Mark Cuban warns that heavy corporate borrowing to finance massive AI infrastructure without matching near-term operational revenue risks sparking a severe debt bubble, especially with US national interest payments already at approximately $1 trillion annually. (0:00)
Rather than true cognitive intelligence, Cuban describes large language models as brute-force statistical next-word predictors that require human discernment to prompt, verify, and apply effectively. (33:04)
Cost Plus Drugs is expanding by directly bypassing pharmacy benefit managers to pitch self-insured employers, who cover approximately 67% of employer-insured Americans. (86:54)
Cuban sold his majority stake in the Dallas Mavericks for $4.3 billion and stepped down from Shark Tank to regain autonomy over his personal time and prioritize his family. (13:32)
Detailed notes
## Background
This interview was published on October 26, 2026, on YouTube by Steven Bartlett on his channel *The Diary Of A CEO*. According to the episode description, billionaire entrepreneur and investor Mark Cuban discusses the realities of building businesses, why artificial intelligence lacks true cognition, how to master sales, the culture required to turn around organizations, and his current mission to disrupt American healthcare with Cost Plus Drugs.
## TL;DR
Mark Cuban breaks down his foundational business philosophy, explaining why mastering frontline sales, out-learning competitors, and developing delayed gratification are far more reliable than chasing quick money or startup hype. He critically assesses the current artificial intelligence boom, characterizing large language models as brute-force pattern matchers that risk inflating a dangerous capital expenditure and debt bubble rather than demonstrating biological cognition. Reflecting on his life, Cuban recounts transforming the Dallas Mavericks into NBA champions, surviving extreme fame, and supporting his family through personal crises. Ultimately, he explains his decision to step away from majority sports ownership and *Shark Tank* to prioritize his children and channel his resources toward reforming prescription pricing via Cost Plus Drugs.
## Atmosphere & style
The conversation carries an energetic, plain-spoken, and grounded tone, marked by Cuban's characteristic blue-collar candor and disdain for corporate pretension. Bartlett acts as an inquisitive, attentive listener, allowing Cuban to steer through pragmatic operational lessons, blunt tech skepticism, and moments of genuine vulnerability regarding his family and aging. It feels intimate yet intense, balancing rapid-fire entrepreneurial war stories with reflective stillness when discussing brotherhood, mortality, and the true meaning of personal autonomy.
## Bulletin
- [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=0s) Mark Cuban warns that heavy corporate borrowing to finance massive AI infrastructure without matching near-term operational revenue risks sparking a severe debt bubble, especially with US national interest payments already at approximately $1 trillion annually.
- [33:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=1984s) Rather than true cognitive intelligence, Cuban describes large language models as brute-force statistical next-word predictors that require human discernment to prompt, verify, and apply effectively.
- [01:26:54](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=5214s) Cost Plus Drugs is expanding by directly bypassing pharmacy benefit managers to pitch self-insured employers, who cover approximately 67% of employer-insured Americans.
- [13:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=812s) Cuban sold his majority stake in the Dallas Mavericks for $4.3 billion and stepped down from Shark Tank to regain autonomy over his personal time and prioritize his family.
## Key takeaways
- [51:29](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=3089s) Hyperscaler tech borrowing to power AI data centers competes with ballooning federal deficit spending, creating a systemic risk of an AI capital expenditure debt bubble.
- [44:39](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=2679s) Frontier AI models operate via brute-force computational token prediction rather than genuine cognitive reasoning, common sense, or physical-world grounding.
- [39:56](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=2396s) Autonomous software agents are replacing entry-level repetitive administrative tasks, shifting the competitive edge toward humans who know how to ask superior questions.
- [06:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=372s) Mastering sales provides lifetime career security because learning to navigate rejection and solve buyer problems is essential to every business.
- [11:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=670s) Aspiring entrepreneurs should focus on mastering a single specialized skill rather than chasing speculative passions or get-rich-quick social media schemes.
- [58:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=3520s) True wealth represents autonomy over one's own schedule rather than material luxury, symbolized by Cuban's decision to stop wearing a watch upon selling MicroSolutions.
- [31:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=1872s) Public equity and crypto markets increasingly trade like speculative collectibles based on sentiment rather than fundamental discounted cash flows.
- [01:17:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=4660s) Transforming the Dallas Mavericks into NBA champions relied on treating players better than any competitor, using custom travel, personal coaching, and early adoption of sports analytics.
- [01:16:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=4562s) Cuban counters his self-admitted hiring and operational weaknesses by teaming with detail-oriented co-founders and adopting a 'hire slow, fire fast' operational rule.
- [01:03:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=3797s) Leadership effectiveness improves through kindness and emotional self-regulation, whereas yelling and hostility in commercial negotiations produce inferior outcomes.
- [56:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=3376s) Experiential and face-to-face gatherings will appreciate in value as digital workflows and desk tasks become increasingly automated by AI.
- [01:26:54](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=5214s) Cost Plus Drugs aims to dismantle structural healthcare markups by selling generic medications at manufacturing cost plus a transparent 15% markup.
The conversation begins with an urgent warning from Mark Cuban about the economic realities behind artificial intelligence. While the tech industry is racing forward, Cuban notes that the underlying mathematics do not equal actual comprehension or moral restraint. He emphasizes that the massive capital expenditures required to fuel generative systems are setting up a precarious scenario: “Those companies keep on borrowing and spending more money in order to power all the AI, but they're borrowing more than they're making. We literally could get into a debt bubble.” When host Steven Bartlett asks if he believes the tech ecosystem is genuinely inside an AI bubble, Cuban answers directly in the affirmative.
The preview also touches on Cuban's foundational philosophies across his ventures, including his run on *Shark Tank* and his ownership of the Dallas Mavericks. He frames business as an ongoing, relentless athletic contest. To succeed, an entrepreneur cannot afford to be complacent; they must recognize their own limitations and out-prepare everyone else. Cuban candidly confesses that early in his managerial career, he held toxic habits, stating, “One of the biggest mistakes I made was I was a jerk. I would yell. I would scream, and I found that I got a lot further by being nice than by being a dick.” The clip wraps with Bartlett showing Cuban personal family photographs, including one of his middle brother Brian holding an emotional handwritten letter, teasing a deep dive into the human price of wealth and public fame.
Before starting the full discussion, Bartlett asks viewers to subscribe, pointing out an unexpected channel statistic: roughly 58% of regular viewers are not subscribed. He explains that subscriptions cost nothing for the audience but directly enable higher production quality and prominent guests. Transitioning into the interview, Bartlett observes that regardless of how wealthy or accomplished Cuban becomes, he continually returns to the posture of a beginner whenever disruptive technologies arise—from blockchain and cryptocurrency to generative models. Cuban asserts that staying curious is an existential necessity in modern markets: “And if you're going to do anything with technology, media, whatever it may be, you better be ahead of the curve, otherwise there's going to be some kid in high school somewhere going to kick your ass. And I want to be the one doing the ass kicking instead of getting their ass kicked.”
[03:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=183s) Blue-Collar Pittsburgh Roots and the Lessons of Norton Cuban
Bartlett turns to Cuban's childhood, asking about the early environment that forged his aggressive work ethic. Cuban describes an ordinary, working-class home in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, living on Meadowlark Lane. His mother had him at age twenty and worked odd jobs, while his father, Norton Cuban, worked long, brutal days doing automotive upholstery. Norton was up and out of the door before the children woke for school and suffered serious physical injuries on the job, including losing an eye to a broken upholstery staple when Mark was in the sixth grade.
Despite never earning more than $40,000 a year, his father possessed an infectious charisma. He had friends everywhere he traveled and quickly befriended total strangers, setting a powerful example of social warmth and personal resilience for Mark and his brothers. Norton supported all of young Mark's entrepreneurial endeavors unconditionally and offered straightforward, memorable perspectives on time and adaptability. As Cuban remembers of his father's mindset: “You know, he would say things that like you don't live in the world you were born into. You know, today's the youngest you'll ever be.”
- **Father's trade**: Automotive upholstery worker; lost an eye in a workplace stapling accident when Cuban was in the sixth grade.
- **Peak lifetime salary**: Under $40,000 annually.
- **Family location**: Meadowlark Lane, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.
[04:34](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=274s) First Hustles: Baseball Cards and Selling Trash Bags at Age 12
Asked what he envisioned becoming as a boy, Cuban laughs that he initially dreamed of being a professional baseball player. Though he possessed raw athletic ability, he recognized early on that he was not talented enough for professional sports. Instead, his entrepreneurial instincts surfaced before he reached adolescence. At age nine or ten, Cuban would take his weekly allowance to the local corner pharmacy, purchase retail packs of baseball cards, repackage them in comic strips, and mark them up from twenty-five cents to fifty cents. He would guarantee that buyers would pull star Pittsburgh Pirates players like Roberto Clemente or Willie Stargell, reinvesting the proceeds into larger card batches.
```mermaid
flowchart LR
accTitle: Cuban Early Hustle Progression
accDescr: The early childhood sales pipeline Mark Cuban developed from card repackaging to neighborhood trash bag sales.
subgraph Phase1["Card Hustle (Ages 9-10)"]
A["Buy card packs at local pharmacy"] --> B["Repackage cards in funny papers"]
B --> C["Guarantee Pirates stars (Clemente/Stargell)"]
C --> D["Sell for 100% markup (25¢ to 50¢)"]
end
subgraph Phase2["Direct Sales (Age 12)"]
E["Father refuses to buy sneakers"] --> F["Buys garbage bags for $3 a box"]
F --> G["Knocks door-to-door in Pittsburgh"]
G --> H["Pitches convenience at $6 a box"]
end
D --> E
```
The pivotal moment of his early sales education arrived at age twelve. Cuban interrupted his father's rotating poker game to request money for an expensive pair of basketball sneakers. His father looked down at his feet, told him his current shoes worked fine, and insisted, "When you have a job, you can buy whatever you want." Hearing the exchange, one of Norton's poker buddies offered the boy an inventory of trash bags for three dollars a box, challenging him to sell them for six. Cuban went door-to-door throughout the neighborhood using an irrefutable hook: “Hi, I'm your neighbor Mark. Do you use garbage bags?” The experience served as his primary masterclass in commercial resilience, leading Cuban to reflect: “And that probably catapulted me more than anything cuz if you can go door-to-door and sell, you can do anything.”
[06:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=372s) The Core Principles of Sales and Overcoming Rejection
Bartlett links Cuban's childhood door-to-door route to his own background cold-calling inside call centers, arguing that frontline rejection is the single most valuable education an aspiring founder can receive. Cuban agrees wholeheartedly, pointing out that learning to process an onslaught of "no" responses conditions the brain to think on its feet, counter objections, and maintain momentum: “Every no gets you closer to a yes, right? Just knowing how to deal with people telling you no and how to deal with objections and how to respond quickly. It just trains your mind to be quick. And once you can sell, I mean, you have a job for life.”
When Bartlett asks why sales capability stands as the non-negotiable bedrock of entrepreneurship, Cuban insists that no product, regardless of engineering excellence, survives without distribution. Furthermore, he explains that legitimate salesmanship is not about deception, manipulation, or talking someone into an unwise decision. Genuine salesmanship is rooted in product knowledge, empathy, and service. Whether an entrepreneur is offering double-paned windows to lower an electric bill or saving a homeowner a trip to the supermarket for trash bags, closing the deal hinges on aligning the offer with the customer's true needs. This fundamental reflex allowed Cuban to assess *Shark Tank* pitches instantly, identifying within seconds whether a founder understood how their product would realistically move through the market.
- **Foundational sales skills**: Fast mental agility, understanding the prospect's real problems, absorbing rejection without discouragement.
- **Sales as service**: Helping the buyer solve an issue (e.g., drafty windows causing a spike in heating bills) rather than forcing an unwanted product.
- **Shark Tank application**: Evaluating companies based on whether the founder has a viable, repeatable path to distribute and sell their product.
[08:28](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=508s) The Biggest Mistakes Young Entrepreneurs Make
Steven Bartlett points out how popular media fixates on tech founders like Mark Zuckerberg, who became wildly successful billionaires in their mid-twenties, leaving people in their early thirties feeling as though they missed their window. When Steven mentions Cuban selling his first company at thirty-one or thirty-two for $2 million, Cuban clarifies the financial specifics: it sold for $5 million and he netted $2 million. Asked about the modern youth's impatience and misconceptions regarding sacrifice, Cuban admits he was impatient too, but explains that his starting conditions gave him nothing to lose. After getting fired from a job, he lived packed into a three-bedroom apartment with five roommates, did not even have his own bedroom, and bartended on the side while starting MicroSolutions. In those early days, survival was measured in small increments—making it one month, three months, or celebrating having $15,000 in accounts receivable as an avenue out of squalor.
Cuban warns that younger founders today get seduced by stories of overnight Silicon Valley billionaires and mistakenly believe they must follow that hyper-funded route. The two fatal errors he sees are assuming a business requires venture capital and believing that top-line revenue matters more than profitability. MicroSolutions survived and grew because Cuban prioritized bottom-line cash flow above all else:
> “For MicroSolutions, our entire 8-year existence, we were profitable every single month.”
He emphasizes that the vast majority of financially successful people are not high-profile billionaires, but rather those who built businesses netting $5 million, $10 million, $25 million, or $100 million. That path represents the true, attainable American dream rather than a rare Silicon Valley anomaly.
- **MicroSolutions sale:** Acquired for $5 million, leaving Mark Cuban with a net payout of $2 million.
- **Early living conditions:** Shared a 3-bedroom apartment with five other men without having a dedicated bedroom.
- **Operating discipline:** Maintained monthly profitability for all eight years MicroSolutions operated, managing costs strictly to stay solvent.
---
[11:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=670s) What All Millionaires Have in Common: Focus and Effort Over Passion
Steven asks whether specific foundational principles unite individuals who accumulate anywhere from $1 million to $100 million across diverse industries. While sales skills are essential, Cuban stresses that the non-negotiable core is mastering a specific craft:
> “And then you're like, I'm great at this. Maybe if I want to be an entrepreneur, I can start a business about what I'm great at.”
Cuban ridicules the scattershot approach common on *Shark Tank* and across aspiring startups, where founders pursue three unrelated ideas at once under the false impression that it diversifies their chances, or ask open-ended questions like, "What business should I start?" Excellence in a single discipline creates inherent leverage. If you work inside a company and are exceptionally good at what you do, employers fight to keep you, competitors take notice, and you gain the requisite competence and confidence to launch an independent venture around that skill.
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: The Skill to Business Pipeline
accDescr: A flow illustrating how invested time leads to competence, confidence, and enterprise creation.
subgraph Development["Skill Development"]
A["Invest Time and Effort"] --> B["Develop True Competence"]
B --> C["Surpass Peers"]
end
subgraph Leverage["Career & Enterprise Leverage"]
C --> D["Gain Real Confidence"]
D --> E["Master the Craft"]
E --> F["Launch Convertible Business"]
end
```
When asked how an individual identifies what they are most likely to excel at, Cuban dismisses the conventional cliché of chasing passion. He jokes that he had immense passion for playing professional baseball and basketball, yet neither turned into a career. Instead, mastery is governed strictly by how you invest your hours. Engaging deeply with an activity reveals whether you enjoy it; if that activity can be commercialized—whether in technology, sales, or physical services like installing windows—repeated practice builds an edge over competitors. Outperforming those around you fuels personal confidence, expands the willingness to learn, and creates an enterprise with virtually no upper ceiling.
---
[13:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=812s) Transforming the Dallas Mavericks and Redefining Success
Steven introduces the concept of "long-termism," observing that great operators build defensible moats by planning across decade-long horizons rather than quarterly or five-year cycles, citing Cuban’s tenure with the Dallas Mavericks. Cuban immediately counters the notion: “That wasn't me.” When he bought the NBA franchise in January 2000, it was not born out of a calculated twenty-five-year enterprise roadmap. He was an avid basketball junkie and longtime season ticket holder who had just generated substantial wealth from selling Broadcast.com. Attending a game, he realized he could simply buy the franchise for the sheer thrill of it, relishing the chance to shoot hoops alongside stars like Dirk Nowitzki, Steve Nash, and Michael Finley.
Beyond fandom, the team represented an intellectual and operational challenge. The Mavericks had been officially recognized as the worst professional sports franchise of the previous decade. Cuban made it his mission to transform the perennial loser into a championship-caliber organization through data analytics, sports science, and player care. His intense competitiveness made defeats agonizing, often taking two full days to emotionally recover from a single loss. Over time, however, the landscape of the NBA fundamentally shifted away from pure basketball operations toward institutional real estate and financial asset valuation. When league meetings prioritized enterprise value over on-court excellence, the endeavor grew increasingly stressful and detached from why he bought the franchise.
- **Acquisition price:** Purchased the Dallas Mavericks for $285 million.
- **Exit price:** Sold his majority stake for $4.3 billion.
- **Franchise turnaround:** Took a team named the worst pro franchise of the 1990s and turned it into an NBA championship winner.
When Steven asks how he personally defines success, Cuban strips away financial metrics, pointing out that wealth affords the luxury of waking up eager to engage with the world rather than dreading a checklist:
> “Waking up in the morning with a smile on your face, excited about the day.”
[17:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=1023s) The Dallas Mavericks Championship and the Power of Communal Joy
Reflecting on his journey, Mark Cuban explains that sports operate on an entirely different emotional plane than conventional corporate enterprises. If an employee works at Google during its best quarter ever, or if Apple becomes the most valuable company in the world, nobody throws a parade in celebration. But when a sports team wins a championship, the entire city catches fire: half a million to a million people converge downtown in hundred-degree heat just to scream and celebrate with the players. Asked whether winning the 2011 NBA title was among the best days of his life, Cuban confirms that business-wise it certainly was, though the internal experience was surprisingly anti-climactic. Having suffered painful losses in games he previously thought were secured—and facing formidable opponents like LeBron James—Cuban remained anxious even when Dallas held a 10-point lead with thirty seconds left on the clock. When Miami hit a three-pointer, he caught himself reprimanding his own optimism.
Once the final buzzer sounded, the expected heavenly epiphany never arrived. Cuban found himself yelling and hugging everyone on the team, yet immediately thinking: “now what?” The true magic revealed itself afterward in the shared civic euphoria. Taking the Larry O’Brien Championship Trophy around Dallas—bringing it to neighborhood schools, bars, local restaurants, and his children’s activities—he watched people's eyes light up. As Cuban summarized the feeling: “Just that communal joy, that's what made it special.”
[18:42](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=1122s) Escaping the Paycheck-to-Paycheck Trap and *Why Men Rebel*
When Steven Bartlett asks what advice Cuban has for listeners feeling trapped in a 9-to-5 job with perhaps only $1,000 in savings, Cuban offers a pragmatic, unsentimental approach. He frequently urges recent college graduates to stop agonizing over landing the "best" or "perfect" job, because those opportunities are the rarest. Instead, the priority should simply be getting a job, committing to becoming exceptionally good at it, and maintaining ruthless self-honesty about one's performance. Most employees avoid admitting their shortcomings, telling themselves that management merely fails to appreciate their genius. Yet gaining true competence in any role—even at an entry-level franchise like McDonald's or Dairy Queen—creates an upward trajectory. Demonstrating progress and securing a glowing reference from an employer who genuinely regrets losing you builds the leverage needed to transition within two to three years.
```mermaid
flowchart LR
accTitle: The Stepping Stone Career Framework
accDescr: A four-step career progression showing how any entry-level job can build leverage for future opportunities.
A["Secure Any Job"] --> B["Master the Role & Stay Self-Aware"]
B --> C["Earn Internal Advancement & Reference"]
C --> D["Leverage Proof of Value for New Doors"]
```
Discussing the psychological friction that workers experience, Cuban cites Ted Robert Gurr’s book *Why Men Rebel*, which he read back in high school. The text examines the volatile gap between high human aspirations and perceived personal reality; when expectations remain unmet, frustration leads individuals to rebel or align with countercultural movements. Cuban admits he spent his entire youth rebelling and feeling like an outsider:
> “You've got to be able to put yourself in a position to at least feel better about yourself, even if it's not perfect.”
- **Cuban's High School Experience:** He was four inches shorter, twenty-five pounds heavier, and after crashing into a bicycle and breaking his front teeth, his family could only afford stainless steel caps, prompting his classmates to joke about the glare reflecting off his mouth.
- **Formative Work:** Like Jeff Bezos learning customer obsession at McDonald's or Cuban working at Marley's pub, unglamorous service roles teach people skills and customer empathy that transfer to any future business venture.
[22:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=1329s) The "Tied for Second" Work Ethic and the Birth of MicroSolutions
Tracing his early twenties, Cuban dispels romantic notions of overnight entrepreneurial success, framing his grind not as martyr-like sacrifice, but as the deliberate deferral of immediate gratification. Upon arriving in Dallas, he crammed into a rundown apartment with five roommates, sleeping directly on the floor with no bed. To support himself, he tended bar at night and eventually landed a daytime sales position at a computer retail store, which felt like his doorway into the nascent PC revolution. That tenure ended abruptly after nine months. Cuban had lined up an opportunity to pick up an order generating a $1,500 commission check—money that would have allowed him to finally move into his own place. When his boss ordered him to stay and man the retail floor rather than retrieve the check, Cuban made the executive call to leave and collect the money anyway. When he returned expecting praise, his manager fired him on the spot.
Faced with termination, Cuban accepted that he made a terrible employee and resolved to start his own company, MicroSolutions. Recognizing his lack of technical training, he realized that nobody else in the market understood the flood of new software either. He developed a guiding philosophy: with any new software release—such as the spreadsheet application Lotus 1-2-3—the only person alive who understood the program better than him was the author who wrote the source code. By spending grueling nights inside the closed retail shop or hauling bulky computers back to his floor-mat apartment to pore over manuals line by line, he could guarantee he was tied for second place in total product mastery. As Cuban put it:
> “New AI comes out, new model comes out, new software comes out, there's the creator and everybody else is tied for second and I'm going to kick their ass by learning it faster, better.”
Turning to the modern technological landscape, Cuban argues that artificial intelligence represents an unprecedented leap forward. Having navigated the evolution of personal computing, the rise of local networking, and the dawn of the public internet, he stresses that artificial intelligence outscales everything preceding it:
> “This dwarfs every everything else in aggregate.”
Rather than viewing AI as an esoteric threat, Cuban values it as an unmatched productivity multiplier and the ultimate educational equalizer. A user can instantly query an AI system for deep background dossiers on individuals like Steven Bartlett, or distill complex research down to actionable insights within seconds. Done correctly, generative systems democratize access to the totality of human knowledge, putting every library, published speech, and specialized manual into the hands of anyone willing to put in the effort to learn.
[25:57](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=1557s) Cognitive Dissonance and the Will to Prepare
Steven Bartlett reflects on how disruptive technologies inherently trigger creative destruction, tearing down legacy practices, career identities, and degrees. Citing psychologist Leon Festinger, Bartlett explains that the discomfort people feel when confronted with reality-altering shifts is classic cognitive dissonance, which leads many to bury their heads in the sand and pretend artificial intelligence will never affect them. Mark Cuban counters that he views disruption as pure opportunity, noting that when widespread denial sets in, an aggressive minority can capitalize simply by outworking the crowd.
Recalling his college years at Indiana University, Cuban shares a defining moment while watching Hoosiers men's basketball coach Bob Knight on *60 Minutes*. Knight delivered a single phrase that became Cuban’s lifelong north star: “Everybody's got the will to win. But it's only those with the will to prepare that actually do win.” For Cuban, that insight crystallized why so many competitors fail; everyone craves the victory, but almost nobody wants to endure the grueling, unglamorous preparation required to secure it.
[27:28](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=1648s) The Illusion of Overnight Wealth and the Lost Art of Delayed Gratification
Bartlett points out that preparation remains invisible to the public. Nobody saw Cuban taking software manuals home to his cramped apartment late at night; they only saw him on a double-decker victory bus hoisting the NBA championship trophy. Cuban emphasizes that modern social media algorithms amplify this disconnect. He describes his 16-to-17-year-old son being bombarded by algorithmic feeds on Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube promoting drop shipping, sneaker drops, day-trading courses, and even sidewalk power-washing businesses. Cuban constantly warned his son about the reality of those promotions: “If those were good businesses, they wouldn't be telling you about them. They would just be doing them.”
Cuban contends that legal protections like Section 230, which shield algorithmic recommendations, actively hold younger generations back by starving them of reality. Because reading technical manuals or practicing a skill generates no engagement or views, social platforms feed audiences 10-second snippets promising instant riches, completely erasing delayed gratification. Echoing Charlie Munger and Warren Buffett, Cuban argues that genuine wealth is generated through long-term compounding, disciplined skill mastery, and keeping cash ready for downturns. Cuban points to his own strategy during the COVID-19 crash, where he preserved capital and aggressively bought beaten-down assets while everyone else panicked.
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: The Social Media Echo Chamber vs Long-Term Compounding
accDescr: A comparison showing how algorithmic feeds encourage instant gratification while disciplined preparation yields enduring wealth.
subgraph Reality["The Compounding Edge"]
D["Unglamorous Preparation<br>& Deep Skill Mastery"] --> E["Disciplined Patience<br>& Holding Cash for Bear Markets"]
E --> F["Long-Term Compounding<br>& Lasting Wealth"]
end
```
- Cuban identifies Section 230 protections as a major reason algorithms prioritize sensationalized get-rich-quick content over depictions of genuine behind-the-scenes work.
- Cuban warns against getting swept up in FOMO during massive tech rallies, advising investors to maintain cash reserves because the greatest fortunes are built by buying quality assets during bear markets.
[31:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=1872s) The Meme-Stock Bubble and Baseball Card Investing
When Bartlett asks if the economy is trapped in an asset bubble, Cuban answers that while the current environment differs from the 2000–2001 dot-com crash, financial markets have largely detached from fundamental business metrics. Modern equities—ranging from Bitcoin and Micron to tech giants like Google and Apple—increasingly behave like meme stocks, driven by retail sentiment and algorithmic speculation rather than discounted cash flow models. Cuban points out that a company missing quarterly earnings projections by a single cent can suddenly crater 18% in market capitalization, even though its intrinsic enterprise value hasn't shifted overnight.
Critiquing this dynamic, Cuban summarizes the speculative state of public equity markets: “We're trading them like baseball cards.” Shares are bought and sold purely on what investors think the next person will pay, rather than net present values of future earnings. Despite acknowledging a bubble, Cuban cautions against trying to short or time its exact collapse. He draws parallels to Amazon and Michael Dell during the dot-com fallout; Amazon burned through immense sums of cash and was widely mocked, yet patient long-term believers who held on through the crash ended up owning trillion-dollar titans.
[33:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=1984s) Why Humans Outmatch AI: Predictive Next-Word Engines and the Latency Trap
Bartlett expresses surprise at Cuban's conviction that human beings will always remain smarter than artificial intelligence. Cuban demystifies large language models, explaining that whether considering Anthropic's Claude, Google's Gemini, or OpenAI's ChatGPT, every model is fundamentally out of date the exact moment it is released to the public. He stresses that real-time human conversation and breakthrough conceptual thinking do not exist inside pre-trained weights.
Cuban dismisses the notion that large language models possess genuine cognition: “AI is not smart. It just knows how to use statistics basically to predict the next word.” Because models rely on probabilistic pattern matching rather than deterministic logic, modifying a prompt even slightly can yield completely contradictory responses. This lack of causal understanding, ethics, and consequence recognition severely limits autonomous reliability in physical reality. To illustrate the latency and sensory limitations of AI, Cuban offers a vivid crosswalk analogy: if forced to cross a chaotic four-way intersection with speeding traffic, he would trust a seeing eye dog over the world's most advanced AI phone model every single time. Real-time physical environments shift in fractions of a second, and statistical software running on delayed processing cannot match biological instinct.
[34:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=2066s) The Limits of AI, Adversarial Exploits, and Data Fragmentation
Cuban argues that no matter how much companies compete to beat artificial benchmarks or push recursive self-improvement where models train themselves endlessly, artificial intelligence lacks fundamental real-world grounding and human intuition. To illustrate this gap, he offers a vivid parenting analogy: a two-year-old child sitting in a high chair with a sippy cup instinctively understands cause, effect, and human emotion—the toddler knows that knocking the cup off onto the floor will send Mom running over and cause the baby to crack up laughing. In Cuban’s view, AI will simply never figure that out. Steven pushes back by asking whether Cuban is failing to treat AI as an exponential technology. Looking at an S-curve or hockey-stick trajectory, Steven notes that each subsequent release leaps drastically forward, pointing out that Full Self-Driving in his Tesla already yields crash rates significantly lower than those of human drivers.
Cuban counters that exponential technological growth inevitably runs into human friction, social backlash, and inherent structural vulnerabilities. Recalling the title of a book he read in high school, *Why Men Rebel*, Cuban predicts widespread resistance: as data center construction provokes public protests, people will rebel against overbearing technology by forming disconnected communities, communes, or kibbutzes entirely free of tech. Furthermore, AI systems are fragile to adversarial actions—edge cases or malicious visual inputs that cause neural networks to miscalculate and react dangerously. Once bad actors understand these blind spots, they will deliberately exploit them.
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: Trade Secret Shift and Model Fragmentation
accDescr: Flowchart illustrating how protecting IP through trade secrets leads to fragmented models and requires human synthesis.
subgraph Defense["IP Protection Strategy"]
A["Hospital & Research Data"] -->|"Stop Publishing & Patenting"| B["Withhold as Trade Secrets"]
B -->|"Siloed Private Data"| C["Isolated In-House Models"]
end
subgraph LLMs["Fragmented Model Training"]
C -.->|"Excluded from Public Scrape"| D["Public LLMs"]
D --> E1["OpenAI ChatGPT"]
D --> E2["Google Gemini"]
D --> E3["Anthropic Claude"]
D --> E4["xAI Grok"]
end
subgraph Synthesis["Human Role"]
E1 & E2 & E3 & E4 -->|"Divergent Answers"| F["Synthesizing Discrepancies"]
F --> G["Human Decision-Making"]
end
```
Beyond security flaws, Cuban highlights a massive fragmentation in the data layer itself. When advising hospital executives and medical researchers on behalf of Cost Plus Drugs, he explicitly tells them they are crazy if they continue publishing or patenting their proprietary findings, because patenting exposes their intellectual property to be scraped and absorbed by public models without compensation. As organizations increasingly guard discoveries as trade secrets or private silos, models like ChatGPT, Google Gemini, Anthropic's Claude, and xAI's Grok are trained on diverging datasets. When every model produces conflicting answers or struggles with latency in live video, human judgment becomes the ultimate filter.
> “AI is incredible. But like having four of the smartest people next to you, they're not all going to give you the same answer and you have to have the skill set to be able to ask the right question.” — Mark Cuban
- Benchmark competitions and recursive self-improvement fail to capture embodied, common-sense human psychology.
- Public backlash against data centers mirrors historical social resistance to overbearing technological disruption.
- Adversarial inputs represent ongoing vulnerabilities where bad actors can intentionally trigger catastrophic system failures.
- Keeping research as trade secrets prevents public LLM scraping, leading to disparate training corpuses across frontier models.
---
[37:38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=2258s) Sponsor Segment: Cometeer Coffee & T-Mobile Super Broadband
Steven introduces two podcast sponsors, highlighting their practical advantages for daily life and business infrastructure:
- **Cometeer Coffee**: Steven shares how an office delivery in London caused his team's Slack channel to blow up with excitement within ninety minutes. Flash-frozen at the peak of flavor extraction, the coffee melts instantly into hot water or over ice without machines, plastic pods, or brewing mess. Steven notes that even the former president of Nespresso was convinced to invest after a single sip (available with a $30 discount at `cometeer.com/steven`).
- **T-Mobile Super Broadband**: Steven details the unseen reliance growing businesses have on resilient connectivity for cloud files, international communications, and continuous operations. T-Mobile's nationwide business internet integrates terrestrial 5G networks with Starlink satellite backup, establishing two independent pathways under one contract across every US zip code. If terrestrial broadband drops, satellite coverage seamlessly maintains the connection.
---
[39:56](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=2396s) How AI Agents Transform Workflow and Creative Destruction
Addressing fears promoted by tech CEOs that AI will destroy all employment, Cuban places the current shift in the context of classic creative destruction. He cites Terre Haute, Indiana—near his alma mater, Indiana University in Bloomington—which once thrived as a massive manufacturing hub for RCA vinyl records, then CDs, and later DVDs. While physical media vanished and the manufacturing jobs disappeared painfully, the music industry continued generating revenue in entirely new formats. Cuban argues that AI will inevitably displace roles and inflict transition pain on workers, but it will simultaneously spawn new business models and industries.
```mermaid
flowchart LR
accTitle: Cuban's Agentic Workflow for Cost Plus Drugs
accDescr: Diagram tracing Cuban's use of autonomous agents to monitor competitor litigation and acquire government records.
subgraph Monitoring["Automated Surveillance"]
A["Healthcare Conglomerates"] -->|"Monitored by Agents"| B["Litigation Filings"]
A -->|"Monitored by Agents"| C["Public Contract Bids"]
end
subgraph Action["Autonomous Execution"]
B & C --> D["Agent Flags to Cuban"]
D --> E["Draft Open Records Act Request"]
E --> F["Obtain State & Federal Contracts"]
end
subgraph Reinvestment["High-Level Human Output"]
F --> G["Formulate Strategic Attacks for Cost Plus Drugs"]
G --> H["Hire High-Level Strategic Talent"]
end
```
When Steven describes running roughly 25 AI agents on his phone to sift through personal and operational tasks, Cuban agrees enthusiastically about their utility while insisting: “But it’s not smart.” Cuban shares that deploying software agents finally allowed him to read a non-fiction book for the first time in 25 years by stripping the repetitive manual tasks off his daily to-do list. Rather than replacing high-level human creativity, agents eliminate the low-tier busywork—such as searching, summarizing, and administrative filing—that previously forced entrepreneurs to hire entry-level staff or interns at $15 to $20 an hour.
Cuban reveals his specific operational playbook for Cost Plus Drugs: he deploys autonomous agents to constantly monitor large healthcare conglomerates, alerting him instantly whenever a competitor faces a lawsuit or submits a bid on a contract. The agent can then automatically draft an Open Records Act filing to retrieve complete copies of those public contracts. Tasks that previously required an entire pipeline of hiring, training, and managing junior staff now occur autonomously, freeing Cuban to redirect his time and capital toward hiring higher-level strategic talent. Turning to family, Steven asks what Cuban advises his children to pursue, noting his son is 17 (alongside daughters aged 20 and 23). Cuban laughs, remarking that teenagers never ask their parents for future forecasts, though he insisted his oldest daughter learn how to build and operate software agents while she was in college.
> “All the tedious shit work that you didn't want to do or always couldn't get to or thought you had to hire somebody for, now you have an agent that does it. And your biggest decision, do you use Grokbot? Do you use, you know, Dot? Do you use, you know, Co-work? And then you try them all and you see they all give you a different answer. And then you have to use your brain again.” — Mark Cuban
- Terre Haute, Indiana serves as Cuban's historical benchmark for how physical media manufacturing vanished into creative destruction.
- Autonomous software agents free executive bandwidth by instantly executing administrative research and legal document drafting.
- Cuban's Cost Plus Drugs monitors pharmacy benefit managers and healthcare conglomerates using automated court-docket tracking and Open Records Act requests.
- While entry-level intern research tasks are being automated, cost savings and efficiency open up budget for higher-tier strategic hires.
[43:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=2620s) Why Preparation and Asking Better Questions Beat AI Alone
Mark Cuban describes the immense personal satisfaction of watching his daughter adopt artificial intelligence tools into her daily workflow. Attending one of her presentations, he beamed like a “proud papa” when she casually explained how she spun up an agent to handle one task and another agent to tackle another. Cuban stresses that this technological literacy is no longer optional for the next generation. Anyone with access to a smartphone, a home PC, or even a public library laptop connected to models like Claude or Gemini has immediate access to an omniscient research partner. When Steven Bartlett questions whether old-fashioned hard work still matters in an era where answers are generated on demand, Cuban responds unequivocally:
> “You have to learn this stuff because if you don't, the person who does is going to be so much more productive than you are.”
Cuban explains that the nature of work shifts from mechanical retrieval to the discipline of inquiry: one must take the time to consume the output, reflect, and iterate toward sharper, more incisive prompts. Reflecting on his own career, he dismisses the modern fixation on personal networks and formal mentorship. While others leaned on connected advisors, Cuban spent endless solitary hours reading manuals and books to teach himself new technologies. Today, he swaps stacks of books for tools like Claude, prompting them directly to dissect complex concepts or summarize Warren Buffett’s perspective on a specific issue.
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: The Edge in an AI Economy
accDescr: Diagram illustrating how raw AI output must be filtered through human judgment, integration, and real-world sales to generate business value.
subgraph Inputs["1. Information Inputs"]
A["Commoditized AI Tools<br/>(Claude, Gemini)"]
B["Unlimited Research & Data"]
end
subgraph HumanCore["2. The Human Edge"]
C["Critical Curation<br/>(Deciding What Is Right vs Wrong)"]
D["Real-Time Perception & Sensory Inputs"]
end
subgraph Execution["3. Real-World Execution"]
E["Contextual Integration"]
F["Sales, Distribution & Teaching Agents"]
end
Inputs --> HumanCore
HumanCore --> Execution
```
[44:39](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=2679s) Why AI Is "Brute Force" Rather Than Real Intelligence
When Bartlett asks what constitutes a professional edge when everyone possesses access to identical tools and data, Cuban argues that the differentiator lies in contextual judgment and real-world execution. While an AI can instantly draft an end-to-end business plan and design supporting software agents, the human founder must exercise discerning taste: evaluating what makes commercial sense, what is structurally flawed, and ultimately going out into the market to sell the product or train agents to conduct sales. At its core, Cuban contends, artificial intelligence does not possess genuine intellect—it is simply a tireless machine grinding through permutations.
> “AI is not smart. It just grinds and grinds and grinds.”
To illustrate why he refuses to align with existential AI "doomers," Cuban cites his conversations with top cybersecurity professionals. When alarming headlines circulate about artificial intelligence infiltrating complex systems or breaching secure databases, Cuban always asks the experts whether the AI actually invented a novel exploit or discovered an unprecedented attack vector. The answer is consistently no; the systems merely take standard vulnerability lists and execute brute-force tests across every conceivable permutation far faster than a human operator could. Crucially, Cuban points out that this exact brute-force capability exists on the defensive side as well, allowing organizations to find their own security vulnerabilities proactively and counter adversaries before they attack. For Cuban, the primary danger lies not in malicious software outsmarting humanity, but in the reckless policy choices and overreactions triggered by human fear and ignorance.
[46:36](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=2796s) Book Smarts vs. Real Intelligence and Sensory Limits
Cuban equates modern artificial intelligence to an individual who is merely "book smart"—someone who excels on academic tests solely because they possess a photographic memory for static text, yet remains incapable of novel problem-solving in dynamic environments. He outlines his personal criteria for true intelligence: the capacity to independently identify which problem actually needs solving, discern where to look for relevant data inputs, and synthesize those disparate pieces under fluid circumstances.
> “Smart is being able to aggregate information and inputs. Smart is being able to know where to look for the inputs and being able to take them and then aggregate them to solve a problem. And also being able to identify the problem you're trying to solve. AI doesn't do that.”
To demonstrate the insurmountable boundary separating current models from human experience, Cuban uses an unscripted healthcare scenario:
- A physician using AI can retrieve medical literature and clinical trial papers instantaneously.
- If a patient suddenly becomes violently ill and vomits mid-examination, the physician cannot simply ask the software what went wrong.
- The diagnosis demands physical sensory awareness, visceral real-time observation, clinical intuition, and the experience to ask the patient the right next question.
- Because an algorithm cannot inhabit physical reality or process the full spectrum of sensory inputs available to humans, it remains blind to real-time anomalies.
When pressed on whether recursive self-improvement could eventually change his mind, Cuban establishes a clear benchmark: true intelligence is the ability to solve complex, novel challenges with minimal resources. He highlights how a brilliant twelve-year-old child from an impoverished background can observe the world, locate obscure sources of information, and solve hard problems without capital or infrastructure. In contrast, today's AI systems demand an unprecedented concentration of GPUs, billions of dollars in infrastructure, and massive electric power grids just to match patterns, which Cuban sees as the exact antithesis of resource-efficient intelligence.
[48:59](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=2939s) Silicon Valley Hype, Elon Musk, and Mainframe History
Turning to Silicon Valley's grandest prognostications—such as Elon Musk’s assertions that humanoid robots will eliminate labor scarcity and render employment optional—Cuban maintains an affectionate but pragmatic skepticism. While praising Musk as the absolute preeminent entrepreneur of our generation, Cuban points out that Musk is fundamentally a world-class salesman whose audacious visions are necessary to raise the billions of dollars his ambitious projects demand. Cuban jokes that while he and Musk frequently spar with each other on X (formerly Twitter), one must contextualize Musk's public commentary as strategic enterprise promotion. Bartlett notes that conversations across AI safety researchers and frontier lab executives reveal a chaotic lack of consensus, a dynamic Cuban views as definitive proof that the technology's ultimate trajectory is nowhere near as predetermined as hype cycles suggest.
> “Because it should be obvious. If it was so dominant and there was a destination that everybody understood is where we would get to, it would be obvious to everybody and we all would see it.”
Cuban rejects Bartlett's suggestion that early computing followed this same heavy brute-force paradigm. Mainframes running Fortran on punch cards possessed negligible compute capacity compared to a modern smartphone, forcing early computer scientists to write exceptionally elegant, efficient code to achieve breakthroughs. While Moore's Law historically delivered continuous miniaturization and speed, the modern AI frenzy relies on compounding physical resources to compensate for architectural brute force. For Cuban, as long as systemic latency and sensory detachment persist, human cognition maintains the ultimate competitive advantage.
[51:29](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=3089s) The Threat of an AI Capital Expenditure Debt Bubble
Cuban firmly pushes back against the notion that he is an AI skeptic, drawing parallels to his early days pioneering internet streaming at Broadcast.com (then referred to as "netcasting"), where legacy media critics mocked him and asserted that consumers would never abandon conventional television and radio. Rather than opposing the technology, Cuban insists that capturing AI's true economic upside requires stripping away corporate mythology and acknowledging hard physical and fiscal constraints.
> “Because in order for AI to reach the pinnacle that everybody wants to reach it, you have to have less power doing more, not more power doing more.”
Cuban recalls his provocative metaphor that massive data centers could eventually be repurposed into indoor pickleball courts if the cost-to-intelligence scaling curve fails to normalize. The demand for compute has created an unsustainable cycle of aggressive capital expenditure:
- Tech hyperscalers are borrowing capital at unprecedented scales that outpace their operational cash flows to secure land, power contracts, and server clusters.
- This private debt accumulation coincides with a ballooning United States federal deficit, requiring the federal government to issue massive quantities of debt.
- As mega-cap tech corporations and sovereign entities compete for capital in the credit markets, structural upward pressure is exerted on benchmark interest rates, raising the real probability of a systemic debt bubble.
[53:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=3193s) The Debt Bubble and the AI Liquidity Squeeze
Mark Cuban analyzes the looming macro risks facing the tech sector and the broader economy, warning that massive corporate debt loads combined with rising interest rates threaten to choke off capital. He notes that companies carrying enormous obligations—such as $40 billion in debt—face severe liquidity limits if rates climb, because eventually the market simply cuts off funding. Pointing out the distortions in today's tech ecosystem, Cuban observes that while he is a major admirer of Nvidia and CEO Jensen Huang, Nvidia is effectively bankrolling half the ecosystem because it alone possesses the massive cash reserves to do so. In contrast, other tech giants are leveraged heavily; Cuban highlights Meta borrowing significantly beyond its cash flows, arguing that if the underlying economics were truly brilliant, companies would not need to borrow so excessively against their operational performance.
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: Macro Debt Squeeze on Tech and AI
accDescr: Diagram illustrating how rising interest rates and government borrowing crowd out AI hyperscaler financing.
subgraph Macro["Macroeconomic Pressures"]
A["National Debt Service: $1T/year"]
B["10-Year Treasury Yield Spikes (5.2% to 6-10%)"]
end
subgraph Corporate["Corporate & Tech Sector"]
C["Hyperscalers Borrowing Beyond Cash Flow"]
D["Nvidia Subsidizing Industry via Cash Reserves"]
end
A --> E
B --> E
C --> E
D -.->|"Temporary Lifeline"| C
E --> F
```
Cuban draws parallels to Ray Dalio’s macroeconomic thesis, warning that mature economies like the United States and the United Kingdom have already progressed far along the debt cycle, entering a phase marked by declining global dominance and excessive indebtedness where fiat currencies eventually face debasement. Steven Bartlett asks where we sit in that curve, noting it is difficult for younger generations—who have grown up during an era of unquestioned American dominance—to envision such a collapse. Cuban agrees that while American resilience often leads people to believe a solution will emerge, the transition will be painful, particularly because politicians are adept at sloganeering but ineffective at meaningful execution. Furthermore, Cuban dismisses the idea that AI will painlessly lift the economy out of this hole:
> “And right now at current interest rates, we're paying a trillion dollars in interest every year in this country. A trillion. And if the interest rates keep on going up and what we have to borrow keeps on going up, and then you've got all these hyperscalers competing to get access to that money, something gets crowded out. I don't know which or what. I'm not enough of a financial expert to do that, but something's going to give.”
- The US 10-year Treasury yield hovers around 5.2%, with risks of escalating to 6%, 8%, or 10%.
- US national interest payments currently run at roughly $1 trillion per year.
- Cuban operates defensively in his personal finances by diversifying holdings internationally and keeping substantial capital off the table in cash—channeling Warren Buffett’s patient approach—while waiting to see how the private credit and hyperscaler cycle unfolds.
---
[56:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=3376s) AI-Proof Skills and Face-to-Face Value
Discussing how normal individuals should navigate the AI revolution and corporate debt pressures, Bartlett suggests that doubling down on unique personal skills and domain knowledge remains the only asset nobody can diminish. Cuban completely agrees, asserting that surrendering to the hype or despair is counterproductive. As autonomous AI agents take over interface tasks and desktop execution, Cuban argues that non-commoditized interpersonal communication becomes far more valuable.
To capitalize on human interaction, Cuban highlights investments he has made in real-world, experiential connection, such as a silent disco company operating in Brentwood. He notes that the explosive rise in sports team franchise valuations has been fueled by the widespread belief among investors that live, physical human gatherings are fundamentally AI-proof, even if the sports business faces other distinct structural challenges.
> “In a world where, you know, maybe my agent's going to run my computer for me, but I'm still going to have to interact—more valuable, doesn't it?”
---
[58:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=3520s) Childhood Insecurities, Defiance, and the Meaning of Wealth
Shifting inward, Bartlett revisits an earlier mention by Cuban about having his teeth knocked out and asks whether deep-seated insecurities fueled his relentless ambition. Cuban candidly confirms this, acknowledging that he felt completely overlooked as the "fat kid" growing up. To force people to pay attention, he engaged in calculated acts of teenage rebellion: he wore a shirt emblazoned with profanity to school—getting suspended within 20 minutes—and ripped his denim jeans from cuff to hip, holding them together with staples purely to stick out. Despite these antics, his high school peers largely forgot him; when former classmates were interviewed after he achieved fame, most had no recollection of him, and one yearbook photograph circulating online with his name circled was not even him.
Entering Indiana University gave Cuban a blank slate to deliberately redefine his identity and prove his skeptics wrong. Yet Cuban emphasizes that his drive was never about chasing luxury or vanity; it was rooted in a fierce hatred of being broke and an absolute desire for autonomy over his daily schedule. Upon selling his first major company, MicroSolutions, for millions, he refused to jump into the next hustle. Instead, he purchased an unlimited lifetime first-class pass on American Airlines, committed himself to traveling the world, and made a symbolic break with convention:
> “And the day I sold MicroSolutions, I took off my watch and I said, 'I'm never going to wear a watch again because that means I'm working on somebody else's time.' When by not having a watch, by being successful, it's my time. Why I don't get dressed up, why I I won't wear a tie. It's like swag isn't how you dress. Swag is being able to tell somebody else how they dress, you know? And I just wanted to control my own destiny and my own time.”
Later, at age 37, Cuban co-founded Broadcast.com, selling it just four years later to Yahoo for $5.7 billion in stock, leaving him with a paper net worth between $1.5 and $1.7 billion. Cuban reflects that moving from hustling to multibillion-dollar financial security changed everything internally—not by fueling material indulgence, but by granting him the total freedom to take audacious swings he never dreamed possible, such as purchasing the Dallas Mavericks and steering his own life entirely on his own terms.
[01:02:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=3722s) Wealth, Happiness, and What Really Changes
Mark Cuban reflects on the stark contrast between his current freedom and the daily reality his parents endured. His parents never had the luxury of choice; they were continually obligated to someone else, had to show up to work every day, and had to be on their best behavior with bosses and colleagues. For them, simply coming home, eating dinner, and watching television was their daily joy. When asked what his father thought upon seeing him achieve immense success, Cuban shares with a laugh that his dad would simply break down in tears: “Oh, he would just cry and cry and cry. We're an emotional family, let's put it that way, yeah.” His father would shake his head in disbelief, telling him he had no idea where Mark got his entrepreneurial drive because it certainly had not come from him or his mother.
When asked what acquiring extraordinary wealth taught him about happiness and life's core purpose, Cuban delivers a blunt reality check: “If you're miserable when you're poor, good chance you're going to be miserable when you're rich.” Money cannot rewrite character, philosophy, or self-worth. While he admits that he prefers being rich over being broke, his deepest pride lies in maintaining his lifelong relationships. His circle has never changed: his high school friends remain his best friends, he stays deeply connected to his brothers and former rugby teammates, and he surrounds himself with the people who grounded him before the wealth arrived.
[01:03:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=3797s) Kindness Versus Ruthlessness in Business
Cuban rejects the conventional trope that ruthlessness is necessary to build a massive business empire. Earlier in his career at MicroSolutions, he frequently fell into the trap of yelling and screaming at people. It was only when his business partner at Broadcast.com, Todd Wagner, pulled him aside and cautioned him that people were terrified of him and that his hostility was counterproductive, that Cuban changed course. Embracing that feedback transformed his leadership style: “And I found that I got a lot further by being nice than by being a dick.”
Steven Bartlett plays devil's advocate, referencing figures known for high-intensity anger like Steve Jobs or Ari Emanuel, and asks whether showing kindness leads others to walk all over you. Cuban dismisses the concern. While he admits yelling at NBA referees during Dallas Mavericks games served as a convenient outlet to blow off steam, he insists that raging at people in business accomplishes nothing. Anger will not alter the outcome, and since harboring it only makes him feel worse, he chooses to let it go. Treating people with decency and empathy simply yields superior results, creates less friction, and keeps him happy.
[01:05:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=3903s) The Burden of Celebrity Over Wealth
Cuban explains that handling fame proved significantly harder than adjusting to extreme wealth. Having money removed basic stressors—he no longer worried about bills or housing—but it never altered who he was as an individual. Celebrity status, by contrast, introduced an invasive spotlight that multiplied when the Dallas Mavericks won the NBA championship in 2011 and *Shark Tank* surged to peak television ratings. While wealth affords quiet personal autonomy, public recognition invites constant outside attention, both good and bad, whether one wants it or not.
- **Wealth vs. Celebrity:** Wealth resolves logistical stress without drawing automatic scrutiny; celebrity brings constant external evaluation and public intrusion.
- **Peak spotlight years:** The confluence of the Mavericks' 2011 championship and *Shark Tank*'s cultural peak magnified the public pressure intensely.
[01:06:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=3974s) Brotherhood, the Cuban Name, and Saving Brian's Life
Being the eldest of three brothers—with a two-and-a-half-year gap to Brian and a six-year gap to Jeff—Cuban naturally became a figure to follow. Although his early departure for college at Indiana University temporarily created distance while his brothers were young, both eventually followed him down to Dallas and lived with him. Yet his skyrocketing profile became a double-edged sword for them. Carrying the Cuban surname in Dallas turned into an unintended weight. Because the last name is so uncommon, people immediately asked how they were related to Mark, often questioning whether they were living off his success despite both brothers forging smart, independent careers.
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: Cuban Brothers Support Network
accDescr: Diagram showing how Mark and Jeff Cuban supported their brother Brian through his crisis to long-term sobriety.
subgraph SiblingDynamics["Family Background"]
A["Mark Cuban<br>(Eldest Brother)"]
B["Brian Cuban<br>(Middle Brother)"]
C["Jeff Cuban<br>(Youngest Brother)"]
end
subgraph CrisisEvent["July 2005 Crisis"]
D["Public pressure & personal struggles"] --> E["Lowest point:<br>Suicidal thoughts"]
E --> F["Jeff discovers crisis & alerts Mark"]
end
subgraph Intervention["Family Intervention & Outcome"]
F --> G["Mark returns to Dallas immediately"]
G --> H["Mark & Jeff check Brian into rehab"]
H --> I["Continuous sobriety & tight-knit bond<br>(Living within walking distance)"]
end
B --> D
A -.->|"Support & travel back"| G
C -.->|"Initial phone call"| F
```
The emotional core of the conversation surfaces when Bartlett shares that the production team spoke to Brian, who wrote an intimate letter for Mark. Cuban's voice catches as Bartlett reads the note aloud:
> “We have so many great childhood memories. It's hard to pick one. So, I'll go to the one that feels most personal to me. July 2005 is the lowest moment in my life wanting to end it. You and Jeff were there for me as you both always have been. I wouldn't be here today if not for you both. As our dad told us growing up, no matter what happens or where you go, always stay in contact with your brothers. It's no accident that after so many decades, 1,200 miles from Pittsburgh, we all live within walking distance of each other. I love you.”
Wiping away tears, Cuban explains that the intense spotlight following his purchase of the Mavericks in 2000 had compounded Brian's personal battles with addiction. When the crisis escalated in July 2005, Jeff alerted Mark, who immediately flew back to Dallas. Together, the two brothers took Brian directly to a rehabilitation facility, saving his life and marking the beginning of his lasting sobriety. Honoring their late father's rule to always protect their family bond, all three brothers remain inseparable, living within walking distance of one another in Dallas and trading daily texts about life, Pittsburgh Steelers football, and Pirates baseball games.
[01:10:31](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=4231s) Confronting Mortality and Recalibrating Priorities
Steven Bartlett brings up the passing of Mark Cuban’s parents—his mother and father passing away between 2017 and 2022—and asks whether those moments brought the family and siblings closer together. Cuban confirms that while it brought them together in the obvious immediate sense, its deeper psychological impact was forcing him to face his own aging: “And my dad made it to 92, my mom made it to 85, and that sounds like a long time until you realize it's not as long as you hope.”
Bartlett connects this confrontation with mortality to Cuban's major life transitions, such as stepping away from *Shark Tank* and selling his majority interest in the Dallas Mavericks. Cuban agrees completely. Experiencing that vulnerability clarified what truly matters, diminishing the pull of business travel and work commitments. He reflects on how easy it had been to miss a child’s birthday under the rationalization that he would catch the next one—a habit he realized was a mistake. At the time he decided to sell the Mavericks, his children were 13, 16, and 19 years old. Knowing the window before they moved out on their own was closing fast, he chose to prioritize being physically present.
[01:12:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=4327s) The Reality of Entrepreneurship
Bartlett asks whether everyone should be an entrepreneur, prompting an immediate negative response from Cuban. Cuban argues that people often hold a romanticized view of business ownership: “If you have to ask yourself if you can be an entrepreneur, you're probably not an entrepreneur.”
While many pursue entrepreneurship under the illusion that it will free them from the authority of a boss and grant them total autonomy over their schedule, Cuban points out that the reality is inverted: “You have no control of your life as an entrepreneur because your customers, your employees, there's always something.” In companies with fewer than 100 employees, the organization functions like an extended family where the owner must personally navigate employees' personal crises, such as a sick child, carrying constant operational and emotional responsibility that novice founders never anticipate.
[01:13:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=4387s) The 21-Year-Old Mark vs. Today: Grinding and Knowing Limitations
Looking at an old photograph Bartlett provides of a young, twenty-something Cuban working in his bedroom, Cuban points out an unhung poster leaning against the wall that reads "Poverty Sucks." He shares that throughout his early career, that exact sign was hung up in every house and apartment he lived in as a reminder of what he was escaping. Lacking any formal credential in computer science, he taught himself programming from scratch through sheer endurance. He recalls pulling 25- to 28-hour continuous coding marathons fueled only by a bucket of ribs, becoming so locked into the work that entire days would pass without him noticing.
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: Cuban's Complimentary Business Partnerships
accDescr: Diagram illustrating Mark Cuban's visionary approach paired with detail-oriented business partners across his companies.
subgraph CubanRole ["Mark Cuban's Operating Style"]
MC["Mark Cuban<br/>• Vision, Sales, Strategy<br/>• 'Ready, Fire, Aim'<br/>• High Speed & Urgency"]
end
subgraph DetailPartners ["Complementary Detail Partners"]
MW["Martin Woodall<br/>(MicroSolutions)<br/>• Perfectionist Execution"]
TW["Todd Wagner<br/>(Broadcast.com)<br/>• Operational Balance"]
AO["Dr. Alex Oshmyansky<br/>(Cost Plus Drugs)<br/>• Highly Detail-Oriented"]
end
MC <-->|"Balances details & execution"| MW
MC <-->|"Balances operational discipline"| TW
MC <-->|"Balances rigorous execution"| AO
```
Bartlett turns to the other side of self-discovery: learning what one is bad at. Cuban readily admits he is terrible at meticulous, granular work, describing his style as "ready, fire, aim." He survived and scaled his businesses only because he found complementary partners who excelled at operational rigor:
- **Martin Woodall** at MicroSolutions, who was an exact, perfectionist counterweight to Cuban's chaotic forward drive.
- **Todd Wagner** at Broadcast.com, who brought complementary structural execution.
- **Dr. Alex Oshmyansky** at Cost Plus Drugs, who manages the intricate, detail-heavy realities of the pharmaceutical industry.
Addressing finance, Cuban explains that while he does not hold a dedicated finance degree, his coursework in finance and entrepreneurship gave him a strong practical grasp of deal structures and mergers and acquisitions.
[01:16:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=4562s) Why Hiring Is Hard and Culture Matters: The Mavericks Turnaround
Cuban draws a sharp line between leadership and hiring, stating that while he considers himself a good leader, he is an awful interviewer. Driven by an innate salesperson's optimism, he instinctively wants to fix people: “As a salesperson, I would see Steven sitting sitting across from me and Steven would give me an answer to a question. I'm like, 'Okay, I can help Steven. I can make it work. I want this guy to be successful at my company.' And I would hire the worst possible people.” His team members eventually told him never to look at resumes because of his tendency to take on reclamation projects. Consequently, his organizations adopted the operating rule to "hire slow, but fire fast."
When Cuban purchased the Dallas Mavericks in 2000, he discovered an organization devoid of culture and ambition:
- Both office staff and players treated the franchise as a temporary "way station" for people unable to land roles with premier teams like the Los Angeles Lakers or the Boston Celtics.
- Cuban addressed the locker room directly, announcing that the franchise was switching to high-speed "internet time," setting a strict expectation of winning, and offering immediate trades to anyone who was not completely committed.
- He was stunned to find that the team employed only a head coach and roughly three assistants to oversee training and player development—the league standard at the time—meaning the organization was spending more money on IT support than on improving the physical and tactical skills of multi-million-dollar athletes.
- He instructed his front office and coaching staff to track down former Mavericks players to bring them in, creating dedicated, one-on-one player development roles to overhaul the team's operational standard.
[01:18:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=4720s) Transforming the Mavericks Culture and Challenging the NBA Status Quo
To turn around the Dallas Mavericks, Mark Cuban realized he had to invest deeply in player development and organizational respect. He brought in former players who had skill sets identical to the current roster members to act as dedicated personal coaches: “That made perfect sense to me because all these former players wanted to get in and we hardly had to pay them anything.” These former athletes were eager to remain in the game, and having them work one-on-one with the roster completely shifted the locker-room mindset, signaling that winning was the paramount objective.
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: Culture Shift Under Mark Cuban
accDescr: Interventions executed by Mark Cuban upon purchasing the Dallas Mavericks that transformed team performance.
subgraph Interventions["Cuban's Team Upgrades"]
A["1-on-1 Player Coaches<br>(Former NBA talent)"]
B["Team-Owned Plane<br>(Comfort for 7ft+ players)"]
C["Nutritionists & Custom Food Prep"]
D["NBA's 1st Analytics Hire<br>(Wayne Winston)"]
end
subgraph Culture["Cultural & Performance Shift"]
E["Player Buy-in & Professionalism"]
F["Immediate 31-19 Record Flip"]
G["2006 NBA Finals & 2011 Championship"]
end
Interventions --> Culture
```
The rest of the league, however, despised Cuban's unconventional, big-spending approach: “Oh my god, they hated me.” When Cuban saw his players flying out of Oakland, California, at 3:00 in the morning on cramped commercial charters where 7-foot-6 center Shawn Bradley had to squeeze into a regular seat, he bought a custom team plane. Cuban famously told the players to mess with the rest of the league by telling people there was a weight room and a steam room on board—a rumor people still ask him about to this day. Beyond airplanes, Cuban introduced personal nutritionists and bespoke prepped meals long before either was commonplace in professional basketball, proving to his roster that he would provide whatever tools were necessary to win.
- **Immediate turnaround:** When Cuban acquired the team in January, the Mavericks held a dismal 9–23 record; over the final 50 games of that season, they went 31–19.
- **Franchise achievements:** During Cuban's tenure, Dallas maintained the second-highest regular-season winning percentage in the NBA, improving their overall win rate from 39% to nearly 60%, reaching the NBA Finals in 2006, and winning the championship in 2011.
- **Ownership stakes:** Cuban sold majority control of the Mavericks in 2023, though he retained a 27% minority share.
---
[01:21:47](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=4907s) Business as the Ultimate Sport and the Birth of NBA Analytics
Steven observes that sports teams provide an ideal sandbox for business because the scoreboard gives immediate, indisputable feedback, unlike the ambiguity often present in commercial enterprise. Cuban takes it further, noting that while sports features offseasons where coaches can trade or cut players, business operates without breaks: “In business, it's 24/7 by 365. It's the ultimate sport, which is, you know, if you have competitive juices, business is the ultimate way to fill that need.”
To maintain an edge, Cuban emphasizes constant innovation. As an 18-year-old undergraduate at Indiana University, Cuban had snuck into MBA classes, including a statistics course taught by Professor Wayne Winston. Roughly six months after buying the Mavericks, Cuban was watching television and saw Winston dominating contestants on *Jeopardy!*. Weeks later, while attending a game against the Indiana Pacers in Indianapolis, Cuban heard someone shouting his name from the stands. Recognizing Winston from his recent television appearance, Cuban listened to his ideas about applying statistical modeling to basketball and hired him on the spot as the NBA's first full-time analytics staffer. Cuban argues that organizations must blend empirical data with observation rather than relying solely on the visual "eye test," pointing out that some players with unorthodox shooting mechanics or modest scoring averages actually drive team victories far more than conventional 25-point scorers.
---
[01:23:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=5015s) Family, Fatherhood, and the Unforgiving Reality of Fame
The conversation shifts personal when Steven jokingly pretends he spoke to Cuban's wife, Tiffany. Cuban met Tiffany in a gym when he was in his late 30s; the pair married in 2002 when he was 44, and they share three children. Despite his lifelong obsession with competition, Cuban makes it clear that fatherhood fundamentally eclipses his business achievements: “You got one part of my brain that is like business, business, business, business, you know, compete, compete, compete, and then you've got the better part of me that's my kids, my kids, my kids, and my wife, and they've just changed me for the better in a million ways I can't even describe.”
Cuban candidly admits that he could not have built his early empires—such as MicroSolutions—while being fully engaged as a family man, acknowledging that he put business first during those decades. Looking back, he carries real remorse over having missed smaller moments with his young children by rationalizing that they were too young to remember. That lingering regret directly influenced his decisions to step down from *Shark Tank* and sell his majority share in the Mavericks.
He also reflects on the heavy burden of public visibility placed onto his children. He regularly reminded them that while their peers could make foolish mistakes in anonymity, any misstep they made would land on the front page of newspapers and circulate across global social media feeds. In an emotional admission, Cuban tears up, revealing that his absolute favorite word in the entire world is simply "dad."
[01:26:54](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=5214s) Mortality, Family Legacy, and Life After the Mavericks
Cuban opens up about how aging naturally shifts one’s perspective toward mortality. With his parents now passed away, he keeps their photographs hanging in his closet and makes a quiet point of greeting them every single morning and evening. He hopes to establish that same enduring emotional connection with his own children once he is gone, striving to live a life they can feel proud of and carry forward together. When Bartlett remarks that his children certainly must be proud already, Cuban chuckles and notes that they are still at an age where those deep, explicit conversations simply do not happen yet.
The conversation turns to Cuban's evolution and future trajectory after stepping away from *Shark Tank*—where Bartlett mentions he has recently joined as a guest shark, joking about the "unfillable shoes" Cuban leaves behind. Bartlett mentions Cuban being 68, prompting Cuban to joke that he is only 48. Acknowledging that Cuban looks remarkably fit and continues to play competitive basketball, Bartlett asks what grand objective defines this next phase of his career.
[01:27:37](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=5257s) Cost Plus Drugs: Taking on the American Healthcare Monopolies
Cuban answers without hesitation: his overriding mission is transforming the broken American healthcare system through Cost Plus Drugs. He contrasts the fleeting thrill of owning a sports franchise with the profound human impact of affordable medicine. While hearing fans praise a great Mavericks game was wonderful, nothing compares to strangers walking up to him in public to share that Cost Plus Drugs saved them $1,000 a month, making life-saving prescriptions affordable for the first time.
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: Cost Plus Drugs Disruption Strategy
accDescr: Diagram showing how Mark Cuban targets self-insured employers to bypass the dominant healthcare pharmacy middleman conglomerates.
subgraph Problem ["The Healthcare Monopoly"]
Dominance["3 Giant Healthcare Conglomerates\n(Hundreds of billions in sales)"]
HighCost["Inflated Prescription Costs\nfor Working Families"]
Dominance --> HighCost
end
subgraph Solution ["Cost Plus Drugs Model"]
DirectPitch --> Disruption["Cost Plus Drugs:\nTransparent Wholesale Pricing"]
Disruption --> Affordability["Drastic Cost Savings\nHealthcare Treated as a Right"]
end
```
Bartlett notes that Cuban's involvement brings unprecedented visibility to an entrenched industry that prefers to operate in the shadows. Cuban adamantly promises to dismantle that status quo, targeting the vulnerability of the system:
> “Oh, and I’ll fix it. I promise you I will fix it because there are three basically big companies that dominate all of health care.”
He emphasizes that 67% of Americans who receive health benefits through work are covered by self-insured employers who personally foot every medical bill. Because those companies bear direct financial liability, Cuban personally goes door-to-door to major CEOs, aggressively confronting them about their outsourced insurance choices to convince them to bypass middleman bloat. When Bartlett brings up Cuban's polarized, roller-coaster relationship with Donald Trump and a recent occasion where the two stood together discussing drug pricing, Cuban makes it clear that he will partner with anyone across political lines if it brings tangible relief:
> “And the goal is to change health care in this country so that it is what it is, truly a right.”
- **Dominant players:** Three massive healthcare conglomerates generate hundreds of billions in revenue while monopolizing access to prescriptions.
- **Self-insured leverage:** Over two-thirds (67%) of employer-insured Americans work for companies that self-insure, meaning chief executives have the direct authority to slash drug costs by changing vendors.
- **Non-partisan mission:** Cuban brushes aside political friction or public criticism, maintaining that making medicine accessible and affordable transcends political feuds.
[01:29:59](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=5399s) The Hardest Question and Final Reflections
Bartlett introduces the podcast’s signature tradition: opening a sealed book to read an anonymous question left by the prior guest without knowing who it was addressed to. The question asks: *"What's the hardest question you weren't asked?"* Cuban reflects on the interview and replies that the hardest topics are always those that cut deep emotionally—specifically the deeply personal questions about family and children that rarely get raised in business interviews.
Closing the conversation, Bartlett thanks Cuban for being a lifelong source of perspective and resilience, remarking that Cuban disproves the common myth that one must abandon decency to achieve elite status. He emphasizes that Cuban proves an entrepreneur can be extraordinarily wealthy while remaining kind, cheerful, and grounded. Cuban humorously quips, "Let's not go too far," before Bartlett concludes by celebrating Cuban's genuine energy and thanking him for the extensive conversation.
## Notable quotes
> [01:12:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=4327s) If you have to ask yourself if you can be an entrepreneur, you're probably not an entrepreneur. — Mark Cuban
> [01:02:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=3722s) If you're miserable when you're poor, good chance you're going to be miserable when you're rich. — Mark Cuban
> [33:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=1984s) AI is not smart. It just knows how to use statistics basically to predict the next word. — Mark Cuban
> [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=0s) I got a lot further by being nice than by being a dick. — Mark Cuban
> [01:12:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=4327s) You have no control of your life as an entrepreneur because your customers, your employees, there's always something. — Mark Cuban
> [06:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=372s) And once you can sell, I mean, you have a job for life. — Mark Cuban
## Mentioned
Mark Cuban, Steven Bartlett, Norton Cuban, Brian Cuban, Jeff Cuban, Tiffany Cuban, Roberto Clemente, Willie Stargell, Mark Zuckerberg, Dirk Nowitzki, Steve Nash, Michael Finley, LeBron James, Shawn Bradley, Ted Robert Gurr, Jeff Bezos, Bob Knight, Charlie Munger, Warren Buffett, Michael Dell, Leon Festinger, Elon Musk, Jensen Huang, Ray Dalio, Todd Wagner, Steve Jobs, Ari Emanuel, Martin Woodall, Dr. Alex Oshmyansky, Wayne Winston, Donald Trump, MicroSolutions, Broadcast.com, Dallas Mavericks, Shark Tank, Cost Plus Drugs, Lotus 1-2-3, Why Men Rebel, Section 230, Anthropic Claude, Google Gemini, OpenAI ChatGPT, Apple, Amazon, Micron, Bitcoin, Tesla, McDonald's, Dairy Queen, Marley's, Indiana University, 60 Minutes, Cometeer Coffee, T-Mobile, Starlink, RCA, xAI Grok, Dot, Co-work, Nvidia, Meta, American Airlines, Yahoo, Los Angeles Lakers, Boston Celtics, Indiana Pacers, Pittsburgh Steelers, Pittsburgh Pirates, Jeopardy!
## Video description
Are you looking to break free from the trap of a 9 to 5 job in the modern economy? Billionaire entrepreneur Mark Cuban, as he shares the raw truths about artificial intelligence, sales, and the reality of building an empire.
Mark Cuban is a legendary American billionaire, investor, and former shark on ABC's Shark Tank, best known for transforming the Dallas Mavericks into NBA champions and building multi-million dollar tech enterprises like Broadcast.com and MicroSolutions. Today, he is fully dedicated to disrupting the American healthcare industry through his revolutionary online pharmacy, Cost Plus Drugs.
*In this episode, he explains:*
■ *The AI Illusion:* How artificial intelligence is simply a brute force pattern matcher that lacks true human intelligence, meaning the real edge belongs to humans who leverage it to “out prepare” and “out learn” the competition.
■ *The Power of Sales:* Why very successful business is fundamentally built on sales, and mastering the ability to handle objections and rejection guarantees you a job for life.
■ *The Danger of Quick Money:* How modern social media algorithms feed youth an illusion of instant wealth, holding back a generation that refuses to put in the grueling preparation required to master a skill.
■ *The Chemistry of Leadership:* How turning around a failing sports franchise or a business requires ruthless commitment to team culture, hiring slowly, firing fast, and replacing ego with collective alignment.
■ *The True Definition of Success:* Why true wealth is ultimately about controlling your own time and destiny rather than buying luxury items, and prioritizing family above all else remains the ultimate life achievement.
00:00:00 Intro
00:02:10 Why Being Adaptable Matters
00:03:03 My Upbringing
00:04:34 My First Business: Selling Garbage Bags at 12
00:06:12 How to Become a Great Salesperson
00:08:28 The Biggest Mistakes Young Entrepreneurs Make
00:11:11 What All Millionaires Have in Common
00:13:32 How I Transformed the Dallas Mavericks
00:18:42 Hate Your Job but Have Little Savings? Do This
00:22:09 The Sacrifices I Made to Become Successful
00:25:04 AI: Opportunity or Threat?
00:27:28 How Social Media Is Misleading Young Entrepreneurs
00:31:12 Are We in a Bubble?
00:33:04 Why Humans Will Always Be Smarter Than AI
00:37:38 Ads
00:39:56 How AI Agents Will Transform Work and Life
00:44:39 Why AI Isn’t Actually Smart (and Why I’m Not a Doomer)
00:48:59 Will AI Create a Utopia?
00:50:31 How AI Is Different From the Computer Revolution
00:51:29 Is AI Sending Us Into Debt?
00:57:21 Ads
00:58:40 How My Insecurities Drove My Success
01:01:16 What Becoming a Billionaire Changed in Me
01:03:17 Do You Have to Be Ruthless in Business?
01:05:03 The Cost of Fame and Losing Privacy
01:06:14 How Fame Impacted My Brothers
01:12:07 Should Everyone Be an Entrepreneur?
01:14:47 My Biggest Weaknesses
01:16:02 Why Hiring Is Everything
01:17:25 What the Mavericks Taught Me About Building Culture
01:23:34 How I Balance Family and Business
01:27:37 Cost Plus Drugs: My Take On The US Healthcare Industry
01:29:59 The Hardest Question I Wasn’t Asked
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库班警告科技界人工智能举债狂潮或引发系统性信贷泡沫
科技巨头举债超出其现金流以资助暴力破解式人工智能，在商业回报无法支撑激增的基础设施支出的情况下，恐有引发系统性债务危机的风险。
马克·库班剖析了他的核心商业哲学，阐述了为何精通一线销售、在学习能力上超越竞争对手以及培养延迟满足能力，远比追逐快钱或初创企业炒作更为可靠。他对当前的人工智能热潮进行了审慎评估，将大型语言模型定性为暴力破解模式匹配工具，认为其是在冒着助长危险的资本支出与债务泡沫的风险，而非展现了生物认知能力。回顾过往人生，库班讲述了将达拉斯独行侠队打造成NBA总冠军、在极高的知名度中立足，以及在个人危机中支持家庭的经历。最终，他解释了自己放弃体育俱乐部多数股权并退出《创智赢家》（Shark Tank）的决定，即优先陪伴子女，并将资源倾注于通过Cost Plus Drugs改革处方药定价。
马克·库班警告称，在没有相应近期运营收入匹配的情况下，企业大举举债资助庞大的人工智能基础设施，存在引发严重债务泡沫的风险，尤其是在美国国家利息支出每年已达到约1万亿美元的背景下。 (0:00)
库班认为大型语言模型并非真正的认知智能，而是暴力破解式的统计下一个词预测器，需要人类的洞察力来进行有效的提示、验证和应用。 (33:04)
Cost Plus Drugs正通过直接绕过药品福利管理机构，向自保雇主进行推介来实现业务扩张，这部分雇主覆盖了约67%享受雇主保险的美国人。 (86:54)
库班以43亿美元出售了达拉斯独行侠队的多数股权，并退出了《创智赢家》，以重新夺回对个人时间的支配权，并优先顾及家庭。 (13:32)
Detailed notes — zh
## Background
该视频由 YouTube 频道《The Diary Of A CEO》于 2026 年 10 月 26 日发布。节目简介指出，亿万富翁企业家兼投资人马克·库班（Mark Cuban）在访谈中揭示了关于人工智能、销售本质以及构建商业帝国的残酷真相，同时探讨了年轻一代摆脱朝九晚五困境的路径与他颠覆美国医疗行业的决心。
## TL;DR
在长达一个半小时的深度对话中，马克·库班系统阐述了他在科技与商业前沿的核心洞见，尖锐警告由 AI 基础设施狂热与巨额借贷可能引发的“深度债务泡沫”，并从底层原理剖析为何人类的现实适应力与提问能力永远优于统计学本质的 AI。他回顾了从 12 岁扫街推销垃圾袋、经历 MicroSolutions 与 Broadcast.com 的早期奋斗，到入主达拉斯独行侠队并夺冠的完整历程，强调销售本能、终身自学与“准备的意愿”才是创业立足的硬核护城河。此外，库班还坦诚分享了财富的真正本质是赢得时间的绝对掌控权，披露了他退出《创智赢家》与出售独行侠队背后对家庭陪伴的重新审视，以及他通过 Cost Plus Drugs 誓言彻底重塑美国医疗体系的晚年使命。
## Atmosphere & style
整场对话在宏观科技洞察的锐利交锋与极具温度的人性反思之间自由切换，节奏扎实而张力十足。史蒂文·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）以崇敬且充满探究欲的提问步步深入，而库班则展现出褪去亿万富翁光环后的率真与平实，既有谈及商业博弈时的澎湃胜负欲，又有剖析早年自卑与管理盲区时的毫不遮掩。当主持人念出弟弟布莱恩（Brian）回忆生死相伴的亲笔信、以及探讨父母离世与自身有限性时，现场空气骤然凝结，库班的数度哽咽与真情流露让整场访谈充满了穿透岁月的厚重感与共鸣。
## Bulletin
- [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=0s) Mark Cuban 警告称，科技巨头与超大规模云厂商（Hyperscalers）正大举举债购买电力和 GPU，借贷速度已远超变现能力，与美国持续攀升的国债赤字共振，可能引发深重的 AI 债务泡沫。
- [33:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=1984s) Cuban 明确反驳 AI 灭世论，指出大语言模型本质是高维统计预测与算力穷举（Brute Force），缺乏因果理解与内在道德，面对瞬息万变的物理现实时仍远逊于生物本能。
- [01:28:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=5284s) 针对医疗垄断，Cuban 创办的 Cost Plus Drugs 正绕开年营收数千亿美元的三大 PBM 巨头，直接向占美国 67% 的雇主自保企业推销透明加成药价，为患者每月省下多达 1000 美元药费。
- [13:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=812s) 在回顾体育与投资生涯时，Cuban 透露自己以约 2.85 亿美元收购、最终以约 43 亿美元出售达拉斯独行侠队多数股权，主因是联赛重心异化为地产资本博弈，以及希望腾出时间陪伴进入青春期的子女。
## Key takeaways
- [02:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=130s) 商业是一场永不停歇的竞技体育，唯有保持自学饥渴并持续精进技能，才不会被新技术浪潮淘汰。
- [06:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=372s) 销售是所有商业的基石与底层超能力，其本质绝非忽悠或强推，而是利他地解决客户痛点与省钱省时。
- [08:28](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=508s) 年轻创业者常陷入盲目融资与冲高销售额的误区，健康的企业必须优先确保每个月的实际盈利能力与现金流。
- [11:11](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=671s) 通往百万财富的法则不是空谈“追随激情”，而是找到一件具体的事投入时间做到顶尖，并将其商业化。
- [18:42](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=1122s) 面对朝九晚五的困境，初入职场者应戒除眼高手低的心态，诚实客观看待自身不足，在既有岗位上积累无可替代的声誉。
- [22:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=1329s) 颠覆性新技术爆发时全行业都处在同一起跑线上，通过推迟即时满足并彻夜自学，就能建立独占的专业壁垒。
- [27:28](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=1648s) 社交媒体算法充斥着投机取巧的虚假暴富骗局，真正具备护城河的商业优势需要耐得住枯燥的长周期复利与准备。
- [31:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=1872s) 现代资本市场高度模因化脱离了内在现金流折现，投资者应保持耐心储备现金，真正的超额收益往往诞生于泡沫破裂后的废墟中。
- [34:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=2066s) AI 无法替代真实世界中具有直觉与具身感知的生命，未来其核心壁垒在于人类如何跨模型提出深刻问题并落地执行。
- [39:56](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=2396s) 商业场景中无需低效管理，通过部署专门的 AI Agent 能够以极低成本自动化监控竞对、提取公开记录并重塑人力预算分配。
- [46:56](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=2816s) 当前 AI 依靠堆砌算力与电力穷举漏洞属于“书呆子”式的死记硬背，真正的智能必须能够在极低资源下主动发现并解决问题。
- [01:00:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=3608s) 财富的终极价值在于获得对个人时间的完全掌控权，而非炫耀性消费，金钱无法改变一个人的内在幸福感与人品本质。
- [01:03:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=3797s) 经商完全无需冷酷无情或暴怒失控，与人为善、心平气和地解决问题远比做一个混蛋能走得更长远。
- [01:05:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=3903s) 成名带来的审视与隐私代价远超拥有财富本身，独特的名声往往会成为家人难以承受的无形枷锁。
- [01:12:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=4327s) 创业并非适合所有人，成为老板往往意味着放弃对个人生活的完全掌控，要为客户诉求与员工家庭背负巨大责任。
- [01:14:47](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=4487s) 优秀的企业家必须清醒认知自身弱点并寻找互补合伙人，在招聘中坚决践行“慢招快辞”，将团队文化置于单纯的才华之上。
- [01:21:19](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=4879s) 在独行侠队率先引入 NBA 首位全职数据分析师并配备专人教练，开创了用数据分析结合实战目测评估综合胜率贡献的先河。
- [01:23:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=5015s) 面对父母离世与人生倒计时，家庭与父职始终凌驾于一切商业名利之上，多陪伴子女远比追求下一个商业里程碑更重要。
## Detailed walkthrough
### [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=0s) 预告片段：AI债务危机、商业本能与人生转折
访谈以一段极具冲击力的快剪作为开场。Mark Cuban 直截了当地揭穿了当下对人工智能的过度神化：“AI is not smart. AI doesn't know the consequences of its actions. It doesn't have inherent ethics.” 他进一步对当前的 AI 投资热潮提出尖锐警告：科技企业为了维持庞大的算力和数据中心运转，不断大肆借贷并疯狂烧钱，但它们的负债速度已经远远超过了赚钱能力，这极有可能将全球推入一场深重的“债务泡沫（debt bubble）”。当主持人 Steven Bartlett 追问他是否认为市场正处于泡沫之中时，Cuban 毫不犹豫地给出了肯定回答。
镜头随即切入 Cuban 漫长创业历程的核心议题：商业竞争的残酷性与销售的终极力量。Cuban 回忆起自己无论身处什么年龄段，在商业领域总是能快人一步。从 12 岁走街串巷挨家挨户推销垃圾袋开始，他就领悟到销售是所有商业成功的基石——“如果你能挨家挨户敲门把东西卖出去，你就能做成任何事”。在《创智赢家》（Shark Tank）节目中，创业者走上台介绍项目的那一刻，他脑中就已经精准推演出了产品的销售逻辑。此外，片花还闪回了 Cuban 反思自己早年粗暴管理风格的片段（承认自己曾是个“大混蛋”，后来明白善待他人远比大喊大叫更管用），谈及他近年决定离开《创智赢家》以及出售达拉斯独行侠队（Dallas Mavericks）控股权的真实考量，并在看到弟弟 Brian 写的亲笔信时动情落泪。
在访谈正文开启前，主持人 Steven Bartlett 插入了一段例行的频道订阅呼吁。他分享了一组后台真实统计数据：当前正在收看本期节目的观众中，大约有 58% 的人尚未点击订阅。Steven 诚恳地请求观众花几秒钟点击免费订阅，并指出观众的订阅支持是节目组持续加大嘉宾阵容与制作投入的唯一源动力。
---
### [02:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=130s) 商业即竞技体育：终身学习与适应力的底层逻辑
访谈正式开始，Steven 指出当今世界在商业、科技尤其是 AI 领域正在经历剧烈震荡，而 Cuban 身上最令他钦佩的特质，就是无论取得了多么巨大的财富和地位，他在历次科技浪潮中（从加密货币到 AI 爆发）始终保持着主动“重返校园”般的自学饥渴感。面对 Steven 关于“此时此刻你脑子里在想什么”的提问，Cuban 将商业环境与他钟爱的竞技体育做了深度类比。
Cuban 强调，商场如战场，更如高强度的职业体育联赛；竞争对手永远不会停下脚步，一旦你固步自封、停止磨砺技巧，淘汰就会立刻发生。“To me, business is like a sport. And if you don't keep on getting better and improving your game, you're not going to be able to compete.” 他告诫所有从事技术和媒体领域的从业者，必须时刻走在行业曲线的最前端，否则在某个不起眼的角落，随时都会冒出一个十几岁的高中生用新技术将你彻底击溃。Cuban 笑着表示，他的终极驱动力非常简单而纯粹：他永远只想做那个在球场上把对手打得落花流水的人，而不是被动挨打的那一方。
---
### [03:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=183s) 匹兹堡蓝领家庭的烙印：父亲的言传身教
探寻 Mark Cuban 商业野心的源头，必须回到他在宾夕法尼亚州匹兹堡梅多拉克（Meadowlark）街区的成长岁月。Steven 拿出泛黄的老照片，Cuban 看着照片中年轻的父母、祖父母以及二弟 Brian，神情充满怀念。Cuban 坦言自己成长于一个极度平凡但充满温暖的纯正蓝领家庭：父亲从事汽车内饰装潢（upholstery）工作，母亲则打各种零工补贴家用；母亲生下他时年仅 20 岁。
Cuban 的父亲一生辛勤操劳，年收入从未超过 40,000 美元。每天早晨在孩子们出门上学之前，父亲就已经动身赶往工厂。在 Cuban 念六年级时，父亲在车间拉拔装潢订书钉时发生意外，崩裂的金属钉刺伤了一只眼睛导致失明，但他并未因此消沉，依然像一台不知疲倦的研磨机一样日夜苦干。父亲给 Cuban 树立的最宝贵榜样是极致的社交魅力与人际连接能力——无论走到哪里，父亲总能迅速结交新朋友，把陌生人变成推心置腹的伙伴。父亲常挂在嘴边的两句朴素哲理深深烙印在 Cuban 心中：“你所生活的世界，并非你出生时的那个既定世界”；以及“今天是你余生中最年轻的一天”。正是这种对改变现状的开放心态和对一切折腾的无条件支持，为 Cuban 日后的冒险奠定了心理底色。
---
### [04:34](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=274s) 少年倒爷：从棒球卡打包到上门推销垃圾袋
谈到儿时梦想，Cuban 笑着透露自己最初其实渴望成为一名职业棒球运动员，球技虽过得去，但显然达不到职业门槛，于是他的商业天赋迅速显露。大约九、十岁时，Cuban 开启了自己的第一次“套利交易”：他用零花钱在当地药房整包买进棒球卡，然后用彩色报纸漫画拆分重装成自制盲盒，以一张卡 25 美分的成本包装后卖 50 美分，并在包装上打出绝佳的销售噱头——“百分之百保底抽中匹兹堡海盗队球星罗伯托·克莱门特（Roberto Clemente）或威利·斯塔格尔（Willie Stargell）”。通过循环倒卖，他第一次体会到了现金流滚雪球的快感。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: Cuban Early Hustles Flowchart
accDescr: 展现 Mark Cuban 少年时期的两次商业套利与推销模式演进
subgraph Phase1["9-10岁：棒球卡盲盒套利"]
A["药房低价批发棒球卡"] --> B["报纸漫画自制包装"]
B --> C["保底球星概念营销以50美分溢价售出"]
end
subgraph Phase2["12岁：敲门推销垃圾袋"]
D["索要球鞋遭父亲拒绝：有工作才能买"] --> E["醉酒牌友供货：每盒3美元"]
E --> F["扫街敲门解决需求：每盒6美元翻倍卖"]
end
Phase1 --> Phase2
```
12 岁那年，Cuban 迎来了一次具有决定性意义的商业启蒙。当时父亲正和牌友们在家里打轮流局扑克，Cuban 溜进屋拿甜甜圈，顺便向父亲央求一双昂贵的新篮球鞋。父亲低头扫了一眼他的旧鞋说：“这双还能穿。等你有了工作，爱买什么买什么。” Cuban 委屈地抗议自己只有 12 岁，哪来的工作？这时，牌桌上一位喝得有些微醺的牌友搭话解围，表示自己手里有一批垃圾袋，可以按每盒 3 美元批发给 Cuban，让他拿到社区按 6 美元出售。Cuban 毫不怯场，抱起箱子在街坊四邻挨家挨户敲门，开场白直奔主题：“嗨，我是邻居 Mark，你们家用垃圾袋吗？” 这句几乎无法被拒绝的问话让他赚得盆满钵满。Cuban 直言，这次扫街推销对他一生的塑造超过了任何其他经历。
---
### [06:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=372s) 销售的最高境界：直面拒绝与创造利他价值
当 Steven 分享自己年轻时在呼叫中心做电话销售（推销门窗、双层玻璃及阳光房）的经历时，两人就“销售是创业者的底层超能力”达成了强烈共鸣。Cuban 阐述道，无论是上门直销还是电话外呼，销售本质上是对抗挫折和心智敏捷度的终极训练——“每一次被拒绝（no），都让你离‘成交（yes）’更近了一步”。学会如何快速消化客户的拒绝、如何拆解疑虑并在几秒钟内给出针对性回应，会让大脑运转得极其飞快；一旦彻底掌握了销售技能，在这个世界上就永远不必担心失业。
Cuban 指出，许多初创企业之所以惨败，根源在于创始人体会不到销售的核心本质。在他看来，优秀的销售绝非强行推销或忽悠客户做出违背自身利益的决定，真正的销售是纯粹的“利他（helping them）”：
- **极致熟悉产品与解决痛点**：必须对产品有发自内心的狂热信念，坚信向对方介绍产品就是在帮他们省时间、省金钱或改善生活。
- **重构价值逻辑**：例如推销隔热节能窗户时，优秀的销售员不会干巴巴地介绍材质，而是切中客户的实际痛点——“你的窗户有裂痕、采光差，更严重的是导致每月电费账单严重超标；换上新窗户每月只需 17 美元分期，省下的电费甚至能完全抵消开支”。
- **商业洞察与判断力**：这正是 Cuban 在《创智赢家》中能够一眼看穿商业模式可行性的秘密武器——只要听完产品介绍，脑海中就能立即推演得出这件商品到底“能怎么卖出去”或者“根本卖不动”。
### [08:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=506s) 年轻创业者的最大误区：融资崇拜与盲目追赶扎克伯格
访谈中，主持人 Steven Bartlett 提到，当代大众总能听到诸如 Mark Zuckerberg 那样凭借第一个科技点子就在 25 岁左右成为超级富豪的神话。这导致很多到了 32 岁左右的年轻人产生强烈的焦虑，觉得自己已经“错失良机”。Steven 提起 Mark Cuban 的起步经历，指出 Cuban 是在三十一二岁时才卖掉第一家公司，据称卖了 200 万美元。Cuban 随即澄清纠正了这个数字：那家公司当时是以 500 万美元出售的，扣除各种成本后自己净赚了 200 万美元。
面对现代年轻人在牺牲、时间与耐心方面的浮躁心态，Cuban 直言自己年轻时也同样急不可耐，但关键在于个人的处境。他创立 MicroSolutions 时之所以毫无包袱，是因为当时被上一份工作解雇、身无分文且“无所失去”。当时他和另外五个小伙子挤在一间三居室的公寓里，甚至连独立的卧室都没有。创业初期，他的目标非常切合实际且步步为营：能撑过 1 个月就是胜利，随后是 3 个月、6 个月、9 个月；当账面上积累了 15,000 美元的应收账款时，他意识到自己终于有希望搬出那个逼仄混乱的住所了。
Cuban 强调，现代年轻人最大的误区有两个：一是以为创业就非得跑去硅谷融资；二是误以为融了资之后，疯狂冲高销售额就是终极目标，却完全忽视了**盈利能力（profitability）**。以 MicroSolutions 为例，在其存在的整整 8 年间，每个月都保持盈利。Cuban 确保销售额足以覆盖支出，严格控制成本，以此维持企业生存并向前迈进。他指出，大众往往只盯着 Zuckerberg 或 Sam Altman 这类过早收获数十亿身家的个例，却忽略了绝大多数成功者并非百亿富豪，而是那些赚到 500 万、1000 万、2500 万甚至上亿美元的人。走向这一阶层并非高不可攀的硅谷神话，而是人人皆可触及的美国梦，成败的核心在于当下的积累与所掌握的技能。
> “For MicroSolutions, our entire 8-year existence, we were profitable every single month.” —— Mark Cuban
- **公司出售金额**：MicroSolutions 以 500 万美元售出，Cuban 个人净得 200 万美元。
- **居住状况**：创业初期 6 个人挤在一间三居室，Cuban 甚至没有自己的独立卧室。
- **生存节奏**：将存活周期拆解为 1 个月、3 个月、6 个月、9 个月，并盯紧现金流（应收账款达 15,000 美元即为重要转折）。
- **两大典型误区**：认为创业必须融资；认为冲高销售额优于维持盈利。
---
### [11:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=670s) 成为百万富翁的底层法则：聚焦长板与时间的流向
谈及跨行业通用的财富法则，Steven 询问成为百万或千万富翁是否有固定的底层逻辑。Cuban 明确指出，想要赚到百万财富，核心在于**在某件事上做到极度擅长**，然后探索如何将这项能力商业化。这一特长可以是销售、编程、动手修理、绘画或内容创作，但如果自身缺乏硬核长板，创立任何公司都无法带来真正的财富。
Cuban 特别抨击了缺乏专注的创业者。他在《创智赢家》（Shark Tank）内外常遇到有人宣称自己手握三个点子、以为这能提高成功率，或者直接问他“我想创业，该干哪行”。对于这种毫无头绪的提问，Cuban 的回应是：必须找到一件事情并做到极致。一旦成为行业顶尖，无论是在既有公司里作为不可替代的核心人才让对手敬畏，还是基于这项极致技能自立门户，机会的大门都会彻底敞开。
在被问及一个人最可能在哪方面脱颖而出时，Cuban 反驳了流行的“追随激情（passion）”论调。他自嘲年轻时也狂热地想成为职业棒球或篮球运动员，但这种激情对实际成功毫无帮助。真正的能力长板取决于**时间的流向**：你在哪里投入时间，就会在那里发现自己喜欢的事情；如果该领域具备商业转化潜力，随着时间投入，技术会不断精进。当发现自己在专业上逐渐超越身边同行时，自信心便会同步攀升，进而促使自己渴望吸收更多知识以争夺绝对第一，这种正向循环才是企业生根发芽、规模不设上限的根本动力。
> “No, you've got to find one thing and be great at it. Cuz once you're great at something, doors open up wide.” —— Mark Cuban
---
### [13:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=812s) 达拉斯独行侠的蜕变：从纯粹热爱到百亿美元估值的异化
当 Steven 试图将 Cuban 的成功归结为具有 10 到 20 年维度的“长线主义（long-termism）”决策护城河时，Cuban 坦率地否认了这种宏大叙事。回顾 2000 年收购达拉斯小牛队（现达拉斯独行侠队）的初衷，他表示自己当时只是个狂热的篮球迷（basketball junkie），恰好凭借之前的创业套现积累了巨额财富。作为季票持有者的他在看完一场比赛后萌生了买下球队的念头，仅仅觉得“这会很有趣”，能天天和 Dirk Nowitzki、Steve Nash 以及 Michael Finley 等球星一起打球投篮。
Cuban 强调，当时他从未将球队当成一桩长期商业投资，而是视其为一项**智力挑战（intellectual challenge）**：这支队伍在过去的十年里曾被票选为全美表现最差的职业体育俱乐部，他想验证自己能否彻底扭转局面，打造一支常胜之师。在这个过程中，强烈的胜负欲让他承担了巨大心理压力，每输掉一场比赛甚至需要整整两天才能抚平情绪。随着时间推移，他为球队引入了先进的数据分析系统、前沿运动科技，大幅改善了球员保障和运营体系，球队成绩斐然，客观上也演变成了一笔极为成功的商业资产。
然而，在最终决定出售球队前夕，整个 NBA 的底层逻辑发生了偏移。Cuban 感到联赛重心从纯粹的篮球竞技退化成了资本估值竞赛，业内讨论的焦点不再是如何把球赛办得更精彩，而是球队市值能飙升到多高。想要在新的生态里竞争，球队老板被迫要精通商业地产等与篮球本身毫无关联的运作。这种异化带来了极大的无谓内耗，再加上自己有了孩子后生活重心的转变，Cuban 最终选择套现离场。
在谈话结尾，Cuban 给出了自己对成功的衡量标准：并非资产规模，而是**每天早晨醒来时脸上带着微笑，对即将展开的一天充满期待与兴奋**。他直言这对大多数被日常琐事和繁重工作压得喘不过气的人来说极其不易，但做自己热爱的事正是实现这一状态的唯一解法。
> “Waking up in the morning with a smile on your face, excited about the day.” —— Mark Cuban
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: Mark Cuban's Ownership Arc with the Mavericks
accDescr: A flow showing the transition from a passionate purchase to performance turnaround and eventual sale driven by industry valuation changes.
subgraph Passion_Phase ["兴趣驱动阶段"]
A["狂热篮球爱好者 / 季票持有者"] --> B["耗资 2.85 亿美元收购达拉斯独行侠"]
B --> C["定位为智力挑战：挽救十年垫底垫底球队"]
end
subgraph Transformation_Phase ["体系革新阶段"]
C --> D["引入前沿数据分析与科技"]
D --> E["重塑球队文化与竞技表现"]
end
subgraph Valuation_Exit_Phase ["资本异化与退出"]
E --> F["联赛重心转向球队估值与商业地产运作"]
F --> G["竞技纯粹性丧失，内耗加剧"]
G --> H["以 43 亿美元高估值出售控股权"]
end
```
- **收购价格**：以约 2.85 亿美元购入达拉斯独行侠队。
- **出售价格**：最终以约 43 亿美元出售。
- **历史包袱**：收购前，独行侠曾被票选为上一个十年全美表现最差的职业体育俱乐部。
- **核心球星**：接手初期围绕 Dirk Nowitzki、Steve Nash、Michael Finley 等球员展开运作。
### [17:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=1023s) 达拉斯独行侠夺冠的喜悦与“索然无味”
体育产业与其他商业形态有着本质的不同。马克·库班（Mark Cuban）指出，如果你在谷歌（Google）这样的科技巨头工作，哪怕公司创下历史最佳季度业绩，或者苹果（Apple）成为全球市值最高的企业，现实中也绝不会有人为此走上街头举行盛大游行。但竞技体育不同，一旦球队赢得总冠军，整座城市都会陷入狂欢，数十万乃至上百万人会在华氏100度（约37.8摄氏度）的高温酷暑中涌向市中心，对着巡游大巴上的球员和工作人员竭力嘶吼。这种极具感染力的凝聚力，正是体育和达拉斯独行侠（Dallas Mavericks）独一无二的魅力所在。
谈及2011年独行侠击败拥有勒布朗·詹姆斯（LeBron James）的热火队夺冠那一刻，库班坦言，在商业层面上这无疑是他人生中最巅峰的日子之一，但其内心深处的感受却充满了奇特的反高潮（anti-climactic）。在经历过太多自以为胜券在握却惨遭翻盘的比赛后，即便第四节独行侠在比赛仅剩30秒时领先10分，当对手命中一记三分球时，库班依然紧张得对自己暗骂。终场哨响的那一刻，他原本以为会像电影演的那样云开雾散、阳光普照，但当激动的嘶喊与拥抱渐渐平息后，他脑海中浮现的第一个念头竟然是：“这太棒了，但我接下来该干嘛？”
真正让这次夺冠变得意义非凡的，并不是库班个人的成就感，而是整座达拉斯城市的反响。随后的一段时间里，库班带着奥布莱恩冠军奖杯走遍了各个角落——学校、酒吧、餐馆，以及自己孩子的活动现场。每到一个地方，看到普通市民和孩子们眼中瞬间绽放的光芒，那种全城共享的纯粹快乐深深打动了他。正如马克·库班所说：“And it wasn't so much how I felt and hugging all the guys and hugging everybody, but it was how the city felt and that's what really made it special when I would take the trophy to schools, I would take it to bars, I would take it to restaurants, I would take it to my kids' events, whatever it was and to see their eyes light up.”
---
### [18:42](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=1122s) 困在朝九晚五与底层的出路：诚实面对自己与积累声誉
针对许多存款只有一千美元、深感被困在朝九晚五甚至处于月光状态的年轻人，库班给出了极其务实甚至反直觉的建议。他告诫刚刚走出校门的大学毕业生，不要一味去追寻“最好”或“完美”的工作，因为那类工作不仅稀缺，而且门槛极高；正确的做法是“先拿到一份工作，然后努力把它做到极致”。在此过程中，最关键也最困难的一点在于保持自我诚实（self-awareness）。现实中几乎没有人会看着自己的工作表现承认“我干得很烂”，大家往往自欺欺人地认为自己才华横溢、只是怀才不遇。想要突破瓶颈，就必须跳出自我的虚荣，倾听周围人的客观评价。
库班以快餐店为例说明，哪怕最初是在麦当劳（McDonald's）或冰雪皇后（Dairy Queen）做最底层的工作，只要你摸清晋升逻辑并不断向上走，就能向未来的雇主证明自己的能力。史蒂文·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）补充道，杰夫·贝索斯（Jeff Bezos）早年也曾在麦当劳打工，并在此过程中领悟了客户至上的服务意识。雇主最看重的是前雇主能给出极高评价：“这位员工极其宝贵，他要离职我们感到非常遗憾，我们曾极力挽留他。”只要能做到这一点，哪怕两到三年时间，人生的转机就会出现，可惜大多数人总是深陷在抱怨工作的怨念中，无法付诸行动。
库班还分享了自己在高中时期阅读《人们为什么反叛》（*Why Men Rebel*）一书的感悟：大多数人都有高远的志向，但当现实处境远远落后于野心时，若无法接纳这种落差，就会走向愤怒、反叛甚至对抗社会的极端。人必须具备自我觉察的能力，允许自己感到沮丧，但绝不能让沮丧吞噬生活。库班回忆起自己青少年时期的叛逆与自嘲经历——16岁时他比现在矮4英寸、重25磅，因为骑自行车发生事故撞断了门牙，由于家里贫困装不起昂贵的烤瓷牙，他只能戴着最廉价的不锈钢金属牙冠，阳光下一笑就会反光，常常引来同伴的取笑，但他学会了坦然面对并专注于寻找自己的前行之路。针对身处困境的年轻人，马克·库班强调：
> “You have to be at least self-aware a little bit to understand that it's okay to be frustrated, but you can't let it overtake your life.”
---
### [22:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=1329s) 创业初期的牺牲：延迟满足与争当软件领域的“第二名”
谈及建立第一家成功企业 MicroSolutions 之前所付出的代价，库班将其定义为“推迟即时满足（deferring immediate gratification）”，而非单纯意义上的牺牲。刚到达拉斯时，他与5位室友合租在一套狭窄破旧的公寓里，连床都买不起，只能睡在肮脏的地板上。为了维持生计，他白天在一家软件零售店上班，晚上去酒吧兼职当调酒师。原本以为软件店的工作是步入正轨的开端，但仅仅9个月后他就被解雇了——起因是他为了拿到一笔1500美元的销售佣金以便搬出合租公寓，违背了老板要求留在店内看店的命令，擅自去客户那里取支票。他原本以为把支票带回店里能证明自己的业绩，结果老板当场将他开除。
这次被炒让库班认清了一个现实：自己并不适合成为一名按部就班的员工，于是他决定创办 MicroSolutions。在个人电脑（PC）革命刚刚兴起的年代，面对诸如 Lotus 1-2-3 等全新的软件，市场上没有人真正了解它们的技术全貌。库班敏锐地意识到，在软件知识这条赛道上，除了软件的原始开发者之外，全世界的所有人其实都在同一起跑线上并列第二名。如果他愿意付出远超常人的努力，把厚厚的操作手册翻烂，整夜通宵泡在店里或把笨重的电脑搬回破公寓自学，他就能甩开其他所有人，成为那个“独占的第二名”，从而在竞争中建立起无可匹敌的专业壁垒。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 软件知识壁垒建立逻辑
accDescr: 展示马克·库班如何通过极速自学，从与大众并列第二晋升为独占第二名并形成商业壁垒
subgraph Origin["知识层级现状"]
A["软件创作者 / 开发者\n（认知第一名）"]
B["全行业普通从业者与竞争对手\n（知识匮乏，并列第二名）"]
end
subgraph Action["极限付出与推迟满足"]
C["彻夜通读技术手册\n搬电脑回破公寓反复自学实操"]
end
subgraph Outcome["建立绝对壁垒"]
D["独占第二名（Tied for Second Alone）\n仅次于原始作者，彻底超越其余竞争者"]
E["MicroSolutions 核心服务溢价与壁垒"]
end
A -.->|"遥不可及"| B
B -->|"投入海量自学时间"| C
C --> D
D --> E
```
在回忆当年的自学狠劲时，马克·库班总结道：“In my mind, when it came to software, there was only going to be one person who understood any given software better than me, and that would be the person who wrote it. And that if I busted my ass, I was tied for second, right?”
- **居住与生活境况**：5人合租一套破旧公寓，没有床垫，直接睡在地毯地板上。
- **解雇导火索**：为了争取一笔价值1500美元的软件佣金去取支票，擅离岗位，被老板当场开除。
- **竞争策略**：在 PC 时代早期通过通宵自学最新软件（如 Lotus 1-2-3），以信息和技能的不对称性形成 MicroSolutions 的早期护城河。
---
### [25:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=1504s) AI 时代的生产力跃迁与信息平权
库班指出，当年在 PC 时代通过拼命自学争夺“第二名”的逻辑，完全适用于当下的 AI 革命。每当一个崭新的 AI 模型、智能体或前沿工具发布时，除了背后的研发团队，全球其他用户都处在同一起跑线上。谁能以最快的速度弄懂它的原理、掌握它的提示工程与应用场景，谁就能在所属行业中建立起巨大优势。在涉足科技领域数十年的库班看来，当前 AI 带来的变革规模前所未有，其深远程度远非以往单一技术的迭代可比。
对于现代职场人和创业者而言，AI 不仅是一个极具威力的生产力工具——例如能在一瞬间整理并提炼出访谈对象或商业伙伴的所有背景信息——它更是一场彻底的信息平权运动（democratizer of information）。只要善加利用，AI 能让任何有求知欲的人平等的获取全人类的图书馆、书籍、演讲和专业知识，学习的门槛被彻底击碎。谈及 AI 的宏观影响，马克·库班断言：“I've been in the tech business a long time. This dwarfs everything else in aggregate. This is so much bigger.”
### [25:57](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=1557s) 面对颠覆性技术的态度：认知失调与准备的意愿
技术变革带来所谓的“创造性破坏”（Creative Destruction），在推倒旧模式的同时，也会击碎许多人的职业身份、学位乃至生计。这种颠覆在全世界范围内引发了广泛的心理不适。主持人引用心理学家莱昂·费斯廷格（Leon Festinger）提出的“认知失调”（Cognitive Dissonance）来解释这一现象：当现实强烈冲击或动摇人们固有的认知体系时，人会本能地感到痛苦与抗拒。为了逃避这种失调，许多人选择像鸵鸟一样把头埋进沙子里，否认现实，心存侥幸地认为变革不会波及自己。
Mark Cuban 明确反驳了这种逃避态度，他指出：“Like for me with AI, I see it as an opportunity. Wherever there's change, there's opportunity.” 对他而言，每一次剧变都是超车的契机。大部分人陷入认知失调、回避现实，恰恰为少数主动出击的人扫清了竞争对手。Cuban 回忆起自己在印第安纳大学读书时，在《60分钟》（60 Minutes）节目中听到传奇篮球教练鲍勃·奈特（Bob Knight）说的一句话，那句话彻底改变了他的思维模式：“Everybody's got the will to win. But it's only those with the will to prepare that actually do win.” 赢得胜利的想法人皆有之，但真正决定胜负的，是日复一日枯燥乏味的准备过程。
- 心理学概念：莱昂·费斯廷格提出的“认知失调”，描述了新现实威胁固有认知时个体的抗拒与逃避心理。
- 关键格言：印第安纳大学传奇教练鲍勃·奈特的警句成了 Cuban 一生的行动准则——胜负的本质不在于“想赢”，而在于“愿意做准备”。
- 绝大多数人在面临范式转变时缺乏直面现实的意愿，这为愿意深入学习并做足准备的人创造了非对称的竞争优势。
---
### [27:28](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=1648s) 社交媒体算法的陷阱与长期主义的复兴
现实中最残酷的问题在于：没有人能直接“看到”别人背后的枯燥准备。公众没有机会目睹创业早期的 Mark Cuban 把软件从商店搬回简陋的展示公寓、通宵啃读技术手册；大家能看到的只有光鲜亮丽的胜利果实，比如坐在双层巴士上巡游、高举 NBA 总冠军奖杯的瞬间。这种视觉盲区导致了严重的“成功幻象”。社交媒体平台进一步放大了这种扭曲。Cuban 谈到自己刚满 17 岁的儿子时表示非常无奈：推荐算法会根据用户的每次点击疯狂投喂同类内容，而算法塞给他儿子的全都是“快速暴富”（Get-rich-quick）的虚妄项目，诸如无货源一件代发（Drop shipping）、倒卖限量球鞋，甚至是用高压水枪清洗人行道赚钱。
面对这些投机取巧的商业点子，Cuban 的判断非常直白：如果这些项目真能稳定赚大钱，发布者绝不可能公开叫卖教程，而是会悄悄自己做；在股市上拥有真正交易优势的人，永远只会闷声利用这一优势，绝不会拿出来兜售。Cuban 批评了美国《通信规范法》第 230 条（Section 230）对互联网平台算法的免责保护，认为这种机制在很大程度上阻碍了年轻一代的成长。因为枯燥的准备、挑灯夜读的技术积累在 Instagram 或 TikTok 上换不来点赞和播放量，取而代之的是 10 秒短视频对资本主义、社会主义或财富积累的极端简化与扭曲。对此，逆向破局的关键在于践行查理·芒格（Charlie Munger）所提倡的延迟满足（Delayed gratification）与复利思维，给自己设定 10 年的时间跨度去精进专业技能，而不是幻想明年就暴富。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 社交媒体即时反馈与长期主义复利路径对比
accDescr: 对比了社交媒体算法诱导的短视投机模式与深耕技能的长期复利模式
subgraph S1["社交媒体幻象（即时满足）"]
A["算法推送暴富内容<br/>(一件代发/炒鞋/水枪清洗)"] --> B["忽视幕后枯燥准备<br/>(缺乏技能积累)"]
B --> C["追求短期暴利<br/>(缺乏门槛与护城河)"]
end
subgraph S2["长期复利路径（延迟满足）"]
D["直面现实变革<br/>(AI与新技术浪潮)"] --> E["极度扎实的幕后准备<br/>(精读手册/打磨销售与技能)"]
E --> F["经历长周期复利<br/>(耐得住熊市与枯燥)"]
end
C -.->|"注定落空"| G["泡沫破灭与焦虑"]
F -->|"核心护城河"| H["真实财富与掌控力"]
```
- 算法强化偏差：每个人的信息流都被个性化算法割裂，反复强化“轻松暴富”的错觉。
- 商业真理验证法：凡是在网上大肆贩卖盈利策略或交易“独门绝技”的人，本质上都是因为该策略无法产生超额收益；真正有效的阿尔法收益绝不会被公开售卖。
- 延迟满足与复利：正如沃伦·巴菲特（Warren Buffett）与查理·芒格的实践，顶尖投资者甚至可以连续数年不出手，保留充裕现金，专等市场大跌与周期逆转时重拳出击。
---
### [31:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=1872s) 模因化市场与当前的人工智能资产泡沫
在谈到当前火热的资本市场时，Cuban 明确承认我们正处于泡沫之中，但其性质与 2000 年至 2001 年的互联网泡沫（Dot-com bubble）有着本质不同。如今的资本市场已经高度“模因化”（Meme-ified）：不仅比特币是模因资产，就连美光（Micron）、谷歌（Google）、苹果（Apple）这样的大盘蓝筹股，在交易逻辑上也呈现出模因股的特征。Cuban 尖锐地指出了这一市场机制的异化：“We're trading them like baseball cards. You know, there's no intrinsic value to this. It's just perceived value and what you think somebody else will pay for it.”
在当下的交易生态中，一家公司的财报每股收益可能仅仅比预期少了一美分或超出一美分，其股价就能瞬间暴跌 18%。企业未来的净现值（NPV）和现金流折现并没有在几秒钟内缩水 18%，但极端追求情绪驱动的高频买卖使股票脱离了基本面，变成纯粹受情绪和博弈驱动的交易筹码。尽管各类与 AI 相关的概念股在巨额债务杠杆推动下一路冲天，Cuban 依然奉劝普通投资者保持耐心、手中留存现金。他回顾自己在 COVID-19 恐慌爆发时入场疯狂扫货并斩获巨额收益的经历，强调真正的财富往往是在泡沫破裂后的废墟与熊市中铸就的。历史上的戴尔（Dell）和亚马逊（Amazon）在互联网泡沫破裂时都曾遭遇股价雪崩，亚马逊甚至长期深陷巨亏泥潭并饱受嘲弄，但真正活下来的伟大企业最终成长为数万亿美元市值的庞然大物。尽管 Anthropic 和 OpenAI 之间谁能成为最终的绝对赢家尚未可知，但盲目追高的狂热必将面临周期的清算。
- 资产定价异化：现代股票已不再单纯基于未来现金流折现（DCF）进行理性定价，而是受即时消息冲击和跟风买卖驱动，被当作球星卡一样投机倒卖。
- 情绪放大波动：财报数据与市场预期的微小偏差往往引发高达两位数百分比的过度反应，证明市场流动性具有极强的投机倾向。
- 现金为王与耐力：等待市场周期反转往往比在狂热期盲目入场更能创造财富，历史上的伟大赢家都是穿越过泡沫崩塌的幸存者。
---
### [33:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=1984s) 为什么人类总能胜过 AI：统计概率与真实世界的鸿沟
针对“AI 是否会是终结一切的最后技术”这一流行论调，Cuban 提出了鲜明反驳，坚定认为人类永远会比 AI 更聪明。他从大语言模型（LLM）的底层技术架构剖析了这一论断的核心原因：无论 OpenAI 的 ChatGPT、Anthropic 的 Claude 还是 Google 的 Gemini，只要模型训练完成并发布的瞬间，它就立刻过时了。人类此刻正在展开的深邃交流和灵感碰撞，在世界任何一个现存模型的权重矩阵中都不复存在。Cuban 直言：“AI is not smart. It just knows how to use statistics basically to predict the next word. It's predictive. It's not deterministic.”
为了说明 AI 在真实世界中的致命局限，Cuban 展开了具体的逻辑对比：
| 维度 | 人工智能系统（AI） | 人类与真实生命机制 |
|:--- |:--- |:--- |
| **工作原理** | 基于海量语料统计的概率计算，本质是“预测下一个词”（Next-token prediction） | 具备逻辑推演、语境穿透与意图理解能力 |
| **输出确定性** | 非确定性；向不同模型提相同问题，或微调同一提示词，都会产生截然不同的答案 | 面对客观逻辑与物理事实具备稳定的判断力和一致性 |
| **后果认知与道德** | 完全无法理解自身输出结果在物理世界或社会伦理中的实际后果，毫无固有道德观 | 拥有道德同理心，对自身行为的因果链条承担责任与后果 |
| **现实交互与即时反应** | 依赖数据输入与推理计算，存在不可避免的处理延迟（Latency） | 具备高度敏锐的具身感知与瞬间自适应本能 |
Cuban 打了一个极其生动形象的比方：如果自己双目失明站在一个车流穿梭、瞬息万变的四向十字路口，一边是一部装有全球最顶级 AI 视觉大模型和摄像头的智能手机，另一边是一只站在身旁的导盲犬，他会毫不犹豫地选择把生命托付给导盲犬，让导盲犬带自己过马路。因为在现实物理世界中，环境状况往往在眨眼之间发生剧变，AI 无法真正“吸收”瞬时变化的动态画面，其固有的感知延迟与缺乏对真实物理危险的认知，决定了它在关键时刻无法替代真正的生命智能。在技术狂热与宏大叙事之外，这构成了人机之间一道难以逾越的鸿沟。
- 技术的统计本质：大语言模型并非具备人类意义上的悟性或理智，其底层本质是借助高维统计概率对下一个 Token 进行预测。
- 确定性缺陷：对同一提示词细微到无关紧要的改动，即可导致生成结果发生实质性偏移，这种不稳定性使其无法胜任许多严肃的现实决策。
- 导盲犬隐喻：在生死攸关的高动态物理现实中，存在严重延迟且缺乏后果感知机制的 AI，无法比拟拥有即时生物本能与具身感知的生命体。
### [34:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=2066s) AI模型的瓶颈与人类的反制之道
Mark Cuban 指出，无论科技公司如何竞相通过跑分测试和递归自我改进（Recursive Self-Improvement）让模型自我训练，AI 依然存在无法逾越的本质局限。他用一个生动的育儿场景作比：一个两岁大的小孩坐在高脚椅上拿着吸管杯，小家伙凭本能就知道如果把杯子推下餐椅，妈妈一定会飞奔过来，而自己能以此逗乐。Cuban 断言，AI 永远无法理解并计算出这种纯粹的人性互动。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: AI生态的对抗与数据割裂循环
accDescr: 展示企业与公众对AI的抵制如何导致模型数据割裂，最终突显出人类批判性整合信息的核心价值。
subgraph DataProtection["知识产权与公众反制"]
A["公众抵制与对抗行为<br/>(反抗数据中心 / 对抗性动作)"]
B["机构防御<br/>(放弃公开专利 / 转为商业机密)"]
end
subgraph ModelDivergence["模型割裂与输出差异"]
C["数据孤岛<br/>(Gemini / ChatGPT / Claude / Grok 数据不互通)"]
D["不同模型给出相悖答案"]
end
subgraph HumanAdvantage["人类不可替代的优势"]
E["跨模型提问能力"]
F["对比与批判性思考"]
G["做出符合自身利益的最佳决策"]
end
A --> C
B --> C
C --> D
D --> E
E --> F
F --> G
```
随后，Steven Bartlett 提出了指数级增长曲线的思考维度，认为全自动驾驶（FSD）目前的事故率已经明显低于人类驾驶，若技术持续指数级演进，其能力将极其惊人。Cuban 随即回应，技术的发展必然伴随着人类社会的激烈反弹，正如公众对高耗能数据中心的抗议，让人想起经典社会学著作《为什么人们会造反》（Why Men Rebel）。未来必定会出现完全拒绝技术的公社，同时针对 AI 的“对抗性攻击”（Adversarial Actions）也会层出不穷——人们只需故意诱导系统做出错误反应，就能让依赖视觉的自动驾驶等模型陷入混乱。
此外，Cuban 结合自己创办的 Cost Plus Drugs 经历指出，他告诫医院与科研机构绝不要公开全部成果或申请公开专利，因为这些成果一旦发布就会立刻被各大 AI 模型免费抓取训练，导致知识产权失控。如今越来越多的机构转而将核心技术当作商业机密保护或私下出售。这导致各大模型（Gemini、ChatGPT、Claude、Grok 等）训练数据出现严重割裂，针对同一问题往往给出截然不同的答案。Cuban 强调，虽然 AI 令人惊叹，但它如同身边坐着四位顶尖聪明人，答案却各不相同：“AI is incredible. But like having four of the smartest people next to you, they're not all going to give you the same answer and you have to have the skill set to be able to ask the right question.”最终拍板定案的依然取决于人类提出正确问题并综合判断的能力。
- 医疗机构策略转变：从公开学术发表或申请公开专利，转向维护商业机密（Trade Secrets）或构建专属私有模型，以防数据被公共基础大模型直接窃取。
- 对抗性动作（Adversarial Actions）：利用 AI 系统在视觉或数据识别上的盲区，故意构造反常场景诱导其产生灾难性误判。
---
### [37:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=2260s) 商业赞助：Cometeer 咖啡与 T-Mobile 超级宽带
Steven Bartlett 在中场插播了两则品牌赞助。首先是 Cometeer 冻干胶囊咖啡，Steven 分享称即使是前 Nespresso 总裁，在品尝该咖啡后也毫不犹豫选择注资。Steven 自己在伦敦办公室收到样品后，整个团队在 Slack 频道热烈讨论。该咖啡在风味最完美时进行瞬间冷冻，无需繁琐的咖啡机或易产生微塑料的冲煮设备，无论是加入热水还是制作冷萃，操作都极为简便，听众可凭指定优惠码立减 30 美元。
随后介绍了企业级网络服务赞助商 T-Mobile 推出的超级宽带（Super Broadband）。这是全美首个将地面 5G 网络与 Starlink（星链）低轨卫星相结合的宽带方案。由于企业的日常运营（包括视频会议、云端协作、跨国支付等）高度依赖在线连接，该双重网络架构可实现秒级无缝热备切换，即地面网络一旦中断，星链卫星便会瞬间接管，确保企业全美各邮编区域网络连接的绝对稳定。
---
### [39:56](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=2396s) 创造性破坏与 AI Agent 在商业作战中的实战应用
针对众多 AI 企业 CEO 声称未来将“无工可打”的言论，Cuban 直言技术确实会彻底重塑工作方式，但这属于经典的“创造性破坏”（Creative Destruction）。他回顾了自己在印第安纳大学布卢明顿分校求学的经历，临近的特雷霍特市（Terre Haute）曾是 RCA 唱片的核心制造基地，随后经历磁带、CD 到 DVD 的迭代淘汰，整个工厂和工种随之灰飞烟灭。尽管转型过程对底层工人来说极度痛苦，但音乐产业不仅没有消亡，反而诞生了更多全新的获利方式和就业形态。
谈及当下的技术落地，Cuban 透露正是因为大量使用 AI 智能体（AI Agents），自己才能在 25 年来首次腾出时间通读非虚构类书籍。AI Agents 帮他消化了大量以往拖延未做、耗费精力的繁琐代办事项。虽然使用 Grokbot、Dot、Co-work 等不同 Agent 得到的结果五花八门，依然需要人类大脑筛选甄别，但它们确实重组了劳动力结构。Cuban 坦言，以往这些杂活可能需要雇佣时薪 15 至 20 美元的实习生，而且还要耗费巨大的时间成本去招聘、培训与日常管理，结果往往是不了了之。
```mermaid
flowchart LR
accTitle: Cost Plus Drugs 商业智能 Agent 自动化流程
accDescr: 展示 AI Agent 自动监控诉讼和竞标、起草公共记录法案调取邮件，并由高阶员工推进的完整流程。
subgraph Monitor["Agent 实时监控"]
A["竞品医药巨头遭诉讼"]
B["政府公开招标信息"]
end
subgraph Process["Agent 自动化处理"]
C["整理核心诉讼情报"]
D["根据《信息公开法》<br/>(Open Records Act) 起草调阅申请"]
end
subgraph Action["高阶业务推进"]
E["调取竞争对手过往底价合同"]
F["高薪资深专家介入<br/>发起定点商业打击"]
end
A --> C
B --> D
C --> F
D --> E
E --> F
```
Cuban 以自身企业 Cost Plus Drugs 的商业对抗为例，展示了 AI Agent 的强大威力和全新管理模式：
为了打破传统医药中间商巨头的垄断，他配置了专门的 Agent：一旦这些巨头遭到诉讼，系统会第一时间报警并归纳细节；一旦出现政府药品竞标项目，Agent 不仅立即捕获信息，还能自动根据《信息公开法》（Open Records Act）生成调阅申请邮件，调取对手过往所有密封合同副本。“[Shit] I could never have imagined doing before unless I hired somebody, but that meant I had to take the time to hire them and train them and manage them, so it never got done.”现在这些过去根本无暇顾及的边角信息被全部打通，他转而能够将宝贵的人力预算投入到层级更高的高阶人才上。当 Steven 问及他如何指导刚满 17 岁的儿子规划未来时，Cuban 幽默地自嘲，作为三个孩子（分别为 17 岁、20 岁和 23 岁）的父亲，孩子们在日常生活中绝不会崇拜地对他说“爸爸你真懂未来”这种话；不过早在长女上大学时，他就已经强力督促她必须尽快掌握 AI Agent 的使用方法。
- 劳动力结构分化：低技能、事务性的实习生岗位被自动化 Agent 取代，企业预算向更懂复杂决策与战略执行的高阶岗位倾斜。
- 商业竞争情报突破：通过部署 Agent 自动触发并跟踪针对垄断巨头的司法文书与竞标档案，实现了极低成本的监管与竞对穿透。
### [43:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=2620s) AI 时代的竞争壁垒：学习、提问与现实整合
Mark Cuban 讲述了自己女儿在做展示时熟练运用 AI 的趣事。当时他去听女儿的演讲，听到女儿自豪地讲“我让一个 Agent 做了这个，又让另一个 Agent 做了那个”，Cuban 坦言自己当时就像一个骄傲的老父亲。但他随即向年轻一代强调，掌握这些工具是生存的底线，因为只要能连接到配有 Claude 或 Gemini 的智能手机或电脑，世上就没有你提不出的问题：
> “你必须去学这些东西，因为如果你不学，那些学会的人会比你高效得多。”（“You have to learn this stuff because if you don't, the person who does is going to be so much more productive than you are.”）
面对主持人关于“努力是否还重要”的提问，Cuban 坚定地表示努力依然至关重要，因为使用者必须花费时间去提问、消化输出的信息，并学会提出更深刻的问题。他回忆起自己早年创业时从未拥有过所谓的人生导师或人脉网络，所有知识都是通过埋头阅读书籍获取的；而如今，获取 Warren Buffett 对某个商业问题的看法只需轻点键盘。当每个人都能访问完全相同的信息库时，真正的核心壁垒在于将信息与现实目标整合并落地的能力。AI 可以快速生成商业计划书、构建机器人流程，但人类必须作为终极裁判去甄别对错，并亲自承担向市场销售的责任。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: AI 时代个人竞争力转化模型
accDescr: 展示从基础信息获取到最终业务落地的价值递增链条。
subgraph Input["信息与工具层"]
A["通用 AI 工具 (Claude / Gemini 等)"] --> B["自动化任务 (Agent 编排与商业计划草案)"]
end
subgraph Edge["人类壁垒与整合层"]
B --> C["有效提问与信息深度甄别"]
C --> D["现实场景整合与执行"]
D --> E["真实商业销售与闭环"]
end
```
---
### [45:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=2712s) 算力穷举与防御：为什么 Cuban 不是“AI 灭世论者”
针对科技界广泛蔓延的灾难论（Doomers），Cuban 提出了截然不同的看法。他指出，许多人声称 AI 能够入侵高难度网络安全系统，但在他与顶级安全专家交流时，他提出的核心问题是：AI 究竟有没有发明出全新的入侵方式？答案是完全没有。AI 只是拿到了所有安全人员手中既有的常见漏洞清单，凭借能够无休止尝试的智能体网络，用纯粹的“暴力穷举”（Brute Force）跑完所有可能的组合：
> “AI 一点都不聪明，它只是日复一日、永无休止地下笨功夫磨算力。”（“AI is not smart. It just grinds and grinds and grinds.”）
在过去的计算机安全领域，防御方之所以被动，是因为没有足够的资源去对抗 DDoS 攻击或穷举测试；而如今，防御端同样可以利用无限的 Agent 主动扫描自身软肋，提前消除风险。Cuban 强调，相比于 AI 本身可能带来的毁灭，他更担心人类由于对 AI 缺乏认知和恐慌所做出的愚蠢反应。在他眼中，当前的 AI 就像学校里依靠死记硬背考取满分的“书呆子”（Book Smart），看似无所不知，实则缺乏真正的智能。
---
### [46:56](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=2816s) 真正的智能：低资源解决问题与现实世界的感官交互
Cuban 对“智能”（Smart）给出了自己的严苛定义。他认为真正的智能必须满足三点：知道从何处寻找输入信息、能够归纳整合输入以解决实际问题，以及最重要的一点——能够主动识别所要解决的问题本身。AI 缺乏实时情境下的主动感知能力。Cuban 举例说，在医疗场景中，医生固然可以利用 AI 瞬间调取海量医学文献，但如果患者突然当场呕吐在医生身上，AI 无法判断这背后的复杂诱因，医生依然需要动用五感、临床经验和直觉去探寻正确的问题。
当主持人问及需要何种证据才会承认 AI 具备真正的智慧时，Cuban 提出了“极低资源”（Minimal Resource）的检验标准：
> “我认为衡量标准是，当你拿出一个资源极低的 AI，它却能凭借极少的资源去提出问题并解决问题。”（“I think where you take a minimal resource AI and it can ask and solve questions with minimal resources.”）
这就像世界上最贫困地区那些连书本都难以获得的 12 岁天才少年，仅凭对周遭环境的观察与有限线索就能摸索出解法。而当前的 AI 发展模式完全依赖堆砌 GPU、消耗天量电能与庞大算法，即便引入自我递归改进（Recursive Self-Improvement），只要它无法在极度受限的资源下诞生创造性解法，就谈不上真正的智能。
---
### [48:59](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=2939s) 资本推销、历史悖论与债务泡沫危机
谈及 Elon Musk 描绘的“人形机器人普及、人类工作变为可选项”的技术乌托邦，Cuban 在给予高度评价的同时也揭示了其本质。他认为 Musk 毫无疑问是这个时代最伟大的创业者，但其核心本质也是一位顶级的销售员，必须依靠激进的叙事来为宏大愿景募集巨额资本。Cuban 指出，业内专家和各前沿实验室对 AI 未来的预测莫衷一是，这恰恰证明根本没有一个明确明朗的技术终局。
Cuban 对比了早期计算机与当前 AI 的根本差异，并对当前的算力竞赛发出了严肃的宏观经济警告：
* **与早期计算机的历史反差**：早期计算机始于极端匮乏的算力，程序员使用穿孔纸带编写 Fortran 语言，算力不及现代手机的百分之一，完全依赖人类的极致智慧去设计编码；随后才通过摩尔定律逐步提速。而 AI 一开局就依赖人类历史上从未有过的巨额算力与电力进行穷举，反倒显得是一种倒退。
* **数据中心的“匹克球场”隐喻**：Cuban 直言，许多当前大举兴建的数据中心未来可能会被改造成匹克球场（Pickleball Courts），因为技术走向巅峰的客观规律是用更少的能源办更多的事，无限透支资源的模式必将撞上天花板。
* **迫在眉睫的债务危机**：超大规模云服务商（Hyperscalers）正在以超过其实际收入的速度大规模举债购买电力和 GPU，这种疯狂借贷与美国不断膨胀的政府赤字产生共振，推高借贷利率，极有可能将整个经济拖入一场由 AI 催生的深度债务泡沫之中。
### [53:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=3193s) 债务泡沫、AI 资本狂潮与帝国的衰退周期
Mark Cuban 深入剖析了当前围绕人工智能的高杠杆和宏观债务隐患。他指出，如果一家公司身背 400 亿美元的债务，而利率还在不断攀升，最终必然会面临无法继续融资的死胡同。行业表面繁荣的背后其实充满焦虑，Mark Cuban 直言：“现在有很多人在祈祷。我是英伟达和黄仁勋的忠实粉丝，但他们基本上是在补贴半个行业，因为他们手里有足够的现金这么做。”与此同时，部分大型科技巨头（如 Meta）借入的资金规模已经达到其自由现金流的数倍。他认为，当前市场处于极其脆弱的私市信贷（private credit）债务环境之中，存在巨大的不确定性，任何环节都可能崩盘。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: AI投资狂潮与宏观债务挤出效应模型
accDescr: 展示利率飙升和巨额赤字如何挤出资本并引发风险
subgraph Macro["宏观债务压力"]
A["美国国债利息支出<br/>每年达 1 万亿美元"] --> B["10年期美债收益率上升<br/>从 5.2% 冲向更高水平"]
end
subgraph AI_Race["AI 资本竞赛"]
C["超大规模云厂商 (Hyperscalers)<br/>大举举债投入算力基础设施"]
D["领军硬件巨头 (如英伟达)<br/>利用充裕现金流补贴行业生态"]
D -.->|"高资本开支循环"| C
end
B --> E["资金成本激增<br/>借贷市场发生资金挤出"]
C --> E
E --> F["潜在临界点：<br/>私市信贷断裂或资产流动性危机"]
```
对话随后延伸到宏观历史周期。Steven Bartlett 提及 Ray Dalio 的债务周期理论，指出美国和英国等西方国家正处于过度负债与全球影响力下滑的“衰退期”（decline）。尽管年轻一代习惯了美国的长期主导地位而难以想象其衰退，Cuban 虽然保持着美国人特有的乐观信念，相信国家最终会找到解决办法，但也尖锐地批判了体制现实：“我们的政客极擅长喊口号，但在实际做事上却极其糟糕。我认为这对这个国家以及所有国家来说都会非常艰难。”
- **万亿美元利息支出**：美国每年仅国债利息就要支付约 1 万亿美元，随着基准利率上升（如 10 年期美债收益率达到 5.2% 甚至更高），政府借贷与超大规模云厂商（hyperscalers）的高额融资将发生资金挤出效应（crowding out）。
- **防御性资产配置**：面对潜在的系统性风险，Cuban 透露自己已经采取了防守策略，例如在多个不同国家分散存放资金，并效仿 Warren Buffett 减少高风险投资，持有现金以静观其变。
---
### [56:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=3376s) 普通人的人格壁垒：不可替代的现实人际技能
面对普通人对 AI 狂潮与地缘科技竞赛的焦虑，Mark Cuban 强调，普通人唯一的生存之道就是打磨不可被剥夺的核心硬实力与人际交往能力。当 AI Agent 能够接管电脑操作、自动化大部分案头工作时，人与人面对面互动的技能反而变得空前昂贵。
Cuban 举例说明，自己近年来的一些小型投资正是围绕线下真实体验展开的，例如投资了一家在布伦特伍德（Brentwood）运营默剧派对（silent discos）的公司。他分析道，这种追求纯粹面对面沟通与真实人际连接的逻辑，正是近年来职业体育球队估值疯狂暴涨的底层动因——许多投资者认为现场体育赛事是“防 AI”（AI-proof）的资产，尽管体育行业自身也面临着媒体版权变迁等其他挑战。
---
### [58:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=3520s) 从自卑的胖小子到靠反叛寻求关注的青春期
在谈及驱动力时，Steven Bartlett 提到 Cuban 年轻时曾被打掉牙齿的经历，询问这是否在内心留下了深层的不安全感。Cuban 坦承，外人往往认为商业巨头的成功完全是出于深谋远虑的理性目标，但实际上，许多时候是内心的自卑在推着人往前走。
“我当时就是个胖小子，为了引人注意，我什么荒唐事都干得出来，”Cuban 回忆道。高中时，他曾特意穿了一件印着脏话的 T 恤去学校，母亲警告他一进校门就会被停课，结果他到校 20 分钟后就真被赶回了家；他甚至把牛仔裤从裤脚一路撕开到臀部，再用订书机一颗一颗订起来穿去上学，只为了博取目光。然而现实非常残酷，在他成名之后，有人去采访他的高中同班同学，绝大多数人对他根本毫无印象；甚至有人在高中年鉴上圈出一个所谓“年轻时的 Mark Cuban”，结果那张照片上的人根本就不是他。
- **印第安纳大学（IU）的重新出发**：Cuban 考入印第安纳大学（Indiana University Bloomington），就是为了彻底洗掉过去那个不受重视的自己，将其视为一个摆脱自卑、重新塑造身份的起点。
- **反抗被低估的动力**：那种被同龄人忽视的不安全感，最终演变成一股强烈的逆反心理，正如 Cuban 所言：“噢，毫无疑问，就是为了向人们证明他们是错的。”
---
### [01:00:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=3608s) 财富的终极本质：时间掌控权与对束缚的终生反叛
Cuban 澄清自己从未想过“出名或成功能够抚平内心的自卑”，他的真正动因非常直接：“我只是极度讨厌贫穷，我想要掌控自己的命运，掌控自己的时间。”他在 30 多岁通过出售第一家公司 MicroSolutions 赚到了数百万美元，但他没有立刻投入下一场资本运作，而是买了一张美国航空（American Airlines）的终身通票（lifetime pass）。他当年的目标极为洒脱——搭乘飞机飞往各个国家，尽情狂欢，彻底享受生活。
在卖掉 MicroSolutions 的当天，Cuban 做了一件极具仪式感的事：他把戴在手腕上的手表摘了下来，发誓再也不戴手表。他解释道：“因为那意味着我是在按别人的时间工作。通过不戴手表、通过获得成功，时间完完全全属于我自己。”这也是他至今极度排斥正装和领带的原因，在他看来，真正的气场不是穿什么名牌，“真正的酷（swag）不是你穿得多体面，而是你有权告诉别人他们该怎么穿。”
- **从 MicroSolutions 到 Broadcast.com**：37 岁时，Cuban 创办了网络音频公司 Broadcast.com；仅 4 年后，该公司在互联网泡沫巅峰期以 57 亿美元的股票价格卖给雅虎（Yahoo）。
- **账面净资产跃迁**：该笔交易让 Cuban 的账面身家暴增至 15 亿到 17 亿美元之间。
- **亿万身家带来的内心剧变**：当 Bartlett 询问这笔横财是否改变了他的内心时，Cuban 坚定地回答：“它改变了一切。这意味着我不再需要整天奔波挣扎、焦虑下一步该做什么，我可以做任何我想做的操蛋事。”正是这种对时间和金钱的绝对自由，才促成了他后来买下达拉斯独行侠队（Dallas Mavericks）这一不可思议的决定。
### [01:02:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=3722s) 金钱与幸福的本质
Mark Cuban 谈到他的父母过去从未拥有过掌控时间的自由，他们总是受制于人，不得不按时上班、对特定的人赔笑脸、完成各种指派的任务；对他们而言，能下班回家吃顿晚饭、看看电视，便已是最大的快乐。当主持人问及父亲见证他成为成功人士时的反应，Cuban 感慨地表示父亲只会止不住地哭泣。他们一家人都非常感性，父亲为孩子们深感骄傲，却常常摇着头对他说：“真不知道你这身本事是哪儿来的，肯定不是遗传自我和你妈。”
谈到巨额财富给人生带来的启示，Cuban 指出，财富根本无法重塑一个人的内在本质：
> “如果你穷的时候过得痛苦，那你富有了大概率也一样会痛苦。”（Mark Cuban）
他直言金钱无法改变你的为人、生活态度或是对自我的认同。虽然他更享受富有而非贫穷的状态，但让他真正感到自豪的，是自己至今仍与最开始的那群人保持紧密联系——高中密友依然是好友，大学橄榄球队友、两个亲兄弟以及那些从一开始就对他意义重大的人，至今仍是他核心社交圈里不可替代的存在。
### [01:03:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=3797s) 商业中不需要冷酷无情
针对“经商是否必须冷酷无情（ruthless）”这一问题，Cuban 给出了完全否定的回答。他坦言自己早年在创立 MicroSolutions 时常犯的一个重大错误就是大吼大叫；直到后来与 Todd Wagner 共同创办 Broadcast.com（AudioNet）时，Todd 直截了当地提醒他：“马克，大家都怕你，这样只会适得其反，你必须冷静下来。”这番话彻底点醒了他。Cuban 意识到，与人为善比当一个混蛋能让自己走得远得多。
这与他父亲“善待所有人”的处世哲学不谋而合。Cuban 解释道，生气并不能改变任何既定事实，反而只会让自己更难受，那何必动怒。虽然在篮球场上对裁判大吼是他释放情绪的宣泄口，但在严肃商业中，乱发脾气毫无意义。尽管外界常推崇 Steve Jobs 或 Ari Emanuel 那种充满暴怒与攻击性的管理风格，但 Cuban 强调每个人风格不同：
> “我发现与人为善比当个混蛋能让我走得远得多。”（Mark Cuban）
对他而言，到了当下的阶段，发脾气根本带不来任何好处，积极乐观、心平气和才是维持高效与满足感的关键。
### [01:05:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=3903s) 成为名人的代价远超拥有财富
当主持人谈到 Cuban 身上展现出的罕见乐观与平和时，Cuban 阐述了财富与名气（Celebrity）之间的巨大分野。金钱确实解决了居住压力、账单困扰等实际问题，但并没有将他变成一个更好或更坏的人。相比之下，成名所带来的挑战要沉重得多。
尤其是随着社交媒体兴起，以及《创智赢家》（Shark Tank）收视率攀顶、达拉斯小牛队（Dallas Mavericks）夺得 NBA 总冠军，Cuban 的知名度呈爆炸式扩张。他分析道，纯粹的富有只是改变了你处理现实事务的方式，并不会自动吸附外部视线；但成名却会将所有注意力——无论好坏——全部推到聚光灯下，令人无处遁形。
### [01:06:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=3974s) 聚光灯对兄弟造成的压力与重塑亲情
作为家中三兄弟中的大哥，Cuban 的两个弟弟 Brian 和 Jeff 先后追随他的脚步来到达拉斯。虽然两兄弟极其优秀、聪明且依靠自身打拼出了各自的事业，但随着 Cuban 的声名鹊起，“Cuban”这个独特的姓氏在达拉斯变成了一种沉重的无形枷锁。外界常常带着预设的目光打量他们，甚至质疑他们是否在依附哥哥，这给两兄弟带来了巨大的心理压力。
谈话中，主持人拿出了制作组事先联系弟弟 Brian 时收到的一封亲笔信，并现场读给 Cuban 听：
```
“我们之间有太多美好的童年回忆，很难挑选出某一个。
因此，我想谈谈对我来说最刻骨铭心的一件事。
2005年7月是我人生中最黑暗的低谷，我曾想过结束自己的生命。
是你和 Jeff 一直陪伴在我身边，就像你们一直以来的那样。
如果没有你们两个，我今天根本不会站在这里。
正如父亲在我们成长过程中所告诫的那样：无论发生什么，无论身在何方，永远与你的兄弟保持联系。
几十载过去，在距离匹兹堡1200英里的地方，我们所有人如今都住在彼此步行可达的距离之内，这绝非偶然。
我爱你。再会。”
```
读罢信件，Cuban 几度哽咽。他回忆起 2005 年那段灰暗的日子：2000 年他买下小牛队后名声大噪，弟弟 Brian 身处社交名利场之中，背负着身不由己的重压，最终陷入了严重的心理与成瘾危机。当时身在外地的 Cuban 接到弟弟 Jeff 的求助电话后立刻赶回，兄弟俩合力将 Brian 送进戒毒康复中心。Brian 自此成功戒瘾并保持清醒至今。Cuban 感慨，无论平时各自的生活轨迹如何，甚至即使平时没有形影不离，父亲“兄弟间永远保持联系”的叮嘱始终是家族不可动摇的底线，时至今日，他们依然每天在群里频繁发短信、聊橄榄球钢人队（Steelers）或棒球海盗队（Pirates）的比赛，彼此守望相助。
### [01:10:31](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=4231s) 直面生死、退出《Shark Tank》与出售独行侠队
Steven Bartlett 提到 Mark Cuban 的父母分别在 2017 年和 2022 年相继离世，并询问这是否让兄弟姐妹乃至整个家族更加紧密地团结在一起。Mark Cuban 回应说，从表面上看确实如此，但更深远的影响在于直面自身的有限与脆弱：“当你的父母离世时，它会让你真切感受到自己的终局。每个人的生命终点迟早都会到来。”他的父亲享年 92 岁，母亲活到了 85 岁，外人听起来觉得这是很长的一生，直到自己身处其中，才意识到这远不如心中期盼的那么漫长。
面对父母离去带来的生命震撼，Mark Cuban 开始重新审视人生中各项事务的优先级，这也直接促成了他近年来退出投资真人秀《Shark Tank》以及出售达拉斯独行侠队（Dallas Mavericks）多数股权的决定。他坦言，曾经总觉得下一次商务出差至关重要，错过孩子的生日时也会自我安慰“下一次一定到场”，但后来他意识到这完全是个错误：“我告诉自己：做这些到底是为了什么？”当他出售独行侠队时，三个孩子分别只有 13 岁、16 岁和 19 岁，离开《Shark Tank》时孩子们也只大了一点点。眼看着孩子们很快就要彻底独立走向社会，他下定决心要在有限的时间里尽可能多地陪伴在他们身边。
---
### [01:12:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=4327s) 并不是每个人都适合创业
当被问及“是否每个人都应该去创业”时，Mark Cuban 给出了坚决否定的回答。他指出，如果一个人还需要反复询问自己能不能成为创业者，那他很大概率就不是这块料：“如果你不得不问自己能否成为一名创业者，你可能就不是创业者。”创业需要明确的目标、变现自身技能的强烈欲望，但绝大多数人根本不愿意承担日复一日的枯燥准备，也不愿意去经历那些残酷的争斗。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 创业认知误区对比
accDescr: 对比大众对创业掌控感的幻想与创业后失去生活控制的真实处境
subgraph 认知误区["大众的幻觉"]
A["逃离打卡与上司摆布"] --> B["以为创业能完全掌控自己的生活"]
end
subgraph 真实处境["创业的残酷真相"]
C["对客户与员工全天候负责"] --> D["生活被不可控琐事彻底填满"]
D --> E["小团队视同家人，背负员工家庭与疾病重担"]
end
B -.->|"现实完全相反"| D
```
Mark Cuban 特别戳破了关于“自由”的谎言：许多人以为摆脱老板的摆布后就能全权掌控自己的生活，但事实恰恰相反——创业者根本掌控不了自己的生活。客户的需求、员工的变故会永远缠绕着你，尤其是在员工不足 100 人的企业里，大家低头不见抬头见，关系形同家人。当员工的孩子生病或者家庭出现困难时，创始人必须出面协调解决，这种无时无刻的责任和牵绊是绝大多数创业新手在入局前从未预料到的。
---
### [01:13:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=4387s) “贫穷烂透了”：20岁熬夜写代码的拼搏岁月
Steven Bartlett 拿出一张 Mark Cuban 年轻时在卧室写代码的旧照片，探讨岁月、名气与风霜如何重塑了一个人的原则。看到照片中还未挂上墙的画框，Mark Cuban 笑着指出那幅海报上面印着的一句话：“贫穷烂透了（Poverty sucks）。”无论是租住的公寓还是换过的房子，他都会把这幅标语挂在墙上，时刻警醒自己。
在创立 MicroSolutions 的初期，没有计算机专业学位的 Mark Cuban 完全依靠自学掌握了软件开发。他回忆起当年极度专注且疯狂的状态：买一桶烤肋排放在桌旁，连续编写 25 到 26 个小时的代码，常常以为才过去了三四个小时，抬头一看却已经过了 28 个小时。那种对成功的极度饥渴让他沉浸其中不能自拔，不顾一切也要冲到下一个台阶。
---
### [01:14:47](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=4487s) 承认短板：为什么需要互补的合伙人
在漫长的商海生涯中，Mark Cuban 清楚地认识到了自己的局限与致命弱点。他直言外界往往盲目崇拜亿万富翁，以为他们在所有领域都无所不能，但事实绝非如此：“有太多事情我干得非常糟糕。”他形容自己的做事风格是“准备、开火、再瞄准”，只管一路向前猛冲，细节出格或者踩线都留给别人去善后。
正因如此，他历次创业成功的关键都在于找到了能力互补的合伙人：
- **MicroSolutions 时期的 Martin Woodall**：极度挑剔、追求完美的细节控，负责把控质量与系统规范。
- **Broadcast.com 时期的 Todd Wagner**：拥有出色的管理与落地能力，与 Mark Cuban 的前冲冲劲形成完美互补。
- **Cost Plus Drugs 现任首席执行官 Alex Oshmyansky 博士**：严谨敏锐，极其注重医疗与商业细节，弥补了 Mark 对繁琐细务缺乏耐心的缺陷。
在谈及财务技能时，Mark Cuban 说明自己虽然没有金融学位，但上过财务与创业课程，完全能看懂并理解各种复杂的并购交易结构；可一旦涉及到具体微观的操作与琐碎执行，他必须依靠懂得细节的人。
---
### [01:16:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=4562s) “千万别给我投简历”：招人的短板与打造赢家文化
谈到领导力与招聘时，Mark Cuban 特意强调必须把这两者彻底分开：“我认为领导力是我的强项，但我招人极烂。”作为一个天生的销售员，他坐在求职者对面时，往往听对方回答一个问题就会产生救世主心态，觉得自己能帮助对方取得成功，结果招进来的全是不合适的人；这种盲目乐观甚至延续到了《Shark Tank》的投资里，明知项目不行还总以为靠自己能把局势盘活。因此，每当有人想要把简历发给他求职时，他都会自嘲地劝阻：“千万别发给我，因为我可能真会招你。”
- **用人哲学**：虽然他容易看走眼，但团队内部严格遵循“慢招快解雇（hire slow, fire fast）”的法则，一旦发现新人不合拍，会果断迅速地止损。
- **文化重于一切**：打造团队远比做出一款华丽的产品重要，尤其在体育和商业竞技中，即便聚集了最顶尖的天赋，若文化无法融合、团队缺乏默契，结果依然会一败涂地。
---
### [01:17:25](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=4645s) 入主达拉斯独行侠队：打破 NBA 旧规的文化颠覆
2000 年 Mark Cuban 收购达拉斯独行侠队时，球队深陷失败泥潭，俱乐部内外甚至毫无求胜欲望。当时的独行侠队被全联盟视作“跳板”或中转站，只有在波士顿凯尔特人队或洛杉矶湖人队谋不到职位的球员和职员才会勉强来这里落脚。
入主第一天，Mark Cuban 就召集所有球员划定底线，强力注入紧迫感与赢家文化：“我们就是要赢。这列火车正在全速提速，现在是互联网时代的 2000 年。想留下的告诉我，不想留下的也告诉我，我会把你交易走，我对此毫无意见，因为我们必须换个活法。”他向球员承诺，球队会提供赢球所需的一切工具。
```mermaid
flowchart LR
accTitle: 独行侠队球员发展模式变革
accDescr: 对比传统NBA教练团队包办模式与Mark Cuban推行的专属名宿发展模式
subgraph 传统NBA模式["传统联盟架构"]
A["主教练 + 约3名助教"] --> B["包揽全部战术与全队球员发展"]
C["计算机IT支持预算"] -->|"开销超过"| D["球员发展培训预算"]
end
subgraph Cuban革新模式["Cuban重构架构"]
E["聘请多名前独行侠退役名宿"] --> F["专人专属辅导"]
F --> G["一对一专职球员技能特训"]
end
B -.->|"彻底颠覆"| F
```
他随即展开了一场颠覆全联盟常规的改革。当时独行侠队仅配置了 1 名主教练和大约 3 名助理教练，几个人要包揽全队所有球员的发展与日常训练，而球队在电脑培训与 IT 支持上花的钱，居然比花在年薪超百万美元的球员发展上的钱还要多。Mark Cuban 斥责这种现象为“见过的最愚蠢的蠢事”，随即要求总经理、副总经理和教练组去物色并聘请独行侠队的前退役球员，建立一对一的专属指导机制，为每位高薪球员量身配备专职教练进行系统化的技能特训。
### [01:18:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=4720s) 达拉斯独行侠的文化重塑与 NBA 专机传奇
马克·库班（Mark Cuban）接手达拉斯独行侠队（Dallas Mavericks）后，在球队运作和文化建设上采取了一系列在当时看来极具颠覆性的举措。他发现许多退役的 NBA 球员渴望重返赛场环境，而且薪资诉求极低。于是，他为队里的每位球员聘请了技能风格相似的前球员作为专属教练，专门进行一对一辅导。这不仅让年轻球员的技术得到飞速打磨，更向整支球队传递了一个极其明确的信号：这支球队的文化就是追求胜利，管理层愿意不惜一切代价争取赢球。
这套理念随后延伸到了硬件设施。当时联盟其他球队的客场出行环境普遍简陋，经常在凌晨三点比完赛后搭乘狭窄的普通包机甚至民航客机。对于身高 7 英尺 6 英寸（约 2.29 米）的肖恩·布拉德利（Shawn Bradley）这种依靠身体谋生的球员来说，普通座位极度消耗体能。库班斥巨资为球队定制了一架专属波音飞机，并在队内开起恶作剧：“我告诉队员们：‘我们要逗逗所有人，你们去跟外面讲，这架飞机里配了健身房和蒸汽浴室。’”这个随口编造的玩笑流传极广，直到今天仍有人向他打听那间虚构的机舱健身房。除专机外，他还开行业先河地引入全职营养师和专属膳食准备。这些超越常规的举措让联盟其他球队的老板恨得咬牙切齿，却在达拉斯独行侠队内部迅速确立了极致支持球员与必胜的凝聚力。
- **战绩立竿见影：** 库班接手时球队战绩仅为 9 胜 23 负；在那个赛季剩余的 50 场比赛中，球队打出了 31 胜 19 负的逆转表现。
- **历史胜率蜕变：** 在库班掌舵期间，达拉斯独行侠队成为全 NBA 常规赛胜率第二高的球队，整体胜率从收购前的 39% 跃升至近 60%。
- **里程碑节点：** 球队于 2006 年首次闯入 NBA 总决赛（惜败于迈阿密热火队），并在 2011 年（库班 53 岁时）夺得队史首座 NBA 总冠军。库班于 2023 年出售了多数股权，但仍保留了 27% 的重要股份。
---
### [01:21:19](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=4879s) 体育竞技与商业运作：数据分析先驱 Wayne Winston 的故事
在探讨商业与体育的关系时，主持人史蒂文·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）指出体育拥有即时反馈的比分板，而商业环境中的反馈往往更模糊。库班则认为，商业本质上是“一年 365 天、一天 24 小时永不停歇的终极体育运动”，是最能满足竞争欲望的舞台。在体育界，球队可以通过交易、裁员和换季迅速洗牌；而在商业中，唯有持续创新才能在残酷竞争中存活。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 体育数据分析应用发展路径
accDescr: 展示马克·库班如何将学术界的统计学知识与独行侠队的战术决策相结合的过程。
subgraph Origin["1. 学术渊源与偶遇"]
A["18岁在印第安纳大学<br/>旁听 Wayne Winston 的 MBA 统计课"]
B["收购独行侠后<br/>在电视节目《Jeopardy!》中认出教授"]
C["在步行者队客场比赛现场相认"]
end
subgraph Implementation["2. 落地与行业革新"]
D["当场拍板聘用 Winston<br/>成为 NBA 首位全职数据分析师"]
E["结合数据建模与现场目测<br/>评估球员整体胜率贡献"]
end
subgraph Impact["3. 长期成果"]
F["奠定冠军阵容基石<br/>开创全联盟数据分析浪潮"]
end
A --> B
B --> C
C --> D
D --> E
E --> F
```
库班回顾了自己如何将数据分析（Analytics）首次引入 NBA。18 岁在印第安纳大学时，他曾偷偷跑去旁听 MBA 课程，主讲统计学的是韦恩·温斯顿（Wayne Winston）教授。收购独行侠队约半年后，库班在智力竞赛节目《Jeopardy!》上看到了温斯顿教授在大杀四方。数周后独行侠客场挑战印第安纳步行者队，人群中有人高喊库班的名字，定睛一看正是温斯顿。两人深聊后，库班当场拍板聘请他，温斯顿由此成为 NBA 历史上首位全职数据分析师。针对业内长期存在的“肉眼观察（Eye test）与数据模型”之争，库班强调两者必须结合：“你不能非此即彼。有些球员投篮姿势难看、命中率不高，但综合来看，他们对赢得比赛和夺冠的实际贡献，远超过那些单场砍下 25 分的球员。”
---
### [01:23:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=5015s) 财富之上的核心价值：家庭、父职与聚光灯下的遗憾
当话题转向家庭与人生意义时，库班的语气变得格外柔软和审慎。他在 30 多岁尾声时与妻子蒂芙尼（Tiffany）相识，44 岁（2002 年）结婚，育有三个孩子。库班直言，家庭完全凌驾于一切商业成就之上：“我大脑的一部分被商业、竞争完全占据，但更好的那部分完全属于我的孩子和妻子。他们以我无法形容的无数种方式让我变得更好。对我而言，没有什么比他们更重要。”
回顾创业早期（如经营 MicroSolutions 时期），库班坦言自己当时野心勃勃，曾为了事业牺牲感情生活，直到人生成熟期才彻底摆正家庭的重心。然而，在平衡商业与家庭方面，他心中仍有深刻的遗憾。
> “在很多方面我都对此感到遗憾……我没有像我应该做的那样，去参加孩子们那么多的小型活动。我那时总对自己说：‘他们还太小，记不住这些。’于是我便转头去忙那些所谓的业务，但回过头看，我本应该多陪陪他们的。” —— 马克·库班
正是这种反思，促成了他退出《创智赢家》（Shark Tank）以及出售独行侠队大部分股权的决定。随着孩子进入青春期，身为超级富豪的子女面临着常人难以想象的聚光灯压力。库班经常提醒孩子们：普通人犯傻只是朋友间的事，但如果是他们犯错，瞬间就会登上新闻头条和全球社交媒体。尽管伴随着严苛的关注，孩子们依然健康成长。说到动情处，库班眼中泛起泪光，坦言自己是个容易感性落泪的人：“在全世界所有词汇中，我最喜欢的词永远是‘爸爸’（Dad）。”
### [01:26:54](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=5214s) 面对终局与家庭遗产：希望孩子们以我为荣
随着岁月的推移，Mark Cuban 开始更加坦然地审视生命的有限性与死亡。他动情地提到自己的父母已经离世，他在衣帽间里保留着他们的照片，每天早晨与夜晚都会主动向父母问好。Cuban 希望当自己离开人世之后，自己的孩子们也能以同样的方式对待他。他希望孩子们能够以父亲为荣，并尽可能以最积极的方式记住他，携手把全家人共同开创的事业与价值传承下去。主持人 Steven Bartlett 坚信孩子们必然会为他感到骄傲，但 Cuban 笑着表示孩子们目前还处在某个特定的人生阶段，彼此之间还从来没有正式探讨过这样深沉的话题。
Steven 随后调侃道，Cuban 如今已经 68 岁，并正式从热播创投节目《Shark Tank》卸任（Steven 自己刚刚作为客座投资人加入该节目，直呼 Cuban 留下的空缺难以填补）。面对年龄的话题，Cuban 幽默地反驳自己“明明才 48 岁”。Steven 赞同他保持着极佳的精神状态和体能，如今依然活跃在篮球场等各类体育运动中，并顺势询问他在人生与职业生涯的下一个篇章中最渴望实现的目标。
Mark Cuban 谈到自己对代际传承与记忆的期待时真情流露：
> “我希望他们以我为荣，我希望他们尽可能以最积极的方式记住我，我也希望他们能够继承我们大家共同努力去做的任何事情。”
---
### [01:28:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=5284s) 颠覆美国医疗体制：Cost Plus Drugs 的使命
谈及职业生涯下一阶段的核心焦点，Cuban 毫无保留地指向了他创办的在线药房 Cost Plus Drugs（costplusdrugs.com）。他直言当前美国的医疗与医药保健体系一片混乱，自己下半生的使命就是彻底重塑这一系统。他对比道，过去带领达拉斯独行侠队（Dallas Mavericks）夺冠或赢球时，走在街上听到球迷赞叹“打得真棒”固然令人愉悦，但如今当有普通人走上前对他说“我从 Cost Plus Drugs 买药，每月省下了 1000 美元，我终于吃得起救命药了”时，那种震撼与成就感是任何体育荣誉都无法比拟的。
Steven 感慨像 Cuban 这样身家的顶级富豪愿意投身于此，其最大价值在于将聚光灯打在了一个极度抗拒透明度的暴利行业上。Cuban 随即坚定地立下承诺，誓要根除行业的沉疴。他剖析了美国医疗体制的核心症结：整个行业基本被三大巨头公司垄断，年销售额高达数千亿美元；与此同时，全美通过雇主获得商业医疗保险的人群中，有高达 67% 是由雇主进行“自我承保”（Self-insured）。这意味着背负全部账单风险的并非传统保险中介，而是雇主自身。
为了打破中间商的盘剥，Cuban 采取了最直接的商业攻坚战——亲自一家家敲开各大企业 CEO 的办公室大门，直言不讳地指出他们在医疗福利采购中被中介掠夺的真相，敦促他们为了公司成本及员工家庭健康做出明智的选择。当被问及此前与唐纳德·特朗普（Donald Trump）之间复杂的过往关系、以及近期同台探讨医疗降本举措时，Cuban 坦言自己完全不介意政治风向与外界非议，只要能让大众更健康、真正把医疗费用降下来，他愿意与任何人合作，因为他的终极目标是让医疗保健在全美真正成为一项人人享有的基本权利。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: Cost Plus Drugs 对美国传统医疗保险模式的颠覆路径
accDescr: 展示传统 PBM 中间商垄断模式与 Mark Cuban 直接对接自我承保雇主模式的对比。
subgraph 传统垄断闭环
A["三大医疗及 PBM 巨头"] -->|"层层加价与黑箱回扣"| B["高额药品与账单"]
B --> C["员工与企业共同承担高额成本"]
end
subgraph Cost Plus Drugs 穿透模式
D["Mark Cuban / Cost Plus Drugs"] -->|"透明成本定价 + 极低固定利润"| E["直接游说 67% 自我承保雇主 (Self-insured CEOs)"]
E -->|"绕开中介直接结算"| F["为普通家庭每月节省数千美元药费"]
end
```
关于自己颠覆医疗垄断巨头的决心，Mark Cuban 斩钉截铁地表示：
> “我一定会解决这个问题，我向你保证我一定会解决它，因为基本上只有三家大公司垄断了整个医疗保健行业。”
- **垄断格局**：全美医疗与药品供应链由三大巨头高度控制，年营收规模达数千亿美元。
- **自保比例**：在依托雇主获取医保的美国人群中，67% 属于雇主自我承保（Self-insured），企业自身直接承担最终的医疗赔付成本。
- **降本实效**：Cost Plus Drugs 采取出厂成本加成固定透明利润的模式，许多长期慢性病患者每月可直接节省多达 1000 美元的处方药开销。
---
### [01:29:59](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=5399s) 播客传统终局之问与临别赠言
访谈进入尾声，Steven 打开了《The Diary Of A CEO》标志性的嘉宾留言簿。按照节目传统，上一位不知晓后继者身份的神秘嘉宾为下一位受访者留下了一个极具张力的问题：“在所有未曾被问及的问题中，哪一个是真正最难回答的？”面对这个猝不及防的提问，Cuban 略带沉思后坦言，其实正是 Steven 前面所探讨的家庭以及触及内心最深处情感波动的那些问题。对于习惯在商海搏杀、掌控商业逻辑的企业家而言，直面内心深处对至亲的情感羁绊与死亡反思，永远是难度最高、最难以言表的部分。
Steven 在告别之际向 Cuban 表达了由衷的敬意与感谢。Steven 动情地回顾道，在自己青年创业与人生的多个关键十字路口，正是偶然读到或看到 Cuban 的生平故事、商业洞见与思维理念，才给予了自己坚持下去的信念、保持耐心的定力以及穿透迷雾的智慧。而通过这次近距离的深入对话，Steven 获得的更深层启示在于：一个人不仅可以在商业上取得登峰造极的巨大成功，同时完全可以保持善良、积极、坦诚与纯粹的快乐。面对如此高度的赞赏，Cuban 依然不失幽默地笑称“我们可别夸过头了”。对话在轻松真挚的氛围中圆满收官，Steven 随后向观众引介了基于算法推荐的精彩延伸内容。
在谈及直面自我内心与最难回答的问题时，Mark Cuban 总结道：
> “归根结底，那些在情感层面上最触动你的问题，才是那些我平时最难被问及的问题。”
## Notable quotes
> [01:02:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=3722s) 如果你穷的时候过得痛苦，那你富有了大概率也一样会痛苦。 — Mark Cuban
> [01:12:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=4327s) 如果你不得不问自己能否成为一名创业者，你可能就不是创业者。 — Mark Cuban
> [01:03:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=3797s) 我发现与人为善比当个混蛋能让我走得远得多。 — Mark Cuban
> [45:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck&t=2712s) AI 一点都不聪明，它只是日复一日、永无休止地下笨功夫磨算力。 — Mark Cuban
## Mentioned
Mark Cuban, Steven Bartlett, The Diary Of A CEO, Cost Plus Drugs, MicroSolutions, Broadcast.com, Dallas Mavericks, Shark Tank, Dirk Nowitzki, Steve Nash, Michael Finley, Mark Zuckerberg, Sam Altman, Jeff Bezos, Bob Knight, Charlie Munger, Warren Buffett, Leon Festinger, Elon Musk, Wayne Winston, Alex Oshmyansky, Todd Wagner, Martin Woodall, Brian Cuban, Jeff Cuban, Donald Trump, OpenAI, Anthropic, ChatGPT, Claude, Gemini, Grok, Nvidia, Apple, Google, Meta, T-Mobile, Starlink, Cometeer
## Video description
Are you looking to break free from the trap of a 9 to 5 job in the modern economy? Billionaire entrepreneur Mark Cuban, as he shares the raw truths about artificial intelligence, sales, and the reality of building an empire.
Mark Cuban is a legendary American billionaire, investor, and former shark on ABC's Shark Tank, best known for transforming the Dallas Mavericks into NBA champions and building multi-million dollar tech enterprises like Broadcast.com and MicroSolutions. Today, he is fully dedicated to disrupting the American healthcare industry through his revolutionary online pharmacy, Cost Plus Drugs.
*In this episode, he explains:*
■ *The AI Illusion:* How artificial intelligence is simply a brute force pattern matcher that lacks true human intelligence, meaning the real edge belongs to humans who leverage it to “out prepare” and “out learn” the competition.
■ *The Power of Sales:* Why very successful business is fundamentally built on sales, and mastering the ability to handle objections and rejection guarantees you a job for life.
■ *The Danger of Quick Money:* How modern social media algorithms feed youth an illusion of instant wealth, holding back a generation that refuses to put in the grueling preparation required to master a skill.
■ *The Chemistry of Leadership:* How turning around a failing sports franchise or a business requires ruthless commitment to team culture, hiring slowly, firing fast, and replacing ego with collective alignment.
■ *The True Definition of Success:* Why true wealth is ultimately about controlling your own time and destiny rather than buying luxury items, and prioritizing family above all else remains the ultimate life achievement.
00:00:00 Intro
00:02:10 Why Being Adaptable Matters
00:03:03 My Upbringing
00:04:34 My First Business: Selling Garbage Bags at 12
00:06:12 How to Become a Great Salesperson
00:08:28 The Biggest Mistakes Young Entrepreneurs Make
00:11:11 What All Millionaires Have in Common
00:13:32 How I Transformed the Dallas Mavericks
00:18:42 Hate Your Job but Have Little Savings? Do This
00:22:09 The Sacrifices I Made to Become Successful
00:25:04 AI: Opportunity or Threat?
00:27:28 How Social Media Is Misleading Young Entrepreneurs
00:31:12 Are We in a Bubble?
00:33:04 Why Humans Will Always Be Smarter Than AI
00:37:38 Ads
00:39:56 How AI Agents Will Transform Work and Life
00:44:39 Why AI Isn’t Actually Smart (and Why I’m Not a Doomer)
00:48:59 Will AI Create a Utopia?
00:50:31 How AI Is Different From the Computer Revolution
00:51:29 Is AI Sending Us Into Debt?
00:57:21 Ads
00:58:40 How My Insecurities Drove My Success
01:01:16 What Becoming a Billionaire Changed in Me
01:03:17 Do You Have to Be Ruthless in Business?
01:05:03 The Cost of Fame and Losing Privacy
01:06:14 How Fame Impacted My Brothers
01:12:07 Should Everyone Be an Entrepreneur?
01:14:47 My Biggest Weaknesses
01:16:02 Why Hiring Is Everything
01:17:25 What the Mavericks Taught Me About Building Culture
01:23:34 How I Balance Family and Business
01:27:37 Cost Plus Drugs: My Take On The US Healthcare Industry
01:29:59 The Hardest Question I Wasn’t Asked
*Follow Mark Cuban:*
Instagram - https://link.thediaryofaceo.com/FXXD0pv
LinkedIn - https://link.thediaryofaceo.com/BtJmMjj
X - https://link.thediaryofaceo.com/4Lk74lp
Cost Plus Drugs - https://link.thediaryofaceo.com/2SH0oYX
*The Diary Of A CEO:*
◼ Join DOAC circle here - https://doaccircle.com/
◼ Buy The Diary Of A CEO book here - https://link.thediaryofaceo.com/BWjLTZK
◼ Shop The Diary Of A CEO collection: https://thediary.com/collections/shop
◼ Get email updates - https://link.thediaryofaceo.com/5IB1H6E
◼ Follow Steven - https://link.thediaryofaceo.com/AGU9QP4
◼ DOAC Bookshelf - https://link.thediaryofaceo.com/BBnuCf6
*Sponsors:*
Cometeer - http://cometeer.com/steven use code STEVEN for $30 off
T-Mobile - https://www.superbroadband.com/
LinkedIn Marketing - https://www.linkedin.com/DIARY
[Source](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck)
Source quotes
[62:02] Mark Cuban: 如果你穷的时候过得痛苦，那你富有了大概率也一样会痛苦。
[72:07] Mark Cuban: 如果你不得不问自己能否成为一名创业者，你可能就不是创业者。
[63:17] Mark Cuban: 我发现与人为善比当个混蛋能让我走得远得多。
[45:12] Mark Cuban: AI 一点都不聪明，它只是日复一日、永无休止地下笨功夫磨算力。
Source quotes
[72:07] Mark Cuban: If you have to ask yourself if you can be an entrepreneur, you're probably not an entrepreneur.
[62:02] Mark Cuban: If you're miserable when you're poor, good chance you're going to be miserable when you're rich.
[33:04] Mark Cuban: AI is not smart. It just knows how to use statistics basically to predict the next word.
[0:00] Mark Cuban: I got a lot further by being nice than by being a dick.
[72:07] Mark Cuban: You have no control of your life as an entrepreneur because your customers, your employees, there's always something.
[6:12] Mark Cuban: And once you can sell, I mean, you have a job for life.
Original transcript
[0:00] AI is not smart. AI doesn't know the
[0:02] consequences of its actions. It doesn't
[0:04] have inherent ethics. Those companies
[0:05] keep on borrowing and spending more
[0:07] money in order to power all the AI, but
[0:11] they're borrowing more than they're
[0:12] making. We literally could get into a
[0:14] debt bubble. You do you think we're in a
[0:15] bubble, don't you?
[0:16] >> Yeah.
[0:16] >> What causes it to burst?
[0:18] >> I'll tell you this.
[0:19] >> So, what are the most sort of
[0:20] foundational things that needs to
[0:21] understand the Mark Cuban that we've all
[0:22] grown to love from the Shark Tank and
[0:24] the businesses and the Dallas Mavs and
[0:26] >> So, business was an area where I I was
[0:28] always ahead of the curve, no matter how
[0:29] old I was. Growing up, I went
[0:31] door-to-door in the neighborhood selling
[0:32] garbage bags, and that probably
[0:34] catapulted me more than anything cuz if
[0:36] you can go door-to-door and sell, you
[0:37] can do anything. Like on a Shark Tank,
[0:39] when somebody walked in and told me
[0:40] about their company, I knew exactly how
[0:42] I would sell it.
[0:43] >> What are the sort of consistent themes
[0:45] amongst all people that become an
[0:47] entrepreneur?
[0:47] >> Well, you've got to find one thing and
[0:49] be great at it. And then, find a way to
[0:51] turn that something into a business.
[0:53] Next, if you're going to do anything
[0:54] with technology, media, whatever it may
[0:56] be, you better be ahead of the curve
[0:58] because business is like a sport. If you
[1:00] don't keep on getting better and
[1:01] improving your game, you're not going to
[1:03] be able to compete. But, [music] what we
[1:04] don't talk about is what do I suck at?
[1:07] Suck at it.
[1:08] >> And one of the biggest mistakes I made
[1:10] >> was I was a jerk. I would yell. I would
[1:11] scream, and I found that I got a lot
[1:13] further by being nice than by being a
[1:15] dick.
[1:16] >> The last thing I wanted to ask you about
[1:17] is your more recent decisions around
[1:18] leaving Shark Tank, selling the Mavs.
[1:20] >> I'll tell you this.
[1:22] That tells you all you need to know.
[1:24] >> I've got some wonderful photos here that
[1:26] we
[1:26] >> Yeah, that's my brother Brian.
[1:28] >> Brian, he wrote you a letter.
[1:30] >> Oh my god, I'll probably start crying.
[1:42] >> Here is a strange fact. Most of the
[1:44] people watching this right now, about
[1:45] 58% of you, aren't yet subscribed to
[1:47] this channel. Statistically, that is
[1:49] probably you. So, could I ask you a
[1:51] small favor? If this channel has ever
[1:54] given you any value at all, please could
[1:55] you do me a favor and hit the subscribe
[1:57] button? It costs [clears throat]
[1:58] nothing. It helps us more than you could
[1:59] know. And the bigger the channel gets,
[2:01] as you've seen, the more we can invest
[2:02] in the guests and the production. So,
[2:04] thank you so much and I hope you enjoy
[2:05] this episode.
[2:08] >> [music]
[2:10] >> Mark,
[2:12] >> There are
[2:13] so many things happening in the world at
[2:15] the moment and just specifically
[2:16] focusing in on business and technology
[2:18] and AI. One of the remarkable things I
[2:20] often reference about you is in spite of
[2:23] your success, you continue to
[2:25] self-educate.
[2:27] And I've watched this in you over
[2:29] multiple cycles of technology. When
[2:31] crypto became a thing, when AI showed
[2:33] up, one of the first things I see on my
[2:35] timeline is Mark Cuban going [laughter]
[2:38] back to school.
[2:39] >> Yeah, for sure.
[2:39] >> What's going on in your head at the
[2:41] moment?
[2:41] >> To me, business is like a sport. And if
[2:44] you don't keep on getting better and
[2:46] improving your game,
[2:48] you're not going to be able to compete.
[2:49] And if you're going to do anything with
[2:51] technology, media, whatever it may be,
[2:54] you better be ahead of the curve,
[2:55] otherwise there's going to be some kid
[2:56] in high school somewhere going to kick
[2:58] your ass. And I want to be the one doing
[3:00] the ass kicking instead of getting their
[3:02] ass kicked.
[3:03] >> What are the most sort of foundational
[3:04] things I need to know about your
[3:06] earliest contacts to understand the Mark
[3:08] Cuban that we've all grown to love and
[3:09] know from the Shark Tank and the
[3:11] businesses and the Dallas Mavs and
[3:13] >> I think I just grew up in a regular
[3:15] family and just had the piss and vinegar
[3:18] in me to always want to compete, like I
[3:21] said, and I was able to turn an idea
[3:23] into a business and be successful.
[3:25] >> And you had very um formative parents by
[3:27] the sounds of things.
[3:27] >> Yeah, I mean, I had great upbringing. My
[3:30] dad did upholstery on cars, pure blue
[3:32] collar. My mom did odd jobs.
[3:35] >> Of course, my dad.
[3:35] >> Yeah, that's my grandparents, my mom.
[3:40] My mom was only 20 when I was
[3:41] >> brother Brian, who's the middle brother,
[3:43] and my dad. That's when we lived on
[3:44] Meadowlark in Pittsburgh.
[3:47] >> Your father never made more than $40,000
[3:49] in his life.
[3:49] >> Never. No, he would be up work um and
[3:52] gone by the time we were leaving for
[3:53] school. He actually lost an eye when he
[3:56] was doing upholstery. There was a staple
[3:58] that broke when I was in sixth grade,
[4:01] but he just always was a grinder and
[4:03] just
[4:04] Yeah, amazing. I miss him.
[4:07] >> You miss him?
[4:07] >> I miss them both. Everywhere we went, he
[4:10] always had friends, and if he didn't
[4:12] know people there, they quickly became
[4:13] his friends. And I think that set a
[4:15] great example for my brothers and I more
[4:17] than anything.
[4:18] >> What are some of those sort of
[4:19] high-level lessons that you always
[4:21] reference come from him?
[4:22] >> You know, he would say things that like
[4:23] you don't live in the world you were
[4:25] born into. You know, today's the
[4:26] youngest you'll ever be. That type of
[4:29] thing where, you know, no matter what
[4:30] hustle I had going on, he was always
[4:32] supportive. Always.
[4:34] >> And what did you think you were going to
[4:35] be when you were older at that age in
[4:37] those photos?
[4:38] >> Oh, a baseball player.
[4:39] >> Really?
[4:39] >> [laughter]
[4:40] >> Yeah, I was good, but not good enough.
[4:42] Um, but then after that, it became
[4:44] apparent that I was going to be a
[4:45] business guy.
[4:47] >> I mean, I think it was apparent from
[4:48] your Yeah, I sold
[4:50] >> cards when I was a kid.
[4:51] >> Yeah.
[4:51] >> Oh my god, you got some good ones.
[4:53] >> I mean, you also started selling some of
[4:54] these out here as well.
[4:55] >> Yeah, so what I would do is
[4:57] >> [laughter]
[4:57] >> Yeah, so when I was like 9 or 10 years
[5:00] old, I would go to the local pharmacy,
[5:03] and they would sell packs of baseball
[5:04] cards. And I would buy a bunch of them,
[5:06] um, with my allowance, and then I would
[5:08] repackage them using like the comics and
[5:10] everything for the paper. Buy these for
[5:13] like I cost me like a quarter, buy them
[5:15] for 50 cents. You're guaranteed to get a
[5:16] Pittsburgh pirate like Roberto Clemente
[5:19] or Willie Stargell. And I would sell
[5:21] them and make money, then I'd go and
[5:23] turn it around and make more.
[5:25] And that literally was my first start in
[5:27] hustling. And then one day, my dad was
[5:30] playing poker with his buddies, you
[5:31] know, they'd rotate to each other's
[5:33] houses, and he they were at our house,
[5:36] and I went in there to grab a donut, and
[5:38] I was like, "Dad, I want a new pair of
[5:40] basketball shoes." And he looks at my
[5:41] feet, and he goes, "Those shoes work.
[5:43] When you have a job, you can buy
[5:45] whatever you want." I'm like, "Dad, I'm
[5:47] 12." And one of his buddies who had to
[5:49] have been drunk was like, "Hey, I got
[5:51] something you can sell. I've got boxes
[5:52] of garbage bags that I'll sell to you
[5:55] for $3 and you can sell them for six."
[5:57] And literally, I went door-to-door in
[5:59] the neighborhood and I'd be like,
[6:01] "Hi, I'm your neighbor Mark. Do you use
[6:03] garbage bags?" Easy sell, right? And
[6:06] that probably catapulted me more than
[6:08] anything cuz if you can go to
[6:09] door-to-door and sell,
[6:11] you can do anything.
[6:12] >> This whole idea of selling
[6:14] is um is sort of very top of mind for
[6:16] you in terms of the one of the ultimate
[6:17] skills of building becoming an
[6:19] entrepreneur.
[6:20] And and I it's so funny cuz I spent a
[6:21] lot of time in call centers when I was
[6:22] younger doing cold calls, but I always
[6:24] say that the best sales experience is
[6:26] door-to-door sales.
[6:27] >> Or call or call call centers, right?
[6:29] Every no gets you closer to a yes,
[6:31] right? Just knowing how to deal with
[6:33] people telling you no and how to deal
[6:34] with objections and how to respond
[6:36] quickly. It just trains your mind to be
[6:38] quick. And once you can sell, I mean,
[6:41] you have a job for life.
[6:43] >> Why is selling so important as it
[6:44] relates to becoming an entrepreneur?
[6:46] >> No business has ever succeeded without
[6:47] sales. And if you don't think your
[6:49] product or service is so good that
[6:52] you're dying to sell it, that you think
[6:55] that by talking to somebody about
[6:57] whatever product it is, you're not
[6:59] helping them, right? Cuz that's the
[7:01] whole point of sales. You know, when you
[7:02] were in that call center, what did you
[7:04] sell?
[7:04] >> Uh everything. Uh windows, doors,
[7:06] conservatories, double glazing.
[7:07] >> Right, right. And it was all about
[7:08] helping them. And you'd have the
[7:09] objections and I I'd go sell it I was
[7:11] selling magazines door-to-door. Once you
[7:13] learn how to sell, once you learn how to
[7:15] deal with objections, once you your mind
[7:18] is spinning waiting and reacting just
[7:21] like you did in a call center, what
[7:23] can't you sell?
[7:24] >> Are there any principles of being a good
[7:26] sales person? Or even in you know, on
[7:28] Shark Tank, when you see someone come in
[7:29] and they're great at sales, what are
[7:31] those principles?
[7:32] >> You care.
[7:34] You know your product. You want to help
[7:35] people. You're not trying to convince
[7:37] them to do something against their
[7:38] interest. You're trying to understand
[7:40] and learn their interest and help them
[7:42] achieve their goals or whatever your
[7:44] product may have happen to do. It may
[7:46] be, hey, you don't have to go to the
[7:47] store and pick up a back or it may be
[7:50] when you're selling something, you know,
[7:51] windows. You know, you don't want to
[7:53] look through those dirty windows. You
[7:54] know, you know there's a crack. You know
[7:56] your electricity bill is up way too high
[7:59] because of your windows and we're here
[8:00] to replace them and for only $17 a month
[8:03] will save you, you know, it'll more than
[8:05] pay for itself in the electricity bill,
[8:07] right? Like on a Shark Tank
[8:09] when somebody walked in and told me
[8:11] about their company, I knew exactly how
[8:13] I would sell it or could not sell it.
[8:15] And once you can do that,
[8:17] you're always going to be able to get a
[8:18] job. And if you are an entrepreneur or
[8:22] want to be an entrepreneur and you find
[8:23] something that you love and a product or
[8:26] service you love, then selling it's
[8:27] easy.
[8:28] >> You know, oftentimes we hear about
[8:30] people becoming
[8:31] wildly successful billionaires because
[8:33] they came up with some tech idea. It was
[8:35] their first thing, like a Zuckerberg.
[8:37] >> Right.
[8:37] >> And it becomes this huge success and
[8:38] they're like 25.
[8:39] >> Right.
[8:40] >> So sometimes when we're like 32,
[8:42] >> [laughter]
[8:42] >> So Mr. Ball, right?
[8:43] >> we missed the boat.
[8:45] >> Yeah.
[8:45] >> But then when I read your story, you
[8:47] know, I think you were like 31 years
[8:48] old, 32 years old and your first
[8:50] business was sold for $2 million, which
[8:51] is a
[8:52] >> It was sold for five and netted two.
[8:54] >> You mean netted two, okay. What is the
[8:55] big misconception that like young people
[8:58] these days have about what it takes,
[9:00] whether it's in terms of sacrifice or
[9:02] time or patience or compounding skills
[9:04] because they are incredibly impatient, I
[9:06] think.
[9:07] >> Yeah, I mean, I was just as impatient,
[9:09] but I think it really depends on your
[9:11] personal circumstances. Like I had
[9:13] nothing to lose. I was broke.
[9:16] You [laughter] know, I had gotten fired
[9:17] from a job, so starting MicroSolutions
[9:19] was an easy choice.
[9:21] I was living six guys in a three-bedroom
[9:23] apartment, didn't have my own bedroom,
[9:25] so it was like, why not? And I remember
[9:27] being terrified and thinking, okay, I've
[9:29] been in business 1 month, that's a win.
[9:31] 3 months, 6 months, 9 months. I have
[9:33] $15,000 in accounts receivable, you
[9:36] know, I'm on my way of moving out of
[9:38] this [ __ ] I live in. So, it really
[9:41] depends on your personal circumstances,
[9:42] but I I always tell young entrepreneurs,
[9:44] like if you're broke and you got nothing
[9:46] to lose,
[9:47] you know, even if you're working a job,
[9:49] like I was working as a bartender and
[9:51] you know, go out and do what you got to
[9:52] do and start what you've got to start. I
[9:55] think one of the big misconceptions is
[9:57] A, you have to raise money
[9:59] and B,
[10:01] if you do raise money, hitting big sales
[10:03] numbers is like the ultimate
[10:05] end-all-be-all as opposed to being
[10:07] profitable. For MicroSolutions, our
[10:10] entire 8-year existence, we were
[10:12] profitable every single month. I mean,
[10:14] we made sure that we sold enough and
[10:17] kept our costs in line so that I was
[10:19] going to be able to stay alive and and
[10:21] keep on moving forward. And I think kids
[10:23] today, they hear the stories about the
[10:25] Zuckerbergs and you know, the Sam
[10:27] Altmans and it's like billions of
[10:29] dollars by the time you're, you know,
[10:31] 12. Um and they think, okay, that's the
[10:35] way I'll do it. They went out to Silicon
[10:36] Valley and they raised all this money
[10:39] and they don't even realize that the
[10:41] greatest number of successful people
[10:43] aren't the billionaires, right? It's the
[10:45] people that have made a few million, 5
[10:47] million, 10 million, 25, 50, 100 million
[10:50] dollars. There's a multiple of number of
[10:53] people in that those set of
[10:55] circumstances and I'm not saying it's
[10:57] easy to get there, but it's doable,
[10:59] right? It's not a Silicon Valley dream,
[11:01] it's the American dream. And it's where
[11:03] you are and what you can do and what
[11:06] skills you have to accomplish it that
[11:08] makes the difference when you get
[11:10] started.
[11:10] >> What are if I'm trying to become a
[11:11] millionaire, let's say. What are the
[11:13] sort of consistent
[11:15] themes amongst all people that become
[11:17] millionaires, 10, you know, a 10
[11:19] millionaire, 100 millionaire? Are is
[11:20] there like certain principles that
[11:23] you're going to need regardless of what
[11:24] industry you're playing in? So, we
[11:25] talked about sales
[11:26] >> Yeah, sales obviously, but you know, to
[11:29] be a millionaire, I think you've just
[11:31] got to be really good at something.
[11:34] And then find a way to turn that
[11:35] something into a business.
[11:37] It may be sales, it may be programming,
[11:40] it may be tinkering, it may be drawing,
[11:43] it may be a create being a creator,
[11:45] whatever it may be, but
[11:47] if you're not good at it,
[11:50] there's no business that you start
[11:51] that's going to make you a millionaire.
[11:53] You know, you got to be good at
[11:54] something. This brings me to the the
[11:55] point about focus cuz lots of
[11:57] entrepreneurs, I'm sure you get this a
[11:58] lot in Shark Tank, but outside of the
[12:00] the tank is they think that having three
[12:03] ideas or three things
[12:05] is increasing their odds. Right. No,
[12:07] that's ridiculous. Or they say, um I
[12:09] want to be an entrepreneur, what should
[12:11] I do?
[12:11] >> [laughter]
[12:11] >> Right? What business should I start? I'm
[12:13] like, oh my god. No, you've got to find
[12:16] one thing and be great at it. Cuz once
[12:18] you're great at something, doors open up
[12:21] wide. Because if it's not your company,
[12:23] then they got to keep you because you're
[12:25] great. And whoever you compete with in
[12:28] that company, they're looking at it and
[12:30] saying, wow, you know, Steven's great,
[12:32] you know, or Mark's great. And then
[12:34] you're like, I'm great at this. Maybe if
[12:37] I want to be an entrepreneur, I can
[12:38] start a business about what I'm great
[12:40] at.
[12:40] >> What are you most likely to become great
[12:42] at?
[12:42] >> Where you spend your time.
[12:44] Like people think it's about passion.
[12:46] Oh, I'm passionate. I was passionate to
[12:48] be a baseball player,
[12:50] basketball player. Didn't help me at
[12:52] all, right? And I think when you realize
[12:55] where you're spending your time is where
[12:57] you find things that you like to do. And
[12:59] when you like to do something, if it's
[13:02] convertible to a business at all, then
[13:04] you keep on getting better and better
[13:06] and better cuz it's like anything else,
[13:08] whether it's tech, selling windows,
[13:11] right? Whatever it is, installing
[13:13] windows.
[13:14] When you start realizing you're better
[13:16] than the people around you, your
[13:18] confidence goes up, your willingness to
[13:20] learn more goes up, you want to find how
[13:22] you can be even better so you could be
[13:24] the absolute best. When those things
[13:26] happen,
[13:28] you can start a company and there's no
[13:30] limit to what you can do.
[13:32] >> I've spent a lot of time recently
[13:33] thinking about um long-termism as an
[13:35] idea. And what I mean by this is it's
[13:37] just interesting that when you take a
[13:38] longer time view to almost anything,
[13:40] like you have in many sort of endeavors
[13:42] in your career.
[13:43] >> Yeah. [laughter] Yeah, right.
[13:45] >> I was I was thinking about the Mavericks
[13:46] that um
[13:47] >> Yep.
[13:47] >> it's it's interesting how today's
[13:49] decisions change and how that creates a
[13:51] moat.
[13:51] >> Yeah.
[13:52] >> Because we we live in a world I think
[13:53] where people plan sometimes in quarterly
[13:55] cycles or sometimes they plan in 5-year
[13:57] seasons. But there's a couple of
[13:58] entrepreneurs that I look out into the
[13:59] world and think, "Oh, they were thinking
[14:01] like 10, 20 years."
[14:03] >> That wasn't me.
[14:04] >> Oh, really? [laughter] Yeah.
[14:05] >> No. What about with with What about with
[14:07] the Mavericks though?
[14:07] >> So when I got into the with the
[14:09] Mavericks and I bought the Mavericks,
[14:10] >> which is a basketball team for anyone
[14:12] >> Basketball team, yeah, in the NBA. And
[14:14] so I was a basketball junkie,
[14:16] >> Mhm.
[14:16] >> right? And I was a season ticket holder
[14:18] and went to a game and I was like,
[14:20] "Wait,
[14:21] maybe I could buy this team, right?" Cuz
[14:23] I just made all this money and I was
[14:24] like, "That sounds fun." And I did it
[14:27] not because it was a business, not
[14:28] because I saw this long, you know,
[14:30] horizon of owning the team. I thought,
[14:32] "This could just really be fun." And
[14:35] what could be better than, you know,
[14:36] going and shooting baskets with Dirk
[14:38] Nowitzki or Steve Nash and Michael
[14:40] Finley. So that's what got me into it.
[14:42] But I didn't even really look at it as a
[14:43] business. I looked at it more as
[14:46] an intellectual endeavor, right? An
[14:49] intellectual challenge. Can I take a
[14:51] team that was awful and got voted the
[14:53] worst professional sports franchise of
[14:55] the previous decade and turn it into a
[14:58] winning team? And that was my goal. And
[15:01] for a long time, it was stressful cuz
[15:04] I'm so competitive. Losing a game, it
[15:06] would take me 2 days to get over a loss.
[15:08] But then it got to the point, you know,
[15:10] not long before I sold where
[15:13] in my opinion, it went from being about
[15:15] basketball to being about valuations.
[15:18] And it went from, "Hey, I love
[15:19] basketball and this is all about
[15:21] basketball, to the NBA being more about,
[15:25] "Okay, how much are these teams worth?"
[15:26] And the conversation is not being about,
[15:28] "How can we make the game better?" But,
[15:30] "How can we make it more valuable?" And
[15:32] to me,
[15:33] that just created more stress, you know,
[15:35] because in order to compete, you had to
[15:37] be good at real estate and
[15:39] things that had nothing to do with
[15:40] basketball. So, I wish I could tell you
[15:42] that I was like, "Okay, I I have this
[15:44] 25-year horizon." But, I can't tell you
[15:46] I never thought I would sell. But, then
[15:49] things changed around me, and I guess,
[15:50] you know, having kids changed me as
[15:52] well.
[15:52] >> You bought the team for What was it?
[15:53] $200 million roughly?
[15:54] >> 285, yeah.
[15:55] >> And you sold it for
[15:57] >> 4.3.
[15:58] >> Billion?
[15:58] >> Yeah.
[16:00] >> What I find interesting is the point you
[16:01] just made about you'll become great at
[16:04] the things where you want to spend your
[16:05] time on them. And again, the point you
[16:06] made before that was entrepreneurs, when
[16:08] they come to you and say, "I want to be
[16:09] an entrepreneur." And then they go
[16:11] looking for an idea, tend to fail. This
[16:13] is a prime example of you doing exactly
[16:14] what you described, where it was
[16:16] somewhere you wanted to spend your time,
[16:17] which meant that you became good at it.
[16:20] >> Yeah. Yeah.
[16:21] >> I saw how the team's performance
[16:24] drastically improved over the years that
[16:25] were
[16:26] you were the majority owner, but also
[16:28] some of the things you implemented
[16:29] around data
[16:31] and performance, um, and technology into
[16:33] the Mavs,
[16:35] and it becomes a great business.
[16:37] But, you never
[16:38] >> yeah. Not a Turned out Turned out to be
[16:39] a great business, yeah. You just don't
[16:41] know, but when you're doing something
[16:42] you love, right? It's the old cliché,
[16:43] you know, you don't you don't work
[16:44] [clears throat] a day in your life, but
[16:45] it's true.
[16:46] >> How do you define the success? Waking up
[16:48] in the morning with a smile on your
[16:49] face, excited about the day.
[16:51] >> Mhm.
[16:51] >> [clears throat]
[16:52] >> And that's hard.
[16:53] Most people can't do that. Most people
[16:55] look and they say, "Okay, I got to go to
[16:56] work."
[16:57] You know, I got to do this. I've got
[16:59] these five things I got to get done and
[17:00] or, you know, whatever. I was, even when
[17:03] I was broke, I was fired up, you know,
[17:06] and the Mavs,
[17:08] you know, got me It was It was amazing
[17:10] cuz sports are so much different than
[17:12] every other business. You can work for a
[17:14] company like Google and they have the
[17:15] best quarter ever or they set records,
[17:17] you know, Apple becomes the most
[17:18] valuable company in the world, nobody
[17:20] throws a parade.
[17:22] >> [laughter]
[17:22] >> You win a championship, the whole city's
[17:24] on fire and they're throwing parades and
[17:26] the a half a million a million people
[17:28] converge on downtown in 100 degrees heat
[17:31] to to scream at the players and
[17:33] everybody. So, this is just so different
[17:35] and that that's what made the Mavs
[17:36] special.
[17:37] >> Is that amongst your best days in your
[17:39] life winning the championship?
[17:40] >> Uh business-wise, yeah, for sure. Yeah,
[17:42] and I'll tell you this, you know,
[17:44] it was so anti-climactic internally for
[17:47] me. I've seen so many games where we
[17:49] thought we were going to win and ended
[17:51] up losing them and they had LeBron and,
[17:53] you know, uh etc. and I was like, okay,
[17:57] they're we're up by 10 points with 30
[17:59] seconds to go. There's no chance that
[18:01] we're losing this and then they hit a
[18:03] three, I'm like, oh, shut the [ __ ] up,
[18:04] Mark, right? And then we got to the
[18:06] point where we won, I'm like, okay, the
[18:08] clouds should, you know, open up and the
[18:10] sun should shine and I just realized,
[18:13] oh, this is great. I'm screaming and
[18:14] yelling, but
[18:16] now what?
[18:17] >> Oh, [ __ ] Yeah.
[18:18] >> And it wasn't so much how I felt and
[18:20] hugging all the guys and hugging
[18:22] everybody, but it was how the city felt
[18:25] and that's what really made it special
[18:27] when I would take the trophy to schools,
[18:30] I would take it to bars, I would take it
[18:32] to restaurants, I would take it to my
[18:34] kids' events, whatever it was and to see
[18:37] their eyes light up. Just that communal
[18:39] joy, that's what made it special.
[18:42] >> You said there you know, there's many
[18:43] people that are listening that are
[18:44] basically trapped. They they feel
[18:46] trapped. They feel stuck in a 9-to-5
[18:48] job. They living paycheck to paycheck.
[18:51] Um I've been there, you've been there.
[18:54] What advice would you have for them?
[18:55] They might have
[18:57] a thousand dollars in savings
[18:58] >> Mhm.
[18:59] >> and they're trying to get out of that
[19:00] situation. Is there some type of life
[19:01] life raft? Are there are there
[19:02] principles of how to escape?
[19:04] >> I say this to new college graduates all
[19:06] the time. Don't go get the best job cuz
[19:09] that's the hardest to find. Don't get
[19:11] the perfect job cuz those are hard to
[19:12] find. Just get a job. And when you have
[19:15] a job, just work to be really good at
[19:18] it. The second part of that is you have
[19:19] to be really honest with yourself, cuz
[19:21] nobody looks at the job they're doing
[19:22] and says, "I suck." Right? They're like,
[19:24] "Oh, I'm great at this. They just don't
[19:26] realize it." No, you have to be honest
[19:28] and talk to people around you. But when
[19:29] you're really good at something, that's
[19:31] when doors do open up. And even in the
[19:34] worst possible job, you know, you could
[19:36] be working at a McDonald's, at a Dairy
[19:38] Queen, but there's a path. You know, and
[19:40] if you understand how to move up that
[19:42] path, even though your life mission
[19:43] isn't to be the manager of of a
[19:45] McDonald's or a Dairy Queen or whatever,
[19:47] the fact that you can show a future
[19:49] employer that you moved up the line, and
[19:52] then when they ask for a reference, they
[19:54] said, "Steven was incredibly valuable.
[19:56] We're really sorry, you know, that he's
[19:58] leaving. We tried to keep him."
[20:00] That's what you need, and that can
[20:01] happen in 2 3 years. It's just most
[20:03] people don't want to think like that.
[20:05] You know, you get in your head and you
[20:07] get inside yourself. It's just like,
[20:09] "Oh, this is miserable, yada yada yada."
[20:11] >> And it's funny looking backwards on
[20:12] journeys like yours, where it's often
[20:15] jobs that most people wouldn't think
[20:17] were glamorous that end up being the
[20:18] most sort of important or formative to
[20:20] your skill stack. You were talking about
[20:21] door-to-door sales people. You mentioned
[20:23] what is it, Dairy Queens there or like
[20:24] McDonald's. I I think I remember that
[20:26] Jeff Bezos worked at McDonald's, and
[20:28] this is really where he learned about
[20:30] this sort of like customer obsession,
[20:31] customer service.
[20:32] >> Yes. You start to understand. Yeah, boy,
[20:35] Marley's pub. [laughter]
[20:38] But yeah, you learn how to deal with
[20:40] people, how to deal with customers. That
[20:43] can happen in any job. It's just I read
[20:45] this book in high school. It was called
[20:47] Why Men Rebel. And it said, "Most people
[20:50] have aspirations that are up here, and
[20:53] when their real lives they feel like are
[20:55] down here here,
[20:56] >> Mhm.
[20:57] >> they you know, a lot of people won't
[20:59] just accept it okay, cuz no one wants to
[21:01] think, "I'm not going to do or not to
[21:03] accomplish anything." So that's when
[21:05] they start fighting and rebelling and
[21:07] joining, you know, groups that are
[21:09] counter to what's happening in society.
[21:11] And And I think understanding
[21:15] that in yourself, you know, you have to
[21:16] be at least self-aware a little bit to
[21:19] understand that
[21:20] it's okay to be frustrated, but you
[21:22] can't let it overtake your life. You've
[21:24] got to be able to put yourself in a
[21:26] position to at least feel better about
[21:28] yourself, even if it's not perfect.
[21:30] >> Did you rebel?
[21:32] >> Uh my whole life, yeah. I was always
[21:35] counterculture.
[21:36] >> [laughter]
[21:37] >> I remember being in high school, and I
[21:39] was 4 in shorter, 25 lb heavier.
[21:44] You can't tell here, but I these two
[21:45] teeth are caps. And cuz my parents
[21:48] didn't have any money, I ran into a
[21:49] bicycle, it broke my teeth, and I got
[21:52] caps that were aluminum
[21:55] steel. That's what they were. They were
[21:57] steel. And I'm 16 years old. Like and
[22:00] people like my friends were like,
[22:02] "Ah, the reflection."
[22:03] But you just
[22:05] >> [sighs and gasps]
[22:06] >> You just have to find your path. You
[22:07] can't get down on yourself.
[22:09] >> One of the things that a lot of people
[22:10] who feel stuck um are probably thinking
[22:13] about is they're probably wait trying to
[22:14] wait mentally the amount of sacrifice
[22:16] it's going to take. And when I I've
[22:18] heard you talk about hard work and the
[22:20] sacrifices that you had to take to build
[22:22] yourself from this sort of 22-year-old
[22:24] who
[22:25] is in Pittsburgh, I believe at the time,
[22:28] to starting your first business which
[22:29] ended up being acquired Micro Solutions.
[22:31] What does the sacrifice look like? If I
[22:33] was a fly on the wall when you I'm
[22:35] presumably had a job at that time, and
[22:37] then you started building the business.
[22:39] What would I have seen in terms of your
[22:41] How did your life look?
[22:42] >> So, when I got to Dallas, moved in with,
[22:45] like I said, five roommates, didn't have
[22:47] a bed, I just slept on the floor. I
[22:49] mean, that's example of sacrifice,
[22:51] living in a [ __ ] Got a job working
[22:53] at night as a bartender, but then almost
[22:55] immediately got a job working at a
[22:57] software store. And that was going to be
[22:59] for me my first step into a real job,
[23:02] right, where I could have a future. But
[23:03] I got fired 9 months later. And
[23:06] >> Cool.
[23:06] >> I wanted to move out of the [ __ ] I
[23:08] lived in, and I was going to be looking
[23:09] at a $1,500 commission, which would have
[23:12] done it for me. So I called my boss, and
[23:14] I'm like, "I need to go pick up this
[23:15] check. You'll make money, I'll make
[23:17] money. Can I have somebody to cover
[23:19] opening up the retail store that I
[23:20] worked in?" And he was like, "No, I need
[23:22] you in the store."
[23:24] And I made the executive decision to go
[23:26] pick up the check, thinking when I
[23:27] brought it in,
[23:29] everything would be well. He fired me on
[23:30] the spot.
[23:32] Fired me, and I'm like, "Okay, you know,
[23:34] I suck as an employee.
[23:36] >> [clears throat]
[23:36] >> This is not what I want. I'm going to
[23:38] start my own company." And I don't know
[23:40] if I'd call it sacrifice, but I'd call
[23:42] it deferring immediate gratification.
[23:45] You know, I knew that it was going to
[23:46] take time for me to get any level of
[23:49] success to move out of that apartment. I
[23:52] was going to have to sell hard, learn
[23:54] stuff I didn't understand. This was the
[23:56] early days of the PC revolution when PCs
[23:58] were starting to happen. I don't know
[24:00] the [ __ ] but either does anybody else.
[24:02] In my mind, when it came to software,
[24:05] there was only going to be one person
[24:07] who understood any given software better
[24:09] than me, and that would be the person
[24:10] who wrote it.
[24:12] And that if I busted my ass, I was tied
[24:14] for second, right? When that's new
[24:16] program like Lotus 1-2-3, if you
[24:18] remember that one. Kid, no. What? Shut
[24:20] up.
[24:21] It was a very It was a second
[24:23] spreadsheet. That was a big spreadsheet.
[24:24] And so anyways, my idea was I was going
[24:26] to put in the time to learn that
[24:28] software, however many software packages
[24:30] that is, more than everybody. And I
[24:33] literally would stay in that retail
[24:35] store overnight, or I'd take the
[24:37] computer back to the [ __ ] apartment
[24:39] and just sit there and teach myself and
[24:40] teach myself. Read the manuals over and
[24:43] over because if I can get ahead of
[24:45] everybody else to be in second by
[24:46] myself, I would have a huge edge over
[24:49] everybody else in my
[24:51] in for MicroSolutions. Just the same
[24:53] with AI. New AI comes out, new model
[24:56] comes out, new software comes out,
[24:59] there's the creator and everybody else
[25:00] is tied for second and I'm going to kick
[25:02] their ass by learning it faster, better.
[25:04] >> And AI is obviously like the the time of
[25:06] the moment in business. How's How
[25:08] significant do you think this is?
[25:10] >> Um I mean, I've been in the tech
[25:11] business a long time. This dwarfs every
[25:14] everything else in aggregate. This is
[25:16] Yeah, this is so much bigger. With AI,
[25:18] you can just say, "Hey, I need to learn
[25:19] more about Stephen Bartlett. Tell me
[25:21] everything there is to know." It's able
[25:23] to make me a lot more productive. And I
[25:25] think it would make anybody more
[25:26] productive and I think that's the beauty
[25:28] of of artificial intelligence and from
[25:31] an educational perspective of done
[25:32] right, it's a democratizer of
[25:35] information. You have access to every
[25:37] library, every book, every speech
[25:40] everywhere and so if you're interested,
[25:43] there's nothing you can't learn.
[25:45] >> Everywhere I go around the world, people
[25:46] are asking me whether this is this
[25:47] technology is the real deal and business
[25:49] owners and entrepreneurs are asking like
[25:51] how they should be responding in a
[25:53] moment like this. Cuz in my life, I'm 30
[25:55] 34 years old now, there's almost no
[25:57] precedents of such a disruptive
[25:58] technology. It can be quite threatening
[26:00] to many people because it there's this
[26:03] sort of process of they call it creative
[26:04] destruction where it like rips down the
[26:06] old way of doing things.
[26:07] >> sure.
[26:07] >> And in that, it could be ripping down
[26:09] your identity, your degree, your job.
[26:12] >> And so there was a psychologist called
[26:13] Leon Festinger that coined a term called
[26:15] cognitive dissonance which even hearing
[26:16] the term helped me understand myself and
[26:18] my feelings which is the the discomfort
[26:20] you feel when something sort of
[26:21] threatens or conflicts with what you
[26:22] know. The whole world is experiencing
[26:24] this right now.
[26:25] >> Yep. All at once globally.
[26:27] >> And what people are doing some people
[26:29] are doing is they, you know, in an
[26:31] attempt to alleviate the dissonance,
[26:32] bury their heads in the sand, deny it.
[26:35] Not It won't come for me. I'll be fine.
[26:37] >> Right. Yeah, that's not going to happen.
[26:39] Yeah, not going to happen. Like For me
[26:41] with AI, I I see it as an opportunity.
[26:43] Wherever there's change, there's
[26:44] opportunity. You know, something's
[26:46] changing and to your point the cognitive
[26:48] dissonance, people are are avoiding it
[26:50] and not dealing with it at all. And then
[26:53] there's others who are picking up on it
[26:55] and saying, let's go. Let's go. And
[26:57] that's always been my approach because
[26:59] you know most people aren't going to do
[27:01] the work.
[27:01] >> Yeah.
[27:02] >> You know, there was an old basketball
[27:04] coach, Bobby Knight from Indiana
[27:05] University. And when I was in college,
[27:08] he was on 60 Minutes and he had this one
[27:10] line. And my jaw just dropped. I went,
[27:12] oh [ __ ] that's it. That's my line. He
[27:14] goes, everybody's got the will to win.
[27:17] But it's only those with the will to
[27:18] prepare that actually do win.
[27:21] And I'm like,
[27:23] bingo. That's all I needed. You know,
[27:24] you get one little line as a kid in your
[27:26] head and I'm just like, let's go.
[27:28] >> Problem is you never see people prepare.
[27:31] >> You may not see it. Right. Yeah, so
[27:32] there's no role model in preparation,
[27:34] right?
[27:34] >> gets to see you going and taking the
[27:35] software from the store and taking it
[27:36] home to the show apartment cuz there was
[27:38] no cameras, there was no interest at
[27:39] that point.
[27:40] >> Yep.
[27:40] >> So like we almost don't appreciate that
[27:42] that's part of the win.
[27:43] But they probably saw you on the like
[27:44] the double-decker bus with the trophy
[27:46] with the mask. [laughter]
[27:47] >> Yeah, right.
[27:48] >> So, you know, this is the illusion of
[27:49] like success, I guess, in this context.
[27:51] >> That's why we have conversations like
[27:53] this.
[27:53] >> Yeah.
[27:53] >> Yeah, to convey that. That's why you've
[27:55] been so successful.
[27:56] >> Well, no, it's it but but this is why I
[27:57] love having these conversations because
[27:59] it it's almost counter narrative to
[28:01] Instagram
[28:02] >> Mhm.
[28:02] >> to hear that you spent years and years
[28:04] >> it's even worse. Like, okay, so my
[28:05] 16-year-old son, 17-year-old, just
[28:07] turned, right? Drove me nuts because,
[28:10] you know how the algorithms work, right?
[28:13] Whatever you see, you get more of. And
[28:15] each of us have our own unique algorithm
[28:17] on Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, right?
[28:19] Nobody sees the same stuff. And
[28:21] obviously he was interested in business
[28:23] because he would come up to me and show
[28:25] me these get-rich-quick schemes. You
[28:27] know, you're going to drop ship. You're
[28:29] going to do, you know, shoe drops. He
[28:31] even There was one where they had a
[28:33] blaster, you know, water blaster so you
[28:35] can clean sidewalks. And I'm like, no,
[28:38] right? If those were good businesses,
[28:40] they wouldn't be telling you about them.
[28:42] They would just be doing them. Or make
[28:44] all this money in the stock market.
[28:45] Nobody who has an edge in the stock
[28:47] market is selling it. They're using it.
[28:49] And the the point of all that is
[28:53] people, particularly now in this social
[28:54] media world where you just get more of
[28:56] what you want, they get misled.
[28:59] >> Mhm.
[28:59] >> Section 230, the protections on the
[29:01] internet, and the fact that that
[29:03] protects algorithms, I think really is a
[29:05] big part of holding kids back these
[29:07] days. Because that's why you talk about
[29:10] not seeing people do the preparatory
[29:12] work. You know, not seeing what happens
[29:14] behind the scenes. Because that doesn't
[29:17] get more views or more engagement on
[29:19] Instagram or Tik Tok.
[29:21] >> Mhm.
[29:21] >> No one's going to Okay, Mark's looking
[29:23] at this, reading a manual.
[29:25] No, right? And it's tougher for society
[29:28] today. You know, we talk about socialism
[29:30] or capitalism.
[29:33] No one knows what it actually means.
[29:34] They just whatever is presented to them
[29:37] in, you know, a 10-second bite, and you
[29:39] see it enough,
[29:40] >> Mhm.
[29:40] >> you presume it must be true.
[29:42] >> That's why I think I asked about
[29:43] long-termism is because I'm trying to
[29:45] figure out what the sort of, you know,
[29:46] you said earlier, you said, "You know
[29:47] most people won't do it."
[29:49] And right now with algorithms and a
[29:51] certain sort of online narrative, that I
[29:53] think there becomes like a winning
[29:55] opportunity to do the opposite. So,
[29:57] get-rich-quick schemes, the opposite of
[29:58] that is like taking a long-term
[30:00] approach, doing the preparation,
[30:02] mastering a skill,
[30:03] >> Yep.
[30:03] >> and setting yourself a 10-year time
[30:04] horizon as opposed to like I'm going to
[30:06] be rich next year.
[30:06] >> Even Charlie Munger [clears throat] used
[30:07] to say it all the time, right? There's
[30:09] no delayed gratification anymore. Never.
[30:12] And if you don't realize you have to do
[30:14] the work first, you're not going to get
[30:16] the gratification.
[30:16] >> And Charlie and
[30:18] and Warren are like obsessed with
[30:19] compounding.
[30:20] >> Oh, yeah, for sure. And they they were
[30:22] the kings of it, yeah, [laughter]
[30:23] for sure.
[30:24] >> That's one of the things I I always
[30:25] found fascinating about them when I
[30:26] started reading about why they were such
[30:27] great investors is that I read that
[30:28] they'd be like a couple of years where
[30:30] they wouldn't invest any money at all.
[30:31] >> No.
[30:32] >> What the [ __ ]
[30:33] >> No, I
[30:34] >> [laughter]
[30:34] >> and I've tried to do the same thing. And
[30:36] again, just trying to not Don't just
[30:38] jump into the market. Jump in the
[30:39] market. There's always going to be a
[30:41] bear market, and that's where the money
[30:43] was made. During COVID, you know, that's
[30:45] I just started buying up everything when
[30:47] it hit, and I crushed it. You know, you
[30:49] can say that's wrong in some respects,
[30:51] right? But now it's just like you see
[30:53] these stocks and everything just go, you
[30:55] know, AI-related stuff just going to the
[30:57] moon and all this debt. I'm like, just
[30:59] be patient. You can invest a little bit
[31:01] for the fun of it, but be patient. Have
[31:03] some cash because at some point it's
[31:05] going to turn. And when that happens,
[31:07] that's when the real magic happens, when
[31:09] all the real money is made. The delayed
[31:11] gratification.
[31:12] >> You do think we're in a bubble, don't
[31:13] you? I heard you talk about this.
[31:14] >> I think we're in a bubble, but not the
[31:17] same as the internet bubble back in
[31:18] 2000, 2001.
[31:20] >> [snorts]
[31:20] >> I think what's different now is
[31:23] everything's a meme stock.
[31:26] Bitcoin is a meme stock, right? Pick
[31:29] Micron, you know, pick Google, Apple,
[31:32] they're meme stocks. And the reason I
[31:34] say that is by watching how stocks move
[31:37] with just a little bit of news. So, a
[31:40] company might miss earnings by a penny
[31:43] or only beat by a penny, and the stock
[31:45] will be down 18%.
[31:48] The intrinsic value of that company
[31:49] hasn't changed 18%. It's just that
[31:52] buyers and sellers move in and move out
[31:54] very quickly based off of anticipated um
[31:58] information as opposed to the net
[32:00] present value of the future cash flows
[32:01] and all that. We're trading them like
[32:03] baseball cards.
[32:04] You know, there's no intrinsic value to
[32:06] this. It's just perceived value and what
[32:08] you think somebody else will pay for it.
[32:10] And I think we're in a bubble for that
[32:12] real very reason. What causes it to
[32:16] burst? I have no idea.
[32:17] >> Because we said, you know, this
[32:18] technology, AI, is without precedents.
[32:21] Uh you know, it is quite tempting for
[32:23] someone like me to put, you know, put a
[32:24] couple of dollars into
[32:25] >> Yeah, of course. Yeah. Yeah, for sure.
[32:28] >> Because you think maybe this is the like
[32:29] the last technology.
[32:30] >> Right, because even, you know,
[32:32] I don't think it'll be the last
[32:33] technology cuz it'll always Something
[32:35] will always happen. There'll always be
[32:36] somebody smarter than the AI, I believe.
[32:39] But look at Dell and Amazon. They were
[32:42] companies whose stocks went from way up
[32:45] high, got crushed when the internet
[32:47] bubble burst. Amazon was losing money
[32:49] hand over foot. I mean, people used to
[32:51] give them a hard time because they were
[32:53] losing so much money.
[32:55] Now they were trillions of dollars and
[32:56] if you would just stuck it out with
[32:57] them. So there will will be winners. I
[33:00] just don't know which company is it?
[33:01] Anthropic? Is it Open AI? I don't know.
[33:04] >> You think there'll always be someone
[33:05] smarter than the AI?
[33:06] >> Yeah, for sure.
[33:07] >> What do you mean by that? I've never
[33:08] heard that.
[33:09] >> Take a model
[33:11] from Anthropic, AI model for Anthropic
[33:13] or Google Gemini or ChatGPT Open AI,
[33:16] right? It gets released. It's
[33:18] immediately out of date.
[33:19] >> Mhm.
[33:20] >> [clears throat]
[33:20] >> Immediately. The brilliance of this
[33:22] conversation is not incorporated in any
[33:25] model anywhere. Right? AI is not smart.
[33:29] It just knows how to use statistics
[33:32] basically to predict the next word. It's
[33:35] predictive. It's not deterministic.
[33:37] Meaning if you asked
[33:39] four different AIs the same question,
[33:41] you're going to get four different
[33:42] answers. If you modify a question to the
[33:46] same AI
[33:47] just marginally that shouldn't change
[33:49] the meaning, it'll give you a different
[33:50] answer every time.
[33:52] That doesn't work in the real world. AI
[33:54] doesn't know the consequences of its
[33:56] actions. AI doesn't have inherent
[33:58] ethics. AI, you know, can't take video
[34:02] and consume it or absorb it, at least
[34:03] not yet. If I'm standing at a four-way
[34:06] intersection and there's cars going back
[34:07] and forth and I have video in my phone
[34:10] and, you know, the best models ever and
[34:13] I have a seeing eye dog right here
[34:14] >> Mhm.
[34:15] >> I'm letting the seeing eye dog take me
[34:16] across the street before I let the AI
[34:18] take me across the street. It's always
[34:20] going to be behind. There's always going
[34:22] to be a latency and so many things can
[34:24] change in a blink of the eye in this
[34:26] world that there's always going to be a
[34:28] human who says, "Uh, you know what? I
[34:31] can do this better because what all
[34:33] these other companies are competing with
[34:35] their models to try to, you know, hit
[34:37] these benchmarks and outperforming these
[34:38] benchmarks or do um recursive
[34:41] self-improvement, so it just keeps on
[34:43] training itself more and more. It
[34:45] doesn't have access. A 2-year-old
[34:47] sitting on a high chair with a sippy cup
[34:51] knows that if it pushes the sippy cup
[34:53] off the high chair,
[34:55] Mom's going to come running and it knows
[34:57] it's going to crack up, right? AI is not
[34:59] going to figure that out ever.
[35:01] >> Do you know if you if you plot if you
[35:03] think of it as like an exponential
[35:04] technology, this is what I always I
[35:06] always try and cuz it's tempting to
[35:08] think of it as a sort of a static state.
[35:10] I'm thinking of like a graph here, like
[35:12] where it kind of goes like this.
[35:14] But these technologies from even what
[35:15] I've observed with every new release
[35:17] seem to be almost like this.
[35:20] So it's quite hard like even think about
[35:22] full self-driving. Like my Tesla drives
[35:24] itself and apparently the the crash rate
[35:26] is significantly lower than if a human
[35:27] was driving. Of course. If I imagine it
[35:30] as an exponential,
[35:32] at some point
[35:34] this shit's going to be pretty
[35:35] >> Except
[35:36] >> Yeah. Except
[35:38] there just like you see the protest
[35:40] about data centers.
[35:41] >> Yeah.
[35:42] >> When we talked about why men rebel, a
[35:44] book I haven't thought about since high
[35:46] school, right?
[35:47] People are going to rebel.
[35:50] People are going to create their own
[35:51] communities where there is if it's that
[35:53] dominant, there'll be people say, "I
[35:55] don't want that in my life." There'll be
[35:57] communes and kibbutzes where there's no
[36:00] technology. There There's something
[36:01] called adversarial um actions for AI
[36:05] where
[36:06] like with full self-driving, there's
[36:08] certain things that when it sees it,
[36:10] >> Mhm.
[36:11] >> [clears throat]
[36:11] >> it reacts in the wrong way.
[36:13] And once you know how to do that and you
[36:16] can cause AI to do things that it
[36:19] doesn't want to do or you don't expect
[36:21] it to do, then you're going to get
[36:22] people who do that all the time. And
[36:25] you're [clears throat] also seeing it,
[36:26] when I go and talk to um hospitals and
[36:29] researchers for cost plus drugs, right?
[36:32] What I tell them is you're crazy if you
[36:34] publish everything or if you try to
[36:35] patent everything cuz it's immediately
[36:37] available to every model and you lose
[36:39] control of your intellectual property.
[36:41] And you're starting to see more and more
[36:43] and more people instead of patenting it,
[36:45] it's a trade secret. Instead of
[36:47] publishing it, I'll put it in my model
[36:49] or I'll sell it to you. And so you get
[36:51] this bifurcation
[36:53] um with each model where
[36:55] Gemini is not trained on the same data
[36:57] as ChatGPT, as Claude, as Grok, etc. And
[37:02] if they're all giving you different
[37:03] answers,
[37:05] kind of defeats the purpose in a lot of
[37:06] respects. And if they can't deal with
[37:08] live video or they're always have
[37:10] latency. And look, when I say this, I'm
[37:13] not saying AI is useless. No, exact
[37:16] opposite. AI is incredible. But like
[37:19] having four of the smartest people next
[37:20] to you,
[37:22] they're not all going to give you the
[37:23] same answer and you have to have the
[37:25] skill set to be able to ask the right
[37:26] question.
[37:27] >> Mhm.
[37:27] >> And ask the right question of multiple
[37:29] sources and be able to take the output
[37:32] from each of them, the responses from
[37:33] each of them, and come to a conclusion
[37:35] that you think is in your best interest
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[39:55] What do you make of all these AI CEOs
[39:57] saying that it's going to
[39:58] transform how we work, and there's not
[40:01] really going to be any jobs left, and
[40:02] >> Well, it will transform how we work, but
[40:05] I think there'll be creative destruction
[40:07] like you You know, I went to school at
[40:08] Indiana University in Bloomington,
[40:09] Indiana, and right by Bloomington is
[40:12] Terre Haute, Indiana. Terre Haute,
[40:13] Indiana used to be the location for RCA
[40:17] records, which then became CDs, right?
[40:20] And then they made DVDs. You probably
[40:23] don't even remember that [ __ ] right?
[40:24] >> I remember [clears throat] CDs and DVDs,
[40:26] but cassettes are
[40:27] Yeah.
[40:28] >> gone, right? And but it's not like there
[40:30] aren't people making money on music.
[40:32] >> Mhm.
[40:33] >> And so there will be creative
[40:35] destruction. There will be new things
[40:36] that pop up that leverages new
[40:38] technology that create different kinds
[40:40] of jobs. Is the path going to be painful
[40:42] for people? Yeah, just like the people
[40:43] in Terre Haute, Indiana. It's going to
[40:45] be painful.
[40:45] >> Cuz this technology feels so different
[40:48] because um when you start to think about
[40:50] how much of our lives run both on the
[40:53] internet, but just based on
[40:54] intelligence. Like driving is not
[40:56] something I considered would be impacted
[40:58] by AI, for example. And then now I'm
[41:00] experie- you know, I heard you talking
[41:02] about your use of AI agents, but I've
[41:04] got I know 25 AI agents on my phone now
[41:06] going through all of my stuff. It's
[41:07] crazy. It's [laughter] amazing. It's
[41:08] amazing. But you go, "Fuck. Oh my god.
[41:10] Like
[41:11] >> But it's not smart.
[41:13] I hadn't read a non-fiction book in 25
[41:16] years. And the only reason I had the
[41:18] time to do it was I have these agents.
[41:21] All the [ __ ] that I had on my to-do list
[41:23] that I would have to go search for this,
[41:25] read that, do this.
[41:27] Boom. My agents, just like I'm sure you
[41:29] use it for the same thing, right? All
[41:31] the tedious [ __ ] work that you
[41:33] didn't want to do or always couldn't get
[41:36] to or thought you had to hire somebody
[41:38] for, now you have an agent that does it.
[41:41] And your biggest decision, do you use
[41:42] Grokbot? Do you use, you know, dot? Do
[41:44] you use, you know, co-work? And then you
[41:47] try them all and you see they all give
[41:49] you a different answer. And then you
[41:50] have to use your brain again.
[41:54] >> But you said that you would have
[41:55] otherwise hired people to do some of
[41:57] those things, right?
[41:58] >> I would have Yes, that's true. But now I
[42:00] can do get more done, just like you can
[42:02] get more done. And when you get more
[42:04] done using your agents, you have better
[42:06] opportunities to use what you know to
[42:08] create other things. So I might have
[42:10] brought in an intern and paid them $15
[42:13] an hour or $20 an hour, whatever it was.
[42:16] Now, maybe it creates a new business
[42:18] idea. And with that new business idea, I
[42:20] need to hire people to do that. Because
[42:23] So, I'll give you a perfect example of
[42:24] what I use agents for. For Cost Plus
[42:26] Drugs.com, I always, you know, I'm
[42:28] trying to break the healthcare industry.
[42:30] And there's these big conglomerates who
[42:32] I think are the real problem. And now I
[42:34] have an agent, every time they get sued,
[42:37] it comes to me and tells me. Every time
[42:39] there's a bid that they're bidding on,
[42:41] right? It comes and the agents tell me,
[42:43] and I can use the agent to create an
[42:45] email to send to the Open Records Act to
[42:48] get me copies of all those contracts.
[42:50] [ __ ] I could never have imagined doing
[42:52] before unless I hired somebody, but that
[42:54] meant I had to take the time to hire
[42:55] them and train them and manage them, so
[42:58] it never got done.
[42:59] >> Mhm. [clears throat]
[42:59] >> Now it gets done, and now I have other
[43:02] types of people that I hired to do it to
[43:04] different things that are at a
[43:06] completely different level. And it takes
[43:08] less of my time to do all of that.
[43:10] >> And for your son, your son's 16?
[43:12] >> 17, just turned 17.
[43:13] >> 17. When he's on When he's saying, "Dad,
[43:15] you know,
[43:16] you know a lot about the future. You've
[43:17] been able to predict the future several
[43:19] times. So, what should I be focused on,
[43:21] Dad?"
[43:21] >> He's 17. My kids are 17, 20, and 23. The
[43:25] one thing they never say is, "Dad, you
[43:28] know a lot about
[43:30] fill in the blank."
[43:31] Never. Never ever. My oldest daughter,
[43:35] though, when she was at um college, I
[43:37] told her she had to learn how to do
[43:38] agents. And she was like, "Yeah,
[43:40] whatever, whatever." And then I went and
[43:41] watched one of her presentations, and
[43:43] she was like, "Yeah, I got an agent to
[43:44] do this. [laughter] I got an agent to do
[43:46] that." I was like, proud papa, right?
[43:48] But yeah, but I tell them, "You have to
[43:50] learn this stuff because if you don't,
[43:53] the person who does
[43:55] is going to be so much more productive
[43:56] than you are. If you have access to a
[43:58] smartphone or a PC or laptop at the
[44:01] library that has access to Claude,
[44:03] Gemini, etc.,
[44:04] >> [gasps]
[44:05] >> there's no question you can't ask.
[44:07] >> Does hard work matter?
[44:08] >> Yes, of course. You got to take the time
[44:11] to ask the question. You have to take
[44:13] the time to consume the information it
[44:15] gives you and get and learn how to ask
[44:17] better and better questions to get
[44:18] better at it. But people always talk
[44:20] about mentors and having access to a
[44:23] network. I never had any of that [ __ ]
[44:25] right? I just sat and learned and read
[44:27] and did it by reading. Now, I don't go
[44:30] grab a book, right? I just go right to,
[44:32] you know, Clyde or co-work and I'm like,
[44:34] find all about this and tell me what
[44:36] Warren Buffett thought about that.
[44:38] It's insane.
[44:39] >> What does the edge become in such a
[44:40] world where everybody has the same
[44:42] information?
[44:43] >> Because you've got to know how to take
[44:45] what you've read or seen and integrate
[44:48] it and apply it to what you're trying to
[44:50] accomplish.
[44:51] Because it's cool, like I can say, write
[44:53] me a business plan for this business and
[44:57] it'll create all the agents, it'll
[44:58] create the bots, it'll do all that
[45:00] stuff. But I've got to be the one to
[45:02] say, this is right, this is wrong, this
[45:04] is right. And then I've got to be the
[45:06] one that goes out and sells it or
[45:07] teaches the agents how to sell when we
[45:09] get to that point so that the business
[45:12] could actually work. AI is not smart. It
[45:16] just grinds and grinds and grinds. When
[45:20] you hear about the risk profile, the
[45:22] doomers, right? When you When I talk to
[45:25] security people, I ask this very
[45:26] specific question. We're hearing these
[45:28] stories about AI breaking in here or
[45:30] doing that. Did they invent anything?
[45:33] Did they come up with a new approach for
[45:35] hacking into this system or for stealing
[45:37] this data?
[45:38] No.
[45:40] They didn't do anything new. What they
[45:41] did was get the same list that every
[45:43] security person has and because you can
[45:46] create an unlimited number of agents to
[45:48] go through and try it in every possible
[45:50] combination, it's all brute force. Where
[45:53] AI has a huge advantage is in doing
[45:55] brute force approaches to things
[45:58] because, you know, we'd always done
[46:00] security by trying to catch all the
[46:02] problems, knowing that, you know, unless
[46:04] it's a DDoS attack, right? Nobody has
[46:07] the the resources to do a full brute
[46:09] force to have more resources than we do.
[46:11] >> Mhm.
[46:11] >> Those days are gone, but what we don't
[46:13] talk about is using that same brute
[46:15] force on the defense side. That you can
[46:17] go out there and find all the holes in
[46:19] yourself and go be proactive to attack
[46:22] the bad guys. So, I don't think I'm not
[46:24] a doomer at all. There'll be instances
[46:26] of [ __ ] that happens, but I'm more
[46:30] afraid of what people do because of
[46:31] their concerns and lack of understanding
[46:33] of AI than I am about what AI will do.
[46:36] >> AI is not smart.
[46:37] >> No.
[46:38] Even we call it intelligent. Like we we
[46:42] Remember how we talked about book smart?
[46:44] >> Mhm.
[46:44] >> Somebody who can read a book, remember
[46:46] what's in it, they're book smart, get
[46:48] A's on tests cuz they memorize
[46:49] everything and they That's AI.
[46:53] >> So, what is what is I want to be clear
[46:54] on your definition of smart.
[46:56] >> Smart is being able to aggregate
[46:58] information and inputs.
[47:00] >> Yeah.
[47:00] >> Smart is being able to know where to
[47:02] look for the inputs and being able to
[47:04] take them and then
[47:08] aggregate them to solve a problem.
[47:10] >> Mhm.
[47:11] >> And also being able to identify the
[47:13] problem you're trying to solve.
[47:15] AI doesn't do that. And again, you have
[47:18] to be in the real time. We're having
[47:19] this conversation. I didn't know what
[47:21] questions you were going to ask, right?
[47:23] It's just whatever, right?
[47:25] AI
[47:27] is missing all that.
[47:28] >> Mhm.
[47:29] >> There's no way to feed AI everything
[47:32] that humans have access to. Like we
[47:34] talked about replacing doctors.
[47:36] Okay, if I'm a doctor and Steven's there
[47:40] This speeds it up. I have access to
[47:41] every research report, whatever it may
[47:43] be, article. And then Steven pukes all
[47:47] over me.
[47:49] AI can't help me with that, right?
[47:51] Steven, what's wrong? It's like
[47:54] I can't say to the AI what's wrong with
[47:55] Steven.
[47:56] I have to use my senses, look, you know,
[48:00] take my experience, and be smart enough
[48:02] to ask the right question.
[48:03] >> Is there a probability that something
[48:05] could happen that changes your mind on
[48:07] this point?
[48:08] It would
[48:09] whether it's the recursive
[48:10] self-improvement that they they all talk
[48:11] about where it starts improving itself
[48:13] or some kind What would evidence would
[48:15] you need to see to go, "You know what? I
[48:16] think AI is smart."
[48:18] >> I think where you take a minimal
[48:19] resource AI
[48:22] and it can ask and solve questions with
[48:25] minimal resources.
[48:27] Meaning, you can have a 12-year-old kid
[48:30] who comes from the worst part of the
[48:32] world be brilliant.
[48:35] No access to resources, sees and figures
[48:37] things out,
[48:39] finds places of sources of information.
[48:42] Now, when you talk about AI, more GPUs,
[48:45] more power, better algorithms, and
[48:48] whether it's recursive self-improvement
[48:50] or not where it teaches itself to try to
[48:52] get better,
[48:53] I don't think we reached that point
[48:55] where you can do it with no resources.
[48:59] >> Do you think the like people like Elon
[49:00] who
[49:01] you know, talk about how they're
[49:02] basically working is going to become a
[49:03] choice and
[49:05] um how smart this technology is going to
[49:06] be and the humanoid robots that are
[49:08] going to be empowered by AI and
[49:10] are those forecasts overblown?
[49:13] >> Elon Elon's amazing. He's a brilliant
[49:15] entrepreneur, don't get me wrong. He's
[49:17] the best entrepreneur of our lifetimes
[49:18] for sure.
[49:20] But he's a sales guy.
[49:22] You know, and he has to raise a lot of
[49:23] money for all the things he likes to do,
[49:25] and he's good at that. And so, I don't
[49:27] begrudge Elon anything even though he
[49:28] gives me [ __ ] on Twitter or X, and I
[49:30] give him [ __ ] right back. But I think
[49:33] he's got to sell what he's got to sell,
[49:35] and I think that carries the day for
[49:38] Elon.
[49:39] >> Mhm.
[49:40] Oh, yeah. I'm It's funny cuz I sit with
[49:41] so many different people from that the
[49:43] world of AI safety experts and then some
[49:45] of the frontier labs, you know, team
[49:47] members or CEOs or ex-employees. And one
[49:49] of the remarkable things is I hear
[49:52] everything.
[49:53] >> Yeah, there's no one continuous theme,
[49:55] [laughter] right? No no no two people
[49:56] give you the same answer. That tells you
[49:58] all you need to know, right?
[49:59] >> Yeah, it's it's possible.
[50:00] >> Cuz it should be obvious. If it was so
[50:02] dominant and there was a destination
[50:05] that everybody understood is where we
[50:07] would get to,
[50:08] it would be obvious to everybody and we
[50:10] all would see it. Again, you have to
[50:13] have
[50:14] more power and more GPUs than the
[50:19] history of power and GPUs prior to last
[50:22] year.
[50:24] That's not intelligence. There's a
[50:26] reason why you have to have all that.
[50:28] You know, you have to It's just brute
[50:30] force.
[50:31] >> Computers started a bit like that,
[50:33] didn't they?
[50:34] >> Um no, it's the exact opposite.
[50:35] >> Really? They started
[50:35] >> Yeah, cuz they were minimally capable.
[50:38] And so it took brilliance to program on
[50:40] Fortran on cards and put them into a
[50:42] this huge mainframe that didn't have a
[50:44] hundredth of the power of your phone. So
[50:46] they start off with minimal power and
[50:48] smart people figured out how to encode
[50:50] them. And then you got Moore's law and
[50:52] we saw chips, you know, silicon and all
[50:54] this stuff and it just got, you know,
[50:56] faster faster and faster. Maybe that's
[50:58] why I'm prejudiced in this, right?
[51:00] Because I've seen computers get
[51:03] incrementally faster faster faster by
[51:04] the minute, day, and year and the output
[51:07] and the capabilities that they create.
[51:10] >> Mhm.
[51:11] >> And so maybe that holds me back, right?
[51:13] My experience holds me back, but I think
[51:15] it I think it's indicative of what comes
[51:17] next. Pretty much all the time with
[51:19] technology. That it's going to get more
[51:21] powerful, for sure. It's going to get
[51:23] more capable, for sure. But as long as
[51:26] there's latency, people have the edge.
[51:30] >> It's going to get cheaper.
[51:32] >> Yeah, it'll get cheaper, for sure. It
[51:34] already is a lot cheaper than it was 2
[51:36] weeks ago. It's getting cheaper because
[51:38] those companies keep on borrowing and
[51:40] spending more money to get more power in
[51:44] order to power all of the AI.
[51:47] >> I think this is surprising to hear from
[51:48] you because you're someone who built
[51:50] broadcast.com at a moment when we were
[51:52] living in an like an exponential era.
[51:54] >> Yeah, an analog era, yeah.
[51:55] >> Yeah. And it you know, the internet was
[51:58] I mean people were skeptical about the
[51:59] internet.
[52:00] >> Yeah, people when I when I thought we
[52:01] were going to stream or
[52:03] you know, netcast is what we called it,
[52:05] they were like, "You're an idiot. I'll
[52:06] just turn on the TV. You're an idiot.
[52:08] I'll just turn on the radio."
[52:11] I just
[52:12] I'm not a naysayer on AI. I am the
[52:14] biggest proponent of AI that there is,
[52:17] but in order to to really get the
[52:19] benefit, you have to be, you know,
[52:22] honest about it.
[52:23] Like I said one time that a lot of these
[52:25] data centers will turn into pickleball
[52:26] courts courts, right? As a metaphor, not
[52:29] that literally they'd be pickleball
[52:30] courts. Because in order for AI to reach
[52:33] the pinnacle that everybody wants to
[52:34] reach it, you have to have less power
[52:37] doing more, not more power doing more.
[52:40] Because then you run into constraints
[52:42] like we're running into right now. We
[52:44] literally could get into a a debt bubble
[52:46] in the United States of America because
[52:49] there's so much debt being taken out by
[52:51] all these, you know, hyperscalers.
[52:54] >> You think that's possible?
[52:55] >> Yeah, of course it is cuz our deficit
[52:57] keeps on rising in the United States,
[52:59] which means we have to borrow more
[53:01] money, and the hyperscalers are are
[53:03] borrowing more than they're making, and
[53:05] so they're borrowing more and that
[53:07] lenders are competing for that business
[53:09] or they're competing to get lenders to
[53:10] lend to them. Rates keep on going up.
[53:13] I mean, if you've got a 40 billion
[53:15] dollar debt and your interest rates
[53:17] keeps on going up,
[53:19] at some point
[53:20] you can't raise money anymore.
[53:23] >> Mhm.
[53:23] >> There's a lot of praying going on right
[53:25] now. I'm a huge fan of Nvidia and Jensen
[53:28] Huang, but they're basically subsidizing
[53:30] half the industry
[53:31] cuz they have the cash to do it. And
[53:34] you've got
[53:35] Was it Goo No, Meta I think it is
[53:37] borrowing more than they have in cash
[53:39] flow by a factor of
[53:42] I mean, if it were the brilliance of
[53:45] brilliant, it should be the opposite,
[53:47] right? And at some point it may get
[53:49] there,
[53:50] but until then, we're in this private
[53:52] credit debt environment where there's a
[53:54] lot of uncertainty and a lot of things
[53:56] can go wrong. I mean, if you read what
[53:58] Ray Dalio says, you know, Ray says,
[54:00] we've already crossed the the curve,
[54:03] right? We're already past that point
[54:04] where we could be a debt-laden society
[54:07] where our currency becomes, you know,
[54:10] worthless at some point.
[54:12] >> Where are we in this at the moment in
[54:14] terms of the symptoms or markers of the
[54:17] next big
[54:18] >> Well, countries where over in this
[54:20] vicinity over here, the US, the UK,
[54:24] number of other countries are later in
[54:28] that cycle when there's the loss of the
[54:31] things that we've been talking about,
[54:33] over-indebtedness, more
[54:35] over-indebtedness, the loss of power.
[54:37] >> So, in the collapse period of the
[54:39] decline.
[54:40] >> And I'll call that the the decline.
[54:42] >> It's hard to imagine that for America,
[54:44] especially when you're 34 years old cuz
[54:45] you've just always seen the dominance of
[54:47] America.
[54:47] >> Right. No, as an American, it's it's
[54:50] hard to imagine and you think we'll
[54:51] figure it out.
[54:52] >> Yeah.
[54:53] >> We'll always figure it out. And
[54:56] I'm optimistic enough to think that we
[54:57] will, but there will be pain associated
[55:00] with that. Our politicians are great at
[55:01] sloganering. They're really bad at
[55:03] actually doing things. And I think
[55:05] that's going to be tough in this country
[55:07] and all countries.
[55:08] >> I think a lot of people think AI is the
[55:10] liferaft out of the debt as well because
[55:12] if you hear this age of abundance
[55:14] >> It's a race. It's a race, right? Will
[55:16] lenders lend to AI companies if interest
[55:20] rates hit, you know, now the 10-year's
[55:22] like 5.2%?
[55:23] If it goes to 6%, 8%, 10%, something's
[55:27] got to give. And right now at
[55:30] current interest rates, we're paying a
[55:33] trillion dollars in interest every year
[55:34] in this country.
[55:36] A trillion. And if the interest rates
[55:38] keep on going up and what we have to
[55:40] borrow keeps on going up, and then
[55:41] you've got all these hyperscalers
[55:43] competing to get access to that money,
[55:45] something gets crowded out. I don't know
[55:47] which or what. I'm not enough of a
[55:48] financial expert to do that, but
[55:50] something's going to give.
[55:52] >> Are you playing defense in any way just
[55:53] in case?
[55:54] >> Yeah. Yeah.
[55:55] >> What does that look like?
[55:56] >> I've got money in this country and that
[55:58] country, [laughter]
[55:59] you know, um
[56:01] and I I haven't invested nearly as much.
[56:04] It's the old Warren Buffett thing. I'll
[56:05] wait and see as things happen. I might
[56:07] lose a little bit because I'm I'm not
[56:10] as protected as I should have been, but
[56:13] I want to give it some time to see how
[56:15] things play out.
[56:16] >> I am I often wonder for the average
[56:17] person that's listening now, like what
[56:19] is the advice for them when they hear
[56:20] about this AI stuff going on with all
[56:22] these big San Francisco CEOs and this
[56:25] geopolitical race of AI?
[56:28] They're thinking like what can I like
[56:29] what should I be doing?
[56:30] And I think some of the advice that
[56:31] springs to mind is what you said earlier
[56:33] on about actually what what you can do
[56:35] in these moments is like get good at
[56:36] something. That feels like the
[56:38] the the the bucket that nobody can sort
[56:40] of unfill is like your skills and your
[56:42] knowledge at the end of the day.
[56:43] >> 100%. Yeah, you're exactly right and you
[56:44] said it well. Because what else you
[56:47] going to do?
[56:48] >> Mhm.
[56:49] >> And why would you give up?
[56:52] >> And the other thing I think a lot about
[56:53] is people skills.
[56:55] In a world where, you know, maybe my
[56:57] agent's going to run my computer for me,
[56:58] but I'm still going to have to interact
[56:59] >> more valuable, doesn't it?
[57:00] >> Yeah, exactly.
[57:01] >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean, some of the
[57:03] investments I've made, smaller
[57:04] investments are like a company that does
[57:06] silent discos, you know, and and
[57:09] Brentwood and and it's face-to-face
[57:11] communications. And that's part of the
[57:12] reason why you've seen sports valuations
[57:14] go up so much. They think that it's
[57:17] AI-proof, but
[57:19] they it has other issues.
[57:22] >> I've spent the last decade building and
[57:23] investing in companies and so often the
[57:25] conversation around marketing budgets
[57:26] follows the exact same pattern. The
[57:28] budget gets approved, but then the
[57:30] results don't come back. And most of the
[57:32] time, the creative pitch and the offer
[57:34] is fine. The problem lies with the
[57:36] audience. Ads reach people who will
[57:38] never buy or refer, nor do they have the
[57:41] power to sign off anything at all. And
[57:43] this is why so much budget gets wasted.
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[58:36] our show, but you haven't yet hit that
[58:38] button. Thank you so much.
[58:40] You mentioned earlier on having your
[58:41] teeth knocked out.
[58:42] >> Uh-huh.
[58:43] >> And you were sort of alluding to the
[58:44] fact that this made you an a little bit
[58:46] of an insecure young man.
[58:47] >> Yeah. To some degree.
[58:48] >> 100% yeah.
[58:48] >> Um often times when we, you know, I
[58:50] interview someone like yourself,
[58:53] the audience and me will assume that you
[58:55] are
[58:57] very intentionally, consciously driven.
[59:00] But the more I've interviewed people,
[59:02] sometimes you figure out that sometimes
[59:03] they're a little bit dragged
[59:04] >> Oh, yeah.
[59:05] >> by their insecurities. And
[59:06] >> Oh, yeah, 100% right. I was the fat kid,
[59:09] right? And I would do anything I could
[59:10] like I literally wore a shirt to school
[59:13] that said [ __ ] My mom's like,
[59:14] "You're going to get suspended." 20
[59:16] minutes after I got there. I had a pair
[59:18] of jeans that I ripped up from the
[59:19] bottom all the way up to my hip, and
[59:22] then I stapled it together just to stand
[59:24] out and get attention cuz I like like
[59:26] after I became famous, people went back
[59:29] to my high school peers, you know, kids
[59:31] in my class, they had no idea who I was.
[59:33] >> [laughter]
[59:35] >> My friends did, right? The people I was
[59:36] close to, but nobody. And I saw
[59:38] something where somebody took one of the
[59:40] pictures from my high school yearbook
[59:41] and they circled it as being me.
[59:44] It wasn't me.
[59:45] So, yeah, I was not somebody who stood
[59:47] out or was considered to be, you know,
[59:50] most likely to be successful at all.
[59:53] >> Was that sort of shame and insecurity
[59:55] part of your drive?
[59:56] >> Oh, yeah, for sure. Just to prove people
[59:58] wrong. That's one of the reasons I went
[60:00] to Indiana. And I remember getting to IU
[60:02] and saying, you know, here's my chance
[60:05] for a fresh start. I get to be whoever I
[60:06] want to be, act like it.
[60:08] >> Did you think becoming successful and or
[60:10] famous would
[60:12] fix
[60:13] the in the insecurity, the thing that
[60:15] was invalidating you at some level?
[60:16] >> I I didn't think No, I didn't think
[60:17] about it that directly. I didn't you
[60:18] know, one or the other. I just thought I
[60:21] hated being broke.
[60:22] >> Mhm.
[60:22] >> You [clears throat] know, I wanted to
[60:24] control my own destiny. That was a big
[60:26] thing. And I wanted to be able to
[60:28] control my own time. Like after I sold
[60:30] MicroSolutions, I didn't immediately say
[60:33] I'm going to take this money, invest it,
[60:34] and I'm going to go out there and make
[60:35] as much money as I can. I did the exact
[60:37] opposite. I bought a lifetime pass on
[60:38] American Airlines.
[60:39] >> I heard about this.
[60:40] >> And my mission was to go out there and
[60:42] get as [ __ ] up as possible with as
[60:44] many people as possible in as many
[60:45] countries as possible and just to enjoy
[60:48] like I have an iWatch now cuz all the
[60:50] data. And the day I sold MicroSolutions,
[60:53] I took off my watch and I said, "I'm
[60:55] never going to wear a watch again
[60:57] because that means I'm working on
[60:58] somebody else's time." When by not
[61:00] having a watch, by being successful,
[61:02] it's my time. Why I don't get dressed
[61:04] up, why I I won't wear a tie. It's like
[61:07] swag isn't how you dress. Swag is being
[61:09] able to tell somebody else how they
[61:11] dress, you know? And I just wanted to
[61:13] control my own destiny and my own time.
[61:15] >> And you made a couple million dollars
[61:17] from selling MicroSolutions as a young
[61:18] man. Um you then start the broadcast.com
[61:20] company in your early 30s.
[61:23] >> I'm 37. yeah.
[61:24] >> Oh, you're 37.
[61:25] And that sold 4 years later to Yahoo for
[61:28] 5.7 billion in stock.
[61:29] >> yeah.
[61:30] >> Which gave you a paper net worth of
[61:31] somewhere between roughly 1.5, 1.7
[61:34] billion dollars.
[61:34] >> Paper, yeah.
[61:35] >> How did that change anything?
[61:37] >> Oh, yeah.
[61:38] >> Yeah?
[61:38] >> Changed everything, you know.
[61:40] >> Inside?
[61:41] >> Yeah, because it meant instead of
[61:43] hustling and worrying about what came
[61:46] next,
[61:48] I got to do whatever the [ __ ] I wanted
[61:49] to do. And that was the beauty of the
[61:51] whole thing. I mean, buying the Mavs.
[61:53] Never in a million years would have
[61:55] crossed my mind that I would own an NBA
[61:57] team. And again, going back to I wanted
[62:01] to control my own time. That was
[62:02] something my parents never had the
[62:04] option to do. They always were obligated
[62:07] to somebody else. They had to show up at
[62:09] work. They had to be nice to so-and-so.
[62:11] They had to do such-and-such. And just
[62:13] being able to come home and eat dinner
[62:15] and watch TV
[62:17] was their joy.
[62:19] >> Your dad got to see you become a
[62:21] successful man. What did he think?
[62:23] >> Oh, he would just cry and cry and cry.
[62:25] We're an emotional family, let's put it
[62:27] that way, yeah. Um he obviously was
[62:29] proud of all of us. And he would just
[62:31] shake his head and he goes, "I don't
[62:33] know where you got it.
[62:35] >> [laughter]
[62:35] >> It certainly didn't come from me or your
[62:37] mom." And
[62:38] >> Are there any Is anything else that
[62:40] acquiring lots of money has taught you
[62:41] about meaning happiness or what this is
[62:44] all really about?
[62:45] >> Yeah, if you're miserable when you're
[62:46] poor, good chance you're going to be
[62:48] miserable when you're rich.
[62:49] >> Mhm.
[62:49] >> Money can't change who you are. Money
[62:51] can't change your approach to life.
[62:54] Money can't change how you feel about
[62:56] yourself.
[62:57] >> Mhm.
[62:58] >> I mean, it's nice. I I like being rich a
[63:00] whole lot more than I like being broke,
[63:02] but
[63:03] I really take pride in the fact that,
[63:05] you know, I still have the same friends.
[63:07] You know, my high school buddies are
[63:08] still my high school buddies. I'm still
[63:09] close to my brothers. I'm still close to
[63:11] my rugby teammates. I'm still close to,
[63:13] you know, the same people that always
[63:14] have meant something to me.
[63:16] >> Mhm.
[63:16] >> Those are my friends.
[63:17] >> Do you have to be ruthless in business?
[63:19] >> No.
[63:20] Absolutely not. That was one of the
[63:21] biggest mistakes I made um in
[63:23] MicroSolutions. I used to scream. And
[63:26] then Todd Wagner, my partner at um
[63:28] broadcast.com, told me, "Mark, people
[63:30] are afraid of you. It's
[63:32] counterproductive. You have to, you
[63:33] know, chill out." And he was right. And
[63:36] I found that I got a lot further by
[63:37] being nice than by being a dick.
[63:40] >> This idea of being nice is another
[63:41] lesson that your father was quite clear
[63:43] on.
[63:43] >> Yeah, for sure. I mean, he was nice to
[63:45] everybody. I can be mad, but it's not
[63:48] going to change anything. You know, and
[63:50] if it's not going to change anything and
[63:51] it makes me feel worse by being mad,
[63:54] [ __ ] it.
[63:54] >> But don't people going to [ __ ] with you
[63:55] if if they don't know that you have it
[63:57] in the locker?
[63:57] >> What are they going to do?
[63:59] >> You know, people might I I again, I'm
[64:01] playing devil's advocate here, but
[64:03] aren't if if people think you're a soft
[64:04] touch, aren't they going to
[64:06] >> writing them checks for nothing, right?
[64:08] I'm just not going to be
[64:09] I mean, look, if you saw me with
[64:11] referees at a basketball game, that was
[64:12] like my outlet, right? That's where I
[64:14] got it out of my system, but like in
[64:17] business, it's just not worth it.
[64:18] Particularly now. Like when I was first
[64:20] getting started, I'm in my 20s and I
[64:22] didn't know any better. I didn't really
[64:24] I didn't have any role models. I was
[64:25] just learning as I went. Then, you know,
[64:28] I was I was a jerk. I would yell. I
[64:29] would scream. But once I got to
[64:32] broadcast.com, audionetbroadcast.com,
[64:35] I got a lot more done. And I was happier
[64:37] about it. You know, it just made it
[64:39] easier and people, you know, reacted
[64:41] better to me. And so, it was it worked
[64:44] out.
[64:45] >> Cuz we hear about the stories of Steve
[64:46] Jobs and his anger and his rage and I
[64:48] was just reading Ari Emanuel's book
[64:50] about a rage.
[64:51] >> Yeah, Ari can let it loose, yeah.
[64:53] But everybody's different, you know? I
[64:55] mean, what works for you and just for
[64:57] me,
[64:59] like now, why would I get mad at
[65:01] somebody?
[65:02] What good does it do me?
[65:03] >> You seem like a very happy person.
[65:05] >> I try to be, right? I mean, I I mean,
[65:07] >> off camera, I felt like you were a very
[65:09] optimistic, happy person.
[65:11] >> Yeah, cuz why not?
[65:13] >> It's actually It's actually quite rare
[65:15] to meet someone who is a billionaire
[65:17] um who has that
[65:19] positive energy and sort of contentment
[65:22] for some reason.
[65:23] >> Money has changed my life, but it didn't
[65:25] change my life.
[65:26] You know, the things I could buy, not
[65:29] having stress about where I lived or
[65:30] paying the bills, all the stuff that
[65:32] money can do,
[65:34] but it didn't make me a better person or
[65:37] a worse person. It didn't change my
[65:40] relationship. I mean,
[65:41] >> [clears throat]
[65:42] >> honestly, being a celebrity was a lot
[65:44] harder than being rich.
[65:45] >> Really?
[65:46] >> Yeah, particularly as um social media
[65:48] became more prevalent and when Shark
[65:50] Tank blew up, it was you know, the Mavs
[65:51] had just won a championship. Shark Tank
[65:53] now is at the top at its peak ratings
[65:56] and everything. And I mean, celebrities
[65:58] everywhere, "Oh, I love Shark Tank. It's
[66:00] my new favorite show." You know how all
[66:02] that stuff goes, right? And being rich
[66:04] doesn't give you attention, right? It
[66:06] just changes how you deal with things.
[66:09] Being a celebrity
[66:11] brings you attention, some good, some
[66:13] bad.
[66:14] >> And you are you're an older brother of
[66:16] three
[66:16] >> Yeah.
[66:17] >> brothers.
[66:17] >> Yeah, two younger brothers.
[66:18] >> How how has that been formative to you?
[66:20] Cuz I you know, I'm a younger brother of
[66:21] four, but I always think of older
[66:24] brothers as being I mean,
[66:26] more likely to lead.
[66:28] Is that an accurate reflection of what
[66:29] it was like being an older brother?
[66:30] >> Yeah, yeah, cuz they they both followed
[66:32] me to Dallas. Both super smart guys,
[66:34] great guys. We're we're close, but they
[66:36] always copied me. And you know, there's
[66:39] 2 and 1/2 year difference to Brian, my
[66:40] middle brother, and 6-year difference.
[66:42] So, I was gone cuz I left early for
[66:44] college. We weren't as close then
[66:47] because they were super young and I was
[66:49] out of the house, but then I went to
[66:51] Indiana and they would come visit me.
[66:53] And you know, then I got came after
[66:54] Indiana, I went to Dallas and they came
[66:56] and lived with me. Both of them lived
[66:57] with me at some point, and that's where
[66:58] we got close.
[67:00] >> What role do you think you've played in
[67:01] their lives as big brother?
[67:04] >> You know, that's a great question. Um
[67:06] I hope I've been able to set a good
[67:08] example. You know, I think
[67:10] I've been a double-edged sword for them
[67:12] as a big brother in that um I think I've
[67:15] set a good example in many ways and I
[67:17] tried to be supportive and help them
[67:19] where I could. But then, you know what
[67:21] it's like when it comes with celebrity,
[67:23] right? That creates a whole different
[67:24] set of pressures. And I think, you know,
[67:27] particularly living in Dallas as things
[67:29] started to really take off for me was
[67:31] tough on them and I could tell. You
[67:33] know, it's it's not that they weren't
[67:35] supportive, but you know, it's not like
[67:37] Cuban is Smith, right? Where
[67:39] you know, it's like Cuban, oh you must
[67:40] be related to or your brother, you know,
[67:42] how are you related to Mark? And I mean,
[67:45] I know that that put a lot of pressure
[67:47] on them.
[67:48] >> Put a lot of pressure on them.
[67:49] >> Yeah.
[67:50] Yeah, because, you know, well, what are
[67:52] you doing, right? Or you just live off
[67:53] your brother or this or that and both of
[67:55] them are smart and both of them have
[67:57] made their own way, have done really
[67:58] well, but
[67:59] you know, and we haven't talked about it
[68:00] a lot, but, you know, we it it was
[68:03] definitely tougher on them as things
[68:05] really started to take off for me.
[68:07] >> Brian struggled.
[68:09] >> Yeah.
[68:10] >> Um we actually spoke to Brian.
[68:12] >> Oh, you did?
[68:12] >> We did speak to Brian. Yeah.
[68:14] And he he sort of spoke to some of those
[68:16] struggles.
[68:16] >> Yeah.
[68:17] >> But he also um
[68:19] he wrote you a letter.
[68:20] >> Oh my god.
[68:22] I'll probably start crying.
[68:23] >> Can I read it?
[68:24] >> Yeah.
[68:25] >> I read it and I I found it to be
[68:27] you know, very emotional.
[68:32] >> Do you want me to read it out loud?
[68:33] >> Yeah.
[68:35] >> We have so many great childhood
[68:36] memories. It's hard to pick one.
[68:40] >> [sighs and gasps]
[68:41] >> So, I'll go to the one that feels most
[68:42] personal to me. July 2005 is the lowest
[68:45] moment in my life wanting to end it.
[68:47] You and Jeff were there for me as you
[68:49] both always have been.
[68:51] I wouldn't be here today if not for you
[68:53] both. As our dad told us growing up, no
[68:55] matter what happens or where you go,
[68:57] always stay in contact with your
[68:59] brothers.
[69:00] It's no accident that after so many
[69:02] decades, 1,200 miles from Pittsburgh,
[69:04] >> [snorts]
[69:04] >> we all live within walking distance of
[69:05] each other. I love you. Bye.
[69:11] Yeah, it was not
[69:13] a good time um in 2005.
[69:18] You know, he
[69:19] And again, that goes part and parcel to,
[69:22] you know, being my little brother, you
[69:24] know, and
[69:25] being out and about in the social scene
[69:27] and
[69:29] you know, I bought the Mavs in 2000.
[69:32] You know, I was becoming famous and all
[69:34] of a sudden it wasn't a burden he chose,
[69:36] right? Or it wasn't his choice. It was
[69:38] just the way things turned out.
[69:40] And you know, he he took a turn.
[69:44] I mean, he
[69:46] just
[69:48] had issues, had problems, and
[69:50] >> [snorts]
[69:51] >> Jeff called me. I was out of town. I
[69:53] came back in and we went and got him and
[69:55] put him in rehab and
[69:57] you know, and he's been sober ever
[69:59] since. So, thank God for that.
[70:03] >> It puts things into perspective, doesn't
[70:05] it?
[70:05] >> Yeah.
[70:05] >> In so many ways.
[70:07] >> It's crazy cuz, you know, it's not like
[70:08] we were all best friends and did
[70:10] everything together,
[70:12] but [snorts]
[70:13] we always connected and stayed together.
[70:16] Family trips, going places with my dad
[70:18] or my mom or
[70:20] to this day,
[70:22] you know, we're texting each other. I
[70:24] don't even know how many times a week or
[70:26] if there's a Steelers game or Pirates
[70:28] game or something going on, we're we're
[70:29] still connected.
[70:31] >> Your mother you just mentioned missing
[70:32] your father. Your mother and your father
[70:33] passed over
[70:35] 2017 and 2022. How has did that moment
[70:38] bring the family together?
[70:40] Or bring your siblings together?
[70:42] >> Um
[70:43] I mean, in the obvious sense, yes. I
[70:45] mean, at that point in time,
[70:48] but
[70:49] I think
[70:51] it it makes you feel when your parents
[70:53] pass, it makes you feel your own
[70:54] mortality. Everybody's time comes at
[70:56] some point.
[70:58] And my dad made it to 92, my mom made it
[71:00] to 85, and that sounds like a long time
[71:03] until you realize
[71:05] it's not as long as you hope. And so,
[71:07] yeah, it it definitely connected us
[71:10] even more strongly than we were.
[71:12] >> When we When I read about some of these
[71:14] things, I thought about some of your
[71:15] more recent decisions around leaving
[71:17] Shark Tank, selling the Mavs, they felt
[71:19] like they were part of the same puzzle.
[71:20] >> 100% Yeah, definitely cuz
[71:23] again, when you start feeling your own
[71:25] mortality and you start recognizing
[71:27] what's important,
[71:28] my kids,
[71:30] my family, that next business trip
[71:33] didn't seem nearly as important as it
[71:34] used to.
[71:35] And missing a birthday
[71:39] and telling myself, well, I'll be there
[71:40] for the next one,
[71:41] >> Mhm.
[71:43] >> you know, became a mistake and I was
[71:45] just like, okay, what's the point of
[71:46] doing this? You know, I'm
[71:50] They were 13,
[71:52] um,
[71:53] 16, and 19 when I sold the Mavs, and a
[71:57] little bit older when I got out of Shark
[71:59] Tank, and
[72:00] you know, it it wasn't going to be all
[72:02] that long till they were on their own.
[72:04] And I just wanted to be there as much as
[72:05] I could.
[72:07] >> Should everyone be an entrepreneur?
[72:09] >> No, not everybody's built to be an
[72:11] entrepreneur. Um
[72:12] >> What are they missing?
[72:14] >> If you have to ask yourself if you can
[72:16] be an entrepreneur, you're probably not
[72:18] an entrepreneur.
[72:19] There's something that you want to
[72:21] accomplish, or there's a skill that you
[72:22] have that you want to to use to your own
[72:25] benefit, financial benefit, but not
[72:28] everybody's willing to do the work like
[72:29] we talked about earlier, to do the
[72:31] preparation, to to fight the battles,
[72:33] and I think a lot of people think that
[72:35] when you become an entrepreneur, you get
[72:37] more control of your life as opposed to
[72:39] being subject to what the whims of your
[72:40] bosses.
[72:41] >> Mhm.
[72:41] >> It's the exact opposite.
[72:43] >> Mhm.
[72:43] >> You have no control of your life as an
[72:45] entrepreneur because your customers,
[72:47] your employees, there's always
[72:48] something. Some employee's child is
[72:51] sick, and you have to work it through
[72:54] because particularly you know if you
[72:55] have a company that has under 100
[72:56] employees everybody's family at some
[72:59] level, you know, and you know everybody
[73:01] you you talk to them, you know what's
[73:03] happening in your lives. People don't
[73:05] expect that when they become an
[73:06] entrepreneur.
[73:07] >> If I sat Mark there, 20 year old Mark
[73:09] here.
[73:09] >> Yeah, programmer Mark.
[73:10] >> I just give you the preface on why I'm
[73:11] asking this question. I think that the
[73:13] journey you've been on changes a man,
[73:15] you know, in several ways, small ways.
[73:18] It's kind of like being pelted by hail.
[73:20] And especially if you're a famous
[73:21] person.
[73:22] So, I think people become clearer on
[73:24] their principles, and they they they
[73:27] learn principles, but they also become
[73:29] clearer on on their principles. So, if I
[73:30] sat 21 year old Mark there, and then
[73:33] you're sat here now, what how has this
[73:35] journey, being pelted by the world, good
[73:38] and bad, shaped you? And like what's
[73:41] changed?
[73:41] >> That's a great question. Um
[73:45] I mean, I think family obviously changes
[73:47] you the most, but from a business
[73:49] perspective from here, and it's great
[73:50] that you brought this picture. So, you
[73:51] see
[73:53] that poster right there that hadn't been
[73:54] hung hung hung up yet?
[73:56] >> Mhm.
[73:56] >> It says poverty sucks.
[73:58] >> [laughter]
[73:59] >> And I used to have it I just moved in
[74:01] that house, that's the second bedroom in
[74:02] my house. Every house or apartment that
[74:05] I lived in, that was on the wall.
[74:07] Poverty sucks. And I think that's the
[74:09] big difference. You know, this Mark was,
[74:12] you know,
[74:13] I would sit there for 25, 26 straight
[74:17] hours writing software for customers
[74:19] because I knew I had to do it.
[74:20] >> And you had no degree in software
[74:22] development.
[74:22] >> No, I had to teach myself everything.
[74:23] So, anything I didn't know, I had to
[74:25] learn teach myself. And that's what I
[74:27] would do. I literally I would get a
[74:29] bucket of ribs. It's so gross now, but I
[74:32] would sit there because I would start
[74:34] concentrating so hard, and I would look
[74:37] up thinking it's three or four hours
[74:38] later, and it'd be 28 hours later cuz I
[74:41] was just so consumed by what I was doing
[74:44] because I wanted to get to that next
[74:46] level.
[74:47] >> You found out what you were good at and
[74:48] what you were capable of.
[74:50] Did you also find out what you were not
[74:51] capable of and what you were not good
[74:52] at?
[74:52] >> Oh, yeah, a lot of stuff. I found out
[74:54] what do I suck at?
[74:56] >> I want to just preface this by saying, I
[74:57] think this is also really important
[74:58] because sometimes people look at a
[75:00] billionaire successful businessman like
[75:01] you and go, he must just [ __ ] be
[75:03] >> Oh, no, no, I there's a lot of things
[75:05] I'm awful at. At MicroSolutions, I had a
[75:08] partner, Martin Woodall.
[75:09] Martin Woodall was anal. He was just a
[75:12] perfectionist about everything. I'm not.
[75:15] I'm ready, fire, aim. Go, go, go, go,
[75:17] go. And if you go out of the baseline,
[75:19] so be it, right? If it goes into touch,
[75:21] so be it, it doesn't matter, right?
[75:23] That's for somebody else to deal with.
[75:24] When I got to broadcast.com, Todd
[75:26] Wagner, same way. His skill set
[75:28] complemented mine. It wasn't that I
[75:30] needed a partner, it's that I needed a
[75:32] partner.
[75:33] >> Mhm.
[75:33] >> You know, [clears throat] and
[75:35] recognizing that I never was going to be
[75:37] good at the details. Dr. Osmanski now at
[75:40] Cost Plus Drugs, very detail-oriented. I
[75:43] need that complement to my skill set
[75:46] because I'm awful at the details.
[75:47] >> What about finance? Were you good at
[75:49] finance cuz you didn't have a finance
[75:50] degree, did you?
[75:51] >> Oh, no, but I'd taken finance classes,
[75:53] I'd taken entrepreneurship classes. So,
[75:55] yeah, I get finance. I might not be able
[75:58] to structure the most advanced M&A deal,
[76:00] but I'm going to understand it.
[76:02] >> What about hiring and leadership? Is
[76:04] like
[76:04] >> Well, that's another thing. Right? Let's
[76:05] separate hiring and leadership.
[76:07] >> Mhm.
[76:07] >> Leadership is one thing I think I'm good
[76:08] at, right? Hiring, suck at it. As a
[76:11] salesperson, I would see Steven sitting
[76:14] sitting across from me and Steven would
[76:16] give me an answer to a question. I'm
[76:18] like, "Okay, I can help Steven. I can
[76:20] make it work. I want to I want this guy
[76:22] to be successful at my company." And I
[76:23] would hire the worst possible people.
[76:25] Why did you hire this guy? Well, I
[76:27] thought it's like a Shark Tank deal.
[76:28] This company sucks. Why were you
[76:30] investing in this guy? Oh, I can make it
[76:31] work. I can make it work. And so, people
[76:33] are like, "Hey Mark, can I get a job?
[76:35] Can I send you my resume?" I'm like,
[76:37] "Don't send it to me
[76:38] >> [laughter]
[76:39] >> cuz I might hire you."
[76:39] >> I'm awful at it.
[76:42] >> How important is it though as a skill in
[76:43] terms of outcomes, do you think?
[76:45] >> Oh, hiring is critical, right? I mean,
[76:47] if you don't have the right people in
[76:48] the right culture, the people that fit
[76:50] into that culture, you're going to suck.
[76:51] But, you know, we would hire slow, but
[76:54] fire fast. So, if there's somebody that
[76:56] these guys hired and I'm like, they're
[76:57] not going to work,
[76:59] they would know and it'd get resolved.
[77:01] >> People founders don't talk about that.
[77:02] And if they they talk about like
[77:03] creating a fancy shiny product that does
[77:05] something awesome, but the actual art of
[77:07] like building the team
[77:08] >> is more important.
[77:09] >> Yeah.
[77:10] >> Yeah, I mean, you got to have the right
[77:10] product, the right service, but
[77:12] >> Makes me think about this again.
[77:13] >> Yeah, that as well, yeah. You've got to
[77:15] have culture. And particularly in
[77:17] sports, you can have the most talent,
[77:20] but if they don't fit together as a
[77:22] team,
[77:24] they're going to suck.
[77:25] >> Is that what you found when you went
[77:26] into the Mavs originally?
[77:27] >> Oh, yeah. Yeah, when I got there, nobody
[77:28] wanted to be there.
[77:30] I mean, literally, people in the office,
[77:33] people on the court, they we were just a
[77:35] way station. If you couldn't get a job
[77:37] with the Lakers or the Celtics or
[77:39] whoever, right? Okay, the Mavs will hire
[77:41] you and that's fine. So, when I got
[77:43] there, it was
[77:44] the most important thing that I focused
[77:46] on. I sat there in front of the players,
[77:47] I'm like, we're going to win.
[77:49] And this train is speeding up, it's
[77:50] internet time, it's 2000, right? And if
[77:53] you want to stay, let me know. And if
[77:55] you don't want to stay, let me know and
[77:57] I'll trade you. I got no problem with
[77:59] that cuz we're going to do things
[78:00] differently. I expect you to win, I'll
[78:03] give you the tools you need to win.
[78:05] Like, one of the things I did,
[78:07] like, when I took over, we had head
[78:10] coach and like three assistant coaches.
[78:12] And they were responsible for all the
[78:14] training and player development and
[78:16] that's the way the entire NBA did it.
[78:18] And we were literally spending more
[78:20] money on computer training and support
[78:22] than we were on player development and
[78:24] for players we paid more than a million
[78:25] dollars. So, I'm like, this is the
[78:27] dumbest [ __ ] I've ever seen. And so, I
[78:29] asked our general manager and assistant
[78:31] general manager and coaches, I'm like,
[78:33] go find former Mavericks and I want you
[78:35] to bring them in and we're going to
[78:37] assign to each of them one player who
[78:40] has a similar skill set that they had
[78:41] when they were in the NBA and they're
[78:43] going to do nothing but work with them.
[78:45] That's it. Just work with them.
[78:47] That made perfect sense to me because
[78:49] all these former players wanted to get
[78:51] in and we hardly had to pay them
[78:52] anything. They just wanted to be part of
[78:53] the game again and now all of a sudden
[78:56] all of our players had somebody focused
[78:57] on them and not only did it improve
[78:59] their skills, but it made them realize
[79:01] that the culture of this organization is
[79:04] to win and we will do whatever it takes
[79:06] to win and you know, it paid off. But
[79:09] the rest of the NBA?
[79:11] Oh my god, they hated me. They hated me.
[79:13] I went out bought a plane, you know, I
[79:15] spent about the same amount on the team
[79:17] plane because I'm like we leave Oakland,
[79:20] California at 3:00 in the morning or
[79:22] whatever. I don't want us flying on this
[79:24] little ratty plane that they rented or a
[79:27] typical commercial plane when your guy's
[79:29] seven What are the guy Shawn Bradley
[79:30] 7'6"? He's not you know, fitting in a
[79:33] regular seat and he's making his living
[79:35] with his body, right? So, I bought a
[79:37] plane and I told I told the guys, "Okay,
[79:39] we're going to [ __ ] with everybody. I
[79:41] want you to tell everybody that there's
[79:43] a weight room on the plane, a steam
[79:45] room."
[79:46] >> [laughter]
[79:46] >> We didn't have any of that [ __ ] right?
[79:47] And to this day people will ask me about
[79:49] the weight room that we had on the
[79:50] plane. And just stuff like that where
[79:52] it's not only is it effective and
[79:56] improves outcomes, but it sends a
[79:58] message that hey, this is what we're
[80:01] trying to do. This is our culture. We're
[80:03] going to win. We're going to support
[80:04] each other and I'm going to get you all
[80:06] the tools you need. Like even things
[80:08] like a nutritionist or you know,
[80:10] preparing food for them.
[80:12] Things teams didn't do back then.
[80:15] And [clears throat] it just made sense
[80:16] to me.
[80:16] >> Did you see the culture changing of the
[80:18] maps?
[80:18] >> Oh, like that.
[80:19] >> It was quickly.
[80:20] >> Oh, yeah. We went When I took over, we
[80:22] were 9 and 23.
[80:24] >> What's that mean?
[80:24] >> Um we were nine wins and 23 losses.
[80:27] >> Oh, damn.
[80:27] >> Yeah. And we finished the season um the
[80:30] next 50 games we were 31 and 19.
[80:33] >> Wow.
[80:34] >> Yeah.
[80:35] >> The next season?
[80:36] >> No, we're talking about that season.
[80:38] >> That season.
[80:38] >> So, when I took over in January, the
[80:40] season runs towards April. When I took
[80:42] over, we had nine wins, 23 losses, and
[80:45] for the remaining 50 50 games of that
[80:47] season,
[80:49] we won 31 of them, lost 19 of them.
[80:51] >> Since you took over, the Mavericks had
[80:53] the second highest regular season
[80:54] winning percentage of any NBA team. The
[80:56] team went from 39% win rate to almost
[80:59] 60% win rate under you. The Mavericks
[81:02] made their first finals, but lost to
[81:04] Miami Heat in 2006.
[81:06] >> Yep.
[81:06] >> And then, the Mavericks won the NBA
[81:08] championship in 2011, when you were 53
[81:11] years old. And then, you sold the
[81:13] majority ownership.
[81:14] >> 2023. Yeah.
[81:16] >> But, you still have a significant
[81:17] >> 27%, yeah.
[81:19] >> I always find teams as like that that
[81:20] great analogy for learning about how to
[81:22] build businesses because
[81:24] it is there's a scoreboard, and you get
[81:26] the scores back quick. Whereas, in
[81:27] business, there can be it's kind of a
[81:29] bit more vague as to what's happening
[81:30] with your product.
[81:31] >> always a new season in sports. You can
[81:33] make trades, you can cut people,
[81:35] [clears throat] you know, replace them.
[81:37] In business, it's 24/7 by 365. It's the
[81:40] ultimate sport, which is, you know, if
[81:42] you have competitive juices,
[81:45] business is the ultimate way to to fill
[81:47] that need.
[81:47] >> Is there anything else you learned from
[81:48] Mavericks, the Mavs, that might be
[81:50] applicable to building businesses or or
[81:53] hiring teams or creating teams?
[81:55] >> I think you have to be innovative
[81:58] because it's so competitive.
[82:00] Things like, you know, using statistics.
[82:05] It's quick story.
[82:07] When I was at Indiana, I snuck into the
[82:09] NBA program when I got there as an
[82:11] 18-year-old, and I started taking MBA
[82:13] classes. The first MBA class I snuck
[82:15] into was a statistics class taught by a
[82:18] guy named Wayne Winston. But, fast
[82:20] forward 6 months after I bought the
[82:22] Mavs, whatever it was, and I'm watching
[82:25] Jeopardy on television.
[82:27] And he's on there killing it, right?
[82:29] Killing it. And then weeks later I'm at
[82:32] Indianapolis, we're playing the Indiana
[82:33] Pacers, and I hear "Mark, Mark, Mark"
[82:36] from the crowd, and it's like, if I
[82:38] hadn't watched him on Jeopardy, I
[82:39] wouldn't have recognized him as my
[82:41] professor from when I was 18 years old.
[82:43] And we started talking, and he started
[82:45] telling me about what he was doing with
[82:46] statistics for sports,
[82:48] and I hired him on the spot, and he
[82:50] became the first um analytics person in
[82:53] the NBA full-time, and that helped us
[82:55] grow our way into winning games and
[82:57] winning championships, um or a
[83:00] championship. And the point to your
[83:01] question is you have to keep on
[83:04] innovating in sports like all
[83:06] businesses. You can't rest on your
[83:08] laurels.
[83:09] >> People don't like necess- always like
[83:11] the idea of data and statistics cuz it
[83:12] seems to be a threat against that
[83:14] instinct and judgment and creativity.
[83:16] >> No, it's true. Like, the eye test versus
[83:17] the numbers, and you have to do both.
[83:19] You know, you can't exclude one or the
[83:22] other. I mean, there's some players that
[83:24] just look shoot ugly, don't make as many
[83:27] shots, but in aggregate, they impact
[83:30] winning a game and winning championships
[83:32] more than the guys who score 25 points.
[83:35] >> Tiffany.
[83:36] >> Uh-oh.
[83:37] >> [laughter]
[83:38] >> I spoke to Tiffany. I'm joking, I didn't
[83:40] really.
[83:41] >> Oh, okay.
[83:42] I mean, it wouldn't be bad, but I was
[83:43] just like,
[83:44] >> [laughter]
[83:44] >> okay, I'm surprised you talked to you.
[83:46] >> You didn't need to choke on your drink.
[83:48] Maybe I should have. Um Tiffany, you met
[83:50] Tiffany I think in a gym when you were
[83:52] 39.
[83:53] >> Yeah, late 30s, let's say, yeah.
[83:54] >> And you got married?
[83:55] >> Um in 2002, so I was 44.
[83:58] >> Three kids so far?
[84:00] >> So far.
[84:00] >> Yeah. [laughter]
[84:01] >> No, I got snipped.
[84:02] >> Okay, okay, so total. How does that feed
[84:05] into everything we've talked about
[84:06] around happiness and meaning and purpose
[84:07] and success?
[84:08] >> Oh, it supersedes everything.
[84:10] >> Really?
[84:10] >> Yeah, I mean, you you got one part of my
[84:11] brain that is like business, business,
[84:13] business, business, you know, compete,
[84:15] compete, compete, and then you've got
[84:17] the better part of me that's my kids, my
[84:19] kids, my kids,
[84:20] um and my wife, and they've just changed
[84:22] me for the better in a million ways I
[84:24] can't even describe. And there's
[84:27] nothing, you know,
[84:29] more important to me. Nothing. I may not
[84:31] be great as a dad, don't tell you, you
[84:33] know, but, um, or a husband, but I do my
[84:35] best.
[84:36] >> What why is that so important? So many
[84:38] of us sacrifice relationships in the
[84:40] pursuit of
[84:40] >> And I must say that I did, right? I
[84:42] mean, like, when I had MicroSolutions, I
[84:43] was dating a woman and it was like, I
[84:46] mean, I I was on a mission. I didn't
[84:47] settle down immediately in terms of, you
[84:50] know, family in front of business,
[84:53] but
[84:54] I got to that point.
[84:55] >> In hindsight, do you think it would have
[84:56] been possible to do both at the same
[84:57] time?
[84:58] >> Not as well as I did it, um,
[85:00] and I regret that in a lot of ways.
[85:03] >> Which part?
[85:03] >> The fact that I didn't do as many of the
[85:06] little events,
[85:08] um, with my kids as I probably should
[85:10] have. I would tell myself, um, "They're
[85:12] too young to remember." You know, and so
[85:15] I would go do what I needed to do with
[85:16] with business, um,
[85:19] but in hindsight, I probably would have
[85:20] done more of that.
[85:21] >> Where does that regret come from? Does
[85:22] that come from you or does that come
[85:24] from them?
[85:25] >> No, it I mean, they remind me of certain
[85:27] things, for sure, but, um,
[85:29] but I think it's for me, you know, just
[85:31] in hindsight. And, you know, it took me
[85:33] a while to get there, but that's why I
[85:35] left Shark Tank, why I sold the Mavs, or
[85:36] a big part of it.
[85:38] >> I also did it for my own reasons.
[85:39] Obviously, I'm in the season of life
[85:40] where I'm about to have, um, kids,
[85:41] hopefully, touch wood. And I hear over
[85:44] and over again exactly what you've just
[85:45] said from successful people. So, when I
[85:47] ask where does it come from, I'm like,
[85:48] is it did is it feedback the kids give
[85:49] you when they grow up or is it just a
[85:51] feeling you have?
[85:52] >> Both.
[85:52] >> Both. Yeah.
[85:53] >> But, I mean, cuz teenagers are
[85:54] teenagers. I mean, I'll never forget
[85:56] when my oldest, like, she was 12 years
[85:58] old, I was saying something to her, she
[86:00] was like,
[86:02] >> [clears throat]
[86:03] >> And and it's different for them, right?
[86:04] I feel bad sometimes because they're
[86:06] under a spotlight and, you know, I would
[86:08] always with each of them over and over,
[86:10] I would have the conversation, "Look, if
[86:12] you go out and do something or if one of
[86:14] your friends goes out and does something
[86:16] stupid,
[86:16] >> Mhm. It's on you.
[86:19] >> Your friend did something stupid.
[86:20] If you do something stupid, it's on the
[86:22] front page of the paper and every, you
[86:25] know, social media feed around the
[86:26] world. And so, I think that puts some
[86:29] unfair pressure on them, but I mean, I
[86:32] think they've adapted. They're great
[86:33] kids. Don't get me wrong. They are
[86:34] amazing, amazing kids. And, you know, I
[86:38] can still tell you with absolute
[86:39] certainty that my favorite word in the
[86:41] world is dad. And they know I'm a crier.
[86:44] >> [laughter]
[86:45] >> I can see it gets you emotional just
[86:46] saying it.
[86:47] >> Yeah. Yeah, that's that's like every
[86:49] that
[86:50] means a lot to me.
[86:51] >> Why?
[86:54] >> You know,
[86:55] as you get older, you start to recognize
[86:57] your mortality.
[86:59] And
[87:01] like with my parents being gone, I have
[87:03] their pictures, you know, in in my
[87:05] closet and I say hi to them every
[87:07] morning and every night.
[87:09] And I want my kids to be the same way
[87:11] after I'm gone.
[87:12] I want them to be proud of me.
[87:15] I want them to, you know, remember me
[87:17] positively as much as possible and I
[87:20] want them to carry on anything that, you
[87:23] know, we all can do together.
[87:28] >> I have no doubt they will be. I'm having
[87:30] no doubt they are.
[87:31] >> Who knows?
[87:33] Who knows? They're at that age where we
[87:34] can't have that we don't have that
[87:35] conversation yet.
[87:38] >> As you look forward, Mark.
[87:40] Um you've talked about your mortality,
[87:42] you've talked about um
[87:43] leaving Shark Tank, which I've just
[87:46] become a guest uh shark on the show,
[87:48] Unfilable Shoes.
[87:48] >> great.
[87:49] >> [laughter]
[87:49] >> Yeah, I'm good. Thank you. Um you're 68
[87:52] now.
[87:52] >> Yeah, no, 48. [clears throat]
[87:54] >> 48? [laughter]
[87:55] You look 48, to be fair. You look pretty
[87:57] good. You play a lot of sports still,
[87:58] right? So, I see you playing basketball
[88:00] and stuff like that. What do you want to
[88:02] accomplish in this next season of your
[88:03] career?
[88:04] Cost Plus Drugs as the show
[88:05] >> Plus Drugs, obviously I want to change
[88:07] health care in America. It's a mess and,
[88:09] you know, it was great when with the
[88:10] Mavs, someone would say, "Oh, great game
[88:12] or whatever, but when somebody walks up
[88:14] to me now and says, "Yeah, I got my
[88:15] drugs from cosmosdrugs.com. It saves me,
[88:18] you know, $1,000 a month and now I can
[88:20] afford them." I mean,
[88:22] >> That's really something, Mark.
[88:23] >> It's crazy.
[88:24] >> It's crazy that someone like you would
[88:25] commit your life
[88:27] to this because
[88:28] regardless of what you've just described
[88:30] there, I think personally the biggest
[88:32] thing you're doing is just shining a
[88:34] massive light on an issue that doesn't
[88:36] want a light on it.
[88:36] >> Oh, and I'll fix it. I promise you I
[88:38] will fix it because there are
[88:40] three basically big companies that
[88:42] dominate all of health care. You know,
[88:44] hundreds of billions in sales. It's
[88:46] crazy. And you got 67% of people who get
[88:51] health insurance from their employer
[88:53] get it through an employer who's
[88:54] self-insured. And I bring that up
[88:56] because that means they take all the
[88:58] responsibility for the bills, that
[89:00] employer does. Which means it's their
[89:01] responsibility in who they hire to do
[89:04] all their insurance and take care of all
[89:05] that stuff. And so I just go
[89:07] door-to-door with these CEOs and I just
[89:09] give them [ __ ] left and right. And if I
[89:11] can get them to do the right thing to
[89:13] save themselves money and improve the
[89:15] health of their employees and families,
[89:19] I'll get a win there and I'll completely
[89:21] change health care in this country and
[89:23] that that's the mission.
[89:24] >> You and Trump have had a bit of a
[89:25] interesting relationship, roller coaster
[89:26] relationship, but I saw you stood next
[89:29] to him talking about this initiative
[89:30] recently.
[89:31] >> Yeah. Yeah. Look, anything that makes
[89:33] people healthier and saves them money on
[89:34] their health care,
[89:36] that's fine by me. I don't care. You can
[89:38] give me some [ __ ]
[89:40] I don't care. You know, the goal is the
[89:42] goal. And the goal is to change health
[89:45] care in this country so that
[89:47] it is what it is, truly a right. And in
[89:50] order to do that, we're going to have
[89:51] to, you know, make it so that
[89:54] those big companies
[89:56] no longer dominate the industry.
[89:59] >> We have a closing tradition on this
[90:00] podcast where the last guest leaves the
[90:01] question for the next, not knowing who
[90:02] they're leaving it for.
[90:03] >> Okay.
[90:04] >> And I only get to read it when I open
[90:05] the book. Um the question left for you
[90:07] is this is a [ __ ] unbelievable
[90:09] question. It's an interesting one.
[90:10] What's the hardest question you weren't
[90:13] asked? What's the hardest question I
[90:15] wasn't asked?
[90:17] I'm not going to ask you the question,
[90:18] just for the record.
[90:19] I mean, the family questions you asked,
[90:21] I mean, what what hits you most
[90:23] emotionally effectively is the hardest
[90:25] questions that I don't get asked.
[90:28] Mark, thank you so much. Thank you for
[90:29] for many reasons, for being a personal
[90:30] inspiration to me because I remember
[90:32] multiple times where I stumbled across
[90:34] your life story or your work or your
[90:36] ideas at a critical moment that either
[90:38] gave me a bit more belief, that gave me
[90:40] some patience,
[90:42] um, that gave me some wisdom,
[90:43] [clears throat]
[90:44] um, but also, you know, the the other
[90:46] layer of context I now have is just
[90:47] having spent some time with you as a
[90:49] person. And the one of the real things
[90:51] of outside of the wisdom that I come
[90:52] away with and outside of the sense of
[90:53] purpose and family is, um, the
[90:56] realization that you can be both very,
[90:58] very successful
[90:59] and you can be a good person
[91:02] and a happy person and a positive
[91:04] person.
[91:04] >> Let's not go too far.
[91:05] >> Yeah, [laughter] but that's how you
[91:06] feel. That's the energy you have. And
[91:07] obviously I've sat down with 700 people,
[91:08] so you get to see lots of things. So
[91:10] it's been a real pleasure and thank you
[91:11] for the inspiration. Thank you.
[91:13] >> Thank you, Steven. I really enjoyed it.
[91:14] It was great.
[91:15] >> Thank you. YouTube have this new crazy
[91:16] algorithm where they know exactly what
[91:19] video you would like to watch next based
[91:21] on AI and all of your viewing behavior.
[91:23] And the algorithm says that this video
[91:26] is the perfect video for you. It's
[91:28] different for everybody looking right
[91:29] now. Check this video out. I bet you you
[91:32] might love it.
