Paul Rosolie Combats Narco-Traffickers to Shield Amazon Tribes

保罗·罗索利对抗毒贩以守护亚马逊部落 未接触部落马什科皮罗（Mashco Piro）氏族的生存，取决于能否在未来18个月内守住最后一条30万英亩的土地走廊，以免步步蚕食的贩毒集团道路与非法采伐彻底毁灭其祖传领地。 在本期节目中，环保人士保罗·罗索利（Paul Rosolie）讲述了他通过其组织“丛林守护者”（Jungle Keepers）保护亚马逊雨林的惊险经历与前线努力。他分享了一次与未接触部落马什科皮罗族令人瞩目的初次接触经历，详细介绍了他们的生活方式、传统武器以及对非法伐木者的反击。对话还涉及全副武装的毒贩带来的日益严峻的危险、罗索利遭遇巨蟒和蜘蛛猴等丛林野生动物的亲身经历，以及促使其保护工作得以扩大规模的关键资金转折点。 Paul Rosolie 创立的保护组织 Jungle Keepers 已在秘鲁亚马逊地区保护了超过 13 万英亩的原始雨林，但正面临非法伐木工、非法金矿盗采者以及武装贩毒集团日益严峻的致命报复与暴力威胁。 (3:59) 生活在雨林深处的未接触部落 Mashco Piro 仍保持着纯粹石器时代的游牧狩猎生活，其对外来者持有的高度警惕与致命敌意主要源于 19 世纪末至 20 世纪初橡胶垄断商与殖民者残酷压榨所留下的世代创伤。 (19:51) Jungle Keepers 团队利用超长焦设备首次记录下与约 50 名 Mashco Piro 战士接触的高清影像与原声，这也是历史上首次清晰记录该原始部落的面貌以及他们对丛林砍伐行为的质问。 (32:04) 在经历了一场以香蕉为信物并互换衣服的和平接触后，该部落次日清晨便突袭了一艘路过的本地船只并用七英尺长箭射穿村民身躯，反映出该原始荒野中极端残酷且不可预测的生存法则。 (43:08)

Naturalist Paul Rosolie argues that Amazonian conservation has escalated from ecological preservation into a dangerous, high-stakes defense of uncontacted indigenous tribes against expanding logging and narco-trafficking networks. Through direct encounters with the isolated Mashco Piro, Rosolie contends that securing legally held land corridors is the only viable mechanism to safeguard ancestral cultures and prevent catastrophic violence. Encountering the Mashco Piro and Material Isolation (9:24) Rosolie recounts an unprecedented, documented encounter with an uncontacted clan of roughly 50 Mashco Piro warriors along an Amazonian riverbank. Armed with seven-foot bows and razor-sharp bamboo-tipped arrows, the nomadic hunters demonstrated sophisticated craftsmanship despite having no access to metallurgy, pottery, or boiling water in their alluvial environment. Supported by indigenous anthropologist Romel, who previously initiated peaceful dialogue in 2013, the team provided boatloads of plantains while the tribe's women executed an orchestrated diversion to gather yucca and bananas inland. Rosolie emphasizes that the tribe views heavy machinery and chainsaws not as tools, but as destructive entities felling their sacred environment. Communicating across a severe linguistic divide, tribal members questioned why outsiders were cutting down trees, viewing deforestation as an existential threat akin to killing their gods. Captured on high-definition telephoto lenses, this encounter provided unprecedented visual and audio records while underscoring the tribe's urgent demand to remain unmolested. Cartel Infiltration and the Legal Land Defense (51:17) The operational reality of conservation has shifted into an active conflict zone against organized crime. Rosolie details how drug cartels exploit the lawless rainforest interior, hacking new roads toward uncontacted territories, creating concealed airstrips inside dense forest canopies, and intercropping coca behind commercial papaya fields. This expansion directly endangers environmental monitors and local allies; cartel hitmen previously ambushed Rosolie's driver at gunpoint demanding the drone operator's location, while an allied police officer was struck in the chest during a drive-by shotgun ambush. To counter this encroachment, Rosolie's organization, Junglekeepers, focuses on acquiring legal land concessions to establish contiguous protected corridors. Because building criminal cases on unassigned land can take months, legal ownership immediately grants law enforcement statutory authority to evict or arrest armed trespassers. Managing 130,000 acres and targeting a 300,000-acre threshold, Rosolie estimates that securing the entire northern boundary requires scaling their funding base to 50,000 donors or securing approximately $20 million from philanthropic benefactors. Canopy Ecology, Apex Predators, and Indigenous Lore (113:42) Beyond territorial defense, Rosolie grounds his conservation work in direct ecological observation, including ascending ironwood trees over 120 feet to witness the aerial "Mist River"—a massive current of atmospheric moisture generated by canopy transpiration. Prolonged fieldwork tracking monogamous macaws demonstrated the birds' reliance on these slow-growing ironwoods, which require centuries to develop suitable nesting cavities. Rosolie argues that Western scientific skepticism often wrongly dismisses native reports, observing that two decades of field experience proved local indigenous accounts consistently describe empirical realities, such as algae-coated water snakes resembling spiky reptiles. Regarding dangerous fauna, he frames human survival around understanding behavioral boundaries—analogous to traffic laws on a highway. While apex predators like wild anacondas strike deliberately and lack social camaraderie, highly intelligent primates exhibit profound familial connection, mutual recognition, and emotional vulnerability. The Psychological Weight and Realities of Frontline Conservation (80:58) Rosolie rejects romanticized depictions of environmentalism, describing frontline conservation as a grueling, emotionally draining struggle against global apathy and industrial inertia. Lacking inherited wealth or advanced academic degrees, Rosolie built his career through direct field immersion, assisted early on by a pivotal book endorsement from Jane Goodall for *Mother of God* and sustained operational funding from entrepreneur Dax Dasilva's Age of Union. Despite high-profile media outreach and successful emergency fundraising campaigns—such as raising $150,000 in 48 hours to halt a cartel road—Rosolie highlights the severe personal toll of living under constant mortal threat. He reflects that prolonged exposure to violence and environmental loss permanently alters an individual, voicing a desire to eventually transition from frontline combat into an academic role once the conservation corridor reaches long-term territorial security. While Junglekeepers' acquisition model offers a practical blueprint for protecting intact ecosystems, Rosolie acknowledges that private concessions face escalating pressure from heavily armed criminal syndicates. The unresolved question remains whether private fundraising and under-resourced local police forces can expand territorial boundaries quickly enough to outpace cartel infrastructure before uncontacted clans suffer fatal contact or violent expulsion.

自然保护学者兼探险家保罗·罗索利（Paul Rosolie）指出，保护亚马逊雨林的核心已从单纯的生态观察转变为一场人道与生存防击战，唯有通过合法获取土地特许权并配合执法封锁，才能阻断毒枭与非法砍伐对马什科皮罗（Mashco Piro）隐生部落及原始雨林的毁灭性侵害。 马什科皮罗族的原始现实与首次接触 (6:48) 罗索利与人类学家罗梅尔（Romel）记录了与隐生部落马什科皮罗族罕见的正面接触。该族群生活在无石料的冲积雨林中，缺乏金属、陶器与现代药物，甚至不具备水会沸腾或结冰的概念，所有生存物资完全依赖竹子、野藤与植物纤维。他们使用的箭矢长约7英尺，箭头经火烤硬化且边缘剃磨得如剃刀般锋利，战士能使用巨弓在40米外精准猎杀林冠上的蜘蛛猴。 在一次河流对峙中，罗梅尔推过一整船芭蕉作为和平赠礼，男性战士冲入水中争夺食物，而女性族人则借掩护潜入后方农田拔取木薯。该部落向外界提出了一个根本疑问：“你们为什么砍伐树木？”在他们认知中，伐木机械是对森林神明的屠杀。团队利用800毫米长焦镜头记录下了清晰的影像与声音，画面中部分族人腰系手工织绳，部分人则佩戴着从伐木营地掠夺来的现代尼龙伞绳。 毒枭势力渗透与保护前线的致命暴力 (92:57) 随着跨国贩毒集团与非法采金者渗入无人管辖的偏远丛林，雨林保护已演变成武装冲突。罗索利透露，毒枭往往向极端贫困的当地人提供少量资金与电锯以开辟非法据点，并在大面积木瓜农田后隐蔽间作古柯；为掩护秘密飞机跑道，甚至掏空150至160英尺高的大树内部。当保护组织利用无人机监控雨林时，团队成员旋即沦为贩毒集团的猎杀目标。 一线人员面临着持续的致命危险：当地司机佩西（Percy）曾遭持枪伏击，被手枪抵头盘问无人机操控者的行踪；在一次险情解除后仅数小时，曾与团队合作的秘鲁警察盟友便在河畔营地遭毒贩驱船射击，导致罗索利的密友胸口中枪受重伤。罗索利强调，亚马逊有着暗杀环保领袖的残酷历史，如今的保护工作必须直面武装黑帮的正面清洗。 土地特许权机制与前线保护的资金困境 (51:17) 罗索利领导的“丛林守护者”（Junglekeepers）组织目前管理着13万英亩雨林，正全力争取再购入20万英亩以形成完整的祖传领地保护走廊。罗索利解释，许多居住在城市的第三代地主常将土地转租给伐木工或毒枭；一旦保护组织合法买下特许权，秘鲁警方即拥有明确的法定管辖权，可以直接抓捕非法入侵者并摧毁毒枭推进的道路网络。 然而，维系这一机制面临着巨大的资源瓶颈。地面团队依赖斯特凡（Stefan）管理护林员补给、装备及后勤系统，目前极度缺乏巡逻所需的燃料与物资，急需扩大至50,000名捐助者或筹集2000万美元资金。罗索利回顾道，在疫情期间项目濒临绝境时，正是企业家达克斯·达席尔瓦（Dax Dasilva）的基金注入才挽救了保护区，民间资金的介入是阻止林地沦陷的决定性屏障。 雨林生态感知、原住民真知与心理负荷 (80:58) 二十余年的丛林经验使罗索利深信原住民传闻的高度真实性，例如曾被西方学者视为荒谬的“长满绿色尖刺的怪蛇”，实地调查证实其仅是附生了大量坚硬水藻的水蛇。他指出，攀爬巨大的铁木树至120英尺高空能目睹雨林蒸腾出的“迷雾之河”（Mist River），而灵长类动物所表现出的高度触觉与情感连接，也与爬行动物纯粹感知危险的应激反应截然不同。 但长年目睹物种与领地被吞噬，给保护者带来了深重的心理创伤。罗索利将这一过程比作《魔戒》中背负重负的弗罗多，日复一日对抗庞大的经济熵增会彻底侵蚀内心。他坦言自己希望在确保30万英亩保护区永久安全后，能逐步退出前线高危行动，转型为大学教授并回归家庭，将一线保护的成功范式通过教育传承下去。 罗索利证实，保护亚马逊隐生部落不仅关乎珍稀生态，更是一场对抗有组织犯罪的人道救援；然而，在毒贩道路不断逼近与长期资金高度匮乏的现实下，民间特许保护区能否在资源耗尽前永久筑牢安全屏障，依然充满不确定性。

[43:08] Paul Rosolie: We, in every way possible said, 'We mean peace. We want friendship with you.' And then the next day, they attacked.

[0:00] - ... were standing there. Everyone is waiting, 'cause at any moment an arrow could just [0:04] fly through your neck, and there's people holding shotguns. And the [0:07] anthropologist, this little guy, is standing there in the front, and he's going, [0:10] "Enimole." He's going, "Brothers." And then it happened. Then you [0:14] start hearing people screaming, [0:17] "Mashco! Mashco!" And people are screaming and women are [0:21] lifting children and running into the huts and the dogs and chickens are going [0:25] nuts and— [0:25] - So fear, fear. [0:26] - Fear. He's going, "Look there. He has a bow. He has a bow." And we're looking [0:30] up the beach and there's just this clan walking down the beach with [0:34] these seven-foot bows and they're hunched over and they're pointing at us. They're going, [0:38] "Look at that one. Look, there's a gun there." And you can see them communicating [0:42] to each other and the butterflies are swirling off the beach and they can hit a spider [0:46] monkey out of the treetops at 40 meters. They can sneak [0:50] up and you will never know they're there. And so when that arrow passes through your [0:54] body, you'll only have a moment to realize it before you fall over. [0:58] In order for any of this to make sense, I have to show you this footage. [1:01] - And this has not been shown ever before. [1:05] - This is a world first. [1:08] - The following is a conversation with Paul Rosolie, his third time on the podcast. [1:12] Paul is a naturalist, explorer, writer and is someone who has [1:16] dedicated his life to protecting the Amazon rainforest and celebrating [1:20] the beauty of the natural world. [1:23] He has a new book coming out in a few days titled Jungle Keeper [1:27] that you should definitely go pre-order now. [1:30] It tells some intense stories about his time in the jungle over the [1:34] past several years, building up to a few epic recent events, including a new [1:42] extended encounter with a non-contacted tribe that we discuss in this podcast. [1:45] Both the book and audiobook are great. [1:49] I highly recommend it. If you would like to support Paul and his team [1:53] in their mission to protect the jungle, go to junglekeepers.org. [1:58] You can help with donations or [2:02] by spreading the word or checking out the gala that Paul is hosting in New York [2:06] on January 22nd in a few days. [2:10] They are doing all they can to help raise funds for the mission of [2:13] safeguarding as much of the rainforest as possible, [2:16] and I think it's a mission worth fighting for. [2:20] The Amazon jungle is one of the most special and beautiful places on Earth. [2:23] As an aside, allow me to look back [2:27] briefly and mention something that I've been struggling with a bit. [2:31] For context, I traveled to the Amazon rainforest with Paul a while back. [2:35] It was an adventure of a lifetime, with lots of crazy twists and turns. [2:39] We did record a podcast out there, literally in the jungle. [2:43] Episode 429, if you want to go check it out. It was awesome. [2:49] And we also recorded a bunch of disparate footage of the journey just for fun. [2:53] And I would still love to somehow [2:57] put all that together into a cohesive video in case it's interesting to someone. [3:01] But I've learned just how difficult it is [3:05] to organize and edit a pile of chaotically recorded footage like that. [3:09] So, let's see if I can pull it off. But in any case, this kind of raw [3:17] vlog-style video is something that I would love to be able to do more of [3:21] as a way to celebrate amazing human beings like Paul and others, [3:25] including everyday people who I meet on my travels. So, I'll keep trying, [3:32] tinkering, learning, and I ask for your patience and support along the way. [3:36] Now, back to our regularly scheduled programming. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast. [3:44] To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description where you [3:48] can also find links to contact me, ask questions, give [3:52] feedback, and so on. And now, dear friends, here's Paul Rosolie. [3:59] We've survived a challenging time out in the jungle about a year and a [4:03] half ago, and since then, your life has [4:06] increasingly gotten more intense. So, you've achieved [4:10] the incredible feat of saving now more than 130,000 acres of rainforest. [4:17] And the goal that you're working towards is protecting 200,000 acres more. [4:23] And doing so while facing extreme danger from narcos, [4:26] narco-traffickers, so-called Cocaine Mafia in an escalating [4:30] drug war. This is insane. These are new developments. [4:34] Illegal loggers, as we've talked about before. Gold miners, and the [4:38] incredible recent encounter with an uncontacted [4:41] tribe. And we'll talk about all of this. So your new [4:45] book, Jungle Keeper, opens with the killing of two loggers [4:49] by the warriors of an uncontacted tribe, the Mashco Piro, in August 2024. [4:57] And then you reveal that you had your own dramatic encounter with the tribe two [5:01] months later in October 2024. So if I may, let me read the opening of the book. [5:09] "Far out on the western edge of the Amazon rainforest, deep [5:13] in the Peruvian jungle, a pair of loggers plunged their [5:16] chainsaws into the buttressed roots of an ancient ironwood. An ironwood, or [5:23] shihuahuaco, of this size is a giant among giants, an [5:27] emergent sentinel that reaches heights of 160 feet, [5:31] towering over the rest of the canopy." I've read that many are [5:34] over 1,000 years old, by the way, as an aside. And you've found [5:39] ones that are 1,200 years old. [5:41] - Incredibly old. [5:43] - Anyway, you continue. "This particular tree had started its life as a [5:47] tiny sapling in the great jungle, a story that began before the [5:50] Spanish reached Peru, long before the United States was even a [5:54] dream. At a time when Leonardo da Vinci was still [5:58] honing his talents in a far away part of the world, through the [6:01] Renaissance, the First and Second World Wars, and the birth of our [6:05] grandparents." This tree was out there slowly [6:09] charging upward, anonymous, just one pillar among the billions [6:13] of others. But on this day, in August 2024, when the two loggers worked, this [6:20] witness of the centuries came crashing down to the canopy [6:23] with such cataclysmic power that it shook the earth. [6:28] And then you go on to talk about how the shaking of the earth was [6:31] felt and heard by the uncontacted tribe. [6:34] You go on to describe how these particular loggers were killed [6:39] by the uncontacted tribe of [6:42] Mashco Piro. What do we know about these warriors of the uncontacted tribe? [6:48] - We know that across the Amazon basin there's still perhaps thousands of clans of [6:55] uncontacted peoples, people that are living in [6:59] nomadic isolation in what remains of the intact Amazon basin and want to remain that way. [7:06] And so, what happened with these loggers was that [7:10] local people told them, "Don't go out there. Don't go [7:14] into these territories." And what happens is that people that aren't from... There's this thing with [7:18] the jungle, people don't believe that [7:22] it's as wild as the legends say. And so when they say there's [7:25] calatos out there, there's wild people out there, [7:29] these loggers from another region go, "Yeah, that's just some story. [7:33] We're fine. We'll go. We have shotguns." They don't realize [7:37] you're dealing with a civilization of people that is [7:40] still nomadic, still uses bamboo-tipped arrows, still [7:44] lives naked in the Amazon rainforest, has knowledge of medicines that we've [7:48] yet to encounter or may never discover, and that they can [7:52] hit a spider monkey out of the treetops at 40 meters. And so [7:56] while you're using a chainsaw, they can sneak up and you will never know [8:00] they're there. And so when that arrow passes through your body, [8:04] you'll only have a moment to realize it before you fall over. [8:07] - And we're looking at something you posted on your Instagram- [8:11] ... which are the arrows that they use, which are bigger than you. [8:15] So they're like six or seven feet. [8:16] - Six, seven feet. More like seven feet. And that's- [8:19] - Look how sharp that is. [8:19] - ... incredibly sharp. They cure it over the fire and they have a way of sharpening it. [8:23] That edge of bamboo becomes incredibly knife-sharp. You can cut meat with it [8:27] easily; I've done it. These arrows... Look at that. I mean, I'm [8:31] 5'9". That's easily a seven-foot arrow. [8:34] - Yeah, so for people who are just listening, this "arrow" is really a spear. [8:38] Some people would think it was a spear, but they're shooting this thing with a gigantic bow. [8:43] That's crazy. [8:45] - Yeah, and so to be holding that... Look at that, they even twist the [8:49] fletching so the arrow spins in the air. They have incredible [8:52] craftsmanship, and then you see all the little string on there is plant fibers they've [8:56] woven, and then this is them. [9:01] - Yeah, the warriors of the tribe. [9:03] - The warriors of the tribe. And so the fact that we're sitting here talking [9:07] on microphones, and that we have airplanes and cell phones and all the things we have in [9:11] the modern world, and there's still... We still live in this age where there's, [9:15] right now at this moment, people living out in the jungle who have been [9:19] there since before history, is an incredible thing. [9:24] - Let me look this up on Perplexity: what are the technologies [9:29] we modern humans have that the Mashco Piro do [9:33] not? It's just interesting to think about the kind of [9:36] technologies we take for granted. Energy and power, [9:40] obviously all the electricity generation, grids, batteries, solar panels, and [9:44] electric motors, metals and materials, mass-produced steel, [9:47] aluminum, advanced alloys, plastics, composites, glass, [9:51] concrete, all of those things. [9:52] - All of those things. [9:52] - Tools, of course, and machinery. The infrastructure of [9:56] roads and bridges and buildings, and the [10:00] weapons of war—everything but the spears and arrows that they have—and the [10:04] medicine and biology. Of course they probably have complicated medicines [10:10] that they've developed for their own— ...that are available within the jungle. [10:14] - I mean, that entire list is no. [10:16] - No. [10:17] - I mean, metal, I think you have to be able to excavate into the earth [10:21] and forge metal. [10:23] These people don't even... As one of the local anthropologists said to me, a [10:27] Peruvian anthropologist, he said, "You know, people think of them as [10:32] Stone Age tribes." And he was like, "They don't have stones." He's like, "They don't..." [10:36] So they don't know that water... They see water that they drink. They don't [10:39] know that water freezes, because they've never seen it. They don't know that water boils, [10:43] because they don't even make clay pots. They just have their bamboo and their string. [10:48] And so they're living an incredibly simple life. So all of [10:52] that, I mean, even a camera is a miracle [10:55] to them. You have to bend your mind to even understand how far back they are. [10:58] It's like looking into thousands of years ago, like the Stone Age. [11:03] - When they hear the sounds of the chainsaws, the sounds of machinery in the distance- [11:09] ...I wonder how they can possibly comprehend what that is. [11:12] - I think they view it as a demonic destructive force. And when I show you the [11:19] encounter that we had, we got a few takeaways. [11:23] We left with more questions than answers, but one of the things they were [11:27] able to communicate across the language barrier was, "Why are you [11:31] cutting down the trees?" They don't like it. [11:34] - Yeah. That represents to them the [11:38] danger and destruction that the outside world brings. [11:42] - They see us as the destroyers of worlds. [11:45] - So tell me about this encounter in October of 2024. [11:52] - So, in order to tell you about that encounter I think we need to [11:55] orient people into where we're talking about. We're talking about this river that [11:59] runs through the western edge of the Amazon rainforest that you know [12:03] well now, after spending time there with me. It's a high [12:07] tributary of the Amazon where you have the main river channel and [12:11] then smaller and smaller and smaller tributaries. And the smaller [12:15] you get, the less trafficked they are. And so this river has [12:18] remained wild through the centuries. And [12:22] even during the '90s when there was a mahogany boom where people went out for it, [12:26] trees, there were very few people going up this river. [12:32] 20 years ago when I first got to the region and people told me there were uncontacted tribes [12:36] out there, it was always in the realm of something... [12:39] You know, it's like people say, "There's Bigfoot," or, "Don't go there, [12:43] it's haunted." It was like a tall tale almost. [12:47] And even the Peruvian government at the time I first went to Peru, which was [12:51] 2006, their official position was that the tribes are a [12:55] myth. There's no such thing as the tribes. That was the official [12:58] position. And you just... You would hear these stories of people that got [13:02] shot. You'd meet someone high up a river, four days upriver, deep in the [13:06] Amazon, that had an arrow. And you'd look at this thing and it had this, [13:10] you know, mega gravity. And so as we've created Jungle Keepers and now we're protecting [13:17] 130,000 acres of this river, we're protecting the plants and the animals and the [13:21] ancient trees, and trying to preserve the ecosystem, and counting the butterflies and conducting [13:25] ecological surveys, and what we've inadvertently found ourselves [13:30] the caretakers of, is the fact that these people, in order to continue [13:34] living, have to remain isolated, want to remain [13:37] isolated. That's their one mandate as a civilization: the tribes [13:41] of the Mashco Piro. And so, in October, as Jungle Keepers now, we're [13:51] working with the indigenous people. What we do is we take loggers and gold miners and make [13:55] them into rangers and give them better jobs, and we try to protect the forest. [13:58] And those people who live up in the remote indigenous [14:02] community, they called us on a satellite phone and they said, "Directors, [14:08] you've been working with us and telling us you wanna help us. The tribes are coming out. [14:12] What do we do?" [14:13] - So, even they don't really know, when the tribes emerge from the deep jungle- [14:18] ... what to do? [14:19] - They were terrified. [14:20] - What was your thinking when you got the phone call? [14:23] - When we got the phone call, it was a mix of... because we're over here trying [14:27] to get land concessions and doing all this important work, and part of me was like, [14:30] "That can't be real, so we're gonna keep our heads down." [14:34] - Bigfoot is emerging- ... from the forest. [14:35] - Like, yeah, sure. And then we hung up and we said, "Okay, maybe [14:39] tomorrow if they're still there or something." And then it was crazy because [14:43] it was probably about noon and we had an important day of meetings. We had a meeting with the [14:47] police, we had a meeting with the landowner, we were trying to do all this stuff for the conservation work. [14:52] And then I got together with the core team of directors, JJ, Mohsin, Stéphane, and [14:55] we said, "Wait, if this is real, we have to get [14:59] there now. Like now, now." And so we dropped what we were [15:03] doing, canceled the meetings, and put other people on them. We [15:08] got a boat and we called Ignacio, our most hardcore ranger. [15:12] - Who has been shot. [15:14] - Who in 2019 was shot in the head by an arrow [15:18] and still bears the scar, and he barely survived. And we [15:22] said, "Look, this is going down." He said, "I already know because the whole river knows." [15:26] We said, "Can you get us there by tomorrow morning?" And he said, "Look, [15:30] it's a two-day journey by boat. So, no." And we said, "Is there any way you [15:34] can you get us there?" And he went, "I'll get you there." And so we got a [15:37] couple of sacks of rice, a couple of cans of tuna, our dry bags, our [15:41] tents. We got on a boat by 6:00 PM and we started riding up the river [15:46] - Through the night? [15:47] - ...through the night. And so a two-day boat journey that we're trying to flex into one [15:51] night. And so I was at the front with the headlamp— [15:54] ...with the torch. And so the first few hours it was clear, and that [15:58] comet... Remember that comet— [15:59] ...that was going? There was that comet in the sky. I remember looking at it and going, "This is [16:03] it." I knew this was it. And the first few hours were clear and the [16:07] stars were out and it was beautiful, and then it clouded over and the lightning [16:11] started, and then it just apocalypse downpoured. And from midnight [16:15] until 8:00 AM it was just the front of the boat with the light, and it was just [16:19] a Star Wars vision of raindrops and [16:23] galaxies and moths flying in my eye. People don't [16:27] realize you can get hypothermia in the tropics, but as you're going at night, even if it's [16:31] 80 degrees outside, in the rain, in the wind at night, in a lightning [16:35] storm, you're freezing. And so by 2:00 AM I'm convulsively shivering, and [16:41] we're using the caiman eyes on the side of the river because it was [16:45] so dark we couldn't see where we were going, so those shine back at you. So I'm [16:49] finding the caiman eyes and then motioning with the light to Ignacio [16:53] where to go, and he knew how to find the channel and we had to jump the [16:56] waterfalls. We did the two-day boat ride in one night. [17:02] And we arrive at this community where... And it's morning now [17:06] and the howler monkeys are calling over the jungle, and the little naked [17:10] children are all by the side and everyone's scared. And we get a [17:14] hug from this guy, Bacho, who we know, and they're like, "Come in, come in, come in." [17:18] And they're like, "The tribe came out yesterday. We saw a few of them on the beach and [17:22] they're gone now." [17:24] And so we collapsed, we fell asleep. Rained the whole day. That night we went [17:28] out and we looked for them and there was this crazy moment where [17:32] we're standing on this beach and their footprints were there. [17:36] And the local indigenous anthropologist was standing there, looking out into the [17:44] Amazon beyond, and there's just all this wreckage. It looked like something very [17:48] Cormac McCarthy: just dark sky, iron clouds, and [17:52] we're standing there. Everyone is waiting, 'cause at any moment an arrow could [17:55] just fly through your neck. And there's people holding shotguns, and the [17:59] anthropologist, this little guy, is standing there in the front and he's going, "No [18:03] mole." He's going, "Brothers." There's only a few words that intersect [18:07] between the languages and he's going, "Brothers, we're here. We don't want to hurt [18:11] you." He's speaking in the Yine language. And he's saying, "Come out." And you can [18:15] tell by their footprints—the trackers explained this—that you could see... [18:18] it was just the balls of their feet. So right as we pulled up to the beach, they ran. [18:22] So they were there listening to us, and he's going, "Nomole, come [18:26] out. It's okay. Lay down your arms. We'll lay down ours. Nomole." [18:30] He just kept saying, "Nomole." And nothing happened. And we went back to the village and went [18:34] to sleep. We wake up the next morning, and it's 5:00 AM. And [18:40] again, we're trying to save the jungle. We're in a race against time to get these land [18:44] concessions. And so my team, like Mohsin and JJ—Stefan couldn't [18:48] come because he was in town signing paperwork and interviewing loggers [18:51] and landowners. And also, he didn't think there was any chance this [18:55] was gonna be real because in his entire 50-something years in the Amazon, he's [18:59] never seen them. And so [19:02] we're getting ready to leave in the morning. We had tents on the boat, and Ignacio comes up to [19:06] me and he goes, "You're my director, right? You're my boss?" And I went, [19:09] "Yeah." He goes, "I need to talk to you like a friend." I was like, [19:13] "Yeah, shoot. Go." And he goes, "You'd be an idiot to leave right now." [19:17] He goes, "They're coming." And so he convinced us to stay. We pull [19:21] our tents off the boat. Stefan and Mohsin go off with their cameras. They start shooting, [19:25] you know, people. These are monkey eaters and fishermen—the [19:29] community that we're in. And everything's quiet. And I opened my [19:32] laptop, and I was working, just writing my book. And then it [19:38] happened. Then you start hearing people screaming, [19:42] "Mashco, Mashco!" And people are screaming and women are [19:45] lifting children and running into the huts, and the dogs and chickens are going [19:49] nuts. And I mean— [19:50] - So fear. Fear. [19:51] - Fear. [19:52] - Because we should say, the obvious thing is, as far as [19:56] anyone remembers, any minimal, small encounters with these tribes— [20:00] ... have been violent. [20:01] - Extremely violent. These tribes have remained alive [20:05] because of their violence. Like the Spartans or the Comanches, they seem to have [20:09] adopted violence as a first response to contact. [20:12] - Maybe you can correct me on this, but I read that in the late 19th [20:16] century, early 20th century, there was documentation of encounters with these tribes [20:24] by the private armies of the rubber barons. [20:27] And those encounters were, from the rubber barons' armies' perspective, violent. [20:33] And so maybe the lesson the uncontacted tribes learned [20:37] is that any interaction with the outside world is gonna have to be [20:41] violent because they have to defend themselves. [20:43] - Yeah. You had colonial missionaries in the 1600s and 1700s. Then you [20:47] had the rubber barons, late 1800s into the 1900s, just periods of [20:50] extraction and domination and cruelty. And these tribes—their [20:54] grandparents must have told them, "When the outside world comes, you shoot [20:57] first. That's the only thing that's gonna keep you alive." [21:00] - Do you think the memory of those violent encounters is defining [21:04] to how they think about the world? [21:06] - Yeah. Because even in my lifetime there, in the 20 years I've spent in the [21:10] Amazon, Ignacio was shot in the head. My friend [21:14] Victor survived a violent encounter where they murdered somebody on a [21:18] beach. They've shot numerous people. They've even shot people who were trying [21:22] to help them, people who were trying to give them clothing and bananas. [21:26] They call it porcupining them, where they find a body on the beach with so many [21:30] arrows that when they fall over, all the arrows are sticking up. [21:33] And they'll do it out of curiosity too. It's like, "Hey, you're wearing a [21:37] suit. That's weird. We've never seen anybody in a black and white suit." [21:41] The way Teddy Roosevelt would shoot a bird for science. [21:44] They just want to look at you. And so they're operating [21:48] on a different... They don't have the moral system that we have or understand. [21:52] They're truly wild. [21:56] - How does Ignacio think about them? Because they almost killed him. [21:59] - Yes. It depends on the mood you get him in, because if you ask [22:03] him... One day I asked him, "If you could see the people who shot you [22:07] in the head, what would you say to them?" And he looked at me with that Ignacio look [22:11] and said, "I wouldn't say anything. I would kill as many of them as I could." [22:15] He also had a time where he was in a really remote guard [22:19] station working for the Ministry of Culture, and they showed up and he knew that [22:23] they were going to kill him. So he climbed into the peak of [22:27] the little structure there. And just like a dog in a car, that [22:31] greenhouse effect in the top at midday with the sun beating down, he was [22:35] huddled over a mattress while they were walking on the deck— [22:38] ...moving pots and pans and looking at our items and artifacts. [22:41] And he knew that if he was found, they'd kill him. But [22:45] if he stayed up there, he was literally frying. He said he was soaking the mattress. [22:49] He could feel himself dying. For two hours he had to stay there. [22:53] And he was constantly making this decision: "If I come out, I die. If I stay, [22:57] I probably die." He's like, "Probably die is better than definitely die." [23:01] So he was terrified. And as they're screaming, "Mashko," everybody's running, [23:05] Ignacio comes and finds me. You can see in his eyes, you can see [23:09] when somebody has that PTSD response, [23:12] he's breathing heavy. He's moving behind trees. [23:16] He's keeping me close to him and going, "Look there. He has a bow." [23:19] "He has a bow." And we're looking up the beach, and there's just this [23:23] clan of naked men walking down the beach with these seven-foot bows, [23:27] and they're hunched over, pointing at us. They're going, "Look at that one." [23:31] "Look, there's a gun there." You can see them communicating to each other. [23:34] The butterflies are swirling off the beach. In these moments you go, [23:38] "Am I entering a moment that is— is this a one-way door?" [23:42] "Is this an irreversible situation?" Because there's an unfolding situation [23:46] where they're coming towards us. Are they going to attack? What do they want? [23:50] Is there going to be a... I mean, I am [23:56] soaked in chills right now talking about it, because I remember standing there, [24:00] going, "There's no way this is real life." It's burned into my memory, them [24:04] walking down the beach with the bows. And of course, you know, [24:07] Stefan is up there firing off pictures and Mohsin is down getting video. [24:11] And the community that we're with, people had... [24:15] You hear shotgun shells loading home. [24:18] They're getting ready. And there's this one guy, this anthropologist named Romel, [24:22] who has been the only person who has communicated with them peacefully. He did it [24:30] in 2013, where he stood on the beach and spoke to them. He knows enough [24:34] of the local dialect that overlaps with theirs that he can [24:38] speak to them. And as they're coming down the beach, the butterflies are flying up, [24:41] and we're all waiting. And again, shotgun, you're talking, you [24:45] know, how many meters? 30, 40 meters? I don't know accurate. For an [24:49] arrow, you loose a seven-foot arrow that weighs nothing, you're talking about [24:53] 300 meters easy. They can shoot you from across the river. So [24:57] Ignacio was pulling me and he was like, "Down. You go down." [25:01] "You stay behind this tree. Watch them from there. Watch out, he has an arrow." [25:05] He was watching everyone because you could see, he's like, "This is how it happens." [25:08] - Did you think this might be the last day you have on this earth? Were you afraid? [25:14] - I was, yeah, of course I was afraid. You're with- [25:18] I'm with my two best friends and people that I work very closely [25:22] with. You're in the middle of nowhere, there's no help coming, and you're with- [25:26] ...26 people and there's 50 of the tribe that you [25:30] can see, and you know they're surrounding us. There are men on the other side [25:34] of the river. And then we had guns looking back towards the [25:38] jungle because we knew we were being surrounded. And so, again, this is [25:42] always the story of someone's uncle, brother, or cousin [25:46] telling a story that happened, and now it's happening. Not in the shadows, [25:50] not in the middle of the night. It's happening in broad daylight. [25:53] They're walking out onto the beach. It's like the first time they saw the [25:57] dinosaurs in Jurassic Park. You're going, "There's no way." [26:02] - And you are walking on the knife's edge. And it's funny you say this, [26:06] about taking pictures. Because there's two ways to think of this situation. This is [26:11] fascinating, or this is extremely dangerous. It's both. It's a knife's edge. [26:16] So you could approach it one of two ways. [26:18] "If I die, I die. I'm going to take some good pictures." [26:22] - But that was also our mission. As the directors of [26:25] Jungle Keepers, we work with this community to ensure their lifestyle can [26:29] continue, and they're saying, "Hey, that's great, but as an [26:33] indigenous community, we're dealing with people that raid our stuff, try and [26:37] steal our women, and kill our hunters. Now they're coming out. We want you to see [26:41] it." Documenting it is part of our job. We have to [26:45] show what happened that day. And so those guys were [26:49] shooting. And very seriously, it's actually... [26:53] Mohsin's wife and I always joked, "If the tribe ever comes out, [26:57] you stand in front of him, you take the arrow. He has kids." [27:01] And that day, we were strategically positioning [27:04] ourselves, being like, "You, down. You cannot [27:08] get killed." In those moments, you start to go, "Okay, where [27:12] will I be safe from arrows? Where can I run to the [27:16] river if they come over?" And you start planning, "Okay, if I jump [27:20] into the river..." I was going, "Okay, I got my bag. I have a can of tuna. I have a flashlight." [27:24] I was like, "If I jump into the river and float down and I live, I'm still [27:28] days upriver." And so you start going through all these things. [27:32] - And of course, the Mashco Piro people are thinking exactly the same thing, [27:36] probably. [27:37] - Well, the interesting thing is that they're initiating the contact, right? [27:40] They are the ones coming out of the jungle and confronting us. [27:44] - And fundamentally, that contact is- they're at least giving peace a chance. They're [27:51] trying the peaceful contact first, correct? Or was there [27:55] a violent element? Like, what did you sense in the [27:59] caution of them emerging to the beach? [28:02] - Fear. As they came out, you could see fear on them because the way [28:07] they were hunched over, the way they had their bows ready, [28:11] they were worried. And so they came and Romel is standing there [28:15] closer than any of us at the edge, on one side of the river. And it was like [28:19] shirts versus skins. It was two tribes looking at each other [28:23] with a thousand years of civilization between them. And Romel's [28:26] going, "Put down your bows. [28:29] Put down your bows and we can talk." And he's saying, "Namole, Namole." [28:32] He kept saying, "Brothers, brothers, please put down your..." [28:35] - So Namole means brother in a language that they might be able to understand? [28:39] - Namole means brother in a language that they do understand, and [28:43] it seems like they refer to themselves as the Namoles. The brothers. [28:48] - So potentially, that's what they call themselves as a tribe, Namoles? [28:53] - Exactly. And actually, the anthropologists that we've been speaking to post-event [28:59] have been explaining to us that- you know, Piro is the [29:03] group that they're from, these various nomadic tribes. [29:07] And Mashco basically means "wild Piros." One thing we know they call themselves is Namoles. [29:12] - So we might converge towards the name of this tribe being Namole [29:16] versus Mashco Piro? [29:17] - The Namoles, yeah. It seems like the most current self-appointed [29:21] identity is the brothers, Namole. [29:24] - Anyway, there's these shredded warriors on the beach. They're gigantic. [29:29] - With seven-foot arrows, and we're all standing there. And so [29:32] the first thing, again, you just think of like the [29:36] peace pipe in the old stories. And the first thing is, [29:40] "Let's make them an offering of peace." So they got a canoe with no [29:44] motor, and we piled it with plantains, just [29:48] full of plantains, 16 feet of endless green bananas. [29:52] And then, I mean, the balls on this guy, the anthropologist- [29:56] he gets into the river, takes the canoe, and it's the [29:59] dry season, so the river's only about three or four feet deep at the [30:03] channel. And so he walks this thing out, this one man [30:07] walking in the face of all these warriors. He takes the boat and he [30:10] pushes it towards them. And they rush out, and they start [30:14] grabbing the bananas, and they're not going, "Okay, we will unload [30:18] these bananas and use them later." They're my bananas. [30:22] And they're fighting, yelling, and they're all grabbing 'em, [30:26] and then they push the boat back [30:28] and he talks to them a little bit. It's not a perfect translation, [30:31] so he's saying, "Where have you come from? What do you want? Who's your leader?" [30:35] And he's trying to establish these things, and they all sort of talk at the same [30:39] time, like a flock of birds. It wasn't like one man speaks. [30:43] And there were no women. The women were nowhere [30:47] to be seen. And actually, at one point as we were [30:51] preparing, I think it was while we were preparing the second canoe of bananas, [30:55] there was a moment of absolute panic. [31:00] It happened when there was a noise behind us and you just hear shotguns [31:04] swing behind us. And, you know, Mohsin goes down. I go [31:08] running away from the river because I want to see if there's an attack coming. [31:11] And I'm standing, me and this guy were sharing a tree as cover, [31:15] and he's got a shotgun and he's looking back into the forest. [31:20] And what was happening was the women of the tribe had come [31:24] silently, and they were just pulling yucca out of the ground and taking the [31:27] banana plants and ruining the farm completely. They were raiding the farm [31:31] behind us while the men were talking up here. So again, [31:35] were they peacefully contacting us or were they like, "Hey, go make a diversion and [31:40] take the food out the back"? [31:42] - So I mean, you really were surrounded. [31:44] - We were completely surrounded. [31:46] - So they could have murdered all of you, probably. [31:51] - Easily. We were outnumbered five to one at the least. [31:54] - Yeah. And maybe they wanted peace, but part of the reason is they [31:58] didn't know how deep this goes. They didn't know if you had backup. [32:04] - They don't know if we have backup. They also had questions. Some of [32:08] their questions were incredible: "How do we tell the difference between, [32:12] how do we know who the good guys and the bad guys are?" [32:16] Because to them, all you outsiders are the same. [32:20] So why, who were the ones cutting down the trees? [32:22] - And those are the ones they know are the bad guys. [32:25] - Well, the big trees seemed to have incredible significance to them. [32:29] They're significant to us in a different way, but to them, it's [32:33] offensive on an almost religious [32:37] level to cut a big tree, as if you're killing their gods. [32:40] - So there's a spirituality to the trees to them. [32:43] - It seems like that. [32:43] - And so whoever's cutting them down is a source of destruction on a [32:46] spiritual, existential level. [32:50] - spiritual, existential level. They ask, "Why would you destroy our home?" [32:54] - In a deep sense, the uncontacted tribes [32:58] represent the deep jungle. And so if they're [33:01] threatened, that means the jungle, the deep jungle is threatened. [33:06] - They are the human voice of the jungle and [33:10] they're asking questions and they're also demanding. You know, they're clapping at [33:14] us and they're waving and they're saying, "Send more bananas." And so they loaded up [33:18] another boat and they pushed another boat out, and this time they gave them some rope. [33:21] They all had rope tied around their waists, penises tied up. [33:25] But they love rope and some of them were wearing rope that they had [33:29] made, which is brown or reddish. And then some of them were wearing rope [33:33] that they had clearly pillaged from logging camps or the communities because it was [33:37] modern nylon paracord. And they had this wound around their waists like [33:41] a thick belt. And they took the second boat and they had [33:45] some rope and they had some plantains on there. [33:47] - So, some of these guys might have been the ones that murdered the loggers. [33:51] - Could be. [33:51] - From a couple of months before that. [33:54] - Absolutely, could be. But what Ramal said as he was talking to them, [33:57] he turned to us and he said, "The other groups call me the [34:01] Grandfather." He said, "This group, I don't know any of these." He said, "This is first [34:04] contact." He said, "This is the first time this group is talking to [34:08] us." And you saw people from maybe 12 years old to [34:13] what looks like 40-something, like a banged-up 40. [34:18] And no really old people and no women. [34:22] - So this is a particular clan of the uncontacted- [34:24] - It's a particular clan, [34:25] - a tribe who they've never contacted. [34:28] Is there, just from your memory, interesting aspects about the way they were [34:32] trying to communicate? Like you said, clapping. I think it's, [34:36] from an anthropology perspective, from a human perspective, fascinating. How do you talk to [34:40] people from an uncontacted tribe like this? [34:43] So clapping, yelling. It's interesting to know that there's not a hierarchy [34:47] where there's a leader that represents. Or is that something we know for sure? [34:51] - Before even coming to talk to you about this, we passed this through [34:54] anthropologists and ethicists and we said, "Look, is it [34:57] even okay? Can we talk about this?" Because if you talk about this, [35:02] and you tell people there's these uncontacted tribes, people have misconceptions. [35:05] They go, "They're the last free people on Earth. We need to go [35:09] join them. We want to see them." There's all this bad stuff that happens, [35:13] and all these people want to be left alone. So the last thing we want to do is [35:18] kill the thing we're trying to protect and tell the world. But at the same [35:21] time, they're speaking out. They're saying, "Stop cutting our trees. Leave [35:25] us alone." And so if we're not successful in the greater [35:29] Jungle Keepers' mission of protecting this river, they cease to [35:32] exist. And so advocating for these people requires [35:36] us to have this conversation. It requires us to have this footage and to show the [35:39] world, and then leave them alone. [35:43] In order for any of this to make sense, I have to show you this footage. [35:46] - And this has not been shown ever before. [35:50] - This is a world first. I mean, up until now... You know, we're sitting there this day and- [35:53] the only thing you've ever seen are these blurry images of them from someone's [35:57] cellphone from 100 meters away of the uncontacted tribes. And we're sitting there with [36:01] 800 millimeters with a 2X teleconverter and, you know, R5s. [36:05] And so, this is as we're looking through the vines, [36:11] anticipating the tribe coming. I'll put a little bit of volume so you can hear it. [36:16] And then you can see, this is the moment. This is us running when they're like, "They're [36:20] out. They're coming down the beach." [36:25] - Oh, wow. Oh, wow. [36:31] - You see how many thousands of [36:33] butterflies? But look at the way they move. Look at the [36:37] way they point. Look at him with his bow. [36:39] - Wow. [36:45] - There it is. [36:48] - They're trying to figure out what they're looking at. [36:54] - And they didn't know the cameras were there. So this was the guys looking out the back. [36:57] So he's going, "There's something back here." He could- [37:00] hear the women in the farm. And I'm looking in every direction because I'm [37:04] going, "Which way is the arrow coming from?" [37:06] But see, he has his shotgun. This is just like a farm shotgun. Even if he shot it, you have to use a [37:10] stick to bang out the shell. But see, as they come closer, they start [37:14] laying down their... See, he's laying down his bow and arrow. They understand. [37:22] - So these are warriors, and the way they were at first moving, it really [37:26] looked like they're ready for violence. And now they're all standing in a relaxed- [37:31] And they're smiling? Are they smiling? [37:33] - Smiles come at some point. I would say that one of these guys seemed like [37:40] he was in a leadership position. He did most of the talking. [37:43] - What's with the different hand gestures? This, [37:47] the holding your hand up to the face. All of this means something. [37:51] - All of this means something. Some had red smeared on their faces. Some had yellow. [37:55] - Did you have a sense of hierarchy at all, like the boss? [37:58] - Again, there were just these two dominant guys. And, like, this guy and one other guy who [38:02] looked almost like him, like his brother. A lot of gesturing. [38:10] - Wow. This is incredible, Paul. [38:22] - Yeah. You see the rope? Some of that rope is... [38:31] - Yeah, I can kind of tell who the bosses are. [38:33] - Right? All right, so a few of But see, even that, as he's pointing- [38:44] what are you pointing at? [39:02] - You guys are nuts. You guys are nuts. [39:07] - You see, though, they're rushing in. There's this desperation. They're [39:09] hungry. They also— [39:12] - Is that in the water, or is that Ramo in the water in that case? [39:15] - The, in this particular video, it's a guy named Liner. [39:19] But see these guys? They're fighting over it. It's not that we're all going to share it later. [39:23] It's, "I get mine, you get yours." And so what does that mean? [39:27] - Yeah. But here, they're in peaceful mode, for sure. [39:31] - Now, after we'd given them, [39:33] after we'd given them several boatloads of bananas, things did calm down. [39:37] Ramo said to them, "Look, we've given you what we can give you. We gave [39:41] you sugarcane. We gave you boatloads of plantains." [39:47] And so then there came a time where things were a little more relaxed. They were walking [39:50] around. We had a great moment [39:54] where we'd given them the plantains. We'd given them the [39:58] bananas. And he'd said, "Look, that's it." He said, "We've given [40:02] you what you asked for. You asked for bananas. We don't— [40:06] we don't cut the trees here. All of us here are not tree-cutters. We're indigenous [40:10] people." And he couldn't explain who the hell we were, but they were [40:14] like, "We don't cut the trees. We're not the loggers." And they're like, "Okay." So then [40:18] at some point, Ignacio went out and sort of like [40:21] started, you know, he'd go like this and they'd go like this. And he'd dance [40:25] a little bit, they'd dance a little bit. And then there was this human moment of [40:29] just joking. [40:30] - So even Ignacio warmed up. [40:31] - Even Ignacio warmed up. Once he realized no one was going to die that day, [40:36] things did calm down. It was a false sense of [40:39] security. Here, I'll show you. There's a couple more things that [40:43] are relevant here, though. Yeah, this is just them interacting with the boat. [40:48] - This is truly incredible, man. [40:51] - But then they don't have boats. They don't have stone tools. They don't... [40:54] Imagine if you showed them ice. You know, they wouldn't... [40:59] - This is historic. [41:03] - I mean, it's the... you hear of Percy Fawcett [41:07] encountering the tribes. We've heard of anecdotal accounts. This is the first [41:11] time that the tribes have been filmed, that we can hear their voices— [41:15] ...that there's a documented interaction happening. I mean, look how [41:19] comfortable he's getting. He's so close. They asked him for his [41:22] shirt. He gave his shirt. [41:24] - This is incredible. [41:25] - They asked him for his pants. He gave his pants. He was in his underwear. [41:29] You see this? The shirt that's over his [41:32] shoulder? Ignacio took off his JungleKeeper shirt and threw it [41:36] to the anthropologist, and then the anthropologist walked off and threw it to them. [41:40] So over the shoulder of that uncontacted naked warrior [41:44] is a JungleKeeper shirt with the logo showing. [41:47] - That's great. [41:47] - So their, like, their second shirt and they're... [41:49] - You just upgraded that guy's status in the tribe. He's going to be the new [41:53] boss with that shirt. [41:54] - He's got a dope polo. And he didn't even have to order it. But yeah, this is [42:00] in the aftermath when things were calm. And then my [42:04] moment with this that really stuck with me was when [42:08] Ramo said to me, "You know, they're asking about [42:11] you." And I said, "What are they asking?" [42:15] He goes, "Yeah, they're asking about you." And again, I'm not tall but [42:18] compared to the people in the village, I was a little bit taller and had big [42:22] shoulders. And he said, "They said you look like a warrior. Could you come [42:26] forward? Show them that you don't mean any harm. Show them your [42:30] palms." And so he pulled me up onto the beach, right before they left. [42:35] I hold up my hands. Listen. And they sang back. They're singing. [42:48] They raised their hands. I raised my hands. [42:50] - Wow. [43:08] - And then we were left watching them walk off the beach [43:14] into the jungle with everything that we'd given them, [43:18] and they were gone. And so we went downriver the next [43:22] day and the community said to us, "Okay, now you understand this is real. This is [43:25] terrifying. You felt that fear. You have a duty, if you're gonna protect this river, [43:29] to protect us from them and to help us [43:33] figure out what future they want. If they want to come to us, if they want to learn [43:37] farming, if they... whatever it is, [43:41] that's fine." But they were like, "We need protection from you [43:44] guys." And then in this video in the [43:47] beginning, I'm narrating to the camera and walking around [43:52] right as they're coming up the beach. But you see this guy, [43:58] right there in the blue shirt? [44:00] That's George. And he was very friendly, very confident with this. He said, "Don't be [44:04] scared. They're not going to hurt us." And the next day, we went back to [44:08] town—long journey back to town. We go to sleep, we wake up in the [44:12] morning, and we find out that the following early [44:15] morning, our friends in the community had said, "Okay, the tribe is [44:18] gone. We gave them sugarcane, bananas, and said, 'Please [44:22] come back, you're welcome here anytime.'" And George was driving a boat [44:27] with people on board, and as they were going upriver, 200 of the [44:31] tribe ran out, surrounded the boat, and they started firing arrows. Everybody else hit [44:35] the deck and got under the benches and hid behind [44:39] bags of rice. George was driving as fast as he could, leaning back [44:43] while driving. And one arrow came in just above his scapula and came [44:47] out by his belly button. And so he had that seven-foot arrow tip [44:53] through him. They pulled him out, and I saw the boat [44:57] afterward, and there's just horrific amounts of blood all over the [45:00] boat. He had to be medevacked out, and somehow he lived. [45:04] And we were able to help getting him a helicopter, getting him [45:07] evaced, all this. But again, you just go, [45:11] "What..." you know, these people came out of the [45:14] jungle and they asked for bananas. We gave them bananas and [45:17] we, in every way possible said, "We mean peace. We want [45:21] friendship with you." And then the next day, they attacked. [45:28] - What do you think happened? Why do you think their mind turned? Or [45:34] maybe this has to do with the role of violence in their society. Maybe it's so [45:41] integrated into how they interact with the world that they don't even see that as a [45:47] fundamental shift in the interaction. [45:50] - I don't know. I don't know what to make of it. And the only thing I can think is that the [45:54] way they hid the women from us, you don't know for them, maybe we're not allowed to see their [45:58] women, you know? Because the one thing that we got was that as George— [46:02] George's boat and this other boat were going upriver, which is how they [46:06] live—it's not like they were doing anything wrong. These people live in a community days [46:10] into the Amazon, they were going fishing. And so they came around [46:14] a bend and I think they spooked the tribe. The tribe might have just acted [46:18] defensively and said, "We don't know who this is." The motors could have set them off, we don't [46:22] know. But they shot him. And then the other thing is the thing with the necklace. [46:29] I've asked anthropologists about this, and their answer was that at [46:33] this point they said, "You know more than we do." [46:40] Because two of them had the exact same item around their [46:44] necks, and it seems to be a Brazil nut [46:48] and then some sort of casing around the side, and it looked like animal teeth [46:52] positioned in there. And it's like, what are you carrying? Are you carrying medicine? [46:55] Are you carrying some sort of a totem? But both of them... and it's not a [46:59] comfortable thing to wear around your neck— you know, grapefruit-sized or bigger. [47:03] - Do you have a sense if that's a container or is it just like a totem? [47:08] - It seems like a container. If they didn't let it get wet, they cared [47:12] for it. The guy in this picture, he's got this... this is a piece [47:16] of tree fiber that he has it on him, and then he's gotten his [47:20] hands on Brazil nut sacks, plastic sacks from one of the farms [47:23] across the river. And so they just take, they take. And one of them got a [47:27] machete and he was walking. As they were leaving, again, during that period where they got [47:31] friendly, he was leaving and he had the machete, playing with it and swinging it at [47:35] butterflies. And one of my friends, this guy Bacho, he goes, "Oye, deja mi [47:38] machete." He's like, "Drop the machete." And the guy just looked at him and was like, "Yeah, come and get it." [47:43] You know, it's like, "Yeah, you cross the river and see what happens." [47:46] - Do you think he figured out, or they later figured out, how to use a machete? [47:51] - Oh, they know the machete. [47:52] - They understand the machete? [47:53] - Yeah, they do raids for machetes. [47:56] - They understand the power of sharpened metal. [47:59] - It's an Excalibur sword to them. But yeah, that one has stuck with me [48:05] because I wonder, what were they carrying in there? [48:08] - So what are some of the questions? Like if you could [48:11] know everything you'd want to know about them— [48:14] Maybe in the space of communication and language, that's really interesting. [48:17] You mentioned that there's all kinds of calls, animal calls. [48:21] So they obviously know how to fake animal calls. [48:25] - Yeah, they can use animal calls with [48:28] enough complexity that they can do basic commands. They can speak [48:32] in Capuchin; they use Tinamou calls. Some of our [48:36] rangers were upriver a few months ago. This is recently, [48:40] they were upriver and they found a Nomole trail, a Mashco-Piro trail, [48:47] and it was Ignacio, of course. He made a secret whistle [48:51] out into the jungle and he's listening, [48:57] and they whistle back. So he and everybody on the team just [49:00] ran back to the boat and got out of there. But at least they answered. [49:04] They didn't just shoot. He whistled, they whistled, and they said, "Out," [49:08] and he got out. But we don't know, [49:11] where are the old people? Do they not survive? What are [49:15] the marriage rituals? How is reproduction handled? [49:19] There are one or two children in the Amazon that [49:23] I know of who have washed downriver on a log and [49:27] been rescued by communities and raised. They either [49:31] learn the native dialect or Spanish, and then, at some point, somebody will go and [49:34] ask, "What was it like when you lived with them?" The answer is always the same: [49:40] "I forget." They don't talk about it. [49:46] - So maybe we know that they value [49:49] secrecy. I mean, when you're afraid of the outside world, [49:52] part of that is confidentiality. They all sign NDAs. [49:57] - Yeah, there are some really good NDAs. [50:00] - It's an understood NDA. There are no [50:04] lawyers. There's only one way to execute the law. [50:08] - Yeah. It's either a really strong NDA or that it is [50:11] savage living out there in the jungle, where you're eating [50:15] monkeys and turtles and you're hungry for days on end. [50:19] Your wife might get stolen by another tribe. Your baby might get [50:23] stolen—imagine the botflies and the things [50:27] that they must put up with. It's just... I mean, what we [50:31] experienced in three days of living with modern camping gear, headlamps, [50:36] and a sense of direction—they're doing none of that. Put us out there [50:40] naked, a very different story. [50:43] - Yeah, the brutality of nature— [50:44] Werner Herzog comes to mind. They have to live in that. [50:49] But then there's something about the [50:52] jungle that serves as a catalyst for spirituality, so they must also have [50:57] a religious component, a spiritual component [51:01] that probably unifies them. There must be an ideology they operate under. [51:06] - Oh, there must be. There's many things they must have. [51:09] They must have a belief system. They probably have amazing origin [51:13] stories. It would be amazing to know what things [51:16] they have accurately and inaccurately guessed about [51:20] us, about the outside world. I mean, they've never heard of [51:24] the country they live in or of World War II or any of it. And so seeing them come [51:30] across the beach was surreal because it's like this aperture into history. [51:36] - By the way, you do have a certain look, so you realize like— [51:40] as I'm speaking to you, your face is carved in some wood somewhere, [51:44] And there's a few of them gathering around [51:47] and like still singing about the great gringo with the— [51:50] - The full beard and the big nose. They probably drew this like, "He's got [51:54] hair all over his face and a huge nose, and they tell their children. [51:57] - Yeah. And it could be anything. They— [51:59] To the children, they say, "This is the monster you should be afraid [52:03] of," or this could be the most beautiful [52:07] encapsulation of the outside world. It could be everything in [52:10] between. You don't get to control the myths. [52:12] - You don't get to control the myths. Yeah, God only knows, but [52:16] - That's so interesting. [52:17] - So now, in that 130,000 acres that we have, we know—and this [52:21] is what we sort of have to come out with— [52:25] we are now protecting these people. And the [52:29] only way to do that is to make sure that they're not contacted, let [52:33] alone that they don't get machine guns shot at them by the [52:37] narcos, or that crazy hippie gringos don't go down [52:41] there thinking they're going to join the coolest commune on Earth. [52:46] - So how much of the land that they move [52:50] about is within the 130,000 acres of rainforest you've been [52:53] able to save? And how much of it is not? [52:57] How much of it is in the extra 200,000 acres that you're trying to save? [53:01] - Most of the rest, most of that 200,000 that we're still trying to protect [53:05] is territory that is theirs. And in order- [53:09] People always ask me this. They're like, "How could you buy the [53:13] Amazon?" They're like, "That doesn't make sense." And it's like, well, I have bad [53:17] news for you. Somebody already owns it and we have to buy it from them so that they [53:20] don't log it. And so these landowners are going [53:24] to sell their forest to the logging companies because owning [53:28] 10,000 acres of the Amazon doesn't help you if you're a third-generation [53:32] jungle man. And now it's just something that's up there and you live in the city, [53:36] and so they're going to contract either the narcos, the loggers, or the miners to go [53:40] out there and use it, and they'll get a little money. And when those people see [53:44] these people, they will kill them. That's for sure. And [53:47] shotguns and machine guns in the end will win, not to mention the germs. [53:53] - So all the money you're trying to raise and all the land that you're trying to [53:56] save, it's all towards that: protecting the deep jungle. [54:00] So when you buy up the jungle, you just want to let it [54:04] be, let the natural ecosystem come back to life in the cases [54:08] when it was logged or just flourish- ...if it hasn't? [54:12] - Again, we're talking about the last great jungle. [54:15] I always called it the last endless forest because this place is [54:19] so incredibly remote. And then the other [54:23] question I always get is, "Well, why is this river so, so important?" And [54:27] for my whole career, 20 years in the Amazon, it's been [54:31] that it's massively intact forest. Places like the ancient [54:35] forest where the trees have never been cut, growing since the dawn of [54:39] time. Thousands of species can be on a single shihuahuaco tree, and [54:43] it's Avatar on Earth. You can see the sweat come off [54:46] your skin and rain down and then drink it out of the river, and you're part of the [54:51] chemical physical reality there. It's one of the last places that's untouched. [54:58] This changed everything because we realized that along with [55:02] the butterflies and the monkeys and the jaguars and the trees and the [55:05] ecosystem—there's also a human culture that [55:09] will, in the next few years, cease to exist, that [55:13] will be exterminated if we don't protect them. And when you look [55:17] back at what happened to indigenous cultures all over the world over the past few centuries, [55:21] that they've been wiped out, we collectively now, [55:25] because we know this, have a chance to undo all [55:29] the injustices of the past by at least doing one [55:33] right, by saying these people want one thing: to just be left [55:37] alone. Imagine if we just protected the river. [55:41] And then it's not that they're this thing that's vanishing from [55:44] reality, but they get to continue living that way. And if they want to come out and [55:48] contact us, great, and if they want to continue living like this for 10,000 years, they [55:52] can. And that's what we're working with now. It's [55:56] become so much more important than just, you know, trying to [56:00] protect the environment. It's like, no, we're trying to protect [56:03] things like Yellowstone and Yosemite and the sequoias that [56:07] occur nowhere else on Earth. You protect the things that are unique and [56:11] special, the crown jewels, and in both a biological way and an anthropocentric way, [56:18] this has now become a river with global historic significance because this story [56:26] is going to play out in the next 18 months. [56:30] - You're trying to save more and more rainforest. [56:34] And the mission is clear because there's just this deep jungle... [56:40] ...that's full of this incredible life. And now we know with uncontacted tribes, [56:44] there's a lot of interests that don't care about the jungle they're pushing into... [56:49] ...and want to cut it down, want to destroy it. And the mission is pretty clear. [56:53] You just want this whole territory to be preserved. [56:56] - Yeah. And that's what makes it so beautiful is that this is one of those crown jewels. [57:00] This is one of those special places on earth where it's like a time capsule for nature, [57:04] for human culture, for biodiversity, for climate services, for everything. [57:11] I think people get overwhelmed when you say, "We have to save the environment. [57:15] We have to save the ocean." This is one watershed. [57:20] It's 300,000 acres, and we're already at 130,000. [57:24] We've shown we can do it. The loggers are happy to turn into rangers. [57:28] People all over the world have become Junglekeeper supporters. [57:32] We have several thousand people that every month give us [57:36] between five and a thousand dollars, and that keeps the rangers going, [57:39] that employs the local people. So it's not just drawing a line and making a park [57:43] and saying, "Everybody stay out." It's like, no, you have the Nomoles, [57:47] you have the indigenous people, you have a future for the indigenous people [57:51] where their kids don't have to worry about eating monkeys. They can be park rangers. [57:58] I get blowback when I say, "People can even come see it through the treehouse." [58:02] People go, "Oh, are you going to bring tourists into the wildest place on earth?" [58:06] And it's like, look at that jungle. In those 300,000 acres, [58:09] if you're talking about a football field, we're talking about two blades of grass [58:13] that we access so people can see it, which makes a huge difference. [58:17] The fact that we can share it with people... I mean, the amount of people that listen, [58:23] look, since the first time I came here and spoke to you, [58:29] the amount to which you've made it possible for us to protect this place, [58:33] the amount of spider monkeys, jaguars, and giant anteaters, [58:37] and those ancient millennium trees that you've made it possible to protect is monstrous. [58:43] - Thank you, brother. [58:45] - No, thank you. [58:45] - It's been an honor of a lifetime to be able to watch you. I tell this to people, [58:49] there's certain people I'm glad exist in this world, [58:55] because you've educated me and millions of people about the beauty of the jungle, [59:01] and how important the fight to save the jungle is. [59:05] So if you're listening to this, you absolutely must go. Please donate, [59:09] post about it, and share it with friends: Junglekeepers.org. [59:13] You're also doing a gala in New York at the end of January. [59:19] So if you can, please go and donate to help save the jungle. [59:25] - Yes, please do. And because our first [59:28] conversation led to the first surge where people realized what Junglekeepers was— [59:34] and because we got this surge of support, we were able to expand our work, protect more [59:38] acres, a lot of our major donors, a lot of our small scale donors [59:42] came in because of that. So these are people that went, "Wait, if Lex thinks it's a [59:46] good idea, then we'll do it." I think based on your trust they came in. And so... [59:50] - I guess also I should say it's not enough to [59:54] speak and communicate the importance of saving the rainforest. You [59:58] actually have to have incredible people there making it happen. And we have [60:01] talked and we'll talk more about the dangers and the complexities involved on how [60:05] to navigate everything. And one of the things, and [60:10] the reason I'm really excited about what you're doing is I just got to meet the [60:14] team, and it brings a smile to my face— [60:18] several of the people I know who are extremely competent. Stefan, [60:21] somebody we've talked about— Yes, he likes to take pictures of stuff but primarily, [60:29] the thing he does incredibly well is run everything, organize everything [60:35] to make sure that stuff happens and happens quickly and efficiently, [60:39] all the kind of things that are required to make stuff like this happen in [60:47] the complex environment that the jungle operates in, the [60:50] sometimes lawless environment— [60:52] that the jungle operates in. So the team is incredible, which [60:56] is why when you sort of connect the money, how does the money lead to the solution [61:03] of the problem? It's the team and the team makes it happen. [61:07] - I didn't know that people like Stefan existed. [61:10] - Yeah, me neither. [61:11] - You know, because I— [61:12] - When I met him— He was a beautiful, wonderful human being. [61:16] - I just... I'm, you know, again, I can use a machete to catch a fish. [61:21] But his systems knowledge and his ability... I mean, his [61:25] bandwidth is the size of a country. It has its own area code. [61:28] It's... He's... You know, just like JJ opened the door [61:32] of the Amazon and gave us that local indigenous perspective. I mean, [61:36] yeah, okay, I told some stories about it, but Stefan came in and went, [61:40] "Okay, you guys have good ideas, but you're both jungle guys." [61:44] "You're not helping each other." And running those systems and making the website [61:48] and making it possible to connect the people that care with the indigenous ranger [61:51] program and make sure the rangers have shirts and cans of tuna and that there's a person [61:55] running the ranger team— I mean, these are things I couldn't dream of organizing. [61:59] I can't even organize my... I can't even make my bed. I can't even get that far. [62:06] - Caveman want fish. [62:07] - Caveman want fish. [62:09] - Watching you hunt for fish with a machete [62:13] is one of the most awesome things I've seen. You were literally able to [62:17] catch a fish with a machete. [62:19] That's what you're good at. And Stefan is good at everything else. [62:22] - Everything else. You remember the meme of the most interesting man in the world? [62:25] Where they say, "He once had an awkward moment just to see how it felt." [62:28] It's like Stefan's to-do list doesn't exist because it's already [62:31] done. It's just incredible. [62:35] - Quick pause. Bathroom break. [62:36] - Oh, 100%. Yes, sir. [62:41] - And we're back. One thing I forgot to ask you is about the diet [62:44] of the uncontacted tribes. You mentioned potentially monkeys and turtles, [62:52] maybe eggs? So, what do we know about what they eat? What's the source of [62:56] protein? Do they eat monkeys? [62:59] - Their primary sources of food would be [63:02] monkeys, turtles, turtle eggs, and small game [63:06] like paca, the large rodent that's the size of a beagle. [63:10] Capybaras. Stuff they can shoot. They don't really fish. [63:14] And we know these things because [63:17] our indigenous trackers and rangers find their camps. [63:21] They'll find some of those little thatch structures they make on the beaches, [63:26] and we see the bones. There'll be tapir bones, there'll be turtle [63:29] shells, which seem like their closest thing to a [63:32] bowl. The day that we interacted with them, [63:36] they did find a bowl. We saw them walking away with it in one of [63:40] the farms, and then days later we found it destroyed. So they [63:44] didn't seem like they saw much utility in the bowl. [63:47] - A temporary container. [63:49] - It's temporary. They make a fire. They must be amazing at making fire. [63:53] I don't know how they do it out there. [63:56] - It's very difficult because everything is wet. [63:59] - I don't know how they do it. And I'm a really good firestarter. [64:02] - And it's tough in the jungle. [64:03] - It's almost impossible most of the year because everything is wet to its core. [64:09] - So you think they cook the meat? [64:11] - They have to be cooking their meat from a parasite standpoint, [64:15] ...everything. We know that— [64:16] ...they're cooking their meat. We see it. You know, there's not a lot [64:20] of excess berries. Things like berries and nuts and [64:24] fruits, that the monkeys and the birds are— [64:26] ...and the bats are getting to those first. I mean, that's what fruit does, right? [64:29] A tomato is green until its seeds are mature, [64:33] then it turns red to advertise, "Eat me," so that you eat it and [64:37] your gut transports that somewhere else. It gets free transportation. [64:41] In the jungle, that happens so quick that we're never getting produce. [64:45] - In the book, you have a picture of a native girl on the Los Piedras... [64:49] ...having monkey for lunch. [64:52] - Yes. [64:53] - It looks really strange when you have— The monkey kind of looks— [65:02] It looks a little bit like cannibalism because it looks like a small human. [65:08] I don't know what it is about monkeys. There's a human— [65:13] ...element to them. In their eyes, in [65:17] their form factor, but even in the warmth they bring to the interaction. [65:22] - Yeah, I was babysitting her. She was six at the time, Dira, and [65:28] her parents went out and we were left at camp. They said, "Keep an eye on her. [65:32] Make sure nothing eats her." She was like, "Hey, I want lunch." [65:36] I said, "Great, what is there?" And she pulls out this monkey head. [65:39] She was like, "It's ready," and she starts pulling at the ear. [65:43] She's like, "Can you help me?" So I pulled off the ear with my teeth— [65:47] ...and then I gave it to her. We just shared this monkey head back and forth. [65:51] We're sitting there and I took a few pictures of her as she's eating. [65:54] I have this video where I go, "What's your favorite food?" She said, "Monkey." [65:58] I said, "Not cake?" And she was like, "Monkey." [66:03] She was pulling its lips off and, like you said— [66:04] ...you see the teeth and the eyes. It's sort of grilled in static agony. [66:09] It looks like a tortured human, and she was just enjoying it. [66:12] - Let me look it up on Perplexity. How many people in the world eat— [66:19] monkey? Does it taste good? [66:24] - If it were prepared right, it would taste good, but they just throw it over the fire. [66:31] And even if you took a perfectly good chicken and did that, it wouldn't taste great. [66:33] - There's no reliable global count of how many people eat monkey meat, [66:37] but available data suggests many millions regularly or occasionally consume [66:41] primate bushmeat— [66:45] ...especially in parts of Africa, Latin America and Asia. I mean, she looks [66:49] like that is her favorite meal— is monkey. [66:53] - Yeah, we had a great time. [66:55] - Who are we to judge? [66:56] - Who are we to judge? I mean, have a tuna sandwich or a monkey face, whatever. [67:02] - She's loving it. That's awesome. That's a good picture there. [67:05] - And she's adorable. [67:06] - Yeah. Now that some time has passed, when you look back at [67:10] that encounter, which I really do think is historic, [67:14] with the uncontacted tribe, what do you think about? What lingers with you? [67:19] - Honestly, I'm still processing it. I'll still find myself just staring off, sort of [67:23] remembering it or looking at the footage. But it felt like [67:31] the voice of the jungle was speaking. You know, these [67:35] people are... there's that separation [67:39] between humans and nature where we go, "We have to protect nature." You know? [67:43] It's like explaining what water is to a fish. We're part of it. We depend [67:47] on it. And these are people that depend on it 100%. And as we sit [67:51] here surrounded by technology, concrete and civilization, they're [67:57] still out there right now. And the [68:01] fact that we've been trying to protect their home without even [68:05] really knowing that they were in it because they're so elusive, [68:09] it gives you perspective on where we came from and how far we've come. [68:14] You know, I look at simple things. You board an [68:18] airplane or you take a picture and you go, "This is a miracle." [68:22] And I think having that perspective of having interacted with them where you [68:25] go, "How much work does it take to make this?" [68:32] If you and I were standing in the jungle and somebody said, "You have to make this," [68:35] how many years before we came up with this? How [68:39] many rubber trees, and where would we get the metal, and what would we use as dye? [68:43] How do we make the spring mechanism and figure out how to make it rotate? [68:47] I don't know. And it's like they are working with the bare essentials. [68:51] And so it's an interesting reference point to start at in terms of how incredibly [68:55] at in terms of how incredibly [68:59] privileged we are. You know, the other thing is we have [69:03] written text—so many different types of text. We have code, and we have [69:06] language, and we have music, and we can communicate in all these different ways. [69:10] And they have spoken word. They have oral tradition, and that's it. And so they're [69:18] operating the way our ancestors did through the [69:22] power of what operated and is persisting in modern [69:27] And so I think, for me, I come back to the world and [69:31] it moves very fast when I see it because I'm still stuck on, [69:38] you know, whether or not me and you can drink out of that puddle. [69:41] Thinking about that. [69:42] - The big questions of life. [69:43] - The big questions of life. [69:45] - Yeah. I mean, you're right from the perspective of the uncontacted tribe. [69:51] Going from the technological world to the jungle, you realize [69:56] the majesty, the magic of the biological system that [70:00] is the jungle, that is nature. But from their [70:03] perspective, also there is a majesty and magic to the [70:06] technological world. The human-created [70:11] technological world of the pen and the computer, [70:15] and the light bulb, that too is magical. So sometimes we [70:20] - Absolutely [70:20] - don't give enough credit to both: [70:25] the magic of the technological world, all the incredible things humans have been [70:29] able to build, and the magic of the natural world. [70:34] - I mean, what we've been able to achieve, I think you and I and people that spend [70:41] large amounts of time in the wilderness, especially somewhere as remote and fundamental [70:45] as the Western Amazon, have a different perspective [70:49] on it. Because I think that when you're born in it, you don't [70:51] necessarily have the framework to appreciate how far we've come. [70:57] You go, "Yeah, I got on the train today. I checked my phone. I FaceTimed [71:01] my mom," and you're like, "This is all normal." And it's like we found [71:05] a way to take [71:07] things out of the ground and mix them together into magic devices that can do [71:10] anything. And it's mind-blowing. [71:14] - There's a deep optimism to that. You write in the book, which I really like, I think somewhere [71:18] in the beginning, quote, "Given all the death and destruction I've [71:21] witnessed, it would be easy to slip into the popular anti-human [71:25] narrative that we are a plague on the planet [71:29] and there's nothing that can be done, but my career in conservation has given me a [71:33] glimpse into an alternate narrative. I've met people who are [71:37] proving more and more that something can be done. [71:41] I'm talking about real heroes, people who have dedicated their lives to redeeming [71:45] the evil that is capable of being waged by the human [71:48] soul, people who are guarding the flame amidst the [71:51] storm, proving every day what so many have forgotten. There is still hope." And that [71:58] speaks against the cynicism and apathy, [72:04] and the view that humans are a destructive force in the [72:07] world. That speaks to the fact that humans, with all the technological [72:14] elements that we have created, can actually do a lot of [72:17] good. I wrote in my notes here a quote from the great Jane Goodall: "The [72:24] greatest danger to our future is apathy." So [72:28] caring about the world, having optimism for the world, having a hope for the [72:32] world is the way to help have an impact, help save it. But on that, I have [72:40] to ask you about Jane. She passed away on October [72:43] 1st. Some humans in this human civilization of [72:47] ours can open our eyes to the beauty of the [72:51] world, and she is one of the best of them. And she's had an impact on your life. [72:59] Maybe can you speak to the impact that she's had? [73:03] - I mean, when I grew up, you know, my parents... [73:07] Being dyslexic, I couldn't read for a very long time. And so my parents [73:11] read to us every night, which was amazing considering [73:15] how hard they were working. But they'd find the time to give us an hour of reading every night, [73:19] whether it was Lord of the Rings or Sherlock Holmes or Jane Goodall. And [73:23] so I grew up with Jane being this figurehead of [73:26] conservation and of adventure and sort of a living [73:30] historical figure, this legendary person. And so then [73:34] one time, right around the time that I'd been going to the jungle for a few [73:38] years, I got to go see Jane speak, I think it was at [73:41] NYU. And, you know, sitting in the crowd, [73:45] watched her, completely amazed. And I had, at the time, my [73:49] cousins had been telling me that I should write down my stories, the stories of taking care of an [73:53] anteater and stories of catching anacondas. And they're like, "Write, you know? [73:56] These are such good stories." And so I'd been writing them down and I just [74:00] remember after the talk, she did at least an hour on stage and then [74:07] hundreds of people lined up, and [74:13] she sat there and each of those people wants a moment [74:17] with this legend. And so she has to take a picture, shake their hand, they say, "You mean so [74:21] much to me." She says, "Thank you." And then they move on and they say, "We'll send you [74:25] the picture." "Okay, great." So then I got my moment and we waited in line and I gave [74:29] her this manila envelope with two chapters in it. And one chapter [74:32] was "Lulu the Giant Anteater" for Mother of God, and the other chapter was me, [74:36] JJ and Pico out on the river catching anacondas, and just talking about how [74:40] amazing the jungle was. And I said, "I'd love it if you could endorse my book that [74:44] doesn't exist yet." And I felt like such a loser doing that. And I felt so [74:48] stupid because I feel like everyone was probably asking something of her, and I, [74:52] you know, it's incredibly draining to talk to that many people, even if [74:56] it is for a good reason. And 48 hours later, she got back [75:00] and she said, "You know, this is incredible. I would love [75:04] to write a recommendation for your book as soon as you find a [75:07] publisher." And what happened with that is that [75:11] Jane—the way I think of it is, you know, she waved her [75:15] very powerful magical wand in my direction, and she had the [75:19] incredible compassion and presence to [75:22] actually—I mean, after talking to that many people and being on the road 300 days a year [75:26] and being Jane Goodall, this living legend scientist, to actually [75:33] do something so mundane as look at some kid's writing. And [75:37] of course, when I went to publishers, they said, "Jane who? Who said that they would [75:41] endorse your book?" Because everyone had said no. Every [75:45] publisher in New York had already said no. And then after that, HarperCollins took [75:49] me on and they said, "Well, if Jane Goodall thinks it's a good idea, then we think it's a good [75:52] idea." And it became Mother of God and then because of that, Jungle Keepers, [75:59] Dax, everything else stemmed from that. So had Jane [76:03] not been the legend that she is truly in every moment, [76:07] my whole career would never have happened, which also means that those thousands [76:11] of heartbeats and thousands of acres in the Amazon wouldn't be protected because we [76:14] never would've started Jungle Keepers. [76:17] - And she did that not because you're special; she did that to everybody. [76:22] And now just imagine the scale, the impact she's had because of that. [76:27] And guess what? You have a bit of that responsibility now as [76:31] well. There's young people that walk up to you in that way, [76:35] and you have that responsibility of seeing them, of giving them a [76:38] chance, of seeing the potential in every single human being that walks up to you. [76:45] - It definitely... I would say that with Jane, we could do four hours [76:49] on just Jane: what she did for humanity, for science, for [76:53] women, for wildlife, the amount of other people that she [76:56] inspired and gave careers to, [76:59] everything she did for me. But to me, that presence of [77:03] mind when you reach that level, to not be worried about your own travel and your own [77:07] schedule and busy with getting some rest—and that she actually [77:11] looked at it—has informed how I operate. And [77:15] indeed like you say, at this point, as strange as it is, people will [77:19] stop me on the street and say, "Hey, I watch your videos every [77:23] night with my kids." Or someone will say, "How do I get your [77:27] job? I've been watching you for years and I'd love to help conservation." [77:31] So it's made it so that I follow her example where [77:35] it's like you stop what you're doing and you [77:39] pay attention. Because you don't know, that might be the next kid that's out there saving [77:43] a river, or the next person that makes an innovation that makes it possible to clean rivers, [77:46] or whatever it is, whatever their dream is. [77:49] Jane was in the hope business. She always said it: you know, [77:53] that not losing hope was key to [77:57] staying in the fight. And that we live at a time when, [78:03] apathy is a poison peddled by the darkness. It's— [78:07] they're trying to make you feel disoriented, apathetic, and [78:10] scared. And fighting back against that and having [78:14] conviction and passion and fire and hope [78:17] are the only way that we're gonna fight that. She understood that and spent her whole life spreading [78:21] it, guarding the flame against the storm, and [78:25] tipping her candle to others to light them. I mean, that was her whole thing. [78:30] - What advice would you give to young people on how to do that? Those young Pauls sitting [78:37] there—and your life story is just incredible in that [78:41] way. You've taken a leap into adventure, [78:45] into the unknown. What would you recommend they do? [78:49] - I think the thing that I try to communicate to them— [78:53] and again, my inbox is filled with people. "I'm from Finland. I'm from Spain. [78:56] I'm from Georgia." People saying, "How do I get your job? How do I get out [79:00] there and do it?" And it really is just that: you [79:04] throw yourself headfirst into adventure. You just do it. [79:08] I remember hearing people say, "You know, if I can do it, [79:12] you can do it." And I remember how hollow that sounds 'cause I'm like, "Yeah, you're on a [79:16] talk show or you just wrote a book..." You know, these titans [79:20] of their industries and innovators saying, "Oh, if I can do it, [79:24] anybody can do it." But now that we're protecting all this rainforest, [79:27] and that I've lived with the animals and met [79:31] the tribes, and it's becoming this global movement. [79:36] You know, I didn't have a PhD. There's that quote that someone [79:39] less qualified than you is living your dream life and has your dream [79:43] job right now, and I am the poster child for that because I went there [79:47] when I failed out of high school and started taking unmatriculated college [79:51] classes and going to the jungle with my friend JJ and just doing it for the sheer [79:55] love of it for years, almost a decade before [79:59] anything surfaced. And the other thing is there's not [80:03] even a path. There was no path ahead of us. There was no, [80:07] "Okay, you go to school. You get trained in this, and you're gonna become a this." I went there and it [80:11] was like, "You're never gonna be a conservation biologist 'cause you don't have the grades. [80:14] You don't have a PhD. You don't have family money. You're not [80:17] gonna be able to protect rainforests." So I said, "All right, well then, [80:21] selfishly, I just wanna see it." And then I ended up getting trained by the [80:25] indigenous people, and like what happens so many [80:28] times—you could use a restaurant example as the best one, [80:32] where you might start washing dishes, but at least you're in the [80:36] restaurant, you know? And then at some point, the manager's gonna need you to help [80:40] with restocking and so on. And after a few years, you're [80:44] gonna be helping the new guy, and after a few years you might end up being [80:48] the manager, and at some point you might end up starting your own restaurant. [80:51] That's the only way to do that. You can't just search it on a computer. [80:55] You have to go sweat and bleed and do it. [80:58] - And that said, especially if you fall in love with the journey, [81:02] the path you take is full of difficult periods. I think you [81:06] said somewhere this just seems to be the nature of it. [81:11] That there's going to be pain and suffering along the way. You have [81:14] a really nice post... [81:16] ...that I recommend people watch about just this. When people ask for [81:23] advice: that the hardship, the suffering— [81:27] —and I've seen how much you care. When I've seen you, [81:31] just in your face, when you see a tree being cut down or you see the fires, [81:39] there's real pain there in your heart and you have to [81:43] carry that. And so the post is, "How honest can [81:47] I be? What do I tell these kids who message me asking how [81:51] they can do what I do? It's not David versus Goliath. There's [81:55] no sword or sling that can hold back a dragon this big. You're going [81:59] against the current of global economic entropy and human apathy. [82:03] Swimming against the current is tiring, a great way to [82:06] drown. Every day we don't win, we lose, and when we do, worlds burn. The more you [82:14] know, the more it bleeds. The heartbeats all stop when the flames [82:18] come through. Constellations of species turn to [82:21] ghosts, and we're the only ones saving them. Cupped [82:25] our hands around a candle in the howling darkness." [82:29] And people want to be inspired. Keep that social media going, [82:33] keep it up. You're doing great. They want to know we're [82:36] winning, and we've done a lot of winning, but not right [82:40] now. We're getting slaughtered. We're at that part of the [82:44] story. We're almost at the end game. We can think [82:47] positively, as positively as we want. Thoughts and [82:51] prayers won't stop a chainsaw, and the motor that's carrying us [82:55] against the current towards the miraculous goal only works when there's [82:59] gasoline in it. As soon as that stops, we drown. We drown. We can take the [83:06] warm light from all of those who help and not let it bother [83:10] us that there are people who could buy a planet, claiming to care. At some [83:14] point you realize what's really happening." [83:17] "As a kid you'd rather be Aragorn. You don't want to [83:21] actually carry the ring, not when you learn what it's going to [83:25] cost, even if you make it. How can you explain [83:29] to Sam why you can't get on the boats? Whatever it [83:32] takes, whatever it takes. It's that time of year [83:36] again. Here come the flames. Whatever it takes, it's [83:40] coming." And people should watch the video that goes along with this. But that [83:44] speaks to the pain, the difficulty, the challenge, the suffering involved— [83:49] when you're faced with the possibility of [83:51] destruction. And that's the other side of the sword of caring for something deeply. [83:57] - Yeah, we've watched a lot of forest burn. We've pulled a lot of [84:01] animals out of the flames. Yeah, I wrote that at a [84:05] time where we were just getting hammered. Funding wasn't [84:08] coming in. There were miners. It was just months and months out in the jungle [84:12] alone, and yeah, that— it's [84:16] a Thom Yorke track that I'd just been listening to again and again, and it was so [84:20] low. There was then a huge new invasion where they just— [84:28] burned the whole side of the river. And you know, it's never going to come back. [84:34] And it's part of the forest that I loved, and I knew the animals there and it's, [84:38] it's gone. And so we have to live through that on a [84:43] weekly basis, at least a day-to-day basis. And [84:47] when you take on responsibility for something like this, you— [84:51] you go to sleep thinking, [84:54] "If we don't do it then worlds burn. If we don't save it, then..." Every time you [84:58] said the sadness that surrounds a happy moment— well, it's [85:02] like, how am I supposed to go to a party and talk with people about [85:06] anything, or how am I supposed to go to sleep when if we don't [85:12] succeed at what we're trying to do, if we don't outrace the chainsaws and [85:16] the roads, then those trees die, those millennium trees, and [85:20] we're the only ones out there protecting them. When you see that black scorched [85:23] earth with nothing left, it's just ashes on the ground and the cacophony of life is [85:31] silenced, and it's just this horrible, violent silence. It makes you sick. And so, [85:38] yeah, there's a lot of weight that comes with that where [85:43] we're not theoretically doing [85:47] something. We're black and white, practically doing it. [85:51] - So that's the other side of the advice to young people. [85:55] - Oh, yeah. [85:56] - It's not gonna be easy. [85:58] - No. When they say, "How do I get your job?" it's like, "Well, you [86:02] don't want my job. You don't want the botflies, and you don't want the dengue, and you [86:05] don't want—don't even inquire what a normal life [86:09] looks like." I lived out of a backpack for 20 [86:12] years. You know how many monkey faces I had to eat because [86:16] there was no other food? Like, seriously. [86:20] Just that shot, being alone on the boat in the river and how [86:24] many days the motor didn't work. And you sleep out there, and you get rained on because [86:28] you don't have any protection, and you have some leaves over your face. And then you go [86:32] home, and everyone's got a job, and everyone's got kids, and everyone's happy. And they're like, [86:36] "What are you doing down there?" "I'm trying to save the rainforest." [86:40] They're like, "Sure." And now we're at this point where, [86:45] I've cared a whole lot for a long time. We've had rises, and then [86:49] we've had falls, and we've had wins, and then we've had failures. And the last few years, [86:53] we've had this rolling success of people finding out [86:57] about our work and coming in. And we start to go, "Wow, if we protected 130,000 acres, [87:01] we might actually be able to do this." And so, there's that moment in [87:05] 300 where they show Leonidas, and they say, "Even the king allows himself [87:08] a moment of hope that this might be okay," right before they get slaughtered. [87:13] And someone very dear to me recently said, "In celebration [87:19] of where we've gotten to, that if it happened in any harder of a way, it would have [87:23] actually killed you. And if it had happened in an easier way, it [87:26] wouldn't have been so divine." [87:30] And that slapped me in the face because it was like, "Man, it has been so [87:34] hard, but look where we are. We might actually do this." [87:41] - It just has to be that way. Speaking of which, another complexity in all of this, [87:49] you write about in the afterword of the book, [87:53] about the narco-traffickers that have moved into the river basin. They are not [88:01] the loggers that we've spoken about anymore. They're [88:05] growing coca for cocaine, and they're building airstrips. So [88:12] tell me how this came to be. [88:14] - Like you said, the loggers... our whole life on this river, when [88:18] loggers come in, JJ and I would walk up to them and say, "Hey, what's up?" [88:22] Sit down with them and have a beer or share a meal and talk to [88:25] them and ask who their father was and if we know them and then hire them. And they're [88:29] friendly. [88:32] - They are, in a way, brothers, JJ. They're the same. [88:38] - They come from the same people. They're simple local people. They're not evil. [88:42] They're just people who usually have a kid and a wife, and they're looking for [88:46] work. And so they work with the chainsaw because that's what they [88:48] know. And they work for, you know, $30 a day, if that, in very challenging, [88:56] harsh environments. And so when we see clearings, I would always go with the drone [88:59] and fly it over clearings. We'd get some intel, and then we'd go bring that to the [89:03] police. And the police, you know... Jungle Keepers supports the [89:07] police at this point because the Peruvian [89:10] government has a hard time with resources, trying to [89:15] manage Amazonia. And when you're three days from [89:18] civilization, getting cops out there is not the easiest thing. So sometimes we'll lend [89:21] boats or gasoline or logistical support. There was a moment in March, several hours [89:29] upriver from, you know, home base. And I'm with JJ on [89:33] the boat, and I fly the drone, and there's this big new clearing, and I flew the drone over, and [89:37] we lower the drone. And a few times, I've had people come out and wave at the drone or say [89:41] like, "Get away." And [89:44] we're out in the middle of the river just sort of idling, staying in one place, and I lower the [89:48] drone. And I see the, these little huts, and we're saying, "Okay, this is a big clearing." [89:52] I'm snapping images, snapping images. There are people on the boat with us, these [89:56] visitors who had flown in, and I have my local [89:58] team, and all of a sudden, people come running out of the [90:02] houses. And they run straight to their boats, and we're already above where [90:06] their boat is. So home is in downriver direction. They get in [90:10] their boats and start chasing us, [90:13] and we start driving, and we're going at full speed. We have a 60 [90:16] horsepower. They had a 40, and we're driving up these... We're just [90:20] doing this chase now, and our guests, who are gonna [90:24] be potential funders. At one point, the father looked at me, and he goes, "Hey, this [90:28] whole running from the Pirates of the Caribbean thing," he's like, "It's getting scary. [90:32] You're scaring us." He was like, "Can we..." [90:36] I'm like, "What are we doing?" He goes, "When are you gonna put the drone down?" And I go, [90:40] "I'm flying the drone at full speed to keep up with the boat." And I just crash-landed the drone [90:44] on the side of the river near a big tree. I just said, "Forget it. We'll get it later." [90:46] And I was like, "Fine. This happens all the time." "They get mad. They [90:50] chase us. It's no big deal." And I smiled at him, and JJ's smiling. He goes, "This is [90:54] so bad." [90:55] And he's smiling. And JJ looked at me, and the smile fell off him like a mask, and he [90:59] looked at me, and he was like, "This is not good." And we kept going upriver [91:05] and luckily, there was a camp of police that we've worked with quite a [91:09] bit. And I went to a friend of mine, and [91:13] I remember we got off the boat. I shook his hand. He said, "What's going on?" I said, "Look downriver, and [91:17] there's a boat tearing upriver towards us." And he did three things. He [91:22] got the rest of the guys, they armed up, they got on the boat with guns. They [91:26] put ski masks on. They got ready for combat. They told us to get down. He also [91:30] said, "Hey, turn on the sat-link. Call for support back [91:34] home." We turned our boat around. And as soon as the [91:37] narcos, which we didn't even realize were narcos [91:41] chasing us. We thought we were looking at loggers. [91:43] When they saw the guns and they saw us face them, they turned their boat around, and they went back [91:47] downriver. So we got escorted downriver, and I [91:51] remember shaking his hand, my friend, and saying, "Thank you [91:55] for saving us today." And telling the other guys they did a good [91:59] job. I said, "Get back upriver." We'd been brought home safe. This is hours later. [92:03] I said, "Good job. Thank you so much." And they went [92:07] and then that night, I'm sitting at the station that you know. [92:11] know. And I get a phone call from Stefan. And he [92:15] He goes, "Pick up the phone." I go, "I'm in the middle of a conversation." [92:19] He goes, "Pick up the phone." And my friend, whose hand I had just shaken, [92:26] they went back upriver, and as they were unloading their boat and washing off in the stream, [92:30] the narcos did a drive-by and shotgun straight to the chest, [92:34] shot him in the chest. And so all of that enthusiasm, [92:37] and "We're protecting the biodiversity" and "This is so great," [92:41] there's people from around the world... it's like that scene in the movie [92:45] where there's a montage of success and hope and acres and winning—gunshot. [92:53] And I could still feel his hand in my hand. I just shook his hand. I said, "No." [92:57] I said, "Well, is he okay?" He said, "He took a shotgun straight to the chest." [93:00] And they're like, "He's dead." I said, "Okay." [93:04] And so I had to go out to dinner and not show the guests anything, [93:10] and just smile and laugh and talk to them about whatever and keep that in, [93:13] which felt very, very difficult to do. [93:17] And so what happened, as you said, the threat level escalated and we didn't know it. [93:25] The narcos had come in and started realizing that there's so much wilderness here [93:29] that they can operate and there's no police. And then when we flew the drone, [93:32] they got mad. So we realized this. [93:38] We communicated with the police and they said, "Oh yeah, these are narcos." [93:42] Now we realize this is part of the serious drug mafia. [93:46] And then I had gone back—with the incident you're referring to at the end of the book, [93:50] I had gone back to New York, again, to speak to donors to try and get this work to continue. [94:02] You know how it works. We're at the station, then you go to that little logging town, [94:06] and then there's a road. And so our pickup truck had come in on the road, [94:10] and JJ was supposed to come down, get in the truck and drive back to the city. [94:17] JJ was on the river and went, "I forgot I was supposed to get more stuff at the city." [94:20] He goes, "You know, I'll go tomorrow." He went back up and sent the boat driver down, [94:28] and told our driver, Percy, who was waiting with the pickup truck, "JJ's not coming today." [94:32] "Go back and come back tomorrow." Percy starts driving down the road [94:35] and he sees a tree across the road. [94:39] This is a single-lane road through the jungle; there's nowhere else you can go, [94:43] and men with guns come and stick the pistols in through the open windows, [94:46] gun against his head. They pull him out and they go, "Where's JJ?" [94:50] And "¿Donde está el gringo volador?" They said, "Where's that shithead gringo [94:54] that flew the drone?" And if either of us had been in the car that day, [94:58] if either of us had been in the car that day, they would have killed [95:01] they took his phone, our driver Percy's. Thank God, they didn't hurt him, [95:05] driver, Percy. They, thank God, they didn't hurt [95:08] but they sent a message to us. They said, "Let them know." [95:12] They said, "We missed you this time, but we'll get you next time. We're gonna get you." [95:16] And so when JJ called me, he was howling. He just had that [95:27] adrenaline and that emotion of that it almost happened. [95:33] And so that was... that changed everything. And so since then we've [95:36] been, you know, it's not counting butterflies and taking ecological [95:40] surveys, it's that there's a drug war being fought on our [95:43] river. And now when these roads come in, we can't just [95:48] go out and meet these people anymore and talk to them, 'cause they are [95:51] actively looking to shoot us. They know our names, and then... [95:55] as if all these other things weren't enough indication, the police intercepted a [95:59] phone from someone they arrested, and on the phone, in the WhatsApp chat, it [96:03] said, "If you see JJ or the gringo, anyone in our network, please [96:07] kill them. You'll be rewarded." So we both have a hit out on us [96:12] and life on the river has changed. At the moment, we don't... [96:16] we can't... I can't just go out walking around, swimming and [96:20] driving my boat. You have to be looking over your [96:23] shoulder at all times. You can get as trained as you want with a pistol [96:27] and sleep with it under your pillow, but the way these [96:31] people work, they'll catch you when you're least expecting it. They'll wait till you're at a cafe in [96:35] town. They'll wait till your motor doesn't work on the side of the river. It'll just be a [96:39] quick one and they'll go. And so that feeling, on [96:43] top of the weight of- of protecting the ecosystem and [96:47] the animals, and the race to tell people about it and do all this, it's like [96:51] now we're actively being hunted when we're there. [96:54] - And this is very directed at you and JJ? [96:59] So they really don't care about the others. They understand. [97:05] Are you afraid? What's it been like living with this, [97:13] with the real fear of being murdered at any moment? [97:20] - I wish I could say I handled it better than I've been handling it. [97:24] I wonder how people in war zones do it. [97:28] I wonder how some of my soldier friends that I have immense respect for did it when they were [97:32] deployed, 'cause for me, once this happened, it was, [97:36] every phone call now I think, "Did something happen to JJ?" [97:40] Every time I go to sleep, my dreams are that I'm being shot. And [97:50] it really threw me. It really affected me. When JJ called me, the [97:54] way he was just shouting... I don't even remember what he was saying. He was just [97:58] shouting, "They almost got us! They almost got us!" He was so, [98:02] terrified and angry and, [98:06] so yeah, it's... There was a day not long ago that I was swimming [98:09] in the river. And I was just in the river, you know, right in front of the stairs [98:13] at the station, and a boat came around the bend. And I remember [98:17] thinking, "Do I run? Do I go underwater? Do I hide? What the [98:21] hell do I do?" I didn't have a gun near me. The security people were up the stairs. [98:25] You go, "Holy shit." And it's not the [98:29] danger of, "if I jump on an anaconda, it might kill me," or "if I climb this, I [98:33] might fall." These are people who want to kill you. And on top of it, you have [98:39] the, you know... When you see what your friend looks like after [98:47] three days of floating in a river, what a body looks like of a person you used to [98:50] know, that's very viscerally terrifying because there's the tragedy of [98:56] that, that person lost his life, [99:00] who was younger than I was. He was a kid. He was in his 20s. [99:04] And it's just very hard, it's very hard to do [99:08] anything because... I mean, like right now, my hands are sweating. [99:12] It affects me. And even in the daylight, if I can go, "You know, it's fine. This is [99:16] part of the thing," you know? This is the adventure, people deal with this all over the world. [99:20] You can talk yourself tough and then, in those quiet [99:24] moments, you wake up at 4:00 AM and you go, "Fuck." You know, [99:28] "Why am I sweating? Why did I just have those dreams? Why is my heart racing?" [99:32] It sinks its way into your subconscious and it's just not what we signed up for. [99:40] We wanted to just protect this beautiful place and this is this whole [99:43] new threat. We're not trained for this. We're not a [99:49] police or military force and it's like we've now seen violence on a scale that [99:58] we were very unprepared for. And so, just two days ago, I [100:02] was on my way to you and my phone rang at nine o'clock at night and it was JJ. [100:05] And my heart was jackhammering. I had to pull over [100:09] because I was going, "What news now?" You know? "Did we lose another [100:13] bunch of acres? Is it a new road? Did somebody die?" It really scatters you. [100:20] - In some sense, it's a twist that you didn't ask for and it doesn't [100:24] necessarily have anything to do with the fight you're fighting, which is [100:28] protecting the rainforest. But because of it being [100:32] pristine and quiet and away from civilization, it also becomes a place where, [100:39] you can have airstrips. It becomes lawless in a [100:43] certain way because it's so far away from civilization. [100:46] - Yeah. It's the only place that they can operate with impunity. [100:49] There's no police out there. And so they saw us helping the police [100:54] and they went, "Cut the head off the snake." And, you know, Chico Mendes, Dorothy [101:01] Stang—the list of environmental defenders that are assassinated in the [101:05] Amazon every year is huge. [101:09] There are endless examples of it. It's staggering. I forget the [101:14] exact numbers, but every year we lose local [101:18] leaders who are trying to stop an oil company or a drug cartel, and they [101:22] just shoot them because they know that one person who's able to rally [101:26] that support, who has that voice, if you just shoot [101:28] them, usually it ends the thing and then they can go back to [101:32] doing whatever the hell they want. And so right now, [101:35] we're working very closely with the Peruvian government. People [101:39] assume that, you know, a Latin American government is automatically [101:43] corrupt, but we found that these are really good people that want to [101:48] help their citizens. And the police have been working very [101:52] hard to stop the narcos, to protect the local indigenous [101:56] people because with the narcos comes human trafficking. With a team [102:03] of male narcos that are out in the woods making [102:07] drugs, they want prostitutes. And how do they get prostitutes? They go steal [102:11] girls from indigenous communities that don't know any better. [102:15] Then there's reports that the narcos have made contact with the uncontacted [102:18] tribes. And of course, they're gonna shoot machine guns at them. They're not gonna have a [102:22] shotgun where it's a fair fight. They're gonna mow them down and the uncontacted tribes are [102:26] gonna have no idea. That's why I posted a video [102:30] of me in the rain saying, "This is endgame," because there was a new [102:34] road that was coming off the north of our territory [102:38] above the ancient forest. They had jumped over 'cause we stopped it at the ancient forest. [102:42] They've gone above the ancient forest. Now, they're trying to cut down to a new [102:46] area. And so it looks like this, like that. ...Trans-Amazon... [102:57] Stefan made this map, of course. But you see the area that we're trying to [103:00] protect loosely, so that we don't give away anything... [103:04] Loosely, the area that we are protecting. So, the light green is the 130,000 acres— [103:09] ...and then this metastasizing network of roads just reaching out and trying to get [103:12] in. And so they're trying to come in from the north where that arrow is, [103:17] they're trying to come down. And so the police are fighting them along this— [103:21] ...and it's a full-on drug war right now. And so, [103:25] stopping that, securing this northern boundary. And again, just the [103:29] power of what we have. When I posted this, I asked Stefan to make, [103:34] show people the road and where it's going to go. [103:37] We posted this video and said, "We have to protect this 100,000 acres right now." And [103:41] all up here is uncontacted tribe territory. [103:44] And just from that one post, we got $150,000 in 48 hours and we bought this [103:51] concession. We stopped that road. But now they're up here— [103:55] ...and they're trying to come down. And this is the thing: it's [103:59] great. Yes, you get to be an adventurer and live in the jungle, sure. [104:03] But it's like this Mission: Impossible thing where [104:07] you might get lucky enough to pull off your psychotic mission. You know, jump your [104:11] motorcycle off the train and parachute down and stop the bomb before it goes [104:15] off. Great. How many of those do you get? And we're having to do it every month. [104:21] These amazing people [104:26] that are supporting the rangers allow us to patrol and protect this because once we have this land [104:29] protected, the interesting thing is that the police can go into any of the [104:33] light green areas. If anybody's there, just arrest them. [104:37] They're on Junglekeepers' land, they're out. And eventually that land will [104:41] become national park if we're successful. The problem with the land that's [104:45] not is it's a gray area. It's the middle of the Amazon, are they [104:48] allowed to be here? Do they really have cocaine? Because they'll plant papaya [104:52] for acres and a little bit of cocaine behind it. You know, they'll put the [104:56] sacks... They're sneaky. And so they have to build a case, and it takes time, and [105:00] then the road comes in... You know, and in that time, they'll knock off a police officer. [105:04] And it's like if we were just able to get this tomorrow, the whole [105:11] problem gets solved. We could give the police two more [105:14] boats, and then they could do all the patrolling they need. [105:17] - So the mission is clear. [105:18] - The mission is very clear. The problem is that right now we've been playing defense [105:22] and sustaining losses. And either we need [105:26] to inspire enough people that the donor program goes through the roof, and [105:30] instead of having several thousand donors, we have, you know, 50,000 donors [105:34] and we will raise... We need $20 million to save [105:38] the rest of the corridor. We'd raise $20 million overnight with enough people. Or [105:44] we need one of these people that has the resources to come in like [105:47] Batman and just go, "I want the park named after me [105:51] and I'm just gonna come in and give you the $20 million." And then we do it tomorrow, [105:55] and then we make a documentary about how we saved a river and the tribe and the monkeys and [105:59] the... But right now, we're... [106:05] you know, begging on the side of the road for enough change to buy [106:08] bullets so that we can stay alive. [106:12] - So these narcos, they're... There's a kind of distributed [106:16] network where a bunch of them are pretending to be farmers. So they're [106:20] holding onto the land and then maybe they start planting cocaine on the land- [106:28] ...slowly, and they build the airstrips. Are they trying to stay under the canopy [106:33] with the airstrip? [106:33] - It's brilliant. First what they do is they [106:38] subsidize the poorest people and they say, "Go up this river, turn left at the tree [106:45] and just start there." And they're like, "Here's a few grand." And these people are like, "I [106:49] never had a few grand before." They're like, "Buy gasoline. Here's a chainsaw. Go clear some [106:53] land." They send these people up there, and then when they show up a year later [106:56] and these people have made an illegal farm out in the jungle, they go, "Hey, we need a safe [107:00] house. Remember that time we gave you gasoline and now you live here? You're gonna [107:04] work for us now." And so they're kind of a friend of the people like that, [107:08] and they have safe houses all over the jungle. And then when the bosses come to [107:12] collect what they're growing out there... I mean, the police busted [107:16] a narco operation that was in the middle of the jungle. [107:20] I mean, hiking to the ancient forest [107:22] days into the jungle. These people are going on foot with sacks and stuff. [107:27] And the way they do their airstrips is you think the canopy of the rainforest [107:31] is 150 or 160 feet tall. And if you [107:34] clear the interior of the landing strip, the trees are still meeting [107:38] overhead. And so you can't fly over and see down— [107:42] ...which is the same reason we didn't know about the road that was going to the ancient forest, [107:46] because overhead the trees are meeting, so you're not going to see it on satellite [107:49] and you're not going to see it from a plane. And these bush pilots fly in and they'll just duck [107:53] in under the canopy, land their plane, load up, and then they fly [107:57] out. I mean, expert pilots. [108:01] - So it's impossible to detect. [108:03] - It's almost impossible to detect. We're working with people now. You [108:06] know, it's this arms race. They've been going okay. There are drone [108:10] programs. I talked to someone that has a different type of drone, a [108:13] 16-foot drone that uses the [108:17] thermals to climb up and has solar panels on the wings and flies for two weeks at a time. [108:21] It's like a glider- [108:22] ...that recharges itself. And it'll keep constant imagery, so we'll get [108:26] almost up-to-the-moment data on disturbances in the canopy. And it's like, [108:30] well, that'll be a first-hand alert system, but then we've gotta [108:34] get the police out there which, as you know, is a two-day [108:37] expedition by boat, and it's the only way. And [108:40] so the local police force there may be dedicated, but putting [108:44] people on a multi-day expedition to go get shot at in the jungle is nobody's idea of a [108:48] good time. [108:49] - Have you researched into this whole other world of [108:53] Drug trafficking, cocaine trafficking? How big is the [108:57] operation? Looking at Perplexity— [109:00] ...a multi-thousand ton, multi-billion dollar global industry? [109:05] - I mean, globally it's a monster. [109:07] - Colombia, Peru, Bolivia. And they move north and east through the Americas, the [109:13] Caribbean, and the Atlantic to reach major consumer markets. This is a machine [109:22] fueled by a lot of money and a lot of brutality. [109:27] Number of cocaine users worldwide is about 25 million people. [109:32] - Users. [109:33] - Users. So there's a market. [109:35] And when there's a market, you're going to find the way. [109:39] Quick pause. Bathroom break. All right, and we're back. [109:47] Me, as somebody who is afraid of heights, [109:51] and I've had a chance to interact with you a bunch, you're in [109:55] some sense fearless and I've watched you climb a lot [109:59] of trees. You've helped me climb a tree. And there's this [110:03] wonderful part of the book where you talk about finding the tallest tree [110:07] in the forest you knew at the time, and that was something that you [110:11] passed and thought was impossible to climb. And you talk about climbing it. [110:15] You take us through the experience of that. And that leads you to seeing the [110:20] Mist River in the rainforest as the sun rises. I was [110:24] wondering if you could talk through the story of that, [110:28] both for me, but even for you at that time, the [110:31] terrifying process of climbing a tree like [110:35] that for the first time with J.J. at the bottom [110:39] cheering you on, and what it felt like to see the Mist River. [110:44] - That tree, you've met that tree. She's a good one. Her [110:48] base is at least as big as this room, and she's probably about [110:54] 160-something feet tall. And so when you're looking at [110:58] these giant buttress roots going up, which I'd been doing for 18 [111:02] years at that point, I always said, "Man, if I could just climb it." [111:06] I'd never had the rope skills, and I'd developed as a rock climber. [111:10] I was working on strength, and I trained for it. It's like most things. [111:15] You can't just do it. I'd climb up 30 feet and go, "No [111:18] way." The trunk of the tree goes vertical [111:22] for about 70 feet before branches even come out, so there's just this one [111:26] big vine. And J.J. and I did it at, [111:31] I want to say like 4:00 AM, really early. The howler monkeys [111:35] had just started. And you start climbing with the rope up this vine, [111:43] and you have to... It's not technical. It's a strength climb. You gorilla up [111:47] this vine, and it's all back strength. And so I did it no shirt, [111:51] no shoes, straight up, and J.J. had the belay device. And so every [111:55] 30 feet or so, I would put in a piece of webbing and a [111:58] carabiner. You go up another 30 feet, and you don't know what you're [112:02] gonna find. And you're going up in the dark. [112:05] - So when you say a lot of strength is involved, there are very few [112:09] places to rest. You're essentially just lifting the whole time. [112:12] So it's extremely exhausting. [112:13] - Extremely exhausting. I really trained for a long time, and there is [112:17] no rest. The only rest you get hurts. You have to [112:21] cling to the tree and your feet are smeared against the bark. You're [112:25] holding on with your toes. And if you fall, you know, if [112:29] you're climbing up—this is basically trad climbing—if you're climbing up [112:33] and you put a safety—a piece of rope with a carabiner—and you [112:37] put my rope through that... It's dangerous because if you fall, [112:41] you fall. Right before you put the next [112:44] one, you're going to fall double. If you climb 30 feet, you fall 60 feet. [112:48] And your head's going to smack the tree. As you climb, you don't know [112:52] if you'll reach a wasp nest or a venomous snake. [112:56] - And there's a lot of those in those trees. [112:58] - A lot of those. It took me over an hour just to get to the branches [113:02] the first time. It's full exertion, everything I had. And then you get [113:06] to where the branches are above you, each the size of a mature oak tree. [113:10] They're just these huge branches. [113:14] Thick as a minivan. You're climbing up this straight tree [113:18] that's like the World Trade Center. It's huge. Then I had to traverse [113:22] the tree on vines, and finally I get up into the crown of this tree. [113:26] From there, I called down to J.J. and I just see this little speck of [113:31] light, 85 feet below me. Then I climbed up to about 120 feet, [113:35] which is up here, and I sat there. [113:39] - And you're doing all this still in darkness. [113:42] - We're doing all this in the pre-dawn light. And so when I got up [113:45] there, now the howler monkeys are going and the jungle's starting [113:49] to vibrate. You can hear the first macaws starting to chirp; everything's starting to turn [113:53] on. And in the east, the sun is coming over the jungle, and so the [113:57] sun, when the first rays [114:00] get line of sight to the canopy of the jungle, it starts lifting the mist off the [114:03] canopy. All of that moisture starts coming up, and I'm sitting on this branch [114:08] at 100-something feet above the ground with dark jungle below [114:11] me, and all of a sudden I see the river. [114:15] I see the Mist River I'd always heard about. They say that [114:18] there's a river above the Amazon, an invisible river that [114:22] has more moisture and that more water is flowing above the Amazon than is flowing in [114:26] the Amazon. And I'd heard this my whole life and you think, "Okay, the fact that there's a [114:29] molten core of the Earth or that black holes theoretically exist." It's just like the, one of [114:33] those things, you're never going to see it." And in this moment on this tree, [114:37] sweating and just ripped apart and bleeding, I was sitting up there and I [114:41] saw the Mist River and it was flowing over the [114:44] canopy in the golden rays of the morning, and the macaws [114:48] start taking flight and there were monkeys below me that were looking [114:51] up. And you could tell they were confused. They were looking at me going, "What is that?" [114:55] And I just had this absolutely incredible moment. I wanted [114:58] to... You know, it felt like you're seeing God. I [115:02] wanted to share it with everyone. You know, I felt, I felt guilty [115:08] afterwards for having had a moment like that. But it felt like I had done [115:11] this insane risk and [115:15] risked falling out of the tree or getting strung up on the ropes, and of [115:19] course it's just me and J.J., so if something goes wrong, no one's going to help [115:23] you. And being out there on that branch felt suicidal because [115:27] even then, if you fall, it's a giant swing back to the tree. But the [115:31] beauty that I saw up there was so intense that it, you know, it sucked the [115:39] air right out of my lungs. I had tears in my eyes and I'm just watching [115:43] this incredible process flow over the Earth, this legendary [115:47] thing that I'd heard about, that scientists described, and now I'm seeing it with my [115:51] own eyes. It was... it felt like the gift of the tree. [115:56] - And you write, "Now, in the branches of the greatest tree in the jungle, I [115:59] watched as the Mist River caught the morning rays, illuminating golden [116:03] currents, swirling as it rushed over the canopy like a stream from [116:07] heaven. In the troughs and basins in lower areas, [116:11] the river was deep blue. But then, as it flowed up and [116:15] over the taller trees, slow rapids washing over the canopy, the [116:19] Mist River became ignited, electrified in the gold [116:22] magnificence of the sunlight. Scores of birds flew [116:26] up, in and out of the churning currents. [116:30] The life and breath of the Amazon was flowing from north to south along the basins [116:34] of Las Piedras over the jungle. My God. My God. I thought of everyone I [116:41] loved, of every creature contained in the leafy [116:44] distance. The jungle itself was like a great being, a [116:48] monstrous leviathan of warm green might. I [116:52] wanted to call down to JJ and tell him to find a way up. I [116:56] wanted my mother to see it. I wanted the world to see it. The light [117:00] filled my eyes, and I found myself wiping away [117:03] tears." You know, I should take the small tangent [117:09] of saying the obvious, but the thing that needs to be said [117:14] is you're a great writer. [117:15] - Thank you. I mean it, come on. I'm just describing what happened, but... [117:20] - All right. You mentioned macaws as part of the process of The Jungle Waking Up. [117:25] I read that when you first start in the jungle, that's kind of your [117:29] job is studying those. And me as a fan of monogamy and birds... [117:35] So macaws are beautiful, but they're also monogamous creatures. [117:39] They scream at each other quite loudly. What are some interesting [117:44] things about them? Among which, by the way, you write how important [117:47] the ironwoods are to— ...their wellbeing, to their life. [117:53] - Yeah, I mean, when I went down there, like I said, [117:57] for young people, if you want to get out there, go do it. I agreed to stay at the station [118:01] and do six hours of macaw research every morning. [118:05] So you'd wake up before dawn and go sit and just stare at the side of the river. [118:09] And the macaws would show up- [118:11] ...and like you said, they all scream and bicker at each other. It's just how they [118:14] talk. It's very, very loud, and very, very harsh. [118:18] But they do love each other. They're always... [118:22] You can actually hear when you walk through the forest; I know what the sound of [118:25] macaws giving affection is. They make a certain kind of sound when [118:29] they're just preening each other's feathers and taking care of each [118:32] other and just nuzzling. And then there's a different call altogether when [118:36] they're yelling at other macaws or saying, "Let's go." And you start to learn [118:40] macaw language. [118:42] - What have you learned about relationships and successful marriage [118:46] from listening to macaws screaming at each other in nuanced different ways? [118:52] - Well, I guess... [118:54] - Never mind, you can skip that question. [118:56] - Yeah. It's interesting to see two animals sticking by each other's side [119:00] raising a chick. And at the bottom of the stairs at the station, there is a macaw [119:04] nest in an ironwood. And the relationship that you mentioned is [119:08] that in the jungle, there's a limited amount of macaw real estate. [119:11] And those are all ancient ironwood trees, at least 500 years or more. [119:15] So they have to be thick. Car-thickness or bigger. And [119:23] when a branch falls off, it creates a hollow and the macaws use that to reproduce. [119:26] And because there's only so many nest sites in the forest, only about [119:30] 17 to 20% of the macaw population reproduces in a given year. [119:34] given year. So they have a slow replacement rate. And [119:37] macaws are one of the things that people come to the jungle to [119:41] see. And so along with gold mining and logging and all these extractive [119:45] things, in our region, ecotourism has been great. It's [119:49] given the local people jobs as guides, cooks, and chefs [119:53] and carpenters. And so macaws are a huge part of that because [119:57] it's one of the last places where you can see these flying rainbows over the canopy. [120:01] Or when you're on a branch from one of these trees and the macaws fly under you. [120:07] And again, they'll fly by. You just hear the [120:11] wind in their feathers. And they just look [120:15] at you over their shoulder, like, "What?" And just keep going. [120:19] Just loud, and they'll just keep going. Then they'll join up with other macaws and they fly across the [120:23] horizon. And it gives you this sense like you're seeing something [120:27] from the dinosaur times. It just looks like [120:31] wild jungle, and there's nothing human in sight. There's just this [120:35] savage canopy to the horizon and just these beautiful birds flying over. [120:39] It's just... they're just magical. [120:42] - You have this Instagram post with an anaconda around [120:46] your neck. There's a million questions. Maybe you can talk [120:49] about that experience, but also, how did you not die? [120:53] - So as you know, we've been studying the habits [120:57] of Eunectes murinus for quite a while. [121:01] The lowland green anaconda is the largest, heaviest snake on earth. And [121:07] I've been practicing a lot for a long time, and this is the [121:11] biggest one we've ever physically caught. This was just under [121:15] 20 feet. It was 19 feet something. And you can see [121:19] she's in the middle of shedding. And the other [121:23] interesting thing with her is that she had blue eyes because she was in the [121:27] middle of shedding. The scale over their eyes turns blue right [121:30] before it comes off. And so I've never caught a blue-eyed anaconda before. [121:34] But if you look at the size of my head and the size of my hands, you start to imagine [121:39] that thing's head is bigger than a Great Dane's. [121:41] It's huge. And the power on that—when [121:45] we tried to lift her to measure her, we wanted to bring her up out of the stream and [121:49] get her over to the side so we can straighten her out and measure her. [121:52] We're just trying to take some simple data points and then release her. [121:55] And she, at one point, just decided to flex her body, and you just see 10 people [121:59] fly this way, and then she's flexing the other way and 10 people fly this way. [122:03] And every time that mouth would open, she would try to... she'd just [122:06] reach back and be like, "Just let me do it." [122:09] And you know that if she gets purchase— [122:11] once they get purchase, they wrap you so quick and they'll [122:15] just crush the life out of you like you're a bag of chips. And if [122:19] you've ever seen a mouse in a mousetrap, when the trap goes down and the eyes come out? [122:23] And when snakes—anybody that's owned snakes and fed them mice knows [122:27] this—that sometimes if they catch it right, the guts will either come out the [122:31] back end or the front end. So, I'd imagine that the same thing will happen with a [122:34] snake that's that big. That's bigger than I am around. [122:39] - So, they have a process. When you say purchase, they want a bite just to hold and then [122:43] they— It's good. So... [122:44] - But again, all she wants is to be let go. In her defense, [122:48] this massive snake—we named her Millie for the data entry—she just wanted to go on [122:56] her way down the stream. The comments on this are hysterical. [123:01] People are like, "This is the worst example of white people shit [123:05] I've ever seen." I mean, Snoop Dogg shared it. So, one guy goes, [123:08] he goes, "Congratulations, you've touched enough grass. Go back inside." [123:14] - Yeah, somebody said, "Interesting use of free will." [123:18] Yeah, and I saw Killpopper007 commented— [123:24] and maybe you can tell me if this is correct: [123:26] "Anacondas are ambush predators. If you approach them, they will [123:30] usually try to flee and will not register you as food. There's [123:34] other reasons too." This is in response to how Paul possibly didn't die from this. [123:39] "There's other reasons too, but this is the main reason. They're pretty [123:43] much apex at that size, so their fear isn't as [123:46] prominent. He was calm, so the snake was calm. It's insane to do [123:52] and still risky, but he might actually be the most qualified [123:56] anaconda handler on Planet Earth. Paul is one [124:00] interesting cat." Hugging emoji. Is that accurate? [124:05] - Yes. At that size, they're apex, so they're really not thinking [124:09] about defense. They're just like, "Get off me." [124:11] If I was to hurt her—like if I was to touch you in the arm with [124:15] a needle—you'd react. If I was to do anything that hurt her, which [124:19] I'm not doing, she would turn around and bite me to say, "Go away." But [124:23] they also don't want to bite because their recurved teeth make it very difficult to [124:27] detach. And also, they're putting their head at the source of the [124:31] danger. It's not a good calculation. And so these giants— [124:34] and I've had the privilege of interacting with four or five [124:40] anacondas in the 20 to 26-foot range—all of them have [124:44] been very Leviathan-like. And they just don't [124:47] wanna move. They just wanna keep going. And he's [124:51] 100% right on all of that stuff. I've caught [124:55] 90-something anacondas at this point, and many of them have been [124:59] massive. Then there's the one that JJ and I didn't get at the Floating Forest because it was bigger [125:02] than— bigger than we could tackle, bigger than my hands. I couldn't touch [125:06] fingers. But every single one of them has chosen flight [125:10] over fight. Only the little babies and the smaller [125:14] males get snappy. They'll come back at you like a normal snake, and if you grab their tail, [125:18] they'll try and bite you and then go. But these big females, [125:21] you know, they're like dragons. They're like these big, legendary things that live [125:25] in swamps, and the only reason they've gotten that big is because they have a [125:28] reliable prey source in a secluded place away [125:32] from humans, and they've been there for decades just pulling things [125:35] down to hell and eating them. And the other [125:39] thing... I mean, look, I have a team with me. You know? So... [125:43] - So, there's people holding the— [125:44] - Yeah. Let's be real here. I would never do this. If I was out in the jungle [125:48] by myself at night, doing this would be suicide, [125:52] 100%, because for every second that I'm going, "Oh, I'm in this [125:56] water and she's over my neck," if JJ wasn't there to jump in and unwrap her— [126:01] ...then I die. 100%. [126:03] - Because she's continuously wrapping. [126:06] - She's on her back saying, "Come in here," [126:12] "and let me arm bar you. Let me squeeze the guts out of you." She's just [126:16] going, "Let it happen." [126:17] - And moving slowly. [126:18] - Moving really slow— [126:20] - Conjuring [126:20] - with that assurance of power where she doesn't need to try and tap you quick. [126:24] She's going to get you eventually. [126:25] - Although, to push back on something you just said, having known you long [126:28] enough, let's be honest. You're saying I wouldn't be insane enough to do it. [126:33] I think you would be. I mean, there's... [126:38] There's a line of insanity, and you, my friend, walk that line [126:45] masterfully so far. I think [126:49] when you're able to sense the animal, whether it's crocodiles, [126:53] caiman, or anacondas, and maybe radiate a sense of calm— [127:00] I've seen you be able to go into some dangerous situations, [127:06] and make it seem like it's not dangerous at all. And maybe when you [127:10] become one with the ecosystem, maybe [127:14] you're not a threat to it, and maybe that's why [127:17] you can survive? I haven't been able to make sense of it, really. [127:21] - Look, I would say this. In the case of elephants, if we ever end up in Africa [127:27] together, I can get incredibly close to elephants because I've spent enough [127:31] time with them where, time with them where, so far, it's always been a mock [127:38] charge. And you can be one with the [127:41] elephant and learn their language enough that you [127:45] respect their boundaries and you also show them that, this [127:49] better be serious because you're either going to have to kill me, or just turn around and go back to [127:53] eating. And you can have that exchange with them. [127:57] With smaller snakes, I'll be careful. I can tell you with [128:00] this that when you have both of your hands around an anaconda's [128:04] neck... I truly... I mean, I've been known to surprise [128:07] myself with the decisions I make, but this alone would lead to death, 100%. [128:16] It's like laying down in front of an 18-wheeler with it in neutral. "It's going to roll [128:20] over you." This is going to turn into [128:23] anaconda handcuffs with this thickness, and then that [128:27] is going to wrap you with this thickness, and then six more of those are going to go around your [128:31] body and you will get squeezed and you will turn into goop. [128:36] Just like that guy said, she probably is in defense mode and not food mode, so she'll [128:40] probably just neutralize the threat and then go back to sleep. [128:47] - I have to ask you about the floating forest. And you write about Santiago, [128:52] once again, beautifully in the book, of the time when he told [128:56] you the stories and when your mind and eyes were still fresh [129:00] and maybe skeptical and more leaning towards the [129:04] Western world point of view versus the jungle point of [129:07] view. "Santiago's eyes were glowing in the darkness. He watched [129:11] the orange ember spark upward to join the celestial river of [129:14] stars that arched across the night sky as if the memories [129:18] were written there. He squinted, his face as wrinkled and [129:22] weathered as an old map of the world. Vast experience [129:26] whispered in the firelight, as ephemeral as the breath that [129:30] spoke the words, but powerful enough to latch on and [129:33] sink down into some deep part of me." This is Pico saying, "Papa, tell me about [129:40] the anaconda on the blackwater stream." And, [129:44] He tells a story of that, and he talks about it being big and having horns. [129:50] And you write once again masterfully about you at that [129:54] time having doubts. It sounds like bullshit, but [129:58] now more and more of the things you've seen in the jungle [130:02] and the things you sense you have not seen yet, all of those stories seem to be [130:10] true. The one he was referring to was maybe 36 feet [130:14] long, this big. He says that, "The [130:18] floating forest is the place you need to go, Gringo, [130:22] if you want to be liberated of your doubts and skepticism." So tell me about the [130:28] anacondas you've encountered in the floating forest. [130:32] - Well, the thing he's describing there is that he's saying they found an anaconda that [130:36] had horns. [130:37] And in that moment, we were all hanging out by the side of the river and I said, "That's [130:41] enough." I stood up. I was like, "Come on, there's no anaconda that has horns." [130:45] And if I've learned anything in 20 years of living with the [130:49] indigenous people in the Amazon, it's that they're not wrong. You know, if they say [130:53] there's a tribe of naked people with arrows out there, [130:56] they're right, they're right. And they know what an [131:00] anaconda looks like. So if he says he saw an anaconda with [131:03] horns, he saw something that ain't a normal anaconda. And a smaller version of [131:09] this played out recently where one of the people that works [131:13] at the tree house, he came and he said, "I found a [131:17] snake and it was in the water tank." And he goes, "And it had [131:21] green spikes on it." And I said, [131:24] "There's no snake that has green spikes." I said, "Congratulations, you're an idiot." [131:28] I made fun of him. [131:29] And I said, "I know all the snake species that are here. None of them have spikes. [131:32] There's no snake that has spikes coming off of it." And he said, "No, it had long spikes." [131:36] He said, "The snake is this big and had spikes this long on it." And I said, "There's no snake with [131:40] spikes." Until finally he came and he got me in the [131:44] night and he goes, "The snake with spikes is there." And I said, "Well, I'll get out of bed [131:48] for that. Let's go." And I said, "I guarantee it's not gonna be there." [131:51] And we got to the water tank and I shined my flashlight down and [131:55] sure as shit, there's a snake in there and it's got [131:59] thousands of green spikes coming off of it. And I could see the snake head [132:05] and then the spikes are coming completely perpendicular out from its [132:08] body. And for a second, I really was having this out-of-body experience. And then the [132:12] snake saw us, got scared and swam, and all of the [132:16] the spikes collapsed onto its body and became smooth. [132:20] And then I realized the snake had been living in the stagnant water for a while and developed [132:24] algae that was growing off of it. So when it was sitting still, all [132:28] the algae would settle out. [132:31] And so if you look straight down on it, it's a water snake that has algae growing [132:35] on it. And so it does look like a snake with spikes. He's not wrong. [132:39] It was a water snake. It was some sort of Helicops. [132:42] But there's always an answer like that. [132:44] - Amazing. [132:45] - They're not wrong. So when they tell you something like, "There's an [132:49] anaconda with horns," and multiple people have seen it— [132:52] ...you make an expedition there. [132:54] If somebody said there's giant ground sloths in this valley, I wouldn't be like, "They're extinct." [132:58] I'd be like, "Where?" You start to listen. I mean, after, [133:02] after the tribe walked out of the forest, you could tell me anything. [133:05] That day, if a Tyrannosaurus rex walked out behind them, I would've been like, "Makes [133:09] sense." [133:10] - Let's go to the floating forest. Do you ever think about what creatures are in [133:14] there? I just had a conversation with [133:17] Michael Levin at Tufts University. He's this biologist [133:21] who creates biological life forms in the [133:25] lab, but he also studies all kinds of weird, what he calls [133:29] unconventional intelligences on Earth. And he speaks [133:33] about that from a perspective of just understanding the [133:37] incredible intricacies and weirdnesses of biological [133:40] systems. So the soup of organisms that's there in the floating forest is probably [133:48] incredible. Do you ever think about what kind of weirdness is there? [133:53] - Yeah. Along with giant snakes, there are animals existing in [134:01] an ecosystem that's isolated, right? And so the tepuis... [134:05] In the movie Up, those Venezuelan cliff jungles with the straight walls, [134:09] like Angel Falls? Up there you have this allopatric speciation [134:12] occurring where these isolated communities are departing from whatever's down there. [134:18] So on the floating forest, you have this very unique ecosystem where [134:23] animals are living on grassy islands and in the tops of palm trees. [134:27] In that nightmare soup that exists beneath the rafts, there are [134:32] probably insects and, I mean, I've seen lizards there that we [134:36] have been unable to identify. There are things there in the... [134:40] I can't imagine the... [134:43] decay is probably not happening. There's not a lot of oxygen in that water. [134:47] I've brought a few scientists there and they've all just been like, [134:51] "This is... this is..." you know. [134:52] - Yeah. How do you even [134:53] - "How did this form?" We've brought hydrologists there and they're like, "How the hell did this [134:56] thing form?" And then trying to study what creatures live under that is amazing. [135:04] - But the big anacondas, it's interesting because they [135:08] truly are the apex, so they're unbothered. They're not really using [135:12] their power for anything. [135:14] - No, and I'm sure if I bit her, she'd turn around and kill me. [135:17] - Yeah, but in a bored kind of way. Like, it wouldn't even... [135:20] It would just slowly kill you. [135:22] - I wonder though, once she killed you, if she'd just be like- [135:27] - Just take a bite? [135:28] - I mean, would she bite? They swallow, right? [135:30] - Well- [135:31] - Once you collapse your shoulders, it's like if you killed [135:34] a perfectly good hamburger and it was like in your hands dead, you'd be like- [135:38] "Maybe I'll try it." [135:41] - I mean, they need the calories. [135:43] - Yeah, and then take a six-month nap. [135:47] - Yeah. They're truly incredible, majestic creatures. [135:51] - Yeah, I love this picture. Just, again, look at the size. [135:58] I want you one day to feel them. And again, the wild [136:02] ones are not like the captive ones, which are soft from sitting in a cage. [136:05] These guys have been flexing every day. It's like you're hitting steel cables. [136:11] It's just wild. [136:12] - And even if it's just being chill, you can probably get a hint of the power [136:15] it's capable of, right? [136:18] - The one good thing about those really big ones is that when they do strike, it's like [136:22] it's like being in a fight with a big fat guy. It's like that, [136:26] that haymaker comes from way back here and you're like- [136:28] ..."Oh, good." You're like, "I'm gonna duck." And you get down. Because [136:32] they open their mouth and they start accelerating. [136:37] And it's pretty easy to either get out of the way or, [136:40] you know, catch it before it hits you. [136:43] ...usually. Again, if you ever mess that up, just like the haymaker from the [136:47] big guy, it's over. [136:49] - Your level of knowledge and comfort with snakes is incredible. I think they [136:53] - Play with them a lot. [136:53] - ...sense that. I mean, I've seen you with snakes and they must sense it, because [136:57] they must sense in you the camaraderie. You have a way of [137:05] speaking to animals and about animals like there's zero danger. [137:09] Well, from my outsider perspective, it seems like a [137:13] lot of them are full of danger if you're not communicating to them correctly. [137:18] - With snakes, I think it's more of a [137:24] highway analogy: it's dangerous, but you can drive safely. [137:28] I know what I'm doing, so if I'm working with a snake that can't envenomate [137:31] me and is small, I can allow it to freak out. And then if I can get it [137:35] into my hands and it goes, "Ooh, it's nice in here." And of course, like [137:39] you said, I'm not scared. They are very sensitive to that, so he's going, "Okay, this [137:43] isn't so bad." You can chill him out. But I don't think snakes [137:47] have any camaraderie. I think that whales, monkeys, [137:51] elephants, I think they can sense. They can say, "Okay, this person's trying to help" [137:55] to get me out of this net. I'm gonna relax and not kill them." [137:59] In those cases, you have that dynamic. [138:00] - Speaking of an animal that does have camaraderie, there's this [138:04] incredible video on your Instagram that people should go watch where [138:08] incredible video where this spider monkey was drowning and you jumped in to rescue it. [138:12] - Sure. So we're coming down river. It's seven o'clock in the morning, [138:16] so I'm cold. I'm sitting on the boat and I'm wearing [138:20] whatever. JJ's like, "Look, spider monkey." And I go, "Great, [138:23] spider monkey in the river." That's normal. But JJ's like, "No, she's [138:27] having trouble." And I was like, "Why? They swim all the time." [138:30] And he goes, "You should help." So the boat comes around. [138:34] Then sure enough, what you can't see in the video is that the river was so full that there were these little [138:38] whirlpools and currents, and she was trying to get to the side. And again, all the animal rights people [138:41] are very quick to be like, [138:45] "Let nature take its course. Let the monkey drown." Or, "She doesn't need help. You're interfering." [138:49] Sure, sure, sure. If you were actually there, you would know [138:52] that she did need help and she was drowning. Her head kept going under. [138:56] And so I saw that JJ was right. And so we pull around. [139:00] I took off whatever I could in the moment, jumped in with the paddle— [139:04] because, now, here again, I trust monkeys, [139:08] but I don't want her to bite me. She is going to be scared, so I thought, there's two ways I can do this. [139:16] I can grab her by the neck and the tail and take her out of the river, which is going to be scary for her. [139:23] Instead I thought, "I know spider monkeys so well. I've raised so many of them." [139:27] And when you raise them, they curl up to your neck and they'll... [139:31] If you have an orphan spider monkey whose mother got shot by poachers and you're taking care of her [139:34] before we bring them to the animal rehabilitation experts, [139:39] they'll curl up on your neck and they'll go, "Oh, oh, oh, oh," [139:43] and they'll just talk to you in your ear. So I feel like I know a little bit of broken spider monkey. [139:50] I pull up next to her and I give her the paddle. [139:52] We're in this rushing river moving at 10 miles an hour downstream, [139:56] and I try to give her the paddle and she smacks it away. [140:00] She was like, "No, get away from me." Then she keeps swimming, goes under again, and I give her the paddle again. [140:04] She puts a hand around the paddle, and that moment that you paused on, she looked back at me. [140:08] She looked at me like—yeah, right there. She registered like, "Oh, this is [140:16] another animal with a face." [140:18] - For people just listening, you need to go watch the video. You guys are just looking at each other, [140:22] and she's looking right at you. It's so cool. [140:26] - She looked right at me, but then she went, "No." She was like, "Whatever you are, no." [140:30] She was like, "I'd rather die in the river." She was so scared and drowning, [140:33] and she looked at me and got scared and jumped back in. [140:36] Then I lifted her up and I went, "Oh, oh, oh, oh," and I started talking in spider monkey. [140:40] And she just... then, in the next moment, you see it. She just goes, "Sure." [140:48] And she wraps her tail... you see her tail is around the edge of the paddle. [140:52] She puts her hand around it, and then I lifted her. Because I'm taller than she is, I lifted her out of the river. [140:56] So now, instead of manhandling her like a raccoon you're catching by the neck [141:02] she's holding on in her spider monkey way to the paddle, and she [141:06] and she looks back over her shoulder. I'm sitting there going, "Oh, oh, oh, oh," talking to her in spider monkey. [141:10] And she looks at me, and you hear her. She goes... [141:13] I can't do the sound she makes, but she does this, "Whoa!" [141:17] spider monkey sound like, "Guh!" [141:19] And she goes, "Fine." And then she's looking off the front end of the paddle as she's [141:23] looking at the jungle, and she looks back at me and she's like... You could just tell. [141:26] She's like, "I have no idea what's happening." [141:28] But she accepted the help. And the difference is, it's because I [141:32] spoke her language in this case. And I know that would be one of those [141:35] stories that people would nail me on every time if it wasn't on camera. You can [141:39] see the moment that she makes direct eye contact with me and goes, "Okay." [141:45] And then as soon as we get to shore, she jumps off and runs off into the forest, but it was- [141:48] - It's so... I mean, just watching the video, it's so amazing. She's looking at [141:52] you. Like, real... You can see that there's an actual connection. [141:58] It's... that there's like communication, like a social... You know, the way [142:01] humans, when you're maybe [142:05] saving a human being that's drowning or something like this. [142:08] There's that connection. It was beautiful to see, man. And then I read [142:12] a little bit that spider monkeys have... [142:15] they're very intelligent, but they're especially socially intelligent. So they [142:19] have social connections with each other. So they understand what [142:23] that means. They understand what another entity means. So you [142:27] speaking it in a broken language, probably [142:32] is really important and a powerful way to indicate that, "Wow, you're [142:38] in network." Like a foreigner, but like [142:42] - It's like you're in a foreign country and someone goes, "Helping, helping." [142:45] - Yeah, exactly. [142:45] - Like, "Helping." And you go, "Okay, sure." Like, you know, "You're not [142:49] robbing me, you're helping," right? [142:51] But no, they're incredibly... And I'm telling you, I've had orphan spider monkeys so many [142:55] times. And they wrap their tail around your neck and they hug you. [143:01] And you realize that connection that they have with their mothers when they hold onto [143:05] them in the canopy... When the loggers shoot the mother and then I'm [143:08] taking care of this baby, they hold onto you. [143:11] And they need that love and that connection more than they need food. [143:16] If you put food or you put warmth of a body, they'll choose the connection [143:21] over the sustenance. [143:22] - Yeah, they really value the touching, that connection. [143:26] - Very tactile. They're very loving. [143:27] They wrap their long spider monkey arms around each other. [143:31] They're very much like us. They hold their babies. [143:35] When it rains, spider monkeys will get together and huddle up. [143:39] They'll pull leaves down and all huddle up together. When it's cold- [143:43] they get close. It's very cute. [143:45] - Yeah, I mean, they're distant relatives, but that's true for a lot of our [143:49] relatives. The apes, the chimps, all of them, they have this [143:53] intricate... They're different. Sometimes more violent, sometimes more loving. [143:57] But social interactions, it's cool that way. [143:59] - Yeah, I mean, you expect it from them. They're practically us. [144:03] To me, it's when other animals show. The times that I've [144:07] been on a trail and a jaguar has walked by and just been like, "'Sup?" [144:12] Keep walking. And it's like, "It's kind of cool of you not to eat me." [144:15] "I appreciate it." [144:16] - Has that happened to you? [144:18] - Yeah. I thought somebody was walking on the trail. I was doing a camera trap. [144:21] And I put my finger up and I was gonna go, "Could you walk any louder?" [144:24] - Oh, yeah. [144:25] - I'm crouched because I was doing a camera trap. A jaguar [144:29] walked by and he literally was just like shoom, shoom, kicking leaves, [144:32] just having fun, mouth open. And he just walked by, looked at me, [144:36] and went, "'Sup?" Never broke stride. [144:39] Dead-ass eye contact with the bottom teeth out and that jaguar look [144:43] of just like, "Hey." I was like, "Okay." Now I'm going to have a full meltdown. [144:49] Your system, you start sweating. [144:50] You're like, "Whoa." Because they're also so beautiful. [144:54] When you see a jaguar, it's bright yellow and the teeth and the muscles... [144:58] It's... You know... [145:00] - What do you think you communicated to the jaguar that it didn't kill you? [145:04] - No, nothing. The jaguar was making the decisions. I didn't do anything. [145:08] saved my life. He was just going somewhere. [145:11] And because he's the king there, he just went, "Uh." [145:16] - Yeah, probably also not threatened. [145:18] - Not threatened at all. [145:18] - I think there is something to you. You're just taking for granted [145:22] the things that you're putting out into the world. [145:25] You're probably radiating calm. Or not calm- but non-threat. [145:31] - Certainly non-threat. I also smell like an animal when I'm in the [145:34] jungle, right? I shower in the river. I don't use deodorant [145:38] or shampoo or any of that stuff. So I don't smell... [145:42] Imagine to animals that have a smell that's four times as good as [145:46] that's four times as good as ours, just your deodorant, your conditioner— [145:49] ... just whatever other products, the detergent on your clothes... [145:54] We smell like Times Square. We smell like a fire alarm to them. [145:59] They're like, "What is this thing? It smells very foreign and scary." [146:03] Everything's scary. Speaking of scary, the jaguar was kind of friendly. [146:07] He was like, "'Sup?" It's almost like he'd seen me before. [146:10] He was like, "Oh, it's just you." The one time I stood— [146:14] on the forest floor in India with a wild tiger and nobody else, [146:18] the thing the tiger did that was so unnerving... And again, a tiger's back [146:22] is... they're so much bigger than you think. It's like four jaguars. [146:26] They're so big. [146:29] She wouldn't look at me, and it was terrifying. She would look over there, [146:33] she would look like this, she would look like that, [146:37] and never eye contact. It was like, "You're as important to me as a stick." [146:41] When you see two fighters square up, it's all about the eye contact. [146:45] But you look through a person; you pretend they're not even there. [146:49] person. You pretend they're not even there. That- [146:53] That tiger insulted me on such a profound and disarming level [146:57] that I never forgot it. It was like, "You matter as much as a sparrow." [147:01] "You're just not one of the things that I care about." [147:05] She just was looking around and carried on doing it. [147:09] She was like, "I'm gonna walk this way." And I was just like, [147:13] "Holy shit, I'm gonna run." [147:15] It's just profound insignificance from this god of an animal [147:19] with paws the size of dinner plates. I was like, "Man, if she does look at me, [147:23] if she looks at me, I'm gonna probably..." [147:27] - That's the end. [147:27] - You know, that's the end. [147:28] - Yeah, it shows how much more powerful she is. That's probably the most [147:35] terrifying animal on earth. Tigers— [147:37] - The rock-paper-scissors of land predators. [147:40] I think the polar bear and tiger have to be the most scary. [147:44] - Yeah, polar bears. [147:45] - Polar bear's pretty scary. [147:46] - Yeah, you don't mess with a polar bear. [147:47] - I don't think they're as fast as tigers, but you're not going fast on the ice. [147:52] With a tiger, you can't outrun it. If you climb a tree, they climb better. [147:56] If you get in a car, they could smash the door. If a tiger decides it wants you, [148:00] pretty much nothing... Even if you had a gun, even if you had a nine millimeter, [148:04] it isn't going to stop a tiger that wants you. [148:08] - In the jungle, have you ever felt in danger? Putting humans aside, [148:12] were there animals...? [148:16] You've talked about how humans are really the source of danger. [148:19] ...how humans, they're the source of danger. [148:21] Is there... You often speak about animals as [148:26] a, you know, source of beauty and wonder— [148:29] ...and elegance and grace and all these things which they [148:32] are. But I'm sure you've felt danger. [148:38] - Yeah. I mean, I'm very aware that a hornet's nest can kill you. They'll kill you. [148:43] - Oh, so the little guys. [148:45] - The little guys suck. You know, the— [148:47] I always think like when we were going through the jungle— [148:49] ...one machete whack, and again, people don't realize how dense it is. You try to [148:53] run, you get hung up on vines, you trip, you fall onto one of those trees with the [148:57] black spikes. And then while you're laying there dealing with all that, they're just stinging [149:01] you and your body— [149:02] ...goes into anaphylactic shock and you die instantly. It's like you [149:05] just... That can very quickly just take you out. [149:08] - You're right. I mean, speaking of spikes, the biggest danger is not even the [149:12] spikes. The spikes just, 'cause it creates open wounds and then that can lead [149:16] slowly— [149:16] - Infection [149:16] - ...to infection. So it's really that—that is the biggest danger. [149:20] - Yeah. In the Amazon, I've never heard of a [149:24] human-directed violent jaguar in our region. They just don't attack [149:27] people. I'd say mosquitoes are the thing that come after you. [149:31] The snakes just want to be left alone. Even the venomous snakes. [149:35] Again, I grabbed an 11-foot bushmaster by the tail and he turned [149:39] around, he lifted up to about this high off the ground. And if you [149:43] could translate what he said, it was just, "Don't make me [149:47] do it." It just said, you know, "Make my day." [149:50] - See, but that's the thing. You speak snake language. [149:53] - And then I put the tail down. [149:54] - You speak snake. [149:54] - I went, "Okay." I was sufficiently scared. So the [149:58] problem happens when you don't know what you're doing. I'll give you— [150:01] ...an example. You want a dangerous animal story, I'll give you one. I was walking one [150:05] time and I was trying to be responsible. It always happens when I'm trying to be responsible— [150:08] ...I get into trouble. Trying to be safe, and you fall down. [150:13] I'm on the side of the stream and there's elephants on the other side of the... [150:16] I'm in India. There's a deep, like a 12-foot thing, and then a [150:20] stream and then on the other side there's elephants. And I'm walking and I'm like, "I'm gonna sit in a [150:23] tree and I'm gonna enjoy these elephants. I'm gonna make notes in my book like Jane [150:27] Goodall." Then I came up against a cement wall, and it was the back of a male [150:34] elephant. And in India, it's a male elephant that's been harassed and had [150:38] fire thrown at it and God knows what else. And he... And if I translate [150:42] what he said, he turned around and he just went, "What the fuck?" He just looked at me like, [150:46] how dare you? And then just... smacks apart the tree, turns around, and then [150:52] that elephant was trying to kill me. That was not a mock charge. [150:56] I threw off my backpack, zigzagged through the woods. He broke [151:00] apart trees. If I had a GoPro on my back to show you what I saw, [151:04] just the shrapnel and devastation of this thing just bashing through [151:08] trees. Every bush that I encounter is a possible trip. [151:12] Every vine is a possible hang-up. And if they get you, he'll step [151:16] on you and crush you. So I threw myself off the edge of [151:19] this cliff, rolled down into the stream, and the elephant got to the edge and [151:24] almost fell on me. He got to the edge and did one of these, [151:28] and then came back down on his hind feet. [151:31] Picked up a stick, threw it at me. And the stick just smacked [151:35] down next to me in the stream. I remember I gave him the finger because I was alive. [151:40] And then he just stormed off into the jungle. [151:42] - I mean, there's nothing like an elephant. [151:43] - There's nothing like an elephant anywhere. There's a... [151:45] I loved listening. I was so excited when I put on your podcast [151:49] with the dinosaur guy— [151:50] because he was like, "When a baby is born, it learns, you know, [151:54] elephant, giraffe, T-Rex." [151:58] And I was like, "Holy shit." Along with like banana, water, [152:02] sky is blue. Somehow these are initial things in your first few months on Earth— [152:07] these are the characters you're introduced to. How the hell did T-Rex get there? [152:11] They don't even exist anymore. [152:12] It was just such a fun... I could hear you smiling through the mic, [152:16] and I was like, "Oh, this is gonna be a good one." [152:19] - Yeah. I mean, the dinosaur world is incredible— [152:22] - It's wild. [152:22] - but the fact that you have such a predator evolve with such a gigantic jaw, [152:27] so much destructive power, is weird. [152:30] - And then he broke my heart because he was talking about how the T-Rex and [152:34] Stegosaurus... he's like, "All the books have them together," and then, [152:37] "They're nowhere near each other." [152:39] "They did not exist at the same time," and I was like... [152:42] - I want them to battle with each other. [152:44] - Yes. [152:46] - Speaking of elephants, I feel like we'll be up for an adventure at some point. [152:49] After all this chaos is over, you think back in the jungle? Africa? India? [152:58] - I think I would love to show you a herd of truly wild elephants [153:03] in the African jungle. I think that us [153:06] going on a boat trip through the Amazon, not a hiking one— [153:12] where we're going through areas where you can get permits to go through [153:16] where no one's allowed to go. They're completely protected areas, [153:19] and you can just go for a week through areas where the animals have no idea [153:23] what a human is. So you can move through it, and it'd be a little bit more of an [153:29] enjoyable experience, not a survival situation. And go with J.J. in a boat [153:32] and just travel through the Amazon. "Hey, maybe we protect this river." [153:36] And then the river's mapped from north to south, and we just raft down with [153:43] boat support, you know? [153:45] - It's really incredible to see how it's all connected. I mean, the river, [153:49] it's the thread that connects the whole story. And so it's nice [153:52] to see how it all is connected. And that's why us starting in the [153:56] mountains is also really nice to see, you know, where it begins. [153:59] But it keeps going. The story keeps going. [154:01] - It keeps going. We did start in the mountains. An epic first day together. [154:07] - And hopefully, people get a chance to see that video. [154:11] So I gotta ask you about the writing. I mentioned you're [154:15] an incredible writer. What's your writing process like for [154:19] this book, Jungle Keeper, for The Mother God, and for future books you're writing? [154:27] Are you like a Stephen King? Do you go to some dark places in the basement? [154:31] Do you write every single day? [154:36] Do you take little notes? Like, your notebook has a bunch of doodles [154:41] and a bunch of writing. Like, what's your process like? [154:44] - I try to journal every day for a number of reasons. [154:48] It's accountability. It helps me keep track... It's fun to see your hopes and dreams. [154:52] It's fun to record the mundane moments that we all forget about, [154:56] and that might be, like, cooking in the kitchen with your mother. [154:59] That might be a fun walk you had with your dog. Like, little things that you [155:03] think you're going to remember, but you just don't. And so I have piles of notebooks. [155:07] I have just piles and piles of notebooks in my room. [155:12] And when something happens, I write it down. If a cool story happens, I will write it down, [155:19] story happens, I will write it down, or if I find a [155:23] leaf from an extinct tree I will make an etching [155:27] Anything that happens that I find remarkable in any way, [155:33] either for my own personal memory or for writing, [155:37] I'll write it down. And then when I go [155:41] back to it later, A, I have a very good memory, and B, the facts are [155:45] there. And so when something happens like you rescue a spider monkey [155:48] or something happens that's remarkable in [155:52] life—you get to spend time with someone that you haven't in a [155:56] long time and you get that feeling of like, "Oh, that's why I'm such good friends with them." [156:00] You write these things down, and then it's always [156:03] there. And so I feel like whenever I don't journal that I'm missing out [156:07] on keeping my life and my memories. [156:11] So yeah. I don't do the... That Stephen King quote about how [156:16] "Amateurs wait for inspiration, and the professionals, we go to work every [156:20] day." And he's like, "Ten pages a day," or whatever it is. I don't do that. [156:26] I write when I feel like it. And I like [156:29] to... You know, I'll start thinking, "Oh, this is a perfect way [156:33] to start this scene," because the moment this happened, I [156:37] felt so intensely. And if we bring people in and out, I'll just be in a car [156:41] or boat or something, and I'll just start thinking about it and I'll go, "This is..." [156:45] Just the thing is, you gotta carpe diem. [156:46] Then I'll go, "Okay, where did that happen again?" And I'll go to that page. And I'll go, [156:50] "Okay, so what exactly happened?" Then you get the laptop, and yeah. [156:54] So it's brain to paper to laptop, always paper in between. [156:57] - Well, how do you go from disparate notes to the final [157:00] thing? Because it's difficult to convey the experience through words, [157:07] and you do that well. So is this like... Do you edit a lot? Do you iterate? [157:14] - That's where Stephen King was right. Because I look at writing like [157:17] sculpting. You- you have to have something to [157:21] sculpt. And so when you're thinking of a [157:24] story... Again, a lot of... I mean, I love listening to [157:27] great storytellers. And I actually love listening to bad stories, just like I like watching bad movies to [157:31] see what they did wrong. When you listen to someone that starts a story and they have you [157:35] hooked from the second they start, and then you're like, "Wait, but how did that happen? [157:39] And why was that happening? What happened next?" And they keep you going and they drop the [157:43] information perfectly. And so every now and then, you figure that out in that [157:47] moment of inspiration. So then I have my facts written down here. [157:51] And then I'll do an outline on a page or something. But then I have to get [157:55] it all out of me with a pen. Then I can move to... I'll almost close my eyes. [158:01] I'll almost just close my eyes and write the story out. I just need to... You're making [158:05] the... You're literally making your clay, and so it's like you make the [158:09] shape of the thing before you... And then editing is giving it details. [158:14] - So you do take passes like— [158:16] - Oh, my God, yes. I mean, dozens. That's where writing sucks. [158:22] When you're finishing a book—and I'll never do that again. So what I'm doing now [158:25] is... this last book, there's so much that it covered. [158:30] And I was in the jungle, and it'd be like hiking for ten hours a day, you know, [158:34] dealing with narcotraffickers, and then I'd have to edit at night. [158:37] It was like, "This is no way to live." So now what I'm doing is [158:42] I'm writing chapters as I feel like writing chapters. When something [158:46] something remarkable happens, I go, "This is going to be its own chapter." [158:50] I write it, edit it, and then I send it to my sister who's an [158:54] expert editor and has lived more in literature than [158:58] most people live in real life. She'll let me know if it's good or bad, [159:02] if it needs to be tweaked. When I get it back from her, it's marked up. [159:05] And now what I'm going to do is I'm just going to put those [159:08] aside. And then, the next time I want to write a book, it's not [159:12] starting from scratch on 300,000 words; it's just here, and it's ready. [159:19] Much easier. [159:20] - What kind of books do you think you might write in the future? [159:23] - Well, there's Mother of God, and now Jungle Keeper. And then I'm [159:27] already working on Endgame. Because there is so much that has happened. I [159:32] think I told you when you were there, but right before you [159:36] came, me and JJ went to the back end, behind our river— [159:40] to this horrible part of the Amazon that's 10 times more [159:43] lawless than where we are. Instead of no people, there are people. [159:48] If you want to talk about Amazonian No Country for Old Men, it's the oil [159:52] companies, the missionaries, and the newly contacted tribes. [159:56] There's a people called the Nahua, and they were recently [159:59] contacted and ripped out of the forest. They're standing there [160:03] with their little bows and arrows. They're tiny people. The— [160:07] the normales are tall. The Nahua are small. And we just saw [160:11] brutality in this horrific... It's like Sicario. It's just [160:17] absolute lawlessness. I remember the moment JJ looked at me and said, [160:22] and we both think of ourselves as tough, I think, until we get in [160:26] these situations. And he looked at me and went, "We're not safe." [160:30] And we looked at the people around us at this side of the river [160:33] port, eight days up, and you could tell everyone looking at [160:36] us was making a calculation about how inconvenient it [160:40] would be to kill us. They were like: camera, watch, clothing, backpack. [160:49] They were like, "That's a nice backpack." You could tell they [160:52] were just shopping. And JJ and me were like, "We're [160:56] gonna..." "Where are we putting the tent tonight?" "We're not [160:59] staying here." Then I was like, "Well, maybe we should stay." [161:03] And then one of the little Nahua people came over to JJ asking for [161:07] food, and he made the mistake of explaining money. They'd never [161:11] had money before. He gave them a couple coins and said, "If you [161:15] go over there, that man will sell you something and you can eat." [161:19] The guy was like, "Bow and arrow?" JJ said, "No, give him this and [161:22] he'll give you food," and it worked. Then JJ got swarmed by [161:27] 60 of these little tribals with bows and arrows, hands out. JJ was [161:31] running with all these half-naked people behind him. That— [161:35] that whole saga right there is like... That chapter's [161:39] gonna be called "River of the Dolphin Fuckers" [161:42] 'cause everyone we met on the river kept telling us, [161:45] I'd have my camera with me and I'd go, [161:49] "Are there dolphins here?" And they'd go, "Yeah, there's dolphins. [161:53] And if you fuck one, be careful 'cause they'll pull you under." [161:57] I went, "Okay, weirdo," to the first guy. [161:59] And then we got to like eight hours further upriver, met the next guy and I had my camera out, [162:03] and I'm like, "Hey, are there any dolphins here?" And he goes, "Yeah. If you fuck any, be careful." [162:07] He's like, "'Cause they'll grab on and pull you under." And I was like, [162:09] "What?" And then four more people told me the same thing. So I was like, "Okay." [162:14] - The lesson we learned in the jungle: horned anacondas, believe 'em. [162:18] - Believe 'em. On that river, they were all trying to be good Samaritans and [162:22] warn me about the clear and present dangers involved with amorous dolphin [162:27] encounters. [162:28] - So stylistically, I mean, that is a bit Cormac McCarthy. [162:32] - Ooh, he would've loved it. [162:33] - There are writers you draw inspiration from like that. I mean, you're very close to him— [162:40] - It's too big of a compliment. [162:40] - You plug in every once in a while. You jump around stylistically, actually. [162:45] - I do. It depends, because sometimes I want to sink in and [162:49] flex a little bit, which I don't think people really enjoy, but I enjoy it. [162:53] You know, talk about the... Just use all those flowery words— [162:57] and make these beautiful metaphors. But what I'm finding more and more is [163:01] that modern readers aren't really looking for that. They want an easy read. [163:08] And for my style of storytelling, people really tend to [163:12] thank me for more of an Anthony Bourdain style, [163:16] where you're like, "So we found ourselves on the side of this river and we knew we [163:20] were in danger. The reason we were in danger..." And you just start telling the story. [163:24] Forget the... Maybe once every two pages you can throw in one of those beautiful [163:28] little zingers, but nobody wants to watch you flex. [163:30] - But also sometimes you go even more than... I don't think Anthony Bourdain did [163:35] like Hemingway-like minimal, like— word, period— word, like that. [163:41] That's another way to flex that I really like that you do sometimes is just— [163:45] less, and just power in the spacing, [163:49] the silences. The unsaid is what does the driving. [163:53] - I mean, that's what's so arresting. You read like For Whom the Bell [163:56] Tolls. And, you know, "The air was crisp, and the water was [164:00] sweet, and the wine was good, and the afternoon was warm." [164:04] And you're like, "I know what that's like." These are not complicated sentences, [164:08] but when he puts them together into a paragraph, you go, "Oh, yeah. I want [164:12] to drink wine out of leather and lay by the side of that stream." [164:15] It sounds so beautiful. And so sometimes, you know, I mean, just look at that. [164:21] Look at that fire cracking on the horizon there. [164:23] Sometimes the only way is just these simple statements. [164:27] - Writing's beautiful. I love writing, I love reading it. Have you interacted with [164:31] LLMs much? You know, AI systems? ChatGPT? There's a bit of a scary and a sad [164:39] aspect to the fact that they can generate language extremely well. [164:45] But something is missing, and it's very hard to put your finger on it. [164:50] - My question to you is: I can pick out with stunning accuracy [164:57] when someone sends me a message and they've passed it through ChatGPT— [165:02] I know. Somehow I could tell, and I don't know how, [165:06] but I could tell. It's one of those things like with the images, [165:10] where we're at the point where we can't tell anymore, almost. [165:13] I don't know if that's going to go away, or if, like you said, there's something... [165:17] Like, one of the things that F. Scott Fitzgerald does so much [165:22] is he describes these incredibly human moments with such crystalline accuracy [165:29] that you go, "It must have taken you a month. You [165:33] must have studied life so much to be able to [165:37] string those words together." I think in a book he writes [165:41] about someone screaming with such abandonment that at the highest register, [165:45] her voice wobbled and cracked. And you're like, "Oh my God, I know that sound." [165:48] And I wonder if... because you can say, for example, [165:56] "Write me The Jungle Book, but make it sound like Cormac McCarthy wrote it." [166:00] And it'll be like, "The jungle was dark and stern, and the boy was..." You know? [166:04] It'll do it, and it's amazing. But my question to you is, [166:08] what are we picking up on in something as simple as a text message? [166:12] - It is very difficult to define. But it's important to keep thinking about, [166:17] because: what makes us human? [166:19] - You reassured me recently because I called you and I said, [166:23] of the jungle and all anybody wants to talk about is AI." [166:27] It's like people are walking themselves into the Matrix and asking to [166:31] be hooked. You know, everyone's just obsessed with this topic. [166:34] And you were like, "Man, human art and human [166:40] literature is going to actually become so valuable as this other thing happens." [166:44] other thing happens." And I expected the opposite answer. I thought you were [166:48] gonna be like, "Yeah, man, this really is. Everything's gonna change." And you were like, [166:51] "Man, like, real artists are going to become more appreciated." [166:57] - As more and more compelling and effective bots appear on the internet— [167:02] ... we're going to value that less and less, I think. [167:04] And we're going to value human interaction more and more. [167:07] So, you know, artists showing art at galleries versus on the internet— [167:13] ... meeting in person. And, actually, it's going to [167:17] force people to be more authentic and real and raw with each other. That's [167:21] going to be the valuable resource. [167:25] - I mean, I think already, AI aside, I think that in today's [167:29] world, everyone's so... I mean, movies have become so [167:32] polished. Like, there's no weird quirky stuff. There's no risky stuff anymore. [167:36] It's all very, very curated. I've almost stopped watching movies. [167:41] And I used to love movies. But it's fun [167:45] when they take risks, when they're messy, when they're real. [167:49] - I think Hollywood, the Hollywood stars, the Hollywood movie-making process [167:54] has become less and less popular because of that. So I can't [167:58] wait for movies to be reinvented- [168:00] - Oh, I can't wait. [168:00] - ... for independent film. Just raw, edgy, dangerous, all that kind of stuff. [168:03] - And all the actors we like are in TV shows on various streaming platforms. [168:07] It's like they've all just gone home. [168:09] Like, they're not there. I was literally like, "Man, I miss movies. [168:13] What happened to movies? I'm re-watching all the old movies that I like." [168:17] And I was like, "Where is everybody?" [168:21] What are they doing? It's like they all have a TV [168:24] series on Hulu or something, you know? It's like, "Fuck." [168:28] - Yeah. I think it'll come. The raw, the dangerous, the edgy. [168:32] - What we just described is almost perfect... There's a scene in Dead Poets Society where Robin [168:36] Williams makes them open their books. And the first page of the poetry book [168:40] is like, "How do you identify a good poem?" He's like, "A good poem can be..." And he makes [168:44] a graph. And he's like, "By the subject of the poem, and then the accuracy with which [168:48] it is described, you can tell whether or not it's a good poem." The whole [168:52] class is sitting there bored. And he's like, "Now rip that page out of your [168:55] book." And they rip the page out. And then he's like, "Now stand up." And he's like, [168:59] "Now describe something." And he makes them bleat it and scream it. And [169:02] it's almost exactly what we're describing. It's like, yeah, you can turn it into a [169:06] graph if you need to, but it's something way messier than that. [169:10] - Yeah. And Robin Williams, the person— ... is a perfect example of a complicated, [169:17] beautiful human. I miss him. And whenever I see clips of him come up, it's just- [169:24] I still to this day can't make sense that a person like that can [169:30] take their own life. Somebody who's brought so much joy to the world. [169:37] It scares me, man. It scares me. I'm scared of my own mind [169:41] in that way, you know? That he could be at the top of the world... [169:47] - But he had an illness. [169:51] - Yeah, that's what I understand. Dude, life is a rollercoaster. [169:57] - I'm telling you. [169:57] - And you're living through it. [169:58] - As scary as that is... Since you mentioned Robin Williams, I'll give you [170:02] this. My very close friend Gleb, he has a story. [170:06] He was in New York City as a kid and he saw Robin Williams walking down the [170:10] street. And he went up to him and went, "Oh my God, it's Robin [170:14] Williams." And Robin was like, "Yeah." And he goes, "Can I have an autograph?" He goes, "Do you have any [170:17] paper?" And my friend was like, "No, I'm eleven." And [170:21] Robin Williams was like, "Go get some paper." [170:25] His manager was with him and he was like, "Robin, we don't have time. We gotta get up there." [170:29] And he was like, "Hold on. I told the kid I'd give him a thing. [170:32] He'll be back." And my friend heard this as he's thinking, "Just please stay," [170:36] his whole life depended on this thing. [170:39] And he ran into a diner, grabbed a napkin, ran back [170:43] out into the street. It took him a few minutes, and Robin Williams was still sitting there. [170:47] This irate manager was there, being like, "Come on, let's go." [170:51] Robin had waited there and [170:53] signed the napkin for him, and actually did it with a smile and a wink, you know. [171:00] - Yeah, man. You can bring a lot of joy to the world. Never forget [171:03] that. All those little interactions. I love it. I love it. [171:07] - That was another one of Jane Goodall's amazing quotes that I couldn't [171:11] reproduce, but it's that you don't realize the degree to which [171:15] the things you do each day matter- [171:18] ...even if it's just to the people around you. And it's like you [171:21] are, to the people around you, their entire life experience- [171:26] ...if they're your kids, your parents, your partner. So yeah, the things you do. [171:31] And if you can manage to put that extra energy where you [171:35] put a little magic on it, where it is fun. You show up home with something, you [171:39] know, play with the kids in a way that surprises them. I had a good friend of [171:43] mine, Vinnie. I called him and said, "What are you doing?" He [171:47] said, "Oh, I have a whole plan set up. It's supposed to be really good [171:51] stars tonight. I'm putting my daughter to bed." [171:55] He goes, "I'm gonna wake her up in the middle of the night. I'm gonna have a candle." [171:59] "I'm gonna take her up to the roof to go stargazing." He's like, "But I [172:03] want her to sleep. Remember when you were a kid and you would wake up?" [172:07] He was curating a magical experience for her to see the [172:11] stars, and like, making warm tea and all this. Like, [172:15] man, you can just make it so great. [172:18] - Jane Goodall's the reason you met this guy. [172:20] - That's right. [172:21] - You've continuously spoken really highly of him, and he [172:25] gave me this book that he has recently written, Echoes from Eden. Signed it. [172:31] - Yeah. Dax, A, saved my life, and B, is the example [172:35] of what everybody wishes. Dax made an amazing [172:38] company, amassed an amazing fortune, and then said, "I'm gonna use it for good." [172:43] - He's given a lot of resources, a lot of [172:46] love, a lot of effort to helping the Amazon rain [172:50] forest and the environment in general. [172:53] He's one of the only guys I know who has a sexier beard than you. [172:58] - Yeah, he's got me beat big time. [173:01] - He wrote, "Thank you, brother, for your love of the wild. This book is about [173:05] the heroes fighting on the front line for nature. Together we can [173:08] protect Earth's last wild places. Speak soon, Dax." [173:14] - He supported all these initiatives. He went to the Amazon [173:18] with Jane. He supported Junglekeepers and Sea Shepherd. And so [173:22] he really went out and said, "Okay, what are the environmental projects that are doing the [173:26] most good? And where do I want to put my resources?" It's like everyone always [173:30] whines about that. "How come these guys don't..." And it's like he [173:33] did, and he got a lot done. Then he went and visited all [173:37] those projects: sea turtles and Indonesian [173:41] orangutans and working with Jane. And so then that [173:45] book is sort of a state of the union on where conservation is at. [173:49] There's a lot of knowledge about how the different strategies... It's so different [173:53] protecting sea turtle eggs versus trying to save a river in the Amazon [173:56] versus Jane's global message of hope. [174:00] And then he has a guy in there who's trying to save a specific part [174:04] of Sumatra, and it's just amazing stuff. [174:07] - The Congo. [174:08] - The Congo. And then he actually took the time to go to these places and [174:12] see the operations on the ground. [174:14] - And are you still working with him? [174:16] - Yeah. Well, that's sort of the... The way it [174:22] happened in my life was, the one time I [174:25] quit conservation was right around the time COVID hit. I was going through [174:29] a divorce, I'm 32 years old, and I had no job, no nothing. JJ's mom had COVID. Don [174:40] Ignacio the shaman had COVID. Pico's leg was coming off. Nothing was [174:43] working. Nobody could go anywhere. And I called Mohsin and I [174:47] was like, "I quit." I was like, "We're never going back to [174:51] the jungle." The loggers just went out and were tearing down everything. [174:55] I just said, "I got nothing." And in the absolute [174:59] black depression, I called him and I said, "I quit. I'm gonna go get a [175:02] job. I guess I'm just..." You know, "I guess I've been like [175:07] jungle Peter Pan and it's time to grow [175:09] up." And I was really embarrassed at the time that I did [175:13] that. And then I spent like four days just [175:17] laying in bed, with no idea what to do. The only thing I can do is [175:21] this. And I had talked to Dax months earlier, [175:25] told him my plan for protecting the river, for making a ranger team, and he'd been looking [175:29] over the budgets and spreadsheets and seeing if this was real. [175:32] He was still forming Age of Union. And then [175:35] four days after I quit, the phone rings and it's Dax. And he goes, [175:39] "Hey, I looked over the budget. I'd like to make a 10-year commitment [175:43] to Jungle Keepers. Let's go." He had no idea what I was going through, [175:47] and he was just like, "Let's go." I was like, [175:51] going from that depressed to that inspired in a single [175:55] conversation... You could get the bends from that. [175:57] - Yeah, and it's not just the money- ... it's that somebody believes in you. [176:01] - No, it's that he believes in us, that we can... Money, you [176:04] know, that money means tuna cans and gasoline and being [176:08] able to buy shoes, you know? We never [176:12] had those things before. We were just living in the jungle watching our bodies [176:16] decay. And he was like, "No, I know how to run a company, and I can tell [176:20] what you guys need to run an organization." And he [176:24] did that and then has stuck by us. And [176:26] he came not that long ago to the Amazon, and we... [176:31] And we took him around, and he just looked around and went, [176:34] "I've never seen people..." Because he said, "You guys remind me of a startup." [176:38] He said, "You're a mess." And that was right before Stephan had come [176:43] And so now, he's seeing ranger teams and boats going up and down. And we have [176:46] complex systems and a donor program, and all these things are working well. [176:50] We're making progress and we have annual reports and all this data. And he's like, [176:54] "Yo, you know, people have donor fatigue, where they [176:58] donate money and don't know where it's going." And he goes, "Here, [177:02] they can see what's happening." So having someone like [177:06] Dax in your corner is a miracle, really. In the book, it's gonna sound... A lot of [177:13] the things that happened to me in my life sound like bad writing. You know in movies, [177:17] they have a gun to their head, and you go, "They're not getting out of this one." And then [177:21] someone bursts through the door and saves them. That's just happened too many times to [177:24] me. It sounds like bad writing, but it's a really good life. [177:31] - Since you mentioned Stephan one more time- ... one of my happiest [177:36] moments in life, and I had many in the jungle with you, is just [177:43] talking late at night after ayahuasca, funny enough- [177:47] ... chatting with Stephan and Dan and you, giggling and talking about [177:51] life and everything. And Dan is a guy I have to give a shout-out to. You should [177:55] follow him on Instagram, Life with Dan. He's an incredible wildlife photographer. [178:00] I've seen him; he's worked quite a lot with you. [178:05] He has a love of nature, a love of the wilderness, a love [178:09] of beauty, and is extremely good at taking pictures, but just goes to the [178:16] edges with you. He's the only guy I've seen [178:20] with the two giant cameras able to follow you into the darkness. [178:24] - Well, Dan... First of all, that picture I showed you where I'm in the [178:28] tree, because I told you the story about with JJ where I climbed the giant [178:31] tree. Well, this is years later, I climbed it with Dan. Dan was [178:35] there, and so he flew the drone up and got me in the tree. [178:38] But what Dan's a really good example of is, like you were saying, what would you say [178:42] to the kids? It's like Dan listened to our talk, our first podcast, was living in [178:49] Singapore, and he's like a young filmmaker. [178:53] Again, just get out there. He signed himself up [178:57] to come on a Tamandua Expedition with my company, and he showed up on the thing. And [179:01] sure enough, their boat broke down, and I was off doing Junglekeepers [179:05] stuff, and someone was like, "Yo, their boat broke down." So we show up and I [179:09] haul their boat and he comes up and says, "I'm such a big fan. I just wanted to say hi." [179:13] I said, "Well, great. Hello." I said, "Well, let's get you back on the [179:16] river." And then, you know, someone came up to me and [179:20] said, "He's a really good photographer." I said, "Everybody's a good photographer today." [179:24] I said, "That's great. Amazing. We have Stefan and Mohsin. What else do we need?" [179:29] And then someone I trust was like, "Hey, listen, look at his stuff. [179:33] It's not normal." And then I watched a few of his videos and I went, [179:37] "Holy shit." And I went, "Would you ever think [179:40] of coming down for a few weeks to film?" And at the time, he was like, "No [179:45] way." He was so amazed. And now we're [179:48] bros. And we film together all the time. But he put himself [179:52] in the position where he has the skill, the insane skill. [179:56] I mean, some of his things— he's doing tracking shots of a [180:00] white-winged sparrow over the water where he's in the boat with an [180:04] 800 millimeter lens, getting these insane shots. I've [180:09] never seen a talent like him with video. [180:12] - But wildlife photography and documentary filmmaking in general, it's not just [180:16] about the competence of being able to pull off a difficult shot. [180:20] It's like the patience required [180:23] and the discipline to just sit there and wait. I mean, when we [180:28] went out into the jungle, he waited. [180:32] - Yeah. I mean, even looking on this page, that shot of the- [180:35] of the emerald tree boa there; he got up before dawn to wait for the [180:39] sideways light. He had a vision of lighting the snake from the [180:43] side. And then the macaws coming off the clay lick. How many [180:47] days at the clay lick till he got the explosion of macaws? [180:50] And I'm up in the tree and he's on the walkie-talkie. And then also [180:54] your lenses are going to fog. You have to be able to hike and do everything [180:58] everybody else is doing, and your job. I mean, the dude is... [181:04] - You attract a lot of incredible people because the mission is [181:07] clear and there's just like... [181:10] There's a vibrancy and energy to the whole thing. It's exciting. [181:14] That's why the best people come to work with you, come to hang out with you. [181:17] - It's become an amazing team. I look around at the people [181:21] and I go, "How did this happen?" [181:24] - But it is getting more intense and dangerous. I have to ask [181:28] you the thing we've talked about. What do you think you'll do when you're [181:32] getting older? This is pretty intense. Where do you see yourself years from now? [181:39] - I want to protect this river. We have to protect this river in the next year and [181:43] a half or else we'll lose the chance. [181:46] Either I'm going to have... First book, I got to the Amazon and it was wild. Second [181:50] book, we went, we built this amazing organization and we got so close. [181:53] It'll be like those movies, like Blow, where it's like, "For a [181:56] time it was amazing," and then at the end... it's not so great. [182:00] - By the way, great movie. [182:01] - Great movie. But, you know, I'm writing [182:05] this story as it happens and, you know, the endgame might be [182:10] written by somebody else. Or we just got really close and then it [182:13] all fell apart. But we're 130,000 acres of the way. If we make it to [182:20] 300,000, I'm calling it now, [182:23] I think enough people are going to learn about this. It's going to tidal wave. [182:27] We're going to make an amazing documentary about how we protected the wildest place [182:31] on Earth. And then I would love to have a few kids, get a PhD, and teach [182:38] conservationists around the world how to do this to save really wild [182:42] places, keep inspiring people, keep writing books, keep going on [182:46] expeditions. I don't have any problems with that. I can tell you, I [182:50] can't do this much longer because the pressure of [182:55] wondering if it's going to be okay, I've used all of it that I can. [182:59] My Lord of the Rings analogy of carrying the ring; you can only do that for so [183:03] long. And so I'm actually very excited to... I need to [183:07] know that it's safe. I mean, that monkey that [183:11] I rescued out of the river, or the toucan, Lucas, who [183:15] comes back to visit us. We just saw a giant anteater not [183:19] that long ago with Dax in the jungle. I know [183:23] these animals and I'm responsible for protecting their home. It would be so [183:26] amazing to bring people to the treehouse and show them this amazing place [183:30] and put out documentaries. I have no problem [183:34] imagining a transition period. I'd like to transition out [183:38] of Blood Diamond and go to more the sort of professor role after this. [183:45] - You mean like an Indiana Jones type of professor? [183:48] - Yeah. Running from the tribes. [183:52] ...as long as it doesn't go supernatural at the end, I'll be very happy. That always [183:57] kind of let me down. [183:58] - Well, thank you for giving [184:02] basically everything you got towards this mission that you're doing. And [184:08] thank you for being who you are. It's been an honor of a lifetime to be able to call [184:12] you a friend and to have this conversation, brother. [184:17] This is the third time we've spoken. I think we'll talk at least 10 more times, [184:21] and I think I speak for everybody in saying thank you and please [184:25] don't die in trying to save the rainforest. [184:30] - I have to say thank you to you because our first conversation [184:37] changed everything. It really did. In this story, it [184:41] brought so many more people onto the mission. And [184:45] I think also lifted me up because, as we [184:49] often acknowledge, this can weigh you down. And I often do get [184:53] weighed down and I lose hope myself. And then I get lifted up by [184:57] moments like that where someone I'm a huge fan of and who I [185:00] respect so much reaches out and goes, "Do you wanna come to Austin and do this podcast?" [185:04] And I respond, "The Lex fucking Fridman podcast?" But, you know, you've [185:12] really changed the narrative and allowed this to be a reality, so. [185:18] - And everybody, go pre-order [185:22] The Jungle Keeper, the book, available everywhere. And if you can, donate on [185:27] junglekeepers.org. This is an important mission, [185:31] an ultra-competent team, and this is such a beautiful part of the [185:35] world that I really, really, really hope we [185:39] protect. So thank you for talking today, and now let's go eat. [185:45] - Thank you, brother. [185:47] - Thanks for listening to this conversation with Paul Rosolie. To support this podcast, please check out our [185:51] sponsors in the description, or you can also find links to contact [185:54] me, ask questions, give feedback, and so on. And once more, let me say thank you for [186:01] everything. Thank you for your support. Thank you for the love. And thank you for [186:05] listening. And I hope to see you next time.