Ross Edgley Cycles Emotional Drivers to Outlast Physical Breakdown

罗斯·埃奇利轮替情绪驱动力以对抗身体崩溃 维持极限耐力需要运动员动态轮换不同的情绪燃料来源，而非仅依靠纯粹的毅力，因为单一的心理驱动力会迅速耗尽多巴胺储备并触发中枢神经系统停摆。 极限耐力运动员罗斯·埃奇利（Ross Edgley）与神经生物学家安德鲁·休伯曼（Andrew Huberman）剖析了非凡人类耐力背后的神经、心理和生理机制。在环绕大不列颠和冰岛创纪录的海泳中，埃奇利展示了前中扣带皮层如何通过动态的“动机之轮”在痛苦与更高维度的目标之间权衡。两人探讨了将大重量力量训练、机械力传导以及策略性认知工具（如第三人称解离、视线焦点管理，以及从阴暗的蔑视转向积极的亲和燃料）相结合，如何在身体发生严重生理崩溃时维持体能输出。最终，埃奇利将艰苦的耐力挑战比作加缪笔下的荒诞英雄，在奋斗本身中寻找充实感。 极限耐力运动员罗斯·埃奇利与安德鲁·休伯曼剖析了“动机之轮”，指出依赖单一情绪驱动必然导致放弃；持续的耐力需要在自豪、愤怒、阴暗的怨恨、亲和性的保护欲以及感激之情之间动态切换。 (11:51) 当竞争对手的体能差距在10%至20%以内时，自上而下的前额叶皮层激活和前中扣带皮层（aMCC）的生长决定了坚持的能力，它就像一个神经天平，权衡着感知到的痛苦与主观意义。 (31:37) 在极限耐力运动中，运动员的失败主要源于结缔组织和关节的崩溃而非心血管局限，这使得大重量最大力量训练至关重要，它能促进机械力传导并强化肌腱以抵御重复性创伤。 (105:48) 视野宽度直接调节自主神经唤醒：将视线收束为精确的“独眼巨人”式聚焦点可激活交感神经运动驱动力和认知警觉性，而扩展至全景视觉则能促进副交感神经张力和生理下调。 (114:59)

Ultra-endurance athlete Ross Edgley and neuroscientist Andrew Huberman argue that extreme resilience relies on dynamically cycling through diverse psychological and neural drivers—spanning intrinsic joy, spite, tribal duty, and ancestral meaning—while maintaining a structurally fortified physical chassis and external safeguards against central nervous system fatigue. Neurobiology of Willpower and Outsourcing Fatigue (11:51) Huberman identifies the anterior midcingulate cortex (aMCC) as the core anatomical hub of willpower and tenacity, citing research by Josef Parvizi where direct electrode stimulation triggered an immediate subjective readiness to confront a looming challenge. The aMCC physically expands when an individual leans into friction and atrophies when hardships are avoided. Edgley connects this neural circuitry to Tim Noakes’s Central Governor model and the psychobiological model of fatigue, explaining that the brain acts as an overprotective hypochondriac, engaging protective physiological brakes long before true biological collapse. Because Edgley characteristically ignores these warning signs—exemplified by pushing through a 56-hour non-stop swim in Loch Ness until his vision blacked out, and risking rhabdomyolysis in 34°C waters at Lake Trasimeno—he argues that extreme athletes must 'outsource common sense.' By transferring total authority to a medical and navigation crew, an athlete can commit fully to performance while allowing external handlers to terminate an attempt before organ failure or fatal hypothermia occurs. The Motivation Wheel: Spite Versus Generative Purpose (54:22) Huberman and Edgley categorize drive not as a monolithic state, but as a multi-spoke 'wheel of motivation.' Antagonistic drivers, such as defiance or skepticism from detractors, provide explosive early momentum. Huberman references Robert Heath’s deep-brain stimulation studies, where patients consistently chose to self-stimulate the midline thalamus to induce motivating feelings of frustration. When confronting localized failure, such as severe shoulder pain in sub-Arctic waters, Edgley directs aggression inward at the specific joint, leveraging primitive hypothalamic self-versus-other circuits to treat the failing limb as an insubordinate partner. However, both agree that combative 'dark fuel' rapidly depletes dopamine and central nervous system resources over prolonged expeditions. For long campaigns like the 1,780-mile Great Britain swim, Edgley prioritizes 'light fuel': smiling (supported by studies demonstrating cyclists last longer when exposed to smiling visual cues), honoring the legacy of his late father Richard, and drawing perspective from companions such as Larry, a terminally ill riverman who steered the lead boat during Edgley's continuous 510-kilometer Yukon River swim. The Strength Reserve and Connective Tissue Durability (106:57) Edgley contends that open-water ultra-endurance failures are rarely caused by poor stroke mechanics or lack of aerobic capacity, but by connective tissue collapse—such as torn tendons or damaged ligaments. Preparing the kinetic chain requires general physical preparedness through heavy strength training, an approach Edgley developed by training with strongmen Eddie Hall and Tom and Luke Stoltman. Citing Olympic swimmer Cameron McEvoy, Edgley explains the concept of the 'strength reserve': elevating absolute maximal strength (such as weighted pull-ups) reduces the percentage of maximal force required for each movement stroke, delaying fatigue and preserving biomechanics across hundreds of miles. To prevent strength sessions from compounding systemic exhaustion, Edgley adheres to rules learned from Olympic sprinter Linford Christie, capping workouts strictly at 45 minutes to prevent technical and neural degradation. He utilizes supramaximal isometric hangs with 80 to 100 kilograms to potentiate the central nervous system without causing muscular exhaustion, followed by working sets where motor recruitment remains elevated. Sensory Modulation, Circadian Disruption, and Chemical Interventions (114:59) Maintaining continuous output under extreme conditions requires managing sensory recruitment and biological rhythms. Huberman explains that narrow optical convergence ('soda straw vision') elevates sympathetic autonomic arousal and physical effort, whereas dilating vision into a panoramic field activates parasympathetic pathways to reduce distress. During multiday events, circadian disruption poses a major hurdle: 24-hour Arctic daylight and erratic six-hour tidal swim intervals around Iceland fragmented Edgley's slow-wave sleep, crushing subjective drive until forced weather layovers allowed restorative eight- to ten-hour sleep resets. Severe environments also introduce acute physiological damage. Prolonged exposure to hypertonic seawater steadily disintegrated Edgley's mucous membranes ('salt tongue'), an affliction he countered by applying coconut oil as a hydrophobic lipid barrier to retain tissue moisture. When severe pain and hypothermia mounted on the Yukon River, his team progressively escalated caffeine intake into multi-gram quantities to reverse central fatigue, while Huberman notes that high-dose creatine (10–20 grams) provides neuroprotective benefits and rescues physical vigor following acute sleep loss. Edgley and Huberman conclude that sustainable extreme performance requires cognitive flexibility—rotating between intrinsic pleasure, spite, and tribal purpose—alongside heavy structural conditioning. However, an unresolved question remains regarding how compulsive, high-arousal endurance drives can be safely reconciled with long-term domestic life, fatherhood, and physiological health once an athlete's physical prime wanes.

耐力运动员Ross Edgley与神经生物学家Andrew Huberman探讨了人类在极端耐力挑战中的意志力机制，指出持久的动力并非依赖单一的心理或生理技巧，而是由神经环路重塑、动机轮盘切换、底层力量储备与支持团队的协同作用共同构成的复杂系统。 意志力的神经生物学基础与内在驱动力 (11:51) Huberman指出，大脑中的前扣带皮层中段（aMCC）是坚韧与意志力的核心神经中枢。Stanford神经外科医生Josef Parvizi在对清醒患者进行局部电极刺激的临床研究中发现，患者会瞬间产生直面风暴与挑战的强烈意志。该结构通过接受来自杏仁核、记忆中枢与黑质纹状体多巴胺通路的输入来综合计算目标与情绪，在个体反复主动选择面对不愿承受的艰难挑战时会发生物理性增大，而在逃避困难时则会退化。这一神经机制呼应了啮齿类动物的“管中测试”（tube test），即背外侧前额叶皮层（DLPFC）的神经元激活程度直接决定了动物在面对同伴推挤竞争时的坚持程度与优势地位。 Edgley结合自身童年经历说明了这种高多巴胺张力与纯粹内在驱动的起源。他在10岁与家人徒步时，便常在背包中偷塞大石头以主动增加身体负荷，完全将过程与生理劳作本身视作内源性奖励，而非为了向他人炫耀。面对极度艰苦的挑战，Edgley借用哲学家Albert Camus在《西西弗斯神话》中的观点，认为纯粹的西西弗斯式推石上山过程与抗争本身便足以充实内心，将荒谬与苦难转化为持续前行的核心支柱。 疲劳心理生物学模型与常识外包策略 (38:45) 在探讨人类运动极限时，Edgley提到了Tim Noakes教授提出的中央执政官模型（Central Governor Model）和疲劳心理生物学框架。该理论表明，大脑扮演着过度保护的“疑病症患者”角色，往往在身体发生真正的致命生物学崩溃之前便过早拉下生理手刹，以保护肌肉与机能免遭毁灭。然而，Edgley指出自身存在一种生理特质，即倾向于无视大脑的预警信号，并在身体发出危险警报时反而猛踩油门。例如他在意大利Trasimeno湖游泳时，在气温超40°C、水温达34°C的极度易引发横纹肌溶解的高温环境下连续游了37小时、接近100公里，直至身体接近衰竭。 由于在尼斯湖56小时不间断游泳时经历了视野急剧收缩最终在医院昏迷醒来的极端崩溃，Edgley意识到单纯依靠个人意志力会跨越生理红线。他因此提出了“将常识外包给后勤团队”的运作模式，赋予支持团队绝对的叫停权力。Edgley强调，在冰岛逆流游进或育空河浮木激流等极端环境中，单人超长距离游泳从本质上是一项“我们”而非“我”的团队项目；水面上的个人专注划水节奏与疼痛管理，而团队则负责水流潮汐测算、航向纠正与医疗风险阻截，从而在保护生命安全的前提下探寻人类表现的生理极限。 动机轮盘：从恶意燃料到代际使命 (54:22) Huberman与Edgley将人类维持长期坚韧的心理机制解构为一个多轴交替运转的“动力轮盘”（Wheel of Motivation）。轮盘的轴辐包含了履行言语承诺、对失败的蔑视反叛、纯粹的快乐以及对社群与亲人的责任感。Huberman援引Robert Heath的深部脑刺激实验解释了负面情绪的神经诱惑力：当清醒患者能够自主按键刺激不同脑区时，最常被选择的并非引起欣快或微醺的区域，而是能引发轻度挫败感与愤怒的中线丘脑电极。这种“黑暗能量”（如外部质疑、对抗愤怒）具有极高的启动推进力，但也会快速耗竭多巴胺并造成生理损耗；相比之下，基于爱与意义的“光明能量”更利于长期维持。 Edgley通过具体的极限量化实例说明了不同动机轴辐的动态切换。面对长达百天以上的环大不列颠岛游泳（1,780英里），来自网络喷子与怀疑者的言论在早期充当了强大的起步燃料，但当长期处于海中时，持续攻击性自我批判会让人情绪衰竭，促使他转向科学证明能提升力竭耐受极限的“微笑机制”。当身体局部发生剧烈损伤时，他将右肩等部位在意识中外化为不服从指令的合作对手加以斥责，激活下丘脑的“我们对抗他们”的战斗机制。在环冰岛游泳期间，Edgley更将动力源泉锚定在代际精神传承上——将历程献给因黑色素瘤去世的父亲与即将出生的儿子，通过责任感与超越个体的利他意义激发持久耐力。 结构底盘、神经强化与极端环境生理支持 (106:57) 在体能准备方面，Edgley强调超长距离耐力运动的生理瓶颈往往不在于心肺技巧，而在于结缔组织在承受数十万次动作重复时的结构崩溃，即“底盘散架”。通过与世界最强壮男士Tom Stoltman和Eddie Hall等选手的重训合作，Edgley建立了异于传统耐力运动员的巨大肌肉量，利用“力量储备”（Strength Reserve）原理确保每一次划水消耗的仅是其最大肌力的一小部分，从而延缓疲劳并保护韧带关节。其抗阻训练受短跑冠军Linford Christie指导，严格限制在45分钟以内以防止中枢神经疲劳，利用80至100公斤负重引体悬垂激活中枢神经后，再进行工作组训练，并每日轮换绝对力量、速度爆发与容量刺激。 在极端环境应对与神经生物学干预上，视觉焦点与药理学调节起到了关键支撑作用。Huberman解释道，双眼聚焦目标会提高自主神经唤醒度与能量募集，而视野泛化则能激活副交感神经降低焦虑。在育空河510公里不间断游泳时，面对严重的体温过低、肩部剧痛与思维反刍，Edgley通过阶段性大剂量补充咖啡因（单次达400毫克，全天达数克级别）来快速重置主观疲劳认知。此外，针对极端剥夺睡眠的耐力赛事，Huberman指出清晨补充10至20克肌酸可有效减轻睡眠匮乏带来的认知损害与精力下降；Edgley同时采用外涂椰子油建立疏水屏障的方式，成功解决了在长期高渗海水浸泡下口腔粘膜严重脱落的“盐舌”创伤。 本期对话揭示了人类意志与耐力极限并非不可捉摸的抽象意志，而是深度锚定在前额叶与扣带皮层的神经可塑性、肌肉结缔组织的物理储备、多维动机体系以及团队保障之上。尽管外界往往关注极端超人般的肉体壮举，但在面对真正的生物学不可逆衰竭前，科学界定主观坚韧与生理危险的边界，依然依赖于理性认知与严格的外部监控机制。

[56:30] Ross Edgley: Your reasons to continue need to be bigger than your reasons to stop. [157:42] Andrew Huberman: An intellectual is by definition someone who can parse and communicate things at multiple levels of granularity. [127:13] Andrew Huberman: When I hear about people immediately getting on gear at age 20, 30, 40 in the absence of a clinical need, I'm like, you'll never really know what you can do without it. [72:25] Andrew Huberman: You should be paid for the work you love and that serves the world. [109:38] Ross Edgley: By focusing on the outcome, you're not focusing on the process. [16:05] Ross Edgley: Adversity introduces you to you.

[0:00] So, Cisphus was one of the the cleverest [0:01] humans to ever exist in ancient [0:03] mythology. Was able to outsmart the gods [0:05] and he even chained up death at one [0:06] point which made the gods really angry [0:08] because basically people were fighting [0:09] wars and there were no no one was dying. [0:12] So, there was no souls going into the [0:13] underworld. So, Hades was really pissed [0:15] off. Anyway, eventually he dies and the [0:17] gods are just livid. So, they're like, [0:18] "Look, we're going to we're going to [0:19] punish you and what we're going to do is [0:20] we're going to make you roll a boulder [0:21] up a hill for eternity and just as it [0:23] gets to the top of the hill, it's going [0:24] to roll back down and you're just going [0:26] to do that for eternity." just this like [0:28] absurd like completely thankless task. [0:31] But then it was Albert Camu the [0:33] philosopher who said he was able to [0:34] outsmart the gods one more time and [0:36] that's if you imagine that Seephus was [0:39] smiling. And this is the part I love. He [0:40] said because the struggle alone is [0:43] enough to fill a man's heart. And I [0:45] think for me they've even coined the [0:46] phrase that that Seephus was the absurd [0:48] hero. And I I I think for me swimming [0:52] sometimes I'm like this is Seephus. This [0:54] is my boulder. You know it's not going [0:56] anywhere. But the struggle alone is [0:59] enough to fill a man's heart. [1:00] >> Welcome to the Hubberman Lab podcast [1:02] where we discuss science and [1:04] science-based tools [music] for everyday [1:05] life. [1:09] I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor [1:11] of neurobiology and opthalmology at [1:13] Stanford School of Medicine. My guest [1:16] today is Ross Edgely. Ross Edgely is a [1:18] British ultra endurance athlete who has [1:20] accomplished such feats as swimming [1:22] around Great Britain, which by the way [1:24] is nearly 2,000 miles in distance, and [1:26] it took him nearly 157 days. He also [1:29] swam 317 mi of the Yukon River [1:32] continuously, meaning non-stop for 56 [1:35] hours. He's run a full marathon pulling [1:37] a car, a full-size car by the way, and [1:39] he's done 30 marathons in 30 days and [1:42] much more. All of that is, of course, [1:44] super impressive. But the reason Ross is [1:47] a guest on this podcast in particular is [1:49] because both he and I wanted to discuss [1:51] brain circuits and the psychology that [1:53] allow humans, any humans, to engage and [1:56] build up their mindset for motivation. [1:58] So today we explore and develop in real [2:01] time what we really can say is a new [2:03] model of motivation to do hard things. [2:05] One that includes all the possible [2:07] sources of drive to prove others wrong, [2:09] to celebrate life out of love, out of [2:12] anger, to honor those who can't. to [2:14] fight mental stagnation and on and on. [2:17] What's so special about Ross and again [2:19] another reason why he's here on this [2:20] podcast in particular is because not [2:23] only has he accomplished all these [2:24] incredible things, but he has the most [2:26] incredible level of curiosity. He [2:29] absolutely wants to understand the [2:30] underlying neural machinery and [2:32] psychology of motivation. What's allowed [2:34] him to do hard things? What can allow [2:36] you to do hard things in different [2:37] contexts of life? And in doing that, [2:40] Ross brings forward new ways of thinking [2:42] about brain plasticity and how to [2:44] reshape your brain in order to make [2:46] yourself better. I should also mention [2:48] that Ross has a new book out, one that I [2:49] am personally excited to read and to [2:51] listen to, and it's entitled How to [2:54] Hero: Find Strength, Forge Resilience, [2:56] and Fulfill Your Purpose. You can find a [2:58] link to that in the show not caption. [3:00] Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize [3:02] that this podcast is separate from my [3:03] teaching and research roles at Stanford. [3:05] It is however part of my desire and [3:07] effort to bring zero cost to consumer [3:09] information about science and science [3:10] related tools to the general public. In [3:12] keeping with that theme, today's episode [3:14] does include sponsors. And now for my [3:16] conversation with Ross Edgely. Ross [3:19] Edgely, welcome. [3:20] >> Thank you so much. [3:21] >> We're going to need a bigger chair. [3:23] [laughter] [3:23] This feels surreal. I mean, we were just [3:25] talking off air, weren't we? That um so [3:27] much of your teachings helped me across [3:29] the Arctic Circle. Just jellyfish [3:31] bouncing off my face, tongue coming off. [3:33] This feels very weird. Uh, I'm honored [3:35] that you're here. I'm very curious about [3:37] you and what you do and how we can uh [3:40] hopefully translate some of that into [3:42] actions that people can take, thoughts, [3:45] thought patterns, control of their own [3:48] thoughts that people can explore and [3:50] perhaps adopt to have a better, more [3:52] enriched life, which is obviously the [3:55] purpose of it all. [3:57] Take me back because I I've read about [3:59] you. I've read about your [4:00] accomplishments. I have smatterings of [4:02] things that you've done and why. But [4:04] you're 41 years old now, right? [4:06] >> I am. [4:06] >> Yep. [4:06] >> Let's do this in snapshotish [4:10] fashion. [4:13] 10year-old Ross, what's he doing? What's [4:16] he thinking? What's his strength? And [4:19] where is he struggling? I think even as [4:21] as far back as 10, I was aware that um I [4:24] was just wired a little bit weirdly. You [4:26] know, my dopamine kind of works a bit [4:27] differently. My my family, we love going [4:29] on hikes. And I never forget at 10 years [4:31] old, uh, my dad he was taking me and my [4:33] two brothers on this huge hike and it it [4:35] just wasn't enough for me this hike. I [4:37] was just like, ah, you know, I kind of [4:38] want to make it harder. So dad caught me [4:40] putting rocks in my backpack and just [4:42] putting it on my back and then walking [4:44] up cuz I just I needed more of a [4:45] challenge. Otherwise, it just kind of [4:47] wasn't fulfilling something inside of [4:48] me. And I think even now looking ahead, [4:52] fast forward, you know, 30 years and I'm [4:54] still doing the same thing. When I come [4:56] up with an idea for a swim, if I tell [4:58] someone this idea and they go, "Oh, [5:00] yeah, that that sounds quite good." I [5:02] go, "That's terrible." You know, you're [5:03] not shocked by it. But if I tell someone [5:05] a swim and they go, "Well, that's [5:06] impossible. That's ridiculous." Like [5:08] swimming around Great Britain, swimming [5:10] around Iceland, I'm like, "That's the [5:12] one." You know, if people are just like, [5:13] "That's absurd." I'm like, "Then that's [5:16] the idea." So, I think even as far back [5:17] as 10, I was aware that my brain was [5:21] wired slightly differently. if you don't [5:23] mind me asking, was the idea of putting [5:25] rocks in your backpack in part to show [5:28] others that you could do more? Like, and [5:30] and no um shame if it was. I mean, I [5:34] think we all have an ego and we all um [5:37] want to test ourselves, but the feedback [5:39] that we get is often important too. So, [5:42] as a calibration point, if nothing else. [5:44] So, let's say you were hiking alone. [5:47] Hopefully, you weren't hiking alone at [5:48] 10, but if you could imagine you were, [5:51] to the best of your abilities, do you [5:53] think that you would have been loading [5:56] those rocks in just for you? Yeah, I [5:59] think I would. I think for for me, [6:01] again, being so self analytical, it was [6:03] always an intrinsic motivation. The [6:05] process was its own reward. There wasn't [6:07] really anything extrinsic. If anything, [6:08] I was keeping the rocks secret. I didn't [6:10] want my dad finding out. When he found [6:11] them, he was just like, "Right, take [6:12] them out. I'll give you some food or [6:14] something that's actually functional." [6:16] So, so I was actually hiding them from [6:17] that. It was just something that that I [6:19] wanted to do that when I got home I'd be [6:21] like, "Right, I was able to do that." [6:22] And I think um it's changed a lot though [6:24] as well. I I think again sort of jumping [6:27] a little bit to to swimming around Great [6:28] Britain. I did that when I was 32 years [6:31] old and and I spoke about it at the time [6:34] that for me it was very much ego-driven. [6:38] Uh I I talked about Captain Web 1875, [6:40] first guy to swim across the English [6:42] Channel. did it on beef broth and brandy [6:44] and swam breaststroke because front [6:46] crawl was on gentlemanly like so he just [6:47] crushed it all the way across the [6:49] English channel wasn't for charity [6:51] wasn't for anything like that he just [6:52] wanted to pioneer our understanding of [6:54] swimming and human endurance and for me [6:56] swimming around great Britain was [6:58] exactly that it was looking at Maslo's [7:00] hierarchy of needs it was feelings of [7:03] accomplishment prestige recognition it [7:06] was all of those things ego driven after [7:08] that that that then felt a little bit [7:11] shallow I was a bit like ah you know to [7:13] just do it for records that feels a bit [7:16] fragile a bit shallow feels a bit [7:18] strange and then and then it was the [7:19] swim around Iceland where the University [7:21] of Iceland said we want to do something [7:23] to to raise awareness around our ocean [7:25] conservation efforts uh but also as well [7:27] if we could collect edna samples so [7:30] environmental DNA samples that just [7:32] basically pick up if there's been a [7:33] whale in the water a seal a Ross edgely [7:35] whatever it is um we could track the [7:37] biodiversity in a level of detail around [7:39] ISO that we've never seen before upon [7:41] Upon hearing that I was like right that [7:44] feels like a better reason. It's not [7:45] just records that feels better and that [7:47] I did when I was was 40. So it has been [7:49] interesting. I think quite often [7:51] sometimes it is intrinsically motivated [7:53] but but then a little bit later it told [7:56] my hands off it was ego driven. It was [7:58] extrinsic. Um I wanted to be the guy the [8:01] first person to swim around Great [8:02] Britain. And then now for various things [8:06] that changed in my life. I I think it's [8:08] like almost moving up Maslo's hierarchy [8:10] that I'm not going to quite say [8:11] self-actualization, but we're looking [8:14] for something a little bit more than [8:15] records. I think [8:16] >> staying with the 10 roughly 10year-old [8:19] uh Ross Edgely. Were you always very [8:22] expressive? You had a lot of spontaneous [8:24] energy. you like and have you always [8:27] woken up uh like ready to roll or are [8:30] you kind of like a a a slow slow grind [8:33] into the morning or is it let's go, you [8:35] know, [laughter] [8:36] >> just let's go. I've always just been [8:37] like that. I I think as well like I I've [8:40] kind of got a handle on it now, but like [8:42] when I was young I was so competitive [8:45] and and such a bad loser. There was um [8:47] [laughter] my dad I remember he he was [8:50] one of the very few people who actually [8:51] understood how to to manage me and I I [8:54] remember I did a a school cross country. [8:55] I think I was about 13 years old and um [8:58] the guy I came second the guy that beat [9:00] me deserved to win. He was a better [9:02] athlete. He beat me fair and square but [9:05] I was livid and afterwards I just [9:07] wouldn't speak to anyone and I stormed [9:09] off. I refused to go and pick up my [9:11] medal. I said, "Second place is the [9:12] first loser." And I started to run home. [9:15] And my dad just slowly got in the car [9:18] and just followed me all the way home [9:19] just to make sure I was safe. But he was [9:21] like, "I'm just going to have to let it [9:21] get it out of his system." I think it [9:23] was 10 miles when I got back home. This [9:24] was after the cross country. I had [9:26] blisters. I was tired. I was exhausted. [9:28] But by the time I got home, I was like, [9:30] "Maybe I'd overreacted there, Dad. I'm [9:33] I'm so sorry." [laughter] And he just [9:35] let me realize that on my own. Like I [9:37] said, I think I've got a bit more of a [9:38] handle on it, but equally, and this is [9:41] something I actually wanted to to quiz [9:43] you about because I love your your work [9:45] that you've been talking about um you [9:47] know, broadcasting the the anterior mids [9:49] singular cortex for me and this is a [9:52] massive oversimplification. So I'm going [9:53] to apologize on where I'm speaking to [9:55] you, but as a coping mechanism upon [9:58] hearing that and the the podcast that [9:59] you did with David Gogggins, I thought [10:01] about the anterior midsulate cortex [10:02] almost like grit and quit, pain and [10:05] purpose, like weighing scales constantly [10:07] like this. And for anyone listening, I [10:09] hope it helps as well that if you've got [10:11] these weighing scales, pain and purpose, [10:13] if it's really painful, if your tongue [10:15] is falling off and swinging across the [10:16] Arctic Circle 114 days at sea, then you [10:19] need a lot of purpose to tip those [10:21] scales. But equally, sometimes you can, [10:25] you know, talk about ocean conservation, [10:27] all the amazing things that we were [10:28] doing it for. But equally, there can be [10:31] um Carl Young talked about your shadow [10:33] self, you know, a part of your psyche [10:35] that you keep away from the public. [10:37] Maybe you're aggressive, hyperco [10:39] competitive, jealous, and you you kind [10:41] of like tuck that away. Whereas Carl [10:44] Young and Jordan Peterson talking about, [10:45] you know, that is a monster. You know, [10:47] it it can be useful. It's not bad having [10:49] a monster inside of you. It's bad when [10:51] you can't put him back in the cage. And [10:53] so when swimming around Iceland, again, [10:56] going back to that anterior mingul [10:57] cortex pain and purpose. There was some [11:00] people online who was just like, "This [11:01] is stupid. He's never going to do it." I [11:02] even had media partners as well just [11:04] going, "Oh, Ross, this has been good, [11:06] but maybe we wrap this up now." You [11:07] know, I I don't think this is possible. [11:09] And so then that 10year-old, that hyper [11:13] competitive like side of me ended up [11:16] coming out. I'm now just going to do [11:18] this because people don't think I can. [11:20] So it's really strange that you know [11:22] I'll use different parts of motivation [11:26] and I suppose my question to you that [11:28] I've wanted to ask since crossing [11:29] Iceland is does the anterior micular [11:32] cortex does that respond sometimes to [11:35] your shadow self? Can you have a darker [11:37] form of energy? I know Gogggins for [11:39] instance will speak to himself and be [11:41] like man up you know who's going to [11:42] carry the boats everything. Whereas me [11:44] sometimes I try to do it through [11:46] gratitude but but sometimes I do find [11:48] that form of fuel [11:50] >> useful for those that might not have uh [11:53] heard me talk about it before or the [11:55] David Gogggins episode just very briefly [11:57] for our listeners. The anterior [11:58] midsulate cortex is this brain region [12:00] that my colleague at Stanford Joe [12:02] Parvevesy discovered when he was [12:04] stimulating in humans. He's a [12:05] neurosurgeon when stimulated people [12:08] report verbally because these [12:10] experiments they literally have a piece [12:11] of the skull removed. They're [12:12] stimulating with an electrode. I've seen [12:14] these sorts of experiments. Not those [12:16] exact ones, but and they can talk. [12:18] They're awake. Head is fixed in a [12:20] stereotype, so they're not moving [12:21] around, but and they'll say, "It feels [12:23] as if there's a storm coming, but I am [12:26] going to lean into it. I feel like [12:27] there's a major challenge of some sort [12:29] coming and but I'm going to fight this [12:31] challenge." Okay, so it's tenacity, [12:33] willpower, etc. And there's a lot more [12:35] to it, but that's just in case um anyone [12:37] hasn't heard us talk about it or others [12:39] talk about it before. The anterids [12:41] singulate cortex is a very interesting [12:44] structure because it receives inputs and [12:46] outputs from many many brain areas [12:49] including the amygdala, including the [12:51] memory centers, including the dopamine [12:53] reward system, the nigriadal pathway and [12:55] on and on. And so despite what we know [12:58] about it, it enlarges when people do [13:00] hard things. It shrinks when people tend [13:04] to shy away from hard things. Its [13:06] activity and size correlates with [13:08] success in doing hard things. can build [13:09] it up by doing hard things that you [13:11] don't want to do, etc., etc. We still [13:14] don't really know. No, I think it's fair [13:16] to say we don't know the computations, [13:19] the math that it's doing. We're not yet [13:21] at the place in neuroscience where we [13:23] can say, ah, the anterior midsulate [13:25] cortex computes prior notion of self [13:28] with goal, with purpose, with fear, with [13:31] anger, with love. And this is the [13:34] computation that leads to persistence [13:36] versus quitting, deliberation versus [13:39] assuredness. We don't know yet. [13:41] >> So it's not a total black box as we say, [13:44] but there's still a lot that's not [13:45] known. And in fact, I think we can start [13:48] to understand more about tenacity and [13:51] willpower at least at this point in [13:52] history by talking to people like you in [13:57] particular to you about the anterior [13:59] midsulate cortex. Then the anterior mids [14:02] singulate cortex recordings can tell us [14:04] about you. Does that make sense? [14:05] >> It does. Yeah. [14:06] >> So in the future at some point we will [14:08] have the technologies to be able to [14:09] unpack the the computations with a lot [14:11] of precision. [14:13] There are people developing those [14:14] technologies but they're not there yet. [14:16] So I want to be careful to not say [14:18] things that we don't know. But here's [14:21] what I was thinking coming into this [14:22] podcast today. So we can find posts on [14:26] Instagram, full podcasts, books and [14:30] historical records and on and on of [14:32] people that did very very hard things [14:35] for just about every different reason. [14:38] And so rather than a teeter totter that [14:40] goes from quitting versus persistence, [14:44] I have this mental model that I'm [14:45] wondering if you'll be willing to [14:46] entertain with me today through your [14:48] story whereby let's imagine a a beam of [14:53] wood balanced in the middle, but another [14:56] beam of wood that's at a right angle to [14:58] that. So it looks like a cross also [15:00] balanced in the middle. And then another [15:01] beam of wood and another beam of wood. [15:03] So you can just imagine this as like [15:04] spokes on a wheel and it's balancing. [15:06] And as long as no side touches the [15:08] ground for too long, you persist. [15:12] >> And so what I came up with is a name [15:14] assignment for each of those spokes. And [15:16] so if you're willing, I thought it might [15:18] be informative and fun for me to just [15:21] call out each one of these one by one. [15:24] >> This is awesome. Take the time you need [15:26] to recall a time when if and only if you [15:30] were calling on that particular emotion [15:33] set that motivation [15:35] and paint a picture for us. [15:37] >> This is awesome. So you've taken my [15:39] modeling and just literally like like [15:41] two-dimensional. You made it like [15:42] fourdimensional. This is um [15:44] >> well threedimensional. You're going to [15:45] add the fourth dimension. [laughter] [15:48] >> So pressure no pressure. No pressure. [15:51] Um, so this is a little bit like a [15:53] qualifying exam and and no, it's not an [15:55] exam. This is [laughter] this is for um [15:57] informative and entertainment purposes. [15:59] But the cool part here is it's not a [16:01] movie. It's real. It's your life and the [16:03] incredible things you've done. So, let's [16:06] start with [16:08] doing something because you said you [16:11] would. No other reason. Just because you [16:13] said you would, either to yourself or to [16:15] the world. Forget what they're saying in [16:18] response. Forget who it's for. But just [16:22] why? Because you said you would. Have [16:24] there ever been times when you've done [16:26] something simply because you said you [16:29] would. 100%. That that was Iceland. [16:31] Yeah. That that I was just like, "You [16:33] said you were going to do this. You, you [16:34] know, or even and the Great British [16:36] Swim, I think more so because I told [16:39] sponsors and everybody I was going to do [16:41] it." And it was my older brother as [16:42] well. He's amazing in that he can just [16:44] kind of like take a complex situation [16:46] and just really simplify it. We broke [16:48] the record as we went around Scotland. [16:50] um for the longest uh stage C swim and [16:53] everyone celebrated. They were like, [16:54] "This is amazing." And Scott was just [16:56] like, "Yeah, but it's going to count for [16:57] nothing unless you actually finish it." [16:58] And I was like, "Do you know what? [16:59] You're right." And so I think, yeah, [17:01] that so often it it just came down to [17:05] that void of records and everything. [17:07] It's like, you'll look like an idiot if [17:09] you don't finish this. You said you were [17:10] going to do it. It's important to [17:11] yourself. And also as well, void of [17:13] anything extrinsic, [17:15] looking yourself in the mirror. I think [17:18] um Einstein when he said adversity [17:20] introduces you to you. I think you know [17:22] you realize the most honest version of [17:24] yourself when you're in an absolute [17:26] hole. And I think um selfrespect [17:30] that I would know if I had quit and I [17:33] actually could have finished it. So [17:34] yeah, I I yeah, I think probably all of [17:37] them I've done it because I said I [17:39] would, not because of how I'd be [17:41] perceived publicly how I would think of [17:44] myself when I looked in the mirror. I'd [17:46] like to take a quick break to [17:47] acknowledge one of our sponsors, David. [17:50] David makes protein bars unlike any [17:52] other. Their newest bar, the Bronze Bar, [17:54] has 20 gram of protein, only 150 [17:57] calories, and zero gram of sugar. 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I mean, I realize along these very [20:12] long journeys and and and expeditions, [20:16] whatever you want to call them, these [20:17] super challenges, that your mind must go [20:19] to all sorts of places, dark and light [20:21] and everything in between. [20:24] When you're getting into the water, is [20:26] it cold? Does it feel cold? Or you like, [20:28] I've been here before. This isn't cold. [20:30] It gets easier the longer it goes on. By [20:32] the end of Iceland, I think I just [20:34] habituated that form of stress. Almost [20:36] had stress inoculation training. At [20:38] first, when you're trying to habituate [20:40] like the the sleep deprivation, the [20:42] cold, uh you wake up and if you've left [20:45] your wets suit out, you have to crack [20:46] the ice off the wet suit before you can [20:47] even put it on and then get in it. it by [20:50] the end you are just numb to it you know [20:52] and and and whatever's happened there [20:53] that habituation of the stress uh [20:56] whether my anterior mids singular cortex [20:57] has grown whatever it is it it by the [21:00] end it still registers but you're you [21:03] don't have an emotional response to it [21:05] anymore. So, let's pick a different one. [21:07] Not just because you said you would, but [21:09] because you don't want to disappoint, [21:14] which is different, right? You don't [21:16] want to carry the shame of someone else [21:19] mirroring to you that you said you would [21:22] do something and you didn't. So, we [21:23] could call this fear, fear of shame. And [21:27] you know, no one likes to talk about [21:28] these darker energies that can drive [21:31] people, but [21:32] >> we'd be lying if these weren't powerful [21:34] motivators for people throughout [21:36] history. So, um, do you recall a time, [21:39] um, could be any time when fear of shame [21:42] was a driving force? Absolutely. [21:44] Iceland, this is the easiest one to [21:46] answer. So, so towards the end we had a [21:48] 100 miles to finish basically and I was [21:51] basically uh the baby was due the first [21:54] the birth of my first child was due in a [21:57] week's time. We had 100 miles still to [21:58] cover. We had hurricane Eron coming [22:00] through the Atlantic. Over in Grindic on [22:03] the West Coast, there was a volcano that [22:04] went off that basically was spewing [22:06] poisonous gas. So, we couldn't get close [22:07] to that. And over here, we had one of [22:09] Europe's largest glaciers that was just [22:10] sending shards of ice as big as this [22:12] table. And the team and everyone was [22:14] just like, "Ross, I'm I'm so sorry. [22:16] we're going to be here for 2 weeks in [22:17] the harbor. And I was like, "No, no, no. [22:19] I'm so sorry. We need to go out. I need [22:21] to be back for the birth of my child." [22:23] Not not only for my girlfriend, she's [22:25] amazing. I've been with her 13 years. [22:26] The the look on her face, the [22:28] disappointment that was going through my [22:30] head, but then also as well, just [22:31] knowing that I wasn't going to be there [22:32] to welcome my son into this world. So, [22:35] that one 100% fear of failure, fear of [22:39] letting people down Iceland. And I [22:40] gunned it and finished the final 100 [22:42] miles purely fueled on that. The the [22:46] University of ICE and everything and the [22:48] that was important. The Edna samples [22:50] tracking biodiversity pad in comparison [22:53] to you're not going to be there to [22:54] welcome your son into the world. So I [22:56] just gunned it. [22:57] >> I notice you say we whenever you talk [22:59] about these expeditions, not I. Is that [23:01] just your nature or is it I realize [23:03] these are probably team efforts, but [23:04] that's a I think it's an important [23:07] point. [23:08] Do you know I'm glad you picked up on [23:09] that just because I think especially [23:11] with sea swims that they are such a team [23:13] event and in no way am I you saying [23:16] that's to self-deprecate it genuinely is [23:18] in that if we read the tides wrong or [23:22] the weather or whatever then then I'm [23:24] going backwards. You can be the best [23:25] swimmer in the world. You get the tides [23:26] wrong in Iceland you're going backwards [23:28] and it happened a few times [23:29] >> actually backwards. [23:30] >> Actually backwards. Yeah. Yeah. Up up up [23:31] up at the Penland Fur on on the Great [23:33] British swim for instance that's in the [23:34] top of Scotland. Um, you can be [23:37] traveling at 10 knots if you get it [23:39] right. That is almost the cruising speed [23:42] of a dolphin. But you get it wrong, [23:43] you're going backwards at 10. You could [23:45] you could be Michael Phelps [laughter] [23:46] and you're still going backwards. So, it [23:49] genuinely is just like such a team event [23:51] or the Yukon for instance as well. It [23:54] was a maze just kind of of these [23:56] countercurrens, whirlpools, log jams. [23:59] There was a time when I was swimming and [24:00] a log came back the other way and the [24:03] team in the Yukon were just amazing at [24:05] just reading the river. So, so I I genu [24:08] I say we because it's a team event. I'm [24:10] just the one who has to get in the [24:12] water. Genuinely. [24:13] >> Yeah. Cuz you can't be thinking about [24:14] whether or not you're headed into [24:16] certain danger beyond what you're [24:18] already in. I mean, you need to be able [24:20] to concentrate on your stroke, your [24:21] breathing, um your mental frame, like [24:25] whether or not your toes are falling [24:26] off. Have you been frostbitten on these? [24:29] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I've picked up loads. [24:31] This is strange from, you know, [24:32] hypothermia, hypothermia, rabdomiolyis, [24:35] cellulitis, you know, picked up a [24:38] >> What's cellulitis? [24:39] >> Ah, cellulitis sounds like infection. [24:41] >> Exactly that. Yeah, a skin infection. [24:43] But basically, I picked that up in Loch [24:44] Ness cuz it was fresh water. Um, [24:47] basically the the wet suit was chafing [24:49] it got so deep it turned infected. Uh, [24:51] and then if that gets in your lymph [24:53] nodes or your bloodstream, it can be [24:54] fatal. Uh, it was a really strange [24:56] position to be in as well because it was [24:58] a 56-hour non-stop swim. The water is [25:01] about four degrees, barely above free. [25:02] >> No stop for sleep. [25:03] >> No, no, no. So, non-stop swim. You can't [25:05] touch anybody. No one can touch you. You [25:07] can't touch the boat. You just, you just [25:08] swim 56 hours. And towards the end, it [25:11] was so strange cuz I had hypothermia. [25:13] So, my core temperature, I could feel [25:15] just I was shaking from the inside. It [25:16] was in my bones, but my skin was on fire [25:20] from the cellulitis. So, it was this [25:22] strange attack on my physiology. But [25:25] yeah, to answer your question, picking [25:26] up a fair few of those, it's really [25:28] strange that it recalibrates your [25:31] perception to pain. And swimming around [25:33] Iceland, there were times when I was [25:34] really cold and I was like, it's not as [25:36] bad as Loch Ness. I'm still okay. I'd [25:39] look at wounds around my neck and [25:40] everything and I'll go, "Oh, that's [25:42] that's not too bad. It doesn't it [25:43] doesn't smell infected. We're good." [25:45] >> Trophies um for a sicko like you. Um, do [25:49] do you believe in the Loch Ness monster? [25:52] >> Something touched my leg. Honestly, [25:54] [laughter] [25:54] I love all of it. It was so interesting. [25:56] I got so [25:58] sort of I was I don't want Yeah, it [26:00] probably was. It was like a spiritual [26:01] experience. And I think by, you know, [26:04] that point was it nature who said, you [26:06] know, whoever fights monsters should see [26:08] to it that he doesn't become a monster [26:09] himself. For if you gaze into the abyss [26:12] too long, the abyss gazes back into you. [26:14] And I think for me swimming through Loch [26:16] Ness that was going through my head and [26:19] I definitely stared into the abyss too [26:21] long. Um it was going well up until 56 [26:23] hours and then lit I just remember [26:26] almost it was very gradual but you were [26:28] like looking and your tunnel vision just [26:29] got narrower and narrow. So you were [26:31] looking through the the eye of a needle [26:33] and then it just went black and I [26:35] remember waking up and my girlfriend and [26:37] my mom were at the head of my hospital [26:38] bed and I just looked up and I just went [26:40] ah [sighs] [26:41] it's not gone well has it? and they were [26:43] like, "No, Ross, [laughter] it's not [26:44] gone well at all." So, I think learning [26:48] from that, to go back to what you're [26:50] saying about hypothermia thing, it's [26:51] nice now knowing that with the Iceland [26:54] swim, having graduated in Loch Ness, I [26:57] was like, "Look, let's not let's not [26:59] become a monster. Let's not stare into [27:01] the abyss too long." Did you go back and [27:03] do and do that one? [27:04] >> Loch Ness, I want to I've got unfinished [27:06] business there. I keep wondering since I [27:08] was a kid, why don't they just drain [27:09] Loch Ness and solve this Loch Ness [27:11] monster thing once and for all. [27:12] [laughter] [27:12] >> I know, right? [27:13] >> It's not good for the tourist trade [27:14] though, you know? I mean, yeah. I always [27:16] think if it's real, how cool is that? [27:18] And if it's not, [27:20] >> um, what a what a remarkable way to [27:22] increase tourist traffic to a location, [27:25] you create a a myth and a mystique, [27:28] something that's dangerous, but not so [27:29] dangerous that people are afraid to go. [27:31] >> For sure. you know, you seed the world [27:33] with a few photo like that's what they [27:35] clearly one or the other happened, [27:37] right? Or some combination. [27:38] >> Yeah. But I I love that you brought that [27:40] up as well because swimming around [27:41] Iceland at the start, you know, I heard [27:45] about, you know, elves and trolls and [27:47] mountains were trolls that didn't make [27:48] it back before sunset and sunrise. All [27:50] of these stories. I was like, "Oh, that [27:52] that's cool. That's a cool story." [27:54] Swimming around it, there is something [27:56] in the water. There were events. [27:58] [clears throat] So, I I got a block [27:59] ceremony. So basically, it's almost like [28:01] a an ancient chief um a modern day form [28:04] of of that. And he basically gave me a [28:05] blot ceremony where he blessed the swim [28:08] and it was just amazing speaking to him. [28:10] He said like, "Ross, you know, I I think [28:13] you'll die, you know, but um you know, [28:15] it'll be a good saga, you know, that the [28:16] Icelandic sense of humor." [28:18] >> That was the send off. [28:19] >> That was [laughter] the send off. [28:21] >> Even at the start as well, I remember I [28:23] did a swim [28:24] >> and afterwards I'm looking up at the [28:26] northern lights and I'm I'm sort of [28:27] towling myself down. And I'm like, "This [28:29] is unbelievable." And this old Icelandic [28:31] fisherman just comes out of nowhere. And [28:33] I just hear his voice. And the first [28:35] thing he says to me is, "They're [28:37] probably deciding if you're going to [28:39] live or die." And I turned around. I [28:40] went, "I'm I'm I'm sorry." And he goes, [28:43] "The Valkyries." I said, "I'm sorry, [28:45] you've lost me. Please explain." And he [28:46] said, "Well, we believe that the [28:47] Northern Lights are the Valkyries, [28:49] Odin's warriors, female warriors, and [28:50] they're riding through the sky, and the [28:52] shimmering is their shields and their [28:54] swords, and they're taking the fallen [28:56] back to Valhalla." And I was like, [28:58] that's deep. [laughter] Okay. Then, like [29:01] I said, starting the swim on the blot [29:03] ceremony, they again and and sorry if [29:05] you know this, but they were talking [29:06] about the Guardians of Iceland. [29:07] >> I don't know anything about I I know [29:09] very little about Iceland. [29:10] >> Oh, this story was amazing. So, they we [29:12] basically started on the West Coast and [29:14] they said, Ross, you're aware that [29:15] you're swimming in the Kingdom of the [29:16] Bull. I said, what do you mean? And they [29:18] said, well, the story goes that [29:19] basically there was a king, a foreign [29:22] king who sent a sorcerer dressed as a [29:24] whale to come and invade Iceland. came [29:27] over to the west coast and there was [29:29] this massive bull and they said right [29:31] you can't attack there and that [29:32] represented strength and power went over [29:34] to the north coast that was the kingdom [29:36] of the eagle they turned up the eagle [29:38] saw them from miles off the sorcerer was [29:40] like you can't attack there went over to [29:42] the east coast over the east coast that [29:43] is the realm of the dragon mainly [29:45] because there's loads of waterfalls and [29:47] dragons like fast flowing water and then [29:50] bang on the south coast the realm of the [29:52] giant the whale the sorcerer came there [29:54] and was like whoa you can't attack there [29:55] either and and then disappeared. So when [29:57] you look on the crest of Iceland, so [30:00] often they have the bull, the eagle, the [30:02] dragon, and the giant. And again, upon [30:04] hearing that, I was like, well, that's [30:06] that's a cool story, but it's a little [30:08] bit deeper. And they're saying really, [30:10] it's about respecting, you know, nature [30:12] and everything. And and I think going [30:14] around Iceland, you know, that was just [30:16] a shot of adrenaline. And and I think [30:18] what was weird and I wanted to quiz you [30:19] on this actually because upon hearing [30:22] stories of this I don't know and please [30:25] correct me if I'm wrong. Is it is it the [30:26] the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex that [30:28] deals with strategy and it's almost the [30:30] story that you're telling yourself? So [30:32] when I'm swimming around I'm like this [30:34] is the kingdom of the bull and I almost [30:36] made it poetic in my head and that [30:38] actually got me through a few swims and [30:40] then even towards the end as well like I [30:42] said about trying to make it back home [30:44] the story of Odin. So you know in [30:47] ancient Norse mythology they believe in [30:48] fate. They believe that you know you're [30:50] you you can't control your destiny and [30:52] the only thing you control is your [30:54] attitude towards it. So Odin basically [30:56] Ragnarok being the the Norse apocalypse [30:59] where the basically the the gods fight [31:01] the giants this huge battle. And Odin [31:04] basically had traded his eye for wisdom. [31:06] So he knew spoiler alert that he was [31:08] going to be eaten by a giant wolf. But [31:10] he just charges into battle anyway. And [31:13] I think what was really interesting upon [31:14] hearing this certainly by the time I [31:17] finished the swim after 114 days I was [31:20] sat there thinking you need to finish [31:21] you need to get back for the birth of [31:23] your son. Uh but equally if the ancient [31:26] Nordic gods are watching this is what [31:28] they would want. Again nature what is it [31:30] there I know of no greater life purpose [31:32] than to perish in attempting the [31:34] impossible. And all of that was going [31:35] through my head. [31:36] >> You asked about the dorsalateral [31:38] prefrontal cortex. So there there is a a [31:41] set of studies that since you have an [31:43] interest in neuroscience and the [31:44] anterior mids singlet cortex that I did [31:46] return to I haven't talked about on the [31:48] on my podcast ever [31:50] >> but um that it's a it's a solid [31:52] literature in in neuroscience and um has [31:55] to do with an experiment called the tube [31:56] test. Do you know about the tube test? [31:58] You might like this. Some years ago [32:01] people were interested in what drives [32:03] persistence and winning in competition. [32:05] And so they developed uh something [32:07] called the tube test and it's done on [32:08] mice. But then we'll talk about the [32:10] human analog. And basically you put two [32:12] male mice into a tube and they want to [32:14] fight. It's just what male mice want to [32:17] do. Female mice will do it too by the [32:19] way. Uh female male pairings will do it [32:21] too, but they tend to do this with [32:23] males. Uh male male pairings. Put them [32:25] in the tube. But these fights are not [32:27] such that the tube is small enough so [32:28] they can't really scratch or bite at [32:30] each other. [32:30] >> Got it? [32:31] >> And one pushes the other one out of the [32:33] territory. You know, space, who gets the [32:35] most space is a is a very primitive but [32:38] important feature of competition among [32:40] animals, dogs, etc., right? You know, [32:43] who gets space. So, you put two mice in [32:45] and one tends to win and one tends to [32:47] lose. And there's some interesting [32:49] statistics that fall out whereby prior [32:51] winning leads to future winning on [32:53] average, right? So winners tend to be [32:55] winners and losers tend to be losers [32:56] over time in a way and this is where it [32:58] gets interesting that's independent of [33:00] testosterone levels independent of [33:04] things like nutritional status I mean at [33:06] the extremes these things fall away like [33:08] one is starved or one is castrated okay [33:11] right um body weight these sorts of [33:13] things so there's something else there [33:15] >> so a bunch of different laboratories [33:16] have worked on this measured brain [33:18] activity in a broadscale way and and [33:20] pinpointed this region of the the [33:21] prefrontal cortex which in mice you [33:23] can't really say is like equivalent to [33:25] our dorsal lateral prefrontal cortex but [33:27] at least has components of it. And then [33:29] they do the following experiment. You [33:32] take a mouse that was consistently a [33:34] winner and you silence this particular [33:37] region of the brain or you quiet its its [33:39] activity. You lessen its activity and it [33:42] becomes the loser. You take the loser [33:44] and you in real time increase the amount [33:47] of activity in this particular brain [33:48] region and now it wins every time. [33:51] Here's what's wild. the amount of [33:53] cortisol, the amount of testosterone, [33:55] the amount like none of that stuff [33:57] speaks to what could really be going on. [33:59] It seems that this top down circuit from [34:01] the prefrontal cortex to a bunch of [34:03] other stuff. These are clearly circuits, [34:05] not just one location in the brain is [34:08] driving persistence to win under any [34:13] realistic condition. [34:14] >> Right? Again, you can't take a fetal [34:16] mouse and have it beat an adult mouse, [34:17] right? But all other things being more [34:20] or less equal, activity in this area [34:23] drives persistence and winning. And [34:26] there are equivalent experiments in [34:29] humans using [34:32] virtual reality and brain scanners and [34:34] this kind of thing. It's hard to do the [34:36] experiment. You're clearly physically [34:38] stronger than I am. I'm reasonably [34:40] strong, but No, you absolutely are. [34:41] Right. So there's no way that you're [34:43] going to stimulate my prefrontal cortex [34:45] and I'm going to beat you in a in a [34:46] deadlift. I just know this. It's it's [34:48] okay. We don't even have to like [34:49] entertain the other possibility. But but [34:51] there's a world where I if we are [34:54] otherwise within, you know, 10 or 20% of [34:56] each other's abilities in something [34:58] [snorts] that whoever has the most [35:00] activity in this brain region wins over [35:04] and over and over again. And the [35:05] converse is true, too. So, I find this [35:07] amazing because the analog in human is [35:09] that this is a brain area that's [35:11] involved in conscious strategy setting. [35:14] >> Conscious strategy setting. And the [35:17] particular strategy could be anger, [35:20] >> could be love, could be you want to get [35:22] home to see your child born, could be [35:26] you're hungry and you want to eat, you [35:28] want others to eat so they can survive. [35:29] You know, I the beauty of the prefrontal [35:32] cortex is that it can learn lots of [35:34] different strategies in lots of [35:36] different contexts. [35:38] >> It's a unique circuit in that uh [35:40] component of the circuitry in that way. [35:41] Oh, when people tell me, "Yeah, I'm in [35:44] mile 200 of the of a race in the desert [35:48] and I want to quit and I just have this [35:50] thought and I push." Clearly, that's a [35:52] prefrontal cortical top down type thing. [35:56] That's a real thing. There's a physical [35:58] substrate to it from mice and it's been [36:01] shown in other species too, but it's [36:02] clearly there in us. But what I love [36:04] about what you said there and also as [36:06] well for those losing then as well there [36:08] was um someone recent was talking about [36:10] Roger Federer and they said if you [36:11] watched his matches and turned the sound [36:15] off and couldn't see the score you [36:16] wouldn't know if you won the point or [36:18] lost the point. He was so stoic about [36:20] it. So do you think it's the same as [36:21] well if you're losing that if you don't [36:23] react to it you'll maybe able to buck [36:25] that trend. Does that make sense? [36:26] >> Yeah. No, it totally makes sense. So, I [36:28] think that the there are several big [36:29] macros today that are going to emerge, [36:32] but one of them that clearly will emerge [36:34] is this notion of energy, [36:36] >> right? The reason I asked about the [36:37] 10-year-old Ross Edgely is I I had a [36:40] sneaking suspicion that he had a lot of [36:42] energy. [36:43] >> You know, some people just have a lot of [36:44] energy, right? Having a lot of energy is [36:47] great. Energy management on a backdrop [36:50] of having a lot of energy, that's where [36:52] things start getting impressive, right? [36:54] Poor energy management on a backdrop of [36:57] a lot of energy is I think what leads to [36:58] the 27 club. people who do incredible [37:01] things and die [37:03] >> whether by virtue of their particular [37:05] activity or by virtue of I heard this in [37:08] this wonderful documentary that everyone [37:10] should see which is um the defiant ones [37:12] which is about Dre and Jimmy Iene and [37:15] development of like beats and the story [37:16] of hiphop and and there was a guy in in [37:19] NWA who we don't hear about much anymore [37:22] who clearly was extremely talented but [37:25] he had a really bad accident and you ask [37:27] and he's talking about how it happened [37:29] and involved called wildness and and you [37:32] ask him uh you know they were like what [37:33] do you think happened and he just goes [37:35] the excesses. [37:37] It was the excesses of all that energy [37:39] pouring in money and drugs and [37:42] >> fast cars and being famous and it and [37:44] and it wasn't well managed in him and [37:48] he's still alive but the excesses. So [37:52] energy management is is clearly a piece [37:55] of the ability to be the 10-year-old you [37:58] and load more and more rocks, but you're [38:01] not burning unnecessary energy. So the [38:04] efficiency piece is, I think, where [38:06] these stories that we tell ourselves, [38:08] like I'm doing this for so and so, [38:10] you're able to like separate out all the [38:12] other possible motivations at least for [38:13] some period of time. Like just being [38:16] motivated is like a disregulated system. [38:19] So motivated to do blank because blank [38:22] that's a well-managed energy system. [38:25] >> So most people would die for your levels [38:27] of raw energy. But in keeping with this [38:30] theme about how you regulate dynamically [38:33] regulate your energy, have there ever [38:34] been moments along any of your conquests [38:37] when you thought that's it, I'm done. [38:41] But you had told somebody don't let me [38:43] quit. You outsourced the management. I'm [38:45] really glad you asked that because it's [38:46] almost the opposite. So, so looking at [38:48] um Tim No central governor theory or [38:50] psychobiological model of fatigue, you [38:52] know, this idea how the brain and the [38:53] body interact and will pull the [38:55] physiological handbreak to stop you from [38:57] going to complete exhaustion. [38:59] Upon hearing this and studying this, [39:02] this was before Loch Ness and also I did [39:04] a swim in Lake Tresamino in Italy. We [39:06] got caught in a freak heatwave. Uh [39:08] temperatures over 40° C, water [39:10] temperature up to 34°. It was bath [39:12] water. It was rabdomiolyis waiting to [39:15] happen. uh 37 hours in approaching 100 [39:18] km exactly the same happened. Body just [39:20] started to shut down. Uh I am just [39:23] swimming. I'm so stubborn. And I think [39:25] what's really strange is looking at that [39:28] psychobiological model of fatigue. I [39:30] know that as soon as my brain that's a [39:33] hypochondric starts pulling the [39:34] physiological handbrake, I just go no no [39:36] no no. I just put my foot down on the [39:38] gas. So I actually with my team we talk [39:42] about um outsourcing common sense. I I [39:44] say look, you know, and I don't and I [39:46] don't say this proudly. It's a [39:47] personality defect. I'm well aware of [39:48] that. But I know I will swim till I put [39:51] myself in hospital. And that's that's a [39:53] bad thing, especially now as a dad. [39:54] [laughter] So I have I outsource that to [39:56] my team and I go, "Okay, guys, if you [39:58] tell me that that you need to pull me [40:01] out and you play that card, I I will [40:04] listen because I can't keep putting [40:06] myself in hospital." And I think that [40:07] that's one thing. It's almost the [40:08] opposite now that um I need to be saved [40:11] from myself. Again, I don't say that [40:13] proudly at all. Uh but I'm just very [40:15] aware now uh from metrics they have with [40:17] my blood work and various things. I'm [40:19] like, look, I can't I can't do that [40:21] again. Not now as a dad. I need to be [40:23] more responsible. [40:24] >> Yeah. And that that's trusting the team [40:26] who are amazing as well because they are [40:28] well aware that what we're trying to [40:30] achieve is so ambitious. So they will [40:32] allow me to sort of play with the [40:35] boundaries of common sense and sports [40:36] science. Um, Jerk Kennedy, great friend [40:38] of mine, one of the greatest ice [40:40] swimmers ever. Uh, so he just [40:43] understands hypothermia, the cold, and [40:45] there's so many times me and him have [40:47] conversations and he's just like, he's [40:49] still good. He's still coherent, but [40:51] there's other times where, you know, I [40:52] wish I'd had Jur there just to go, Ross, [40:54] you're done. [40:56] It's interesting the uh we'll talk a [40:58] little bit about addiction later, but [41:00] you know in um I have some friends [41:02] couple who've been on this podcast [41:03] who've talked openly about the fact that [41:05] they were bad addicts and they needed to [41:07] literally assign somebody the job of [41:10] don't let them talk their way out of a [41:13] you know an isolation or don't let them [41:15] talk their way back to their phone or [41:16] don't let them talk their way back to a [41:17] casino and this kind of thing and um [41:20] with huge cash rewards if the person [41:23] doesn't allow them to do it. That's [41:24] pretty much you have to create incentive [41:26] on the other side too, right? Because um [41:28] some of these folks are really [41:29] persuasive [41:31] and and it's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. [41:32] [laughter] Exactly. So yeah, I mean we [41:35] can be honest about who we're talking [41:36] about here because he's talked about it [41:37] openly. David Cho was on this podcast [41:38] some years ago. Extremely talented [41:40] artist, amazing human being. Blessed to [41:42] call him a friend and he's had a [41:44] gambling addiction many times over in [41:45] his in his life. Certain fortunately [41:48] he's he's uh not in it now and hopefully [41:52] never will be again. But there were [41:53] times when he had to offer his team [41:56] tremendous amounts of money to not let [41:59] him convince them to let him out of a [42:02] like an an isolation cabin for a couple [42:04] months while he was, you know, sobering [42:06] up or give him his phone in which time [42:08] he became viciously addicted to playing [42:10] Angry Birds 23 hours a day. [42:12] >> Good game. [42:13] >> Yeah, exactly. [laughter] [42:14] Or Pokemon or whatever, you know. So [42:17] what you describe because it's a elected [42:20] um endeavor and because uh provided you [42:23] survive and make it home to your your [42:25] girlfriend and uh child it's all good [42:29] right but it has a component of [42:31] addiction right I mean it's like if you [42:33] didn't if you don't add the rocks if you [42:35] don't have the next swim if you you know [42:37] so how do you gauge what's too much I [42:41] mean every [42:43] high achiever has to answer at some [42:47] point the question, how much money, how [42:49] many miles, how much fame, how how many [42:54] blanks before I'm satisfied. [42:58] >> And the answer is clearly not concrete. [43:02] It's it's like a dynamic thing. [43:04] >> 100%. [43:04] >> So, like, how close to dying do you have [43:06] to get before you're like, you know [43:07] what, I'm going to chill and paint or [43:09] something? is such a good question [43:11] because I'm I'm literally as of only the [43:13] last year, so my son's now one year old [43:15] and so he's really kind of forced me to [43:18] ask those questions. Now when I'm [43:19] proposed swims, the 21-year-old self, if [43:22] somebody said, "Oh, you know, go do swim [43:24] through a volcano down in Antarctica, [43:26] I'll be like, "Yeah, hold my beard." [43:28] Done. Whereas now, I've I've got to ask [43:30] myself, you know, is is this worth it? [43:33] Is it enough? Is it worth doing? Um I [43:35] don't know. The only thing I know is [43:37] with um you know Victor Frankle talking [43:38] about you know the meaning of life is to [43:39] give life meaning. Uh Jordan Peterson [43:41] saying the purpose of life is to pick up [43:44] the heaviest load and carry it. All of [43:45] those things resonated so much with me [43:48] that I I I do need purpose. And Victor [43:51] Frankle says that over fame, money, just [43:54] a human needs to wake up. What is your [43:56] reason for getting up in the morning? [43:57] And when I don't have a swim or [44:00] something to train for, my girlfriend [44:01] just says I'm just like a caged animal. [44:04] She sees me at home and so so when [44:06] people I mean she's amazing and when I [44:09] left for Iceland she's you know pregnant [44:12] quite heavily pregnant waving me off and [44:13] they said how are you letting him do [44:15] this and she goes a he would be terrible [44:17] if he was still at home so I know he's [44:20] happiest when he's out there even [44:21] swimming around Great Britain as well so [44:23] many people back on land when Hester [44:25] would come and see me and I was a [44:27] hundred days in I look like a sea yeti [44:29] werewolf you know my tongue was falling [44:31] off I was chafing all over and people [44:33] would say how's he doing? I've seen the [44:35] wounds. I've seen his neck. And Ha would [44:37] just always reply, "I've never seen him [44:39] so happy. Like, he's having the best [44:41] time." And again, I don't say that [44:43] necessarily in a proud way, but I just [44:45] know I just need purpose. Whatever it [44:47] is, give me something to train for. [44:49] >> And she met you when you were already [44:51] like this. Yeah. [44:52] >> And doing this, that's important. It [44:54] >> It's so You didn't like You didn't like [44:56] spring this on her 3 years into a [44:58] relationship? [44:59] >> No, no, no, no, no. And she's [45:00] incredible. Like the Yukon swim for [45:02] instance. there. So that was 510 km [45:04] non-stop, 56 hours, although the entire [45:06] expedition was about 70 hours. So the [45:08] entire team, including myself, didn't [45:10] sleep for 70 hours cuz we had to [45:12] actually get the boat to the starting [45:13] point. And I just remember like just [45:16] swimming and there's just the silhouette [45:18] of my girlfriend and every 20 minutes [45:20] she throws me a banana and I'm just [45:22] like, "Thanks, babe." And she's just [45:23] like, "No problem." [45:24] >> [laughter] [45:25] >> And I think it was that, you know, that [45:27] that I feel so fortunate, you know, just [45:30] swimming with gratitude, realizing that [45:32] I'm just like, "Oh, thanks for accepting [45:34] me. I know I'm a feral weird boyfriend." [45:36] So, I really appreciate this. [45:37] >> You seem as I would describe and [45:39] sometimes describe myself um you know, [45:41] only partially domesticated. So, [45:44] >> absolutely. [laughter] [45:45] That is so when I turned up as well, I [45:47] mean, I was still I was hairy from [45:49] Iceland. I had like jellyfish tacles. I [45:51] was like just literally chafing wounds. [45:53] And I arrived at the hospital. So I made [45:54] it back by 3 days for the birth of my [45:56] son. So as I arrived into the hospital, [45:58] nurses and everyone was like, "Oh my [45:59] god, who is that?" And Ha was like, "Oh, [46:01] no, no, no." Unfortunately, that is the [46:02] father of my child. [laughter] He's he's [46:05] feral, but he's safe. [46:07] >> Is she a worrier by nature? [46:09] >> Yes. But she said since, you know, we've [46:12] been together 13 years and she says now [46:14] she just has to let go. And um I think [46:17] it's really interesting because she [46:19] >> now her barometer of of worrying is [46:23] completely changed uh because when you [46:25] have I mean the Yukon was a great [46:27] example and I I wanted to actually this [46:28] is great cuz I wanted to chat to you [46:29] about this anyway but just uh your [46:31] perceptions of danger. So there was so [46:33] many times on the swim where you know [46:35] black bears were fine you know in the [46:36] Yukon in Canada they're a bit skittish [46:38] and they look at you and I can almost [46:39] feel my amydala or circuitry whatever it [46:41] was was looking and going that's okay. [46:44] When the brown bears appeared on the [46:46] side, they are just looking. They are [46:48] not skittish. They're just like looking [46:49] at you going, "You're not a salmon, but [46:52] you're not a bear. I wonder what you [46:53] taste like." And I am just swimming. I [46:56] turned to the guys in the Yukon. And [46:57] they were amazing, the sport team. I [46:59] said, "Guys, am I am I okay here? Cuz [47:01] that that brown bear is is looking at me [47:03] like I'm a dessert." And they pulled out [47:06] Andrew. It wasn't even a gun. It was a [47:08] cannon. And they went, "Ross, if it gets [47:10] too close, it'll end up in my freezer." [47:12] And I was like, "Right, that's the [47:13] response I wanted. Great. Carried on [47:15] swimming. [47:16] >> Yeah. [47:16] >> But but you experienced that as well [47:18] with shark diving. [47:19] >> Yeah. [47:20] >> As well. That's changed that rewired [47:22] you. Is it fair to say? [47:23] >> Yeah. I I don't want to shift this to a [47:24] story of any of my um adventures and and [47:27] they're in no no way, shape or form as [47:30] bold and and as enduring as as yours. [47:33] So, but yeah, a few years back for my [47:35] lab, we um decided to record these great [47:37] white sharks in the wild, bring it to [47:38] the VR lab. And a friend of mine, a a [47:41] very accomplished photographer, [47:43] videographer, Michael Mueller, um [47:45] convinced me uh to get dive certified [47:48] and exit the cage and swim towards the [47:51] sharks. And there there's a skill to [47:52] doing this. It's not like, you know, [47:54] you're not just cowboying it, but but [47:56] you know, I had an air failure not out [47:59] of the cage on the hookah line the day [48:01] before. And there's a whole story there. [48:03] So, um, 2017 marked the end of the [48:07] deliberate end of me taking risks with [48:09] my physical, uh, life. Um, but what I [48:13] learned there and what I've learned um [48:15] from people like Cam Haynes and from [48:18] spending time in Australia and from [48:20] people who live in Montana like Andy [48:23] Stumpf is that, you know, our our [48:26] perception of what's dangerous in the [48:27] wild is often a little bit cryptic and [48:30] we can easily be misled like, oh, that [48:32] little spider looks friendly and that's [48:34] the deadly one or that bear looks very [48:36] large and looming, but it turns out [48:38] that's not the one that will actively [48:40] hunt you. it's actually the somewhat [48:41] smaller one that is uh just likes to [48:44] hunt humans, you know, this kind of [48:46] thing. And so the key takeaway being [48:48] whether it's jellyfish, spiders, snakes, [48:52] uh birds, or in some cases people for [48:56] that matter, locals have the key [49:00] knowledge and and our ideas about what's [49:02] dangerous or not um are often wrong. So [49:05] best to air on it's all dangerous. [49:07] >> 100%. [49:08] >> Right. And and I love what you said [49:09] there as well because again diving with [49:12] great whites and and also tiger sharks [49:13] myself they they have um the ampulive [49:15] Laurenini where they pick up electrical [49:17] impulses and I think exactly to your [49:19] point what was so strange is the first [49:20] time I dived with them I'm always [49:22] comfortable in the water but it was so [49:24] strange how like the tigers and the [49:26] great whites knew that I was the weakest [49:29] diver and whether that was like I was [49:31] flinching I acted like prey whether my [49:33] heartbeat or whether I was breathing it [49:36] knew and it was so interesting on the [49:38] the audio, they were like, "Ross, [49:39] control your breathing. Ross, slow your [49:41] heart rate." And I was like, "How does [49:42] it know?" And sure enough, they just all [49:45] just came straight for me. And they were [49:46] like, "Ross, I'm not saying square up to [49:48] it, but I'm not saying flinch and back [49:51] away as well." So, as it came towards [49:53] me, there was that I was where can I [49:55] help you? You know, and it sort of was [49:57] like, it looked at me and there was a [49:58] real [49:59] >> form of communication that is obviously [50:01] non-verbal and it sort of looked and was [50:02] like, "All right, okay. You know what [50:04] you're doing. I I'll leave you alone." [50:05] You know, and it was it was so strange. [50:07] Exactly the same with the bears in the [50:10] Yukon that they were looking and if [50:13] there was a weakness that is the laws of [50:15] the jungle, you know, I would have been [50:17] charged. [50:17] >> Yeah. I mean, all animals have their own [50:20] sophisticated forms of intelligence. [50:22] What you learn with the great whites [50:23] before you go down there is they're [50:25] going to come looming in slowly. [50:28] >> There a lot of tuna out there. There a [50:29] lot of seals and and other things for [50:31] them to eat. So, they're not actively [50:32] trying to hunt you. But if you run swim [50:35] away from them, they perceive you as [50:37] prey. They're making a binary decision, [50:38] right? And this is actually an important [50:40] thing in terms of brain circuitry. [50:41] Again, I had a student uh who then went [50:43] off and did a postto. She now has her [50:45] own laboratory in Switzerland. Uh [50:46] Lindsay Cle who published some papers on [50:48] um threat assessment and response. How [50:52] um fear can turn to pausing can turn to [50:55] aggression is very very interesting [50:56] work. Uh and she really deserves the [50:58] credit. We can put a link to those [51:00] papers. But there are these areas of the [51:01] midline phalamus like basically square [51:03] in the middle of the brain that [51:05] basically make the decision among three [51:08] choices. You can go forward, you can [51:10] stay in the same place or you can [51:11] retreat. [51:13] >> And predators are also assessing are [51:15] they moving forward toward me? Are they [51:17] staying still or are they retreating? [51:19] You know the brain is very of all [51:21] species is sophisticated in air quotes [51:23] but it has to make these decisions often [51:25] with limited amounts of information. So [51:26] these are more like switches than a [51:28] continuum. M [51:29] >> and Lindsay has identified a number of [51:32] those switches uh in the brain, she and [51:33] others. And so the bears are probably [51:36] paying attention to, you know, is he [51:39] moving forward toward me or something [51:41] else? Is he staying still or is he [51:42] retreating from me? They have to know if [51:44] it has something to do with them. And [51:45] you have to do the same. You encounter a [51:47] mountain lion along a trail. [51:49] >> People will say, "Well, don't run. Get [51:51] large." Okay? But at some point, if it [51:52] gets close enough, you've got to make a [51:54] decision. Are you going to fight it or [51:55] are you going to run? Right? Or you [51:56] could lay and play dead. So these are [51:59] these are life lifealtering decisions so [52:03] to speak and the computations are not [52:06] super sophisticated and this is no doubt [52:07] relevant to everything we've been [52:08] talking about whether it's anterior [52:10] midsulate cortex or prefrontal cortex is [52:12] that brain areas will ramp up their [52:14] activity and cross thresholds after [52:16] which circuits are set in motion. [52:19] >> Right? So there's this kind of buildup. [52:20] There's there's names that don't matter [52:22] right now for for this, but there's this [52:23] kind of like buildup of chatter that [52:25] exceeds a threshold and then in a [52:26] certain action is taken or withheld. And [52:29] so the thoughts about I just said I [52:32] would, so I'm going to do it. I want to [52:34] get back and see my kid being born. [52:37] Gosh, I would feel such shame if I [52:39] didn't do this. These are different [52:41] paths into the same sets of do I go [52:43] forward, do I stop, or do I ret or do I [52:47] quit? retreating in this case would be [52:48] quitting. And so there's not it's [52:51] sometimes fun to break things that are [52:52] somewhat sophisticated, the [52:54] psychological and the neurobiological [52:55] into ultimately you got three choices. [52:58] You can go forward in life or at any [53:00] moment you can stop or you can retreat [53:03] or quit as a case may be and sometimes [53:05] that's the lifesaving decision [53:07] >> 100%. [53:09] I'd like to take a quick break and [53:10] acknowledge our sponsor AG1. I'm excited [53:13] to share that AG1 has just launched [53:15] their newest formulation, AG1 Pro. 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[53:57] It's a great product and it's now made [53:59] even better with the new AG1 Pro [54:01] formula. If you would like to try AG1 [54:03] Pro, you can go to [54:05] drinkaga1.com/huberman [54:07] to get a special offer. AG1 is giving [54:09] away a free bottle of Omega-3 co-enzyme [54:12] Q10 with your first subscription. Again, [54:14] go to drinka1.com/huberman [54:17] to get a free bottle of omega-3 [54:19] co-enzyme Q10 with your first AG1 [54:21] subscription. [54:23] Let's get back on the spokes for a [54:25] moment and then we've done three spokes [54:26] already, [54:26] >> and then we'll plow forward. Yeah. So, I [54:28] said I would. [54:29] >> Mhm. [54:29] >> Um, I don't want to disappoint. [54:31] >> Yep. [54:32] >> And I've got something I really want to [54:33] be there for. So, that's sort of what we [54:35] touched on so far. [54:37] >> How about I'm going to do this. I'm [54:39] going to continue to do this because you [54:42] said I couldn't. Because they thought I [54:44] couldn't. [laughter] [54:45] >> You know, I find this one to be very [54:47] prominent in the online space. But it's [54:52] also one that as people get better and [54:54] better and achieve more and more, they [54:56] hear less and less. [54:58] So it's, you know, this is the this is [55:01] the great, you know, gift to the [55:03] underdog, right? You have you have fuel. [55:07] They're handing you fuel. [55:09] >> But when you win, they're no longer [55:11] you've obviously done it. Then it turns [55:13] to, well, they had all the right [55:15] resources or But what how about this? [55:17] Has anyone ever said to you, "There's [55:19] just no way." And that sparked something [55:21] in you like now it absolutely [55:24] they just handed you a blank check [55:26] [laughter] [55:27] is the best way to put it. Exactly that. [55:29] And and I I love what you said there [55:31] because throughout my career that's [55:33] become less and less useful because less [55:36] people doubt me. And I'm almost like, [55:37] "Oh." So when the the swim around Great [55:38] Britain was probably the biggest one and [55:40] I love that because it went on YouTube, [55:42] uh we were doing weekly vlogs. the very [55:44] first vlog that we put out there, the [55:46] comments and I read through all of them [55:48] uh cuz I was so excited. I was like, [55:49] "Oh, this is going to be brilliant." [55:51] Comments were just like, "He's far too [55:52] big to be a swimmer. I think he's going [55:54] to give up after 100 km. He's not going [55:56] to even make it on the South Coast." All [55:57] of them. And I read them. What's what's [55:59] actually interesting is I think it was [56:01] like 5 years ago, I ended up going back [56:03] and somebody had commented on all of [56:05] these comments and gone, "Well, this [56:06] didn't age very well, did it?" And [56:08] [laughter] I was like, "That made me [56:09] feel so good." But what's so interesting [56:11] is once we swam around Great Britain, [56:14] people stopped doubting me. And so I [56:16] missed that. [laughter] When we said we [56:17] were going to swim around Iceland, [56:18] everyone was like, "I think he can do it [56:20] this time." And I'm like, "Where are the [56:21] where are the guys who were trolling me? [56:24] I need them back." But yeah. Yeah. [56:26] Certainly around Great Britain 100%. [56:29] Going back to the spokes, that was a big [56:30] one. So are you moving dynamically [56:32] between these things because one sort of [56:35] loses its potency to keep keep you [56:38] going? That is exactly the word I use as [56:40] well. I anything that stimulates you. [56:43] It's almost like going through your head [56:44] like when you're changing the TV channel [56:46] and sometimes something can work and it [56:48] becomes so potent and you're swimming [56:50] and I'm swimming cuz people said I [56:51] couldn't. This is amazing. But then the [56:53] very next day you go I'm going to tap [56:54] into that again. You go, well maybe [56:56] maybe they've got a point. [laughter] [56:58] Do do I need to finish this? You need [57:00] something else. And I think it's just [57:02] like I always say your reasons to [57:04] continue need to be bigger than your [57:05] reasons to stop. And I love this [57:07] conversation because we're identifying [57:09] those different categories, those [57:11] different spokes. Um, and it's just [57:14] knowing that what might work one day [57:16] might not work the other, you know, and [57:18] then and then sometimes, for instance, [57:19] one of the most potent was um to my [57:21] girlfriend, she ended up sending me a [57:23] picture of the scan, you know, and it [57:25] was one of the first scans that I ever [57:26] saw of my son that I just woke up 2:00 [57:29] in the morning, cracked ice off my wets [57:31] suit, dived in, and I was like, "Oh, [57:33] we're getting this done." So, it was [57:35] different. and and knowing knowing which [57:38] one to go. And I think as a coach as [57:39] well, sometimes some of my friends who [57:41] are amazing, like I said, Jer Kennedy, [57:42] Chris Morgan, Olympic swimming coach as [57:44] well, they'll know which buttons to push [57:48] of mine in the right moments. I think [57:50] all great coaches do that and then [57:52] sometimes I have to do it myself as [57:54] well. [57:55] >> So, you've got a um FU. I'm going to do [57:58] this. [57:58] >> Yep. [57:59] >> FU. You said I couldn't. [58:00] >> Yep. [58:00] >> I'm going to do it. Let's talk about the [58:02] other one that Doggins talks about [58:05] sometimes, but even he talks about a [58:09] little bit differently than f me. [58:12] >> Like f me, I'm going to do this. Like, [58:15] so what I'm doing here is going to the [58:17] polar opposite. F you is like you don't [58:19] think I can do this, watch [58:21] >> like I'll die trying. But then at some [58:23] point if that potency runs down, [58:25] wouldn't it be wonderful to run to our [58:27] like move to our love for something as [58:28] motivation? Sometimes [58:31] f me like I am weak for even considering [58:35] stopping. F me for even like so it's not [58:39] a pleasant thought but [58:41] >> does it have potency for you? Do you is [58:43] that a source of [58:45] >> continual pushing on the gas pedal? [58:47] >> I think it is. And to take that some [58:49] probably slightly further but slightly [58:51] more specific. I don't know if it is [58:52] this but but sometimes there'll even be [58:55] a part of my body that is failing. So, [58:57] it's not necessarily [ __ ] me. It'll be [59:00] like [ __ ] you right shoulder. And I [59:02] think so it's that that I'll get angry [59:04] at my body failing me and I'm like no no [59:07] no no no no. I'm taking you for a swim [59:09] across the Arctic Circle. You're not [59:10] stopping on me now. So So it's like not [59:12] just me, but there will be parts of me [59:14] that I get really angry at if it's [59:16] failing me. Is that the same, do you [59:18] think? [59:18] >> Yeah. Well, no. And and you teed up [59:20] beautifully what I was going to get to, [59:22] which it it's going to sit in a kind of [59:24] uncomfortable place for some people [59:26] listening. I just want to give that [59:27] warning, but it's reality cuz what [59:30] you're talking about when you see a scan [59:33] uh an ultrasound of your unborn son and [59:35] you want to meet the newborn son that is [59:39] him. [59:40] >> Uh you're talking about somebody that's [59:44] of you, half of you. Let's be fair, your [59:46] wife did significantly more of the work. [59:48] She just dated him, but you know, but [59:50] but it's of the two of you and it's of [59:52] you, right? I could imagine that if you [59:55] saw a picture of uh your a family [59:58] member's child that you told you would [60:00] do this also, but at some point if I [60:02] just show you a picture of a baby and I [60:04] go do it for this baby, I imagine it's [60:06] not going to do a whole lot. [60:08] >> Okay? Unless there's some other story [60:10] attached to that about you're raising [60:11] charity for that child, etc., etc., [60:13] right? Right. So this gets to a very [60:15] important and I don't think dark but an [60:18] important to acknowledge aspect of our [60:19] wiring which is one of the most [60:21] fundamental aspects of our brain and our [60:24] biology is we have to know the [60:26] difference between us and not us [60:29] >> and us it starts with us as the [60:32] individual then it extends to our kin. [60:35] It extends to who we decide. You know, [60:37] you can adopt, you can have friends, you [60:39] can have a community, but it's the the [60:42] ability to tap into motivation for us [60:44] versus not us, even in the absence of [60:48] competition, is extremely powerful. And [60:51] it's rooted in the hypothalamus, like [60:52] what this primitive brain structure that [60:54] is essentially a set of switches. [60:58] There's not a lot of thinking down [60:59] there. It's it's forward, stop, or [61:01] retreat. [61:02] >> Okay? It's mate or don't mate. It's [61:05] fight or don't fight. It's quit or okay. [61:07] And and you got eat or don't eat, right? [61:09] You don't really have a lot of options [61:10] to kind of eat, right? So, so this is [61:14] most visible, I think, in a we'll put [61:17] put a link to this. There's a beautiful [61:19] illustration of this that's very brutal, [61:22] which is a nature documentary where [61:23] there's a lion being attacked by a pack [61:26] of hyenas. This is real. And they're [61:28] trying to tear its testicles off. They [61:30] have a an awareness that if they tear [61:32] off its testicles, it's unlikely to mate [61:34] in the future and potentially limit the [61:37] lion population. And they're not doing [61:38] the math into the future. They've just [61:39] learned this from each other or it's [61:41] hardwired. Okay. Um many animals do [61:44] this, right? And there's another lion [61:46] who comes along and enters the fight to [61:50] protect its [61:52] its other lion, right? To Yeah. But the [61:54] amazing thing is and and they ward off [61:56] these hyenas and it's brutal and they're [61:57] getting shredded up and they protect [61:59] their testicles as they're doing it. [62:01] >> But the amazing thing is just prior to [62:02] this scene, those two lions were [62:04] fighting. They were trying to kill each [62:06] other and rip off each other's [62:08] testicles. So there's a switch in the [62:10] brain from me just guarding the self to [62:14] us versus them. And and it's very [62:17] dynamic. You can expand this out. Humans [62:19] have this ability to say, you know, my [62:21] country, my team, my whatever, you know, [62:25] um, and it can transcend all sorts of [62:27] boundaries and you can make it purely [62:29] cognitive. But when you get down to the [62:31] real like hardwired stuff, it's your [62:34] DNA. [62:35] >> It's your child or it's a child that you [62:37] chose to adopt and raise and so [62:39] therefore it's your kid and you would [62:42] die before you would quit. [62:44] >> [snorts] [62:44] >> And so the strength of motivation I [62:46] would argue is not we have this mental [62:49] model of these spokes on balance on a [62:51] balance. But the the interesting thing [62:54] about your example of your shoulder is [62:57] you're like uh-uh you're not going to [62:59] quit on me. In fact, you're not really [63:01] of me right now, but you're enough of me [63:03] that I'm going to keep you. You're not [63:04] going to saw off your shoulder. You're [63:05] like you're kind of like f you. I'm [63:08] going and you're coming with me. And [63:10] your language, I'm not capturing it [63:11] exactly right. actually encapsulates [63:14] this this idea that the dynamic and it [63:17] is dynamic concept of me versus us [63:20] versus them is kind of what allows us to [63:23] push through anything whether it's a PhD [63:25] thesis in neuroscience which is [63:27] >> not as you describe but is it's long in [63:29] a different way it lasts years it's [63:31] uncertain [63:32] >> probably won't kill you as long as you [63:34] have good lab technique but it can it [63:36] you know it can do its damage [63:38] psychologically and it's it's a pick any [63:40] effort medical school parenting Whatever [63:42] it is, the us not versus them, but us [63:45] with a little bit of not us. [63:48] >> That is the stuff that drove human [63:50] evolution, exploration, technology [63:52] development. [63:53] >> And this is true for men and for women. [63:55] I don't want to cast this in a purely Y [63:56] chromosome framework. So anyway, those [63:59] are some thoughts and reflections. And I [64:00] think your description of your shoulder [64:02] is like, "Fuck you. You're coming with [64:05] me." is pretty telling [64:06] >> for sure. I, you know, I I love what you [64:09] said there as well. Do do you find it's [64:12] also the other way that the reason I [64:13] bring that up is you know I lost my dad [64:16] four years ago and then the Iceland swim [64:18] existed in this strange world of you [64:20] know it wasn't just my dad he was my [64:21] mentor he was my coach and then so I've [64:24] lost my dad and then I'm becoming a dad [64:25] myself and on the Iceland swim as well [64:28] as well as trying to get back for the [64:29] birth of my son I I said when I when I [64:32] wrote my book about Iceland I said I [64:34] want this to be almost a tribute to [64:36] everything that my dad taught me and a [64:38] letter to my future son and certainly [64:41] swimming as well. Not to get too deep or [64:43] spiritual or religious, but I was in my [64:45] head this got me through so many dark [64:47] times. I just imagine that dad was [64:49] sitting up there. He was a tennis coach, [64:50] so he's playing tennis on the tennis [64:52] court in the sky up in heaven and he's [64:54] looking down and and then me it was just [64:56] I would get goosebumps. It would invoke [64:58] something visceral inside of me, [65:00] primitive that I would imagine my dad up [65:02] in heaven just looking down and just to [65:04] everyone else up there just go and be [65:05] like, "Yeah, that that that one right [65:07] there swimming around Iceland, that [65:09] one's mine." Yeah. And that just Oh, I [65:12] just even now I could just swim for [65:14] another 100 miles thinking of that. So [65:16] that was something I I used as well. So [65:18] would you say with that exact Yeah, [65:20] exactly. [65:21] >> I mean for those just listening I am [65:22] nodding with big nods. I mean, I've [65:24] heard you describe on uh other podcasts, [65:27] you know, you're you're running, [65:29] running, running. You're exhausted, [65:30] exhausted. You see your son at the [65:32] finish line, no caffeine, no injection [65:36] of saline, and all of a sudden you've [65:38] got a jetpack on. [65:41] >> Another cute baby at the finish line. [65:43] Probably not the same effect. [laughter] [65:46] >> Probably not the same effect. But what [65:47] you're talking about here is the ability [65:49] for humans to pull on this [65:50] transgenerational understanding of of us [65:54] is so it's like the mei piece is [65:56] important, but the us that really is an [65:59] an affiliative us is again it's it's the [66:04] the most potent fuel in the universe. [66:08] Now the the sad side of this and I it [66:10] sounds like you had a good uh [66:11] relationship to your father on balance. [66:13] you you light up when you when you when [66:16] you talk about him. You know, the the [66:18] the sad thing and actually I think [66:20] there's been some remedy in the um [66:22] online sphere is that a lot of people [66:25] have a very complicated relationship [66:28] with their parents and or even a [66:31] horrible relationship with one or both [66:33] of their parents. And under those [66:35] conditions, they have to look elsewhere [66:37] to not just be a lone wolf. It's [66:40] important to be able to be a lone wolf, [66:42] but it doesn't take you the full [66:44] distance. And I know there are a number [66:45] of sayings about this, like you know, [66:47] and people will be like, there's no eye [66:48] in team and these kinds of things. Yeah, [66:51] that's and those phrases are important, [66:52] but what we're talking about here is [66:54] very primitive circuitry. Like if you [66:56] think about the driving force of [66:57] evolution, right? It's like every [67:00] species is trying to make more of itself [67:01] and protect its young. In particular, [67:03] it's young, [67:05] >> you're young, [67:06] >> and once that's okay, then you can focus [67:07] on other things. So yeah, this is the [67:10] this is the deep reality of the primate [67:14] brain of which of which we are. Perhaps [67:16] you a little bit more than the rest. I'm [67:18] just kid. I'm just kidding, man. [67:19] [laughter] You earned that joke by being [67:20] so damn fit [67:22] >> in the endurance and strength stuff. So [67:24] I can I can jab a tiny bit. But there's [67:26] another piece of this, right? Which is [67:28] if people don't have that [67:31] transgenerational [67:32] um pride and excitement and love to pull [67:35] on, they have to look elsewhere. And you [67:38] know, for a long while I've thought [67:40] that, you know, Jaco Willink has kind of [67:42] been the football coach to a lot of guys [67:44] that didn't play football. [67:46] >> Great, right? [67:47] >> The military commander. I mean, dude is, [67:49] first of all, he's a good friend of mine [67:50] and he's every bit as kind and driven [67:52] and cool as he comes across, even more [67:54] so in person. Um, but he does not [67:57] disappoint. But not everyone was in the [67:59] military or played football. And yet [68:01] he's there for you, encouraging you to [68:03] be at your best through discipline and [68:05] other things. and and there are other [68:07] examples and Gogggins and you and and [68:09] and on and on and I think that it's [68:12] really helped a generation of of men and [68:15] women [68:16] >> uh to like believe in themselves and [68:19] have an affiliative sense of drive, [68:22] >> not just be a lone wolf [68:24] >> and and for that I think we we owe a [68:26] debt of gratitude to to all those folks. [68:28] Andy Stump, DJ Ship, there are too many [68:29] names to to rattle off and I forgive me [68:31] because I'm missing a bunch of them. Cam [68:33] Haynes and Rich Roll, you know, and on [68:36] and on. But I really think that [68:40] deep in our brains below our our [68:42] unconscious, [68:43] it's like we're trying to check off [68:45] these boxes of be okay. [68:48] Once we're okay, who close to us or that [68:50] we consider close to us, can we bring [68:52] along? In your case, it was your [68:53] shoulder and then and then layer up from [68:56] there. Yeah. So these days you're [68:59] sitting uh at a pretty high apex of what [69:04] you do and Josh Whiteskin who has been [69:07] on this podcast, Brazilian jiu-jitsu [69:09] guy, you know, incredible chess champion [69:12] at performance coach for the Boston [69:13] Celtics, he said, you know, when they're [69:15] trying to become the champion, you're [69:16] trying to become the champion, but when [69:18] you're a champion, you're trying to [69:19] defend the championship. And the mindset [69:22] is completely different. So, [69:26] where are you at right now? What what's [69:28] like the next peak or do you feel like [69:30] you're defending something or do you [69:32] feel like you're looking for the next [69:33] big challenge that will raise you up? [69:36] What's the next rock to put in your [69:37] backpack? I I'm searching for it at the [69:40] moment and it's just it's got to tick a [69:42] a few different boxes. I I think cuz it [69:45] it does feel like that. I think my my [69:48] 21-year-old self, like I said, Mazo's [69:50] hierarchy, I just needed feelings of [69:51] accomplishment, prestige. Even if [69:53] someone said, "You're not going to earn [69:54] any money from this, Ross." At 21, I'd [69:56] just go, "Yeah, yeah, but I get the [69:58] record, right?" And they go, "Yeah." I'm [69:59] like, "Well, that's enough. That's all I [70:00] need." I actually lost money. Looking [70:02] back, really irresponsible. I I didn't [70:05] have a house and I had, you know, enough [70:07] money to put down for a deposit on a [70:09] house. And the opportunity to to swim [70:12] around Great Britain came up, but the [70:13] the boat crew were like, "Look, we need [70:15] a deposit on the boat. We need the crew [70:17] and everything." And I remember I turned [70:18] to Ha. I mean, again, this is how lucky [70:20] I am. And I said, "Look, I should [70:21] probably do the responsible thing, [70:23] right? Uh, I'm 32 years old. Get a [70:25] house, get a mortgage. That would be the [70:27] smart thing to do, or do I take that [70:29] money, put it on a boat and a crew, and [70:31] I try and swim around, go Britain?" And [70:33] she looked at me and she just sort of [70:34] went, "Ah, I hate to say it, but you [70:36] know, you might be old, 80 years old [70:38] with loads of money and everything. You [70:40] can buy loads of houses, but you're not [70:42] going to be 31, 32 with the ability to [70:44] swim around Great Britain. So, I think [70:45] you need to put it on the boat." That [70:47] was my girlfriend. I was just like, [70:49] "Thank you. I think you're right. So, we [70:50] did. It paid off, but I lost money [70:53] swimming around Go Britain. Whereas now, [70:55] not to sound like a commercial [70:56] mercenary, but I'm like, you want me to [70:58] do a swim, I need to be paid. I can't [71:00] just keep doing this, otherwise it's a [71:01] very expensive hobby. And I think now it [71:04] is so lucky that I have got to a point [71:05] where you could call it a career in [71:07] inverted commas. And I think that's [71:08] interesting as well because I think [71:10] sometimes [71:11] the idea of talking about money with [71:14] these sorts of events, it's almost it's [71:15] a bit, you know, of a dirty word. [71:17] Whereas I I always like um you know your [71:19] guy that the Japanese concept saying you [71:22] know your guy is your reason for being [71:23] why did you get up in the morning made [71:25] up of four things what you love what [71:26] you're good at what the world needs and [71:29] what you can be paid for but it needs to [71:31] be all four and I think so often people [71:34] will do these and they forget that what [71:35] you can be paid for and you almost [71:37] become um like a martyr as well you know [71:40] and you're not making any money whereas [71:42] with me I'm really really fortunate so [71:44] to answer your question as well just to [71:45] be so so honest you if someone came [71:47] along went do this swim and here's a [71:49] check I'm like right going back to the [71:51] us then I'm like amazing that helps my [71:55] my son and any future kids that we want [71:57] to have as well so money [71:59] >> it's it sounds bad [laughter] but that's [72:01] become a thing as well [72:02] >> yeah I mean I don't think money is a [72:03] dirty word especially not in the context [72:05] that you're talking about earned [72:06] honestly through incredible endeavors [72:08] and it to serve your family and um [72:11] >> having lived in Los Angeles for a few [72:12] years now it's an interesting place you [72:15] know there are a lot of success stories [72:16] here there a lot of broken dreams here [72:18] too. And it's not uncommon to encounter [72:20] somebody who's still so driven to make [72:23] it and has not made it that they've [72:25] essentially cashed in everything else. [72:27] And you know, I have tremendous respect [72:29] for the endurance community and also for [72:30] the strength training community, but one [72:32] of the saddest things I ever ever saw [72:37] was I love this movie about Westside [72:40] Barbell, but there's this one scene [72:41] where a guy who was doing the uh who was [72:44] training with with Louiesie and those [72:45] guys talks about missing something of [72:49] like a his son's event because it was [72:51] bench press night and [72:55] the regret that he still lives lives [72:57] with. [72:58] I don't know if his son I can't remember [73:00] if his son passed or if they're out of [73:02] touch. I don't know. But in any case, he [73:04] was so driven by this particular goal [73:06] that he missed some critical moment in [73:09] his child's life and it still haunts [73:11] him. [73:12] >> And no one wants to be that guy or gal. [73:16] >> Nobody wants to be that. [73:18] >> And nobody wants to be that. And I think [73:20] that, you know, it money is a tool to, [73:25] you know, to allow, if I may, your son [73:27] to be able to pursue what he finds most [73:29] enriching. Something tells me he may be [73:32] swimming with you at some point, but [73:33] you'd hate for him to h feel the [73:35] pressure. [73:35] >> Yeah. [73:36] >> My dad's a scientist and I loved science [73:39] as a kid and then when we had some [73:40] friction, I resisted becoming a [73:42] scientist. And then at one point I'm [73:43] like, this is ridiculous. I'm like, I'm [73:45] gonna destroy my life for all the wrong [73:47] reasons. I decide to become a scientist. [73:48] Now, we we have a great relationship and [73:51] we talk about science all the time, but [73:54] the core component that we're talking [73:55] about here is our our biological [73:57] understanding of us. And once we are [74:00] well enough, then we can take care of [74:01] others that are in our closest spheres [74:03] and then it can radiate out. Like, so if [74:05] you can check the box of being okay and [74:07] then some, you can do more and more and [74:09] more for more and more and more people. [74:10] >> 100%. Yeah. Right. like martyring [74:12] oneself for everybody and not being able [74:15] to take care of your family or yourself. [74:18] That's not good. No. So, I don't think [74:20] you should feel any shame about your [74:22] desire to make money. [74:23] >> Okay. [74:24] >> So, that that can be a spoke on the [74:25] thing. [74:25] >> The more you make, the more people [74:26] you'll be able to be able to take care [74:28] of. Well, there's this implicit [74:29] assumption that with more money, you're [74:31] just going to buy more stuff for you. [74:33] But what about you can do more stuff for [74:34] the rest of the world. 100%. Yeah. Yeah. [74:36] So, I would put that down as one of the [74:39] spokes certainly swimming around [74:40] Iceland. It was like, look, you complete [74:42] this, you make money. So sometimes that [74:44] got me through a few swims. Not as much [74:46] as the other spokes that we've been [74:47] talking about, but it was there to [74:48] identify. It was like, you finish this, [74:51] that's another world record. You can [74:53] monetize that. So yeah, that was Let's [74:55] put that down as one spoke as well. [74:57] >> Great. I've said this before and I'll [74:58] say it again that money cannot buy [75:01] happiness. It's true. But it can [75:03] certainly buffer certain kinds of stress [75:05] and anyone who says different probably [75:07] has a lot of it. So, you know, that's [75:09] just reality and and depending on where [75:12] one lives and what their basic needs are [75:14] and extravagant needs are, etc. that [75:16] those numbers differ, but it can [75:18] certainly buffer certain kinds of [75:19] stress. Um, end of story. And that's [75:22] always been true. It will always be [75:23] true. Um, you should be paid for the [75:26] work you love and that serves the world. [75:28] That's that's the goal. You've talked [75:29] before and I'm very interested in this [75:31] notion of dark energy versus light [75:33] energy. You know, f you energy is [75:36] powerful, but there's this assumption [75:38] that it drains us more quickly than I [75:42] love you energy. And I think that's true [75:44] because of the relationship to dopamine [75:47] and and other chemicals to love and [75:49] positive like generative things versus [75:52] just fu energy. These are some of my [75:54] favorite experiments, but they're their [75:56] outcome is kind of dark but telling [75:59] about human nature. Robert Heath was a [76:01] neurosurgeon. Um, and he had patients [76:03] with electrodes embedded in many [76:06] different places in their brain and they [76:08] could self- stimulate and some [76:10] stimulation areas would lead to feelings [76:12] of drunkenness, others sexual arousal, [76:14] others would make them giddy, others [76:16] would make them tired. And so he let [76:18] them basically self- stimulate at will. [76:20] And it wasn't a ton of patients that had [76:23] this as you can imagine, but across all [76:26] of them, the area of the brain that they [76:28] preferred to stimulate the most by a [76:31] pretty impressive margin was the area of [76:33] the brain turns out to be the midline [76:36] phalamus where they would experience [76:39] mild frustration and anger. They found [76:42] it to be incredibly arousing, incredibly [76:45] motivating, incredibly useful in a way [76:49] that sitting in the chair with their [76:50] head in a stereotax was totally useless, [76:53] except they just really liked it. [76:55] [snorts] And it's telling, a little [76:57] dark, but telling because it it speaks [76:59] to humans desire to have an me versus [77:02] them kind of feeling, [77:04] >> like [clears throat] frustration. That [77:06] arousal [77:08] again drives [77:10] all sorts of things whereby maybe [77:13] otherwise we would become complacent. [77:16] That's fascinating. See, I love what you [77:18] said there because I think when you look [77:20] at the the anthropology of humans, the [77:21] history of as humans, it's it's so [77:23] interesting that people sometimes go to [77:24] me, why why do you do these swims? Like [77:26] why just put yourself through that? And [77:28] I go, well, I think humans have always [77:30] had this idea of kind of self-discipline [77:32] for self-discovery. You look across [77:34] different cultures, whether it was the [77:35] Yamabushi monks of Japan, for instance. [77:38] I actually lived with them for a little [77:39] bit. We went on a it's called an [77:40] Okugaki. It's a p a pilgrimage. You [77:42] meditate under ice cold waterfalls, [77:44] drink uh green tea, and basically do a [77:46] marathon a day in the mountains. The [77:48] mountains was their church and it was [77:50] brutal blisters and yet you wear [77:51] basically these like sort of wooden [77:54] sandals as well. It was horrible. You [77:56] look at the Aborigines going walk about. [77:58] You know, there's the Masai tribe there. [78:00] There's we've always been doing [78:01] something. So I think that's so strange [78:04] that were they just hitting the button, [78:06] you know, on frustration and stuff like [78:08] this. So do you think that is do you [78:10] think that's tapping into exactly the [78:12] same experiment? I do. I mean I I picked [78:14] a hard career for me, you know, uh you [78:17] know, science is hard, it's slow, it's [78:21] grueling, and then you have breakthrough [78:22] and you know, like so I got very [78:24] accustomed to that. But I think that we [78:26] all kind of crave that but shy away from [78:29] it too. It's exhausting if there isn't [78:32] some sort of reward loop in there to [78:34] kind of re-up us. And so I think all [78:37] cultures have it. All careers have it. [78:40] My friends who are visual artists, they [78:42] certainly have it. Their torment is part [78:45] of their fuel. And they run this dial [78:49] that we're talking about. This uh the [78:51] spokes on this thing that we haven't yet [78:54] named that maybe we'll name at the end. [78:56] Um that you'll name at the end. I think [78:58] it's what we're talking about is is [79:00] tapping into drive and motivation but [79:03] with a purpose [79:04] >> and the purp the purpose can vary in in [79:06] time and I think all cultures have [79:09] understood this. I mean to some extent [79:11] we're all sort of neuroscientists. It's [79:12] just that some people look with a like [79:14] with a with more precise tools right and [79:17] and give things names. But I consider [79:19] you a neuroscientist from the [79:21] perspective of like your level of self [79:23] analysis as you you do these things. On [79:25] that note, very quickly as well, there [79:27] was another one and I wanted to to get [79:28] your opinion on this because I again, [79:31] this is going to sound so strange, but I [79:32] lived with the Jamanau tribe in in the [79:34] Amazon jungle for a while. [79:36] >> We did Irawaska uh for an entire week. [79:38] It was this ceremony. Um I was 21 at the [79:41] time. Uh just finished kind of [79:43] professional sports and never touched [79:45] drugs, psyched anything like that. Um [79:47] very much a dear to the Wilder Band [79:49] substance list. And then for this [79:51] documentary, they dropped me in the [79:52] middle of the Amazon jungle and they [79:53] were like, "Here go this is I Wasa." [79:54] didn't even know what it was and I was [79:56] like what? So it's kind of like makes me [79:58] giddy. Is it like alcohol? And they were [79:59] like a bit stronger than that. I take it [80:03] basically throughout the entire week as [80:05] well. My my first was like the the worst [80:07] trip like ever. I did everything wrong. [80:09] And and it was actually explained to me [80:11] my friend for instance um Ruben he works [80:14] at Glastenbury so he's done all sorts of [80:17] drugs. And I remember I was sitting [80:19] there first of all I was sweating it [80:21] like somebody had thrown a bucket of [80:23] water over me. And I was sweating that [80:24] lap. Then my tongue swelled. So it was [80:26] bigger than my mouth. I was speaking [80:27] like this. And then you projectile [80:30] vomit. So it just purges my system. At [80:32] this point I'm like, "Right, I need out [80:34] of this." So I turn and I look at Reuben [80:36] to my right. He's found a feather on the [80:38] floor and he's licking it to taste the [80:40] colors. I was like I was like, "You [80:42] can't help me, can you?" [laughter] It [80:44] went so wrong. That was the first night. [80:46] It was then it was later explained to [80:48] me. It's like getting on a roller [80:49] coaster, Ross. You can't get off, you [80:51] know? There's no You can't fight it. [80:52] just you've got to just sit it out. Fast [80:55] forward through the entire week and then [80:58] basically it was this again sort of [81:00] self-discipline through self-discovery. [81:02] So there was various tasks that we had [81:04] to do. We basically had to we we caught [81:05] a snake. This is going to sound so [81:07] weird. I'm so sorry. I apologize now. [81:08] You had to bite the tongue of the snake [81:11] out of its mouth. They then explained to [81:14] us that you have now got the wisdom of [81:17] the snake, but you cannot speak. If you [81:19] speak, the spirit of the snake will hunt [81:21] you for the rest of your life. So the [81:22] next 48 hours, you cannot [81:24] >> Live snake. [81:25] >> Yeah. Yeah. Live snake. Yeah. They open [81:26] its mouth and you just you basically [81:28] just tongue it. [81:28] >> I [laughter] hate snakes, but I I but I [81:31] respect them and their right to live, [81:32] but I do not like again I'm not proud of [81:36] this. But then when you taken this vow [81:38] of of silence, you then have to go [81:40] through various different tasks. So I [81:42] had to climb a tree. I'm holding on to [81:44] this tree maybe 4 m in the air and they [81:46] just smack the bottom of the tree and [81:48] then fire ants just disappear up the [81:50] tree and they just start biting you. So [81:52] you've done a week of Iawaska, [81:55] you bitten the tongue out of a snake and [81:57] then you're holding onto a tree as fire [81:59] ants are biting you. You get down, they [82:01] immediately take you to another tree. [82:03] There's a hornets's nest. You see where [82:06] this is going? Bang. Hit the hornets's [82:07] nest. You just have to sit there and [82:09] just take the stings and not make a [82:10] sound. But what was so strange, so [82:13] strange, and I love that you brought up [82:14] this study is having completed all of [82:18] that and been initiated with the Jamanau [82:20] tribe, the feeling that I had [82:22] afterwards, whether it was Iaskar [82:23] induced, whether it was the pain, I [82:25] don't know, but it was just cathartic. [82:28] It felt good that at the end of the [82:30] ceremony, there was a I not euphoria, [82:34] but I was like, "Wow, you know, we did [82:36] it." And it's so strange. I'm not [82:39] [laughter] I'm not advocating or [82:40] recommending it to anyone, but it was [82:42] weird that maybe I was just pushing that [82:44] button in the brain listening to that [82:47] study. There are so many times in my [82:48] life when I was pushing the button. I'd [82:52] like to take a quick break and [82:53] acknowledge one of our sponsors, [82:54] Element. Element is an electrolyte drink [82:57] that has everything you need and nothing [82:58] you don't. That means the electrolytes, [83:01] sodium, magnesium, and potassium, all in [83:03] the correct ratios, but no sugar. Proper [83:05] hydration is critical for brain and body [83:08] function. Even a slight degree of [83:10] dehydration can diminish your cognitive [83:11] and physical performance. 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In fact, I love [83:55] them all. I love the watermelon, the [83:56] raspberry, the citrus, and I really love [83:58] the lemonade flavor. So, if you'd like [84:00] to try Element, you can go to [84:01] drinkelement.com/huberman [84:04] to claim a free Element sample pack with [84:06] any purchase. Again, that's [84:07] drinkelement.com/huberman [84:10] to claim a free sample pack. I mean, I [84:12] think a lot of people are more or less [84:14] addicted to social media because of its [84:17] ability to tap into [84:19] mild anger and frustration provoking [84:23] >> circuitry, [84:24] >> drama, [84:25] >> us them. I mean it's you know that not [84:28] to be you know ultra repetitive but this [84:30] us them thing is is like it's at our [84:33] core of our circuitry [84:36] >> and the more you can tap into it the [84:38] more engagement you can get from the [84:40] brain [84:41] >> it's very very powerful I I mean and it [84:44] can be used to benevolent [84:46] ends you know fighting evil you know uh [84:49] this kind of thing but it's interesting [84:51] because the the psychedelics I've never [84:53] done IA but certainly psilocybin and [84:55] others like The ego dissolution that's [84:57] supposed to occur with those is supposed [84:59] to make you feel less of self versus [85:02] other boundary, you know, connected to [85:03] [clears throat] other beings, the [85:04] universe, etc. It's supposed to dissolve [85:07] these, you know, the the me us versus [85:09] them [85:10] >> boundary, including [85:12] >> humans to animals, humans to plants. I [85:14] mean, that's a lot of the the theory [85:16] anyway. [85:17] >> Maybe I just need to do more [85:18] psychedelics. [laughter] And maybe not. [85:21] These are powerful tools. Um, [85:23] >> I want to talk about something. um for a [85:26] moment which is steaks, not beef steaks, [85:30] although those are wonderful, too. So, [85:31] there's a really cool study that came [85:33] out in the last couple of years about [85:35] why [85:36] we choke. [85:38] >> Why we choke? It's a study in a [85:41] non-human primate, but it certainly has [85:44] relevance to humans because there's been [85:45] an analog study done in humans. So, [85:48] here's the idea. Let's say you're [85:50] throwing darts and we bet two pounds per [85:55] round of darts. I don't actually know [85:56] the details of the game darts, so [85:58] forgive me, but let's let's or [85:59] billiards. Let's make it simpler. Let's [86:01] say billiards. And we say two pounds. [86:03] Okay, you'll perform your best, I'll [86:05] perform my best. Depending on how [86:06] competitive we are, depending on your [86:08] our skill level, relative skill level, [86:10] somebody will win, somebody will not [86:12] win, etc. Okay, now we bet £100,000. [86:16] >> Okay. Well, now we're paying a lot more [86:18] attention to how we're playing. [86:19] >> It will likely bring out your best and [86:21] my best. We'll see who wins. [86:24] >> But let's say we bet 2 million pounds. [86:28] >> At some point, what happens? And they've [86:30] done the brain recordings to support [86:32] what I'm about to say. At some point, [86:33] when the stakes are extremely high, the [86:37] motor cortex starts to recruit too much [86:39] circuitry and we can't perform well. [86:42] It's not that we can't do the thing. [86:44] It's that too many commands are being [86:46] sent into the system [86:47] >> and we start incorporating musculature [86:49] and a connective tissue that normally [86:52] needs to be excluded in order to have [86:53] the precision of the the shot. [86:56] >> When you're doing these long endurance [86:58] events, it's slightly different because [86:59] you can afford to have an imperfect [87:01] stroke now and again or pretty often and [87:04] you'll still continue. But how much [87:06] attention are you paying to a your form [87:09] and your desire to do things quote [87:11] unquote perfectly in a moment? And how [87:14] much attention are you paying to the [87:15] stakes? Like what's at stake here? Your [87:18] reputation, your ego, your family, your [87:21] whatever. [87:22] >> How much in mind [87:25] are the stakes? What's so interesting [87:27] about what you said, I think for me, [87:29] like on the Yukon swim for instance, [87:32] it's almost um anticlimactic when you [87:34] start it. It was the same with the [87:35] Iceland one as well actually in that [87:38] it's not a heroic start. There's no like [87:41] dive. It's not there's no fine motor [87:43] skills. It's not like a 50 m swim where [87:45] everything has to be completely dialed [87:47] in and if something goes wrong because [87:48] the stakes are too high and you're [87:50] hyperaroused. It's not like that. It's [87:52] kind of knowing this isn't going to be [87:54] over quickly. You know, even if I have a [87:56] bad start, it's fine. I got 100 days, [87:58] you know. So, for me, when it's ultra [88:00] endurance, less so. However, with that [88:03] said, there's definitely times where the [88:07] stakes are high. There's all these [88:09] reasons, both negative and positive, and [88:12] things aren't going well. And there's [88:14] times where I've gone, do you know what? [88:16] Just swim for the enjoyment of it, Ross. [88:19] You know, let's let's just remove [88:20] everything else. And I and only now [88:23] speaking to you, I realize that's maybe [88:25] because it was just bubbling away, [88:26] bubbling away, you know, and and we were [88:27] getting close to that threshold where I [88:29] would start to just recruit more and it [88:32] would become deteriorating in terms of [88:34] my technique. There was times when I [88:36] just went, I'm I'm not even looking at [88:38] my watch. I'd say to the crew, don't [88:40] even tell me what speeds I'm doing. Just [88:41] I'm just going to swim. I'm just going [88:43] to enjoy being out here because it is a [88:45] privilege to be swimming over the Arctic [88:47] Circle with dolphins, you know, chasing [88:49] me and stuff. And and that's where I'd [88:50] go, Ross, stop caring. Just, you know, [88:53] we'll care tomorrow, but now just stop [88:56] caring. Yeah. So, it's reduce the stakes [88:58] in your head. Interesting. These swims [89:01] um are very long and as you said, can [89:04] can continue 50 plus hours. Do you [89:07] notice that your motivation, your energy [89:10] waxes and waines according to your [89:12] circadian rhythm? [89:13] >> So much so. Certainly at the start of [89:15] the Iceland swim because it was in the [89:17] summer, we had almost 24 hours of [89:18] daylight and it was crazy how I just I [89:22] never got that deep restorative sleep. [89:25] Also, as well, we were doing 6 hours on, [89:27] 6 hours off. So, you you're working with [89:28] the tide as well. So, it doesn't matter [89:30] if it's 2:00 in the morning, 2 in the [89:31] afternoon. When the tide changes, you [89:33] get in. And I think um just [89:35] understanding that motivation was so [89:37] closely linked to my circadian rhythm [89:39] and whether I just wasn't getting that [89:41] deep restorative sleep. Sometimes if we [89:44] got stormbbound, I had the privilege of [89:46] sleeping for 8 hours, you know, 10 [89:47] hours. And the next day it was like [89:50] somebody just dialed up the brightness [89:52] on the world again. And I was like, [89:53] "Things aren't things aren't so bad." [89:55] You know, this is okay. I can do this. [89:57] But but sometimes, again, if you're not [89:59] sleeping, circadian room, 24 hours of [90:01] daylight, tied on, tied off. I was so [90:04] aware that I couldn't trust my own [90:06] brain. And that that neurotransmitters, [90:08] chemical signals, they were all against [90:09] me. Depleting serotonin, dopamine, and [90:13] that was just you now have no motivation [90:18] hormonally, chemically, biochemistry. [90:20] It was it was something else. Maybe it [90:22] was the anterior mids singular cause. I [90:24] I don't know. But it's like it's [90:25] discipline motiv. You have no motivation [90:27] today, Ross. This is disgusting. Your [90:29] tongue's falling off. It's gray. I'm [90:31] getting smashed by jellyfish. And then [90:34] there was the odd time where it was nice [90:36] to swim. I mean, you'd wake up, there [90:38] would be, you know, a rainbow, the [90:40] fjord, frozen fjord, and I a this is, [90:42] you know, the northern lights, swimming [90:44] under the northern lights, looking up at [90:45] the Valkyries. This is amazing. But 90% [90:49] of the time it wasn't. As well, [90:51] >> they should have told us all in the [90:53] third grade the don't believe any of [90:56] your thoughts that occur between 2 and 5 [90:59] a.m. is one I tell myself all the time. [91:01] Just don't believe it. I now I don't [91:02] believe anything my brain tells me [91:04] between 2 and 5 a.m. And I think they [91:06] also should have told us that one of the [91:09] great reasons to get to a point with [91:11] something anything physical, cognitive, [91:13] emotional, etc. where you feel like [91:15] what's the point is so that you can [91:17] experience the point coming back into [91:20] your mind and you realize oh there are [91:22] going to be moments in life where I just [91:23] think like what's the point but there [91:25] will be this moment ahead of it that [91:28] the the the logic of it the the positive [91:31] emotions associate come back and then [91:33] you realize the brain it tricks itself [91:35] into thinking that what's happening [91:36] right now is going to go on forever. [91:38] >> Yeah. [91:39] >> And and that to me was like the the like [91:42] the biggest insight. It came not from me [91:44] but from my friend Ryan Suave who's um [91:47] this incredible trauma therapist and he [91:50] helps addicts and he's been on this [91:52] podcast before and he said if you can [91:53] tolerate a certain amount of emotional [91:55] discomfort for one second then you can [91:58] tolerate it for 10 seconds and if you [91:59] can tolerate it for 10 seconds you can [92:01] do it for a minute and so on and so on. [92:02] He said but the problem is negative [92:04] emotions [92:05] make us feel for some reason like [92:07] they're going to go on forever. Positive [92:09] emotions don't have the same effect. We [92:10] tend to think this is going to stop at [92:12] some point and then we lose it's like [92:14] grasping fog and it goes away. [92:16] >> I don't know what that is. I don't have [92:17] an explanation for it. But it is a [92:19] diabolical feature of our wiring. [92:21] >> It is and and and it's that is such a [92:23] skill in that moment when the dark [92:26] clouds are over you to be like I can't [92:28] trust myself. And also even as a team as [92:30] well there was times where you know [92:31] we're caught in a storm. I didn't swim [92:33] as far as I needed to that day. I'm [92:35] angry at the team cuz they put me in [92:36] against the tide. All sorts of things. [92:39] And we almost like had a rule that [92:41] exactly to your point between those [92:43] periods you don't argue. You don't try [92:46] and have a we just go you know what I'm [92:47] going to sleep I'll see you in the [92:48] morning you know there's just there's no [92:50] point arguing about it now because we [92:52] can't trust ourselves. And so I think [92:54] that was just to be really logical [92:56] rational. I talk a lot about stoicism [92:59] because I found on my swim sports [93:02] psychology can only take you so far. But [93:04] when I started reading about Marcus [93:06] Aurelius, Senica, Epictitus, I was like, [93:08] well, this is this is more applicable, [93:10] you know, control the controllables, [93:11] except the uncontrollables. This this [93:14] feels better, you know, because with [93:16] sports psychology, it's prehab, rehab [93:18] conditions are perfect, and that's easy. [93:21] But what are you doing when your tendons [93:23] in your shoulder are falling off? Your [93:25] tongue's falling off. And I'm like, [93:27] stoicism helps me a little bit more. [93:29] >> You said your tongue's falling off. What [93:30] are you referring to? Your actual tongue [93:32] falling off. [93:33] >> Yeah. Yeah. shouldn't have bit that [93:34] snake, dude. [laughter] [93:36] >> Think that's what it is. No, so it's [93:39] salt water exposure. Basically, you [93:40] know, the human body is not meant to be [93:42] in salt water for that long. So, it [93:43] extracts all the moisture from your [93:45] tongue. Um, on the the GB swim, for [93:47] instance, we sat it was about a week in [93:49] and I remember they made this amazing [93:52] soup. It was just this rich vegetable [93:54] soup. All the team are tucking into it. [93:56] It was amazing. So full of vegetables, [93:58] nutrients. But I looked over and I [93:59] noticed that mine had I didn't know if [94:02] it was pork or chicken. So I turned to [94:04] the captain. I said, "Why why haven't [94:05] you got any pork or chicken? It's only [94:06] in mine." And he just lent over and he [94:08] went, "Ross, that's not pork or chicken. [94:10] That's your tongue." [laughter] [94:11] >> And it was falling off [94:13] >> in the soup. [94:15] >> Oh, brutal. [94:16] >> I know. But coconut oil, for those for [94:18] anyone listening, if you find yourself [94:19] in a similar situation, coconut oil acts [94:20] as a barrier, maintains the moisture, [94:22] you keep yourself, and it grows back. It [94:25] did grow back as well. So, [94:26] >> all right, let's get real honest here, [94:28] Ross. Um, is there anything in everyday [94:30] life that you have to absolutely scruff [94:32] yourself and and and you know badger [94:35] yourself into doing that is absolutely [94:36] trivial in somebody else's eyes? Oh, [94:39] >> and if the answer is no, that's fine. If [94:40] you if you just like show up to do you [94:43] brush your teeth twice a day? They're [94:45] nice and white. So, you know, [laughter] [94:46] do you ever feel like I don't want to do [94:48] this again or you just do you just do [94:50] you ever think I don't want to do this [94:51] like and you can't tell why? [94:53] >> Yeah. Yeah. I'm Yeah, I think certainly [94:56] if you spoke to my girlfriend, you know, [94:57] house chores and things like that, I'm [94:58] terri I'm so messy. [95:00] >> No, I'm kidding. [laughter] [95:02] >> I'm so bad. I'm so bad. I'm really [95:03] messy. And And for me, again, maybe it's [95:06] related to doping, but I just need those [95:07] big grand goals. So, it's just Yeah. [95:10] swim around Iceland. Swim world's [95:12] longest non-stop river swim. Yeah. Take [95:15] out the trash. Do the do the washing up. [95:18] >> Is it because it's too easy or it's too [95:20] hard? I'm not sure. I'm just really bad [95:23] at like admin and basic stuff. It goes [95:26] goes back to what I said. If someone [95:28] said, "Oh, swim the English Channel." [95:29] I'm it's been done, you know? It doesn't [95:32] doesn't really [clears throat] appeal. [95:33] So, and I think it's the same in in [95:34] life. If you said there's a record for [95:36] taking out the trash, no one's ever [95:38] taken two tons of trash so that I'll be [95:40] like, "Oh, [laughter] [95:42] hold my beer." So, my girlfriend knows [95:45] this. You know, she knows how to push my [95:47] buttons, so she might do that. [95:48] >> That's so good. If there was a [95:50] competition, [laughter] [95:53] >> significant others everywhere are taking [95:55] note. [95:56] >> A few minutes ago, you mentioned [95:57] something [95:58] >> that told me that there are times when [96:02] you can no longer advocate for yourself [96:04] as like, let's do this. I've got this. [96:06] Okay. Like your arm gives out. Let's go. [96:08] Come on. You're going to bring the arm [96:09] along like a member of your team. But in [96:11] the moments where you're really down in [96:12] the pit, [96:14] it sounded as if, and I don't want to [96:16] put words or thoughts into your mind, [96:17] but it sounded as if you get outside of [96:19] yourself and you're like, "We're going [96:21] because this is the middle of the night [96:24] and you know you don't like this, but [96:26] you now become you sort of third person [96:28] yourself and now you bring you along." [96:31] And I think that's such an important [96:33] tool for the times when there's no [96:37] coach, there's no team, there's no goal [96:39] in mind. It hurts like hell. You don't [96:43] see the point. You've run out of [ __ ] [96:45] You've run out of [ __ ] me. You know, [96:46] you've just run out. [96:48] >> And you just have to transcend or exit [96:51] yourself and just go, [96:54] >> let's go. 100%. Yeah. And and and I love [96:57] that you asked that as well because [96:59] again certainly on the Iceland swim, I [97:02] took such inspiration from the [97:04] berserkers, you know. So, so for those [97:05] who don't know, you know, the [97:06] berserkers, it literally means bare [97:08] shirts. They would be wearing sort of [97:09] these bare shirts. These ancient Nordic [97:12] warriors who would enter into a battle [97:14] frenzied state where they were [97:16] impervious to pain and fear. There was [97:19] even as well uh wolf warriors as well. [97:21] So there was the berserkers but the wolf [97:23] warriors uh embodied the spirit of the [97:25] wolf. They would bite down on their [97:27] shields when run into battle as well. [97:29] Now historians some think they might [97:31] have been using you know hallucinogenic [97:33] mushrooms. Others think it was maybe uh [97:35] ritualistic chanting, breathing to get [97:37] into this state, but whatever it was, [97:40] they were no longer themselves. They [97:41] were the spirit of that particular [97:43] animal that they were embodying. And I [97:45] think certainly towards the end of of [97:47] the Iceland swim, I was lucky enough to [97:50] to speak to this again, sort of like a [97:52] an old uh chief, and he said, "Ross, you [97:55] need to stop thinking like a swimmer. [97:57] You need to become a berserker. You need [97:58] to just get in there and just think [98:01] entirely differently." Again, it's um [98:03] Samuel Johnson, 17th century English [98:05] writer, uh whoever makes a beast of [98:07] himself gets rid of the pain of being a [98:10] man. And I think for me, certainly on [98:12] that South Coast, I was like, got to get [98:15] rid of pain of being a man, just become [98:16] a beast. And I think it was that as [98:18] well, just no longer thinking of [98:21] becoming that third person, but but also [98:23] just becoming wolf warrior, berserker. [98:26] >> Amazing. [98:28] >> Do you like to read? It just seems like [98:29] you know a lot about these um ancient [98:31] traditions and tribes and [98:32] >> I loved it. Yeah. I think um cuz this is [98:35] going to sound really strange as well. [98:36] So I lived in Namibia with the Sam [98:38] Bushman for a while. Amazing endurance [98:41] athletes. We were covering a marathon a [98:43] day, barely any water for an entire [98:45] week. I remember all we had we shared a [98:47] porcupine between us as well. Just [98:48] amazing athletes. But there was there [98:50] was one particular guy in the the tribe [98:52] and he he was part Namibian but he's [98:55] also part of the the Kurigin tribe which [98:57] I hope I'm I'm getting this right but [98:58] it's basically an ethnic group that's [99:00] that's specific to Kenya and they [99:02] produce more marathon runners just elite [99:06] marathon runners than than anywhere [99:07] else. And he turned to me and was [99:09] sitting around this fireplace at one [99:11] point and he said Ross do you know why [99:13] people from the Curigen tribe are so [99:14] good? Do you know why we're such great [99:16] runners? And I was like, "Yeah, like you [99:18] know, altitude training." I went, [99:20] "Nope." I was like, "Your diet?" And he [99:22] goes, "Nope." And I was like, "Barefoot [99:23] [clears throat] running, beautiful [99:25] biomechanics, and you drill that from an [99:26] early age." And he went, "No." And I was [99:28] like, "Right, go on then. Tell me." He [99:30] says, "It's our pain tolerance." So we [99:33] have a tradition that when a boy is [99:35] basically going into adulthood, we have [99:37] him in front of the entire tribe, we [99:39] take some mud, like clay, we put it on [99:41] his face, and then he has to stand in [99:43] front of the entire tribe. The chief [99:46] comes out, takes his tackle in his hand, [99:49] circumcises him, which is essentially [99:51] with like a bamboo shoot, you know, [99:53] >> his penis. [99:53] >> His penis circumcises him in front of [99:56] the entire tribe. He cannot flinch, [100:00] cannot flinch, make any sounds. If the [100:03] mud cracks on his face, then all of a [100:05] sudden everyone in the tribe will be [100:06] like, he's not desirable. So he doesn't [100:09] pass on his genes. So it's this idea [100:11] that he said that just generation after [100:14] generation knowing that those where the [100:15] mud doesn't crack are then considered [100:18] desirable then mate then pass on their [100:19] genes and their offspring do exactly the [100:22] same exactly the same exactly the same [100:23] and what you're left with is just this [100:25] incredible group of people with their [100:28] pain tolerance. I mean with that as we [100:30] were sat around the fire he pulled out a [100:31] knife and was like Ross do you want to [100:32] run faster? I was like I'm good. [100:34] [laughter] [100:35] I'm good. [gasps] But I I think I'm [100:37] fascinated to answer your question. I [100:39] love looking back through history and [100:42] just will take inspiration from anywhere [100:44] and everywhere. Even that if that is [100:46] ritualistic circumcision, I've not done [100:48] it with mud on my face, but I do find [100:50] that stuff fascinating. Wow. [laughter] [100:54] The the uh the alternate response would [100:56] have been, "Look, I totally respect your [100:59] tradition. I spent a lot of time in cold [101:01] water. I need all the insulation I can [101:03] get. [laughter] [101:05] But but hey uh you know your reply is up [101:08] to you. Wow. Is there anything like that [101:11] that you found with pain tolerance as [101:12] well? Are there studies around that? [101:13] >> Yeah. So I mean on my list of things to [101:15] discuss with you is the generalizability [101:17] of of resilience training. You know this [101:19] is a fascinating and and still somewhat [101:23] opaque area of science. I mean you know [101:25] let me put this way. On the one hand we [101:27] know that there's a very limited and [101:30] well- definfined list of chemicals. [101:32] Epinephrine adrenaline released in the [101:34] body. Norepinephrine released in the [101:35] brain from the locus ceruius. We can [101:36] even get specific about locations and [101:38] circuits, dopamine and if the stress is [101:42] long enough cortisol that are associated [101:44] with uh a high arousal painful stimulus [101:47] and other things too, right? Dinorphine [101:49] which is sort of the opposite of [101:50] endorphin. In any case, you'll [101:53] experience a a rise in those whether [101:55] you're getting into uncomfortably cold [101:56] water, you're getting stung by hornets [101:59] or god forbid you're uh you're [102:02] experiencing a public um circumcision [102:04] and and you can't flinch. It's true, [102:06] right? I mean, among other things, [102:08] right? There are many many other [102:09] molecules and things happening there, [102:10] but those but those undoubtedly are [102:12] involved. So then the question becomes [102:14] can our memory system our prefrontal [102:16] cortex and our memory system apply a set [102:20] of rules whereby in a different stressor [102:24] this thing this ar this like negative [102:26] arousal pain pain can it is it familiar [102:29] to us and can we then walk ourselves [102:31] through it in a way that we understand [102:32] okay this pain makes it feel like it's [102:35] going to go on forever but this too [102:36] shall pass right and to some [102:38] [clears throat] extent the data say yes [102:40] in particular about deliberate cold [102:42] water exposure. But that's a unique one [102:44] because first of all, unless the water [102:46] is very, very cold and god forbid people [102:50] don't jump into an ice hole. I'm so [102:51] tired of seeing people either do [102:53] hyperventilation and then go into cold [102:56] water and die, water of any kind, and [102:57] die or videos of people jumping into ice [102:59] holes and getting swept under. It's [103:00] really, it happens and it's awful. But [103:03] deliberate cold exposure with a shower [103:05] or a cold plunge done safely. [103:07] >> People can get familiar with the [103:09] experience of being flooded with [103:11] adrenaline and the fact that the mind is [103:13] in complete disarray for the first 20 or [103:15] 30 seconds and then they can slow their [103:16] breathing and grab hold of their mind [103:19] and create a strategy to get through it [103:21] or get out of it, whatever. This is this [103:23] is stress inoculation training, right? [103:26] the neurochemicals that are released [103:28] don't change [103:30] >> but the inoculation piece is the [103:32] familiarity and the ability to not [103:34] further increase adrenaline through [103:36] panic. So in that sense yes [103:40] but it's also true that if you look at [103:42] the cognitive behavioral therapies [103:44] around phobias for instance public [103:47] speaking phobia people can use cognitive [103:50] behavioral therapy or a beta blocker for [103:52] that matter to successfully overcome [103:55] that [103:56] >> progressive exposure to the thing with [103:58] you know which basically means like not [104:00] that much adrenaline okay that's too [104:02] much let's repeat this a few times and [104:03] just can let them move through that but [104:05] it doesn't seem to translate to other [104:07] stressful circumstances perhaps because [104:10] the adrenaline is kept be beneath a [104:13] certain threshold. [104:14] >> So I believe and based on my limited [104:18] amount of work with but certainly [104:20] conversations with the you know the tier [104:21] one uh operator community and the the [104:24] use of cold water in all military [104:26] branches at least in the US as a as a [104:29] tool for building up stress tolerance [104:30] that yeah it translates pain tolerance [104:33] translates but people are coming in with [104:35] a with a sort of set [104:37] um probably genetic and experiential [104:40] um predisposition [104:41] >> and and we see this, you know, I knew [104:43] kids growing up whose pain tolerance was [104:45] too high and they did really dumb stuff [104:49] and they're missing fingers or they're [104:51] dead, right? Or they needed extreme [104:53] consequences before they adjusted their [104:56] behavior. Other people, they were around [104:58] the corner when the discussion of a [105:00] firecracker came up and they probably [105:02] experienced too much anxiety in too many [105:04] different domains of life. it. I'm not [105:07] trying to dodge the question, but I [105:08] think we should be very careful about [105:10] the idea that any one particular type of [105:12] training makes us tough. [105:14] >> The the cold water swimmer might have a [105:18] hard time listening in a hard [105:19] conversation where the feedback they're [105:21] getting is not pleasant, but they might [105:24] be completely stoic and just think, [105:26] "This sucks. This sucks. This sucks. But [105:28] I can calm myself through this. I can do [105:30] this." If they can understand that the [105:32] same underlying mechanisms are taking [105:34] place. I see. [105:35] >> Is that I don't know if that's [105:36] satisfactory. [105:37] >> No, that sounds but if I were to answer [105:39] any other way, it wouldn't be um true to [105:41] the data. [105:42] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That makes a lot of [105:43] sense, [105:44] >> you know, and I think cold water is a [105:45] great training tool [105:46] >> if done safely. I want to ask you about [105:48] your training, your physical training. [105:51] One thing that's peculiar about you, at [105:52] least to me, is that you're you're [105:53] pretty heavily muscled for a guy that's [105:55] supposed to float in the water. So, um [105:59] like uh what's that about? I mean, you [106:02] do strength stuff, too. What does your [106:04] training look like now when you're in [106:05] between [106:06] >> sort of um these super events? [106:09] >> A lot of strength training cuz I think [106:10] it's so interesting that when doing the [106:13] sort of swims that I do, these [106:14] ultramarathons, you know, around [106:16] countries, it's you're taking swimming [106:19] and conventional sport science and [106:20] you're just moving outside of those [106:22] realms. For instance, a lot of friends [106:24] of mine who are amazing swimmers, [106:25] Olympians, [106:27] sometimes I'll ask questions like, "Oh, [106:29] around Iceland, was it a two beat leg [106:31] kick, a four beat leg kick? Are you [106:32] bilaterally breathing? What's your V2? [106:34] What's your lactic threshold? I'm like, [106:36] no, no, no, no. When you're caught in an [106:38] Arctic storm and you are just [106:39] windmilling, none of that matters. [106:42] Strength training, especially with [106:43] mechano transduction, this idea that [106:45] people think of strength training is [106:46] just improving the strength of the [106:47] muscles, but actually connective tissue, [106:49] ligaments, tendons, they all get [106:50] stronger as well. For me, that's why I [106:52] strength train so much because on my [106:54] swims, it's not my lactic threshold V2 [106:57] technique. It will be a ligament or a [106:59] tendon, something that gives up that [107:01] will stop the swim physically. [107:03] >> Got it. The chassis. [107:04] >> Exactly. Exactly. [107:05] >> Can't have the chassis breakdown. [107:07] >> Exactly that. So, it's almost um I joke [107:10] that friends of mine from L University, [107:13] Adam Py, the greatest breaststroke the [107:14] world has ever seen. He is amazing. He [107:17] is poetic in the water. He is a makeo [107:19] shark. It's just beautiful to watch him. [107:22] I am a chubby whale at best, you know. I [107:24] am just there, you know, and just [107:26] migrating basically that that is what [107:28] I'm doing. I'm not poetic in the water, [107:30] but I just I won't stop. So, I think [107:32] strength training and it's only now cuz [107:35] for so long in endurance it was a dirty [107:36] word, you know, strength training. [107:38] Whereas now, we're understanding that [107:39] certainly the idea of general physical [107:41] preparedness or in your pre-season [107:44] making the body physically robust enough [107:47] to then endure the the intensity or the [107:50] volume that you subject it to later. [107:52] friend of mine at the English institute [107:53] of sport had a great saying it was like [107:54] sometimes you need to train to train you [107:56] know before I can subject you to 150 km [108:00] in the pool a week we need to make sure [108:02] the connective tissue and everything [108:03] there's no weak part of that kinetic [108:05] chain so I think at the moment that [108:06] that's kind of where we're at that [108:08] general physical preparedness [108:10] >> I'd like to take a quick break and [108:11] acknowledge our sponsor eightle makes [108:14] smart mattress covers with cooling [108:16] heating and sleep tracking capacity just [108:19] launched the pod 6 which is their most [108:21] advanced sleep system. The Pod 6 is half [108:23] the size of their previous models. It's [108:25] 20% faster with its cooling and heating, [108:28] and it has nine times as many sensors [108:30] for tracking your sleep. The reason why [108:32] eight is so effective at improving your [108:34] sleep quality and duration is because it [108:36] helps control your core body [108:38] temperature. And the reason for that is [108:40] that in order to fall and stay deeply [108:42] asleep, your core body temperature has [108:44] to drop by about 1 to 3°. And to wake up [108:46] feeling completely refreshed and [108:48] energized, you actually want your body [108:50] temperature to be increasing in the [108:52] final hours of your sleep. Eight [108:54] automatically regulates the temperature [108:56] of your bed throughout the night and is [108:58] monitoring your sleep and dynamically [109:00] adjusting the temperature of your sleep [109:01] environment so you get the maximum [109:03] amount of deep sleep and rapid eye [109:05] movement sleep. I've been sleeping on an [109:07] eight-le mattress cover for nearly five [109:09] years now. And with each new iteration [109:11] of eight, it gets better and better at [109:13] figuring out what my body needs in order [109:15] to get the best possible night's sleep. [109:17] And of course, it provides me excellent [109:18] data about just how much deep and rapid [109:21] eye movement sleep I got. If you would [109:22] like to try eight, go to [109:24] eight.com/huberman [109:26] to get up to $200 off their new Pod 6. [109:29] Eight ships to many countries worldwide, [109:31] including Mexico and the UAE. Again, [109:34] that's 8.com/huberman [109:36] to save up to $200. I don't have [109:39] anything even close to your uh physical [109:41] abilities, but a few years ago, I [109:43] decided that I would do two kinds of [109:45] training. I'd love your thoughts on how [109:47] I can improve this. Um, in addition to [109:49] doing strength and endurance training [109:50] and some sprints and the same kind of [109:51] thing, it is more about the mental side. [109:53] >> I was on a camping trip with my [109:55] girlfriend for a birthday and we we did [109:56] a a hike up Clouds Rest, which is one of [109:59] my favorite hikes in Yeuse. about 14 mi [110:01] up and back and and most anyone can do [110:03] it with some level of endurance and [110:05] physical ability. It's not grueling, but [110:06] I had a sinus infection and it was her [110:08] birthday and I've been there before. She [110:10] hadn't been there before and I wanted to [110:11] like really show her a great time and [110:13] she's really physically robust and and [110:15] she was just motoring up and I was [110:18] carrying a lot of water, granted, but I [110:19] was struggling that day and I decided at [110:22] some point that I would I knew I was [110:24] going to get to the top cuz the the hike [110:26] is actually not that awesome along the [110:27] way, but at the top it's just majestic. [110:29] you're above half dome. It's so awesome. [110:32] Uh you could run it. Uh I've run it in [110:34] the past and I highly recommend it. It's [110:36] just a fantastic fantastic hike for [110:38] anybody. But along the way, I realized I [110:41] was really struggling. So I decided I [110:43] would just watch I this thing where I [110:45] like I'm just going to watch the process [110:47] and see what the what the cycles are. [110:49] And I noticed the cycles went from [110:50] something like f this this really sucks. [110:53] I'm going to just push against that to I [110:56] would distract myself. I would think [110:57] about something else. And then I would [110:59] just sort of go into this kind of like [111:02] liinal state and then it would repeat. [111:04] It would go back to f this. And [111:06] sometimes the time scale of those would [111:07] be minutes and sometimes it would be [111:08] like tens of minutes and so on. I [111:10] thought this is kind of interesting. [111:11] It's like three things. It's not 20. [111:13] It's not it's not like all the spokes. [111:15] It's like three and they're on repeat. [111:17] >> I was like this is pretty useful. Like [111:19] I'm going to try and do this. And so I [111:21] you know I in other areas. So now when I [111:24] run my longer runs, I think, okay, I'm [111:27] either going to listen to something and [111:28] distract myself, music, etc., pay [111:31] attention to what's around. Or there are [111:33] some runs now that I do where I try and [111:34] concentrate on every step and just try [111:36] and make it as painful as possible to [111:38] just try and like build a resilience for [111:41] each [111:42] >> cuz in a hard conversation, distracting [111:45] yourself is actually not useful. So, [111:47] this is maybe where the translatability [111:49] or non-transatability of of stress [111:51] inoculation needs more of a fine point. [111:54] The reason I bring this up here like [111:55] this is I I I feel like the sports [111:58] performance and the psychological [111:59] performance community needs like more [112:01] refined tools. So, maybe it should be go [112:04] out, do the thing, and really just [112:06] concentrate on just how much it sucks [112:08] for as many seconds as possible. And [112:10] every time you forget it sucks, you [112:12] failed right for a moment. And then the [112:15] other one would be learn how to distract [112:16] yourself because there are conditions [112:18] that are stressful where you want to [112:19] distract yourself and then like I've got [112:21] a friend who's a neurosurgeon and [112:22] distracting himself during a stressful [112:24] moment is like the exact wrong thing to [112:25] do. Does that make sense? It [112:27] >> makes complete sense. [112:28] >> Okay. All right. Cool. So maybe my hope [112:31] is that people listen to you around [112:34] performance and they should listen to [112:36] you because you actually do the stuff. [112:38] my runs are trivial for you and for most [112:40] people, but I feel like [112:42] >> more specific tools with more aimed at [112:45] specific outcomes, I feel like it's kind [112:47] of what the general public needs. [112:49] >> So to become a better listener, learn to [112:52] concentrate on the pain for long periods [112:54] of time and not flinch. [112:55] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 100%. But I but I love [112:58] what you said there as well because this [112:59] is something with the the Royal Marines, [113:01] a friend of mine who's a psychologist [113:02] there and he was just saying and [113:04] everyone listening will understand this [113:05] but when you're focusing on the outcome [113:08] if you're looking at the clock if you're [113:09] like how much further have I got to walk [113:11] oh my god is it you know we still got 10 [113:13] hours of walking and stuff you're [113:15] thinking of the outcome and he said you [113:16] have to just focus on the process for [113:18] you Ross when you're swimming it's [113:20] putting one arm in front of the other as [113:21] efficiently as possible. Is it a high [113:23] elbow catch? Are you finishing your [113:24] stroke? And if you focus on that, the [113:27] outcome becomes inevitable. But by [113:28] focusing on the outcome, you're not [113:30] focusing on the process. And I think for [113:32] me, when my mind drifts, sometimes I [113:34] come straight back to focus on the [113:36] process as well. But I love what you [113:38] said there because sometimes I just tune [113:40] out and I want to be anywhere but there. [113:43] And I'll be thinking of some the [113:44] weirdest things like my I'll do my [113:47] shopping list for my Christmas shopping [113:48] in my head, you know, and I'll just go [113:50] somewhere completely different. But [113:51] sometimes I do really find just drilling [113:53] back. Don't watch the clock. Don't look [113:55] at the outcome. Don't ask how far you've [113:56] got. I don't want to know. And that's [113:58] that's quite easy to do sometimes when [114:00] sea swimming because you have no point [114:01] of reference. You can't see land. So, [114:03] you are just swimming immersed in your [114:05] own thoughts. And some of the weirdest [114:07] swims I did um under the northern lights [114:09] and you also get this uh phosphorescent [114:11] algae. So, as you're swimming, the only [114:13] way I can describe it is like you're [114:15] swimming in a black hole. Like you turn [114:17] to breathe, you see the northern lights, [114:19] the Valkyries, their shimmering shields, [114:21] and then you pull. And as you pull, this [114:23] phosphorescent algae just lights up in [114:25] your face. And there's moments like that [114:27] where I'm like, I don't want to be [114:28] anywhere. I want to be so present. This [114:31] is amazing. And then other times where [114:33] I'm just, I want to be anywhere but [114:34] here. And and it's and it's having that [114:36] sort of, you know, psychological [114:38] adaptability. Just flick between all of [114:41] them. Use whichever one you need at that [114:42] moment in time. [114:44] >> The spokes [114:45] >> just go to whichever one's going to get [114:47] you through it. And you need loads of [114:48] different ones. We don't yet have a name [114:50] for it, but maybe we're sort of veering [114:52] towards something kind of akin to sort [114:54] of like the the different spokes on the [114:56] tire of resilience or something like [114:58] that. [clears throat] Exactly. Something [114:59] like that. I'm not trying to be poetic [115:00] here. I'm not a Brit nor am I Scottish, [115:02] so I can't seem to nail the nail the [115:05] nomenclature, but um I want to talk [115:08] about uh vision and share with you [115:10] something. Again, I came in like really [115:12] excited to be able to share some of my [115:13] favorite studies that hopefully uh would [115:16] be of interest uh and perhaps of use to [115:18] you and the listeners. So, be familiar [115:20] with the myth of the cyclops? [115:22] >> No. [115:22] >> Like the the guy with the one one eye in [115:25] the middle of his head. Yeah. So, [115:26] there's this wild thing where um animals [115:29] with the um with their eyes on the side [115:31] of their head tend to be prey animals [115:32] and they have panoramic vision [115:34] >> and uh animals with their eyes in the [115:37] front can generate depth perception much [115:39] better stereopsis and so on and they [115:41] tend to be the predators and there are [115:43] some animals that can transllocate their [115:44] eyes to go from kind of panoramic to [115:46] like more focused vision. Um there are a [115:48] lot of ideas about the myth of the [115:49] cyclops but when we move our vision even [115:53] though our eyes are fixed in our head [115:54] towards a particular uh virgin point [115:57] like a target it raises our arousal and [116:00] our ability to recruit energy physical [116:03] energy and mental energy. People in the [116:05] fight game know this. When we dilate our [116:08] gaze we relax. We we come off the gas [116:11] pedal a little bit. We can still do [116:13] things, but we are actually the because [116:15] of the way that vision and time [116:17] perception are linked, we can actually [116:18] see more. [116:20] >> Motion perception at the periphery gets [116:21] better obviously because you're not [116:23] looking through a soda straw. You're [116:24] looking through in kind of panorama, but [116:26] >> you are less able to recruit a lot of [116:29] energy to one one location. There are a [116:31] lot of examples of this in the animal [116:32] world that I could spell out. And this [116:35] was an area I focused on for a long [116:36] time, but we we won't go there. The myth [116:39] of the cyclops is in in part, okay, is [116:41] in part about a creature who only has [116:45] soda straw vision and therefore is [116:48] constantly angry and that anger is [116:50] actually what leads to its demise. It [116:53] can't see the big picture and so it can [116:55] be defeated by something from the [116:56] periphery. [116:57] >> I love this. [116:58] >> And so, yeah, I thought you might like [116:59] this. I thought [laughter] you might [117:00] like this. So, what I'd like to know is [117:02] even with your head underwater, but [117:03] maybe even the in the routines of daily [117:06] life, do you ever find yourself thinking [117:08] about big picture, [clears throat] [117:10] soda straw view, tunnel vision versus [117:12] kind of dialing as a dynamic process? [117:14] Because people in martial arts use this [117:17] as a way to um slow time perception down [117:20] in order to or speed it up in order to [117:23] control aspects of the fight. you're [117:25] somewhat limited underwater into what [117:26] you can see. But like you said that [117:29] focusing just on the stroke in the [117:30] moment is sort of the mental equivalent [117:33] of the soda straw view. But if you don't [117:35] keep the big picture in mind, that pain [117:37] in your shoulder and the perception of [117:39] it can grow to the point where it can [117:41] become disabling. So there's some [117:42] utility in being able to dynamically [117:45] switch back and forth. Now that you said [117:47] that, I've never thought about it like [117:49] that. I love the Cycl Smith. I love I'm [117:51] using that. That's amazing. But I I [117:53] absolutely do that. So on the Yukon swim [117:56] for instance, so that was the uh the [117:57] world's longest non-stop river swim just [117:59] down the Yukon. And there were times [118:01] where I just wanted to take everything [118:02] in and I sat there and I'm eating a [118:04] banana. I'm like wow. And I don't know [118:06] whether that's switching on the [118:07] parasympathetic nervous system. You are [118:09] relaxed. You're enjoying it. This is all [118:10] amazing. And then there was other times [118:12] like for instance like during the night [118:14] and the temperature just plummeted. I [118:17] was like that is sympathetic nervous. [118:19] That is fight or flight. And I am not [118:22] taking in anything like these amazing [118:24] scenes. People would go to me, "Oh my [118:26] god, Ross, did you see the moose? Did [118:28] you see the bear?" You know, so I'm just [118:29] like, "No, I am just staring at the [118:32] bottom of the river." And at best out of [118:35] my peripheral vision, I'm just making [118:37] sure that I've got a high elbow catch [118:38] and I'm ripping through the water. I've [118:41] just gone full Cyclops mode. Like that [118:43] is what I'm doing. And I've never [118:44] thought about it, but that's exactly [118:45] what I was doing. Yeah. And I don't [118:46] know. I'm trying to think of another [118:47] example where I've done that. But [118:49] certainly swimming that is exactly what [118:51] I do. You know that there's times when I [118:53] look head above the water having a [118:54] banana taking it all in in Iceland [118:56] looking at the fjords and then there's [118:58] times where it's just like no no no no [119:00] it is just you are dialed in cyclops [119:02] mode. [119:03] >> Yeah. A friend of mine who's from a [119:05] military group overseas, I won't say [119:07] which, told me that part of the training [119:09] that they receive in uh close quarter [119:12] combat where they encounter somebody and [119:15] they realize that it's it's going to be [119:17] close quarter combat and it's life or [119:18] death on the line is that the mental [119:21] [clears throat] set that's required to [119:23] do that is recruited immediately, right, [119:25] in the presence of a real threat. But in [119:26] training it, they have them actually d [119:29] like contract their gaze. And he he [119:31] showed me. It was actually really eerie. [119:33] Like he stared right at me and he [119:34] brought his eyes into and you could see [119:36] his you could feel his entire autonomic [119:39] tone change. And then he stopped and he [119:42] said, "I don't like that feeling." I'm [119:43] like, "Why?" He's like, "Because it's [119:45] he" He said, "I I'm not going to kill [119:46] you, but it's it's this moment where you [119:48] you you cross you've deliberately [119:50] crossed over to a point where like [119:51] you're going to you're you're going to [119:53] try and kill this person." And so it has [119:55] a you know, it's it's a risky endeavor [119:56] to go into these trenches, right? But [119:59] this seems to be a hardwired aspect of [120:01] animal visual systems, human visual [120:04] systems. I often think about how media [120:07] is trying to recruit our absolute focus [120:09] and get us to forget everything else so [120:11] that we like mindlessly trudge forward [120:13] and anger and and how to overcome that. [120:15] It's uh but then again this is powerful. [120:17] It's led to self and protection of [120:20] affiliate [120:21] >> self. But it is that it's the same with [120:23] sharks as well when just about to attack [120:24] and then they roll back their eyes [120:26] protecting. But it's the I suppose [120:28] similar in that their physiology when [120:30] they're dialed in you can see certainly [120:32] with the great whites there was behavior [120:34] where you were like we're okay and then [120:36] there was times where the the much more [120:38] experienced divers were like Ross head [120:41] on a swivel I don't like that tiger [120:42] shark what do you mean every other [120:44] behavior is excluded in favor of of just [120:46] predation [120:48] >> I mean the most the most dramatic and [120:49] and in my opinion cool example of this [120:52] is a in a species that [120:54] >> you no doubt swam with millions of them [120:58] in the English Channel which are the [120:59] cuttlefish. Cuttlefish are sephopods [121:02] like octopuses. I used to have these in [121:03] my lab and they swim around with their [121:05] eyes on the sides of their heads [121:06] >> in this kind of like benevolent but a [121:09] little bit paranoid state where they [121:11] have near 360°ree vision. They can see [121:14] very far back because they are a prey [121:15] animal. They have no skeleton to protect [121:17] them, right? They have their cuddle bone [121:18] to allow them to float, but they're [121:20] basically a protein snack. But if they [121:22] see something that they want to eat, [121:25] their eyes transllocate to the front. [121:26] They completely change in their patterns [121:29] on of of it's not not even camouflage [121:32] any longer. They're chromophores and [121:34] they become depth perception dependent [121:36] hunters. I used to study this in my lab [121:38] in San Diego and and it's just a [121:40] remarkable thing to see this like sweet [121:42] little hufflepod of an underwater little [121:44] benevolent monkey turn into a like a [121:46] vicious killer. And the transllocation [121:48] of the eyes happens first. And so this [121:52] is it's a real thing. [121:53] >> Yeah. [121:53] >> It's it recruits all sorts of machinery [121:55] in the brain and body and it also just [121:57] shuts down like nope. This is not time [121:59] to do anything else except I love that. [122:02] Yeah. I what I love about this is that [122:04] it's again it's the berserker. It's this [122:05] idea of like nature leaves clues and you [122:07] know success leaves clues. Biomimicry [122:10] and just going right we but we've lost [122:11] that. I think you know we humans have [122:13] lost certain things but this is amazing [122:15] just to go I'm going to switch this on [122:16] like you know the catfish. That's what [122:18] I'm going to do. Yeah. I love that. I'm [122:20] actually I'm going to next time I swim [122:21] I'm going to I'll message you. I'm going [122:23] to purposely do that as well. I always [122:25] control all the variables on my swim. So [122:27] I know exactly, you know, I've got my [122:28] lane, I know the distance, I know the [122:30] water temp, everything. And I'm just [122:31] going to start experimenting with this [122:33] maybe as well. I loved like for me and [122:35] this is a whole other discussion but [122:37] even playing with uh like caffeine on [122:39] the Yukon swim. We were getting into the [122:40] grams towards the end, you know, of the [122:43] swim. And that again, it just enabled me [122:47] to just be so much happier doing such a [122:49] mundane task and looking at the bottom [122:51] of the sea. But if I punch like just [122:53] dark clouds, I'm struggling. My [122:55] shoulders are hurting. 400 milligrams of [122:57] caffeine, 15 minutes later, that life's [122:59] not so bad. This is I'm just ripping [123:01] through the water. Do Do you find that [123:03] that you can almost Yeah, you can [123:05] biohack. You can Yeah. Okay. There are [123:08] stimulants like caffeine that are [123:10] incredibly powerful um in that way. I [123:12] love caffeine. I have a high caffeine [123:14] tolerance. So, I can do that. You know, [123:16] things like nicotine, which I've [123:17] experimented with. The problem I have is [123:19] that it really sets up a very quick [123:22] dependence. [123:23] >> Like, I start to crave it and it's a [123:25] quick up and down for me. Some people [123:27] don't mind that. For me, it's it's not a [123:29] great tool. [123:30] >> Faster than caffeine. So, short half. [123:32] Much faster. And And maybe it's the way [123:34] I'm doing it or the way I metabolize it [123:35] and so on. Occasionally I'll take like a [123:37] a milligram or two in a workout, but [123:39] then I notice I get very tired [123:41] post-workout in a way that I don't if I [123:43] don't take it. So I I prefer to keep [123:45] nicotine as a oral nicotine, you know, [123:47] so not smoking or vaping, dipping or [123:49] snuffing, but you know, like the the the [123:51] lozenes or something or uh as an every [123:53] once in a everyone in a great while tool [123:56] as opposed to an everyday tool. Caffeine [123:57] is an everyday thing, unless I'm [123:59] carrying some sort of like respiratory [124:01] infection or something, which case I'd [124:03] cut it out, which is probably half of [124:04] the misery I experience while on that [124:06] respiratory infection. It just makes it [124:08] so much better when you come back. [124:10] >> Caffeine is a beautiful thing. I I [124:12] [laughter] I I back it and it backs me. [124:15] So, [124:16] >> I agree. Anything else? I think I've [124:18] heard you talk about alpha GPC as well. [124:20] >> Yeah, as a as a milder alternative to uh [124:23] nicotine. The one advantage of alpha GPC [124:26] is it is if you're going to work out [124:27] late in the day [124:28] >> and you [clears throat] need to sleep a [124:29] few hours later, it does have a sort of [124:31] quoteunquote stimulant effect, but it [124:33] actually can increase the amount of REM [124:35] sleep you get as opposed to [124:37] >> mess with your sleep like a lot of [124:39] stimulants. [124:40] >> But if I do it too early in the day, [124:42] >> then I notice I get that late afternoon [124:44] crash. And so it's kind of quick up, [124:45] quick down. I mean, I've played around [124:47] with all the various things. Modafanil [124:49] is too stimulating for me. It keeps me [124:51] up for days. There's some other things [124:53] that seem to work better. There's this [124:55] prescription drug senosci in small [124:56] amounts. But again, these are [124:58] >> it I find that if I use any of these [125:01] regularly besides caffeine, [125:03] >> it creates more problems than solutions. [125:05] So I I keep them as when really needed [125:09] tools. [125:09] >> Yeah. And and some good studies as well [125:11] around, you know, creatine. It's this [125:12] I've become fascinated with this idea of [125:14] almost um discipline and motivation is [125:17] something you can supplement almost if [125:18] you know what to do with the right [125:19] amounts. And I think with creatine, [125:22] there's some good studies with sleep [125:23] deprivation at the moment. Do you back [125:24] those? [125:25] >> The best evidence says that creatine [125:28] puts water in your muscles, makes you [125:30] stronger as a consequence. I've been [125:32] taking it since I was like 17 with the [125:34] occasional wash out of a week or so for [125:36] whatever reason and then and then back [125:38] on it 10 grams a day, you know, for so [125:41] many years now. But in addition to those [125:44] strength increasing effects due to water [125:46] volume in the muscles, at least my [125:47] understanding is that if you're mildly [125:50] or severely sleepd deprived, you can [125:52] partially partially rescue some [125:55] cognitive function and some maybe even [125:57] some physical vigor by taking 10 or even [125:59] 20 grams of creatine the next morning. [126:02] But of course, you need to sleep at some [126:04] point and and it's not a replacement for [126:06] sleep. But yeah, I think creatine is [126:08] great. I I don't think there's evidence [126:09] that it um you know makes hair fall out [126:12] or anything like that. Um and it's [126:14] inexpensive and seems safe. So I don't [126:16] see any reason not to. You take do you [126:17] take it? [126:18] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Although I didn't on [126:19] the the Yukon swim and then the study [126:21] came out. Well, I certainly read it much [126:23] later. And so that's why I'm even [126:25] fascinated now with you know the next um [126:27] non-stop swim. I just I think we can go [126:29] further. you know, we we did [laughter] [126:32] >> 5 510 kilometers and I'm like, "Oh, [126:33] there's things now that I've learned [126:35] that um whether it's the tunnel vision [126:37] as well with 20 milligrams of cat with [126:39] creatine." I think there's there's a bit [126:41] of me that is just fascinated. I like to [126:42] think of myself as like a human guinea [126:44] pig and and now like I said, we didn't [126:46] do creatine on the Yukon. Not to say I [126:48] raw dogged it, but you know, I certainly [126:50] there are things that I could do in [126:52] addition because we mainly did it on on [126:55] caffeine. I think you know alpha GPC [126:57] cognizin as well acetylcholine like I [127:00] think I I I get on really well with [127:01] that. I find it's um a nicer focus not [127:04] just kind of getting all jittery. [127:06] Tyroine elyroine [127:08] >> as a precursor to dopamine hooperine and [127:10] the cononergic pathway. You're clearly [127:13] illustrating a very important point [127:14] which is one that has been hard for me [127:16] to get out into the world because people [127:18] tend to just grab on to whatever is [127:20] going to satisfy their like desire to do [127:23] or feel something. And and here's what I [127:25] mean. I think it's important and [127:27] wonderful to find what one can do with [127:30] just great behaviors, right? Just great [127:33] behaviors. Trying to get the best sleep [127:35] you can. Nutrition, training, social, [127:38] all social connection, sunlight, all the [127:39] things that now are kind of common place [127:42] out there and people know. Then perhaps [127:44] one experiments with caffeine and no [127:46] caffeine. I tried caffeine. I'm never [127:47] going back. Okay. Maybe creatine first [127:51] time in forever. maybe only as a tool to [127:54] use later when you want to level up. I [127:56] mean, figuring out what you can do [127:57] without these supper [128:00] supplements, I think can be very useful. [128:02] And then at some point, and this is also [128:04] true for peeds, right? For just being [128:06] really honest, you know, I've been [128:08] honest about this for years, although [128:09] some people argue I've only been coming [128:12] clean about this recently, but since [128:13] since I started the podcast and I had a [128:16] podcast with Derek from More Plates, [128:17] More Dates, I've said, "Yeah, until age [128:19] 45, I didn't touch any any [128:23] uh exogenous hormones whatsoever." And I [128:25] got to a certain point and felt great, [128:27] but then I wanted to experiment. So, I [128:28] started with what is for me a true micro [128:30] dose plus taking hCG to maintain [128:33] fertility and it's been great and I [128:34] haven't had to increase that dose much. [128:36] I've played around with it a little bit, [128:37] but I found that lower is better for me. [128:39] Okay, to each their own, work with a [128:41] doctor. But when I hear about people [128:44] immediately getting on gear at age 20, [128:47] 30, 40 in the absence of a clinical [128:50] need, [128:51] >> I'm like, you'll never really know what [128:52] you can do without it. you know, setting [128:54] aside drug tested sport where there are [128:56] clear rules and regulations people [128:57] should abide by. Like I just feel like [129:00] to really have confidence in one's [129:02] ability to train to do things, you need [129:05] to figure out what you what you can do [129:07] with just behaviors. [129:09] >> You're pretty heavily muscled. So people [129:12] are going to default to that. [129:13] >> They're going to assume that it came [129:14] about through [129:16] >> gear. And that's just it's an [129:18] unfortunate thing that people do that. [129:19] So you want to talk about that for a [129:21] moment? What's your response to that? [129:22] >> Yeah. Yeah, it's actually we can go [129:24] through my blood work as well. I'd [129:25] actually whether we do it on air or off, [129:27] it would be amazing to get your opinion [129:28] on it. Um, but I think for me, I I'm [129:30] just well aware that I'm a really [129:32] strange swimmer. So, I started swimming [129:35] really early on. I think at the age of [129:37] like 13, 14 at the English Institute of [129:39] Sport, they look at your parents and [129:40] they just sort of go, you're not going [129:43] to grow anymore. You know, [129:44] >> they look at your parents. [129:44] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. [129:45] >> So, they believe in genetics. [129:47] >> For sure. Yeah. My my parents weren't [129:48] very tall. Uh, and I'm 41 now. I'm still [129:51] waiting for my growth spurt. And so they [129:53] were like, "Look, Ross, it's it's not [129:54] going to happen for you as a competitive [129:56] swimmer, competitive pool swimmer." I [129:58] was like, "Okay, fine." So, I ended up [129:59] playing water polo. I played for England [130:01] School Boys. I played internationally. [130:03] Loved that as well because it allowed me [130:05] to use swimming. Uh, but also, not to [130:07] say I like to fight, but it was just it [130:10] was nice that in swimming, if I lost, [130:12] I'd just be like, "Oh, well done. You [130:13] beat me." Whereas in water polo, you can [130:15] do something about it. You can get into [130:16] a fight. You can kind of scratch each [130:18] other with your toenails. I heard they [130:19] do that. [130:20] >> Oh, yeah. I mean famously it was Hungary [130:23] versus the Soviet Union. I want to say [130:26] Melbourne Olympics [130:28] and uh famous uh event. It was called [130:31] Blood in the Water and they were [130:34] basically at war. Drew each other in the [130:37] semi-final and honestly Andrew like some [130:39] of the pictures just people coming out [130:40] covered in blood. The water turned red [130:43] cuz they just went in there. Uh Hungary [130:45] won I believe it was 4-0. Uh but just [130:48] brutal. [130:49] >> Oh, nowadays they'd probably stop it [130:51] because it would um offend people's [130:54] sensibilities. [130:55] >> Yeah, it's I mean it's still bad. It's [130:56] Yeah, but I loved it. Again, that's [130:59] stress inoculation training. But but to [131:00] go back to the examples, then I played [131:02] water polo and I remember I was playing [131:03] for uh England school boys under 18 at [131:05] the age of 13. So I was the wrong side [131:08] of puberty. So I just got beaten up. [131:10] Coach was just like, "Look, you need to [131:11] get bigger, Ross. You need to get [131:12] stronger." So I've been weight training [131:15] since I was 13. And I think um that [131:17] coupled with a period as well where I [131:19] was fortunate so many of my friends [131:21] compete in World's Strongest Man. So I [131:23] went through a period as well of just [131:24] getting crazy strong looking into that. [131:26] I was lifting with the Staltman [131:28] brothers, World's Strongest Brothers, [131:29] Tom Saltman, three times World's [131:30] Strongest Man, Eddie Hall, first guy to [131:33] lift, you know, half a ton, World's [131:34] Strongest Man. So it was really [131:36] interesting how I then went through [131:37] years and years of strength training, [131:39] hypertrophy, but then came back into [131:42] swimming so much later. So, I think that [131:44] is partly why I've got the strange [131:46] physique that I do. And it confuses lots [131:49] of people because they're like, "You're [131:50] not built like I'm swimmer." I'm like, [131:51] "No, no, I'm not, but I'm 41." And if [131:53] you look back over my sporting career, [131:55] my strange resume, there's a reason for [131:58] my strange physique. And so, you do a [132:00] fair amount of strength training. Does [132:02] that mean pure strength? Like training [132:03] in the, you know, one to four rep range, [132:05] not trying to grow your muscles, not [132:08] going to failure, but going close to it, [132:09] lot of volume. This is how I understand [132:11] sort of optimal strength training [132:13] protocols, frequent sessions and so on. [132:15] >> Exactly that as well. And I'm a huge fan [132:17] of Cam Makavoy. So he's the current 50 m [132:20] freestyle world record holder. It was [132:22] London 2012. He was the the golden boy [132:24] of Australian swimming. Didn't quite [132:26] perform how he wanted to. So fell out of [132:28] love with swimming. Then COVID happened [132:31] and he was just like, "Ah, you know, I [132:33] don't think I'm going to go back to [132:34] swimming, but I like calisthenics. I [132:36] like rock climbing." And he started [132:37] doing that. Got really strong as well. [132:39] And now we know there's a direct [132:40] correlation between your one rep max on [132:42] pull-ups and your swim sprint speed as [132:44] well. So Cam now he was drilling [132:47] technique and doing honestly Andrew like [132:49] speed reps with 80 kilos between his [132:52] legs. And he just got crazy strong even [132:54] holding like a front lever as well cuz [132:56] he was like that's kind of the same as [132:58] swimming. So he taught himself this [133:00] basically coming out of COVID. Somebody [133:02] then joked and went ah there's a local [133:04] swim guy like you should you should dust [133:06] off the goggles and the speeders just [133:07] get in and see how good you are. And so [133:09] for a joke he was like, "Ah, look, I'm [133:11] going to turn up and see if I still got [133:12] it." He got in and ripped a personal [133:15] best. Everyone was like, "Oh." So he [133:18] basically completely changed his [133:20] training where there was a huge emphasis [133:22] on strength, speed, and power. Now he's [133:24] a 50 m specialist, recently gone into [133:26] the 100 as well. But I think the one [133:28] thing that I have taken from that is [133:29] that idea of your strength reserve. So [133:32] now I'm drilling my one rep max on [133:34] pull-ups, knowing that as that improves, [133:38] then all of a sudden when I'm swimming, [133:39] swimming almost being a unilateral form [133:41] of a lat pull down with each arm, every [133:44] single stroke and the force that I [133:45] generate is a smaller percentage of what [133:48] I'm capable of because I have a larger [133:50] one rep max on pull-ups as well. Got it. [133:52] One of the best examples of strength [133:54] reserve, I was talking about earlier, [133:55] but but Eddie Hall. So Eddie went into a [133:58] CrossFit competition. I forget the name [134:00] of the word, but there was a record and [134:01] it was basically 60 kilos on the bar. [134:03] When you look at CrossFit as a poetic [134:06] technique, sort of clean to the chest [134:08] and then it was a push press, but [134:10] because Eddie is Eddie Hall and because [134:13] he's so strong, it was more akin to just [134:16] a front delt raise, [laughter] maybe an [134:18] upright row, but he just like picked up [134:20] the bar and just went one, two, just did [134:22] it like that. And again, it was because [134:24] he just had a crazy strength reserve. 60 [134:26] kilos for him was so light because he [134:29] was so strong. So that's the reason I [134:31] still strength train now. It's this idea [134:33] very much inspired by, you know, Eddie [134:35] Hall, Cam Makavoy, the strength reserve. [134:37] When I'm training mechano transduction, [134:39] my connective tissue is really, really [134:40] strong. But also because my one rep max [134:42] on pull-ups is so strong, every single [134:45] stroke is a smaller percentage of what [134:47] I'm capable of. [134:48] >> Interesting. Um, I love to run and I [134:51] love to lift and I find that if I'm [134:52] lifting in sort of middle rep range, so [134:56] six to 12 repetitions, uh, close to or [135:00] to failure, I find that my runs suffer, [135:04] >> um, recovery suffers, but I'm playing [135:07] with the idea that pure strength [135:09] training and endurance training might [135:11] actually fit pretty well together. Is [135:13] that your experience, or am I going to [135:15] am I setting myself up for additional [135:17] frustration? I personally think yes. [135:20] Like absolutely. I I think even when [135:22] you're looking now um at like Michael [135:25] Johnson, can you remember he had that [135:27] amazing running technique, but we now [135:29] understand that even though that was [135:30] potentially shortening his stride, it [135:32] was increasing the amount of force he [135:34] could generate through each foot. And we [135:36] now know that's a greater predictor of [135:37] of speed as well. So I think that's so [135:39] interesting that drilling down into your [135:41] strength. I think one will help you [135:44] generate more force per stroke, but but [135:46] also as well even hold efficient [135:47] biomechanics. I think that's overlooked [135:49] as well. [135:50] >> Yeah. So, I personally think they [135:52] complement each other really well. [135:54] >> How many days a week are you doing? Are [135:56] you lifting [135:56] >> at the moment? Because I'm sort of offse [136:00] uh pretty much like 5 days a week. [136:02] >> Okay. And um are you doing the same [136:04] lifts on multiple days? So, or same [136:06] muscle groups on multiple days. [136:08] >> Quite similar. Yeah. Yeah. So, I'm [136:09] almost trying to do uh like the [136:11] Bulgarian training method, but for [136:14] swimming with with one rep max on [136:16] pull-ups, if that makes sense. So, I I'm [136:18] very aware that the Bulgarian training [136:19] method, you know, they broke more [136:21] champions than they made. You know, they [136:23] were like, you were going to lift heavy [136:24] 365 days of the year, 7 hours a day, you [136:27] know, and they were just breaking kids [136:28] and go, "Right, that one's broken. That [136:30] one's broken." But the one who could [136:32] tolerate it was a world champion, was a [136:35] world record holder. I through so many [136:37] years now I I am quite lucky that I do [136:40] have quite a high work capacity. So work [136:42] capacity your your body's ability to [136:44] perform and positively tolerate training [136:45] of a given intensity or duration. And so [136:47] I just respond really well to just being [136:50] flogged with volume. And so I'm almost [136:52] doing these still long aerobic sessions [136:55] when swimming, but also almost spamming [136:57] it with a Bulgarian inspired training [137:00] method of of strength training as well. [137:01] How long are those workouts in the gym [137:04] from when you walk in until you walk [137:05] out? [137:06] >> The strength session itself can be 45 [137:08] minutes long because it is just pure [137:10] strength. Your body's ability to [137:11] generate force. And even when we're [137:12] doing plyometrics, you don't want to be [137:14] doing a lot. Great friend of mine, [137:15] Lyford Christie, uh, I still believe [137:17] he's the oldest 100 meter champion. Um, [137:20] it took me a while when learning about [137:22] speed and plyometrics because I always [137:24] thought more was better as is my nature. [137:27] And Lymphford would be like, "Go home, [137:29] Ross. you're actually drilling bad [137:31] technique now. You're done. And so in [137:33] very much inspired by that on my [137:35] strength sessions, I'm making sure that [137:37] everything is dialed in and they're [137:38] perfect. They're 45 minutes long. Any [137:40] longer and you're just drilling bad [137:42] technique. You're not actually training [137:43] strength anymore. Certainly not speed [137:45] and power as well. And I think one of [137:47] the biggest things that um I found [137:49] recently as well is is uh supra [137:51] isometric maximal holds as well. So [137:54] before my heavier lifts, let's take [137:56] pull-ups for example. I'm doing about 60 [137:59] kilos at the moment clean. And so what [138:01] I'll do is sometimes put anywhere [138:03] between 80 90 100 kilos on the weight. [138:07] Hold in an active hang only 3 seconds. [138:11] So you're not trying to fatigue [138:12] yourself. You're trying to switch on the [138:13] central nervous system. Neural [138:15] [clears throat] priming. [138:16] >> Then jump down, take off the weight, put [138:18] 60 kilos on, wait 2 minutes. So you're [138:21] not fatigued, you're just switched on. [138:22] And what I found is then when I rip, I [138:24] will just pull through 60 kilos. And [138:26] that's been one of the biggest things [138:27] that I've found has has has really [138:31] helped. And I'm lucky because I can [138:32] train at home. So I'm able to do that. I [138:34] think doing at a commercial gym, they're [138:36] like, "Why has he got all that weight [138:37] and he's dangling and then waiting 2 [138:39] minutes and then doing?" But I'm very [138:40] fortunate that I can do that cuz I can [138:41] train at home. [138:42] >> Yeah. I feel like the the Russians and [138:44] the Eastern Europeans uh certainly were [138:46] aware of the importance of the nervous [138:48] system for training. But I think it's [138:49] only in recent years that people like [138:51] Paul Satsulin and others have really [138:54] brought to the United States and to [138:55] Western Europe and Australia etc. that [138:58] this idea that the neural piece is so [139:01] important. We think strength, we think [139:03] muscles, we might think connective [139:05] tissue, but the neural piece uh being so [139:08] vital. Do you mind if I ask um if your [139:10] split is uh such that on those five [139:14] 45minut um workouts per week right now [139:16] anyway are you doing pull-up work every [139:19] day of those five are you pressing every [139:21] day are you squatting every day so bad I [139:24] do skip leg day I just I just don't need [139:26] them for my swims that I'm doing so [139:28] often I say you know make your body an [139:29] instrument not an ornament and you know [139:31] sometimes people like oh he skips leg [139:32] day I'm like yeah I do I I don't need [139:34] them [139:34] >> but you have you have tree trunk legs so [139:36] you don't you and Dorian I mean [139:38] obviously trained them for years. You've [139:39] trained them before. [139:40] >> Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It's really [139:42] frustrating to those of us that actually [139:44] have to train our our legs, but um any [139:46] direct grip work or not so much. [139:48] >> Yeah. Yeah. And I think also what's [139:49] really important for me is when people [139:51] understand they go, "Oh, so you train [139:54] >> pull-ups 5 days a week." And it's like, [139:56] yeah, but we're changing the stimulus as [139:59] well. So some days it'll be really [140:00] heavy. The goal is to do a a heavy one [140:03] rep max or, you know, two to three rep [140:05] max on pull-ups. That is the goal. And [140:07] then equally the next day we'll do [140:08] medicine ball slams, neural priming, and [140:11] then speed pull-ups for instance. And [140:13] then equally we might do slightly bigger [140:15] volume. So it's never just drilling the [140:18] same thing. You're just playing around [140:19] with the different stimulus. The [140:21] movements, the biomechanics are the [140:22] same, but you're requiring a different [140:24] training stimulus. [140:26] >> I have a question about your significant [140:27] other. It's interesting and wonderful [140:30] that she supports you in these arguably [140:32] somewhat or very much dangerous [140:35] endeavors and you guys have a child [140:38] together so she's vested uh clearly. But [140:41] a friend of mine who is had a very [140:44] high-risisk high consequence uh job for [140:47] many years said that um his wife who's [140:50] been his wife throughout all of that and [140:51] now into the current phase of his life [140:53] which is a lot less high-risisk high [140:55] consequence um said that if she didn't [140:57] have to worry about him she'd have to [140:58] worry about a lot of other things. So I [141:00] you can't answer for her. Uh but I [141:03] wonder whether when you don't have one [141:05] of these dangerous pursuits uh does her [141:08] anxiety tend to subside or does it tend [141:10] to then like wick out to other things [141:12] because the brain I say this for ask for [141:16] multiple reasons because the brain likes [141:18] to if we need to worry we need to worry [141:21] about something and if we need to worry [141:22] about something it's we can't worry [141:24] about a lot of other things. So I could [141:25] imagine it would there's a certain [141:27] advantageous piece to this. I think [141:28] there is and cuz I I love the work of [141:30] Jordan Peterson when he's just like life [141:32] is suffering life is going to be [141:33] horrible so you might as well pick your [141:34] suffering you know with Sisphus pick up [141:36] the boulder do you know what I mean that [141:38] that that I think is is absolutely true [141:42] and I don't I don't want to see that I'm [141:44] you know I'm a pleasant headache for her [141:46] [laughter] but I do think certainly for [141:49] me as well on the swims [141:52] people are like oh you know it sounds [141:53] brutal you know 157 days at sea swimming [141:57] around Great Britain But I'm like, but [141:58] you got to understand, I think I'm [142:00] living like humans were always meant to [142:02] live. Like in that I'm not spiking [142:04] cortisol throughout the entire day. I'm [142:06] not thinking, have I paid the mortgage? [142:08] Have I taxed the car? I've got an email. [142:10] Oh god. You know, none of that. I wake [142:12] up and life is so simple. I just wake up [142:15] and I've got two questions. What is the [142:17] tide doing? And what's for breakfast? [142:18] That is it. And then I get in and every [142:20] 20 minutes someone throws a banana over [142:22] the boat and I eat it. Life is so good. [142:25] So I do think sometimes for me, yeah, [142:27] it's it's really nice. And may maybe [142:29] maybe for Ha as well in that she wakes [142:31] up and just go, "Okay, he's still [142:33] afloat." She looks on the marine tracker [142:35] like when I was going around Iceland cuz [142:36] she couldn't come out to the boat. [142:37] Obviously, she was heavily pregnant. So [142:38] she would just see the on the marine [142:40] tracker that the boat was moving. So [142:41] she'd wake up in the middle of the night [142:42] and go, "Okay, he's moving." And then [142:44] she'd go back to sleep. God bless her. [142:46] God bless her indeed. [142:48] >> [laughter] [142:49] >> So, we've got different spokes on the on [142:53] the wheel of motivation, tenacity, and [142:57] throughput. We've got because I said I [143:00] would. Simply because I said I would. [143:02] We've got for others, in particular, for [143:05] others that you affiliate with strongly [143:07] first. And once that box is checked, you [143:09] can think about the other others. We've [143:12] got in out of love, the pure joy of [143:15] doing the thing. [143:16] >> Yep. Maybe also the love of your your [143:19] people life, you know, we could extend [143:22] that in any way. F you like anger. [143:25] >> Yeah. Yeah. [143:25] >> Because you or they said I couldn't. We [143:29] covered that one. You sometimes hear [143:31] that people can be very motivated to do [143:33] something [143:34] >> because others can't, [143:37] >> right? you you often see this on social [143:40] media in fact and it's a it's a it's a [143:42] very um moving thing to see somebody [143:44] who's you know climbing a mountain [143:46] because their child is sick and they [143:49] just you know running the doing the [143:52] triathlon because somebody is impaired [143:54] in some way and they want to there's [143:57] something there is that one that you've [143:58] touched into I would say that's probably [144:01] >> less so out of the space but it is there [144:04] yeah it is definitely there um that you [144:08] can do it because others can't. That's [144:10] that's the sentiment. Yeah, it is. Yeah. [144:13] [clears throat] I think um on on that [144:16] note, I remember and and maybe this is [144:18] tied to us as well and I I can talk [144:20] about it now without uh getting upset I [144:23] think. Touch words. But my dad, like I [144:24] said, um four or five years ago now when [144:26] we lost him, it was uh stage four [144:29] cancer. So it was um uh melanoma, skin [144:31] melanoma. And I remember he had been [144:36] diagnosed and he was an amazing tennis [144:38] coach. He he basically built tennis [144:39] centers up and down the UK. Uh he taught [144:42] uh wheelchair tennis, uh visually [144:44] impaired tennis. Sometimes he would take [144:45] to the tennis court and blindfold [144:47] himself so he could play visually [144:48] impaired tennis. And when he was [144:52] diagnosed with with cancer, it spread so [144:55] much in his legs um that it was [144:57] basically stopping him from running and [144:59] and and coaching. And I got a phone call [145:03] and they were said, you know, dad's [145:04] dad's fallen over. He's taking a really [145:06] bad fall. Come to the hospital. So I ran [145:07] to the hospital and he was there, blood [145:10] all down his face. I am, you know, [145:12] choking back the tears trying to be [145:13] strong. And I was like, "Dad, what have [145:15] you done?" And he goes, "No, no, don't [145:16] be upset. I won the point." [145:18] >> [laughter] [145:19] >> And I was like, "Right, okay. Amazing." [145:22] An hour later, they then said, "Look, [145:23] I'm so sorry, Richard. The the the [145:26] tumors have spread. Um, you now you [145:28] can't coach. We don't want you out on [145:30] the tennis court on your feet for 12 [145:32] hours a day coaching. You can't." And he [145:35] literally like did not skip a beat. He [145:38] just looked the doctor straight in the [145:39] eye and he just went, "That's not a [145:41] problem at all. We've got a great [145:42] wheelchair tennis coaching system down [145:44] there. I'll just get one of the [145:45] wheelchairs." Wow. [145:46] >> And the very next day just bandaged up [145:48] his tumors and then just took to the [145:50] court and just played and continued to [145:51] coach in a wheelchair. [145:52] >> My goodness. [145:53] >> And I so I think to answer your question [145:55] that having stories and examples and [145:57] mentors and heroes like that, it was [146:00] swimming going there will be a time [146:01] maybe where I'm not able to do this but [146:03] like my dad you will find a way to keep [146:05] going. So I don't I don't know if that's [146:07] one of the spokes, but that that was [146:08] always a really really powerful story [146:11] that I I always take with me, you know, [146:13] that that no matter how bad things are, [146:15] like my dad just took to the tennis [146:17] court just in a wheelchair, just didn't [146:19] skip a beat. [146:20] >> Yeah. So based on what you said and it's [146:22] a beautiful example for those who can't [146:24] is really about gratitude. [146:26] >> It's the beneath that [146:29] >> parenthetically it's [146:31] >> I can and therefore I will. It's like a [146:33] gratitude for what we can do. M [146:36] >> because if uh we're dead, we can't do [146:38] these things. [146:39] >> 100%. Yeah. I love what you said about [146:41] gratitude as well. So, when we did the [146:43] Yukon swim, for instance, the river team [146:45] that we had in the Yukon, basically [146:46] there's a there's a famous uh kayak race [146:48] that goes down the Yukon um Riverquest [146:50] it's called. And I upon hearing about [146:53] this, that's when I reached out to the [146:54] team who do the safety for this [146:56] particular thing. And I said, "Look, if [146:57] you can kayak it, you can swim it, [146:59] right?" And this team, just amazing [147:01] Canadians, were just like, "Yeah, in the [147:03] if you can escape the rapids, the bears, [147:05] the wolves. Yeah, in theory." So anyway, [147:07] I was like, "Right, okay. Let's put [147:09] together a team." They put together a [147:11] team, but they were missing a few boats. [147:12] And there was one guy, Larry, who was [147:14] amazing. He basically turned around and [147:16] said, "Look, um, I'll come, but but you [147:19] can have my boat, but I'm going to be on [147:21] it." And they said, "Look, you are [147:22] terminally ill. This is a terrible idea. [147:25] The doctors have said, you know, you've [147:26] literally got weeks to live." Um, and he [147:29] said, "No, no, no, no. I've I've lived [147:31] on this river for years." He said, "You [147:33] can have my boat, but I'm going to be on [147:34] it. I'm going to be steering the boat." [147:36] So, everyone reluctantly was like, [147:37] "Fine." Again, Larry had weeks to live. [147:40] He then jumped on the boat. I was told [147:42] this story. He's on the boat with his [147:43] son, and for the next 70 hours was [147:45] swimming down the Yukon. I am swimming, [147:47] hurting, shoulders are hurting, [147:49] hypothermia seeping into my bones, [147:51] everything. And every time I look, I [147:53] just see the silhouette of Larry and [147:55] he's just cheering me on, just going, [147:56] "Let's go." And I look over, I was just [147:59] like, oh, like, how can I stop when I [148:01] got Larry out here? We finished the [148:03] swim, broke the record, we celebrated, [148:05] and then it was it was a few we put the [148:08] documentary out on YouTube. Um, his son [148:10] messaged me and was just like, just so [148:11] you're aware, Larry's in in in hospital. [148:14] Uh, every single doctor and nurse has [148:17] been made to watch the documentary on [148:19] YouTube. He's so proud. And I was just [148:21] like, oh, I had tears in my eyes, like a [148:23] lump in my throat, goosebump. I was just [148:25] like that. and they just said you you [148:27] don't know you gave him you know the [148:29] last great adventure of his career um [148:31] and you passed away shortly afterwards [148:33] and again I suppose it's that particular [148:36] spoke that when I was swimming I was [148:38] like you know I'm doing how can I how [148:40] can I stop when Larry's over there and [148:42] like he was he was oh just an absolute [148:45] legend yeah [148:46] >> he's not genetically related to you but [148:48] he becomes of you like you guys are a [148:50] team [148:52] >> and this is like the anyway I don't have [148:54] a like a really well-developed framework [148:56] for this, but I'm going to try and take [148:58] some notes and diagram this and we can [149:00] kick it back and forth after this and [149:02] come up with something [laughter] cuz I [149:03] feel like you're this uh this shining [149:05] example of all these different moments [149:08] of of accessing the different spokes on [149:10] this wheel of resilience. Um I put a big [149:14] question mark on one spoke. Like I kind [149:17] of wonder just for entertainment [149:19] purposes, is there ever a moment where [149:21] like I actually don't know why I'm doing [149:22] this right now, but I'm just going to [149:23] keep going. Like like I don't have an [149:25] answer. Everything is great or [149:27] everything's like just the absurdity of [149:29] it all. Like if you really step back [149:30] like what you do, Ross, with all due [149:33] respect, is pretty absurd. It's absurd. [149:35] You don't have to do it. You could do [149:36] any number of different things, but you [149:38] feel compelled to do it. And it's a [149:39] beautiful, inspiring, and and I'll even [149:43] say an important thing that you do what [149:46] what you in particular do. It really is. [149:49] But do you ever step back and just go [149:50] like I have no idea, but I'm just going [149:53] to keep pedaling here. Do you know I [149:55] love what you said there because um kind [149:58] of I I don't know if this answers your [150:00] question, but you're aware of the myth [150:02] of Seisphus. [150:03] >> Yeah. So, so for those listening who [150:05] don't, so so Copus was one of the the [150:07] cleverest humans to ever exist in [150:08] ancient mythology. Was able to outsmart [150:10] the gods and he even chained up death at [150:12] one point which made the gods really [150:13] angry because basically people were [150:14] fighting wars and there were no no one [150:17] was dying. So there was no souls going [150:18] to the underworld. So Hades was really [150:20] pissed off. Anyway, eventually he dies [150:22] and the gods are just livid. So they're [150:23] like, "Look, we're going to we're going [150:25] to punish you and what we're going to do [150:26] is we're going to make you roll a [150:27] boulder up a hill for eternity and just [150:28] as it gets to the top of the hill, it's [150:30] going to roll back down and you're just [150:31] going to do that for eternity. just this [150:33] like absurd like completely thankless [150:36] task. But then it was Albert Camu the [150:38] philosopher who said he was able to [150:39] outsmart the gods one more time and [150:41] that's if you imagine that Seisphus was [150:44] smiling. And this is the part I love. He [150:46] said because the struggle alone is [150:48] enough to fill a man's heart. And I [150:50] think for me they've even coined the [150:52] phrase that that Seephus was the absurd [150:54] hero. And I I I think for me swimming [150:57] sometimes I'm like this is Seisphus. [150:59] This is my boulder. You know it's not [151:01] going anywhere. But the struggle alone [151:04] is enough to fill a man's heart. Does [151:05] that answer the question as one of the [151:07] spokes? [151:08] >> Perfectly, [laughter] [151:10] right? Sisphus. Swimming Seisphus. [151:14] [laughter] [151:14] >> So, you identify with Seisphus. It makes [151:16] perfect sense. Um, what about your [151:18] animal spirit? Uh, not to get woo here, [151:21] but uh, you smile a lot. I don't know if [151:23] that was always the case. I mean, you've [151:25] you've had some dark moments in your [151:27] life. [151:27] >> Oh, for sure. Yeah. I just I I think I [151:30] love what you said earlier, although [151:32] it's made me rethink it with the studies [151:33] that you mentioned, but I just think you [151:35] know the science of a smile. There was [151:36] one particular study where they had [151:38] cyclists cycle to complete exhaustion [151:40] and then they showed them these cues and [151:41] they were almost sub subliminal as well [151:43] because they were so quick of people [151:45] smiling or frowning. [151:46] >> I'm not familiar with that study. [151:47] >> And they they basically found that those [151:49] who were shown people of of pictures of [151:51] people smiling were able to go to [151:52] exhaustion so much longer. So, I think [151:54] upon hearing that, you know, I was like, [151:56] I try to swim with a smile as much as [151:58] possible because otherwise I just find [152:01] it's just like I said, I think Chris [152:03] Williamson, you know, a mutual friend of [152:04] ours, like he he said it best because [152:06] I'm a huge fan of Gogggins and I've [152:08] heard his stuff and I've tried it. So, [152:10] when I'm swimming, I'm like, ah, you're [152:12] a little [ __ ] Ross. You know, man up, [152:15] what you doing? But after like 114 days, [152:18] I'm like, oh, [laughter] don't be so [152:20] mean. So, I've tried and Chris [152:23] Williamson said it's almost like, you [152:24] know, what are you putting in your car? [152:26] Both work. Is it diesel or is it petrol? [152:28] Which one? And so, I've tried that and I [152:31] still do use some of that goggines [152:34] motivation, but but sometimes I just [152:36] need something that's a bit gentler. [152:39] >> Yeah, I've known David a while. I don't [152:41] know him very well, but I've known him [152:42] since before his book, the first book. [152:45] And so, I can tell you he's always been [152:46] exactly the same outwardly. very kind, [152:50] unbelievably driven. You know, he sat in [152:52] that very chair and [152:54] >> you know, he shared a bit of what his [152:56] inner process is, but you know, it's a [152:58] it's a bit of a mystery what drives him [153:00] internally or anyone for that matter in [153:02] the moment to moment, right? But clearly [153:04] the [153:05] >> uh he talked about the [ __ ] me, but also [153:08] the [ __ ] you being a a powerful tool. Uh [153:10] Dorian Yates talked about [ __ ] you [153:12] motivation being powerful and um he's in [153:14] a very different place in his life now. [153:16] But [153:17] >> that's a great example when they talked [153:19] about he was saying and and I know he's [153:20] a great friend of yours so please [153:21] correct me if I'm wrong here but it was [153:23] certainly during the period was it like [153:24] the 1980s 1990s when it was gold's beach [153:28] stringed vests sunglasses on and these [153:30] bodys whereas he was in Birmingham [153:32] trudging through the snow and he was [153:34] just like oh if I've got to do this I'm [153:36] going to make sure that I win. Is is [153:37] that the case? There was that. I don't [153:39] want to speak for him. There was that. [153:41] But but I think he learned to tap into [153:43] it um much earlier. I mean, he he had a [153:45] a less than perfect childhood, so to [153:48] speak. I mean, his dad died early. He [153:49] had uh ended up in a youth detention [153:51] center, wrong place, wrong time kind of [153:53] thing. And he was like, I don't want to [153:55] be like the rest of the people in here [153:56] who seem to accept this fate. [153:59] >> Um and he had a big, you know, strong [154:01] like, [ __ ] you [154:02] >> energy to people who told him he wasn't [154:04] going to be anything. just the whole [154:05] notion of these oppressive forces, real [154:08] or imagined, it sounds like they were [154:10] very real in many cases. Um, and he just [154:12] decided like that's the fuel and he, you [154:16] know, became a six-time Mr. Olympia and [154:17] and and equally importantly a happy [154:20] person post Olympia, mobile and healthy [154:23] and all the rest. He's a wonderful [154:26] person and [154:27] >> almost two different people. When you [154:28] look at is it blood and guts is DVD? The [154:31] amount of times I used to watch that [154:32] before I went training. Oh my god, his [154:35] training partners, the intensity, it [154:37] was, you know, it was anim animalistic. [154:39] It was incredible, you know, but but now [154:41] he is [154:42] >> almost like a shaman. He's just like [154:44] spiritually like it's just amazing [154:45] seeing the two different people. [154:47] >> He's definitely got it in balance. I [154:48] will tell you, he's still got some [ __ ] [154:50] you energy. Oh yeah. Yeah. You just need [154:51] to [laughter] hit the right topic. [154:54] He's still got it. He's still got it. [154:56] Believe me, it's still very alive in [154:58] him. [154:59] Sometimes it's like what makes a great [155:00] champion can make a bad human, you know? [155:03] And I say that sometimes with some of my [155:04] swims. I'm like, look, I I know it's bad [155:06] for my health, but it's good for my [155:08] soul. And I think sometimes as well, but [155:10] looking at some champions, I think it [155:12] was Brendan Shaw when he was talking [155:13] about Jon Jones, and he was just like, [155:15] Jon Jones is incredible. Like, he's [155:17] unbelievable, but there's not enough [155:20] money to fill that void, you know, in in [155:22] his life. But but that also driven to to [155:25] greatness. It's so strange, isn't it? [155:27] >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean I don't know John and [155:29] I not famili I'm not that um versed in [155:31] in MMA but certainly Dorian has [155:34] >> the past victories plus life imbalance. [155:38] It really it's it's a felt thing. It's [155:39] not just a spoken thing. It's really a [155:41] felt thing and I've spent a decent [155:42] amount of time with him and in the [155:44] context of his everyday life and he's [155:46] he's definitely winning the whole [155:48] picture as they say and he works at it. [155:50] He works at it's not like a default, [155:52] right? [155:53] resisting negative forces and still [155:55] keeping some [ __ ] you energy in there. [155:58] >> Yeah. You know, I grew up in the South [155:59] Bay where is like every, you know, it [156:01] was like Stanford's right there and [156:03] Silicon Valley is right there and you [156:05] see this in the in the realm of um, you [156:07] know, science, entrepreneurship, [156:08] technology. You see it in every domain. [156:10] >> You see it in every domain. You see it [156:12] in dance. We had Twilight Tharp on here, [156:15] the great choreographer. You see it that [156:17] you she'll tell you stories of people [156:19] that were incredible dancers and not [156:21] balanced as humans. You'll see people [156:23] who are both and you'll see the people [156:25] who quit because it was just too hard [156:26] and they wanted balance. [156:28] >> It's like uh you you smile a lot. Well, [156:31] what's your spirit animal, man? [156:33] >> Or do you have five of them? Let's do [156:35] this. I like this game. I like this [156:36] game. I'm not into astrology, but I like [156:38] this game. If you're willing, what [156:40] aerial, terrestrial, and aquatic animal [156:44] do you do you do you just like and [156:46] admire? You don't have to be like them. [156:48] Don't worry. If you say you like the [156:49] minnow, it's okay. You know, we No one's [156:52] going to think you less the man no [156:54] matter what the answer. [156:55] >> People often say I'm like a Labrador on [156:58] amphetamans. [laughter] [156:59] So that that [157:00] >> you do seem very cheerful. Okay. So [157:02] that's your terrestrial land. Well, [157:03] let's just say the Labrador. You don't [157:04] need the amphetamines. [157:05] >> Yeah. Yeah. I think uh orcas, especially [157:08] when I bulk up for a swim, cuz orcas are [157:10] so big and chunky, but also mildly [157:13] athletic as well. [157:14] >> So, an orca in the water [157:16] >> and in the air. [157:18] >> Oh, that's a great one. [157:22] I I [157:24] think crows are misunderstood. And [157:26] again, ancient Nordic mythology. When [157:28] Faky found Iceland as well using crows, [157:31] he would send them off and then all of a [157:33] sudden if they came back, there was no [157:34] land. He'd send another crow off. It [157:36] came back. There was no land. Sent [157:37] another one. It doesn't come back. [157:38] There's land that way. The crows. Yeah. [157:41] Beautiful. These these are great [157:42] examples. And and that the speed of your [157:44] response tells me that this is true. I I [157:46] often think about this with people in my [157:48] life. I need to spend a lot of time with [157:50] them before I I go that's their [157:52] terrestrial animal. And and and always [157:55] always always people want to know. And [157:58] if it's an animal that they don't want [158:00] to look like [158:01] >> for whatever reason or that isn't like [158:03] tough enough if they're a guy or, you [158:05] know, graceful enough if they're a woman [158:07] is often the the response, then they're [158:09] like, "Oh, no. I wanted to be like a [158:10] damsel [laughter] fish." And I'm like, [158:11] "No, but but don't you understand like [158:14] the parrot fish?" And they're like, "I [158:15] look like a parrot." I'm like, "No, you [158:16] have you ever seen the parrot, you [158:18] know?" So, you can you can really get [158:19] yourself into trouble with this one. So, [158:20] always best to let them answer. I think [158:22] you're spot on. And I I do claim [158:24] authority on this. I've been doing this [158:26] since I was a kid. So, [laughter] [158:28] Ross Edgely, you are a remarkable human [158:31] for certainly the physical feats that [158:34] you've accomplished. I will ask you in a [158:36] moment what's next, but equally [158:39] important for the teachings that you [158:42] provide the world. Not just by example, [158:43] but you you're a real intellectual. An [158:45] intellectual is by definition someone [158:48] who can parse and communicate things at [158:51] multiple levels of granularity. [158:53] That's an intellectual. You're an [158:55] intellectual. love your um your command [158:58] of literature and philosophy and and [159:00] just ideas and the natural world and the [159:02] brain. I I mean this is I will go on [159:05] record saying this is one of the most [159:06] delightful and um awesome for me [159:09] conversations I've ever had on this [159:11] podcast because you are so full of life. [159:13] No surprise there. You are like [159:15] mitochondria in action and it's [159:17] infectious. [laughter] And I drank a [159:19] little caffeine here and this morning, [159:21] but man, like [ __ ] caffeine nicotine. [159:25] Get yourself some Ross Edgely people. [159:27] And um and here today you've given us [159:30] that. I this is a conversation I'm going [159:31] to return to many times over and I'd [159:33] love to um roll out the the uh the [159:37] opportunity to maybe like [159:39] >> create some visuals. We've never done [159:41] this before, but create some visuals [159:43] that maybe could accompany some of the [159:45] social posts and and on the podcast [159:47] because it like you you get the credit [159:49] for doing all these things, but I really [159:51] appreciate your abil ability and [159:53] willingness to kind of like meet in the [159:54] middle on these things and uh and then [159:56] run with these ideas. You are one hell [159:58] of a human being. God bless your [160:00] parents. God bless your wife, Esther. [160:02] Your son's a lucky kid. And uh and I'm [160:05] guessing that he moves a lot and and uh [160:08] and the the future is bright. Uh what's [160:11] next? What are you going to do and not [160:13] swim in the Amazon? [laughter] [160:15] >> Yeah. So for those listening, we've been [160:17] we've been talking about various other [160:18] swims. I was running them by Andrew and [160:20] we've identified [160:22] I believe we called it dick eating [160:24] bacteria. [160:25] >> No. So these bacteria go in through the [160:27] urethra. So that's the the entry point [160:30] and then they live. No, they're not [160:32] bacteria. They're parasites and they [160:33] live [160:34] and they'll eat your nervous system and [160:35] every one of your organs. Please don't [160:37] do a swim down the Amazon. Paul Rosalie [160:40] is going to kill me for saying this. [160:41] Sorry, Paul. He's not going. [laughter] [160:43] He's not going. [160:44] >> Pen penis eating parasite. [160:46] >> Yeah, the penis will go first, but then [160:47] all the rest and you won't be sitting [160:49] there stoic with mud on your face. [160:50] [laughter] You'll be wondering why the [160:52] heck you did this and apologizing to [160:54] everybody. [clears throat] [160:55] >> We've got we've got a few. I think it's [160:57] so interesting. I'm almost like a a [160:59] mercenary, a hired mercenary for an [161:01] amazing cause. So, so we've got so many [161:03] different swims all over the world and [161:05] as soon as somebody says we need to [161:07] raise awareness, ocean conservation, [161:09] raise money, then I'm like, look, hold [161:11] my beer. I know a guy. So, so I think, [161:13] you know, you'll be the first to know. [161:14] But we got a few a few different ones [161:17] and as soon as they say let's go, then [161:19] then I put my goggles on, you know, load [161:21] up on caffeine and we're going to go and [161:22] do it. [161:23] >> I love it. Well, we had uh Greek [161:25] mythology and now we've got Ross Edgely. [161:28] So, thanks for expanding my [161:30] consciousness and uh awareness of what's [161:32] possible. [161:33] You're the man, Ross. Come back. [161:35] >> Thank you so much. This has been [161:36] awesome. Thank you. Thank you. [161:38] >> Thank you for joining me for today's [161:39] discussion with Ross Edgley to learn [161:41] more about him and to find a link to his [161:43] new book, How to Hero, Find Strength, [161:45] Forge Resilience, and Fulfill Your [161:47] Purpose. Please see the links in the [161:48] show note caption. If you're learning [161:50] from and or enjoying this podcast, [161:52] please subscribe to our YouTube channel. [161:53] That's a terrific zerocost way to [161:55] support us. In addition, please follow [161:57] the podcast by clicking the follow [161:59] button on both Spotify and Apple. And on [162:01] both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us [162:03] up to a five-star review. 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