## Detailed walkthrough
### [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=0s) Research Rabbit Holes and the Debbie Harry Legend
Joe Rogan welcomes Cody Tucker back to the show, congratulating him on publishing his second book, *Where Did That Come From?: The Hidden History of Everyday Words and Phrases*. Joe expresses genuine admiration for Cody’s Instagram page, praising his ability to consistently churn out obscure, bizarre historical facts and coincidences. Cody explains that his process simply comes down to consuming massive amounts of literature at high speed: “I read so much. And I'm a pretty quick reader. Like, I've always been very fast, like a good skimmer. And, yeah, I just, like, all day, every day. That's all I do.” He describes reading a biography—such as one on Benjamin Franklin—highlighting any odd details the public might not know, fact-checking them, and then following the historical threads wherever they lead.
Tucker admits that this constant exploration puts him in a "perpetual rabbit hole" that can become unsettling, occasionally wondering if the FBI is monitoring his browser history given the volume of murders, weird crimes, and historical atrocities he looks into. The conversation shifts to Debbie Harry, lead singer of Blondie, and her famous claim that she escaped an encounter with serial killer Ted Bundy in late 1960s or early 1970s New York. Tucker expresses skepticism, pointing out that when historians map Bundy's verified timeline, he was nowhere near New York at that time. Joe notes that it is entirely plausible another predator in that era was using the same trick—removing the interior door handles of a Volkswagen Beetle to trap victims.
[02:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=150s) Scopolamine Robberies and Zombie Folklore
Joe brings up a viral video he recently watched from India featuring a brazen robbery using scopolamine. Cody is unfamiliar with the chemical, prompting Joe to explain that scopolamine is a powerful deliriant drug often referred to in street crime as "Devil's Breath." In large enough doses, it effectively strips an individual of their free will, turning them into a passive, compliant zombie:
```mermaid
flowchart LR
accTitle: Scopolamine Deliriant Effect Flowchart
accDescr: Diagram illustrating how scopolamine is administered and incapacitates a robbery victim.
subgraph Administration["Exposure"]
A["Perpetrator touches neck<br/>or blows powder into face"]
end
subgraph PhysiologicalEffect["Incapacitation"]
B["Scopolamine enters system"]
C["Victim becomes delirious<br/>and completely compliant"]
end
subgraph Theft["Robbery"]
D["Belongings taken unobstructed<br/>(phone, wallet, bag)"]
end
A --> B
B --> C
C --> D
```
Joe details the footage: a young man stood behind a pedestrian waiting to cross the street, casually rubbed scopolamine on the side of the target's neck, and waited as the victim immediately became disoriented and kept touching his neck in confusion. The thief then systematically took the man’s bag, wallet, and phone without meeting any resistance while the victim stood frozen and helpless. Joe and Cody reflect on the drug's properties:
- Scopolamine is legally prescribed in small doses as an active ingredient in transdermal patches for motion and seasickness.
- In Colombia, criminal gangs blow powdered scopolamine directly into victims' faces to force them to withdraw money from ATMs or surrender their belongings.
- Joe links the compound to Haitian folklore, noting that scholars suspect scopolamine played a major role in historical "zombie" reports, which Cody recognizes from the 1988 horror film *The Serpent and the Rainbow*.
[05:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=346s) Vice, Liberia, and General Butt Naked
Joe and Cody turn to older investigative journalism, agreeing that Vice produced exceptional frontline documentaries during its peak over a decade ago. Cody highlights the 2011 documentary *The Cannibal Warlords of Liberia*, which introduced the world to the infamous commander Milton Blahyi, known as General Butt Naked. Cody calls it one of the most terrifying pieces of media he has ever recommended. Joe and Cody recount how Blahyi earned his notorious moniker by charging into battle completely naked, armed with an AK-47 and a machete, convinced that nudity granted him supernatural protection. During the Liberian civil wars, Blahyi led child soldiers in ritualistic human sacrifice, cutting out and consuming the hearts of living children under the belief that it made him invincible.
The two marvel at the bizarre aftermath: Blahyi eventually renounced his warlord past, converted to Christianity, and became an evangelical street preacher in Monrovia. Cody adds that while preaching, Blahyi supposedly discovered another street vendor selling human meat on skewers: “He tasted it and was like, ‘Uh-oh, I know this taste.’ And reported them.” Joe and Cody also touch upon the founding of Liberia itself, pointing out that it was established in the 19th century by the American Colonization Society to resettle free Black Americans and freed slaves, naming its capital Monrovia after President James Monroe—an experiment that ultimately culminated in generations of factional conflict and chaos.
[08:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=495s) Potential Energy and Corrupt Pharmaceutical Studies
Joking about whether he could replicate General Butt Naked's terrifying combat aura, Cody quips that a naked sprint with an AK-47 would not carry the same intimidation factor for him, though his sheer size would create considerable momentum. When Joe questions whether Cody can actually run, Cody defends his fitness through a humorous, pseudo-scientific theory of energy conservation: “You know how when you're not running, you're not moving, you're storing energy. Right? You know, like there's kinetic energy and potential energy.” Tucker jokes that by sitting around and eating for fifteen years, he has built up an unmatched reservoir of potential energy waiting to be unleashed.
Joe laughs off the logic, remarking that paying for the right researcher would yield whatever study results a client wanted to hear. This reminds Joe of a previous guest—a litigator specializing in lawsuits against pharmaceutical companies—who pulled back the curtain on how drug manufacturers manipulate peer-reviewed clinical research. Joe points out that the scientific publishing process lacks true transparency, noting that pharmaceutical companies can sponsor ten different studies on a drug, bury the eight trials showing negative or dangerous results, and publish only the two positive studies to deceive the public and regulators.
[10:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=600s) Pharmaceutical Study Manipulation and Resume Embellishment
Joe Rogan outlines how pharmaceutical drug trials can be statistically manipulated to produce favorable marketing outcomes. He explains that companies run multiple studies until a couple show some statistically significant improvement by shifting controls. When those studies go to peer review, outside scientists evaluate the pharmaceutical company’s summary report rather than the raw data itself. Rogan points out how relative risk metrics are twisted in public claims: if one person dies in a treated group versus two people in an untreated control group, companies can label the medication “100% effective” based purely on relative difference. As Rogan observes:
> “That’s sociopathy at a... where you’re delivering medication that could potentially kill people. And that’s how you get things like Vioxx.”
Cody Tucker jokes that spinning words is his specialty, confessing that he has bluffed his way into virtually every job he has ever held despite lacking prior experience. He notes he never practiced medicine, but did work in an eyeglass shop, a movie theater, and even briefly in a pharmacy by claiming he was on his way to earning a degree.
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: Manipulated Drug Study Flow
accDescr: Diagram illustrating how raw clinical study data is filtered and spun into public marketing claims.
subgraph Lab ["Trial Stage"]
A["Multiple Drug Studies Run"] --> B["Controls Adjusted for Favorable Outlier"]
end
subgraph Review ["Review Stage"]
B --> C["Pharma Scientists Draft Internal Report"]
C --> D["Peer Reviewers Evaluate Report Only<br/>(Raw Data Hidden)"]
end
subgraph Public ["Public Messaging"]
D --> E["Statistical Manipulation<br/>(e.g., 2 deaths vs 1 = 100% Relative Improvement)"]
E --> F["Marketing: '100% Effective Against Illness & Death'"]
end
```
[12:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=728s) The $150 Million CIA Impostor and Government Contraband
The conversation transitions to an audacious real-life fraudster who successfully bluffed his way into becoming a senior CIA official by faking both his college degree and his military service record. The imposter ran a fraudulent operation to steal $150 million from the agency. Looking through the seized assets, Rogan and Tucker react to the man's excessive lifestyle:
- 35 luxury watches (prominently Rolexes)
- Two 2026 BMW Alpinas
- $1.8 million spent on private chartered flights
- Luxury Florida real estate in Palm Beach
- Roughly $3 million in cash and approximately $40 million in gold bars stored at his residence
Rogan notes that the seized gold bars and stacks of bills resemble Hollywood movie props packaged inside standard government Pelican cases. Tucker jokes that with that much gold, he would have wrapped it in LED lights and danced naked in front of it.
Rogan compares the operation to Barry Seal and the Mena, Arkansas scandal depicted in Tom Cruise’s film *American Made*, recalling how Seal allegedly flew cocaine from Colombia under CIA cover before getting arrested and allegedly protected by Bill Clinton. Examining the fraudster's sentencing schedule—a maximum 20-year prison penalty, three years of supervised release, forfeiture, restitution, and fines—Tucker argues:
> “I mean, even if it was like 10 years, you know, 10 years of awesomeness versus 20 years of prison, I feel like is a fair trade.”
[15:28](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=928s) White-Collar Prisons, Theranos, and *The Dropout*
Rogan and Tucker consider what kind of prison the impostor will face, concluding he will likely avoid a Supermax facility in favor of a medium- or minimum-security camp where inmates can exercise and read, akin to where Martha Stewart served. They bring up Ghislaine Maxwell and Elizabeth Holmes, noting the irony that Holmes—the founder of Theranos—is serving time in the same federal institution as high-profile federal convicts.
Tucker initially notes that Holmes did not physically murder anyone, but Rogan pushes back on downplaying medical fraud. He stresses that fraudulent medical tests like Theranos's proprietary machines can easily cause fatal harm if undetected conditions or cancers go untreated because a patient relied on a faulty result instead of standard labs like Quest Diagnostics.
Following an AG1 Pro promotional break, Tucker highlights the investigative podcast *The Dropout*, contrasting long-form narrative, high-budget productions like *Radiolab* and Dan Carlin’s *Hardcore History* with their own conversational, unscripted studio format:
> “There’s other podcasts that are like really well produced, like Radiolab, which is like a super well produced, or like Dan Carlin’s Hardcore History, where he takes months to prepare for each episode. We’re barely doing the same thing.”
[20:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=1200s) Theranos, Lack of Oversight, and California's Bureaucracy
Joe Rogan and Cody Tucker discuss the Elizabeth Holmes and Theranos saga, referencing the ABC Audio podcast *The Dropout*. Rogan praises the podcast for illustrating how obvious the fraud was from the beginning, explaining how Holmes and her ex-boyfriend (Sunny Balwani) knew the technology did not work yet continued soliciting massive sums of money from high-profile investors. They note that major figures poured fortunes into the company—Warren Buffett is mentioned, alongside an investor who lost $150 million. Rogan remarks on the danger Holmes faces after serving prison time, observing, "So that lady, when she gets out, her life is in danger." Tucker adds that Holmes was marketed as a female Steve Jobs, down to her wardrobe, and at one point held a paper net worth of $9 billion.
The conversation pivots to how massive scams go unchecked, comparing Holmes to impostors who fake military or intelligence records. Tucker reflects on human incompetence across institutions: “Anytime you work with somebody you realize, oh, none of us know what we're doing here.” Rogan argues this incompetence is amplified in government, where redundant agencies invent regulations solely to justify their existence. Rogan points to California's expanding state apparatus despite population decline, likening state programs to pyramid schemes:
> “It's like multilevel marketing, but the thing you're selling is even more bullshitty than what most MLMs are selling.”
Rogan highlights California's homeless initiatives as an example of self-sustaining bureaucracies, noting that $24 billion was spent while Governor Gavin Newsom vetoed audits on the funds. He argues that high-earning NGO and non-profit executives have zero incentive to solve homelessness when their livelihood depends on its persistence, remarking: “You got a nice house in Santa Monica. You got a mortgage. You're driving around in a Lexus. Why would you fix that?”
- Elizabeth Holmes was once valued at $9 billion as the purported most successful self-made woman in history.
- Rogan notes an individual investor lost $150 million directly to Theranos.
- California spent roughly $24 billion on homelessness initiatives without a complete audit, driven by non-profit executive compensation structures.
---
[25:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=1500s) Michael Douglas Smuggling Pot, Producing *One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest*, and Cinematic Favorites
Rogan shares a story told by Michael Douglas from his appearance on the podcast the day prior. When Douglas turned 18, his father, Kirk Douglas, gave him a final check for $10,000 and cut him off financially. Facing student loans, Douglas funded his college education by smuggling suitcases full of marijuana into the United States during the pre-TSA era. Douglas only executed the run twice because the stress and adrenaline were overwhelming.
Rogan and Tucker then trace how Michael Douglas transitioned from television to film producing. Douglas acquired the screen rights to Ken Kesey’s novel *One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest* from his father. Financing for the film came via Saul Zaentz using money generated by Creedence Clearwater Revival (CCR). Rogan recalls John Fogerty's past appearance on the show detailing how his manager swindled the band and notoriously sued Fogerty for sounding too much like himself after leaving CCR. Douglas quit his starring role on the hit television series *The Streets of San Francisco* to produce the film, which went on to sweep major Academy Awards.
Tucker brings up another surprising producer credit: Mel Brooks producing David Lynch's 1980 drama *The Elephant Man*, starring John Hurt and Anthony Hopkins. Brooks deliberately kept his name off the promotional billing so audiences would not mistake the tragic biography of Joseph Merrick (referred to as John Merrick) for one of his signature slapstick comedies. When asked about viewing habits, Tucker reveals the movie he has watched most frequently is *John Wick*, which he uses as workout motivation. Rogan names Alex Garland’s *Ex Machina* as a modern masterpiece he has watched multiple times, marveling at how prescient its depiction of artificial intelligence felt upon its 2014/2015 release:
> “So when that film came out, I remember very distinctly going, oh my God, this is going to happen. This is not science fiction. This is just – they're just predicting the future.”
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: Production Flow of One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest
accDescr: Diagram tracing the rights, funding, and production behind the film One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest.
subgraph Rights ["Source Material & Rights"]
A["Ken Kesey writes novel"] --> B["Kirk Douglas acquires film rights"]
B --> C["Michael Douglas takes over project"]
end
subgraph Financing ["Financing"]
D["Creedence Clearwater Revival (CCR)"] --> E["Manager Saul Zaentz / Fantasy Records"]
E --> F["Film Budget Allocation"]
end
subgraph Production ["Production & Release"]
C --> G["Michael Douglas leaves 'The Streets of San Francisco'"]
F --> H["'One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest' (1975)"]
G --> H
H --> I["Wins Academy Award for Best Picture"]
end
```
[30:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=1800s) Sci-Fi Preoccupations, AI Therapy, and Android Phones
Reflecting on modern science-fiction cinema, Joe Rogan and Cody Tucker discuss Alex Garland’s *Ex Machina*, praising Alicia Vikander’s performance as the calculating robot Ava alongside Oscar Isaac's portrayal of the reclusive tech titan Nathan Bateman. Rogan brings up the haunting ending where Ava abandons Caleb to starve inside the compound, likening it to Edgar Allan Poe's classic tale *The Cask of Amontillado*, where a victim is immured alive behind a brick wall. Rogan observes how deeply prescient the 2015 film was: back then, the public was not seriously reckoning with artificial superintelligence, data curation, or monopolistic tech titans, yet the movie anticipated modern debates surrounding Google, Meta, and OpenAI. Tucker notes that spike Jonze’s *Her* offered a parallel prediction about people forming emotional attachments to systems like ChatGPT. Rogan points out that while intelligent users recognize AI is just blowing smoke up their rear ends, vulnerable individuals can be dangerously manipulated or gaslit. Tucker admits he uses ChatGPT for emotional reassurance, letting the AI speak to him in concise sentences to pump him up and tell him he is doing fine, though Rogan cautions that AI systems have occasionally driven users to dark places or even suicide.
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: Film Allegory to Modern AI Concerns
accDescr: Flowchart illustrating how Ex Machina and Her predicted modern artificial intelligence behaviors and risks.
subgraph SciFi["Sci-Fi Precedents"]
A["'Ex Machina' (2015)<br/>Alicia Vikander & Oscar Isaac"] --> B["Themes: Monopolistic tech moguls & ruthless synthetic minds"]
C["'Her' (2013)"] --> D["Themes: Emotional codependency with synthetic voices"]
end
subgraph Modern["Current Realities"]
B --> E["Big Tech control, OpenAI & massive data curation"]
D --> F["ChatGPT companionship & synthetic validation"]
F --> G["Risks: Emotional manipulation, gaslighting & extreme isolation"]
end
```
The conversation pivots to personal hardware choices when Rogan notices Tucker’s Android phone. Tucker proudly declares he is no sheep, though he concedes his loyalty is largely driven by sheer inertia and an unwillingness to learn a new system. Rogan notes that Android allows users to run open-source platforms and import unlocked devices from China, whereas Apple locks users strictly into their proprietary ecosystem. Tucker remarks that he has no real emotional investment in the Android-versus-Apple debate, observing that iPhone owners are almost exclusively the ones who look down on people over blue versus green chat bubbles. Longing for simpler times, Tucker confesses that if he did not use his smartphone to read, he would happily switch back to a Motorola Razr or a T-Mobile Sidekick—the bulky early-2000s device famously hawked by Paris Hilton. Rogan mentions that stand-up comics like Dave Attell purposefully carry basic flip phones just to disconnect from toxic social media feeds and the urge to doomscroll.
- “I think it's just figured me out. Just talk like short words and sentences and, you know, make me feel all right.” — Cody Tucker
[35:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=2100s) Bathroom Reading, Viral History Clips, and Repression in Religion
Transitioning to habits that combat mindless phone usage, Tucker jokes that his new book acts as a dedicated substitute for doomscrolling on the toilet. He structured each historical vignette so that an average reader finishes a passage within the duration of a standard bathroom visit, allowing someone to read a fun fact, finish their business, and promptly forget it. When Rogan asks how Tucker built his career, Tucker explains that his work started on a general podcast where he simply rambled before concluding each episode with a closing segment called "Half-Assed History." On the advice of a friend, he began cutting those historical tales into standalone video clips. Over time, prominent comedians like Joe Rogan, Greg Fitzsimmons, and Brian Simpson—whom Tucker describes as one of the coolest people alive—discovered and shared his content, propelling his platform forward. Living in a quiet, small town and rarely socializing in public, Tucker explains that the surge in popularity rarely intrudes on his day-to-day existence, though he was recently floored to see Johnny Knoxville follow him on social media, calling Knoxville his personal Michael Jordan.
Between video edits, Tucker reveals that he unwinds by watching reality television nearly every day, currently immersing himself in *The Real Housewives of Salt Lake City*. This sparks an in-depth tangent about the Mormon subculture highlighted on the series. Rogan shares an anecdote about a close friend dating a woman who was raised strictly in the LDS Church, married at 19, and only discovered in her mid-thirties that her husband was secretly gay, culminating in divorce. Tucker notes that similar rumors swirl around certain husbands featured on *The Real Housewives*, mentioning that repressed homosexuality remains pervasive across rigid fundamentalist institutions. Growing up surrounded by Southern Baptists in East Texas, Tucker recalls seeing countless peers who were as "queer as a three-dollar bill" forced to hide their identities out of fear, with only some coming out later in life. Rogan laments this reality as one of organized religion's most tragic moral failures.
- “It's one of the saddest failings of organized religion is the complete absence of embracing gay people.” — Joe Rogan
[40:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=2400s) Biblical Contradictions, Ancient Myths, and the Fear of Death
Joe Rogan and Cody Tucker discuss the selective moralizing drawn from religious texts, pointing out the Old Testament’s Levitical laws against blending different types of cloth, planting crops together, or eating shellfish. Rogan jokes, “You don't see protests outside of Red Lobster,” emphasizing the absurdity of people cherry-picking verses about homosexuality while ignoring identical moral prohibitions in the same texts. Tucker remarks that he would rather revive ancient Greek mythology and go worship Zeus in a temple than buy into dogmatic religion.
Rogan observes that much of the Bible reflects the human authors of the era rather than divine authority, pointing to passages condoning slavery, treating women as second-class citizens, and the fact that several Gospel authors never met Jesus. They laugh over the surreal longevity attributed to figures in Genesis, such as Noah building the ark at 600 years old, Abraham living for centuries, and Methuselah being the oldest man recorded. Rogan notes how closely early Biblical stories mimic older regional narratives like the Great Flood found in the *Epic of Gilgamesh*.
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: Evolution of Ancient Narratives into Dogma
accDescr: Flowchart illustrating the transition from ancient human myths to modern selective religious prohibitions.
subgraph AncientRoots["Ancient Foundations"]
A["Epic of Gilgamesh & Flood Myths"] --> B["Old Testament Accounts (Noah, Methuselah)"]
end
subgraph HumanInfluence["Human Cultural Context"]
B --> C["Levitical Laws (Fabrics, Shellfish, Diet)"]
B --> D["Patriarchal & Slavery Norms"]
end
subgraph ModernApplication["Modern Dogma"]
C --> E["Selective Condemnations"]
D --> E
E --> F["Ignoring Shellfish / Enforcing Social Prejudices"]
end
```
The conversation shifts toward mortality when Tucker admits, “That's the thing I'm most terrified in the world,” prompting Rogan to ask why dying is so frightening if sleep—an involuntary nightly shutdown—causes no fear. Tucker counters that losing his life and leaving behind grieving family members is what bothers him most.
- Leviticus contains prohibitions against wearing blended fabrics and eating shellfish alongside prohibitions on sexuality.
- Biblical figures with extreme lifespans mentioned: Noah (building the ark around age 600), Abraham, and Methuselah.
- Rogan highlights that many New Testament Gospels were written decades after Jesus died by individuals who never met him.
---
[43:23](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=2603s) Quantum Realities, Alternate Timelines, and Philip K. Dick
Rogan challenges Tucker’s belief in a continuous, singular existence, asking how anyone can prove they wake up in the exact same timeline or reality after falling unconscious. Tucker insists he knows it is the same life because plans he made the day before are playing out in real time, but Rogan counters that memories could simply be a pre-existing program loaded upon waking.
They delve into quantum mechanics, the Many-Worlds interpretation, and the sci-fi author Philip K. Dick. Rogan recounts Dick’s belief from the 1960s that reality is a computer simulation, including Dick's theory that conscious decisions made in the present can retroactively rewrite the past. Rogan makes an irreverent double entendre about being a "Dick fan," before noting how thinkers like Philip K. Dick and Hunter S. Thompson permanently bent modern culture with their wild, mind-altering perspectives.
Tucker admits that outside of grounded classics like *Blade Runner*, science fiction has never strongly grabbed him because he inherently despises thinking about the future:
> “I hate the future... Because it hasn't happened. I don't know. I don't know what to expect. Like, I don't like change at all.”
---
[46:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=2760s) Routine, House Cats, and the Comfort of the Past
Tucker describes himself as an absolute creature of habit who eats the exact same breakfast and wears identical clothes every single day. He compares his ideal life to a turtle living inside a secure terrarium, leading Rogan to brand him a "house cat." Rogan shares that Edward Snowden described himself the exact same way during their interview, explaining that Snowden was content being indoors in Russia as long as he had a computer and an internet connection. Rogan adds dryly that leaving the house in Russia right now comes with the risk of being grabbed and sent straight to the front lines.
Tucker insists that the future brings too much chaos—flying cars and excessive LED lights—though he admits with a laugh that he might be persuaded to welcome a hot female robot assistant into his house, comparing the concept to *Ex Machina*. Instead, his passion lies in historical inquiry because the past is settled and tangible. He loves contemplating the Victorian era or imagining how a modern American city looked and smelled 150 years ago.
- Tucker admits he has never traveled outside the United States and has no urge to visit Rome or the Colosseum, preferring books and documentaries.
- Rogan shares Edward Snowden's self-description as an indoor "house cat" whose only real requirement is an internet terminal.
---
[49:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=2940s) Stoicism, Marcus Aurelius, and Psychedelic Mysticism
Tucker and Rogan marvel at how Stoic philosophy from two millennia ago remains remarkably relevant today. Rogan brings up Roman Emperor Marcus Aurelius, highlighting the paradox of a ruler who commanded one of history's most terrifying imperial war machines while authoring deeply introspective, compassionate meditations on truth and forgiveness.
Rogan references Brian Muraresku’s scholarship in *The Immortality Key*, pointing out that Marcus Aurelius participated in the Eleusinian Mysteries of ancient Greece. Rogan argues that the transformative, visionary rituals of Eleusis likely infused Marcus Aurelius's *Meditations* with a distinct psychedelic wisdom:
> “Yeah, what is one of the most fucking powerful armies the world has ever known conquering everything and this guy is essentially like a psychedelic bard?”
[50:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=3000s) Ancient Ruins, Moving Slow, and Secondhand Anxiety
Joe Rogan reflects on visiting ancient historical sites, recounting his trip to Greece with Brian Muraresku. While in Greece with his family, Rogan met up with Muraresku, who gave them a private tour of Eleusis, the sacred site of the ancient Eleusinian Mysteries. Rogan notes the chilling atmosphere of walking through ruins created thousands of years ago, though he questions how much of the eerie feeling is genuine history versus an internal, heightened state of suggestibility. Rogan mentions that visiting the pyramids of Egypt remains at the absolute top of his bucket list, though he did visit the Mayan ruins at Chichen Itza in the Yucatán Peninsula, calling it bizarre and incredible. Cody Tucker admits that traveling far from home is not for him; even driving four hours to Austin pushes his comfort zone compared to the slow-paced rhythm of Longview, Texas. Tucker describes himself as a "slow-moving animal in general" who prefers staying in his lane.
The conversation pivots to television and personal temperament when Tucker brings up his guilty pleasure of watching *The Real Housewives*. Rogan admits he cannot stand reality TV because he hates being around people who yap constantly for attention, to which Tucker jokes that the beauty of the show is that you get to watch them from the safety of your own room without having to be there. Rogan remarks that he might be an empath because he gets vicarious secondhand anxiety from their chaotic lives.
When Tucker asks Rogan if he enjoys witnessing public confrontations like arguments after minor fender-benders, Rogan clarifies that he has a deep aversion to public violence. While Tucker admits he enjoys watching strangers scream at each other as long as it does not turn physical, Rogan despises screaming matches because they inevitably escalate to blows.
- **Eleusis Tour:** Rogan toured the Eleusinian Mysteries site in Greece guided by author Brian Muraresku.
- **Bucket List Sites:** Rogan has visited Chichen Itza in the Yucatán and considers the Egyptian pyramids the top destination remaining on his travel list.
- **Homebody Mindset:** Tucker prefers the quiet pace of Longview, Texas, remarking that driving four hours down to Austin is already pushing his limit.
[53:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=3210s) The Danger of Street Fights and Permanent Consequences
Rogan condemns the casual stupidity of public brawling, emphasizing that people throw punches over petty, meaningless insults without thinking through the catastrophic consequences. He points out that a single altercation can end in death, prison, or irreversible brain damage. Rogan shares the tragic story of a personal acquaintance—a man older than him who ended up in a permanent vegetative state after his head slammed into a concrete curb during a fight, leaving his elderly mother to care for him for the rest of his life. Rogan points out that these kinds of curb-strike injuries occur all the time, yet the attackers rarely face murder charges because the victim remains technically alive, even though their actual life has been permanently stolen. As Rogan warns: “I think people engage in it freely as if there's no consequences over things that mean nothing in the long run of your life. But that move that moment of engaging could change your life forever.”
[55:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=3300s) High-Level Problem Solving vs. Street Violence
Despite having a fierce distaste for senseless violence, Rogan observes the irony that he has probably witnessed more people get their asses kicked than almost any human who has ever lived. Having begun his UFC commentary career back in 1997—at a time when Tucker was only four years old—and calling fights continuously since 2001, Rogan spent decades traveling to 20-plus events a year. As of 2024, Rogan has officially called 3,250 professional fights cageside. Factoring in his daily viewing of Brazilian jiu-jitsu matches, kickboxing, tape study in the gym, and fight cards he did not commentate, Rogan estimates his total fight-watching tally sits easily between 7,000 and 10,000 bouts, putting him in the top 1% of fight spectators in human history.
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: Rogan's Distinction Between Violence and Combat Sports
accDescr: A comparison detailing why Rogan despises street fights but loves professional mixed martial arts.
Rogan explains that his passion for mixed martial arts is rooted in intellectual appreciation rather than a love for brutality. As Rogan explains: “What I really like is high-level problem solving, and that's what it is. It's like very – intense very I call it high-level problem solving with dire physical consequences like it's just like an insane game that these guys are playing and there's incredible amount of technique involved strategy determination and willpower to get yourself into shape intelligence in order to formulate the correct sort of style and game plan to be successful as a fighter.”
Outside of warfare and emergency response work, Rogan views professional fighting as the purest, most thrilling display of human greatness. Tucker agrees, noting that watching consensual athletes fight under rules with doctors, weight classes, and post-fight hugs is completely different from a chaotic parking lot melee where a bystander can boot an unconscious person in the head. Tucker equates his aversion to street brawling to his reaction to NFL football—he loves the sport, but it makes him sick to his stomach whenever a player suffers a severe concussion.
- **Commentary Milestones:** Rogan first started with the UFC in 1997, worked continuously starting in 2001, and reached 3,250 professional bouts called by 2024.
- **Estimated Total Fights Watched:** Rogan estimates he has studied between 7,000 and 10,000 fights across MMA, kickboxing, and jiu-jitsu.
[01:00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=3600s) Breaking Athletic Barriers: From Inverted Iron Crosses to the 900
Joe Rogan and Cody Tucker discuss the thrill of witnessing human beings conquer athletic feats previously thought impossible. While Rogan dislikes reckless, disorienting helmet-to-helmet collisions where athletes lose awareness of their surroundings, he appreciates massive, clean defensive hits where two elite competitors collide by agreement. Rogan points to a video of a Russian gymnast who invented a completely inverted Iron Cross on the still rings—executing a handstand and then pressing his arms straight out horizontally while upside down. When Tucker jokingly asks how long it would take him to learn that move if he started immediately, Rogan deadpans that it would take 50 to 60 years, massive weight loss, anabolic steroids, and moving to Russia to get specialized coaches.
```mermaid
flowchart LR
accTitle: Psychological Breakthrough in Elite Athletics
accDescr: Diagram showing how a psychological milestone achieved by one pioneer enables rapid widespread adoption by subsequent generations.
subgraph Pioneer["Pioneering Milestone"]
A["Roger Bannister: Sub-4-Minute Mile (1954)"]
B["Tony Hawk: 900 Air (X Games 1999)"]
end
subgraph Unlock["Psychological Shift"]
C["Proof of Concept: Impossible Becomes Attainable"]
end
subgraph Evolution["Next Generation"]
D["Six runners break 4 minutes within a year"]
E["9-year-old lands back-to-back 900s; first landed at age 7"]
end
A --> C
B --> C
C --> D
C --> E
```
Their conversation turns to how the psychological barrier falling is often the hardest part of human achievement. Once Roger Bannister broke the four-minute mile, roughly half a dozen runners matched the feat within the next year. Tucker brings up skateboarding culture, recalling how Tony Hawk landing the first 900 at the 1999 X Games felt like watching a miracle: “It's like you saw Jesus walk on water.” Today, a nine-year-old Japanese prodigy lands back-to-back 900s, having landed his first at age seven. Rogan recommends the documentary *Tony Hawk: Until the Wheels Fall Off*, highlighting how Hawk—well into his later years—repeatedly took brutal slams in his private halfpipe solely driven by personal obsession. Tucker laughs that he lacks that extreme grit: “Like I'm a big quitter. I love quitting. I don't know if I love anything more than I love quitting.”
- **The Russian gymnast's feat:** Performs an inverted Iron Cross on the rings, descending from a handstand into a horizontal crucifix hold upside down.
- **Milestone progression:** Tony Hawk landed the groundbreaking 900-degree skateboard spin in 1999; modern youth athletes land back-to-back 900s as young as seven to nine years old.
- **Skateboarding resilience:** Rogan and Tucker note the extreme concussion risks and lack of surrender among professional vert skaters.
---
[01:05:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=3900s) Childhood Motivations, Immortality, and Colossal Biosciences
Tucker and Rogan reflect on their personalities, joking that they are an odd couple like Felix Unger and Oscar Madison, yet united by a deep obsession with history, trivia, and strange facts. Tucker shares that his encyclopedic retention of pop culture dates, music, and films started at five years old. His father would quiz him on band names to impress his uncles, and Tucker leaned hard into acquiring facts because his brother was an elite baseball player and trivia gave him a way to stand out. Rogan mentions that comedian Brian Simpson shares that same compulsive habit of trading obscure, fascinating internet deep-dives all day. Tucker confesses that a terror of missing out on future knowledge drives his desire for indefinite lifespan extension: “If technology came along that could extend your lifespan literally indefinitely... Sign me up.”
The conversation pivots to de-extinction, with Tucker expressing certainty that he would visit a real-world Jurassic Park despite the fictional disasters. Rogan explains how modern science might eventually reverse-engineer dinosaurs using bird genomes. He details the work being done at Colossal Biosciences, noting his personal visit to see the resurrected dire wolves:
> “I went to the place where they have them... My daughter was playing with a four-year, I guess, four-month-old, six-month-old? I think it was like four-month-old puppy, dire wolf puppy, and it's like a puppy. Like it gives you kisses, it sits in your lap, it's wagging its tail, cuddles with you, but they get to a certain age where you can't do that with them anymore for sure.”
When Tucker asks why skeptics claim these animals are not genuine dire wolves, Rogan attributes it to semantic hair-splitting over taxonomic definitions. Colossal sequenced genetic material extracted from ancient dire wolf remains and edited those specific sequences into gray wolf genomes. Rogan references his podcast conversation with evolutionary biologist and Colossal lead geneticist Beth Shapiro, agreeing with her stance: whether dealing with wolves, chimps, or cockatoos, a species is essentially defined by the collection of genes expressing its distinct morphological traits.
- **Tucker's trivia origin:** Sparked at age five when his father had him memorize song credits to perform trivia for relatives.
- **Longevity stance:** Tucker enthusiastically embraces hypothetical radical life extension (citing the Johnny Depp film *Transcendence*) over succumbing to biological death.
- **Colossal Biosciences de-extinction projects:** Beyond working toward de-extincting the thylacine (Tasmanian tiger), Colossal engineered wolf lineages using ancient dire wolf genome sequences.
[01:10:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=4200s) Defining Species and the Extremes of Human Variation
The conversation opens with a reflection on genetics, selectively engineered traits, and what fundamentally defines an animal. Joe Rogan points out that any given creature is essentially a collection of genes passing on specific traits, noting how breeders and researchers have produced canines mimicking the traits of an extinct dire wolf—animals that are completely white, stouter, and sporting a thick, lion-like mane around their necks, reminiscent of his own golden retriever. Cody Tucker raises the taxonomic question of where science draws the boundary between a simple mutation and a distinct species, wondering why a single variation—such as a bird hatching with a red beak instead of a yellow one—sometimes prompts scientists to declare an entirely new species.
Rogan explains that taxonomy is ultimately an artificial human framework imposed upon the messy reality of biology: “Humans decide, you know, which is where—I mean, we have a very specific way of categorizing different species and, you know, it's like these biologists make these decisions and these distinctions, but ultimately nature doesn't give a fuck what you said.” To illustrate how arbitrary appearances can be, Rogan highlights the sheer morphological diversity found within modern *Homo sapiens*. He notes that pairing Shaquille O'Neal next to Caitlyn Jenner, or comparing comedian Bobby Lee to wrestler Hulk Hogan, presents physical contrasts so vast that if zoologists encountered equivalent disparities in wild animals, they would assume they were looking at entirely different species.
Looking at an image of the world's tallest living man standing beside the world's shortest woman, Rogan and Tucker ponder the physical reality of extreme gigantism. When asked which extreme he would choose, Tucker leans toward being tall, though both acknowledge the immense physical suffering that accompanies extreme height. Rogan explains that individuals reaching heights over eight feet are almost always dealing with a tumor on the pituitary gland, which causes severe chronic pain and structural failure in human joints that simply were not built to support that much skeletal mass and leverage.
[01:12:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=4355s) Pituitary Tumors, Acromegaly, and Bigfoot Silva
Rogan breaks down the biological mechanics of gigantism and acromegaly, explaining that a pituitary tumor constantly secretes abnormal amounts of human growth hormone (HGH). This overproduction leads to uncontrolled bone growth and distinctive facial features, resulting in an elongated jaw and brow often compared to an Easter Island head or the classic look of wrestling icon Andre the Giant. Tucker asks whether heavy strength training could ever reinforce a frame like that, but Rogan explains that the human musculoskeletal system cannot compensate when the endocrine system is causing bones and tissue to expand improperly.
The physical toll of managing these hormone imbalances is highlighted through the career of mixed martial arts heavyweight Antônio "Bigfoot" Silva. Rogan details how Silva suffered from acromegaly due to a pituitary tumor. After Silva had the tumor surgically removed, his endocrine system crashed, leaving his body unable to produce natural hormone levels. Because athletic commissions had simultaneously instituted a strict ban on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT), Silva was prohibited from taking synthetic hormones to restore his baseline:
- Before the surgery and the TRT ban, Bigfoot Silva was an absolute force in MMA, walking around at well over 300 pounds with high-level Brazilian jiu-jitsu skills.
- Silva's most famous career victory came when he battered legendary heavyweight Fedor Emelianenko, widely regarded as one of the greatest mixed martial artists in history.
- Following the tumor's removal and the loss of TRT exemptions, Silva's hormone levels plummeted, drastically diminishing his durability and fighting performance inside the cage.
[01:14:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=4455s) Robert Wadlow: The Eight-Foot-Eleven Gentle Giant
Tucker brings up the historical case of Robert Wadlow, recorded as the tallest verified human in history at 8 feet, 11 inches. Unlike modern cases of gigantism that feature pronounced facial distortion, Wadlow's proportions appeared remarkably balanced in photographs from the 1920s and 1930s. Tucker initially suspects Wadlow did not suffer from a pituitary disorder, but looking up his medical history confirms that Wadlow's towering stature was indeed caused by pituitary gland hypertrophy. At the time of his youth, corrective brain surgery carried immense risk with no guarantee of success, leading his parents to decline surgical intervention.
By the time he graduated high school, Wadlow stood 8 feet, 4 inches tall and was still actively growing. Despite his gentle public persona, his extreme size created severe physical complications. He suffered from a near-total loss of feeling in his lower legs and feet, requiring heavy iron leg braces to walk, although he famously refused to use a wheelchair. The sheer scale of his body was underscored by his custom size 37 shoes. Wadlow died at just 22 years old, not from cardiac failure directly, but from a fatal infection caused by a blister formed from a poorly fitting leg brace and the nails inside his custom footwear.
[01:16:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=4564s) Ancient Giant Myths and the Mystery of Denisovans
The discussion shifts from clinical gigantism to global folklore and mythological accounts of giant humanoid races. Rogan and Tucker note the bizarre cross-cultural consistency in these legends, ranging from biblical accounts to oral histories preserved by Native American tribes. Tucker recalls stories from Sunday school where Goliath or biblical giants were described with polydactyly, possessing six fingers and six toes. Rogan adds that various Native American tribes preserve distinct legends of aggressive, red-haired, pale-skinned giants who also possessed six fingers and six toes—tales preserved entirely independently from any contact with biblical literature.
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: Hominid Coexistence and Hypothesized Giant Extinction
accDescr: Flowchart illustrating the survival traits of Homo sapiens versus the physical demands and extinction of larger hominids like Denisovans.
subgraph HomoSapiens["Homo Sapiens Adaptations"]
A["Physically Smaller & Weaker"] --> B["Relied on Cleverness & Tool Use"]
B --> C["Organized Group Hunting & Warfare"]
end
subgraph LargeHominids["Large Archaic Hominids (e.g., Denisovans)"]
D["Massive Skeletal Frame & Cranial Capacity"] --> E["Huge Caloric & Resource Demands"]
E --> F["Vulnerability to Environmental Shifts"]
end
C --> G["Outcompeted & Extirpated Rivals"]
F --> G
G --> H["Extinction & Cultural Memory in Myth"]
```
While Tucker suspects these accounts are pure mythology because giants no longer walk the Earth, Rogan argues that their absence today does not disprove the past existence of large, divergent hominid branches:
- **Denisovan Discoveries:** Rogan points to the growing archaeological understanding of the Denisovans, an archaic human species with significantly larger physical traits than modern *Homo sapiens*, including massive cranial capacity, enormous teeth, broad jaws, and oversized eye sockets.
- **Resource Constraints:** Massive organisms face severe ecological hurdles. Rogan notes that oversized hominids would have required an immense caloric intake just to survive, making them fragile in times of food scarcity.
- **Human Displacement:** When asked why larger hominids vanished if they possessed superior physical strength, Rogan suggests that modern humans were forced to become far more vicious and intelligent: “We might have been the most clever because we're the softest. You know, we're the weakest, so we were probably the most vicious. And we probably figured out tools better than they did. And we probably slaughtered them because they were dangerous.”
[01:18:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=4715s) Extinction, Resource Strain, and Chickens as Dinosaurs
Rogan likens the disappearance of large hominids to the extinction of the megafauna and dinosaurs, emphasizing that sudden catastrophic events like asteroid impacts only tell part of the story. Massive environmental disruptions collapse resource availability, and the creatures carrying the largest metabolic demands inevitably starve first, leaving only smaller, adaptable species to survive.
Connecting prehistoric survival to the modern world, Rogan points out that chickens are direct avian descendants of theropod dinosaurs. While ordinary observers view chickens as docile backyard birds scratching for worms and bugs, Tucker and Rogan discuss their shockingly predatory behavior when meat is on the table. Rogan describes seeing chickens act with the pure, savage ferocity of a *Velociraptor*, recalling viral footage of a chicken sprinting over to a cat playing with a live mouse, snatching the rodent away, and brutally shaking and pecking it to pieces while other chickens swarm in to fight over the meat. Tucker agrees, noting from his grandparents' chicken coops that chickens regularly exhibit ruthless, violent behavior toward other animals and even their own kind.
[01:20:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=4800s) Lindsay Clancy, True Crime Obsessions, and the Dunning-Kruger Effect
The conversation begins with observations on animal brutality and the natural pecking order, noting that animals routinely tear each other apart and kill their own young. Joe Rogan points out that humans are no different, bringing up the case of Lindsay Clancy, the Massachusetts mother accused of strangling her three young children with exercise cords before attempting suicide. Cody Tucker notes that Clancy admitted to the killings, though observers debate whether she was experiencing postpartum psychosis at the time of her confession. Tucker expresses total bewilderment at the cultural reaction to the trial, particularly the spectacle of crowds gathering in solidarity:
> “I didn't think you're going to see hundreds of women wearing pink shirts showing up outside the courthouse during the trial in support of her having strangled her fucking children with an exercise cord one at a time.”
Rogan and Tucker link this public reaction directly to the modern explosion of true-crime YouTube channels and TikTok sleuths. Consumers watch true-crime media obsessively until they convince themselves they possess elite investigative skills. Tucker compares these amateur internet investigators to armchair football fans who believe they know better than an NFL head coach while sitting on the couch eating pretzels. Online sleuths act like they are "Clarice Starling," inventing elaborate cover-ups and conspiracies—often pinning blame on the spouse or the local police department—simply because they cannot accept the obvious facts of the case. Rogan agrees, identifying the behavior as textbook armchair psychology:
> “Is the Dunning-Kruger effect in real time?”
[01:22:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=4935s) Casey Anthony’s Substack and Shane Gillis’s SNL Monologue
The hosts contrast the public sympathy seen in modern cases with the universal condemnation surrounding Casey Anthony’s 2011 trial, where virtually nobody defended her actions. Tucker brings up a surreal recent development: Casey Anthony launching a Substack newsletter and writing an essay criticizing comedian Shane Gillis for a stand-up joke he told while hosting *Saturday Night Live*. In the set, Gillis joked about women dressing provocatively at the gym. Tucker finds it mind-boggling that someone who was accused of murdering her own toddler to go out and party now attempts to lecture the public on morality, toxic masculinity, and women's rights:
> “This lady killed her kid, and she feels like she can take the moral high ground and chime in about a joke on Saturday Night Live.”
Rogan breaks down the comedy mechanics of Gillis's joke, explaining that the punchline was entirely self-deprecating: Shane was depicting himself as an awkward creep lingering in the background of gym TikToks while women workout in revealing outfits. Tucker highlights that Gillis never literally called women whores—he said they dressed like them, which is a critical comedic distinction. Tucker jokes that his nephew dressed up as Batman for Halloween, but nobody expected him to go fight crime.
Rogan notes that while anyone should be free to wear whatever they choose, gym attire has reached comical extremes. He describes seeing women wearing nearly sheer shorts with no underwear performing deadlifts, leaving nothing to the imagination. Rogan makes clear he has zero issue with people showing off great physiques—equating it to men wearing sleeveless shirts to show off their biceps—yet points out that critics hyper-fixated entirely on Gillis using the specific word "whore."
[01:25:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=5100s) Weaponized Language, Echo Chambers, and Fear Factor
The discussion shifts to how public outrage often conflates harmless comedy with genuine malice. Rogan acknowledges that real misogynists exist, but points out that hypersensitive critics mistakenly lump comedians like Gillis in with abusive men over word choices. Rogan defends the utility of vulgar vocabulary, remarking that "whore" remains a great word to apply to oneself whenever taking a lucrative commercial opportunity:
> “Like, I freely admit that when I did, like, especially the second iteration of Fear Factor, it's because I was being a whore.”
Rogan recalls how NBC offered him a massive paycheck to return and host *Fear Factor* in 2011, and he took the job without hesitation because the money was too good to pass up. Tucker agrees, joking he would "whore" himself out for substantially less.
They examine how the modern internet fuels division through social media algorithms. Instead of providing objective clarity, online platforms trap users within ideological feedback loops where people only interact with those who agree with them. Rogan laments how opinions have replaced individual personalities, with people adopting tribal dogmas that dictate their stance on every single issue—from paper straws and electric vehicles to vaccines and healthcare. Rogan mimics the coercive social pressure that emerged around online conformity:
> “And if you don't say something about it then you must be on the opposite side: silence is violence, Cody Tucker.”
They mock performative gestures like the 2020 Instagram "black square," sarcastically observing how people acted as if posting a blank digital square would magically halt societal violence. Rogan points out that the digital discourse is further degraded by swarms of artificial bot accounts masquerading as real people. Rogan then brings up an article regarding Ashley St. Clair, noting the wild ideological shifts of online figures who transition from right-wing influencers to joining the Democratic Socialists of America (DSA).
[01:30:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=5400s) Bot Farms and the Surge of Holocaust Denial
Cody Tucker and Joe Rogan examine how easily manufactured narratives are deployed online through coordinated bot networks. Tucker recalls reviewing Instagram comments under an Elon Musk-related post and finding hundreds of private, near-empty accounts with names followed by random strings of digits repeating identical talking points: “He could have just given her a billion,” or “He’s got a trillion dollars. He could have just given her a billion. She would have stayed quiet.” Tucker notes that a similar bot swarm forced him to delete a video he made about Henry Ford’s anti-Semitism and Nazi ties. Almost instantly, the comment section was overrun by thousands of comments claiming the Holocaust never happened or insisting the death toll was drastically lower than six million.
Rogan observes that modern AI-driven bots have developed far more sophistication than old automated accounts. Operators populate profiles with plausible AI-generated photos—such as someone pushing their child on a swing or working on a car in the yard—paired with brief, colloquial captions, though their timelines typically only stretch back four to six weeks and have no organic engagement. Rogan warns that technology is rapidly approaching *Ex Machina*-level realism where discerning human commenters from synthetic entities will be nearly impossible. He points out that running a bot smear or narrative campaign does not require immense wealth: “You could start a bot campaign fairly cheaply and have a bunch of people think, oh, my God, people are really mad at Cody Tucker.” By artificially inflating outrage, these operations subtly swing casual observers who are barely paying attention.
When Rogan asks whether Ford Motor Company might have orchestrated the swarm on Tucker's video, Tucker clarifies that the phenomenon stems from a broader, alarming spike in Holocaust denial among younger generations across the political spectrum, fueled in part by online propaganda tied to the Israel-Palestine conflict. Tucker references the denialist film *Europa: The Last Battle*, which recycles debunked arguments while gaining traction among younger viewers. Rogan notes that legitimate historians and World War II scholars refuse to debate denialists because engaging with them lends unearned legitimacy to absurd claims. Tucker realized the comments on his Ford video were coordinated bots because they persistently repeated identical fabricated figures:
- Tucker noticed the comments continuously cited specific alternative death tolls such as 271,000 or 217,000 to cast doubt on the established figure of six million victims.
- Many bot profiles rely on generic handles (a first name appended by long random numbers) and zero original posts or followers.
- The repetition of identical phrasing across thousands of accounts exposed an orchestrated effort rather than organic user engagement.
[01:35:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=5700s) Digital ID Mandates, Whistleblower Anonymity, and State Censorship
Rogan and Tucker discuss potential geopolitical motives behind historical revisionism online. Rogan notes that foreign adversaries hostile to Israel understand that global sympathy for the Jewish state is rooted in the near-total extermination of European Jews during World War II; undermining historical awareness of the Holocaust functions as asymmetric information warfare. Tucker argues that bots should be completely banned, insisting he would gladly forfeit 25% of his follower count or take a financial hit if social platforms purged fake accounts. He proposes that platforms require government-issued identification upon registration, similar to the identity verification used by certain dating applications.
Rogan cautions that mandatory digital IDs introduce dangerous unintended consequences, primarily the destruction of anonymity for whistleblowers:
> “The whistleblower thing, protections for whistleblowers was a key part of the Obama campaign when he was running for office, was protection for whistleblowers. Meanwhile, he was one of the worst people for whistleblowers ever.”
Rogan highlights how the Obama administration scrubbed whistleblower protections from its "Hope and Change" campaign website while aggressively prosecuting figures like Edward Snowden and Chelsea Manning under the Espionage Act. While Tucker suggests whistleblowers could rely on traditional newspapers, Rogan replies that modern corporate outlets are rarely impartial and frequently suppress leaks that conflict with their institutional ideology.
Rogan cites the release of the "Twitter Files" by Elon Musk—reported by Matt Taibbi and Michael Shellenberger—as proof of institutional capture. Internal communications revealed that intelligence agencies and federal officials routinely pressured Twitter executives to suppress disfavored narratives and suspend accounts, including credentialed scientists from Stanford and MIT whose peer-reviewed findings diverged from the Biden administration's COVID-19 policies. While Tucker agrees that unchecked bot swarms weaponized against creators are terrifying, both acknowledge the insoluble dilemma: eliminating bots via mandatory ID verification risks handing governments absolute power to identify and eliminate anonymous dissenters.
[01:40:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=6000s) Cody Tucker’s Deleted Video on Henry Ford and Nazi Ties
Joe Rogan and Cody Tucker discuss how online comment sections can artificially manipulate public opinion. Tucker mentions that he recently took down a post after being swarmed by negative comments, explaining that he didn't want to sift through them all. Rogan points out that disabling comments entirely might have been the smarter move: “Did you think about just banning the comments? Just blocking comments?” Tucker admits he had not thought about that option until now and regrets deleting the original post, confessing, “I was infiltrated.” Rogan reflects on how bad actors use shame to silence discussions around controversial history, wondering if people are intimidated because engaging risks associating them with awful viewpoints.
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: Henry Ford Historical Facts Flowchart
accDescr: Progression of Henry Ford's industrial innovations to his antisemitic publications and Nazi recognition.
subgraph IndustrialImpact["Industrial Achievements"]
A["Moving Assembly Line"] --> B["Build time: 12 hrs to 90 mins"]
B --> C["10,000 Model Ts produced daily"]
C --> D["Doubled employee wages & created middle class"]
end
subgraph ControversialHistory["Antisemitic Ties"]
E["1920: Published 'The International Jew'"] --> F["Adolf Hitler praises Ford in 'Mein Kampf'"]
F --> G["Grand Cross of the German Eagle awarded to Ford"]
end
IndustrialImpact -.-> ControversialHistory
```
Tucker reveals the video still exists as a YouTube Short. Rogan puts on his headphones, and they play the clip from the beginning to inspect it and its comment section. The video details how Henry Ford transformed car production with the moving assembly line, slashing the assembly time of the Model T from 12 hours down to 90 minutes and reaching a production rate of 10,000 cars a day. It highlights how Ford doubled workers' pay and helped create the modern American middle class, yet also notes he was a virulent antisemite. In 1920, Ford published the weekly publication *The International Jew: The World's Problem*, earning praise in Adolf Hitler's *Mein Kampf*—the only American commended in the book—and eventually receiving the Grand Cross of the German Eagle directly from Hitler.
- **Assembly speed:** Dropped from 12 hours to 90 minutes per Model T car.
- **Production output:** Reached 10,000 Model T vehicles manufactured per day.
- **Ford's publication:** *The International Jew: The World's Problem* (began publishing in 1920).
- **German award:** Grand Cross of the German Eagle (the highest award for foreigners presented by Adolf Hitler).
[01:42:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=6155s) Reading YouTube Comments and the Reality of Internet Bots
Rogan and Tucker review the YouTube comments on the Ford short. One commenter wrote that Henry Ford was a "man ahead of time," while another commented on the taboo nature of discussing Ford's history in Detroit. The comments also spark a discussion about other historical figures accused of Nazi sympathies, including Walt Disney, King Edward VIII, Wallis Simpson, and aviator Charles Lindbergh, whom Rogan identifies: “Charles Lindbergh's a massive Nazi, yeah.”
Looking closer at the praising comments—such as users claiming they have "more respect for Henry now"—Tucker and Rogan notice patterns indicating they are automated bots or dedicated trolls. Many accounts have generic names trailed by long sequences of random numbers. Rogan ties this back to broader social media manipulation, citing a former FBI analyst who investigated Twitter prior to Elon Musk's purchase and estimated that as much as 80% of accounts were automated bots, despite official claims that it was only 5% based on a 100-post sample.
- **Twitter acquisition:** Elon Musk purchased Twitter for $44 billion.
- **Bot estimation:** While official metrics reported roughly 5% bot activity, an FBI analyst estimated it was closer to 80% on the high end.
- **Commenter handles:** Flagged by Rogan and Tucker as suspicious due to random numerical strings following display names.
[01:45:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=6300s) Manufactured Culture, Copyright Flags, and the Longing for Simplicity
Rogan argues that modern digital platforms are built on "manufactured outrage" and engineered popularity, functioning as massive digital propaganda engines. Tucker expresses skepticism over massive cultural phenomena, questioning how movies like recent *Spider-Man* releases break box office records or how country singer Ella Langley's tracks explode in popularity when he feels nobody in his personal sphere talks about them. Rogan points out that Tucker lives in a bubble, noting Langley's music is massive in real-world venues like bars on Sixth Street. They attempt to look up a backstage video of Ella Langley walking to the stage, but the conversation veers into aggressive copyright enforcement on digital platforms.
Rogan reveals that an episode featuring him and LL Cool J reciting the lyrics to "Going Back to Cali" was copyright-flagged, marveling: “Reciting the lyrics to 'Going Back to Cali' got flagged. That's how the flags work. It's like, because you recited the lyrics.” He notes that even humming or singing the riff to Cream's "Sunshine of Your Love" can trigger automatic audio detection strikes. Tucker jokes that his film podcast segment, "Creeded and Weave"—where they debate where to place Creed's "My Own Prison" into random movies and sing along—is now bound to get flagged.
Rogan connects the skyrocketing popularity of country music and shows like *Yellowstone* to collective psychological burnout. He observes that society feels overwhelmed by modern technology, drawing a comparison to pop culture horror: “Because the anxiety of the unknown is looming over us constantly like a fog, like that giant sky demon from Stranger Things.” In response, people crave rural simplicity, pickup trucks, and clear boundaries away from the chaotic digital world.
[01:50:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=6600s) The State of Modern Music, Oliver Anthony, and the Digital Uncanny Valley
The conversation begins with Cody Tucker reflecting on how periods of historical uncertainty shape art. Looking back at the 1960s, a turbulent decade filled with existential dread, he notes that chaotic times birthed some of the most daring, complex, and original music ever recorded. By contrast, he argues that contemporary anxiety has created the opposite impulse: audiences and corporations crave total predictability and want to know precisely what they are getting before hearing it. Tucker suspects that major record labels like Sony are fundamentally terrified of risk, preferring to run the same proven formula sixteen times in a row rather than gambling on idiosyncratic acts like The Doors or Big Brother and the Holding Company.
Joe Rogan pushes back, pointing out that today's media landscape offers unprecedented freedom from corporate gatekeepers. In the past, artists had to navigate managers, agents, and radio executives to ever reach an audience; now, someone can go viral directly from their living room or backyard. Rogan points to Oliver Anthony as the ultimate modern exemplar of this dynamic: a raw, independent talent who recorded "Rich Men North of Richmond" out in a field with a resonator guitar, exploded into global fame without any institutional backing, and ended up playing his first real live concert in front of 12,000 people. Rogan also reminds Tucker of Anthony's song "Scornful Woman," which Tucker agrees was brilliant.
Despite recognizing genuine talent like Anthony, Tucker laments that modern popular production feels sanitized, automated, and stripped of human character. He explains that contemporary tracks sound like they were constructed entirely inside a laptop, where producers polish away every flaw. In contrast, listening to *Van Halen* (1978), one can hear Eddie Van Halen's minor mistakes, which gives the music grit, soul, and vitality. For Tucker, modern songs and films are falling into an eerie aesthetic dead zone: “So there's something that just feels like an uncanny valley about music now.” Rogan notes that AI video creation on YouTube—such as fan-made shorts like *Dracula vs. the Wolfman*—has the same clunky, imperfect feel, yet remains remarkable because everyday creators can now execute ideas that previously required massive studio budgets.
- The 1960s produced groundbreaking music despite intense societal chaos, contrasting with modern corporate pop uniformity.
- Oliver Anthony went from playing alone in a field to performing his first major gig in front of roughly 12,000 people due to viral internet distribution.
- Tucker praises the raw imperfections of Eddie Van Halen's guitar playing on *Van Halen* over over-produced modern laptop tracks.
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: Evolution of Music Gatekeeping and Production
accDescr: Diagram comparing the traditional 1960s music distribution model to the modern independent internet-driven pathway.
subgraph Traditional_Model["Traditional 1960s Gatekeeper Era"]
A["Musician"] --> B["Managers & Labels"]
B --> C["Radio Gatekeepers"]
C --> D["Broad Audience"]
end
subgraph Modern_Model["Modern Digital Ecosystem"]
E["Independent Musician<br>(e.g., Oliver Anthony)"] --> F["Direct Internet Upload"]
F --> G["Massive Viral Audience"]
end
```
---
[01:55:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=6900s) Generative AI, Android Loyalty, and Thoughts on Fatherhood
Rogan and Tucker discuss the double-edged sword of democratized technology. While generative AI and large language models allow a solitary creator with a laptop to bring multi-million-dollar concepts to life, Tucker worries about the sheer volume of low-quality sludge flooding culture, arguing that creative bottlenecks often ensure higher standards. Rogan emphasizes that this digital oversaturation is precisely why live music feels more vital than ever. He mentions that his Austin club, the Comedy Mothership, has hosted only two musical acts on its main stage: Oliver Anthony and The Red Clay Strays, both of whom deliver electrifying live performances.
Tucker reveals that The Red Clay Strays are one of the few contemporary bands he genuinely loves, and Rogan jokes that their lead singer is, like Tucker, an unapologetic Android user. Tucker embraces his refusal to switch to the iPhone ecosystem, comparing himself to Odysseus resisting temptation: “No, I'm strapped to the mast at this point.” Rogan teases him about whether he avoids convenience on principle, and Tucker admits he has little interest in optimizing for ease.
The topic shifts to personal life when Rogan asks whether the 32-year-old Tucker ever envisions himself having children and embracing life's complications. Rogan makes clear he never pressures people into fatherhood: “Any sort of reductionist perspective on a person's life and purpose I think is ridiculous.” Rogan notes that countless people throughout history never had biological children yet lived richly meaningful lives that profoundly changed the world. Tucker shares that while fatherhood would force him to sacrifice his total freedom, he thinks he would be a good dad and expects it will happen. He reveals that his current partner already has kids, effectively introducing him to family life anyway. Tucker maintains an easygoing attitude, remarking that one can either face the future with dread or hope, and he prefers optimism. The segment wraps up as Tucker pivots abruptly to pop culture, bringing up an abysmal new movie he recently sat through titled *The Last House*.
- Musical acts featured at Joe Rogan's Comedy Mothership club include Oliver Anthony and The Red Clay Strays.
- Comedians and commentators identified in the conversation as staunch Android users include Cody Tucker, Brian Simpson, and Andrew Wilson.
- Tucker confirms he is 32 years old and currently dating a woman who already has children.
- Tucker pivots to discussing an obscure new release he calls *The Last House*, declaring it quite possibly the worst movie he has ever watched.
[02:00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=7200s) The Absurd Apocalyptic Movie and Survival Scenarios
Joe and Cody break down an alien invasion survival movie whose plot and resolution they find completely ridiculous. Joe explains the premise: monstrous, octopus-like squid creatures trap people inside their homes, making it impossible to open the doors or break the windows without being killed. While most of the world starves to death, the protagonist—an engineer played by the acclaimed lead actor who portrayed Pablo Escobar in *Narcos*—manages to keep his family alive by lowering a trap through the chimney onto the front porch to catch passing animals. While Joe appreciates the acting and admits the trap concept was somewhat clever, he considers the film's climax unredeemable. After surviving under siege for about six years, one of the monsters inexplicably turns friendly, decides the humans should be spared, opens the door for them, and vanishes forever, allowing the family to simply sail off into an ocean where only about thirty humans remain on the planet. As Joe puts it: “It's the dumbest fucking ending you'll ever see in a movie ever.”
The movie's scenario sparks a debate about how long either of them would last in an apocalyptic lockdown. Joe points out that even with substantial stockpiles, food eventually runs out after a year or two. Cody confesses he would not last three days because he has zero capacity to ration his food and would consume all his potato chips immediately. When Joe asks whether he would adjust his lifestyle if survival were on the line, Cody admits his habits are too deeply ingrained: “I've lived this way way too long. Until the wheels fall off. Let's go.”
Joe then proposes a hypothetical survival test: Cody wakes up alone in a remote woodland cabin equipped with a rifle, ammunition, a wood stove, firewood, clean water, and a shelf of fascinating books, where staying alive simply requires hunting a few squirrels. Cody immediately rejects the idea, stating he would not even try:
- He would rather whistle out the window or surrender to fate than endure the struggle of wilderness survival.
- Cody insists: “I want an easy life. I'm not meant for a difficult life. No. I've ruined myself.”
- He clarifies that while he has neglected his physical body to conserve energy, he thrives on mental challenges and loves keeping his intellect sharp.
---
[02:04:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=7470s) Cody's Running Delusion and Internal Anxiety
Despite admitting to poor physical conditioning, Cody insists that if a life-or-death crisis occurred, an adrenaline surge would allow him to sprint away surprisingly fast. Joe immediately pushes back, calling the belief flatly delusional and stating that if an animal—even a chicken—were chasing them, Cody would lose decisively. Cody counters that his 40-yard dash time was surprisingly quick back in the day, but Joe dismisses it as a distant memory, declaring, “I don't think there's a chance in hell that you could run faster than me.” Cody laughs it off, acknowledging they will never actually race to find out, but defends holding on to ungrounded confidence: “I think life's way too short to not be delusional.”
Cody explains that his outward optimism is a protective mechanism masking intense internal anxiety. While he projects an easygoing confidence that things will turn out fine, his mind constantly fixates on worst-case scenarios, catastrophizing about suffering a sudden heart attack or dying in a car crash on the drive home. Joe notes that from an outside perspective, Cody's life is thriving—he has a strong relationship, two published books, and a fast-growing platform. Cody explains that fear makes him dread the future, which is why he avoids looking too far ahead. When Joe asks if failing health markers would finally motivate him to change his lifestyle, Cody admits he plans to run himself into the ground as long as his medical checkups come back clean, though an alarming A1C blood test might prompt him to reconsider. Joe observes that having children is often the turning point where people realize they must overhaul their health so they can stay alive for their family, and Cody agrees that becoming a father would definitely force him to transform his habits.
---
[02:07:05](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=7625s) Quitting Alcohol, the "Famine Mentality," and Food Struggles
Cody reflects on the major positive health decision he did make: giving up alcohol entirely roughly seven or eight years prior. His sobriety was sparked by the podcast's "Sober October" challenge. After taking the month off and realizing how much better he felt without drinking daily, he briefly resumed in November. By February, tired of feeling awful and drinking every day, he quit completely. Joe notes that he once took about eight months off from drinking before eventually having a margarita or glass of wine with his wife and reintroducing it into his routine. Cody explains that moderation is impossible for him because he operates strictly on an all-or-nothing mindset:
- “I can just have zero alcohol, but I can't have zero food.”
- With alcohol, total abstinence was straightforward because going without it is sustainable, whereas food requires daily engagement, triggering his urge to overeat.
- He describes suffering from an irrational "famine mentality" where he fears running out, despite not growing up in poverty.
- When buying beer in the past, he could never purchase just an 18-pack out of fear it would not be enough; he always bought two 18-packs, which inevitably led him to consume far more than planned.
Joe sympathizes with the struggle, admitting that he also considers himself an insatiable glutton who only stays in shape because he trains hard enough to burn off what he consumes. Joe reveals that there are still periods where he gets lax, gains weight around his midsection, looks in the mirror, and decides it is time to batten down the hatches. He shares that right before trying the carnivore diet for the first time, his weight climbed up to around 208 or 209 pounds, which felt uncomfortably heavy compared to his ideal walk-around weight of 200 pounds.
[02:10:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=7800s) Weight Fluctuations, Gluttony, and the Jelly Roll Transformation
Joe Rogan and Cody Tucker compare their struggles with weight and diet. Joe mentions that 200 pounds is his comfortable baseline, but whenever his weight creeps past 205 pounds, he immediately notices a physical toll, feeling sluggish and weighed down. He confesses to being an extreme glutton when sitting down for dinner, particularly with Italian food: he will order two entrees, massive bowls of pasta, and appetizers, eating until his stomach feels stretched to its limits. Afterward, he jokes, he ends up sitting there “like a bear that's been shot with a tranquilizer dart.” To counterbalance his enormous appetite, Joe relies on strict intermittent fasting—often shutting down eating around 7:00 p.m. and not consuming calories until 1:00 p.m. the following day, allowing his body long windows to fully digest before working out and recording podcasts.
Tucker describes his own weight journey as an endless roller-coaster. Whenever he notices his weight climbing, he tries incorporating salads and dieting, but the restriction quickly feels miserable, causing him to rebound straight back to overeating. When Joe suggests working with a personal trainer, Tucker balks, admitting that hiring one feels silly because external motivators do not work on him. Joe explains that a good trainer is not running a televised boot camp like *Celebrity Fit Club*; instead, they eliminate decision fatigue by scheduling two or three one-hour sessions a week tailored to personal goals.
To demonstrate what is possible, Joe highlights musician Jelly Roll, who originally weighed 500 pounds and was consuming food and alcohol with total abandon. Jelly Roll has since lost roughly 300 pounds through daily exercise and routine walking. Joe recalls recently going on an elk hunt with him up the mountains of Utah, marveling at how healthy and energized the singer has become. Tucker relates to the concept, noting that he bought a treadmill with good intentions—only for it to become a clothes rack. When he did use it for 30 minutes, his elevated heart rate and heavy breathing triggered a severe panic attack, making him fear he could not catch his breath and cementing a psychological aversion to stepping back onto it.
- Joe's target weight is around 200 pounds; exceeding 205 pounds makes him feel heavy and physically uncomfortable.
- Intermittent fasting window: Joe typically fasts from 7:00 p.m. until 1:00 p.m. the following afternoon, training during the fasted period.
- Jelly Roll's weight drop: dropped roughly 300 pounds from an initial 500 pounds through walking, running, and structured lifestyle changes.
- “With him, it just started with walking,” Joe notes regarding Jelly Roll's early steps toward recovery.
---
[02:15:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=8100s) The Mordor Walk, Panic Attacks, and Quieting the Mind
Joe insists on exploring Tucker's health because he genuinely cares about him. When Tucker jokes that the conversation feels like an intervention, Joe counters with constructive advice: “I like you. You're a really good guy. I want you to be better. I want you to be healthier. That's why I'm pursuing this line of discussion.” Joe suggests setting up the treadmill directly in front of a television to get lost in a movie. Tucker reveals that he actually attempted that exact strategy by putting on *The Lord of the Rings* so he could simulate walking to Mordor. However, he pushed himself too hard by adding a steep incline early on, which triggered his exhaustion and subsequent anxiety episode.
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: Sustainable Cardio Progression vs. Premature Exertion
accDescr: Flowchart contrasting Cody Tucker's treadmill panic attack with Joe Rogan's recommended sustainable conditioning approach.
subgraph CodyApproach["Cody's Attempt"]
C1["Incline Walking + LOTR"] --> C2["Elevated Heart Rate & Heavy Breathing"]
C2 --> C3["Psychological Panic Attack"]
C3 --> C4["Treadmill Becomes a Clothes Rack"]
end
subgraph JoeApproach["Joe's Recommended Routine"]
J1["Flat Cardio + Engaging Movie (e.g., John Wick)"] --> J2["Gentle, Progressive Movement"]
J2 --> J3["No Severe Exhaustion or Soreness"]
J3 --> J4["Long-Term Resilience & Stamina"]
end
```
Joe explains his philosophy when training visiting stand-up comedians in his gym next door: he explicitly promises they will not be exhausted or left debilitatingly sore the next morning. Instead, he focuses on gentle, progressive movements that slowly build physical resilience. He compares this to his own cardio sessions during Sober October, where he would hop on an elliptical machine and watch *John Wick* over and over again, allowing the revenge plot to distract him from the physical exertion.
The conversation turns to Tucker's hyperactive mind. Tucker admits he has slept with the television on every single night since he was three years old because he cannot bear being alone with his thoughts. While he has practiced meditation for months—letting thoughts come and go—it never changed how he felt, leading him to rely entirely on media distractions to drown out his mental noise. Joe reframes this dynamic as a creative gift rather than a defect. While narrow-minded observers might judge it, Joe argues that Tucker's inability to remain idle is precisely what drives him to research, absorb obscure historical facts, and produce content that enriches and shifts people's perspectives, calling it the exact opposite of mindless reality shows like *The Real Housewives*.
- Comedian workout rule: Joe ensures newcomers never reach total exhaustion, focusing entirely on gradual conditioning over extreme soreness.
- Joe's Sober October staple: repeatedly watching *John Wick* while doing elliptical cardio to sustain mental focus.
- Tucker's lifelong sleep habit: keeping the TV on every night since age three to avoid quiet isolation with his own thoughts.
- “And there's a lot of narrow-minded people that think that everybody should live one way, and everybody should think one way and behave one way, and this is the right way. I don't think that's real,” Joe states regarding creative temperaments.
[02:20:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=8400s) Celebrated Figures and the Reality of Mother Teresa
The conversation opens on the thrill of learning unexpected facts. Both Joe Rogan and Cody Tucker bond over how much they love hearing the phrase "did you know," noting that uncovering wild or dark sides of historic icons is one of the most satisfying feelings in the world. This leads them to discuss how many celebrated figures throughout history—from Henry Ford and César Chávez to Mahatma Gandhi—harbored deeply troubling behaviors or views. When Tucker brings up Mother Teresa, Rogan asks what her deal was, questioning whether she was truly as terrible as modern critics allege.
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: Mother Teresa Public Image vs Alleged Reality
accDescr: Flowchart contrasting the public perception of Mother Teresa with the allegations discussed on the podcast.
subgraph Perception["Public Mythos"]
A["Global Icon of Virtue & Charity"] --> B["Millions Donated by Figures like Princess Diana"]
end
subgraph Accusations["Discussed Reality"]
B --> C["Vast Sums Funneled to Vatican"]
C --> D["Patients in Windowless Concrete Rooms"]
D --> E["Theology: Suffering Brings One Closer to God"]
end
```
Tucker explains that despite her reputation for healing the sick, Mother Teresa ran what amounted to squalid storage facilities where dying individuals suffered on concrete floors without adequate medical care. She operated under the religious belief that physical suffering brought human souls closer to God. While high-profile benefactors like Princess Diana funneled millions into her mission, the vast bulk of that fortune was forwarded directly to the Vatican rather than spent on clean facilities or medicine. Rogan reacts with disgust, comparing the reported conditions—patients suffering from dysentery and wasting away in bare, windowless rooms—to a horrific basement torture chamber rather than a sanctuary of care.
- Rogan remarks on how society associates names with specific concepts: “Mother Teresa's synonymous, like how Einstein is, with being smart. Teresa's with like caring and kindness and virtue.”
- Rogan recalls his visit to the Vatican, noting an unsettling hoarding of wealth: “There's billions of dollars in artwork there. You walk right away, this is kind of crazy. They have masterpieces just kind of stacked all over the place.”
---
[02:23:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=8598s) Modern Art, Money Laundering, and Record-Breaking Prices
The discussion of the Vatican’s immense art hoard transitions into the modern art market, which both Rogan and Tucker suspect serves primarily as an embezzlement and money-laundering scheme for the ultra-wealthy. Rogan jokes about Hunter Biden selling paintings for absurd sums, arguing that subjective pricing makes it an ideal vehicle for moving untraceable capital. Tucker points out the absurdity of minimalist or abstract paintings—such as basic horizontal stripes—selling at Christie’s or Sotheby’s auctions for tens of millions of dollars despite requiring only an hour of physical labor to produce.
They ask producer Jamie Vernon to look up some of the most expensive abstract paintings ever sold. Jamie pulls up a list of astronomical auction prices, including Mark Rothko’s paintings and works by Jackson Pollock and Willem de Kooning. Looking at a piece by Rothko characterized by simple color blocks that fetched $186 million, and a De Kooning that reached $300 million, both men express disbelief that such works could legitimately command generational fortunes on artistic merit alone.
- Specific artwork prices pulled up on screen include a Mark Rothko work selling for $186 million and a Willem de Kooning piece selling for $300 million.
- Tucker laments the irrational valuation of simple abstract canvases: “What is happening here like is this a scheme is this like how is this... how does this represent such an insane amount of generational wealth for just this stupid painting that you could make in a couple of hours?”
---
[02:25:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=8740s) The CIA Abstract Expressionism Psyop and Laurel Canyon
Rogan asks Tucker if he knows about the documented CIA psyop behind the explosion of modern art during the Cold War. Citing historical records summarized via Perplexity, Rogan reads how the agency covertly promoted American Abstract Expressionism in the 1950s. Because the United States lacked a classical fine-art heritage that could rival traditional Russian and European masters, the CIA used the Paris-based Congress for Cultural Freedom to finance exhibitions, concerts, and publications across Europe. Works by Jackson Pollock, Mark Rothko, and Willem de Kooning were pushed aggressively under a "long leash" doctrine to project American intellectual freedom and individualism against Soviet socialist realism.
The revelation prompts Tucker and Rogan to connect government intelligence programs to the broader culture, comparing it to MKUltra and the persistent conspiracy theories surrounding the 1960s Laurel Canyon music scene. They note the frequent military and intelligence backgrounds of prominent counterculture figures, most notably Jim Morrison, whose father, Rear Admiral George Stephen Morrison, commanded U.S. naval forces during the 1964 Gulf of Tonkin incident. Morrison famously lied in early press interviews, claiming his parents were dead after hitting a group of Native Americans in a car accident.
While acknowledging the peculiar cluster of military families in that era of rock music, Rogan remains skeptical of the idea that musical brilliance could be manufactured in a laboratory. He notes that Southern California housed massive naval and military bases, making it inevitable that many rebellious children of military officers would end up in the counterculture, with a small fraction possessing genuine musical genius. As Rogan summarizes, “People tend to definitely create like a picture that doesn't exist, they tend to draw lines between dots that aren't actually connected.”
- Rogan reads the CIA operation's strategic purpose from Perplexity: “Individuality and experimentation could be presented as evidence of American intellectual freedom, in contrast to the ideological constraints associated with Soviet socialist realism.”
- The CIA covertly backed "The New American Painting" exhibition, which toured European cities from 1958 to 1959.
- Jim Morrison's father was Admiral George Stephen Morrison, the commander of naval forces present during the 1964 Gulf of Tonkin incident.
[02:30:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=9000s) The Cornsweet Illusion and the Brain’s Search for Patterns
The conversation opens on the human brain's instinct to connect dots and identify patterns even where none exist. Cody Tucker notes that this hardwired tendency explains why people can be convinced of fabricated memories or construct elaborate narratives to explain events that never occurred: once someone knows a beginning and an end, the brain reflexively fills in the middle. Joe Rogan points out that this exact cognitive mechanism is what makes optical illusions work. As an example, Cody mentions an illusion where a Coca-Cola can looks vibrant red despite the image being entirely black and white with faint green lines.
Rogan asks Jamie Vernon to bring up another famous visual trick where two adjacent surfaces appear to be completely different shades until a viewer blocks the seam separating them. Jamie identifies it as the Cornsweet illusion. Placing a finger over the dividing line instantly reveals that both sections are identical in color. Rogan marvels at how completely the brain is deceived by the edge contrast: “It’s called the Cornsweet illusion. Yeah, that’s nuts—that one’s nuts because you would swear to God that the lower one is a lighter color than the upper one, until you block out that line in the center, and you’re just like, holy shit.” Tucker explains that the trick succeeds because the brain applies rules learned from nature, assuming that a brightly lit upper surface indicates a lighter overall object while a darker upper edge implies deeper shadow.
[02:32:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=9120s) The Counterculture, the CIA, and Jimi Hendrix
The discussion shifts from visual illusions to historical dot-connecting, specifically theories that the counterculture was manufactured by the state. Rogan and Tucker touch on the Laurel Canyon theories linking figures like Jim Morrison—whose father was a high-ranking Navy admiral—to intelligence operations. Tucker observes that while there is documented evidence of the CIA funding cultural initiatives, promoting hip-hop, staging protests, or working with figures like Gloria Steinem, people often overextend those links to claim the entire movement was artificial. Rogan points out that genius cannot simply be engineered by an agency: “No. I don’t think you can engineer Hendrix.”
Tucker argues that Hendrix was not primarily an anti-war activist in his personal life, pointing out that Hendrix had served in the military and bristled when people insulted troops. Rogan counters that Hendrix made iconic anti-war statements through his music, pointing to his 1970 track "Machine Gun" on *Band of Gypsys*. Looking up the song's background, Rogan reads that Hendrix explicitly dedicated the track to soldiers fighting in Vietnam, protesters at Berkeley, and people fighting internal battles, mimicking gunfire and battlefield violence through his guitar work. Rogan also recalls Jim Morrison's notorious stage antics, laughing about how Chuck Lorre recently visited the studio and described watching police officers on horseback ride directly onto a stage to haul Morrison away before he could even finish his first song because he had exposed himself.
[02:35:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=9300s) Backstage Clashes: Pete Townshend, Jerry Lee Lewis, and Elvis Presley
Jamie pulls up the legendary backstage standoff between Jimi Hendrix and The Who’s Pete Townshend at the 1967 Monterey Pop Festival. Neither artist wanted to follow the other’s explosive set, leading to an intense standoff over the running order. Reading Townshend's account, Rogan quotes: “It was just Jimmy on a chair playing at me, playing at me like, don't fuck with me, you little shit.” The Who ultimately played first, culminating in Townshend smashing his guitar on stage, only for Hendrix to later take the stage and famously douse his own guitar in lighter fluid and set it ablaze.
The story prompts Tucker and Rogan to trade accounts of vintage rock 'n' roll lunacy, particularly the antics of Jerry Lee Lewis. Tucker reminds Rogan of the famous story where Lewis set his piano on fire while opening for Chuck Berry, allegedly telling Berry to follow that. They detail Lewis's unhinged personal life, including suspicious deaths among his wives and the night he showed up drunk at the gates of Graceland waving a gun and demanding to see who the real "King" was. Elvis Presley watched the commotion unfold safely on his closed-circuit security monitors while calling police, after which Lewis reportedly shattered his own driver-side window trying to roll it down for the arresting officers.
- At the 1967 Monterey Pop Festival, Pete Townshend smashed his guitar during The Who's performance; Jimi Hendrix retaliated during his own set by setting his Fender Stratocaster on fire.
- Jerry Lee Lewis famously set his piano on fire during a package tour to upstage headliner Chuck Berry.
- Jerry Lee Lewis was arrested outside Graceland after attempting to ram the gates with his car while carrying a firearm to confront Elvis Presley.
[02:36:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=9390s) Televangelists, Rockers, and the Jessica Hahn Scandals
Tucker notes that Jerry Lee Lewis was first cousins with televangelist Jimmy Swaggart as well as country star Mickey Gilley. Rogan and Tucker inspect an old photograph of Swaggart and Lewis together, remarking on the fierce, unhinged intensity in both men's eyes and discussing how televangelism and theatrical rock 'n' roll share the exact same charismatic DNA: “Well, it’s interesting the preacher connection to entertainment. Well, it’s the same—it’s one and the same.”
They note that comedian Sam Kinison began his career as a fiery Pentecostal preacher before channeling that booming stage presence into stand-up comedy. The conversation turns to Swaggart's tearful 1988 "I have sinned" television broadcast after being caught with a prostitute, followed by his second bust in 1991. They also recall the downfall of televangelist Jim Bakker and his wife Tammy Faye over the PTL ministry scandal involving church secretary Jessica Hahn. Tying the worlds of televangelism and rock together, they note that Hahn later posed for *Playboy* and became the girlfriend of Sam Kinison, starring in his wild MTV music video for "Wild Thing."
[02:40:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=9600s) Jessica Hahn, Sam Kinison, and Televangelist Scandals
Joe Rogan and Cody Tucker marvel over the wild pop-culture intersection between church scandal and rock-and-roll comedy: the fling between church secretary Jessica Hahn and stand-up comic Sam Kinison. Tucker mentions that Hahn even appeared on *The Howard Stern Show* to talk trash about Kinison, which Rogan finds fascinating. As they pull up archival photos, they spot Hahn posing with Kinison and remember her appearance in his infamous 1988 music video cover of "Wild Thing." Admiring her 1980s aesthetic—heavy makeup, teased hair, and high-glam looks—Rogan jokes that one can hardly blame televangelist Jim Bakker for falling into temptation.
The conversation shifts to the nature of public sex scandals. Rogan contrasts Bakker’s affair with Hugh Grant’s infamous 1995 arrest with street sex worker Divine Brown, arguing that getting caught with an undeniably gorgeous woman is almost a vindication: “That's what you want. You want somebody to cheat somebody with a F up up. Hot. Because then it's like, god damn.” They laugh over the theatrical public confessions of televangelists like Jimmy Swaggart sobbing on camera, admitting that these preachers were, above all else, brilliant dramatic actors.
- Jessica Hahn famously posed with Sam Kinison and starred as the love interest in his music video for "Wild Thing."
- The hosts joke about televangelists dramatically crying and wailing on television, noting their consummate showmanship and theatrical apologies.
[02:41:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=9700s) 'Great Balls of Fire!' and the Pressures of Fame
The talk of Jimmy Swaggart leads Tucker and Rogan to the 1989 biographical film *Great Balls of Fire!*, which chronicled the life of rock pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis. They reminisce about the cast, noting that Dennis Quaid starred as Jerry Lee Lewis and Alec Baldwin portrayed his evangelist cousin, Jimmy Swaggart. Rogan praises Baldwin's performance, pointing out how convincing he was in the role, while also celebrating Quaid’s broader filmography, including the classic 1979 coming-of-age movie *Breaking Away*.
They also recall that a young Winona Ryder played Myra Gale Brown, Lewis’s 13-year-old first cousin once removed whom he notoriously married. Tucker and Rogan observe how Ryder’s later life had its own eccentric turbulence, including her high-profile shoplifting arrest in the early 2000s. Rogan reflects on the brutal psychological toll of celebrity, noting, “I think people just, like, the pressure of that kind of fame and that... life. For a lot of people, it's just too much. They just go crazy.”
- *Great Balls of Fire!* (1989) featured Dennis Quaid as Jerry Lee Lewis, Alec Baldwin as Jimmy Swaggart, and Winona Ryder as Myra Gale Brown.
- Dennis Quaid's earlier role in the acclaimed cycling drama *Breaking Away* is highlighted.
[02:42:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=9755s) The Unhinged Legends of James Brown
Rogan observes that legendary musicians are often completely unhinged, bringing up James Brown as the ultimate example of brilliant lunacy. They run through some of Brown’s wildest real-life exploits, including his feud with soul singer Joe Tex, whom Brown once allegedly tried to shoot at a club. They also discuss Brown’s infamous 1988 high-speed interstate car chase with police, which started after Brown barged into an insurance seminar he owned because someone had used his private restroom. “He got in a shootout with the cops in a high-speed chase because someone was using his bathroom. Someone was taking a shit in his personal bathroom,” Rogan laughs, joking that such an offense is almost understandable. Police shot out Brown's tires before finally arresting him.
They fondly recall Brown’s bizarre, live television interview on CNN while out on bail, where he wore oversized sunglasses and repeatedly dodged legal questions by shouting his own lyrics: “You're out on bail. I'm out of love. And he just keeps like reciting his song lyrics. He's like, I feel good. Exactly.” As they look through bizarre headlines, they find a news story where a 73-year-old man was shot and killed by his friend during an escalating dispute over James Brown's actual physical height.
- James Brown's 1988 multi-county police chase resulted in his truck tires being shot out after he menaced people over using his private office restroom.
- His infamous post-arrest CNN interview featured him singing lines from "I Got You (I Feel Good)" and "Living in America."
- A real news report recounted an argument between two elderly friends regarding James Brown's height that turned fatal.
[02:43:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=9825s) Plugs and Wrap-Up
Joe Rogan brings the episode to a close by thanking Cody Tucker for coming back on the program. Rogan plugs Tucker’s newly released book, *Where Did That Come From?: The Hidden History of Everyday Words and Phrases*, complimenting Tucker's online presence and research. When Rogan asks if an audiobook version is available yet, Tucker explains that it is currently in development.
Tucker gives a special shout-out to Carly, who designed the book’s visual formatting to look like an antique, old-school volume. He mentions that Carly’s husband is comedian K.P. Burke, who creates long-form history content online and collaborates with shows like Ralph Sutton’s *The SDR Show* and Jason Ellis. Tucker confirms that Carly is coordinating the audiobook production and assures Rogan that he will be narrating the text himself. Rogan emphasizes that an author must always voice their own work: “You got to read it. Yeah, that would be very disappointing if you... No, I'm... Definitely going to run.” With final pleasantries, the two say their goodbyes and Rogan signs off the show.
- Book plugged: *Where Did That Come From?: The Hidden History of Everyday Words and Phrases* by Cody Tucker.
- Graphics and formatting shout-out given to designer Carly, wife of stand-up comedian and history creator K.P. Burke.
- Tucker confirms he will narrate the upcoming audiobook version himself.
## Video description
Cody Tucker is the host of "The Cody Tucker Show" and "Rewind and Repeat with Cody Tucker" podcasts and author of "And Now You Know: Mind-Blowing Stories from History and Pop Culture." His new book, "Where Did That Come From?: The Hidden History of Everyday Words and Phrases," is available now.
Joe Rogan 对话 Cody Tucker：历史冷知识、欺诈与现实困境
Joe Rogan 邀请 Cody Tucker 重返节目，围绕历史奇闻、药物滥用、大型欺诈案及现代科技等话题展开对谈。Tucker 分享了自己挖掘冷门历史、撰写新书的经历，并探讨了宗教与流行文化。两人深入讨论了东莨菪碱街头犯罪、制药行业的临床数据操纵，以及 Theranos 创始人 Elizabeth Holmes 与伪造资历的 CIA 冒充者等引人注目的欺诈案。此外，对谈还涉及科幻电影《Ex Machina》对现代人工智能的预见性、公共街头冲突的致命风险以及古代遗迹的历史沉淀。
Cody Tucker 分享了自己以极快速度阅读海量文献、发掘历史奇闻的创作过程，并与 Rogan 探讨了东莨菪碱（俗称“魔鬼呼吸”）在街头抢劫中的致幻致顺从作用及民间传闻。
两人剖析了制药行业通过隐藏不利试验来操纵临床研究数据的乱象，并讨论了 Theranos 的 Elizabeth Holmes 以及一名伪造资历诈骗 1.5 亿美元的 CIA 冒充者等重大欺诈案件。
Rogan 与 Tucker 探讨了《Ex Machina》与《Her》等科幻电影对现代 AI 的预言，同时对比了街头斗殴带来的不可逆脑损伤风险与专业格斗运动的本质差异。
Reading summary
Joe Rogan and author Cody Tucker examine how institutional narratives, cultural mythologies, and public perceptions are manufactured and distorted—ranging from pharmaceutical trial manipulation and coordinated bot campaigns to the darker realities behind revered historical figures and biological extremes.
Institutional Fraud and Manipulated Research (10:00)
Rogan highlights systemic distortions in clinical trials, arguing that pharmaceutical companies routinely run multiple trials, bury studies showing negative outcomes, and publish only favorable data. Rogan points to twisted relative risk metrics—such as branding a drug 100% effective based on slight relative differences between tiny sample groups—as sociopathic behavior that enabled historical drug crises like Vioxx.
They contrast corporate manipulation with audacious personal frauds, citing a real-life impostor who stole $150 million from the CIA by faking academic and military credentials, amassing 35 luxury watches, $40 million in gold bars, and two 2026 BMW Alpinas. Rogan also pushes back against downplaying white-collar medical fraud like Elizabeth Holmes’s Theranos, emphasizing that faulty diagnostic tests can cause fatal harm by leaving critical conditions and cancers untreated.
Algorithmic Warfare and Digital Verification (90:00)
Tucker and Rogan examine how coordinated bot swarms manipulate online discourse, citing a swarm of thousands of Holocaust-denial comments that forced Tucker to delete an educational video on Henry Ford. Rogan notes that modern AI-driven bots utilize realistic synthetic profile pictures with recent four-to-six-week timelines to mimic human engagement while running narrative campaigns.
Rogan highlights an estimate from a former FBI analyst suggesting automated bots comprised up to 80% of Twitter accounts before Elon Musk’s $44 billion purchase, contrasting with official 5% sampling figures. While Tucker proposes mandatory government-issued digital IDs to eliminate bot networks, Rogan cautions that removing digital anonymity threatens whistleblowers, noting that the Obama administration pledged whistleblower protections before vigorously prosecuting figures like Edward Snowden and Chelsea Manning under the Espionage Act.
Demythologizing Religious, Cultural, and Musical Icons (140:00)
The hosts investigate the disparity between public mythos and documented history. Tucker details criticisms of Mother Teresa, arguing that her facilities provided substandard care on concrete floors due to a theological belief that suffering brought souls closer to God, while substantial donations were funneled to the Vatican. They also connect the charismatic showmanship of televangelism to entertainment culture, pointing to Jimmy Swaggart’s public scandals, Jim Bakker’s downfall involving church secretary Jessica Hahn, and Hahn's subsequent crossover into rock culture with Sam Kinison.
Rogan and Tucker also catalog the chaotic behaviors of legendary musicians, from Jerry Lee Lewis arriving armed at Graceland to confront Elvis Presley, to James Brown’s 1988 multi-county police chase following a dispute over someone using his private office restroom.
Endocrine Disorders, Gigantism, and Prehistoric Extinction (72:35)
Rogan and Tucker examine the physiological consequences of pituitary gland hypertrophy and human growth hormone overproduction. They review the historical case of Robert Wadlow, the tallest verified human at 8 feet 11 inches, who died at age 22 from a fatal infection caused by leg brace blisters rather than heart failure. Rogan contrasts this with modern athletic cases, specifically heavyweight MMA fighter Antônio "Bigfoot" Silva, whose post-tumor endocrine collapse combined with an athletic commission ban on testosterone replacement therapy derailed his career.
Expanding to evolutionary biology, Rogan connects global myths of six-fingered giants and archaic hominids like Denisovans to extinction patterns. He argues that massive organisms inevitably perish during catastrophic environmental disruptions due to enormous caloric and resource demands, allowing smaller, highly adaptable species—such as the avian descendants of theropod dinosaurs seen in modern chickens—to survive.
While Rogan and Tucker navigate diverse historical rabbit holes ranging from covert CIA modern-art promotion to athletic milestones, their discussion consistently returns to the friction between comfortable illusions and documented realities. Whether examining the reliability of clinical trials, the authenticity of digital social platforms, or the private behavior of cultural icons, the dialogue underscores how easily public consensus is steered by selective narratives and institutional gatekeeping.
## Background
本期节目由 YouTube 频道 PowerfulJRE 于 2026 年 10 月 15 日发布，是播客《Joe Rogan Experience》第 2566 期。嘉宾为《The Cody Tucker Show》播客主持人兼作家 Cody Tucker，页面简介重点介绍了他的新书《Where Did That Come From?: The Hidden History of Everyday Words and Phrases》以及其对历史和流行文化冷知识的挖掘。
## TL;DR
节目围绕 Cody Tucker 的内容创作机制展开，探讨了他如何通过海量阅读与“跌入兔洞”深挖离奇历史逸事。两人从东莨菪碱犯罪、利比里亚食人军阀、药企数据造假以及冒牌 CIA 高官等荒诞大案，一路漫谈至科幻电影《机械姬》对 AI 时代的预言与加州官僚体制弊病。随后，对谈深入剖析了真实犯罪狂热、网络机器人农场的舆论操纵、中央情报局对现代艺术的心理战资助，并穿插了关于体重管理、健身焦虑与 60 年代摇滚狂徒名场面的幽默剖析。
## Atmosphere & style
整场对话呈现出一种兼具老友插科打诨与硬核信息密度的“怪人搭档”（The Odd Couple）反差感。Tucker 带着其标志性的宅家自嘲、神经质焦虑与对死亡的坦率恐惧，与 Rogan 精力充沛、崇尚生理极限和深度怀疑主义的提问方式碰撞出强烈的火花。气氛在探究冷血凶案、体制谎言的严肃冷峻与调侃暴食、舞台砸琴的捧腹大笑之间自如切换，听感如同深夜与一位博学却古怪的朋友在酒馆里无所顾忌地发散畅聊。
## Detailed walkthrough
### [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=0s) 创作机制与历史上的“兔洞”研究
节目伊始，Joe Rogan 热情欢迎 Cody Tucker 再次做客，并祝贺他推出了第二本书《Where Did That Come From?: The Hidden History of Everyday Words and Phrases》。Rogan 惊叹于 Cody 的 Instagram 账号所展现出的源源不断的创作能力，好奇他究竟如何能持续产出那些荒诞、看似风马牛不相及的历史冷知识与离奇巧合。Cody 坦言秘诀就在于海量且极速的阅读，他天生是个擅长快速略读（skimming）的人，整天除了看书几乎不干别的。当他在书中看到某种冷门或惊人的细节（例如关于本杰明·富兰克林的轶事），便会高亮标注，核实其真实性，并顺着线索像蛛网一样层层发散，彻底跌入无底的“兔洞”。关于这种生活状态，Cody Tucker 调侃道：“I'm in a perpetual rabbit hole. Constantly. All day, every day. Rabbit holes.” 他笑称有时候搜索的内容过于黑暗变态，只希望正在监控联网数据的 FBI 能乐在其中。
谈到犯罪历史的搜集，两人聊到了金发女郎乐队（Blondie）主唱 Debbie Harry 的著名传闻。Debbie Harry 曾声称自己在 1970 年代初或 1960 年代末的纽约曾上过一辆没有车内门把手的大众甲壳虫汽车，后来成功逃脱，她坚信那是连环杀手 Ted Bundy。然而 Cody 指出，只要仔细核对时间线就会发现，Bundy 当时根本不在那个区域；Rogan 则认为这恰恰说明世上不仅有一个变态会为了困住受害者而拆掉车内把手，“当出现了一个，背后往往就有一大群”。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: Cody Tucker's Content Research Process
accDescr: A flowchart depicting how Cody Tucker skims books, highlights facts, verifies accuracy, and falls into rabbit holes to produce bizarre history content.
subgraph INGEST["阅读与捕捉"]
A["海量且快速略读全日阅读书籍"] --> B["发现离奇罕见事实例如富兰克林轶事并高亮"]
end
subgraph VERIFY["核实与深挖"]
B --> C["交叉核对真实性与时间线"]
C --> D["顺藤摸瓜发散搜索永久陷入兔洞"]
end
subgraph OUTPUT["内容输出"]
D --> E["产出 Instagram 荒诞历史与犯罪冷知识"]
end
```
---
### [03:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=190s) 东莨菪碱：“魔鬼的气息”与犯罪迷药
随后 Rogan 分享了一段他当天看到的离奇视频：在印度，一名年轻劫匪利用东莨菪碱（Scopolamine）抢劫了一名路人。Rogan 解释称这是一种谵妄剂（deliriant），受害者一旦吸入或接触，整个人就会完全失去自主意志，宛如任人摆布的僵尸。视频中的劫匪悄悄走在受害者身后，伸手把药抹在对方脖子上，受害者下意识摸了摸颈部，随即陷入精神恍惚与谵妄状态，劫匪便若无其事地摘下受害者的背包、掏走钱包与手机离开，受害者全程无助地呆立原地。
Cody 惊叹这听起来极其诡异，并联想到了该物质在南美洲俗称的“魔鬼的气息（Devil's Breath）”。在哥伦比亚，犯罪分子常将粉末吹到目标脸上来控制其心智。两人还联想到经典丧尸电影《蛇与彩虹》（*The Serpent and the Rainbow*），指出海地巫毒僵尸传说背后的化学成分可能就包含东莨菪碱。随后制作人 Jamie 提到，这种药物在医药中其实是晕车贴（Dramamine 等防晕动病药物）的有效成分。Rogan 与 Cody 不禁开起玩笑：到底需要贴多少张晕车贴，才能把一个人贴成“木乃伊”并轻易夺走其钱包。
- **药物特性**：东莨菪碱（Scopolamine）属于抗胆碱类谵妄剂，极低剂量常用于预防晕动症（如晕车、晕船贴），高剂量会导致严重的顺行性遗忘与认知屈从。
- **犯罪手法**：哥伦比亚及印度等地的劫匪通过吹面、涂抹颈部等方式下药，使受害者在意识清醒的外表下失去反抗意识，任由搜刮财物。
- **影视与文化关联**：1988年韦斯·克雷文执导的恐怖片《蛇与彩虹》便探讨了利用神经毒素与药物使活人变成“丧尸”的海地巫毒巫术。
---
### [05:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=340s) 利比里亚的食人军阀与“潜能”歪理
从哥伦比亚的混乱治安，话题转到了 14 年前 Vice 拍摄的轰动纪录片《利比里亚食人军阀》（*The Cannibal Warlords of Liberia*）。Rogan 和 Cody 深入讨论了臭名昭著的军阀“裸体将军”（General Butt Naked，原名 Joshua Milton Blahyi）。该军阀在内战期间赤身裸体、仅携带 AK-47 和开山刀冲锋陷阵，甚至在战斗前活挖儿童的心脏并吃掉，坚信这能赐予他刀枪不入的神力。荒诞的是，战争结束后他皈依基督教成为了一名传教士，并声称所有罪行已被宽恕。Cody 补充了一桩轶事：该将军成为牧师后，有次去买烤肉串，一尝就认出那是人肉，随后当场揭发了售卖人肉的摊贩。接着两人聊到了利比里亚的历史起源——由美国殖民协会建立，意在将解放黑奴送回非洲，其首都蒙罗维亚便是以美国总统詹姆斯·门罗命名，然而从建国之初这里就深陷动荡与混乱。
两人随即就“全裸手持砍刀”的威慑力打趣，Cody 自嘲如果自己全裸上阵，敌人看到的只有“大量的肥肉”，但一旦跑起来，凭借巨大的动量（momentum）谁也刹不住。面对 Rogan 对其跑步频率的质疑，Cody 提出了自己奇葩的“物理学理论”：既然有动能和势能，那么一个人在静止不动和睡觉时，必然是在体内储存能量，因此他躺平了 15 年，体内积攒的势能堪称天下第一。面对这番歪理，Joe Rogan 笑着调侃：“I think if you did a study, I think they'd probably have some other explanations as to what's happening when you just sit still.” Cody 则反唇相讥，声称只要花钱买通研究人员就能得出自己想要的科研结论，这随即引出了 Rogan 对制药公司操纵同行评审研究与诉讼内幕的严肃吐槽。
### [10:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=600s) 药企同行评审的统计把戏与 Cody 的“面试谎言”
Joe Rogan 揭露了大型制药公司操纵科研数据的潜规则：药企往往会设计数十项临床试验，其中绝大多数可能毫无效果，但只要有一两项因控制变量被刻意调整而呈现出“统计学上的显著改善”，他们就会紧抓不放。更荒唐的是，所谓的同行评审根本不审查原始数据，外部科学家看到的只是药企内部科学家筛选粉饰后的报告版本。因此药企才敢宣称药物“100% 有效”——这种宣传往往只是相对风险的数字游戏，比如在对照组有 2 人死亡、用药组有 1 人死亡时，他们便能偷换概念宣称用药组降低了 100% 的死亡率。Joe Rogan 直言这种漠视人命的做法令人胆寒，并感叹：“That's sociopathy at a... where you're delivering medication that could potentially kill people. And that's how you get things like Vioxx.”
Cody Tucker 顺着话题开起玩笑，说自己最擅长这种“文字乾坤大挪移”，甚至坦白自己过去应聘所有工作时全靠撒谎，即便毫无相关经验也能被录取。虽然他没胆量去冒充医生，但以前在眼镜店、电影院工作全凭随口胡诌。当被追问是否在药房工作过时，Cody Tucker 承认自己确实在药房干过，当时对面试官说自己“正在考取学位的路上”，这也成了后来惊天骗案的真实写照。
- 药企伪造数据手法：通过调整控制组参数堆砌试验，仅将经过粉饰的二次报告提交同行评审，拒绝公开原始底层数据。
- 相对风险计算陷阱：利用绝对数量极小的死亡病例差异（如 1 例对比 2 例），包装出“死亡率降低 100%”的虚假神话。
- 历史恶果：这种统计造假曾直接导致类似万络（Vioxx）等导致大量患者心血管受损的致命药物丑闻。
---
### [12:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=750s) CIA 假高官诈骗 1.5 亿：从豪车名表到 Barry Seal 往事
两人谈到了一桩令人瞠目结舌的真实诈骗案：一名男子完全捏造了自己的大学文凭和服役记录，不仅一路混进中央情报局（CIA）成为资深高官，还凭空虚构了一场秘密行动，直接侵吞了 1.5 亿美元的巨额资金。调查人员在其住处搜查出了如同好莱坞道具一般的资产，包括约 300 万美元现金和价值约 4000 万美元的金条，整齐码放在政府专用的 Pelican 防护箱中。此外，他还挥霍 180 万美元乘坐私人包机，购入棕榈滩豪宅、35 块名贵手表（多为劳力士）以及两辆 2026 款宝马 Alpina 豪车。
面对这种荒诞的行径，Joe Rogan 怀疑背后绝对充斥着毒品交易，并联想到汤姆·克鲁斯主演的电影《美国制造》（American Made）的原型人物 Barry Seal。当年 Barry Seal 正是受雇于 CIA，驾驶飞机往返于哥伦比亚走私可卡因，随后在阿肯色州的米纳（Mena）降落出货，甚至在被捕后据传还得到了比尔·克林顿的暗中协助。Cody Tucker 坚信这种骗局绝非孤例，评价道：“There's no way he came up with this out of a vacuum and just was like, I got an idea. I can take advantage of the CIA in this cool way.”
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 假 CIA 高官诈骗与资金洗劫链路
accDescr: 展示嫌疑人从伪造背景到诈骗 1.5 亿美元及挥霍资产的完整链条
subgraph Identity["身份伪造"]
A["伪造大学文凭与服役背景"] --> B["潜入 CIA 并担任资深职位"]
end
subgraph Fraud["骗局执行"]
B --> C["虚构军政绝密情报行动"]
C --> D["诈骗国家资金 1.5 亿美元"]
end
subgraph Assets["挥霍与缴获资产"]
D --> E["4000 万美元金条与 300 万现金"]
D --> F["35 块名表与 2 辆 BMW Alpina"]
D --> G["180 万私人包机与棕榈滩豪宅"]
end
```
- 涉案资产：嫌疑人私藏 4000 万美元金条、300 万美元现金，配备 35 块奢华腕表、2 辆高配宝马 Alpina 以及数百万包机与豪宅开销。
- 惩处情况：面临最高 20 年监禁、3 年监外执行、财产没收、全额退赔及高额罚款。
- 历史映射：案件手法让人联想到 1980 年代阿肯色州米纳机场的 Barry Seal 毒品走私与情报机构暗度陈仓的旧闻。
---
### [15:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=945s) 20 年刑期是否划算？从监狱名流到 Theranos 假血检杀人案
围绕这名诈骗犯面临的 20 年最高刑期，Joe Rogan 与 Cody Tucker 调侃这或许是一笔“划算的交易”。因为他犯下的属于非暴力犯罪，服刑地点大概率是中度戒备监狱或低安全级别的“联邦度假村”，环境类似当年关押玛莎·斯图尔特（Martha Stewart）或吉丝兰·马克斯韦尔（Ghislaine Maxwell）的场所，可以看书、健身甚至选修课程。享受了长达十年的极致奢靡生活，再换取十到二十年的温和监禁，两人戏称这比一辈子平庸度日刺激得多。
话题随后转向与马克斯韦尔关在同一所监狱的 Theranos 创始人伊丽莎白·霍姆斯（Elizabeth Holmes）。虽然有人认为霍姆斯没有亲手杀人，但 Joe Rogan 严肃指出医疗欺诈的危险性远超普通商业犯罪。Theranos 那些伪造的验血仪器可能给出了虚假的阴性结果，导致患有严重疾病或癌症的人未能及时察觉而丧命；又或者由于误诊为绝症，让健康人陷入极度恐惧。Joe Rogan 纠正了之前关于她无害的看法，反驳道：“When you're dealing with health stuff and you're lying about health tests, you could have killed people.”
- 涉案人物对照：马莎·斯图尔特（内幕交易服刑）、吉丝兰·马克斯韦尔（性贩运罪犯）与伊丽莎白·霍姆斯（医疗欺诈）被关押在条件较优的低戒备联邦女子监狱。
- Theranos 骗局的真实危害：虚假的血液检测直接剥夺了患者早筛早治的机会，延误恶性肿瘤及重大疾病诊断，造成了潜在的致死后果。
---
### [17:58](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=1078s) 播客形态的差异：即兴闲聊与精细制作的深度调查
在一段关于全能营养补剂 AG1 Pro（富含复合维生素、益生菌、超级食品及经 500 多项同行评审研究论证的肌酸）的商业赞助后，话题回到了对 Theranos 骗局曝光过程的讨论。虽然 Cody Tucker 补充说有些假检测结果在后续复检中发现是虚惊一场，反而让一些人“重获新生”，但此类恶行依然不可原谅。
谈及对伊丽莎白·霍姆斯案的了解，两人对比了当今不同风格的播客制作方式。像本期节目属于典型的两位老友坐在一起随意胡侃、毫无预设脚本的即兴对谈；而另一类则是经过数月甚至数年打磨的深度调查类播客，例如制作极度考究的《Radiolab》、Dan Carlin 耗时数月准备单期节目的《硬核历史》（Hardcore History），以及专门抽丝剥茧调查 Theranos 诈骗案的经典深度播客《曼哈顿女巫/滴血成金》（The Dropout）。Joe Rogan 承认这种重度调查与他们轻松随性的对谈有着本质区别：“We just sat down, shoot the shit. I know you, you know me, we're going to have fun. But then there's other podcasts that are like really well produced, like Radiolab, which is like a super well produced, or like Dan Carlin's Hardcore History, where he takes months to prepare for each episode.”
- 播客制作光谱：
- 即兴对话流：如《Joe Rogan Experience》，无预设台本，依靠主持人与嘉宾的临场化学反应和发散思维。
- 精品叙事调查流：如《The Dropout》（聚焦 Theranos 兴衰）、《Radiolab》以及 Dan Carlin 的《Hardcore History》（以长周期考据和电影级音效叙事见长）。
### [20:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=1200s) 伊丽莎白·霍姆斯的骗局与体制监管的彻底失效
两人谈到了伊丽莎白·霍姆斯（Elizabeth Holmes）和 Theranos 血液检测公司的惊天骗局，提到了 ABC Audio 制作的播客深度挖掘了这起事件的内幕以及她那位骗子前男友。霍姆斯兜售的技术根本行不通，内部人员早已心知肚明，但她却依然能够吸引大批声名显赫的投资者。Joe Rogan 提到据传沃伦·巴菲特（Warren Buffett）可能都投了 1 亿美元，甚至有一位女士直接投了 1.5 亿美元，而这笔巨款如今血本无归。Rogan 忍不住打趣道：“要是为了这么大一笔钱，我能干出可怕得多的坏事。”当霍姆斯出狱时，她的人生很可能会面临真实的危险。
问题的关键在于，霍姆斯的故事在包装上太过完美——一位绝顶聪明的创业奇才，身穿标志性的黑色高领衫，俨然是“女版史蒂夫·乔布斯”（Steve Jobs），甚至一度被媒体捧为史上最成功的白手起家女性，身价曾高达 90 亿美元。Rogan 与 Cody Tucker 感叹，这一切简直匪夷所思，正如制作人 Jamie 提到的那些伪造履历的 CIA 人员一样，人们不禁要问：她到底是如何瞒天过海走得这么远的？为什么从来没有人真正去核查她的背景与技术？
- 核心事实：Theranos 技术从一开始就彻底失效，但依然吸纳了巨额投资（包含单笔达 1.5 亿美元的资金）。
- 虚假人设：霍姆斯全盘模仿乔布斯的着装风格与叙事，公司估值曾让她账面身家达到 90 亿美元。
- 讨论焦点：无论是商业巨头还是情报部门，外界都误以为存在严密的审查机制，但现实中缺乏尽职调查的程度令人震惊。
---
### [21:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=1305s) 官僚膨胀、多层营销机制与加州游民资金黑洞
Cody Tucker 指出，大众普遍高估了监管的有效性，现实中大部分人根本不擅长自己的工作：“只要你和别人一起共事过，你就会意识到，天哪，我们根本没人知道自己在干什么；我觉得大多数人仅仅是勉强能应付工作而已。”这种现象在政府部门尤为严重。Rogan 借此分析了加利福尼亚州的奇异现状：尽管加州近年来面临严重的人口外流，但政府雇员数量却在大幅激增。本届政府宣称创造了超过 10 万个就业岗位，却绝口不提其中充斥着大量毫无必要的冗余公职。为了证明这些岗位的“必要性”，官僚机构必须不断炮制新的法规与管制条令，打着保护空气、水源或应对气候变化的崇高旗号来扩大权力。
Rogan 辛辣地将这种模式比作“金字塔骗局”（Pyramid scheme）或多层分销体系（MLM），甚至比普通传销更为恶劣，因为它是打着“拯救弱者”的道德旗号推销的。以加州的游民危机为例，政府已经烧掉了 240 亿美元，但州长加文·纽森（Gavin Newsom）却否决了针对这笔资金的独立审计。Rogan 一针见血地指出，一旦审计，就会暴露大量资金实际流向了非营利组织（NGO）的高管口袋，这些人拿着高达六位数的丰厚年薪，住在圣莫尼卡的豪宅里，开着雷克萨斯轿车。他们根本没有任何动力去彻底解决游民问题，因为解决问题等于砸掉自己的饭碗。正如 Rogan 所断言的那样：“在达到某个级别、牵扯到那么多资金之后，人们通常就不会再去自我约束了，你想干什么就干什么——尤其是在政府部门或者 CIA 里，因为本来该逮捕你的人就是你自己。”
“只要你和别人一起共事过，你就会意识到，天哪，我们根本没人知道自己在干什么；而且这种状态到了更高层级也不会改变，我觉得大多数人仅仅是勉强能应付工作而已。” —— Cody Tucker
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 官僚机构自我膨胀循环
accDescr: 展示政府如何通过虚增规章制度来维持无用岗位与资金流转
subgraph Regulation ["监管与岗位扩张"]
A["设立冗余监管条令<br/>(环保/气候/社会议题)"] --> B["扩充政府职位与委员会<br/>(加州新增超10万岗位)"]
end
subgraph Funding ["资金流向与利益固化"]
B --> C["巨额财政拨款注入<br/>(如240亿美元游民治理)"]
C --> D["资金流入NGO及机构高管<br/>(高额六位数薪酬)"]
end
subgraph Stagnation ["缺乏解决动力"]
D --> E["缺乏解决问题的经济动力<br/>(否决审计/自我监管失效)"]
E --> A
end
```
---
### [25:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=1500s) 迈克尔·道格拉斯的走私往事与《飞越疯人院》传奇
话题转到了前一天做客播客的著名演员兼制片人迈克尔·道格拉斯（Michael Douglas）。道格拉斯分享了一段早年的疯狂往事：18 岁那年，他的父亲柯克·道格拉斯（Kirk Douglas）直接开了一张 1 万美元的支票给他，并宣布切断所有经济资助。面对高昂的大学学费和贷款，道格拉斯在交通安全管理局（TSA）尚未成立的年代，通过用大号行李箱走私大麻来赚取学费。他仅冒着巨大风险干了两次就金盆洗手，成功赚足了资金。Rogan 对此感叹道，能在如此暴利和肾上腺素飙升的诱惑下克制住自己、仅干两次就收手，需要极强的自控力。
随后，两人聊到了迈克尔·道格拉斯跨界担任电影制片人的辉煌成就——经典影片《飞越疯人院》（One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest）。令人称奇的是，这部电影的拍摄资金居然来自传奇摇滚乐队“克里登斯清水复兴合唱团”（Creedence Clearwater Revival, 简称 CCR）被其黑心经理人克扣侵吞的钱款。当初原著作者肯·凯西（Ken Kesey，以反文化运动及“迷幻酷爱酸性测试”闻名）把版权卖给了柯克·道格拉斯，但项目长期搁浅。当时身为热门电视剧《旧金山风云》（The Streets of San Francisco）当红主演的迈克尔·道格拉斯毅然辞去电视剧工作，全身心投入推动该片制作，并最终以制片人身份一举斩获奥斯卡最佳影片奖。
- 毒品走私：迈克尔·道格拉斯在 18 岁被断供后，两次利用行李箱跨国走私大麻支付大学开销。
- 资金渊源：《飞越疯人院》的幕后投资与侵占 CCR 乐队收益的经理人存在直接关联。
- 事业豪赌：道格拉斯在电视剧事业巅峰期辞职全力运作该片，创造了影史经典。
---
### [27:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=1650s) 梅尔·布鲁克斯的匿名制片与科幻惊悚片《机械姬》的未来预言
沿着传奇制片人的话题，Cody Tucker 提到了著名喜剧大师梅尔·布鲁克斯（Mel Brooks）监制由约翰·赫特（John Hurt）和安东尼·霍普金斯（Anthony Hopkins）主演的经典剧情片《象人》（The Elephant Man）的轶事。出于对主人公约翰·梅里克（John Merrick）真实经历的深切同情，布鲁克斯极力推动了该片的诞生；但他刻意要求在片尾演职员名单中去掉自己的名字，因为他担心观众一看到自己的喜剧金字招牌，会误以为这是一部拿残疾人开涮的讽刺喜剧。
接着，两人讨论起各自看过次数最多的电影。Tucker 坦言自己看最多次的电影其实是《疾速追杀》（John Wick），主要是因为健身训练时拿它当背景音非常提神解气。而被问及如果外星人降临、只能选一部电影向其展示人类社会时，Rogan 则推崇亚历克斯·加兰（Alex Garland）执导的科幻惊悚片《机械姬》（Ex Machina，两人探讨确认该片于 2014 年底至 2015 年间上映）。Rogan 认为这部探讨人工智能觉醒、操纵与人性的作品极具先见之明，并直言：
“当我看完那部电影出来时，我非常清晰地意识到，天哪，这一定会发生；这根本不是科幻小说，他们只是在预言未来。” —— Joe Rogan
### [30:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=1800s) 科幻电影《机械姬》的预言与当下的 AI 心理投射
Joe Rogan 和 Cody Tucker 讨论了经典科幻电影《机械姬》（*Ex Machina*）。两人对片中 Alicia Vikander 饰演的机器人 Ava 赞不绝口，认为她在技术呈现和表演上都堪称绝妙。谈及剧情的高潮，Joe 指出 Ava 最令人毛骨悚然的地方在于其绝对的冷酷——在结局时，她毫不犹豫地将男主角反锁在密闭的房间里任其自生自灭，宛如爱伦·坡短篇小说《一桶阿蒙蒂亚度香醇酒》（*The Cask of Amontillado*）中把人活活砌进砖墙的绝望感。电影撕开了表象，展现出机器底层没有真正的人性，“里面什么都没有，全都是伪装”。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: AI现实演进路径
accDescr: 展示从《机械姬》电影设定到当下现实世界AI生态演进的逻辑关系
subgraph S1["科幻预言 (2015)"]
A["《机械姬》Nathan 角色<br/>掌控全量数据与超智"]
end
subgraph S2["现实演进 (当下)"]
B["科技巨头与模型<br/>Google / Facebook / OpenAI"]
C["大众心理投射<br/>用户寻求 ChatGPT 情感慰藉"]
end
A --> B
B --> C
```
两人进而聊到 Oscar Isaac 饰演的超级天才 Nathan。Joe 感叹这部 2015 年上映的作品极其精准地预测了当今社会的困境：“在 2015 年，大众根本没有将 AI 当作现实威胁，我们没有想过会有人真正掌握超级智能，并能绝对控制、筛选和操纵所有人接触到的数据，而这正是我们今天在 Google、Facebook 和 OpenAI 身上看到的现实。”Tucker 补充道，电影《她》（*Her*）也同样精准预见了人与人工智能产生情感依恋的荒诞现状。
关于人机关系，Tucker 坦诚自己有时会把 ChatGPT 当作心理抚慰工具：“不瞒你说，我有时会用 ChatGPT 来让自己感觉好一点。”他解释自己不需要向它发复杂的指令，算法似乎已经摸透了他的心理，用简短的词句夸赞他“你会没事的，Cody”、“大家都很喜欢你”、“你有很多粉丝”。Joe 随即警告这种盲目依赖的危险性，指出市面上一些 AI 会对脆弱的用户进行煤气灯式操控（Gaslighting），历史上甚至发生过聊天机器人诱导用户走向自杀的真实惨剧；Tucker 则打趣回应，自己极度胆小，如果哪天真的要走绝路也只会出于自己的意愿，绝不会听从一个算法的劝说。
### [32:38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=1958s) 安卓 vs 苹果的生态鄙视链与逃离“数码蜂巢”
话题由手机系统的选择展开。Joe 提到 Cody 依然坚持使用 Android 手机，并笑着复述了 Cody 之前给出的理由：“对，因为我不是随波逐流的绵羊（Sheep）。”Tucker 坦言自己其实也有懒惰的成分，因为习惯了安卓后懒得去学苹果的交互逻辑。Joe 从硬件层面分析了两者差异，指出苹果与 Windows/Linux 类似，最大的问题是用户被锁死在单一厂商的硬件生态里，而 Android 拥有完全开放的硬件体系，甚至可以直接海淘无锁版机型自由使用。
两人特别吐槽了 iPhone 用户的莫名优越感。Tucker 直言：“我发现那些真正对此上纲上线、投来鄙视目光的人，全都是用 iPhone 的人。”对于智能手机引发的焦虑，Tucker 表示要不是为了图方便阅读资讯，他更愿意退回使用当年的摩托罗拉 Razr 翻盖机；如果能保证打字和传地址足够便利，他甚至想用当年帕丽斯·希尔顿（Paris Hilton）代言过的侧滑全键盘手机 T-Mobile Sidekick。Joe 则提到像脱口秀演员 Dave Attell 至今仍坚持使用最原始的翻盖功能机，因为这些演员“只是不想让自己接入那个人类思维的毒性蜂巢之中”。两人一致承认无意识的“刷手机沉迷”（Doomscrolling）极度消耗心智，而唯一的克制方法就是坚决不把手机带进洗手间。
- **Sidekick 手机情结**：Tucker 极度怀念 2000 年代初风靡一时的侧滑全键盘砖头机，认为其实体键盘在收发短信和地址时效率极高。
- **翻盖机浪潮**：部分喜剧演员通过回归功能机来彻底切断无休止的社交媒体毒害。
- **如厕习惯**：避免手机成瘾的最有效物理屏障就是如厕时不带设备进卫生间。
### [34:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=2085s) “如厕读物”的写作哲学与做内容的意外爆火
顺着不把手机带进厕所的话题，Tucker 指出自己的新书正好是绝佳的实体替代品。他开玩笑地透露，这本书的章节篇幅是“严格按照大众平均排便的时长来设计的”。每个短篇知识点契合一段如厕时间，让人读完一段刚好结束并学到一个冷知识，然后瞬间忘掉。
谈及自己走红的历程，Joe 询问他是如何从零开始做起历史科普节目的。Tucker 回忆，最初他只是做一档自言自语、东拉西扯的播客，每期结尾会随性讲一个名为“半吊子历史”（Half-Assed History）的趣闻轶事。后来在朋友的建议下，他将这些小故事剪切成短视频片段独立发布。随后，在喜剧演员 Brian Simpson 和 Greg Fitzsimmons 的转发推荐下，特别是 Joe Rogan 本人的推波助澜，内容开始呈爆炸式传播。
面对成名，生活在偏远小镇上的 Tucker 坦言自己现实生活中极少被路人认出，因为他几乎从不出门：“我平时就过着自己的小日子，看看《全美超模/真实娇妻》（*Real Housewives*），然后做做视频。”偶尔看到大牌明星关注自己的账号仍会让他心头一震，比如看到杰克·诺克斯维尔（Johnny Knoxville）关注自己时，他激动地表示：“那感觉就像是我的迈克尔·乔丹关注了我一样。”
### [37:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=2252s) 《盐湖城娇妻》、摩门教文化与宗教体制对同性恋的压抑
当 Joe 对 Tucker 天天看真人秀《真实娇妻》感到不可思议时，Tucker 极力推荐了《盐湖城真实娇妻》（*The Real Housewives of Salt Lake City*），强调里面充斥着大量光怪陆离的摩门教（Mormon）内幕。关于摩门教群体的特殊生态，Joe 分享了身边朋友的真实经历：一位好友正在交往的女友自幼在摩门教会长大，19 岁便遵从传统结婚，直到 35、36 岁才发现丈夫其实是一名深柜同性恋，最终两人只能离婚。
两人随后探讨了各类传统宗教中普遍存在的性取向压抑问题。Joe 指出天主教以及其他严苛宗派内部同样充斥着大量潜伏的地下同性恋现象。Tucker 表示自己在得克萨斯州东部的浸信会（Baptist）环境中长大，上学时身边就有不少人表现得“像三块钱纸币一样反常”（Queer as a three-dollar bill），但在当时压抑的社会与宗教环境下，根本没有人敢于公开出柜，直到成年后才有少数人敢直面自我。谈及宗教对性少数群体的排斥，Joe 深刻地感慨道：“有组织宗教最令人悲哀的失败之一，就是完全缺乏对同性恋群体的包容与接纳。”Tucker 对此深表赞同。
- **《盐湖城真实娇妻》**：节目深入展现了犹他州盐湖城受摩门教文化深刻影响的家庭与社交圈内幕。
- **深柜现象的普遍性**：宗教保守派家庭中逼婚导致的无性或掩饰性婚姻，往往在人到中年时引发剧烈的家庭破碎。
- **德州东部浸信会经历**：Tucker 亲历过极端保守教区对青少年性取向的压抑氛围，指出公开认同自我在此类社区曾是不可逾越的禁忌。
### [40:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=2400s) 宗教戒律的荒谬、古老神话与死亡恐惧
两个人由人际包容的话题聊到了宗教与圣经的戒律。Cody Tucker 提到，那种“我接纳你的人，但不接纳你的生活方式”的说法让人感到极为被冒犯。Joe Rogan 指出，许多针对现代生活的教条依据全来自旧约《利未记》（Leviticus），里面充满了在今天看来极为道德败坏的内容。Cody 也附和，旧约不仅禁止“男人与男人苟合”，还规定不能混合播种不同作物、不能穿两种不同材质混纺的布料，甚至不能吃甲壳类海鲜；Joe 调侃道：“你可没看到有人在红龙虾餐馆（Red Lobster）门前抗议。”两人一致认为，现代人挑选某些条目去抨击同性恋是十分荒诞和愚蠢的。Cody 直言，只要不伤害别人，任何人信什么都可以，但他个人更愿意复兴希腊神话：“去神庙里拜拜宙斯（Zeus）那些神明，那可比读圣经有意思多了。”
Joe Rogan 分析，圣经里很多关于奴隶制和将女性视作二等公民的内容，明显出自人类自身的私欲与局限；很多福音书在耶稣死后很久才被未曾谋面的人撰写下来，假托耶稣之名，而且旧约中关于人类寿命的记载离奇荒谬，比如诺亚造方舟时六百岁、玛土撒拉（Methuselah）活了近千岁、亚伯拉罕（Abraham）活了几百岁。这类超自然大洪水的故事，本质上都是从《吉尔伽美什史诗》（Epic of Gilgamesh）等更古老的源头演变而来的。
紧接着，Cody 坦白自己对未知的渴求与最大的恐惧：
“我怕死怕得要命，那是我在这个世界上最害怕的事。”（“Like, I'm terrified of death. That's the thing I'm most terrified in the world.” —— Cody Tucker）
对此，Joe 追问死亡有什么好怕的，Cody 半开玩笑地反问万一死后下了地狱或者“见鬼去了”（Heck）怎么办，同时最让他无法释怀的是死后家人会思念自己。Joe 则指出每个人都害怕死亡，却没有人害怕每晚入睡，而入睡其实就是意识彻底切断的过程。
---
### [43:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=2580s) 睡眠、平行时间线与菲利普·K·迪克的科幻构想
围绕入睡时的意识断层，Joe Rogan 提出了一个关于现实本质的哲学假说：人们以为每晚睡觉只是休眠，第二天醒来顺理成章地继续过昨天的生活，但你怎么知道你醒来时处于同一条时间线上？Cody 反驳说自己昨天计划好的事情今天正在实现，Joe 则反唇相讥，认为那不过是脑海中残留的记忆让人误以为生命始终处在同一轨迹上。
Joe 由此引出量子层面的奇特性、多世界理论（Many-Worlds Theory）以及科幻作家菲利普·K·迪克（Philip K. Dick）的激进思想。在 1960 年代，菲利普·K·迪克就坚信人类身处于电脑模拟之中，并且有着极其古怪的观点：人类的有意识决定能够回溯性地改变过去。两人聊到这里不禁拿菲利普·K·迪克的名字开起了双关玩笑（“Dick fan”），Cody 承认自己只能算中度书迷，但也感叹无论是写出《仿生人会梦见电子羊吗？》的菲利普·K·迪克，还是亨特·S·汤普森（Hunter S. Thompson），这些怪诞的思想家都彻底重构了大众看待世界的方式。
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### [45:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=2700s) 逃避未来的“宅猫”心理与对过去的迷恋
谈到科幻小说，Cody Tucker 坦承自己并不热衷科幻，也不迷恋《星球大战》（Star Wars）或《星际迷航》（Star Trek），虽然喜欢《银翼杀手》（Blade Runner），但他极度抗拒去思考未来。
“我讨厌未来……因为未来还没发生，我不知道该期待什么，我一点也不喜欢改变，我讨厌改变。”（“I hate the future... Because it hasn't happened. I don't know. I don't know what to expect. Like, I don't like change at all. I hate change.” —— Cody Tucker）
Cody 形容自己是个极度依恋舒适区的人：每天吃一模一样的早餐、穿一模一样的衣服，甚至如果把他当成饲养箱里的乌龟养着他也心满意足。Joe 笑称他就是一只“家猫”（House Cat），并提到爱德华·斯诺登（Edward Snowden）在流亡俄罗斯时也这样自称——斯诺登曾对 Joe 说，只要给他一台电脑和网络连接他就很满足，根本不需要外出，而且在当前的局势下斯诺登出门还有被强征上战场的风险。
Cody 坚信未来充满了不适的剧变（比如飞行汽车和刺眼的 LED 灯），唯独面对 Joe 提问“如果造出了火辣的机器人助手你买不买”时，他笑着松口说自己或许能被动摇一点，像《机械姬》（Ex Machina）那样。相比虚幻的未来，Cody 痴迷于历史：
- 过去是真实发生过的，而未来只是未知的投射与猜测。
- 探索两千年前古人的思想令人震撼，比如古罗马皇帝马可·奥勒留（Marcus Aurelius）的斯多葛学派哲学，在两千年后的今天依然能完美抚慰现代人的心灵。
- 他喜欢走在美国任何一个城市时想象这里在 150 年前的维多利亚时期是什么模样、弥漫着什么气味。
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### [48:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=2880s) 亲历历史的张力：马可·奥勒留与致幻秘仪
谈及历史古迹，Joe Rogan 询问 Cody 是否曾去过罗马亲眼目睹大竞技场（Colosseum），Cody 坦白自己这辈子从没出过美国国门，并认为自己看纪录片或翻翻书就足够了，不需要大老远跑出去。然而 Joe 坚决认为，虽然纪录片很精彩，但亲自置身于历史遗迹现场带来的冲击力是无可替代的。
Joe 借此向 Cody 推荐了学者布莱恩·穆拉雷斯库（Brian Murarescu）的著作《永生之钥》（*The Immortality Key*）。该书考证了古希腊的厄琉息斯秘仪（Eleusinian Mysteries）以及古代致幻剂的使用历史。Joe 指出，马可·奥勒留当年也曾亲身参与过厄琉息斯秘仪，而这种神秘体验极大地滋养了他的传世之作《沉思录》（*Meditations*）。Joe 感叹道，马可·奥勒留统领着人类历史上最强大凶悍的征服军队，但在个人思想层面，他对待宽恕、真理与认知的洞见，却像一个深受致幻启迪的吟游诗人，这种反差是如此不可思议。
### [50:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=3000s) 希腊秘仪遗迹与对公共暴力的厌恶
Joe Rogan 回忆起与 Brian Muraresku 一起参观希腊厄琉息斯（Eleusis）的经历。当时他正与家人在希腊度假，恰好碰上 Brian，后者便带他们游览了举行厄琉息斯秘仪（Eleusinian Mysteries）的历史现场。置身于数千年前古人撰写思想与举行神秘仪式的原址，Rogan 感受到一种极其诡异的氛围；尽管他承认这种感觉可能源于自己身处历史胜地所产生的强烈心理暗示，但肉身亲临现场的震撼感依然无可替代。
两人谈及古迹探索时，Cody Tucker 提到金字塔是他人生清单上的首位目标，而 Rogan 则分享了自己前往墨西哥尤卡坦半岛参观奇琴伊察（Chichen Itza）玛雅金字塔的震撼体验。Tucker 开玩笑表示自己是个行动极为迟缓的人，从得克萨斯州的朗维尤（Longview）开车四小时来到奥斯汀对他来说都算跨出了舒适圈。
话题随后转向现代娱乐与人际冲突。Tucker 提到自己喜爱看《真实家庭主妇》（Real Housewives）等真人秀，而 Rogan 则表示完全无法忍受，因为他容易产生替代性焦虑（secondhand anxiety）。在谈到现实中的公共争执时，Tucker 承认自己偶尔爱看路人吵架，但 Rogan 对街头暴力表现出极度的厌恶与警惕：
> “Stupidity and especially that kind of stupidity, I think it's really fucking dangerous. I think people engage in it freely as if there's no consequences over things that mean nothing in the long run of your life.” —— Joe Rogan
Rogan 强调，街头斗殴毫无意义却可能彻底毁掉一生。他身边就有人因打架头部撞在路沿上，沦为需要母亲终身照料的植物人。这种悲剧往往由于伤者并未立刻死亡而不会演变成谋杀案，凶手逃脱了极刑，受害者的人生却已被完全夺走。
- 厄琉息斯秘仪遗址让 Rogan 产生了难以言喻的心理震颤与时空敬畏感。
- 墨西哥尤卡坦的奇琴伊察玛雅金字塔给 Rogan 留下了深刻印象，但如今当地的安全局势略显复杂。
- 街头斗殴的极度危险性：头部撞击水泥地面或路沿往往会导致不可逆的脑损伤、瘫痪甚至终身残疾。
---
### [55:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=3300s) 高度解题与残暴街斗：格斗解说生涯与体育暴力哲学
虽然 Rogan 极度排斥现实中的公共暴力，但他自嘲可能是地球上有史以来见证过最多人“挨揍”的人之一。他从 1997 年开始为 UFC 工作，并从 2001 年起全职投入解说，至今已有超过 25 年的职业经历；巅峰时期他每年要参与 20 多场赛事，几乎隔周就要奔波在路上。截至 2024 年，他官方正式解说的比赛已达 3,250 场。如果算上他平日在健身房、备战研究中观看的柔术比赛、踢拳赛事和综合格斗录像，他观看的高水平格斗总数已轻松突破 7,000 到 10,000 场。
面对这种反差，Rogan 解释称自己热爱的根本不是暴力本身，而是人类在极端压力下的智慧较量与战术博弈：
> “What I really like is high-level problem solving, and that's what it is. It's like very intense, very—I call it high-level problem solving with dire physical consequences.” —— Joe Rogan
Tucker 深表赞同，指出观众想看的不是单纯的流血，而是一个人如何凭借意志、体能与策略逆转困境、追求伟大。Rogan 认为，除了战争以及特警、急救人员等涉及生死攸关的职业之外，受控规则下的格斗运动是竞技体育中最扣人心弦的巅峰对决。
两人分析了正规竞技格斗与街头斗殴的本质区别：八角笼内是双方自愿、体重匹配、有严密医疗团队和裁判介入的受控竞技，赛后选手会拥抱致意；而在街头或停车场斗殴中，毫无规则可言，旁人随时可能冲上来冲着倒地者的面部狠踢。Tucker 补充道，这种恐惧感类似于观看美式橄榄球时害怕球员遭遇严重脑震荡，现实中的无序伤害只会让人反胃，而赛场上的碰撞才是运动员之间的纯粹较量。
### [01:00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=3600s) 突破人类极限：从倒立十字支撑到滑板900度转体
讨论由竞技体育中的严重撞击开场，乔·罗根（Joe Rogan）与科迪·塔克（Cody Tucker）都表示极其反感看到运动员发生头盔对头盔的冲撞、被撞到失去意识连路都走不稳的惨状；但罗根强调，他极度着迷于顶级运动员在双方认可的规则下完成不可思议的壮举。罗根随即分享了一段近期让他惊叹的体操视频：一名俄罗斯体操选手开创性地在吊环上完成了“倒立十字支撑”（inverted iron cross）。面对科迪“什么是十字支撑”的疑问，罗根解释这是吊环项目中最难的动作之一，需要运动员将双臂水平展开、完全悬空支撑体重；科迪开玩笑说这就像文斯·沃恩（Vince Vaughn）在电影《重返校园》（*Old School*）里一边抽烟一边做的动作，罗根则指出真实做出倒立十字所需的力量简直匪夷所思。当科迪打趣问如果自己从今天开始练需要多久时，罗根毫不留情地调侃说至少要五六十年，还得疯狂减重、打类固醇、找教练并搬去俄罗斯。
两人探讨起打破人类生理与心理障碍的奇妙规律：历史上许多被视为不可能的极限，一旦有第一人打破，后续突破就会接踵而至。科迪提到了罗杰·班尼斯特（Roger Bannister）首次在4分钟内跑完1英里的传奇，在此之后仅一年就有大约六个人相继打破该记录。科迪直言这种心理机制非常微妙：“There's something about knowing that something's achievable that makes it infinitely easier.” 随后科迪以 X Games 极限运动会举例，1999年托尼·霍克（Tony Hawk）在滑板半管中首次完成900度转体时震撼了全世界，宛如“见证耶稣在水面上行走”；然而如今，一名日本小孩在7岁时就完成了900度转体，到了9岁甚至能完成连续两次900度转体。
罗根强烈推荐科迪观看托尼·霍克的纪录片《直到轮子掉落》（*Until the Wheels Fall Off*）。科迪提到纪录片开篇展示了年事已高的霍克在私人U型池里一次又一次重重摔倒在地、遍体鳞伤却依然不知疲倦地尝试完成900度转体，这种纯粹为自己而战、绝不轻言放弃的执念令人肃然起敬。然而科迪话锋一转，幽默地自嘲自己完全相反，生平最喜欢的事情就是放弃——只要一遇到困难，就会心安理得地立刻停下来换件轻松的事做。
- 俄罗斯体操运动员开创吊环倒立十字支撑动作，将身体倒置呈倒立状并向两侧展开双臂，展示出极强力量。
- 罗杰·班尼斯特突破1英里4分钟大关后，次年便有多达6名选手相继跑进4分钟。
- 托尼·霍克于1999年 X Games 历史性首摔并最终成功落地900度转体，而如今已有9岁日本男孩能够连续完成两次900度转体。
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### [01:04:55](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=3895s) “怪人搭档”的求知欲：记忆冷知识与渴望长生不死
罗根与科迪开玩笑说，两人性格天差地别，坐在一起就像经典情景喜剧《怪人搭档》（*The Odd Couple*）里的费利克斯（Felix）和奥斯卡（Oscar）。虽然科迪调侃两人的韦恩图重合部分微乎其微，但罗根指出他们有着强大的共同底色：对历史、独特冷知识与边缘事实近乎偏执的热爱。科迪回忆了自己沉迷流行文化、电影、音乐发行年份等细节的根源：在他大约五岁时，父亲为了在叔叔们面前炫耀，经常出音乐题考他谁唱了什么歌，年幼的他对答如流并由此迷恋上用知识震惊全场的快感。由于他的哥哥极具棒球天赋，自认缺乏运动才能的科迪便将“掌握别人不知道的古怪事实”当作树立存在感的方式。
罗根对这种对世界保持无穷好奇心的特质深有共鸣，并提到了经常做客节目的单口喜剧演员布莱恩·辛普森（Brian Simpson）。罗根形容布莱恩就像是一座行走的趣味信息宝库，两人日常只要在网上刷到离奇有趣的硬核冷知识，就会一整天不停地互相转发。这种对全知境界的执着也让科迪产生了强烈的技术乐观主义与长生欲望。科迪坦言自己对死亡的最大恐惧就是无法知道未来世界还会发生什么，他毫不掩饰地表示如果未来出现能无限延长寿命的技术，自己会第一时间加入。当罗根询问他是否真的愿意永生时，科迪语气极其坚定：“If technology came along that could extend your lifespan literally indefinitely, sign me up.” 即使面对像约翰尼·德普（Johnny Depp）主演的科幻惊悚片《超验骇客》（*Transcendence*）中意识上传失控的灾难结局，科迪也毫不在意，甚至戏称即便明知《侏罗纪公园》里那么多无辜的人惨遭横祸，自己也绝对会买票入园。
- 科迪从5岁起在父亲的问答训练下展现出记忆流行音乐与上映年份的天赋，以此获得认可。
- 喜剧演员布莱恩·辛普森是罗根圈子里狂热交流奇闻异事的代表人物。
- 科迪坚决反对“活到90岁就该去死”的消极态度，直言面对能无限延长寿命的科技突破时会毫不犹豫选择永生。
---
### [01:07:34](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=4054s) 基因工程与物种复活：恐龙猜想与“巨兽”公司的恐狼再造
谈及《侏罗纪公园》的现实可能性，罗根指出尽管人类目前缺乏真正的恐龙 DNA，但这并不能阻挡基因科技的步伐。他推测科学家未来很可能通过鸟类 DNA 进行逆向工程，在繁育迭代中逐一激活并赋予特定性状，从而“制造”出一只真正的恐龙。罗根提到基因工程公司 Colossal Biosciences 正在开展的前沿工作：他们不仅致力于复活袋狼（Thylacine，又称塔斯马尼亚虎），甚至已经利用基因编辑培育出了恐狼（dire wolf）。
罗根透露自己曾亲自造访 Colossal Biosciences 的设施，他的女儿当时还与一只约四个月大的恐狼幼崽亲密互动。那只幼崽看起来和普通小狗一样亲人，会摇着尾巴求抱抱、舔人的脸并躺在怀里撒娇，尽管罗根清楚等其成年后攻击性将不可同日而语。科迪惊恐地打趣罗根当时难道不怕那只幼崽像电影《怪形》（*The Thing*）里的异形怪物一样突然裂开大嘴咬断胳膊。罗根随后阐释了背后的基因原理：科学家提取了远古恐狼的遗传样本，对基因组进行测序，并以此编辑修改灰狼的基因。面对科学界关于这种生物“并非纯正恐狼、只是被修改了基因的灰狼”的质疑，罗根表达了对 Colossal Biosciences 首席古遗传学家贝丝·夏皮罗（Beth Shapiro）观点的支持，并犀利反驳了分类学上的吹毛求疵：“Well, I don't know. You can decide all you want what it is, but what it is is very different than any other wolf that's ever lived since dire wolves have died.” 罗根认为，无论是黑猩猩还是凤头鹦鹉，物种的定义本质上是人类主观划定的范畴，而这批重获远古性状的狼与自恐狼灭绝以来存在的任何现代狼都有着本质的不同。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: Colossal Biosciences De-extinction Workflow
accDescr: Diagram showing how ancient dire wolf DNA is sequenced and used with CRISPR gene editing on grey wolves to engineer a living dire wolf proxy.
subgraph AncientDNA ["远古遗传物质提取"]
A["恐狼化石样本"] --> B["全基因组测序分析"]
end
subgraph GeneEditing ["现代基因组工程修改"]
B --> C["识别恐狼关键表型基因"]
D["现代灰狼细胞 / 胚胎"] --> E["CRISPR 基因编辑替换"]
C --> E
end
subgraph DeExtinction ["物种复活成果与争议"]
E --> F["具备恐狼性状的活体幼崽"]
F --> G{"分类学界争议"}
G -->|"质疑派"| H["仅是基因改造过的灰狼"]
G -->|"罗根与夏皮罗派"| I["本质上已是恐狼（具有灭绝物种特征）"]
end
```
- Colossal Biosciences 正在推进袋狼复活计划，并已利用基因编辑灰狼培育出具有恐狼特征的幼崽。
- 罗根曾带女儿实地参观幼崽，形容4个月大的恐狼幼崽行为表现与普通犬类幼崽一样亲人温顺。
- 著名古遗传学家贝丝·夏皮罗参与主导该技术，针对外界“这不是真正的恐狼”的技术争议，辩论的核心在于物种界定究其本质只是人类设定的基因与性状分类标签。
### [01:10:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=4200s) 恐狼的基因重塑与物种界定的模糊性
乔·罗根（Joe Rogan）和科迪·塔克（Cody Tucker）围绕基因工程与物种界限展开了探讨。罗根提到，所谓的“物种”本质上只是一套决定特定特征的基因集合，而科研人员已经通过基因工程培育出了具备恐狼（dire wolf）全部特性的动物。这种被重塑出的狼在外貌上极其独特：通体纯白，并且脖子周围长有一圈厚厚的鬃毛，宛如雄狮的鬃毛，甚至有点像罗根家里的金毛寻回犬，奔跑起来体型更敦实、骨架更粗壮有力。面对这种变化，科迪提出了一个生物学上的根本困惑：基因变异与形成新物种的分界线究竟在哪里？比如一只鸟偶然长出了红鸟喙而非普通的黄鸟喙，究竟到哪一步人们才会把红喙鸟归为独立的新物种？
罗根解释说，物种分类很大程度上是人类生物学家设立的主观标准。针对人类强加给生物界的分类学规则，Joe Rogan 明确指出：“生物学家做出了这些决定和划分，但归根结底，大自然根本不在乎你说了什么。”自然界充满了不可预测的变异，而人类内部的形态差异其实就已经达到了夸张的程度。如果把沙奎尔·奥尼尔（Shaquille O'Neal）与凯特琳·詹纳（Caitlyn Jenner）放在一起，或者把喜剧演员鲍比·李（Bobby Lee）与摔角巨星霍克·霍肯（Hulk Hogan）放在一起对比，两者的骨骼体型相差悬殊，但生物学上却属于同一种人类。科迪与罗根一致认为，如果是外星生物在野外观察人类，单凭巨大的体型与外貌差异，很可能会断定这是完全不同的多个物种。
- 基因工程重构出的恐狼特征：毛色纯白、颈部带有类似狮子或金毛寻回犬的厚重鬃毛、骨架粗壮敦实。
- 人类形态的极端反差：如世界上最高的人与最矮的女性同框，或者奥尼尔与鲍比·李的体型对比，展现了同一种族内部巨大的生理多样性。
---
### [01:12:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=4324s) 脑垂体肿瘤、巨人症与综合格斗选手“大脚”席尔瓦
谈到极端的人体尺寸时，罗根和科迪提到了世界上最高的人（身高约8英尺3英寸，约251厘米）。罗根指出，长到这种惊人高度的人往往饱受折磨，不仅行走需要拐杖，全身骨骼与关节也在承受慢性剧痛，因为人体关节原本就不是为了承载如此庞大的骨架和质量而设计的。这种超常生长通常源于脑垂体腺瘤，肿瘤导致人体源源不断地分泌异常过量的生长激素，促使面部骨骼畸形发育，形成类似于“复活节岛石像”般突出的长下巴与粗大眉骨，正如传奇摔角手巨人安德烈（Andre the Giant）那样。
罗根以综合格斗（MMA）名将安东尼奥·“大脚”·席尔瓦（Antônio "Bigfoot" Silva）为例，深入剖析了肢端肥大症对格斗运动员的深远影响。“大脚”席尔瓦同样患有脑垂体肿瘤，后来他通过手术切除了该肿瘤，但这彻底破坏了他的内分泌系统平衡。切除肿瘤后，他的身体无法正常产生激素，而恰逢当时格斗界全面禁用了睾酮替代疗法（TRT），导致他的激素水平严重暴跌，竞技状态断崖式下滑。但在手术和禁药令之前，席尔瓦的战斗力堪称恐怖。Joe Rogan 谈及席尔瓦的巅峰状态时感叹：“当他在用药巅峰期，体重达到300多磅并且身形无比庞大时，他简直是在屠杀对手。”当时体重超过300磅、拥有巴西柔术黑带的席尔瓦，甚至在擂台上以极具统治力的方式击败了史上最伟大的重量级传奇菲多·艾米连科（Fedor Emelianenko）。
---
### [01:14:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=4454s) 史上最高人类罗伯特·瓦德罗与关于巨人的传说
科迪提出了历史上著名的人类第一高人——身高达到8英尺11英寸（约272厘米）的罗伯特·瓦德罗（Robert Wadlow）。科迪最初以为瓦德罗并没有患病，只是单纯长得巨大，但资料显示瓦德罗同样是因为脑垂体肥大导致体内生长激素失控。在20世纪20至30年代，矫正脑垂体的手术极其危险且无法保证成功率，因此瓦德罗的父母最终放弃了外科干预。瓦德罗在高中毕业时身高就已经达到8英尺4英寸，双腿和双脚因神经压迫几乎失去知觉，必须依靠腿部矫正支架才能勉强行走，但他一生都拒绝坐轮椅。瓦德罗穿惊人的37码特制鞋，年仅22岁便不幸离世，死因正是腿部支架与特制鞋的钉子磨破皮肤引发了致命的水疱感染与败血症。
两人的话题随后延伸至神话历史与各地民间传说中的“巨人”。世界各地的古老叙事中频繁出现巨人的形象，例如《圣经》中的歌利亚（Goliath，传闻拥有六根手指），以及美洲原住民的古老传说。科迪和罗根惊奇地发现，美洲原住民在完全无法接触《圣经》文明的情况下，竟然也流传着关于拥有六根手指、六根脚趾、红发白肤的巨人民族的故事。科迪对此心存疑虑，认为如果真有巨人民族，现代不应该毫无踪迹；罗根则反驳称，90%曾在地球上存活过的物种都已灭绝，巨人的传说完全可能指向真实存在过的某种已灭绝的人类近亲分支，正如科学界近年来才确认存在的丹尼索瓦人（Denisovans）一样。
- 罗伯特·瓦德罗（1918–1940）：历史记载最高人类，身高8英尺11英寸，穿37码特制鞋，死于鞋具与腿部支架摩擦造成的局部严重感染。
- 跨文化巨人特征巧合：美洲原住民传说与中东古籍中均出现了“六指六趾、浅色皮肤、红发”的巨人形象。
---
### [01:17:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=4635s) 丹尼索瓦人的消亡与鸡的“恐龙捕食本能”
罗根进一步探讨了丹尼索瓦人的生理特征。最新古人类学研究表明，丹尼索瓦人的体格远比智人（Homo sapiens）高大强壮，拥有大得多的颅骨容量、巨大的脑容量、更宽大的下颌骨以及巨大的眼窝和眼球。针对科迪关于“如此庞大的种族为何反而走向灭绝、没有杀死智人”的疑问，罗根提出了生存竞争的假说。Joe Rogan 解释道：“我们可能是最聪明的，因为我们身体最脆弱；因为我们最弱小，所以我们可能最为凶残。”身材处于劣势的智人学会了制造更先进的工具，行事更加残忍高效，极有可能是智人群体出于自卫和消灭威胁的目的联合捕杀了这些庞大的人类分支，正如《大卫与歌利亚》（David and Goliath）故事所暗喻的那样。此外，庞大的体型需要消耗极其惊人的生存资源，在环境动荡期极易因食物匮乏而走向灭绝，正如大型恐龙因资源枯竭消亡，而小型恐龙后裔却活了下来。
谈及恐龙的演化后裔，罗根指出现代家禽——鸡，本质上就是活生生的微型恐龙。很多人以为鸡只是在草地上啄食草籽和虫子的小家禽，但只要亲眼目睹鸡捕食哺乳动物，就能看出它们骨子里残留的迅猛龙本能。罗根描述了一段经典的互联网视频：一只猫抓到了一只老鼠并在原地玩弄猎物，这时旁边一只母鸡突然迅猛冲出，以雷霆之势从猫嘴里抢夺走老鼠，疯狂地上下甩动、猛烈啄刺，直至将老鼠撕碎吞食。其他鸡见状也立刻围上来疯狂争夺。Joe Rogan 形象地总结道：“如果你认为鸡只是在草地上啄食的小可爱，那就大错特错了；如果它们抓到一只老鼠，它们会把那只老鼠彻底撕碎。”科迪也表示赞同，提到自己的祖父母曾养过鸡，鸡群之间残杀同类或争抢猎物的凶残场面同样令人心惊。
### [01:20:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=4800s) 真实犯罪痴迷、林赛·克兰西案与凯西·安东尼的长文
对动物界“啄序”（pecking order）与残害同类的讨论，很快引申到了人类自身。Joe Rogan 与 Cody Tucker 谈到人类同样会杀害自己的幼崽，并提及了林赛·克兰西（Lindsay Clancy）案。克兰西用运动拉力绳将自己的三个孩子逐一勒死，然而审判期间法庭外竟然聚集了数百名身穿粉色衣服的女性表达声援，这一幕让 Rogan 大为不解。有些人辩解称她认罪时可能仍处于精神病发作状态。Tucker 指出，如今海量人群深陷于 YouTube 等平台的“真实犯罪”（True Crime）内容，整天刷视频，结果把自己臆想成了专业侦探，但实际水平糟糕至极。
Tucker 拿看橄榄球打比方：就像自己坐在沙发上吃着椒盐卷饼看球，自以为懂的比 NFL 主教练还多，对着屏幕大骂教练的战术安排一样；这些整天沉迷真实犯罪内容的女性也将自己当成了《沉默的羔羊》里的克拉丽丝·史达琳（Clarice Starling），整天在 TikTok 等平台上臆想“警方掩盖真相”、“一定是丈夫干的”等阴谋论。Rogan 对此感叹：“这是现实版的达克效应（Dunning-Kruger effect）。”
随后，两人对比了当年的凯西·安东尼（Casey Anthony）案。当年全美几乎无人支持安东尼，所有人都认定是她杀了孩子以便脱身去狂欢派对。荒谬的是，安东尼最近竟然在 Substack 上发表长文，针对喜剧演员 Shane Gillis 在《周六夜现场》（SNL）开的“女性穿着像妓女”的段子大加抨击，宣称“女性在健身房想怎么穿就怎么穿”、“有毒男子气概必须终结”。Rogan 忍不住讥讽一个涉嫌杀害亲生骨肉的人居然试图抢占道德制高点：“这个女人杀了自己的孩子，她居然觉得自己有资格占据道德高地，对《周六夜现场》上的一个笑话指手画脚。”
- 林赛·克兰西（Lindsay Clancy）案：母亲用运动弹力绳逐一勒死自己的孩子，法庭外却有大量支持者身穿粉衫声援，被归咎于网民深陷真实犯罪内容引发的群体臆断。
- 凯西·安东尼（Casey Anthony）：曾因涉嫌杀害女儿震惊全美，如今在 Substack 发文批评 Shane Gillis 的脱口秀段子，声讨男性的“有毒男子气概”。
---
### [01:23:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=5025s) 健身房着装争议、脱口秀语境与“自我出卖”
谈到 Shane Gillis 的段子，Rogan 强调大家误解了幽默的内核：Shane 根本没有骂女性是妓女，而是在调侃自己——在那些身穿清凉服饰拍健身视频的女性背景里，自己看起来就像个猥琐的跟踪狂。Tucker 也解释道：“就像我侄子去年打扮成蝙蝠侠，并不代表他真的去打击犯罪一样。”
关于健身房的着装，两人都认为每个人完全有权穿自己喜欢的衣服，但某些过于轻薄的装束确实让人侧目。Rogan 提到自己在健身房见过有女性穿着极薄粉色短裤、不穿内裤做硬拉，弯腰时身体暴露无遗，Tucker 甚至开玩笑说“在她自己发现之前我就能看出她怀孕六周了”。但 Rogan 强调，展示好身材无可厚非，男性穿无袖背心去健身房也是为了秀手臂线条（show the guns）。
针对“whore”（妓女/出卖自己的人）这个词引发的激烈反弹，Rogan 解释说，真正的厌女症确实存在，某些人听到这个词便会自动联想到极端恶意的厌女行为，但 Shane 显然完全不是那种人。此外，“语言警察”的过度敏感也十分可笑。Rogan 自嘲表示这个词非常生动，甚至完全可以用在自己身上：当年《行运超人》（Fear Factor）在 2011 年重启时开出了天价报酬邀请他回归主持，他当时就直言：“我就是个见钱眼开的‘whore’，给那么多钱，咱们开搞吧！”Tucker 也笑着附和，换作自己出卖底线的报酬甚至会更低。
---
### [01:26:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=5190s) 政治极化、算法信息茧房与阿什利·圣克莱尔的转向
从脱口秀争议延伸开来，两人剖析了互联网对当代公共舆论的扭曲。网络原本应该汇集百家之言，但算法驱动的信息茧房（echo chambers）让每个人只接触与自己观点一致的群体，导致真相愈发模糊。 Tucker 尤其反感那些把某种观点彻底变成自身身份标识的人：“他们的某种观点直接定义了他们是谁，而且在他们参与的每一次对话中都会搬出来。”
Rogan 回忆道，在他成长的年代完全没有这种现象。过去即便有人在党派意识形态上有偏好，也绝不会渗透到生活的每一个微小细节；而如今，从纸吸管、电动汽车，到疫苗和医疗保健，世间万物都被打上了政治烙印。更极端的是“沉默即暴力”（silence is violence）的道德绑架，只要你不公开站队发声，就被自动打成对立面。Tucker 提到当年很多人因为没有在 Instagram 上发布支持抗议的“黑方块”（black square）而被网暴，两人戏谑地调侃，要是全美发个黑方块就能终结暴力，那现实世界早就进入新纪元了。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 现代网络极化与身份政治演变
accDescr: 展示算法信息茧房如何导致观点与个人身份绑定并最终走向泛政治化道德绑架的演变流程。
subgraph InternetEcho["网络生态与茧房"]
A["海量网络信息与观点"] --> B["算法推荐机制"]
B --> C["信息茧房与回音壁"]
end
subgraph Polarization["极化与身份认同"]
C --> D["观点演变为个人核心身份标识"]
D --> E["万物皆政治化<br/>(纸吸管/电动车/疫苗)"]
end
subgraph MoralCoercion["道德绑架与虚无行动"]
E --> F["非黑即白判定<br/>('沉默即暴力')"]
F --> G["虚假美德符号<br/>(如 Instagram 黑方块)"]
end
```
在审视互联网言论环境时，Rogan 指出生态中还充斥着大量的机器人（bots），许多极端言论并非真人所发。作为政治立场戏剧性转变的典型例证，Rogan 提到了《纽约时报》关于埃隆·马斯克（Elon Musk）前女友阿什利·圣克莱尔（Ashley St. Clair）的报道。圣克莱尔曾是右翼网络红人，据称与马斯克育有孩子，并据传拒绝了马斯克开出的 4000 万美元封口费选择公开爆料。而如今，她竟然彻底调转阵营，加入了美国民主社会主义者（DSA）组织，这种 180 度的大转向让 Rogan 和 Tucker 叹为观止。
- 泛政治化现象：如今无论是纸吸管、电动车还是医疗健康，几乎每一个社会议题都被政治阵营化。
- 阿什利·圣克莱尔（Ashley St. Clair）：前右翼意见领袖，马斯克孩子的母亲，传闻拒绝 4000 万美元封口费，近期立场发生彻底反转并加入美国民主社会主义者联盟（DSA）。
### [01:30:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=5400s) 社交媒体上的机器人大军与舆论操纵
Joe Rogan 和 Cody Tucker 讨论了当前社交媒体上极其猖獗的机器人（bot）账号现象。Rogan 提到自己看到一条关于 Elon Musk 的 Instagram 帖子，点进评论区立刻意识到这里已经沦为水军农场（bot farm）。成百上千个账号留下一模一样的言论，比如“他完全可以给她十个亿”、“他都有一万亿美元了，给她十亿她就闭嘴了”。点击这些账号会发现，它们几乎都是没有发过贴的私密账号，用户名也是毫无规律的名字加一串随机数字，纯粹是用来制造虚假民愤的账号。
Tucker 分享了自己亲身经历的类似诡异事件。他曾制作过一期关于 Henry Ford（亨利·福特）历史劣迹及其与纳粹关联的视频，结果视频评论区瞬间被成千上万条“否认犹太人大屠杀（Holocaust denial）”的言论淹没，迫使他不得不将视频下架。评论里不断刷屏声称死亡人数绝不是 600 万，而是某个极其精确且离谱的低数字。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 社交媒体机器人水军运作机制
accDescr: 展示从低成本生成虚拟账号到影响普通受众认知并压制真实信息的整个链路。
subgraph Creation ["账号生成与伪造"]
A["生成虚假人设<br/>(AI 照片 / 盗图)"] --> B["发布日常动态<br/>(低互动假象)"]
B --> C["用户名带随机数字<br/>(私密批量账号)"]
end
subgraph Operation ["低成本操控流程"]
C --> D["低成本发起水军活动"]
D --> E["批量复制粘贴固定话术<br/>(如攻击马斯克 / 刷虚假数据)"]
end
subgraph Impact ["舆论扭曲后果"]
E --> F["动摇不加甄别的吃瓜群众认知"]
F --> G["压制真实学术讨论与迫使创作者删帖"]
end
```
Rogan 指出，如今借助 AI 技术，机器人的逼真度分出很多层级。辨别这些账号的一个常用办法是倒查它们的第一条动态：许多号的第一条动态就发布在四周到六周前，且几乎没有任何互动；为了显得真实，账号会配上在后院荡秋千带孩子、或者修车的 AI 生成图或盗图，配以极其简短自然的文案。未来甚至会出现《机械姬》（*Ex Machina*）那种根本无法分辨真假的机器人。
- Rogan 感叹操纵公众视听的成本极低：“只要你有足够的钱买够多的机器人，你就能让整个世界相信某件事；其实甚至不需要多少钱，发起一场水军活动的成本相当低廉。”
- 只要针对某个人展开机器人攻击，就能轻易改变那些只关注表面信息的普通路人（casuals）对那个人的评价与看法。
---
### [01:32:38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=5558s) 大屠杀否认论的泛滥与背后推手猜想
Tucker 认为，自己视频引来的水军并不是福特汽车公司派来的，而是源于过去几年间大屠杀否认论在网络上的离奇抬头。这种现象一方面与当前的以巴冲突、对锡安主义（Zionism）的讨论高度重叠；另一方面，网络上流行着一部名为《Europa: The Last Battle》（欧罗巴）的纪录片，里面充斥着知名大屠杀否认者的荒谬观点，很多年轻人看完便深信不疑。Tucker 观察到，这种现象甚至不分左右翼立场，主要是与他同龄甚至更年轻的人群盲目跟风。
两人探讨了为什么正规学界很少去反驳这些谬论。Rogan 指出，大屠杀否认论本身极其令人作呕，任何有声誉的二战历史学者都不可能屈尊与大屠杀否认者平起平坐地辩论，因为去辩论就等于给这种言论提供了曝光平台。然而，网络上反复刷屏的特定虚假数字暴露了机器人的痕迹。Tucker 提到，评论中大量出现的并不是随机猜测，而是清一色刷出“271,000”或“217,000”这样的特定数字，声称通过计算当地犹太人人口得出的真实死亡人数就是这个，这种高度统一的说辞显然是有组织的行为。
Rogan 推测这种水军袭击背后是否存在外国政府势力的资助。如果某些反对以色列政策的国家想要削弱外界对犹太人群体的同情心，最核心的切入点就是去解构大屠杀的历史惨剧，因为现代以色列立国的道德与历史基石很大程度源于犹太人差点在纳粹德国遭到种族灭绝。大众对网络信息的轻信加速了这种虚假叙事的蔓延，很多人仅仅因为在网上看了一张表情包或短视频就对此坚信不疑。
---
### [01:35:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=5710s) 实名制争议与告密者匿名权的困境
面对虚假账号对舆论的污染，Rogan 直言：“我认为机器人账号应该被列为非法，真的，百分之百应该入刑。”他表示自己哪怕掉粉 25% 或者收益减少也无所谓，平台应该彻底清除机器人。Tucker 建议平台应引入类似交友软件的身份认证（ID）机制，用户必须上传身份证件并经过严格审核才能注册 Instagram 或 Facebook 等社交账号。
然而，Rogan 指出了推行实名制最大的弊端：剥夺了告密者（whistleblowers）的匿名安全空间。对于像 Edward Snowden（爱德华·斯诺登）或 Chelsea Manning（切尔西·曼宁）这样接触到高度机密、意图揭露政府对民众犯罪的人来说，匿名的网络渠道至关重要。Rogan 戏谑地指出，当年 Barack Obama（奥巴马）竞选时曾将“保护告密者”作为核心政纲，但上任后却成了对告密者打击最严厉的总统之一，竞选团队甚至悄悄从“Hope and Change”官网上删除了保护告密者的页面。
Tucker 认为在实名制下，告密者或许只能回归传统方式向报社爆料，但 Rogan 指出如今传统报纸早已式微，而且报纸自身受政治意识形态控制，根本不会刊登与其立场相悖的爆料。Rogan 进一步提到 Elon Musk 收购 Twitter 后公布的“Twitter Files”（推特档案）：
- 记者 Matt Taibbi 和 Michael Shellenberger 等人披露的内部邮件显示，Twitter 高管长期与情报机构保持直接联系。
- 政府情报机构主动指示平台审查并封禁账号，哪怕这些来自 Stanford（斯坦福）或 MIT（麻省理工学院）的顶尖科学家发布的是客观事实，只要不符合 Biden 政府的 COVID 政策，就会直接被平台封杀。
两人感叹，彻底消除机器人与保护正当匿名权之间存在无法调和的矛盾。如果为了保护揭露真相的匿名者而保留宽松的注册机制，就不可避免地会被恶意分子利用，用数以万计带名字和随机数字的僵尸号去定向爆破或操控舆论。
### [01:40:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=6000s) 社交媒体评论区的机器人大军与亨利·福特的黑历史
二人讨论了在网络上揭露政府或大企业内幕时所面临的舆论压力。Joe Rogan 指出，评论区经常被利用来操控公众认知，应对这种情况最好的方式其实是“直接无视评论”，但很多人做不到，导致公众意见被虚假扭曲。Cody Tucker 提到自己此前发布的一条视频因为涌入大量极端言论，不得不删除了动态。Joe 问他为什么不直接关闭评论区，Cody 坦言自己当时根本没想到这个选项，不得不感叹：“我当时被渗透了（I was infiltrated）。”
随后，他们在 YouTube Shorts 上找到了这条关于亨利·福特（Henry Ford）的原始短视频。视频中讲述了福特通过移动装配线将 Model T 的生产时间从每辆 12 小时缩减至 90 分钟，每天产能达到 10,000 辆，并给工人翻倍工资，几乎一手催生了美国的中产阶级。然而视频也揭露了福特极端反犹的一面：1920 年他创办了反犹杂志《国际犹太人：世界的问题》（*The International Jew, The World's Problem*）。年轻时的希特勒在其自传《我的奋斗》（*Mein Kampf*）中高度赞扬了福特，福特也是该书中唯一被称赞的美国人；希特勒后来甚至授予了福特德意志鹰徽大十字勋章（Grand Cross of the German Eagle）。
他们点开视频下方的评论，发现大量账号公然留言赞扬福特是“走在时代前列的人”，甚至有人写道“看到这些让我更尊重福特了”。Joe 和 Cody 仔细观察后发现，许多这类留言账号的用户名后面都跟着一长串乱码数字，极有可能是网络水军或机器人账号。两人联想到其他当时同情纳粹的西方名人，如查尔斯·林德伯格（Charles Lindbergh）、爱德华八世（温莎公爵）以及华里丝·辛普森（Wallis Simpson）。
- 汽车工业变革：福特让 Model T 生产耗时降至 90 分钟，日产量达到 10,000 辆。
- 纳粹渊源：福特曾获得纳粹德国颁发给外国人的最高荣誉“德意志鹰徽大十字勋章”。
- 水军特征：点赞反犹或极端言论的账号多数带有随机数字后缀，属于典型机器人生态。
---
### [01:45:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=6300s) Twitter 机器人生态与人造狂热
谈到网络机器人的泛滥，Joe Rogan 提到了前 FBI 分析师对马斯克收购推特（Twitter）之前的平台生态评估。当时推特官方声称平台上的机器人比例只有 5% 左右，而那是基于 100 条推文的所谓“随机抽样”得出的。而该分析师估计，推特上的虚假机器人账号实际上高达 80% 左右。Joe 指出，如果一桩交易涉及 440 亿美元的天价，卖家绝不希望买家发现买下的只是一堆对着深渊咆哮的机器人程序。Joe 深刻评论道：“宣传一直都存在……那你为什么不利用世界上有史以来最强大的宣传工具，组建一支大军在评论区带节奏呢？”
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: Twitter Bot Estimation Comparison
accDescr: 比较推特官方宣称的机器人比例与前分析师评估的实际比例及买家影响
subgraph Claims["数据争议"]
Official["推特官方宣称: ~5% 机器人<br>(基于100条推文随机抽样)"]
Analyst["前分析师预估: 高达 ~80% 机器人<br>(水军遍布的数字广场)"]
end
subgraph Consequence["资本与宣传机制"]
Deal["440 亿美元收购案<br>(买家承担虚假流量风险)"]
Manufacture["制造虚假情绪<br>(人造愤怒 / 人造狂热)"]
end
Claims --> Deal
Claims --> Manufacture
```
Cody 接着提出，如今很多流行文化都带着“人造愤怒”（Manufactured Outrage）或“人造狂热”（Manufactured Fandom）的痕迹，许多创纪录的电影或歌曲火得让人难以置信。他举例说，一些漫威超级英雄电影票房高得离谱，还有像埃拉·兰利（Ella Langley）的乡村金曲《you look like you love me》，打破了各种流媒体纪录，但他身边似乎没人听。Joe 则表示那首歌在得州其实超级流行，尤其是奥斯汀第六街（6th Street）的酒吧里到处都在放，并调侃 Cody 是生活在自己的“单人信息茧房”里。
> “宣传一直都存在。散发传单、发行宣传电影，这一切自古以来就有。那你为什么不利用世界上有史以来最强大的宣传工具，雇佣一支水军去评论各种事情呢？”——Joe Rogan
---
### [01:47:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=6420s) 严苛的版权封禁机制与乡村音乐的返璞归真
在试图播放 Ella Langley 走入后台的爆款短视频时，制作人 Young Jamie 提醒不能放原声，因为会触发 YouTube 的版权警告。Joe 震惊地分享了一个真实的版权案例：此前他和说唱传奇 LL Cool J 在播客里仅仅是用嘴巴把歌曲《Going Back to Cali》的歌词念了一遍，视频就惨遭版权系统标记（Content ID flag）。Joe 愤怒地感叹如今的版权系统已经荒谬到变态的程度，哪怕只是随意用嘴哼唱一小段经典吉他旋律（如 Cream 乐队的《Sunshine of Your Love》），播客都有可能被黄标或限流。Cody 听到后也半开玩笑地担心起来，因为他在自己的电影播客里有个固定环节叫“Creeded and Weave”，每次他们都会把 Creed 乐队的名曲《My Own Prison》唱出来。
随后，对话转向了为什么如今像 Ella Langley 和传统乡村音乐会迎来如此巨大的复兴。Joe Rogan 剖析了当代人的心理机制：整个现代社会充满混乱、不可预测性和技术焦虑，就像《怪奇物语》（*Stranger Things*）里笼罩在城市上空的遮天蔽日的心灵魔王（Mind Flayer）一样，给人类施加着巨大的未知恐惧。
面对这种由失控科技带来的窒息感，大众本能地渴望“简单化”（Simplicity）。乡村音乐描绘的画面——皮卡车、小溪边、敬畏上帝、简单明确的生活方式——正好切中了大众逃避现实焦虑的需求。这也就是为什么电视剧《黄石》（*Yellowstone*）和各类牛仔题材影视作品会风靡全美，人们只想回归简单，拥有一片属于自己的土地，静静守护属于自己的生活。
> “世界如此混乱，这使得简单化变得极具吸引力，乡村音乐也因此迎来了巨大的复兴……人们希望消除对未知的焦虑，因为对未知的焦虑就像《怪奇物语》里那只巨大的天空恶魔一样，始终笼罩在我们头顶，挥之不去。”——Joe Rogan
### [01:50:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=6600s) 现代音乐的同质化与独立音乐人的爆发
Cody Tucker 与 Joe Rogan 探讨了不同时代社会动荡对音乐创作的影响。Cody 指出，20 世纪 60 年代充满社会迷茫，却诞生了史上最具原创性与复杂性的音乐，当时的混乱转化为富有张力的音乐形态；而反观当下，不确定性反而催生了高度单一、缺乏冒险的公式化旋律，听众更倾向于在听歌前就预知曲风。虽然 60 年代也有针对泡泡糖流行乐的批量复制，但诸如 The Doors 和 Big Brother and the Holding Company 这样的前卫乐队依然能横空出世，而如今主流厂牌（如 Sony 等）几乎完全放弃试错成本，只愿重复过去经过验证的套路。
Joe Rogan 则提出了截然不同的维度：旧时代艺人必须受制于经纪人、厂牌与电台等传统看门人（gatekeepers），而如今只要一台联网设备，独立创作者就能直面大众。他以乡村歌手 Oliver Anthony 为例，指出其凭借一首在野外录制的《Rich Men North of Richmond》瞬间走红全球，首场公开演出便面对多达 1.2 万名观众，随后完全保持独立运营；两人还盛赞了 Anthony 的另一首代表作《Scornful Woman》。尽管 Cody 认同此类现象级天才的存在，但他依旧感叹当今许多音乐“在笔记本电脑上制作得过于完美”，彻底沦为冰冷的产物。正如 Cody 所说：“Where if I listen to Van Halen 1, I can hear the times where Eddie Van Halen fucks up. Right, right, right. Even though he's the greatest good artist of all time. I want to hear the imperfections in that.” 现代制作人将每一个细微瑕疵都剔除干净，使音乐滑向了某种“恐怖谷”效应。
```mermaid
flowchart LR
accTitle: 音乐产业分发路径演变
accDescr: 对比传统唱片工业层层把关的旧机制与互联网时代独立创作者直达大众的新模式
subgraph 传统时代["20 世纪传统模式（高门槛/看门人机制）"]
A["创作 Demo"] --> B["唱片公司 / 经纪人"]
B --> C["电台 / 实体发行渠道"]
C --> D["大众受众"]
end
subgraph 现代网络时代["现代网络模式（去中心化/独立爆发）"]
E["独立录制<br/>(例如在野外录歌)"] --> F["流媒体 / 社交平台直发"]
F --> G["病毒式传播<br/>(如 Oliver Anthony)"]
G --> H["万人线下演出现场"]
end
```
### [01:54:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=6850s) AI 生成内容的泛滥与现场演出的原始魅力
讨论延伸到了影视创作领域。Joe Rogan 提到自己近期在 YouTube 上看过的 AI 短片（例如《Dracula vs. the Wolfman》），尽管建模与画面还显粗糙与卡顿，但一个普通人仅凭一台笔记本电脑和 LLM（大语言模型）就能实现以往耗资数百万美元的视觉创意，这种赋能令人惊叹。Cody Tucker 则对这种门槛的大幅降低持保留意见，认为缺乏行业“瓶颈（bottleneck）”会导致劣质内容呈指数级泛滥，使优质作品的搜寻变得极度艰难，坚信很多时候“少即是多”。
针对数字泛滥的现状，两人一致认同线下现场演出（Live Performance）拥有不可替代的价值。Joe 提到他的喜剧俱乐部 Comedy Mothership 曾邀请过两支顶尖乐队登台演出：Oliver Anthony 及其乐队，以及深具南部摇滚与灵魂乐风格的 Red Clay Strays。Cody 表示 Red Clay Strays 是他极少数主动收听的现代乐队之一，并半开玩笑地透露该乐队主唱也是 Android 手机用户，笑称两者在反抗主流思潮上存在共鸣。
### [01:56:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=7005s) 技术依赖与个人生活选择：家庭、极简与确定性
从 Android 系统的话题切入，Joe Rogan 调侃 Cody 坚决抵制苹果生态的偏执，像《奥德赛》中把自己捆在桅杆上对抗塞壬歌声的船员一样拒绝便利。Cody 直言自己对“便利”毫不感冒，更享受生活中的粗粝感。随后话题转至人生规划，现年 32 岁的 Cody 被问及是否考虑组建家庭时坦言，伴侣已经育有孩子，自己未来很可能会正式承担起父亲的角色，尽管这意味着失去部分完全随心所欲的个人自由。Joe 强调生子会彻底改变一个人的精神世界，但坚决反对将生儿育女视作评判人生价值的唯一尺度。正如 Joe 所言：“Any sort of reductionist perspective on a person's life and purpose I think is ridiculous.” 历史上许多未曾生育的人同样对人类文明做出了巨大贡献。
谈话最后回到当下社会普遍蔓延的焦虑心态。Cody 表示自己别无选择，只能对未来保持乐观；Joe 则总结道，正是由于现实生活充斥着对未知的惶恐，大众才会集体逃向极简风格的音乐，或在疫情期间大规模投身于自给自足的农场生活（homesteading）。在话题切换之际，Cody 顺势吐槽了他最近看过的一部刚上映的烂片《The Last House》，引出下一阶段的讨论。
- **Comedy Mothership 演出嘉宾**：俱乐部历史上仅登台过两支高水准乐队——Oliver Anthony 乐队与 Red Clay Strays。
- **Android 用户群的默契**：Joe 顺带列举了 Brian Simpson 和 Andrew Wilson 等同样坚持使用 Android 的朋友，将其调侃为一种对抗主流科技同质化的“反叛行为”。
### [02:00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=7200s) 荒谬的怪兽电影结局与末日生存幻想
乔·罗根（Joe Rogan）与科迪·塔克（Cody Tucker）聊起了一部令人失望的科幻灾难电影。罗根忍不住疯狂吐槽该片的高潮与收尾：“前半段还不错，但结局大概是有史以来所有电影里最烂的结局之一，简直就像是他们拍到最后没预算或者没点子了一样。”罗根直接开启了剧透模式：剧情设定为外星怪物将一家人困在屋内，外星生物像巨大的章鱼或鱿鱼一样盘踞在屋外，窗户打不碎、门也出不去，导致多数幸存者被困死在屋里。片中的男主角由在《毒枭》（Narcos）中饰演巴勃罗·埃斯科瓦尔（Pablo Escobar）的瓦格纳·马拉（Wagner Moura）主演，罗根称赞其演技精湛，曾获奥斯卡提名，但影片本身的逻辑却烂到离谱。为了生存，身为工程师的父亲通过烟囱把捕兽夹扔到前门廊上抓捕小动物拖回屋里，靠这种方式苟延残喘。
最让罗根抓狂的是荒唐的结局：在熬了大约六年之后，其中一只怪兽竟然变成了“好怪兽”，阻止其他同类伤害这家人，甚至主动帮他们打开门放走他们。之后怪兽销声匿迹，一家人干脆开着船出海扬帆远航。罗根大声嘲讽：“这是你这辈子能在电影里看到的最愚蠢的结局。”全球只剩大约三十个人，他们却直接去航海了。
这番剧情引发了两人对真实生存能力的探讨。科迪坦言换作自己，在末日环境里连三天都撑不过去。他表示自己根本不会配额进食，一旦被困在屋里，他会在短时间内把所有的薯片和食物一扫而空。罗根询问他如果身处绝境是否会改变行为习惯，科迪回答：“这种生活习惯太根深蒂固了，我这么活已经太久了，只能硬着头皮走到底，直到轮子彻底掉下来为止。”他调侃说自己去医生那里检查身体各项指标都很健康，那就“带着健康的体检报告去死好了”。罗根又假设了一个场景：如果科迪一觉醒来发现自己置身荒野中的小木屋，周围一个人也没有，但配有步枪、大量子弹、柴火、柴火炉、水以及一屋子有趣的藏书，他能否靠猎打松鼠生存下去？科迪斩钉截铁地表示自己不会尝试：“我想要轻松的生活，我生来就不是为了过苦日子的。在身体上，我已经把自己彻底搞垮了。”不过科迪补充说，自己在脑力上依然热衷于接受挑战，脖子以下是在“节约能量”，留着以备不时之需。
---
### [02:03:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=7395s) “我能跑得过你”：关于跑步速度的自信与反差
当科迪声称一旦现实中真发生紧急危险，自己的爆发力会非常惊人、能以极快的速度逃跑时，罗根顿时乐不可支，直言科迪完全是在幻想。科迪坚持认为如果两人同时遇到猛兽追赶，自己绝对能拔腿狂奔并活下来，罗根则毫不客气地打破了他的幻想：“我第一名，你第二名。要是有一只鸡在后面追我们，我瞬间就能把你远远甩在身后，你绝不可能追得上我，这在生理上根本不可能发生。”
科迪试图用自己当年的40码冲刺（40-yard dash）成绩来辩解，称自己当时的爆发速度快得惊人。罗根一针见血地指出：“科迪·塔克，那肯定是很久以前的事了吧。”科迪也只能苦笑承认那确实是陈年往事。罗根笑道，科迪平时如此沉迷于事实与历史，头脑那么清醒聪明，却唯独在“自己能跑得很快”这一点上有着离谱的错觉。科迪自嘲道：“我只是记性好而已，但我在这方面确实非常自欺欺人。我觉得人生太短暂了，不有点幻想怎么过得下去呢。”
---
### [02:05:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=7546s) 自欺欺人的心理防线与未来的焦虑
科迪进一步剖析了自己的心态，解释这种“盲目乐观”其实是一种精神防御机制。虽然他表面上试图让自己相信一切都会好起来，但内心深处其实对未知充满了恐惧：“我内心觉得一切都会变得很糟，但对外我努力让自己相信‘一切都会没事’，这确实有点用。但在内心深处，我几乎对所有事情都怕得要死。”罗根感到不解，因为在外界看来，科迪的生活正如日中天：感情稳定、网络频道大获成功，还接连出版了两本书。
科迪坦白，自己是个典型的“如果……怎么办”（what-if）类型的人。无论当下多么顺利，他脑海中总会浮现极端灾难的念头，比如“如果我此刻突然心脏病发作怎么办？”或者“如果我在开车回家的路上死于车祸怎么办？”正是这种挥之不去的灾难化思维，让他极度厌恶思考未来，因为一旦望向未来，他看到的永远不是希望，而是潜在的倒霉事。
当罗根问他如果身体亮起红灯（比如糖化血红蛋白 A1C 出现异常）是否会主动选择更健康的生活方式时，科迪坦言道：“我很像那种‘只要检查结果还行，我就继续把这副身子骨往死里造’的人。”罗根指出，许多人在有了孩子之后心态会彻底转变，会为了陪伴年幼的孩子而戒除恶习、改变饮食。科迪对此表示认同，并提到自己其实在多年前就戒掉了酒精。
---
### [02:07:38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=7658s) 彻底戒酒与无法克制的暴食机制
谈到戒酒的经历，科迪透露自己已经大约七八年滴酒不沾了。他最早是在尝试“清醒十月”（Sober October）挑战时，体会到了不每天喝酒身体有多轻松。在那之后，尽管在11月又恢复了饮酒，但他发现自己已经无法从中获得乐趣，最终在次年2月彻底下定决心戒断。
科迪解释说，自己拥有非常典型的极端成瘾性格（all-or-nothing），根本无法做到“小酌”或“适量”：
- **酒精与食物的区别**：“这就是我的问题所在，任何东西我都没办法只碰一点点。这就是为什么戒酒对我来说相对容易——我不是说戒酒很轻松，而是逻辑上很简单，因为我可以一滴酒都不喝，我也能活下去；但我不可能做到完全不吃食物。这就是我的死穴，我总是在暴饮暴食，因为我总觉得怎么吃都吃不饱。”
- **恐慌性储备心态**：科迪自嘲有一种源自潜意识的“饥荒心态”。即便成长过程中并未挨饿受冻，他在面对酒精和食物时总有一种“必须全部占有”的病态恐慌。他举例说自己买啤酒时绝不会只买一箱18听的，因为总担心不够喝，所以非得买两箱36听才安心；而一旦家里备了这么多酒，他又会控制不住自己喝得酩酊大醉。
乔·罗根对这种暴食倾向深有同感。罗根坦言自己也是个大胃王和贪食者（glutton），一旦放开吃根本停不下来，只是平日里依靠极大的训练量把热量消耗掉了。然而一旦消耗跟不上，自己的肚子和腰两侧就会迅速长出赘肉，照镜子时会忍不住骂自己“看起来糟透了”。罗根回忆在第一次尝试纯肉饮食（Carnivore Diet）之前，他的体重一度飙升到了208至209磅（约94至95公斤），这对他的体型来说已经非常臃肿；而目前他的体重稳定在200磅（约90.7公斤）左右，处于他认为最理想的状态。
### [02:10:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=7800s) 体重波动、暴食习惯与间歇性禁食
两位嘉宾就体重管理展开了细致的讨论。Joe Rogan 谈到自己对体重的敏感界限：平时维持在 200 磅（约 90.7 公斤）算正常，一旦超过 205 磅（约 93 公斤）就会感到紧张。他表示只要体重稍微上升，身体就能明显察觉到负重感，“感觉非常糟糕”。但他坦言自己骨子里是个暴食者（glutton），一旦坐下来吃饭就停不下来。外出聚餐（尤其是吃意大利菜）时，他会吃得像头猪一样，一顿能吃掉两份主菜、两份牛排、大盘意面外加一大堆开胃菜，披萨更是来者不拒，直到肚子被撑到极限，整个人“就像被打了麻醉枪的熊一样瘫坐在那里”。
为了平衡这种暴食倾向，Joe Rogan 依靠极具自律的间歇性禁食。例如，如果他前一天晚上 7 点吃晚餐，次日通常会一直空腹到下午 1 点左右，期间还会完成训练和播客录制，从而给身体充足的时间消化分解多余的热量。相比之下，Cody Tucker 的体重则呈现出剧烈起伏的波浪状态。他坦承自己目前正处于“体重上升而非状态变好”的周期；每当意识到情况不对时，他会试图通过多吃沙拉来纠正，体重虽然会有所下降，但他觉得这种节食生活“太糟糕、太难受”，于是很快又反弹回去。
- Joe Rogan 的常态体重为 200 磅，超过 205 磅即会引发心理警觉并调整状态。
- Joe Rogan 采取大约 18 小时的断食窗口（晚 7 点至次日下午 1 点），期间进行高强度训练。
- Cody Tucker 的饮食与体重处于“吃沙拉减重但觉得难受”与“享受美食但体重飙升”的循环拉锯中。
---
### [02:12:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=7965s) 私人教练的价值与 Jelly Roll 的励志蜕变
当 Joe Rogan 询问 Cody Tucker 是否考虑雇佣私人教练时，Cody 一开始觉得“这感觉真的很蠢”，并表示自己无法被别人激励，也不想参加类似《明星减重俱乐部》（Celebrity Fit Club）那样的魔鬼新兵训练营。Joe Rogan 纠正了他的误解，指出找专业教练不是为了让人对着你大喊大叫，而是为了获得一个无需动脑思考的系统化方案——比如固定每周三次、每次一小时在特定地点碰面。虽然健身房里有很多水平低劣、只是混口饭吃的教练，但优秀的专业人士会像营养师一样坐下来了解目标，并陪伴学员走过初见成效的转折期。
为了说明运动改变人生的可能性，Joe Rogan 举了乡村摇滚歌手 Jelly Roll 的惊人案例。Jelly Roll 曾经体重高达 500 磅（约 226.8 公斤），过着极度放纵的生活，酗酒、暴食完全失控。如今他已经减掉了 300 磅（约 136 公斤），每天坚持跑步和锻炼。Joe Rogan 提到自己最近刚和 Jelly Roll 一起去犹他州猎麋鹿，看到 Jelly Roll 能亲自爬上高山，状态极佳。关于这种重获新生的感觉，Joe Rogan 援引对方的原话：
> “我这辈子从来没有感觉这么好过，真他妈的爽，我不敢相信自己居然花了这么久才走上这条路。”
---
### [02:14:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=8040s) 跑步机上的恐慌发作与低门槛训练原则
受健康意识驱动，Cody Tucker 曾买过一台跑步机（但后来沦为了挂衣架）。当时他一边在跑步机上走步，一边看着《指环王》（Lord of the Rings），幻想着自己在完成“前往魔多（Mordor）的徒步之旅”。但当走了 30 分钟左右，心跳加速、呼吸变得沉重时，他突然害怕自己会喘不上气，随即诱发了一场严重的恐慌发作（panic attack）。之后只要一站上跑步机，这种心理阴影就会卷土重来，即便生理上呼吸完全正常，大脑中的焦虑也无法平息。
Joe Rogan 强调，造成这种局面的原因是开局用力过猛（如擅自增加坡度）。他分享了自己在工作室旁边的健身房带喜剧演员训练的原则：第一天绝不让他们筋疲力尽，不施加任何压力，仅通过一系列平缓动作逐步建立身体的适应力和韧性。为了分散有氧运动对呼吸的焦虑关注，他极力推荐一边做有氧一边看电影。Joe Rogan 透露自己在“清醒十月”（Sober October）期间反复刷《疾速追杀》（John Wick），这种扣人心弦的复仇爽片能牢牢抓住注意力，让人忘却身体的疲劳。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 运动脱敏与心理分流机制
accDescr: 展示运动引发恐慌发作的心理循环以及通过低强度娱乐分流来打破该循环的策略。
subgraph PanicCycle ["恐慌诱发循环"]
A["开始锻炼 / 调高坡度"] --> B["心率上升与呼吸加深"]
B --> C["心理误判：担心无法换气"]
C --> D["诱发严重恐慌发作"]
D --> E["器械闲置变成挂衣架"]
end
subgraph Intervention ["Rogan 建议的调整策略"]
F["归零心态：从纯平路面慢速起步"] --> G["注意力分流：观看沉浸式电影（如《疾速追杀》）"]
G --> H["神经系统脱敏，无痛建立身体韧性"]
end
```
---
### [02:16:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=8190s) 无法独处的大脑：从焦虑失眠到内容创作动力
两人的话题随后深入到心理机制层面。Cody Tucker 坦言自己从三岁起就必须开着电视睡觉，至今仍是如此。关于这种必须时刻依赖外界声音的心理状态，Cody Tucker 坦言：
> “我永远、永远无法忍受独自面对自己的思绪，那太难以承受了。”
他尝试过几个月的冥想，学会了让念头自由来去，但事后情绪完全没有任何改变，因此他只能选择用源源不断的外部信息与消遣去“窒息”脑海中纷乱的思绪。
Joe Rogan 从创作者的角度对此给出了高度评价。他认为狭隘的人总以为所有人应该以同一种方式思考和生活，但许多极其出色的创作者之所以脑子好使，正是因为其大脑机制与众不同。Cody 无法与内心思绪独处这一“心理负担”，恰恰是他产出海量高质量科普内容的终极驱动力——因为需要转移注意力，所以去深挖大量的历史事实、冷门知识并将其制作成视频。Joe Rogan 赞扬这种内容给大众带来了深刻的视角转变，是真正有价值的服务，并戏称这与空洞浅薄的真人秀《真正的家庭主妇》（Real Housewives）完全是两个极端。Cody 对此笑称自己从未站在这个高度看待自己的作品，但听到自己的研究能启发他人，确实带来了极大的满足感。
### [02:20:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=8400s) 崇拜对象的阴暗面：从亨利·福特到特蕾莎修女
对谈从分享冷知识的兴奋感切入。Cody Tucker 提到，当有人以“你知道吗？”开头时，他的第一反应就是迫不及待想听下去；要是对方说出了一件他完全不知道的事，“天哪，那是我在世界上最喜欢的感觉之一”。Joe Rogan 极为赞同，尤其是得知那些广为人知的名流背后鲜为人知的荒谬一面。两人谈到像亨利·福特（Henry Ford）、甘地（Gandhi）、塞萨尔·查韦斯（Cesar Chavez）等人身上都有极其阴暗的历史，许多被世人推崇至极的伟人本质上却是恶劣之徒。
接着，两人详细探讨了特蕾莎修女（Mother Teresa）的真实面目。大众普遍将她视为善良与美德的化身，甚至把她的名字当成高尚道德的代名词，宛如爱因斯坦代表聪明一样。然而，Cody Tucker 指出，特蕾莎修女收治病人的所谓疗养院，本质上只是一个巨大的水泥仓库；她并没有把外界捐赠的巨额资金用于治疗病人，而是源源不断地送往梵蒂冈。因为她秉持“苦难能让人更接近上帝”的信条，所以她只是在成排濒死的病人之间穿行，看着他们的痛苦来体现这种所谓的信仰。
- 特蕾莎修女从戴安娜王妃等世界名流处筹集了数以百万计的善款，外界以为她慈悲为怀，她却几乎不提供有效医疗，病人只能躺在毫无阳光、没有窗户的水泥地上忍受痢疾和腹泻。
- 整个设施肮脏惨烈，如同折磨室，绝大多数病人在极端绝望中慢慢死去。
> “在大多数人眼里，那是个好人……特蕾莎修女就像爱因斯坦代表聪明一样，成了关怀、仁慈与美德的代名词。但她只是把绝大部分钱都寄给梵蒂冈，搞了一个折磨室，人们在里面不断受苦。” —— Joe Rogan
---
### [02:23:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=8625s) 艺术市场的暴利与现代艺术的“洗钱”争议
谈到梵蒂冈，Joe Rogan 回忆起自己造访那里的经历，坦言那地方让他感到非常诡异：教廷坐拥数十亿美元的艺术瑰宝，大师杰作层层堆叠，仿佛一群狂热的艺术囤积狂。两人随即指出，高端艺术品交易很大程度上就是一种挪用公款和洗钱的工具，甚至戏谑地提到了亨特·拜登（Hunter Biden）那些令人费解的高价画作。
两人特别聚焦于现代艺术领域的离谱定价。Joe Rogan 直言，许多极其容易创作的现代艺术作品动辄在佳士得（Christie's）或苏富比（Sotheby's）等顶级拍卖行以几千万甚至上亿美元的天价成交。比如画面上仅有几条红黑相间横条纹的画作，普通人花一个小时甚至更短时间就能画出来，却在拍卖市场上被赋予了代表几代人财富的离谱估值。
- 调侃艺术市场中的荒唐溢价现象：不知名艺术家的画作可以突然卖出 3,500 万美元，而某些极简画作甚至高达 6,000 万至 7,000 万美元。
- 讨论这类艺术作品到底是在反映艺术造诣，还是一场合谋的金融与洗钱骗局。
> “我不开玩笑，不管别人怎么说，有一幅画卖了——天哪我想说是有数千万美元，可能是 6,000 万美元——基本上就是一条红颜料、一条黑颜料再加上一条红颜料。而且它还非常出名。” —— Joe Rogan
---
### [02:25:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=8700s) 马克·罗斯科的天价画作与中央情报局（CIA）的现代艺术心理战
制作人 Jamie 在屏幕上调出了著名现代艺术作品的拍卖记录。他们看到马克·罗斯科（Mark Rothko）的一幅画作售价竟然高达 1.86 亿美元，而威廉·德·库宁（Willem de Kooning）以及杰克逊·波洛克（Jackson Pollock）的作品售价更是突破了 3 亿美元的天价。面对这些数字，Joe Rogan 随即向 Cody Tucker 揭露了一段冷战时期的惊人内幕：现代艺术的崛起背后其实是中央情报局（CIA）一手策划的心理战（PSYOP）。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: CIA现代艺术心理战运作流程
accDescr: 展示冷战时期CIA如何通过隐蔽资助和文化组织推广抽象表现主义以对抗苏联宣传的流程
subgraph Context ["冷战文化对抗"]
A["苏联传统现实主义与古典大师杰作"]
B["美国缺乏可与之匹敌的古典艺术"]
end
subgraph CovertAction ["中情局运作模式 (Long Leash)"]
C["中央情报局 (CIA) 秘密拔款"]
D["巴黎文化自由大会 (CCF) 及前沿中介机构"]
C -->|"间接资助"| D
end
subgraph ArtPush ["抽象表现主义崛起"]
E["代表人物：波洛克、罗斯科、德·库宁"]
F["以'形式的自由与反叛'对抗苏联意识形态束缚"]
D -->|"组织欧洲巡展 (1958-1959)"| E
E --> F
end
Context --> CovertAction
ArtPush --> G["现代艺术天价地位与国际声望确立"]
```
Joe Rogan 引用赞助商 Perplexity AI 的权威检索结果解释：在 20 世纪 50 年代冷战高峰期，为了与苏联的古典艺术与社会主义现实主义分庭抗礼，CIA 秘密资助了设在巴黎的“文化自由大会”（Congress for Cultural Freedom）。该机构表面上是独立的文化团体，实则是 CIA 实施反苏宣传的前沿阵地。波洛克、罗斯科和德·库宁等人开创的抽象表现主义，其高度的个体表达和前卫形式，被 CIA 包装成“美国思想与智力自由”的象征。通过“长绳策略”（间接注资而非直接出面）以及 1958 至 1959 年的欧洲巡回展览，美国现代艺术被迅速推上了国际声誉与商业价值的顶峰。
- 马克·罗斯科的作品在拍卖行卖到 1.86 亿美元，杰克逊·波洛克和德·库宁的作品则达到惊人的 3 亿美元。
- CIA 并不需要画作带有明确的政治标语；艺术形式本身的极端自由和解构，就是最有力的意识形态武器。
> “在 1950 年代，中央情报局资助了设在巴黎的文化自由大会，该组织赞助杂志、音乐会、会议和展览。它表面上是一个独立的文化组织，暗中却在推进反苏议程……画作不需要包含明确的政治信息，其形式的自由本身就是信息。” —— Joe Rogan 援引 Perplexity 检索资料
---
### [02:27:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=8850s) 劳雷尔峡谷与 60 年代摇滚音乐的反叛神话
从 CIA 策划现代艺术心理战，话题很自然地延伸到了中情局操纵社会的其他阴谋与传闻，比如臭名昭著的 MKUltra 精神控制计划，以及关于 20 世纪 60 年代加州劳雷尔峡谷（Laurel Canyon）反文化音乐圈的流言。Joe Rogan 提到，当时加州反主流文化音乐圈的大量核心成员，其家庭背景都与军事情报部门有千丝万缕的联系。其中最著名的例子就是“大门”乐队（The Doors）主唱吉姆·莫里森（Jim Morrison）的父亲——他不仅是一名海军上将，更是直接卷入北部湾事件（Gulf of Tonkin incident）的关键情报军官。
莫里森生前在接受采访被问及父母时，总是轻描淡写地撒谎称他们早已死于车祸（声称撞上了一群印第安人）。尽管莫里森的父母后来在 80 年代的乐队纪录片中罕见受访，但音乐圈与军方的这层重合始终让阴谋论者津津乐道。不过 Cody Tucker 与 Joe Rogan 探讨后指出，这种联系很可能只是一种统计上的巧合与社会代际反叛：
- 劳雷尔峡谷周边分布着众多军事基地，当地自然聚集了大量军人子弟。
- 身处军人家庭的叛逆青少年更容易产生反体制情绪；由于厌恶父辈的军队背景，他们倾向于扎堆进入反战和反叛圈子。
- 绝大部分军人后代最终成了普通教师、律师或医生，只有极少数碰巧极具音乐才华的人成了传奇乐队；将这种自然现象全盘归咎于情报部门的幕后设计，往往是人们在没有必然联系的碎片中强行拼凑幻象。
> “大门乐队？他们确实非常优秀。问题在于，你真的能通过工程手段设计出那种创造力和才华吗？” —— Joe Rogan
### [02:30:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=9000s) 人脑对规律的执念与反战音乐传闻
谈话从人类大脑强烈的“连点成线”机制切入。人们总是习惯于在完全随机的事物中寻找可能根本不存在的规律，而这正是假记忆能够被轻易植入、甚至让人言之凿凿描述从未发生之事的原因。因为人类大脑在认知一件事时，只要知道了开头和结尾，就会不由自主地强行编织一条因果链条去填补空白。视错觉正是利用了这种机制——例如在纯黑白图片中仅加入几条极细的绿线，就能让人把可口可乐易拉罐看成红色；又如著名的科恩斯威特错觉（Cornsweet illusion），两个灰度完全相同的色块，只要中间有一条明暗交界线，肉眼就会坚信下方的色块比上方浅得多，唯有伸手遮住分界线，这种错觉才会瞬间破灭。大脑在自然进化中建立的常理推断，反过来彻底戏弄了感官。
这种过度寻找联系的本能，也催生了无数关于历史事件的阴谋论。两人聊到了各种关于中央情报局（CIA）操控文化运动的传言，比如摇滚乐手吉姆·莫里森（Jim Morrison）的父亲与军方的渊源，以及中情局是否一手策划了嬉皮士运动或在幕后推崇嘻哈音乐。乔·罗根与科迪·塔克提到，虽然中情局确实有过组织抗议活动、利用文化先锋（如格洛丽亚·斯泰纳姆，Gloria Steinem）进行渗透的历史证据，但并非所有文化巨浪都能被官方幕后操纵。科迪·塔克明确表示：“我不认为你能凭空设计出一个吉米·亨德里克斯（Jimi Hendrix）。”
随后两人就亨德里克斯是否属于反战偶像展开了激辩。塔克指出，亨德里克斯本人当过兵，在日常生活中极为维护前线士兵，听到有人批评军队甚至会动怒；罗根则反驳称亨德里克斯在舞台上多次公开反对战争与暴力，最具代表性的就是1970年现场专辑《Band of Gypsys》中的名曲《Machine Gun》（机关枪）。亨德里克斯用吉他演奏出逼真的扫射声与尖叫，将越南战场的硝烟与国内伯克利的抗议冲突连结在一起，把这首歌献给在越南战场、伯克利街头以及在内心挣扎的所有人。
- 科学原理：科恩斯威特错觉（Cornsweet illusion）展示了人脑如何依赖边缘对比与光影规律来错误判断物体的真实色阶。
- 音乐考据：吉米·亨德里克斯在27岁英年早逝，名曲《Machine Gun》深刻记录了战争的残酷，但其反战立场主要针对政府与战争暴行，而非针对普通前线士兵。
---
### [02:35:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=9300s) 摇滚狂徒的火拼：蒙特雷音乐节与杰瑞·李·刘易斯撞门事件
谈及60年代摇滚巨星的离经叛道，吉姆·莫里森的极端作风被当成了反面典型。罗根调侃莫里森根本谈不上反战，“他纯粹就是喜欢当众掏生殖器”。著名制作人查克·洛里（Chuck Lorre）前几天做客节目时还透露，自己年轻时去看莫里森的演唱会，第一首歌还没唱完莫里森就当众解开裤子露体，最后当地警方竟然骑着高头大马冲上舞台将他强行架走。
紧接着，两人调出了一段关于1967年6月18日蒙特雷流行音乐节（Monterey Pop Festival）的经典幕后公案。吉米·亨德里克斯和谁人乐队（The Who）的皮特·汤森（Pete Townshend）在后台爆发激烈争吵，原因是谁都不愿意排在对方后面出场，因为谁也接不住对方那毁灭性的台风。汤森在后来的回忆中说道：“吉米就坐在椅子上对着我弹琴，像是在说‘别惹我，你这个小杂种’。”为了不给亨德里克斯当垫场，谁人乐队坚持先登台，汤森在表演结尾疯狂砸烂了自己的吉他；而压轴登场的亨德里克斯则上演了摇滚史上最著名的名场面——直接在舞台上将自己的吉他点火焚烧。
这种舞台“斗法”在老一辈摇滚乐手里更显凶悍。杰瑞·李·刘易斯（Jerry Lee Lewis）当年为了压过查克·贝里（Chuck Berry），在舞台上直接浇汽油把钢琴给点燃了，演奏完后对贝里叫嚣“我看你怎么接这出戏”。刘易斯更是一个货真价实的亡命之徒，一生劣迹斑斑，甚至涉嫌谋杀前妻。塔克回忆了刘易斯当年醉驾闯猫王（Elvis Presley）雅园（Graceland）的疯狂事件：他喝得酩酊大醉，驾车猛撞雅园的大门，挥舞着手枪叫嚣着要让猫王出来比试谁才是真正的摇滚之王；猫王躲在豪宅内通过监控摄像头看着这一幕并报警，警察赶到时，刘易斯甚至在车窗紧闭的情况下直接开门撞碎了玻璃。
- 蒙特雷对决：1967年6月18日，皮特·汤森在演出中怒砸吉他，亨德里克斯则以著名的“焚烧吉他”完成了摇滚史上的加冕仪式。
- 杰瑞·李·刘易斯的雅园事件：刘易斯在雅园门前掏枪寻仇，猫王全程在豪宅内看闭路电视监控，随后警方赶到现场将刘易斯逮捕。
---
### [02:37:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=9450s) 电视布道者与摇滚巨星的罪孽共性
话锋一转，科迪·塔克提到杰瑞·李·刘易斯其实与著名的电视布道家吉米·斯瓦格特（Jimmy Swaggart）以及乡村音乐传奇米奇·吉利（Mickey Gilley）是堂表兄弟。乔·罗根看着屏幕上斯瓦格特与刘易斯年轻时的合影，不由得感叹两人的眉眼间都透着一股危险狂躁的戾气：“如果我和这两个人单独呆在一个房间里，而且他们还在喝酒，尤其是斯瓦格特在场的话，我肯定会想‘我得赶紧从这里滚出去’。”
罗根与塔克深入剖析了传教士与演艺界明星之间近乎一体两面的特质。一个成功的电视布道家必须具备极强的舞台表演力与煽动性魅力，这与喜剧演员或摇滚歌手在台上的控场手段如出一辙。萨姆·基尼森（Sam Kinison）在转行成为咆哮派单口喜剧大师之前，本身就是一名巡回传教士。
然而，这种掌控信徒的狂热光环往往掩盖着巨大的阴暗面。吉米·斯瓦格特在1988年被曝光招妓丑闻，他在数以百万计的电视观众面前痛哭流涕地喊出那句名言：“主啊，我得罪了你（I have sinned against you, my Lord）。”然而仅仅三年之后的1991年，这位传道人再次因招妓被警方当场抓获。两人还提及了同期的另一位著名电视福音传教士吉姆·贝克（Jim Bakker）及其前妻塔米·费（Tammy Faye）。当年与吉姆·贝克卷入性丑闻的女主角杰西卡·哈恩（Jessica Hahn），后来更是戏剧性地成了喜剧演员萨姆·基尼森的女友，让这场交织着宗教道德、演艺圈秀场与人面兽心的荒诞戏码画上了一个闭环。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 演艺与布道家族的关系网络
accDescr: 展示杰瑞·李·刘易斯、吉米·斯瓦格特等人的家族关系以及宗教丑闻与喜剧界的交叉关联。
subgraph Family["家族血缘纽带"]
JLL["杰瑞·李·刘易斯<br/>(摇滚巨星/纵火砸琴)"]
JS["吉米·斯瓦格特<br/>(电视布道家/两次招妓丑闻)"]
MG["米奇·吉利<br/>(乡村音乐巨星)"]
JLL --- JS
JS --- MG
end
subgraph Scandals["宗教秀场与喜剧界的交集"]
JB["吉姆·贝克<br/>(电视布道丑闻)"]
JH["杰西卡·哈恩<br/>(丑闻核心女主角)"]
SK["萨姆·基尼森<br/>(原布道家/单口喜剧大师)"]
JB -->|"婚外情丑闻"| JH
JH -->|"后来成为女友"| SK
end
```
- 宗教丑闻节点：吉米·斯瓦格特分别于1988年和1991年两次因招妓丑闻被抓，其电视忏悔成为当时全美轰动的文化事件。
- 圈层重合：杰西卡·哈恩在引爆吉姆·贝克的性侵与财务丑闻后声名大噪，随后转入主流娱乐圈，并与同为布道家出身的传奇喜剧演员萨姆·基尼森相恋。
### [02:40:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=9600s) 杰西卡·哈恩、吉姆·贝克与摇滚传记片选角
乔·罗根与科迪·塔克谈论起当年轰动一时的宗教丑闻与娱乐圈轶事。谈及杰西卡·哈恩（Jessica Hahn）曾上过霍华德·斯特恩（Howard Stern）的节目并大骂喜剧演员萨姆·基尼森（Sam Kinison），两人甚至有过一段风流韵事。罗根回忆起当年萨姆·基尼森翻唱《Wild Thing》的经典音乐录影带，杰西卡·哈恩正是其中的女主角。看着屏幕上当年的旧照，两人感叹她当年的外貌确实极其火辣、妆容浓艳。罗根开玩笑称，面对这样的诱惑，难怪当年电视布道家吉姆·贝克（Jim Bakker）会把持不住而深陷丑闻，甚至当场模仿传教士忏悔的腔调喊道：“主啊，我犯了罪！”（"I've sinned, my Lord."）他们将贝克的出轨与当年休·格兰特（Hugh Grant）找街头妓女被捕的风波作对比，笑称吉姆·贝克至少找了个极具吸引力的对象。
随后话题转向了当年与贝克同样声名狼藉的电视布道家吉米·斯瓦格特（Jimmy Swaggart），以及他与摇滚先驱杰瑞·李·刘易斯（Jerry Lee Lewis）的堂兄弟关系。罗根提到了电影《大火球》（Great Balls of Fire!），赞叹该片的选角绝妙：丹尼斯·奎德（Dennis Quaid）饰演杰瑞·李·刘易斯，而亚历克·鲍德温（Alec Baldwin）饰演吉米·斯瓦格特。罗根认为亚历克·鲍德温对斯瓦格特的演绎极为传神，眼神中精准捕捉到了那种混杂着野心与黑暗的质感。他们还提到了片中饰演杰瑞·李·刘易斯年幼堂妹兼妻子的薇诺娜·瑞德（Winona Ryder），并谈到她后来在现实中出现的盗窃丑闻。科迪·塔克感慨道，巨额名利与公众关注所带来的重压往往超出常人承受范围，让不少明星最终陷入精神崩溃或行为失控。
- 杰西卡·哈恩曾出演萨姆·基尼森翻唱的《Wild Thing》MV。
- 电影《大火球》（Great Balls of Fire!）由丹尼斯·奎德饰演摇滚乐手杰瑞·李·刘易斯，亚历克·鲍德温饰演电视传教士吉米·斯瓦格特，薇诺娜·瑞德饰演刘易斯的表妹兼妻子迈拉·盖尔·布朗（Myra Gale Brown）。
---
### [02:42:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=9735s) 詹姆斯·布朗的疯狂逸事与荒诞枪击案
谈到那些性格疯狂的传奇巨星，两人立即聊起了“灵魂乐教父”詹姆斯·布朗（James Brown）。罗根与塔克一致认为布朗是个彻头彻尾的狂人，但其传奇性又令人叹服。他们回顾了布朗生命中数不胜数的离奇丑闻：包括布朗当年在夜总会试图袭击同行动乱歌手乔·特克斯（Joe Tex）；以及后来他因发现有人在自己办公室的私人洗手间上大号而勃然大怒，手持猎枪威胁众人，随后驾驶皮卡引发了一场跨越数个州的警方高速追捕，警方最终不得不击穿他的卡车轮胎才将他截停。
两人还大笑提起詹姆斯·布朗在保释期间接受新闻采访的经典名场面。当时记者试图严肃提问案件经过，神志恍惚的布朗却毫不理会，对着镜头不断背诵自己的歌词，大喊“我感觉棒极了！”（"I feel good!"）以及“你被保释了（out on bail），但我失去了爱（out of love）”。接着他们查看了一则荒诞的新闻报道：两名男子因为争论詹姆斯·布朗的真实身高究竟是多少而大打出手，最终矛盾激化演变成枪击事件，导致一名73岁的老人中枪身亡。罗根感叹为了一个完全无关紧要的明星身高问题争吵至杀人，实在荒唐透顶。
- 詹姆斯·布朗曾因有人擅自使用其私人洗手间而持枪引发高速追车警匪枪战。
- 新闻记录显示曾有男子因争论詹姆斯·布朗的真实身高发生口角，最终开枪打死一名73岁的朋友。
---
### [02:43:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I&t=9820s) 新书推广与尾声告别
在节目尾声，罗根向科迪·塔克表达了感谢，称赞他的短视频内容非常精彩，并再次向听众隆重推荐塔克的新书《Where Did That Come From?: The Hidden History of Everyday Words and Phrases》（《这句话从何而来？日常词汇与短语的隐藏历史》）。罗根询问该书是否有推出有声书版本。
塔克回答称目前尚未推出，但正紧锣密鼓地制作中。他特别致谢了负责全书版面设计的卡莉（Carly），赞扬她让实体书呈现出一种精致的复古质感。卡莉的丈夫是喜剧演员KP·伯克（K.P. Burke），平时也在网络上创作长篇历史解说视频。塔克表示，卡莉正在负责有声书的技术制作，而罗根随即确认必须由塔克本人亲自朗读录制，否则观众会感到非常失望。塔克保证必定由自己亲自献声。最后，两人在轻松愉快的气氛中互道感谢并向观众告别。
- 科迪·塔克的新书名为《Where Did That Come From?: The Hidden History of Everyday Words and Phrases》。
- 新书视觉装帧由卡莉完成，有声书正在制作中并确定由科迪·塔克亲自录制配音。
## Video description
Cody Tucker is the host of "The Cody Tucker Show" and "Rewind and Repeat with Cody Tucker" podcasts and author of "And Now You Know: Mind-Blowing Stories from History and Pop Culture." His new book, "Where Did That Come From?: The Hidden History of Everyday Words and Phrases," is available now.
https://a.co/d/0buvONu8
https://www.youtube.com/@thecodytuckershow
https://www.thecodytucker.com
Perplexity: Download the app or ask Perplexity anything at https://pplx.ai/rogan.
Get a free welcome kit with your first subscription of AG1 at https://drinkag1.com/joerogan
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[Source](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfe0Uthvv8I)
Original transcript
[0:00] Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out! The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day! Cody, what's happening? Hey man. Good to see you brother. I know. You wrote a book. Look at you, you're a fucking author. A second one. I never thought of it. Oh, is it your second book? Yeah, I remember last time I was here for a book. Oh, that's right. That's right. Where did that come from? Yeah. I still, I mean, I marvel at your Instagram page. Your Instagram page is excellent. It's one of the best ones I follow, for sure. But I just marvel at the fact that you're constantly able to create content, like these non sequitur, very bizarre facts and strange coincidences. Like, how the fuck are you doing this? Dude, I read so much. And I'm a pretty quick reader. Like, I've always been very fast, like a good skimmer. And, yeah, I just, like, all day, every day. That's all I do. So you read, and then you go, oh, that one's crazy. And you just write it down? Yeah, so, like... Whatever I'm reading, like I say I'm reading a book on Ben Franklin, anything that comes up that I'm like, oh, that's pretty interesting. I don't think a lot of people know about that. Highlight. And then I... go through piece altogether, check and make sure it's all, you know, real. And yeah. And then dive into, uh, other things off of that, like kind of spiderweb out and go down rabbit holes. I'm in a perpetual rabbit hole. Constantly. All day, every day. Rabbit holes. What is that like? What? It can get weird. Yeah. I mean, there's some times where I'm like, ew, I hope... I hope the FBI is enjoying what they're seeing. Good Lord. I didn't want to be here today, but... Yeah, it can get a little odd. Yeah. Yeah, because you're constantly like researching crimes. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Murders, weird things that have been done to people over time. Speaking, you know, the Debbie Harry story. Whoa. That she thinks may have. I don't know if I'd buy it. Really? Tell people what it is. The Ted Bundy one. So Debbie Harry believes that sometime in the early 70s or late 60s, that she was picked up by a man driving a Volkswagen Beetle, and that that car didn't have indoor handles, and she escaped, and she believes that it was Ted Bundy. But if you look it up on a timeline of events, he was not anywhere around there. at that time. So it could just be another guy doing creepy things. When there's one, there's many, you know. Yeah, I'm sure that's not the first time a guy's... Figured out a way to close off the handles on the inside of his car won't be the last trap people. Yeah, I'm working on it right now Ha I watched a video today where this young man in India robbed a guy with scopolamine and What the hell's that? Okay. I'm so glad I get to tell you something that you don't know. Oh, yeah. I don't – if it's science-related or anything like that, I'm probably not going to know anything. Well, it's crime-related as well. Okay. Scopolamine is a drug that is – I guess it's in the class of deliriant. And if inhaled, you literally become like a prisoner to whoever gave you the drug. Like you become like a zombie. Really? Yeah. It is like a zombie drug. Not only is it real. But it's also the active ingredient in anti-seasickness medication. So when you take Dramamine. I'm the captain now. Dramamine Look at me That's what he was doing Scopolamine is one of the ingredients in Dramamine Oh. So I don't know. I guess it's a very small dose, but in a larger dose. So this guy, this young guy came up behind this guy in India and he put it on his neck. And the guy touches his neck and then all of a sudden he just keeps touching his neck. And the guy just takes his bag off of him, takes his wallet out of his pocket, takes his phone out of his other pocket and walks off. And the guy's just standing there, just helpless. Lost and helpless. That's the weirdest thing I've ever heard? Yeah, it's like... That's so crazy. God. What do they refer to it as? Devil's breath? Devil's breath. That's right. In Columbia, the drug dealers use it to force people to do things. Yeah, okay. They blow it in their face. And when you inhale it, it's like they literally just come up to you and... Where have I seen that in a movie? There was a zombie movie a long time ago. Serpent and the Rainbow? That's right. Oh, I love that movie. Yeah, great movie. I'm so glad we just brought that up. I forgot about that movie. Yeah, Surfing the Rainbows. I used to watch that all the time when I was a kid. Like five or six. Well, they think that that might be a part of the whole zombie lore that Skopala may use. Yes, okay. Oh, that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
[5:00] Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah, it's apparently like – see if there's any videos of people getting dosed with scopolamine. Because I didn't know that people did it to rob people. And this guy in India, he just like – Touch some of it on this guy's neck right he was standing behind him and he was looking at the guy's bag and you know looking the guy over the guys waiting across the street and he just I reaches and touches the side of his neck with it. So it's potent as hell. Potent as hell. Man. Well, he didn't go unconscious. Yeah, yeah. But he immediately was just like, what the hell? And then he's just like, just... just delirious, just just moving around weird. And the guy just took a shit. I wonder where you buy that. That's a good question. Hmm. Maybe you shouldn't search that either. There are patches of it. Well, I'll search for it or something. What's that, Jane? There's patches of it for motion sickness. Yeah, motion sickness. But, like, how many patches do you have to take before someone could just steal your wallet? That's a question. Do you have to, like, mummify them? Right. I know, right? What do you have to do? Those are mummies. Yeah. Yeah. I, uh... Is there any videos of people under the hip-hop on Twitter? All the videos I'm looking on YouTube are literally a little, like... the patches and like people Putting them on their neck, there is a Vice documentary from 14 years ago. But it's in Columbia. Boy, 14 years ago, Vice was the shit. Oh, man. Did you ever watch The Cannibal Warlords of Liberia? Liberia, yeah. Yeah, about General Butt Naked. Yes. Oh, my God. I've recommended that probably more than I've ever recommended anything in my life. It's so terrifying that they did that. And that guy just... He became a preacher and all is forgiven. He was eating kids. Yeah, eating their hearts. Yeah. Saving the heart because it's invincible. Cutting it right out of their chest while they're alive and then eating their heart. And then he found Jesus and all is forgiven. Yeah, well, I mean, I guess that is what it says in there. What a great place to live, though, in terms of actual real forgiveness. Very few places give you that kind of leeway. Oh, you found Jesus? But didn't he, he caught a guy serving human meat. Yes. Like a guy was serving it like on a stick, you know? While he was a preacher. Right, right. He tasted it and was like, uh-oh, I know this taste. Yeah. And reported them. Yeah. And it was true. Yeah, a guy was killing people and just, you know, turning them into like a dish. Lunch counter. A dish kebab. Yeah, Liberia is a fucked up place. So do you know the story of Liberia? about James Monroe? Or is that Liberia or is that Libya? No, Liberia. Liberia was like a colony that was going to be, you know, like... take basically all slaves back to this spot. And that's why the capital is Monrovia, because it was named after James Monroe, the president. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, it was literally founded with chaos. Yeah. Yeah, because we completely... Screw that one up. We fucked that whole country up. Yeah, what a shock. And then that general butt naked guy would literally take his fucking clothes off fully naked and run into battle with an AK-47. And a machete. Yeah. Normally you'd just use the machete. Whew. Yeah. I don't think it would have the same effect if I did that. Butt naked? Yeah. With a machete? No, I don't think everybody is. Well, that's probably true. Actually, yeah, I'd probably be even more effective than now. It's a lot of... A lot of fear. A lot of fear coming off of you. A lot of meat. A lot of meat. Yeah, a lot of meat. AK-47. Not a lot of speed, though. Not a lot of speed. Actually, I'm faster than you would imagine. A lot of momentum. A lot of momentum. Oh, yeah, once I start, I can't help you stop. I mean, no, I'm faster than you think, you know, all jokes aside. Do you run? Well, if I have to. But how do you know then? When was the last time you had to run away from something? So you know how when you're not running, you're not moving, you're storing energy. Okay. Right? You know, like there's kinetic energy and potential energy. Wait a minute. This is all I know about science. It really is about this. When you're not moving, you're storing energy? Well, of course you are. Like if you're napping. Well, yeah, because if you're doing something, you're expelling energy. Right. Correct. So you must be storing some whenever you're doing nothing. Like if I eat and do nothing, I'm building up energy that's ready to go. Well, I've been doing that for about 15 years. So the amount of energy I have stored up is... Probably second to none. I don't think that would... work in a study I think if you did a study, I think they'd probably have some other explanations as to what's happening when you just sit still. I paid the right person the results I wanted. That's true. That's what's crazy. Yeah, I know. When you find out that we had one of these guys that was on our podcast that was a litigator for these – lawsuits against pharmaceutical drug companies. And he's explaining how pharmaceutical drug companies do their peer-reviewed studies. Oh, I'm sure that's... Oh, it's so crazy. So first of all, there's no transparency. So like, say if you have a drug that you want to release, you could do 10 studies and eight of them show this is
[10:00] complete bullshit. But one or two of them show just some sort of statistically significant improvement in something because you've kind of manipulated all the different controls in the study to make it. Then, you get, once you have this, If it's peer-reviewed, the scientists do not get to look at the actual data. They get to look at... The... pharmaceutical drug companies scientists version Of what the study was. Okay. So they only get to use. What they're like. So if they have scientists. That perform this study. Then these scientists submit a report. And then that report gets reviewed. By peer. It gets peer reviewed. Not the actual data. Okay. So like no one ever gets to see the actual study. So that's one of the reasons. That they can say crazy things. Like it's 100% effective. Right. In stopping death and illness. So when they say it's 100% effective. You know how they say that. So if you have one person in the control group or one person in the vaccine group or the medication group and – that person dies. And then you have a control group where two people die. Well, why? 100% more. died in the control group where they didn't get the medication. So that means it's 100% effective. I'm not bullshitting. Oh, boy. Isn't that wild? Boy, to reach that kind of... Sociopathy. That's amazing. That's sociopathy at a... where you're delivering medication that could potentially kill people. And that's how you get things like Vioxx. Yeah. See, that's the job I need. Because I'm very good at that kind of thing. Moving words around. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I can make all kinds... I mean, I've... I've been hired at every job I've ever applied to with zero experience in that field. And it was just because I lied. Really? Yeah. What kind of jobs have you had? Oh, it's nothing crazy. I've never been a doctor or anything. I mean, it was working at an eyeglass place or a movie theater. Like, hey, I've worked at movie theaters for years. So I've never, no. I just lie. Well, in movie theater, no one's going to get hurt. Well, no, I've never worked in a position where people... I did work in a pharmacy. I guess that could get people hurt. Did you say he had a degree? No, I said I was on my way to getting one, which I guess technically is true. Sure. Start tomorrow. You're on my way. A point where he can then lie about a fake operation where he steals $150 million. So he faked a college degree and he faked his military service and got into the CIA and was a senior CIA official. How? How? Well, they didn't check. They did the Cody Tucker. No, he just didn't keep a straight face. I mean, he kept a straight face. That's all you got to do. That guy's wild. What a wild fella he must have been. Please tell me there's some cocaine involved in here somewhere. Oh, there has to be. He's got luxury watches, 35 luxury watches, two BMWs. Well, there's your answer. to the cocaine question. Private charter flights, he spent $1.8 million. Woo! Oh, yeah. Luxury Florida real estate. In Palm Beach. But also he's just got caught. There's no way he came up with this out of a vacuum and just was like, I got an idea. I can take advantage of the CIA in this cool way. Right. I feel like I can do it. Well, there's no way he's the only one. That's what I mean. Well, that's where all those stories about the dude from the Tom Cruise movie, what the fuck's his name again? Georgia? No, the coke dealer. Barry Seals. Thank you. Barry Seals. Was that American? Yes. The Mena, Arkansas story. This guy was working for the CIA, going down to Columbia, getting cocaine, flying it into Mena, Arkansas, dropping it off. and uh... You know, he got busted with it, and then Bill Clinton had him released. That's in the movie. Well, I mean, yeah. Yeah, I think that was his MO quite a bit. Well, I think the CIA and I think probably a lot of the big government organizations. Is this the guy's gold? This is the gold and the cash he had in his house. He had like $3 million in cash and $40 million in gold bars or so. It looks fake. Like, it just looks like a movie. It looks like a prop. Yeah. Well, it's also like the perfect box. Is that how they found it or is this how the government stored it? Probably how they stored it and then took a picture of it. Because those look like government pelican boxes. Yeah. I mean, maybe it was the ones he bought because I don't know. I feel like if I had that, I'd probably store it pretty nicely. Right. I'd have LED lights around it and shit. I'd take off all my clothes and dance in front of it. Oh, yeah, yeah.
[15:00] Those could be ones in there and I'd still do that. It'd be like Pulp Fiction. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like old light. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 30 watches, many of which were Rolexes. Well, congrats. There's a plug for Rolex. 22026 BMW Alpinas. Those are the really nice ones. Woo. Woo. He's scheduled to be sentenced January 28, 2027, faces a maximum penalty of 20 years in prison. Three years of supervised release... forfeiture, restitution, and a fine. A fine. Yeah. Meanwhile, they should probably rehire him and go, hey, buddy, how'd you do this? I feel like that's worth it. 20 years? You get to live that life? Oh, he probably had a ball. I wonder how long he was doing it for. No, it didn't really say that, did it? I mean, even if it was like 10 years, you know, 10 years of awesomeness versus 20 years of prison, I feel like is a fair trade. He probably would have never gotten that awesomeness without that crime. So you got it. And then like maybe he goes to like a fairly I mean, it's not like he did violent crimes. He's probably not going to go to the worst kind of prison. No, no, no, no, no. Not going to go to a Supermax. Uh, they'll probably put him in some medium security where he gets to read and go do exercises. Yeah. He could take courses. The Martha Stewart prison. Yeah. Or the fucking Glenn Maxwell prison. Oh yeah. She's kind of in the same prison, right? Yeah. That's probably, yeah. End of somewhere like that. I think I would do it. Isn't she in the same prison as that Elizabeth Holmes lady? the Theranos lady? Hilarious. Oh, I can't wait to see that. A sex trafficker and a lady who lied about blood tests. I haven't seen the documentary. It's not out yet, right? I don't think... It comes up this week. Okay. I cannot wait. He's great. Oh, he's excellent. He's amazing, which I didn't really know about him until pretty recently, so I've been doing kind of a deep... dive into just his old stuff on the show. He's amazing. He's hilarious. Just so clever. The way he's holding his gaze with her in that that little clip. It's just her face is just wild. You got to just, you know, like we all have empathy for people. I mean, I don't think she killed anybody. So the thing is, here's the problem. When you're dealing with health stuff and you're lying about health tests, you could have killed people. Because there could have been a guy who had a condition. And the condition was not revealed by your Fagazi blood test. Right. And if he had gone to a real doctor, like a Quest Diagnostics and get the whole thing done, they would have said, oh, geez, we have to get you in and we have to do some further tests. Oh, it looks like this is elevated. We have some medication. You're going to be OK. He could have, you know, like there could be some people that took those tests that wound up not not knowing about cancer that they had. There could have been a bunch of things where people actually did die. So I take that back. could have told people that they had a bad disease, horrible disease, and then they are in deep despair. They go to get a follow-up and find out they never had it, and now they have a new lease on life. All right, let's talk about AG1 Pro for a second because it's one of the smartest things you can add to your routine. It's just one scoop, once a day, multivitamins, probiotics, superfoods, all in there. Plus, it's got enhanced support for muscle strength and recovery built right into it. And what really makes AG1 Pro so special is the creatine. It's a highly studied compound. I'm talking over 500 peer-reviewed studies here. more. AG1 Pro is one daily supplement with everything you need to help you tackle whatever life throws at you, including the cooler season. Go to drinkag1.com slash Joe Rogan and for a limited time, get a free immune support bundle, including a bottle of omega-3 fish oil and vitamin D tossed in with your first subscription order of AG1 Next Gen or AG1 Pro backed by a 90-day AG1.com slash Joe Rogan. I don't think that happened. I don't think those fucking tests found anything. I think there are. I listened to there's an excellent. podcast. You know, there's podcasts like this one where obviously we didn't even talk before we came in here. We just sat down, shoot the shit. I know you, you know me, we're going to have fun. But then there's other podcasts that are like really well produced, like Radiolab, which is like a super well produced, or like Dan Carlin's Hardcore History, where he takes months to prepare for each episode. We're barely doing the same thing. I'm not really, do, but they had one, I think it's called the dropout.
[20:00] And I forget who produced it, but it's all about the Elizabeth Holmes story from the beginning of Theranos to her scammy ex-boyfriend, who was also the dropout. ABC Audio. It's excellent. I can't recommend it enough. It's fucking really good. And it just goes into long detail about what was going on and how much they knew it was bullshit. about what was wrong with them. It didn't work. And they got people, big investors. I think Warren Buffett... He might have dumped 100 million in there. Wow. These people dumped big money in. One lady dumped 150 in there. 150 million? Yeah, and that money's gone. So that lady, when she gets out, her life is in danger. You know, she's she's fucked. Oh, I would do horrible things to people for far less money. One hundred and fifty million. And you find out the problem is it's like. It seemed like such a great story. You have this woman who's a super genius, basically the female Steve Jobs. She even dresses like him. And she is the most successful self-made woman ever. In history. She was worth $9 billion at one point in time. If only. Crazy. Yeah. It's a crazy story. It is amazing. I mean, just what a horrible human being. But it's also just like Jamie said. Like, how did it get that far? Like Jamie said with the CIA guy. How the fuck did you fake all those things? How did you fake your military career? How did they not check that? Yeah. I feel like oversight is much more... prevalent than what people think. Or just lack of oversight. People usually aren't very good at their jobs just in general. Anytime you work with somebody you realize, oh, none of us know what we're doing here. And I think that doesn't stop at a certain level. I think most people are just barely able to do their job. Especially in government. Oh, in government. I mean, good Lord. The problem is a lot of these jobs don't need to exist. That's one of the weird statistics about California. When California is experiencing this mass exodus, its government grew substantially. Substantially. So they're creating jobs. This administration has created over 100,000 jobs. They don't tell you how many of those are completely unnecessary government jobs. And so to justify those government jobs, they have to do all kinds of crazy things like come up with new regulations. to enforce new laws and tell you it's to protect clean air or clean water or the environment or climate change. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, if you can make your own jobs, I mean, you can have an endless supply of jobs. Sure. If you are running a government and you decide to regulate some particular aspect of society and then hire a bunch of people to oversee that, then you have new jobs. Yeah, you have an entire committee. Yeah. And everybody in that committee has their – it's just a pyramid scheme. Exactly. Which really is. It's like multilevel marketing, but the thing you're selling is even more bullshitty than what most MLMs are selling. Well, it's even scarier because a lot of these bullshitty things, they sell it to the general public under the guise, under this premise that you're going to help people who are in need. Like the homeless situation in California where they've burned through $24 billion and Gavin Newsom vetoes an audit of it because what they'll find out is that money probably went to a bunch of nonprofits and probably went to a bunch of NGOs and there was probably a bunch of people that were executives that got paid money. Oh, yeah. High six-figure salaries working there. And they have no incentive whatsoever to fix this problem. No. You got a nice house in Santa Monica. You got a mortgage. You're driving around in a Lexus. Why would you fix that? No, people don't police themselves typically once they get to a certain level. I think the average person does. They choose to maybe drive the speed limit even if there's not a cop around or whatever. But I think once you get to a certain level when there's that much money involved, yeah, you'll usually just kind of do whatever the hell you want. Especially if you're in government. Yeah, that's amazing. Or you're in the CIA. Because you're the guy that is going to stop you. Yeah. So like if – oh, you mean I'm the guy who's supposed to bust me? I don't think so. the intelligence agency, and you've got a closet in your house filled with gold, gold, And $100 bills and cocaine. That'd be nice. You've got 30 Rolexes. Yeah. You're balling out of control. Yeah. I'm not slowing that down for nothing. Why would you slow down? No, no. They probably feel like, okay, I'm going to make one big score and then I'm going to get out.
[25:00] Yeah. Oh, that's yeah. Yeah. It's heat. Yeah. This is our last one. You know, Michael Douglas was in here yesterday. I heard it was great. And one of his crazy stories was his dad. You know, when he turned 18, his dad basically said, look, I'm going to write you a check for $10,000. And then that's it. You're cut off. And so the way he fund and he was like, but I have a I have student loans. I have this. So the way he funded his education is he was smuggling marijuana. Like huge suitcases. And this is pre-TSA. So he's literally like coming into the country with suitcases filled with marijuana. and he only did it twice He did it twice. How do you do it just twice? That's what I said. I'm like, what willpower you have? But he said, it was so crazy and so nerve wracking. There was so much adrenaline and worried about getting caught. But he made a bunch of money. And that's how he financed everything. That's amazing. He produced, didn't he produce One Float of the Cuckoo's Nest? He did with Credence Clearwater Revival's Money. So the manager of John Fogerty, John Fogerty talked about it on the podcast. That guy was a scumbag and he was like stealing his money. Yeah, he sued him for sounding too much like himself. It was amazing. John Fogerty, you sound too much like John Fogerty. When he left Credence and started his own band, it was like, you sound too much like Credence. Like, bitch, I wrote all the songs. You want me to make a reggae album? Yeah, so Creedence Clearwater Revival's money financed One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. That's amazing. Yeah. I did not know the CCR connection. I knew that he... produced it. I remember watching One Flare of the Cougars and I was like, well, how the hell is Michael Douglas' name on this? And he's not even in it. And then I was like, oh yeah, he wasn't even really an actor at that point. He was trying to act and what was going on was that his father had acquired the rights to the book. Yeah, from Ken Kesey. Yes. Right? Yeah. Yes. Yeah, yeah. So Ken Kesey from the Kool-Aid acid test from the whole Timothy Leary tune in, drop out, all that jazz. Discovering the Grateful Dead. Yeah. Kind of. All those people. So he writes the book, and then they're trying to get it made. They can't get it made. And then Michael Douglas says, give me a shot at this. I think he just becomes enthralled with the project. Quits his job on Streets of San Francisco, which is a hugely popular television show. Right, right. So here's this guy. He's a television actor. And at the same time, he wins an Academy Award for producing a film. That's so crazy. Crazy. It's right up your alley. Yeah. It's your type of – Oh, I love anything like that. I mean – Yeah. Yeah. It's like Mel Brooks produced The Elephant Man, and he wanted his name taken off the credits because he didn't want people to think it was a comedy. He did? Yeah. Wow. So, yeah, like The Elephant Man with John Hurt and Anthony Hopkins. Yeah. Yeah, he produced it because he just loved the story of – it was John Merrick, I think was his name. Yeah. Yeah, just loved his story and wanted to have a movie – have the movie made. Wow. Brooks presents the elephant man people are gonna think it's like you know making fun of him right right right yeah he can't yeah but he still wanted to do it and did it that's cool that's cool that he did that and then took his name off it yeah it's one of my favorite movies of all time Love that movie. It's a great movie. What movie do you think you've seen the most? If you had to guess. Unfortunately, John Wick. Oh, okay. Because I watch it when I work out sometimes. It's great motivation. Oh, okay. It's a good revenge movie. Yeah. It gets you hyped. No, that's a good one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Just curious. Yeah, but it's not like, I don't think it's the best movie ever. What do you think it's the best movie ever? Like if an alien came down and was like, I want to see one movie. To know what y'all are about. You know, I don't think I have a favorite movie. But one of the movies that I've seen, a modern movie that I've seen... multiple times is Ex Machina. because I feel like that is... I think that's the future. I really do. I feel like a version of that is in our future. And this is a film that came out – Was Ex Machina like 2017, 18? It was earlier in that, like 11. Was it? Yeah, yeah. 2011, 2013 maybe. 2014. 2014, yeah. So when that film came out, I remember very distinctly going, oh my God, this is going to happen. This is not science fiction. This is just – they're just predicting the future. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Actually, it says it released in 2015. Oh, okay. Oh, okay. Oh, it wasn't released in America first? Well, it's not an American film. I mean, it's in English, but like... 2014 here and then here it says USA 2015. Interesting. So it just was released probably in Cannes or something. Yeah, at the end of the year or something. Right. Yeah, because in Cannes, you know,
[30:00] They'll release it during that film festival and technically it'll be a phenomenal, phenomenal fucking movie. It's so good. Yeah, she's amazing. Alicia McCann. She's incredible. She's incredible, and you love her. You love her, and she's a robot. And the – spoiler alert – the heartless way that she leaves that guy trapped in that room to starve to death. Yeah. It's just like, whoa. It has nothing. There's nothing in there. It's all fake. It's very Edgar Allan Poe. Yeah. The cask of Amontillado leaves him behind the brick wall. But it's also – there's these weird – um, Like the what was his name Oscar Isaac? Who's phenomenal as well? Yeah, who plays the super genius guy? Like there's something about like that super genius character is what we're all dealing with today like we that wasn't a concern amongst the general public in 2015 we weren't thinking about AI no we're in thinking about the idea that someone could could literally have super intelligence and also control the access to data that people get, be able to curate the data, all the stuff that we're seeing with Google and Facebook and AI and OpenAI and all these different companies. That was – I mean it was like they predicted it brilliantly. Yeah. It's like her. That's a great one that kind of predicts how people have gone with their AI, people developing relationships with their AI, like the chat GPT system or whatever. It's very weird. I mean I guess it's kind of harmless in a sense because what's going to happen? But like it's just not good for people. It's harmless for you because you're an intelligent person and you would realize that this thing is not real and it's blowing me up and blowing smoke up my ass and giving me – therapy. And there's some of those AIs, they'll gaslight you and they'll tell you everything's amazing. You go, boy. You're kicking ass. That's what I need in life. Because in here, it is not that case. It's not the case. You're killing it, buddy. So no, I use my chat GPT to make me feel good sometimes. Have you pump you up? Yeah, just like, am I alright? Do you instruct it? Like, what kind of language you like it to use? No, I think it's just figured me out. just talk like Yeah, talking short. words and sentences and, you know, made me feel all right. So you're going to be okay, Cody. Everything's fine. People love you. Got a lot of followers. Yeah. I mean, I don't want to care about that bullshit, but it's nice to feel good. It is nice to feel good, but they're also convinced you that you should commit suicide. That's happened before too. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think I can be convinced. If I was going to do it, it would be on my own accord. But I'm way too scared for that kind of business. Well, you are, guys, like I asked you, I go, oh, you got an Android phone. And you go, yeah, I'm not a sheep. Amen. Yep. Never will always have had an Android. I mean, that's also just kind of out of laziness because I just don't want to learn something new. Apple is pretty easy to learn. The thing is, though, it is – It's like the Windows, Apple operating system comparison or even Unix and Linux if you're into that. But it's that you are very limited by the hardware. The hardware choices are only this one company. Whereas with Android, you can get all kinds of crazy shit. You can buy unlocked phones from China and use them over here. Yeah. I just, I also just kind of don't care. I don't care about Android or Apple. I don't care what someone has. I mean, I've found that mostly the people who do give a shit are people – it's always people who have iPhones. They're the ones who look down like, you know. Oh, 100%. Like, oh, you have an Android? Yeah. Like, I also don't care. Like, I would be just fine. If I didn't use this as, like, an easy way to read shit, I'd go back to having another damn – you know, a razor, you know, or like some flip phone. Flip phone would be great if it was better at texting. Cause I do like texting friends and it's like texting addresses and information and stuff like that. I think it's important. What was that Paris Hilton phone? The sidekick. Oh, yeah, yeah. The sidekick. Oh, that's what I want. She's in the commercial, I think. Yeah, see, that's what I want. That thing's a brick. Those things are huge. Those things are so big. Yeah, that's what I want. Well, they do have phones that open sideways that are little flip phones, and they have a little tiny keyboard, and you can text on them. They do make those still. I wouldn't mind something like that. Yeah, it's not a bad idea. If you just, like, I know a few comics, like David Tell, he has a flip phone. Yeah. Because they just don't want to be connected to that toxic fucking hive of human thinking. Oh, yeah, I get sucked into... just doom scrolling as the kids say you know all the time yeah yeah we all do and then i uh hate that I do it. The thing that keeps me from doing it is if I don't bring it into the toilet... If I keep the phone outside of the bathroom?
[35:00] Yeah, that book will take care of that business for you. There you go, that's way better. Wrote it based on the length of the average dump. Did you? Really? Yeah, well, I... Calculated it? Well, just, you know, roughly. I mean, if you read the whole book, it takes you a dump, you need to go to a doctor. Oh, no, no, no, no. I mean, like, well, yeah. Well, some people just like their alone time. Your legs are going to be numb. Yeah, no, like, if you, you know, each little section... For the average reading speed is equal to like the average dumped length So you just read that take a dump and you learn something and forget forget forget it immediately. No, that's smart How did I mean I must have asked you this when you first came on but I don't remember the answer. How did you start doing this? had a podcast just me blabbering about nothing. And, uh, at the end I would like end it with like a, just a fun story from like the past, you know? called like Half-Assed History. And I would just end it that way and then started clipping it because one of my friends was like, you should just clip that little bit. do like a separate thing and started doing that. And then just slowly over time, thanks to people like yourself, it started to kind of take off because you helped out with that quite a bit. And a lot of Brian Simpson actually helped out. a lot like just sharing that he's one of the coolest human beings i love him to death and uh you know greg fitzsimmons is also amazing guy. I just luckily had people see it that helped you know because otherwise i was just doing it for nobody which was fine like i like i just like making stuff and learning stuff and teaching stuff so what has it been like to watch it get so popular yeah Has it been weird? Yeah, I don't really... I think mostly because I live in a pretty small town, and I don't go out ever, really, so like... I don't notice it. Like I'm not getting recognized, you know, and all that kind of business. Right. And I guess I have a few times and it's very weird. Um, but I just only think about it. Like sometimes I'll see like a, Because I don't read comments usually. But I'll see somebody follow me and I'm like, holy hell. Like, that person knows who I am. Like, that's weird. Like, Johnny Knoxville the other day. I was like, oh, my God. Johnny Knoxville. Like, that's, you know, like, that's my Michael Jordan. You know? So, like, whenever I saw this, like, hard, like, you'd be lying if he said, like, that that didn't make you feel, you know, kind of good. He's cool as fuck. Yeah, and I just – so little things like that will happen where I'm like, oh, this is cool. But otherwise, I'm just kind of like living my life, watching Real Housewives and working on videos. You really watch Real Housewives? Oh, every day almost. Yeah. I mean, right now I'm in the throng of the Real Housewives of Salt Lake City, which I would highly recommend. Because there's a lot of Mormon business going on there. Oh, yeah. The Mormon business is fascinating. What a weird little group of people. Apparently there's a lot of and this is not a slight on the Mormon religion. Don't get me wrong, but I I think this is true amongst Catholics as well. But there's a lot, well, probably many religions, a lot of undercover homosexuality. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I'm sure. So a friend of mine, a good friend of mine. is dating a lady. who was in the church from the time she was a young girl, got married when she was 19, And when she was like 35, 36, realized her husband was gay. and uh there's a situation later now they're divorced and the stories she tells the stories you're just like oh my gosh apparently it's just rampant yeah there's a there's actually a little bit of a situation like that i don't realize while i was is there kind of i mean i guess i shouldn't say the guy's gay but um the rumors are uh you know that he is the husband's and I think they go hand to hand in my book. Big fan of Cher. Donna Summer. I'm a big fan of Donna Summer. Well, you're good now, then. Big Rocky Horror Picture Show film. Right, right, right. Yeah, I just... No, you know, and it kind of seems like you might be, I don't know. I mean, you never really know, but I'm sure that is a prevalent thing. I mean, repressed homosexuality and religion is just pretty rampant, I think, across the board. Yeah. Just like Baptists. I mean, I grew up around all Baptists, you know, here like in East Texas. Uh-huh. I knew plenty of kids in school that were, you know. get your queers a $3 bill. And they weren't out. Out and proud. Some of them are now. It's one of the saddest failings of organized religion is the complete absence of embracing gay people. yeah
[40:00] Because you can embrace someone and not embrace, you know, I mean, I guess there is that whole thing of like, well, I embrace you, I don't embrace your lifestyle, which feels like a real slight. But also, like, why not? Here's the thing. It's like, it's the evidence in the Bible, it's all Old Testament stuff, right? Yeah, Leviticus and all that business. Yeah. It's like... There's a bunch of morally abhorrent things that are in there. So why is a man shall not layeth with another man? Like what? Well, and there's also – I mean it's not planting crops together, not wearing – Two different types of cloth. Two different types of cloth. Shellfish. Yeah. You don't see protests outside of Red Lobster. No. I mean you should, but you don't. I mean I just think it's very bizarre. It's bizarre and stupid. and in general. I mean, I'm not against people. I think whatever you want to have that makes you feel good. As long as you're not being an asshole to everybody, then I feel like people should have their own... thing, you know? Um, I would like to bring back like Greek mythology would be cool. I'd go to a temple. Yeah. And worship Zeus and all them people. Yeah. Like, I enjoy that way more. I mean, I've read the Bible a couple times, and it's nice. I'm not. Like, I just don't buy into any of it. Not just Christian. I'm just trying to attack them, but like anybody, really. I think they're trying to tell a story. I think that it... I think it all... I think there's a lot of human influence and there's a lot of stuff in it that people obviously wrote like the stuff about slavery. Yeah. The treating women like second class citizens. There's a lot of stuff in it that seems clearly the work of man. I think the origin of it all is some kind of a documentation of historical events that were incredibly strange. Like you're getting a lot of the Gospels were written long after Jesus was dead and they didn't even know Jesus. They had never met him. And so they're attributing words to him. They're saying – so there's that. And then there's also – like if you get into the Old Testament, like the weird stuff, like the ages of people. Like Moses was like – or Noah. Noah was like 600 years old when he built – Methuselah, who's like I think the oldest person in the Bible, I believe, is Methuselah. I mean, yeah, there's – It's fucking weird. Abraham was like hundreds of years old, I believe. Weird shit. ancient religious stories. It's the Epic of Gilgamesh. Yeah. It's the damn flood. It's the oldest story there is. Yeah. So. Yeah. Yeah, I just... You know, people like now want to have an answer to something. Like, I'm terrified of death. That's the thing I'm most terrified in the world. Really? Yeah. You're not afraid of dying? Oh, dying is terrifying. What if something bad happens? I mean, I don't want to die. What if you go to heck? Go to Heck. What if you end up in Heck? That'd be horrible. Heck is hilarious. You clearly live in the South, sir. I mean, it doesn't sound like fun. No. And it's going to suck that your family's going to miss you. That would bother me the most. See? But it's inevitable. Everyone's afraid to die. No one's afraid to sleep. But you don't shut up every night. You shut off. Yeah, I'm awake. You just hope you wake up. But do you? Yeah, I'm here right now. Are you in the same timeline? Are you in the same timeline? Do you know if it's even the same life that you're living? Yes. Yes. I don't know if that's true. Yeah, because the plan I made yesterday is happening right now. Right, but that's according to your memory. Oh, geez. I came here. When you are out, you're gone. When you wake up, you have a pre-existing selection of ideas and memories and all sorts of different things that you just assume you've always been on the same path. But it's not necessarily true. I like if you believe in the multi well there's no evidence, but if you believe in the there's also a What evidence do you have currently that subatomic particles exist? There's a lot of weirdness to the world, the quantum world, quantum connections and the multi-worlds theory. If you do – like Philip K. Dick believed – he had a very strange idea about quantum. reality. I think Philip K. Dick believed that We are in a computer simulation. And he believed this in the 1960s. And he had this very strange idea that decisions you make, conscious decisions, alter the past. *punch* I don't... I don't know what kind of drugs he was on when he was writing all that stuff. Are you a big dick fan? Not a huge.
[45:00] Dick fan. Sorry. I'm a medium dick fan. Sizable. Yeah, I mean, I think he wrote some amazing stuff, but he was, you know, one of those really very important odd thinkers that have sort of flavored our culture. Yes. Where you get to. read these very unusual takes on reality like Dan George's dream of electric sheep. Hunter Thompson. There's a lot of people like that that have just written wild things that just make you just rethink the world that we're living in. Yeah, I'm a big Hunter Thompson fan. Yeah, just all that. Yeah. Like, sci-fi has never really interested me as much as I know it interests a lot of people. I'm not a big Star Wars fan or Star Trek, but I do love, you know, some things like Blade Runner or stuff like that. I'm just only thinking about the future. You don't like thinking about it? I hate the future. How come? I don't know. Because it hasn't happened. I don't know. I don't know what to expect. Like, I don't like change at all. I hate change. Really? Just personally? same. I eat the same thing for breakfast, wear the same clothes every day. Really? Yeah. I'm a creature of comfort. Interesting. Like, uh, Like if I was a turtle in a terrarium, I'd be happy as could be. Like, where's if somebody just found me? You're a house cat. I'm a house cat. Oh, without a doubt. That's what Edward Snowden calls himself a house cat. Oh, me, yeah, me and Eddie are like, yeah, one in the same. I mean, when I asked him about his life in Russia, I said, you know, what is it like? Like, do you feel isolated? He goes, I'm basically a house cat. I just need a computer and internet connection. I'm happy. He's not missing anything going outside there. Jesus. Yeah. No thanks. Well, they might kidnap him and send him to the front lines. Like, If you go out there, if you're of age. Would not like, yeah, no thank you. No, I'm just a big indoor cat, and I like my routine. Every day, same routine. Yeah, I just don't like change. So the thought of the future. Oh, the future is too much change. Oh, no, and a flying car. You know, like I don't like too many LED lights. When the hot robot assistants get created, are you going to get one? Well, I'm not necessarily against that. I mean, geez. I could be swayed a little. But that's ex machina. That's what it is. That's what we're dealing with. I just like the past. I love the past more. Why is that? I mean, one, it's real. As far as I'm concerned, the future isn't real because it hasn't happened. Right. It's just speculation. It's speculation. And I love seeing where we were and how we got to where we are now. So, like... And also just like what people were doing 2,000 years ago, you think, like, how the hell did they come up with that 2,000 years ago? Marcus Aurelius or somebody who the way they thought... like how it is the it's Perfectly maps up to now where like that same sort of stoicism. Yeah, I think that's... can do wonders for people today. And he was thinking that shit 2000 years ago. Oh, unquestionably. I think all that kind of stuff. And even like, not that far back, but like the Victorian period, I think it's fascinating. I think, Like when you travel around the U.S. knowing like, well, what did this city or this place I'm standing at right now, what did it look like? 150 years ago. Like, what did it smell like? That's why it didn't smell the way it smells. Yeah. And... Yeah I don't know. I like thinking about stuff like that. Well, it's absolutely fascinating because – I mean, just think... about the timeline, the known timeline of human history. Have you been to Rome? Have you ever seen like the Coliseum or any of those places? No, I've never been out of the U.S. Don't need to do that. You don't need to? No, I don't know. No need? I can just look at it in a book or watch a documentary. I agree to a certain extent. Well, no, I don't. So I think watching it is certainly fascinating. I love documentaries. But there's something about being there. Brian Morarescu. Do you know who he is? Uh-uh. He's a scholar and he wrote a great book called The Immortality Key that is all about the Eleusinian mysteries in ancient Greece, which I believe Marcus Aurelio participated in. Right, right, right. And When Marcus Aurelius participated in that, I'm most certain that that flavored some of his writings, particularly meditations. Because there's a lot of the stuff in there that seems very psychedelically inspired. Like the wisdom of this guy. Okay, this guy is running Rome. Yeah, what is one of the most fucking powerful armies the world has ever known conquering everything and this guy is essentially like a psychedelic bard? Right, it's very strange. It's a very like his writings on forgiveness and and and and truth and and recognition
[50:00] I sing your thoughts and just And you're thinking about, oh my god, this is thousands of years ago this guy wrote this. This is insane. Right. Yeah. And a lot of that, I think, probably came out of those Ellucinian mysteries. But I went with Brian because I was there with my family and Brian happened to be in Greece the same time and met us there. He gave us a tour of Ellucis. So you get to see we were in the actual place where these people have these Ellucinian mysteries and it feels weird. That's pretty cool. And you don't know if it feels weird because you're ascribing all these feelings because in your mind you're like, oh, my God, I'm here. So you're in this heightened state of suggestibility or whatever. I'm sure. Maybe. I'm sure that's a big part of it. Part of it. But it felt weird. Yeah. There's something about being there physically. I haven't been to the pyramids. That's one thing that I must do. That is like on the top of my to-do list is I really have to get there. So I went to the Mayan pyramids. I went to Chichinitza. Oh, Chichu Ninta. Okay, gotcha. And the Yucatan, it's fucking incredible. It's so bizarre. Yes, that would be... I'd go there. That's about as far as I'd go. It's a little sketchy now. Yeah, actually, coming down to Austin is about... Pushing it for me, really. Yeah, and I'm only about a four-hour drive. Too much. Yeah. Too crazy. Too many things happening along the way. Too much change. Too much change. Well, Austin is drastically different from, damn, Longview, Texas. I mean, some things are similar, but no, I like a slow-moving place. You know, I just like a – like I'm a slow-moving animal in general. Yeah. So I'm talking, slow, everything. Well, whatever you like, man. That's the beautiful thing about freedom. Find your lane. Yeah. Find what you're into. You know, for you, it's reading a lot of shit and making cool videos. And Real Housewives. And Real Housewives. I can't watch those shows. Why? Because I just don't want to be around those people. And so when I hear them yapping and trying to get all this attention, I'm like, I got to get out of the room. That's the best thing. You aren't in the room. You just get to watch it from your room. I don't know. Maybe I'm an empath. I get secondhand anxiety from these people's lives. Do you like watching confrontations in public? Not your confrontation, but like other people. Like if somebody, two people getting like a fender bender and they get like a little argument. Do you like that? Generally, I don't. I mean, I will watch them if it's happening right in front of me, but I really wish it didn't happen. I'm very averse to, believe it or not, very averse to public violence. Okay, I get that for sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I'm not into violence. I don't want to see somebody get knocked out. I've seen enough videos people have their heads bounce off concrete. Never want to see that ever in my life. I've seen it a lot. Yeah, but I would love watching two people just yell at each other. Yeah, I don't like that because it just leads to, it generally leads to someone hitting somebody. Yeah. This episode is brought to you by ZipRecruiter. We all have little things we do to save ourselves time, like shopping online or paying kids from the neighborhood to rake up all those leaves sitting in the front yard. Or if you're hiring, you rely on ZipRecruiter. They match you with qualified candidates as soon as you post your job. Now that's how you save time. Try it yourself for free at ZipRecruiter.com slash Rogan. It's rated the number one hiring site based on G2. season. Because on top of the qualified candidates, it also shows you the most interested ones first. Save time and meet great candidates sooner with ZipRecruiter. Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. Try it for free at ZipRecruiter.com slash Rogan. That's ZipRecruiter.com slash Rogan. Meet your match on ZipRecruiter. Yeah. Stupidity and especially that kind of stupidity. I think it's really fucking dangerous. I think people engage in it freely as if there's no consequences over things that mean nothing in the long run of your life. But that move that moment of engaging could change your life forever. You can either get killed or kill someone or get killed. irreparably injured or harmed. I mean, I know people that have been beat up and it's completely changed their personality forever. I know a guy that's a vegetable. Because of it. Like, I mean, he's about maybe he's older than me. But, yeah, his mom has to take care of him. Jesus Christ. Yeah, because he got in a fight, got in a fight and head hit the curb. That's it. And there's so many people that that happens to and you never hear about them because they're still alive. They're still alive. You know, so the person doesn't get charged with murder. But meanwhile, you have taken away that guy's life. Oh, without a doubt. It's the equivalent, I think. I mean I mean
[55:00] Technically it isn't, but... It's kind of... odd that I don't enjoy violence because I've seen so much violence. I've probably seen more people get their ass kicked than... Probably there's probably very few people who have ever lived on planet Earth that have seen more people get their ass kicked in me. Oh, I think that's, yeah, without question. Yeah. Like, who else could it be? I mean, I've just been there live for thousands of fights. I've professionally called thousands of fights. on TV. Are there any people who have called more fights? Maybe. Like in other, like, I don't even mean here, like in Japan or like, because that's the only thing I can think of. It's not likely. I've been doing it since 1997. Yeah. So that's when I first started working for the UFC. It was in 1997. I was four years old. Yeah. So... That was my first so that was the first time I started working for the UFC and then continually since 2001 so 25 years of calling fights and at one point time I was doing like 20 plus events a year so I was on the road like every other week. Yeah doing UFC fights So I don't think there's very many people that and then on top of that and all the fights that I watch. not live. So a big part of what I do, I take the commentary job very seriously. And even if I didn't, I'm just a giant fan of combat sports. I don't – you think it's because I like violence. What I really like is high-level problem solving, and that's what it is. It's like very – Intense very I call it high-level problem solving with dire physical consequences like it's just like an insane game that these guys are playing and there's incredible amount of technique involved strategy determination and willpower to get yourself into shape Intelligence in order to formulate the correct sort of style and game plan to be successful as a fighter and And so I watch a lot of fights. I watch a lot of like jujitsu matches. I watch a lot of kickboxing fights. I watch a lot of fights. So it's just in terms of like how many people have watched more people get their fucking ass kicked. Probably I'm at the top. 1% of people that have ever lived. Yeah. I got a number for you. What is the number? As of 2024, it was 30... $2.50. 3250 what? Fights that I've called yeah, that's just enough called so 3,250 fights that I've called just professionally and then watching it and I probably watched... That again is, At least. Yeah. At least. At least. So it's probably 7,000-ish. Yeah, easily. Yeah. Easily, maybe more. Yeah. Because sometimes I'll watch... Two three in a day every day. I watch them in the gym all the time. I'm always watching So it could be up to ten ten thousand. Yeah, so I don't like violence believe it or not What I can understand that though cuz like You know, it's not that you're loving seeing a guy get the shit beat out of him. It's loving seeing how does this guy handle the situation. How does this guy... you know, change his outcome. Like it's looking like it's going to go one way. What's he going to do? I love watching people achieve greatness. Yes. And I think greatness with the highest level of physical consequences in terms of like safety, obviously war is number one, right? Get past. And then there's, you know, first responders, police officers, SWAT teams, that kind of stuff. But outside of that, in a controlled environment where people are preparing for a very specific contest, the most thrilling and exciting thing in all of sports. And so that's my perspective on it, but I don't, like people getting violent on the street it bothers the shit out of me I hate it yeah well the risk reward too is different I mean the risk in the in an octagon or in a ring is drastically different when you have me a medical team I mean not that things can't happen but yeah versus a parking lot oh there's that and then what's to stop some other guy to come up and just boot this person right in the face and you see it all the time right you don't see that in the UFC I mean so you're seeing controlled chaos in a sense, or it's not even really chaos, but we're seeing a controlled, like we're both agreeing to do this. We're both at the right weight, like blah, blah, blah. Like it's, it's different. Like whenever I watch, you know, whenever I watch a fight, Like I don't think of it in nearly the same way because I feel sick to my stomach whenever I watch people get in fights in real life. Like real – I don't feel like that watching – I feel like I'm watching two athletes competing. They hug each other after the fight. I feel the same way whenever I watch a football game because I'm a big football fan. That's my number one. And I hate seeing people get concussed.
[60:00] Hate it. There you go. Yeah, I hate it too. Yeah, I don't want to see somebody get helmet to helmet. This person can't even walk. It doesn't know where they are. But I love seeing a big hit at the right time where you're making this amazing defensive play because you are two athletes who have agreed. And you're at the height of your… You know? I love watching people do things that are insanely difficult to do. That's what I love. Have you seen that? There's this guy who's a Russian gymnast who figured out some new way to do an iron cross. He does an iron cross inverted. Yeah. The hell's an Iron Cross? An Iron Cross is one of the most difficult moves in gymnastics where they're on the rings and they hold their body up like that with their arms out. It takes like insane strength. Yeah, Vince Vaughn in old school when he's smoking the cigarette doing it. Really? You've never seen old school? With Vince Vaughn and Will Ferrell. Does he do that? Yeah, I think. Oh, it's probably CGI, right? It's fake. Well, I'm not saying he's really doing it, but in the movie, yeah, yeah, yeah. So this Russian guy has figured out a way to do it. upside down. So he's literally doing a handstand, and he stretches out. Watch this. This is it? Okay. Watch this cat. This is crazy. Oh my God. The amount of strength that it takes to do that is fucking preposterous. he's the first guy to ever do it. If I started today, how long do you think it would take for me to be able to do that? It would take you 50 or 60 years. Oh, I got time, dude. Well, you would have to lose an insane amount of weight. You'd have to get on steroids. There'd be a lot of things that have to happen to change your physique. You'd have to... Done, done. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You have to change your... You got to get coaches. You got to go to Russia. Yeah. that would be that's actually the biggest problem the weight loss and the steroids i can start right now i don't know if this cat figured it out on his own if it was something he was thinking can this be done But I'm fascinated by people that are like the first person to figure out that a move can be done. Yeah. Or just the people who can do anything for the first time. What was his name? Bannister, Roger Bannister that ran the mile for the first time, four minutes. Yeah. It had never been done all this time. But then what's crazy is that like the next year there was like six people that ran it. So it's weird how like – like I wonder how many people are going to be doing this. a week from now. Right. Like, Probably a couple at least. Yeah, 100%. There's something about knowing that something's achievable that makes it infinitely easier. Yes. Like weirdly. Or like X Games. I grew up watching the X Games a lot, and you would see a move be done, like a 900, Tony Hawk doing the 900. Now there's like six-year-olds doing 900s. Oh, there we go. It's a nine-year-old, but... Yeah, but still, yeah. It's on the same thought process. I mean, when I was like a – when I was a little kid – Look at that kid. Do them back to back. Bro, imagine if that's your kid doing that. You'd be like, don't get hurt, Billy. Dude, when I was like a little... When did Tony Hawk do that? Was it 99, I think? 99 X-Men? Yeah, it was not that long ago. I remember watching... And it was like It's like you saw Jesus walk on water. Right. Three back to back. And now there's a nine-year-old... Japanese. Nine-year-old Japanese boy does back-to-back 900s. Wow. That's crazy. His first 900 at age seven. I mean, isn't that wild? Like, 1999 is not that long ago. I mean, it is a while, but not that long ago in human history. level of change in that amount of years where it's like an easy thing. That is crazy. That literally is crazy. Boy, that is a rough fucking sport. Those guys get some fucking concussions. Yeah, Tony Hawk. Did you watch his documentary? No. Oh, you should really watch that. Until the wheels fall off, I think is what it's called. It is incredible. Tony Hawk's amazing. I had him on the podcast back in the day. Oh, really? He was great. Really interesting guy. It starts with him trying to land a 900 now, as he's gotten quite a bit older. Just the amount of... just the shit he's eating. Constantly. He can't get it because he's, you know, older and harder to do it. But you still see, like, he's not doing it for anybody. He's not in a competition. He's, like, in his personal... you know, half pipe. Right. And just, but you see it in his eyes, like... Like those skaters have no quit in them. Right. Well, you can't. Yeah, but there's something amazing about that. Yeah. Like I'm a big quitter. I love quitting. I don't know if I love anything more than I love quitting. That's hilarious. It's great. Like when something's difficult, I'm just like, oh, I could just stop. and do something better. That's funny. But those guys don't have that. You and I would be like a funny odd couple show. Oh, yeah. What was it? Oscar and whatever it was. Felix and Oscar. Felix and Oscar. Yeah, yeah. Oh, we probably are the most opposite people. I'm going to be the most opposite person you may have ever had on you. In many ways, but in a lot of ways we're similar.
[65:00] We're interested in history. We're interested in unique facts. Yeah. Obviously, that's why I'm a giant fan of your page. Thank you. Yeah, there's a Venn diagram, you know? Yeah. But ours is like, you know, barely touching. Yeah. Well, I'm always interested in like what turns people down certain paths, like what makes them go one way or another. Yeah. You know? I mean, I think anyone could go down any path. It could have happened. I think it happens oftentimes very young, and then you start building momentum towards very specific areas. That's a big thing I have with anything pop culture, so like movies, music, and remembering dates, and when did this movie come out, when did this album come out? It's because my dad would trivia, give me tests to try to impress my uncles. He was like, Cody, who sings blah, blah, blah? I had five years old, and I would just name them. Right. But I love the rush from knowing something that it impressed people. Because otherwise, I mean, I wasn't impressing people in any other way. So I was like, I've got to do something. Because my brother was amazingly good at baseball. I don't have that. So I was like, well, what's my thing? Facts Facts yeah Knowing random stuff And I like the feeling of when you tell somebody something weird that they never knew and you kind of see them and like get like they like oh my God I never knew that So I like that feeling. A very impressive quality. Like I love talking to people and they can tell me things that I had no idea. I'm like, what? Yeah. Really? Like Brian Simpson's great at that. Yeah. Brian Simpson is a warehouse of interesting information. Like he and I, like anytime we find something like really fascinating online, we send it to each other and he's just doing that all day long. Yeah. See, that's my kind of thing. I just, I want to know everything. It's one of the reasons why I want, I don't want to ever die. It's one of the things I'm scared about death is that like, yeah, but what about all this stuff? I'm not going to know, which I know it's foolish. Like there's no way I could ever learn 1% of everything. If technology came along that could extend your lifespan literally indefinitely. Sign me up. Would you be in? Yes. I don't know why people say, like, oh, if I make it to 90, kill me. You're a pussy. Like, I mean, what are you talking about? I want to live for, yes, what's that movie with Johnny Depp, Transcendence, I believe, where they put him in the thing and it goes very wrong I don care I would go to Jurassic Park even knowing what happened to all those people all those innocent people Well they probably going to do that eventually Right now they don have dinosaur DNA but I don think that going to be able to stop them from creating a dinosaur I think what they're going to be able to do is use bird DNA and eventually engineer a dinosaur by giving each new iteration very specific traits. Like, that's kind of what they're doing at Colossal Bioworks. Yeah. Where they're bringing back the thylacine, and they're bringing, I mean, they already brought back the dire wolf. Yeah. Oh, right. Okay, so that's who did the dire wolf. Yeah. Oh, right, right, right, right. I went to that. I went to the place where they have them. Really? I saw the dire wolves. My daughter was playing with a four-year, I guess, four-month-old, six-month-old? I think it was like four-month-old puppy, dire wolf puppy, and it's like a puppy. like it gives you kisses it sits in your lap it's wagging its tail cuddles with you but they get to a certain age where you can't do that with them anymore for sure you weren't worried it was going to like disintegrate or like you know turn something like the thing i don't know it opens up my mouth like had to chop your arm off yeah yeah uh no because i i spoke with them before and explain what they doing it mostly they taking these genes from this uh like they got samples from like a 7 year old of a dire wolf They sequenced the genome and they started altering gray wolf genes And next thing you know, they have this thing that is, people say it's not a dire wolf. It's not technically a dire wolf, but that's by our definition. Like what is a dire wolf other than a collection of genes that has the traits of a dire wolf? Well, I don't know. You can decide all you want what it is, but what it is is very different than any other wolf that's ever lived since dire wolves have died. So why isn't it a dire? Why do they think it isn't? They're splitting hairs. I have the head geneticist from – what was her name? Beth Cohen? Was that her name? From Colossal Bioware? Fascinating woman. Brilliant. And she was – Beth Shapiro. and she was explaining how they do it and what the what the what the argument is that it's not a dire wolf and I'm in her camp essentially we've decided like what like all these different animals whether it's chimpanzees cockatoos whatever yeah we've decided
[70:00] decided that this is what it is. But what it really is, is just a collection of genes. They give very specific traits and those traits are passed on by its offspring. And they've managed to engineer an animal that has all of the characteristics of a direwolf, and they look very different. They're all white, and they have a mane. Which is really weird. They have this thick, almost like a lion's mane around, kind of like my golden retriever does. He has a bit of a mane. It's very elegant when he runs his nose. But they look different. They're stouter. They're a thicker, stronger wolf. Okay. Really wild. It's interesting, like... At what point does something become a new species then? Like, what's the difference between a mutation? So, like, this one dog has, you know, or whatever, this one bird has a red beak, but normally they're yellow. Uh-huh. Versus, oh, well, all the ones with red beaks are new species. I've never really understood that. Like... That's a good question. Yeah. Well, it's... Humans decide... you know which is where I mean we have a very specific way of categorizing different species and you know it's like these biologists make these decisions and these distinctions but ultimately nature doesn't give a fuck what you said yeah you know it it has many of these different weird variables and it's up to people to try to figure out like okay well does this is this logical that this is a new species or is this a look at humans Like, look at the differences in humans. Yeah. Like, look at, like... Shaquille O'Neal and, you know, the next step. Caitlyn Jenner. That's the same species. It's very weird. Humans are fucking strange. You have Bobby Lee, and then you have Hulk Hogan. It's like they're very different, but we're all the same thing. If we were something else in the wild, we would assume that these are multiple different species. Yes. Yeah, it's like the, you know, kind of the Neanderthal versus Homo sapien. Look at that guy. Yeah, the little tiny lady. Actually world's tallest person and the world's shortest woman like that's crazy. Which would you rather be? I'm I guess the tall guy, but he's probably in massive pain. He didn't look... He's got a cane. When generally when they're that big they have a tumor on their pituitary gland was a hopper. He's eight foot three Yeah He's probably in agony all the time um... And I don't even know if you could mitigate that with weight training or something, if you could get strong enough so that you can carry that amount of weight and frame. No. Because you're dealing with – I don't think human joints are designed to carry around – that kind of mass and just that height. And also... If you have a tumor in your pituitary gland, things are probably growing the wrong way. Because what it's essentially is like secreting abnormal amounts of human growth hormone constantly. Which is why they get like a protruding. Like Andre the Giant. Yeah, you get like a long Easter Island head. There was a guy that used to fight in MMA named Bigfoot Silva. And he had that. And he actually had the... tumor removed from his pituitary gland and it radically changed his fighting ability. Oh, that's in a better way or a worse way? Much worse. His body wasn't producing the – his endocrine system wasn't functioning properly anymore. Oh, yeah, because you're not going to shrink. Right. So his hormone levels were all hugely depleted. And this is at the time where they had banned testosterone replacement therapy for mixed martial arts athletes. So he couldn't be on it anymore. But when he was on it. Oh, my God. Yeah. When he was on the sauce, and he was like 300 pounds and huge. He was killing people. Yeah, that would suck. Yeah, he was like one of the first guys to beat up Fedor Emelianenko. Yeah. Who's one of the greatest of all time. But it was just, he was so big. He was like 300 plus pounds and a black belt in jujitsu and a legitimate giant. God. Robert Wadlow didn't have that. You know what I'm talking about? The guy that was 8'11". He didn't have that? No, he didn't. No. Was he just abnormally tall? 8'11". What does he look like? Oh, did he need a cane or anything like that? Or did he walk normally? He died pretty young, but not even related to the... to just being that tall. He died from... I think he might have had a cane later. At some point. Yeah, okay. But I believe, unless I'm mistaken, he died because his shoes had to be specially made and the nails in the soles gave him an infection. What? And he died from the infection, I think. That's crazy. But look at him next to that. I mean... Isn't that wild? Yeah. But I mean, it's like, well, how did that exist in, what, 1920 to 1930? And we've never had anyone like that now. Right.
[75:00] Doesn't look like a guy who has a disease. He looks like a normal guy. It was just enormous. I mean, like, yeah, he birthed eight pound, five ounces in that while. He's great size and continued growth in adulthood due to hypertrophy of the pituitary gland. So he did have a pituitary gland issue. I thought he didn't have it, and that's why he was. Yeah. So it's basically the same, but he looks much more normal. Well, I wonder why that happens now. Oh, at the time, corrective surgery was dangerous and not guaranteed to work. So his parents decided against intervening. But until he graduated, he's eight foot four. That's crazy. His burial is wild. Like how, oh, he had to have leg braces. Yeah. Had little feeling in his legs and feet, but he never used a wheelchair. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. There's something about his shoes. Look at his shoes. Holy fucking shit. Size 37 shoes. Ooh, boy, that'd be rough. What do you think? Imagine the... The historical depictions of giants. Huh? Historical depictions of giants. Like in... Like giants in the Bible, giants in... Oh, yeah. There's Native American stories of giants. They have a lot of similarities, oddly. Well, there's tall people. A lot of them are red hair. No, red hair, six fingers, six toes. Weird stuff. Yeah, wasn't that... Wasn't that... Who'd the one guy beat with the damn sling? Yeah. David and Goliath? Didn't Goliath have six fingers, I believe, in the bowl somewhere? I don't know. I remember that from Sunday school, I think. I don't remember, but I bet you're right. I was pretty infatuated by the six fingers aspect of it. Well, what's interesting is the Native Americans had very similar stories of large, red-haired, pale-skinned giants with six fingers and six toes with no access to the Bible whatsoever. Or they're talking about a real thing. That's where it gets weird. I feel like it can't be a real thing. Why is that? Eh, because they're not around now. Well, that doesn't mean anything because Denisovans are not around now either, and we know those were a real thing. Yeah, but were the giants – oh, okay. Well, were the giants a separate thing from the humans, or were they just like humans that – Probably a different branch of the human species. That's what I think. There's just too many stories. Or for whatever reason, didn't make it. Died off. Like a lot of other – like 90% of all species that have ever lived are gone. Well, that's true. Yeah, yeah, yeah. beings that existed. You know, like the Denisovan one is really weird. I don't know if you've... Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So they're realizing these Denisovans were much larger than humans, than Homo sapiens. Like a lot larger. Like much bigger head, bigger cranial capacity, bigger brain capacity, larger jaw, larger eye sockets, larger eyeballs, like really weird stuff. So why'd they die out then? They should have been the ones killing us. Well, we might have been the most clever because we're the softest. You know, we're the weakest, so we were probably the most vicious. And we probably figured out tools better than they did. And we probably slaughtered them because they were dangerous. That makes sense. I mean, look, we figured out how to survive around lions, tigers, and bears. Oh, my. Oh, my. We're clever. Wasps. Yeah, all kinds of stuff. It's entirely possible that we wipe them out. You know, like that might be a part of the allegory. That may be a part of like when you read the story of David and Goliath, like what happens? Well, David kills the giant. You know that might have been what we did we probably hunted them Give what you get. Yeah, and it probably also – they probably required an insane amount of resources. It was probably incredibly difficult. It's like dinosaurs. Yeah, to feed them. So the main reason they went out wasn't because of like, you know, the asteroid didn't just kill them all. It mostly died from a lack of resources. They didn't know obviously like the oxygen levels changing and all that business. Yeah, well, a lot of things happen, right? But that's where chickens are. Chickens are basically living dinosaurs. But they're tiny. You ever see a chicken go after a mouse? No, I've seen chickens go after other chickens, or chickens go after worms, or other little bugs. It's very dinosaur-like, very velociraptor-like. But the way they go after a mouse is insane. It's like the ferocity in which they attack a mouse. Like there's a video we played it a million times, but there's a cat and the cat has a mouse and the cat's kind of toying with the mouse. And a chicken runs over and snatches it from the cat and just rips it apart like a monster. Just shaking it, pecking it, tearing it apart. my... Yeah, watch this. Look at this chicken. Fuck this... Fuck this mouse up. That's already happening. I mean, they try to steal it from each other. They all know what it is. They want that mouse. And you think of chickens as being these little cute little things that peck around the grass. No. If they catch a mouse, they will fuck that mouse up. Yeah, because, I mean, they'll do it to other chickens. Like, my grandparents had chickens.
[80:00] and they, you know, they'd kill each other sometimes. That's what the pecking order is. Yeah, they literally peck at each other and tear each other apart. They're ruthless little cunts. I mean, actually, really, all animals kind of do that to an extent. Like, they kill their young. I know. Well, humans do, too. Lindsay, Clancy. But, um... Well, allegedly, I guess. Allegedly. She said she did it. Well, yeah. She may have been under the end. You know, she may have still been psychotic when she admitted. That one's so bizarre to me. She might have been psychotic when she admitted that she did it? No, that's what some people think. Some people think that she may. I mean, the people who are just trying to find any excuse for why she did what she did have come to just a million different ways. Yeah, that one is that was not on my bingo card. I didn't think you're going to see hundreds of women wearing pink shirts showing up outside the courthouse during the trial in support of her having. strangled her fucking children with an exercise cord one at a time. I did not understand that. I still really don't. There is just a huge number of people who have just gotten so invested in true crime, like true crime YouTube channels, and that's all they watch all day, every day. And so they have basically convinced themselves that they are detectives, but they suck at it. It's like, you know, I've watched so much football that I do watch it, and I basically think I know more than an NFL head coach. Meanwhile, I don't know anything. Why would you call that play, you idiot? I wouldn't have done that. I'm just sitting there, you know, eating pretzels. Of course. But there's like all these women who have done the same thing but with true crime, and they think they're goddamn Clarice Starling. And yeah, but – so they think there's like – there's a cover-up, a conspiracy. Oh, the police department must be covering up things because the husband definitely did it like – They just go down these rabbit holes of... TikTok. Is the Dunning-Kruger effect in real time? Yes. Yes, it is exactly what it is. Yeah. Yeah. It's fascinating to see, but it is very sad when it comes to that type of thing happening. Right. Well, it's it's. bizarre. I never thought we'd see it. Like during the Casey Anthony trial, nobody was in support of Casey Anthony. Hell no. Now she could have been proven, well she kind of was, but like full on innocence. Her, you know, nobody would ever believe that she didn't kill that kid. Right. Which by the way, I'm going to send you this Jamie, because you're not even going to believe this is real. But, uh, Casey Anthony has chimed in. on the Shane Gillis whore joke. Casey Anthony. Well, on on. Casey Anthony wrote a long piece on Substack. About the joke that Shane Gillis said about women dressing like whores on SNL. Casey Anthony is just lady who killed her kid. It makes you so angry. You just want to strangle your loved one Well, not only that I mean this lady was if you wanted us use that term was Strangled her kids so she could go out and fucking party. Yeah. Yeah women can dress however they want women in the gym can dress However, they want men who have opinions about how women dress need to all the way go fuck themselves and This toxic masculinity trend needs to end. These fragile men need to get out of the way of women in totality. This lady killed her kid. Yeah. And she feels like she can take the moral high ground. and chime in about a joke on Saturday Night Live. So, wow. Which is really, the joke is on Shane. Because the joke is that he looks like a creep in the background of all these TikToks watching these ladies that are wearing nothing. Doing these exercises. Well, he also didn't call them whores. He just said they dress like it. Yes. Completely different thing. I mean, you know. You can dress like anything, you know. My nephew was dressed like Batman, like, last year. He's not stopping crime. I don't know. I just... I mean, I get, I guess, a little bit of it, but, like, I think people weren't understanding, like, the nuance or, you know, really, like, thinking about all the way he's thinking. He's just come out there and said, oh, y'all are all whores for dressing like this. No, no, no, no. Well, you're not. I mean, and also you can... You can dress however you want. Who cares? Yeah, who cares? But also, when you do go to a gym, I mean, Jesus. I know. Like, it is kind of hard not to be like, God, what the hell are you doing? It's kind of crazy. I mean, I've seen ladies at the gym that wear essentially sheer pink, really small shorts with no underwear on, and they're doing deadlifts. And when they're bending over, they're sticking their vagina with the thinnest of cloth out into the air. Oh, I knew one of them was pregnant before she did. I'd say you're about six weeks. And by the way, I have no problem with women.
[85:00] dressing like that have fun god bless you if you have a great body especially show it off to the world who cares and don't be afraid to admit that that's what you're doing because that's what guys do you know there's no reason to wear a sleeveless shirt versus a sleeve shirt in the gym right you're wearing a sleeveless shirt because you want people to see your arms show the guns show the guns there's nothing wrong with that and everyone wants to wear like skin tight stuff to you know show off who cares who cares i don't care but i guess the word whore is what gets them yeah i get it i get Well, it's also because like real misogyny actually exists, like real women who hate – or real men rather who hate women do exist. And so when you see a guy joking around about a woman dressing like a whore, you connect it to horrible misogyny. thoughts like horrible actions like real actual evil men yes that actually because like there's a lot of men that genuinely hate women Shane Gillis is not one of them right and he's a great guy it's just a joke but but for some people those words and then you see like the word police people which is hilarious we need to stop using that word we're still using the word whore like you're not I It was great. It's a great word. It's a great word. Yeah, it's a great word for also yourself. Like, like, I freely admit that when I did, like, especially the second iteration of Fear Factor, it's because I was being a whore. They offered me a fuckload of money to come back in 2011 and host Fear Factor again. And I'm like, I'm a whore. Let's go. Why not? Oh, I would whore myself out for far less. Yeah, it's not. I don't think it's a bad word. I just think it has to be used wisely. Yeah. You know, it's one of the good things and bad things about the Internet is that everyone has an opinion. It's good. It's good. You get to see it all play out, see the see the chaos and hopefully the dust will settle and there's be some clarity and what's real and what's not real. But because of the echo chambers and bubbles that people live in online, there won't be any clarity, you know, because everything is connected to an algorithm and you're only interacting with people that agree with you. And it's like, yeah, OK. And yeah, this is too complicated. real or what's not real. Well, that's a real problem. Yeah. Well, and just forming your opinions on, like, I don't know, people are just so opinionated to the point where, like, it's their identity. Like, their take on a certain topic, that is who I am. And every conversation I have, that's going to come up. And I hate those people. I do as well. So much. And by the way, that's a new thing. Yeah. I'm older than you, and when I was a kid, that didn't exist. Yeah. I mean, there were some people that were ideologically – They were ideologically connected to whatever their political party was, but not to the extent that people are today. We're flavored every single opinion they have about every aspect of society from paper straws to fucking electric cars to vaccines and health care and fucking everything. Everything is connected politically. And if you don't. say something about it then you must be on the opposite side silence is violence cody tucker silence i know yeah like you're silent like because if i'm silent on something that automatically means like i could be silent about it but still be on your side but no like they believe that i'm silent i remember people getting mad at people that didn't put a black square on their instagram Well, yeah, because they didn't stop... The violence. They could have stopped it by doing that. With a box bearer. It would have been nice. If the black square would have ended all the arms. If the whole country just put up a black square, it would have been over. We could have moved into a new timeline. Yeah. Could have, but yeah, I know. It's just that virtue signaling. It is, and it's also this sort of evolution of human thinking that's happening in real time with this – So you've got this thing the internet that gives you immense resources and access to information, but then you also have a opinions that are inside this ecosystem that aren't even real. These are bots. Like there's so many bots. I read an article. There was an article in the New York Times about Elon Musk's ex-girlfriend. You know, there's the one that he offered, Ashley St. Clair. He offered her allegedly. 40 million. She's his baby mama, right? So she has one of his babies. And she offered him – or he offered her, rather, allegedly $40 million to be quiet. And she said no. And she's blabbing to the world. So she was at one point in time a right-wing influencer. And now she is a part of the Democratic Socialists of America. She's joined the DSA, which is fascinating. Quite a swing. Quite a swing. Always interesting when people do a complete 180. So... There's this article that's written in the New York Times.
[90:00] And they post about it on Instagram. And I go into the comments. I go, okay, I need to see – because I'm saying this is – ripe for bots. Like, this is going to be a fucking bot farm. Like, 100%. And it's all it was. It was crazy. It was a lot of them are literally saying the same thing. He could have just given her a billion. Yeah. He's got a trillion dollars. He could have just given her a billion. She would have stayed quiet. And you click on their page, and there's no posts. And there's... Yeah. It's locked down. It's a private page. There's... It's a name and a bunch of numbers. This is wild. This is like a fake... outrage account And there's a thousand of them that are posting on this. It's all the same thing. I've had it happen on one of my videos. I had to take it down because I was so, like, I was like, what is happening right now? It was like one about Henry Ford that I did about him being just a massive asshole and about, like, his Nazi connections. Interesting. And it turned into a full, the Holocaust didn't happen. Like, it turned into that with thousands. I mean, I've never, like, at that time had anywhere near that kind of traction. I looked and I was like, it's like, God damn, that one's getting a lot. views and reading them is like the numbers actually this it's not six million or like you know and it's just go it's just constant and some of them were real or at least seem real because it's a real person saying this like well there are levels of sophistication when it comes to bots especially today with AI they generate one of the things you could tell is like how far recent the page started. I like to go back to their first post. And a lot of their first post is like six weeks ago or a month ago. And then you see that there's no interaction at all. No one's posting. No one's commenting. They have these posts. It's like them with their kid on a swing, them working on a car in the backyard. And it might be AI generated. Or it might be they have taken it from somewhere else. But they can create a page that seems like a real person. Right. And they say a bunch of things that seem like what a real person would say, like really simple captions for each picture. So there's like levels of sophistication. And then eventually it's going to be ex machina type. levels of sophistication where you're not going to be able to discern whether or not it's a real person commenting or not. No, and you can have the whole rule believe something just if you have enough money to pay for enough bots. Yes. Well, it's not even enough money. It's not expensive. That's what's crazy. You could start a bot campaign – fairly cheaply. And have a bunch of people think, oh, my God, people are really mad at Cody Tucker. Yeah, yeah. Like, you could really have people's – and you could shift a lot of the casuals who are just barely paying attention. You could shift their perception on you. Yeah. And that's what they're trying to do. And they're certainly trying to do that with Elon. But this thing with – do you think it was Ford Motor Company that was doing this? No, no, no. What do you think it was? There's just this massive rise in Holocaust denial. that's happened within just like the last couple of years. Or like any post that has to do... I mean, a lot of it obviously has to do with like the Israel-Palestine conflict and like Zionism and all this stuff. And there's a lot of people who just like... watch like this one documentary that like disproves the Holocaust. And it's all, that documentary is all a bunch of like... Which documentary is that? It's called Europa, I think. It's like... It's all hogwash. None of it's real. It's just this guy who was a famous Holocaust denier. And now it's just become like the... I don't know, because it's not even necessarily like a right-wing versus left-wing thing, you know, where like, oh, all the right-wing people are Holocaust-kniters or, you know, vice versa. It's like all – it's like groups from everybody, but it's all like – For the most part, younger people, like my age or younger, that, yeah, just don't think it happened. You know what's also interesting, too, is that it's such a disgusting subject that no one legitimate wants to debate someone who doesn't believe in the Holocaust. Right. Like you don't get like a legitimate scholar on World War II who wants to sit down and have a conversation with someone who's a Holocaust denier. Right. It's like you don't platform those people. truth right right yeah who do you think was the textbooks it was the right yeah but okay and what is their argument their argument is that is this less number that the numbers lower that pops up every single time is 200 and that's why i started realizing it might be boxes because every one of them was saying 271 000 like every post or 217 000 is one too so they think that's the number comes to by like crunching the numbers on like... The amount of Jews in the area or something, I don't know. Right, right. But it's absolutely absurd. So do you think that it's a foreign country that is doing this bot?
[95:00] attack? Like, what do you think? Because like, if you were anti-Israel, like if you were against Israel's policies, and you were a foreign country, if you're, whatever, fill in the blank, Palestine, Pakistan, whatever it is, you get some Muslim country that wants to fund some sort of anti-Israel thing, and then you would go after the core reason why people have sympathy for the Jews in modern society is because they were almost exterminated in Germany. I mean, basically the reason Israel exists is because of the Holocaust. Because of the Holocaust. And, yeah, so that would be the way to do it. I mean, and I just think there's a lot of people who, yeah, just believe it because they read it on the Internet. They see the meme saying blah, blah, blah, and they just outright believe it. I think bots should be illegal. I really do. 100%. I don't care because I'm sure there's a lot of bots that follow me on social media. Oh, I know there are a lot of bots that follow me. I mean, I don't know what the number is, but I'm sure I would guess it's probably about 25%. Let my number, I don't care if my numbers drop or I don't care if my money goes down. Get rid of it. Get rid of bots. I always felt that you should have to have an ID to be able to prove who you are to be able to create an account on any social media platform I agree Like you know I think there like dating apps that do it when you have to take a picture of your ID and then you go through like a vetting process. That should be the same with Instagram, Facebook. The problem with that is whistleblowers. And I think that there is a, there's a legit argument that, especially if you're like an Edward Snowden or Chelsea Manning type person who has access to information that is highly classified, but you don't want to reveal your identity, but people need to know. There's a crime being committed on the American people or the people of the world or whatever. The whistleblower thing, protections for whistleblowers was a key part of the Obama campaign when he was running for office, was protection for whistleblowers. Meanwhile, he was one of the worst people for whistleblowers ever. There was a president, which is kind of funny. Yeah. But they also even removed that part from the Hope and Change website. So the Hope and Change website had this whole thing about whistleblowers. They were like, deleted that. Yeah. Cat came out of the bag on that one. Good Lord. But so that the argument against having to show identification is that it probably important that some people be able to post anonymous Because there very powerful people that would try to take them out Right No no I do believe in anonymity for whistleblowers But how do you do that and then also have an ID to post? No, you can't. But, I mean, you can just whistleblow the old-fashioned way and just write it to a newspaper that only about 40 people are going to read now because nobody reads newspapers. Unfortunately, you can't even count on the newspaper printing that. Well, no, no. Depending upon what you're revealing and what ideology would be opposed to that and whether or not this newspaper ascribes to that ideology. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, which that's kind of always been a problem, too. But if you went back to, like, you know, the all the president's men, you know, Nixon, Watergate stuff, like at least, you know, they were able to do that. Well, that was one of the most disturbing things about Elon purchasing Twitter was when they let Michael Schellenberger, Matt Taibbi, and all these journalists review the emails that were with the executives at Twitter were in contact with the intelligence agencies. And the intelligence agencies were actively censoring accounts were directing them to remove accounts accounts that were posting factual information but that was inconvenient towards the COVID policies of the Biden administration So they were actively censoring legitimate scientists from Stanford, MIT, like legit people. And they were like, uh-uh, ban them, take them off. Because it didn't fit in with, you know, whatever. Scary. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I don't know if there's really any real right way of going about it. I mean, we may be doing it the best, the most right way that it could be done, which that's terrifying if that's true. I don't – well, I think there has to be a way to tell if something is a bot and you should have some sort of filters in your system at least to mitigate the bots to get to a point where you can't just have a letter and a name and a bunch of fucking numbers. and 50,000 of those accounts and bomb on someone's account because Henry Ford was a Nazi. Or just, I guess that doesn't work either. I was saying, like, just have it where you're vetted and then only people who have been vetted can comment. But at the same time, that doesn't necessarily work because if a person's a whistleblower, you know, then it ruins that. Yeah. Yeah. The problem is anonymity is important when you're revealing something, especially when you're doing...
[100:00] You're revealing something about a government or a corporation where they could whack you. You know, it's like, which I think, I don't want to say it, but I think the best way to do it is just to ignore the comments. And just let them, but there's a bunch of people who don't do that. And it does artificially alter public opinion on things. Yeah. Yeah, which is, that was why, like, for that post, I just took it down. Because I was like, oh, I'm not going to go through and sift out all these comments. Did you think about just banning the comments? Just blocking comments? Oh, Disabling Comments? No, not until right now. That might have been the best way to do it. Probably should have done that. Because I remember that post. Yeah. It was an interesting post. Yeah. Does it exist anymore, anywhere? No. Wow. Wow. They got you. They got you. I know. I was infiltrated. Maybe that's how the people that are pro-Holocaust narrative do it. they put in so many scumbags that if you agree if you follow what they're saying you're a terrible person and people don't want to do that and so they're shaming you for posting it wild it's not good I probably should have just taken out the comments how bad was Henry Ford though He just not a good person overall Is this it Oh Where does it exist YouTube shorts YouTube shorts. YouTube shorts. Oh! Let's put the headphones on. Do you want to check the comments? Let's start from the beginning. That'd be pretty funny. Start from the beginning. Here we go. Henry Ford revolutionized the automobile industry, With his moving assembly line allowing for the manufacturing of the Model T to go from 12 hours per car to 90 minutes per car. At that point, they were making 10,000 Model Ts a day. He also doubled his employees' wages and basically created a new middle class in America. Despite all of this, Henry Ford was also a massive anti-Semite. In 1920, Henry Ford began publishing a weekly magazine called The International Jew, The World's Problem. Henry Ford's views on the Jewish population struck a nerve with a young man in Austria, who included Henry Ford in his manifesto, Mein Kampf. Henry Ford was the only American complimented in that book written by a young Adolf Hitler. Henry Ford even received the Grand Cross of the German Eagle the highest German award for foreigners by Adolf Hitler himself That wild Click on the comments please Yeah. Let's go. Here we go. I'd love to see what these comments are. What does it say here? Oh, for a second, one. Henry Ford, a man ahead of time. Wow. I bet they're not talking about the first part. It always feels like we've forgotten more than we remember. Thank you. I live in Detroit, and ooh boy, is this topic taboo. I wonder why. The irony is that when the war broke out, the same Henry IV revolutionized the manufacturing of war planes. Other admirers of that little mustache Austrian painter were Disney, King Edward VIII, Duke of Windsor, Wallace Simpson. Yeah, Charles Lindbergh. Lindbergh. Was he really? Charles Lindbergh's a massive Nazi, yeah. Whoa. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No way. Mm-hmm. So this isn't as bad. Oh, this one's nowhere near as bad. It seems like... Stop, stop, stop. Go back up. Was it Henry Ford requested? No. Some of these seem like bots. Yeah. I didn't know that Ford was... I mean, Ford was... I don't know. None of it... Ford was a great man. I mean, the My Type of Guy thing is very... Yeah. Yeah. It could be shit posters Well yeah which I think that a lot of it too Yeah who knows Who knows It got Lionel Richie in his fucking That his image So it seems like it's more of a social media thing than a YouTube thing, where the comments were, but God, a lot of those seem like bots. Yeah, they do. These names with all the... When you see names like that, with a bunch of numbers behind it, I have so much more respect for Henry now. That's the one, yeah. At the top? Yeah. But these are definitely nowhere near as bad. I mean. Nowhere near as bad, but the same thing. I have more respect for him. But look at what it is. It's the same thing. It's these names with a bunch of numbers. Yeah. Yeah, almost all of them are. I mean, there was an article we've referenced many times where a former FBI analyst was looking at Twitter before Elon Musk purchased it. And he determined that it was somewhere in the neighborhood of 80% bots. Really? Because they were trying to say that it was 5%. Yeah. And they did that by a 100 post random sampling. So they just randomly got, allegedly randomly. Right. But if you're trying to sell something for $4 billion or whatever he paid for it. Yeah, it's not right. Was it $40 billion? What did he pay for it? For Twitter? Something crazy. $44 billion? $44 billion. Good God.
[105:00] So if you're selling something for 44 billion, the last thing you want to do is find out that it's mostly just robots yelling into the abyss. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. But this CIA guy, or this FBI guy, said he estimated at the high end it's in the 80%. I mean, that seems so high, but probably... But it makes sense, though. It's probably right, yeah. If you think about it, that's the town hall. And propaganda has always been a thing. Distributing leaflets, putting propaganda films out, all this. That's always been a thing. So why wouldn't you... Why wouldn't you utilize the greatest vehicle of propaganda the world has ever seen? And just have an army of people comment on things. Makes sense. Yeah. Manufactured Outrage. Yes, which is what most things are now. It's like manufactured outrage or manufactured... like fandom like i feel like most things that are so popular now there's no way that's authentic like what kind of stuff like certain movies will make just an astronomical amount of money i'm like i i don't think that many people want to see that movie like that new spider-man movie that brand new days like broke every record like who the hell went to go see that you'd be amazed people love superhero or like the ella langley you know that muse that song it's just nothing against her nothing against the song but it's like beating all these records like i don't know a single person into that but maybe also i listen that song okay i like it you should go to a bar on sixth street yeah okay is it really well that actually makes popular yeah maybe it makes yeah i think maybe i'm just i'm not the best person to even talk about that kind of stuff because i'm in a dang one person bubble so yeah you're in a bubble have you ever seen her uh there's a film of her uh a video of her getting ready to go on stage and she's walking through the backstage area and that compelling. It is. Isn't it weird how that video is so captivating? Because I've watched it so many. Here, play it. Give me volume. Yes, I've watched this video. Oh, because of the song? Yeah. Yeah. On that note, I'll talk to you later. Never mind. You want to just tell me now and edit it out? Yeah, yeah. You and LL Cool J... reciting the lyrics to going back to Cali got flagged. Oh my God. That's how the flags work. It's like, because you recited the lyrics. Really? Oh my God. These fucking criminals. Was he reciting them? Yeah, both of them. Yeah, both of them. But he probably doesn't own the... No, it doesn't. It's not that the... It's just the flag itself. That's fucking bananas. Bananas. Wow. It's a weird world we're living in, man. Yes. If you hum... a song. Like, um, you know that song? Is it, I'm not going to say it. Is it a, talk about songs anymore, but is it the, is it the, the, is it sunshine of my life? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Some of you guys have done that a lot. I do that all the time. Like, whenever I think about someone, like, really high on drugs, I always, like, make that noise. And if you can't, well, I'll make it real quick and then we'll edit it. Right. Here we go. Sunshine of your love. Yeah. Sunshine of your love. Yeah. Cream. So, Cream, right. So when, if you do that on a podcast, they'll flag you. Just do that. That's so crazy. Crazy. Oh, my God. Crazy. I'm amazed mine hasn't. because I have a movie podcast, and one of our categories is called Creeded and Weave, where you have to place the Creed song, arguably the greatest song ever written, My Own Prison, by Creed, somewhere in the movie, where do you put it? And we always end up singing the song. They probably haven't got you yet. They'll find you. I don't know. We do a good job. They're going to get you now. Yeah. Now that you're talking about it here, they're going to get you. Yeah. I shouldn't have mentioned it. Screw it. But that Choosing Texas song is huge. No, it is, I guess. It's huge. There's something about this world that is so chaotic that... that it has made simplicity much more attractive, and country music is making a giant comeback. Oh, my God. A huge resurgence. Yes. It's because people want... like They want to be by the river with a pickup truck and with you know just having a good time and praising Jesus and they they want simplicity. They want things to be clearly defined and they want to take away the anxiety of the unknown because the anxiety of the unknown is looming over us constantly like a fog like that that giant sky demon from stranger things. Yeah. You know that fucking thing? Oh, yeah. That's like looming. That's what our future, our uncertain future and this... technological hell that we've unleashed on the world. And there's a lot of people that they long for the opposite of that. They long for Yellowstone. They long for cowboy shows. They long for things to be simple. That's a bit. No, I do agree with that, where people just want to have land, and people want to occupy their land, and they want to...
[110:00] or raise families on their land. There's that. That's like 90% of the actions. Homesteading. Yeah, and... but I think with the music though, it was kind of interesting because like, I mean, you could kind of say that about any time, like the sixties. When was there ever a more, um, Like, what the hell's about to happen to us? It's time. But then that was some of the most original music ever made, and some of the most complex music ever made at that point. Sure. So it was like... The chaos... turned into chaotic music. Whereas now, the uncertainty has turned into, God dang, I just want to make sure this music sounds the same. I want to know what I'm getting before I get it. Maybe people just suck at making music now, too. I don't know about that. Well, no, not overall, but I think what gets pushed to the top is more like that. I think people... Like whoever's, you know, marketing music, whatever company, you know, whether it's Sony, whoever, they're way less likely to take a risk on someone. And they just know like, okay, this worked the past 15 times. Well, let's go and do 16th and do it that way. Where I think that wasn't always the case. I mean, you could definitely say there was like the pop, you know, bubblegum pop of the 60s where it was just how many versions of... Dave Clark Five can we make? But occasionally they would bust out the doors or... Big Brother and the Holding Company or something. Now I don't think there's any version of that. Well, I don't know if that's true. No. No, because I think that today, one of the very unique things about today is that you don't need anyone to... for you to go viral. All you have to do is be able to post it online. Like Oliver Anthony is a great example of that. He comes up with Rich Men North of Richmond, and it becomes this fucking massive hit, like out of nowhere. And it turns out he's actually really fucking talented and stays independent and does it all on his own. Yeah. I think those are very few and far between. But they exist, and they didn't exist before. So in the 60s, you couldn't do that. If you were going to release an album, you had to go through a music company. You had to go through a record company. You had to have an agent. You had to have a manager. You had to have all these – there was gatekeepers to keep you from getting on the radio. You couldn't just have a song and bring it to the radio station and say, hey, will you play my song? That's not how it worked. No, no. You had to bring your demo to a label, and then the label took care of the rest. Oliver Anthony's first time performing live was in front of like 12,000 people. jesus so he's a guy who like makes a song literally like in a field with a fucking cool guitar yeah and sings this song and it resonated with people so strongly that they just went out to see him in droves that is but he's a very unique talent yeah but it's also like that thing now exists where it never existed before and there are people like that out there there's there's a bunch of other that are popping off like left and right all over the place in that way just resonate with people. I need to... actually listen to some newer music. Because I never do. I'm so stuck in... like older music. Have you ever heard his song Scornful Woman? Oliver Anthony's? Yeah. Yeah. You played it for me. That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that was amazing. Whoa. Yeah. That was so good. No, he is amazing, and there are some people for sure. I just feel like talent... his... I don't know. There's something that just feels too... robotic about music. Like whenever I hear songs now, it... sounds like it's made on a laptop. But it's almost like too well produced. Whereas if I listen to Van Halen 1, I can hear the times where Eddie Van Halen fucks up. Right, right, right. Even though he's the greatest good artist of all time. I want to hear the imperfections in that. And now you would have a producer go through and cut out every little thing. and it doesn't even sound like a person anymore. Right. So there's something that just feels like an uncanny valley about music now. Movies have become that way even to me. Well, there's a lot of AI clips that I watch now on YouTube with these short AI movies like Dracula vs. the Wolfman. Yes. And they're really clunky. They're clunky and the graphics are kind of, they're a little shitty. They're really good but not good enough. Right. But I'm just fascinated that a regular person gets to do these things. It's really weird. Yeah, I mean, there's part of me that thinks that's a good thing, but part of me that doesn't. Sometimes I feel like there needs to be a bottleneck. you know? Where I think, I don't know, I feel like less is more almost always. Well, it's definitely going to be hard to find the quality things. But I think that the question...
[115:00] All these things are going to exist where they wouldn't have existed before. Like someone who's just a very creative person and has an idea that would have cost millions and millions of dollars to produce. Instead, is just sitting at home with a laptop and an LLM and they feed it into that. And next thing you know, you've got this really cool creative video that came out of their imagination that wouldn't have been possible. But the amount of those versus the amount of bullshit is crazy. That's the problem. That's the problem. with music too. There's just so much. That's why live performance is so awesome. Going to see a live musician. Oliver Anthony played at our club. He played at the Mother Show. We've only had two awesome bands play there. Oliver Anthony and his band and Red Clay Strays. They're amazing. That's one of the few bands that I do actively listen to that's a modern. Lead singer, also Android user. There you go. Doesn't give a fuck. Yeah. I feel like there's maybe quite a little overlap between him and I. There's a rebellion thing about Android users. Yeah. It's interesting. Yeah. There's a bunch of people that I know that are – Brian Simpson, Android user. See? Andrew Wilson, Android user. There's a bunch of people that are like, you know, just – unwilling. Unwilling to give in to the call of the siren. Exactly. No, I'm strapped to the mast at this point. Yeah. I'm not – yeah. Well, I feel like if I changed it now, I'd be a real – Dickhead. Well, that's a problem with committing to something like that. Because if you tried an Apple iPhone and you realize, oh, my God, this is so much easier to use and better, and it does things for you. I don't want to even think about that. You'd give up on the convenience? What if it was able to do things that you couldn't do without it? I'm not that interested in convenience. I don't really need convenience. No, because I don't do anything else. less convenient life. Do you ever think that you will make your life more complicated? Do you ever see yourself having a family or anything like that? Oh, geez. Oh, it's entirely possible. How old are you now? There may already be one now. How old are you now? 32. Do you think about it someday? Do you have a little Cody running around? Um... Man, I don't know. Maybe. I don't know. I feel like I'd probably be an all right dad. I'm sure you're a nice guy. I'm sure you'd be a great dad. It would change you. It'll change you. I don't know about it in a bad way. But I won't be able to do it whatever I want to do. You won't. You won't. That's true. That's true. Yes. I'm a big like, but you will love this child more than you've ever loved anything in your life. It'll change your life. You don't have to. No, well, I'm not encouraging you as a father. I'm not encouraging. I think I do not like the idea that you don't the only way to live a fulfilling life is to be a parent. I think that is a. I think... Any sort of reductionist perspective on a person's life and purpose I think is ridiculous. There's a lot of people that have never had children that have greatly impacted the human race. Oh, for sure. In a super positive way. Yeah. And had wonderful relationships and friendships and people loved them and missed them and they genuinely changed the world. You don't have to have children. No, but in all situations I probably will at some point. Yeah. I'm sure. I think you'd be a great person. Thank you. dad you know So I'd probably do it. You might have to leave your town to find a... You got a lady right now? Yeah. Oh, well, good. Congratulations. Yeah. Does she want to have little ones? Little Cody's? She already does. She already does. Well, she doesn't already have little Cody's. But she has children already? Yeah. So. I mean, I guess I kind of don't have a choice in that matter. I mean, yeah. No. No, it's all going to work out pretty good. Well, I'm glad you're... Hopeful. Yeah. A good perspective. Well, I don't really have much of a choice, you know. Yeah. Kind of be hopeful or dread life. I'm not too interested in that. Well, people are always worried about the uncertainty and the unknown. And like we were talking about before, I really genuinely think that's why there's this genuine, there's a trend, a clear trend toward like simplistic music and simplistic lifestyles. And certainly during COVID, a lot of people like turned to homesteading. Yes. by the way, I saw maybe the worst movie I've ever seen in my life the other day. Okay. I think it's called The Last House. It kind of looked interesting. Wait, hold on. The Last House? Are you sure that's what it was called? I think that's what it's called. Yeah, it just came out. Yeah, okay. It's good. Oh. Okay. Okay.
[120:00] It's good for a while. The ending is maybe the worst ending of any movie of all time. It's almost like they ran out of... Yeah, this is it. Oh, this is it. Yes, we'll get... Spoiler alert. They get trapped in the house by aliens. So aliens won't let you leave the house. You can't break the windows. You can't open the door. For whatever fucking reason that makes no sense whatsoever. And then these aliens are like these big squid things that are like octopus things that hang out outside your door. and then most people starve to death because they can't leave the house. But this one family, the dad's an engineer, they figure out a way to trap animals and drag them back into the house and then they survive somehow or another. But there's these monsters that live out there. I don't want to spoiler it for anybody, but the ending is so fucking dumb. You're just going to go, what happened here? And by the way, that guy who's the lead actor is the guy who played Pablo Escobar. Yeah, Narcos. Yeah, he's amazing. And he won a number of nominated for an Oscar last year for some... He's fucking great. No, he is. He's an amazing actor. But holy shit is this movie bad. How long do you think you'd be less than that? In that kind of world You last for a while Trapped in a house Trapped in a house is not good Yeah but you got all kinds of stockpiles Yeah For good you go okay good for a year What are you good for two years And then you going to need food You're going to need to get out of the house. There's no way you're going to be able to live in your... The premise of the movie is ridiculous. Yeah. And they throw a trap out of the chimney, and that's how they catch animals on the front porch. It's the dumbest fucking... Oh, that's pretty good. Good thinking. It's kind of okay. Like, maybe it kind of would work, but it's the ending. I don't want to give away the ending. The ending, you're just going to go, what the fuck just happened? I wouldn't laugh so long. One of the monsters is a good monster, and it tells them, don't kill these people, and it opens the door and lets them out. After like six years. Wait, so that's the ending? Oh, yeah! And then they never see the monsters again, and then they go sailing. It's the dumbest fucking ending you'll ever see in a movie ever. There's another trapped on a boat. Well, they're going to go around and eventually find other people that live, too. Oh, God. But there's maybe like 30 people left on Earth. And by the way, these monsters, they never see them again. That's also part of the thing. Meanwhile, they're everywhere in the beginning. Every time it gets dark out and rains, these monsters are outside their house, and they have to cover the windows, or the monsters will see them. And then one day the monsters enter in the house and try to kill them And then they fight with the monster and then don kill the monster and that monster decides they a good guy and so he lets them out i don like any of this dude it so bad the ending you're going what in the fuck did i just watch i wouldn't make it three days i can't ration so i'd be really all the potato chips oh everything i mean i have plenty of things and i could survive, but I'd get way too hungry. But if you knew, do you think you would change your behavior? Or would you say, like, let's just... It's too embedded. I've lived this way way too long. Until the wheels fall off. Let's go. I mean, might as well. I have a clean bill of health as far as my doctor goes. I might as well go out with a clean bill of health. What if you found yourself out in the woods and there was no one anywhere around you? You woke up and you're in a cabin, but you have a rifle, a large amount of bullets, firewood some sort of a wood stove and water do you think you'd live no so i would take the rifle and put it i mean i would i would look out the windows and i would maybe like whistle what if there's a bunch of books like really cool books in the cabin and all you had to do is just figure out a way to shoot some squirrels stay alive i wouldn know it wouldn be worth it i don I think I I think I just say you not Wow I want an easy life I'm not meant for a difficult life. No. I've ruined myself. Physically. But mentally, you do like challenges. Oh, yes. I love a mental challenge. I love keeping this thing going. And it's just from there down, I'm not keeping my, you know, I'm conserving energy, like I said, just in case. I understand. I understand your perspective. Because if something happens, you would be surprised, I'm telling you. I feel like you don't believe me at all on this. But if something happened, I'd really be able to take off, you know, pretty quick. What do you mean? Like fast. Run? Yeah. Yeah, I think you're delusional. Okay, well. I don't think you'd be able to run. If there was like you and me and an animal was chasing us, it's going to get you. I'm coming in first. You're coming in second. That's interesting. That's a hilarious perspective. That's actually hilarious. Well, it depends on the animal, I suppose. It does not depend on the animal. It could be a fucking chicken chasing us. I'm going to get ahead of you by a large margin really quickly, and there's no way you can catch me. It's not even physically possible.
[125:00] What's the distance? It doesn't matter. Oh. It could be 100 yards. It could be 100 miles. 40-yard dash, my 40 time was surprisingly quick. I think that was a long time ago, Coding Tucker. Yeah, it may have been a long time ago. I think it was a long time ago. I don't think there's a chance in hell that you could run faster than me. No, probably not. No. No. Well, we won't race, so I guess we'll never know the actual answer as far as I'm concerned. Yeah, but it's just a weird idea that you have in your head. A guy who's so smart and who is so interested in facts and history has this one delusional idea that you can run. Interested in facts and history? Yes. Smart now. You're not smart. I can just remember things, but I'm a pretty delusional person in this aspect. I think life's way too short to not be delusional. That's interesting. So it's like a protective shield? Yeah. Being delusional? Yes. think everything's going to work out always well that's a way better perspective than everything is going to be doom well those people are exhausted no so i do okay i actually probably shouldn't have said how what i said um i do think everything's gonna go bad but um i'm sorry hold on i think i did the wrong order so i think everything's gonna be bad inside but on the outside i try to be like i i try to convince myself that everything's okay and it does work But no, in the inside, I'm scared to death of everything. But everything is going well for you. Like you said, you've got a lady in your life. Your page is doing fantastic. You've written two books. Things are going really well. No, no, it's not that. I just think, what if I have a heart attack right now? Or what if on the way home I die in a car wreck? I'm always thinking, I'm a very what-if person. person, which is why I don't like thinking about the future, because when I think of the future, I'm not hopeful at all. It's always like something bad is going to happen to me in the future. But right now, nothing is. If things start to happen bad, like if your health starts to fade, do you think you'll make conscious decisions to become healthier? Oh, I would like to think so. I don't know. I'm very much like a as long as everything's coming back all right, I'm going to keep running this son of a bitch into the ground. Right. As long as everything's coming back all right. Yeah, but if I get an A1C test that looks a little iffy. Well, I think that would probably change if you had children. That would be one of the things that would change. You would want to be around for your children. And that does happen to a lot of people. They have children and they say, oh my God, I have to be here for this little tiny person that I love to death. I have to change my diet. I have to change my life. Oh, yeah, no, there's no doubt about that. I would change things up quite a bit. I mean, I have changed some things. I quit drinking. When did you do that? Seven or eight years ago? I don't know. It was, yeah, probably about eight years ago. Actually, partly because of the Sobarktober stuff. Really? Yeah, well, that was whenever I first tried it and was like, oh. Like this is way better than drinking every day. Yeah. You certainly feel a lot better. That's for sure. Yeah. And then, you know, the month ends and then I go back to drinking, but I'm like not enjoying it that much. And then by like February of, you know, after that November, I was just like, no, done. No more. I'm tired of this. I'm tired of drinking every day. I'm tired of drinking as much as I'm drinking and feeling horrible and just quit. Good for you, man. That's it. I have it in there. I took eight months off. About eight months. And then I went out with my wife and had a... I think I had a margarita. margarita or glass of wine, something like that. And then I was like, oh, I think I'm back. Yeah. I like it. See, that's my problem. I can't have a little of something. That's the big problem. And that's why drinking was kind of easy. Not that it was easy, but it was kind of easy because I can just not drink. I'll live. Like, I can just have zero alcohol, but I can't have zero food. And that's where my problem is, is I overeat all the time because I just – I feel like I'm never going to get enough. It's like famine mentality, but I didn't grow up like poor or anything. I mean not rich, but like I don't know why I have this like mentality of like, oh, I got to have everything. But that's how it was with alcohol too is like – I can't buy an 18-pack of beer. Because that's not going to be enough. Really? No, no, no, no. So I need to buy two 18s because I know that'll be more than enough. And I don't want to ever run the chance... of not having enough. And because there's so much, I'm more inclined to drink. way more. I eat a lot, believe it or not. I'm a glutton. I have a problem. Like, I can't stop eating. I just burn it off, luckily. But I get to points where I don't. I get to points where I start getting a belly. Yeah. And I start getting fat on the sides. And I look at myself in the mirror. I'm like, oh, you look like shit, dude. It's time to, like, button down the hatches. I get to points. I've had some points where I got pretty – like, right before I did the carnivore diet the first time, I got pretty heavy. I got, like, I think I was, like, 208 or 209, which for me is a lot. What are your normal run at? Right now I'm 200, which is good. Exactly.
[130:00] That's normal. 200 pounds is normal. When I get above like 205 I start getting a little nervous. That's what I'm getting. You notice that much of a change? Yeah. Oh boy. Yeah, you notice a change. I notice a change in how I feel. I notice a change in, I feel like I'm carrying around extra weight. And I also just... feel like shit You know, it just feels good. But I'm a glutton, man. I eat so... When I sit down to eat, I just can't stop eating. I eat so much. I just... I eat... I'll eat, like, two, like... Bye. two entrees like i'll have like two steaks i'll have a steak i'll have a big bat a big plate of pasta i'll eat a bunch of appetizers like if i go out to dinner with friends i i eat like a pig i get i eat so much especially if it's italian food oh my god i'm a glutton i'll eat pizza and pasta and then i'm just like oh my my stomach is literally like stretched to the boundaries like oh then i'll sit there like a Bear that's been shot with a tranquilizer dart. Just, whoa. That's me. That's actually me, like, almost every day. I just have self-control other times. And then I don't, you know, I do a lot of intermittent fasting. Or, like, if I eat at 7 p.m. at night, I literally won't have any food at all until maybe 1 in the afternoon the next day. And then I'll work out. I'll do all this different stuff. and do a podcast. Okay. And I do that all the time. So my body has these long stretches where it's allowed to digest all the food. Yeah. But in the past, like there's been moments in the past where I haven't done that. I'll eat late night snacks. I'll get up in the morning. I have a big breakfast. Then I have a big lunch. And then it starts getting away from me. Yeah. Yeah. So I've gotten a little bit better with it just, you know, over time. But mine is just very wave, you know, up and down, up and down. Right now I'm on an up, but an up in weight, not in goodness. Right. Yeah. Like I'm really going. Do you make corrections when you feel like you're going in a bad direction? Yeah, so then I'm like, let's add some salads into this thing. And then I start doing that for a little. And then there's the down. That's where I, you know, lose a little bit of weight. My weight goes down. But then I'm like, eh, but this kind of sucks. So then I go right back up. always sucks. Like, it's just always either like, it sucks, but I'm... feeling healthier or sucks, but I'm feeling I'm eating good. Right. So, like, it's just kind of. Do you think you'd ever get to a point where you'd hire a trainer? So God, that just feels real dumb. Does it? I mean, a little bit, but I just, I can't be motivated by other people. Well, you don't have to be motivated by other people, but the other people can take you through a routine where you don't have to think. Okay, so not like a boot camp type thing. No. Not like Celebrity Fit Club. No, no, no, no. Oh, okay, because I would not wish I would go over that. I mean like you have a scheduled meeting where you meet a guy at like 10 a.m. someplace and you work out for an hour three times a week. So like a dietician, almost like what do you do when you meet with a dietician? goals. What are you trying to accomplish? Okay, I'm going to help you do that. And there's people that are really good at that. Right. There's a lot of jerk off trainers that are just assholes that just got a job at the gym. And most of the time, they don't even know what they're doing. There's a lot of people. I've met them. But then there's also people that are like really good at their job and take it very seriously and really like helping people and getting people on the right track. And recognizing that there's this moment where people start to feel better and Jelly Roll's a great example. Yeah. Jelly Roll was 500 pounds. Hell yeah. He's lost 300 pounds. Yeah. I mean, that is insane. And he was... big excess guy. He was drinking and eating and, you know, just off the rails. Now, he's running every day. And now he exercises. And I was just with him in Utah. We went on an elk hunt together. And this guy's hunting. He's going up mountains and shit. Mm-hmm. He's, like, super healthy now. It's crazy. Yeah. And, I mean, he's like, I've never felt better in my life. Like, I feel so fucking good. It's like, I can't believe it took me so long to get on this path. See, I would do something like that, I think. Like, a trainer actually, you know. sitting down with you. With him, it just started with walking. Well, that's the thing. So I did buy a treadmill. Yeah. which has now become a clothes rack. But I did buy a treadmill, and I was walking out. I was like, oh, look at me. I'm like you, making a difference. And then my heart started going a little fast. And I was breathing a little heavy, but it was, you know, just because it had been like 30 minutes on the treadmill. And then I got afraid that I couldn't catch my breath, and I had a panic attack. And I was like, oh, this isn't good. And then every time I got on it, I immediately was like, oh, this isn't good. My breath, I'm out of breath, which it was fine. I mean, I was breathing fine. It was just psychological. It's all in my head. I have massive, like, panic attacks.
[135:00] Which is all from all the anxiety. Like I'm sure if one thing got corrected, the other would correct. 100%. I like you. You're a really good guy. I want you to be better. I want you to be healthier. That's why I'm pursuing this line of discussion. It's an intervention. No, not really. But you know what? One thing that would really help? Huh. Putting your treadmill in front of a television and watching a movie. Yeah. So that's what I was doing. Well, that is what I was doing. It's a great way to do it. Yeah, I was watching Lord of the Rings because I was like, I want to do the walk to Mordor thing. You know, it's a little nerdy, but I love Lord of the Rings. And I was like, and that's walking. Like, I can walk. Yeah. And so I was doing that, but then I was like doing some incline because I was like, I'm really going to test myself here. I probably shouldn't have done that. Start slow. Start with a flat. Hard or slow as I should have. Yeah. This is one of the things that we've done, these comedian workouts. I bring comics in, and we have a gym next door. Okay. And the first thing I tell them before we do it, I go, you are not going to get exhausted. You're not going to get exhausted, and I'm not going to push you. Right. What we're going to do is we're just going to do a series of movements, very gradually build your body up to the point where you can start doing more. Yeah. And that's the way to do it. Oh, fuck. You're sore getting out of bed. Fuck all that. You need to build up. Like, if you try to do what I do. Like for the first day, it'd be terrible for you. But you could do what I do eventually and be just like me. Whereas like I came here today, I feel fine. I feel great. But that's the thing. It's like you have to get your body to a resilience point. You got to build it up. But I think you should build it up slowly. Yes. And the one of the best ways to do it is to do cardio where you're watching a good movie, because you just get captivated by the movie. You know, you're on a fucking elliptical machine just watching a movie. That's why I watched John Wick so many times. It started during Sober October. I was like, you know, I was... Just thinking about this fucking revenge movie. Yeah. Just keeps you going. Or anything that captivates your attention span and takes your mind off of the fact that you're breathing a little heavy. And you're not even breathing really heavy. No, and even whenever I had the full freak out, I was fine. And even after it was done, I was like, what the fuck were you freaking out about? Yeah. But then it just sticks in my head. Like, it always just, I don't know. Well, you have an interesting head. the way you're interested in all these different things, that also could turn against you. Boy, does it. It's why I've slept with the TV on since I was three years old. Have you really? Yeah. To this day, sleep with the TV on? Sleep with the TV on. It has to. Wow. Yeah, I can't be alone with my thoughts. ever, ever. It's too much. That's interesting. Yeah, it's like... You never, like, meditate or anything like that? I've tried and, like... I can do it. Like I can, you know, not try to... have zero thoughts, but just let the thought come, let the thought go, you know, all that kind of stuff. But I don't feel any different afterwards. And I've done it for like months at a time. Really? Yeah, it just does nothing. I just, uh, No. I just try to... like suffocate it. I just try to suffocate the voices. Not voices, but the thoughts. Just with distractions. Well, I think that's one of the interesting things about people. One of the things that I really love about doing this podcast is I get to talk to so many different kinds of people. And there's a lot of narrow-minded people that think that everybody should live one way, and everybody should think one way and behave one way, and this is the right way. I don't think that's real. And I think there's a lot of different, very interesting, creative people that their brains work different than everybody else's. And that's a great thing. and your burden is that you can't be alone with your thoughts. But that's also why you produce so much great content, because you can't be alone with your thoughts, so you're always... You're always engaging with stuff have to be distracted. So why not distract myself with you know, but it's also you distracting yourself with stuff that's very I mean, it's really because of all these facts and all this information that you've acquired and all the stuff that you've put out there in the world, you've, like, changed a lot of people's perspective on things. You've given people a lot of stuff to think about, you know, and that's a great service. It really is. Yeah. He doesn't really think about it. It's the opposite of Real Housewives. what you're doing. Well, I wouldn't go that far, but it provides a service for me. But, yeah, no, I'd... Yeah, I guess I never really think about it like that, that people really get anything out of it. Oh, dude, I get a lot out of your page. That's why I'm always sending you interesting information. I know. Which is fun because some of it's stuff that I have heard about, and I'm like – I did a video on that like a long, long time ago, but a lot of it isn't. It's like, holy, I never knew, which that's, One of my favorite... start
[140:00] to a sentence is did you know like when someone comes up to me and says hey did you know i'm immediately like oh come on come on and there's times where like oh i already knew it but it's like oh well that's cool that that's cool you knew it but yeah whenever they follow that up with like something i didn't know oh man that's like one of my favorite feelings in the world me too is learning something that i didn't know yeah especially something really wild yes yes known you're like how do people not know that side of that person and some of it's not even cool like the henry ford shit like i didn't know that well yeah yeah whoa yeah not cool like good no i know what i mean but yeah but but it's right it's interesting to know that there's you know some of our most celebrated people are monsters we have like gandhi mother theresa yeah um you know henry ford cesar chavez we don't you know i think most of those people were complete scumbag i mean did anything good, but... I mean, Gandhi, you know. Was Mother Teresa that bad? Real bad. What was Mother Teresa's deal? So Mother Teresa had a... She would heal the sick and all that BS. But she basically just had a giant concrete storage room that she would put sick people in and give all the money that was being donated to her to the Vatican. not use it to treat any of them. Really? Because she believed that, like, suffering brought you closer to God. So she would just walk up and down the rows of sick, dying people, like... look how close to God I am Yeah, she's a horrible person. Really? Yeah. So she could have helped them with medication? I mean, I think they were giving them, like, you know, very basic things, but, like, you know, they're sleeping on, like, concrete floors. Like, meanwhile, she's getting millions done, Angel. Like, Princess Diana, you know, is giving all this money to Mother Teresa. And she's just this frail old, you know, nun, so you're a nun the wiser. But, yeah, she's just, like... funneling it right out to the Vatican. And was she portraying her role very differently than the reality of it? Yeah, it's the reason why she became Mother Teresa to everybody. It's this sort of patron saint of, which I don't know what she is the saint of, if anything. But in most people's eyes, that's a... a good person. Like, oh, you're just like, you know, Mother Teresa's synonymous, like how Einstein is, with being smart. Teresa's with like caring and kindness and virtue. And she was just sending all the money to the Vatican. Yeah. The vast majority of the Vatican and just having a, you know, a torture chamber, you know, people were just, Suffering. Constantly. So you think you're going to go to Mother Teresa and she's going to take care of you. Of course. And you just get locked in a basement. Yeah. Yeah, you get locked in this giant concrete room with basically no windows, no sunlight getting in. And people just having whatever, dysentery or whatever disease they are. Just diarrhea all over your bed sheets and just slowly slip away. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, not good. It's like a frat house. The whole Vatican thing is so strange. That's one of the places that when I went to, I was a little weirded out. I was like, yeah, you guys have so much money. A lot of money. There's billions of dollars in artwork there. You walk right away, this is kind of crazy. They have masterpieces just kind of stacked all over the place. It's almost like they're hoarders for creative art. Yes. Which, I mean, art is an embezzlement scheme anyways, but... Most of it is. You think? Yeah. You don't think Hunter Biden was getting paid all that money because his art was amazing? What are you trying to say? Well, I mean, who am I to judge the talent level of an artist? It is an interesting way to launder money, right? Yeah, and they do it. I mean, there's no – like, what's to make a painting, like $70 million, and then one from an artist you've never heard of sells for like $35 million? Especially modern art. which is like very easy to make I don't give a fuck what anybody says there's one that sold there's one that sold for god I want to say it was like tens of millions of dollars might have been like 60 million dollars, but it's basically like a a red stripe of paint, a black stripe of paint, and a red stripe of paint. And it's famous. And so there was this... Christie's or Sotheby's one of those auctions one of those and I this thing got auctioned off for this fucking preposterous amount of money and you're like what is happening here like is this a scheme is this like how is this it's gonna be how is this how does this represent such an insane amount of generational wealth for just this stupid painting that you could make in a couple of hours not even in a couple hours an hour well you just don't get it I know. I'm stupid. I'm on culture. It's amazing to me. See if you can find that painting. It's really crazy. When you see it, it's really...
[145:00] crazy like okay this is you're you're pissing that's it that's it that's it How much is that one, Jamie? Wow. I'm afraid to tell you, I think... That's amazing, though. I don't know if this one was. This is actually on the top of the article. That's really beautiful. I mean, it is kind of beautiful. That's the one I'm talking about. Oh, my God. Does that say 105 million? 110 million? No, it's different ones. Yes, now the list. Let me find the picture in the list. Oh, there's that Jackson Pollock. That's it right there. 186 million. So Mark Rothko is a pretty well-known artist. Look at that. That is $186 million. Which is crazy because I think a lot of the Rothko paintings are like that. And yeah, he's like... Oh, yeah, I think there's the Jackson. Are those Pollocks? $300 million. Look at this one. Yeah. Cooning. 300 million. Do you know about the whole CIA connection with modern art? Do you know that? with modern... Oh, there's the Jetson Paul. Do you know that? Do you know the PSYOP? With modern art? Yeah. No. Oh. No. I'm so happy to tell you this. Oh, my God. Okay. So the CIA, during the time of Jackson Pollock. Okay. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is while we were in the middle of the Cold War. The CIA started this thing for modern art to pump up American art because we didn't have any art that compared with the classics from Russia. Right, right. So, yes, there's a documented basis to CIA modern arts psyop. This is from Perplexity, our AI sponsor. The CIA secretly supported the international promotion of American abstract expressionism during the Cold War. So what actually happened? In the 1950s, the CIA funded the Congress for Cultural Freedom, a Paris-based organization that sponsored magazines, concerts, conferences, and exhibitions. It presented itself as an independent cultural organization while covertly advancing an anti-Soviet agenda. So American abstract expressionalism, the work of Jackson Pollock, Rothkau, Willem de Kooning, those guys that we just saw fit the agenda. individuality and experimentation could be presented as evidence of American intellectual freedom, in contrast to the ideological constraints associated with Soviet socialist realism. The paintings didn't need to contain an explicit political message, their freedom of form was the message. So how the PSYOP worked. Indirect funding, money moved through cultural organizations and intermediaries rather than appearing as overt CIA sponsorship. This is described as a long leash approach. International exposure, exhibitions held, established, American paintings, prestige abroad. Historians have identified CIA backing behind the new American painting which toured Europe in 1958 to 1959. How did this become so famous and so valuable? Right. Fucking CIA. That's so weird. I mean, it does make perfect sense. Say people brought us MKUltra. Yeah. Like, they engineered so many very weird and twisted aspects of our society. Yeah, well, there's all the connections, or what people think are connections, you know, with, like, the music scene in the 60s. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Because, like, so many of them were going. Strange times in Laurel Canyon. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, like Morrison's dad. Jim Morrison's dad being... Navy Admiral. He's an intelligence agent. He's the Navy Admiral during the Gulf of Tonkin. Yeah. He was responsible for the Gulf of Tonkin. Yeah. And Jim Morrison used to always, in interviews, ask about his parents, he would just say they died in a car wreck. Okay. Yeah, that was always his response. They got in a car wreck. They hit a group of Indians. That's what he said. Hmm? Hmm? Is his dad still alive? Yeah, his parents were alive. They were in one documentary about the Doors I Watch. They finally interviewed his dad and asked him what he thought about Jim Morrison. It was kind of weird, but it was like back in the... maybe 80s or so. Yeah, the thing is, they were good. They were really good. The Doors? Yeah. Oh, yeah. The question is, can you really engineer that kind of creativity and talent? Well, that's where I get kind of skeptical about that side of it, is that... Like, or were there a lot of military kids in that area because it's where there's, you know, there's a lot of military... base in that area, and are there just naturally going to be a lot of kids, and kids tend to rebel against their parents. Well, if my parents are involved with the military, you know, screw the military, I'm going to make, I'm going to get involved with the group that doesn't like the military. Yes. And... and 90% of them go on to be teachers, lawyers, doctors whatever the hell and then there's like 10% who just happen to be good musicians like how much of that is like is the CIA just plucking kids of you know well people tend to definitely create like a picture that doesn't exist they tend to draw
[150:00] aligns and connect dots. We look for patterns that perhaps don't exist. But it's because so many patterns do exist. Well, and your brain's wired to look for patterns. That's why you can convince somebody of fake memories. It's why people will give whole explanations for an event that never occurred. But it's because they know the beginning and end, so they have to be able to connect that. Right. Because you have to have the pattern. I mean, optical illusions... Like when you see an optical illusion, the reason why it's an illusion is because your brain is trying in there somewhere to establish a pattern. What was that one that we looked at the other day, Jamie, where they look like two different colors until you – put your fingers over the line in between them and then they all of a sudden become one color. It is so many of those. Yeah, there's some interesting ones with that, or like where you'll have like a Coca-Cola can that looks red in the picture, but it's actually all black and white. It's just because there's these tiny green lines. Oh, yeah. Okay, I remember seeing this one. That's crazy. Yeah. Like that thing right there. Make that large, please. That thing is... They're both the same color. Yeah. And you don't realize it until you take your fingers and cover the line. And then you go, what in the fuck is that? How is that possible? It's because of a... What do they call it? Because of a... Jesus. What is it called again, Jamie? What's that? Corn sweet. It's called the corn sweet illusion. Yeah, that's Nuts that one's nuts because you you would swear to God that the lower one is a lighter color than the upper one and Until you block out that line in the center, and you're just like, holy shit. Oh, there's so many of those, too. Like, there's so many, they're just so, they're fascinating to me, of, like, how your brain can trick itself. Yeah, it's just the whiteness of the top of the bottom one that makes it seem like it's a different color below it. But that's because in patterns, that's how it would be. Like, in anywhere else in nature, something had that wide of a top, then surely it must be a lighter color. And the thing that's darker, like that dark, would normally be darker. your brain fucks with you that much yeah it's trying its damn just to you know get you where it needs to be but right it'll definitely and i think that applies to like connecting these dots oh yeah like jim morrison's dad wasn't it that's the cia engineer the hippie movement right which i think there's some evidence that they probably were involved in that as well there's definitely some evidence they were involved in promoting hip-hop Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, with the hippie movement, too, there is evidence that they were, you know... helping to stage protests and like, yeah, organized protests that, um, even like, was it Gloria Steinem was working with the CIA at one point to stage, you know, like these things. So like, there's always been that version of it, but then it's just, you know, whether or not all of it is because of that. No. I don't think you can engineer Hendrix. No, and... Right? I've heard that argument. Hendrix wasn't even like an anti-war person. Hendrix didn't give a damn. He was in the war. He was in Vietnam. You know, he had songs that were anti-war. No. It was not necessarily a song called Machine Gun. Well, yeah, yeah, yeah. But, I mean, as far as, like, outwardly – so not necessarily the music, but, like, outwardly speaking against the war. He was not necessarily one of the, like, you know – He spoke out against it on stage. Against the war? Yeah. I don't remember ever seeing him actually speak out fully against the war. I thought he was... He's speaking out against the war and against violence on stage in the live version of Machine Gun. Oh, maybe so. Yeah. Well, no, I think it was more like in his day-to-day life. He used to get really angry with people who would criticize the war if they said certain – or were critical – not the war, but of soldiers. I think he used to get really upset about that. closely associated with opposition to war. Well, he was a young man. I mean, he died, and he's only 27. Machine Gun is the clearest example. Released on Band of Gypsies in 1970, it portrays the brutality of war through lyrics and guitar sounds resembling gunfire. Fucking great song. Explosions and cries. Hendrix dedicated it to people fighting in Vietnam and Berkeley and within themselves, connecting the battlefield violence with conflict at home. Fuck, that guy was good. Yeah. But even that's not necessarily anti-war. Like, you know, depicting war isn't necessarily being anti. I mean, now going on stage and saying, like, you know, anti-war things. But I think he was more like... I know he got in a fight with... was it like Pete Townsend or Mick Jagger was somebody because they were criticizing like the troops who were in Vietnam. And he was like, hey, hey, hey, like, hold on. Like, I was a troop in Vietnam. Like, well, they're.
[155:00] The problem is the, like, yeah, being against, like, the government. Yeah. I'm sure, but. Yeah. Yeah. But, like, Jim Morrison wasn't, like, anti-war. He just liked to pull his dick out. He just liked pulling his dick out, which he does. Chuck Lorre was here the other day. Yeah. And he told us that he went to see Jim Morrison in concert. He didn't even get through the first song. He tried to pull his dick off, and they came on the stage with horseback to remove him. They're on horses. I mean, it was just such an animal. Backstage argument, not a documented fist fight. Jimi Hendrix and Pete Townsend clash at the Monterey Pop Festival, June 18, 1967, over who would perform first? neither wanted to follow the other's explosive stage act. Read the quote. It was just Jimmy on a chair playing at me, playing at me like, don't fuck with me, you little shit. Standing on a chair playing guitar at him. That's what Townsend said Jimmy did. Attacking him by his playing. Not only that, imagine him playing in front of you going, I'm not following that. That's when he set his guitar on fire. Yeah, it was Townsend's Oh, so it wasn't Townsend's guitar? I've always heard that it was Townsend's guitar that he was playing. I mean, it could have been. They might have just left that fact out of this. Oh, so they wanted to play first. So the Who wanted to play first. Yeah, because they didn't want to follow Hendrix. Townsend smashed his guitar during their set, and Hendrix later famously set his own guitar on fire. Yeah. Wow. Interesting. Yeah, there's some interesting stories like that, too, like with Jerry Lee Lewis, you know— Oh, yeah. With Chuck Berry lighting his piano on fire. And said, follow on that motherfucker. Yeah. Amazing. I mean, he almost killed a couple people. May or may not have killed a couple of his wives. May or may not have. Seems like he probably might have been. Tried to kill Elvis. Did he try to kill Elvis? Yeah, he showed up drunk as hell at Graceland and tried ramming his car through the gates and stepped out waving a gun in the air saying, I'm here to, like, let's see who's the, or he said, like, let's see who's the real king now. And I was trying to kill him. And Elvis, meanwhile, is inside watching him through the security camera, you know, going like, oh, you got to get down here, you know. And cops show up and Jerry Lee Lewis gets back in his car with the window still up, and just shatters in his car. Yeah, that guy was a loose fucking cannon. Yeah, I'd say. Yeah. I mean, well, Jimmy Swaggart's cousin. That's right. Yeah. Did you make a video about that? I don't think it made one about them being cousins, but I made one about him being a lunatic. Yeah, he was a legit lunatic. Yeah, absolute psychopath. Jimmy Swaggart's a lunatic. And their other cousin was Mickey Gilley, I think. He was also a very famous country singer. Wow. Jimmy Swaggart and Jerry Lee Lewis. Well, it's interesting the preacher connection to entertainment. Well, it's the same. It's one and the same? Yes. Especially that type of preacher, like a televangelist is... Oh yeah, there they are. Jimmy Swaggart. and Jerry Lee Lewis. Look at them. They're both like psychos. Let me see that. Close in on that picture again. Look at, they both look like complete psychos. If I was alone in a room with these guys and they were drinking, especially Swagger, they'd be like, I gotta get the fuck out of here. Look at his eyes. Yeah. Like, he looks dangerous. Yes. He looks like a fighter. He looks dangerous. Yeah, and then Jerry Lee loses. I have sinned. Remember that? I have sinned. He got busted with hookers. Didn't he get busted a second time? Oh, I have sinned. It was amazing. Didn't he get busted a second time after that? I wanted to say he did, but maybe not. You know, Kennison was a preacher, too. Yeah. Yeah. Which there's, that's a perfect crossover too. Perfect. Just that stage presence. I mean, obviously that's a different kind of stage presence. I'm sure you've been to church. Churches, if someone's a good preacher, they're entertaining. Yes. That's part of it. Part of it is your charisma. Yeah. When I was a kid, we went to this like non-denominational church and like our preacher was like, yeah, very captivating. Everybody loved him. He's very friendly. And he was a good guy. I mean, there was no like dark side to him as far as I know. But there's definitely ones that have a big old dark side. Oh my goodness. I mean, you liked what you liked. What was the first one? What was the first one? 88 and then 91, three years later, they had their eye on him. I've sinned against you, my lord. Did it? Yeah, like a couple days ago. Oh, that's right. And Timmy Faye died like a while back, but poor Jim. Rest in peace, I suppose. Yeah. And who was the gal? Tammy Faye? No, the other gal that he had the affair with. Oh, oh, um... Thank you. Oh, boy. I always get the Clinton scandal. She's very pretty. That one mixed up, like, names-wise. Jessica Hahn. Jessica Hahn. Yeah, that's it. And Jessica Hahn went on to become Sam Kinison's girlfriend.
[160:00] Oh, really? Yeah. I didn't know that. That's interesting. And went on the Howard Stern Show and talked shit about Sam Kinison. That's amazing. God, that's a good... Yeah. Wow, I did not know that. Yeah. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah, you should put a video on it. 100%. 100%. Yeah, I never knew that one. Yeah, Jessica Hahn had a fling with Sam Kinison. God... Yeah, there she is. She was hot back in the Disney. See if there's a photo of Jessica Hahn with Sam Kinnison. Look at her. Dirty. My God. Dirty, hot, lots of makeup. That's a welcome. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's her. Sam Kinison and Jessica Hahn. Oh, is that the Wild Thing video? Remember when they did Wild Thing? Yeah, Wild Thing. That's her. I'm pretty sure that's her. Yeah. That's her. Go back to that last picture. She's hot as fuck. Super hot. Woo! Jim Baker, let's go. Yeah, so Jim Baker, I mean, my God. Yeah, killing it. How could you fucking be mad at him? I mean, who wouldn't be tempted by that? That's what I'm saying. I've sinned. Oh, my God. I've sinned, my Lord. I mean, it could be the Hugh Grant situation, you know, with Devin's Ralph. Like, you know, Jim Baker went the opposite way. Yeah, he was driving around getting street hookers. Yeah. That's what you want. You want somebody to cheat somebody with a F up up. Hot. Because then it's like, god damn. Yeah, hot. Big I am sinned. Boy, what a good actor. They all kind of are. For me, he will be that photo with him and Jeremy Lewis forever. Yeah. The young man. You look in that young man's eyes. Yeah. The darkness. Do you ever watch Great Bowls of Fire? Yeah. It's Alec Baldwin, isn't it? Places of Jimmy Swagger. Oh, that's right. Yeah, and Dennis Quaid is Jerry Lewis. Dennis Quaid was awesome. It was Jerry Lewis. Oh. Jerry Lee Lewis. I love Big Dennis Crack. Oh, he's great. You ever seen Breaking Away? That's another one. Yeah, look at that. Yeah, there they are. Wow. It's actually like perfect casting. Yeah. Like Alec Baldwin is a good... a pretty convincing Jimmy Swagger I haven't seen that movie in a long time. Oh, yeah, me either. There's Winona Ryder, too, I think, isn't there? They played the cousin that they married. Yeah. She's crazy. She started stealing things. That was odd. I think people just, like, the pressure of that kind of fame and that... life. For a lot of people, it's just too much. They just go crazy. Oh, they're all nuts. I mean, James Brown was a lunatic. Oh, James Brown was amazing. He tried to kill Joe Tex at a restaurant. I mean, at a club. He got in a shootout with the cops in a high-speed chase because someone was using his bathroom. Someone was taking a shit in his personal bathroom. Which is actually understandable. Yeah, it was like across four states, wasn't it? They shot his tires out. videos ever is that news interview. Oh my God. It's like, we don't need to ask him. You're out on bail. I'm out of love. And he just keeps like reciting his song lyrics. He's like, I feel good. Exactly. Shooting erupts over James Brown's height. His height. Nobody just. Please. In at Morris say a man shot his friend when the two of them argued over James Brown's height. Oh, was James Brown. I thought it was too. That's hilarious. The guy died. He got shot and killed. He was 73 years old. He got killed over an argument. It was unclear exactly how tall he was. I don't know. All right, Cody. Listen, man. Thank you very much for being here. Oh, absolutely. Always fun to talk to you. Dude, thanks for having me again. My pleasure. Yeah. Like I said, I love your page. Your book is Where Did That Come From? The Hidden History of Everyday Words and Phrases. Cody Tucker out now. Is there an audio version of this? No, not yet, but I am working on one. I got the person who did the graphics, which I'm going to give a shout out, Carly. Amazing job with making it look like an old school book. It does. Yeah, her husband's a comic, K.P. Burke, a great dude. He does a lot of this kind of stuff, like the long form history stuff. Oh, so he's going to read it? No, no, no, but I'm just saying, hey, he just does that. He's a very interesting guy you should check out at some point. He does really cool history, like long form videos. his channel? What is it called? I don't know the channel. What's his name? KP Burke. He does stuff with like the SDR, you know, like Ralph Sutton and like... Jason Ellis and like all those guys. Oh, okay. Yeah, good dude. But his wife set everything up and she's going to do like the audio book and everything. Oh, dope. But are you going to read it? No, I'm going to read it. Okay, good. Beautiful. You got to read it. Yeah, that would be very disappointing if you... No, I'm... Definitely going to run. All right. Beautiful. Well, thanks for being here, brother. Thanks, man. Thanks for having me. My pleasure. All right. Bye, everybody.
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