Joe Rogan Experience #1361 - Cmdr. David Fravor & Jeremy Corbell

乔·罗根体验 #1361 - 大卫·弗拉沃中校与杰里米·科贝尔 大卫·弗拉沃中校详尽且亲历性地提供了技术层面的记述，讲述了他于2004年11月在尼米兹号航母打击群训练期间，在圣迭戈海岸附近与异常的“Tic Tac”飞行物相遇的经历。他详细阐述了目视接触过程、普林斯顿号巡洋舰的雷达追踪，以及ATFLIR瞄准吊舱记录到的主动干扰和违背常规空气动力学的飞行特征。在与杰里米·科贝尔的交谈中，对话还探讨了东海岸的“Gimbal”和“Go Fast”遭遇事件、非反作用力推进的含义，以及围绕AATIP和AAWSAP等政府项目的官僚式保密运作。讨论强调，经过审查的军方证词与多传感器协同佐证相结合，已将不明空中现象从边缘民间传闻推向了严肃的国家安全议题。 大卫·弗拉沃中校回忆了2004年在圣迭戈附近执行训练任务期间目视拦截40英尺长的“Tic Tac”物体的经历，观察到其具有瞬间加速能力，且没有可见的飞行控制面或热排气。 (9:02) 在接替的飞行员查德·安德伍德录下已解密的ATFLIR视频之前，该不明飞行物对前来拦截的超级大黄蜂战机实施了主动雷达干扰，该能力在法律上被归类为战争行为。 (13:15) 2015年海军在东海岸的遭遇涉及不同的构型，具体为包裹着立方体的半透明球体，它们在90节的风速中保持完全静止，从而引发了军方正式发布飞行安全警告。 (34:16) 杰里米·科贝尔和弗拉沃强调，在多起军方事件中观察到的飞行器特征表明其采用非反作用力引力场推进，从而规避了标准的空气阻力和过载限制。 (69:54)

Retired US Navy Commander David Fravor and filmmaker Jeremy Corbell detail the 2004 USS Nimitz 'Tic Tac' encounter, arguing that corroborated military sensor data and trained aviator observations demonstrate non-reactionary aerospace technology that defies conventional physics. The 2004 Nimitz Visual and Radar Intercept (2:22) On November 14, 2004, while conducting pre-deployment exercises 60 miles off the coast between San Diego and Ensenada, Cmdr. David Fravor and his wingman were diverted from a training mission by radar controllers aboard the cruiser USS Princeton. For two prior weeks, military radars had tracked anomalous targets descending vertically from above 80,000 feet to 20,000 feet and hovering for hours. Guided to a merge plot, Fravor observed a 737-sized cross-shaped whitewater disturbance on an otherwise calm ocean, above which hovered a smooth, wingless white craft roughly 40 feet long resembling a giant Tic Tac, maneuvering erratically without rotor wash or exhaust plumes. Anomalous Flight Dynamics and Rapid Translation (10:41) When Fravor commenced a circular descent to visually merge with the craft, the object mirrored his flight path by climbing toward him. Upon Fravor aggressive nose-low maneuver to establish visual escort, the craft accelerated across his canopy and vanished in under a second. Within 30 to 40 seconds, the USS Princeton tracked the object reappearing at the aircrew's combat air patrol (CAP) holding station 60 miles away. A relief flight piloted by another crew subsequently acquired the craft on an ATFLIR targeting pod, capturing footage showing an absence of heat plumes, while the airborne radar registered active hostile electronic jamming. Sensor Integration, Fleets, and Transmedium Capabilities (38:24) Fravor breaks down sensor dynamics in the 2004 tape and the later 'Gimbal' footage, explaining that while narrow-field optical cameras display only a single target, modern AESA radars detect broader tactical pictures. In the Gimbal incident, cockpit situational awareness displays confirmed an escort formation of five smaller craft flying ahead of the primary rotating object before executing a coordinated reversal. The panelists point out that the extreme loiter times, lack of aerodynamic surfaces, and apparent underwater interactions suggest non-reactionary or field propulsion drives, enabling vehicles to traverse air, water, and space without friction, sonic booms, or conventional mechanical limits. Government Inaction, Funding Realities, and Classification Myths (19:59) Fravor refutes persistent rumors that the Nimitz incident triggered immediate lockdowns or interventions by government agents, noting that carrier operations resumed with lighthearted teasing across ship channels. Corbell clarifies that investigative initiatives like AATIP and the $22 million AAWSAP budget represented mere fractions of the defense budget, yet struggled with compartmentalized intelligence silos. Although formal Navy reporting protocols eventually followed post-2017 disclosures, high classification barriers surrounding raw radar operating frequencies continue to keep full sensor logs from public scrutiny. While corroborated military sensor data and visual reports confirm that unidentified craft outperformed front-line American strike fighters, official military channels initially treated the Nimitz encounter with institutional apathy, leaving the origin, operational intent, and material mechanics of the observed craft unresolved.

退役美国海军中校David Fravor与纪录片导演Jeremy Corbell在节目中详述了2004年“尼米兹号”航母群遭遇“Tic Tac”不明空中现象的亲历细节，指出该物体展现出颠覆传统航空动力学的无反作用力推进与跨介质机动特征。他们强调，训练有素的军方飞行员多重目击与雷达、红外传感器数据的交叉印证，已迫使官方调查机构与公众重新审视此类异常飞行器的现实存在与潜在科技差距。 尼米兹号事件始末与目击细节 (2:22) 2004年11月14日，David Fravor中校带领两架F/A-18F超级大黄蜂战机在加州与墨西哥之间的太平洋海域进行防空演习，随后被USS Princeton号巡洋舰导引前往拦截异常目标。此前两周内，军方雷达已多次监测到未知物体在非飞行窗口从80,000英尺以上高空骤降至20,000英尺并悬停数小时。在海面风平浪静的极佳能见度下，四名机组人员目击水下有一处约波音737大小的十字形翻滚白水扰动，其上方悬停着一个长约40英尺、外形类似无翼胶囊药丸（Tic Tac）的纯白色物体，以完全不受惯性约束的姿态不规则弹跳移动。 空中缠斗与违背惯性的瞬时机动 (10:41) 当Fravor中校驾驶战机盘旋下降至约18,000英尺试图近距离目视合流时，该物体突然停止原有的南北向漂移，转向东西并镜像爬升迎击。在双方相距两三千英尺、Fravor压低机头切入其航线瞬间，该物体在不足一秒内沿座舱罩前方急剧加速至完全消失，且未留下尾迹。两机机组均证实目标瞬间从视线中抹除。数十秒后，普林斯顿号雷达通报该目标已跨越约60英里重新出现在战机的战斗空中巡逻点（CAP点），且雷达未记录到中间的连续飞行轨迹。后续搭载高级瞄准吊舱升空的战机试图对其实施雷达锁定时，系统遭遇了主动电子干扰并显示测距失效。 传感器特征与非反作用力推进 (24:02) 解密的FLIR（前视红外）视频与东海岸遭遇的“Gimbal”事件录像揭示了异常的物理特征：目标在红外模式下没有任何灼热的发动机构造或废气排放羽流，且展示出机身倾斜旋转却不改变航向或失速的运动姿态。Fravor与Corbell分析指出，现代常规战机受制于有限燃油和气动外形，即便像B-2轰炸机也需频繁加油；而此类飞行器能悬停数小时，其推进机制更接近操纵局部引力场或周围介质的无反作用力推进。根据雷达数据与飞行员内部反馈，Gimbal事件中雷达还捕捉到了由大约五架较小物体组成的楔形编队，它们协同伴随大型母目标并完成急剧掉头，而瞄准吊舱仅因狭窄视场聚焦于单机。 制度反应、安全保密与材料科学壁垒 (19:59) Fravor澄清了关于军方封锁消息的网络传言，指出当时并未发生“黑衣人”收缴录像带的情况，虽然情报中心归档了8毫米磁带，但高层最初在面对远超最新超级大黄蜂战机性能的未知飞行器时表现出令人不解的冷漠，舰上甚至一度以科幻电影播放和讽刺漫画予以调侃。Corbell指出，早前媒体报道的2,200万美元预算实际属于涵盖更广的AAWSAP项目，而非专职军方遭遇调查的AATIP。针对外星造访的技术质疑，Corbell认为若掌握引力推进，光年尺度的星际旅行障碍将不复存在，真正的限制因素在于人类的材料科学尚未攻克类似原子级层叠超导超材料的工业制造难题，而各国对此保密的核心动因在于抢先掌握颠覆性科技的技术博弈。 该节目录制表明，以高阶军方飞行员为代表的目击者与现代雷达、光电传感器的多维度证据，使不明空中现象从单纯的民间猎奇转向国家防空与物理工程的严肃探讨。然而，军方雷达频率等关键机密数据无法公开，且人类目前在超重元素应用与受控引力场操纵上的技术代差，使得这类飞行器的起源、动力来源及潜在意图依然处于悬而未决的争议中。

## Background 本内容由 YouTube 频道 PowerfulJRE 于 2019 年 10 月 5 日发布，为《Joe Rogan Experience》第 1361 期对谈播客。视频页面介绍显示，嘉宾为退役美国海军飞行员大卫·弗拉沃中校（Cmdr. David Fravor）以及当代艺术家兼纪录片制片人杰里米·科贝尔（Jeremy Corbell），主要围绕弗拉沃在 2004 年亲历的“井字糖”（Tic Tac）不明飞行物近距离接触事件展开。 ## TL;DR 退役美国海军中校大卫·弗拉沃详尽复盘了 2004 年在加州外海驾驶 F/A-18F 超级大黄蜂时，亲眼目睹并缠斗椭圆形“Tic Tac”不明飞行物的全过程。该物体展现出主动电磁干扰、瞬间加速消失、无气动舵面与排气羽流，以及垂直跨介质活动的极端性能，彻底碾压当代人类航空工程。三人进一步逐帧拆解五角大楼解密的红外影像，深入探讨东海岸“Gimbal”与“Go Fast”等军方目击案例，并结合 AATIP 秘密调查、超材料样本及非反冲场推进假说，直指军政官僚体制的信息壁垒与历史掩盖政策。 ## Atmosphere & style 整场对话沉稳、理性且极具张力，弗拉沃以职业军人特有的冷静、精确与军旅幽默，褪去了 UFO 话题长期附带的荒诞与迷信色彩。乔·罗根怀揣着求真务实的兴奋感不断追问技术细节，而科贝尔则以充满激情的调查者视角穿针引线，三人互动默契且步步深入。倾听过程中，听众能深切感受到硬核航空专业术语与颠覆性物理异象碰撞时带来的震撼，伴随着对深空未知的敬畏以及对现实科技局限的深刻反思。 ## Bulletin - [00:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ&t=1s) 大卫·弗拉沃中校以24年海军飞行员与Top Gun毕业生的资历，详述了2004年亲眼目睹长约40英尺的“井字糖”（Tic Tac）不明飞行物并与之近距离机动的经过，打破了外界对UFO目击缺乏严谨军方证词的固有偏见。 - [02:22](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ&t=142s) 普林斯顿号巡洋舰的SPY-1雷达曾连续两周追踪到不明物体在80,000英尺以上的高空骤降至20,000英尺悬停数小时再垂直升空，并在与弗拉沃接触中断后，在三四十秒内瞬间出现在约60英里外的预定集结点（CAP点）。 - [14:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ&t=841s) 机载ATFLIR吊舱记录显示，该飞行器不仅在无机翼、无舵面、无尾喷羽流的状态下以惊人加速度消失，而且在战机尝试雷达锁定时实施了主动电子干扰（Jamming）。 - [42:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ&t=2541s) 弗拉沃与科贝尔指出，此类物体展示的是不受介质阻力影响的非反冲场推进技术，若能实现不仅颠覆传统航空航天与材料科学，还将彻底改写星际航行与地缘政治格局。 ## Key takeaways - [00:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ&t=1s) 军方一线受训人员的证词彻底改变了UFO研究的性质，具备顶尖飞行与战术资质的指挥官目击违背气动力学的异象，为理性质疑者提供了最坚实的客观切入点。 - [02:22](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ&t=142s) 2004年外海演练期间，普林斯顿号SPY-1雷达追踪到多个不明物体在8万英尺高空至2万英尺之间垂直跃迁并长时间悬停，但该异象此前并未向战机机组通报。 - [09:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ&t=542s) 弗拉沃与僚机受命执行真实拦截任务，在海面晴朗如镜的背景下，率先目睹波音737大小的十字形白色水下扰动，随后发现了悬停机动的Tic Tac物体。 - [11:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ&t=664s) 在弗拉沃盘旋下降接近过程中，Tic Tac呈镜像爬升伴飞，随后在战机切入机头拦截的瞬间以不到一秒的极速凭空消失。 - [13:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ&t=795s) Tic Tac脱离视线后数秒内即在60英里外的CAP集结点被巡洋舰雷达重新捕获，展现出非连续航线的瞬时空间位移特征。 - [14:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ&t=841s) 后批起飞战机的WSO查德·安德伍德在尝试雷达锁定时遭遇主动电磁干扰，果断切换至前视红外（ATFLIR）被动跟踪才录下解密录像。 - [19:59](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ&t=1199s) 弗拉沃明确辟谣了“黑衣人”收缴录像和全舰封口的阴谋论传闻，指出公开的FLIR短视频即为当年拍摄的全部内容，未做人为删减。 - [26:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ&t=1605s) 目标物展现出的主动雷达干扰与传统依靠外形涂层缩减反射面积的“被动隐身”存在本质区别，属于交战规则中的敌意对抗手段。 - [34:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ&t=2056s) 2015年美军东海岸记录的“Gimbal”与球体包裹立方体异象，显示美军战机换装AESA有源相控阵雷达后，此类高空险遇正频繁发生。 - [38:25](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ&t=2305s) 弗拉沃首次披露“Gimbal”视频未公开的雷达细节：在自转的主目标前方，雷达态势感知（SA）页面上还探测到5架排成编队后整齐掉头的小型飞行器。 - [42:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ&t=2541s) 常规战机受燃油限制留空通常仅1到1.5小时，而不明目标能数小时悬停且自如跨越太空、大气与深海，表明其掌握的是超越传统工质推进的跨介质场推进系统。 - [01:23:36](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ&t=5016s) 重力场推进能够扭曲局部时空以抵消惯性过载，从而打破传统怀疑论者因星际物理距离过于漫长而否定外星接触的思维定势。 - [01:25:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ&t=5152s) 雅克·瓦莱等科学家保存有十余份坠毁残骸超材料，其展现的原子级精密分层结构显示当前限制逆向工程的核心瓶颈在于基础材料科学。 - [01:40:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ&t=6040s) 五角大楼UFO调查资金（如AAWSAP与AATIP）在庞大国防预算中微不足道，弗拉沃向高层强调必须汲取9/11教训、打破部门壁垒建立集中监督机制。 - [01:47:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ&t=6455s) 核心UFO情报拥有极高密级与隔离壁垒，即便是克林顿、卡特等历任总统调阅相关档案也曾屡屡碰壁，无法真正穿透深层军方壁垒。 ## Detailed walkthrough ### [00:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ&t=1s) 军旅履历与理性信任的建立 乔·罗根（Joe Rogan）在节目开场对杰里米·科贝尔（Jeremy Corbell）的再次做客表示欢迎，并对退役海军中校大卫·弗拉沃（Commander David Fravor）的到来表达了极高的敬意与兴奋。弗拉沃中校随后简要概述了自己的服役履历：他在军中服役长达24年，最初作为海军陆战队士兵服役了几年，随后被选拔进入美国海军学院（Naval Academy），毕业后在海军担任飞行员长达18年。在漫长的飞行生涯中，他先后驾驶过A-6“入侵者”攻击机、F/A-18“大黄蜂”以及F/A-18E/F“超级大黄蜂”，拿满了机型所能获取的每一项飞行与战斗资质，包括夜视仪高空/低空战术资质（NVG high/low），并且毕业于著名的海军战斗机武器学校（Top Gun）。在2004年那起著名事件发生时，他正担任美国海军第41战斗攻击机中队（VFA-41“黑色王牌”，Black Aces）的指挥官（CO）。 罗根坦言自己对不明飞行物（UFO）话题的心态经历过漫长的演变——从最初的完全深信，到极度怀疑，再到试图保持开放心态，直到现在比以往任何时候都更加倾向于相信真实存在未解现象。罗根特别强调，外界充斥着形形色色自称有特异功能、通灵或能与“大脚怪”交流的神棍与狂人，但他真正愿意给予信任的，是像弗拉沃这样接受过顶级训练的高阶军方人员。罗根指出，这些飞行员驾驶着单机造价高达约7000万美元的高性能战机，军方绝不可能把这种国之重器交到不可靠的人手中。当一名受过最严苛逻辑与感知训练的军方指挥官，讲述起违背传统空气动力学常识与人类物理理解的遭遇时，整件事的性质便彻底改变了，这正是理性质疑者能够客观切入研究该现象的基石。 - 大卫·弗拉沃服役全长24年：前段为海军陆战队士兵，自海军学院毕业后在海军飞行18年。 - 驾驶机型涵盖A-6“入侵者”、F/A-18“大黄蜂”、F/A-18E/F“超级大黄蜂”，毕业于Top Gun。 - 事件发生时，弗拉沃担任VFA-41中队（“黑色王牌”）指挥官，执掌当时单机造价约7000万美元的战机。 - 罗根总结道：“当军方的人、接受过驾驶这些精密战机训练的人站出来时……这对我来说就完全是另一回事了。” --- ### [02:22](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ&t=142s) 2004年外海演练与普林斯顿号雷达的异常异象 弗拉沃将时间拨回到2004年11月14日。当时美军航母战斗群正位于加利福尼亚州圣迭戈与墨西哥恩森那达（Ensenada）之间的外海，距离海岸线约60英里。整个战斗群正在为2005年的实战部署进行为期两个月（11月至12月）的代号“Workups”综合训练，目的是将航母、巡洋舰及所有保障舰艇与舰载机联队深度磨合为一个高效的联合作战系统。弗拉沃当时接任中队指挥官仅一个月。当天计划开展的是一场防空对抗演练（2v2），红蓝双方均来自舰载机联队内部：由弗拉沃的好友“Cheeks”率领的海军陆战队VMFA-323战斗攻击机中队（“红魔鬼”，Red Devils）扮演假想敌（红军），率先起飞并飞往航母以南约100英里处建立航线；弗拉沃的机组则扮演防空拦截方（蓝军），由提康德罗加级导弹巡洋舰普林斯顿号（USS Princeton, CG-59）负责战术指控，演练阻止敌机突防接近航母。 飞行员们当时完全不知情的是，在他们此前出海的两周时间里，普林斯顿号巡洋舰上的SPY-1相控阵雷达系统以及航母战斗群的E-2“鹰眼”预警机，就已经持续追踪到大量从天而降的不可思议目标。普林斯顿号的雷达管制员后来告诉弗拉沃，他们曾同时追踪到多达十几枚不明物体：这些物体通常直接从80,000英尺以上的高空断崖式跌落至约20,000英尺高度悬停徘徊，持续逗留三至四个小时后，再垂直拉升直冲天际消失不见。由于这套SPY-1雷达代表着当时全球最顶尖的防空探测技术，这些轨迹绝非系统噪点。然而，按照非战区实战条令，加上这些物体大多在日常12小时飞行排班（通常为正午至午夜）之外的时段出没，舰指并未将这一异常空情通报给舰载机飞行员，导致他们对潜伏在外海的异象毫无心理防备。 弗拉沃解释了当时指挥部隐瞒空情的原因：“如果我们在威胁环境下，他们肯定会通知我们；但我们当时就在圣迭戈海岸边，所以消息根本没同步到舰载机联队，我们完全不知道外面有这些东西。” ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 普林斯顿号雷达追踪异常物体高度变化 accDescr: 展现不明飞行物从8万英尺以上骤降到2万英尺徘徊，数小时后垂直拉升的过程。 subgraph HighAltitude["极高空域（>80,000英尺）"] A["不明飞行物群（多达12个）"] end subgraph MidAltitude["常规空域（约20,000英尺）"] B["悬停盘旋 / 徘徊 3-4 小时"] end A -->|"瞬间垂直极速俯冲"| B B -->|"数小时后垂直笔直升空"| A ``` --- ### [05:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ&t=316s) 取消演习与“真实世界转向”拦截指令 演习当天正午刚过，海军陆战队的“大黄蜂”率先弹射升空。由于老款的经典型F/A-18燃油储量不及机体大出30%的“超级大黄蜂”，管制员在核实其油量与滞空时间后，指示陆战队战机先行前往战斗空中巡逻点（CAP point）。随后弗拉沃与僚机（两架战机均为双座型，弗拉沃机上载有他本人及一名武器系统官WSO，僚机由一名女飞行员与她的WSO驾驶）刚刚升空，机组呼号为“Dealer 1-1”。此时，普林斯顿号的管制员突然切入无线电，询问弗拉沃战机的武器挂载配置。弗拉沃听到后忍不住失笑——因为在日常训练中，机上只挂载了一枚蓝色的CATM-9训练弹（Captive Air Training Missile），那本质上只是一根带有AIM-9红外寻的头的钝头金属管，根本无法发射离架，除非拿大锤砸或者拿钥匙拧开挂钩。 管制员随即发出了打乱整场训练的指令：取消预定演习，执行“真实世界转向”（real-world vector），指示弗拉沃编队朝270方位（正西方向）全速飞行约60英里。当时航母位于中心点，弗拉沃编队在航母以南约40英里，而陆战队战机在南面100英里处，两队间距60英里。随着僚机完成编队集结，战机掉头向外海更深处疾驰。此时普林斯顿号的管制员才在无线电里首次向他们披露了实情：“长官，两周以来我们一直在追踪这些物体从天而降”，并正式命令弗拉沃机组前去接近并查明这些不明物体的真实面貌。 罗根惊讶地追问，军方为何会让两架完全没有武器的战斗机去调查这种未知目标。弗拉沃解释道，无论海军还是空军，在非实战或非靶场射击训练中严禁挂载实弹，这是用血淋淋的历史教训换来的规定——如果在训练狗斗中让飞行员在带弹状态下扣动扳机，总有人会因为开关操作失误（switchology）而误击友机。弗拉沃回忆，僚机飞行员最初听到朝墨西哥方向去执行真实拦截任务时，第一反应是去查缉低空潜入的毒贩走私机。然而，随着战机向西狂飙，普林斯顿号开始以冰冷的语调进行距离倒数：“方位270，距离30英里，高度20,000英尺……” 弗拉沃在无线电中回答管制员关于弹药的质问时笑道：“我说我就挂了一枚CATM-9……那基本上就是一根装了AIM-9红外导引头的蓝色金属管子，训练用的，根本打不出去。” - 双机编队：两架双座型超级大黄蜂，每架搭载一名飞行员与一名武器系统官（WSO）。 - 挂载配置：仅挂载CATM-9惰性空战训练弹，无任何实弹武器。 - 空间相对位置：航母居中，弗拉沃位于南偏40英里，陆战队位于南偏100英里；新航向指向正西270度、距离60英里之外的未知目标。 --- ### [08:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ&t=480s) 进入“雷达重叠点”与初见静谧海面异动 随着双机编队高速接近目标坐标，普林斯顿号在无线电中通报了一个关键雷达术语——“雷达重叠点”（merged plot）。弗拉沃向罗根解释，任何雷达系统都有其固有的角分辨率与距离分辨率单元（resolution cells）。当两个高速飞行的目标在距离和方位角上靠得极近、同时进入同一个探测分辨率方框内时，雷达系统便无法在屏幕上区分彼此，原本独立的反射回波会融合为一团巨大的光斑。这一通报意味着，在普林斯顿号的雷达屏幕上，弗拉沃的战机已经与那个神秘的不明物体完全重叠在了一起，但弗拉沃和机载武器系统官的雷达屏幕上却依然没有锁定任何实际目标。 为了向听众清晰还原空间几何态势，弗拉沃以十二点钟的时钟方位模型进行阐释：目标处于正中央，弗拉沃的战机正处于六点钟位置向北推进，而他的女僚机则保持在弗拉沃的左侧后方。机组四人全部开始用肉眼扫视座舱外的广阔空域。这一天的天气状况极为罕见且完美，弗拉沃形容这就像昨天的加州外海一样——万里无云，海面上平滑如镜，连一道白色浪花（Whitecaps）都没有，能见度极高。然而，就在他们朝右下方俯瞰这片死寂如镜的太平洋海面时，一个极其诡异且打破大自然常理的景象骤然映入眼帘。 弗拉沃特别描述了雷达上的危急临界点：“一旦你进入那个框子里，雷达就分不清我和我接近的物体了，我们会在屏幕上直接变成一大团光斑。” ### [09:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ&t=542s) 海面异象与“井字糖”（Tic Tac）物体的初次目击 戴维·弗拉沃（David Fravor）描述了当时从高空俯瞰海面时见到的奇特景象。海面泛起白色的浪花，看起来就像站在岸边看到海浪拍击水下暗礁（seamount）的情景，但其规模足有一架波音 737 客机那么大，外形大致呈十字形，长轴指向东西方向，两翼伸向南北方向。就在这团奇异的白色浪花吸引了他们的目光时，长机与僚机几乎同时发现了异常：另一架飞机的飞行员刚在无线电里喊出“嘿，长官，你有没有……”，弗拉沃就已经脱口而出：“哥们，你看到那个了吗？那到底是个什么玩意儿？” 在白色扰动水域正上方，赫然悬停着一个白色、外形酷似“井字糖”（Tic Tac）的椭圆状物体。该物体大致呈南北朝向，但移动方式极其怪异混乱：它毫无预警地在空中忽前忽后、忽左忽右地做剧烈的折线移动，在下方泛起白浪的海面上肆意机动。弗拉沃根据自己常年与其他战机空战格斗的经验估算，该物体长约 40 英尺（约 12 米），尺寸与一架 F/A-18“大黄蜂”（Hornet）的机身差不多大。 飞行员凭借肉眼观察时的第一反应，是怀疑那是否是一架直升机。但在该海域作业的海军直升机通常活动在 200 英尺以下的低空，且事发位置距离母舰相当遥远。更关键的是，如果是直升机，旋翼在海面上掀起的下洗气流（rotor wash）在空中极易辨认，然而眼前不仅没有任何旋翼气流扰动，该物体甚至完全没有主旋翼、尾桨或任何常规飞行器的控制翼面。 - **目击高度与距离**：弗拉沃的战机位于 20,000 英尺高空，物体则紧贴海平面，横向距离大约两英里。 - **环境能见度**：海面万里无云，即使隔着两万英尺的高度，40 英尺的目标在肉眼观察下依然非常清晰。 --- ### [11:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ&t=664s) 盘旋交汇与瞬间消失 按照海军飞行员的受训本能，弗拉沃决定脱离编队下沉查验情况。另一架战机的飞行员主动提出留在 20,000 英尺高空待命，这恰好构成了理想的战术配合：由僚机占据“上帝视角”（God's eye view）总揽全局，弗拉沃则单机俯冲接近目标。为了防止在空旷单调的海面上发生空间定向障碍，弗拉沃没有采取激进俯冲，而是保持平缓的盘旋下降——因为在茫茫大海之上，缺乏地貌参照物时，两万英尺与两千英尺看起来毫无二致，一不留神就可能陷入无法挽回的坠海险境。 当弗拉沃盘旋下降至大约 18,000 英尺（时钟 12 点钟方向）时，异象突生：原本呈南北朝向胡乱机动的 Tic Tac 物体突然急转指向东西，随后开始“镜像”模仿弗拉沃的动作。弗拉沃盘旋下降，该物体竟沿着直径对称的轨迹盘旋攀升。双方绕着同一个假想圆周机动，弗拉沃转到了时钟的 8 点钟位置，物体则来到了对应的 2 点钟位置，双方垂直高差仅剩两三千英尺。弗拉沃为了截击该物体并尝试编队靠近（join on），决定切入圆周内侧，压下机头猛拉机动，直奔物体的预测航路冲去。然而，当该物体即将横穿他的机头正前方、弗拉沃正准备将机头彻底对准它的一瞬间，物体突然爆发式加速，“噗”的一声便从视野中凭空消失了，整个过程用时不到一秒。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: Tic Tac 交会与消失过程 accDescr: 展示弗拉沃机动接近 Tic Tac 目标并目睹其消失的阶段 subgraph S1["初始态势"] A["弗拉沃处于 20,000 英尺<br>平缓盘旋下降"] B["Tic Tac 贴海面低空机动"] end subgraph S2["镜像伴飞"] C["降至 18,000 英尺 (12 点钟)"] D["Tic Tac 转为东西向<br>破海盘旋攀升并镜像伴飞"] end subgraph S3["切线拦截与消失"] E["弗拉沃处于 8 点钟<br>物体处于 2 点钟"] F["弗拉沃压机头切入内圈<br>试图近距离咬尾截击"] G["物体横穿机头瞬间超高加速<br>在不到 1 秒内凭空消失"] end A --> C B --> D C --> E D --> E E --> F F --> G ``` 弗拉沃随即呼叫高空的僚机询问：“嘿，你们看到那东西了吗？”僚机飞行员震惊地回复：“长官，它没了，我们完全看不到了。”惊疑不定的两架战机立刻调头飞回最初发现白色扰动水域的位置，试图确认水下究竟隐藏着什么。然而仅仅几十秒之间，那片原本如暗礁般的白色巨型浪花也荡然无存，下方的海水恢复成一片平整、清澈的纯蓝。 --- ### [13:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ&t=795s) 普林斯顿号的雷达惊报与 CAP 集结点的瞬间位移 失去视觉接触后，两机掉头向东返航。弗拉沃向后座武器系统官（WSO）坦言自己被这诡异的场景彻底震撼了。就在此时，负责空中指挥的“普林斯顿”号导弹巡洋舰（USS Princeton）的管制员突然在无线电中通报了一则令人难以置信的消息。戴维·弗拉沃回忆道： > “普林斯顿号上的管制员呼叫我说：‘长官，你绝对不会相信，那东西回到了你们的 CAP 点。’” 所谓的 CAP（战斗空中巡逻点）是他们最初受命在母舰以南 40 英里处待命的集结点。从弗拉沃交会的空域到该集结点，距离足有大约 60 英里（约 96 公里）。而从物体从眼前消失到巡洋舰雷达重新捕捉到它，中间仅仅过去了三四十秒。更骇人的是，普林斯顿号的高灵敏度雷达并没有捕捉到物体沿途连续飞行的轨迹，它是直接跳跃式地在该坐标瞬间凭空浮现。弗拉沃随后飞往 CAP 点排查，但机载雷达和所有机载传感器均未发现该物体的踪迹。进行了两次排查航路后，燃油所剩无几的他们返回航母着舰。 --- ### [14:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ&t=841s) 电子战干扰与红外瞄准吊舱（ATFLIR）的被动追踪 降落回到航母上的航空装具室（PR shop）卸下飞行装具时，弗拉沃遇见了下一批准备起飞执行加油支援任务的机组人员。这架 F/A-18F 双座“超级大黄蜂”战机恰好挂载了先进的前视红外瞄准吊舱（ATFLIR）。听完弗拉沃惊心动魄的遭遇后，后座武器系统官查德·安德伍德（Chad Underwood）下定决心要找到这个神秘物体。 起飞后不久，安德伍德在雷达上捕获到了一个反射信号。在“超级大黄蜂”的座舱系统中，当雷达捕获并指定（designate）某个目标为主目标后，全机火控系统会自动交联，引导光学和红外吊舱同步转向该方位。然而，就在安德伍德尝试实施雷达锁定的瞬间，机载雷达立刻检测到反常的回波信号，系统显示雷达遭遇了恶意电磁压制（jamming）并进入干扰外推状态。戴维·弗拉沃特别指出： > “严格来说，电磁干扰在交战规则中属于挑衅性的战争行为。” 面对雷达被强行压制致盲的局面，安德伍德迅速通过座舱侧杆控制器（side stick controller）切换界面，下达传感器控制权转移（castle switch）指令，转用瞄准吊舱对该目标进行无源被动光学跟踪（passive track）。正是通过这次果断的操作，他成功捕获并记录下了如今风靡全球的“Tic Tac”绝密视频——画面中，白色椭圆形物体在红外（IR）与光电黑白电视（EO/TV）各模式间切换时，始终静止稳定在十字瞄准线正中央。 --- ### [15:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ&t=930s) 播客现场调取机密视频与版权讨论 乔·罗根（Joe Rogan）急切地提议在录音室现场调出该视频进行逐帧解读。制片人杰米（Young Jamie）和罗根随即就 YouTube 极为严苛的版权封禁政策展开了讨论。罗根提到团队曾因版权问题数次险些被封号，但弗拉沃和杰里米·科贝尔（Jeremy Corbell）指出，这段视频是由美国五角大楼（Pentagon）解密并向全社会公开的公有领域（public domain）官方档案，五角大楼绝不可能以版权侵权追究责任。 为了确保播放画面的纯净度，科贝尔表示自己在私人服务器上保留了一份未被打上任何媒体水印的高清母版文件，并现场尝试通过 AirDrop 或私密链接将其发送给杰米。在此间隙，罗根向听众介绍，杰里米·科贝尔正是此前轰动一时的纪录片《鲍勃·拉扎尔：51区与飞碟》（Bob Lazar: Area 51 & Flying Saucers）的制片人，当初鲍勃·拉扎尔（Bob Lazar）做客播客分享其逆向工程飞碟的经历，对罗根乃至无数公众的宇宙认知都带来了颠覆性的冲击。 ### [17:55](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ&t=1075s) 啤酒桌上的荒诞谈资与破例公开 谈话从公众对不明飞行物话题的刻板偏见切入。Joe Rogan 直言，这个话题极易招致冷嘲热讽，街头随处可见的 UFO 狂热者往往“什么荒谬的说法都信”，因此像 David Fravor 这样严谨的军方一线目击者现身说法才显得格外重要。当被问及此前是否曾有过任何目击经历时，Fravor 笑着否认，并讲起了一段颇具讽刺意味的家庭琐事。早在他与妻子刚谈恋爱时，妻子很爱在超市买《国家询问报》（National Enquirer）这类登满外星人八卦的小报，他当时总是以此揶揄妻子；而他的岳母更是一个狂热关注者，每次他休假回家，岳母总会追着问他：“喂，你这次在天上飞看到 UFO 了吗？”他的回答向来都是斩钉截铁的“没有”。 然而，2004 年的近距离遭遇彻底颠覆了一切。令人意外的是，事发后多年 Fravor 对此始终保持低调，从未向大众张扬，唯独在和飞行员老友们聚会喝啤酒时，它成了一个绝佳的谈资。每当同僚们互相攀比飞行生涯中见过最酷的场面时，他便会轻描淡写地抛出一句自己开战斗机追逐 UFO 的经历，引来战友们满脸错愕与惊叹。直到 2017 年，前五角大楼先进航空威胁识别项目（AATIP）负责人 Luis Elizondo 找到他，希望他配合《纽约时报》的重磅深度报道，向来抗拒公开抛头露面的 Fravor 起初依旧习惯性回绝。不仅如此，包括 Jeremy Corbell 反复劝说他登上 Joe Rogan 播客的邀请，他也推脱了多次，最终是在一次聚会微醺时，一位来自新罕布什尔州、名叫 Angel 的承包商妻子当面点醒了他。 在《纽约时报》头条文章刊发前夕的 2017 年感恩节，Fravor 决定在自家庭院向长辈们挑明真相。当时其他宾客刚散去，只剩下妻子与岳父岳母围坐在厨房里，Fravor 郑重告知他们，几天后《纽约时报》将有一篇关于他追逐不明飞行物的重磅报道。岳母当场哈哈大笑，岳父则翻着白眼满脸写着“你小子在逗我”，两人完全无法相信这位平日里严肃严谨的海军中校竟然真的藏着这么一个天大的秘密。 - 面对公众普遍对 UFO 爱好者的轻视，Joe Rogan 明确指出与专业军人对话的必要性：“This is why I think it's so important that we talk to people like you, because like I said, just your average everyday UFO crackpot, they believe everything and anything.” - 谈及此前对公众媒体的抗拒以及最终改变主意来到节目的缘由，David Fravor 笑着回忆承包商妻子的劝说：“It's the biggest podcast on the planet, she goes, you got to do it, and I go, all right, I'm going to do it just for you.” - 战友闲聊中提及这段经历时，Fravor 经常用一句简短的话打破沉默：“I chased a UFO.” --- ### [19:59](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ&t=1199s) 辟谣“黑衣人”与 AATIP 秘密调查报告 随着事件发酵，外界充斥着各种神秘传言，声称该事件属于绝密、整艘航母随即陷入封锁，甚至有传闻称“穿黑西装的神秘特工”（Men in Black）登舰没收了录像并下了封口令。Fravor 在此给出了极为明确的辟谣：该事件在当时及之后的任何时期从未被列为保密级别，没有黑衣人造访，也没有任何人下达过封口禁令。他从美军指挥架构的现实逻辑剖析，整个航母战斗群约有 6,000 人，排在最顶层的是舰队海军少将、航母舰长、普林斯顿号巡洋舰舰长，接下来便是他这类各个战斗中队的指挥官（CO）；论职务位阶，他是全战斗群排名前 20 的高级军官。倘若真有军方高层或情报机构介入调查，绝不可能绕过他本人。 涉事的全部机组人员仅有 6 人：包括肉眼近距离观察目标约 5 分钟的 4 人（两架大黄蜂战机的飞行员与武器系统官），以及随后升空拍摄到红外视频的 2 人。事发后，不仅没有特工找他收缴飞行记录磁带，也没有任何人向其他队员问话。后来被知名调查记者 George Knapp 获取并公布的一份长达十页的详尽调查报告，被 Fravor 戏称为“非官方的官方报告”。退役后从事航空航天工作的 Fravor，曾私下拜托业内人士帮忙打听当年是否有该事件的官方档案，随后便接到了一位自称调查人员打来的手机电话。对方展开了极其深入细致的追查，顺藤摸瓜访谈了当事机组全体成员乃至当年的舰队少将。 退役约六年之后，美国海军公共事务部门（PAO）曾致电 Fravor，询问他手中是否存在关于尼米兹号 UFO 事件的官方文件，Fravor 坦诚回复“没有”，因为在他当时的认知里，那份十页的报告属于身份不明机构的非官方调研。直到数年后与 Luis Elizondo 当面交流，Fravor 看到最初由 13 人组成的 AATIP 核心团队名单时，才恍然大悟——当年直接致电调查他的正是该团队成员。由于该项目享有完全的信息自由法（FOIA）豁免权，公众和普通海军部门自然查不到任何痕迹。Fravor 强调自己绝非阴谋论者，五角大楼普通文员在面对公众提交的 FOIA 申请时，往往因权限不足或不知文件归属而直接回复“未检索到记录”，这种官僚层面的信息断层常常被外界误判为政府在蓄意掩盖。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 尼米兹事件调查与信息流转机制 accDescr: 展现事件发生后当事军官、AATIP秘密调查组与公众FOIA申请之间的脱节关系 subgraph GroundReality ["当事人与一线部队"] A["尼米兹航母中队指挥官<br/>(David Fravor 等 6 名机组)"] B["未列入机密 / 未遭封口<br/>未被黑衣特工收缴磁带"] A --- B end subgraph DeepInvestigation ["AATIP 核心调查组 (13人)"] C["独立调查专员电话联系 Fravor"] D["走访涉事机组与海军少将<br/>形成约 10 页详尽内部报告"] E["专享 FOIA 豁免权限<br/>成果不进入常规海军公共档案系统"] C --> D --> E end subgraph BureaucracyFOIA ["五角大楼日常政务与公众视野"] F["公众 / 媒体提交 FOIA 申请"] G["五角大楼文员常规数据库检索<br/>(无权限检索 AATIP 绝密项目)"] H["官方回复：未找到任何相关记录"] I["外界猜疑：政府正蓄意进行政治掩盖"] F --> G --> H --> I end B -.->|"私人渠道探寻旧事"| C E -.->|"记者 George Knapp 获取泄露"| D ``` - 针对甚嚣尘上的特工封口传闻，Fravor 用不可辩驳的舰队层级事实予以彻底驳斥：“No one came to talk to me, no one came to take my tapes, no one showed up in a suit, no one told me not to talk, no one talked to any of my aircrew that were involved in this.” - 针对外界认为政府隐瞒信息必有阴谋的看法，Fravor 表达了务实的态度：“I'm not a conspiracy theory person at all, I mean, I'll just tell you that, you know, I think there's reasons that the government doesn't tell the public everything, and I don't speak for the government, but I think there's a good reason for that, that not everything needs to go out to the public, but most of it does.” --- ### [24:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ&t=1443s) 逐帧解析 Tic Tac FLIR 绝密红外瞄准影像 在随后的环节中，节目制作人 Jamie 调出了著名的 Tic Tac 前视红外（FLIR）视频，Fravor 随即进行专业级的逐帧解读。他首先指认了平显左上角的标识 `NAR`，代表当前处于窄视场（Narrow Field of View）的放大变倍状态；屏幕正上方中央标注的 `IR`，表明处于红外传感模式。红外模式并不呈现真实光学色彩，而是敏锐地捕捉极其细微的温度差异，其热敏元件灵敏度高达十分之几华氏度。屏幕左下角标注的 `WHT` 则代表“白热”（White Hot）成像模式，即画面中呈现白色的物体代表其自身温度明显高于周边的背景天空。 Fravor 特别指出了一个极其反常的气动与物理特征：画面中的白色椭圆物体周围完全没有尾气羽流（exhaust plume）。通常情况下，如果在红外或光学模式下观测常规喷气式飞机，发动机喷出的高温尾气会在机尾后方形成极为刺眼耀眼的炽热光晕，而眼前这个目标边缘整洁，没有任何燃烧排气迹象。此时载机处于巡航状态，屏幕右下角清晰显示飞行高度为 19,990 英尺（约 20,000 英尺），平显上方的 `HDG` 和 `B-ALT` 状态指示战机已开启航向与气压高度保持的自动驾驶模式。白色目标两侧竖立的两道竖线是前视红外系统的“被动跟踪”（passive track）框，机载火控计算机正通过锁定高温白色像素与深色冷背景像素的边缘反差实现自动跟踪。 在视频推进过程中，操作员 Chad Underwood 将传感器从红外模式切换到了黑白电视光学模式（TV Mode）。此时画面翻转为白底背景下的黑色胶囊状物体，Fravor 解释称，光电电视模式下的窄视场在物理光学放大倍率上比红外的窄视场更加清晰深入（红外的 Narrow 仅相当于 TV 的 Medium 视角）。然而在拉近的光电视角下，该物体依然毫无常规航空器的扰流、扰动或黑色尾气排放。针对网络上流传军方扣留了所谓“长达10分钟完整未删减录像”的阴谋论说法，Fravor 斩钉截铁地证实：公众所看到的这几十秒片段就是当年录制的全部内容。最后，他解释了画面中出现的 `99.9` 测距代码——这意味着此时前视红外瞄准吊舱虽然牢牢锁定了光学与热源信号，但雷达仍处于极限扫描边缘，尚未解算出稳定的测距参数，机组当时正通过不断切变传感模式，竭尽全力获取最佳的识别与情报数据。 - 针对坊间流传的超长删减版录像谣言，Fravor 明确做出辟谣：“There's rumors that this video is like 10 minutes long, no, what you're looking at is the entire video.” - 屏幕顶部显示的 `3R` 指示标，说明此时瞄准吊舱的光学瞄准线正朝向战机机头正右方 3 度的方位角进行斜向追踪。 - 视频中 `41 56` 等底部滚动字符为战机机载系统的内部时间戳代码，与武器火控系统的总线同步。 ### [26:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ&t=1605s) 主动雷达干扰与隐身技术的本质区别 弗雷沃（David Fravor）与杰里米·科贝尔（Jeremy Corbell）深入分析了机载光电红外吊舱拍摄画面中的异常现象。当时战机搭载的多普勒雷达试图对目标进行测距，但屏幕显示的测距数据却为“99.9”，这意味着雷达根本无法锁定目标并计算距离。科贝尔特别强调，根据弗雷沃的解释，这种现象属于“主动干扰（Active Jamming）”，而非隐身战机那种依靠外形与特殊涂层的“被动隐形”。 弗雷沃随即用形象的通俗比喻解释了隐身技术的原理。大众往往误以为隐形就是彻底看不见，其实隐形技术只是极大地削弱雷达反射截面积，让雷达难以辨认。他说道：“隐形并不是隐形不可见，它只是一种让雷达更难发现你的技术。”他用谷仓大门打比方：如果正面对着整扇谷仓大门，目标巨大极易被看清；但如果将大门侧转过来露出薄薄的侧刃，观察难度就会成倍增加。战机迎头飞行的雷达反射截面远小于机身侧面，基本逻辑正是如此。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 雷达探测与干扰方式对比 accDescr: 对比传统隐身技术的被动反射截面缩减与Tic Tac目标的雷达主动干扰 subgraph Passive["被动隐身技术（常规隐身战机）"] P1["特殊几何外形与吸波涂层"] --> P2["削弱雷达反射截面积（RCS）"] P2 --> P3["雷达难以捕捉（类似侧转的薄谷仓门）"] end subgraph Active["主动干扰（Tic Tac 不明飞行物）"] A1["不明机载电磁对抗机制"] --> A2["破坏多普勒频移测距信号"] A2 --> A3["战机屏幕显示测距盲区 99.9"] end ``` ### [27:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ&t=1665s) 极速离场：无羽流、无舵面与瞬间消失的机动极限 战机当时在 20,000 英尺高度以 250 节的航速平稳巡航，飞行员不断切换传感器工作模式尝试重新捕获目标，吊舱也随之缓慢向左转动校准。然而就在战机靠近时，那个原本静止悬浮的物体突然向视野左侧闪电般猛冲飞离。弗雷沃指出，虽然机载录像复制到普通格式时会像磁带转录一样损失画质，但在航母舰载的大尺寸高清监控器上回放原始母带时，这种极其凶猛的加速瞬间一览无余。 面对乔·罗根（Joe Rogan）关于其逃逸速度的追问，弗雷沃直言人类现役最顶尖的装备也绝无可能做到这种动作。他指出，哪怕是当今全球空战性能天花板的 F-22 “猛禽” 隐形战斗机，也绝对无法在无任何初速度的悬停状态下瞬间爆发出这种加速度。更令人不寒而栗的是，不仅红外热成像（IR）放大视角下完全看不到尾焰或排气羽流，目标更是连机翼、方向舵、旋翼乃至尾号统统没有。 弗雷沃进一步对比了自己与该物体近距离缠斗时的亲身体验。当时他距目标仅约半英里（约 800 米），目标横切至机头前方后便直接人间蒸发。为了说明这种视觉冲击，弗雷沃举例道：“哪怕是大家熟知的全速以 3 马赫飞行的 SR-71 黑鸟侦察机，在 50 英里的能见度下，即使每分钟飞驰 35 英里，我也能在视野中看着它渐渐缩成一个小黑点飞向地平线，整个过程至少能看上一分钟；但我们看到的那个东西，仅用了一秒钟就凭空消失了，彻底没了。”盘旋在上方 8,000 英尺处（总高度约 12,000 英尺）俯瞰整个空域的僚机机组人员也证实，目标瞬间化作虚无。 - **飞行巡航参数**：追击战机保持在 20,000 英尺高度，飞行速度为 250 节。 - **物理机动反差**：目标在静止无气流推进痕迹的悬停状态下实现超常规加速。 - **缺失常规特征**：无排气羽流、无旋翼、无水平/垂直尾翼、无任何识别编号。 - **目视消失对比**：SR-71 在高空以 3 马赫狂飙仍能目视追踪近一分钟，而 Tic Tac 仅耗时一秒钟便脱离双重视线。 ### [31:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ&t=1870s) 航母情报中心汇报与全舰轰动 飞行任务结束后，两套机组返航着陆并进入标准的任务复盘流程。弗雷沃身为中队长，通常由后舱雷达拦截官（RIO）等资浅军官带着记录磁带前往舰上的航空母舰情报中心（CVIC, Carrier Intelligence Center）进行正式汇报。弗雷沃在战机滑行降落前就开玩笑地对后座搭档说：“兄弟，你懂的，我们这次肯定要被大家笑死、被喷惨了。”后座也苦笑着回应“是的，长官”。 当查德（Chad）带着 8 毫米录像磁带走进情报部门时，地勤与情报人员还在开玩笑嘲讽：“哟，VFA-41 中队的大老爷们儿，今天在天上抓到飞碟了吗？”查德直接把磁带往柜台上一拍说：“对，全录在里面了。”当情报人员将 8 毫米磁带装入机架系统并转录进硬盘时，现场所有人都被画面震惊了。 在拥有 5,000 余名官兵的核动力航母上，这则离奇消息如同病毒般迅速蔓延，不到 30 分钟便人尽皆知，连同编队的“普林斯顿”号巡洋舰也传得沸沸扬扬。消息一路惊动了航母舰长乃至舰队司令（海军少将）。舰上的闭路电视系统迅速充满各种整蛊意味，全天 12 小时循环播放诸如《黑衣人》、《黑衣人 2》、《天兆》（Signs）以及《独立日》等经典外星人电影，舰载每日趣味简报（Airplane Comic）上也画满了调侃他们的漫画。 整整两天时间里，整个中队都在经历这种充满善意的调侃与热议，随后大家才重新投入高强度的实战训练部署。弗雷沃笑称，自己的机载服役生涯累计飞了将近 4,000 小时，却没料到最终名扬四海全凭追逐那枚白色“Tic Tac”的短短五分钟。不过，在喧嚣过后，舰上一些隐藏的狂热 UFO 迷私下底经常凑到弗雷沃身边坐下，低声追问当时的细节，表示自己这几天脑海中全是那架神秘飞行物，挥之不去。 ### [34:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ&t=2056s) 2015 年东海岸“万向节”事件与立方体异象 罗根询问弗雷沃是否遇到过其他拥有类似遭遇的军方飞行员。弗雷沃证实，自己不仅认识亲历者，其中一位正是 2015 年美军东海岸著名“万向节（Gimbal）”视频事件的核心飞行员，两人至今保持着密切联系。 弗雷沃特别厘清了时间线：弗雷沃所经历的 Tic Tac 事件发生在 2004 年的太平洋海域，而 Gimbal 事件则发生于 11 年后的 2015 年，地点位于美国东海岸外海的“警告空域”（如 Whiskey 291、Whiskey 243 等用蓝色划定的军事训练禁区）。弗雷沃致电退役的前东海岸第二舰载机联队指挥官好友，才得知类似目击事件在东海岸训练空域实际上频繁发生，而且多次险些造成极为严峻的空中相撞事故。 两起事件中不明飞行物的外观与物理表象截然不同。东海岸飞行员最先目睹的不明物体“看起来像是一个被封在透明沙滩排球里面的半透明立方体”，人们甚至无法确定外部的透明球体到底是物理外壳还是某种高能防护罩。在流出的 Gimbal 红外视频中，目标周围隐隐散发着一层朦胧的光晕（Aura），而弗雷沃在 2004 年近距离遭遇的纯白色 Tic Tac 物体则表面光滑利落、毫无发光外壳或光晕。“我总是开玩笑说，我们看到的是 Tic Tac，而他们看到的完全不是这一类，这意味着外面有着各种我们完全不了解的不同技术产物。”美军当时两架战机同时执行常规训练任务出海，却迎面撞见了这些颠覆物理认知的神秘飞行器。 ### [35:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ&t=2144s) 近距险遇与超级大黄蜂的先进传感器 戴维·弗拉沃（David Fravor）指挥官讲述了东海岸战机编队飞行时经历的惊险一幕。当时战机正以被称为“战术展开”（combat spread）的战斗队形间隔一英里向外巡航，其中一架战机与一个不明物体擦肩而过，最近距离仅约 50 英尺。该物体呈现为包裹在半透明“沙滩球”状球体内部的悬浮立方体。针对部分人认为这只是气球的猜测，弗拉沃坚决予以反驳，指出这些物体在高达 90 节的强烈高空风中完全静止不动，根本不受气流影响。之所以能频繁目击，是因为超级大黄蜂战机换装了探测性能极强的新型 AESA 雷达；飞行员们起初怀疑是雷达虚警，但当他们像查德（Chad）那样调出前视红外瞄准吊舱时，雷达光标所在位置立刻出现了明确的热信号特征。 乔·罗根（Joe Rogan）好奇地打断并询问“瞄准用红外诱饵弹”（targeting flare）是不是像照明弹一样发射出去的装备。弗拉沃随即澄清，那是 ATFLIR（先进前视红外系统，Advanced Targeting Forward-Looking Infrared），安装在飞机左侧腹部，就是大众在电视转播中看到精准轰炸地面目标时那种黑白成像的瞄准吊舱。该系统集成了红外传感器、激光指示器和红外标记装置，能够与超级大黄蜂的火控系统完美交联。 - 战机在巡航时遭遇的物体外观为外层半透明球体、内部悬浮着立方体（Cube inside a sphere）。 - 物体在 90 节逆风环境下保持绝对静止，彻底排除了普通气球的可能。 - 战机装备的新型雷达与 ATFLIR 吊舱能够互相印证，在相同空域同时确认雷达回波与热特征。 --- ### [37:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ&t=2228s) “Go Fast”与“Gimbal”视频、空勤通告（NOTAM） 对话随即切入公开流传的著名军方解密视频。罗根看到屏幕画面时误以为是“Go Fast”视频，弗拉沃指出这是东海岸拍摄的另一段影像。“Go Fast”拍下的是一个类似 Tic Tac 的物体贴着海面以极高速度掠过，尽管网络上有辟谣者声称这只是机载吊舱追踪角度造成的视错觉，但弗拉沃从一线机组成员处得知情况远非如此。据弗拉沃透露，“Go Fast”和“Gimbal”两段视频极有可能是同一位后座武器系统官（WSO）拍摄的，而他的一位好友当时就在录制“Gimbal”视频的长机上。 由于航母编队中已有 60 至 70 名人员在雷达上频繁看到这些异常物体，军方为此专门发布了空勤人员通告（NOTAM），正式提醒飞行员该空域存在未知物体以防发生空中相撞。弗拉沃指出军方对此反应消极而尴尬，面对无法解释的现象只能不了了之：“因为它是全白的，没有任何涂装，没有机翼，也没有旋翼，但性能却全面超越我们拥有的任何装备。我想，要是我在它侧面涂上中国或俄罗斯的标志，反应就会截然不同了。” - 拍摄两段著名视频（Go Fast 与 Gimbal）的操作员很可能是同一名后座机组成员。 - 超过 60 到 70 名美军人员先后在先进雷达上追踪到这些目标。 - 军方并未大张旗鼓搜捕，而是发布 NOTAM 航行通告，仅作飞行安全避让提醒。 --- ### [38:25](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ&t=2305s) “Gimbal”视频背后的未公开机密：雷达编队与态势感知 当录播画面播放“Gimbal”视频时，弗拉沃向罗根和杰里米·科贝尔（Jeremy Corbell）详细解析了战机座舱内的态势感知（SA）页面。吊舱在视野中只能锁定一个主要目标进行窄视场跟踪，但在座舱主显示器“上帝视角”的 SA 页面上，火控雷达实际上监控着整片空域。弗拉沃揭示了一个此前从未向公众披露的细节：当机组人员在通话中惊呼“天哪，看看它们到处都是”时，雷达屏幕上实际上显示在主目标前方还有大约五个较小的物体排成编队飞行，随后这组小飞行器整齐掉头转向逆行，接着中央的主物体也随之发生机械般的倾斜偏转。 科贝尔在节目中情绪激动地强调这一爆料的分量，指出各大主流媒体此前从未报道过这个多机协同细节：“世界上其他人都还不知道这件事，这是《纽约时报》等任何媒体都从未报道过的全新内幕。” ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: Gimbal 传感器追踪架构 accDescr: 展示超级大黄蜂雷达与 ATFLIR 吊舱如何协同探测到 Gimbal 及其前方 V 形编队 subgraph RadarTracking["机载火控雷达态势感知 (SA 页面)"] A["雷达全空域扫描回波"] --> B["探测到前方 5 个小型编队飞行器"] A --> C["探测到后方大型主要目标 (Gimbal)"] B --> D["小型编队突然整齐掉头转弯"] end subgraph PodTracking["ATFLIR 瞄准吊舱视场"] C --> E["主目标被锁定至光学/红外视场中心"] E --> F["IR/TV 模式观测到机体周围光晕 (Aura)"] D -.->|"协同动态"| G["主要目标在无减速情况下'机腹朝前'翻转"] end ``` - 战机 SA 页面（Situational Awareness Page）相当于全空域的“上帝视角”，能显示雷达扫到的全部目标。 - 主目标前方存在由大约 5 个较小飞行物构成的飞行编队，该编队在录像进行期间完成了整齐的机动转向。 - ATFLIR 在红外（IR）模式下未检测到任何尾气烟羽（Plume），并在电视（TV）黑白模式下拍下了物体周围环绕的微弱光晕。 --- ### [40:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ&t=2402s) 逆风翻转机动与鲍勃·拉扎尔反重力推进假说 视频播放至目标在空中抵抗强风自转翻转的节点，科贝尔指出这与鲍勃·拉扎尔（Bob Lazar）多年前对地外推进器工作模式的描述惊人一致。拉扎尔曾详述反重力飞碟在低速悬停时保持水平，而在进入高速巡航阶段时，必须将机腹推进放大器对准前进方向，也就是“机腹朝前”（belly-first）飞行。弗拉沃证实，这个没有传统气动控制舵面的物体在 120 节逆风下毫无阻力衰减，极其机械化地完成侧转。 罗根指出，将最宽的面朝向迎风面在传统气动力学上是完全反直觉的。科贝尔总结称，多名顶尖飞行员和雷达均证实这绝非传感器故障：“弗拉沃指挥官离它那么近；这绝不是符合空气动力学的造物，它能以违背常理的方式机动。初次交谈时他向我形容它就像‘玻璃杯里的乒乓球’一样，瞬间加速变向，没有任何传统反冲推进装置能做到这样，有人掌握着我们武库中完全没有的技术。” - 目标物体在强逆风下以机械轴心般的姿态转动，将底部转向行进方向。 - 其运动特质被形容为毫无惯性减速与转弯弧度的瞬间加速，宛如玻璃杯中疯狂弹跳的乒乓球。 - 机体完全缺乏传统飞机的进气道、喷口、机翼或副翼结构。 --- ### [42:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ&t=2541s) 超长滞空时间与跨介质潜飞的物理学颠覆 弗拉沃从现代喷气式战机的燃料消耗极限出发，剖析了该物体的物理学不可思议之处。他指出，像超级大黄蜂这样推重比极高的高性能战机，在无空中加油、全推力格斗和高速突防的情况下，最多滞空飞行一个半小时就必须返航着陆；F-16、米格-29 或苏-27 这类机型若不挂载副油箱，留空时间同样捉襟见肘，连 B-2 隐身轰炸机也必须依赖起飞后频繁加油来维持航程。然而，雷达追踪到的这批不明飞行器能够从 80,000 英尺以上的外层空间边缘（宇航员肉眼可见地球曲率的极端高空）笔直俯冲下降，骤停在 20,000 英尺空中悬停长达三个小时，随后又毫无征兆地原路垂直拉升重返太空。 弗拉沃谈到科技层级的差距时作出生动对比：“SpaceX 实现了火箭发射并让助推器返回陆地平台着陆，这确实是非常令人惊叹的工程壮举；但放在这种技术面前，那就像是福特 T 型车遇上了保时捷超跑。”最后，他从 Tic Tac 外形酷似无缝潜艇切入，提出了一种推论：若该飞行器采用的是扭曲时空介质的非反冲式推进技术，那么空气与高密度的海水对其而言并无阻力差异，只要外壳保持密封，这种飞行器便能自由进出深海与高空，这也印证了自二战以来大量关于“跨介质不明潜水飞行物”（USO）的历史报告。 - 常规战机在高速作战工况下的留空时间通常仅有 1 到 1.5 小时。 - 目标能从 80,000 英尺以上高空瞬降至 20,000 英尺，维持静止悬停 3 小时后再垂直重返太空。 - 弗拉沃评价可回收火箭工程在反重力面前“就像福特 T 型车与保时捷超跑的差距”。 - 理论上非反冲推进能让物体无阻碍穿梭于大气与海洋之间，实现跨介质机动。 ### [44:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ&t=2685s) 跨介质场推进系统与历史目击记录 David Fravor 指出，传统的喷气发动机通过吸入空气并向后喷射产生推力，螺旋桨则通过推水产生反作用力；然而，如果某种技术能够直接操纵引力场并在“虚空”中移动，那么它就不会受到任何介质阻力的限制。理论上，这种物体可以自由飞行、潜入大洋巡航、重新跃出水面飞向太空，彻底打破了现存常规推进方式的屏障。加利福尼亚海岸长期以来就存在大量目击案例，记录到不明飞行物扎入水中或从水面破浪而出冲入太空。 Jeremy Corbell 随后补充，正如 Fravor 与 Bob Lazar 所描述的那样，这类利用场推进（field propulsion）的物体无论是在太空、空气还是水中移动，都毫无阻力，入水时甚至不会溅起水花。Corbell 甚至提及，远在克里斯托弗·哥伦布（Christopher Columbus）的航海记录中就曾记载过跨介质的不明光球现象。对此，Joe Rogan 感到十分惊讶并打断提问，确认是否有哥伦布目击 UFO 的文献记载，Corbell 证实这确实是一段文字史料。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 跨介质场推进原理对比 accDescr: 对比传统机械推力推进与先进场推进系统在不同介质中的表现差异 subgraph Conventional["传统推进方式"] A["喷气引擎 / 螺旋桨"] --> B["推挤空气或水介质"] B --> C["产生摩擦阻力、尾迹与飞溅"] end subgraph FieldPropulsion["引力场推进系统"] D["操纵周围引力场"] --> E["在自身形成的局域场中位移"] E --> F["空气 / 水体 / 太空无缝切换"] F --> G["无介质阻力、无尾迹、无水花溅起"] end ``` Corbell 强调，虽然 Fravor 的目击事件或许不是历史上海量案例中最具戏剧性的，但其产生的影响力却无出其右。关于这一划时代意义，Corbell 评价道：“Commander Fravor's encounter, it's not the most documented, it's not the most dramatic, however, it has had the most impact out of any sighting because of his credibility and the mere fact that The New York Times picked it up with video footage, radar evidence, and somebody who is as credible as Commander Fravor; it has changed the dynamic of the way people, the government responds.” 正是因为 Fravor 本人的极高信誉，配合雷达追踪数据以及《纽约时报》披露的红外视频，促使美国海军出台了全新的报告规程，推动了国会参众两院的闭门简报会，并催生了由军方牵头的全新 UFO 研究计划。 ### [46:56](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ&t=2816s) 七十九岁老妇的来电与电报秘密 Fravor 分享了一段发生在他家中的真实轶事。平时的账单留的是他妻子的电话，因此找他的人常常打到妻子手机上。某天，妻子手机显示一个加利福尼亚州的来电，平时他们不接陌生电话，但那次 Fravor 按下了接听键。电话那头是一位老妇人，小心翼翼地确认是不是 Fravor 指挥官本人。在核实身份后，她坦白自己已经 79 岁，这一辈子从未对任何人提起过接下来的这件事，如今唯独信任 Fravor 的为人，才决定说出真相。 老人讲述，她的父亲曾是一名海军军人。在她童年时期，父亲驻扎在罗德岛（Rhode Island），某天她和母亲在沙滩上散步时曾目睹过诡异的光芒。到了 20 世纪 50 年代，全家搬迁至旧金山（Fravor 推测当时可能是驻扎在金银岛/Treasure Island），她的父亲担任海军与情报机构之间的联络官。某一天，父亲带回了一份电报并破例允许年幼的她阅读。电报内容极其简练，清晰报告了在特定经纬度坐标上频繁进出水面的不明物体。 当小女孩好奇询问时，她的父亲看着她严肃地表示：“We get these all the time and it's always in the same area.”（我们经常接到这种报告，而且总是在同一个区域发生。）由于文件涉及保密，父亲当天就把电报带回部队销毁，老妇人也未能记下具体的坐标。但她表示，看到 Fravor 站出来公开作证的真诚与严谨，她感到必须在有生之年把童年的这段记忆倾诉给他。Fravor 坦言，自从他在媒体上曝光以来，收到过大量来自各界可靠民众的类似邮件和电话。 ### [49:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ&t=2940s) 夜视镜低空恶作剧与荒野传说 Fravor 随即话锋一转，分享了一段军旅生涯中的飞行员恶作剧，解释很多地面的神秘目击实际上有其人为根源。早年间，美国海军飞行员会佩戴夜视镜驾驶 F/A-18 大黄蜂战斗机进行超低空夜间飞行演练，尽管这项任务因为极度危险现已被叫停。夜视镜具有极其惊人的微光放大性能，地表 50 英里外的微弱营火在护目镜中都一清二楚。他们常常在加州中部的埃尔森特罗（El Centro）以及帝国县（Imperial）西北部的迷信山脉（Superstition Mountains）等靶场与荒原周边飞行，那里常有平民在沙漠绿洲露营。 在恶趣味幽默感的驱使下，飞行员们常在夜空搜寻地面上的露营火光，一旦发现便会戏谑地宣布“UFO 时间到了”。战机在受限空域内完全关闭防撞灯与航行灯，仅保留专供夜视镜编队使用的隐形红外标灯。飞行员将战机加速至大约 600 节（约合时速 1111 公里），随后将油门瞬间拉到慢车（idle）切断发动机喷气轰鸣，凭借极高惯性无声无息地切向营火上方。 就在飞越帐篷正上方的一瞬间，飞行员会骤然拉起机头垂直冲天，猛推两道加力燃烧室（afterburners）打出巨大烈焰，心中默念三秒倒计时后关闭加力、扬长而去。对于地面原本在寂静沙漠中仰望星空的露营者而言，原本万籁俱寂的夜空会毫无征兆地爆发出剧烈轰鸣并撕扯出刺目火光，旋即又遁入死寂消失不见。Fravor 笑着承认：“Yes, I did. Not the only one who did it, but like I said, we have a sick sense of humor.” 许多这类“天降异光”的目击电话，背后其实正是飞行员们肆意妄为的恶作剧杰作。 ### [50:58](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ&t=3058s) 墨西哥空军红外录像与 AESA 雷达解析 Joe Rogan 转向探讨 2004 年墨西哥空军巡逻机拍摄到的著名 UFO 录像。Corbell 表示，那段录像是使用 FLIR 红外侦察吊舱在反毒巡逻任务中捕获的，画面中的目标完全处于肉眼可观察的光谱之外。尽管有怀疑论者试图将其解释为近海石油钻井平台排放的燃烧尾气，但 NSA 专家及专业红外技术分析人员向 Corbell 证实，这些目标完全没有推进气流与热羽流，属于非传统推进飞行器。 Fravor 回忆道，就在 2004 年他们发生 Tic Tac 事件后不久，中队准备前往法伦（Fallon）海军航空站受训。他打开家中的 Comcast 网页主页，赫然看到头条推送了墨西哥空军在恩塞纳达（Ensenada）海岸附近同时追踪约六个不明物体的红外视频，其运动特征与他们遭遇的不明飞行物惊人一致。Corbell 指出，五角大楼发言人在接受《纽约时报》采访时罕见地脱离了预设口径，首度承认军方遭遇这种异相航天飞行器（AAV，Anomalous Aerospace Vehicles）并发生险情擦身（near misses）的频率正在显著增加。Corbell 感叹，即使是像 Elon Musk 这样走在科技前沿的人也完全不具备这种引力推进科技。 针对 Rogan 询问在 Gimbal 录像中“整整有一个机队”却只拍下单架目标的原因，Fravor 从战机雷达与光电传感器的架构上给出了解释： ```mermaid flowchart LR accTitle: AESA 雷达与 FLIR 吊舱协同追踪示意图 accDescr: 展示有源相控阵雷达的大范围多目标扫描与狭窄视场光电红外吊舱的锁定区别 subgraph TargetingPod["ATFLIR 光电红外吊舱"] P1["狭窄光学视场 (Narrow FOV)"] --> P2["高倍率放大特写锁定"] P2 --> P3["画面仅呈现单架目标"] end subgraph AESARadar["APG-73 / APG-79 AESA 雷达"] R1["固态相控阵天线面板"] --> R2["波束赋形与敏捷捷变"] R2 --> R3["边搜索边跟踪 (TWS)"] R3 --> R4["生成空域内全部目标火控级解算"] end ``` - **窄视场红外吊舱**：战机挂载的光电红外瞄准吊舱视场极窄，类似于镜头拉近特写，如果在被摄主体身旁并列有其他人，特写镜头里将只能看清正中间的那一位，因此视频单帧中仅能看见旋转的单个物体。 - **AESA 有源相控阵雷达**：机头安装的 AESA 雷达面板完全取消了传统机械天线的往复摆动扫描，依靠电子束赋形与敏捷捷变技术，在宏观扫描整个三维空域的同时，实现火控级（weapons quality solution）的多目标精确追踪。 - **宙斯盾系统同级技术**：Fravor 强调，这种“边追踪边扫描”的卓越多目标处理能力，在体制上与提康德罗加级巡洋舰上配备的宙斯盾 SPY 雷达如出一辙，因此飞行员完全能看清雷达显示器上铺满整个屏幕的飞行器编队。 ### [53:53](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ&t=3233s) Gimbal 视频中的机队与未公开的雷达数据 David Fravor 解释了美军公布的“Gimbal”视频背后的雷达探测细节。视频中飞行员惊呼“老兄，快看态势感知页面（SA page），那里有一整支舰队”，这是因为前视红外吊舱（ATFLIR pod）当时锁定的只是屏幕中央那个正在旋转的较大飞行器，而在该目标正前方，雷达屏幕上还清晰探测到了五个较小的伴随飞行器。这五个伴随目标原本处于悬停状态，随后在雷达上掉头往反方向飞行，与此同时吊舱镜头仍然死死锁住中央那个自转的主体。 Joe Rogan 提问这是否类似于一艘母舰带领数架小型飞行器，以及军方是否拍下了那些小飞行器的画面。Fravor 表示可能确属此类编队，但机载设备记录到的只有吊舱画面；即使军方内部保存有雷达屏幕的完整录像，也因为极高的保密等级而绝不可能公之于众。 ```mermaid flowchart LR accTitle: Gimbal formation radar layout accDescr: Gimbal 编队中吊舱锁定的旋转母舰目标与雷达上五个掉头的小型伴飞目标分布关系。 subgraph S1["吊舱视野 (ATFLIR Pod)"] A["中央主目标 (旋转飞行器/疑似母舰)"] end subgraph S2["雷达视野 (SA Page)"] B["前方5个较小飞行器"] end A ---|"保持悬停并自转"| S1 B -->|"掉头向反方向飞离"| S2 ``` --- ### [54:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ&t=3280s) CH-53 飞行员在波多黎各水域的惊悚遭遇 Jeremy Corbell 提醒 Fravor 讲讲此前提到过的一位直升机飞行员同僚在水下的经历。Fravor 透露，当他的 Tic Tac 遭遇战公开后，许多原本保持沉默的军方人员找上门倾诉，因为他们意识到自己不再孤单。在 Fravor 从事石油天然气承包工作期间，一位前海军 CH-53“海双脚马”（Heavy Lift）重型直升机飞行员私下向他讲述了发生在 1990 年代中后期的两次水下怪事。地点位于加勒比海波多黎各的前罗斯福路海军基地（Roosevelt Roads Naval Station）外海，那里的海水极其清澈。 当时直升机负责回收训练靶标“BQM”以及潜艇演习发射的遥测鱼雷（telemetry rounds）。这些鱼雷收集完演习数据后会排空压载水浮出海面，由直升机投放潜水员进行吊运回收。CH-53 驾驶舱座舱底部配有向下观察的透明视窗，飞行员离水面仅约 50 英尺，视野极好。在第一次回收 BQM 时，飞行员透过脚底观察窗，目睹水底深处有一团巨大的深色阴影缓缓上浮；直到蛙人与靶标被完全吊离水面，该不明水下物体才重新潜入深渊。 数月后他们执行鱼雷回收任务，当潜水员通过绞车被放到离水面仅剩 5 英尺时，飞行员再次看到一个巨大的圆形暗影从深处升起。飞行员断定那绝不是潜艇——他见过无数潜艇，绝不可能认错。极度恐慌的飞行员在机内通话系统中疯狂尖叫，命令绞车手立刻把潜水员吊上来。就在潜水员被猛拉出水面的瞬间，那枚浮在海面的鱼雷仿佛被一股巨大的吸力生生拖入海底，不明暗影随后也潜回深渊，那枚鱼雷自此彻底失踪。 - **直升机机型**：CH-53 重型运输直升机（海军陆战队与海军主力重载机型）。 - **回收目标**：BQM 无人靶机、潜艇遥测鱼雷（带有数据记录仪）。 - **潜水员遇险**：潜水员下放至距水面仅 5 英尺时，飞行员发现暗影并紧急反转绞车收线。 - **事后报告阻碍**：官方倾向于将损失解释为“鱼雷排空压载失败进水下沉”，但飞行员坚称“它完全就像是被硬生生吸下去的”。 - **媒体取舍**：《纽约时报》调查团队曾与该飞行员详谈，但因事件发生在 1990 年代而非近期，最终未将其纳入报道。 --- ### [58:19](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ&t=3499s) Go Fast 视频与对怀疑论者的反驳 对话转向由 Jamie 调出的另一段解密录像“Go Fast”。Fravor 解释该视频拍摄于与 Gimbal 相同的东海岸空域和大致相同的时间段。飞行员用肉眼发现该物体正贴着海面高速狂飙，飞行员尝试锁定它，当听到录音中年轻机组人员兴奋地大喊“抓到了！（I got it）”时，前视红外系统终于切入了自动跟踪模式。 Corbell 与 Rogan 严厉抨击了怀疑论者（如 Mick West 等人）将此类事件贬低为“鸟类、雷达故障或飞行员神经紧张”的说法。Corbell 指出，怀疑论者执拗地认为任何神秘现象都必须套用常规理性的解释，但要让所有雷达在同一时刻故障、顶尖指挥官与同飞机组全员精神失常、目标还能像炮弹般瞬间弹射，“Occam's razor as the events happen exactly like we're being told”（奥卡姆剃刀法则告诉我们，事实真相很可能正如我们所被告知的那样发生）。 --- ### [59:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ&t=3575s) 年轻女僚机飞行员的反应与指挥部隐瞒雷达情报 Fravor 回忆起当时驾驶僚机（两座型 F/A-18F）的年轻女飞行员。她当时加入中队仅四五个月，非常年轻且仍在考取该机型的初始战备资质。当收到拦截“现实世界目标”（real-world vector）的指令时，大家都以为是执行极其兴奋的实战任务；随后看到海面上翻腾的十字形水花，又误以为是有飞机坠海而转入搜救模式；直到亲眼看见那枚在水花上方急速平移弹跳的“Tic Tac”，所有人都陷入了“这到底是个什么鬼东西”的巨大震撼。 Fravor 透露，那位僚机女飞行员在事后对某些高层领导产生了强烈的厌恶与不信任感：“when you talk to her, she has a disdain for some of the leadership that didn't tell us that these things were out there”。原来，普林斯顿号巡洋舰的雷达操作员早在他们遭遇前两周，就已经持续监测到这些不明物体反复在极高空与海平面之间垂直起降。但指挥系统从未向战斗机飞行员通报任何简报，机组对此一无所知就贸然被引导至目标近距离接触。 - **知情时间差**：航母编队自 11 月初出海（11 月 14 日发生 Tic Tac 遭遇战），雷达部门在两周前就已经频繁看到这些雷达光点。 - **活动规律**：不明飞行物此前的活动通常集中在午夜至次日正午之间，避开了舰载战斗机通常的飞行训练窗口。 - **Fravor 的幽默揣测**：Fravor 笑称，如果那枚 Tic Tac 里面坐着个小绿人，它飞回母舰后多半会因为大意暴露被长官痛骂一顿：“天哪，你怎么让人类看到你了！” ### [01:02:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ&t=3732s) 水下庞然大物与战术意图猜测 Joe Rogan 询问 David Fravor 指挥官，这类飞行器究竟在做什么、尺寸是否始终如一，或者它们是否可能是从某个更大的母体中脱离出来的。Fravor 透露了自己的直觉推论：它们首先是在进行观察，其次很可能在水下进行通信。当谈及海面上出现的“十”字（十字形或 X 形）水扰动时，Fravor 再次详细描述了当时的场景：那处水下扰动大约相当于一架波音 737 客机的大小，机头朝向正东，悬浮在水面下约 10 到 15 英尺深处。当海浪经过时，就像遇到水下暗礁或海山一样在上方破碎翻滚，形成一片白色的浪花。而这片反常的白水，正是让 Fravor 和僚机在万里无云、海面平静的日子里注意到它的关键原因。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 水下异常与Tic-Tac互动关系图 accDescr: 展示Fravor观察到的海面波浪破碎、水下物体与Tic Tac飞行器的空间关系及随后消失过程 subgraph Surface["海面及水下特征"] A["水下十字形物体<br/>(尺寸约相当于一架波音737)"] -->|"位于水下10-15英尺深"| B["海浪在物体上方破碎翻浪"] B -->|"晴空下唯一的白水扰动"| C["吸引飞行员视线向下搜索"] end subgraph Air["空中飞行器互动"] C --> D["发现40英尺长的Tic-Tac在其上方盘旋"] D -->|"飞行员驾驶战机靠近追击"| E["Tic-Tac加速瞬间消失"] E --> F["再回头看海面：白水彻底消失，只剩一片蔚蓝"] end ``` 在两架大黄蜂战机掉头贴近并追击 Tic-Tac 之后，他们再次低头观察海面，原本波涛破碎的白色水花已经荡然无存，放眼望去只有一望无际的蔚蓝海水。Fravor 解释道，这证明水下之前确实存在某种实体，后来却消失了。后来他与 Lue Elizondo（路易斯·埃利桑多）探讨此事时，对方曾提出另一个战术视角：“那有没有可能是在预设战场（prepping the battlefield）？”但无论来源是中俄还是其他未知力量，Fravor 直言人类目前并不掌握这种技术。 - 水下阴影大小类似波音 737，机头指向东方，距水面约 10 至 15 英尺。 - 晴朗天气下海面无白浪（Whitecaps），水下物体的暗礁效应是发现 Tic-Tac 的唯一起因。 - 追逐发生后，水下十字形扰动与白色水花同步消失无踪。 --- ### [01:04:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ&t=3855s) 技术断代分析与虚假传言的辟谣 面对外界常有的“这只是政府绝密黑项目”的猜测，Fravor 从工程与历史逻辑进行了反驳。他指出，如果某种推进系统能够实现他们亲眼目睹的机动性，那将是全人类科学的巨大飞跃。距离 2004 年的目击事件已经过去了将近 15 年，如果当年真的有某个国家掌握了这一技术，如今这项技术早该彻底颠覆人类的民航与日常交通方式，绝不仅限于混合动力或电动汽车的渐进式改良。这个长约 40 英尺的 Tic-Tac 飞行时没有可见的推进装置、没有尾喷焰、没有羽流，却能在短短数秒内消失无踪，与 Apollo（阿波罗）登月时代或 Elon Musk 的火箭发射那种缓缓升空的化学能推进形成了强烈对比。 在被问及其他目击飞行员是否也报告过水下巨物时，Fravor 表示他接触过的同行均未提及此类水下物体。他坦言自己对某些外界谣言感到十分沮丧：有人声称完整版视频长达 10 分钟且展示了更多神迹，甚至编造黑衣人（Men in Black）登门收缴磁带的故事。Fravor 强调自己作为中队长亲自保管并看过雷达数据带，“你看到的视频就只有那么长，大概一分半钟左右，那些全都是胡扯”，如果有秘密人员要调查，为什么从不接触他们这些亲自追逐过该物体的核心目击军官。 > David Fravor：“If you have a propulsion system that made it gave the capabilities that we observed visually, that's a huge leap for mankind, period.” --- ### [01:06:51](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ&t=4011s) 70年非反作用力场推进与官方隐瞒政策 Jeremy Corbell 接过话题，将技术概念拆解通俗化。他解释称，人类现存的所有飞行推进手段都是“反作用力推进系统”（Reactionary propulsion system），即向后喷射物质以获得向前的推力；而军方记录了 70 年的此类物体，采用的是“非反作用力场推进系统”（Non-reactionary field propulsion system），本质上更接近于重力场推进。Corbell 指出，1952 年华盛顿特区发生著名的 UFO 大规模飞越事件，战机紧急升空拦截，恐慌导致电传打字机网络瘫痪。军方因担心苏联利用此类未知恐慌作为威慑手段，自此确立了掩盖与否认政策，Project Blue Book（蓝皮书计划）及其负责人 J. Allen Hynek 最初的被指派任务正是“去神秘化”与辟谣。 Corbell 强调，Pentagon 证实的雷达影像与目击记录表明，这些以两万英里时速飞行的技术在 70 年前就已存在。他为 Fravor 等军人打抱不平，指出 Fravor 是在 9·11 事件后立刻升空保卫洛杉矶领空的资深飞行员，是公众将身家性命托付的英雄，而如今网络上的键盘侠却轻描淡写地嘲弄那是“飞鸟、系统故障或超人”。 > Jeremy Corbell：“This system that we have seen for over 70 years just documented by our military, this is so important, this is a non-reactionary field propulsion system.” - 1952 年华盛顿特区 UFO 飞越事件导致全城电传通信瘫痪，促使美国军方确立了对外全面否认与辟谣的固定政策。 - 蓝皮书计划被揭露其早期职能就是执行公关降温，消除公众恐慌。 - 军方历史雷达数据曾捕捉到此类物体以高达 20,000 英里/小时的速度机动。 --- ### [01:09:54](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ&t=4194s) 历史文献与古典画作中的不明飞行物 对谈转向历史深处的早期记载。三人提及 1492 年 Christopher Columbus（哥伦布）航海日志中记录的神秘光芒事件，探讨这种现象是否自古有之。Joe Rogan 随后提到一幅著名的中世纪古典画作，其背景天空中清晰地绘制着由人驾驶、外形像倾斜盘子或碟形的奇异飞行器。 Corbell 表示自己网站建立之初就曾收录这类古代艺术作品作为证据。他特别指出另一幅绘有圣母玛利亚的 15 世纪画作（《圣母与圣芝欧凡尼尼》）：在画中人物左肩上方的天空背景中，悬浮着一个神秘的盘状物体；若将画面放大，能清晰看到远景地面上有一个人正抬手遮阳、仰头全神贯注地凝视着空中的发光体，旁边甚至还有一只仰头吠叫的狗。Corbell 补充道，因为自己的妻子是画家，他深知在古典绘画中构图绝无巧合，“每一笔细节都是画家刻意画上去的”。 ### [01:11:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ&t=4275s) 宗教画作、法蒂玛圣迹与现代感官证据 三人继续端详屏幕上调出的古典艺术画作。在基督受难图的上方，天空赫然悬浮着形似飞碟或飞行器的不明物体。Joe Rogan 提出疑问：这些存在于15世纪画作中的图案，究竟代表着外星人还是天使？Jeremy Corbell 随即联想到1917年葡萄牙发生的“法蒂玛圣迹”（Miracle of Fátima）。当年三名牧童声称持续数月收到显灵预告，最终吸引了数以万计的人群（从数万人到十余万人不等）在雨后齐聚现场，共同目击了著名的“太阳神迹”。目击人群包括虔诚的教徒、无神论者以及医生等专业人士。有人将其视为纯粹的宗教显灵，但也有人从现代角度将其解读为某种科技飞行物的降临。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 历史宗教目击与现代UFO记录对比 accDescr: 对比历史上主观解读的艺术与群体目击同现代传感器支撑的确定性证据之间的差异 subgraph Historical["历史与艺术记录（高度主观）"] A["15世纪宗教画作<br>（受难图上方的不明飞行物）"] B["1917年法蒂玛圣迹<br>（数万人目击未知天象）"] A & B --> C{"存在多重主观解读<br>宗教神迹 vs 外星接触"} end subgraph Modern["现代军事接触（多重验证）"] D["多名顶尖飞行员目击"] E["SPY-1 / 机载雷达系统追踪"] F["ATFLIR 前视红外视频锁定"] D & E & F --> G["硬核技术证据网络<br>无法轻易被主观解构"] end ``` Corbell 强调，对古老画作和历史群体事件的解读可以众说纷纭、莫衷一是，但当下的环境截然不同。现在的现象不再依靠画笔来主观记录，而是拥有专业飞行员的肉眼实击、相控阵雷达的数据捕捉以及前视红外视频的硬核录像。这种由雷达、视频和多名目击者构成的综合证据链，将不明飞行物现象带入了一个完全无法被轻易解构的新时代。 - 屏幕上展示的15世纪受难画作中，背景天空中绘有明显的碟状或发光载具形态。 - 1917年法蒂玛事件聚集了大量不同背景的民众，目击现场留下的人群照片虽然真实，但天象影像往往带有后人加工痕迹。 - Jeremy Corbell 指出当代证据的革命性：“我们现在处于一个不同的时代，我们不必去画它，老兄，我们能亲眼看到它。”（“We're in a different era now. We don't have to paint it, man. We get to see it.”） --- ### [01:13:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ&t=4394s) 所谓的“怀疑论者”与思维体操 谈到公信力时，Joe Rogan 直言，如果是某个神志不清的狂热分子空口无凭地宣称看到了外星人，根本不会引起他的注意；正是因为 David Fravor 这类具备顶级专业素养的飞行员站出来作证，整件事才变得无比震撼。他极度反感某些自诩为“怀疑论者”的人对待此事的态度——那些人并非抱着“这到底是什么未知事物”的开放求知欲，而是带着既定的心理偏见，竭尽全力进行各种“思维体操”（mental gymnastics），试图将一切证据强行解释为假的。在 Rogan 看来，真正的科学精神应当摒弃所有先入为主的偏见，以纯粹客观的态度研究数据，而不是为了贴上怀疑论的标签而偷懒。 视频中目标物体瞬间向左平移并以超乎寻常的速度急剧加速脱离，仅这一段红外影像就足以令人震惊。Fravor 澄清道，视频是由随后升空的另一组机组人员（Chad Underwood 等人）拍摄的，而他和另外三名机组人员（共两架战机四只眼睛）是在白昼肉眼近距离观察了整整五分钟。回到航母后，他们四人面面相觑、百思不得其解，除了震撼与困惑外别无他法。Fravor 认为，雷达系统之后很可能经常捕捉到这类目标，军方只是未向公众披露，且舰艇在远海探测到微弱信号时通常也缺乏手段立刻赶赴现场查明真相。 > “在视频中展示的那架东西滑向左侧，以难以置信的速度疾驰而去，单凭这一点就足以让人们吓得魂飞魄散。”—— Joe Rogan（“That video that you show where that thing slips off to the left and takes off at incredible rates of speed, that alone should freak people the fuck out.”） > “我们四个人用肉眼看了它整整五分钟，我们都有同样的经历，我们看到了一模一样的景象，回来后大家面面相觑、抓耳挠腮，心想‘这他妈到底是个啥？’”—— David Fravor（“We watched it for five minutes with our eyeballs, and there was four of us, and we all have the same story, we all saw the same stuff, we all came back and looked at each other and scratched our head and said WTF.”） --- ### [01:15:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ&t=4530s) 忽视未知威胁的惰性与潜艇类比 Rogan 询问 Fravor，当战备值班人员告知他们“过去两周雷达一直在追踪这些物体”时，是否有人去追问这种现象到底持续了多久、发生频率如何。Fravor 表示当时身处瞬息万变的空战演训中，来不及深究历史背景，但人类与军方对于无法理解的事物，往往存在一种危险的惰性思维：“只要我们不知道它是什么，如果我们忽视它，它就会自己消失。” 为了说明这种态度的荒谬，Fravor 打了个比方：当年“星座号”航空母舰（USS Constellation）在退役前进行部署前训练考核（Workups）时，一艘苏联奥斯卡级（Oscar-class）巡航导弹核潜艇突然在其后方破水上浮。那一瞬间，全舰立刻进入战备状态，犹如第三次世界大战爆发，所有人都在追问外国潜艇究竟是如何突破外围警戒、潜入核心防区监视美军演习的。反观这次事件，美军驾驶的是刚从波音工厂出厂、性能顶尖的全新 F/A-18F 双座超级大黄蜂（Block II 系列），却在自家庭院遭遇了飞行性能完全碾压己方的未知物体，两架战机四名飞行员确证这既不是传统飞机也不是气象气球，然而军方高层事后却无动于衷，缺乏后续追踪与应对机制。 - 历史案例：“星座号”航母在演习期间遭遇苏联奥斯卡级核潜艇近距离上浮，引发高层极大震动并全面戒备。 - 装备差距：Fravor 驾驶的超级大黄蜂战机属于首批 Block II 批次，拥有当时最先进的航电设备，却被该物体在机动性和加速度上彻底碾压。 - 军方态度反思：“我们有一种倾向，如果我们不知道它是什么，只要去忽视它，它就会自动消失。”（“We have a tendency if we don't know what it is, if we just ignore it, it'll go away.”） --- ### [01:17:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ&t=4636s) 闭门听证会与鲍勃·拉扎尔 Fravor 指出，自2017年底《纽约时报》头条文章曝光后，过去两年情况有了积极转变。美国海军正式承认了这些现象并出台了全新的不明航空现象报告准则。军方内部有一套持续运转的惯性：即便外界认为五角大楼的 AATIP（先进航空威胁识别项目，在五年内耗资2200万美元）已经终止，底层的情报与调查机制也绝不会真正停摆。 Fravor 透露，他曾两次前往华盛顿特区，与极高级别的政府官员举行闭门会议。在私密会谈中，多位高层官员听完详尽汇报后惊呼“你一定是在开玩笑吧”，但在确认事实后都开始极度严肃地对待这一威胁。当谈到“新任总统是否知晓一切”的经典谜团时，Rogan 指出可能根本没人掌握全貌，面对超出当前科学理解的异象，人们手中掌握的信息其实非常匮乏。Fravor 顺着技术话题提到了鲍勃·拉扎尔（Bob Lazar）。Fravor 与拉扎尔曾同台参加过公开活动，他评价拉扎尔是一个完全正常的普通人，绝非外界抹黑的疯子，并表示自己曾当面询问过拉扎尔关于其所描述的外星推进技术与反重力物理机制的细节。 - AATIP 项目官方披露的五年预算总额约为2200万美元（平均每年约450万美元）。 - Fravor 曾两度赴华盛顿特区向高层政府官员（High-level government officials）提供闭门证词。 - 对于鲍勃·拉扎尔的个人印象，Fravor 直言：“鲍勃是个正常人，鲍勃一点也不疯，完全不疯。”（“Bob's a normal guy. Bob's not crazy, he's not crazy at all.”） ### [01:19:56](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ&t=4796s) 逆向工程难题与太平洋夜空下的宇宙孤独感 大卫·弗拉沃（David Fravor）回顾起自己与人探讨逆向工程地外飞行器的对话。当弗拉沃询问以人类现有的科技水平，究竟需要多久才能完全理解并仿造出那种飞行器时，对方的回答令人不寒而栗：“还得再过一百年，戴夫，那东西远远超出了我们的想象。”转录中提到，那艘飞行器内部完全没有现代机械所必需的电线或管道；早年描述它时，人们只能用“先做好模具再像热蜡一样浇筑”来比喻，而放在今天，它更像是通过某种先进的 3D 打印技术整体一次成型——没有拼接面板，没有铆钉，浑然一体。弗拉沃指出，即便我们缴获了实物，如果它是由地球上根本无法稳定存在的物质驱动（比如只能在实验室存在微秒级随即衰变的 115 号元素），我们依然根本无法破解其核心机理。 这种对深空科技的敬畏，让弗拉沃联想到自己在太平洋上空执飞巡逻时的切身体会。在没有丝毫地面光害的大洋中心，飞行员戴着夜视镜等待加油机对接，无事可做时便打开自动驾驶盘旋。弗拉沃常常关掉驾驶舱内的所有仪表灯光，仰起头透过座舱罩仰望星空，视野中是数以百亿计的璀璨恒星。弗拉沃动情地反问，在如此宏大的宇宙尺度下，如果人类真的是唯一的智慧生命，那将是何等荒凉而孤独的景象。他曾向自己的天体物理学教授提出过这个问题：“你相信有外星生命吗？”对方轻描淡写地回答“当然不信”，这让弗拉沃大为震惊。面对数以千亿计的行星，坚信人类独一无二在概率上是站不住脚的。弗拉沃直言自己并非疯癫，只是理性地正视科学上的极大可能性。 * 对方对人类逆向工程所需时间的预估：“还得再过一百年（another hundred years）”。 * 飞行器的结构特征：无电线、无外露铆钉、无拼接面板，类似原子级或先进 3D 打印一体成型。 * 115 号元素在地球实验室环境下仅能人工合成存在数微秒便发生衰变。 * 弗拉沃反思宇宙孤单感时强调：“如果只有我们存在，面对我所仰望的一切，那将是一个相当悲凉、相当孤独的宇宙。” --- ### [01:22:06](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ&t=4926s) 荒诞骗局的阴影与战斗机飞行员的纯粹本能 乔·罗根（Joe Rogan）指出，大多数人不愿公开承认外星生命的存在，很大程度上是因为害怕自己显得愚蠢可笑。长期以来，UFO 这一话题被大量招摇撞骗者和臆想狂所绑架，充斥着编造的荒唐故事。罗根提到了臭名昭著的瑞士接触者比利·迈尔（Billy Meier），此人拍摄的大量所谓飞碟照片后来被证实全部是粗劣的骗局模型。杰里米·科贝尔（Jeremy Corbell）对此补充分析道，UFO 圈子里确实存在一种心理病态：有些人或许曾经有过一次真实的未知体验，但在余生中为了“追逐那最初的震撼”，精神彻底失常，开始编造谎言来维持关注，这就是所谓的“UFO 综合征”。 正是在这种充斥着狂热与欺骗的舆论泥潭中，弗拉沃作为顶级飞行员的真实反应显得格外珍贵和纯粹。当弗拉沃在雷达和肉眼中亲历了那个被称为 AAV（异常航空飞行器）的“Tic Tac”物体以违背空气动力学的方式机动时，他的第一反应并不是恐惧或神秘主义崇拜，而是一个王牌飞行员最原始的征服欲。弗拉沃回忆，任务结束返回航母后，执行官（XO）戴尔（Dell）走过来问他：“伙计，你觉得那到底是个什么玩意？”弗拉沃毫不掩饰自己的震撼与向往，当场给出了全场最帅气的回答。面对人类无法企及的速度与机动性，弗拉沃表现得就像一个看到顶级超跑的赛车手，只想坐进座舱踩下油门。 弗拉沃回忆起自己当时对执行官说的话，掷地有声地总结道：“我不知道那是什么，但它他妈的太令人印象深刻了，而且我很想开开看。”（“I have no idea but it was pretty freakin impressive and I'd like to fly it.”） --- ### [01:23:36](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ&t=5016s) 重力推进与时空扭曲：打破星际距离的思维桎梏 杰里米·科贝尔针对怀疑论者常挂在嘴边的反驳提出了强力质疑。很多传统学者认为，即便地外文明存在，他们也绝不可能造访地球，因为星系间的物理距离动辄数光年至数百光年，以传统推进方式根本无法跨越。杰里米指出，从鲍勃·拉扎尔（Bob Lazar）当年站出来揭秘开始，这套逻辑的前提就被彻底颠覆了：如果飞行器使用的是场推进或重力推进技术，星际旅行中的传统“物理距离”概念就会完全失效。雷达遥测与弗拉沃的目视观察均证实，该飞行器就像水杯里的乒乓球一样瞬间变轨，急加速过程中却不会产生撕裂机体的毁灭性过载，这正是因为它是在利用人造重力场弯曲时空，直接“滑落”到目的地。 罗根用技术代差打了个形象的比方：如果在摄影术和录像技术被发明之前的漫长古代，有人拿出一台智能手机向路人展示一段活动视频，所有古人都会将此视为巫术或疯话；即便是宗教油画中那些背景里酷似飞碟的神秘物体，也是古人在缺乏现代词汇的情况下对所见之物的原始描摹。杰里米接着指出，拉扎尔在 1989 年面对超越时代的外星机器时，也只能用当年最前沿的工业概念——如“注塑成型”——来描述其无缝外壳。直到后来纳米技术与原子级 3D 打印概念普及，人们才恍然大悟。杰里米强调，现代物理学其实并不排斥重力放大和瞬时位移的理论，人类被困住的不是基础理论，而是极端匮乏的材料科学与能量来源。 杰里米·科贝尔在驳斥距离不可能论时直截了当地说道：“根据最初鲍勃·拉扎尔站出来谈到的场推进与重力推进，距离在星际旅行中变得完全无关紧要。”（“From the very beginning when Bob Lazar came forward and talked about field propulsion, gravity propulsion, distance becomes completely irrelevant.”） ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 重力推进与传统航天推进方式的对比 accDescr: 对比传统工质推进与时空重力场推进在跨越星际距离时的机制差异与技术限制 subgraph 传统推进方式 A["化学/工质喷气推进"] --> B["受限于光速与物理距离"] B --> C["跨星系航行耗时数十万年"] C --> D["结论：怀疑论者判定不可能造访"] end subgraph 重力场推进方式 E["放大局部重力场 / 扭曲时空"] --> F["消除惯性过载，无阻力瞬时位移"] F --> G["距离概念失效：折叠空间直接抵达"] G --> H["实现星际穿越的可能性"] end subgraph 人类当前瓶颈 I["理论物理层面允许"] --> J["材料科学与燃料极端匮乏"] end H -.-> J ``` --- ### [01:25:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ&t=5152s) S-4 基地多方证人现身与雅克·瓦莱的 17 份超材料样本 杰里米·科贝尔进一步披露了更多围绕内华达州 S-4 基地的确凿证据。他表示，外界常常纠缠于对鲍勃·拉扎尔个人经历的细节挑刺，但这早已掩盖不了项目的真实存在。杰里米透露，自己手中已经掌握了多位愿意站出来的全新线人：其中包括亲眼目睹拉扎尔在拉斯维加斯登降秘密专机“珍妮特航班”（Janet flights）的工作人员；曾前往帕普斯湖（Papoose Lake）并遭到非军方神秘武装安保拦截的目击者；甚至包括一位与杰里米沟通了数年、深知 4 号区（Site-4）及地外技术开发项目的退役 SR-71“黑鸟”侦察机飞行员。这些来自军方与机密部门的声音，正逐渐拼凑出美国军方长期秘密运作外星逆向工程计划的完整拼图。 与证人证言相呼应的，是物理证据的浮出水面。《纽约时报》自 2017 年底起便披露五角大楼正在对 UFO 相关残骸展开研究。杰里米提到，传奇 UFO 学家兼计算机科学家雅克·瓦莱（Jacques Vallée）——也就是好莱坞电影《第三类接触》中法国科学家的现实原型、当年“蓝皮书计划”最早的数据库开发者——手里保存着多达 17 份从已知坠毁或掉落事件中收集的物理样本。杰里米透露，大约五年前，他曾亲自护送其中部分著名的金属超材料（Metamaterials）前往新墨西哥州，交付给五位科学家进行深度检测。这些材料展现出极其诡异的微观结构：不仅在元素结合方式上极度反常，其多层交叠的工艺更是达到了原子级别的精密分层。这种超越当代冶金学的物理实体，正在成为解开外星科技之谜的关键突破口。 * 杰里米联络的新证人包括一名服役多年的 SR-71“黑鸟”飞行员及多名帕普斯湖周边的知情者。 * 雅克·瓦莱拥有长达数十年的高等级军方数据库访问权限，手中保存有 17 份从未知飞行器脱落或坠毁现场取得的物理材料。 * 超材料的核心疑点在于其原子尺度的多层物理结构，现代材料科学正在测试其同位素比率与分子结合机制是否属于非自然产物。 ### [01:28:36](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ&t=5316s) 坠毁残骸超材料与材料科学的滞后瓶颈 Jeremy Corbell 描述了他经手的坠毁事件残骸样本，尺寸从橙子大小到 25 美分硬币大小不等。这些材料存在于民间公共领域，而非完全处于政府掌控之下。他曾邀请科学家对这些样本进行同位素和元素构成分析，试图查明它们是否经过人工工程改造。尽管 Corbell 将最终结论留给拥有更尖端分析仪器的机构发布，但他透露，这些样本在原子尺度上呈现出类似于石墨烯的定向层状排布（Atomic Layering），这种特殊的几何定向正是形成超导体等超材料（Metamaterial）的基础。 Corbell 用石墨烯的超导特性做比喻：如果一块石墨烯经过极精密的加工、原子层未受扰动，将其放在厚冰块上，它会像“热刀切黄油”一样瞬间滑落穿透冰层，因为人手的体温会通过超导体极速传导并融化冰块。这种自然界不存在的人造超材料赋予了特殊物理性能。因此，若这些材料来自外星或不明文明，必然经过了极其高度的机械加工以服务特定用途。Corbell 指出，当前人类的根本瓶颈在于材料科学的发展未能赶上对场推进（Field Propulsion）系统的物理学理解： > “我们的材料科学在 1989 年和今天都是我们的限制因素，随着人类材料科学的进步，我们知道这些东西是如何运作的。” 这解释了技术保密的根本动机：各大国都在争相破解并逆向利用这种颠覆性技术。如果出现非反作用推进系统（Non-reactionary Propulsion System），世界的地缘政治格局将瞬间重塑，因此美国绝不希望被俄罗斯或中国抢先攻克。 - 样本特征：尺寸在硬币至橙子大小之间，具备原子级分层结构。 - 技术保密动因：谁先成功逆向并应用无工质场推进技术，谁就能彻底主导未来战略格局。 --- ### [01:30:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ&t=5444s) “Tic Tac”事件后的世界观重塑与反作用推进的思维定势 Joe Rogan 询问 David Fravor，“Tic Tac”目击事件是否改变了他看待世界和人类地位的视角。Fravor 表示自己从来不相信人类在宇宙中是孤独的，繁星浩瀚早已证明了这一点；但经历事件后，他的思考变得更加明确，内心反复追问：“它究竟从何而来？它在干什么？为什么偏偏是我遇上？”面对外界的怀疑论者，Fravor 直言： > “首先，别再试图去拆台辟谣了，因为事实就是事实，那不是系统故障，而是一场真实发生的事件；第二，让我们把视野稍微放宽一点，开始跳出思维定势去思考。” Fravor 剖析了人类技术的局限性：人类早期的发明家率先搞出了反作用推进系统（Reactionary Propulsion System），这便成为了文明的既定技术标准；反之，如果我们最初走的是非反作用路线，回头看汽油发动机反而会觉得匪夷所思。他以爱因斯坦的理论至今不断被证实、以及人类曾经坚信地平说为例，说明科学真理随着认知扩大而不断颠覆。这种技术如果得以研发，其意义将远远超越军事层面，而是彻底改变整个人类文明的生活方式。 --- ### [01:33:05](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ&t=5585s) 三维空间的驾驭难度与战斗机飞行员的升维视角 Fravor 和 Rogan 谈及，若将这种推进系统民用化，人类的心智其实很难驾驭。正如早年间人们设想直升机会普及为“飞行汽车”，但现实中许多人在二维平面上开车都状况百出，根本无法应对包含“上与下”的三维空间操作。 作为资深战斗机飞行员，Fravor 对“真正进入第三维度”有着截然不同的体验：普通人眼中的三维可能只是站在地面仰望一座 1700 英尺的高楼；而在空战中，让一架 F/A-18 战机执行一次“破胴翻转”（Split-S，即翻滚倒转后垂直向下做 180 度反转俯冲拉起），哪怕是非常极限紧凑的转弯，垂直高度落差也需要 2500 英尺。在空中做大迎角（High Alpha）机动会极快地损失能量，代价极其高昂。人类至今制造的喷气式发动机本质上依旧是“一边吸气、一边吹气”的传统机器，百年来仅仅是在打磨内部涡轮以微调效率，缺乏底层物理原理的跨越。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: Dimensional Perspectives and Technology Evolution accDescr: Diagram contrasting human 2D travel limits with fighter jet 3D combat and non-reactive propulsion. subgraph GroundLevel["地面人类认知局限"] A["二维平面驾驶习惯<br/>（地面交通易拥堵事故）"] B["高楼仰视视点<br/>（高度感知局限于垂直结构）"] end subgraph Aviation["传统航空工程瓶颈"] C["喷气式吸气/吹气发动机<br/>（依靠内部涡轮增效，边际递减）"] D["F/A-18 Split-S 俯冲机动<br/>（需消耗 2500 英尺高度与巨大动能）"] end subgraph ParadigmShift["跨越式推进技术"] E["非反作用 / 磁场重力推进<br/>（彻底跳出气动与工质反冲限制）"] end A -.->|"心智难以应对 3D 飞行"| C B -.-> D C -->|"底层范式突破"| E D -->|"消除气动与过载代价"| E ``` --- ### [01:34:39](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ&t=5679s) 臭氧工厂的磁学探索与颠覆性技术的扩散困局 Fravor 透露，他曾与洛克希德·马丁公司臭氧工厂（Skunk Works）的前高管 Steve Justus 深入探讨过这一领域。当前的主流物理界极少深入涉足某些特定的磁学领域，而在 Justus 执掌臭氧工厂期间，他曾特批使用 IRAD（内部研究与开发，Internal Research and Development）专项资金，试图探索这些未知的替代推进技术。 在不涉及保密级别的前提下与 Justus 交流让 Fravor 深受启发。谈及核心技术的严格封密，Fravor 表示完全理解军方的戒备逻辑：这如同二战时期的原子弹研发竞赛，德国险些得手，苏联紧追不舍，最终美国率先造出并永远改写了世界历史。一旦这种具备压倒性优势的“跨越式技术”（Quantum Leap）被某一方研发出来并严密独占，开发者将立刻面临两难抉择： > “你是因为它属于全人类而选择共享它，还是选择把它留给自己？目前这不需要由我来决定，我只是戴夫。” --- ### [01:36:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ&t=5767s) 文明断层的降维打击：从 element 115 到部落平板电脑 Joe Rogan 感慨，身处 2019 年的人类往往盲目自大，守着电力和 LED 屏幕就自以为抵达了探索的最高峰、站在了文明科技的顶端。然而，若存在能轻松获取 115 号元素（Element 115）并利用重力推进系统跨越星际的高等智慧生物，它们看待人类的目光，恐怕就像我们看在山洞石壁凿洞避雨的原始穴居人一样。 Fravor 完全赞同这一视角，指出人类文明内部至今就存在着巨大的技术断层：在第一世界与发达国家之外，地球上仍有大量人口靠水桶从泥坑里汲水维生，雨林深处更有与世隔绝的原住民过着最原始的生活。如果把一台正在实时录制、实时回显画面的高清平板屏幕直接递给从未见过现代科技的孤立部落族人，并向他们展示他们自己活动的影像，对他们而言，那无异于无法理解的神迹，他们会当场吓得魂飞魄散。这与人类直面“Tic Tac”飞行器所感受到的降维震慑如出一辙。 ### [01:37:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ&t=5855s) 近距离接触后的认知印证与五角大楼的高层会面 当被问及这次亲身经历是否彻底改变了自己对人生的看法时，戴维·弗拉沃（David Fravor）解释说，这更像是一种内心长期猜想的印证与确认。仰望浩瀚星空时，许多人都会产生“人类并非唯一”的直觉，而当你真正亲眼目睹这种超乎常理的物体时，那种感觉就像是最终拿到了确凿证据。弗拉沃直言，有些人觉得半英里（约 800 米）听起来还挺远，“但当你以极高速度驾驶飞机时，半英里已经是极近的危险距离了”。他笑着说，除非哪天真的有一架不明飞行物直接降落在他家前院草坪上，他才会百分之百下定论，但这次遭遇已经彻底证实了未知现象的存在。 随着 2017 年《纽约时报》头版轰动性报道的刊发，弗拉沃与军方及政界高层的接触迅速升温。事件中的另一位关键当事人——与他同行的女性战机飞行员（亚历克斯·迪特里希）在此之前就曾数次被召往华盛顿特区。五角大楼的人员会把她带到各种隐秘地点问话，从地下机密保密室（SCIF）甚至到五角大楼内的星巴克。军方人员曾反复拿其他资料（例如“Gimbal”旋转飞碟视频或各种静态照片）向她求证：“这东西看起来像不像你见到的？”这让她感到既无奈又哭笑不得，她直接回呛对方：“我们之所以管它叫 Tic Tac，就是因为它长得一模一样就像一颗 Tic Tac 薄荷糖！到底哪一部分你们听不明白？去买一盒糖看一眼不就懂了！” 得知这一情况后，弗拉沃便让战友把自己的联系方式给军方对接人，随后他亲自前往国会山与国防部高层进行简报汇报。原本这些行程极其紧张的要员只批了短短 20 分钟的时间窗口，但在弗拉沃生动的还原和严谨的专业叙述下，会议直接延长到了一个半小时。在场的军政高官完全听入迷了，甚至震惊地追问他是不是在开玩笑。弗拉沃严肃地告诉他们这一切毫无夸张、真实发生，这也促使高层官员开始深刻反思：如果某种飞行物能随时凭空出现、展现出颠覆现有物理认知的机动性而军方却毫无防备，国家安全层面就必须对此予以正视。 “‘我们之所以管它叫 Tic Tac，就是因为它长得像一颗 Tic Tac 薄荷糖，到底哪一部分你们听不明白？’”弗拉沃在转述战友当年面对五角大楼官员反复询问时的抓狂反应时这样说道。 --- ### [01:40:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ&t=6040s) 国防预算九牛一毛与跨部门调查的协作死穴 围绕政府调查此类现象的资金投入，弗拉沃与乔·罗根算了一笔账。外界在媒体报道哈里·里德（Harry Reid）参议员推动设立的“先进航空航天威胁识别计划”（AATIP）时，往往对“2200 万美元”这一数字大惊小怪。但事实上，这笔经费是分摊在整整五年里的，平均每年仅有区区 440 万美元。在美国刚刚通过的高达 7500 亿美元的国防预算盘子里，每年 440 万美元甚至连四舍五入的记账误差都算不上。即便从中拨出整整 1 亿美元专门用于 UAP 研究，对庞大的军费总额来说依然无伤大雅。弗拉沃指出，“蓝皮书计划”的历史数据表明，绝大多数目击报告都可以被排查排除（比如他在夜间开着加力燃烧室从篝火营地上空掠过造成的误报），剩下的仅有 10% 到 15% 属于真正无法解释的核心未知案例，因此一个小规模的精干团队完全足以集中资金办大事。 然而，经费如何使用才是核心症结。弗拉沃在与前国防部副助理部长克里斯托弗·梅隆（Christopher Mellon）交流后，对官僚体制的运转逻辑有了更清醒的认知。他向高层建言：如果真的要拨款 1 亿美元设立正规项目，重中之重是必须建立强有力的“独立监督机构”与跨部门协同机制。 弗拉沃特别以“9/11”事件的惨痛教训作为前车之鉴：当时各大情报部门手中各自掌握着关键拼图，却因相互壁垒、互不沟通，最终酿成悲剧。如果这笔资金只是简单分发给政府旗下的 Agency A、B、C 等不同情报或军种部门，而大家各自为政、闭门造车，不仅技术研究毫无进展，还会因为扯皮和重叠开支招致公众“欺诈、浪费与滥用公款”的抨击。唯一的出路是指定单一领导者统筹，逼迫所有人坐在同一个沙盒里通力合作。 “‘我完全赞成你们为项目拨款，但你们必须建立一个能进行有效监督的机制。’”弗拉沃总结了他对国会及国防高层的核心建言。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 跨部门 UFO 调查资金与协作架构 accDescr: 对比资金分散到各部门导致的孤岛效应与集中监督机制下的协同调查模式。 subgraph FailureMode ["低效孤岛模式（9/11 式教训）"] Budget1["1 亿美元纳税人资金"] --> AgencyA["机构 A (闭门自研)"] Budget1 --> AgencyB["机构 B (闭门自研)"] Budget1 --> AgencyC["机构 C (闭门自研)"] AgencyA -.互不通气.- AgencyB AgencyB -.信息壁垒.- AgencyC AgencyC --> Waste["公款浪费与公众问责 (Fraud & Waste)"] end subgraph FravorModel ["弗拉沃提议的联合协同模式"] Budget2["专项国防调查基金"] --> Leader["单一总负责人 (跨部门统筹)"] Leader --> Oversight["严格审计与联合监督平台"] Oversight --> DataShare["情报无缝共享与技术攻坚"] end ``` --- ### [01:42:56](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ&t=6176s) 绝密视频的意外泄密与数十载的飞行器形态谱系 讨论转向了其他公开的军方遭遇视频。罗根提到在著名的“Gimbal”视频中，拍到的飞行器与 Tic Tac 外形明显不同。弗拉沃证实，那确实展现了另一种截然不同的飞行构造，而“GoFast”视频中的物体则较接近 Tic Tac。在谈及机密影像外流时，弗拉沃以汤姆·克鲁斯主演电影《美国制造》的原型人物巴里·希尔（Barry Seal）为例说明保密的危险性：当年里根政府擅自公开了希尔在运输机货舱内偷拍麦德林毒枭走私的机密照片，毒枭一眼认出角度，直接导致卧底希尔遭到残忍暗杀。因此，军方在解密资料时极度警惕拍摄传感器和机载平台的敏感参数暴露。 关于 2004 年“Tic Tac”原始 FLIR 视频的流出，背后还有一段荒诞的插曲。大约在 2008 年弗拉沃退役后不久，当年飞在他后座的武器系统官（WSO）给他发来一封邮件，神秘地问：“长官，这看着眼熟吗？”随信附带了一个链接，那段视频竟然堂而皇之地出现在了成人娱乐网站 `strangeland.com` 上，随后又被搬运到了 YouTube。多年来，弗拉沃向密友讲述这次遭遇时，甚至都是直接随手分享该 YouTube 链接。直到军方后来开展非正式的官方调查时，该视频才突然被全网下架。弗拉沃当时当面质问军方调查员：“你们真正该查的，是一段被列为‘机密’（Secret）的 FLIR 影像，到底是怎么从航母上的保密存储驱动器里流出，最后挂在成人网站和 YouTube 上的？”弗拉沃澄清，当年将其定为机密并非因为拍到了 UFO，而是因为 ATFLIR 显示屏周围显示了战机的高度、自动驾驶状态及 250 节表速等作战系统性能参数。 随后，杰里米·科贝尔（Jeremy Corbell）介入了讨论，强调军方和民间数十年间记录到的不明飞行器存在极其丰富的形态谱系，包括经典的雪茄形、球形、巨型母舰等。就连当年声称在 S-4 区工作的鲍勃·拉扎（Bob Lazar），也曾直言自己亲眼目睹了九种外形各异但基于相同重力推进系统的飞行器。最后科贝尔澄清了一个长久以来的公众误解：当年哈里·里德争取来的 2200 万美元款项，官方正式受资助的代号其实是“先进航空航天武器系统应用项目”（AAWSAP），而非后来被媒体广泛报道的 AATIP，AAWSAP 才是这笔专款的真正法定归属。 “‘你们真正需要调查清楚的，是这玩意儿到底是怎么从航母的机密驱动器系统里跑出去，最后沦落到流传在成人网站和 YouTube 上的。’”弗拉沃直言不讳地指出军方信息管控当年的荒唐漏洞。 - **视频泄密历程**：2004 年事件发生后，红外视频存储于航母机密系统，约 2008 年现身非安全网站，2017 年纽时报道前曾长期在网络上低调流传。 - **保密等级原因**：机密属性并非专门掩盖外星生物，核心是为了保护美军雷达与光学吊舱（ATFLIR）的机载数据参数接口。 - **项目代号修正**：五角大楼最初获得 2200 万美元资助的项目全称为 AAWSAP（Advanced Aerospace Weapon System Applications Program），AATIP 则是后续更具针对性的延伸标识。 ### [01:45:42](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ&t=6342s) 澄清 AATIP 与 AAWSAP 的政府资助及飞行器形态 杰里米·科贝尔（Jeremy Corbell）澄清了有关美国政府 UFO 研究项目资金的媒体混淆。他指出，《纽约时报》在此事上的报道存在误解：当年广为报道的 2200 万美元拨款实际上属于由“皮务克牧场”（Skinwalker Ranch）催生的 AAWSAP（高级航空航天威胁识别计划），旨在研究包括 UFO 及其关联现象在内的课题；而 AATIP（高级航空威胁识别计划）则是专注于军用 UFO 遭遇事件的研究计划。两者虽然彼此沟通并共享情报，但属于各自独立资助的项目，科贝尔认为公众未来还会了解到更多其他的机密计划。 话题随后转到了飞行器的物理形态与动力推进上。乔·罗根（Joe Rogan）提及鲍勃·拉扎尔（Bob Lazar）当年在 S-4 基地所见到的九种不同飞行器外观，拉扎尔虽然只近距离接触过其中一架，但九架中没有任何一架长得像 2004 年的“Tic Tac”（药丸形不明飞行物）。科贝尔解释说，在军方目击以超过两万英里时速飞行的物体的历史记录中，长条药丸形并不罕见，三角翼形和长方形也常有记录，而这些目击记录唯一的共同核心在于它们都展示了某种“非反冲推进系统”（non-reactionary propulsion system）。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: AAWSAP 与 AATIP 的项目区分与关系 accDescr: 展示两个独立资金来源但在研究层面进行情报互通的美国政府 UFO 计划 subgraph GovFunding["美国政府资金划分"] F1["2200 万美元国会专项拨款"] --> Prog1["AAWSAP<br>(高级航空武器系统应用计划)"] F2["独立渠道专项资金"] --> Prog2["AATIP<br>(高级航空威胁识别计划)"] end subgraph Scope["核心研究范围"] Prog1 --> S1["皮务克牧场及关联异常物理现象"] Prog2 --> S2["美军军方遭遇不明飞行物事件"] end Prog1 <-->|"共享情报与协同合作"| Prog2 ``` 大卫·弗拉沃指挥官（Cmdr. David Fravor）结合自身经验，回顾了 Tic Tac 察觉到他的战斗机时的诡异反应。起初，该物体并没有传统飞行器的机头指向或转弯动作，只是在海面上空以完全不可预测的轨迹忽左忽右、前后移动。当弗拉沃驾机从高空俯冲绕圈接近时，该物体突然以机头（如果那算机头的话）转过来，并在另一侧同步镜像弗拉沃的盘旋轨迹向上爬升。弗拉沃证实对方显然清楚战斗机就在那里，甚至在随后其他战机试图用雷达锁定时，Tic Tac 实施了主动电子压制与干扰，彻底废掉了雷达系统，直到查德·埃弗哈特（Chad）及时将传感器切换为光电红外模式才拍下了那段流传于世的黑白红外视频。正如罗根所感叹的，在军事交战规则中，对雷达进行主动干扰是一项极具敌意且技术层次极高的大动作。 - “《纽约时报》弄错了，当时的情况是，AATIP 是一个单独获得资助、用于研究军方与 UFO 遭遇事件的计划，而 AAWSAP 是因为皮务克牧场而设立的、一个旨在研究 UFO 及相关现象的政府计划；AATIP 和 AAWSAP 相互沟通并共享情报，但它们是独立资助的，所以那 2200 万美元是给 AAWSAP 的，而 AATIP 有自己的资金来源。” —— 杰里米·科贝尔 - “当他们试图锁定它时，它主动干扰了雷达，使其几乎毫无用处，而查德反应很敏捷，立即切换过去并抓拍到了那段视频。” —— 大卫·弗拉沃 --- ### [01:47:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ&t=6455s) 亲历者与键盘专家的差异，以及总统触碰机密的无力感 听到如此不可思议的第一手驾驶舱细节，罗根不由得感慨，哪怕弗拉沃描述得极其生动逼真，听者在脑海中不断勾勒画面，也依然恨不得能亲眼看到这一幕。弗拉沃随即分享了一段有趣的社交经历：一位在 UFO 研究圈内相当有声望的知名学者前来找弗拉沃攀谈。弗拉沃坦言自己并非什么“UFO 圈内人”，对方一听便搬出一大堆所谓的经典目击历史事件考问弗拉沃，接连报了三个事件名称问他是否知晓，弗拉沃全都直白回答“不知道”。那位学者便露出了些许鄙夷的神情说：“看来你根本不是混 UFO 圈的。”弗拉沃当场回敬道：“我不是，但我亲身追逐过这玩意儿，你有过吗？”对方哑口无言，弗拉沃顺势补刀：“我才是专家，你不是。”罗根大笑并附和道，这就像那些满脑子都是棒球技术统计数据、却一辈子都没亲自上场挥过球棒的人一样，真正的专家必须去前线摸爬滚打。 科贝尔也对罗根表示赞同，自己自接触拉扎尔以来就对那种反重力推进系统极其着迷，如果能亲眼见证一次，哪怕付出极大代价也心甘情愿。罗根开玩笑称，自己甚至想过为了查明真相去竞选美国总统，一旦当选入驻白宫，第一件事就是要求看 UFO 绝密档案，看完之后立刻宣布“老子不干了，你们自己玩去吧”。 科贝尔则指出，历任美国总统其实也做过类似的努力，但大多碰壁而归： 1. **比尔·克林顿（Bill Clinton）**：上任伊始便委派司法部副部长韦伯斯特·哈贝尔（Webster Hubbell）去彻底查明两件事——究竟是谁刺杀了肯尼迪，以及外星人与 UFO 的所有绝密档案。然而克林顿最终被拒绝调阅这些机密，事后克林顿曾公开表示，这已经不是他提出要求后第一次被撒谎或被剥夺知情权了。 2. **吉米·卡特（Jimmy Carter）**：在竞选总统前不仅声称自己曾亲眼见过 UFO，还对选民公开许诺当选后必定查个水落石出并公之于众；然而当卡特真正入主白宫、接受了国家安全简报之后，从此对该话题讳莫如深，再也没有对外公开提及过任何调查结果。 科贝尔根据自己掌握的情报总结道，UFO 核心信息的隔离密级与权限壁垒极高，甚至完全凌驾于传统民选政治体系之上，这导致即便是总统也难以穿透这层深墙。 - “我看着他，他说‘看来你不是个研究 UFO 的人’，我说‘不是，但我追过它，你追过吗？’他说没有，我说‘那我才是专家，你算什么。’” —— 大卫·弗拉沃 - “他上任时对韦伯斯特·哈贝尔说的第一件事是：‘我想知道两件事，是谁杀了肯尼迪，还有我想知道关于 UFO 的一切。’然而他被拒绝查阅，他后来表示‘在要求获取信息后被撒谎或被拒绝，这对我来说已经不是第一次了’，比尔·克林顿曾这样说过。” —— 杰里米·科贝尔 --- ### [01:49:43](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ&t=6583s) “突袭51区”事件始末与社交风暴的反思 在节目临近尾声时，科贝尔坚持要向罗根汇报不久前席卷全网的“突袭51区”（Storm Area 51）线下事件，并笑称这一切罗根要负很大一部分责任。事情的起因是科贝尔拍摄了纪录片《鲍勃·拉扎尔：51区与飞碟》（Bob Lazar: Area 51 & Flying Saucers），随后与拉扎尔一同做客《乔·罗根体验》，这期节目在全球范围内引发了巨大轰动。一名年轻人看完播客后，在 Facebook 上随手创建了一个“突袭51区，他们拦不住我们所有人”的病毒式活动页面，结果数以百万计的网民确认参与。 面对可能失控的局面，科贝尔试图联系并协助那个组织者。51区周边的雷切尔小镇（Rachel, Nevada）全镇仅有 52 名常住居民和一家汽车旅馆，极度抗拒数百万网民冲垮他们平静的生活与基础设施。最终，科贝尔在距离雷切尔约 50 英里外的海科（Hiko）参与协调了一个集会活动，以分流人群并确保安全。主流媒体事后报道称“仅有 150 名好事者到场”，科贝尔直斥这是彻头彻尾的谎言，媒体统计的仅仅是半夜试图靠近 51 区警戒铁丝网栅栏的极少数人；事实上在海科的活动现场，有超过 3000 人和平聚集在沙漠中。包括喜剧演员戴夫·弗利（Dave Foley）、知名 DJ 保罗·奥肯福德（Paul Oakenfold）以及调查记者乔治·纳普（George Knapp）均登台演讲或演出，现场气氛友好、秩序井然，甚至还推出了外星人主题的百威啤酒。 ```mermaid flowchart LR accTitle: 突袭51区网络热潮与线下落地分流流程 accDescr: 展现从播客内容爆发到 Facebook 病毒式活动，最终分流至海科线下和平集会的全过程 subgraph MediaImpact["传播引爆点"] M1["拉扎尔与科贝尔<br>做客 JRE 播客"] --> M2["网民创建 Facebook 页面<br>'Storm Area 51'"] M2 --> M3["全网数百万网民关注<br>与潜在聚集风险"] end subgraph ActionPlan["线下分流与执行"] M3 --> A1["雷切尔小镇拒绝承载<br>(仅52位常住居民)"] M3 --> A2["科贝尔协调转向海科 (Hiko)<br>设立安全演讲舞台与营地"] end subgraph FinalOutcome["实际结果"] A1 --> R1["约 150 人在 51 区军事大门聚集观察"] A2 --> R2["超过 3000 人在海科进行和平集会与科普交流"] end ``` 弗拉沃作为有着严谨纪律的职业军人，对所谓冲撞军事禁区的行为完全无法苟同，他坦率表示：“我是军人出身，不是反政府暴民；冲撞军事基地就像翻越白宫围栏一样，是世界上最愚蠢的主意。”罗根同样质疑数千人挤在沙漠里到底能产生什么实质价值。科贝尔则辩护称，这次线下事件的核心价值不在于闯入禁区，而在于它体现了普通公众对打破技术与信息垄断的强烈好奇心。这种跨阶层的广泛关注，能给推动不明飞行物与非反冲推进系统信息解密的群体提供更强大的社会声量。 节目最后，罗根坦言自己对于线下狂欢并不感冒，但他极其看重与像弗拉沃这样具备专业航空背景、诚实可靠的军方第一手亲历者的对话，因为这排除了哗众取宠的虚构与谎言。罗根同时向科贝尔表达了感谢，称正是科贝尔制作的鲍勃·拉扎尔纪录片，才彻底扭转了他对整个 UFO 议题的固有偏见与怀疑，随后三人握手道别结束了本期对谈。 - “从社会学和流行文化的角度来看，那一天发生的事情意义重大，我不希望任何人忽视它：一个孩子看了你的播客，看了那部电影，在 Facebook 上创建了这个‘突袭51区’页面……媒体完全对你们撒了谎，他们说只有 150 个人去了，那是彻头彻尾的捏造，我有录像可以证明这一点，我们在海科组织了活动，临时聚集了超过 3000 人。” —— 杰里米·科贝尔 - “我是个军人，不是反政府的人，这种行为就像去翻白宫的栅栏，我说‘你们脑子进水了吗？这是全世界最蠢的主意’。” —— 大卫·弗拉沃 - “我不知道人们在现实中聚集起来到底能带来什么益处，但我确实认为这种讨论带来了极大的价值，而且我真的认为，能够听到像你这样的人讲述亲身故事才是最有价值的，因为对我来说唯一重要的事情，就是我必须确定告诉我故事的人不是满嘴胡话。” —— 乔·罗根 ## Notable quotes > [26:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ&t=1605s) 隐形并不是隐形不可见，它只是一种让雷达更难发现你的技术。 — David Fravor > [14:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ&t=841s) 严格来说，电磁干扰在交战规则中属于挑衅性的战争行为。 — David Fravor > [01:19:56](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ&t=4796s) 如果只有我们存在，面对我所仰望的一切，那将是一个相当悲凉、相当孤独的宇宙。 — David Fravor > [01:15:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ&t=4530s) 我们有一种倾向，如果我们不知道它是什么，只要去忽视它，它就会自动消失。 — David Fravor ## Mentioned David Fravor, Jeremy Corbell, Joe Rogan, Chad Underwood, Luis Elizondo, Bob Lazar, George Knapp, Jacques Vallée, Christopher Mellon, Harry Reid, Alex Dietrich, Steve Justus, Elon Musk, Christopher Columbus, J. Allen Hynek, USS Princeton (CG-59), USS Constellation (CV-64), VFA-41, VMFA-323, F/A-18 Hornet, F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, A-6 Intruder, F-22 Raptor, SR-71 Blackbird, CH-53, E-2 Hawkeye, ATFLIR, AN/SPY-1, AESA Radar, CATM-9, AATIP, AAWSAP, Project Blue Book, Lockheed Martin Skunk Works, The New York Times, Area 51, Site-4 (S-4), Skinwalker Ranch, Storm Area 51 ## Video description Commander David Fravor is a retired US Navy pilot, who has a close encounter in 2004 with the so-called Tic Tac UFO, and Jeremy Corbell is a contemporary artist and documentary filmmaker. [Source](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ)

[26:45] David Fravor: 隐形并不是隐形不可见，它只是一种让雷达更难发现你的技术。 [14:01] David Fravor: 严格来说，电磁干扰在交战规则中属于挑衅性的战争行为。 [79:56] David Fravor: 如果只有我们存在，面对我所仰望的一切，那将是一个相当悲凉、相当孤独的宇宙。 [75:30] David Fravor: 我们有一种倾向，如果我们不知道它是什么，只要去忽视它，它就会自动消失。

[13:15] Cmdr. David Fravor: Technically jamming is an act of war. [69:54] Jeremy Corbell: Somebody has a non-reactionary field propulsion system. Now, are they aliens or some subset of humans? You know, somebody has them, and they're flying through our airspace with impunity. [73:14] Joe Rogan: there's a lot of people that brand themselves as skeptics and I think it's a lazy way to look at things, I really do, because I think you're just looking for the holes in things without looking at it objectively.

[0:01] and here we go [0:04] first of all gentlemen thanks for being [0:06] here Jeremy thanks for coming back again [0:08] thanks Jeff and thanks to you sir it's [0:12] very excited to be here very exciting [0:13] for me to be here to be able to talk to [0:15] you about your story [0:16] thank you I'm glad to be here David tell [0:20] everybody who you are and tell everybody [0:22] your background please okay and my name [0:24] is David forever [0:26] I served 24 years in the military [0:28] enlisted marine for a couple years [0:30] they sent me to Naval Academy then I [0:32] flew for 18 years for the Navy had [0:36] literally flew a-sixes Hornets and then [0:39] super hornets had every qualification [0:41] you could get in the airplane everything [0:43] even the stuff they're not doing anymore [0:45] so I had nvg high/low went to Top Gun [0:47] and at the time of the incident we're [0:50] going to talk about I was a commanding [0:52] officer of VF a41 the black aces [0:54] um I've gone through a gurney with this [0:59] whole UFO stuff from being a full-on [1:01] true believer to being incredibly [1:03] skeptical to trying to be open-minded to [1:06] being more of a believer now than I [1:09] think I've ever been before [1:10] and one of the things that I've always [1:12] said is the people that I believe that [1:15] there's a lot of loony people out there [1:17] but the people that I put my trust in [1:18] are high-level military people like [1:20] yourself so when I hear someone like you [1:23] who has a story that defies logic or [1:27] defies conventional understanding of how [1:29] aircrafts work that's when that's when I [1:33] sit back and I go okay this this is a [1:36] different thing because you know there's [1:39] always people that are telling you [1:40] they're psychic or they can you know [1:42] they sense things or they're in [1:43] communication with Bigfoot there's [1:45] always loony people out there but when [1:48] someone is in the military someone who's [1:49] trained to fly these in Krabi how [1:52] expensive for those jets when we haven't [1:55] met about seventy million dollars a [1:56] piece yeah they don't give those two [1:57] morons typically not some people in my [2:01] family would probably argue that point [2:03] but a better lucky than good it just [2:05] seems to me that this is for rational [2:09] people that want to look at this whole [2:12] UFO [2:13] objectively you're the type of person [2:16] that I want to talk to so I was very [2:18] excited to have you in here so what year [2:22] was your incident and you have a very [2:24] very famous incident that's krob [2:25] corroborated by actual evidence which is [2:28] one of the rare ones what year was it [2:30] and where did it take place [2:32] so as 2004 November 14th of the it's [2:37] really if you draw San Diego to Ensenada [2:40] Mexico or about 60 miles off the coast [2:42] in between the two we're doing work ups [2:44] so when we get ready to deploy this was [2:47] for the 2005 deployment we were going at [2:50] sea for November and December of 2004 so [2:53] we had been out I'd just taken over the [2:54] squadron mid-october so I'd been the CEO [2:56] for a month so we go out and we're [2:59] putting the Battle Group pieces together [3:01] so it's not just the the Air Wing but we [3:03] were you know we're on the carrier we've [3:05] got the cruiser we've got all support [3:07] ships out there and we're gonna [3:08] integrate all the defenses and train as [3:10] one unit so the exercise we're going to [3:13] do is an air defense exercise where [3:15] there's good guys bad guys they're all [3:17] from internal from the Air Wing so two [3:19] bad guys today are gonna be the Marines [3:21] VM fat32 the Red Devils so they're gonna [3:24] launch and they're gonna go about [3:25] hundred miles south of the ship and [3:27] we're the good guys and it's we called a [3:28] 2v2 so it's two of us against two of [3:30] them we're going to work with the USS [3:32] Princeton which is going to be the [3:34] controller and they're going to control [3:36] the blue forces and then the red guys [3:38] are going to give us a presentation that [3:39] you know they're going to try and [3:40] intercept so we can stop them from [3:42] getting up towards the carrier so that's [3:43] kind of the training set that we're all [3:44] good so the Marines take off first and [3:47] they start heading to the South now we [3:49] have no idea that for two weeks this is [3:51] the two weeks we've been at sea they've [3:53] been tracking these things coming out of [3:54] the sky and when I talked to the Prince [3:56] controller he's like up to about a dozen [3:57] of them they would come down from above [3:59] 80,000 feet they drop down to about [4:02] 20,000 feet and hang out and then it [4:04] goes straight back up after about three [4:05] or four hours so when you say they've [4:07] been tracking them who specifically this [4:08] is the USS the Princeton is tracking [4:10] them they saw him on the Nimitz radar [4:12] and the e2 could see them so because [4:15] they're out there you know that radar is [4:16] on all the time [4:17] and the spy-1 system on an Aegis Cruiser [4:20] is you know the state of ours probably [4:21] was one of the most sophisticated [4:22] systems in the world so typically when [4:25] something like this happens and [4:27] some unexplained phenomenon what do they [4:29] do in this case that you know if it was [4:32] if we were in a threat environment they [4:34] would tell us but they're off the coast [4:35] of San Diego it doesn't come to the air [4:37] wing so we have no idea that these [4:38] things are out there at all so they [4:40] observe these things and they never [4:42] bother telling any of you guys that's [4:44] correct so they just knew that these [4:46] things had been visiting this area but [4:49] they just allowed this training exercise [4:50] to take place anyway [4:52] yeah talking to him the previous for the [4:54] two weeks they would show up but it was [4:56] when we weren't flying [4:57] so the typical carrier schedule is you [4:59] know for us it was about noon to [5:00] midnight it's a 12-hour day there's [5:03] reasons for that you can go a lot longer [5:04] they can but for training we just do the [5:06] 12-hour day thing and it's cyclic ops so [5:09] you got guys taking off and landing [5:10] periodically so we were on one of the [5:12] first goes you know it's you know noon [5:15] one o'clock somewhere on there and we [5:16] take off the Marines take off first and [5:18] my buddy cheeks who's the CEO of the [5:20] marine squadron was one he was leading [5:22] the red air they had when he launched [5:24] off the carrier first they called him up [5:25] and said hey what do you got on board [5:26] well the the small the original legacy [5:28] f-18s don't have as much gas as the [5:30] super hornets super hornets about thirty [5:31] percent bigger so they start talking to [5:33] him about fuel and based on how long [5:35] we're gonna be airborne and everything [5:36] else they go hey why don't you just go [5:38] ahead and proceed to your your cap point [5:39] and because we had just taken off and [5:42] that's when the controller had come up [5:43] and said hey yeah I forget our cost and [5:45] spread like dealers usually what we went [5:47] so it'd be like dealer one one this is [5:50] Princeton control what do you got you [5:52] know say your loadout kind of chuckled [5:55] he said I said I got a Kadim nine which [5:57] is a it's a basically of just a blue [6:00] metal tube with a seeker head for a name [6:02] 9ir missile it's a training it doesn't [6:04] come off the airplane you can beat it [6:05] with a sledgehammer that's the only way [6:06] you're gonna get it off or you got to [6:07] unlock the lugs with a key so I'm like [6:10] kind of chuckling because well hey we're [6:11] gonna cancel the training so we're like [6:13] okay he says we got real-world vector [6:16] and they're gonna send us out to the [6:17] west so picture if it's you know if you [6:21] got a clock the Nimitz is in the middle [6:23] we're a little bit south of that about [6:25] forty miles south and then the Marines [6:27] are about a hundred miles south of the [6:28] ship about sixty miles between the two [6:30] of us so as this is all happened in my [6:33] wingman is joining up all right and [6:35] these are f-18s so there's two people in [6:36] each jet so it's me and my WIZO which is [6:39] weapon systems operator and i've got [6:40] the other pilot and the weapon systems [6:42] operator any other jet so they tell us [6:44] all this hey we're gonna real world [6:46] vector and they send us out to seven [6:47] zero about sixty miles away from where [6:49] we're going so now we're going out even [6:50] further out to sea we have no idea what [6:53] we're intercepting and this is when the [6:54] controller starts talking to us he says [6:56] hey sir we've seen these objects they've [6:59] been for two weeks they've been coming [7:01] down and he's given us the whole story [7:02] says we need you to go investigate we [7:04] want to know what these are but they're [7:06] asking you to investigate in a jet [7:08] that's unarmed that's correct okay yeah [7:10] we have no there's reasons for that that [7:12] we don't fly we typically don't fly with [7:14] live ordnance unless we're actually [7:15] going into like a combat zone or we're [7:18] on a training range and we're gonna [7:19] shoot something and the reason is you [7:20] can go through history of the Navy or [7:22] Air Force if you put live missiles on [7:24] airplanes and then you start doing [7:26] training where you're squeezing the [7:27] trigger someone always messes the switch [7:28] ology up and someone gets shot down it's [7:30] happened multiple times so we don't do [7:33] it you know there's times that we do but [7:35] it's rare so we start flying out to the [7:38] west now I want you to think because the [7:39] other pilot has a you know when you talk [7:41] to it's good south it was a female when [7:44] you talk to her it's she hears the kind [7:47] of goes through the mindset of hey we're [7:50] off the coast of Mexico real world [7:52] vector we have no idea we're going to [7:53] look at probably drug runner cuz you get [7:56] the drum runners coming up the coast so [7:58] we're like okay so we drive out and [8:00] they're calling down ranges so they're [8:02] telling us hey it's two-seven-zero at 30 [8:04] miles at 20,000 feet and then it's you [8:07] know you just count down the ranges and [8:08] we're talking back and forth the whole [8:09] time so they got to a point where they [8:12] say hey merge plot which means radars [8:16] have resolution cells [8:17] you know range and asmath of what the [8:19] radar can actually see once you're [8:20] inside that box you can't tell the [8:23] difference between me and the object I'm [8:26] going in will just become one big blob [8:28] mmm so they call merge plot and so the [8:31] other jet is on my left-hand side and [8:34] we're gonna and I'm going to go to a [8:35] clock code to make it simple so the [8:38] object we're going to end up looking for [8:39] is then right in the middle of the clock [8:40] and we are at the six o'clock position [8:42] and my wingman is off to my left side so [8:44] it's she's further down with her widow [8:47] so as we're looking around we we look to [8:50] the right and there's a it was yesterday [8:53] there's a perfect [8:54] example out here that water is perfectly [8:56] calm no Whitecaps I mean it's literally [8:58] a perfect San Diego California day and [9:02] we see white water it's something like [9:04] if you see a seamount you know rock [9:05] underwater when you're standing on the [9:06] shore and the waves are breaking over [9:08] and you're like what is that it's [9:09] usually because there's a rock under the [9:10] water so it looks like that but it's [9:12] about the size of a 737 it actually kind [9:15] of has a shape of like a cross and it's [9:17] pointing to the east so you've got the [9:18] long part going east-west and you got a [9:20] couple of things going north and south [9:22] so as we're looking at it cuz that kind [9:24] of draws our eyes we're like oh that's [9:25] kind of odd we look down and whiz oh and [9:28] the other airplane comes up and says hey [9:30] skipper do you and that's about what he [9:33] gets out of his mouth and I'm kind of [9:34] looking at the same thing I go dude you [9:36] see that what is that thing and what we [9:38] see is this white tic-tac looking object [9:40] just above the surface of the water [9:43] pointing north-south and it's going [9:45] north south east west it's just [9:46] radically moving forward back left right [9:48] at will and it's moving around the [9:51] disturbance the white water that we see [9:53] how big is this thing over time it's [9:56] about 40 feet long and the way I asked [9:58] to mate that is I mean I got a lot of [9:59] time fighting other airplanes so it's [10:00] about lot size of a Hornet fuselage so [10:02] that's why you say forty feet this [10:04] thing's just going left so the first [10:05] thing you see when you look down you go [10:07] and this is with our eyes it's not [10:09] sensors right so we're looking down at [10:11] this thing and first thing you think is [10:12] helicopter right there are the [10:14] helicopters typically stay below 200 [10:16] feet when we're out there and they're [10:17] just driving around we're pretty far [10:18] away from the ship for a helicopter for [10:20] one of ours so what is it so the first [10:22] thing you look for is rotor wash you [10:23] know if you've watched any TV show that [10:25] starts kicking the water up and you can [10:26] see that it's really easy to see from [10:28] the air so we're like no rotor wash [10:30] matter of fact don't see any rotors [10:33] don't see any tail rotor don't see any [10:35] you know the main rotors or like that's [10:37] kind of weird so as we're driving around [10:39] we're looking at this thing we get to [10:41] about the nine o'clock position how far [10:43] away are you from this thing I'm at [10:44] 20,000 feet and it's right down on the [10:45] surface - right off our right side so [10:47] I'm probably maybe a couple miles [10:49] lateral and 20,000 feet and we're just [10:52] watching it move around and so it's very [10:54] small in your eyes um not overly smarmy [10:57] and airplane down that low it's 40 feet [11:00] it was pretty clear so I'm like okay so [11:04] I said I'm gonna go check it out that's [11:06] what we're trained to do the other pilot [11:07] says hey I'm the [11:08] stay up here and I'm like that's perfect [11:10] so now we'll get some separation we'll [11:12] get it from different views and the [11:13] other airplane will act kind of a God's [11:15] eye view everything that's going on as I [11:16] go down and check this thing out [11:17] so I start driving around and it's still [11:19] doing its Ford back left right it's [11:21] still pointing north south we get to [11:24] about the 12 o'clock position I'm just [11:25] in a nice easy descent a reason you know [11:27] because I've been asked how can you go [11:28] more aggressive you can but when you're [11:31] out over water the water looks the same [11:32] at 20,000 feet it does it 2,000 feet you [11:35] don't you know yeah so you can easily [11:37] put yourself in a non recoverable [11:38] position if you're not paying attention [11:40] and you go into the water so I got this [11:42] nice you just send I get to about 12 [11:44] o'clock and as I'm coming down you know [11:45] I could guess probably about you know [11:48] 18,000 feet now a couple thousand feet [11:50] below the other airplane the tic-tac [11:52] just kind of rapidly goes and turns so [11:55] now it's kind of point east-west and now [11:56] it mirrors us so it's above the surface [11:59] or up high we're coming down it starts [12:01] coming up well this is getting [12:03] interesting [12:04] so we kind of drive all the way around a [12:06] circle I'm descending it's coming up and [12:08] I get over to about the eight o'clock [12:09] position of the on a clock and it's over [12:12] at about the two o'clock position [12:13] well the quickest way as we know as kids [12:15] to get someone you know you can keep [12:17] going around the circle nothing's going [12:18] to happen you cut across the circle some [12:21] about I don't know pry two to three [12:23] thousand feet above it and I just kind [12:25] of drop my nose aggressively and I cut [12:26] across the circle and it's coming this [12:28] way because I'm trying to fly to where [12:30] it's gonna be because I want to join on [12:32] it I want to see how close I can get to [12:33] right and as I'm pulling up it's kind of [12:36] starting to cross my nose and it starts [12:38] to accelerate and within about less than [12:40] a second as I start to pull nose onto it [12:43] and it crosses right in front of me it [12:44] just goes poof and it's gone so I call [12:47] the other airplane I said hey you guys [12:50] you guys see that thing and they're like [12:51] sure it's gone we don't see it at all so [12:55] I'm like okay that's kind of weird so we [12:58] don't see it we're looking at the same [13:00] time I say hey let's turn around and [13:02] let's go back to see what was in the [13:03] water you know there's was there [13:05] something there so we turn around right [13:06] there we haven't gone anywhere it's gone [13:09] waters perfectly there's no white water [13:11] nothing it's just blue like okay so we [13:15] turned back around now we're heading [13:16] back out towards the east and I tell the [13:18] controller I said well I said you know [13:21] first said I'm kind of weirded out and I [13:24] told my my backseater that we start [13:26] heading back and the controller on the [13:28] Princeton comes at me says sir you're [13:30] not going to believe this but that thing [13:31] is back at your cat point that was our [13:32] original point where we were gonna hold [13:34] 40 miles south of the ship so this thing [13:36] is went from wherever we were at - it's [13:39] kind of about 60 miles in you know maybe [13:43] 30 40 seconds it's already over there [13:44] and it just and they didn't track it it [13:47] just appeared he just shows back up on [13:49] their radar and they go it's here so [13:51] we're like okay so we fly back we don't [13:55] see it we don't see it on our radar we [13:57] don't see it on any of our sensors we do [13:59] like two runs and we come back to the [14:01] ship and land so as we're in our it's we [14:04] call it the PR shop we're taking off our [14:05] flight gear one of my crews is getting [14:07] ready to go out and I think they were [14:08] going to be on a tanker mission but they [14:10] had a targeting pod on board so they [14:13] launched off and we're tell him about [14:15] this before and I in the back seat er [14:18] Chad says he's really determined he's [14:21] gonna find this thing so he tells the [14:23] pilot hey we're gonna find this thing so [14:25] turns out driving around and in the back [14:27] seat of a Super Hornet [14:28] there's no stick but there's side stick [14:30] controllers and they're to control the [14:33] sensors because that's what the weapons [14:34] systems guys do and they can change [14:36] displays really fast by just hitting a [14:38] button and will flip from the radar to [14:39] the targeting pod and the way the system [14:42] actually works is when you see something [14:44] on the radar and you designate it as [14:45] your primary target all the other [14:47] sensors will look at that point so it's [14:50] everything's kind of synced together so [14:52] he picks up a hit on his radar and he [14:54] goes to lock it up because I watched all [14:56] the tapes he goes to lock it up and [14:58] immediately the radar can tell it gets [15:00] signals back that it's being jammed so [15:03] and technically jamming is an act of war [15:05] it starts jamming the radar goes into a [15:07] jam extrapolate a bunch of stuff happens [15:09] on the scope well he's smart enough to [15:11] castle to his targeting pod and he takes [15:14] a passive track and that's the video [15:15] that you see of the tic-tac where it's [15:17] just sitting in the middle screen real [15:18] quiet so he does that and he and he goes [15:21] through if you watch the video if we had [15:23] and I'd go through it with you but they [15:24] go through all the different modes so he [15:26] goes it's an IR and an EO EO as TV it's [15:28] black and white TV camera we do we can [15:30] get the video right online yes let's get [15:33] the video Jimmy where would you [15:36] can't show it to anybody we can't we [15:38] can't show it on YouTube but you can see [15:40] it and people will be able to go to it [15:43] you know what we'll do [15:44] go to the video and we'll tell people [15:46] when we're starting and we'll tell [15:48] people with the title of the video that [15:49] you get to is and they can sync it up [15:51] themselves if they're watching it it's [15:55] publicly owned it's you know American [15:56] government right so it is actually [15:58] something in the public domain so you [16:00] think we could play it on YouTube and [16:01] not get cold yeah a hundred percent you [16:03] think so Jamie it's a government those [16:05] things I would say yes we should be able [16:08] to but sometimes those things get messy [16:10] so let's take a genius okay let's take a [16:12] chance with this one I know if you go if [16:14] you're on a New York Times article [16:15] there's a link to it it's had it gone [16:17] really YouTube is crazy with copyright [16:20] stuff and we've always been like two [16:22] steps away from getting pulled off [16:24] YouTube completely it's a real disaster [16:26] it's understand from their perspective [16:29] there's a lot of legal issues they have [16:31] to deal with but I have it on a private [16:33] server I could maybe send Jamie the [16:35] issue I'd believe though is the actual [16:37] copyright of the video itself oh it's [16:39] just it's um Pentagon Pentagon released [16:40] Public Enemy and the Pentagon's can come [16:42] after us I don't think so either you [16:46] find it I want to find a good version of [16:49] the video that doesn't have somebody [16:50] Jeremy I'm watermark version please look [16:53] it up the sons of Jeremy over to us [16:56] I have to figure out how to send it to [16:58] you right here give me in a second do [16:59] you have air drop what did you hear drop [17:02] yeah but I got it on a bit pay I got it [17:04] on a page a private page they can send [17:06] Jamie oh yeah okay okay Jeff Jamie's uh [17:08] info no okay I'll figure it out Lee says [17:13] to me and I'll send to him okay that's [17:15] pretty easy sorry to disrupt the [17:18] momentum no but I think this it's [17:21] probably important to be able to have [17:23] this the the video itself so you could [17:26] just talk about it and we're about to [17:32] yank it up here okay Jamie wrote it down [17:34] for you there you go give me a second to [17:36] get it okay and for people don't know [17:38] Jeremy also produced bob lazar area 51 [17:43] in flying saucers and he was in here [17:45] when we had bob lazar in talked about [17:48] Bob's experience [17:49] and Jesus if that wasn't a game-changer [17:52] for me and for a lot of other people [17:55] this is a subject that it's so easy to [17:57] mock you know this is why I think it's [17:59] so important that we talk to people like [18:02] you because like I said just your [18:05] average everyday UFO crackpot they [18:08] believe everything in anything have you [18:10] did you have you ever had any UFO [18:13] experiences before this know the irony [18:16] and I tell this story my mother in law [18:19] shall be listening she she literally [18:21] every time I would go home she would ask [18:23] me hey did you see UFO do you see if you [18:25] haven't I'd be like no when I first [18:26] started dating my wife she was a big [18:28] like National Enquirer she had all the [18:30] you know supermarket tabloids and I [18:32] would always just feed her crap for it [18:34] so I this happens and you know and I'm I [18:37] never say a word so my friends all knew [18:40] it was a great story over beers cuz they [18:41] go hey what's the coolest thing you ever [18:42] saw flying I go I chased a UFO and they [18:44] go seriously and I tell them the store [18:46] and they're like dude I go yeah so I go [18:50] home and and I got got asked by Lou [18:52] Elizondo to do the New York Times [18:53] article which as like anything else I [18:56] always say no like it took a bunch of [18:58] times to get me on your show Jeremy kept [19:00] asking asking asking and it was Thank [19:01] You Jeremy Mike yeah yeah I thank my [19:03] contractor's wife angel who we were to [19:06] party drinking and she goes we got to do [19:07] Rogan I go what she goes [19:08] it's the biggest podcast on the planet [19:10] she goes you got to do it and I go [19:11] alright I'm gonna do it just for you I [19:13] want to do this show a shout-out to [19:14] angel yeah from New Hampshire so so my [19:19] mother-in-law we're sitting there and I [19:20] know the New York Times article is gonna [19:22] come out and as I was at Thanksgiving in [19:25] 20 when there were a come on seventeen [19:27] so it's Thanksgiving in 2017 I never [19:29] wanted to kind of left the house that's [19:31] just my wife and my in-laws a couple I [19:33] was sitting in the kitchen and I said [19:34] hey I got to tell you guys this they [19:35] said what I said there's gonna be this [19:36] article comes out in the New York Times [19:38] and I'm in it and they're like yeah go [19:40] well I chased a UFO my mother-in-law is [19:43] like haha she looks at my father-in-law [19:46] he's rolling his eyes looking at me like [19:47] are you serious and I go yeah yeah and [19:49] and she's like you never told us I got [19:52] never really told anyone I mean my wife [19:53] and kids knew the event happened but [19:55] they didn't have all the details cuz [19:56] there's just one of those things we just [19:57] didn't I just didn't get into is it [19:59] classified [20:00] no was it at any point in time no [20:02] a lot of rumors out there that I was [20:04] classified and the ship got locked down [20:06] no it wasn't it was we were never men in [20:10] suits did not show up no one told us not [20:13] to talk about it and this is because [20:14] there's a lot of other people saying [20:16] other things and I said this look at it [20:18] that here's the context so in the battle [20:20] group you've got the Admiral [20:23] you got the captain of the ship the [20:24] captain of the Princeton and then you've [20:26] got the other COS so in position wise [20:29] I'm probably as a CEO of a squadron in [20:32] the top 20 out of 6,000 and no one came [20:36] to talk to me no one came to take my [20:39] tapes no one showed up in a suit no one [20:41] told me not to talk no one talked to any [20:42] of my aircrew that were involved in this [20:44] all there's six people total involved [20:46] the two they shot the video on the four [20:47] of us that looked at it for five minutes [20:48] with our eyes knowing nothing it just [20:52] and I can get into how that you know [20:55] there's a report that that George Knapp [20:58] got released it's a I call it the [20:59] unofficial official report and I had met [21:03] someone and I'm like hey can you find [21:06] any I had this incident normally you [21:08] tell people this they look at you like [21:10] dude what are you smoking I'm like no no [21:13] I'm good I'm tested and they go and and [21:17] they said well let me see what I can do [21:19] and I had got a call I was working I was [21:22] doing some aerospace work and I had [21:24] gotten a call my cell phone from a guy [21:25] and he said hey I want to investigate [21:29] your incident and I go okay so he did he [21:33] investigated the incident and it was [21:35] very very thorough I mean if you've read [21:37] that it's about 10 pages long and he [21:39] yeah I mean he tracked down everybody he [21:41] tracked down all the people that were [21:42] the aircrew that were involved he talked [21:44] to he tracked down the Admiral he talked [21:47] you mean he it was a pretty thorough [21:48] report and I don't think anything of it [21:50] you know because you know the the people [21:53] who weren't it's out there so they want [21:54] to do FOIA but it was never released in [21:55] a FOIA request I actually had the Navy [21:57] call me I'd been out of the Navy for [21:59] like six years and what's explain to [22:01] people that means freedom moved [22:02] infrequently so I got called by a public [22:06] affairs person from the Navy and said [22:08] hey is this commander forever I said [22:10] yeah they said hey do you know of any [22:12] documentation on your UFO incident off [22:15] the Nimitz [22:16] and I said official and she said yeah I [22:19] said no because I knew the rapport [22:21] existed but to me it was an unofficial [22:22] because I didn't know who were when I [22:24] and I had a copy of it but because it [22:27] wasn't official well then years later I [22:29] find out that the guy who actually did [22:30] the report was part of the a tip team [22:32] and I was talking to Lou Elizondo who [22:34] runs that program and Lou showed me the [22:36] documentation of the original I think is [22:38] like 13 people that were part of a tip [22:39] and they were fully exempt and I'm like [22:41] well that's kind of well hey I know that [22:43] guy he's a guy that did the report which [22:45] is why it never ever came out no George [22:49] got his hands on how does something [22:50] Freedom of Information Act exempt [22:53] obviously DoD has the ability because [22:56] I'm a I'm not a conspiracy theory person [22:59] at all I mean I'll just tell you that [23:00] you know I think there's reasons that [23:02] the government doesn't tell the public [23:03] everything and I don't speak for the [23:05] government but I think there's a good [23:06] reason for that that not everything [23:08] needs to go out to the public but most [23:10] of it does and they just what they do is [23:12] I put a clause on hey for this program [23:13] or whatever we're doing which would been [23:15] an a-type program the work that they do [23:17] and what they find is not it's not [23:19] releasable through Freedom of [23:20] Information Act there's probably other [23:21] avenues to get that you know and then [23:23] you go well what really is freedom [23:24] information because I got into this [23:25] sauna I was talking to someone who's a [23:27] conspiracy theorist and they said well [23:28] so and so wrote and they're not getting [23:30] any information on your event I said so [23:32] what are they gonna do they're gonna [23:33] call up you're gonna put in your request [23:34] for for freedom information you go [23:36] here's what I want it goes to some poor [23:38] guy at the Pentagon who's like I have no [23:40] idea what this is and he searches around [23:41] he doesn't find anything he looks at his [23:43] bud and I gain all for you I go hey Joe [23:44] you got anything on the Nimitz incident [23:45] you go oh I go okay well I didn't find [23:48] anything I looked I did my due diligence [23:51] but I'm not gonna spend the next six [23:52] months of my life doing your research [23:54] project for you right so you get nothing [23:56] and then you assume the government's [23:57] covering up when they go that really [23:58] isn't they just you know the guys are [23:59] doing the research doesn't know where [24:01] it's had or nice access to it makes [24:02] sense um Jamie we have the video okay [24:06] here we go [24:07] now explain what what is what are we [24:09] seeing why we seeing it in this this [24:11] particular cat the don't [24:16] on the top left corner na R is narrow [24:19] field of view which is zoomed in IR at [24:24] the top middle it means it's an infrared [24:25] mode so instead of seeing color you're [24:28] seeing temperature variations [24:29] and these things are extremely sensitive [24:31] to in like tents of degrees they will [24:33] tell you the difference so it'll go from [24:35] black to white so in this case white is [24:37] hot so if you look down on the bottom [24:39] left corner it says WH T mm that's white [24:43] it means white is hot so the object that [24:44] you're looking at is hotter than the sky [24:46] around it but we also notice is there's [24:48] no plumes not if you're looking at an [24:50] airplane when you get closer you'll [24:51] actually see the exhaust coming out and [24:53] there will be a really glowing plume [24:54] that's important as we look at the video [24:55] and then most of the stuff on here you [24:58] really don't need to know what you can [24:59] look at is the bottom right corner it [25:01] says $19,990 tude and if you look up in [25:06] the little words or it says HD G and [25:08] then B alt B it's autopilot so it's on [25:11] altitude hold it's just flying for that [25:13] so you can go ahead and play the video [25:15] and so those two bars next to the white [25:20] object that's a that's a that's a [25:21] passive track so what he's done is he's [25:24] commanded the FLIR to track that so what [25:26] the system does is it uses its actually [25:28] tracking it can track pixels and it's [25:30] just basically blocked those hot pixels [25:32] those white pixels from the black ones [25:33] and you're gonna see now pause it real [25:36] quick so it over the top see it went to [25:38] a white screen with the black object [25:39] this is a black and white TV mode and [25:41] even look at the top says TV so narrow [25:44] in TV mode is actually you can get [25:46] closer than narrow and IR it's literally [25:48] narrow in IR is about medium and TV mode [25:51] so there's you can get closer with the [25:52] TV mode so as you look at it now in this [25:54] case you would actually start to see [25:57] stuff going on and even in TV mode [25:59] because you get exhaust you know the [26:00] black exhaust that comes out he'll [26:02] usually be able to see kind of some of [26:04] that coming out the back and you don't [26:05] see anything this thing's just sitting [26:06] there and if you look at the the top [26:08] where it says three right that's the pot [26:10] is looking three degrees right on the [26:11] nose of the airplane right so he's just [26:14] flying along the bottom numbers don't [26:15] worry those are time so it's 41 56 so go [26:19] ahead and hit play and what what he's [26:22] doing is he's going Chad's going through [26:24] all the different modes cuz he's like oh [26:26] I got it and he's gonna try and see the [26:27] best video you can get now there's [26:29] rumors that this video is like 10 [26:31] minutes long know what you're looking at [26:32] is the entire video now notice where it [26:34] says 99.9 mm-hmm so hit pause real quick [26:36] what that means is the why he's got the [26:38] pod the targeting pod because that's his [26:40] primary sensor right now the radar still [26:42] trying to look at this object [26:43] and trying to range it and the radar [26:45] can't get ranging on it so the object is [26:48] doing something to say I'm not giving [26:50] you back because it's just a Doppler [26:51] radar just like a police radar as a [26:53] Doppler it's trying to get arranging on [26:55] you and it can't do it so when it says [26:56] 99.9 the radar cannot see this object [26:59] right now mmm it's not allowing it to [27:01] get ranging and I think that's super [27:02] important Dave the way he explained it [27:04] to me [27:05] active jamming compared to passive [27:07] jamming this is a technology that is [27:09] actively jamming this system rather than [27:12] something like stealth aircraft which is [27:14] the shape and texture of the yeah it's [27:17] because I one thinks stealth is [27:19] invisible it's not it's it's just it's a [27:21] technology to to basically make it [27:24] harder for radars to see you you know [27:26] and that's the whole thing you know if [27:27] you look at you know airplanes that are [27:30] knows on are harder to see than [27:32] airplanes at the sides kind of like [27:33] think of a barn door if you're looking [27:36] at the whole barn door it's really easy [27:37] see if I turn the barn door sideways [27:38] works really thin it's gonna be a lot [27:40] harder for you to see it guys so that's [27:41] it that's the easiest most basic way to [27:43] look at this so keep going you can play [27:45] again [27:45] and you can look to the airplane is [27:47] still sitting at 20,000 feet it's doing [27:49] 250 knots he's gonna go through [27:51] different modes and try and lock it and [27:54] it's just kind of sitting in all of a [27:56] sudden as the video goes on I think it's [27:58] a minute and a half long see it's going [27:59] to try and reacquire it Rhys enters the [28:01] pod so it's it's slowly drifting to the [28:03] left the the Hornet is still going the [28:06] same heading it's just kind of hanging [28:08] out and they're just filming this thing [28:09] and I when they get close it's gonna [28:11] zing off the left-hand side when you see [28:14] it on a full because it's you know you [28:16] think digital you'd be able to get a [28:17] one-for-one copy I'm like you know when [28:19] you copy your album to a cassette you [28:20] know you lose a little quality well you [28:22] still do in digital world and they're [28:23] off it goes to the left and that's [28:25] pretty fast to leave that field of view [28:26] on the when we have big monitors that we [28:29] look at these when they come back so [28:30] we're looking at the original tapes so [28:31] they the end of that again please Jamie [28:34] so when it's taking off how fat when [28:37] when it just sort of like leaves the [28:39] field of view and takes off to the left [28:40] how fast is that going I would say [28:43] pretty fast it's an estimate if we had [28:45] ranging you know you could obviously [28:46] view the triangle and go hey because we [28:48] know how big the field of view is but [28:49] for something to leave the field of view [28:50] that fast with the pod just staring is [28:53] pretty fast I mean it just it's like out [28:55] of here like nothing that [28:57] we have no because we can't I don't care [29:00] what airplane is so let's just use the [29:02] f-22 Raptor that's probably one of the [29:04] it's probably the best airplane in the [29:05] world right now performance wise it [29:09] can't take off like that especially if [29:11] it's a hover I mean you're talking [29:13] something that's just sitting in space [29:14] in the wind and then it just all of a [29:16] sudden accelerates airplanes don't work [29:18] that way and it's not leaving any [29:19] exhaust plume no notice there's none and [29:21] when you go back to geography n even in [29:24] the IR you don't yes here's IR zoomed in [29:26] and there's no you would see a plume if [29:28] that was an airplane [29:28] it's creepy how it takes off yeah with [29:31] active jamming it's intelligently [29:33] controlled there's no rotors there's no [29:35] plumes there's no exhaust there's no [29:37] tail fin there's no tail number this [29:40] thing goes from a standstill takes off [29:43] it's a propulsion system we don't have [29:45] in our inventory and no other nation [29:47] does that's how it's understood by the [29:49] government now that that's say if the [29:53] fastest plane on earth was trying to do [29:57] that same maneuver this system would be [29:59] able to track it yeah well yeah we'd [30:02] stay with it [30:03] until it got to the limits of the pod [30:05] you know as far as looking to the left [30:06] but right and you know the radar would [30:08] see it I mean we get get close enough [30:11] you're gonna you know everything becomes [30:13] visible because you get burned through [30:15] with radar and how how radars actually [30:17] work this one is you know you tell me [30:23] but this was performance beyond I mean [30:27] it's like when we saw it disappear when [30:29] it flew in front of my nose I'm talking [30:30] something I'm within a half mile of it [30:32] looking at it and it gets in front of me [30:34] and just disappears [30:35] so take we'll just go to something that [30:37] everyone knows as fast let's just say [30:39] sr-71 that's doing Mach 3 [30:41] you know the visibilities fifty miles so [30:45] even at 35 miles a minute I'm gonna be [30:47] able to see this thing turn into a [30:48] little dot as it goes off into the [30:50] horizon for a probably a minute the [30:53] thing that we saw disappeared in a [30:55] second just gone and that's from two [30:57] different angles remember the other [30:58] airplanes 8,000 feet above me because we [31:00] we get close to at about 12,000 feet so [31:03] the other airplanes above me looking [31:04] down and when it disappeared I said you [31:06] guys see it they said no it's gone they [31:08] just literally was poof [31:10] now when you came back and what do you [31:15] do with this information do you report [31:18] it do you talk to people about it [31:20] so the typical process any time we fly [31:23] everything gets debrie so because it was [31:25] a two-seat airplane usually the junior [31:27] person then the jet goes down so I was [31:30] the boss so I wasn't going down there so [31:31] we have a thing called Civic c VI C [31:33] which is the carrier Intel Center so [31:36] they go down we always take our tapes [31:38] because we record stuff when we're [31:39] fighting they take it down and it's [31:41] really to exercise the system when we're [31:43] in training so that when we actually get [31:45] over to in this case we are going over [31:46] to the Persian Gulf you know anything [31:48] that we do comes in and gets debriefing [31:49] then it all gets sent off that's how you [31:50] get the CNN video and all that so they [31:54] go down and a debrief and I have to tell [31:55] hey we we chase this object we don't [31:57] know what it is you know and of course [32:00] everyone now is gonna make jokes because [32:02] we know we're gonna catch [ __ ] because [32:03] that's how the Navy works you know and I [32:05] told him I said I remember telling the [32:07] guy in my back seat I said dude you know [32:09] we're gonna catch maximum [ __ ] for this [32:11] and he goes yes sir I'll show you the [32:14] comics I have him on my phone we do the [32:16] airplane comes out so we know it's gonna [32:18] come down so he goes any day debrief [32:20] this both crews going in and of course [32:24] everyone at Intel thinks this is [32:25] hilarious so the flight the you know [32:29] Chad comes in with his tapes you know [32:30] and when he lands and there's the thing [32:33] yeah vfa 41 ha ha guys see any UFOs out [32:37] there and he pulls out that tape and [32:39] drops it on the counter he goes yeah [32:40] it's on here so they're like oh [ __ ] so [32:43] they copy it they play it and there's a [32:45] big it looks like a rack system they put [32:47] the eight mil in it gets copied to a [32:48] hard drive and then they they archive it [32:52] so you go okay so I got this video and [32:54] then you know the ship spreads you know [32:57] if you have a room around the ship 5,000 [33:00] people are gonna know about it within [33:01] probably thirty minutes I mean it [33:03] spreads that it's like a virus so the [33:05] whole ship now knows that we chased this [33:07] I guarantee the whole Princeton knew [33:08] this stuff was going on and it goes all [33:10] the way up the Admiral knows about it [33:12] the captain of the ship knew about it [33:13] and and then all the movies because we [33:16] have they play movies for us on the ship [33:18] and they run like a 12 hour loops of [33:20] course the movie selection is men and [33:21] black men and black [33:22] two signs Independence Day and and we [33:28] know we're gonna be on the airplane [33:29] comet because there's always a comic so [33:30] you do some stupid or like this then [33:33] you're gonna be on the comm I'll show [33:34] you the comics here a little bit oh [33:35] they're pretty funny but you know so [33:39] that went on for two days but you know [33:41] we're in the middle of work ups [33:42] I got a squadron to run so it's like you [33:44] know there was after about the first day [33:45] and a half early died down and then it [33:48] was there's always that closet people [33:49] that you don't think that it really like [33:50] UFO buffs and you know like we had one [33:53] on one like one of the Marines would [33:54] always come and eat sit down hey hey [33:55] skipper can I sit with you okay you want [33:57] to talk about the UFO he goes yeah I [33:59] just I can't get it out of my mind and [34:01] then we would just sit there and talk [34:02] about it you know and to me it was like [34:04] you know we're just saying you know my [34:07] entire now flying career is defined by [34:09] five minutes of chasing this white [34:10] tic-tac vice almost 4,000 hours you know [34:14] flying so now did you encounter anyone [34:16] else that had a similar experience I've [34:20] talked to the guys a couple of guys from [34:21] the East Coast event the gimbal video [34:23] mm-hmm [34:24] one of them I talked to you daily he's [34:27] pretty good friend of mine totally [34:29] different now keep in mind ours is 2004 [34:32] the gimbal video is 2015 [34:36] the funny part about the gimbal video [34:38] and the East Coast stuff that was going [34:40] on because that's off the vacate so off [34:43] the coast of the United States sir [34:44] they're called warning areas and all [34:45] they are is their if you look out of [34:47] aviation map they're these big areas [34:49] that are blocked off by blue and they [34:51] say like whiskey 291 or whiskey 243 and [34:54] is the gimbal video available in the [34:56] same way that that video is available [34:57] yes yeah okay so and I was talking to [35:03] him about it cuz I asked a buddy of mine [35:05] he was just retired he was the he led [35:08] two fighter wing on the East Coast night [35:09] called him up because we start finding [35:10] out that these things were so prevalent [35:13] out off the east coast the United States [35:14] and there's a couple of them so there's [35:15] the we're going to talk what they [35:17] started seeing originally was these [35:19] things and one of them almost hit the [35:21] airplane almost hit one of these things [35:22] but it looks like a cube inside of a [35:25] clear beach ball so they don't know if [35:27] it's actually like a surrounding or it's [35:28] you don't know if it's a force field and [35:30] you see kind of in the gimbal via video [35:32] it's got like an aura around it where [35:33] ours didn't I always laugh I go ours was [35:36] tic-tac these are not that means there's [35:38] different stuff out there that we don't [35:39] know but they had two airplanes flying [35:42] and we fly when we go out to to Train [35:44] we're usually we have a distance you [35:46] know we'll just say we're you know ma [35:47] mile apart as we're flying out so [35:50] they're flying out and they're you know [35:52] the airplanes are deployed we caught [35:53] combat spread and one of the airplanes [35:55] almost hits one these goes close down [35:57] like 50 feet down the side and almost [35:59] hits one of these floating cubes inside [36:02] of the beach ball and if someone goes [36:04] out like it's a it's a balloon it's not [36:06] a balloon I mean these things are [36:07] literally sitting still they're there no [36:10] effect from the winds so if you got 90 [36:12] knots of wind and they talk about it [36:13] these things are just sitting there so [36:16] 60 or 70 people at see it because the [36:18] radars the the newer radar in the super [36:21] hornets is extremely extremely capable [36:23] okay and at first when they started [36:26] seeing stuff they were like that's just [36:28] like maybe it's the radar just give me a [36:29] false target and that really doesn't [36:31] give false targets and then someone did [36:34] exactly what Chad did is they threw [36:36] their targeting flare out there and all [36:37] of a sudden you see a heat signature [36:38] there's a return there's obviously [36:40] something out where that blip is at what [36:43] is a targeting flare that's a we caught [36:46] the 80 flares it's an advanced targeting [36:47] flirts it's on the left side of the [36:49] airplane and it's launched it like a [36:51] flare no no it's a it's a FLIR [36:52] forward-looking infrared receiver so [36:54] it's when you see the bombs blowing up [36:56] on TV and it's that looks like a black [36:57] and white and you see it's like that's [36:59] the targeting pod okay it's got a laser [37:01] in it it's got an IR marker in it it's [37:03] it's a very capable system that syncs up [37:05] to this to the Hornet so everything kind [37:08] of marries oh so this is the go-fast now [37:09] this is go fast no it's the other one [37:12] it's the was like that what is that [37:14] that's called the go fast that looks [37:16] like a tic-tac and I was another one [37:17] taking off the East Coast but they [37:19] grabbed it and Mark that one it's going [37:21] it's screaming across the ocean at a [37:22] very high rate of speed and there's been [37:24] some debunkers that say well it's really [37:25] not going that fast it's just the way [37:27] the airplane is and how the mechanics of [37:29] the Potter work and when you talk to the [37:31] crew cuz it's actually I could ask my [37:34] bud I'm pretty sure it's the same back [37:36] cedar took both of these videos took the [37:39] go-fast video and took the gimbal video [37:41] and my buddy was on the flight with the [37:44] gimbal video but they these things that [37:46] I call my buddies I'm like hey how many [37:48] people are seeing these things I got [37:49] like [37:50] 60 or 70 60 or 60 or 70 people had seen [37:53] these things on radar and I said well [37:55] what do you do and they said well we put [37:56] out a note AM which is a notice to [37:58] Airmen that just says hey these things [38:00] are out there so just be careful because [38:02] we don't want you to hit one yeah and [38:05] it's kind of like our shego because you [38:08] would ask you know who do you tell well [38:09] everyone knows well what do you do and I [38:12] said well because it was all white and [38:13] it didn't have any markings on it and it [38:15] didn't have any wings and it didn't have [38:17] any rotors and it was just outperformed [38:19] anything that we have yeah I think if I [38:22] would have painted China or Russia on [38:23] the side is this the gimbal video yes [38:25] okay so it's the same pod in the [38:28] beginning Jamie what we're looking at [38:30] and when the crew finds it now what [38:33] you're not seeing you're seeing it [38:35] targeting when you hear them start [38:36] talking when you listen to the video [38:38] you'll hear the guy go dude look they're [38:41] all over look at the SA page so we have [38:43] a situation awareness page and whatever [38:45] the radar is getting returns on it'll [38:46] show up it's kind of like our God's eye [38:48] view in the airplane so the pod can only [38:51] look at one thing so he designates that [38:54] as his primary target so that's where [38:56] the pod is there the radar still seeing [38:58] everything else so what they're actually [39:00] seeing this video is what you're when [39:02] you see that the object that he's [39:03] tracking when I was talking to one of [39:06] the other pods he said there's actually [39:07] when you see the radar video there's [39:09] like a it almost looks like a formation [39:11] in front of them like five smaller ones [39:13] that are moving in front of it and then [39:15] they turn so like a formation these [39:17] things turns and starts going the other [39:18] way and then again while they're filming [39:20] the gimbal video and that's kind of the [39:22] comms when you hear it dude holy cow [39:23] look they're all over this is unreported [39:26] new information that he's actually [39:28] saying right now everybody knows this [39:30] video this is the one that they say [39:32] turns like the Lazar craft like [39:33] belly-first [39:34] however what he's telling you right now [39:37] is something that is not public yet he's [39:38] telling you that there was a V formation [39:40] of other objects that the public has yet [39:42] to see you're not going to you're not [39:44] going to the radar tape but I'm not [39:46] gonna there were more objects [39:48] surrounding this is what he's telling [39:49] you right now which is fascinating [39:50] because the world doesn't know that yet [39:52] just so you know I mean that's brand-new [39:55] that's never been reported by a New York [39:56] Times anybody okay [39:58] so you go ahead play [40:02] so the cool thing with this is that you [40:05] know when he goes into so he's an IR IR [40:07] mode right now you're still seeing no [40:09] plume he's looking 47 so they're [40:12] actually turning into it so it's [40:13] starting to pull it back towards the [40:14] nose see how the number at the top is [40:16] decreasing and it's against the wind now [40:19] he's in TV mode and this thing's gonna [40:21] just start to run you can kind of see [40:22] it's got that aura around it mm-hmm he [40:25] said they were saying that the the ones [40:27] with the squares inside that looked like [40:29] the beach ball were the same and this [40:31] thing is just hanging out so it's on the [40:34] airplanes on the left-hand turn and it's [40:36] so now it's right in front yeah it's [40:38] it's just rotating no this is how Lazare [40:41] described you know Lazar described that [40:48] that these things would lay flat and [40:52] then when they would travel they would [40:53] turn up on their side mhm and that's [40:56] that's how they maneuvered so this is [40:58] very similar eerily similar to the [41:02] propulsion system that Lazar talked [41:03] about and that's why this video we're [41:05] seeing it very differently now [41:07] especially with what we know about Lazar [41:10] but the idea is that it would fly [41:11] belly-first in high-speed mode so if [41:13] they have these are gravity propel this [41:16] is something that's known within the [41:17] government they're trying to back [41:18] engineer they're trying to understand it [41:20] we know there's a program currently that [41:22] they said is is gone however it is [41:24] currently active to study this these [41:27] things will turn belly first the saucer [41:30] type looking ones and then that's the [41:32] high speed mode because they focus of [41:34] allegedly you know these gravity wave [41:36] amplifiers look this thing turns [41:38] mechanically there again no typical form [41:43] of propulsion as an expert is telling [41:45] you this is not a glitch this is seen by [41:48] multiple radars multiple people [41:50] commander freighter was so close to it [41:51] this is something that is not [41:53] aerodynamic and it could move in ways [41:56] and fashions when he's underplaying it [41:57] when we first talked the idea of this [42:00] thing going up up up up up up it's [42:03] instantaneous acceleration back and [42:05] forth there's no slowing down no turning [42:06] like a ping-pong ball he said to me our [42:08] first talk ping-pong ball in a in a [42:10] glass nothing moves like that with [42:13] traditional reactionary propulsion [42:15] somebody has technology that we don't [42:18] have in our inventory at all [42:21] so this is counter-intuitive the way it [42:23] goes from being aerodynamic to being uh [42:26] narrow dynamic when it goes sideways and [42:28] flies belly forward that's correct it's [42:32] well it's not it's you know if you talk [42:34] because I was just talking that guy the [42:35] other day and he said the the irony with [42:38] is these things would be out there for [42:39] hours we don't have you know a [42:41] high-performance airplane does not have [42:43] hours where the gas I mean you know [42:45] Hornets we if we don't have area we're [42:46] feeling you know and we're actually out [42:48] doing a mission and fighting and going [42:50] fast you know you're talking hour and a [42:52] half and you're coming back to land some [42:55] airplanes are even less you know based [42:57] on their size you know so if like an [42:58] f-16 doesn't have external fuel tanks it [43:00] doesn't have a lot of gas and the Soviet [43:03] airplanes are the same way the mig-29 [43:05] does not have a lot of gas the su-27 [43:06] sweet 30s because of weight because it's [43:09] weight performance size of the airplane [43:12] so you know even even our [43:15] intercontinental bombers like b2 they [43:16] still take off and they error or fuel [43:18] they keep topped off so they can get to [43:20] range that's how we extend things you [43:23] got something like this that's coming [43:24] down you know just think of the physics [43:25] so just you know I'll use my instant [43:28] because that's the one I really know the [43:29] best is you've got an object coming from [43:31] above eighty thousand feet so I'll just [43:33] tell you that eighty thousand it's [43:34] somewhere around seventy eighty thousand [43:36] feet is where you can actually start to [43:37] see the curvature of the earth you know [43:39] so that's considered space so they're [43:41] coming from above that they're coming [43:43] straight down they stop at around twenty [43:46] thousand feet they hang out for three [43:48] hours and then they go straight back up [43:50] so and I know you had a lot on the show [43:53] so SpaceX is really excited because they [43:56] can launch a rocket and then they can [43:58] have the booster come back to earth and [43:59] actually land on a pad very impressive [44:02] engineering feat next to this technology [44:06] that's like a Model T next to a Porsche [44:09] I mean it's like wow really that's it [44:11] you know and you got something that can [44:13] just at will and move around now take it [44:15] to the next level and I know this is [44:17] there's a lot of talk about this so [44:18] think is going to go into speculation [44:19] mode but when you take a shape like that [44:20] so just take the tic-tac shape which is [44:22] shaped like a submarine if you're if [44:25] you're using a propulsion that's non [44:26] reactive where you're just manipulating [44:28] the median that you're in [44:29] err whatever you can go into the water [44:33] so when you hear the all the reports of [44:35] hey we've seen these things since you [44:37] know World War two that would come out [44:39] of the water and fly if you have a [44:41] technology like this as long as the [44:43] object is sealed where you're not going [44:44] to get water inside of it there's [44:45] nothing that says you can't do that [44:46] because all you're doing is you're not [44:49] you know where a jet engine sucks in air [44:51] and blows it out the back or a propeller [44:53] actually pushes the water it's a force [44:55] now you've got something that's actually [44:56] manipulating the gravity field and it's [44:59] just moving through a void then it [45:02] doesn't then air you could literally in [45:04] theory fly go into the ocean cruise [45:07] around pop back up fly around go to [45:09] space you're nothing you you remove the [45:12] barriers of the normal propulsion that [45:14] we have today there's been many [45:15] instances of sightings off the coast of [45:18] California of things that plunge into [45:20] the water or escape from the water and [45:23] take off into space [45:24] so yeah the with this field propulsion [45:27] system as commander favors describing as [45:29] Lazar described it doesn't matter the [45:31] medium of space air or water there's no [45:34] resistance no splash and this goes back [45:36] to you know when Christopher Columbus [45:37] reported a UFO sighting he did oh yeah [45:40] did this idea that so this has been [45:43] around anyway this idea boom that you [45:45] can go through these different mediums [45:47] will pause for a second Christopher [45:49] Columbus at a UFO sorry yeah it's it's a [45:51] written account so it's like find that [45:53] no video it's [ __ ] [45:59] Leslie but that's what's so cool so [46:00] commander framers encounter it's not the [46:04] most documented it's not the most [46:06] dramatic however it has had the most [46:09] impact out of any sighting because of [46:12] his credibility and the mere fact that [46:14] the the New York Times picked it up with [46:16] video footage radar evidence and [46:19] somebody who is as credible as commander [46:21] forever it has changed the dynamic of [46:23] the way people the government responds [46:25] new Navy protocols because of commander [46:28] flavor coming forward there are there's [46:31] closed-door congressional and Senate [46:33] briefings he's been part of them he's [46:35] admitted that before there's a new study [46:37] about UFOs because of this encounter [46:41] it's so much [46:42] evidence has so much power to it [46:44] compared to other ones the Christopher [46:45] Columbus great cool story somebody wrote [46:47] it down who news who knows if he even [46:48] wrote it down we have highly documented [46:50] cases this one has changed our culture [46:53] and that's what's so cool people are [46:55] talking about it differently [46:56] so here's this is a good story this is [46:59] true so sitting at home and usually when [47:01] people try and find me they get my wife [47:03] cell phone because it's the first one on [47:04] the cell phone ville and it's on my name [47:06] so I get I see this call from California [47:08] and I'm like you normally don't answer [47:09] them and it's her phone like whose call [47:11] my wife because that is me so I answer [47:15] it and this lady says hey is commander [47:16] forever there and I go who's calling she [47:19] goes well I'd like to talk to him at her [47:21] forever I go who's calling she says hi [47:24] I'm a 79 year old woman and I would just [47:27] like to tell him my story I go you're [47:28] talking to him and she goes I've never [47:31] in my life told anyone this [47:32] she goes my I grew up my dad was in the [47:35] Navy she goes I was he was stationed in [47:37] Rhode Island at first when she was a [47:38] child she said we were walking her and [47:40] her mom while walking on the beach and [47:42] they saw these weird lights so that kind [47:44] of got her into that Oh UFOs she goes [47:47] few years later they had moved to San [47:49] Francisco so I imagine Treasure Island [47:51] because at her age that would have been [47:52] you know right in the 50s her dad was [47:55] [ __ ] her dad is working as a Navy [47:56] liaison to the agency and he came home [48:00] one day and he had a telegram in his [48:01] hand and she goes for some reason he let [48:03] me read it she's told me this story and [48:05] I said well what did say she says it was [48:07] it basically said hey unidentified [48:09] objects going in and out of the water [48:11] and it had a latitude and longitude in [48:12] it and he looked at her she goes and I'm [48:15] a child I always remember that she says [48:17] he looked at me and said we get these [48:19] all the time and it's always in the same [48:21] area and I go of course I go well you [48:25] got the telegram she goes of course not [48:27] he had to take it back to work I said [48:29] you don't have to remember that [48:30] latitude/longitude she said no she goes [48:33] but you seem to be so credible and [48:36] believable she goes I wanted to tell [48:38] someone the story that I've never told [48:39] anyone in my life so that's what you're [48:41] starting to see is people that you know [48:44] very credible they're not you know [48:46] they're not they're not crazy they're [48:47] not making stuff up but they're coming [48:49] out and going hey I've had these [48:51] experience and I've got a lot of that [48:52] from for over the last two years where [48:54] people just find my email [48:56] and send me stuff saying hey this [48:57] happened to me I saw this and and [49:00] there's some things are explainable [49:02] because I got asked to tell this so [49:03] because we're kind of I have a sixth [49:05] sense of humor at times so like I said I [49:08] had all these koala [49:09] we used to fly they don't do it right [49:11] now because it's a little bit dangerous [49:12] but we used to fly night-vision goggles [49:14] low altitude in Hornets all right so [49:18] when you put on night-vision goggles [49:20] they amplify light [49:20] like a lot so you can see a campfire [49:23] like 50 miles away so we used to do it [49:26] the good spots were down in like al [49:27] central California there's a range that [49:29] there's some bombing ranges but people [49:32] go camping in the Superstition Mountains [49:33] which is a kind of north and west of [49:36] Imperial by I forget what it is the [49:39] springs it's real pretty in a desert [49:40] it'll come to me in a minute [49:42] so we even go out at night flying around [49:44] on goggles and you'd see a campfire and [49:47] you go up UFO time and then you get the [49:51] airplane going about 600 knots and then [49:53] you pull the power back to idle so you [49:55] can't hear it and you get zing in [49:57] towards the fire well you turn the [49:59] lights are all now because we're in [50:00] restricted area so we can do that and [50:02] there's lights on it that you can only [50:04] see if you're on night-vision goggles [50:06] so the other airplanes can see us but no [50:08] one else can see us you go zing and at [50:10] it and then right when you get to the [50:12] campfire you pull the airplane into the [50:13] vertical yes stroke the afterburners you [50:15] let them light off you count to three to [50:17] pull them off and then you just go away [50:18] instant UFO reporting I'm sitting out in [50:22] the desert it's all quiet and all of a [50:24] sudden there's a lure there's lights in [50:25] the sky and they go away and it's gone [50:27] like you would do that just to [ __ ] with [50:30] campers yes [50:32] yes I did not the only one who did it [50:35] but like I said we have a sixth sense of [50:37] humor yes so so some things are [50:40] explainable because I guarantee there [50:42] were phone calls made on some of the [50:43] stuff that we did and I guarantee you're [50:44] not the only one who's ever done that I [50:46] know I'm not yeah I'm not that creative [50:49] but it's just you know you think about [50:52] it you go because people go I saw this [50:54] or I saw that because I've got stuff [50:55] like that and I go yeah I used to create [50:56] stuff like that just not toes do you are [50:58] you Jeremy I'm sure you're aware of this [51:00] the footage from the the Mexican Air [51:01] Force yeah yeah very aware that what do [51:03] you think about that well again it's [51:05] it's IR footage which is really [51:07] interesting they actually got the [51:08] cameras for [51:08] runners right so you you can see in the [51:11] infrared so it's beyond the observable [51:13] you know I I myself have not detailed [51:18] looked at the footage however FLIR [51:19] experts and people that work with NSA [51:21] have looked at it for me and they these [51:23] are not lights in the distance [51:25] these are craft very similar to what [51:28] commander favor talks about without [51:29] plumes without heat signatures [51:32] you know non-traditional field [51:34] propulsion systems we don't have that [51:37] I thought they tried to assist it right [51:39] here it's just a mexican air force [51:40] footage yeah so they tried to say these [51:43] were lights on like an oil rig out in [51:45] the water that's been diba you say was a [51:48] fire mm to the comcast video of the year [51:53] was the mexican air force tracking like [51:55] six so literally right after our [51:56] incident I come and we come back and I [51:58] think we were getting ready to go to [51:59] fallon and i'm i had comcast and that [52:02] the homepage comes up and there's this [52:03] video and i go holy cow that looks like [52:05] what we chased and it was like six of [52:07] these things and they were tracking them [52:08] in the same area two right off the coast [52:09] Ensenada and it's not as rare there's [52:12] now admitted and increased frequency the [52:15] pentagon spokeswoman finally went [52:17] off-script i was tracking the scripts [52:19] for the last two years of what pentagon [52:20] spokespeople say about commander favors [52:22] experience someone went off script last [52:24] week in the new york times and she [52:25] admitted there's an increased frequency [52:27] of near misses because of these a AVS [52:30] anomalous aerospace vehicles so it's [52:33] pretty astounding we're getting all [52:34] these kind of revelatory moments in [52:36] these little seeds that these are not [52:38] ours we don't have this even Elan [52:40] doesn't have this I mean this is a [52:42] propulsion system unlike anything we [52:45] have it's amazing it's gravity propelled [52:48] now that gimbal footage when it said [52:50] that there's a fleet of them how far [52:53] away are those guys where you're seeing [52:55] you don't see the individual objects you [52:57] only see a singular spot well the pod is [53:01] you know when you get pretty narrow it'd [53:02] be like you know if I put three people [53:04] around you I can look at you and not see [53:05] the other people so that's what the pod [53:07] is doing but the radar is seeing [53:09] everything because it's a it has a nice [53:11] array dharna which is an active [53:12] electronically scanned array so instead [53:14] of like the radars we had which did the [53:16] mechanical you know doing this like [53:18] old-school [53:18] this thing is just a panel that sits in [53:20] the front of the airplane and through [53:21] beam sharing [53:22] beam's shaping it can move and it can [53:24] look all over so we used to have what [53:25] was called trackball scans so we would [53:27] be able to track a target why we're [53:28] still scanning this thing has scan law [53:30] but it scans while tracks so it it [53:33] literally if it sees you if the radar [53:35] sees you it has basically a weapons [53:37] quality solution then it can do that on [53:39] multiple targets is that's how it that's [53:41] the same way that the spy radar the [53:43] aegis system works on the cruisers they [53:45] can track multiple targets and have [53:47] weapons quality on all these different [53:48] targets while it's still scanning a [53:50] volume so in that image you're seeing [53:53] one individual object but there's other [53:54] objects yes the radar is seeing the [53:57] object that the pod is looking at where [53:58] they're talking and when you hear the [54:00] video you hear the the pilot say dude [54:03] look at the sa page there's there's a [54:04] whole fleet of them so what they're [54:06] seeing is the the the pod is looking at [54:09] the main that's the bigger object at the [54:10] gimbal the thing that's rotating on the [54:12] screen and there's five smaller things [54:14] in front so this thing's just sitting [54:15] there and then they kind of he said they [54:16] turn around on this on the radar and [54:18] start going the other way while the pods [54:20] looking at this guy just kind of [54:21] rotating so like a mothership and [54:23] smaller aircraft could be something [54:25] along those lines is there video of [54:27] those smaller aircrafts are just the [54:29] venom of the one large the only thing [54:30] they have is that the targeting pod I [54:33] would highly doubt even if they had the [54:34] video that they're gonna release the [54:36] radar video because of classification [54:37] levels are you able to tell the story [54:40] you told me about what was underwater [54:43] with your your other buddy because is [54:46] that okay yeah yeah [54:47] so it remains you know people come out [54:50] of the woodwork when they figure out you [54:51] feni's because now they don't feel alone [54:54] so I was working I'd worked I still do [54:57] it but I was doing oil and gas at the [54:59] time on a contract and one of the guys [55:01] the story came out and he was a Navy [55:03] helicopter pilot and he comes in he [55:06] comes in he goes Dee can I talk to you [55:08] man I go what am I guess I gotta talk to [55:10] you I said what do you wanna talk to me [55:12] about he says dude you know your UFO he [55:15] said yeah he goes I had a similar [55:16] experience I said what's that he said he [55:18] was flying ch-53 s which is a big lift [55:21] heavy lift that the Marine Corps uses [55:23] and the Navy uses it for certain things [55:24] and when they go off of for the East [55:27] Coast they do a lot of shooting off of [55:28] at the time it was off of Puerto Rico we [55:30] had Roosevelt roads that they ended up [55:31] close and [55:32] but he was flying out of there and you [55:35] know you got super clear Caribbean water [55:37] and they have these things called beak [55:39] um as they fly around and when they're [55:41] all done because they'll fly towards the [55:42] ships and the ship can sorry about that [55:44] they can track with the radar and then [55:46] they also do in a like the ships or [55:48] submarines shoot torpedoes there they're [55:50] called telemetry rounds so they have [55:52] they gather all the data on what the [55:53] torpedo or is doing underwater and then [55:55] they blow ballast and this thing will [55:57] come to the surface and float and then [55:58] they go pick them up and then they can [55:59] extract all the data out of them so they [56:02] do it for both so he said the first time [56:04] they're out and they're gonna pick up [56:05] his beak um and those things when [56:07] they're flying they're done a parachute [56:08] comes out and they gotta go they hook it [56:09] up the helo drops a swimmer in the water [56:11] he goes and hooks this whole thing up [56:13] then they hoist the whole thing up and [56:14] fly back and then they extract it in so [56:16] he says he's sitting in the front you [56:18] know in helicopters there's you know [56:19] c-53 you can actually see down by your [56:21] feet you know just like typical like you [56:22] got a Hawaiian ride so because you can [56:24] see when you're touching down so you got [56:25] really good visibility out of those [56:27] things and you can stick your head out [56:28] the window too because you're just gonna [56:29] hang it out he says he's going on there [56:31] and they're getting this thing hooked up [56:32] and as he's looking down you know cuz [56:34] they're I don't know what fifty feet [56:36] above the water he sees kind of this [56:37] dark mass coming up from the depths and [56:39] they starting to hoist the the diver up [56:42] and he's got they've gotten a beak um [56:43] and as they hoist it up he says and he's [56:45] looking at the single and what the hell [56:46] is that and then it just goes back down [56:48] underwater it's just like once they [56:50] pulled a kid in the beak um out of the [56:52] water this object descends back into the [56:54] deficit so he thinks well I was pretty [56:57] weird so he goes out he says not too [56:59] long later you know a few months later [57:00] he's out he's picking up a torpedo so he [57:03] says they got the they hooked the diver [57:05] up on the winch and they're lowering him [57:07] in and he's looking down he sees this [57:08] big massive because it's not a submarine [57:10] he's seen submarines before once you see [57:11] a submarine he can't confuse it with [57:13] something else this big object you know [57:16] kind of circular says it's coming up [57:18] from the depths and he starts screaming [57:19] to through the intercom system to tell [57:22] him to pull the diver up and the divers [57:23] like Fifi from the water so they've [57:26] reversed the winch and the divers [57:27] thinkin what the hell's going on and [57:29] he's getting pulled up and all of a [57:30] sudden he said the torpedo just got [57:33] sucked down underwater and the object [57:35] just descended back down into the depths [57:37] and they never occurred that that [57:39] torpedoes Jesus and this happened in the [57:41] late 90s late mid to late 90s thank you [57:46] I can pray get in touch with him and ask [57:47] him and he told me this story and I'm [57:48] like how do you report that you come in [57:51] and go well [57:52] where'd the torpedo go I just got sucked [57:55] down they just went down you know and [57:56] then you get to people that attribute it [57:58] as I something happened when it blew [57:59] ballasts and it just took on water and [58:01] sink and he's like it didn't sink he [58:02] goes it literally looked like it got [58:04] sucked down the only reason he didn't [58:07] they talked to him when they did the New [58:09] York Times stuff they talked to him but [58:10] it because the incident was from the 90s [58:13] they didn't want to they wanted [58:14] something you know newer mm-hmm so they [58:16] did not include it but I know they [58:17] talked to him about it now what was the [58:19] other footage that we were walking at [58:20] there was the first footage that Jamie [58:21] pulled up there wasn't a gimbal footage [58:23] go fast go fast what is that that's a it [58:26] actually looks more like a tic-tac but [58:28] it's they saw it going across the water [58:31] and they're they're just grabbing a lock [58:33] so they're seeing this with their eyes [58:35] and he gets the FLIR to lock out and [58:36] that's when you hear the kid go I got it [58:38] cuz he gets the AutoTrack and it's just [58:39] something screaming across the surface [58:41] of the water so and this is in the same [58:44] area [58:44] this is East Coast yeah this is the same [58:46] time frame as the gimbal video so the [58:48] idea that these are birds or the idea [58:51] that this is a radar glitch or somebody [58:52] said pilot error like on a clear blue [58:55] day commander flavor has nerves I mean [58:56] that kind of thing that people have said [58:58] on your show to you that you know this [59:00] these are explanations that make sense [59:02] who saw the I don't want to say that [59:05] West yes sure [59:07] Maina mint believes everything like [59:09] every single thing that's ever happened [59:11] has a rational explanation yeah it's so [59:14] that you know the probability that you [59:16] know all the radars went off at the [59:17] wrong time commander flavor you know had [59:19] nerves and all the other pilots up there [59:21] with him that you know this thing's shot [59:22] off like a like a can like a gun [59:24] instantly like that that was somehow [59:26] perfectly coordinated that's a [59:28] conspiracy that that's a fabrication [59:30] probably Occam's razor as the events [59:33] happen exactly like we're being told [59:35] yeah for us it was you know and I'll go [59:38] back to the beginning of the story of [59:39] you know the other pilot who was [59:41] brand-new yeah she had been in the [59:43] squadron for four months five months so [59:48] she's pretty junior she's still working [59:49] on her initial quality airplane and you [59:52] know so she gets the you know we get the [59:53] real world vector and it's like okay [59:55] real world vector cool I'm gonna get to [59:56] do something real exciting then you see [59:58] the [59:59] water and you think Oh something sinking [60:02] because it's kind of that shape of an [60:03] airplane you know that cross type so now [60:06] it's oh crap now it's search and rescue [60:08] we got to go down and see you know [60:10] because there's people you know and we [60:11] are sympathetic and to the tic-tac and [60:15] as soon as a tic-tac it's like I mean a [60:17] holy [ __ ] what is that you know and when [60:19] you get you know some people get very [60:21] emotional when you talk about it because [60:24] for me it was like yeah you know I you [60:27] know for her when you talk to her she [60:31] has a disdain for some of the leadership [60:35] that didn't tell us that these things [60:36] were out there you know they're here now [60:38] we're getting vectored because we were [60:39] the first time demand airplanes had been [60:41] airborne when one of these things showed [60:42] up that no one even gave us a brief that [60:44] hey we're seeing these objects out here [60:45] for the last two weeks they're just kind [60:47] of [ __ ] you might want to know they're [60:48] out there and they never told us [60:50] no one knew these things existed besides [60:52] the radar operators and the radar [60:53] operators didn't know what they were [60:54] they just knew they were seeing blips [60:57] you know so there's a lot of stuff that [60:59] you know that it flew around and it came [61:02] around me and it didn't do any of that [61:04] stuff it's the story that I gave you if [61:07] just relatively benign but it was you [61:10] know it's it's an interesting experience [61:12] so these incidents that they reported [61:15] were taking place before you saw your [61:18] that Tic Tac encounter yeah they they [61:20] were taking place over a period of how [61:22] many weeks two weeks we went out in the [61:24] beginning of the month for that's this [61:26] two-week ATS a period we pulled in for [61:28] Thanksgiving but other that we were out [61:30] till time December 21st is when we [61:32] pulled the ship back in besides pulling [61:34] in for three days at Thanksgiving so [61:36] yeah for the two weeks prior so this was [61:38] on the fourteenth and we went out at the [61:39] beginning of the month so about two [61:40] weeks they've been watching these things [61:41] come down go up come down go up but it [61:44] was always when we were not flying which [61:46] is really probably like the midnight [61:47] timeframe until early in the morning the [61:49] next you know till noon the next day and [61:51] then we just happen to go and if you [61:53] think about it you know I laugh it you [61:55] know if there was some little green man [61:57] flying around in that tic-tac he [61:59] probably got back to the mothership and [62:00] got yelled at for being seen like oh my [62:04] god you let him see you so so have you [62:08] communicated with anybody that has any [62:12] thoughts [62:13] why what these things are doing or the [62:17] the whether or not there's any [62:18] consistency to the size of them or [62:20] whether or not they think they're coming [62:23] out of a larger object or anything along [62:25] these lines no you know you can ask well [62:29] cuz I was asking you know what do you [62:30] think they were doing you know and I [62:31] said because you can look well they were [62:33] observing you know because they're [62:36] coming down and watching number two is [62:38] they were communicating because I think [62:39] you know in my heart I think there was [62:41] something under the water I don't you [62:43] know what it was doing there but because [62:46] of when you saw the X the cross looking [62:49] yep thing explained that again so the [62:51] disturbance may be in the shape of a [62:53] cross yeah like I described it as it's [62:56] about the size of a 737 so just think if [62:58] you submerge the 737 pointing it to the [63:01] east underwater by like you know 10 15 [63:05] feet so as these waves are coming across [63:06] when they you know they hit that object [63:08] they're gonna break on top just like you [63:10] would with a submerge like a seamount so [63:12] and it's it's they're breaking and [63:14] that's where the tic-tac was that this [63:15] only reason we saw the tic-tac that's [63:16] what drew our eyes down there as we see [63:18] this whitewater when it's a perfectly [63:20] clear day with no Whitecaps and you go [63:22] oh what's that and then you see the [63:23] tic-tac and then we you know we do all [63:25] the chasing the tic-tac and we turn [63:27] we're right there [63:27] and we turn around and there's no white [63:29] water it's just blue as far as you can [63:31] see so at that point you go okay what [63:36] was it doing because there was obviously [63:37] something there that's not there now hmm [63:41] so that's where I say well it's it was [63:42] observing us it was could been [63:44] communicating with or whatever was there [63:46] you know and then someone else looked at [63:48] me and said you know I was talking to [63:49] Lou and he goes what about prepping the [63:50] battlefield I go okay you know so if you [63:53] go you know or these things from we [63:55] don't know you know are they from China [63:56] Russia someplace else I don't know but [64:00] it's a it's a capability that we do not [64:04] possess to my knowledge and if you asked [64:07] me in 2004 cuz there's a lot of guys go [64:09] out maybe it's some secret government [64:10] program I go alright well let's let's [64:15] let's be honest one if you have a [64:17] propulsion system that made it gave the [64:19] capabilities that we observed visually [64:23] that's a huge leap for mankind' period [64:25] so you would say yeah that was you know [64:29] think about its it's gonna be 15 years [64:31] next month [64:32] you know that we saw this I would like [64:34] to think that okay maybe let's just say [64:36] in 2004 it was something somebody had [64:39] this some government had this I don't [64:41] ours whatever [64:42] if you come to now you go 15 years later [64:44] you don't think that technology would [64:45] have emerged because it literally would [64:47] change everything we do I mean we're [64:49] happy about you know hybrid and electric [64:50] cars and all this other stuff but if [64:53] you've got something that works like [64:54] that air try would change our travel [64:57] forever [64:57] no visible percent system of propulsion [65:01] no what no plumes no it's just uh [65:04] yes we jokey and said that's a thing of [65:06] a 40-foot long tic-tac that can move at [65:09] will through the air at speeds well [65:12] beyond what we've ever witnessed I mean [65:15] even when you watch a rocket go off you [65:17] know one of Ilan's or one of the NASA [65:19] whatever you know you sit there and I [65:21] grew up during the Apollo ageism where [65:23] you just look at the thing go up up up [65:25] up up I've seen them shot out of [65:26] Vandenberg where you go you know I'd sit [65:27] in my house in central California and [65:29] you watch you go up and go I can watch [65:30] that thing for a while this is something [65:32] that just like poof a matter of seconds [65:34] is gone now our other pilots or other [65:37] people that have cited these things have [65:39] they also reported something larger [65:41] that's in the water near it no no not [65:45] the ones I've talked to I mean I think [65:47] you know you can get on History Channel [65:49] there's all this stuff on there about [65:50] people talking about stuff but you know [65:52] what here's the question is what do you [65:54] believe what you not believe and you [65:55] know my biggest frustration is the you [65:59] know our incident and even the folks on [66:01] the East Coast it is what it is to us [66:03] there's no reason to embellish there's [66:05] no reason to make stuff up but yet [66:06] there's still groups of people that are [66:08] making stuff up like someone came out on [66:11] ours was talking about and he's like I I [66:13] saw the whole the whole video is ten [66:15] minutes long and it was doing all this [66:16] it's [ __ ] what you see is that's [66:19] literally the entire video it's a minute [66:21] and a half long I think it's about a [66:22] minute and a half long what people [66:24] haven't seen that I saw I mean I've seen [66:26] the radar tapes because I had them as my [66:27] squadron you know I've heard you know [66:30] the men in black you know I just I'm [66:33] free you know maybe the okay I'll give [66:35] you the credit if they did but why [66:36] wouldn't they show [66:36] and talk to the guys who actually [66:38] witnessed it chased it and is one of the [66:41] senior guys in that group right it's [66:42] also possible that that men and black [66:44] stuff was something they used to do back [66:46] in the day and that that program was no [66:48] longer continued and you know from [66:51] Jeremy you would know this the older [66:53] sightings when they go back into the day [66:55] into historical sightings and I'm not [66:58] not Columbus but you know a 50s and 60s [67:00] did they have similar things that they [67:02] talked about or something moved in this [67:04] manner yeah it's absolutely incredible [67:06] and I want to dumb this down because [67:08] that's how I had to understand it when I [67:09] was talking with commander favor years [67:11] before I kept his secret years before [67:14] the New York Times blew it up I told him [67:16] it's probably gonna happen it wasn't by [67:18] me we were talking about it [67:20] this system that we have seen for over [67:23] 70 years just documented by our military [67:26] this is so important this is a non [67:29] reactionary field propulsion system [67:32] everything we know is a reactionary [67:35] propulsion system you push something out [67:36] the back it goes forward this is not [67:38] like a mag system this is a [67:41] gravitational field propulsion system [67:43] and throughout history our military has [67:46] documented them and there has been [67:48] ridiculed now I'll tell you exactly why [67:49] 1952 there was a huge flyover of [67:52] Washington DC jets were scrambled all [67:55] the papers covered it's very famous you [67:57] know case everybody can look up it's an [67:59] important case because at that time a [68:02] policy was started and that policy [68:04] started because it crashed our [68:07] communications that teletypes went down [68:09] the panic of the UFOs that were being [68:12] seen by people with fighter pilots [68:14] trying to capture and trying to engage [68:16] them and and it crashed the teletypes so [68:19] our government was like oh that's not [68:21] happening again because you know Russia [68:22] could use that as a scare tactic so this [68:25] policy of denial don't look here nothing [68:28] to see move on UFOs are fake [68:30] that's what Project Blue Book was tasked [68:32] to do specifically the guy who ran it [68:35] admitted that that it was tasked to [68:38] debunk this and demystify the UFO thing [68:40] that's J Allen Hynek correct right [68:42] I also yeah jr. Hynek um he was once [68:45] asked by a friend of mine do you have [68:47] the smoking gun I'll give you this [68:49] documents pretty amazed [68:50] it's an Air Force manual where they [68:51] explain what they know about UFOs at [68:53] that time in 1967 but here's the point [68:56] yes this has been going on since the [68:58] beginning of recorded human history [69:00] these propulsion systems that are [69:03] captured on footage you know that is [69:06] confirmed now by the net by the Pentagon [69:08] like commander flavors experience this [69:11] technology is not ours it's it was here [69:14] 70 years ago you stole my 15 years ago [69:16] we didn't know we would see it now these [69:19] exact things at 20,000 miles an hour [69:21] going on 70 years ago documented [69:23] somebody has a non reactionary feel [69:27] propulsion system now are they aliens or [69:30] some subset of humans you know somebody [69:33] has them and they're fine [69:34] through our airspace with impunity and [69:36] pilots like commander favor who by the [69:38] way defended Los Angeles over not after [69:41] 9/11 I mean this is a guy we put all of [69:43] our trust him he was defending Lausanne [69:45] just right after 9/11 so we got people [69:47] like him coming forward saying I saw [69:49] this and you got Internet warriors being [69:51] like it's a bird it's a glitch it's [69:52] Superman let's not concentrate on them [69:54] what about the Columbus thing did you [69:56] find that yeah it's just there's like [69:58] light 1492 light signature event that [70:02] they saw white in the distance because [70:04] it is the actual text no there's nothing [70:08] like Wikipedia stuff it's just one of [70:11] the oldest accounts I was trying to [70:13] throw out that this is something that do [70:15] you know of there's a very famous [70:17] painting that shows what appears to be [70:20] men in crafts flying through the sky in [70:23] the background of an ancient painting do [70:27] you know I'm talking about I do I [70:28] actually have a page one of the first [70:30] pages ever put on my website is like a [70:32] bunch of these because throughout [70:34] history there are these indications of [70:37] ships of crap but you know what the one [70:40] I'm talking about it's like and yes that [70:43] that's the shape of it it's also like a [70:45] plate turned on its side and then [70:48] there's a person inside of it yeah yeah [70:50] man it's it's flying through in that [70:52] same yeah that's it yeah [70:54] like look how it it's flying but you [70:57] know the thing is is it everybody can [70:58] say are the one above that's pretty cool [71:00] because that was a hidden thing I've [71:02] studied that one where it says [71:03] discovery fifteenth-century above the [71:06] her left shoulder there is an object and [71:09] if you really zoom in look at the dudes [71:11] staring up at it as a painter my wife is [71:14] a painter everything is intentional [71:15] which wears the ground of the ground [71:17] yeah right over there it's pretty cool [71:18] looking up so I think that's 15th [71:20] century it said so that the problem with [71:22] this Joe is it go to the original one [71:23] the one that we just looked at Jamie the [71:25] one right before that yeah so you get a [71:27] big picture yeah that is so strange like [71:30] here you got Christ being crucified and [71:32] then above him UFOs like is that [71:37] supposed to be aliens or is that [71:40] supposed to be angels like so what is [71:41] that supposed to be in these things that [71:44] they have it's severe it's real similar [71:47] to what we're talking about here that's [71:49] the argument of miracle of Fatima let's [71:51] say I mean again this is so speculative [71:52] we have a witness here of you know pilot [71:54] but when you see something like the [71:56] miracle of Fatima if you look at the [71:58] miracle of Fatima God that's that one [72:00] that was you know considered a real [72:02] miracle by the church and the three kids [72:04] we're getting messages I'll get this all [72:06] wrong but for like months that they're [72:08] going to be visited and to bring people [72:09] and bigger and bigger groups gathered to [72:11] where there was over a hundred thousand [72:12] people years of 1917 1917 so you know [72:18] dozens of thousands if not hundreds but [72:21] dozens for sure see an event a mass [72:25] sighting of something that happened [72:27] we're talking people that were religious [72:29] people that weren't religious you know [72:30] doctors that that's not a real image [72:32] there's a gym now one's doctored a [72:33] little bit so you could see what they're [72:35] all looking at something but that's not [72:36] real yeah that's the but that's the [72:38] crowd right the crowd is real is that [72:41] right so here's the thing people come [72:44] out something happened that was so [72:45] intense some people thought it was [72:48] religious that it was a visitation but [72:50] other people saw it as technological [72:52] like something descended you know look [72:55] into I'm just saying art pictures like [72:57] paintings we're talking about men you [72:59] can interpret them all day I can't hold [73:01] on to that I can't hold on to an [73:03] eyewitness with other eyewitnesses with [73:06] radar systems and with video we're in a [73:09] different era now we don't have to paint [73:10] it man we get to see it it's fascinating [73:13] man [73:14] it is fascinating but it's way more [73:15] faster [73:16] when someone like you talks about it [73:18] versus some [ __ ] random kook you know [73:22] that's that's what makes me incredibly [73:24] interested is the just your credibility [73:28] in the fact that this is not you know [73:30] I'm a history of seeing wacky [ __ ] that [73:32] other people don't see no just this once [73:34] and but it's the on video and that [73:36] there's other ones as well this it's [73:37] really strange that I've seen people try [73:39] to explain it away and what I don't like [73:41] about when they explained it away or [73:43] attempt to explain it away is that [73:45] they're trying really hard they're not [73:47] going who knows what this [ __ ] thing [73:49] is they're not looking at it like [73:50] cleanly they're looking at it like a [73:53] quote-unquote skeptic I don't like the [73:56] idea of being a skeptic not that I don't [73:59] think you should be skeptical of certain [74:00] things I certainly think you should be [74:02] but there's a lot of people that brand [74:03] themselves as skeptics and I think it's [74:06] a lazy way to look at things I really do [74:08] because I think you're just looking for [74:11] the holes in things without looking at [74:13] it objectively if you wanted to be a [74:14] scientist if you wanted to be someone [74:16] who is a fan of science then you have to [74:20] look at it as a thing like look at this [74:22] information and let's study this without [74:25] any bias any preconceived notions I [74:27] don't think they're doing that they're [74:29] looking at it they're trying to find a [74:31] way where they can justify that it's [74:33] fake and they're they're just doing all [74:36] sorts of mental gymnastics to try to [74:38] make it fake that video that you show [74:40] where that thing slips off to the left [74:42] and takes off at incredible rates of [74:44] speed that alone should freak people the [74:46] [ __ ] out yeah well I think because [74:49] people confuse all the time like we took [74:51] the video no it was another crew that [74:52] took the video we we watched it for five [74:54] minutes with our eyeballs and there was [74:56] four of us and we all have the same [74:58] story we all saw the same stuff we all [75:01] came back and looked at each other and [75:02] scratched her head and said WTF you know [75:04] I mean serious what was that you know [75:08] and then what do you do you you move on [75:11] we never saw it again I imagine they [75:15] probably saw him on radar after that but [75:16] I think they're probably seeing them on [75:18] radar all the time they just don't bring [75:20] it to the attention of the general [75:22] public oh yeah because if you don't you [75:24] know for for a ship when they see [75:25] something and you know you know what is [75:27] that well you don't have any way to go [75:28] out there and look at it [75:30] like when you're talking about how they [75:31] were informing you that they were seeing [75:33] these things previous to your your [75:36] mission when you're doing this exercise [75:39] and they let you know that they're [75:41] seeing these things did you say hey how [75:44] frequent is this is this something that [75:45] happens all the time I didn't get in [75:48] that ours was more of the moment of you [75:50] know when he's telling us save for the [75:51] last two weeks we've been tracking these [75:53] things right and we don't know what they [75:55] are but you don't know whether or not it [75:57] was just those two weeks or maybe it was [75:58] a year ago there was other similar [76:00] situations or there's other situations [76:02] that have happened out there but yeah I [76:04] would say you know for this I I don't [76:06] even know one you got to take it serious [76:09] we have a tendency if we don't know what [76:11] it is if we just ignore it it'll go away [76:13] you know and I joke you know there was [76:15] an incident years [76:16] miss prentace pry not too far off the [76:18] same timeframe where I think it was like [76:20] constellation was doing her work ups [76:22] before she got decommissioned and an [76:25] Oscar class of Soviet Oscar class [76:26] submarine surfaced behind her mm-hmm [76:30] right [76:30] and then it's now it's like you know go [76:33] to battle stations world war three how [76:34] did this how did this foreign submarine [76:37] get in our area and spend monitoring our [76:39] workups that's a big deal right I said [76:41] but now we go out and we have these [76:42] things that are coming out will there's [76:45] nothing we can do about it we don't know [76:47] what they are we have confirmed sighting [76:50] by two aircrew four of us two planes [76:53] that said look this is not this is not [76:56] an airplane this is not a weather [76:57] balloon this is not a blip it has [76:59] performance well beyond you know in the [77:01] airplanes that we were flying at the [77:02] time were literally brand-new super [77:04] hornets right out of the Boeing factory [77:05] I mean these these these were brand new [77:08] first block two series that came out and [77:11] you go why wasn't something done you [77:14] know it's like we don't know what it is [77:16] I think it's good now you know the moves [77:18] that have happened over the last you [77:20] know two years since the original [77:21] article came out that you know they're [77:23] there now there's a new reporting for [77:25] the pilots the Navy's acknowledged hey [77:27] these things we don't know what they [77:28] were you know they're they're starting [77:30] to take it serious because you know I [77:32] know there are other events that are not [77:34] out recent events where people have been [77:37] called in to go have seen this thing so [77:39] the investigation process is still going [77:41] on you know we don't [77:43] we don't study the military doesn't stop [77:45] even if you take funding away we don't [77:46] stop you know we don't stop until we're [77:48] told to stop so you know what's what's [77:52] going on I you know you go well a tip [77:54] ended you know they spent four and a [77:55] half million dollars a year on it I [77:57] think it was four nests 22 million over [77:58] the five years see you go what are they [78:01] doing since then well I mean I'm pretty [78:04] sure there's still people looking at [78:05] this and there's still people that are [78:06] taking this serious I will tell you that [78:08] I won't get into specifics but there are [78:11] there are people inside the United [78:12] States government that are taking this [78:13] serious and I've been I've went down to [78:15] DC twice to talk to folks you know [78:18] behind closed doors to go because they [78:20] want to hear the story and I've got a [78:22] lot of you got to be joking yeah I mean [78:24] this this seriously happened and and I'm [78:27] like yeah it did happen and it is real [78:29] you know what are you doing about it so [78:31] what kind of people are you talking to [78:33] high-level government officials is what [78:36] I'll say and most of that is because [78:37] that conversation is between me and them [78:39] and I don't want people speculating but [78:41] you can say high-level government [78:43] officials I have talked to well that was [78:46] always the the speculation about like [78:49] what would someone do if they became [78:51] president well the first thing I would [78:53] do is I would tell everybody about the [78:55] UFOs I would ask immediately what's [78:58] going on and I always thought about I [79:00] said how many people actually know [79:01] what's going on and how much of the [79:03] information I mean it's not like if [79:05] they're dealing with something like this [79:07] like your experience it seems like what [79:11] you described is what is known so it's [79:16] this anomalous event with this thing [79:20] defies our current understanding of [79:22] technology and then it's gone yes and so [79:25] what do you have you don't have anything [79:27] else other than that like what other [79:29] information does anybody have well I [79:32] would say I would say this because I've [79:34] talked to Bob we did a table czar yeah [79:36] we did an event together and I'll leave [79:38] it to everyone to if he it's up to you [79:41] to believe Bob I'll say this [79:43] Bob's a normal guy Bob's not crazy he's [79:46] not crazy at all not at all that was the [79:47] weirdest thing about talking to him but [79:49] when you when you look at it and go [79:51] because I had asked Bob I said what he [79:54] describes in the technology when he [79:56] talks about his [79:56] his story I said well do you honestly [80:00] think we could you know reverse engineer [80:02] it I said how long do you think it would [80:04] take us and his response to me was [80:05] another hundred years he goes Dave it [80:08] was so far beyond he goes the stuff that [80:11] he says he worked on he's like you know [80:13] there was on your podcast cuz I watched [80:15] it you know hey there was no wires and [80:17] because I had asked him when he said you [80:19] first described the ship that he got to [80:21] see he said I used to say you know they [80:23] built it and then it was like wax and [80:24] you'd heat it up he goes now I would say [80:26] it was built with 3d printing because [80:27] now a 3d printing we didn't know things [80:29] literally from the ground up and it's [80:30] basically built as one not panels no [80:33] rivets it's just made right and so when [80:37] you talk about that and you go well it's [80:38] still another 100 years so you go well [80:40] what if you had the technology we still [80:42] if if what Bob says is correct we still [80:45] don't understand it and how fast would [80:48] it take us to understand that [80:49] I mean if it's if it's driven by [80:51] something that we don't even have on [80:52] earth which is when he talks about that [80:54] element we can't create it you know we [80:59] can create it for a microsecond and then [81:01] it you know it decays and we call them [81:03] at 115 yeah so you know I think we're [81:06] we're still a long ways off you know [81:08] I'll argue with the people that go you [81:11] know are we really alone I was telling [81:13] Jeremy we used to go out on on goggles [81:14] you know out in the middle Pacific [81:16] there's no light poles night-vision [81:18] goggles so we can see well you go out at [81:20] night and he'd be on like a tanker [81:21] hopper so I'm just hanging out not doing [81:23] anything driving around in circles with [81:25] the autopilot on you just turn all the [81:26] lights down in the cockpit so you have [81:27] no night light pollution and you just [81:28] look roll your head back and look up [81:30] there's billions and billions and [81:33] billions of stars out there and you know [81:35] I always look up cuz I'm like you know [81:38] are we alone and I go I look up and go [81:40] well if we're the only ones around and [81:43] that's and I'm looking everything I'm [81:44] looking at some it's a pretty sad place [81:46] it's a pretty lonely universe I asked my [81:48] astrophysics prof that once I said you [81:49] believe in extraterrestrial life and [81:51] she's like of course not and I said well [81:54] there's billions and billions of planets [81:55] you think we're it I mean just the [81:59] probability of it is you'd go other Spri [82:02] something else out there and I'm not [82:03] crazy I'm just opening up the [82:04] possibility that we are not the only [82:06] planet that has life on it I think [82:08] people don't like to seems [82:10] silly they don't like to be foolish and [82:13] I think when people start talking about [82:15] anything that's not proven or anything [82:17] that's connected to a bunch of loony [82:19] people that are making up stories which [82:20] UFOs certainly are yes UFOs are [82:23] connected to so many people that have [82:24] made up so many stories was that [82:26] gentleman's name from what you would [82:28] know that guy was from another country [82:30] Billy something or another Billy - yeah [82:33] seems a hundred percent full of [ __ ] [82:35] yeah yeah he's proven to have done tons [82:37] of hoaxes with this but here's the deal [82:39] sometimes I think people have a real [82:41] experience and they're always like [82:43] chasing that dragon and they get UFO [82:45] disease and the brain goes [ __ ] [82:46] berserk right I know that there are [82:48] people that have had profound [82:50] experiences and then they can't ever [82:52] replicate them so then they just start [82:53] going crazy and I don't blame them for [82:55] it but you got some of that command of [82:57] flavor when he saw that AAV anomalous [83:00] aerospace vehicle his reaction was I [83:03] want to fly it that's a pretty cool [83:05] reaction I'd like to fly it yeah imagine [83:07] flying that thing well that's what I [83:09] told my buddy is my XO at the time Dell [83:11] got back after all this happened he [83:13] looks I mean we're just standing right [83:15] here when he goes hey dude I go it he [83:17] goes what do you think it is I go I have [83:19] no idea but it was pretty freakin [83:21] impressive and I'd like to fly it Corps [83:23] and he goes yeah I go I mean it was it [83:25] was you know it's just like any putt you [83:28] always want to follow coolest thing [83:29] worse yeah of course you race car driver [83:31] you want to drive the fastest car that's [83:33] it now you look at and go well that's [83:35] some we don't have yeah this idea that [83:37] you know maybe we're not alone that some [83:39] of these other stars have planets that [83:41] or maybe technologically advanced so the [83:43] next thing people say and you know new [83:45] eras are going to say well they're not [83:47] coming here because the distance is so [83:48] vast hold the [ __ ] up from the very [83:51] beginning when Bob Lazar came for and [83:53] talked about field propulsion gravity [83:55] propulsion distance becomes completely [83:58] irrelevant so if we believe the and the [84:00] radars are right and commander framers [84:02] saw this thing moving like a ping-pong [84:03] ball in glass water it's gravity [84:04] propelled that's why you can make those [84:06] maneuvers without exploding okay then [84:09] distance becomes completely irrelevant [84:11] for travel [84:13] you're literally warping time and space [84:16] you're falling into place [84:17] well it's like the idea of showing [84:20] someone a video on your phone long [84:21] before video was ever invented [84:23] people like what are you talking about [84:25] like before photography was invented [84:27] which is shockingly recent right you [84:29] ought to draw pictures of things you saw [84:31] just like those people that drew or [84:33] painted that those images of those men [84:36] and whatever those things were with [84:38] Christ in the background the idea that [84:40] we could understand what some insanely [84:43] impressive technology from a planet that [84:45] is nowhere near us could could manifest [84:49] that's great it's nuts [84:51] yes but Bob Lazar talks a lot about this [84:53] remember he's a young guy right in 1989 [84:55] he gets shown something and all of a [84:58] sudden he's trying to interpret it [85:00] through 1989 technology so he said it [85:02] looks like it was injection molded [85:04] because that's what he had and then Ron [85:05] I said him this thing about [85:06] nanotechnology and you know working [85:08] towards an atomic printer he's like dude [85:10] that makes a lot more sense so he has to [85:13] view it through where he saw it in 1989 [85:15] however I will say this it is my [85:17] knowledge that we understand exactly how [85:19] these crafts work our one limiting [85:22] factor is our material science we can't [85:24] replicate not the fuel source itself is [85:27] another when you say we know exactly how [85:28] they work yeah it doesn't break our laws [85:30] of physics this concept of amplification [85:33] of gravity this concept of gravity [85:35] propulsion we understand how things can [85:38] move from point A to point B almost [85:40] instantaneously our physics doesn't [85:43] disallow it but our material science and [85:45] the fuel to create that machine that we [85:49] we have machines from other places so we [85:52] I mean well Bob Lazar whether you [85:55] believe him or not that there was a [85:57] program I have other witnesses that I [85:59] will be bringing forward about s4 where [86:02] he worked [86:02] we have cred of other witnesses that [86:04] worked with along the people that [86:06] corroborate Bob's account in that they [86:11] saw him get on and off the red and [86:13] whites the Janet flights that come on [86:14] mm-hmm somebody that went to Papoose [86:17] Lake and was stopped by non-military [86:19] guards at that time people that were [86:22] aware of sight four and et exploitation [86:26] projects one is an sr-71 pilot that I've [86:30] been talking with for a couple years so [86:31] these people are coming for now which [86:33] and it's like I'm sick and tired of [86:34] doing it these little nitpicky things [86:36] about [86:36] Bob okay there was a program there was a [86:40] back engineering program they've [86:42] admitted there are materials so this is [86:44] like the meta materials you heard about [86:45] in the New York Times all that we have [86:47] materials associated with UFOs that are [86:50] interesting what is that what are you [86:52] talking about so this was something that [86:54] was launched in the first New York Times [86:56] article I believe in December of 2017 [86:57] that there is studies being done right [86:59] now on materials associated with UFOs [87:03] right so actual metals that have come [87:05] off of you could say crashes or who is [87:08] that that explained that there was [87:10] something that they were with Eric [87:11] Weinstein that was explaining that there [87:14] was someone who reportedly has something [87:17] along those shocks ballet has 17 samples [87:19] 17 samples how does one night at 17 Sam [87:22] well he's jock [ __ ] ballet right so [87:24] he is the guy first ever for the United [87:26] States military created a computer [87:28] program for you know for the study of [87:30] UFOs for Project Blue Books he's an old [87:32] school guy they modeled him after in the [87:34] Close Encounters movie it's modeled [87:36] after Jacques Vallee the French guy so [87:38] he's kind of like been involved with [87:39] this he's had more access to government [87:41] databases than any of us he went around [87:43] collected samples from known you know [87:46] crashes or like when things will come [87:49] off and what's the conclusion well [87:51] they're studying him right now there was [87:52] just something on Fox about they're [87:54] studying some of these materials and [87:56] what they will find because I actually [87:57] the ones they're talking about I [87:58] actually took to New Mexico and had five [88:00] scientists study it about five years ago [88:03] I got my hands on it got to study it the [88:06] the famous parts they're talking about [88:07] now it's layered and the way it's [88:10] layered is what they're trying to see if [88:12] its anomalous elementally or the way [88:14] that they're the elements are bound [88:16] together and also the atomic level of [88:19] layering is what's interesting we'll [88:22] find out if we explain what you're [88:23] talking about what is this thing that [88:25] you saw okay well there is there are a [88:27] lot of different samples but when you [88:29] get a sample of something and you can [88:31] come bigger these samples the ones that [88:33] that I looked at they ranged from about [88:36] this size they were you know they range [88:39] from the size orange-y a size of an [88:42] orange to the size of a quarter these [88:44] are materials right the materials from a [88:46] crash so that's the alleged layer [88:49] there's a known crack [88:50] this is in the public domain rather than [88:52] you know government control so what we [88:55] were what I was looking at or having the [88:56] scientists look at is isotopically and [88:59] elementally what are the elements that [89:01] are in this are they engineered and [89:03] what's the conclusion well I I'm not I'm [89:06] gonna leave it to the people that are [89:07] doing it now who have much better [89:08] machines than I had a million cliffnotes [89:11] yeah they from what I understand there's [89:15] atomic layering there there are levels [89:17] of like we do with graphene we lay down [89:19] these layers that are basically oriented [89:23] at a certain degree that's how you get a [89:24] superconductor or something like that if [89:26] you take a piece of graphene and you and [89:28] it's highly machined so it's not doesn't [89:31] deviate from that atomic layering you [89:33] can push it right through ice thick hot [89:34] knife through butter so the weirdest [89:36] feeling in the world because you just [89:37] take this piece of what feels like [89:38] graphene and it goes right through [89:40] butter because it's a superconductor and [89:41] the heat from your hand melts the ice so [89:44] that that is a meta material it doesn't [89:46] occur naturally humans created it and it [89:49] has special properties because of the [89:51] way it's atomically layered so if these [89:54] materials are from somewhere else then [89:56] they're we suspect that they're going to [89:58] be highly machined that they're going to [90:00] be created for special use so my whole [90:02] point is our material science has not [90:05] caught up with the physics that we [90:07] understand for these field propulsion [90:09] systems I'm just telling you believe me [90:10] or not but you'll hear more about it [90:12] that that our material science in 1989 [90:16] and today is our limiting factor and as [90:19] our material science gets better as [90:21] humans we know how these things work now [90:24] the fuel source that's a whole nother [90:26] conversation but as far as creating [90:29] these machines that's what we're trying [90:32] to do that's why there is secrecy we're [90:33] trying to exploit the technology because [90:35] whoever exploits it first wins it's a [90:37] game changer we don't want Russia to do [90:39] it we don't want China to do it if we [90:41] had a non reactionary propulsion system [90:43] the world would look different [90:44] instantaneously what what is your [90:47] perspective after the incident versus [90:52] before the incident like how much did it [90:54] change the way you view the world and [90:56] our place in the world for me I mean I [91:00] always I never believed that we were [91:02] alone [91:03] me I just look up and go there's way too [91:05] many stars up there for us to be my own [91:06] place after it you know it makes it a [91:10] little more clear to go you know one my [91:12] questions are where to come from that's [91:15] that's the biggest one of where'd it [91:17] come from [91:17] what was it doing you know and then I've [91:21] asked why me [91:23] I mean why why did I happen to be [91:26] because you can say wrong place wrong [91:28] time right right place to see or right [91:31] place right time for me it was I think [91:34] there's more out there and if I could [91:37] get word out to anyone it's like you [91:38] know especially the debunkers of one [91:41] quit trying to debunk it because it is [91:42] what it is it wasn't a there wasn't a [91:44] system glitch this I mean this was a [91:45] real incident that happened and number [91:48] two is let's open our aperture a little [91:49] bit and start thinking outside of the [91:50] box you know if you go you know you look [91:54] at it go ahead it's it's non reactive [91:55] propulsion well it's because when we [91:57] came up with propulsion we D we you know [92:00] the people long before us came up with a [92:01] reactionary propulsion system and that [92:03] became our standard had we done [92:06] something different or we developed non [92:08] reaction we might look at something like [92:09] a gasoline engine go holy cow how's that [92:12] thing work right we wouldn't have that [92:13] idea so you know I think there's you [92:16] know if you look at it and go people [92:19] thought Einstein was kind of nuts and [92:21] we're still proving his theories today [92:23] and what we're learning is that he was [92:25] right and he was right there was a time [92:27] when the earth was flat except for some [92:28] people in California the earth isn't [92:30] flat around its people there's not an [92:34] ice wall so so when you look at that and [92:38] you go you know a lot of the stuff that [92:40] we thought was true isn't true it's [92:43] totally been changed so for me I just [92:46] say I think let's get outside of the box [92:48] and go if we can develop a technology [92:50] that would and I don't look at it from a [92:52] military standpoint because it would be [92:54] a game-changer from military standpoint [92:56] technology like that would be a [92:58] game-changer for mankind completely I [93:01] mean it would literally everything that [93:04] we do you know and we don't know exactly [93:05] you know you could you know do you want [93:07] that system in a car you know people [93:09] have trouble driving in two dimensions [93:11] let alone three right you know they you [93:14] know it's kind of like your joke last [93:16] night [93:16] the vaping thing let alone drive in a [93:18] car that goes up down works in three [93:20] dimensions or that was what they [93:22] originally wanted helicopters to be they [93:24] wanted to be flying cars yeah if you get [93:27] out on the road you see how people drive [93:28] yeah and I always laugh because people [93:31] think well we're three-dimensional like [93:32] we know that this table is not the floor [93:34] but it really humans are two-dimensional [93:35] people and you learn that especially [93:37] when we would fight if you can really [93:40] work in the third dimension which is up [93:42] and you go well we are three dimension [93:44] like I know if you look at like a tall [93:46] building is you know 1700 feet high the [93:47] big ones and you go no you know for an [93:50] f-18 to do a split us which is go from [93:52] up here and just do a vertical 180 [93:55] degree turn so you're going this way and [93:56] you go down here it's like 2500 feet [94:00] hmm and that's tight that's a tight turn [94:02] for a jet you know unless you're running [94:03] like vectored thrust stuff but there's [94:05] everything has a cost so if you do some [94:07] big high akka you bleed off energy [94:09] there's a cost associated that that to a [94:11] pilot that's three dimensions to most [94:13] people on earth you go no I'm you know I [94:16] look at a hill and god I want to walk up [94:17] that thing Rio and in an airplane it's [94:19] it's a totally different thing so if we [94:21] just open up that expanse you know for [94:23] what we're trying to do for technology [94:24] and go is there another way because we [94:26] still build we still build suckers and [94:29] blowers which is a jet engine [94:31] we just refined the internals the [94:33] turbines to get them to be more [94:34] efficient where I go I don't you just [94:37] put your efforts at someplace else like [94:39] I was talking to there's a whole realm [94:42] of physics that really doesn't get [94:43] explained and it's I was talking to [94:46] Steve Justus about it it's more into the [94:47] magnetics type side that we don't we [94:53] don't spend a lot of time on and I know [94:54] he said when he was working at skunk [94:55] works he did it's not a good call I read [94:58] internal research and development money [94:59] that he would fund to try and look at [95:02] some of these other technologies for [95:04] propulsion and you know he's now since [95:07] retired but really impressive to talk to [95:09] him at the level that you can which is [95:12] you know for us would be an unclassified [95:13] level but you know the stuff that goes [95:16] on behind closed doors there's reasons [95:17] for it you know because if a technology [95:21] like that got out where someone could [95:22] rapidly reproduce it after all you've [95:23] done you know or they got it first do [95:26] you think of the atomic bomb you know [95:28] Germans almost had it [95:29] Russians were working on it we got it [95:31] first changed the world [95:34] literally changed the world when we [95:36] detonated the first one and you go I'm [95:38] not gonna get into the politics behind [95:39] it but now we had it and now it was the [95:42] race everyone else because they had to [95:44] get on equal part because it's a [95:45] destabilizing thing and novice side if [95:46] you develop a technology like this and [95:49] you keep it to yourself you've got [95:51] something that no one else has and it's [95:53] a huge leap I mean it's a quantum leap [95:57] do you do you share it because it's a [96:01] mankind thing or do you keep it for [96:04] yourself you know and that's right now [96:06] it's not for me to decide I'm just Dave [96:07] well it's fascinating that some other [96:11] method of propulsion could have been [96:14] established in some other place and that [96:17] we're experiencing or that you've [96:19] experienced it and some other folks have [96:21] experienced it in action and I just [96:26] think for us as people as human beings [96:29] in 2019 it's really easy to think that [96:32] what we have now is so amazing and that [96:37] what we have now is the pinnacle of [96:38] discovery and then what we have now is [96:40] you know with our electricity and with [96:43] our LED screens and that we are [96:46] experiencing like the height of [96:48] Technology when if you're some creature [96:51] from some other planet that has got easy [96:55] access to element 115 and some gravity [96:58] propulsion system you're looking at us [96:59] like we're digging holes in the side of [97:01] a mountain to protect ourself in the [97:03] rain we're a cave people yes yeah what [97:06] we do that here on earth yeah I mean you [97:08] look at like a first world you know like [97:10] a United store you know these are the [97:11] [ __ ] of developed nations I need to go [97:13] to Sammy's other and go you know people [97:15] are still getting their water out of a [97:16] hole in the ground with a bucket right [97:18] or people in the rainforests are living [97:20] these indigenous lifestyles yeah so you [97:24] know take them something take them one [97:25] of these flat screens down in one of [97:27] these tribes that no one's ever seen and [97:29] go hey yeah and start showing them [97:30] pictures of themself that you're [97:31] shooting real-time or video that's [97:33] feeding directly into it they'll freak [97:35] out don't think I would you capture my [97:36] soul right so it's it's where we add [97:40] more are we gonna do and what can we do [97:42] did it change the way you look [97:43] life I mean even though you knew that or [97:46] you had this feeling that we were not [97:48] alone just from looking at the Stars and [97:50] but when you actually see the thing like [97:52] how I mean I would imagine that that has [97:56] got to really shift your perspective [97:58] well if it shifted my perspective but it [98:01] was more of a it's a validation a [98:04] confirmation ago you go yeah you know [98:07] I've always like yeah there's a lot of [98:08] stars and then you see something like [98:09] this and go well maybe we're not because [98:11] that that pushes you to the next point [98:13] to go you know you know one lands in my [98:16] front yard then I'll be 100% sure that [98:19] we are not alone because it's sitting in [98:20] my front yard but I mean I got within a [98:22] half mile of this thing which is people [98:25] go I have miles pretty far away I got [98:27] not when you're flying an airplane [98:28] half-mile is like really tight when they [98:30] bring you in to have these conversations [98:31] with high-level government officials how [98:34] long these conversations so I went to [98:36] the I've been down I've talked to three [98:39] different groups of people this is post [98:42] The Times article so the New York time [98:45] article comes out in 2017 yes and then [98:48] our compliment the other pilot that was [98:52] involved had been to DC multiple times [98:55] this is how our kinda I got in touch [98:56] with Lou she had called me and said hey [99:00] I need to talk to you so I called her [99:03] and I said what's going on she says hey [99:04] have you been there's anyone called you [99:05] about the tic-tac and I said no she goes [99:07] you know I'm gonna the Pentagon like a [99:09] half dozen times and they'll take me in [99:11] and anywhere from Starbucks to you know [99:13] inside of a vault and she goes and [99:15] they'll talk to me about the story and [99:16] they'll show me a picture something goes [99:17] to look like this and then she gets [99:19] pretty frustrating goes it we called the [99:20] tic-tac because it looked like a tic-tac [99:22] what part don't you get I mean go get up [99:24] thing at Tic Tacs and look at when [99:25] they're saying did it look like this [99:26] they showing her something laughs that [99:28] they have no not pictures that they have [99:31] but like a video from someone else like [99:33] they'd show the gimble video like this [99:35] okay and it was no so and that's when I [99:38] told her I said well just just tell this [99:40] guy that you're talking to just give my [99:41] name and number I go I'll talk to him [99:43] it's not a big deal to me you know and [99:45] that started so when we I got asked you [99:48] know multiple times to go down and talk [99:49] to two people one of them was supposed [99:51] to be 20 minutes and these you know [99:53] these are important people get in 20 [99:54] minutes as some of these folks time is [99:56] that's a huge deal so we went in [99:58] thinking okay we're gonna do the thing [100:00] 20 minutes and then we're in and and an [100:03] hour and a half later we came out I mean [100:05] that's the interest of you know and [100:08] there were some Pino you get the group [100:09] you know the folks that come in and out [100:11] but there's a few that just sat there [100:13] and were enamored by what we were saying [100:15] like you're you joke and we're like no [100:17] this is this is all real I mean these [100:19] are these are pre senior officials that [100:23] are taking the time out of their day to [100:25] take this serious to go you know maybe [100:27] we do need to put a little emphasis on [100:28] this I mean literally if some can just [100:32] show up at will and do whatever it wants [100:34] and I'd probably at least pay attention [100:36] yeah pay attention but what could be [100:38] done I mean what could they do if you [100:40] put yourself in a position of one of [100:42] these high-level government officials [100:43] what do you do just spend more money on [100:45] looking at them now if you look at money [100:47] though I mean I know when the article [100:48] came out and they talked about the a tip [100:49] program that Harry Reid got funded 22 [100:51] million dollars over five years yeah [100:53] point four million dollars a year and [100:55] you go and one's freaking out oh it's 22 [100:57] million I know I wasn't 22 million [100:58] dollars a year [100:59] it was 4.4 million that's not even in [101:00] the rounding error for the United States [101:02] we just gotta prove what it was seven [101:04] hundred and fifty billion dollars for a [101:06] defense budget seven hundred and fifty [101:08] billion if it took a hundred million out [101:12] of that it's not even gonna put a dent [101:13] and I go why can't you know if you're if [101:16] you're only spending four or four point [101:17] four million dollars a year and you can [101:18] actually get some good work done because [101:19] you don't need a huge team because you [101:21] figure if you look and I think I think [101:24] what's the number like ten fifteen [101:26] percent of all these UFOs like you would [101:28] you look at Project Blue Book really [101:29] remained unexplained and you go okay so [101:31] you can weed out you know you can read [101:33] out me flying over someone in a campfire [101:35] in like my afterburners so you know that [101:38] was Dave being Dave so you can weed that [101:41] stuff out now you go now I'm really kind [101:43] of concentrating the funds the most [101:44] important thing and I talked to the [101:46] folks one that we were talking we talked [101:47] about funding and I said let me leave [101:49] you with this and I had got some pretty [101:52] good stuff I was talking to Chris Mellon [101:53] who's a former undersecretary and [101:55] understands how the government works so [101:56] is where he gave me some really good [101:57] feedback and I said I talked to I said [101:59] look I'm all for you guys funding a [102:01] program but what you need to do is find [102:03] a program that there's going to be [102:04] oversight over when I say oversight I [102:06] mean because what happens is you go [102:08] here's money but we're going to [102:09] distribute in the government [102:10] so we're gonna distribute it to these [102:11] three different agencies across the [102:13] United States government you know I [102:14] don't just call them agency a B and C so [102:17] you give it to them [102:17] you know and I'll go back to like the [102:20] 9/11 stuff where we've really had the [102:22] answer but all the agencies weren't [102:24] talking to each other to put all the [102:25] pieces together and that's my fear that [102:26] you go hey we're gonna take a hundred [102:28] million dollars of taxpayer money we're [102:29] going to fund a program to actually [102:31] seriously investigate this stuff and [102:32] look at the technology but there are [102:34] three different entities working on [102:35] their own and not talking to each other [102:37] so there's got to be a joint [102:38] collaborations we go we're gonna do it [102:41] but you know Joe's going to be in charge [102:44] and you guys are all gonna play nice in [102:46] the sandbox together because we want to [102:48] get our money's worth because people [102:50] pull raise the the fraud waste and abuse [102:52] flag that we're wasting money on [102:54] something stupid now the gimble video [102:56] shows a different kind of thing [102:59] yes how many different kinds of things [103:02] are you aware of well those are ours too [103:06] if you look at the go-fast it kind of [103:08] looks like a tic tac so you could say [103:10] those two are the same [103:11] yeah I think there's other stuff out [103:14] there you know and sometimes it's not [103:16] that the you got to look at where do you [103:19] obtain the video it's just like [103:21] intelligence you know and I'll use [103:22] because I had no you got that picture of [103:24] Pablo out there you know and there was [103:25] the guy Tom Cruise made the movie about [103:27] him what's his name Louisiana due to his [103:29] flying the drugs for Pablo in and out [103:31] Barry seal Barry seal you know hey it [103:33] was all great until Reagan posted that [103:36] picture that they had the cameras inside [103:38] the cargo plane and then Pablo puts it [103:40] there the only place that picture came [103:41] from is Barry seals airplane you know [103:44] and then now Barry seals a dead man so [103:46] you got to watch when you release [103:47] because you go hey we got this video but [103:49] it was taken someplace we probably [103:50] weren't supposed to be or how did they [103:52] get that video right like I look the [103:55] video of the tic-tac video that thing [103:58] first came out is kind of funny the guy [104:02] that was in my backseat had sent me an [104:03] email and this is about probably 2008 so [104:07] I was retired and he sent me this video [104:10] guys say skipper's look familiar [104:11] and it was on strange land calm but not [104:14] suitable for work just say that but I [104:16] look and then next thing you know it's [104:17] on YouTube so when I would tell this [104:19] story to my friends I would go I'd send [104:21] them a link to the YouTube video and [104:23] this is [104:23] years before the New York Times article [104:24] and then when they did the unofficial [104:26] official report the you the video was [104:29] taken down off of YouTube and you know [104:31] it kind of puzzled me like why'd you [104:32] take the video down and I told the guys [104:34] when they did the unofficial official [104:35] products that way you really need to [104:36] look as how did this thing come off of a [104:37] classified Drive system on an aircraft [104:39] carrier and end up on strange land calm [104:41] in YouTube because at the time the [104:43] videos were classified secret and that's [104:46] not because it was a UFO it's the the 80 [104:48] Flair video what they did not want that [104:50] released so you'd see it on CNN they [104:51] blocked out all the performance stuff [104:53] what the airplane was actually doing in [104:54] this case you know the one you see it's [104:55] 250 knots of the autopilot on so it's [104:57] not that big of a deal but you know [104:59] Jeremy how many different types of [105:02] vehicles are you aware of that have been [105:05] reported credible reports for decades [105:08] hundreds of different shapes even Lazar [105:11] himself said he saw you know nine [105:13] different styles all working off the [105:15] same propulsion system the tic-tock [105:17] shape you know vehicle that that goes [105:20] back in history some people say cigar [105:22] shaped you know big ships small ships we [105:25] you know they're all different kinds I [105:26] think it's important to state though [105:28] there are other funded government-funded [105:31] UFO programs it's a misnomer actually [105:33] that a tip was the recipient of the 22 [105:36] million dollars it was actually harry [105:38] reid created a program called AUSA [105:40] awesome was the sole beneficiary of that [105:42] 22 million new york times got it wrong [105:44] and then what happened is a tip was a [105:47] different funded program to study [105:49] military encounters with UFOs aw snap [105:53] was created because of skinwalker ranch [105:55] a government program to study UFOs and [105:57] associated phenomenon a tip and awe sup [106:00] communicated and shared information but [106:03] they were independently funded so the 22 [106:06] million dollars was for OSAP and then a [106:08] tip had its own sources and then they [106:11] did collaborate to UFO programs there [106:13] are more that I think we're gonna learn [106:15] about so the different shapes that bob [106:19] lazar saw there was nine different [106:22] shapes that he saw yes there's only one [106:26] up close yeah and none of them were like [106:29] to tic-tac not specifically however [106:32] that's not an uncommon if you go back in [106:33] history of like military sightings of [106:35] craft going [106:36] over 20,000 miles an hour the tick-tock [106:38] is a shape they have triangles they have [106:40] ones that look like rectangles the thing [106:42] that is common with all of them is the [106:45] non reactionary propulsion system I [106:47] think even command a favor said the [106:48] thing noticed him was words he first [106:50] said to me and and kind of went towards [106:53] him with its nose but it could move in [106:55] any direction right I mean it could just [106:57] move that will however it was when we [106:58] first thought it was just basically it [107:00] never turned it was just going left [107:01] right you know kind of doing this she [107:02] probably doesn't matter and then it [107:05] became aware because it turned and it [107:06] actually mirrored what I was doing when [107:07] I was coming down it came up and you [107:09] know so it was obviously knew we were [107:11] there and I don't know if it was picking [107:12] up you know energy coming off the [107:13] airplane or what you know I do know that [107:16] when they tried to lock it it actively [107:17] you know it jammed a radar made it [107:19] pretty much useless and you know Chad [107:21] was pretty good about kicking it over [107:23] and grabbing that video so it's pretty [107:28] wild it's a big deal to actively jab a [107:31] radar virus you know yeah it's um you [107:35] know whenever someone tells you an [107:37] awesome story it's great to hear but god [107:40] I wish I saw it myself you know yes but [107:43] you got thing that's yeah you're like [107:45] you're telling me and I'm like wow I'm [107:47] listening I'm trying to imagine I'm [107:50] putting it in my head I'm I'm I'm [107:51] visualizing it but damn I wish I could [107:54] see it yeah I said this to a guy where [107:56] he's he's pretty proud I don't say who [107:58] it was or what his position was he's [108:00] pretty prominent in the UFO community [108:01] I'm not really a UFO guy and he starts [108:04] quoting like Jeremy can't quote event so [108:06] this was this dis event that event that [108:08] of it and it keeps looking he goes what [108:09] do you know about this event I go nope [108:11] and he goes what about this event I go [108:13] nope he gets like three of them and I [108:16] look at him and he goes well you're not [108:17] UFO guy I go no but I chase what have [108:21] you he goes no I go I'm an expert you're [108:26] the kind of school he kind of got [108:27] deflated a little bit he because he [108:29] looked at me like you suck well it's [108:31] like people that are into baseball stats [108:33] but they've never played yeah yeah you [108:36] know you gotta get got your hands dirty [108:38] get out in the few I'm with you Joe like [108:40] I wish I had seen you I've been so [108:41] curious about the propulsion system [108:42] since lazar and I wish I could see [108:44] something too oh my god yeah I would [108:47] give so much I'd almost think about [108:50] for president just to win just so I [108:52] could get in and find out about you [108:53] everybody's track and then go I quit [108:55] [ __ ] everybody Clinton tried he tried [108:59] to eat yo big time that was his that he [109:01] came in he said first thing he webster [109:03] hubbell he said i want to know two [109:05] things who killed JFK and i want to know [109:07] all about UFOs and they were he was [109:09] denied access and he later said it's not [109:11] the first time I've been lied to her [109:13] denied information after asking for it [109:15] Bill Clinton said that [109:16] additionally Jimmy Carter he said before [109:18] he was president I'm gonna find out well [109:20] Jimmy Carter supposedly saw you know he [109:22] did he said I'm gonna find out I'm gonna [109:24] tell you never talked about it again [109:26] afterwards after he became president [109:27] wonder what his briefing looked like you [109:29] know and then so many presidents have [109:31] tried because they're like us man [109:33] they're curious mm-hmm however this [109:35] information from my understanding which [109:37] is an informed understanding is so [109:39] compartmentalized you know that makes [109:42] sense [109:43] listen is anything else just one thing I [109:46] want to make sure to brief you on storm [109:48] because I still blame you for it a [109:49] little bit no idea can I just give you a [109:53] quick break now okay so check this out [109:55] I made a movie Bob Lazar Air Force One [109:57] and flying saucers Joe blows it up I go [109:59] on a show with Bob Lazar which was [110:01] awesome thanks for letting Bob tell [110:03] everybody what happened and then the [110:06] world lit on fire [110:07] now from a sociological pop-culture [110:10] standpoint what happened on that day is [110:12] huge and I don't want it to be missed on [110:14] anybody so a kid watches your podcast [110:16] watches the movie puts up this Facebook [110:18] page Stormare 51 oh my god that's a big [110:21] problem right so I ended up talking to [110:23] the kid and all this and helping trying [110:25] to help him navigate kid went left he [110:27] should have gone straight anyway vent [110:29] went down Rachel Nevada where area 51 is [110:33] where the access points go up we all [110:36] went out there right but really Rachel [110:38] nobody wanted people to come it's a town [110:40] of fifty two people one business the the [110:44] residence I live in Pioneer Tom Coburn [110:45] it's tiny you don't want your whole town [110:47] taken over by potentially dangerous [110:50] millions of people that are signing up [110:51] for this on on Facebook right so it's [110:53] this huge phenomenon that happened [110:55] because of going on what happened so [110:57] here's what actually happened because [110:59] the media has completely lied to you [111:01] they said 150 people showed yeah it's a [111:03] total fabrication [111:04] the footage to prove it we had an event [111:06] in we I participated in an event in [111:09] heiko Nevada which is safely 50 miles [111:12] away from you know Rachel where they [111:13] didn't want us and on the fly 3,000 plus [111:18] it's me it's a huge win three thousand [111:22] plus people even though they were scared [111:24] to come because they were told to be [111:25] scared to come out there that it's gonna [111:27] be a riot okay and they peacefully [111:29] assembled and enjoyed this thing I had [111:32] but what what happened there was nothing [111:35] they just got together 3,000 people yeah [111:37] but everybody came with the idea that [111:39] they're curious about this it engaged a [111:41] whole new audience of people we had Dave [111:43] Foley talked we had Paul Oakenfold some [111:46] famous people talked the phone setup [111:49] yeah we had a I set it up I brought in [111:51] speakers right I brought in speak Dave [111:53] did you avoid this yeah I'm you know I'm [111:57] a military guy not forming a government [111:58] that's about the stones go that's like [112:02] jumped the White House fence I'm like [112:04] are you black that's the dumbest idea on [112:06] the planet yeah I didn't understand the [112:08] benefit of getting all those people [112:10] together no no people were going and so [112:12] my point was well let's at least bring [112:14] people who can talk about it and and [112:16] have a civilized fun time and see what [112:18] people want to do so my point is it's [112:20] amazing anybody came out to begin with [112:22] and nobody went crazy so what is the 150 [112:24] people that were reported where they may [112:26] be at the gate itself to go so that's [112:28] probably what it happened and someone [112:30] like you didn't come along and organize [112:31] something else yeah I didn't organize it [112:33] but I definitely advocated for safety [112:35] and and it worked and and it was a [112:36] success so they just got together and [112:38] talked 3,000 people got together and [112:40] talked well it was spread out all [112:41] throughout like people didn't Rachel the [112:42] community didn't want people there was [112:43] an event there though and the in heiko [112:45] where I was was the event with the stage [112:47] and the fun stuff we all did George [112:48] Knapp was was there as well how did you [112:50] promote this well they did the event [112:52] they promote it because people are [112:54] already coming didn't promote it on [112:55] social media sure I said if you're gonna [112:58] go somewhere that's where I'm gonna be [112:59] and it's gonna be safe and sane my point [113:01] is this you have so many people that are [113:03] curious now and don't underestimate what [113:06] happened on when someone watched your [113:08] podcast and that happened boom you've [113:10] got all these new people who are [113:11] interested in it and I think that's [113:13] important because this UFO phenomenon is [113:16] real you've got [113:17] fighter pilots that engage them it [113:19] represents a non reactionary propulsion [113:21] system and that's a physics that would [113:23] change the world [113:24] so the more people that come together [113:25] and say we're interested the louder the [113:27] voice we got I think it's cool when I [113:29] had some alien Budweiser great well I [113:31] don't know if there's really any benefit [113:33] to people physically getting together [113:34] but I do think that there's a lot of [113:37] benefit I'm glad you had a good time but [113:39] I just think there's a lot of benefit to [113:41] this discussion and and I really think [113:45] there's a lot of benefit to hearing the [113:46] stories from people like you because [113:49] that's the only thing that matters to me [113:50] when it's like I need to know the person [113:54] who's telling me the story isn't full of [113:55] [ __ ] so when I get it from someone like [113:57] you [113:57] I really really appreciate it so um [113:59] that's it thanks for being here thanks [114:02] for telling your story thanks for having [114:04] thanks for being you thank you Jeremy [114:05] for setting us up and thanks for your [114:07] documentary on bob lazar which really [114:09] like [ __ ] turned me around [114:10] that was the one all right that's it bye [114:13] everybody [114:20] [Music]