Wispr Flow Builds 50-Creator Ad Engine, Bans AI to Fuel $2B Run

Wispr Flow打造50人创作者广告引擎，弃用AI助推20亿美元估值 通过按广告支出分成向签约的普通创作者支付报酬，效果超越了传统代理机构与合成AI营销，原因在于广告分发算法需要源源不断的人类多样性来抵御快速出现的创意疲劳。 Hector Serrano阐述了构建付费用户生成内容（UGC）引擎的运营秘诀，即通过类似Trybe的平台，采用混合式“智能预付保留金”（Smart Retainer）结合广告支出比例分成来激励创作者。他强调，现代广告创意若想胜出，依靠的是人类审美、快速迭代以及能引发共鸣且不加雕琢的素材，而非自动化的AI生成内容。Serrano还剖析了他的招聘理念——优先选拔充满渴望的数字原生运营者而非光鲜履历拥有者，并解释了由创始人主导的系列化YouTube内容如何形成复合飞轮效应，从而大幅降低跨付费渠道的获客成本。 Wispr Flow将DTC风格的付费用户生成内容（UGC）机制应用于SaaS领域，通过50名创作者构成的团队每月投放500至600条效果广告，在一年内实现了营收30倍的增长，并达到20亿美元估值。 (1:21) Wispr Flow摒弃了向网红支付固定赞助费的模式，转而向创作者提供无上限的广告支出分成，并辅以混合式“智能预付保留金”作为保障，使非知名创作者每月收入最高可达13,000美元。 (13:44) Wispr Flow刻意在面向客户的创意素材中剔除生成式AI，依托人类审美与真实质感的制作来避免虚假的品牌观感，并规避Meta Andromeda系统等算法层面的限流。 (64:10) 由创始人主导、贯穿YouTube和LinkedIn的系列化叙事发挥了跨平台放大器的作用，在建立信任的同时，大幅压低了各广告渠道的付费获客成本。 (71:56)

[59:50] Hector Serrano: The most successful founders, investors, or creators I’ve met aren’t the most talented. They’re delusionally confident, they outwork everyone, and they love what they do. [45:37] Hector Serrano: The companies that will win long-term are the companies that have the best relationships with creators because word gets out really fast. [76:01] Hector Serrano: If you put a bad thumbnail and a bad title that doesn't intrigue people to click on it, no one's actually going to know how good your video is. [13:44] Hector Serrano: When you send the creator a 10-page guideline on how they need to shoot their content, what they need to talk about, you end up removing the creative aspect that creators have. [74:15] Hector Serrano: Typically the best social people you also find on social platforms. [56:29] Hector Serrano: I think the best advice would be to stop looking for advice.

[0:00] You have been doing this insanely [0:02] incredible job growing WhisperFlow over [0:04] the past couple years. [0:05] >> WhisperFlow at 19. [0:06] >> I looked up creator jobs on LinkedIn. I [0:08] saw like 200 positions. I found some [0:10] company called [music] WhisperFlow. I [0:12] applied, had a call with Tanae, and then [0:14] I joined. I've never worked in a [0:16] startup. And I told Tanae like I was [0:18] like, "I want equity in Whisper." And [0:19] Tanae laughed and was like, "I like you, [0:21] man." [0:21] >> There's all this talk about no jobs left [0:22] for young folks. AI is taking everyone's [0:24] jobs. Young people are actually much [0:26] better at this work. [0:27] >> A 30-40-year-old founder doesn't [0:29] understand what an 18-year-old kid who's [0:30] in these Discord chats, scrolling every [0:32] day on Instagram and TikTok. They don't [0:35] understand what's actually working and [0:36] the best ways to approach these new [0:38] channels. I think it's a no-brainer to [0:39] have someone like that on your team. [0:41] >> You actually had this tweet the other [0:42] day, "The best marketers are allergic to [0:44] AI." If [0:44] >> we go out and start making AI slop ads, [0:47] it's probably not going to be received [0:48] really well. There's so much noise. If [0:50] you actually focus more on the quality [0:52] and less on the quantity, [music] [0:53] it gets so easy to cut through the [0:54] noise. [0:55] >> Let's talk about paid UGC. You were [0:57] getting influencers, creators to create [0:59] a pitch basically for Whisper. [1:00] >> Keep it really open for them to [1:02] experiment, [music] do whatever they see [1:04] fit. They're not capped at their [1:05] earnings. We have creators now that are [1:07] making like $13,000 a month. [1:08] >> The hardest role to hire for right now [1:10] is someone like you. [1:11] >> I think if you just think that [music] [1:12] looking for someone with the best grades [1:13] or the best school is going to get you [1:14] the best hire, you are in for a rude [1:16] awakening. [1:21] >> Hector, thank you so much for being [1:23] here. And welcome to the podcast. [1:25] >> Thank you. Thank you. I'm excited to be [1:27] on. [1:27] >> I'm even more excited to have you here. [1:29] What I want to try to do with this [1:31] conversation is create a very tactical [1:33] guide to what is working in growing a [1:37] B2B SaaS product right now. [1:39] You have been doing this insanely [1:41] incredible job growing WhisperFlow over [1:44] the past couple years. [1:45] Uh I saw this stat that revenue at [1:48] WhisperFlow grew 30x in the past year, [1:51] which is absurd. Uh you guys recently [1:54] raised at something like $2 billion in a [1:57] very competitive market. Clearly you [1:59] figured something out. You've started to [2:01] share some of the strategies that you've [2:03] been deploying on X. And so we're going [2:05] to be going deeper into the stuff that [2:07] you've seen work. [2:09] First of all, give us kind of a sense of [2:11] what it is you you're responsible for at [2:13] WhisperFlow. It's kind of your your job [2:15] there and what do you work on? [2:16] >> First of all, I just want to give a lot [2:17] of credit to the other members of the [2:19] team. Like what I touch at the end of [2:20] the day is a very small part of the [2:22] business. Um and that's mainly content [2:24] as a whole. Um I'm a content creator [2:26] myself and that's how I originally came [2:28] into Whisper and that role obviously [2:30] evolved a lot and now I'm kind of in [2:32] charge of our paid UGC program on the [2:35] actual content side. I'm not on the [2:36] media buying side of things. And then on [2:38] top of that also managing our organic [2:39] channels for our founder [2:41] um like YouTube and Instagram. [2:42] >> Okay, awesome. Something that I've [2:44] noticed about you and something that I [2:45] think is really rare these days is [2:47] you're you're very good at breaking [2:48] through the noise. [2:50] Both in the content you create, like [2:52] your tweets recently have just gone [2:54] crazy viral on Twitter. Everyone's [2:56] sharing it all over my feeds. So clearly [2:59] you figured out how to do that yourself. [3:01] Also with the [3:02] the ad work that you do, the UGC work [3:04] that you do, also very effective. So [3:06] there's a lot that we can all learn from [3:08] you and what you've figured out. [3:10] >> So just kind of zooming out first, talk [3:13] about the the growth levers that you [3:16] have been spending time on. What has [3:17] been working recently in growing [3:19] WhisperFlow {slash} can work for other [3:22] B2B SaaS products. [3:23] >> I think the first one and it's maybe a [3:25] bit corny to say, but I think most [3:27] importantly Whisper has grown at the [3:29] rate it has because of the product. It's [3:31] everything I've been product led growth [3:32] since the beginning. I joined at the [3:34] pre-product stage and I remember we had [3:36] a few thousand users early on and just I [3:38] don't know where it just started [3:39] catching steam and like 6 months in I [3:41] remember Tanay said he was like, "Wow, [3:43] we really found PMS." Like he found like [3:45] we struck gold. Um and then from there [3:47] just adding on all these other channels, [3:48] whether it be organic, paid, everything [3:50] is just adding more fuel to the fire. [3:52] And what we found a lot of success with [3:54] um through trial and and error doing a [3:56] bunch of different things, me testing a [3:58] bunch of channels, other people testing [3:59] a bunch of channels. Like one of the [4:01] main ones we've landed on now is paid [4:03] and we're funneling that with a lot of [4:05] UGC content and we have a lot of pillars [4:08] inside of paid, whether that be UGC [4:10] video, statics, influencers, in-house [4:13] videos, founder storytelling. But yeah, [4:16] paid ads as a whole, whether it be [4:17] through meta, LinkedIn, YouTube, etc. [4:19] has definitely become one of our main [4:21] pillars at Whisper and it's one of the [4:23] things I'm leading on the content side [4:24] of things. [4:25] >> Awesome. Okay, so let's let's dive in [4:27] there, but first and I think to your [4:29] point, it's really important to say uh [4:30] none of this will really work if your [4:32] product isn't exactly great, if there's [4:34] not real [4:35] organic product market fit already. [4:38] Uh [4:39] I imagine this can work for a little bit [4:40] and then it just [4:41] fades away if the product isn't great. [4:43] So, I guess is that just like step [4:45] lesson one, this needs to be working on [4:47] its own with before you start investing [4:49] in paid? [4:49] >> Yeah, exactly. I have like a lot of [4:51] founders sometimes reach out or or come [4:52] by the office or or friends and they're [4:54] like, "What's the hack? Like how did [4:55] Whisper grow so fast?" And it's like [4:58] no disrespect to other products, but [4:59] it's like if you're not having that [5:01] growth early on [5:03] and you having to force it a little bit [5:04] too much and maybe you have to like go [5:05] back to the drawing board a little bit [5:07] and like rethink how you're actually [5:08] positioning the product. Is it actually [5:10] valuable to your users? It why isn't it [5:12] growing by itself organically? And like [5:14] yeah, there's really no hack [5:15] besides having a good product and then [5:17] adding more more levers to pull from. [5:19] >> So, let me ask, when do you think it [5:20] makes sense to start investing in these [5:23] in organic channels? [5:24] >> Well, I think paid is actually one of [5:27] the best channels to invest on early on [5:29] and I learned this from Matt, who's [5:30] actually our ex-head of growth at [5:32] Whisper. Um he's now at Victor and a lot [5:34] of his lessons and lessons that I've [5:36] learned from him is like taking this [5:38] e-com approach um to SaaS, which a lot [5:40] of companies like scared to turn on the [5:42] the paid engine and what happens when [5:45] you actually turn on the paid engine is [5:46] you actually learn a lot faster, like if [5:48] the messaging actually resonates with [5:49] your audience, are you actually able to [5:51] convert this cold traffic into users? [5:53] And like at the end of the day, most [5:55] companies aren't that skilled in organic [5:57] content because it is something very [5:59] like new um and unless you have like [6:02] really young people on your team who [6:03] really understand these organic channels [6:04] really well, know how to package it, [6:06] know how to make the content, it's [6:07] really hard to actually get any clear [6:09] numbers on does your product actually [6:11] have legs, do people actually resonate [6:13] with it, are you actually able to track [6:14] these conversions, etc. So, I think paid [6:17] makes sense from the get-go. Obviously [6:18] like testing within your your limits and [6:20] your budgets that you have. But yeah, if [6:22] you're able to like see I'm able to turn [6:23] this cold traffic into paying users, [6:25] then you kind of have like a clear [6:27] signal there that this same messaging or [6:30] this product will also work on organic [6:31] if you like [6:32] optimize things a bit more. [6:34] >> I want to come back to that just like [6:35] what that early team may look like even [6:37] maybe pre-product market fit. But what's [6:38] really interesting about what you're [6:39] sharing here is people, you know, paid [6:42] has been around for a long time running [6:43] ads on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, all [6:45] these things. Like there's nothing new [6:47] as a platform. And what you're saying [6:49] here is there's still a lot of alpha and [6:51] opportunity to grow substantially and do [6:54] something different in paid. [6:56] >> Yeah, 100%. And like a lot of times [6:58] people also get scared because [7:00] they'll say like, "Oh, I don't want to [7:01] turn on the paid engine yet or spend a [7:02] bunch of money because then we're going [7:04] to like [7:05] we're going to reach a point where we [7:07] like oversaturate this market or this [7:09] ICP. But at the end of the day it's just [7:11] like getting smarter with how you're [7:12] again positioning the product and [7:13] there's always new ways um or like new [7:16] messaging, new ICPs you can target and [7:18] you won't really reach saturation if [7:19] you're like savvy enough with the angles [7:21] that you're kind of approaching your [7:22] content with or the paid that you're or [7:24] how you're approaching that paid [7:25] mechanism, I guess. [7:27] >> This episode is brought to you by this [7:29] season's presenting sponsor WorkOS. What [7:32] do OpenAI, Anthropic, Cursor, Replit, [7:35] Sierra, Clay, and hundreds of other [7:37] winning companies have in common? [7:38] They're all [music] powered by WorkOS. [7:41] If you're building for enterprises, you [7:42] have felt the pain of integrating single [7:44] sign-on, SCIM, RBAC, and audit logs. [7:48] WorkOS turns those deal blockers into [7:50] drop-in APIs built for B2B SaaS. And now [7:53] there's a new kind of user that needs [7:55] access to your app, agents. AI agents [7:58] need to register, authenticate, and get [8:00] permissions just like a person. WorkOS [8:03] handles it all. Agent Auth to give [8:05] agents scoped revocable identities, [8:07] agent registration with Auth MD, and [8:10] Airlock [music] to judge every agent [8:12] action and allow, deny, or escalate to a [8:14] human. I've noticed that every startup [8:17] that I'm an investor in that expands up [8:19] market ends up using WorkOS because [8:22] they're the best. Go to workos.com to [8:25] make your app enterprise ready today. [8:28] Okay. So, let's actually let's dive into [8:30] this. So, let's talk about paid UGC and [8:33] paid in general. What's kind of the [8:35] >> the overall strategy that you have [8:36] employed that has worked so well? [8:38] >> I think it would be kind of good to [8:40] start maybe from what we learned [8:41] previously, actually. Um so, [8:44] where do we go back to? I think this was [8:46] like early 2025, we had an intern named [8:50] Tobin. Uh he's a good friend now. I [8:52] don't know if you've heard of him. He [8:53] also went pretty viral a while back. Um [8:55] he ended up joining Polymarket. But [8:57] basically, Tobin came on as an early [8:59] intern marketing hire. Didn't really [9:00] have any experience um besides some like [9:02] basic UGC. [9:04] I think he was studying finance and [9:05] wanted to be a lawyer. [9:07] And he came in and tonight just gave him [9:09] like a budget and was like just throw [9:11] stuff at the wall, see what sticks. [9:13] Did a few projects, nothing really [9:14] worked. And then [9:16] he found really good success with [9:18] organic UGC. And this was also around [9:20] like the Clue era when like there wasn't [9:22] that many people doing it successfully. [9:23] >> Explain organic UGC. What is that [9:25] exactly? [9:26] >> Yeah, so organic UGC is you basically [9:28] get a bunch of creators in a group. [9:30] These creators will make videos about [9:32] your product and then they will post [9:34] that on their own Instagram pages or own [9:36] TikTok pages. So, imagine you join [9:38] Whisper's organic UGC group and you make [9:40] an account called Lenny Whispers. And [9:42] then you just upload your videos into [9:44] there and then you get paid based off of [9:46] a CPM metric. So, maybe it's like, I [9:48] don't know, $2 per thousand views. And [9:50] then it tapers off like as you get [9:51] higher and higher. And yeah, Tobin set [9:53] that up for us. Um and I think in like 2 [9:56] and 1/2 months was like 500 million [9:58] views. [9:59] Super low CPMs and it it worked decently [10:02] well, but I think it was also early on [10:04] in the organic UGC phase where everyone [10:06] was really focused on vanity metrics. [10:08] And they didn't necessarily lead to a [10:11] lot of conversions because obviously [10:13] the type of product that WhisperFlow is [10:14] as well, it's a bit harder to get to [10:16] students to get students to pay for it. [10:18] So, ultimately we ended up killing the [10:20] program, which I'm not entirely against [10:21] organic UGC. It's just making sure that [10:23] you're not again chasing the vanity [10:25] metrics. And then Tobin did this a lot [10:27] better at Polymarket. He like cracked [10:29] the code with um organic UGC and like [10:31] not just doing very top of funnel um [10:34] concepts. [10:35] But yeah, organic UGC does work. We just [10:36] didn't see that much success or the [10:38] success we wanted at Whisper. And it was [10:40] also going to be really hard to find [10:41] someone uh to take Tobin's role after he [10:43] left. So, we're like, let's just kill [10:44] this. And then again, paid was working [10:47] relatively well for us. So, that kind of [10:49] brings us to where we're at now, where [10:51] I mean, not now, but like 7 months ago I [10:53] realized that paid was working really [10:54] well. And I was the one making all the [10:56] paid assets. So, I was like, what if we [10:58] apply Tobin's playbook from organic UGC [11:00] of like building this community, [11:02] building this roster, and paying off [11:03] performance, and we just apply it to [11:06] paid, and we maybe make the ads a bit [11:08] more middle of funnel, maybe a bit more [11:11] pitching the product. Um I mean, not [11:14] even just middle of funnel because you [11:15] need everything in paid ads, but more [11:16] just like pitching the product straight [11:17] on instead of just like um screen on [11:19] text ads. [11:21] And then I stumbled upon Tribe, which I [11:24] don't know if you want me Do you want me [11:25] to get into that now? [11:26] >> Yeah, talk about Tribe. And it's T R Y B [11:28] E, right? [11:29] >> Yes, T R Y B E. So, Lucas Pacther, she's [11:33] this guy who started Tribe, but before [11:35] that he actually started Squid Haus, um [11:37] which is a clothing brand, and he grew [11:39] it really fast through TikTok Shop. [11:41] But there wasn't really a way to do the [11:43] same thing on Meta. So, he made this [11:45] internal tool where they could run [11:47] creators ads and pay them based off [11:48] performance. And then he basically made [11:50] it available for everyone. And we were [11:52] one of the first companies to hop on. [11:53] And when I saw it, I was like, this is a [11:55] no-brainer. It's like the TikTok Shop [11:56] method, but for Meta ads. And since SaaS [11:59] companies aren't able to use TikTok [12:01] Shop, it's like now they've unlocked [12:03] this sort of [12:05] this new channel for SaaS companies to [12:07] be able to run performance-based ads. [12:09] And yeah, we hopped on there, built out [12:11] our program, and I mean, if you fast [12:13] forward to now, we're now launching like [12:15] 500 to 600 ads every single month. And [12:18] it's been a great process. Obviously, [12:19] that's kind of skipping a lot to where [12:21] we're at now, but just wanted to kind of [12:22] give an idea of what we tried, how it [12:25] worked, but also didn't work, and then [12:26] how we ended up on the performance-based [12:28] model that we have now for paid UGC. [12:30] >> Okay, amazing. We're going to go much [12:31] deeper, but just to make sure everyone [12:33] understands what we're talking about [12:34] here. So, when you talk about organic [12:35] UGC, it's not [12:37] free. It's basically you're [12:40] getting influencers, creators to create [12:41] a pitch basically for Whisper. You take [12:44] their video, you put it on your channel, [12:46] and you pay them per views. [12:48] >> No, so so they post it on their [12:49] channels. [12:50] >> They post it on their channels. [12:51] >> Yeah, yeah. So, it's a CPM-based. So, [12:53] let's say, again, we bring you into the [12:55] group, and then it you make your own [12:58] channels on TikTok and Instagram, and [12:59] it'll be like Lenny Whispers or Lenny [13:02] Talks. It can be anything really, but it [13:03] you won't then post it on your main [13:05] Instagram. You'd post it on an [13:06] alternate. Um and then we would pay you [13:09] a [13:09] CPM-based. [13:10] >> Okay, so the big difference here is [13:12] instead of CPM-based, which is basically [13:14] views-based, it's they take a percentage [13:18] of spend or uh [13:20] >> Yeah, a percentage of spend or GMB, [13:21] depending on if you're in SaaS or if [13:24] you're a e-com, something like that. [13:26] >> Awesome. Okay, cool. [13:27] >> Yeah. [13:27] >> So, [13:28] you've shifted to this model. It's [13:30] basically performance-based [13:33] uh UGC. So, just to be very clear about [13:35] what this how this works. You find I [13:37] think you have something maybe like 50 [13:39] creators right now. [13:40] >> Yeah, right now we have 50. [13:41] >> Okay, and we'll talk about the [13:42] progression that you recommend starting [13:43] with a couple. So, you find creators, [13:46] you they make a video talking about how [13:48] awesome WhisperFlow is. You use that [13:50] video as an ad on Meta and TikTok and [13:53] other platforms, and then they get a cut [13:55] of how that ad performs. [13:57] >> Exactly. [13:59] >> And then you have two kind of approaches [14:00] to the cut they take. Talk about that. [14:03] >> Yeah, so [14:04] obviously, we don't want to just pay [14:05] creators just off percentage-based, [14:07] especially early on, because if you're [14:08] coming to the group, you make 30 videos, [14:10] and you only make 100 bucks off of [14:12] commission, then it is pretty [14:13] demoralizing. And a lot of times we see [14:15] with our best creators, they're our best [14:17] creators because they stuck around for [14:18] the longest and they've understood how [14:20] the model works. So, one thing we [14:21] actually have included is is a is [14:25] is it's called a smart retainer. And [14:26] what this is is basically like us [14:28] saying, "Okay, we're going to back you [14:29] as a creator. And let's say we're going [14:31] to we're going to do 25 videos and we're [14:34] going to pay you $1,500 as long as you [14:37] hit that quota of videos, we'll pay you [14:38] that money." [14:39] But, um depending on how much they earn [14:42] in commissions, then we might top them [14:44] up or we might not even add that smart [14:45] retainer in. So, just to make it a bit [14:47] more clear, let's say that you're in our [14:49] program and you hit the 25 videos and [14:52] you only make $500 in commissions, then [14:54] we will pay you an additional $1,000 [14:56] because you hit that quota. But, let's [14:58] say that you also hit that quota and you [15:00] make $3,000 in commission, then you [15:02] strictly keep commissions and we don't [15:03] add any smart retainer. So, it's kind of [15:05] us saying, "As long as you hit these [15:07] videos and you hit these metrics, we [15:08] will pay you X amount." And it makes it [15:10] so that creators that join in the group [15:12] month one, month two, month three, maybe [15:14] they're not able to reach over that [15:16] amount in strictly commissions, but [15:18] they're able to make some sort of amount [15:19] of money so that they actually stay [15:20] dedicated and keep growing. And then [15:22] three or four months down the line, you [15:23] see these creators start to break out [15:25] and make purely commission space, which [15:26] for me as the guy running the program or [15:29] if you're a brand owner, that's like the [15:31] best thing because you're paying them [15:32] pure profit or or pure off the best [15:35] performing videos instead of paying out [15:36] of pocket. Also, I think some good [15:37] background is I'm a creator myself, so [15:40] I found that a lot of companies and even [15:42] at Wish so we were doing this sometimes [15:44] as well. It's like we would give briefs [15:45] to these creators to make ads for us and [15:47] we would give them this whole sheet [15:49] where it's like, "Don't say this, say [15:50] this. Use these hooks. This is how we [15:52] want you to talk about the product. This [15:54] is how you need to film the product." [15:55] And it's like when you send the creator [15:57] a 10-page guideline on how they need to [15:59] shoot their content, what they need to [16:01] talk about, you end up removing the [16:02] creative aspect that creators have. Um [16:06] and there's nothing more demotivating [16:08] than that. And I know as a creator, like [16:10] if I have a brand that trusts in me, [16:11] brings me in for a reason, and just [16:13] opens the doors for me to create content [16:14] how I see best fit for the product, [16:16] you're going to get better content out [16:17] of me than if you just put me in this [16:18] box. [16:19] So, [16:21] that's one of the main reasons that a [16:22] lot of the creators want to work in our [16:23] group. And we also keep it really [16:24] tight-knit. So, it's like this [16:26] tight-knit feeling. We bring the best of [16:27] the best, and then on top of that, we [16:29] keep it really open for them to [16:30] experiment, do whatever they see fit. [16:33] They're all fans of the product. And [16:34] then on top of that, they're not capped [16:36] at their earnings. We're not paying them [16:37] $100 for a video. We're not paying them [16:39] $50 a video. It's not $1,000 for the [16:42] month. It's like it's truly uncapped. If [16:44] they have really good videos and they [16:46] put a lot of effort in, we have creators [16:48] now that are making like $13,000 a [16:49] month. And that's not really possible [16:51] with other forms of UGC or even [16:53] influencers. They're making more money [16:55] than than full-time influencers. And [16:56] they might have like 1,000, 2,000 [16:58] followers on on their own Instagram [16:59] accounts. But this has just been a way [17:01] for any creator who's talented to be [17:04] able to make real like money. [17:06] >> Awesome. And the way you do it is if [17:08] it's a shopping sort of product, you [17:10] give them a percentage of GMV. And then [17:12] if it's the B2B SaaS product, you give [17:14] them a percentage of ad spend. [17:16] >> Especially especially if you have like a [17:17] freemium product where it's hard to [17:18] track direct conversion because we also [17:19] don't want to get in a place where [17:21] I don't know, maybe people are [17:22] converting off their ads or maybe [17:24] they're not, maybe they're purchasing, [17:26] and then we're running those ads and [17:27] profiting off those ads and they're not [17:28] getting like like they're not they're [17:30] not getting paid what they're worth. And [17:32] with a product like Whisper where it's [17:33] kind of hard to track those attributions [17:35] or it might take a week or two, it's [17:36] best if we just keep it at a percent of [17:38] ad spend. But obviously if you're like [17:39] selling, I don't know, a water bottle or [17:41] a t-shirt and it's like really easy to [17:42] track whether a person came from this ad [17:44] or that ad and if they purchase or not, [17:47] um then it makes more sense to do a [17:48] percent of GMV. [17:49] >> So, the innovation here that has worked [17:51] really well is giving the creator a kind [17:54] of a [17:55] piece of the action of the success of [17:57] their ad. [17:57] >> Exactly. [17:59] >> Awesome. And then also capping the [18:00] downside so that they can actually spend [18:02] time doing this versus being worried [18:04] that they they're not going to make a [18:05] living. [18:06] >> Yeah, exactly. Cuz a lot of the times [18:07] these creators have to they end up [18:09] having to constantly be negotiating with [18:10] brands or working with new companies, [18:12] learning new things. And it's like not [18:14] only are these creators all power users, [18:16] but they get to work with the same [18:17] company every single month. So, just [18:18] think about like the compounding effect [18:20] of how much better the videos get over [18:22] time instead of "Oh, you're this brand [18:24] who's running a new maybe launching a [18:26] new feature." And you're like, "Okay, [18:27] let's scramble to find new creators." [18:29] And it's like, if you already had that [18:31] internal group of creators who already [18:32] know your product and already believe in [18:34] you, and like some of my creators [18:36] understand the product better than me [18:37] almost, and they come up with ideas I [18:39] never could have come up with. Um so, if [18:40] you just have that internal group [18:41] already, it's so easy that when we [18:43] launch a new thing, whether it was like [18:44] the Whisper note taker or all these [18:47] different features that that we release, [18:48] it's so easy for me to just drop it in [18:50] the Discord and be like, "Hey guys, [18:52] let's make a video on this." Instead of [18:53] having to go chase around and find all [18:54] these different creators and brief them, [18:56] and then the next month they're gone, [18:57] and then 2 months down the line you have [18:59] to go find them again. Um so, yeah, it [19:01] it just makes for a great experience [19:02] both on the brand side and the creator [19:03] side. [19:04] >> And this again comes back to the product [19:06] itself has to be awesome because it'll [19:08] be very hard to find creators that love [19:09] your product if the product isn't [19:10] awesome. [19:11] >> Yeah, and it it and it's just easy to [19:13] burn out as well as a creator. Like, if [19:14] you're talking about something you don't [19:15] believe in, [19:16] it can get boring really quick. [19:18] >> Yeah, it's almost a test of product [19:19] market fit. Can you find creators that [19:20] are excited about [19:22] >> Yeah, and low churn. [19:23] >> Yeah. [19:24] >> That was that was honestly [19:25] cuz I guess some context as well. I was [19:27] actually at Whisper, I was the one [19:29] making every single ad for like a year [19:31] and a half. So, I made hundreds and [19:32] hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of [19:34] ads. Um [19:36] which I guess that's a testament to how [19:37] much I I loved Whisper. I didn't go [19:38] crazy. Uh and and yeah. [19:41] >> Do you think that is actually really [19:42] important for the person that takes this [19:43] work to have been the person creating [19:45] the ads before asking creators to create [19:47] the ads? [19:47] >> Yes. I thought it was important. cuz it [19:48] goes back kind of to to a point I [19:50] mentioned earlier where a lot of people [19:51] who've never worked in content or or who [19:53] have never worked with the creators end [19:55] up being the ones briefing them and [19:56] telling them what to do. [19:58] And it's like you would never have [19:59] someone who's not an engineer telling [20:00] the engineering Like, I would never go [20:01] up to the engineering team and be like, [20:02] "Hey, you guys need to solve this [20:03] problem like this and do this and this [20:05] and this." And they're going to be like, [20:06] "What is this guy telling me?" [20:07] >> Okay, so let's go down this tangent of [20:10] to find someone like Hector, what what [20:13] are what does a profile look like if you [20:16] were to find a Hector to lead this work [20:18] at your company? [20:19] >> Cuz it's one of the most interesting [20:21] conversations I have with a lot of my [20:22] friends, especially Tobin like I [20:23] mentioned earlier, because we both [20:25] couldn't be more opposite from each [20:27] other. Like if you look at both of our [20:29] resumes lined up next to each other and [20:31] I asked you to pick one or the other, [20:33] uh you probably in your head will think [20:34] it's pretty clear which one would be the [20:36] right answer, but at the end of the day [20:37] both are the right answer. And like I [20:40] had a 2.5 GPA, Tobin had a 4.0. I didn't [20:43] go to a reach school, Tobin went to [20:44] Waterloo. I played Division 1 sports, [20:47] Tobin didn't. And like there's all these [20:49] different things, but at the end of the [20:50] day we both ended up being great [20:52] marketers. But that wasn't really [20:54] evident if you like looked at the face [20:56] value of our resumes. But I think [20:58] Whisper has done a really good job of [21:00] like seeing one or two really key [21:01] things. [21:02] And also like being able to see, okay, [21:04] is this person a good fit for the for [21:06] the culture? Do they seem hard working? [21:08] If they have the same values or the same [21:10] culture as people already at Whisper and [21:12] like [21:13] I feel like Tenny, Daniel, and the rest [21:14] of the team are really good at not only [21:16] spotting early talent and seeing what [21:18] are those key things to look out for, [21:20] but also seeing, okay, is this a good [21:22] person, a good human to have on the [21:23] team? And I think Tobin and I obviously [21:26] might be speaking a bit too much for [21:27] myself, but I think we we embody those [21:29] character traits perfectly. And you [21:32] might be asking like, okay, well, what [21:33] are the traits I need to look for in a [21:34] good marketing hire? And it's like [21:36] honestly, it's not that complex. It's [21:38] like, has this person grown an account, [21:40] even if it's like 10,000 followers? And [21:42] do they somewhat understand what they're [21:43] talking about in terms of creator and [21:45] they've made content? Like that's how [21:46] basic it is. Like as long as they have [21:47] some experience [21:49] in building a following, even if it's a [21:50] small following, it shows you that they [21:52] understand the consistency it takes to [21:54] like grow a social media following. It [21:56] shows you that they understand trends [21:57] and how to make a video and how to edit [21:59] and how to film, etc. And yeah, I think [22:02] that like it comes down to style. Do [22:04] they seem like a hard worker? Are they a [22:05] good person? And do they have those like [22:07] minimum like 10,000, 15,000 followers? [22:10] And then taking a shot on them. And you [22:12] can't just bring a young person in and [22:13] then be like, okay, like you're not [22:16] where you where I want you to be, like [22:17] you're gone. Like Tenny and Daniel again [22:19] and the whole Whisper team always gives [22:21] us a lot of time to learn and fail. And [22:23] I know for a fact for the first seven [22:25] months at Whisper, I was kind of a [22:27] uh I was kind of all over the place. I I [22:29] still joke about it with Daniel how um [22:31] there was some hard conversations here [22:33] and there where you're like, "What's [22:33] Hector doing?" [22:35] Um but yeah, they gave me the freedom to [22:37] to keep experimenting and keep trying [22:38] new things. And it didn't really matter [22:41] if you failed as long as you're [22:42] consistently learning and getting better [22:44] and getting better. And like that's the [22:45] same for Tobin. Tobin came in, they gave [22:46] him some money and some time to [22:48] experiment. And after like 2 months, he [22:50] found something that worked and it [22:51] stuck. [22:52] >> Okay, this is extremely valuable. [22:54] There's this tweet the other day that [22:56] came out of just like the hardest role [22:57] to hire for right now is basically [22:59] someone like you, someone they can talk [23:01] about the product, the technical [23:02] aspects, get people excited, make the [23:05] product compelling. And you're telling [23:07] us what this profile looks like. So, [23:09] just to reflect back what you just said, [23:11] one is evidence that they're very hard [23:13] working, uh evidence they're a good [23:15] person, that their values and culture [23:17] kind of aligns with your company. [23:19] Three, they've actually grown a platform [23:22] to at least 10,000 followers. And this [23:24] could be any platform, like Instagram, [23:26] TikTok, [23:27] >> I I would say Instagram is probably the [23:28] highest sign [23:30] because TikTok is typically a bit more [23:32] brain rot content. And like Instagram's [23:34] like a bit more polished, better [23:35] package. And also the followers you get [23:38] on there as a platform are just better. [23:39] So, I just think Instagram's probably a [23:40] higher signal than TikTok. [23:42] It's pretty easy to grow on TikTok like [23:44] posting some brain rot stuff, I would [23:45] say. [23:46] >> I see. [23:47] What about like X and YouTube? [23:48] >> Uh YouTube is is decent, but I would say [23:51] if you understand the platform like [23:52] Instagram, you can crack any platform. [23:54] Um and yeah, that's my experience. I [23:57] mean, Instagram and YouTube I would say [23:58] if you can [23:59] if you can crack Instagram and YouTube, [24:01] I confident, especially if you're a [24:02] young individual, you can crack any [24:04] platform. [24:05] Like I I'd never posted on X much until [24:08] like 2 weeks ago. And I went from like [24:10] 500 followers on X to like 18,000. And [24:15] I wasn't really used to posting on a [24:16] text-only platform, but I figured it out [24:18] after like a week, it's like, okay, it's [24:19] a volume game. You need to keep it [24:21] short, kind of have your own style, and [24:22] like actually give some value. And like [24:24] that was pretty easy to learn. And I I [24:26] think [24:27] if you start on X, it's a bit harder to [24:29] get into video because video is like a [24:30] whole another beast. [24:32] Sitting down and filming [24:33] is is not an easy thing. I've I've had [24:35] some colleagues like I pushed them to [24:36] start making videos. Um shout out to [24:39] Eric. He's our He's our media buyer. How [24:40] to make a video. And yeah, he he [24:42] struggled a little bit in his first [24:43] month, but I think it's good to step out [24:44] of your comfort zone and and try and [24:45] film some videos. But yeah, it's [24:46] definitely not easy. So I would I would [24:48] say yes, Instagram and YouTube. [24:50] >> That's actually how I discovered you and [24:51] X and it's just like blown up and now my [24:53] entire feed is just Hector videos [24:55] recently. Uh so uh So I didn't realize [24:58] you just started posting in 2 weeks. [25:00] That's insane. Clearly another sign of [25:02] how effective you are at this. [25:04] So another kind of uh bullet point I [25:06] want to double down on there is just [25:08] this idea of young talent. That's [25:09] something you talk a lot about. Just the [25:11] value and almost like the alpha in [25:13] hiring young people. [25:14] >> Yeah. I mean, also going back to the [25:16] point that you had just mentioned like [25:18] how it's the hardest role to hire. I [25:19] think it's very simple. It just boils [25:21] down to like what I mentioned like the [25:22] two resumes. You There's there's no [25:24] clear path for a good marketer or good [25:26] modern marketer who understands socials. [25:28] And if you like look for these things [25:30] that you might think are high signal [25:31] whether it's like the best grades, the [25:33] best school, [25:34] um certain majors. Like you're not going [25:36] to end up with the marketer that you had [25:38] envisioned. Um so I think that's why [25:40] it's hard because there's no real like [25:42] defined path of like, "Okay, this is how [25:43] you find the next Togan or the next type [25:45] three or the next X person." So yeah, I [25:47] I would like my suggestion if you're [25:49] trying to find someone similar to me [25:51] would be try to not find someone similar [25:53] to me because you're not going to find [25:54] the right person. It's just like give a [25:56] shout out to some kid who has like some [25:57] crazy background and the crazier the [25:59] better and obviously has some some proof [26:02] um in the work. [26:03] But [26:04] yeah, the point that you were asking was [26:07] the importance of young talent, right? [26:08] And like why that really matters. [26:09] >> Yeah. [26:10] >> Um [26:12] I think I've seen this example I've seen [26:13] in a lot of different industries. I [26:15] don't know if you've heard of Jimmy [26:16] Fairly, but he's like one of the TikTok [26:18] shop like OG guys. Like he's he's been [26:21] on there I don't know since he was like [26:22] 17. Built a huge agency. Works with some [26:25] of the biggest brands. And recently I [26:27] think his agency got acquired by [26:28] Physician's Choice for like $2 million [26:30] and now he's like in-house with them and [26:32] also with two other brands. But I've [26:34] just seen this kid like surround himself [26:36] I mean he's older than me now, but I've [26:38] seen him surround himself with like all [26:39] these older founders and all these older [26:41] founders of these e-com brands are [26:43] always like just talking about how like [26:44] having a Jimmy next to you is like so [26:47] much alpha because [26:49] a 30-40 year old founder doesn't [26:51] understand what an 18-year old kid who's [26:52] in these Discord chats or who's [26:54] scrolling every day on Instagram and [26:56] TikTok. They don't understand like [26:58] what's actually working and the best [27:00] ways to approach these new channels and [27:01] if you have young people next to you in [27:04] whatever industry you are whether you're [27:05] in SaaS, you're in e-com [27:07] whatever it is and you just find someone [27:09] that kind of understands the things that [27:10] you don't and the early things and [27:12] you're able to ask questions and learn [27:13] from them. I think it's a a no-brainer [27:15] to have someone like that on your team. [27:17] It's like even even if you do your best [27:19] now to dive into TikTok shop or into [27:21] tribe, like you're still going to [27:22] struggle because you're not going to be [27:24] able maybe to connect as much with the [27:25] creators or you're not going to [27:26] understand certain things and it's just [27:27] going to take you [27:29] a a a lot longer time to get used to [27:31] those things instead of like putting [27:32] your time into something that you're [27:33] better at and then bringing someone that [27:34] can kind of manage those things for you. [27:37] >> I love this advice. There's always talk [27:38] about, you know, no no jobs left for [27:40] young folks. AI is taking everyone's [27:42] jobs and this is a really good example [27:43] where young people are actually much [27:45] better at this work. [27:47] >> Yeah. [27:48] And I think obviously Tanay Tanay is [27:49] super young and like she's one of the [27:51] smartest people I know and like he'll [27:53] still bring me into his office or hop on [27:54] a call and like be asking me like oh [27:55] like what's working on Instagram? Like [27:57] how are you doing this so fast or or [27:59] just like ask me questions about content [28:00] in general and I don't I mean I don't [28:02] think [28:03] I've I've seen this from Tanay and the [28:04] team and the team in general like I [28:05] don't think there's ever a point where [28:07] you get smart enough to where you need [28:08] to stop learning and if you take that [28:09] mentality of the founder, I think it's [28:11] like the day you stop growing and that's [28:12] something I've definitely learned from [28:13] Tanay like you're never too good or too [28:15] smart to continue learning and it can [28:17] even be from [28:19] a random 22-year old or 19-year old like [28:21] me. Um yeah. [28:23] >> I love that and you joined Vesper for [28:24] like 19, right? [28:25] >> Yes, I had just turned 19. It was like 3 [28:27] days after my my birthday. [28:30] >> Uh and how long did it take you to feel [28:32] like okay, I've I've kind of figure [28:34] something out? You said initially it was [28:35] kind of rocky and not sure what you were [28:36] doing. [28:37] >> Yeah, I mean [28:37] >> Give people some context. [28:38] >> It was a It was a weird transition cuz I [28:41] had just quit division one soccer like 3 [28:43] days before as well. Um and I literally [28:46] went home, looked up WhisperFlow on [28:47] LinkedIn. Well, yeah, I want to say I [28:49] looked up creator jobs on LinkedIn. Um I [28:51] applied to like 200 positions, have [28:53] found some company called WhisperFlow. [28:55] I applied, um [28:57] had a call with Tanae, and then I [28:59] joined. And [29:01] yeah, it was It was crazy. Like looking [29:03] back at some of the memories, like [29:04] remember It was like one of the first [29:06] days when we're getting ready for our [29:07] launch. [29:09] And I was in my I think it was my [29:11] calculus class, and Tanae started [29:13] slacking me in class, and I I left to go [29:15] to the bathroom and popped up my laptop, [29:17] and I started um I hopped into to the [29:19] Slack huddle, and he was basically like, [29:21] "Our launch video isn't what it means to [29:23] be. Do you think you can edit it on [29:25] CapCut or whatever tools you have and [29:27] make it a bit more Gen Z vibes?" And [29:30] yeah, I got a calculus, and I just [29:32] started editing a video. I had some [29:34] editing experience, but for Tanae on my [29:37] one of my first weeks to ask me to do [29:38] that was pretty scary. But yeah, that [29:40] was pretty much summed up my first year [29:41] at Whisper. I just picked up random [29:43] stuff, didn't really have a clear [29:44] position. I'm pretty sure [29:46] they didn't really know what I was doing [29:47] either. I didn't know what I was doing. [29:49] And yeah, it probably took me a year to [29:50] like feel actually comfortable. [29:52] And there was there was a lot of ups and [29:53] downs. [29:55] And actually one thing I want to point [29:56] out as well is I was also doing a [29:57] finance internship after So, it'd been a [29:59] year It had been a whole school year. [30:02] And then it was my junior going to [30:03] senior year, and that summer I had [30:06] applied Well, I had applied to a bunch [30:07] of finance internships early in the year [30:09] because I didn't know if content was a [30:10] real career. Like obviously I was [30:13] enjoying Whisper, and I was making some [30:14] decent money for my personal brand, but [30:16] I was like, "I don't know if this is a a [30:17] real career." And my parents, like we [30:19] immigrated to the US and everything, and [30:20] like me being in college and like [30:22] studying finance was a big deal, and [30:23] they wanted me to go down the [30:24] traditional route. So, I ended up [30:25] landing a finance internship in New York [30:27] City, and I was balancing two summer [30:29] classes, WhisperFlow, and finance [30:31] internship. And like 2 weeks into the [30:33] internship, but [30:34] hated it. And I was like, "I do not want [30:37] my life to be like this. I need to make [30:38] content and Whisper work out. So, I'd [30:40] sneak out the office and go to some [30:42] cafes in Soho and just work on Whisper [30:44] and my personal content. And then from [30:46] there, everything started to like click [30:48] and then [30:49] yeah, that that's kind of how how it [30:51] worked. [30:52] >> What a journey. I feel like we could [30:53] have a whole other conversation about [30:55] just the creator path and how to become [30:57] a content creator on Instagram and all [30:59] these platforms. That's its own that's [31:01] its own thing. I'm going to come back to [31:04] how you find the creators for this kind [31:07] of paid UGC strategy. [31:08] >> If we walked through the whole strategy [31:09] honestly now, I think this would be a [31:10] good moment to to walk through [31:12] everything. Um so, yeah, like I guess [31:14] like we were mentioning, the first step [31:17] is kind of figuring out okay, like if [31:18] you're in SaaS, you're going to do [31:19] percent of ad spend. If you're in [31:20] e-commerce, you're going to do percent [31:21] of GMV. And then from there, you'll set [31:24] up the group whatever platform you [31:26] choose. I think Tribe is the best one. [31:28] It's the one we use at Whisper. And then [31:31] once you have your group set up, it's [31:32] like okay, now you have to go actually [31:33] find the creators. And if you think [31:35] about it, it's like imagine you're [31:37] starting a company from zero and you [31:39] land on a platform and there's thousands [31:41] of creators, thousands of brands and [31:43] your company has no history. More than [31:45] likely, you're not going to be able to [31:46] get the best of the best. Um and this is [31:47] where a lot of companies go wrong. [31:49] They'll start doing a lot of outreach on [31:50] these platforms and they're like, why [31:51] would a creator want to work for a brand [31:53] that has like no money like for example, [31:55] on Tribe it says how much money we paid [31:57] out to creators. It's like $300,000. It [31:59] says how many creators we have in the [32:00] group and then how many ads we have [32:03] running or whatever. Um and like when [32:05] creators see that we've paid $300,000 [32:07] out and that we only have 50 creators [32:08] in, you can imagine the amount of [32:10] inbound that we get. But on the [32:11] contrary, if you're a brand who has $0 [32:13] paid out and zero creators, it's going [32:14] to be really hard to get creators in. [32:16] So, what I did is I went off platform [32:18] and I went on platform like Instagram. [32:21] And you just look up a bunch of [32:22] keywords. Can be like UGC creators, [32:25] um [32:25] I don't know, tech, 9-to-5, lawyer, [32:28] doctor, [32:30] um sleep supplements, whatever niche [32:32] you're in and just go down a bunch of [32:33] rabbit holes. And then you'll land on [32:35] creators that you like, send send [32:37] and then you also go through their [32:38] following and follower list and you also [32:40] search those same exact keywords. [32:42] Because typically good creators know [32:44] other good creators and then I say from [32:47] around like 150 to 250 DMs over a week. [32:50] And like these should be very targeted [32:51] DMs. Like it shouldn't be like, "Oh, I'm [32:52] going to use some mass software and send [32:54] 3,000 messages." [32:56] Needs to be very [32:57] You you need to you need to care about [32:59] the small things because nowadays with [33:00] like all these automations, like yes, [33:01] you can do a lot of things fast, but if [33:03] you do it very fast, you're probably [33:04] going to get a lot of slot back or a lot [33:06] of bad creators back. [33:07] And I yeah, I think for outreach it's [33:09] still better to do it manually. [33:10] Obviously, it's going to take a bit [33:11] longer, but if you do it right, I [33:13] haven't had to do outreach ever again. [33:15] Um and yeah, from those 150 to 250 DMs, [33:17] you're probably going to get like five [33:18] or six really good creators. [33:20] Then from there, you onboard them to the [33:22] group and then that's where you get to [33:23] the next step, which would be actually [33:25] building out the culture, um which is [33:28] like just doing all these yes, events [33:30] and things for the creators, whether it [33:32] be like meetings, [33:33] um like we host weekly meetings. Now [33:35] we're at a stage where we have creator [33:36] coaches that help keep our creators [33:38] engaged as well. We do giveaways. Um [33:40] we're hosting a retreat in San Francisco [33:42] next month. Um we're flying in some of [33:45] our best creators from around the world. [33:47] So like these little things that you [33:48] start to do to build up more and more [33:49] culture. [33:50] And then from there, [33:52] so you have a small group of creators, [33:53] you've also set up the like percent of [33:56] ad spend and percent of GMV, and you've [33:58] also built a culture. Then from there, [34:00] you can slowly start to add more and [34:01] more creators. And the way we did that [34:03] at Whisper is we probably went from like [34:04] five to 10, 10 to 15, 15 to 20. We [34:07] probably added like five to six creators [34:09] like every few weeks. And since you're [34:11] now since at this point you also have [34:13] like the five creators and you've [34:14] probably paid out a bit of money, you'll [34:16] start to get some people start to apply [34:17] on Tribe. I think now we probably get [34:19] like 1,000 to 1,500 applications a week. [34:22] So I go through those creator [34:23] applications and then from there, [34:25] since we now have a lot of creators, I [34:26] keep a really high bar and I'll only [34:27] accept maybe one or two or three. But [34:30] yeah, we grew pretty slowly and now [34:32] we're like 50 creators. And aside from [34:35] like accepting creators from Tribe, one [34:37] of the things we've done actually is [34:38] we've [34:39] in- introduced a referral program where [34:41] we will pay creators $100 per creator [34:43] they bring bring into the group. And [34:45] it's not some sort of like MLM pyramid [34:46] scheme thing. Like there was a bunch of [34:48] people on LinkedIn. My post blew up on [34:50] LinkedIn and everyone was like, "This [34:51] sounds like a scam. Like sounds like an [34:53] MLM pyramid or whatever sales." [34:56] And like we're not paying them to just [34:58] bring creators in. It's like we're [34:59] paying them to send a creator over. If I [35:01] think they're a good fit, [35:02] then we'll bring them in. But we don't [35:04] want more people in. Like we're capped [35:05] at 50. It's not like, "Oh, bring me 100 [35:06] creators and I'll pay you for 100 [35:07] creators and then we'll pay another 100 [35:09] creators." Like this is a very [35:10] tight-knit family and it's just our way [35:11] of saying thank you for helping us grow [35:13] the program. And yeah, those are like [35:14] some different levers we've you've [35:16] applied to kind of grow the group. [35:19] And then that brings me to the last [35:20] step, which I don't know. Am I going too [35:22] fast through this or [35:23] >> No, I'm good. I [35:24] do have questions, but keep going. [35:25] >> Yeah, that brings me to the last step, [35:27] which is like now you have the culture, [35:29] you have the people in the group, you [35:31] have you're at like a decent size, you [35:32] have the the percent of GMV, percent of [35:34] ad spend. And now one thing that's going [35:36] to start to happen is you're getting a [35:37] lot of ads. And your ads are going to [35:40] show like in the group. It's going to [35:41] show like, "Okay, which is the ad that's [35:43] doing the most spend, second most spend, [35:44] the third spend?" And your creators can [35:46] see these things. And like obviously you [35:47] want them to see it. But it can also [35:49] backfire if you're not like good at [35:50] coaching your creators because these [35:52] creators will see the top-performing ads [35:53] and they'll like they'll be like, "Okay, [35:55] I want I'm going to copy those ads as [35:56] well. I'm going to copy what they're [35:57] doing." And if you end up doing that, [35:59] what ends up happening is you get 300 [36:00] ads that all look the same, they all [36:02] feel the same. [36:04] And Meta, when an ad is like 160% [36:06] similar, it ends up grouping it together [36:08] whether it's like the same t-shirts, [36:10] you're in the same setting, you're [36:11] saying the same words. Like Andromeda is [36:12] super complex now. And for example, [36:14] it'll scan your ad like five times over, [36:16] it'll pull the transcript, it'll pull [36:18] like each frame out, it'll look at the [36:20] the text on screen. And like if you like [36:23] think about it, like [36:24] like nothing's going to get past that. [36:26] And it that's why you can reach ad [36:27] fatigue really quickly if you're [36:29] constantly repeating the same formats, [36:30] the same messaging, the same people. [36:32] Um so what we do is we continuously like [36:35] push these creators and remind them like [36:37] the reason these creators are making so [36:38] much money and that their ads are all at [36:39] the top is because they kept [36:41] experimenting and they keep they kept [36:42] leaning into what they were actually [36:44] good at as creators and what interests [36:46] them as creators. And if you just follow [36:47] what person A, B, or C are doing, then [36:49] your ads are just going to rank under [36:51] them and you're not going to get any [36:52] spend. So, we constantly push creators [36:54] to just keep experimenting, keep doing [36:55] crazy stuff. And when you look at some [36:57] of the ads in our library, it's like [36:59] that's why I say like the creators [37:00] sometimes understand the product better [37:01] than me and come up with better concepts [37:04] and ideas better than me and that's why [37:05] I stay away from briefs. Like one [37:07] example of a really good ad that we had [37:09] recently [37:10] was this this creator had his keyboard [37:12] outside his window on a roof and it was [37:15] raining [37:16] and it it was like, okay, so it's like [37:18] it stops you cuz it's like a very [37:20] interesting visual hook. And then it [37:22] pans over and on the thing it says, [37:25] "What is my keyboard trying to say?" And [37:26] it pans over to his laptop and it's like [37:29] the raindrops are typing and then it [37:31] starts typing random words and then it [37:32] says, "Download Whisper Flow." And that [37:34] ended up becoming one of our [37:35] best-performing ads. It's like I don't [37:36] even know how we came up with that. Um [37:38] so, kudos to him. But that's what [37:39] happens when you keep it really [37:40] open-ended. You fun product um and you [37:43] let the creators have fun and just keep [37:45] experimenting. And yeah, like no two ads [37:47] in our ad library look the same. [37:49] >> Wow, amazing. Okay. [37:51] Let me try to walk through the steps [37:53] here cuz this was so much juicy gold [37:56] stuff uh advice. So, step one, sign up [37:59] on Tribe. Tribe is kind of where you [38:01] manage creators and pay out and all that [38:02] kind of stuff. Uh your advice here is [38:05] don't work through Tribe to find them [38:06] because no one's going to care about you [38:08] yet and your advice is go to Instagram, [38:10] keyword search for things like kind of [38:11] in your market, UGC, tech, lawyers that [38:14] maybe want to make money on the side [38:16] to recruit the first five. The advice is [38:18] start with five, don't go too big. Okay. [38:20] >> And I would I would also it's not even [38:22] just start with five or start with [38:23] lawyers or or whatever. It's like you [38:25] have to look at your ad library and look [38:27] at your product and be like, "Okay, what [38:28] specific gaps do we have that we [38:30] actually need to fill in?" Because more [38:32] isn't necessarily better and like that [38:33] applies to everything in life, but [38:35] specifically in creators, if you just [38:36] bring 100 or 200 of the same creators [38:39] that isn't going to lead to scale [38:40] because again, everything's going to [38:41] look the exact same. But when you bring [38:43] in five creators that each speak to a [38:44] specific audience, each speak to maybe a [38:46] specific messaging of your product. You [38:48] get five net five different creators [38:51] that can all make net new concepts and [38:52] like it just exponentially grows the [38:54] more different creators you bring on [38:56] board. So, it's like [38:57] not just the the point about bringing a [38:59] few creators, it's also being very [39:00] specific about those few creators you're [39:01] actually bringing in. [39:02] >> And so, when you say that, it's think [39:04] about what customer kind of market, what [39:06] ICP you're targeting, and what's the [39:08] creator that will speak to that [39:09] audience. [39:10] >> Exactly. So, at Whispire, we have [39:11] everything from like moms to lawyers, we [39:14] have like this the awesome thing about [39:16] Whispire is like when you have a product [39:18] that people love, like you get so many [39:20] cool people wanting to work with your [39:21] brand. We have like an eight-figure [39:23] e-com founder that loves Whispire so [39:25] much that he just makes ads for us. And [39:27] it's like [39:28] I find that pretty incredible. Like some [39:29] dude who has a successful e-com [39:31] business, he loves Whispire so much he [39:33] just wants to be part of the community [39:35] and he's like 45, has kids, and yeah, [39:37] like we have basically anything you can [39:39] imagine. Engineers, lawyers, [39:42] um moms, [39:43] uh sales reps, [39:45] agency owners, like any any type of ICP [39:48] you can imagine. And [39:50] I get this question a lot as well from a [39:51] lot of founders in different businesses [39:53] reaching out and they'll be like, "Oh, [39:54] well, I have a dev tool or I'm in the [39:56] sleep space. I can't make content for [39:59] for my brand or I haven't had success [40:00] with UGC." And a lot of times what [40:02] happens is people mistake UGC for [40:04] thinking it's just college kids making [40:06] content, but UGC is user-generated [40:09] content and if you're a dev tool, your [40:10] user's probably going to be an older [40:12] technical person and you can't you can't [40:14] you can't get by bringing on 18-year-old [40:17] who isn't technical to talk about your [40:18] product. And those ads might look a lot [40:21] different look they might look a lot [40:22] different. Like for example, our [40:24] technical ads at Whispire, [40:26] when you're speaking to like this older [40:27] demographic who [40:29] isn't really on Instagram that much or [40:31] isn't maybe a bit more serious, the more [40:33] boring and the uglier the ads are, the [40:35] better they will perform and that can be [40:37] something as simple as like a screen [40:38] recording of someone using your product. [40:41] It could be like a minute, 30 seconds [40:42] long. Like it can be super long. Like [40:43] some of our best ads, you would look at [40:45] them and you'd be like, "Holy cow, these [40:47] are ugly. These are such bad ads." Um [40:50] but they actually perform the best for [40:51] those specific audiences that maybe are [40:52] a bit older, maybe are a bit more [40:53] technical. And it's like the same thing [40:55] for for a sleep product. Like if you [40:57] have an expensive product in the sleep [40:58] in sleep niche or industry whatever, [41:00] um, and you have an 18-year-old kid [41:02] selling it, why are you or why am I [41:05] going to buy a $3,000 product from a [41:08] kid? [41:09] Probably it's not going to work that [41:10] way. You want to buy from someone who [41:12] maybe speaks the same way you do, who [41:13] works in the same things you do, has the [41:15] same problems you do. [41:16] Um, and and yeah, I think UGC works for [41:18] for any company. It's just [41:20] the maybe more upstream you go or the [41:22] more expensive your product is and the [41:23] more niche it is, it gets a little bit [41:25] harder, but it's just like, okay, how do [41:26] I find users who want to make content [41:27] about my product? [41:28] >> And this unexpected element of what [41:30] works, um, [41:31] is part of the reason I imagine you run [41:33] so many ads. You mentioned you do like [41:35] 700, 500, 1,000 ads a month. Part of the [41:38] reason is to discover the ones that are [41:39] working. [41:40] >> Exactly. Yeah, because [41:42] a- ads I would say is almost weirder [41:43] than organic content. Like I can kind of [41:45] put my finger on what works on organic, [41:48] but sometimes I'll see an ad that comes [41:50] in and I'm like, what the heck is this? [41:51] And it ends up becoming the best [41:52] performer, so that's why I think it's [41:54] just good to experiment. Don't really [41:55] have like such a high bar for like, oh, [41:58] if the ad doesn't work this way or that [41:59] way, we're not going to run it. Like [42:01] again, some of the ads that I made a [42:03] year ago, it's literally like a screen [42:05] recording of someone using the product [42:06] with some text at the top, 9 by 16, [42:09] super long video, [42:11] and they're our best ads and they're our [42:13] ugliest ones as well. [42:14] >> This season's supporting sponsor is DX. [42:17] Now that everybody at your company is [42:19] finally using AI, the question that [42:22] engineering leaders face is no longer [42:24] are we using AI, but is [music] it [42:26] paying off? With DX, you can measure and [42:29] benchmark the impact of AI adoption [42:31] across your full product life cycle. DX [42:34] shows you where AI is helping developers [42:36] and where it's creating new bottlenecks. [42:38] You can also use it to evaluate AI [42:40] vendors, monitor costs and licenses, and [42:43] see exactly what's limiting your agents. [42:46] That's why hundreds of enterprises, [42:48] including Snowflake, Sony, and BNY, use [42:51] the DX platform to measure AI's impact [42:54] on developer productivity. Visit [42:56] getdx.com/lenny [42:59] to get a demo of DX. That's [43:01] getdx.com/lenny. [43:04] >> What does the DM look like when you [43:06] reach out to a creator? [43:07] >> So, it kind of depends and there's [43:08] honestly some different ways to go about [43:10] it. [43:11] A lot of times as a brand, you'll [43:12] actually have a lot of creators already [43:14] in your DMs or a lot of creators that [43:15] are already following you. So, that's [43:17] like the number one place I would [43:18] actually start and a lot of our early [43:20] creators came from there is we would [43:21] just go into our following list and look [43:23] up UGC or look up creators. [43:25] And then also go through our DM requests [43:27] and you'll actually like come across a [43:29] lot of creators. And from there, it's [43:30] like they already follow you, they [43:32] probably already like your product. So, [43:33] it gets really easy and you can just be [43:34] like, "Hey Lenny, I saw your content. I [43:37] really enjoyed it. Uh [43:39] I would love to have you be part of our [43:40] creator group." And I don't necessarily [43:42] pitch it. I don't necessarily pitch the [43:44] performance-based thing yet because it's [43:46] still a pretty it's still a relatively [43:48] new thing for creators like hearing this [43:50] new model and a lot of them are [43:51] skeptical at first, which I understand [43:52] why. But even like 7 months ago, 6 [43:54] months ago, it was even more like new. [43:57] Um so, even then, like today I still [43:59] wouldn't start with that and like go [44:00] straight into pitching super hard. I [44:01] just be like, "Hey, love your content. [44:03] Would love to have you be part of our [44:04] creator group. Are you interested?" [44:06] From there, you'll get a response back. [44:08] They'll probably ask you for some more [44:09] details. And then I have like a PDF [44:11] that's like super simple. I just kind of [44:12] explain the program structure, how much [44:14] we pay, how much some of our creators [44:16] are making. And then from there, I'll [44:18] just hop on a call with them, close [44:20] them, and get them like onboarded in [44:22] Discord, get them WhisperFlow code, and [44:24] then get them making videos. And the [44:26] other way is if they don't follow us and [44:28] I'm doing outreach, is I'll just send [44:30] them a DM and be like, "Hey, I have [44:31] somehow across your content. I really [44:33] enjoyed it. I'd love to have you be part [44:35] of our WhisperFlow group. This is the [44:36] tool. This is how it works. [44:38] Um here's the link to it. Let me know if [44:40] you'd be interested." And then from [44:41] there, if they're interested again, I'll [44:42] pitch them and it's kind of the same [44:44] sort of route. [44:45] >> And this is from the WhisperFlow [44:46] Instagram account? [44:47] >> Sometimes I do either or because I also [44:49] so since I'm a creator myself, [44:51] I also I a lot of I do which is also the [44:53] pros of hiring people who are in [44:55] content. Some of our best hires at [44:58] Whisper in content have been through me [44:59] posting on Instagram stories or our best [45:02] creator hires. I'll be like, "Hey, I'm [45:04] looking for UGC creators." Just post a [45:05] story. Or hey, I'm looking for a [45:07] videographer. Or hey, I'm looking for an [45:08] editor. Like that's one of the cool [45:09] things about hiring a content creator. [45:12] Um [45:13] if if they make again content and and [45:14] you just make sure they make high value [45:16] content is they can also be used as like [45:18] a very good hiring mechanism. And yeah. [45:21] It depends. Like if if you have someone [45:23] who's a creator, I think it works pretty [45:25] well. [45:26] Um you obviously you get creator face, [45:27] whatever. And then also if you're a [45:29] really well-known brand, obviously if [45:30] your creator getting a message from like [45:32] Nike or whatever, you know what I mean? [45:34] Like it it's very impressive and you're [45:36] probably more likely to get a response. [45:37] I think it just depends. [45:38] >> And then okay, so you DM them, they're [45:40] interested, you send them kind of an [45:41] overview. In the early say the first [45:44] five, you say you hop on a call pretty [45:46] quickly and just kind of pitch them and [45:47] explain the program. What's like [45:49] downboarding look like? [45:50] >> These creators are very used to just [45:52] being used and like just it's everything [45:56] they do is like a transaction. They make [45:57] a video, they get paid, and they never [45:58] talk to a person again. And we live in a [46:01] like day and age where everything is [46:02] digital, everything's virtual. Most [46:04] people are working remote, most creators [46:06] are remote, and they crave community on [46:09] the same way just like a regular person [46:10] would crave community. And we just make [46:13] sure like that we connect from the [46:14] get-go and like it's like at the end [46:16] they're just like friends. We're like [46:17] working together. I don't see them as [46:19] just like, "Hey, a creator that I'm [46:20] going to extract some videos from and [46:21] never talk to again." I get on a call [46:23] with them, like you said, and I have [46:25] this whole slideshow, but before I go to [46:27] my slideshow, I like ask them about [46:28] themselves, like how they got into [46:29] content, why they enjoy it, and just [46:32] like have a conversation. Try to get to [46:34] know them. [46:35] And then from there the flow of the of [46:37] the slideshow is I have an intro slide [46:39] where I talk about myself. I talk about [46:40] my background as a creator, so like they [46:42] respect me and they know I'm not just [46:43] some random dude talking to them. Um and [46:45] then from there I'll also intro our [46:47] media buyer, who's Eric. Shout out to [46:49] Eric. And then from there I explain the [46:51] product. And then [46:54] from there I explain how Tribe works. So [46:56] I like it I let them know like what they [46:58] can expect in terms of the flow from [47:01] them making the video to it getting [47:03] accepted to it getting run as an ad. I [47:05] tell them we pay them out every 7 days, [47:07] which is like another um hack as well. [47:09] Like you want to keep your creators [47:10] motivated and the higher the dopamine [47:11] rush they can get and the more money you [47:13] can get them early on, the better. Um [47:15] so, yeah, we pay out 7 days. We tell [47:17] them that. Then from there, we show them [47:18] some example ads and then I get them [47:21] onboarded and fully going on the call. [47:22] It's almost like you're closing [47:24] you're closing like a sales deal. You [47:25] don't want to get them all excited and [47:27] then you let them get off and then you [47:28] have to chase them down. It's like you [47:29] want to be very um strategic with your [47:31] time and their time. So, I try to like [47:34] meet them, [47:35] introduce myself, get them onboarded, [47:37] and get them going so that they know [47:39] like, "Hey, you can start making a video [47:40] right now." [47:41] >> So, big lesson here is treat them treat [47:43] them like humans. Care about them, help [47:45] them feel like they're part of this [47:46] thing, not just feel like you're okay, [47:48] you're going to make money. Just shut [47:49] [snorts] up, don't worry about it. [47:50] You're going to make money. [47:51] >> And I think this is actually [47:53] really good alpha as well. So, I think [47:54] the companies that will win long-term [47:57] are the companies that have the best [47:58] relationships with creators because [48:00] words word gets out really fast. And if [48:03] you're a brand that treats creators bad, [48:05] doesn't pay on time, doesn't pay them [48:07] whatsoever maybe or you just block them, [48:09] etc., word will get out and creators [48:12] probably won't want to work with you or [48:13] you won't get the best terms or you [48:14] won't get the best quality creators. Um [48:17] so, I think one really big thing we [48:18] focus on at [48:20] not even just with creators, but any [48:21] external agencies or anyone we work [48:23] with, we always want to treat everyone [48:24] with a lot of respect. Um and and yeah, [48:27] I think I think it's the companies that [48:28] do that the best will will win long-term [48:30] as well. [48:31] >> What does the early team look like to [48:33] start this initiative? Is it just A [48:35] Hector that is running this solo or is [48:36] there a larger team that you'd start [48:38] with? [48:38] >> Honestly, it's it's pretty lean. So, our [48:40] marketing team as a whole is pretty [48:42] flat. Obviously, we're growing a bit [48:43] faster now at Wispri. I think we've [48:45] passed like 120 full-time employees now, [48:48] which is pretty crazy. Um because I [48:50] joined I think we were like four at the [48:52] time. I I remember mess- I messaged Snae [48:54] the other day. I was at the office and I [48:55] was like, "Holy cow, like I just had [48:57] like a a moment where I was like, [48:59] there's so many people around like this [49:01] is crazy blah blah but [49:03] yeah right now we're pretty lean team [49:06] and we were even more lean before but [49:08] for tribe specifically to get something [49:09] like this running all you really need is [49:11] someone like me to kind of be the comms [49:13] with creators [49:14] come up with new concepts approve videos [49:17] kind of get everything kickstarted and [49:19] then you need a media buyer [49:21] it's pretty rare to find someone who's a [49:22] creative and also media buyer I don't [49:24] really like numbers that much I'm not [49:26] really much of a numbers guy and I don't [49:28] like staring at meta ads manager I've [49:30] heard it's a headache so I'm happy I [49:32] don't have to do that but yeah we have [49:33] Eric on the media buying side of things [49:35] and he like structures our ad account [49:36] and everything [49:37] >> so when this media buyer is this kind of [49:39] like a performance marketing person that [49:40] just lives in Facebook's ad system or [49:44] >> yeah exactly so yeah yeah Eric's [49:46] basically just lives in our on the media [49:49] buying side of things on Facebook [49:51] LinkedIn YouTube etc. [49:53] >> got it so you're kind of like the [49:54] creative you're like this the content [49:56] supply and then [49:58] this person takes it and then is [50:00] responsible for running the ads watching [50:02] performance so optimizing the spend [50:05] got it okay and then is there anyone [50:07] else that you find important valuable on [50:09] that team early on and even later on [50:11] >> early like if we go back to the early [50:13] early days the marketing team was Daniel [50:15] our CMO [50:17] Matt who was our head of growth before [50:20] Eric came and then it was me just like [50:22] as a sole creator kind of just making [50:24] the ads myself [50:25] so and then we had some external [50:27] agencies here and there and then slowly [50:29] we added on design [50:31] we added on an in-house like director [50:34] and how to produce films and launch [50:36] videos [50:37] then we introduced like PR recently and [50:41] like even even now I think we're still [50:43] pretty lean I think we might be like 15 [50:44] people on the marketing team like [50:45] full-time we have a creative partnership [50:47] leads for like influencers we have a [50:50] celebrity talent manager that helps us [50:53] close celebrities and and things like [50:55] that so even then it's it's still pretty [50:57] lean and everyone is like experts in [50:59] their domain and it's all very flat we [51:01] all just have free reign. We all do what [51:04] we're best at. There's no real There's [51:06] no really middle management. And then [51:09] our our poor CMO Daniel, who's an [51:11] absolute legend, he just had a bunch of [51:13] direct reports. [51:14] Um so, I feel sorry for his calendar, [51:16] but yeah, that's that's kind of how [51:18] everything is structured. It's like very [51:20] flat. No middle managers. Everyone just [51:21] does their work. [51:22] >> Is a core kind of takeaway from this [51:24] conversation that when you're doing paid [51:27] today, that UGC videos are the way to go [51:31] versus your own ads that you're just [51:33] kind of creating? [51:33] >> So, are you kind of comparing to like [51:35] what I was doing versus what we're doing [51:36] now? [51:37] >> You know, just like when you think paid [51:38] ads on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, most [51:41] people think I create a video promoting [51:43] my product or create like an ad unit [51:45] that is, "Hey, Whisper Floss is the best [51:47] thing." And what you're doing here is [51:50] you're having other people create the [51:51] videos and then running that as the ad. [51:52] >> Yeah. So, the way I look at it is like I [51:55] was basically a in-house UGC creator. [51:58] And it got to a point where ad spend was [52:00] getting too high and [52:02] like I'm only human and [52:05] I couldn't I couldn't make that many [52:06] videos and it was also getting into like [52:08] a year plus of making ads. So, naturally [52:10] I was getting pretty burnt out being a [52:12] one-man show and like I was like, "Okay, [52:13] I have the skill set. I'm a decent [52:15] creator. I can spot like good creators [52:18] as well. Why not just build a team and [52:20] that's like an extension of myself?" And [52:24] yeah, that's that's basically what we [52:25] did and we're able to scale a lot [52:26] faster, test more ideas since we have [52:29] more ad spend, we obviously want more [52:30] concepts running. And also, like once [52:32] you get to a pretty high budget on ads, [52:34] your ads are typically going to reach [52:36] fatigue a lot faster. And especially [52:38] with Andromeda now, ads reach fatigue [52:40] even a lot faster cuz before then 2024 [52:42] when we were running ads, I could have [52:44] an ad running for 12 months and [52:46] I mean, my my output would be a lot [52:48] less, but now an ad with not only the [52:51] new updates, but also how much ad spend [52:52] we're running, an ad [52:54] once it hits like $100,000 in ad spend, [52:57] will be dead and that can be hit in like [52:58] a month or 2 weeks, 3 weeks. So, we [53:01] constantly need more output, more [53:02] volume, etc. And I think that if you [53:04] look at our ad library, we might have [53:05] like 5,000 lifetime ads, and maybe like [53:08] 800 live currently or something like [53:10] that, or 900 live currently. And it's [53:11] because again, they reach fatigue, and [53:12] then we have to turn them off. But, our [53:14] ad our ad set or our ad library isn't [53:16] only full of UGC videos. There's a lot [53:19] of different things as well. [53:21] Um [53:21] and yeah, everything from like statics [53:24] to like high celebrity {slash} [53:26] influencer videos to in-house ads to [53:29] like launch videos that we package as [53:30] ads to like founder led things. [53:34] So, there's a lot of variety in there, [53:35] and it's just just basically [53:38] I mean, I guess just having as many [53:39] formats as possible, because again, we [53:40] have a lot of ad spend, and we want the [53:43] more variety the better at the end of [53:44] the day. [53:44] >> Okay. So, this is just a a core leg uh [53:47] to the stool of paid ads is UGC. Uh [53:51] clearly working. Do you think this will [53:52] work for [53:54] every company? Is this something most [53:56] B2B I don't know. Yeah, does this Do you [53:57] think this will work? [53:58] >> I think this works for everyone, and [54:00] it's like it goes back to what I was [54:01] saying. It's just finding those users [54:03] that can speak to the users you want to [54:05] acquire. And at the end of the day, one [54:06] thing that we look at at Whisper is like [54:08] the B2B side and the enterprise side is [54:10] all made up of individuals. And if you [54:12] can find a way to make your content [54:14] speak to an individual who's part of [54:15] those teams, and maybe you get them as [54:18] like a solo How do you say like a solo [54:20] customer or whatever? Um to download the [54:22] app, they use it, then they tell a [54:23] friend in the company, and then more [54:25] people in the company start using it. [54:26] And then maybe you chase down those [54:27] enterprise clients and actually close a [54:28] deal. And like, that's [54:30] realistically how most companies can [54:32] approach that at the end of the day. And [54:34] it's not like, "Oh, like who from X [54:36] company is going to watch my video and [54:38] like hop on an enterprise call and like [54:40] want to close or whatever." But, I think [54:41] if you like approach it from like [54:44] companies are made up of people, and you [54:46] just look at it like that, and you [54:47] think, "Okay, [54:48] how how do I want to sell to these [54:49] people, and how would these people [54:50] respond well to getting it sold to?" Um [54:53] I think you just have to break it down [54:54] super simply, and you're like, "Oh, [54:55] yeah, this would work for anyone." [54:57] >> Okay. That makes sense. Uh also, what [54:59] I'm hearing though is this is probably [55:00] most effective for kind of product led [55:02] growth, bottom up sort of products. Not [55:04] like a Workday or a Salesforce. More [55:07] like a Yeah, WhisperFlow or Notion and [55:10] things like that. Awesome. And you know [55:12] like if you think about it, it makes so [55:14] much sense why this would work. An [55:15] influencer innately is someone that [55:17] influences you to do something. You're [55:19] basically getting influencers slash [55:21] creators to create content that pitches [55:24] the product and then you put them in [55:25] people's feed through paid ads and I get [55:29] why it works cuz they're trying to [55:30] convince them how awesome it [55:31] >> I also I also think that a good [55:34] distinction as well as I think it's not [55:35] just an influencer or a creator. I [55:36] almost think that creators with no [55:38] following end up being better [55:39] investments for brands because [55:42] influencers kind of are seen now as [55:44] sellouts a lot of the time and like when [55:45] you see a big face or a big celebrity [55:48] like selling a product, it's like oh my [55:50] gosh this person has been selling me [55:51] things like the last 10 years. I know [55:52] she's just getting a bag or he's just [55:54] getting a bag and they're not really [55:56] genuine and there's something about like [55:58] not really knowing who the person is and [56:00] they're not famous, they don't have a [56:01] lot of followers and if you have like [56:02] these partnership ads coming from their [56:04] account, it just feels a lot more [56:05] genuine as well, so [56:06] just want to throw that out there. [56:07] >> the less they look like an influencer. [56:09] >> Exactly. [56:10] >> The less they look like they're trying [56:11] to convince you and they're just talking [56:12] like a regular human about how awesome [56:14] your product is. I get why that would [56:15] work. [56:16] >> And [56:17] >> Like what I think about right now is [56:18] there's that survey that they someone [56:20] did a while ago of just what do you want [56:21] to be when you grow up and for young [56:24] people was like creator influencer for [56:26] some [56:26] >> Yeah, stream. I think a lot of people [56:27] were saying they want to be a streamer [56:28] or live streamer. [56:29] >> Yeah, versus like astronaut or lawyer. [56:32] >> Yeah. [56:32] >> And so you know like this is a career [56:34] path is what you're describing. This is [56:36] a way you're making money doing this. A [56:37] lot of people are actually making money [56:39] being a creator online. [56:41] So for people listening that are like [56:43] wait, maybe this could be a career for [56:44] me someday, maybe I should explore this [56:46] creator life. Any advice for someone [56:48] that's embarking on this because for [56:50] many people it may feel like I will [56:52] never be as great as Hector or just [56:53] talking off the cuff on a video and [56:56] looking interesting. Any advice for [56:57] someone that's trying to explore this [56:59] path and do better? [57:00] >> I think the best advice would be to stop [57:02] looking for advice. It's [57:04] It sounds It sounds dumb but a lot of [57:06] times I'll have a lot of friends reach [57:07] out and be like hey I want to get [57:07] started and I've had this happen for [57:10] like maybe the last 3 years where people [57:11] are like, "Hey, I want to get started. I [57:12] want to start making videos like you." [57:14] And I hop on a call with them for like 2 [57:15] hours. I send them over a bunch of [57:17] different guys, PDFs, things I've made, [57:19] etc. for how they can get started. [57:22] And they don't do anything with it. And [57:23] it's like at the end of the day, if if [57:25] you're a person who's going to ask [57:26] before doing, you're probably not going [57:28] to succeed. And even the best people [57:31] I've had the privilege of working with a [57:32] lot of the most famous podcasters or [57:34] influencers or celebrities, and a lot of [57:37] these people also stutter and they also [57:40] have to refilm things and they have like [57:43] specific things that they do to like [57:44] lock back in, whether it's like weird [57:46] noises they make with their mouth or [57:47] like they fidget with their hands or [57:49] they have like a phrase they repeat over [57:50] and over again or I've even seen some [57:52] creators where they start stuttering a [57:53] lot after they've been doing um the same [57:55] scripts over and over again and they'll [57:56] put a pen in their mouth and will like [57:58] open their mouth bigger and like talk [58:00] and announce enunciate. Is that how you [58:01] say it? Enunciate the words. [58:03] >> Mhm. [58:03] >> Um like I guess more and then when they [58:06] stop and they take the pen out of their [58:08] mouth then they were able to pronounce [58:09] it better. So [58:10] it's like it's like a a natural thing as [58:12] a creator and like even if you're doing [58:13] this for 5, 10, 15 years, there's going [58:15] to be moments where you have to cut the [58:16] video or [58:18] you're going to stutter and you're going [58:19] to have to refilm for 10 times and you [58:20] might cuss out your camera and turn it [58:22] off but it's just like turn it back on [58:24] and keep filming sort of thing and and [58:25] yeah, that'd be my advice. Just get [58:26] started um and stop looking for for more [58:29] advice cuz there's no better way to [58:30] learn as a creator than [58:32] than just turning on the camera and [58:33] posting. [58:34] >> I love that advice. And what I'm also [58:36] hearing is you don't have to [58:38] like you when you don't see how much [58:39] people struggle doing this stuff. Like [58:41] you see this polished video and you [58:42] don't know they had to put a pin in [58:43] their mouth for [58:44] Yeah, exactly. [58:46] >> Or cuss out their camera. [58:47] >> Yeah. [laughter] [58:48] >> Um like even even my video that I that [58:50] went kind of viral on X, like I think [58:53] it's what? A 15-minute cut. [58:55] It's probably I did two cuts before [58:57] that. I would probably take 30 minutes. [58:59] And then I did that last one which is [59:01] probably again like 30 minutes and then [59:03] I package it into a nice video. It's [59:05] like I do this for a living and [59:10] I managed our tribe group for the last 7 [59:11] months and I know her like the like the [59:14] back of my hand or whatever and even [59:15] then I still struggle like going through [59:17] and putting my thoughts concisely and [59:19] going through everything but it's not [59:21] perfect but I put the message out I gave [59:22] some value and people enjoyed it and [59:24] yeah I don't think I don't think it [59:25] needs to be perfect. [59:26] >> That's so great to hear cuz watching my [59:28] video you're just so chill so relaxed [59:29] just sitting there talking with a little [59:31] iPad and like how yeah people see that [59:33] and like I will never be as good at [59:34] this. So that's really helpful to hear. [59:36] When I think about starting to create [59:39] being a content creator I feel like I [59:40] need to get a little fuzzy mic or [59:41] something. You feel like the step one. [59:43] >> It's a Canon of it's a Canon of a mic. [59:46] >> That's right. [59:46] >> [laughter] [59:47] >> You're not a creator unless you have a [59:48] tiny fuzzy little mic. [59:49] >> Yeah. [59:49] >> Um let me ask you one final question [59:51] along these lines. Say someone is like [59:54] amazing I'm going to do this. We're [59:55] going to commit to this. We're going to [59:56] hire. We're going to find someone to run [59:57] it. [59:58] What are some of the most common [60:00] mistakes you find companies people make [60:03] when they're starting on this paid UGC [60:05] route? [60:05] >> I think a lot of the times is [60:08] people will typically look in the wrong [60:11] places and will maybe put out offers [60:15] online or on LinkedIn or whatever with [60:17] too high of salaries or too high like I [60:21] guess like requirements and you're not [60:23] going to end up attracting the best [60:25] people like if you put out an offer [60:26] where you're going to pay I don't know [60:27] like oh these people who are running UGC [60:29] campaigns are in super high demand I'm [60:31] going to put out a job listing for 250k [60:34] 200k base salary uh generous equity [60:36] you're going to end up attracting the [60:37] wrong type of people um [60:39] like when I joined Whisper and when Tuan [60:41] joined Whisper I can tell you we were [60:43] earning nowhere near that um we were [60:45] interns and we're just hungry kids who [60:47] wanted to learn and wanted to grow and [60:48] again had some experience with content [60:50] and I think if you just think that [60:52] throwing money out there and looking for [60:54] someone with the best grades or the best [60:55] school or the best experience [60:57] is going to get you the best hire to run [60:59] this for you you're in for a rude [61:00] awakening [61:01] um and yeah I would focus on just [61:03] finding a scrappy kid who's hungry and [61:06] willing to learn and like I don't know [61:07] you just got a good feeling [61:09] from them like I I was telling you this [61:10] the other day recently as well the other [61:11] day our first call [61:13] so I had a first call with Julia which [61:15] she was like leading our marketing team [61:16] initially when there was like four [61:18] people. And then I had a second call [61:19] with Tanay, and I remember like my new [61:21] they're hiring me as a UGC creator. I'm [61:24] 19 years old. I've never worked in a [61:26] startup. And I'm probably [61:30] I was not earning much money, and I told [61:33] Tanay like I was like, "I want equity in [61:35] Whisper." And Tanay laughed and was [61:36] like, "I like you, man." And like maybe [61:38] it was like a stupid thing to say, but [61:39] like I think it showed how like I don't [61:41] know. I was naive, but also hungry and [61:42] like I believe in the company and I want [61:44] to be part of the company. And just like [61:45] cues like that where it's like a young, [61:47] naive, hungry kid [61:49] who just wants in and wants to learn and [61:51] wants to grow. And then yeah, I think [61:53] don't look in the right place. Don't [61:54] want to look in the wrong places cuz [61:56] you're going to attract the wrong [61:57] people. [61:58] >> You had a couple of awesome tweets along [61:59] these lines. [62:00] One is that everyone looking for a [62:01] marketer with the best resume is going [62:03] to end up hiring a bot. [62:04] >> Yeah. [62:06] >> [laughter] [62:07] >> And then the other is this really [62:08] important tweet that the most successful [62:11] founders, investors, creators I've met [62:12] aren't the most talented. They're [62:14] delusionally confident, they outwork [62:16] everyone, and they love what they do. [62:18] >> Yeah. I think that pretty much sums it [62:20] up. And also another one that I that I [62:22] resonate with a lot that I that I put [62:23] out recently was like the the sports [62:26] outlook on hiring. Sports teams, like I [62:28] come from a very competitive sports [62:29] background. I played over in Spain, I [62:31] played for Real Vigo in La Liga Academy, [62:33] I played MLS Next in the US, I played [62:34] Division 1 in college. And like we have [62:36] all these structures for sports teams [62:38] where it's like you scout young talent, [62:40] you bring them in, you coach them, you [62:41] develop them for 10 years. And then like [62:44] if you're over in Spain or over in [62:45] Europe, um you eventually like get them [62:47] as part of your academy, maybe the [62:48] second team, and then maybe you sell [62:50] them to a top club. Or maybe they end up [62:52] becoming a homegrown contract or and [62:55] they join like your first team. And it's [62:56] like I think [62:57] a lot of startups should kind of adopt [62:59] that mentality. Like I [63:00] I think there's a lot of companies that [63:01] actually don't do internship programs [63:03] anymore. They don't think they're [63:04] valuable. And I think they're one of the [63:05] most valuable things, and if you can [63:06] find the right people, it's not a very [63:09] expensive thing to do. It's not very [63:10] time-consuming. Um and yeah, I think [63:13] like taking a chance on young on young [63:16] people and giving them some money to to [63:19] test things with and giving them some [63:20] freedom to test things with um [63:23] and like allowing them to fail and [63:24] continue learning [63:25] was like one of the best models I think [63:27] you can pick up from sports and like [63:28] obviously it works like I don't know if [63:30] you're very familiar with soccer but I [63:31] mean like look at Lamine Yamal like just [63:33] won the World Cup at what 19 years old [63:35] 18 years old and I I think that same [63:37] approach can be applied to to the [63:39] startup world like find young talent [63:40] invest in them [63:42] let them get real reps in the real world [63:44] and then eventually they'll might be [63:45] come one of your A players. [63:47] >> I love that. [63:48] Uh and I love that also part of this is [63:50] giving them time to figure it out. [63:51] >> Yeah. [63:53] 100% [63:53] >> What's really interesting about this [63:54] conversation so far I'm realizing is I [63:56] don't think we've once mentioned AI [63:58] as a part of this work that you do which [64:01] is really interesting because it's you [64:03] know it's it's all anyone talks about [64:05] these days and you actually had this [64:06] tweet the other day the best marketers [64:08] are allergic to AI. [64:10] Talk about just what you what you think [64:12] with how AI plays into this and how AI [64:14] should not play into this. [64:15] >> I just think like overall when you look [64:17] at a lot of the work done like even like [64:19] looking at the top labs like they are [64:22] some of the people that have the most [64:23] amount of humans actually working on a [64:25] specific asset and like maybe yes they [64:27] have a lot of the research automated or [64:30] a lot of different steps like internally [64:32] automated but the actual production of [64:33] the asset whether it comes to the video [64:35] the design in Figma [64:37] um the editing the post production etc. [64:39] it's all done by teams of a lot of [64:41] humans and I think there's not going to [64:44] be a real way to get around on that at [64:46] least not anytime soon and especially [64:49] in like the environment we're in now [64:51] where a lot of people are very [64:53] I guess turned off by AI and it can be a [64:56] scary like thing to talk about. If [64:58] you're an AI company like Whisper who in [65:00] theory we enable humans to do better [65:02] work we don't want to replace anyone's [65:03] job want to give them I guess the tools [65:06] to be able to be more productive to do [65:07] more work and to sound more naturally [65:09] and to sound like themselves more [65:10] naturally. If we on the other side go [65:13] out and start making AI slop ads [65:16] and videos with AI influencers and I [65:19] don't know AI designs and AI statics, [65:22] it's probably not going to be received [65:23] really well and it just it looks off and [65:25] like when I say that I think it goes [65:27] more towards [65:28] not automating the work that's going to [65:30] be the final product that people are [65:32] looking at. Um, because I think you see [65:34] it a lot of times like it'll [65:35] it'll end up blowing back on on the [65:37] companies where whether it's like an [65:38] animation that they made with Claude or [65:41] um, some sort of asset that they made [65:43] and maybe there's typos or maybe the [65:45] writing is like all jumbled up like what [65:46] happens when you do it with with open it [65:48] with chat GPT or whatever. Um, and yeah, [65:52] I think it's it's not worth it. Like the [65:54] risk versus reward is not worth it. [65:55] >> So the alpha what I'm hearing here is [65:56] like don't use AI for this work. [66:00] >> Yeah, for for the final output [66:01] especially on the creative side like [66:03] what other people are going to see I I [66:05] don't think AI should should touch yet. [66:07] >> That is really interesting. Like, you [66:09] know, people it feels like everyone's [66:10] hearing leaning to AI. [66:11] >> Yeah. Even even [66:13] even one of the most bullish people on [66:16] AI that I know, um, Matt who is now at [66:19] at Victor or exited growth, he has the [66:22] most automations I've ever seen in the [66:24] whole wide world, but even then like [66:26] that last um, like 10% that's the most [66:29] important always has a human on the [66:31] endpoint because you can't sacrifice as [66:33] a brand having something blow up because [66:35] you had something screw up or come out [66:37] wrong or or whatever. And yeah, I think [66:40] with everyone [66:42] I think with everyone also just shipping [66:43] so much volume and like whether it be on [66:45] X, on LinkedIn, on Instagram, on [66:47] YouTube, [66:49] like you're able now to make videos with [66:51] Claude, you're able to to have the [66:53] edited them, you're able to make um, [66:55] what's it called? [66:57] You're able to make like a doppelganger [66:58] of yourself with AI and and all these [67:00] different things and get content out [67:02] faster and have these automations for [67:04] tweets and have it like post news [67:06] articles and whatever and retweet it in [67:07] whatever way. There's so much noise like [67:09] you're saying that if you actually focus [67:11] more on the quality and less on the [67:13] quantity and less on building all these [67:15] crazy automations and hitting volume for [67:17] just hitting volume's sake, it gets so [67:19] easy to cut through the noise. And so if [67:21] you actually have real value, you [67:24] package it well, and you post [67:27] like not a lot, you post with with [67:28] purpose and for actual reason, um you [67:31] can cut through really easily as a brand [67:33] or as a company. Like I think another [67:34] good example of this is also today's [67:36] YouTube channel. We started it around [67:38] like what? 3 months ago, and five [67:40] YouTube videos in we're like millions [67:42] and millions of views, 20,000 or 21,000 [67:46] subscribers on YouTube, which is one of [67:47] the hardest platforms to grow. And like [67:49] a lot of people think, oh we're starting [67:51] a YouTube channel, we need to post three [67:52] videos a week. And it's like, no. Like [67:54] if you actually put in the time and [67:55] effort, and you tell a really good [67:57] story, and you do everything with [67:59] purpose, and you package it really well, [68:00] and you have a really good team of [68:01] humans actually touching everything in [68:03] there, um you get really good end [68:05] product, and people actually can see the [68:07] effort you put into it. [68:08] >> That's actually where I was going to go, [68:09] and this could be our final thread to [68:10] chat through is just this uh [68:13] other lever, which is I don't know if [68:15] you just got his founder-led growth, or [68:17] >> Yeah, founder-led content. [68:19] >> Founder-led content. [68:20] Just give us kind of a sense of that [68:22] growth opportunity, what you're seeing [68:24] there, the opportunity to drive growth [68:26] for your product through founder-led [68:27] content. [68:28] >> Yeah, I think I think it also ties into [68:29] what we just talked about like so much [68:31] AI and so much ads and companies, etc. [68:34] And at the end of the day, it also it [68:36] ties back to everything in content [68:38] creator and people. Like at the end of [68:39] the day, people buy from people, people [68:41] invest in people, and I think having a [68:44] founder who can put his face out there, [68:47] can talk on camera, you can use in ads, [68:50] you can use to tell the story, [68:51] it makes the company and the product [68:54] feel that much more human. And like when [68:56] you compare two products, [68:58] um I would much rather like even from my [69:00] own experience, like if I follow um I [69:03] don't know, let's say I follow George [69:06] Heaton, who's the founder of Represent. [69:08] He has like a clothing brand. And then [69:09] there's another ad that I see for a [69:11] clothing brand, I'm much more going to [69:13] buy the product, George's product, [69:15] because I know how he works. I know his [69:17] routine. I know the type of person he [69:18] is. I know what he stands for. I know [69:20] how hard he works um for his company and [69:23] what he actually puts into it. And I [69:25] think people really appreciate that and [69:26] again such a digital age like being able [69:28] to connect with the founder behind the [69:29] product. And you not only like create [69:32] super fans and like [69:34] people who already use your product but [69:35] now also love you. You also bring in [69:37] like this new group of people who have [69:38] never seen your product. They don't [69:40] really know who you are and then slowly [69:42] they start to like like the content [69:43] you're putting out. They start to buy [69:44] into the mission. They start to buy into [69:46] the company. And then they actually try [69:47] the product and it's like this long like [69:49] horizon type play. I don't know this [69:51] like long-term play that you have to [69:53] make and it's an investment because you [69:55] can't just start a YouTube channel or [69:56] founder led brand and instantly start [69:58] selling at people because people are [70:00] just going to switch off and be like, [70:00] "Okay, I don't want to be part of this [70:02] anymore." But if you just give a lot of [70:03] value, you over share, you over deliver, [70:06] and you just open up the doors into like [70:07] what the culture is like, what you're [70:08] building. People really appreciate that [70:10] and you get them to buy in and like drop [70:12] their guards. And then maybe a year in [70:14] we actually like maybe have like a soft [70:15] seller. Maybe we have to have like, "Hey [70:17] guys, here's like some support. Thanks [70:19] for getting us 100,000 subscribers. Just [70:21] want to drop this code. Blah blah." And [70:22] then people are to want to support you. [70:24] Um so I think again like in this world [70:26] where everyone's just trying to get like [70:27] instant growth and everything's super [70:29] fast and optimize everything from the [70:31] start. [70:32] These like channels that maybe don't [70:33] have any direct correlations in the [70:35] present moment end up being some of the [70:36] best long-term plays and also brand [70:38] building plays. [70:39] >> What are some of the kind of angles [70:41] slash stories that seem to work well [70:43] when you're doing this sort of founder [70:44] led content? Is it like here's the story [70:46] of our company? [70:47] >> Yeah. [70:47] >> Is there anything there? [70:48] >> So the way we kind of thought about it [70:49] at Whisper is it's like [70:51] at Whisper at honestly any company is [70:53] like every company is going to have some [70:55] sort of story or some sort of mission [70:57] that they're building towards. For us at [70:59] Whisper it's getting to one being 1 [71:01] billion daily active users. And that's [71:03] like everything [71:05] everything we do at Whisper is to get [71:06] towards that goal. And when we look at [71:08] the content we make, everything needs to [71:10] play back into that story. And it's [71:11] almost like you're building this Netflix [71:13] series where each episode is obviously [71:15] going to be different but it all ties [71:16] back into the overarching theme. And [71:18] like whether you're again building in [71:21] medicine or [71:23] dev tools or whatever it is, there's [71:25] going to be some sort of mission that [71:26] you're chasing as a company. And you [71:28] want to bring people along for that [71:29] ride. And if you tie that into every [71:30] episode or into every LinkedIn post, [71:32] every X post, um obviously like the [71:34] formatting and the messaging is [71:35] different on every platform, but if you [71:37] like kind of tie all of this together, [71:38] it like brings everyone along from for [71:40] the journey, and it makes it a lot [71:41] easier to grasp, and also a lot easier [71:43] to build off of because you're like, [71:45] "Okay, this is the the vision, this is [71:47] what we're building towards, and this is [71:48] how each step actually leads us to [71:49] that." It's our mission. It's almost [71:51] like a physical representation of like a [71:53] product roadmap or what's actually [71:54] happening to the company, like showing [71:56] it on on display to the world, the ups, [71:58] the downs, the struggles, everything. [72:01] That's kind of how we think about it at [72:02] at Whispers, and how I think other [72:03] companies should think about it as well. [72:04] >> That's awesome advice. Basically, have [72:06] like a North Star, like a North Star [72:08] metric that you're chasing. [72:09] >> Yeah. And the journey there, and things [72:10] you're learning. [72:11] >> Things that are surprising. And we'll [72:13] point people to the channel to give them [72:15] a sense of what you're actually doing [72:16] there. [72:16] >> Yeah, it's just uh Tanay Kothari, and [72:19] yeah, we just document everything on [72:20] there, like the episodes. [72:22] They we we basically done everything [72:24] from like showing how we launched our [72:26] new product note taker to Tanay going to [72:28] India and doing wedding shopping, and [72:30] like also working remote and how he [72:32] balances that and his relationship with [72:33] Sahaj, um to like just a week in the [72:35] life of a founder. Uh we also did a [72:37] whiteboard breakdown where I spoke with [72:39] Tanay. And it's like all these different [72:40] formats that all might feel different [72:42] and look different, but they end up like [72:43] building towards this like bigger vision [72:45] of what Whispers building towards. [72:46] >> I imagine there's already some innate [72:48] interest in Whisper Flow by when you [72:50] started it. It's like a company people [72:52] when they see it, they're like, "Oh, I [72:53] want to." [72:53] >> So, there's probably a bit of like you [72:55] can't start that from the beginning when [72:56] no one cares about what the no one cares [72:58] what you've learned cuz no one cares [72:59] about your company yet. [73:00] >> Um I I honestly think you can start it [73:02] though. But like maybe it put us in a a [73:05] bit better of a position, but I mean [73:06] there's founders who don't have as [73:09] brands as big as as Whisper who have [73:11] found success with personal brand [73:12] content. And again, it's like a gateway [73:14] uh into um the actual brand. And it's [73:17] like what easier way to to make that [73:19] accessible than through a person who's [73:20] just telling their story and getting [73:22] value. [73:22] >> And so interestingly, this is just [73:24] another, let's say, alpha opportunity to [73:26] grow, which is the founder sharing their [73:29] story in a really compelling way. [73:30] >> And and and you see like everything [73:31] starts to tie in as well because [73:33] the more places you show up organically [73:36] and the more touch points you have with [73:38] the customer, the cheaper it's going to [73:39] get when it comes to paid because what [73:41] is it? I think a customer needs to [73:44] a person needs to see a piece of content [73:45] of a company like seven times before [73:47] they actually make a purchase. If you're [73:48] able to hit them on YouTube long form, [73:50] which is a bunch of trust built up since [73:52] it's a long form platform and then [73:54] you're also posting Instagram reels from [73:55] the founder. You're also posting on [73:57] LinkedIn. Then when they get to my on [73:58] the first ad they see, they're going to [74:00] convert. [74:01] So like I think these organic channels [74:03] work hand in hand with paid. Like the [74:05] more that you have activated and the [74:06] more you have running, the cheaper all [74:08] the conversions get across all [74:09] platforms. [74:10] >> And then your paid platform gets credit [74:11] for that conversion. [74:13] >> Exactly. [74:14] >> [laughter] [74:15] >> A final thing I just want to talk [74:16] through briefly. You had this awesome [74:18] video where you share what the team [74:20] looks like to do [74:22] founder-led content. I'll briefly share [74:24] cuz I think this is really important for [74:25] people. I will point to the video where [74:27] you go deeper. Basically, it's a head of [74:29] content, a videographer to film you, a [74:32] YouTube team to package it, and short [74:34] form editor to take it and create clips. [74:37] >> Yes, exactly. [74:39] >> The content person, would that be you? [74:40] Like are you that person also doing the [74:42] UGC paid stuff? [74:44] >> Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So [74:46] Yeah, so I'm the head of content and [74:47] that's why [74:49] if you find a young person who [74:50] understands content, they they can [74:51] basically do anything whether it's [74:52] organic, whether it's paid. [74:55] Um [74:55] and that's why it's important to find [74:56] someone with a following as well because [74:58] again, I understand how to build a [75:00] following [75:02] and I know how to build a team now and [75:06] the funny thing is like how I was [75:07] mentioning previously is like every [75:09] person that's part of my team, whether [75:10] it be for UGC or whether it be for the [75:13] founder-led content team, I hired them [75:15] from my Instagram stories. [75:18] The way I got our videographer, he's 24 [75:20] years old. [75:22] I posted on my Instagram story. I think [75:23] it was in May, like right after my [75:24] college graduation. I posted looking for [75:26] a videographer full-time in San [75:28] Francisco. Slide up if you're the right [75:30] fit. I probably had like I don't know, [75:32] 80 people reply on my story. And then [75:34] from there, there was this kid named [75:36] Alex. He was in Australia at the time. [75:38] He was an American like vacationing in [75:40] Australia. And he seemed like a great [75:42] fit and we flew him out to San Francisco [75:43] like on 3-day notice and we got him [75:45] started. And then same for the YouTube [75:46] agency. Um we met through Instagram and [75:48] now they're some of my close friends, so [75:50] it's like [75:51] typically the best social people you [75:52] also find on social platforms. Sort of [75:54] how it goes. [75:55] >> There's just so much win from having an [75:57] audience. It's a win we're going [75:58] >> Yeah. [75:59] >> take away from that. [76:00] >> 100%. [76:00] >> From your story. Uh okay, so one last [76:02] tidbit you shared in this video that [76:04] we'll share is so you have this head of [76:05] content, there's Hector, there's someone [76:07] filming videographer, there's YouTube [76:08] team short form. You actually shared the [76:10] YouTube packaging team. If you had to [76:12] kind of pick which needs to be stronger, [76:14] you found the the YouTube team needs to [76:16] is is more important than even the [76:18] quality of the video. [76:19] >> Yeah, YouTube is generally one of the [76:21] hardest platforms, which is why when you [76:22] said Instagram or YouTube, I backtracked [76:24] and I was like, "Actually, YouTube is [76:25] very important." And that's actually [76:26] where I started as well. And I saw how [76:28] much goes into making YouTube videos. [76:30] Like it's not just oh, you make a video, [76:32] you post it, and you put a thumbnail and [76:34] some sort of picture, and then you're [76:35] good. It's like [76:36] at the end of the day, the way I like to [76:37] think about it is you could have a [76:38] masterpiece of a video. You can make a [76:39] Hollywood production movie. But if you [76:42] put a bad thumbnail and a bad title that [76:44] doesn't intrigue people to click on it, [76:46] no one's actually going to know how good [76:47] your video is. So you might have [76:49] invested all this time, all this money, [76:50] all this energy and effort into making [76:52] this masterpiece of a video, but if you [76:54] don't understand how YouTube works and [76:55] how it's actually going to rank the [76:57] highest, um you're not going to get the [76:59] results you want. And that's why I think [77:02] the YouTube side is so important because [77:03] it's not only a thumbnail, it's not only [77:04] the click-through rate, it's not only [77:05] the title, the the watch or the average [77:07] view duration. [77:09] It's also like the storytelling, the [77:11] pacing, how you package it, the intro, [77:13] how like the thumbnail needs to tie into [77:16] the video and there actually needs some [77:17] needs to be some sort of payoff because [77:18] if you don't, then you're going to have [77:19] more of a drop-off rate and people [77:20] aren't going to stick along to actually [77:21] watch the video. [77:23] Um and like the better your YouTube team [77:25] is, the easier it makes it for the short [77:27] form side because typically the people [77:29] that you're using for short form maybe [77:31] aren't as I guess they're not as [77:34] committed because [77:36] they typically have a lot of clients and [77:37] they're overseas as well. Like a lot of [77:38] our short-form editors are from Germany. [77:41] Um we have one as well in Romania, I [77:43] think. And then one in Australia. [77:46] And they're really good short-form [77:47] editors, but they again want to get a [77:49] lot of clicks out. So, they're not going [77:50] to pay as much of attention to the [77:52] actual storytelling. They're not going [77:54] to be that good with the clip selection. [77:55] So, if I send them 40 hours of footage, [77:58] I might not get back the best clips. [77:59] Whereas if my YouTube team is really [78:01] good in the post-production, they cut a [78:03] super good video, then I can send that [78:05] to my editors in like a clean slate with [78:07] no titles, no music, etc. And they can [78:09] just cut the best moments and make it [78:11] into like really good short-form pieces. [78:12] Um and that's that's kind of the reason [78:14] why I say the long-form team is the most [78:15] important part. And it's also the one [78:17] that has the most likes. Like YouTube [78:19] videos can can run on for ages and ages. [78:21] Like even on my own personal channel, [78:23] I've had a video that's been up now for [78:24] like 5 years. And I think like a year [78:27] ago, it was at like what, 40,000 views. [78:29] Now it's like 600,000 views. And it's [78:31] like YouTube videos have so like the [78:34] longest half-life out of any platform [78:35] and it's truly insane. Like some of the [78:37] videos we post on today's channel might [78:39] be like 5, 6 million views in a few [78:40] years. [78:41] Um and that's what's cool about YouTube. [78:42] It's like a long-term investment. [78:44] >> Uh I've discovered very similar things [78:45] with YouTube. It's a wondrous platform. [78:48] It's maybe the only platform where you [78:50] can discover where new people discover [78:52] you at scale. [78:53] >> Yeah, it's insane. And it's like a lot [78:55] of these platforms, I like trust me, I [78:57] enjoy making content, but sometimes it's [78:59] like a bit demotivating when it's like, [79:00] "Oh, you filmed one piece of content, [79:02] you posted it. You got to make the new [79:03] one." And so, obviously with YouTube you [79:04] have to as well, but you reap those [79:06] rewards as well long-term. It's not like [79:07] on Instagram um where you post a video [79:09] and in 48 hours it's dead. It's like a [79:11] YouTube video, you put a lot of effort [79:13] into it, and we look at some of the [79:14] charts on today's videos, and like we're [79:16] still getting 10,000 views um [79:19] in like the last 48 hours, even though [79:21] it's been like 3 months since it's been [79:22] posted. Like it's still working for us. [79:23] It's still getting new eyeballs and new [79:24] customers. Um so, yeah, YouTube is [79:27] YouTube is amazing. I I I I assume also [79:29] with how many podcasts you have as well, [79:31] like the amount of views you're getting [79:32] from like years and years back or [79:34] whatever is is pretty insane. [79:36] >> Yeah, it's fun to watch videos that have [79:38] kind of climb the ranks over time. I had [79:41] Elizabeth Stone in the podcast. She's C [79:43] P T O at Netflix and she slowly has [79:46] climbed the charts to She's right behind [79:48] number one now. She's like climbing on [79:50] She's approaching number one and so like [79:52] you think these are like stuck at that [79:54] number but they just keep going going [79:55] It's like this and all of a sudden it [79:56] just goes like this and you're like oh I [79:58] did not expect that. I don't know. I [79:59] don't know. I don't get a lot of those [80:00] where it's just inflecting but it it [80:02] does grow and it's like wow I did not [80:04] know that was still growing and [80:05] >> Yeah. [80:06] >> Anyway, Hector, this was incredible. [80:10] Before we get to our very exciting [80:12] lightning round, is there anything else [80:14] that you want to share or anything else [80:16] you want to kind of double down on and [80:18] leave listeners with? [80:19] >> I guess my last point which I mentioned [80:21] a lot is like I would just urge other [80:23] founders out there like give a chance [80:25] like young talent and [80:28] yeah, just just find those people, [80:29] believe in them, trust in them, give [80:31] them opportunities and [80:34] yeah, like [80:36] not only will they turn into some of [80:37] your best A players but also the amount [80:39] of loyalty [80:40] they will have to is quite incredible [80:41] and whether they stay at your company or [80:43] they go go on to do other things like [80:44] they will always be there to help you or [80:46] help you bring in other young talent [80:48] or guide you in the right direction when [80:50] things when not new alphas out there [80:53] and yeah, I'm super grateful to Tanay [80:54] and Daniel and the whole Vista team for [80:56] like taking a shot on me and there's no [80:58] better place I think I could have I [81:00] could have landed and I'm like forever [81:03] in debt or however you should say that [81:04] but I'm just super grateful for the the [81:06] opportunity I was given. [81:08] >> That's beautiful. [81:09] Well, with that we've reached our very [81:12] exciting lightning round. I've got five [81:14] questions for you. Are you ready? I've [81:16] seen these. I've seen these in the in [81:17] the in the podcast. Won't be a surprise. [81:20] Okay, here we go. First question, what [81:22] are two or three books that you find [81:24] yourself recommending most to other [81:25] people? [81:26] >> One of my I'm going to give one book. [81:27] I'm going to give one really good book [81:28] which might be a [81:30] cliche one but Naval Ravikant's Almanac. [81:34] I remember reading that about two years [81:36] ago or maybe a year and a half ago. Um [81:39] and [81:40] it was like kind of in this moment where [81:43] I wasn't like I was sure I wanted to do [81:44] content, but I also didn't understand [81:46] why it was important or why it mattered [81:48] so much and like I read it the first [81:49] time, didn't really make that much sense [81:51] to me. [81:52] And then I like gave me some time and [81:54] then things started to like line up like [81:56] it said it kind of in the book and like [81:58] how [81:59] um [82:00] how how does he say like media is like [82:02] one of the best forms of leverage [82:04] because you don't have to ask for [82:05] permission, it's permissionless leverage [82:06] and you can just make stuff and put it [82:08] out in the internet and it will continue [82:09] to work for you. [82:11] Um, and like I started to see that [82:12] compounding effect over time of like me [82:14] putting myself out there and it's a book [82:16] I continue to find myself coming back to [82:18] and reading. [82:20] Um, I bought it for my little brother as [82:21] well recently. Um, [82:23] and it's like something I'm I'm always [82:24] sharing with friends and always passing [82:26] on to them to read as well. And I feel [82:28] like it gives direction a lot to like [82:30] young people as well um in this crazy [82:32] world that we live in so I know you say [82:33] that's one of my favorite books I've [82:35] I've read. [82:36] >> Yeah, and I've all went through this era [82:37] of just sharing this profound advice on [82:39] Twitter and then he kind of slowed down [82:40] and and I love that there's a book that [82:42] collects it all. [82:43] Um, and I love that. So much of advice [82:45] you to like you see it and you're like [82:46] yeah, it's fine and then you think back [82:48] to wow, he was so damn right. [82:50] >> Have you have you read uh what's it Ego [82:52] is the enemy? [82:53] >> Is that a is that a book or is that one [82:54] of his lines? [82:55] >> No, it's a it's a new book. I think I [82:57] think it's called something like I was [82:58] just wondering if you read it because I [82:58] was interested in in in reading it. I [83:00] was about to buy it. Um, I need to go to [83:02] a bookstore. It's not the only bookstore [83:03] in Puerto Rico. Um, but yeah, I'm [83:05] looking for a new book so if anyone [83:06] wants to drop some comments on the video [83:08] um [83:08] >> Okay. Does Amazon deliver to Puerto [83:10] Rico? [83:11] >> Yes, but it's like a bit it takes it [83:14] takes a while living on an island. [83:16] Everything is a a lot lower lot slower [83:18] less dopamine rush. You don't get [83:20] 24-hour delivery. [83:22] >> I love that. Okay, next question. Do you [83:23] have a favorite recent movie or TV show [83:25] you have really enjoyed? [83:26] >> I just watched the Elizabeth Holmes [83:28] movie with my girlfriend. [83:31] Yeah, I'm not going to spoil it but wow. [83:33] It was a really good movie. [83:35] >> One thing that someone shared from the [83:36] trailer, this is no spoiler. Uh when [83:39] when he's you know that trailer when [83:41] they're kind of staring at each other [83:42] and he kind of puts his tongue in his [83:44] mouth like his mouth is kind of doing [83:45] something funny. [83:46] >> Yeah. [83:47] >> Uh he [83:48] Turns out when he's trying not to laugh [83:50] or just get break character, he puts his [83:52] tongue against his molars and just [83:54] presses against them to keep himself [83:56] from laughing. [83:57] How about that? [83:58] >> I did not know that. Yeah. But yeah, it [84:00] was it was a good movie. I liked it. [84:02] >> Epic. [84:03] All right, next question. Favorite [84:04] {slash} most interesting AI product [84:07] you're using right now. Uh ideally not [84:09] WhisperFlow. [84:10] >> Honestly, I got to get I commented on [84:12] your your post the other day, Miso. I [84:15] don't know. Did you end up downloading [84:16] it or not? [84:16] >> I just tried to check it out. It's like [84:18] a travel tool, right? [84:20] >> Yeah, it's a travel agent, and I travel [84:23] a lot. I think I have like 55 flights or [84:25] 60 so far this year. [84:26] >> Jeez. [84:27] >> Um like 89,000 miles, and [84:31] traveling is always something I'm like [84:32] not looking forward to because it gets [84:34] pretty tiring like having to book the [84:35] flights and everything. Um and I [84:37] recently came across this product when [84:38] they launched on X, and I DM'd the [84:40] founders on Instagram, and I was like, [84:42] "Yo, get me off the wait list. Like I [84:43] want to try this out." And ever since I [84:45] downloaded it, it's now been like 3 [84:46] months. Like I can't stop using it and [84:48] recommending it to friends. And like [84:49] just an example, like the other day, I [84:52] slept through my alarm, and I missed my [84:54] flight to SF from PR. [84:56] And [84:57] I texted I woke up. I texted Miso. I was [84:59] like, "Hey, I missed my flight. Can you [85:00] get me on the next one?" And I didn't [85:02] have to do anything else. Like took care [85:04] of everything, booked me on the next [85:05] flight in like 2 hours. [85:08] I just chilled, didn't have to pay [85:09] anything extra. Um Yeah, it's like it's [85:12] like the best travel agent I've tried [85:13] before. Um like obviously Instinct is is [85:15] a good agent and everything, but I don't [85:16] think for travel it's anywhere as fast. [85:19] And then what's also cool about Miso [85:21] is they have humans on the back end that [85:23] will escalate things. Like if they if [85:24] the agent gets stuck, they have like [85:26] direct connections to every major [85:28] airline um and everything, and they can [85:29] escalate things and take care of it for [85:31] you. So, [85:32] it's like a lifesaver. I can just text [85:33] and say, "Hey, I want a flight." And it [85:35] knows, and it'll just send to me, and [85:37] I'll get it booked in like 2 minutes. [85:38] >> That is extremely cool. I looked it up. [85:40] It's just miso.com? [85:41] >> Yeah. [85:41] >> miso.com. What an amazing domain. Uh I [85:44] imagine no affiliation. You're just a [85:45] fan. and just like [85:46] >> Yeah, no affiliation. [85:48] >> So cool. Okay, go Mesa. Okay, two more [85:51] questions. Do you have a favorite life [85:53] motto that you often come back to in [85:54] work or in life? [85:56] >> Yes, I have a I have a life motto that I [85:58] like a lot. I don't know if I'm going to [85:59] butcher this, so maybe you can help me, [86:01] but [86:01] it's from Steve Jobs that you can't [86:03] always connect the the dots looking [86:05] forward, but you can always connect them [86:06] looking backwards. And like when I look [86:08] into my own life, like [86:11] I see that basically in everything. Like [86:12] I was never the smartest kid kid in [86:14] school. Like my parents were always [86:15] pretty frustrated with me. I had really [86:16] bad ADHD. [86:18] Like soccer was the only thing I had, [86:20] and then I lost it, and then I was like [86:23] lost for for a few months even though I [86:24] was at Whisper, and [86:25] I didn't really understand all the [86:26] things that were happening or why I even [86:27] picked up a camera when I was 16 or why [86:29] I started posting on YouTube or why I [86:31] played sports. And like now looking [86:33] back, like everything is so clear, makes [86:35] so much sense, and like I understand the [86:36] path I'm on on life. And like I think [86:38] sometimes you just got to keep going, [86:40] and and then it'll all make sense at the [86:41] end. And like yeah, I think that's one [86:43] of my favorite quotes I would back on. [86:45] >> I also find that to be very true, and [86:47] Steve Jobs nailed it again. [86:50] Hector, this was incredible. Thank you [86:52] so much for sharing so much. You're [86:53] awesome. [86:55] Final question, how can listeners be [86:56] useful to you? [86:58] >> I mean, if you guys want to follow me on [87:00] X or on Instagram or YouTube, whatever [87:03] you guys want. [87:04] Come and join the [87:06] the journey. [87:08] >> And your [87:09] your handle is just Hector Serrano [87:11] Serrano. [87:12] >> Yeah, it's it's pretty it's it's pretty [87:14] similar across platforms. It's like [87:15] Hector Serrano. You'll you'll find me [87:17] one way or another, but [87:18] yeah. [87:19] >> Hector, thank you so much for being [87:20] here. [87:20] >> Thank you. Thank you. [87:22] >> Everyone. [87:24] Thank you so much for listening. If you [87:25] found this valuable, you can subscribe [87:27] to the show on Apple Podcasts, [music] [87:28] Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. [87:31] Also, please consider giving us a rating [87:33] or leaving a review as that really helps [87:36] other listeners find the podcast. You [87:38] can find all past episodes or learn more [87:40] about the show at lennyspodcast.com. [87:43] See you in the next episode.