李诞窦文涛评自媒体工业化内卷 称商业叙事正重构大众审美

李诞窦文涛评自媒体工业化内卷 称商业叙事正重构大众审美 平台算法与流量变现将内容生产彻底降维为数字化开店，而工业化叙事与成王败寇逻辑反向主导了公众的价值与美学判断。 对谈首先梳理了从传统垄断媒体到算法自媒体时代的门槛变迁，剖析了短视频“起号”热潮背后的工业化逻辑以及社交媒体对年轻一代造成的真实心理焦虑。随后，嘉宾们探讨了精神空虚与“身心灵”消费乱象的滋生机制，并坦诚分享了面对身体衰老、被“时代列车”淘汰的职业恐慌与雄心争议。后半程则转向文化与美学思辨，通过对《谿山行旅图》真伪、达·芬奇手艺与当代艺术讲解绑架的剖析，探讨了审美究竟是直觉能量还是文化规训，并界定了艺术创造与大众消费的边界。 复制中国模式面临三大客观壁垒：超大人口规模、吸纳精英的强势体制与数千年同质化文明底色；这避免了社会根本性撕裂，但也直接造就了各行业极端的同质化竞争与内卷。 (0:00) 自媒体工业化重塑零售与传播体系，创作者通过起号、垂类选品与供应链直连打破了传统广告分销中介，而线下商场则转型依靠泡泡玛特式的沉浸体验聚集客流。 (9:30) 青年心理健康危机并非矫情呻吟，急诊与ICU自残收治数据证实其与智能手机、社交网络爆发严格正相关；同时人均GDP跨过5至6万美元门槛后幸福感便与收入脱钩，催生了野蛮生长的“身心灵”精神收割产业。 (11:35) 艺术与美学存在本质区隔：普通观众以消费者心态欣赏王羲之或范宽名作的美感，而真正从事创作的艺术家必须跳出对前人经典的被动膜拜，将艺术作为探索突破的形式手艺。 (50:19)

窦文涛、李诞等嘉宾围绕技术跃迁与时代更迭展开探讨，指出媒体门槛消除与商业化运营加剧了全社会的内卷与精神焦虑，并进一步反思了现代进化论叙事下代际更替的残酷性以及审美体验背后的文化规训机制。 媒介门槛消解与自媒体的工业化内卷 (0:00) 对话指出，中国模式难以复制源于庞大人口、精英吸纳体制与同质化文化底色，但也导致各行业同质化竞争严重。过去传统电视台垄断资源，创作者享受拓荒期的人口红利；如今智能手机消除了表达门槛，数亿人将自媒体视作低成本创业途径。然而，言论泛滥引发了言论贬值，新入局者不再因纯粹表达欲望聚集，而是以“起号”、“选赛道”等精密商业逻辑切入，通过直播电商绕开传统零售中介直接触达消费者。李诞提出依靠算法的精准分发，专注自身且拒绝盲目攀比是缓解竞争焦虑的个人途径，但这种豁达心态难以普及。 技术焦虑、心理危机与身心灵产业乱象 随着智能手机和社交媒体自1998至1999年前后在全球普及，青少年的心理危机通过急诊室自残数据得到了临床实证，并非单纯的无病呻吟。人类对新技术的恐慌具有循环性，从昔日的“电视儿童”延续到如今对AI与深脑刺激技术的疑虑。宏观数据显示，人均GDP在低水平时与幸福感呈正相关，但超过5万至6万美元后二者便会脱钩；中国当前处于1.2万至1.5万美元区间，物质提升仍能改善生活感受。由于精神空虚属于人类未变的“出厂设置”，灰色“身心灵”机构借机通过断食营和心理控制收割脆弱群体，李诞警示其主要危害在于导致受害者疏远家庭与社会关系。 进化论叙事下的代际更替与衰老焦虑 (29:58) 面对被时代列车抛弃的恐惧，鲁豫表示因不安已成常态故能坦然处之，窦文涛则坦言衰老带来的体能滑坡与储蓄不足引发了实际生存焦虑。关于衰老，席间引述贾先生的观点认为，真正的变老不是生理退化，而是放弃雄心走向“躺平”。许子东从思想史角度剖析，中国传统历史观原属三十年河东河西的循环模式并尊崇先贤，但自晚清和五四运动后转向线性进化论，确立了“新”、“前卫”与“年轻”的绝对价值，导致旧事物被制度性贬低与淘汰，代际传承因此异化为年轻一代对前代权威的残酷掘墓与彻底置换。 成王败寇叙事与审美感知的本质博弈 (40:10) 针对美学评价，嘉宾指出审美往往被后设的商业故事所绑架，例如初代iPhone与诺基亚N75的设计优劣评价很大程度被随后的商业成败所逆转。当代艺术过度依赖展签与专家导览，折射出艺术家在直接视觉传达上的缺陷。在审美来源上，席间产生分歧：一方认为面对金字塔或范宽《谿山行旅图》等巨物时产生的震撼是纯粹的神经与物理共鸣；另一方则坚持美感脱离不了同一文化共同体的隐秘规训与价值正当化。同时，嘉宾区分了普通观众与创作者的视角，认为大众消费艺术追求纯粹的美感，而真正的创作者如同科学家探索未知，艺术的表现虽具有美，但创新的本质绝不仅是为了追求美。 本场对话揭示了算法商业与进化论叙事对当代人心理与代际关系的深层挤压，但对于个体如何在不依赖虚假精神慰藉的情况下抵抗系统性焦虑，以及艺术审美能否彻底剥离文化叙事与作者光环，席间并未达成确定结论。

[0:00] 王蒙: 言论自由是好的，但你必须意识到，言论自由同时也意味着言论的贬值。 [5:36] 窦文涛: 如果每一条路都用来赛跑，那未免太可悲了。 [8:24] 李诞: 大家不叫发段子了，不叫交朋友了，叫‘起号’，叫‘选赛道’。 [29:58] 贾先生: The moment you lie flat, you are old, that's what I think. [23:36] 陈鲁豫: Since unease is my norm, I don't feel uneasy about it. [2:40] 李诞: 攀比是所有焦虑的来源 [33:17] 窦文涛: I decided a long time ago that I would keep going, try to stay on this 'train of the times' as long as possible, and adapt by making minor adjustments without completely compromising who I am.

[0:00] Can the China model actually be [0:01] replicated? He said there are three [0:04] conditions that make it difficult for [0:06] others to be like China. One is the [0:08] extremely large population. [0:10] >> It's huge. [0:11] >> The government is very powerful. [0:12] >> It incorporates society's elites. [0:14] >> Mm. [0:15] >> Right, this is a rather unique aspect. [0:17] >> In China, this has been the case since [0:19] ancient times through the imperial exam [0:21] system. [0:21] >> Yes. [0:22] >> But other countries haven't been like [0:24] this since ancient times. Another one [0:26] is a continuous culture spanning [0:27] thousands of years. [0:28] >> Meaning, if you have a large population [0:30] , it's also homogenized. [0:32] >> Mm. [0:32] >> This is very important, otherwise, with [0:34] so many people, wouldn't there be [0:35] conflict? [0:36] >> So this also makes our industry very [0:38] homogenized. Don't you think it's too [0:40] homogenized? As a heavyweight, standing [0:42] at the height of the industry, you... [0:44] >> I wouldn't dare stand there. No, I mean [0:45] , why do you think it's so competitive? [0:47] >> Mm. [0:48] >> I have a feeling now that I didn't [0:50] understand before. [0:51] >> In the past, people of my generation [0:54] felt that copying others was shameful. [0:57] Chinese Zen Buddhism talks about having [0:59] your own spirit, not following the path [1:01] of the Buddha. [1:03] >> It means I create my own path. Later, [1:06] they said, "It's easy for you to say," [1:08] that you old folks just enjoyed the [1:10] so-called "demographic dividend." Later [1:13] , I reflected on what that dividend [1:16] really was: when we created a show, [1:18] there was no one ahead of us. [1:20] >> Mm. [1:21] >> Everything we did was a first. [1:23] >> Right. [1:23] >> We thought we were awesome, but it [1:25] wasn't that we were awesome; it was [1:26] just that we had no competitors. [1:28] >> Mm. [1:28] >> Right. [1:29] >> Nowadays, no matter what move you make, [1:31] you look behind you and see a dozen [1:33] people catching up. [1:34] >> Mm. I think one reason why there were [1:38] no competitors in your era was that [1:40] others had no way to do it, because TV [1:42] resources were monopolized. Not just [1:47] anyone could film something and put it [1:49] on TV. In that sense, there were no [1:52] competitors, not because there was a [1:54] lack of ability. [1:55] >> Right. [1:56] >> Today, anyone with a smartphone [1:58] featuring a front-facing camera...... [2:00] can get on Douyin. In that sense. This [2:03] has given everyone an opportunity, [2:05] because nobody watches TV anymore. [2:07] >> It’s like how publishing a book used [2:09] to be a privilege and an honor. Now, [2:12] everyone can publish. [2:14] >> I don't even publish; I just start a [2:16] public account, write, and charge for [2:18] it directly. Because there are too many [2:20] capable people in China, and now that [2:22] everyone has a channel, it’s bound to [2:24] be hard to do. I remember Mr. Wang Meng [2:26] once said something I found quite wise. [2:30] He said that freedom of speech is good, [2:32] but you must realize that freedom of [2:34] speech also means the devaluation of [2:36] speech. Today, it's all just been [2:38] drowned out. I'm curious, do you feel [2:40] any pressure from competition? [2:42] >> Basically none. [2:43] >> Yeah, actually you don't. No. [2:46] >> I think it has to do with personality, [2:48] because I’m actually quite [2:49] introverted. Ah, [2:52] >> So I just focus on my own thing. I [2:55] don't even watch shows from others in [2:57] the same field. [2:59] >> I feel annoyed when I watch them. [3:00] >> Right? Maybe I’d feel pressured, like [3:03] they’re doing so well, is there any [3:04] way for me to survive? But I choose to [3:06] ... [3:07] >> No, I just stick to doing my own thing, [3:09] and that's fine. Right, my feeling is, [3:12] uh, whether it's these algorithms or [3:15] self-media. The nature of our work is [3:19] just about finding each other, that's [3:21] it. [3:22] >> Finding each other. [3:23] >> It means you and your audience finding [3:25] each other. [3:26] >> Hey, that’s the ability I was talking [3:27] about earlier. [3:28] >> I’m very optimistic. You will [3:30] definitely find them; it’s actually [3:31] hard not to find them because of these [3:33] recommendations. [3:33] >> There are always people who resonate [3:35] with you. The precision of the [3:37] recommendations makes it easy to find [3:39] them; conversely, if there were no [3:41] precision...Say there’s a creator [3:43] with 100 million followers and you [3:44] might have only 1 million, but you two [3:46] don't really compete with each other. [3:51] He...of course, from another [3:53] perspective, a person's time spent [3:54] there can't be spent here, but as long [3:56] as you find the group willing to spend [3:58] time on you, your life can be quite [4:00] wonderful. And I think that's exactly [4:05] what yours is, right? With your " [4:08] Yuanzhou School," I believe your [4:10] audience is very stable. I care about [4:13] the young people. As he said, everyone [4:15] should tend their own garden. I [4:17] remember you wrote something about [4:19] comparison, right? [4:20] >> About comparison being the source of [4:22] all anxiety? [4:24] >> Yeah, it’s always been that way, so [4:26] you have to be a bit more open-minded. [4:29] >> If you don't compare. [4:32] >> Right, you're doing much better than [4:33] when you were in Inner Mongolia, aren't [4:35] you? [4:38] >> Setting the standard for comparison— [4:40] yeah, that’s where the joy is. [4:43] >> If you ask me, when I reflect on things [4:45] , I often think about how lucky I am to [4:47] live the life I have today, and I feel [4:49] very happy. [4:51] >> So that’s the antidote. If everyone [4:54] could think like that, wouldn't it be [4:55] great? But the problem is human nature; [4:58] it’s not really that compliant. [5:01] >> So maybe it’s a serious illness? You [5:03] think his psychological experience [5:05] isn't really that applicable to [5:06] everyone, right? [5:08] >> Few, it’s hard to promote anyway. [5:10] >> And often, for example, when I try to [5:12] persuade my friends, even just trying [5:14] to comfort them leaves me with a huge [5:16] sense of frustration. [5:17] >> Yeah. [5:17] >> It’s like what you just said, those [5:19] people who get depressed after just a [5:21] couple of insults online. [5:22] >> You have to persuade them so often. [5:24] >> I can't even get through to them; they [5:25] just won't listen. [5:28] >> Because your experience can't be [5:29] replicated. They won't listen, so I [5:32] just say, "Fine." Last time, I went to [5:36] Shanghai to help with a promotional [5:38] event for Jiang Wen's film, and I [5:39] witnessed someone who fit your [5:41] description perfectly. Mm, we used to [5:44] think audiences were passive—like, if [5:47] everyone likes Li Dan, they’re just [5:49] happy to see him. That’s not the case [5:51] now; while they’re chasing you, [5:53] they’re also self-presenting, [5:54] self-expressing, or even acting as [5:56] their own media. They hold up their [5:59] phone, with the camera facing [6:00] themselves, while I'm in front holding [6:02] a microphone—it really feels like a [6:04] symbol. They'll say, "Teacher, I’ve [6:06] always admired you." But actually, [6:08] they’re livestreaming. [6:09] >> They’re giving a speech; their [6:10] questions are honestly longer than the [6:12] guest's answers. [6:13] >> You worry they might be nervous, but [6:15] they’re actually desperate to perform [6:17] in front of people. [6:18] >> Right. [6:18] >> Mm. [6:19] >> Are you familiar with this type? This [6:21] type? [6:21] >> There are too many of them. That’s [6:23] often the case, but I’m saying this [6:25] group of people must have a certain [6:27] ratio. The ones we see are the bold [6:31] ones, the ones who can put on a show; [6:33] there are still plenty of shy people [6:35] you just never get to see. [6:37] >> If there weren't so many shy people, [6:39] there wouldn't be so many viewers. [6:41] >> Just because someone holds a phone [6:42] everywhere doesn't mean they're [6:44] actually suited for this. Listening to [6:46] you, I feel like they can't really pull [6:48] this off either, right? [6:50] >> Regarding self-media, I saw data [6:52] suggesting the number of people doing [6:54] this work has reached the hundreds of [6:55] millions, right? [6:57] >> There must be. Actually. [7:00] >> And the competition is incredibly [7:01] fierce, too. But it’s still a pretty [7:06] good option; I think it’s low-cost [7:08] entrepreneurship. [7:11] >> Is it a way to make a living? [7:12] >> You just open TikTok, and your audience [7:15] is 1.4 billion people. If you do just [7:17] one little thing well, you have a [7:19] chance. There are also plenty of role [7:21] models to inspire them—people tell [7:23] them, "Look at so-and-so, one thing [7:25] they posted went viral overnight," and [7:28] so on. [7:28] >> This is more appealing than grinding [7:30] through university to get a degree. [7:32] >> You keep saying it's too stimulating. [7:34] >> The biggest delusion. [7:35] >> The temptation that your life could [7:37] change in a single day is just too [7:39] stimulating, so... " [7:40] >> Kings and nobles, are they born to be [7:41] better?" [7:41] >> So many people rush in, I can totally [7:43] understand that, just think about it. [7:45] >> It really happens overnight. [7:46] >> It’s just, it’s just so [7:47] self-centered. Once is enough. [7:49] >> Oh my god. [7:50] >> And the rules of the game are chaotic, [7:52] everyone chases hot trends, you [7:54] >> never know what will go viral, and [7:56] right now this track, the cake in this [7:58] track is just huge, anyone can come [7:59] take a bite. [8:00] >> Exactly, you know I was saying just [8:02] yesterday, I discovered this new word [8:04] this year, "track," how has everything [8:07] become a "track"? I said if every road [8:09] is meant for racing, that’s just too [8:11] tragic. [8:12] >> Chinese culture has always had this [8:13] competitive nature. Tracks, building a [8:16] persona, there’s a whole process for [8:18] this, a whole system, and many people [8:21] make a living selling these courses. [8:24] >> Is Li Dan just good at switching tracks [8:26] ? Right. [8:28] >> He adapted well. [8:32] >> I was talking on a podcast earlier, [8:34] I’m an original-generation influencer [8:35] , from the first wave of mobile [8:37] influencers; back then we didn’t even [8:39] have this concept, because there was no [8:41] MCN back then and [8:45] >> no such big business. [8:46] >> There wasn’t this industry, and " [8:48] influencer" wasn’t a meal ticket. [8:50] >> Hmm. [8:51] >> So back then we relied entirely on [8:53] instinct, the desire to create, and the [8:55] urge to make friends, posting jokes and [8:57] chatting with people online. But look, [9:01] after our first generation ended, it [9:03] wasn't like that anymore. People don't [9:06] call it posting jokes anymore, they [9:08] don't call it making friends; they call [9:09] it "starting an account." Oh, you teach [9:11] me, I have to use these terms to grow [9:13] the traffic for this account. [9:15] >> In terms of terminology, from the very [9:18] first day, it’s a very serious [9:20] business endeavor. It’s not about "I [9:22] want to make friends" or "I want to [9:24] express myself." Hmm. [9:25] >> It has a very sound operational logic, [9:27] saying "I need to start an account, I [9:29] need to pick a track." Once picked. [9:30] >> It's basically saying I'm opening a [9:32] shop, it’s like that. [9:33] >> It’s entrepreneurship, essentially [9:34] starting a business; I start an account [9:36] , pick a track, build a persona, and [9:38] maintain an update frequency. It’s [9:39] just product. [9:40] >> How many posts a day, and this and that [9:43] ; when you use this logic to run a [9:45] social account, it’s a business. [9:48] >> From an economic perspective. It’s [9:52] about creating the fastest line of [9:54] connection between the manufacturer and [9:55] the user. [9:59] >> Cutting out the original retail stores [10:01] and operations. [10:02] >> Isn't Douyin just the store? Besides, [10:05] the stuff you make, the traffic, all of [10:07] that requires operation. But it's [10:11] different from the traditional [10:12] department store format, yet all the [10:14] core elements are still there. [10:17] >> It's just the channels that are [10:18] different. [10:19] >> The channels are different, but they [10:21] still exist. [10:22] >> Can this situation last? [10:24] >> It's been a long time already. Why [10:26] couldn't it last? [10:27] >> Take advertising in the past, for [10:29] example. I produce something. I want to [10:35] advertise, I produce a school bag, and [10:37] I pay the newspaper to sell it, write [10:40] articles, get copy, and so on. Now, you [10:45] just go live yourself. The manufacturer [10:49] sends the bag directly to you; the [10:51] newspaper is no longer involved. [10:54] >> Traditional models don't work anymore; [10:56] everything is now this current model. [10:58] >> The traditional era has passed. But [11:00] business has just transformed into [11:02] something else, yes. [11:04] >> This is a bit sad; I'm someone who [11:06] actually likes shopping in stores. New [11:10] malls are still opening every year, [11:12] they just have different ways to play. [11:15] If you want to stroll, it's still [11:17] lively. I often walk around; I love [11:19] shopping in malls too. [11:22] >> But most people buy things online now. [11:23] >> Well, now they've started focusing on [11:25] experiences, providing all kinds of new [11:28] experiences. Like Pop Mart, which we [11:30] mentioned earlier, they do the offline [11:32] side very well. [11:33] >> Right. [11:33] >> The kind where you have to wait in line [11:35] . [11:35] >> Uh, you see, he is a special case. Like [11:39] we used to say, "unintentionally [11:41] creating a success." I didn't plan it. [11:44] >> I didn't calculate it. [11:46] >> But it just turned out well. [11:47] >> That's just what he's telling you now. [11:49] >> I've never been sure if he's being real [11:51] or not. What do you think? He just [11:53] plays around, writes whatever he wants, [11:55] maintaining that early influencer vibe, [11:57] yet how does he always get it right? [12:00] Actually, there are many times he gets [12:02] it wrong, but you don't see those. [12:04] >> He is quite optimistic; he doesn't like [12:07] to talk about setbacks. [12:09] >> And things you fail at, nobody really [12:11] sees. [12:12] >> Some of it has to do with his industry; [12:14] it's supposed to be funny. Why does [12:17] this person become famous talking about [12:19] their own life? While nobody knows the [12:21] other person at all. Solving worries— [12:23] why is it that this person can solve [12:25] them? I feel like these "worries" were [12:27] never really problems to begin with. Of [12:30] course, I haven't experienced ancient [12:32] times, but I think, as you said, [12:34] because of social media, how did it [12:36] become such a noticed phenomenon? To [12:39] the point where I suspect it might be a [12:42] bit manufactured, not so...organic. [12:45] >> No, or rather, is life ever truly happy [12:47] ? [12:48] >> Look, let me tell you about an American [12:50] study, because you asked if these [12:52] people are anxious or depressed. The [12:54] earliest research method was simply [12:56] asking the person. They found that [12:58] young people were getting more and more [13:01] depressed, but many adults—scientists [13:03] didn't believe it—were like, "Is this [13:05] just..."... [13:06] >> you just making it up, forcing yourself [13:08] to sound sorrowful for no reason? Well, [13:12] they immediately countered that by [13:14] looking at how many young people were [13:16] ending up in the ICU or the hospital [13:18] due to self-harm. The US has this data: [13:22] young people engaging in [13:23] self-destructive behaviors that land [13:25] them in the hospital. You can't just " [13:27] ask" your way out of that, right? [13:29] It’s the same phenomenon, the same [13:31] era, the same group of people; this is [13:33] also what the data indicates. So, this [13:35] isn't entirely fictional; it’s real, [13:38] physical harm. It’s just that [13:40] self-harm is a more extreme form, but [13:42] anxiety is very, very widespread—it's [13:45] real, they aren't faking it. [13:47] >> It’s all the fault of social media. [13:51] >> It’s a very clear trend globally, [13:53] though it varies slightly by country [13:55] because the time people started using [13:57] smartphones differs. But children, [14:02] especially girls by age 13 or 14, are [14:05] starting to use social media before 15. [14:08] This trend, looking at birth years, [14:11] roughly started after '98 or '99. This [14:16] was when Facebook rose, coinciding with [14:18] China’s economic take-off, so it had [14:20] a huge impact on the Chinese lifestyle. [14:24] >> The changes and influences were also [14:26] significant, weren't they? [14:28] >> Broadly speaking, our culture is shaped [14:30] by AI. [14:33] >> It is a crystallization of culture, but [14:35] we just don't trust these dominating... [14:37] um...... [14:39] >> programs. We can't control them, [14:42] especially when the world, as we judge [14:44] it from a long-term perspective, seems [14:46] to be heading in a not-so-correct [14:48] direction. We are even more afraid of [14:52] these things. [14:53] >> Yeah. [14:54] >> But if it's not AI, but a person, [14:56] wouldn't they also be hypnotized by a [14:58] certain ideology? [14:59] >> Yes, of course, humans can also be [15:01] hypnotized, but... [15:03] >> Of course, the premise is that besides [15:05] ideology and thought, there is also [15:07] kinship and affection. You wouldn't [15:10] just hand your child over to a random [15:12] stranger. I think affection is the [15:15] guiding force here. It’s not that [15:19] you’re smarter or more objective than [15:21] AI, but that love is real. It also [15:24] fundamentally shakes our view of [15:26] humanity. The reason Li Dan is Li Dan [15:29] —his joys, sorrows, and emotions [15:31] today—is identified by many as being [15:34] formed by his childhood experiences and [15:36] character. He couldn't be a machine [15:39] output the same as him. [15:41] >> Yeah. [15:44] >> If such a machine existed, and you gave [15:46] it to your child at two or three years [15:48] old, perhaps I'm just being overly [15:50] anxious. Yeah, it's just due to the [15:55] limitations of our era. Actually, there [15:58] was a similar worry back then; didn't [15:59] we have the term "television child"? [16:02] >> It was quite critical, people would say [16:04] , how could this be? Growing up [16:06] watching TV shows and news all day, is [16:09] this child even salvageable? [16:11] >> Right. [16:11] >> Won't this child be ruined in the [16:13] future? Won't their brain be broken? [16:16] >> We faced that kind of criticism when we [16:18] were kids; my parents would always tell [16:20] me to watch less TV. [16:21] >> To this day, I still don't understand [16:23] the reason for watching less TV; there [16:24] was no reason, they just felt you [16:26] shouldn't. That the same amount of time [16:28] spent reading would be better than [16:30] watching. [16:30] >> It’s just a kind of fear, I think [16:32] deep down it's a fear of new things. [16:35] Television and AI are both like that. [16:38] From television children, mobile [16:40] children, internet children, to AI. [16:43] What are we to do? AI will play another [16:46] role in the future. It will be able to [16:48] regulate the intensity of human senses. [16:54] I always feel that one day there will [16:56] be such a method where, when we are [16:58] connected to this machine, for example, [17:00] if I'm happy, I can turn up my [17:01] excitement level, or if I'm going [17:03] through a painful period, I can turn it [17:05] down. This technology already exists, [17:10] it’s just not for normal, everyday [17:12] people. [17:13] >> It’s for patients; friends with [17:14] depression can get great relief from it [17:16] . [17:17] >> But in reality, the result is the same [17:19] as medication. [17:22] >> When the patient is connected to these [17:24] neural nerves, they might be very [17:25] depressed, but when they press a button [17:27] , they suddenly feel happy. But if they [17:33] keep pressing it, the doctor who [17:34] installed it has to tell them they [17:36] can't do that constantly, as the effect [17:38] gradually diminishes, just like [17:39] antidepressant medication. [17:42] >> So, you have to be under a doctor's [17:44] control. I think humanity has a [17:47] specific problem, which is that we are [17:49] never satisfied. You see, all happiness [17:52] comes from, at least they say, having [17:55] enough, right? But not having enough [17:58] means you have nothing—not in [18:00] technology, not in your abilities, not [18:02] in your weapons. [18:03] >> Because there is competition; if you [18:05] have enough, others will be better than [18:07] you, and you'll be finished immediately [18:08] . [18:10] >> There’s a statistic that says for [18:12] countries with a GDP per capita between [18:14] a certain range, there’s a measurable [18:16] level of happiness. It means that the [18:20] amount of money one has is indeed [18:22] positively correlated with their level [18:24] of happiness. But once your per capita [18:28] GDP exceeds 50,000 or 60,000 dollars, [18:30] this correlation weakens significantly. [18:33] >> What is China's per capita GDP now? [18:35] >> Uh, 1.5, 20,000, 1...depends on how you [18:38] calculate it, there are different [18:40] methods. [18:41] >> So there is still room for growth; they [18:43] ask people worldwide, first, if they [18:45] are happy, and second, how they [18:47] perceive their life and evaluate their [18:49] living standards. So, Northern [18:52] Europeans are definitely higher than [18:55] Africans, right? [18:56] >> But statistically, there is this [18:58] positive correlation. Whether it's a [18:59] causal relationship is hard to say, [19:01] isn't it? [19:02] >> But do you think this can be [19:03] industrialized? [19:04] >> Which, which aspect industrialized? [19:06] >> Just these kinds of emotions. [19:07] >> Oh. [19:08] >> There are already many such industries, [19:10] right? I feel like even the public [19:11] security bureau warns about them, for [19:13] instance, warning middle-aged women to [19:15] be careful of "mind-body-spirit" [19:16] organizations. [19:17] >> It's a major part of my live streams, I [19:19] have to mention it in every broadcast. [19:21] >> I tell everyone to be extra careful [19:23] because this industry is huge. [19:25] >> Huge. [19:25] >> This "mind-body-spirit" industry is [19:27] vast, very grey—it's not just a grey [19:29] industry. [19:29] >> Mind-body-spirit, yeah. Have you seen " [19:32] The Pig, the Snake and the Pigeon"? [19:34] >> It's terrifying. [19:36] >> Yeah, I’ve probably offended quite a [19:38] few people because I talk about this [19:40] often in my streams, especially when [19:42] people message me saying they’ve [19:43] joined some camp or another. Like not [19:46] eating for seven days, running in [19:48] circles with people; I’m like, can [19:50] you...haven't we been receiving [19:51] anti-cult education since we were kids? [19:54] Don't you watch the propaganda? Was I [19:55] the only one watching it when I was a [19:57] kid? [19:58] >> But why do you think people are so [20:00] easily taken in, especially those with [20:02] a certain level of education, or even [20:04] financial means? That stuff requires [20:07] resources. [20:08] >> People without resources aren't usually [20:10] the target. [20:13] >> I think there has always been this void [20:15] in the human heart, from traditional [20:16] times to the modern day. Modern people [20:20] have this constant gap that needs [20:22] something to fill it. [20:24] >> Sometimes this "something" is, as you [20:26] just said, when God is dead, people [20:28] look for new gods. The god of money, [20:32] work, or love; they say, "Let love fill [20:35] my emptiness so I can find comfort and [20:37] patch this hole in my heart." [20:41] >> He put it very plainly. I feel this is [20:43] just a part of human nature. Take art [20:47] and literature, for example; they [20:49] basically originated from these [20:50] spiritual practices. It's actually [20:53] about mind, body, and spirit—it's a [20:56] spiritual need. You see, from the [20:59] Paleolithic to the Neolithic eras, it [21:01] has been such a significant part of our [21:03] history. It was even more so in ancient [21:05] times—building temples, tombs, and [21:08] pyramids—it was all about these [21:10] things. [21:11] >> It’s our default factory setting. [21:13] >> Right? [21:14] >> You feel like you have to pin your [21:15] faith on something to feel secure. [21:18] >> Since we have this factory setting, [21:20] there is a demand for such services. [21:23] >> Exactly. [21:24] >> Psychiatrists serve the same purpose. [21:26] My advice to everyone is always: there [21:28] are free options available, aren’t [21:30] the temples open? Why not just go there [21:32] and pray? After you pay your respects [21:33] and make a small donation, you just [21:35] leave. Why go further? Because these [21:37] deep-seated organizations sometimes [21:39] engage in truly excessive behaviors. [21:40] >> Yes. [21:41] >> I am very worried about people getting [21:43] trapped in these circles. [21:44] >> It's not just about them swindling your [21:46] money—if it were just spending, that [21:48] would be fine, you could just treat it [21:49] as a donation. They might completely [21:52] and profoundly alter your life, like [21:54] making you abandon your family, and [21:56] then drag all your friends into the [21:58] organization. That is just too much; I [22:01] think it causes too much damage to [22:03] one's life. [22:05] >> So, Li Dan is really spreading positive [22:07] energy now, and I think he has pointed [22:09] out an important future industry trend. [22:11] From ancient times to the present, [22:13] people have always had this spiritual [22:15] need. If you don't want religion, you [22:17] need something else. I have some [22:19] celebrity friends who I think have some [22:21] kind of "guru" or something, and when [22:23] we're out eating, they might say let's [22:25] have a cigarette. But then they [22:27] hesitate—their guru told them to quit [22:29] , so they call on their phone and ask, [22:31] "Guru, can I smoke just one today?" [22:33] >> They have to ask about everything. [22:34] >> I've also seen this. [22:36] >> They bring along an older man, claiming [22:38] he is their guru. [22:39] >> The communication pattern is "ask about [22:41] everything." They have to ask about [22:42] every single little thing; that is [22:44] already a bit terrifying. [22:45] >> I told them, he’s actually just your [22:47] therapist. There has always been this [22:51] saying abroad that therapists are, in a [22:53] way, substitutes for pastors. What the [22:57] West calls the "collective unconscious" [22:59] also shows some insight into human [23:01] nature. [23:02] >> Look, we need to rely on ourselves, but [23:04] when we can't manage, we look for [23:06] someone to provide that positive energy [23:09] . [23:09] >> Exactly. [23:10] >> Right? Why shouldn't we have this [23:12] psychological need? You have a need for [23:14] faith or something, so why don't we use [23:17] the modern, correct, so-called "true, [23:19] good, and beautiful"? [23:20] >> Yes. [23:21] >> Right. But we also provide this kind of [23:23] beauty. There is a sense here that the [23:27] train of this era has already left our [23:28] parents behind. And we will soon be, or [23:32] have already been, by the train of this [23:34] era, or have already been by the train [23:36] of this era, [23:37] >> Sooner or later. [23:38] >> No. [23:39] >> When you say "sooner or later," don't [23:41] you feel uneasy? [23:43] >> Not at all. [23:43] >> She won't. [23:44] >> Because sooner or later... [23:45] >> I don't believe it, she won't. Really, [23:47] really, why? [23:48] >> Are you not uneasy? [23:49] >> Uneasy? I am a person who is uneasy [23:52] every single moment. I think for me, [23:55] unease is the norm. Do you guys feel [23:57] that? Since unease is my norm, I don't [23:59] feel uneasy about it. [24:02] >> I don't think she needs to be uneasy [24:03] either, because what she does, what's [24:05] it called, "A Date with Luyu," [24:08] >> has interviewed all kinds of people. [24:11] >> No one else's similar program has [24:13] surpassed her interview show. In an era [24:17] like this, in an era of such huge [24:19] changes in China, you do a show, that's [24:21] your job, and if you can do it better [24:23] than your peers, what's there to regret [24:25] ? [24:27] >> Who wouldn't get old? Even the greatest [24:29] people will get old. You can just do [24:32] your own thing well. What is an ideal [24:34] society? It's where everyone can [24:36] fulfill their greatest potential. That [24:38] is an ideal society. But a person can [24:40] only do that for so long, you can't be [24:42] like that forever. Yes, but I [24:44] understand Wentao's question. It's that [24:49] if you have always been in the [24:50] spotlight, when that spotlight moves [24:52] from you to someone else and you are [24:53] left in the darkness, deep down you [24:55] will still have some fear and a longing [24:56] to return to that place. But I think a [25:01] good thing about us hosts is that we [25:03] aren't celebrities in the true sense. [25:05] >> Right. [25:07] >> So our mindset has been different from [25:09] the very beginning. Hmm. [25:11] >> There must be some differences, though. [25:13] I'm an outsider, but for example, hosts [25:15] are also categorized into big names and [25:18] medium names. Who you can book to [25:20] accept your interview, [25:22] >> so there will still be that change, [25:23] right? "Hey, they used to take the [25:26] initiative to call and ask, 'Luyu, will [25:28] you interview me?' and now I've asked [25:31] three times and they won't come." I'm [25:33] just giving an example. [25:35] >> Will that affect your mood? [25:36] >> Is there that kind of disparity? If it [25:38] were Luo La, maybe, but I haven't had [25:40] that yet. [25:40] >> That starts from the very beginning. [25:42] >> At the beginning, I remember the most [25:44] interesting thing was we booked someone [25:46] —I can't say who it was—a celebrity [25:47] . And then we said, "Should we [25:49] interview them or not?" We invited him [25:50] more than once, many years ago, and he [25:52] never came. The funniest time, his [25:55] reply was, "Oh, I watched your show; [25:57] you interview the common folk, and [25:59] I’d rather not join." I was just... [26:02] stunned. We were in a meeting, and [26:05] someone asked, "Did we invite so-and-so [26:07] ?""Did you ask him?""He won't come."" [26:10] Why not?""He said your show is for the [26:12] common folk, so he won't participate." [26:14] >> You should have changed the name of [26:15] your show back then. [26:16] >> Just call it "The Common Folk." [26:18] >> At the time, I asked, "Is that really [26:20] what he said?" He said, "Yes, that's [26:22] what he said." [26:23] >> So, in the beginning, there were always [26:25] people rejecting us. [26:28] >> In truth, none of our hearts are made [26:30] of paper; we can take it. [26:32] >> I think we’re quite confident. Like [26:36] the clip just now, Wen Tao mentioned [26:38] the "train of the times" leaving us [26:40] behind. I think I’m actually quite [26:43] arrogant when influenced by my pride. [26:47] When I get the feeling that I've been [26:49] left behind by the times, I always [26:50] respond to myself with one thought: "Oh [26:52] really? Do you think that thing you're [26:57] on is truly the train of the times?" [27:02] >> I often talk back to young people, say, [27:04] someone in their twenties who acts a [27:05] bit arrogant toward me; I tell them, " [27:07] You think you're young?" In the eyes of [27:13] teenagers, you’re already an auntie [27:15] or an uncle. That usually takes their [27:20] edge off. Also, we're not done yet. You [27:27] think the "train of the times" is [27:29] moving forward? Who do you think built [27:34] that train? We all played a part in [27:38] different fields, right? Media, [27:42] communications, academia, literature— [27:45] we are part of the train itself. You're [27:48] riding on our train as it moves forward [27:50] ; what are you being so arrogant about? [27:52] I really do lecture them like that. And [27:54] what Zhi Dong said earlier is very [27:56] interesting: why do we look in the [27:58] mirror and think, "That's not me"? When [28:01] do we first start feeling like we’re [28:02] getting old? There are many different [28:05] ways. One is looking in the mirror, [28:07] right? How could yesterday— [28:08] >> Especially after a fall, looking in the [28:10] mirror. [28:11] >> Right, or saying— " [28:12] >> Is the mirror broken?" Or some specific [28:15] moment. Like, I always say I shower in [28:19] the dark now every night, because [28:20] there’s a big mirror in my bathroom. [28:23] I can't bring myself to keep the lights [28:25] on while looking at my decaying body, [28:27] my really decaying body. I always [28:29] shower in the dark, and you might [28:31] shower in the dark too, which is why [28:32] you might fall. [28:33] >> You really shouldn't do that, you don't [28:35] want to end up like him and fall. Oh, [28:37] right, I don't even dare to look at my [28:39] own body. Besides the mirror, there's [28:43] also other people; you can see your own [28:44] decline through their eyes. Take me for [28:48] example, we haven't seen each other in [28:50] two years, I haven't been on the show, [28:52] and I've gone from my 50s to my early [28:54] 60s. Once you hit that "six" figure, no [28:57] matter what, people just categorize you [28:59] as an elderly person. It's true, I [29:02] don't need to pay for tickets anymore; [29:04] I went to a carpet exhibit in Beijing [29:06] yesterday and didn't need a ticket. I [29:08] even tried to force the money on them, [29:10] but they wouldn't have it, they [29:11] wouldn't take my fare. They took one [29:13] look at my ID, saw I was over 60, and [29:15] of course, I...When we occasionally run [29:18] into fans, for example, young girls, [29:20] they used to say, "Mr. Ma, I'm a fan of [29:22] yours." Right? Now they say something [29:24] else. " [29:25] >> My mom is a fan of yours." [29:26] >> I’ve even met some who said, "My [29:28] grandma is a fan of yours." I just fell [29:30] apart, you know? How do I answer them? [29:32] I usually say, "What a pity, your [29:34] mom’s already married," that's how I [29:36] usually respond. Right, right. [29:39] >> Because Mr. Chen Qigang thinks the same [29:41] way, I found I think just like him. [29:46] He’s much older than me, but I dare [29:48] to say this: in my heart, and you can [29:50] laugh at me for this, I still feel like [29:52] I’m that same person a few years out [29:54] of college. I just haven’t realized [29:58] I’ve aged. Uh, how did I find out I [30:02] was old? It’s when you all told me, [30:05] when others told me. Others would say, [30:09] "Look how much he's aged," or the [30:11] audience’s reaction, "Oh, haven't [30:13] seen him in years, he's aged." I’d [30:17] say, "Oh," or when buying tickets [30:19] online, there's that age gate you have [30:21] to select. [30:22] >> So frustrating, can't find it, right? [30:25] Telling you, at that moment. [30:27] >> Until just a few years ago, I had to [30:29] restrain a certain instinct. Whenever I [30:31] saw a mature man or woman, I would [30:33] instinctively call them "uncle" or " [30:35] auntie." Then I realized, what a joke! [30:37] They don't want you to say that; you [30:39] can't just call someone "auntie." They [30:41] might be younger than you, it's not [30:42] certain. This shows that we are all the [30:44] same. The "you" living inside, that age [30:46] is very different from your actual age, [30:48] but people on the outside will never [30:50] forget your true age. They have all [30:53] sorts of ways to remind you of it. [30:54] >> Sigh. [30:55] >> You know, about what Mr. Ma said [30:56] regarding breaking down, I wouldn't say [30:58] I'd break down, but I would be shocked. [31:00] It happens quite often that people much [31:02] older than you come up and say, "I grew [31:04] up watching your show," and the first [31:06] time, you still feel like, "Oh." Then [31:08] you think, "Oh, is that really true?" [31:10] >> I will always remember back when I was [31:12] in my 40s. I was talking to a senior in [31:16] the literary and media circles who was [31:18] around 60. [31:20] >> I thought he was getting old, so I said [31:22] to him, "Hey, senior.""It's time for [31:25] you to write your memoirs, you really [31:27] should," and he is a very gentle person [31:29] , but he immediately got upset. He said [31:31] , "Why would I write memoirs? Why write [31:34] about history? I am still someone who [31:36] creates history.""Why would I go write [31:39] about history now?" You need to have [31:41] that kind of self-confidence and great [31:43] ambition. I think from this perspective [31:45] , when are you actually old? When you [31:50] no longer have that great ambition in [31:51] your heart, no longer have that grand [31:53] purpose, and no longer think, "I have [31:55] to do something," that is when you are [31:57] truly old in this sense. It doesn't [32:00] matter if you become—because getting [32:02] old can make you gentle; someone who [32:04] was very fierce and strict when young [32:05] might become the opposite, very tender. [32:08] Like me, I've always been gentle, maybe [32:10] I'll get sterner as I age, so it's [32:12] different for everyone. But I feel that [32:16] for everyone, it means you've admitted [32:18] defeat, you've surrendered your great [32:20] ambition, laid down your weapons and [32:22] your armor—that's it. Don't think [32:27] that only young people "lie flat," you [32:28] know? The moment you lie flat, you are [32:32] old, that's what I think. A beautiful [32:35] way to put it is, "Take a step back and [32:36] the sky opens up." [32:37] >> Ah, that sounds nice. It sounds nice. [32:40] >> It's okay to age, just don't become [32:42] senile. Just don't be both decrepit and [32:45] old. Although [32:47] >> Actually, I prefer Mr. Jia's expression [32:49] , because most people would say, just [32:52] like [32:52] >> what Mr. Xu said, "Oh, take a step back [32:54] and the sky opens up," saying that at a [32:56] certain age, you must be open-minded, [32:58] you must retreat from the world, and [33:00] have a calm and indifferent mindset. Mm [33:02] . [33:02] >> But I feel that he dares to say that as [33:03] long as you have great ambition in your [33:05] heart, [33:05] >> Mm. [33:06] >> then you aren't old. I think rarely [33:07] would an older person say, "Oh, I still [33:09] have great ambition, I am still not [33:11] satisfied, I am still..." right? [33:13] >> I think this is actually particularly [33:15] precious; most people would be ashamed [33:16] to admit that, right? [33:17] >> You have great ambition. [33:18] >> I don't have great ambition. I don't [33:20] think I've ever had great ambition, but [33:22] in such a petite body, how could there [33:23] be great ambition? [33:24] >> I think perhaps our standards for [33:26] what's "a big deal" are different; for [33:28] me, it’s just about wanting to do [33:29] certain things. What do you do every [33:31] day then? I’m not like you; I don't [33:33] like collecting stones or appreciating [33:35] antiques, I don't understand those [33:37] things. But you must be doing something [33:38] , right? Maybe for me, that thing is my [33:40] "big deal." To others, it might be, [33:43] well, not worth mentioning. But I think [33:45] we all have our own little "big deals." [33:49] >> No, it's just that as you get older, [33:51] you might start worrying about your [33:53] career. For instance, whether the show [34:02] is still popular, whether I’ll go out [34:04] of style, or if I can still make a [34:05] living—I decided a long time ago that [34:07] I would keep going, try to stay on this [34:09] "train of the times" as long as [34:11] possible, and adapt by making minor [34:13] adjustments without completely [34:15] compromising who I am. But the day I [34:21] can't keep up anymore and can't change, [34:23] I'll just get off. Everyone has that [34:26] stop; I haven't reached it yet, but it [34:28] will come. Right now, I think I could [34:32] accept it calmly, but maybe that's [34:33] because I'm still keeping up, so I feel [34:35] composed. When that moment actually [34:39] arrives, I might still feel reluctant [34:41] —I can’t say for sure. When you get [34:44] off, your savings will be enough, right [34:46] ? [34:47] >> Anyway, for people nowadays, it seems [34:50] there's no major issue with living to [34:52] 120, right? [34:54] >> I mean, technology can actually make [34:56] that possible. [34:57] >> Is the money you earned in the first 60 [34:59] years enough to support you until 120? [35:01] >> I don’t know, couldn't you share some [35:03] of your inheritance with me? [35:05] >> A good friend's inheritance. [35:06] >> Now that you mention it. My whole plan [35:09] has to change; I’ve been waiting for [35:11] you to keep your promise, the one Lu Yu [35:13] made over a decade ago. [35:15] >> You said if I fell on hard times in my [35:17] old age, I could live in your garage. [35:19] >> We don't even have a garage ourselves [35:20] anymore. [35:21] >> No more garage. [35:22] >> It’s like this: it’s a contest to [35:24] see who lives the longest. [35:26] >> Hmm. Isn't it sad to live a long life [35:28] but have no money? [35:29] >> Does the person who lives the longest [35:31] inherit the other person's estate? Oh, [35:33] you really are my sister. No, seriously [35:36] , I think we need to be honest here. My [35:40] only concern is exactly this, because [35:42] I’m the type of person who always [35:44] imagines the worst-case scenario. I’m [35:48] telling you, it’s better not to be [35:50] famous, but the problem is, we’ve [35:52] unfortunately ended up on this path [35:53] that relies on fame. So, the only thing [35:57] that information about aging triggers [35:59] in me is the realization that, well, I [36:01] guess I haven't earned enough money yet [36:03] . Anyway, let’s stop talking about me [36:06] . Look at this. Foucault’s philosophy [36:08] proposes something very interesting. He [36:11] calls it the existence of a certain [36:13] power within society. [36:14] >> Discourse. [36:15] >> There is a will within discourse. [36:17] However, don't assume that the will he [36:19] refers to belongs to any single person. [36:21] For example, in the old society, it [36:23] might have been said that a woman [36:24] should just go home and be a housewife. [36:27] This is an invisible discourse, a kind [36:29] of will, but it... [36:30] >> It's called being virtuous. Right, but [36:33] it seems to declare something, it [36:35] passes judgment on something, and if [36:37] people aren't influenced by it, well— [36:39] and look at the internet now, I find it [36:41] very interesting, perhaps these [36:43] self-media outlets do it for traffic, [36:45] as such headlines always get clicks. [36:48] But sometimes I find it quite [36:50] fascinating; have you noticed how some [36:51] headlines are always so eager to [36:53] declare? That the era of whoever [36:57] dominated the box office is over, that [36:59] a new star has emerged, that someone— [37:01] like an old actor—is out. I find that [37:07] so many people online love to declare [37:09] that an era has passed, or that some [37:11] era has ended and another one has begun [37:13] . Beyond just chasing traffic or being [37:19] sensationalist, do you feel like [37:20] there’s a will behind all of this? [37:25] This will seems to enjoy passing [37:27] judgment on new eras. What you’re [37:30] saying might also be a resignation to [37:32] fate, or a resignation to reality. I [37:34] remember a musician many years ago—we [37:36] all know him—who eventually quit. He [37:41] said music is so tied to age, and he [37:43] said, "Oh, the younger generation is [37:45] truly impressive; when you talk to [37:46] these kids, they are really sharp, but [37:48] you listen to what they say, and I feel [37:50] like it’s all polite talk on the [37:52] surface, but in reality, they’re [37:54] digging a hole for us." I asked, " [37:58] Digging what?""Digging our graves." He [38:00] ended up retiring early because he felt [38:02] this was a career for the youth; he [38:04] believed that once you reach a certain [38:06] point, you’re just no longer suited [38:07] for it. [38:08] >> You can look at it physiologically, in [38:10] terms of birth, aging, sickness, and [38:11] death. Mm-hmm. [38:12] >> We can also discuss the crisis of [38:14] public persona from the perspective of [38:16] how the media operates. But what you're [38:18] touching on is the primary driving [38:20] force behind the train of the era. [38:22] >> Yes. [38:22] >> That is the theory of evolution. [38:24] >> Evolutionary theory. Chinese people [38:27] have traditionally believed in the [38:29] cyclic view of history—that fortune [38:30] changes every thirty years. In the past [38:33] , we referred to "predecessors" or " [38:35] sages." These terms referred to those [38:37] who came before. Confucius and Mencius [38:40] were the predecessors, the sages. When [38:43] we called the people of the past the " [38:45] Three Sovereigns and Five Emperors," or [38:47] "sages," we were facing the past. [38:50] Starting from the May Fourth Movement [38:52] or even the late Qing Dynasty, our [38:54] concepts quietly shifted toward the [38:56] theory of evolution. Turned into what? [39:00] A series of concepts appeared: [39:01] avant-garde, progressive, new, young. [39:05] These are typical. Everything is valued [39:09] for being "new." This is the direction [39:14] of social progress; the basic intent of [39:15] the train is where it's heading. It [39:21] must head toward the new, the [39:22] progressive, and the avant-garde. Thus, [39:27] the "old" became something to be [39:29] discarded and even condemned. Mmh. [39:34] >> So this is the ideology behind the [39:36] discourse against the "old." From the [39:40] 1920s, 30s, 40s, 50s, the ideology had [39:43] to turn over every decade. They had to [39:47] reject the previous decade. That’s [39:50] why I’m reading a book about novels [39:52] from the last 20 years; they summarize [39:54] it as the "Long Nineties." Meaning that [39:58] in the entire literature and cultural [40:00] ideological background, there haven't [40:02] been such earth-shattering changes [40:04] every 10 or 20 years. [40:05] >> I think Apple is beautiful. Yes. [40:07] >> I would definitely think of Nokia. This [40:10] is because they were earlier, or from [40:12] the same era. For example, when Apple [40:15] released the first iPhone, Nokia [40:17] released something like the N75. What [40:20] is the theory I see here? [40:22] >> Your value judgment is attached to many [40:24] stories. [40:25] >> The story is that Apple later became [40:27] the world's best mobile phone, and that [40:29] story ends up influencing your [40:31] aesthetic judgment. So when you look [40:33] back, you think, "Oh, look at how [40:35] clumsy Nokia's design was back then."" [40:37] Apple's design was really brilliant." [40:39] Actually, at the time, Nokia's design [40:41] might have been better than Apple's. [40:44] >> But because of the outcome of that [40:45] story, it led to your... [40:48] >> Right. [40:50] >> This story plays the role of allowing [40:51] you to make a value judgment. Without [40:55] this story, you cannot make a value [40:57] judgment. It's like us novices walking [41:03] into a modern art museum; without a [41:05] docent by our side to tell us the story [41:07] , I am completely unable to make any [41:09] value judgment. If I happen to know [41:15] someone, the museum might invite an [41:17] expert to explain it to me, then I'd [41:19] understand. [41:22] >> But I think that’s wrong; you’re [41:24] being tricked that way. I’m actually [41:27] talking about classical art museums, [41:29] because as civilized people, we’ve [41:31] been trained and conditioned. We must [41:33] like calligraphy, we must like Yan [41:35] Zhenqing or Wang Xizhi; there’s no [41:37] room for negotiation. That’s a [41:39] traditional cultural requirement. [41:42] >> But a contemporary art museum, its [41:44] exhibitions—the very nature of being [41:45] democratic—actually shouldn’t [41:47] provide that kind of formula. [41:50] >> What is the standard for judgment? [41:51] It’s your own experience. [41:52] >> You need to observe yourself. [41:54] >> If you feel like you don’t get it, or [41:56] you don’t know what this guy is up to [41:57] , then... [41:58] >> That just means the artist failed; they [42:00] didn't pull it off. [42:01] >> They didn't have the ability to reach [42:03] you; if they had the ability, they [42:04] should have made you feel it. First and [42:06] foremost, you should feel that it’s [42:08] rare. Uncommon, but it should still [42:10] make you feel acceptable. Right, [42:12] that’s not easy. I think contemporary [42:15] art should achieve that. The current [42:17] faulty theory is just this: the artist [42:19] makes something random, and when people [42:21] see it, they are dumbfounded. [42:24] >> After being dumbfounded, they look at [42:25] the signs, then listen to the tour [42:27] guide’s explanation. That’s wrong. [42:30] >> One should ask themselves if they were [42:31] moved. What I’m saying is that you [42:34] actually have the right to use your own [42:36] judgment—like, "I was truly [42:38] stimulated by it." And I was truly [42:41] moved by it, and attracted to it. Oh, [42:43] it’s strange. Why is it that, even [42:45] though I rarely see things like this, I [42:47] find it quite pleasant, beautiful, [42:49] comfortable, and great? At that moment, [42:52] you are actually participating in [42:54] judging the work. If no one is moved, [42:57] the artist should go back and revise it [42:59] . If everyone is moved, this piece has [43:02] a chance to slowly become a classical [43:04] work. [43:05] >> Become a classic. [43:06] >> You see, we are talking about [43:08] aesthetics here, right? It can always [43:10] be proven wrong. [43:11] >> Right. [43:12] >> No matter how much you say, I can [43:14] always come up with examples that [43:15] contradict it. [43:17] >> Hmm. [43:18] >> For instance... [43:19] >> Are we conditioned or not? Have we been [43:21] trained this way? Never mind that for [43:24] now; in science, many things are [43:26] counterintuitive. Hmm. [43:28] >> I think there is, for example... [43:30] >> If I go to a museum to look at art now, [43:33] >> Hmm. [43:34] >> I actually have to do some cleaning [43:36] work on myself. [43:38] >> I feel there are two types of artwork. [43:41] >> Hmm. One type is veiled by culture; if [43:44] you don't understand the relevant [43:46] Taoist culture, you can't grasp its [43:50] >> beauty or the like. But there is [43:53] another kind that I prefer to view with [43:55] my intuition. [43:57] >> Hmm. [43:58] >> For example, let’s talk about the [44:00] Song Dynasty. We know Fan Kuan’s " [44:02] Travelers Among Mountains and Streams" [44:04] is now at the Palace Museum in Taipei; [44:06] I’ve been there to see the original. [44:10] I feel I had no real understanding of [44:12] it before. [44:13] >> Ancient Chinese philosophy speaks of " [44:15] following the Tao of nature," aiming [44:17] for an effect that lets you face nature [44:18] directly. [44:19] >> Facing nature directly—look at it, [44:21] regardless of the techniques he used, [44:23] >> but that sense of massive scale, [44:25] >> actually, I think humans have a sense [44:27] for energy, just like meeting someone [44:29] with a strong aura, [44:30] >> the sense of power they bring overall. [44:32] >> Perhaps if you understand Taoist [44:34] culture, you can interpret many symbols [44:36] within it, but that—yes, yes. [44:40] >> I believe even if I didn't know what [44:42] the pyramids were for, standing before [44:43] them for the first time, I would feel [44:45] like I’m standing before a, shall we [44:47] say, pulsar or a black hole. [44:50] >> They are what you might call "huge [44:51] silent objects." [44:52] >> The impact on a person is very— [44:54] >> That is facing nature directly; we [44:56] don’t need religion, [44:59] >> we don’t need culture, I could even [45:01] be illiterate, but there is something [45:03] —if we speak in terms of physics, [45:04] perhaps it’s an energy vibration wave [45:06] —some art really can reach that level [45:08] ; it doesn't need cultural [45:09] ornamentation. For instance, speaking [45:13] from my own experience, when I was a [45:15] child, I had never been taught, nor had [45:18] I ever seen, bronze artifacts. [45:20] >> Never seen them. [45:21] >> Hmm. [45:24] >> The first time I saw the shapes and [45:26] patterns on those massive bronze [45:27] vessels, [45:31] >> you don't know what is depicted, you [45:32] don't know what they are, [45:33] >> Right. [45:35] >> But that aura—You couldn't possibly [45:36] fail to feel the immense power [45:38] contained within them. It has a kind of [45:41] power, it’s like an energy object. [45:43] >> Right. [45:44] >> This, I think, you’d say I’ve been [45:45] conditioned. [45:46] >> It is conditioning. [45:47] >> Perhaps. [45:48] >> This is because we, the people of the [45:50] Bronze Age, and Fan Kuan still belong, [45:52] in a different sense, to the same [45:54] cultural community. [45:56] >> Surely the Upper Cave Man or a [45:58] Neanderthal wouldn't find Fan Kuan [46:00] beautiful. Right. [46:04] >> But I always feel that the aura formed [46:05] by an artwork can resonate with the [46:07] viewer. [46:10] >> This involves neural mechanisms and [46:12] pure visual rules. [46:14] >> A spiritual connection between two [46:16] entities that suddenly resonates. [46:19] >> Isn't that thing also made of the same [46:21] material as those two energy bodies? [46:26] >> Yes, as Mr. Cai just said, there must [46:28] be some mechanism at work in the brain. [46:33] What we call an artist's expressiveness [46:34] is actually this very thing. It’s [46:37] that he knows what happens after you [46:39] see this artwork. [46:44] >> The expressiveness he provides brings [46:45] you something that ordinary art cannot, [46:47] so it still relates to your daily life [46:49] experience, but it’s something [46:51] missing from the average person's daily [46:52] experience. [46:57] >> It's not common. [46:58] >> Right, it doesn't bring it to you often [47:00] . So, as we just mentioned, when they [47:03] conduct these aesthetic tests, they [47:05] also ask you a question. After you [47:10] answer whether it is beautiful or ugly, [47:12] they ask if you understand the [47:13] aesthetic object. What is the result [47:17] regarding beauty? That part is [47:20] basically all understo…um… [47:22] >> And ugliness. Generally, you can't say [47:27] much; it could be understood or not [47:28] understood, but for the beautiful part, [47:30] you can usually offer some kind of [47:32] moral justification. [47:36] >> Hmm. [47:38] >> So this means it must align with your [47:40] values, otherwise you wouldn't feel [47:41] it’s beautiful for no reason at all, [47:43] right? What Mr. Qiu is talking about [47:49] still relates to this attribution, and [47:51] anyway, I’ve always preferred one [47:53] thing regarding art. That is, to look [47:57] at it through a scientific lens. Indeed [47:59] . [48:00] >> Right, because people tend to describe [48:02] the art experience as very mysterious. [48:04] >> Yes, yes. During the Renaissance, Da [48:06] Vinci had to use his specific methods [48:08] to bring a sense of wonder to the [48:10] people of that time. [48:12] >> By Picasso’s era, he had to use his [48:14] own methods to bring wonder to people [48:16] of that time; the artist's function [48:18] remains unchanged—to create these [48:20] feelings—but to achieve the same [48:21] effect, they must constantly innovate [48:23] their techniques. [48:25] >> Yes. [48:26] >> Only then can they avoid aesthetic [48:28] fatigue. Because we create art, we know [48:30] all too well that this is a craft. [48:32] >> And we have a whole set of secrets for [48:34] knowing how to make you feel those [48:35] feelings. [48:37] >> Isn't what we teach our students just [48:38] these specific crafts? [48:40] >> I am from Southern Fujian, and I [48:41] learned calligraphy from a young age [48:43] following Master Hong Yi's system. [48:44] >> Many people say, "Oh, it's because [48:45] Master Hong Yi was so profound, with [48:47] such high morals and a peaceful mind, [48:49] that his calligraphy has no trace of [48:50] worldly vulgarity." How would you [48:52] explain that? You hang it up and feel, [48:53] wow, this piece is a masterpiece, then [48:55] suddenly Teacher Qiu comes along and [48:57] says, oh, let me tell you, this is a [48:59] fake. [48:59] >> Mm, right. That doesn't hinder the fact [49:02] that you’ve been moved by it for the [49:03] past 20 years, right? [49:05] >> Why can a fake still move someone? I [49:07] think that is the most deconstructive [49:09] and the most profound point. [49:11] >> But allow me to be naive; for instance, [49:13] take the "Travelers Among Mountains and [49:16] Streams" I just mentioned, right? [49:18] >> Even if it isn't painted by Fan Kuan. [49:21] Even if it's a fake, it can still move [49:23] me, and when it’s exhibited, the [49:24] Palace Museum actually displays it [49:26] alongside the imitations made [49:28] throughout various dynasties. [49:30] >> Yes. [49:31] >> None of them compare to it. [49:36] >> Not only does none compare to it, but [49:38] up until today—you say this is your [49:40] craft, your technique—yet, for nearly [49:42] 1,000 years, I haven't seen—perhaps [49:44] my statement is a bit broad—I haven't [49:46] seen, I haven't seen another Chinese [49:48] painting that gives me the same sense [49:50] of energy, impact, and depth as " [49:52] Travelers Among Mountains and Streams." [49:58] >> Something. [50:00] >> So, you’re saying if this is an [50:01] artistic work whose technical necessity [50:03] you have mastered. [50:05] >> Or are you not confident enough in me? [50:07] Artists could do this experiment, [50:09] putting the real and the fake together. [50:11] >> Actually, we are doing that right now. [50:13] >> I look forward to you creating one like [50:15] that. [50:15] >> Right, can it be distinguished? [50:17] >> I bought a high-quality reproduction of [50:19] that painting and hung it in my little [50:21] loft. [50:22] >> I look at it every day, and every time [50:24] I look, I think it’s amazing. [50:27] That’s great, that just means you [50:28] have a connection with that painting, [50:30] right? [50:30] >> No, there are many others; why, [50:32] according to your theory, is a work of [50:34] art a "shelf-life" product, right? [50:36] >> I have many reproductions with long [50:38] shelf lives. Whenever I'm busy with [50:41] work and take a look, even if it's the [50:43] "Orchid Pavilion Preface," it’s truly [50:45] great every time I see it, it's just... [50:49] >> Discussing art and discussing beauty [50:50] are two different things; aesthetics [50:52] and art philosophy are two different [50:54] things. For example, when Brother Tao [50:56] looks at Wang Xizhi, he finds it [50:58] beautiful, and looking at "Travelers [51:00] Among Mountains and Streams" he also [51:02] finds it beautiful, because he isn't [51:03] looking at "Travelers Among Mountains [51:05] and Streams" in the same state as we [51:07] who are involved in art. Those of us [51:10] who do art cannot continue to just [51:11] think Wang Xizhi is beautiful; [51:13] otherwise, you have no capacity for [51:15] innovation. [51:16] >> Do you understand? It’s like saying [51:19] you are the scientist, and we are the [51:21] consumers of science. [51:25] >> He is a consumer of art like us, [51:27] that’s the distinction, which is why [51:28] the teacher said art and beauty are not [51:30] the same thing. Science, art, and [51:35] beauty, these are three different [51:37] things. [51:38] >> So, science has beauty, but that’s [51:40] not its essence; it is something else. [51:42] Art also has beauty, but art is not [51:44] essentially for the sake of beauty.