【你能接受孩子啃老吗？】半数年轻人工作后仍然靠父母接济，究竟是大环境不好？还是孩子不努力？真相可能跟你想的截然相反！#啃老 #就业 #经济 #教育

半数年轻人工作后仍靠父母接济：“啃老”背后的真相与代际困境 节目围绕当下青年就业困境与“全职儿女”现象展开，窦文涛与马未都、许子东、幼婷等嘉宾深入拆解了代际经济依赖背后的社会根源。嘉宾们对比了北欧的高福利托底机制与东亚的家庭代际互助模式，指出在房产红利终结与阶层流动放缓的背景下，年轻人依靠父母资助往往是现实所迫而非单纯偷懒。对谈进一步探讨了金钱与家庭控制权、代际心理创伤、亲子边界感以及精神独立与经济独立的辩证关系，最终落脚于接纳代际互助、理解至亲局限并完成内在自我的和解。 国际劳工组织（ILO）数据显示全球 13 亿青年中有 2.67 亿人不上班不读书全靠父母，北京大学中国家庭追踪调查（CFPS）亦显示中国适龄劳动力依赖父母的比例从 2010 年的不足 2% 飙升至 2018 年的超 40%。 (11:18) 当代青年难以超越父辈的财富鸿沟根源在于房产红利终结，老一辈依靠商品房制度红利积累起主要资产，而年轻一代仅凭工资收入在城市中已基本无法独立置业。 (13:27) 马未都指出“全职儿女”与“雇佣保姆”存在本质鸿沟，家庭内循环充斥着亲情之爱与无法替代性，使父母即便出资也难以彻底行使支配权与训斥权，但金钱依附常演变为加倍的心理控制与唠叨。 (3:14) 北欧芬兰通过高税收高福利机制将青年失业救济与老人护理直接转交政府承担，代际之间实现“无利益纯爱”，但该模式受限于国情人口，中国约 90% 老人仍必须依赖家庭居家养老。 (6:56)

节目指出，青年依赖父母或成为“全职儿女”并非单纯的个人怠惰，而是资产红利消退与职场高压下的全球性生存处境；家庭内部的经济资助虽能提供缓冲，但也常因情感捆绑与权力不对等引发代际内耗。 结构性困局与全球青年的代际差距 (11:18) 青年无法实现经济独立正成为跨国现象。国际劳工组织数据显示，全球13亿青年中有2.67亿人不工作也不在学；美国调查表明65%的Z世代与74%的00后认为自身财务积累滞后于父辈同龄水平；北京大学CFPS数据亦显示，中国适龄劳动力依赖父母的比例从2010年的不足2%跃升至2018年的40%以上。嘉宾分析，当代家庭财富的核心在于房产，老一辈受惠于商品房改革红利以低成本置产，而当代青年单凭薪资难以购房，导致资产积累天然无法超越父辈。即便在欧洲，1990年代起年轻人也普遍意识到生活水平难以企及普通的专业人士父母。 “家庭内循环”的代际互助与新型分工 (0:04) 在求职困难与父母衰老的双向需求下，部分家庭形成了“家庭内循环”。例如退休金近万元但缺乏数字技能与烹饪经验的老人，由全职在家的女儿料理医保、体检与三餐，双方各取所需。此外，全职子女还演化出家庭电商合伙、实地调研房市或监控银行高息定存等分工形式，甚至承担起家庭旅行的规划与落地。然而马未都强调，家庭互助与雇佣保姆存在本质分歧：雇佣关系属于纯契约，可考核与随时解雇；家庭关系则充斥着亲情与爱，父母即便对子女的服务不满意也难以严厉问责或断供，金钱无法转化为绝对的契约支配权。 制度救济与中外托底模式的差异 (6:56) 不同社会制度重塑了代际依赖的流向。芬兰等北欧高福利国家将青年失业救济、租房补贴及老年照护全部纳入政府体系，代际互动脱离了抚养与赡养的金钱捆绑，形成纯粹的情感往来，但这种模式依赖高税收与地广人稀的国情，难以普遍复制。相比之下，中国约90%的老人选择居家养老，庞大的人口基数决定了家庭仍是核心兜底载体。香港虽有综援兜底，但财政与居住空间紧张，援助水准无法与北欧相提并论，家庭在面对经济动荡时依然承担着极为沉重的互助压力。 经济依附下的心理规训与边界冲突 (20:09) 接受家庭供养往往伴随着高昂的心理代价。职场受挫促使年轻人退回家庭，但经济依附打破了代际界限，父母往往将出资转化为对婚恋、生育及生活细节的强力规训与说教，令子女陷入愧疚却无力反抗的循环。为了避免卷入无休止的压力，子女甚至演化出“装聋作哑”的防御机制。此外，许多空虚孤单的年迈父母试图以金钱绑定陪伴，将子女困于身边。嘉宾指出，破解内耗需要转变视角，既要理解年迈父母苛求背后如幼童求助般的无助，也需要建立物理与精神边界，避免将亲情异化为情感勒索。 精神独立的基础与父母的得体退场 (15:43) 针对精神独立与经济独立的关系，许子东认为缺乏经济独立通常难以实现精神独立，但其底线在于降低对物欲的要求，即“无欲则刚”，避免让欲望反噬自由。嘉宾认为，父母努力的终极意义在于为孩子提供“选择的机会”，而非包揽其人生；健康的家庭教育要求父母克服占有欲与“牺牲感”叙事，学会适时放手，接纳子女展翅远行。长期退缩在家庭舒适圈会使青年丧失应对现实风险的韧性，唯有走出家门、在外部世界的挫折中摸爬滚打，人生的经验与潜能才能被真正激活。 无论是全职陪伴还是外出闯荡，两代人各取所需的相处模式应当受到尊重。然而讨论留下了未解的张力：当社会过度拔高经济独立门槛时，两代人究竟该如何在现实的相互依存中划清界限，并在不平等的经济资助下保全彼此的精神自主。

[44:57] 许子东: 精神独立非常重要，但是精神独立要建立在一个基础上面：就是你对经济的要求不能太高。 [3:14] 马未都: 你跟孩子是有爱的，你没法提要求，你当然也没法替换。 [41:25] 许子东: 很多年以后，多少年过去以后，你发现你自己在重复，走你父亲的路的时候，你才懂得尊敬你可怜的父亲。 [44:57] 阿城: 反正你挣的钱越多，你为他牺牲的自由就越多，这个账你自己去算。 [76:38] 窦文涛: 无论每个人的选择是心安理得，还是理得心安，每个人的选择都值得被尊重。

[0:04] For the past seven years, we've been [0:06] discussing this behind the scenes. [0:08] >> How come he left right after the [0:10] recording? It was awkward, you know? [0:13] >> Don't look at the photos later. [0:15] >> I really often peek at his and Tie Ren's [0:19] life in Finland. [0:22] But what Youting just said was great, so [0:24] I think what Youting said and what we [0:27] wanted to talk about actually align; she [0:29] happens to be a mother of two children [0:31] now, right? [0:34] And she just imparted a very important [0:36] concept to me, which is that one should [0:39] be clear about accounts, and that [0:41] housework and being a mother is also a [0:43] job. [0:44] >> Hmm. [0:45] >> Isn't it? [0:46] >> Yes. [0:47] >> It can also be a source of income. [0:49] >> It can also be a source of income. [0:50] >> Then let me ask you another question: [0:53] what about being a child, what about [0:55] being a full-time child? [0:56] >> What does full-time mean? [0:58] >> Wow, look, look. You share some [1:01] situations in Finland with us, and I [1:02] want to share what we've been talking [1:04] about online here. [1:04] >> There is a term that doesn't sound very [1:06] nice. [1:07] >> It's called "living off one's parents." [1:09] >> I've heard of that. [1:10] >> Right, but now, we shouldn't [1:11] discriminate against any lifestyle. Hmm [1:14] . [1:14] >> There is a kind of person who is [1:16] justified in doing so. Living off [1:18] parents. For example, it's very [1:20] difficult to find a job now, right? [1:22] Right. They go home because they can't [1:25] find work. But for this young woman, her [1:28] parents 'combined pensions add up to [1:31] nearly ten thousand. [1:33] Her father isn't a good cook, and her [1:35] mother doesn't cook either. [1:38] The two elderly parents love to work, [1:41] but they don't understand modern [1:43] technology. [1:45] They can't figure out phones, paying [1:47] bills, or social security, so they just [1:50] like to go out and work. [1:54] With a daughter at home taking care of [1:56] all of this—buying insurance for her [1:59] parents, managing their daily life—when [2:01] they get home, the food is delicious. [2:06] And so, her parents give her the money, [2:09] not just as... [2:10] >> Which money do they give her? [2:12] >> They give her the money they earn. [2:14] >> They entrust her to manage it, so she [2:16] effectively takes care of... [2:18] >> Her parents' lives. The parents are [2:20] actually quite old. So, does that mean [2:22] they pay her a salary? [2:24] >> Not exactly, it's just that they give [2:25] her the money for daily expenses; she is [2:27] their child. But in reality, her role in [2:30] this family is the same as yours. Buying [2:32] insurance, taking them for medical [2:35] checkups, helping them out, and even [2:37] planning their trips; that’s how this [2:39] family survives. [2:40] >> Hmm. This daughter can be fully [2:43] justified. Two years ago, there was a [2:45] very popular discussion on Douban called [2:47] something like the "Full-Time Daughter [2:49] Exchange Center." [2:50] >> Hmm. [2:52] >> Many people look down on it, thinking [2:54] it’s some form of living off your [2:55] parents, but they would say, "Isn't my [2:57] labor...""... [2:58] >> worth this income?" In our family, we [3:00] all feel this is fine; parents are happy [3:03] their daughter doesn't have to leave, [3:05] maybe the only nagging is, "Why don't [3:07] you find a boyfriend? Why aren't you [3:09] married yet?" [3:10] >> But we’ve lived in peace this way, at [3:13] least up until now. [3:14] >> Nowadays, besides calling them a [3:16] full-time daughter, there’s an even [3:19] better name: family internal circulation [3:22] . Everyone talks about internal [3:24] circulation now, right? Internal [3:26] circulation economy means not relying on [3:29] the outside, we do it ourselves. Family [3:32] internal circulation is about whoever [3:34] earns the money spends it within the [3:36] home, because from a consumption [3:38] perspective, I... [3:42] >> For example, you handle everything for [3:44] me, so to me, you are a product; I'm [3:47] buying your service, right? [3:51] I give you the money, and you don't go [3:53] out and waste it, right? [3:56] You might buy things back, which is how [3:59] some describe family internal [4:01] circulation, but the point is, if it's a [4:03] full-time daughter, it’s still different [4:06] from hiring a domestic helper. [4:09] There’s a big difference between my [4:12] domestic helper and my daughter. I can [4:14] scold my helper if she does a poor job. [4:16] >> You wouldn't dare scold your daughter. [4:18] >> I wouldn't dare scold my daughter. [4:20] >> Right? My daughter cooks terribly, and [4:23] there’s an even more important [4:24] difference. [4:24] >> With a helper, you can... [4:26] >> Hire them this year and not next year. [4:28] >> Exactly, you can replace them. [4:29] >> Your children...... [4:31] >> cannot be replaced. [4:32] >> Your daughter manages all your household [4:34] affairs, and you still have to be [4:35] responsible for her...... [4:36] >> life. And you can't even make demands; [4:39] if I make a demand, it’s not me scolding [4:41] her, she turns around and scolds me. But [4:43] if you provide the money—meaning you [4:45] control the financial power over your [4:47] children—wouldn't you be able to speak [4:49] with more authority? Because...... [4:52] >> there’s a component of love involved. [4:54] With my helper, there's no love, please [4:57] don't have any love, you know? I’m [4:59] always terrified that my helper will [5:01] fall in love with me. Because my helper [5:03] often comes back saying, "Hey, my helper [5:05] friends all say, 'You are handsome, your [5:08] boss is handsome.'" Like that, and I get [5:11] terrified. Coming back to the point, you [5:13] have love with your children, so you [5:15] can't make demands, and of course, you [5:17] can't replace them. Is there a saying [5:20] for this in Hong Kong? They call having [5:22] children a "zero-capital business," [5:24] meaning there's no cost involved. [5:27] Generally speaking, even if I have [5:29] conflicts or arguments with you, two [5:31] days later I’ll still treat you well and [5:34] take you out for your birthday. [5:37] Is that a given? [5:39] >> Exactly, it’s a given, so you can't [5:42] really make too many demands, right? I [5:44] told my daughter her cooking was [5:46] terrible, and she said, "If it's [5:48] terrible, cook it yourself." Should I [5:51] stop giving her money? [5:52] >> Can you actually stop giving her money? [5:55] Yeah, you can't stop. [5:56] >> Right, you are all good parents. I’ve [6:00] heard that many young people studying [6:02] abroad are just clinging to that [6:04] lifestyle. But in reality, they can't [6:07] find jobs. This is a global issue. [6:10] There’s a TV show, an American series [6:13] called "Girls." Many people watched it [6:15] and felt a strong resonance, but they [6:17] still couldn't bring themselves to like [6:20] the girl. Why? Because this girl [6:22] represents a reality; girls like this [6:24] really exist. Her parents tell her, " [6:26] You’ve graduated, yet you're still [6:28] clinging to your life in New York. It's [6:31] been two years. We're just ordinary [6:33] teachers, we can't afford your phone [6:35] bills, your rent, or anything else," and [6:38] then the daughter says, "You know what? [6:40] All my friends are being subsidized by [6:43] their parents, right? [6:45] If you don't support me—there’s a girl I [6:48] know whose parents cut her off, and she [6:50] ended up having several abortions and [6:52] becoming a drug addict, so..." [6:54] >> You have cases like that? [6:56] >> That’s why Professor Ma mentions "love, [6:58] " which really refers to "relationships [7:00] ." After I moved to Finland, the thing I [7:02] thought about most, and most often, was [7:03] relationships. Because I had a child, I [7:05] became a more independent person. When [7:08] you want to rely on someone but have no [7:10] friends to turn to, I think about how [7:12] Finland teaches you independence from a [7:14] young age. It’s not just about the [7:16] mother being independent or the state [7:18] providing subsidies; even for children, [7:20] if you’re unemployed, the state helps [7:22] you. When you're unemployed, you don't [7:25] go to your mom for money, saying, "Mom, [7:27] I can't find a job, will you support me [7:29] ?" No, you go straight to social [7:31] services and say, "I can't find a job." [7:33] Then social services will ask, "Okay, [7:35] what are your career aspirations?"" [7:37] We’ll help you with training." Then, [7:39] they’ll give you money so you can at [7:41] least afford basic housing. They don't [7:44] tell you to move back home; they tell [7:46] you to rent a place outside. Of course, [7:48] not somewhere expensive, but at least [7:50] somewhere with basic food and shelter so [7:52] you can continue to look for work. To [7:55] find what you're looking for, right? So [7:57] , for everything, they think of the [7:58] government first, not their parents. [8:00] Likewise, when parents get old and need [8:02] help, they don't think about bringing [8:04] their kids home to care for them; they [8:06] think about asking the government, "Do I [8:09] have any retirement or old-age subsidies [8:11] ?" Right? Just like our social insurance [8:14] or pension, right? You start collecting [8:16] money, and once you have that, you start [8:18] thinking, "I need someone to look after [8:20] me," and the social services department [8:22] says, "Fine, we'll send a nurse to see [8:24] you for medicine, injections, or even [8:26] walks." They will come to see you at set [8:28] intervals and take you for a walk. So, [8:30] everyone can live alone, no matter your [8:33] age—excluding children, of course— [8:35] everyone can. That makes things [8:37] interesting. Their relationships aren't [8:40] as close-knit as ours, I have to admit, [8:43] but when they do choose to be together— [8:45] say, children and parents at my age—and [8:48] they are still willing to spend time [8:50] together, they tell me this is "pure [8:53] love," meaning this is true love. [8:55] >> There is no money involved between us. [8:58] Right? I truly love you, I truly like [9:01] you, and I enjoy being with you, which [9:03] is why I come back to see you. And you [9:05] also like being with me, so you come. My [9:07] friend's parents are so independent that [9:09] when he had to go on a four-day business [9:11] trip and had no one to look after his [9:13] child, he asked his parents to help. His [9:15] parents came down from central Finland, [9:17] but after two days of babysitting, they [9:18] said, "For the other two days, I'm going [9:20] to my summer cabin." Finns love their [9:22] summer cabins; they'd say, "I'm going to [9:24] my cabin, I'm staying at the cabin."" [9:26] >> It’s nothing major, not an emergency, [9:28] just find a nanny for the other two days [9:30] ." [9:30] >> Yeah, yeah. [9:31] >> And then they just left. It sounds like [9:34] another world, but you know, this [9:36] approach doesn't necessarily apply [9:38] everywhere, because look at how few [9:41] people there are there, right? [9:45] Besides, their society has developed for [9:47] so long under this so-called Nordic [9:50] high-welfare model, but I'm sure there [9:52] are issues there too, like higher [9:55] suicide rates and such, right? [9:57] >> Indeed, because their family [9:59] relationships aren't that harmonious—or [10:01] let's say, not that close—they truly [10:03] feel that when they have a problem, they [10:05] should turn to the government. I [10:07] wouldn't—I wouldn't seek help from [10:09] family or friends, and I feel the [10:11] situation in China is just too different [10:13] . With such a huge population, and [10:15] considering the way China approaches [10:17] elder care. [10:18] >> Regardless of your circumstances, [10:20] currently 90%of the elderly still age at [10:23] home. Hmm. [10:24] >> You could try to convince them that the [10:26] government provides and pays for [10:28] everything everywhere else in the world [10:30] , but I’m telling you, it’s impossible; [10:32] it’s deeply rooted in culture, history, [10:34] and national conditions. My own [10:36] experience with aging makes me realize [10:39] that for a considerably long time to [10:41] come, we will likely continue to have [10:43] the vast majority of the elderly aging [10:46] at home. [10:46] >> Hmm. [10:47] >> Actually, Hong Kong is also similar to [10:49] Finland in this regard. Really? [10:51] >> Yes, if you have no money in Hong Kong, [10:53] the government provides assistance. It’s [10:56] just that in Hong Kong, overall finances [10:58] and housing are so tight that what they [11:00] provide for a person’s livelihood isn't [11:02] as generous or comfortable as in Finland [11:04] , where it's nearly ten thousand dollars [11:06] . Many people have crunched the numbers [11:09] ; for some poorer families, all four [11:11] members receiving government assistance [11:13] is better than going out to work. Hmm, [11:15] this situation exists in Finland too, [11:18] right? [11:18] >> Yes, but I think we are truly in a [11:21] period of change unseen in millennia. [11:24] The world is changing, including the [11:26] West, which is also shifting. I’ve [11:29] looked at some figures recently. I [11:31] really doubt those numbers. [11:33] >> I even doubt if these numbers are real, [11:35] though they seem to come from [11:36] authoritative sources. [11:37] >> Hmm. Can you imagine? The International [11:41] Labour Organization released the " [11:43] Global Employment Trends for Youth 2020 [11:45] "—it might be even worse now—among the [11:48] world's 1.3 billion young people. How [11:50] many are not working? 267 million. [11:54] >> That's quite a lot. [11:56] >> 267 million rely on their parents for [11:59] care and financial support. [12:03] And then, there’s a 2023 survey on [12:06] Generation Z in the United States. [12:09] Do you know what Generation Z is? [12:11] >> Those born between 1995 and 2010—you’re [12:15] still clear on that, right? 65%of Gen Z [12:17] and 74%of those born after 2000 believe [12:20] their financial progress is far behind [12:23] that of their parents 'generation. Hmm. [12:26] >> Do you understand? It means that we used [12:28] to think kids were just lazy and [12:30] unwilling to endure hardship, but now, [12:32] many young people in places like [12:34] Shenzhen tell me, "You...you are the [12:35] generation that enjoyed the dividends of [12:38] the economic boom." Young people today [12:40] sometimes work harder and longer hours [12:42] than their parents did, yet they earn [12:45] much less money. It’s a global [12:47] phenomenon; they feel their financial [12:49] progress is far behind that of their [12:51] parents' generation, and the percentage [12:53] of them living with their parents is [12:55] much higher than in the past. Right, [12:57] according to data from Peking [12:58] University’s China Family Panel Studies [13:00] , the percentage of the working-age [13:02] population relying on their parents. I— [13:04] I can’t believe that number. It says [13:08] this rate of relying on parents jumped [13:11] from less than 2%in 2010 to over 40%in [13:15] 2018. [13:15] >> 40 percent. I think there might be a [13:18] problem with how they define "relying on [13:21] parents." Professor Zidong, do you give [13:23] your daughter money now? Jiahui, do you [13:25] give your daughter money? [13:27] >> I don’t give my daughter money, but I [13:29] remember a line from a movie where the [13:31] daughter says: "You should cherish the [13:33] fact that we’re still asking you for [13:34] money." [13:35] >> Exactly, exactly. [13:37] >> If my daughter really asked me for money [13:39] , I should cherish that opportunity, [13:41] right? [13:42] >> That was unthinkable when we were young [13:44] . [13:44] >> I mean, as soon as you graduated. It was [13:47] already difficult for parents to support [13:49] us through university back then. [13:50] >> What is the reason? Do you know? For the [13:53] vast majority of Chinese families today [13:55] , their wealth comes from real estate. [13:57] >> And houses were only acquired by our [14:00] parents 'generation—those now aged 40 or [14:02] 50 and above—during that transitional [14:05] period. But young people today, those [14:07] under 30, find it extremely difficult to [14:09] buy a house relying solely on their own [14:12] income; therefore, once property became [14:14] the main form of family wealth, the [14:16] children's generation could not surpass [14:18] their parents. [14:19] >> Right, right, that’s true. [14:20] >> You can’t surpass your parents, no [14:22] matter how hard you work. [14:23] >> Even if your salary is very high, you [14:26] won't necessarily surpass your parents, [14:28] which is why we see this 40%figure. [14:32] But there is a bigger situation that’s [14:34] even more concerning; a French friend of [14:37] mine recently came back, and he is the [14:39] only Asian, or Chinese, person in a [14:41] high-level administrative position at a [14:44] European university. [14:47] I asked when young people in Europe [14:50] started feeling that tomorrow wouldn't [14:52] be better, and he said after the 1990s. [14:56] >> Hmm. [14:58] >> He said after the 90s, young people in [15:01] Europe didn't think about whether the [15:03] world would be better in 20 years; they [15:05] realized, "I won't be able to live like [15:08] my parents did." [15:12] " [15:12] >> I can't have a house like theirs; they [15:14] aren't rich people, you know." [15:18] " [15:18] >> They aren't business people; they were [15:20] just professionals who finished [15:22] university, and by the time they reached [15:24] their 50s or 60s, they generally had two [15:27] homes—one in the city and one in the [15:29] suburbs." [15:31] However, young people in their twenties [15:34] or thirties today feel they won't have [15:36] this by the time they get old, nor do I [15:38] have the luxury to hand one of these [15:40] houses down to my children. [15:43] You have two sons waiting for you; think [15:45] about it, how can you live better than [15:48] your parents did? [15:49] >> But just think about how you... [15:52] >> Can your children expect to live the way [15:54] you do? This is a global issue, this is [15:58] a... [15:58] >> Just listen, let me ask you: look at our [16:01] kids—no, no, you and Iron Man's kids are [16:05] so adorable, seven and five years old. [16:08] Of course, let's not talk about [16:10] conditions in Northern Europe; let's say [16:13] it's in China, then... [16:15] >> People see that Iron Man has a great job [16:18] , earns good money, and you have [16:20] property and savings. [16:21] >> In the future, when the child grows up, [16:23] the money they earn might only allow [16:26] them to live a, let's say, rather [16:28] ordinary life. So, for example, if they [16:30] want to pursue their ideals, continue [16:32] their education, or even just drift for [16:34] a few years. Even until they're 30. But [16:37] you clearly have the means to support [16:39] them. Will you support them? [16:41] >> Support them. Just now, Professor [16:44] Zongdong said, I might not necessarily [16:46] leave a house for my son, right? I’ve [16:48] also discussed with Iron Man that we [16:50] might not be able to do what our parents [16:52] did, but...I want to give him the [16:54] opportunity to choose. My point is, if [16:56] he says, "I want a house today," I might [16:59] not be able to give it, but if you tell [17:01] me, "I'm a bit short on money, I want to [17:03] study abroad, or I want to drift for a [17:06] few years," as long as you're not just [17:08] staying home, I...I hope my efforts now [17:10] can give you the opportunity to choose. [17:12] Logically speaking, they should create [17:14] these opportunities themselves. [17:16] >> Right, you should support yourself or [17:18] whatever, but I think that’s why I [17:20] mentioned "living off one's parents." [17:21] >> It’s reasonable to build upon the [17:24] foundation you’ve been given, but if you [17:26] mean relying on it entirely, then I [17:28] don't think that's okay. If he says he's [17:31] coming back to take care of me, I don't [17:33] want that. After I had children, I [17:35] studied psychology. [17:36] >> Had children and studied psychology, [17:38] there must be a psychological issue [17:39] there, having children. Because you know [17:41] , I'm terrified that one day—since [17:43] parents are like this, right, this love [17:45] is so intense—but have you thought that [17:47] by giving so much love, one day you have [17:49] to let them go, right? And it’s best if [17:51] they don't even look back. Just like a [17:53] bird spreading its wings to fly high, [17:55] right? It just leaves us. [17:57] >> Yes, not looking back and not being [17:59] attached, that is what successful [18:01] education is, right? So, you have to [18:03] accept this sense of parting, right? I [18:06] don't—I don't want to use my tears or my [18:08] own potential psychological issues to [18:10] make them feel guilty, thinking I [18:12] shouldn't have left, I shouldn't have [18:14] flown away, I shouldn't have gone so far [18:16] , and that I should always be coming [18:19] home. No, my feeling is that I need to [18:21] be independent myself. And then, let you [18:24] fly very comfortably, right? That's why [18:27] I say I studied psychology. If you want [18:29] to come back, then, as I said before, [18:31] it's not a matter of money; it's purely [18:34] about having a clean relationship. If [18:36] you truly feel that our home brings you [18:38] mental happiness and support, and you [18:41] want to come back, then we certainly [18:43] will. [18:43] >> What if they don't want to work? [18:46] >> Will you keep supporting them? [18:47] >> So the values we need to cultivate now [18:50] are—you know, I lived at home until I [18:52] was 27 before I left to live in Hong [18:54] Kong. Before that, I didn't think there [18:57] was any problem with a girl living at [18:59] home until 27; I wasn't married. But [19:01] when I got to Hong Kong and now abroad, [19:04] when people hear I lived at home until [19:06] 27, everyone is in disbelief, saying, " [19:09] Why did you stay so long? 27, not 12, [19:12] right?" Then I said, "What's the problem [19:14] ? It's very normal in Asia." They said, [19:17] but if you don't leave—that is, if the [19:19] bird doesn't fly out of the nest—you [19:21] don't know the situation outside, you [19:22] don't know your own strength. In other [19:24] words, these children at home are very [19:26] comfortable, and everyone gets what they [19:28] need, right? But I think you will forget [19:31] your own abilities. You will not have [19:33] the opportunity to experience setbacks. [19:35] >> Only when you have the ability can you [19:37] actually dare to have your next home. [19:40] Because many full-time children now face [19:42] the problem that when they go out, it's [19:45] not as beautiful as they imagined, with [19:47] opportunities for training or expressing [19:50] themselves. [19:52] They think, "I don't have that; I'm [19:55] suffering, getting scolded by the boss, [19:59] working 996, earning low wages." [20:03] It's also different from the previous [20:05] generation, as we've entered what's [20:07] called a risk society over the past ten [20:09] years or so. [20:12] >> In the past, there was a predictable [20:14] path; you’d enter a field and know [20:17] roughly how much you could earn at each [20:19] stage. Now, that’s gone. Every three or [20:23] four years, there’s some storm or [20:25] economic collapse. They face all sorts [20:28] of pressures, and there’s a ninety [20:31] percent chance that after a few years of [20:33] working, their personality ends up more [20:35] twisted than yours, right? [20:38] You talk about seeing a therapist or [20:40] studying psychology—they’re twisted, and [20:43] that’s not even mentioning the physical [20:45] toll. It’s truly painful and a massive [20:48] struggle for them. So, from that [20:51] perspective, if parents have the means [20:53] to ease their children's hardships, I [20:55] personally don't see any problem with it [20:58] . [20:58] However, the reality is that there [21:01] really aren't many good options out [21:03] there. Exactly. [21:05] >> This is definitely a cause for concern. [21:08] When I see some of these reports, I get [21:10] this image in my head—like something [21:13] from a contemporary painting—of a lonely [21:16] little boy in the Nordic wilderness, [21:18] completely desolate, essentially being a [21:21] full-time child at home. Actually, it’s [21:24] mostly because they can't find an ideal [21:26] job; that’s the biggest problem. No one [21:29] really thinks this is a long-term [21:31] solution, but then you hear them say one [21:34] thing. They say, if they’re going to be [21:37] gaslighted by some unreliable boss [21:39] anyway, they might as well be gaslighted [21:41] by their parents. But I think, aren’t [21:44] they already being gaslighted by taking [21:46] their parents' money? I think this [21:48] exposes a lot of things deep within [21:51] human nature. If you don't take your [21:53] parents 'money. The way your parents [21:56] treat you keeps a certain boundary. Once [21:59] you take their money, or they support [22:01] you, or pay your mortgage, the way they [22:03] treat you—the level of intensity—is [22:06] completely different. [22:07] >> Right? Where are you going to go? So [22:10] some young people swear, "I'll never [22:12] take their money again, I'm done taking [22:15] their money." But when they end up [22:16] taking the money again the following [22:18] month, they feel terrible. Many parents [22:20] , when giving money, start nagging: " [22:21] Why haven't you found a boyfriend yet?" [22:23] "What are you doing? What's wrong with [22:25] you?""We're getting old, don't you need [22:27] to leave us a child, a grandchild?""And [22:29] you're just drifting around all day; [22:31] what do you think you're doing?""You [22:32] could choose not to listen." But on one [22:34] hand, you still have to take their money [22:36] . And on the other hand? They lecture [22:39] you every single day. Oh, when I think [22:42] about these kids, these young people, [22:44] it’s really tough. [22:45] >> Living at home means you're under your [22:48] parents' financial shelter and [22:50] protection. [22:54] It's different when parents help with a [22:56] mortgage; I see that as supporting their [22:59] children's independence. [23:06] That’s clear-cut, as it’s for building [23:09] equity and future assets, unlike hiding [23:11] at home to avoid the world's challenges [23:14] . [23:17] When you think about it, our lives are [23:19] essentially composed of two currencies. [23:22] One currency is money. And what is the [23:26] other currency? Time. [23:35] Looking back at their youth and middle [23:38] age, people’s biggest regret is seeing [23:40] everyone in the subways and streets just [23:43] trading their time for a meager living. [23:52] >> So, looking back, I completely agree [23:55] with the values you just mentioned. [23:59] >> Parents want their children to succeed, [24:02] to be independent and strong, which is [24:04] worth supporting. [24:10] But to be more abstract, philosophically [24:13] speaking, if you do something not out of [24:16] interest or meaning, but only for profit [24:19] , you're trading time for money—avoid it [24:22] if you can. [24:27] >> There’s a paradox in that, which is very [24:30] difficult to prove, you know? [24:33] The so-called "meaning" of work and [24:36] finding one's interests. [24:39] Sometimes you have to be more abstract; [24:42] you have to find it through hardship. [24:46] You can't just say, "I'll take two years [24:49] off." [24:50] >> Sitting at home thinking about what to [24:53] do, calculating your interests and [24:55] abilities for two years, then trying to [24:58] go out—it’s very difficult. Those of us [25:01] who have worked for decades know this. [25:05] You never know where the first step will [25:07] lead you—to the second, then the third. [25:12] I often tell young people who ask me [25:15] about job choices that I always remind [25:18] them of this. [25:21] You should look for a job that can lead [25:23] you to the next step. [25:27] Of course, I’m talking ideals; often we [25:30] don't know, so sometimes you just take [25:32] the first job that comes. [25:37] You might indeed be exploited or [25:39] underpaid at first. [25:42] But within that experience, you discover [25:44] where your talents lie. You learn skills [25:47] , and you find new opportunities. [25:50] I did a very boring job for ten months, [25:53] and on the first day of the 11th month, [25:56] I suddenly met a partner. [25:59] I learned a lot from them, and they [26:01] talked about developing a project and [26:03] asked me to collaborate. [26:05] You never know, you really never know. [26:08] >> This is a very positive outlook on life [26:11] . [26:13] >> It means you can't just talk about [26:15] whether you're interested or whether [26:17] what you're doing is meaningful. [26:19] It might look like I have no interest [26:22] and no sense of purpose, as if I'm only [26:24] doing it for a bit of money, but it [26:26] could turn into something. For example, [26:29] working as a ticket collector at a movie [26:31] theater, right? After ten months of [26:33] collecting tickets, I learned how to [26:36] write short stories. You really don't [26:38] know that life is an accumulation. I [26:41] believe that since I left home for Hong [26:43] Kong at 27, the time I spent in Hong [26:45] Kong was, looking back, the lowest point [26:48] of my life. But without that... [26:50] >> Hong Kong was your low point? [26:52] >> Really. [26:53] >> Is it? What do you take me for? What do [26:56] you take us for? So that was the low [26:58] point of your life? [26:59] >> No, but it really was the parent company [27:02] , yeah. But it's just that I hit my [27:05] lowest point, and looking back now, I [27:07] genuinely feel that without all of that [27:10] ...Life needs a story to be exciting, [27:13] right? Your story can't always be at a [27:16] high, so I think you have to go out and [27:19] explore, and you have to hit those lows [27:22] . It's just like playing a game and [27:24] passing levels. In a game, if you die, [27:27] you just turn it back on the next day [27:28] and you're alive again. Back to full [27:31] health. [27:31] >> Back to full health, exactly. Everything [27:33] is just a matter of perspective. [27:35] >> You-Ting, using the gaming analogy is [27:37] great. Gaming... [27:38] >> Speaking of your hobby. [27:40] >> There's a key element in gaming: [27:42] unlocking. Right. [27:43] >> Unlocking, unlocking new abilities or [27:46] weapons. It's very difficult to just sit [27:49] at home and suddenly have achievements, [27:52] abilities, or dreams unlocked. It's hard [27:55] . You have to be out there colliding [27:58] with things, even when you're at your [28:00] so-called lowest and most difficult [28:02] point, that's when a certain part of you [28:05] can unlock. [28:07] But when talking about full-time [28:09] daughters, let's not forget there's a [28:12] large group of people who want to be [28:14] full-time daughters but have no way, no [28:17] ability, no such parents, and no [28:19] conditions. [28:21] I hear from some young friends that [28:23] there's actually a significant conflict [28:25] between these two groups. Seeing my [28:27] friends or besties go back home to be a [28:30] full-time daughter, hey, I want that too [28:32] , okay? I want it too, but I don't have [28:35] it. My parents don't have the money, so [28:38] this kind of complaint is actually a [28:40] form of humblebragging. Right. [28:42] >> No, in a sense, this kind of complaint [28:45] also shows that social wealth is [28:47] increasing. You have to admit that in an [28:49] absolute sense, compared to when we were [28:51] young, wouldn't you say the percentage [28:53] of people who don't have to worry about [28:55] food and clothing is much higher? Didn't [28:57] China solve poverty? Right? So, just [29:00] like what was said before, you just add [29:02] an extra pair of chopsticks when you [29:03] come home for dinner. It's like the [29:05] concept in Japan called "parasite [29:07] singles." [29:07] >> It refers to this group of people who [29:09] don't want to get married. However, they [29:11] live with their parents, and their main [29:13] living expenses are covered by them, [29:15] while they just do some part-time work [29:17] for their own pocket money. Many people [29:19] in Japan live like this their whole [29:21] lives. This is a lifestyle, a symbiosis [29:25] with parents, you know? [29:27] Now, some parents are actually quite [29:30] interesting too. They say, "I don't want [29:33] my child to go out and suffer. If you [29:35] want to work, go work, but if you stay [29:37] here, that's fine too. My pension is [29:39] enough to support you." [29:41] >> Giving them a choice, right? But within [29:44] this dynamic, besides the conflicts [29:46] between groups, and some envy, jealousy [29:49] , and resentment, [29:50] >> Right. [29:51] >> We should also note that "shared family [29:53] " life can have different ways of [29:56] functioning. [29:57] It doesn't have to be just you acting as [30:00] my domestic helper; we can plan things [30:02] together. [30:04] Certain things, especially in the [30:06] internet age—I know in Hong Kong, where [30:08] life is perhaps too difficult and [30:10] everyone is looking for ways to make [30:12] money, some families live together with [30:14] their adult children and run an online [30:16] shop. It's quite fun; they wholesale [30:19] some small items. [30:20] >> The parents and the daughter—the parents [30:22] don't understand how the platform works [30:25] , but they have the capital. [30:26] >> The daughter understands. Instead of [30:29] being my full-time daughter at home, [30:32] don't just sit around. [30:34] You're my daughter, but you can also be [30:36] my business partner. [30:38] We'll start a small online shop, and [30:41] I'll cover the costs. What else do many [30:44] Hong Kong families do? The daughter [30:46] stays home and helps trade stocks. Or [30:48] property speculation. You have the time [30:51] , but Mom doesn't. You have the time to [30:53] go check out properties every day, which [30:55] is Hong Kong people's favorite activity [30:57] —house hunting. Going to look at [30:59] properties and browsing online every [31:01] single day. In this current climate, [31:04] parents would surely tell you to take a [31:06] break and go house hunting. [31:08] >> Real estate is a no-go for now, [31:11] >> let's take a break. [31:12] >> Hey, this is fun. You know, because Hong [31:15] Kong's real estate market has been [31:17] sluggish for two years, everyone still [31:19] wants to invest and make money, so doing [31:21] this is quite fun. I look for fixed-term [31:23] deposits at banks. Because every bank [31:26] has different interest rates, and they [31:28] change every day, every single day. [31:30] >> Hey, you kids keep an eye on it for me. [31:32] Check the rates for me daily. If Bank [31:35] A's rate goes up from 3.6 to 3.7 for a [31:38] two-month term, tell me immediately, and [31:41] I'll move that money over. If tomorrow [31:44] another bank hits 3.8, I'll move the [31:46] money there. It's fun, I've been playing [31:49] with it. [31:50] >> You've been playing with it? Which bank [31:53] ? Let me tell you, in Hong Kong, I [31:56] actually earned some interest. [31:58] A bank financial manager told me that if [32:01] you convert your money into British [32:03] pounds, the interest rate for these two [32:06] months seems higher than what you get [32:08] with HKD. [32:09] Anyway, it's higher, I don't really get [32:12] it, but the interest is high. I [32:14] deposited a little bit, and it turned [32:16] out to be true, but they are all [32:18] short-term, just one or two months. You [32:21] know, when I saw this trick was good, I [32:23] felt like I was almost financially free [32:25] , right? I thought, maybe I’ll just stop [32:27] working and do this instead, wouldn't [32:29] that be nice? So every day, bang, I made [32:32] a bold decision and just, bang, invested [32:35] the money. [32:35] >> Invested it, but you know, since we work [32:38] all the time, my mind, [32:39] >> Hmm, [32:40] >> had long forgotten about it. [32:42] >> Had long forgotten, and then, [32:44] >> one day, I checked my account and there [32:46] were only a few dollars left. [32:48] >> Ah! [32:49] >> How could that be? [32:51] >> It was my savings account. [32:52] >> Oh. [32:53] >> Oh, it scared me! You know, at least I [32:56] gained this experience—have you ever [32:59] experienced your money in the bank [33:01] suddenly becoming zero? [33:03] >> Wow, my mind just went blank, thinking, [33:07] "What do I do? Should I call the bank?" [33:10] >> Who are they? [33:11] >> I couldn't explain anything clearly. [33:13] >> Yeah, that whole day I was in a state of [33:16] —I felt like, oh my god, the sky had [33:18] gone dark. I really felt like everything [33:21] went black before my eyes; I was so [33:23] scared. [33:24] >> Tell us the ending quickly, it’s too [33:26] stressful! [33:27] >> The ending is that I had moved all the [33:29] money from my original account into that [33:31] one-month term deposit. [33:33] >> I switched to a different account. I [33:35] didn't really understand it, but when [33:37] you check the savings account, it’s just [33:40] gone, you know? [33:41] This whole thing just proves I'm a [33:44] novice; it gave me quite a fright. [33:47] Their strategy is to lure money away [33:49] from other banks by offering high [33:51] interest for three months, but then you [33:53] have to transfer it out in time after [33:56] three months; isn't that a hassle? [33:58] >> Right? You know, people are becoming [34:00] more and more forgetful these days. You [34:01] completely forget about things that [34:03] happened two months ago. [34:04] >> Ah, humblebragging again; that’s quite a [34:07] sum, I’ll rely on that for my retirement [34:10] . I thought I’d run into some kind of [34:13] scam. A fraud ring, you know. [34:16] You're just busy being important; many [34:18] of my friends and I enjoy this—when they [34:21] ask me what I've been busy with lately. [34:24] I tell them I'm busy filling out forms, [34:26] moving money here and there every day, [34:29] and I find it very satisfying, like I’ve [34:31] actually gained something. Banks have [34:34] had the upper hand for so many years [34:36] with low interest rates, but it's only [34:38] been high for two years, and now I’m [34:40] finally getting back at them. 3.8%here, [34:42] 3.85%there, then filling out a form for [34:45] 3.85%or 3.9%—just filling out forms. [34:47] Very, very happy. What is the financial [34:50] relationship like between parents and [34:52] children in Finland? [34:53] >> I'd say they don't want to. [34:56] >> Originally they didn't, but in the last [34:58] year or two, because the global economy [35:01] is really in bad shape, the news has [35:03] been constantly talking about how [35:05] Finnish children now need their parents [35:07] 'help to afford a home; this becoming a [35:10] news topic just shows it's a new trend, [35:12] right? [35:13] >> Meaning in the past... [35:15] >> It will quickly become a universal value [35:17] . Yes. But what I find interesting is [35:20] their final conclusion. In Finland, you [35:23] can't just buy or live in government [35:25] housing whenever you want. [35:29] In many communities, they might [35:31] designate a specific building to be [35:33] rented or sold only to artists; you need [35:36] proof from a music conservatory or [35:38] performance credentials to buy into that [35:40] building, and even within a single [35:42] building in a good area, some floors [35:44] might be reserved for people below a [35:46] certain income level, and the price [35:48] isn't set by market value. [35:54] >> It's not the same building as the [35:56] artists' one, no; artists are artists, [35:58] but if you look at it from a drone's [36:01] perspective, you can tell that in their [36:03] planning, they intended to mix different [36:06] types of people together. [36:08] >> So you wouldn't know which is which; you [36:11] wouldn't walk by and say, "This is where [36:13] the poor live," right? No. And also, he [36:15] ...and for...he wants to let wealthy [36:17] people live here too, because they [36:19] believe that once anyone connects with [36:21] the community, they will become invested [36:24] . Once you identify with it, you want to [36:26] build it, or some children with, let's [36:27] say, better resources, will have better [36:29] development, and they will influence the [36:31] kids around them because you're all [36:33] playing in the same school, right? So he [36:35] means that, in this way, we can all [36:37] improve together. [36:39] >> Professor Xu, let me ask you a question [36:41] . [36:41] >> This is a big, philosophical question. [36:45] >> Is financial independence a prerequisite [36:47] for mental independence? Is it [36:49] impossible to have mental independence [36:51] without financial independence? [36:53] >> There are certainly a few exceptions, [36:55] but in general, that should be the case [36:57] . [36:57] >> So which one must come first? [36:59] >> Ah. [37:00] >> Which independence leads to the next? [37:02] >> It is generally believed that without [37:03] financial independence, [37:04] >> you cannot have mental independence. [37:06] >> Is it possible to have mental [37:07] independence? What do you think? [37:09] >> But what is the meaning of this [37:10] independence? Given everything we've [37:12] just said, I feel we’ve set the bar very [37:15] high, like needing a house or having a [37:17] certain level of income, but. If I just [37:19] —we just mentioned that the Finnish [37:21] government gives a lot of money, they [37:22] give what is very basic, meaning they [37:24] won't let you spend more than you have. [37:26] >> I was just about to ask, how much can a [37:28] mother receive? [37:29] >> Yes, yes, yes. [37:30] >> First-time mother. [37:31] >> First-time mother, all added up. [37:33] >> The first child, not the first mother, [37:34] becoming a mother for the first time. [37:36] >> Around 600 Euros. [37:37] >> A month? [37:39] >> A month. [37:40] >> 600, that’s equivalent to about 5,000 [37:41] Hong Kong dollars, five or six thousand [37:43] dollars. [37:43] >> Yes. [37:44] >> Well, that's not bad. [37:46] >> Have a few more, and you're set [37:47] financially. But it doesn't mean 600 [37:49] Euros becomes 1,200 Euros for the second [37:51] ; it's not that kind of addition, right [37:52] , it doesn't mean having ten kids gets [37:54] you 60,000. [37:55] >> No, no, no, no, no, no, that's not it. [37:57] >> Then you'd just be a baby-making machine [38:00] , busy doing just one thing every day. [38:02] >> Europeans seeing this Chinese way of [38:05] calculating. [38:06] >> It’s not like that, there are many [38:09] details, so no. [38:11] It touches on the issue that parents [38:14] supporting their children—I really think [38:16] when everyone talks about the economic [38:18] downturn, I tend to look on the bright [38:20] side, and I think, after all, parents do [38:23] have some money in their hands. [38:26] This is completely different from when [38:28] my parents gave me 50 yuan for a month [38:30] or a semester during college, which [38:33] wasn't even enough for food. That's [38:35] totally different. You see, I ran into a [38:37] friend the other day, a married couple, [38:39] and I noticed how much the mother was [38:41] planning for their child. She came up to [38:43] me and said, "Look, my husband makes [38:44] tens of thousands a month, and I take a [38:46] few thousand every month to buy [38:48] insurance for our child." Then she said [38:50] her husband wanted to invest in some [38:52] property, and she told him that he had [38:54] to put the child's name on it. She said [38:56] , "I even forced my husband to write a [38:58] will recently, you know that?""You can't [39:00] leave it to your parents; it has to be [39:02] for our child.""I'm worried about [39:04] inheritance taxes, so I want to leave it [39:06] to our child. I think a mother should be [39:07] able to worry about her child." Later, [39:09] the husband said, "I can't just ignore [39:12] my parents in the future, right?" She [39:14] said, "At most, write that if your [39:16] parents have financial difficulties, our [39:18] child can help them out." Anyway, [39:20] hearing all these things was actually [39:22] quite funny. It made me realize that [39:24] even if you're just a middle-income [39:26] family. I mean, if a mother plans as [39:29] meticulously as this, actually, as long [39:31] as your child isn't extravagant. She's [39:34] planning everything, even retirement [39:36] insurance for the child, calculating how [39:39] much the child will receive from the [39:41] bank each month years later. [39:43] I started to think about the possibility [39:46] that they could get by without working, [39:48] as long as they aren't extravagant, by [39:50] relying on the finances their parents [39:52] arranged. [39:53] >> They could, but they wouldn't be happy, [39:55] would they? [39:56] >> That is the key point. I'm saying that, [39:59] looking at the data, it's really [40:01] different from our generation; most of [40:04] them receive some form of financial [40:06] support from their parents. That's not a [40:09] small amount. [40:10] >> The times are different. [40:13] If you look at our age group, having [40:15] gone through years of economic [40:17] development, we've all accumulated some [40:19] wealth to a certain degree. [40:22] From the perspective of the next [40:24] generation, isn't there talk of " [40:26] sharing"? I mean, regarding having kids [40:29] , why... [40:30] >> I, I want... [40:32] >> Bike sharing. [40:33] >> Do we want shared prosperity? Common [40:36] prosperity. [40:37] >> That's good enough. [40:38] >> Right, don't look at it from the child's [40:40] perspective. You have the perspective of [40:42] the children, but I'm not asking for all [40:44] the money right now. I, and as for the [40:46] difficulties I'm facing out there as we [40:49] just discussed, I'm in trouble now, and [40:51] I really don't necessarily have to rely [40:54] on that "sharing" of yours, but the [40:56] question is, what are you supposed to do [40:58] after you share? [41:00] I have a friend whose children rely [41:02] primarily on the family, but his kids [41:05] have taken on a very important [41:07] responsibility that I think is great: [41:09] planning their family trips every year, [41:11] going out two or three times to places [41:14] that are harder to visit. [41:18] The kids plan the itinerary, book the [41:21] flights and hotels, allowing their [41:23] parents to enjoy a wonderful, happy [41:25] journey outside of their busy work lives [41:28] . [41:30] I think this is also very good; life has [41:33] some really great periods, and what else [41:36] is a family for? [41:40] The kids are responsible for planning [41:43] the dining and cuisine—deciding which [41:45] restaurant to go to on the weekend and [41:47] what to eat—which allows parents who [41:50] lack the knowledge or time to plan to [41:52] enrich their own lives. [41:55] So, children aren't just taking for free [41:58] ; they bring back a quite rich and [42:01] beautiful life for their parents. [42:04] The point isn't just about what teachers [42:06] say—whether children shouldn't be [42:08] working or living at home, or whether [42:11] parents should pamper them. [42:14] Every family has its own circumstances; [42:17] the key is, given those conditions, can [42:20] you make full use of them to enrich the [42:22] lives of both generations? [42:25] >> I think this [42:26] >> has a greater impact on the younger [42:28] generation, which is instead being [42:30] overlooked. Right now, we talk more from [42:33] the parents 'perspective: as long as I [42:35] have the money, why shouldn't I... [42:40] Spend it on your children however you [42:42] like; what's wrong with that? [42:44] But the problem is, for the younger [42:47] generation, the impact is very profound [42:50] . [42:51] Think back carefully: how you view your [42:53] parents when you are young and how you [42:56] evaluate them will affect the younger [42:58] generation's basic view of society. [43:01] >> Truly. [43:03] >> It will affect their fundamental [43:05] worldview. [43:07] In the last few decades, many [43:09] protagonists in literature have been [43:12] young boys. [43:15] Their attitude toward their fathers has [43:17] changed. To summarize simply, it's pity [43:21] . [43:23] These young people realize they can't [43:25] rely on their parents, that their [43:27] parents are actually quite pitiable, and [43:30] they also find their parents to be loyal [43:32] and simple. [43:36] So I've discovered a thread: whether in [43:39] novels or in real life, how you judge [43:41] your father basically defines that young [43:44] person's own worldview. [43:47] >> Yes. [43:48] >> It's that your father has been wronged [43:51] by society. We often—I reflect on myself [43:53] , and I was the same—when we see our [43:56] fathers as pitiful, we didn't think they [43:58] were pitiful back then; back then we [44:00] just blamed them, thinking, "Why are you [44:03] so useless?""Why are you standing in [44:05] this position at this moment?""Standing [44:07] here at this time, when you clearly [44:09] could have had a higher position; why?" [44:11] After all these years, however many [44:13] years have passed, you realize you're [44:14] repeating the past, walking in your [44:16] father's footsteps, and only then do you [44:18] learn to respect your poor father. [44:19] >> Mm. [44:20] >> Respect your own poor father. That’s a [44:24] young person’s positive worldview. [44:26] >> That’s very profound. [44:28] >> That’s really deep. [44:30] >> Your current situation of staying at [44:32] home for two more years is related, but [44:34] not entirely the same thing. Also, if [44:37] you stay home for two more years by [44:38] choice, it means both sides get what [44:40] they need, and you stay happily, then [44:42] there’s the possibility Teacher Wang [44:44] mentioned, even new creations and [44:46] infinite potential. But if it turns into [44:48] resentment, feeling forced to stay [44:49] because the outside world is awful and [44:51] you have to rely on your parents, and [44:53] your mother is unhappy about giving, [44:55] then that creates new family conflicts. [44:57] I found that after I moved out, my [44:59] relationship with my mother improved a [45:01] lot, right? Because once there's [45:03] distance, everything...I believe more [45:04] and more in a relationship as pure as [45:06] water. [45:06] >> Is your mother-daughter relationship [45:08] with your mom like water now? [45:09] >> Yes, because before we were too close; [45:11] she had to know exactly what time I got [45:13] home. [45:13] >> She had to have a say in what I wore. [45:15] Right, and even if it was 11:59, she’d [45:17] come out and say, "Didn't you say you'd [45:19] be home by 12?" I’d say, "Isn't it 11:59 [45:22] right now? Do you have to be so precise [45:24] ?" Then I’d just go to sleep. So, is it [45:26] just because of that one sentence? Daily [45:28] life is just all these little things, [45:30] and you realize you just can't... [45:31] >> It’s the warmth of Chinese society, with [45:34] a lot of resistance; girls her age are [45:36] all like this. Hey, why do you think [45:39] mothers are like that? [45:41] >> She’s afraid her daughter will suffer [45:43] ... [45:44] What, going home? [45:46] >> Lots of worries, which is why you said [45:48] economic independence leads to mental [45:50] independence, but I’ve been wondering— [45:52] is that really true? Is it? Because what [45:54] I want for my child isn't necessarily [45:56] economic independence; I study [45:58] psychology to enrich myself because I [46:00] just hope she’s mentally independent, [46:02] because I feel that only a mentally [46:04] independent child...... [46:06] >> can be economically independent? [46:08] >> Right, she’ll be able to withstand all [46:10] the setbacks outside and still feel that [46:12] she is capable. I won’t hide away [46:14] forever. I can hide, but I won’t hide my [46:16] whole life; I’ll hide for a bit, take a [46:19] break. Just as you said, recharged and [46:21] ready, then I’ll head out again. So what [46:23] I want for him is economic independence [46:25] . This line of thought is also quite [46:27] interesting; without spiritual [46:28] independence, your economic independence [46:30] won't ultimately be independent either, [46:32] meaning your personality can't truly be [46:33] independent. [46:34] >> Because you rely on it. Spiritual [46:36] independence is very important, but it [46:39] must be built on a foundation: your [46:41] economic demands cannot be too high. [46:44] >> Didn't Lu Xun say in "Regret for the [46:46] Past" that love must be based on [46:48] something? [46:48] >> Yes, that part in "The Chess Master" [46:50] says it best, where he says we live for [46:53] chess, not for a living. There is a [46:55] contradiction in it. First, it talks [46:57] about Wang Yisheng playing chess, saying [46:59] that once he plays, he doesn't need to [47:01] eat. He says, "No, that's not right, I [47:03] still need to eat," and he is actually [47:05] very particular about his food. But [47:07] people ask, "Since you live for chess [47:10] and not for a living, why do you pursue [47:13] this?" He just says, "Then your desire [47:15] for a living cannot be too strong." [47:17] Turning this back to your situation, it [47:19] means your child should have his own [47:21] opinions. But to have these opinions, [47:23] you cannot be too extravagant, and you [47:25] cannot have high economic demands. [47:27] >> Because [47:28] >> If your economic demands are too high, [47:30] it is very hard to maintain your ideals [47:32] . [47:33] >> Sorry to cut in, but you mentioned "The [47:35] Chess Master" by A Cheng, right? [47:38] >> I keep repeating this, because even [47:41] today I truly appreciate what A Cheng [47:43] said when we were eating together many [47:46] years ago. [47:48] I was talking about wanting to make [47:50] money and so on, and he said, "In any [47:52] case, the more money you make, the more [47:54] freedom you sacrifice for it. [47:57] You calculate that balance yourself." [48:00] >> Right? Later I realized it’s really like [48:04] that. If you don't earn much, you are [48:06] more free, but if you want to earn more [48:09] , you have to accept more constraints. [48:11] >> This can be summed up in four words: " [48:13] Freedom from desire leads to strength." [48:15] >> And "Desire leads to weakness," right? [48:17] Yes. We can't achieve total freedom from [48:19] desire, [48:20] >> but we just shouldn't let our desires [48:21] get too strong. That's it. [48:23] >> Because when you are spiritually [48:24] independent, your values become [48:25] diversified. [48:26] >> That is [48:27] >> This is a new perspective, interesting. [48:29] Spiritual in— [48:31] >> Your values become diversified; you no [48:33] longer use money as the sole measure of [48:35] good or bad. [48:36] >> Right, regardless of what the mainstream [48:38] society is today, you will have your own [48:40] , which means having strong opinions. So [48:42] , I give him that sense of spiritual [48:44] independence now. I hope, in my ideal, [48:46] when people ask what the definition of a [48:48] good son is, I say I have no definition [48:50] for a good son. Because you have a good [48:52] son, you place expectations on him. He [48:54] didn't choose this; you wanted him to [48:55] come into this world, he didn't choose [48:56] to come here, so there is no such thing [48:58] as raising children to provide for your [49:00] old age, none at all. Because I feel [49:01] it's just giving him a—it's like a magic [49:03] headband. Wherever he goes, if you carry [49:05] this idea, even if you don't say it, he [49:07] carries this curse, and he will never be [49:09] free his whole life. He won't go far; [49:10] just like I said before, he won't fly [49:12] far. So there is no "raising for old age [49:14] ," no—actually, the only thing I hope to [49:16] give you is that you can know what you [49:18] want to do, who you are, and what your [49:20] strengths are. And then choose something [49:22] you want; that value might not be my [49:23] value, it might not be society's value, [49:25] but if it's a value you believe you can [49:27] achieve or one you love, that is the [49:29] most important thing. So, I must first [49:31] become a spiritually independent parent [49:34] . [49:34] >> Right, right, see a psychologist first. [49:37] Yes, study psychology first. My [49:39] happiness is entirely reliant on the [49:41] child, I am now entirely— [49:43] >> First of all, you have to save yourself [49:46] ; you must be spiritually independent. [49:48] >> No, you—you then have to tell the "Iron [49:50] Man" that my financial independence is [49:53] an issue, you are responsible for it. [49:55] >> Then I wouldn't need to sit here. [49:58] I completely agree with what you said, [50:01] and the interesting thing can be [50:03] expressed in reverse. [50:06] Because when your values become diverse [50:09] , it is easier for you to be spiritually [50:11] independent. [50:14] >> If your values aren't diverse, and it's [50:17] always just "I want my life to [50:19] constantly satisfy my desires, I want to [50:21] pursue economic growth," then it's very [50:24] hard to be spiritually independent; you [50:26] will be led around by all sorts of [50:29] people and matters related to your [50:31] finances. [50:33] So you first— [50:36] Exactly, whether I'm an artist, or even [50:39] just an ordinary person who only knows [50:42] how to love food, as long as I have [50:44] important values within my own circle of [50:47] life, then I can also be spiritually [50:50] independent. [50:52] >> But I have a very strange feeling; the [50:54] people around me all seem to be good [50:57] parents. For instance, I know Mr. Hsu or [50:59] Chia who are always saying, "Oh, [51:01] whenever a father thinks of his daughter [51:03] , he feels sorry for her, that he didn't [51:06] give her enough." Look, all of you, [51:08] including Youting, are such [51:10] knowledgeable parents. Why do I feel [51:12] like the parents I come into contact [51:14] with are all quite good? But then, why [51:17] do I look online—because I want to [51:19] understand more—and see so many young [51:21] people reflecting on parent-child [51:23] relationships that are different from [51:25] what I see around me? Sometimes you [51:27] really feel like they're enemies, or [51:30] you're just confused, and I can [51:32] understand that. Take Eileen Chang and [51:34] her mother, for example; oh my, they [51:36] would settle every cent of their money [51:39] clearly. And honestly, let me ask you: [51:42] when your mother says she’s protecting [51:44] her daughter, is it actually a way for [51:47] her to satisfy herself? [51:49] >> Is it that you’ve become her entire [51:51] spiritual world? Is she satisfying her [51:54] own desire for control? Is it because [51:56] the parents' lives are too empty? They [51:58] have to grasp onto something; do you [52:00] know what some parents are like now? [52:02] They complain about their children while [52:04] watching them, thinking, "You have no [52:05] choice, you have to rely on us, right?" [52:07] Aren't we giving you money? But since we [52:10] give you money, it seems we can treat [52:12] you like a show you had to perform as a [52:14] child, always using you as a topic. And [52:16] you still have to listen. Many young [52:19] people are in this kind of relationship [52:21] , thinking, "Once I make my own money, [52:23] I'll cut ties and ignore them, right?"" [52:25] I won't have to listen to them." See, [52:27] with financial independence comes that [52:30] right. It’s so painful to think about, [52:32] hearing parents say, "We’re only doing [52:34] this for your own good." They say such [52:36] piercing words; every month when they [52:38] send money via WeChat, they attach a [52:40] whole essay with it. Yes. [52:42] >> But aren't parents supposed to love [52:44] their children? How did this turn into a [52:47] form of mental torture? [52:48] >> It’s that their spiritual independence [52:51] lacks diversity. It’s that they... [52:53] >> Parents, yes, it’s the parents... [52:56] >> Parents aren't diverse enough. They take [52:59] their own life standards—what they [53:01] believe is perfectly right—and use them [53:03] as a measuring stick, causing resentment [53:06] in their children, which in turn affects [53:08] how those children view society. [53:11] But what’s even worse? Sometimes, [53:13] children are listening to the scolding [53:15] and the criticisms......all while having [53:18] to admit that they are right. Exactly, [53:20] at thirty, you're still asking your [53:22] parents for money. You think to yourself [53:24] , it really is true, I haven't really [53:26] made it, you know? That's the most [53:28] painful part—you can't even say they're [53:30] wrong, can you? [53:31] >> This is a child raised by parents with [53:33] those kinds of values. For me, looking [53:35] at my child now, people always talk [53:37] about how physically exhausting it is to [53:40] raise kids or how hard it is to get [53:42] enough sleep, but the scariest thing [53:44] about parenting is that it forces me to [53:46] confront my greatest flaws when I’m [53:49] completely unprepared—things I didn't [53:51] want to know about myself, or things I [53:53] knew but refused to change. [53:56] >> In the beginning, my husband would often [53:59] say something whenever I got a bit [54:01] impatient with the kids; he’d say, " [54:03] Look, you’re acting just like your [54:05] mother." [54:06] He tells me not to be like her to remind [54:09] me, because I’ve said I didn't want to [54:11] end up like her, but—anyway, just cut [54:13] this part out, my mom won't see this, [54:16] she won't be bothered. [54:18] >> And right in that moment, it’s like he’s [54:21] lit a fuse, and I just explode. [54:23] >> I know there’s a fiery temper inside you [54:26] , um. [54:27] >> I would tell him that I know I have my [54:29] faults. [54:29] >> Why am I so impatient? That’s why I keep [54:32] studying psychology, to find the root [54:34] cause. I know I’m impatient because my [54:36] mother was also a rather impatient [54:38] person, right? But the upside is that it [54:40] makes you very efficient. [54:41] >> Yes, but of course, when it comes to [54:43] children, it’s usually more often a [54:44] negative thing. I know I have this [54:46] impatient side, and I know it’s a major [54:48] , major flaw of mine, but I probably [54:50] just didn't want to—or didn't know how [54:52] to—change it, because changing is [54:54] exhausting, so you just keep it hidden. [54:56] But then the child is right there, [54:58] they’re crying, and they need you. When [55:00] you suddenly run out of ways to handle [55:02] them, they remind me that I’m not [55:05] prepared, and suddenly I get impatient, [55:07] and I’m finished, I have no tricks left [55:10] , and then my true nature—the part I [55:12] least want to see—just comes out. [55:14] >> The reptilian brain takes over. [55:16] >> Yes, it comes out, and once it does, I’m [55:18] reminded again that this is actually [55:20] what your parents gave to you. So every [55:22] time my child reminds me of this, I tell [55:23] myself that I must be prepared before I [55:25] can face them, so I have to practice [55:26] self-discipline every day, I practice [55:28] every day, that is, every... [55:29] >> You shouldn't be studying psychology; [55:31] you should be chanting the Heart Sutra. [55:33] >> Many mothers have told me this. [55:35] >> But I feel that it really has to come [55:37] from within your heart. He really isn't [55:41] yours. When I'm conscious and aware of [55:43] what I'm doing, I'm very careful with my [55:46] word choice. [55:47] When I talk to people, I constantly [55:50] remind myself not to say "my child." No [55:53] , like I said, it’s Iron Man Brothers, [55:55] just Iron Man Brothers, he has a name. [55:57] >> His name, or whatever, try your best, [56:00] you... [56:00] >> Iron Man Brothers says he's a brother. [56:04] >> Wouldn't that mess up the generations? [56:06] >> This is my husband's brother. Right, so [56:09] I try to avoid any sense of ownership. I [56:12] have to be careful with my own phrasing [56:15] . [56:15] >> Wow, that concept is really interesting [56:17] . [56:17] >> Because the words you use eventually [56:19] seep into your subconscious. [56:20] >> Yes, language shapes reality. [56:22] >> Exactly. And another thing is, I chose [56:25] to leave the work environment for seven [56:27] years. I know, I know many people call [56:30] this a sacrifice or whatever, but I [56:32] strictly remind myself: absolutely not. [56:34] This isn't a sacrifice; it's my choice, [56:37] and I'm happy. I ask myself every day, " [56:40] Am I happy?" If I'm not happy, we need [56:42] to change our approach. You can't take [56:44] that resentment out on the child and say [56:46] , "If it weren't for your birth, I [56:48] wouldn't have left this job." I believe [56:50] my mom also quit her nursing job after [56:53] giving birth to me, and I believe she [56:55] was willing, voluntary. Look at that, [56:58] you've replicated your mother. [57:00] >> Don't talk about me like that. [57:01] >> Is this sometimes an inescapable fate? [57:04] >> Let me tell you. We were doing a [57:06] psychology exercise the other day, and [57:08] the teacher said life has 12 suitcases. [57:10] Please think about it. If everyone [57:12] thinks about it, pick a number between [57:14] zero and 18. I picked, I picked six. I [57:16] didn't know what the teacher was [57:17] planning, then they said, "Okay, how did [57:19] six-year-old you feel about trust?" What [57:20] was your definition of a boyfriend? How [57:22] would I know? But this psychology [57:24] student said, "Trust your intuition, [57:25] imagine you're six right now, sitting [57:27] there. What is a boyfriend to you?" And [57:29] then? Marriage and whatever, so I just [57:31] wrote it down. After I finished writing [57:33] , the teacher asked us to pick a [57:34] psychological...Anyway, I'll say this, [57:36] sometimes when I take these classes, I’m [57:38] a bit guarded. I think to myself, I [57:39] don't want to tell you anything too deep [57:41] . I don't want to be analyzed by the [57:43] teacher; I don't want to spill my guts [57:44] because I'm afraid I'll have a breakdown [57:46] . So, I just picked one from inside. I [57:48] feel the safest thing is marriage, [57:50] because I'm doing okay right now, [57:51] haven't gotten divorced, right? I [57:53] thought, "Hey, marriage is going pretty [57:55] well," so I picked "marriage" as my [57:56] topic. I said, "Hello teacher, let's [57:58] analyze marriage." He said, "Zhuting, [58:00] what is your definition of marriage?" I [58:02] said at six years old, my theme for [58:04] marriage was my father, and the teacher [58:06] continued to ask, what decision did you [58:07] make back then? You think the definition [58:10] of a good marriage, for six-year-old me [58:12] , was a housewife at home. And a husband [58:14] outside working hard. [58:16] >> You see, it's a pattern. [58:18] >> Then I started crying. The reason I [58:21] cried was because I thought, as a [58:23] stay-at-home mom, I was an educated [58:26] woman making an independent, [58:28] well-thought-out choice. But it turned [58:31] out no, it was still the influence of my [58:33] mother, you know. I don't know if you [58:36] understand me. I understand, I [58:38] understand so well, you can't escape it [58:40] , there's nowhere to hide. [58:42] >> It's not that I don't like it, I just [58:44] feel... [58:45] >> So, how young people view their parents [58:47] is how they view society, this is just [58:49] ... [58:50] >> It's really... [58:51] >> As you get older, you'll find yourself [58:53] becoming more and more like them. That's [58:55] why I need to... [58:56] >> And only then will you realize that the [58:58] minute your mother is after you, that is [59:00] motherly love. [59:01] >> I understand, but I also know that this [59:04] love can sometimes be a bit heavy. [59:06] >> Hmm. [59:07] >> So the best love is truly the so-called [59:10] ...so my life goal now, hmm... [59:12] >> My life coach told me to set a life goal [59:14] , and my life goal is that in this [59:17] lifetime, I must experience what it [59:19] feels like to give unconditional love. I [59:21] haven't felt it, even toward my husband [59:23] , I have to be honest. [59:25] >> Was your mother's love for you [59:26] conditional? [59:27] >> I don't think it was her fault or [59:29] anything, it was just her instinct. [59:31] >> Then with those two children of yours, [59:33] haven't you felt that you've given them [59:34] unconditional love? Giving it to them. [59:37] >> I'm afraid I have conditions, like I [59:39] said, if you give them tasks, I hope you [59:41] grow up with a definition of a good son [59:43] . I actually told my teacher, there is [59:45] no definition of a good son. But if [59:47] that's the case, who will satisfy you? [59:50] >> Ah, this is precisely that when you give [59:53] unconditionally, for every decision, you [59:56] only ask yourself, are you happy doing [59:59] this right now? Do you want to do this? [60:02] And after you do it, you feel so happy. [60:06] >> There are opportunities to open a [60:08] psychology school. [60:09] >> I am currently working as a life coach, [60:12] really. [60:13] >> He isn't, he isn't from a psychology [60:15] school; I think he could join a [60:16] charitable organization. Really, you and [60:19] this. [60:20] >> Then you mention, well, I actually had a [60:22] friend recently, we were doing mutual [60:24] counseling, and he told me about his [60:26] mother in Taiwan while he’s in the U.S. [60:28] He told me his mom in Taiwan calls him [60:29] every day saying, "I'll use my pension [60:31] to support you, you name your price." [60:33] >> Come back and keep me company. [60:35] >> Fine, just keep me company, you don't [60:37] even have to cook. Hmm. [60:39] >> I just need you to be with me, it’s like [60:41] someone hovering nearby, and it’s [60:43] actually become a huge shadow in my [60:45] friend's heart; he asks, why does my mom [60:47] look down on me so much? Why does she [60:49] think I’m incapable, and why—when I [60:51] clearly have such a great partner in the [60:53] U.S.—does she have to step on that, [60:55] because she feels if I return to Taiwan [60:56] , that partner wouldn't go with me; why [60:58] can't she let me be happy? Since he has [61:01] this inner conflict and he’s struggling [61:03] to move past it, that’s why we need to [61:05] properly... [61:05] >> Because his mother is suffering. [61:09] His first thought, which is natural, is [61:11] of course wondering why his mom looks [61:14] down on him. [61:15] I don’t want to give her the feeling [61:17] that I'm happy. [61:19] On the other hand, for his mother to [61:21] make such demands, if you turn it around [61:24] and think about it, it's as if she’s not [61:26] his mother but a child; when a child [61:29] says, "Please come back, please stay by [61:31] my side," that child is crying out, [61:34] calling for help, and your perspective [61:36] changes. [61:38] We are often quite sad regarding our [61:40] parents 'calls for help, and I even [61:42] underestimate them sometimes. [61:44] >> Or I just turn a deaf ear to them. [61:47] >> I occasionally remind myself to imagine [61:50] my mom’s request for help today—a very [61:53] small request, not asking for one or two [61:55] million. [61:56] " [61:56] >> I haven't had tea in a long time," as [61:59] Cantonese people say, or "no one to have [62:01] tea with me." I’d think, "Oh, I’m so [62:04] busy, I’m tired, it’s finally Sunday and [62:07] I want to rest." So I play a [62:09] psychological game of imagination; I [62:11] imagine that it’s not my mom, but a [62:14] child. [62:17] That little girl, and since you study [62:19] psychology, you’ve known for decades [62:22] that it’s popular to say we all have an [62:24] Adult, Parent, and Child within us. [62:28] We have them, we all have them. Right. [62:32] >> When my mom reaches out for help, I play [62:34] the game of imagining that my mom is now [62:37] a child, a little girl asking for help. [62:40] I need it, I want it; she needs him, she [62:43] wants him. Fine. If she were truly a [62:46] cute little girl, then of course I would [62:49] make time, maybe an hour or two, to keep [62:52] her company, but she’s impaired. [62:55] A mother who has difficulty walking and [62:58] speaks in a muffled way—should I just [63:01] ignore her pleas for help? [63:02] >> I think there’s a reason for this, as [63:04] I’ve talked to many people, and it’s [63:06] that everyone is very afraid of [63:08] responding. So, regarding what you just [63:10] said about turning a deaf ear, let me [63:12] tell a short story; I used to call my [63:13] son to take a bath all the time. I mean [63:15] , he was only five years old at that [63:18] time, just five years old. I would call [63:20] him every day, and I’d ask, "Why do you [63:22] just keep playing whenever I call you?" [63:23] He might be playing like this, and he [63:25] just turns a deaf ear. I—I would get [63:27] angry. I said, "You should respond to me [63:29] , you should respond to me by saying,' [63:31] Mom, can I have ten more minutes to [63:32] finish playing? '""You don't have to go [63:34] take a bath right away, but you can't [63:35] just turn a deaf ear, because I feel [63:37] it's very disrespectful to others." Then [63:38] , he said something to me, he said, " [63:41] Mom, I heard you.""But if I respond to [63:43] you, I feel like I have to do it [63:45] immediately, and I feel that pressure." [63:47] "I can't wait, I feel that as soon as I [63:48] say I heard you telling me to take a [63:50] bath..." He had—he had a pressure; a [63:52] five-year-old child actually told me [63:54] that. He didn't say it like that, he [63:56] said, "I feel like I have to do it right [63:58] away. I can't tell you I'll take a bath [64:00] in ten minutes because I think you'll [64:01] still be mad, I think you'll still be [64:03] mad." [64:03] >> Mm. [64:04] >> So, aren't there many things inside this [64:06] ? First, this is the mother's standard; [64:08] this is exactly what I said earlier—you [64:10] didn't give him the space to decide when [64:12] to respond to you or when to do what you [64:14] asked. He thinks, "I have to do it right [64:15] now, but I don't want to. What should I [64:17] do?""I have no choice but to turn a deaf [64:19] ear." Second, mothers sometimes forget [64:21] about boundaries. We tend to have no [64:23] boundaries with those close to us. I [64:25] tried it once, I cried once and he came [64:27] back to eat with me, so I cried twice. [64:29] He would come back. People are all like [64:32] this, because it's only natural. Babies [64:34] are the same; why do they cry? Crying [64:36] gets a response. Everyone knows the [64:39] tools to make this person respond. A [64:41] girlfriend knows how to make her [64:43] boyfriend turn back, right? She’ll call [64:45] him, but she hasn't tried it on her son [64:47] . [64:47] >> Right. I [64:49] >> It’s like an endless void, and I feel [64:51] like I’m about to get sucked in. And [64:53] then I get scared. Because I really like [64:56] my current pace of life, and I don't [64:58] want to get pulled in. I love you very [65:00] much, Mom, I’ll visit ten times, but I [65:02] don’t want to visit a hundred. [65:03] >> Hmm. [65:04] >> But I can’t say it, because if I do, I’m [65:06] not smiling anymore. [65:07] >> Hmm. [65:08] >> Right? [65:09] >> Yes. [65:10] >> So it’s just so conflicted in the middle [65:12] . [65:12] >> Hey, Professor Xu, what do you think [65:14] about this resentment between parents [65:16] and children? Is it normal? [65:18] >> The normal kind doesn't get expressed. [65:21] >> It’s just an unspoken, mutual resentment [65:23] that everyone knows is there. Maybe we [65:26] shouldn't use the word "resentment." [65:30] >> But there are bound to be disagreements [65:32] ; you can't expect your child to think [65:34] exactly like you. [65:37] Uh, you can totally imagine that my [65:39] children don't agree with many of the [65:42] things we do. [65:43] >> They don't approve of them. But they [65:45] don't confront me about it. Things like [65:48] that, but if you strictly escalate it to [65:50] whether there's resentment, it’s hard to [65:53] say. [65:54] Watching Youting study psychology [65:56] reminds me of a book I flipped through [65:59] last night by D.T. Suzuki, that Japanese [66:02] Zen figure, about Zen and psychoanalysis [66:04] . [66:05] He tells some stories about Chinese Zen [66:08] ; maybe because he's Japanese, his [66:10] translation is different—not exactly [66:13] what I've seen—he mentions Master [66:15] Zhaozhou. [66:18] He says there was a housewife who said, [66:20] "My husband doesn't care for the home, [66:23] my son is a mess, I work hard on chores [66:26] for them, and they don't give me any [66:28] praise or validation. [66:31] What should I do?" Master Zhaozhou said [66:34] , "Let them continue to do what they do [66:37] , and you continue to do what you do." [66:40] That sounds like it makes no sense at [66:42] all. A famous quote from Master Zhaozhou [66:45] is, "I will go to hell before any of you [66:48] ." His disciples asked, "Why?" He said, [66:51] "If I don't go to hell before you, how [66:54] can I wait there to save you?" [66:56] What does this show us? [66:59] In today’s rights-based society, we talk [67:02] about things like gender equality and [67:04] racial rights. [67:06] But actually, above all these rights, [67:09] there is a highest human value and moral [67:12] standard set long ago, and I highly [67:14] doubt how many people have ever truly [67:17] achieved it. For example, I have a very [67:20] successful big boss around me. I think [67:22] since he’s made so much money, his life [67:24] experience must be worth learning from. [67:26] But sometimes, when I complain to him [67:28] about someone, I say, "Oh, I’ve had such [67:30] bad luck with petty people in my life, I [67:32] keep running into them, right? Right?" [67:35] >> He asked me, "Why? I never think that [67:38] way. I always feel that if someone has [67:40] deceived me, there must be something [67:43] wrong with me.""How could I have let [67:45] them think they could get away with [67:47] deceiving me?" And he also loves [67:49] collecting antiques. He says if someone [67:52] sells him a fake, he examines himself, [67:55] thinking, "Is my level really that low? [67:57] ""Is my reputation that bad?""How could [68:01] this expert possibly think that I [68:02] wouldn't be able to spot this fake?" So [68:05] he asks, fundamentally, it's not others [68:08] ' fault; it's your own fault. When he [68:10] said this, I really remembered a quote [68:12] from the Platform Sutra of the Sixth [68:13] Patriarch: "If you are a true [68:15] practitioner, you will not see the [68:16] faults of the world," right? This, this [68:18] "They are wrong, I am not, if I am wrong [68:20] , it’s my own fault," means that if you [68:22] are truly a practitioner, there are no [68:24] bad people; all problems are your own [68:25] problems. Why would bad people seek you [68:28] out? You should examine why you attract [68:30] bad people instead of attracting good [68:32] people, you know? I said this is the [68:34] value system of Guanyin Bodhisattva: "I [68:36] can be of service to you all." Like you [68:38] were saying, and listening, what you [68:39] just said implies that you are the one [68:41] who is correct. You are always right, [68:43] but in my view, how can you control [68:45] yourself? You are also a mortal, you are [68:47] also selfish, you also have desires that [68:49] need to be met, and you also have a hot [68:51] temper. [68:51] >> So what you need to think about is not [68:53] for others, but—okay—actually, it is for [68:55] yourself. It’s like something my husband [68:57] , Iron Man, said, which I think is [68:58] brilliant. He said that when a child is [69:00] throwing a tantrum, that is when you [69:01] show your parenting, that is when you [69:03] demonstrate your upbringing. When the [69:05] child is behaving well, parents… [69:07] >> Your home is like a philosophy classroom [69:09] . You have to be, you have to be [69:11] impressive. So I feel very positive [69:13] about it, thinking that everything I’ve [69:15] learned is precisely for dealing with [69:17] this moment—how I am going to resolve [69:19] this, which is what I just called " [69:21] passing the test." [69:22] >> Isn't that my practice finally being put [69:24] to use? I feel excited, I’m not—I’m not [69:27] —I don't feel it’s difficult to apply it [69:30] . [69:30] >> My money spent on therapy wasn’t wasted [69:33] . [69:33] >> I just align myself, listening to what [69:36] the teacher says, what Mom says, and I [69:38] keep my temper calm; once it's done, [69:41] she's happy, and you're happy for [69:43] yourself. Any low point or any setback [69:46] is just an opportunity for you to learn [69:49] and grow. Right. [69:51] >> What's more, every shortcoming has two [69:54] sides; I was watching Serena Williams, [69:57] or rather, her tennis coach. [70:00] >> She plays tennis. [70:02] >> Her coach was being interviewed, and the [70:05] first thing he said was that being her [70:07] coach is also a lesson in life. He said [70:10] that any player's shortcoming is [70:12] actually their strength. This champion [70:15] coach, who has won so many medals, said [70:17] he was a very withdrawn person when he [70:20] was a child. He was afraid of crowds. So [70:23] , he would always hide behind others and [70:25] was treated by countless teachers as a [70:27] student with special needs, asking, " [70:28] Why are you so afraid of people?" He [70:30] said, but what opportunity did that give [70:33] him? Because he was afraid, he hid [70:34] behind the crowd, so he was always [70:36] watching. He didn't speak, he just [70:38] watched, so he said his ability lies in [70:40] being able to read everyone's [70:42] micro-expressions. It's just because [70:44] I've been standing on the sidelines [70:45] watching others since I was little. [70:47] >> Oh. [70:48] >> Because he had such a big shortcoming as [70:51] a child, which was even considered a [70:53] disorder, but because he learned to [70:56] observe people, he doesn't need his [70:58] players to tell him "I'm not in a good [71:00] mood today" or "I lack confidence in [71:03] this stance"; he says he can see it all [71:05] on the court from their [71:07] micro-expressions. [71:09] >> Yes, that's me too. Because I was more [71:12] insecure as a child, I became very [71:14] attentive to reading other people's [71:16] faces. That's why I became a host. Right [71:19] ? [71:19] >> It really is all about watching other [71:21] people's reactions. So that proves that [71:24] a shortcoming is a strength, a [71:26] shortcoming is... [71:27] >> It's true, I told you, that boss Ma Yin [71:29] from Ananya we met last time said the [71:31] same thing. How come I've noticed all [71:34] successful people say this? That is, he [71:36] said, "Look, sometimes clients give me a [71:38] lot of feedback; at first, I also felt [71:40] very unhappy, right?" Of course, nobody [71:42] likes to hear that. "But," he said, "I [71:44] gradually realized something later." He [71:46] felt that reading the residents ' [71:48] opinions was a form of spiritual [71:49] practice, and I have to do this homework [71:51] every day; you know, I don't get upset [71:53] by it anymore. I'm just saying, one day [71:56] your answer will be what? It's not your [71:59] husband who is the "Iron Man," it's you [72:01] who are the "Iron Man." You know, to be [72:03] able to do all this, the prerequisite is [72:06] that you turn yourself into a better, [72:08] higher-quality person. My goodness, I [72:11] was just saying how much you must have [72:13] suffered over these seven years to [72:15] surpass yourself like this. Oh my, I [72:16] always feel like you don't realize how [72:18] much he cares about his family. [72:20] >> In that cold Northern Europe. [72:22] >> Yeah, the Ironman competition really [72:23] tortured you, didn't it? [72:24] >> Alright then. Why all these psychology [72:26] lessons and such? Do you feel like [72:28] you're losing it? [72:29] >> Because people are destined to be lonely [72:31] . [72:31] >> Look, look at the show. [72:33] >> This is just too philosophical. [72:35] >> Right? [72:36] >> Did you get that? [72:38] >> I’m actually quite touched; if I heard [72:41] you correctly, you said that sometimes [72:43] your children point out your own [72:45] shortcomings. [72:48] I, I have a very vivid memory of a [72:51] similar scene. [72:53] It was many years ago, my daughter, and [72:55] I—I took her to the bookstore—well, we [72:58] just went to the bookstore together. I [73:01] have to learn from you, not constantly [73:03] talk about "my child," right? And don't [73:06] say "I took my child." [73:09] >> It wasn't really me taking her; my wife [73:11] hasn't done a show with you. [73:15] Right, she and I appeared at the [73:17] bookstore together, and of course, I [73:20] paid in the end, okay. [73:22] So, we were looking at books, with many [73:25] books on the table. [73:27] Then I told my daughter to pick a book, [73:30] to see if there were any good ones. [73:32] I asked, "What book do you think I [73:34] should read?" [73:36] My daughter looked for a moment, picked [73:38] up a book, and placed it in front of me [73:41] . I looked at the cover title in English [73:43] ; translated into Chinese, it meant: " [73:46] If you love your children, be good to [73:48] their mother." Oh, I have a very deep [73:51] impression of that. [73:52] >> How old was she? [73:54] >> Looking back, she was probably about [73:56] nine or ten. [73:57] >> Clearly, there's a tyrant at home. [74:00] >> No, the child is just very profound. Or [74:03] is the home life very dark? [74:05] >> I’m a bit more stubborn, I just thought [74:08] I was treating her... [74:10] ... [74:10] >> not well enough, even though I was [74:13] trying. From my daughter's perspective, [74:15] I wasn't being good enough to her mother [74:17] . But my daughter reminded me through [74:20] that book. Of course, truthfully, I felt [74:22] ashamed, seeing it through my daughter's [74:25] eyes. [74:25] >> Is your daughter a writer? [74:27] >> What? [74:28] >> Is she studying writing? [74:30] >> Yeah. Oh right, she likes to write. [74:34] Yeah, just wait, one day she’ll come out [74:37] with a novel, "My Father and Mother." [74:42] >> I’ve always felt that the college [74:44] entrance exam topics should include "My [74:46] Father and Mother." [74:48] >> Right. [74:49] >> Just imagine how many great essays would [74:51] emerge across the country. [74:53] >> I fear nothing on heaven or earth, [74:55] except when my kids ask, "Where did this [74:58] come from?""Where did this come from?" [75:00] >> I made it up. [75:02] >> That is our conclusion for today, isn't [75:05] it? [75:07] >> Jidong said I must retell this story [75:10] I've shared before. [75:13] I've never read my daughter's—well, not [75:16] my daughter, someone else's daughter, [75:19] okay—her novels. [75:21] Why, why is that? She wrote her first [75:25] published piece. I was happy, of course [75:27] , and read it in English. The first [75:30] paragraph started, "On a cold winter [75:32] night, my father quietly packed his bags [75:35] ..." [75:35] >> Quietly packed. " [75:37] >> Then he left home." Oh, I was terrified [75:40] . I didn't know what the plot was. [75:42] That's what I mean—children will remind [75:43] you of things when you're least prepared [75:45] . You just have to read it. That's how [75:47] it is. So I never dare to look. Jidong [75:50] is right, waiting for them to write [75:52] about "My Father and Mother" is truly a [75:54] terrifying thing. My wife is a writer, [75:57] too. I often say I haven't read a single [76:00] one of her essays, even though her two [76:02] books moved thousands of young literary [76:05] fans. [76:05] >> My husband? [76:07] >> No, I just happened to open the table of [76:10] contents. [76:12] One of the titles was "My Husband and [76:15] His Lover." [76:17] Actually, she knew everything all along [76:20] . [76:20] >> Those were essays. I asked her, "Why [76:23] would you write that?" And she wrote [76:26] about... [76:26] >> So and so. [76:27] >> I guess it was the daughter. [76:29] >> Right, so I didn't dare to read it. [76:32] >> I was already overthinking it, so on top [76:34] of fearing nothing, I also fear having a [76:36] writer in the family. [76:37] >> That's also true. [76:38] >> Exactly. See, in the end, every problem [76:42] is a psychological one. [76:45] Is it "peace of mind leads to reason" or [76:47] "reason leads to peace of mind"? Every [76:50] person's choice deserves respect. [76:53] >> Right? Every family, every parent and [76:56] child, has their own arrangements. But [76:59] if you feel anxious, just ask yourself [77:01] if your heart is at peace. [77:03] >> Look at Youting, she even went to find a [77:05] psychologist—or rather, she went to [77:06] study psychology. [77:07] >> Studied psychology. And I think Youting [77:10] had a classic line: regardless of [77:12] whether your heart is at peace, we must [77:14] realize that we are ultimately alone. [77:16] >> No matter who relies on whom. [77:18] >> In the end, everyone is on their own. [77:20] >> So you have to prepare yourself to be [77:22] independent. [77:23] >> I think there is too much emphasis on [77:25] independence these days. Many people use [77:28] "independence"—like "I don't rely on [77:30] others"—as a badge of honor, as if it's [77:33] a value that's so worthy of praise. [77:37] I think we should try to balance that [77:40] out. [77:40] >> Right, right, right. I really, I mean, [77:43] many people need to realize that when [77:45] you say "I did it all on my own," nobody [77:48] actually becomes who they are today [77:50] solely by themselves, right? Even a, [77:52] this, this, what is it, a police officer [77:54] , a traffic cop, you relied on them so [77:56] you didn't get into a car accident and [77:58] made it to this day. [77:59] >> The auxiliary officer nearby. [78:01] >> Exactly, you're right, who can truly [78:03] rely on no one? [78:05] >> But, while we must rely on one another, [78:07] we also need to realize that we are [78:09] ultimately destined to be alone. [78:12] >> Don't you think? Oh, thank you. You've [78:15] shared such valuable wisdom with us, you [78:17] really have.