Valve Skin Economy Fuels Offshore Casinos and Pro Esports Teams

Valve皮肤经济催生离岸赌场与职业电竞战队 不受监管的皮肤交易使离岸博彩平台得以诱导未成年玩家，并资助职业《反恐精英》战队，若无Valve直接干预，市场改革将无法实现。 该纪录片调查了规模达数十亿美元的《反恐精英》皮肤博彩地下链条，追溯了Valve无门槛的开箱机制如何成为进入故意省略前期KYC核验的离岸无监管赌场的首要入口。Coffeezilla当面质询了年收入高达500万美元的顶流博彩创作者，拆解了他们的道德辩解，并强调他们在将年轻受众引向HypeDrop等掠夺性奖励机制中所起的作用。调查显示，观看时长排名前列的CS主播中约有75%，以及多个梯队的电竞赛事组织，均依赖博彩业的巨额资金维持生存，这造成了一种囚徒困境，使得坚守道德准则的参与者在经济上处于竞争劣势。最终，调查得出结论：如果不追究Valve作为从整个数字皮肤经济中获利的核心把关者的责任，仅针对个人的道德谴责收效甚微。 一项针对9000多名玩家的调查显示，约70%的《反恐精英》赌客在未成年时就已涉赌，这一现象受到无需年龄验证的开箱机制以及不进行前期KYC的离岸网站的推动。 (0:00) 主要皮肤博彩业务产生着惊人的收入，Clash的联合创始人报告每月收入约为5000万美元，且相关网站的总流量几乎是全球最大持牌在线赌场的两倍。 (7:00) 按观看时长计算的前300名《反恐精英》主播中，约有75%获得了博彩平台的赞助，Grim和Juicy等知名创作者透露各自税前年收入约为500万美元。 (28:31) 电竞战队面临着结构性困境：博彩赞助商支付的费用是传统品牌的5至6倍，如果没有皮肤赌场的支持，二线《反恐精英》战队在竞技和财务上均难以为继。 (30:56)

[0:00] they have made millions and millions of [0:03] Euros I'm going to be delivering Justice [0:06] to these mother I get told that they had [0:09] posted Flyers everywhere in my city and [0:12] I mean everywhere high schools malls [0:14] they need to go in even if there's a [0:16] security guard even if they're going to [0:17] be taken away if somebody goes home [0:19] walking they will be fired they sent 18 [0:22] people outside my door having a quote [0:25] unquote protest we are having war with [0:28] other sides as well most of the Cs go [0:30] gambling sites are scams I want to know [0:33] who's really behind this thing who's [0:35] really the victims and who's really the [0:40] villain in our last video we got bribed [0:42] but instead of taking it we exposed the [0:44] people who offered it now it's time to [0:46] expose the rest of the Counter-Strike [0:48] gambling industry and the influencers [0:50] who promote it for Millions a year let's [0:53] start with the basics of what [0:54] Counter-Strike gambling really is though [0:56] Counter-Strike is a first-person shooter [0:58] video game where you can buy C medic [1:00] options for your guns called skins you [1:03] can get these by paying $2.50 to open a [1:05] loot box it spins like a slot machine [1:08] and you get a random skin there's an [1:10] entire economy that's grown out of their [1:12] Rarity and you can sell these skins for [1:14] pennies or up to tens of thousands of [1:16] dollars depending on their Rarity you [1:18] can then take those skins to [1:19] Counterstrike casinos where they will be [1:22] accepted as currency instead of cash [1:25] they use their real world value to turn [1:27] this video game into Vegas you can play [1:29] slots roulette and more all with a video [1:32] game skin think of it like their version [1:34] of poker chips and when I first began to [1:37] investigate this I thought why don't [1:39] people just use a regular Casino you [1:41] know why use Counterstrike skins for [1:44] this well I decided to investigate by [1:47] interviewing a bunch of people who do [1:49] use Counter-Strike casinos and I found a [1:51] disturbing Trend I've been in the [1:53] gambling community in Counter Strike for [1:55] about I'd say since 12 years old I [1:59] started gambling on Counter Strike when [2:00] I was probably 13 years old 13 years old [2:03] 14 years old I think I was 14 started [2:06] gambling on csgo at the age of 12 and 13 [2:08] pretty much right around there my 13th [2:10] birthday yeah most of the people I spoke [2:12] to started gambling underage and it was [2:15] while they were playing the game and [2:17] this trend continues beyond the [2:19] anecdotal this YouTuber named Jeff [2:22] surveyed over 9,000 players and he found [2:24] that around 70% of Counter-Strike [2:26] gamblers start underage now themed [2:29] casinos have always had an audience but [2:31] with Counterstrike there is an underage [2:34] gateway to all of this because all you [2:36] need is $2.50 to get your first skin [2:38] through valve and you don't even need to [2:40] show ID which is a huge part of this [2:43] even worse when you go from the game to [2:44] the casinos which are hosted on third [2:47] party websites most don't ID the players [2:49] either or if they do it's only after [2:52] you've already gambled thousands of [2:53] dollars which is a bit like if a liquor [2:54] store asked for ID after you drank 10 [2:57] bottles of liquor it's obviously absurd [3:00] but it's also very profitable because [3:02] underage gamblers not only are new [3:04] customers they're way more likely to [3:06] become gambling addicts which is how [3:08] casinos make most of their money these [3:11] days most physical casinos have a strict [3:14] ID policy at the door this isn't because [3:17] they're good people it's because they're [3:18] heavily regulated and would lose their [3:20] Gambling License if they knowingly [3:22] allowed underage players but [3:24] Counter-Strike gambling is fundamentally [3:26] different regulation for these casinos [3:28] is almost non-existent because they're [3:30] offshore in Malta kurau Cypress and most [3:33] of them are using loopholes to pretend [3:35] that this isn't even gambling at all [3:37] look I'm not going to go into too much [3:38] detail here because different casinos [3:40] use different loopholes but suffice to [3:43] say this has been going on a long time [3:46] back in 2016 a very similar story broke [3:49] in a big way about scam casinos and [3:51] underage gambling problems in [3:53] Counterstrike and everyone was [3:55] understandably enraged valve even got [3:57] involved had to send out cease and [3:58] assist letters even the f DC went after [4:00] influencers but when the dust settled [4:02] there weren't that many Consequences [4:04] part of the reason was because of these [4:06] loopholes in fact the most infamous [4:08] Casino csgo Lotto claimed not even to be [4:11] a casino at all they said they were a [4:12] sweep Stakes now this is obviously [4:15] absurd it's not true but none of that [4:17] matters because it got them out of [4:19] trouble and so the same types of casinos [4:21] have continued just with new owners and [4:24] new names what you're left with then is [4:26] an industry that is unregulated if [4:29] anything self-regulated which I [4:31] discovered creates its own race to the [4:33] bottom problem because consumer [4:35] protection in an unregulated Market will [4:38] literally drive away your customers for [4:40] example remember Monarch from the last [4:43] video and his Casino csgo Empire one of [4:46] the things they do that I actually think [4:48] is good is they block certain IPS where [4:51] gambling is illegal and they admit that [4:53] what they're doing is gambling now you [4:55] can easily get around these Geor [4:57] restrictions with a VPN but it's sort of [4:59] of an extra hurdle most Counter-Strike [5:02] casinos don't even do this and listen to [5:04] One Gambler explain why this tiny [5:07] decision to just geoblock one region the [5:10] US affected who he chose to gamble with [5:13] so when I went onto Empire while it's [5:15] still easy to bypass it you could just [5:17] put a VPN just takes an extra 5 minutes [5:19] CS roll I can just once again type it [5:22] into my browser um deposits oh you're an [5:26] American yes correct yes so no no no no [5:30] um VPN restriction no GE blocking yes [5:34] correct so unrolled zero VPN blocking [5:37] zero any bypassing on Empire there is [5:39] blocking but it it truthfully is very [5:43] easy to bypass right that makes sense [5:46] most people end up going with the casino [5:48] who asks them less questions requires [5:50] less from you even if you're not [5:52] illegally trying to gamble you just [5:54] don't want to have to put in personal [5:56] information anything like that this all [5:59] taught me that in the world of [6:00] unregulated gambling it's more [6:02] complicated than just saying okay [6:04] casinos want toddlers gambling it's also [6:07] market dynamics right you get a [6:09] Competitive Edge by not regulating less [6:12] work more customers more money which [6:14] means you can't just solve the problem [6:17] by wagging your finger at bad casinos [6:20] the entire system is broken as long as [6:22] these loopholes exist why would anyone [6:25] change in fact some websites like [6:29] adverti their lack of Regulation as a [6:31] feature not a bug the CEO even bragged [6:34] on Twitter quote Clash just paid out its [6:36] biggest one-time Cash Out instantly with [6:39] no verification couldn't be more happy [6:41] with the product and reputation we are [6:43] building this guy sees it as a badge of [6:45] honor to do no checks and it is a [6:48] positive reputation if you want to [6:50] appeal to underage players money [6:53] launderers or just people who want to [6:54] avoid a hassle a VPN and putting in an [6:57] ID and this is all a huge problem [7:00] but how big of a problem is it you might [7:03] wonder after all we're talking about [7:05] video game skins how much money could [7:07] this industry really be worth I wondered [7:09] the same thing so I asked around for how [7:12] much these casinos are making and got [7:14] several estimates one owner claims he [7:16] has an eight fig business and someone [7:18] who worked for his partner claims that [7:19] is true how much does he make on Clash [7:22] his partner Boris right um also known as [7:24] dogs playing poker friendly chemist he [7:27] told me directly that it was making [7:28] about 50 Mill million a month that's a [7:31] lot of money and this roughly matches [7:33] what the popular gambling Counter-Strike [7:35] YouTuber told me as well saying he'd [7:37] estimate these sites are making tens of [7:39] millions monthly and there are so many [7:41] of these sites that the YouTuber Jeff [7:43] estimated it all in a different way [7:45] looking at the total amount of website [7:47] traffic compared to a popular online [7:49] casino so when you bring them together [7:51] those csgo websites bring almost double [7:54] the traffic of the biggest online casino [7:56] today and this online casino declared a [7:58] gross revenue of 2.6 billions in 2022 [8:01] now that doesn't mean the csgo websites [8:03] are grossing more but it's a great [8:05] element to put things in perspective so [8:07] even though it's tough getting an exact [8:09] number since these casinos might [8:11] overestimate or underestimate for many [8:13] reasons either way it's clear these [8:15] businesses are making huge amounts of [8:18] money and there's many of these casinos [8:21] we've just focused on a few in our [8:22] videos but there's so many more of these [8:24] websites each potentially making [8:26] millions a month and no one's going to [8:29] change their behavior until they're [8:30] incentivized to by regulation across the [8:33] board until then less regulation will [8:36] always mean a wider customer base even [8:38] if some of those customers are underage [8:40] the irony here being the biggest voice [8:43] of change so far really has been Monarch [8:48] from the last video you guys know I no [8:50] fan of this guy's methods but I'll be [8:53] honest there's large parts of his public [8:55] arguments that are hard to argue with he [8:57] claims to understand the underage [8:59] problem because that's how he started as [9:01] well how I got into gambling myself was [9:04] when I was 13 and I was playing [9:06] Roomscape and how the Dual Arena was [9:10] like a Gateway druck for me that's how [9:13] that's how gambling started for me and [9:15] that's where it went in third party [9:16] sites I'm just disgusted about this full [9:19] loop I think that the the full case case [9:22] system on on Steam is pretty horrible [9:25] the way how there is no kyc there's uh [9:29] it's such a powerful tool for getting [9:33] children and even adults I think even [9:35] adults they have a gambling problem it's [9:37] not only like a it's not a age exclusive [9:42] thing it's just a machine that makes [9:44] people gamble imagine there's a kid who [9:48] just plays CSO and they open one one box [9:51] pretty innocent they get their mom's [9:53] credit card they spent €2 to open a box [9:56] okay then they open a second box third [9:57] box fourth box and so on and soon they [10:01] see their favorite influencer playing on [10:04] some third party case opening site and [10:08] this is where it's like it's like [10:11] switching from from weed straight to I [10:15] don't know amphetamine or something and [10:17] they just go deeper and deeper into this [10:19] Rabbid hole and soon they are [10:21] addicted and the next thing you know [10:24] when they want to stop gambling it's [10:27] easy to easy to just shut like close [10:29] post these websites but what happens [10:31] when you go on social media you you go [10:34] on YouTube Instagram twitch Tik Tok any [10:37] platform what do you get you get [10:40] gambling ads everywhere the algorithm [10:42] starts feeding you it's like imagine you [10:45] are addicted to heroine and then [10:47] everywhere you go you just see like [10:48] heroine heroin heroine here look your [10:51] hero is staying heroine so we have to [10:54] separate these two things out yes this [10:57] guy's methods are terrible but I'll [10:59] admit it's nice to see a casino owner [11:02] talking honestly about their industry [11:03] and admitting that what it is is [11:05] gambling and not some kind of sweep Stak [11:08] but even if Monarch says he wants to [11:10] change without the actual power of a [11:12] regulator he just ends up having to [11:15] harass people threaten people which [11:16] isn't going to get him anywhere not only [11:18] that he's no saint either his own [11:20] website doesn't ID people right away [11:23] according to csgo's Empire's terms they [11:25] only require you to verify your age if [11:28] you want to withdraw more than 2,000 [11:29] coins in crypto or deposit substantial [11:32] amounts of money if you withdraw via [11:34] skins there is no limit so even the guy [11:38] who claims he started underage gambling [11:40] he understands the gateway drug that [11:43] skin Bing websites act as even he [11:46] refuses to fully ID customers because he [11:49] knows he'd go out of business I'm really [11:51] committed to I want to make it strict or [11:53] strictor like you can't jump to the deep [11:56] end just like immediately on on one day [11:59] that would make us go out of out of [12:00] business but really my my end goal is I [12:03] want to do full full clone kyc before [12:05] anybody deposits I want to make it as [12:07] clean as possible this more than [12:09] anything shows the limit to the let's [12:12] self-regulate idea right even the [12:15] biggest critic of underage gambling [12:17] can't bring himself to actually ID his [12:20] customers up front because his [12:22] competitors won't do it and he says it [12:23] would ruin his business so maybe the [12:26] solution isn't with the casinos at all [12:30] maybe it's a good time to talk about the [12:32] influencers who promoted instead because [12:35] when I learned and asked about people [12:37] who got into this type of gambling I [12:40] wondered how did they get into it in the [12:42] first place who did they hear about it [12:44] from and one thing kept popping up one [12:46] of the primary ways I actually learned [12:48] was through YouTube popped up in my [12:50] recommended page because I was a big fan [12:51] of Counterstrike I'd play it you know in [12:53] my free time some gambling videos popped [12:55] up and I thought hey you know streamers [12:58] um kind of exposed me to that to that [13:01] space first I saw it online I saw a [13:03] bunch of these YouTubers um playing it [13:05] found out CSO gambling just pretty much [13:08] through watching people on Twitch and [13:09] YouTube juicy was one of them I actually [13:11] remember very vividly he was this guy [13:13] that would do all these case openings on [13:15] different websites and such he was very [13:17] much affiliated with them he had codes [13:19] and all these things I've been [13:20] surrounded by like syndicut and like [13:23] FaZe Clan for example I watched uh my [13:27] favorite YouTubers right YouTubers and [13:29] streamers of course are going to be one [13:31] of the main advertising vectors it's [13:34] been that way since 2016 influencers are [13:37] the main lifeblood of these casinos fast [13:40] forward 8 years later it's just [13:42] different influencers different casinos [13:44] making the money than before but unlike [13:46] casinos who we know intuitively are [13:48] blood sucking leeches on society [13:50] influencers by contrast [13:53] are they're [13:55] um uh well we expect more from them I we [13:59] don't get it but we expect more so I [14:02] wanted to confront three different [14:04] influencers who do this gambling [14:06] streaming stuff of different sizes and [14:08] get their opinions on why they promote [14:11] this stuff and how they can possibly [14:13] justify it I I don't think people should [14:15] gamble honestly on the sites it [14:16] shouldn't gamble at all um but I enjoy [14:20] doing it so it's what I do if that makes [14:23] any sense I don't know no no no that [14:25] part that part of it makes sense that [14:28] the part where you want to do it so you [14:29] continue to do it that makes sense but [14:32] let's say I'm like I don't think smoking [14:35] is good for you but I'm I like smoking [14:37] it makes sense that I would smoke it [14:39] doesn't make sense that I would get like [14:42] go promote it to to get people smoke [14:45] yeah no I no I definitely understand [14:49] that perspective too [14:51] um and I like yeah it's it's it's a very [14:54] good argument and it's like you can't [14:56] really argue against it right it's just [14:58] it's not a good thing uh but it's [15:00] something that I still enjoy doing and [15:02] so I'm going to continue to do it is it [15:04] just too much money that's an acceptable [15:06] answer it's just too much money to turn [15:08] down um I'd say in the beginning it [15:11] probably was too much money at this [15:13] point um like it's not about the money [15:17] for me it's just I I really enjoy doing [15:19] it well in the videos I I don't [15:21] sugarcoat I don't uh try to convince [15:24] people that winning or gambling is a way [15:26] or a solid option to flip a quick Buck [15:30] uh even in my wins I preface that this [15:32] is not a this is not a sustainable thing [15:35] so it's not something that I [15:38] necessarily I I I don't know you can [15:40] watch the videos and decide for yourself [15:42] if it feels like promotion but that's [15:44] how I reason it to myself I don't even [15:46] you know use the rewards I don't [15:47] advertise it at all so I don't you know [15:51] the rewards [15:52] thing it's more of like like I said I [15:56] don't advertise it so I don't feel do [15:59] adverti you get paid to advertise it [16:01] right not the reward system no I I don't [16:04] mention the rewards no no no I'm saying [16:06] I'm saying C CSO rooll we're talking [16:08] about the gambling side we both know [16:11] it's not going to be good for people and [16:13] then you're kind of saying why don't [16:14] really promote it I don't really [16:16] advertise it but in a way if you didn't [16:18] promote or advertise it they wouldn't [16:20] pay you Millions dollars yeah I I [16:23] watched your train Rex video and you [16:25] said the same thing you're like the less [16:26] dirtier of the dirt bags so I guess I [16:29] would call myself that and ultimately if [16:31] you watch the video you can decide like [16:35] how less dirty is he really but yeah [16:38] that's my answer you know most people [16:40] are going to unfortunately gamble with [16:43] or without certain streamers right [16:46] obviously it's intended to be like [16:49] a McDonald's ad you see McDonald's ad [16:51] you see a Big Mac you're going to go you [16:53] know I'm craving a big Ma so it's the [16:55] same concept you're saying like oh I'm [16:57] just like kind of promoting McDonald's [16:59] whatever no it's not so it's not like [17:02] promoting McDonald's let's be honest [17:03] gambling is a terrible addiction my [17:05] closest friend has a very very bad [17:08] gambling addiction he'll get [17:10] paid on let's say a Tuesday and by [17:13] Tuesday night or Wednesday morning his [17:15] whole paycheck is gone for two weeks and [17:16] then he has no money and no matter what [17:18] I do to intervene to help that [17:21] individual try to hold his money to help [17:23] him sit there and self-exclude he finds [17:25] ways because it's an addiction it's just [17:27] as bad as any other drug of that [17:29] dopamine Rush yeah the answers were part [17:31] admissions part rationalizations they [17:33] all knew gambling was bad but they'd [17:35] stopped short of actually doing [17:36] something about it because they were [17:37] making money from it even when they knew [17:40] people whose own lives were hurt by it [17:42] so if you know the harm firsthand you've [17:44] seen it in your own life how do you [17:48] justify pedaling that drug as you call [17:51] it it's a uh it's going to happen in my [17:54] opinion right and like there is no [17:56] justification can I say like I'm a drug [17:58] dealer sure you could you know you're [17:59] going to label certain streamers are [18:01] going to be labeled as a drug dealer um [18:04] in essence and that's okay I guess if [18:06] you people are going to view it that way [18:09] I mean I was how do you how do you I [18:11] want to know how you view it up because [18:14] because you said you said it was kind of [18:16] like a drug so I want it is a drug I [18:18] mean it hits the dopamine levels hell I [18:20] I I I get hit dopamine levels if I hit [18:23] big it's oh yeah you know and then that [18:24] becomes a YouTube [18:26] Trick I feel bad I do right I hate to [18:31] hear when people say I've lost money I [18:33] hate it dude I really it it crushes me [18:36] because some people legit do it because [18:38] they're bored and then they lose [18:40] everything they have and it is a [18:41] terrible feeling to hear that right not [18:43] to question their sincerity but I've [18:45] heard all of them say that they hate [18:47] when people get addicted they don't want [18:49] to see anyone hurt but they refuse to [18:51] stop even though they know casinos are [18:53] run on addicts fun fact [18:57] clash.io at admitting he was proud of [18:59] not iding players also admitted that the [19:02] majority of their revenue comes from a [19:04] tiny fraction of their most addicted [19:06] players quote less than 1% of clash [19:09] accounts make up 80% of our Revenue it's [19:12] just an admission from their founder [19:14] it's an Open Secret so these influencers [19:16] can empathize about how horrible [19:18] addiction is but they know that's where [19:19] their paycheck comes from the CEO of [19:21] clash has a profile on Twitter that says [19:23] never gamble The House Always Wins but [19:25] ironically his house is probably from [19:28] people gambling Ling the fact of the [19:29] matter is that these people say with [19:31] their mouth I feel terrible I feel bad [19:33] but when it comes to actually changing [19:34] they never do even when they directly [19:36] scam people they will still find a way [19:38] to rationalize it and this next part is [19:40] pretty dark but for a moment we're going [19:42] to have to go back for a second to the [19:44] pg major tournament and talk about the [19:46] thing I was originally offered a bounty [19:49] to investigate a specific casino that is [19:52] owned by the same group as csgo R but [19:54] this one is called hype drop it's owned [19:57] by monarchs Arch Nemesis hype drop was a [20:00] casino where instead of gambling [20:02] Counter-Strike skins you could gamble [20:03] real world items like real world loot [20:06] boxes for example you could pay for a [20:09] real loot box that would get you [20:11] anything from like a $10 gift card to a [20:14] Lamborghini for example it's just [20:16] gambling with physical items but the [20:18] real Secret Sauce of this website was a [20:20] loyalty program called The Daily cases [20:23] where the more you spent the higher [20:24] level you got the more you'd get these [20:26] daily cases which essentially were free [20:29] money every single day you could go on [20:31] their website and open these daily cases [20:34] and theoretically you'd get free stuff [20:37] free money which if that sounds [20:40] unsustainable it is it was all part of a [20:43] scheme it turns out to make the Danish [20:45] government believe that hype drop was [20:46] not actually gambling I received a [20:49] letter hype drop gave to the Danish [20:51] regulator arguing players could not lose [20:53] money on their site because over time [20:56] the daily cases paid back all the losses [20:59] over roughly 3 years this is one of [21:01] those loopholes we talked about where [21:03] they're going to argue they're not [21:05] actually gambling because you can't lose [21:08] now of course I asked typ drop about [21:10] this and initially they denied ever [21:12] sending this letter eventually I showed [21:14] them that I had their document and they [21:16] finally confessed saying they did do it [21:18] on one occasion but denied trying to [21:21] pass it off as an investment they then [21:23] quickly Scurry away saying this is our [21:26] last comment I bet it is because they [21:29] got caught making bad faith arguments to [21:31] the Danish government this type of [21:33] loophole is why in their promotional [21:36] material hype drop said things like yes [21:38] you'll always make at least your money [21:40] back and quote we offer return on what [21:42] you invest through our daily reward [21:45] system and quote it's a win-win [21:47] situation every time now it only takes a [21:50] few moments to realize that offering [21:51] jackpots and money back to losers isn't [21:55] going to work it has to be a scam which [21:56] is why many people like Monarch called [21:59] this thing an unsustainable Ponzi scheme [22:02] and I can't believe I'm saying this but [22:05] he's right on March 27th 2024 Killian [22:09] the owner announced that he was shutting [22:11] down the site effectively rug pulling [22:13] his customers who were all relying on [22:16] these daily cases to make their losses [22:18] back this is part of what monarchs paid [22:20] goons were yelling about at the pgl [22:23] majors by removing their daily cases [22:25] hype drop in my opinion stole from their [22:27] users and effectively revealed their [22:30] legal loophole to be a lie now with that [22:32] all understood let's Circle back to this [22:35] guy juicy a gambling streamer who we [22:37] heard from earlier he was easily one of [22:39] the biggest promoters of hype drop and I [22:40] wanted to know given that he has widely [22:42] promoted a scam what was he going to do [22:45] to make things right so let's talk about [22:49] um hyp drop at this point this has been [22:52] kind of what precipitated the pgl majors [22:55] according to Monarch he says I had to [22:57] protest HP drop it was a Ponzi scheme [23:00] that collapsed and CS go rolls next now [23:03] when I was looking up hype drop you were [23:05] one of the people who was promoting it [23:07] like one of the bigger YouTubers I saw [23:09] maybe the biggest what's your take on [23:11] promoting this stuff where's your [23:13] ethical line for what you will take what [23:16] you won't take [23:17] on yeah so to my understanding I had [23:21] never worked with the a gambling site [23:24] that had rewards that function like a [23:26] Ponzi scheme you know so when I was [23:29] playing on it I'm not promoting the [23:31] rewards you know I'm not like this is [23:32] the most rewarding IRL gambling site so [23:36] I was just playing with the product [23:38] itself and you know making content [23:40] around that um so with obviously it's [23:44] it's really annoying and [ __ ] when [23:46] the rewards get first off cut down and [23:49] then second off now there is no reward [23:51] offering in the sites going away like [23:54] I'm obviously very upset not just for my [23:58] own intent but also mainly for the [24:00] people who especially if people put [24:02] money into hyp drop thinking of it like [24:05] a good monetary investment versus like [24:07] I'm just gambling you know I'm pretty [24:10] sure from my understanding that wasn't [24:11] like a advertised thing at least they [24:13] weren't advertising they weren't saying [24:15] hey you got to tell them about this [24:17] great investment option I think that was [24:20] more of a a legal loophole that they [24:22] were you know trying to operate he's [24:26] just lying about some of this he says he [24:27] didn't adver I his daily cases but I [24:29] think he didn't think I'd watch his [24:31] videos because he definitely did daily [24:33] reminder claim your daily cases they [24:34] free monies coach juicy will get you [24:36] three free cases so might as well I mean [24:39] my daily cases used to pay a filthy [24:41] amount of money it was a full-time [24:42] income just claiming them claim this [24:44] every day dude we're making a full-time [24:45] salary every month yeah he calls the [24:48] daily cases basically a full-time salary [24:51] but I thought surely after seeing that [24:53] that hype drop scammed people he would [24:55] cancel his sponsorship with the same [24:57] company like it's the sister Casino csgo [25:00] role right he has to stop that now that [25:03] he's scammed his audience he did cancel [25:05] it right so let me ask you does that [25:08] mean you're no longer going to work with [25:10] csgo rooll since they're run by the same [25:14] people uh well I've already promoted the [25:16] site and I already have fans who use the [25:18] site and the I I don't think the reward [25:21] offering there is going to change but [25:25] yeah I mean it's unfortunate that I [25:28] think you can see the logic of no one [25:31] thought hype drop was going to rug [25:34] people from these cases these daily [25:35] rewards and if you are regretful [25:38] wouldn't that turn into some kind of [25:40] action on your part to like change who [25:41] you're working [25:43] with yeah I understand that completely [25:46] but I feel like Counter-Strike sites [25:49] aren't there to stay forever in the [25:51] first place I don't think anyone's [25:53] expecting them to stay forever and there [25:55] really isn't many great options so yeah [25:57] maybe it's up of me that I continue to [25:59] do so absolutely but uh it really is one [26:02] of the better options on the market [26:04] right now and there's ton of dogit on [26:07] the market so yeah and there it is [26:12] absolutely he doesn't want to change [26:14] absolutely he's not going to stop what [26:15] he's doing at the end of the day past [26:18] all the rationalizations that's what it [26:19] comes down to it doesn't matter what you [26:21] show them what you prove to them they're [26:23] making too much money and that is the [26:26] part that I was struggling to like [26:28] really get from these people is they [26:30] would always say Like I Do It For the [26:31] Love of gambling man I would do it if [26:33] nobody paid me of course they always do [26:36] it getting paid um but this is the [26:38] single biggest cope of gambling [26:39] streamers in fact even Grim told me this [26:42] who we spoke to earlier about getting [26:43] harassed luckily for me though his tax [26:46] records are public so I knew that he was [26:48] actually making a few million dollars a [26:51] year and at a few million reasons to lie [26:53] about why he was doing what he did so I [26:55] decided to ask him if maybe the the [26:58] money did play a role somebody reached [27:00] out to me they said hey I found Grim's [27:03] business he made $5 million last year is [27:06] that true and does that undermine what [27:08] you said about that it's not about the [27:11] money um uh yeah no that is true uh like [27:16] what one of the I guess Downs with nor [27:17] is everything's public if they know my [27:19] company name even just my name they they [27:21] Google around they find it so like [27:23] everything that I make is uh is public [27:25] and yeah you could say that the argument [27:27] is obviously hypocritical because like I [27:29] made a lot of money but like I don't do [27:31] it because I make a lot of money I'd [27:33] still do it if I didn't make a lot of [27:34] money and like even if I wasn't paid I [27:36] would still do it when I had excess [27:38] money to do it cuz I like doing it and [27:40] it might like sound like a lie but [27:42] that's how I started it and that's how I [27:44] was wanted to [27:45] continue it sounds like the $5 million [27:47] might have something to do with it it [27:49] just just just but that's fine I mean [27:51] yeah no I mean like I said I I 100% [27:54] understand what people would think like [27:55] oh no it's only because of the money but [27:57] like I know myself that it isn't only [28:00] because of the money but it's obviously [28:01] great don't get me wrong how much did [28:03] you make this [28:04] year I'd rather not say but I could say [28:07] it's a it's a [28:08] lot come on juicy tell us tell us [28:14] look I so I actually don't know the [28:16] exact answer myself but I can tell you [28:18] it's going to be right around Grim's [28:19] number which I know he told you already [28:22] Grims 5 million yeah and then I got to [28:24] pay a stupid tax rate on that but it's [28:28] probably around there both made about $5 [28:31] million last year so it's kind of [28:34] obvious why they're not going to stop [28:35] based on just a moral argument and I [28:37] began to wonder like how many of these [28:40] influencers take these deals because [28:42] they are so profitable well luckily [28:44] thanks to the hard work of Jeff who we [28:46] mentioned earlier whose documentary you [28:47] should definitely go watch I found out [28:49] it's almost everyone this is at to 300 [28:51] csgo streamers since the beginning of [28:53] this year ranked by watch time of 300 [28:56] 226 are currently sponsored by at least [29:00] one of them some have up to five we are [29:02] looking at [29:04] 75% [29:05] 75% it's insane Counterstrike gambling [29:09] is basically funding over half of the [29:12] scene with these ridiculous paychecks [29:14] and I began to wonder not about the [29:16] people who said yes but the people who [29:17] said no they're the minority I wanted to [29:19] know for the people who said no how much [29:22] were they offered and why didn't they [29:24] take [29:26] it this is something [29:28] I think about a lot [29:31] cuz there have even been moments in time [29:35] where I've been offered $300,000 for a [29:38] month of [29:39] gambling $55,000 an hour that could [29:43] change my life that could retire my mom [29:46] that [29:47] could alter my family's lineage [29:51] but I I keep turning it [29:54] down that was when I was an even small [29:58] smaller streamer than now that's [30:02] crazy [30:03] yeah one of the things I've been [30:05] thinking a lot about is like how to [30:07] change this you know if even if well [30:10] look if what does even change look like [30:11] right that's part of what I'm thinking [30:13] about is like what does even change look [30:14] like for this [30:16] industry and one thing that I came to is [30:19] like the incentives have to change [30:21] because they're so out of whack the [30:23] second you allow gambling sponsorships [30:27] and streamers to like get sponsorship [30:30] deals how are you going to stop someone [30:32] from taking that amount of money you're [30:35] a good person so you just don't want to [30:38] do it that's your personal line but it's [30:41] I think it's hard for just even somebody [30:43] who's a good person to say no you know [30:46] it's only because you know what it would [30:47] do to people but that is such a crazy [30:51] amount of money you know this interview [30:54] almost ruined me on this story I began [30:56] to wonder if change was even possible [30:59] when money like this is in the field for [31:02] play like the casinos aren't going to [31:03] regulate themselves because they lose [31:05] customers and there's so much money at [31:06] stake most influencers aren't going to [31:08] say no because there's so much money at [31:10] stake and they could change their life [31:12] and their family's lives by taking these [31:14] deals the more I looked into it you [31:16] can't expect all the people to be immune [31:20] from this influence all at the same time [31:22] which is the only way to make change it [31:24] wasn't just the influencers or casinos [31:26] either even Esports the most [31:28] professional supposedly side of the game [31:31] was flooded with gambling almost every [31:34] professional team had a gambling sponsor [31:36] for example FaZe has roll bit pgl major [31:39] was sponsored by 1X bet G2 was sponsored [31:42] by csgo roll and this creates the same [31:45] problem that it created with the [31:46] influencers if a sponsor is offering you [31:49] buckets of money it becomes really hard [31:51] not to take because if you don't take it [31:53] your competitor will in fact one e [31:56] Sports owner argued the entire ecosystem [31:59] in Counterstrike especially in the lower [32:01] leagues is basically funded by the [32:03] gambling industry and gambling addicts [32:06] so I called him to understand more of [32:08] how this works can you walk me [32:11] through how gambling functions in the [32:14] Esports economy the issue is that or the [32:17] issue I guess at hand that you're [32:19] talking about is that this activity is a [32:21] NE by more controversial sponsors in in [32:23] gambling uh and skin rolling sites um if [32:27] those spons weren't permitted then the [32:29] tier 2 and Beyond scene NCS specifically [32:31] would likely wither or die or or at the [32:33] very least constrict to a very large [32:35] degree so that's what I meant by my [32:37] tweet uh when that you should thank your [32:39] local betting crackhead in twitch chat [32:42] uh if you're a fan of tier 2 Cs and [32:45] Beyond then the reason you're watching [32:48] that team play is probably because of [32:49] that they're better um to note uh this [32:53] is also true of a lot of ORS [32:56] profitability so the value that [32:57] traditional sponsors bring in for a tier [33:00] 2 or even more you know with with G2 and [33:03] roll bit for example the value that a [33:04] traditional sponsor brings in versus a [33:06] gamble sponsor is like 15 or 20% of the [33:08] value so you don't really turn that down [33:11] as an Old owner unless you've got very [33:13] specific moral crims or disagree with [33:15] gambling on a personal L but does this [33:18] inflate the economy where if you're not [33:20] taking a gambling sponsorship you're [33:22] almost at a disadvantage because your [33:24] economics and what you're able to play [33:26] players and attract Talent is much less [33:29] than somebody who for example has a [33:31] gambling deal and is way making way more [33:33] money than you yeah to would agree [33:35] that's true I think um very very few [33:37] organizations are able to do it without [33:39] gamber largely if you don't have gamber [33:41] you're almost certainly going to be [33:43] untable you heard it there you almost [33:46] can't compete at the highest level [33:48] without a gambling sponsor because they [33:50] pay so much more than everyone else and [33:53] if everyone else is doing it they will [33:56] have more money to spend on on a team [33:58] than you and get better players and [34:01] therefore likely beat you there's just [34:03] no more profitable sponsor to turn to [34:07] and so a lot of people actually take the [34:10] money so even if that sponsor is a site [34:13] that allows miners to play with no ID [34:16] who cares just slap an 18 plus sticker [34:18] in your ad for them and get plausible [34:21] deniability that's what G2 did when [34:23] announcing their csgo rooll sponsorship [34:26] a depressing fact about this video is [34:27] the star of it a guy named Mony turned [34:30] 18 only days before they announced the [34:33] sponsorship which means in the video it [34:35] was filmed when he was 17 he was [34:39] underage in their Casino supposedly 18 [34:42] plus and no one cared a perfect metaphor [34:45] for this entire industry it's all Optics [34:48] I have to tell you by the way the exact [34:49] day I announced I was investigating [34:51] Counter-Strike gambling csgo roll did [34:54] announce for the first time that they [34:55] were going to be asking all users to [34:57] prove that they're 18 before playing [34:59] whether or not it's coincidence they [35:01] announced it same day I don't know take [35:04] it for what it is maybe it's a token [35:06] gesture they'll roll back or maybe it's [35:08] a sudden change of heart for the Youth I [35:10] don't know either way the point I'm [35:12] making is that for many people and [35:14] professional teams the choice to take a [35:16] gambling sponsorship is like the choice [35:18] for peeds in the Olympics or steroids in [35:22] the [35:22] WWE you can say no but if everyone else [35:26] is using them and getting ahead you [35:29] choosing not to for ethical reasons will [35:31] get you left behind and your peers will [35:34] become more successful than you it's a [35:36] depressing cycle that has me flashing [35:38] back to the csgo wild days several years [35:41] ago and realizing we're right where we [35:43] started csgo wild in 2016 was a gambling [35:46] website secretly owned slightly disputed [35:49] by fazeclan and according to faze Banks [35:52] his motivation to do that was pretty [35:55] simple my motivation for doing it [35:57] actually was at the at the time we [35:58] weren't making enough money to buy a CS [35:59] Go Team all in the uh the Venture was [36:02] going to cost us like a million dollars [36:03] and we definitely did not have anything [36:06] close to that so my brain like I just we [36:08] got to finesse it we got to figure out [36:09] how to make the money to buy this team [36:11] now because in the next six months year [36:13] this is going to this team's going to be [36:15] worth like four or5 million and we need [36:17] we we're not going to be able to get [36:19] into this game which we which in our [36:21] heads we need it in this game yeah when [36:23] you hear it it sounds crazy sounds like [36:24] a cope but his plan actually worked FaZe [36:27] Got Away With It FaZe Clan has a [36:30] Counter-Strike team that won second [36:32] place in the infamous pgl major all [36:34] these years after csgo wild it's alive [36:37] and well and still funded by the way by [36:40] gambling just by a different gambling [36:43] website now it's roll bit it's [36:45] reportedly a multi-million dollar deal [36:48] now look I know seeing this is all very [36:50] depressing but we've actually learned [36:53] some really valuable things firstly we [36:55] can't fix this at the individual level [36:58] of influencers Esports teams or even [37:01] casinos doxing people harassing them [37:04] doesn't fix it or the underlying [37:06] problems it's a deep systemic problem of [37:09] incentives of course acknowledging that [37:13] also doesn't absolve individuals I [37:15] wouldn't dare say it's okay for juicy to [37:17] do what he does where people have been [37:19] scammed and he continues to work with [37:22] the same parent company that said if he [37:24] stopped it wouldn't change things [37:26] suddenly someone one would take his [37:28] place so if we're serious about trying [37:30] to solve this problem we have to look [37:32] farther up the food chain than [37:34] influencers even then casinos even then [37:37] Esports leaks we have to zoom out and [37:40] see the root [37:49] cause valve definitely does have [37:51] underage gambling problem they really [37:54] don't have an incentive to stop it [37:56] underage [37:58] middle age overage however you want to [38:00] slice it I think they have all the [38:03] responsibility I mean you could pass me [38:05] some of that if you want but ultimately [38:07] they're the Kingpin reaping in all of [38:09] the money or majority of the money and [38:11] there's a reason why they haven't killed [38:13] it yet they've possessed the power for [38:15] all these years but they allow it to go [38:18] and I feel like they do the bare minimum [38:19] Crackdown to allow it to keep operating [38:45] [Music] [38:50] [Music] [38:54] sh [38:57] [Music]