you [63:47] are nuts." This guy snowboarding when we [63:49] snowboard cuz I rode professional when I [63:51] was younger. He got taken out of out of [63:53] high school for it and he [63:56] this dude, he he would catch things so [63:58] fast and his tumbling. There was one [63:59] time we were watching him and he was in [64:01] mogul and mogul suck on a snowboard. He [64:03] does this 360, catches his edge, falls [64:06] to his back, and bounces off one of the [64:08] moguls to a backflip right back into the [64:10] mogul. And dude, these people on the [64:11] side thought he meant to do that [ __ ] [64:13] They're like, dude, I was like, bro, his [64:15] tumbling skills, dude, you're freaking [64:17] nuts. You are an athlete. I think [64:18] everybody knows you're an athlete. [64:19] >> Well, you're not built like Paulo Costa, [64:21] if that's what you mean. Yeah. [64:22] >> You know, it's like you're not, you [64:24] know, there's there's guys that have [64:26] less body fat than you and guys have [64:28] more prominent muscles than you, but [64:29] nobody looks at you fighting and doesn't [64:31] think you're athletic. That's crazy. [64:33] >> I think it's the experts after the Patty [64:35] fight saying, "Oh, you look sloppy." And [64:37] those fights got to be sloppy. [64:38] >> Those people are [ __ ] That fight [64:41] looked like like chaos. Looked like you [64:43] were going to press him and you you it [64:45] also looked like you were kind of [64:46] disdainful [64:47] >> of his his ability to hurt you. [64:50] >> Yeah. You know exactly. [64:51] >> Yeah. Once once I didn't respect his [64:53] power, I was like, I'm [ __ ] walking [64:55] through. [64:55] >> Yeah. And that's what it looked like. It [64:56] looked like you were just just trying to [64:59] make it as chaotic as possible. [65:00] >> You make it sound like you had like a [65:01] water boy. Like someone was like, "The [65:04] water sucks." [65:06] >> He's like making the noises. Dude, [65:09] >> no. [65:09] >> You don't. But that's also probably a [65:13] good thing that you think about yourself [65:14] that way, you know, because it forces [65:17] you to rise above and beyond anybody's [65:20] expectations of you, you know. And I [65:22] think one of the things about this fight [65:24] that makes it so important is because [65:26] Ilia was so dangerous, you had to get [65:29] like deep in the zone. You couldn't have [65:31] a moment like the Max fight. You could [65:33] >> Well, it was the Max fight got me here. [65:36] Without that, I would have never [65:39] been as hungry. I said it was going to [65:41] happen and it didn't happen. Didn't [65:42] happen. Didn't happen. Then it happened [65:44] and it's like, okay, now I can I can [65:47] never let my parents see me like that [65:48] again. That was that was a driving [65:50] factor. Like I can never let my mom I [65:52] remember getting knocked out. I don't [65:54] remember getting knocked out. I got [65:55] knocked out. I don't remember anything. [65:57] I don't remember him getting his hand [65:58] raised and it had to have been 40 [66:01] minutes to an hour and then I just my [66:04] first recollection is being in the [66:06] ambulance and seeing my mom's face. [66:07] >> Can I tell you that? Can I tell that [66:08] story? [66:09] >> Yeah. Yeah. Tell me what I did cuz I [66:10] still don't know. [66:11] >> So we're in the ambulance. Okay. And [66:13] >> you never know how you I was you were [66:16] there when I came back. [66:17] >> Your mom's standing outside the back [66:18] doors and we're waiting for the driver [66:20] that that there's a medic in there with [66:21] us, but he's he's good. But he keeps [66:23] asking the same question over and over. [66:25] >> I still don't remember any of this. [66:26] >> And I'm worried about like, you know, [66:27] everybody's parents are different on how [66:29] they react, you know, and uh his mom was [66:31] just cool. Just like I was so impressed. [66:33] I was so impressed with her just spirit [66:35] of seeing that happen. But Jess is [66:37] laying there and he's like he's cool in [66:39] everything he does. So he's got like [66:41] this cool like lay like he's like you [66:43] know just got stopped and he's laying [66:45] there and he's like he'll look at me and [66:47] he gets like his head he's like I got [66:50] knocked out and I was like yeah [66:51] >> it's like 40 this like 40 seconds. [66:52] >> He's like what round? What round? And I [66:55] said last second of the fight and he [66:56] goes [66:58] >> good for him dude. Then it would like [67:01] dude I'm telling you like 2 minutes [67:02] would go by and we'd just be having [67:03] normal conversation and he look at me I [67:06] get knocked out and I was like yep dude [67:09] it happened over and over and over [67:10] >> happened with fighters. [67:11] >> Yes. But him saying good for him the way [67:14] he said it every time that he came back [67:16] to it like that's the type of person [67:19] Justin is like if if he lose in [67:21] competition the better man won that [67:23] night. And that to me is something that [67:25] stands out to me. That's character. [67:27] >> Character of him saying when he does it [67:28] that that's subconscious traits that you [67:30] have. [67:31] >> That character is also the character [67:32] that allows you to reach your full [67:33] potential. [67:34] >> Absolutely. [67:35] >> Cuz you're not being held back by any [67:36] [ __ ] ego things. [67:38] >> Not fake. [67:38] >> Cuz there's a lot of people that are [67:39] held back as good as they are. They [67:42] don't ever reach their full potential [67:43] because they have some [ __ ] ego [67:45] problems. [67:45] >> Absolutely. They care of what everybody [67:47] thinks. And that in that situation, [67:49] losing that fight in the last second of [67:51] the last round and having that reaction, [67:53] that is the truest test of character [67:56] that a man is ever going to go through. [67:57] >> Yeah, [67:58] >> that is as true a test of character ever [68:00] in front of the whole world. [68:01] >> What I remember first is seeing my mom's [68:03] face though. Saw her face and I saw no [68:05] concern. I just She was worried about [68:08] me, but she was not concerned. [68:10] >> She wasn't freaked out. [68:12] >> No, she wasn't freaked out at all. I was [68:13] like, [68:14] >> and that's when I I never I never reset [68:17] and asked if I had got knocked out again [68:19] after that moment, I don't think. [68:20] >> No, no. Once it it happened for probably [68:23] I'd say you probably asked it six or [68:24] seven times and then once that then we [68:26] were cool for probably five minutes [68:27] before we went to the hospital. Then [68:28] you're totally cool. The the cool part [68:31] about this, Joe, is those are some of my [68:34] and it sucks because he's he's taken a [68:36] shot like this, but me as a coach and as [68:38] as someone that just loves fighting and [68:40] loves the inspiration and and what these [68:42] guys do is those are my proudest [68:44] moments. Winning a fight like this, it [68:46] was proud and and and you know, take it [68:48] in, you're going, "Wow, this is a cool [68:50] spot to be in." And you have to be [68:51] grateful for it. But there's times where [68:54] I'm caught smiling when my fighters are [68:57] down. Like when when Camaro got got [68:59] kicked and I stood next to him with the [69:02] biggest smile just because I'm like, [69:03] "Dude, you went out on your shield. You [69:04] were looking so good." And this is the [69:06] way you stand up again. So important to [69:08] me. Justin Sales one time with Tim [69:11] Means. It was one of my proudest moments [69:13] just to see his his subconscious. Like I [69:16] love the mindset, [69:17] >> dude. Tim Means hits him with a knee and [69:20] he fights through it a little bit and [69:21] takes another knee and he goes down and [69:23] he's on the ground and his right leg is [69:25] still like moving and he's like still [69:27] punching and he's out and I'm like dude [69:30] that's a fighting spirit like there is [69:32] no quitted like you're you're fighting [69:33] through being knocked out and [69:35] subconsciously he's still in the fight [69:37] and his body is still reacting that way [69:39] instead of shelling up and being like I [69:41] just got rocked. I'm going to shell up. [69:42] >> I could not wait to get in the octagon [69:44] and they're like not trying to let me [69:45] in. I'm like, let me just get over to [69:46] him and sit next to him and put some ice [69:47] on the back. When we stop guys, I'm [69:49] always over to the other opponent first. [69:51] To me, that's that's the coolest part is [69:54] being able to see someone go out there [69:55] and do their best and then to watch them [69:57] come back. And that's why I'm I'm very [69:59] excited to kind of see what happens with [70:01] Ilia. This is going to be a hard one to [70:02] overcome, but I hope he does cuz he's [70:04] he's he's that talented. If he takes the [70:07] right lessons, that's going to be a [70:08] super inspirational thing to overcome. [70:10] It's going to be hard, but I I I sure [70:13] hope we get to witness that. I wonder if [70:15] he's going to stay at 155. There are big [70:18] guys at 155 and he's he wasn't that big [70:22] for 45. [70:24] >> You know, when you think about weight [70:25] cutting in the modern era, like you were [70:27] you're considerably bigger than him when [70:29] you guys were standing next to each [70:30] other. I'm like, this is there's a a big [70:32] difference. [70:32] >> I've also really focused on getting [70:35] bigger last three or four fights. [70:36] >> Yeah. [70:37] >> Yeah. I mean, I [70:38] >> You were 83 in a patty fight of Wayne. [70:40] Yeah. I was 83 in a patty fight. So he [70:42] was [70:43] >> I touched 80s this fight. [70:46] >> Uh we weighed on Saturday at 11. [70:48] Saturday when I went to bed I think I [70:50] was 184. [70:51] >> Oh wow. [70:52] >> And then I think when I woke up I was [70:53] like 176. That's how much we're [70:56] floating. It's crazy. Our bodies are [70:58] crazy, [70:59] >> right? Especially because all the weight [71:00] cutting. [71:01] >> But I think when I got there I was [71:02] pissing so much. I was actually too [71:05] hydrated for the drug test. So I had to [71:06] piss three three times. I couldn't drink [71:08] water. [71:09] >> You were too hydrated for a drug test. [71:11] How's that work? [71:12] >> Yeah. So, if if the piss is too diluted, [71:14] then they make you do it again. [71:16] >> Really? [71:17] >> Yeah. [71:17] >> That's that's why, you know, doing it [71:19] after a fight. They used to do it after [71:20] the fight all the time, but [71:22] >> your adrenaline's going so you don't [71:24] pee, so it takes a long time. Like, [71:25] we've sat in locker rooms for hours [71:27] waiting for the piss test. But when [71:28] you're doing it after like rehydration, [71:30] that's a shitty thing because these guys [71:31] have to hydrate. Everybody's [ __ ] [71:32] taking as much fluids as they can. So, [71:34] that makes it tough. But with the weight [71:36] cutting uh piece with him going back [71:37] down, [71:38] >> I agree with I think Ilia is a smaller [71:40] body, but he's also [71:42] >> a big advantage for Ilia's speed. And [71:44] when you go up in weight, that speed is [71:46] a huge factor. And if you see a lot of [71:48] guys go up like with Max, Max kept it [71:50] kept his speed when he came up. He when [71:52] he went back down, I think, you know, [71:53] everybody was like, "Oh, he beat Max. He [71:55] beat a drained Max." [71:56] >> Yeah. I think that weight cut down to 45 [71:58] for him was brutal. [72:00] >> That's And this is where from like a [72:03] coaching standpoint, if it is hard for [72:04] you to make it at that weight, I care [72:06] about the longevity of of a person. And [72:09] I've seen guys get dropped with jabs [72:11] because of bad weight cuts. [72:12] >> Yes. [72:13] >> And that going back down and and and [72:15] that's to me the scariest part in this [72:17] in this this fight game. [72:19] >> Well, I think there's two things we have [72:20] to change in the fight game. One of them [72:21] is weight cutting and two of them is [72:23] your gloves. You got to bring your [72:25] [ __ ] gloves in. But the weight [72:26] cutting thing, don't you think that we [72:28] need more weight classes? [72:30] >> Uh, [72:31] >> or I shouldn't say that. I should say do [72:33] you think we need more weight classes? I [72:34] think there's there's there's many ways [72:36] like I think you're going to have to [72:37] have some type of a a weight class and [72:40] there's different ways to do it. Like [72:42] maybe you you have where you can't go [72:44] over a certain amount of weight after [72:45] you make weight and you weigh in a week [72:47] out where you can really recover because [72:49] >> I think guys are going to do it anyway [72:51] and you're just going to have bad [72:52] performance. [72:52] >> I think I think for me I want nothing to [72:55] change. I mean we are grown ass men and [72:57] women and we're making these choices, [73:00] >> right? But you can make 55 and it's good [73:02] for your frame. Now imagine these guys [73:04] understand how hard it is for me to make [73:05] 55. [73:06] >> I'm sure it's hard. No, no, no. I'm not [73:07] thinking it's easy, but you can make it. [73:09] You've made it over and over and over [73:10] again, [73:10] >> but like think about guys that are in [73:13] between like 60 or or 65 or like in [73:16] boxing [73:17] >> 70 to 85 is crazy. 85 to 205 is bananas. [73:21] And then 205 to 265 that's [73:23] >> those weight classes are already watered [73:25] down in a way and so you're just going [73:28] to water it down more. So the these are [73:30] my thoughts and my uh research that I've [73:32] done that that it's it's I've talked to [73:35] Dr. D about it. Uh [73:37] >> and I I want to get some expert some [73:40] doctor who can actually talk to me about [73:42] this because when I started researching [73:43] boxing and why is there so many deaths [73:45] in boxing? What stood out to me was [73:48] almost every death in boxing in the last [73:51] 10 to 15 years [73:53] >> comes after there's every once in a [73:55] while it's from a punch where they get [73:56] dropped and they don't get up. and uh uh [73:58] they get hemorrhaging. [74:00] Almost all of them are past the ninth [74:03] round, especially the ones I'm talking [74:04] about that don't take a punch. They're [74:06] past the ninth round and it looks like [74:08] they start to get tired and they're just [74:09] like, "Hey, I need to take a knee and [74:11] lay down." A lot of these guys are [74:12] winning the fight and not even taking a [74:15] lot of damage. And if we're cutting [74:17] weight the day before, you're teaching [74:18] your body to sweat and sweat and sweat. [74:22] to me. I believe because I've had a [74:24] fighter uh where you know Kamar and his [74:26] last uh fight we were crapping so bad. [74:29] So scary. So freaking scary. Like I [74:30] almost dude I was within like like [74:34] minutes of calling. I talked to the [74:35] whole team about it. [74:36] >> But if you de dehydrate yourself, think [74:38] of my lips. If they get dehydrated, they [74:40] crack when I smile. And if you dehydrate [74:43] your brain, and I had talked to Dr. D. I [74:44] was like, is could that be something? If [74:46] you dehydrate your brain, would we cause [74:47] something? He's like, absolutely. And [74:49] then I started to research that. But if [74:50] you go back and look at all the boxers [74:52] and if we can get someone that could do [74:53] their true research that understands [74:55] this stuff, that to me is like what [74:57] scares me about weight cutting because [74:58] you're training your body to lose that [75:00] amount of weight and when you start to [75:01] do things in patterns, you just de took [75:04] all the nutrients out of your body and [75:06] then you're going hard in a fight like [75:07] that. That was like the big thing with [75:08] the Tony Ferguson fight that's kind of [75:10] funny now, but it wasn't funny to me. I [75:11] didn't give no [ __ ] water for five [75:13] round fight. That is crazy. And the the [75:16] longer you take your brain to that point [75:17] of dehydration, [75:18] >> why didn't you give him water? You just [75:20] forgot, [75:20] >> dude. [75:20] >> Yeah, we were locked in. [75:21] >> This guy don't train with water. So, [75:22] it's like, dude, [75:23] >> I don't drink water practice cuz [75:25] everyone's like, "You want water? I'm [75:26] like, water's for pussies." [75:28] >> No, I don't want water. [75:30] >> Talk about the mindset. [75:30] >> You don't drink any water in training at [75:32] all? [75:33] >> He'll drink afterwards like we did this [75:34] fight. [75:35] >> They made me this fight. [75:36] >> Okay. So, do you think that that that [75:41] >> No, because I it doesn't it can't cuz [75:43] I'm [ __ ] working right now. I'm [75:45] locked in. Like I might not get water [75:49] one day, you know? There might I might [75:50] want water. [75:51] >> Even when you're doing strength and [75:52] conditioning, everything. [75:53] >> Nothing. I never drink water during [75:54] practice. [75:55] >> Wow. So, you make sure you're hydrated [75:56] before you get in there. [75:57] >> Yeah. I drink a lot after and [75:59] >> but once you're in there, you just going [76:02] this fight was different. But [76:03] >> that's crazy. That's crazy. [76:05] >> That's just me. That's just hear about [76:06] those guys that go through Ramadan [76:08] [ __ ] [76:08] >> You know, Ramadan's nuts. Like, uh, you [76:10] know, I know Bal was training with no [76:13] water and, you know, drinking no water [76:15] during the day and then training again [76:18] at night time and, you know, that's [76:20] that's got to be so hard. But [76:22] >> going through hard training sessions and [76:25] no water. So, you're doing But so [76:28] there's two things going on. One one I [76:30] would think maybe you could do more work [76:32] and get more round more reps in more of [76:34] this if you're rehydrating [76:36] >> but then the other thing is like [76:39] >> would you and how much mental toughness [76:41] are you getting by not water right it's [76:44] a crutch [76:44] >> and the mental toughness thing [76:47] ultimately won you this fight there is a [76:49] lot of [ __ ] human beings at the top [76:51] top level of the sport that would have [76:53] folded in that second round [76:54] >> you did look the happiest at the Tony [76:55] Ferguson fight that look you gave me not [76:58] once not for one Did I contemplate that [77:00] I was done? [77:01] >> No, I mean you that's that's how you [77:03] felt. [77:04] >> He hit me. I was like, "Oh, fuck." [77:09] >> Hey, did you get to hear him in the [77:11] corner, dude? He goes He goes, "Dude, [77:13] that was a good body shot." I was like, [77:14] "Yeah, that was a sweet body shot." [77:15] Dude, who does that? [77:17] >> Who sits down is like, "Dude, the look [77:18] on his face wasn't like like eyebrows [77:20] like a like a A-frame cabin." [77:22] >> Well, even after the fight, you were [77:23] talking about how skilled he was. you [77:25] were you were talking about. [77:26] >> I mean, [77:29] >> I could go I could go so many different [77:31] ways with how I react to this fight. I [77:34] just want it to be known how [77:37] disrespectful he would have been if he [77:39] beat me. If he put me to sleep, if his I [77:42] mean, can you imagine how shitty he [77:44] would have been? And [77:47] >> I mean, it would have it would have it [77:49] was persona and the world the world [77:51] would have been [ __ ] shitty. I was [77:53] fighting for so much. [77:54] >> I was fighting for so much that night. [77:56] >> You know, I'm never going to let people. [77:59] >> For one, I know how special what I've [78:01] done is and it would have taken all of [78:03] it away with the loss and I wasn't going [78:06] to let that happen. [78:07] >> How about the people calling his loaded [78:08] gloves? Do you see the picture the the [78:10] the image? There's like rocks in his [78:12] hands. [78:12] >> People are so stupid, [78:13] >> dude. So stupid. [78:15] >> What a compliment. [78:15] >> Have they not watched any of his fights? [78:17] >> Yeah. [78:17] >> What a people saying I'm juice. What a [78:19] compliment. People saying I got bricks [78:21] in my [ __ ] gloves. What a compliment. [78:25] >> People are silly. You can't read the [78:27] internet. There's always going to be [78:28] someone saying something. [78:29] >> I know. But again, you go I got here cuz [78:31] I was petty. I I I read comments. I read [78:34] comments. Um [78:36] >> they fuel you. [78:37] >> They do. [78:37] >> They do. I've I've talked to him. I've [78:39] told him not to do it because it I'm [78:40] like, "Bro, this [ __ ] with so many [78:42] people." We had a conversation outside. [78:44] Like it it'll cause your mind to go [78:46] crazy. And he's like, I love it so much. [78:49] >> David Gogggins takes haters and he [78:52] records them on a loop and then plays it [78:54] to himself while he runs. [78:56] >> Yeah. I mean, that's crazy. [78:58] >> I don't I don't need to have it on I [78:59] don't need to have it on video. I know, [79:02] >> right? [79:02] >> I know what they're saying. I knew what [79:03] they were saying every [ __ ] day, [79:05] >> right? [79:05] >> And that's, you know, partly why I won. [79:09] >> Well, it's, you know, that Teddy [79:11] Roosevelt quote about the man in the [79:12] arena, you know. [79:13] >> Yep. [79:14] >> That's what it is. It's like there's [79:15] always going to be people on the [79:16] sidelines that are talking. [79:17] >> You're never going to make it's [79:18] impossible, [79:19] >> especially at the level that you're [79:20] fighting. [79:20] >> As ambitious as you are, you can never [79:22] make everybody happy. [79:23] >> No, that's why it's hard to be a [79:24] champion sucks. [79:25] >> The pressure, [79:26] >> you know, it really is detrimental to [79:28] like overall like what you're trying to [79:31] achieve [79:32] >> and it's just it's so hard. [79:35] >> Well, you can't make everybody happy [79:36] because some people are just not happy [79:38] period. It's like you being awesome is [79:40] going to make happy. [79:42] >> Yeah, but some people are not. They're [79:44] not healthy. They're not mentally [79:46] healthy. Their brain isn't right. They [79:48] they haven't done the right things in [79:49] their life. And they see success as [79:52] being somehow or another uh it steals [79:54] their own personal joy. Other people's [79:57] success is bad because they compare [79:58] themselves to other people and they [80:00] realize that they suck. [80:01] >> And I love seeing things h good things [80:02] happen for people. Like when Max knocked [80:06] me out, I was like, "Good for him." Like [80:07] [ __ ] imagine what he's feeling right [80:09] now. [80:10] >> Yeah. But because you have given [80:12] everything you have. you you've truly [80:15] maximized your potential. You've made [80:17] mistakes. You've made great decisions. [80:19] And ultimately, you wound up winning the [80:21] biggest fight of all time. [80:22] >> No. To exceed [80:23] >> But that's that's why you can be happy [80:25] for other people. [80:26] >> To exceed your expectations from 2017, [80:30] to exceed his expectations from 2011, to [80:33] exceed my own expectations [80:36] >> is I mean, I cannot describe how special [80:39] and how good that makes me feel, you [80:41] know, in general. Like that was my goal. [80:45] >> You didn't exceed a man. You You I [80:48] always had a feeling that you were going [80:49] to do some wild [ __ ] And after the Tony [80:51] Ferguson, [80:51] >> you couldn't have said I was going to do [80:52] this. [80:54] >> No one could listen. [80:55] >> There was a lot of conversations that I [80:57] had with people that were counting you [80:58] out that was like, I don't think I think [80:59] he can win this fight 100%. I mean, I [81:02] said it on the podcast. I even said it [81:04] to Ilia. Like Ilia was saying it was [81:06] >> I was I've seen that podcast and he was [81:08] so wrong so many times, you know, not [81:10] just the whole he has zero chance [81:12] against Patty. He said something about [81:14] how I probably sleep during the day more [81:18] than I do at night because I party too [81:20] much. And it's like you were so you [81:23] don't remember him saying that. [81:24] >> He said he said something about weed and [81:26] you're like I don't care about weed. [81:27] >> But [81:28] >> for him to think that that's true is [81:30] [ __ ] insane. [81:31] >> And you have five looses. [81:34] That's just [81:35] >> dude. Now he's got one lucid. He's going [81:36] to have to learn how to [81:37] >> I was like, "Wow." I was like, "Wow, [81:39] what a [ __ ] idiot." [81:40] >> You know, like to to think that I got [81:43] here by just being a a a guy that drinks [81:47] and, you know, has fun all the time. [81:50] Like, that's [ __ ] crazy. My life is [81:52] so boring. I don't go to bars. I I mean, [81:54] I don't do any of that. I sleep I sleep [81:57] eight to 10 hours every single night. I [82:00] was sleeping 10, but it's too much. So, [82:02] now I have to sleep eight. But for this [82:04] whole week, I was sleeping 12 hours [82:07] every single night of the of the fight [82:08] week. [82:09] >> That's nice. [82:10] >> It was so [ __ ] nice. [82:11] >> That is nice. You know, it's just one of [82:13] those things if he wanted to watch your [82:15] You have a YouTube channel. He could [82:16] watch [82:17] >> Well, I mean, also something to be said [82:19] about how I knew he was watching. If you [82:22] go back to my other like we'll always [82:24] show sparring. We'll always show me [82:25] hitting mits. I didn't show myself [82:26] hitting mits one time this camp. But I [82:28] didn't show myself sparring one time [82:29] this camp [82:30] >> purposely cuz we were switching up the [82:32] game plan big time like the tight [82:33] punches. [82:34] >> He had no he had he had expectations but [82:37] they were none of them were based in [82:38] reality and I controlled that. [82:42] >> That's awesome. [82:43] >> Yeah. And then you know when I did make [82:45] the when I did make the um comment about [82:48] his wife you know it was in a um [82:52] in an interview like this where we're [82:53] just [ __ ] around and I said it in [82:55] just I didn't Yeah. I it was 100% true. [82:59] I was like, he's so [ __ ] annoying. I [83:00] couldn't imagine being in the same room [83:03] with him, you know, with his pompous [83:06] attitude, you know, and you just trying [83:08] to like hang out with the guy, but he's [83:11] like constantly stealing all the thunder [83:14] and it's irrational. And it's like I [83:16] would leave him too. Like [83:19] I mean, if that's my part, like that's [83:21] why I broke up with my girlfriends is [83:22] cuz they were somewhat like that. I [83:25] mean, and so I I didn't mean it in a [83:28] mean way like I I would never dig at [83:30] somebody and I would never make fun of [83:32] someone's personal experience, but that [83:34] was like hon that was just my honest [83:36] take. [83:36] >> You are the honest guy. [83:37] >> And I was joking, but [83:40] >> but it was true. [83:40] >> You just say what you feel. [83:41] >> I said so many two things to him. I said [83:44] the so many I told him that he's going [83:45] to go to the second round, go to the [83:47] third round. You're going to be [ __ ] [83:48] because you're not going to be able to [83:50] pull yourself out of this. you know, [83:51] with the way that you're thinking, [83:52] there's no possible way you can have [83:54] these expectations, face adversity, and [83:56] then come out in a positive way. There's [83:59] no way it could happen. You're you could [84:01] dig deep and you could be even more of a [84:03] narcissist, and it might work, but you, [84:07] you know, you're going to you're going [84:08] to walk yourself into a situation that [84:10] is going to [ __ ] be detrimental to [84:12] you. And this is detrimental to his [84:15] psyche. And this is 90% mental. [84:18] >> Well, [84:19] >> so again, I want to see him go. We'll [84:20] see how he adjusts to the loss. But, [84:24] >> you know, [84:25] >> we'll see how honest he will be with [84:26] himself. [84:26] >> The strategy has to change that. You You [84:29] can't just hit the gas like that. And [84:31] we've seen that with boxers. We've seen [84:33] that with all kinds of fighters. They [84:35] just think they can just hit the gas. [84:37] Well, obviously, you had to make your [84:38] own adjustments. [84:39] >> Yeah. [84:40] >> You know how he overcame the the Max [84:41] fight? [84:42] >> How? [84:42] >> He adjusted. [84:46] >> Sorry. [84:47] >> Breaking you guys. Didn't you play golf [84:49] every day for a year? That's how you [84:50] >> Six months straight. [84:51] >> Wow. [84:52] >> Every day, dude. This guy got really [84:54] good. Yeah. DC was just raving about it. [84:57] He's like, I never seen anything like [84:59] it. He goes, "This guy's playing golf [85:00] like he's been playing for years." [85:01] >> That's crazy. [85:02] >> It's really funny. [85:04] >> It's Well, you know, that's the mindset [85:07] that's coachable. That's a coachable [85:09] mindset. Competitive and also [85:12] >> objective. You know, it's the same [85:13] reason why you think you're not [85:14] athletic. It's like you you can look at [85:16] yourself in a critical way and then see [85:18] what adjustments you have to make where [85:20] a lot of people are delusional. [85:21] >> Yeah. [85:22] >> And that delusional keeps you from [85:24] getting good at everything what you [85:26] perceive. Dude, you got to perspective [85:28] is everything. Like how are you seeing [85:29] things? And you always got to see it [85:31] from the internal not peaks and valleys [85:33] like this right here. Like we come home [85:35] and even through the airport like [85:36] there's no celebration like it is what [85:38] it is. I mean afterwards like peak no [85:41] celebration at the airport. And see what [85:43] we did. Someone was buying us drinks. [85:45] Like we got there. We got there a little [85:46] bit early. [85:46] >> Should have been a [ __ ] parade. [85:48] >> No. [85:49] >> I know. But I don't want that. [85:50] >> I know. I know you don't. I don't want [85:53] you. But I have to do it because I do [85:57] need to take advantage. Like I am the [85:59] champion. It's crazy. Still can't fathom [86:01] it. But I am the champion and I need to [86:04] I need to be the champion. [86:06] >> And be the champ enjoy being the [86:07] champion [86:08] >> for a little bit. And you need you to [86:10] look at yourself in the mirror and be [86:12] like there's times to sit back and have [86:14] bliss where you're like, "Man, I [86:15] freaking did it." Like there's times to [86:17] really [86:18] >> I thought it I thought that would come [86:19] down. [86:19] >> Doesn't mean you run down [ __ ] [86:20] yelling out different brands of [86:21] mayonnaise with no [ __ ] clothes [86:22] on and make bad decisions. You're like, [86:24] "What was that from?" Oh [ __ ] dude. We [86:25] did [ __ ] three fifths of [ __ ] [86:27] vodka. [86:29] >> Um, are you going to continue fighting [86:33] >> right now? I am planning on it. Yeah. [86:34] every [86:34] >> cuz you were talking about I don't have [86:37] again there's not [86:38] >> there's not something natural in me that [86:39] feels like it's over [86:42] >> so that's all I can say [86:43] >> also after a performance like that [86:46] >> yeah I mean I'm obviously perform [86:50] capitalized cuz the financial reward [86:52] >> financial capital but I'm in a I'm in a [86:54] place where it's like I deserve to be [86:57] compensated for what I have done [86:59] >> 100% [87:00] >> not for what I'm going to do or I don't [87:02] I shouldn't have to fight next to [87:04] like UFC 300, UFC 324, and now this. [87:09] Those are the biggest stages that the [87:11] UFC needed somebody to [87:14] to do something phenomenal. And they [87:16] picked me every single time. And and I [87:18] delivered. I wasn't the main event of [87:20] UFC 300, but co-main event still stole [87:22] the show even though I lost. [87:25] And so I think I I need to be [87:27] compensated for for what I've done. [87:30] >> That's where I'm at. So, you're talking [87:31] about in the future for like a next [87:32] fight [87:33] >> like [87:34] >> Yeah. Renegotiate. [87:35] >> No, no, no, no. I'm not talking about [87:37] for the next fight. I'm talking about [87:39] the UFC should make a company and give [87:42] me equity in that company and, you know, [87:44] so I can build [87:46] passive income like that. Like, I'm not [87:48] saying that's what that's [87:49] >> Have you talked to them about something? [87:50] >> No. No. I would I would I've never [87:52] asked. Luckily, I have a personal [87:53] assistant now, so she asks for things [87:55] for me, but I've never been the guy that [87:57] asks for things. I wish I wish people [88:00] that were opposite of me that ask for [88:01] things and get all kind of things. I [88:03] wish I was given those things without [88:05] asking because obviously people know [88:08] that it's appreciated and I like it, but [88:10] I'm not ever going to like I'm not [88:12] taking this truck from [ __ ] Armen. [88:13] There's absolutely no way I would take a [88:15] truck. He never shook my hand. [88:17] >> Oh, this is Armen Sarukin. We should [88:18] explain that. So Armen Sarukian he [88:22] he bet a million dollars on Justin [88:25] >> his friend [88:26] >> and won he won like 53 I believe [88:29] >> 57 [88:29] >> 57 what I heard 57 [88:32] >> say he's going to buy me a truck but I [88:33] mean I would kind of truck [88:35] >> well now I just saw yours [88:37] >> get a Raptor [88:38] >> I have a Shelby I have a Shelby Raptor [88:41] pretty dope but I I think now that I've [88:43] seen your truck that will be my next [88:45] truck [88:45] >> also it has USA on the side [88:47] >> you see the wrap I love that. You didn't [88:49] do that rap. [88:50] >> Tennessee does that rap. Hennessy is the [88:52] [ __ ] [88:52] >> I want that truck. [88:53] >> Oh, you need that truck. [88:54] >> Tell Arman to buy you that [ __ ] [88:56] truck. [88:56] >> No, I'm not taking the truck. [88:57] >> What the [ __ ] If I was Armen, I would [88:59] force it down your throat. I would I [89:00] would deliver it to your house and give [89:01] you a hug. [89:02] >> No way. [89:02] >> You won 5,700 [89:05] to ride around in a [ __ ] truck that a [89:07] dude bought from me every day. I don't [89:09] know. I just can't go that truck. You [89:11] won that truck. [89:11] >> We didn't shake on it. He does not own [89:13] it. [89:14] >> I don't give a [ __ ] Take that goddamn [89:15] truck with you, Joe. Yeah, take the [89:17] truck, dude. It's first of all, it's [89:19] cool. [89:20] >> Yeah. [89:21] >> And he might also be your next opponent. [89:22] >> Yeah. [89:24] >> I mean, that's possible. [89:25] >> That's [89:25] >> That's the guy. I mean, he's the guy. [89:27] >> Definitely the guy that's up. [89:28] >> That's the guy. I mean, if there's [89:30] anybody else in the division, that that [89:31] is the guy. [89:32] >> I mean, now that Islam is up at 170, who [89:35] else is there? That's the guy. [89:36] >> I agree. [89:37] >> Yeah. And what a division. I mean, holy [89:41] [ __ ] And now Charles is saying he wants [89:42] to [89:43] >> he wants to fight you BMFision BMF and [89:46] and the lightweight title on the line. [89:48] That would be crazy. [89:49] >> So there's fights available. [89:51] >> Yes, there is [89:52] >> big big. What do you What are your [89:53] thoughts like when you're thinking about [89:55] competing? Who do you think it will be? [89:56] You think it'll be Armen? [89:59] >> No, I I I can't say that I have a name. [90:03] >> Do you think Elie is going to try for a [90:04] rematch? [90:05] >> No, he doesn't get a rematch. He can [90:07] try, but he doesn't get one. [90:08] >> Wow. [90:09] >> He quit on the stool. He quit twice. I [90:10] stopped him twice. What else do I have [90:12] to [ __ ] do? Plus, his next challenge [90:16] can't be me. He needs to fight Patty or [90:19] someone like that. [90:20] >> Is Does Patty have a fight scheduled? [90:22] >> I think he's fighting [90:23] >> St. Sen. [90:24] >> Yeah. That's tough fight. [90:25] >> It is. [90:26] >> Yeah. [90:26] >> Ben tough game. It's a [ __ ] crazy [90:29] game, dude. [90:29] >> It's a crazy game. It's the craziest [90:31] game. I mean, think about where you were [90:34] when you lost to Max and then where you [90:36] are now. Just like think of the highs [90:38] and lows. [90:38] >> Wasn't that long ago either. was not [90:40] that long ago. [90:41] >> Now you got the the the the BMF champ [90:44] wanting to fight you. [90:45] >> I have every belt. [90:46] >> Like [90:47] >> I have three three belts. Three real [90:49] belts. Two ins. But those are [ __ ] [90:51] real belts. [90:52] >> Mhm. [90:53] >> A real belt, the BMF belt, and then the [90:55] UFC 250 belt. [90:57] >> Yeah, the UFC 250 belt. So cool, dude. [90:59] There's only two of those. So heavy. [91:00] It's heavy. That [ __ ] is freaking [91:03] >> Being a fan of this sport, like what? [91:04] You want to come in here and do things [91:06] that are not [91:08] easily attainable. And I've done a few [91:10] things that are impossible to obtain [91:12] attain. [91:14] >> Nine bonuses my first seven fights. [91:17] >> 16 fights in the UFC, I probably what, [91:18] like 12 main events. [91:21] >> Yeah. 17 fights. [91:23] >> And to be put in the main event of a UFC [91:25] fight is [ __ ] huge. Like, you know, [91:27] you go on the poster. Not many people [91:29] get to experience that. And I've done it [91:32] almost every single time. And so I mean, [91:35] yeah. I mean, it's I've done something [91:37] unattainable. [91:38] >> It's got to feel good. [91:39] >> It feels great. [91:40] >> It feels great. [91:42] >> It should as a fan [91:45] like you as a fan. It feels good, [91:47] >> right? As a fan of yourself. [91:48] >> As a fan of the sport. [91:49] >> As a fan of the sport, getting to see [91:51] what you've done. [91:52] >> Yeah. [91:52] >> What do you think about zero gone? [91:54] >> We didn't do so good to see it. Didn't [91:56] see it. We were [91:57] >> We were in the locker room like, "All [91:58] right, you guys are going to go to a [91:59] different staging room as soon as Bruce [92:01] Buffer starts announcing." So they took [92:03] us into a room with no screens. That's [92:06] probably where the video of me shadow [92:08] boxing with the flag. [92:09] >> Yeah, that's where So we were in that we [92:11] were in there for like 30 minutes before [92:13] I walked [92:14] >> and we could hear, [92:15] >> you know, a little bit [92:16] >> you hear the I heard the ding of the, [92:18] you know, the end of the round, the [92:19] horn. I was like, "Okay, was that round [92:21] one?" Yes. And then you hear nothing. [92:23] And then I didn't even hear the finish. [92:25] Like I didn't hear the crowd roar or [92:26] anything. And then I heard [92:29] >> and [92:30] still [92:31] >> Yep. [92:32] >> Right. [92:32] >> Yep. because he was he was [92:33] >> no no it said and new because they were [92:35] both gonna be new but then they said no [92:38] we heard gone we heard gone [92:40] >> yeah they heard gone I was like oh [ __ ] [92:42] he won [92:43] >> bro that guy moves like a cat [92:44] >> it's it's crazy he for a heavyweight I [92:47] love watching heavyweights that can move [92:48] like they remember the Mike Tyson era [92:50] just watching I was I love Mike watching [92:52] Mike Tyson and just watching all the [92:54] guys he fought [92:55] >> heavyweight boxing was so good at that [92:57] time people used to jump rope now it's [92:59] like like I'm not going to say that that [93:00] all heavyweights are are are lazy, but [93:03] you know, my knees are bad. I'm a big [93:05] person. Like, those guys can move. And [93:06] Serial Gan is one of those guys. [93:08] >> Well, he's the most so fast. [93:10] >> Well, think about him is he started out [93:12] as a basketball player. [93:14] >> So, think about basketball. It's all [93:15] these plyometrics. You're constantly [93:17] changing direction and moving and [93:18] jumping. [93:19] >> Yeah. Agility. [93:20] >> Yes. It's all agility. And that [93:21] translates so brilliantly to his [93:23] striking style because [93:25] >> you got a guy who's 248 lbs who moves [93:27] like a middleweight or moves like even [93:29] lighter than that. I mean, he really [93:31] moves like a welterweight almost. He's [93:32] fast. [93:33] >> Yeah. [93:33] >> And just very agile. And when you notice [93:36] it is like cuz you know how good Pereira [93:38] is and Pereira getting lit up on his [93:40] feet like that and then drop with a jab. [93:42] >> It's like woo. [93:43] >> Yeah. [93:44] >> Perfect time. [93:44] >> And it's heavyweights. Like those are [93:45] big dudes. Like like obviously Pereira's [93:48] put on some weight, but it's frame size. [93:51] >> Yeah. [93:51] >> It's you know and Pereira's got a big [93:53] frame, but it's [93:55] >> there's levels. [93:56] >> Your body's been that weight for a long [93:57] period of time. Like it's again that [93:59] consistency. It's a it's it's MMA guy [94:01] going into boxing. Yeah, there's shorter [94:03] rounds, but you're hitting sprints every [94:05] round. Like it's a different like [94:06] there's there's you have to do it for a [94:08] period of time to be able to adjust to [94:09] that. That's a different [94:10] >> it's everything that you do, you have to [94:12] slowly go into those positions. You [94:14] can't just jump into it. [94:15] >> And when you think about how big he was [94:16] at 205, it maybe would have even been [94:19] better for him to not really put on much [94:22] weight. [94:22] >> I agree 100% agree. [94:24] >> It's not like Sugro's a grappler [94:26] >> and you got to be fast. [94:27] >> Yeah, you got to be fast. [94:28] >> Like your speed's a factor. It's a giant [94:29] factor. And he's got insane power. I [94:32] mean, his power has always been [94:33] heavyweight power. [94:34] >> Absolutely. He's not going to lose his [94:36] power [94:36] >> because he was so big. He was 251. And I [94:38] was thinking, man, now it's like even [94:41] though you have more power, you're also [94:43] moving around with extra weight on your [94:45] body. Like you're you're weighed down [94:47] more by gravity. [94:50] >> I mean, Gan looked so light and so [94:52] loose. He's just like that style for a [94:55] heavyweight light on the toes like that [94:57] is so unusual. [94:58] >> And not allowing Pereira to set his [95:00] feet. [95:01] >> No, never. [95:02] >> Like that's very smart. [95:03] >> And even like figning takedowns. It's [95:05] not like he committed to those, but he's [95:06] got him thinking about. Look at how he [95:07] drops him with the Now here's the [95:09] question because one of the things that [95:12] Pereira is saying is a lot of there's a [95:14] illegal shot. A lot of the shots were [95:16] illegal into the back of the head, [95:17] >> but a lot of them were to the side of [95:19] the head. They're close. [95:20] >> They're close cuz it can also [95:22] >> when they when they explain it to you, [95:24] it's [95:26] >> it's a 2 in line down like a mohawk. [95:30] >> This this whole this whole apron right [95:32] here. [95:32] >> But it's like this is legal. This is [95:35] legal. This is legal. This is illegal. [95:38] Legal. Illegal. A couple of those shots [95:40] definitely landed illegally. But there's [95:43] hammer fist. Hammer fist. That first [95:44] one. Did you see him drop his head down [95:46] to the hips? So you're moving. That's [95:49] legal. That's illegal. [95:50] >> Yeah, there's a couple illegal ones. [95:52] >> There's probably three or four, [95:54] >> right? But it it's also movement and [95:56] chaos. It's not like he's trying to [95:58] deliberately [95:59] >> That's like poking someone in the eye on [96:00] purpose. Like if I was that good, I [96:02] would touch their chin, [96:03] >> right? How that's a lot smaller target. [96:06] >> Was the fight stopped there on the [96:08] ground? [96:08] >> No. No, it kept going. This is This is [96:10] actually the finish of the fight right [96:11] here. He caught him with a big elbow [96:13] right here and rocked him. I mean, [96:15] Pereira was in real trouble. I mean it [96:17] was he got [ __ ] up. [96:19] >> Yeah. [96:19] >> And Sirro Gan did a fantastic job. He [96:22] really put it on him. [96:23] >> Should you ever stop a championship [96:26] fight? [96:28] >> That was it right there. [96:29] >> I would have [96:30] >> at that point. [96:31] >> Stop it. I'm not saying it wasn't. I [96:33] haven't watched the fight. So [96:34] >> here here's the stoppage right here. You [96:35] can see it. [96:35] >> I haven't either and I'm just watching [96:37] this. Yeah, that's like he fell. [96:39] >> It was cumulative. It was so many blows. [96:42] Maybe he could have taken one or two [96:43] more after that for sure. But Pereira is [96:47] pissed off at Herb Dean and he's saying [96:49] Herb Dean should never referee again [96:50] because he allowed those shots to the [96:52] back of the head. [96:53] >> I mean you're in the moment. I mean [96:54] fight but that's natural for a fighter [96:56] to do like like well if a situation you [96:59] want to first off you got to bring [97:00] awareness to it so they're not you know [97:01] they're you have to [97:03] >> always be aware of hey I could have did [97:05] better here because that's how we all [97:06] grow. So we need to need to talk about [97:08] it. [97:09] >> But from what I just watched there and I [97:10] haven't watched the whole fight. Was the [97:11] fight competitive at all? [97:13] >> Yes. [97:13] >> Okay. The first round was very good. [97:14] >> Okay, so that would change a little [97:15] thing, but from what I just watched [97:17] right there at the end, that was uh [97:18] >> that looked like a good finish to me. [97:20] The first [97:20] >> the refs the refs have such a tough job. [97:22] I've been I'm notorious for being [97:24] >> really hard on these refs [97:26] >> because [97:29] I mean it's they you expect them to be [97:31] you you need them to be perfect. Their [97:33] their main job is to protect you. uh [97:36] when I fought Michael Chandler. I'm [97:38] still and again I only speak about it [97:41] now because I've never had a retraction [97:45] from the referee whenever he poked me in [97:47] the eye and then he [97:51] didn't get in between us and he let him [97:53] hit me with a huge shot and then he [97:56] doesn't give me my time to rest. not [97:59] rest to recover. And there was only five [98:01] seconds left in the round. So it turned [98:02] out that I got a break anyways. But he [98:05] goes in there, he says, "Are you good?" [98:07] I said, "No, I'm not good." He just [98:09] poked me in the [ __ ] eye and he says, [98:11] "Okay, but are you good?" And so then [98:12] it's like, "Can I still fight?" So I [98:15] said, "Yeah, I'm good." And he says, [98:17] "Okay, go." [98:18] >> Who what referee was this? [98:19] >> The guy with a braid that he puts in his [98:21] thing. [98:21] >> Oh, Mike Beltron. [98:22] >> Yeah, Mike Beltron. And so I was very [98:24] upset that he let Michael Taylor land [98:26] that that shot. And I I know why he was [98:29] so scared of the [ __ ] heat we were [98:31] throwing that he didn't want to jump in [98:34] there and get in the middle of it. But [98:35] his job is to protect me. And he failed. [98:38] He failed so bad right there. And so [98:40] like after the fact, I was like, I need [98:42] you to acknowledge this so that you do [98:44] not ever let that happen to another [98:46] athlete in there because you [ __ ] up [98:47] so bad. And you know, he's trying to [98:51] justify it. And it's like, what the [ __ ] [98:53] are you doing? How can you justify this? [98:55] Mhm. [98:56] >> And so that for me that that that pisses [98:58] me off and then the the decision not to [99:01] give me my time like [99:02] >> I need an explanation, [99:05] >> you know, and cuz I need to know that [99:06] you are going to learn from this [99:08] experience and for right now I still [99:10] believe that he doesn't think he did [99:12] anything wrong and so I'm still upset [99:14] about that. [99:15] >> Well, once you say to someone [99:16] >> because we're petty. We're petty, you [99:17] know. [99:18] >> Well, you should be in that situation [99:19] because when you say to someone you got [99:21] poked in the eye, are you good? And [99:23] you're like, "Yeah, I'm good, but I got [99:25] poked in the [ __ ] eye." And then [99:27] you're supposed to say five minutes. [99:29] >> One or two seconds, but are you good? I [99:31] said, "Well, yes, [99:32] >> you're supposed you're [99:34] good is not the right question. [99:36] >> You have five minutes. [99:38] >> Are you ready to fight? Can you see? Do [99:40] you need to bring in a doctor?" There's [99:41] a a series of questions, but the you [99:44] have five minutes is very important for [99:47] a fighter getting poked in the eye. You [99:49] have five minutes to recover. [99:50] >> Yeah. I didn't feel like I I didn't [99:51] know. I didn't know what the point. I [99:53] was I feel pressure in my face right [99:54] now. Like I don't this feels [99:56] >> you're not going to know for a couple [99:57] seconds and you're going to you're going [99:59] to blink a little bit, move around a [100:01] little bit. All right, I'm good. And [100:03] that's when you're it's supposed to be [100:04] very clear. That's when you're ready to [100:06] re-engage. [100:07] >> And that's what I'm saying. That's the [100:08] mistake he has to learn from cuz it was [100:10] such a And after the the round ends, I [100:12] walk over to him like, "Dude, get your [100:14] [ __ ] head out of your ass. What the [100:15] [ __ ] are you doing?" He's like, "Go to [100:17] your stool." I was like, "No, what the [100:18] [ __ ] are you doing? like your job is to [100:20] protect me. You just let me get hit with [100:22] a huge [ __ ] shot. What is going on? [100:24] And he's like, "Go to your stool. Go to [100:26] your stool." And I sit down and then [100:28] boom. Never thought about it again. But [100:30] still pissed off about that one. [100:32] >> You should be. I mean, that's uh that [100:33] makes sense. I mean, that's a mistake. [100:35] >> Um [100:37] who's the ref that against Khabib? [100:40] After the fight, he corners me in the [100:42] hallway and he's like, "Uh, you know, I [100:44] know you I know you would never [100:47] >> never tap." I was like, "I tapped three [100:50] times." He's like, "No, you would never [100:52] tap." I'm like, I'm like, "Dude, from [100:54] the horse's mouth, I'm telling you, I [100:57] tapped." And he still was like, "No, no, [100:59] you wouldn't tap." I was like, "What the [101:01] [ __ ] How can we get through this?" [101:03] >> Like, I tapped three times. I went to [101:05] sleep. [101:05] >> Tapped and you went to sleep. I've seen [101:07] that. [101:07] >> Yeah. I tapped three times. [101:08] >> 100% you tapped. [101:10] >> 100%. And then he's like, "No, you [101:11] would, you know, I know that you with [101:12] your the way that you compete." [101:14] >> Who's the referee? What's that guy's [101:16] name? I hate to throw I don't even want [101:17] to throw Herszog I don't even want to [101:19] throw him under the bus you know because [101:20] it's like [101:21] >> his intent his intentions were good for [101:24] me you know he believed I was [101:26] >> he gave you a chance [101:27] >> gave me a chance but like I [ __ ] [101:29] tapped man like I did the fight should [101:31] have been [101:31] >> and I went to sleep because of it and [101:32] luckily there's no detrimental and [101:34] chronic [101:36] >> you know long lasting problems because [101:39] of getting choked out [101:41] >> so I mean there's no repercussions yeah [101:43] there's no concussion there's no TBI [101:45] >> like it really is not detrimental at [101:47] all. As long as you don't hold it too [101:48] long and I die. As long as I wake up, [101:50] I'm good. [101:50] >> Right? [101:51] >> And so I was like, "Okay, like the [101:53] repercussions aren't as severe." And so [101:55] like whatever, I'll just let this go. [101:57] But ultimately, he [102:01] did. I mean, I was even when I told him [102:03] he didn't believe me. [102:03] >> That was the first thing you said when [102:04] you jumped up. You went over to him and [102:06] then you guys had the conversation [102:07] afterwards, but you went over to him [102:09] saying, "Dude, what the [ __ ] I tapped." [102:11] >> And then he's like, "No, you didn't." [102:12] And then then we seen him later. But [102:13] that was [102:14] >> No, you didn't. was like, "Dude, I [102:15] tapped three times. I tapped three [102:17] [ __ ] times." [102:18] >> Yeah, it was pretty obvious. [102:20] >> People make mistakes and they don't see. [102:21] >> And everyone was like, "Oh, you said, [102:23] you know, you're some kind of [ __ ] [102:24] you think you're some kind of Superman. [102:26] Why would you tap?" It's like when your [102:27] life is ending, [102:29] you know, you're a fool if you don't [102:31] understand that. Like, I knew I was [102:33] dying [102:34] >> and that's just where I was. [102:35] >> Yeah. [102:35] >> So, that's how crazy you are to [102:37] everybody. He's in their eyes are like, [102:38] "No, dude. Like, I know you better than [102:40] you do. You never tap." Like, [102:42] >> you kind of fight like that. That's what [102:44] I mean. People think the best [102:46] >> that's how he [102:46] >> the best thing up to this moment is [102:49] people [102:51] >> people don't give me credit for my [102:53] intellectual abilities. And I've also [102:56] played into that. And I've also [102:58] understood how big of an asset it is for [103:01] people to approach me like that. You [103:03] know, thinking that I'm just some animal [103:05] that doesn't [103:06] think or feel or whatever whatever [103:08] people think or think I'm [ __ ] [103:10] Well, I think what it is is when you are [103:12] such an animal, people think you can't [103:14] be smart because a smart person would be [103:16] aware of the consequences and wouldn't [103:18] have the courage to fight the way you [103:19] fight. That's all it is. And they and [103:22] people who don't have that kind of [103:23] courage, they like to dismiss people [103:25] that fight like savages because they go, [103:27] "Well, savages can't be smart." That's [103:29] not right. That's not correct. People, [103:32] it's like you see a really hot woman, [103:34] you go, she's got to be a [ __ ] Like, [103:36] no. Some of them are really [ __ ] [103:37] smart and also hot, you know, like like [103:40] the world is confusing and you can't [103:42] categorize people and put them into [103:44] things little little u you know, little [103:46] [ __ ] boxes just to make you feel [103:48] better. [103:48] >> Yeah, [103:49] >> that's all it is, you know, and you're [103:52] >> and the thing is I never signed up like [103:54] when we were walking out to the the [103:56] press conference, there's like 12 15,000 [103:59] people out there. I look at the guy, I [104:01] was like, "Dude, I never ever signed up [104:03] to be a public speaker. What the [ __ ] [104:05] are we doing here? Like I never wanted [104:07] to be in this where I talk in front of [104:09] this many people. Like that's not what I [104:11] prepared myself for ever. And now I'm in [104:13] this situation where I have to, you [104:15] know, every single word I get I say [104:17] before these fights is analyzed by the [104:19] world. Like the whole, you know, my [104:21] father is my dad. Like [104:24] sometimes I get tongue tied. [104:26] >> Sometimes I miss I do too and I talk for [104:29] a living. [104:30] >> That's what I mean. But but nobody if [104:32] people unders if had to listen to [104:34] themselves, they would understand that [104:35] they also make mistakes. And so it's [104:37] like, [104:38] >> [ __ ] man. Like I can't be perfect. I'm [104:40] sorry. I I really wish I didn't meet my [104:42] dad as my father. Even though, [104:44] >> you know, it [ __ ] makes sense. And [104:47] it's true. [104:49] >> Listen, you you're dealing with a bunch [104:51] of people that have to write stories. [104:52] They have to. [104:53] >> It's not It's not about writing a story [104:55] because something's interesting. They [104:56] have to make a story. No matter what it [104:59] is, there [105:00] is to create content. And when you your [105:03] job is to create content, you make [105:04] content out of nothing. And it's not [105:07] usually it's usually not good. [105:09] >> And that's what they're doing. They're [105:10] making great deals out of nothing. [105:11] >> If I could have been mentally coached, [105:13] it would have been in that aspect. [105:15] >> Public speaking [105:16] >> just like [105:17] >> I think you speak very well. [105:19] >> No, no, it's like uh I there's just I [105:21] guess there's no lesson to learn like [105:23] you just have to do it. It's through [105:25] experience. [105:25] >> It's like fighting. You just do it a [105:26] bunch of times and you get comfortable [105:27] with it. Or you're naturally talented [105:29] like Connor. [105:30] >> You know who the [ __ ] is that guy? [105:32] >> Smart guy. [105:32] >> Yeah, [105:33] >> he's great at that. Like he's fantastic [105:35] at that [ __ ] I mean that's where he [105:36] shines. [105:37] >> You ain't lying. You are like Tom Petty. [105:40] >> Tom Petty and Heartbreakers. You are [105:42] Petty, dude. Who cares what people [105:44] think? [105:44] >> I think he speaks great, right? [105:46] >> I like, you know, I like to see what [105:48] people are saying about my our interview [105:50] and, you know, because I want to see the [105:52] perception. I want to [105:54] >> just keep inspiring. [105:55] >> Yeah. The thing is, you're asking for [105:57] the perceptions from people that you [105:58] would probably never [ __ ] talk to in [106:00] real life because they're dumb and [106:02] annoying. And those are the people that [106:05] are most likely going to comment. The [106:07] people that are most likely going to You [106:08] think Michael Jordan's out there leaving [106:09] YouTube comments? No. Right. It's not [106:11] people that have their [ __ ] [ __ ] [106:12] together and have big goals. People who [106:14] are really dialed in and really [ __ ] [106:17] disciplined and the people whose [106:18] opinions you'd respect, they're not [106:20] leaving comments. [106:22] >> They're certainly not leaving shitty [106:24] comments. You nailed that. That's [106:25] >> It's just the reality. And I'm not [106:27] hating on these people. I'm just saying [106:28] like I would have been one of them. If [106:30] you if somebody gave me a [ __ ] [106:32] YouTube account when I was 17, I'd be [106:34] posting the most horrible [ __ ] about [106:36] everybody, [106:37] >> right? Everybody would. You're a kid. [106:38] You're or you're a dumbass. You don't [106:40] have your life together yet. But that's [106:41] the type you can't listen to them and [106:43] take that as gospel cuz it's just not. [106:46] >> Just seeing him walk through the airport [106:47] and just everybody's perception when [106:49] they see you and meet you is so great, [106:51] dude. Like it's like people that like [106:54] like [106:55] >> bro the haters if the haters met you [106:58] they're like bro I'm a big fan. [106:59] >> Yeah. But still but it's but one of [107:00] those things is like the inspiration on [107:02] people like the everybody comes up and [107:04] they're your favorite fighter. Like to [107:05] have the brand that you're the the your [107:07] favorite fighter favorite fighter like [107:10] that is unique. [107:11] >> Yeah. [107:11] >> That is like such a cool thing. Like you [107:14] just keep inspiring and [107:15] >> very proud of it. [107:15] >> Be you. [107:16] >> You should be [107:18] >> should be so proud. You should be. [107:19] >> Yeah. So, um, I asked you after the [107:22] fight if you were going to fight again. [107:23] You said you promised your mom you [107:25] weren't going to make a decision. And [107:27] so, it just settled in. I mean, we're [107:29] today we're here. It's Friday. The fight [107:31] was just Sunday, so it was five days [107:32] ago. [107:33] >> So, now you're just like, [ __ ] you [107:35] can't. How do you not after that? I [107:36] mean, you're the [ __ ] champ. It would [107:37] be great to go out like that. It'd be [107:39] the an amazing cap, but also [107:44] great to have at least one more. [107:46] >> Yeah, [107:48] we'll see. People like to watch chaos at [107:51] the highest level controlled chaos. [107:54] >> You know, it'll never be that chaos [107:56] again because it'll never be like [107:58] >> It's hard to understand [107:59] >> fighter jet flyovers. And [108:00] >> it's hard to understand how dangerous [108:01] this game is if you don't do it [108:03] >> right. [108:04] >> And so [108:05] >> is it impossible? [108:06] >> Yeah. [108:07] >> Yeah. [108:07] >> So that'll be a huge [108:09] >> that's a huge factor. There's a lot [108:10] there's a lot of variables that I have [108:13] to contemplate when it comes to that [108:15] decision. [108:17] Do you have a timeline in your head? [108:19] >> I do know. So, you can't remember a time [108:23] I've fought two times in six months in [108:24] the UFC. I fought two times this year [108:27] already in less than six months. And so, [108:31] I'm going to take the rest of the year. [108:32] I need my body to heal that. I I mean, I [108:35] have [108:37] what's the [ __ ] diagnosis? I have a [108:40] severe [108:42] bone edema in the tip of my fibula. That [108:45] happened on Christmas and I have been [108:47] dealing with that since Christmas day. [108:49] >> So a bone ble bleed like a bruised [108:52] bruise. Yeah, it's in the bone marrow of [108:53] the tip of my fibula. Tip of my tibula [108:56] clacked against my femur [108:58] >> and it caused a hu a deep deep bruise [109:01] and I cannot get it to heal because I [109:02] went, you know, I was going through [109:04] training camp. It really hurt after the [109:05] Patty fight. [109:07] >> When are you leaving? When when are you [109:09] leaving today? [109:10] >> Will you fly out at like 6:30? [109:12] >> It's 3:00. I got I want to see if I can [109:14] get you into waste. Well, let me text [109:16] Brighgum and see if they could [109:18] >> jab some [ __ ] stem cells in there [109:20] before you [109:20] >> I mean I've got I I've gone to Vegas. [109:22] I've got stem cells multiple times PRP [109:25] special place. [109:26] >> PRP put me on crutches. It was crazy. [109:28] And then I did a cortisone shot um the [109:31] Friday before I left. [109:33] >> Wow. [109:33] >> And that that helped a lot. [109:35] >> Well, not training is really what it [109:37] needs, right? And have you been doing [109:39] any hyperbaric train chamber stuff? [109:41] >> No. That's huge for recovery. [109:43] >> You have no idea how against my process [109:47] you guys would be. I mean, I think I got [109:49] two I probably had two [109:51] >> massages this camp. [109:56] >> That's amazing. Well, it's really funny [109:58] if you look at the difference between [110:00] Ilia has a u YouTube channel as well [110:04] where it's fantastic really goes into [110:07] depth, but they're using like all this [110:10] high techch neuro stimulation head gear [110:12] and he's doing all these different [110:14] things and it's all [110:15] >> You seen the video? It's got him doing [110:17] that and then me taking a 420 [110:18] >> dab. Exactly. Did you see our video [110:22] where he had the the the dog chocker on [110:25] his forehead? Every time he got straight [110:26] with his legs, it got flat. I hit the [110:28] button. [110:29] Bent his legs again. [110:31] >> No, we uh [110:33] covered our eyes and threw balls at each [110:35] other [110:36] >> trying to tap into those intuitive [110:37] abilities. [110:38] >> Yeah, right. Yeah. With your eyes [110:39] closed. [110:39] >> But I mean, dude, like [110:41] >> you're funny. [110:43] >> I come from the [ __ ] dirt, you know? [110:45] My parents [ __ ] up. They didn't put a [110:47] golf club in my hand at four years old. [110:48] They threw me in the dirt and you know I [110:51] became comfortable with the [110:53] uncomfortable. [110:54] >> That's a giant factor though. Being [110:57] comfortable with being uncomfortable is [110:59] a huge asset. [111:00] >> Yeah. [111:01] >> It's such a [111:02] >> It is [111:02] >> with everything in life. With everything [111:04] in life. [111:04] >> I think wrestling is definitely [111:07] definitely has the biggest variable when [111:09] it comes to my success. I mean the [111:11] mental the mental side of it like [111:15] nobody can it's very similar to fighting [111:18] in the fact that nobody can help you you [111:20] know it is against you all the blame is [111:22] on you all the success goes to you and [111:26] you can never [111:28] use somebody else as an excuse any team [111:30] setting I played football I played [111:31] baseball soccer swim team swim team's a [111:34] little different but you know there's [111:36] always a justification for why you [111:39] failed or why you lost when it comes to [111:42] those and you could always [111:45] point to somewhere else or at least a [111:47] piece even if it's one or two% somebody [111:49] else's fault then it then you can [111:51] justify it the loss [111:53] >> in in wrestling that's never the case [111:55] >> not only that it's a combat sport that's [111:57] acceptable in high school like it's a [111:59] combat sport that you take in junior [112:01] high school you take in high school and [112:03] kids learn like there's there's guys out [112:05] there that are different they're working [112:07] harder than you more aggressive than you [112:09] They want it more than you. They put in [112:12] more time than you. [112:13] >> And that's a learn that's a lesson [112:15] that's very valuable when a kid cuz kids [112:18] get delusional about what their [112:20] abilities are, how special they are, who [112:21] they are. When you get [ __ ] flatlined [112:24] by some dude who just [ __ ] picks you [112:25] up and slams you on your back and pins [112:27] you and you're like, and he could do it [112:29] anytime he wants. And this is the [112:30] reality of training with this guy. Like [112:32] over and over and over again. You're [112:33] like, "Oh, great. He lateral drops you [112:35] in front of the whole class. Oh great." [112:37] like this is this is reality now. You [112:40] either going to get better [112:41] >> or this is going to keep happening to [112:43] you over and over and over again. And [112:44] the mental toughness that comes out of [112:46] kids that grind it out in wrestling and [112:48] learn how to wrestle uncomfortable, [112:50] learn how to cut weight at an early age, [112:53] >> all that shit's terrible for you, but [112:55] the mental aspect of it is [ __ ] [112:57] undeniable. Think about how many great [113:00] wrestlers have become great MMA [113:02] champions. Absolutely. [113:03] >> It's the most important foundation. [113:04] great business people like they I [113:06] watched a study a long time ago. They [113:08] said that the boxing and wrestling uh [113:10] created the best employees because [113:12] accountability. [113:13] >> Yes. you know, and again, the cutting [113:15] the weight like you're responsible. Like [113:16] that's this that's this what I love [113:17] about Justin is [113:19] >> what makes it so nice to train him is [113:22] and highle people like I've had the luck [113:24] to be able to train some highle guys [113:26] lately and I don't have to deal with any [113:28] [ __ ] like you know and it's if I hold [113:30] myself accountable then there's we don't [113:32] have to have these deep conversations or [113:34] get our feelings hurt that we're just [113:35] true to it. His accountability for [113:37] everything is just there's there's [113:39] nothing like it and I I credit that to [113:41] his parents. His parents are just such [113:43] amazing people and the way that they had [113:45] raised him to hold, you know, cuz he [113:47] screwed up a lot as a kid. I I told him [113:48] if we were hanging out when we were [113:49] younger, we got a lot of trouble cuz he [113:51] reminded me of myself, super hyper like [113:53] like making super bad decisions, but [113:55] getting punished, getting grounded, [113:56] getting not not being able to go out [113:58] late at night, like strict parents and [114:00] that being able to understand that there [114:03] is rules in life and you have to be [114:04] accountable. If you screw up, you got to [114:06] deal with the punishment and that is it [114:08] comes from your parents and I agree. [114:10] parents being such good people. Um, [114:15] so my mindset has always since I was a [114:17] kid, I have looked up, so the reason I [114:19] take comments online [114:22] and I read them, I've always looked up [114:25] and given every single person I've ever [114:27] interacted with the benefit of the doubt [114:29] of being good. And whether it's what [114:34] they're saying, what they're doing, [114:35] their actions, everybody's been my role [114:37] model. I've never never looked at myself [114:40] as a role model. I've always looked at [114:42] whether no matter what I even strangers [114:45] like I trust that they're going to that [114:48] they're good and that's where I start my [114:51] that's where I start everywhere from and [114:54] um so reading comments online like I I [114:57] truly take into account what what I'm [114:59] reading you know and I don't know why [115:02] cuz I know it doesn't matter a lot of [115:04] the times a lot of these probably [115:05] [ __ ] 13 14 year old kids but I in my [115:08] mind they're 50-year-old you know men [115:10] with the experience and I just try to [115:12] use as much and as much of the readily [115:16] available information, comments, words, [115:19] action as I can from a place of like I [115:23] feel like a child in a sense when it [115:26] comes to like interacting with people. [115:28] And I don't know, I don't know why [115:29] that's how I take it or that's how I do [115:31] it, but it makes everything, you know, a [115:33] little bit better and I'm not as [115:35] disappointed as much because like once I [115:37] learn that they're not that or they're [115:40] not good and they can't help me, then I [115:42] don't be like, "Oh, that's a bad [115:43] person." I'm just like, "Okay, I'm not [115:45] going to have that experience again." [115:48] >> Well, that's a good perspective. It [115:49] sounds like you use it then. And that's [115:51] listen, everyone's different and if you [115:53] can handle it and you don't get mentally [115:54] ill from reading comments, [115:56] >> that's a rare you're a rare person. [115:58] >> We had many conversations. [116:01] That's what my [116:03] >> I went to school for human service. I [116:05] love to help people. You have no idea [116:06] how much joy it brings me to assist [116:10] people to make people's life better to [116:12] lift someone's spirit. I mean those that [116:15] is what makes me feel alive and that [116:18] comes through my faith um and through my [116:20] parents. You know my parents are such [116:21] good people. They deserve so much more [116:24] than than most parents because of their [116:27] actions and their example that they [116:28] showed for me. And yeah, I'm just so [116:31] grateful to be the person that I am [116:35] because, you know, it makes life easier. [116:37] Life is easy. Life is so easy when [116:39] you're not concerned about what people [116:41] think, when you're not worried about [116:43] things that you can't control. [116:45] >> Well, it's also easy if you're a good [116:46] person. [116:47] >> Well, but I couldn't be a good person [116:49] without the example of my parents. You [116:51] have no idea how good [116:53] >> and naive my parents are. And when I say [116:56] naive, it's in such a good way [116:58] >> because they haven't [117:00] done the bad things that most of us have [117:03] done. And I and I failed him. And the [117:07] last time I ever did drugs, I woke up in [117:11] an ambulance and I'm pretty sure I died. [117:14] And I was like, I will never [ __ ] do [117:15] that again. My parents do not deserve [117:17] that. And that was probably 2016. [117:21] >> Wow. [117:21] >> And I was like, I will never touch that [117:23] again ever. My parents do not deserve [117:25] that. And that was that's why I'm here. [117:29] >> Well, good for you, dude. [117:31] That's awesome. And it's great that you [117:33] have such an awesome relationship with [117:34] your parents and it really does seem [117:36] like that attitude that you have is very [117:38] freeing [117:39] >> in a lot of ways. [117:40] >> It is. It really is. [117:42] >> Yeah. [117:42] >> Golf, [117:44] >> weed. [117:46] >> Trevor, let's talk about those gloves. [117:48] What the [ __ ] do we have to do to get [117:50] your gloves into the UFC? It doesn't [117:52] make any sense that we're using inferior [117:54] gloves. [117:55] >> Wait, I want Obviously, I want to talk [117:57] about this, but the gloves I fought in [117:59] this week were different. They are [118:02] >> they felt they it was a different it was [118:05] the same same glove the leather was [118:07] different. It was a little bit thicker I [118:09] think and so it was softer and so every [118:13] time I've ever fought I've had the most [118:14] excruciating pain in between my hands [118:17] right here and I didn't feel that at all [118:18] this fight [118:20] >> because they were thicker. So it's like [118:21] if you have like a thinner material [118:23] going through it's going to cut through [118:24] the skin a little easier tighter [118:26] material. This was looser [118:28] >> because it was thicker. It was weird. So [118:31] it was better [118:32] >> better [118:32] >> better for that feeling that all [118:34] fighters [118:34] >> better for comfortability. Yeah. Like [118:36] you guys have no idea how uncomfortable [118:37] we are when we [118:38] >> you're always like pulling on the glove [118:39] to pull it back. It's like getting a [118:40] hand wrap too tight and you get those [118:42] little things between [118:43] >> pulling on the tongue here. [118:44] >> So you make a fist squeezes harder. [118:46] >> Mhm. [118:48] >> But he this guy's a genius. He can [118:49] [ __ ] make anything. [118:50] >> Uh so Hunter reached out to me three [118:53] weeks ago, four weeks ago and said he [118:55] wanted to ignite the conversation again. [118:57] So we'll see where that goes. But uh you [118:59] know uh from that first position that we [119:00] were in uh a lot of things happened uh [119:03] in a great thing. I always told you it [119:05] was going to be timing. Timing is [119:06] everything. And uh they did the right [119:08] thing and tried to make what we had [119:10] spoke about. You know we had NDA and uh [119:12] uh we had a 5-year and they moved it to [119:14] a two-year. Took a lot of great notes [119:16] and I'm very grateful to be a part of [119:18] those because they did go out there and [119:19] use a lot of the ideas that I had. Uh [119:22] but they just couldn't do it uh to the [119:24] level that I could do it. and uh I I [119:26] thought it was super cool that they were [119:27] trying cuz uh it was a it's a problem [119:29] that they don't really see and [119:30] understand. So I think they're they're [119:32] in the right mindset and you know them [119:34] helping the athletes I thought was a [119:36] great great thing to do. Uh but during [119:39] that time when I was going to talk to I [119:40] actually brought the gloves and it was [119:42] when you were fighting on 300 uh we were [119:45] out there and I I had a new patent that [119:47] I had been working on so we could go [119:49] opposite direction if they want to own [119:50] it. It's a separate patent from the [119:52] patent that I had that goes in all of [119:53] our products, the internal strapping. [119:55] This was a new patent still with [119:57] internal strapping, but a a more dialed [119:59] in for it fight glove. And then we had [120:01] those two options. And then when we got [120:03] there, Ali had told me that uh they're [120:05] releasing a new glove. And uh so we [120:08] have, you know, two versions now, which [120:10] is super cool. And uh yeah, I think [120:12] it'll go great. [120:14] >> Here's the conversation, though. Like [120:16] what are you trying to fix? [120:18] >> Eye pokes. [120:19] >> Okay. Eye pokes are big. [120:20] >> That is not possible. [120:22] >> You don't think it's possible to make [120:23] less eye pokes? [120:24] >> You can make less. [120:25] >> You can make less, but you'll never [120:27] stop. [120:27] >> You're never going to stop. Well, of [120:28] course, you're not going to stop it [120:29] because the fingers are out. [120:30] >> The issue is the athlete. The issue is [120:34] the comfortability of the athlete and [120:36] the performance of the athlete. That is [120:38] where your um ambition has to lie when [120:43] it comes to making the glove better [120:45] because the thing the gloves we're [120:48] fighting in now are [ __ ] terrible. [120:50] You have no they uh it's hard to make a [120:53] fist. You have to use your entire muscle [120:55] of your arm to make a fist. And so by [120:57] the time we get to the fight, this is [120:58] already [120:59] >> um your [121:00] >> exhausted exhausted. And then the [121:03] pressure in between your fingers is like [121:06] something you can't replicate. [121:08] >> Let me ask you this. Do you think it's [121:10] possible to make something that's like a [121:11] mitten? Something that covers over the [121:13] tips of the fingers. You would have [121:15] [ __ ] 80% less eye pokes. [121:18] >> I do think you could do that in time. I [121:20] don't think that's that change is hard [121:22] for everybody, Joe. And that's a huge [121:24] change for grapplers and things like [121:26] that. But but so you're a grappler. So [121:28] you're a grappler. Most people are going [121:30] to say, "Well, that's going to affect [121:31] this or my certain lock or uh you know, [121:34] they try it, but again, it's it's [121:36] >> it would enhance it." The only the [121:38] problem would be like rear naked chokes [121:40] like getting the hand behind the head. [121:41] You have more thickness like it's [121:42] regular gloves are a problem already. [121:44] But is it more of a problem just to have [121:46] the fingers covered with the regular [121:48] glove? I think it's the same. It might [121:49] actually [121:50] >> it might actually even slip in better. [121:52] But the thing is it's like covering the [121:54] tips with like a mitten like those old [121:57] school Everlast bag gloves. I just don't [121:59] I think it's a different sport now. [122:00] >> But why? You can still clinch. You can [122:02] still do everything. That's what I'm [122:03] talking about. You take guys to the [122:04] ground, everything's the same. You can [122:06] still grapple. [122:06] >> This is telling me so much right now. [122:08] Like, and if you take that away from me. [122:10] Yeah. [122:10] >> Right. [122:11] >> Like that is a that's a huge factor when [122:13] it comes to intuitive abilities. [122:15] >> Okay. Like explain that to me. Like what [122:17] are you feeling with your fingertips [122:19] that you think would be missing? [122:20] >> Well, it's not the fingert It's when you [122:23] It's my hand. Like he moves away. He he [122:25] moves any direction. like I can make [122:27] that read and now he's farther and now [122:29] he's there. [122:30] >> Right. [122:30] >> And I think if you're going to take [122:32] touch away from us that would deter our [122:35] intuitive abilities. [122:37] >> I wonder I wonder how much [122:39] >> but I also think you have to understand [122:42] where as a fighter for me it's like when [122:45] I am relaxed when I'm relaxed and if my [122:48] hand can be in this position when I'm [122:49] relaxed then I'm okay then then then [122:52] there's not going to be as many eye [122:54] pokes. But when I relax and it goes like [122:56] this, [122:56] >> right? [122:57] >> Like and now I have the gloves force [122:59] your hand. Now I have to do this. I'm [123:01] naturally You're never going to take the [123:02] human reaction and instinct away to [123:04] protect yourself. And the instinct to [123:06] protect yourself is [123:08] >> no, right? Like [123:09] >> that is the instinct. It's natural. It's [123:12] intuitive and it has to be that because [123:14] >> you're trying to get your your chin [123:16] tucked behind your shoulders so that you [123:19] don't get hit. But the uncomfortability [123:22] and like the strenuous [123:25] >> effort it takes to make a fist is [123:28] [ __ ] stupid. [123:29] >> It's stupid. And this is the difference [123:30] between your gloves and the current UFC [123:32] gloves. [123:33] >> My gloves your hand. My My gloves are [123:35] are one of those things that [123:36] >> it promotes a natural hand. [123:38] >> Natural position, a better grip, better [123:41] fist position where I'm not when I [123:42] squeeze my fist and I have the wrap on, [123:44] it doesn't pull my hand up like this. [123:45] And when you see guys touch gloves, [123:47] they're usually like this. [123:49] >> Uhhuh. Not like this, right? And it's [123:51] lining the bones up for, you know, [123:52] again, they they said that the last [123:54] gloves were causing less knockouts. Our [123:56] gloves were going to cause more [123:57] knockouts because of better hand [123:58] position, better grip strength. I'm [124:00] being able to have holds like if I'm [124:01] holding someone's [124:02] >> protection for your hands, less broken [124:04] hands and internal strapping. Like that [124:06] is a huge thing. Like my goal at a [124:08] certain point would to have where you [124:10] can't have hand wraps on. [124:12] >> Like if you have a glove that's actually [124:13] protecting your hand, [124:15] >> but you have the gloves on that now it's [124:17] equal 100%. Because if you got one [124:19] person that adds more more padding or [124:22] less padding or double layers tape, like [124:24] there's many different things that you [124:25] can do. And that to me, it's like if if [124:29] I if one fighter has tape wrapping their [124:31] hands and then the other one has house [124:33] wrapping their hands, they're wrapping [124:34] differently. Which one's better for [124:36] breaks? Which one's better for punching? [124:37] Like [124:38] >> like so having that that's would be [124:40] really cool. And that's that's the [124:42] difference with like like our gloves. [124:43] I'll show you. I've never broke my hand [124:45] when he's ever taped my hands. [124:47] >> Like his tape job is I I can't wait to [124:51] show it off to the commission. Every [124:52] single time I'm like, "Look at that. [124:55] >> Tell me you've seen a better one than [124:56] that tonight." And every time they're [124:58] like, "I don't think so." [125:00] >> You got gloves. [125:02] >> Of course you did. Of course you did. [125:05] They're my favorite by far. And ladies [125:07] and gentlemen at home, if you're just [125:09] listening, the difference between [125:11] Trevor's gloves and everybody else's [125:12] gloves. One of the big differences is [125:14] that you could see if you're looking at [125:16] on see how they're curved, folks. Looks [125:18] like a hand. [125:18] >> The regular gloves from the UFC are not. [125:20] They're straight just like this. So [125:22] these gloves promote a natural punching [125:25] position. Look, without even putting [125:27] them on, they're already in that [125:28] position. And then when you put them on, [125:30] they're damn near perfect. The padding [125:32] is amazing. They're fantastic to hit the [125:34] bag with. They're just [ __ ] awesome. [125:37] And they and more importantly, look how [125:39] what they promote. So my hand is totally [125:41] dead relaxed and it promotes a closed [125:44] fist position. [125:45] >> The cool part, Joe, is this. This is [125:46] what I was talking about. [125:47] >> So this is a he's doing the internal [125:49] strapping right now. [125:50] >> This strap is coming from over here. So [125:52] that's going to pull this in. As you [125:53] notice, we got pad on the side. So [125:54] there's no like the all the other [125:56] gloves, the padding [125:58] coming down on a single knuckle. But [125:59] again, this strap is going to really [126:01] seal you in. [126:02] >> Oh, yeah. Uh, and then this one. So, [126:06] >> Oh, so these are better than the last [126:07] ones you brought here. Oh, this is [126:08] [ __ ] fantastic. [126:09] >> Listen, I've been dialing in finding the [126:11] right product. [126:12] >> Oh my god. You don't even need hand [126:13] wraps. Well, you had told me before that [126:15] when you hit the bag with his gloves, [126:17] his bag gloves. [126:17] >> I haven't used I haven't wrapped my [126:19] hands since 2015. [126:20] >> Piper doesn't fight with hand wraps on, [126:22] which is crazy. You guys don't. [126:24] >> And it can get to the point if we have [126:26] the right protection. It's awesome. [126:28] >> This is so superior to the UFC gloves. I [126:31] mean, the fact that this isn't being [126:32] used [126:33] >> by the UFC right now is [ __ ] crazy. [126:35] >> We're going to get it done. [126:36] >> I hope so. Hey, you know what? I've been [126:38] trying so hard. [126:38] >> I stepped away from like the business [126:40] this part. I'm the visionary now. So, I [126:42] got right people that know how to make [126:43] deals. So, it's it's right and that the [126:45] UFC is going to be happy because [126:46] >> we were ready. [126:47] >> Yeah, dude. I'm They're like, "Dude, you [126:49] know, I don't think [126:50] >> that was me versus Kabib. [126:52] >> I take full responsibility." [126:53] >> Oh, I believe it [126:54] >> that I didn't know that you could do [126:56] deals all these different ways. You [126:57] know, when they'd say what they wanted [126:58] to do, I was like, "Yeah, that's not [126:59] healthy." [127:00] >> This feels so good. It's so better. [127:02] >> So better. [127:02] >> It's just much better. It's like [127:04] >> when you put it on the back, I want to [127:06] hit something. [127:06] >> Well, this is one of the things that I [127:08] love about you is that you're so [ __ ] [127:10] creative with stuff and you're you're [127:12] constantly trying to [127:13] >> Every single piece of equipment I have [127:15] trained with for the last [127:16] >> Dude, these So, we see so many. [127:19] >> So, this is your training bag, your [127:20] training. [127:21] >> Yeah, that's that's what I train in. [127:22] Yep. [127:22] >> Nice. [127:23] >> I hit pads in that. Never. I've never [127:25] wore hand wraps once. [127:27] >> Oh, that's fantastic. [127:28] >> Thumb in there. But watch how you can't [127:29] open uh your hand to to go straight out. [127:33] >> Mhm. [127:33] >> And then the pointer knuckle protecting [127:35] that pointer knuckle is so big. [127:40] >> Yeah. [127:42] >> Yeah. That's it, right? Nice. Oh, it's [127:45] so nice. [127:45] >> Yeah. Then you you open you can still [127:47] grip, [127:48] >> right? You can still grip grab things. [127:50] It hardened chokes. [127:51] >> And the and the door knocking knuckles. [127:52] This is what lands a lot. people with [127:54] those. [127:54] >> I bet you do. [127:55] >> You got to go palm to palm, right? But [127:57] still, it's just [127:58] >> Those are yours, too. [127:59] >> Fantastic. Oh, thank you. [128:00] >> Yeah. And then I got you another pair of [128:01] X Factors, too, cuz [128:03] >> you got big hands. So, I remember I gave [128:05] you the 60s. You're like, "Bro, things [128:06] ain't going to work for me." [128:08] >> Yeah. I got big hands for a little dude. [128:10] Unusual. [128:11] >> Yeah, we'll we'll get it done. But, uh I [128:13] mean, [128:14] >> anytime you want to. [128:15] >> I'm so happy. I'm so happy you're going [128:16] to get it done cuz I pushed for it so [128:18] many times. I brought it up to Dana. I [128:20] brought it up to everybody. I was like, [128:21] "Listen, what the [ __ ] are we doing? You [128:23] guys spent a million billion dollars [128:25] trying to make these new gloves. You got [128:26] rid of them in 3 months." [128:27] >> That's cuz And this [128:30] >> could sound bad. That's cuz they've [128:32] never [128:34] thought about the fighter. [128:35] >> But they did. They tried. They tried to [128:37] make me. They tried. They tried. [128:39] >> They didn't [ __ ] try. [128:40] >> Yeah, they did, dude. They You know how [128:41] much money? I'm not going to tell you [128:42] how much money they put. They put They [128:44] did, dude. [128:45] >> To do what? To give me the same exact [128:46] [ __ ] product. [128:47] >> They thought they were making a bet. [128:48] They hired people that people don't know [128:50] what the [ __ ] they're doing. [128:51] >> They hired a company that works on [128:52] football. [128:53] >> What did they change in their glove? [128:54] >> But they don't know. They They took the [128:56] ideas. At least they tried. They did. I [128:58] will give them 100% correct. [128:59] >> They did try. But I remember seeing the [129:01] gloves when they tried and going, "These [129:03] suck. These are not as good." I'm like, [129:05] right away I was still uncomfortable. [129:07] Still hurt my hand. I said to him right [129:08] away, "Why don't you just get Trevor's [129:09] gloves? What the [ __ ] are we doing [129:10] here?" No, these are good. These are [129:11] good. [129:12] >> Get the [ __ ] [129:14] The best gloves exist. They're already [129:16] made. Like there's only a few people out [129:18] there that are willing to like really [129:20] get creative and redesign and engineer [129:24] gloves. And when someone does it to the [129:26] extent that you've done it, like God. [129:28] >> So Joe, when you think about that, [129:30] >> that's that's where I think I fit in [129:32] well with this because I want to evolve [129:34] with the company. And if we change one [129:36] thing, like my first thing I want to do [129:38] is help a performance. I don't want [129:39] someone to hurt their hand where all a [129:40] sudden I hurt my hand on the top of your [129:42] head and I just left-handed now and [129:44] everybody just, you know, there's no [129:45] pay-per-view now, but I pay to watch [129:47] these fights. And now the guy that I [129:49] wanted to see fight can't continue [129:50] because he hurt his hand. So, we fixed [129:52] that problem. We fixed longer, better [129:54] grip strength for the the grapplers who [129:56] are going to need to have wrist control [129:57] when throwing shots. I want to help [129:59] athletes perform. And as we go, let's [130:01] slowly develop and test with the [130:03] athletes and find out what because it's [130:05] about the athlete. It's what works for [130:06] them. And when we can get gloves on [130:08] people and try something like you were [130:10] talking about, that'll take time. You [130:11] have to train it and go, "Oh, I actually [130:13] like this better." And there's the pros [130:14] and cons. There's pros and cons to [130:15] everything, right? So, [130:17] >> it would take time. And that's where [130:19] where I'm passionate about is let's find [130:21] a problem and let me think through [130:23] solving it. But I need to know what that [130:24] >> problem gear. And we should send [130:26] everybody to your website. It's is it [130:27] Onyx? [130:28] >> Yeah. Oxports. Onyx.com. Yep. A lot of [130:31] people spell it with a gloves. The best [130:34] shin pads. [130:35] >> You have the best equipment. And it's [130:36] [ __ ] phenomenal. There it is right [130:38] there. That's the website. Onyx Sports. [130:41] It's [ __ ] fantastic stuff. I mean, [130:43] it's really obvious that it's a highle [130:45] coach who's developed all this [ __ ] I [130:47] mean, everything you make is top of the [130:49] food chain. [130:49] >> Got the best tester in the world, baby. [130:52] My heart, dude. [130:53] >> I [ __ ] break everything. [130:54] >> I'm sure. [130:55] >> And I can't I cannot I cannot break [130:56] these gloves. I cannot break these [130:58] gloves. I have to switch every like six [131:00] months because [131:02] >> I wear the foam out so much. So, I don't [131:04] ever want to hurt my [131:05] >> But you got two or three sessions of [131:06] training every day. Like that's for a [131:08] typical person, these gloves are going [131:09] to last well over I uh Cory had his [131:12] shinuards for four years. [131:14] >> I had my shin guards for like three [131:15] years. [131:15] >> Yeah. [131:16] >> And when you think about the amount of [131:17] damage that that three years entails, [131:20] that's pretty [ __ ] incredible for [131:21] pieces of leather and foam. Yeah. You're [131:24] so much [ __ ] [131:25] >> soaked with sweat. Everything's getting [131:26] broken down and moisturized and then [131:29] drying out again and crap. [131:31] >> Hey, that's the our bags that were up [131:32] there. Mhm. [131:33] >> Dude, we got connectors for the shin [131:35] guards and the knee pads on the outside. [131:36] So, all your equipment is on the outside [131:38] of the bag to dry. [131:39] >> Yeah. So, that's that's really cool, [131:41] too. So, just trying to rethink uh how [131:43] things work. So, [131:44] >> that's what I love about the way you [131:45] approach things. You're always like [131:46] fixing the problem. [131:47] >> I can't stand when we're not even [131:49] working on kickboxing and someone's [131:50] kicking and it's because they're [ __ ] [131:52] gear. You know, [131:52] >> that was the worst thing about fixing my [131:54] nose [ __ ] smelling people. I was [131:56] like, "Oh my god, people." [131:59] >> You know how the gym is, especially with [132:00] geese, right? Like you get that bro like [132:02] >> the dudes who don't wash their geese. [132:04] Those guys are That's That's a real [132:06] problem. [132:06] >> It's a real problem. [132:07] >> And those are the ones who always give [132:08] you [ __ ] cooties, too, [132:09] >> dude. Oh, [132:10] >> right. [132:10] >> So nasty. [132:11] >> Yeah, it's nasty. Listen, Justin. Uh I [132:14] just want I'm so glad you're not going [132:15] to fight to the end of the year like for [132:18] whenever. Just enjoy that cuz that was a [132:20] [ __ ] masterpiece. Yes, [132:22] >> sir. [132:22] >> It was beautiful to be there. [132:24] >> And I I felt so [132:28] >> American. I felt so hard to represent [132:31] this country because we're such a [132:32] melting pot [132:33] >> and I think I have done it. I think I [132:35] achieved that and so I'm very very proud [132:37] of that. [132:37] >> Dude, you did it in spades. I mean, you [132:39] did it five stars. It was [ __ ] [132:41] phenomenal. It was one of the greatest [132:43] events that any sporting event has ever [132:46] put on. I mean, maybe the greatest [132:48] sporting event in the history of the [132:49] world. [132:49] >> I said it before, this is going to be [132:50] like some Miracle on Ice [ __ ] [132:52] >> It was, man. It really was. [132:54] >> I knew I knew I knew I had the [132:55] opportunity to do something special. [132:56] >> He did it and then he come down [133:00] Yeah, I want to see my family. [133:02] >> It was incredible. That was so cool. [133:05] >> Look how cool that is. [133:06] >> Look how cool that is. That is so [133:08] amazing. That's so [ __ ] amazing. [133:10] >> It was an amazing night, dude. I'm so [133:12] happy I went. I'm so happy I was there [133:14] to see it live. It was a real [133:16] >> I was I was honestly really nervous, [133:17] Joe. I was like, "Dude, there's like [133:19] just again being around everybody and [133:21] something could happen. The drones that [133:23] could, you know, that they stopped." [133:24] Like [133:25] >> again, I wasn't knowing what to expect [133:27] and then tell after the fight cuz again, [133:29] we couldn't take it in. It was a [133:30] beautiful thing. And Justin, [133:31] >> I was like, "Fuck it. If I get taken out [133:32] in the middle of the cage, how [ __ ] [133:34] legendary would that be?" [133:35] >> I said to Trump, I go, "I hope we don't [133:37] die in a terrorist attack." I said to [133:39] Trump, "I hope we don't die in a [133:40] terrorist attack." He goes, "We got to [133:41] go somehow." [133:43] >> I go, [133:43] >> that's funny. Yeah. Like this everyone [133:46] will remember it for the rest of [133:47] eternity. [133:48] >> But no, I'll pass. [133:49] >> Sign me up. [133:51] >> Better the way it went. The way it went. [133:53] Way better. That's a way better outcome. [133:55] >> Way better. Well, hey, brother. Thank [133:56] you for coming here. Congratulations. [133:59] >> Masterpiece. Both of you. [134:01] >> Let's go hunting. I want to go hunting. [134:02] I just got uh I'm going to shoot. [134:04] >> I saw this on the Go Hunt website. You [134:07] went analopee hunting. [134:08] >> Yeah, that's awesome. Do you see [134:11] thousand yard shot, [134:12] >> dude? Check it out. Check it out. [134:14] We [ __ ] missed our ass off. We were [134:16] in the It was windy. These things do not [134:18] stop moving. They could see us forever. [134:20] And they just kept going. And we were on [134:23] shoot. We couldn't get prone. So, we had [134:24] to, you know, you you're every hunt [134:26] you're like, I'm going to have a prone [134:28] position. I'm going to shoot from [134:29] >> We cannot get in a prone position. So, [134:31] we're on shooting sticks trying to [134:32] manipulate the sticks and take shots. [134:36] >> We were prehistoric. [134:38] >> So, Luke Luke misses from 140 yards. [134:41] >> Dude, the story was so [134:43] Luke 1,093 yards and [134:47] >> hits it in the head, drops it [134:49] >> and we're just like, "What the [ __ ] [134:52] Luke? How [134:53] >> How do you hit that shot and miss 100?" [134:56] This is uh Yeah. Look at this. [134:57] >> Wow. That's crazy. [134:59] >> 1922. [134:59] >> Was he shooting for the head? [135:01] >> No, I don't even know if he hit it. I [135:03] mean, it was shot in the neck. Yeah. He [135:06] got her in the neck. It was Well, 1,000 [135:08] yards. Who knows how much [135:10] >> you're just trying to hit the center of [135:11] the [ __ ] target. Boy, and these crazy [135:13] prairies, too. The kind of wind drift [135:14] you're dealing with, [135:14] >> dude. And they they don't they can see [135:16] for miles. These things do not stop [135:18] moving. [135:18] >> No, they're they evolved to get away [135:20] from cheetahs. They used to be North [135:22] American cheetahs. [135:23] >> And so, North America, this is all [135:24] before the younger dest. So, it was like [135:28] when somewhere around 11,800 years ago, [135:31] 65% of all North American mammals went [135:34] extinct. And there was American lion [135:36] that was bigger than the African lion. [135:38] And then there was a cheetah. And these [135:40] [ __ ] these guys evolved to get away [135:42] from cheetahs. So they can run like 55 [135:44] miles an hour for [ __ ] [ __ ] crazy [135:48] though. Evolution. Wow. When you look at [135:50] them, they look prehistoric. Their [135:51] eyeballs are like way out here. [135:53] >> It's crazy how good a decoy works with [135:54] them though. [135:55] >> Oh, horses too. Guys walk right up on [135:57] them on horses. [135:58] >> Get a muk thing. Just walk right behind [136:01] that. [136:02] >> Walk right behind them and then you can [136:03] That's how archery hunters do it a lot [136:05] >> cuz you have to get Yeah. [136:06] >> Very tough to sneak sneak up on them. [136:08] Do you do bow hunt? Do you ever bow [136:10] hunt? [136:12] >> No. [136:12] >> No. Would you want to learn? You would [136:14] love it. Fall in love with it. Just like [136:17] I have a bow. [136:17] >> Just hasn't hunted. [136:18] >> I shot an elk and did not recover it. [136:21] And I've told myself that I will never [136:24] go [136:25] >> archery hunting unless I have the time [136:26] and effort [136:28] >> to be 100% ready to make that shot. [136:31] Right. [136:31] >> And so right now it's just rifle. [136:33] >> Well, rifle is always going to be the [136:35] most effective way. It's still an [136:36] awesome way. Who's white tail in Arizona [136:38] is my favorite hunt. [136:39] >> Oh, really? [136:40] >> You should go on that with me one of [136:41] these days. [136:42] >> That's a fun hunt. Those are tiny little [136:44] guys. The little gray ghost. [136:45] >> I grew up there, so my my buddies their [136:47] whole life have looked We could go out [136:49] there. We wouldn't find [ __ ] right? [136:51] >> They're [ __ ] everywhere, but find [136:53] them. [136:54] >> They call them the gray ghost, and my [136:55] buddies can find them. And it's such a [136:57] fun hunt. [136:58] >> Yeah, it's a great hunt. Well, Arizona [136:59] is a great hunting state, too. You have [137:00] some of the best elk in the country. [137:02] >> Yep. [137:02] >> Yeah. Gentlemen, again, congratulations. [137:06] Absolute masterpiece Sunday night one [137:08] for history. One of maybe the greatest [137:11] event in the history of the sport. [137:13] >> I mean Joe Rogan again, baby. [137:15] >> Anytime. Let's do it one more time. [137:17] Let's do it one more time when you do [137:18] decide to wrap it up. Thank you guys. [137:20] Thank you. And onyxports.com. Get the [137:22] best clubs in the world. [137:23] >> My brother. Thank you. All right. Bye.