## Detailed walkthrough
### [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zu1jqRlmHg&t=0s) Ancient Chili, Crab in Orange, and Shifting Palates
The discussion opens with an exploration of how Chinese tastes and culinary ingredients have radically transformed across centuries. Chen Xiaoqing introduces an ingredient native to Chaoshan, Taiwan, and southern Fujian known as "Bird Won't Stand" (niao bu ta / Chinese prickly ash), which appears in everyday dishes like scrambled eggs or pork trotters stewed with it—a personal favorite of Ma Ying-jeou. He explains that this pungent, spiky herb served as China’s ancient surrogate for chili pepper prior to the introduction of New World nightshades, representing the closest historical precursor to modern spiciness. This historical reality undermines the romantic notion that traditional Chinese palates have remained unchanged over millennia. Just as modern palates would barely recognize the foods of antiquity, tastes will inevitably evolve in ways currently unimaginable.
The panel reflects on how culinary fashion and seasoning have evolved in lockstep with trade and technology. In the Song Dynasty, elite dining prized dishes like "Crab in Orange" (xie niang cheng)—crab meat seasoned and steamed directly inside an excavated orange hull—which was considered the height of exotic luxury because citrus presentation was novel at the time. Dou Wentao and the guests point out that the pantry of seasonings modern cooks take for granted is remarkably recent; ancient China had no pre-mixed thirteen-spice blends, just as ancient India had no curry powders. Dou Wentao jokingly pushes the trajectory of taste into the future, remarking, “So, who knows, maybe in 100 years, we'll be roasting aliens.”
- **"Bird Won't Stand" (鸟不踏)**: A prickly wild plant traditionally utilized in Taiwanese, Chaoshan, and Minnan cooking to impart a peppery, spicy heat long before modern capsicum varieties arrived in China.
- **Crab in Orange (蟹酿橙)**: A celebrated Song Dynasty banquet dish documenting the long history of fruit-infused savory cooking in high-end Chinese gastronomy.
---
[01:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zu1jqRlmHg&t=74s) The Economics of Addiction: Salt, Sugar, and Stimulants
The panel transitions from flavor profiles to the political economy of appetite, prompted by David Courtwright's historical study *Forces of Habit: 500 Years of Addiction*. Ma Weidu points out that throughout human history, commodified substances capable of inducing habitual dependency have generated immense global wealth and established dynastic fortunes. Long before tech monopolies, the world's most powerful economic titans were the "Sugar Kings" of the plantation economy and the salt monopoly merchants of imperial China, who accumulated vast regional fortunes despite salt appearing to be an ordinary, low-margin staple that a household buys only once every several months.
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: Spectrum of Ingested Substances
accDescr: Classification of consumed goods from necessary survival food to harmful addictive drugs, with stimulants in between.
subgraph Survival ["Essential for Survival"]
Food["Food / Nutrition"]
Salt["Salt (Lower Threshold)"]
end
subgraph Middle ["Stimulants & Cravings"]
Sugar["Sugar"]
Chili["Chili Peppers (Behavioral Dependence)"]
Tobacco["Tobacco (Upper Legal Limit in China)"]
end
subgraph Narcotic ["Physical Dependence / No Health Benefit"]
Drugs["Controlled Narcotics / Illicit Drugs"]
end
Food --> Salt
Salt --> Sugar
Sugar --> Chili
Chili --> Tobacco
Tobacco --> Drugs
```
Ma Weidu breaks down human intake into a strict three-tier taxonomy: substances required for biological survival are called "food"; substances that foster physical and psychological dependence without offering health benefits are classified as "drugs"; and the expansive gray zone in between constitutes "stimulants." In China, the legal threshold for stimulants tops out at tobacco, beyond which lies the realm of illicit narcotics, whereas other jurisdictions have begun regulating substances like cannabis. At the foundational boundary where food meets stimulant sit salt and sugar, closely flanked by spicy foods like chili peppers. While chili is botanically a food, it triggers real neurological cravings; habitual eaters who are deprived of spice for just three days experience genuine distress and mild withdrawal symptoms. As Ma Weidu explains, referencing historical works on salt monopolies and colonialism, “Humans are like this: things that are essential for survival are called food. Things that create physical and mental dependence but provide no health benefits are called drugs. The middle ground is called stimulants.”
- **Salt Merchants**: Historical monopolists who controlled imperial supply chains and tax receipts, transforming an everyday preservative into one of the world's earliest state-backed fortunes.
- **Chili Dependency**: Capable of stimulating endorphin release and habit-forming dietary patterns, producing withdrawal-like cravings when abruptly cut off.
---
[03:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zu1jqRlmHg&t=182s) Fragrance vs. Stench: The Volatile Chemistry of Odor and Taste
The conversation turns to sensory mechanics and the cultural dividing line between fragrant scents and repulsive stenches. Dou Wentao contrasts French and Chinese dining experiences, observing that Western fine dining often emphasizes an aromatic halo that appeals directly to the nose, whereas Chinese cooking—such as bubbling hot pot—often focuses directly on taste, texture, and deep oral satisfaction. Chen Xiaoqing pushes back on this binary, noting that Chinese chefs routinely incorporate complex aromatic spices, but choose to bury them deeply within braises and stocks rather than layering them superficially on top. Moreover, traditional Chinese cuisine frequently challenges the nose with polarizing fermentations like Anhui's iconic stinky mandarin fish (*chou guiyu*), which smells pungent to outsiders but tastes intensely fragrant and savory to converts.
Ma Weidu emphasizes that human perceptions of fragrance and stench are chemically two sides of the same coin, governed by volatile plant oils and aroma compounds like indole. High concentrations of the same compound that gives roses their floral fragrance smell indistinguishable from human feces when concentrated tenfold or ten-thousandfold. To illustrate the extreme potency of food odors, Ma Weidu shares an anecdote from his youth during the Down to the Countryside Movement, recalling how mischievous educated youth (*zhiqing*) would take breakfast stinky tofu that cost three cents, sneak into the dorms, and rub the unfinished pieces directly into the rough grain of wooden bed frames. The odor soaked deep into the wood and lingered for an entire month, baffling anyone who walked through the door. Chen Xiaoqing adds that regional delicacies like fermented amaranth stems (*chou xiangcai geng*) and stinky winter melon push this boundary even further. As Ma Weidu summarizes the sensory science, “Fragrance and stench shouldn't be distinguished so clearly; it’s just a type of flavor. If you're used to it, it’s fine; if you're not, you just feel it's...”
- **Volatile Plant Oils**: The biochemical basis of controversial ingredients like Chinese toon (*xiangchun*), fresh coriander, and fish mint (*zheergen*).
- **Indole Effect**: The olfactory phenomenon where a dilute compound registers as a delicate floral perfume (such as rose or jasmine), but smells like raw fecal matter when heavily concentrated.
- **Fermented Amaranth Stems (臭苋菜梗)**: A Shaoxing specialty fermented in traditional brine crocks, widely regarded as one of the most intensely pungent fermented vegetables in Chinese cuisine.
---
[06:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zu1jqRlmHg&t=392s) The Evolution and Cultural Roots of Chinese Hot Pot
The table shifts to the history and regional varieties of Chinese hot pot. Chen Xiaoqing reminisces about the traditional banquet pots of his native Anhui and the Central Plains, notably the Huizhou "Yipin Pot" (一品锅), famously associated with figures like Li Hongzhang. Unlike interactive tabletop dipping pots, these traditional communal pots were meticulously assembled beforehand in stratified layers—featuring fried tofu, fresh tofu, sliced mutton, egg dumplings, and seasonal vegetables neatly arranged for celebratory family reunions. The panel notes the conventional ranking of China’s three great hot pot schools: the fiery, tallow-heavy hot pots of Sichuan and Chongqing; the brass-pot instant-boiled mutton (*shuan yangrou*) of Beijing and the North; and the fresh seafood *dabianlu* or smooth rice congee hot pots of Guangdong.
Asked to name his ultimate personal favorite, Chen Xiaoqing chooses Chongqing hot pot because of its genuine working-class accessibility and historical roots. Unlike Northern instant-boiled mutton, which relies on cuts of meat that were historically expensive, Chongqing hot pot originated barely a century ago along the Yangtze and Jialing river docks. Poor dock laborers who could not afford prime cuts bought discarded animal offal from slaughterhouses and simmered the scraps in boiling cauldrons of chili, tallow, and peppercorns right by the riverbank. This birthed pricing formats like "one-to-three" (one yuan for vegetable dishes, three yuan for offal and meat) and later "four-to-two." Chen Xiaoqing points to delicacies like *huanghou* (beef or pork aorta) as prime examples of Chinese culinary ingenuity, where discarded slaughterhouse refuse is meticulously peeled layer by layer until only the crisp, crunchy inner vessel wall remains. Praising this resourcefulness, Chen Xiaoqing observes, “The wisdom of the Chinese lies exactly in this: they can turn things nobody wants into something people love.”
- **Huizhou Yipin Pot (徽州一品锅)**: A layered, pre-assembled celebratory hot pot combining dried bean curd, pork belly, egg dumplings, and broths, popularized outside Anhui by Hu Shi and historical ties to Li Hongzhang.
- **Chongqing Dock Origins**: Born out of industrial poverty along the river wharves, where offal was masked by tallow, chili, and Sichuan pepper.
- **Huanghou (黄喉)**: Pig or cattle large blood vessels (aorta) that must be laboriously stripped of tough outer membranes to yield a tender, snap-crisp dipping delicacy.
[28:49](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zu1jqRlmHg&t=1729s) The Chongqing Nine-Grid Hot Pot and the Logic of "Old Broth"
The conversation opens with an anecdote recounting the overwhelming sensory experience of eating authentic street-level hot pot in Chongqing for the very first time. In those bustling open-air or roadside stalls, patrons casually stripped off their shirts in the sweltering heat, completely indifferent to social standing or etiquette. The table was partitioned into a grid—ostensibly a nine-grid pot, though it functioned with eight open sections—and diners were seated directly across from strangers. Trying desperately to remain a polite "gentleman," the speaker refused to strip off his shirt, even as sweat drenched his clothes from the intense chili heat. The practical chaos of the grid system soon revealed itself: while the surface was neatly partitioned into individual quadrants, the broth underneath flowed freely across the entire pot. After dropping his food into his designated section, he looked down only to find it had floated away to an adjacent grid, where the stranger sitting beside him nonchalantly fished it out and ate it. Paralyzed by embarrassment and unfamiliarity, he watched in silence. With tears streaming down his face and his nose running uncontrollably from the blazing chili and thick layer of beef tallow—without any milder "yin-yang" split broth to offer relief—he realized that hot pot dining here was an unrelenting communal immersion.
The guests then examine the culinary mechanics separating Chongqing and Chengdu hot pots, noting that Chongqing relies strictly on rich beef tallow, whereas Chengdu is traditionally associated with clear vegetable oil. This leads directly into a debate over the practice of using recycled "old broth" (*lao tang* or *lao you*), where the cooking base is filtered, reheated day after day, and kept perpetual. While an uninitiated outsider might feel squeamish, the scientific reasoning behind century-old broths is sound: complex flavor molecules continuously break down and recombine under prolonged, repeated heating, producing a depth of savory umami that a brand-new, freshly boiled pot simply cannot match. Arriving half an hour after a clear-broth hot pot shop opens is often recommended, because the pot only reaches peak fragrance after ingredients have simmered and released their essences over time. Dou Wentao humorously captures the less romantic side of this concept, asking: “So, drinking someone else's bathwater tastes better, is that it?”
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: Flavor Profiles and Ingredient Philosophies in Regional Hot Pots
accDescr: Diagram contrasting Sichuan and Chongqing hot pot with Cantonese and Chaoshan styles.
subgraph GD["Chaoshan & Cantonese Style"]
GD1["Clear Water or Light Broth Base"]
GD2["Preserves Natural Essence of Raw Ingredients"]
GD3["Precision Beef Cuts: Chibi, Chiren, Brisket"]
GD1 --> GD3
GD2 --> GD3
end
```
[31:05](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zu1jqRlmHg&t=1865s) Flavor Masks vs. Ingredient Purity: From Offal to Chaoshan Beef
The table shifts focus to the stark contrast between northern/southwestern hot pot philosophies and the culinary ethos of the south, particularly Cantonese and Chaoshan traditions. In Hong Kong and Guangdong, diners prioritize pristine freshness, often opting for clear water broths that allow the natural, unadulterated flavor of prime ingredients to shine through. By contrast, the fiery broths of Sichuan and Chongqing are designed to transform and overpower. The staple ingredients favored along the Yangtze riverbanks—such as beef tripe, duck blood, and pig brains—are internal organs that possess an unappealing gamey odor and uninspiring texture when boiled plain. Only when plunged into an intensely spiced, boiling bath of chili and beef tallow do these cuts become delicacies.
Chaoshan beef hot pot occupies an entirely different plane of fastidious precision. Unlike indiscriminate communal pots, Chaoshan dining treats the carcass with surgical care, selecting only a tiny percentage of the animal that is tender enough for rapid scalding. Toughened cuts that demand slow braising or contain excessive gristle are excluded from the hot pot table altogether. Diners savor thinly sliced, highly specific anatomical cuts such as *chibi*, *chiren*, and three-flower or five-flower brisket (*sanhuazhi* and *wuhuazhi*). The speakers emphasize that this reverence for cut-specific texture reflects the exacting standards of Chaoshan cuisine, where every strip of beef is sliced to order to achieve the perfect balance of tenderness and snap within seconds of hitting the water.
[32:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zu1jqRlmHg&t=1935s) Beijing Instant-Boiled Mutton and the Barbarism of the Communal Table
The conversation turns north to Beijing's classic instant-boiled mutton (*shuan yangrou*), beginning with a humorous dispute between culinary critics over proper dining etiquette. A visiting Hong Kong food critic sought advice in Beijing and was instructed by Mr. Hou Lin that genuine instant-boiled mutton requires dumping an entire plate of sliced meat into the copper chimney pot at once, waiting for it to change color, and scooping it out in generous heaps. Baffled by this heavy-handed method, the visitor consulted another local critic, asking whether refined dining did not dictate dipping each slice delicately one by one. The second critic dismissed the delicate approach entirely, declaring: “That’s only because you're too poor to boil them one by one.” He asserted that true connoisseurship in traditional elite households was defined by bounty, noting that wealthy patrons never had the patience to dither with single strips of meat.
This leads to a broader cultural reflection on how communal dining evolved in China. Historically, communal pot dining was introduced from northern nomadic traditions rather than ancient Han court culture. Ancient Chinese dining before the Song Dynasty was strictly individual (*fencan zhi*), where each diner sat before their own low table, much like the legendary layout of the Feast at Hong Gate (*Hongmen Yan*). The transition from separate tables to shared round tables was, from an ancient classical viewpoint, a regression toward barbaric informality. Dou Wentao jokes about modern Beijing restaurants that attempt to revive ancient individual dining, where diners sit separated across vast distances and have to shout across the hall just to ask how each other's food tastes, leaving patrons feeling as though they have stepped into a historical film about Liu Bang and Xiang Yu.
```mermaid
flowchart LR
accTitle: Evolution of Chinese Dining Formats
accDescr: Historical progression from ancient individual dining to modern communal hot pots.
subgraph Modern["Post-Song to Modern Dining"]
M1["Communal Round Tables (Hecan Zhi)"]
M2["Nomadic Influence & Shared Copper Pots"]
M3["Mass-Scale Boiled Meats & Street Culture"]
end
Ancient -->|"Cultural Integration & Nomadic Influence"| Modern
```
- In pre-Song Dynasty banquets, each guest sat at their own separate low table or stone plinth, eating their own distinct portion rather than sharing from a central vessel.
- Hand-sliced mutton in old Beijing was never frozen or passed through mechanical slicers; young apprentices carved semi-soft, freshly slaughtered meat on courtyard cutting boards in sub-zero winter temperatures.
- In periods of scarcity, ordinary families could only afford twenty cents worth of mutton, cutting tiny scraps that made wholesale boiling impossible.
- During the 1980s, rising prosperity allowed patrons to order prodigiously: Ma Weidu recalls dining with author Wang Shuo and friends, ordering two pounds of solid mutton per person—twenty pounds across a single table of ten—and finishing every bite without difficulty due to mutton's easy digestibility compared to pork.
[35:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zu1jqRlmHg&t=2140s) The Ancient Bronze "Ran" and the Origin of "Ranzhi"
The discussion circles back to archaeological evidence of individual hot pots in antiquity. In the National Museum of China, artifacts reveal that individual hot pots existed as early as the Han Dynasty in the form of a bronze vessel known as a *ran* (染). This three-tiered contraption consisted of a fuel burner at the base, a charcoal or flame chamber in the middle, and an ear-cup (*erbei*) shaped vessel at the top. Rather than boiling unseasoned water or broth and dipping cooked items into sauce afterward, Han Dynasty diners poured thick seasoned sauce directly into the upper cup, heated it over the flame, and immersed raw meat into the simmering condiment to cook it. This act of dipping raw meat directly into a personal heated sauce vessel was the original meaning of the word *ran*.
Because banqueting was conducted on individual tables, reaching across to interfere with someone else's meal was a severe social transgression. If a distracted diner looked away, an impudent neighbor might reach over and plunge their fingers into the boiling vessel to snatch a piece of cooking meat. This specific, vulgar intrusion gave birth to the enduring Chinese idiom *ranzhi* (染指, literally "soiling/dipping one's fingers"), which originally denoted improperly snatching food from another person's pot before evolving into a metaphor for political usurpation, illicit meddling, and sexual harassment.
Illustrating how this brazen habit survives in local subcultures, a guest recounts visiting an eccentric hot pot tavern called Dongzikou, situated inside an old Chongqing air-raid shelter and run by an artist. When customers complained that the soup base lacked depth or richness, the owner would stride over, fan in hand, and deliberately dip his bare fingers into the boiling, bubbling cauldron to taste the broth on the spot. While shocking to uninitiated guests, this fearless heat tolerance demonstrated an intimate, streetwise authenticity that signaled the proprietor treated no one as an outsider.
- The bronze *ran* from the Han Dynasty combines a small heating hearth, an intermediate furnace, and an ear-cup reservoir where seasoned sauce was simmered directly.
- The idiom *ranzhi* originated from guests inappropriately thrusting their fingers into another diner's *ran* vessel to steal meat.
- Veteran hot pot cooks and street restaurateurs often developed extreme heat tolerance, handling glowing coals and dipping fingers into boiling broths without flinching.
[38:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zu1jqRlmHg&t=2288s) The Unfiltered Charm and Surprises of Global Wet Markets
Browsing through traditional wet markets exposes shoppers to ingredients and culinary practices they would never encounter in standard grocery stores. The vendors themselves carry deep, eccentric product knowledge—such as offering someone a taste of what looks like a tomato, only to reveal it is actually a potato. Beyond unusual produce, markets around the world highlight unique regional delicacies. In Seville, Spain, for instance, an entire stall is devoted exclusively to selling rabbit heads. When Chinese visitors look at them, they immediately draw comparisons to the rabbit heads eaten in Shaanxi. The vendor proudly explains the nuances of their origins, showing that even within a single, highly specialized ingredient, profound differences exist that ordinary supermarket shoppers would never see.
- In a Seville market stall, only rabbit heads are sold, prompting direct comparisons to similar culinary traditions in Shaanxi.
- Vendors often introduce rare variants of everyday produce by offering immediate tastes to prospective buyers.
---
[38:59](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zu1jqRlmHg&t=2339s) Urban Renewal, Nostalgia, and the Beitou Braised Pork Rice
Despite their cultural richness, traditional wet markets are gradually vanishing worldwide due to modernization and urban renewal. Even world-renowned institutions face relocation, such as Tokyo’s Tsukiji Market being moved over two kilometers away in the lead-up to the Olympics. While critics often complain about hygiene, messiness, and chaos in domestic Chinese markets, urban lifestyle habits improve incrementally, and demanding instantaneous, sterile perfection overlooks the natural pace of change. As highlighted by the Netflix documentary series *Street Food*, these street stalls and neighborhood markets may not survive for long. In cities like Xiamen and Hong Kong, rapid redevelopment constantly pushes out long-standing stalls, markets, and open-air *dai pai dongs*.
This precarity evokes deep nostalgia for legendary neighborhood eats, such as a famed braised pork rice stall situated on the second floor of Taipei’s Beitou Market. The stall was notorious for operating only three hours a day and selling out immediately, with the cooks packing up and leaving as soon as the batch was finished. When Chen Xiaoqing filmed a Taiwanese mother preparing braised pork rice in Dongguan, the sight of the pork and pickled mustard greens on the monitor instantly brought back the taste and memory of that Beitou market stall—a stall that disappears forever whenever its market is torn down.
> “Beyond just seeing the delicious food at these street stalls, the bigger realization is that if I don’t see it today, it might be gone in a little while.”
---
[41:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zu1jqRlmHg&t=2462s) Why Revisiting Past Food Memories Destroys Them
When discussing the urge to return to beloved culinary spots from one's past, the hosts reflect on an old warning often passed down by teachers: seeking to relive cherished memories usually ends up ruining them. Revisiting an old food haunt years later almost inevitably shatters the illusion, because neither the atmosphere, the food, nor the people remain unchanged. One speaker shares how, during college, he fell in love with a turkey rice stall located inside Shuiyuan Market, right across from National Taiwan University in Gongguan.
Years after graduating, he brought his daughter back to taste the turkey rice, hoping to share that nostalgic magic, only to find the experience thoroughly diminished. The rice no longer tasted as exquisite as it did in his youth, and the stall keeper—remembered vividly as a youthful, radiant "tofu beauty"—had transformed into an ordinary older auntie over the decades. The realization hits that just as the customer has aged into an old uncle, the vendor has naturally grown older as well, confirming that trying to recapture the past only dislodges the idealized memory preserved in the mind.
> “Reliving the past is actually destroying it.”
- The turkey rice stall was located inside Shuiyuan Market across from National Taiwan University in the Gongguan district.
- Eating meals directly inside wet markets often produces a psychological sensation of peak freshness due to the surrounding meat and produce stalls.
---
[43:05](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zu1jqRlmHg&t=2585s) Market Stalls and the Culture of Immediate Dining
Eating on-site at wet markets offers a raw, immediate connection to food that restaurants cannot match. At the Sydney Fish Market in Australia, visitors purchase freshly prepared lobster and sweet crab meat, taking their meal straight out onto the adjacent grass to eat with their hands just like a loaf of bread, before walking right back inside for more. Similar casual accessibility defines Manhattan's Chelsea Market with its famed lobster spot, as well as the Paul Bocuse market in Lyon, France, where shoppers encounter an exhaustive array of artisanal French cheeses and international cured sausages.
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: Evolution of Market Stall Dining
accDescr: Flowchart showing how wet market dynamics create high-quality, authentic food stalls.
subgraph MarketEcosystem["The Wet Market Ecosystem"]
A["Fresh Local Ingredients"] --> B["Knowledgeable Vendors & Fishmongers"]
B --> C["Daily Cooking Advice Shared with Customers"]
end
subgraph WorkerRoots["Origins of Market Eateries"]
B --> D["Feeding Early-Shift Market Workers"]
D --> E["Simple, Flawless Technique Over Luxury Pricing"]
end
subgraph ModernStatus["Culinary Reputation"]
E --> F["Deep Mastery of Ingredient Preparation"]
F --> G["Authentic Dining Destination"]
end
```
A great market is shaped not only by the freshness of local produce, but by the expertise of the people working behind the counters. In Hong Kong markets, novice home cooks and young residents regularly consult vendors on how to handle unfamiliar ingredients, receiving impromptu cooking masterclasses. Because vendors possess an intimate understanding of their goods and know how to eat well themselves, the food stalls embedded within markets maintain exceptionally high standards. While spots like Tsukiji, Barcelona's La Boqueria, or Sai Kung in Hong Kong have become heavily touristed, market stalls did not originate as tourist attractions.
> “For example, when we go to markets in Hong Kong, you often notice new housewives or young men who didn't know how to cook before get familiar with the vendors and ask, 'Hey, how do you eat this?' 'How do you cook this well?' They will teach you.”
---
[45:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zu1jqRlmHg&t=2703s) Food for Market Workers and the Expertise of Fishmongers
The fundamental reason food stalls located in wet markets taste extraordinarily good is their original purpose: they were established to feed the market laborers and fishmongers themselves. A fishmonger eating breakfast or lunch right inside the seafood market expects fish cooked to perfection, but without extravagant, luxury markups. Regular workers do not demand daily premium tuna belly; they require simple, pristine cooking that highlights the day's catch.
Even in tourist-saturated Tsukiji, looking past the crowded tourist traps where visitors wait from 8:00 AM until noon reveals local gems catering to the morning shift. One modest shop served the finest Japanese grilled fish imaginable—including grilled alfonsino or simple steamed fish served alongside bowls of plain white rice. The cooks at these stalls began as ingredient processors before becoming chefs, giving them an intimate understanding of raw materials that outstrips many fine-dining restaurant kitchens.
> “And that grilled fish was the best Japanese-style grilled fish I’ve ever had in my life.”
- Tsukiji market worker spots prioritized simple steamed or grilled fish (such as alfonsino) with white rice over expensive sashimi.
- Near the Tsukiji Hibiya Line station, the famous Inoue ramen shop is known for its intense, salty broth favored by connoisseurs like Chua Lam (Mr. Tsai).
---
[47:58](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zu1jqRlmHg&t=2878s) The Legendary Produce Markets: From Aberdeen to Kunming's Zhuanxin
The unmatched precision of traditional market vendors is illustrated by a trip to Aberdeen in Hong Kong with food critic Chua Lam (Mr. Tsai). Driving out to the fisherman’s port to eat at the local eateries, Chua Lam stopped first to buy a fish from the fishermen. The vendor immediately chopped off the fish's mouth before handing it over. When asked why, it was explained that the fish had been caught on an individual fishing line rather than scooped up in a commercial net, leaving the hook still lodged inside its mouth. That level of unvarnished precision and material honesty defines the real essence of a produce market.
Similarly, the produce markets of Kunming, Yunnan, completely reshape a visitor’s understanding of fresh food. In particular, the massive Zhuanxin Farmers Market operates on an astonishing scale, filling before dawn with an exhaustive, encyclopedic variety of Yunnan ingredients that sets it apart from anywhere else.
> “The fact that they can be that precise—I think that’s what makes it reliable.”
- In Aberdeen, Hong Kong, fishermen selectively handle line-caught fish, cleanly removing the hook-bearing mouth for buyers.
- Kunming’s Zhuanxin Farmers Market is renowned for its vast size and pre-dawn array of regional Yunnan ingredients.
窦文涛将美食上升到了心理学、美学与伦理学的多重维度，并引申出作家张贤亮的小说《绿化树》中的经典情节。小说男主角在劳改农场饥肠辘辘，帮一位女性修好桌子后，对方递给他一个热气腾腾的白面馒头。主人公在小说中写道，自己已经八年没见过白面，眼泪啪嗒啪嗒掉在馒头的指印上；而那位女子站在他身后，轻声对他说：“往后，我吃什么，你吃什么。”许子东赞叹道，这就是中国版《泰坦尼克号》里“You jump, I jump”的生死誓言，在匮乏年代，“我吃什么，你吃什么”是最崇高、最极致的爱情表达。
[01:19:29](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zu1jqRlmHg&t=4769s) The Journey to Noma and Humility at the World's Top Restaurant
The discussion turns to the legendary Copenhagen restaurant Noma and the extraordinary lengths guests go through just to secure a meal before its announced closure. One speaker recounts how her husband unexpectedly managed to book a table for four. Reluctant at first because of their young children, she was urged by her husband to seize the once-in-a-lifetime opportunity: “No, it's closing, we have to go.” The logistical hurdle of childcare turned into an exhausting two-month quest. She even offered a small fortune to someone in Finland, begging them to fly to Denmark just to babysit for four hours. When local hourly options fell through despite Noma providing links to babysitting agencies, the couple resolved the dilemma by flying her parents-in-law over from Taiwan. Noma graciously accommodated their request to split the four-person reservation into two shifts—two people for lunch and two for dinner—allowing each couple to take turns watching the children.
Beyond the food itself, the speaker emphasizes that the emotional resonance of the meal began with the immense effort required to get there. What struck her most upon arriving was the total absence of pretension or intimidation. Guests were not subjected to arbitrary dress codes, social scrutiny, or the pressure to perform as seasoned epicures: “I believe a truly confident, world-class restaurant is always the most humble; they never categorize or judge you.” Upon stepping through the iconic antler-adorned entrance as the first guests of the service, the entire staff greeted them with enthusiastic applause. The table jokes about the reversal of roles, noting that guests usually applaud at the end of an exceptional service, whereas clapping upon entry feels almost like an inspection visit by a high-ranking dignitary.
- **Booking logistics**: A table for four split into two shifts (lunch and dinner) so family members could alternate babysitting duties.
- **Childcare search**: Two months of failed attempts, including inquiries to Finnish sitters and recommendations from Noma's dedicated babysitting resource list.
- **Atmosphere and hospitality**: An unpretentious, egalitarian reception where world-class acclaim is expressed through warmth, humility, and zero dining pressure.
---
[01:22:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zu1jqRlmHg&t=4928s) Tasting the Aged Chicken, SCOBY, and Redefining Raw vs. Cooked
The conversation shifts to the menu and culinary techniques, highlighted by Noma’s dedicated fermentation laboratory. Examining photos of the dishes, the speaker describes the first course: an aged chicken that appeared deceptively simple. Despite its understated presentation, the rich, savory fat immediately brought to mind nostalgic comfort food, specifically the iconic Hong Kong soy sauce chicken rice. The diners note an amusing subversion of Western dining conventions: while Westerners are traditionally assumed to dislike eating whole animal heads, the European guests seated nearby were served the entire chicken with the head intact and positioned directly facing them.
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: Evolution of Cooking Methods
accDescr: Diagram illustrating the paradigm shift from fire to fermentation and aging in gastronomy.
subgraph Traditional["Traditional Culinary Paradigm"]
Fire["Control of Fire"] --> HeatCooked["Heat Processing: Boiling, Grilling, Stir-frying"]
end
subgraph FermentationAging["Gastronomic Evolution"]
Microbes["Microbial Fermentation"] --> BioTransform["Digestibility without Fire"]
AgingProcess["Complex Aging (Dry/Wet)"] --> RawSafety["Edible 'Raw' Meats (e.g., Jamón)"]
end
HeatCooked -.->|"Redefining Raw vs. Cooked"| BioTransform
BioTransform --> ModernPlate["Limitless Gastronomic Possibilities"]
RawSafety --> ModernPlate
```
The table debates how Noma challenges foundational ideas about what constitutes "cooked" and "raw" food. Another course featured a vibrant red layer made from a SCOBY (symbiotic culture of bacteria and yeast) harvested directly from the surface of fermented kombucha tea. While some might dismiss these avant-garde experiments as mere storytelling, the speakers argue that it expands sensory boundaries. Just as fire originally allowed early humans to digest foods after descending from the trees, microbial transformation represents an equally vital human milestone. As one speaker observes: “Fermentation is the second greatest human discovery after fire.” The participants draw parallels to Spanish ham, where meticulous curing and aging—rather than thermal cooking—render raw meat safe, tender, and deeply complex for human digestion.
- **Chicken presentation**: An aged bird served simply, evoking memories of Cantonese soy sauce chicken rice, served whole with the head displayed to neighboring Western diners.
- **Fermentation experiments**: The utilization of kombucha pellicles (SCOBY) transformed into edible culinary layers.
- **Culinary science**: Reinterpreting the boundaries of cooking through natural fermentation and specialized aging rather than traditional heat application.
---
[01:24:51](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zu1jqRlmHg&t=5091s) Ant Acid, Temporal Layers, and Independent Souls in the Palate
The discussion delves into Noma’s radical approach to seasoning, particularly its rejection of conventional culinary acids like bottled vinegar in favor of wild formic acid derived from ants. While the concept of eating insects initially sparks hesitation and scrunched brows, the speaker explains that dining at this level demands stripping away ingrained prejudices, much like encouraging a child to try new fruit. The ants provide a precise, bright citrus-like acidity rather than a gimmick, seamlessly integrating into complex sauces without muddling individual ingredients.
```mermaid
flowchart LR
accTitle: Flavor Transition from Spatial to Temporal Dimensions
accDescr: Flowchart showing how Noma sauces progress across front, middle, and finish on the palate.
A["Initial Sip/Bite"] -->|"Mouth Contracts"| B["Front Notes: Sharp Formic Acidity"]
B -->|"Mouth Relaxes & Secretes"| C["Middle Notes: Savory & Umami Layers"]
C -->|"Lingering Sweetness (Hui Gan)"| D["Finish: Clean, Harmonious Separation"]
```
Rather than blending flavors into a uniform profile, the dishes unfold in distinct chronological stages—shifting the tasting experience from spatial layering to temporal progression, akin to fine spirits or high-grade Chinese tea. The sharp acid causes the mouth to contract initially, after which natural salivation releases an enduring, sweet aftertaste (*hui gan*). The speaker marvels at how even an everyday diner without formal gastronomic training can intuitively grasp this artistry simply by eating slowly and paying attention. Summarizing the profound harmony of the dish, she reflects: “Oh my god, there are several independent souls inside my mouth, yet they cooperate so well, so perfectly, without overshadowing each other.”
- **Formic acid replacement**: Fresh ants used systematically in place of vinegar to introduce a sharp, natural acid profile.
- **Temporal taste structure**: Flavors designed with distinct front, middle, and finish notes, mirroring the tasting progression of aged spirits and fine tea.
- **Accessibility**: A culinary design that does not require expert knowledge to enjoy, allowing any attentive diner to perceive the balance of distinct, non-competing flavors.
[0:00] In Chaoshan, Taiwan, and Southern
[0:02] Fujian, there is a plant called "Bird
[0:04] Won't Stand." Whether it's scrambled
[0:07] eggs with "Bird Won't Stand" or pork
[0:09] trotters stewed with it—Ma Ying-jeou
[0:11] loves this plant. It is China's ancient
[0:14] chili pepper, and it's the closest
[0:16] thing to
[0:16] >> the taste of the chili peppers
[0:18] >> we eat today.
[0:19] >> The taste—so to say that the palates
[0:21] of ancient Chinese people haven't
[0:23] changed compared to today's is
[0:24] definitely wrong. This means we can
[0:26] expect that in 100 years, the Chinese
[0:28] people
[0:29] >> will find flavors delicious that are
[0:31] different from today's.
[0:32] >> They will be different, and food trends
[0:34] will change too. For example, the Song
[0:36] Dynasty's favorite dish was "Crab in
[0:38] Orange." Uh, have you had that? I had
[0:42] it at that launch event. Its container
[0:45] is literally an orange. Because back
[0:49] then, this was something new to China.
[0:52] >> Ah, a dish served inside an orange.
[0:54] Right, crab meat stuffed inside orange
[0:57] peels.
[0:57] >> That was, and still is, a very high-end
[1:00] delicacy.
[1:01] >> Furthermore, seasonings have advanced
[1:02] very rapidly over the years.
[1:04] >> Yes, and there are so many of them now.
[1:05] >> In ancient times, there were no "13-
[1:07] spice" blends.
[1:08] >> Just as there was no curry in ancient
[1:10] India.
[1:10] >> So, who knows, maybe in 100 years,
[1:12] we'll be roasting aliens.
[1:14] >> I recently read a very interesting book
[1:16] written by a foreigner called "500
[1:18] Years of Addiction." I once talked
[1:19] about this specifically: anything that
[1:21] can make you addicted has created
[1:22] world-class wealth. Yes.
[1:24] >> For instance, 100 years ago, what made
[1:25] a person powerful? The Sugar Kings.
[1:27] >> Exactly.
[1:28] >> Those in the sugar trade.
[1:29] >> Right, and also...
[1:30] >> Those in the salt trade, the salt
[1:32] merchants.
[1:32] >> Now you might ask, how can you make
[1:34] money from salt? A bag of salt lasts
[1:35] them half a year, so where does the
[1:37] profit come from? But salt merchants
[1:38] were once the richest in their regions.
[1:40] All these things can make you addicted.
[1:42] >> There are two categories of addiction.
[1:44] >> Humans are like this: things that are
[1:46] essential for survival are called food.
[1:49] Things that create physical and mental
[1:51] dependence but provide no health
[1:53] benefits are called drugs. The middle
[1:54] ground is called stimulants.
[1:56] >> Hmm.
[1:57] >> In our country, the upper limit for
[1:59] stimulants is tobacco; one step further
[2:01] , and it's drugs. Some countries have
[2:04] legalized marijuana.
[2:06] >> For example, in the U.S., it’s
[2:08] legalized in some places where you can
[2:10] use it under supervision, but not just
[2:12] anywhere.
[2:13] >> So, what is the lower limit? The lower
[2:15] limit for food and stimulants is salt.
[2:18] >> Hmm. And sugar. Things in between, for
[2:21] instance, chili peppers.
[2:23] >> Hmm.
[2:24] >> Chili peppers are addictive too. You
[2:26] know, if a person who loves spicy food
[2:28] suddenly stops...After three days, they
[2:30] feel terrible all over, they absolutely
[2:32] have to eat it.
[2:33] >> They start showing withdrawal symptoms.
[2:35] >> Yes.
[2:36] >> So these things can all potentially
[2:37] bring you huge profits, which is why
[2:39] there is a book called "The Merchant
[2:41] 500 Years." Hmm, another book also
[2:42] written by a Westerner is called "The
[2:45] Rights of Salt." You see, it's about
[2:48] salt and social classes, salt and
[2:50] economic interests, salt and
[2:52] colonialism.
[2:54] >> But, if you want to talk about taste, I
[2:57] personally feel that, for example,
[2:59] historically, spices...
[3:02] >> The Spice Trade, that was a major
[3:03] pillar of East-West trade. Later, take
[3:06] eating Western food, for example,
[3:08] what’s the difference between eating
[3:10] French cuisine and Chinese cuisine? I
[3:13] have a feeling that when eating French
[3:15] food, for instance, what do they focus
[3:17] on? We focus on the tongue, hmm.
[3:20] >> How come I feel that when I eat French
[3:21] food, my nose is enjoying it too?
[3:23] >> Actually,
[3:24] >> It’s like this kind of fragrance
[3:26] enveloping me, but look, Chinese food
[3:28] is sometimes different. Like eating hot
[3:30] pot, you might not know what it smells
[3:32] like, right, but it tastes really good
[3:33] in your mouth.
[3:35] >> Anything with a peculiar odor. Those
[3:37] who like it call it fragrant, those who
[3:39] don't certainly call it stinky, saying
[3:40] how bad it smells. Take me, I like
[3:42] eating Chinese toon, right? Many people
[3:44] tell me, how can you eat that toon? I
[3:46] ask what kind of smell? They think it's
[3:48] a stench.
[3:49] >> Right.
[3:49] >> Right, it smells like feces.
[3:53] >> Then you chop it up and scramble it
[3:55] with eggs, it still has that sensation.
[4:00] So, these kinds of odors—coriander,
[4:02] fish mint—many people don't eat
[4:04] anything with strong odors.
[4:08] >> These all contain a certain substance
[4:10] in the plants,
[4:10] >> volatile oily substances.
[4:12] >> Right, like me, I eat everything. I'm
[4:15] also looking for things I don't eat,
[4:16] but haven't found any yet.
[4:18] >> Right, right, right.
[4:19] >> You, you couldn't possibly have any.
[4:21] But Xiaoqing, how do you interpret what
[4:23] I said?
[4:24] >> What you said...
[4:25] >> It’s like saying Westerners put
[4:27] spices on the surface, which is a bit
[4:29] one-sided.
[4:30] >> Actually, Chinese people also use
[4:32] spices. It's just that Chinese people
[4:35] like to bury the spices within the dish
[4:38] , whereas foreign spices tend to be
[4:39] more superficial. For example, that
[4:42] thing in your Anhui, what is it called,
[4:44] stinky fish or something?
[4:45] >> Right, stinky mandarin fish, yes,
[4:47] stinky fish.
[4:48] >> Doesn't the stinky mandarin fish
[4:49] challenge your nose?
[4:50] >> Do you think it smells fragrant when
[4:51] you sniff it?
[4:51] >> I think it smells fragrant. Ah, it is a
[4:53] bit smelly, but it tastes very, very
[4:55] fragrant.
[4:56] >> Fragrance and stench shouldn't be
[4:57] distinguished so clearly; it’s just a
[4:59] type of flavor. If you're used to it,
[5:01] it’s fine; if you're not, you just
[5:03] feel it's...
[5:03] >> The smelliest one? I think the
[5:05] smelliest Chinese food is stinky tofu.
[5:07] No, no, no.
[5:08] >> Then what is it?
[5:09] >> What is it? I mean,
[5:10] >> That amaranth stem.
[5:11] >> Ah?
[5:12] >> Amaranth stem.
[5:13] >> I’ve never had that, amaranth...
[5:15] amaranth.
[5:15] >> Vegetable.
[5:16] >> Red amaranth stems.
[5:18] >> Stinky winter melon and amaranth stems
[5:20] in the same crock.
[5:21] >> Do you know...do you know how stinky
[5:23] that stinky tofu is? We all say there
[5:25] were no good people among the educated
[5:27] youth. And those educated youth dorms
[5:29] were just awful. A piece of stinky tofu
[5:31] cost three cents, you take half and
[5:33] give the rest away; breakfast gone,
[5:35] half-eaten, holding the rest, you wait
[5:37] until no one’s looking and smear it
[5:39] under the bed board. The bed board was
[5:40] made of that super rough wood, and it
[5:42] would just soak right in.
[5:44] >> Stink.
[5:45] >> For a month, anyone who walked into
[5:47] that room would say, "Damn, what is
[5:48] that smell?" It was incredibly stinky,
[5:50] and that stench was very close to human
[5:52] excrement.
[5:53] >> Yeah, right? Very, very close.
[5:56] >> You...you have stinky stories too. No,
[6:00] what Master Ma said just now was spot
[6:02] on—there really is no gap between
[6:04] fragrant and stinky, it’s just the
[6:06] same thing, like that indole, if a
[6:08] chemical substance doesn't—
[6:11] >> I think roses are, right? That rose
[6:13] indole, if the concentration is 10,000
[6:16] times higher, it’s feces.
[6:17] >> I think roses smell stinky too.
[6:20] >> If it's a bit lighter, you think, "Oh,
[6:21] this is the scent of a rose." If that
[6:23] scent is 10,000 times stronger,
[6:25] that’s feces, that’s the smell of
[6:26] feces.
[6:27] >> So, stink and fragrance are essentially
[6:28] one and the same. As Master Ma said,
[6:30] fragrance and stink are not two
[6:31] different things. Yeah.
[6:32] >> But Xiao Qing, you still have to tell
[6:34] us about the best hot pot you’ve ever
[6:36] had. Uh, actually, I’m more used to
[6:39] the hot pot from Anhui or the Central
[6:41] Plains. The hot pot I ate when I was a
[6:45] kid, it actually had all the
[6:46] ingredients prepared beforehand. Put
[6:49] inside. Also called...
[6:50] >> Yipin Pot. Right, also called Yipin Pot
[6:53] or "Hejia.""Jiahuan" or something like
[6:56] that.
[6:58] >> Uh, it’s something like the whole
[6:59] family being there. There’s egg.
[7:03] >> There’s mutton. There’s, uh,
[7:05] regular tofu and fried tofu. It’s
[7:08] arranged very, very nicely, all laid
[7:10] out, then brought out in a pot for
[7:12] everyone to eat.
[7:14] >> That’s exactly their Li Hongzhang hot
[7:16] pot. Yes, yes.
[7:19] >> Wasn't it also called "Airen" or "Yipin
[7:21] Pot"?
[7:22] >> Li Hongzhang’s medley.
[7:24] >> That uncle ranked the top three hot
[7:25] pots in China. The first, of course, is
[7:28] the Sichuan and Chongqing style hot pot
[7:30] .
[7:30] >> The second is the Northern style, which
[7:32] is the thinly sliced mutton. The third,
[7:34] what was it called again? The one from
[7:36] Guangdong.
[7:37] >> Ah.
[7:37] >> Dabianlu.
[7:38] >> Dabianlu, yeah.
[7:39] >> Is that what it is?
[7:40] >> Congee base pot. Beyond your own
[7:43] hometown's, which hot pot is your
[7:45] personal favorite?
[7:47] >> It’s still Chongqing hot pot, because
[7:49] it’s the most accessible and
[7:51] affordable for ordinary people.
[7:53] >> Is lamb hot pot not affordable?
[7:55] >> Lamb is a bit expensive, and the cost
[7:57] is certainly higher than standard
[7:59] Chongqing hot pot. Chongqing hot pot
[8:01] used to be called "one-to-three."
[8:04] >> Oh, what does that mean? One yuan for
[8:06] all veggie dishes, three yuan a plate
[8:08] for meats—that’s "one-to-three."
[8:10] Now there’s even "four-to-two.""
[8:12] >> Four-to-two" means two yuan for veggie
[8:14] dishes and four yuan for meat dishes.
[8:16] >> Oh.
[8:17] >> Lamb hot pot can’t achieve that.
[8:20] >> Besides, Chongqing hot pot was
[8:22] historically all about eating the
[8:23] scraps.
[8:24] >> Yes, that’s the most important part.
[8:26] >> Eating the things others wouldn't touch
[8:28] .
[8:28] >> The hot pot pictures you see...
[8:30] >> Mhm. ...
[8:31] >> those are pots from the homes of
[8:33] wealthy officials. Real hot pot has
[8:35] only been around for about 100 years.
[8:37] That was for Chongqing laborers. It
[8:40] started as eating offal by the
[8:42] riverside. But the wisdom of the
[8:44] Chinese lies exactly in this: they can
[8:46] turn things nobody wants into something
[8:49] people love. For example, "huanghou"(
[8:51] aorta)—do you know what that is?
[8:54] >> Of course I do.
[8:55] >> What is it?
[8:56] >> It’s not monkey, is it?
[8:57] >> No.
[8:58] >> Then what?
[8:59] >> It’s the aorta of a cow or pig.
[9:01] >> Oh, I really didn't know that.
[9:03] >> But you can't just eat it directly. It
[9:06] has many layers; you have to peel them
[9:08] off one by one. Only the innermost part
[9:11] is crispy and edible.
[9:12] >> Mhm.
[9:13] >> It requires a tremendous amount of
[9:15] manual labor beforehand. Take beef
[9:17] tripe, for example.
[9:18] >> Mhm.
[9:19] >> Cows have four stomachs.
[9:21] >> Right.
[9:21] >> Only the third one is actually edible.
[9:23] The third stomach, which we call "baiye
[9:25] "(omasum).
[9:26] >> Exactly.
[9:27] >> Now, some also use the second stomach,
[9:30] which we in Guangdong call "jinqian"(
[9:32] honeycomb tripe). "
[9:33] >> Jinqian" is also included. But some
[9:36] people also use the third stomach of a
[9:38] lamb, known as "sandan"(omasum).
[9:41] >> You know, in Beijing, when eating tripe
[9:43] ...
[9:44] >> This "sandan,""duren"(tripe), and "
[9:46] duling"(tripe strip)—every part has a
[9:49] different texture and taste. For
[9:51] instance, Mr. Ma Lianliang only cared
[9:54] for "duren."
[9:55] >> He was obsessed with that one bite; he
[9:57] wouldn't touch anything else.
[9:59] >> All these things require repeated
[10:01] processing. Otherwise, it’s just too
[10:03] much work.
[10:04] >> It seems Chinese people really love hot
[10:06] pot. Why do you think that is?
[10:09] >> The simplest reason is that it’s
[10:11] relatively easy. Why are there so many
[10:12] hot pot restaurants in Chongqing?
[10:14] Because the costs are low.
[10:15] >> Right.
[10:16] >> There are no head chefs.
[10:17] >> Without a head chef, there won't be any
[10:19] conflicts, you understand?
[10:20] >> Why would having a head chef cause
[10:22] conflicts?
[10:23] >> The head chef is the most important
[10:24] technical asset of a restaurant. If
[10:26] they have a conflict with the manager
[10:27] or the investors, there's nothing you
[10:29] can do about it.
[10:29] >> Mm. Mm.
[10:30] >> Hot pot restaurants have low costs, so
[10:32] eating hot pot is just...
[10:33] >> Hot pot is essentially the Chinese
[10:35] version of a buffet. When a TV host or
[10:37] a head chef leaves,
[10:40] >> if a host leaves, it takes a long time
[10:42] to recover.
[10:43] >> Oh.
[10:44] >> So, hot pot doesn't need a head chef.
[10:47] Its technical requirements aren't that
[10:49] high. More importantly, those eating
[10:52] hot pot have the autonomy in their own
[10:54] hands. Mm.
[10:56] >> Cook it for a shorter time, cook it for
[10:58] a longer time...
[10:59] >> When I went out to eat, back when I was
[11:01] young, I liked watching people eat.
[11:03] >> Take instant-boiled lamb; back then, it
[11:04] was considered a big meal. In the 80s,
[11:06] when reform and opening up had just
[11:07] started, if you treated someone to
[11:09] instant-boiled lamb, those old
[11:10] gentlemen would think it was authentic,
[11:11] because no one else was hosting. You
[11:12] can tell who the aristocrats are when
[11:14] they eat.
[11:15] >> Exactly.
[11:16] >> That goes without saying. Anyone who is
[11:18] particular about food cares deeply
[11:19] about the dipping sauce.
[11:21] >> Mm. Those who aren't just shove it in
[11:24] quickly. You see them just gulping down
[11:26] a whole platter.
[11:27] >> People like Wang, when they eat, they
[11:29] finish mixing their sauce first. It’s
[11:31] never perfect on the first try. I think
[11:32] it’s a show for you to watch, a
[11:34] ritual. Once mixed, they take their
[11:36] chopsticks, dip them in, and have a
[11:38] taste.
[11:38] >> Adding some chive flower paste is
[11:40] really just for everyone else to see.
[11:42] >> I just don’t believe that adding such
[11:44] a tiny bit can change the flavor that
[11:45] much.
[11:45] >> It actually does change it; for a
[11:47] gourmet, it certainly does. Why do they
[11:49] have to add that little bit? It’s
[11:52] impossible to get it perfectly to your
[11:53] liking on the first attempt. They have
[11:55] to go through the whole process, which
[11:57] means having another go at it. Having
[11:59] another go—maybe saying this time it
[12:01] shouldn't be too old, or adding too
[12:02] much chive flower makes it look
[12:04] unprofessional. Next time they add a
[12:05] bit of this or that—fermented bean
[12:07] curd, or something else. Their requests
[12:09] are different every time, but they
[12:11] absolutely refuse to get it right in
[12:12] one go. Mm.
[12:14] >> Everyone mixes their own sauce. The
[12:18] kind where the restaurant pre-mixes it
[12:20] for you is really tacky, right?
[12:23] >> That doesn't work.
[12:24] >> A good hot pot restaurant must let you
[12:26] mix your own.
[12:27] >> True, the one I mix myself is usually
[12:29] gone after a few bites. But take
[12:31] Donglaishun for example.
[12:34] >> They used to have a break period of
[12:35] over two months every year.
[12:38] >> Mm. In the ten to fifteen days before
[12:41] they closed for the break, they would
[12:42] go heavy on the seasoning.
[12:45] >> Ah.
[12:46] >> What does that mean?
[12:47] >> It means that after that, everything
[12:49] else you eat elsewhere tastes bland.
[12:51] >> Mm-mm.
[12:52] >> This is something written in the
[12:54] memoirs of many elderly people.
[12:58] >> And where did I read this? During the
[13:01] Cultural Revolution, when criticizing
[13:03] the past.
[13:05] >> That’s the nasty part. Well, I really
[13:07] didn't know that. I mean, speaking of
[13:11] human taste, for instance, we’re
[13:13] often curious if the aesthetic sense of
[13:15] the ancients was the same as ours today
[13:18] , right? I mean, look at tea; we know
[13:22] that in the Tang Dynasty, tea was even
[13:25] boiled like a soup and they would add
[13:27] salt to it, right? It was drunk like a
[13:30] soup, but later it gradually evolved
[13:32] into the clear tea we drink today, so
[13:34] the taste changed. The aesthetics
[13:38] changed, so do you think the food that
[13:40] ancient people found delicious is the
[13:42] same as what we find delicious today?
[13:47] >> It's like this; I suddenly remembered
[13:49] what Xiaoqing said just now about how
[13:51] to make a dish well—that flavor is
[13:53] the key. Actually, spiciness is
[13:56] different from other tastes, even
[13:58] though we list it alongside sour, sweet
[14:00] , bitter, and salty as if it were the
[14:03] same. In fact, spiciness is not a taste
[14:06] ; it follows a completely different
[14:08] neural pathway than the others.
[14:10] Spiciness follows the neural pathway
[14:12] for heat and pain, which is why your
[14:14] hand will hurt if you put it in chili
[14:15] sauce, but if you put it in something
[14:17] sweet, it won't hurt your hand.
[14:19] >> Right.
[14:20] >> Its essence is actually different, but
[14:22] this spicy neural pathway is
[14:23] particularly dominant.
[14:24] >> Yes, yes.
[14:25] >> With Chongqing hot pot, that spice
[14:27] immediately suppresses all other tastes
[14:28] .
[14:28] >> Everything gets turned into a sea of
[14:30] red.
[14:30] >> It is extremely dominant. Right,
[14:33] spiciness is actually a form of injury
[14:35] to the taste buds; it’s essentially a
[14:37] form of self-masochism or S&M.
[14:40] >> That’s why you get a "high" from it.
[14:41] >> The spice you're talking about now is
[14:43] chili spice, but in ancient times, "
[14:45] spicy" meant pungent.
[14:46] >> Pungency was one of the five flavors,
[14:48] and it didn't exist before the Ming
[14:50] Dynasty.
[14:50] >> It didn't exist; spice was the very
[14:52] last addition to the culinary
[14:54] repertoire. Anything that is slightly
[14:57] stimulating can be addictive.
[14:59] >> Tobacco is stimulating too. Tea is
[15:01] stimulating.
[15:02] >> Including Sichuan peppercorns.
[15:03] >> Right, those are what the Chinese
[15:05] traditionally used.
[15:06] >> When you drink tea for the first time,
[15:07] it’s very bitter and hard to swallow;
[15:09] no one who hasn't developed a taste for
[15:11] it would wonder why anyone likes it.
[15:13] It’s just that everything that makes
[15:15] you addicted doesn't make you feel
[15:16] comfortable at first.
[15:17] >> Mm.
[15:19] >> Ah. Except for sugar. Sugar is special.
[15:22] >> Sugar is natural, you know, because
[15:24] breast milk is.
[15:25] >> Let me tell you, his obsession with
[15:27] food has reached such a level. Before
[15:30] he comes to record the show, I actually
[15:32] gain weight, not necessarily.
[15:33] >> Right now, these past few days are when
[15:35] I'm at my heaviest.
[15:36] >> Knowing Xiaoqing was coming, I had to
[15:38] gain some.
[15:38] >> Right, I said there’s a psychic
[15:40] connection, it’s just too much.
[15:41] >> I completely agree, I almost, as I just
[15:43] told brother Xiaoqing, nearly got
[15:45] divorced, nearly got rid of my wife.
[15:49] Because didn't brother Xiaoqing say
[15:50] he’d take us out to eat later?
[15:53] >> But my wife, who is usually very
[15:55] healthy. Suddenly got sick today and
[15:58] said she was seriously ill.
[15:59] >> She faked the illness for me to see.
[16:01] >> I had to take care of my daughter, so I
[16:03] had to go back to look after my wife.
[16:06] >> I have never been angry at my wife
[16:08] before, I asked her what was going on,
[16:10] do you know I’ve been waiting 56
[16:11] years for this meal? In the end, of
[16:15] course, I’m sorry, my wife is still
[16:17] more important than Xiaoqing, because I
[16:19] realized Xiaoqing really lives a
[16:20] certain kind of life, living his whole
[16:22] life just for delicious food. You know,
[16:26] you know, today's topic is about the
[16:28] wet markets that Xiaoqing brought for
[16:30] us.
[16:31] >> Wet markets, let's first get some
[16:33] visual impressions. I can share
[16:35] Xiaoqing's good fortune with food, look
[16:37] over there.
[16:38] >> Which one is this? This is the
[16:41] Xinyuanli Market in Beijing, and this
[16:43] one is a Thai wet market, a floating
[16:45] market. Wow, you're impressive. People
[16:49] all know the Tsukiji Market in Japan,
[16:51] famous worldwide for the New Year tuna
[16:54] auction. And then look at Xiamen's
[16:56] Eight Markets. I’m telling you about
[16:58] Xiaoqing's good fortune, he goes to
[17:00] Xiamen's Eight Markets, led by local
[17:02] foodies, look down here, first pick a
[17:04] fish, is this a dog-head shark, or
[17:06] tiger-head shark? Dog shark, dog shark.
[17:09] >> Dog shark, and then that very night,
[17:11] Xiaoqing saw it turned into a dish.
[17:14] >> It wasn't Xiaoqing who cooked it, oh my
[17:16] , you’re saying he lives like this
[17:18] every day.
[17:19] >> No, you only see the thief eating, not
[17:22] the thief getting beaten.
[17:25] >> We also often go to places that
[17:27] everyone says are excellent. Only to
[17:30] find that, as expected.
[17:31] >> It happens too.
[17:33] >> How high is your failure rate?
[17:34] >> 50%.
[17:35] >> Ah.
[17:36] >> Is it really, really that high?
[17:38] >> Then we’ve eaten in vain. So when you
[17:40] encounter that situation, how do you
[17:42] react? For example, people are so
[17:44] welcoming, and Mr. Chen brings it over.
[17:47] >> You have to keep smiling and say, "Oh,
[17:49] how interesting, how interesting." You
[17:51] can't say it’s not good, right?
[17:54] >> And afterwards, you wouldn't write an
[17:56] article criticizing it, right?
[17:58] >> No, that’s not the case. Because
[18:01] I’ve heard Mr. Chua say—people
[18:03] often tell him—first of all, you get
[18:05] good food because you’re Chua Lam. Mm
[18:08] .
[18:09] >> You’re not just anybody, so when Mr.
[18:11] Chua arrives, they’ll definitely
[18:12] bring out the best they have.
[18:16] >> Secondly, regarding the criticism of
[18:17] Chua’s food reviews—that you always
[18:19] say it’s good and never criticize
[18:21] anyone—I think Mr. Chua’s response
[18:23] is kind-hearted and correct. He says
[18:27] it’s not easy to run a business.
[18:29] It’s hard enough for people to open a
[18:31] shop. If it doesn’t taste good, just
[18:33] don’t mention it, don’t talk about
[18:35] it. Why do you have to bash them? If
[18:37] they go under and can’t pay their
[18:39] mortgage, are you going to pay it for
[18:40] them? I think this is a kind way to
[18:42] conduct oneself.
[18:43] >> True. This is the old-school way of
[18:45] conduct for Chinese intellectuals,
[18:47] though sometimes, it can bring about
[18:49] some problems, you know? For example,
[18:51] we usually say Westerners focus on
[18:54] right and wrong. Like with our ancient
[18:57] art appraisals—or even just back in
[18:59] the Republican era—figures like Wu
[19:01] Changshuo and others would often have
[19:03] people bring them a fake painting.
[19:07] >> They’d ask, "Could you add an
[19:08] inscription for me?"
[19:09] >> And he would add the inscription.
[19:11] People nearby would say, "That’s
[19:12] clearly fake, you shouldn’t have
[19:14] signed it." But he’d say, "This one
[19:15] painting could support their family’s
[19:17] livelihood; it’s not easy for them."
[19:19] You see, sometimes their approach to
[19:21] authenticity is tempered by this kind
[19:23] of kindness.
[19:25] >> Actually, it’s the same in Beijing. I
[19:28] remember someone once said to a famous
[19:31] chef in Beijing, Mr. Da Dong, "Look at
[19:33] so-and-so’s place, even their decor
[19:36] is copying yours." It’s like how Mr.
[19:39] Qi Gong would often sign works people
[19:41] brought him even if they were fake; he
[19:43] wanted everyone to make a living.
[19:46] >> Mm.
[19:46] >> So, in the future, we should be a bit
[19:48] more cautious about the restaurants
[19:49] Chen Xiaoqing recommends.
[19:50] >> It’s the same logic; we have to
[19:52] consider how kind-hearted Xiaoqing is.
[19:54] >> Xiaoqing’s tongue is actually very
[19:57] sharp—no, not sharp, it’s that your
[19:59] show releases "poison" at nine o'clock
[20:01] at night. But why are you so interested
[20:03] in talking about wet markets?
[20:08] >> I feel that the way we talk about
[20:10] tourism now needs an upgrade. Usually,
[20:19] when we visit a city, we go to historic
[20:21] sites or landmark buildings, but the
[20:24] closest way to really understand a city
[20:26] is to visit its wet market.
[20:34] >> You, if you’ve seen a city’s wet
[20:36] market, in my words, it’s like skin
[20:38] —that’s how you get...right,
[20:40] intimate contact with the city. Famous
[20:45] historical sites and such, they...
[20:47] They’re all dressed in suits and ties
[20:49] , all polished up. But a market can’t
[20:54] fake it, even if it wanted to. Plus,
[20:58] there’s always a lot of good food
[20:59] lurking around it.
[21:04] >> Great little restaurants, tasty snacks
[21:05] —they’re especially dense there
[21:07] because that’s where they get the
[21:09] freshest ingredients.
[21:13] >> But I’m being serious about the eight
[21:14] .
[21:15] >> Right.
[21:17] >> Our research assistant, this girl. She
[21:20] ate, she ate those turtle cakes, red
[21:23] turtle cakes—you know, the ones.
[21:25] >> Right, right, right, like rice cakes.
[21:28] >> She ate eight of them, wow.
[21:30] >> Are they that good?
[21:31] >> That’s a bit exaggerated. It actually
[21:34] scared the locals in Xiamen, saying, "
[21:36] How can this kid from the Northeast eat
[21:38] so much?" Hey.
[21:41] >> How could she eat that much? It would
[21:43] take her days just to digest it.
[21:45] >> It really is a way of life. Like when
[21:47] you mention Mr. Tsai—I remember, was
[21:50] it written by Xiaoqing or someone else?
[21:52] He said, look, in Naples, Italy,
[21:54] you’re woken up at five or six in the
[21:56] morning while still groggy, then you
[21:58] follow people to take a boat to another
[22:00] island.
[22:00] >> Written by Mr. Tsai, right? Mm.
[22:04] >> Go to some famous market to buy fish
[22:06] for today’s lunch, then take a boat
[22:08] back and wait in the room for the chef
[22:10] to cook this freshest catch for lunch.
[22:14] >> That is Italian culinary tourism.
[22:16] >> That’s very typical; Japan has it too
[22:18] .
[22:19] >> Right, Japan.
[22:20] >> Japan has it, too. In Japan, like the
[22:22] Tsukiji or Omi markets I mentioned,
[22:23] they all have things like that.
[22:25] >> It’s like, I go buy it with you, then
[22:27] I come back and cook it with you. Right
[22:29] .
[22:29] >> Do you love visiting wet markets?
[22:31] >> I absolutely love visiting wet markets.
[22:33] >> Tell me about it.
[22:34] >> Because I think wet markets—for
[22:36] instance, no matter where I travel, I
[22:38] always go to the wet markets. Because
[22:40] in the markets of many places, I
[22:42] encounter everyone in society—they
[22:44] all have to come to the market, or have
[22:46] their agents come to the market.
[22:50] >> So you can see at a vegetable stall, a
[22:53] buyer for a high-end restaurant or even
[22:55] a family cook standing right next to an
[22:57] ordinary person picking out produce. Of
[23:01] course, you can tell the difference in
[23:03] the price points, but the point is, at
[23:05] the very least, they are all appearing
[23:07] in the same scene. There aren’t many
[23:09] places like wet markets where people
[23:11] from all parts of society...
[23:12] >> For example, can you name a city?
[23:14] >> Take our friend, for instance, in
[23:16] Taipei. Uh, like our good friend Mr.
[23:19] Zhang Hongzhi. Right.
[23:22] >> He often goes to the wet market; he’s
[23:24] a big boss, right? But he goes to the
[23:27] market to buy groceries himself, and
[23:28] he’s quite over-the-top about it.
[23:30] Every time he shops, he meets a bunch
[23:32] of chefs. Some are street food chefs
[23:35] who ask him, "Which restaurant are you
[23:37] from?" They see him shopping and assume
[23:40] he’s a peer buying wholesale. He says
[23:43] , "I'm from my own place.""Which place?
[23:45] Oh, what kind of restaurant do you run?
[23:48] " This is also true in Japan. At
[23:52] Japanese markets, you can definitely
[23:54] spot chefs from top-tier restaurants
[23:56] picking out produce. There are some
[23:59] things they actually keep hidden away,
[24:01] waiting just for regular buyers like
[24:02] you. But the thing is, as tourists,
[24:06] even if he doesn't sell those special
[24:08] items to us, we’re at least at the
[24:10] same stall, able to get what we can get
[24:12] . So, it’s a place where society
[24:17] really converges. And secondly, what
[24:20] else can a market do? It gives you a
[24:23] completely different perception of the
[24:25] world. For example, I remember once
[24:29] going to a massive wholesale market in
[24:31] Peru; it was absolutely shocking! There
[24:36] was an entire street, I’d say about
[24:38] 800 meters long, where every single
[24:40] stall was selling potatoes.
[24:42] >> Stall after stall of potatoes; I had
[24:44] never seen so many varieties in my life
[24:47] .
[24:47] >> Potatoes of all kinds, you couldn't
[24:48] even name them, and they were all...
[24:51] >> This makes everything feel very, very
[24:53] informal.
[24:55] >> People think hot pot might be a bit
[24:57] messy or unhealthy, but it’s actually
[24:59] very healthy. I’d bet that many
[25:03] viewers watching this are bothered by
[25:04] cavities or toothaches, even if you
[25:06] brush your teeth...
[25:08] >> I just had dental work done, yeah.
[25:10] >> Even if you brush three times a day and
[25:11] watch your oral hygiene, it still hurts
[25:13] . Yeah.
[25:13] >> Why is that? It’s actually because
[25:15] you’re eating too many carbohydrates.
[25:17] >> Yeah.
[25:17] >> Back in the Paleolithic era, there was
[25:20] no rice, no noodles, none of that stuff
[25:22] . Wheat hadn’t been cultivated, rice
[25:24] hadn’t been cultivated, no other
[25:26] grains had been cultivated yet. For our
[25:29] species, the proportion of
[25:30] carbohydrates in our diet actually
[25:32] wasn't high.
[25:33] >> Fat, protein, and fiber were the main
[25:35] components.
[25:36] >> Yeah.
[25:36] >> But then, agriculture began about
[25:38] 10,000 years ago. Once agriculture
[25:40] started, everything changed, and the
[25:42] proportion of carbohydrates in our diet
[25:44] shot up.
[25:44] >> Right.
[25:45] >> And honestly, carbohydrates aren't
[25:47] strictly a good thing. Because once
[25:49] it's in your mouth, it turns into
[25:51] simple sugars, and when those sugars
[25:53] meet bacteria, they produce organic
[25:55] acids. Actually, the outermost layer of
[25:57] our teeth, the enamel, is extremely
[25:59] strong—second only to diamond.
[26:03] >> Under normal circumstances, teeth
[26:04] should last a lifetime, but these
[26:06] organic acids attach to the teeth and
[26:08] completely destroy the enamel. Easter
[26:13] Island, you know, is thousands of
[26:15] kilometers west of Chile today.
[26:17] >> The giant stone statues.
[26:18] >> That's the place with the giant stone
[26:20] statues. It once had the highest rate
[26:22] of tooth decay in the world. Back when
[26:24] the Polynesians were on that island, it
[26:26] was the worst place for cavities. Why?
[26:28] >> Because it’s an island, and
[26:30] freshwater resources were scarce.
[26:32] >> You couldn't drink seawater, so what
[26:34] were they supposed to do without enough
[26:35] freshwater?
[26:36] >> On the island, they mostly ate cassava
[26:38] and drank sugarcane juice.
[26:40] >> That is, the sweet sap from the plant.
[26:42] Even though it quenched their thirst,
[26:44] the carbohydrate content was extremely
[26:45] high. The Polynesians there started
[26:47] getting rotten teeth at 14, and by 20,
[26:49] almost no one had healthy teeth, simply
[26:51] because the carbohydrate intake was too
[26:53] high.
[26:54] >> Lately, I’ve been hearing a new
[26:56] theory circulating among my friends.
[26:59] Some people are citing books by foreign
[27:01] authors, basically claiming that grains
[27:03] aren't good for you at all. Especially
[27:05] flour-based foods. There is even a
[27:08] medical expert who wrote a book about
[27:10] it. He argues that this is a cause of
[27:14] diabetes, claiming that all the starch
[27:16] humans consume is responsible for the
[27:18] disease, and some even go as far as to
[27:21] link it to many strokes—cerebral
[27:23] strokes.
[27:24] >> Oh, and dementia.
[27:26] >> Dementia is also said to be related to
[27:28] this, so now many people around me have
[27:30] stopped eating staples and just eat
[27:32] meat and vegetables.
[27:34] >> Is eating meat good? Is eating a lot of
[27:36] meat good?
[27:36] >> There are books for both sides. There
[27:38] are theories for both sides.
[27:40] >> Right, some say eating too much meat is
[27:41] bad.
[27:42] >> I’ve experienced this myself, let me
[27:43] tell you from personal experience. You
[27:45] might have heard of a weight-loss
[27:47] method called the keto diet, where you
[27:49] basically cut out all carbohydrates and
[27:51] just eat fat, protein, fiber, and drink
[27:53] lots of water. From my own personal
[27:56] experience, carbohydrates do indeed
[27:57] convert into fat at a very high rate,
[27:59] but once I gave those things up, my
[28:01] body fat percentage started dropping at
[28:03] a rate almost visible to the naked eye.
[28:07] But there are downsides, two of them.
[28:09] First, a weird taste in the mouth, like
[28:11] a metallic taste.
[28:13] >> Then, the second point is that my brain
[28:15] didn't work as well. During the time I
[28:17] wasn't eating carbohydrates, I would
[28:19] often involuntarily zone out, and my
[28:21] eyes would lose focus. Actually, for
[28:23] the brain to function.
[28:24] >> Dopamine secretion is too deep.
[28:26] >> For the brain to function, it needs
[28:28] some carbohydrates no matter what.
[28:30] >> Or things that can be converted into
[28:32] sugar.
[28:32] >> Yes. The first time I went to Chongqing
[28:36] , I had hot pot, and that was quite
[28:38] interesting. I had never seen it before
[28:41] .
[28:41] >> It was the hottest part of summer, and
[28:43] there was no air conditioning.
[28:45] >> Everyone was shirtless.
[28:47] >> Called "ba bang"(shirtless).
[28:49] >> Besides being shirtless, no one cared
[28:51] who anyone was.
[28:52] >> Right.
[28:53] >> The table was separated into squares.
[28:55] >> Hmm, nine-grid?
[28:57] >> The nine-grid isn't actually nine,
[28:59] there were clearly eight, and then I
[29:01] sat down with someone else. It was so
[29:04] hot, I was soaked from the chili. I was
[29:07] embarrassed; I thought I was still a
[29:09] gentleman and couldn't eat shirtless.
[29:11] The food I put in was gone. It was only
[29:14] separated on the top layer, but
[29:15] connected at the bottom.
[29:17] >> Right, so it flows.
[29:18] >> I went to check, and it was gone.
[29:21] >> Up.
[29:21] >> It ran to that side.
[29:23] >> The guy next to me grabbed it and ate
[29:25] it. I was too embarrassed to say "
[29:28] that's mine," but he didn't care which
[29:30] grid it was in. Honestly, you can't
[29:33] leave it. That was my first time, it
[29:36] choked me up because I wasn't prepared,
[29:39] it was so spicy. I was crying and my
[29:41] nose was running at the same time. That
[29:43] was what I ate. It was my first time
[29:45] having spicy hot pot, all red, no "
[29:47] yin-yang" pot or anything, just a thick
[29:50] layer of beef tallow on top.
[29:51] >> Beef tallow, yes, Chongqing is beef
[29:53] tallow hot pot.
[29:54] >> It must be beef tallow.
[29:55] >> Chengdu isn't beef tallow, right?
[29:57] Chongqing is called clear oil hot pot,
[29:59] you know, light oil pot.
[30:00] >> This is called beef tallow pot.
[30:01] >> They never change that broth.
[30:02] >> Hmm.
[30:03] >> Even if they heat it up tomorrow, it's
[30:04] the same one for life.
[30:05] >> They filter it.
[30:06] >> Old broth.
[30:07] >> Old broth.
[30:08] >> Is this "old broth" thing actually
[30:10] reasonable?
[30:13] >> Of course, its so-called flavor
[30:15] molecules can continuously break down
[30:17] and break down. If you go to a clear
[30:22] broth store, you are definitely better
[30:24] off arriving half an hour later than
[30:26] others, because they are eating it at
[30:28] the beginning when it’s not yet
[30:30] fragrant. It has to be heated
[30:34] constantly, so there's a logic to
[30:36] century-old stocks. So, drinking
[30:38] someone else's bathwater tastes better,
[30:40] is that it? But
[30:41] >> Right, right, what he said reminds me
[30:43] ...
[30:44] >> But look, you're different from
[30:45] Cantonese people. See, in Hong Kong,
[30:47] Cantonese people seem to like what you
[30:49] mentioned in the documentary: fresh
[30:51] ingredients, often just in plain water.
[30:54] >> This fresh ingredient style has nothing
[30:55] to do with that; they just want the
[30:57] original taste of the ingredients.
[30:59] >> Exactly.
[31:00] >> People from Sichuan and Chongqing, they
[31:03] want the flavor of the hot pot base. Mm
[31:05] .
[31:07] >> I mean, if you think about it, tripe,
[31:09] duck blood, brains—these things don't
[31:11] actually taste that good when you cook
[31:14] them properly.
[31:16] >> They are basically offal; they aren't
[31:18] inherently delicious.
[31:20] >> And they might even have a gamey smell.
[31:22] Yes, yes, that’s an accurate
[31:24] description, it’s just...
[31:25] >> They only taste good when they're in
[31:27] that......
[31:28] >> dipped for a moment. There's also
[31:30] Chaoshan beef hot pot, which is very
[31:32] popular where we are. What are its
[31:34] characteristics?
[31:37] >> That is actually because they only use
[31:39] a tiny portion of the cow's meat to cut
[31:41] into slices for the hot pot. The other
[31:47] parts require long cooking times, or
[31:49] are too tough, or have too much gristle
[31:51] , so they can't be used. It’s only
[31:56] cuts like, as we say, the "chibi," or "
[31:58] chiren," the three-flower or
[32:00] five-flower brisket. These are just
[32:04] thin strips of meat on the cow, then
[32:06] they're sliced up for everyone to eat.
[32:09] This is where Chaoshan people are
[32:11] incredibly, incredibly precise.
[32:14] >> Mm-hmm.
[32:15] >> Teacher, I have a question for you.
[32:18] Back in the day, a food critic from
[32:20] Hong Kong came to Beijing to ask how to
[32:23] eat instant-boiled mutton. A Beijing
[32:26] food critic told him how. Mr. Hou Lin
[32:29] told him that instant-boiled mutton is
[32:31] just dumping a whole plate of meat in
[32:33] at once.
[32:34] >> Mm.
[32:35] >> And then you scoop it out and eat it.
[32:36] >> Mm.
[32:37] >> He was really confused at the time.
[32:39] >> Mm.
[32:41] >> Later, he asked another Beijing food
[32:43] critic. He asked, "Isn't instant-boiled
[32:46] mutton supposed to be boiled one slice
[32:48] at a time?""How could it be so crude?"
[32:51] The critic replied, "That’s only
[32:53] because you're too poor to boil them
[32:55] one by one.""Wealthy families in the
[32:57] past would just throw the whole lot in
[32:59] at once."
[33:00] >> They say this style of hot pot isn't
[33:02] originally Han Chinese; it was brought
[33:04] over by nomadic tribes.
[33:06] >> This way of eating, sharing a communal
[33:08] meal, having everyone around a table,
[33:10] is actually quite barbaric.
[33:11] >> In the past, we each had our own
[33:12] portion—that was much more civilized.
[33:14] Was it individual dining?
[33:15] >> Yes, individual dining in the past.
[33:17] >> Before the Song Dynasty, before square
[33:18] tables, everyone had their own portions
[33:20] .
[33:20] >> Not only did we move away from
[33:21] individual portions, but the round
[33:23] table makes it feel even more barbaric.
[33:25] >> Our style of serving meals wasn't just
[33:27] individual plates; it was one stone
[33:29] table per person, each in our own room.
[33:31] "
[33:31] >> Hongmen Banquet" style, each with their
[33:33] own, right. There’s a place in
[33:35] Beijing now that serves food that way.
[33:37] If you’d like, I can take you there.
[33:38] It feels a bit strange—ten people
[33:40] standing 300 meters apart, shouting, "
[33:42] Wentao, how’s the flavor of your dish
[33:44] ?" It feels like Liu Bang and Xiang Yu,
[33:46] right? Exactly, just like being in a
[33:48] movie.
[33:49] >> That’s how it is in Beijing; based on
[33:51] my experience, I’m not talking about
[33:53] the higher-ups here.
[33:55] >> When I was a kid, the lamb we ate
[33:57] wasn’t machine-sliced at all.
[33:59] >> Mm.
[33:59] >> It wasn’t sliced frozen; it was
[34:01] sliced fresh, never having been frozen.
[34:03] The most impressive part back then was
[34:05] this southeast area.
[34:06] >> They’d slice it right there in the
[34:08] courtyard during the bitter cold of
[34:09] winter, letting you watch because most
[34:11] people couldn't afford it.
[34:13] >> Mm.
[34:14] >> I see, that point is really important
[34:16] —who eats nothing but meat for a meal
[34:18] ? You’d have to be incredibly wealthy
[34:21] , right?
[34:23] >> This instant-boiled lamb in the
[34:25] freezing wind—the meat wasn't frozen,
[34:27] it was semi-soft. I remember the young
[34:29] men had great cleaver skills.
[34:31] >> With one slice, it was perfect. We
[34:33] never bought such large chunks of meat
[34:35] at home, so we never got to cut it
[34:36] ourselves. Back then, we’d buy twenty
[34:38] cents worth of meat—such a small
[34:40] strip—you’d cut it into tiny,
[34:42] awkward bits, right? When they sliced
[34:44] it right there, it was addictive. If
[34:45] you were wealthy, you’d just dump the
[34:47] whole lot in. What I mean by "
[34:49] satisfying" is how it was sliced into
[34:50] these thin, perfectly even pieces. If
[34:52] you were poor, could you really afford
[34:54] to let it cook that easily?
[34:55] >> Lamb is cooked the moment it hits the
[34:56] water; it’s even edible raw.
[34:58] >> Just a quick dip. Nowadays, meat is our
[35:00] biggest struggle; life is too good, we
[35:02] can’t even finish it.
[35:04] >> In the beginning, we could eat; back in
[35:06] the 80s, we had some money. We’d
[35:07] order two pounds each. Wang Shuo and
[35:09] the others were all there, as soon as
[35:11] we walked in. Right at the door, one
[35:13] table. Two pounds per person; ten
[35:15] people, 20 pounds served at once. The
[35:16] server would be stunned, asking, "Can
[35:17] you really eat all that?" I’d say, "
[35:19] Don’t worry if I can't, just bring it
[35:20] out," and we’d finish it all.
[35:21] >> Really. That two pounds of meat was a
[35:23] solid, honest two pounds.
[35:25] >> We ate it all. If you’re young, you
[35:27] can digest any amount of lamb. Pork
[35:29] doesn't work that way; two pounds of
[35:31] pork and you’re basically done for.
[35:33] That’s really why people eat more at
[35:35] hotpot than with regular dishes.
[35:36] >> If your mom stir-fried all that lamb
[35:38] instead, you’d never finish it.
[35:40] >> Exactly, exactly. What Professor Ma
[35:42] just said about communal versus
[35:44] individual dining is quite interesting.
[35:47] Please correct me if I’m wrong. No,
[35:49] no, no, you're not wrong at all.
[35:51] >> The National Museum has something
[35:53] similar to a hot pot, but it was
[35:54] clearly for individual dining. It’s a
[35:57] bronze "ran," consisting of three parts
[35:59] : top, middle, and bottom.
[36:01] >> At the bottom is a bronze stove where
[36:03] you put fuel for heating, and on top is
[36:05] a bronze structure resembling an
[36:06] ear-cup. So, during the Han Dynasty,
[36:09] there was already a concept similar to
[36:11] eating hot pot. It wasn't like today,
[36:13] where you cook meat and dip it in sauce
[36:15] . Back then, they would put the sauce
[36:18] in the vessel above, heat it from below
[36:20] , and cook the raw meat directly in the
[36:22] sauce. That’s what sauce was back
[36:24] then.
[36:25] >> How is that character "ran" written?
[36:26] >> Like the "ran" in "pollution."
[36:28] >> The "ran" in "dye." Right, back then,
[36:30] they called it dipping sauce, cooking
[36:31] raw meat in this "ran." This act was
[36:33] called "ran." But back then, everyone
[36:35] ate individual portions, so they
[36:36] weren't at the same table. I’d be
[36:38] really annoying—if Professor Xiaoqing
[36:39] had meat cooking but wasn't paying
[36:41] attention because he was talking to
[36:42] Professor Ma, I’d take the
[36:43] opportunity to use my fingers to grab
[36:45] the meat he was cooking in his cup and
[36:47] eat it. If you did that, he'd be like,
[36:48] "Why are you so disgusting?"
[36:50] >> That kind of behavior is very annoying,
[36:51] and my act of sticking my fingers in to
[36:53] take someone else's meat is known as "
[36:54] ranzhi"(dipping fingers).
[36:55] >> So that’s where "ranzhi" comes from?
[36:57] The term "ranzhi" originated this way?
[37:00] >> Doesn't it imply something derogatory?
[37:02] It refers to an intrusion or harassment
[37:04] of someone else.
[37:05] >> Oh, and later it transitioned to
[37:06] referring to harassing women as well.
[37:09] >> I was in Chongqing once, and there used
[37:11] to be an incredible hot pot restaurant
[37:13] there called Dongzikou. It was opened
[37:17] in an air-raid shelter by an artist. Do
[37:22] you know how amazing this person was?
[37:27] For instance, if someone said, "Boss,
[37:29] the flavor isn't rich enough." He’d
[37:34] walk over with a fan, stand in front of
[37:36] your pot, and literally stick his
[37:38] fingers into your boiling hot pot to
[37:40] taste it. That’s also a kind of "
[37:44] ranzhi." Sticking my fingers into a
[37:47] boiling pot—it shows you’re not an
[37:49] outsider. People who always do this,
[37:53] first of all, they have a high
[37:55] tolerance for heat.
[37:56] >> Hmm.
[37:56] >> I’ve seen it with my own eyes; back
[37:58] in the day, everyone used
[37:59] coal-briquette stoves, and those stoves
[38:01] were glowing red.
[38:03] >> We were chatting away, he takes out a
[38:04] cigarette and tosses a ball of
[38:06] something at me. I was stunned—only a
[38:08] real veteran would dare do that—but
[38:10] he was totally fine with it. It’s
[38:12] like when I’m with those old-timers.
[38:14] >> He sees your head and thinks it looks a
[38:16] bit like it too.
[38:16] >> Right? Because you’d think, isn't
[38:18] this just a tomato? He says no, this is
[38:20] a potato. You eat potatoes, right? A
[38:22] potato. Then he gives you one to taste
[38:24] so you’ll buy it. So you can run into
[38:27] things in the market you’ve never
[38:28] seen before. And you can see a lot of
[38:32] things you never imagined people would
[38:33] use as ingredients. Like in a Spanish
[38:37] market—specifically in Seville—I
[38:39] saw a stall selling nothing but rabbit.
[38:42] >> Oh right, Spaniards eat rabbit heads.
[38:44] >> Yeah, I said these rabbit heads, aren't
[38:46] they like the ones in Shaanxi? They
[38:48] really were rabbit heads, and a whole
[38:49] stall full of them. I asked if there
[38:51] was a difference between them. There is
[38:52] a difference. Where is this rabbit head
[38:54] from? And where is that rabbit head
[38:56] from? Can you see these things anywhere
[38:58] else?
[38:59] >> But it seems like these wet markets are
[39:01] disappearing in many places. Even the
[39:04] one in Tokyo, the Tsukiji market, isn't
[39:06] it moving? Because of the Olympics or
[39:09] something, but they’re moving it to a
[39:11] place over two kilometers away.
[39:14] >> Some say it’s become a must-visit
[39:16] spot for tourists from all over the
[39:18] world. But they say it’s not very
[39:21] clean inside. Compared to what you said
[39:24] —like some markets in China—people
[39:26] think they’re messy and chaotic. How
[39:29] do you interpret that?
[39:32] >> Well, things are generally getting
[39:34] better, but our lifestyle habits are
[39:36] improving bit by bit. You can't just
[39:42] demand they all be pristine right now;
[39:44] that’s likely too fast. Netflix made
[39:49] a show called Street Food.
[39:51] >> Right.
[39:53] >> It’s all about street stalls.
[39:57] >> Beyond just seeing the delicious food
[39:59] at these street stalls, the bigger
[40:01] realization is that if I don’t see it
[40:03] today, it might be gone in a little
[40:05] while. Why do I always go to the market
[40:09] every time I’m in Xiamen? Because
[40:12] urban renewal is inevitable, just like
[40:15] the markets in Hong Kong. There used to
[40:19] be markets and Dai Pai Dongs, but
[40:21] there’s too much involved now.
[40:24] >> I want to take you to eat some braised
[40:26] pork rice. It’s on the second floor
[40:28] of the Beitou market, and it’s only
[40:29] open for three hours a day. Oh man,
[40:31] they’re so arrogant—once they
[40:33] finish making it, they just leave. Hey,
[40:35] that braised pork rice...even now,
[40:37] whenever you say the words "braised
[40:39] pork rice," I remember filming a
[40:41] Taiwanese mom making it in Dongguan a
[40:44] while back. I just saw the braised pork
[40:46] rice on the monitor, and as soon as it
[40:48] came out with the pickled mustard
[40:50] greens, I thought, "Oh my," and it
[40:51] reminded me of that braised pork rice
[40:53] at the Beitou wet market. It’s really
[40:56] gone now; if that market disappeared,
[40:58] then that stall is gone too. You don't
[41:00] know, hearing that just made me hungry.
[41:02] Xiaoqing, you say braised pork rice
[41:04] tastes best at the market. I’ll share
[41:07] what my teacher used to tell me, he
[41:09] often reminded me that...
[41:11] >> Reliving the past is actually
[41:13] destroying it.
[41:14] >> So, if you ate that braised pork rice
[41:16] once, you still want to go back and eat
[41:18] it again? Because you just said that
[41:20] whenever you think of braised pork rice
[41:21] , you think of that market. You
[41:23] absolutely shouldn't go back; if you do
[41:25] , you can't go back to how it was—
[41:27] it’ll ruin the memory. Like when
[41:29] I’m in Taipei, every time I go, I
[41:31] love to go across from Taiwan
[41:32] University...that...my...
[41:36] >> Uh, opposite...my alma mater isn't
[41:38] Taiwan University, it's across from
[41:40] Taiwan University.
[41:42] >> Is it still across from Taiwan
[41:44] University, your alma mater?
[41:45] >> He went to night school, right?
[41:47] >> The one opposite is a wet market, is it
[41:49] Shuiyuan Market, or Gongguan? It should
[41:51] be Shuiyuan Market. Markets in Taiwan
[41:53] and Hong Kong both have food stalls
[41:55] next to them, it's very strange. When
[41:57] you sell food next to a market, or
[41:59] rather, sell food inside a wet market,
[42:01] eating there just makes it taste better
[42:03] . It’s strange, is it just a
[42:06] psychological effect? You feel like
[42:09] since they sell meat and vegetables
[42:10] right next to you, it must be fresher.
[42:15] Actually, that shouldn't be the case;
[42:17] it’s mostly about the cooking method.
[42:20] I had the turkey rice I miss most there
[42:22] , yeah...
[42:23] >> Turkey rice? I thought it was...
[42:25] >> The one with the meat is turkey rice.
[42:28] Right, back when I was in college, and
[42:30] long after I graduated, I took my
[42:32] daughter back to eat it, thinking I’d
[42:34] relive the memory. Sure enough, it was
[42:37] "destroying the memory."
[42:39] >> The rice, of course, wasn't as good as
[42:41] it used to be. And the lady who sold
[42:43] the rice had become an older auntie.
[42:47] Yes, she became an auntie, and that
[42:49] ruined the memory. Back when we were
[42:52] college students, she was still very
[42:54] pretty. You've become an old uncle, why
[42:56] wouldn't she become an auntie? Alright,
[42:58] never mind.
[42:59] >> She was like the Tofu Beauty, forever
[43:01] in my heart. But you were talking about
[43:03] the wet market, with the food stalls
[43:05] right next to it.
[43:05] >> Inside, it's just inside.
[43:07] >> Yes, I have a memory, it really is
[43:09] quite different from eating at a
[43:11] restaurant. We, we went to Sydney,
[43:13] Sydney, Australia, and they have this
[43:15] kind of seafood market where they
[43:17] prepare it for you. Oh, the lobster,
[43:19] and that sweet crab—that crab meat
[43:22] was sweet. You know, it was the first
[43:24] time I had that feeling, because it’s
[43:26] a market, they just have a few stalls
[43:28] and they prepare it for you. Looking at
[43:31] the market, you step outside onto a
[43:33] stretch of grass, and lots of locals
[43:35] and foreigners in Sydney were eating
[43:37] just like that, sitting on the grass,
[43:39] you know, holding this—just a whole
[43:41] lobster.
[43:42] >> Like bread, it was my first time eating
[43:44] lobster like that, finished it and then
[43:46] went to buy more; you know, it’s a
[43:48] kind of accessibility. Right, Chelsea
[43:51] Market in Manhattan also has a lobster
[43:53] place that’s very famous too.
[43:57] >> Another one is the Paul Bocuse market
[43:59] in France.
[44:00] >> So, what do you want to eat? Which
[44:02] sausages from around the world are you
[44:04] interested in?
[44:05] >> They have them all.
[44:05] >> They have everything; whatever French
[44:07] cheese you’re interested in, you can
[44:09] almost always find it. Actually, it’s
[44:12] like this: we easily assume a market is
[44:14] great just because the ingredients are
[44:16] fresh and local, but it’s more than
[44:19] that; we also have to consider the
[44:20] people who know how to eat and cook. We
[44:24] usually think of chefs or food critics,
[44:27] but we often overlook the people who
[44:29] sell us the produce and meat. For
[44:32] example, when we go to markets in Hong
[44:34] Kong, you often notice new housewives
[44:36] or young men who didn't know how to
[44:38] cook before get familiar with the
[44:40] vendors and ask, "Hey, how do you eat
[44:42] this?""How do you cook this well?" They
[44:46] will teach you. Then think about it,
[44:48] these people know how to eat themselves
[44:50] , and who were the food stalls in these
[44:52] markets originally selling to? Today,
[44:54] of course, many markets around the
[44:56] world have become touristy, like
[44:57] Tsukiji is the most obvious, or that
[44:59] market in Barcelona which is full of
[45:01] tourists, or Sai Kung in Hong Kong.
[45:03] >> Right, those are for tourists. But the
[45:07] thing is, originally, the food stalls
[45:09] by the market weren't for outside
[45:11] customers; they were for the market
[45:12] workers. Think about it: if I’m a
[45:16] fishmonger...
[45:19] >> And now I want to have breakfast and
[45:20] lunch at the fish market, eating fish.
[45:23] How do you think that person has to
[45:25] prepare it? So, they won't serve you
[45:27] incredibly expensive ingredients;
[45:29] they’ll use affordable ones. Since
[45:32] I'm just a regular diner, I don't need
[45:34] to eat premium tuna sashimi or fancy
[45:36] delicacies every day. It's unnecessary.
[45:39] You can give me something simple, as
[45:41] long as it's prepared well. I’ve
[45:44] found that even in touristy spots,
[45:46] there are places like the old Tsukiji
[45:48] market in Japan.
[45:50] >> At the Tsukiji market, a few shops are
[45:52] always packed with tourists—it's
[45:55] ridiculous. People wait from 8:00 AM
[45:58] until noon and still can't get in. But
[46:01] I discovered one place called "Ko-ko."
[46:04] Ko-ko.
[46:04] >> Ko-ko. I originally called it Ko-ko
[46:07] because it was written in Japanese.
[46:10] That place served breakfast, just
[46:12] steamed fish with white rice. Or
[46:14] grilled fish with rice. For the grilled
[46:16] fish, if you wanted something fancy,
[46:18] you could even get alfonsino.
[46:20] >> And that grilled fish was the best
[46:22] Japanese-style grilled fish I’ve ever
[46:24] had in my life. It was very cheap, and
[46:26] while there was a line, it was just the
[46:27] market workers during the morning shift
[46:29] . Why is the food in produce markets so
[46:31] exceptionally delicious?
[46:32] >> First, the ingredients are fresh.
[46:34] Second, they originally started by just
[46:36] processing the food.
[46:38] >> Mm. They started out processing it,
[46:40] then gradually became chefs themselves.
[46:46] >> They’re better than actual chefs
[46:47] because they know the ingredients
[46:49] inside out and really know how to
[46:50] prepare them. For instance, like the
[46:56] one mentioned at Tsukiji, near the
[46:58] Hibiya Line station, there’s a ramen
[47:00] shop called Inoue or something.
[47:04] >> That one is not for everyone; most
[47:06] people don't particularly love it
[47:08] because it’s a bit too salty.
[47:10] >> But Mr. Tsai absolutely loves going
[47:12] there. When I went to Hong Kong with
[47:15] Mr. Tsai, he drove a very long way to
[47:17] Aberdeen.
[47:19] >> And I asked, "Why are we coming all the
[47:21] way here just for a meal?" There are
[47:24] many little eateries there.
[47:25] >> Right, we went there, and the first
[47:27] thing he did was buy fish.
[47:29] >> Mm.
[47:31] >> The fishmonger chopped off the fish's
[47:33] mouth.
[47:36] >> Just the mouth. I asked, "Why?" It was
[47:39] caught on a line.
[47:39] >> Mm-hmm.
[47:40] >> Oh, it still had the fishhook in it.
[47:42] >> Exactly, exactly. Right, it wasn't
[47:44] caught in a net; it was hooked
[47:46] individually, meant for outsiders to
[47:48] eat.
[47:48] >> Aberdeen is where the fishermen are.
[47:52] >> That fish...
[47:52] >> The fact that they can be that precise
[47:54] —I think that’s what makes it
[47:55] reliable.
[47:56] >> That is the essence of a produce market
[47:58] .
[47:58] >> And you mentioned that the produce
[47:59] markets in Kunming are very famous.
[48:02] >> Yes, the markets in Kunming will really
[48:04] refresh your perspective, especially
[48:06] one called Zhuanxin Market.
[48:07] >> Zhuanxin Farmers Market is incredibly,
[48:10] incredibly large.
[48:11] >> It really sells everything; before dawn
[48:14] , they sell fresh flowers.
[48:16] >> Hmm, and once it's light out, there are
[48:19] many more vegetable stalls. If you were
[48:21] to flatten out Kunming, or rather
[48:23] flatten out Yunnan, it covers a huge
[48:25] part of China, and tucked into the
[48:27] folds of these mountains are all kinds
[48:29] of strange and delicious things. Oh,
[48:33] they’re all there, and they really
[48:35] love beauty, dressing themselves up so
[48:37] beautifully. Regular people, and
[48:40] influencers, go there and say they
[48:42] don’t have enough memory on their
[48:44] phones because it’s just too
[48:45] beautiful. There are all kinds of fish,
[48:49] shrimp, and especially all sorts of
[48:51] vegetables, like "stinky vegetables."
[48:54] >> You definitely haven't had them before.
[48:56] >> Yunnan stinky vegetables.
[48:57] >> Ah, stinky vegetables are actually very
[48:59] delicious.
[49:00] >> They are smelly. They smell very strong
[49:01] , but once you stir-fry them, they...
[49:03] >> I’ve noticed that everything in
[49:04] Yunnan turns into its opposite; you see
[49:05] , they often talk not about fragrance,
[49:07] but about stench.
[49:07] >> The smellier it is, the better it
[49:09] tastes.
[49:09] >> Although, what you mentioned...
[49:10] >> There are also all kinds of wild
[49:12] mushrooms.
[49:12] >> Yes.
[49:13] >> They know exactly what the season is,
[49:15] what should be available...
[49:17] >> Whatever should be in season, you can
[49:18] go there with expectations, and
[49:20] they’ll definitely have it.
[49:22] >> You know, what you’re talking about
[49:24] is the taste, it’s about the
[49:25] deliciousness. I’m talking about the
[49:28] visual aspect, or rather the feeling.
[49:29] For example, the Sanyuanli Market in
[49:32] Beijing is now an "influencer" market;
[49:34] they talk about online and offline
[49:36] traffic, meaning many girls go there
[49:38] with transparent shopping bags, fill
[49:40] them with a few colorful fruits and
[49:42] vegetables, snap a few photos, and
[49:44] their task for the day is done. Because
[49:47] it’s located near the embassy
[49:48] district, I’ve heard Sanyuanli is
[49:50] famous for having ingredients from all
[49:52] over the world.
[49:53] >> You can find everything, and now there
[49:55] are scholars launching books there.
[49:57] >> At the Sanyuanli Market.
[49:59] >> Yes, that’s it.
[50:00] >> They launch books, and as they walk
[50:02] around inside, they say, "Truly, when
[50:04] you come to a place like this, you have
[50:06] to marvel at how wonderful life is."
[50:08] >> One feeling I have, regarding the
[50:10] street markets in Hong Kong you
[50:12] mentioned...
[50:14] >> You know, it soothed my loneliness.
[50:17] >> Oh. Twenty years ago, when I first
[50:19] arrived in Hong Kong, do you know that
[50:21] my impression of Hong Kong's vibrancy
[50:22] came from those street markets? I
[50:24] don’t know if they are still as
[50:25] unique now as they were then. The
[50:27] coldest air conditioning in Hong Kong
[50:29] is in the vegetable markets, where
[50:31] people wear down jackets even in the
[50:33] middle of summer because it's freezing;
[50:35] I was literally shivering, but you know
[50:37] , back then I was all alone in Hong
[50:38] Kong with no one to turn to. So I would
[50:40] go there often. I was mesmerized by the
[50:42] lighting there. That orange-red,
[50:44] reddish glow.
[50:45] >> A warm light, or rather a light inside
[50:47] a red shade, a red cover.
[50:49] >> Honestly, I didn’t buy anything,
[50:51] I’d just walk around, looking at the
[50:54] vibrant colors of the vegetables—reds
[50:56] , yellows, greens, and whites, you know
[50:58] ? I’d just wander inside. Walking
[51:01] around inside, it felt strangely warm;
[51:03] even though it was freezing, I often
[51:05] felt a sense of human connection there.
[51:09] Nobody paid attention to me, but just
[51:11] walking around, looking at all that
[51:13] food—don’t you feel a rush? All
[51:15] that delicious food. I didn't actually
[51:17] buy anything, because I can’t cook—
[51:19] I don't have your talent—but I just
[51:21] loved looking at the colors, I really
[51:23] did.
[51:23] >> That’s right, wet markets can provide
[51:25] different kinds of comfort to different
[51:27] people. Like you mentioned, there’s a
[51:32] group of people who need to go to the
[51:34] market, the housewives, and they love
[51:36] chatting up the butchers selling pork,
[51:38] beef, and fish. Of course, the first
[51:43] thing they say when you walk in is,
[51:45] well, what do they call you? My mom
[51:49] hasn't been called "ma'am" in four
[51:51] years, so she’s happy, and they’ll
[51:53] always find something to compliment you
[51:55] on: "Your hair looks beautiful today,"
[51:57] or "Your outfit is lovely."
[52:00] >> Yes, as beautiful as this head of
[52:02] lettuce.
[52:03] >> Right, and besides those ladies, who
[52:05] else do I see chatting there? Domestic
[52:08] helpers. Like in the area where I lived
[52:13] in Hong Kong, or Kowloon City where Mr.
[52:15] Choi often went, there are certain
[52:17] stalls. For instance, there are many
[52:22] pork stalls, but one or two always have
[52:24] groups of Filipino or Indonesian
[52:25] helpers gathered around. Why? Beyond
[52:30] the fact that the sellers like to chat
[52:32] with them, what did I discover through
[52:34] my observations? They actually give
[52:38] them good deals, because for the
[52:39] helpers, say I give them a budget for
[52:41] groceries,
[52:46] >> Right, they have to report back to my
[52:48] wife, like "This meat cost 40 dollars,"
[52:50] and the boss usually plays along, they
[52:52] are like that, yes.
[52:57] >> Eventually, they get everything at a
[52:58] discount. Yeah, like when they write up
[53:01] a receipt for you, say you only bought
[53:03] 40 dollars 'worth, they’ll mark it 50
[53:05] or 45, that’s why everyone goes there
[53:07] .
[53:07] >> So supermarkets can’t provide that
[53:09] kind of service.
[53:10] >> Right, but that service isn't good. But
[53:13] what I mean is, listening to you really
[53:15] makes me think of a scholar who talked
[53:17] about the difference between
[53:18] supermarkets and wet markets. One of
[53:22] the reasons is the social needs of the
[53:23] elderly. Mm.
[53:25] >> Because only wet markets have these
[53:27] morning markets,
[53:28] >> and evening markets. The elderly all
[53:32] gather at these times, and he said a
[53:33] key difference is that in a supermarket
[53:35] , you’re looking at shelves and
[53:37] freezer cases,
[53:39] >> but in a wet market, you’re looking
[53:41] at people.
[53:42] >> They have tour guides.
[53:43] >> What kind of tour guides?
[53:44] >> The people selling the vegetables are
[53:46] the tour guides.
[53:47] >> They tell you the stories behind the
[53:48] produce. In the past agricultural
[53:50] society, our living radius was very
[53:52] small.
[53:52] >> Yes. Like at the entrance of our
[53:54] village, there might be a fair, right?
[53:57] Everyone goes there. The important
[53:59] thing is that I can see you, and you
[54:00] can see me.
[54:03] >> And all our daily necessities
[54:07] >> could be taken care of within one
[54:09] square kilometer—grain, pork,
[54:12] everything. We lived such a stable life
[54:15] . It’s like supermarkets actually
[54:18] >> destroyed that stable life. Do you
[54:23] think if someone spends their whole
[54:24] life loving food and working in the
[54:26] food industry, could it be that it
[54:28] starts with food, the poetry is food,
[54:30] the reality is food, and it ends with
[54:32] food? I sometimes wonder about this now
[54:36] .
[54:38] >> That’s a very big question. It’s
[54:43] true that some people live their whole
[54:45] lives in luxury, but when it comes to
[54:46] ...If you look at Professor Zhu
[54:52] Jiajin's "Record of Retirement from the
[54:55] Forbidden City" or look at Cixi's food,
[54:57] you realize it was actually very, very
[54:59] simple. It’s like, even if I have a
[55:02] huge garden, I can’t possess it all.
[55:06] I might only need one bowl to be
[55:07] satisfied. As for the rest, that whole
[55:11] table of dishes—bestowed on this
[55:13] person today, bestowed on that person
[55:15] tomorrow—it's just a formality. Oh, I
[55:20] saw a Finnish journalist, a
[55:21] Washington-based reporter, who recently
[55:23] wrote an article in Finland’s biggest
[55:25] newspaper. The headline was, "I miss
[55:27] Finnish food so much." And I thought, "
[55:29] My God, what kind of headline is that?"
[55:31] Who would ever miss Finnish food? He
[55:33] described how he was in the US, and he
[55:35] wanted to make something—maybe it was
[55:36] Finnish—I'm sorry, I'm looking at a
[55:38] translation, but it was basically some
[55:40] kind of berry pie, and he said no
[55:41] matter what, he couldn't find the
[55:43] ingredients in the supermarket. Then he
[55:45] analyzed that in the US, there are so
[55:47] many seasonal foods—you eat this from
[55:49] January to March, and that from
[55:51] February to another month—so he found
[55:53] that when he went to the supermarket,
[55:54] he was never sure what seasonal
[55:56] ingredients he would find that day. To
[55:58] us, I think this is called "fresh," but
[56:01] for him, his final conclusion was that
[56:03] in Finland, the supermarket guarantees
[56:05] a standard set of staples all year
[56:07] round. Things like tomatoes, cucumbers,
[56:09] and potatoes.
[56:10] >> There are some things that are
[56:11] available for all 12 months. They taste
[56:13] the same for all 12 months. When I go
[56:15] to a Finnish supermarket, sometimes I
[56:16] think, "Can't you bring in something
[56:18] new? Why is everything always the same?
[56:20] " But for Finns, this is a sense of
[56:22] stability, and he even thinks it’s a
[56:24] form of happiness. If I want to eat
[56:26] this pie in January, I can buy the
[56:28] ingredients, but in the US, I have to
[56:30] chase the holidays and follow the
[56:32] seasons; he feels that's a heavy mental
[56:34] burden.
[56:37] >> So he said the only other option is
[56:39] frozen food, which has that processed
[56:41] taste, so I found it so interesting
[56:43] that for some people, something
[56:44] monotonous and basic is actually a
[56:46] delicious taste they long for.
[56:49] >> I think this is really worth discussing
[56:51] , and I especially need to talk about
[56:53] it with you.
[56:54] >> Let me show you a picture first.
[56:56] Yesterday and the day before, I ate
[56:58] this meal. This meal, Professor Chen
[57:00] must know it, it's called "White People
[57:02] Food." But some people say that name is
[57:04] a bit discriminatory, so they gave it a
[57:07] new name: "Physiological Metrics Meal."
[57:09] Take a look at the next one, see? "
[57:11] >> Can't Die Meal," it's "Can't Die."
[57:16] >> I adopted this method because I gain
[57:18] weight so easily, really, I'm the type
[57:20] that if I eat one meal...The next day,
[57:22] you know? I measured it in the mirror.
[57:26] My...It's just water retention.
[57:30] >> One or two millimeters, yeah.
[57:32] >> I drew two lines on my mirror.
[57:36] >> I stand in that fixed spot, every night
[57:38] after I finish my planned meal, I take
[57:40] one look and I can tell.
[57:43] >> You could live-stream this project
[57:45] later.
[57:47] >> Guess how much I ate yesterday.
[57:49] >> Yeah, I just think it's too hard,
[57:51] because I'm currently, well, when I'm
[57:53] not filming, I'm just a chubby person.
[57:55] Mm.
[57:55] >> But I do film, and I always think,
[57:57] aren't people all a bit vain?
[57:58] >> Protecting the tools of production.
[58:00] >> Yeah.
[58:00] >> Protecting the tools of production.
[58:01] >> And honestly, I do have a psychological
[58:03] burden too.
[58:04] >> When I feel too fat, I get this sense
[58:06] of revulsion, I don't know why, but
[58:08] when I'm really heavy, I don't like
[58:09] talking to you all while hosting the
[58:11] show. You just, you know, get annoyed,
[58:13] you know what I mean? Just.
[58:16] >> What they call "sacrificing for art,"
[58:18] before a shoot, I might do some fasting
[58:21] —well, not fasting, just starving.
[58:25] >> For someone like me who gains weight
[58:27] easily, starving for two days shrinks
[58:29] me down a couple of millimeters.
[58:30] >> It's very obvious, so now in my daily
[58:33] life, I just eat this "grass," um.
[58:35] >> Just eat this "grass."
[58:36] >> Does it taste good?
[58:37] >> Ah.
[58:37] >> Does it taste good?
[58:39] >> That’s also a very interesting
[58:40] question. "Good"—that word "good" is
[58:42] all about definition.
[58:44] >> This question.
[58:45] >> So your brain tells you that this thing
[58:47] is good for your body. So that’s also
[58:50] a kind of "good."
[58:52] >> Let me tell you why it's so interesting
[58:53] . The first day, of course, it doesn't
[58:55] taste good. But people are always
[58:58] trying to pick the best of the bunch;
[58:59] I've decided to eat this for the whole
[59:01] week. And I even eat just one meal a
[59:04] day—you mentioned one meal of heavy,
[59:06] greasy, meaty food, right?
[59:08] >> My one meal is just this.
[59:10] >> When you do it like this, you know what
[59:12] happens? The next morning, when you
[59:14] wake up, the first thing you think is,
[59:16] "Oh great, I can have that salad again.
[59:18] " With that avocado, and a boiled egg
[59:21] —it’s got an egg, after all—and
[59:24] some chicken breast, and especially it
[59:26] comes with, I must have that sesame
[59:27] dressing, it has to be sesame dressing.
[59:31] One time they gave me vinegar and I got
[59:32] annoyed, it has to be sesame dressing.
[59:35] Oh, I think, but they say this is the
[59:37] healthiest. Finland—A friend of mine
[59:40] went to Finland for an interview, and
[59:41] it was an event hosted by the Finnish
[59:43] government. Then, he said, and I said,
[59:46] "I'll treat you to some Finnish food,
[59:47] or should I take you for Chinese food?"
[59:50] He said, "No, thank you, I actually
[59:51] really liked the meals they gave us." I
[59:54] said, "What did they give you?" I could
[59:56] probably guess; the Finns can't offer
[59:58] much else besides salmon and potatoes.
[60:00] >> And most importantly, lettuce. And then
[60:03] , he said he was just happy eating
[60:05] lettuce. He said it was the first time
[60:08] he knew what truly fresh vegetables
[60:10] were, the taste of each vegetable, and
[60:12] what they tasted like when combined. So
[60:15] he tried it every day, just to open up
[60:17] his palate.
[60:18] >> Because he was like that.
[60:19] >> And then he started loving "grass."
[60:21] >> Right, it's just because of that.
[60:23] Suppose you were put in a prison in
[60:24] some country. This prison mandates that
[60:27] you only eat this healthy meal, right?
[60:29] >> You would also find it delicious. You
[60:30] would find it delicious; you'd think
[60:32] about it every day. But people nowadays
[60:35] just fence themselves in like that. So,
[60:38] I mentioned that in the books you write
[60:40] , you sometimes talk about the special
[60:42] nature of life. I've found that some
[60:46] cultural researchers say this is
[60:47] actually a kind of security that modern
[60:49] people set for themselves; they limit
[60:51] themselves and fence themselves in.
[60:55] Even looking at things like body shape,
[60:57] you have to be like Jiahui, an urban
[60:58] white-collar worker. Take you,
[61:01] Professor Chen, if you went to work at
[61:03] a company now, it wouldn't quite look
[61:04] like that.
[61:06] >> You must have definitely thought about
[61:08] this issue. It really just comes down
[61:11] to what eating means to us.
[61:13] >> Hmm.
[61:14] >> If eating is for survival, it's just to
[61:16] keep you alive. I think it's like two
[61:23] people getting married to have
[61:24] offspring. Actually, two people being
[61:30] together can involve other things
[61:32] related to your physical and
[61:33] psychological well-being. It's not just
[61:37] about producing offspring. There might
[61:40] be many beautiful things between the
[61:42] two of you.
[61:43] >> There has to be other entertainment.
[61:46] Right, food might be the same. If it's
[61:51] just for survival, then food might feel
[61:54] a bit more serious.
[61:58] >> It's just like being told to hurry up
[62:00] and have a child.
[62:02] >> Like completing a task. Yes.
[62:04] >> Then, what do I get out of it for
[62:06] myself? I think this aspect is very
[62:09] important.
[62:13] >> Speaking of pigs again.
[62:18] >> Uh, my son likes sour strawberries. It
[62:22] might actually just be our definition
[62:24] or interpretation of him; it's an
[62:25] explanatory system. What I express and
[62:28] what you express might actually be
[62:30] different, even though we are both
[62:32] eating. However, when I eat, it may not
[62:37] just be for my physiological needs or
[62:39] my taste requirements; I am also
[62:40] satisfying my psychological needs, and
[62:42] through eating, I might understand this
[62:44] world a bit more richly. If I were his
[62:52] friend from Finland in Washington, I
[62:54] might think, "Oh, so people living with
[62:56] four seasons are different from us,"
[62:58] especially spring and autumn, which are
[63:00] not rare things.
[63:06] >> He might come to understand something
[63:08] else; that is, through eating, through
[63:10] the produce in the supermarket, and
[63:12] through one's own dining table, you can
[63:14] learn much more. It makes me feel more
[63:18] fulfilled. Even if I just eat white
[63:21] rice,
[63:22] >> ah,
[63:23] >> I still make it a little bit seasonal.
[63:25] For example, I would pair it with water
[63:28] bamboo. Oh.
[63:29] >> Water bamboo, it...
[63:31] >> It has a bit of sweetness, right?
[63:33] It’s not just the sweetness; with
[63:35] water bamboo, you basically don't need
[63:37] to add oil. Just put it in the pan,
[63:39] keep it on low heat, and use chopsticks
[63:41] to slowly turn it. Once it’s cooked,
[63:44] you’ll just know that taste. It’s
[63:47] reached Xiaoman, or perhaps Mangzhong;
[63:49] you’ll feel the earth rotating.
[63:52] It’s wonderful, truly wonderful. Also
[63:55] , having lived in Northern Europe for a
[63:57] long time, although I still really miss
[63:59] Asian food—like spicy hot pot or
[64:01] other bold flavors—I have to admit, I
[64:03] don't know if I convinced myself or
[64:05] what, but after eating it for about two
[64:07] days upon returning, I start to miss
[64:09] that...
[64:11] >> food without sauces, because you
[64:12] suddenly realize that your tongue
[64:16] >> can distinguish what is an artificial
[64:18] flavor. Mm.
[64:20] >> It’s the sauces, it’s very easy. I
[64:22] think that’s our essence, in Taiwan
[64:24] too, like those street snacks. We
[64:26] realize that if you remove the sauce,
[64:28] you find that you don't actually like
[64:30] that food all that much. So we have a
[64:32] bottle of chili sauce at home, supplied
[64:34] forever by my mother-in-law in Taiwan,
[64:36] because when my husband eats it, he
[64:37] thinks of his childhood, right? It
[64:39] connects to so many memories, and, to
[64:41] put it bluntly, if you add that to
[64:43] anything, he thinks everything tastes
[64:45] good.
[64:46] >> He doesn't care at all; even if you
[64:47] give him a mung bean pastry and add
[64:49] that chili sauce, he might think it’s
[64:51] perfectly edible.
[64:52] >> Adding ketchup works too; it’s the
[64:54] same as some children who always eat
[64:55] ketchup. So I discovered that sauces
[64:58] control many things, but if you go to
[65:00] Finland and remove the sauces, you are
[65:02] half-forced to appreciate the flavor
[65:03] the food is supposed to have. But if
[65:06] you look at it from another angle, some
[65:08] say sauces are an extension of
[65:10] civilization.
[65:12] >> So you think primitive, natural things
[65:14] are good,
[65:16] >> but we were later conditioned by sauces
[65:18] so our tongues couldn't tell the
[65:19] difference, and later we were retrained
[65:21] to understand them again. Yet, these
[65:23] sauces themselves are an accumulation
[65:25] of civilization, aren't they?
[65:29] >> Eating what with what, salty or sweet,
[65:31] and food always has emotion—
[65:33] interpreted as' feeling '—which is
[65:35] the emotional part. So, for example,
[65:40] regarding strawberries, how many does
[65:42] your child eat?
[65:44] >> 500 grams.
[65:46] >> 500 grams.
[65:47] >> 500 grams is already. As I listened,
[65:51] what came to mind wasn't you as a child
[65:53] , but myself, because of strawberries
[65:55] when we were young. At what age did you
[65:58] start eating strawberries? Around seven
[66:00] or eight, I suppose, they were
[66:02] expensive things in Hong Kong.
[66:04] >> When my family bought them, we'd get
[66:06] two or three, and ten people would
[66:08] share them. It's no exaggeration, we'd
[66:11] basically take just one. I’d take a
[66:14] bite, then you’d take a bite, we took
[66:17] turns.
[66:19] >> Looking back, of course, it feels very
[66:21] warm and sweet, that we enjoyed them
[66:23] together. But back then, economic
[66:28] conditions were poor, so listening to
[66:30] your childhood story reminded me of
[66:32] that, and I couldn't help but......get
[66:34] a bit nostalgic.
[66:38] >> But honestly, I think what you said is
[66:40] really a philosophical question. Mhm.
[66:43] >> It's about the original taste; why do
[66:45] people call it "white people food"?
[66:49] Some say don't call it that, as it
[66:51] reflects how Chinese people have
[66:52] started to gaze back at white people.
[66:55] In the past, white people gazed at
[66:57] Orientals, right? Now we call it "white
[67:00] people food," but there is a perception
[67:02] that they cook with less oil and
[67:04] stir-frying.
[67:05] >> Yes. But if it's all like that, then
[67:08] where is China in all this? You have to
[67:10] tell us about that. And I have to cite
[67:14] some data you analyzed, this is from
[67:16] CCTV. From their show "A Bite of China,
[67:19] " they have very precise viewership
[67:21] data on what audiences love most.
[67:24] >> You say it yourself, what is third?
[67:27] >> Third is fatty foods,
[67:30] >> like braised pork belly and such.
[67:32] >> Second is staple foods. Things like
[67:36] steamed buns,
[67:37] >> or rice.
[67:38] >> Scallion pancakes,
[67:40] >> Mhm. First is staple foods wrapped
[67:44] around fatty foods.
[67:48] >> Like a meat burger or something.
[67:51] >> So when you talk about changing tastes,
[67:53] you have to consider human nature,
[67:54] especially the Chinese palate.
[67:57] >> Mhm.
[67:57] >> Why is there this contradiction?
[67:59] >> This was also cultivated bit by bit.
[68:02] Mhm.
[68:03] >> Weren't we like this from the beginning
[68:05] ?
[68:06] >> At the beginning, most of the time, in
[68:08] many places, people were hungry.
[68:11] >> Yes, that's right, exactly.
[68:14] >> So, as I said earlier, we didn't have
[68:16] that "healthy feedback" loop.
[68:21] >> Actually, regarding how we eat and the
[68:23] "white people food" trend, I think
[68:24] there are many ways to look at it.
[68:28] >> Right. I once met an old professor who
[68:33] told me, "Xiao, you make these
[68:34] incredibly tempting foods every day;
[68:37] sometimes even I am tempted by you."
[68:43] But I think a mature society is one
[68:45] where people shouldn't spend so much of
[68:47] their energy on food. I look at some
[68:51] developed countries, they eat very
[68:53] simply, and their people have more time
[68:55] to think about issues. That’s how I
[69:03] see it; perhaps for someone like me who
[69:05] uses food as a daily subject, yes.
[69:12] >> For someone like me, I can even sit at
[69:14] a table while others are eating and not
[69:16] touch a thing from start to finish. I
[69:19] can do that.
[69:20] >> Aren't you tempted?
[69:21] >> I am, but with repeated training, you
[69:23] stop being tempted. Oh, just like you,
[69:29] when it's time to record a show, a
[69:31] sense of responsibility keeps me going,
[69:33] but I won't reduce my meals because
[69:35] eating isn't just significant for the
[69:37] individual, it has social meaning.
[69:43] >> You eat together with your family.
[69:45] >> Are you saying you only eat one meal a
[69:47] day now?
[69:47] >> Yes, how else could you reduce it?
[69:50] >> I could cut it down to one meal, but I
[69:51] could sit next to you during the second
[69:53] meal. Watching you eat with the smile
[69:58] of a zookeeper—now that is high-end.
[70:03] You’ve talked a lot about the
[70:05] physiology, psychology, and aesthetics
[70:07] of eating.
[70:10] >> It reminds me of a passage from a novel
[70:12] I read.
[70:13] >> Mm. "
[70:14] >> The Green Tree."
[70:16] >> Mm.
[70:16] >> The male protagonist in Zhang
[70:18] Xianliang's "The Green Tree." He helps
[70:20] a woman repair a table, and she takes a
[70:23] liking to him. Then, she hands him a
[70:25] steamed bun. I can practically recite
[70:29] this passage by heart.
[70:31] >> Mm.
[70:32] >> He says I've lived for over twenty
[70:34] years. It’s been eight years. Since
[70:38] I’ve touched, what’s it called,
[70:40] wheat flour.
[70:42] >> Mm.
[70:43] >> Just that steamed bun. And then he says
[70:48] there were fingerprints on it, it
[70:50] wasn't the flour, it was...
[70:54] >> Mm.
[70:55] >> There are two kinds of fingerprints,
[70:57] yes.
[71:00] >> He said it was the flour, and my tears
[71:02] fell onto the bun. The woman behind him
[71:09] said, "From now on, what I eat, you
[71:11] shall eat."
[71:14] >> Mm.
[71:16] >> This is the Chinese version of the
[71:18] Titanic declaration, "If you jump, I
[71:20] jump.""
[71:23] >> What I eat, you shall eat"—that is
[71:24] the most supreme declaration of love.
[71:28] Why do I think such a detail is so good
[71:30] ? Now that I think about what you
[71:31] mentioned regarding the biological
[71:33] aspect.
[71:33] >> Mm.
[71:35] >> The psychological.
[71:37] >> The aesthetic, and the ethical.
[71:39] >> Right? All these layers can be
[71:42] penetrated by a single plot point. So,
[71:45] Professor Xu, no wonder we share the
[71:47] same birthday! I’m not kidding you,
[71:50] look, I had intended to read a passage
[71:52] from this book on today’s show; look,
[71:54] I even folded the corner of the page.
[71:56] Let me tell you, Teacher Xiao, I’ve
[71:58] read your book "Growing Old While
[71:59] Eating," and I feel it’s just like
[72:01] how Lu Xun described the entire world
[72:03] as being defined by the word "human."
[72:08] After finishing your book, I felt that
[72:10] the entire work boils down to just two
[72:12] words; it’s all about a sense of
[72:13] equality and plainness. Look, let me
[72:19] tell you why I call him a "
[72:20] tender-hearted tough guy." There’s
[72:24] this passage where he mentions a sesame
[72:26] pancake he really loved. That pancake
[72:29] —he described it as being incredibly
[72:31] delicious. Back in 1960, while on his
[72:35] way to visit a classmate in the city,
[72:37] his father traveled to another school.
[72:42] He was accompanied by a female
[72:44] classmate from the Dabie Mountains.
[72:48] Since this girl also had a schoolmate
[72:50] at that same school, they decided to
[72:51] travel together. It was over ten miles
[72:54] between the two schools, and the food
[72:56] at the cafeteria wasn't enough to
[72:58] sustain them for the journey. So, when
[73:01] they came across a pancake stall, his
[73:03] father hesitated for a moment before
[73:05] buying one, splitting it into a large
[73:07] piece and a small piece, and handing
[73:09] the larger one to the girl. After
[73:14] quickly finishing the smaller piece
[73:15] himself, he bit his lip and watched
[73:17] quietly as she finished hers bit by bit
[73:19] . As you might have guessed, this girl
[73:23] later became my mother. I almost teared
[73:27] up reading that; wouldn't you say it
[73:29] shares the same spirit as what you've
[73:30] written?
[73:33] >> I still tease my mom about how she was
[73:35] won over by a single pancake.
[73:38] >> Actually, this story is about my son,
[73:40] who was about to head to the U.S.
[73:43] >> To study. My mother, his grandmother,
[73:46] told him some life lessons.
[73:50] >> She said, when you look for a
[73:52] girlfriend in the future. Don't worry
[73:54] about anything else. Just look for a
[73:57] good heart. She needs to be good to you
[74:01] —that’s when I finally understood
[74:02] it.
[74:06] >> So, Grandma wants your son’s
[74:07] girlfriend to give him the larger half
[74:09] of the pancake.
[74:12] >> So, as a mother, if you’re wishing
[74:13] your son well, you want him to find a
[74:15] girlfriend who will give him the larger
[74:17] piece, right?
[74:19] >> Actually, every generation probably has
[74:21] these kinds of memories sparked by food
[74:23] . I had noodles for lunch today. I’ve
[74:28] been to this place before because
[74:29] someone recommended it, saying their
[74:31] noodles were excellent. I ate there and
[74:35] thought the noodles were good, but if
[74:37] you call it "Chongqing small noodles,"
[74:39] they aren't quite bold or "simple and
[74:41] rough" enough—they’re a bit too
[74:42] mild. I asked, "Are you really making
[74:45] authentic Chongqing noodles?""Who did
[74:47] you learn from?" The male owner looked,
[74:50] and I asked, he said I don't know how
[74:51] to cook. I'm the one who runs the shop.
[74:55] I asked, is this your wife? He said no,
[74:59] no, we both have our own families. As
[75:03] for her,
[75:04] >> she learned it from her grandmother. I
[75:06] said, oh, let me ask. So I asked. I
[75:08] asked, is your grandma from Chongqing?
[75:11] He said no, she's from Guangyuan. I
[75:14] said, oh, no wonder the noodles I ate
[75:16] were like beef bone noodles, the
[75:18] Guangyuan kind, with a cow leg sawed
[75:20] into a large slice of meat with a bone
[75:22] in the middle! That was so delicious. I
[75:27] said it's even more like that. He said,
[75:29] you even know that? That's true, that's
[75:32] what we eat there. Later, the beef bone
[75:34] noodles are exactly what I ordered for
[75:36] lunch today.
[75:38] >> I said this isn't the simplest, so
[75:39] later I asked, why are you guys...Since
[75:43] you both have families, why are you
[75:45] running a noodle shop here? He said
[75:47] it's not like that. It’s like this.
[75:49] The two of them talked to me for over
[75:51] 40 minutes. Why did they change careers
[75:53] ? He said, I heard you’ve filmed
[75:56] noodle shops before, you seem to work
[75:58] in film and television too. I’m a
[76:01] television screenwriter.
[76:03] >> Our company is about to go under,
[76:05] >> it just can't keep going.
[76:10] >> He worked in TV promotion, so we
[76:12] started this small brick-and-mortar
[76:13] business to see if we could make a
[76:15] living.
[76:19] >> Most importantly, I feel like I don't
[76:21] fit into this era anymore. I listened.
[76:24] I asked, why? He said, look, the
[76:27] screenwriting and drama theory I
[76:29] studied, it’s all useless today. I am
[76:32] a storyteller.
[76:34] >> Hmm. Hmm.
[76:35] >> People these days don't need stories,
[76:37] >> they need emotional value. Do you know
[76:39] what emotional value is? He then
[76:40] explained this emotional value to me,
[76:44] >> and then talked about KPIs, ROI, and
[76:46] all these modern things. He talked
[76:53] about the demands of the TV industry on
[76:55] creators, feeling that now you just
[76:57] need a pretty person sitting there
[76:59] chatting, and people will watch it like
[77:00] a drama. The building that once housed
[77:08] his theatrical dreams is gone, and in
[77:10] reality, everyone is just running wild
[77:12] in the wilderness. Oh, is this just a
[77:18] meal?
[77:22] >> I think the reason we go out to eat is
[77:24] so you can encounter a world you would
[77:25] never normally see. When you meet
[77:33] different people, just like I wrote in
[77:35] my book about a guy in a tube—I like
[77:37] going early to beat the lines—I heard
[77:39] workers picking chili peppers and one
[77:41] said, "You know what tastes best in
[77:42] this world?" You say you don't know,
[77:48] and a man says Moutai. They all agreed
[77:52] Moutai is the best, then someone asked
[77:53] him, "Have you ever actually had Moutai
[77:55] ?"
[77:57] >> He said, "I've had what the guests left
[77:59] behind." Imagine that. He said, "I
[78:02] suggest not drinking too much Moutai;
[78:03] for instance, it's something meant to
[78:05] be kept at home, but then you drink the
[78:07] Moutai." You get drunk and then start
[78:11] talking to others. Oh, just look at
[78:14] that—the sun hasn't set yet, and
[78:15] there are people picking chili peppers.
[78:20] It feels like a scene you couldn't buy
[78:22] with any amount of money; two people
[78:24] said Moutai is best, four people, four
[78:26] people said Moutai is the best.
[78:31] >> In reality, they have nothing to do
[78:33] with Moutai, yet they talk about it;
[78:35] you just feel that this is truly the
[78:36] best way to view the world through food
[78:38] . Yes, this appreciation of food, you
[78:43] can...it's not that I'm forcing a
[78:45] connection to what I want to talk about
[78:47] today. I mean it, but honestly, the
[78:53] first time I ate at many
[78:54] Michelin-starred places in Hong Kong—
[78:56] whenever I traveled, I'd try to "
[78:58] collect stars"—we found it tasty and
[79:00] pretty, but it didn't really move me.
[79:05] Then they mentioned this Noma
[79:06] restaurant in Denmark, saying it's
[79:08] ranked number one, "Teacher, which
[79:09] season did you go to?"
[79:11] >> I've never been, sorry.
[79:12] >> Never been, so I don't know about the
[79:14] seasons.
[79:15] >> Because it's closing down.
[79:17] >> Right, it's closing this year, so
[79:19] booking a table is like a lottery; you
[79:21] have to keep refreshing, just like
[79:23] trying to get concert tickets.
[79:25] >> He's lucky, we only saw it on TV. Then
[79:28] I kept refreshing, and my stubborn self
[79:29] actually managed to book a table for
[79:31] four, so I said, "Let's go." Then I
[79:33] asked, "What about the kids?" I told
[79:35] him I wasn't going, but he insisted, "
[79:37] No, it's closing, we have to go." So, I
[79:39] feel like what the teacher is saying is
[79:41] that it's a story; maybe the reason I
[79:43] cried when I finally ate that bite was
[79:45] because of the whole story behind it?
[79:47] It's about how much effort we spent; I
[79:49] spent two months looking for a sitter.
[79:51] I even paid a fortune to someone in
[79:53] Finland, begging, "Please fly with me
[79:55] to Denmark to watch my kids for four
[79:57] hours, so I can eat there for four
[79:58] hours." There were no hourly
[80:00] babysitters available for this meal.
[80:02] >> Then N also told me, "Many of our
[80:04] guests have said the same thing, we
[80:06] have a babysitting website."
[80:08] >> They gave me recommendations, but in
[80:10] the end, you know what I did? I flew my
[80:13] parents-in-law over from Taiwan, and
[80:15] since there were four of us, we asked
[80:17] Noma if we could split up—two for
[80:18] lunch and two for dinner. We took turns
[80:22] watching the kids so that both couples
[80:23] could eat there. Noma was actually
[80:26] quite nice about it and said, "Sure,
[80:28] let's do that." First of all, I feel
[80:30] that for a world-number-one
[80:31] establishment, throughout the entire
[80:33] communication process and even when you
[80:34] arrive, they never make you feel any
[80:36] pressure. I believe a truly confident,
[80:38] world-class restaurant is always the
[80:40] most humble; they never categorize or
[80:42] judge you. I felt zero pressure there,
[80:45] no need to worry about dressing
[80:47] formally, acting posh, or pretending to
[80:49] be a connoisseur. You don't need to;
[80:51] they just welcome you. I think this—
[80:54] because let me tell you, we were the
[80:56] first ones to enter through that main
[80:58] gate, the one with the antlers. They
[81:01] greeted us with warm applause. It
[81:02] wasn't you applauding them; as soon as
[81:04] you walk in, they warmly welcome you.
[81:06] >> It would be absurd if you applauded
[81:08] them—who applauds when they just walk
[81:10] in?
[81:10] >> If they did a good job, shouldn't you
[81:12] be doing that for them at the end?
[81:13] >> You'd only cry after you've finished
[81:15] eating.
[81:15] >> Exactly, you can't walk in crying; it's
[81:17] like coming for an inspection, like
[81:19] you're some big shot. Anyway, they made
[81:23] us feel very relaxed, and what I ate—
[81:25] the whole process really moved me. The
[81:28] first dish was just chicken. Their
[81:32] typical method is for you to eat it as
[81:34] is, then they ask you to add a sauce
[81:36] and try it again, then maybe add
[81:37] something else, maybe three times in
[81:39] total. But
[81:41] >> That’s just eating the same thing
[81:43] with different sauces, right?
[81:44] >> No, no, you eat the original flavor
[81:46] first, then maybe add a sauce, then
[81:47] maybe add another ingredient. They’re
[81:49] just giving you suggestions, not
[81:51] forcing you.
[81:53] >> Let me see the photos, let me see how
[81:55] good it could possibly be. I've never
[81:59] even heard of it, but in that entire
[82:01] niche culinary field, they are doing
[82:03] things extremely
[82:06] >> well. Mm, you
[82:08] >> The chef has his own laboratory, and
[82:10] this is the chicken I just mentioned.
[82:12] You see, it actually looks quite simple
[82:14] . Maybe because I'm Chinese, you look
[82:16] at it and think it's simple, right? But
[82:18] when I tasted it, you know what I
[82:19] thought of? I'm not saying it tasted
[82:21] the same, but I thought of Hong Kong, I
[82:23] thought of my favorite soy sauce
[82:24] chicken rice. I felt like I hadn't had
[82:26] such delicious, fatty chicken in so
[82:28] long.
[82:28] >> It really evokes a lot of feelings.
[82:30] >> This must be an aged chicken. Yes, and
[82:33] I find it interesting. Maybe because
[82:35] I'm Asian, but all the foreigners next
[82:37] to me were served a first course of
[82:39] chicken that included the whole bird,
[82:42] >> even the chicken head,
[82:44] >> placed right in front of them to look
[82:45] at while eating. We thought foreigners
[82:48] usually hate seeing things like eyes,
[82:50] like fish eyes. There was a seafood
[82:52] course, not the one I had, I had the
[82:54] game bird one. This layer, the red one
[82:57] you see, that is that.
[82:59] >> It's kombucha, do you know it? Just
[83:02] fermented tea.
[83:03] >> SCOBY.
[83:04] >> SCOBY.
[83:05] >> It's terrifying.
[83:06] >> Then he took the kombucha,
[83:08] >> Right, he took the culture film from
[83:10] the top of the kombucha, scraped it off
[83:12] , and served it to you.
[83:14] >> At a certain point, you're just eating
[83:16] stories.
[83:16] >> Yes,
[83:17] >> but it's not just stories, not entirely
[83:20] . I’ve generally eaten similar foods
[83:22] before. Actually, it’s a different
[83:25] kind of taste experience. The most
[83:28] important thing is that when you enter
[83:30] the professional field of gastronomy,
[83:31] you might need to rediscover the world.
[83:34] For example, the aging I just mentioned
[83:36] . Our past definition was that we have
[83:39] to grill, boil, or stir-fry it on a
[83:41] fire for it to be "cooked." Right, but
[83:43] that's actually not the norm. Its
[83:45] greatest feature is fermentation. Right
[83:48] .
[83:49] >> Fermentation is the second greatest
[83:51] human discovery after fire. Before we
[83:55] climbed down from the trees, we
[83:56] couldn't digest these things. So how do
[84:00] we define raw and cooked? This
[84:03] restaurant gave us a new answer. It’s
[84:06] limitless.
[84:07] >> It's already closed now.
[84:08] >> About to close, just raw chicken. It's
[84:11] natural fermentation. No,
[84:13] >> it's not natural fermentation either.
[84:14] This aging process is actually
[84:16] extremely complex. Very, very complex.
[84:19] Take ham, for example, like Spanish ham
[84:21] . We asked if it was fermented, and
[84:23] when we were filming, they said, "No,
[84:25] we don't call it fermentation, we call
[84:27] it aging."
[84:28] >> Right.
[84:29] >> It's because, because after I call it "
[84:31] aged," you can eat it raw. Mm.
[84:38] >> My expertise isn't enough to cover this
[84:40] for you, but there really is an
[84:41] abundance of food that we can obtain
[84:43] through fermentation, which our bodies
[84:45] can absorb without any harm.
[84:51] >> Right, it's such a—this restaurant
[84:53] doesn't even use vinegar.
[84:55] >> Yes, they use ants for everything.
[84:57] >> Right.
[84:58] >> They use formic acid; they use it as an
[85:00] acid.
[85:00] >> Mm.
[85:02] >> With ants.
[85:03] >> So you think you're eating...no, you're
[85:05] eating acid.
[85:07] >> Oh my god.
[85:08] >> But it's just a little, and then you...
[85:09] >> Didn't eat it, or...
[85:10] >> No, no, the point is, at first I would
[85:13] feel—and then I would frown, right?
[85:15] >> I had two chances, but I felt the
[85:16] journey was too far; I'm still quite a
[85:18] lazy person. But I told myself, just
[85:20] like when my son eats strawberries, you
[85:22] have to let go of your biases, and you
[85:24] really must—this chef respects every
[85:26] single detail. When all his sauces come
[85:29] together, you think—I mean, when I
[85:31] say it's delicious, I mean it never
[85:33] makes you feel like everything has
[85:34] merged into one; it's still three
[85:36] distinct flavors in your mouth.
[85:38] >> You know how when you drink alcohol,
[85:40] you taste the notes? You talk about the
[85:42] front, middle, and finish. Yes, that's
[85:44] what I mean—I shifted from spatial
[85:46] layers to temporal layers. Hey.
[85:48] >> Oh my. What does it mean to chew and
[85:51] get sweetness, and then slowly...
[85:54] >> It first makes your mouth contract, and
[85:56] when it opens up again, all the fluids
[85:58] secreted are sweet, like drinking tea
[86:00] —it’s high-end, right? Yes,
[86:03] drinking tea and eating, that’s
[86:05] exactly what it means. And for someone
[86:07] like me, a total layman, the fact that
[86:09] he can make a layman understand—I
[86:11] think that’s the most impressive part
[86:13] . It means you don't need to be a food
[86:16] expert; I just sit there and follow the
[86:18] flow. I just need to eat seriously and
[86:20] not keep chatting. I just eat slowly
[86:22] and enjoy the moment, and I think, "Oh
[86:24] my god, there are several independent
[86:26] souls inside my mouth, yet they
[86:28] cooperate so well, so perfectly,
[86:30] without overshadowing each other."
[86:31] It’s like saying we are all great,
[86:33] but just because I’m saying these
[86:34] things here doesn’t mean I want to
[86:36] drown anyone else out; that's not what
[86:38] I mean. S
