Hyperliquid Pitches CFTC on Regulating Market Deployers Over Protocol

Hyperliquid向CFTC建言：应监管市场部署者而非底层协议 Hyperliquid联合创始人Jeff Yan主张，美国监管机构可通过监管第三方合约部署者而非基础协议来实现对全天候链上交易的监督，并将区块链比作中立的互联网基础设施，以数学上可验证的代码取代人工审计。 Jeff Yan阐述了Hyperliquid作为专用Layer 1区块链的运作机制，该链专为在一个中立且高性能的基础层上承载全球金融而设计。他详细介绍了该协议的技术机制，包括其自主链上清算引擎（HyperCore）、用于市场部署的无需许可的31小时荷兰式拍卖，以及将永续合约锚定至现实世界资产所需的价格预言机。Yan还谈到了中立基础协议与独立市场部署者之间的权责分离，指出传统机构可将Hyperliquid视作“金融领域的AWS”，而监管机构亦可在部署者层面实施监督，而无需扼杀底层基础设施。 Hyperliquid作为专为承载全球金融而设计的Layer 1协议运行，通过HyperCore利用自主链上清算来消除交易所对手方风险，同时支持全天候全时段交易。 (5:00) 在Hyperliquid上部署合成永续合约需要锁定500,000枚HYPE代币，并赢得一项旨在跨全球时区持续循环运行的31小时荷兰式拍卖。 (16:47) 为防范突发市场操纵和连环清算，该协议通过数学算法将连续的预言机价格更新限制在最大不超过1%的偏差范围内。 (54:55) 该网络通过质押排名前27位的活跃验证者集合维持共识，这些验证者运行在配备约128 GB RAM的标准商用硬件上，而非大型数据中心。 (40:00)

Hyperliquid co-founder Jeff Yan outlines his ambition to turn the custom Layer 1 blockchain into a neutral, 24/7 financial base layer that replaces centralized exchange infrastructure with deterministic consensus and on-chain clearing. Consensus Rails and Autonomous Clearing Engine (10:00) Hyperliquid approaches market architecture by treating the blockchain as a messaging and consensus framework rather than a traditional broker-dealer. Operating under Byzantine fault tolerance assumptions where at least two-thirds of the staked validators must behave honestly, the network maintains a deterministic global state even if up to one-third of validators fail. Jeff Yan argues that relying on decentralized validators eliminates the single points of failure inherent in centralized exchanges and off-chain vendor stacks, providing continuous uptime for high-throughput market execution. At the execution level, trading mechanics are governed by an on-chain state submodule termed HyperCore. When traders enter positions in perpetual contracts, matching occurs in a central limit order book against USDC collateral. Unlike conventional brokerages that rely on discretionary margin calls or off-chain risk systems, HyperCore programmatically tracks collateral ratios against real-time oracle price feeds. If maintenance margin limits are breached, the protocol autonomously liquidates collateral into the order book without human intervention. Deployer Economics and Order Book Auctions (16:47) Rather than allowing users to issue arbitrary tokens or contracts at will, Hyperliquid requires external sponsors to deploy synthetic perpetual markets through defined economic hurdles. Under protocol rules such as HIP-3, prospective deployers must lock and stake a minimum threshold of 500,000 HYPE tokens to unlock market-creation functionality. Deployers configure contract parameters, leverage limits, and price oracle feeds while inheriting Hyperliquid's native order book, clearing modules, and Circle-backed USDC settlement rails. Because each perpetual contract operates its own on-chain order book and consumes finite validator compute, deployment access is allocated through periodic 31-hour Dutch auctions. The 31-hour window was chosen because it is relatively prime to 24, rotating auction closings across global time zones. The price of an order book slot descends linearly until the first bidder accepts, and the subsequent auction automatically resets to twice the winning price. Yan explains that this structure avoids the transaction spamming, sniping, and gas-fee bidding wars typical of sealed-bid or English auctions. Oracle Dependency and State Clamping Protections (20:00) Perpetual contracts lack fixed expiration dates, necessitating a continuous external reference point known as a price oracle. While spot crypto trades natively, real-world assets such as crude oil, equities, and equity indices rely on dedicated third-party publishers pushing off-chain price data onto the blockchain. Yan notes that although perpetuals typically reference continuous spot feeds, 24/7 contracts can still engage in independent price discovery over weekends when traditional venues are closed, realigning through funding rate payments when underlying cash markets reopen. To address the risk of oracle manipulation and sudden price distortions—such as those seen in past decentralized exchange exploits—the protocol implements strict mathematical boundaries. Hyperliquid enforces an automated rule capping relative oracle price updates at 1% between consecutive steps. If a publisher submits a price deviating by 2%, the network automatically clamps the update to a 1% shift, requiring subsequent updates to move further. This rule prevents sudden price jumps from crashing the liquidation engine while preserving protocol neutrality. Hardware Requirements and Institutional Positioning (40:00) Yan distinguishes Hyperliquid's Layer 1 infrastructure from networks that require data centers or custom server arrangements. Hyperliquid Labs does not run the blockchain; active consensus is maintained by the top 27 validators ranked by stake, out of a total pool in the thirties. Node requirements are centered around standard workstation-level specifications, typically requiring around 128 gigabytes of RAM rather than specialized enterprise hardware. Rather than seeking to displace established financial institutions, Yan positions the protocol as the financial equivalent of Amazon Web Services—a foundational utility that asset managers, ETF sponsors, and brokers can adopt to enhance their products. In response to regulatory interest from the U.S. and statements by Donald Trump, Yan suggests that oversight logically attaches to individual market deployers rather than the neutral base protocol, comparing the Layer 1 rails to unregulated internet standards like TCP/IP while regulatory bodies like the CFTC focus on entities managing market interfaces. While Hyperliquid aims to accommodate global financial volume on-chain, its model relies on whether external deployers reliably manage oracle risk and whether financial regulators will accept that automated, verifiable code properties can substitute for traditional compliance processes.

Hyperliquid Labs 联合创始人兼首席执行官 Jeff Yan 认为，Hyperliquid 的核心定位是承载全球金融体系的中立 Layer-1 基础设施，旨在通过将中心化交易所的高性能撮合与区块链的去信任、自主托管账本相结合，重构现代金融的底层清算与交易架构。 底层共识与链上自主清算架构 (10:00) Jeff Yan 指出，金融区块链的核心价值在于拜占庭容错（BFT）共识所提供的全局状态一致性。只要网络中超过三分之二的质押权益诚实运行，分布式验证节点即可自主维系高吞吐账本，从根本上消除了中心化交易所因单一技术供应商故障而导致全盘停摆的单点风险。在硬件门槛上，Hyperliquid 避免了超大规模数据中心的重资产模式，其网络活跃共识由质押量排名前 27 位的验证节点维系，硬件需求仅为配置约 128 GB 内存的高端通用工作站即可顺畅运行。 在具体的交易执行与风控层面，协议通过底层状态机内嵌的 HyperCore 模块实现全自动清算。当投资者的账户权益跌破维持保证金要求时，HyperCore 会根据链上预言机价格直接触发链上违约清算瀑布，在中央限价订单簿中强制平仓。这一流程完全剔除了传统券商依赖人工自由裁量或链外风控引擎的干预模式，以数学确定性保护对手方资产安全并杜绝交易违约风险。 市场部署与 31 小时荷兰拍卖 (23:38) 在 Hyperliquid 架构中，外部机构（如 TradeXYZ）并非“发行”而是“部署”合成资产永续合约。部署者无需重复开发撮合系统、风控模块或结算渠道，而是直接复用网络原生的订单簿引擎、清算机制以及基于 Circle 的 USDC 抵押流动性通道。由于运行独立的链上订单簿和保证金引擎会持续占用验证节点的计算带宽，HIP-3 提案设立了严格准入门槛：申请部署新市场的实体必须在链上锁定并质押至少 500,000 枚原生 HYPE 代币。 为了去中心化地分配有限的市场席位，协议采用了按 31 小时间隔循环进行的链上荷兰式拍卖。Yan 解释称，31 与 24 互质，这一时间跨度能确保拍卖截止时间在各个全球时区间动态轮换，避免特定地理区域的竞标者获得垄断优势。拍卖价格随时间线性递减，由首个出价者中标，且下一轮起拍价自动重置为前次成交价的两倍。这种博弈设计消除了传统密封拍卖中常见的恶意刷单与尾盘抢跑行为，迫使部署者审慎评估资产的实际真实需求。 预言机护栏与 24/7 衍生品定价权 (50:35) 永续合约无需物理交割或固定到期日，其价格锚定完全依靠链外预言机（Oracle）推送标的现货价格。针对市场对衍生品规模过大可能操纵脆弱现货市场的担忧（如历史上的 Mango Markets 事件），Yan 认为衍生品体量超越底层现货属于成熟金融市场的健康现象（例如标普 500 指数期货的长期交易规模）。只要套利做市商具备在资产出现小幅价差时进场纠偏的动力，衍生品订单簿本身就能有效承担真实的价格发现职能。为防止恶性操纵，协议在底层设置了强制数学护栏：相邻两次预言机报价之间的价格变动幅度被严格限制在 1% 以内，超额偏离将被程序化平滑，以避免清算逻辑发生灾难性震荡。 此外，Hyperliquid 突破了传统金融交易所的营业时间限制。在伊朗冲突爆发导致地缘政治动荡期间，全球投机者曾在周日凌晨传统交易所（如 CME、ICE）闭市时，涌入平台交易 WTI 和布伦特原油合约。Yan 阐明，即使底层现货市场休市，永续合约依然可以在自身订单簿上展开自由价格发现，并在现货市场开盘后通过资金费率（Funding Rate）机制逐步完成基差收敛。 金融业的 AWS 愿景与分层监管路径 (56:55) Yan 将 Hyperliquid 描绘为“金融领域的 AWS”，而非传统大型金融机构的破坏者。他认为订单簿、清算引擎与流动性分发网络本质上是中立的基础设施“原语”（Primitives），诸如 VanEck 或 State Street 等传统资管机构未来完全可以将 Hyperliquid 作为后台技术栈，同时继续保留其面对终端客户的品牌声誉与展业资质。 针对唐纳德·特朗普此前公开提及促成 Hyperliquid 合规引入美国市场的言论，Yan 提出了“协议底层与应用部署层分离”的监管构想：基础 Layer-1 网络的作用类似于互联网的 TCP/IP 协议，本身属于中立的技术管道；真正对合约参数与前端风控负有直接操作权限的“市场部署者”，才是合规审查与反洗钱监管的精准落脚点。Yan 认为，美国 CFTC 等机构的核心监管原则在技术上是中立的，行业融合的关键在于让监管方认识到链上透明度能够将传统金融中依赖人工报表的事后流程，转化为可通过数学代码即时核实的一致性属性（例如实时全额审计链上 USDC 储备与用户账户余额的完全对齐）。 Hyperliquid 验证了将全品类衍生品与现实资产迁移至全天候去中心化账本上的工程可行性，但其宏伟愿景仍伴随着结构性限制：一方面，合成永续合约仅提供价格敞口而无实际股权及股息索偿权，其对未上市科技公司投资的“平民化”程度仍存估值争议；另一方面，离岸原生加密团队向受监管华尔街核心圈层的渗透，最终仍取决于监管机构是否愿意以链上可验证代码替代既有的人工审查审计范式。

## Background 本期节目由彭博社（Bloomberg）旗下的金融播客《Odd Lots》于 2026 年 10 月 15 日发布在 RSS 及网络音频平台。节目简介指出，在今年中东地缘冲突期间，投机者通过基于区块链的 24/7 全天候交易平台 Hyperliquid 交易原油，引发了全球交易员和市场观察人士的广泛关注；随后特朗普公开表示 CFTC 正推进将其合规引入美国，节目邀请到 Hyperliquid Labs 首席执行官兼联合创始人 Jeff Yan，深入拆解该底层协议的运行机制、生态架构与在美合规前景。 ## TL;DR Hyperliquid Labs 联合创始人兼 CEO Jeff Yan 深入阐释了 Hyperliquid 的技术架构与其“承载全部金融体系”的宏大愿景。节目解析了该平台如何通过自主构建的高性能 L1 区块链、链上清算引擎 Hypercore、去中心化预言机以及永续合约（Perps）机制，在保持极低消费级硬件门槛的同时实现单一全局状态与全天候交易。Jeff 探讨了利用荷兰式拍卖分配市场部署席位（HIP-3）的博弈设计，并回应了团队匿名性、价格操纵防御以及将基础设施层与受监管部署方分离开来的潜在合规路径。主持人随后复盘指出，无论平台本身最终走向如何，永续合约这一金融原语与链上确定性审计机制正在深刻重塑现代交易基础设施。 ## Atmosphere & style 对谈在《Odd Lots》标志性的专业金融宏观视角与硬核加密技术极客思维的碰撞中展开，基调兼具严谨的求证态度与轻松风趣的行话调侃。主持人针对美国合规边界、做市操纵风险及中心化治理争议频繁提出尖锐追问，而 Jeff Yan 始终保持着前量化交易员特有的冷静、缜密与技术乐观主义，用清晰的工程逻辑一一化解质疑。整场交流既充斥着对彭博终端代码、高频做市商套利机制的行业切口探讨，也洋溢着一种见证传统金融华尔街与链上原生秩序正在发生历史性交汇的兴奋与张力。 ## Bulletin - `40:00` Hyperliquid 旨在构建承载全部金融体系的中立底层协议，其验证者网络可在仅需 128 GB 内存的普通消费级硬件上运行，通过单一全局状态实现 7×24 小时的链上撮合与自主清算。 - `01:00:00` 针对特朗普提及推进该平台合法进入美国市场，CEO Jeff Yan 强调协议遵循底层去中心化规范，未来更可行的合规路径是由拥有控制权的外部市场部署者承担监管责任，而非监管底层协议本身。 - `22:58` 新交易市场的创设受 HIP-3 标准约束，需质押 500,000 枚 HYPE 代币并通过以 31 小时为周期的链上荷兰式拍卖竞逐稀缺计算席位，从机制上杜绝了网络拥堵与垃圾代币泛滥。 - `55:00` 永续合约交易量即便远超底层现货亦能维持健康运转；协议在底层硬性限制单次预言机喂价波动不超过 1%，以防止瞬时跳价引发无序清算。 ## Key takeaways - `00:00` 现代金融市场呈现“倒金字塔”结构，实体底层资产规模相对萎缩，而衍生品、杠杆产品与预测市场等上层建筑层层嵌套并极速扩张。 - `05:00` Hyperliquid 将自身定位为超越割裂电子交易市场的阶梯式改进，目标是成为聚合流动性并承载全球金融活动的中立基础设施。 - `10:00` Hyperliquid 依赖超过三分之二非拜占庭质押节点达成全球一致账本，且市场是否由受监管实体运营与底层链是否去中心化在架构上完全独立。 - `12:35` 平台的永续合约交易对手方采用中央限价订单簿模式，其清算引擎 Hypercore 直接内嵌于区块链状态中全自动执行，无需依赖中心化违约瀑布流。 - `16:30` 外部实体部署市场需质押 500,000 枚 HYPE 原生代币并配置链上预言机，部署方直接继承底层的高并发订单簿与清算能力。 - `22:58` 稀缺部署席位采用 31 小时周期的链上荷兰式拍卖分配，互质周期保证了全球各时区的公平参与，首位出价即中标的设计杜绝了网络尾盘抢跑。 - `25:52` 传统市场企业过晚 IPO 导致早期造富红利被封闭机构瓜分，链上无门槛的永续合约打破了地理与时间限制，推动了金融准入的民主化。 - `30:00` Jeff Yan 创立 Hyperliquid 的初衷是在保留中心化交易所低延迟极速体验的同时，利用区块链实现用户资产的完全自托管，根除对手方挪用风险。 - `37:00` Hyperliquid 选择自研高性能专用 L1 公链而非复用现有网络，其路径类似于早期云计算巨头 AWS 被迫自建底层技术栈以支撑上层应用。 - `40:00` 全网由质押量排名前 27 位的活跃验证者出块，节点仅需 128 GB 内存等消费级硬件即可运行，打破了高性能区块链必须依赖专用超算的刻板印象。 - `45:45` 平台采用双层信任模型：用户对协议仅假设其节点代码严格符合技术规范，而针对特定资产价格与参数的信用风险完全由用户与具体部署方承担。 - `50:00` 永续合约成交量无须受制于现货成交量，只要底层存在套利做市商，衍生品市场率先完成价格发现反而有助于真实价值的传导与表达。 - `55:00` 协议层内置数学约束以平滑外部喂价，强制限制单次预言机价格更新幅度不得超过 1%，防止连续状态机因瞬时暴跌触发连锁强平。 - `55:00` 原油等标的在传统休市期间仍可依靠供需自由浮动定价，开盘后资金费率机制会恢复运作并促使衍生品价格向标的现货价格收敛。 - `58:00` Hyperliquid 并不寻求颠覆传统资产管理巨头，而是希望扮演金融领域的 AWS 角色，为具备深厚用户信任的成熟金融中介提供先进的技术底座。 - `01:00:00` 监管应落在掌握具体市场控制权的部署者层级，而公链凭借数学可证明的确定性账本审计，能在效率上超越传统依赖人工流程的事后核查。 ## Detailed walkthrough ### `00:00` 金融工具的“倒金字塔”与市场金融化 节目录制于 10 月 13 日。主持人 Joe Weisenthal 和 Tracy Alloway 谈及他们即将前往芝加哥拜访交易行业的传奇人物。两人感慨，虽然去过多次芝加哥，却从未真正参观过那里的交易大厅，而当下正是与交易圈交流的绝佳时机，整个交易市场正在发生剧烈演变，比如预测市场（Prediction Markets）的异军突起。 现在的金融市场已经进入一种“万物皆可相互映射与嵌套”的阶段：股票可以被代币化（Tokenized），加密代币可以被打包进 ETF，预测市场可以通过押注某只股票的走势在功能上等同于持有该股票，甚至完美复刻出股票的经济收益。交易者表达某种观点所能使用的工具与平台之丰富，呈现出一种“超级金融化”（Financialization on steroids）的态势。 Tracy Alloway 提出了一个关于传统媒体与现代金融的“倒金字塔”类比：在传统媒体时代，金字塔底部是扎实的原创新闻调查与独家爆料（Scoop），其上才是评论、社论和视频；然而今天的媒体生态彻底倒置，原创新闻只占最底层最微小的一部分，其上堆叠了海量的二次衍生内容。 这种现象在金融领域如出一辙：资产标的（Underlying）本身变成了市场中最小的一块，而在其之上层层搭建了庞大的衍生品、期货、期权乃至现在的预测市场。以韩国半导体巨头 SK 海力士（SK Hynix）为例，原本只是一家公司及其股票，随后衍生出 ADR（美国存托凭证）、3 倍杠杆 ADR、链上代币化版本，甚至可能出现“预测 SK 海力士未来 10 分钟收盘价”的预测市场合约。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 现代金融的倒金字塔结构 accDescr: 展示从底层微小的基础资产向上海量衍生工具层层嵌套放大的倒金字塔形态。 subgraph Derivatives["衍生层（庞大的上层建筑）"] PM["预测市场 / 超短期合约"] Leveraged["杠杆产品（如 3x ADR） / 代币化资产"] TraditionalDeriv["传统衍生品（期货、期权、ADR）"] end subgraph Base["底层标的（狭小的基底）"] Asset["实体企业与基础现货股票"] end Asset --> TraditionalDeriv TraditionalDeriv --> Leveraged Leveraged --> PM ``` - 现代金融市场中，底层真实资产（Underlying）所占比例不断萎缩，上层衍生交易结构持续极速扩张。 - 代币化（Tokenization）、ETF 化以及预测市场的交织，使得任何资产的经济收益都能通过多种全新渠道被合成与表达。 ### `05:00` 认识 Hyperliquid：容纳所有金融交易的中立协议 在关于区块链统一碎片化市场的讨论中，平台 Hyperliquid 迅速脱颖而出。它在加密交易圈内备受狂热推崇，但对大众而言仍未达到家喻户晓的程度。虽然这家机构素以行事隐秘、极少接受媒体采访著称，但其创始人兼 Hyperliquid Labs 首席执行官 Jeff Yan 来到了录音室现场。 当被问及“什么是 Hyperliquid”时，Jeff Yan 将其定义为一个旨在承载所有金融活动的基础协议。他将这一转变与数十年前电子交易取代场内人工喊价（Pit Trading）的划时代飞跃相提并论： > “We view Hyperliquid, the protocol as a sort of step function improvement over electronic but fragmented markets.” —— Jeff Yan Jeff Yan 指出，过去的电子交易虽然高效，但各市场之间高度割裂；Hyperliquid 的目标就是充当一个中立的金融底座，将碎片化的电子市场彻底聚合在一起。 - Hyperliquid 核心愿景：打造一个中立的基础层，最终承载整个人类金融体系的运行（Housing all of finance）。 - 行业地位定位：如同电子交易相比红马甲人工喊价是一次跨越式升级，Hyperliquid 致力于成为超越现有割裂电子市场的全新阶梯式改进。 ### `07:15` 特朗普的提及与美国监管的互动 Hyperliquid 引起主流关注的一个标志性事件发生在不久前：唐纳德·特朗普公开提及该平台，并表示美国商品期货交易委员会（CFTC）正在积极推进，试图让 Hyperliquid 以完全合规、合法的方式进入美国市场。 Jeff Yan 坦言，当听到特朗普公开谈论 Hyperliquid 时，他本人事先毫不知情，“那对我来说是一个巨大的意外”（That was a huge surprise to me）。 Jeff Yan 借此厘清了生态系统内部的职能边界： 1. **Hyperliquid 协议本身**：一条中立的区块链底层，由全球一组无需许可的验证者（Permissionless set of validators）共同维护，形成全局统一且具备一致性的状态视图。 2. **Hyperliquid Labs**：由 Jeff Yan 领导的技术开发团队，团队规模极小（Super small team），专注于为这条区块链构建核心底层技术。 3. **前端界面与合规现状**：目前包括官方前端 Hyperliquid.xyz 在内的诸多应用界面，其服务条款中均明确禁止美国用户使用该协议上的衍生品交易服务。 对于 CFTC 和美国政府的态度，Jeff Yan 分析认为，现届政府似乎对将金融迁移至链上轨道持有一种前瞻且积极的立场。这体现了一种技术主义视角，即认可链上轨道确实能从技术底层显著改善金融市场的运行效率，因此监管者不应采取极其严苛、一刀切的压制态度，而应当主动寻找机制，将这些去中心化前沿技术安全地吸纳并融入现有的金融体系框架之中。 ### `10:00` 区块链协议的本质：让去中心化验证节点达成全球一致账本 谈到 Hyperliquid 底层所谓的“协议（Protocol）”，Jeff Yan 解释称，它在概念上与互联网底层的 HTTP 或 TCP 协议并无本质区别，本质上是一套“消息传递框架（Messaging Framework）”，供网络中的不同验证节点（Validators）依照共同的规则进行通讯。但与单纯传输信息的传统网络协议不同，区块链协议具有强烈的金融与状态属性。在 Hyperliquid 的系统假设下，只要全网超过三分之二的质押权益掌握在“非拜占庭（Non-Byzantine）”节点手中——即遵循正常协议规则运作——整个网络就能自发达成对世界状态的统一视图，而无需预先假设其他中心化信任。 Jeff Yan 强调，这种“全网统一账本”是整个全球金融体系金字塔的最底层基石。无论是每一笔账户的资产余额，还是各类资产的最新成交价与标记价格，全市场参与者都必须达成严格一致。在传统的受监管交易所中，这依靠信任单一公司来实现；而在去中心化网络中，则需要依靠共识机制让相互独立的验证节点协同一致。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: Blockchain Consensus as the Financial Base Layer accDescr: Validators communicate via protocol rules to reach a consistent ledger state. subgraph ValidatorsGroup["验证节点网络（质押权益）"] V1["验证节点 A"] V2["验证节点 B"] V3["验证节点 C（分布式独立运行）"] end subgraph ConsensusLayer["Hyperliquid 共识层"] Rule["消息规则协议\n（>2/3 非拜占庭质押）"] State["全球一致世界视图\n（账户余额 / 资产价格）"] end subgraph AppLayer["金融基础设施应用"] M1["24/7 不间断撮合交易"] M2["链上自主清算引擎（Hypercore）"] end V1 --> Rule V2 --> Rule V3 --> Rule Rule --> State State --> M1 State --> M2 ``` Jeff Yan 特别指出了一个传统金融与去中心化架构结合的认知误区：是否由受监管实体部署市场与底层网络是否去中心化是两个正交（独立）的维度。他坚信未来极有可能出现由持牌合规机构在去中心化网络上开设市场的模式： > “你可以从链上网络的弹性中获益，哪怕是单一注册实体对其部署的市场拥有权限控制。”（“I think you can kind of benefit from the resiliency of an on-chain network, even if a single registered entity has permissions over the markets that they deploy.”） 运营一个 365 天、7×24 小时不间断运行的交易所极其复杂，传统架构中的撮合引擎、清算系统或任何第三方供应商一旦出错，便会构成整个金融系统的单点故障。而依托分布式验证节点网络，即便个别节点发生故障，全网依然能保持吞吐量并推进状态，为受监管市场提供更稳定的技术底座。 --- ### `12:35` 永续合约交易与链上清算机制（Hypercore） 主持人 Tracy Alloway 提出具体场景：假设一个交易者要开仓价值 100 万美元的永续合约（Perpetuals/Perps），整个清算与保证金流程究竟如何流转？Jeff Yan 指出，当前平台上最火爆的品种在真实世界资产（RWA）和加密原生资产之间变动，现阶段交易量最大的标的是比特币价格永续合约（BTC Perps）。 在展开具体流程前，Jeff Yan 幽默地打断并重申了合规红线：作为美国公民，Tracy 实际上无法在现行平台上开仓。Tracy 和 Joe Weisenthal 随即打趣，换作“生活在新加坡的新加坡人”、生活在欧洲的人，或是掏出一本奥地利护照来操作。 抛开国籍玩笑，Jeff Yan 剖析了该机制与传统期货交易所的异同： - **交易对手方**：与传统订单簿完全一致，多单的对手方是订单簿上的挂单者（限价单卖方）。 - **清算与强平阈值**：并非由任何中心化团队或个人主观设定，而是整个结算系统的固有属性。 - **核心创新（Hypercore）**：最大的不同在于清算系统完全运行在区块链上。在传统受监管期货交易所中，清算依托的是法定的违约瀑布流（Default Waterfall）；而在 Hyperliquid 上，被称为 **Hypercore** 的系统子模块直接嵌入区块链状态中，全自动、自主地执行清算与强平。 --- ### `16:30` Bloomberg 终端收录与 TradeXYZ 部署英伟达合约 Joe Weisenthal 提到，一个新事物成为主流的重要标志就是 Bloomberg 终端开始对其进行行情追踪（早在 2012 至 2013 年，终端首次收录比特币价格便引发关注）。如今，终端上已经设立了专属于 Hyperliquid 的“HYPE”页面，实时显示诸如布伦特原油（Brent）、WTI 原油、标普 500 指数（S&P 500）、Circle、SanDisk 以及美光（Micron）等全天候交易资产的行情数据。 谈及平台上由名为 **TradeXYZ** 的实体发行的英伟达（NVIDIA）股票永续合约，Jeff Yan 严谨地纠正了用词：在 Hyperliquid 的语境中，他们使用“部署（Deploy）”而非“发行（Issue）”，因为“发行”带有强烈的证券与法律色彩，而“部署”纯粹是一项链上技术操作。 ```mermaid flowchart LR accTitle: Market Deployment and Staking on Hyperliquid accDescr: Flow from staking HYPE tokens to deploying an oracle and perpetual market. Deployer["市场部署方\n（如 TradeXYZ）"] Stake["质押门槛\n500,000 HYPE 代币"] Permission["解锁部署权限\n（底层区块链原生功能）"] Oracle["定义链上预言机\n（资产价格馈送）"] Market["启动全天候交易市场\n（如 NVDA 永续合约）"] Deployer -->|"锁定质押"| Stake Stake -->|"系统验证通过"| Permission Permission -->|"配置外部数据"| Oracle Oracle -->|"激活交易对"| Market ``` Jeff Yan 将 Hyperliquid 与比特币进行了类比：比特币网络的核心是维护全球一致的账本状态，但其功能仅限于转移 BTC；而 Hyperliquid 的定位是服务于全球金融体系，其链上逻辑要复杂得多。为了部署新市场，部署者必须满足协议设定的严格门槛： - 部署方必须在网络中质押原生代币 **HYPE**。 - 当前硬性门槛为质押 **500,000 枚 HYPE 代币**（是 50 万个代币本身，而非价值 50 万美元的代币）。 - 完成质押后，部署方即可解锁区块链底层的部署功能，并为相关标的资产自定义“预言机（Oracle）”机制，从而将链外真实世界的价格数据无缝接入链上市场。 ### `20:00` 永续合约的核心锚点：预言机机制与协议模块化设计 永续合约（Perpetual Contract）之所以能够持续运转且无需到期交割，核心就在于它能够紧密追踪一个系统外部的指标，即指数价格（Index Price）。在传统衍生品市场中，实物交割合约到期时买方会收到现货原油等标的，现金交割合约则由特定结算机构在到期时了结清算；但永续合约永不过期，因此必须依靠一个外部的“价格锚”，也就是区块链世界中所称的“预言机”（Oracle）。 针对主持人关于“为什么叫预言机而不是直接叫标的资产价格”的疑问，Jeff Yan 解释道，在区块链语境中，“预言机”特指由单个或多个发布者发布、用来追踪链下真实世界数据的机制，因为链上环境天然无法感知外部世界。不过他也提到，未来随着更多现货市场直接迁移到 Hyperliquid 链上，预言机可能不再依赖链下数据的推送，而是直接从链上本身的交易属性中衍生出来。 在具体部署环节上，像 TradeXYZ 这样的部署方（Deployer）如果想上线英伟达（NVIDIA）或 SK海力士（SK Hynix）的永续合约，他们只需积累足够的平台代币 HYPE，并向链上发送一笔部署交易。部署者并不需要从零构建交易系统，而是直接继承了 Hyperliquid 协议层强大的技术底座： ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 部署方与协议的分工架构 accDescr: 展示部署方如何继承底层协议的订单簿与清算能力，并通过预言机提供完整产品 subgraph Protocol["Hyperliquid 协议底层"] OB["高性能链上订单簿"] CL["链上实时清算系统"] USDC["USDC 抵押与结算基础设施"] end subgraph Deployer["部署方（如 TradeXYZ）"] TX["发起部署交易 / 指定合约规则"] ORC["预言机报价系统（发布链下指数）"] end Deployer -->|"继承技术底座"| Protocol Deployer --> Product["终端用户永续合约产品"] Protocol --> Product ``` 这种架构的精妙之处在于协议与部署方之间清晰的责任划分。针对新交易所常见的流动性来源问题，Jeff Yan 强调协议本身绝不干预定价或提供对手盘：“流动性完全属于自由市场，这就是一个订单簿机制。当然，任何下单者都必须准备好足额的抵押品来支撑其委托，除此之外，协议仅仅是买卖双方汇聚撮合的纯粹机制。” - 部署方继承的核心组件包括：链上中央限价订单簿（CLOB）、保证金清算引擎，以及与 Circle 生态无缝对接的 USDC 结算通道。 - 部署方独立承担的职责包括：设定合约的具体参数规则，并运行多节点或独立系统的预言机价格发布网络。 - 这种部署方类似于传统金融中单只股票 ETF（Single-stock ETF）的发行商，但所有机制均通过智能合约与链上代码无许可（Permissionless）运行。 --- ### `22:58` 荷兰式拍卖：链上稀缺计算资源的动态分配 每当一个新交易对在链上启动，它所附带的订单簿和实时清算模块都会持续占用全网的计算与存储资源。为了在去中心化网络中合理分配这种稀缺的“部署席位”，Hyperliquid 设计了一套链上荷兰式拍卖（Dutch Auction）机制。 Jeff Yan 解释称，之所以选择荷兰式拍卖而不是普通英格兰式竞价，是因为传统拍卖在博弈论上存在严重缺陷——竞标者往往会故意以最低加价幅度压制对手、隐匿真实估值信息，并在拍卖即将结束的最后一秒疯狂发送垃圾交易进行“狙击”。而链上荷兰式拍卖则完美规避了这些问题：拍卖价格从一个高位开始随时间线性下降，首位愿意出价的竞标者立刻中标并获得部署席位，从而彻底杜绝了尾盘的网络拥堵与垃圾交易。 ```mermaid flowchart LR accTitle: 部署席位荷兰式拍卖周期 accDescr: 展示拍卖价格随时间线性递减并在结算后重置为两倍的循环机制 Start["拍卖开始：设定高起拍价"] --> Fall["价格随时间线性下降"] Fall --> Bid["首位竞标者出价即中标并清算"] Bid --> Reset["新一轮起拍价重置为上次成交价的 2 倍"] Reset --> Cycle["每 31 小时轮换一次周期"] Cycle --> Start ``` 这一机制最有趣的工程细节之一是其周期间隔被设定为 31 小时。因为 31 与一天的 24 小时互质（Relatively prime），这意味着拍卖重置和落槌的具体时刻会在全球各个时区之间自然轮转，不会偏袒任何特定地理区域的做市商或开发者。每次拍卖成交后，下一个周期的起拍价会自动重置为上一轮最终结算价的两倍，使系统能够自适应地探索并贴合该稀缺资源的市场公允价值。 > “在荷兰式拍卖中，价格从一个设定值开始线性递减，而且它天然具备抗垃圾交易的特性，因为第一个出价的人就能直接拿下。” —— Jeff Yan - 拍卖周期设定为 31 小时，确保重置时间在全球各大时区中均匀交替。 - 竞标结算采用瞬时触发模式，完全消除了链上竞价时的狙击抢跑（Sniping）现象。 - 链上所有竞拍历史、钱包地址与合约部署记录全部公开透明，社区甚至开发了专门的数据面板追踪不同部署方的出价习惯与产品布局。 --- ### `25:52` 散户的金融平权：打破私人市场的造富壁垒 面对平台生态中层出不穷的新品种，Jeff Yan 坦言自己平时忙于底层工程研发，并没有精力逐个审视每次拍卖谁中标了、或者又推出了什么新奇合约。但他对这种技术带来的长远社会价值抱有极其坚定的信念：金融系统存在的终极目的，应当是更好地服务这颗星球上尽可能多的人，而链上金融正通过消除地理和时间壁垒来实现这一愿景。 Jeff Yan 特别指出现代传统资本市场中 IPO 机制的结构性弊端。在当下的美股市场中，企业往往在私有化阶段就已经成长为估值一万亿、两万亿甚至三万亿美元的庞然巨兽，当它们真正走到公开 IPO 这一步时，绝大部分的财富创造红利已经在封闭圈子内瓜分殆尽，留给普通二级市场投资者的增值空间微乎其微。现存金融基础设施在客观上充当了财富准入的门槛守门人，剥夺了普通人在早期阶段参与优质资产成长的权利。 主持人提出质疑：购买 Anthropic 等公司的真实股票拥有未来现金流的潜在索赔权（即未来现金流贴现），而在 Hyperliquid 上购买一份追踪其估值的永续合约，投资者并没有实际股东权益和分红权。对此，Jeff Yan 反驳道： > “你在传统金融里交易期货的时候同样没有现金流索赔权，对吧？所以我并不是说这相比现有体系是一个绝对更优的升级，我也没有说每个人都应该来交易这些资产。但关键在于，有数量级庞大的人群本可以从中受益。” —— Jeff Yan Jeff Yan 认为，金融素养教育与平权接入必须双轨并行。某项资产是否契合投资者的风险承受力，是一个需要通过教育来引导的问题；但如果底层机会本身从一开始就对绝大多数人彻底封闭，那么再多的金融教育也无济于事。去中心化金融所做的一切，正是把这个机会的大门彻底推开，实现金融系统的透明化与民主化。 ### `30:00` 从 HRT 到链上世界：Hyperliquid 的创立初衷 Jeff Yan 回忆了自己在顶级高频量化交易公司 Hudson River Trading（HRT）的经历。他大学毕业后便直接入职 HRT，对那段经历赞不绝口，认为该公司不仅在商业上取得了惊人的成功，而且在内部管理上毫无大公司病，始终保持着类似硬核科技创业团队的敏锐与文化。在 HRT 的日子让他深入理解了现代金融市场的内部运作机制，也结识了许多顶尖的同行。 然而，在经历 2021 年加密牛市及其后的动荡后，Jeff 决定离开传统顶级量化机构，开启属于自己的创业探索。在没有筹集任何外部风险投资（VC）的情况下，许多外界人士可能会认为这是一场逆向押注——毕竟当时大众甚至主流金融界依然普遍认为“加密货币不过是一堆纯投机性质的迷因币（meme coins）”。但 Jeff Yan 看到的完全是另一幅图景：中心化交易所（CEX）上的永续合约（Perpetual Futures，简称 Perps）已经展现出了无可置疑且极其强烈的“产品与市场契合度”（PMF）。用户对该工具的需求极为真实，但所有的繁荣完全建立在中心化托管的基础之上。 在 Jeff 看来，不论是在传统金融还是加密市场，中心化交易所天然存在无法根除的交易对手风险（Counterparty Risk）。如果能有一套系统既保留中心化衍生品交易所极其丝滑的响应速度与交互体验，又能通过原生区块链技术让用户实现对资产的真正自托管（Self-custodianship），就将带来颠覆性的“阶梯式改进”（Step Function Improvement）。Jeff Yan 明确阐述了当时的战略定力： > “2023 年构建链上业务的想法其实更加聚焦和精准，那就是在链上构建人们真正需要的东西。” ```mermaid flowchart LR accTitle: CEX 与 Hyperliquid 的模式对比 accDescr: 对比传统中心化衍生品交易所与 Hyperliquid 的自托管原生链上架构优势 subgraph CEX["中心化交易所 (CEX)"] A1["优质交互体验与流动性"] A2["致命弱点: 平台托管风险与交易对手风险"] end subgraph HL["Hyperliquid 链上愿景"] B1["保留中心化级别的低延迟体验"] B2["结合区块链底层实现资产完全自托管"] end CEX -.->|"阶跃式创新升级"| HL ``` - **创立背景**：放弃传统顶尖量化交易公司的高薪职位，未引入任何风投资金，完全依靠自主开发与自筹资金。 - **核心洞察**：永续合约本身是一个被强烈验证的金融工具，但中心化托管环境蕴含系统性对手方风险。 - **终极诉求**：“鱼与熊掌兼得”——把顶级的撮合与产品体验同完全去信任的资产所有权结合起来。 --- ### `35:00` 承载“全部金融”的雄心与维基百科的荒谬注脚 当主持人谈及 Hyperliquid 是否真的严肃想要“承载全部金融体系（House all of finance）”，甚至未来是否会支持实物交割的大宗商品期货等传统品类时，Jeff Yan 坦言这一愿景虽然听起来像是一个崇高的长远抱负，但他们极其认真对待。即使最终只能承载整个金融体量的 90%，也已经算得上无与伦比的巨大成功。 在 Jeff 看来，实物交割在现实社会中将永远占据极为重要的一席之地，市场并不存在非黑即白的零和博弈。Hyperliquid 的目的从来不是消灭或者替代传统的金融机构与市场运作方式，而是向所有市场参与者提供更优质的通用基础设施。无论底层资产是永续合约还是具有固定交割日期的传统期货，其最核心的技术实质都是一致的：高并发的订单簿（Order Book）、完备的清算结算系统、以及能够跨越地理壁垒汇聚全球深度的流动性网络。Jeff 将这些基础组件定义为“金融原语（Primitives）”： > “承载全部金融的系统应当是一套工具的集合；我们称之为原语，因为这个词更能引发关于它们如何彼此组合的有趣想象，它本质上就是人们完成所需事务的通用工具。” 访谈中还穿插了一个极具反讽意味的插曲：主持人提到自己曾去维基百科搜索 Hyperliquid，发现该条目甚至不存在，或者刚被创建就惨遭删除；管理员给出的删词理由竟是：“典型的加密货币垃圾广告（Typical crypto spam），极其怀疑这是否具备知名度。”主持人戏谑地反讽道，当未来 Hyperliquid 真的承载了全球 90% 到 100% 的金融业务时，这位自以为是的审核管理员恐怕会感到无比滑稽。 --- ### `37:00` 重新造轮子：类比早期互联网与 AWS 的造链之路 当探讨到 Hyperliquid 的实际开发过程时，主持人感叹在没有现代各类 AI 编程辅助工具普及的年代，亲手敲出如此庞大的系统需要何等毅力。Jeff Yan 则修正了主持人的用词——他们从一开始就没把这个工程仅仅当作是在“写一个交易所”，而是在“构建一个全球网络”。 在项目起步阶段，团队首先考察了当时区块链行业现有的各种公链与基础设施框架，试图寻找一个只需稍作渐进式改进就能承载复杂金融结算的现成平台。然而残酷的现实是，几乎所有现成的链都存在巨大的技术断层与性能瓶颈。Jeff 将这种处境类比为 2000 年代初期从事消费互联网开发的先驱企业：原本你只是想做个上层应用，却被迫跌入底层硬件和协议的深坑——你发现网络协议不行、没有合适的云服务，甚至得自己去买服务器组装网络。这正是云计算巨头 AWS（亚马逊云服务）当年诞生的心路历程，Hyperliquid 也因此走向了自主从零研发全新高性能专用 L1 公链的道路。 面对这项在当时看来几乎不可逾越的庞大系统工程，Jeff 坦承这需要一点“盲目的乐观主义（Blind optimism）”，但在团队眼中，事情的极度艰难反而构成了其不可替代的护城河： > “这确实是一个宏大得多的项目，要做好的话规模极为庞大；可能需要一点盲目的乐观主义，但事实是，它足够难，甚至近乎不可能，这反而让它变得更加引人入胜。” ### `40:00` 单一全局状态与运行全融网络的硬件成本 在谈及创立 Hyperliquid 的初衷时，Jeff Yan 表示，那种“如果我们不去尝试，那还有谁会去做”的责任感，让他觉得这件极具挑战的事情非常值得投入。为此，团队深入探究了底层共识机制，彻底重构了节点之间的通信方式，并质疑了当时网络架构设计中的所有既有假设，旨在打造一个最终能承载全人类金融系统的基础设施。在 Jeff Yan 看来，当今现存的各大区块链虽然各有亮点与卖点，但唯有 Hyperliquid 拥有极其明确的愿景：让整个全球金融系统在一个统一的“单一全局状态”（One Global State）下运行。 针对外界关于高性能链往往伴随过高硬件与代币开销的刻板印象，Jeff Yan 澄清道，Hyperliquid Labs 本身并不运行所有的节点网络。目前网络共有 30 多个验证者（Validators），在任意时刻由质押量排名前 27 位的验证者负责出块与运营，基金会仅维护部分节点。令人惊叹且反直觉的是，运行 Hyperliquid 节点的硬件门槛极低。曾有验证者在推特上感叹，原本以为承载未来金融系统的节点需要排队三年去抢购英伟达（NVIDIA）的专用芯片或租用足球场大小的数据中心，却发现它完全运行在普通人就能买到的消费级硬件上。虽然它无法在手机上轻量运行，但目前仅需 128 GB 内存（RAM）即可支持。Jeff Yan 认为这种硬件要求处于一个非常合理的平衡点：“Anyone can procure one of these. It's basically consumer hardware. You can run the global financial system on it.”（任何人都能买到这种设备。它基本上就是消费级硬件。你可以在上面运行整个全球金融系统。） ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: Hyperliquid 验证者网络运作与硬件规格 accDescr: 展示质押排名前27位的验证者通过消费级硬件维持单一全局状态的架构 subgraph Hardware["硬件门槛 (消费级)"] RAM["128 GB 内存"] CPU["普通商用/消费级计算硬件"] NoNvidia["无需排队抢购专有 NVIDIA 硬件"] RAM --> NodeSpec["单节点硬件要求"] CPU --> NodeSpec NoNvidia --> NodeSpec end subgraph ValidatorSet["验证者网络架构"] TotalVals["30+ 全网注册验证者"] ActiveVals["质押量前 27 位活跃验证者"] TotalVals -->|"根据质押权重筛选"| ActiveVals end subgraph GlobalState["核心愿景"] Consensus["深度优化的底层共识通信"] OneState["单一全局状态 (承载全球金融系统)"] ActiveVals -->|"运行节点"| Consensus NodeSpec -->|"支撑部署"| ActiveVals Consensus --> OneState end ``` - **验证节点机制**：活跃验证者集合目前由质押量排名前 27 的节点组成，确保去中心化出块。 - **硬件配置需求**：不需要定制超算或足球场规模的数据中心，标准配置只需 128 GB RAM，市售高端笔记本或简易服务器即可满足。 - **核心定位**：打破多链分片与跨链碎片化，追求以单一全局状态结算全球金融资产。 --- ### `43:20` 团队匿名性争议与权力边界：去中心化协议还是治理实体？ 主持人在访谈中提出疑问：Hyperliquid 极少在公开媒体露面，甚至有一位完全匿名的联合创始人，团队成员信息鲜为人知，社区对网络吉祥物的了解甚至超过了对核心团队的了解。如果 Hyperliquid 真的要接管海量真实世界的金融流动性，外界和机构必然会要求知道“幕后推手是谁”，抑或是团队希望它最终像 TCP/IP 或比特币那样，核心开发者逐渐隐退，演化为一种超然中立的底层基础设施？ 面对质疑，主持人尖锐指出，在 HIP-3（Hyperliquid 改进提案 3）中，部署规则、31 小时的审核期、质押 50 万枚 HYPE 代币的门槛，本质上都是核心团队制定的，这说明团队依然是一个实质上的“治理实体”（Governing Entity）。对此，Jeff Yan 反驳称，应当将整个生态看作一个更大的联合体，而非 Labs 单一实体。像纳斯达克交易的数字资产公司以及各路外部部署者（如 Kraken 等），都是推动技术落地的核心力量。他将目前的团队定位类比为以太坊早期阶段：尽管社区参与度极高，但现阶段仍必须由开发者将抽象的民主诉求翻译为具体的底层代码。“It's a collection of developers taking community feedback, but ultimately to you know, it has to be kind of written by developers, right?”（这是一个吸收社区反馈的开发者群体，但归根结底，代码必须由开发者写出来，对吧？）Jeff Yan 认为，未来的软件工程或许能实现无人类中介的自动化代码转化，但在当前阶段，开发者的职责仅是保证系统展现出公平、透明的技术本质，而非绝对占有网络意志。 - **媒体曝光与匿名团队**：核心创始人之一完全匿名，Labs 极少公开露面，主打中立底层协议形象。 - **HIP-3 的准入规则**：设定了 31 小时的时间限制及 50 万 HYPE 代币的相关部署质押规范，被外界质疑具有强中心化治理色彩。 - **开发者的角色定位**：Jeff Yan 强调开发者并不是规则的绝对独裁者，而是将社区理念和共识具象化为安全代码的“翻译官”。 --- ### `45:45` 信任假设剖析：节点代码规范与市场部署者的权责分离 主持人进一步追问了一个直击核心的问题：当外部创建者（Builder）利用 HIP-3 在 Hyperliquid 上推出一个资产市场，并自主设定定价预言机（Oracle）、杠杆倍数和清算结算规则时，用户既然在信任该创建者，那么用户在底层究竟是在对 Hyperliquid 托付什么样的信任？ Jeff Yan 深入剖析了双层信任模型。他指出，用户对 Hyperliquid Labs 的唯一信任假设，仅仅是节点客户端软件的输出能够严格遵守既定的技术规范（Specification），这与用户对以太坊客户端（如 Geth、Lighthouse）底层数百万行代码的信任逻辑完全一致。然而在业务层面上，协议本身对特定市场部署者不做背书，也不存在由协议向部署者的反向信任绑定。真正的金融风险与信用关系，发生在交易者与具体的部署者之间——例如某个黄金永续合约市场，如果其价格偏离或数据失真，问题根源在于部署者所推送的预言机数据流是否如实反映现实，而非底层撮合链条本身。“Like if you're trusting a contract to track the price of gold, then you are trusting implicitly that the deployer is pushing something that represents what they said it would.”（比如你信任某个合约去锚定黄金价格，那么你暗中信任的是该部署者正在推送与其承诺一致的真实数据。）这种权责分离的设计，使链本身退后为纯粹的去中心化执行环境。 - **底层信任（Protocol Layer）**：信任节点软件能够无差错、无偏见地根据规范执行代码状态转移，类比以太坊节点客户端。 - **应用层信任（Deployer Layer）**：由创建者设定杠杆、风险参数与预言机喂价源，该层面的经济与信用风险完全由交易用户与部署者之间直接承担。 - **技术映射**：HIP-3 上的市场本质上是部署者意图的智能合约化体现，平台不对资产标的底层表现承担中介信用风险。 ### `50:00` 预言机操纵与永续合约对现货的交易量限制 主持人借用被动投资和 ETF 崛起的类比提出疑问：随着 ETF 规模越来越大，市场总会质疑“究竟需不需要有人真正去交易底层标的”；类似地，在加密世界中，像数年前 Solana 生态上的 Mango Markets 操纵事件中，由于永续合约（perps）交易体量相对于底层流动性极差的代币而言过于庞大，恶意交易者极易通过操控现货价格影响预言机（Oracle），从而在衍生品端获利。随后主持人还提到了近期 SK hynix 股票相关代币因预言机报价偏差过大导致亏损的事件，并询问 Jeff Yan：当永续合约的交易量远超底层现货时，预言机体系是否存在某种硬性约束？这是否会限制 Hyperliquid 的发展？ 对于 SK hynix 的报价偏差问题，Jeff Yan 表示 TradeXYZ 对此发布过详细的事后分析报告（postmortem），该事件属于系统实现层面的问题，其系统逻辑本身是按原定代码运行的，但对用户而言可能不够直观，后续也进行了退款和修复；他认为这并非 Hyperliquid、TradeXYZ 甚至区块链所独有，“这纯粹是软件本身的固有属性，就像苹果发布操作系统时也会有 Bug，之后再进行热修复一样”。 针对永续合约成交量是否必须受制于现货成交量这一核心问题，Jeff Yan 提出了相反的见解。他指出，直觉上大家可能认为两者必须存在一个上限比例，但实际情况并非如此： > “先验地看，你可能会假定这个成交量比例存在上限，比如‘永续合约的交易量不能太大，否则在底层标的成交较少时就无法运转’。但我其实不认为这是真的，我认为这反而是健康的。” 他以标普 500 指数期货（S&P 500 futures）与标普 500 底层成分股或 ETF 之间的体量悬殊为例：在传统金融中，衍生品的成交量往往也大幅超越底层现货。Jeff Yan 强调，关键并不在于现货市场是否成交清淡，而在于底层市场是否存在聪明的做市商，在价格出现偏离底层真实价值的波动时提供流动性。如果底层信息透明，哪怕有人在永续合约端下了巨额头寸，只要底层现货价格出现 1% 的偏离，就会有大批做市商乐意以极低的点差进入市场反向交易进行套利。因此，价格发现完全可以在衍生品市场率先发生，而底层现货依然能忠实反映现实世界中的真实价值。 --- ### `55:00` 协议层的数学硬约束与无现货时段的 24/7 原油期货定价机制 谈及 Hyperliquid 是否会因底层标的流动性不足或难以定价而拒绝上线某些产品，Jeff Yan 澄清道，协议层根本没有所谓的“语义编码”（semantic encoding），协议无法对“某项资产是否具有足够的流动性”做出主观判断，就像传统期货交易所的订单簿软件供应商只负责提供撮合买卖订单的机制，而无法替用户判断订单簿反映的内容是否合理一样。 不过，协议层通过严密的数学机制来保证状态机的稳定运作。例如，Hyperliquid 在协议底层设置了一条硬性约束：两次预言机价格更新之间的相对变动幅度不得超过 1%。当喂价试图推送一个偏离 2% 的新价格时，系统会自动将其限制（clamp）在 1% 的变动幅度内，等待下一次推送。这样设计的目的是防止系统由于瞬时过大的价格跳变而引发大量无序清算，通过将剧烈的价格波动分解为连续平滑的变动，确保区块链状态机能够有序流转。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: Hyperliquid 协议层预言机价格限制机制 accDescr: 展示当外部喂价偏差超过1%时，协议如何通过强制截断确保状态机有序运行 A["外部预言机提交新价格"] --> B{"与上一次价格相比<br>变动幅度是否 > 1%？"} B -->|"否 (<= 1%)"| C["直接接受更新价格"] B -->|"是 (> 1%)"| D["协议强制截断（Clamp）至 1% 上限"] D --> E["写入当前状态机<br>保护杠杆仓位免于无序清算"] E --> F["等待下一次喂价继续平滑逼近"] C --> E ``` 针对今年春季伊朗局势恶化时 Hyperliquid 出现 24/7 交易的 WTI 和布伦特原油（Brent）永续合约的现象，主持人追问：在周日凌晨 1 点传统现货市场完全休市、既没有即时现货交易也没有外部预言机传输价格的情况下，WTI 原油永续合约的价格究竟从何而来？ Jeff Yan 解释说，这种规则设定完全取决于合约的部署者（deployer），属于特定合约的规格定义，而非底层公链协议的死规定。同时他强调，当下绝大部分永续合约都依赖 24/7 运转的底层现货预言机，但这在机制上并非不可或缺： - **资金费率机制（Funding mechanism）的本质**：是为了促使衍生品交易价格随着时间推移逐渐向标的现货价格收敛。 - **允许阶段性自由浮动**：在设计上完全可以允许衍生品在某个时段（如周末）自由浮动定价，而在现货开市期间再根据衍生品与标的物之间的价差恢复资金费率支付。数学推导表明，虽然在缺少资金费率的阶段收敛速度会放缓，但资金费率这一机制本身的纠偏目标依然能够顺利达成。 --- ### `58:00` 机构参与现状与传统金融机构的“AWS 上云”演进路径 在机构参与方面，Jeff Yan 确认，目前 Hyperliquid 平台上的许多大体量交易者本身就是专业机构，因为在任何高频交易或做市环境下，都需要极高的技术专业度。 面对主持人关于未来五年内诸如 VanEck、Roundhill 或 State Street（道富银行）等大型资产管理机构是否会在 Hyperliquid 上充当部署者发行资产的提问，Jeff Yan 明确反驳了将这些机构称为“传统/旧势力机构（legacy institutions）”的提法： > “legacy 这个词暗含着他们会被颠覆或取代，而这绝对不是 Hyperliquid 的愿景，至少不是我们所预见的最理想未来。” Jeff Yan 指出，这些知名金融机构与广大客户之间建立了深厚的信任关系，品牌价值高且提供了不可替代的服务，这种关系不应该改变。对于它们而言，采用 Hyperliquid 这样的新技术更像是一种基础设施的升级。他打了个比方：就像云计算和亚马逊 AWS 早期刚面世时，许多自建服务器的企业可能会心生戒备，怀疑“你们是不是想来颠覆我们”；但发展到今天，拥抱云服务早已成为大型企业提升自身产品竞争力的自然选择。未来这些成熟的金融巨头同样会把先进的链上金融轨道视作技术底层，演进而非被颠覆。 - **机构化交易比重**：做市及大规模交易由具备极高技术实力的机构量化做市团队主导。 - **合作生态定位**：Hyperliquid 致力于充当类似于金融领域的 AWS 基础设施，赋能而非替代各大头部资产管理与金融中介机构。 ### `01:00:00` 监管层级的划分与美国合规路径 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 监管分层与合规验证逻辑 accDescr: 展示基础设施协议层与部署者控制层在监管视角下的分离，以及链上确定性审计对传统合规流程的替代。 subgraph Layers["技术与控制分层"] Protocol["底层协议层 (Hyperliquid)<br/>类似 TCP/IP 基础设施<br/>提供网络与流动性"] Deployer["部署者层 (Deployers)<br/>行使具体控制权<br/>负责上币与市场参数"] end subgraph Regulation["监管与审计机制"] CFTC["监管机构 (如 CFTC)<br/>核心原则保持技术中立"] Audit["确定性审计属性<br/>全网可验证：用户余额总和 = USDC 储备"] end Protocol -->|"承载"| Deployer Deployer -.->|"潜在监管接口"| CFTC Protocol -->|"技术特性替代人工流程"| Audit ``` 面对平台是否可能受到美国商品期货交易委员会（CFTC）或芝加哥商业交易所（CME）监管的提问，Jeff Yan 指出了一种分层监管的构想：未来接受监管的实体很可能是具体的“部署者”（Deployers），而非底层协议本身。他借用互联网协议进行了类比：TCP/IP 作为基础传输技术被用于构建现代金融技术栈，但协议本身并不直接受金融监管，监管通常落在拥有和行使控制权的实体层面上。在 Hyperliquid 的架构中，行使市场控制权的角色正是部署者，因此让协议继续充当纯粹的网络和流动性基础设施层，由部署者承担合规职责，在逻辑上是非常自然的演进路径。 谈及特朗普总统公开发声希望将 Hyperliquid 引入美国合规框架的背景，Jeff 澄清了当前的合规红线，严厉警告美国用户切勿使用 VPN 绕过封锁进行交易，强调这属于明确的违规行为，绝非儿戏。对于美国监管机构而言，真正接纳这一体系的核心阻碍在于理解成本。CFTC 的“核心原则”（Core Principles）本身是技术中立的，并没有限制具体的底层实现方式，但监管机构天生承担着维护庞大现有金融系统稳定的沉重责任，因而对待新技术的态度极其审慎。 Jeff 进一步阐释，传统金融的监管严重依赖“流程与信任”——监管机构发起审查，机构出具银行对账单和内部账本；而公链技术则将这种事后核验转变为一种即时的“系统属性”。在链上，世界上任何人都能通过数学与代码可证明地审计出所有用户余额的总和是否与指定地址中的 USDC 储备完全吻合。当监管者逐步领悟到这种“系统确定性属性（Property）”优于“依赖人性的审计流程（Process）”时，技术与合规原则的融合才会迎来真正的顿悟时刻。 - 关于协议监管与网络协议的类比，Jeff Yan 明确表示：“The regulation sits at the layer where there are controls. And indeed, the deployers are the ones that have these exercise these controls. And so it's a very natural way for the protocol to play continue playing its role as a networking liquidity infrastructure layer.”（监管应存在于行使控制权的层级，而部署者正是行使这些控制权的人，因此让协议继续作为网络流动性基础设施层发挥作用是非常自然的。） - 谈及当前美国交易者的合规界限，Jeff 强调：“If you're an American using a VPN, you're breaking the terms of service... it's strictly, it's not a laughing matter.”（如果你是使用 VPN 的美国人，你已经违反了服务条款……严肃地说，这绝不是开玩笑的事情。） - 主持人随后打趣平台带来的 24/7 全天候交易让金融记者和分析师在周末也无法休息，Jeff 则笑着回应交易者理应拥有选择是否参与交易的自由。 ### `01:04:19` 节目复盘：永续合约机制、专有词汇与 HIP-3 架构特色 在 Jeff Yan 离开后，主持人 Joe Weisenthal 与 Tracy Alloway 对整场访谈进行了深度复盘。Tracy 强调，无论 Hyperliquid 本身的未来走向如何，“永续合约（Perps）”作为一种交易原语（Primitive）以及“24/7 全天候交易”的趋势已经展现出不可阻挡的必然性。对于宏观和衍生品交易员来说，深入理解永续合约的资金费率机制和结算架构正变得越来越重要。 针对加密行业总是创造自身独特术语（如 Deployer、Oracle 等）的现象，两位主持人展开了探讨。Joe 指出，Hyperliquid 的底层机制与以太坊（Ethereum）等通用区块链存在根本差异：在以太坊上，去中心化交易所（如 Uniswap）只是部署在通用智能合约之上的独立应用；而在 Hyperliquid 中，协议通过 HIP-3 等原生标准，直接在底层链的代码级确立了交易所的运转规则。 此外，由于 Hyperliquid 引入了基于原生代币 HYPE 的拍卖与治理门槛，平台杜绝了通用公链上充斥着成千上万种毫无价值的“狗狗币（Dog coins）”的垃圾发行乱象。如果要成为部署者，参与方必须质押足额的 HYPE 代币并在荷兰式拍卖中竞价。这种制度设计将市场创设转变为一场深度的商业策略博弈——在英伟达（NVIDIA）或 SK海力士（SK Hynix）等主流资产已被上架的背景下，部署者需要前瞻性地寻找诸如下一个热门区域指数（如哈萨克斯坦股市 ETF）等具有高交易需求的长尾资产，以确保投入高昂沉没成本后能够实现盈利。 - 讨论到永续合约的市场地位时，Joe Weisenthal 评价道：“Regardless of what happens with Hyperliquid specifically, etc., this quote, 'primitive,' unquote, of perps has been growing for a long time. And I think it's very good a reason to be with us for a long time as a popular trading instrument.”（无论 Hyperliquid 本身最终如何发展，永续合约这一“原语”已经发展了很长时间，它完全有理由作为一种主流交易工具长期存在。） - 主持人总结了 Hyperliquid 原生架构与通用公链的区别：平台不是任何人都可以无门槛随意发币的开放沙盒，其内置的拍卖与质押规则迫使市场构建者必须权衡博弈论与资本回报率。 ## Notable quotes > `05:00` We view Hyperliquid, the protocol as a sort of step function improvement over electronic but fragmented markets. — Jeff Yan > `01:00:00` The regulation sits at the layer where there are controls. And indeed, the deployers are the ones that have these exercise these controls. And so it's a very natural way for the protocol to play continue playing its role as a networking liquidity infrastructure layer. — Jeff Yan > `35:00` 承载全部金融的系统应当是一套工具的集合；我们称之为原语，因为这个词更能引发关于它们如何彼此组合的有趣想象，它本质上就是人们完成所需事务的通用工具。 — Jeff Yan > `10:00` I think you can kind of benefit from the resiliency of an on-chain network, even if a single registered entity has permissions over the markets that they deploy. — Jeff Yan > `01:04:19` Regardless of what happens with Hyperliquid specifically, etc., this quote, 'primitive,' unquote, of perps has been growing for a long time. And I think it's very good a reason to be with us for a long time as a popular trading instrument. — Joe Weisenthal > `22:58` 在荷兰式拍卖中，价格从一个设定值开始线性递减，而且它天然具备抗垃圾交易的特性，因为第一个出价的人就能直接拿下。 — Jeff Yan > `01:00:00` If you're an American using a VPN, you're breaking the terms of service... it's strictly, it's not a laughing matter. — Jeff Yan ## Mentioned Jeff Yan, Joe Weisenthal, Tracy Alloway, Hyperliquid, Hyperliquid Labs, CFTC, Donald Trump, HYPE, Hypercore, Bloomberg Terminal, TradeXYZ, NVIDIA, SK hynix, Hudson River Trading (HRT), Mango Markets, Circle, USDC, AWS, VanEck, Roundhill, State Street, CME, HIP-3 ## Video description <p data-prosemirror-content-type="node" data-prosemirror-node-name="paragraph" data-prosemirror-node-block="true" data-pm-slice="1 1 []">Traders and market watchers around the world started talking about a crypto platform called Hyperliquid earlier this year, when speculators used markets built on top of it to trade crude oil after war broke out in Iran. What Hyperliquid allowed for was a 24/7 market on the blockchain. Then in August, President Trump said the CFTC was working on bringing &ldquo;Hyperliquid into the United States in a fully compliant and legal fashion.&rdquo; Hyperliquid currently operates outside the US, but that hasn't stopped it from growing prodigiously in the last year. Jeff Yan, CEO and co-founder of Hyperliquid Labs, joins us today to explain how exactly the platform works: He walks us through the protocol he and his co-founders built, the ecology of actors and assets that are tied to Hyperliquid (like the platform's cryptocurrency HYPE), how perps are bought and sold on the platform, he explains what a blockchain oracle is, and he discusses what has to happen for Hyperliquid to start operating in the US.</p> <p data-prosemirror-content-type="node" data-prosemirror-node-name="paragraph" data-prosemirror-node-block="true">Read more:<br data-prosemirror-content-type="node" data-prosemirror-node-name="hardBreak" data-prosemirror-node-inline="true"><a href="https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2026-10-13/strategy-s-saylor-sees-bitcoin-moving-back-up-beyond-100-000?utm_medium=referral&utm_source=podcast&utm_campaign=odd_lots&utm_content=article" data-prosemirror-content-type="mark" data-prosemirror-mark-name="link">Strategy&rsquo;s Saylor Sees Bitcoin Moving Back Up Beyond $100,000</a> <br data-prosemirror-content-type="node" data-prosemirror-node-name="hardBreak" data-prosemirror-node-inline="true"><a href="https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2026-10-13/ledger-to-review-sale-policies-after-crypto-spyware-attack?utm_medium=referral&utm_source=podcast&utm_campaign=odd_lots&utm_content=article" data-prosemirror-content-type="mark" data-prosemirror-mark-name="link">A $90 Million Spyware Hack Sparks Review of Crypto Wallet Sales</a></p> <p data-prosemirror-content-type="node" data-prosemirror-node-name="paragraph" data-prosemirror-node-block="true">Only <a href="http://Bloomberg.com" data-inline-card="" data-card-data="">http://Bloomberg.com</a> subscribers can get the Odd Lots newsletter in their inbox each week, plus unlimited access to the site and app. Subscribe at&nbsp; <a href="https://www.bloomberg.com/subscriptions/oddlots?in_source=oddlotspodcast" data-prosemirror-content-type="mark" data-prosemirror-mark-name="link">bloomberg.com/subscriptions/oddlots</a></p> <p data-prosemirror-content-type="node" data-prosemirror-node-name="paragraph" data-prosemirror-node-block="true"><a href="http://bloomberg.com/subscriptions/oddlots" data-prosemirror-content-type="mark" data-prosemirror-mark-name="link">Subscribe to the Odd Lots Newsletter</a><br data-prosemirror-content-type="node" data-prosemirror-node-name="hardBreak" data-prosemirror-node-inline="true"><strong data-prosemirror-content-type="mark" data-prosemirror-mark-name="strong">Join the conversation:</strong> <a href="https://discord.gg/oddlots" data-prosemirror-content-type="mark" data-prosemirror-mark-name="link">discord.gg/oddlots</a></p><p>See <a href="https://omnystudio.com/listener">omnystudio.com/listener</a> for privacy information.</p> [Source](https://podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/tracking.swap.fm/track/UVBrz8bN8aM2Xe47PEPu/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/8a94442e-5a74-4fa2-8b8d-ae27003a8d6b/b143850e-7e8f-4144-8299-b4e30171ca7d/audio.mp3?in_playlist=982f5071-765c-403d-969d-ae27003a8d83)

[5:00] Jeff Yan: We view Hyperliquid, the protocol as a sort of step function improvement over electronic but fragmented markets. [60:00] Jeff Yan: The regulation sits at the layer where there are controls. And indeed, the deployers are the ones that have these exercise these controls. And so it's a very natural way for the protocol to play continue playing its role as a networking liquidity infrastructure layer. [35:00] Jeff Yan: 承载全部金融的系统应当是一套工具的集合；我们称之为原语，因为这个词更能引发关于它们如何彼此组合的有趣想象，它本质上就是人们完成所需事务的通用工具。 [10:00] Jeff Yan: I think you can kind of benefit from the resiliency of an on-chain network, even if a single registered entity has permissions over the markets that they deploy. [64:19] Joe Weisenthal: Regardless of what happens with Hyperliquid specifically, etc., this quote, 'primitive,' unquote, of perps has been growing for a long time. And I think it's very good a reason to be with us for a long time as a popular trading instrument. [22:58] Jeff Yan: 在荷兰式拍卖中，价格从一个设定值开始线性递减，而且它天然具备抗垃圾交易的特性，因为第一个出价的人就能直接拿下。 [60:00] Jeff Yan: If you're an American using a VPN, you're breaking the terms of service... it's strictly, it's not a laughing matter.

[0:00] There are some market stories where you want every detail. Tracy and I have made quite a few podcasts on that basis, but sometimes you've only got 10 minutes and need to know what's moving markets and why. That's the Barclays Brief Podcast. Every week, experts from Barclays markets and research get you up to speed on what matters and what to watch next. About the time it takes to grab a coffee. So search Barclays Brief wherever you get your podcasts. Some people treat ChatGPT like some kind of smart search engine, and some use it to get work done. ChatGPT Work is a new way of working in ChatGPT that can take action across your apps and files, stay with a project for hours if needed, and turn a goal into finished work. starting point to a reviewable first version. So all the source materials, briefs, and scattered information that you have to grind through to turn into something useful can just become something useful. Put ChatGPT to work on your most ambitious ideas and projects. Get started at chatgpt.com by selecting work mode available on plus and pro plans. If you're a business owner, you need a card that can keep up. With the Delta SkyMiles Reserve Business American Express card, Everyday purchases transform into miles you can use towards future travel. So business as usual can lead to a well-deserved getaway. And for a limited time, card members can earn 200,000 bonus miles, the highest miles offered this year. Whether you're traveling for business or planning your next adventure, now's a great time to make every purchase go further. Apply today at www.delta.com slash podcast. Offer ends November 4th. Minimum spending requirements and terms apply. Bloomberg Audio Studios. Podcasts. Radio. News. Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots podcast. I'm Joe Weisenthal. And I'm Tracy Alloway. Tracy, we're recording this. Tradie. Yeah. That's appropriate for this episode. Slip already, Tradie. Tracy, we're recording this October 13th. In a couple of days, we're And we're going to, as we do when we go to Chicago, talk to some legends of the trading industries. Yeah, it's great to go to Chicago. We've never done a floor tour of any of the actual trading places in Chicago. We should do that. Yeah, we should do that. But of course, it's always an exciting time to sort of like talk to the trader community because there are just so many interesting things happening like in the world of trading per se. One of them is, of course, the rise of prediction markets, etc. We're in this moment where so many different instruments can be expressed as other instruments in various ways. So you can have stocks that are tokenized. You can have tokens that are ETFized, like crypto tokens that are put in ETFs. You can have prediction markets that actually are sort of functionally predicting a stock, and then they become a stock. Essentially, you can replicate the economics of a stock. the way you can express a view with this incredible basket of like new instruments and platforms to do it on. Financialization on steroids. Can I go on a slight tangent? So I have this media theory that I call the inverse pyramid. Yeah. And so the way I think about traditional media, it was sort of like a food pyramid. Right. And you had original reporting was the layer at the bottom. So you had sort of old school reporters making scoops. And then maybe writing editorials or opinion columns on them, maybe a little bit of like video eventually on top. Nowadays, The pyramid is completely inverse, where the smallest layer is the original reporting. And then there's so much content built on top of that. I often think about finance today in those terms, in the sense that the underlying is kind of the smallest part of the market now. And there are so many new instruments built on top of it, whether it's derivatives, futures and options, or now it's prediction markets and things like that. a while, but it feels like the inversion of that pyramid is just getting bigger and bigger. That's a great take, right? And I didn't know where you were going with that until... I got there eventually. But right, you think of something like SK Hynix or something like that. And okay, there's some company and there's a stock of the trades. Then there's ADRs. And then there's 3X leveraged ADRs. And there's tokenized versions of it and so forth. And then there's prediction markets on where will SK Hynix close in the next 10 minutes. I don't know if that exists. If it etc. But like there is so much to do on this topic. [5:00] And of course, you know, we did that episode not that long, a few years ago with Austin Campbell talking about the potential for sort of blockchain to sort of unify and bring together a lot of different markets, I think was one of the more compelling quote crypto unquote conversations that we've had, etc. And one of the things that's getting a lot of attention that combines all these things is this entity called Hyperliquid, which people who know it are obsessed with it, but not it's not a household name yet. know it are very into it. It's not a household name, even though it's been growing incredibly fast. Yeah. The one thing I know about it before starting prep for this episode was... the mascot, which we have here, who's called Hyper. And I always approve... of a company with a good mascot. So here we are. Well, you know, the company is a little bit sort of known for being a bit secretive. There's not like they don't do a ton of press. And so we're actually going to have to interview the mascot today because we weren't able. No, that's not true. Amazingly, we really do have fun. Yeah. Amazingly, we really do have the perfect guest on the podcast. Someone we've on to talk to for a long time. Jeff Yan, the co-founder and CEO of Hyperliquid Labs is here in studio with us. So Jeff, thank you so much for coming on AdLots. Thanks for having me. Why don't you give us the sort of basic view of like what hyperliquid is today? I mean, this is we're going to go into this, but just big picture, like someone says, what's hyperliquid? What do you answer them? Yeah, so hyperliquid is a protocol. Okay. The tagline or aspirational goal is housing all of finance and... I think the community is serious about that, so we can go into what that means. But... The short of it is... neutral layer on which finance can ultimately happen. It's the same way that electronic trading was a step function improvement over pit trading only a couple of decades ago. We view Hyperliquid, the protocol as a sort of step function improvement over electronic but fragmented. markets. So I know Joe said hyperliquid is not necessarily a household name just yet, but it might be on its way to becoming one because just a couple of months ago, Donald Trump was talking about hyperliquid and talking about U.S. regulators working to bring hyperliquid to the U.S. at the moment. If you're in the U.S., you quote unquote are not allowed to use hyperliquid, although my When Trump said that, Feel free to refute me on that. That's just what I read on Reddit. Okay. But when Trump said that, Were you aware that he was going to be talking about hyperliquid at that point? I was not aware. So that was a huge surprise to me. Hyperliquid Labs... works on the protocol. I suppose it may be good to give a bit of a breakdown of the various pieces. There's the protocol. It's a neutral blockchain. It's a collection of permissionless set of validators who operate a network collectively, which is sort of a global view of a single consistent state. Hyperliquid Labs is a team that builds technology for this blockchain. And we are a super small team. And there's sort of like, I think what the CFTC is referring to when they say they want to bring the protocol together to the United States is that it is in fact against the terms of service of Hyperliquida XYZ and many other interfaces for US users to use the derivatives. trading on the protocol. But the CFTC, I think the current administration wants to kind of take a proactive approach. approach towards on-chain rails for finance. I think it's a kind of technological view that markets can be improved and that the U.S. should not play a sort of you know, extremely restrictive. We should not have an extremely restrictive view on this, but rather should find ways where it... can incorporate this technology into the existing financial system. So let's talk more about, I guess, what maybe the ecology or the ecosystem of hyperliquid in the players, because you mentioned the word protocol. And I have to say, it's like at various times, the Bitcoiners would say, no, this is the new protocol, the Internet of Money. And Ethereum people talked about, oh, it's a protocol. This word gets used a lot. So why don't you just talk has higher aspirations than sort of like a typical crypto project. But like, I understand there's validators, deployers, et cetera. Maybe like give us the landscape of who does stuff on Hyperliquid and like what their roles are. Yeah, it's a good question. This is a very deep question. Yeah, I know. Maybe it's a little... Yeah, it's a lot of stuff. But at a high level, a protocol is basically... [10:00] it's kind of what it sounds like, you know, like there's like an HTTP protocol, like a TCP protocol. It's a, It's a messaging framework. by which different validators in this case. agree to communicate by these rules. Okay. And The interesting thing about a sort of a blockchain protocol as compared to a purely informational format protocol is that the rules... Under certain assumptions, in this case, in the case of hyperliquid, that two thirds of the stake of the network is what we call non-Byzantine, which is to say that they operate under the. normal rules of the protocol that you get all these great properties, which is that these validators can operate independently. And basically, that's all you don't need to assume much more. The network will come to a consistent view of the world. And this is really important for finance, right? Because it's sort of a it is kind of the first layer. If you're talking about the pyramid of like things that need to happen for a global financial system, if you think about it, the very, very base layer of the sort of information in the system is that everyone needs to agree. If we don't agree on what the ledger of balances is, for example, then all bets are off. this much in my account and also like what the prices are of the like there's some basic things that like every participant needs to agree on and in a regulated exchange that's pretty simple we trust this company they're going to market but in a decentralized one you need some trick to get Not a trick, but you need some mechanism to get independent validators to all agree. Yes. And there can I would draw the distinction. It's kind of an orthogonal question of whether there is a regulated entity. deploying the markets. And in fact, I think there very much will be. And it's not an either or. I think you can kind of benefit from the resiliency of an on-chain network, even if a single registered entity has permissions over the markets that they deploy. The benefits of the technology are that if you want to run a 24-7 network, 365. exchange. It's not a simple task. And any sort of mistakes that you may make, whether it's with the matching engine, with the clearing, any of the vendors in the stack, ultimately, that is a single point of failure for a very critical piece of infrastructure for the financial system. If the rails on which it is built consists of a diverse distributed set of validators where one or even network still maintains its important properties, which is that everyone agrees on the state and that it continues progressing forward at the usual throughput, then all of a sudden you have a much more stable foundation on which to build your regulated exchange. Maybe just to hammer this point home, could you walk us through an example of, say, you know, I buy... million dollars worth of a certain perpetual futures contract. What's your most popular perpetual futures at the moment? It actually varies. So between real world assets or things like Bitcoin, I think right now it is the perpetuals on Bitcoin's price. Okay. Well, let's say I buy a million worth of perps on Bitcoin. Who is actually taking the other side? Is there collateral involved? Where is the collateral kept? Who determines the unwinds and who loses money if for whatever reason, I can't actually pay. I was going to say, by some miracle, Tracy makes money. Who is on the lose again? But anyway, yeah. Walk us through how that works. Well, first of all, I just want to reiterate that as an American, you probably are not opening this position. OK, OK. Pretend that I live in Singapore. If you're a Singaporean living in Singapore or a European living in Europe. For anyone who lives in a free country. Can I trade on my Austrian passport? This is an interesting question. Probably in Austria. Yeah. All right. The mechanisms, all of which you mentioned, I believe, are not so different from futures contracts on the futures exchange. Perhaps the one that is interesting here is the... So, you know, there's a counterparty in the order book. The liquidation is set by the system. So it's not a subjective, it's not like someone actively setting a liquidation price. It's a property of the clearing system. The unique thing here is that the clearing system is on-chain. So the threshold at which it happens and the mechanism by which the liquidation happens, which we can get into, it's analogous to the what is the traditional default waterfall in a U.S. regulated futures exchange, for example, analogous, different names. that happens. in an on-chain implementation. So the execution of the what is called hypercore kind of like you can view it as like a sub module of the blockchain state itself autonomously carries out the mechanisms of these things like clearing and the collisions. [15:00] *music* There are some market stories where you want every detail. Tracy and I have made quite a few podcasts on that basis, but sometimes you've only got 10 minutes and need to know what's moving markets and why. That's the Barclays Brief Podcast. Every week, experts from Barclays markets and research get you up to speed on what matters and what to watch next. About the time it takes to grab a coffee. So search Barclays Brief wherever you get your podcasts. Some people treat ChatGPT like some kind of smart search engine, and some use it to get work done. 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A classic sign that something is going to be a big deal, in my opinion, is when like Bloomberg starts listing it. So, for example, like years ago, I don't know, I think it was like 2012 or 2013 was the first time that. on the terminal, you could look up the Bitcoin price. It's like, maybe something is going to happen here. Recently, there is now a hype page and you can look at 24 seven things like they trade Brent there and they trade WTI and they trade S&P 500 and Circle and SanDisk and Micron and a bunch of other stuff. And of course, it's got a lot of engagement. I saw it's super cool. No, it's a big deal. Kudos to you all for integrating the technology. Yeah, there you go. an NVIDIA perp that trades on Hyperliquid. And I believe it is issued by an entity called TradeXYZ. So let's bring in who is TradeXYZ and how do they get in a position where they can issue an NVIDIA perp? Like walk through like how this emerged on Hyperliquid. So we use the word deploy because I think issue has many connotations. This is a technical process by which Anyone can use the network in different ways. On the Bitcoin network, Same kind of foundational idea of globally consistent state distributed set of participants. But on Bitcoin, you can move Bitcoin around. That's. all you can do on Hyperliquid. It's a lot more complex as a system that ultimately can power the financial system needs to be. And so one of these functionalities is that deployers can come, they stake some amount of the Native token. How many hype do they have to buy to become a staker? Or how many do they have to accumulate? Yeah, they have to stake 500,000 currently. Hype. Not $500,000 worth of hype, but 500,000 hype coins. Okay, keep going. And... the Stake is basically a way for them to unlock... these deployment functionalities that are implemented on the blockchain itself. And they can effectively define an oracle. more of an oracle. [20:00] I suppose it is a mechanism by which a perpetual contract tracks the one number that is exogenous to the system, which is the index. That's kind of the beauty of a perpetual, right? It's it's so powerful, so expressive. And yet it really is kind of ultimately boils down to one number and this is really important right because like a physical settled future the future ends and you get the oil at the end a cash settled future there's some entity and it's like okay the future expires with a perp it never really ends but there needs to be a price oracle that it's always going to be i guess tethered why is it called an oracle as opposed to just like the underlying price Well, Oracle here has... The meaning of the word Oracle in a blockchain context is something that is... published by a, you know, a single or multiple publishers that track something that is off chain. So it is not knowable from purely on chain. characteristics. This will change in the future because I think as spot markets move onto hyper liquid, you can imagine a system where the Oracle is actually no longer published, but rather derived from on-chain properties. Okay. Just to finish the question about how the Hynix or the NVIDIA perp got there. So, okay. TradeXYZ, they're a deployer. They accumulate the hype so that issue the NVIDIA perp or the Honex perp. It's a simple matter of sending a transaction to do the deployment and the The thing here is they're inheriting the technology of... the order book, the clearing. Yeah. In this sort of like the existence of USDC itself in a way that's kind of well connected to the sort of entire circle infrastructure is it's another example of something that a deployer inherits and they simply send the transaction designating the specifications of the contract and. they as deployers push this, they or their system. In TradeXYZ's case, I believe there is a system of publishers of the Oracle price. Okay. And then the The magic of it is that it is truly a distinct set of responsibilities between the protocol and the deployer, but together... they kind of form this incredibly compelling... ultimate product for the end user. And this is kind of this idea of modularity that I think is unique to on-chain financial systems. Where does the liquidity come from? Because this is a classic issue for new exchanges and new markets. How do you actually make sure that there's enough money floating around to take the other side of a trade? The liquidity is just... It's a free market, so it's an order book. Of course, whoever places an order must have the collateral necessary to back the order. But other than that, it is not really the protocol simply mechanism by which buyers and sellers come together. It feels to me like to some extent the deployers like a trade XYZ, but there are others. We keep mentioning them. There's others, the trade Paragon. There's some others I don't know all the names of. They're a little bit like an ETF issuer, right? Yeah. Like in a traditional stock market, like they're a little bit like their response. ETF Deployer. Yeah. But like, OK, like I'm good. Because some companies have like. you know, single stock ETFs, etc. They are responsible for this instrument maintaining a price to some underlying thing. In the case of ETF, there's usually a basket of conversion, etc. But like, The thing I'm still trying to understand is like... content people issue an NVIDIA Like how did they get this particular slot in the thing? as opposed to someone else. Yeah, so anyone can do it. So there's no protocol level semantics about... what the perpetual is. The protocol, you can view it as a kind of basket of tools and like a deployer can come and use it okay as they see fit and but your i guess the second part of your question is like well, what is kind of the mechanism by which this kind of scarce resource might be limited? Yeah, how did it emerge? Yeah. So that is governed by an on-chain mechanism. It's a Dutch auction. Yeah, explain that. I guess in short, it's basically, it's a way to kind of allocate the scarce resource of deployment and slots. This is scarce because on-chain, each order book, each kind of clearing system for a specific market, takes computational resources of the network. So as the network scales, I think these resources become less scarce, but ultimately they will always be a limiting factor of of anyone that wants to deploy on the system. And the Dutch auction is a way whereby in every 31-hour interval, currently 31 is simply chosen so that the time at which the auction resets is... changes time zones as [25:00] It's relatively prime to the number 24. That's nice. But, you know, approximately once a day, there's an opportunity for any deployer to deploy something. And the auction... The Dutch auction is nice because normal auctions have... a few undesirable properties the incentives are a bit odd so you're kind of incentivized to Penny the other bidders your incentive eyes to withhold information and then you spamming at the very end. It has all these kind of like interesting... I would say suboptimal game theory properties. Dutch auctions are nice, especially in on-chain systems, because they go in reverse. So the price starts at a value and it decreases linearly. And then it is kind of spam resistant because the first person who bids gets it. The price decreases in this case linearly, but I suppose it doesn't have to be linear. And it resets to twice the last clearing price. So there's a kind of natural, there's a natural correction mechanism by which it approaches the fair market value of the scarce resource. Do you get excited to see who wins those auctions? And do you have any idea of like, oh, well, they plan to do this or issue or deploy whatever with if they win this auction? Or do you have an idea of like this particular deployer has come up with interesting ideas before? I don't know. So it is a permissionless options. I know there are tools that people have built where you can see they're pretty cool stats. This is another nice thing about on-chain systems that the data is transparent and verifiable and auditable. So anyone can build these really cool analytical tools about, oh, like these deployers, like you said, like tend to bid in these ways and they tend to use the tool in the specific way But I personally am. Honestly, just too busy to really look into this stuff in depth. But I do think it is very cool broadly to see what is being done, which is taking these markets that are traditionally... sort of confined in various ways and extending them, making them more broadly accessible, whether that's temporally, you know, 24-7, whether that's sort of just giving... retail or just everyone around the world a more equal access to the same financial opportunities. I'm a really big believer in that. And I think many people, whether they're building on chain or even in traditional settings, I think many people work in finance. sort of towards the same end goal. We're really just taking different routes, but kind of all trying to make incremental progress. Ultimately, The thinking is that the financial system is there to... better serve as many people on this planet as possible. And that is, I think that is... you know, many layers removed, but this sort of permissionless deployment system ultimately is accomplishing that goal. Like one example here is the... IPOs, especially this year, if you look at them, they're a really great example of how wealth is being created and tremendous amounts of wealth are being created. But it's being created in a way where it's gatekept. I don't think this is done intentionally. I think it's just a byproduct of how the markets work right now. But if you have trillion dollar, two trillion, three trillion dollar companies IPOing. you can pretty confidently say that most of the wealth creation has happened at that point. And failing or sort of limitation of the existing system if up until that point, Very few people have been able to trade these opportunities. But I guess one question that I always have with this type of stuff is, okay, if you're buying shares in Anthropic or whatever, when they IPO, you're getting a claim on the company's dividend, right? Like, there's going to be some... Assuming they have a dividend. There's going to be some free cash. Right. There we go. The net present value of all future cash flow. Whereas if I'm an unaccredited investor purchasing something that's tracking anthropic shares on a platform such as Hyperliquid, I'm not getting that cash flow. but you're not getting the cash flow if you're trading futures on something as well, right? So I'm not saying that it's a strict improvement over the system. And I'm not saying that everyone, it doesn't actually make sense for everyone to trade these things. It's more that there are a non-zero number. There's like, I think an order of magnitude more people who benefit, who could benefit from something. And of course, there's a parallel track of work, which is like, we should all be kind of working hard to educate. as many people as possible so that You know, the kind of like financial opportunity is just that it's an opportunity. I think that, you know, whether it fits someone's specific risk profile, I think, is more of a question of education. But I think if the opportunity itself is completely different, get it off then that's a non-starter. There's no way, no amount of education is going to get you out of that. So I think you kind of need... both. And I think right now it's just... There is just so much work to be done. But I think the first step is taking the system itself and making it fair and democratized. You know, we've been talking a lot about just sort of like market structure of hyperliquid. And I do I would like to get back. to that, etc. But like, maybe people would be interested in a little bit about [30:00] about you and your background. You used to be at Hudson River Trading. He started Hyperliquid a few years ago, kind of after like the insane 2021 year that crypto had, etc. What were you, you're looking out into the world. And it must have been kind of a, people might have thought it was a contrarian bet, like, hey, crypto, that was just a bunch of like meme coins and stuff that was over she didn't raise any VC money. Talk to us about this choice to like... pivot your career and take this big shot at building something new. And what did you see out in the financial system such that you thought there was this big missing piece that was lacking? to your first point, Hudson River Trading, I worked there right out of college. Okay. Had an amazing experience and only positive things to say about them. They're... Obviously a wildly successful company, but When I was there, I felt like you didn't you didn't feel that day to day. Like I felt a lot like a startup, like a tech startup. And I think I think they worked hard to. kind of have that culture. And so, you know, learned a lot about markets, met great people. The idea with... building an on-chain business In 2023, the vision was a bit more laser-focused and narrow. It was to build something on-chain that people actually need. And when we looked around... You know, just looked at what people were doing in the world and like where could on chain? technology really improve things. You know, we didn't we actually didn't see it as, oh, like crypto is only about meme coins, whatever. Right. Like there are these exchanges that were offering perpetual futures in a centralized. context and they were very clearly offering something that users want. benefit benefited from and wanted and there was amazing product market fit. And I think now you see this in traditional contexts where I think perps have kind of like crossed that threshold of acceptance, which is which is really, really cool. But even 2023, there were many venues in crypto offering these, but they were all doing it in a centralized way. manner. And so It was very clear to us, at least, that there was an opportunity to bridge the gap between the user experience and product experience on the one hand of a centralized perpetual venue. and the on-chain technology. and the properties such as self custodianship of your own capital, which is very important. I think the kind of counterparty risk of using exchange is always going to be there, whether it's in a crypto or non crypto context. And so If you could have your cake and eat it with those two properties, the idea was that this would be something that would be a step function improvement over what people had access to at that point. Some people treat ChatGPT like some kind of smart search engine, and some use it to get work done. ChatGPT Work is a new way of working in ChatGPT that can take action across your apps and files, stay with a project for hours if needed, and turn a goal into finished work. It's designed to help you move from a chaotic starting point to a reviewable first version. So all the source materials, briefs, and scattered information that you have to grind through to turn into something useful something useful. Put ChatGPT to work on your most ambitious ideas and projects. Get started at ChatGPT.com by selecting Work Mode, available on Plus and Pro plans. Running a small business takes everything you've got, but with Chase for Business, you're not alone. They bring together local support and a broad range of resources to more than 7 million customers. With a deep understanding of your day-to-day needs, they provide products and guidance built to help you thrive. Right now, earn $500 when you open a new Chase Business Complete Checking account for new business checking customers with qualifying activities. Offer expires January 21st, 2027. Chase Business Complete Checking has the flexible tools you need to accept payments, make deposits, and manage your finances with confidence. Learn more at chase.com slash podcast biz offer. Chase, make more of what's yours. Fees may apply to Chase Business Complete Checking accounts. 1-21-2027. Eligibility and qualification requirements must be met. Additional restrictions may apply. Please speak with a business banker for more information. JPMorgan Chase Bank, NA. Member FDIC. Quick question for you. How much of your day is spent typing? Email, Slack, notes, prompts to chat GPT? Whisperflow is a voice-to-text app. Instead of typing, you talk and it types for you in any app on your Mac, Windows, iPhone, or Android. It takes you [35:00] four times faster than typing. So the email that used to take two minutes now takes 30 seconds. Whisperflow is free. Download it at whisperflow.ai. That's W-I-S-P-R flow.ai. This podcast is brought to you by Navy Federal Credit Union. 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You know, other than perps? Can we go old school and have physically settled like commodities futures or something? Is that possible for you? I think we're very serious about the idea. Of course, it is... It is aspirational. I think even 90% of all of finance would be a huge success and we're a long way. ways away. I think Physical settlement is... Well, one is it's always going to have a very important place in society. I think this is kind of like a misconception about perps and honestly, just about our general vision. Like we're not trying to displace people. anything. In fact, I think the technology can benefit Everyone who currently operates markets in a in a kind of a more traditional setting. And whether these markets are perpetual markets or settled dated futures. is irrelevant because ultimately what you really need is an order book clearing system and global distribution, concentration of liquidity. All these properties kind of doesn't really matter what the underlying is. And I personally am not very opinionated about it. what ought to exist. I think the system to house all of finance should be a collection of tools. We call these things primitives because I think they're kind of it evokes a lot more kind of interesting, you know, how these things can compose with each other. But anyway, tools, effectively tools for people to do what they need to do. It's funny. There's no hyper liquid Wikipedia page. Really? I look because I was trying to see and it was or maybe there was and it was deleted. And one of the moderators said, typical crypto spam. Very doubtful. This is a notable topic. And the page was deleted. But if you guys house 90 percent of finance one day. That sounds like my bio, which got deleted because I was a journalist of little notability. If this person is humble, I'm not going to call this person out by name, but this moderator is going to feel pretty dumb one day. 90% to 100% of finance. And he's like, very doubtful. This is a notable time. Anyway, we'll be revisiting this page in the future. So you decide to build it. And you code it yourself. And this was when coding was so hard, because now anyone can code. Can you talk a little bit about like what that was like, building? an exchange at your computer and like how that all worked, how long that took? Well, we don't view it as building an exchange. It's really building kind of like a network. Yeah, you're right. Sorry. The important thing here was that we kind of looked around and tried to find something existing at that moment in time that could effectively with an incremental improvement. How's all the finance? And the... conclusion, unfortunately, was that there were many technological gaps. And it's a bit like, probably if you were building consumer tech, something like that, in the early 2000s, maybe you realize, you kind of go down this rabbit hole of like, oh, wait, no, we got to do, oh, we got to buy computers. Like, oh, maybe the internet doesn't actually work that well. Like, maybe we should kind of work on some networking things. And this is where kind of the vision of, you know, like an AWS kind of analogy did come up. I really think, that the thought process and realizations and ultimate generalization of the infrastructure probably has some parallels between these two stories. Albeit, of course, Hyperliquid at a much earlier stage and a smaller scale. But that was effectively the realization like, OK, I guess. this thing is a lot bigger of a project to do it well. It's a very big project and maybe a bit of just blind optimism or I think the fact that it was hard was almost impossible. more [40:00] Inspiring to me like it felt made it seem more worth doing and it felt more like well if I if we don't at least... give it a shot, like who will? And so, yeah, it kind of involved... digging down way deep into the consensus layer of like just how do these different nodes talk to each other. questioning all the assumptions about how networks were built. at that time to kind of come up with a solution that ultimately can house all the finance. Because I think if you look around even blockchains today, they're very admirable and they all have their own selling points, but I don't think any of them other than hyperliquid. Has this precise vision of a global financial system can actually just have one global state? three footballs or whatever cliche people like to use now? What's your token spend like now? And how much of a constraint is this really? Yeah, that's a good question. I think this is also a misconception about a few there. Um, First of all, we actually don't run these things. The foundation runs some validators, but ultimately it's currently the set of validators is 30 something and the top 27 of them by stake at any moment in time operate. the network, the specifications for running a node are actually very minimal, which I think is quite cool and counterintuitive. Like I remember a validator at some point, I think tweeted something and was like, wow, my mind is blown. I just realized that on this machine, this kind of humble, rudimentary machine that anyone can procure. There's no three-year line or exclusive contract needed with NVIDIA or anything like that. Anyone can procure one of these. It's basically consumer hardware. You can run the global financial system on it. Of course, not there yet, but that is the vision of like, It doesn't matter how many things are built, the network should not be prohibitively expensive to operate. That being said, you can't run it on your cell phone. So there's like some sort of trade off here. I think a reasonable approach to take here is like, it data centers the size of football stadiums to run this thing. Like right now you need 128 gigs of RAM. Like that's not... That's not like... the cheapest laptop you can buy anywhere, but also you can buy a laptop with that spec. So, um, Yeah, that's kind of the sweet spot, I think. So you have this vision, maybe you get to 100% or... swallow all the finance, which is pretty cool. Very ambitious. Hyperliquid itself, you don't do a lot of media, which is why we're thrilled to have you on. I believe you have a completely pseudonymous co-founder. There is not much known about your team in general. I think people know more about the mascot than the team members. I think people don't know if there's a specific address or whatever that they could call. Do you envision eventually that changing? Do you think to be a demand for like, look, we're running a lot of the financial system through this platform. We sort of want to know the people who are running this. Or do you envision it where it's like kind of like this sort of supreme neutrality? Like we don't know who's running the Internet. We don't know who is running Bitcoin. Do you see or do you see it that way? Or eventually like you and your team truly can like fade out and it's just a protocol like TCP IP is. Well, the team, I actually view the team as much bigger than labs. So who runs the thing? Well, it's really a collection, a constellation of different teams. So we mentioned Per earlier, right? The Nasdaq traded ETF or digital asset treasury company. They're part of the team, right? They're the team going to investors and explaining what this technology is, right? And David is very well known. And so I think this is kind of like a miscategorization of who runs the thing because like you said the who deploys a market it's the deployer well the deployers there are many of them and there will continue to be more and i think you know kraken announced earlier you for example set the rules for each so a hip three you set the rules you set the 31 hours you set the thing about 500 000 um hype tokens to be you are a governing entity well this is no different from the ethereum blockchain where the developers have 90 of the if the world is going to eventually have all finance beyond this chain like yeah it is like the ethereum blockchain they've like gone sideways for several years if the world is going to like be on this thing, Do you think people are going to expect to want to be able [45:00] to know more about the people governing the platform. I guess what I wanted to say there was that the Ethereum blockchain is... It's a collection of developers taking community feedback, but ultimately to you know, it has to be kind of written by developers, right? Like, unfortunately, maybe you're right, like, maybe at some point, software will, will no longer require developers to kind of oversee the conversion of thought and ideas, which is a very democratic process into code, like maybe there will, maybe there'll be no human intermediary, intermediary of that process in the future. But for now, there is. And so there's this kind of like, role that developers play, but I would not say that the core ideas are behind network are kind of owned by the developers. I would say it's kind of a it's a manifestation of what a system should be. It should be fair, should be transparent, and it should support these kinds of tools. Maybe a slightly different way of asking this question is like, okay, so with HIP3, a builder can deploy a market and they set the oracle for pricing and they set the leverage limits and settlement or whatever. And I trust the builder to do all of that. And it's all laid out very clearly and transparently. What exactly am I trusting Hyperliquid to do in that scenario? Like, what is the provision that Hyperliquid is doing for me? And what am I hope Well, If the question is for hyperliquid labs, then I think the trust assumption is that what it really is in the the output of the the kind of like node software that exists, right? And so there would be an assumption that it works. It kind of like adheres to the specification. And I think this is kind of true of any blockchain, right? Like Ethereum has a specification. It has multiple client implementations. When you run a node, you pick an implementation and you run it. And I suppose you are... trusting that implementation, or you can read it, but you're generally trusting this very complex, you know, I want to say like millions of lines of code, ultimately, you adhere to the rules of the blockchain. But like you said, all of the kind of quote unquote running of markets is done by a combination of the deployer specifying the specifications of the contract and publishing this oracle price which is a tether just some real world thing and then the kind of technology itself is sort of a reflection of the deployer's intention. And when a user, I don't think there is an inherent trust going the other way from the protocol to the deployer, because really users who use the a deployers market trade a deployers markets. That's where the the trust is, right? Like if you're trusting a contract to track the price of gold, then you are trusting implicitly that the deployer is pushing something that represents what they said it would. Some people treat ChatGPT like some kind of smart search engine, and some use it to get work done. ChatGPT Work is a new way of working in ChatGPT that can take action across your apps and files, stay with a project for hours if needed, and turn a goal into finished work. It's designed to help you move from a chaotic starting point to a reviewable first version. So all the source materials, briefs, and scattered information that you have to grind through to turn into something useful something useful. Put ChatGPT to work on your most ambitious ideas and projects. Get started at ChatGPT.com by selecting Work Mode, available on Plus and Pro plans. Running a small business takes everything you've got. But with Chase for Business, you're not alone. They bring together local support and a broad range of resources to more than 7 million customers. With a deep understanding of your day-to-day needs, they provide products and guidance built to help you thrive. Right now, earn $500 when you open a new Chase Business Complete Checking account for new business checking customers with qualifying activities. Offer expires January 21st, 2027. Chase Business Complete Checking has the flexible tools you need to accept payments, make deposits, and manage your finances with confidence. Learn more at chase.com slash podcast biz offer. Chase, make more of what's yours. Fees may apply to Chase Business Complete Checking accounts. 1-21-2027. Eligibility and qualification requirements must be met. Additional restrictions may apply. Please speak with a business banker for more information. JPMorgan Chase Bank, N.A. [50:00] Member FDIC. Quick question for you. How much of your day is spent typing? Email, Slack, notes, prompts to chat GPT. Whisperflow is a voice to text app. Instead of typing, you talk and it types for you. In any app on your Mac, Windows, iPhone, or Android. It takes out the ums, fixes the typos, and the result sounds like you wrote it. 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Visit NavyFederal.org slash Flagship Premier to find out more. Navy Federal is insured by NCUA. Terms and conditions apply for rewards. I don't know if this is like a great analogy or not, but, you know, like with the rise of ETFs and passive investing, there's all these questions about like, well, how far can that go? Don't we need some people to like trade the underlying thing? Right. And I'm curious if like there is some sort of analogy with the concept of like oracles and how much like, you know, for example, several years ago, there was an incident with a Solana based thing called Mango Markets, It was something I forget the token, but the size of the perp trading relative to the underlying token, it got so extreme that it was very easy to manipulate the underlying price that transmitted through the Oracle. And then you make a lot of money because then the thing moves price. Like what are the constraints on how like volume of perps relative to the underlying trading? And does that create a constraint for hyperlink? ad quote from Hynex and the Oracle price deviated very dramatically, causing some losses. But like, talk about the, the Oracle constraint. Yeah, so I'll take those in reverse order. The Hynix thing, this is, you know, TradeXYZ, I think, published a very detailed postmortem. So I'm just quoting here. But that falls in the category of implementation issue. Like, you know, their system kind of worked as intended. But... their system perhaps... was not intuitive. And I think they indeed found it was not intuitive. I think there were refunds, and ultimately they sorted it out. And I think these things happened, but this is kind of This is not unique to Hyperliquid, nor TradeX, nor even blockchains. This is just a software property that, you know, Apple ships operating systems with bugs and they patch it. So the first question I think is interesting, I think. A priori, you might assume that the volume ratio needs is kind of capped. Like maybe you would say, oh, there's more volume and purpose than it doesn't work because the underlying trades less. But I don't actually think that's true. I think you can I think it's healthy. And if you look at, for example, you know, futures tracking the S&P 500 versus S&P 500. the underlying components or even ETFs, right? Like there is a big volume differential there. I think the important thing is that the underlying can needs to have smart people It's not people with the ability to... provide liquidity into price moves that do not reflect the underlying value of the thing. And so this is where the market design, the mechanism is really important but you can imagine in a world where it is just perfect information about the underlying companies and someone trades a bunch of the perps because you know there's a lot more volume going on there or the futures right for the s&p 500 and then the underlying is traded very thinly and then the price moves one percent well the fact that it's traded thinly does not really matter. What matters is someone needs to be like that 1% move is not correct. Whatever size you want, I'm here to trade against you. And I think they are very, like, if you look at the S&P 500, I'm very confident that there are market makers who would happily trade at far less of a dislocation. And so you get this effect where the price discovery can happen on a derivative and the underlying can still be, you know, a reflection of some, you know, some real value in the world. Thank you. you know, you just think wouldn't work because the underlying isn't liquid enough or like it's too hard to trace a price or something like that. The protocol does not even understand what that is. Okay. [55:00] There's kind of like no semantic encoding in the protocol. What the protocol does know about is... Well, if the For example, there's a constraint at the protocol level where between two uh oracle price updates the relative difference between those two prices cannot be more than one percent but this is like a hard enforced rule and in fact when you try to push an oracle price that's say two percent away what happens is the protocol clamps it to be one percent away so that then you can push it again it's also it's actually relatively user-friendly but this you know this constraint you might think is important because given the sort of like set of leverage in the system if you move it too quickly then perhaps the system cannot mutate its state machine in a in an orderly way but if you break it down into a composition of something that's more like a continuous price It's fine. So these kinds of like, mathematical constraints the protocol very much has a lot of intentional sort of design mechanism design around but whether it's like well like this thing doesn't make sense i just don't think that question can't be answered it can't do subjective liquidity judgments it's the same way that like if you have if you're running a traditional exchange futures exchange and you have a some vendor that provides the order book software like that vendor surely does not cannot know whether you are used, the order book represents something appropriate. They say, well, here's the thing, here's the technology. It allows people to place buy orders and sell orders. You can specify a price and a size and like this is how it works. So we mentioned at the beginning, Hyperliquid, not a household name yet, but it is getting there. And it did get some attention this spring after the war in Iran broke out because here is a venue that had 24-7 WTI and Brent futures trading out. So people are sickos and they want to know, or maybe they're not sick, they really want, you know, unfortunately, the nature of war is it does, you know, it's like all the time people want to see, okay, what's happening with the price of Brent at 1am on a Sunday morning, etc. Where's the price coming from? There's no Oracle, right? That's like transmitting, there's no actual live spot cash trading or anything. So talk to us about like, what's happening at 1am on a Sunday, such that there is a price of a WTI perp. So this is up to the deployer, kind of like the previous question, the kind of semantics of what it means is a bit... It's kind of like up to the deploy to define. This is part of the specification of the contract, not in the protocol. But I do think an interesting thing to point out here is that The fact that Perpetuals by and large today have an Oracle source that is based on an underlying price 24/7 is interesting, but it's not necessary. You could actually have funding. So the mechanism of funding is basically is to kind of make the derivative trading, no matter sort of like over time converge to whatever the underlying price is, you can get that effect with periods of free floating derivative price and then periods of funding payments based on the discrepancy between the derivative and underlying. Like if you work out the math for funding, you can relax that. constraint and just I think it will converge slower if there are periods with less funding but I think the mechanism itself still accomplishes the goal. Do you have any institutional traders on the platform now? I think many of the larger, larger traders are institutions. It. It just requires significant sophistication to, for example, market make in any setting. So you're thinking, OK, look, you're here in the US and so presume and you want to get a lot more finance. So presumably at some point that's going to happen. There are a lot of, quote, legacy institutions that may be interested in figuring out how their business can work on with hyperliquid beyond just the sort of trading shops, which are probably active like. Can you talk about like, what is the sort of like the volume today? Who do you see in five years? Could you see the Van X of the world or the Round Hills or the State Streets becoming deployers, issuing stuff like when you think about where Hyperliquid could become? Could you imagine some of these household names like slotting into some of the part of the ecosystem here? Yeah, I think I would push back on them being quote unquote legacy. I think that's very much not the vision of hyperliquid, at least not how we are sort of seeing an ideal future. Legacy implies that they will be disrupted, right, or displaced. And I think the vision here is that you know, the institutions you mentioned. have great relationships with a bunch of their users, right? Like the users want to use them, they trust the brand, they provide a valuable service. I don't think any of that should change. But I think to your latter point, I think they should. It's in their interest to adopt new technology that improves their offering. There's a bit of like the analogy here with the cloud, you know, in AWS. Yeah, I think. I don't know if back then when AWS first came out and went around kind of telling people, this is a great, great technology. Like, why don't you consider using the cloud? I don't know. I don't know if the companies were like, wait. we built our own servers. Are you trying to disrupt us? I think there could have been that pushback, right? But then now, if you fast forward to today- - But basically, you could see the Van X of various eventually becoming deployed. [60:00] that it I don't even think that's I think it's remarkable and I think it's an important development, but I don't think it's a remarkable fact that that could happen. Okay. Right. This is a slightly weird question, but if you were to be regulated by the CFTC or the CME, could you see a world where the deployers are the ones who get regulated versus like the protocol? I can very much see that world. I think that's that's an astute way to say. kind of frame it. I think that's a, it's a good kind of understanding of how the Like we said, there are different roles in the setup. And I think in the same way that internet technology, TCP, IP, for example, is a technology, it It is used to kind of build financial stacks, but it is not regulated, right? The regulation sits at the layer where there are controls. And indeed, the deployers are the ones that have these exercise these controls. And so it's a very natural way for the protocol to play continue playing its role as a as a networking liquidity infrastructure layer. So just, you know. As Tracy mentioned, President Trump called out hyperliquid and said, come here. But what actually would have to happen so that an American could trade on hyperliquid in a good way, without having to use a VPN? Like what needs to happen from a regulatory standpoint, such that that actually could happen? Yeah. Well, again, you know, if you're using, if you're an American using a VPN, you're breaking in terms of the service. I think that's, don't do that. That's yeah. I mean, it's, again, it's strictly, it's, it's not a, it's not a laughing matter. I think it's like, you know, it's, it's, um, you're breaking the rules, um, but, you know, for it to happen, there needs to be, The CFTC in this case needs to... It's a good question of what they need to do. In some sense, the core principles of the CFTC are agnostic of the underlying technology. That's why they're called core principles, not like technological rules or something. But on the other hand, I think there is... a certain gap in kind of just understanding of like what is this stuff it's kind of like hot off the presses in some sense right and then the kind of regulators obviously i think are to everyone's benefit they're conservative i think they kind of want to move quickly they want to embrace innovation but there's a very heavy responsibility with that because There's an existing system that by and large works well, serves many people and has protections built in place. So I think there's very naturally this gap of wanting to understand, like, is this technology truly compatible with our core principles? And I think that's the kind of gap, because ultimately, I think the technology has a lot of benefits. And I think many people are beginning to see this. I think deployers. see this because they are day in, day out using the technology. I think regulators, you know, more conservative, slower to see it, but beginning to see it, that maybe if actually you can provably, anyone in the world can provably audit that the sum of user balances equals the amount of USCC sitting at this address, like that is actually a really good property because even in traditional settings, there are a lot of regulations in place, but there's kind of a trust there, right? Like if someone asks, you have to tell them, right? Like, okay, like here's a bet, Show them the bank account, show them the ledger of user balances. But that is a sort of... process, whereas if this is a property rather than a process, all of a sudden, I just think this kind of like aha moment is it's quite beneficial. So it's not like it's not like compliance or new tech. I hope you feel a little bit guilty about making everyone pay attention 24/7. Yeah, break. I think there should be an option. You can take it. Yeah. Oh, my God. All these poor financial journalists working on weekends now. I like being able to check votes on the weekend. Jeff Yen, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. many more questions and things to dive into, but that was a fascinating introduction. And please come back sometime. Thank you for having me. Tracy, that was a lot of fun. You know, I feel like we threw a lot at the listeners there, who are listening to like do a little more research on what these things are, particularly how perps work. Yeah. Like if you're in markets, if you care about futures, etc., I think it's very much worth knowing a little bit about the market structure of perps and how they fund, etc. Because regardless of what happens with hyperliquid specifically, etc., this quote, primitive, unquote, of perps has been growing for a long time. And I think it's very good a reason to be with us for a long time as a popular trading instrument. It feels very inevitable, as does 24-7 trading at this point. Do you have a take on why so many of these crypto things end up inventing their own language to go along with it? So, like, Deployer? Deployer, Oracle. I don't totally know. Like, I would imagine that, like, the idea of, like, a... [65:00] Oracle is probably one of these things that maybe even existed in computer stuff prior to trading where I don't I don't know. It'd be interesting to know. But I the structure of hyperliquid to me clearly feels distinct in many ways. One thing that we didn't get into, although we did. So, for example, OK, so Ethereum exists. There are different exchanges that exist on Ethereum, right? So Uniswap exists on Ethereum. One thing that's interesting and distinct about Hyperliquid from Ethereum is that in the protocol itself, it sets the rules for the exchanges. baked into the HIP3 version of the protocol is very interesting and distinct of the fact that the lab takes active governance in how these exchanges are run. I mean, look, you know, we know, for example, that on Solana or Ethereum, each probably has 10,000 dog coins, right? Those don't exist on Hyperliquid because there's this auction process. So you can't just spam the list on your dog coins. I think one other thing we didn't get into, but I think it's interesting. Let's say you and I assembled 500,000 hype tokens such that we could then be a deployer and bid into these auctions. Yeah. Now, There's already NVIDIA perps. There's already SK Hynix perps. For us to have a successful thing, part of our strategy is like, well, what's going to be the next big thing such that maybe like, you know, Central Asian ETFs like the Kazakhstan index is we think it's going to be hot. Lots of interesting questions. Oh, totally. Lots of game theory. Yeah, totally. Deploying those new markets. But should we leave it there for now? Sure, let's leave it there. This has been another episode of the All Thoughts podcast. I'm Tracy Alloway. You can follow me at Tracy Alloway. And I'm Jill Weisenthal. You can follow me at The Stalwart. Follow our producers, Carmen Rodriguez at CarmenArmin, Dash O'Bennett at DashBot, Kale Brooks at Kale Brooks, and Kevin Lozano at Kevin Lloyd Lozano. And you can chat about all of these topics 24-7, including markets and crypto, in our Discord. discord.gg slash odlods. And for even more odlods content, check out our daily newsletter, which you can find at Bloomberg.com slash odlods. And if you enjoyed this conversation, if you like it when we talk about the new rails of finance, then please leave us a positive review on your favorite podcast platform. And if you watch the video and you enjoyed the show, then please hit the like button or leave a comment or better yet, subscribe. And remember, if you're a free. Just find the Bloomberg channel on Apple Podcasts and follow the instructions there. 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