深扒李小冉离婚，资本浪潮下的明星婚姻折射出的现实太扎心！#李小冉 #婚姻 #离婚 #女性 #婚姻 #夫妻关系 #情感 #人性 #婚姻真相 #情感 #家庭 #中年女性 #她的房间 #半边天 #窦文涛

深扒李小冉离婚：资本浪潮下明星婚姻折射出的扎心现实 节目核心围绕一位经历两次婚姻破裂的中年女性展开：她近四十岁考研赴京重启人生，48岁远嫁美国却陷入极端窒息的家务控制与人格矮化中，最终在52岁毅然净身出户，凭借惊人毅力考取美国注册护士执照，在废墟上重建尊严与自由。在此基础上，对谈进一步延伸至关中平原农村妇女刘小样的精神坚守、经典文学与电影（如《时时刻刻》《兹山鱼谱》《傲慢与偏见》《坠落的审判》）中的性别困境与现实阻力，以及史铁生面对苦难的顽强生命哲学。全片深刻剖析了亲密关系中的控制欲与附属心态，强调唯有建立不依附于他人的独立人格与“各自的房间”，才能实现真正的自我救赎。 嘉宾在第一段婚姻破裂后，近四十岁跨专业读研，带儿子赴京扎根报社，48岁远嫁美国却沦为家庭附属品；52岁决然净身离家，在异国绝境中兼打三份工自立，最终以近乎全A成绩考取美国注册护士执照，完成废墟重生。 (4:01) 节目重访曾轰动一时的关中农村妇女刘小样，展现其“身顺心违”却坚持不认同“娜拉出走”模板的复杂选择，借由“红衣服不穿在身上，涂在嘴上的口红就是红衣服”折射普通女性在泥土现实与精神自足间的平衡之道。 (39:41) 对谈深度剖析《时时刻刻》《坠落的审判》及波伏娃与萨特、简·奥斯汀等文学影视样本，指出亲密关系的底层逻辑从未脱离经济法则与权力博弈，健康的现代关系不在于强求同频同调，而在于各自拥有独立的精神房间与接纳差异的行动。 (66:03) 借由对比沙白白赴瑞典安乐死与史铁生在透析煎熬中写作并捐献器官，节目探讨了面对苦难的多元生命哲学，强调真正的内在力量往往源于扎根现实生活、直面挫折并将苦痛转化为生命滋养的坚韧耐受力。 (53:28)

本期节目通过受访女性经历两段婚姻破局并在中年绝境中完成自我重建的个案，结合中外文学与电影文本，深入探讨了亲密关系中的权力控制、女性主体性的确立以及直面现实苦难的生命韧性。 破除婚姻依附与跨国重构的幻灭 (0:00) 嘉宾在第一段婚姻遭遇出轨时拒绝陷入“雌竞”撕扯，选择以理性维护自我情绪与孩子利益，和平告别后于近40岁跨专业考研，36岁携子北漂并凭借坚韧扎根体制内。然而，在48岁前夕，出于对自身掌控能力的过度自信以及对艺术梦想的追逐，她放弃优渥条件远嫁美国，却迅速跌入全职太太的规训陷阱中。男方在日常家务和饮食上推行极端苛刻的微观控制，不仅将其北方式烹饪方式全盘否定，甚至在家庭聚餐时当众将做好的饺子倒回沸锅以行羞辱。这种彻底剥夺自主权的家庭结构，令她失去了财务独立与话语权，甚至对车库门开启的声音产生躯体化恐惧，直至Costco会员卡上神情空洞的照片彻底震醒了她，促使其在52岁毅然决然净身出户。 就地扎根与高强度重塑的尊严 (24:01) 面对52岁在异国无工作、无医保且无社交圈的极度困境，她坚决拒绝草率再婚或逃回国内这两条逃避路径，主张唯有在跌倒处重新站起才能真正洗刷耻辱。为支撑生活与房产税，她一度兼打三份工，同时靠着免息分期建立起属于自己的明亮居所，以此空间作为精神疗愈的基地。随后，她顶住语言和生理记忆力的双重劣势，跨过解剖学、药理学等繁重课程门槛，在清一色年轻人的护理学院以近乎全A的成绩拿下ADN学位及全美护士执照。如今56岁的她不仅能够胜任医院12小时的连轴夜班，更在救治与帮助病患的具体劳动中获得了坚实的自我价值感，展现出不甘沉沦的顽强生命力。 精神自足与“娜拉出走”后的现实困境 (35:45) 五十岁后的新生让嘉宾认识到，人生的核心在于确立自己的生命支点与自我价值感，摆脱“被抛弃”的受害者逻辑，使爱情与婚姻不再成为生活的必需品。对谈中引入了陕西农村妇女刘小样的真实案例：面对乡村生活的规训，她坚持精神求索并坦言“宁可痛苦，不要麻木”，但因家庭照护责任而数次折返故土，将“红衣服穿在心里”，通过脚踏实地的劳作守护精神高贵。结合电影《时时刻刻》中出走母亲与受创自杀儿子的代际悲剧，嘉宾指出传统的“娜拉出走”叙事往往遮蔽了留守家庭与子女面临的现实代价；个人觉醒与人际牵绊之间存在着难以调和的结构性撕扯，文学与严肃观察的意义正在于直面而非粉饰这种生存困局。 从金钱现实到苦难转化的艺术映射 (56:26) 讨论进一步由现实人生延展至文化经典中的人性纵深。嘉宾剖析了英国文学中无法回避的财产继承法则与金钱账本，指出简·奥斯汀的伟大不仅在于开创了阶层对抗的爱情叙事，更在于让女性敢于押上未来去捍卫尊严；而萨特与波伏娃的开放式神话背后，同样夹杂着缺乏嫁妆的现实妥协与女性自证才华的额外重负。面对身体与命运的残酷摧残，比起沙白白远赴瑞士追求唯美解脱的选择，史铁生将漫长透析生活转化为《病隙碎笔》并死后捐献器官延续他人生命的姿态，展示了一种直面苦难、酿造智慧的力量。嘉宾强调，人生试炼往往避无可避，无论审视现实冲突还是品味复杂的文艺作品，都应摒弃非黑即白的扁平审判，看见深渊与向光性交织的人性全貌。 本期对谈并未提供任何速成的两性指南或精神鸡汤，而是通过真实的婚变创伤、中年绝地求生以及多部文艺经典的对照，揭示了亲密关系与女性觉醒背后沉重的经济筹码和精神代价，强调了直面生存泥泞、拒绝虚妄逃避的坚忍力量。

[0:00] 女人一定要尽可能用理性去保护自己的利益和情绪的完整，而不是把自己撕得粉碎去跟对方撕扯。 [32:24] 你可以同情你自己，但千万不要随便同情别人。 [37:59] 真正一个人的完整是——无论女性还是男性——我自己站得住，然后我精神上是完整的，我自己有安全感，有自我价值感，在那种状态下，其实什么都OK。 [4:12] 在世界的任何一个角落，只要给我一个空间，我都能做好一顿饭，都能把日子过好。 [78:40] 我们看作品一定要看到它的复杂性。任何事情都是复杂的，绝不是好男人对坏女人、有钱人好穷人坏，事情绝没有那么简单。 [71:56] You are a woman. Before you succeed, no one will believe a word you say.

[0:00] Let’s talk about the first ex-husband [0:02] , when you find out [0:05] >> he’s seeing a younger girl, everyone [0:07] calls her the "other woman" or [0:08] something similar. [0:10] >> But I call her a "little one." [0:12] >> It’s true, you can't blame the " [0:14] little one" entirely; the issues were [0:16] between us, we had problems first. [0:19] >> Yes, they might find the term "little [0:21] one" quite refreshing, since no one has [0:23] ever heard an original wife—or even [0:25] more derogatory terms like "the big [0:27] wife"—call her that. I mean, for a " [0:32] big wife" to call the "other woman" a " [0:35] little one"—it’s a very peculiar [0:37] kind of bitterness. [0:39] >> Let me shake your hand first, and then [0:41] I’ll tell you why. [0:42] >> Uh-huh. [0:43] >> I’ve always really disliked the term [0:44] "other woman." [0:46] >> Yeah, I really don't like that word. " [0:49] Home-wrecker,""betrayal," all those [0:51] words sound so ugly to me. I don't want [0:54] those things applied to me. Now there's [0:57] a more refined, yet crude term called " [0:59] female competition." You know, like a [1:02] term for female animals, " [1:04] >> competition" meaning women competing [1:06] and tearing each other apart, [1:08] >> and of course, the core of it is [1:10] usually fighting over a man. [1:12] >> Since they're fighting over a man, it [1:14] just goes to show these women haven't [1:15] stood up for themselves yet, right? [1:20] >> But in terms of human nature, people do [1:22] have that sense of control and [1:24] possession—my marriage, my husband, [1:26] they’re all mine— [1:29] >> and then suddenly, they aren't yours [1:31] anymore. When you feel your feelings [1:35] have been trampled and your self-esteem [1:37] crushed, it’s hard to be rational in [1:38] your anger, [1:41] >> and admit, "Actually, we had problems [1:43] too; the main issue was with us," [1:46] >> and then try to look at it from the [1:48] other girl’s perspective and feel [1:49] she’s pitiful too. [1:53] >> From the standpoint of human empathy, I [1:54] think everyone is pitiful in their own [1:56] way. I can understand that, of course, [2:01] but I hope [2:06] >> women can use as much reason as [2:08] possible to protect their own interests [2:10] and their own emotional integrity, [2:11] rather than tearing the other person [2:13] down and leaving themselves in tatters. [2:19] >> I just think that level of [2:20] understanding is so rare; it’s hard [2:22] for people to do that. [2:24] >> I really want to ask you how you manage [2:26] to maintain such rationality and [2:28] >> empathy. [2:31] >> Because as we discussed this issue, we [2:33] both stayed calm. When he was [2:41] struggling at the beginning, I honestly [2:43] never defined him as a man with poor [2:44] character. Even now, we’re still like [2:51] old friends, and there’s also the [2:53] starting point: he is my son’s father [2:55] , after all. Respecting my son’s [2:58] father is also a way of caring for my [3:00] son, don't you think? [3:02] >> It is a crucial form of care. [3:03] >> It minimizes the harm caused to my son [3:05] by the divorce as much as possible. And [3:09] even now, because my son spent several [3:11] years studying in the US and another [3:13] year working there, he hadn't returned [3:15] home for five years. I told him, "You [3:17] need to go back and see your father." [3:20] Then he went straight to his father. [3:22] After the two of them reunited, they [3:24] came to my house, they...They went to [3:26] their home, and it was all like one [3:28] family, like relatives. Isn't that [3:30] wonderful? [3:31] >> Also, my child's father is very [3:33] respectful toward my parents and still [3:35] calls them Mom and Dad. [3:37] >> Oh, I see. [3:38] >> Yes. [3:38] >> That’s truly great. [3:40] >> Do you know what I feel? Teacher Zhang [3:44] Yuan, I feel that even though my first [3:46] marriage ended, I never considered it a [3:48] mistake. It just ended. [3:52] >> Mm. As they say, "a graceful parting, [3:55] mutual happiness." [3:56] >> Ah, yes, yes, yes. Regardless of the [4:00] type of divorce, whether you were [4:01] passive or active, it actually hurts a [4:03] lot, and you have to go through that [4:05] painful process. [4:07] >> So I want to ask you, how do you keep [4:09] from becoming a resentful parent? [4:12] >> You have to truly understand and figure [4:14] out which path is best for yourself and [4:16] for others. For me, sacrificing [4:22] personal worth just to maintain a [4:24] superficial appearance for 50 years has [4:26] no meaning. Actually, restarting your [4:43] life was not easy; you changed majors [4:46] and went to graduate school. [4:47] >> Mm. [4:48] >> You changed jobs and moved from Yantai [4:50] to Beijing. [4:52] >> Yes, and raising a child—that was [4:53] your first total life reconstruction, [4:55] and that was when you were nearly 40. [4:59] Let me think, I was in graduate school [5:01] then; I was 36 when I graduated. [5:03] >> 36. [5:06] >> Already considered middle-aged, and at [5:08] that time, the other side had an idea, [5:10] which was to let my son go with them to [5:12] relieve my burden. Oh, no, I wouldn't [5:16] trust anyone else. I had to raise my [5:19] child myself, because my son's father [5:21] is naturally a man who doesn't like to [5:23] worry about things. Once he handed the [5:27] child over to me, he stopped worrying [5:29] entirely, though he did provide the [5:31] financial support. If you look at it [5:34] through the lens of conventional [5:36] theories, there is actually a [5:37] completely different interpretation. [5:39] For example, if that woman came to you [5:41] and said, "I'm willing to raise your [5:43] child and love them like my own," we [5:44] would tell you, "Don't believe it." [5:46] >> Mm. [5:47] >> Is it a lie from a stepmother? It’s [5:50] not good for the kids, and when your [5:51] husband says he trusts you most with [5:53] them but offers to pay, [5:55] >> Mm-hmm. [5:57] >> He’s just trying to dump the [5:58] responsibility. Yeah, that’s exactly [6:00] how you could interpret it. Plus, they [6:03] got married right after our divorce, [6:04] and the baby was born in less than a [6:06] year—another son. I could easily look [6:10] at it as a conspiracy, but I choose to [6:11] believe otherwise. People often tease [6:14] me, calling me a fool. They say I’m a [6:18] fool without a plan, but I believe [6:20] heaven won’t treat me unfairly, so [6:22] I’m content being a fool, being [6:24] myself. Actually, our last interview [6:28] took place during that period, not long [6:30] after you arrived in Beijing. [6:33] >> That was right after I graduated and [6:35] got that job at the newspaper as an [6:37] outsider. Back then, I probably earned [6:42] half or a little less than the staff, [6:44] something like that, but I still felt I [6:46] could make a living. I didn't buy a [6:50] house at first. I rented a place in [6:53] Shijingshan, very remote because it was [6:55] cheap. It was a run-down place on the [6:58] ground floor where I lived with my son, [7:00] and my commute was so far. [7:03] >> Mm-hmm. [7:05] >> Then one day, a good friend called me [7:07] and asked, "Xiaoyan, what are you doing [7:09] ?" I told her I was at home making [7:12] dumplings. She was incredibly surprised [7:14] . "How can you make dumplings in such a [7:17] dump?" I told her that in any corner of [7:21] the world, as long as I have a space, I [7:23] can cook well and live well. [7:27] >> People never really know what others [7:29] are going through. Just like 18 years [7:32] ago when we did that interview, I [7:34] really didn't know your situation, [7:36] because you seemed so composed. Right, [7:40] looking back now, that was nothing. [7:43] Compared to my second experience, it [7:45] was just a bump in the road emotionally [7:47] . It was about accepting the reality of [7:52] the situation and the changes in my [7:54] life, but my foundation remained [7:55] unchanged. Because I knew I had [8:02] finished graduate school, I could still [8:04] work. As long as I had a job and my [8:12] social identity as a professional woman [8:14] , I could still forge my own path. [8:25] I’ve always had quite a bit of [8:26] confidence in myself in that regard. [8:34] There was a saying circulating at the [8:35] newspaper back then; there were four [8:37] women in our office. I wore skirts all [8:40] year round; among those who did, I was [8:42] one of them. Skirts, trench coats, tall [8:46] boots—every day I went to work as if [8:48] I were going to a party. That’s how [8:51] it was. I was an outstanding employee [8:58] year after year, always in such a [9:00] wonderful state. Later, another chapter [9:17] happened: you fell in love with and [9:18] married an American citizen, and then [9:20] you moved to the U.S. Looking at your [9:22] old Weibo posts now— [9:25] >> It seems like it was a fairly rapid [9:27] romantic progression before you decided [9:29] to get married, and at that time, you [9:31] must have been— [9:32] >> In a great mood. People in love write [9:36] things like, "Oh, I've met such a warm [9:38] and kind person," wanting to naturally [9:40] and openly start a new life. [9:44] >> Right. He is a very capable person, so [9:55] I had "filters" again—I developed " [9:58] filters" for this man. [10:02] >> How old were you when you married and [10:03] moved to the U.S.? [10:06] >> On the day I got married, I was one [10:08] month shy of my 48th birthday. [10:10] >> Mmhmm. My friends and my family were [10:13] all worried about me. Back then, I had [10:15] a permanent position; my income and [10:17] benefits were all very good. [10:18] >> In short, over those ten years in [10:20] Beijing, I had managed my life quite [10:22] well. [10:22] >> I was very satisfied with how I’d [10:24] managed it, and I was extremely [10:26] confident. The reason I felt so secure [10:29] giving all of that up to follow this [10:31] man to the U.S. was actually based on [10:32] my self-confidence, not on trying to [10:34] cling to a man. It’s just that I felt [10:39] I could make any marriage work. Not to [10:42] mention that I had met such an [10:43] excellent— [10:45] >> An excellent man, and he appreciated me [10:47] so much. He told me his dream was to [10:50] find a creative, literary soul. At that [10:54] time, I had just started experimenting [10:56] with watercolors and was completely [10:57] obsessed. I wished I could spend 24 [11:00] hours a day just painting; I didn’t [11:02] want to do anything else. When I was [11:04] painting, I didn’t even want to go to [11:06] the bathroom; I would hold it until I [11:08] couldn’t anymore. I’d run to the [11:11] bathroom because I just didn’t want [11:13] to leave that desk; I had to stay by [11:14] that painting. It reached that level. I [11:20] wanted to paint, I wanted to write, and [11:22] I wanted to realize my value, because [11:24] while that job was very respectable and [11:26] very easy, there was no growth year [11:28] after year. So the agreement we reached [11:32] was that, on one hand, I could be a [11:34] housewife. I felt it was too easy for [11:39] me, no problem at all, and with no [11:41] children to take care of, I had plenty [11:43] of time. I wanted to paint and write [11:47] like this to realize my life—my true [11:49] life's dreams. [11:51] >> Did you get married and move there with [11:53] your children? [11:53] >> No, I didn't bring children; my child [11:55] was already an adult. [11:57] >> Mmhmm. [11:58] >> He is studying mathematics at UCLA. [12:01] Everything you do can be interpreted [12:02] from another angle. For instance, your [12:05] second marriage could be seen as a [12:07] woman nearing 50 who still won't settle [12:09] down, chasing after a wealthy man to go [12:11] abroad, just to get a green card, right [12:13] ? That’s one way to explain it. Of [12:17] course, those who know you understand [12:19] that where the heart leads and the [12:21] spirit follows, a truly confident woman [12:22] is willing to experience and embrace [12:24] different lives. [12:26] >> Life. And perhaps back then, it was my [12:29] ideal life. Well, to be honest, when I [12:34] decided to enter my second marriage, I [12:36] wasn't a 20-year-old girl anymore, [12:38] making decisions based solely on [12:40] emotion; I had conducted a [12:42] comprehensive assessment. I thought [12:48] about what kind of life I would lead if [12:49] I married this person, and whether it [12:51] was the life I wanted. Mhm. [12:54] >> I think that is beyond reproach. [12:56] >> Mhm. [12:57] >> But as long as I married this person, I [12:59] was determined to be a good partner. [13:01] >> Mhm. [13:03] >> And the facts proved that I took such [13:05] good care of him; he’ll never find a [13:06] slave as perfect as I was again. [13:09] >> You used the term "perfect slave." [13:11] >> Yes. [13:12] >> This suggests there must have been many [13:14] unpleasant moments during your time [13:15] living together. Yes, I soon realized [13:20] that he had boxed me in as a housewife. [13:28] Even with chores, he could always find [13:30] more for me to do. Do you know what I [13:35] mean? Even if I had already cleaned the [13:40] room thoroughly, he would still say [13:41] this place wasn't right, that place [13:43] wasn't right. And I’m so good at [13:47] making dumplings and buns, yet while I [13:48] was making dumplings...This wasn't [13:50] right, that wasn't right. Even how I [13:53] boiled the dumplings was wrong. I could [13:57] write a ten-thousand-word manual on all [13:58] his regulations for how to boil a [14:00] dumpling. Can you believe that? I [14:03] couldn't understand it. Shandong people [14:06] are the best at making buns and [14:07] dumplings in all of China; we have no [14:09] right to be picky with Shandong people [14:11] in this regard. Yet, he could lecture [14:14] me without restraint. Is that how you [14:16] do things? My habit was that as long as [14:20] the meat was cooked—just barely [14:21] cooked—it was at its most delicious. [14:26] But he thought that was wrong; he [14:28] insisted the vegetables had to be [14:29] boiled until they were mush, turned [14:31] into liquid. Ah. [14:36] >> See, are you surprised? Mhm. [14:40] >> He wanted the vegetables in the [14:41] dumpling filling to be unnoticeable, [14:43] completely turned to mush, and he [14:44] claimed that was the best way to eat [14:46] them. [14:48] >> That's just boiling vegetable porridge. [14:51] >> And I respected his taste, so I said, " [14:53] Okay." Then I'll just boil them for you [14:56] a bit longer. I plated a portion for [14:58] myself first. Just cooked through, I [15:01] said I like them this way. Do you know [15:05] what the result was? [15:06] >> Hmm. [15:07] >> He got angry. [15:08] >> He got angry. [15:09] >> What was he angry about? [15:11] >> Because I didn't follow his "truth." I [15:14] find it quite ridiculous; his son [15:16] especially loves the dumplings I make. [15:20] Do you know how many he can eat? He can [15:23] eat 50 of my dumplings. His son was [15:26] coming back, so I made over 100. You're [15:29] really capable. [15:29] >> I don't like using him because he can't [15:31] guarantee my standards. My own quality [15:33] is high; I can make them without any [15:35] breaking. [15:35] >> You both have strong personalities. [15:37] >> You see, my personality is also quite [15:39] strong. Anyway, the first batch was [15:42] ready, the child had already eaten two [15:44] plates, one was left, and he went over, [15:46] took one, and tasted it. "Wrong.""You [15:50] didn't, you didn't boil the dumplings [15:51] the way I said." The child said, " [15:54] Aren't these delicious?""No, you just [15:57] didn't follow my instructions. The [16:00] taste is just, it's just not the same." [16:03] I said, "Well, what should we do? [16:05] They're already cooked." Then he picked [16:09] up that plate of dumplings and dumped [16:10] them straight back into the pot. [16:13] >> I'm starting to understand. [16:16] >> You're starting to understand what kind [16:18] of monster I found? I just sat there [16:22] keeping a smile on my face. But the [16:26] rage inside me. The bottled-up rage— [16:29] how intense it was. I wanted to dump [16:32] that pot over his head. But I couldn't. [16:34] I'm feeling angry just listening to [16:36] this. How to boil dumplings isn't a [16:38] matter of principle, but to take cooked [16:40] dumplings, in front of others, in front [16:41] of the child, and take the food the [16:43] wife prepared...... [16:45] >> and dump it back into the pot—this [16:46] insult is absolute humiliation. After [16:55] hearing your story about making [16:56] dumplings, do you feel like we must [16:58] make a batch ourselves? [16:59] >> Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. [17:02] >> We need to see if your dumpling-making [17:04] is normal. [17:05] >> I think it's basically normal. [17:07] >> Basically normal, okay. [17:11] >> When you're abroad alone, do you make [17:13] dumplings for yourself too? [17:15] >> Of course I do. What's the most [17:17] dumplings you've made by yourself at [17:18] one time? [17:19] >> I once made 200. [17:20] >> Oh my god. [17:23] >> Because when his whole family was there [17:25] , I made 200 alone, with two different [17:27] fillings. Then, I leaned back in the [17:31] chair for a nap, you know, a [17:32] five-minute snooze, and he came over [17:34] shortly after. He criticized me. Do you [17:38] know what he criticized me for? Yeah, [17:42] because I put my spoon down and it made [17:44] a sound that disturbed his sleep, so I [17:46] could be criticized at any moment. I [17:50] still sat there keeping a smile on my [17:52] face. But deep down, I knew one day I [17:54] wouldn't be able to take it. [17:56] >> I guess even though you didn't resist, [17:59] >> you pretended to be compliant, but your [18:00] ex-husband could still feel that you [18:02] weren't truly submissive. [18:04] >> So he wasn't happy. You’re so right. [18:09] Even if I knelt down, he would think my [18:11] posture wasn’t quite right, that I [18:13] wasn’t sincere enough, exposing my [18:15] inner defiance. [18:19] >> Why did he choose me? There was a [18:21] reason: my background was inferior to [18:23] his. I was hardworking, had a good [18:27] temper, lots of patience, and was [18:29] well-educated. I fit his fantasy [18:35] perfectly—a woman who left Beijing, [18:37] came to the U.S. to marry him, and [18:39] would be completely under his control. [18:46] His template for a happy marriage was a [18:48] woman giving up all her own agency. But [18:58] I had no choice but to see myself as a [19:00] subordinate, because I had lost [19:02] everything. I gave everything up; I had [19:11] nothing in the U.S. Although I [19:12] discovered major incompatibilities and [19:14] that our marriage was falling apart [19:16] within the first year, I still tried [19:18] hard to make it work, so I kept [19:19] compromising and backing down. When I [19:27] looked in the mirror, I felt like I had [19:29] a servile face. [19:31] >> Ah. [19:32] >> Yes. Once, a good friend of mine—the [19:37] only Chinese female friend I socialized [19:39] with in the U.S.—came to my house, [19:41] and we were sitting there chatting. [19:47] Then the garage door made a noise, and [19:49] as soon as it sounded, I knew he was [19:51] back. We were having a nice chat, but I [19:55] immediately, just like that, I stood up [19:58] . [19:58] >> Hmm, that was your state at the time. [20:00] >> I was in that kind of state, yes. [20:02] >> Because he was always criticizing you, [20:04] so whenever he appeared, you were [20:05] afraid. Because as soon as I heard he [20:07] was home, I’d wonder what I hadn’t [20:09] done right. Would he come back and [20:11] start criticizing me again? I was [20:13] living a life of constant fear. And you [20:16] didn't have any leverage to resist. [20:18] >> You didn't have a job after moving [20:20] abroad, right? [20:21] >> No job at all. After I went abroad, I [20:23] was just a housewife. [20:25] >> Did you try to work at that time? At [20:27] the beginning of the marriage, yes. [20:30] Never, because it was very clear that [20:32] as a 48-year-old woman with a liberal [20:34] arts background, what would I even do [20:36] in the U.S.? [20:39] >> So the harm caused by your second [20:40] marriage [20:42] >> was actually damage to my agency and [20:44] independence. [20:46] >> Right. [20:49] >> So I made up my mind that I must earn a [20:50] new degree and become a professional [20:52] again. [20:55] >> I still wanted to maintain my dignity. [21:02] At that time, I had been disconnected [21:04] from society for several years. I had a [21:06] good friend who went into nursing. She [21:10] encouraged me, saying, "I know nursing [21:12] is very difficult, but I know you can [21:14] do it.""If you can complete your [21:17] nursing studies, your sense of [21:18] self-worth will be great." So, with her [21:21] encouragement, I pursued it. At that [21:24] time, did your husband ever encourage [21:26] you to go out and build a new sense of [21:28] freedom in this new environment? [21:32] >> The agreement we initially reached and [21:33] the lifestyle we established was for me [21:35] to be a housewife. He once threatened [21:39] me that if I didn't follow his wishes, [21:41] and if I insisted on studying or [21:43] working, we would have to divorce. Oh, [21:46] there was such a condition? That you [21:48] couldn't go out to study or work, or [21:50] else you'd get a divorce? Mm-hmm, yes. [21:54] >> Yes. [21:57] >> A woman who was already 50, mature [21:59] enough, and very confident, [22:02] >> encountered strict discipline within [22:04] her marriage. If that's the case, those [22:07] four years of marriage must have been [22:09] quite stifling. [22:11] >> So, you know what? When I finally [22:13] looked in the mirror, I didn't even [22:14] recognize myself. I felt that after two [22:17] years with him, I was no longer the [22:19] person I used to be. I kept a photo [22:23] from back then, taken after I left home [22:25] . That day I went to Costco to get a [22:28] membership card, and when I saw the [22:30] photo, I wanted to burst into tears. I [22:34] looked like one of those missing women [22:36] with mental illness posted on a [22:37] telephone pole—that was exactly what [22:39] I looked like. I’ve kept that photo; [22:43] can you imagine how I felt? At that [22:46] moment, I thought: I will absolutely [22:48] not go back. Even if I have nothing, I [22:55] will start from scratch; I will never [22:57] return to that kind of marriage. The [23:05] day before I ran away, I still cooked [23:07] dinner. I cleaned up the house. Then I [23:15] left him a note, taking advantage of [23:17] the hour he was out that morning for an [23:19] errand. I told my son, "Let's pack our [23:22] things quickly; this is our chance. [23:25] Otherwise, if he were home, I wouldn't [23:27] be able to leave." Before that, I had [23:30] already confided in my son when we went [23:32] for a walk. After a while, I said, [23:34] let's sit down and chat. Actually, my [23:37] son knew. [23:38] >> Hmm. [23:39] >> I said, Mom might be getting a divorce [23:41] again. This would be my second one. I [23:43] said, Mom just can't go on like this [23:45] anymore. My son didn't say a word, but [23:48] tears just kept streaming down his face [23:50] . Finally, I asked him, I said, what do [23:53] you think I should do? He said, I [23:56] support whatever you decide. Hmm, that [23:59] was it. [24:01] >> When we drove away that day, I cried [24:03] again; I felt so heartbroken. My son [24:07] said, since you've made your decision, [24:09] just go; don't hesitate anymore. Once [24:12] you've decided, just No job [24:28] >> No job, no social connections. [24:31] >> No social status, no social ties, [24:33] nothing at all. [24:35] >> Did you have any insurance, retirement, [24:37] or medical coverage? [24:39] >> He didn't set any of that up for you? [24:41] Uh, I had it during the marriage, but [24:43] did it disappear once I got divorced? [24:46] >> Then you [24:47] >> That's right. [24:48] >> And just like that, you ran away from [24:50] home. [24:51] >> Yes, right. I had a little bit of money [24:54] ; my sister had visited me in the US [24:56] once, and she saw the life I was living [24:58] here. She said, let's open a joint [25:01] account. She left me some money; she [25:04] had a gut feeling that I might need it [25:05] one day. And it turned out I did. Hmm. [25:09] >> I can imagine your situation back then, [25:11] being over 50. [25:12] >> I was 52 at that time. [25:13] >> Back home, you could have retired and [25:15] lived comfortably. [25:16] >> Hmm. [25:18] >> And yet, no money, no job, a failed [25:20] marriage you couldn't endure. [25:23] >> Hmm. [25:24] >> Taking the little money your sister [25:26] gave you, you left home to stay in a [25:27] hotel. [25:28] >> Hmm. [25:30] >> I think that's dramatic enough. Back [25:32] then, I had almost no gray hair, hmm, [25:34] >> But after staying there for just a few [25:36] days, I found a patch of white hair [25:38] here. [25:38] >> Oh my, what do they call "turning white [25:40] overnight"? [25:40] >> It wasn't overnight, I think it was " [25:42] white in a month." [25:43] >> White in a month. [25:44] >> Indeed, white in a month. [25:45] >> It was truly a great hardship at that [25:47] time. [25:47] >> Yes, exactly, I still thought, no, this [25:50] won't do. I still had to stand back up. [25:53] Even when I had nothing, I was [25:55] surprised I could still manage to [25:56] survive. I think it was just by relying [26:00] on a sense of, hmm, [26:01] >> Actually, you had many ways to escape [26:04] these difficulties. [26:06] >> Yes. [26:06] >> The first and easiest way. [26:08] >> Find someone else to marry. [26:09] >> Find someone else to marry. [26:11] >> Hmm, that's the simplest way, but I [26:13] firmly refused. [26:14] >> The second way was to return home. But [26:17] I just wouldn’t go back. I felt that [26:23] if I did, the wound from my previous [26:25] marriage—not primarily an emotional [26:27] wound, but the trauma of losing my [26:29] identity as a woman and being bullied [26:31] —would never heal. That wound [26:37] wouldn't heal because I retreated. I [26:42] walked away carrying that injury [26:43] without healing myself, so I knew I had [26:45] to stay. I had to stand back up right [26:50] where I had fallen. [26:52] >> Running back home. [26:53] >> Yeah. [26:53] >> Whether it was running back to China or [26:55] anywhere else, [26:56] >> I would have looked down on myself. [26:58] >> Right, that was my entire journey. [27:02] >> This second marriage breakdown was much [27:04] harder than the first. You know, [27:06] rebuilding from scratch. Yes, the [27:11] second time is the real reconstruction, [27:13] truly starting from the ruins. You. I [27:20] had to work multiple jobs; at first, I [27:22] worked three. I also had to pay [27:24] property taxes. I put all my money into [27:26] buying a house. I was determined to [27:29] find a bright, sunny home with good [27:31] ventilation. Even in that situation, I [27:34] didn't want to compromise. I even [27:36] bought a set of furniture. It was the [27:40] first time I’d ever taken out a loan [27:41] for furniture, and I’m still paying [27:43] it off. 150 dollars a month, for five [27:47] years, but it’s an interest-free loan [27:49] . I thought, why should I wait five [27:53] years to earn enough for furniture? [27:57] Should I just let my house stay empty [27:58] and shabby for five years? No, I had to [28:02] buy a set, and it had to be real wood. [28:06] I even got a King-size bed. My son told [28:10] me, "You could roll around on this bed [28:12] forever." Every time I return to this [28:23] home and see everything I’ve managed [28:25] on my own, I feel a sense of being [28:26] healed. [28:29] >> Now I understand. I understand why you [28:32] needed a sunny house and a bed you [28:34] loved. [28:35] >> It wasn't just for living; it was for [28:37] healing. [28:37] >> It was for healing, it truly was for [28:39] healing. [28:40] >> It was for comfort and to provide [28:41] strength. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. It was. [29:08] What surprised me most was that you [29:09] started studying nursing and pursued a [29:11] nursing license. Because I had a female [29:15] friend in the U.S. who used to tell me, [29:17] "Let me tell you, being a nurse is a [29:19] really great job in America." I wanted [29:23] to get that license for years, but I [29:25] gave up and stopped. [29:28] >> It was so hard; there were many times I [29:30] wanted to cry. First, the language [29:35] requirements for nursing are much [29:37] higher than for other jobs, not to [29:38] mention all that specialized medical [29:40] terminology. [29:44] >> Just like law has its own legal jargon, [29:47] medicine has its own set of language, [29:49] >> a complete language of its own. Yeah. [29:53] >> But actually, I found that to be the [29:54] smallest hurdle. The biggest challenge [29:59] was the massive amount of English [30:00] material and assignments; I'd get this [30:02] huge stack every week, how could I [30:04] possibly finish it? That week, every [30:08] single day, I started at 7:00 AM and [30:10] went to bed at 11:00 PM; I never took a [30:12] break, it was like that every day. That [30:15] initial phase really made me want to [30:16] just lie on the floor and cry. What [30:19] courses do you need to take for this [30:21] nursing major? [30:23] >> The hardest subject in our prerequisite [30:25] program was anatomy and physiology. [30:28] >> Did you study that? As soon as I heard [30:30] it, I felt... [30:32] >> Pathology is also quite difficult, and [30:34] there’s also pharmacology. [30:36] Pharmacology is an especially tough [30:38] course. Plus, there's math, statistics, [30:42] English composition, and public [30:44] speaking. You take these prerequisites [30:50] and use that GPA to apply to nursing [30:52] school, then study for two years to get [30:54] this associate degree, it's called an [30:56] ADN, Associate Degree in Nursing. [31:02] Getting this degree just means you’re [31:04] eligible to sit for the licensure exam; [31:06] it doesn't mean you're a nurse just [31:07] because you passed these classes. No. [31:11] >> After finishing these courses, you have [31:13] to take the nursing license exam [31:15] separately, and that is extremely hard [31:17] to pass. [31:17] >> Right. [31:19] >> Everyone puts in so much immense effort [31:21] to prepare for that licensing exam. [31:24] >> They were all students in their 20s, [31:26] >> That's right. [31:27] >> Full of energy and able to memorize [31:29] things, [31:29] >> Younger than my own kids. [31:31] >> And you're in your 50s. [31:33] >> Yes. [31:34] >> It’s not easy for us to memorize [31:35] things. [31:36] >> Exactly. [31:37] >> And you’ve got a mountain of other [31:38] troubles in your life. Yeah. [31:40] >> Raising a family. [31:43] >> Working three jobs. [31:44] >> Yeah. [31:45] >> That whole process. [31:47] >> It was just so incredibly hard. [31:49] >> Yeah. [31:51] >> Did you end up being an A-student? [31:53] >> Hmm. [31:53] >> Another straight-A student. [31:55] >> I got all A's. [31:56] >> All A's? [31:57] >> Yes, all A's, except for one A-minus— [31:59] at this age, getting that is quite [32:01] something. [32:03] >> Ah, I’m once again amazed; you really [32:05] are no ordinary person. Ever since I [32:14] got my license, I feel like all that [32:16] pent-up frustration and the sense of [32:18] humiliation have finally subsided. Do [32:22] you like your job now? [32:24] >> I love it so much, I really do. Many [32:28] people don't quite understand it, [32:30] thinking it's exhausting work, and I'm [32:32] 56 and still working night shifts. [32:35] >> Sometimes I work three night shifts in [32:37] a row, and a night shift in the U.S. is [32:39] 12 hours long. During those three days [32:43] of night shifts, I'm constantly on the [32:45] move, but I find that I can handle it. [32:49] Some people pity me on my Weibo, saying [32:51] , "Oh, you're already a middle-aged [32:53] woman and you still have to work night [32:55] shifts," and all that. " [32:56] >> And having to serve others,"" [32:58] >> and having to serve others"—I replied [33:00] to them, saying you can pity yourself, [33:02] but don't pity others so casually. [33:05] Because other people's thoughts and [33:07] feelings are different from yours. I am [33:10] proud of myself. At this age, my body [33:13] is still in good shape, and I have the [33:15] ability to do this kind of work. I see [33:19] it as a gift from above, and I want to [33:21] make the most of it. I want to take [33:23] good care of my patients. I check on [33:26] them periodically to see if they're [33:28] asleep. If they are, I check if the [33:31] temperature is okay or if they're cold, [33:33] and I'll add a blanket. Just like that. [33:36] Sometimes the patient isn't asleep; [33:37] they're just sitting up. "Hey, can you [33:39] chat with me for a bit?" I say, "That [33:41] would be great!" I really love chatting [33:43] with my patients. And in the process of [33:46] chatting, not only do you soothe the [33:48] patient's emotions, but sometimes you [33:49] also gain a lot of very important [33:51] information. Let me give you a small [33:54] example: a patient was sitting in a [33:56] chair in the middle of the night, and I [33:58] asked, "Why aren't you sleeping yet?" [34:01] He said, "I can't sleep in this [34:02] hospital. When I lie down, I have [34:05] difficulty breathing.""At home, I sleep [34:08] sitting up, but my chair is very [34:10] comfortable and I can sleep very [34:12] soundly. The hospital provided a chair, [34:16] but look, I've been sitting here all [34:18] night and I haven't been able to sleep [34:20] at all.""I've been here for a week now. [34:24] Do you think I've changed at all?""They [34:27] just measure something every few days; [34:29] why do they have to keep me trapped in [34:31] this hospital?" Oh, when I heard that, [34:34] I realized there must have been a [34:36] communication breakdown, so I relayed [34:38] the situation to the doctor. [34:40] >> Hmm. [34:41] >> When I came back that night, I found [34:43] that he had already been discharged. I [34:46] was so happy. Do you think I have a [34:48] sense of value? I have a very strong [34:50] sense of value. [34:51] >> I once saw a post of yours on Weibo [34:53] where you said, "I am not a success in [34:55] life, much less a role model, and I [34:57] never want to pretend to be one." I [34:59] just like to express my love for life; [35:01] this passion is my vitality, which [35:03] keeps me from giving up, sinking, or [35:05] blaming others in any situation, [35:07] helping me find joy and meaning. I am [35:10] 51 years old now. I’m not successful; [35:14] I’ve made many mistakes and have many [35:16] regrets, but I still have my own dreams [35:18] to pursue and many wonderful plans [35:20] waiting—that’s when I was brewing [35:22] it. [35:25] >> It hasn't even started yet, actually, [35:27] so I wrote that passage to encourage [35:29] myself that even at my lowest point, [35:31] when it’s hard to keep going, I must [35:33] not be defeated by fear. [35:36] >> Mm. [35:38] >> Doing it is always harder than you [35:40] imagine, but so what? As long as you [35:45] start, once you get on that track, on [35:47] that ship, you will keep going. Once [35:51] you reach a certain state, you will [35:53] know. It is worth it. If you don’t [35:56] start walking, you will never have a [35:58] path. [35:58] >> Just start wading through, and [36:00] eventually, you'll be able to forge a [36:02] path. [36:03] >> Yes, it’s me; it’s actually a very [36:06] resilient and very tenacious [36:07] personality. Of course, I don’t [36:11] really want you to take everything I [36:13] say as absolute truth; don't take it as [36:15] truth. So, I think the best thing about [36:21] personal growth is that you constantly [36:23] reflect on yourself, look back at the [36:25] journey you’ve traveled, and go [36:26] through a process of understanding [36:28] yourself. [36:31] >> Right, uh, you’re 56, is that right? [36:34] >> That’s right. [36:35] >> At 56, you’ve settled yourself down [36:37] again. [36:38] >> Mm. I feel like I’ve been reborn, [36:40] living a whole other life. I have that [36:43] feeling. [36:44] >> Mm. [36:45] >> There was a popular movie this year. [36:46] >> Mm. [36:47] >> Called "Like a Rolling Stone." [36:48] >> Mm. [36:49] >> Based on a true story. [36:50] >> Mm. [36:51] >> It’s about an auntie. [36:52] >> Married for a lifetime, she finally [36:54] decided to divorce in her old age, and [36:55] after the divorce, she lived as a [36:57] completely different person. [36:59] >> Mm-hmm. That’s Su Min, right? Mm. [37:03] >> So it really resonates with many girls [37:05] who fear marriage. For young girls, I [37:13] think you can look at this from a [37:14] different angle, not to reject marriage [37:16] or fear it, but to ask if you have the [37:18] ability to leave an unsuitable marriage [37:20] early enough. As of now, I think the [37:30] broader issue women face is how to find [37:32] their own life value; where is the [37:34] fulcrum of my life? Simply put, finding [37:39] yourself. "Finding yourself" sounds [37:44] like a hollow concept, but what it [37:45] really means is finding your place in [37:47] this world as a person, as an [37:49] individual, regardless of whether [37:51] you're a man or a woman. Why am I [37:55] actually here in this world? [37:59] >> He also emphasizes the completeness and [38:01] growth of a woman's self, and the [38:02] pursuit of one's own value. When you [38:05] mentioned your divorce just now, I've [38:07] heard this sentiment so many times: "I [38:09] wasn't the one who made a mistake." [38:10] >> Mhm. " [38:11] >> He's the one who made the mistake."" [38:13] >> Why should I be divorced just because [38:15] he messed up? It’s like he doesn't [38:17] even want me anymore." See, she says, " [38:20] He doesn't want me." Are you just [38:23] someone else’s property? You aren't [38:26] an individual; you are still in a [38:28] subordinate position. [38:30] >> Mhm, mhm. "He chose to marry me, and [38:32] that was a gift; if he wants to divorce [38:35] me, it means he doesn't want me, and I [38:37] have no face to show anyone." In [38:39] reality, it’s not like that at all. [38:42] >> Once a person is truly complete within [38:44] themselves—and it's the same for both [38:46] women and men—I stand on my own two [38:48] feet. [38:50] >> Then I am mentally whole; I have my own [38:52] sense of security and self-worth. [38:55] >> In that state, honestly, anything is [38:57] fine. It’s just... [39:00] >> I don't hate men. I don't deconstruct [39:03] men either. [39:05] >> It’s just about living a complete [39:06] life yourself first. Once you are [39:08] living a complete life, you are free. [39:11] >> Yes, I completely agree with that. What [39:13] does "freedom" actually mean? Let me [39:15] put it this way, Teacher Zhang Yue, [39:17] speaking of my current state. [39:19] >> To me, marriage is absolutely not a [39:21] necessity. [39:22] >> Mhm. Absolutely not a necessity, and [39:26] love is no longer a necessity either. [39:29] But why am I still dating? The [39:32] fundamental reason is that I truly feel [39:34] I am complete; I am already [39:36] self-sufficient. In a state of [39:38] self-sufficiency. [39:41] >> Yes, only when your heart is truly [39:43] self-sufficient can you call it freedom [39:44] . She was a very ordinary village woman [39:49] from rural Shaanxi. [39:52] >> But she did have a more diligent mind [39:54] and a deeper capacity for feeling than [39:56] most people. [40:00] >> And she was filled with a longing for [40:02] culture, for civilization, and for the [40:04] distant, unknown world. [40:07] >> Back then, when she talked to me about [40:09] being unhappy, I asked, "What is there [40:11] to be unhappy about? Life isn't hard in [40:14] your village, everyone..." [40:17] >> And she said, " [40:17] >> My husband is very good to me."" [40:20] >> Ah," she said, "The rule here is, as a [40:22] woman, if you have money, buying [40:24] clothes...""... [40:27] >> is fine." [40:28] >> Mhm. " [40:29] >> But wanting to buy books is wrong." Mhm [40:32] . " [40:33] >> If you buy a house or land, it’s fine [40:35] , but if you want to travel, that’s [40:38] wrong. This is the rule everyone has to [40:41] follow—you just can't be restless." [40:44] >> My body complies, but my heart [40:47] >> does not. [40:48] >> I am unwilling. I have been nowhere and [40:51] know nothing. As long as I have food to [40:54] eat and clothes to wear, I am satisfied [40:56] . I would rather suffer than be numb. [40:59] Mm. [41:00] >> This statement shocked many people at [41:02] the time, and it still shocks many [41:04] today. [41:06] >> Then a reporter named An Xiaoqing from [41:07] Renwu Magazine came to me and said he [41:09] had to interview Liu Xiaoyang. It had [41:12] been over 20 years, but after much [41:14] difficulty, we finally found her again [41:16] and conducted a new interview. [41:19] >> An Xiaoqing wrote an article about Liu [41:21] Xiaoyang called "Nora on the Plain," [41:22] covering her past and present. The [41:25] article was excellent. But Liu Xiaoyang [41:28] told me, "I don't agree with this title [41:30] ."" [41:31] >> I don't agree with you calling me Nora. [41:33] "" [41:34] >> Nora left home."" [41:36] >> I won't leave," she said. "I can never [41:39] abandon my home, and I can never [41:41] abandon my children." [41:43] >> Mm. [41:45] >> And so, I discovered that over these 20 [41:47] -plus years, she did indeed try her [41:49] best to go out, working in big cities [41:51] and down south, but for instance, when [41:53] her mother-in-law fell seriously ill, [41:56] >> she would return, [41:57] >> to care for the elderly until they [41:59] passed, or because the kids had high [42:00] school entrance exams, [42:01] >> to care for the kids, or when it was [42:02] time for college entrance exams, to [42:04] care for the kids. In the end, she [42:05] stopped going out. She was getting [42:07] older, didn't have high academic [42:08] qualifications, couldn't find a decent [42:10] job, and had to stay home. Eventually, [42:12] she just settled down to stay home, [42:14] farming corn and wheat. [42:15] >> Mm. [42:17] >> Even so, I later discovered that she [42:19] never gave up that spiritual [42:20] sensitivity and independence; this is [42:22] very... [42:23] >> that is, poetry and distant places are [42:25] all in her heart. [42:26] >> Mm. [42:27] >> I found that after reading so many [42:29] books over the years, do you know what [42:31] she brought up to me? It was Sisyphus [42:33] and his stone. [42:35] >> Oh. [42:35] >> We talked about "The Old Man and the [42:37] Sea." [42:37] >> She asked, "Do you think that old man [42:39] ...""... [42:39] >> who used all his strength to drag back [42:41] a fish skeleton..." [42:42] >> Mm. "... [42:43] >> gained nothing at all?""No, he is a [42:45] hero." Mm. [42:46] >> Truly, all of her thinking and insights [42:49] are not inferior to those of urban [42:51] intellectuals. She has such a rich [42:53] spiritual life, yet in reality, in the [42:56] village, she is the most ordinary woman [42:58] working in the fields, and in her [43:00] village, she is the woman who fears no [43:02] fatigue and can work the hardest. Are [43:04] you thinking of farming corn and [43:06] selling wheat? [43:07] >> No, because I caught a glimpse of some [43:08] of her footage that hasn't aired or [43:10] been released yet—I saw a little bit [43:12] —and I actually think it's because [43:13] she farms every day, [43:15] >> Because she is grounded, because she [43:17] has this very mundane work, the daily [43:19] chores she has to do, she has never [43:21] left the land. I feel her whole [43:23] spiritual vitality, I sense it comes [43:25] precisely from this, from her staying [43:27] right there. [43:28] >> She once tried to break out, tried [43:30] going to work in the city, but ended up [43:32] coming back. Then, in this daily [43:34] routine—I don't know how the [43:36] chemistry works—but I feel it's [43:38] precisely because she never left life [43:39] behind. [43:41] >> In turn, that noble part of her hasn't [43:43] been worn away. Mm. [43:45] >> One day we were on the phone, and I [43:46] asked, "What are you doing?" She said, [43:49] "I'm standing in the fields." [43:50] >> Mm. [43:51] >> Then she said, "There are so many [43:52] things in this life I’ve longed for [43:54] that I couldn't achieve." [43:56] >> Mm. " [43:57] >> It's just that my education level isn't [43:59] high enough." [44:00] >> Mm. " [44:01] >> But I know how to farm." [44:02] >> Mm. [44:03] >> She said, "You don't know how good I [44:05] feel about my farming."" [44:06] >> I’m standing here right now, and all [44:08] the wheat stretching out beneath my [44:09] feet is what I’ve planted." [44:11] >> Mm. " [44:11] >> I feel so content." Mm. [44:13] >> That day, after hearing her say that, I [44:15] was just... [44:16] >> So happy. [44:17] >> So very happy. [44:18] >> Mm. [44:19] >> Honestly, I think it was the happiest [44:21] I’d been in years. [44:22] >> Then I went around telling people, [44:24] saying, "Do you know, farming is [44:25] actually wonderful now?" It was that [44:27] kind of happiness—a very solid, [44:29] grounded kind of happiness. It’s that [44:32] you can truly be rooted in daily life, [44:34] while at the same time maintaining a [44:36] rich inner world and a noble soul. [44:40] Later, because back then she told me, [44:42] about wearing red clothes, she said, " [44:44] Look at you city women, how elegant you [44:46] are. You look so good even in black. I [44:50] don't dare. Everything here is dirt. If [44:53] I wore dark clothes, I’d just [44:55] disappear. I have to wear red, I have [44:58] to stand out in the dirt with red."" [45:00] It's just that..." and you can feel her [45:02] yearning. [45:02] >> Mm. [45:03] >> And... [45:03] >> How old is she? [45:04] >> She's from the seventies. [45:06] >> The seventies? Same as us. [45:07] >> Yes, and then the day before yesterday [45:09] when I saw her, I realized she wasn't [45:10] wearing red anymore. She was wearing [45:12] something very ordinary. [45:13] >> Mm, a T-shirt and jeans or something. [45:16] >> I asked, "Why aren't you wearing red [45:17] anymore?" She said, "Red clothes don't [45:20] have to be worn on the body; they can [45:22] be worn in the heart." Then she said, " [45:25] Haven't you noticed I put on lipstick [45:26] every day?" She wears lipstick even [45:29] when she's working. That is her red [45:31] clothing. [45:32] >> Oh. [45:34] >> Uh, when we talk about Nora walking out [45:37] ...When we feel this is an ode to [45:38] female awakening that has been passed [45:40] down for centuries, do we ever think [45:42] about what happens to the children left [45:45] behind at home after Nora leaves? [45:48] >> Mm. [45:49] >> Losing maternal companionship. Didn't [45:51] Lu Xun basically sentence him to death [45:53] after he left? Right? After he left, [45:56] did he either die or have to go home [45:58] because of financial issues? Actually, [46:01] there is an American film about this, [46:03] directed by Daldry, called The Hours. [46:07] >> There is a segment in that film that is [46:09] very similar to this, set around the [46:11] 50s or 60s. Wait, is it the Virginia [46:13] Woolf one? The Woolf one. [46:15] >> The one about Virginia Woolf. [46:17] >> Woolf's story has several threads; one [46:19] is the story of Woolf herself [46:21] committing suicide. [46:24] >> Another is Mrs. Dalloway, written by [46:26] Woolf. [46:27] >> Mrs. Dalloway. Mrs. Dalloway is [46:30] portrayed as a modern-day woman helping [46:32] a friend plan a party. Do you remember [46:37] what the party was for? It was because [46:40] her male poet friend had won a major [46:42] award. [46:43] >> She was helping him host a celebration. [46:45] >> Mm-hmm. [46:46] >> Right, that’s one layer of the story. [46:49] Another layer, set in the 50s or 60s, [46:51] is an American middle-class family. [46:54] They seem happy and have a great life, [46:56] but the mother is deeply unhappy. She [47:02] feels stifled, feeling that the life of [47:04] a middle-class housewife—serving her [47:06] husband, caring for the kids, baking [47:08] cakes, keeping the house beautiful—is [47:10] oppressive and hypocritical, and she [47:12] desperately wants to leave it all [47:14] behind. She even contemplates suicide [47:19] several times, but ultimately can't [47:20] bring herself to do it. Then one day, [47:23] she decides to leave, and when she [47:25] walks out, she just leaves the young [47:27] child behind. [47:28] >> Mm-hmm. [47:29] >> She drives off, and the little boy, [47:31] maybe four or five years old...... [47:34] >> is left running after his mother, [47:36] crying, while she drives away to find [47:38] herself, abandoning the child. [47:43] >> That child is the same poet for whom [47:44] Mrs. Dalloway is throwing the [47:46] celebration. [47:48] >> He grew up. [47:50] >> Throughout his life, despite being [47:52] talented and a successful writer, he is [47:54] deeply conflicted. He can never sustain [47:58] intimate relationships, constantly [48:00] finding partners only to break up, and [48:01] he is filled with self-loathing. On the [48:05] day he wins the award and everyone [48:07] comes to celebrate, he sits on the [48:09] windowsill, drinks heavily, and jumps [48:11] out the window. [48:11] >> Mm-hmm. [48:12] >> To his death. He committed suicide. [48:16] >> And a child who lost his mother at a [48:18] young age...... [48:21] >> perhaps can never cherish himself, and [48:23] perhaps can never enter into an [48:25] intimate relationship. Later, decades [48:29] after she left, the mother—now a [48:31] woman who has finally found herself— [48:33] returns to take care of her son’s [48:35] funeral arrangements. [48:38] >> And she even has a conversation with [48:40] Meryl Streep. [48:41] >> When you see this, what do you think [48:43] should be done? You cannot condemn a [48:45] woman's awakening [48:47] >> and her departure, [48:48] >> Hmm. [48:50] >> But no one lives in this world in [48:52] isolation; everyone is connected to [48:54] others. Every action you take affects [48:58] the joy and sorrow of those around you. [49:02] So, it's all interconnected. What can [49:04] you do? How can you be considerate of [49:07] yourself while also being considerate [49:08] of everyone else? It's impossible, [49:11] simply impossible. So, after watching [49:14] it, I feel I can neither praise nor [49:16] condemn either side. It's not about [49:20] that; it's a dilemma, a life dilemma, [49:23] just like Kim Ji-young, Born 1982 or [49:25] the 1972 Wang Zhiqiang, they are all [49:28] dilemmas. [49:30] >> Hmm. [49:31] >> No one can solve it. And blaming each [49:33] other won't solve it either. [49:34] >> Hmm. Then, what do you think creation [49:37] is for? What are films and novels for? [49:40] Just present it, just present it. We [49:43] can only present life's dilemmas, and [49:44] let everyone think and make their own [49:46] choices. What else can you do? [49:49] >> Like*The Graduate*. We all feel the [49:53] ending is warm, but the final shot— [49:55] Dustin Hoffman has won the princess, [49:57] the prince and princess are together— [50:00] but his expression is one of [50:01] bewilderment. Not exactly depressed, [50:06] just lost, as if questioning whether [50:08] this is the start or the end of life. [50:11] >> Didn't Oscar Wilde say it? There are [50:13] two tragedies in life: one is not [50:14] getting what you want, the other is [50:15] getting it. [50:16] >> What you wanted. [50:17] >> Recommend me a Korean film, *The Book [50:19] of Fish*. Yes, that film, it's very [50:23] good, filmed in black and white. [50:26] Excellent, that's the one. Actually, I [50:29] later heard some theories from [50:31] researchers of Korean cinema. They said [50:35] it's true, because of the background at [50:37] the time—the Ming Dynasty's [50:38] Neo-Confucianism had spread to the [50:40] Korean Peninsula. Some accepted these [50:44] strict teachings, while others [50:46] gradually began to resist the [50:47] restrictive aspects. The film is about [50:51] two brothers who were both court [50:52] officials, and their families were [50:54] implicated, so they were both sent into [50:56] exile. The older brother went to a [50:59] place where he remained steadfast, [51:01] insisting on teaching rituals, writing [51:03] poetry and essays, and working on grand [51:05] literary projects, continuing in his [51:07] own way. Meanwhile, the younger brother [51:11] went to an island called Heishan, where [51:13] he abandoned those pursuits to live and [51:15] fish with the local fishermen, [51:16] eventually writing a book on fish for [51:18] them. He wanted to know what kind of [51:21] fish these were, what their habits were [51:23] , and when exactly they could be caught [51:25] ; none of this was understood before. [51:27] People asked, "What are you doing? You [51:29] are an intellectual; why are you doing [51:32] such mundane things?""Why do such [51:34] trivial things?" Later, after he passed [51:36] away, his disciples returned to the [51:38] officialdom and gradually began to [51:39] understand what their teacher had been [51:41] doing. [51:42] >> You have to step into real life and [51:43] join the masses. [51:45] >> Yes, and by writing this book on fish, [51:47] his own philosophical thinking actually [51:49] advanced a step further. Because he [51:51] discovered that in the process of [51:53] studying the fish, by gaining a deep [51:55] understanding of them, he realized that [51:57] each fish has its own way, its own path [51:59] to follow. Then he had an epiphany, and [52:01] his understanding of Confucianism also [52:03] reached a new level. [52:04] >> Life became his true philosophy; the [52:06] final message he left for his brother [52:08] was his legacy. [52:09] >> It truly is a philosophy of practice. [52:12] He said that being like a crane, [52:14] standing tall and aloof, clean and [52:16] noble, is perfectly fine, but being [52:18] like a lotus, rooted in the mud, is [52:20] also wonderful. [52:23] >> That film deeply moved and profoundly [52:25] affected me. [52:27] >> It is rare to see such a film— [52:31] >> A film about the inner journey and [52:33] academic path of a pure intellectual— [52:35] filmed so beautifully and compellingly. [52:39] >> Yes, it was a very small-budget film, [52:41] yet it became a huge hit in South Korea [52:43] . [52:43] >> I even thought to myself, "Why didn't [52:45] we make this in China? This is a film [52:47] about Sinology." The best comment I saw [52:49] was, "Can't the story of Su Dongpo be [52:51] filmed in the same way?" Isn't that [52:53] just how it is? Wherever he went, he [52:55] cooked Dongpo pork, taught children to [52:57] read and practice calligraphy; there [52:58] are stories like that, and paths like [53:00] that, too. [53:02] >> Ordinary life—if a person can truly [53:04] enter into an ordinary life, creating [53:06] and working— [53:08] >> Failure. [53:09] >> Failure, yes. Growth is about constant [53:12] enrichment and continuous experience; [53:14] that is what holds power, and it is [53:16] what can nourish your heart and sustain [53:18] you for the road ahead. Listening to [53:21] you talk about the process of [53:22] interviewing Liu Xiaoyang, did she also [53:25] bring a sense of immense energy to you? [53:28] >> It's immense, whether it's Liu [53:30] Xiaoyang's life or, for example, movies [53:33] like "Mountain Patrol," [53:36] >> I feel that the immense power radiating [53:38] from real life, [53:42] >> is even greater than the power given to [53:44] me by a well-written book or a highly [53:46] sophisticated way of living. [53:48] >> What do you mean by a "sophisticated" [53:50] way of living? These days I see this [53:52] term being... " [53:53] >> Sophisticated" comes up a lot. Let me [53:56] give an example, though it might not be [53:57] the most appropriate one. Everyone has [54:01] been discussing a girl from Shanghai [54:02] named Sha Baibai who went for [54:05] >> euthanasia because she had lupus, which [54:08] later led to kidney failure, and she [54:10] had to undergo dialysis constantly. [54:13] >> Mm. [54:13] >> So she wanted euthanasia. On one hand, [54:16] many people praised her, saying how [54:17] brave she was and that she was an [54:19] example for how we face life and death. [54:21] >> On the other hand, many people attacked [54:23] her, saying she was escaping life's [54:25] difficulties, even calling her unfilial [54:27] to her parents, criticizing her for [54:29] having her parents bury their child, [54:31] and so on. When I read this news, I [54:35] felt I couldn't criticize or praise her [54:37] choice, because it is a personal [54:39] decision. [54:42] >> You might think that living while [54:44] undergoing dialysis is still quite good [54:45] —at least you're alive. But she felt [54:48] that having to spend every other day on [54:50] dialysis meant her life was being [54:52] wasted, her quality of life was low, so [54:54] she chose not to continue. She wanted a [54:56] different kind of life—more beautiful [54:58] , more interesting, and richer. A life [55:01] of greater freedom; she didn't want a [55:03] life shackled by illness. This was her [55:07] personal choice, so I think praise and [55:09] criticism are both unnecessary; we [55:11] should just respect people's personal [55:13] choices. Facing the same situation, I [55:17] think of another choice, [55:19] >> that of a writer I respect very much, [55:21] Mr. Shi Tiesheng. [55:22] >> Mm. He first had a spinal tumor that [55:25] kept him in a wheelchair for many years [55:27] , then later developed kidney failure [55:29] and had to undergo dialysis every other [55:31] day forever. I never saw him complain [55:33] about the dialysis. Anyone would be [55:35] annoyed; who would enjoy that kind of [55:37] life? [55:38] >> And back then, dialysis wasn't covered; [55:40] you know it could bankrupt a family and [55:42] was an incredibly painful experience. [55:45] >> Yet you could still see him living [55:47] normally. He made it a part of his [55:49] normal life. When it was time for [55:51] dialysis, he went. Since the dialysis [55:53] process took a very long time, what did [55:56] he do during it? He never complained [55:57] about how annoying or painful things [55:59] were; most of the time he just read [56:01] books. [56:01] >> Right. [56:02] >> Or if friends came to visit, he’d [56:04] chat with them, and when he was tired, [56:06] he’d sleep. [56:08] >> If he finished dialysis today and felt [56:10] better tomorrow, he would write. [56:14] That’s how he spent decades, right up [56:16] until he passed away. He accepted all [56:20] his suffering and turned it into [56:22] nourishing words. [56:24] >> These, these words... [56:26] >> Yes, so full of energy. Even after all [56:28] these years, how many people today [56:29] still... [56:30] >> You see, my carpet, how I look at it, [56:32] how I... [56:33] >> Yes, every day you can find different [56:34] suggestions, and you can draw strength [56:36] from them. Look at "Fragments of [56:38] Illness"—that was written during [56:40] constant severe illness and endless [56:42] dialysis. Because he could only write [56:44] in small pieces, he couldn't write long [56:46] passages given his physical condition. [56:48] But what incredibly powerful words [56:49] those are! I’ve always felt those [56:52] words were a ladder helping me climb [56:53] upward. [56:56] >> If it weren’t for his words, my [56:57] mental state would surely be much worse [56:59] than it is now. [57:02] >> So I believe he must have nourished [57:04] many, many people, including myself. Mm [57:07] . [57:08] >> Then, when he finally passed away, he [57:10] left instructions to donate any of his [57:12] organs that could still be used. [57:16] >> Later, on the day he passed away... [57:19] >> Because the transplant had to be done [57:21] while the organs were still fresh; if [57:23] too much time passed, they couldn't be [57:25] used. [57:25] >> Mm. [57:27] >> He passed away at a hospital in the [57:29] eastern part of the city, and at night, [57:30] you know, we had to get to the General [57:32] Hospital in the west to perform the... [57:36] >> Organ donation. [57:37] >> Yes, to remove and transplant them. [57:41] >> It was an incredibly difficult journey. [57:45] >> Everyone was so worried, afraid the [57:47] organs wouldn't be usable; we really [57:49] hoped to fulfill his wish and make them [57:51] count. [57:55] >> I was away on a business trip that day [57:57] and not in Beijing, so some of my [57:59] friends drove their own cars in front [58:01] of the ambulance carrying Mr. [58:02] Tiesheng’s body, clearing the way to [58:04] ensure it got to the General Hospital [58:06] as quickly as possible. [58:10] >> Mm. [58:11] >> Just to guarantee... [58:12] >> Completion. [58:13] >> Completion. [58:14] >> And later, I heard from the doctor... [58:16] >> Mm. [58:18] >> It was a very young father. [58:20] >> Mm. [58:21] >> He was dying of liver failure. [58:22] >> Mm. [58:23] >> His wife was pregnant. [58:24] >> Mm. [58:26] >> He just wanted to live a few more [58:27] months; he said he just wanted to see [58:29] his child born. [58:31] >> Mm. [58:31] >> To be a father for a little while. [58:33] >> Mm. [58:34] >> But then, as a result of Mr. Tiesheng's [58:36] ... [58:37] >> It was donated. [58:38] >> It was donated. [58:39] >> How beautiful. [58:40] >> It saved that young father. He... [58:42] >> He got to see his child born. [58:44] >> Mm. [58:46] >> Yes, that’s why I say it was such a [58:48] choice. [58:49] >> Mm. [58:51] >> He endured all that suffering and left [58:52] behind so much nourishment for the [58:54] world. [58:55] >> Yes, by providing spiritual nourishment [58:58] to so many, his physical body continues [59:00] to help others and live on through them [59:02] . [59:04] >> True, this is someone who underwent [59:06] dialysis for decades, so would I say [59:07] that girl’s choice was wrong? I [59:11] don’t think so, because she liked [59:13] that kind of life, so I respect her [59:14] choice, and that kind of personality [59:16] she had... [59:18] >> You know, that kind of free-spirited [59:20] nature is really attractive, but if you [59:22] ask me which choice I respect more, or [59:24] which one I’m more willing to learn [59:26] from... [59:27] >> Mm. [59:28] >> It would definitely be Teacher Tie [59:30] Sheng’s choice. [59:33] >> Mm, so this is why I say when we enter [59:35] our daily lives and experience those [59:37] extremely difficult days... [59:45] >> If we can truly brew a bit of wisdom [59:47] and nourishment for ourselves and this [59:48] world within this difficult daily life [59:50] ... [59:54] >> That is... [59:56] >> A truly wonderful thing. That’s why [59:59] lives like Liu Xiaoyang’s and films [60:01] like*Still Life*make me feel that we [60:02] enter into the ordinary. And as long as [60:06] you are alive, keep living, you will [60:07] always see something. Like that [60:09] European film, what’s it called? A [60:11] man who decides to die. Someone... [60:13] >> A man decides to die, right? Just keep [60:16] living, keep living. [60:18] >> You will always see something. [60:19] >> Some daily lives are so difficult that [60:22] even death is not an option. I watched [60:25] a documentary about a child who had [60:27] this illness from a very early age—I [60:29] don't even remember the name of the [60:31] condition—he was just lying there, [60:33] only one finger could move. [60:36] >> Mm. [60:37] >> But he didn’t die; he kept living. [60:40] His parents, with this grown son now in [60:42] his twenties lying in bed every day, [60:44] they had to make a board themselves... [60:46] To move him from the bed to another [60:48] place, like to wash him or wipe him [60:49] down, then move him back. Parents don't [60:53] have the right to decide a child's life [60:54] or death, right? They can't just do [60:56] that. [60:57] >> Every single day like this. [60:58] >> Until one day, they discovered DNA gene [61:01] editing technology. [61:03] >> Mm. [61:04] >> Mm. [61:05] >> And it improved his situation. I think [61:07] this ties back to what we just [61:09] discussed: the capacity for failure, [61:11] the ability to accept failure, the [61:13] ability to accept the massive blows in [61:15] life—often, we just need that [61:17] capacity to endure. [61:19] >> Right, which brings us back to why [61:21] classics are classics, and why many of [61:23] them still hold value and power [61:25] hundreds of years later. Speaking of [61:28] enduring suffering and letting go... [61:31] >> I’m reminded of writers like [61:33] Dostoevsky. Of course, I’m sure many [61:36] young people would be impatient hearing [61:38] this, saying, "Why should I have to [61:39] suffer?" [61:40] >> Mm. [61:41] >> I understand, nobody wants to. [61:44] >> But what if you can't avoid it? [61:46] >> Well, it's very likely that you won't. [61:48] Almost 100%of people will run into it. [61:51] >> Since you've run into it, you'll just [61:53] have to make your own choice. [61:54] >> Uh, you can try to escape it, well, if [61:57] you can escape, if you really can. [61:59] >> Hmm. [62:00] >> Right, it's highly likely you can't [62:02] escape it. But in some cases you can. [62:04] Basically, my observation is that if [62:06] you escape it this time, it will come [62:08] back in another form later. It's like [62:10] God has set a law of conservation of [62:12] energy. [62:13] >> Right, you have to pass this test. [62:15] >> Mm. [62:15] >> Mm. So, it will still come back, and [62:18] you will still be tested. So when I run [62:21] into these terrible situations, I often [62:23] think that if I don't solve it now, it [62:25] will return later. [62:27] >> If I don't solve it in this lifetime, [62:29] I'll have to in the next. Why not just [62:31] solve it now? [62:32] >> Might as well face it head on. [62:34] >> Yes, that's exactly the situation. [62:37] Since you have to face it anyway. [62:40] >> It. [62:40] >> There's a Japanese film called " [62:42] Memories of Matsuko." Matsuko keeps [62:44] trying and trying, and even though she [62:46] ends up being inexplicably beaten to [62:48] death by that kid, at that moment she [62:51] has a [62:51] >> new hope born in her heart. After [62:53] watching it, it gives you a great [62:55] understanding of people, [62:57] >> compassion for the world, and great [62:59] strength. This is also about ordinary [63:02] life. I think Japan and Britain have [63:04] another, how should I put it? A [63:06] presentation system. Because I teach [63:10] British literature, I've always noticed [63:12] two very powerful themes in it. One is [63:15] about economics. All their romance [63:18] novels are always about economics, so [63:20] there is always money in the background [63:21] . From "Pride and Prejudice," money is [63:24] always the big boss. No matter what [63:27] kind of love it is, money always ends [63:29] up appearing as a figure. I think this [63:31] is remarkable. In many of our own [63:34] popular texts, money seems invisible, [63:36] yet its presence is actually crucial. [63:39] The other very important point is that [63:41] they repeatedly strike down the theme [63:42] of hope. A lot of our texts are all [63:45] about hope, like you just mentioned. [63:49] It’s wonderful, as if there is [63:50] something like hope there, but the [63:52] British, as well as the Japanese, they [63:54] always strike down hope; they cast hope [63:56] aside first. There’s a great film by [63:59] Keisuke Kinoshita called "The Scent of [64:01] Incense," or*Fuefukigawa*. In the story [64:05] , the main character is married four [64:07] times and is left with four children; [64:09] her life is incredibly bitter, and her [64:11] youngest daughter eventually asks her, [64:13] "Mom, have you ever thought about the [64:15] question of happiness?" Her mother [64:19] replies, and while I don’t recall the [64:21] exact quote, she essentially says, "Why [64:23] are you asking me such a modern, [64:25] trivial question?" She means that [64:28] happiness or hope aren't things she [64:30] considers; simply living and rooting [64:32] herself in life is enough. So, why is [64:35] it titled "The Scent of Incense"? It's [64:37] because incense sticks only grow well [64:39] where there is lightning. [64:40] >> It suggests that only after you’ve [64:42] endured boundless suffering, or even [64:44] when there is no hope left, can you [64:46] truly begin to live. British cinema [64:48] often conveys this as well—it [64:50] constantly seeks to destroy hope, [64:51] suggesting that those who hold onto it [64:53] are ultimately punished by it. This [64:56] includes Lee, whose desperate hope for [64:58] his daughter’s resurrection [64:59] ultimately destroys him and drives him [65:01] to madness. Their films consistently [65:03] strike a blow against the concept of [65:05] hope. Since we were talking about [65:07] family and marital relationships [65:09] earlier, I was reminded of a British [65:11] film called "Hope Gap." It follows a [65:14] couple who have been married for [65:15] decades, seemingly living a very loving [65:17] life together. Then one day, the [65:19] husband suddenly asks his wife for a [65:21] divorce. He says, "I've had someone [65:23] else in my life for a year now, and I'm [65:25] leaving you." The wife is completely [65:28] devastated; she thinks, "We've always [65:30] been so happy, our son is doing well, [65:32] the whole family is fine—how can you [65:34] just walk away?" She’s filled with [65:37] resentment, so she goes to the place [65:39] where he and his new partner live to [65:40] see if their life is any different from [65:42] the one they shared. I won't go into [65:46] the details, but only after all her [65:47] hope was completely destroyed did this [65:49] woman finally find her own life. [65:52] >> Only then did she reclaim her life; [65:54] hope... [65:55] >> What is it really? It’s about [65:56] discovering your own truth within all [65:58] of that. He wrote that story himself, [66:01] and little by little became—well, not [66:03] exactly a writer, but someone who wrote [66:05] himself into existence, slowly [66:07] re-entering life after all his hopes [66:09] had been destroyed. True, when it comes [66:12] to English literature, as Professor Mao [66:14] says, in novels like Pride and [66:16] Prejudice, the underlying theme is [66:18] always about money. [66:19] >> They had to find a wealthy partner to [66:21] marry. [66:21] >> The very first sentence of the novel [66:22] states it: It is a truth universally [66:24] acknowledged that a single man in [66:25] possession of a good fortune must be in [66:26] want of a wife; so, this wealth is the [66:28] ultimate governing law. Well, if you [66:29] take it a step further, why write it [66:31] like this, and where does the value lie [66:33] ? It’s because, in that era, women in [66:37] England had no right to inherit real [66:39] estate. [66:41] >> That is to say, if a family only had [66:43] daughters and no sons, [66:46] >> then the daughters had to find a good [66:48] family to marry into before their [66:49] parents passed away. Otherwise, once [66:54] their parents were gone, they [66:55] couldn’t inherit the house or land; [66:57] it would go to a distant male relative [66:59] instead. It wouldn’t go to the [67:02] daughters, so they would be left [67:03] destitute. In Pride and Prejudice, that [67:05] family was in exactly that position [67:07] because they had no sons. [67:08] >> So the parents were desperate to find [67:09] wealthy matches for their daughters. [67:11] Five daughters—finding five [67:12] sons-in-law is a huge undertaking— [67:14] they had to get them married off [67:15] quickly. Actually, Jane Austen was in [67:17] the same situation during her lifetime. [67:19] Her mother was also anxious to marry [67:21] her off to someone with good prospects, [67:22] but she never did get married. She, she [67:25] was truly [67:27] >> remarkable. In fact, she had one [67:30] incredible opportunity to marry in her [67:32] life. But she agreed that day, when the [67:35] person proposed to her. That man was a [67:38] future judge, and he was quite charming [67:40] , even a bit younger than her, and came [67:42] from a very good family. If she had [67:44] accepted his proposal, not only could [67:46] she have married him, but she could [67:47] have taken her sister and mother with [67:49] her, ensuring their lives were [67:51] worry-free. Yet, she got up the next [67:53] morning and turned him down; that is [67:54] truly what makes her great. This is a [67:56] lot like Elizabeth in Pride and [67:58] Prejudice—Mr. Darcy, such a perfect [68:01] man, came to propose to her, and she [68:03] actually refused. If we saw this scene [68:06] today, we would definitely interpret it [68:08] as a young girl being coy or difficult [68:10] in a romantic drama—a cute kind of [68:11] stubbornness. Of course, in the end, [68:14] the "CEO" type will still want to marry [68:16] me, because he simply can't do without [68:18] me. In fact, for a woman in that era to [68:22] do such a thing, what made her [68:23] remarkable was risking her future for [68:25] the sake of dignity and true love. [68:29] >> Immense courage. [68:31] >> Immense courage, and that is why the [68:33] work is [68:34] >> so valuable. Why is it a classic? Just [68:36] finding a partner and bickering every [68:38] day—why is that a classic? She [68:40] established the grammar for how people [68:42] would meet and fall in love in the [68:43] future; it’s Austen's grammar. So you [68:45] see, all these "CEO" encounters today [68:47] were actually set by Austen! Elizabeth [68:50] meeting Darcy is the archetype of a [68:52] boss meeting someone—not exactly a [68:54] Cinderella, but someone of a much lower [68:56] status—then they misunderstand each [68:58] other, resolve it, and reconcile. That [69:00] was all designed by Austen. But the [69:02] entire foundation Austen set had an [69:03] economic basis, whereas we don't see [69:05] money in our current idol dramas. [69:07] Because people think money is ugly, but [69:09] in reality [69:09] >> Right, people feel that money isn't a [69:11] romantic enough thing. Actually, this [69:13] is also about concrete life. Speaking [69:15] of this female writer, [69:18] >> I’ve been reading quite a few of [69:19] Beauvoir’s memoirs, letters, and [69:23] >> interviews lately. I’ve been thinking [69:26] , whenever people talk about marriage [69:27] or intimate relationships, they often [69:29] cite Beauvoir and Sartre as an example, [69:31] which I think is a huge [69:33] misunderstanding and a hallucination [69:35] that "oh, they had such a great open [69:36] relationship." It is absolutely not. [69:39] Beyond that, their relationship was [69:41] actually full of holes. The first step [69:46] for this relationship to exist was that [69:48] Beauvoir had no money then and couldn't [69:50] provide a dowry, so she couldn't demand [69:51] he marry her. Second, many say, didn't [69:56] Sartre just deceive her? Saying he had [70:00] a "red flag" at home while having many [70:02] mistresses outside—why could Beauvoir [70:04] accept that? According to some current [70:08] memoirs, it’s said that Sartre [70:10] wasn’t actually that capable when it [70:12] came to sex. [70:16] >> Right, it seems his interactions with [70:18] other women didn't necessarily reach [70:20] that point; there was only love and [70:22] intimacy, nothing substantial. And [70:27] Beauvoir had her own lovers too. [70:30] >> But she said the reason she couldn't [70:32] continue with her American lover—when [70:34] people asked her why—was that he [70:36] wanted to replace Sartre. It meant that [70:39] no matter how good we were, we couldn't [70:41] surpass that relationship; Sartre [70:42] remained number one in my heart. But at [70:45] the time, a German journalist asked her [70:47] : "This relationship of yours, a [70:49] relationship the whole world sees as [70:51] special, is it built on the [70:52] exploitation of others? No one can [70:55] really enjoy this kind of relationship, [70:57] right?" That's the first point. The [70:59] second is, towards the end, when Sartre [71:01] got old and eventually passed away, you [71:03] could see how much Beauvoir still loved [71:05] him, and to what extent. He had already [71:08] passed, and his body was in the [71:10] hospital. Beauvoir rushed over, wanting [71:12] to lie down next to his body. [71:14] >> Then the doctor told her, "You can't be [71:16] in here right now, because [71:17] decomposition has already set in." [71:19] >> She still stayed just outside the [71:21] mortuary, separated by a curtain, and [71:23] slept there for an entire night with [71:24] Sartre. [71:27] >> And when this whole scene with Sartre [71:29] came to an end, the fight began over [71:31] who would inherit his manuscripts, [71:33] because Sartre had another very, very [71:35] intimate lover at the time, and the two [71:37] began to... [71:40] >> Oh my, isn't this just the kind of [71:42] palace intrigue we've all seen before? [71:45] It is said that Beauvoir later [71:46] published many of the letters between [71:48] her and Sartre, partly to prove, "I [71:50] have, I mean my position, my position [71:52] was primary." And I noticed something [71:55] else. [71:56] >> How much time and energy did a female [71:58] writer, a female intellectual at that [72:00] time, have to spend just to prove [72:02] herself? Any news or mention involving [72:05] Beauvoir always had to be appended with [72:07] "Sartre's lover." Whereas Sartre [72:09] wouldn't necessarily have to mention [72:11] Beauvoir. [72:12] >> Mhm. [72:13] >> And Beauvoir spent a great deal of [72:15] effort on these manuscripts and letters [72:17] , wanting to tell everyone that they [72:18] influenced each other, and that she [72:20] even influenced him, rather than him [72:22] being her teacher; she knew her own [72:23] achievements better. [72:25] >> So often you have to prove yourself. I [72:28] don't think male writers have this kind [72:30] of dilemma—having to spend time [72:31] proving yourself. I recently watched a [72:35] movie, "Young Woman and the Sea," about [72:37] the first woman to swim across the [72:38] English Channel. The first time she [72:41] went into the water to swim, she was [72:42] sabotaged by her male coach. He didn't [72:44] want her to succeed, so he tricked her. [72:46] When she found out, she said she would [72:48] report him. Another male coach told her [72:50] , "You are a woman. Before you succeed, [72:52] no one will believe a word you say."" [72:54] >> You must swim again. Only when you [72:56] succeed will people listen to anything [72:58] you have to say." [72:59] >> Watching it, I realized how much energy [73:01] a woman must expend to prove herself; [73:03] it reminded me of "Anatomy of a Fall." [73:05] >> Yeah. [73:06] >> I mean, look at their dynamic: both the [73:08] woman and the man are writers. But the [73:12] woman succeeded and became famous, [73:14] while the man couldn't write, which [73:15] caused him great pain. [73:18] >> Pain. [73:19] >> He felt burdened by household chores [73:21] and felt that the woman was too strong, [73:23] suppressing his own. Suppressing his [73:25] ideas and creativity. Right, it's hard [73:28] to tell, because when a couple talks, [73:30] ideas are often mutual. [73:34] >> If you reversed that dynamic—a couple [73:36] both writing, the man becoming a famous [73:38] author while the woman doesn't and ends [73:40] up doing more housework—I think most [73:42] people would consider that normal, and [73:44] the woman would likely think so too, [73:45] right? The reason this film is [73:49] discussed so much is largely because [73:50] those roles were flipped, right? [73:55] >> Yes, but then again, regarding "Anatomy [73:57] of a Fall," while feminism—speaking [73:59] for women and making them visible—is [74:01] certainly one perspective, I don't [74:03] think that was the film's main intent. [74:10] I feel the film is more about a " [74:12] Rashomon" within the private sphere of [74:14] a family; no one can truly know what [74:15] happens between a couple, not even the [74:17] people involved. [74:21] >> Hmm. [74:23] >> Nobody really knows, so we shouldn't [74:24] rush to judge; even Sartre wouldn't be [74:26] able to figure it out. [74:28] >> If they loved each other, it was [74:29] definitely real love, and if it was [74:31] toxic, it was definitely toxic. This... [74:33] >> As things are slowly revealed, even the [74:35] person involved starts to doubt [74:36] themselves, right? The protagonist [74:38] herself eventually begins to doubt [74:39] herself. [74:40] >> The only thing related to feminism, for [74:42] me, was hearing the term "misogynistic" [74:44] for the first time in court. Yeah, [74:46] because the music the man played was a [74:48] famous misogynistic song. [74:51] >> You mean to say there aren't many [74:53] writer couples? [74:55] >> I don't think many writer couples spend [74:57] their time constantly discussing [74:58] inspiration. I think it's very rare to [75:02] find a couple that is financially [75:04] compatible and also constantly [75:05] challenging each other intellectually. [75:08] >> So, writer couples don't talk about [75:09] their writing at home? I don't think [75:11] they do. I don't know, I have no idea [75:13] how they live, but I feel that if they [75:15] chatted about it every single day, I [75:17] don't think they'd write very well. " [75:19] >> You're writing more like me, I'm [75:20] writing more like you." [75:21] >> They’ll become fewer and fewer, right [75:23] ? [75:24] >> Yes, so that movie often reminds me not [75:27] to judge. Don't judge other people’s [75:31] family matters. Recently, that dating [75:33] show with Yang Zi and Huang Shengyi [75:35] caused such a stir, and everyone was [75:37] commenting on it. Oh my, I kept [75:40] thinking I wouldn't dare comment. I [75:44] don’t know what really happened [75:46] between them, so let’s get back to [75:47] the dynamics of relationships. [75:51] >> Let me go back to my guest, Liu [75:52] Xiaoyang. Her marital relationship is [75:55] excellent, but her model for a good [75:57] marriage isn't what we usually call... [75:59] ... [76:00] >> highly compatible, sharing the same [76:01] language, and being intellectually [76:03] synchronized. Her way of getting along [76:06] is that her husband has absolutely no [76:08] artistic temperament. [76:09] >> Right. [76:10] >> He doesn’t like the novels she reads. [76:11] Her husband’s biggest hobby is [76:13] playing cards. [76:14] >> Hmm. [76:14] >> Liu Xiaoyang doesn’t like playing [76:16] cards at all. " [76:17] >> Oh, I just love playing cards," he [76:19] would say. [76:20] >> But Liu Xiaoyang never thought there [76:22] was anything wrong with her husband [76:23] playing cards. Hmm. [76:24] >> Every day he would go out to play cards [76:26] with others, and she would, for example [76:28] , cook for him. [76:29] >> She kept the house in perfect order and [76:31] supported his card playing. [76:33] >> Then she would spend all day reading [76:34] and writing about "poetry and faraway [76:36] places," which her husband found [76:38] baffling. He would say: " [76:40] >> What’s the point of this? It’s not [76:42] practical at all." [76:44] >> He didn't understand it, but he would [76:45] be very happy to say, "I heard [76:47] somewhere is throwing away a bunch of [76:49] books, let's go pick them up." [76:51] >> Oh, that is really something. He would [76:53] carry a bag to pick up a pile of books [76:55] he knew nothing about, just to bring [76:57] them back for his wife to read. [76:59] >> So I think that this kind of situation [77:01] —no shared language, yet such [77:03] acceptance of differences......is what [77:05] exists between couples that I call love [77:07] . It's not just romance; that is [77:11] certainly love. [77:12] >> That must be love. [77:13] >> That must be love. What a wonderful [77:15] marital relationship. Do you mean that [77:17] people talk about having "a room of [77:19] one’s own"? You are saying the best [77:21] marriage is having one room for each [77:23] person. [77:23] >> One for cards, one for writing. But in [77:27] the book, that husband goes off on his [77:28] wife, and there’s a line that’s [77:30] very interesting. He said, at first, I [77:34] thought I had married the best wife in [77:36] the world. What kind of wife? The most [77:38] ordinary wife. She didn't need to be [77:40] especially pretty or particularly [77:42] capable; she didn't need to excel in [77:43] anything. [77:44] >> I was so happy she was so plain, but in [77:45] the end, when she suddenly started [77:47] reading, he discovered something and [77:48] said, "Oh..." because his wife also [77:50] liked to stay home and read books. [77:51] >> I just like reading; there was no sound [77:53] , and he said, "I suddenly realized [77:55] something." [77:56] >> He's very active in every way, but I [77:58] have never truly understood his mind. [78:00] >> Yeah. [78:01] >> I have no idea what he's thinking. Yeah [78:03] , [78:07] >> So you see, for these men with [78:08] traditional stereotypes, even if they [78:10] grudgingly accept that women are [78:12] independent beings with their own [78:13] thoughts and desires, they only accept [78:15] those who are highly educated, wealthy, [78:17] or exceptionally beautiful—in short, [78:19] women who stand out from the crowd— [78:21] who might have their own will and are " [78:23] difficult." I looked for someone not [78:29] particularly beautiful or rich, just an [78:31] ordinary woman, thinking she wouldn't [78:33] have a personal will and would be easy [78:35] to handle, but it turns out she’s [78:37] still difficult—she’s still a [78:38] person. [78:40] >> The is sue Regarding this year's TV [78:51] dramas, I've made an interesting [78:53] observation: there seem to be a lot of [78:55] "darkened" characters. Taiwan is [78:57] filming "The Queen of Villains," and [78:59] there are many fans. Sometimes we feel [79:01] that those "red" characters—like [79:03] Zhang Guimei—who are noble and filled [79:06] with faith, are very hard to film; she [79:08] is an exception, of course, but others [79:10] are quite rare. And so, when "red" [79:13] characters are hard to portray, [79:16] everyone turns to "black" ones; in the [79:18] absence of red heroism, we film black [79:20] abysses, using that opposite force to [79:23] draw out the profoundness and power of [79:25] the human psyche. It's actually like a [79:28] character like Richard III in [79:30] Shakespeare's plays. Richard III is [79:34] such a terrifying character, killing [79:36] even a child without blinking, yet in [79:38] him, we still see the depth of life—a [79:41] depth that can actually propel you [79:43] forward. [79:46] >> I feel that dark elements present the [79:48] existence of light from another angle [79:50] and in a different way. [79:52] >> It actually triggers a longing for [79:54] light, just like in*Lady Vengeance*. [79:56] >> She eventually becomes a ruthless [79:58] goddess of revenge, cruel to the bone. [80:00] >> Is it like the person in*The Glory*? [80:04] >> But in the end, she tells her daughter [80:06] to live like snow—to be pure—and [80:07] they part ways in the heavy snow. Yeah, [80:12] >> And holding a snow-white cake. [80:15] >> Parting ways, living cleanly like snow. [80:20] >> Perhaps humans actually harbor an [80:21] inherent yearning for the light, for [80:23] things that are pure and white. [80:26] >> It must be, take Han Kang’s novels [80:28] for example. You say Han Kang is [80:35] already so disgusted with the human [80:36] world that she thinks, "I want to be a [80:38] plant, a potted flower is fine, I want [80:40] to be a tree," but doesn't she always [80:42] turn back toward those voices filled [80:44] with love and pain, toward the light [80:46] and places with warmth? The most [80:56] interesting thing I've seen recently [80:57] that's similar to this is that memoir [80:59] by the actor—was it Al Pacino? [81:04] >> Yes, his autobiography. In it, he talks [81:06] about filming a movie based on a true [81:08] story about an Italian police officer [81:10] who wouldn't take bribes. Just imagine, [81:13] in that place full of gangsters and [81:15] such, he kept refusing, getting hunted [81:16] down, and going through all these [81:18] things, and he just said. [81:20] >> You really didn't take their money? Why [81:21] wouldn't you take their money? Do you [81:23] know what the man said? He said, "If I [81:25] had taken the money, what face would I [81:27] have to face Beethoven the next time I [81:29] listen to his music?" [81:30] >> Exactly. This shows that when we look [81:34] at a work, we must see its complexity. [81:38] Every issue is complex; it’s never [81:40] just about good men vs. bad women, or [81:42] rich people being good and poor people [81:44] being bad, or vice versa—it's never [81:46] that simple. We cannot view works in [81:50] such a one-dimensional way. We must [81:53] ensure we see their complexity as much [81:55] as possible, and think as deeply as we [81:57] can. Yeah.